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Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2005 17:19:09 +1000
From: Wesley Bruce <wesleybruce iinet.net.au>
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Terry Blanton wrote:

>This report was issued late last year.  It's an accessment of what would have happened to NOLA had hurricane Ivan hit.  Shirley hit it right on and made recommendations.  She also forecast 40 to 60,000 dead.  
>
>Now they are admitting that thousands could be dead.  Whispers I'm hearing inside the engineering community is 5,000 to 50,000 throughout the area affected.  
>
>Ms. Laske worked at the University of New Orleans.  I hope she made it out.
>
>http://www.colorado.edu/hazards/o/nov04/nov04c.html
>
>  
>
I suspect she would be quick to evacuate. But the University of New 
Orleans library may be a many tonnes of pulp today. The university of 
Melbourne Australia lost 2 million dollars worth of scientific journals, 
historic papers and field reports when a water main burst in the street 
out side its basement. Imagine what the University of New Orleans just 
lost! And how many scientists would be still there hauling books 
upstairs when the levy went just down the street?

Given that ~300 000 stayed and the evacuations were not mandatory 
further east I'd expect big casulty numbers.
By the way, which part of Mandatory Evacuation did not apply the that 
Jail! Hundreds of prisoners and guards left stranded. They will be suing 
the state for years to come.

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Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 02:45:05 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Cold Electricity
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Pat Bailey, PhD electrical engineering, of the INE, 
patrickgbailey sbcglobal.net  says that he knows of an investor who 
is interested in cold electricity.

Pat sent me a .doc file with more information on the subject. If any 
of you want to read it, let me know.

I have previously expressed my skepticism with Peter Linderman's book 
on the subject. However, I will happily recant everything if someone 
produces a working cold electricity machine.
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<!doctype html public "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<html><head><style type="text/css"><!--
blockquote, dl, ul, ol, li { padding-top: 0 ; padding-bottom: 0 }
 --></style><title>Cold Electricity</title></head><body>
<div>Pat Bailey, PhD electrical engineering, of the INE,<font
face="Verdana" size="-2" color="#000000">
patrickgbailey sbcglobal.net&nbsp;</font> says that he knows of an
investor who is interested in cold electricity.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Pat sent me a .doc file with more information on the subject. If
any of you want to read it, let me know.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>I have previously expressed my skepticism with Peter Linderman's
book on the subject. However, I will happily recant everything if
someone produces a working cold electricity machine.</div>
</body>
</html>
--============_-1086561767==_ma============--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep  1 01:42:33 2005
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Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2005 18:41:33 +1000
From: Wesley Bruce <wesleybruce iinet.net.au>
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Subject: nola and wet energy technology
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When we invent our colf fusion reactors, ZPE generators, searl 
generators, or whatever. Please remember New Orleans and make sure all 
makes and models of new energy powerplants are water and mud proof. It's 
not that hard to design water proof powerplants if we think it through 
from the start. Water proof induction based power plugs are already 
available.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep  1 02:43:20 2005
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
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Subject: Re: Compressed Natural Gas CNG to Replace Gasoline
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Our local utility is raising the price of natural gas to $0.91 per therm (100,000 BTU)
plus other costs. It still beats $3.00/gallon (1.25 therm/gallon gasoline).

I can foresee local CNG "gas stations" springing up where either biomass-derived methane, landfill gas wells or new wells are abundant.

This compressor manufacturer, located in northwestern Pennsylvania is in
the heart of existing shallow gas well country.

http://www.hydropac.com/HTML/lilcritter.html

Hydro-Pac Inc. • P.O. Box 921 • 7470 Market Road • Fairview PA 16415 USA
Toll Free: 800-394-1511 • E-Mail: info hydropac.com
Local Phone: 814-474-1511 • Fax: 814-474-3421

Li'l CRITTERTM High-Pressure Gas Compressors were designed by Hydro-Pac to offer big compressor reliability and service life in smaller machines 
These tough "little brothers" of Hydro-Pac's FLEXI-POWERTM compressors are well suited for laboratory and production applications. They are offered in sizes of 3, 5 and 7.5 hp for pressures to 45,000 psi.
Li'l CRITTERTM compressors are available for a variety of industrial gases, and are offered as single or two-stage units.
Frederick
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<HTML style="FONT-SIZE: x-small; FONT-FAMILY: MS Sans Serif"><HEAD>
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<P>
<DIV>Our local utility is raising the price of natural gas to $0.91 per therm (100,000 BTU)</DIV>
<DIV>plus other costs. It still beats $3.00/gallon (1.25 therm/gallon gasoline).</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>I can foresee local CNG "gas stations" springing up where either biomass-derived methane, landfill gas wells or new wells&nbsp;are abundant.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>This compressor manufacturer, located in northwestern Pennsylvania is in</DIV>
<DIV>the heart of existing shallow gas well country.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://www.hydropac.com/HTML/lilcritter.html">http://www.hydropac.com/HTML/lilcritter.html</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=body>Hydro-Pac Inc. • P.O. Box 921 • 7470 Market Road • Fairview PA 16415 USA</P>
<P class=body>Toll Free: 800-394-1511 • E-Mail: <A href="mailto:info hydropac.com,tomc@hydropac.com, mswanson@hydropac.com">info@hydropac.com</A></P>
<P class=body>Local Phone: 814-474-1511 • Fax: 814-474-3421</P></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><STRONG>Li'l CRITTER<SUP>TM</SUP> High-Pressure Gas Compressors</STRONG> were designed by Hydro-Pac to offer big compressor reliability and service life in smaller machines 
<P class=body>These tough "little brothers" of Hydro-Pac's FLEXI-POWER<SUP>TM</SUP> compressors are well suited for laboratory and production applications. They are offered in sizes of 3, 5 and 7.5 hp for pressures to 45,000 psi.</P>
<P class=body>Li'l CRITTER<SUP>TM</SUP> compressors are available for a variety of industrial gases, and are offered as single or two-stage units.</P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>Frederick</DIV></DIV>
<P></P></BODY></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep  1 03:48:06 2005
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From: "John Coviello" <johnwc patmedia.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Subject: Re: Gasoline panic has begun in Atlanta
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BlankFrom: RC Macaulay=20
  To: vortex-l eskimo.com=20
  Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 11:28 PM
  Subject: Re: Gasoline panic has begun in Atlanta


  Kyle wrote..
   I am a full time
  Class A mechanic in the nearly jobless Buffalo New York area, bringing =
home
  a little over $12,000/yr. That, to say the least, sucks. Especially =
here ..


  Kyle , 12k is below the welfare rate. You would be better off moving =
back to ole Miss and get a job rebuilding gambling casinos where you can =
ride a bike to work.

  Richard

  =
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
------------------

  Not a bad idea.  The cost of living in Miss. is about half of New York =
and there will be a lot of work available rebuilding the Gulf Coast.  I =
read that there is an accute shortage of construction workers along the =
Florida Gulf Coast that is hampering rebuiling efforts.  Anyone who =
knows a trade that involves rebuilding buildings has all the work they =
want. =20

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style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3Dwalhalla cvtv.net href=3D"mailto:walhalla@cvtv.net">RC =
Macaulay</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dvortex-l eskimo.com=20
  href=3D"mailto:vortex-l eskimo.com">vortex-l@eskimo.com</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, August 31, =
2005 11:28=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Gasoline panic has =
begun in=20
  Atlanta</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV>Kyle wrote..</DIV>
  <P>&nbsp;I am a full time<BR>Class A mechanic in the nearly jobless =
Buffalo=20
  New York area, bringing home<BR>a little over $12,000/yr. That, to say =
the=20
  least, sucks. Especially here ..<BR></P>
  <P>Kyle , 12k is below the welfare rate. You would be better off =
moving back=20
  to ole Miss and get a job rebuilding gambling casinos where you can =
ride a=20
  bike to work.</P>
  <P>Richard</P>
  =
<P>----------------------------------------------------------------------=
---------------------</P>
  <P>Not a bad idea.&nbsp; The cost of living in Miss. is about half of =
New York=20
  and there will be a lot of work available rebuilding the Gulf =
Coast.&nbsp; I=20
  read that there is an accute shortage of construction workers along =
the=20
  Florida Gulf Coast that is hampering rebuiling efforts.&nbsp; Anyone =
who knows=20
  a trade that involves&nbsp;rebuilding buildings has all the work they=20
  want.&nbsp; </P></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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International Association for Natural Gas Vehicles ( IANGV)  Forum.

http://www.iangv.org/forum/index.php?s=8b37896dcc8d9698f05f0431f6868c0b&showtopic=144&st=0&#entry335

FJS
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<P>
<DIV>International Association for Natural Gas Vehicles ( IANGV)&nbsp; Forum.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://www.iangv.org/forum/index.php?s=8b37896dcc8d9698f05f0431f6868c0b&amp;showtopic=144&amp;st=0&amp;#entry335">http://www.iangv.org/forum/index.php?s=8b37896dcc8d9698f05f0431f6868c0b&amp;showtopic=144&amp;st=0&amp;#entry335</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>FJS</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<P></P></BODY></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep  1 04:56:18 2005
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Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 04:55:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: Christopher Arnold <pulsed_ignition yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Cold Electricity
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Easy - just ask Lindemann to produce one.
 
CJ Arnold

thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com> wrote:
Pat Bailey, PhD electrical engineering, of the INE, patrickgbailey sbcglobal.net  says that he knows of an investor who is interested in cold electricity.


Pat sent me a .doc file with more information on the subject. If any of you want to read it, let me know.


I have previously expressed my skepticism with Peter Linderman's book on the subject. However, I will happily recant everything if someone produces a working cold electricity machine.

		
---------------------------------
 Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page 
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<DIV>Easy - just ask Lindemann to produce one.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>CJ Arnold<BR><BR><B><I>thomas malloy &lt;temalloy metro.lakes.com&gt;</I></B> wrote:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">
<STYLE type=text/css><!--
blockquote, dl, ul, ol, li { padding-top: 0 ; padding-bottom: 0 }
 --></STYLE>

<DIV>Pat Bailey, PhD electrical engineering, of the INE,<FONT face=Verdana color=#000000 size=-2> patrickgbailey sbcglobal.net&nbsp;</FONT> says that he knows of an investor who is interested in cold electricity.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Pat sent me a .doc file with more information on the subject. If any of you want to read it, let me know.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>I have previously expressed my skepticism with Peter Linderman's book on the subject. However, I will happily recant everything if someone produces a working cold electricity machine.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><p>
		<hr size=1> <a href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=34442/*http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs">Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page </a>
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From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
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Subject: Octane
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 9:44:15 -0400
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Written during my staff meeting this morning:

Octane

(to the tune of “Cocaine” with apologies to Eric Clapton and JJ Cale)

If you wanna go out you’ve got to take her out, octane.
Nawlins has drowned, we gotta slow down, octane.
I must buy, I must buy, I must buy, octane.

Gas lines are new, open stations are few, octane.
When the gauge says “none”, you go for a loan, octane.
It’s too high, it’s too high, it’s too high, octane.

When your money is gone and you wanna ride on, octane.
Put your case on your back, take your bike off the rack, octane.
We all cry, we all cry, we all cry, “Octane!”

I must buy, it’s too high, we all cry, “Octane!”


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John

> I just got wind from an outside source that BLP and Carrier 
> Corporation.....

Yup, a hydrino-assisted heat pump in your home, coming 
soon....They must have finally gotten the Thermacore patent 
problems worked out.

..... those guys at Carrier are no boobs:
http://www.comfortchoice.carrier.com/details/0,,CLI1_DIV28_ETI179,00.html 

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	Just as a comment, here in Brasil we can buy cars that runs on gasoline, 
alcohol or natural gas. Volkswagen, General Motors and Fiat are producing them.
	They call those cars "Flex-Power" engines.
	You can fuel the tank with gasoline and/or alcohol and the electronics will 
make the necessary adjustments to the engine.
	You can have an additional natural gas tank in the trunk that can be used 
flipping a switch on the console.

	Mark Jordan

On 1 Sep 2005 at 5:02, Frederick Sparber wrote:

> 
> International Association for Natural Gas Vehicles ( IANGV) 
> Forum.
> 
> http://www.iangv.org/forum/index.php?s=8b37896dcc8d9698f05f0
> 431f6868c0b&showtopic=144&st=0&#entry335
> 
> FJS
> 
> 
> 



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From: OrionWorks <orionworks charter.net>
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> From: Jones Beene 
...
> 
> Yup, a hydrino-assisted heat pump in your home, coming 
> soon....They must have finally gotten the Thermacore
> patent problems worked out.
> 
> ..... those guys at Carrier are no boobs:
> http://www.comfortchoice.carrier.com/details/0,,CLI1_DIV28_ETI 179,00.html 

With all the appropriate cautionary disclaimers in place, this is probably good news.

Would anyone dare to predict when this latest undertaking might eventually translate into a public announcement?

I keep thinking next year, 2006, will be the one that goes down in the history books when brave new proven alternative sources of energy (i.e. CF, BLP, ZPE) might finally surface as something more substantial than just a pipe dream.

Maybe sometime next year TIME magazine will display the following front cover

***************************
*        T  I  M  E       *
*                         *
*     THE NEW ENERGY      *
*                         *
*    What Does it Mean    *
*        for You          *
*          and            *
*     for the World       *
*                         *
*                         *
*                         *
*-------------------------*
* Special Report on the   *
* Startling Consequences, *
* by Jed Rothwell, p78-85 *
***************************

:-)

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

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From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
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> From: "Jones Beene"

> Yup, a hydrino-assisted heat pump in your home, coming 
> soon....They must have finally gotten the Thermacore patent 
> problems worked out.
> 
> ..... those guys at Carrier are no boobs:
> http://www.comfortchoice.carrier.com/details/0,,CLI1_DIV28_ETI179,00.html 

If one were going to do some speculative investing, one would purchase UTX (United Technologies utc.com).  They are currently trading at $50.

A look at their holdings seems to indicate they would be a good investment even if the rumor of BLP and Carrier is only a rumor.  However, with revenues of $37B, don't expect to see your investment double overnight.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep  1 08:28:39 2005
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Satellite imagery:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/facility/new-orleans-imagery.htm

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> From: Jones Beene 

...

> Yup, a hydrino-assisted heat pump in your home, coming 
> soon....They must have finally gotten the Thermacore
> patent problems worked out.

Jones,

Another thought ran through my noggin...

Assuming there is some truth to this rumor it really brings to bare, at least from my point of view, how the need to protect intellectual property and their associated patents has probably delayed the introduction of desperately needed alternative sources of energy into the mainstream - perhaps by years if not decades.

I'm also reminded of the legal hassles BLP has had to endure when they couldn't get a number of key processes patented because the technology they were trying to protect was based on theories the physics community flatly claimed was impossible, and as such, the patent office holding up the party line rejected them as well.

I can't help but think someone is eventually going to write a controversial book on these issues - how the introduction of beneficial inventions were almost criminally delayed from pubic introduction primarily due to legal hassles and intellectual bigotry.

I don't claim to have a better solution or how these matters could be better handled. I'll leave it to those who are in positions to either help or hinder the process - like an attorney!

Mr. Beene, what say you on this topic?

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep  1 08:48:47 2005
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No, UTX probably would NOT be a great investment (considering the time =
frame still necessary to get a new product ot market).... unless, that =
is, we get into another war, soon.

As I undersatnd it, the stock has already been run way up on the =
strength of UT's military esp. helicopter division (Sikorsky) which =
manufactures the enormously expensive and deadly Comanche and Black Hawk =
helicopters - the latter made famous from the US debacle in Somalia... =
and elsehwere. This military business will die off somehwat IF we do =
indeed leave the Middle East soon... and those $10s of billions in =
future black-ops-bucks, being lost in the next few years, would offset =
any heat pump gains for some time to come... but who knows that another =
little "conflict" is not just what the petrocracy needs to stay in power =
for 8 more dreadful years.

Oops.... I think I hear a faint, almost silent hum over the redwoods.... =
and yes, I see a fuzzy object in the sky just now....

MIB, or not enough black java....?

Jones


----- Original Message -----=20
From: "Terry Blanton"=20

>> From: "Jones Beene"
>=20
>> Yup, a hydrino-assisted heat pump in your home, coming=20
>> soon....They must have finally gotten the Thermacore patent=20
>> problems worked out.
>>=20
>> ..... those guys at Carrier are no boobs:
>> =
http://www.comfortchoice.carrier.com/details/0,,CLI1_DIV28_ETI179,00.html=
=20
>=20
> If one were going to do some speculative investing, one would purchase =
UTX (United Technologies utc.com).  They are currently trading at $50.
>=20
> A look at their holdings seems to indicate they would be a good =
investment even if the rumor of BLP and Carrier is only a rumor.  =
However, with revenues of $37B, don't expect to see your investment =
double overnight.
>
------=_NextPart_000_007E_01C5AED1.D0040750
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2722" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff background=3D"">
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>No,&nbsp;UTX probably would NOT be a =
great=20
investment (considering the time frame still necessary to get a new =
product ot=20
market).... unless, that is,&nbsp;we get into another war, =
soon.<BR><BR>As I=20
undersatnd it, the stock has already been run way up on the strength of =
UT=92s=20
military esp. helicopter division (Sikorsky) which manufactures the =
enormously=20
expensive and deadly Comanche and Black Hawk helicopters =96 the latter =
made=20
famous from the US debacle in Somalia... and elsehwere. This=20
military&nbsp;business will die off somehwat IF we do indeed leave the =
Middle=20
East soon... and those $10s of billions in future black-ops-bucks, being =
lost in=20
the next few years,&nbsp;would offset any heat pump gains for some time =
to=20
come... but who knows that another little "conflict" is not just what =
the=20
petrocracy needs to stay in power for 8 more dreadful =
years.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Oops.... I think I hear a faint, almost =

silent&nbsp;hum over the redwoods.... and yes, I&nbsp;see a fuzzy object =
in the=20
sky just now....</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>MIB, or not enough black =
java....?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Jones</DIV>
<DIV><BR><BR>----- Original Message ----- <BR>From: "Terry Blanton"=20
<BR><BR>&gt;&gt; From: "Jones Beene"<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt; Yup, a=20
hydrino-assisted heat pump in your home, coming <BR>&gt;&gt; =
soon....They must=20
have finally gotten the Thermacore patent <BR>&gt;&gt; problems worked=20
out.<BR>&gt;&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt; ..... those guys at Carrier are no=20
boobs:<BR>&gt;&gt;=20
http://www.comfortchoice.carrier.com/details/0,,CLI1_DIV28_ETI179,00.html=
=20
<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; If one were going to do some speculative investing, =
one would=20
purchase UTX (United Technologies utc.com).&nbsp; They are currently =
trading at=20
$50.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; A look at their holdings seems to indicate they =
would be a=20
good investment even if the rumor of BLP and Carrier is only a =
rumor.&nbsp;=20
However, with revenues of $37B, don't expect to see your investment =
double=20
overnight.<BR>&gt;</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_007E_01C5AED1.D0040750--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep  1 13:10:27 2005
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: OFF TOPIC Chimpanzee genome decoded
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Just like us, almost. See:

http://www.wired.com/news/medtech/0,1286,68706,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_10

QUOTE:

"[Human and chimp] DNA remains highly similar -- about 96 percent to almost 
99 percent identical, depending on how the comparison is made.

Still, the number of genetic differences between a human and a chimp is 
about 10 times more than between any two humans, the federal genome 
institute says. It's the differences -- some 40 million -- that attract the 
attention of scientists."


The article does not mention this, but since the human genome project began 
the technology for decoding DNA has improved tremendously. Speed has 
increased and the cost has dropped by orders of magnitude, and the process 
is much more automated. This is a tremendous boon to biology. The genomes 
for many different species are now being decoded.

Someday, in the distant future, it may be possible to decode every 
individual person's entire genome. The results may be fascinating, but I 
fear they may lead to all kinds of predictions about their personality, 
health, longevity, criminal proclivities and who-knows-what else.

- Jed


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Subject: Re: Octane
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Oh my dear Lord!  ROFL.

Never such a productive staff meeting.

s

At 06:44 AM 9/1/2005, you wrote:
>Written during my staff meeting this morning:
>
>Octane
>
>(to the tune of "Cocaine" with apologies to Eric Clapton and JJ Cale)
>
>If you wanna go out you've got to take her out, octane.
>Nawlins has drowned, we gotta slow down, octane.
>I must buy, I must buy, I must buy, octane.
>
>Gas lines are new, open stations are few, octane.
>When the gauge says "none", you go for a loan, octane.
>It's too high, it's too high, it's too high, octane.
>
>When your money is gone and you wanna ride on, octane.
>Put your case on your back, take your bike off the rack, octane.
>We all cry, we all cry, we all cry, "Octane!"
>
>I must buy, it's too high, we all cry, "Octane!"

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep  1 13:58:32 2005
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All is quiet in Atlanta today. I see no gas lines. The price settled at 
$3.15 per gallon, after the governor declared a "gasoline price state of 
emergency" yesterday evening.

I do not understand why people were in such a tizzy.

- Jed


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> From: Jed 

> I do not understand why people were in such a tizzy.

Really!  You'd think it had snowed.  ;-)

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> From: Jed Rothwell 

> All is quiet in Atlanta today. I see no gas lines. The price 
> settled at $3.15 per gallon, after the governor declared a
> "gasoline price state of emergency" yesterday evening.
> 
> I do not understand why people were in such a tizzy.
> 
> - Jed

As of Thursday a gallon'o'gas is hovering around $3.10 - $3.30 up here in Madison, Wisconsin.

Glad I'm not selling Ford Explorers for a living. It would not surprise me to see an increase in the sale of used SUVs, hummers, & RVs in the local classifieds in the near future. 

I'm with Jed on this one. I feel little simpathy for many of these owners who could have made more sensible choices when it came to basic transportation.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
> From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
> Date: 2005/09/01 Thu PM 03:57:28 CDT
> To: vortex-L eskimo.com
> Subject: Re: Gasoline panic has begun in Atlanta
> 
> All is quiet in Atlanta today. I see no gas lines. The price settled at 
> $3.15 per gallon, after the governor declared a "gasoline price state of 
> emergency" yesterday evening.
> 
> I do not understand why people were in such a tizzy.
> 
> - Jed
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep  1 14:39:15 2005
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From: "Jones Beene" <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
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Not just a rare national disaster... but10 days earlier, in case 
you missed it.... a metaphor for both 'rarity'... and the 
necessity of aggressive intervention....

This strained meta-4-melo-drama is about bravery in the face of 
long odds....and showing 'em how you really feel about the 
petrocracy and price-gouging at the pumps.

Backtracking a bit, there are three types of full moon anomalies - 
and two are called "blue moons." One kind of blue moon is the 
second full moon in a month which has two full moons. That kind of 
blue moon last occurred in July 2004 and happens next in June 
2007. Last week's blue moon was the third full moon in a season 
with four full moons. The next blue moon of this kind won't happen 
till mid 2008. The third kind of full moon anomaly was experienced 
only by the Brit's, most of whom perished at the hand of the 
perpetrator.... 700 hundred years ago.

I was reminded this morning that this week marks the 700th 
anniversary of the death of Scottish hero and ancestor William 
Wallace - a.k.a. Braveheart.

His story was famously given the typical Hollywood makeover by Mel 
Gibson in 1995. The Scottish freedom fighter, who reportedly 
killed a hundred of Britain's finest in combat - mano-a-mano... 
was betrayed, arrested, tried, hung, drawn and quartered outside 
the church of St Bartholomew1305, at the behest of Kind Edward 
(Longshanks the cowardly, now best remembered as having "Prince 
Edward in a can").

Nowadays, Braveheart's resolve, if not his sartorial indiscretion, 
can be an inspiration to those of us lesser mortals who exist 
primarily to help others break free of the tyrannical grip of the 
big-oil petrocracy.

Next time you need to fill up, make sure you are wearing the 
appropriate kilt, and show 'em up in DC how you really feel about 
price gouging ....

Jones

In point of fact, it should be added that very likely nobody wore 
a kilt in the13th century, whether Highlander, Lowlander, or 
Lunar-lander, as the first evidence for a "belted plaid" or "great 
kilt" dates only to the 16th century, and actual kilts (i.e. the 
male skirt) date only to the 18th century. Worse yet, what is worn 
in the film isn't even accurate for the way they wore their plaids 
(thankfully)... up until recent times...

Not-to-worry, it makes a great meta-4 for diss-ing the 
powers-that-be.... 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep  1 15:32:13 2005
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Subject: SUVs and global warming
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 23:30:50 +0100
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Kyle and Jed had a bit of an argument about SUVs and Hybrids and Kyle's old 
big engined car. When deciding whether a new car that gets great petrol 
mileage is the best option one ought to remember that a huge amount of 
energy is tied up in the manufacture of the vehicle and the extraction of 
the raw materials thereof. It just might be environmentally better for Kyle 
to carry on with his old big engined car getting 20mpg rather than  increase 
the market by purchasing a new vehicle that gets 50mpg. It is certainly 
easier to maintain older cars economically for longer. When many of today's 
hyper efficient hyper complex cars get old, it may be impossible to 
economically maintain them much earlier than the older, simpler type of 
designs. When they get junked, the "embodied energy" of manufacture will be 
lost that much sooner. If one really has to buy a new vehicle it is, of 
course, important NOT to choose a gas guzzler because that will be creating 
a market force that will force manufacturers to get efficient or lose market 
share.
    As far as global warming goes one has to remember that there are two 
stages to worry about. First, the slow increase of temperature leading to a 
statistical increase in storms, droughts and flooding etc. I doubt if it is 
philosophically possible to prove that this is happening now or will happen. 
There could be other reasons why these events are increasing. The only way 
to scientifically definitively prove that human induced global warming is 
possible would be to use a time machine, go back, say, thirty years and 
change the amount of greenhouse gases that civilisation put out, go back to 
the future and see the result. Do this numerous times, altering the gases 
each time and eventually you will have hard data enabling hypotheses to be 
formed and predictions to be made. As we cannot do this we have to rely on 
computer modelling, imperfect as it may be. Insane people argue that because 
these models are imperfect that we should not take action that may affect 
our standard of living until they can be fully relied on (by which time it 
will almost certainly be too late). The second type of climate change that 
we really ought to worry about is the phase change type where we come to a 
tipping point where a small change in, say, ocean temperature releases 
methane ice or similar leading to a runaway positive feedback effect. Such 
an effect is not easily or accurately predictable because there are just too 
many thousands (or millions?) of parameters in the experimental set-up to be 
taken into account. Experimental climate science does not exist as a 
discipline, nor should it ever. Our species, however, has unconsciously been 
running a huge climate experiment for centuries. The end result if we get a 
"phase change" or a climate flip might be a mass extinction event. Such a 
possibility is so dramatic that ordinary rules of proof are reversed. Even 
if the chances are one in 10,000 the gamble must not be taken. Anyone who 
argues against the need to take action to avoid such an event because it is 
uncertain to be true, or may affect business or whatever is insanely stupid, 
dangerously irresponsible and criminally reckless. Unfortunately there are 
plenty like this around who prefer to listen to comforting words - the 
trouble is most of them look just like ordinary people... 


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Subject: Re: Once in a blue moon
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jones Beene" <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
To: "vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 4:38 PM
Subject: Once in a blue moon


> Not just a rare national disaster... but10 days earlier, in case you 
> missed it.... a metaphor for both 'rarity'... and the necessity of 
> aggressive intervention....
>
> This strained meta-4-melo-drama is about bravery in the face of long 
> odds....and showing 'em how you really feel about the petrocracy and 
> price-gouging at the pumps.
>
> Backtracking a bit, there are three types of full moon anomalies - and two 
> are called "blue moons." One kind of blue moon is the second full moon in 
> a month which has two full moons. That kind of blue moon last occurred in 
> July 2004 and happens next in June 2007. Last week's blue moon was the 
> third full moon in a season with four full moons. The next blue moon of 
> this kind won't happen till mid 2008. The third kind of full moon anomaly 
> was experienced only by the Brit's, most of whom perished at the hand of 
> the perpetrator.... 700 hundred years ago.
>
> I was reminded this morning that this week marks the 700th anniversary of 
> the death of Scottish hero and ancestor William Wallace - a.k.a. 
> Braveheart.
>
> His story was famously given the typical Hollywood makeover by Mel Gibson 
> in 1995. The Scottish freedom fighter, who reportedly killed a hundred of 
> Britain's finest in combat - mano-a-mano... was betrayed, arrested, tried, 
> hung, drawn and quartered outside the church of St Bartholomew1305, at the 
> behest of Kind Edward (Longshanks the cowardly, now best remembered as 
> having "Prince Edward in a can").
>
> Nowadays, Braveheart's resolve, if not his sartorial indiscretion, can be 
> an inspiration to those of us lesser mortals who exist primarily to help 
> others break free of the tyrannical grip of the big-oil petrocracy.
>
> Next time you need to fill up, make sure you are wearing the appropriate 
> kilt, and show 'em up in DC how you really feel about price gouging ....
>
> Jones
>
> In point of fact, it should be added that very likely nobody wore a kilt 
> in the13th century, whether Highlander, Lowlander, or Lunar-lander, as the 
> first evidence for a "belted plaid" or "great kilt" dates only to the 16th 
> century, and actual kilts (i.e. the male skirt) date only to the 18th 
> century. Worse yet, what is worn in the film isn't even accurate for the 
> way they wore their plaids (thankfully)... up until recent times...
>
> Not-to-worry, it makes a great meta-4 for diss-ing the powers-that-be....

Wouldn'y know much about clans and kilts. Never met a woman that wasn't 
curious about looking under the kilt. Most say that has a vicarious thrill 
of desire to " lift" up the edge.. < grin> Maybe it's a woman's natural 
inclination during the " full moon"

Richard


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep  1 16:09:11 2005
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To: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Subject: Re: Gasoline panic has begun in Atlanta
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---- Original Message -----
From: "Jed Rothwell" <jedrothwell mindspring.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, 31 August, 2005 09:59 PM
Subject: Re: Gasoline panic has begun in Atlanta

> Sorry, let me amend that. I have zero sympathy for RICH people who drive
new gas guzzler SUVs and Hummers. I have   > tons of sympathy for people
like you who have no choice -- and I know several both here in Atlanta and
in Pennsylvania.    > Unfortunately, things are going to get worse for you
because in a few years when half the used cars will be SUVs.

Well the hell with that...I am not going to drive an SUV. Too dangerous
(they are topheavy as all get out) and I can barely afford to keep going
now....I don't need a 14mpg mostly-plastic/aluminum monstrosity that weighs
so much only because it is ridiculously big. Why do people need these
things? Back when I was a kid, my family got around very well in a Plymouth
Voyager minivan. Reliable, and lots of room, as well as having a 2.5l engine
that would run through anything and got excellent mileage.

> On the other hand, since you read this forum, you probably have a good
grasp of engineering, and you buy the most fuel-   > efficient car you can,
and to keep the tires properly filled and the engine in good shape. You
probably conserve in other      > ways, such as by using compact flourescent
lights. People who do that are part of the solution, whether they are rich
or       > poor.

I buy what I can, and if possible, modify it to do better based on what I
know of internal combustion engines. My current vehicle is a 1990 Buick
Regal, 3.8l motor. Its ok, was cheap. But, it is not so great on gas, nor
does it have the get-up-and-go to show for it. Believe it or not, my
previous car, a 1986 Chevrolet Monte Carlo, with a 5.0l carbureted got
better mileage. My Regal gets about 22mpg/highway, the Monte Carlo got
25-28. Why? 1., I don't drive like a bat out of hell, and I anticipate
lights. 2., I modified the carburetor jetting and camshaft. Just for kicks,
we took it and had it dyno'd. Just under 325 horsepower. BUT: that car is
now undriveable, because the modifications made it illegal to operate in New
York state given the new laws that just went into effect for inspections.
How is that for irony? You go buy a gigantic SUV that is DESIGNED to have
lousy mileage and belch out pollution, and it passes inspection. You take an
old car with a huge engine, modify it so that it outruns most anything out
there, but gets better mileage than the average compact car, and it fails
inspection. Go figure. Incidentally, the inspection proceedures do not
include a tailpipe gas analysis......its simply "oh, it was modified? Oh, it
fails." The exhaust from the Chevy certainly did not smell as bad as that
from most cars I have been around.

I would love to try the same tricks with an old 4-cyl carbureted car.
Perhaps I will keep that in mind when looking for my next car? And BTW, you
are correct about the lights. Everything I use is fluorescent.

> Since you are a mechanic you know the alternatives better than I do.

For the little guy like me, difficult to say. Older for us is definitely
better, because you can fix it under your tree, and it is cheaper. Who
really needs all this power shit in their cars? And some of the stuff in
cars is just ridiculous....people are getting stupider because of it. Press
a button, it tells you how much oil is in your engine. We have people coming
to the shop that don't know how to check the oil in their engine, they just
trust the level light. In the 3rd bay of our shop there lies a Porsche. Its
owner trusted the oil level indicator. The indicator malfunctioned, where it
screwed into the side of the oil pan. Oil leaked out, and he went for a nice
30 mile drive with no oil in the engine. One of my coworkers is now busy
replacing the engine.

What we need is a bare-bones alternative-energy vehicle, with manual
everything and no convenience features that can be made and sold dirt cheap.
A few federal incentives for this would be nice. Then us little folk could
get stuff like this.

> I used to have one like that -- an Isuzu diesel. Great car!

I do not understand what caused the downfall of the diesel. Really when you
get down to it, they are not that hard to work on. Nasty and greasy yes, but
for 50mpg.....Nevertheless, diesel is still petroleum derived. I will not be
happy until I am driving something fueled by something more exotic, and
non-petroleum derived. I admit it, I have dreamed of the hydrogen car for
many years....

$300 billion in Iraq....wow. Anyone have any realistic idea how much of our
power grid could have been converted to something nicer with that kind of
cash?

--Kyle

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep  1 16:30:53 2005
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Subject: Re: Gasoline panic has begun in Atlanta
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Gasoline has settled at around $3.00/gallon + or - 20 cents in New Jersey. 
A rule of thumb I heard was that gasoline retails for about 60 cents above 
wholesale.  Wholesale prices are around $2.40 today on the NYMEX, so $3.00 
is about right.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jed Rothwell" <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
To: <vortex-L eskimo.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 4:57 PM
Subject: Re: Gasoline panic has begun in Atlanta


> All is quiet in Atlanta today. I see no gas lines. The price settled at 
> $3.15 per gallon, after the governor declared a "gasoline price state of 
> emergency" yesterday evening.
>
> I do not understand why people were in such a tizzy.
>
> - Jed
>
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep  1 17:22:35 2005
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---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: "Nick Palmer" <nickp wynterwood.co.uk>
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Date:  Thu, 1 Sep 2005 23:30:50 +0100


>    As far as global warming goes one has to remember that there are two 
>stages to worry about. First, the slow increase of temperature leading to a 
>statistical increase in storms, droughts and flooding etc. I doubt if it is 
>philosophically possible to prove that this is happening now or will happen. 
>There could be other reasons why these events are increasing....

According to statistics from the national hurricane center,

see here:  http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/pastdec.shtml

the number of major hurricanes hitting the US has been down since the middle of the last century. (See last column of chart.) The only thing particularly unusual about Katrina is that it hit a highly developed area unusually unprepared for it.

Personally, I have little use for the doctrine of global warming--however, adherents to the faith should argue strongly that New Orleans not be rebuilt--at least, not below sea level. 

Jeffery D. Kooistra


 

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Kyle Mcallister writes:

"And some of the stuff in
cars is just ridiculous....people are getting stupider because of it. Press
a button, it tells you how much oil is in your engine. We have people coming
to the shop that don't know how to check the oil in their engine, they just
trust the level light.  In the 3rd bay of our shop there lies a Porsche. Its
owner trusted the oil level indicator. The indicator malfunctioned . . ."

Hence the name "idiot light."

I'll bet that customer could sue Porsche.


"What we need is a bare-bones alternative-energy vehicle, with manual
everything and no convenience features that can be made and sold dirt cheap."

The Chinese are putting serious efforts into developing something like that. It will get 40 to 50 mpg. They plan to sell it in Europe and the U.S. for around $6,000. They are also preparing to ban the sale of most U.S. automobiles in China, supposedly because they consume too much gas.


"> I used to have one like that -- an Isuzu diesel. Great car!

I do not understand what caused the downfall of the diesel. Really when you
get down to it, they are not that hard to work on. . . ."

I think the automotive diesel was hurt by the fall in gas prices. It is doing well in Europe these days.


"$300 billion in Iraq....wow."

Much more than that, I am afraid. A recent estimate put the total long-term cost of the war at over $1 trillion. This includes things like the lifetime care of the severely wounded, and 5 more years of occupation. (Although Rumsfield thinks it will take 12 years, and I think he is right.) This was reported in the New York Times, and I think the estimate was made by a federal economist.


"Anyone have any realistic idea how much of our power grid could have been converted to something nicer with that kind of cash?"

For $1 trillion we could end the use of oil completely. We could replace it with something like wind-power generated hydrogen, or space-based power with space elevators. (The elevators would cost $6 billion.) As I said in my book in the chapter on desalination, people will never spend that kind of money on anything other than war. The U.S. would not spend $1 trillion to prevent global warming even if most of the population and political leaders were convinced it is real. They just could not bring themselves to do it. We will only spend such unthinkably vast sums of money on homicide -- which, as I have said, is our most sublime & favorite activity, judging by great works of art such as Hamlet.

- Jed



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Vortexians- Could we  be seeing the the prelude to an ICE AGE.
            Which they say is preceded by a warming or melt back.
             The Glaciers are melting- the ice from the artic
             and anartic is breaking up, maybe mother nature is
             getting ready to recycle the earth like she does every
             10,000 to 15,000 years. Which we will be able to watch
              but not do a dam thing about.
              Global warming may totally be beyond are control for
                 good or bad.=GES 

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On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 Terry wrote


> See the diagram.  Looks a lot like MAHG.
> http://www.spiritofmaat.com/archive/mar2/fox.htm

Well spotted Terry.  8-)

The implications of "Looks a lot like MAHG" have
finally sunk in. Still, I suppose it was only 
last Tuesday you pointed this out so I wont kick 
myself too severely for not having appreciated it 
immediately.

I must confess that up to now I have found the 
cynic's arguments more appealing than the "true 
believers", which is rather silly of me really. 
Jones has the right attitude in assuming MAHG 
innocent until proved guilty - maybe it's his 
legal training.

Now the fact that pulses are being used strongly 
suggests the MAHG is generating EVO ring vortices, 
in which case high overunity results are entirely 
reasonable as far as I'm concerned.

It is of note that claims of OU have been made 
implicitly on Hutchison's behalf and explicitly 
by Shoulders. Individually these might be 
dismissed as wildly optimistic, but taken 
collectively, together with MAHG they are beginning 
to form a rather convincing pattern.

In effect these vortices separate out different 
hierarchies of the positron-electron, neutral mass, 
neutral charge particles (materons). In other words 
they are separating out, not on the basis of velocity 
as in the case of Maxwell's demon, but on the basis of -

             dx/dt, d2x/dt2 and d3x/dt3

           - and anyone who has been watching the 
high speed camera shots of the Ashes knows the 
importance of spin and precession since they will 
have seen the ball not only spinning but precessing 
[wobbling 8-) ] as well.

This separation to form vortices occurs at every 
level. It must be what underlies the Hilsch tube 
phenomena. It must be what underlies the electric 
magnetic field relationship. It is certainly what 
underlies Katerina.

Recognising that one is dealing with vortex 
formation means that one can design to optimise 
the generation of vortices. instead of a cone to 
generate electron clusters a vortex shaped tip 
would seem preferable - like that toy smoke ring 
gun that someone mentioned. Unfortunately I have 
tried putting various words in the archive search 
box but I can't find the post with the URL. I did 
find a very interesting post by Beaty though which 
states,

  ===============================================
  Rather than Aether thrusters... suppose 
  we're living in a cloud of dark matter 
  right now.  How to apply a thrust?  Maybe 
  electromagnetically.

  One thing that I've never heard that anyone 
  investigates:  vacuum propulsion by fluid 
  analogy to smoke-ring launchers!  With smoke
  -ring launchers, the device uses an oscillating 
  piston to draw in air from all directions, 
  then periodically emit a high-speed "air glob" 
  in just one direction.  It can thrust itself 
  along, even though the piston is pure AC. 
  The "AC" waveform is spikes or a sawtooth.  
  It's a DC pump that relies on nonlinear 
  turbulence phenomena for its rectification: 
  in some Reynolds Number regions, sucking is 
  not the same as blowing.
  ===============================================

Note the reference to Reynold's number - 
a hierarchical boundary between dimensions.

Cheers,

Frank Grimer

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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: How $1 trillion could eliminate oil
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I wrote:

>For $1 trillion we could end the use of oil completely. We could replace 
>it with something like wind-power generated hydrogen . . .

Of course that is a very rough approximation, but I think it is correct to 
within 20%. It is not difficult to make a very rough estimate. $1 trillion 
equals $3,300 per person or about $10,000 per household.

Taking into account all forms of energy used by corporations farmers and at 
home, the average household consumes about 3 kW continuously, I think. 
$10,000 would buy you 1 kW of nuclear power plus 2 kW of wind power, which 
would be more than enough to replace the energy used for transportation, 
even if we used hydrogen generated at home, with plug-in hybrids. (That is 
inefficient and expensive but it would not require much of a distribution 
network.)

Actually I think $10,000 would be enough to eliminate 80% of oil and 80% of 
coal as well. Natural gas still abundant and it does not generate as much 
carbon dioxide so I would reduce it by, say, 20%. This would be done over 
20 years.

The $1 trillion would only be the cost of converting to new energy systems; 
we would also have to spend whatever we plan spend on fuel and new 
automobiles during this period anyway. When we finished, we would still 
spend almost as much for energy on a daily basis as we do now.

In practical terms, here is approximately how I would divvy up the money 
per household:

$4,000 for a plug-in hybrid cars. That is to say, $4,000 more than the 
family would spend for conventional cars. I am assuming that in 10 years 
nearly all cars will have to be replaced anyway, so the family would have 
to buy two cars in 20 years. The first plug-in hybrid car would cost 
~$3,000 more than a conventional car, in the second one only $1,000 more. 
As I said earlier, for the average commuter a plug in hybrid car would 
reduce the use of gasoline by 90%. Delivery trucks and long-haul trucks 
would be a problem, and aircraft would still consume petroleum.

$2,000 for conservation: improved insulation, compact fluorescent lights, 
better refrigerators, and so on. This would greatly reduce the need for 
additional generator capacity. We would still need additional generator 
capacity for the plug-in hybrids, but not as much.

$4,000 for additional generator capacity, split between wind and nuclear 
power. Wind would be ideal for recharging automobiles at night with power 
supplies that could be controlled by the electric power companies remotely 
via the Internet, as we discussed here earlier. Nuclear power would be 
needed in places which do not have much wind, and during periods when the 
wind is not blowing much. About half of our electricity now comes from 
coal. I hope this can be reduced to 10%.

As I said, this estimate might be off by 20%; it might take an extra $2000 
per household (1 kW of wind capacity). On the other hand it might be 
substantially cheaper because this plan would call for roughly 200 new 
nuclear power plants, and I think the cost of nuclear power would fall 
substantially if we build that many plants. Nuclear power now cost roughly 
$6,000 per kilowatt of capacity; it might fall to $2,000 or $3,000. Uranium 
fuel is very cheap and abundant. Cleaning up spent fuel is reasonably 
cheap, but of course it is a huge political problem.

Generally speaking, conventional alternative energy cannot compete with 
fossil fuel for two reasons:

1. Fossil fuel benefits from enormous subsidies, both direct and  hidden. 
Hidden subsidies include the cost of war to secure oil supplies ($1 
trillion), and the death of 20,000 people a year from coal pollution.

2. The startup costs for alternative energy tend to be higher, although the 
incremental fuel costs thereafter are lower for things like wind and 
nuclear power.

The $1 trillion I am discussing here would only be used for the startup 
costs, not for ongoing costs such as fuel and maintenance. The most extreme 
example of high startup costs followed by low operating costs would be for 
space-based solar power. The initial startup cost would be astronomical. A 
small space elevator costs $6 billion and I suppose an industrial scale one 
would cost $200 billion or more. However, once the system is in place you 
can add another square kilometer of photovoltaic collection panels and 
microwave transmitters very cheaply. A space-based collector would be in 
sunlight nearly all the time. Transmission back to earth would be about 80% 
efficient, so overall this would be about 5 times more effective than 
ground-based solar, and it would be impervious to the weather, seasons or 
diurnal cycle. See:

http://www.bookrags.com/sciences/astronomy/energy-from-space-spsc-01.html

Cold fusion is far better than any of these alternatives because instead of 
costing $1 trillion for the transition, it would cost only a few hundred 
billion. The biggest cost would be to convert factories and retire 
manufacture equipment. All manufacturing equipment has to be retired anyway 
after 10 or 20 years, but cold fusion would make it obsolete, and it would 
be retired ahead of schedule. After the conversion is complete, individual 
machines such as cars and water heaters will be cheaper than present-day 
models, and fuel costs will be virtually zero. I describe this in 
considerable detail in my book.

This $1 trillion would only be enough to convert the U.S. I suppose it 
would cost another $1 or $2 trillion to convert the rest of the world. It 
would be good for the US to go first because we could develop the 
technology, absorb the cost of the development, and later make a large 
profit selling the equipment to other countries. It seems extremely 
unlikely the US will do anything like this, but Japan and China may well. 
As I mentioned, China is now developing a 40 to 50 mpg car they hope to 
sell for $6,000 in the U.S. I saw a photo of a prototype. It is not a 
micro-sized car like the ones you see in Japan and Italy, or a Mini Cooper 
but more like a small Corolla. If the Chinese succeed, than within 30 years 
this car will evolve into a plug-in hybrid, while the cost of gasoline 
rises to $10 per gallon, and the Chinese will drive both Ford and GM into 
bankruptcy.

- Jed


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I am incensed with the (lack of) response in the Gulf of Mexico.  HSA and FEMA are in a pissing contest and people are dying.  I have written my congressmen telling them I will remember this on election day.

It's easy to email your Representative if you know your 10 digit zip code.  Senators are even easier:

http://www.senate.gov/general/contact_information/senators_cfm.cfm

http://www.house.gov/writerep/

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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Conventional alternative energy versus cold fusion
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I wrote:

>The $1 trillion I am discussing here would only be used for the startup 
>costs, not for ongoing costs such as fuel and maintenance. . . .

>Cold fusion is far better than any of these alternatives because instead 
>of costing $1 trillion for the transition, it would cost only a few 
>hundred billion.

To clarify, energy now costs each American $2,499 per year. After we spend 
$1 trillion to transition to alternative energy, it will probably still 
cost $2,499 per year. (See my book, chapter 2.) Even though wind power 
consumes no fuel, it still costs a lot for other reasons, mainly 
distribution and maintenance. With cold fusion, after we spend $200 billion 
for the transition, fuel costs drop to $1 per person; distribution no 
longer exists; and maintenance costs are much lower because the equipment 
is designed to be cheap and long-lasting, rather than fuel efficient.

We should transition to alternative energy sources because this will 
prevent global warming and destroy al Qaeda and radical Islam, by 
eliminating their funding. But unfortunately, alternative energy will not 
save us any money, it will not make much difference to our lifestyle, and 
it will not help the 2 billion people who live in dire poverty at the edge 
of starvation without clean water. Cold fusion, on the other hand, will 
ultimately save us $5,000 or more per year (counting both fuel costs and 
cheaper equipment); it will revolutionize all technology; and if it is 
wisely used along with other technology it will eliminate dire poverty 
everywhere in the world.

Some experts believe that in the long-term alternative energy sources such 
as wind power will be cheaper than today's fossil fuel. Perhaps this is 
true, but the difference will not be dramatic. As I said before, the only 
alternative source that would be dramatically cheaper would be space-based 
solar, or possibly hot fusion.

- Jed


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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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BlankAnother link on Schauberger, note the Knossos pic at Crete, Could =
it be our ancient ancestors were not cave men ?
 http://iet-community.org/research/flowtechnique.html


Richard

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<DIV>Another link on Schauberger, note the Knossos pic at Crete, Could =
it be our=20
ancient ancestors were not cave men ?</DIV>
<P>&nbsp;<A=20
href=3D"http://iet-community.org/research/flowtechnique.html">http://iet-=
community.org/research/flowtechnique.html</A><BR></P>
<P>Richard</P></BODY></HTML>

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BlankSomebody has spent some work and time looking at the spiral
http://groups.msn.com/SchaubergerFlyingSaucer/shoebox.msnw


Richard

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<P><A=20
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep  2 09:21:34 2005
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Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2005 12:18:36 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Atlanta Journal, "SUV Blues"
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See:

http://www.ajc.com/search/content/auto/epaper/editions/thursday/living_34612a06e0b4124100ad.html

QUOTES:

SUV BLUES: *SIMPLY UNSELLABLE VEHICLE

As fuel prices rise, owners of gas guzzlers find themselves stuck with big 
drains on their budgets.

Michael and Julie Curnick of Roswell are selling their 1997 Ford 
Expedition, an 8-cylinder monster with the power to haul six Jersey cows 
and enough interior space to hold, well, Jersey.

With their 16-year-old son learning to drive and family trips to Tennessee 
costing $75 with every fill-up, the time became right to sell. Expecting it 
to be snapped up quickly --- SUV sales surged 11 percent in the first 
quarter of 2004 --- the couple bought a classified ad that practically 
gushed: Eddie Bauer, 4WD, 137K, one owner, 3rd rear seat A/C VG condition 
$8,500.

But in the last month, the response has been underwhelming. The Curnicks 
have had just two lousy phone calls --- one from a nosy reporter. . . .


When SUVs do sell, the owners are forced to settle for less money than the 
vehicle category fetched last year, said Alex Rosten, manager of pricing 
and market analysis for automotive Web site Edmunds. . . .

What does that mean if you hang a For Sale sign on your honkin' big ride? 
Nobody calls you anymore. Seventy-five bucks for a fill-up? Hello? Are you 
crazy? Click. . . .


Luxury SUVs like Hummer H3s and H2s or Cadillac Escalades are less prone to 
fluctuations in gas prices. Consumers willing to pay more than $50,000 for 
a car aren't likely to be bothered when gas goes up a quarter, said Kevin 
Cox, general manager of the CarMax in Norcross.

"If you're looking for an H2, that's a person looking for a Corvette," Cox 
said. "It's not like they're looking for an H2 and leaving with a Cherokee."

Still, while not "dramatic," he does see a "nudge" downward in the interest 
for large SUVs. . . .


Could it be that the honkin' big SUV has one foot in the vehicle boneyard? 
One seed for thought: Fill it with dirt and it could become the only 
planter box in the neighborhood with ABS brakes and seating for nine.

WHAT TO DO IF YOU CAN'T GET RID OF THAT BIG SUV?
Close windows, add water and fish. Instant aquarium.
Add refrigerator and berber carpet, convert to rental property.
. . .


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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: SUVs and global warming
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Nick Palmer wrote:

>It is certainly easier to maintain older cars economically for longer.

I do not think so! I spent a lot of time in the 1960s maintaining VW 
engines, and it was not easy or cheap. In the 1950s and 60s automobiles 
seldom lasted more than five years or 50,000 miles. The warranties were for 
20,000 miles as I recall. Nowadays you can even get an extended warranty 
for 10 years or 100,000 miles, and many people I know keep their cars for 
150,000 miles or more.

Despite the myths, old automotive technology was not reliable, not good, 
and it was grossly inefficient, polluting, harder to drive and much more 
dangerous in accidents.

The overall cost of owning an automobile relative to inflation has fallen a 
great deal since the 1950s. The direct cost of the automobile itself is 
higher, but other costs are much lower. They include the cost of fuel per 
mile, insurance, maintenance, the owner's cost of recovering from accidents 
(apart from the amount paid by insurance directly), and so on.

SUVs are an abomination, but ordinary passenger cars are much improved.


>  When many of today's hyper efficient hyper complex cars get old, it may 
> be impossible to economically maintain them much earlier than the older, 
> simpler type of designs.

The motor is guaranteed for 100,000 miles and the batteries for 200,000 
miles. Toyota pays the full cost of any repair or replacements. So it is 
already better than the "older, simpler designs." Even if the motor is 
reduced to junk after the warranty expires (which will certainly not be the 
case) it will still be a better deal than a 1965 auto engine.


>When they get junked, the "embodied energy" of manufacture will be lost 
>that much sooner.

There is no more embodied energy in a hybrid engine and a conventional one. 
Actually, because the motor weighs less and it is smaller, there is less 
material in it and probably less embodied energy. Heavyweight steel has 
been replaced by clever engineering. In any case, nearly every kilogram of 
material from a modern automobile is recycled, so the embodied energy used 
to refine the raw materials (the iron ore) is never lost. The energy used 
to fabricate the car is lost, but this is a function of the longevity of 
the machine, and modern cars last twice as long as older ones did.

If embodied energy really is a problem, we could engineer automobiles that 
last 20 years instead of 10, or even 50 years. Rolls-Royce automobiles with 
original equipment still work after a century. Of course such cars would 
cost hundreds of thousands of dollars each. It is a matter of trading off 
different costs. Wind turbine mechanical equipment has a much heavier duty 
cycle than automobile engines, but it lasts for 20 years. Danish engineers 
say that an automobile or truck engine built to the turbine specifications 
would last 50 years easily. I think it would be a very bad idea to make 
cars that last 20 years. The technology improves so quickly that a 
20-year-old vehicle fleet would be a millstone around our necks. It would 
be like having 20-year-old computers, except that not only would they be 
obsolete, they would also pollute, make far too much noise, and kill people 
in inordinate numbers.


>As far as global warming goes one has to remember that there are two 
>stages to worry about. First, the slow increase of temperature leading to 
>a statistical increase in storms, droughts and flooding etc. I doubt if it 
>is philosophically possible to prove that this is happening now or will happen.

"Philosophical" is a strange choice of words in this context. The Japanese 
Ministry of environment and the Weather Department have no difficulty 
measuring the immediate signs of global warming, including the temperature 
rise in the Pacific Ocean, the rise of the Inland Sea, the frequency and 
severity of storms, and the onset of spring flowering, which is coming 
about a week earlier than it did in the past, everywhere in the world. 
Whether this global warming is caused by carbon dioxide or some natural 
cycle is debatable, but there is no doubt whatever that it is occurring.

- Jed


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These photos are OK but are they real tested objects?  I read a lot
about Schauberger but see very little building of stuff.

________________________________

From: RC Macaulay [mailto:walhalla cvtv.net]=20
Sent: Friday, September 02, 2005 12:17 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Schauberger flying saucer


Somebody has spent some work and time looking at the spiral

http://groups.msn.com/SchaubergerFlyingSaucer/shoebox.msnw


Richard


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<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D651534716-02092005>These =
photos are OK but=20
are they real tested objects?&nbsp; I read a lot about Schauberger but =
see very=20
little building of stuff.</SPAN></DIV><BR>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
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<FONT face=3DTahoma><B>From:</B> RC Macaulay [mailto:walhalla cvtv.net]=20
<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, September 02, 2005 12:17 PM<BR><B>To:</B>=20
vortex-l eskimo.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> Schauberger flying=20
saucer<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>Somebody has spent some work and time looking at the spiral</DIV>
<P><A=20
href=3D"http://groups.msn.com/SchaubergerFlyingSaucer/shoebox.msnw">http:=
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Jed Rothwell wrote:

> John Coviello wrote:
>
>> 1st time martial law has been declared since WW2.
>
>
> Martial law has been declared many times, especially during the 
> rioting in the 1960s. I do not know whether it has been declared after 
> natural disasters, but I expect it has been.
>
> This storm was powerful and the effects were awful, but not 
> unprecedented. It was partly bad luck.

I'm not sure "bad luck" is the right term for it. I haven't double 
checked any of this, but here are some interesting quotes. It may be 
that those who feel we've been spending too much money abroad are right, 
and, of course, the lion's share of that has been sent to Iraq. At any 
rate problems with the levees have apparently been known for quite a 
while, and funding apparently was lacking to fix them as the engineers 
wanted to see them fixed.

But you may draw your own conclusions; I'm not really sufficiently well 
informed on this issue to judge what information I have available.

> /It appears that the money has been moved in the president’s budget to
> handle homeland security and the war in Iraq, and I suppose that’s the
> price we pay. Nobody locally is happy that the levees can’t be finished,
> and we are doing everything we can to make the case that this is a
> security issue for us./
>
> -- *Walter Maestri, emergency management chief for Jefferson Parish,
> Louisiana; New Orleans Times-Picayune, June 8, 2004.*


And here's a lengthy excerpt from a much-forwarded article (can't figure 
out what the original journal is from the email, sorry, and sorry about 
the length):

> New Orleans had long known it was highly vulnerable to flooding and a
> direct hit from a hurricane. In fact, the federal government has been
> working with state and local officials in the region since the late
> 1960s on major hurricane and flood relief efforts. When flooding from a
> massive rainstorm in May 1995 killed six people, Congress authorized the
> Southeast Louisiana Urban Flood Control Project, or SELA.
>
> Over the next 10 years, the Army Corps of Engineers, tasked with
> carrying out SELA, spent $430 million on shoring up levees and building
> pumping stations, with $50 million in local aid. But at least $250
> million in crucial projects remained, even as hurricane activity in the
> Atlantic Basin increased dramatically and the levees surrounding New
> Orleans continued to subside.
>
> Yet after 2003, the flow of federal dollars toward SELA dropped to a
> trickle. The Corps never tried to hide the fact that the spending
> pressures of the war in Iraq, as well as homeland security -- coming at
> the same time as federal tax cuts -- was the reason for the strain. At
> least nine articles in the Times-Picayune from 2004 and 2005
> specifically cite the cost of Iraq as a reason for the lack of
> hurricane- and flood-control dollars. (Much of the research here is from
> Nexis, which is why some articles aren't linked.)

> In early 2004, as the cost of the conflict in Iraq soared, President
> Bush proposed spending less than 20 percent of what the Corps said was
> needed for Lake Pontchartrain, according to this Feb. 16, 2004, article,
> in New Orleans CityBusiness:
>
> /The $750 million Lake Pontchartrain and Vicinity Hurricane Protection
> project is another major Corps project, which remains about 20%
> incomplete due to lack of funds, said Al Naomi, project manager. That
> project consists of building up levees and protection for pumping
> stations on the east bank of the Mississippi River in Orleans, St.
> Bernard, St. Charles and Jefferson parishes./
>
> /The Lake Pontchartrain project is slated to receive $3.9 million in the
> president's 2005 budget. Naomi said about $20 million is needed./
>
> /"The longer we wait without funding, the more we sink," he said. "I've
> got at least six levee construction contracts that need to be done to
> raise the levee protection back to where it should be (because of
> settling). Right now I owe my contractors about $5 million. And we're
> going to have to pay them interest."/
>
> That June, with the 2004 hurricane seasion starting, the Corps' Naomi
> went before a local agency, the East Jefferson Levee Authority, and
> essentially begged for $2 million for urgent work that Washington was
> now unable to pay for. >From the June 18, 2004 Times-Picayune:
>
> /"The system is in great shape, but the levees are sinking. Everything
> is sinking, and if we don’t get the money fast enough to raise them,
> then we can’t stay ahead of the settlement," he said. "The problem that
> we have isn’t that the levee is low, but that the federal funds have
> dried up so that we can’t raise them."/
>
> The panel authorized that money, and on July 1, 2004, it had to pony up
> another $250,000 when it learned that stretches of the levee in Metairie
> had sunk by four feet. The agency had to pay for the work with higher
> property taxes. The levee board noted in October 2004 that the feds were
> also now not paying for a hoped-for $15 million project to better shore
> up the banks of Lake Pontchartrain.
>
> The 2004 hurricane season, as you probably recall, was the worst in
> decades. In spite of that, the federal government came back this spring
> with the steepest reduction in hurricane- and flood-control funding for
> New Orleans in history
> <http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4200/is_20050207/ai_n10176537>. 
>
> Because of the proposed cuts, the Corps office there imposed a hiring
> freeze. Officials said that money targeted for the SELA project -- $10.4
> million, down from $36.5 million -- was not enough to start any new
> jobs. According to New Orleans CityBusiness this June 5:
>
> /The district has identified $35 million in projects to build and
> improve levees, floodwalls and pumping stations in St. Bernard, Orleans,
> Jefferson and St. Charles parishes. Those projects are included in a
> Corps line item called Lake Pontchartrain, where funding is scheduled to
> be cut from $5.7 million this year to $2.9 million in 2006. Naomi said
> it's enough to pay salaries but little else./
>
> /"We'll do some design work. We'll design the contracts and get them
> ready to go if we get the money. But we don't have the money to put the
> work in the field, and that's the problem," Naomi said./
>
> There was, at the same time, a growing recognition that more research
> was needed to see what New Orleans must do to protect itself from a
> Category 4 or 5 hurricane. But once again, the money was not there. As
> the Times-Picayune reported last Sept. 22
> <http://librarychronicles.blogspot.com/2004_09_01_librarychronicles_archive.html#109586740210321937>: 
>
>
> /That second study would take about four years to complete and would
> cost about $4 million, said Army Corps of Engineers project manager Al
> Naomi. About $300,000 in federal money was proposed for the 2005
> fiscal-year budget, and the state had agreed to match that amount./
>
> /*But the cost of the Iraq war forced the Bush administration to order
> the New Orleans district office not to begin any new studies*, and the
> 2005 budget no longer includes the needed money, he said./
>
> The Senate was seeking to restore some of the SELA funding cuts for
> 2006. But now it's too late
> <http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/08/30/MTFH92570_2005-08-30_18-04-50_SCH065073.html>. 
>
> One project that a contractor had been racing to finish this summer was
> a bridge and levee job right at the 17th Street Canal, site of the main
> breach. The levee failure appears to be causing a human tragedy of epic
> proportions:
>
> /"We probably have 80 percent of our city under water; with some
> sections of our city the water is as deep as 20 feet. Both airports are
> underwater," Mayor Ray Nagin told a radio interviewer./ 


And a few links to possibly relevant articles, which I have _not_ 
checked out:

> May of this year.
> http://www.prospect.org/web/page.ww?section=root&name=ViewWeb&articleId=10180 
>
> <http://www.prospect.org/web/page.ww?section=root&name=ViewWeb&articleId=10180> 
>
>
> October of 2001
> http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID=sa006&articleID=00060286-CB58-1315-8B5883414B7F0000 
>
> <http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID=sa006&articleID=00060286-CB58-1315-8B5883414B7F0000> 
>
>
> Budget cuts
> http://www.mediainfo.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001051313 
>
>
> Disaster Preparedness after September 11, 2001
> http://www.thenewstribune.com/opinion/story/5143684p-4679606c.html
>
> http://www.disasternews.net/news/news.php?articleid=134
>
> http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/08/16/MNGUB88JUS1.DTL&hw=gathright+zamora&sn=013&sc=732 
>
> <http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/08/16/MNGUB88JUS1.DTL&hw=gathright+zamora&sn=013&sc=732> 
>
>
> In 2001 FEMA warned that hurricane in New Orleans would be the disaster
> ith has proven to be.
> http://www.salon.com/opinion/blumenthal/2005/08/31/disaster_preparation/index_np.html 
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep  2 10:02:46 2005
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From: "Craig Haynie" <public craighaynie.com>
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Subject: Re: SUVs and global warming
Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 17:01:34 -0000
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>>It is certainly easier to maintain older cars economically for longer.
>
> I do not think so! I spent a lot of time in the 1960s maintaining VW 
> engines, and it was not easy or cheap. In the 1950s and 60s automobiles 
> seldom lasted more than five years or 50,000 miles. The warranties were 
> for 20,000 miles as I recall. Nowadays you can even get an extended 
> warranty for 10 years or 100,000 miles, and many people I know keep their 
> cars for 150,000 miles or more.

Something struck me the other day. In July, 1997, I bought my first 
fuel-injected Jeep Cherokee. And I realized the other day, while I was 
driving, that this car has NEVER died on me in the past 8 years, (except 
when I've run out of gas). I drive it 40+ miles on every weekday, for 8 
years, 150,000 miles, doing only marginal maintenance on it, and it has 
never died on me. This is phenomenal, and certainly beyond the expectations 
of any of my pre-1990's cars.

Craig Haynie (Houston)


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep  2 10:13:27 2005
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Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:10:54 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: My ISP hit by Katrina
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My ISP, NetworkTel, has had the slows all week. I have a T1 connection in 
Atlanta and I just talked the tech support guy, who it turns out is in 
Florida. He says the network backbone all across the Southeast has been hit 
hard by Katrina, and traffic is being routed around the breaks every which 
direction. I do not think he is making excuses.

It is surprising how fragile modern society is.

- Jed 


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Subject: Re: New Orleans: 80 percent of the city under water
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Stephen A. Lawrence wrote:

>>This storm was powerful and the effects were awful, but not 
>>unprecedented. It was partly bad luck.
>
>I'm not sure "bad luck" is the right term for it.

I meant bad luck in the sense that it hit New Orleans, rather than a rural 
section of the coastline. It has been known for a long time that the levees 
and pumps in New Orleans need repairs and upgrades, and that the city is 
exceptionally vulnerable to hurricane damage.

Of course it was bound to be hit sooner or later.

As people learn more about nature and our control over nature increases, 
the notion of "luck" becomes less and less applicable to natural disasters. 
Things like polio and tsunamis are natural in origin, obviously, but the 
fact that they still kill large numbers of people nowadays is entirely our 
fault. Avian flu cannot be prevented. It will probably cross over to our 
species eventually. It will kill hundreds of thousands of people -- mainly 
sick, old people, we hope. That is normal for any new form of influenza, 
and it cannot be prevented. But if it kills millions of healthy young 
people that will be our fault. That can probably be prevented with proper 
public health measures and intense research now, while there is still time. 
The rapid evolution and spread of avian flu is caused by bad sanitation and 
thousands of chickens crammed together. The high toll from the 1918 
influenza pandemic was caused by human activity: mainly war and the famine 
it triggered, and improved transportation.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep  2 10:49:33 2005
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I love this sentence:

"In particular, some 5% of a proton's magnetism is contributed not by the host quarks but by visiting strange quarks that have popped out of nowhere. "

http://www.economist.com/science/displayStory.cfm?story_id=4342393

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Jed's one trillion dollar energy conversion plans are interesting and thought provoking. Many of us may quibble over specific details, but for the most part, I suspect there is much worth pondering here.

The speculative idea of buying a 50 mpg family car manufactured in China while FORD files for bankruptcy because its customer base suddenly realized that owning Ford Explorers may no longer appear as sexy as had originally been advertised is indeed a sobering one.

I'd like to add a few fertile thoughts of my own to this interesting brew of perceptions:

As the price of oil reaches escape velocities alternative sources of energy (AE) of all types begin to look more attractive by the minute in terms of generating new enterprises and long overdue IPOs.

And here lies a dirty little national tale.

In my view, the lack of being able to maintain sustained incentives in developing AE was one of the worst national tragedies that resulted out of the 70s & 80s when our nation endured the first oil crisis. I think some of the worst political blunders the administrations of those eras chose to follow was to implicitly believe that the private sector would develop AE sources all on their own. It almost seemed to border on a quasi-religious conviction. Republican administrations loved preaching this philosophy, and why not. They could claim there was no logical reason to tax its citizens for desperately needed AE R&D when it was assumed that private industry would do the necessary dirty work all on their own. Unfortunately, most citizens vote on their wallets and few cared to ask the serious questions concerning just exactly WHO would end up footing the bills for developing these new forms of AE. The goal of developing new forms of AE is a long and expensive one no matter what !
 path one chooses to walk down. The brutal truth of the matter is that either we pay higher TAXES to foot the AE research or we pay higher PRICES (to foot the cost of corporate AE research) for the products we want to buy. Either way it hits us all in the wallet. I got the impression that republican administrations glossed over the fact that most corporations, including those in positions to develop new AE, are for the most part addicted to generating short term profits. When oil prices began to drop corporate motivation to foot the bill for highly speculative AE research quickly began to look unattractive. It was considered a waste of finite financial resources that, from a corporate incentive point of view, could be spent more profitably elsewhere. Funding for expensive research into AE was systematically abandoned and/or mothballed in order to maintain healthy bottom lines for the next corporate meeting. Instant corporate gratification was the rule of thumb.

What I can never forgive the administrations of the 70s and 80 for was their lack of insight in not trying to inspire an incentive and responsibility to develop AE on a national scale. It was the responsibility of those administrations to spearhead a national challenge that all of its citizens could have been inspired to rally around. Those administrations should have known that the private sector would have been incapable of taking the challenge since most corporations are chained to the beck and call of their shareholders.

A call to develop AE would have been no different than the national incentive we all rallied around back in the 60s which culminated in the landing a man on the moon and bringing him safely back to Earth within a decade as inspired by John F. Kennedy. It also takes a special kind of presidential charisma and leadership that JFK possessed and shrewdly played to his advantage. It is a charisma that unfortunately Bush Jr. hasn't a prayer's chance of comprehending, let alone exploiting. Let me ask the Vortex readership: Even though it's probably a very good idea how many us have felt truly "inspired" by Bush's latest proposal to send us, once again, back to the surface of the Moon - and then on to Mars. It seems to me that true inspiration relies on exploiting current historical circumstances combined with originality of thought in parlaying its citizens into accepting the difficult challenges of a nationally focused goal. In order to exploit this successfully a president has to!
  be able to accurately read the collective hopes and fears of his citizens. It's the only way he can make them respond in ways that motivates them to taking action in positive ways. As for trying to motivate the nation to return to the moon...been there, done that. As I've said before, I've never heard an original idea come out of Bush Junior's thought processes. As such, I don't expect him to utter any original ideas or solutions on how to get us out of the current energy crises either. I can only hope that by 2008 when election time comes around...

In conclusion, the horrible irony in all this is that based on how capitalism works in our country if we wish to see AE developed as rapidly as possible we had better hope that a gallon'o'gas permanently remains around four or five dollars - and higher. The brutal truth of the matter is that there is no profit in developing AE when gas sells for around two bucks a gallon. When adjusted for inflation we discover that lately we have been actually paying less for a gallon'o'gas than we had been back in the 70s and 80s.

Unfortunately, I may get my wish. It seems likely that the price of oil is permanently headed for $60 - $70 a barrel and probably a lot higher in the foreseeable future. If so, it should help ensure what no doubt will likely turn out to be both a bumpy and scary transition to AE. It will be painful for many of our citizens helplessly caught in the social, political, and economic cross fire of change.

Meanwhile, many of us hope that some exotic new form of AE, like CF or ZPE, may be just around the corner, like the Calvary riding into the settlement on verge of total genocide at the hands of indigenous cannibals looking for another weekend bash culminating with a tasty barbeque of "long pig". We continue to hope for the first of many public announcements, perhaps starting in 2006. I freely admit that I'm as guilty as anyone else in hoping to see the first of hopefully MANY rabbits pulled out of the hat. For now, however, the curtain remains closed while we fidget about waiting for the magician fumbling about behind stage trying to stuff his hookah back in the hat. I hope I'll be able to afford the coming winter heating bills. Our home is heated by natural gas. I bet down comforters and sweaters are poised to sell briskly during the holiday season as well.

Long underwear anyone?

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep  2 12:42:03 2005
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Subject: Re: My ISP hit by Katrina
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> Jed sez:

> My ISP, NetworkTel, has had the slows all week. I have a T1 connection in 
> Atlanta and I just talked the tech support guy, who it turns out is in 
> Florida. He says the network backbone all across the Southeast has been hit 
> hard by Katrina, and traffic is being routed around the breaks every which 
> direction. I do not think he is making excuses.
> 
> It is surprising how fragile modern society is.
> 
> - Jed 
> 
On the other hand, the Internet was originally designed to survive outages and attacks either of a natural or geopolitical political nature. As I'm sure you well know the system was designed to reroute it's messages around the damaged areas. The fact that you're getting messages (albeit not as quickly as you would like) proves that the system appears to have survived the attack.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep  2 12:47:12 2005
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Subject: Re: How $1 trillion could eliminate oil
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I have no doubts anymore that we now have the technology to eliminate most 
of our use of oil.  From wind to solar to geothermal to waste to energy to 
advanced batteries.  We could do it over a period of a decade or less with 
the proper investments.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jed Rothwell" <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
To: <vortex-L eskimo.com>
Sent: Friday, September 02, 2005 11:05 AM
Subject: How $1 trillion could eliminate oil


>I wrote:
>
>>For $1 trillion we could end the use of oil completely. We could replace 
>>it with something like wind-power generated hydrogen . . .
>
> Of course that is a very rough approximation, but I think it is correct to 
> within 20%. It is not difficult to make a very rough estimate. $1 trillion 
> equals $3,300 per person or about $10,000 per household.
>
> Taking into account all forms of energy used by corporations farmers and 
> at home, the average household consumes about 3 kW continuously, I think. 
> $10,000 would buy you 1 kW of nuclear power plus 2 kW of wind power, which 
> would be more than enough to replace the energy used for transportation, 
> even if we used hydrogen generated at home, with plug-in hybrids. (That is 
> inefficient and expensive but it would not require much of a distribution 
> network.)
>
> Actually I think $10,000 would be enough to eliminate 80% of oil and 80% 
> of coal as well. Natural gas still abundant and it does not generate as 
> much carbon dioxide so I would reduce it by, say, 20%. This would be done 
> over 20 years.
>
> The $1 trillion would only be the cost of converting to new energy 
> systems; we would also have to spend whatever we plan spend on fuel and 
> new automobiles during this period anyway. When we finished, we would 
> still spend almost as much for energy on a daily basis as we do now.
>
> In practical terms, here is approximately how I would divvy up the money 
> per household:
>
> $4,000 for a plug-in hybrid cars. That is to say, $4,000 more than the 
> family would spend for conventional cars. I am assuming that in 10 years 
> nearly all cars will have to be replaced anyway, so the family would have 
> to buy two cars in 20 years. The first plug-in hybrid car would cost 
> ~$3,000 more than a conventional car, in the second one only $1,000 more. 
> As I said earlier, for the average commuter a plug in hybrid car would 
> reduce the use of gasoline by 90%. Delivery trucks and long-haul trucks 
> would be a problem, and aircraft would still consume petroleum.
>
> $2,000 for conservation: improved insulation, compact fluorescent lights, 
> better refrigerators, and so on. This would greatly reduce the need for 
> additional generator capacity. We would still need additional generator 
> capacity for the plug-in hybrids, but not as much.
>
> $4,000 for additional generator capacity, split between wind and nuclear 
> power. Wind would be ideal for recharging automobiles at night with power 
> supplies that could be controlled by the electric power companies remotely 
> via the Internet, as we discussed here earlier. Nuclear power would be 
> needed in places which do not have much wind, and during periods when the 
> wind is not blowing much. About half of our electricity now comes from 
> coal. I hope this can be reduced to 10%.
>
> As I said, this estimate might be off by 20%; it might take an extra $2000 
> per household (1 kW of wind capacity). On the other hand it might be 
> substantially cheaper because this plan would call for roughly 200 new 
> nuclear power plants, and I think the cost of nuclear power would fall 
> substantially if we build that many plants. Nuclear power now cost roughly 
> $6,000 per kilowatt of capacity; it might fall to $2,000 or $3,000. 
> Uranium fuel is very cheap and abundant. Cleaning up spent fuel is 
> reasonably cheap, but of course it is a huge political problem.
>
> Generally speaking, conventional alternative energy cannot compete with 
> fossil fuel for two reasons:
>
> 1. Fossil fuel benefits from enormous subsidies, both direct and  hidden. 
> Hidden subsidies include the cost of war to secure oil supplies ($1 
> trillion), and the death of 20,000 people a year from coal pollution.
>
> 2. The startup costs for alternative energy tend to be higher, although 
> the incremental fuel costs thereafter are lower for things like wind and 
> nuclear power.
>
> The $1 trillion I am discussing here would only be used for the startup 
> costs, not for ongoing costs such as fuel and maintenance. The most 
> extreme example of high startup costs followed by low operating costs 
> would be for space-based solar power. The initial startup cost would be 
> astronomical. A small space elevator costs $6 billion and I suppose an 
> industrial scale one would cost $200 billion or more. However, once the 
> system is in place you can add another square kilometer of photovoltaic 
> collection panels and microwave transmitters very cheaply. A space-based 
> collector would be in sunlight nearly all the time. Transmission back to 
> earth would be about 80% efficient, so overall this would be about 5 times 
> more effective than ground-based solar, and it would be impervious to the 
> weather, seasons or diurnal cycle. See:
>
> http://www.bookrags.com/sciences/astronomy/energy-from-space-spsc-01.html
>
> Cold fusion is far better than any of these alternatives because instead 
> of costing $1 trillion for the transition, it would cost only a few 
> hundred billion. The biggest cost would be to convert factories and retire 
> manufacture equipment. All manufacturing equipment has to be retired 
> anyway after 10 or 20 years, but cold fusion would make it obsolete, and 
> it would be retired ahead of schedule. After the conversion is complete, 
> individual machines such as cars and water heaters will be cheaper than 
> present-day models, and fuel costs will be virtually zero. I describe this 
> in considerable detail in my book.
>
> This $1 trillion would only be enough to convert the U.S. I suppose it 
> would cost another $1 or $2 trillion to convert the rest of the world. It 
> would be good for the US to go first because we could develop the 
> technology, absorb the cost of the development, and later make a large 
> profit selling the equipment to other countries. It seems extremely 
> unlikely the US will do anything like this, but Japan and China may well. 
> As I mentioned, China is now developing a 40 to 50 mpg car they hope to 
> sell for $6,000 in the U.S. I saw a photo of a prototype. It is not a 
> micro-sized car like the ones you see in Japan and Italy, or a Mini Cooper 
> but more like a small Corolla. If the Chinese succeed, than within 30 
> years this car will evolve into a plug-in hybrid, while the cost of 
> gasoline rises to $10 per gallon, and the Chinese will drive both Ford and 
> GM into bankruptcy.
>
> - Jed
>
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep  2 12:55:55 2005
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In my haste to post this lengthy essay, I completely misused the word "hookah". I was going for a different and more exotic name for a rabbit. I was NOT going for a psychedelic pipe. (Think of Jefferson Airplane - "Go ask Alice...")

Oh well... it's the thought that counts.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep  2 13:02:09 2005
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From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
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Subject: Gas vs. Electric Heating
Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 16:01:10 -0400
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Today, I am paying $1.10 per therm for natural gas.  This amounts to about 3.75 cents per kWh.  I have an older furnace whose efficiency is around 80% increasing the heating cost to 4.7 cents per kWh.  Add in the cost of the blower electricity and the gas service charge, and I'm paying over a nickel per kWh to heat my house.

Electric space heaters are 100% efficient.  I presently pay about 10 cents per kWh for e-.  Rumors abound that natural gas costs will soar this winter.  If gas doubles, it's cheaper to use electricity assuming that price remains the same.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep  2 13:09:16 2005
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> From: OrionWorks 

> In my haste to post this lengthy essay, I completely misused the word "hookah". I was going for a different and more exotic name for a rabbit. I was NOT going for a psychedelic pipe. (Think of Jefferson Airplane - "Go ask Alice...")

I've never seen so many mixed metaphors in all my life!  :-)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pookah

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Electric heat has never been competitve in most of the country.  You rarely 
see electric heat in the NorthEastern U.S. because electricity is expensive 
here, well above 10 cents per kWh in most places.  I pay 15 cents per kWh 
for electricity including about 2.5 cents for green power, but even without 
that extra green charge, I would still be paying 12.5 cents per kWh.  Hardly 
worth going electric for heat unless absolutely necessary, for example when 
oil runs out and there are no alternatives.  A better use of electricity to 
heat a home would be to install a geothermal heat pump and run that off 
electric.  Geothermal heat pump heaters are 50-70% more efficient than gas 
or oil heaters and would use less electricity than straight electric heat.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Terry Blanton" <commengr bellsouth.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Friday, September 02, 2005 4:01 PM
Subject: Gas vs. Electric Heating


> Today, I am paying $1.10 per therm for natural gas.  This amounts to about 
> 3.75 cents per kWh.  I have an older furnace whose efficiency is around 
> 80% increasing the heating cost to 4.7 cents per kWh.  Add in the cost of 
> the blower electricity and the gas service charge, and I'm paying over a 
> nickel per kWh to heat my house.
>
> Electric space heaters are 100% efficient.  I presently pay about 10 cents 
> per kWh for e-.  Rumors abound that natural gas costs will soar this 
> winter.  If gas doubles, it's cheaper to use electricity assuming that 
> price remains the same.
> 

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John Coviello wrote:

>I have no doubts anymore that we now have the technology to eliminate most 
>of our  use of oil.  From wind to solar to geothermal to waste to energy 
>to advanced batteries.  We could do it over a period of a decade or less 
>with the proper investments.

I think that has been true since the mid 1970s. The only question has been 
the cost. It would be cheaper now than ever before, but still expensive.

It is interesting to see how much environmentalists have changed their 
minds about which form of alternative energy is best. Take this book I have 
here: Robert Stroh bow and Daniel Yergin, "Energy Future -- Report to the 
Energy Project at the Harvard Business School," (Ballantine, 1979), 493 
pages. Yergin is still respected expert. The blurb on the cover says, 
"Heroic . . . a truly magnificent book." -- Wall Street Journal. This book 
has a lot of useful information, but it devotes hundreds of pages to things 
like solar PV chips and biofuel, and it includes exactly three references 
to "windmills" (not turbines -- even though they do not mill anything):

1. Windmills are listed in one table.

2. There is a parenthetical statement about "small windmills," -- claiming 
they have no future. (I agree)

3. A statement near the conclusion: "Congress should fund prototype 
versions of the centralized electric technologies (power towers, solar 
satellites, ocean thermal, large win machines), and . . . commit 
substantial funds to photovoltaics and energy plantation research and 
development." Good thing we did not follow that advice!

Based on this, I would say we should not listen to environmentalists when 
it comes to energy policy and alternative energy. Scientists also have a 
poor track record. Modern wind power began when backyard hippie enthusiasts 
in Denmark began building wind turbines, and engineers took it from there. 
So we should listen to lunatic fringe backyard inventors and engineers.

In point of fact, no one should try to pick the best source of alternative 
energy. The only practical way to do this would be to let unfettered free 
market competition decide the issue. That is something the Bush 
administration will never allow. They have tilted the playing field 45° in 
favor of fossil fuel and nuclear power. They talk like capitalists but they 
act like socialists -- their creed is socialism for wealthy people and rich 
corporations. If we must have socialism I would prefer to have the 
old-fashioned kind that at least tries to enfranchise poor people. They 
need the money more than Enron did.

- Jed



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep  2 13:53:16 2005
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Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2005 16:51:27 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: My ISP hit by Katrina
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OrionWorks wrote:

> > It is surprising how fragile modern society is.
> >
>On the other hand, the Internet was originally designed to survive outages 
>and attacks either of a natural or geopolitical political nature. As I'm 
>sure you well know the system was designed to reroute it's messages around 
>the damaged areas.

Good point. Come to think of it, it should not even have a "network 
backbone," but it does. That was not part of the original plan.


>  The fact that you're getting messages (albeit not as quickly as you 
> would like) proves that the system appears to have survived the attack.

I am fine, but I cannot use the Internet effectively. I cannot upload a 
revised paper Steve Krivit just sent me. It took several minutes to 
download here. This works about as fast as dial up modem with frequent 
timeouts. I am not doing anything important, but if I were a government 
relief worker trying to send vital messages, this performance would be a 
serious problem.

Perhaps this is just be my ISP making excuses about a technical glitch? I 
doubt it. Robert Cringley in looking into it, to find out if the slowdown 
is widespread in the Southeast and Gulf region.

- Jed


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From: "John Coviello" <johnwc patmedia.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <14063133.1125621275522.JavaMail.root mswamui-bichon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <6.2.1.2.2.20050902101024.04b2beb0@pop.mindspring.com> <02d301c5aff7$054a3760$a4b1e118@D54BYG11> <6.2.1.2.2.20050902162000.04b41eb0@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: How $1 trillion could eliminate oil
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jed Rothwell" <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
To: <vortex-L eskimo.com>
Sent: Friday, September 02, 2005 4:43 PM
Subject: Re: How $1 trillion could eliminate oil


John Coviello wrote:

>I have no doubts anymore that we now have the technology to eliminate most 
>of our  use of oil.  From wind to solar to geothermal to waste to energy to 
>advanced batteries.  We could do it over a period of a decade or less with 
>the proper investments.

I think that has been true since the mid 1970s. The only question has been
the cost. It would be cheaper now than ever before, but still expensive.

It is interesting to see how much environmentalists have changed their
minds about which form of alternative energy is best. Take this book I have
here: Robert Stroh bow and Daniel Yergin, "Energy Future -- Report to the
Energy Project at the Harvard Business School," (Ballantine, 1979), 493
pages. Yergin is still respected expert. The blurb on the cover says,
"Heroic . . . a truly magnificent book." -- Wall Street Journal. This book
has a lot of useful information, but it devotes hundreds of pages to things
like solar PV chips and biofuel, and it includes exactly three references
to "windmills" (not turbines -- even though they do not mill anything):

1. Windmills are listed in one table.

2. There is a parenthetical statement about "small windmills," -- claiming
they have no future. (I agree)

3. A statement near the conclusion: "Congress should fund prototype
versions of the centralized electric technologies (power towers, solar
satellites, ocean thermal, large win machines), and . . . commit
substantial funds to photovoltaics and energy plantation research and
development." Good thing we did not follow that advice!

Based on this, I would say we should not listen to environmentalists when
it comes to energy policy and alternative energy. Scientists also have a
poor track record. Modern wind power began when backyard hippie enthusiasts
in Denmark began building wind turbines, and engineers took it from there.
So we should listen to lunatic fringe backyard inventors and engineers.

In point of fact, no one should try to pick the best source of alternative
energy. The only practical way to do this would be to let unfettered free
market competition decide the issue. That is something the Bush
administration will never allow. They have tilted the playing field 45° in
favor of fossil fuel and nuclear power. They talk like capitalists but they
act like socialists -- their creed is socialism for wealthy people and rich
corporations. If we must have socialism I would prefer to have the
old-fashioned kind that at least tries to enfranchise poor people. They
need the money more than Enron did.

- Jed

The costs have come down at least ten fold since the 1970s, bringing it well 
within reach now if we have the will do spend the money. Another thing that 
has changed since the 1970s is that lighting and appliances are much more 
efficient than a generation ago.  A house in 2005 could easily be 
retrofitted with new appliances and flourescent lighting to use much less 
than 50% of the electricity that the same house in 1975 used.  That is a 
factor, since it would require less energy to power our modern society if we 
got serious about efficiency.  It also make home-based renewable systems 
much more practical than they once were.  If you only need a 2 kW solar 
electric system rather than a 4 kW unit, because your energy consumption is 
50% less, then your costs come down considerably.




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep  2 14:04:40 2005
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From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: My ISP hit by Katrina
Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 17:03:46 -0400
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> From: Jed Rothwell

> Perhaps this is just be my ISP making excuses about a technical glitch? 

Yes, although traffic is higher, generally outages are not the problem:

http://www.nthelp.com/maps.htm

Today's networks utilize dense wavelength division multiplexing with optical switching.  The network is a mesh with great route diversity.  We are no longer bandwidth limited on the backbone.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep  2 14:59:13 2005
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From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: My ISP hit by Katrina
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> From: Terry Blanton 

> > From: Jed Rothwell
> 
> > Perhaps this is just be my ISP making excuses about a technical glitch? 
> 
> Yes, although traffic is higher, generally outages are not the problem:

To be fair to your ISP, it should be stated that there are several tiers of service providers.  The tier 1 providers are those like Sprint, IBM, MCI Worldcom, etc.  The lower tiers depend on these providers and sometimes multiple levels in between.  The smaller your ISP is, the more layers that might exist between him and the tier 1 provider.

My earlier comments apply to tier 1 providers only.  For example, my ISP, Bellsouth is a tier 2 provider who purchases from IBM, a tier 1 provider.  Consequently, Bellsouth also provides services to smaller ISPs.

So, your techie might say "The Internet is slow because of Katrina".  However, what he really means is that the tier (x-1) provider is slow for him (tier x) which very well could be due to a failure somewhere in the tier (x-1) system due to Katrina.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep  2 15:29:59 2005
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Because this part of my ICENES paper was so appreciated by some of you I 
have placed it on its own standalone Web page.

http://newenergytimes.com/PR/CFMythsFacts.htm


s 

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From: Steven Krivit <steven newenergytimes.com>
Subject: Re: My ISP hit by Katrina
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Jed,

If you are really curious, you can probably do some diags on your own with 
tracert and note the latency for various hops to various destinations.

s

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Maybe his ISP is not tier 1?

At 02:03 PM 9/2/2005, you wrote:
> > From: Jed Rothwell
>
> > Perhaps this is just be my ISP making excuses about a technical glitch?
>
>Yes, although traffic is higher, generally outages are not the problem:
>
>http://www.nthelp.com/maps.htm
>
>Today's networks utilize dense wavelength division multiplexing with 
>optical switching.  The network is a mesh with great route diversity.  We 
>are no longer bandwidth limited on the backbone.

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From: "John Steck" <johnsteck tetrahelix.com>
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Amen.

-----Original Message-----
From: Kyle Mcallister [mailto:weir fdscience.org] 
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 6:05 PM
To: Vortex-L
Subject: Re: Gasoline panic has begun in Atlanta

What we need is a bare-bones alternative-energy vehicle, with manual
everything and no convenience features that can be made and sold dirt cheap.
A few federal incentives for this would be nice. Then us little folk could
get stuff like this.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep  2 23:32:27 2005
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> [Original Message]
> From: What's New <whatsnew BOBPARK.ORG>
 To: <BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW LISTSERV.UMD.EDU>
 Date: 9/2/2005 11:27:41 AM
 Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday September 2, 2005

 WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 2 Sep 05   Washington, DC 

 1. THE WAR: PRESIDENTIAL WANNABES GET "THAT OLD-TIME RELIGION." 
 Senator John McCain made it clear last week that he too can read
 polls.  In an interview with the Arizona Daily Star, McCain said
 "all points of view" should be available to students studying the
 origins of mankind.  WN was unable to reach Senator McCain
 for clarification, but by "all" we think he means just evolution and
 intelligent design.  Or maybe he hopes to corner the votes of
 those who worship "the giant frog from whose mouth the river of
 life flowed."  McCain's appeal to evolution deniers came just
 four days after Senator Frist made a pitch to the scientifically
 challenged http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN05/wn082605.html.  

 2. THE POLL: INTELLIGENT DESIGN IS IN THE RIGHT PEW   FAR RIGHT. 
 The respected Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life found that
 64% of Americans favor teaching creationism along with evolution
 in public schools.  A scary 38% want to REPLACE evolution with
 creationism.  The tiny glimmer of hope for civilization was the
 number of inconsistencies in the responses, suggesting confusion
 over the meaning of the terms.  There is room for education.

 3. THE SCIENCE ADVISOR: IS THERE A WHITE HOUSE SCIENCE ADVISOR? 
 Actually, no.  The President didn't consult his science advisor
 about intelligent design because he doesn't have one.  George W.
 Bush eliminated the job when he named John Marburger Director of
 the Office of Science and Technology Policy.  Previous OSTP
 directors held both titles, and WN always referred to Marburger
 as "Science Advisor."  We were wrong, but not alone.  We Googled
 "science advisor"   and  got 597,000 hits on a nonexistent job. 
 As they used to say at Stony Brook when he was president, "this
 would never have happened if Jack Marburger was alive."

 4. THE CHIMP: COMPLETE GENETIC MAP CONFIRMS DARWIN'S THEORY. 
 Scientists at MIT and Washington University, St. Louis, announced
 Wednesday that they have determined the precise order of the 3
 billion bits of genetic code needed to make a chimpanzee.  There
 is only a 1 percent difference from the human genetic code.  But
 for that 1 percent, chimpanzees would have a seat in the UN. 
 Robert Waterston, who led the Washington University team, was
 quoted in yesterday's Washington Post saying, "I can't imagine
 Darwin hoping for a stronger confirmation of his ideas." 

 5. THE WOMEN'S HEALTH CHIEF: OFFICIAL RESIGNS OVER PLAN B DELAY. 
 Assistant FDA Commissioner Susan Wood has resigned following a
 decision to further delay action on a plan to allow easier access
 to the morning-after contraceptive.  An expert advisory panel of
 the FDA favored the change 23 to 4, in order to reduce abortions
 and unwanted pregnancies.  Opposition comes from religious
 conservatives who believe a fertilized egg is a new life. 
 Although Plan B is a contraceptive, researchers think that in
 some cases it might keep a fertilized egg from implanting in the
 uterus.  Susan Wood's job description calls for her to be "a
 champion for women's health."  The description fit her well.

 THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND.
 Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the
 University of Maryland, but they should be.
 ---
 Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.bobpark.org
 What's New is moving to a different listserver and our
 subscription process has changed. To change your subscription
 status please visit this link:
 http://listserv.umd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=bobparks-whatsnew&A=1


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From: "RC Macaulay" <walhalla cvtv.net>
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Subject: Re: Gasoline panic has begun in  Atlanta
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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BlankKyle wrote..
>What we need is a bare-bones alternative-energy vehicle What we need is =
a bare-bones alternative-energy vehicle, with manual
>everything and no convenience features that can be made and sold dirt =
cheap.


We have one.. its called a bicycle!


>A few federal incentives for this would be nice. Then us little folk =
could
>get stuff like this.


Gimme's dead.

Richard

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<DIV>Kyle wrote..</DIV>
<P>&gt;What we need is a bare-bones alternative-energy vehicle What we =
need is a=20
bare-bones alternative-energy vehicle, with manual<BR>&gt;everything and =
no=20
convenience features that can be made and sold dirt cheap.<BR></P>
<P>We have one.. its called a bicycle!</P>
<P><BR>&gt;A few federal incentives for this would be nice. Then us =
little folk=20
could<BR>&gt;get stuff like this.<BR></P>
<P>Gimme's dead.</P>
<P>Richard</P></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep  3 05:49:09 2005
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Subject: Re: How $1 trillion could eliminate oil
References: <14063133.1125621275522.JavaMail.root mswamui-bichon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <6.2.1.2.2.20050902101024.04b2beb0@pop.mindspring.com>
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Jed have you looked at Dr John Bockris' work on solar hydrogen. The 
solar chimny technology in deserts even at halve the size and power 
output numbers of the original solar hydrogen book would work given some 
of the inovations that have come up since. Solar hydrogen has been 
getting less press lately mainly because John, its loudest advovate, has 
switched to cold fusion and that realy got the greens confused. :-\
PS If you get to chat with Dr Bockris give him my regards and my email. 
I bootlegged one of his books so I owe him some money for copy right. ;-)
Jed Rothwell wrote:

> I wrote:
>
>> For $1 trillion we could end the use of oil completely. We could 
>> replace it with something like wind-power generated hydrogen . . .
>
>
> Of course that is a very rough approximation, but I think it is 
> correct to within 20%. It is not difficult to make a very rough 
> estimate. $1 trillion equals $3,300 per person or about $10,000 per 
> household.
>
> Taking into account all forms of energy used by corporations farmers 
> and at home, the average household consumes about 3 kW continuously, I 
> think. $10,000 would buy you 1 kW of nuclear power plus 2 kW of wind 
> power, which would be more than enough to replace the energy used for 
> transportation, even if we used hydrogen generated at home, with 
> plug-in hybrids. (That is inefficient and expensive but it would not 
> require much of a distribution network.)
>
> Actually I think $10,000 would be enough to eliminate 80% of oil and 
> 80% of coal as well. Natural gas still abundant and it does not 
> generate as much carbon dioxide so I would reduce it by, say, 20%. 
> This would be done over 20 years.
>
> The $1 trillion would only be the cost of converting to new energy 
> systems; we would also have to spend whatever we plan spend on fuel 
> and new automobiles during this period anyway. When we finished, we 
> would still spend almost as much for energy on a daily basis as we do 
> now.
>
> In practical terms, here is approximately how I would divvy up the 
> money per household:
>
> $4,000 for a plug-in hybrid cars. That is to say, $4,000 more than the 
> family would spend for conventional cars. I am assuming that in 10 
> years nearly all cars will have to be replaced anyway, so the family 
> would have to buy two cars in 20 years. The first plug-in hybrid car 
> would cost ~$3,000 more than a conventional car, in the second one 
> only $1,000 more. As I said earlier, for the average commuter a plug 
> in hybrid car would reduce the use of gasoline by 90%. Delivery trucks 
> and long-haul trucks would be a problem, and aircraft would still 
> consume petroleum.
>
> $2,000 for conservation: improved insulation, compact fluorescent 
> lights, better refrigerators, and so on. This would greatly reduce the 
> need for additional generator capacity. We would still need additional 
> generator capacity for the plug-in hybrids, but not as much.
>
> $4,000 for additional generator capacity, split between wind and 
> nuclear power. Wind would be ideal for recharging automobiles at night 
> with power supplies that could be controlled by the electric power 
> companies remotely via the Internet, as we discussed here earlier. 
> Nuclear power would be needed in places which do not have much wind, 
> and during periods when the wind is not blowing much. About half of 
> our electricity now comes from coal. I hope this can be reduced to 10%.
>
> As I said, this estimate might be off by 20%; it might take an extra 
> $2000 per household (1 kW of wind capacity). On the other hand it 
> might be substantially cheaper because this plan would call for 
> roughly 200 new nuclear power plants, and I think the cost of nuclear 
> power would fall substantially if we build that many plants. Nuclear 
> power now cost roughly $6,000 per kilowatt of capacity; it might fall 
> to $2,000 or $3,000. Uranium fuel is very cheap and abundant. Cleaning 
> up spent fuel is reasonably cheap, but of course it is a huge 
> political problem.
>
> Generally speaking, conventional alternative energy cannot compete 
> with fossil fuel for two reasons:
>
> 1. Fossil fuel benefits from enormous subsidies, both direct and  
> hidden. Hidden subsidies include the cost of war to secure oil 
> supplies ($1 trillion), and the death of 20,000 people a year from 
> coal pollution.
>
> 2. The startup costs for alternative energy tend to be higher, 
> although the incremental fuel costs thereafter are lower for things 
> like wind and nuclear power.
>
> The $1 trillion I am discussing here would only be used for the 
> startup costs, not for ongoing costs such as fuel and maintenance. The 
> most extreme example of high startup costs followed by low operating 
> costs would be for space-based solar power. The initial startup cost 
> would be astronomical. A small space elevator costs $6 billion and I 
> suppose an industrial scale one would cost $200 billion or more. 
> However, once the system is in place you can add another square 
> kilometer of photovoltaic collection panels and microwave transmitters 
> very cheaply. A space-based collector would be in sunlight nearly all 
> the time. Transmission back to earth would be about 80% efficient, so 
> overall this would be about 5 times more effective than ground-based 
> solar, and it would be impervious to the weather, seasons or diurnal 
> cycle. See:
>
> http://www.bookrags.com/sciences/astronomy/energy-from-space-spsc-01.html
>
> Cold fusion is far better than any of these alternatives because 
> instead of costing $1 trillion for the transition, it would cost only 
> a few hundred billion. The biggest cost would be to convert factories 
> and retire manufacture equipment. All manufacturing equipment has to 
> be retired anyway after 10 or 20 years, but cold fusion would make it 
> obsolete, and it would be retired ahead of schedule. After the 
> conversion is complete, individual machines such as cars and water 
> heaters will be cheaper than present-day models, and fuel costs will 
> be virtually zero. I describe this in considerable detail in my book.
>
> This $1 trillion would only be enough to convert the U.S. I suppose it 
> would cost another $1 or $2 trillion to convert the rest of the world. 
> It would be good for the US to go first because we could develop the 
> technology, absorb the cost of the development, and later make a large 
> profit selling the equipment to other countries. It seems extremely 
> unlikely the US will do anything like this, but Japan and China may 
> well. As I mentioned, China is now developing a 40 to 50 mpg car they 
> hope to sell for $6,000 in the U.S. I saw a photo of a prototype. It 
> is not a micro-sized car like the ones you see in Japan and Italy, or 
> a Mini Cooper but more like a small Corolla. If the Chinese succeed, 
> than within 30 years this car will evolve into a plug-in hybrid, while 
> the cost of gasoline rises to $10 per gallon, and the Chinese will 
> drive both Ford and GM into bankruptcy.
>
> - Jed
>
>

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Subject: Re: New Orleans: 80 percent of the city under water
References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050830184351.029b8748 mail.newenergytimes.com> <016001c5add1$339107c0$a4b1e118@D54BYG11> <6.2.1.2.2.20050831094228.04b64140@pop.mindspring.com> <4318855F.1000400@pobox.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050902131511.04b38da0@pop.mindspring.com>
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I did't know you had a rural section of the coastline. I look at google 
sat maps from earlier this year and its just a string of suburbs from 
Texus to florida.

http://maps.google.com/maps?oi=map&q=New+Orleans,+LA has an up to date 
sat photo of the damaged CBD. Click on 'Katrina'.
Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Stephen A. Lawrence wrote:
>
>>> This storm was powerful and the effects were awful, but not 
>>> unprecedented. It was partly bad luck.
>>
>>
>> I'm not sure "bad luck" is the right term for it.
>
>
> I meant bad luck in the sense that it hit New Orleans, rather than a 
> rural section of the coastline. It has been known for a long time that 
> the levees and pumps in New Orleans need repairs and upgrades, and 
> that the city is exceptionally vulnerable to hurricane damage.
>
> Of course it was bound to be hit sooner or later.
>
> As people learn more about nature and our control over nature 
> increases, the notion of "luck" becomes less and less applicable to 
> natural disasters. Things like polio and tsunamis are natural in 
> origin, obviously, but the fact that they still kill large numbers of 
> people nowadays is entirely our fault. Avian flu cannot be prevented. 
> It will probably cross over to our species eventually. It will kill 
> hundreds of thousands of people -- mainly sick, old people, we hope. 
> That is normal for any new form of influenza, and it cannot be 
> prevented. But if it kills millions of healthy young people that will 
> be our fault. That can probably be prevented with proper public health 
> measures and intense research now, while there is still time. The 
> rapid evolution and spread of avian flu is caused by bad sanitation 
> and thousands of chickens crammed together. The high toll from the 
> 1918 influenza pandemic was caused by human activity: mainly war and 
> the famine it triggered, and improved transportation.
>
> - Jed
>
>

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Well almost. Llewellyn H. Rockwell, Jr is putting in the boot on the 
states poor response to Katrina.
http://www.mises.org/story/1902

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Govt. poop.

http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=geo_heat.pr_crit_geo_heat_pumps

"Geothermal Heat Pump: A geothermal heat pump model uses the thermal energy of the ground or groundwater as the heat source and heat sink for residential space heating and/or cooling. It may provide both space heating and cooling, cooling only or heating only functions. A geothermal heat pump model consists of one or more factory-made assemblies that normally include an indoor conditioning coil with air moving means, compressor(s) and refrigerant to fluid heat exchanger(s). In addition, some or all of the domestic water heating shall be provided through the use of a desuperheater, integrated demand water heater or a separately installed compressor that provides demand water heating. The geothermal heat pump includes all the equipment and connections from the point at which the ground heat exchanger enters the house, except for indoor equipment that was installed by someone not representing the manufacturer or manufacturer's representative, such as the ground heat exchanger installer."
Frederick
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=3>Govt. poop.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=3></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=3><A href="http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=geo_heat.pr_crit_geo_heat_pumps">http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=geo_heat.pr_crit_geo_heat_pumps</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><STRONG>"Geothermal Heat Pump:</STRONG> A geothermal heat pump model uses the thermal energy of the ground or groundwater as the heat source and heat sink for residential space heating and/or cooling. It may provide both space heating and cooling, cooling only or heating only functions. A geothermal heat pump model consists of one or more factory-made assemblies that normally include an indoor conditioning coil with air moving means, compressor(s) and refrigerant to fluid heat exchanger(s). In addition, some or all of the domestic water heating shall be provided through the use of a desuperheater, integrated demand water heater or a separately installed compressor that provides demand water heating. The geothermal heat pump includes all the equipment and connections from the point at which the ground heat exchanger enters the house, except for indoor equipment that was installed by someone not representing the manufacturer or manufacturer's representative, such as the ground heat exchanger installer."</DIV>
<P>Frederick</P></BODY></HTML>
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Subject: Re: Alleviating Energy Costs
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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For anyone interested in a Geothermal Heat Pump, a system required for =
an average sized American home cost about $18,000 right now.  Prices are =
expected to slowly fall as more people get into the business and =
supplies become more available.  Some states offer incentives.  My state =
offers about $1,800 in incentives,  which is a little more than the =
sales taxes involved in the purchase of a geothermal heat pump system.

Heat pumps concentrate the natural heating or cooling (depending on =
season) of the earth (usually around 58 F constant) using an electric =
heat exchanger.  The heat exchangers are quite efficient and geothermal =
heat pump systems are known to produce heat at rates that are =
approximately 50% to 70% more efficient than a traditional natural gas =
or oil heating system.  So, the cost savings can be rather significant, =
and help pay for the system over a period of time, when one converts to =
a geothermal heat pump system for their heating and cooling needs.  If =
you really want to go green, you can produce the electricity needed to =
run your geothermal heat pump system via solar or other renewable means, =
and then you're really cutting yourself out of the hydrocarbon economy.
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Frederick Sparber=20
  To: vortex-l eskimo.com=20
  Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2005 8:24 AM
  Subject: Re: Alleviating Energy Costs


  Govt. poop.

  =
http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=3Dgeo_heat.pr_crit_geo_heat_pumps

  "Geothermal Heat Pump: A geothermal heat pump model uses the thermal =
energy of the ground or groundwater as the heat source and heat sink for =
residential space heating and/or cooling. It may provide both space =
heating and cooling, cooling only or heating only functions. A =
geothermal heat pump model consists of one or more factory-made =
assemblies that normally include an indoor conditioning coil with air =
moving means, compressor(s) and refrigerant to fluid heat exchanger(s). =
In addition, some or all of the domestic water heating shall be provided =
through the use of a desuperheater, integrated demand water heater or a =
separately installed compressor that provides demand water heating. The =
geothermal heat pump includes all the equipment and connections from the =
point at which the ground heat exchanger enters the house, except for =
indoor equipment that was installed by someone not representing the =
manufacturer or manufacturer's representative, such as the g! round heat =
exchanger installer."
  Frederick

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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML style=3D"FONT-SIZE: x-small; FONT-FAMILY: MS Sans Serif"><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2722" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>For anyone interested in a&nbsp;</FONT><FONT=20
face=3D"MS Sans Serif"><STRONG>Geothermal Heat Pump</STRONG>, a system =
required=20
for an average sized American home cost about $18,000 right now.&nbsp; =
Prices=20
are expected to slowly fall as more people get into the business and =
supplies=20
become more available.&nbsp; Some states offer incentives.&nbsp; My =
state offers=20
about $1,800 in incentives,&nbsp; which is a little more than the sales =
taxes=20
involved in the purchase of a geothermal&nbsp;heat pump =
system.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>Heat pumps concentrate the natural heating or =
cooling=20
(depending on season) of the earth (usually around 58 F constant) using =
an=20
electric heat exchanger.&nbsp; The heat exchangers are quite efficient =
and=20
</FONT><FONT face=3D"MS Sans Serif">geothermal&nbsp;heat pump systems =
are known to=20
produce heat at rates that are approximately 50% to 70% more efficient =
than a=20
traditional natural gas or oil heating system.&nbsp; So, the cost =
savings can be=20
rather significant, and help pay for the system over a period of =
time,&nbsp;when=20
one converts to a geothermal&nbsp;heat pump system for their heating and =
cooling=20
needs.&nbsp; If you really want to go green, you can produce the =
electricity=20
needed to run your geothermal&nbsp;heat pump system via solar or other =
renewable=20
means, and then you're really cutting yourself out of the hydrocarbon=20
economy.</FONT></DIV></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3Dfjsparber earthlink.net=20
  href=3D"mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net">Frederick Sparber</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dvortex-l eskimo.com=20
  href=3D"mailto:vortex-l eskimo.com">vortex-l@eskimo.com</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, September 03, =
2005 8:24=20
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Alleviating Energy =

  Costs</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D3>Govt. poop.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D3></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D3><A=20
  =
href=3D"http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=3Dgeo_heat.pr_crit_geo_heat=
_pumps">http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=3Dgeo_heat.pr_crit_geo_heat=
_pumps</A></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><STRONG>"Geothermal Heat Pump:</STRONG> A geothermal heat pump =
model uses=20
  the thermal energy of the ground or groundwater as the heat source and =
heat=20
  sink for residential space heating and/or cooling. It may provide both =
space=20
  heating and cooling, cooling only or heating only functions. A =
geothermal heat=20
  pump model consists of one or more factory-made assemblies that =
normally=20
  include an indoor conditioning coil with air moving means, =
compressor(s) and=20
  refrigerant to fluid heat exchanger(s). In addition, some or all of =
the=20
  domestic water heating shall be provided through the use of a =
desuperheater,=20
  integrated demand water heater or a separately installed compressor =
that=20
  provides demand water heating. The geothermal heat pump includes all =
the=20
  equipment and connections from the point at which the ground heat =
exchanger=20
  enters the house, except for indoor equipment that was installed by =
someone=20
  not representing the manufacturer or manufacturer's representative, =
such as=20
  the g! round heat exchanger installer."</DIV>
  <P>Frederick</P></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep  3 07:22:50 2005
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Pricey no doubt, but maybe cheaper in the long run than predicted costs of natural gas, propane and heating oil.

http://www.trane.com/Residential/Products/HeatPumps/GroundSource/GroundSourcePage.asp

" Some homeowners are tapping into the earth for energy savings.They have found geothermal energy as a great source in heating and cooling their home. Many of these homeowners power their geothermal system with Trane's ground-source heat pumps. They know that Trane offers high efficiency equipment, ranging from 13 to 22.8 EER (Energy Efficiency Ratio) and from 2.7 to 3.9 COP (co-efficiency of performance) to provide some of the greatest energy savings and home comfort found in geothermal design. "

I have a Trane central heat system in the ten year old city home we bought in Feb 2004.
located next to some ancient volcanos.

Hmmm.  :-)

Frederick
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<P>
<DIV>Pricey no doubt, but maybe cheaper in the long run than predicted costs of natural gas, propane and heating oil.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://www.trane.com/Residential/Products/HeatPumps/GroundSource/GroundSourcePage.asp">http://www.trane.com/Residential/Products/HeatPumps/GroundSource/GroundSourcePage.asp</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>" Some homeowners are tapping into the earth for energy savings.They have found geothermal energy as a great source in heating and cooling their home. Many of these homeowners power their geothermal system with Trane's ground-source heat pumps. They know that Trane offers high efficiency equipment, ranging from 13 to 22.8 EER (Energy Efficiency Ratio) and from 2.7 to 3.9 COP (co-efficiency of performance) to provide some of the greatest energy savings and home comfort found in geothermal design. "</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>I have a Trane central heat system in the ten year old city home we bought in Feb 2004.</DIV>
<DIV>located next to some ancient volcanos.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Hmmm.&nbsp; :-)</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Frederick</DIV></BODY></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep  3 08:13:15 2005
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After filling up Monday at $2.62/gal, I decided to try to maximize my mileage on my '05 Scion xB.  I used the "center gear", aka "Georgia Overdrive" when going downhill, accelerated like there was ice on the road, and minimized AC use.  I traveled 172.6 miles on 4.565 gallons ( $3.29/gal today) for 37.82 mpg in a vehicle the EPA rates at 34 mpg with manual tranny.  My commute is 17 miles one way mostly on I-85.  I drove 55 mph most of the time.  

Don't try to coast in neutral with an automatic since many must be engaged to pump the fluid through the cooler.

These guys coaxed 80 mpg out of an unmodified Prius on a test track:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05217/548926.stm

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One might want to get up on the roof this fall, and cover it with "Bubble Wrap" held down
with "Plastic Netting". 
I researched this for a builder in 1992.  The stuff with bubbles over an inch is almost as good as double pane glass.

In 30 F air the temperature of a metal roof increased to 130 F in direct sunlight.

It should float on a pond or swimming pool. Good for windows too.

Frederick
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<DIV>One might want to get up on the roof this fall, and cover it with "Bubble Wrap" held down</DIV>
<DIV>with "Plastic Netting". </DIV>
<DIV>I researched this for a builder in 1992.&nbsp; The stuff with bubbles over an inch is almost as good as double pane glass.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>In 30 F air the temperature of a metal roof increased to 130 F in direct sunlight.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>It should float on a pond or swimming pool. Good for windows too.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Frederick</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep  3 16:40:55 2005
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Subject: Re: Gasoline panic has begun in  Atlanta
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Blank---- Original Message -----
From: RC Macaulay
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Sent: Saturday, 03 September, 2005 08:32 AM
Subject: Re: Gasoline panic has begun in Atlanta

Kyle wrote..
>>What we need is a bare-bones alternative-energy vehicle What we need is a
bare-bones alternative-energy vehicle, with >manual
>>everything and no convenience features that can be made and sold dirt
cheap.

>We have one.. its called a bicycle!

Try "driving" that through the snow 15 miles to work, along Niagara Falls
Blvd., just outside of Buffalo NY.

>>A few federal incentives for this would be nice. Then us little folk could
>>get stuff like this.

>Gimme's dead.

Please explain this remark.

--Kyle

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep  3 18:54:47 2005
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kyle Mcallister" <weir fdscience.org>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2005 6:37 PM
Subject: Re: Gasoline panic has begun in Atlanta


> Blank---- Original Message -----
> From: RC Macaulay
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> Sent: Saturday, 03 September, 2005 08:32 AM
> Subject: Re: Gasoline panic has begun in Atlanta
>
> Kyle wrote..
>>>What we need is a bare-bones alternative-energy vehicle What we need is a
> bare-bones alternative-energy vehicle, with >manual
>>>everything and no convenience features that can be made and sold dirt
> cheap.
>
>>We have one.. its called a bicycle!
>
> Try "driving" that through the snow 15 miles to work, along Niagara Falls
> Blvd., just outside of Buffalo NY.
>
>>>A few federal incentives for this would be nice. Then us little folk 
>>>could
>>>get stuff like this.
>
>>Gimme's dead.
>
> Please explain this remark.
>
> --Kyle

Old Texan saying ,Kyle. People asking someone to give me something  " gimme 
sumpin" gets the reply " gimme's dead".

While on the subject of " gimme sumpin", a fascinating dynamic is underway 
in the USA, both sudden and profound in its Implications,a change in ethnic 
view of one another as a byproduct of  hurricane Katrina.This change has 
been fermenting for a generation and has reared its ugly head in increasing 
frequency.

A less tolerant and hardening view toward the entrenched 3rd generation 
welfare class created by the state and compounded by the cultural bonds of 
ethnicity. Similar manifestations of change are taking place in Europe, 
India and the Muslim world.

Over the next six months, as the full depth of the magnitude of the Katrina 
disaster becomes understood, we may witness new and disturbing repercussions 
from our failed  social experiments of the 1960's. The fallout will result 
from the clash between three classes. One class of upward mobile, job 
secure,educated professionals with abundance ,family wealth and resources, 
one class hammered into poverty by the empty promise of welfare security and 
one class loosely
described as Red Nekkid.

The anger is intrinsic to the poverty class and is a loose barrel of 
gunpowder rolling on the deck.
The Rednekkid holds the box of matches. The box of matches is gasoline for 
their pickup trucks. Take that away and we can see what "ugly" looks like.

Richard.



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep  3 20:44:36 2005
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Subject: Sonoluminescence revisited
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On the last page of Putterman's Scientific American 
article (February 1995, page 37) there is a Figure 
comparing the Sonoluminescence Spectrum and 
Bremsstrahlung Radiation.

http://www.physics.ucla.edu/Sonoluminescence/sono.pdf

The following paragraph is appended under the Figure.

   ==================================================
   "SPECTRUM sonoluminescence shows that most 
   of the emitted light is ultraviolet. 
   As pointed out by Paul H.Roberts and Cheng-Chin 
   Wu of the University of California at Los Angeles, 
   the signal compares closely with bremsstrahlung 
   radiation - that is, light emitted by a plasma 
   at 100,000 degrees kelvins."
   ==================================================

Why does the sonoluminescence spectrum compare closely 
with bremsstrahlung radiation?

Because it is bremsstrahlung radiation.  8-)

How can this be?

Well, if you rapidly expand a cavity within a water
which is held together by external Beta-atmosphere 
pressure, the Beta-atmosphere pressure, which is well
below external ambient B-atm. pressure in the first
place (pF 6, say), is going to drop even further.

If we have a big tank of water and we punch a hole
near the base, water is going to piss out at a high
rate of knots as per Bernoulli. 

If the water is confined in a cavity it is going to 
swirl around that cavity. What is true of water, 
true of the Alpha-atmosphere, is also true of the 
Beta-atmosphere. 

In effect one has engineered a micro-synchrotron.
(shades of the cavity magnetron thread). Once 
again we have a manifestation of the Vortex.
One more manifestation to add to the Hutchison
Effect, Shoulders EVO's, etc.

Cheers,

Frank Grimer


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BlankGrimer wrote..
>Well, if you rapidly expand a cavity within a water
which is held together by external Beta-atmosphere=20
pressure, the Beta-atmosphere pressure, which is well
below external ambient B-atm. pressure in the first
place (pF 6, say), is going to drop even further.

>If the water is confined in a cavity it is going to=20
swirl around that cavity. What is true of water,=20
true of the Alpha-atmosphere, is also true of the=20
Beta-atmosphere.=20



Frank.. the thought fits together. Back in 1995, when Putterman began =
publishing his SL work, We were in a series of e-mail contacts with him. =
Looking back at Seth's questions of our work with cavitation, it is =
obvious he was more mystified than enlightened by his experiments. He =
published a series of answers to questions he sent out to Universities =
requesting input. The replies were across the board in thoughts.


Richard


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<DIV>Grimer wrote..</DIV>
<P>&gt;Well, if you rapidly expand a cavity within a water<BR>which is =
held=20
together by external Beta-atmosphere <BR>pressure, the Beta-atmosphere =
pressure,=20
which is well<BR>below external ambient B-atm. pressure in the =
first<BR>place=20
(pF 6, say), is going to drop even further.</P>
<P>&gt;If the water is confined in a cavity it is going to <BR>swirl =
around that=20
cavity. What is true of water, <BR>true of the Alpha-atmosphere, is also =
true of=20
the <BR>Beta-atmosphere. </P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>Frank.. the thought fits together. Back in 1995, when Putterman began =

publishing his SL work, We were in a series of e-mail&nbsp;contacts with =
him.=20
Looking back at Seth's questions of our work with cavitation, it is =
obvious he=20
was more mystified than enlightened by&nbsp;his experiments. He =
published a=20
series of answers to questions he sent out to Universities requesting =
input. The=20
replies were across the board in thoughts.<BR></P>
<P>Richard<BR></P></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep  4 10:15:30 2005
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Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2005 12:14:33 -0500
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Subject: Re: Cold Electricity
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"

I posted, and Chris Arnold replied;

>Easy - just ask Lindemann to produce one.
>
>
>
>thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com> wrote:
>
>Pat Bailey, PhD electrical engineering, of the INE, 
>patrickgbailey sbcglobal.net  says that he knows of an investor who 
>is interested in cold electricity.
>
>Pat sent me a .doc file with more information on the subject. If any 
>of you want to read it, let me know.
>
>I have previously expressed my skepticism with Peter Linderman's 
>book on the subject. However, I will happily recant everything if 
>someone produces a working cold electricity machine.
>

Shortly after he published the book I emailed Peter. I challenged him 
to support his contentions with experimental evidence, I have yet to 
receive a reply.

This thread was started by Pat Bailey who reviewed the book and says 
he knows of an investor who is interested in cold electricity. Given 
Linderman's claims, I can see why. Richard Hoagland of 
enterprisemission.,com was on C to C AM this morning going on about 
how the Intelligence Black Budget has been used to fund these 
marvelous machines, inertial drive, and FE machines. I considered 
writing him a letter asking him to describe one experiment which 
demonstrate one of those claims.
--============_-1086268412==_ma============
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<!doctype html public "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<html><head><style type="text/css"><!--
blockquote, dl, ul, ol, li { padding-top: 0 ; padding-bottom: 0 }
 --></style><title>Re: Cold Electricity</title></head><body>
<div>I posted, and Chris Arnold replied;</div>
<div><br></div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>Easy - just ask Lindemann to produce
one.</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>&nbsp;</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><br></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><br>
<i><b>thomas malloy &lt;temalloy metro.lakes.com&gt;</b></i>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote>Pat Bailey, PhD electrical engineering, of the INE,<font
face="Verdana" size="-2" color="#000000">
patrickgbailey sbcglobal.net&nbsp;</font> says that he knows of an
investor who is interested in cold electricity.</blockquote>
<blockquote><br></blockquote>
<blockquote>Pat sent me a .doc file with more information on the
subject. If any of you want to read it, let me know.</blockquote>
<blockquote><br></blockquote>
<blockquote>I have previously expressed my skepticism with Peter
Linderman's book on the subject. However, I will happily recant
everything if someone produces a working cold electricity machine.<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<div><br></div>
<div>Shortly after he published the book I emailed Peter. I challenged
him to support his contentions with experimental evidence, I have yet
to receive a reply.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>This thread was started by Pat Bailey who reviewed the book and
says he knows of an investor who is interested in cold electricity.
Given Linderman's claims, I can see why. Richard Hoagland of
enterprisemission.,com was on C to C AM this morning going on about
how the Intelligence Black Budget has been used to fund these
marvelous machines, inertial drive, and FE machines. I considered
writing him a letter asking him to describe one experiment which
demonstrate one of those claims.</div>
</body>
</html>
--============_-1086268412==_ma============--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep  4 13:11:51 2005
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Date: Sun, 04 Sep 2005 16:10:49 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Gasoline panic has begun in  Atlanta
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RC Macaulay wrote:

>>>>A few federal incentives for this would be nice. Then us little folk could
>>>>get stuff like this.
>>
>>>Gimme's dead.
>>
>>Please explain this remark.
>>
>>--Kyle
>
>Old Texan saying ,Kyle. People asking someone to give me something  " 
>gimme sumpin" gets the reply " gimme's dead".

What exactly does this mean, in this context? Are you saying that 
corporations should not design forward-looking products that consumers 
want, or will soon want, as market conditions evolve? We should let the 
Japanese and Chinese corporations do that instead, I suppose.

Or are you saying that governments and corporations should work together to 
produce new technology? That would be an interesting change. In the U.S., 
government has been on the forefront of technology and development since 
the colonial period. Every major transportation technology, including 
harbos, canals, steamships, railroads, subways, automobiles, airplanes and 
automobiles, has been developed with government leadership and funding. 
This sytem has worked splendidly for 300 years, but now -- for some unknown 
reason -- you suggest it will not longer work.

Also, why do you call it a "giveaway" when the return on investment in 
every case has been phenomenally good, for the government, citizens, and 
private industry alike?

I cannot understand this anti-technology, Luddite point of view. It is very 
fortunate that in other countries, government and industry still plan and 
build for the future. On NHK (Japan national TV) yesterday they showed a 
prototype electric automobile being developed at breakneck speed by the 
power companies, Toyota and the government. It is based on the newest 
batteries. The range is 200 km, and it recharges in 10 to 15 minutes. It 
will go on sale next year, and it should be available in the U.S. in three 
years, just about the time the first serious U.S. hybrids hit the road, I 
suppose. It is obviously lead to plug-in hybrids as well. The Chinese are 
working on similar vehicles. Do you really think it would be best to sit 
and wait for Toyota and the Chinese to wipe out our auto industry? Or 
should we respond 5 years too late to do any good, the way we responded to 
crises in Iraq and New Orleans?

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep  4 14:34:23 2005
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I wrote:

"Or are you saying that governments and corporations should work together to produce new technology?"

Meant NOT work together. They always have in the past, but that was bad for us I suppose.

- Jed



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BlankRichard wrote..
>Old Texan saying ,Kyle. People asking someone to give me something  "=20
>gimme sumpin" gets the reply " gimme's dead".


Jed wrote..
What exactly does this mean, in this context? Are you saying that=20
corporations should not design forward-looking products that consumers=20
want, or will soon want, as market conditions evolve? We should let the=20
Japanese and Chinese corporations do that instead, I suppose.

Or are you saying that governments and corporations should work together =
to=20
produce new technology? That would be an interesting change. In the =
U.S.,=20
government has been on the forefront of technology and development since =

the colonial period. Every major transportation technology, including=20
harbos, canals, steamships, railroads, subways, automobiles, airplanes =
and=20
automobiles, has been developed with government leadership and funding.=20
This sytem has worked splendidly for 300 years, but now -- for some =
unknown=20
reason -- you suggest it will not longer work.

Also, why do you call it a "giveaway" when the return on investment in=20
every case has been phenomenally good, for the government, citizens, and =

private industry alike?

I cannot understand this anti-technology, Luddite point of view. It is =
very=20
fortunate that in other countries, government and industry still plan =
and=20
build for the future. On NHK (Japan national TV) yesterday they showed a =

prototype electric automobile being developed at breakneck speed by the=20
power companies, Toyota and the government. It is based on the newest=20
batteries. The range is 200 km, and it recharges in 10 to 15 minutes. It =

will go on sale next year, and it should be available in the U.S. in =
three=20
years, just about the time the first serious U.S. hybrids hit the road, =
I=20
suppose. It is obviously lead to plug-in hybrids as well. The Chinese =
are=20
working on similar vehicles. Do you really think it would be best to sit =

and wait for Toyota and the Chinese to wipe out our auto industry? Or=20
should we respond 5 years too late to do any good, the way we responded =
to=20
crises in Iraq and New Orleans?

- Jed


Gosh Jed. all I wrote was that there is an old saying " gimme's dead" =
which is a standard reply to anyone asking you to give them something. I =
didn't include the US Govt in the comment.=20

However, considering the  local, state and federal government " =
organized response to Katrina", perhaps its time for us to look at =
another financial " vehicle" to carry us forward in the competivive =
world of energy and its expected resultant " fallout" for failure to =
sustain  progress in conservation of energy coupled with developing =
alternate energy applications and use.The US Government is "maxed " out =
of financial resources, this happened " before" Katrina.=20

Richard

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<DIV>Richard wrote..</DIV>
<P>&gt;Old Texan saying ,Kyle. People asking someone to give me =
something&nbsp;=20
" <BR>&gt;gimme sumpin" gets the reply " gimme's dead".<BR></P>
<P>Jed wrote..<BR>What exactly does this mean, in this context? Are you =
saying=20
that <BR>corporations should not design forward-looking products that =
consumers=20
<BR>want, or will soon want, as market conditions evolve? We should let =
the=20
<BR>Japanese and Chinese corporations do that instead, I =
suppose.<BR><BR>Or are=20
you saying that governments and corporations should work together to =
<BR>produce=20
new technology? That would be an interesting change. In the U.S., =
<BR>government=20
has been on the forefront of technology and development since <BR>the =
colonial=20
period. Every major transportation technology, including <BR>harbos, =
canals,=20
steamships, railroads, subways, automobiles, airplanes and =
<BR>automobiles, has=20
been developed with government leadership and funding. <BR>This sytem =
has worked=20
splendidly for 300 years, but now -- for some unknown <BR>reason -- you =
suggest=20
it will not longer work.<BR><BR>Also, why do you call it a "giveaway" =
when the=20
return on investment in <BR>every case has been phenomenally good, for =
the=20
government, citizens, and <BR>private industry alike?<BR><BR>I cannot =
understand=20
this anti-technology, Luddite point of view. It is very <BR>fortunate =
that in=20
other countries, government and industry still plan and <BR>build for =
the=20
future. On NHK (Japan national TV) yesterday they showed a <BR>prototype =

electric automobile being developed at breakneck speed by the <BR>power=20
companies, Toyota and the government. It is based on the newest =
<BR>batteries.=20
The range is 200 km, and it recharges in 10 to 15 minutes. It <BR>will =
go on=20
sale next year, and it should be available in the U.S. in three =
<BR>years, just=20
about the time the first serious U.S. hybrids hit the road, I =
<BR>suppose. It is=20
obviously lead to plug-in hybrids as well. The Chinese are <BR>working =
on=20
similar vehicles. Do you really think it would be best to sit <BR>and =
wait for=20
Toyota and the Chinese to wipe out our auto industry? Or <BR>should we =
respond 5=20
years too late to do any good, the way we responded to <BR>crises in =
Iraq and=20
New Orleans?<BR><BR>- Jed<BR></P>
<P>Gosh Jed. all I wrote was that there is an old saying " gimme's dead" =
which=20
is a standard reply to anyone asking you to give them something.&nbsp;I =
didn't=20
include&nbsp;the US Govt in the comment. </P>
<P>However, considering the&nbsp; local, state and federal government "=20
organized response to Katrina", perhaps its time for us to look at =
another=20
financial " vehicle" to carry us forward in the competivive world of =
energy and=20
its expected resultant " fallout" for failure to sustain&nbsp; progress =
in=20
conservation of energy coupled with developing alternate energy =
applications and=20
use.The US Government is "maxed " out of financial resources, this =
happened "=20
before" Katrina. </P>
<P>Richard</P></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep  5 07:20:20 2005
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<SNIP>

> I cannot understand this anti-technology, Luddite point of view.

Jed,  I totally agree.  A generation ago, the business establishment was 
calling environmentalists "luddites" for suppossedly opposing technological 
progress (I think they were just advocating an alternative approach).  But 
strangely, this whole "luddite" term has gone full circle and now it is the 
American business establishment that can rightly be accussed of being 
luddites for standing in the way of technological progress that might 
reorder the hydrcarbon society and affect their profits.  Businesses are 
more interested in just existing and protecting markets than solving 
problems or advancing to new technologies that might enhance life for 
everyone.  This struggle to implement alternative energy technologies that 
are growing increasingly practicle is an excellent example of this luddite 
resistence in our modern era.

> It is very fortunate that in other countries, government and industry 
> still plan and build for the future. On NHK (Japan national TV) yesterday 
> they showed a prototype electric automobile being developed at breakneck 
> speed by the power companies, Toyota and the government. It is based on 
> the newest batteries. The range is 200 km, and it recharges in 10 to 15 
> minutes. It will go on sale next year, and it should be available in the 
> U.S. in three years, just about the time the first serious U.S. hybrids 
> hit the road, I suppose. It is obviously lead to plug-in hybrids as well.

Thanks for the info.  Sounds very interesting.  We'll have to follow the 
developments.  We're not far off from the point where electric could replace 
gasoline as the most versatile and least expensive option for automobiles. 
If recharge times in the 10 to 15 minute range can be achieved by the 
Japanese, that is a huge step forward.  The range issues will quickly be 
worked out.  Recharge time is really the limiting factor for electric 
vehicles at this point (6 hours in a long time and impracticle for highway 
driving).

Electric makes sense for many reasons:

- Electric propulsion costs only about one-tenth of gasoline propulsion at 
the moment (you can travel the same distance for 1/10th the cost using 
electric, perhaps more with gas prices at $3.00+).
- Electric engines are simpler and cheaper to maintain than petrol engines.
- Pollution can be controlled at the point of electrical production and more 
easily controlled (ultimately we'd like to see that point of production be a 
renewable energy source like cold fusion).
- Switching to an electric vehicle energy distribution system would be 
rather easy.  The infrastructure is already in place.  Building charging 
stations isn't too complicated.  Certainly the electric infrastructure would 
have to be modernized, made more efficient and enhanced to handle the 
heavier load from electric cars, but those changes are long overdue anyway.

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These folks convert old junkers:

http://www.e-volks.com/index.html

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Subject: Re: Gasoline panic has begun in Atlanta
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RC Macaulay wrote:

>However, considering the  local, state and federal government " organized 
>response to Katrina", perhaps its time for us to look at another financial 
>" vehicle" to carry us forward in the competivive world of energy . . .

The government worked well in the past, and with proper leadership it can 
work well today. Of course industry must assume most of the risk and 
expense, as it has in the past.


>The US Government is "maxed " out of financial resources, this happened " 
>before" Katrina.

Well, it would only take a few billion dollars of government money to 
implement plug-in hybrids. Toyota spent $1 billion on the Prius, and it is 
more than halfway to an ideal plug-in.

In any case, I do not think the U.S. is broke. The U.S. government was 
running a surplus under Clinton. Things have not changed all that much 
since then. The only big expense is the war, which costs $1 billion per 
day. A $1 per gallon gasoline war tax would pay $400 million per day. This 
would also eliminate shortages, lines at the gas station, or the need to 
ration gasoline. The rest should come from an 80% war-time income tax on 
people who make more than $250,000 per year. If we are going to have a war, 
we have to pay for it. Two steps would fix the rest of the problem:

1. Rescind the tax cuts for everyone else.

2. Rescind recent trillion dollar giveaways to industry such as Starwars, 
subsidies for agribusiness and fossil fuel, and the $200 billion highway 
bill, that allocated $223 million for a bridge to nowhere in Alaska. Cancel 
all that stuff, plus the hot fusion program, and there would be plenty of 
money left over.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep  5 08:08:48 2005
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Buy Your EV Now
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Terry Blanton wrote:

>These folks convert old junkers:
>
>http://www.e-volks.com/index.html

Wonderful! It is a zany idea, but so were the first backyard hippy wind 
turbines in Denmark in the 1980s. A carpenter named Christian Riisager 
launched the Danish wind industry with a 22 kW backyard wind turbine, and 
now the industry employs 20,000 people and manufactures 3,100 MW 
(nameplate) per year, or the equivalent of 1.1 average U.S. nuclear power 
plants (actual). See:

http://www.windpower.org/en/pictures/eighties.htm

This site describes a Geo Metro conversion: "This Geo Metro EV has been 
clocked at just over 70mph at 96 vdc, with good cooling. The motor consumes 
approx. 120-150 amps on flat ground at cruising speed." That is better 
performance than the original equipment gasoline engine.

Describing the VW: "The Batteries can also be installed under the back seat 
or in the engine compartment if desired.Some have even cut out the top of 
the gas tank and installed 4 batteries there. This set-up is fully 
upgradeable to higher voltages, up to 96vdc and 16 batteries for a top 
speed of 70+ MPH and a range of up to 70 miles per charge. . . . Regen 
braking is inherant in this basic kit by simply down shifting , and 
watching the amp meter go backwards." I love it!!!

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep  5 08:16:07 2005
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From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk
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Subject: Re: My ISP hit by Katrina
Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 16:15:09 +0100 
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Good G.d cut the cr.p:

1) The internet is not about to fall over.
2) Global warming is bogus consensus science - plant more trees! Plankton
etc, would mop up the excess anyway.
http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=4391

3) The usual suspects racial stirring about the response to Katrina are just
agenda-bound a..h*les. Any country would have been overwhelmed. No, you just
need better flood defences!
4) There's loads of oil and car design is improving as are methods of oil
exploration. What we do is phase in technology for 50 years maybe. We're the
think ahead guys.
5) Yes you want to stop nutball regimes getting nukes and the softly, softly
diplomatic response is better (bring 'em in from the cold like Libya).
6) Human civilisation is not about to fall over, 50 people (RIP) die in
London terror attacks and life as we know it doesn't end.

Geez! It's an industry all this doom gloom cr.p. Just tell it like it is.

.......................................
Website
http://luna.bton.ac.uk/~roc1
.......................................

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep  5 08:25:40 2005
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From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk
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Subject: Petrol (Gas) prices
Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 16:24:44 +0100 
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Vo,

Petrol prices are marked up by the government to breach a hole in their
finances. Duty and VAT on UK fuel is over 80%. So next time you see a
government minister blaming the oil industry or 'the market' blame them. We
should have hypothecated taxes. Those people in N.O. should have a claim on
state and federal gov. to put back everything how it was (who's going to
insure you on a poorly maintained flood plain?, N.O. is a world heritage
site). You spend 1 billon a week in Iraq, 0.5 billion on the Waste Sh.ttle
every launch, 300 million crashing a bit of copper into a comet.

Incidentally, why do yanks call something that clearly is liquid at normal
temperatures 'Gas'. Do you call a grease gun a liquid gun? Oh, petrol vapour
must be plasma then. 

End-of-Rant
R.
.......................................
Website
http://luna.bton.ac.uk/~roc1
.......................................

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep  5 08:37:47 2005
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From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: LRP versus green petrol
Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 16:36:30 +0100 
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I love this one!

Lead replacement petrol (> 98 RON) is cheaper (by quite a margin) than green
regular fuel (95 RON). Not a lot of people know this but the LRP is much
better fuel. There is no leaded petrol in the UK now and so it won't damage
your stupid cat. (you know, that device that takes 10 minutes to warm up,
increases back pressure and spews heavy metal pollution out for children to
breath. Der, duh)

You'll have trouble getting the wider LRP nozzle into the narrow green
nozzle but I'm sure somebody could improvise something.
.......................................
Website
http://luna.bton.ac.uk/~roc1
.......................................

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep  5 09:17:52 2005
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Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2005 12:17:01 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: My ISP hit by Katrina
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R.O.Cornwall wrote:

>1) The internet is not about to fall over.

It fell over in Atlanta for some ISPs for about a week. It was annoying but 
hardly catastrophic.


>2) Global warming is bogus consensus science - plant more trees! Plankton
>etc, would mop up the excess anyway.

That is incorrect. In the U.S., annual fossil fuel energy production 
exceeds all of the solar energy converted by photosynthesis in the U.S., by 
a factor of two. Even if the U.S. could destroy all cities and highways 
plant trees in every square kilometer of open space, it would not "soak up" 
current CO2 production, and it would do nothing to reduce the burden of CO2 
added to the atmosphere over the last 200 years.

See: Pimentel & Pimentel, p. 21, Fig. 3.1.

As I pointed out in my book, after the world converts to cold fusion, we 
might then gradually sequester CO2 in new forests grown in former desert 
areas. If these trees were continually cut down and replaced with new trees 
before forests matured, so that they continued to sequester CO2 at maximum 
levels, each hectare would capture about 5 tons of carbon per year. 
Worldwide, it would take 7 years to sequester 1 year of CO2 production (at 
peak, late 20th century rates). Production was much lower before 1950, and 
ocean plants would also sequester large amounts. Overall, I think it would 
take about 300 to 500 year to totally reverse human CO2 production. Note 
that human activity has increased the CO2 concentration from 280 ppm before 
1750 to 375 ppm today.


 >Geez! It's an industry all this doom gloom cr.p. Just tell it like it is.

No one knows exactly how it is. No one can say for sure that we do -- or do 
not -- face doom. We cannot dismiss that possibility any more than people 
could in 1938 when faced with the Nazis. One thing is as certain now as it 
was then: if we do nothing, we WILL be destroyed. Our great grandchildren 
will drown in filth, disease and misery, the way they did in New Orleans 
last week and the way 2 billion people do every day around the world. What 
you saw on television was preview of your children's children's future, 
everywhere on earth, if we do not come to our senses and reverse the trends 
of civilization.

Countless civilizations have destroyed themselves by neglecting the 
environment. Iraq and the surrounding countries used to be known as the 
"fertile crescent" having the richest and most abundant agriculture on 
earth. Human activity in recorded history has converted most of this area 
to toxic desert wasteland. Since 1900, U.S. agriculture has destroyed about 
half the topsoil in Iowa, leaving old churches and other old buildings on 
islands 20 feet in the air, surrounded by sunken fields. In another century 
or two Iowa will look like Iraq. In the last 40 years people have destroyed 
30 percent of the world's arable land. (Pimentel, p. 175) Obviously this 
cannot go on. A solution must and will be found, but that does not mean it 
will be a happy solution. Either we will develop new technology to deal 
with these problems in a sane way, or the problems will deal with us -- and 
all cities and towns in the U.S. will permanently look like New Orleans did 
last week, and the way most of India and Africa look everywhere, every day. 
Rotting corpses, starvation, filth and open sewers will become an 
inescapable backdrop of daily life for all but a tiny wealthy elite.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep  5 09:30:18 2005
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Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 18:26:43 +0200
From: David Jonsson <davidjonssonsweden gmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Torque on planets from retarded gravity potentials
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Hi

Check this. 

David

------------------------------

_*A simple and approximate method to determine the gravitational
torque between two astronomical bodies.*_

_Introduction_
Bodies in space rotate slower the farther away from each other they are.

Look at
Sun                 Mercury          Venus
almost still       fast                not that fast

Also look at
Sun                 planet's left side            planet's right side
almost still        wants to move fast        wants to move not that fast

The left side of the planet want to move faster than the right side.
The reason is the same as in the case with several planets. If the
left side experiences a higher speed than the right we get an angular
momentum or a torque on the planet. The torque contributes to the
planets rotation around its own axis. The planets' rotation around
their axises is a mystery since this motion causes a lot of viscous
heat production in the planet slowing it down. The tidal force on the
planet would also cause it to slow down. Despite this the planets
continue to rotate. Lets see if the gravitational torque can explain
why.

_Calculation of the torque_
One way is to view how the position of the sun changes as gravity is
experienced in the front versus the back of the planet. Assume that
gravity moves at the speed of light, as many say. (There are evidence
against this showing it moves instantaneously. This is currently
ignored.)

Say the Sun is in horizontal position when viewed from the central of
Earth. This means the Sun will be a little above the horizon when
viewed from the equator (say it is midsummer's day for simplicity). On
midnight on the other side of earth the gravity of the Sun will be
experienced an equal distance below the horizon.

This little difference in experiencing the Sun will cause a little
tangential force on earth.


                                                               Earth at t1
Sun                                                         Earth at t0
                                                               Earth at t-1


The torque on earth is symmetrical in a plane through its axis. Lets
calculate the effect from that plane to the further end and multiply
by two.
Some values
R = distance between Sun and Earth
r = distance from Earths center
ft = tangential force on Earth
fs = Suns force on Earth
d = displacement of Earth seen from non rotating frame on earth.
vs = Earths speed relative the Sun
te = time elapsed since gravity passed Earths center = r/c
re = Earths radius

ft is proportional to d/R so
ft=fs*d/R (1)
The displacement d is determined by Earths speed and the time in takes
gravity to pass Earth so
d=vs*te=vs/c*r (2)

(2) in (1) makes
ft=fs*vs*te/R=fs*vs/c*r/R

Suns force fs on a an element dm of Earth mass
df=G Ms dm / R²
and the tangential component
dft=G Ms dm / R² *vs/c*r/R = vs/c r G Ms dm / R³

Earths mass per unit length
dm/dr = rho pi (re²-r²)

The torque is
T= r f
dT = r dft = r vs/c r G Ms dm / R³ = r² vs/c G Ms rho pi (re² - r²) dr / R³
T=2 vs/c G Ms rho pi / R³ integral (r=0 to re) r² (re² - r²) dr =
T=2 vs/c G Ms rho pi / R³  (r=0 to re of) (re² r³/3 - r^5/5) =
T=4 vs/c G Ms rho pi / R³ re^5/15

This formula is general for any two bodies. The power is P = T*omega
where omega is the angular velocity of Earth around its axis. Lets
calculate it to see if it corresponds with the observed value of
Earths heat production 500 W/m² equal to 2.5*10^17 watts.

Omega for Earth in radians per seconds is 2 pi / 86400
For earth P = T omega =
4*10^8/365/86400/3/10^8*6.7*10^-11*2*10^30*5515*3.14/(1.5*10^11)^3*(6.3*10^6)^5/15*2*3.14/86400
= 1.4*10^12 watt = 1 400 gigawatt

Far too little by a factor 10 000. Maybe I did something wrong? Is
gravitational torque really this small? Please correct me in that
case.

David

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From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk
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Subject: Global warming
Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 17:34:27 +0100 
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Jed and Vo,
One has to avoid the shock-horror disaster tactics because the public will
get sick off it. Remember Y2K and all that?

Yes, plan new technology but don't pull the public's collective plonker.
Don't cry wolf.
R.

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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: YK2 was an unmitigated engineering disaster
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R.O.Cornwall wrote:

>One has to avoid the shock-horror disaster tactics because the public will
>get sick off it. Remember Y2K and all that?

Y2K was an unmitigated disaster. It was one of the worse engineering 
screw-ups in recorded history. Billions -- possibly hundreds of billions -- 
had to be spent to solve a problem that should have been fixed at no cost 
in the 1970s and '80s during routine software maintenance.

I would not cite that as an example of a problem that wasn't a problem! If 
our major technology screws up that badly every decade we will be in a 
permanent state of crisis, diverting a large fraction of our economy to 
dealing with problems that should have been nipped in the bud. You can see 
the same dynamic at work in any bridge in Atlanta. Grass and weeds grows 
along the sides of the road, and out from the middle of the road. This 
shows that the gutters are full of dirt, which means the steel under the 
bridge is continually wet, and it being destroyed. Bridges which should 
last 50 to 100 years will not last 10 years under these conditions. In New 
York City, there are bridges with one-inch thick steel beams that are so 
weak and rusted you can push a screwdriver through them. If one person 
would come round twice a year with a hoe and a shovel to clean out the dirt 
and dig up the weeds, these bridges would last for decades. But that does 
not happen.

We neglect infrastructure because people do not want to pay taxes. So in a 
few years we will pay $20 million to replace a bridge that could be saved 
for $100 today. In New Orleans, the levees were neglected for decades. $50 
million in preventive maintenance would have prevented $20 billion in flood 
damage and saved thousands of lives. But Democratic and Republican 
administrations at the state and national level ignored the problem. Then 
the money was diverted to war. Quoting the New York Times: "In June 2004, 
Walter Maestri, emergency management chief for Jefferson Parish, fretted to 
The Times-Picayune in New Orleans: 'It appears that the money has been 
moved in the president's budget to handle homeland security and the war in 
Iraq, and I suppose that's the price we pay. Nobody locally is happy that 
the levees can't be finished, and we are doing everything we can to make 
the case that this is a security issue for us.'"

Of course Y2K did not cause any nightmare accidents or explosions, but I 
did not know a single credible expert who thought it would. In the late 
'90s, many people -- including me -- went on record predicting with great 
confidence that nothing like that would happen. Outside of James Bond 
movies, critical industrial systems are better engineered than that. What 
did happen was a monumental waste of money productivity and thousands of 
man-years of programmer's time. That's bad enough!

It was an economic disaster, as was the Three Mile Island accident. 
Everyone who is technically literate knows that TMI did not cause any 
physical harm to the community or the people, even though a third of the 
reactor core melted. It came close to a catastrophic release of material 
which would have killed tens of thousands of people, but disaster was 
averted. But the damage was horrible anyway. It wiped out billions of 
dollars in assets, equivalent to the life savings of hundreds of thousands 
of people. It nearly bankrupted the power company, and overnight it 
significantly reduced US generator capacity, and destroyed the nuclear 
power industry. That's a disaster, if anything is.


>Yes, plan new technology but don't pull the public's collective plonker.
>Don't cry wolf.

If Y2K was not a wolf, what would be? It probably cost more than hurricane 
Katrina, for crying out loud.

- Jed


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Subject: Re: Global warming
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From: <R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk>
Subject: Global warming


> Jed and Vo,
> One has to avoid the shock-horror disaster tactics because the public will
> get sick off it. Remember Y2K and all that?
>
> Yes, plan new technology but don't pull the public's collective plonker.
> Don't cry wolf.
> R.
-------------------------------------
This particular rant is very short of a full deck. The Y2K crises was
averted by *very* intense activity by *many* programmers in *many*
responsible industries to find and correct the old computer code that could
have cuased some very nasty results. Those warnings *were* heeded by
responsible management.

The repeated warnings of levee collapse *were ignored* by politicians and
administrators.

Jed has been reading Jered Diamond's "Collapse", a very thoughtful book
about how human societies have made choices leading to failure. And Diamond
makes clear that it isn't the greedy management of the big bad corproations
which are so glibly caricatured that does the dirty work. It is all of us,
the stockholders who want effortless profits from the corporations, and the
legislators who want greedy citizens to re-elect them, that set these wheels
in motion.

As Pogo said, "We have met the enemy, and he is us". The finger of greed
points in all directions.

Mike Carrell





>
>
>
>



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep  5 11:04:35 2005
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Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2005 14:03:39 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Global warming
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Mike Carrell wrote:

>The Y2K crises was
>averted by *very* intense activity by *many* programmers in *many*
>responsible industries to find and correct the old computer code that could
>have cuased some very nasty results. Those warnings *were* heeded by
>responsible management.

That's true, although as I said it was not "averted" so much as confronted 
and paid for -- paid for through the nose. As I said, responsible 
management took care of the problem in the 1980s during routine 
maintenance. Since programs have to be updated anyway, the extra work cost 
practically nothing. I recall that it took me only a few days to replace 
and test all of the date routines in a large software package. It was easy 
because I write modular, object-oriented code with only one set of routines 
for all data-and-time procedures. Nowadays all software is written in this 
style.

Some older programs in COBOL were disorganized, with date routines repeated 
in different ways, and many different methods of inputting and printing 
dates scattered around the code. And they used the infamous 2-digit-year 
dates, something I never did, even back in 1978. (I used Julian dates.) 
This probably would have cost a great deal of money to fix even in 1982, 
which I suppose is why it was neglected until 1998 by some companies, when 
it had to be done in a rush job. It was even more difficult in some cases 
because the source code was lost.

Faced with this problem, many corporations decided to throw away the COBOL 
programs and mainframe hardware, and start over from scratch with personal 
computer hardware. This was probably cheaper in the long run. They had to 
make the transition sooner or later. In that respect, the Y2K crisis did 
produce side benefits, by forcing the widespread adaption of modern 
hardware and software. This is analogous to saying that a hurricane 
sometimes helps city planners upgrade the sewers and power systems, because 
all the houses are knocked to pieces and bulldozed out of the way.

- Jed


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In the spirit of light-hearted indivisibility, this meandering post is =
brought to you by the number "Seven"....

Nowhere is the merger of art and science more 'integrated' ....than in =
numerology, the study of numbers. For instance, the subject of "alpha," =
the fine structure constant is endlessly fascinating. The "vesica =
pisces" (and the square root of three) has been the subject of numerous =
vortex postings. "Seven" is a number that is entrenched in mysticism at =
many levels - but why?=20

Unlike alpha, the number seven is more a function of human mentality =
than a universal truth.  There are seven wonders of the world, the seven =
seas, seven deadly sins, seven daughters in the Pleiades (or the seven =
sisters ruling the Petrocracy), the seven ages of man, the seven year =
itch, the seven circles of hell, the seven primary colors, the seven =
notes of the musical scale, and of course, the seven days of the week - =
to mention only a few of the human-based-connections? Is there an =
objective, scientific 'seven' in there somewhere ?

Some of the human 7-connection is based on the seven categories for =
absolute judgment, the seven objects in the span of attention, and the =
seven digits in the span of immediate memory - if you subscribe to =
Psycho-Today or its cousins. Perhaps there is something deeper and more =
scientific behind all these sevens, something just calling out for us to =
discover it, but I suspect that it is only a pernicious, Pythagorean =
coincidence - just as George Miller surmises. As for the seven days in =
the week thing - and the warped idea 'religious right' that it is a =
"truth" and a biblical thing, see the footnote below.

In 1956 George Miller wrote an interesting article for the Psychological =
Review (not P.T.) called "The magical number seven, plus or minus two, =
some limits on our capacity to process information"=20
http://www.well.com/user/smalin/miller.html=20

In the article Miller cites many different studies that demonstrate the =
human mind's capacity to hold and deal effectively with only seven =
objects in short-term memory simultaneously. Is that one factor why =
ancient man chose a week of seven days (that and the approximate =
lunar-quarter-cycle-connection)
=20
This sevenfold limitation of the human mind is amplified (ameliorated) =
by technology - and that could be one of the powers of the internet and =
personal computing. The magic number 200 seems to figure in as the =
"aided" ability to process information (using technology). Dave McComb =
has written that somewhere around 200 items seems to be the optimum =
number of interrelated things we can deal with at one time, when dealing =
with complex systems. Specifically, that the human mind coupled with =
external aids is capable of dealing with several hundred items =
simultaneously in its "near-term" memory. Beyond that is there anything =
more scientific involving 7 and 200?

The so-called microwave hydrogen line (1420.40575 MHz) is the precession =
frequency of neutral hydrogen atoms (para-ortho) the most abundant =
"visible" substance in the universe. The lifetime in our 3-space of =
"real" ortho-Ps has been found to be about 141.88 ns (Nico et al. 1990) =
over a thousand times longer than para. However, it is possible that the =
effective mass in the "invisible universe, of Ps is about 7x that of =
Hydrogen - based on the suspected connection of Ps to "dark matter" =
although admittedly this is not comparing apples to apples.  A frequency =
of about 7 (7.05) MHz which is related to the ortho-Ps lifetime, might =
figure into that overall picture somewhere (10^9/141.88) but is it =
related to hydrogen ? Hmm....within the margin of error the ratio is =
surprisingly close to 200... which is just another round number and a =
coincidence, right?


You can see how easy it is easy to blow these numerology things out of =
all proportion... matter of fact, that is almost biblical, no?   (is =
that "proportion" comment scroll-worthy  ;-)
www.doobybrain.com/history/sidescroll/bigroll.jpg

Jones


Oh yeah, About the seven days. The first thing to understand is that a =
week of seven days is a fairly recent cultural invention and did not =
originate in the Bible, despite what some pulpit thumpers want to tell =
you. In pre-literate societies weeks were typically the interval from =
one market day to the next. Four to 10 days gave farmers and herders =
enough time to accumulate and transport goods to sell. The *market day* =
is the basic need being met by the entire original concept of the =
"week." There is nothing there related to divinity (at least not on the =
surface).

The Bible story begins with the creation of the universe: "In the =
beginning God created the heavens and the earth" but the first account =
of "Seven Days Of Creation," was written by the Hebrews when they were =
in present day Iraq - there is no written account of it before that. =
This idea, like much of the Old Testament was "borrowed" from the where =
else - what is today Iraq. Is that irony lost in today's geopolitics, or =
not?

At least 700 years before Moses - around 2350 BC the famous king Sargon =
I, King of Akkad, having conquered Ur and the other cities of Sumeria =
(later Babylon, later Iraq), instituted a seven-day week, the first to =
be recorded in human history, although in India and China there is =
evidence of coincidental synchronicity. The Jewish calendar, and much of =
biblical mythology, began following the Babylonian captivity, even if it =
was attributed to Moses earlier. At any rate there is no possible way =
that the idea originated with the Hebrews - chosen or not - they were =
not yet even a tribe when the 7-day week was invented.

The 7-day week was later introduced to Rome in the first century A.D. by =
Persian astrology gurus, not by Christians or Jews. The astrological =
need for it was that there would be a day for the five known planets =
plus the sun and the moon, making seven; but this was an ancient idea =
from the East, based on a recurring market-day. However, when =
Christianity became the official religion of the Roman empire in the =
time of Constantine (~ 325 A.D.), the familiar Hebrew-Christian week of =
7 days, beginning on Sunday, became conflated with the pagan week and =
took its place in the Julian calendar.  Thereafter, it seemed to =
Christians that the week Rome now observed was seamless with the 7-day =
week of the Bible and ever since it has been linked, incorrectly, to the =
Genesis myth. The pagan roots are obvious in the English names of the =
days: Saturn's day, Sun's day, Moon's day and the pagan names which =
somehow incorporate Norse mythology.

Demonstrating once again that all of history, and some of science, is =
written by the winners (of real wars and culture wars)....

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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><!--StartFragment -->In the spirit of =
light-hearted=20
indivisibility, this meandering post is brought to you by the number=20
</FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>"Seven"....</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Nowhere is the merger of art and =
science more=20
'integrated' ....than in numerology, the study of numbers. For instance, =
the=20
subject of "alpha," the fine structure constant is endlessly =
fascinating. The=20
"vesica pisces" (and the square root of three) has been the subject of =
numerous=20
vortex postings. "Seven" is a number that is entrenched in mysticism at =
many=20
levels - but why?&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Unlike alpha, the number seven is more =
a function=20
of human mentality than a universal truth.&nbsp; There are seven wonders =
of the=20
world, the seven seas, seven deadly sins, seven daughters in the =
Pleiades (or=20
the seven sisters ruling the Petrocracy), the seven ages of man, the =
seven year=20
itch, the seven circles of hell, the seven primary colors, the seven =
notes of=20
the musical scale, and of course, the seven days of the week - to =
mention only a=20
few of the human-based-connections? Is there an =
objective,&nbsp;scientific=20
'seven' in there somewhere ?<BR><BR>Some of the human 7-connection is =
based on=20
the seven categories for absolute judgment, the seven objects in the =
span of=20
attention, and the seven digits in the span of immediate memory - if you =

subscribe to Psycho-Today or its cousins. Perhaps there is something =
deeper and=20
more scientific behind all these sevens, something just calling out for =
us to=20
discover it, but I suspect that it is only a pernicious, Pythagorean =
coincidence=20
- just as George Miller surmises. As for the seven days in the week =
thing - and=20
the warped idea 'religious right' that it is a "truth" and a biblical =
thing, see=20
the footnote below.<BR><BR>In 1956 George Miller wrote an interesting =
article=20
for the Psychological Review (not P.T.) called "The magical number =
seven, plus=20
or minus two, some limits on our capacity to process information" <BR><A =

href=3D"http://www.well.com/user/smalin/miller.html">http://www.well.com/=
user/smalin/miller.html</A>=20
</FONT></DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>
<DIV><BR>In the article Miller cites many different studies that =
demonstrate the=20
human mind's capacity to hold and deal effectively with only seven =
objects in=20
short-term memory simultaneously. Is that one factor why ancient man =
chose a=20
week of seven days (that and the approximate=20
lunar-quarter-cycle-connection)<BR>&nbsp;<BR>This sevenfold limitation =
of the=20
human mind&nbsp;is amplified (ameliorated) by technology - and that =
could be one=20
of the powers of the internet and personal computing. The magic number =
200 seems=20
to figure in as the "aided" ability to process information (using =
technology).=20
Dave McComb has written that somewhere around 200 items seems to be the =
optimum=20
number of interrelated things we can deal with at one time, when dealing =
with=20
complex systems. Specifically, that the human mind coupled with external =
aids is=20
capable of dealing with several hundred items simultaneously in its =
"near-term"=20
memory. Beyond that is there anything more scientific involving 7 and =
200?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The so-called microwave hydrogen line (1420.40575 MHz) is the =
precession=20
frequency of neutral hydrogen atoms (para-ortho) the most abundant =
"visible"=20
substance in the universe.&nbsp;The lifetime in our 3-space of "real" =
ortho-Ps=20
has been found to be about 141.88 ns (Nico et al. 1990) over a thousand =
times=20
longer than para. However, it is possible that the effective mass in the =

"invisible universe, of Ps is about 7x that of Hydrogen - based on the =
suspected=20
connection of Ps to "dark matter" although admittedly this is not =
comparing=20
apples to apples.&nbsp; <FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>A frequency of about =
7 (7.05)=20
MHz which is related to the ortho-Ps lifetime, might figure into that =
overall=20
picture&nbsp;somewhere (10^9/141.88) but is it related to hydrogen ?=20
</FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hmm....within the margin of error the =
ratio is=20
surprisingly close to 200... which is just another round number and=20
a&nbsp;coincidence, right?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><BR>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>You can see how easy it is easy to blow these numerology things out =
of all=20
proportion... matter of fact,&nbsp;that is almost biblical, no?&nbsp; =
&nbsp;(is=20
that "proportion" comment scroll-worthy&nbsp;&nbsp;;-)</DIV>
<DIV><A=20
href=3D"http://www.doobybrain.com/history/sidescroll/bigroll.jpg">www.doo=
bybrain.com/history/sidescroll/bigroll.jpg</A></DIV>
<DIV><BR>Jones<BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Oh yeah, About the seven days. The first thing to understand is =
that a week=20
of seven days is a fairly recent cultural invention and did not =
originate in the=20
Bible, despite what some pulpit thumpers want to tell you. In =
pre-literate=20
societies weeks were typically the interval from one market day to the =
next.=20
Four to 10 days gave farmers and herders enough time to accumulate and =
transport=20
goods to sell. The *market day* is the basic need being met by the =
entire=20
original concept of the "week." There is nothing there related to =
divinity (at=20
least not on the surface).</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The Bible story begins with the creation of the universe: "In the =
beginning=20
God created the heavens and the earth" but the first account of "Seven =
Days Of=20
Creation," was written&nbsp;by the Hebrews&nbsp;when they were in =
present day=20
Iraq - there is no written account of it before that.&nbsp;This idea, =
like much=20
of the Old Testament was "borrowed" from the where else - what is today =
Iraq. Is=20
that irony lost in today's geopolitics, or not?<BR><BR>At least 700 =
years before=20
Moses - around 2350 BC the famous king Sargon I, King of Akkad, having =
conquered=20
Ur and the other cities of Sumeria (later Babylon, later Iraq), =
instituted a=20
seven-day week, the first to be recorded in human history, although in =
India and=20
China there is evidence of coincidental synchronicity. The Jewish =
calendar, and=20
much of biblical mythology,&nbsp;began following the Babylonian =
captivity, even=20
if it was attributed to Moses earlier. At any rate there is no possible =
way=20
that&nbsp;the idea&nbsp;originated with the Hebrews - chosen or not - =
they were=20
not yet even a tribe when the 7-day week was invented.<BR><BR>The 7-day =
week was=20
later introduced to Rome in the first century A.D. by Persian astrology =
gurus,=20
not by Christians or Jews. The astrological need for it was that there =
would be=20
a day for the five known planets plus the sun and the moon, making =
seven; but=20
this was an ancient idea from the East, based on a recurring market-day. =

However, when Christianity became the official religion of the Roman =
empire in=20
the time of Constantine (~ 325 A.D.), the familiar Hebrew-Christian week =
of 7=20
days, beginning on Sunday, became conflated with the pagan week and took =
its=20
place in the Julian calendar.&nbsp; Thereafter, it seemed to Christians =
that the=20
week Rome now observed was seamless with the 7-day week of the Bible and =
ever=20
since it has been linked, incorrectly, to the Genesis myth. The pagan =
roots are=20
obvious in the English names of the days: Saturn's day, Sun's day, =
Moon's day=20
and the pagan names which somehow incorporate Norse mythology.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Demonstrating once again that all of&nbsp;history, and some of =
science, is=20
written by the winners (of real wars and culture wars)....</DIV>
<DIV></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Jones Beene asks.


" "Seven" is a number that is entrenched in mysticism at many levels - but why? "

Because it is the result of dividing the "42",  the answer Arthur Dent got when he asked the computer
the meaning of life by 6 ?   

http://www.bbc.co.uk/cult/hitchhikers/guide/answer.shtml


If you want the"Ultimate Answer" sooner,  ask Jed.  :-)

Frederick
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<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<P>
<DIV>Jones Beene asks.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>" "Seven" is a number that is entrenched in mysticism at many levels - but why?&nbsp;"</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Because it is the result of dividing the "42", &nbsp;the answer Arthur Dent got when he asked the computer</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>the meaning of life by 6 ?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/cult/hitchhikers/guide/answer.shtml">http://www.bbc.co.uk/cult/hitchhikers/guide/answer.shtml</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>If you want the"Ultimate Answer" sooner, &nbsp;ask Jed.&nbsp; :-)</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Frederick</DIV>
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From: "Jed Rothwell" <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: OFF TOPIC Chimpanzee genome decoded


> Just like us, almost. See:
>
> http://www.wired.com/news/medtech/0,1286,68706,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_10
>
> QUOTE:
>
> "[Human and chimp] DNA remains highly similar -- about 96 percent to
almost
> 99 percent identical, depending on how the comparison is made.

I think what is talked about here are the genes, which comprise only a quite
small portion of the actual DNA, the rest once regarded as "junk", not
conserved, and so used for individual identification. I have seen mention
that the genes encode for the proteins common throughout many species as
"building material", and the "junk" is the much more complex assembly
instructions on how to make a human or a chimp. We eat the building material
provided by other organisms, and rearrange it accoring to our own building
plans.

Mike Carrell



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BlankWhiler on the subject of number, consider the Roman numerals and =
their system of  1 thru V thru X. Where is the zero?. Ever asked =
yourself how the Romans posessed the technology to construct complex =
works like arches, bridges, etc without possessing the mathematics which =
requires a zero for computation? Hmmm

Richard


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<DIV>Whiler on the subject of number, consider the Roman numerals and =
their=20
system of&nbsp; 1 thru V thru X. Where is the zero?. Ever asked yourself =
how the=20
Romans posessed the technology to construct complex works like arches, =
bridges,=20
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Hmmm</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Richard</DIV>
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Subject: Re: Torque on planets from retarded gravity potentials
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I think the universe is self-winding.

However, Newton's laws of motion are not consistent with this intuition.
Newton realised that according to his mechanics God's clock-work universe
was winding down so God would need to intervene periodically to wind things
up. Leibniz mocked Newton: If God was a perfect clock maker why would he
have mad such an imperfect clock?

Then Laplace declared God was irrelevant to physics and eventually the
winding down of the universe became enshrined as a law of nature -- the
second law of thermodynamics.


Harry

David Jonsson wrote:

> Hi
> 
> Check this. 
> 
> David
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> _*A simple and approximate method to determine the gravitational
> torque between two astronomical bodies.*_
> 
> _Introduction_
> Bodies in space rotate slower the farther away from each other they are.
> 
> Look at
> Sun                 Mercury          Venus
> almost still       fast                not that fast
> 
> Also look at
> Sun                 planet's left side            planet's right side
> almost still        wants to move fast        wants to move not that fast
> 
> The left side of the planet want to move faster than the right side.
> The reason is the same as in the case with several planets. If the
> left side experiences a higher speed than the right we get an angular
> momentum or a torque on the planet. The torque contributes to the
> planets rotation around its own axis. The planets' rotation around
> their axises is a mystery since this motion causes a lot of viscous
> heat production in the planet slowing it down. The tidal force on the
> planet would also cause it to slow down. Despite this the planets
> continue to rotate. Lets see if the gravitational torque can explain
> why.
> 
> _Calculation of the torque_
> One way is to view how the position of the sun changes as gravity is
> experienced in the front versus the back of the planet. Assume that
> gravity moves at the speed of light, as many say. (There are evidence
> against this showing it moves instantaneously. This is currently
> ignored.)
> 
> Say the Sun is in horizontal position when viewed from the central of
> Earth. This means the Sun will be a little above the horizon when
> viewed from the equator (say it is midsummer's day for simplicity). On
> midnight on the other side of earth the gravity of the Sun will be
> experienced an equal distance below the horizon.
> 
> This little difference in experiencing the Sun will cause a little
> tangential force on earth.
> 
> 
> Earth at t1
> Sun                                                         Earth at t0
> Earth at t-1
> 
> 
> The torque on earth is symmetrical in a plane through its axis. Lets
> calculate the effect from that plane to the further end and multiply
> by two.
> Some values
> R = distance between Sun and Earth
> r = distance from Earths center
> ft = tangential force on Earth
> fs = Suns force on Earth
> d = displacement of Earth seen from non rotating frame on earth.
> vs = Earths speed relative the Sun
> te = time elapsed since gravity passed Earths center = r/c
> re = Earths radius
> 
> ft is proportional to d/R so
> ft=fs*d/R (1)
> The displacement d is determined by Earths speed and the time in takes
> gravity to pass Earth so
> d=vs*te=vs/c*r (2)
> 
> (2) in (1) makes
> ft=fs*vs*te/R=fs*vs/c*r/R
> 
> Suns force fs on a an element dm of Earth mass
> df=G Ms dm / R²
> and the tangential component
> dft=G Ms dm / R² *vs/c*r/R = vs/c r G Ms dm / R³
> 
> Earths mass per unit length
> dm/dr = rho pi (re²-r²)
> 
> The torque is
> T= r f
> dT = r dft = r vs/c r G Ms dm / R³ = r² vs/c G Ms rho pi (re² - r²) dr / R³
> T=2 vs/c G Ms rho pi / R³ integral (r=0 to re) r² (re² - r²) dr =
> T=2 vs/c G Ms rho pi / R³  (r=0 to re of) (re² r³/3 - r^5/5) =
> T=4 vs/c G Ms rho pi / R³ re^5/15
> 
> This formula is general for any two bodies. The power is P = T*omega
> where omega is the angular velocity of Earth around its axis. Lets
> calculate it to see if it corresponds with the observed value of
> Earths heat production 500 W/m² equal to 2.5*10^17 watts.
> 
> Omega for Earth in radians per seconds is 2 pi / 86400
> For earth P = T omega =
> 4*10^8/365/86400/3/10^8*6.7*10^-11*2*10^30*5515*3.14/(1.5*10^11)^3*(6.3*10^6)^
> 5/15*2*3.14/86400
> = 1.4*10^12 watt = 1 400 gigawatt
> 
> Far too little by a factor 10 000. Maybe I did something wrong? Is
> gravitational torque really this small? Please correct me in that
> case.
> 
> David
> 


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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: New Orleans: 80 percent of the city under water
Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2005 15:20:55 +1000
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <gp9qh1hpjm1ddmmpm2cc27voganrpl8ine 4ax.com>
References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050830184351.029b8748 mail.newenergytimes.com> <016001c5add1$339107c0$a4b1e118@D54BYG11> <6.2.1.2.2.20050831094228.04b64140@pop.mindspring.com> <4318855F.1000400@pobox.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050902131511.04b38da0@pop.mindspring.com>
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In reply to  Jed Rothwell's message of Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:19:26
-0400:
Hi,

The Australian CSIRO has determined that Relenza (See
http://www.fda.gov/cder/news/relenza/default.htm ) is effective
against avian flue. 

[snip]
>Things like polio and tsunamis are natural in origin, obviously, but the 
>fact that they still kill large numbers of people nowadays is entirely our 
>fault. Avian flu cannot be prevented. It will probably cross over to our 
>species eventually. It will kill hundreds of thousands of people -- mainly 
>sick, old people, we hope. That is normal for any new form of influenza, 
>and it cannot be prevented. But if it kills millions of healthy young 
>people that will be our fault. That can probably be prevented with proper 
>public health measures and intense research now, while there is still time. 
[snip]
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

In a town full of candlestick makers, 
everyone lives in the light,
In a town full of thieves, 
there is only one candle, 
and everyone lives in the night.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep  5 23:06:18 2005
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Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2005 02:05:08 -0500
From: Harry Veeder <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: "self-winding" universe
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I wrote in thread Re: Torque on planets from retarded gravity potentials:

> 
> I think the universe is self-winding.
> 
> However, Newton's laws of motion are not consistent with this intuition.
> Newton realised that according to his mechanics God's clock-work universe
> was winding down so God would need to intervene periodically to wind things
> up. Leibniz mocked Newton: If God was a perfect clock maker why would he
> have mad such an imperfect clock?
> 
> Then Laplace declared God was irrelevant to physics and eventually the
> winding down of the universe became enshrined as a law of nature -- the
> second law of thermodynamics.
> 


That wasn't expressed very well. Here is a revised version...

I think the universe is "self-winding".

However, Newton's laws of motion are not consistent with this intuition.
Newton realised that according to his mechanics a clock-work universe
was winding down so God would need to intervene periodically to wind things
up. 

Leibniz thought this was silly, because if God is perfect and he made the
clock-work universe why would God make an imperfect clock?

Then Laplace declared God was irrelevant to physics and eventually the
winding down of the universe became enshrined as a law of nature -- the
second law of thermodynamics.


Harry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep  6 00:56:43 2005
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Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2005 17:55:59 +1000
From: Wesley Bruce <wesleybruce iinet.net.au>
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I like your argument but the idea of a system that self winds at the 
level on gravity potentials may be looking at the wrong level. May 
science fiction writers have argued in favor of civilizations that can 
manipulate the cosmos technologically. God may indeed have added a 
winder to the universe, humanity. Who knows what we might have achieved 
if Adam and Eve had not stuffed things up a little at the start. What 
might we achieve if God restores all things. I think we may find some 
thing radical in cosmology that to one person would be a quirk of 
probability but to Christian space cadets like me an indicator of Gods 
providence. I'm expecting lots of interesting things in the future.

Harry Veeder wrote:

>I wrote in thread Re: Torque on planets from retarded gravity potentials:
>
>  
>
>>I think the universe is self-winding.
>>
>>However, Newton's laws of motion are not consistent with this intuition.
>>Newton realised that according to his mechanics God's clock-work universe
>>was winding down so God would need to intervene periodically to wind things
>>up. Leibniz mocked Newton: If God was a perfect clock maker why would he
>>have mad such an imperfect clock?
>>
>>Then Laplace declared God was irrelevant to physics and eventually the
>>winding down of the universe became enshrined as a law of nature -- the
>>second law of thermodynamics.
>>
>>    
>>
>
>
>That wasn't expressed very well. Here is a revised version...
>
>I think the universe is "self-winding".
>
>However, Newton's laws of motion are not consistent with this intuition.
>Newton realised that according to his mechanics a clock-work universe
>was winding down so God would need to intervene periodically to wind things
>up. 
>
>Leibniz thought this was silly, because if God is perfect and he made the
>clock-work universe why would God make an imperfect clock?
>
>Then Laplace declared God was irrelevant to physics and eventually the
>winding down of the universe became enshrined as a law of nature -- the
>second law of thermodynamics.
>
>
>Harry
>
>  
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep  6 02:55:56 2005
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Ancient history revisited.

I was stationed at "Site Baker" from Jan 52 to April 53. Keeping
the radio transmitters (up by the radio tower) online.

I also hold the world's record for outrunning a two-ton atomic
artillery shell mounted on a 4-wheel dolly (~ 15 kiloton yield) in a sloping tunnel.  It was one that President Truman was thinking about using in Korea. When it
hit the dirt outside the tunnel it rolled over, but didn't detonate. But the military
brass almost did when I was investigated for not knowing the laws of momentum at the time.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/facility/killeen.htm


Lt. Robert Gray in Jimmy Doolittle's April 1942 raid on Tokyo about
4 months after Pearl Harbor:

http://www.homeofheroes.com/wings/part2/01_doolittle_raiders.html

Frederick
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8
Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

<HTML style="FONT-SIZE: x-small; FONT-FAMILY: MS Sans Serif"><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=windows-1251">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<P>
<DIV>Ancient history revisited.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>I was stationed at "Site Baker" from Jan 52 to April 53. Keeping</DIV>
<DIV>the radio transmitters (up by the radio tower) online.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>I also hold the world's record for outrunning a two-ton atomic</DIV>
<DIV>artillery shell mounted on a 4-wheel dolly (~ 15 kiloton yield) in a sloping tunnel.&nbsp; It was one that President Truman was thinking about using in Korea. When it</DIV>
<DIV>hit the dirt outside the tunnel it rolled over, but didn't detonate. But the military</DIV>
<DIV>brass almost did when I was investigated for not knowing the laws of momentum at the time.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/facility/killeen.htm">http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/facility/killeen.htm</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Lt. Robert Gray in Jimmy Doolittle's April 1942 raid on Tokyo about</DIV>
<DIV>4 months after Pearl Harbor:<BR></DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://www.homeofheroes.com/wings/part2/01_doolittle_raiders.html">http://www.homeofheroes.com/wings/part2/01_doolittle_raiders.html</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Frederick</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<P></P></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8--


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep  6 02:57:32 2005
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From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk
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Yes Jed I agree on several points:

Y2K was man-made and avoidable. Yes the action probably prevented a lot of
difficulties (everyone complains when there is lack of service but takes it
for granted when it works...) but the gurus still kept on saying, even in
spite of the works that it was doom and gloom. This damages economies.

On taxes, I don't mind paying if it can't be done in the private sector and
every opportunity is made to sub-contract the work to the private sector.
Economists have a term for this that I can't remember - when competition
doesn't apply and it is best done by the public sector.

On science: I am trying to find the link for the 'spectrum of science' I
think it was on a Nasa website, it went something like this:-

Conjecture Hypothesis Theory Fact

Global warming like most things in science *under investigation* is properly
a hypothesis some would call it conjecture.

What is wrong is to plunge the world into recession on the whim of someone's
*pet theory* with all the usual carpet baggers and shysters tagging along
believing that in numbers they can shout down dissent, or that so many
people believe it must be right.

*Nothing exists* to implement Kyoto apart from nuclear power. Nuclear power
is *engineering* and with the blueprints for a power station, one can be
built in five years. That's what they should be doing.

Now if you are concerned about the little man and wealth being concentrated
in a few hands, let me tell you, the rich always weather the storm (heh).
All this global warming nonsense will do is start a world recession and
condemn people to poverty.

Scientists have a responsibility to act in the correct manner unless the
public lose *faith* in them.
Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep  6 03:00:24 2005
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Mike, your tone is patronising.

Y2K was hype to get programmers jobs and make academics look clever. Yes it
did ameliorate to some extent BUT the spiel was that it was all too late and
global meltdown was imminent.

All we ask is proportion and measure in public announcements.   

-----Original Message-----
From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On
Behalf Of Mike Carrell
Sent: 05 September 2005 18:11
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Global warming


From: <R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk>
Subject: Global warming


> Jed and Vo,
> One has to avoid the shock-horror disaster tactics because the public will
> get sick off it. Remember Y2K and all that?
>
> Yes, plan new technology but don't pull the public's collective plonker.
> Don't cry wolf.
> R.
-------------------------------------
This particular rant is very short of a full deck. The Y2K crises was
averted by *very* intense activity by *many* programmers in *many*
responsible industries to find and correct the old computer code that could
have cuased some very nasty results. Those warnings *were* heeded by
responsible management.

The repeated warnings of levee collapse *were ignored* by politicians and
administrators.

Jed has been reading Jered Diamond's "Collapse", a very thoughtful book
about how human societies have made choices leading to failure. And Diamond
makes clear that it isn't the greedy management of the big bad corproations
which are so glibly caricatured that does the dirty work. It is all of us,
the stockholders who want effortless profits from the corporations, and the
legislators who want greedy citizens to re-elect them, that set these wheels
in motion.

As Pogo said, "We have met the enemy, and he is us". The finger of greed
points in all directions.

Mike Carrell





>
>
>
>


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep  6 03:24:43 2005
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Subject: OT: 90mpg
Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 11:23:55 +0100 
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Vo,
A friend of mine who is a very good mechanical engineer reckons that the
local gas conversion place in Biggin Hill is getting Land Rovers to do 90mpg
on LPG with no modification to the engine (yeh!?). It costs about £800.

Amazing.
R.

.......................................
Website
http://luna.bton.ac.uk/~roc1
.......................................


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From: "John Harris" <jfhdally agn.net.au>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <BE76853CB39E3B47B014207F18386A8F13D66A73 moulsecoomb.bton.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: 90mpg
Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 18:37:43 +0800
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What does he drink??
But seriously I haven't heard of an LPG conversion doing anything else than
less MPG. Is this using standard parts or some new system? 800 quid just
sounds like a usual run of the mill job, definitely not enough for anything
major.
Can you get the name of the conversion place for us?
Regards
JohnH
----- Original Message -----
From: <R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2005 6:23 PM
Subject: OT: 90mpg


> Vo,
> A friend of mine who is a very good mechanical engineer reckons that the
> local gas conversion place in Biggin Hill is getting Land Rovers to do
90mpg
> on LPG with no modification to the engine (yeh!?). It costs about £800.
>
> Amazing.
> R.
>
> .......................................
> Website
> http://luna.bton.ac.uk/~roc1
> .......................................
>
>
>


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep  6 04:00:25 2005
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From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: RE: 90mpg
Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 11:59:29 +0100 
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Yeah, I'm sceptical too. Normally the bigwigs in Sevenoaks with £60-80K top
of the range RRs doing 8mpg could care less about fuel consumption. My
friend John does occasionally come up with bloopers - 90mpg!?

Anyway, when I next drive by there I'll get it.

I like the one about red diesel and false/hidden tanks but I wouldn't do it.
No way! You get caught doing that and you are in serious do do. I mean let's
raid your house and rip up the floorboards to see what else you are doing
kind of do do.

-----Original Message-----
From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On
Behalf Of John Harris
Sent: 06 September 2005 11:38
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: 90mpg

What does he drink??
But seriously I haven't heard of an LPG conversion doing anything else than
less MPG. Is this using standard parts or some new system? 800 quid just
sounds like a usual run of the mill job, definitely not enough for anything
major.
Can you get the name of the conversion place for us?
Regards
JohnH
----- Original Message -----
From: <R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2005 6:23 PM
Subject: OT: 90mpg


> Vo,
> A friend of mine who is a very good mechanical engineer reckons that the
> local gas conversion place in Biggin Hill is getting Land Rovers to do
90mpg
> on LPG with no modification to the engine (yeh!?). It costs about £800.
>
> Amazing.
> R.
>
> .......................................
> Website
> http://luna.bton.ac.uk/~roc1
> .......................................
>
>
>


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep  6 04:02:18 2005
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From: "Noel D. Whitney" <quantum iol.ie>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <BE76853CB39E3B47B014207F18386A8F13D66A73 moulsecoomb.bton.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: 90mpg
Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 12:01:12 +0100
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I ran a BMW 525 years ago with LPG conversion and never got a great success 
from the conversion - You had to drive it harder to get the same engine 
effort - suggestion a lot less bang per buck from LPG
The cost saving on fuel was offset by the "heavy foot" required to maintain 
the same speed
rgds
Noel Whitney
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2005 11:23 AM
Subject: OT: 90mpg


Vo,
A friend of mine who is a very good mechanical engineer reckons that the
local gas conversion place in Biggin Hill is getting Land Rovers to do 90mpg
on LPG with no modification to the engine (yeh!?). It costs about £800.

Amazing.
R.

.......................................
Website
http://luna.bton.ac.uk/~roc1
.......................................



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep  6 04:06:31 2005
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From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: RE: 90mpg
Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 12:05:25 +0100 
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Exactly what I thought and told my friend. Swings and roundabouts. Also I
can't see how the fuel injection system couldn't be modified, diesel is
thick and viscous even liquefied gas flows easily.

I don't like the idea of losing space to the tanks and I don't like the idea
of getting in an accident with something that could rapidly become an
aerosol.

-----Original Message-----
From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On
Behalf Of Noel D. Whitney
Sent: 06 September 2005 12:01
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: 90mpg

I ran a BMW 525 years ago with LPG conversion and never got a great success 
from the conversion - You had to drive it harder to get the same engine 
effort - suggestion a lot less bang per buck from LPG
The cost saving on fuel was offset by the "heavy foot" required to maintain 
the same speed
rgds
Noel Whitney
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2005 11:23 AM
Subject: OT: 90mpg


Vo,
A friend of mine who is a very good mechanical engineer reckons that the
local gas conversion place in Biggin Hill is getting Land Rovers to do 90mpg
on LPG with no modification to the engine (yeh!?). It costs about £800.

Amazing.
R.

.......................................
Website
http://luna.bton.ac.uk/~roc1
.......................................



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep  6 04:10:59 2005
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From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: RE: 90mpg
Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 12:10:00 +0100 
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Further to this topic:
http://www.greenfuel.org.uk/

Have a look at the FAQs.

-----Original Message-----
From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On
Behalf Of R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk
Sent: 06 September 2005 12:05
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: RE: 90mpg

Exactly what I thought and told my friend. Swings and roundabouts. Also I
can't see how the fuel injection system couldn't be modified, diesel is
thick and viscous even liquefied gas flows easily.

I don't like the idea of losing space to the tanks and I don't like the idea
of getting in an accident with something that could rapidly become an
aerosol.

-----Original Message-----
From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On
Behalf Of Noel D. Whitney
Sent: 06 September 2005 12:01
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: 90mpg

I ran a BMW 525 years ago with LPG conversion and never got a great success 
from the conversion - You had to drive it harder to get the same engine 
effort - suggestion a lot less bang per buck from LPG
The cost saving on fuel was offset by the "heavy foot" required to maintain 
the same speed
rgds
Noel Whitney
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2005 11:23 AM
Subject: OT: 90mpg


Vo,
A friend of mine who is a very good mechanical engineer reckons that the
local gas conversion place in Biggin Hill is getting Land Rovers to do 90mpg
on LPG with no modification to the engine (yeh!?). It costs about £800.

Amazing.
R.

.......................................
Website
http://luna.bton.ac.uk/~roc1
.......................................



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep  6 04:36:27 2005
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Subject: [Fwd: Re: O.T. The Good Old Days.]
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-------- Forwarded Message --------
From: Michael T. Huffman <knuke sumosound.de>
Reply-To:vortex-l eskimo.com
To: fjsparber earthlink.net
Subject: Re: O.T. The Good Old Days.
Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2005 13:05:31 +0200
On Tue, 2005-09-06 at 03:54 -0500, Frederick Sparber wrote:

> I also hold the world's record for outrunning a two-ton atomic
> artillery shell mounted on a 4-wheel dolly (~ 15 kiloton yield) in a
> sloping tunnel.  It was one that President Truman was thinking about
> using in Korea. When it
> hit the dirt outside the tunnel it rolled over, but didn't detonate.

I nominate Fred Sparber as the Official Wildman of the Vortex Group.

Knuke =20

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep  6 05:19:13 2005
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Taken by barge to the Cape no doubt.


http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?z=16&n=3324392.9984428&e=218503.999775696&datum=nad83&u=6
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<HTML style="FONT-SIZE: x-small; FONT-FAMILY: MS Sans Serif"><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=windows-1251">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<P>
<DIV>Taken by barge to the Cape no doubt.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?z=16&amp;n=3324392.9984428&amp;e=218503.999775696&amp;datum=nad83&amp;u=6">http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?z=16&amp;n=3324392.9984428&amp;e=218503.999775696&amp;datum=nad83&amp;u=6</A></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep  6 06:07:00 2005
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Vo,
Not the link I was looking for but this is quite good apart from some
opinion which may grate.
(Also donate to these philanthropic services if you can as I must do here
too. 'Mere public' can organise their affairs without state intervention -
sometimes.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conjecture

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothesis

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theorem

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_law
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axiom

R.
(I think I should get on with some work now, filing out grant proposals and
stuff yuk)

.......................................
Website
http://luna.bton.ac.uk/~roc1
.......................................

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep  6 06:44:31 2005
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From: OrionWorks <orionworks charter.net>
Organization: OrionWorks
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: OT Global warming (Y2K debate)
Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 8:43:42 -0500
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> From: R.O.Cornwall
> 
> Mike, your tone is patronising.
> 
> Y2K was hype to get programmers jobs and make academics look clever. Yes it
> did ameliorate to some extent BUT the spiel was that it was all too late and
> global meltdown was imminent.

Not wishing to get in the cross fire here.

I have to say:

Y2K was not hype.

I was and am still a programmer working for the state of Wisconsin. We spent the last five years of the twentieth century converting mostly COBOL code to ameliorate the effects of the turn of the millennium - and STILL when January 1, 2000 rolled around we woke up and discovered hundreds of government files that suddenly had been archived over night.
 
We were lucky. Most of them were easily restored, and it was business as usual. Things could have been a lot worse.

It's possible there will be a retort claiming that I?m just protecting my turf since I?m a programmer, so what would one expect a programmer to say.

Yeah, right.

Regard,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep  6 07:34:25 2005
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From: "John Harris" <jfhdally agn.net.au>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <BE76853CB39E3B47B014207F18386A8F13D66AC4 moulsecoomb.bton.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: 90mpg
Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 22:33:51 +0800
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Was that a Diesel conversion?
LPG won't ignite in a CI engine so it is usual to use a small amount of
diesel (usually the idle qty) as an ignition charge.
I can see how a diesel can get 90 MPG on diesel with the LPG in addition.
Regards
JohnH
Just as a PS - you cant run a vapour through diesel injectors and it is
unusual to direct inject it, is more usual to add a set of manifold
injectors for the LPG charge.
----- Original Message -----
From: <R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2005 7:05 PM
Subject: RE: 90mpg


> Exactly what I thought and told my friend. Swings and roundabouts. Also I
> can't see how the fuel injection system couldn't be modified, diesel is
> thick and viscous even liquefied gas flows easily.
>
> I don't like the idea of losing space to the tanks and I don't like the
idea
> of getting in an accident with something that could rapidly become an
> aerosol.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On
> Behalf Of Noel D. Whitney
> Sent: 06 September 2005 12:01
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: Re: 90mpg
>
> I ran a BMW 525 years ago with LPG conversion and never got a great
success
> from the conversion - You had to drive it harder to get the same engine
> effort - suggestion a lot less bang per buck from LPG
> The cost saving on fuel was offset by the "heavy foot" required to
maintain
> the same speed
> rgds
> Noel Whitney
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk>
> To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2005 11:23 AM
> Subject: OT: 90mpg
>
>
> Vo,
> A friend of mine who is a very good mechanical engineer reckons that the
> local gas conversion place in Biggin Hill is getting Land Rovers to do
90mpg
> on LPG with no modification to the engine (yeh!?). It costs about £800.
>
> Amazing.
> R.
>
> .......................................
> Website
> http://luna.bton.ac.uk/~roc1
> .......................................
>
>
>
>


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep  6 07:41:15 2005
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From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: RE: 90mpg
Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 15:39:47 +0100 
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John,
I'll look into this. I'm not expert here. I think my friend is talking a.se,
once he said diesels are capable of efficiencies of over 80%.

I imagine if you kick a hole in the footwells and stick your feet out like
the Flintstones you can have any amount of efficiency you desire :) Or get
Dino to tow you.
R.

-----Original Message-----
From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On
Behalf Of John Harris
Sent: 06 September 2005 15:34
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: 90mpg

Was that a Diesel conversion?
LPG won't ignite in a CI engine so it is usual to use a small amount of
diesel (usually the idle qty) as an ignition charge.
I can see how a diesel can get 90 MPG on diesel with the LPG in addition.
Regards
JohnH
Just as a PS - you cant run a vapour through diesel injectors and it is
unusual to direct inject it, is more usual to add a set of manifold
injectors for the LPG charge.
----- Original Message -----
From: <R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2005 7:05 PM
Subject: RE: 90mpg


> Exactly what I thought and told my friend. Swings and roundabouts. Also I
> can't see how the fuel injection system couldn't be modified, diesel is
> thick and viscous even liquefied gas flows easily.
>
> I don't like the idea of losing space to the tanks and I don't like the
idea
> of getting in an accident with something that could rapidly become an
> aerosol.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On
> Behalf Of Noel D. Whitney
> Sent: 06 September 2005 12:01
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: Re: 90mpg
>
> I ran a BMW 525 years ago with LPG conversion and never got a great
success
> from the conversion - You had to drive it harder to get the same engine
> effort - suggestion a lot less bang per buck from LPG
> The cost saving on fuel was offset by the "heavy foot" required to
maintain
> the same speed
> rgds
> Noel Whitney
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk>
> To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2005 11:23 AM
> Subject: OT: 90mpg
>
>
> Vo,
> A friend of mine who is a very good mechanical engineer reckons that the
> local gas conversion place in Biggin Hill is getting Land Rovers to do
90mpg
> on LPG with no modification to the engine (yeh!?). It costs about £800.
>
> Amazing.
> R.
>
> .......................................
> Website
> http://luna.bton.ac.uk/~roc1
> .......................................
>
>
>
>


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep  6 08:33:47 2005
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Message-ID: <20050906153241.43043.qmail web32815.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 08:32:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: Harvey Norris <harvich yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: "magic numbers"
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--- Frederick Sparber <fjsparber earthlink.net> wrote:

> Jones Beene asks.
> 
> 
> " "Seven" is a number that is entrenched in
> mysticism at many levels - but why? "
> 
> Because it is the result of dividing the "42",  the
> answer Arthur Dent got when he asked the computer
> the meaning of life by 6 ?   
> 
>
http://www.bbc.co.uk/cult/hitchhikers/guide/answer.shtml
> 
> 
> If you want the"Ultimate Answer" sooner,  ask Jed. 
> :-)
> 
> Frederick
One needs a certain amount of numbers in order to
balance them into a magic square state. This of course
is taking the array from an ordered sequential state
into a so called "magic" state; where all horizontal,
vertical and diagonal combinations add to the same
number. To find what this "average" number is going to
be we merely find the summation of the diagonals when
they are placed in the sequential uniform ordering
state. The smallest square would be 4 numbers where
the diagonals add to 5. However it is impossible to
balance this smallest square. We cannot rearrange
these 4 numbers so that any combination adds to 5. The
first square that can be balanced uses 9 numbers,
where one of the diagonals contains 1,5,9 which adds
to 15. The solution itself is quite unique, over 4000
combinations of which only one is correct: but
depending on our perpective it can be shown 8
different ways as reflections, and half of these
reflections are duplicates.
     If we now take the same analogy into 3 dimensions
and attempt to form a "magic cube", we must use 27
numbers for the smallest 3 sided cube; of which one of
the  four diagonals reads 1,14,27 which sums to 42. If
that magic cube could be perfectly balanced, all the
sums would add to 42. But as it turns out the best
that can be made is lateral combinations that will add
to 42, the diagonals cannot be brought to balance
because the cube is too small. Thus the first magic
cube is an imperfect one, since the diagonals cannot
be made to balance. On two dimensions the magic square
constructions show that the  two diagonals interchange
positions with the two laterals that bisect the
center: but with a three dimensional cube we find an
impossibility for interchange since the are four
diagonals but only three laterals that bisect the
center number, which does not move to a new position.
One cannot interchange four sums with three. Because
of this for many years I considered the magic cube an
impossibility, but I had not accounted for larger
sized cubes. In fact the square that has an even
number of elements on its sides has a totally
different regimen for solving its solution. Now there
is not a single element in the center, but rather a
code of four numbers in the center. This code can be
turned into an oscillation so that it replicates the
conditions for balance by using four adjacent groups
of four. Thus at once I recognized that perhaps a
perfect magic cube might be had using a cube with four
elements to a side, but apparently even this cube is
too small. I then started work with balancing a cube
with 8 elements to a side, for a total of 512 elements
where I then posed this question to vortex list, has a
magic cube ever been constructed? Thanx for the
answers there, a 1976 Scientific American article
shows that it can be done, but I have not yet read
this article. Since these things have already been
accomplished I abandoned my efforts to find the
solution to the 512 element balanced cube. I do not
know if this is the smallest perfect magic cube, I
will eventually have to get to a university library
and find the cited Scientific American article to find
what was deduced there.  But in any case the special
quality of the number 42 can be defined as the first
number that can be used to form a sum for an imperfect
magic cube.
Sincerely Harvey D Norris.


Tesla Research Group; Pioneering the Applications of Interphasal Resonances http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep  6 08:40:09 2005
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Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2005 16:38:56 +0100
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Grimer <f.grimer grimer2.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: RE: 90mpg
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At 03:39 pm 06/09/2005 +0100, you wrote:
>John,
>I'll look into this. I'm not expert here. I think my friend is talking a.se,
>once he said diesels are capable of efficiencies of over 80%.
>
>I imagine if you kick a hole in the footwells and stick your feet out like
>the Flintstones you can have any amount of efficiency you desire :) Or get
>Dino to tow you.
>R.



I know someone who runs his second hand diesel on cooking oil from 
the local Tesco. He swears it runs more smoothly than on conventional
diesel. He tells me that quite a few people run their cars on used 
cooking oil from the local chippy. The only problem there is the 
used stuff pongs a bit and is likely to attract attention from the 
fuzz.


Frank

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep  6 08:52:11 2005
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From: "John Steck" <johnsteck tetrahelix.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: How $1 trillion could eliminate oil
Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 10:51:01 -0500
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Here is something some here might find interesting...
http://www.goodideacreative.com/wheelockmtn.html

Not sure if they are worth the money or not yet.

-john




-----Original Message-----
From: Wesley Bruce [mailto:wesleybruce iinet.net.au] 
Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2005 7:48 AM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: How $1 trillion could eliminate oil


Jed have you looked at Dr John Bockris' work on solar hydrogen. The 
solar chimny technology in deserts even at halve the size and power 
output numbers of the original solar hydrogen book would work given some 
of the inovations that have come up since. Solar hydrogen has been 
getting less press lately mainly because John, its loudest advovate, has 
switched to cold fusion and that realy got the greens confused. :-\ PS If
you get to chat with Dr Bockris give him my regards and my email. 
I bootlegged one of his books so I owe him some money for copy right. ;-)
Jed Rothwell wrote:

> I wrote:
>
>> For $1 trillion we could end the use of oil completely. We could
>> replace it with something like wind-power generated hydrogen . . .
>
>
> Of course that is a very rough approximation, but I think it is
> correct to within 20%. It is not difficult to make a very rough 
> estimate. $1 trillion equals $3,300 per person or about $10,000 per 
> household.
>
> Taking into account all forms of energy used by corporations farmers
> and at home, the average household consumes about 3 kW continuously, I 
> think. $10,000 would buy you 1 kW of nuclear power plus 2 kW of wind 
> power, which would be more than enough to replace the energy used for 
> transportation, even if we used hydrogen generated at home, with 
> plug-in hybrids. (That is inefficient and expensive but it would not 
> require much of a distribution network.)
>
> Actually I think $10,000 would be enough to eliminate 80% of oil and
> 80% of coal as well. Natural gas still abundant and it does not 
> generate as much carbon dioxide so I would reduce it by, say, 20%. 
> This would be done over 20 years.
>
> The $1 trillion would only be the cost of converting to new energy
> systems; we would also have to spend whatever we plan spend on fuel 
> and new automobiles during this period anyway. When we finished, we 
> would still spend almost as much for energy on a daily basis as we do 
> now.
>
> In practical terms, here is approximately how I would divvy up the
> money per household:
>
> $4,000 for a plug-in hybrid cars. That is to say, $4,000 more than the
> family would spend for conventional cars. I am assuming that in 10 
> years nearly all cars will have to be replaced anyway, so the family 
> would have to buy two cars in 20 years. The first plug-in hybrid car 
> would cost ~$3,000 more than a conventional car, in the second one 
> only $1,000 more. As I said earlier, for the average commuter a plug 
> in hybrid car would reduce the use of gasoline by 90%. Delivery trucks 
> and long-haul trucks would be a problem, and aircraft would still 
> consume petroleum.
>
> $2,000 for conservation: improved insulation, compact fluorescent
> lights, better refrigerators, and so on. This would greatly reduce the 
> need for additional generator capacity. We would still need additional 
> generator capacity for the plug-in hybrids, but not as much.
>
> $4,000 for additional generator capacity, split between wind and
> nuclear power. Wind would be ideal for recharging automobiles at night 
> with power supplies that could be controlled by the electric power 
> companies remotely via the Internet, as we discussed here earlier. 
> Nuclear power would be needed in places which do not have much wind, 
> and during periods when the wind is not blowing much. About half of 
> our electricity now comes from coal. I hope this can be reduced to 10%.
>
> As I said, this estimate might be off by 20%; it might take an extra
> $2000 per household (1 kW of wind capacity). On the other hand it 
> might be substantially cheaper because this plan would call for 
> roughly 200 new nuclear power plants, and I think the cost of nuclear 
> power would fall substantially if we build that many plants. Nuclear 
> power now cost roughly $6,000 per kilowatt of capacity; it might fall 
> to $2,000 or $3,000. Uranium fuel is very cheap and abundant. Cleaning 
> up spent fuel is reasonably cheap, but of course it is a huge 
> political problem.
>
> Generally speaking, conventional alternative energy cannot compete
> with fossil fuel for two reasons:
>
> 1. Fossil fuel benefits from enormous subsidies, both direct and
> hidden. Hidden subsidies include the cost of war to secure oil 
> supplies ($1 trillion), and the death of 20,000 people a year from 
> coal pollution.
>
> 2. The startup costs for alternative energy tend to be higher,
> although the incremental fuel costs thereafter are lower for things 
> like wind and nuclear power.
>
> The $1 trillion I am discussing here would only be used for the
> startup costs, not for ongoing costs such as fuel and maintenance. The 
> most extreme example of high startup costs followed by low operating 
> costs would be for space-based solar power. The initial startup cost 
> would be astronomical. A small space elevator costs $6 billion and I 
> suppose an industrial scale one would cost $200 billion or more. 
> However, once the system is in place you can add another square 
> kilometer of photovoltaic collection panels and microwave transmitters 
> very cheaply. A space-based collector would be in sunlight nearly all 
> the time. Transmission back to earth would be about 80% efficient, so 
> overall this would be about 5 times more effective than ground-based 
> solar, and it would be impervious to the weather, seasons or diurnal 
> cycle. See:
>
> http://www.bookrags.com/sciences/astronomy/energy-from-space-spsc-01.h
> tml
>
> Cold fusion is far better than any of these alternatives because
> instead of costing $1 trillion for the transition, it would cost only 
> a few hundred billion. The biggest cost would be to convert factories 
> and retire manufacture equipment. All manufacturing equipment has to 
> be retired anyway after 10 or 20 years, but cold fusion would make it 
> obsolete, and it would be retired ahead of schedule. After the 
> conversion is complete, individual machines such as cars and water 
> heaters will be cheaper than present-day models, and fuel costs will 
> be virtually zero. I describe this in considerable detail in my book.
>
> This $1 trillion would only be enough to convert the U.S. I suppose it
> would cost another $1 or $2 trillion to convert the rest of the world. 
> It would be good for the US to go first because we could develop the 
> technology, absorb the cost of the development, and later make a large 
> profit selling the equipment to other countries. It seems extremely 
> unlikely the US will do anything like this, but Japan and China may 
> well. As I mentioned, China is now developing a 40 to 50 mpg car they 
> hope to sell for $6,000 in the U.S. I saw a photo of a prototype. It 
> is not a micro-sized car like the ones you see in Japan and Italy, or 
> a Mini Cooper but more like a small Corolla. If the Chinese succeed, 
> than within 30 years this car will evolve into a plug-in hybrid, while 
> the cost of gasoline rises to $10 per gallon, and the Chinese will 
> drive both Ford and GM into bankruptcy.
>
> - Jed
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep  6 08:52:21 2005
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From: "John Steck" <johnsteck tetrahelix.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Alleviating Energy Costs
Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 10:51:01 -0500
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Thank you for forwarding the link.  Dropped an email to my local rep to =
give
me a quote.  I will share with the class what I find out... 8^)
=20
-john
=20
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net]=20
Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2005 8:21 AM
To: vortex-l
Subject: Re: Alleviating Energy Costs




Pricey no doubt, but maybe cheaper in the long run than predicted costs =
of
natural gas, propane and heating oil.
=20
http://www.trane.com/Residential/Products/HeatPumps/GroundSource/GroundSo=
urc
ePage.asp
=20
" Some homeowners are tapping into the earth for energy savings.They =
have
found geothermal energy as a great source in heating and cooling their =
home.
Many of these homeowners power their geothermal system with Trane's
ground-source heat pumps. They know that Trane offers high efficiency
equipment, ranging from 13 to 22.8 EER (Energy Efficiency Ratio) and =
from
2.7 to 3.9 COP (co-efficiency of performance) to provide some of the
greatest energy savings and home comfort found in geothermal design. "
=20
I have a Trane central heat system in the ten year old city home we =
bought
in Feb 2004.
located next to some ancient volcanos.
=20
Hmmm.  :-)
=20
Frederick

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<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff><SPAN =
class=3D562171815-06092005>Thank you for=20
forwarding the link.&nbsp; Dropped an email to my local rep to give me a =

quote.&nbsp; I will share with the class what I find out...=20
8^)</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff><SPAN=20
class=3D562171815-06092005></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff><SPAN=20
class=3D562171815-06092005>-john</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft><FONT=20
face=3DTahoma>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Frederick =
Sparber=20
[mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, September =
03, 2005=20
8:21 AM<BR><B>To:</B> vortex-l<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: Alleviating Energy =

Costs<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<P>
<DIV>Pricey no doubt, but maybe cheaper in the long run than predicted =
costs of=20
natural gas, propane and heating oil.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A=20
href=3D"http://www.trane.com/Residential/Products/HeatPumps/GroundSource/=
GroundSourcePage.asp">http://www.trane.com/Residential/Products/HeatPumps=
/GroundSource/GroundSourcePage.asp</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>" Some homeowners are tapping into the earth for energy =
savings.They have=20
found geothermal energy as a great source in heating and cooling their =
home.=20
Many of these homeowners power their geothermal system with Trane's=20
ground-source heat pumps. They know that Trane offers high efficiency =
equipment,=20
ranging from 13 to 22.8 EER (Energy Efficiency Ratio) and from 2.7 to =
3.9 COP=20
(co-efficiency of performance) to provide some of the greatest energy =
savings=20
and home comfort found in geothermal design. "</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>I have a Trane central heat system in the ten year old city home we =
bought=20
in Feb 2004.</DIV>
<DIV>located next to some ancient volcanos.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Hmmm.&nbsp; :-)</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Frederick</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep  6 09:00:18 2005
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From: "Jones Beene" <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
To: "vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: OT: what doesn't kill you....
Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 08:59:09 -0700
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You've probably heard the old homily "What Doesn't Kill You Makes You =
Stronger" a hundred times, perhaps even with some passing =
acknowledgement that it probably contains a kernel of truth (depending =
on how you have been personally affected by the short-term =
circumstances).=20

Actually, it is a well-known phrase from "Thus Spake Zarathustra" =
written by the brilliant but controversial German philosopher Friedrich =
Nietzsche. Like so many famous quotes, the intent (at least) was =
probably around in less poetic form for a long time before the famous =
"borrower" picked up on it ....

In the case of Katrina (which word-derivation means "pure, purity" or by =
implication: "cleansing") and the tragedy unfolding along the Gulf Coast =
of the USA, this kind of adage of challenged-optimism is now falling on =
deaf ears, and will for several months of hard efforts at cleanup and =
rebuilding ... but the larger, generalized question about that 'kernel =
of truth' in Nietzsche's adage is... this time will 'good' prevail in =
the end i.e. will the Gulf coast area become somehow stronger or better, =
a few years down the road ?=20

I think the answer is clearly yes. And if part of the *cleansing* =
process includes an eventual "regime change" in a couple of years, then =
Katrina may end-up having been a huge "gift" to us all: a national =
cleansing.=20

Bush is taking what some neo-con apologists call an "undeserved" bashing =
for something which he did not cause. In the viewpoint of the =
murder-mongers at the 700 Club, Katrina was an act of God to cleanse a =
modern day Sodom ... but, they are missing the fact that part of that =
drubbing of our so-called leader is a delayed realization of the "big =
picture" of a failed presidency and the dawning realization that we =
would not have been put in this predicament if it had not been for his =
immoral insistence on an unnecessary war, based on a string of  what can =
now be seen as little more than blatant lies, concocted at the highest =
levels.

Few realize that the flooding of New Orleans was easily avoidable. The =
federal funds had already been obtained by the earlier effort of the =
Army Corp of Engineers - and were already designated for the =
strengthening of the levee system that protected New Orleans just years =
before Katrina - BUT because of the Bush-War these funds were not made =
available but were used instead to help finance an illegal atrocity, =
closely tied to securing foreign oil supplies and making up for daddy's =
failure.=20

Now we are faced with the loss of a major city, at a cost greater than =
9/11 and Hurricane Andrew combined. That is the conclusion of a =
non-partisan report "NEW ORLEANS A Casualty of Oil Dependence by Richard =
D. Masters of the International Clearinghouse for Hydrogen Commerce =
September 2, 2005. More information is available here:
http://www.ch2bc.org/

"Turning Bad Breaks Into Blessings"- or "Lemons into Lemonade" are the =
secondary correlate of this maxim "What Doesn't Kill You Makes You =
Stronger". And here is one further thoughts on tragedies which in =
retrospect were over-exaggerated with consequences that have hindered, =
rather than helped - our national "energy dependence" predicament. We =
have also permitted certain misinformed zealots, particularly the =
environmental activists of the Sierra Club, steer us away from one of =
the most environmentally-sound of all the available alternatives - =
nuclear.

In the news this week is the more accurate appraisal of the aftermath of =
Chernobyl.  As of mid-2005, fewer than 50 deaths had been directly =
attributed to radiation from the disaster, almost all being highly =
exposed rescue workers, many who died within months of the accident but =
others who died as late as 2004.=20
http://www.physorg.com/news6243.html

This is not to minimize another terrible tragedy, but only to try to =
cast it into the proper "big picture" perspective - its all about risk =
versus rewards. WE need nuclear... yes we need wind, solar, cold fusion, =
ZPE and conservation more than nuclear, but we need nuclear now, more =
than ever, to bridge the gap of supply and demand in the days of =
dwindling oil.

BTW, on a lighter note: there are some 'Humorous' variations on FN's =
line "What Doesn't Kill You Makes You Stronger"

What doesn't kill you can only fuck you up for a really, long time
What doesn't kill me, postpones the Inevitable=20
What doesn't kill us, makes us Stranger=20
That which does not kill me has now made its last mistake=20

and, in the category of "vengeance is mine"....

Nietzsche is dead, not stronger=20
(God's comment on Nietzsche's idea that 'God is dead')=20

Nietzsche is Pietzsche (Ogden Nash ?)=20

and my favorite:

Ubermensch and =DCbermensch
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9Cbermensch

Jones

"After coming into contact with a religious man I always feel I must =
wash my hands."=20

---- Friedrich Nietzsche (being channeled on the subject of Pat =
Robertson and his fellow-traveler George Bush)


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<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff background=3D"">
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>You've probably heard the old homily =
"What Doesn't=20
Kill You Makes You Stronger" a hundred times, perhaps even with some =
passing=20
acknowledgement that it probably contains a kernel of truth (depending =
on how=20
you have been personally affected by the short-term circumstances).=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Actually, it is a well-known phrase =
from "Thus=20
Spake Zarathustra" written by the brilliant but controversial German =
philosopher=20
Friedrich Nietzsche. Like so many famous quotes, the intent (at least) =
was=20
probably around in less poetic form for a long time before the famous =
"borrower"=20
picked up on it ....<BR><BR>In the case of Katrina (which=20
word-derivation&nbsp;means "pure, purity" or by implication: =
"cleansing") and=20
the tragedy unfolding along the Gulf Coast of the USA, this kind of =
adage of=20
challenged-optimism is now falling on deaf ears, and will for several =
months of=20
hard efforts at cleanup and rebuilding ... but the larger, generalized =
question=20
about that 'kernel of truth' in Nietzsche's adage is... this =
time&nbsp;will=20
'good' prevail in the end i.e. will the Gulf coast area become somehow =
stronger=20
or better, a few years down the road ? <BR><BR>I think the answer is =
clearly=20
yes. And if part of the *cleansing* process&nbsp;includes an eventual =
"regime=20
change" in a couple of years, then Katrina may end-up having been a huge =
"gift"=20
to us all: a national cleansing. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Bush is taking&nbsp;what some neo-con =
apologists=20
call an "undeserved" bashing for something which he did not cause. In =
the=20
viewpoint of the murder-mongers at the 700 Club, Katrina was an act of =
God to=20
cleanse a modern day Sodom&nbsp;... but, they are missing the fact=20
that&nbsp;part of that drubbing of our so-called leader is a delayed =
realization=20
of the "big picture" of a failed presidency and the dawning realization =
that we=20
would not have been put in this predicament if it had not been for his =
immoral=20
insistence on an unnecessary war, based on a string of&nbsp; what can =
now be=20
seen as little more than blatant lies, concocted at the highest=20
levels.<BR><BR>Few realize that the flooding of New Orleans was easily=20
avoidable. The federal funds had already been obtained by the earlier =
effort of=20
the Army Corp of Engineers - and were already designated for the =
strengthening=20
of the levee system that protected New Orleans just years before Katrina =
- BUT=20
because of the Bush-War these funds were not made available but were =
used=20
instead to help finance an illegal atrocity, closely tied to securing =
foreign=20
oil supplies and making up for daddy's failure. <BR><BR>Now we are faced =
with=20
the loss of a major city, at a cost greater than 9/11 and Hurricane =
Andrew=20
combined. That is the conclusion of a non-partisan report "NEW ORLEANS A =

Casualty of Oil Dependence by Richard D. Masters of the International=20
Clearinghouse for Hydrogen Commerce September 2, 2005. More information =
is=20
available here:<BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.ch2bc.org/">http://www.ch2bc.org/</A></FONT></DIV><FON=
T=20
face=3DArial size=3D2>
<DIV><BR>"Turning Bad Breaks Into Blessings"- or "Lemons into Lemonade" =
are the=20
secondary correlate of this maxim "What Doesn't Kill You Makes You =
Stronger".=20
And here is one further thoughts on tragedies which in retrospect were=20
over-exaggerated with consequences that have hindered, rather than =
helped - our=20
national "energy&nbsp;dependence" predicament. We have also permitted =
certain=20
misinformed zealots, particularly the environmental activists of the =
Sierra=20
Club,&nbsp;steer us away from one of the most environmentally-sound of =
all the=20
available alternatives - nuclear.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>In the news this week is the more accurate appraisal of the =
aftermath of=20
Chernobyl.&nbsp; As of mid-2005, fewer than 50 deaths had been directly=20
attributed to radiation from the disaster, almost all being highly =
exposed=20
rescue workers, many who died within months of the accident but others =
who died=20
as late as 2004. <BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.physorg.com/news6243.html">http://www.physorg.com/news=
6243.html</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>This is not to minimize another terrible tragedy, but only to try =
to cast=20
it into the proper "big picture" perspective - its all about risk versus =

rewards. WE need nuclear... yes we need wind, solar, cold fusion, ZPE =
and=20
conservation more than nuclear, but we need nuclear now, more than ever, =
to=20
bridge the gap of supply and demand in the days of dwindling =
oil.<BR><BR>BTW, on=20
a lighter note:&nbsp;there are some 'Humorous' variations on FN's line =
"What=20
Doesn't Kill You Makes You Stronger"</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>What doesn't kill you can only fuck you up for a really, long =
time</DIV>
<DIV>What doesn't kill me, postpones the Inevitable <BR>What doesn't =
kill us,=20
makes us Stranger <BR>That which does not kill me has now made its last =
mistake=20
</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>and, in the category of "vengeance is mine"....</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Nietzsche is dead, not stronger </DIV>
<DIV>(God's comment on Nietzsche's idea that 'God is dead') </DIV>
<DIV><BR>Nietzsche is Pietzsche (Ogden Nash ?) </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>and my favorite:</DIV>
<DIV><BR>Ubermensch and =DCbermensch</DIV>
<DIV><A=20
href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9Cbermensch">http://en.wikipedia=
.org/wiki/%C3%9Cbermensch</A></DIV>
<DIV><BR>Jones</DIV>
<DIV><BR>"After coming into contact with a religious man I always feel I =
must=20
wash my hands." <BR></DIV>
<DIV>---- Friedrich Nietzsche (being channeled on the subject of Pat =
Robertson=20
and his fellow-traveler George Bush)<BR><BR></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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> From: Grimer

> I know someone who runs his second hand diesel on cooking oil from 
> the local Tesco. 

Does he have to use diesel to start the engine and switch to the fish & chips?  Or, will the engine start on the cooking oil?

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From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: OT: what doesn't kill you....
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> From: "Jones Beene" 

> What doesn't kill me, postpones the Inevitable 

That's 'Adversity':

http://despair.com/indem.html#viewall

I like 'Potential'.  ;-)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep  6 10:08:15 2005
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Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2005 13:07:11 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Typhoon 14 hits Japan
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I mentioned the other day that a tremendous typhoon was approaching Japan. 
It struck the southwest islands about 12 hours ago, and it is just passing 
out to sea again. It may hit Hokkaido later. It covers one of the largest 
areas on record, and in some areas it produced 1300 mm of rain in a 24-hour 
period, the most ever recorded in Japan. Actually, that was somewhat 
fortunate, because the area hit hardest, Kyushu, has been suffering from an 
extended drought. One dam shown on the TV news was officially registering 
0% full yesterday, and it is now 100% full.

Casualties are light so far, with 6 dead and 13 missing, and the storm does 
not seem intense. Peak winds were 25 to 35 m/sec (80 mph) which is not too 
bad, and atmospheric pressure 970 hPa. The storm surge at high tide was 
remarkably high in some places; I think the news said 3 meters. I believe 
this would be a category 1 or 2 hurricane on the Saffir-Simpson scale. See:

http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/aboutsshs.shtml

Japanese weather has become quite extreme in the last five years or so, 
with severe droughts followed by unprecedented typhoons and large amounts 
of rain and flooding. The monsoon season, which is usually quite regular 
and predictable, appears to be disrupted. Of course this might be purely a 
coincidence, or part of some long-term natural cycle, but it seems that 
most experts in Japan think it is caused by global warming. That is what 
the Meteorological Agency says.

- Jed


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http://www.physorg.com/news6141.html

"Results showed that the microbes in about a half a liter of rumen fluid – fermented, liquefied feed extracted from the rumen, the largest chamber of a cow's stomach – produced about 600 millivolts of electricity. "

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Subject: Re: OT: what doesn't kill you....
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Jones Beene wrote:

>Actually, it is a well-known phrase from "Thus Spake Zarathustra" written 
>by the brilliant but controversial German philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche.

Brilliant? In my opinion he was world-class jerk, and I despise the notion 
that suffering is good for people.


>i.e. will the Gulf coast area become somehow stronger or better, a few 
>years down the road?

This is a valid point. It could be improved, if the natural wetland 
barriers are restored and proper city planning is implemented. There is 
good article about this in today's Washington Post:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/05/AR2005090501034.html

"Time for a Tough Question: Why Rebuild?

By Klaus Jacob

It is time to swim against the tide. The direction of public discourse in 
the wake of Katrina goes like this: First we save lives and provide some 
basic assistance to the victims. Then we clean up New Orleans. And then we 
rebuild the city. Most will rightly agree on the first two. But should we 
rebuild New Orleans, 10 feet below sea level, just so it can be wiped out 
again?

Some say we can raise and strengthen the levees to fully protect the city. 
Here is some unpleasant truth: The higher the defenses, the deeper the 
floods that will inevitably follow. The current political climate is not 
conducive to having scientific arguments heard before political decisions 
are made. But not doing so leads to the kind of chaos we are seeing now.

This is not a natural disaster. It is a social, political, human and -- to 
a lesser degree -- engineering disaster. To many experts, it is a disaster 
that was waiting to happen. . . ."

Jacob recommends a scaled down version of the city. Others have stressed 
the importance of lessons learned in the Netherlands, and suggested that 
European experts be brought in. These are good ideas, but given the 
anti-science & anti-Europe attitudes of the present administration I think 
there is little chance they will be implemented.


>We have also permitted certain misinformed zealots, particularly the 
>environmental activists of the Sierra Club, steer us away from one of the 
>most environmentally-sound of all the available alternatives - nuclear.

The Sierra Club would probably love to take credit for this, but as far as 
I know they have no influence over the present administration, and they had 
none over presidents Reagan or Bush #1. So that's 17 years of Republican 
administrations during which the US power companies might have built 
nuclear power plants, but did not. In the last 20 years the Sierra Club and 
other environmentalists have not even been able to force through a 1-mpg 
increase in the CAFE standards, so why does anyone think they can dictate 
policy to electric power companies? No nuclear power plants have been built 
for only one reason: power companies do not want them. They are far too 
expensive and risky, even though the Federal government assumes most of the 
biggest risk from an accident. Although I actually favor building them 
myself, and I think they are much better than coal-fired plants, I also 
think a power company exec would have to be crazy to build one. For the 
same amount of money you can build three times the generating capacity with 
wind power, which poses absolutely no risk whatever, and does not generate 
nuclear waste. You can build 12 times the capacity in coal-fired 
generation, which carries no risk to the power company, although it will 
kill hundreds of civilians.


>In the news this week is the more accurate appraisal of the aftermath of 
>Chernobyl.  As of mid-2005, fewer than 50 deaths had been directly 
>attributed to radiation from the disaster, almost all being highly exposed 
>rescue workers, many who died within months of the accident but others who 
>died as late as 2004.
>http://www.physorg.com/news6243.html

This looks like a mixture of disinformation and confusion to me. I do not 
have detailed statistics to counter this, and I have not investigated 
Chernobyl carefully, so perhaps I am wrong, but I recall detailed accounts 
in the Japanese press written by volunteer doctors who went to Chernobyl 
after the disaster. They saw hundreds of patients die, and there is no 
telling how many died before they arrived (which was too late to help, for 
many patients).

Much of the Physorg data comes from "the governments of Belarus, Russia and 
Ukraine." These institutions have zero credibility, measured to several 
significant decimal places. They make Holocaust deniers seem reasonable. 
The Russian government has stated that during Stalin's reign of terror 
"fewer than a thousand" people were killed, and this is what many high 
school students believe. The students are not taught this in school. 
Indeed, they learn virtually nothing about Stalin, except what their 
grandparents whisper to them. The actual number is at least 9.5 million 
killed. Stalin confirmed that. Heck, he bragged about it. The total may 
have been high as 50 million. So there's a good working ratio to start 
with, 1:9,500. If official Russian and Ukrainian sources say the number of 
dead was 50, I expect the actual totals are closer to 475,000, and I expect 
most of corpses were bulldozed into unmarked graves. Perhaps that would not 
happen today, but it sure would have happened in the Soviet Union in 1986.

- Jed


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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: RE: Alleviating Energy Costs
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John.

Some options to consider for geothermal/ground source heat pumps.

1, Build a new house with a water storage "vault" beneath the floor similar to
  Al Capone's hidden room that Heraldo Rivera opened in the mid 80s.

2, Flood your basement for the duration.

3, Rent a backhoe (be sure to call the toll free before -you-dig service) and
dig a 15 ft wide x 30 ft long x 7 ft deep pit  so that a 25 ft x 40 ft  bubble wrap insulated
integrated water solar collector area can store up to 2 million BTU/day (10 deg F temperature rise) with 6 hrs   300 BTU/square ft ( ~10% of normal solar incidence) and run it open loop
for heating and summer cooling.
4, Build that swimming pool you've always wanted and use plastic film and
Styrofoam around the upper perimeter to enlarge it's solar collection area to 1,00 square ft, at a foot or two depth.
5, Move to  Florida for the winter.  :-)

Frederick
----- Original Message ----- 
From: John Steck 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Sent: 9/6/05 10:51:41 AM 
Subject: RE: Alleviating Energy Costs


Thank you for forwarding the link.  Dropped an email to my local rep to give me a quote.  I will share with the class what I find out... 8^)

-john


-----Original Message-----
From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net] 
Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2005 8:21 AM
To: vortex-l
Subject: Re: Alleviating Energy Costs


Pricey no doubt, but maybe cheaper in the long run than predicted costs of natural gas, propane and heating oil.

http://www.trane.com/Residential/Products/HeatPumps/GroundSource/GroundSourcePage.asp

" Some homeowners are tapping into the earth for energy savings.They have found geothermal energy as a great source in heating and cooling their home. Many of these homeowners power their geothermal system with Trane's ground-source heat pumps. They know that Trane offers high efficiency equipment, ranging from 13 to 22.8 EER (Energy Efficiency Ratio) and from 2.7 to 3.9 COP (co-efficiency of performance) to provide some of the greatest energy savings and home comfort found in geothermal design. "

I have a Trane central heat system in the ten year old city home we bought in Feb 2004.
located next to some ancient volcanos.

Hmmm.  :-)

Frederick
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Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

<HTML style="FONT-SIZE: x-small; FONT-FAMILY: MS Sans Serif"><HEAD><TITLE>Message</TITLE>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=us-ascii">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV>
<DIV>John.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Some options to consider for geothermal/ground source heat pumps.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>1, Build a new house with a water storage "vault" beneath the floor similar to</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;Al Capone's hidden room that Heraldo Rivera opened in the mid 80s.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>2, Flood your basement for the duration.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>3, Rent a backhoe (be sure to call the toll free before -you-dig service) and</DIV>
<DIV>dig a 15 ft wide x 30 ft long x 7 ft deep pit&nbsp; so that a 25 ft x 40 ft&nbsp; bubble wrap insulated</DIV>
<DIV>integrated water solar collector area can store up to 2 million BTU/day (10 deg F temperature rise) with 6 hrs   300 BTU/square ft ( ~10% of normal solar incidence) and run it open loop</DIV>
<DIV>for heating and summer cooling.</DIV>
<DIV>4, Build that swimming pool you've always wanted and use plastic film and</DIV>
<DIV>Styrofoam around the upper perimeter to enlarge it's solar collection area to 1,00 square ft, at a foot or two depth.</DIV>
<DIV>5, Move to&nbsp; Florida for the winter.&nbsp; :-)</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>Frederick</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=johnsteck tetrahelix.com href="mailto:johnsteck@tetrahelix.com">John Steck</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To: </B><A title=vortex-l eskimo.com href="mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com">vortex-l@eskimo.com</A></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> 9/6/05 10:51:41 AM </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: Alleviating Energy Costs</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><FONT size=2>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff><SPAN class=562171815-06092005>Thank you for forwarding the link.&nbsp; Dropped an email to my local rep to give me a quote.&nbsp; I will share with the class what I find out... 8^)</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff><SPAN class=562171815-06092005></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff><SPAN class=562171815-06092005>-john</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, September 03, 2005 8:21 AM<BR><B>To:</B> vortex-l<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: Alleviating Energy Costs<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<P>
<DIV>Pricey no doubt, but maybe cheaper in the long run than predicted costs of natural gas, propane and heating oil.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://www.trane.com/Residential/Products/HeatPumps/GroundSource/GroundSourcePage.asp">http://www.trane.com/Residential/Products/HeatPumps/GroundSource/GroundSourcePage.asp</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>" Some homeowners are tapping into the earth for energy savings.They have found geothermal energy as a great source in heating and cooling their home. Many of these homeowners power their geothermal system with Trane's ground-source heat pumps. They know that Trane offers high efficiency equipment, ranging from 13 to 22.8 EER (Energy Efficiency Ratio) and from 2.7 to 3.9 COP (co-efficiency of performance) to provide some of the greatest energy savings and home comfort found in geothermal design. "</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>I have a Trane central heat system in the ten year old city home we bought in Feb 2004.</DIV>
<DIV>located next to some ancient volcanos.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Hmmm.&nbsp; :-)</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Frederick</DIV></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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R.O.Cornwall wrote:

>Global warming like most things in science *under investigation* is properly
>a hypothesis some would call it conjecture.
>
>What is wrong is to plunge the world into recession on the whim of someone's
>*pet theory* . . .

I do not buy this. Suppose, for the sake of argument, we agree that global 
warming does not exist. (Or, if you like, that it is not caused by carbon 
dioxide or any other human intervention.) Even in that case, *every single 
step* that has been recommended to combat global warming would also be 
beneficial in many other ways, and every step would also pay for itself. 
Weaning the world from fossil fuels would not plunge the world into a 
recession. On the contrary, it would ultimately increase wealth everywhere. 
(I will grant it will call for a massive initial investment.) Fossil fuels 
are unacceptable because cause pollution; they are far too expensive; they 
are inflexible; they give billions of dollars to people who are at war with 
us; and they can never produce enough energy to satisfy the needs of 6 
billion people. These are facts, not pet theories. We should stop using oil 
regardless. In fact, we should have phased it out 30 years ago.


>*Nothing exists* to implement Kyoto apart from nuclear power.

I disagree. Energy consumption could easily be reduced by half with 
improvements in efficiency. This would cost less than nothing. As one 
energy expert put it, improved efficiency "is not a free lunch; it is a 
lunch you are paid to eat." I am sure the US and Canada could double our 
efficiency because countries such as Italy and Japan already have. If our 
engineers cannot figure out how to do it, we can buy the technology from 
Japan. Automobiles are single biggest source of CO2, and they use oil, 
which is by far the most expensive fuel. They are also the most inefficient 
machines in common use. While we can double the efficiency of most 
machines, we can easily increase the efficiency of automobiles by factors 
ranging from 3 to 10, with hybrids and plug-in hybrids. Again, if our 
automobile companies are so inept they cannot figure out how to do this, 
the poor dears can simply license the technology from Toyota. That would be 
cheaper than paying the Saudis for more oil, and it has the added benefit 
that Toyota is not killing our soldiers every day, or planning to destroy 
our cities.

The other half of the problem -- energy production -- can be implemented 
with wind power for one-third the cost of nuclear power today, and probably 
one-tenth the cost by the time a significant number of turbines are 
erected. Of course nuclear power would also get cheaper if it were scaled 
up, but wind has been under development for a much shorter time, with much 
less funding than nuclear power.

Having said that, I agree the U.S. could use about a hundred more nuclear 
power plants in areas that do not have much wind. There is no need to build 
nuclear power plants in northern Europe. Given the offshore wind resources 
in the North Sea and around the UK and Ireland, it would be economic 
insanity to build more. Why force people to pay far more than they need to 
for electricity?

- Jed


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From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Global Warming - State of Fear
Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 15:36:13 -0400
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Michael Crichton makes an interesting analogy in his book on Global Warming:

"Imagine the composition of the Earth's atmosphere as a football field. Most of the atmosphere is nitrogen. So, starting from the goal line, nitrogen takes you all the way to the 78 yard line. And most of what's left is oxygen. Oxygen takes you to the 99 yard line. Most of what remains is the inert gas argon. Argon brings you within 3 1/2 inches of the goal line. That's pretty much the thickness of the chalk stripe. And how much of the remaining three inches is carbon dioxide? One inch.

"You are told carbon dioxide has increased in the last 50 years. Do you know how much it has increased, on our football field? Three-eighths of an inch -- less than the thickness of a pencil. Yet you are asked to believe that this tiny change has driven the entire planet into a dangerous warming pattern."


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep  6 13:04:06 2005
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Global Warming - State of Fear
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Terry Blanton wrote:

>Michael Crichton makes an interesting analogy in his book on Global Warming:
>. . . And how much of the remaining three inches is carbon dioxide? One inch.
>
>"You are told carbon dioxide has increased in the last 50 years. Do you 
>know how much it has increased, on our football field? Three-eighths of an 
>inch -- less than the thickness of a pencil. Yet you are asked to believe 
>that this tiny change has driven the entire planet into a dangerous 
>warming pattern."

That's asinine and outrageous. The concentration has increased by a third, 
from 280 ppm to 375 ppm, and if the present trend continues it will 
increase drastically in the near future. There are countless examples in 
physics, chemistry and especially catalysis in which tiny changes in the 
chemical makeup of a substance cause gigantic effects. It takes only a 
parts per million -- or even parts per billion -- of some substances to 
ruin a semiconductor or kill a person. Would Crichton mind if I increase 
the arsenic, mercury or dioxin in his water by a few parts per million?

The experts who say the change in CO2 may have a drastic effect on the 
atmosphere have good reasons to think so. Exhibit 1 is the fact that CO2 
has risen during ice ages. Even if these experts are wrong, the fact that 
the amounts are relatively small compared to the other components of the 
atmosphere is completely irrelevant. Crichton should be ashamed of himself 
are making a mockery of science, and for poisoning the well of public 
opinion with this kind of mischievous garbage. He is as bad as the 
anti-cold-fusion fanatics.

- Jed


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From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
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An interesting point.  This same point can be made about cyanide.  An 
average person weighs about 80,000 gm.  It takes about 50 mg of NaCN to 
kill an average person, which is only 0.0022 inches on the football 
field.  Obviously, a person can not be harmed by such a small distance.
No wonder the average person has no understanding of the real world when 
this kind of argument is used.

Ed

Terry Blanton wrote:

> Michael Crichton makes an interesting analogy in his book on Global Warming:
> 
> "Imagine the composition of the Earth's atmosphere as a football field. Most of the atmosphere is nitrogen. So, starting from the goal line, nitrogen takes you all the way to the 78 yard line. And most of what's left is oxygen. Oxygen takes you to the 99 yard line. Most of what remains is the inert gas argon. Argon brings you within 3 1/2 inches of the goal line. That's pretty much the thickness of the chalk stripe. And how much of the remaining three inches is carbon dioxide? One inch.
> 
> "You are told carbon dioxide has increased in the last 50 years. Do you know how much it has increased, on our football field? Three-eighths of an inch -- less than the thickness of a pencil. Yet you are asked to believe that this tiny change has driven the entire planet into a dangerous warming pattern."
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep  6 13:37:50 2005
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Subject: OFF TOPIC Magic marker technique to encourage evacuation
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An interesting observation about human psychology:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/06/opinion/06tierney.html

QUOTE:

[Jim] Judkins is one of the officials in charge of evacuating the Hampton 
Roads region around Newport News, Va. . . .

Instead of relying on a "Good Samaritan" policy -- the fantasy in New 
Orleans that everyone would take care of the neighbors -- the Virginia 
rescue workers go door to door [before a storm]. If people resist the plea 
to leave, Mr. Judkins told The Daily Press in Newport News, rescue workers 
give them Magic Markers and ask them to write their Social Security numbers 
on their body parts so they can be identified.

"It's cold, but it's effective," Mr. Judkins explained.

END QUOTE

My daughter told me that in Ireland in the old days, fishermen's wives used 
to knit them sweaters with unique and beautiful unique patterns for each 
clan and family. These are popular with tourists today. They did this so 
that when a body washed ashore they would recognize who it was by the 
sweater. (Perhaps they still do this?)

Colorful Japanese kokeshi dolls are also popular with the tourists, both 
Japanese and American. I doubt many tourists know how they originated. They 
were memorials to children killed by infanticide and abortion.

Past tragedy and misery are reborn as today's theme parks. Someone in 
Virginia recently started a weekend retreat for people who want to reenact 
Vietnam war battles, the way people reenact Civil War battles. I recall as 
a child I rode one of these amusement park rides someplace like Disneyland 
which swerved through a reenactment of the 1906 San Francisco earthquake. 
In 50 years amusement parks will feature airplanes crashing into the World 
Trade Center and the flooding of New Orleans.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep  6 13:40:36 2005
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From: OrionWorks <orionworks charter.net>
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To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Global Warming - State of Fear
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> Edmund Sez:
>
> An interesting point.  This same point can be made about
> cyanide.  An average person weighs about 80,000 gm.  It
> takes about 50 mg of NaCN to kill an average person,
> which is only 0.0022 inches on the football field. 
> Obviously, a person can not be harmed by such a small
> distance. No wonder the average person has no
> understanding of the real world when this kind of 
> argument is used.
> 
> Ed

I'm curious.

I haven't read Mr. Chrichton's book on Global Warming, so I can't say if he is or or is not arguing the position of excess Co2 build up in our atmosphere.

Never the less, I'm wondering if his "football field" comment may have been taken out of context.

Terry, have you read his book?

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

> Terry Blanton wrote:
> 
> > Michael Crichton makes an interesting analogy in his book on Global Warming:
> > 
> > "Imagine the composition of the Earth's atmosphere as a football field. Most of the atmosphere is nitrogen. So, starting from the goal line, nitrogen takes you all the way to the 78 yard line. And most of what's left is oxygen. Oxygen takes you to the 99 yard line. Most of what remains is the inert gas argon. Argon brings you within 3 1/2 inches of the goal line. That's pretty much the thickness of the chalk stripe. And how much of the remaining three inches is carbon dioxide? One inch.
> > 
> > "You are told carbon dioxide has increased in the last 50 years. Do you know how much it has increased, on our football field? Three-eighths of an inch -- less than the thickness of a pencil. Yet you are asked to believe that this tiny change has driven the entire planet into a dangerous warming pattern."
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 

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From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
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Subject: Re: Global Warming - State of Fear
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> From: OrionWorks 

> Terry, have you read his book?

Yes, quite enlightening.  Here's a review:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04361/431735.stm

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Upon further reflection of Chrichton's comments as quoted by Terry it does appear at least from my point of view that the author of "The Andromeda Strain" is indeed a skeptic in terms of believing in increased levels of Co2 as the cause of Global Warming.

We may still be missing the boat.

Forget about Co2. What about CH4?

I thought the real problem may be excess methane working its way into the atmosphere. It's my understanding that methane is a are more deadly heat sink.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

> 
> From: OrionWorks <orionworks charter.net>
> Date: 2005/09/06 Tue PM 03:39:40 CDT
> To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> Subject: Re: Global Warming - State of Fear
> 
> > Edmund Sez:
> >
> > An interesting point.  This same point can be made about
> > cyanide.  An average person weighs about 80,000 gm.  It
> > takes about 50 mg of NaCN to kill an average person,
> > which is only 0.0022 inches on the football field. 
> > Obviously, a person can not be harmed by such a small
> > distance. No wonder the average person has no
> > understanding of the real world when this kind of 
> > argument is used.
> > 
> > Ed
> 
> I'm curious.
> 
> I haven't read Mr. Chrichton's book on Global Warming, so I can't say if he is or or is not arguing the position of excess Co2 build up in our atmosphere.
> 
> Never the less, I'm wondering if his "football field" comment may have been taken out of context.
> 
> Terry, have you read his book?
> 
> Regards,
> Steven Vincent Johnson
> www.OrionWorks.com
> 
> > Terry Blanton wrote:
> > 
> > > Michael Crichton makes an interesting analogy in his book on Global Warming:
> > > 
> > > "Imagine the composition of the Earth's atmosphere as a football field. Most of the atmosphere is nitrogen. So, starting from the goal line, nitrogen takes you all the way to the 78 yard line. And most of what's left is oxygen. Oxygen takes you to the 99 yard line. Most of what remains is the inert gas argon. Argon brings you within 3 1/2 inches of the goal line. That's pretty much the thickness of the chalk stripe. And how much of the remaining three inches is carbon dioxide? One inch.
> > > 
> > > "You are told carbon dioxide has increased in the last 50 years. Do you know how much it has increased, on our football field? Three-eighths of an inch -- less than the thickness of a pencil. Yet you are asked to believe that this tiny change has driven the entire planet into a dangerous warming pattern."
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep  6 13:54:21 2005
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> From: OrionWorks

> Terry, have you read his book?

To be fair, here's an opposing viewpoint:

http://www.earthinstitute.columbia.edu/news/2004/story12-13-04b.html

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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Global Warming - State of Fear
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OrionWorks wrote:

>I haven't read Mr. Chrichton's book on Global Warming, so I can't say if 
>he is or or is not arguing the position of excess Co2 build up in our 
>atmosphere.

I have not read the book either, but the book reviews say he denies that 
CO2 is a contributing factor, for the reasons given in the extract by 
Terry, and the Post-Gazzette review he cited. This is sickening. "'State of 
Fear' is a valuable education in the guise of entertainment. Do yourself a 
favor and buy it." God help us!

I would not mind this if Chrichton were a typical ignorant thriller writer. 
But he has an M.D. and he knows a lot about real science. Most pulp 
thriller books and television movies are so ridiculous they are nothing to 
get upset about. They are harmless, escapist nonsense. "Jurassic Park" is a 
perfect example.

- Jed


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> Jed Sez:

> An interesting observation about human psychology:
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/06/opinion/06tierney.html
> 
> QUOTE:
> 
> [Jim] Judkins is one of the officials in charge of
> evacuating the Hampton 
> Roads region around Newport News, Va. . . .
> 
> Instead of relying on a "Good Samaritan" policy -- the
> fantasy in New Orleans that everyone would take care of
> the neighbors -- the Virginia rescue workers go door to
> door [before a storm]. If people resist the plea 
> to leave, Mr. Judkins told The Daily Press in Newport
> News, rescue workers give them Magic Markers and ask
> them to write their Social Security numbers 
> on their body parts so they can be identified.
> 
> "It's cold, but it's effective," Mr. Judkins explained.
> 
> END QUOTE
> 
> My daughter told me that in Ireland in the old days, 
> fishermen's wives used to knit them sweaters with unique
> and beautiful unique patterns for each clan and family.
> These are popular with tourists today. They did this so
> that when a body washed ashore they would recognize who
> it was by the sweater. (Perhaps they still do this?)
> 
> Colorful Japanese kokeshi dolls are also popular with the
> tourists, both Japanese and American. I doubt many
> tourists know how they originated. They 
> were memorials to children killed by infanticide and
> abortion.
> 
> Past tragedy and misery are reborn as today's theme
> parks. Someone in Virginia recently started a weekend
> retreat for people who want to reenact Vietnam war
> battles, the way people reenact Civil War battles. I
> recall as a child I rode one of these amusement park
> rides someplace like Disneyland which swerved through
> a reenactment of the 1906 San Francisco earthquake. 
> In 50 years amusement parks will feature airplanes
> crashing into the World Trade Center and the flooding
> of New Orleans.
> 
> - Jed

Speaking of magic markers and colorful sweaters,

For some weird reason these stories remind me of another true story that comes out of Japan where a certain kind of crab is thrown back into the sea because it's back looks like a human face. Please fill in the blanks here, Jed, but I believe the story is based on the belief that the shape of the crab's back, which look like faces of individuals, are feared to be lost ancestors as perceived by the fishermen. Because of the facial resemblance, the fishermen throw the crabs back rather than risking the possibly of eating an old relative.

More and more of the crabs are beginning to look more like human faces. The result of the perpetuation of this human belief is that this particular species has had its evolutionary path altered. 

A fine example of evolution at work.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

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> From: OrionWorks

> A fine example of evolution at work.

Ah!  The Samurai Crab!  From Carl Sagan's Cosmos series.  Not natural selection at work . . . artifical selection:

http://web.singnet.com.sg/~sctien/samurai_crabs.htm

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One comment on JR's earlier speculation:

> Past tragedy and misery are reborn as today's theme parks. 
> Someone in Virginia recently started a weekend retreat for 
> people who want to reenact Vietnam war battles, the way people 
> reenact Civil War battles. I recall as a child I rode one of 
> these amusement park rides someplace like Disneyland which 
> swerved through a reenactment of the 1906 San Francisco 
> earthquake. In 50 years amusement parks will feature airplanes 
> crashing into the World Trade Center and the flooding of New 
> Orleans.

Hmm.... methinks in 50 years, maybe much sooner - but after the 
advent of low-cost AI, and probably in the guise of the 
son-of-Xbox supercomputer - which technology will totally blur any 
real distinction between the real and the imaginary.... the 
amusement park ride will be much more exciting...

Something more akin to the setup for the 1990 movie "Total Recall" 
based on a PKD short story - in which Arnold Schwarzenegger takes 
an elebaorate "memory" trip... for "wholesale" i.e. it costs less 
than a real vacation.

However, in this future "ride," you get the same experience for a 
real bargain, and probably only need to put on the 
yarmulka-interface made famous in "Strange Days" or at worst, the 
goggles of "Brainstorm" (Natalia Nikolaevna Zakharenko's last 
movie). Maybe you will also add to your ride.

Nevertheless - in whatever form, by 2055, the Governator's 
cumbersome strap-in machine will surely be replaced by an 
amusement park ride, maybe even an Arcade game...or even moving 
out of the amusement park or arcade and into the home theatre.

The end result will indistinguishable from time travel (of the "12 
Monkeys" variety with drama attached... or better yet  The Grand 
Tour: Disaster in Time" a 1992 film.

This was a TV movie staring Jeff Daniels about observers from the 
future who have a "passport" to revisit disasters and to watch 
them occur... and then get the hell out of Dodge at the last 
second. It's well done. Another one is called "The Time Shifters". 
It also concerns visitors who goes back to view disasters.

Only with AI the experience will be the same with no risk. I 
imagine that many a teenager will stand in line to experience the 
view from the top of the WTC as the passenger jet comes in - 
remeber the famous PhotoShoped image - the "Tourist Guy" ? That 
would surely be worth a $7.50 ticket (present day equivalent - by 
2055 it will be about $100 large).
http://www.answers.com/topic/the-tourist-guy

Jones

BTW... Just reading the mind of Terry Blanton (the other SciFi 
movie trivia-freak on vortex).... in the context of "Total Recall" 
..."Strange Days" and "Brainstorm". Maybe for a small surcharge, 
you can also add to your riding experience one "Melina" i.e. 
Rachel Ticotin... she's the Governator's "slutty but 
athletic"...choice...err, former girlfriend or whatever (that's a 
quote from "Total Recall"... but who am I to argue with anyone who 
can beat out Lori/ Catherine Tramell). 

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> From: "Jones Beene"

> BTW... Just reading the mind of Terry Blanton (the other SciFi 
> movie trivia-freak on vortex).... in the context of "Total Recall" 
> ..."Strange Days" and "Brainstorm". 

Mmmmm, Natalie Wood . . . "INSIDE Daisy Clover" . . . now THAT's a ride.  

What did Wagner and Walken wrangle with?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natalie_Wood

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Harvey,

>Thanx for the answers there, a 1976 Scientific American article 
>shows that it can be done, but I have not yet read this article.

Here is the actual order 5 perfect cube, which can be magnified
http://cboyer.club.fr/multimagie/English/Perfectcubes.htm


This cube contains all the integers from 1 to 5^3 = 125. There are 
109 ways to get the magic sum 315, with its 25 rows, 25 columns, 
25 pillars, 4 triagonals, and 30 diagonals. The center number is 
63, which is to be expected since the magic sum divided by the 
number of planes (5)= 63.

It will be impossible to construct a perfect cube smaller than 
order 5.

None of the four existing standard magic cubes of order 3 is 
perfect, and the American mathematician Richard Schroeppel in the 
Artificial Intelligence Memo of the MIT (1972) proved that a magic 
cube of order 4 cannot be perfect.

Perhaps, therefore (returning to fiction), DNA should have let DT 
ponder a bit longer to arrive at 63 instead of 42  ;-)

It wasn't easy, for DEEP you know. As any software engineer can 
tell you, 42 in base ten is equal to '101010' in base two. This 
alternating pattern of ones and zeros could be said to have 
illustrated the enormity of DEEP Thought's indecision, starting 
from day "Count Zero" to now... about... you know... the Ultimate 
Question. After all, the base two representation of 63 is much 
more self-assured -  being 111111.

Of course, we can get really off-base... as in the original 
Hitchhiker's Guide radio show, where the "cave man" put out 
Scrabble stones and the sentence "What do you get if you multiply 
six by nine?" emerges, and then Arthur says "Six by nine? 
Forty-two? You know, I've always felt that there was something 
fundamentally wrong with the Universe." -- it is at this point 
that a faint and distant voice says "base thirteen!"

42 (base 13) is equal to 54 (base 10).  BTW the Sum of the Proper 
Divisors of 42
also =54.

Of Course -- Douglas Adams has been quoted as saying " You just 
don't write jokes in base 13!" but is there any other connection 
between 42 and 63?
Hmm... the divisors of the Positive Integer 126 are 1, 2, 3, 6, 7, 
9, 14, 18, 21, 42, 63, 126. That is tantalizing. But the trail has 
gone dead after that. 21 and 42 are both power numbers, so it is 
no surprise that 63 is way cool.... even if not necessarily the 
penultimate.

BTW, to dispel any myths about 42, Douglas Adams also admitted at 
times - "It was a joke. It had to be a number, an ordinary, 
smallish number, and I chose that one." Binary representations, 
base thirteen, Tibetan monks are all complete nonsense. I sat at 
my desk, stared into the garden and thought '42 will do' I typed 
it out. End of story 

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Before all the superannuated socialists who largely populate this list get 
your knickers in a twist, you should perhaps read Mr. Crichton's book.
I have read all of Michael Crichton's books including this one.  It's really
not up to his normal standard in terms of being a novel.  It's kind of second
rate fiction, but the appendix and the overall theme are worth the read.

Its point, however, is not the validity of the hypothesis of human induced 
global climate change, but that the many arguments against that idea are
largely ignored.  The most important issue dealt with in the book is the
politicization of science, ie., consensus science.  In my opinion, this sickness
has mostly taken over science as a whole, and especially in government-run
scientific agencies.  These people have completely forgotten that science
is supposed to be a search for the truth, not that the truth should be
twisted for political reasons.

The CDC, for example, was caught red-handed lying about the spread of
AIDS/HIV in the general (non-homosexual, non-drug addict) population.
In a public non-apology from the head of that agency, he said they "did it
in a good cause."  The far less publicized data-fudging and "curve fitting"
done by NOAA is so pervasive that you simply don't know what to believe
from them any more.  Changes in solar irradiance should be "normalized"
because, and I quote, "...the public might be led to believe that global
warming is not caused by human activity."

This kind of behavior is inexcusable among scientists.  I mean, why are we
paying these guys?  They are not scientists; they are politicians.

Jed wrote:

> The experts who say the change in CO2 may have a
>  drastic effect on the atmosphere have good reasons to
>  think so. Exhibit 1 is the fact that CO2 has risen during 
> ice ages. Even if these experts are wrong, the fact that  
> the amounts are relatively small compared to the other
>  components of the atmosphere is completely irrelevant.
> Crichton should be ashamed of himself are making a 
> mockery of science, and for poisoning the well of public
>  opinion with this kind of mischievous garbage. He is as
>  bad as the anti-cold-fusion fanatics.

Among actual climates scientists, there is no agreement at all about either
CO2 or human activity causing global warming.  The "experts" you are
talking about have no hard data to back up their argument whatever.
Correlation does not equal causation.  In other words, you could just as
easily argue that global warming has caused an increase in CO2 and not
the reverse.  In fact, that argument makes a lot more sense.  It is not Michael
Crichton who makes a mockery of science.  It is these herd-mentality consensus 
"scientists".

Now calm down and read this part very carefully, Jed and Ed.  It is the very 
"scientists" who wish to establish scientific principles based on consensus
who have suppressed cold fusion.  If not actually the same individuals, it is
those with the same herd instinct.  They attack those who dare question the
idea that human activity causes global warming with the same vehemence
as they attack anyone who dares suggest that cold fusion is real.  I know this
is a bitter pill to swallow, but if you think about it, the anti-cold-fusion-fanatics
and the CO2-causes-global-warming-fanatics are really the same people.
What do you want to bet that Robert Park and his pals at the APS are big
global warming fans?

Yes, I know I won't have convinced anyone here, but then again, I'm not finished.

M.

_______________________________________________
Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
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Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII


On Wed, 31  Aug  2005    19:01:11 -0700

Jed Rothwell wrote:
> 
> I would say I am praying for them, but alas I am stone cold atheist, and I do 
> not pray for anything.
> 
> - Jed

On Tue, 06 Sept 2005 14:08:12 -0700


Jed Rothwell wrote:
> This is sickening. "'State of Fear' is a valuable education in the guise of entertainment. Do yourself a favor and buy it." 
> God help us! 
That is a prayer,isn't it?
Frederick
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8
Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

<HTML style="FONT-SIZE: x-small; FONT-FAMILY: MS Sans Serif"><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=windows-1251">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<P>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>On Wed, 31 &nbsp;Aug&nbsp; 2005&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 19:01:11 -0700</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Jed Rothwell wrote:</DIV>
<DIV>&gt; </DIV>
<DIV>&gt; I would say I am praying for them, but alas I am stone cold atheist, and I do <BR>&gt; not pray for anything.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; - Jed</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=date>On Tue, 06 Sept 2005 14:08:12 -0700</SPAN><BR>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Jed Rothwell wrote:</DIV></DIV>
<P><FONT size=3><TT>&gt; This is sickening. "'State of </TT><TT>Fear' is a valuable education in the </TT><TT>guise of entertainment. Do yourself a </TT><TT>favor and buy it." </TT></FONT></P>
<P><TT></TT><TT><FONT size=3><STRONG>&gt;</STRONG> God help us!</FONT> </TT></P>
<P><TT><FONT size=3>That is a prayer,isn't it?</FONT></TT></P>
<P><TT><FONT size=3>Frederick</FONT></TT></P>
<P><TT></TT>&nbsp;</P></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8--


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  7 01:52:39 2005
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Last week I posted about Pat Bailey's review of Peter Lindemann's 
Secrets of Cold Electricity. Having failed to arouse much interest, 
I've decided to do a review of Pat's review. There are several parts 
of the orthogonal electric part of this that I don't understand. 
According to Lindemann, the secondary energy is nonorthogonal, and 
subject to a different set of rules, which AFAIK, no one understands.

Having connected many electrical circuits to power supplies, it has 
been my experience that none of them got cold during their operation, 
heat pumps and Josephson Junctures get cold on one side, which is 
balanced by the hot side.

The following statements are what Dr. Lindemann contends to be the 
case. My comments are generally followed by a question mark. If you 
interrupt an electrical discharge within 100 nanoseconds, I assume 
that would be 1/ 10,000,000 of a second?  this effect will manifest. 
This interruption is best effected with a spark gap. This effect is 
most pronounced if the voltage source is a capacitor. When done 
correctly, there is a large power gain, and radiant energy, RE 
results. The source of this RE is said to be the Aether. This Aether 
is the stuff of which the fabric of space is composed. The most 
accurate model of this phenomena is the one put forth by Rudolph 
Steiner, I'm wondering, is this the same thing as the Orgone? The 
best source book on this model is Etheric Formative Forces in Cosmos, 
Earth and Man, by Dr. Guenther Wachsmuth, Dr. Bailey is looking for a 
copy of this book.

Three of Tesla's patents cover his research into the area: 593,138 
Electrical Transformer, 685,958 Method of Utilizing Radiant Energy, 
and 787,412, Transmitting Electrical Energy through the Natural 
Mediums.Tesla's work was also sited by the patentee of the HAARP 
patent, Gerry Vassilatos' book Project HAARP and Beyond, is 
mentioned. The transformer references refer to direct current, 
impulse technology, not his AC Tesla coils. I find this puzzling 
because AFAIK, all transformers utilize AC. I assume that he is 
talking about pulsated DC, AKA square waves? Tesla was discharging 
capacitors through magnetically quenched spark gaps. When this 
equipment if operated under "impulse applications," pure aetheric 
expulsions produce radiant matter and, RE. This RE is not to be 
confused with light, because it is quite unlike any light.

This RE is produced when high voltage direct current is discharged 
across a spark gap and interrupted before any reversals of current 
can occur. I don't understand this reversal of current.   The RE 
leaves the conductors in a direction perpendicular to the  flow of 
the current.

I'm wondering if this energy manifests itself in any particular 
direction, or is it donut shaped. This reminds of of something I 
read. If two sound waves are fed into the top of a T tube. and the 
waves are so configured that they destructively interfere, an energy 
manifests in the leg of the T. I'm wondering about the nature of this 
vibration. Ditto for this energy, because it is longitudinal, I'm 
wondering it is the same as nonorthogonal? When attempting to 
understand energy it is necessary to visualize it, given it's name, 
the energy appears do that on it's own. The late Otto Schmitt 
theorized that it might be possible to produce the electrodynamic 
equivalent of a Tsunami wave. He also mentioned a course that he had 
taken as a graduate student on nonorthogonal energy. I assume that 
this is a Rayleigh Wave? It seems to me, that in order to use this 
energy, it will have to be channeled, I assume that this can be done 
with a wave guide? I'm wondering how to build one?

This energy is said to be spatially distributed, I have no idea what 
that means. It is said to propagate instantaneously, I assume this 
means faster than C. and behaves similarly to an incompressible gas 
under pressure. I assume this means an ideal gas.

The electro-radiant event produces a spatially distributed voltage. I 
have no idea what that means. The electro-radiant effects are solely 
characterized by the impulse duration and the voltage drop in the 
spark gap. The RE can penetrate all materials, and create electronic 
response in conductors. When done properly, meaning pulses of less 
than 100 nanoseconds, the secondary vibrations are safe to handle. 
They  produce lightening effects in vacuum globes.

Tesla's observations conflicted with Maxwell's equations, and the 
work of Hertz and Helmholtz. I have heard that Maxwell's equations 
were originally written in Quaternain mathematics, and explained RE 
too, however Heavyside rewrote them in a simpler form. It would seem 
to me that Tesla would have known this.

Lindemann also mentions: Gray's Motor. The Testatika Machine, T Henry 
Moray's Energy Machine, IMHO, he should have included the Newman 
Motor, which got cool when it ran.

This technology is unpatentable because of the National Emergency War 
Powers Act. I have wondered why this would be the case, Matt Savinar 
of  www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net , says that the fractional reserve 
banking system, which is keeping our economy afloat, is dependent on 
an ever increasing volume of oil production. This explains why the 
Powers That Be, have adopted one short sighted policy after another, 
in spite of the deleterious consequences to the environment.
















From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  7 03:53:07 2005
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Yes Grimer,
I know, it's not right! Anything classified as fuel and Customs and Excise
will come down on you like a ton of lead. Customs and Excise in this country
dates back 2000 years to the Roman occupation. It is an antiquated body
sometimes with more power than the police! *You do not* want to mess with
them!
Remi. 

-----Original Message-----
From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On
Behalf Of Grimer
Sent: 06 September 2005 16:39
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: RE: 90mpg

At 03:39 pm 06/09/2005 +0100, you wrote:
>John,
>I'll look into this. I'm not expert here. I think my friend is talking
a.se,
>once he said diesels are capable of efficiencies of over 80%.
>
>I imagine if you kick a hole in the footwells and stick your feet out like
>the Flintstones you can have any amount of efficiency you desire :) Or get
>Dino to tow you.
>R.



I know someone who runs his second hand diesel on cooking oil from 
the local Tesco. He swears it runs more smoothly than on conventional
diesel. He tells me that quite a few people run their cars on used 
cooking oil from the local chippy. The only problem there is the 
used stuff pongs a bit and is likely to attract attention from the 
fuzz.


Frank

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  7 04:05:45 2005
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Jed Yes,
On energy efficiency and some scope for 'green' alternatives.

Believe me, lack of the economic growth is no means to deal with
catastrophes nature will inevitably throw at us. 

Take a leaf out of sub-Saharan Africa... 

Millennia and nothing to show for it except mud-huts and self-inflicted
genocide. There is only so much Bob Geldof can do and I don't doubt the
sincerity of left leaning folk.

Economic growth means Power, Water and Sewerage, Hospitals and Medicine,
Schools and Universities to provide a steady stream of professionals.

That's what makes me angry about the left. Why does Africa have to be any
different? Ultimately *it will have to* become an economic power and fend
for itself.

On a micro-economic level what has the welfare cheque down for
Afro-Americans (and elsewhere?) - it lead to dependency. Why is it that any
other immigrant community that comes into a country rapidly with 2
generations becomes economically sufficient?

I tell you it's the leaders... The "vote for me, I'll give you services and
rip off those you hate, sell your soul my agenda" is no different than any
African dictator or revolutionary turned despot.


Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  7 04:11:51 2005
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From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk
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Subject: RE: Global Warming - State of Fear
Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 12:10:58 +0100 
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Edmund, 
To be fair Global Warming is at the Conjecture to Hypothesis level of the
science spectrum. Properly it is proto-science.

Putting every bad bit of weather down to global warming is like living in a
state of fear and imagining every Muslim is a terrorist.

Look what freedoms we are giving up in this belief that we're all about to
be attacked by a few nutball terrorists.

By analogy we might take it on that GW should be *considered* and tentative
policy changes implemented. We might take it on too that the increase in
terrorism is due to dissatisfaction and that foreign policy might be
wrong... but not all wrong surely!?

R. 

-----Original Message-----
From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On
Behalf Of Edmund Storms
Sent: 06 September 2005 21:08
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Global Warming - State of Fear

An interesting point.  This same point can be made about cyanide.  An 
average person weighs about 80,000 gm.  It takes about 50 mg of NaCN to 
kill an average person, which is only 0.0022 inches on the football 
field.  Obviously, a person can not be harmed by such a small distance.
No wonder the average person has no understanding of the real world when 
this kind of argument is used.

Ed

Terry Blanton wrote:

> Michael Crichton makes an interesting analogy in his book on Global
Warming:
> 
> "Imagine the composition of the Earth's atmosphere as a football field.
Most of the atmosphere is nitrogen. So, starting from the goal line,
nitrogen takes you all the way to the 78 yard line. And most of what's left
is oxygen. Oxygen takes you to the 99 yard line. Most of what remains is the
inert gas argon. Argon brings you within 3 1/2 inches of the goal line.
That's pretty much the thickness of the chalk stripe. And how much of the
remaining three inches is carbon dioxide? One inch.
> 
> "You are told carbon dioxide has increased in the last 50 years. Do you
know how much it has increased, on our football field? Three-eighths of an
inch -- less than the thickness of a pencil. Yet you are asked to believe
that this tiny change has driven the entire planet into a dangerous warming
pattern."
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  7 04:13:16 2005
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: RE: OFF TOPIC Magic marker technique to encourage evacuation
Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 12:12:18 +0100 
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That's the way!!
Don't let the state use force!
It's not constitutional!

-----Original Message-----
From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On
Behalf Of Jed Rothwell
Sent: 06 September 2005 21:36
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: OFF TOPIC Magic marker technique to encourage evacuation

An interesting observation about human psychology:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/06/opinion/06tierney.html

QUOTE:

[Jim] Judkins is one of the officials in charge of evacuating the Hampton 
Roads region around Newport News, Va. . . .

Instead of relying on a "Good Samaritan" policy -- the fantasy in New 
Orleans that everyone would take care of the neighbors -- the Virginia 
rescue workers go door to door [before a storm]. If people resist the plea 
to leave, Mr. Judkins told The Daily Press in Newport News, rescue workers 
give them Magic Markers and ask them to write their Social Security numbers 
on their body parts so they can be identified.

"It's cold, but it's effective," Mr. Judkins explained.

END QUOTE

My daughter told me that in Ireland in the old days, fishermen's wives used 
to knit them sweaters with unique and beautiful unique patterns for each 
clan and family. These are popular with tourists today. They did this so 
that when a body washed ashore they would recognize who it was by the 
sweater. (Perhaps they still do this?)

Colorful Japanese kokeshi dolls are also popular with the tourists, both 
Japanese and American. I doubt many tourists know how they originated. They 
were memorials to children killed by infanticide and abortion.

Past tragedy and misery are reborn as today's theme parks. Someone in 
Virginia recently started a weekend retreat for people who want to reenact 
Vietnam war battles, the way people reenact Civil War battles. I recall as 
a child I rode one of these amusement park rides someplace like Disneyland 
which swerved through a reenactment of the 1906 San Francisco earthquake. 
In 50 years amusement parks will feature airplanes crashing into the World 
Trade Center and the flooding of New Orleans.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  7 04:23:11 2005
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Buy Your EV Now
References: <20050905142354.MKKK22439.ibm60aec.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <6.2.1.2.2.20050905105008.04582250@pop.mindspring.com>
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The two catches with Electric cars.

    * The batteries have to be anchored in such a way that they don't go
      flying around in a crash. This means that most retrofits are
      illegal and factory built EV have to be reinforced heavily. Its a
      major cost and design problem.
    * The batteries are often 60 to 80% the cost of the car but must be
      replaced after only a few years of use, a few hundred
      charge/discharge cycles if your lucky. 500-600 for lead acid
      batteries. This means your replacing 70% of the cars value each
      two years or so.

There are several innovations that help. One solution is to buy the car 
and rent the batteries. That would make EV much cheaper but rental of 
the batteries is not yet profitable.
Another is the metal air cells from http://www.evionyx.com/vision.htm
The third is flywheels 
http://energy.sourceguides.com/businesses/byP/batP/batt/btora/bType/fly/fly.shtml
And compressed air http://www.theaircar.com/
I have a paper on the air car in the cue in the Infinite Energy 
magazine. Its passed peer review apparently. The air car is the one that 
will benefit most from the advent of cold fusion energy sources and is 
best placed to serve as an early deployment of CF in a vehicular 
context. It can convert heat into work in the most efficient way.

Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Terry Blanton wrote:
>
>> These folks convert old junkers:
>>
>> http://www.e-volks.com/index.html
>
>
> Wonderful! It is a zany idea, but so were the first backyard hippy 
> wind turbines in Denmark in the 1980s. A carpenter named Christian 
> Riisager launched the Danish wind industry with a 22 kW backyard wind 
> turbine, and now the industry employs 20,000 people and manufactures 
> 3,100 MW (nameplate) per year, or the equivalent of 1.1 average U.S. 
> nuclear power plants (actual). See:
>
> http://www.windpower.org/en/pictures/eighties.htm
>
> This site describes a Geo Metro conversion: "This Geo Metro EV has 
> been clocked at just over 70mph at 96 vdc, with good cooling. The 
> motor consumes approx. 120-150 amps on flat ground at cruising speed." 
> That is better performance than the original equipment gasoline engine.
>
> Describing the VW: "The Batteries can also be installed under the back 
> seat or in the engine compartment if desired.Some have even cut out 
> the top of the gas tank and installed 4 batteries there. This set-up 
> is fully upgradeable to higher voltages, up to 96vdc and 16 batteries 
> for a top speed of 70+ MPH and a range of up to 70 miles per charge. . 
> . . Regen braking is inherant in this basic kit by simply down 
> shifting , and watching the amp meter go backwards." I love it!!!
>
> - Jed
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  7 04:43:12 2005
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Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 21:42:08 +1000
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Chimpanzee genome decoded
References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050901160224.054188d0 pop.mindspring.com> <000b01c5b282$32c74560$777bccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT>
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Mike Carrell wrote:

>From: "Jed Rothwell" <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
>Subject: OFF TOPIC Chimpanzee genome decoded
>
>
>  
>
>>Just like us, almost. See:
>>
>>http://www.wired.com/news/medtech/0,1286,68706,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_10
>>
>>QUOTE:
>>
>>"[Human and chimp] DNA remains highly similar -- about 96 percent to
>>    
>>
>almost
>  
>
>>99 percent identical, depending on how the comparison is made.
>>    
>>
>
>I think what is talked about here are the genes, which comprise only a quite
>small portion of the actual DNA, the rest once regarded as "junk", not
>conserved, and so used for individual identification. I have seen mention
>that the genes encode for the proteins common throughout many species as
>"building material", and the "junk" is the much more complex assembly
>instructions on how to make a human or a chimp. We eat the building material
>provided by other organisms, and rearrange it accoring to our own building
>plans.
>
>Mike Carrell
>
>
>
>  
>
Mike's right but there is another reason why the genes are similar. With 
a limited number of biologically active chemicals and thus a limited 
number of stable amino acids; there are thus also a limited number of 
peptide and protein active geometries possible. If you want to break a 
carbon hydrogen bond and make a carbon nitrogen bond with a hydrogen and 
a hydroxyl attached to the nitrogen there are perhaps only a few amino 
acid geometries available. Since DNA must code for them in a specific 
way the code winds up the same even if they are completely different in 
origin. The evolutionist argument that such similarities indicate linage 
is not as robust if there are limited options. Also the creationist 
argument that such similarities indicate a common designer is equally 
weakened if the designer is limited, or limits himself to, working 
within the framework defined by chemical bonds.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  7 05:22:38 2005
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Magic marker technique to encourage evacuation
References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050906162024.04bf38b0 pop.mindspring.com>
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If you want the die hards to evacuate the best measure is to hand out 
air and water tight and lockable safes that can take the DVD and and 
other valuables. They need to be able to take the stuff with them or 
bolt the safe to the structure of the house. Those that will not leave 
New Orleans today are those that simply don't trust the government when 
it tells them that it can secure their house.

Some are rent control tenets who know that if they leave the owner will 
take the opportunity to evict them and the poor tenet knows he can't 
raise another bond.

Some who refuse to leave are people that don't want to be counted. 
People with arrest warrants out for them. They know that they'll be 
asked too many questions in the evacuees center.

I worked in such a facility during the Canberra Fires disaster, we lost 
three suburbs to a bush firestorm. One mess we had to deal with was a 
gentleman who refused to go into the center to be assessed, he also 
clearly needed first aid. Why did he refuse? He was on a court order 
never to go near his ex wife and she was in the building, we had to fix 
him up in the car park. We had one other refugee who was under 'house 
arrest' and faced jail if he left home without seeking prier permission. 
A month later some idiot lawyer tried to throw this person in jail for 
evacuating! The judge nearly put the state prosecutor in jail for gross 
stupidity.

When we finished sorting though the mess of several thousand homeless 
evacuees we found our selves stuck with several people and one whole 
family; they had been homeless before the fires. One, a pyromaniac, was 
banned from every public and private housing agency in the country. 
Three guesses why.

Jed Rothwell wrote:

> An interesting observation about human psychology:
>
> http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/06/opinion/06tierney.html
>
> QUOTE:
>
> [Jim] Judkins is one of the officials in charge of evacuating the 
> Hampton Roads region around Newport News, Va. . . .
>
> Instead of relying on a "Good Samaritan" policy -- the fantasy in New 
> Orleans that everyone would take care of the neighbors -- the Virginia 
> rescue workers go door to door [before a storm]. If people resist the 
> plea to leave, Mr. Judkins told The Daily Press in Newport News, 
> rescue workers give them Magic Markers and ask them to write their 
> Social Security numbers on their body parts so they can be identified.
>
> "It's cold, but it's effective," Mr. Judkins explained.
>
> END QUOTE
>
> My daughter told me that in Ireland in the old days, fishermen's wives 
> used to knit them sweaters with unique and beautiful unique patterns 
> for each clan and family. These are popular with tourists today. They 
> did this so that when a body washed ashore they would recognize who it 
> was by the sweater. (Perhaps they still do this?)
>
> Colorful Japanese kokeshi dolls are also popular with the tourists, 
> both Japanese and American. I doubt many tourists know how they 
> originated. They were memorials to children killed by infanticide and 
> abortion.
>
> Past tragedy and misery are reborn as today's theme parks. Someone in 
> Virginia recently started a weekend retreat for people who want to 
> reenact Vietnam war battles, the way people reenact Civil War battles. 
> I recall as a child I rode one of these amusement park rides someplace 
> like Disneyland which swerved through a reenactment of the 1906 San 
> Francisco earthquake. In 50 years amusement parks will feature 
> airplanes crashing into the World Trade Center and the flooding of New 
> Orleans.
>
> - Jed
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  7 05:46:19 2005
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Subject: New Orleans; the aftermath
Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 07:45:27 -0500
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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BlankA few years back A flood caught Houston sleeping. Flood water =
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all had standby diesel powered electric generators located in the =
basement adjacent to the incoming underground electric power service and =
switchgear. Supposedly, thereafter, every city and hospital was notified =
 of the potential risk of locating standby power supplies below grade =
level where flood waters can disable generators and swithgear. Storm =
doors and larger sump pumps were later added after the recovery.

Only a small segment of New Orleans should ever be rebuilt. There is no =
way to provide protection for future flooding unless the city is rebuilt =
upon the mother of all gambling casino barges... hmmm !

Richard



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Cow farts.... the 3rd largest source of methane release on the planet.
http://www.epa.gov/methane/sources.html

Cow-talitic converters?


-----Original Message-----
From: OrionWorks [mailto:orionworks charter.net] 
Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2005 3:51 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Global Warming - State of Fear


Upon further reflection of Chrichton's comments as quoted by Terry it does
appear at least from my point of view that the author of "The Andromeda
Strain" is indeed a skeptic in terms of believing in increased levels of Co2
as the cause of Global Warming.

We may still be missing the boat.

Forget about Co2. What about CH4?

I thought the real problem may be excess methane working its way into the
atmosphere. It's my understanding that methane is a are more deadly heat
sink.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

> 
> From: OrionWorks <orionworks charter.net>
> Date: 2005/09/06 Tue PM 03:39:40 CDT
> To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> Subject: Re: Global Warming - State of Fear
> 
> > Edmund Sez:
> >
> > An interesting point.  This same point can be made about cyanide.  
> > An average person weighs about 80,000 gm.  It takes about 50 mg of 
> > NaCN to kill an average person, which is only 0.0022 inches on the 
> > football field. Obviously, a person can not be harmed by such a 
> > small distance. No wonder the average person has no
> > understanding of the real world when this kind of 
> > argument is used.
> > 
> > Ed
> 
> I'm curious.
> 
> I haven't read Mr. Chrichton's book on Global Warming, so I can't say 
> if he is or or is not arguing the position of excess Co2 build up in 
> our atmosphere.
> 
> Never the less, I'm wondering if his "football field" comment may have 
> been taken out of context.
> 
> Terry, have you read his book?
> 
> Regards,
> Steven Vincent Johnson
> www.OrionWorks.com
> 
> > Terry Blanton wrote:
> > 
> > > Michael Crichton makes an interesting analogy in his book on 
> > > Global Warming:
> > > 
> > > "Imagine the composition of the Earth's atmosphere as a football 
> > > field. Most of the atmosphere is nitrogen. So, starting from the 
> > > goal line, nitrogen takes you all the way to the 78 yard line. And 
> > > most of what's left is oxygen. Oxygen takes you to the 99 yard 
> > > line. Most of what remains is the inert gas argon. Argon brings 
> > > you within 3 1/2 inches of the goal line. That's pretty much the 
> > > thickness of the chalk stripe. And how much of the remaining three 
> > > inches is carbon dioxide? One inch.
> > > 
> > > "You are told carbon dioxide has increased in the last 50 years. 
> > > Do you know how much it has increased, on our football field? 
> > > Three-eighths of an inch -- less than the thickness of a pencil. 
> > > Yet you are asked to believe that this tiny change has driven the 
> > > entire planet into a dangerous warming pattern."
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> 


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  7 06:15:41 2005
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From: "John Steck" <johnsteck tetrahelix.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Alleviating Energy Costs
Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 08:14:26 -0500
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I guess when my sump failed last month I should have taken the hint and
continued down path #2....  8^)
=20
=20
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net]=20
Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2005 12:42 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: RE: Alleviating Energy Costs


John.
=20
Some options to consider for geothermal/ground source heat pumps.
=20
1, Build a new house with a water storage "vault" beneath the floor =
similar
to
  Al Capone's hidden room that Heraldo Rivera opened in the mid 80s.
=20
2, Flood your basement for the duration.
=20
3, Rent a backhoe (be sure to call the toll free before -you-dig =
service)
and
dig a 15 ft wide x 30 ft long x 7 ft deep pit  so that a 25 ft x 40 ft
bubble wrap insulated
integrated water solar collector area can store up to 2 million BTU/day =
(10
deg F temperature rise) with 6 hrs   300 BTU/square ft ( ~10% of normal
solar incidence) and run it open loop
for heating and summer cooling.
4, Build that swimming pool you've always wanted and use plastic film =
and
Styrofoam around the upper perimeter to enlarge it's solar collection =
area
to 1,00 square ft, at a foot or two depth.
5, Move to  Florida for the winter.  :-)
=20
Frederick

----- Original Message -----=20
From: John  <mailto:johnsteck tetrahelix.com> Steck=20
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Sent: 9/6/05 10:51:41 AM=20
Subject: RE: Alleviating Energy Costs

Thank you for forwarding the link.  Dropped an email to my local rep to =
give
me a quote.  I will share with the class what I find out... 8^)
=20
-john
=20
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net]=20
Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2005 8:21 AM
To: vortex-l
Subject: Re: Alleviating Energy Costs





Pricey no doubt, but maybe cheaper in the long run than predicted costs =
of
natural gas, propane and heating oil.
=20
http://www.trane.com/Residential/Products/HeatPumps/GroundSource/GroundSo=
urc
ePage.asp
=20
" Some homeowners are tapping into the earth for energy savings.They =
have
found geothermal energy as a great source in heating and cooling their =
home.
Many of these homeowners power their geothermal system with Trane's
ground-source heat pumps. They know that Trane offers high efficiency
equipment, ranging from 13 to 22.8 EER (Energy Efficiency Ratio) and =
from
2.7 to 3.9 COP (co-efficiency of performance) to provide some of the
greatest energy savings and home comfort found in geothermal design. "
=20
I have a Trane central heat system in the ten year old city home we =
bought
in Feb 2004.
located next to some ancient volcanos.
=20
Hmmm.  :-)
=20
Frederick


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<HTML style=3D"FONT-SIZE: x-small; FONT-FAMILY: MS Sans Serif"><HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<TITLE>Message</TITLE>

<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2722" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff><SPAN =
class=3D782535812-07092005>I guess when=20
my sump failed last month I should have taken the hint and continued =
down path=20
#2....&nbsp; 8^)</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft><FONT=20
face=3DTahoma>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Frederick =
Sparber=20
[mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, September 06, =
2005=20
12:42 PM<BR><B>To:</B> vortex-l eskimo.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: =
Alleviating=20
Energy Costs<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>John.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Some options to consider for geothermal/ground source heat =
pumps.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>1, Build a new house with a water storage "vault" beneath the floor =
similar=20
to</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;Al Capone's hidden room that Heraldo Rivera opened in =
the mid=20
80s.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>2, Flood your basement for the duration.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>3, Rent a backhoe (be sure to call the toll free before -you-dig =
service)=20
and</DIV>
<DIV>dig a 15 ft wide x 30 ft long x 7 ft deep pit&nbsp; so that a 25 ft =
x 40=20
ft&nbsp; bubble wrap insulated</DIV>
<DIV>integrated water solar collector area can store up to 2 million =
BTU/day (10=20
deg F temperature rise) with 6 hrs   300 BTU/square ft ( ~10% of normal =
solar=20
incidence) and run it open loop</DIV>
<DIV>for heating and summer cooling.</DIV>
<DIV>4, Build that swimming pool you've always wanted and use plastic =
film=20
and</DIV>
<DIV>Styrofoam around the upper perimeter to enlarge it's solar =
collection area=20
to 1,00 square ft, at a foot or two depth.</DIV>
<DIV>5, Move to&nbsp; Florida for the winter.&nbsp; :-)</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>Frederick</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3Djohnsteck tetrahelix.com =
href=3D"mailto:johnsteck tetrahelix.com">John=20
  Steck</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To: </B><A =
title=3Dvortex-l eskimo.com=20
  href=3D"mailto:vortex-l eskimo.com">vortex-l@eskimo.com</A></DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> 9/6/05 10:51:41 AM </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: Alleviating Energy =

  Costs</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff><SPAN =
class=3D562171815-06092005>Thank you=20
  for forwarding the link.&nbsp; Dropped an email to my local rep to =
give me a=20
  quote.&nbsp; I will share with the class what I find out...=20
  8^)</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff><SPAN=20
  class=3D562171815-06092005></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff><SPAN=20
  class=3D562171815-06092005>-john</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft><FONT=20
  face=3DTahoma>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Frederick =
Sparber=20
  [mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, September =
03, 2005=20
  8:21 AM<BR><B>To:</B> vortex-l<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: Alleviating =
Energy=20
  Costs<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
  <P>
  <DIV>Pricey no doubt, but maybe cheaper in the long run than predicted =
costs=20
  of natural gas, propane and heating oil.</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><A=20
  =
href=3D"http://www.trane.com/Residential/Products/HeatPumps/GroundSource/=
GroundSourcePage.asp">http://www.trane.com/Residential/Products/HeatPumps=
/GroundSource/GroundSourcePage.asp</A></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>" Some homeowners are tapping into the earth for energy =
savings.They have=20
  found geothermal energy as a great source in heating and cooling their =
home.=20
  Many of these homeowners power their geothermal system with Trane's=20
  ground-source heat pumps. They know that Trane offers high efficiency=20
  equipment, ranging from 13 to 22.8 EER (Energy Efficiency Ratio) and =
from 2.7=20
  to 3.9 COP (co-efficiency of performance) to provide some of the =
greatest=20
  energy savings and home comfort found in geothermal design. "</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>I have a Trane central heat system in the ten year old city home =
we=20
  bought in Feb 2004.</DIV>
  <DIV>located next to some ancient volcanos.</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Hmmm.&nbsp; :-)</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Frederick</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  7 07:06:06 2005
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From: "Craig Haynie" <public craighaynie.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Subject: Re: Global Warming - State of Fear
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> Cow farts.... the 3rd largest source of methane release on the planet.
> http://www.epa.gov/methane/sources.html
>
> Cow-talitic converters?

But everyone here realizes, (right?), that biological emissions of such 
gasses do not contribute to global warming, because the carbon emitted from 
a biologic, into the environment, was carbon which was recently pulled by 
the biologic, from the environment. In other words, there is no net increase 
in greenhouse gasses due to biological life. The problem, (if there is a 
problem, and I'm not sure there is), occurs when carbon, which has been 
stored deep within the earth for eons, is now pulled from the ground and 
emitted into the environment, causing an increase in carbon dioxide in the 
atmosphere. This would be the only cause of additional greehnouse gasses in 
the atmosphere -- not biological life.

And, the only way to stop it, is to stop pulling carbon from the ground. It 
doesn't help to slow down the process, or reduce greenhouse gas emissions 
from cars. As long as carbon is pulled from places where it has not been a 
part of the environment, into the environment, there will be a gradual 
increase in CO2 in the atmosphere.

Craig Haynie (Houston)


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Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 00:11:29 +1000
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Subject: Re: New Orleans; the aftermath
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RC Macaulay wrote:

> A few years back A flood caught Houston sleeping. Flood water entered 
> the basements of major building and hospitals. These facilities all 
> had standby diesel powered electric generators located in the basement 
> adjacent to the incoming underground electric power service and 
> switchgear. Supposedly, thereafter, every city and hospital was 
> notified  of the potential risk of locating standby power supplies 
> below grade level where flood waters can disable generators and 
> swithgear. Storm doors and larger sump pumps were later added after 
> the recovery.
>  
> Only a small segment of New Orleans should ever be rebuilt. There is 
> no way to provide protection for future flooding unless the city is 
> rebuilt upon the mother of all gambling casino barges... hmmm !
>  
> Richard
>  
>
>  
>
You mean something like this.http://www.oceania.org/oceania.big.jpg or 
this http://www.ecoboot.nl/artikelen/floating_houses.php lets have the 
whole lot  
http://radio.weblogs.com/0119080/stories/2003/08/22/galleryOnTheWaterfront.html 

or grow your own reef like this http://www.wolfhilbertz.com/
I'm already writing on the subject. All I needs a publisher.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  7 07:21:58 2005
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Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 10:20:20 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Typhoon 14 hits Japan
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I wrote:

>It covers one of the largest areas on record, and in some areas it 
>produced 1300 mm of rain in a 24-hour period, the most ever recorded in Japan.

Correction: That was 1300 mm in a 72 hour period, from the time the rain 
began until the typhoon passed. This was recorded in Kyushu. It is 
equivalent to six months of ordinary rainfall there.

Damage seems remarkably light considering the amount of rain that fell.

- Jed


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Frederick Sparber wrote:

> > This is sickening. "'State of Fear' is a valuable education in the 
> guise of entertainment. Do yourself a favor and buy it."
>
> > God help us!
>
>That is a prayer,isn't it?

It is a mere figure of speech, as Stalin probably told Churchill. (I think 
it was Churchill. After one of the big three conferences during World War 
II Churchill said "we must meet again" and Stalin replied, "God willing!")

- Jed


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Subject: Re: New Orleans; the aftermath
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On Thu, 2005-09-08 at 00:11 +1000, Wesley Bruce wrote:

> or grow your own reef like this http://www.wolfhilbertz.com/
> I'm already writing on the subject. All I needs a publisher.

And I wood recommend a spell chequer, two.

Knook

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  7 08:02:53 2005
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Wesley Bruce wrote:

> RC Macaulay wrote:
>
>> A few years back A flood caught Houston sleeping. Flood water entered 
>> the basements of major building and hospitals. These facilities all 
>> had standby diesel powered electric generators located in the 
>> basement adjacent to the incoming underground electric power service 
>> and switchgear. Supposedly, thereafter, every city and hospital was 
>> notified  of the potential risk of locating standby power supplies 
>> below grade level where flood waters can disable generators and 
>> swithgear. Storm doors and larger sump pumps were later added after 
>> the recovery.
>>  
>> Only a small segment of New Orleans should ever be rebuilt. There is 
>> no way to provide protection for future flooding unless the city is 
>> rebuilt upon the mother of all gambling casino barges... hmmm !
>>  
>> Richard
>>  
>>
>>  
>>
> You mean something like this: http://www.oceania.org/oceania.big.jpg 
> or this http://www.ecoboot.nl/artikelen/floating_houses.php lets have 
> the whole lot  
> http://radio.weblogs.com/0119080/stories/2003/08/22/galleryOnTheWaterfront.html 
>
> or grow your own reef like this http://www.wolfhilbertz.com/
> I'm already writing on the subject. All I needs a publisher.
>
Oops typo above.

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In order to partially dissent and elaborate on a previous comment =
yesterday about the "brilliant but controversial German philosopher =
Friedrich Nietzsche".... JR echoed a commonly-heard PC (politically =
correct) reaction: "Brilliant? In my opinion he was world-class jerk, =
and I despise the notion "that suffering is good for people."

Ah...despise him if you must, but understand him first - isn't =
=DCbermensch (as FN envisioned it, not as the Nazi's distorted it) =
really the one-and-only 'final solution' to suffering... or would you =
have them (the little people) swell the blood-sucking "Idle-Rich-Class" =
and become the downfall of us all ? <big G>=20

...and just to be clear about how to best express quasi-cynicism in a =
vo-post, <big G> means an extra-large smiley - IOW "not to be taken at =
face value".

Nietzsche was notoriously unread, even during his own lifetime, except =
by the other brilliant thinkers of the time. A list of his admirers =
reads like a who's-who of  20th century acumen. However, FN's ideas (in =
the geo-politics of the era ) suffered irreparable distortion in the =
hands of his own sister - who for her own purposes twisted his =
philosophy into full support for Nazism (Hitler had "Thus Spoke =
Zarathustra" issued to every soldier in the German army for a while). =
What a perversion! But not for the reasons you might surmise. =
=DCbermensch literally means "overman" but which is an  earned (possibly =
engineered) achievement, not a prerogative of wealth or heritage [not to =
be confused with the man of steel, nor racial (Aryan) superiority].=20

The real perversion is that many of the Jewish thinkers of the time, and =
especially in Eastern Europe, were actually closer to the Ubermensch =
goal than their Aryan counterparts - its not about 'race'.... its about =
results. Side note - some of the Jewish intellectual superiority may =
indeed be a genetic "defect" which results in a mixed blessing. A team =
of scientists at the University of Utah has proposed that the unusual =
pattern of genetic diseases seen among Jews of central or northern =
European origin, or Ashkenazim, is the result of "natural selection" but =
for what - obviously not for illness but for enhanced intellectual =
ability, so treasured by this group. Very ironic in this revised context =
of "Aryan-inferiority", wouldn't you say?
http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/2005/06/researchers_say.php

The rather short-sighted problem with any curt (but fairly accurate) =
appraisal of FN's misunderstood-elitism may overlook the fact that =
suffering is inevitable and endemic in a competitive animalistic world - =
and that "good for the individual" is far different from "good for the =
people" ... "people" being the species-ideal, or especially the emergent =
species (in an evolutionary sense). To overcome suffering in the =
long-term, we must elevate every individual to =DCbermensch - which is =
not the same as some kind of enforced suffering. And this is beginning =
to take on new meaning in the age of machine intelligence. Not to =
mention =DCbermensch is very, very ... neo-Buddhist in the post Zen =
tradition.

Some of today's PC-problem with FN (for males) goes back to Bergson or =
to George Bernard Shaw, especially his well-known play "Man and =
Superman".... an articulation of the recurrent Shavian =
gender-perfectionist-theme: man being the "brains" and =
cerebral-substitute-creator, whereas woman is the earthy (are you really =
necessary?) "life force" which must always eventually triumph (and then =
denigrate the male) in an imperfect biological world. Very =
pre-Pygmalion-esque. GBS was called the "English Nietzsche" but that is =
inaccurate in details. Both were genius-level thinkers and cherished a =
similar dream of a "kind of Superman" but getting there was a divergent =
issue - Nietzsche being an aristocrat and Shaw the socialist.=20

Both were possessed with enormous wit and intellectual curiosity =
masquerading as cynicism. Since GBS and his successors in theatre had =
the cultural imprimatur of most of us non-mutter-sprachers, the term =
'Superman' has become hopelessly vulgarized.... even before Hollywood... =
and combined with Nietzsche's mis-identification with the Nazi ideal of =
racial "purification" - all this has come to mean that the no important =
figure in modern history has become so misunderstood as Nietzsche.=20

Not that he was perfect.... he was not yet overman, just an aspirant. =
All the better, really... because Nietzsche... from the present =
revisionist-perspective... in the coming *AI-Age* which is not that far =
off - 10 years at most, will likely see an elevation to the penultimate =
level of admiration - but in a way he could have imagined. Ubermensch =
may become the new mantra for the next evolutionary jump (hybridized =
overman)... yet FN probably would have despised this further distortion.

Nietzsche is/was an easy target - and has few admirers to set the record =
straight today, as in seeking objective truth, he has managed to =
alienate the left, the right, the working man, the priest, the atheist, =
the humanist and the libertarian. Almost everyone except the =
intelligentsia and the contrarian. The only problem is... he probably =
remains, after all is said and done, one of the most profound thinkers =
of all time and in a revisionist perspective may attain that status.... =
that is, if others will invest the time and effort necessary to read =
between the lines and understand what is meant by his objective =
perspective. Even scientists balk at giving up the cherished ideal of =
"species identification."

To understand post Nietzsche revisionism, one must  totally divorce =
oneself from the physical heritage of being biologically human - a =
representative of an animal species -99% ape. Hard to do as it throws =
science and religion into even greater conflict. Nietzsche's =
perspective, in its ultimate intent, should take us beyond mankind, and =
even beyond the human-overman - to the next evolutionary step, =
overman-plus?.=20

The Wiki summary on the divinity-angle is not bad, except in its =
omission of the Buddhism connection: "Nietzsche's motivation for the =
claim 'God is dead' is the slow destruction of the real Christian =
conscience, i.e., a God-centered way of thinking." Only by breaking out =
of the idealistic but unrealistic norms can one aspire to become =
something greater. Tomorrow, =DCbermensch may evolve into something even =
old-Fred never imagined - a mix of biology and technology in one =
package. But the initial truth of Nietzsche's theology is that the =
church has become the exact opposite of what Jesus preached. Jesus =
preached love-not-war. The 700 Club, the immoral-majority in control of =
American politics, preaches war-not-love, guns-not-roses, and =
thinly-disguised racial hatred.=20

According to Nietzsche, the reason behind this unholy situation with =
organized religion, and the historical events leading up to the =
destruction of the real Christian conscience, was initiated by the =
arrogant apostle, Paul. It was Paul who caused the perversion of Jesus' =
teachings into a remedy-punishment doctrine, who endorsed slavery and =
male superiority - problems amplified by Catholic Church which took up =
Diana-worship in the form of the Madonna, in order to compensate for =
Paul's obvious misogyny. All of this has become so layered and perverse =
- a man-made invention with the unintended side effect of enforced =
mediocrity in the guise of humanism - that there is no future for it (in =
FN's view). The only solution is to dump the old version - thus "God is =
dead" is misinterpreted and is not a call for lack of spiritual =
commitment.

Zarathustra was the prototype for Nietzsche's overman - but what were =
the goals of that effort - then and now?  The notions of "creative =
evolution" espoused by Henri Bergson are another impediment to =
understanding because of the Nazi backlash. If we want to breed a =
superior guard dog, say the Doberman [to keep things Aryan]... then to =
accomplish this - for many generations, one must cull-out and (if =
economics is an issue) put-down the lesser animals and save only the =
best - in order to force the breed towards the goal. Even if the "goal" =
is "cuteness" i.e. the lapdog, rather than prowess as a feared and =
obedient guard, the same "suffering" must be inured by the lesser of the =
species. We accept this with other animals but balk at anything reeking =
of Aryanism. Is there a middle ground or is this situation too polarized =
for any accommodation?

Adding the semantically charged judgment "good" does not help in the =
ultimate evaluation. Either you want a superior breed (hybrid) or you =
don't. 'Good' and 'bad' are trite apologies for lack of will, according =
to Nietzsche.

On that point he is decidedly correct.

Jones=20

  At night, when all the world's asleep,
  The questions run so deep
  For such a simple man.
  Won't you please... please tell me what we have learned
  I know it sounds absurd
  But please tell me who I am.

  When I was young, it seemed that life was so wonderful,
  A miracle, oh it was beautiful, magical.
  And all the birds in the trees, well they'd be singing so happily,
  Joyfully, playfully watching me.
  But then they send me away to teach me how to be sensible,
  Logical, responsible, practical.
  And they showed me a world where I could be so dependable,
  Clinical, intellectual, cynical.

  There are times when all the world's asleep,
  The questions run too deep
  For such a simple man.
  Won't you please, tell me what we've learned
  I know it sounds absurd
  But please tell me who I am.

  Now watch what you say or they'll be calling you a radical,
  Liberal, fanatical, criminal.
  Won't you sign up your name, we'd like to feel you're
  Acceptable, respectable, presentable, a vegetable!
  I know it sounds absurd
  But please tell me who I am.
  ---with apologies to Superwench, err....=20


   
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff background=3D"">
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>In order to partially dissent and =
elaborate on a=20
previous comment yesterday about the "brilliant but controversial German =

philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche".... JR echoed a commonly-heard PC =
(politically=20
correct) reaction: "Brilliant? In my opinion he was world-class jerk, =
and I=20
despise the notion "that suffering is good for =
people."<BR><BR>Ah...despise him=20
if you must, but understand him first - isn't =DCbermensch (as FN =
envisioned it,=20
not as the Nazi's distorted it) really the one-and-only 'final solution' =
to=20
suffering... or would you have them (the little people) swell the =
blood-sucking=20
"Idle-Rich-Class" and become the downfall of us all ? &lt;big G&gt;=20
<BR><BR>...and just to be clear about how to best express quasi-cynicism =
in a=20
vo-post, &lt;big G&gt; means an extra-large smiley - IOW "not to be =
taken at=20
face value".<BR><BR>Nietzsche was notoriously unread, even during his =
own=20
lifetime, except by the other brilliant thinkers of the time. A list of =
his=20
admirers reads like a who's-who of&nbsp; 20th century acumen. However, =
FN's=20
ideas (in the geo-politics of the era ) suffered irreparable distortion =
in the=20
hands of his own sister - who for her own purposes twisted his =
philosophy into=20
full support for Nazism (Hitler had "Thus Spoke Zarathustra" issued to =
every=20
soldier in the German army for a while). What a perversion! But not for =
the=20
reasons you might surmise. =DCbermensch literally means "overman" but =
which is=20
an&nbsp; earned (possibly engineered) achievement, not a prerogative of =
wealth=20
or heritage [not to be confused with the man of steel, nor racial =
(Aryan)=20
superiority]. <BR><BR>The real perversion is that many of the Jewish =
thinkers of=20
the time, and especially in Eastern Europe, were actually closer to the=20
Ubermensch goal than their Aryan counterparts - its not about 'race'.... =
its=20
about results. Side note - some of the Jewish intellectual superiority =
may=20
indeed be a genetic "defect" which results in a mixed blessing. A team =
of=20
scientists at the University of Utah has proposed that the unusual =
pattern of=20
genetic diseases seen among Jews of central or northern European origin, =
or=20
Ashkenazim, is the result of "natural selection" but for what - =
obviously not=20
for illness but for enhanced intellectual ability, so treasured by this =
group.=20
Very ironic in this revised context of "Aryan-inferiority", wouldn't you =

say?<BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/2005/06/researchers_say.php"=
>http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/2005/06/researchers_say.php</A></FO=
NT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><BR>The rather short-sighted problem =
with any curt=20
(but fairly accurate) appraisal of FN's misunderstood-elitism may =
overlook the=20
fact that suffering is inevitable and endemic in a competitive =
animalistic world=20
- and that "good for the individual" is far different from "good for the =
people"=20
... "people" being the species-ideal, or especially the emergent species =
(in an=20
evolutionary sense). To overcome suffering in the long-term, we must =
elevate=20
every individual to =DCbermensch - which is not the same as some kind of =
enforced=20
suffering. And this is beginning to take on new meaning in the age of =
machine=20
intelligence. Not&nbsp;to mention&nbsp;=DCbermensch is very, very ... =
neo-Buddhist=20
in the post Zen tradition.</FONT></DIV><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2><!--StartFragment -->
<DIV><BR>Some of today's PC-problem with FN (for males) goes back to =
Bergson or=20
to George Bernard Shaw, especially his well-known play "Man and =
Superman".... an=20
articulation of the recurrent Shavian gender-perfectionist-theme: man =
being the=20
"brains" and cerebral-substitute-creator, whereas woman is the earthy =
(are you=20
really necessary?) =93life force=94 which must always eventually triumph =
(and then=20
denigrate the male) in an imperfect biological world. Very =
pre-Pygmalion-esque.=20
GBS was called the "English Nietzsche" but that is inaccurate in =
details. Both=20
were genius-level thinkers and cherished a similar dream of a "kind of =
Superman"=20
but getting there was a divergent issue - Nietzsche being an aristocrat =
and Shaw=20
the socialist. <BR><BR>Both were possessed with enormous wit and =
intellectual=20
curiosity masquerading as cynicism. Since GBS and his successors in =
theatre had=20
the cultural imprimatur of most of us non-mutter-sprachers, the term =
'Superman'=20
has become hopelessly vulgarized.... even before Hollywood... and =
combined with=20
Nietzsche's mis-identification with the Nazi ideal of racial =
"purification" -=20
all this has come to mean that the no important figure in modern history =
has=20
become so misunderstood as Nietzsche. <BR><BR>Not that he was =
perfect.... he was=20
not yet overman, just an aspirant. All the better, really... because=20
Nietzsche... from the present revisionist-perspective... in the coming =
*AI-Age*=20
which is not that far off - 10 years at most, will likely see an =
elevation to=20
the penultimate level of admiration - but in a way he could have =
imagined.=20
Ubermensch may become the new mantra for the next evolutionary jump =
(hybridized=20
overman)... yet FN probably would have despised this further=20
distortion.<BR><BR>Nietzsche is/was an easy target - and has few =
admirers to set=20
the record straight today, as in seeking objective truth, he has managed =
to=20
alienate the left, the right, the working man, the priest, the atheist, =
the=20
humanist and the libertarian. Almost everyone except the intelligentsia =
and the=20
contrarian. The only problem is... he probably remains, after all is =
said and=20
done, one of the most profound thinkers of all time and in a revisionist =

perspective may attain that status.... that is, if others will invest =
the time=20
and effort necessary to read between the lines and understand what is =
meant by=20
his objective perspective. Even scientists balk at giving up the =
cherished ideal=20
of "species identification."<BR><BR>To understand post Nietzsche =
revisionism,=20
one must&nbsp; totally divorce oneself from the physical heritage of =
being=20
biologically human - a representative of an animal species -99% ape. =
Hard to do=20
as it throws science and religion into even greater conflict. =
Nietzsche's=20
perspective, in its ultimate intent, should take us beyond mankind, and =
even=20
beyond the human-overman - to&nbsp;the next evolutionary step, =
overman-plus?.=20
<BR><BR>The Wiki summary on the divinity-angle is not bad, except in its =

omission of the Buddhism connection: "Nietzsche's motivation for the =
claim 'God=20
is dead' is the slow destruction of the real Christian conscience, i.e., =
a=20
God-centered way of thinking." Only by breaking out of the idealistic =
but=20
unrealistic norms can one aspire to become something greater. Tomorrow,=20
=DCbermensch may evolve into something even old-Fred never imagined - a =
mix of=20
biology and technology in one package. But the initial truth of =
Nietzsche's=20
theology is that the church has become the exact opposite of what Jesus=20
preached. Jesus preached love-not-war. The 700 Club, the =
immoral-majority in=20
control of American politics, preaches war-not-love, guns-not-roses, and =

thinly-disguised racial hatred. </DIV>
<DIV><BR>According to Nietzsche, the reason behind this unholy situation =
with=20
organized religion, and the historical events leading up to the =
destruction of=20
the real Christian conscience, was initiated by the arrogant apostle, =
Paul. It=20
was Paul who caused the perversion of Jesus' teachings into a =
remedy-punishment=20
doctrine, who endorsed slavery and male superiority - problems amplified =
by=20
Catholic Church which took up Diana-worship in the form of the Madonna, =
in=20
order&nbsp;to compensate for Paul's obvious misogyny. All of this has =
become so=20
layered and perverse - a man-made invention with the unintended side =
effect of=20
enforced mediocrity in the guise of humanism - that there is no future =
for it=20
(in FN's view). The only solution is to dump the old version - thus "God =
is=20
dead" is misinterpreted and is not a call for lack of spiritual=20
commitment.<BR><BR>Zarathustra was the prototype for Nietzsche's overman =
- but=20
what were the goals of that effort - then and now?&nbsp; The notions of=20
"creative evolution" espoused by Henri Bergson&nbsp;are another =
impediment to=20
understanding because of the Nazi backlash.&nbsp;If we want to breed a =
superior=20
guard dog, say the Doberman [to keep things Aryan]... then to accomplish =
this -=20
for many generations, one must cull-out and (if economics is an issue) =
put-down=20
the lesser animals and save only the best - in order to force the breed =
towards=20
the goal. Even if the "goal" is "cuteness" i.e. the lapdog, rather than =
prowess=20
as a feared and obedient guard, the same "suffering" must be inured by =
the=20
lesser of the species. We accept this with other animals but balk at =
anything=20
reeking of Aryanism. Is there a middle ground or is this situation too =
polarized=20
for any accommodation?<BR><BR>Adding the semantically charged judgment =
"good"=20
does not help in the ultimate evaluation. Either you want a superior =
breed=20
(hybrid) or you don't. 'Good' and 'bad' are trite apologies for lack of =
will,=20
according to Nietzsche.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>On that point he is decidedly correct.<BR><BR>Jones </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV><BR>At night, when all the world=92s asleep,<BR>The questions run =
so=20
  deep<BR>For such a simple man.<BR>Won=92t you please... please tell me =
what we=20
  have learned<BR>I know it sounds absurd<BR>But please tell me who I=20
  am.<BR><BR>When I was young, it seemed that life was so =
wonderful,<BR>A=20
  miracle, oh it was beautiful, magical.<BR>And all the birds in the =
trees, well=20
  they=92d be singing so happily,<BR>Joyfully, playfully watching =
me.<BR>But then=20
  they send me away to teach me how to be sensible,<BR>Logical, =
responsible,=20
  practical.<BR>And they showed me a world where I could be so=20
  dependable,<BR>Clinical, intellectual, cynical.<BR><BR>There are times =
when=20
  all the world=92s asleep,<BR>The questions run too deep<BR>For such a =
simple=20
  man.<BR>Won=92t you please, tell me what we=92ve learned<BR>I know it =
sounds=20
  absurd<BR>But please tell me who I am.<BR><BR>Now watch what you say =
or=20
  they=92ll be calling you a radical,<BR>Liberal, fanatical, =
criminal.<BR>Won=92t=20
  you sign up your name, we=92d like to feel you=92re<BR>Acceptable, =
respectable,=20
  presentable, a vegetable!<BR>I know it sounds absurd<BR>But please =
tell me who=20
  I am.<BR>---with apologies to Superwench, err....=20
  <BR><BR><BR>&nbsp;</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_008D_01C5B382.76BBB2A0--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  7 08:12:19 2005
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Jed Rothwell wrote:

> I mentioned the other day that a tremendous typhoon was approaching 
> Japan. It struck the southwest islands about 12 hours ago, and it is 
> just passing out to sea again. It may hit Hokkaido later. It covers 
> one of the largest areas on record, and in some areas it produced 1300 
> mm of rain in a 24-hour period, the most ever recorded in Japan. 
> Actually, that was somewhat fortunate, because the area hit hardest, 
> Kyushu, has been suffering from an extended drought. One dam shown on 
> the TV news was officially registering 0% full yesterday, and it is 
> now 100% full.
>
> Casualties are light so far, with 6 dead and 13 missing, and the storm 
> does not seem intense. Peak winds were 25 to 35 m/sec (80 mph) which 
> is not too bad, and atmospheric pressure 970 hPa. The storm surge at 
> high tide was remarkably high in some places; I think the news said 3 
> meters. I believe this would be a category 1 or 2 hurricane on the 
> Saffir-Simpson scale. See:
>
> http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/aboutsshs.shtml
>
> Japanese weather has become quite extreme in the last five years or 
> so, with severe droughts followed by unprecedented typhoons and large 
> amounts of rain and flooding. The monsoon season, which is usually 
> quite regular and predictable, appears to be disrupted. Of course this 
> might be purely a coincidence, or part of some long-term natural 
> cycle, but it seems that most experts in Japan think it is caused by 
> global warming. That is what the Meteorological Agency says.
>
> - Jed
>
>
At least the Japanese know how tho build for disaster. Some of the 
oldest storm proof and earthquake proof building designs are Japanese 
works of art. Some of the Ideas that make them work even carry over into 
the 21st century with a half sensible set of skyscraper designs.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  7 08:14:58 2005
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: YK2, gurus, economics
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R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk wrote:

>Economic growth means Power, Water and Sewerage, Hospitals and Medicine,
>Schools and Universities to provide a steady stream of professionals.

Exactly right. It does. However economic power alone does not ensure health 
care or education. The U.S., for example, is the richest nation on earth, 
yet our overall health care is well below levels in China and Cuba, and our 
average educational attainments are dead last in every category. A few 
statistics:

U.S. infant mortality rank: 43, according to the CIA world factbook. Infant 
mortality in Beijing is 4.6 per thousand; in Washington, DC it is 11.5.

29% of U.S. children were not covered by health insurance at some point 
during the last year. (In other developed countries in Europe and Japan 
this number is 0%.)

Measles immunization rate, the U.S. rank is number 84, well behind China 
and most other developing countries. Polio immunization rank: 89.

The statistics for dental care are a special horror story. A large number 
of children in the U.S. have never been to a dentist, and many people lose 
all of their teeth by age 30, which would be unthinkable in any other 
developed country.


>That's what makes me angry about the left. Why does Africa have to be any
>different?

Because people there do not have access to capital, democracy and the rule 
of law. Micro-capital programs in Third World countries have done wonders 
to improve the economy.


>  Ultimately *it will have to* become an economic power and fend
>for itself.
>
>On a micro-economic level what has the welfare cheque down for
>Afro-Americans (and elsewhere?) - it lead to dependency.

I have never understood this hypothesis. It seems completely 
counterintuitive and in opposition to all the evidence of daily life. 
Consider the largest class of people who have been "on welfare" for 
generations: the very rich. The Rockefellers, Roosevelts, Bushs, the 
European aristocracy, the Churchills, or -- to be honest -- 6-generation 
upper-middle-class college-educated people such as my own family. All of us 
as children have had every need taken care of: health care, tuition, 
special schooling if we could not hack public schools, special 
consideration getting into the finest schools (this is the policy at most 
Ivy League universities; children of alumni get special consideration), 
college and postgraduate training, a helping hand getting that first job, 
the finest drug treatment or mental health care when needed. Wealthy and 
middle class people have nothing to worry about. Life hands us everything 
we need on a silver spoon. Yet most are ambitious and hard working. If 
giving people money with no obligation and removing obstacles causes them 
to be lazy, then why on earth are people like William Clay Ford driven 
12-hour workaholics?!? Thomas Jefferson was a irresponsible spendthrift who 
died broke, and he exploited his slaves unmercifully, but no one can accuse 
him of laziness, or lack of ambition.

This hypothesis appear to be that giving rich people money and opportunity 
encourages them, while giving poor people money and opportunity discourages 
them. That makes zero sense.

In point of fact, rigid meritocracy appears to be the best way to ensure 
overall wealth. This is the system in countries such as Ireland, Sweden, 
Iceland and until recently Japan. Public schools are superior in Japan all 
of them are funded at exactly the same level with exactly the same 
curriculum. Anonymous multiple-choice college entrance exams are the sole 
criterion for access to the best higher education and capital. For the past 
20 years or so the system is broken down in Japan, and the gap between 
wealth and poverty is growing rapidly.


>Why is it that any other immigrant community that comes into a country 
>rapidly with 2 generations becomes economically sufficient?

Mainly because immigrant parents sacrifice everything for their children, 
giving them all advantages on a silver spoon, as I said.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  7 08:22:06 2005
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Jed Rothwell wrote:

> I wrote:
>
>> It covers one of the largest areas on record, and in some areas it 
>> produced 1300 mm of rain in a 24-hour period, the most ever recorded 
>> in Japan.
>
>
> Correction: That was 1300 mm in a 72 hour period, from the time the 
> rain began until the typhoon passed. This was recorded in Kyushu. It 
> is equivalent to six months of ordinary rainfall there.
>
> Damage seems remarkably light considering the amount of rain that fell.
>
> - Jed
>
>
It might be a little to early for damage to get reported. In some places 
It would have to soak in before it can erode drought hardened soil. Also 
mud slides are often not immediate events; they take a while to break 
what ever is holding the soil in place, generally roots, and start 
moving we might not see the results for a few more hours. If the rain is 
very heavy it can saturate the surface and block more water going into 
the deeper subsurface. Hopefully they just put their storm drains in the 
right places.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  7 08:35:05 2005
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Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Frederick Sparber wrote:
>
>> > This is sickening. "'State of Fear' is a valuable education in the 
>> guise of entertainment. Do yourself a favor and buy it."
>>
>> > God help us!
>>
>> That is a prayer,isn't it?
>
>
> It is a mere figure of speech, as Stalin probably told Churchill. (I 
> think it was Churchill. After one of the big three conferences during 
> World War II Churchill said "we must meet again" and Stalin replied, 
> "God willing!")
>
> - Jed
>
>
If the black box records a catholic pilot during a plane crash saying 
"Oh God, oh God, oh God" he's deemed a sad hero.
If a Muslim pilot is recorded saying the same thing he's deemed a 
suicidal terrorist. I don't think its fair.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  7 08:37:11 2005
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From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: RE: YK2, gurus, economics
Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 16:36:11 +0100 
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Yes to the below.
USA is a strange society still coming to grips with the legacy of conquest,
guns, slavery, class and race. I guess Brazil has a similar problem.

I guess there are no uber-humans after all, nor God chosen ones too :)

-----Original Message-----
From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On
Behalf Of Jed Rothwell
Sent: 07 September 2005 16:14
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: RE: YK2, gurus, economics

R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk wrote:

>Economic growth means Power, Water and Sewerage, Hospitals and Medicine,
>Schools and Universities to provide a steady stream of professionals.

Exactly right. It does. However economic power alone does not ensure health 
care or education. The U.S., for example, is the richest nation on earth, 
yet our overall health care is well below levels in China and Cuba, and our 
average educational attainments are dead last in every category. A few 
statistics:

U.S. infant mortality rank: 43, according to the CIA world factbook. Infant 
mortality in Beijing is 4.6 per thousand; in Washington, DC it is 11.5.

29% of U.S. children were not covered by health insurance at some point 
during the last year. (In other developed countries in Europe and Japan 
this number is 0%.)

Measles immunization rate, the U.S. rank is number 84, well behind China 
and most other developing countries. Polio immunization rank: 89.

The statistics for dental care are a special horror story. A large number 
of children in the U.S. have never been to a dentist, and many people lose 
all of their teeth by age 30, which would be unthinkable in any other 
developed country.


>That's what makes me angry about the left. Why does Africa have to be any
>different?

Because people there do not have access to capital, democracy and the rule 
of law. Micro-capital programs in Third World countries have done wonders 
to improve the economy.


>  Ultimately *it will have to* become an economic power and fend
>for itself.
>
>On a micro-economic level what has the welfare cheque down for
>Afro-Americans (and elsewhere?) - it lead to dependency.

I have never understood this hypothesis. It seems completely 
counterintuitive and in opposition to all the evidence of daily life. 
Consider the largest class of people who have been "on welfare" for 
generations: the very rich. The Rockefellers, Roosevelts, Bushs, the 
European aristocracy, the Churchills, or -- to be honest -- 6-generation 
upper-middle-class college-educated people such as my own family. All of us 
as children have had every need taken care of: health care, tuition, 
special schooling if we could not hack public schools, special 
consideration getting into the finest schools (this is the policy at most 
Ivy League universities; children of alumni get special consideration), 
college and postgraduate training, a helping hand getting that first job, 
the finest drug treatment or mental health care when needed. Wealthy and 
middle class people have nothing to worry about. Life hands us everything 
we need on a silver spoon. Yet most are ambitious and hard working. If 
giving people money with no obligation and removing obstacles causes them 
to be lazy, then why on earth are people like William Clay Ford driven 
12-hour workaholics?!? Thomas Jefferson was a irresponsible spendthrift who 
died broke, and he exploited his slaves unmercifully, but no one can accuse 
him of laziness, or lack of ambition.

This hypothesis appear to be that giving rich people money and opportunity 
encourages them, while giving poor people money and opportunity discourages 
them. That makes zero sense.

In point of fact, rigid meritocracy appears to be the best way to ensure 
overall wealth. This is the system in countries such as Ireland, Sweden, 
Iceland and until recently Japan. Public schools are superior in Japan all 
of them are funded at exactly the same level with exactly the same 
curriculum. Anonymous multiple-choice college entrance exams are the sole 
criterion for access to the best higher education and capital. For the past 
20 years or so the system is broken down in Japan, and the gap between 
wealth and poverty is growing rapidly.


>Why is it that any other immigrant community that comes into a country 
>rapidly with 2 generations becomes economically sufficient?

Mainly because immigrant parents sacrifice everything for their children, 
giving them all advantages on a silver spoon, as I said.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  7 08:43:44 2005
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Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 11:42:18 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Typhoon 14 hits Japan
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Wesley Bruce wrote:

>>Damage seems remarkably light considering the amount of rain that fell.
>>
>It might be a little to early for damage to get reported.

That seems unlikely in Japan. It is a small country with excellent 
communications and roads. I saw the seven o'clock evening news a few hours 
ago (at 8:00 a.m. Atlanta time). They had a map of Kyushu and lower Honshu 
showing the location of every casualty, flood and mudslide, and 30 minutes 
of live reporting showing rescue operations with Army helicopters and so 
on. Mostly people standing around or digging through mud. Then they 
interview beleaguered, middle-aged, muddy housewives who speak in thick 
rural accents and who always say: "well, things could be worse," like 
characters from Lake Woebegon.


>In some places It would have to soak in before it can erode drought 
>hardened soil.

That is true. For that reason, they are still enforcing mandatory 
evacuations in many places. The news is full of pictures of families 
evacuated to high school gymnasiums, crammed together and sleeping on the 
wooden floors, with their house pets, babies, and photo albums. This 
happens every year at this time. You'd think they would provide air mattresses.

Last year the news showed a dramatic video of a huge landslide a few days 
after a typhoon. They knew it was likely, so they set up cameras and posted 
police to keep people away. The whole side of the hill -- including a long 
stretch of highway and several hundred trees -- gradually slid down and out 
of the picture. It was surreal.


Japanese TV had intense coverage of hurricane Katrina, as you might expect. 
It was not very hard hitting. BBC coverage was ruthless, with a distinctly 
anti-American tone at times. (You have to grant, it wasn't our finest hour.)

- Jed


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Wesley Bruce wrote:

>If the black box records a catholic pilot during a plane crash saying "Oh 
>God, oh God, oh God" he's deemed a sad hero.

I believe black box vox recordings show that the last words of most pilots 
are: "Oh shit! This damn machine!" Seriously, most pilots are consummate 
professionals, and right up to the last second they are working to fix the 
technical problem or control the crash. I know two pilots (including a guy 
downstairs from my office) who have been in several crashes, mainly with 
crop dusting light aircraft and military aircraft. They both say they had 
no time to be frightened until it was over. They also say, "it is a good 
landing if you can walk away from it."

- Jed


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Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 12:45:06 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Global Warming - State of Fear
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Craig Haynie wrote:

>The problem, (if there is a problem, and I'm not sure there is), occurs 
>when carbon, which has been stored deep within the earth for eons, is now 
>pulled from the ground and emitted into the environment, causing an 
>increase in carbon dioxide in the atmosphere.

Correct.


>And, the only way to stop it, is to stop pulling carbon from the ground. 
>It doesn't help to slow down the process, or reduce greenhouse gas 
>emissions from cars.

Whoa there. That does not follow. If you slow down the process by reducing 
emissions now, you buy time. You keep the problem from rapidly growing 
worse. Presumably in the next 20 or 30 years we will develop something like 
large-scale wind energy, cold fusion or hot fusion to fix the problem.


>As long as carbon is pulled from places where it has not been a part of 
>the environment, into the environment, there will be a gradual increase in 
>CO2 in the atmosphere.

True, but the less you pull from underground, the better.

By the same token, the only way to reverse the problem is to put the carbon 
back underground. Growing trees alone will not fix the problem. To be 
exact, it will work for a while and then stall. Reforestation of barren 
land will sequester carbon for about 30 years while the forest is growing. 
After that, if you leave the forest as is, old trees will die off and new 
trees will grow, but the total amount of sequestered carbon will not 
change. The only way to decrease atmospheric carbon by biological methods 
is to bury the old dead trees deep underground. See my book, "Cold Fusion 
in the Future," chapter 9.

Of course if you let the forests grow unattended for hundreds of millions 
of years, eventually many dead trees will be buried naturally, forming new 
coal mines. But I think it would be better to accelerate the process and 
take steps to reverse all CO2 emissions within 200 or 300 years. If serious 
global warming sets in before that, it should be fixed with some drastic 
intervention, such as spreading gigantic Mylar sunshades over large 
sections of the earth. I do not favor of letting nature take its course!

- Jed


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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Global Warming - State of Fear
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I wrote:

>>And, the only way to stop it, is to stop pulling carbon from the ground. 
>>It doesn't help to slow down the process, or reduce greenhouse gas 
>>emissions from cars.
>
>Whoa there. That does not follow. If you slow down the process by reducing 
>emissions now, you buy time.

I should say, "If you slow down the rate of increase . . ." As Craig said, 
you cannot actually reverse the process by slowing or stopping emissions. 
You only prevent acceleration.

Of course if some natural process such as the melting of Siberia kicks in 
and begins adding CO2 at rates far higher than human activity, then our 
goose is cooked. Even massive space-based Mylar sun shields may not be enough.

Continental scale reforestation projects would reduce CO2 for about 30 
years, as I said. Such projects would be immensely beneficial in other 
ways, so we should do them even if it turns out global warming is not 
caused by CO2. After large areas of the planet are reforested we will have 
to turn to other methods if we want to continue removing CO2.

All in all, cleaning up the mess made by the 20th century will probably 
occupy us for several generations.

- Jed


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Another addendum. I wrote:

>The only way to decrease atmospheric carbon by biological methods is to 
>bury the old dead trees deep underground.

That should be: "land based biological methods." People have suggested 
interesting methods of increasing biological activity in the ocean. This 
would sequester carbon at the bottom of the ocean as the new plant life 
dies and falls to the bottom. An increase in ocean plant life may be 
happening naturally, to some extent.

Russ George has been working on a method of doing this.

Looking beyond biological methods, with cold fusion we can use industrial 
techniques to capture and sequester carbon. See chapter 9, as I said.

- Jed


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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  7 10:50:29 2005
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Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 13:48:39 -0400
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My apologies to our Republican friends reading this forum, but I cannot 
resist posting two quotes here.

FEMA director Mike Brown was employed from 1991 to 2000 as the chief rules 
enforcer for the Arabian Horse Association. On Thursday he expressed 
surprise and consternation when told by a reporter that 15,000 people were 
stranded at the New Orleans convention center. Kate Hale, the former 
Miami-Dade emergency management director, said of Mr. Brown: "He's done a 
hell of a job, because I'm not aware of any Arabian horses being killed in 
this storm."

Yesterday the Daily Show yesterday played a comment made by the Presdent's 
mother, Barbara Bush, during a radio broadcast. She described the people in 
the Texas Astrodome: ". . . and so many of the people in the arenas here, 
you know, are underprivileged anyway. This is working out well for them."

(Okay, she did not mean to be snide. This resembles Herbert Hoover's naive 
remark that during the Depression many people left their jobs for lucrative 
opportunities to sell apples in the street.)

- Jed 


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Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 14:01:30 -0500
From: Harry Veeder <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: OT: =?ISO-8859-1?B?3A==?=bermensch, Buddha and Superwench
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> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

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I might be wrong, but what I have read about Nietzsche and by Nietzsche, it
is my impression
he did not appreciate the need to mourn.
Whether or not THE God is dead or only certain conception of God has been
lost,
a significance loss of any kind requires a period grieving.

Harry


Jones Beene wrote:

In order to partially dissent and elaborate on a previous comment yesterday
about the "brilliant but controversial German philosopher Friedrich
Nietzsche".... JR echoed a commonly-heard PC (politically correct) reaction=
:
"Brilliant? In my opinion he was world-class jerk, and I despise the notion
"that suffering is good for people."

Ah...despise him if you must, but understand him first - isn't =DCbermensch
(as FN envisioned it, not as the Nazi's distorted it) really the
one-and-only 'final solution' to suffering... or would you have them (the
little people) swell the blood-sucking "Idle-Rich-Class" and become the
downfall of us all ? <big G>

...and just to be clear about how to best express quasi-cynicism in a
vo-post, <big G> means an extra-large smiley - IOW "not to be taken at face
value".

Nietzsche was notoriously unread, even during his own lifetime, except by
the other brilliant thinkers of the time. A list of his admirers reads like
a who's-who of  20th century acumen. However, FN's ideas (in the
geo-politics of the era ) suffered irreparable distortion in the hands of
his own sister - who for her own purposes twisted his philosophy into full
support for Nazism (Hitler had "Thus Spoke Zarathustra" issued to every
soldier in the German army for a while). What a perversion! But not for the
reasons you might surmise. =DCbermensch literally means "overman" but which i=
s
an  earned (possibly engineered) achievement, not a prerogative of wealth o=
r
heritage [not to be confused with the man of steel, nor racial (Aryan)
superiority].=20

<snip> 

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<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Re: OT: =DCbermensch, Buddha and Superwench</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
I might be wrong, but what I have read about Nietzsche and by Nietzsche, it=
 is my impression<BR>
he did not appreciate the need to mourn.<BR>
Whether or not THE God is dead or only certain conception of God has been l=
ost,<BR>
a significance loss of any kind requires a period grieving.<BR>
 <BR>
Harry<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Jones Beene wrote:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">In order to partially dissent=
 and elaborate on a previous comment yesterday about the &quot;brilliant but=
 controversial German philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche&quot;.... JR echoed a =
commonly-heard PC (politically correct) reaction: &quot;Brilliant? In my opi=
nion he was world-class jerk, and I despise the notion &quot;that suffering =
is good for people.&quot;<BR>
<BR>
Ah...despise him if you must, but understand him first - isn't =DCbermensch (=
as FN envisioned it, not as the Nazi's distorted it) really the one-and-only=
 'final solution' to suffering... or would you have them (the little people)=
 swell the blood-sucking &quot;Idle-Rich-Class&quot; and become the downfall=
 of us all ? &lt;big G&gt; <BR>
<BR>
...and just to be clear about how to best express quasi-cynicism in a vo-po=
st, &lt;big G&gt; means an extra-large smiley - IOW &quot;not to be taken at=
 face value&quot;.<BR>
<BR>
Nietzsche was notoriously unread, even during his own lifetime, except by t=
he other brilliant thinkers of the time. A list of his admirers reads like a=
 who's-who of &nbsp;20th century acumen. However, FN's ideas (in the geo-pol=
itics of the era ) suffered irreparable distortion in the hands of his own s=
ister - who for her own purposes twisted his philosophy into full support fo=
r Nazism (Hitler had &quot;Thus Spoke Zarathustra&quot; issued to every sold=
ier in the German army for a while). What a perversion! But not for the reas=
ons you might surmise. =DCbermensch literally means &quot;overman&quot; but wh=
ich is an &nbsp;earned (possibly engineered) achievement, not a prerogative =
of wealth or heritage [not to be confused with the man of steel, nor racial =
(Aryan) superiority]. <BR>
<BR>
</FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">&lt;snip&gt;</=
FONT></FONT>
</BODY>
</HTML>


--Boundary_(ID_GHWNIykevfGnLrLfO2E63Q)--

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From: Mathias Bage <mathias Stacken.kth.se>
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On Wed, 7 Sep 2005, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk wrote:
>
>> Economic growth means Power, Water and Sewerage, Hospitals and Medicine,
>> Schools and Universities to provide a steady stream of professionals.
>
> Exactly right. It does. However economic power alone does not ensure health 
> care or education. The U.S., for example, is the richest nation on earth, yet 
> our overall health care is well below levels in China and Cuba, and our 
> average educational attainments are dead last in every category. A few 
> statistics:
>
> U.S. infant mortality rank: 43, according to the CIA world factbook. Infant 
> mortality in Beijing is 4.6 per thousand; in Washington, DC it is 11.5.
>
> 29% of U.S. children were not covered by health insurance at some point 
> during the last year. (In other developed countries in Europe and Japan this 
> number is 0%.)
>
> Measles immunization rate, the U.S. rank is number 84, well behind China and 
> most other developing countries. Polio immunization rank: 89.
>
> The statistics for dental care are a special horror story. A large number of 
> children in the U.S. have never been to a dentist, and many people lose all 
> of their teeth by age 30, which would be unthinkable in any other developed 
> country.
>

Remy, is dental care still free in the U.K?  A friend of mine studied in 
London in 1985, and he went to the dentist there for free.  Amazing.
Better than here in Sweden.

>
>> That's what makes me angry about the left. Why does Africa have to be any
>> different?
>
>[snip]
>
> In point of fact, rigid meritocracy appears to be the best way to ensure 
> overall wealth. This is the system in countries such as Ireland, Sweden,


Here, one minister (male) have a father that held the same post years ago. 
The same applies to the mother of a former minister (female).  Reeks of 
nepotism, in my opinion.


> Iceland and until recently Japan. Public schools are superior in Japan all of 
> them are funded at exactly the same level with exactly the same curriculum. 
> Anonymous multiple-choice college entrance exams are the sole criterion for 
> access to the best higher education and capital. For the past 20 years or so 
> the system is broken down in Japan, and the gap between wealth and poverty is 
> growing rapidly.
>
>
>> Why is it that any other immigrant community that comes into a country 
>> rapidly with 2 generations becomes economically sufficient?
>
> Mainly because immigrant parents sacrifice everything for their children, 
> giving them all advantages on a silver spoon, as I said.
>
> - Jed
>
>

/Mathias

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  7 12:00:17 2005
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From: "Vince Cockeram" <vcockeram cox.net>
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Subject: Re: Jed's Conversion?
Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 11:59:15 -0700
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Wesley Bruce" <wesleybruce iinet.net.au>
> If the black box records a catholic pilot during a plane crash saying 
> "Oh God, oh God, oh God" he's deemed a sad hero.
> If a Muslim pilot is recorded saying the same thing he's deemed a 
> suicidal terrorist. I don't think its fair.

It is perfectly fair Wesley. 
The Catholic pilot didn't shut the engines down.

Ref: NTSB Final Report      http://www.ntsb.gov/Publictn/2002/aab0201.htm

Vince Cockeram

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Subject: New paper by Fauvarque et al.
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See:

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/FauvarqueJabnormalex.pdf

Fauvarque, J., P. Clauzon, and G. Lalleve, Abnormal excess heat observed=20
during Mizuno-type experiments. 2005, Laboratoire d'Electrochimie=20
Industrielle, Conservatoire National des Arts et M=E9tiers: Paris.

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<body>
See:<br><br>
<a href=3D"http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/FauvarqueJabnormalex.pdf" eudora=3D"=
autourl">
http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/FauvarqueJabnormalex.pdf<br><br>
</a>Fauvarque, J., P. Clauzon, and G. Lalleve, <i>Abnormal excess heat
observed during Mizuno-type experiments</i>. 2005, Laboratoire
d'Electrochimie Industrielle, Conservatoire National des Arts et M=E9tiers:
Paris. <br>
</body>
</html>

--=====================_17935187==.ALT--


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Subject: Re: Global Warming - State of Fear
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Craig Haynie" <public craighaynie.com>
Subject: Re: Global Warming - State of Fear


> > Cow farts.... the 3rd largest source of methane release on the planet.
> > http://www.epa.gov/methane/sources.html
> >
> > Cow-talitic converters?
>
> But everyone here realizes, (right?), that biological emissions of such
> gasses do not contribute to global warming, because the carbon emitted
from
> a biologic, into the environment, was carbon which was recently pulled by
> the biologic, from the environment. In other words, there is no net
increase
> in greenhouse gasses due to biological life. The problem, (if there is a
> problem, and I'm not sure there is), occurs when carbon, which has been
> stored deep within the earth for eons, is now pulled from the ground and
> emitted into the environment, causing an increase in carbon dioxide in the
> atmosphere. This would be the only cause of additional greehnouse gasses
in
> the atmosphere -- not biological life.
>
> And, the only way to stop it, is to stop pulling carbon from the ground.
It
> doesn't help to slow down the process, or reduce greenhouse gas emissions
> from cars. As long as carbon is pulled from places where it has not been a
> part of the environment, into the environment, there will be a gradual
> increase in CO2 in the atmosphere.
--------------------------------------------------
A recent cover story in Scientific American presented a very convincing case
for human activity contributing to global warming, and it has been going on
for thousands of years.

The case is based on evaluation of the contents of gas bubbles trapped in
ice cores extending back very very long periods. The CO2 and CH4 content
cyclically vary with a cycle generated by the earth's orbit about the sun
and the earth's precession about its axis. The cycles produce global warming
and cooling. Projecting the cycles to the present day would indicate that
the earth should have been cooling for the last several thousand years, but
it has not. The trend leveled off with the rise of human agriculture and
production of methane, and clearing forests, which reduce CO2 capture. The
rate of warming has ramped up acutely with the industrial age.

This is one of the most persuasive cases for human activity inefereing with
the global weather cycles that I have seen.

Mike Carrell



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From: OrionWorks <orionworks charter.net>
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To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Subject: Re: Global Warming - State of Fear
Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 16:24:36 -0500
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> From: "Mike Carrell" 

...

> A recent cover story in Scientific American presented a
> very convincing case for human activity contributing to
> global warming, and it has been going on for thousands
> of years.
> 
> The case is based on evaluation of the contents of gas
> bubbles trapped in ice cores extending back very very
> long periods. The CO2 and CH4 content cyclically vary 
> with a cycle generated by the earth's orbit about the sun
> and the earth's precession about its axis. The cycles 
> produce global warming and cooling. Projecting the cycles
> to the present day would indicate that the earth should
> have been cooling for the last several thousand years, but
> it has not. The trend leveled off with the rise of human
> agriculture and production of methane, and clearing
> forests, which reduce CO2 capture. The
> rate of warming has ramped up acutely with the industrial
> age.
> 
> This is one of the most persuasive cases for human
> activity inefereing with the global weather cycles that
> I have seen.
> 
> Mike Carrell



I read portions of the article as well.

It brings to mind the ironic possibility that should our civilization be successful in transitioning to new forms of AE we may STILL need to carefully regulate, or possibly even deliberately generate copious amounts of additional CO2 and/or CH4 into the atmosphere least we plunge the planet back into the next ice age.

Wouldn't it be ironic if, next to our reclaimed pristine green forests and advanced CF/ZPE powered civilizations, there rise a few conspicuous smokestacks belching pure CO2 back into the atmosphere.

Perhaps huge bonfires may become mandatory celebrations - a remembrance of the "good old days". ;-)

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

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Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 18:40:17 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: YK2, gurus, economics
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I hope that readers here do not mind this off-topic conversation. It is a 
fascinating aspect of social science that has interested me for many years.

To continue, I wrote:

>Wealthy and middle class people have nothing to worry about. Life hands us 
>everything we need on a silver spoon. Yet most are ambitious and hard 
>working. If giving people money with no obligation and removing obstacles 
>causes them to be lazy, then why on earth are people like William Clay 
>Ford driven 12-hour workaholics?!?

Today's New York Times has a particularly vivid illustration of what I have 
in mind here. See: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/07/opinion/07sittenfeld.html

QUOTES:

"The self-containment of [wealthy] boarding schools can create terrariums 
of privilege in which students develop a skewed sense of money and have a 
hard time remembering that, in fact, it is not normal to go skiing in 
Switzerland just because it's March, or to receive an S.U.V. in celebration 
of one's 16th birthday. At, for example, Choate Rosemary Hall - one of many 
boarding schools starting classes this or next week - room, board and 
tuition for 2005-2006 is $35,360. . . Even when these schools hold chapel 
services espousing humility and service to others, it's the campus 
facilities - the gleaming multimillion-dollar gymnasium, say - that can 
send a louder message.

It's hard not to wonder: in a world of horrifying inequities, at what point 
do these lavishly maintained campuses go from enriching and bucolic to just 
obscene? Can a student living on such a campus be blamed if, logically 
working backward, she starts to think her access to such bounty must exist 
because she deserves it?"

It is hard to imagine a lifestyle and a set of attitudes that would make 
people feel more entitled to whatever they want. Compared to this, welfare 
payments could hardly have an effect. For one thing, the amount of money is 
$4,572 per year per family on average. $381 per week does not tell the 
recipient: "take life easy; don't bother working; you have nothing to worry 
about." On the contrary, the message is that life is tightrope and you are 
one disaster -- or one toothache -- away from losing whatever job you have 
and living on the street. But the other big difference is that message that 
comes attached to the check. The wealthy child learns there is plenty more 
where that came from; he deserves all that life has to offer; it is his 
birthright to take the money, take command, take the best job around, and 
run society. The money is a positive incentive. He learns that money is 
happiness, and the more you have, the happier you become. Wealth breeds 
both a sense of entitlement AND AT THE SAME TIME a work ethic. There is 
nothing contradictory about that.

My point is that if we could somehow arrange welfare payments to carry the 
same message that the rich child's allowance carries, they would not hurt 
anyone's work ethic or motivation. I know this sound ridiculous, but if you 
can imagine a situation in which we could afford to give everyone $100,000 
a year just as an allowance -- a birthright, if you will, so that everyone 
on welfare could afford an upper-middle-class lifestyle, I think this would 
completely remove all the deleterious effects of the welfare system. Nearly 
everyone, everywhere would eventually learn to proceed to live normal 
lives. They would compete to get into college, compete for jobs, go to the 
dentist whenever they needed it, and so on. I think it is not free money 
from welfare that hurts people's morale and destroys or motivation; it is 
the social stigma, and the low amount of money. It is just barely enough 
money to sustain a person in a cramped, miserable, hopeless life so that 
affords no means of education or self-improvement.

Of course this is impossible today. If we printed bales of money and 
distributed $100,000 to everyone, inflation would soon make it worth only a 
few thousand dollars. There are not enough resources to go around, 
especially because the elite  top 1% of population nowadays demands 
ownership of 40% of all wealth. * But I believe in the distant future, 
industry and agriculture become completely automated, and the necessities 
of life will literally become as cheap as air and water. If we build the 
right kind of technology and we arrange our laws, taxes education and other 
institutions wisely, I believe that in 100 or 200 years we will be able to 
give everyone what would today be considered a middle-class lifestyle, and 
we will demand -- and need -- nothing in return. There are more than enough 
people in this world who are willing to do the serious hard work of 
civilization and bear the burden whether you pay them or not. How do I 
know? Look at any research institution, in a university or government 
laboratory. Look at Stan Szpak or Richard Oriani. They retired years ago. 
They are paid nothing. But they come to work every day and contribute more 
to society than 100 other ordinary people combined.

As I wrote in the last chapter of the book:

"In the future, I hope that dire poverty will be eliminated everywhere on 
earth. People should have as much food and water, health care, higher 
education and Internet access as they want. These things should be free, 
like street lighting, public libraries and public elementary education are 
today. This does not mean I hope everyone will be able to live the way 
wealthy people do today, or I hope that great wealth will be abolished. I 
want everyone to achieve an American or European middle-class standard of 
living. . . ."

That is not utopian. It is not an unreachable goal. It is emphatically NOT 
socialism, or communism. The means of production will be privately owned -- 
but they will be worth a pittance by today's standards. This has been the 
trend of history for the last 300 years. The cost of useful energy, in the 
form of electricity, has probably fallen by a factor of a thousand or more 
since the beginning of the industrial revolution. Or take a pound of flour, 
which is the most essential Western food and a historical benchmark. In the 
late 18th century, at work camps and construction sites one adult man's 
rations consisted of a pound of flour and a pound of salt pork. It used to 
take the average person hours of labor to acquire this. Now we can buy one 
pound of flour retail for $0.89, or 10 minutes of labor at the minimum 
wage. (Note that it costs the mill about $0.12 to produce the flour.) Pork 
is about $3 per pound retail. In other words, if we were satisfied with the 
typical diet of 200 years ago, we could earn our daily bread doing no more 
than 50 minutes of labor per day. If we were also satisfied with the small 
houses of 200 years ago, outdoor privies, healthcare (essentially 
nonexistent), transportation (walking), a person earning an average salary 
today could pay for food, rent and most other necessities working about an 
hour a day, 5 days a week. [2] In other words, we have already driven down 
our cost of living to practically nothing, but of course we have raised our 
expectations. (I am not suggesting there is anything wrong with higher 
expectations, for that we should live like people in 1960s communes!)

In the far distant future, everyone will own their own electric generator, 
automobile and universal replicator that makes any food, gadget or other 
good the owner desires. I am suggesting that eventually technology will 
render the definitions of socialism and capitalism equally meaningless. 
Communism collapsed in 1989, and capitalism will probably not last much 
longer, as Arthur C. Clarke remarked. Economics is mainly the study of how 
people trade their labor for goods. When no one needs to do any labor, and 
goods are manufactured virtually for free and unlimited quantities, 
economics will become meaningless. Of course we will still have to reward 
people who do essential work and hard work, with professorships, 
decision-making power, large houses, extra salary and so on, but money will 
be the least important reward on the list.

I think that after we have achieved this state in the future, people will 
wonder what took us so long, or why anyone ever considered this 
controversial or impossible. When people first proposed that all children 
should be allowed to go to public schools, or that all children be 
inoculated against infectious disease, this was considered ridiculous and 
utopian. A few weeks after my great-grandmother emigrated from Hungary, she 
was stunned and incredulous to learn that all children were not only 
*allowed* to go to school in New York city, with no fees, bribes or 
entrance exams, they were *expected* to go. And she was an educated woman, 
who spoke three languages. Nowadays we take these things for granted, and 
no one considers them socialistic, or thinks they are bad for moral, or bad 
for your soul.

Out of all technologies, cold fusion will be the most essential to 
achieving these goals.

- Jed


1. Source: http://www.endgame.org/primer-wealth.html. There is no limit to 
this trend. The elite would take 99% of all wealth, if it could.

2. Medium household income is $42,228, or $844 per week. In this estimate, 
food costs $4 per day, and other necessities roughly $6, or $70 per 
week.  http://www.census.gov/prod/2002pubs/p60-218.pdf


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In a somewhat light-hearted look the topological number-structure known =
as the "perfect cube", and in trying to tie this structure into Douglas =
Adam's Sci-Fi madness yesterday, the further thought occurred - what if =
the Universe is indeed 5-spatial?=20

Does the perfect cube tell us anything, even as symbolism? After all, =
this IS the smallest possible of such "perfect" numbered-structure. Very =
Platonic. The universe may, in actuality, have less or more dimensions, =
but IF in fact - it is found to have exactly 5 dimensions, then there =
could be some intuitive relevance to studying this exact structure - a =
house of cards, as it were ... and some relevance even to ZPE, as you =
will see (if you can hold-out through another long post) !

BTW here is the site (but if you haven't already bookmarked it - =
indicating prior interest), then what follows is likely to be =
word-salad:
http://cboyer.club.fr/multimagie/English/Perfectcubes.htm

This perfect cube above is depicted as five planes. There are several =
way to look at this simplification as symbolic of the complexity or real =
5-space, however. But in this post, I only want to consider the simplest =
- which is unfortunately the most likely to lead to confusion. If each =
of the 5x5 planes (2-spatial) were instead, analogous to sets of =
5-spatial "locators" or "hotlinks" to use a WWW analogy, then the =
perfect cube becomes a more complex analogy of how to get between =
dimensions (5-D road map) as each of the planes relates to a more (or =
less) complex structure and all structures are different but =
interconnected through the numbered "pathways" i.e. "wormholes".

Note that only the very central numbered square is a stationary =
location, no matter how the perfect cube is oriented - it is the =
*singularity* the one-space.=20

Every other space is relative to this space. We could, in fact "wrap =
every one of the 125 spaces into spherical surface area - if that helps =
in the visualization - as (in the tradition of the Mills "orbitsphere" =
there is not much real mathematical difference, other than connectivity =
and getting rid of edges and vertices - which become abstractions. This =
particular perfect 5-cube (there could be others) contains all the =
integers from 1 to 5^3 =3D 125. This small finite number is a lot more =
comforting to some folks than infinity - especially if one wants to =
eventually build a mythology around having some kind of repository of =
intelligence in one dimension.=20

Plus, the center is at most 4 steps removed from any other potential =
location. This is the only built-in "limitation" of this number-theology =
in that 4 degrees of separation does require "transfer-assistance" from =
other contiguous locations, which of course someone will surely term =
"angelic" but as far as information transfer - it is QM (quantum =
mechanical).

In this universe, the number 315 (in addition to 125 and 63) is very =
important as a sum of all things, but it doesn't have to be that exact =
number, per se - all of the numbers can be ratios rather than absolute =
values. The important thing is how they are interrelated - i.e. =
"relativity" to any other location. There are  109 ways to get the magic =
sum 315, with its 25 rows, 25 columns,  25 pillars, 4 triagonals, and 30 =
diagonals.  Of course, if there would be any relevance to this exercise, =
then DNA's (DT's) "meaning of the universe and everything" would be =
more-than-fanciful, and would be related to the positive integer 63 =
rather than 42 - no probelmo - he has given me prior permission to do =
this (in a private channeling ;-). This number 63 is only contextual =
however, and would need to be regauged or recalibrated for every useful =
purpose, but in the expanded analogy this IS itself defined as 1-space =
and if you want to get theological about it, then DNA will be smiling =
down on you, half-again more.=20

Three dimensions are well known and the fourth - the "hypercube" - is a =
solid figure in 4-D space bounded by eight "imaginary" cubes, just as a =
cube is bounded by six square faces. This has been simplified to a plane =
with 25 "locators" as has the higher dimension. What happens when we add =
yet another dimension to 4-space?=20

A surprising conclusion of many hyperspace models, in general, is that =
gravitation and EM attraction can be explained simply as the result of a =
"suction" force from hyperspace - what Frank Grimer calls negative pF. =
In fact: Hyperspace is to a 3-D space - somewhat as the atmosphere is to =
a balloon or the void to air. The air of the balloon tries to escape to =
the atmosphere through any hole the balloon has, while the air tries to =
fill up any empty space (vacuum). In an analogous way, gravitation and =
EM can be seen as the extra-dimensional tendency of matter to dissipate =
in hyperspace through small windows between our 3-D universe and =
hyperspace. This can be envisioned as outward or inward. I prefer inward =
because of the gravity connotation but in EM we also have repulsion. BTW =
much of this info comes-from or builds-on. other fringe speculation via =
the WWW, but the only citation I can find now is:
http://www.journaloftheoretics.com/Articles/3-1/calvet-final.htm

Anyway, these "windows" which correspond to any of the 125 locators can =
pass information by the modality which we know as quantum spin - or by =
virtual cross-over. Hyperspace will also produce a "bulk" =
non-information suction force on elementary particles, analogous to =
their mass (gravitation) or polarity (EM). Conventional forces like =
gravitation and electromagnetism vary with the square of the planar =
distance but the space between planes is imaginary and therefore not =
limited by lightspeed. Certainly 4-space can also be correlated to the =
EPO field, and 5-space to the more expansive idea of the "negative" =
Dirac Sea which "reverses" back into 1 space.

The Casimir force, which varies with the 4th power of distance, ought to =
arise from bosons distributed in a hyperspace with 5 real physical =
dimensions - this is the BEC EPO field of Don Hotson.  This leads to the =
prediction of a whole new world of "quantum temperatures" below zero =
Kelvin, and to a model that has been said to surprisingly agree with new =
cosmology data (dark energy) and recent findings of the =
zero-point-field. "Virtual" field particles (e.g. bosons of the ZPF+ EPO =
field) are particles that cross our 3-D universe interface continually, =
thus seeming "virtual" to us. =20

Our universe, and the other 125 parallel universes can be considered as =
partially overlapping 3-D space "floating" on an immense 5-D space - the =
hyperspace, but is there a "real" limit to only 125 alternative =
universes? An interesting point - if you are working on a Sci-Fi script. =


For those of you who successfully mastered visualizing a hypercube, try =
imagining what an "ultracube" looks like. It's the five- dimensional =
analog of the cube, but this time it is bounded by one hypercube on each =
of its 10 faces. Now if you have that in mind, "stretch" the ultracube =
into an onion-like ultrasphere and you have mastered the whole =
shebang... or was that big bang?

Jones

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2722" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff background=3D"">
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>In a somewhat light-hearted =
look&nbsp;the=20
topological number-structure known&nbsp;as the "perfect cube", and in =
trying to=20
tie this structure into Douglas Adam's Sci-Fi madness yesterday, the =
further=20
thought occurred - what if the Universe is indeed 5-spatial? =
<BR><BR>Does the=20
perfect cube tell us anything, even as symbolism? After all, this IS the =

smallest possible of such "perfect" numbered-structure. Very Platonic. =
The=20
universe may, in actuality, have less or more dimensions, but IF in fact =
- it is=20
found to have exactly 5 dimensions, then there could be some intuitive =
relevance=20
to studying this exact structure - a house of cards, as it were ... and =
some=20
relevance even to ZPE, as you will see (if you can hold-out through =
another long=20
post) !<BR><BR>BTW here is the site (but if you haven't already =
bookmarked it -=20
indicating prior interest), then what follows is likely to be =
word-salad:<BR><A=20
href=3D"http://cboyer.club.fr/multimagie/English/Perfectcubes.htm">http:/=
/cboyer.club.fr/multimagie/English/Perfectcubes.htm</A></FONT></DIV><FONT=
=20
face=3DArial size=3D2>
<DIV><BR>This perfect cube above is depicted as five planes. There are =
several=20
way to look at this simplification as symbolic of the complexity or=20
real&nbsp;5-space, however. But in this post, I only want to consider =
the=20
simplest - which is unfortunately the most likely to lead to confusion. =
If each=20
of the 5x5&nbsp;planes (2-spatial) were instead, analogous to sets of =
5-spatial=20
"locators" or "hotlinks" to use a WWW analogy, then the perfect cube =
becomes a=20
more complex analogy of how to get between dimensions (5-D road map) as =
each of=20
the planes relates to a more (or less) complex structure and all =
structures are=20
different but interconnected through the numbered "pathways" i.e.=20
"wormholes".<BR><BR>Note that only the very central numbered square is a =

stationary location, no matter how the perfect cube is oriented - it is =
the=20
*singularity* the one-space. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Every other space is relative to this space. We could, in fact =
"wrap every=20
one of the 125 spaces into spherical surface area - if that helps in the =

visualization - as (in the tradition of the Mills "orbitsphere" there is =
not=20
much&nbsp;real mathematical difference, other than connectivity and =
getting rid=20
of edges and vertices - which become abstractions. This particular =
perfect=20
5-cube (there could be others) contains all the integers from 1 to 5^3 =
=3D 125.=20
This small finite number is a lot more comforting to some folks than =
infinity -=20
especially if one wants to eventually build a mythology around having =
some kind=20
of repository of intelligence in one dimension. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Plus, the center is at most 4 steps removed from any other =
potential=20
location. This is the only built-in "limitation" of this number-theology =
in that=20
4 degrees of separation does require "transfer-assistance" from other =
contiguous=20
locations, which of course someone will surely term "angelic" but as far =
as=20
information transfer - it is QM (quantum mechanical).</DIV>
<DIV><BR>In this universe, the number 315 (in addition to 125 and =
63)&nbsp;is=20
very important as a sum of all things, but it doesn't have to =
be&nbsp;that=20
exact&nbsp;number, per se - all of the numbers&nbsp;can be ratios rather =
than=20
absolute values. The important thing is how they are interrelated =
-&nbsp;i.e.=20
"relativity" to any other location. There are&nbsp; 109 ways to get the =
magic=20
sum 315, with its 25 rows, 25 columns,&nbsp; 25 pillars, 4 triagonals, =
and 30=20
diagonals.&nbsp; Of course, if there would be any relevance to this =
exercise,=20
then DNA's (DT's) "meaning of the universe and everything" would be=20
more-than-fanciful, and would be related to the positive integer 63 =
rather than=20
42 - no probelmo - he has given me prior permission to do this (in a =
private=20
channeling ;-). This number 63 is only contextual however, and would =
need to be=20
regauged or recalibrated for every useful purpose, but&nbsp;in the =
expanded=20
analogy this&nbsp;IS itself defined as 1-space and if you want to get=20
theological about it, then DNA will be smiling down on you, half-again =
more.=20
<BR><BR>Three dimensions are well known and the fourth - the "hypercube" =
- is a=20
solid figure in 4-D space bounded by eight "imaginary" cubes, just as a =
cube is=20
bounded by six square faces. This has been simplified to a plane with 25 =

"locators" as has the higher dimension. What happens when we add yet =
another=20
dimension to 4-space? <BR><BR>A surprising conclusion of many hyperspace =
models,=20
in general,&nbsp;is that gravitation and EM attraction can be explained =
simply=20
as the result of a =93suction=94 force from hyperspace - what Frank =
Grimer calls=20
negative pF. In fact: Hyperspace is to a 3-D space - somewhat&nbsp;as =
the=20
atmosphere is to a balloon or the void to air. The air of the balloon =
tries to=20
escape to the atmosphere through any hole the balloon has, while the air =
tries=20
to fill up any empty space (vacuum). In an analogous way, gravitation =
and EM can=20
be seen as the extra-dimensional tendency of matter to dissipate in =
hyperspace=20
through small windows between our 3-D universe and hyperspace. This can =
be=20
envisioned as outward or inward. I prefer inward because of the gravity=20
connotation but in EM we also have repulsion. BTW much of this info =
comes-from=20
or builds-on. other fringe speculation&nbsp;via the WWW, but the only =
citation I=20
can find now is:</DIV>
<DIV><A=20
href=3D"http://www.journaloftheoretics.com/Articles/3-1/calvet-final.htm"=
>http://www.journaloftheoretics.com/Articles/3-1/calvet-final.htm</A></DI=
V>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Anyway, these "windows" which correspond to any of the 125=20
locators&nbsp;can pass information by the modality which we know as =
quantum spin=20
- or by virtual cross-over. Hyperspace will also produce a "bulk"=20
non-information suction force on elementary particles, analogous to =
their mass=20
(gravitation) or polarity (EM). Conventional forces like gravitation and =

electromagnetism vary with the square of the planar distance but the =
space=20
between planes is imaginary and therefore not limited by=20
lightspeed.&nbsp;Certainly 4-space can also be correlated to the EPO =
field, and=20
5-space to the more expansive idea of the "negative" Dirac Sea which =
"reverses"=20
back into 1 space.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The Casimir force, which varies with the 4th power of distance, =
ought to=20
arise from bosons distributed in a hyperspace with 5 real physical =
dimensions -=20
this is the BEC EPO field of Don Hotson.&nbsp; This leads to the =
prediction of a=20
whole new world of =93quantum temperatures=94 below zero Kelvin, and to =
a model that=20
has been said to surprisingly agree with new cosmology data (dark =
energy) and=20
recent findings of the zero-point-field. =93Virtual=94 field particles =
(e.g. bosons=20
of the ZPF+ EPO field) are particles that cross our 3-D universe =
interface=20
continually, thus seeming =93virtual=94 to us.&nbsp; </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Our universe, and the other 125 parallel universes&nbsp;can be =
considered=20
as partially overlapping 3-D space =93floating=94 on an immense 5-D =
space - the=20
hyperspace, but is there a "real" limit to only 125 alternative=20
universes?&nbsp;An interesting point - if you are working on a Sci-Fi=20
script.&nbsp;<BR><BR>For those of you who successfully mastered =
visualizing a=20
hypercube, try imagining what an "ultracube" looks like. It's the five-=20
dimensional analog of the cube, but this time it is bounded by one =
hypercube on=20
each of its 10 faces.&nbsp;Now if you have that in mind, "stretch" the =
ultracube=20
into an onion-like ultrasphere and you have mastered the whole =
shebang... or was=20
that big bang?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Jones</DIV>
<DIV></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Subject: Re: Jed's Conversion?
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Vince Cockeram wrote:

>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wesley Bruce" 
> <wesleybruce iinet.net.au>
>
>> If the black box records a catholic pilot during a plane crash saying 
>> "Oh God, oh God, oh God" he's deemed a sad hero.
>> If a Muslim pilot is recorded saying the same thing he's deemed a 
>> suicidal terrorist. I don't think its fair.
>
>
> It is perfectly fair Wesley. The Catholic pilot didn't shut the 
> engines down.
>
> Ref: NTSB Final Report      http://www.ntsb.gov/Publictn/2002/aab0201.htm
>
> Vince Cockeram

I knew that but so did the catholic pilot in South America he was 
getting the wrong signals from the computer and flew the plane straight 
into the ground. It was on the NTSB show on National Geographic. If the 
computers doing strange things to you and you can't explain it; what do 
you say? October 30, 1999, an EgyptAir captain who had flown the 
accident airplane reported that he had experienced difficulties with the 
autopilot during a portion of that flight. Sounds like a training glitch 
if you read the rest of the paragraph.
If the controls were indicating a reversed response to the relief 
steward then he might have thought he had to push instead of pull. The 
captain ordered the engines off shortly after saying "get away in the 
engines,".

In Australia some of us are very defensive about calmness being seen as 
an indicter of guilt we have had several cases where that was 
miss-interpreted as callousness and people  were punished for simply 
being calm. The Chamberlain case was on such case.
Without additional information I don't think you can be conclusive. 
Unfortunately that would require another accident where the relevant 
controls failed. I was really thinking about the media response not the 
NTSB.

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Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Snide comments about hurricane Katrina
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>My apologies to our Republican friends reading this forum, but I cannot 
>resist posting two quotes here.

And my apologies to our Democrat friends reading this forum, but...

The Democrat Mayor of New Orleans left the buses parked rather than using them, as was the plan, to evacuate those who needed it.

The Democrat governor of LA refused to put through the proper authorizations for the Feds to act.

Today, the Mayor and the Gov cannot decide whther or not they are or are not going to force people to leave N.O.

And so on...

That having been said, the blame game is useless--I wouldn't bother with it except that the afore-mentioned governor and mayor were the first to scream that the Feds should have acted more swiftly, when it was their own incompetence that resulted in the vast bulk of needless death.

Also, I really don't think the Democrat/Republican aspect is relevant--the Gov. and the Mayor screwed up big time--they could have done that as Republicans, too.

It is not at all clear that the Feds made any major mistakes--they were, however, hopelessly under-equipped for this sort of disaster--FEMA does not have it's own fire department, nor its own police department--it is supposed to help MANAGE  and coordinate available assets when asked by locals. It cannot send in the national guard, nor can it call on the military to go in. Granted, there are additional episodes of incompetence spread throughout FEMA--one does not discover who isn't going to be up to the job of managing a disaster until one has a disaster to manage.  Almost all of the  early criticism as been misplaced against the Federal government, but if criticism is to be leveled, it should start at the local level with the performance of those closest to the scene with the most immediate responsibility.  In short, if Kerry were president, this scenario would have played out pretty much exactly as it already has, except the carping and bitching would be coming out of other mouths.

And that having been said, I will temper it with this--it is hard to govern a bunch of intractable, stubborn Americans who steadfastly resist doing what they're told to do, even when it is for their own good.  If the mayor had sent the buses, would people have boarded them to leave, or would they have decided to ride it out anyeway?  I don't know.  For all I know, the mayor's inaction may not have resulted in a single additional death.

Now is the time for partisans to shut up and start helping with the bailing, on both sides.  Heads will eventually roll, and they should roll--but today is not the day to swing the axe.     


>FEMA director Mike Brown was employed from 1991 to 2000 as the chief rules 
>enforcer for the Arabian Horse Association. On Thursday he expressed 
>surprise and consternation when told by a reporter that 15,000 people were 
>stranded at the New Orleans convention center. Kate Hale, the former 
>Miami-Dade emergency management director, said of Mr. Brown: "He's done a 
>hell of a job, because I'm not aware of any Arabian horses being killed in 
>this storm."

As it turns out, the local officials didn't want aid to be sent in, even though the Red Cross was right there waiting to go, because they didn't want the convention center nor the Superdome to become a magnet for more people to head to--they wanted them to leave the city instead.  It is very hard to blame Mike Brown for the sin of a local governnment that told everyone to go to a place where they were not going to have adequate food or sanitation if the power went out.

>Yesterday the Daily Show yesterday played a comment made by the Presdent's 
>mother, Barbara Bush, during a radio broadcast. She described the people in 
>the Texas Astrodome: ". . . and so many of the people in the arenas here, 
>you know, are underprivileged anyway. This is working out well for them."

Now that WAS funny.

Jeffery D. Kooistra 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  7 19:13:47 2005
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To: <dskjdk myexcel.com>, <vortex-L@eskimo.com>
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Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Snide comments about hurricane Katrina
Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 22:13:28 -0400
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This horrific and largely preventable tragedy in New Orleans and surrounding 
areas should be a wake up call to all Americans that we need to change the 
course our nation is on.  Because it's obviously the wrong course when 
something like this happens.  We've neglected our country for far too long 
and this is the unfortunate fruit that is born of this neglect.  Sure, we 
can't prevent hurricanes, but we surely can prepare for them and prepare to 
deal with the aftermath.  Our preparedness and response was utterly inept. 
No reason to snipe about who's to blame at this point, we need to focus on 
ensuring nothing like this ever happens again.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jeff and Dorothy Kooistra" <dskjdk myexcel.com>
To: <vortex-L eskimo.com>; <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2005 9:51 PM
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Snide comments about hurricane Katrina


>
>>My apologies to our Republican friends reading this forum, but I cannot
>>resist posting two quotes here.
>
> And my apologies to our Democrat friends reading this forum, but...
>
> The Democrat Mayor of New Orleans left the buses parked rather than using 
> them, as was the plan, to evacuate those who needed it.
>
> The Democrat governor of LA refused to put through the proper 
> authorizations for the Feds to act.
>
> Today, the Mayor and the Gov cannot decide whther or not they are or are 
> not going to force people to leave N.O.
>
> And so on...
>
> That having been said, the blame game is useless--I wouldn't bother with 
> it except that the afore-mentioned governor and mayor were the first to 
> scream that the Feds should have acted more swiftly, when it was their own 
> incompetence that resulted in the vast bulk of needless death.
>
> Also, I really don't think the Democrat/Republican aspect is relevant--the 
> Gov. and the Mayor screwed up big time--they could have done that as 
> Republicans, too.
>
> It is not at all clear that the Feds made any major mistakes--they were, 
> however, hopelessly under-equipped for this sort of disaster--FEMA does 
> not have it's own fire department, nor its own police department--it is 
> supposed to help MANAGE  and coordinate available assets when asked by 
> locals. It cannot send in the national guard, nor can it call on the 
> military to go in. Granted, there are additional episodes of incompetence 
> spread throughout FEMA--one does not discover who isn't going to be up to 
> the job of managing a disaster until one has a disaster to manage.  Almost 
> all of the  early criticism as been misplaced against the Federal 
> government, but if criticism is to be leveled, it should start at the 
> local level with the performance of those closest to the scene with the 
> most immediate responsibility.  In short, if Kerry were president, this 
> scenario would have played out pretty much exactly as it already has, 
> except the carping and bitching would be coming out of othe!
> r mouths.
>
> And that having been said, I will temper it with this--it is hard to 
> govern a bunch of intractable, stubborn Americans who steadfastly resist 
> doing what they're told to do, even when it is for their own good.  If the 
> mayor had sent the buses, would people have boarded them to leave, or 
> would they have decided to ride it out anyeway?  I don't know.  For all I 
> know, the mayor's inaction may not have resulted in a single additional 
> death.
>
> Now is the time for partisans to shut up and start helping with the 
> bailing, on both sides.  Heads will eventually roll, and they should 
> roll--but today is not the day to swing the axe.
>
>
>>FEMA director Mike Brown was employed from 1991 to 2000 as the chief rules
>>enforcer for the Arabian Horse Association. On Thursday he expressed
>>surprise and consternation when told by a reporter that 15,000 people were
>>stranded at the New Orleans convention center. Kate Hale, the former
>>Miami-Dade emergency management director, said of Mr. Brown: "He's done a
>>hell of a job, because I'm not aware of any Arabian horses being killed in
>>this storm."
>
> As it turns out, the local officials didn't want aid to be sent in, even 
> though the Red Cross was right there waiting to go, because they didn't 
> want the convention center nor the Superdome to become a magnet for more 
> people to head to--they wanted them to leave the city instead.  It is very 
> hard to blame Mike Brown for the sin of a local governnment that told 
> everyone to go to a place where they were not going to have adequate food 
> or sanitation if the power went out.
>
>>Yesterday the Daily Show yesterday played a comment made by the Presdent's
>>mother, Barbara Bush, during a radio broadcast. She described the people 
>>in
>>the Texas Astrodome: ". . . and so many of the people in the arenas here,
>>you know, are underprivileged anyway. This is working out well for them."
>
> Now that WAS funny.
>
> Jeffery D. Kooistra
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  7 19:20:24 2005
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Subject: Re: 5-Space and the Perfect Cube
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Very nice site on "extra-dimesnionality," with images:
http://people.cs.uchicago.edu/~mbw/astro18200/dimensions.html

In fact, if you have followed cutting-edge cosmolgy recently, and the =
3-D structural computer plottings of galaxy spacing, based on all the =
data available, they are remarkably similar to "Calabi-Yau space" which =
is illustrated.

BTW 5-space is pretty much inherent in Kaluza-Klein theory BUT it does =
not necessarily have to be "curled-up" as is the normal verbalization....
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2722" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff background=3D"">
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Very nice site on =
"extra-dimesnionality," with=20
images:<BR><A=20
href=3D"http://people.cs.uchicago.edu/~mbw/astro18200/dimensions.html">ht=
tp://people.cs.uchicago.edu/~mbw/astro18200/dimensions.html</A></FONT><FO=
NT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2><BR><BR>In fact, if you have followed cutting-edge =
cosmolgy=20
recently, and the 3-D structural computer plottings of galaxy spacing, =
based on=20
all the data available, they are remarkably similar to&nbsp;"Calabi-Yau =
space"=20
which is illustrated.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>BTW 5-space is pretty much inherent in =
Kaluza-Klein=20
theory BUT it does not necessarily have to be "curled-up" as is the =
normal=20
verbalization....</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Snide comments about hurricane Katrina
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BlankJohn Coviello wrote..
>Our preparedness and response was utterly inept.=20
>No reason to snipe about who's to blame at this point, we need to focus =
on=20
>ensuring nothing like this ever happens again.

John,

 Anuone ever try to do business in the state of Louisana ?=20

Richard

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<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
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href=3D"file://E:\Program Files\Common Files\Microsoft =
Shared\Stationery\">
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<DIV>John Coviello wrote..</DIV>
<P>&gt;Our preparedness and response was utterly inept. <BR>&gt;No =
reason to=20
snipe about who's to blame at this point, we need to focus on =
<BR>&gt;ensuring=20
nothing like this ever happens again.<BR><BR>John,</P>
<P>&nbsp;Anuone ever try to do business in the state of Louisana ? </P>
<P>Richard</P></BODY></HTML>

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Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 04:27:52 +0100
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Grimer <f.grimer grimer2.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: RE: 90mpg
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At 12:00 pm 06/09/2005 -0400, you wrote:
>> From: Grimer
>
>> I know someone who runs his second hand diesel 
>> on cooking oil from the local Tesco. 
>
> Does he have to use diesel to start the engine 
> and switch to the fish & chips?  
> Or, will the engine start on the cooking oil?

He just puts rapeseed oil (called Vegetable oil 
in the supermarket) straight into the tank.

On a warm day (ambient +10degC) the engine starts fine. 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  7 23:06:07 2005
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From: "John Steck" <johnsteck tetrahelix.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Global Warming - State of Fear
Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 01:05:13 -0500
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Methane release is methane release... Whether it is freed from underground
storage, vegetation storage, or permafrost the net result is the same.

-john

-----Original Message-----
From: Craig Haynie [mailto:public craighaynie.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2005 9:05 AM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Global Warming - State of Fear


> Cow farts.... the 3rd largest source of methane release on the planet. 
> http://www.epa.gov/methane/sources.html
>
> Cow-talitic converters?

But everyone here realizes, (right?), that biological emissions of such 
gasses do not contribute to global warming, because the carbon emitted from 
a biologic, into the environment, was carbon which was recently pulled by 
the biologic, from the environment. In other words, there is no net increase

in greenhouse gasses due to biological life. The problem, (if there is a 
problem, and I'm not sure there is), occurs when carbon, which has been 
stored deep within the earth for eons, is now pulled from the ground and 
emitted into the environment, causing an increase in carbon dioxide in the 
atmosphere. This would be the only cause of additional greehnouse gasses in 
the atmosphere -- not biological life.

And, the only way to stop it, is to stop pulling carbon from the ground. It 
doesn't help to slow down the process, or reduce greenhouse gas emissions 
from cars. As long as carbon is pulled from places where it has not been a 
part of the environment, into the environment, there will be a gradual 
increase in CO2 in the atmosphere.

Craig Haynie (Houston)



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Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 02:48:19 -0500
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From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: My comments on Intelligent Design
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Parksie was up to his usual shtick. IMHO, you have to be blind in 
order to miss that the biological mechanism is just a container for 
the soul. Consequently a Chimp may share 99% of it's DNA with us, but 
it lacks the thing which makes us human, a soul. This is the same 
mentality which labels the DNA whose function they don't understand, 
junk. IMHO, Parksie has less understanding about life than a pig has 
about Easter.

Someone posted a link 
http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/2005/06/researchers_say.php , in 
which they are discussing the intelligence of Jews. IMHO, their 
intelligence has more to do with the culture which prizes 
scholarship. The same effect in reverse produces the lower scores of 
blacks, whose first agenda is having fun, and doing what they want to 
do. Having tried both cultural attitudes,  I can tell you that's how 
it works. Learning to read Torah in Hebrew produces an increase in 
intellectual ability.

I found this cartoon in Rubes Archives at, 
http://today.iwon.com/toonfunview/id/9.html , if you don't see the 
chimp looking at a book on Intelligent Design, click the previous 
cartoon link. I'm curious if someone can click on this link and see 
the cartoon.


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Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 19:37:46 +1000
From: Wesley Bruce <wesleybruce iinet.net.au>
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Subject: Re: My comments on Intelligent Design
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thomas malloy wrote:

> Parksie was up to his usual shtick. IMHO, you have to be blind in 
> order to miss that the biological mechanism is just a container for 
> the soul. Consequently a Chimp may share 99% of it's DNA with us, but 
> it lacks the thing which makes us human, a soul. This is the same 
> mentality which labels the DNA whose function they don't understand, 
> junk. IMHO, Parksie has less understanding about life than a pig has 
> about Easter.
>
> Someone posted a link 
> http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/2005/06/researchers_say.php , in 
> which they are discussing the intelligence of Jews. IMHO, their 
> intelligence has more to do with the culture which prizes scholarship. 
> The same effect in reverse produces the lower scores of blacks, whose 
> first agenda is having fun, and doing what they want to do. Having 
> tried both cultural attitudes,  I can tell you that's how it works. 
> Learning to read Torah in Hebrew produces an increase in intellectual 
> ability.
>
> I found this cartoon in Rubes Archives at, 
> http://today.iwon.com/toonfunview/id/9.html , if you don't see the 
> chimp looking at a book on Intelligent Design, click the previous 
> cartoon link. I'm curious if someone can click on this link and see 
> the cartoon.
>
>
Yep I agree with most of that but we may not even need a soul if God can 
resurrect people with all the neural links an synapses in place. It 
always struck me as strange that many atheists can accept the idea of 
teleportation; i.e. star trek while finding resurection in the biblical 
sense as impossible.

I tried the cartoon and the previous cartoon link; both worked. That 
guys going to have a bad back for a while.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep  8 02:57:29 2005
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Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 19:53:27 +1000
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Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Chimpanzee genome decoded
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Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Just like us, almost. See:
>
> http://www.wired.com/news/medtech/0,1286,68706,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_10
>
> QUOTE:
>
> "[Human and chimp] DNA remains highly similar -- about 96 percent to 
> almost 99 percent identical, depending on how the comparison is made.
>
> Still, the number of genetic differences between a human and a chimp 
> is about 10 times more than between any two humans, the federal genome 
> institute says. It's the differences -- some 40 million -- that 
> attract the attention of scientists."
>
>
> The article does not mention this, but since the human genome project 
> began the technology for decoding DNA has improved tremendously. Speed 
> has increased and the cost has dropped by orders of magnitude, and the 
> process is much more automated. This is a tremendous boon to biology. 
> The genomes for many different species are now being decoded.
>
> Someday, in the distant future, it may be possible to decode every 
> individual person's entire genome. The results may be fascinating, but 
> I fear they may lead to all kinds of predictions about their 
> personality, health, longevity, criminal proclivities and 
> who-knows-what else.
>
> - Jed
>
>
It's only one protein system, cytochrome c protein,  they have compared 
not the whole genome.
see http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2005/0905chimp.asp

I assume from the second statement you've seen Gattica

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep  8 03:36:21 2005
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
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Subject: Re: Acid Rain Lowers Global Warming
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------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

It seems that nature is trying to bring things into balance
by absorbing the acidic gases CO2, SO3 and NO2 in raindrops
thus bringing them to the earth where they are absorbed by cations in the soil
and sea water.

In Atmospheric Raindrops:

CO2 + H2O ---->   H2CO3

SO3 + H2O -----> H2SO3

2 NO2 + H2O ----> HNO3 + HNO2

In Ground Water:

CaCO3  + H2CO3 ----->  Ca(HCO3)2

CaCO3 + H2SO3 -----> CaSO3 + H2CO3aq

H2CO3aq + CaCO3 ----->  Ca(HCO3)2

CaCO3 + HNO3 + HNO2  -----> Ca(NO3-NO2) + H2CO3

H2CO3aq + CaCO3 ---->  Ca(HCO3)2

Also, "Depletion" of the Ozone Layer allows lower level
oxidation of Methane to CO2 + H2O where it can be scrubbed by the same
process.

Frederick
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8
Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

<HTML style="FONT-SIZE: x-small; FONT-FAMILY: MS Sans Serif"><HEAD>
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<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<P>
<DIV>It seems that nature is trying to bring things into balance</DIV>
<DIV>by absorbing the acidic gases CO2, SO3 and NO2 in raindrops</DIV>
<DIV>thus bringing them to the earth where they are absorbed by cations in the soil</DIV>
<DIV>and sea water.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>In Atmospheric Raindrops:</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>CO2 + H2O ----&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; H2CO3</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>SO3 + H2O -----&gt; H2SO3</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>2 NO2 + H2O ----&gt; HNO3 + HNO2</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>In Ground Water:</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>CaCO3&nbsp;&nbsp;+ H2CO3&nbsp;-----&gt;&nbsp; Ca(HCO3)2</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>CaCO3 + H2SO3 -----&gt; CaSO3 + H2CO3aq</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>H2CO3aq + CaCO3 -----&gt;&nbsp; Ca(HCO3)2</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>CaCO3 + HNO3 + HNO2&nbsp; -----&gt; Ca(NO3-NO2) + H2CO3</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>H2CO3aq + CaCO3 ----&gt;&nbsp; Ca(HCO3)2</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Also, "Depletion" of the Ozone Layer allows lower level</DIV>
<DIV>oxidation of Methane to CO2 + H2O where it can be scrubbed by the same</DIV>
<DIV>process.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Frederick</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<P></P></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8--


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------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Oops SO3 should have been SO2.

Corrected:

It seems that nature is trying to bring things into balance
by absorbing the acidic gases CO2, SO2 and NO2 in raindrops
thus bringing them to the earth where they are absorbed by cations in the soil
and sea water.

In Atmospheric Raindrops:

CO2 + H2O ---->   H2CO3

SO2 + H2O -----> H2SO3

2 NO2 + H2O ----> HNO3 + HNO2

In Ground Water:

CaCO3  + H2CO3 ----->  Ca(HCO3)2

CaCO3 + H2SO3 -----> CaSO3 + H2CO3aq

H2CO3aq + CaCO3 ----->  Ca(HCO3)2

CaCO3 + HNO3 + HNO2  -----> Ca(NO3-NO2) + H2CO3

H2CO3aq + CaCO3 ---->  Ca(HCO3)2

Also, "Depletion" of the Ozone Layer allows lower level
oxidation of Methane to CO2 + H2O where it can be scrubbed by the same
process.

Frederick
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<DIV><FONT face=Verdana>
<DIV>Oops SO3 should have been SO2.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Corrected:</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>It seems that nature is trying to bring things into balance</DIV>
<DIV>by absorbing the acidic gases CO2, SO2 and NO2 in raindrops</DIV>
<DIV>thus bringing them to the earth where they are absorbed by cations in the soil</DIV>
<DIV>and sea water.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>In Atmospheric Raindrops:</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>CO2 + H2O ----&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; H2CO3</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>SO2 + H2O -----&gt; H2SO3</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>2 NO2 + H2O ----&gt; HNO3 + HNO2</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>In Ground Water:</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>CaCO3&nbsp;&nbsp;+ H2CO3&nbsp;-----&gt;&nbsp; Ca(HCO3)2</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>CaCO3 + H2SO3 -----&gt; CaSO3 + H2CO3aq</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>H2CO3aq + CaCO3 -----&gt;&nbsp; Ca(HCO3)2</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>CaCO3 + HNO3 + HNO2&nbsp; -----&gt; Ca(NO3-NO2) + H2CO3</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>H2CO3aq + CaCO3 ----&gt;&nbsp; Ca(HCO3)2</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Also, "Depletion" of the Ozone Layer allows lower level</DIV>
<DIV>oxidation of Methane to CO2 + H2O where it can be scrubbed by the same</DIV>
<DIV>process.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Frederick</DIV></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<P></P></BODY></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep  8 04:55:03 2005
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Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 21:53:38 +1000
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We wont totally eliminate oil. There will always be car enthusiasts. My 
father is restoring a 1920's Bullnose Morris truck. When I suggested 
converting it to Cold Fusion he threatened me with grievous bodily harm. 
;-)    He was just kidding I hope.
Oil based fuel will become an boutique energy technology like fine wine 
or rare bottled water. It wont sell through a petrol station but will be 
bought hardware store in large cans. A few automotive clubs may buy up a 
petrol station and retain the equipment just as train clubs maintain a 
few old train stations and defunct tracks. However it will only be their 
club house not a viable business.  Larry Niven covered it perfectly with 
the essay  "Exercise in Speculation: The Theory and Practice of 
Teleportation." in the book "All the Myriad Ways" and related works. 
Even in a world with no need for cars there will still be a few cars. 
Unfortunately my copy got stolen so I can't give you page numbers. 
(Never lend books to anyone unless you have their next five addresses.)

Coal will survive to because its used for coke based steel making. Yet 
only the cleanest most efficiently mined coal will survive.

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After two years at Sandia Labs in 1957 we bought  4.25 acres of flood irrigated land
in the Rio Grande valley 30 miles south of Albuquerque. I had it terraced for
easier irrigation and planted alfalfa hay.

The "pocket"  gophers appreciated this ready food supply and burrowed
about 8 to 12 inches below grade to get at the roots and in doing so their burrows followed
the terrace contour, which turned into syphons when the land was flooded resulting
in washouts large enough to hold a Volkswagon.

"Consultants" at Sandia suggested planting Castor Beans (Ricin?) because the rodent
cannot regurgitate. "Raising Castor Beans is like raising rattlesnakes", said the county agent.
I raised one plant that grew about 10 feet high with a 3 inch trunk. 
I tried piping the exhaust from my car into the burrows, overheated the engine.
I tried cyanide "bombs" to no avail.
I built a super high gain geophone that made the gopher's movement sound
like an approaching locomotive, with the intent of shooting them with a high-powered
rifle, but "we" (Sandia consultants) couldn't figure out how to keep from getting ruptured eardrums when the bullet hit the ground.
I borrowed a gas mask from the local national guard armory so that I could
gas them with SO2 refrigerant from a large cylinder run through a hose to
a pipe that was pushed into the ground to their burrow. I covered the whole field, but the next
morning the lush green alfalfa had turned as white as snow! I panicked and irrigated it
thoroughly. It recovered, and the crop yield was the highest the alkali land ever produced.
I also dug trenches around the edges of the field and filled them with large gravel so the
gophers couldn't' burrow through them.

The Rational Solution:
I bought a dozen gopher traps and hired a neighbor boy to trap them, 25 cents for males and
50 cents for females (my wife said I was prejudiced). The neighbor boy retired after about $30.00 worth and sold his business to his sister, but I had to pay her 50 cents each to
placate my wife and get around having to establish gopher gender.

Problem Solved.   :-)

Frederick
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<DIV>After two years at Sandia Labs in 1957 we bought&nbsp; 4.25 acres of flood irrigated land</DIV>
<DIV>in the Rio Grande valley 30 miles south of Albuquerque. I had it terraced for</DIV>
<DIV>easier irrigation and planted alfalfa hay.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The "pocket" &nbsp;gophers appreciated this ready food supply and burrowed</DIV>
<DIV>about 8 to 12 inches below grade to get at the roots and in doing so their burrows followed</DIV>
<DIV>the terrace contour, which turned into syphons when the land was flooded resulting</DIV>
<DIV>in washouts large enough to hold a Volkswagon.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>"Consultants" at Sandia suggested planting Castor Beans (Ricin?) because the rodent</DIV>
<DIV>cannot regurgitate. "Raising Castor Beans is like raising rattlesnakes", said the county agent.</DIV>
<DIV>I raised one plant that grew about 10 feet high with a 3 inch trunk. </DIV>
<DIV>I tried piping the exhaust from my car into the burrows, overheated the engine.</DIV>
<DIV>I tried cyanide "bombs" to no avail.</DIV>
<DIV>I built a super high gain geophone that made the gopher's movement sound</DIV>
<DIV>like an approaching locomotive, with the intent of shooting them with a high-powered</DIV>
<DIV>rifle, but "we" (Sandia consultants) couldn't figure out how to keep from getting ruptured eardrums when the bullet hit the ground.</DIV>
<DIV>I borrowed a gas mask from the local national guard armory so that I could</DIV>
<DIV>gas them with SO2 refrigerant from a large cylinder run through a hose to</DIV>
<DIV>a pipe that was pushed into the ground to their burrow. I covered the whole field, but the next</DIV>
<DIV>morning the lush green alfalfa had turned as white as snow! I panicked and irrigated it</DIV>
<DIV>thoroughly. It recovered, and the crop yield was the highest the alkali land ever produced.</DIV>
<DIV>I also dug trenches around the edges of the field and filled them with large gravel so the</DIV>
<DIV>gophers couldn't' burrow through them.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The Rational Solution:</DIV>
<DIV>I bought a dozen gopher traps and hired a neighbor&nbsp;boy to trap them, 25 cents for males and</DIV>
<DIV>50 cents for females (my wife said I was prejudiced). The neighbor boy retired after about $30.00 worth and sold his business to his sister, but I had to pay her 50 cents each to</DIV>
<DIV>placate my wife and get around having to establish gopher gender.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Problem Solved.&nbsp;&nbsp; :-)</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Frederick</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<P></P></BODY></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep  8 06:31:14 2005
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Thanks  Nick.


http://bioenergy.ornl.gov/papers/miscanthus/miscanthus.html

"Miscanthus is a tall perennial grass that has been evaluated in Europe during the past 5-10 years as a new bioenergy crop. It is sometimes confused with elephant grass (Pennisetum purpureum) and has been called both "elephant grass" and "E-grass". Most of the miscanthus cultivars proposed as a commercial crop in Europe are sterile hybrids (Miscanthus x giganteus) which originated in Japan. A number of ornamental varieties of miscanthus are also known to exist under various common names. Miscanthus can be harvested every year with a sugar cane harvester and can be grown in a cool climate like that of northern Europe. Like other bioenergy crops, the harvested stems of miscanthus may be used as fuel for production of heat and electric power, or for conversion to other useful products such as ethanol. "
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<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><EM>Thanks&nbsp; Nick.</EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM></EM>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><EM></EM>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><EM><A href="http://bioenergy.ornl.gov/papers/miscanthus/miscanthus.html">http://bioenergy.ornl.gov/papers/miscanthus/miscanthus.html</A></EM></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>"Miscanthus is a tall perennial grass that has been evaluated in Europe during the past 5-10 years as a new bioenergy crop. It is sometimes confused with elephant grass (<I>Pennisetum purpureum</I>) and has been called both "elephant grass" and "E-grass". Most of the miscanthus cultivars proposed as a commercial crop in Europe are sterile hybrids (<I>Miscanthus x giganteus</I>) which originated in Japan. A number of ornamental varieties of miscanthus are also known to exist under various common names. Miscanthus can be harvested every year with a sugar cane harvester and can be grown in a cool climate like that of northern Europe. Like other bioenergy crops, the harvested stems of miscanthus may be used as fuel for production of heat and electric power, or for conversion to other useful products such as ethanol. "</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep  8 07:02:51 2005
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From: OrionWorks <orionworks charter.net>
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> From: thomas malloy 

> Parksie was up to his usual shtick. IMHO, you have to be
> blind in order to miss that the biological mechanism is
> just a container for the soul. Consequently a Chimp may
> share 99% of it's DNA with us, but it lacks the thing
> which makes us human, a soul. This is the same mentality
> which labels the DNA whose function they don't
> understand, junk. IMHO, Parksie has less understanding
> about life than a pig has about Easter.
> 
> Someone posted a link 
> http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/2005/06/researchers_say.php ,
> in which they are discussing the intelligence of Jews.
> IMHO, their intelligence has more to do with the culture
> which prizes scholarship. The same effect in reverse
> produces the lower scores of blacks, whose first agenda
> is having fun, and doing what they want to do. Having
> tried both cultural attitudes,  I can tell you that's how
> it works. Learning to read Torah in Hebrew produces an
> increase in intellectual ability.
> 
> I found this cartoon in Rubes Archives at, 
> http://today.iwon.com/toonfunview/id/9.html ,
> if you don't see the chimp looking at a book on
> Intelligent Design, click the previous cartoon link.
> I'm curious if someone can click on this link and see 
> the cartoon.
> 

Here we go again...I fear.

Regarding who is in possession of "souls", I can't let this pass without comment.

Extensive research has been put into analyzing the conscious awareness of primates like chimpanzees and gorillas. The final analysis: As much as it might disturb certain humans to consider, experiments indicate there really isn't much difference between their perceived sense of self and our own.

Place a mirror in front of a chimpanzee or gorilla and soon they will start doing things like making gestures into the mirror, or more telling, picking the tarter off their teeth. This indicates clearly that these primates have a clear conceptual sense of "self", that they recognize the fact that they are seeing themselves in the mirror.

Meanwhile, similar experiments have been performed with the lower primates and they never get it. They never recognize the fact that the monkey they see in the mirror is in reality themselves. They will do things like look behind the mirror hoping to find the source of the image.

In my book: Recognizing one's "self" is to recognize the existence of one's soul. The fact that they may not be capable of reading Hebrew is a trivial factor in the greater scheme of things. 

I can't read Hebrew either.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

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That's hysterical!

Also, I loved the story about the rolling atomic bomb.

- Jed


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I originally posted this quote on May 30th:

Crichton's new book.  Page 455:

"Has it ever occurred to you how astonishing the culture of Western society really is? Industrialized nations provide their citizens with unprecedented safety, health, and comfort. Average life spans increased fifty percent in the last century. Yet modern people live in abject fear. They are afraid of strangers, of disease, of crime, of the environment. They are afraid of the homes they live in, the food they eat, the technology that surrounds them. They are in particular panic over things they can't even see -- germs, chemicals, additives, pollutants. They are timid, nervous, fretful, and depressed. And even more amazingly, they are convinced that the environment of the entire planet is being destroyed around them. Remarkable! Like the belief in witchcraft, it's an extraordinary delusion -- a global fantasy worthy of the Middle Ages. Everything is going to hell, and we must all live in fear. Amazing." 

Prof. Hoffman to Peter Evans, esq.


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There are millions of acres of subsidized acres that are usually mowed with
a brush hog to get about $35.00/acre-year.

Most of this land is in the states that could easily show 6 tons/acre annual Miscanthus yield.

If nothing else it could be buried in the coal strip mining backfill to offset fossil 
fuel CO2 buildup, and harvested as natural gas in about twenty years.

http://econ-www.mit.edu/faculty/download_pdf.php?id=991

Frederick
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<DIV>There are millions of acres of subsidized acres that are usually mowed with</DIV>
<DIV>a brush hog to get about $35.00/acre-year.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Most of this land is in the states that could easily show 6 tons/acre annual Miscanthus yield.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>If nothing else it could be buried in the coal strip mining backfill to offset fossil </DIV>
<DIV>fuel CO2 buildup, and harvested as natural gas in about twenty years.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://econ-www.mit.edu/faculty/download_pdf.php?id=991">http://econ-www.mit.edu/faculty/download_pdf.php?id=991</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Frederick</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: eliminating oil
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Wesley Bruce wrote:

>We wont totally eliminate oil. There will always be car enthusiasts.

That's what I said in my book, in chapter 17. I am a step ahead of you!

We will also need oil for plastics and other synthetic materials. Today, 
roughly 20% of oil is used for such "non-fuel" applications. However, I 
expect it will be safer and cheaper to synthesize oil on site from garbage 
rather than to dig it out of the ground and transport it long distances. 
Garbage-to-oil systems are already in use and they are economical when you 
take into account the money it would cost to dispose of the garbage by 
conventional methods. See chapter 13. In the more distant future it will be 
cheaper to synthesize oil from air and water.

The remaining antique gasoline powered automobiles will also be powered by 
synthetic fuel.


>Coal will survive to because its used for coke based steel making.
>  Yet only the cleanest most efficiently mined coal will survive.

That is true. You need to add carbon to the iron to make steel. However, in 
the long term I think this coal will also be synthetic. That is, it will be 
made from existing, aboveground sources of carbon such as garbage or carbon 
removed from the dioxide in the atmosphere. Given unlimited amounts of 
energy I think this would be safer and cheaper than mining coal. Of course 
underground mining will be done almost exclusively with robots. Strip 
mining is reasonably safe but it is environmentally destructive.

Oil and coal made from carbon dioxide might remain more expensive than 
conventional materials, but people may use them anyway, to help reverse 
global warming. The government might subsidize steel and chemical companies 
to encourage the use of atmospheric carbon rather than underground sources 
of carbon. Existing above ground sources such as old newspapers or garbage 
would be fine, since they do not contribute to global warming, as Craig 
Haynie pointed out.

You can extract carbon from the atmosphere with conventional biological 
techniques of course, with quick growing plants or algae, but I think 
ultimately some sort of brute force industrial method will become more 
common. I suppose it would be faster and take a much less space. Nitrogen 
is removed from the atmosphere with high heat from electric arcs, I 
believe. Also with "caustic soda to remove CO2" followed by heated copper 
to remove oxygen. I do not know how you would go about breaking CO2 
molecules to reverse combustion, but there must be a way.

- Jed


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From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk
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Mathias,
I believe the dental care is free for under 16s and emergency via A+E is of
course free.

Jed,
On education: You can take the child out of the ghetto but can you take out
the ghetto out of the child...

This is controversial but hey, we like that stuff on Vo. Humans are subject
to the laws of genetics as other animals: if I look at people around
Deptford in SE London I see many descendants of dock workers - they are
thickset and none too bright (and violent). If I see descendants of
plantation slaves (as opposed to house slaves), they too are thickset and
thick.

Sincerely I believe that the 3rd world should exercise mild eugenics - marry
off the clever and wealthy to create a middle class who would then go on to
fill the professional and administrative jobs. The middle class make a
society work.

In societies with old cultures and religions they simply excel academically
- Jews, Chinese, Koreans, Japanese and Asians.

This is not PC but I advocate tough love.
Remi.

-----Original Message-----
From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On
Behalf Of Jed Rothwell
Sent: 07 September 2005 23:40
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: RE: YK2, gurus, economics

I hope that readers here do not mind this off-topic conversation. It is a 
fascinating aspect of social science that has interested me for many years.

To continue, I wrote:

>Wealthy and middle class people have nothing to worry about. Life hands us 
>everything we need on a silver spoon. Yet most are ambitious and hard 
>working. If giving people money with no obligation and removing obstacles 
>causes them to be lazy, then why on earth are people like William Clay 
>Ford driven 12-hour workaholics?!?

Today's New York Times has a particularly vivid illustration of what I have 
in mind here. See:
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/07/opinion/07sittenfeld.html

QUOTES:

"The self-containment of [wealthy] boarding schools can create terrariums 
of privilege in which students develop a skewed sense of money and have a 
hard time remembering that, in fact, it is not normal to go skiing in 
Switzerland just because it's March, or to receive an S.U.V. in celebration 
of one's 16th birthday. At, for example, Choate Rosemary Hall - one of many 
boarding schools starting classes this or next week - room, board and 
tuition for 2005-2006 is $35,360. . . Even when these schools hold chapel 
services espousing humility and service to others, it's the campus 
facilities - the gleaming multimillion-dollar gymnasium, say - that can 
send a louder message.

It's hard not to wonder: in a world of horrifying inequities, at what point 
do these lavishly maintained campuses go from enriching and bucolic to just 
obscene? Can a student living on such a campus be blamed if, logically 
working backward, she starts to think her access to such bounty must exist 
because she deserves it?"

It is hard to imagine a lifestyle and a set of attitudes that would make 
people feel more entitled to whatever they want. Compared to this, welfare 
payments could hardly have an effect. For one thing, the amount of money is 
$4,572 per year per family on average. $381 per week does not tell the 
recipient: "take life easy; don't bother working; you have nothing to worry 
about." On the contrary, the message is that life is tightrope and you are 
one disaster -- or one toothache -- away from losing whatever job you have 
and living on the street. But the other big difference is that message that 
comes attached to the check. The wealthy child learns there is plenty more 
where that came from; he deserves all that life has to offer; it is his 
birthright to take the money, take command, take the best job around, and 
run society. The money is a positive incentive. He learns that money is 
happiness, and the more you have, the happier you become. Wealth breeds 
both a sense of entitlement AND AT THE SAME TIME a work ethic. There is 
nothing contradictory about that.

My point is that if we could somehow arrange welfare payments to carry the 
same message that the rich child's allowance carries, they would not hurt 
anyone's work ethic or motivation. I know this sound ridiculous, but if you 
can imagine a situation in which we could afford to give everyone $100,000 
a year just as an allowance -- a birthright, if you will, so that everyone 
on welfare could afford an upper-middle-class lifestyle, I think this would 
completely remove all the deleterious effects of the welfare system. Nearly 
everyone, everywhere would eventually learn to proceed to live normal 
lives. They would compete to get into college, compete for jobs, go to the 
dentist whenever they needed it, and so on. I think it is not free money 
from welfare that hurts people's morale and destroys or motivation; it is 
the social stigma, and the low amount of money. It is just barely enough 
money to sustain a person in a cramped, miserable, hopeless life so that 
affords no means of education or self-improvement.

Of course this is impossible today. If we printed bales of money and 
distributed $100,000 to everyone, inflation would soon make it worth only a 
few thousand dollars. There are not enough resources to go around, 
especially because the elite  top 1% of population nowadays demands 
ownership of 40% of all wealth. * But I believe in the distant future, 
industry and agriculture become completely automated, and the necessities 
of life will literally become as cheap as air and water. If we build the 
right kind of technology and we arrange our laws, taxes education and other 
institutions wisely, I believe that in 100 or 200 years we will be able to 
give everyone what would today be considered a middle-class lifestyle, and 
we will demand -- and need -- nothing in return. There are more than enough 
people in this world who are willing to do the serious hard work of 
civilization and bear the burden whether you pay them or not. How do I 
know? Look at any research institution, in a university or government 
laboratory. Look at Stan Szpak or Richard Oriani. They retired years ago. 
They are paid nothing. But they come to work every day and contribute more 
to society than 100 other ordinary people combined.

As I wrote in the last chapter of the book:

"In the future, I hope that dire poverty will be eliminated everywhere on 
earth. People should have as much food and water, health care, higher 
education and Internet access as they want. These things should be free, 
like street lighting, public libraries and public elementary education are 
today. This does not mean I hope everyone will be able to live the way 
wealthy people do today, or I hope that great wealth will be abolished. I 
want everyone to achieve an American or European middle-class standard of 
living. . . ."

That is not utopian. It is not an unreachable goal. It is emphatically NOT 
socialism, or communism. The means of production will be privately owned -- 
but they will be worth a pittance by today's standards. This has been the 
trend of history for the last 300 years. The cost of useful energy, in the 
form of electricity, has probably fallen by a factor of a thousand or more 
since the beginning of the industrial revolution. Or take a pound of flour, 
which is the most essential Western food and a historical benchmark. In the 
late 18th century, at work camps and construction sites one adult man's 
rations consisted of a pound of flour and a pound of salt pork. It used to 
take the average person hours of labor to acquire this. Now we can buy one 
pound of flour retail for $0.89, or 10 minutes of labor at the minimum 
wage. (Note that it costs the mill about $0.12 to produce the flour.) Pork 
is about $3 per pound retail. In other words, if we were satisfied with the 
typical diet of 200 years ago, we could earn our daily bread doing no more 
than 50 minutes of labor per day. If we were also satisfied with the small 
houses of 200 years ago, outdoor privies, healthcare (essentially 
nonexistent), transportation (walking), a person earning an average salary 
today could pay for food, rent and most other necessities working about an 
hour a day, 5 days a week. [2] In other words, we have already driven down 
our cost of living to practically nothing, but of course we have raised our 
expectations. (I am not suggesting there is anything wrong with higher 
expectations, for that we should live like people in 1960s communes!)

In the far distant future, everyone will own their own electric generator, 
automobile and universal replicator that makes any food, gadget or other 
good the owner desires. I am suggesting that eventually technology will 
render the definitions of socialism and capitalism equally meaningless. 
Communism collapsed in 1989, and capitalism will probably not last much 
longer, as Arthur C. Clarke remarked. Economics is mainly the study of how 
people trade their labor for goods. When no one needs to do any labor, and 
goods are manufactured virtually for free and unlimited quantities, 
economics will become meaningless. Of course we will still have to reward 
people who do essential work and hard work, with professorships, 
decision-making power, large houses, extra salary and so on, but money will 
be the least important reward on the list.

I think that after we have achieved this state in the future, people will 
wonder what took us so long, or why anyone ever considered this 
controversial or impossible. When people first proposed that all children 
should be allowed to go to public schools, or that all children be 
inoculated against infectious disease, this was considered ridiculous and 
utopian. A few weeks after my great-grandmother emigrated from Hungary, she 
was stunned and incredulous to learn that all children were not only 
*allowed* to go to school in New York city, with no fees, bribes or 
entrance exams, they were *expected* to go. And she was an educated woman, 
who spoke three languages. Nowadays we take these things for granted, and 
no one considers them socialistic, or thinks they are bad for moral, or bad 
for your soul.

Out of all technologies, cold fusion will be the most essential to 
achieving these goals.

- Jed


1. Source: http://www.endgame.org/primer-wealth.html. There is no limit to 
this trend. The elite would take 99% of all wealth, if it could.

2. Medium household income is $42,228, or $844 per week. In this estimate, 
food costs $4 per day, and other necessities roughly $6, or $70 per 
week.  http://www.census.gov/prod/2002pubs/p60-218.pdf

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From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: RE: My comments on Intelligent Design
Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 16:13:13 +0100 
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Yes,
Learning to play classical music, reading to children, stable families
without domestic violence, taking care of mental and physical health, a
family dinner around the table with the TV off etc. etc.

It's the old nature nurture question. Though take a leaf out of sport, you
don't necessarily need to have the best genome but that something extra -
spirit. Take Carl Lewis who was in callipers and was probably (along with
Jesse Owens) the most perfect track athlete before drugs clouded things.

No, racism and class-ism is practiced by people who are lazy, mediocre and
want to have group membership to cover their own failings. Nationalism is
another example which is probably why it is better to say "may the best side
win."

Remi.

-----Original Message-----
From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On
Behalf Of thomas malloy
Sent: 08 September 2005 08:48
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: My comments on Intelligent Design

Parksie was up to his usual shtick. IMHO, you have to be blind in 
order to miss that the biological mechanism is just a container for 
the soul. Consequently a Chimp may share 99% of it's DNA with us, but 
it lacks the thing which makes us human, a soul. This is the same 
mentality which labels the DNA whose function they don't understand, 
junk. IMHO, Parksie has less understanding about life than a pig has 
about Easter.

Someone posted a link 
http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/2005/06/researchers_say.php , in 
which they are discussing the intelligence of Jews. IMHO, their 
intelligence has more to do with the culture which prizes 
scholarship. The same effect in reverse produces the lower scores of 
blacks, whose first agenda is having fun, and doing what they want to 
do. Having tried both cultural attitudes,  I can tell you that's how 
it works. Learning to read Torah in Hebrew produces an increase in 
intellectual ability.

I found this cartoon in Rubes Archives at, 
http://today.iwon.com/toonfunview/id/9.html , if you don't see the 
chimp looking at a book on Intelligent Design, click the previous 
cartoon link. I'm curious if someone can click on this link and see 
the cartoon.

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Subject: Acid Rain Lowers Global Warming
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Fred,
Apparently when volcanoes go off we are talking billions of equivalent
mega-tonnes of TNT, cubic kilometres of rock, lots and lots of gas.

Remember Mt Pinatobe(?) I'm sure the weather took a little dip for a year
but things recovered.

It can't be that bad.
Remi.

________________________________________
From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On
Behalf Of Frederick Sparber
Sent: 08 September 2005 10:35
To: vortex-l
Subject: Re: Acid Rain Lowers Global Warming

It seems that nature is trying to bring things into balance
by absorbing the acidic gases CO2, SO3 and NO2 in raindrops
thus bringing them to the earth where they are absorbed by cations in the
soil
and sea water.
 
In Atmospheric Raindrops:
 
CO2 + H2O ---->   H2CO3
 
SO3 + H2O -----> H2SO3
 
2 NO2 + H2O ----> HNO3 + HNO2
 
In Ground Water:
 
CaCO3  + H2CO3 ----->  Ca(HCO3)2
 
CaCO3 + H2SO3 -----> CaSO3 + H2CO3aq
 
H2CO3aq + CaCO3 ----->  Ca(HCO3)2
 
CaCO3 + HNO3 + HNO2  -----> Ca(NO3-NO2) + H2CO3
 
H2CO3aq + CaCO3 ---->  Ca(HCO3)2
 
Also, "Depletion" of the Ozone Layer allows lower level
oxidation of Methane to CO2 + H2O where it can be scrubbed by the same
process.
 
Frederick
 
 
 
 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep  8 08:34:33 2005
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: Global Warming - State of Fear
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Terry Blanton wrote:

>Crichton's new book.  Page 455:
>"Has it ever occurred to you how astonishing the culture of Western 
>society really is? Industrialized nations provide their citizens with 
>unprecedented safety, health, and comfort. Average life spans increased 
>fifty percent in the last century. Yet modern people live in abject fear. 
>They are afraid of strangers, of disease, of crime, of the environment. 
>They are afraid of the homes they live in, the food they eat, the 
>technology that surrounds them. . . .They are timid, nervous, fretful, and 
>depressed. And even more amazingly, they are convinced that the 
>environment of the entire planet is being destroyed around them. 
>Remarkable! Like the belief in witchcraft, it's an extraordinary delusion 
>-- a global fantasy worthy of the Middle Ages. Everything is going to 
>hell, and we must all live in fear. Amazing."

This is a colossally stupid thing to say. Does this guy know anything about 
history, biology or anthropology?

No, this is not "astonishing" or "remarkable." It is perfectly normal and 
completely understandable. People, other primates, and indeed all 
intelligent animals have lived in abject terror for billions of years. It 
is not just the human condition; it is the condition any sentient creature 
finds itself in most of the time, except for a few predators at the top of 
the food chain and very large herbivores such as elephants. Every other 
creature is subject to excruciating pain and death at any moment. Has 
Crichton noticed that deer, squirrels and other animals seem nervous? They 
have good reason to be; they are not paranoid, and they are not victims of 
modern delusions or duped by environmentalists. People are large animals 
close to the top of the food chain, but on the other hand our infants 
remain small and helpless for the longest duration of any animal. And of 
course we have always been subject to accident, disease, war, hurricanes et 
cetera. It would be astounding if we had magically transcended three 
billion years of evolution in only 300 years of Industrial Revolution.

I am reminded the scene in the movie the Seven Samurai when the old man 
explains to the samurai, "Farmers live in fear all their lives. When it 
rains they are afraid, when the sun shines they are afraid."

Besides, people nowadays still have plenty to be afraid of. Anyone who is 
not terrified by Atlanta traffic on I-285 is crazy. Strangers and crime are 
as bad as they ever were in any previous age, and disease is still no 
picnic. Most of us will die of painful diseases, mainly cancer, albeit in 
old age. It is just as terrifying at age 80 as 20.

- Jed


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>>>Remember Mt Pinatobe(?) I'm sure the weather took a little dip for a year
but things recovered.

It seems that stratospheric temperatures took a rise after Mt. Pinatubo.

http://www.ghcc.msfc.nasa.gov/MSU/msusci.html

Craig Haynie (Houston)


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep  8 08:42:48 2005
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And here I thought I was the only one to have the
"SO2 experience".  When I was about 12 years old,
I was hired by the local slumlord to fix all the
refrigerators in his crumbling awful apartment
buildings.  These babies were really old and mostly
had ammonia refrigerant, probably illegal, even back
then.  I got an ammonia cylinder to bleed and back-
fill the damn things. Fortunately, most of the problems
with these units were electrical, but occasionally I
was faced with having to deal with the ammonia.

I would open all the doors and windows of the apartment
and set to work.  One of these ancient refrigerators,
however, had an SO2 filled system and the damn thing
practically exploded on me.  The SO2 poured out of the
apartment window like a waterfall and spread over the
lawn in a low heavy mist.  Within minutes the lawn was
bleached white.

My slumlord employer fired me since I had ruined his
lawn, the only thing he seemed to maintain in his
disgusting apartments.  A few days later, the lawn
recovered, looking better than ever.  The guy then tried
to hire me back.  I said, "No thanks."

BTW, Fred, glad you're still with us after nearly being
run over by an atom bomb.

M.

_______________________________________________
Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
The most personalized portal on the Web!


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep  8 08:52:27 2005
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Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 11:51:52 -0500
From: Harry Veeder <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: eliminating oil
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Plastics are made from oil as well.

Harry

Wesley Bruce wrote:

> We wont totally eliminate oil. There will always be car enthusiasts. My
> father is restoring a 1920's Bullnose Morris truck. When I suggested
> converting it to Cold Fusion he threatened me with grievous bodily harm.
> ;-)    He was just kidding I hope.
> Oil based fuel will become an boutique energy technology like fine wine
> or rare bottled water. It wont sell through a petrol station but will be
> bought hardware store in large cans. A few automotive clubs may buy up a
> petrol station and retain the equipment just as train clubs maintain a
> few old train stations and defunct tracks. However it will only be their
> club house not a viable business.  Larry Niven covered it perfectly with
> the essay  "Exercise in Speculation: The Theory and Practice of
> Teleportation." in the book "All the Myriad Ways" and related works.
> Even in a world with no need for cars there will still be a few cars.
> Unfortunately my copy got stolen so I can't give you page numbers.
> (Never lend books to anyone unless you have their next five addresses.)
> 
> Coal will survive to because its used for coke based steel making. Yet
> only the cleanest most efficiently mined coal will survive.
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep  8 08:56:23 2005
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Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 11:54:59 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: YK2, gurus, economics, mild eugenics.
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R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk wrote:

>This is controversial but hey, we like that stuff on Vo. Humans are subject
>to the laws of genetics as other animals: if I look at people around
>Deptford in SE London I see many descendants of dock workers - they are
>thickset and none too bright (and violent).

I take exception to that. I am a descendent of a dock worker and sailor 
myself. (And going back a few generations, allegedly of pirates and 
smugglers -- who got caught and exiled, which is why I am here instead of 
back in Rothwell, England.) Let me assure you that sailing ships anytime in 
the last 500 years required intelligence, quick thinking and 
resourcefulness far in excess most modern occupations. Those who were none 
too bright were drowned at sea, or crushed in dock accidents. My father saw 
people killed and maimed on nearly every voyage.

There was widespread violence, but this was during the Great Depression and 
most of the violence was practiced by anti-union goons working for 
management. For example, they caught one of my dad's friends, held him on 
the ground with his legs over the curb, and then a 300-pound good jumped up 
and down and broke both his legs in several places. The man never really 
recovered. As I said, the wealthy shipowners were guilty of this -- not the 
social class you would indict.

Furthermore, evolution takes much longer than you think, and changes in 
occupation and movements through society occur much too rapidly to allow 
people to stay in one social class or occupation for long enough to have 
any effect. People may well be thickset or stooped, but I am sure that is 
caused by diet and other environmental conditions. You can see dramatic 
proof in Japan, where the postwar generation body type (height, weight, 
shape) is entirely different from the pre-war body type, thanks to diet and 
medical care.


>Sincerely I believe that the 3rd world should exercise mild eugenics - marry
>off the clever and wealthy to create a middle class who would then go on to
>fill the professional and administrative jobs. The middle class make a
>society work.

In Africa, the professional and administrative classes constitute the 
world's largest kleptocracy. The best method of eugenics would be to drown 
them as pups.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep  8 09:06:14 2005
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From: OrionWorks <orionworks charter.net>
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Subject: RE: YK2, gurus, economics, mild eugenics.
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> From: R.O.Cornwall

...

> Jed,
> On education: You can take the child out of the ghetto
> but can you take out the ghetto out of the child...
> 
> This is controversial but hey, we like that stuff on Vo.
> Humans are subject to the laws of genetics as other 
> animals: if I look at people around Deptford in SE London
> I see many descendants of dock workers - they are
> thickset and none too bright (and violent). If I see
> descendants of plantation slaves (as opposed to house
> slaves), they too are thickset and thick.
> 
> Sincerely I believe that the 3rd world should exercise
> mild eugenics - marry off the clever and wealthy to
> create a middle class who would then go on to
> fill the professional and administrative jobs. The
> middle class make a society work.
> 
> In societies with old cultures and religions they simply
> excel academically
> - Jews, Chinese, Koreans, Japanese and Asians.
> 
> This is not PC but I advocate tough love.
> Remi.


I might be wrong on who the author is but I believe Carl Sandburg was responsible for writing the following simple poem:

He who knows not, and knows not that he knows not,
He is a fool.
Shun him.

He who knows not, and knows that he knows not,
He is simple.
Teach him.

He who knows, and knows not that he knows,
He is asleep.
Wake him.

He who knows, and knows that he knows,
He is wise.
Follow him.


After reading your recent comments I might suggest that you consider very carefully where such opinions might fit in with Mr. Sandburg's poem.

Hint: It is wise not to advocate anything that you would not be willing to be subjected to yourself, including any judgments the state might make concerning the value of your genetic heritage.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep  8 09:15:38 2005
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FWIW, Jed.
A couple of items.
1, Biomass char is an excellent carbon source for the production of iron.
This is
    why the British depleted their forests before they started mining coal
and colonizing the
    world.
2, Hydrogen produced from renewable energy can be used for reduction of CO2
     (brewery fermenters, combustion power plants and Portland cement
kilns) to synthesis gas:
    2 H2O + Energy --->  2 H2 + O2
   
    H2 + CO2 ---->  CO + H2O
   (n+x)H2 +  nCO   is/can be made into about any petrochemical. Viz
Mobil's ZSM-5
    Catalyst.

Frederick
> [Original Message]
> From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
> To: <vortex-L eskimo.com>
> Date: 9/8/05 10:00:39 AM
> Subject: Re: eliminating oil
>
> Wesley Bruce wrote:
>
> >We wont totally eliminate oil. There will always be car enthusiasts.
>
> That's what I said in my book, in chapter 17. I am a step ahead of you!
>
> We will also need oil for plastics and other synthetic materials. Today, 
> roughly 20% of oil is used for such "non-fuel" applications. However, I 
> expect it will be safer and cheaper to synthesize oil on site from
garbage 
> rather than to dig it out of the ground and transport it long distances. 
> Garbage-to-oil systems are already in use and they are economical when
you 
> take into account the money it would cost to dispose of the garbage by 
> conventional methods. See chapter 13. In the more distant future it will
be 
> cheaper to synthesize oil from air and water.
>
> The remaining antique gasoline powered automobiles will also be powered
by 
> synthetic fuel.
>
>
> >Coal will survive to because its used for coke based steel making.
> >  Yet only the cleanest most efficiently mined coal will survive.
>
> That is true. You need to add carbon to the iron to make steel. However,
in 
> the long term I think this coal will also be synthetic. That is, it will
be 
> made from existing, aboveground sources of carbon such as garbage or
carbon 
> removed from the dioxide in the atmosphere. Given unlimited amounts of 
> energy I think this would be safer and cheaper than mining coal. Of
course 
> underground mining will be done almost exclusively with robots. Strip 
> mining is reasonably safe but it is environmentally destructive.
>
> Oil and coal made from carbon dioxide might remain more expensive than 
> conventional materials, but people may use them anyway, to help reverse 
> global warming. The government might subsidize steel and chemical
companies 
> to encourage the use of atmospheric carbon rather than underground
sources 
> of carbon. Existing above ground sources such as old newspapers or
garbage 
> would be fine, since they do not contribute to global warming, as Craig 
> Haynie pointed out.
>
> You can extract carbon from the atmosphere with conventional biological 
> techniques of course, with quick growing plants or algae, but I think 
> ultimately some sort of brute force industrial method will become more 
> common. I suppose it would be faster and take a much less space. Nitrogen 
> is removed from the atmosphere with high heat from electric arcs, I 
> believe. Also with "caustic soda to remove CO2" followed by heated copper 
> to remove oxygen. I do not know how you would go about breaking CO2 
> molecules to reverse combustion, but there must be a way.
>
> - Jed
>



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Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 12:29:36 -0500
From: Harry Veeder <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: My comments on Intelligent Design
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OrionWorks wrote:

>> From: thomas malloy
> 
>> Parksie was up to his usual shtick. IMHO, you have to be
>> blind in order to miss that the biological mechanism is
>> just a container for the soul. Consequently a Chimp may
>> share 99% of it's DNA with us, but it lacks the thing
>> which makes us human, a soul. This is the same mentality
>> which labels the DNA whose function they don't
>> understand, junk. IMHO, Parksie has less understanding
>> about life than a pig has about Easter.

> 
> Here we go again...I fear.
> 
> Regarding who is in possession of "souls", I can't let this pass without
> comment.
> 
> Extensive research has been put into analyzing the conscious awareness of
> primates like chimpanzees and gorillas. The final analysis: As much as it
> might disturb certain humans to consider, experiments indicate there really
> isn't much difference between their perceived sense of self and our own.
> 
> Place a mirror in front of a chimpanzee or gorilla and soon they will start
> doing things like making gestures into the mirror, or more telling, picking
> the tarter off their teeth. This indicates clearly that these primates have a
> clear conceptual sense of "self", that they recognize the fact that they are
> seeing themselves in the mirror.
> 
> Meanwhile, similar experiments have been performed with the lower primates and
> they never get it. They never recognize the fact that the monkey they see in
> the mirror is in reality themselves. They will do things like look behind the
> mirror hoping to find the source of the image.

I doubt the mirror test is a good test of self-awareness...unless
self-awareness is nothing more than the ability to recognise an image of
one's own face. I suspect it is possible for an individual to have some
brain damage which makes it impossible for him to spot himself in an image.
Would we conclude he has no self-awareness? Such a condition would resemble
the condition of the man who mistook his wife for a hat.

Anyway, as the superior species, I think we have to presume every animal
have a sense of self until we know otherwise.

Harry

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Subject: Katrina response insanity
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BlankGeraldo interviews  storm victims at the convention center that say =
they have had nothing to drink in 5 days which is a modern day  miracle  =
considering.

WE see the deployment of 12 drone mini planes contracted to survey =
damage.
School busses lay in water, boats prohibited for use in rescue while =
expensive heliocopters are used to rescue one at a time from rooftops. =
Fuel guzzling army transports carrying supplies while pickup truck are =
parked along the way. A third on the police force deserting.
Just when we needed him most, an ebonics speaking general cussed his way =
onto the scene to direct things screaming..those shots fired are not =
from snipers and thats not looting. The TV reporter suggested he run for =
president. The mayor and governor held a televised pissing contest to =
show nobody was in charge while Rome burned.

Meanwhile back at the ranch, flood waters are being slowly pumped out =
with the explanation they cant use the big pump because it may overtax =
the levee. The state EPA director says the wastewater will pollute the =
lake and river but can't be helped because there is no time to disinfect =
the water. When contacting FEMA in Dallas last Tuesday, the next day =
after ,advising we have the equipment ready to ship to treat the storm =
water. What was FEMA's response.. The lady answering the phone in Dallas =
.. said  we won't give you our fax number..dont you know we have an =
emergency in New Orleans,, give me your number and I'll have someone =
call you.... don't hold your breath.
 No wonder the government had to hire Halliburton to run a war in Iraq.
In Houston , the mayor ,Bill White and the county judge, Bob Echols =
demonstrated how the professionals do things by getting out in front of =
the problems. No waiting lines at the Dome, they had volunteers go out =
to the busses and walk them in.=20
The evaucees were NOT required to give their names and ID's because it =
may embarrass them with outstanding criminal warrants. This is making it =
difficult to match separated families and children elsewhere. Each get a =
$ 2000.oo debit card for free.
A Texas card in lieu of food stamps and a ride to the welfare office and =
social security.
Wha has been the response by the black community ? racism.=20
No where but the US of A could it happen in real life moreso than =
Hollywood. Why is truth stranger than fiction ? Simple, my dear Watson.. =
truth is simply unbelievable !!

Richard




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while=20
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from=20
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<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep  8 09:56:54 2005
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Hi Michael.

That "K" size cylinder of obsolete SO2 was a freebie from a refrigerant
dealer.

I'm still around even after reading up on dynamiting a bunch of stumps from
centuries-old cottonwoods in order to save the $85.00 a local octogenarian
wanted for bulldozing them out.
Before proceeding I contacted near neighbors and set off three sticks
in a clump of salt cedars at the far end of the field. A three-foot fuse
seemed like forever
and just as it went off, there was a pickup truck passing on the road about
300 feet beyond the
irrigation canal out of sight of the blast. The driver stopped and got out
to stare up at the sky to see what was going on.
The neighbors said no problem, and I worked my buns off for two days with
no problems other on one of the first shots as I was hiding behind a nearby
tree I heard something
falling down toward my head through the dry leaves and cringed in terror.
It was a
girlie magazine the neighbor boy had hid up in the tree.

The bottom line:
The two closest neighbors suddenly discovered and complained about hairline
cracks in their plaster. My homeowner's policy covered the $2,500 damages
because my insurance
agent said it would cost more to prove that the cracks were already there.

I'm retired now.  :-)

Frederick




> [Original Message]
> From: Michael Foster <michael.foster excite.com>
> To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> Date: 9/8/05 10:42:25 AM
> Subject: Re: O. T. Gopher War Saga
>
>
> And here I thought I was the only one to have the
> "SO2 experience".  When I was about 12 years old,
> I was hired by the local slumlord to fix all the
> refrigerators in his crumbling awful apartment
> buildings.  These babies were really old and mostly
> had ammonia refrigerant, probably illegal, even back
> then.  I got an ammonia cylinder to bleed and back-
> fill the damn things. Fortunately, most of the problems
> with these units were electrical, but occasionally I
> was faced with having to deal with the ammonia.
>
> I would open all the doors and windows of the apartment
> and set to work.  One of these ancient refrigerators,
> however, had an SO2 filled system and the damn thing
> practically exploded on me.  The SO2 poured out of the
> apartment window like a waterfall and spread over the
> lawn in a low heavy mist.  Within minutes the lawn was
> bleached white.
>
> My slumlord employer fired me since I had ruined his
> lawn, the only thing he seemed to maintain in his
> disgusting apartments.  A few days later, the lawn
> recovered, looking better than ever.  The guy then tried
> to hire me back.  I said, "No thanks."
>
> BTW, Fred, glad you're still with us after nearly being
> run over by an atom bomb.
>
> M.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
> The most personalized portal on the Web!
>



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Frederick Sparber wrote:

>FWIW, Jed.
>A couple of items.
>1, Biomass char is an excellent carbon source for the production of iron.
>This is
>     why the British depleted their forests before they started mining coal

Yeah, I thought of that. But would there be enough wood to replace coal in 
this application? Maybe so. Steel production from raw materials it not all 
that big, and in my Futureworld projection I have them growing huge new 
forests.


>2, Hydrogen produced from renewable energy can be used for reduction of CO2
>      (brewery fermenters, combustion power plants and Portland cement
>kilns) to synthesis gas:
>     2 H2O + Energy --->  2 H2 + O2
>
>     H2 + CO2 ---->  CO + H2O
>    (n+x)H2 +  nCO   is/can be made into about any petrochemical.

Ah, thanks. So the only energy input is in the first stage electrolysis?

I doubt that tenewable energy such as wind would be economical for this, 
but CF or ZPE surely  would be.

I assume this would take up much less space than biological methods.

- Jed


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Jed wrote:
>
> Frederick Sparber wrote:
>
> >FWIW, Jed.
> >A couple of items.
> >1, Biomass char is an excellent carbon source for the production of iron.
> >This is
> >     why the British depleted their forests before they started mining
coal
>
> Yeah, I thought of that. But would there be enough wood to replace coal
in 
> this application? Maybe so. Steel production from raw materials it not
all 
> that big, and in my Futureworld projection I have them growing huge new 
> forests.
>
Any fast-growing non-woody cellulosic plant (such as Miscanthus or Bamboo)
will make good char.
Newsprint (cellulose) char is a case in point.
>
> >2, Hydrogen produced from renewable energy can be used for reduction of
CO2
> >      (brewery fermenters, combustion power plants and Portland cement
> >kilns) to synthesis gas:
> >     2 H2O + Energy --->  2 H2 + O2
> >
> >     H2 + CO2 ---->  CO + H2O
> >    (n+x)H2 +  nCO   is/can be made into about any petrochemical.
>
> Ah, thanks. So the only energy input is in the first stage electrolysis?
>
You're welcome. That's about all the energy input needed the rest are
exothermic reactions.
>
> I doubt that tenewable energy such as wind would be economical for this, 
> but CF or ZPE surely  would be.
>
> I assume this would take up much less space than biological methods.
>
We made great char from feedlot manure, but it's a bit odiferous during the
charring step. :-)

Frederick
> - Jed
>



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Steven Johnson posted

In my book: Recognizing one's "self" is to recognize the existence of 
one's soul. The fact that they may not be capable of reading Hebrew 
is a trivial factor in the greater scheme of things.

I can't read Hebrew either.

I can't make the leap from recognizing one's self and the recognition 
of a soul.

My point about Hebrew was that there is a correlation between reading 
and Hebrew and intellectual ability. Learning to do it is quite a 
challenge.

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> From: thomas malloy 
> 
> Steven Johnson posted
> 
> > In my book: Recognizing one's "self" is to recognize
> > the existence of one's soul. The fact that they may
> > not be capable of reading Hebrew is a trivial factor
> > in the greater scheme of things.
> >
> > I can't read Hebrew either.
> 
> I can't make the leap from recognizing one's self and
> the recognition of a soul.

Yes, that much is obvious.

> My point about Hebrew was that there is a correlation
> between reading and Hebrew and intellectual ability.
> Learning to do it is quite a challenge.

I have no doubt that learning to read Hebrew is a challange.

Let me try from a different angle, though I suspect it won't help.

There is a story told where one day in a primate lab where they taught a gorilla sign language, (I believe it was Koko), a visiting researcher stopped by to pay his regards. They introduced the eager researcher to Koko. He had some knowledge of sign language and attempted to carry on a conversation with Koko. It soon became clear however that the researcher's grasp of sign language was not as experienced as that of Koko or of the researchers who regularly communicated with Koko.

Koko grasped this problem and did what any creature possessing empathy would do under the circumstances. She deliberately slowed down the execution of her use of sign language in an attempt to help the researcher keep up with her thoughts.

In my book, empathy is another aspect of one of g-d's creatures possessing a soul.

I don't know sign language either. Apologies to Koko.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

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http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/09/07/BUG9NEJD3L1.DTL

Magnetic energy? Perhaps

David Lazarus

Wednesday, September 7, 2005

Smaller businesses can tailor a job to needs of desirable candidates

The nation's energy industry is struggling to recover from Hurricane Katrina. Gas prices are soaring as a result of the catastrophic storm. America's reliance on overseas oil increases every year.

And from his office in the North Bay city of Sebastopol, Mark Goldes envisions a day -- perhaps not so far off -- when none of this will be a problem.

Goldes, 73, is chief executive of a small company called Magnetic Power Inc., which has spent years researching ways to, yes, generate power using magnets.

Within a few months, he says, he might just have a breakthrough to report that could revolutionize where people get fuel. 

<more>

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http://www.thenewstribune.com/24hour/healthscience/story/2694642p-11241051c.html

Controversy swirls around wind farm plan

The Associated Press
Wednesday, September 7th, 2005 06:21 AM (PDT)
LANCASTER, Calif. (AP) - An energy company wants to build 130 wind turbines, each taller than the Statue of Liberty, near a nature reserve to provide power to tens of thousands of homes.

But locals complain the project would block views of the Antelope Valley California Poppy Preserve, and some environmentalists fear the 380-foot machines would chop up birds and disrupt wildlife migration.

<more>

(I like chopped bird!)

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Jed wrote:

> We will also need oil for plastics and
> other synthetic materials. Today, 
> roughly 20% of oil is used for such "non-
> fuel" applications. However, I expect it 
> will be safer and cheaper to synthesize 
> oil on site from garbage rather than to 
> dig it out of the ground and transport it
> long distances. Garbage-to-oil systems
> are already in use and they are 
> economical when you take into account 
> the money it would cost to dispose of the
> garbage by conventional methods. See
> chapter 13. In the more distant future it 
> will be cheaper to synthesize oil from air
> and water.

You're probably right about this in the long
term.  Meanwhile, using oil as fuel for heating,
air conditioning, and transportation is not
unlike burning the furniture to keep warm.

M. 

_______________________________________________
Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
The most personalized portal on the Web!


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I sent this letter to Pat Bailey.

Dear Pat;

I mentioned your book review on Vortex-L. I was quite under whelmed 
by the one response that I got, one request for a copy of it. I 
reviewed the review and posted it again, with basically the same 
response.  I sent a copy of my review to Hal Puthoff, he responded 
that Earth Tech had experimented with discharging capacitors through 
a spark gap, they were unable to detect any energy gain. I asked him 
if he had ever seen a circuit get cold and he responded that he had 
not.

I wouldn't have given any credence to this matter except for Sparky 
Sweet's claims, and Roger Hastings observations of the Newman Motor. 
You indicated that you know of an investor who is interested in cold 
electricity. Investment capital is in short enough supply as it is, 
with out wasting it on this sort of nonsense.

If your investor is interested in exploring the phenomena, I would 
caution him. IMHO, people like Dr. Lindemann muddy the waters by 
repeating unsubstantiated stories. IMHO, anyone with a scientific 
doctorate after their name, has an obligation to the readers of their 
book to replicate the results that they write about, before giving 
them the creditability which publication engenders.

Given your penchant for fever swamp conspiracy theories, I assume 
that you heard about the man who was interviewed on C to C AM during 
the Katrina event. He contends that someone, the Russians perhaps, 
either engineered the hurricane, or steered it into New Orleans. I'd 
tell you more about what he said, but I refuse to listen to guests 
who prattle on about things that I believe to be pure nonsense. IMHO, 
there is only one entity who can do that, Yahweh (Jehovah).

I've heard another guest talk about steering hurricanes with a large 
solar power station feeding a microwave generator. Can you imagine 
the liability insurance policy on something like that?


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Phillip Stell, professor emeritus wrote an article in which he makes 
the case that the Darwinian paradigm is not useful as a heuristic in 
formulating research which results in biological breakthroughs. I 
gave it a 5. Take that Parksie! 
http://www.the-scientist.com/2005/8/29/10/1

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IMHO, the idea of our eliminating oil use is an idea worthy of Analog 
or Amazing Stories.

I listened to Matt, the author of this website, interviewed on C to C 
AM. He contends that the fractional banking system and by extension 
the American economy is being kept afloat by oil production. Suddenly 
the dead inventors, and the missing inventions makes sense.

www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net

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thomas malloy wrote:

> IMHO, the idea of our eliminating oil use is an idea worthy of Analog 
> or Amazing Stories.
>
> I listened to Matt, the author of this website, interviewed on C to C 
> AM. He contends that the fractional banking system and by extension 
> the American economy is being kept afloat by oil production. Suddenly 
> the dead inventors, and the missing inventions makes sense.
>
> www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net
>
It would make a great coo if we could publish a fiction outlining  the 
mayhem when a CF type power technology turns out to be real and the 
politicians turn on their science advisers with vengeance in mind. " The 
last days of the National Science Academy". How about it Jeff?

It would be a greater coo if we could simply get a couple of working 
cells and add a thermoelectric generator, close the circle and crack 
energy world wide open!

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I found this article rather interesting and a 
bit scary.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4681935.stm

   ========================================
   Sudden revisions 

   One of the main reasons is that in the 
   1980s OPEC decided to switch to a quota 
   production system based on the size of 
   reserves. 

   The larger the reserves a country said 
   it had the more it could pump. 

   The more it could pump the more money 
   it could make. 

   As a result in 1985 Kuwait revised 
   its reserve estimates by 50% overnight. 

   It was soon followed by United Arab 
   Emirates, Iran, and Iraq. In 1988 
   Saudi Arabia became the last to join 
   the revised reserve estimates party, 
   adding a whopping 88bn barrels.
   ========================================

When reality eventually kicks in things are 
likely to become rather exciting.   8-)

FG


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Perhaps this could help fund Bush's war in Iraq?

http://www.louisianapurchase2003.com/history/overview/negotiation.htm

Louisiana Purchase Negotiations

"Early negotiations by Robert R. Livingston to purchase New Orleans failed. However, when Napoleon lost of control over Haiti and was in dire need of funds to support his war effort against Britain in Europe, a window of opportunity opened.

James Monroe was sent to Paris and the American negotiators were authorized to spend up to $2 million for New Orleans and adjacent land. They were surprised when Napoléon offered them a much bigger deal – the entire French controlled North American Territory for $15 million.

Although not authorized to make such a large purchase, Robert Livingston and James Monroe took a chance, overstepped their orders, and accepted the offer of the entire Louisiana Territory. Final negotiations were carried out with the Marquis de Barbé Marbois, Napoleon's minister of the treasury."

"The land purchased eventually made all or part of fifteen American states: Louisiana, Arkansas, Missouri, Iowa, North Dakota, Texas, South Dakota, New Mexico, Nebraska, Kansas, Wyoming, Minnesota, Oklahoma, Colorado and Montana."
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<HTML style="FONT-SIZE: x-small; FONT-FAMILY: MS Sans Serif"><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=windows-1251">
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<BODY>
<P>
<DIV>Perhaps this could help fund&nbsp;Bush's war in Iraq?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://www.louisianapurchase2003.com/history/overview/negotiation.htm">http://www.louisianapurchase2003.com/history/overview/negotiation.htm</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Louisiana Purchase Negotiations</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>"Early negotiations by Robert R. Livingston to purchase New Orleans failed. However, when Napoleon lost of control over Haiti and was in dire need of funds to support his war effort against Britain in Europe, a window of opportunity opened.<BR><BR>James Monroe was sent to Paris and the American negotiators were authorized to spend up to $2 million for New Orleans and adjacent land. They were surprised when Napoléon offered them a much bigger deal – the entire French controlled North American Territory for $15 million.<BR><BR>Although not authorized to make such a large purchase, Robert Livingston and James Monroe took a chance, overstepped their orders, and accepted the offer of the entire Louisiana Territory. Final negotiations were carried out with the Marquis de Barbé Marbois, Napoleon's minister of the treasury."</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>"The land purchased eventually made all or part of fifteen American states: Louisiana, Arkansas, Missouri, Iowa, North Dakota, Texas, South Dakota, New Mexico, Nebraska, Kansas, Wyoming, Minnesota, Oklahoma, Colorado and Montana."</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<P></P></BODY></HTML>
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Focus Factor helps too.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20050909/BRAIN09/TPScience/

" Humans may be the brightest species on Earth, but provocative new research has concluded our brain has not yet reached its final form. 
Scientists at the University of Chicago have found that two human genes involved in brain size and development are still evolving -- and, they suspect, mutating to make people smarter. "

"The team is so sure of its hunch that it has patented the genes with plans to develop tests to identify those who carry these potentially brain-boosting traits -- which appear to be more prevalent in some populations than others."

Do they lurk on the vortex list, Bill?   :-)

Frederick
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<DIV>Focus Factor helps too.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20050909/BRAIN09/TPScience/">http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20050909/BRAIN09/TPScience/</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>" Humans may be the brightest species on Earth, but provocative new research has concluded our brain has not yet reached its final form. </DIV>
<DIV>Scientists at the University of Chicago have found that two human genes involved in brain size and development are still evolving -- and, they suspect, mutating to make people smarter. "</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>"The team is so sure of its hunch that it has patented the genes with plans to develop tests to identify those who carry these potentially brain-boosting traits -- which appear to be more prevalent in some populations than others."</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Do they lurk on the vortex list, Bill?&nbsp;&nbsp; :-)</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Frederick</DIV></BODY></HTML>
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BlankFred wrote..
James Monroe was sent to Paris and the American negotiators were =
authorized to spend up to $2 million for New Orleans and adjacent land. =
They were surprised when Napol=E9on offered them a much bigger deal =96 =
the entire French controlled North American Territory for $15 million.

Although not authorized to make such a large purchase, Robert Livingston =
and James Monroe took a chance, overstepped their orders, and accepted =
the offer of the entire Louisiana Territory. Final negotiations were =
carried out with the Marquis de Barb=E9 Marbois, Napoleon's minister of =
the treasury."

"The land purchased eventually made all or part of fifteen American =
states: Louisiana, Arkansas, Missouri, Iowa, North Dakota, Texas, South =
Dakota, New Mexico, Nebraska, Kansas, Wyoming, Minnesota, Oklahoma, =
Colorado and Montana."


=20

All part of the grand scheme of things described as  " manifest =
destiny", where the cowards never started and the weak died on the way. =
Actually the Louisana purchase and the Texas independence (converted =
into statehood by one of the slickest of the slick , Andrew Jackson)  =
wasn't actually set in stone until the Gasden purchase. There were bold =
politicos in those days. The design was for the entire north american =
continent but as the years went by the succeeding crop of politicos =
learned money does not grow on trees , land ownership was taxable, and =
who controlled the bank, controlled the casino.

Alas, the strong take it away from the weak, the smart take it away from =
the strong , the banks take it  away from their heirs,  and the =
politicos squander it. The cycle used to take two hundred years. That =
process has now been reworked to a single generation. Peak oil will call =
for an entire new deck of cards. Since it is impossble to determine what =
players will cheat given the opportunity, it is best for the house to =
mark the cards. The house meaning the individual, should one understand =
the rules of the great game. Get your free $ 2,000.00 debit  card at =
your local FEMA service station. Keep your bicycle tires inflated.

Richard
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<DIV>Fred wrote..</DIV>
<P>James Monroe was sent to Paris and the American negotiators were =
authorized=20
to spend up to $2 million for New Orleans and adjacent land. They were =
surprised=20
when Napol=E9on offered them a much bigger deal =96 the entire French =
controlled=20
North American Territory for $15 million.<BR><BR>Although not authorized =
to make=20
such a large purchase, Robert Livingston and James Monroe took a chance, =

overstepped their orders, and accepted the offer of the entire Louisiana =

Territory. Final negotiations were carried out with the Marquis de =
Barb=E9=20
Marbois, Napoleon's minister of the treasury."</P>
<P>"The land purchased eventually made all or part of fifteen American =
states:=20
Louisiana, Arkansas, Missouri, Iowa, North Dakota, Texas, South Dakota, =
New=20
Mexico, Nebraska, Kansas, Wyoming, Minnesota, Oklahoma, Colorado and=20
Montana."</P>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>All part of the grand scheme of things described as&nbsp; " =
manifest=20
destiny", where the cowards never started and the weak died on the=20
way.&nbsp;Actually the Louisana purchase and the Texas independence =
(converted=20
into statehood by one of the slickest of the slick , Andrew =
Jackson)&nbsp;=20
wasn't actually set in stone until the Gasden purchase. There were bold=20
politicos in those days. The design was for the entire north american =
continent=20
but as the years went by the succeeding crop of politicos learned money =
does not=20
grow on trees , land ownership was taxable, and who controlled the bank, =

controlled the casino.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Alas, the strong take it away from the weak, the smart take it away =
from=20
the strong , the banks take it&nbsp; away from their heirs,&nbsp; and =
the=20
politicos squander it. The cycle used to take two hundred years. That =
process=20
has now been reworked to a single generation. Peak oil will call for an =
entire=20
new deck of cards. Since it is impossble to determine what players will =
cheat=20
given the opportunity, it is best for the house to mark the cards. The =
house=20
meaning the individual, should one understand the rules of the great =
game. Get=20
your free $ 2,000.00&nbsp;debit &nbsp;card at your local FEMA service =
station.=20
Keep your bicycle tires inflated.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Richard</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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According these 1783 and 1803 maps it looks like Napoleon might have
sold Monroe & Livingston part  of the bridge over the East River too. 

I've always thought it belonged to Keith.  :-)

http://medicolegal.tripod.com/mapsus.htm

Frederick

Richard Macaulay wrote:
All part of the grand scheme of things described as  " manifest destiny", where the cowards never started and the weak died on the way. Actually the Louisiana purchase and the Texas independence (converted into statehood by one of the slickest of the slick , Andrew Jackson)  wasn't actually set in stone until the Gasden purchase. There were bold politicos in those days. The design was for the entire north American continent but as the years went by the succeeding crop of politicos learned money does not grow on trees , land ownership was taxable, and who controlled the bank, controlled the casino.

Alas, the strong take it away from the weak, the smart take it away from the strong , the banks take it  away from their heirs,  and the politicos squander it. The cycle used to take two hundred years. That process has now been reworked to a single generation. Peak oil will call for an entire new deck of cards. Since it is impossible to determine what players will cheat given the opportunity, it is best for the house to mark the cards. The house meaning the individual, should one understand the rules of the great game. Get your free $ 2,000.00 debit  card at your local FEMA service station. Keep your bicycle tires inflated.

Richard
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<BODY id=ridBody bgColor=#ffffff background="Blank Bkgrd.gif" <DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>
<DIV>According these 1783 and 1803 maps it looks like Napoleon might have</DIV>
<DIV>sold Monroe &amp; Livingston part&nbsp; of the bridge over the East River too.&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>I've always&nbsp;thought it belonged to Keith.&nbsp; :-)</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://medicolegal.tripod.com/mapsus.htm">http://medicolegal.tripod.com/mapsus.htm</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Frederick</DIV></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Richard Macaulay wrote:</DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid">
<DIV>All part of the grand scheme of things described as&nbsp; " manifest destiny", where the cowards never started and the weak died on the way.&nbsp;Actually the Louisiana purchase and the Texas independence (converted into statehood by one of the slickest of the slick , Andrew Jackson)&nbsp; wasn't actually set in stone until the Gasden purchase. There were bold politicos in those days. The design was for the entire north American continent but as the years went by the succeeding crop of politicos learned money does not grow on trees , land ownership was taxable, and who controlled the bank, controlled the casino.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Alas, the strong take it away from the weak, the smart take it away from the strong , the banks take it&nbsp; away from their heirs,&nbsp; and the politicos squander it. The cycle used to take two hundred years. That process has now been reworked to a single generation. Peak oil will call for an entire new deck of cards. Since it is impossible to determine what players will cheat given the opportunity, it is best for the house to mark the cards. The house meaning the individual, should one understand the rules of the great game. Get your free $ 2,000.00&nbsp;debit &nbsp;card at your local FEMA service station. Keep your bicycle tires inflated.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Richard</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://medicolegal.tripod.com/mapsus.htm"></A>&nbsp;</DIV></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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BlankRichard,

"Alas, the strong take it away from the weak, the smart take it away =
from the strong , the banks take it  away from their heirs,  and the =
politicos squander it. The cycle used to take two hundred years. That =
process has now been reworked to a single generation."=20


....Classic observation... almost sounds like an episode from Dallas !
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charset=3Dwindows-1252"><BASE=20
href=3D"file://E:\Program Files\Common Files\Microsoft =
Shared\Stationery\">
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<DIV>Richard,</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>"Alas, the strong take it away from the weak, the smart take it =
away from=20
the strong , the banks take it&nbsp; away from their heirs,&nbsp; and =
the=20
politicos squander it. The cycle used to take two hundred years. That =
process=20
has now been reworked to a single generation." </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>....Classic observation... almost sounds like an episode from=20
Dallas&nbsp;!</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep  9 09:14:56 2005
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I updated this paper slightly, adding a photograph of the equipment. You 
can see the photo here:

http://lenr-canr.org/Experiments.htm#PhotosPClauzon

The paper is still here:

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/FauvarqueJabnormalex.pdf

The only change is the photo.

- Jed 


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This may seem a little off topic, but bear with me; it is relevant.

In my essay about "The Titanic the Internet and Cold Fusion" I described 
how people hang on to initial impressions formed soon after a major news 
event. Facts revealed later are often ignored. Yesterday, I spoke for a 
long time to a reporter from Salt Lake City, who called me for an update on 
cold fusion. His information and his impressions seemed to be based 
entirely on news reports from 1989. It was like talking to a time traveler.

Many of the news stories that circulated during the Katrina disaster were 
false -- some egregiously false. This is not anyone's fault. During an 
event of this nature, rumors fly, and reports are distorted and 
exaggerated. This is unavoidable, but a journalist or historian should be 
very careful to take the stories with a grain of salt, and to go back and 
re-examine the claims later on. Beware of jumping to conclusions.

Here is one example of what I mean. As everyone now knows, during the 
disaster, tens of thousands of people were crowded into two refugee centers 
within the city, the Dome and the Convention Center. During the event, 
there were repeated news reports of violent chaos within these centers. 
Gangs were supposedly rampaging through the centers; murders and rapes were 
being committed openly; the police were "retreating" every night; and there 
were no national guardsmen on duty there. This seemed extremely unlikely to 
me. It reminded me of the claims that when the survivors of the Titanic 
were taken aboard the Carpathia, many were hysterical with grief, and 
uncontrollable. In point of fact, crowds of people in a situation like this 
usually behave in an exemplary manner. Crowds are also usually self 
organizing, and most individuals are too exhausted to make trouble. (By 
"self organizing" I mean, for example, that ~80% of rescues are performed 
by civilians, usually neighbors or friends. This has been shown in the US, 
Japan and China, for earthquakes, fire, floods and other natural disasters.)

I have scoured news reports and watched interviews on CNN with people were 
in these centers, and with police officers who were assigned to the 
centers, both white and black, in case racial stereotypes cause any of 
these stories to circulate. All sources agree on the following:

1. Conditions were miserable and the crowds were upset, of course, but they 
remained orderly, and self-organizing.

2. The police were present in the centers at all times, along with at least 
a hundred national guardsmen. A policeman did say that he had to "sleep 
with one eye open" to crack down on troublemakers quickly.

3. Few crimes were committed. No murders were reported and no corpses 
found, except for people who obviously died of natural causes. No rapes 
were reported, and no one has come forth after the event to report one. Two 
attempted rapes were reported, and the suspects were arrested immediately 
by police officers. The officer in charge of the Convention Center happened 
to be the head of the Sex Crimes Division, so he knows a rape when he sees 
one, as he bluntly put it.

It is possible that these police officers are lying, but it seems unlikely 
that the civilians who confirmed their accounts would cover up for them.

- Jed


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> [Original Message]
> From: What's New <whatsnew BOBPARK.ORG>
 To: <BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW LISTSERV.UMD.EDU>
 Date: 9/9/2005 1:32:29 PM
 Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday September 9, 2005

 WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 9 Sep 05   Washington, DC

 1. KATRINA: THE COST OF THE HURRICANE RECOVERY KEEPS GROWING. 
 The New York Times today estimated the recovery costs at more
 than $100B.  So far, Congress has approved $51.8B in spending. 
 Meanwhile, there have been huge tax cuts for some of us.  So the
 focus of today's What's New is on unanticipated expenditures.

 2. ZERO-POINT ENERGY: KATRINA REVIVES A STRUGGLING INDUSTRY.  
 Even as gas approaches the price of bottled water, Katrina has
 cut oil production in the Gulf and shut down key ports.  Drilling
 in the ANWAR faces a key vote, and the President has ordered oil
 released from the strategic reserve.  So where is the free-energy
 industry?  Right on schedule.  The San Francisco Chronicle had a
 rather skeptical article in the business section this week about
 a "clean, inexhaustible energy source."  However, we don't do
 perpetual-motion in the 21st Century.  Nowadays we tap zero-point
 energy http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN02/wn080202.html, and
 Magnetic Power Inc says it's "on the verge" of it.  "We are still
 having trouble making it repeatable," the CEO said. "All we know
 is that we're seeing more energy output than input, what else
 could it be?"  Is this sounding vaguely familiar?  The Air Force
 sank $600,000 in the company.  Last year, the AF was investing in
 teleportation http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN04/wn102904.html. 
 Any time now we can expect to hear new claims for cold fusion.  

 3. HYDROGEN ECONOMY: "NEW CATALYST PRODUCES HYDROGEN FROM WATER."
 Well, not exactly.  The prospect of a hydrogen economy hinges on
 the ability to produce hydrogen economically.  Thirty years ago,
 an inventor named Sam Leach claimed to have invented a car that
 ran on water.  He said it used a secret catalyst to dissociate
 water.  That would be thermodynamically impossible.  But a brief
 report in Scientific American last week implied a new rhenium
 catalyst might dissociate water.  It was based on an article in
 the Journal of the American Chemical Society, but the title of
 the story in SA was misleading.  The hydrogen was from catalytic
 oxidation of organosilanes.  Cars still won't run on water.

 4. MISSILE DEFENSE: WE DON'T SEEM TO HEAR MUCH ABOUT IT LATELY. 
 Maybe it's no longer needed; after all, the election is over.  A
 report from the General Accounting Office this week doesn't ask
 whether it works.  It didn't the last we heard 8 months ago,
 http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN05/wn021805.html.  GAO concludes
 that funds are needed to sustain the system to 2011.  Why sustain
 it?  In 1979, in Grand Forks, ND, a worthless missile defense
 system was turned off 24 hours after it was declared completed.  

 5. MARS: TESTING A FISSION-POWERED ROCKET ENGINE TO SEND HUMANS. 
 The problem is finding a place to test it here on Earth.  In the
 first test of a nuclear rocket engine in 1965, the exhaust was
 just aimed skyward.  NASA will not be allowed to vent to the
 atmosphere this time.  Design and operation of a Ground Test
 Facility capable of removing fission products from the exhaust is
 a major engineering project.  Why is it we're going to Mars?

 THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND.
 Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the
 University of Maryland, but they should be.
 ---
 Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.bobpark.org
 What's New is moving to a different listserver and our
 subscription process has changed. To change your subscription status
please visit this link:
 http://listserv.umd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=bobparks-whatsnew&A=1


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Hello all,

First of all, it turns out my family is fine, home undamaged. Most of =
the rest of the city of Ocean Springs, MS is destroyed, so recovery will =
take a long time. But they are surviving, and nicely.

This storm, the bit of an energy crisis we are having here (probably a =
taste of things to come) and all have led me to many days of deep =
thought on the matters of energy and such, and our future. I don't know =
that these things I am going to discuss will actually happen, but I hope =
they do. The optimist in me says "there is a chance."

1. We have to find and utilize an alternative to fossil fuels for =
automobiles. Hybrids are fine, for now, but overpriced for the average =
Joe. I will come back to that point later. We need something else, be it =
simple electric driven cars, to a hydrogen powered car. I think both are =
very viable, if we only research it seriously. And in the current =
petrocracy (who coined this term BTW?), this is not happening. Yes, =
there are a few $$$ here and there, but it is not being taken seriously. =
Maybe electric cars for the daily driver, and for the guys who like =
power and performance, give him a nonpolluting, cheaply fueled H2 =
burner. I think hydrogen will be very useful for air travel as well. So =
yes, I am in full favor of the hydrogen economy, but I want it done =
seriously, not just talked about like the Bush admin (and others before =
him) have done.

2. We need to begin massive programs for construction of wind farms, =
direct solar-to-electricity generator farms, solar and geothermal (heat =
pump) heating systems for homes, and later on orbital solar photovoltaic =
arrays. Will this cost a fortune? Yes. Can we afford it? We must. And =
yes, we can, if we can finance Gulf War II. Nuclear should be used to =
fill in the gaps, but we should strive to make the gaps as small as =
possible.

3. The entire design ideology behind the manufacture of personal =
automobiles must change, whether we want it to or not. These are hard =
times, and in hard times, hard decisions must be made. The only way to =
get a viable non (or very low) polluting vehicle utilizing an =
alternative fuel source to be available to the majority of the people in =
short order is to make it dirt cheap. NO power windows, power seats, =
Bose sound systems, electronic crap, etc. Make it all mechanical, =
analog, simple. Also, we can eliminate the very costly and ridiculously =
overcomplex emissions control systems from these vehicles, or at least =
highly simplify them. I would even suggest eliminating the antilock =
brake systems. Why? It will make it that much simpler and cheaper. Less =
safe? Not if you are a good driver. As a mechanic, I have seen some very =
bad things happen when antilock computers signal the hydraulic control =
unit to screw around with the wheels for no apparent reason when the =
driver is making speed down the interstate. It is a nice source of =
income for bodywork........ I have driven non-antilock brake cars all my =
life, and in the heavy snows of Buffalo NY. It is not hard to control =
the vehicle with some common sense. The cars that lose control the most =
often, have been in my experience, the SUV's, with their peculiar weight =
distribution. See below. Yes, we would lose many convenience, and =
perhaps a few "safety" features. But, you could put the "little guy" in =
it. This car should be available for a few $k. At first, maybe even give =
incentives for people to get these things. The money they will save =
afterwards will let it more than pay for itself, but many people might =
need a little help to get things started. Just make it damn simple, and =
that's it.

4. Insurance companies will most likely want to tack on a hefty set of =
extra penalties for the car I just listed above. This cannot be allowed. =
Does the federal government have the ability to step in and say "no, you =
WILL NOT charge these people more for buying these cars."....? I think =
it does. If we acknowledge the fact that we are in an emergency =
situation, and we are, just a slowly developing one, then I think =
stepping in and limiting the profiteering of the insurance companies =
will not seem so alien an idea.

5. Cease production of the big engined SUVs. Lets see the minivan make a =
comeback for those larger families. There is no reason why a 4.8l fuel =
injected SUV should get 12-16mpg, when I was able to modify the 5.0l =
carbureted motor in my old Chevy to get 26mpg on the highway. And I =
guarantee you, I could outrun any SUV out there. Its all jetting and =
timing, and a hell of a nice camshaft. Back to the SUV's, I routinely =
nearly get run over by these things, and most of them I see are only =
carrying one occupant: the driver. (Usually on a cellular phone, it =
seems.) I think people get these SUV's not because they have need for =
them, but because it has become a status symbol. To me it is a symbol as =
well, one of wasting too much on that which is not needed, while giving =
to little to that which needs it the most. The SUV's are by and large =
top heavy, and roll over easily. Nor are they safe in an accident....the =
frames under these things rust out in no time, and are very thin steel. =
The tanklike Caprice's of days gone by were far more sturdy than these =
beasts, but still the modern SUV weighs more. Why? Well, the frame is =
made of a lot thinner grade steel, but the whole shebang is much larger. =
Not to mention the frontal profile of these things....when you consider =
how much of the gas you use is expended overcoming air resistance, you =
begin to see why the lower profile passenger car makes sense, and the =
boxlike SUV is the loser.

6. Get around the naysayers like Park. I don't personally know that much =
about LENR/CANR, but what I have seen leads me to believe that, with so =
many people seeing something, that there is something going on. If there =
is even a chance that it could lead to breakthroughs, then it is truly =
insanity of a very high order to not investigate it immediately, and =
seriously. What you don't know CAN hurt you, so let us strive to know =
all we can about this phenomenon. It seems to me that if only a fraction =
of the funding currently spent on conventional (hot) fusion research, or =
any of the myriad other eaters of money were to be diverted to the =
serious study of LENR/CANR, that we would make great steps forward. I =
also place my money on the LENR/CANR guys precisely because they have =
had to do without funding for so long: they have had to improvise and =
figure out ways to do things that they could not afford to do any other =
way. In my experience, having to figure out ways to make do with what =
you have is a great way to sharpen your intellect. If this really works, =
and most importantly, can be made viable on the large scale, you can =
have your hydrogen planes/cars, your EV's, your dirt-cheap home heat for =
the winter, etc., with no problem at all. With so much to gain, if there =
is even a fraction of a percent chance of success, then this research =
MUST BE DONE.

Lastly, and to Jed in particular: I don't hold a position on the idea of =
global warming. I think that there is insufficient evidence that it is =
happening, or that if it is that it is being caused by our actions. =
HOWEVER; I do believe that we should move away from pollutive and =
limited fuel sources as quickly as possible, just as if there really =
were an imminent threat of environmental collapse. Why? First, we can =
become self reliant, and not be held prisoner by the whims of OPEC or =
the next big natural disaster. Second, there is only so much oil to get, =
and if it runs out before we switch over, then while I believe we can =
still pull ourselves back together and switch to alternatives, it will =
be a living hell for a long time. If we start now, this hell can be =
avoided. Third, regardless of the theory of global warming, I think it =
is safe to say that heavy pollution is certainly not good for the health =
of human beings. There is so much cancer nowadays, and there is a =
definite connection there. Fourth, alternatives are not limited in the =
way that oil/fossil fuels are. We would no longer be limited by the =
availability of oil deposits and production quotas for said; if we want =
more power, we just build more solar collector or satellites. This in =
turn will make energy cheaper for the consumer. Five, China is fast =
becoming a major competitor with the US for energy resources. If =
inexhaustible (well, for 4.5 billion more years) energy sources become =
widely available, we might be able to stave off an eventual war over =
resources. Jed, though I don't hold a position on global warming, I am =
with you on your quest for the alternative energy economy and for clean =
vehicles.

Me myself, this little minicrisis has scared me, and I think it should =
scare everyone. I am looking into some methods for improving the =
insulation in my residence, and for making some solar heat collectors to =
augment my natural-gas furnace. I have decided that I am not going to =
buy anything commercially manufactured. It will be all home made, in =
hopes that if I get something which works well, others with low or =
middle incomes like myself can make these systems for themselves, at low =
cost. I don't know if any of this will work out, but I will never know =
if I do not try. If nothing else, I will have learned, and have had a =
good time in the attempt.

Sorry this was so lengthy, and I hope it has made some sense...I am =
rather sick right now with a sinus infection, so for all I know, this =
was the least coherent post I've ever made.=20

--Kyle


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	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hello all,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>First of all, it turns out my family is =
fine, home=20
undamaged. Most of the rest of the city of Ocean Springs, MS is =
destroyed, so=20
recovery will take a long time. But they are surviving, and =
nicely.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>This storm, the bit of an energy crisis =
we are=20
having here (probably a taste of things to come) and all have led me to =
many=20
days of deep thought on the matters of energy and such, and our future. =
I don't=20
know that these things I am going to discuss will actually happen, but I =
hope=20
they do. The optimist in me says "there is a chance."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>1. We have to find and utilize an =
alternative to=20
fossil fuels for automobiles. Hybrids are fine, for now, but overpriced =
for the=20
average Joe. I will come back to that point later. We need something =
else, be it=20
simple electric driven cars, to a hydrogen powered car. I think both are =
very=20
viable, if we only research it seriously. And in the current petrocracy =
(who=20
coined this term BTW?), this is not happening. Yes, there are a few $$$ =
here and=20
there, but it is not being taken seriously. Maybe electric cars for the =
daily=20
driver, and for the guys who like power and performance, give him a=20
nonpolluting, cheaply fueled H2 burner. I think hydrogen will be very =
useful for=20
air travel as well. So yes, I am in full favor of the hydrogen economy, =
but I=20
want it done seriously, not just talked about like the Bush admin (and =
others=20
before him) have done.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>2. We need to begin massive programs =
for=20
construction of wind farms, direct solar-to-electricity generator farms, =
solar=20
and geothermal (heat pump) heating systems for homes, and later on =
orbital solar=20
photovoltaic arrays. Will this cost a fortune? Yes. Can we afford it? We =
must.=20
And yes, we can, if we can finance Gulf War II. Nuclear should be used =
to fill=20
in the gaps, but we should strive to make the gaps as small as=20
possible.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>3. The entire design ideology behind =
the=20
manufacture of personal automobiles must change, whether we want it to =
or not.=20
These are hard times, and in hard times, hard decisions must be made. =
The only=20
way to get a viable non (or very low) polluting vehicle utilizing an =
alternative=20
fuel source to be available to the majority of the people in short order =
is to=20
make it dirt cheap. NO power windows, power seats, Bose sound systems,=20
electronic crap, etc. Make it all mechanical, analog, simple. Also, we =
can=20
eliminate the very costly and ridiculously overcomplex emissions control =
systems=20
from these vehicles, or at least highly simplify them. I would even =
suggest=20
eliminating the antilock brake systems. Why? It will make it that much =
simpler=20
and cheaper. Less safe? Not if you are a good driver. As a mechanic, I =
have seen=20
some very bad things happen when antilock computers signal the hydraulic =
control=20
unit to screw around with the wheels for no apparent reason when the =
driver is=20
making speed down the interstate. It is a nice source of income for=20
bodywork........ I have driven non-antilock brake cars all my life, and =
in the=20
heavy snows of Buffalo NY. It is not hard to control the vehicle with =
some=20
common sense. The cars that lose control the most often, have been in my =

experience, the SUV's, with their peculiar weight distribution. See =
below. Yes,=20
we would lose many convenience, and perhaps a few "safety" features. =
But, you=20
could put the "little guy" in it. This car should be available for a few =
$k. At=20
first, maybe even give incentives for people to get these things. The =
money they=20
will save afterwards will let it more than pay for itself, but many =
people=20
might&nbsp;need a little help to get things started. Just make it damn =
simple,=20
and that's it.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>4. Insurance companies will most likely =
want to=20
tack on a hefty set of extra penalties for the car I just listed above. =
This=20
cannot be allowed. Does the federal government have the ability to step =
in and=20
say "no, you WILL NOT charge these people more for buying these =
cars."....? I=20
think it does. If we acknowledge the fact that we are in an emergency =
situation,=20
and we are, just a slowly developing one, then I think stepping in and =
limiting=20
the profiteering of the insurance companies will not seem so alien an=20
idea.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>5. Cease production of the big engined =
SUVs. Lets=20
see the minivan make a comeback for those larger families. There is no =
reason=20
why a 4.8l fuel injected SUV should get 12-16mpg, when I was able to =
modify the=20
5.0l carbureted motor in my old Chevy to get 26mpg on the highway. And I =

guarantee you, I could outrun any SUV out there. Its all jetting and =
timing, and=20
a hell of a nice camshaft. Back to the SUV's, I routinely nearly get run =
over by=20
these things, and most of them I see are only carrying one occupant: the =
driver.=20
(Usually on a cellular phone, it seems.) I think people get these SUV's =
not=20
because they have need for them, but because it has become a status =
symbol. To=20
me it is a symbol as well, one of wasting too much on that which is not =
needed,=20
while giving to little to that which needs it the most. The SUV's are by =
and=20
large top heavy, and roll over easily. Nor are they safe in an =
accident....the=20
frames under these things rust out in no time, and are very thin steel. =
The=20
tanklike Caprice's of days gone by were far more sturdy than these =
beasts, but=20
still the modern SUV weighs more. Why? Well, the frame is made of a lot =
thinner=20
grade steel, but the whole shebang is much larger. Not to mention the =
frontal=20
profile of these things....when you consider how much of the gas you use =
is=20
expended overcoming air resistance, you begin to see why the lower =
profile=20
passenger car makes sense, and the boxlike SUV is the =
loser.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>6. Get around the naysayers like Park. =
I don't=20
personally know that much about LENR/CANR, but what I have seen leads me =
to=20
believe that, with so many people seeing something, that there is =
something=20
going on. If there is even a chance that it could lead to breakthroughs, =
then it=20
is truly insanity of a very high order to not investigate it =
immediately, and=20
seriously. What you don't know CAN hurt you, so let us strive to know =
all we can=20
about this phenomenon. It seems to me that if only a fraction of the =
funding=20
currently spent on conventional (hot) fusion research, or any of the =
myriad=20
other eaters of money were to be diverted to the serious study of =
LENR/CANR,=20
that we would make great steps forward. I also place my money on the =
LENR/CANR=20
guys precisely because they have had to do without funding for so long: =
they=20
have had to improvise and figure out ways to do things that they could =
not=20
afford to do any other way. In my experience, having to figure out ways =
to make=20
do with what you have is a great way to sharpen your intellect. If this =
really=20
works, and most importantly, can be made viable on the large scale, you =
can have=20
your hydrogen planes/cars, your EV's, your dirt-cheap home heat for the =
winter,=20
etc., with no problem at all.&nbsp;With so much to gain, if there is =
even a=20
fraction of a percent chance of success, then this research MUST BE=20
DONE.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Lastly, and to Jed in particular: I =
don't hold a=20
position on the idea of global warming. I think that there is =
insufficient=20
evidence that it is happening, or that if it is that it is being caused =
by our=20
actions. HOWEVER; I do believe that we should move away from pollutive =
and=20
limited fuel sources as quickly as possible, just as if there really =
were an=20
imminent threat of environmental collapse. Why? First, we can become =
self=20
reliant, and not be held prisoner by the whims of OPEC or the next big =
natural=20
disaster. Second, there is only so much oil to get, and if it runs out =
before we=20
switch over, then while I believe we can still pull ourselves back =
together and=20
switch to alternatives, it will be a living hell for a long time. If we =
start=20
now, this hell can be avoided. Third, regardless of the theory of global =

warming, I think it is safe to say that heavy pollution is certainly not =
good=20
for the health of human beings. There is so much cancer nowadays, and =
there is a=20
definite connection there. Fourth, alternatives are not limited in the =
way that=20
oil/fossil fuels are. We would no longer be limited by the availability =
of oil=20
deposits and production quotas for said; if we want more power, we just =
build=20
more solar collector or satellites. This in turn will make energy =
cheaper for=20
the consumer. Five, China is fast becoming a major competitor with the =
US for=20
energy resources. If inexhaustible (well, for 4.5 billion more years) =
energy=20
sources become widely available, we might be able to stave off an =
eventual war=20
over resources. Jed, though I don't hold a position on global warming, I =
am with=20
you on your quest for the alternative energy economy and for clean=20
vehicles.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Me myself, this little minicrisis has =
scared me,=20
and I think it should scare everyone. I am looking into some methods for =

improving the insulation in my residence, and for making some solar heat =

collectors to augment my natural-gas furnace. I have decided that I am =
not going=20
to buy anything commercially manufactured. It will be all home made, in =
hopes=20
that if I get something which works well, others with low or middle =
incomes like=20
myself can make these systems for themselves, at low cost. I don't know =
if any=20
of this will work out, but I will never know if I do not try. If nothing =
else, I=20
will have learned, and have had a good time in the attempt.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Sorry this was so lengthy, and I hope =
it has made=20
some sense...I am rather sick right now with a sinus infection, so for =
all I=20
know, this was the least coherent post I've ever made. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>--Kyle</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 10 04:22:46 2005
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From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: RE: YK2, gurus, economics, mild eugenics.
Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 12:21:57 +0100
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Jed, Steven,
Come off it, it's science.
R.

-----Original Message-----
From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On
Behalf Of OrionWorks
Sent: 08 September 2005 17:05
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Cc: orionworks charter.net
Subject: RE: YK2, gurus, economics, mild eugenics.

> From: R.O.Cornwall

...

> Jed,
> On education: You can take the child out of the ghetto
> but can you take out the ghetto out of the child...
> 
> This is controversial but hey, we like that stuff on Vo.
> Humans are subject to the laws of genetics as other 
> animals: if I look at people around Deptford in SE London
> I see many descendants of dock workers - they are
> thickset and none too bright (and violent). If I see
> descendants of plantation slaves (as opposed to house
> slaves), they too are thickset and thick.
> 
> Sincerely I believe that the 3rd world should exercise
> mild eugenics - marry off the clever and wealthy to
> create a middle class who would then go on to
> fill the professional and administrative jobs. The
> middle class make a society work.
> 
> In societies with old cultures and religions they simply
> excel academically
> - Jews, Chinese, Koreans, Japanese and Asians.
> 
> This is not PC but I advocate tough love.
> Remi.


I might be wrong on who the author is but I believe Carl Sandburg was
responsible for writing the following simple poem:

He who knows not, and knows not that he knows not,
He is a fool.
Shun him.

He who knows not, and knows that he knows not,
He is simple.
Teach him.

He who knows, and knows not that he knows,
He is asleep.
Wake him.

He who knows, and knows that he knows,
He is wise.
Follow him.


After reading your recent comments I might suggest that you consider very
carefully where such opinions might fit in with Mr. Sandburg's poem.

Hint: It is wise not to advocate anything that you would not be willing to
be subjected to yourself, including any judgments the state might make
concerning the value of your genetic heritage.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 10 04:56:42 2005
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From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Mild eugenics and social engineering
Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 12:55:52 +0100
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Further to that, you should get out more from your mansions and your
cloistered upper middle class existence and go take a walk (carry a gun or
don't do it at night) around the housing estates (housing projects) and see
what your hands on, left-wing *social engineering* does.

Take not of the waste of money spent in renovating these properties only to
have them re-vandalised.
The smell of piss, puke and old syringes scattered everywhere.
Routine violence. 
Teenage pregnancies.
*Poor genetic selection pressures* (Reverse evolution)
And more.

No, the human brain is a remarkable resilient thing. The body is pretty much
optimised to protect it in a variety of environmental conditions. Similarly
it doesn't take many generations to get some good brain genes - 2 to 3.

It's the nature-nurture question and if you've every bred animals, some
things like temperament and intelligence are hard to train.

At least on the right we don't advocate stealing other people's wealth for
pet social projects. We just let it happen 'organically' by economic
pressure.

I tried talking about eugenics to my Dad once who is a dyed in the wool
lefty. Just how many pygmies do you see in the 100M or the high jump? Now,
how many of West African decent do you see in the short to middle distance
events or Kenyans and Ugandans in long distance? What about strength
competitions - usually the Scandinavians, especially the Icelandic walk off
with that one? Or what about some martial arts - an expert told me once (7th
Dan) that Karate favours the more stocky short builds (and Judo is like
wrestling) and Tae-Kwon-Do favours long limbed individuals.


You on the left have many taboos and hold back progress. You are scared to
think the un-thinkable. What counts as clever and wins kudos with your peers
is righty-bashing. Look at this FEMA business and this whole big or small
gov. in the light of it.

I put it to you that the left is not more sincere in matters of poverty or
social justice but just as f.ck.d up, racist and classist and patronising
with its system of inverted snobbery - tck! Talk about Barbara Bush!! Do you
know what it's like getting patronised by some upper middle class lefty!?
Next time it happens, I'll tell 'em f.ck off and I don't care if it's the
Queen. "Oh, you've done quite well for yourself." Naf 'orf maam!

Science is about honesty - social science too. I guess those of 'high birth'
are always trying to find a role for themselves. How parasitic to patronise
the poor and immigrants.

Incidentally, the highest IQ measured of over 200 was to a Nigerian girl.
Remi.

-----Original Message-----
From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On
Behalf Of R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk
Sent: 10 September 2005 12:22
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: RE: YK2, gurus, economics, mild eugenics.

Jed, Steven,
Come off it, it's science.
R.

-----Original Message-----
From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On
Behalf Of OrionWorks
Sent: 08 September 2005 17:05
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Cc: orionworks charter.net
Subject: RE: YK2, gurus, economics, mild eugenics.

> From: R.O.Cornwall

...

> Jed,
> On education: You can take the child out of the ghetto
> but can you take out the ghetto out of the child...
> 
> This is controversial but hey, we like that stuff on Vo.
> Humans are subject to the laws of genetics as other 
> animals: if I look at people around Deptford in SE London
> I see many descendants of dock workers - they are
> thickset and none too bright (and violent). If I see
> descendants of plantation slaves (as opposed to house
> slaves), they too are thickset and thick.
> 
> Sincerely I believe that the 3rd world should exercise
> mild eugenics - marry off the clever and wealthy to
> create a middle class who would then go on to
> fill the professional and administrative jobs. The
> middle class make a society work.
> 
> In societies with old cultures and religions they simply
> excel academically
> - Jews, Chinese, Koreans, Japanese and Asians.
> 
> This is not PC but I advocate tough love.
> Remi.


I might be wrong on who the author is but I believe Carl Sandburg was
responsible for writing the following simple poem:

He who knows not, and knows not that he knows not,
He is a fool.
Shun him.

He who knows not, and knows that he knows not,
He is simple.
Teach him.

He who knows, and knows not that he knows,
He is asleep.
Wake him.

He who knows, and knows that he knows,
He is wise.
Follow him.


After reading your recent comments I might suggest that you consider very
carefully where such opinions might fit in with Mr. Sandburg's poem.

Hint: It is wise not to advocate anything that you would not be willing to
be subjected to yourself, including any judgments the state might make
concerning the value of your genetic heritage.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

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Man and Nature's battle against Global Warming.

http://www.netl.doe.gov/publications/journals/vol1/Papers/117-126.pdf

Weathering of rock by the Carbonic Acid in Rainwater/Acid Rain speeds
up in mountain streams.

http://pubs.usgs.gov/gip/acidrain/2.html

" "Clean" or unpolluted rain has a slightly acidic pH of 5.6, because carbon dioxide and water in the air react together to form carbonic acid, a weak acid. Around Washington, D.C., however, the average rain pH is between 4.2 and 4.4. "

Volcanic Gases & Acid Rain:
http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/of97-262/of97-262.html
"Ash column generated by the eruption of Mount Pinatubo, a volcano in the Philippines Luzon volcanic arc, on June 12, 1991. The climactic eruption of Mount Pinatubo occurred three days later on June 15, 1991, and was one of the largest eruptions of this century. The climactic event lasted about 9 hours and erupted over a cubic mile of rock material. It injected a 20- million ton sulfur dioxide cloud into the stratosphere to an altitude of more than 20 miles. The climactic Pinatubo cloud was the largest sulfur dioxide cloud ever observed in the stratosphere since the beginning of such observations by satellites in 1978. It caused what is believed to be the largest aerosol disturbance of the stratosphere this century, although smaller than the estimated disturbances from the eruptions of Tambora in 1815 and Krakatau in 1883. Sulfate aerosol formed in the stratosphere from sulfur dioxide in the Pinatubo cloud increased the reflection of radiation from the Sun back into space. Consequently, the Earth's surface cooled in the three years following the eruption, by as much as 1.3 degrees ( Fahrenheit scale) at the height of the effect."
It stands to reason that the ash and rock thrown out is going to react with these acids.
Frederick
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<P>
<DIV>
<DIV>Man and Nature's battle against Global Warming.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://www.netl.doe.gov/publications/journals/vol1/Papers/117-126.pdf">http://www.netl.doe.gov/publications/journals/vol1/Papers/117-126.pdf</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Weathering of rock by the Carbonic Acid in Rainwater/Acid Rain speeds</DIV>
<DIV>up in mountain streams.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://pubs.usgs.gov/gip/acidrain/2.html">http://pubs.usgs.gov/gip/acidrain/2.html</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>"&nbsp;"Clean" or unpolluted rain has a slightly acidic pH of 5.6, because carbon dioxide and water in the air react together to form carbonic acid, a weak acid. Around Washington, D.C., however, the average rain pH is between 4.2 and 4.4. "</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Volcanic Gases &amp; Acid Rain:</DIV>
<P><A href="http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/of97-262/of97-262.html">http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/of97-262/of97-262.html</A></P>
<P><FONT face="Century Gothic">"Ash column generated by the eruption of Mount Pinatubo, a volcano in the Philippines Luzon volcanic arc, on June 12, 1991. The climactic eruption of Mount Pinatubo occurred three days later on June 15, 1991, and was one of the largest eruptions of this century. The climactic event lasted about 9 hours and erupted over a cubic mile of rock material. It injected a 20- million ton sulfur dioxide cloud into the stratosphere to an altitude of more than 20 miles. The climactic Pinatubo cloud was the largest sulfur dioxide cloud ever observed in the stratosphere since the beginning of such observations by satellites in 1978. It caused what is believed to be the largest aerosol disturbance of the stratosphere this century, although smaller than the estimated disturbances from the eruptions of Tambora in 1815 and Krakatau in 1883. Sulfate aerosol formed in the stratosphere from sulfur dioxide in the Pinatubo cloud increased the reflection of radiation from the Sun back into space. Consequently, the Earth's surface cooled in the three years following the eruption, by as much as 1.3 degrees ( Fahrenheit scale) at the height of the effect."</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="Century Gothic">It stands to reason that the ash and rock thrown out is going to react with these acids.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=+0>Frederick</FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<P></P></BODY></HTML>
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From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk
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Subject: Find-a-cause, middle class guilt and angst
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They're at it again:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/tv_and_radio/4228940.stm

Who wants to be anybody's **"pet"** project? You want a pet - get a dog.
It'll follow you lovingly anywhere you want. Ah, but that's what you want
!?!

Those on the left should realise that people find their own dignity and
don't need it handed out to them. Bush gave 7 billion for flood defences and
obviously local government didn't use it properly.

Stop making excuses for ethnic minority behaviour. Call the N.O. violence
uncivilised, animalistic. Similarly stop coming up with aid and drives for
the 3rd World and tell it to them straight - re-organise, civilise, then
we'll invest as equals.
R.

.......................................
Website
http://luna.bton.ac.uk/~roc1
.......................................

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http://www.uwsp.edu/geo/faculty/ritter/geog101/textbook/mass_movement_weathering/chemical_weathering.html


Carbonic acid action involves combination of carbon dioxide and water. Though present in pure water, carbon dioxide dissolved in water provides ions that produces free hydrogen. Carbon dioxide in the atmosphere combines with rain water to form carbonic acid (H2CO3): 
H2O + CO2 -> H2CO3  
Though weak, when carbonic acid is combined with a mineral like calcite (CaCO3) common to limestone, calcium and bicarbonate ions are released and carried off by groundwater.
CaCO3 + H2CO3  -> Ca+2  +  2 HCO3 -

http://octane.nmt.edu/waterquality/corrosion/CO2.htm
The maximum concentration of dissolved CO2 in water is 800 ppm. When CO2 is present, the most common forms of corrosion include uniform corrosion, pitting corrosion, wormhole attack, galvanic ringworm corrosion, heat affected corrosion, mesa attack, raindrop corrosion, erosion corrosion, and corrosion fatigue.
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<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://www.uwsp.edu/geo/faculty/ritter/geog101/textbook/mass_movement_weathering/chemical_weathering.html">http://www.uwsp.edu/geo/faculty/ritter/geog101/textbook/mass_movement_weathering/chemical_weathering.html</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>
<P><B><I><A name="Carbonic acid action">Carbonic acid action</A></I></B> involves combination of carbon dioxide and water. Though present in pure water, carbon dioxide dissolved in water provides ions that produces free hydrogen. Carbon dioxide in the atmosphere combines with rain water to form carbonic acid (H<SUB>2</SUB>CO<SUB>3</SUB>):&nbsp;</P>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<P>H<SUB>2</SUB>O + CO<SUB>2</SUB> -&gt; H<SUB>2</SUB>CO<SUB>3</SUB> &nbsp;</P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P>Though weak, when carbonic acid is combined with a mineral like calcite (CaCO<SUB>3</SUB>)<SUB> </SUB>common to limestone, calcium and bicarbonate ions are released and carried off by groundwater.</P>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<P>CaCO<SUB>3</SUB> + H<SUB>2</SUB>CO<SUB>3</SUB>&nbsp; -&gt; Ca<SUP>+2</SUP>&nbsp; +&nbsp; 2 HCO<SUB>3 -</SUB></P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P><A href="http://octane.nmt.edu/waterquality/corrosion/CO2.htm">http://octane.nmt.edu/waterquality/corrosion/CO2.htm</A></P>
<P>The maximum concentration of dissolved CO<SUB>2</SUB> in water is 800 ppm. When CO<SUB>2</SUB> is present, the most common forms of corrosion include uniform corrosion, pitting corrosion, wormhole attack, galvanic ringworm corrosion, heat affected corrosion, mesa attack, raindrop corrosion, erosion corrosion, and corrosion fatigue.</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
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Kyle Mcallister wrote:-=20

"so for all I know, this was the least coherent post I've ever made"

It was a great post.
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Kyle Mcallister wrote:- </FONT></DIV>
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From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Forget Fuel Cells - Stretch Your Legs
Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 9:23:03 -0400
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http://www.mbl.edu/inside/what/news/press_releases/2005_pr_09_06b.html

"WOODS HOLE, MA—In an unprecedented breakthrough in the development of portable and renewable human-driven energy sources, an MBL (Marine Biological Laboratory) biomechanics expert who studies how muscle moves skeletons in fish and frogs has invented a backpack that gives new meaning to the term power walking.

In a paper published in the September 9 issue of Science, Lawrence C. Rome, a University of Pennsylvania biology professor who spends his summers conducting research at the MBL, and three colleagues describe the mechanics of, and physics behind, the Suspended-load Backpack, a piece of gear that will one day enable field scientists, hikers, explorers, soldiers, and disaster workers to convert mechanical energy generated by walking with a heavy load on their backs into electricity."

<more>

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Glad your family on the gulf is OK.  You made some excellent =
suggestions.
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Kyle Mcallister=20
  To: Vortex-L=20
  Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2005 12:51 AM
  Subject: Some personal thinkings on energy, etc.


  Hello all,

  First of all, it turns out my family is fine, home undamaged. Most of =
the rest of the city of Ocean Springs, MS is destroyed, so recovery will =
take a long time. But they are surviving, and nicely.

  This storm, the bit of an energy crisis we are having here (probably a =
taste of things to come) and all have led me to many days of deep =
thought on the matters of energy and such, and our future. I don't know =
that these things I am going to discuss will actually happen, but I hope =
they do. The optimist in me says "there is a chance."

  1. We have to find and utilize an alternative to fossil fuels for =
automobiles. Hybrids are fine, for now, but overpriced for the average =
Joe. I will come back to that point later. We need something else, be it =
simple electric driven cars, to a hydrogen powered car. I think both are =
very viable, if we only research it seriously. And in the current =
petrocracy (who coined this term BTW?), this is not happening. Yes, =
there are a few $$$ here and there, but it is not being taken seriously. =
Maybe electric cars for the daily driver, and for the guys who like =
power and performance, give him a nonpolluting, cheaply fueled H2 =
burner. I think hydrogen will be very useful for air travel as well. So =
yes, I am in full favor of the hydrogen economy, but I want it done =
seriously, not just talked about like the Bush admin (and others before =
him) have done.

  2. We need to begin massive programs for construction of wind farms, =
direct solar-to-electricity generator farms, solar and geothermal (heat =
pump) heating systems for homes, and later on orbital solar photovoltaic =
arrays. Will this cost a fortune? Yes. Can we afford it? We must. And =
yes, we can, if we can finance Gulf War II. Nuclear should be used to =
fill in the gaps, but we should strive to make the gaps as small as =
possible.

  3. The entire design ideology behind the manufacture of personal =
automobiles must change, whether we want it to or not. These are hard =
times, and in hard times, hard decisions must be made. The only way to =
get a viable non (or very low) polluting vehicle utilizing an =
alternative fuel source to be available to the majority of the people in =
short order is to make it dirt cheap. NO power windows, power seats, =
Bose sound systems, electronic crap, etc. Make it all mechanical, =
analog, simple. Also, we can eliminate the very costly and ridiculously =
overcomplex emissions control systems from these vehicles, or at least =
highly simplify them. I would even suggest eliminating the antilock =
brake systems. Why? It will make it that much simpler and cheaper. Less =
safe? Not if you are a good driver. As a mechanic, I have seen some very =
bad things happen when antilock computers signal the hydraulic control =
unit to screw around with the wheels for no apparent reason when the =
driver is making speed down the interstate. It is a nice source of =
income for bodywork........ I have driven non-antilock brake cars all my =
life, and in the heavy snows of Buffalo NY. It is not hard to control =
the vehicle with some common sense. The cars that lose control the most =
often, have been in my experience, the SUV's, with their peculiar weight =
distribution. See below. Yes, we would lose many convenience, and =
perhaps a few "safety" features. But, you could put the "little guy" in =
it. This car should be available for a few $k. At first, maybe even give =
incentives for people to get these things. The money they will save =
afterwards will let it more than pay for itself, but many people might =
need a little help to get things started. Just make it damn simple, and =
that's it.

  4. Insurance companies will most likely want to tack on a hefty set of =
extra penalties for the car I just listed above. This cannot be allowed. =
Does the federal government have the ability to step in and say "no, you =
WILL NOT charge these people more for buying these cars."....? I think =
it does. If we acknowledge the fact that we are in an emergency =
situation, and we are, just a slowly developing one, then I think =
stepping in and limiting the profiteering of the insurance companies =
will not seem so alien an idea.

  5. Cease production of the big engined SUVs. Lets see the minivan make =
a comeback for those larger families. There is no reason why a 4.8l fuel =
injected SUV should get 12-16mpg, when I was able to modify the 5.0l =
carbureted motor in my old Chevy to get 26mpg on the highway. And I =
guarantee you, I could outrun any SUV out there. Its all jetting and =
timing, and a hell of a nice camshaft. Back to the SUV's, I routinely =
nearly get run over by these things, and most of them I see are only =
carrying one occupant: the driver. (Usually on a cellular phone, it =
seems.) I think people get these SUV's not because they have need for =
them, but because it has become a status symbol. To me it is a symbol as =
well, one of wasting too much on that which is not needed, while giving =
to little to that which needs it the most. The SUV's are by and large =
top heavy, and roll over easily. Nor are they safe in an accident....the =
frames under these things rust out in no time, and are very thin steel. =
The tanklike Caprice's of days gone by were far more sturdy than these =
beasts, but still the modern SUV weighs more. Why? Well, the frame is =
made of a lot thinner grade steel, but the whole shebang is much larger. =
Not to mention the frontal profile of these things....when you consider =
how much of the gas you use is expended overcoming air resistance, you =
begin to see why the lower profile passenger car makes sense, and the =
boxlike SUV is the loser.

  6. Get around the naysayers like Park. I don't personally know that =
much about LENR/CANR, but what I have seen leads me to believe that, =
with so many people seeing something, that there is something going on. =
If there is even a chance that it could lead to breakthroughs, then it =
is truly insanity of a very high order to not investigate it =
immediately, and seriously. What you don't know CAN hurt you, so let us =
strive to know all we can about this phenomenon. It seems to me that if =
only a fraction of the funding currently spent on conventional (hot) =
fusion research, or any of the myriad other eaters of money were to be =
diverted to the serious study of LENR/CANR, that we would make great =
steps forward. I also place my money on the LENR/CANR guys precisely =
because they have had to do without funding for so long: they have had =
to improvise and figure out ways to do things that they could not afford =
to do any other way. In my experience, having to figure out ways to make =
do with what you have is a great way to sharpen your intellect. If this =
really works, and most importantly, can be made viable on the large =
scale, you can have your hydrogen planes/cars, your EV's, your =
dirt-cheap home heat for the winter, etc., with no problem at all. With =
so much to gain, if there is even a fraction of a percent chance of =
success, then this research MUST BE DONE.

  Lastly, and to Jed in particular: I don't hold a position on the idea =
of global warming. I think that there is insufficient evidence that it =
is happening, or that if it is that it is being caused by our actions. =
HOWEVER; I do believe that we should move away from pollutive and =
limited fuel sources as quickly as possible, just as if there really =
were an imminent threat of environmental collapse. Why? First, we can =
become self reliant, and not be held prisoner by the whims of OPEC or =
the next big natural disaster. Second, there is only so much oil to get, =
and if it runs out before we switch over, then while I believe we can =
still pull ourselves back together and switch to alternatives, it will =
be a living hell for a long time. If we start now, this hell can be =
avoided. Third, regardless of the theory of global warming, I think it =
is safe to say that heavy pollution is certainly not good for the health =
of human beings. There is so much cancer nowadays, and there is a =
definite connection there. Fourth, alternatives are not limited in the =
way that oil/fossil fuels are. We would no longer be limited by the =
availability of oil deposits and production quotas for said; if we want =
more power, we just build more solar collector or satellites. This in =
turn will make energy cheaper for the consumer. Five, China is fast =
becoming a major competitor with the US for energy resources. If =
inexhaustible (well, for 4.5 billion more years) energy sources become =
widely available, we might be able to stave off an eventual war over =
resources. Jed, though I don't hold a position on global warming, I am =
with you on your quest for the alternative energy economy and for clean =
vehicles.

  Me myself, this little minicrisis has scared me, and I think it should =
scare everyone. I am looking into some methods for improving the =
insulation in my residence, and for making some solar heat collectors to =
augment my natural-gas furnace. I have decided that I am not going to =
buy anything commercially manufactured. It will be all home made, in =
hopes that if I get something which works well, others with low or =
middle incomes like myself can make these systems for themselves, at low =
cost. I don't know if any of this will work out, but I will never know =
if I do not try. If nothing else, I will have learned, and have had a =
good time in the attempt.

  Sorry this was so lengthy, and I hope it has made some sense...I am =
rather sick right now with a sinus infection, so for all I know, this =
was the least coherent post I've ever made.=20

  --Kyle

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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Glad your family on the gulf is =
OK.&nbsp; You made=20
some excellent suggestions.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3Dweir fdscience.org href=3D"mailto:weir@fdscience.org">Kyle=20
  Mcallister</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dvortex-l eskimo.com=20
  href=3D"mailto:vortex-l eskimo.com">Vortex-L</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, September 10, =
2005 12:51=20
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Some personal =
thinkings on=20
  energy, etc.</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hello all,</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>First of all, it turns out my family =
is fine,=20
  home undamaged. Most of the rest of the city of Ocean Springs, MS is=20
  destroyed, so recovery will take a long time. But they are surviving, =
and=20
  nicely.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>This storm, the bit of an energy =
crisis we are=20
  having here (probably a taste of things to come) and all have led me =
to many=20
  days of deep thought on the matters of energy and such, and our =
future. I=20
  don't know that these things I am going to discuss will actually =
happen, but I=20
  hope they do. The optimist in me says "there is a =
chance."</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>1. We have to find and utilize an =
alternative to=20
  fossil fuels for automobiles. Hybrids are fine, for now, but =
overpriced for=20
  the average Joe. I will come back to that point later. We need =
something else,=20
  be it simple electric driven cars, to a hydrogen powered car. I think =
both are=20
  very viable, if we only research it seriously. And in the current =
petrocracy=20
  (who coined this term BTW?), this is not happening. Yes, there are a =
few $$$=20
  here and there, but it is not being taken seriously. Maybe electric =
cars for=20
  the daily driver, and for the guys who like power and performance, =
give him a=20
  nonpolluting, cheaply fueled H2 burner. I think hydrogen will be very =
useful=20
  for air travel as well. So yes, I am in full favor of the hydrogen =
economy,=20
  but I want it done seriously, not just talked about like the Bush =
admin (and=20
  others before him) have done.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>2. We need to begin massive programs =
for=20
  construction of wind farms, direct solar-to-electricity generator =
farms, solar=20
  and geothermal (heat pump) heating systems for homes, and later on =
orbital=20
  solar photovoltaic arrays. Will this cost a fortune? Yes. Can we =
afford it? We=20
  must. And yes, we can, if we can finance Gulf War II. Nuclear should =
be used=20
  to fill in the gaps, but we should strive to make the gaps as small as =

  possible.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>3. The entire design ideology behind =
the=20
  manufacture of personal automobiles must change, whether we want it to =
or not.=20
  These are hard times, and in hard times, hard decisions must be made. =
The only=20
  way to get a viable non (or very low) polluting vehicle utilizing an=20
  alternative fuel source to be available to the majority of the people =
in short=20
  order is to make it dirt cheap. NO power windows, power seats, Bose =
sound=20
  systems, electronic crap, etc. Make it all mechanical, analog, simple. =
Also,=20
  we can eliminate the very costly and ridiculously overcomplex =
emissions=20
  control systems from these vehicles, or at least highly simplify them. =
I would=20
  even suggest eliminating the antilock brake systems. Why? It will make =
it that=20
  much simpler and cheaper. Less safe? Not if you are a good driver. As =
a=20
  mechanic, I have seen some very bad things happen when antilock =
computers=20
  signal the hydraulic control unit to screw around with the wheels for =
no=20
  apparent reason when the driver is making speed down the interstate. =
It is a=20
  nice source of income for bodywork........ I have driven non-antilock =
brake=20
  cars all my life, and in the heavy snows of Buffalo NY. It is not hard =
to=20
  control the vehicle with some common sense. The cars that lose control =
the=20
  most often, have been in my experience, the SUV's, with their peculiar =
weight=20
  distribution. See below. Yes, we would lose many convenience, and =
perhaps a=20
  few "safety" features. But, you could put the "little guy" in it. This =
car=20
  should be available for a few $k. At first, maybe even give incentives =
for=20
  people to get these things. The money they will save afterwards will =
let it=20
  more than pay for itself, but many people might&nbsp;need a little =
help to get=20
  things started. Just make it damn simple, and that's it.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>4. Insurance companies will most =
likely want to=20
  tack on a hefty set of extra penalties for the car I just listed =
above. This=20
  cannot be allowed. Does the federal government have the ability to =
step in and=20
  say "no, you WILL NOT charge these people more for buying these =
cars."....? I=20
  think it does. If we acknowledge the fact that we are in an emergency=20
  situation, and we are, just a slowly developing one, then I think =
stepping in=20
  and limiting the profiteering of the insurance companies will not seem =
so=20
  alien an idea.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>5. Cease production of the big =
engined SUVs. Lets=20
  see the minivan make a comeback for those larger families. There is no =
reason=20
  why a 4.8l fuel injected SUV should get 12-16mpg, when I was able to =
modify=20
  the 5.0l carbureted motor in my old Chevy to get 26mpg on the highway. =
And I=20
  guarantee you, I could outrun any SUV out there. Its all jetting and =
timing,=20
  and a hell of a nice camshaft. Back to the SUV's, I routinely nearly =
get run=20
  over by these things, and most of them I see are only carrying one =
occupant:=20
  the driver. (Usually on a cellular phone, it seems.) I think people =
get these=20
  SUV's not because they have need for them, but because it has become a =
status=20
  symbol. To me it is a symbol as well, one of wasting too much on that =
which is=20
  not needed, while giving to little to that which needs it the most. =
The SUV's=20
  are by and large top heavy, and roll over easily. Nor are they safe in =
an=20
  accident....the frames under these things rust out in no time, and are =
very=20
  thin steel. The tanklike Caprice's of days gone by were far more =
sturdy than=20
  these beasts, but still the modern SUV weighs more. Why? Well, the =
frame is=20
  made of a lot thinner grade steel, but the whole shebang is much =
larger. Not=20
  to mention the frontal profile of these things....when you consider =
how much=20
  of the gas you use is expended overcoming air resistance, you begin to =
see why=20
  the lower profile passenger car makes sense, and the boxlike SUV is =
the=20
  loser.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>6. Get around the naysayers like =
Park. I don't=20
  personally know that much about LENR/CANR, but what I have seen leads =
me to=20
  believe that, with so many people seeing something, that there is =
something=20
  going on. If there is even a chance that it could lead to =
breakthroughs, then=20
  it is truly insanity of a very high order to not investigate it =
immediately,=20
  and seriously. What you don't know CAN hurt you, so let us strive to =
know all=20
  we can about this phenomenon. It seems to me that if only a fraction =
of the=20
  funding currently spent on conventional (hot) fusion research, or any =
of the=20
  myriad other eaters of money were to be diverted to the serious study =
of=20
  LENR/CANR, that we would make great steps forward. I also place my =
money on=20
  the LENR/CANR guys precisely because they have had to do without =
funding for=20
  so long: they have had to improvise and figure out ways to do things =
that they=20
  could not afford to do any other way. In my experience, having to =
figure out=20
  ways to make do with what you have is a great way to sharpen your =
intellect.=20
  If this really works, and most importantly, can be made viable on the =
large=20
  scale, you can have your hydrogen planes/cars, your EV's, your =
dirt-cheap home=20
  heat for the winter, etc., with no problem at all.&nbsp;With so much =
to gain,=20
  if there is even a fraction of a percent chance of success, then this =
research=20
  MUST BE DONE.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Lastly, and to Jed in particular: I =
don't hold a=20
  position on the idea of global warming. I think that there is =
insufficient=20
  evidence that it is happening, or that if it is that it is being =
caused by our=20
  actions. HOWEVER; I do believe that we should move away from pollutive =
and=20
  limited fuel sources as quickly as possible, just as if there really =
were an=20
  imminent threat of environmental collapse. Why? First, we can become =
self=20
  reliant, and not be held prisoner by the whims of OPEC or the next big =
natural=20
  disaster. Second, there is only so much oil to get, and if it runs out =
before=20
  we switch over, then while I believe we can still pull ourselves back =
together=20
  and switch to alternatives, it will be a living hell for a long time. =
If we=20
  start now, this hell can be avoided. Third, regardless of the theory =
of global=20
  warming, I think it is safe to say that heavy pollution is certainly =
not good=20
  for the health of human beings. There is so much cancer nowadays, and =
there is=20
  a definite connection there. Fourth, alternatives are not limited in =
the way=20
  that oil/fossil fuels are. We would no longer be limited by the =
availability=20
  of oil deposits and production quotas for said; if we want more power, =
we just=20
  build more solar collector or satellites. This in turn will make =
energy=20
  cheaper for the consumer. Five, China is fast becoming a major =
competitor with=20
  the US for energy resources. If inexhaustible (well, for 4.5 billion =
more=20
  years) energy sources become widely available, we might be able to =
stave off=20
  an eventual war over resources. Jed, though I don't hold a position on =
global=20
  warming, I am with you on your quest for the alternative energy =
economy and=20
  for clean vehicles.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Me myself, this little minicrisis has =
scared me,=20
  and I think it should scare everyone. I am looking into some methods =
for=20
  improving the insulation in my residence, and for making some solar =
heat=20
  collectors to augment my natural-gas furnace. I have decided that I am =
not=20
  going to buy anything commercially manufactured. It will be all home =
made, in=20
  hopes that if I get something which works well, others with low or =
middle=20
  incomes like myself can make these systems for themselves, at low =
cost. I=20
  don't know if any of this will work out, but I will never know if I do =
not=20
  try. If nothing else, I will have learned, and have had a good time in =
the=20
  attempt.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Sorry this was so lengthy, and I hope =
it has made=20
  some sense...I am rather sick right now with a sinus infection, so for =
all I=20
  know, this was the least coherent post I've ever made. </FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>--Kyle</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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Dave is on top of all this.  

http://geoinfo.nmt.edu/staff/love-d/home.html

He got excited about the Isleta Pueblo area south of
Albuquerque when the area around an ancient extinct volcano
gave off some SO2 or H2S odors, and there was a noticeable
increase of sulfur compounds in the water used to irrigate
the golf courses next to the pueblo's gambling casino just off I-25.  :-)

Frederick
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<DIV>Dave is on top of all this.&nbsp; </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://geoinfo.nmt.edu/staff/love-d/home.html">http://geoinfo.nmt.edu/staff/love-d/home.html</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>He got excited about the Isleta&nbsp;Pueblo area south of</DIV>
<DIV>Albuquerque when the area around an ancient extinct volcano</DIV>
<DIV>gave off some SO2 or H2S odors, and there was a noticeable</DIV>
<DIV>increase of sulfur compounds in the water used to irrigate</DIV>
<DIV>the golf courses next to the pueblo's gambling casino just off I-25.&nbsp; :-)</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Frederick</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<P></P></BODY></HTML>
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For those who don't go to links, or have too long a wait.
http://www.netl.doe.gov/publications/journals/vol1/Papers/117-126.pdf
Keywords: carbon sequestration, global climate change, mineral carbonation, olivine, serpentine.
"Based on these assumptions, a single 500 MW power plant, generating approximately 10,000 tons/day of CO2, would require just over 30,000 tons/day of magnesium silicate ore."
The major advantages of CO2 sequestration by mineral carbonation are:
Long Term Stability - Mineral carbonation is a natural process that is known to produce
environmentally safe and stable material over geological time frames. The production of
mineral carbonates insures a permanent fixation rather than temporary storage of the CO2,
thereby guaranteeing no legacy issues for future generations.
Vast Capacity - Raw materials for binding the CO2 exist in vast quantities across the
globe. Readily accessible deposits exist in quantities that far exceed even the most
optimistic estimate of coal reserves (~10,000 ? 109 tons) (5).
Potential to be Economically Viable - The overall process is exothermic and, hence, has
the potential to be economically viable. In addition, its potential to produce value-added
by-products during the carbonation process may further compensate its costs.
At a single site and scale that is consistent with current industrial practice, the process can
handle the output of one to several large power plants. It is directly applicable to advanced
power plants such as zero-emissions Vision 21 system configurations being developed by
DOE’s Fossil Energy Program or to existing power plants, thereby providing an additional
degree of flexibility for future implementation (5).
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<BODY>
<P>
<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>
<P align=left>For those who don't go to links, or have too long a wait.</P>
<P align=left><A href="http://www.netl.doe.gov/publications/journals/vol1/Papers/117-126.pdf"><FONT size=+0>http://www.netl.doe.gov/publications/journals/vol1/Papers/117-126.pdf</FONT></A></P><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>
<P align=left>Keywords: carbon sequestration, global climate change, mineral carbonation, olivine, serpentine.</P></FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>
<P align=left>"Based on these assumptions, a single 500 MW power plant, generating approximately 10,000 tons/day of CO</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=1>2</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>, would require just over 30,000 tons/day of magnesium silicate ore."</P></FONT>
<P align=left>The major advantages of CO</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=1>2 </FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>sequestration by mineral carbonation are:</P></FONT><I><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>
<P align=left>Long Term Stability - </I></FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>Mineral carbonation is a natural process that is known to produce</P>
<P align=left>environmentally safe and stable material over geological time frames. The production of</P>
<P align=left>mineral carbonates insures a permanent fixation rather than temporary storage of the CO</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=1>2</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>,</P>
<P align=left>thereby guaranteeing no legacy issues for future generations.</P></FONT><I><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>
<P align=left>Vast Capacity - </I></FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>Raw materials for binding the CO</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=1>2 </FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>exist in vast quantities across the</P>
<P align=left>globe. Readily accessible deposits exist in quantities that far exceed even the most</P>
<P align=left>optimistic estimate of coal reserves (~10,000 </FONT><FONT face=Symbol size=3>? </FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>10</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=1>9 </FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>tons) (</FONT><B><I><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>5</B></I></FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>).</P></FONT><I><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>
<P align=left>Potential to be Economically Viable - </I></FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>The overall process is exothermic and, hence, has</P>
<P align=left>the potential to be economically viable. In addition, its potential to produce value-added</P>
<P align=left>by-products during the carbonation process may further compensate its costs.</P>
<P align=left>At a single site and scale that is consistent with current industrial practice, the process can</P>
<P align=left>handle the output of one to several large power plants. It is directly applicable to advanced</P>
<P align=left>power plants such as zero-emissions Vision 21 system configurations being developed by</P>
<P align=left>DOE</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>’</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>s Fossil Energy Program or to existing power plants, thereby providing an additional</P>
<P align=left>degree of flexibility for future implementation (</FONT><B><I><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>5</B></I></FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>).</P></FONT></FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<P></P></BODY></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 10 08:19:05 2005
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From: OrionWorks <orionworks charter.net>
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Subject: Re: Mild eugenics and social engineering
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> From: Remi

...

> Further to that, you should get out more from your
> mansions and your cloistered upper middle class existence
> and go take a walk (carry a gun or don't do it at night)
> around the housing estates (housing projects) and see
> what your hands on, left-wing *social engineering* does.
> 
> Take not of the waste of money spent in renovating these
> properties only to have them re-vandalised.
> The smell of piss, puke and old syringes scattered 
> everywhere. Routine violence. Teenage pregnancies.
> *Poor genetic selection pressures* (Reverse evolution)
> And more.
> 
> No, the human brain is a remarkable resilient thing. The
> body is pretty much optimised to protect it in a variety
> of environmental conditions. Similarly it doesn't take
> many generations to get some good brain genes - 2 to 3.
> 
> It's the nature-nurture question and if you've every bred
> animals, some things like temperament and intelligence
> are hard to train.
> 
> At least on the right we don't advocate stealing other
> people's wealth for pet social projects. We just let it
> happen 'organically' by economic pressure.
> 
> I tried talking about eugenics to my Dad once who is a
> dyed in the wool lefty. Just how many pygmies do you see
> in the 100M or the high jump? Now, how many of West
> African decent do you see in the short to middle distance
> events or Kenyans and Ugandans in long distance? What
> about strength competitions - usually the Scandinavians,
> especially the Icelandic walk off with that one? Or what
> about some martial arts - an expert told me once (7th
> Dan) that Karate favours the more stocky short builds
> (and Judo is like wrestling) and Tae-Kwon-Do favours long
> limbed individuals.
> 
> 
> You on the left have many taboos and hold back progress.
> You are scared to think the un-thinkable. What counts as
> clever and wins kudos with your peers is righty-bashing.
> Look at this FEMA business and this whole big or small
> gov. in the light of it.
> 
> I put it to you that the left is not more sincere in
> matters of poverty or social justice but just as f.ck.d
> up, racist and classist and patronising with its system
> of inverted snobbery - tck! Talk about Barbara Bush!! Do
> you know what it's like getting patronised by some upper
> middle class lefty!? Next time it happens, I'll tell 'em
> f.ck off and I don't care if it's the Queen. "Oh, you've
> done quite well for yourself." Naf 'orf maam!
> 
> Science is about honesty - social science too. I guess
> those of 'high birth' are always trying to find a role
> for themselves. How parasitic to patronise
> the poor and immigrants.
> 
> Incidentally, the highest IQ measured of over 200 was to
> a Nigerian girl.
> Remi.

Judge: Is the prosecution ready to make its closing statement?

Prosecutor: Yes, your honor.

Having been told to get out of my mansion and my cloistered upper middle class existence; having been told to carry a gun; having been told that pygmies are inferior because they can't win the 100M or high jump; having been told that Scandinavians and Icelanders are physically stronger; having been told that I am of the left persuasion and have many taboos and hold back progress; having been told that I'm scared to think the un-thinkable; having been told what it's like to get patronized by some upper middle class lefty; having been told that the next time they are patronized by the upper middle class they will simply tell them to f_ck off, including the Queen.

I must make a terrible confession to you, your honor, and to this court. Back in the 80's I helped vote Ragan into power. It was one of the worst blunders in personal judgment I have ever made in my life.

On the other hand, "He who knows not, and knows not that he knows not..."

The human brain is indeed a remarkable resilient thing. I can only hope that the Nigerian girl with an IQ of 200 got the education she deserved. I shudder to think what might have happened if her fate had been left strictly in the hands of natural 'organic' economic pressures.

The prosecution rests.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

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maybe if the upper class didnt design society in such a way to treat people=
=20
like animals, herd animals, good for workers and buyers and nothing more, w=
e=20
wouldnt have this problem.=20

On 9/10/05, R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk <R.O.Cornwall@brighton.ac.uk> wrote=
:=20
>=20
>=20
> They're at it again:
>=20
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/tv_and_radio/4228940.stm
>=20
> Who wants to be anybody's **"pet"** project? You want a pet - get a dog.
> It'll follow you lovingly anywhere you want. Ah, but that's what you want
> !?!
>=20
> Those on the left should realise that people find their own dignity and
> don't need it handed out to them. Bush gave 7 billion for flood defences=
=20
> and
> obviously local government didn't use it properly.
>=20
> Stop making excuses for ethnic minority behaviour. Call the N.O. violence
> uncivilised, animalistic. Similarly stop coming up with aid and drives fo=
r
> the 3rd World and tell it to them straight - re-organise, civilise, then
> we'll invest as equals.
> R.
>=20
> .......................................
> Website
> http://luna.bton.ac.uk/~roc1
> .......................................
>=20
>=20


--=20
"Monsieur l'abb=E9, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to ma=
ke=20
it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire

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maybe if the upper class didnt design society in such a way to treat people=
 like animals, herd animals, good for workers and buyers and nothing more, =
we wouldnt have this problem.&nbsp; <br><br>
<div><span class=3D"gmail_quote">On 9/10/05, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">=
<a href=3D"mailto:R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk">R.O.Cornwall@brighton.ac.uk<=
/a></b> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk">R.O.Cornwall@bri=
ghton.ac.uk
</a>&gt; wrote:</span>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid"><br>They're at it again:<br><br>=
<a href=3D"http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/tv_and_radio/4228940.st=
m">
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/tv_and_radio/4228940.stm</a><br><b=
r>Who wants to be anybody's **&quot;pet&quot;** project? You want a pet - g=
et a dog.<br>It'll follow you lovingly anywhere you want. Ah, but that's wh=
at you want
<br>!?!<br><br>Those on the left should realise that people find their own =
dignity and<br>don't need it handed out to them. Bush gave 7 billion for fl=
ood defences and<br>obviously local government didn't use it properly.<br>
<br>Stop making excuses for ethnic minority behaviour. Call the N.O. violen=
ce<br>uncivilised, animalistic. Similarly stop coming up with aid and drive=
s for<br>the 3rd World and tell it to them straight - re-organise, civilise=
, then
<br>we'll invest as equals.<br>R.<br><br>..................................=
.....<br>Website<br><a href=3D"http://luna.bton.ac.uk/~roc1">http://luna.bt=
on.ac.uk/~roc1</a><br>.......................................<br><br></bloc=
kquote>
</div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br>&quot;Monsieur l'abb=E9, I detest wh=
at you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to conti=
nue to write&quot;&nbsp;&nbsp;Voltaire=20

------=_Part_5681_20519336.1126369497843--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 10 10:09:49 2005
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Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 13:08:19 -0500
From: Harry Veeder <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: Find-a-cause, middle class guilt and angst
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Indeed.
People are born dignified. If they find themselves looking for dignity it is
because
something or someone has taken it from them.

Harry

leaking pen wrote:

maybe if the upper class didnt design society in such a way to treat people
like animals, herd animals, good for workers and buyers and nothing more, we
wouldnt have this problem.


On 9/10/05, R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk <R.O.Cornwall@brighton.ac.uk
<mailto:R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk> > wrote:

They're at it again:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/tv_and_radio/4228940.stm

Who wants to be anybody's **"pet"** project? You want a pet - get a dog.
It'll follow you lovingly anywhere you want. Ah, but that's what you want
!?!

Those on the left should realise that people find their own dignity and
don't need it handed out to them. Bush gave 7 billion for flood defences and
obviously local government didn't use it properly.




--Boundary_(ID_atK4ydbiD3U5gVBk3Hz7qw)
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<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Re: Find-a-cause, middle class guilt and angst</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
Indeed.<BR>
People are born dignified. If they find themselves looking for dignity it is because<BR>
something or someone has taken it from them.<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>Harry<BR>
<BR>
leaking pen wrote:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE>maybe if the upper class didnt design society in such a way to treat people like animals, herd animals, good for workers and buyers and nothing more, we wouldnt have this problem. &nbsp;<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
On 9/10/05, <B>R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk</B> &lt;R.O.Cornwall@brighton.ac.uk &nbsp;&lt;mailto:R.O.Cornwall@brighton.ac.uk&gt; &gt; wrote: <BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
They're at it again:<BR>
<BR>
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/tv_and_radio/4228940.stm<BR>
<BR>
Who wants to be anybody's **&quot;pet&quot;** project? You want a pet - get a dog.<BR>
It'll follow you lovingly anywhere you want. Ah, but that's what you want <BR>
!?!<BR>
<BR>
Those on the left should realise that people find their own dignity and<BR>
don't need it handed out to them. Bush gave 7 billion for flood defences and<BR>
obviously local government didn't use it properly.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
</BODY>
</HTML>


--Boundary_(ID_atK4ydbiD3U5gVBk3Hz7qw)--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 10 10:16:26 2005
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Subject: Re: Some personal thinkings on energy, etc.
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Kyle, ditto...thanks for your contribution.

At 06:03 AM 9/10/2005, you wrote:
>Kyle Mcallister wrote:-
>
>"so for all I know, this was the least coherent post I've ever made"
>
>It was a great post.

--=====================_1890572890==.ALT
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<html>
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Kyle, ditto...thanks for your contribution.<br><br>
At 06:03 AM 9/10/2005, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite=""><font face="arial" size=2>Kyle
Mcallister wrote:- <br>
</font>&nbsp;<br>
<font face="arial" size=2>&quot;so for all I know, this was the least
coherent post I've ever made&quot;<br>
</font>&nbsp;<br>
<font face="arial" size=2>It was a great
post.</font></blockquote></body>
</html>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 10 10:28:57 2005
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Not everyone who wants to help his fellow man is "liberal" nor is 
everyone "conservative" who wants people to take care of themselves.  A 
larger number are simply practical.  We acknowledge that a fraction of 
the population does not have the talents and intelligence to become 
completely self sufficient.  Also, a fraction of the population has no 
interest in their fellow man, are completely self-centered, and 
frequently turn to crime.  This is the human condition.  The question 
is, what can be done to make a society stable and productive while such 
people are a normal part of society. Obviously, simply telling the 
simple-minded to shape up and learn a useful skill is not enough. Simply 
letting the intelligent and self-centered people take over the power 
structure does not work either. The problem in the US these days is that 
people look at the problem and suggest arbitrary solutions based on some 
ideal idea. People are not looking to see what works and then reward 
such efforts. The concept of competence has been lost. Unskilled leaders 
are excused for extreme incompetence and dishonesty because they are 
Republican or Democrat, or more to the point these days, because they 
are "conservative Christians". A society can not survive using this 
approach, as we are on the way to finding out.

Regards,
Ed

R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk wrote:

> They're at it again:
> 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/tv_and_radio/4228940.stm
> 
> Who wants to be anybody's **"pet"** project? You want a pet - get a dog.
> It'll follow you lovingly anywhere you want. Ah, but that's what you want
> !?!
> 
> Those on the left should realise that people find their own dignity and
> don't need it handed out to them. Bush gave 7 billion for flood defences and
> obviously local government didn't use it properly.
> 
> Stop making excuses for ethnic minority behaviour. Call the N.O. violence
> uncivilised, animalistic. Similarly stop coming up with aid and drives for
> the 3rd World and tell it to them straight - re-organise, civilise, then
> we'll invest as equals.
> R.
> 
> .......................................
> Website
> http://luna.bton.ac.uk/~roc1
> .......................................
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 10 12:35:19 2005
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From: Mathias Bage <mathias Stacken.kth.se>
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On Thu, 8 Sep 2005 R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk wrote:

> Mathias,
> I believe the dental care is free for under 16s and emergency via A+E is of
> course free.

Oh, things have changed in the U.K since the 80's.  How sad.

In Sweden, all dental care is free up to 21 years of age, but from then 
on, it's really expensive!  Lots of people can't afford it any more.

>[snip]
>
> This is not PC but I advocate tough love.
> Remi.
>[snip]

/Mathias

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---------------------------------
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Everyone is responsible for their own conduct.

Richard

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[]

Your best source for cold fusion news and information.
Sept. 10, 2005 -- Issue #12

  ISSUE #12 is available online at http://www.newenergytimes.com/news/NET12.htm


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From: "RC Macaulay" <walhalla cvtv.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Pools of stagnation
Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 14:16:43 -0500
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BlankThe city of New Orleans has storm water standing in the streets. =
The water is being pumped back into the canals without disinfecting the =
stagnated water. The EPA has rigid rules covering storm water runoff =
which have been waved due to the emergency and need to dewater the city, =
(although disinfection could have been  a part of the pumping process).

The flooded streets of New Orleans may be symbolic of a host of pools of =
stagnation. Perhaps the most critical is the Department of Energy ( DOE) =
and FEMA( Homeland Security in drag). The description could  also be =
extended to certain of our nation's university energy research endeavors =
and big oil.

The question would be how to find a superdome to use as a staging area =
after creating the perfect storm sufficent to overcome the enertia =
embedded in the " projects" mentality of DOE et.al.   Sufficently =
traumatized by 5 days in such an environment could create a mindset =
among such self agrandizing public entities sufficent for their =
willingness to relocate and disperse.

Once they have been dispersed, work on CF may go funded with the savings =
and unhindered as many as 5 years before bureaucracy can again " snuff" =
any true progress in new energy technology. Unwittingly, the mayor of =
New Orleans and the Louisana governor accomplished the impossible task =
of solving the problem of how to eliminate a city population of 60% =
welfare status citizens in one week. It will take longer than that to =
pump out the polluted water. Neither one requiring expensive =
disinfection.

Richard
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<HTML><HEAD><TITLE id=3DridTitle>Blank</TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"><BASE=20
href=3D"file://E:\Program Files\Common Files\Microsoft =
Shared\Stationery\">
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<BODY id=3DridBody bgColor=3D#ffffff=20
background=3Dcid:000301c5b705$5898b710$0d027841 xptower>
<DIV>The city of New Orleans has&nbsp;storm water standing in the =
streets. The=20
water is being pumped back into the canals without disinfecting the =
stagnated=20
water. The EPA has rigid rules covering storm water runoff which have =
been waved=20
due to the emergency and need to dewater the city, (although=20
disinfection&nbsp;could have been&nbsp; a part of the pumping =
process).</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The flooded streets of New Orleans may be symbolic of a host of =
pools of=20
stagnation. Perhaps the most critical is the Department of Energy ( DOE) =
and=20
FEMA( Homeland Security in drag).&nbsp;The description =
could&nbsp;&nbsp;also be=20
extended to certain of our nation's university energy research endeavors =
and big=20
oil.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The question&nbsp;would be&nbsp;how to find a superdome to use as a =
staging=20
area after creating the perfect storm sufficent to overcome the enertia =
embedded=20
in the " projects" mentality of DOE et.al.&nbsp;&nbsp; Sufficently =
traumatized=20
by 5 days in such an environment could create a mindset among such self=20
agrandizing public entities sufficent for their willingness to relocate =
and=20
disperse.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Once they have been dispersed, work on CF may&nbsp;go funded with =
the=20
savings and&nbsp;unhindered as many as 5 years before bureaucracy can =
again "=20
snuff" any true progress in new energy technology. Unwittingly, the =
mayor of New=20
Orleans and the Louisana governor accomplished the impossible task of =
solving=20
the problem of how to eliminate a city population of 60% welfare status =
citizens=20
in one week. It will take longer than that to&nbsp;pump out&nbsp;the =
polluted=20
water. Neither one requiring expensive disinfection.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Richard</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep 11 12:33:29 2005
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From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
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Subject: Solar Activity Trough
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 . . . has remarkable activity:

http://space.com/scienceastronomy/050909_solar_flares.html

"An ongoing series of seven major solar flares, including two on Saturday, could disrupt communications on Earth and generate colorful sky shows for people at high northern latitudes for the next several days."

<more>

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The impetus for these rambling thoughts is not just tiny but ... Nano... =
capital 'N'.

As a guy who turns on three computers every morning and has two =
broadband connections, I didn't expect to be blown away by the power of =
something about the size of a credit card, but the Apple iPod Nano is a =
such wonder of engineering - and such source of continuing amazement =
(for at least a few days) that the best descriptive adjective is not =
readily apparent. The Nano is less than a quantum jump, but far more =
than incremental gain. Not so much for what the 'Nano' does, but how it =
does it, and the tiny 'form-factor'.... almost Johnny Mnemonical.

Ever go into a store for something minor and walk out with something =
totally unexpected? As a dedicated 'non-shopper' who hasn't been in a =
real Mall in two years, this seldom happens to me... but lack of CDRs, a =
curious sister, and other coincidences and an unexpected break in the =
long check-out line in the Apple Store in SF - is partly how I ended up =
with an iPod Nano. That and a fast-talking twenty-something year old =
geek. Anyway... you have to see one of these things - and use it for a =
day or two to understand the praise-worthy 'elegance' of a =
well-engineered product which seems to portend something far more than =
what it is....which also makes me appreciate the genius of Steve Jobs, =
who is, like Dean Kamen and a handful of other innovators (hopefully =
Mark Goldes is in there too)... these are the kind of guys who can =
pull-off this kind of advance, which cuts across several disciplines, =
and requires uncommon foresight and dedication.=20

There is nothing really "new" to the Nano, but getting 4 gigabytes of =
memory and a 14 hour battery life, and a CPU and an incredible video =
screen into such a tiny product is frankly unbelievable. Think about =
4-gigs of memory for a minute. Each of my large box-computers has one =
eighth of that, which is more than adequate... but just accomplishing =
this big-feat ('Little Feat' the mp3 is on there ;-) is going to 'change =
everything', in small appliances, and computers of the future ...=20

How? There is the wholesale cost of gigabyte level memory, which will go =
down because of products like this ...but since it hasn't yet - this =
very high cost, which surely must be half the retail price, demanded a =
whole new kind of cost-accounting where "markup" is no-longer the =
operative factor in setting the sales price and the bulk of the profit =
is delayed for 6 months or so, until the memory cost does come down. =
It's all very innovative and far-reaching in its potential and demanded =
an unusually close partnership between Apple and the Korean memory =
supplier which I think was Samsung - as in 'played it again, Sam').

This kind of small 'commercial' thing, ostensible 'just' an =
entertainment device and a non-serious product - is part-and-parcel of =
what, for lack of a better term, I have been labeling as the =
"Son-of-xBox Revolution"... where the seemingly insignificant advances =
made to push an unrelated technology, might very well change the whole =
underlying dynamics of AI (artificial intelligence)...i.e. "James Burke =
on steroids."

I think many readers here may have thought that this peculiar line of =
reasoning was placing way too much importance on seemingly minor =
advances... maybe... and few will say that the iPod Nano is a "major" =
anything, and indeed the new xBox itself is not a "major" anything - but =
to me it is all about looking 'over the horizon' to the next few =
advances being accelerated, and then tacked-on to what we have here. How =
soon will it take before the whole supercomputer, with a terabyte of =
memory, is shrunk to this form factor? which could be easily 'implanted' =
by the way).=20

This "Son-of-xBox Revolution" by the way, will be the basis of  =
=DCbermensch, the next evolutionary advance for man-the-thinker... not =
man-the-ape.

OK call me a wide-eyed over-reacting pseudo-visionary optimist - =
regarding the Nano and/or the xBox. But actually, getting back to a =
rapidly lengthening post, what was the original impetus for this no =
longer nano-essay was not the product itself, nor the future portent of =
the actual product, but the "power of word" and especially in the =
context of word vs.image.

We tend to assume, partly because of the old homily, that a picture is =
worth a thousand words. Therefore images are more important. Even if =
that is somewhat true in the abstract, the underlying picture is very in =
comparative "efficiency", as is well demonstrated by the iPod. The =
battery life of 14 hours for audio, and this can include "books on tape" =
for the non musically-inspired, is reduced by over half for images, =
which are comparatively bulky and content-weak when the *economy* issue =
is factored into the equation.

To make a long-story somewhat shorter, then... the bottom-line is that =
even though a picture is worth a thousand words, its "information cost" =
in terms of digital usage and energy overhead, etc.  may be closer to 50 =
thousand words.... which is... in a word... (albeit hyphenated):

Word-power!

Jones
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charset=3Diso-8859-1">
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<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The impetus for these rambling thoughts =
is not just=20
tiny but ...&nbsp;Nano... capital 'N'.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>As a guy who turns on three computers =
every morning=20
and has two broadband connections, I didn't expect to be blown away by =
the power=20
of something about the size of a credit card, but the Apple iPod Nano is =
a such=20
wonder of engineering - and such source of continuing amazement (for at =
least a=20
few days) that the best descriptive adjective is not readily =
apparent.&nbsp;The=20
Nano&nbsp;is less than a quantum jump, but far more than incremental =
gain. Not=20
so much for what&nbsp;the 'Nano'&nbsp;does, but how it does it, and the=20
tiny&nbsp;'form-factor'.... almost Johnny Mnemonical.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Ever go into a store for something =
minor and walk=20
out with something totally unexpected? As a dedicated 'non-shopper' who =
hasn't=20
been in a real Mall in two years, this seldom happens to me... but lack =
of CDRs,=20
a curious sister,&nbsp;and&nbsp;other coincidences and an unexpected =
break in=20
the long check-out line in the Apple Store in SF - is partly how I ended =
up with=20
an iPod Nano. That and a fast-talking twenty-something year old geek. =
Anyway...=20
you have to see one of these things - and use it for a day or two to =
understand=20
the praise-worthy 'elegance' of a well-engineered product which seems to =
portend=20
something far more than what it is....which also makes me appreciate the =
genius=20
of Steve Jobs, who is, like Dean Kamen and a handful of other=20
innovators&nbsp;(hopefully Mark Goldes is in there too)... these are the =
kind of=20
guys who can pull-off this kind of advance, which cuts across several=20
disciplines, and requires uncommon foresight and dedication. =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>There is nothing really "new" to the =
Nano, but=20
getting 4 gigabytes of memory and a 14 hour battery life, and a =
CPU&nbsp;and an=20
incredible video screen into such a tiny product is frankly =
unbelievable. Think=20
about 4-gigs of memory for a minute. Each of my large box-computers has =
one=20
eighth of that, which is more than adequate... but=20
just&nbsp;accomplishing&nbsp;this big-feat ('Little Feat' the mp3 is on=20
there&nbsp;;-) is going to 'change everything', in small appliances, and =

computers of the future&nbsp;... </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>How? There is the wholesale cost of =
gigabyte level=20
memory, which will go down because of products like this ...but since it =
hasn't=20
yet&nbsp;- this very high cost, which&nbsp;surely must be half the =
retail price,=20
demanded a whole new kind of cost-accounting where "markup" is no-longer =
the=20
operative factor in setting the sales price and the bulk of the profit =
is=20
delayed for 6 months or so,&nbsp;until the memory cost does come down. =
It's all=20
very innovative and far-reaching in its potential&nbsp;and demanded an =
unusually=20
close partnership between Apple and the Korean memory supplier which I =
think was=20
Samsung - as in 'played it again, Sam').</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>This kind of small 'commercial' thing, =
ostensible=20
'just' an entertainment device and a non-serious product&nbsp;- is=20
part-and-parcel of what, for lack of a better term, I have been labeling =
as the=20
"Son-of-xBox Revolution"... where the seemingly insignificant advances =
made to=20
push an unrelated technology, might very well change the whole =
underlying=20
dynamics of AI (artificial intelligence)...i.e. "James Burke on=20
steroids."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I think many readers here may have =
thought that=20
this peculiar line of reasoning was placing way too much importance on =
seemingly=20
minor advances... maybe... and few will say that the iPod Nano is a =
"major"=20
anything, and indeed&nbsp;the new xBox itself is not a "major" anything =
- but to=20
me it is all about looking 'over the horizon' to the next few advances =
being=20
accelerated, and then tacked-on to what we have here. How soon will it =
take=20
before the whole supercomputer, with a terabyte of memory, is shrunk to =
this=20
form factor? which could be easily 'implanted' by the way). =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>This "Son-of-xBox Revolution" by the =
way, will be=20
the basis of&nbsp; =DCbermensch, the next evolutionary advance for=20
man-the-thinker... not man-the-ape.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>OK call me a wide-eyed over-reacting=20
pseudo-visionary optimist&nbsp;- regarding the Nano and/or the xBox. But =

actually, getting back to a rapidly lengthening post,&nbsp;what was the =
original=20
impetus for this no longer nano-essay was not the product itself, nor =
the future=20
portent of the actual product, but the "power of word"&nbsp;and =
especially in=20
the context of word&nbsp;vs.image.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>We tend to assume, partly because of =
the old=20
homily,&nbsp;that a picture is worth a thousand words. Therefore images =
are more=20
important. Even if that is somewhat true in the abstract, the underlying =
picture=20
is very in comparative "efficiency", as is well demonstrated by the =
iPod. The=20
battery life of 14 hours for audio, and this can include "books on tape" =
for the=20
non musically-inspired, is reduced by over half for images, which are=20
comparatively bulky and content-weak when the *economy* issue is =
factored into=20
the equation.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>To make a long-story somewhat shorter, =
then... the=20
bottom-line is that even though a picture is worth a thousand words, its =

"information cost" in terms of digital usage and energy overhead,=20
etc.&nbsp;&nbsp;may be closer to 50 thousand words.... which is... in a =
word...=20
(albeit hyphenated):</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Word-power!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Jones</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C5B6A8.485C0BC0--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep 11 12:39:52 2005
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Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 15:37:01 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Some personal thinkings on energy, etc.
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Kyle Mcallister wrote:

>1. We have to find and utilize an alternative to fossil fuels for 
>automobiles. Hybrids are fine, for now, but overpriced for the average Joe.

I disagree. They cost only about $3,000 more than regular cars, and the gap 
would be a smaller if millions of these cars were manufactured. Some Honda 
Civics that cost more than the base-model Prius, which costs $22,000. Plus 
the government gives you a rebate, which just about covers the extra $3,000.


>2. We need to begin massive programs for construction of wind farms, 
>direct solar-to-electricity generator farms, solar and geothermal (heat 
>pump) heating systems for homes, and later on orbital solar photovoltaic 
>arrays. . . .

Yup. But the first and largest investment should be in conservation, 
because that is the most cost-effective, and also in plug-in hybrid cars, 
because the biggest crisis is in oil fuel, and most oil is used to power 
automobiles. By "cost-effective" I mean that a dollar spent on better 
insulation in the home or compact fluorescent light bulbs will save more 
energy than a dollar spent on wind farms. Once we close the efficiency gap 
with nation such as Italy and Japan, from that point on improvements in 
efficiency will become more expensive, and it will be better to shift the 
bulk of the money to wind farms, PV, nuclear power plants and so on.


>Will this cost a fortune? Yes. Can we afford it? We must. And yes, we can, 
>if we can finance Gulf War II. Nuclear should be used to fill in the gaps, 
>but we should strive to make the gaps as small as possible.
>



>3. The entire design ideology behind the manufacture of personal 
>automobiles must change, whether we want it to or not. These are hard 
>times, and in hard times, hard decisions must be made. The only way to get 
>a viable non (or very low) polluting vehicle utilizing an alternative fuel 
>source to be available to the majority of the people in short order is to 
>make it dirt cheap. NO power windows, power seats, Bose sound systems, 
>electronic crap, etc. Make it all mechanical, analog, simple.

This seems like a bad idea for the modern age. Henry Ford embraced this 
marketing philosophy. It worked splendidly from 1906 until the mid-1920s, 
but after that companies such as General Motors took away market share and 
became the industry leaders by offering complicated features and 
ever-changing models. If that is what the bulk of American public wants, 
that is what automobile manufacturers must provide. Of course they should 
also offer some simple, dirt cheap models. And they do. (Or they did 10 
years ago.) That describes my $9,000 Geo Metro to a "T." manual shift, roll 
down windows, no radio, no frills -- just basic transportation. What we 
need is something like a plug-in hybrid version of the Geo Metro, for 
$12,000 instead of $9,000, with a $3000 tax rebate to cover the difference.



>Also, we can eliminate the very costly and ridiculously overcomplex 
>emissions control systems from these vehicles, or at least highly simplify 
>them.

Absolutely. An all-electric car is the best way to accomplish this. That is 
what the Japanese manufacturers are bringing to the market very soon. The 
range will be only 200 km but that will satisfy many applications, because 
the time required to recharge has been shortened.


>I would even suggest eliminating the antilock brake systems. Why? It will 
>make it that much simpler and cheaper. Less safe? Not if you are a good driver.

But most people are not good drivers, so this is a bad idea. The extra cost 
of the antilock systems is probably more than paid for by the reduction in 
the cost of accidents. This would make the equipment cheaper but the 
overall cost of driving automobiles more expensive. My insurance agent told 
me that nowadays most of the cost of accidents is the hospital bill, not 
the damage to equipment. (That is why my Geo Metro, which is now officially 
worth nothing, costs almost as much to insure as the Prius.)

You have to remember that the cost of a machine includes not only the 
hardware itself, but also the social cost and the day-to-day cost of using 
the equipment. Take a cheap computer costing $600. The screen may be small, 
making it annoying to work with, which causes expensive delays an extra 
work. The CPU may be too slow to use voice input, so the keyboard may give 
you carpal tunnel syndrome. Because of these problems, the machine may end 
up costing you tens of thousands of dollars. You may be able to avoid these 
problems with a $2,500 computer, like mine, which is equipped with two 
side-by-side large screens. You spend an extra $1,900 up front, but you 
avoid paying ~$40,000 or losing your job because of carpal tunnel syndrome.


>4. Insurance companies will most likely want to tack on a hefty set of 
>extra penalties for the car I just listed above. This cannot be allowed.

It must be allowed. In a free society, we cannot force the insurance 
companies to lose money and make stupid, costly decisions. If additional 
expensive equipment and automobiles makes the total cost of owning the 
automobiles cheaper, then we must allow insurance companies to charge less.

On the other hand, some aspects of automobile insurance should be held up 
to public scrutiny, and perhaps regulated. For example, insurance companies 
charge SUV owners somewhat less, because they pay somewhat less for damage 
they inflict on other cars, they often kill the passengers in these other 
cars, rather than wounding them, and funerals are cheaper than hospital 
bills. (I am not kidding.) This is not the responsibility of the insurance 
companies, but it certainly is an issue that should be dealt with by the 
Congress, by automobile manufacturers, and by class-action lawsuits brought 
by people whose family members have been killed by SUVs.


>5. Cease production of the big engined SUVs. Lets see the minivan make a 
>comeback for those larger families.

I would love to see this happen, but it can only be the result of 
free-market forces, not legislative fiat. Free market forces might include 
expensive gasoline, and class-action lawsuits against automobile companies 
because they knowingly manufacture SUVs that kill thousands of extra people 
every year (mainly the passengers in the cars that these SUVs hit in 
accidents).



>6. Get around the naysayers like Park. I don't personally know that much 
>about LENR/CANR, but what I have seen leads me to believe that, with so 
>many people seeing something, that there is something going on. . . .

I wish I knew how to get around people like Park! But if we must have 
enemies, people like him are the best enemies we could wish for, because 
they make us look good.


>Lastly, and to Jed in particular: I don't hold a position on the idea of 
>global warming. I think that there is insufficient evidence that it is 
>happening, or that if it is that it is being caused by our actions. 
>HOWEVER; I do believe that we should move away from pollutive and limited 
>fuel sources as quickly as possible, just as if there really were an 
>imminent threat of environmental collapse. . . .

I agree completely, for the same reasons. I too do not feel that I 
understand the scientific issues enough to assert that global warming is 
caused by carbon dioxide. On the other hand I am pretty sure that global 
warming is occurring. The evidence for that seems strong and easy to 
understand. Whether it is being caused by humans or natural forces I cannot 
judge. So I have to go with the scientific consensus. This is a safe 
choice, because the scientific consensus is usually correct.

The scientific consensus is certainly correct in the case of cold fusion. 
There is confusion about this issue, by the way. It was echoed here 
recently when someone a message saying we cannot we cannot trust a large 
group of scientists who reach a consensus. Of course a large group *might* 
be wrong, but we can be pretty safe going along with it when we do not 
understand the technical issues. Only one group of scientists has made a 
serious effort to evaluate cold fusion: the people who wrote the 3,000 
papers listed at LENR-CANR.org. By a huge majority they have concluded that 
cold fusion is a real, nuclear effect. Of course thousands of other 
scientists have disparaged cold fusion and claimed it is not real, but they 
have not written any papers and they know nothing about the subject, so 
their views have no merit. They may work as scientists during the day, but 
when they talk about cold fusion they stop acting as scientists. Their 
opinions should carry no more weight than the opinion of some blowhard 
eating breakfast at the Waffle House. A "scientific consensus" only 
includes people who have done their homework, not everyone who happens to 
have a PhD.


>Me myself, this little minicrisis has scared me, and I think it should 
>scare everyone.

I wish it would. This is the kind of wake-up call we need. Unfortunately, 
my impression is that we have pushed the national snooze-button, and most 
people are going back to sleep.


>Sorry this was so lengthy, and I hope it has made some sense...I am rather 
>sick right now with a sinus infection, so for all I know, this was the 
>least coherent post I've ever made.

On the contrary. Good posting! Good job! But you should punch that snooze 
button and get some sleep. Also I recommend washing the sinuses with warm 
salt water. Use 1 teaspoon of salt per cup of water. Just snuff it in. That 
technique was recommended to me by a WWII-era doctor, who was posted to 
China, where he treated Chiang Kai-shek, among other patients.

- Jed


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BlankAh... The Devil made him do it...

Its funny that so much either well-disguised "keen observation" or =
"alternative perspective" comes and goes regularly on vortex, almost =
unnoticed amidst the conspiracy theory bunko and blame-game shenanigans. =
As Richard - who knows a few things about Texas politics and =
disinfecting water - opined, undoudedly tongue-in-cheek...

"Unwittingly, the mayor of New Orleans and the Louisana governor =
accomplished the impossible task of solving the problem of how to =
eliminate a city population of 60% welfare status citizens in one week. =
It will take longer than that to pump out the polluted water. Neither =
one requiring expensive disinfection."

I suppose, if one wanted to get cynical about the future prospects about =
N.O. (just say NO?) in the future months... after the legislature clears =
out the old ghetto areas, FEMA makes the city water-tight, and special =
interests get total control of the old Negro neighborhoods... for =
purposes of "redeveopment"... followed very shortly thereafter by the =
Louisiana legislature making gambling legal in Nawlins, thereby giving =
an incredible economic landfall to the developers... ahem... whoever =
they will be?? then all of this will look like another pre-planned =
event, and who better to blame than old lucifer hisself... or is that =
old Louis Cypher?=20

Does anyone remember the sensationally devilish and highly stylized role =
of Robert De Niro in "Angel Heart" ? Bobby imbues the satanic role with =
just the right amount of sardonic humor and restrained menace, of the =
casual N.O. variety, so as to make the character memorable and fairly =
relevant to present circumstances. Set in both Harlem and New Orleans in =
1955, this supernatural thriller stirred a brief controversy among the =
segregationalists and prudes, when released in 1987 - because of some =
sexually explicit scenes featuring Mickey Rourke and Lisa Bonet (or  =
Liliquois Moon, if you are from esseff) who was previously popular in =
the family-style role of  'Denise' on The Cosby Show ... the scenes were =
actually considered too sexually explicit to be rated R but one sonders =
if the inter-racial thinkg was not partly to blame.  Wow if you can get =
hold of the uncut version, you might wonder if good old Bill, the model =
of the minority family man, had a little side-actoin going.

Well anyway, the whole N.O Bush show, with Laura claiming "frame-up" is =
all so very pseudo-biblical....and in the words of pseudo-evangelists, =
Bergquist and Detweiler

Jesus In New Orleans

The last time I saw Jesus
I was drinking bloody mary's in the South
In a barroom in New Orleans
Rinsin' out the bad taste in my mouth

She wore a dark and faded blazer
With a little of the lining hanging out
When the jukebox played Miss Dorothy Moore
I knew that it was him without a doubt

I said the road is my redeemer
I never know just what on earth I'll find
In the faces of a stranger
In the dark and weary corners of a mind

She said, The last highway is only
As far away as you are from yourself
And no matter just how bad it gets
It does no good to blame somebody else

Ain't it crazy
What's revealed when you're not looking all that close

Ain't it crazy
How we put to death the ones we need the most

I know I'm not a martyr
I've never died for anyone but me
The last frontier is only
The stranger in the mirror that I see

But when I least expect it
Here and there I see my savior's face
He's still my favorite loser
Falling for the entire human race

For the youngsters out there, Dorothy Moore was an R&B idol (back when =
all Negro pop music was decreed by the record companies to labeled as =
R&B - presumably so the white youth would know not to be enticed to =
purchase it) ... and she had two huge hits in the seventies with for =
covers of "Misty Blue" and "Funny How Time Slips Away."  "Funny How Time =
Slips Away" was written in 1961 by non other than a young Willie Nelson. =
Dot's version wasn't as definitive a soulful recasting as Joe Hinton's =
primo rendition... but it did better on the charts.

So...What's the big deal? and what is the connection between Satan - =
what some might call a warped view of Jesus, "Funny How Time Slips =
Away." and N.O. politics?

Ah... is it the anti-christ??

http://www.bushisantichrist.com/


Check out the "hook 'em horns" hand-signal that Bush (and Laura) are =
constantly flashing to the world, whenever he gets the chance (about =
half way down the page are a half-dozen shots of this strange signal - =
which ccording to dubya, he is NOT giving the internationally recognized =
sign for devil worshippers.

His lame explanation?  According to the man-hisself, he is really giving =
the sign of the University of Texas Longhorns !!

But this deception doesn't hold water for two very good reasons. =20
#1 George W Bush never attended the University of Texas.  He received =
his undergraduate degree from Yale University.  The University of Texas =
law school turned him down because his record at Yale was so bad.  =
Family connections enabled him to get into Harvard Business school. =
Let's face it - nobody in their right mind goes around continually =
flashing the sign of a college they never attended, a college that =
rejected him. =20

Did old dubya do the Faustian deal with old Louis to get in the White =
House. Some (the detractors of Laura Bush) are on record as saying that =
she played the rolde of Eve in all of this. After all, they say Laura =
killed here boyfriend in 1963, and got away with it becasue of =
putting-on a big show about "getting saved" for the press, when the "fix =
was on"... according to the victims's relatives. It is plausibly =
Faustian, but very likely just more conspiracy theory bunko and =
blame-game shenanigans. `It was a very tragic accident that deeply =
affected the families and was very painful for all involved, including =
the community at large,'' says her spokesman, Andrew Malcolm. ``To this =
day, Mrs. Bush remains unable to talk about it.''

Wonder why.=20

Signed (with tongue-in-cheek),

Harry Tuttle    =20
        ----Ductwork engineer and Faustian enforcer



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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD><TITLE id=3DridTitle>Blank</TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"><BASE=20
href=3D"file://E:\Program Files\Common Files\Microsoft =
Shared\Stationery\">
<STYLE></STYLE>

<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2722" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY id=3DridBody bgColor=3D#ffffff background=3D"">
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Ah... The Devil made him do =
it...<BR><BR>Its funny=20
that so much either well-disguised "keen observation" or "alternative=20
perspective" comes and goes regularly on vortex, almost unnoticed amidst =
the=20
conspiracy theory bunko and blame-game shenanigans. As Richard - who =
knows a few=20
things about Texas politics and&nbsp;disinfecting water - opined, =
undoudedly=20
tongue-in-cheek...<BR><BR>"Unwittingly, the mayor of New Orleans and the =

Louisana governor accomplished the impossible task of solving the =
problem of how=20
to eliminate a city population of 60% welfare status citizens in one =
week. It=20
will take longer than that to pump out the polluted water. Neither one =
requiring=20
expensive disinfection."<BR><BR>I suppose, if one wanted to get cynical =
about=20
the future prospects about N.O. (just say NO?) in the future months... =
after the=20
legislature clears out the old ghetto areas, FEMA makes the city =
water-tight,=20
and special interests get total control of the old Negro =
neighborhoods... for=20
purposes of "redeveopment"... followed very shortly thereafter by the =
Louisiana=20
legislature making gambling legal in Nawlins, thereby giving an =
incredible=20
economic landfall to the developers... ahem... whoever they will be?? =
then all=20
of this will look like another pre-planned event, and who better to =
blame than=20
old lucifer hisself... or is that&nbsp;old Louis Cypher? <BR><BR>Does =
anyone=20
remember the sensationally devilish&nbsp;and highly stylized role of =
Robert De=20
Niro in "Angel Heart" ? Bobby imbues the satanic role with just the =
right amount=20
of sardonic humor and restrained menace, of the casual N.O. variety, so =
as to=20
make the character memorable and fairly relevant to present =
circumstances. Set=20
in both Harlem and New Orleans in 1955, this supernatural thriller =
stirred a=20
brief controversy among the segregationalists and prudes, when released =
in 1987=20
- because of some sexually explicit scenes featuring Mickey Rourke and =
Lisa=20
Bonet (or&nbsp; Liliquois Moon, if you are from esseff)&nbsp;who was =
previously=20
popular in the family-style role of &nbsp;'Denise'&nbsp;on The Cosby =
Show ...=20
the scenes were actually considered too sexually explicit to be rated R =
but one=20
sonders if the inter-racial thinkg was not partly to blame.&nbsp; Wow if =
you can=20
get hold of the uncut version, you might wonder if good old Bill, the =
model of=20
the minority family man,&nbsp;had a little side-actoin =
going.<BR><BR>Well=20
anyway, the whole N.O Bush show, with Laura claiming "frame-up" is all =
so very=20
pseudo-biblical....and in the words of =
pseudo-evangelists,&nbsp;Bergquist and=20
Detweiler<BR><BR>Jesus In New Orleans<BR><BR>The last time I saw =
Jesus<BR>I was=20
drinking bloody mary's in the South<BR>In a barroom in New =
Orleans<BR>Rinsin'=20
out the bad taste in my mouth<BR><BR>She wore a dark and faded =
blazer<BR>With a=20
little of the lining hanging out<BR>When the jukebox played Miss Dorothy =

Moore<BR>I knew that it was him without a doubt<BR><BR>I said the road =
is my=20
redeemer<BR>I never know just what on earth I'll find<BR>In the faces of =
a=20
stranger<BR>In the dark and weary corners of a mind<BR><BR>She said, The =
last=20
highway is only<BR>As far away as you are from yourself<BR>And no matter =
just=20
how bad it gets<BR>It does no good to blame somebody else<BR><BR>Ain't =
it=20
crazy<BR>What's revealed when you're not looking all that =
close<BR><BR>Ain't it=20
crazy<BR>How we put to death the ones we need the most<BR><BR>I know I'm =
not a=20
martyr<BR>I've never died for anyone but me<BR>The last frontier is =
only<BR>The=20
stranger in the mirror that I see<BR><BR>But when I least expect =
it<BR>Here and=20
there I see my savior's face<BR>He's still my favorite loser<BR>Falling =
for the=20
entire human race<BR><BR>For the youngsters out there, Dorothy Moore was =
an=20
R&amp;B idol (back when all Negro pop music was decreed by the record =
companies=20
to labeled as R&amp;B - presumably so the white youth would know not to =
be=20
enticed to purchase it) ... and she had two huge hits in the seventies =
with for=20
covers of "Misty Blue" and "Funny How Time Slips Away."&nbsp; "Funny How =
Time=20
Slips Away" was written in 1961 by non other than a young Willie Nelson. =
Dot's=20
version wasn't as definitive a soulful recasting as Joe Hinton's primo=20
rendition... but it did better on the charts.<BR><BR>So...What's the big =
deal?=20
and what&nbsp;is the connection between Satan - what some might call a =
warped=20
view of Jesus, "Funny How Time Slips Away." and N.O. =
politics?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Ah... is it the =
anti-christ??</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"http://www.bushisantichrist.com/">http://www.bushisantichrist.com=
/</A></FONT></DIV><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Check out the "hook 'em horns" =
hand-signal that=20
Bush (and Laura)&nbsp;are constantly flashing to the world, whenever he =
gets the=20
chance (about half way down the page are a half-dozen shots of this =
strange=20
signal - which ccording to dubya, he is NOT giving the internationally=20
recognized sign for devil worshippers.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>His lame explanation?&nbsp;&nbsp;According to the man-hisself, he =
is really=20
giving the sign of the University of Texas Longhorns !!</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>But this deception doesn't hold water for two very good =
reasons.&nbsp;=20
</DIV>
<DIV>#1 George W Bush never attended the University of Texas.&nbsp; He =
received=20
his undergraduate degree from Yale University.&nbsp; The University of =
Texas law=20
school turned him down because his record at Yale was so bad.&nbsp; =
Family=20
connections enabled him to get into Harvard Business school. Let's face =
it -=20
nobody in their right mind goes around continually flashing the sign of =
a=20
college they never attended, a college that rejected =
him.&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR></DIV>
<DIV>Did old dubya do the Faustian deal with old Louis to get in the =
White=20
House. Some (the detractors of Laura Bush) are on record as&nbsp;saying =
that she=20
played the rolde of Eve in all of this. After all, they say Laura killed =
here=20
boyfriend in&nbsp;1963, and got away with it becasue of putting-on a big =
show=20
about "getting saved" for the press, when the "fix was on"... according =
to the=20
victims's relatives. It is plausibly Faustian, but very likely just more =

conspiracy theory bunko and blame-game shenanigans. `It was a very =
tragic=20
accident that deeply affected the families and was very painful for all=20
involved, including the community at large,'' says her spokesman, Andrew =

Malcolm. ``To this day, Mrs. Bush remains unable to talk about =
it.''</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Wonder why. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Signed (with tongue-in-cheek),</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Harry Tuttle&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ----Ductwork engineer and =
Faustian=20
enforcer</DIV>
<DIV></FONT><BR><BR>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0043_01C5B6D6.6DB62F80--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep 11 15:33:10 2005
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I've reached my limit.  Seeking new horizons.  

Fare well...
 
-T, Oscillator!

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From: OrionWorks <orionworks charter.net>
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There seems to be a temporary lull in vort posts filled with esoteric equations and banter laced with techno-geekspeak. I'll take this opportunity to go off on a tangent from Mr. Beene's essay where he pondered the ramifications of Apple's latest addition, those fantastic 4 gigabyte Nano Ipods.

The familiar phrase "A picture is worth a thousand words" goes for music as well. Besides being a graphic artist I've also dabbled in music composition. Back in the mid 90s I had a brief opportunity to assemble a modest little home studio. Due to the fact that the cost of purchasing professional sound cards finally came down from the rarified heights of the stratosphere I could finally afford to put together my own personal studio. I ended up creating a series of personal compositions, a dream I thought that would never happen in my life.

I can not stress the kind of revolution that has also taken place in the audio world as a result of the fact that today an artist only has to shell out a couple thousand dollars in order to assemble a sophisticated "home studio" capable of composing professional quality works that only a decade earlier would have cost him fifty to one hundred fifty thousand dollars, essentially the cost of a modest home.

Jed, I think this is a good example of disruptive technology at work in our society though perhaps manifested on a more personal and creative level. Never the less, if new forms of CF, ZPE and/or free energy finally become a reality the revolution that has transpired within the audio recording industry could happen as well in a lot of other sectors, where the price of various energy intensive products suddenly become a lot cheaper. Society in the collective sense becomes richer, and nobody even had to get a raise.

This is, BTW, a shameless personal plug to get a few of you to listen to my compositions. ;-) But for those who choose to explore my MP3 converted works I hope some may find it to have been a worthwhile experience. And besides, the downloads are free! No 99 cent charge!

Regarding my compositions, ten years ago I had the opportunity to compose from scratch six brand new songs using state of the art hardware and software of that time. This included an AMD K6 computer running at 400 megahertz with 756 megabytes of memory. Later I upgraded to a Pentium III 667 Megahertz PC with 756 megabytes of memory. I also installed several professional PCI based sound cards. This included YAMAHA's SW1000XG (sound card), YAMAHA's DS2416 (DSP Factory), and YAMAHA's PLG150-VL (Virtual Acoustic Plug-in Board). The fruits of my labor can be downloaded in MP3 format, converted to FM Radio quality for easier bandwidth access at:

http://orionworks.com/audio/index.htm

Unfortunately, life has conspired against me for the past six years making it impossible to compose additional works. I had to disassemble my home studio when after a 10 year "courtship" I got married in 2001 and my wife, of all things, decided to shack up with me. Make room! Make room! Perhaps in the future when things aren't as hectic. These days I've got enough irons in the fire.

One final comment concerning the first two compositions: For those of you who enjoy the mystery of the Northern Lights, these two recordings (specifically the Staharazad Series) contain processed ground based ELF-VLF audio recordings of Northern Lights activity originally captured by Stephen P McGrevy. I downloaded and processed raw audio files captured by Stephen from his web site at: http://www-pw.physics.uiowa.edu/mcgreevy/

Enjoy.

Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

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BlankJones wrote..

>This kind of small 'commercial' thing, ostensible 'just' an =
entertainment device and a non-serious product - is part-and-parcel of =
what, for lack of a better term, I have been labeling as the =
"Son-of-xBox Revolution"... where the seemingly insignificant advances =
made to push an unrelated technology, might very well change the whole =
underlying dynamics of AI (artificial intelligence)...i.e. "James Burke =
on steroids."


Jones .. following this theme... back in the 1950's as the " =
doodlebuggers" geophysical companies were turning to electronics to =
serve the oil exploration needs and downhole surveyors like Schlumberger =
, Dialog etc. A rip snorting company emerged called SIE, Southwest =
Industrial Electronics. They worked in close harmony with Texas =
Instruments (TI) developing miniature electronics that would slip down a =
well casing. Pres. Dwight E. was contacted by the Japanese trade mission =
wanting to tour the TI plant in Dallas over the objections of TI. Taking =
their cameras with them ,the Japanese also took the technology back to =
Japan ... shazaam!   In short order the Japanese were marketing =
transistor radios. Recall the small sizes they were able to create?  =
Fast forward to the the 1960's and NASA had the need for miniature =
electronics for space exploration. Supposedly NASA invented every new =
technology since that time.. or.. errr. their PR do. Fast forward to =
2005 and see Brother Corp ( The old Nippon Sewing Machine works of 1910 =
Japan) steal the thunder from HP with blazing technology. Their voice =
recognition technology may be light years ahead.

The new Apple I Pod Nano is just enterprise at work in an ever changing =
world.

Back in 1936, I recall my grandfather telling about his years in the US =
army training the Phillipine Constabulary from=20
1900-1915. He spent time in China also..He grew to love these people. =
His ever remembered comment.. when this far east giant awakes,, stand =
aside because they have a work ethic , the likes we have never seen =
before.

Richard
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<DIV>Jones wrote..</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&gt;This kind of small 'commercial' =
thing,=20
ostensible 'just' an entertainment device and a non-serious =
product&nbsp;- is=20
part-and-parcel of what, for lack of a better term, I have been labeling =
as the=20
"Son-of-xBox Revolution"... where the seemingly insignificant advances =
made to=20
push an unrelated technology, might very well change the whole =
underlying=20
dynamics of AI (artificial intelligence)...i.e. "James Burke on=20
steroids."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Jones .. following this theme... back in the 1950's as the " =
doodlebuggers"=20
geophysical companies were turning to electronics to serve the oil =
exploration=20
needs and downhole surveyors like Schlumberger , Dialog etc. A rip =
snorting=20
company emerged called SIE, Southwest Industrial Electronics. They =
worked in=20
close harmony with Texas Instruments (TI) developing miniature =
electronics that=20
would slip down a well casing. Pres. Dwight E. was contacted by the =
Japanese=20
trade mission wanting to tour the TI plant in Dallas over the objections =
of TI.=20
Taking their cameras with them ,the Japanese also took the technology =
back to=20
Japan ... shazaam!&nbsp;&nbsp; In short order the Japanese were =
marketing=20
transistor radios. Recall the small sizes they were able to create? =
&nbsp;Fast=20
forward to the the 1960's and NASA had the need for miniature =
electronics for=20
space exploration. Supposedly NASA invented every new technology since =
that=20
time.. or.. errr. their PR do. Fast forward to 2005 and see Brother Corp =
( The=20
old Nippon Sewing Machine works of 1910 Japan) steal the thunder from HP =
with=20
blazing technology. Their voice recognition technology may be light =
years=20
ahead.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The new Apple I Pod Nano is just enterprise at work in an ever =
changing=20
world.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Back in 1936, I recall my grandfather telling about his years in =
the US=20
army training the Phillipine Constabulary from </DIV>
<DIV>1900-1915. He spent time in China also..He grew to love these=20
people.&nbsp;His ever remembered comment.. when this far east giant =
awakes,,=20
stand aside because they have a work ethic , the likes we have never =
seen=20
before.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Richard</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep 11 18:34:21 2005
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From: Harry Veeder <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca>
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"Don't kiss my hand," Saudi king tells citizens

Sun Sep 11, 2005 9:30 AM BST


RIYADH (Reuters) - Saudi Arabia's new King Abdullah has ordered citizens not
to kiss his hand, saying the traditional gesture of respect is degrading and
violates Islam, Saudi newspapers reported on Sunday.

"Kissing hands is alien to our values and morals, and is not accepted by
free and noble souls," Abdullah told a delegation from Al-Baha, in southwest
Saudi Arabia, who came to the royal palace to offer congratulations on his
accession.

"It also leads to bowing, which is a violation of God's law. The faithful
bow to no one but God."

Abdullah became king on August 1 after the death of King Fahd. Thousands of
Saudis flocked to pledge allegiance to him in the days that followed, many
kissing him on the shoulder or stooping to kiss his hand in a sign of
respect and loyalty.

But the king, who has a reputation for modesty in a family better known for
opulence and power, said only a father or mother deserved such deference.

"I announce my complete rejection of this matter, and I ask everyone to
restrain from kissing the hands of anyone but their parents," the monarch
said.


------------------------------------------------------------------------

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That's fine with me.

s

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Jones Beene wrote:
> 





 
> http://www.bushisantichrist.com/
> 
> Check out the "hook 'em horns" hand-signal that Bush (and Laura) are
> constantly flashing to the world, whenever he gets the chance (about
> half way down the page are a half-dozen shots of this strange signal -

Hi All,

Go to MSN and search for "bohemian grove" bush.

Jack Smith

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Subject: New Orleans OR A tail of two hamsters
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Alexandra Kerry; comments at the DNC:

"We were standing on a dock waiting for a boat to take
us on a summer trip. Vanessa, the scientist, had packed
all her animals including her favorite hamster. Our over-zealous
golden retriever got tangled in his leash and knocked the hamster
cage off the dock. We watched as Licorice, the unlucky hamster
bubbled down to a watery doom. That might have been the end of
the story. But my dad jumped in, grabbed an oar, fished the cage
from the water, hunched over the soggy hamster and began to
administer CPR. There were some reports of mouth-to-mouth,
but, I admit that’s probably a trick of memory. He was never
quite right after that, but Licorice lived. Like I said, it may
sound silly. We still laugh about it today. But, to us it was
serious and that’s what mattered to my father."

Jenna Bush; comments at the RNC:

"And we had a hamster, too. Let's just say ours didn't make it."


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 12 08:20:41 2005
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Message-ID: <BE76853CB39E3B47B014207F18386A8F13EA3DEC moulsecoomb.bton.ac.uk>
From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Little Nigerians
Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 16:19:08 +0100
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Steven,

It might be a waste of potential but the burden of guilt shouldn't be on the
West for this little girl and other children of potential in the third
world. Just how much more can you give?

The parents need to start looking at their condition, the corruption in
their countries, the waste of natural and human resources, the denial of
freedom of speech and free markets. There is no dignity in begging and
blaming the white man all the time.

The west has made the change they need to change and meet them half way.
Everybody is waiting - and hoping.


I put it to you that those on the left are a new aristocracy plump on
confiscated wealth. Ethnic minorities (I won't say which ones, there is only
one really, all the others prosper in a few generations) need to know that
they are mugs and this 'concern' for them is not out of love but out of the
desire to gerrymander the vote to win elections. It's the same with the
working class.

As for me, I look for grant money from a commercial perspective (that is why
I do patents) and if I get government money, this offsets what I gave away
in taxes when I least could afford it.

Face it, Free Markets work.

(I did not insinuate that pygmies are generally inferior either, just
inferior at track and field as I would be at weightlifting. People have
different eye colour, hair, skin, height and intelligence.)
Regards,
Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 12 08:27:08 2005
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From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk
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Subject: RE: Find-a-cause, middle class guilt and angst
Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 16:24:58 +0100
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Dr Storms,
Well put, measured and pragmatic. Nobody knows the answers but the answer
can't have a large state interference policy, forcible confiscation of
wealth and a political elite.

I guess we are all right of centre these days from the Reagan/Thatcher era
and still learning. The forces of dark are on the rise again and I see in
Brighton that the Trades Union Congress wants to bring back secondary
picketing... 

The mantra was in my father's day "they're over here nicking our jobs and
our women".
Remi.

-----Original Message-----
From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On
Behalf Of Edmund Storms
Sent: 10 September 2005 18:30
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Find-a-cause, middle class guilt and angst

Not everyone who wants to help his fellow man is "liberal" nor is 
everyone "conservative" who wants people to take care of themselves.  A 
larger number are simply practical.  We acknowledge that a fraction of 
the population does not have the talents and intelligence to become 
completely self sufficient.  Also, a fraction of the population has no 
interest in their fellow man, are completely self-centered, and 
frequently turn to crime.  This is the human condition.  The question 
is, what can be done to make a society stable and productive while such 
people are a normal part of society. Obviously, simply telling the 
simple-minded to shape up and learn a useful skill is not enough. Simply 
letting the intelligent and self-centered people take over the power 
structure does not work either. The problem in the US these days is that 
people look at the problem and suggest arbitrary solutions based on some 
ideal idea. People are not looking to see what works and then reward 
such efforts. The concept of competence has been lost. Unskilled leaders 
are excused for extreme incompetence and dishonesty because they are 
Republican or Democrat, or more to the point these days, because they 
are "conservative Christians". A society can not survive using this 
approach, as we are on the way to finding out.

Regards,
Ed

R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk wrote:

> They're at it again:
> 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/tv_and_radio/4228940.stm
> 
> Who wants to be anybody's **"pet"** project? You want a pet - get a dog.
> It'll follow you lovingly anywhere you want. Ah, but that's what you want
> !?!
> 
> Those on the left should realise that people find their own dignity and
> don't need it handed out to them. Bush gave 7 billion for flood defences
and
> obviously local government didn't use it properly.
> 
> Stop making excuses for ethnic minority behaviour. Call the N.O. violence
> uncivilised, animalistic. Similarly stop coming up with aid and drives for
> the 3rd World and tell it to them straight - re-organise, civilise, then
> we'll invest as equals.
> R.
> 
> .......................................
> Website
> http://luna.bton.ac.uk/~roc1
> .......................................
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 12 08:31:01 2005
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N.O. should be a metaphor for ethnic minorities (there again I can't say
*which* ones even though I am one) to clear out the ghettos, the old
thoughts and practices and start afresh for a new century.

N.O. gave the world Jazz but we can give still more.

.......................................
Website
http://luna.bton.ac.uk/~roc1
.......................................

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Subject: BBC talking sh.t again
Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 16:47:52 +0100
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4230372.stm

So we are all thinking alike but as usual the BBC has its elitist leftwing
agenda.

I'm just gonna love it when broadband becomes better. How are you going to
justify a "license" for computers as people begin to use it for radio and
TV?

Surely the TV license comes up against the human rights charter - you beam
something into my home, that's not my problem. They have the ability with
terrestrial digital to encrypt their shows and they should be doing that.
.......................................
Website
http://luna.bton.ac.uk/~roc1
.......................................

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 12 08:50:59 2005
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Geeks making plug-in hybrids
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See:

http://www.calcars.org/

Photos of people, who look just the way you expect they would:

http://www.calcars.org/priusplusfactsheet-v1.9.pdf

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 12 10:07:41 2005
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Subject: "Oil and Security" paper by G. Schultz and J. Woolsey
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Yup, you read it right. Schultz, the former Sec. of State, and Woolsey of 
the CIA have come out strongly in favor of hybrid cars, and the rapid 
development of plug in hybrids. They also have some interesting things to 
say about recent improvements in biofuels, that fix some of the problems 
Pimentel cites. Here are extracts from a cogent paper they wrote:

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/calcars-news/message/68

With support from people like this, we may actually see this technology 
take off. I just wish we could get them to look at cold fusion.

This paper starts off with a statement that will warm Chris Zell's heart: 
"This paper could well be called, 'It's the Batteries, Stupid.'"

Here are some good statements from the Conclusion:

"The dangers from oil dependence in today's world require us both to look 
to ways to reduce demand for oil and to increase supply of transportation 
fuel by methods beyond the increase of oil production.

The realistic opportunities for reducing demand soon suggest that 
government policies should encourage hybrid gasoline-electric vehicles, 
particularly the battery developments needed to bring plug-in versions 
thereof to the market, and modern diesel technology. . . .

The effects of these policies are multiplicative. All should be pursued 
since it is impossible to predict which will be fully successful or at what 
pace, even though all are today either beginning commercial production or 
are nearly to that point. The battery development for plug-in hybrids is of 
substantial importance and should for the time being replace the current 
r&d emphasis on automotive hydrogen fuel cells.

If even one of these technologies is moved promptly into the market, the 
reduction in oil dependence could be substantial. If several begin to be 
successfully introduced into large-scale use, the reduction could be 
stunning. For example, a 50-mpg hybrid gasoline/electric vehicle, on the 
road today, if constructed from carbon composites would achieve around 100 
mpg. If it were to operate on 85 percent cellulosic ethanol or a similar 
proportion of biodiesel fuel, it would be achieving hundreds of miles per 
gallon of petroleum-derived fuel. If it were a plug-in version operating on 
upgraded lithium batteries so that 20-30 mile trips could be undertaken on 
its overnight charge before it began utilizing liquid fuel at all, it could 
be obtaining in the range of 1000 mpg (of petroleum). . . ."

THAT'S what I'm talkin' about! Woo woo!

- Jed


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Following reading Jones' post in which he gave the URL for Is Bush 
Anti-Christ. com I visited the site and sent the following to the 
webmaster.

It's amazing what you can "prove" with a mixture of truth and lies.

The transliteration of George. I would transliterate it as gimel vav 
resh gimel vav yod which adds up to 3 + 6 + 200 + 6 + 10 = 225 . 
Bush is bet vav shin 2 + 6 + 300 = 308 + 225 = 533 close but no 
cigar. As for the rest of your numerical "proofs", figures don't lie, 
but lairs do figure.

We are in a war with radical Islam, they declared a jihad against us. 
We believe that Islam is this generation's embodiment of Edom, see 
Ezekiel 35 and Obadiah. The Bible makes it clear that Yahweh 
(Jehovah), is the author of this war. America is the two horned beast 
which comes up out of the earth. The first beast is Europe and the 
pagan elements of the Roman Church.

We believe that America is Babylon, Jeremiah 50 - 51. The A C will be 
a Jew. Bush is following the illumaniti's agenda. He behaves like a 
mind control victim. His forcing Israel to give up land is the 
fulfillment of Joel 3. The natural disasters which coincide
with this are well documented, www.watch.org

As for the fundamentalist Christians getting us into a war, it's the 
will of Yahweh, if you think you can do something about it, you're 
wrong.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 12 11:15:41 2005
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Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 14:14:36 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: OFF TOPIC New Orleans water septic but not toxic
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Someone from the CDC commented that the water in New Orleans is septic but 
not toxic -- an important distinction. It contains mainly bacteria and 
biodegradable waste, but maybe not as many chemicals and petrochemicals as 
originally feared. It is a shame they have to pump it into the lake and 
ocean without treating it, but I gather it should not cause long-term harm.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 12 11:18:09 2005
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malloy sez: 

...

> We believe that America is Babylon, Jeremiah 50 - 51.

The other night I watched the movie "DOGMA" again.

There is a revealing scene where Bethany, the heroine, played by Linda Fiorentino, is talking with Rufus, the undocumented 13 (black) apostle, played by Chris Rock. Rufus tells Bethany that God doesn't really have much use for beliefs primarily because beliefs are set in concrete, and as such, are inflexible. You can't reason with a "belief." It's really all about ideas, said Rufus.

>                                                   The A C will be 
> a Jew. Bush is following the illumaniti's agenda. He behaves like a 
> mind control victim. His forcing Israel to give up land is the 
> fulfillment of Joel 3. The natural disasters which coincide
> with this are well documented, www.watch.org
> 
> As for the fundamentalist Christians getting us into a war, it's the 
> will of Yahweh, if you think you can do something about it, you're 
> wrong.

I shall set aside the fact that you now claim Bush is behaving like a "mind control victim" since the many paths we could take this perception of our Commander in Chief down probably wouldn't serve the Vortex discussion group very well. I'll only reiterate a previous comment I've made that suggested that Bush appears to be incapable of manifesting any original thoughts of his own. In my view that's a bad enough handicap for a president to burden the country with.

OTOH, I'm confused here, Thomas. Not too long ago you were making a big point telling us on numerous occasions that Bush was performing G-d's will. But now Bush isn't performing G-d's will? Since when did he suddenly stop performing g-d's will, particularly since you also state there's nothing we can do about the unfolding of g-d's will nor what is about to happen on Earth since it's all been foretold in certain religious text whose messages you claim are infallible, as if they were written in concrete.

It was probably unwise of me to have brought this conundrum up within the Vortex discussion group. It will only encourage you expound more on personal beliefs that have little use within the Vortex discussion group, and it will have been my fault for having encouraged you.

My apologies to Vortex.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 12 11:48:38 2005
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Subject: CF Suppression?
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Is cold fusion being actively suppressed?  Although I'm not
a fan of conspiracy theories, I believe it is.  Is it the big oil
companies?  Nah, they couldn't possibly be more bored with
the idea.  Besides, any company that size usually moves
and makes decisions with the speed of a glacier.  If CF
becomes a viable energy source, they'll just be caught with
their pants down.

I think there might be cold fusion suppression activity 
among government scientists doing nuclear research of
various types.  You have those scientists who are
simply arrogant and lazy enough to believe it just can't be
true, because it goes against the tenets of their standard
model religion.  No amount of experimental evidence will
convince them.  That's not what I'm talking about.

What I mean is active suppression of LENR research and
information for fear of its being used to make fissionable
material by nuclear transmutation.  I came to suspect this
possiblity for a number of reasons.  I was already a little
suspicious about this when I read recently about cluster
impact fusion (CIF) a few months ago.  At first, it seemed 
that credible scientists were, in effect, going to make a case
for LENR.  Papers were being published in mainstream
scientific journals.  CIF seemed to be an established fact.
Nuclear transmutation was happening on the metal targets
of the charged heavy water clusters.

Suddenly, a whole bunch of scientists made a joint state-
ment to the effect that the data were flawed and it couldn't
possibly be working.  End of episode.  Did anyone else
find this a little funny?  You know,....just a little......funny.

Another thing that makes me wonder is the fact that 
individuals can no longer buy heavy water or deuterium.
I mean, what do they think we're going to do, use a 100gm
of heavy water as a neutron moderator in our teeny tiny
nuclear reactors?  I was rather upset when Jed told us about
that retired scientist who couldn't buy any heavy water to
do some CF research.

And finally, I had a personal experience a long, long time
ago that confirms that anything that smacks of cheap isotope
separation is not smiled upon.  I had a student job at the
U.S. Bureau of Mines when I was in college.  Working there
was a much better education on a number of subjects than
any of my college classes could have been.

My job was sort of general lab assistant and was mostly a
sinecure.  I had a lot of free time to mess around and there
were a lot equipment and materials.  I had a nutty idea about
isotope separation.  No expensive uranium hexafluoride
centrifuging and diffusion for me.  I'm a cheap guy.  So I 
asked my boss if I could do a little experimenting on the side
with this idea.  He said it was OK with him as long as it
didn't interfere with what he wanted done.

I couldn't get any uranium because the nuclear section was
more or less off limits to me, and besides the melting point
is too high for the equipment I had available.  To make a
long story short, I was apparently able to get significant 
concentration of Pb207 from the natural isotope mix using
the molten metal and a simple electromagnetic technique. I
will definitely not give the details here for fear of another
MIB visit.

Word spread about my little "science fair project".  I came in
one day and my entire setup was gone.  I was called to the
office of the head of the facility whose title I can't recall...
director?  He told me I was not to waste taxpayer time and
money on my personal projects.  I thought that was kind of
funny since most of the scientists spent a lot of time asleep
at their lab benches.  There were a couple of men in his 
office.  They didn't work there.  They didn't actually have
black suits and sunglasses, but they really looked out of
place and unfriendly.  I was prepared to take this order at
face value until the director told me not to discuss what I
had done with anyone.  The two MIB said nothing and just
sort of glared at me.

A good argument against my little "conspiracy theory" 
would be that Claytor, et. al., continue with their research.

I know there are quite a few lurkers on this list who work or
have worked at government nuclear research facilities.  I've
had a number of off-list emails from some of them.  I'm sure
others on the list have as well.  Now couldn't one of you
lurkers give us just a little bitty hint about this?

M.






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Michael Foster wrote:

>I think there might be cold fusion suppression activity among government 
>scientists doing nuclear research of various types.  You have those 
>scientists who are simply arrogant and lazy enough to believe it just 
>can't be true, because it goes against the tenets of their standard model 
>religion.  No amount of experimental evidence will convince them.  That's 
>not what I'm talking about.

There is no doubt such people are suppressing the field. They make no 
secret of their activity. On the contrary, like Park and Zimmerman, they 
brag about how they suppressed CF.


>What I mean is active suppression of LENR research and information for 
>fear of its being used to make fissionable material by nuclear transmutation.

This possibility does worry many people, including me, although I have no 
idea whether anyone in the government is suppressing CF because of it. I 
get the impression that most people in the government are not well 
informed, to say the least. If they are trying to suppress it, they are not 
doing a very good job, since information is widely available, and I 
distribute 3,000 papers every week, and I have a mirror web site in Beijing.

Before cold fusion went public, Martin Fleischmann asked the U.S. 
government to classify it, and conduct secretly funded research. He was 
worried that it had weapons applications. He still is. I am glad he failed, 
but if in the future cold fusion leads to cheap, widely available weapons 
of mass destruction . . . I guess I will change my mind and regret that it 
was discovered and made public. You can then taunt me, saying: "See? You 
told yourself so."

- Jed


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Michael,

> Suddenly, a whole bunch of scientists made a joint state-
> ment to the effect that the data were flawed and it couldn't
> possibly be working.  End of episode.  Did anyone else
> find this a little funny?  You know,....just a 
> little......funny.

Yes. The whole episode from '89-95 expecially, is extremely 
suspicious and there are many other related "inconsistencies" than 
the "circle-the-wagons" mentality. Over past years, myself and 
others have posted numerous times on the illogic and 
inconsistencies in the official stance and the very distinct 
liklihood that it all relates back to "non-proliferation" and 
"black-project" issues... although exactly "how" it relates is 
unclear. I wonder if Brian Josephson knows the answer:
http://www.tcm.phy.cam.ac.uk/~bdj10/

At his level he should have access to the relevant information (on 
the UK side of the Atlantic, anyway). I hope that he has carefully 
weighed the risk-vs-reward equation, and has made the 
determination that the initial fears are overblown. I think he is 
one person who can be trusted to do that fairly.

I tried to get into escribe to find some of the old posts, but as 
usual it is down... or is it permanently down?

Jones


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Michael Foster wrote:
> Is cold fusion being actively suppressed?  Although I'm not
> a fan of conspiracy theories, I believe it is.  Is it the big oil
> companies?  Nah, they couldn't possibly be more bored with
> the idea.  Besides, any company that size usually moves
> and makes decisions with the speed of a glacier.  If CF
> becomes a viable energy source, they'll just be caught with
> their pants down.

Personally, I don't think CF is being suppressed.  This would require an 
intent and effort to accomplish.  In contrast, I think it is simply 
ignored because most people think it is not real.  A myth has taken hold 
in the human mind, which is the basis for most beliefs in all subjects, 
and this myth directs the approach being take.
> 
> I think there might be cold fusion suppression activity 
> among government scientists doing nuclear research of
> various types.  You have those scientists who are
> simply arrogant and lazy enough to believe it just can't be
> true, because it goes against the tenets of their standard
> model religion.  No amount of experimental evidence will
> convince them.  That's not what I'm talking about.

These people are in the minority, although they started the myth that is 
directing other people's thoughts.  Once the myth is in place,  nothing 
more needs to be done. Society goes the way the myth dictates automatically.
> 
> What I mean is active suppression of LENR research and
> information for fear of its being used to make fissionable
> material by nuclear transmutation.  I came to suspect this
> possiblity for a number of reasons.  I was already a little
> suspicious about this when I read recently about cluster
> impact fusion (CIF) a few months ago.  At first, it seemed 
> that credible scientists were, in effect, going to make a case
> for LENR.  Papers were being published in mainstream
> scientific journals.  CIF seemed to be an established fact.
> Nuclear transmutation was happening on the metal targets
> of the charged heavy water clusters.
> 
> Suddenly, a whole bunch of scientists made a joint state-
> ment to the effect that the data were flawed and it couldn't
> possibly be working.  End of episode.  Did anyone else
> find this a little funny?  You know,....just a little......funny.

In this case, the myth started to break down so that it required a 
little additional effort to get it back in place.  Now all is well.
> 
> Another thing that makes me wonder is the fact that 
> individuals can no longer buy heavy water or deuterium.

This is not true, a proper person can buy heavy-water.  The issue is 
liability.  D2O is a poison.  Therefore, like all such chemicals, it is 
sold only to businesses.

> I mean, what do they think we're going to do, use a 100gm
> of heavy water as a neutron moderator in our teeny tiny
> nuclear reactors?  I was rather upset when Jed told us about
> that retired scientist who couldn't buy any heavy water to
> do some CF research.
> 
> And finally, I had a personal experience a long, long time
> ago that confirms that anything that smacks of cheap isotope
> separation is not smiled upon.  I had a student job at the
> U.S. Bureau of Mines when I was in college.  Working there
> was a much better education on a number of subjects than
> any of my college classes could have been.
> 
> My job was sort of general lab assistant and was mostly a
> sinecure.  I had a lot of free time to mess around and there
> were a lot equipment and materials.  I had a nutty idea about
> isotope separation.  No expensive uranium hexafluoride
> centrifuging and diffusion for me.  I'm a cheap guy.  So I 
> asked my boss if I could do a little experimenting on the side
> with this idea.  He said it was OK with him as long as it
> didn't interfere with what he wanted done.
> 
> I couldn't get any uranium because the nuclear section was
> more or less off limits to me, and besides the melting point
> is too high for the equipment I had available.  To make a
> long story short, I was apparently able to get significant 
> concentration of Pb207 from the natural isotope mix using
> the molten metal and a simple electromagnetic technique. I
> will definitely not give the details here for fear of another
> MIB visit.

Lead is very toxic.  I can understand why someone might not want you 
messing with it.
> 
> Word spread about my little "science fair project".  I came in
> one day and my entire setup was gone.  I was called to the
> office of the head of the facility whose title I can't recall...
> director?  He told me I was not to waste taxpayer time and
> money on my personal projects.  I thought that was kind of
> funny since most of the scientists spent a lot of time asleep
> at their lab benches.  There were a couple of men in his 
> office.  They didn't work there.  They didn't actually have
> black suits and sunglasses, but they really looked out of
> place and unfriendly.  I was prepared to take this order at
> face value until the director told me not to discuss what I
> had done with anyone.  The two MIB said nothing and just
> sort of glared at me.
> 
> A good argument against my little "conspiracy theory" 
> would be that Claytor, et. al., continue with their research.

In the case of Claytor, the issue is one of funding.  At the present 
time, nothing can be done at LANL without a program code. Without 
funding, such a code does not exist. The government does not want people 
to use money authorized for one project to be used on another project. 
If someone wanted to give LANL money to do CF, such a code would be 
generated and the work would be funded.

Regards

Ed
> 
> I know there are quite a few lurkers on this list who work or
> have worked at government nuclear research facilities.  I've
> had a number of off-list emails from some of them.  I'm sure
> others on the list have as well.  Now couldn't one of you
> lurkers give us just a little bitty hint about this?
> 
> M.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
> The most personalized portal on the Web!
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 12 13:20:39 2005
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Ed,

> Personally, I don't think CF is being suppressed.  This would 
> require an intent and effort to accomplish.  In contrast, I 
> think it is simply ignored because most people think it is not 
> real.


Lets dispense with the term "CF" for a moment ...

....you would agree, would you not, that if the electrolytic 
loading of D2 into cathodes of U metal were able to transmute some 
significant percentage of the 238 into fissionable material, then 
there is a huge non-proliferation risk, no?

That is, IMHO, where the prior "official" initial attempts at 
suppression may have arisen. However, I doubt that this kind of 
transmutation can take place in anything over trace amounts (Dash 
et al).

Certainly with thorium, which has been better investigated, the 
evidence indicates that transmutation has the effect of converting 
fertile material to harmless material - which is the opposite of 
what a terrorist would want.

I suspect that people who have looked at the corresponding 
situation with U have come to the similar conclusion - that: just 
as with thorium, there is no added proliferation risk from heavy 
water electrolysis of uranium.

Jones 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 12 14:39:36 2005
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At 02:47 PM 9/12/2005, Michael Foster wrote:

>Is cold fusion being actively suppressed?




   Simply put, yes.

    This is often discussed in detail in the Cold Fusion Times (such as in 
volume 12, number 2
     which is in part at http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html
     [click on the picture for a larger picture of the front page and more 
information].

               Dr. Mitchell Swartz


=========================================================================================

   Cold Fusion Times    http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html
     The journal of the scientific aspects of loading isotopic fuels into 
materials ISSN# 1072-2874

   JET Thermal Products   http://world.std.com/~mica/jet.html
      Working for Safe and More Efficient Heat Products to Serve You







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Edmund Storms wrote:

>In contrast, I think it is simply ignored because most people think it is 
>not real.

That seems to be the case. For example, in a paper that I am preparing at 
this moment, Lautzenhiser & Phelps (Amoco) wrote:


Cold fusion burst upon the scene with great fanfare and little hard 
infor­mation with a press conference in March 1989, when Pons and 
Fleichmann (1) announced they had found anomalous energy associated with an 
electro­chemical cell. Before there were any actual reports in the 
literature, circulation of the preprints was commonplace. There were 
several claims of confirmation over the following few months from diverse 
groups located worldwide (2-9). At the same time there were many statements 
that "cold fusion", at best, was the result of experimental error (10-19). 
Since many "experts" have come out saying that there is nothing to cold 
fusion, the public perception at this time is that cold fusion has mostly 
faded away.


I think that is what happened. While I do not find it strange that these 
self-styled experts claimed there is nothing to it, I find it exceedingly 
strange that so many large companies (later including Amoco) dropped the 
subject just because of what these bozos claimed. You'd think the big 
companies would take the subject more seriously. Apparently major decision 
makers at huge corporations are swayed by public opinion, fad and fashion 
more than we realize -- and probably more than they themselves realize. As 
Gene Mallove used to say, "these people read the newspapers." (Just as "the 
Supreme Court follows the election returns," as Mr. Dooley put it.) Even 
though these companies stood to earn trillions of dollars from this 
discovery, they lost interest and dropped the subject, the way a 
two-year-old who needs a nap will drop a toy, and they did this only 
because a few people condemned the subject. Based on my conversations with 
such people, my impression is that they themselves do not have a firm 
technical grasp of what was claimed, and they simply took other people's 
word without doing their homework.

Cold fusion "faded away" just as L&P said. Looking back at history, many 
other critical breakthroughs also almost faded away because powerful people 
were not interested in them, or never noticed them. When the ENIAC computer 
was in the early stages of development, it was considered so far out and 
unlikely to succeed it attracted little funding and no interest. None of 
the big gun scientists in 1944 knew about it because no one bothered to 
tell them -- because the people who knew had already written it off. Von 
Neumann learned about it by accident during a casual conversation on a 
railroad platform. He became interested, then he joined the project,  and 
from that point on the project gained credibility and importance. If he had 
not, I suppose it might have been canceled at the end of the war, along 
with thousands of other incomplete projects. In 1860, the Transcontinental 
Railroad was stalled because its supporters could not raise money from the 
San Francisco gold rush millionaires. These millionaires would sometimes 
throw away $50,000 a night gambling, but they would not risk investing $10 
million in a railroad that a decade later became the most profitable 
enterprise in history.


>A myth has taken hold in the human mind, which is the basis for most 
>beliefs in all subjects, and this myth directs the approach being take.

On the other hand many counter-myths have circulated about cold fusion. Hal 
Fax told me years ago he was sure that Toyota has already perfected cold 
fusion engines and "they use them in their forklifts." Science-fiction 
movies, cheap television dramas and other popular culture often makes 
references to cold fusion. The screenwriters seem to assume that it is 
real, and it has been suppressed.

- Jed



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I wrote:

>Before cold fusion went public, Martin Fleischmann asked the U.S. 
>government to classify it, and conduct secretly funded research. He was 
>worried that it had weapons applications.

By the way, he is worried about other aspects of it, not transmutation and 
the production of fissionable materials. The 1985 explosion gave him the 
willies.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 12 15:09:06 2005
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: CF Suppression?
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Jones Beene wrote:

>I wonder if Brian Josephson knows the answer:

I doubt he knows more than you or I. He is a smart cookie but he does not 
seem to have any inside knowledge. Of course I do not have any inside 
knowledge either, but I based on conversations with Josephson, I do not get 
the impression he is keeping any secrets about cold fusion.

In general, my impression is that "inside information" and "secret 
government knowledge" seldom amounts to much. I suppose specific tactical 
information is probably often good, but "big picture" analyses and 
judgments of the future are no better than you or I could write, and often 
much worse. I will not bore the audience here with stories I have probably 
already told, but my parents were involved in low-level espionage during 
the Second World War and in the opening stages of the Cold War, and they 
said the State Department and the CIA never knew anything more than you can 
read in the New York Times. I have seen the CIA's semisecret and 
declassified papers about Japan. If I had written stuff like that as an 
undergraduate, I would have gotten an F.

- Jed


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BlankI don't believe CF is being suppressed. It is due to most large =
international corporation and government indiffrence. CEO's are selected =
for their ability to keep their stock in play. The government is a crap =
shoot between soliciting campaign funds and playing off lobbyists. As =
Jesse Unrah once stated.. if a politician can't take money from all 3 =
sides and " stiff" them all, he ain't no politician .

Planning a suppression of CF would take dedicated co-ordination, =
something they lack. Perhaps the correct assumption is that CF is in =
somebody's inbox or outbox. Giving government credit for conspiracy =
planning may be a stretch considering their present performance level.  =
Even the ultimate brain of Karl Rove missed advising the Prez it would =
be wise to scoot over to nawlins pronto. When the politicos miss a shot =
this easy wez in real trouble. CF is way down the list of =
importance..like invisible.

I continue to bank on the notion that notice will come after serious =
applications of "near" CF and adjunct applications emerge. There is an =
increase in research in related technology that have benefitted from CF =
regardless of the drama. Cumulative progress will reach a surge level =
and what appeared to be suppression will be recognized for what it is.. =
indifference.. the "who cares" crowd are simply not interested in =
listening to anyone mentioning peak oil or new energy while on the way =
to play golf, driving their new Hummer the government just handed them =
via a tax break.

Nobody ever went wrong overestimating the incompetence of government.

Richard


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<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Planning a suppression of CF would take dedicated co-ordination, =
something=20
they lack. Perhaps the correct assumption is that CF is in =
somebody's&nbsp;inbox=20
or outbox. Giving government credit for conspiracy planning&nbsp;may be =
a=20
stretch considering their present&nbsp;performance level.&nbsp; Even the =

ultimate brain of Karl Rove missed advising the Prez it would be wise to =
scoot=20
over to nawlins pronto. When the politicos miss a shot this easy wez in =
real=20
trouble. CF is way down the list of importance..like invisible.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>I continue to bank on the notion that notice will come after =
serious=20
applications of "near" CF and adjunct applications emerge. There is an =
increase=20
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regardless of the=20
drama. Cumulative progress will reach a surge level and what appeared to =
be=20
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oil or=20
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<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Nobody ever went wrong overestimating the incompetence of =
government.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Richard</DIV>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 12 16:25:35 2005
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Subject: Re: CF Suppression?
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The whole issue of suppression would be put to rest if someone actually 
built a commercial cold fusion technology.  How can you suppress something 
that is being sold at WalMart?  I think it's a matter of cold fusion being a 
laboratory curiosity at the moment, a rather abstract one at that to most 
people, about as interesting as molecular biology or particle physics.  Even 
if cold fusion can be observed at minute levels, as many of us in this forum 
believe it can, it makes no difference to the general public or most of the 
government for that matter.  I'd chalk it up to more or less government 
incompetence and disinterest, with a sprinkle of suppression thrown in. 
Certainly the U.S. government hasn't been promoting cold fusion research or 
developments (as we all know they have closed the patent office to cold 
fusion and haven't provided an official avenue for funding), so we can't say 
they are promoting cold fusion in any way.  We know they have some interest 
in cold fusion because the U.S. Navy has been researching cold fusion and 
there have been questions raised about national security and cold fusion.  I 
wouldn't be at all surprised if someday it is revealed that there has been a 
"black budget" cold fusion project of some sort in the U.S. Government.  In 
fact, that is highly likely as these energy barons and national security 
parnoidiacs certainly would want to see what cold fusion is really about for 
their own purposes.

I'd say, that the U.S. government's disinterest in cold fusion is part of a 
broader policy of promoting the interests of big oil over all other 
competing energy technologies.  We could almost as easily argue that the 
government is suppressing electric vehicles that could essentially put big 
oil out of business, as they show no interest in developing electric 
vehicles either.  It will be up to the private sector and more likely 
enthusiasts and concerned citizens to bring cold fusion and electric 
vehicles to the market.  David and Goliath.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "OrionWorks" <orionworks charter.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: <orionworks charter.net>
Sent: Monday, September 12, 2005 5:21 PM
Subject: Re: CF Suppression?


>I find myself more in sympathy with Ed's skeptical point of view on the 
>matter of whether the government has actively conspired to suppress CF 
>knowledge as compared to tantalizing questions of "inconsistencies" 
>suggested by the esteemed Mr. Beene. Granted, I could be wrong. Maybe there 
>really is a conspiracy or two lurking behind the walls, but my gut feeling 
>says no.
>
> I've spent a considerable amount of time smoozing with all sorts of folks 
> who hang out in the highly contentious UFO community. Over there, a new 
> conspiracy seems to be born every other day. Without fail most of the UFO 
> related conspiracies have one thing in common: "The Government" doesn't 
> want us to know what's really going on. You know, Dogs and Cat's marrying 
> each other, which, in turn, would cause society to unravel at the seams.
>
> I can only suggest that it is important not to underestimate the power of 
> IGNORANCE, and its partner DENIAL, to act as the proxy behind what is 
> perceived as "conspiracies" to suppress information attributed to the 
> government.
>
> This is not to say nor do I mean imply that the government is not above 
> suppressing information it deems as not suitable for public consumption, 
> particularly if it is considered an issue of national security or an 
> embarrassment. (Sometimes it's hard to tell the difference.)
>
> A good example of someone who obviously has stumbled across some truly 
> extraordinary physical effects, see the Hutchison effect. There are some 
> updated files out at American Antigravity. See:
>
> http://www.americanantigravity.com/articles/214/1/Hutchison-Materials-Effects-Photos
>
> or
>
> http://tinyurl.com/8cjla
>
> There are new downloadable photos in ZIP format showing bizarre effects 
> done to solid metal bars produced in Hutchison's lab. How could the 
> government not be aware of what Hutchison has managed to do to solid 
> metal. However, due to Hutchison's apparent lack of being able to follow 
> anything close to what might be considered a linear scientific approach he 
> has no idea how to reproduce his unique effects on a consistent basis. I'm 
> sure this is precisely how the government would like to keep things, too. 
> I understand he has had on occasion government personnel dropping by to 
> observe the effects, and then they go away. I doubt Hutchison has received 
> any support and/or encouragement from government sources to continue his 
> research. Whenever possible it's best to simply ignore the troublesome 
> individual rather than risking the possibility of making him disappear and 
> all the unwanted questions and publicity that might generate. Meanwhile, 
> since his results remain spurious (just like!
>  many original CF claims) most scientists will never take Hutchison Effect 
> seriously, leaving the government free to discreetly tinker away in their 
> own labs where hopefully a more scientific and linear approach is being 
> followed.
>
> Is this happing with CF as well? My vote is, "no" but I could be wrong.
>
> Regards,
> Steven Vincent Johnson
> www.OrionWorks.com
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 12 16:31:15 2005
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Bassage et al. achieve 110 mpg in a Prius
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The Prius test drive we discussed the other day is complete. The team 
achieved 110 mpg with an unmodified car. Remarkable! See:

http://hybridcars.about.com/od/news/a/100mpgrecord.htm

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05220/550484.stm

1,397 miles, 12.78 gallons, 47 hours . . . wait a second . . . That's 109.3 
mpg.

Average speed 30 mph. That's what I figured. It seems to be most efficient 
at that speed.

- Jed


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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jed Rothwell" <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
To: <vortex-L eskimo.com>
Sent: Monday, September 12, 2005 6:27 PM
Subject: Bassage et al. achieve 110 mpg in a Prius


> The Prius test drive we discussed the other day is complete. The team 
> achieved 110 mpg with an unmodified car. Remarkable! See:
>
> http://hybridcars.about.com/od/news/a/100mpgrecord.htm
>
> http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05220/550484.stm
>
> 1,397 miles, 12.78 gallons, 47 hours . . . wait a second . . . That's 
> 109.3 mpg.
>
> Average speed 30 mph. That's what I figured. It seems to be most efficient 
> at that speed.
>
> - Jed

Nicely done Jed!  More proof we can solve our energy problems. 

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> From: Jed Rothwell 

> The Prius test drive we discussed the other day is complete. 

'we' ?

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From: OrionWorks <orionworks charter.net>
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Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 16:21:26 -0500
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I find myself more in sympathy with Ed's skeptical point of view on the matter of whether the government has actively conspired to suppress CF knowledge as compared to tantalizing questions of "inconsistencies" suggested by the esteemed Mr. Beene. Granted, I could be wrong. Maybe there really is a conspiracy or two lurking behind the walls, but my gut feeling says no.

I've spent a considerable amount of time smoozing with all sorts of folks who hang out in the highly contentious UFO community. Over there, a new conspiracy seems to be born every other day. Without fail most of the UFO related conspiracies have one thing in common: "The Government" doesn't want us to know what's really going on. You know, Dogs and Cat's marrying each other, which, in turn, would cause society to unravel at the seams.

I can only suggest that it is important not to underestimate the power of IGNORANCE, and its partner DENIAL, to act as the proxy behind what is perceived as "conspiracies" to suppress information attributed to the government.

This is not to say nor do I mean imply that the government is not above suppressing information it deems as not suitable for public consumption, particularly if it is considered an issue of national security or an embarrassment. (Sometimes it's hard to tell the difference.)

A good example of someone who obviously has stumbled across some truly extraordinary physical effects, see the Hutchison effect. There are some updated files out at American Antigravity. See:

http://www.americanantigravity.com/articles/214/1/Hutchison-Materials-Effects-Photos

or 

http://tinyurl.com/8cjla

There are new downloadable photos in ZIP format showing bizarre effects done to solid metal bars produced in Hutchison's lab. How could the government not be aware of what Hutchison has managed to do to solid metal. However, due to Hutchison's apparent lack of being able to follow anything close to what might be considered a linear scientific approach he has no idea how to reproduce his unique effects on a consistent basis. I'm sure this is precisely how the government would like to keep things, too. I understand he has had on occasion government personnel dropping by to observe the effects, and then they go away. I doubt Hutchison has received any support and/or encouragement from government sources to continue his research. Whenever possible it's best to simply ignore the troublesome individual rather than risking the possibility of making him disappear and all the unwanted questions and publicity that might generate. Meanwhile, since his results remain spurious (just like!
  many original CF claims) most scientists will never take Hutchison Effect seriously, leaving the government free to discreetly tinker away in their own labs where hopefully a more scientific and linear approach is being followed.

Is this happing with CF as well? My vote is, "no" but I could be wrong.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

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Terry Blanton wrote:

"> The Prius test drive we discussed the other day is complete. 

'we' ?"

Er, yeah. You here. Me elswhere.

Hey, John Coviello wants to give me credit for the accomplishment. I had nothing to do with it, but I am happy to share the credit.

- Jed



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 12 17:51:48 2005
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John Coviello writes:

"I'd say, that the U.S. government's disinterest . . ."

Uninterest! Lack of interest! "Disinterest" would be good. We want people to make disinterested (unbiased) judgements.

Yes, I know that some dictionaries list "indifference," but I say No.

And by the way, let's not be too critical of governments. The governments of Italy, France and Japan have done more for cold fusion than most corporations, the state of Utah did a great job (as I told a Salt Lake city reporter the other day), and the U.S. government has supported some excellent work. They are way ahead of all but a handfull of corporations. This is supposed to be a capitalist society, so where are the corporations?

- Jed



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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jed Rothwell" <jedrothwell mindspring.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Monday, September 12, 2005 8:43 PM
Subject: Re: Bassage et al. achieve 110 mpg in a Prius


> Terry Blanton wrote:
>
> "> The Prius test drive we discussed the other day is complete.
>
> 'we' ?"
>
> Er, yeah. You here. Me elswhere.
>
> Hey, John Coviello wants to give me credit for the accomplishment. I had 
> nothing to do with it, but I am happy to share the credit.
>
> - Jed

I guess you were quoting from the article you linked to?  I thought since 
you ran your own Prius tests, perhaps you had done this test as well. 
Perhaps you could test out your Prius at 30 MPH and see if you can acheive 
similar results? 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 12 18:03:12 2005
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> 
> From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
> Date: 2005/09/12 Mon PM 09:01:37 EDT
> To: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
> Subject: Re: Bassage et al. achieve 110 mpg in a Prius
> 
> > From: Jed Rothwell 
> 
> > Terry Blanton wrote:
> > 
> > "> The Prius test drive we discussed the other day is complete. 
> > 
> > 'we' ?"
> > 
> > Er, yeah. You here. Me elswhere.
> > 
> > Hey, John Coviello wants to give me credit for the accomplishment. I had nothing to do with it, but I am happy to share the credit.
> 
> http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l%40eskimo.com/msg07720.html
> 
> You wish to share nothing Jed, in your own words.  You needed help converting files for LENR.org and I and my staff gave many hours to help you.  You still hate MS Word?  
> 
> I enjoyed helping you with your effort on the web page until, one day, you so much as said that you would take all the credit no matter who helped you. 
> 
> Do you remember?  Is a simple acknowledgement so painful?
> 
> I used to call you, Gene, and (God bless him) Chris the "Three Musketeers".  I hereby retract that statement.  The motto "One for all and all for one"  applies not to you.
> 
> I leave this forum to you.  I will, however, continue to defend the truth.
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 12 18:16:30 2005
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Terry Blanton writes:

"You wish to share nothing Jed, in your own words.  You needed help converting files for LENR.org and I and my staff gave many hours to help you.  You still hate MS Word?  

I enjoyed helping you with your effort on the web page until, one day, you so much as said that you would take all the credit no matter who helped you. 

Do you remember?  Is a simple acknowledgement so painful?"

Goodness! I was joking! Merely kidding! Of course I gave you great credit, and told everyone, especially Jean-Paul, how much you and others had helped. I am sure I must have told you that.

I cannot believe anyone would take me seriously when I say something like that -- especially someone who knows me. And especially when I copy the message to the person I am joshing! Why would I deliberately upset someone who has gone to all that trouble to assist?

Apparently we do not share the same sense of humor. If you seriously thought I really meant take all the credit, I sincerely apologize for the misunderstanding.

- Jed



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John Coviello writes:

"I guess you were quoting from the article you linked to?"

Right.


"I thought since 
you ran your own Prius tests, perhaps you had done this test as well. 
Perhaps you could test out your Prius at 30 MPH and see if you can acheive 
similar results?"

I did indeed test it, in Frederick county Maryland (low, rolling hills) and in Virginia (mountains). I found it works best around 30 mph in low hills. I reached as much 70 mpg for 10 or 15 minutes (3 test segments). The people who reached 110 mpg practiced a great deal, and they are engineers who understand the car much better than I do.

- Jed



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From: Harry Veeder <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: CF Suppression?
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Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Before cold fusion went public, Martin Fleischmann asked the U.S.
> government to classify it, and conduct secretly funded research. He was
> worried that it had weapons applications. He still is. I am glad he failed,
> but if in the future cold fusion leads to cheap, widely available weapons
> of mass destruction . . . I guess I will change my mind and regret that it
> was discovered and made public. You can then taunt me, saying: "See? You
> told yourself so."
> 


Do the benefits of CF research out weigh the risks?



Harry

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> 
> From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
> Date: 2005/09/12 Mon PM 09:34:34 EDT> To: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
> Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: Bassage et al. achieve 110 mpg in a Prius]
> 
> > From: Jed Rothwell> 
> 
> > Goodness! I was joking! Merely kidding! Of course I gave you great credit, and told everyone, especially Jean-Paul, how much you and others had helped. I am sure I must have told you that.
> 
> Odd sense of humor.  I search LENR.org and find no acknowledgement page.  Surely, Mike Carrell deserves an ack?
> 
> BTW, my staff's efforts preceeded ICCF11.
> 
> Sorry, I don't buy it.
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 12 18:54:10 2005
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell mindspring.com>
Reply-To: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
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Harry Veeder writes:

"Do the benefits of CF research outweigh the risks?"

I hope so! I think so. I guess we will not know until it is developed. The risks seem unknowable at this stage.

The risks of continuing to use fossil fuel seem much larger, in any case.

- Jed







From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 12 19:06:26 2005
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From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: Bassage et al. achieve 110 mpg in a Prius]
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> From: Jed Rothwell

> It's British. What can I say?

You are not British.

>> "I search LENR.org and find no acknowledgement page.  Surely, Mike Carrell deserves an ack?":
 
> Well, he did not ask for one, and neither did you, for that matter. Do you want one?

Absolutely not.

>> "Sorry, I don't buy it."
> 
> Then you are not very observant,

Not something that I am oft accused.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 12 19:29:17 2005
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell mindspring.com>
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Terry Blanton writes:

>> It's British. What can I say?
>
>You are not British."

Ah, but as Chris Tinsley used to say, I might as well be, for all the good it does me.


>> "I search LENR.org and find no acknowledgement page.  Surely, Mike Carrell deserves an ack?":
>
>> Well, he did not ask for one, and neither did you, for that matter. Do you want one?
>
>Absolutely not.

Well, then why are you complaining now?!? What's the point? What can I do to make ammends, if not this? I hate to think you are secretly harboring a grudge.

In any case, I do apologize, and I will leave it at that.

- Jed



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 12 19:40:21 2005
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From: "RC Macaulay" <walhalla cvtv.net>
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Tsk! Tsk!, Now girls, lets don't air our linen in public <grin> Let it 
suffice to state that the mpg experienced varies greatly. For example, my 
neighbor owns a Prius and after some learning experience , he achieves up 
from 150  mpg depending on intermittant mileage and recharging patterns.

Richard

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Terry Blanton" <commengr bellsouth.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Monday, September 12, 2005 8:38 PM
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: Bassage et al. achieve 110 mpg in a Prius]]


>>
>> From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
>> Date: 2005/09/12 Mon PM 09:34:34 EDT> To: Jed Rothwell 
>> <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: Bassage et al. achieve 110 mpg in a Prius]
>>
>> > From: Jed Rothwell>
>>
>> > Goodness! I was joking! Merely kidding! Of course I gave you great 
>> > credit, and told everyone, especially Jean-Paul, how much you and 
>> > others had helped. I am sure I must have told you that.
>>
>> Odd sense of humor.  I search LENR.org and find no acknowledgement page. 
>> Surely, Mike Carrell deserves an ack?
>>
>> BTW, my staff's efforts preceeded ICCF11.
>>
>> Sorry, I don't buy it.
>>
>
> 


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 12 19:48:12 2005
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell mindspring.com>
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Subject: Re: CF Suppression? [Copy 2?]
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John Coviello writes:

>> This is supposed to be a capitalist society, so where are the 
>> corporations?
>
>Protecting their interests and markets.  We live under crony capitialism in 
>the U.S.  Let's face it, there probably is a lot more money to be made in 
>fossil fuel fuels and nuclear fusion than cold fusion, so the corporations 
>go where the money is. 

No doubt that is true, but I think you miss the point. Exxon may indeed be protecting its interests. And I am sure there is more money in fossil fuel than in cold fusion -- at least measured in dollars per MJ. Although CF it will be obscenely profitable for the first 30 years or so, like computers in the golden age of IBM, before the hardware become a commodity.

But the thing is, take someone like Bill Gates. He is not making any money in energy. If he were to take a risk and fund a start-up to develop CF, he could take away all of Exxon's business. Hundreds of billions of dollars would fall into his lap, for practically no effort. Most revolutionary technology is developed by start-up companies, but these companies are often funded by wealthy people. So I should be asking, "where are the start up companies that want to eat Exxon's lunch?"

Perhaps there are no start ups because this is "crony capitalism," as Coviello says, but it hard for me to believe that cronies would be so loyal to one another. In the late 19th century it was legal for manufacturers to get together and set prices. Later, this was banned by anti-trust laws. However, back when it was okay, people said that after the price-fixing meeting broke up, the prices would hold for the length of time it took the negotiators to reach a telegraph office and secretly underbid their competition. There was no loyalty! In Japan, price fixing is rampant, and it is featured in scandals on the nightly news, but if Mitsubishi or some other company finds a way to bankrupt the oil companies by taking their  business away with cold fusion, I have no doubt they will do it . . . Unless overlapping directorships or stockholders prevent them. Surely there is enough unattached capital (money not beholden to anyone) to develop CF. A few hundred million would suffice, I think.

- Jed



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From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
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Subject: Progress report from Frank Znidarsic
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-------------------------------1126580059
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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I have continued with my work on new energy.  I believe that I have  made 
considerable progress with this effort.  This progress involves some  spin off 
work.  This work has lead me to a possible unification of Special  Relativity 
and Quantum Physics.  See page 11 on the link below.
 
_http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapter7.html_ 
(http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapter7.html) 
 
 
My work centers on the transitional Quantum State.  I believe that the  
natural forces interact strongly during the Quantum transition.  I also  believe 
that this strong interaction can be used to harness each of the 4  natural 
forces.  Several years ago I came up with my theorem.  It  states, "The constants 
of the motion tend toward the electromagnetic in a Bose  condensate that is 
stimulated at a dimensional frequency of one-megaherz  meter.  This theorem 
describes the velocity of the transitional Quantum  State.  My belief in this 
theorem has helped me to continue.  Most  recently I have computed the energy 
levels of the atoms, the mass of the W  particle, the intensity of spectral 
emission from this understating of the  transitional Quantum State.  See Chapters 10, 
11, and 12.
 
_http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chaptera.html_ 
(http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chaptera.html) 
 
_http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chaptera.html_ 
(http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chaptera.html) 
 
_http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapterc.html_ 
(http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapterc.html) 
 
 
I had great hope of getting some of this work published in a peer reviewed  
journal.  I have received the usual turse rebuffs wrong journal, not the  kind 
of material we are looking for, and cold fusion is not workable.  Some  narrow 
minded reviewers have taken the time to slam me hard.  See the  comments in 
Chapter 0
 
_http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapter0.html_ 
(http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapter0.html) 
 
 
I now have completed the theoretical models that I wanted.  My work is  
complete in this area.  I have submitted to the journals that I  desired.  My 
efforts in submitting have now been abandoned.  I  plan to take a 6 month respite 
and do something else like learn to speak Spanish  or play the piano.  To date 
none of my experiments has produced anomalous  energy.  I have no doubt, 
however, that my work leads to  antigravitational propulsion and to new sources of 
energy.  The  resulting technologies could take mankind to the stars.
 
If you enter into the index page I learned to write softward that keeps  
track of your name and chapters read.  If nothing else, I have learned a  lot.
 
 
_http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/index.html_ 
(http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/index.html) 
 
 
Frank Znidarsic
 
 (http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapterb.html)  
 
 (http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chaptera.html)  
 
 
 
 

-------------------------------1126580059
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3DUS-ASCII">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1479" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY id=3Drole_body style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY:=20=
Arial"=20
bottomMargin=3D7 leftMargin=3D7 topMargin=3D7 rightMargin=3D7><FONT id=3Drol=
e_document=20
face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D2>
<DIV>I have continued with my work on new energy.&nbsp; I believe that I hav=
e=20
made considerable progress with this effort.&nbsp; This progress involves so=
me=20
spin off work.&nbsp; This work has lead me to a possible unification of Spec=
ial=20
Relativity and Quantum Physics.&nbsp; See page 11 on the link below.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A=20
href=3D"http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapter7.html">http://www.angelf=
ire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapter7.html</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>My work centers on the transitional Quantum State.&nbsp; I believe that=
 the=20
natural forces interact strongly during the Quantum transition.&nbsp; I also=
=20
believe that this strong interaction can be used to harness each of the 4=20
natural forces.&nbsp; Several years ago I came up with my theorem.&nbsp; It=20
states, "The constants of the motion tend toward the electromagnetic in a Bo=
se=20
condensate that is stimulated at a dimensional frequency of one-megaherz=20
meter.&nbsp; This theorem describes the velocity of the transitional Quantum=
=20
State.&nbsp; My belief in this theorem has helped me to continue.&nbsp; Most=
=20
recently I have computed the energy levels of the atoms, the mass of the W=20
particle, the intensity of spectral emission from this&nbsp;understating of=20=
the=20
transitional Quantum State.&nbsp; See Chapters 10, 11, and 12.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A=20
href=3D"http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chaptera.html">http://www.angelf=
ire.com/scifi2/zpt/chaptera.html</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A=20
href=3D"http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chaptera.html">http://www.angelf=
ire.com/scifi2/zpt/chaptera.html</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A=20
href=3D"http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapterc.html">http://www.angelf=
ire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapterc.html</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>I had great hope of getting some of this work published in a peer revie=
wed=20
journal.&nbsp; I have received the usual turse rebuffs wrong journal, not th=
e=20
kind of material we are looking for, and cold fusion is not workable.&nbsp;=20=
Some=20
narrow minded reviewers have taken the time to slam me hard.&nbsp; See the=20
comments in Chapter 0</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A=20
href=3D"http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapter0.html">http://www.angelf=
ire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapter0.html</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>I now have completed the theoretical models that I wanted.&nbsp; My wor=
k is=20
complete in this area.&nbsp; I have submitted to the journals that I=20
desired.&nbsp; My efforts in&nbsp;submitting have now been abandoned.&nbsp;=20=
I=20
plan to take a 6 month respite and do something else like learn to speak Spa=
nish=20
or play the piano.&nbsp; To date none of my experiments has produced anomalo=
us=20
energy.&nbsp; I have no doubt, however, that my work&nbsp;leads to=20
antigravitational propulsion and to new&nbsp;sources of energy.&nbsp; The=20
resulting technologies could take mankind to the stars.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>If you enter into the index page I learned to write softward that keeps=
=20
track of your name and chapters read.&nbsp; If nothing else, I have learned=20=
a=20
lot.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A=20
href=3D"http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/index.html">http://www.angelfire=
.com/scifi2/zpt/index.html</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Frank Znidarsic</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A=20
href=3D"http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapterb.html"></A>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A=20
href=3D"http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chaptera.html"></A>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>

-------------------------------1126580059--

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Subject: progress report from Frank Znidarsic corrected
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the corrected link to chapter 11
 
_http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/index.html_ 
(http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/index.html) 
 
Frank Znidarsic

-------------------------------1126580499
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3DUS-ASCII">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1479" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY id=3Drole_body style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY:=20=
Arial"=20
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<DIV>the corrected link to chapter 11</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A=20
href=3D"http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/index.html">http://www.angelfire=
.com/scifi2/zpt/index.html</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Frank Znidarsic</DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>

-------------------------------1126580499--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 12 20:48:11 2005
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From: Harry Veeder <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: CF Suppression?
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Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Harry Veeder writes:
> 
> "Do the benefits of CF research outweigh the risks?"
> 
> I hope so! I think so. I guess we will not know until it is developed. The
> risks seem unknowable at this stage.
> 
> The risks of continuing to use fossil fuel seem much larger, in any case.
> 
> - Jed
> 

Well let me put it this way...it is hard to imagine how wind power research
could pose a threat to humanity.

Harry

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Harry Veeder writes:

>> The risks of continuing to use fossil fuel seem much larger, in any case.
>> 
>
>Well let me put it this way...it is hard to imagine how wind power research
>could pose a threat to humanity.

That is a good point, and I am a big fan of wind power. But as I showed in my book, cold fusion has revolutionary potential far beyond wind power, or even plasma fusion or space-based solar. I think it is worth the risk, but then, I do not know what the risks are, so it is hard to judge.

I guess it is a matter of taste, or inclination. I prefer to take risks and to move forward and confront whatever threat a novel discovery may present. 

- Jed



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Subject:  CF Suppression?
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Jed Rothwell posted;

There is no doubt such people are suppressing the field. They make no 
secret of their activity. On the contrary, like Park and Zimmerman, 
they brag about how they suppressed CF.

What about the banning of heavy water? I realize that large 
quantities of it could be used to build a reactor, but in gram 
quantities, AFAIK, they have any military applications, so why was 
the researcher unable to procure some?

I read a website about the Indian Atomic Agency having built a plant 
which separated it a low cost. If I wanted some, I would find someone 
in India to send me some. I recall seeing a machine advertised in 
Infinite Energy which, I assume, could concentrate it. I have do idea 
about the price.

I agree with Dr. Schwartz that the technology is being suppressed. By 
the scientific establishment if no one else. I realize that they have 
their pet cash cow to protect, but people like Parksie and Zimmerman 
are, IMHO, smart enough to know better

Earlier Jones posted;

Does anyone remember the sensationally devilish and highly stylized 
role of Robert De Niro in "Angel Heart" ? Bobby imbues the satanic 
role with just the right amount of sardonic humor and restrained 
menace,

I have seen that movie. bloody, but a grabber of a story line. I 
particularly enjoyed the lawyer Louis Cypher.
--============_-1085520068==_ma============
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<!doctype html public "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<html><head><style type="text/css"><!--
blockquote, dl, ul, ol, li { padding-top: 0 ; padding-bottom: 0 }
 --></style><title>CF Suppression?</title></head><body>
<div>Jed Rothwell posted;<br>
<br>
There is no doubt such people are suppressing the field. They make no
secret of their activity. On the contrary, like Park and Zimmerman,
they brag about how they suppressed CF.<br>
</div>
<div>What about the banning of heavy water? I realize that large
quantities of it could be used to build a reactor, but in gram
quantities, AFAIK, they have any military applications, so why was the
researcher unable to procure some?</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>I read a website about the Indian Atomic Agency having built a
plant which separated it a low cost. If I wanted some, I would find
someone in India to send me some. I recall seeing a machine advertised
in Infinite Energy which, I assume, could concentrate it. I have do
idea about the price.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>I agree with Dr. Schwartz that the technology is being
suppressed. By the scientific establishment if no one else. I realize
that they have their pet cash cow to protect, but people like Parksie
and Zimmerman are, IMHO, smart enough to know better</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Earlier Jones posted;</div>
<div><br></div>
<div><font face="Arial" color="#000000">Does anyone remember the
sensationally devilish&nbsp;and highly stylized role of Robert De Niro
in &quot;Angel Heart&quot; ? Bobby imbues the satanic role with just
the right amount of sardonic humor and restrained menace,</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" color="#000000"><br></font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" color="#000000">I have seen that movie.
bloody, but a grabber of a story line. I particularly enjoyed the
lawyer Louis Cypher.</font></div>
</body>
</html>
--============_-1085520068==_ma============--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 13 02:11:27 2005
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I posted

>
>Bush is following the illumaniti's agenda. He behaves like a
>  > mind control victim.

And Steven Johnson replied;

>I shall set aside the fact that you now claim Bush is behaving like 
>a "mind control victim In my view that's a bad enough handicap for a 
>president to burden the country with.

So we agree that Bush appears to be following someone's agenda?

The point of my posting was that the author of Bush is Anti Christ is 
making some valid points. OTOH, his Gemetria is beyond fast and 
loose, he butchers the Hebrew,  and uses many non sequiturs, and I 
wasn't going to let that pass.

I just finished reading Fleshing out Skull and Bones, which includes 
three chapters of George Bush (41) an Unauthorized Biography, 
(available online), and two books by Antony Sutton. They make the 
case that the world is the way it is, by the design of evil people.

I spend a lot of time listening to talkers on Right Wing Radio, who 
blindly defend the way things are. This covers a lot of things that I 
don't like, and am not going to defend.
>
>OTOH, I'm confused here, Thomas. Not too long ago you were making a 
>big point telling us on numerous occasions that Bush was performing 
>G-d's will. But now Bush isn't performing G-d's will?

Since the outcome is prophecized, I guess that you could say that it 
is G-d's will. I think that both G-d and Bush are making the best of 
a bad situation.

>  Since when did he suddenly stop performing g-d's will, particularly 
>since you also state there's nothing we can do about the unfolding 
>of g-d's will nor what is about to happen on Earth since it's all 
>been foretold in certain religious text whose messages you claim are 
>infallible, as if they were written in concrete.

We think that his speech telling Israel to withdraw to their 1948 
boarders was the Dividing of the Land. While prophecized, G-d doesn't 
like it.

>
>It was probably unwise of me to have brought this conundrum up 
>within the Vortex discussion group. It will only encourage you 
>expound more on personal beliefs that have little use within the 
>Vortex

But it does make for an interesting discussion.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 13 03:32:41 2005
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May be, if it does work, it just not as interesting as people make out. I'd
go down the elemental transmutation route if I were you because that seems
to be your niche.

It's a kind of CF-centric view of the world.

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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jed Rothwell" <jedrothwell mindspring.com>
To: <vortex-L eskimo.com>
Sent: Monday, September 12, 2005 10:47 PM
Subject: Re: CF Suppression? [Copy 2?]


> John Coviello writes:
>
>>> This is supposed to be a capitalist society, so where are the
>>> corporations?
>>
>>Protecting their interests and markets.  We live under crony capitialism 
>>in
>>the U.S.  Let's face it, there probably is a lot more money to be made in
>>fossil fuel fuels and nuclear fusion than cold fusion, so the corporations
>>go where the money is.
>
> No doubt that is true, but I think you miss the point. Exxon may indeed be 
> protecting its interests. And I am sure there is more money in fossil fuel 
> than in cold fusion -- at least measured in dollars per MJ. Although CF it 
> will be obscenely profitable for the first 30 years or so, like computers 
> in the golden age of IBM, before the hardware become a commodity.
>
> But the thing is, take someone like Bill Gates. He is not making any money 
> in energy. If he were to take a risk and fund a start-up to develop CF, he 
> could take away all of Exxon's business. Hundreds of billions of dollars 
> would fall into his lap, for practically no effort. Most revolutionary 
> technology is developed by start-up companies, but these companies are 
> often funded by wealthy people. So I should be asking, "where are the 
> start up companies that want to eat Exxon's lunch?"
>
> Perhaps there are no start ups because this is "crony capitalism," as 
> Coviello says, but it hard for me to believe that cronies would be so 
> loyal to one another. In the late 19th century it was legal for 
> manufacturers to get together and set prices. Later, this was banned by 
> anti-trust laws. However, back when it was okay, people said that after 
> the price-fixing meeting broke up, the prices would hold for the length of 
> time it took the negotiators to reach a telegraph office and secretly 
> underbid their competition. There was no loyalty! In Japan, price fixing 
> is rampant, and it is featured in scandals on the nightly news, but if 
> Mitsubishi or some other company finds a way to bankrupt the oil companies 
> by taking their  business away with cold fusion, I have no doubt they will 
> do it . . . Unless overlapping directorships or stockholders prevent them. 
> Surely there is enough unattached capital (money not beholden to anyone) 
> to develop CF. A few hundred million would suffice, I !
> think.
>
> - Jed

That is one of the big arguments "skeptics" use against the reality of cold 
fusion.  If it actually works as proponents claim, why isn't one of those 
always eager venture capitalists funding research into this technology that 
could be the next big thing with a massive return on investment?  Not a bad 
question really.  My answer would be that cold fusion is still in the basic 
research stage, just starting to enter commercialization stage, so it hasn't 
really caught the attention of the venture capitalists yet, especially when 
big bucks can be made on say tar sands with the current price of oil, there 
are plenty of other energy technologies they can invest in that can 
demonstrate a return on investment.  Venture capitalists are interested in 
demonstratable returns and basic research is a money pit with little promise 
of any return on investment.  Actually, we are starting to see some seed 
money flow into cold fusion with an angel investor funding Entergenics of 
Israel and Solar Limited buying D2Fusion and perhaps investors providing 
funding to iESi (who knows?).  So, we slowly but surely seem to be turning 
that corner.

It will be fun to turn on CNN one day and watch Lou Dobbs talk about the big 
cold fusion venture capitalist craze.

I think big corporations avoid cold fusion the same reason why they avoid 
things like funding energy efficiency or electric cars.  Inertia and lack of 
a clear return on investment.  As we all know, corporate America is 
concerned with the next quarter, not the next decade of energy use.  They 
are very short term in their outlook.  If money can be made on fossil fuels 
next quarter that is what they focus on. Cold fusion is ignored just like 
every other technology that doesn't offer immediate returns.  Look at how 
hybrids have been developed.  Did corporate America take the lead?  No, it 
was the Japanese who had the vision to fund hybrid research and bring 
hybrids to the market.  They might eventually win big on that decision and 
corporate America will play catch up.  That is the same with cold fusion. 
Our corporations and venture capitalists will get into the game when it is 
obvious that money can be made.  The U.S. government's indifference and even 
hostility to cold fusion research and patents certainly doesn't help to 
change the atmosphere.  It will be up to cold fusion entrepreneurs to bring 
a workable technology to the market that sparks major interest.  Things can 
change quickly, so be prepared for cold fusion to suddenly get really big if 
something commercial hit the markets in coming years. 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 13 08:32:16 2005
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From: "John Steck" <johnsteck tetrahelix.com>
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Subject: RE: Mild eugenics and social engineering
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 10:30:53 -0500
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Harrumph! Harrumph!  8^)

-----Original Message-----
From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk [mailto:R.O.Cornwall@brighton.ac.uk] 
Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2005 6:56 AM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Mild eugenics and social engineering


Further to that, you should get out more from your mansions and your
cloistered upper middle class existence and go take a walk (carry a gun or
don't do it at night) around the housing estates (housing projects) and see
what your hands on, left-wing *social engineering* does.

Take not of the waste of money spent in renovating these properties only to
have them re-vandalised. The smell of piss, puke and old syringes scattered
everywhere. Routine violence. 
Teenage pregnancies.
*Poor genetic selection pressures* (Reverse evolution)
And more.

No, the human brain is a remarkable resilient thing. The body is pretty much
optimised to protect it in a variety of environmental conditions. Similarly
it doesn't take many generations to get some good brain genes - 2 to 3.

It's the nature-nurture question and if you've every bred animals, some
things like temperament and intelligence are hard to train.

At least on the right we don't advocate stealing other people's wealth for
pet social projects. We just let it happen 'organically' by economic
pressure.

I tried talking about eugenics to my Dad once who is a dyed in the wool
lefty. Just how many pygmies do you see in the 100M or the high jump? Now,
how many of West African decent do you see in the short to middle distance
events or Kenyans and Ugandans in long distance? What about strength
competitions - usually the Scandinavians, especially the Icelandic walk off
with that one? Or what about some martial arts - an expert told me once (7th
Dan) that Karate favours the more stocky short builds (and Judo is like
wrestling) and Tae-Kwon-Do favours long limbed individuals.


You on the left have many taboos and hold back progress. You are scared to
think the un-thinkable. What counts as clever and wins kudos with your peers
is righty-bashing. Look at this FEMA business and this whole big or small
gov. in the light of it.

I put it to you that the left is not more sincere in matters of poverty or
social justice but just as f.ck.d up, racist and classist and patronising
with its system of inverted snobbery - tck! Talk about Barbara Bush!! Do you
know what it's like getting patronised by some upper middle class lefty!?
Next time it happens, I'll tell 'em f.ck off and I don't care if it's the
Queen. "Oh, you've done quite well for yourself." Naf 'orf maam!

Science is about honesty - social science too. I guess those of 'high birth'
are always trying to find a role for themselves. How parasitic to patronise
the poor and immigrants.

Incidentally, the highest IQ measured of over 200 was to a Nigerian girl.
Remi.

-----Original Message-----
From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On
Behalf Of R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk
Sent: 10 September 2005 12:22
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: RE: YK2, gurus, economics, mild eugenics.

Jed, Steven,
Come off it, it's science.
R.

-----Original Message-----
From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On
Behalf Of OrionWorks
Sent: 08 September 2005 17:05
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Cc: orionworks charter.net
Subject: RE: YK2, gurus, economics, mild eugenics.

> From: R.O.Cornwall

...

> Jed,
> On education: You can take the child out of the ghetto
> but can you take out the ghetto out of the child...
> 
> This is controversial but hey, we like that stuff on Vo. Humans are 
> subject to the laws of genetics as other
> animals: if I look at people around Deptford in SE London
> I see many descendants of dock workers - they are
> thickset and none too bright (and violent). If I see descendants of 
> plantation slaves (as opposed to house slaves), they too are thickset 
> and thick.
> 
> Sincerely I believe that the 3rd world should exercise
> mild eugenics - marry off the clever and wealthy to
> create a middle class who would then go on to
> fill the professional and administrative jobs. The
> middle class make a society work.
> 
> In societies with old cultures and religions they simply excel 
> academically
> - Jews, Chinese, Koreans, Japanese and Asians.
> 
> This is not PC but I advocate tough love.
> Remi.


I might be wrong on who the author is but I believe Carl Sandburg was
responsible for writing the following simple poem:

He who knows not, and knows not that he knows not,
He is a fool.
Shun him.

He who knows not, and knows that he knows not,
He is simple.
Teach him.

He who knows, and knows not that he knows,
He is asleep.
Wake him.

He who knows, and knows that he knows,
He is wise.
Follow him.


After reading your recent comments I might suggest that you consider very
carefully where such opinions might fit in with Mr. Sandburg's poem.

Hint: It is wise not to advocate anything that you would not be willing to
be subjected to yourself, including any judgments the state might make
concerning the value of your genetic heritage.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 13 08:32:33 2005
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From: "John Steck" <johnsteck tetrahelix.com>
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Subject: RE: CF Suppression?
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 10:30:53 -0500
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Development isn't, commercialization is.  Not just CF but anything that
shows any possibility of destabilizing the world economy by attacking one of
the main support pillars (oil/energy, cheap labor, raw materials, commerce).
Just as the argument that there can be no other intelligent life forms in
the galaxy, it is a hard argument to sell that all the creative &
resourceful imaginations on this planet have not throughout history created
viable alternative energy sources.  Probability and chaos theory alone
should be sufficient leave that door open.  Couple that with observed self
organization of chemical structures following nothing more than basic
entropy the bell curve shifts it from "probable" to "likely".

A very intoxicating theory has stuck with me ever since being exposed to it.
What if we are the architects of our own reality?  Not so much exploration
and discovery but actual creation through true belief?  Hard to prove unless
you believed you could, eh?  Ha ha Certainly would explain the exotics from
the likes of Schauberger, Tesla, Keeley that have never been able to be
replicated.  Extend that to telekinesis, faith healing, miracles... Is it
that surprising that the harder we seem to look the more we find almost
exactly what we were looking for?

Conceive it, believe it, achieve it.

-john


-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Foster [mailto:michael.foster excite.com] 
Sent: Monday, September 12, 2005 1:47 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: CF Suppression?



Is cold fusion being actively suppressed?  Although I'm not
a fan of conspiracy theories, I believe it is.  Is it the big oil companies?
Nah, they couldn't possibly be more bored with the idea.  Besides, any
company that size usually moves and makes decisions with the speed of a
glacier.  If CF becomes a viable energy source, they'll just be caught with
their pants down.

I think there might be cold fusion suppression activity 
among government scientists doing nuclear research of
various types.  You have those scientists who are
simply arrogant and lazy enough to believe it just can't be true, because it
goes against the tenets of their standard model religion.  No amount of
experimental evidence will convince them.  That's not what I'm talking
about.

What I mean is active suppression of LENR research and information for fear
of its being used to make fissionable material by nuclear transmutation.  I
came to suspect this possiblity for a number of reasons.  I was already a
little suspicious about this when I read recently about cluster impact
fusion (CIF) a few months ago.  At first, it seemed 
that credible scientists were, in effect, going to make a case for LENR.
Papers were being published in mainstream scientific journals.  CIF seemed
to be an established fact. Nuclear transmutation was happening on the metal
targets of the charged heavy water clusters.

Suddenly, a whole bunch of scientists made a joint state-
ment to the effect that the data were flawed and it couldn't possibly be
working.  End of episode.  Did anyone else find this a little funny?  You
know,....just a little......funny.

Another thing that makes me wonder is the fact that 
individuals can no longer buy heavy water or deuterium.
I mean, what do they think we're going to do, use a 100gm
of heavy water as a neutron moderator in our teeny tiny
nuclear reactors?  I was rather upset when Jed told us about that retired
scientist who couldn't buy any heavy water to do some CF research.

And finally, I had a personal experience a long, long time
ago that confirms that anything that smacks of cheap isotope separation is
not smiled upon.  I had a student job at the U.S. Bureau of Mines when I was
in college.  Working there was a much better education on a number of
subjects than any of my college classes could have been.

My job was sort of general lab assistant and was mostly a sinecure.  I had a
lot of free time to mess around and there were a lot equipment and
materials.  I had a nutty idea about isotope separation.  No expensive
uranium hexafluoride centrifuging and diffusion for me.  I'm a cheap guy.
So I 
asked my boss if I could do a little experimenting on the side with this
idea.  He said it was OK with him as long as it didn't interfere with what
he wanted done.

I couldn't get any uranium because the nuclear section was
more or less off limits to me, and besides the melting point
is too high for the equipment I had available.  To make a
long story short, I was apparently able to get significant 
concentration of Pb207 from the natural isotope mix using
the molten metal and a simple electromagnetic technique. I
will definitely not give the details here for fear of another MIB visit.

Word spread about my little "science fair project".  I came in one day and
my entire setup was gone.  I was called to the office of the head of the
facility whose title I can't recall... director?  He told me I was not to
waste taxpayer time and money on my personal projects.  I thought that was
kind of funny since most of the scientists spent a lot of time asleep at
their lab benches.  There were a couple of men in his 
office.  They didn't work there.  They didn't actually have black suits and
sunglasses, but they really looked out of place and unfriendly.  I was
prepared to take this order at face value until the director told me not to
discuss what I had done with anyone.  The two MIB said nothing and just sort
of glared at me.

A good argument against my little "conspiracy theory" 
would be that Claytor, et. al., continue with their research.

I know there are quite a few lurkers on this list who work or have worked at
government nuclear research facilities.  I've had a number of off-list
emails from some of them.  I'm sure others on the list have as well.  Now
couldn't one of you lurkers give us just a little bitty hint about this?

M.






_______________________________________________
Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 13 08:53:07 2005
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Subject: Re: CF Suppression?
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John Coviello wrote:

>That is one of the big arguments "skeptics" use against the reality of 
>cold fusion.  If it actually works as proponents claim, why isn't one of 
>those always eager venture capitalists funding research into this 
>technology that could be the next big thing with a massive return on 
>investment?  Not a bad question really.

I agree it is not a bad question, and both sides can learn from the answer. 
However, it tells us more about the nature of modern corporations than 
about the legitimacy of cold fusion. As you said, the Japanese development 
of hybrid automobiles shows the weakness of this assertion. There are many 
other well-known examples, such as the fact that both IBM and 
Hewlett-Packard developed personal computers long before the Apple was 
introduced, but they did not market them.


>   My answer would be that cold fusion is still in the basic research 
> stage, just starting to enter commercialization stage, so it hasn't 
> really caught the attention of the venture capitalists yet . . .

Right. I would go even further. At this stage it may be inappropriate to 
consider  commercialization. Cold fusion is still at the very basic 
research level, making it the sort of thing that cannot be patented. Plus, 
of course, the patent office itself is blocking progress. It also appears 
to be the sort of thing that is best researched using the fully open 
academic model, rather than secret or semisecret corporate R&D.

Some corporations are researching cold fusion in a semi-secret matter. I 
wish them the best of luck, but I fear they may fail because the basic 
science has not been firmly established.


>Actually, we are starting to see some seed money flow into cold fusion 
>with an angel investor funding Entergenics of Israel and Solar Limited 
>buying D2Fusion and perhaps investors providing funding to iESi (who 
>knows?).  So, we slowly but surely seem to be turning that corner.

As I said, the fundamentals have not been established well enough, so I am 
a little bit afraid these ventures may fail the way the NEDO project did. 
Cold fusion might not survive another fiasco.


>Our corporations and venture capitalists will get into the game when it is 
>obvious that money can be made.

Yes. All corporations worldwide will do that.


>Things can change quickly, so be prepared for cold fusion to suddenly get 
>really big if something commercial hit the markets in coming years.

I do not think we need "something commercial." A very convincing 
demonstration cell at one laboratory would suffice, if it were presented 
correctly. James Patterson might have ended the cold fusion controversy in 
a few months, if he had only taken steps to demonstrate his cell with good 
test equipment to a wide audience. Mizuno might have convinced the world in 
four days, if he had called in other scientists and set up proper 
monitoring equipment when his cell began to produce massive heat after 
death. The history of cold fusion is littered with lost opportunities, 
bungled projects, mismarketing and other tragic might-have-beens. I suppose 
that is true of most technologies, such as bicycles or computers, but the 
mistakes made in cold fusion have infinitely greater consequences. If cold 
fusion perishes, much of the earth might be destroyed by global warming.

- Jed


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Jones Beene wrote:

> Ed,
> 
>> Personally, I don't think CF is being suppressed.  This would require 
>> an intent and effort to accomplish.  In contrast, I think it is simply 
>> ignored because most people think it is not real.
> 
> 
> 
> Lets dispense with the term "CF" for a moment ...
> 
> ....you would agree, would you not, that if the electrolytic loading of 
> D2 into cathodes of U metal were able to transmute some significant 
> percentage of the 238 into fissionable material, then there is a huge 
> non-proliferation risk, no?

Yes, but this is not likely to happen.  The cold fusion process tends to 
reduce the nucleus to the lowest energy state. U238 has a lower energy 
than U235.
> 
> That is, IMHO, where the prior "official" initial attempts at 
> suppression may have arisen. However, I doubt that this kind of 
> transmutation can take place in anything over trace amounts (Dash et al).

The Dash work has not been replicated and has not been fully evaluated.
> 
> Certainly with thorium, which has been better investigated, the evidence 
> indicates that transmutation has the effect of converting fertile 
> material to harmless material - which is the opposite of what a 
> terrorist would want.

Exactly so.
> 
> I suspect that people who have looked at the corresponding situation 
> with U have come to the similar conclusion - that: just as with thorium, 
> there is no added proliferation risk from heavy water electrolysis of 
> uranium.

For this reason, the government should have a big incentive to embrace 
transmutation, if for no other reason to get rid of radioactive waste. 
Yet, the government shows no interest.  Therefore, rational 
self-interest does not play a role in the government's approach.  This 
leaves only ignorance and incompetence as an explanation.  I hope people 
who voted for Bush are getting what they want, because the rest of us 
are not.

Ed
> 
> Jones
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 13 09:01:00 2005
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No, not a misspell of 'dessert ice' (not this time anyway)...

Poser-of-the-Day: Can anyone imagine making real ice, as in 
solid-water ice, but in the desert, using zero electricity and 
only natural forces?

The question arose out of this interesting thread on Slashdot, 
based on a recent
Time Magazine article, telling us how Dave Williams is trying to 
make ice for third-world applications using the Hilsch-Ranque 
vortex-tube effect. As all on Vo know - this mechanical device was 
developed in 1930 by G.J. Ranque, using swirling air in a tube, 
such that the counter-rotating vector components split the air 
stream into hot and cold components.

Well, lo-and-behold, as it turns out: It is possible that the 
ancient Egyptians did something even more remarkable, without a 
vortex tube. If you build a solar reflector, and employ it at 
night, especially in a dry environment, the items inside a 
reversed focal point can be induced to become very cold, and can 
attain temperatures below freezing, even if the previous day-time 
temp was 120 - since desert nights can be quite chilly.

And that is a further interesting prospect of having a solar farm. 
Use the solar concentrators at night to create cold water and 
store it for air conditioning. I wonder how quick I can get this 
idea to the patent office?

BTW here is what you use your solar concentrators for during the 
day - zinc refining ! Yes, the hydrogen economy (or zinc-air 
battery economy) being run from free solar energy (with a little 
bit of biomass):
http://www.isracast.com/tech_news/090905_tech.htm

The cooling part doesn't work as well on cloudy nights but this is 
desert, remember? You are essentially 'beaming' the low grade heat 
away and back into the great heatsink called space). Perfect for 
Las Vegas... and with their rate of growth, Hoover Dam may not be 
enough.

A slashdot contributor named Adam (the original contributor ?) 
sez:
"In September 1999, we placed two funnels out in the evening, with 
double-bagged jars inside. One jar was on a block of wood and the 
other was suspended in the funnel using fishing line. The 
temperature that evening (in Provo, Utah) was 78 F. Using a Radio 
Shack indoor/outdoor thermometer, a BYU student (Colter Paulson) 
measured the temperature inside the funnel and outside in the open 
air. He found that the temperature of the air inside the funnel 
dropped quickly by about 15 degrees, as its heat was radiated 
upwards in the clear sky. That night, the minimum outdoor air 
temperature measured was 47.5 degrees - but the water in both jars 
had ICE. I invite others to try this, and please let me know if 
you get ice at 55 or even 60 degrees outside air temperature 
(minimum at night). A black PVC container may work even better 
than a black-painted jar, since PVC is a good infrared radiator - 
these matters are still being studied.

I would like to see the "Funnel Refrigerator" tried in desert 
climates, especially where freezing temperatures are rarely 
reached. It should be possible in this way to cheaply make ice for 
Hutus in Rwanda and for aborigines in Australia, without using any 
electricity or other modern "tricks." We are in effect bringing 
some of the cold of space to a little corner on earth. Please let 
me know how this works for you."
------

This is an experiment you can conduct yourself if you are in the 
right kind of location. It may be that without advanced insulation 
(but maybe using straw ?) one can indeed have desert ice, for 
dessert, following your post impala-steak dinner on Safari... is 
it possible?

Jones

BTW  should have added that there are several ways to move heat 
energy for cooling. One is the gas-fired refrigerator which has 
been discussed here before, along with Fred's "swampper." The 
method being demonstrated in this post is differential infrared 
radiation. All other things being equal, if an object is rejecting 
more infrared heat photons than it is absorbing, then it looses 
heat. Focused mirrors can speed up the process in both directions.

Since the clear night sky contributes little incoming radiation to 
the earth's surface, but is instead a giant heat sink, things can 
cool off more quickly than expected using mirrors. By using 
reflectors one can increase the surface area of the radiation 
dramatically and gain greater active cooling, just as solar 
collectors with reflectors can gain greater heat energy with the 
focused sun shining on them.

At least that portends the interesting prospect of having a solar 
farm - and using it at night also. 

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

BlankJohn Coviello wrote..
> Actually, we are starting to see some seed=20
money flow into cold fusion with an angel investor funding Entergenics =
of=20
Israel and Solar Limited buying D2Fusion and perhaps investors providing =

funding to iESi (who knows?).  So, we slowly but surely seem to be =
turning=20
that corner.

>It will be fun to turn on CNN one day and watch Lou Dobbs talk about =
the big=20
cold fusion venture capitalist craze.

John,=20

I am concerned that the CF theme can easily be painted with a tar brush =
by attracting all sorts of angels both light and dark. A magician makes =
his money off delusions not product. We are working toward product , not =
delusions.

Introducing speculation regarding Lou Dobbs talk about a big new venture =
capitalist craze is NOT conducive to ongoing research in CF. At this =
point in time the  last thing we need to talk about is a " stock market =
feeding frenzy on CF".

Our small company, like many in industry, invest in applied research in =
new technology as a part of our business plan. No thought is given to =
IPO's because we are privately held. Our research in radical new methods =
of pretreating seawater for desalinization using certain technology we =
gleamed from CF research performed by others allows the free market to =
do what it does best.. build on the shoulders of others.=20

Granted , there is a place for stock market speculators as long as they =
do not infringe on the integrity of those dedicated to the search for =
new energy. Nobody suggests it will be easy, few actually believe its =
possible. Once that is firmed set in the mind the next step is getting =
it done.

 If Bill Gates can make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, CF ia a piece =
of cake. Get to work.

Richard

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<HTML><HEAD><TITLE id=3DridTitle>Blank</TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
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<BODY id=3DridBody bgColor=3D#ffffff=20
background=3Dcid:000d01c5b87c$48a7f730$75027841 xptower>
<DIV>John Coviello wrote..</DIV>
<P>&gt;&nbsp;Actually, we are starting to see some seed <BR>money flow =
into cold=20
fusion with an angel investor funding Entergenics of <BR>Israel and =
Solar=20
Limited buying D2Fusion and perhaps investors providing <BR>funding to =
iESi (who=20
knows?).&nbsp; So, we slowly but surely seem to be turning <BR>that=20
corner.<BR><BR>&gt;It will be fun to turn on CNN one day and watch Lou =
Dobbs=20
talk about the big <BR>cold fusion venture capitalist =
craze.<BR><BR>John, </P>
<P>I am concerned that the CF theme can easily be painted with a tar =
brush by=20
attracting all sorts of angels both light and dark. A magician makes his =
money=20
off delusions not product. We are working&nbsp;toward product , not=20
delusions.</P>
<P>Introducing speculation regarding Lou Dobbs&nbsp;talk&nbsp;about a =
big new=20
venture capitalist craze is NOT conducive to ongoing research in CF. At =
this=20
point in time the&nbsp; last thing we need to talk about is a " stock =
market=20
feeding frenzy on CF".</P>
<P>Our small company, like many in industry, invest in applied research =
in new=20
technology as a part of our business plan. No thought is given to IPO's =
because=20
we are privately held. Our research in radical new methods of =
pretreating=20
seawater for desalinization using certain technology we gleamed from CF =
research=20
performed by others allows the free market to do what it does best.. =
build on=20
the shoulders of others. </P>
<P>Granted , there is a place for stock market speculators as long as =
they do=20
not infringe on the integrity of those dedicated to the search for new =
energy.=20
Nobody suggests it will be easy, few actually believe its possible. Once =
that is=20
firmed set in the mind the next step is getting it done.</P>
<P>&nbsp;If&nbsp;Bill Gates&nbsp;can make a silk purse out of a sow's =
ear, CF ia=20
a piece of cake. Get to work.</P>
<P>Richard</P></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 13 09:16:11 2005
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Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 12:15:01 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Clinton also ignored CF
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Edmund Storms wrote:

>For this reason, the government should have a big incentive to embrace 
>transmutation, if for no other reason to get rid of radioactive waste. 
>Yet, the government shows no interest.  Therefore, rational self-interest 
>does not play a role in the government's approach.  This leaves only 
>ignorance and incompetence as an explanation.  I hope people who voted for 
>Bush are getting what they want, because the rest of us are not.

As much as I love to hate Bush, let us be fair about this. Bush #1 and 
Clinton also ignored CF. Administration officials might be forgiven for 
overlooking this forum, or not reading LENR-CANR.org, but excess heat and 
tritium results have been published by some of our National Labs, and 
Iwamura's transmutation results were published in Japan's leading journal 
of physics.

The Bush administration conducted the 2004 DoE review of cold fusion, which 
is more than the Clinton administration did in eight years.

- Jed


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At 11:51 AM 9/13/2005, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>John Coviello wrote:
>>   My answer would be that cold fusion is still in the basic research 
>> stage, just starting to enter commercialization stage, so it hasn't 
>> really caught the attention of the venture capitalists yet . . .
>
>Right. I would go even further. At this stage it may be inappropriate to 
>consider  commercialization. Cold fusion is still at the very basic 
>research level, making it the sort of thing that cannot be patented. Plus, 
>of course, the patent office itself is blocking progress. It also appears 
>to be the sort of thing that is best researched using the fully open 
>academic model, rather than secret or semisecret corporate R&D.



    Cold fusion is now at the engineering stage, well beyond the "basic" 
research stage.
And as such, several devices and modifications of cold fusion can, and will 
be, patented.

    What is even more interesting is that in the years 2003 through 2005, 
the Patent Office
frequently has cited the ramblings of Jed Rothwell and Ed Storms on vortex 
(along with the plethora
of usual anti-cold fusion suspects) to block American cold fusion patents 
applications.
In that light, what is also interesting is that many of their comments are 
not accurate.
For example, neither (nor the usual suspects) attended the recent MIT Cold 
Fusion Colloquium
where several individuals presented and did describe their reproducible 
cold fusion systems.

Those attendees that were there discovered that cold fusion is well beyond 
the "basic research" level;
and is now in engineering-phase.

    Dr. Mitchell Swartz

========================================================

   Cold Fusion Times    http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html
     The journal of the scientific aspects of loading isotopic fuels into 
materials ISSN# 1072-2874

   JET Thermal Products   http://world.std.com/~mica/jet.html
      Working for Safe and More Efficient Heat Products to Serve You





From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 13 09:44:27 2005
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Mitchell Swartz wrote:

>Cold fusion is now at the engineering stage, well beyond the "basic" 
>research stage.

I hope so, as I said. If iESi's claims are real that is certainly true. I 
await independent replication and confirmation.


>And as such, several devices and modifications of cold fusion can, and 
>will be, patented.

I assume this means they will be patented if opposition at the Patent 
Office is overcome -- as I hope it will be.


>What is even more interesting is that in the years 2003 through 2005, the 
>Patent Office frequently has cited the ramblings of Jed Rothwell and Ed 
>Storms on vortex (along with the plethora of usual anti-cold fusion 
>suspects) to block American cold  fusion patents applications.

That is interesting, and weird. It shows how desperate they are to find 
justification for their views. They are scraping the bottom of the barrel.

But in any case, I do not see how anyone can blame us for that! Storms and 
I have a right to our opinions, after all, and we cannot be held 
responsible when others quote us out of context or interpret our statements 
to mean things we clearly never intended to mean.


>For example, neither (nor the usual suspects) attended the recent MIT Cold 
>Fusion Colloquium where several individuals presented and did describe 
>their reproducible cold fusion systems.

You should publish a proceedings, so that others who were not able to 
attend can learn about these things.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 13 10:13:12 2005
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Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 13:12:18 -0500
From: Harry Veeder <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: Lifter experiment
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I was wondering if anyone has heard about this lifter experiment
which purports to show that there is no new physics associated
with lifters.

http://www.blazelabs.com/l-vacuum.asp

If so, do you feel the experiment is definitive?


Harry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 13 10:31:53 2005
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From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: CF Suppression?
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Ed Storms posted;

For this reason, the government should have a big incentive to embrace
transmutation, if for no other reason to get rid of radioactive waste.
Yet, the government shows no interest.  Therefore, rational
self-interest does not play a role in the government's approach.  This
leaves only ignorance and incompetence as an explanation.  I hope people
who voted for Bush are getting what they want, because the rest of us
are not.

IMHO, there is a third explanation, a blind adherence to the status 
quo, which I suppose could be termed incompetence. I never expected 
Bush to change it. As Jed pointed out the Clinton administration 
ignored this too.

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> From: Harry Veeder
> 
> I was wondering if anyone has heard about this lifter experiment
> which purports to show that there is no new physics associated
> with lifters.
> 
> http://www.blazelabs.com/l-vacuum.asp
> 
> If so, do you feel the experiment is definitive?
> 
> 
> Harry

It's doing a pretty good job of convincing me.

I seem to recall some dissention on this matter, however.

My recollection is that someone on Vortex had made the claim that lifter thrust has been recorded in a vacuum, but I can't remember who made that claim or in what context.

Speak up, or forever hold your peace!

Regards,
steve
---
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

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From: "Jones Beene" <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
To: "vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Z-to-H  Zinc-to Hydrogen
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 11:53:18 -0700
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Mentioned earlier was the interesting hybrid energy-cycle involving Zinc =
+ solar,
developed by a cooperative of scientists from Israel, Sweden, =
Switzerland and France - which is efficient and relatively =
self-sustaining. =20
http://www.isracast.com/tech_news/090905_tech.htm

Here's another link on solar zinc refining:
http://www.physorg.com/news6381.html

The joint effort also defies the notion that all such bureaucratic =
cooperatives are doomed to failure, for the normal bureaucratic reasons =
being layered on top of PC.

This partial success seems like it could be the best overall way of all =
solar-H2 methods, at least so far as what is publicly known, including =
nuclear-thermochemical - to produce hydrogen economically and =
ecologically -but it is far from optimum.=20

Still a lot of carbon is getting out (unless biomass carbon is =
"discounted" in this regard - i.e. zero-net carbon release). Zn is not =
expended in this process, but is reused. Zn operates more or less as a =
catalyst for the next step - but producing Zn this way - with about half =
to 2/3 of the net refining energy coming from solar, the rest from =
biomass/coal is the big change. Substantial coal or biomass is still =
required, even if it is only half to 2/3 of what normally would be =
needed for Zinc refining - but here is a suggestion which may eliminate =
some, or all, of that carbon.

Remember the SOFC? =20

The Solid Oxide Fuel Cell (SOFC) operates at high temperature (1,000 =
degrees Celsius) and is rugged ceramic - possibly capable of being used =
in a solar refining system at even higher temps of 1200=B0C (2192F) but =
in the reversed way. (just as a PEM fuel cell can split water, if =
reversed).

The main feature of the SOFC is the "exchange" right THROUGH THE CERAMIC =
of O2- ions. This is quite an amazing feat, when you think about it.

These ions could theoretically be "pulled" through a thicker ceramic =
electrolyte reactor - made of doped zirconium dioxide - by a tiny =
voltage differential applied to the reverse side - thereby eliminating =
all the carbon (the electricity being supplied by adjoining solar cells =
or solar-Stirling.

The powdered preheated ZnO ore, to be refined in the reactor, would be =
admitted along with a gaseous carrier (He or Ar) into a vortex type SOFC =
tube into which highly focused solar energy is being irradiated.

At a heat of above 1200=B0C (2192F) the ZnO breaks down minimally into =
Zn and negative oxygen ions, but at the lower temperature - these =
reactive intermediates will in turn *recombine* immediately - unless =
carbon is present to create CO or CO2... OR... ta-da....unless the O2 =
negative ions can be "drawn" through a solid electrolyte by a slight =
positive charge. Possibly a tenth to a quarter-volt would be all which =
is required at 1200=B0C . An adjoining Solar-Stirling unit can provide =
that. The negative charge for the refined Zn comes at ground, so the =
total electrical energy required is perhaps 10% of what electrolytic =
zinc would need.

The biggest foreseeable problem (after 30 seconds of contemplation) - =
"slagging" of the tube.

Is it doable??=20

If so, the concept is now in the public domain and you heard it first on =
vortex....;-)

Jones=20

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2722" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff background=3D"">
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Mentioned earlier was the interesting =
hybrid=20
energy-cycle involving Zinc + solar,<BR>developed by a cooperative of =
scientists=20
from Israel, Sweden, Switzerland and France - which is efficient and =
relatively=20
self-sustaining.&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><A href=3D"http://www.isracast.com/tech_news/090905_tech.htm"><FONT =

face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>http://www.isracast.com/tech_news/090905_tech.htm</FONT></A></DI=
V>
<DIV><BR><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Here's another link on solar zinc=20
refining:<BR></FONT><A =
href=3D"http://www.physorg.com/news6381.html"><FONT=20
face=3DArial =
size=3D2>http://www.physorg.com/news6381.html</FONT></A></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The joint effort also defies the notion =
that all=20
such bureaucratic cooperatives are doomed to failure, for the normal=20
bureaucratic&nbsp;reasons being layered on top of PC.<BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>This partial success seems like it =
could be the=20
best overall way of all solar-H2 methods, at least so far as what is =
publicly=20
known, including nuclear-thermochemical - to produce hydrogen =
economically and=20
ecologically -but it is far from optimum. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Still a lot of carbon is getting out =
(unless=20
biomass carbon is "discounted" in this regard - i.e. zero-net carbon =
release).=20
Zn is not expended in this process, but is reused. Zn operates more or =
less as a=20
catalyst for the next step - but producing Zn this way - with about half =
to 2/3=20
of the net refining energy coming from solar, the rest from biomass/coal =
is the=20
big change. Substantial coal or biomass is still required, even if it is =
only=20
half to 2/3 of what normally would be needed for Zinc refining - but =
here is a=20
suggestion which may eliminate some, or all, of&nbsp;that=20
carbon.<BR><BR>Remember the SOFC?&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The Solid Oxide Fuel Cell (SOFC) =
operates at high=20
temperature (1,000 degrees Celsius) and is rugged ceramic -=20
possibly&nbsp;capable of being used in a solar refining system at even =
higher=20
temps of 1200=B0C (2192F) but in the reversed way. (just as a PEM fuel =
cell can=20
split water, if reversed).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The main feature of the SOFC =
is&nbsp;the "exchange"=20
right&nbsp;THROUGH THE CERAMIC of O2- ions. This is quite an amazing =
feat, when=20
you think about it.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>These ions could theoretically be =
"pulled" through=20
a thicker ceramic electrolyte reactor - made of doped zirconium dioxide =
- by a=20
tiny voltage differential applied to the reverse side&nbsp;- thereby =
eliminating=20
all the carbon (the electricity being supplied by adjoining solar cells =
or=20
solar-Stirling.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The powdered preheated ZnO ore,&nbsp;to =
be refined=20
in the reactor, would be admitted along with a gaseous carrier (He or =
Ar) into a=20
vortex type SOFC tube into which highly focused solar energy is being=20
irradiated.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>At a heat of above 1200=B0C (2192F) the =
ZnO breaks=20
down minimally into Zn and negative oxygen ions, but at the lower =
temperature=20
-&nbsp;these reactive intermediates&nbsp;will in turn *recombine* =
immediately -=20
unless carbon is present to create CO or CO2... OR... ta-da....unless =
the O2=20
negative&nbsp;ions can be "drawn" through a solid electrolyte by a =
slight=20
positive charge. Possibly a tenth to a quarter-volt would be all which =
is=20
required at 1200=B0C . An adjoining Solar-Stirling unit can provide =
that. The=20
negative charge for the refined Zn comes at ground, so the total =
electrical=20
energy required is perhaps 10% of what electrolytic zinc would=20
need.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The biggest foreseeable problem=20
(after&nbsp;30&nbsp;seconds of contemplation)&nbsp;-&nbsp;"slagging" of =
the=20
tube.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Is it doable?? </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>If so,&nbsp;the concept&nbsp;is now in =
the public=20
domain and you heard it first on vortex....;-)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Jones&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_002B_01C5B859.BBA4FF80--

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Subject: Re: CF Suppression?
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "thomas malloy" <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: CF Suppression?


> Ed Storms posted;
>
> For this reason, the government should have a big incentive to embrace
> transmutation, if for no other reason to get rid of radioactive waste.
> Yet, the government shows no interest.  Therefore, rational
> self-interest does not play a role in the government's approach.  This
> leaves only ignorance and incompetence as an explanation.  I hope people
> who voted for Bush are getting what they want, because the rest of us
> are not.
>
> IMHO, there is a third explanation, a blind adherence to the status
> quo, which I suppose could be termed incompetence. I never expected
> Bush to change it. As Jed pointed out the Clinton administration
> ignored this too.
-----------------------------------
There is something much more obvious that that. Transmutation is **known**
not to happen except under high energy conditions. Some government money was
invested in a method --very conventional physics -- which showed remediation
of specific isotopes using high energy processes. Even the LENR processes
are specific to certain isotopes. The problem the government has is the
remediation of a whole soup of different radioisotopes that are dangerous to
handle. Consider the consequences of a failure of some system for
remediation that spills half-processes radioactive soup all over the place.

Butiding a "safe" plant to do this is itself a very expensive task even if
you had a perfrect process, which is nowhere in sight. If you were a
president or government administrator would you stake your reputation on
sponsoring such a project on your watch?  The easy way out is to bury the
problem and let some future generation take care of it.

So until there is a sea change of opinion among all the best and brightest
of government technocrats so that in-depth research is done on LENR
processes, it ain't going to happen. There is no point flailing at Bush,
Clinton or whoever your favorite god/devil is. The technical base for doing
this on an industrial scale does not exist. That doesn't say that seed money
should not be spent on investigations. There have been hints of this in the
past, which bore no fruit under close inspection.

Mike Carrell



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Once again I have no idea what Swartz is talking about. If CF is at the 
engineering stage, I know of no evidence this is true.  Swartz needs to 
give the basis for this claim.  In addition, I do not believe anything I 
have said on Vortex can be used by the Patent office to reject a claim. 
  I have written 5 reviews that have been published, in which my 
opinions of the evidence are presented, all very positive. I would 
expect these publications to be used by the Patent office, not my 
semiprivate comments about the subjects being discussed on Vortex. 
Either Swartz is wrong or the Patent Office has completely lost its 
common sense.

I agree, CF is at the basic research state.  Normally, such basic work 
is supported at Universities where it is openly discussed and examined 
by students.  Or it is supported by the government, also with an open 
approach.  Unfortunately, CF is not supported by these agencies. 
Instead, private money is being used, which demands confidentially and 
patent protection.  As a result, open discussion is reduced and 
understanding grows very slowly.  Suppression is not required when the 
basic nature of the system is designed to ignore new ideas that 
challenge established industries.  Fortunately, this design flaw is not 
so powerful in other countries, where I predict the effect will be 
developed first.

Ed

Mitchell Swartz wrote:

> 
> 
> At 11:51 AM 9/13/2005, Jed Rothwell wrote:
> 
>> John Coviello wrote:
>>
>>>   My answer would be that cold fusion is still in the basic research 
>>> stage, just starting to enter commercialization stage, so it hasn't 
>>> really caught the attention of the venture capitalists yet . . .
>>
>>
>> Right. I would go even further. At this stage it may be inappropriate 
>> to consider  commercialization. Cold fusion is still at the very basic 
>> research level, making it the sort of thing that cannot be patented. 
>> Plus, of course, the patent office itself is blocking progress. It 
>> also appears to be the sort of thing that is best researched using the 
>> fully open academic model, rather than secret or semisecret corporate 
>> R&D.
> 
> 
> 
> 
>    Cold fusion is now at the engineering stage, well beyond the "basic" 
> research stage.
> And as such, several devices and modifications of cold fusion can, and 
> will be, patented.
> 
>    What is even more interesting is that in the years 2003 through 2005, 
> the Patent Office
> frequently has cited the ramblings of Jed Rothwell and Ed Storms on 
> vortex (along with the plethora
> of usual anti-cold fusion suspects) to block American cold fusion 
> patents applications.
> In that light, what is also interesting is that many of their comments 
> are not accurate.
> For example, neither (nor the usual suspects) attended the recent MIT 
> Cold Fusion Colloquium
> where several individuals presented and did describe their reproducible 
> cold fusion systems.
> 
> Those attendees that were there discovered that cold fusion is well 
> beyond the "basic research" level;
> and is now in engineering-phase.
> 
>    Dr. Mitchell Swartz
> 
> ========================================================
> 
>   Cold Fusion Times    http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html
>     The journal of the scientific aspects of loading isotopic fuels into 
> materials ISSN# 1072-2874
> 
>   JET Thermal Products   http://world.std.com/~mica/jet.html
>      Working for Safe and More Efficient Heat Products to Serve You
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

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From: OrionWorks <orionworks charter.net>
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> From: Mike Carrell
...
> There is something much more obvious that that. Transmutation 
> is **known** not to happen except under high energy conditions.
> Some government money was invested in a method --very
> conventional physics -- which showed remediation of specific
> isotopes using high energy processes. Even the LENR processes
> are specific to certain isotopes. The problem the government 
> has is the remediation of a whole soup of different
> radioisotopes that are dangerous to handle. Consider the
> consequences of a failure of some system for remediation that
> spills half-processes radioactive soup all over the place.
> 
> Butiding a "safe" plant to do this is itself a very expensive 
> task even if you had a perfrect process, which is nowhere in
> sight. If you were a president or government administrator
> would you stake your reputation on sponsoring such a project
> on your watch?  The easy way out is to bury the problem and
> let some future generation take care of it.
> 
> So until there is a sea change of opinion among all the best 
> and brightest of government technocrats so that in-depth
> research is done on LENR processes, it ain't going to happen.
> There is no point flailing at Bush, Clinton or whoever your
> favorite god/devil is. The technical base for doing this on
> an industrial scale does not exist. That doesn't say 
> that seed money should not be spent on investigations. There
> have been hints of this in the past, which bore no fruit under
> close inspection.
> 
> Mike Carrell

Assuming in the not too distant future we do discover a reasonably energy efficient way to transmute radioactive isotopes the question then becomes where do we do it? Yucca Mountain? It seems reasonable for me to speculate that the actual engineering may turn out to be a gigantic enterprise, one that perhaps only a government would have the resources to tackle - not only for economical reasons but, more importantly, for security reasons.

Hypothetically speaking, if running the proposed transmutation program means the creation of many employment opportunities the economical considerations might outweigh the radioactive dangers involved and senators could eventually end up courting it for their home state.

"Come yuck it up at Yucca Mountain!"

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 13 14:39:07 2005
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From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
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All very true, Mike.  However, we have two kinds of waste, the spent 
rods that are stored whole and the soup that is rotting the tanks at 
Hanford. The spent rods can stay as they are or can be buried whole. 
The soup in the tanks is another matter.  Sooner or later, the 
radioactive soup will get loose. At that point, government officials 
will wish they had explored other options, no matter how expensive or 
politically unpopular.  This will be rather like the present situation 
in New Orleans.  After the disaster, any moron can see that something 
should have been done earlier.  It takes intelligence and wisdom to do 
something before the disaster.  Granted Clinton did little to solve some 
of the serious problems and Bush has done even less - even making some 
worse.  My point is that the criteria to be elected president needs to 
be changed.  Being conservative or liberal, Republican or Democrat is 
not working.  We need people who are competent. Of course, the general 
public can not be expected to pick the person on this basis, but the 
people who put up the candidate in the first place can.  Also the media 
can.  A candidate should have to go through the same process that is 
used to pick a Supreme Court Judge. This would have weeded out the likes 
of Bush.

Ed

Mike Carrell wrote:

> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "thomas malloy" <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
> Subject: Re: CF Suppression?
> 
> 
> 
>>Ed Storms posted;
>>
>>For this reason, the government should have a big incentive to embrace
>>transmutation, if for no other reason to get rid of radioactive waste.
>>Yet, the government shows no interest.  Therefore, rational
>>self-interest does not play a role in the government's approach.  This
>>leaves only ignorance and incompetence as an explanation.  I hope people
>>who voted for Bush are getting what they want, because the rest of us
>>are not.
>>
>>IMHO, there is a third explanation, a blind adherence to the status
>>quo, which I suppose could be termed incompetence. I never expected
>>Bush to change it. As Jed pointed out the Clinton administration
>>ignored this too.
> 
> -----------------------------------
> There is something much more obvious that that. Transmutation is **known**
> not to happen except under high energy conditions. Some government money was
> invested in a method --very conventional physics -- which showed remediation
> of specific isotopes using high energy processes. Even the LENR processes
> are specific to certain isotopes. The problem the government has is the
> remediation of a whole soup of different radioisotopes that are dangerous to
> handle. Consider the consequences of a failure of some system for
> remediation that spills half-processes radioactive soup all over the place.
> 
> Butiding a "safe" plant to do this is itself a very expensive task even if
> you had a perfrect process, which is nowhere in sight. If you were a
> president or government administrator would you stake your reputation on
> sponsoring such a project on your watch?  The easy way out is to bury the
> problem and let some future generation take care of it.
> 
> So until there is a sea change of opinion among all the best and brightest
> of government technocrats so that in-depth research is done on LENR
> processes, it ain't going to happen. There is no point flailing at Bush,
> Clinton or whoever your favorite god/devil is. The technical base for doing
> this on an industrial scale does not exist. That doesn't say that seed money
> should not be spent on investigations. There have been hints of this in the
> past, which bore no fruit under close inspection.
> 
> Mike Carrell
> 
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 13 14:45:22 2005
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OrionWorks wrote:

>Assuming in the not too distant future we do discover a reasonably energy 
>efficient way to transmute radioactive isotopes the question then becomes 
>where do we do it? Yucca Mountain? It seems reasonable for me to speculate 
>that the actual engineering may turn out to be a gigantic enterprise . . .

That's right, and it is an important point that I have been meaning to 
bring up for some time.

If CF processes can be used to remediate radioactive waste, that is a 
tremendously important discovery. It should be pursued by all means, 
because of what it would teach us about physics. However, that does not 
necessarily mean we should implement the technology on a large scale. That 
could be a very tough decision. It depends on many factors having nothing 
to do with physics, such as safety, economics, politics, terrorism and so on.

As everyone knows, we could begin remediation by transmutation right now, 
using conventional nuclear methods, in breeder reactors. This would reduce 
the mass of radioactive waste, and it would extract much more energy from 
each kilogram of starting material. But would it be a good idea? So far, 
the answer is no. All breeder reactor projects have been fiascoes. If they 
ever produce electricity it will probably be the most expensive electricity 
ever generated. The Fermi breeder reactor near Chicago and the Japanese 
Monju reactor both suffered severe accidents that cost a fortune, and both 
had to be abandoned before they could begin production.

It is a shame to leave all that potential energy from uranium lying around, 
but at this stage it seems we lack the knowledge to harness it. Fortunately 
there is a great deal of virgin uranium available. If we ever do figure out 
how to make a cost-effective breeder reactor, today's spent fuel will still 
be available.

Just because we can do something does not mean we should. My gut feeling is 
that the best thing to do with nuclear waste at this stage would be to put 
it underground, but leave the door open. A hundred years from now people 
will probably have much better technical methods of dealing with the stuff. 
We should do the best we can now, with our limited knowledge. but there are 
some problems we should leave for our great-great-grandchildren to fix, and 
this is one of them.

- Jed


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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 13 15:42:35 2005
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From: "Mitchell Swartz" <mica world.std.com>
>    Cold fusion is now at the engineering stage, well beyond the "basic" 
> research stage.
> And as such, several devices and modifications of cold fusion can, and 
> will be, patented.
>
>    What is even more interesting is that in the years 2003 through 2005, 
> the Patent Office
> frequently has cited the ramblings of Jed Rothwell and Ed Storms on vortex 
> (along with the plethora
> of usual anti-cold fusion suspects) to block American cold fusion patents 
> applications.

You can't seriously think that the patent office is blocking cold fusion 
patents because of anything said on Vortex by Jed and Ed?  They've been 
blocking cold fusion patents for over 16 years now, well before this forum 
existed.  Somebody has to get a European patent or Asian patent and market a 
cold fusion device.  This controversy could end quickly if that happens.

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BlankFrom: RC Macaulay=20
  To: vortex-l eskimo.com=20
  Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 12:00 PM
  Subject: Re: CF Suppression ( copy 2)


  John Coviello wrote..
  > Actually, we are starting to see some seed=20
  money flow into cold fusion with an angel investor funding Entergenics =
of=20
  Israel and Solar Limited buying D2Fusion and perhaps investors =
providing=20
  funding to iESi (who knows?).  So, we slowly but surely seem to be =
turning=20
  that corner.

  >It will be fun to turn on CNN one day and watch Lou Dobbs talk about =
the big=20
  cold fusion venture capitalist craze.

  John,=20

  I am concerned that the CF theme can easily be painted with a tar =
brush by attracting all sorts of angels both light and dark. A magician =
makes his money off delusions not product. We are working toward product =
, not delusions.

  Introducing speculation regarding Lou Dobbs talk about a big new =
venture capitalist craze is NOT conducive to ongoing research in CF. At =
this point in time the  last thing we need to talk about is a " stock =
market feeding frenzy on CF".

  Our small company, like many in industry, invest in applied research =
in new technology as a part of our business plan. No thought is given to =
IPO's because we are privately held. Our research in radical new methods =
of pretreating seawater for desalinization using certain technology we =
gleamed from CF research performed by others allows the free market to =
do what it does best.. build on the shoulders of others.=20

  Granted , there is a place for stock market speculators as long as =
they do not infringe on the integrity of those dedicated to the search =
for new energy. Nobody suggests it will be easy, few actually believe =
its possible. Once that is firmed set in the mind the next step is =
getting it done.

   If Bill Gates can make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, CF ia a piece =
of cake. Get to work.

  Richard

  Richard,

  I understand the spirit of your message.  I just would find it amusing =
to see cold fusion go through a stock market/venture capitialist frenzy =
after all these years of controversy.  It would be sweet victory for =
cold fusion supporters.  This has been a terribly bitter battle to prove =
cold fusion is real to the broader world outside the cold fusion =
community.  A stock market and investment frenzy that received =
widespread press coverage would be very satisfying.  A good analogy is =
nanotechnology.  Also, once derided and thought of as science fiction, =
nanotechnology has gone through it's own market/venture capitialist =
frenzy in recent years, and the controversy is over forever.  Cold =
fusion might be next.  Cold fusion supporters should realize just how =
quickly this situation could change under the right circumstances.  A =
commercial cold fusion device or major research project by corporate =
America, could quickly bring cold fusion into the mainstream.

  John





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<BODY id=3DridBody bgColor=3D#ffffff=20
background=3Dcid:035c01c5b8b5$99ca71e0$a4b1e118 D54BYG11>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3Dwalhalla cvtv.net href=3D"mailto:walhalla@cvtv.net">RC =
Macaulay</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dvortex-l eskimo.com=20
  href=3D"mailto:vortex-l eskimo.com">vortex-l@eskimo.com</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, September 13, =
2005 12:00=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: CF Suppression ( =
copy=20
  2)</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV>John Coviello wrote..</DIV>
  <P>&gt;&nbsp;Actually, we are starting to see some seed <BR>money flow =
into=20
  cold fusion with an angel investor funding Entergenics of <BR>Israel =
and Solar=20
  Limited buying D2Fusion and perhaps investors providing <BR>funding to =
iESi=20
  (who knows?).&nbsp; So, we slowly but surely seem to be turning =
<BR>that=20
  corner.<BR><BR>&gt;It will be fun to turn on CNN one day and watch Lou =
Dobbs=20
  talk about the big <BR>cold fusion venture capitalist =
craze.<BR><BR>John, </P>
  <P>I am concerned that the CF theme can easily be painted with a tar =
brush by=20
  attracting all sorts of angels both light and dark. A magician makes =
his money=20
  off delusions not product. We are working&nbsp;toward product , not=20
  delusions.</P>
  <P>Introducing speculation regarding Lou Dobbs&nbsp;talk&nbsp;about a =
big new=20
  venture capitalist craze is NOT conducive to ongoing research in CF. =
At this=20
  point in time the&nbsp; last thing we need to talk about is a " stock =
market=20
  feeding frenzy on CF".</P>
  <P>Our small company, like many in industry, invest in applied =
research in new=20
  technology as a part of our business plan. No thought is given to =
IPO's=20
  because we are privately held. Our research in radical new methods of=20
  pretreating seawater for desalinization using certain technology we =
gleamed=20
  from CF research performed by others allows the free market to do what =
it does=20
  best.. build on the shoulders of others. </P>
  <P>Granted , there is a place for stock market speculators as long as =
they do=20
  not infringe on the integrity of those dedicated to the search for new =
energy.=20
  Nobody suggests it will be easy, few actually believe its possible. =
Once that=20
  is firmed set in the mind the next step is getting it done.</P>
  <P>&nbsp;If&nbsp;Bill Gates&nbsp;can make a silk purse out of a sow's =
ear, CF=20
  ia a piece of cake. Get to work.</P>
  <P>Richard</P>
  <P>Richard,</P>
  <P>I understand the spirit of your message.&nbsp; I just would find it =
amusing=20
  to see cold fusion go through&nbsp;a stock market/venture capitialist =
frenzy=20
  after all these years of controversy.&nbsp; It would be sweet victory =
for cold=20
  fusion supporters.&nbsp; This has been a terribly bitter battle to =
prove cold=20
  fusion is real to the broader world outside the cold fusion =
community.&nbsp; A=20
  stock market and investment frenzy that received widespread press =
coverage=20
  would be very satisfying.&nbsp; A good analogy is =
nanotechnology.&nbsp; Also,=20
  once derided and thought of as science fiction, nanotechnology has =
gone=20
  through it's own market/venture capitialist frenzy in recent years, =
and the=20
  controversy is over forever.&nbsp; Cold fusion might be next.&nbsp; =
Cold=20
  fusion supporters should realize just how quickly this situation could =
change=20
  under the right&nbsp;circumstances.&nbsp;&nbsp;A commercial cold =
fusion device=20
  or major&nbsp;research project by corporate America, could quickly =
bring cold=20
  fusion into the mainstream.</P>
  <P>John</P>
  <P>&nbsp;</P>
  <P>&nbsp;</P></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 13 15:54:06 2005
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From: "Jones Beene" <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
To: "vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: OT: Never too old...dawg
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 15:52:55 -0700
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I mentioned the iPod Nano the other day; and the fact that it 
seems to be something more than the normal slow evolution of an 
entertainment product... in that - with its combination of tiny 
size, long battery life, easy connectivity to a computer, fast 
downloads of tons of info, having color images available in 
addition to words and music, etc... That all of these features 
might portend, or allow previously unimaginable changes - even 
rather immediately in a personal lifestyle... among other 
things... if one is so inclined.

For instance, I gave up television (for the most part) a few years 
ago. It was getting to be a 'dependency' thing - and it seemed at 
the time that by just doing the John-Prine-number ("blow up your 
TV") that this would force me back into reading more. It did... 
but the old peepers are getting weaker now, and having already 
worked every cross-word puzzle ever written, the iPod is coming to 
the rescue in an unexpected way - not just books-on-tape (even 
though they are often marvelous) but way beyond. Hopefully there 
will not be the slightest temptation to get hooked on TV again.

If you're not familiar with TTC (teach12.com), they're a business 
that compiles college lectures from great lecturers.  Sound 
boring?  It actually manages to be tremendously exciting if you 
have that spark of interest in the particular subject. The 
lectures I've heard so far are way-interesting and can actually 
teach an old dog new tricks. The first one I downloaded was "Will 
to Power"  500 megabytes so I'm only half way through. I have 
heard that other segments of "Great Ideas in Philosophy" is also 
terrific.

So... if you are at nearing the been-there, done-that life-stage, 
and ready for a major change that keeps you from becoming a couch 
potato, and out of bars and other temptations - maybe you are an 
"empty-nester" or whatever they are called.... then one highly 
recommended alternative is to get an iPod Nano, blow up you TV, 
and get listening and learning, dawg!  It's never too late to 
expand your educational horizons (or to practice pretentious 
intellectual affectation when the need arises ... not that I would 
ever try that kind of thing on vortex ...<G>

Anyway, here are some choices from one company, but other similar 
material is available - some of it for free if you have a 
broadband internet connection, a bittorrent client, and low regard 
for the US copyright laws.

Philosophy & Intellectual History
--Existentialism and the Meaning of Life
--Great Ideas of Philosophy
--Plato, Socrates and the Dialogues
--Will to Power - The Philosophy of Friedrich Nietzsche
Science & Mathematics
--Einstein's Relativity and the Quantum Revolution
--Particle Physics for Non-Physicists
History - Ancient & Medieval
--Early Middle Ages
--Famous Romans
--Herodotus, The Father of History
--High Middle Ages
--Rome and the Barbarians
Literature & English Language
--Dante's Divine Comedy
Fine Arts & Music
--Brahms - His Life and Music
--Mozart - His Life and Music
Religion
--Fiction In The Da Vinci Code
--God and Mankind - Comparative Religions
Social Sciences
--Great Ideas of Psychology
--Perspectives on Abnormal Psychology 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 13 16:09:25 2005
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Subject: Re: CF Suppression?
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BlankEdmund Storms wrote..
>All very true, Mike.  However, we have two kinds of waste, the spent=20
rods that are stored whole and the soup that is rotting the tanks at=20
Hanford. The spent rods can stay as they are or can be buried whole.=20
The soup in the tanks is another matter.  Sooner or later, the=20
radioactive soup will get loose. At that point, government officials=20
will wish they had explored other options, no matter how expensive or=20
politically unpopular.  This will be rather like the present situation=20
in New Orleans.  After the disaster, any moron can see that something=20
should have been done earlier.  It takes intelligence and wisdom to do=20
something before the disaster.

Ed.. Many New Orleans scenarios exist on earth including the hideous =
nightmare at Hanford that even Hollywood would have difficulty =
surpassing in a horror flick. Those of us that have spent a lifetime in =
wastewater treatment are painfully aware of the task. This serves as  =
stimuli for our continuing to invest in liquid vortex research. Spending =
money on research is never a waste of time or resources. Our line of =
products have been enhanced as a byproduct of the ever learning posture =
afforded the searcher. For example, while studying a method of =
supercharging a vortex, we discovered how to better mix a blend of =
gas/liquid disinfecting chemicals via vacuum induction at + 22 ft water =
basin head.  The search goes on.

Perhaps the greatest byproduct of research is the morale booster it =
affords our employees, It is not the number of medals around one's neck =
or pinned to the chest that counts. Winning is not a result of success, =
it is a mind game where all battles are won or  lost.=20

Richard

Richard

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<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
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<BODY id=3DridBody bgColor=3D#ffffff=20
background=3Dcid:001901c5b8b8$045c0580$7f027841 xptower>
<DIV>Edmund Storms wrote..</DIV>
<P>&gt;All very true, Mike.&nbsp; However, we have two kinds of waste, =
the spent=20
<BR>rods that are stored whole and the soup that is rotting the tanks at =

<BR>Hanford. The spent rods can stay as they are or can be buried whole. =
<BR>The=20
soup in the tanks is another matter.&nbsp; Sooner or later, the =
<BR>radioactive=20
soup will get loose. At that point, government officials <BR>will wish =
they had=20
explored other options, no matter how expensive or <BR>politically=20
unpopular.&nbsp; This will be rather like the present situation <BR>in =
New=20
Orleans.&nbsp; After the disaster, any moron can see that something =
<BR>should=20
have been done earlier.&nbsp; It takes intelligence and wisdom to do=20
<BR>something before the disaster.</P>
<P>Ed.. Many New Orleans scenarios exist on earth including the hideous=20
nightmare at Hanford that even Hollywood would have difficulty =
surpassing in a=20
horror flick. Those of us that have spent a lifetime in wastewater =
treatment are=20
painfully aware of the task. This serves as&nbsp; stimuli for our =
continuing to=20
invest in liquid vortex research. Spending money on research is never a =
waste of=20
time or resources. Our line of products have been enhanced as a =
byproduct of the=20
ever learning posture afforded the searcher. For example, while studying =
a=20
method of supercharging a vortex, we discovered how to better mix a =
blend of=20
gas/liquid disinfecting chemicals via vacuum induction at + 22 ft water =
basin=20
head.&nbsp; The search goes on.</P>
<P>Perhaps the greatest byproduct of research is the morale booster it =
affords=20
our employees, It is not the number of medals around one's neck or =
pinned to the=20
chest that counts. Winning is not a result of success, it is a mind game =
where=20
all battles are won or &nbsp;lost. </P>
<P>Richard</P>
<P>Richard</P></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 13 16:11:42 2005
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At 06:41 PM 9/13/2005, you wrote:
>From: "Mitchell Swartz" <mica world.std.com>
>>    Cold fusion is now at the engineering stage, well beyond the "basic" 
>> research stage.
>>And as such, several devices and modifications of cold fusion can, and 
>>will be, patented.
>>
>>    What is even more interesting is that in the years 2003 through 2005, 
>> the Patent Office
>>frequently has cited the ramblings of Jed Rothwell and Ed Storms on 
>>vortex (along with the plethora
>>of usual anti-cold fusion suspects) to block American cold fusion patents 
>>applications.
>
>You can't seriously think that the patent office is blocking cold fusion 
>patents because of anything said on Vortex by Jed and Ed?  They've been 
>blocking cold fusion patents for over 16 years now, well before this forum 
>existed.  Somebody has to get a European patent or Asian patent and market 
>a cold fusion device.  This controversy could end quickly if that happens.


   John:

      I said "cited" which has a clear meaning.

      In fact, by relying on such "cherry pickings" and the rants of the 
other 'usual suspects', it also demonstrates
that the Patent Office has deliberately ignored open demonstrations of cold 
fusion by Prof. John Dash,
by Dennis Cravens, and by my group, JET Thermal Products, which demonstrate 
conclusively that
they have no foundation for their egregious behavior.

    As Jed Rothwell has correctly stated,
   "It shows how desperate they [the Patent Office] are to find 
justification for their views."

    [ FWIW and corroborating my post, Jed Rothwell  several years ago 
previously acted quite responsibly
and wrote a letter which utterly contradicted the Patent Office's use of 
his posting on Vortex,
which was used by the Patent Office in one of their unfounded rejections. ]

    Dr. Mitchell Swartz

========================================================

   Cold Fusion Times    http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html
     The journal of the scientific aspects of loading isotopic fuels into 
materials ISSN# 1072-2874

   JET Thermal Products   http://world.std.com/~mica/jet.html
      Working for Safe and More Efficient Heat Products to Serve You












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At 05:17 PM 9/13/2005, Edmund Storms wrote:
>"Once again I have no idea what Swartz is talking about. If CF is at the 
>engineering stage, I know of no evidence this is true."



   "Only those with narrow minds fail to see that the definition of Impossible
    is 'Lack of imagination and incentive'."
                        -- Serena Butler




   =================================================

     ".... This is known as science by politics -- it is disgusting.
       Storms doesn't have leg to stand on and he knows it."
        Dr. Eugene F. Mallove"   Subject: Storms' censorship




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Subject: Re: CF Suppression?
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 20:08:06 -0400
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mitchell Swartz" <mica world.std.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "John Coviello" <johnwc patmedia.net>
Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 7:06 PM
Subject: Re: CF Suppression?


> At 06:41 PM 9/13/2005, you wrote:
>>From: "Mitchell Swartz" <mica world.std.com>
>>>    Cold fusion is now at the engineering stage, well beyond the "basic" 
>>> research stage.
>>>And as such, several devices and modifications of cold fusion can, and 
>>>will be, patented.
>>>
>>>    What is even more interesting is that in the years 2003 through 2005, 
>>> the Patent Office
>>>frequently has cited the ramblings of Jed Rothwell and Ed Storms on 
>>>vortex (along with the plethora
>>>of usual anti-cold fusion suspects) to block American cold fusion patents 
>>>applications.
>>
>>You can't seriously think that the patent office is blocking cold fusion 
>>patents because of anything said on Vortex by Jed and Ed?  They've been 
>>blocking cold fusion patents for over 16 years now, well before this forum 
>>existed.  Somebody has to get a European patent or Asian patent and market 
>>a cold fusion device.  This controversy could end quickly if that happens.
>
>
>   John:
>
>      I said "cited" which has a clear meaning.
>
>      In fact, by relying on such "cherry pickings" and the rants of the 
> other 'usual suspects', it also demonstrates
> that the Patent Office has deliberately ignored open demonstrations of 
> cold fusion by Prof. John Dash,
> by Dennis Cravens, and by my group, JET Thermal Products, which 
> demonstrate conclusively that
> they have no foundation for their egregious behavior.
>

In all due respect, that definitely seems like the onus is on the Patent 
Office not Jed or Ed (in other words it's the Patent Office's problem).  Jed 
and Ed are doing their best to promote their views on cold fusion.  If the 
Patent Office choses to focus on their views to justify their policies and 
ignore other evidence, such as actual demonstrations of cold fusion, it 
seems as if it's the Patent Office who isn't doing their job properly and 
burying their heads in the sand.  The question is:  Is this deliberate (i.e. 
suppression)?

Anyone who thinks cold fusion suppression is too far out to even consider. 
Remember the people who control our government are the same band of Robber 
Barrons who have taken our nation into a very questionable war in the Middle 
East for oil  These people will stop at nothing to protect their pet 
industry, the most profitable industry in human history, the oil industry. 
If they're willing to drag the nation into war and kill thousands for oil, 
what makes anyone actually think they wouldn't also use the Patent Office as 
a convient blocking mechanism to keep cold fusion from progession too 
quickly?

It is up to cold fusion proponents to make an overwhelming case of cold 
fusion that can no longer be ignored. 

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On Tue, 13 Sep 2005, Jones Beene wrote:

> I mentioned the iPod Nano the other day; and the fact that it seems to be 
> something more than the normal slow evolution of an entertainment product... 
> in that - with its combination of tiny size, long battery life, easy 
> connectivity to a computer, fast downloads of tons of info, having color
>[snip]
> If you're not familiar with TTC (teach12.com), they're a business that 
> compiles college lectures from great lecturers.  Sound boring?  It actually 
> manages to be tremendously exciting if you have that spark of interest in the 
> particular subject. The lectures I've heard so far are way-interesting and 
> can actually teach an old dog new tricks. The first one I downloaded was 
> "Will to Power"  500 megabytes so I'm only half way through. I have heard 
> that other segments of "Great Ideas in Philosophy" is also terrific.

I use speech-synthesis software to listen to articles while I do household 
work, like cooking.  I just clip the text out of some interesting article, 
remove junk and trim the lines, then run the speech-synthesis software to 
create an MP3 file, download it to my MP3 player (Motorola cellphone) and 
listen!  1000 lines (70 characters long) of text yields around 12MB MP3 
data.  It takes a little while to get used to the synthetic voice, but 
after a while, you get used to it.  I use the free software 'festival' 
from the University of Edinburgh:

    http://www.cstr.ed.ac.uk/projects/festival.html

and some scripts made by me.

>[snip]

/Mathias

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At 08:08 PM 9/13/2005, John Coviello wrote:
>----- Original Message ----- From: "Mitchell Swartz" <mica world.std.com>
>To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
>Cc: "John Coviello" <johnwc patmedia.net>
>Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 7:06 PM
>Subject: Re: CF Suppression?
>
>
>>At 06:41 PM 9/13/2005, you wrote:
>>
>>"In fact, by relying on such "cherry pickings" and the rants of the other 
>>'usual suspects', it also demonstrates
>>that the Patent Office has deliberately ignored open demonstrations of 
>>cold fusion by Prof. John Dash,
>>by Dennis Cravens, and by my group, JET Thermal Products, which 
>>demonstrate conclusively that
>>they have no foundation for their egregious behavior.
>
>In all due respect, that definitely seems like the onus is on the Patent 
>Office


   Spot on, sir.
   The Patent Office should respect the US Constitution -- and the 
directive of the US Congress.
Instead, they have acted systematically against the interests of US security.


  First:
   "The Congress shall have Power ... To promote the Progress of Science 
and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times
     to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective 
Writings and Discoveries"
                Article I  Section 8

   Second:
    Patentable statutory subject matter spans "anything under the sun that 
is made by man'".
[S. Rep. No. 1979, 82d Cong., 2d Sess., 5 (1952); H. R. Rep. No. 1923, 82d 
Cong., 2d Sess., 6 (1952)].

   These citations, and the history wrought by the obstructionists in the 
Office using their
professional pathological skeptics, demonstrates CF suppression.
      Q.E.D.

     Those interested in this more, should review many of the previous 
issues of the COLD FUSION TIMES.

      Dr. Mitchell Swartz

========================================================

   Cold Fusion Times    http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html
     The journal of the scientific aspects of loading isotopic fuels into 
materials ISSN# 1072-2874

   JET Thermal Products   http://world.std.com/~mica/jet.html
      Working for Safe and More Efficient Heat Products to Serve You




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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Edmund Storms" <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: CF Suppression?


> All very true, Mike.  However, we have two kinds of waste, the spent
> rods that are stored whole and the soup that is rotting the tanks at
> Hanford. The spent rods can stay as they are or can be buried whole.
> The soup in the tanks is another matter.  Sooner or later, the
> radioactive soup will get loose.

<snip>

A while back I had occasion to look into the Hanford radwaste situation in
the context of remediation and containment using chemically activated fly
ash, which can form a strong porous barrier which sequesters a wide range of
contaminants. At thet time I read that Hanford was pumping liquid waste from
below ground tanks into double walled above ground tanks with provision for
sampling any leakage from the inner to outer shell. This is an expensive
stopgap.

It happens that the activated fly ash can make a suitable and cheap
containment for locally stored rods and liquid waste, far better than the
metal and portland cement containment design postulated for Yucca Mountain.
The basic chemistry comes from Dr. Daviovits, a Frenchman, but getting the
proper governmental attention, or even research grants, runs into the usual
thicket familiar to CF.

The Great Pyramids were built with limestone concrete using a related
chemistry, but that is another story.

Mike Carrell



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 13 18:14:23 2005
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From: OrionWorks <orionworks charter.net>
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Subject: Re: Desert Ice - fact or fiction
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Jones sez:

 
> No, not a misspell of 'dessert ice' (not this time anyway)...

...

I loved this post!

My first knee jerk reaction was to assume someone (who shall remain nameless) was trying to pull my leg, but then, after I pondered it for a chilling moment... hell, yeah, why shouldn't it work! EM radiation should go in both directions.

It seems to me one could best maximize the dissipation of heat by making the parabolic reflective cone more deep set than average. Construct higher reflective parabolic walls than what one typically sees in a parabolic dish configuration such as those used for receiving radio signals from afar. The foci (the point of maximum heat dissipation) would be close to the base (or bottom) of this parabolic cone. A higher reflective wall arrangement should prevent random external heat radiation (originating near the surface of the planet) from sneaking in from the sides. That should reduce contamination of the foci as much as practically possible where one is trying to dissipate heat at close to 100 percent with no negative (er, I mean positive) feed back. Maximum heat dissipation is obviously best accomplished when one reduces as much as possible the sources of all external heat radiation from penetrating the inner confines of the parabolic dish configuration, and especially the foc!
 i.

A deep set parabolic dish configuration out to do that nicely, quietly, and with no power needed.

Assuming a parabolic dish arrangement was built large enough, and if you sat in the middle of this foci during a cloudless desert evening all you would see would be a few twinkling stars above and pretty much cold pitch darkness everywhere else.

Be sure to wear a parka. ;-)

I wonder if this parabolic arrangement (which uses no power) could be used to condense practical amounts of moisture out of the desert air. Collection tubes could be placed at the foci where condensed moisture would collect. Condensation might be possible if a passive but steady breeze were to flow through the foci point where the collection tubes reside.

I also wonder if there could possibly be a practical way one could take advantage of this arrangement in order to increase a heat differential between hot and cold sources, with the idea of powering a device like a sterling engine.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

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In reply to  Harry Veeder's message of Tue, 13 Sep 2005 13:12:18
-0500:
Hi,
[snip]
>If so, do you feel the experiment is definitive?

Yes, and about time too.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

In a town full of candlestick makers, 
everyone lives in the light,
In a town full of thieves, 
there is only one candle, 
and everyone lives in the night.

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From: Harry Veeder <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: Lifter experiment
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OrionWorks wrote:

>> From: Harry Veeder
>> 
>> I was wondering if anyone has heard about this lifter experiment which
>> purports to show that there is no new physics associated with lifters.
>> 
>> http://www.blazelabs.com/l-vacuum.asp
>> 
>> If so, do you feel the experiment is definitive?
>> 
>> 
>> Harry
>> 
> It's doing a pretty good job of convincing me.
> 
> I seem to recall some dissention on this matter, however.
> 
> My recollection is that someone on Vortex had made the claim that lifter
> thrust has been recorded in a vacuum, but I can't remember who made that claim
> or in what context.
> 
> Speak up, or forever hold your peace!
> 


Yes, I would like hear about that too.

Anyway, consider the description of the experiment I mentioned above.
Near the bottom of the page it says:

  "During this experiment, the lifter in the chamber was not flying but was
  set hanging down on a very weak spring."

I presume this means he has turned the lifter upside down to perform the
vacuum test. However, perhaps the orientation of the lifter relative to
gravity does play role in generating a true lifter effect. Turning it upside
down might spoil the true effect. Consequently, the thrust he observed
could be explained by conventional physics.

Harry



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 13 18:42:33 2005
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Is Ed Storms actually a Super Double Secret Dysinformation
Agent who has penetrated the white knights of Vortex-L?
(Gasp!) I suppose not, but Ed's response to my original post
on the subject of possible cold fusion suppression was a little
funny.  You know, Dimitri, just a little.....funny.

On the subject of individuals not being able to buy heavy
water anymore, Ed replied:

> This is not true, a proper person can buy heavy-water. 
> The issue is liability. D2O is a poison. Therefore, like all
> such chemicals, it is sold only to businesses.

Now either Ed is stupid or uninformed, which I seriously
doubt, or he assumes that I am stupid and/or uninformed,
which I guess is open to speculation.   You need to replace
half the water in your body with D2O before it becomes
toxic.  On that scale, Karo syrup is more poisonous.

Furthermore, all sorts of chemicals that are really poisonous
can be bought by individuals.  You can buy lead acetate and
silver nitrate on eBay if you want and, let me assure you, they
are far more toxic than heavy water. You can even buy
potassium cyanide if you sign for it.  But just you try to buy
100gm or so of heavy water.  This clamp down on heavy
water purchase began slowly after P&F and became nearly
impossible after 9/11.  Draw your own conclusion.

Scene at the heavy water plant across the valley from the
CANDU reactor:  Gaston and Maude are the nightime
caretakers.

Gaston: Maude, zis moose soup tasts like merde de poullet.

Maude:  Mais pourquoi, mon amour, eet is ze old family
recipe, non?

Gaston:  Maude, you lazzy beetch, haf you been using ze 
heavy water in ze cooking again?

Maude:  Mais Gaston, eet is such long way to ze well, and my
back she is hurting.  Et alors, ze heavy water is such a jolie
bleu, n'est-ce pas?

Gaston: Zis is ze third time zis week, my mitochodria, zey are
dying off.

Maude: What are ze mitochondria?

Gaston: I am not sure, but my left arm is not working,  call zat
nice Dr. Storms at Los Alamos, he weel know what to do.

Well, OK, it's not that amusing, but you get the idea.

M.


_______________________________________________
Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
The most personalized portal on the Web!


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 13 18:48:21 2005
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Subject: Re: Desert Ice - fact or fiction
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Jones Beene wrote:

> No, not a misspell of 'dessert ice' (not this time anyway)...
>
> Poser-of-the-Day: Can anyone imagine making real ice, as in 
> solid-water ice, but in the desert, using zero electricity and only 
> natural forces?
>
Yes I have data on that technology its quite simple and was used to make 
Ice in the middle east for centuries. The design described by Jones 
below is a bit complex but will work but there is a simpler way. Some 
middle eastern houses have a very shallow pond, 1 cm, placed between 
narrow walls  1-2 meters tall and 1 meter wide. The walls run east west 
so the pond is in shade for most of the day. Shade cloths are sometimes 
pulled across  to help shade the ground by day. *The ground stays 
cold.*  The heat from the water is radiated straight up into the night 
sky. The Ice must be collected before dawn. It is still used today in 
some villages but who wants to get up at 4 am to harvest ice? Its not 
competing with powered refrigeration where energy technologies exist. 
Production varies, 250 g to 5kg  per square meter.

Some air well designs also produce ice and refrigeration. These are 
white bricks staked in an open pattern so there is a free flow of air 
but the bricks below become perfectly shaded. The upper bricks heat and 
cool quickly because on the low contact surface area and high air 
circulation. The lower bricks chill at night but because they are always 
shaded and are below  the hight of the outer wall so there is no hot 
winds effecting them. Water condenses on the chilled bricks and runns 
down into the cictern below. This water is cold enough to produce 
Icicles in the cistern below.

Several animal species build small airwells.

> The question arose out of this interesting thread on Slashdot, based 
> on a recent
> Time Magazine article, telling us how Dave Williams is trying to make 
> ice for third-world applications using the Hilsch-Ranque vortex-tube 
> effect. As all on Vo know - this mechanical device was developed in 
> 1930 by G.J. Ranque, using swirling air in a tube, such that the 
> counter-rotating vector components split the air stream into hot and 
> cold components.
>
> Well, lo-and-behold, as it turns out: It is possible that the ancient 
> Egyptians did something even more remarkable, without a vortex tube. 
> If you build a solar reflector, and employ it at night, especially in 
> a dry environment, the items inside a reversed focal point can be 
> induced to become very cold, and can attain temperatures below 
> freezing, even if the previous day-time temp was 120 - since desert 
> nights can be quite chilly.
>
> And that is a further interesting prospect of having a solar farm. Use 
> the solar concentrators at night to create cold water and store it for 
> air conditioning. I wonder how quick I can get this idea to the patent 
> office?
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 13 18:50:19 2005
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Subject: Re: OT: Never too old...dawg
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Theres already an Ipod bible.
Jones Beene wrote:

> I mentioned the iPod Nano the other day; and the fact that it seems to 
> be something more than the normal slow evolution of an entertainment 
> product... in that - with its combination of tiny size, long battery 
> life, easy connectivity to a computer, fast downloads of tons of info, 
> having color images available in addition to words and music, etc... 
> That all of these features might portend, or allow previously 
> unimaginable changes - even rather immediately in a personal 
> lifestyle... among other things... if one is so inclined.
>
> For instance, I gave up television (for the most part) a few years 
> ago. It was getting to be a 'dependency' thing - and it seemed at the 
> time that by just doing the John-Prine-number ("blow up your TV") that 
> this would force me back into reading more. It did... but the old 
> peepers are getting weaker now, and having already worked every 
> cross-word puzzle ever written, the iPod is coming to the rescue in an 
> unexpected way - not just books-on-tape (even though they are often 
> marvelous) but way beyond. Hopefully there will not be the slightest 
> temptation to get hooked on TV again.
>
> If you're not familiar with TTC (teach12.com), they're a business that 
> compiles college lectures from great lecturers.  Sound boring?  It 
> actually manages to be tremendously exciting if you have that spark of 
> interest in the particular subject. The lectures I've heard so far are 
> way-interesting and can actually teach an old dog new tricks. The 
> first one I downloaded was "Will to Power"  500 megabytes so I'm only 
> half way through. I have heard that other segments of "Great Ideas in 
> Philosophy" is also terrific.
>
> So... if you are at nearing the been-there, done-that life-stage, and 
> ready for a major change that keeps you from becoming a couch potato, 
> and out of bars and other temptations - maybe you are an 
> "empty-nester" or whatever they are called.... then one highly 
> recommended alternative is to get an iPod Nano, blow up you TV, and 
> get listening and learning, dawg!  It's never too late to expand your 
> educational horizons (or to practice pretentious intellectual 
> affectation when the need arises ... not that I would ever try that 
> kind of thing on vortex ...<G>
>
> Anyway, here are some choices from one company, but other similar 
> material is available - some of it for free if you have a broadband 
> internet connection, a bittorrent client, and low regard for the US 
> copyright laws.
>
> Philosophy & Intellectual History
> --Existentialism and the Meaning of Life
> --Great Ideas of Philosophy
> --Plato, Socrates and the Dialogues
> --Will to Power - The Philosophy of Friedrich Nietzsche
> Science & Mathematics
> --Einstein's Relativity and the Quantum Revolution
> --Particle Physics for Non-Physicists
> History - Ancient & Medieval
> --Early Middle Ages
> --Famous Romans
> --Herodotus, The Father of History
> --High Middle Ages
> --Rome and the Barbarians
> Literature & English Language
> --Dante's Divine Comedy
> Fine Arts & Music
> --Brahms - His Life and Music
> --Mozart - His Life and Music
> Religion
> --Fiction In The Da Vinci Code
> --God and Mankind - Comparative Religions
> Social Sciences
> --Great Ideas of Psychology
> --Perspectives on Abnormal Psychology

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 13 19:01:32 2005
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Harry Veeder wrote:

>I was wondering if anyone has heard about this lifter experiment
>which purports to show that there is no new physics associated
>with lifters.
>
>http://www.blazelabs.com/l-vacuum.asp
>
>If so, do you feel the experiment is definitive?
>
>
>Harry
>
>  
>
Metalic vacuum vessels and electrostatic experiments are a bad mix. We 
can't rule out field interactions with the vessel but the blaze labs 
work looks otherwise OK.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 13 19:11:38 2005
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Harry Veeder wrote:

>OrionWorks wrote:
>
>  
>
>>>From: Harry Veeder
>>>
>>>I was wondering if anyone has heard about this lifter experiment which
>>>purports to show that there is no new physics associated with lifters.
>>>
>>>http://www.blazelabs.com/l-vacuum.asp
>>>
>>>If so, do you feel the experiment is definitive?
>>>
>>>
>>>Harry
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>It's doing a pretty good job of convincing me.
>>
>>I seem to recall some dissention on this matter, however.
>>
>>My recollection is that someone on Vortex had made the claim that lifter
>>thrust has been recorded in a vacuum, but I can't remember who made that claim
>>or in what context.
>>
>>Speak up, or forever hold your peace!
>>
>>    
>>
>
>
>Yes, I would like hear about that too.
>
>Anyway, consider the description of the experiment I mentioned above.
>Near the bottom of the page it says:
>
>  "During this experiment, the lifter in the chamber was not flying but was
>  set hanging down on a very weak spring."
>
>I presume this means he has turned the lifter upside down to perform the
>vacuum test. However, perhaps the orientation of the lifter relative to
>gravity does play role in generating a true lifter effect. Turning it upside
>down might spoil the true effect. Consequently, the thrust he observed
>could be explained by conventional physics.
>
>Harry
>
>
>
>  
>
According to Thomas Townsend Brown, bifeld and he originated the 
technology, there is no orientation bias and he claimed tests in vacuum 
but the Nasa lab that owned the vacuum chamber don't back the claim. 
Some one need to build a non metallic vacuum chamber so we can test 
things definitively. There are several technologies: magnetic plasma 
sails; ion engines and some plasma engines that have the potential for 
unmeasured interactions with the vessel that need to be controlled for.

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From: "John Steck" <johnsteck tetrahelix.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: OT: Never too old...dawg
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 22:53:11 -0500
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Try this: http://www.readplease.com/

-john


-----Original Message-----
From: Mathias Bage [mailto:mathias Stacken.kth.se] 
Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 7:30 PM
To: vortex
Subject: Re: OT: Never too old...dawg




On Tue, 13 Sep 2005, Jones Beene wrote:

> I mentioned the iPod Nano the other day; and the fact that it seems to 
>be
> something more than the normal slow evolution of an entertainment
product... 
> in that - with its combination of tiny size, long battery life, easy 
> connectivity to a computer, fast downloads of tons of info, having color
>[snip]
> If you're not familiar with TTC (teach12.com), they're a business that 
> compiles college lectures from great lecturers.  Sound boring?  It
actually 
> manages to be tremendously exciting if you have that spark of interest in
the 
> particular subject. The lectures I've heard so far are way-interesting and

> can actually teach an old dog new tricks. The first one I downloaded was 
> "Will to Power"  500 megabytes so I'm only half way through. I have heard 
> that other segments of "Great Ideas in Philosophy" is also terrific.

I use speech-synthesis software to listen to articles while I do household 
work, like cooking.  I just clip the text out of some interesting article, 
remove junk and trim the lines, then run the speech-synthesis software to 
create an MP3 file, download it to my MP3 player (Motorola cellphone) and 
listen!  1000 lines (70 characters long) of text yields around 12MB MP3 
data.  It takes a little while to get used to the synthetic voice, but 
after a while, you get used to it.  I use the free software 'festival' 
from the University of Edinburgh:

    http://www.cstr.ed.ac.uk/projects/festival.html

and some scripts made by me.

>[snip]

/Mathias


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 13 20:54:15 2005
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More on my vast left or right wing conspiracy theory of
cold fusion suppression.

On the subject of my possible low budget Pb207 isotope
separation I wrote:

>> I couldn't get any uranium because the nuclear section was
>> more or less off limits to me, and besides the melting point
>> is too high for the equipment I had available.  To make a
>> long story short, I was apparently able to get significant 
>> concentration of Pb207 from the natural isotope mix using
>> the molten metal and a simple electromagnetic technique. I
>> will definitely not give the details here for fear of another
>> MIB visit.

Ed completely skirts the issue of isotope separation and writes:

> Lead is very toxic.  I can understand why someone might not
> want you messing with it.

Golly gee, Ed, I thought it was a food additive.  This was 1962.
No one anywhere was worried about anything toxic, or anything
nuclear, for that matter.  There was a student operated nuclear
reactor not a hundred yards from where I worked at the Bureau
of Mines.  You could have walked in there at night and yanked
all the control rods and it would maybe have set off an alarm.

I didn't want to flesh out this narrative for fear of sounding like an
old geezer yakking about old times at the U.S. Bureau of Mines,
but well here it is anyway.  In any case, get a load of my actual
job there, as opposed to my isotope separation hobby.

I was in charge of electroplating manganese salts into mercury
cathodes and then boiling off the mercury in an iron still to 
recover the manganese.  I had to keep plating until the amalgam
was just a sludge.

The mercury was boiled off in a creaky old mercury still made
for the purpose.  You had to purge the manganese with nitrogen
before removal and then slowly expose it to air, as it was a fine
black powder and highly pyrophoric.  A lot of times the manganese
lit off anyway and there was a hell of a fireworks display.  You
can just imagine how much residual mercury was in it.  I did in
fact contract mercury poisoning from doing this.

My point here is that no one was worried about my messing
with anything toxic.  Clearly, what they were worried about was
any inexpensive isotope separation scheme.

BTW, Ed that lead acetate makes a hell of a low-cal sweetner.
Used to be call sugar of lead, y'know.  Thins you right out.

M.









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Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 21:56:26 -0600
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Michael Foster wrote:

> Is Ed Storms actually a Super Double Secret Dysinformation
> Agent who has penetrated the white knights of Vortex-L?
> (Gasp!) I suppose not, but Ed's response to my original post
> on the subject of possible cold fusion suppression was a little
> funny.  You know, Dimitri, just a little.....funny.
> 
> On the subject of individuals not being able to buy heavy
> water anymore, Ed replied:
> 
> 
>>This is not true, a proper person can buy heavy-water. 
>>The issue is liability. D2O is a poison. Therefore, like all
>>such chemicals, it is sold only to businesses.
> 
> 
> Now either Ed is stupid or uninformed, which I seriously
> doubt, or he assumes that I am stupid and/or uninformed,
> which I guess is open to speculation.   You need to replace
> half the water in your body with D2O before it becomes
> toxic.  On that scale, Karo syrup is more poisonous.

Well Michael, I have no trouble buying heavy water.  However, when I 
have attempted to buy Li from a supplier with whom I had not done 
business, I was informed that because Li is dangerous, they would not 
send it to a residential address. Also, discussions with people at the 
chemical suppliers indicate that they do not want the liability of 
untrained people doing potentially dangerous chemistry in their homes, 
because the supplier can be sued if something bad happened.

The difference between D2O and Karo syrup is that you would know that 
you were drinking D2O.

Have you discussed your problem with suppliers and what was their response?
> 
> Furthermore, all sorts of chemicals that are really poisonous
> can be bought by individuals.  You can buy lead acetate and
> silver nitrate on eBay if you want and, let me assure you, they
> are far more toxic than heavy water. You can even buy
> potassium cyanide if you sign for it.  But just you try to buy
> 100gm or so of heavy water.  This clamp down on heavy
> water purchase began slowly after P&F and became nearly
> impossible after 9/11.  Draw your own conclusion.

I'm sure you can buy dangerous chemicals from all sorts of places. 
However, the major chemical companies are careful because they can be sued.

Ed
> 
> Scene at the heavy water plant across the valley from the
> CANDU reactor:  Gaston and Maude are the nightime
> caretakers.
> 
> Gaston: Maude, zis moose soup tasts like merde de poullet.
> 
> Maude:  Mais pourquoi, mon amour, eet is ze old family
> recipe, non?
> 
> Gaston:  Maude, you lazzy beetch, haf you been using ze 
> heavy water in ze cooking again?
> 
> Maude:  Mais Gaston, eet is such long way to ze well, and my
> back she is hurting.  Et alors, ze heavy water is such a jolie
> bleu, n'est-ce pas?
> 
> Gaston: Zis is ze third time zis week, my mitochodria, zey are
> dying off.
> 
> Maude: What are ze mitochondria?
> 
> Gaston: I am not sure, but my left arm is not working,  call zat
> nice Dr. Storms at Los Alamos, he weel know what to do.
> 
> Well, OK, it's not that amusing, but you get the idea.
> 
> M.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
> The most personalized portal on the Web!
> 
> 
> 

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Subject: Re: CF Suppression?
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 14:30:54 +1000
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In reply to  John Steck's message of Tue, 13 Sep 2005 10:30:53
-0500:
Hi,
[snip]
>Development isn't, commercialization is.  Not just CF but anything that
>shows any possibility of destabilizing the world economy by attacking one of
>the main support pillars (oil/energy, cheap labor, raw materials, commerce).
[snip]

There are really only two support pillars, energy and information
(or knowledge). Proper application of these two combined yields
all others.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

In a town full of candlestick makers, 
everyone lives in the light,
In a town full of thieves, 
there is only one candle, 
and everyone lives in the night.

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Jones wrote:

> No, not a misspell of 'dessert ice' (not this time anyway)...

> Poser-of-the-Day: Can anyone imagine making real ice, as in
> solid-water ice, but in the desert, using zero electricity and
> only natural forces?

I can absolutely imagine it.  I used to do it when I was a kid.
Not only that, you can do it anywhere, anytime.  Don't have to
wait for the night.  

It's really simple.  You just take some ammonium nitrate, put a
thin walled metal container of water in the middle of it.  Add 
some more water to the ammonium nitrate to make a slurry, and 
the water inside the metal container will freeze solid as brick.

Dissolving ammonium nitrate is highly endothermic.  Furthermore,
you can do what I did to recycle it.  You just spread the wet
slurry out over a black tray and let the sun dry it out again,
then scrape it out.  I did this in a rather dry climate, so I
am not positive it would work in a humid climate as the ammonium
nitrate is also hygroscopic.

Anyway, what you have here is a solar powered manual freezer.
I used to dream of building some sort of slow rotating black
disk that would be partially immersed in the slurry and then
rotate out to be dryed out by the sun then into a shaded area to
cool and then back into the slurry.  Or how about a belt doing the 
same?  Never did actually build it though.

M.



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Vortexians;

Correct me if I'm wrong but; AFAIK, Tom Bearden has yet to 
demonstrate a working machine. As for modifying the weather, IMHO, 
that's right out of the conspiracy theory fever swamp.


Subject:	FWD: About Thomas Bearden and Hurricane Katrina, et. al.
Date:	Tue, 13 Sep 2005 10:11:20 -0700
Status:	Normal
From:	Patrick Bailey <patrickgbailey sbcglobal.net>
Save Address
Thanks Janet!
Subject: Thomas Bearden...
Those of us who attended the New Energy Conferences held in Colorado 
in the early 90's had the good fortune
of hearing Lt. Col. Thomas E. Bearden (retd) speak.  Here is some of 
the latest from his website.
Janet Lee
Lt. Col Thomas E. Bearden (retd).   http://www.cheniere.org/toc.html
PhD, MS (nuclear engineering), BS (mathematics - minor electronic engineering)
Co-inventor - the 2002 Motionless Electromagnetic Generator - a 
replicated overunity EM generator
Listed in Marquis' Who'sWho in America, 2004 
Here is the latest update from Tom Bearden on hurricane Katrina. He 
feels we are now into the kind of scalar electromagnetic war he has 
been warning about for years.  This is from the correspondence 
section http://www.cheniere.org/correspondence/index.html   
Tom Bearden. referring to the work ... US Patent awarded March 26, 
2002. Invented by Tom Bearden and four colleagues. .. 
http://www.cheniere.org/  
Source of foregoing quote by Tom Bearden: For specific (but not all) 
analytical details, see book by Tom Bearden, "Fer de Lance" (updated 
2nd edition 2002), http://www.cheniere.org/books/ferdelance/s64.htm

Please see the paper on my website listing more than a dozen of the 
known terrible falsities in the CEM/EE model, at link 
http://www.cheniere.org/techpapers/CEM%20Errors%20-%20final%20paper%20complete%20w%20longer%20abstract4.doc 
.  Another related paper is at 
http://www.cheniere.org/techpapers/why%20Van%20Flandern%20waterfall%20analogy3.doc 
.
E.g., in 1892 Lorentz arbitrarily symmetrized the already 
highly-curtailed Maxwell-Heaviside equations. He thereby ARTIBRARILY 
discarded all asymmetrical Maxwellian systems, including those that 
freely take their excess energy from the vacuum, just to get simpler 
equations easier to algebraically solve. So he restricted our 
electrical power systems to only that class of systems that 
self-destroy their own energy extraction from the vacuum, faster than 
they power their loads. These STUPID symmetrized Lorentz equations 
are still being taught to all our electrical engineers as "gospel" 
and untouchable.

--============_-1085444657==_ma============
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<!doctype html public "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<html><head><style type="text/css"><!--
blockquote, dl, ul, ol, li { padding-top: 0 ; padding-bottom: 0 }
 --></style><title>Bearden</title></head><body>
<div>Vortexians;</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Correct me if I'm wrong but; AFAIK, Tom Bearden has yet to
demonstrate a working machine. As for modifying the weather, IMHO,
that's right out of the conspiracy theory fever swamp.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br>
<font face="Verdana" size="-2"
color="#000000"><b>Subject:</b><x-tab
>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </x-tab>FWD: About Thomas
Bearden and Hurricane Katrina, et. al.<b><br>
Date:</b><x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp; </x-tab>Tue, 13 Sep 2005 10:11:20
-0700<b><br>
Status:</b><x-tab>&nbsp; </x-tab>Normal<b><br>
From:</b><x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </x-tab>Patrick Bailey
&lt;patrickgbailey sbcglobal.net&gt;<br>
</font><font face="Charcoal" color="#000000">Save Address</font><font
face="Verdana" size="-2" color="#000000"><br>
Thanks Janet!<br>
Subject: Thomas Bearden...<br>
</font><font face="Times New Roman" size="-2" color="#3333FF">Those of
us who attended the<b> New Energy Conferences</b> held in Colorado in
the early 90's had the good fortune<br>
of hearing<b> Lt. Col. Thomas E. Bearden (retd)</b> speak.&nbsp; Here
is some of the latest from his website.<br>
Janet Lee<br>
</font><font face="Verdana" size="-3" color="#006666"><u><b>Lt. Col
Thomas E. Bearden (retd</b></u></font><font face="Times New Roman"
size="-2" color="#000000">).</font><font face="Verdana" size="-3"
color="#000000"> &nbsp;</font><font face="Verdana" size="-3"
color="#006666"><b> http://www.cheniere.org/toc.html<br>
</b></font><font face="Verdana" size="-3" color="#000000"><b>PhD, MS
(nuclear engineering), BS (mathematics - minor electronic
engineering)<br>
Co-inventor - the</b></font><font face="Verdana" size="-3"
color="#006666"><u><b> 2002 Motionless Electromagnetic
Generator</b></u></font><font face="Verdana" size="-3"
color="#000000"><b> - a replicated overunity EM generator<br>
</b></font><font face="Verdana" size="-3" color="#006666"><u><b>Listed
in Marquis' Who'sWho in America, 2004</b></u></font><font
face="Verdana" size="-3" color="#000000">&nbsp;<br>
<b>Here is the latest update from Tom Bearden on hurricane Katrina. He
feels we are now into the kind of scalar electromagnetic war he has
been warning about for years.&nbsp; This is from</b></font><font
face="Verdana" size="-3" color="#800080"><b> the correspondence
section</b></font><font face="Verdana" size="-3" color="#006666"><b>
http://www.cheniere.org/correspondence/index.html</b></font><font
face="Verdana" size="-3" color="#000000"><b>
&nbsp;&nbsp;</b></font><font face="Verdana" size="-2"
color="#000000"><br>
</font><font face="Verdana" size="-3" color="#000000"><b>Tom Bearden.
referring to the work ... US Patent awarded March 26, 2002. Invented
by Tom Bearden and four colleagues. ..</b></font><font face="Verdana"
size="-3" color="#006666"><u><b>
http://www.cheniere.org/</b></u></font><font face="Verdana" size="-2"
color="#000000"> &nbsp;<br>
</font><font face="Verdana" size="-3" color="#000000"><b>Source of
foregoing quote by Tom Bearden: For specific (but not all) analytical
details, see book by Tom Bearden, &quot;Fer de Lance" (updated 2nd
edition 2002),</b></font><font face="Verdana" size="-3"
color="#006666"><u><b>
http://www.cheniere.org/books/ferdelance/s64.htm</b></u></font><font
face="Verdana" size="-3" color="#000000"><b><br>
</b></font><font face="Verdana" size="-2" color="#000000"><b><br>
</b></font><font face="Verdana" size="-3" color="#000080"><b>Please
see the paper on my website listing more than a dozen of the known
terrible falsities in the CEM/EE model, at link</b></font><font
face="Verdana" size="-3" color="#006666"><u><b>
http://www.cheniere.org/techpapers/CEM%20Errors%20-%20final%20paper%2<span
></span>0complete%20w%20longer%20abstract4.doc</b></u></font><font
face="Verdana" size="-3" color="#0000FF"><b> .&nbsp;</b></font><font
face="Verdana" size="-2" color="#000000"><b> Another related paper is
at</b></font><font face="Verdana" size="-3" color="#000080"><b>
http://www.cheniere.org/techpapers/why%20Van%20Flandern%20waterfall%2<span
></span>0analogy3.doc .<br>
E.g., in 1892 Lorentz arbitrarily symmetrized the already
highly-curtailed Maxwell-Heaviside equations. He thereby ARTIBRARILY
discarded all</b></font><font face="Verdana" size="-3"
color="#0000FF"><b> asymmetrical</b></font><font face="Verdana"
size="-3" color="#000080"><b> Maxwellian systems, including those that
freely take their excess energy from the vacuum, just to get simpler
equations easier to algebraically solve. So he restricted our
electrical power systems to only that class of systems that
self-destroy their own energy extraction from the vacuum, faster than
they power their loads. These STUPID symmetrized Lorentz equations are
still being taught to all our electrical engineers as "gospel" and
untouchable.<br>
</b></font></div>
</body>
</html>
--============_-1085444657==_ma============--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 13 23:17:39 2005
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From: "Mark Goldes" <mgoldes msn.com>
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Subject: RE: Bearden
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 23:16:43 -0700
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I believe you are correct.

As for his weather modification nonsense, Bearden claimed the Soviets were 
modifying the weather to cripple the American breadbasket in the midwest, at 
precisely the same time that the USSR was importing wheat from us, 
Argentinia and elsewhere.  If they knew how to modify weather, their own 
country would obviously have been the first example.  The Crimea could have 
sorely used some good weather for growing grain.  Also, having been there, 
Moscow is not exactly a pleasant place in winter.

His long-winded work is full of gross errors that are never acknowledged.

Mark


>From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Bearden
>Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 01:03:24 -0500
>
>Vortexians;
>
>Correct me if I'm wrong but; AFAIK, Tom Bearden has yet to demonstrate a 
>working machine. As for modifying the weather, IMHO, that's right out of 
>the conspiracy theory fever swamp.
>
>
>Subject:	FWD: About Thomas Bearden and Hurricane Katrina, et. al.
>Date:	Tue, 13 Sep 2005 10:11:20 -0700
>Status:	Normal
>From:	Patrick Bailey <patrickgbailey sbcglobal.net>
>Save Address
>Thanks Janet!
>Subject: Thomas Bearden...
>Those of us who attended the New Energy Conferences held in Colorado in the 
>early 90's had the good fortune
>of hearing Lt. Col. Thomas E. Bearden (retd) speak.  Here is some of the 
>latest from his website.
>Janet Lee
>Lt. Col Thomas E. Bearden (retd).   http://www.cheniere.org/toc.html
>PhD, MS (nuclear engineering), BS (mathematics - minor electronic 
>engineering)
>Co-inventor - the 2002 Motionless Electromagnetic Generator - a replicated 
>overunity EM generator
>Listed in Marquis' Who'sWho in America, 2004 Here is the latest update from 
>Tom Bearden on hurricane Katrina. He feels we are now into the kind of 
>scalar electromagnetic war he has been warning about for years.  This is 
>from the correspondence section 
>http://www.cheniere.org/correspondence/index.html   Tom Bearden. referring 
>to the work ... US Patent awarded March 26, 2002. Invented by Tom Bearden 
>and four colleagues. .. http://www.cheniere.org/  Source of foregoing quote 
>by Tom Bearden: For specific (but not all) analytical details, see book by 
>Tom Bearden, "Fer de Lance" (updated 2nd edition 2002), 
>http://www.cheniere.org/books/ferdelance/s64.htm
>
>Please see the paper on my website listing more than a dozen of the known 
>terrible falsities in the CEM/EE model, at link 
>http://www.cheniere.org/techpapers/CEM%20Errors%20-%20final%20paper%20complete%20w%20longer%20abstract4.doc 
>.  Another related paper is at 
>http://www.cheniere.org/techpapers/why%20Van%20Flandern%20waterfall%20analogy3.doc 
>.
>E.g., in 1892 Lorentz arbitrarily symmetrized the already highly-curtailed 
>Maxwell-Heaviside equations. He thereby ARTIBRARILY discarded all 
>asymmetrical Maxwellian systems, including those that freely take their 
>excess energy from the vacuum, just to get simpler equations easier to 
>algebraically solve. So he restricted our electrical power systems to only 
>that class of systems that self-destroy their own energy extraction from 
>the vacuum, faster than they power their loads. These STUPID symmetrized 
>Lorentz equations are still being taught to all our electrical engineers as 
>"gospel" and untouchable.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 14 00:38:31 2005
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At 11:51 am 13/09/2005 -0400, Jed wrote:

> I do not think we need "something commercial." A very convincing 
> demonstration cell at one laboratory would suffice, if it were presented 
> correctly. James Patterson might have ended the cold fusion controversy in 
> a few months, if he had only taken steps to demonstrate his cell with good 
> test equipment to a wide audience. Mizuno might have convinced the world in 
> four days, if he had called in other scientists and set up proper 
> monitoring equipment when his cell began to produce massive heat after 
> death... 


You could add P&F if they had used a 6inch cube 
of Pd and managed to blow themselves up together 
with half the neighbourhood - 
a case of massive death after heat.

Grimer



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Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 09:28:17 +0100
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From: Grimer <f.grimer grimer2.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Desert Ice - fact or fiction
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At 08:59 am 13/09/2005 -0700, Jones wrote:

> No, not a misspell of 'dessert ice' (not this time anyway)...
>
> Poser-of-the-Day: Can anyone imagine making real ice, as in 
> solid-water ice, but in the desert, using zero electricity and 
> only natural forces?
>
> The question arose out of this interesting thread on Slashdot, 
> based on a recent
> Time Magazine article, telling us how Dave Williams is trying to 
> make ice for third-world applications using the Hilsch-Ranque 
> vortex-tube effect. As all on Vo know - this mechanical device was 
> developed in 1930 by G.J. Ranque, using swirling air in a tube, 
> such that the counter-rotating vector components split the air 
> stream into hot and cold components.
>
> Well, lo-and-behold, as it turns out: It is possible that the 
> ancient Egyptians did something even more remarkable, without a 
> vortex tube. If you build a solar reflector, and employ it at 
> night, especially in a dry environment, the items inside a 
> reversed focal point can be induced to become very cold, and can 
> attain temperatures below freezing, even if the previous day-time 
> temp was 120 - since desert nights can be quite chilly.
>
> And that is a further interesting prospect of having a solar farm. 
> Use the solar concentrators at night to create cold water and 
> store it for air conditioning. I wonder how quick I can get this 
> idea to the patent office?
>
> BTW here is what you use your solar concentrators for during the 
> day - zinc refining ! Yes, the hydrogen economy (or zinc-air 
> battery economy) being run from free solar energy (with a little 
> bit of biomass):
> http://www.isracast.com/tech_news/090905_tech.htm
>
> The cooling part doesn't work as well on cloudy nights but this is 
> desert, remember? You are essentially 'beaming' the low grade heat 
> away and back into the great heatsink called space). Perfect for 
> Las Vegas... and with their rate of growth, Hoover Dam may not be 
> enough.
>
> A slashdot contributor named Adam (the original contributor ?) 
> sez:
> "In September 1999, we placed two funnels out in the evening, with 
> double-bagged jars inside. One jar was on a block of wood and the 
> other was suspended in the funnel using fishing line. The 
> temperature that evening (in Provo, Utah) was 78 F. Using a Radio 
> Shack indoor/outdoor thermometer, a BYU student (Colter Paulson) 
> measured the temperature inside the funnel and outside in the open 
> air. He found that the temperature of the air inside the funnel 
> dropped quickly by about 15 degrees, as its heat was radiated 
> upwards in the clear sky. That night, the minimum outdoor air 
> temperature measured was 47.5 degrees - but the water in both jars 
> had ICE. I invite others to try this, and please let me know if 
> you get ice at 55 or even 60 degrees outside air temperature 
> (minimum at night). A black PVC container may work even better 
> than a black-painted jar, since PVC is a good infrared radiator - 
> these matters are still being studied.
>
> I would like to see the "Funnel Refrigerator" tried in desert 
> climates, especially where freezing temperatures are rarely 
> reached. It should be possible in this way to cheaply make ice for 
> Hutus in Rwanda and for aborigines in Australia, without using any 
> electricity or other modern "tricks." We are in effect bringing 
> some of the cold of space to a little corner on earth. Please let 
> me know how this works for you."
> ------
>
> This is an experiment you can conduct yourself if you are in the 
> right kind of location. It may be that without advanced insulation 
> (but maybe using straw ?) one can indeed have desert ice, for 
> dessert, following your post impala-steak dinner on Safari... is 
> it possible?
>
> Jones
>
> BTW  should have added that there are several ways to move heat 
> energy for cooling. One is the gas-fired refrigerator which has 
> been discussed here before, along with Fred's "swampper." The 
> method being demonstrated in this post is differential infrared 
> radiation. All other things being equal, if an object is rejecting 
> more infrared heat photons than it is absorbing, then it looses 
> heat. Focused mirrors can speed up the process in both directions.
>
> Since the clear night sky contributes little incoming radiation to 
> the earth's surface, but is instead a giant heat sink, things can 
> cool off more quickly than expected using mirrors. By using 
> reflectors one can increase the surface area of the radiation 
> dramatically and gain greater active cooling, just as solar 
> collectors with reflectors can gain greater heat energy with the 
> focused sun shining on them.
>
> At least that portends the interesting prospect of having a solar 
> farm - and using it at night also. 



Thanks for that one Jones.

The idea of focussing "cold" is rather fascinating. 

This resonates with the fact that one only needs a temperature 
difference to run a Stirling engine. Ice is just as good as hot coffee.  8-)
Indeed, it is even better because its latent heat means that ice is
effectively an efficient storage battery for cold.  

So if one can make ice at night one can use it to "fuel" a Stirling
during the day.

If I lived in Las Vegas rather than cloudy London I would almost be 
tempted to experiment myself.  ;-)

Frank Grimer



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What do you mean?

-----Original Message-----
From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On
Behalf Of John Steck
Sent: 13 September 2005 16:31
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: RE: Mild eugenics and social engineering

Harrumph! Harrumph!  8^)


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 14 02:13:08 2005
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From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk
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Subject: A few observations on CF, trying to help
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 10:11:45 +0100
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Vo and CF'ers,

Trying to help you...

1) You really are being given an equal opportunity and you are squandering
your opportunities. If I had contacts like yours, 100s of millions of
dollars investment, 100s (thousands?) of people working on it, millions of
man hours, I would have more than just the first TEC experiment.

2) Watch your press announcements, they're gonna kill you if you get it
wrong. Use the peer review system and be patient.

3) Yes use patents to attract commercial funding but get the fine balance
between what is company confidential and that which is put in the academic
public domain right.

4) Work more on theory because a succinct few pages can catch the eye of
even the most jaded academic. Theory gives you oversight, numbers and helps
you design experiments. Theory represents billions of man-hours.

5) Be humble and realise that even the most mediocre institution, like the
one I'm attending, does have its merits - you are having trouble having
chemicals delivered to residential addresses or industrial units - bring it
into a research institution. It's the only reason why I'm here (heck, my
neighbours think I'm al-qieuda!)

Let me be your role model: 

One man has defined the theory base in several projects, undertaken patent
protection, negotiated with investors, brought the project into the academic
setting, is getting experimental results, WORKS WITH THE SYSTEM (academic,
business, government, social)

One man.

Be honest, you have no excuses.

Just bloody get something working. Slight excess enthalpy won't win the day
because it'll become a talking shop between physical and chemical effects.
You need clear elemental transmutation, that will convince - just like
cooling with one reservoir will bring people on to me for the TEC. (All the
stuff about independent and dependent fluxes is too subtle for the
un-initiates as it is for calorimetry).  

You need to get out of your self imposed ghetto and stop blaming the
'haves'. 

.......................................
Website
http://luna.bton.ac.uk/~roc1
.......................................

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 14 02:47:47 2005
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From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Ghetto research
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Let me coin a term: "Ghetto Research"

CF needs to get out of the doss house and into the suburbs where all the
nice people are.

.......................................
Website
http://luna.bton.ac.uk/~roc1
.......................................

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On Tue, 13 Sep 2005, John Steck wrote:

> Try this: http://www.readplease.com/
>
> -john

Forgot to tell, I run Linux.  Thanks for the tip anyway.

>[snip]

Regards,
   Mathias

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BeardenWeather modification and control might seem really outlandish.  =
But, we could be nearing the point where where weather modification and =
control could be possible.  We do have a black budget infested =
government with plenty of spare cash and research space to pursue =
concepts like weather modification and control.  Has anyone heard of the =
HAARP program in Alaska?  That is an effort to control the ionosphere =
and related natural phenomenon with high frequency radio waves.  Would =
it really be impossible to use this sort of technology for weather =
modification and control?  No.  Perhaps not a perfect science at the =
moment, but if you could engineer a minor storm into a major hurricane =
and generally control its movement within the confines of upper air =
steering patterns (such as using your technology to enhance a High =
pressure system to steer the storm in a desired direction), then you'd =
have serious power at you disposal.  You'd have the power to enhance or =
destroy a storm like Katrina, or direct it towards or away from land =
masses.  Katrina is going to cost an astounding $200 Billion.  That's a =
huge tool for blackmail. =20

I'm not saying weather modification and control are a reality in 2005, I =
have no evidence to support that conclusion, but it is certainly not =
beyond the scope of possibilities in this modern era.  One disturbing =
thing to consider is the fact that the HAARP program is now controlled =
by the Bush Family controlled Caryle Group corporation.  That is a scary =
thought.  HAARP could potentially be used for many sinister purposes =
including massive mind control and altering the natural environment.
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: thomas malloy=20
  To: vortex-l eskimo.com=20
  Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 2:03 AM
  Subject: Bearden


  Vortexians;


  Correct me if I'm wrong but; AFAIK, Tom Bearden has yet to demonstrate =
a working machine. As for modifying the weather, IMHO, that's right out =
of the conspiracy theory fever swamp.



  Subject:        FWD: About Thomas Bearden and Hurricane Katrina, et. =
al.
  Date:   Tue, 13 Sep 2005 10:11:20 -0700
  Status:  Normal
  From:     Patrick Bailey <patrickgbailey sbcglobal.net>
  Save Address
  Thanks Janet!
  Subject: Thomas Bearden...
  Those of us who attended the New Energy Conferences held in Colorado =
in the early 90's had the good fortune
  of hearing Lt. Col. Thomas E. Bearden (retd) speak.  Here is some of =
the latest from his website.
  Janet Lee
  Lt. Col Thomas E. Bearden (retd).   http://www.cheniere.org/toc.html
  PhD, MS (nuclear engineering), BS (mathematics - minor electronic =
engineering)
  Co-inventor - the 2002 Motionless Electromagnetic Generator - a =
replicated overunity EM generator
  Listed in Marquis' Who'sWho in America, 2004=20
  Here is the latest update from Tom Bearden on hurricane Katrina. He =
feels we are now into the kind of scalar electromagnetic war he has been =
warning about for years.  This is from the correspondence section =
http://www.cheniere.org/correspondence/index.html  =20
  Tom Bearden. referring to the work ... US Patent awarded March 26, =
2002. Invented by Tom Bearden and four colleagues. .. =
http://www.cheniere.org/ =20
  Source of foregoing quote by Tom Bearden: For specific (but not all) =
analytical details, see book by Tom Bearden, "Fer de Lance" (updated 2nd =
edition 2002), http://www.cheniere.org/books/ferdelance/s64.htm

  Please see the paper on my website listing more than a dozen of the =
known terrible falsities in the CEM/EE model, at link =
http://www.cheniere.org/techpapers/CEM%20Errors%20-%20final%20paper%20com=
plete%20w%20longer%20abstract4.doc .  Another related paper is at =
http://www.cheniere.org/techpapers/why%20Van%20Flandern%20waterfall%20ana=
logy3.doc .
  E.g., in 1892 Lorentz arbitrarily symmetrized the already =
highly-curtailed Maxwell-Heaviside equations. He thereby ARTIBRARILY =
discarded all asymmetrical Maxwellian systems, including those that =
freely take their excess energy from the vacuum, just to get simpler =
equations easier to algebraically solve. So he restricted our electrical =
power systems to only that class of systems that self-destroy their own =
energy extraction from the vacuum, faster than they power their loads. =
These STUPID symmetrized Lorentz equations are still being taught to all =
our electrical engineers as "gospel" and untouchable.

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<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Bearden</TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
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<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2722" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Weather modification and control might =
seem really=20
outlandish.&nbsp; But, we could be nearing the point where where weather =

modification and control could be possible.&nbsp; We do have a black =
budget=20
infested government with plenty of spare cash and research space to =
pursue=20
concepts like weather modification and control. &nbsp;Has anyone heard =
of the=20
HAARP program in Alaska?&nbsp; That is an effort to control the =
ionosphere and=20
related natural phenomenon with high frequency radio waves.&nbsp; Would =
it=20
really be impossible to use this sort of technology for weather =
modification and=20
control?&nbsp; No.&nbsp; Perhaps not a perfect science at the moment, =
but if you=20
could engineer a minor storm into a major hurricane and generally =
control its=20
movement within the confines of upper air steering patterns (such as =
using your=20
technology to enhance a High pressure system to steer the storm in a =
desired=20
direction), then you'd have serious power at you disposal.&nbsp; You'd =
have the=20
power to enhance or destroy a storm like Katrina, or direct it towards =
or away=20
from land masses.&nbsp; Katrina is going to cost an astounding $200=20
Billion.&nbsp; That's a huge tool for blackmail.&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I'm not saying weather modification and =
control are=20
a reality in 2005, I have no evidence to support that conclusion, but it =

is&nbsp;certainly not beyond the scope of possibilities in this modern=20
era.&nbsp; One disturbing thing to consider is the fact that the HAARP =
program=20
is now controlled by the Bush Family controlled Caryle Group =
corporation.&nbsp;=20
That is a scary thought.&nbsp; HAARP could potentially be used for many =
sinister=20
purposes including massive mind control and altering the natural=20
environment.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3Dtemalloy metro.lakes.com=20
  href=3D"mailto:temalloy metro.lakes.com">thomas malloy</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dvortex-l eskimo.com=20
  href=3D"mailto:vortex-l eskimo.com">vortex-l@eskimo.com</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, September 14, =
2005 2:03=20
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Bearden</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV>Vortexians;</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV>Correct me if I'm wrong but; AFAIK, Tom Bearden has yet to =
demonstrate a=20
  working machine. As for modifying the weather, IMHO, that's right out =
of the=20
  conspiracy theory fever swamp.</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><BR><FONT face=3DVerdana color=3D#000000=20
  =
size=3D-2><B>Subject:</B><X-TAB>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;=20
  </X-TAB>FWD: About Thomas Bearden and Hurricane Katrina, et.=20
  al.<B><BR>Date:</B><X-TAB>&nbsp;&nbsp; </X-TAB>Tue, 13 Sep 2005 =
10:11:20=20
  -0700<B><BR>Status:</B><X-TAB>&nbsp;=20
  </X-TAB>Normal<B><BR>From:</B><X-TAB>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</X-TAB>Patrick=20
  Bailey &lt;patrickgbailey sbcglobal.net&gt;<BR></FONT><FONT =
face=3DCharcoal=20
  color=3D#000000>Save Address</FONT><FONT face=3DVerdana =
color=3D#000000=20
  size=3D-2><BR>Thanks Janet!<BR>Subject: Thomas =
Bearden...<BR></FONT><FONT=20
  face=3D"Times New Roman" color=3D#3333ff size=3D-2>Those of us who =
attended the<B>=20
  New Energy Conferences</B> held in Colorado in the early 90's had the =
good=20
  fortune<BR>of hearing<B> Lt. Col. Thomas E. Bearden (retd)</B> =
speak.&nbsp;=20
  Here is some of the latest from his website.<BR>Janet =
Lee<BR></FONT><FONT=20
  face=3DVerdana color=3D#006666 size=3D-3><U><B>Lt. Col Thomas E. =
Bearden=20
  (retd</B></U></FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" color=3D#000000=20
  size=3D-2>).</FONT><FONT face=3DVerdana color=3D#000000 size=3D-3> =
&nbsp;</FONT><FONT=20
  face=3DVerdana color=3D#006666 size=3D-3><B>=20
  http://www.cheniere.org/toc.html<BR></B></FONT><FONT face=3DVerdana=20
  color=3D#000000 size=3D-3><B>PhD, MS (nuclear engineering), BS =
(mathematics -=20
  minor electronic engineering)<BR>Co-inventor - the</B></FONT><FONT=20
  face=3DVerdana color=3D#006666 size=3D-3><U><B> 2002 Motionless =
Electromagnetic=20
  Generator</B></U></FONT><FONT face=3DVerdana color=3D#000000 =
size=3D-3><B> - a=20
  replicated overunity EM generator<BR></B></FONT><FONT face=3DVerdana=20
  color=3D#006666 size=3D-3><U><B>Listed in Marquis' Who'sWho in =
America,=20
  2004</B></U></FONT><FONT face=3DVerdana color=3D#000000 =
size=3D-3>&nbsp;<BR><B>Here=20
  is the latest update from Tom Bearden on hurricane Katrina. He feels =
we are=20
  now into the kind of scalar electromagnetic war he has been warning =
about for=20
  years.&nbsp; This is from</B></FONT><FONT face=3DVerdana =
color=3D#800080=20
  size=3D-3><B> the correspondence section</B></FONT><FONT =
face=3DVerdana=20
  color=3D#006666 size=3D-3><B>=20
  http://www.cheniere.org/correspondence/index.html</B></FONT><FONT =
face=3DVerdana=20
  color=3D#000000 size=3D-3><B> &nbsp;&nbsp;</B></FONT><FONT =
face=3DVerdana=20
  color=3D#000000 size=3D-2><BR></FONT><FONT face=3DVerdana =
color=3D#000000=20
  size=3D-3><B>Tom Bearden. referring to the work ... US Patent awarded =
March 26,=20
  2002. Invented by Tom Bearden and four colleagues. ..</B></FONT><FONT=20
  face=3DVerdana color=3D#006666 size=3D-3><U><B>=20
  http://www.cheniere.org/</B></U></FONT><FONT face=3DVerdana =
color=3D#000000=20
  size=3D-2> &nbsp;<BR></FONT><FONT face=3DVerdana color=3D#000000 =
size=3D-3><B>Source=20
  of foregoing quote by Tom Bearden: For specific (but not all) =
analytical=20
  details, see book by Tom Bearden, "Fer de Lance" (updated 2nd edition=20
  2002),</B></FONT><FONT face=3DVerdana color=3D#006666 size=3D-3><U><B> =

  http://www.cheniere.org/books/ferdelance/s64.htm</B></U></FONT><FONT=20
  face=3DVerdana color=3D#000000 size=3D-3><B><BR></B></FONT><FONT =
face=3DVerdana=20
  color=3D#000000 size=3D-2><B><BR></B></FONT><FONT face=3DVerdana =
color=3D#000080=20
  size=3D-3><B>Please see the paper on my website listing more than a =
dozen of the=20
  known terrible falsities in the CEM/EE model, at link</B></FONT><FONT=20
  face=3DVerdana color=3D#006666 size=3D-3><U><B>=20
  =
http://www.cheniere.org/techpapers/CEM%20Errors%20-%20final%20paper%2<SPA=
N></SPAN>0complete%20w%20longer%20abstract4.doc</B></U></FONT><FONT=20
  face=3DVerdana color=3D#0000ff size=3D-3><B> .&nbsp;</B></FONT><FONT =
face=3DVerdana=20
  color=3D#000000 size=3D-2><B> Another related paper is =
at</B></FONT><FONT=20
  face=3DVerdana color=3D#000080 size=3D-3><B>=20
  =
http://www.cheniere.org/techpapers/why%20Van%20Flandern%20waterfall%2<SPA=
N></SPAN>0analogy3.doc=20
  .<BR>E.g., in 1892 Lorentz arbitrarily symmetrized the already=20
  highly-curtailed Maxwell-Heaviside equations. He thereby ARTIBRARILY =
discarded=20
  all</B></FONT><FONT face=3DVerdana color=3D#0000ff size=3D-3><B>=20
  asymmetrical</B></FONT><FONT face=3DVerdana color=3D#000080 =
size=3D-3><B> Maxwellian=20
  systems, including those that freely take their excess energy from the =
vacuum,=20
  just to get simpler equations easier to algebraically solve. So he =
restricted=20
  our electrical power systems to only that class of systems that =
self-destroy=20
  their own energy extraction from the vacuum, faster than they power =
their=20
  loads. These STUPID symmetrized Lorentz equations are still being =
taught to=20
  all our electrical engineers as "gospel" and=20
untouchable.<BR></B></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 14 04:13:00 2005
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At 11:56 PM 9/13/2005, Ed Storms inaccurately pontificates:

>Michael Foster wrote:
>>Is Ed Storms actually a Super Double Secret Dysinformation
>>Agent who has penetrated the white knights of Vortex-L?
>>...
>>
>>>Storms: This is not true, a proper person can buy heavy-water. The issue 
>>>is liability. D2O is a poison. Therefore, like all
>>>such chemicals, it is sold only to businesses.
>>
>>Now either Ed is stupid or uninformed, which I seriously
>>doubt, or he assumes that I am stupid and/or uninformed,
>>which I guess is open to speculation.   You need to replace
>>half the water in your body with D2O before it becomes
>>toxic.  On that scale, Karo syrup is more poisonous.
>
>Storms: Well Michael, I have no trouble buying heavy water.


     Despite Storms' claim, it has gotten more difficult to obtain heavy water.

     Despite Storms' claim, compared to many things, D2O is NOT poisonous 
in small amounts.
     In small amounts, D2O is used in medical tests, medical studies, and 
even as a tracer in drug-compliance studies.


    ============================================================================

>  Storms: The difference between D2O and Karo syrup is that you would know 
> that you were drinking D2O.


     Despite Storms' claim to having an unusually-sensitive tongue which he 
alleges can detect D2O,
     one would NOT know they were drinking D2O.  They have the same taste.

     [ 
http://www.google.com/search?hs=v2o&hl=en&lr=&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&q=taste%22heavy+water%22+humans&btnG=Search
     [  FWIW, however, some types of rats reportedly can detect D2O in very 
high doses
           http://www.ebmonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/152/4/677  ]



    Refs:

    Pharmacological uses and perspectives of heavy water and deuterated 
compounds by D.J. Kushner, Alison Baker, and T.G. Dunstall;
    Can. J. Physiol. Pharmacol./Rev. Can. Physiol. Pharmacol. 77(2): 79-88 
(1999)

    Material Safety Data Sheet on 
D2O  http://www.msdsonline.com/Tools/DMSDS.asp?MSDS_Id=56247&Lib=Y

    ECOTOX: http://www.epa.gov/ecotox/

    PubMed: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=PubMed

    CSA (Cambridge Scientific Abstracts): http://www.csa2.com/

    Myth: You can commit suicide by drinking X litres of 
D2O  http://lachlan.bluehaze.com.au/myths/d2o_death.html

    http://www.google.com/search?hs=Wkg&hl=en&lr=&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&q=toxicity+%22heavy+water%22&btnG=Search




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Weather control:

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn7995
<http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn7995> 

 

  _____  

From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On
Behalf Of John Coviello
Sent: 14 September 2005 10:56
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Bearden

 

Weather modification and control might seem really outlandish.  But, we
could be nearing the point where where weather modification and control
could be possible.  We do have a black budget infested government with
plenty of spare cash and research space to pursue concepts like weather
modification and control.  Has anyone heard of the HAARP program in Alaska?
That is an effort to control the ionosphere and related natural phenomenon
with high frequency radio waves.  Would it really be impossible to use this
sort of technology for weather modification and control?  No.  Perhaps not a
perfect science at the moment, but if you could engineer a minor storm into
a major hurricane and generally control its movement within the confines of
upper air steering patterns (such as using your technology to enhance a High
pressure system to steer the storm in a desired direction), then you'd have
serious power at you disposal.  You'd have the power to enhance or destroy a
storm like Katrina, or direct it towards or away from land masses.  Katrina
is going to cost an astounding $200 Billion.  That's a huge tool for
blackmail.  

 

I'm not saying weather modification and control are a reality in 2005, I
have no evidence to support that conclusion, but it is certainly not beyond
the scope of possibilities in this modern era.  One disturbing thing to
consider is the fact that the HAARP program is now controlled by the Bush
Family controlled Caryle Group corporation.  That is a scary thought.  HAARP
could potentially be used for many sinister purposes including massive mind
control and altering the natural environment.

----- Original Message ----- 

From: thomas <mailto:temalloy metro.lakes.com>  malloy 

To: vortex-l eskimo.com <mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com>  

Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 2:03 AM

Subject: Bearden

 

Vortexians;

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but; AFAIK, Tom Bearden has yet to demonstrate a
working machine. As for modifying the weather, IMHO, that's right out of the
conspiracy theory fever swamp.

 


Subject:        FWD: About Thomas Bearden and Hurricane Katrina, et. al.
Date:   Tue, 13 Sep 2005 10:11:20 -0700
Status:  Normal
From:     Patrick Bailey <patrickgbailey sbcglobal.net>
Save Address
Thanks Janet!
Subject: Thomas Bearden...
Those of us who attended the New Energy Conferences held in Colorado in the
early 90's had the good fortune
of hearing Lt. Col. Thomas E. Bearden (retd) speak.  Here is some of the
latest from his website.
Janet Lee
Lt. Col Thomas E. Bearden (retd).   http://www.cheniere.org/toc.html
PhD, MS (nuclear engineering), BS (mathematics - minor electronic
engineering)
Co-inventor - the 2002 Motionless Electromagnetic Generator - a replicated
overunity EM generator
Listed in Marquis' Who'sWho in America, 2004 
Here is the latest update from Tom Bearden on hurricane Katrina. He feels we
are now into the kind of scalar electromagnetic war he has been warning
about for years.  This is from the correspondence section
http://www.cheniere.org/correspondence/index.html   
Tom Bearden. referring to the work ... US Patent awarded March 26, 2002.
Invented by Tom Bearden and four colleagues. .. http://www.cheniere.org/  
Source of foregoing quote by Tom Bearden: For specific (but not all)
analytical details, see book by Tom Bearden, "Fer de Lance" (updated 2nd
edition 2002), http://www.cheniere.org/books/ferdelance/s64.htm

Please see the paper on my website listing more than a dozen of the known
terrible falsities in the CEM/EE model, at link
http://www.cheniere.org/techpapers/CEM%20Errors%20-%20final%20paper%20comple
te%20w%20longer%20abstract4.doc .  Another related paper is at
http://www.cheniere.org/techpapers/why%20Van%20Flandern%20waterfall%20analog
y3.doc .
E.g., in 1892 Lorentz arbitrarily symmetrized the already highly-curtailed
Maxwell-Heaviside equations. He thereby ARTIBRARILY discarded all
asymmetrical Maxwellian systems, including those that freely take their
excess energy from the vacuum, just to get simpler equations easier to
algebraically solve. So he restricted our electrical power systems to only
that class of systems that self-destroy their own energy extraction from the
vacuum, faster than they power their loads. These STUPID symmetrized Lorentz
equations are still being taught to all our electrical engineers as "gospel"
and untouchable.


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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Weather =
control:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><a
href=3D"http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=3Ddn7995">http://www.n=
ewscientist.com/article.ns?id=3Ddn7995</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>=


<div>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</sp=
an></font></b><font
size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] =
<b><span
style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>John Coviello<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> 14 September 2005 =
10:56<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> =
vortex-l eskimo.com<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: =
Bearden</span></font><span
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Weather modification and control might seem really
outlandish.&nbsp; But, we could be nearing the point where where =
weather
modification and control could be possible.&nbsp; We do have a black =
budget
infested government with plenty of spare cash and research space to =
pursue
concepts like weather modification and control. &nbsp;Has anyone heard =
of the
HAARP program in <st1:State w:st=3D"on"><st1:place =
w:st=3D"on">Alaska</st1:place></st1:State>?&nbsp;
That is an effort to control the ionosphere and related natural =
phenomenon with
high frequency radio waves.&nbsp; Would it really be impossible to use =
this
sort of technology for weather modification and control?&nbsp; =
No.&nbsp;
Perhaps not a perfect science at the moment, but if you could engineer =
a minor
storm into a major hurricane and generally control its movement within =
the
confines of upper air steering patterns (such as using your technology =
to
enhance a High pressure system to steer the storm in a desired =
direction), then
you'd have serious power at you disposal.&nbsp; You'd have the power to =
enhance
or destroy a storm like Katrina, or direct it towards or away from land
masses.&nbsp; Katrina is going to cost an astounding $200 =
Billion.&nbsp; That's
a huge tool for blackmail.&nbsp; </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>I'm not saying weather modification and control are =
a
reality in 2005, I have no evidence to support that conclusion, but it
is&nbsp;certainly not beyond the scope of possibilities in this modern
era.&nbsp; One disturbing thing to consider is the fact that the HAARP =
program
is now controlled by the Bush Family controlled Caryle Group =
corporation.&nbsp;
That is a scary thought.&nbsp; HAARP could potentially be used for many
sinister purposes including massive mind control and altering the =
natural
environment.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid black =
1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt=
'>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>----- Original Message ----- =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div style=3D'font-color:black'>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'background:#E4E4E4'><b><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>From:</spa=
n></font></b><font
size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href=3D"mailto:temalloy metro.lakes.com" =
title=3D"temalloy metro.lakes.com">thomas
malloy</a> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>To:</span></font></b><font size=3D2
face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href=3D"mailto:vortex-l eskimo.com" =
title=3D"vortex-l eskimo.com">vortex-l@eskimo.com</a>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> =
Wednesday,
September 14, 2005 2:03 AM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> =
Bearden<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=
=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Vortexians;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Correct me if I'm wrong but; AFAIK, Tom Bearden has yet to =
demonstrate
a working machine. As for modifying the weather, IMHO, that's right out =
of the
conspiracy theory fever swamp.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
</span></font><b><font size=3D1 color=3Dblack face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:
7.5pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black;font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span><=
X-TAB></font></b><font
size=3D1 color=3Dblack face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </X-TAB>FWD: =
About
Thomas Bearden and Hurricane Katrina, et. al.<b><span =
style=3D'font-weight:bold'><br>
Date:</span></b><X-TAB>&nbsp;&nbsp; </X-TAB>Tue, 13 Sep 2005 10:11:20 =
-0700<b><span
style=3D'font-weight:bold'><br>
Status:</span></b><X-TAB>&nbsp; <st1:City w:st=3D"on"><st1:place =
w:st=3D"on"></X-TAB>Normal</st1:place></st1:City><b><span
style=3D'font-weight:bold'><br>
From:</span></b><X-TAB>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </X-TAB>Patrick Bailey
&lt;patrickgbailey sbcglobal.net&gt;<br>
</span></font><font color=3Dblack face=3DCharcoal><span =
style=3D'font-family:Charcoal;
color:black'>Save Address</span></font><font size=3D1 color=3Dblack =
face=3DVerdana><span
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
Thanks Janet!<br>
Subject: Thomas Bearden...<br>
</span></font><font size=3D1 color=3D"#3333ff"><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;
color:#3333FF'>Those of us who attended the<b><span =
style=3D'font-weight:bold'>
New Energy Conferences</span></b> held in <st1:State =
w:st=3D"on"><st1:place
 w:st=3D"on">Colorado</st1:place></st1:State> in the early 90's had the =
good
fortune<br>
of hearing<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'> Lt. Col. Thomas E. =
Bearden (retd)</span></b>
speak.&nbsp; Here is some of the latest from his website.<br>
Janet Lee<br>
</span></font><st1:place w:st=3D"on"><st1:City w:st=3D"on"><b><u><font =
size=3D1
  color=3D"#006666" face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana;
  =
color:#006666;font-weight:bold'>Lt.</span></font></u></b></st1:City><b><=
u><font
 size=3D1 color=3D"#006666" face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:
 Verdana;color:#006666;font-weight:bold'> <st1:State =
w:st=3D"on">Col</st1:State></span></font></u></b></st1:place><b><u><font=

size=3D1 color=3D"#006666" face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:
Verdana;color:#006666;font-weight:bold'> Thomas E. Bearden =
(retd</span></font></u></b><font
size=3D1 color=3Dblack><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;color:black'>).</span></font><font
size=3D1 color=3Dblack face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:black'> &nbsp;</span></font><b><font size=3D1 color=3D"#006666" =
face=3DVerdana><span
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana;color:#006666;font-weight:b=
old'>
http://www.cheniere.org/toc.html<br>
</span></font></b><b><font size=3D1 color=3Dblack face=3DVerdana><span
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black;font-weight:bol=
d'>PhD,
MS (nuclear engineering), BS (mathematics - minor electronic =
engineering)<br>
Co-inventor - the</span></font></b><b><u><font size=3D1 =
color=3D"#006666"
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana;color:#006666;
font-weight:bold'> 2002 Motionless Electromagnetic =
Generator</span></font></u></b><b><font
size=3D1 color=3Dblack face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:black;font-weight:bold'> - a replicated overunity EM =
generator<br>
</span></font></b><b><u><font size=3D1 color=3D"#006666" =
face=3DVerdana><span
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana;color:#006666;font-weight:b=
old'>Listed
in Marquis' Who'sWho in <st1:country-region w:st=3D"on"><st1:place =
w:st=3D"on">America</st1:place></st1:country-region>,
2004</span></font></u></b><font size=3D1 color=3Dblack =
face=3DVerdana><span
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'>&nbsp;<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Here is the latest update from Tom =
Bearden on
hurricane Katrina. He feels we are now into the kind of scalar =
electromagnetic
war he has been warning about for years.&nbsp; This is =
from</span></b></span></font><b><font
size=3D1 color=3Dpurple face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:purple;font-weight:bold'> the correspondence =
section</span></font></b><b><font
size=3D1 color=3D"#006666" face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:
Verdana;color:#006666;font-weight:bold'>
http://www.cheniere.org/correspondence/index.html</span></font></b><b><f=
ont
size=3D1 color=3Dblack face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:black;font-weight:bold'> &nbsp;&nbsp;</span></font></b><font =
size=3D1
color=3Dblack face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:black'><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Tom Bearden. referring to the work =
... US
Patent awarded March 26, 2002. Invented by Tom Bearden and four =
colleagues. ..</span></b></span></font><b><u><font
size=3D1 color=3D"#006666" face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:
Verdana;color:#006666;font-weight:bold'> =
http://www.cheniere.org/</span></font></u></b><font
size=3D1 color=3Dblack face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:black'> &nbsp;<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Source of foregoing quote by Tom =
Bearden: For
specific (but not all) analytical details, see book by Tom Bearden, =
&quot;Fer
de Lance&quot; (updated 2nd edition =
2002),</span></b></span></font><b><u><font
size=3D1 color=3D"#006666" face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:
Verdana;color:#006666;font-weight:bold'>
http://www.cheniere.org/books/ferdelance/s64.htm</span></font></u></b><b=
><font
size=3D1 color=3Dblack face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:black;font-weight:bold'><br>
<br>
</span></font></b><b><font size=3D1 color=3Dnavy face=3DVerdana><span
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana;color:navy;font-weight:bold=
'>Please
see the paper on my website listing more than a dozen of the known =
terrible
falsities in the CEM/EE model, at link</span></font></b><b><u><font =
size=3D1
color=3D"#006666" face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:#006666;font-weight:bold'>
http://www.cheniere.org/techpapers/CEM%20Errors%20-%20final%20paper%20co=
mplete%20w%20longer%20abstract4.doc</span></font></u></b><b><font
size=3D1 color=3Dblue face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:blue;font-weight:bold'> .&nbsp;</span></font></b><b><font =
size=3D1
color=3Dblack face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:black;font-weight:bold'> Another related paper is =
at</span></font></b><b><font
size=3D1 color=3Dnavy face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:navy;font-weight:bold'>
http://www.cheniere.org/techpapers/why%20Van%20Flandern%20waterfall%20an=
alogy3.doc
.<br>
E.g., in 1892 Lorentz arbitrarily symmetrized the already =
highly-curtailed
Maxwell-Heaviside equations. He thereby ARTIBRARILY discarded =
all</span></font></b><b><font
size=3D1 color=3Dblue face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:blue;font-weight:bold'> asymmetrical</span></font></b><b><font =
size=3D1
color=3Dnavy face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:navy;font-weight:bold'> Maxwellian systems, including those that =
freely
take their excess energy from the vacuum, just to get simpler equations =
easier
to algebraically solve. So he restricted our electrical power systems =
to only
that class of systems that self-destroy their own energy extraction =
from the
vacuum, faster than they power their loads. These STUPID symmetrized =
Lorentz
equations are still being taught to all our electrical engineers as
&quot;gospel&quot; and untouchable.</span></font></b><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

</blockquote>

</div>

</body>

</html>

------_=_NextPart_001_01C5B926.F13A72C4--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 14 07:00:45 2005
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Subject: Getting up a head of steam
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*_Getting up a head of steam._*

May people in cold fusion have missed a key engineering point about 
proving CF/Lenr works; we don't need 100% repeatable, or 100% 
reproducible to make steam. Steam is what the world is waiting for. It 
wont make the extreme sceptics believe, nothing will.

We need the following:

    * Six pieces of palladium tested by Ed Storms or someone to ensure
      that it’s not dud palladium.
    * A controller that can vary the current to each in turn.
    * Partitions in the cell so that heat can transfer from one section
      to the other but not charge or much electrolyte.
    * Include a thermometer in each section so you know which cell is
      hottest and which is coolest.
    * A removable heater in the bath.
    * A thermal mass, glass, in the bath (to steady the temperatures).
    * A large heat exchanger that shifts the heat from the bath to the
      working fluid of the steam engine (we don't want caustic lithium
      loaded steam).
          o Alternatively we could use thermoeletric modules from IBN
            thermoelectrics. Their model INBC1-127.08 HT should do the
            job. ($39 each, stock Minimum order $250)
            www.inbthermoelectric.com

    * A diversion valve that stops heat removal from the bath if the
      bath cools to 95º C or less. If we let the palladium cool to 83º
      we lose the reaction, inaccuracies and lags in the thermal control
      means we need to put the threshold at about 95º.
    * Pressurization of the baths outer vessel and the exchanger system
      so the system boils at 150º or 200º.
    * Get the steam engine from the local steam enthusiasts or a steam
      engine from a kit. Don't try invent one yourself.
    * A dynamo/ generator driven by the steam engine.
    * A small battery to buffer the power flow and a large detachable
      power source as a starter.


Stage one: This is called the virtual cell test. Care must be taken to 
ensure that the sceptics don’t get to claim that the final cell is a 
fraud using this virtual cell technique. This stage can be done now with 
no new discoveries and no requirement for deuterium or other restricted 
materials. Test the steam engine and heat exchanger on a dummy heat 
source cycled through the temperatures 95º to 200º. Verify that it all 
works. Then use temperature data from an earlier cell to control the 
dummy heat input. Log energy outputs on the generator and compare to the 
inputs of the earlier cell the heat data came from. Virtual breakeven 
should be noted and quietly reported to those in the field.

Stage two: Place the tested palladium in the loading cells and load. 
Make sure you have working video data systems so you can go live when it 
works.

Stage three: Place the loaded cells in the bath and power up. If there’s 
a 70% probability that each will work then ‘the probability of heat’ 
will be: 0.7+0.7+0.7+0.7+0.7+0.7=4.2 i.e. greater than one. If there is 
an undetected thermal or radiation based variable, then interactions of 
the cells in close proximity to each other might allow us to fire up the 
lot and discover the variable. I suspect we really haven't had adequate 
thermal control. Set up a web cast from the lab but keep it on hold.

Stage four: As the temperature passes 100º switch on the heat exchanger 
to strip off the heat between 100º and 200º.

· If the steam is enough to drive the steam engine then film and 
document it. It will mark the first steam date (That'll be famous one 
day). Publish quickly among the Cold Fusion networks. Publish the 
current, pressure, temperature and which cell of the six was working as 
data.

· If the cell runs the steam engine well enough to power the current to 
one cell out of the six. Close down the current going to one of the non 
working "cool" cells. If the reaction out put or temperature drops you 
know something new and very important.

· If the output is enough to run all the hot cells close the loop by 
routing the power from the generator and leave the external power supply 
running the "cool" cells. Then systematically switch off the "cool" 
cells. Publish quickly among the Cold Fusion networks. Video and record 
all data.

· If you break even with enough power to run the whole thing remove the 
starter power supply. Video, with emails to CNN, UN TV etc and webcast 
the footage live on your website. [Make sure the web cast is still set 
and ready from stage three]

· If it generates one-watt net usable output attach a DC diode light 
bulb and collect the one-watt challenge.

· If one cell was running but dies don't panic! We'll have the data to 
work with.

· If the whole thing quits cold, get all the data you can include the 
footage of the steam engine. We can't rule out the possibility that the 
steam engine failed first. Ensure that you have a running log of watts 
in and watts out for each cell and the device as a whole. Discuss the 
known variables with the video audience while it is running and raise 
the possibility that it will only run for a while. It’s a prototype 
after all. Throw in a few questions the average engineer can answer and 
talk of redundancy in the design.
Thus if it does quit cold the audience is not surprised and thousands of 
engineers will say ‘I think I can make that work’.

· Remember some cells have run for months. Ensure that you have ample 
supplies of lubricants (for the steam engine), coffee, tea etc. If the 
cell is still working after a hour or so play up your surprise. At this 
point the sceptics will be in full flight but don't panic just point out 
that "those who can, do and those that can't teach" "Who do you want to 
believe the person with a working solution to our problems or the person 
with a theory that says there is no future?"


Rules:

1. Never move the device to show it off to a TV crew if they come to see 
it. If you haven't placed it properly to be seen by an audience you’re 
wasting your time. Moving the cells has, I suspect, resulted in the 
reaction conditions being lost. It's bad for most prototypes except 
vehicles. I know some cases where its even bad for vehicles.

2. Don't let sceptics walk up and poke and prod the device. They may 
detach a wire or something and then claim you’re a fraud. "See it 
stopped, this wire its linked to a hidden power source." You could loose 
a lot of data that way. A sceptic in T. T. Brown’s lab almost got killed 
because he disbelieved the high voltage warnings.

        3. Remember that I came up with this crazy idea and give me some
        credit or put my name beside your's on the patent.

If any of the sceptics or anyone from the US patent office is reading 
this; watch the heads roll after the New Orleans enquiries start in 
earnest and then imagine the consequences of a Global fiasco ten times 
bigger. That’s where you sit mate. The deeper you dig the deeper your 
buried.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 14 07:10:43 2005
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> From: Mitchell Swartz 
> 
> At 11:56 PM 9/13/2005, Ed Storms inaccurately pontificates:
> 
> >Michael Foster wrote:
> >>Is Ed Storms actually a Super Double Secret Dysinformation
> >>Agent who has penetrated the white knights of Vortex-L?
> >>...
> >>
> >>>Storms: This is not true, a proper person can buy heavy-water. The issue 
> >>>is liability. D2O is a poison. Therefore, like all
> >>>such chemicals, it is sold only to businesses.
> >>
> >>Now either Ed is stupid or uninformed, which I seriously
> >>doubt, or he assumes that I am stupid and/or uninformed,
> >>which I guess is open to speculation.   You need to replace
> >>half the water in your body with D2O before it becomes
> >>toxic.  On that scale, Karo syrup is more poisonous.
> >
> >Storms: Well Michael, I have no trouble buying heavy water.
> 
> 
>      Despite Storms' claim, it has gotten more difficult to obtain heavy water.
> 
>      Despite Storms' claim, compared to many things, D2O is NOT poisonous 
> in small amounts.
>      In small amounts, D2O is used in medical tests, medical studies, and 
> even as a tracer in drug-compliance studies.
> 
> 
>     ============================================================================
> 
> >  Storms: The difference between D2O and Karo syrup is that you would know 
> > that you were drinking D2O.
> 
> 
>      Despite Storms' claim to having an unusually-sensitive tongue which he 
> alleges can detect D2O,
>      one would NOT know they were drinking D2O.  They have the same taste.
> 
>      [ 
> http://www.google.com/search?hs=v2o&hl=en&lr=&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&q=taste%22heavy+water%22+humans&btnG=Search
>      [  FWIW, however, some types of rats reportedly can detect D2O in very 
> high doses
>            http://www.ebmonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/152/4/677  ]
> 
> 
> 
>     Refs:
> 
>     Pharmacological uses and perspectives of heavy water and deuterated 
> compounds by D.J. Kushner, Alison Baker, and T.G. Dunstall;
>     Can. J. Physiol. Pharmacol./Rev. Can. Physiol. Pharmacol. 77(2): 79-88 
> (1999)
> 
>     Material Safety Data Sheet on 
> D2O  http://www.msdsonline.com/Tools/DMSDS.asp?MSDS_Id=56247&Lib=Y
> 
>     ECOTOX: http://www.epa.gov/ecotox/
> 
>     PubMed: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=PubMed
> 
>     CSA (Cambridge Scientific Abstracts): http://www.csa2.com/
> 
>     Myth: You can commit suicide by drinking X litres of 
> D2O  http://lachlan.bluehaze.com.au/myths/d2o_death.html
> 
>     http://www.google.com/search?hs=Wkg&hl=en&lr=&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&q=toxicity+%22heavy+water%22&btnG=Search


This is a lengthy list of collected evidence to support what I presume is your contention that Mr. Storms often doesn't know what he's talking about.

How much more of your finite resources do you plan to spend on the furtherance of this goal?

End the end, what will you have accomplished? 

Is this what you want to be remembered for as having accomplished in your life?

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

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Mitchell Swartz wrote:

> 
> At 11:56 PM 9/13/2005, Ed Storms inaccurately pontificates:
> 
>> Michael Foster wrote:
>>
>>> Is Ed Storms actually a Super Double Secret Dysinformation
>>> Agent who has penetrated the white knights of Vortex-L?
>>> ...
>>>
>>>> Storms: This is not true, a proper person can buy heavy-water. The 
>>>> issue is liability. D2O is a poison. Therefore, like all
>>>> such chemicals, it is sold only to businesses.
>>>
>>>
>>> Now either Ed is stupid or uninformed, which I seriously
>>> doubt, or he assumes that I am stupid and/or uninformed,
>>> which I guess is open to speculation.   You need to replace
>>> half the water in your body with D2O before it becomes
>>> toxic.  On that scale, Karo syrup is more poisonous.
>>
>>
>> Storms: Well Michael, I have no trouble buying heavy water.
> 
> 
> 
>     Despite Storms' claim, it has gotten more difficult to obtain heavy 
> water.

Please tell me Michael, where have you tried to get heavy water and were 
refused? I have had no trouble getting it from Cambridge Isotopes.
> 
>     Despite Storms' claim, compared to many things, D2O is NOT poisonous 
> in small amounts.

I know this and made no claim it was poisonous in small amounts. 
Nevertheless, it will kill you if you should drink enough.

>     In small amounts, D2O is used in medical tests, medical studies, and 
> even as a tracer in drug-compliance studies.
> 
> 
>    
> ============================================================================ 
> 
> 
>>  Storms: The difference between D2O and Karo syrup is that you would 
>> know that you were drinking D2O.
> 
> 
> 
>     Despite Storms' claim to having an unusually-sensitive tongue which 
> he alleges can detect D2O,
>     one would NOT know they were drinking D2O.  They have the same taste.

Sorry, I left out "not" in the statement.  Michael is correct, H2O and 
D2O taste the same.

The point to this exchange is that difficulty to obtain certain 
chemicals has more to do with legal issues than because the government 
is trying to suppress certain kinds of work. I would be most interested 
in real evidence that I'm wrong.  Has anyone talked to anyone in the 
government who has admitted to such control?

Ed
> 
>     [ 
> http://www.google.com/search?hs=v2o&hl=en&lr=&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&q=taste%22heavy+water%22+humans&btnG=Search 
> 
>     [  FWIW, however, some types of rats reportedly can detect D2O in 
> very high doses
>           http://www.ebmonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/152/4/677  ]
> 
> 
> 
>    Refs:
> 
>    Pharmacological uses and perspectives of heavy water and deuterated 
> compounds by D.J. Kushner, Alison Baker, and T.G. Dunstall;
>    Can. J. Physiol. Pharmacol./Rev. Can. Physiol. Pharmacol. 77(2): 
> 79-88 (1999)
> 
>    Material Safety Data Sheet on D2O  
> http://www.msdsonline.com/Tools/DMSDS.asp?MSDS_Id=56247&Lib=Y
> 
>    ECOTOX: http://www.epa.gov/ecotox/
> 
>    PubMed: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=PubMed
> 
>    CSA (Cambridge Scientific Abstracts): http://www.csa2.com/
> 
>    Myth: You can commit suicide by drinking X litres of D2O  
> http://lachlan.bluehaze.com.au/myths/d2o_death.html
> 
>    
> http://www.google.com/search?hs=Wkg&hl=en&lr=&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&q=toxicity+%22heavy+water%22&btnG=Search 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 14 07:40:43 2005
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Subject: Re: CF Suppression?
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Grimer wrote:

>You could add P&F if they had used a 6inch cube
>of Pd and managed to blow themselves up together
>with half the neighbourhood -
>a case of massive death after heat.

Ha, ha! I doubt that would work, but it sure would be convincing if it did.

You can hear Fleischmann discussing his concerns about safety in this 
interview conducted by Steve Krivit:

http://www.newenergytimes.com/Conversations/Fleischmann.htm

- Jed


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OrionWorks wrote:

>>From: Mitchell Swartz 
>>
>>At 11:56 PM 9/13/2005, Ed Storms inaccurately pontificates:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>Michael Foster wrote:
>>>      
>>>
>>>>Is Ed Storms actually a Super Double Secret Dysinformation
>>>>Agent who has penetrated the white knights of Vortex-L?
>>>>...
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>Storms: This is not true, a proper person can buy heavy-water. The issue 
>>>>>is liability. D2O is a poison. Therefore, like all
>>>>>such chemicals, it is sold only to businesses.
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>Now either Ed is stupid or uninformed, which I seriously
>>>>doubt, or he assumes that I am stupid and/or uninformed,
>>>>which I guess is open to speculation.   You need to replace
>>>>half the water in your body with D2O before it becomes
>>>>toxic.  On that scale, Karo syrup is more poisonous.
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>Storms: Well Michael, I have no trouble buying heavy water.
>>>      
>>>
>>     Despite Storms' claim, it has gotten more difficult to obtain heavy water.
>>
>>     Despite Storms' claim, compared to many things, D2O is NOT poisonous 
>>in small amounts.
>>     In small amounts, D2O is used in medical tests, medical studies, and 
>>even as a tracer in drug-compliance studies.
>>
>>
>>    
>>
>
Hey folks be nice both Mitchell and Ed might be right. There is every 
chance the restrictions Mitchell and others are facing simply are not 
opperating in Ed's part of the USA. With a Los Alamos background he 
might simply never meet anyone who questions his quallification to buy 
the stuff. I know other people who worked at Los Alamos and they got lab 
work done that most others would have never got access to. When I was at 
ANU staff and grad students where just walking into the stores and 
taking things. Nobody worried much as long as you did the paperwork on 
the way out.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 14 07:50:07 2005
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would this system also work at night based on mr beene's post

http://www.energylan.sandia.gov/sunlab/PDFs/solar_dish.pdf

-alex

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 14 08:01:22 2005
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Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 11:00:26 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Buying D2O, buying insurance, and 9/11
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This discussion about buying D2O has gotten off the track. It is quite 
clear to me D2O has become more difficult to purchase, and so have many 
other chemicals. Ed Storms has told us that although he can get D2O, he has 
to go through bureaucratic rigmarole. The government is cracking down on 
all of these things in response to 9/11. This has nothing remotely to do 
with cold fusion.

9/11 has been used as an excuse for all kinds of strange policies. For 
example, I own property that was covered by fully-paid-up liability 
insurance for 45 years, without a claim. A year after 9/11, the coverage 
was abruptly canceled. No insurance company will touch it. Apparently 
coverage was canceled for thousands of other property owners. I asked 
everyone up to state insurance commissioner why. They say, "It is due to 
increased security concerns generated by 9/11."

As Ed says, liability is the other reason the chemical companies are 
tightening up. They do not want to be sued by some idiot who drinks heavy 
water.

By the way, heavy water in small amounts is not toxic, but it often has 
unhealthy glop in it, including tritium, heavy metals, and bacteria adapted 
to living in heavy water that likes to eat the heavy metals. It should be 
purified before use in a CF experiment.

- Jed


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From: Harry Veeder <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: Lifter experiment
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Wesley Bruce wrote:

>> 
> According to Thomas Townsend Brown, bifeld and he originated the
> technology, there is no orientation bias and he claimed tests in vacuum
> but the Nasa lab that owned the vacuum chamber don't back the claim.
> Some one need to build a non metallic vacuum chamber so we can test
> things definitively. There are several technologies: magnetic plasma
> sails; ion engines and some plasma engines that have the potential for
> unmeasured interactions with the vessel that need to be controlled for.
> 


Perhaps this is wrong, but I have heard that the amount of lift
generated by conventional physics is not be enough to account
for the actual lift.

Do you know anything this about this?

Harry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 14 08:08:58 2005
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From: Harry Veeder <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: Lifter experiment
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Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

> In reply to  Harry Veeder's message of Tue, 13 Sep 2005 13:12:18
> -0500:
> Hi,
> [snip]
>> If so, do you feel the experiment is definitive?
> 
> Yes, and about time too.
> 

So lifters appear to be theoretical downers.

Harry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 14 08:17:15 2005
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Being Devil's advocate...

Has anyone done DD on CF. Just where have the hundreds of millions gone and
all the countless man hours? Do you have anything to show for it? Any clear
direction too? It seems the highest labs in the land have been open to you
and you screwed up your chance.

The man in the street won't believe there is suppression. I beg you get your
house in order before you spout the conspiracy stuff.

Surely you must have something by now? Hearsay won't do.

.......................................
Website
http://luna.bton.ac.uk/~roc1
.......................................

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 14 08:18:48 2005
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Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 01:17:52 +1000
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Harry Veeder wrote:

>Wesley Bruce wrote:
>
>  
>
>>According to Thomas Townsend Brown, bifeld and he originated the
>>technology, there is no orientation bias and he claimed tests in vacuum
>>but the Nasa lab that owned the vacuum chamber don't back the claim.
>>Some one need to build a non metallic vacuum chamber so we can test
>>things definitively. There are several technologies: magnetic plasma
>>sails; ion engines and some plasma engines that have the potential for
>>unmeasured interactions with the vessel that need to be controlled for.
>>
>>    
>>
>
>
>Perhaps this is wrong, but I have heard that the amount of lift
>generated by conventional physics is not be enough to account
>for the actual lift.
>
>Do you know anything this about this?
>
>Harry
>
>  
>
Yes that's naudin's claim I believe but measurements are tricky. The 
smoke tests are good but not perfect. A flapping lifter introduces other 
variables.   http://jnaudin.free.fr/

If it does not work in space it does not matter. If it can get us to 40 
miles up there are three technologies that can take us the rest of the 
way.  Plasma rocket will work at that altitude, and electrostatic drive 
acting on the earths magnettic field and an ultralow pressure airship 
with a small rocket buning LOx plus gasious hydrogen.We already have an 
air ship that can reach 42 miles high.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 14 08:49:06 2005
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Something that might be used this winter in place of a Corn Stove when
the family has to decide between eating and keeping from freezing to death.

Wishful thinking about CF-OU ain't going to lower fuel costs this winter.

Dumesic and cohorts at U. of Wisconsin have recently developed a
Tin, Nickel, Aluminum catalyst to convert the starch in biomass such as corn potatoes turnips etc., at ~440 F   400 psi, 
(U.S. Patent 6,699,457 )  

www.uspto.gov

I did this in 1973 using hot   water in a steel  pipe(up to 550 F   1,000 psi) and K2CO3 leached from wood ashes,as a water soluble catalyst.  The K2CO3 in naturally occurring in biomass eventually builds up on it's own.

The exothermic hydrolysis reaction of water with starch portion of the biomass, C6H10O5 or glucose C6H12O6 is as follows.

C6H10O5 + 7 H2O -----> 6 CO2 + 12  H2  + heat or C6H12O6 + 6 H2O -----> 6 CO2 + 12 H2 + heat 

Going by Dumesic's clues, I think adding  Aluminum, Tin, Nickel and Zinc scraps to the alkali solution will create water-soluble
Aluminates, Stannates, Nickelates and Zincates which will enhance the hydrolysis reactions.

Separation of the non-condensible gases from the aqueous solution can be effected using a small circulator pump
and Air Separators such as those used on circulating hot water, "Hydronic" heating systems.

http://www.bellgossett.com/Press/airsep2.html

"Another principle used in the design of the air separators is centrifugal force.Tangential nozzles are used to create a vortex at the center of a cylindrical vessel. Air, being lighter than water, collects in the whirlpool on an air collector screen and is then directed upward. The air either returns to the compression tank in an air control system or, in the case of the air elimination system, is vented to the atmosphere. A big advantage of this concept is that the tank size required is much smaller than that required for a low velocity type separator. B&G's version of this device is called a Rolairtrol. "

Frederick
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Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

<HTML style="FONT-SIZE: x-small; FONT-FAMILY: MS Sans Serif"><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=windows-1251">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<P>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>Something that might be used this winter in place of a Corn Stove when</DIV>
<DIV>the family has to decide between eating and keeping from freezing to death.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Wishful thinking about CF-OU ain't going to lower fuel costs this winter.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Dumesic and cohorts at U. of Wisconsin have recently developed a</DIV>
<DIV>Tin, Nickel, Aluminum catalyst to convert the starch in biomass such as&nbsp;corn potatoes turnips etc., at ~440 F   400 psi, </DIV>
<DIV>(U.S. Patent 6,699,457 )&nbsp; </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://www.uspto.gov">www.uspto.gov</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>I did this in 1973 using hot&nbsp;&nbsp; water in a steel &nbsp;pipe(up to 550 F   1,000 psi)&nbsp;and K2CO3 leached from wood ashes,as a water soluble catalyst.&nbsp; The K2CO3 in naturally occurring in biomass eventually builds up on it's own.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The exothermic hydrolysis reaction of water with starch portion of the biomass, C6H10O5 or glucose C6H12O6 is as follows.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>C6H10O5 + 7 H2O -----&gt; 6 CO2 + 12&nbsp; H2&nbsp; + heat or C6H12O6 + 6 H2O -----&gt; 6 CO2 + 12 H2 + heat </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Going by Dumesic's clues, I think adding &nbsp;Aluminum, Tin, Nickel and Zinc scraps to the alkali solution will create water-soluble</DIV>
<DIV>Aluminates, Stannates, Nickelates and Zincates which will enhance the hydrolysis reactions.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Separation of the non-condensible gases from the aqueous solution can be effected using a small circulator pump</DIV>
<DIV>and Air Separators such as those used on circulating hot water, "Hydronic" heating systems.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://www.bellgossett.com/Press/airsep2.html">http://www.bellgossett.com/Press/airsep2.html</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>"Another principle used in the design of the air separators is centrifugal force.Tangential nozzles are used to create a vortex at the center of a cylindrical vessel. Air, being lighter than water, collects in the whirlpool on an air collector screen and is then directed upward. The air either returns to the <A href="http://fhaspapp.ittind.com/homeowners/DictionaryOfTermsDetail.asp?ListID=205">compression tank</A> in an air control system or, in the case of the air elimination system, is vented to the atmosphere. A big advantage of this concept is that the tank size required is much smaller than that required for a low velocity type separator. B&amp;G's version of this device is called a <A href="http://fhaspapp.ittind.com/literature/productPages/Parts-Rolairtrol-Air-Separator-For-Hot-and-Chilled-Water.asp?catalog=1">Rolairtrol</A>.&nbsp;"</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Frederick</DIV></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<P></P></BODY></HTML>
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Alex Caliostro"


> would this system also work at night ....?
> http://www.energylan.sandia.gov/sunlab/PDFs/solar_dish.pdf

Alex,

It's not that simple, unfortunately.

But these Solar-Stirling arrays can definitely be a part of an 
expanded and reengineered system ... leading to a more affordable 
and ecologically sound hydrogen (or battery) economy... and NOW 
(at least within the short term).

The interesting thing is that now we seem to have two very 
different but extremely promising ways to increase the Solar 
Stirling efficiency - simply through the synergy of on-site 
combination - leading to much a much higher desirability of the 
Sandia-type Solar Stirling (SSS) than as a stand-alone system.

By that I mean, starting with the base SSS you would need to 
"site" these is a high desert - of course New Mexico is perfect, 
as is much of the southwest USA. Second you need to provide a 
different "head" (or operative unit) to replace the Stirling 
pistons at night (this swap can be done automatically). This 
night-time head would be a simple water-based multi-tube heat 
exchanger (water stored in underground cisterns is cooled from say 
80F to 40F.). Third, you need to modify the SSS head to 
accommodated active-cold-water-cooling (using the chilled water 
from the night before). This will bump the Carnot efficiency of 
the Stirling way up over air cooling. Fourth you need to add a 
whole secondary array of improved-zinc-refining dishes (improved 
with the reverse-SOFC if that is feasible) which use the 
electrical power from SSS array to make large amounts of zinc from 
zinc oxide (which is recycled).

The zinc is available for use in either zinc-air batteries or for 
onboard hydrogen generation for transportation needs - replacing 
fossil fuels. I don't know which route is more efficient, 
batteries or hydrogen fuel-cells, but the zinc-air battery may end 
up being a better overall option for transportation because of 
simplicity.

The batteries could be put right into a Prius for instance. 
Instead of a home charge you would do a zinc-exchange at the 
new-age filling station (or both). Solar zinc batteries are likely 
to be much cheaper to recharge via zinc exchange, than via grid 
electricity. My preliminary calculations show that solar-zinc 
might be the equivalent of 2 cents per kwh equivalent (if the SSS 
gives 6 cent equivalent electricity- excluding profit and 
transportation costs).

So here we have a kind of natural synergism emerging !

Best of all, it is truly no-carbon instead of carbon neutral - the 
actual carbon-neutrality of using biomass is a bit questionable 
anyway.

This is an area of great promise. The combination system is likely 
to be much more efficient at capturing the maximum possible energy 
of solar radiation than is wind, for instance - since wind cannot 
be reliably coordinated with solar zinc refining - nor to grid 
requirements of power demand. Wind can be fickle but in parts of 
the southwest, the sun shines brightly 350 days a year and nights 
are relatively cool, even in the summer.

Jones

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To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Due Diligence on CF
In-Reply-To: <BE76853CB39E3B47B014207F18386A8F13EA445A moulsecoomb.bton.
 ac.uk>
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R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk wrote:

>Being Devil's advocate...
>
>Has anyone done DD on CF. Just where have the hundreds of millions gone and
>all the countless man hours?

Hundreds of millions of yen may have been spent on CF, but not dollars. I 
doubt that $10 million has been spent outside of Mitsubishi, and most of 
the expense there is for the clean room, which is used for other 
experiments as far as I know.

Considering the tiny amounts of money that have been spent on cold fusion 
progress has been extraordinary. We have gone from knowing practically 
nothing to being able to reproduce the reaction nearly 100% of the time 
with several different techniques. The breakthroughs reported already merit 
a half-dozen Nobel prizes at least. Iwamura's work is worth one in physics 
and one in chemistry. (He has demonstrated that physics and chemistry are 
more or less the same thing, so I suppose he is due one prize in each 
category.)


>  Do you have anything to show for it? Any clear
>direction too? It seems the highest labs in the land have been open to you
>and you screwed up your chance.

The highest labs were open briefly, and the results from them should have 
convinced every scientist on earth that cold fusion is a real nuclear 
effect, it is revolutionary, and it may well become a practical source of 
energy. In particular, the research conducted with the $5 million grant 
from the state of Utah was a triumph. See:

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/WillFGtritiumgen.pdf

People who know nothing about cold fusion and who have never bothered to 
read a paper have often ridiculed the state of Utah for providing this 
money. The taxpayers of Utah should realize that no money has ever been 
better spent, and this was one of the most important and successful 
experiments in history.


>The man in the street won't believe there is suppression.

When the man on the street reads nothing and knows nothing, his beliefs 
have no merit, no relevancy, and they are beyond our control. I do not 
think there is any organized suppression of cold fusion, or anything like a 
conspiracy, but I know several hundred scientists and decision makers who 
have openly and proudly suppressed cold fusion, and who ridicule it at 
every opportunity. They include people such as Robert Park and the three 
Nobel laureates who endorsed the Taubes book. I know for a fact that these 
people know nothing about cold fusion, because I have spoken with many of 
them, and read their statements and books.


>  I beg you get your
>house in order before you spout the conspiracy stuff.

No one here has mentioned a conspiracy. Frankly, I am sick of being accused 
of conspiracy theories. Suppression and conspiracy are two separate and 
unrelated concepts. A conspiracy is organized, covert, and conducted by a 
small number of people. The suppression of cold fusion is unorganized; it 
could not be more overt; and it is conducted by thousands of people.


>Surely you must have something by now? Hearsay won't do.

By "something" I assume you mean proof that people are suppressing cold 
fusion. (Not proof that CF exists.) I have hundreds of press clippings and 
a dozen books written by people like Taubes that look like suppression and 
ridicule to me. For a recent example see the DoE's December 2004 review, 
and its outrageous treatment of Melvin Miles. See: 
http://lenr-canr.org/Collections/DoeReview.htm. See also the way the Navy 
treated Miles: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJintroducti.pdf. If 
that is not blatant scientific suppression, I cannot imagine what would be.

- Jed


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Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 12:09:35 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Aqueous Catalytic Hydrogen-Methane Generation Using
  Biomass 
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Frederick Sparber wrote:

>Dumesic and cohorts at U. of Wisconsin have recently developed a
>Tin, Nickel, Aluminum catalyst to convert the starch in biomass such as 
>corn potatoes turnips etc., at ~440 F   400 psi,
>(U.S. Patent 6,699,457 )

Others are working on bioengineering methods of doing this. See the paper 
by Schultz and Woolsey I mentioned the other day:

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/calcars-news/message/68

QUOTE:

"These developments may be compared in importance to the invention of 
thermal and catalytic cracking of petroleum in the first decades of the 
20th century ­ processes which made it possible to use a very large share 
of petroleum to make gasoline rather than the tiny share that was available 
at the beginning of the century. For example, with such 
genetically-engineered biocatalysts it is not only grains of corn but corn 
cobs and most of the rest of the corn plant that may be used to make 
ethanol. . . ."

- Jed



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From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: RE: Due Diligence on CF
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Jed,
My advice: Don't call it CF just report on excess heat or anomalous isotope
ratios in Pd alloys after refining process or some such. Keep on with the
peer review, get it into universities and get young grad students on it.
Once you are in, keep quiet, buy your chemicals and get the work done. Hide
the research amongst other kosher university activity such as teaching but
be part of the university environment, use its letterhead, facilities and
representation (carefully). Build networks with mainstream people.

I think you set the guns blazing too early and people see you and shoot you.
You're asking for it. 

You remind me of teenagers. It's like that big date you always wanted with
that beautiful girl, you get it then talk sh.t all night about how important
you are. Arghhhh! Loser!

Be patient, be humble. 

Remi.

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Subject: Re: CF Suppression?
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At 10:09 AM 9/14/2005, Steven Vincent Johnson wrote:
> >      Despite Storms' claim, it has gotten more difficult to obtain 
> heavy water.
> >      Despite Storms' claim, compared to many things, D2O is NOT poisonous
> > in small amounts.
> >      In small amounts, D2O is used in medical tests, medical studies, and
> > even as a tracer in drug-compliance studies.
> > > 
> ============================================================================
> >
> > >  Storms: The difference between D2O and Karo syrup is that you would 
> know
> > > that you were drinking D2O.
> >
> >
> >      Despite Storms' claim to having an unusually-sensitive tongue 
> which he
> > alleges can detect D2O, one would NOT know they were drinking 
> D2O.  They have the same taste.
> >      [
> > 
> http://www.google.com/search?hs=v2o&hl=en&lr=&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&q=taste%22heavy+water%22+humans&btnG=Search
> >      [  FWIW, however, some types of rats reportedly can detect D2O in 
> very
> > high doses      http://www.ebmonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/152/4/677  ]
> >
> >     Refs:
> >     Pharmacological uses and perspectives of heavy water and deuterated
> > compounds by D.J. Kushner, Alison Baker, and T.G. Dunstall;
> >     Can. J. Physiol. Pharmacol./Rev. Can. Physiol. Pharmacol. 77(2): 79-88
> > (1999)
> >     Material Safety Data Sheet on
> > D2O  http://www.msdsonline.com/Tools/DMSDS.asp?MSDS_Id=56247&Lib=Y
> >     ECOTOX: http://www.epa.gov/ecotox/
> >     PubMed: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=PubMed
> >     CSA (Cambridge Scientific Abstracts): http://www.csa2.com/
> >     Myth: You can commit suicide by drinking X litres of
> > D2O  http://lachlan.bluehaze.com.au/myths/d2o_death.html
> > 
> http://www.google.com/search?hs=Wkg&hl=en&lr=&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&q=toxicity+%22heavy+water%22&btnG=Search
Steven Vincent Johnson:
>This is a lengthy list of collected evidence to support what I presume is 
>your contention that Mr. Storms often doesn't know what he's talking about.
>How much more of your finite resources do you plan to spend on the 
>furtherance of this goal?
>End the end, what will you have accomplished?




"Talk is based upon the assumption that you can get somewhere if you
    keep putting one word after another."  -    Iblis Ginjo 


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Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 12:57:49 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: Due Diligence on CF
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R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk wrote:

>My advice: Don't call it CF just report on excess heat or anomalous isotope
>ratios in Pd alloys after refining process or some such.

It does not make the slightest difference what you call it. Scientists will 
instantly recognize what you mean.


>Keep on with the peer review . . .

Most peer reviewers summarily reject cold fusion. The peer review system 
has broken down in the case of cold fusion. Despite this, most major cold 
fusion results have passed peer review several times, and the reviews have 
been far more severe than usual. How many times do you demand we overcome 
this same barrier? For that matter, how many replications do you want? Five 
or 10 should be enough for any claim, and cold fusion has been replicated 
hundreds of times.

People who oppose cold fusion live in a "Groundhog Day" (movie) based 
world. Events never make an impression. Everything is repeated from scratch 
every single day. It does not matter how many times papers have passed peer 
review, or how many high Sigma experiments have been published -- every 
morning we wake up back at square one, with mindless fools demanding that 
we pass peer-review, replication and other goals that were met in 1990.


>. . . get it into universities and get young grad students on it.

Any grad student who does cold fusion will not be a grad student for long. 
He will be kicked out, and he will be persona non grata at every university 
and corporation.


>Be patient, be humble.

We are altogether too patient. We will all be dead at this rate. Look at 
the photos of ICCF conference attendees, shown at LENR-CANR.org. They are 
all in their 70s and 80s. There also the world's leading experts in 
electrochemistry, material science and other fields. They literally wrote 
the books on these subjects. It is ridiculous to demand that someone like 
Fleischmann, Bockris or Josephson be humble.

- Jed


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From: Harry Veeder <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: Due Diligence on CF
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Jed Rothwell wrote:

> 
> No one here has mentioned a conspiracy. Frankly, I am sick of being accused
> of conspiracy theories. Suppression and conspiracy are two separate and
> unrelated concepts. A conspiracy is organized, covert, and conducted by a
> small number of people. The suppression of cold fusion is unorganized; it
> could not be more overt; and it is conducted by thousands of people.
> 

Similar to discrimination based on race or class.

Harry

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From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: RE: Due Diligence on CF
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 18:08:41 +0100
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Jed,
I disagree, been there, done that. If you've worked with the patent system
or journeyman scientists in any institution you can meld them to your
objective. If you've ever seen it, see Nigel Hawthorne in "Yes Minister"
which is a British Sitcom about the political system. I love the one about
smoking, tax and the health system!

Get smarter. It's that girl on the sofa and she thinks it's time to go
home... You know what you want.
Remi.

-----Original Message-----
From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On
Behalf Of Jed Rothwell
Sent: 14 September 2005 17:58
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: RE: Due Diligence on CF

R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk wrote:

>My advice: Don't call it CF just report on excess heat or anomalous isotope
>ratios in Pd alloys after refining process or some such.

It does not make the slightest difference what you call it. Scientists will 
instantly recognize what you mean.


>Keep on with the peer review . . .

Most peer reviewers summarily reject cold fusion. The peer review system 
has broken down in the case of cold fusion. Despite this, most major cold 
fusion results have passed peer review several times, and the reviews have 
been far more severe than usual. How many times do you demand we overcome 
this same barrier? For that matter, how many replications do you want? Five 
or 10 should be enough for any claim, and cold fusion has been replicated 
hundreds of times.

People who oppose cold fusion live in a "Groundhog Day" (movie) based 
world. Events never make an impression. Everything is repeated from scratch 
every single day. It does not matter how many times papers have passed peer 
review, or how many high Sigma experiments have been published -- every 
morning we wake up back at square one, with mindless fools demanding that 
we pass peer-review, replication and other goals that were met in 1990.


>. . . get it into universities and get young grad students on it.

Any grad student who does cold fusion will not be a grad student for long. 
He will be kicked out, and he will be persona non grata at every university 
and corporation.


>Be patient, be humble.

We are altogether too patient. We will all be dead at this rate. Look at 
the photos of ICCF conference attendees, shown at LENR-CANR.org. They are 
all in their 70s and 80s. There also the world's leading experts in 
electrochemistry, material science and other fields. They literally wrote 
the books on these subjects. It is ridiculous to demand that someone like 
Fleischmann, Bockris or Josephson be humble.

- Jed

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Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 12:19:19 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Weather Control
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R D Cornwall posted;

Weather modification and control might seem really outlandish.  But, we
could be nearing the point where where weather modification and control
could be possible.

The author of this website, www.weatherwars.info says that it is. I 
question the scalar wave part of it. A plane seeding clouds is one 
thing,. but creating and steering a hurricane, I don't think so.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 14 10:46:17 2005
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From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk
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Subject: RE: Weather Control
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 18:44:58 +0100
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Thomas,
Careful with your posting, it looks like you're quoting me.

I like the one with the US company and the highly hygroscopic gels, can't
remember what they are called... Anyway they fly up into a storm and drop
these things into a thunder cloud, they absorb the water and humidity and
drop to the ground so it won't rain on your parade. The hurricane is a
bigger undertaking but the effect works.

I can't see anything sinister (apologies to the left leaning :) about this.
Not a freemason, mammonist, illuminati, tri-lateral commission, bilderberg
or Anunaki in sight.

>From the number of posts you can probably guess I'm doing something I don't
like - form filling for a meeting. I have to water down things and lie to
make it easier for them. All sophistry and politics. Wouldn't life be easier
and more productive...
R.

-----Original Message-----
From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On
Behalf Of thomas malloy
Sent: 14 September 2005 18:19
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Weather Control

R D Cornwall posted;

Weather modification and control might seem really outlandish.  But, we
could be nearing the point where where weather modification and control
could be possible.

The author of this website, www.weatherwars.info says that it is. I 
question the scalar wave part of it. A plane seeding clouds is one 
thing,. but creating and steering a hurricane, I don't think so.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 14 10:57:02 2005
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To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: Due Diligence on CF
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R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk wrote:

>I disagree, been there, done that. If you've worked with the patent system
>or journeyman scientists in any institution you can meld them to your
>objective.

You are probably right about this. Opponents of cold fusion have worked 
closely with the patent system, and they have melded it to their 
objectives. They did this by various methods including harassing and firing 
patent office employees. They reject patents for absurd reasons that would 
never be applied normally.

As you suggest, the patent system is politicized. Unfortunately our 
political enemies got there first, and they have taken over the 
institution. As things stand, I do not see how we can fight them. I think 
it is a mistake to attack the enemy in his stronghold.

- Jed


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Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 13:57:50 -0500
From: Harry Veeder <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: Lifter experiment
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Wesley Bruce wrote:

> Harry Veeder wrote:
> 
>> Wesley Bruce wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> According to Thomas Townsend Brown, bifeld and he originated the
>>> technology, there is no orientation bias and he claimed tests in vacuum
>>> but the Nasa lab that owned the vacuum chamber don't back the claim.
>>> Some one need to build a non metallic vacuum chamber so we can test
>>> things definitively. There are several technologies: magnetic plasma
>>> sails; ion engines and some plasma engines that have the potential for
>>> unmeasured interactions with the vessel that need to be controlled for.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Perhaps this is wrong, but I have heard that the amount of lift
>> generated by conventional physics is not be enough to account
>> for the actual lift.
>> 
>> Do you know anything this about this?
>> 
>> Harry
>> 
>> 
>> 
> Yes that's naudin's claim I believe but measurements are tricky. The
> smoke tests are good but not perfect. A flapping lifter introduces other
> variables.   http://jnaudin.free.fr/
> 
> If it does not work in space it does not matter. If it can get us to 40
> miles up there are three technologies that can take us the rest of the
> way.  Plasma rocket will work at that altitude, and electrostatic drive
> acting on the earths magnettic field and an ultralow pressure airship
> with a small rocket buning LOx plus gasious hydrogen.We already have an
> air ship that can reach 42 miles high.
> 

My primary interest in this effect is theoretical rather than
its possible uses.

Naudin's second and more refined smoke test suggests that something
unconventional is happening.


First test: http://jlnlabs.imars.com/lifters/smketst/

Second test: http://jlnlabs.imars.com/lfpt/html/lfptsmk.htm

Harry

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Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 13:45:33 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Due Diligence on CF
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Harry Veeder wrote:

>Suppression and conspiracy are two separate and
> > unrelated concepts. A conspiracy is organized, covert, and conducted by a
> > small number of people. The suppression of cold fusion is unorganized; it
> > could not be more overt; and it is conducted by thousands of people.
> >
>
>Similar to discrimination based on race or class.

Exactly right!

I suppose it is possible that in addition to this overt suppression, there 
is also a clandestine conspiracy to prevent cold fusion research. As I said 
in the book, if there is a conspiracy, I have not heard about it, and the 
conspirators have not invited me to their monthly meetings. However, I see 
no need for a conspiracy because the overt suppression, hostility, and 
ridicule quashed nearly all research in the U.S. long ago, and it prevents 
the publication of news about cold fusion in nearly all journals and 
newspapers.

There is no way I would find out about a conspiracy, but in the distant 
future some historian might stumble over evidence for one. There may be 
e-mail or notes from meetings. Someone like Zimmerman may be involved. He 
seems to enjoy a cloak and dagger techniques; he tried to hide his badge 
from me when I met him at the APS conference.

Before 1963, racial discrimination in U.S. southern states was both overt 
*and* covert. The overt discrimination was completely open and obvious, 
with separate schools, separate drinking fountains, different pay scales, 
laws against interracial marriage and so on. Meanwhile the Klu Klux Klan 
and some so-called citizens councils secretly conspired to commit 
terrorism, reprisals et cetera. Some of these "council" files came to light 
years later.

- Jed


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From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: RE: Due Diligence on CF
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 19:10:29 +0100
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Jed and CF'er
May be you are in a rut and pissed off. Negativity is not going to help you
is it? Of course there are a million and one conspiracies against you when
you are having a bad time!

As Ali G (Sacha Baron Cohen, comedian) might have put it: 

"Is it cos I is CF? Da system is da Babylon, da system is da pimp, da money
grubbing b.tch."

Or Linton Qweshi Johnston (I think, dub poet, can't remember all of it)

Whenna first came to London town
Me have to work on da underground
'Af to work long hours all day
For very likle pay
...
England 'a b.tch
There's no escaping it.

R.

-----Original Message-----
From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On
Behalf Of Jed Rothwell
Sent: 14 September 2005 18:56
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: RE: Due Diligence on CF

R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk wrote:

>I disagree, been there, done that. If you've worked with the patent system
>or journeyman scientists in any institution you can meld them to your
>objective.

You are probably right about this. Opponents of cold fusion have worked 
closely with the patent system, and they have melded it to their 
objectives. They did this by various methods including harassing and firing 
patent office employees. They reject patents for absurd reasons that would 
never be applied normally.

As you suggest, the patent system is politicized. Unfortunately our 
political enemies got there first, and they have taken over the 
institution. As things stand, I do not see how we can fight them. I think 
it is a mistake to attack the enemy in his stronghold.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 14 11:38:16 2005
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Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 14:37:15 -0500
From: Harry Veeder <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: Lifter experiment
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I wrote:


> 
> Naudin's second and more refined smoke test suggests that something
> unconventional is happening.
> 
> 
> First test: http://jlnlabs.imars.com/lifters/smketst/
> 
> Second test: http://jlnlabs.imars.com/lfpt/html/lfptsmk.htm
> 


Sorry, I didn't read closely enough. This second test was not of a lifter,
but of Lafforgue's Field Propulsion Thruster.

Anyway has anyone sealed a lifter in expoxy resin (like Lafforgue' device
uses) to see if any lift is generated?

Harry
 

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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
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Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 12:42:52 -0500
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Jed wrote:
>
> Frederick Sparber wrote:
>
> >Dumesic and cohorts at U. of Wisconsin have recently developed a
> >Tin, Nickel, Aluminum catalyst to convert the starch in biomass such as 
> >corn potatoes turnips etc., at ~440 F   400 psi,
> >(U.S. Patent 6,699,457 )
>
> Others are working on bioengineering methods of doing this. See the paper 
> by Schultz and Woolsey I mentioned the other day:
>
> http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/calcars-news/message/68
>
> QUOTE:
>
> "These developments may be compared in importance to the invention of 
> thermal and catalytic cracking of petroleum in the first decades of the 
> 20th century ­ processes which made it possible to use a very large share 
> of petroleum to make gasoline rather than the tiny share that was
available 
> at the beginning of the century. For example, with such 
> genetically-engineered biocatalysts it is not only grains of corn but
corn 
> cobs and most of the rest of the corn plant that may be used to make 
> ethanol. . . ."
>
This is a fact. The University of Florida developed an E. Coli bug to do
this.

However, my and Standard Oil's original and now the U. Wisconsin thermal
approach is user friendly
and immediately available for the do-it-yourself type, that has access to
shelled corn, turnips, potatoes, grist
or low cost flour. Hominy Grits (made by boiling in corn wood ash leachant)
are also useful for eating or heating.

A case in point:

http://www.cropchoice.com/leadstryagissues082605.html

Quote:

"At the 700-megawatt energy plant, Sellers says 55,000 3- by 4- by 8-foot
square bales must be produced to consistently meet the input quota. Because
of the costs associated with growing switchgrass, combined with the low
cost of coal, it is a constant challenge to find ways to bolster production
efficiency to cost effectively meet energy demands. 

"Unfortunately, coal is dirt cheap, and it's going to stay dirt cheap. A
baler costs $75,000, and you don't have an electric plant on every street
corner. We have to truck it 55 miles from here to the plant," Sellers says.
"We've pushed it and applied more nitrogen early in the growing season just
to see what the soil is capable of. Four tons per acre is where it cash
flows, but we can raise as much as six tons/acre." 

Utilizing switchgrass for energy has another avenue for the future:
Ethanol. With cellulose ethanol technology on the verge of reaching the
mainstream, switchgrass could be an alternative to more conventional
ethanol production methods, according to Sellers. 

"We've got the cellulose-to-ethanol technologies in place now, so this is
what you're going to start seeing spring up if we have some policy that
would help a little bit," he says. "The corn people have the policy to
support them. They've worked super-hard for it. 

"We have seen a lot better net energy gain with a bale of switchgrass than
with a bushel of corn, when making ethanol out of it." 
Unquote:

Mush you Huskies.  :-)

Frederick
> 
> - Jed
>
>



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 14 12:05:41 2005
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From: OrionWorks <orionworks charter.net>
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> > From: Steven Vincent Johnson:
> From: Mitchell Swartz 

> > This is a lengthy list of collected evidence to support what
> > I presume is your contention that Mr. Storms often doesn't
> > know what he's talking about. How much more of your finite
> > resources do you plan to spend on the  furtherance of this goal?
> > End the end, what will you have accomplished?

> "Talk is based upon the assumption that you can get somewhere
> if you keep putting one word after another."  -    Iblis Ginjo 

Onc can interpret the context Gino's comments in several ways. Two interpretations are:

(1) Me putting "one word after another" is nothing more than meaningless prattle.

(2) By putting "one word after another" your goal will be to suggest that Mr. Storms often doesn't know what he is talking about.

I'm sure there are additional interpretations.

I'm aware of the fact that you are well known in many circles (certainly more known than I), and that you have performed CF experiments. There is a photo of you in the lenr-canr.org web site that shows you explaining experimental results to an attendee of the ICCF-10 Conference.

See: http://lenr-canr.org/Collections/ICCF10.htm

I sincerely hope the fruits of your CF analysis will eventually bare fruit if they haven't already, for all of our sake.

It seems to me that you might increase your chances of realizing the fruits of your labor if more time was spent explaining and clarifying the conclusions of your experiments as compared to focusing on a personal assumption that Mr. Storms doesn't always know what he is talking about. Granted, it's only my personal opinion but I don't think it reflects well on you.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 14 12:17:15 2005
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R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk wrote:

>  Of course there are a million and one conspiracies against you when
>you are having a bad time!

YOU are the only one claiming there is a conspiracy! I say there is no 
conspiracy, and yet you persist in accusing me of conspiracy mongering. 
This is highly irrational.

This is not surprising, You are not the first to accuse me of doing things 
I have not done, and saying things I have not said. This is a logical 
fallacy called a straw man argument. Yours is particularly egregious 
example because I am saying just the opposite of what you accuse me of saying.


>May be you are in a rut and pissed off.

The nation is in a rut. The scientific establishment is in a rut. I am 
standing outside the rut, looking down a clear road ahead, and urging 
people to join me.


>Negativity is not going to help you is it?

On the contrary, negativity may well help. After all else failed, it worked 
splendidly in the 1960s to promote integration and progress in race 
relations. My mother was working in the Bureau of Commerce back then, and 
she had many black colleagues. These were professionals -- statisticians, 
programmers and social science researchers. Many were first generation 
college graduates. As you would expect, they were thoroughly bourgeois in 
attitude, dress, manners, social mores and so on. No one is more firmly 
middle-class and respectable than a person who has escaped from poverty. In 
the 1960s Washington and the federal government was still quite segregated, 
and this group was still fighting for promotion to management and equal 
treatment. They were using oh-so-respectable techniques of reasoned 
negotiation and quiet diplomacy: no demonstrations, no threat of lawsuits, 
nothing that might be construed as "agitation." And as you would expect, 
they were getting nowhere. (They have been doing this sort of thing since 
1865 without success.) Upper management would patronize them, pat them on 
the head, praise them for being such goody-goody upstanding people, and 
then ignore them. Finally around 1966 they took a lesson from black 
militants, and changed their style. They grew Afros, they wore dashikis, 
they started lecturing In Your Face about black power. They threatened to 
hold a demonstration in the cafeteria! Most important, they scared the hell 
out of the management all the way up the federal bureaucracy. Within months 
they achieved more progress than they had in the previous 20 years, and the 
change was permanent.

The thing is, this was an act. It was a political performance. These were 
the same middle-class, middle-aged, staid people they had always been. 
Nobody listened to them until they threatened to break the rules and make a 
stink.

Based on this incident, I have long recommended that CF researchers act up, 
make trouble, and maybe chain themselves to the White House fence. Anything 
to attract attention. Playing by the rules of peer review has not worked, 
and I doubt it ever will.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 14 12:33:08 2005
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: Due Diligence on CF
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I wrote:

>R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk wrote:
>>
>>  Of course there are a million and one conspiracies against you when
>>you are having a bad time!
>
>YOU are the only one claiming there is a conspiracy!

Oops. Correction: YOU are the only one who says that *I* say there is a 
conspiracy.

We agree there is no conspiracy. Okay? Nobody claimed there is one, so stop 
putting words in my mouth.

- Jed


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Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 16:47:39 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: CF Suppression?
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At 03:03 PM 9/14/2005, you wrote:
> > > From: Steven Vincent Johnson:
> > From: Mitchell Swartz
>
> > > This is a lengthy list of collected evidence to support what
> > > I presume is your contention that Mr. Storms often doesn't
> > > know what he's talking about. How much more of your finite
> > > resources do you plan to spend on the  furtherance of this goal?
> > > End the end, what will you have accomplished?
>
> > "Talk is based upon the assumption that you can get somewhere
> > if you keep putting one word after another."  -    Iblis Ginjo
>
>Onc can interpret the context Gino's comments in several ways. Two 
>interpretations are:
>
>(1) Me putting "one word after another" is nothing more than meaningless 
>prattle.
>
>(2) By putting "one word after another" your goal will be to suggest that 
>Mr. Storms often doesn't know what he is talking about.
>
>I'm sure there are additional interpretations.
>
>I'm aware of the fact that you are well known in many circles (certainly 
>more known than I), and that you have performed CF experiments. There is a 
>photo of you in the lenr-canr.org web site that shows you explaining 
>experimental results to an attendee of the ICCF-10 Conference.
>
>See: http://lenr-canr.org/Collections/ICCF10.htm
>
>I sincerely hope the fruits of your CF analysis will eventually bare fruit 
>if they haven't already, for all of our sake.
>
>It seems to me that you might increase your chances of realizing the 
>fruits of your labor if more time was spent explaining and clarifying the 
>conclusions of your experiments as compared to focusing on a personal 
>assumption that Mr. Storms doesn't always know what he is talking about. 
>Granted, it's only my personal opinion but I don't think it reflects well 
>on you.
>
>Regards,
>Steven Vincent Johnson
>www.OrionWorks.com


Steven:

   Please do not belittle yourself, nor Dr. Storms.

   There is a third, more logical, interpretation.
  We have spent years reporting our results of quality control, materials 
fabrication,
engineering and nuclear theory, device development, and progressive cold 
fusion results,
resulting in more than 40 papers.
In that prism, accuracy is very important to me (although it often is NOT 
found on the 'net).

In this case, the point was that D2O is NOT poisonous (as would be cyanide 
or carbon monoxide).
The correction to this myth is exactly what was posted -- and was clearly 
demonstrated by reference.

You have purported to know what I think, but do not. Instead, such 
projections inform about you.


  Thank you for your other comments.  Our cold fusion efforts (much more 
than analysis) have
wrought much 'fruit' with some of the highest long-term results to date to 
my knowledge,
and have resulted in the development of technology and Q/A systems which 
are immediately applicable
to others in the field.
As such, if you want scientific explanations and conclusions of our 
experiments you might try the papers,
and in the meantime, the JET Thermal Products website also has a lot of 
information from previous years.

    Hope that clarifies.  Best wishes.

        Dr. Mitchell Swartz



  "Opportunities are a tricky crop, with tiny flowers that are difficult to
    see and even more difficult to harvest"   -  anon (after Herbert)

========================================================

   Cold Fusion Times    http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html
     The journal of the scientific aspects of loading isotopic fuels into 
materials ISSN# 1072-2874

   JET Thermal Products   http://world.std.com/~mica/jet.html
      Working for Safe and More Efficient Heat Products to Serve You





From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 14 14:06:45 2005
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Google Alerts tells me that someone named Joe Barker has been promoting 
cold fusion power -- presumably our CF, not the programming language, and 
that he made statements about it at the recent SIMposium 2005 program in 
Boston. I have never heard of Barker, or the SIMposium (Boston I know 
about), but anyway, I looked him up and sent him a friendly message.

See:

http://searchcio.techtarget.com/originalContent/0,289142,sid19_gci1124647,00.html

http://www.joelbarker.com/index.php

- Jed


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Subject: Re: CF Suppression?
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Mitchell Swartz wrote:

>  We have spent years reporting our results of quality control, materials 
> fabrication, engineering and nuclear theory, device development, and 
> progressive cold fusion  results, resulting in more than 40 papers.

I suggest you put make some of these papers freely available on-line, or if 
they are on-line already, you tell us the URLs. If you will not do this, 
you are effectively suppressing yourself.

I am a big fan of distributing information via the Internet.

- Jed


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Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 17:41:52 -0500
From: Harry Veeder <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: Lifter experiment
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OrionWorks wrote:

>> From: Harry Veeder
>> 
>> I was wondering if anyone has heard about this lifter experiment
>> which purports to show that there is no new physics associated
>> with lifters.
>> 
>> http://www.blazelabs.com/l-vacuum.asp
>> 
>> If so, do you feel the experiment is definitive?
>> 
>> 
>> Harry
> 
> It's doing a pretty good job of convincing me.
> 
> I seem to recall some dissention on this matter, however.
> 
> My recollection is that someone on Vortex had made the claim that lifter
> thrust has been recorded in a vacuum, but I can't remember who made that claim
> or in what context.
> 

Were tests with "tubular lifters" discussed?

from
http://jnaudin.free.fr/lifters/tubular/index.htm
Naudin says: 

"Congratulations to Greg Vizza and to Francis Daran, there experiment proves
definitely that the main Lifter thrust is the result of an upward force of
the aluminum armature towards the virtual armature generated by the wires."

also see
http://www.skidmore.edu/academics/music/aholland/ScienceExperiments.html

Harry


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d20? 3rd ed or 3.5?

On 9/14/05, Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com> wrote:=20
>=20
> This discussion about buying D2O has gotten off the track. It is quite
> clear to me D2O has become more difficult to purchase, and so have many
> other chemicals. Ed Storms has told us that although he can get D2O, he=
=20
> has
> to go through bureaucratic rigmarole. The government is cracking down on
> all of these things in response to 9/11. This has nothing remotely to do
> with cold fusion.
>=20
> 9/11 has been used as an excuse for all kinds of strange policies. For
> example, I own property that was covered by fully-paid-up liability
> insurance for 45 years, without a claim. A year after 9/11, the coverage
> was abruptly canceled. No insurance company will touch it. Apparently
> coverage was canceled for thousands of other property owners. I asked
> everyone up to state insurance commissioner why. They say, "It is due to
> increased security concerns generated by 9/11."
>=20
> As Ed says, liability is the other reason the chemical companies are
> tightening up. They do not want to be sued by some idiot who drinks heavy
> water.
>=20
> By the way, heavy water in small amounts is not toxic, but it often has
> unhealthy glop in it, including tritium, heavy metals, and bacteria=20
> adapted
> to living in heavy water that likes to eat the heavy metals. It should be
> purified before use in a CF experiment.
>=20
> - Jed
>=20
>=20
>=20


--=20
"Monsieur l'abb=E9, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to ma=
ke=20
it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire

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d20?&nbsp; 3rd ed or 3.5?<br><br>
<div><span class=3D"gmail_quote">On 9/14/05, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">=
Jed Rothwell</b> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:JedRothwell mindspring.com">JedRothw=
ell mindspring.com</a>&gt; wrote:</span>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">This discussion about buying D2O=
 has gotten off the track. It is quite<br>clear to me D2O has become more d=
ifficult to purchase, and so have many
<br>other chemicals. Ed Storms has told us that although he can get D2O, he=
 has<br>to go through bureaucratic rigmarole. The government is cracking do=
wn on<br>all of these things in response to 9/11. This has nothing remotely=
 to do
<br>with cold fusion.<br><br>9/11 has been used as an excuse for all kinds =
of strange policies. For<br>example, I own property that was covered by ful=
ly-paid-up liability<br>insurance for 45 years, without a claim. A year aft=
er 9/11, the coverage
<br>was abruptly canceled. No insurance company will touch it. Apparently<b=
r>coverage was canceled for thousands of other property owners. I asked<br>=
everyone up to state insurance commissioner why. They say, &quot;It is due =
to
<br>increased security concerns generated by 9/11.&quot;<br><br>As Ed says,=
 liability is the other reason the chemical companies are<br>tightening up.=
 They do not want to be sued by some idiot who drinks heavy<br>water.<br>
<br>By the way, heavy water in small amounts is not toxic, but it often has=
<br>unhealthy glop in it, including tritium, heavy metals, and bacteria ada=
pted<br>to living in heavy water that likes to eat the heavy metals. It sho=
uld be
<br>purified before use in a CF experiment.<br><br>- Jed<br><br><br></block=
quote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br>&quot;Monsieur l'abb=E9, I det=
est what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to=
 continue to write&quot;&nbsp;&nbsp;Voltaire=20

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 14 17:30:27 2005
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Oh really?
I smell something.

Please let me know if/what you get back.

s

At 02:05 PM 9/14/2005, you wrote:
>Google Alerts tells me that someone named Joe Barker has been promoting 
>cold fusion power -- presumably our CF, not the programming language, and 
>that he made statements about it at the recent SIMposium 2005 program in 
>Boston. I have never heard of Barker, or the SIMposium (Boston I know 
>about), but anyway, I looked him up and sent him a friendly message.
>
>See:
>
>http://searchcio.techtarget.com/originalContent/0,289142,sid19_gci1124647,00.html
>
>http://www.joelbarker.com/index.php
>
>- Jed
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 14 18:07:04 2005
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BlankJoel Barker is a motivational speaker that has both the ability to =
capture the attention of an audience and provoke a response to the =
subliminal dynamic nudge that lurks within every creative person.

His mention of CF should be no surprise. The promise held forth by the =
magnitude of the uses for cold forms of new energy has a magnetic =
quality transcending what is possible.

There is no Camelot.. but if there were???....  mention the concept to a =
fertile mind and who can stop a dream.

Joel Barker has no difficulty accepting cold fusion because he is a " =
futurist" and " visionary". A "dream maker".
One should recognize a kindred spirit .

Richard
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<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
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href=3D"file://E:\Program Files\Common Files\Microsoft =
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<DIV>Joel Barker is a motivational speaker that has both the ability to =
capture=20
the attention of an audience and provoke a response to the subliminal =
dynamic=20
nudge that lurks within&nbsp;every creative person.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>His mention of CF should be no surprise. The promise held forth by =
the=20
magnitude of the uses for cold forms of new energy has a magnetic =
quality=20
transcending&nbsp;what is possible.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>There is no Camelot.. but if there were???....&nbsp; mention the =
concept to=20
a fertile mind and who can stop a dream.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Joel Barker has no difficulty accepting cold fusion because he is a =
"=20
futurist" and " visionary".&nbsp;A "dream maker".</DIV>
<DIV>One should recognize a kindred spirit .</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Richard</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Jed wrote:

> This discussion about buying D2O has gotten off the track. It is quite
> clear to me D2O has become more difficult to purchase, and so have many
> other chemicals. Ed Storms has told us that although he can get D2O, he has
> to go through bureaucratic rigmarole. The government is cracking down on
> all of these things in response to 9/11. This has nothing remotely to do
> with cold fusion.

> 9/11 has been used as an excuse for all kinds of strange policies. For
> example, I own property that was covered by fully-paid-up liability
> insurance for 45 years, without a claim. A year after 9/11, the coverage
> was abruptly canceled. No insurance company will touch it. Apparently
> coverage was canceled for thousands of other property owners. I asked
> everyone up to state insurance commissioner why. They say, "It is due to
> increased security concerns generated by 9/11."

> As Ed says, liability is the other reason the chemical companies are
> tightening up. They do not want to be sued by some idiot who drinks heavy
> water.

> By the way, heavy water in small amounts is not toxic, but it often has
> unhealthy glop in it, including tritium, heavy metals, and bacteria adapted
> to living in heavy water that likes to eat the heavy metals. It should be
purified before use in a CF experiment.

> - Jed

All too true.  What was intended as good-natured ribbing on my part seems
to have taken an unnecessarily nasty turn.  My apologies to Ed and all.

M.

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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell mindspring.com>
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RC Macaulay writes:

> Joel Barker has no difficulty accepting cold fusion because he is a " futurist" and " visionary". A "dream maker".
> One should recognize a kindred spirit .

Well, I hope he really is a futurist and not a blowhard. As I see it, if he responds, that makes him a kindred spirit, but if he does not, he is no futurist in my book. At this point, LENR-CANR is the gold standard for CF information. Anyone seriously interested in the subject will read it. Not because of me, but because hundreds of authors have contributed papers. We have over 400 papers on file. It is like having a shelf full of conference proceedings available in an instant anywhere on earth. (The Internet is astounding, isn't it? We are the last generation to appreciate it, and not take it for granted.) Perhaps if we had had that back in 1990, the debate would not have gone astray.

I am now so confident CF is real, I regard it as a litmus test. How can you tell a real scientist from a dodo with a PhD? Show him the experimental data. Show him a couple dozen good papers. If he agrees CF is real he is a sheep and if he doesn't he's a goat.

- Jed




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Fred, I'm a little confused by this information. Does this
process only work with starch, or will cellulose do as well?

M.



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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 14 19:10:38 2005
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Subject: Re: Joel Barker
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 22:09:46 -0400
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jed Rothwell" <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
To: <vortex-L eskimo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 5:05 PM
Subject: Joel Barker


> Google Alerts tells me that someone named Joe Barker has been promoting 
> cold fusion power -- presumably our CF, not the programming language, and 
> that he made statements about it at the recent SIMposium 2005 program in 
> Boston. I have never heard of Barker, or the SIMposium (Boston I know 
> about), but anyway, I looked him up and sent him a friendly message.

It looks like Joe Barker is just using cold fusion (the energy technology) 
in the abstract during his presentation.  He holds it out there as an 
example of a technology that could be a cure-all for future problems.  He's 
certainly not promoting cold fusion or talking about the science behind it. 
It is interesting that he uses cold fusion as an example of a technology 
that could have a major impact on society to solve problems.  A good 
indication of how people perceive cold fusion.  It is funny how cold fusion 
pops up in the oddest places.  It's definitely part of our culture in an 
obscure way. 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 14 20:06:44 2005
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From: Steven Krivit <steven newenergytimes.com>
Subject: Re: Joel Barker
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Now I looked at the site which gives me a different impression. I had 
thought you meant he was promoting it commercially, or at least promoting 
it. I retract my earlier comment. I think he's just a futurist, like the 
rest of us, open to new ideas, and helping us get to tomorrow. Or helping 
us see to it that there is a tomorrow.

s

At 02:05 PM 9/14/2005, you wrote:
>Google Alerts tells me that someone named Joe Barker has been promoting 
>cold fusion power -- presumably our CF, not the programming language, and 
>that he made statements about it at the recent SIMposium 2005 program in 
>Boston. I have never heard of Barker, or the SIMposium (Boston I know 
>about), but anyway, I looked him up and sent him a friendly message.
>
>See:
>
>http://searchcio.techtarget.com/originalContent/0,289142,sid19_gci1124647,00.html
>
>http://www.joelbarker.com/index.php
>
>- Jed
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 14 20:32:26 2005
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Subject: Any sketch artists among us?
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--=====================_195750828==.ALT
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Hey folks,

Are any of you Vorts stealth sketch artists? Or do you know anybody who is?

I'm going to be talking about CF/CMNS energy density in an upcoming 
conference, among other things. One of the best, albeit anecdotal, 
experiences that we have to relay this is Mizuno's runaway boil-off. 
Naturally, I have other well-documented and published reports of energy 
density to supplement this anecdote. If you're not familiar with the story, 
its in the preface to Mizuno's book, translated by Jed, and I think the 
preface may also be on lenr-canr.

I would like to be able to put up a slide that shows a single-frame comic 
strip-type drawing that conveys the event, perhaps with a slightly artistic 
enhancement, of a scientist pouring a bucket of water into an experiment, 
and one or two people rushing to him, bringing more buckets of water, like 
a fire brigade.

If this sounds like a fun volunteer opportunity for anybody, please send me 
a sample of prior work and we'll go from there.

Many thanks!


Steven B. Krivit
Editor, New Energy Times
Executive Director, New Energy Institute Inc.
<http://www.newenergytimes.com/>NEW<http://www.newenergytimes.com/> ENERGY 
TIMES
Your best source for cold fusion news and information.

11664 National Blvd. Suite 142
Los Angeles, California, USA 90064
<http://www.newenergytimes.com/>www.newenergytimes.com
Cell phone: (310) 721-5919
Office Phone: (310) 470-8189
Fax: (432) 577-3630

--=====================_195750828==.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
<body>
Hey folks,<br><br>
Are any of you Vorts stealth sketch artists? Or do you know anybody who
is?<br><br>
I'm going to be talking about CF/CMNS energy density in an upcoming
conference, among other things. One of the best, albeit anecdotal,
experiences that we have to relay this is Mizuno's runaway boil-off.
Naturally, I have other well-documented and published reports of energy
density to supplement this anecdote. If you're not familiar with the
story, its in the preface to Mizuno's book, translated by Jed, and I
think the preface may also be on lenr-canr.<br><br>
I would like to be able to put up a slide that shows a single-frame comic
strip-type drawing that conveys the event, perhaps with a slightly
artistic enhancement, of a scientist pouring a bucket of water into an
experiment, and one or two people rushing to him, bringing more buckets
of water, like a fire brigade.<br><br>
If this sounds like a fun volunteer opportunity for anybody, please send
me a sample of prior work and we'll go from there.<br><br>
Many thanks!<br><br>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
Steven B. Krivit<br>
Editor, New Energy Times<br>
Executive Director, New Energy Institute Inc.<br>
<font size=4><b><i><a href="http://www.newenergytimes.com/">NEW</a>
<a href="http://www.newenergytimes.com/"> ENERGY
TIMES</a></i></b></font><font size=5> <br>
</font><b><i>Your best source for cold fusion news and information.
<br><br>
</i></b>11664 National Blvd. Suite 142<br>
Los Angeles, California, USA 90064<br>
<a href="http://www.newenergytimes.com/">www.newenergytimes.com</a><br>
Cell phone: (310) 721-5919<br>
Office Phone: (310) 470-8189<br>
Fax: (432) 577-3630<br>
</body>
</html>

--=====================_195750828==.ALT--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 14 22:47:32 2005
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Subject: Fresnel Dream
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A number of recent posts on this list have concerned various schemes
to use solar concentrators.  This is something I've been fascinated with
and have played around with all my life.

I own a company that manufactures, among other things, fresnel lens
arrays.  Unfortunately, these have been used exclusively for rather 
trivial decorative purposes.  Their main form has been arrays of metallized
negative fresnels.  This is quite attractive and results in a rather
convincing and compelling 3D illusion of a shiny metal ball floating
behind the surface of the substrate.  You can seen the results of my work
on the cover of the latest Guiness Book of World Records.  There is a
picture of this at:

http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/

The picture, of course, doesn't show the 3D aspect very well. (End of
self-promoting commercial)

The thing is, it's actually much easier to make a single large fresnel than
to make these decorative arrays.  What I have in mind is to make not a
large single fresnel lens, but a quarter of one.  The quarter sections could
then be assembled on a light-weight frame into a relatively large solar
concentrator.  The process I use has a number of advantages over those
previously implemented

These lenses are made in continuous rolls, rather than pressed as 
individual parts.  Because of a number of other innovations I am able
to manufacture and sell this stuff for less than a dollar per square meter.
This is roughly 1% of the cost of conventionally manufactured fresnels.
Further, these are made on a high tensile strength polyester substrate,
allowing thin pieces to be stretched on a frame.  The stuff is so cheap
it might be less expensive to replace it than to clean it.

My largest machine runs film 65 inches wide, meaning four sections
assembled together would give you a square 3.3 meters on a side.  So
you have 10.9 square meters of concentrator area capable of focusing
a spot about 3cm at f1.  Direct measurement of the type of fresnel I make
gives about 80% of the incident sunlight delivered to the focus.  Now
surely someone could figure out what to do with more than 8kW of
concentrated heat in a 3cm spot.

The frame structure I have in mind would be a pyramid with cross bars
traversing  the base to support the quarter sections and the focus would
be at the apex.  Clearly, this type of frame could be made light-weight and
relatively inexpensive.  Nevertheless, the fresnel lens would be the least
expensive part of the whole thing. My production capacity is really quite
large and can be expanded quickly.

Unlike reflective concentrators, fresnel lenses can undergo considerable
flexing and disortion without seriously affecting their performance.

What I would like to know, since there is such a variety of knowledgable
people on this list, what would be the best use of 8kW of concentrated
solar energy?  Thermoelectric?  Stirling? Zinc reduction? What?  I really
don't know what do with this, if anything.

M.

_______________________________________________
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 15 00:35:17 2005
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At 05:05 pm 14/09/2005 -0400, you wrote:
>Google Alerts tells me that someone named Joe Barker has been promoting 
>cold fusion power -- presumably our CF, not the programming language, and 
>that he made statements about it at the recent SIMposium 2005 program in 
>Boston. I have never heard of Barker, or the SIMposium (Boston I know 
>about), but anyway, I looked him up and sent him a friendly message.
>
>See:
>
>http://searchcio.techtarget.com/originalContent/0,289142,sid19_gci1124647,00.html
>
>http://www.joelbarker.com/index.php
>
>- Jed


Well, he's certainly got the right name for the job.   8^)

   ==========================================================
   Barker

   2. An employee who stands before the entrance to a show, 
      as at a carnival, and solicits customers with a loud 
      sales spiel.
   ==========================================================

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Steven Krivit wrote:

> Hey folks,
>
> Are any of you Vorts stealth sketch artists? Or do you know anybody 
> who is?
>
> I'm going to be talking about CF/CMNS energy density in an upcoming 
> conference, among other things. One of the best, albeit anecdotal, 
> experiences that we have to relay this is Mizuno's runaway boil-off. 
> Naturally, I have other well-documented and published reports of 
> energy density to supplement this anecdote. If you're not familiar 
> with the story, its in the preface to Mizuno's book, translated by 
> Jed, and I think the preface may also be on lenr-canr.
>
> I would like to be able to put up a slide that shows a single-frame 
> comic strip-type drawing that conveys the event, perhaps with a 
> slightly artistic enhancement, of a scientist pouring a bucket of 
> water into an experiment, and one or two people rushing to him, 
> bringing more buckets of water, like a fire brigade.
>
> If this sounds like a fun volunteer opportunity for anybody, please 
> send me a sample of prior work and we'll go from there.
>
> Many thanks!
>
> Steven B. Krivit
> Editor, New Energy Times
> Executive Director, New Energy Institute Inc.
> */NEW <http://www.newenergytimes.com/> ENERGY TIMES 
> <http://www.newenergytimes.com/>/*
> */Your best source for cold fusion news and information.
>
> /*11664 National Blvd. Suite 142
> Los Angeles, California, USA 90064
> www.newenergytimes.com <http://www.newenergytimes.com/>
> Cell phone: (310) 721-5919
> Office Phone: (310) 470-8189
> Fax: (432) 577-3630
>
Steven how about CGI I have a Second Life account and can do some simple 
CGI there, take photos and then we could form them into a cartoon.

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From: Wesley Bruce <wesleybruce iinet.net.au>
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Subject: Re: Due Diligence on CF
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Harry Veeder wrote:

>Jed Rothwell wrote:
>
>  
>
>>No one here has mentioned a conspiracy. Frankly, I am sick of being accused
>>of conspiracy theories. Suppression and conspiracy are two separate and
>>unrelated concepts. A conspiracy is organized, covert, and conducted by a
>>small number of people. The suppression of cold fusion is unorganized; it
>>could not be more overt; and it is conducted by thousands of people.
>>
>>    
>>
>
>Similar to discrimination based on race or class.
>
>Harry
>
>  
>
More closely resembling the treatment that creationists get in science. 
I have creationist friends, PhD's, that have done a large (170+) sample 
single blind test on radiometric dating and it Failed completely. Yet 
the main stream kept it out of the presses. If isotpe dating was a drug 
it would be declared to have no scientific validiity. The dynamics of 
suppression is such that no discovery can be believed regardless of the 
data. The rules of science died decades before CF but the world failed 
to notice. Eveidence is nolonger allowed. We need a reactor!

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Subject: Re: desert ice
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Bob Fickle wrote:

> For cooling, you'd want a well-insulated "flat plate" solar 
> collector.  This would provide a large surface for radiating heat into 
> the sky at a wide range of angles.  You wouldn't want a low-E surface 
> on the panel, because this prevents radiative cooling.  My first 
> experiment would be a flat-black metal plate, foam insulation behind 
> and double-glazed glass in front.
>
> Alex Caliostro wrote:
>
>> would this system also work at night based on mr beene's post
>>
>> http://www.energylan.sandia.gov/sunlab/PDFs/solar_dish.pdf
>>
>> -alex
>>
>> _________________________________________________________________
>> Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's 
>> FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
>>
>>
>
Think about a design that can be covered by mylar or foam by day with a 
1/2 inch gap between the surface and the insulation and extend the 
shading down a few inches below the edge of the plate so warm air does 
not circulate up under the lower edge of the top insulation by day, It 
should improve the effect. Think also about making it survive high winds.

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Subject: Re: Joel Barker
References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050914170205.04de1240 pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050914172259.029bca70@mail.newenergytimes.com>
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Steven Krivit wrote:

> Oh really?
> I smell something.
>
> Please let me know if/what you get back.
>
> s
>
> At 02:05 PM 9/14/2005, you wrote:
>
>> Google Alerts tells me that someone named Joe Barker has been 
>> promoting cold fusion power -- presumably our CF, not the programming 
>> language, and that he made statements about it at the recent 
>> SIMposium 2005 program in Boston. I have never heard of Barker, or 
>> the SIMposium (Boston I know about), but anyway, I looked him up and 
>> sent him a friendly message.
>>
>> See:
>>
>> http://searchcio.techtarget.com/originalContent/0,289142,sid19_gci1124647,00.html 
>>
>>
>> http://www.joelbarker.com/index.php
>>
>> - Jed
>>
>>
>
I like the way this bloke thinks and have half the books he recommends 
on my book shelf But I can't find any metion of Cold fusion outside the 
first link.

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John Steck wrote:

>Try this: http://www.readplease.com/
>
>-john
>
>  
>

He he that came standard on my computer.

>  
>

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From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk
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I'll guess this will go on and on and on and on and on and go on and on and
on and on and on and go on and on and on and on and on and go on and on and
on and on and on and go on and on and on and on and on and go on and on and
on and on and on and go on and on and on and on and on and go on and on and
on and on and on and go on and on and on and on and on and go on and on and
on and on and on and go on and on and on and on and on and go on and on and
on and on and on and go on and on and on and on and on and go on and on and
on and on and on and go on and on and on and on and on and go on and on and
on and on and on and go on and on and on and on and on and go on and on and
on and on and on and go on and on and on and on and on and go on and on and
on and on and on and go on and on and on and on and on and go on and on and
on and on and on and go on and on and on and on and on and go on and on and
on and on and on and go on and on and on and on and on and go on and on and
on and on and on and go on and on and on and on and on and go on and on and
on and on and on and go on and on and on and on and on and go on and on and
on and on and on and go on and on and on and on and on and go on and on and
on and on and on and go on and on and on and on and on and go on and on and
on and on and on and go on and on and on and on and on and go on and on and
on and on and on and go on and on and on and on and on and go on and on and
on and on and on and go on and on and on and on and on and go on and on and
on and on and on and go on and on and on and on and on and go on and on and
on and on and on and go on and on and on and on and on and go on and on and
on and on and on and go on and on and on and on and on and go on and on and
on and on and on and go on and on and on and on and on and go on and on and
on and on and on and go on and on and on and on and on and go on and on and
on and on and on and go on and on and on and on and on and go on and on and
on and on and on and

-----Original Message-----
From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On
Behalf Of Jed Rothwell
Sent: 14 September 2005 20:16
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: RE: Due Diligence on CF

R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk wrote:

>  Of course there are a million and one conspiracies against you when
>you are having a bad time!

YOU are the only one claiming there is a conspiracy! I say there is no 
conspiracy, and yet you persist in accusing me of conspiracy mongering. 
This is highly irrational.

This is not surprising, You are not the first to accuse me of doing things 
I have not done, and saying things I have not said. This is a logical 
fallacy called a straw man argument. Yours is particularly egregious 
example because I am saying just the opposite of what you accuse me of
saying.


>May be you are in a rut and pissed off.

The nation is in a rut. The scientific establishment is in a rut. I am 
standing outside the rut, looking down a clear road ahead, and urging 
people to join me.


>Negativity is not going to help you is it?

On the contrary, negativity may well help. After all else failed, it worked 
splendidly in the 1960s to promote integration and progress in race 
relations. My mother was working in the Bureau of Commerce back then, and 
she had many black colleagues. These were professionals -- statisticians, 
programmers and social science researchers. Many were first generation 
college graduates. As you would expect, they were thoroughly bourgeois in 
attitude, dress, manners, social mores and so on. No one is more firmly 
middle-class and respectable than a person who has escaped from poverty. In 
the 1960s Washington and the federal government was still quite segregated, 
and this group was still fighting for promotion to management and equal 
treatment. They were using oh-so-respectable techniques of reasoned 
negotiation and quiet diplomacy: no demonstrations, no threat of lawsuits, 
nothing that might be construed as "agitation." And as you would expect, 
they were getting nowhere. (They have been doing this sort of thing since 
1865 without success.) Upper management would patronize them, pat them on 
the head, praise them for being such goody-goody upstanding people, and 
then ignore them. Finally around 1966 they took a lesson from black 
militants, and changed their style. They grew Afros, they wore dashikis, 
they started lecturing In Your Face about black power. They threatened to 
hold a demonstration in the cafeteria! Most important, they scared the hell 
out of the management all the way up the federal bureaucracy. Within months 
they achieved more progress than they had in the previous 20 years, and the 
change was permanent.

The thing is, this was an act. It was a political performance. These were 
the same middle-class, middle-aged, staid people they had always been. 
Nobody listened to them until they threatened to break the rules and make a 
stink.

Based on this incident, I have long recommended that CF researchers act up, 
make trouble, and maybe chain themselves to the White House fence. Anything 
to attract attention. Playing by the rules of peer review has not worked, 
and I doubt it ever will.

- Jed

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Nuts Oh hazelnuts! Oooh! Cadburys make 'em and they cover 'em in chocolate!

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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michael Foster"

> what would be the best use of 8kW of concentrated
> solar energy?


Why not approach Sandia with the prospect of substituting your 
Fesnel array for the parabolic mirror array - in order to see 
which is more cost effective for powering the Stirling ? 

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Subject: Fresnel Dream


Michael Foster's post also brings up another possibility for a 
combined Solar-Stirling system - adding synergy - which concept is 
sounding better the more I think about it. Maybe after some Java, 
the bright idea will defocus, however.

As long ago as 1963, the predecessor to this concept was being 
investigated.
www.solar1.mech.unsw.edu.au/glm/papers/CLFR-Geelong99V6.PDF

[side note] They were talking about the "oil shock" back then - 40 
years ago - proving once again the doubly-apt aphorism that there 
is "nothing new under the sun"....

To paraphrase: There has been a long history of development of 
linear solar thermal power systems. The linear system is simpler, 
more adaptable to the Fresnel and can possibly be used in 
conjunction with the Sandia Solar Sterling (SSS) as will be 
suggested, after this brief history.

The first parabolic trough collector was demonstrated in the late 
1860's in France ! however, it was not until 1913 that useful 
mechanical power was produced from solar energy in a 41 kW pumping 
system installed in Egypt by Shuman. This system consisted of five 
north/south axis parabolic trough concentrators with an aperture 
width of 4 m and an aperture area of 1255 m2.
Shuman's system worked successfully for a number of years.

Further development of solar powered engines did not occur for 
another 50 years due to the availability of cheap oil from the 
1920's. The most successful solar thermal development has been the 
linear SEGS plant installed by LUZ International Inc (Kearney et 
al. 1985, Jaffe et al. 1987). These plants use single-axis 
parabolic trough collectors that track the sun with a north/south 
axis of rotation. The concentration ratio was 25:1 and the 
absorber was a vacuum insulated flow tube that carried heat 
transfer oil. This technology is now being developed by Pilkington 
(Pilkington 1996), and work is proceeding on direct steam 
generation in the solar array in order to reduce system costs.

OK now forget this part work as being no more than pre-history. 
There is much more in the offing! Of course adding a Fresnel onto 
the trough aperture is a "natural" progression, but here is the 
added possibility of synergy. There is a natural fit here with the 
trough and the SSS

First, in the trough you circulate a molten salt as your working 
fluid rather than water  Why? OK here is where it gets a little 
complicated. Basically the idea is that at one site, the operator 
would have an array of SSS for daytime use. They would be water 
cooled rather than air cooled. Also at the site is a larger array 
of Fresnel troughs. They are of the less-expensive linear troughs 
design covered with Fresnels. They would be used both day and 
night !!

During day, the troughs would be used to heat a molten salt which 
is stored in insulated cisterns underground. At night the troughs 
would be used to cool stored water, also held in other  nearby 
cisterns -  which had been used to cool the SSS arrays during the 
previous day's run. This hot water has been slightly cooled 
already by a 10 hour stay underground (earth heat-sink) and at 
night is cooled in the troughs through a reverse blackbody 
process, given a lower working temperature and added Carnot 
efficiency.

At night the SSS engine - the Stirling engine-generators which are 
the most expensive part of the total system by far -- perhaps 75% 
of the total cost - would normally sit idle without the present 
synergism. The new plan is to use them (albeit at reduced 
capacity) by pumping into the "hot" end, the molten salt which was 
heated the previous day in the solar troughs. The mirrors are 
superfluous at night.

This extended usage would mean adding some amount of plumbing onto 
the SSS, but the payoff is that you effectively double your 
operating time... so that even if the output is reduced during 
night use, it is basically using the most expensive component - 
the Stirling engines for free.

The Fresnel troughs are an inexpensive way to heat a storable 
medium (molten salt) so that the site operator can get nearly 24 
hour use from the SSS which would normally be limited to half of 
that. There is another benefit in that morning startup would be 
much more rapid and without metal-stress - since the SSS has been 
used at night with the molten salt.

This is a hasty compilation of thoughts and may not be clear, but 
it seemingly deserves to be tossed around further. Maybe there is 
"something new under the sun" ?

Jones


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 15 07:23:39 2005
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From: "Alex Caliostro" <caliostro1795 hotmail.com>
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my friend is a CE who claims most oil is not from dead dinosaurs

he says this paper

http://gasresources.net/AlkaneGenesis.htm

proves it - here is a quote from the abstract

<The high-pressure genesis of petroleum hydrocarbons has been demonstrated 
using only the solid reagents solid iron oxide, FeO, and marble, CaCO3, 
99.9% pure, wet with triple-distilled water.>

my question is shouldn't you be able to test the oil directly to prove its 
origin with carbon 14

-alex

_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! 
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 15 07:26:03 2005
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Fresnel Dream
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Michael Foster wrote:

>These lenses are made in continuous rolls, rather than pressed as
>individual parts.  Because of a number of other innovations I am able
>to manufacture and sell this stuff for less than a dollar per square meter.
>This is roughly 1% of the cost of conventionally manufactured fresnels.

That's fantastic! VERY impressive.


>What I would like to know, since there is such a variety of knowledgable
>people on this list, what would be the best use of 8kW of concentrated
>solar energy?  Thermoelectric?  Stirling? Zinc reduction? What?  I really
>don't know what do with this, if anything.

I wouldn't know, but I urge you to try to get in touch with solar energy 
experts and enthusiasts. Something like this could tip the balance, 
shifting some of these systems from "interesting" to "cost effective."

Years ago in a discussion of PVs, Ed Storms remark that much of this 
research is misguided, in that they are trying to increase the conversion 
efficiency of the devices, but they should be trying to lower the cost per 
watt of capacity. Efficiency does not matter much because so much open 
collection space is available, on building roofs, in deserts, and so on. A 
cheap Fresnel lens collector is functionally equivalent to a cheap PV.

James Beene mentioned the heartbreaking history of the Luz solar electric 
power plants in California. Even after Luz filed for bankruptcy the power 
company continued to use the equipment. They would not throw away a 350 MWe 
generator! I wonder if it is still in operation.

- Jed


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Current and Germane info:

http://www.windsofchange.net/archives/007439.php

"Southern California Edison has agreed to purchase 20 years' worth of electricity from a new 4,500 acre Stirling Engine-powered solar farm in Victorville, California. The farm will be designed for 500 MW capacity and could be expanded to 850 MW, making it the largest solar power facility in the world and giving it more capacity than the combined total of all other US solar projects. More info and background on Stirlings over on the Energy Blog."

Frederick
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<HTML style="FONT-SIZE: x-small; FONT-FAMILY: MS Sans Serif"><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=windows-1251">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<P>
<DIV>Current and Germane info:</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://www.windsofchange.net/archives/007439.php">http://www.windsofchange.net/archives/007439.php</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>"Southern California Edison has agreed to purchase 20 years' worth of electricity from <A href="http://www.worldchanging.com/archives/003285.html"><FONT color=#0000bb>a new 4,500 acre Stirling Engine-powered solar farm</FONT></A> in Victorville, California. The farm will be designed for 500 MW capacity and could be expanded to 850 <SPAN class=caps>MW, </SPAN>making it the largest solar power facility in the world and giving it more capacity than the combined total of all other US solar projects. More info and background on Stirlings over on <A href="http://thefraserdomain.typepad.com/energy/2005/08/about_dishengin.html"><FONT color=#0000bb>the Energy Blog</FONT></A>."</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Frederick</DIV>
<P></P></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8--


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From: OrionWorks <orionworks charter.net>
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> From: Alex Caliostro 

> my friend is a CE who claims most oil is not from dead dinosaurs
> 
> he says this paper
> 
> http://gasresources.net/AlkaneGenesis.htm
> 
> proves it - here is a quote from the abstract
> 
> <The high-pressure genesis of petroleum hydrocarbons has been 
> demonstrated using only the solid reagents solid iron oxide,
> FeO, and marble, CaCO3, 99.9% pure, wet with triple-distilled
> water.>
> 
> my question is shouldn't you be able to test the oil directly 
> to prove its origin with carbon 14
> 
> -alex
> 

It's my understanding Carbon 14 has a short half-life, at least in the geological sense - 5,730 years. Carbon 14 can't be used effectively to date anything older than around 40 - 50 thousand years. For an explanation of Carbon-14 dating see:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2002/carbon_dating.asp

Is it the paper's contention that petroleum could created in less than 40 - 50 thousands years using the above chemical process?

There are other problems that might hinder the use of C14 as well, such as contamination.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

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Wesley Bruce wrote:

>More closely resembling the treatment that creationists get in science. I 
>have creationist friends, PhD's, that have done a large (170+) sample 
>single blind test on radiometric dating and it Failed completely.

I know nothing about these instruments, but that sounds highly unlikely to 
me. It reminds me of assertions that hundreds of cold-fusion scientists 
have all made gross errors in calorimetry. I do not think that 170 
professionals using well-understood conventional instruments could all make 
giant mistakes. Large groups of scientists may be wrong about theory, and 
they may be wrong about subjects they have not themselves researched, but 
it is very unlikely that they are wrong about how to do their daily work.

Some people assert that "lie detectors" (polygraphs) do not work. That is 
to say, the instruments are not really indicate whether people are telling 
the truth, especially when the subject is a pathological criminal or con 
man. Perhaps that is true, but no one asserts that lie detectors do not 
accurately measure blood pressure, muscle tension and other physiological 
traits. The interpretation of these traits is disputed, not the basic 
functionality of the instrument or the competence of the people using the 
instrument. No one claims that polygraph results are random, or not 
replicatable, and that different operators would derive random  results in 
blind tests on the same subject.

I am assuming that Bruce is not disputing the theory of operation of 
radiometric dating, but rather the operator's skills. Perhaps he disputes 
both. In any case, I have never heard of a case in which it turned out that 
a widely-used, modern, conventional scientific instrument did not actually 
function as claimed.

Although in general I oppose the suppression of scientific discoveries, I 
do think there are many pernicious ideas that deserve to be ignored, 
marginalized, or condemned because they are dangerous. Creationism is at 
the top of the list, along with the notion that AIDS is not caused by HIV, 
and that global warming -- if real -- would be good for us (the Greening 
Earth Society's position).

There is a fine line between disagreeing and suppressing. It is *very* 
difficult for someone in my position to assert that any idea should be 
ignored, because after all, that is what most people say about cold fusion. 
Yet I believe there are firm standards -- permanent, indisputable standards 
of truth -- and cold fusion should be taken seriously precisely because it 
meets these standards. Cold fusion's greatest strength is that the 
experiments are conventional and grounded in 19th century physics. I also 
firmly believe that creationism does not meet a single one of these 
standards; it cannot be falsified or verified; and it has no scientific 
merit. Permanent, indisputable standards cut both ways: some assertions 
fail to meet them, and we should not hesitate to say so.

I realize that many people say that about cold fusion but they have not 
studied the data, and many of them such as Taubes are not qualified discuss 
the subject. I *have* studied biology, and I have given serious 
consideration to creationist claims.

Even in the case of cold fusion, I do not oppose all forms of suppression. 
For example, I think it would be premature to include a discussion of cold 
fusion in a high school or undergraduate textbook. I do not think we should 
embark on a billion-dollar Manhattan Project to develop cold fusion energy. 
We do not know whether it can be made practical, so we should not risk that 
kind of money. And, needless to say, many of the claims made at ICCF 
conferences are weak, and many have not been replicated, so we cannot 
believe them.

- Jed


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Fresnel lenses can indeed be manufactured in large sizes and cheaply. The
tradeoff problem is that solar concentrators have to be sun trackers to some
degree, and that requires structure and mechanism of some kind, which is
expensive. Also, the collectors have to be kept clean or lose effciency.
Therefore, one solution is to increase the efficiency of the PV device so
that fewer are made, or make it so cheap it can be used as building wrap.
The former is costly, the latter inefficient. I have seen designs for afocal
solar concentrators , but they are cup-like and keeping them free of dust
and debris might be a problem.

Jones' thought of using a collector array to cool a working fluid by dumping
its heat into space on a cloudess night is clever, and does not require
focusing as the heat sink is diffuse. However, if Fresnel lenses are used,
the plastic must be quite transparent in the IR region where the radiation
will occur.

Mike Carrell



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 15 09:09:02 2005
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Subject: Lithium-ion battery electric vehicle under development
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Some remarkably fast recharge times are reported. See:

http://thefraserdomain.typepad.com/energy/2005/08/the_electric_ca.html

QUOTES:

". . . Subaru plans a car, the R1e, to be released in Japan as early as 
2009, with 125 mile range, using lithium-ion batteries, that can be 
recharged to 90% of capacity in 5 minutes.

Mitsubishi Motors has plans to release a mini-vehicle in 2008.  The car, 
called the Mieve, has a 155 mile range, a 90 mph top speed, powered by 
lithium-ion batteries, will have a recharge time of 4 hours and be priced 
under $18,300. . . ."


Based on the NHK news broadcast I saw the other day, I believe these 
development projects have been put on the front burner, and some are 
expected as early as next year. There were two models. I do not recall 
which ones . . . sorry. One could be the Subaru R1e concept car. Here is a 
picture and short description:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8995780/

- Jed


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Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 12:10:14 -0500
From: Harry Veeder <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: Fresnel Dream
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Mike Carrell wrote:

> Fresnel lenses can indeed be manufactured in large sizes and cheaply. The
> tradeoff problem is that solar concentrators have to be sun trackers to some
> degree, and that requires structure and mechanism of some kind, which is
> expensive. Also, the collectors have to be kept clean or lose effciency.
> Therefore, one solution is to increase the efficiency of the PV device so
> that fewer are made, or make it so cheap it can be used as building wrap.
> The former is costly, the latter inefficient.


This translates into more opportunities for the business of window washing.
Harry

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From: "John Steck" <johnsteck tetrahelix.com>
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Subject: Open Source Energy Project Proposal
Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 11:11:56 -0500
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Ahhhh.... I almost forgot this was a science/engineering discussion list.
8^)

Thank you very much for tossing this one in Michael.  Lets start with a
practical application and work backwards to 'how'.  I want to generate 100
kWh of electricity per day on a 12,000 sqft lot in a residential suburb of
Chicago.  Excess to be dumped into a storage system or sold back to the
grid.  

Some ideas:
1) Solar cell electrolysis to feed a fuel cell stack.  
2) Solar thermal to drive a sterling generator.  
3) Solar thermal to steam drive a bladeless turbine generator.   
4) Solar thermal to dump into a geological reservoir to drive a Sterling
generator and/or heat pump system  
5) Solar thermal to produce ethanol from biomass to drive an ICE/Sterling
generator.
6) ?

I am with Fred on this one... Looking for something to fill the immediate
need that is not prohibitive in cost or complexity, relatively safe, and
that can be ready in time to offset energy needs this winter.  CF ain't it.
Lets please stop the mindless religious, political, and conspiracy debates
and get working on something that will actually make a positive impact right
now.

Just my 2 cents.  Anyone else interested in participating in an open-source
project like this?  Happy to contribute all the resources at my disposal to
the effort.

-john

 ~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~
  John Steck
  High Impact Product Development Services
  DESIGN - ENGINEERING - MANUFACTURING - MARKETING
  ~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~

  Quality is never an accident; 
  it is always the result of high intention,
  sincere effort, intelligent direction, 
  and skillful execution.



-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Foster [mailto:michael.foster excite.com] 
Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2005 12:47 AM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Fresnel Dream



A number of recent posts on this list have concerned various schemes to use
solar concentrators.  This is something I've been fascinated with and have
played around with all my life.

I own a company that manufactures, among other things, fresnel lens arrays.
Unfortunately, these have been used exclusively for rather 
trivial decorative purposes.  Their main form has been arrays of metallized
negative fresnels.  This is quite attractive and results in a rather
convincing and compelling 3D illusion of a shiny metal ball floating behind
the surface of the substrate.  You can seen the results of my work on the
cover of the latest Guiness Book of World Records.  There is a picture of
this at:

http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/

The picture, of course, doesn't show the 3D aspect very well. (End of
self-promoting commercial)

The thing is, it's actually much easier to make a single large fresnel than
to make these decorative arrays.  What I have in mind is to make not a large
single fresnel lens, but a quarter of one.  The quarter sections could then
be assembled on a light-weight frame into a relatively large solar
concentrator.  The process I use has a number of advantages over those
previously implemented

These lenses are made in continuous rolls, rather than pressed as 
individual parts.  Because of a number of other innovations I am able to
manufacture and sell this stuff for less than a dollar per square meter.
This is roughly 1% of the cost of conventionally manufactured fresnels.
Further, these are made on a high tensile strength polyester substrate,
allowing thin pieces to be stretched on a frame.  The stuff is so cheap it
might be less expensive to replace it than to clean it.

My largest machine runs film 65 inches wide, meaning four sections assembled
together would give you a square 3.3 meters on a side.  So you have 10.9
square meters of concentrator area capable of focusing a spot about 3cm at
f1.  Direct measurement of the type of fresnel I make gives about 80% of the
incident sunlight delivered to the focus.  Now surely someone could figure
out what to do with more than 8kW of concentrated heat in a 3cm spot.

The frame structure I have in mind would be a pyramid with cross bars
traversing  the base to support the quarter sections and the focus would be
at the apex.  Clearly, this type of frame could be made light-weight and
relatively inexpensive.  Nevertheless, the fresnel lens would be the least
expensive part of the whole thing. My production capacity is really quite
large and can be expanded quickly.

Unlike reflective concentrators, fresnel lenses can undergo considerable
flexing and disortion without seriously affecting their performance.

What I would like to know, since there is such a variety of knowledgable
people on this list, what would be the best use of 8kW of concentrated solar
energy?  Thermoelectric?  Stirling? Zinc reduction? What?  I really don't
know what do with this, if anything.

M.

_______________________________________________
Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
The most personalized portal on the Web!



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 15 09:14:40 2005
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Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 11:12:32 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Fresnel Dream
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Michael Foster posted;

>
>What I would like to know, since there is such a variety of knowledgable
>people on this list, what would be the best use of 8kW of concentrated
>solar energy?  Thermoelectric?  Stirling? Zinc reduction? What?  I really
>don't know what do with this, if anything.
>
>M.

I assume that your film frensel lens would be orbitable. I heard a 
guest on C to C AM talk about an orbiting solar power station which 
would produce energy in the form of microwave radiation, which could 
then be beamed down to the earth and collected. He suggested a steam 
boiler which would turn a turbine. primitive, but it works. This is 
the same man who proposed using the aforementioned microwave beam to 
heat the water on one side of a hurricane's path causing to to track 
in that direction, out into the Atlantic. Now this, IMHO, would be 
weather control that would work.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 15 09:15:00 2005
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Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 11:12:32 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Electronic Engine Ionizer
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>Vortexians'

This is my friend's latest pet project. Makes no sense to me, but if 
it works, well I guess we'll have to figure out why.

>Here is how the Electronic Engine Ionizer Fuel Saver works: When a spark
>plug fires, the capacitor block attached to each spark plug wire picks
>up a high voltage, low amperage charge (sometimes called a "Corona
>Charge"). This charge is transferred from the firing cylinder to the
>other non-firing cylinders via the harness wire. These charges cause a
>partial breakdown in the larger hydrocarbon molecules in all the
>non-firing cylinders, resulting in increased combustion efficiency. This
>translates into better fuel mileage (economy), more horsepower, easier
>starting, less pollution (lowered emissions), smoother idle.
>-
>Top Online Shopping Malls - Automotives & Bikes
>-
>Pictures are a representation of the product and may not be the actual
>application photo for your vehicle, but will function as intended. B&G
>Electronics, LLC not responsible for typographical errors. Price subject
>to change without notice.
>-
>Copyright 2004 B&G Electronics, LLC, all rights reserved.
>
>http://store.yahoo.com/engineionizer-store/howdoesitwork.html

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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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BlankMichael,

Some time back our company worked up a series of schematics for a =
presentation on proposed solar "hot plates" that could be used in 3rd =
world countries for a " combo" cooking and distilling water.  The idea =
is actually a takeoff of a " Mr. Coffee" type electric perculator. The =
setup included a solar collector, a ceramic hotplate fixed in a salt =
eutectic bed ,a steam still ,    a non potable water tank and a potable =
water tank. The whole unit portable that unfolds from a suitcase type  =
container. Some 3rd world countries have depleted thier source of =
firewood and/ or lack potable water supplies. We were working with a =
world missions program group that forecast a demand in the millions of =
units provided the cost could be below $ 50.00 US.
The whole project got sidelined while trying to locate a source of =
inexpensive  fresnel lense materials.

"Bingo" !! up step Michael.=20

I have a full time research project going at present but if you are =
interested I can fax you the schematics and put you in touch with the =
interested parties, They operates similar to the Livingwaters charitable =
waterwell drilling  people  in Africa and remote areas on earth.

Richard


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<HTML><HEAD><TITLE id=3DridTitle>Blank</TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"><BASE=20
href=3D"file://E:\Program Files\Common Files\Microsoft =
Shared\Stationery\">
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<BODY id=3DridBody bgColor=3D#ffffff=20
background=3Dcid:001d01c5ba10$e1ca6cf0$ec027841 xptower>
<DIV>Michael,</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Some time back our company worked up a series of schematics for a=20
presentation on proposed solar "hot plates" that could be used in 3rd =
world=20
countries for a " combo" cooking and distilling water.&nbsp; The idea is =

actually a takeoff of a " Mr. Coffee" type electric perculator. The =
setup=20
included a solar collector, a ceramic hotplate fixed in a salt eutectic=20
bed&nbsp;,a steam still&nbsp;,&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;a non potable =
water tank=20
and a potable water tank. The whole unit portable that unfolds from a =
suitcase=20
type&nbsp; container. Some 3rd world countries have depleted thier =
source of=20
firewood and/ or lack potable water supplies. We were working with a =
world=20
missions program group that forecast a demand in the millions of units =
provided=20
the cost could be below $ 50.00 US.</DIV>
<DIV>The whole project got sidelined while trying to locate a source of=20
inexpensive&nbsp; fresnel lense materials.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>"Bingo" !! up step Michael. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>I have a full time research project going at present but if you are =

interested I can fax you the schematics and put you in touch with the =
interested=20
parties, They operates similar to the Livingwaters charitable waterwell=20
drilling&nbsp;&nbsp;people&nbsp;&nbsp;in Africa and remote areas on =
earth.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Richard</DIV>
<P>&nbsp;</P></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 15 09:18:48 2005
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Subject: Re: Fresnel Dream
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: Frederick Sparber

"The farm will be designed for 500 MW capacity and could be 
expanded to 850 MW, making it the largest solar power facility in 
the world and giving it more capacity than the combined total of 
all other US solar projects. More info and background on Stirlings 
over on the Energy Blog."



Fred,

Yes, we discussed this plant earlier on vortex. Very exciting.

But look at this. The average annual efficiency is 24% and the gas 
working temp is nearly 973 K.  This means that the low end 
effectvie cooling temperature (using the naive approximation) is 
over 700 K. Using chilled water cooling this could be lowered to 
450 K and therby double the efficiency - except - of course, it 
doesn't work that smoothly and there are many other losses - but 
in fact a tremendous boost could be gained by chilled water 
cooling.

That is where the fresnel troughs could come in to help the 
situation. Plus they could do double duty IF as Mike Carrell 
mentions, the tranparent Fresnel material could be tailored 
correctly. 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 15 09:37:00 2005
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A recent news article on neutron emissions from lightning, and  
deuterium in the atmosphere.  Thought some here would be interested.

http://www.sciscoop.com/story/2005/9/13/132425/338


Z

On Sep 15, 2005, at 9:16 AM, RC Macaulay wrote:

> Michael,
>
> Some time back our company worked up a series of schematics for a  
> presentation on proposed solar "hot plates" that could be used in  
> 3rd world countries for a " combo" cooking and distilling water.   
> The idea is actually a takeoff of a " Mr. Coffee" type electric  
> perculator. The setup included a solar collector, a ceramic  
> hotplate fixed in a salt eutectic bed ,a steam still ,    a non  
> potable water tank and a potable water tank. The whole unit  
> portable that unfolds from a suitcase type  container. Some 3rd  
> world countries have depleted thier source of firewood and/ or lack  
> potable water supplies. We were working with a world missions  
> program group that forecast a demand in the millions of units  
> provided the cost could be below $ 50.00 US.
> The whole project got sidelined while trying to locate a source of  
> inexpensive  fresnel lense materials.
>
> "Bingo" !! up step Michael.
>
> I have a full time research project going at present but if you are  
> interested I can fax you the schematics and put you in touch with  
> the interested parties, They operates similar to the Livingwaters  
> charitable waterwell drilling  people  in Africa and remote areas  
> on earth.
>
> Richard
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 15 10:11:25 2005
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>From: OrionWorks

>It's my understanding Carbon 14 has a short half-life, at least in the 
>geological sense - 5,730 years. Carbon 14 can't be used effectively to date 
>anything older than around 40 - 50 thousand years. For an explanation of 
>Carbon-14 dating see:
>
>http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2002/carbon_dating.asp

thank-you for the carbon 14 reference

>Is it the paper's contention that petroleum could created in less than 40 - 
>50 thousands years using the above chemical process?

my friend - who is a ChE not a civil engineer - says this paper means it is 
a continuous process

he also says this research is why russia in a net exporter of oil - not that 
they make it - that they know where to look for it

but your point on carbon 14 is well taken - you wouldn't expect to find it 
in fossil fuels nor abiotic fuels -- would there be any other distinction 
which could be measured?

-alex

_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! 
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 15 10:28:08 2005
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At 11:48 AM 9/15/2005, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>Even in the case of cold fusion, I do not oppose all forms of suppression. 
>For example, I think it would be premature to include a discussion of cold 
>fusion in a high school or undergraduate textbook. I do not think we 
>should embark on a billion-dollar Manhattan Project to develop cold fusion 
>energy. We do not know whether it can be made practical, so we should not 
>risk that kind of money. And, needless to say, many of the claims made at 
>ICCF conferences are weak, and many have not been replicated, so we cannot 
>believe them.
>
>- Jed



    Wrong.
    Cold fusion science and engineering should be taught to undergraduates.


    Wrong.
    There SHOULD be a multi-billion dollar Manhattan Project to further 
develop the most successful cold fusion technologies.


    Wrong.
    Cold fusion science and technology IS being made practical today -- and 
will augment energy resources in the future.


    Many of the claims made at ICCF conferences (and especially in the 
Fusion Technology peer-reviewed
    papers) are quite strong and many have been replicated and/or shown to 
be reproducible - and developed into solid engineering principles.


    Perhaps some fanatics, because of a lack of substantial grounding in 
physics and engineering or because of their own censorship,
     appear unable to separate with reproducible precision the good from 
the bad efforts.

     Final comment: Suppression of science is wrong - from Galileo to today.


          Dr. Mitchell Swartz


                  "Fanaticism is always a sign of repressed doubts" - Iblis 
Ginjo


========================================================

   Cold Fusion Times    http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html
     The journal of the scientific aspects of loading isotopic fuels into 
materials ISSN# 1072-2874

   JET Thermal Products   http://world.std.com/~mica/jet.html
      Working for Safe and More Efficient Heat Products to Serve You





From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 15 10:52:41 2005
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Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 13:51:32 -0400
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Subject: The Luz story: how to derail alternative energy
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Here is the sad story of the Luz corporation:

http://multinationalmonitor.org/hyper/issues/1992/04/mm0492_07.html

CONCLUSION:

Luz's collapse reflects the abundance of political, financial and 
technological problems facing the solar energy industry in the 1990s. Mike 
Lotker, formerly the vice president of Luz International Limited, points 
out that, while the company's management made "serious mistakes in managing 
growth and opportunities," it faced an an extraordinary number of 
difficulties. "A large number of barriers in the areas of taxation, 
regulation, policy and the marketplace itself resulted in a situation where 
Luz management had to perform flawlessly in order to succeed," he says.


Based on this, I would say the deck was stacked against them from the 
beginning, and there was little chance of success. The fossil fuel 
lobbyists and their friends in high places push through quotas, impossible 
rate structures, and constantly see-sawing taxes and subsidies to derail 
alternative energy. For example, Luz was forced to build 30 MW units (and 
later 80 MW units) even though 200 MW was their optimum cost-effective 
size, because the fossil fuel producers did not want effective competition 
on the 200 MW scale. Luz was forced to "dump" excess solar energy to avoid 
exceeding their production quota.

Fossil-fuel lobbyists play the same kinds of games to torpedo wind power. 
It is remarkable that wind has succeeded as well as it has against such 
unfair competition from powerful vested interests.

The fossil fuel industry pays no attention to cold fusion today. But if 
cold fusion ever begins to pan out, and threatens to become a commercial 
reality, I am sure they will pull out the stops and do everything they can 
to derail it. Cold fusion is hampered by technical problems and lack of 
theory. If it overcomes these problems it will face many more hurdles. It 
will not succeed without broad public support.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 15 10:56:40 2005
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Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 13:55:41 -0500
From: Harry Veeder <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: More test of Lifters
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Evidence that lifters follow unconventional physics:

http://jlnlabs.imars.com/lifters/vacuum/index.htm

Harry

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Mitchell Swartz wrote:

>    Wrong.
>    Cold fusion science and engineering should be taught to undergraduates.

Perhaps it should, but that is not what I said. I said it should not be in 
"in a high school or undergraduate textbook." Textbooks should include 
claims that are well understood, uncontroversial, and unchanging. There is 
still considerable controversy and confusion even within the ranks of cold 
fusion researchers. Any treatment of cold fusion would soon be dated. I 
would not teach it in high school. If it is taught to undergraduates I 
would recommend original source materials.


>Wrong.

It would be more accurate to say "I disagree," since this is a matter of 
opinion, and a political question.


>There SHOULD be a multi-billion dollar Manhattan Project to further 
>develop the most successful cold fusion technologies.

My guess is that this would cause more harm than good. Imagine how things 
would have turned out if the Japanese NEDO project had been scaled up to 
the size of the US Star Wars initiative. Instead of wasting $10 million (or 
whatever the final amount was), they would have wasted $100 billion. It 
would have been the absolute, final, indisputable nail in the coffin.

No one should doubt that governments can waste hundreds of billions on 
research projects of this nature. Look at Star Wars! Look at post-9/11 
homeland defense. They still cannot make 2-way radios work.


>    Wrong.
>    Cold fusion science and technology IS being made practical today -- 
> and will augment energy resources in the future.

As Ed Storms said, I know of no evidence that cold fusion technology is 
being made practical today. Perhaps I have overlooked something. Perhaps 
Swartz himself has such evidence, but he has not revealed it to me.

As I said before, if the iESi claims are true, that would be practical. But 
I have seen no details, no proof, and no replications of these claims.


>    Many of the claims made at ICCF conferences (and especially in the 
> Fusion Technology peer-reviewed
>    papers) are quite strong and many have been replicated and/or shown to 
> be reproducible . . .

That's true. Many are strong. Many others are weak, and still others have 
not been independently tested so we have no idea where they stand.


>- and developed into solid engineering principles.

That is not true as far as I know. We have strong, high Sigma reproducible 
physical effects in the laboratory, but that is million miles away from 
"solid engineering." No one disputes that high temperature 
superconductivity and cloning are strong and reproducible scientific 
claims, some worthy of Nobel prizes. Yet despite billions of dollars of R&D 
neither is ready to be commercialized.


>     Final comment: Suppression of science is wrong - from Galileo to today.

Agreed. On the other hand, suppression of dangerous pseudoscience, such as 
the claim that AIDS is not caused by HIV, is okay. I consider it ethical to 
try to prevent the publication of such ideas by protesting and bringing 
pressure on responsible newspapers and magazines. However this seldom 
works, and sometimes it ends up promoting the idea instead of quashing it. 
So I think it is usually better to ignore pseudoscience.

- Jed


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Subject: Re: Due Diligence on CF
Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 13:55:57 -0500
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> From: Mitchell Swartz 
> >From: Jed Rothwell

> > Even in the case of cold fusion, I do not oppose all forms 
> > of suppression. For example, I think it would be premature to
> > include a discussion of cold fusion in a high school or
> > undergraduate textbook. I do not think we should embark on a
> > billion-dollar Manhattan Project to develop cold fusion 
> > energy. We do not know whether it can be made practical, so 
> > we should not risk that kind of money. And, needless to say,
> > many of the claims made at ICCF conferences are weak, and
> > many have not been replicated, so we cannot believe them.
> >
> >- Jed
> 
>     Wrong.
>     Cold fusion science and engineering should be taught to 
> undergraduates.

I would agree with you. They should at least be exposed to it. If things turn out the way we hope it may soon turn out to be required reading.

>     Wrong.
>     There SHOULD be a multi-billion dollar Manhattan Project 
> to further develop the most successful cold fusion technologies.

I'd settle for two or three hundred million federal dollars set up annually as matching funds thrown at various research CF projects. Let government funding assist private enterprise in developing the technology for commercial purposes.


>     Wrong.
>     Cold fusion science and technology IS being made 
> practical today -- and will augment energy resources in the future.


It would appear that others like Jed feel that at present our total accumulated knowledge of the CF process has not yet reached a point where it could be considered "practical", certainly in the commercial sense. 

Granted there may be start-up enterprises that are deliberately working under the radar. Backlight Power comes to mind as an example of an enterprise that seems to be showing hints that it may be soon make a public presentation of a new technology they have been developing - most likely a BLP heater used for heating commercial buildings and homes.

It makes me wonder if you and Jed possess different interpretations concerning what is considered "practical."

...

>       "Fanaticism is always a sign of repressed doubts" - Iblis Ginjo

Good saying.

I'll remember it.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Jonson
www.OrionWorks.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 15 12:08:23 2005
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I wrote:

>For example, Luz was forced to build 30 MW units (and later 80 MW units) 
>even though 200 MW was their optimum cost-effective size . . .  Luz was 
>forced to "dump" excess solar energy to avoid exceeding their production quota.

I should have made it clear, there was a construction quota of 30 MW (per 
project unit), and was also a power production quota, which they had to 
avoid exceeding by defocussing the collectors.

By the end they managed to construct a total a 350 MW, adding units 30 to 
80 MW at a time. They wanted to build in 200 MW increments, but they were 
not allowed to. If they had been, they probably would have been profitable 
and still in business.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 15 12:37:16 2005
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To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Definition of "practical"
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OrionWorks wrote:

>It makes me wonder if you and Jed possess different interpretations 
>concerning what is considered "practical."

Good point. This is a complicated issue but let me list a few things that I 
consider necessary for a practical device. None of these have been achieved 
as far as I know.

Control. The device has to turn on reliably in an hour or less, and 
fluctuate no more than 10% or so. I have never seen a cell do this. Some 
energy devices, such as burning coal, cannot be turned off once they are 
on, but I hope that cold fusion cells can turn off, perhaps with some heat 
after death.

Scale. The device should produce at least 100 Watts of heat or 10 Watts of 
thermoelectric power. A few cold fusion cells have produced this much, but 
never under controlled conditions as far as I know. Most produce under a 
watt, because if you tried to increase them to 100 Watts, the cell would 
either do nothing or explode.

Operating range. The only cells I know of that operated at a useful 
temperature and power density were the last set of boiling cells 
constructed by Fleischmann and Pons, using Johnson-Matthey "special" 
palladium. The cell design and the palladium are both no longer available.

Safety. Cold fusion cells are probably safe, but we do not know this yet. 
Extensive testing under the widest possible range of conditions is called 
for, with laboratory rats and other species.

Durability. I have never seen a cell that could survive practical use for 
more than a few days. Most of the glow discharge cathodes disintegrate 
after 10 minutes of use.

Cost-effectiveness. If platinum group metals are required, cold fusion may 
not be cost-effective. It certainly will not be if the cathode material is 
transmuted.


Someone, perhaps Swartz, iESi, or Mills, may have reached these goals. But 
I have no knowledge of any such development. Believe me, I would tell the 
world about something like this!

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 15 12:38:25 2005
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
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Subject: RE: Open Source Energy Project Proposal
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You're swimming upstream against the "Agenda Gap" John.  :-)

Some Solar Storage info:

http://www.ces.purdue.edu/extmedia/AE/AE-89.html

Frederick


> [Original Message]
> From: John Steck <johnsteck tetrahelix.com>
> To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> Date: 9/15/05 11:12:38 AM
> Subject: Open Source Energy Project Proposal
>
> Ahhhh.... I almost forgot this was a science/engineering discussion list.
> 8^)
>
> Thank you very much for tossing this one in Michael.  Lets start with a
> practical application and work backwards to 'how'.  I want to generate 100
> kWh of electricity per day on a 12,000 sqft lot in a residential suburb of
> Chicago.  Excess to be dumped into a storage system or sold back to the
> grid.  
>
> Some ideas:
> 1) Solar cell electrolysis to feed a fuel cell stack.  
> 2) Solar thermal to drive a sterling generator.  
> 3) Solar thermal to steam drive a bladeless turbine generator.   
> 4) Solar thermal to dump into a geological reservoir to drive a Sterling
> generator and/or heat pump system  
> 5) Solar thermal to produce ethanol from biomass to drive an ICE/Sterling
> generator.
> 6) ?
>
> I am with Fred on this one... Looking for something to fill the immediate
> need that is not prohibitive in cost or complexity, relatively safe, and
> that can be ready in time to offset energy needs this winter.  CF ain't
it.
> Lets please stop the mindless religious, political, and conspiracy debates
> and get working on something that will actually make a positive impact
right
> now.
>
> Just my 2 cents.  Anyone else interested in participating in an
open-source
> project like this?  Happy to contribute all the resources at my disposal
to
> the effort.
>
> -john
>
>  ~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~
>   John Steck
>   High Impact Product Development Services
>   DESIGN - ENGINEERING - MANUFACTURING - MARKETING
>   ~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~
>
>   Quality is never an accident; 
>   it is always the result of high intention,
>   sincere effort, intelligent direction, 
>   and skillful execution.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Foster [mailto:michael.foster excite.com] 
> Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2005 12:47 AM
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: Fresnel Dream
>
>
>
> A number of recent posts on this list have concerned various schemes to
use
> solar concentrators.  This is something I've been fascinated with and have
> played around with all my life.
>
> I own a company that manufactures, among other things, fresnel lens
arrays.
> Unfortunately, these have been used exclusively for rather 
> trivial decorative purposes.  Their main form has been arrays of
metallized
> negative fresnels.  This is quite attractive and results in a rather
> convincing and compelling 3D illusion of a shiny metal ball floating
behind
> the surface of the substrate.  You can seen the results of my work on the
> cover of the latest Guiness Book of World Records.  There is a picture of
> this at:
>
> http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/
>
> The picture, of course, doesn't show the 3D aspect very well. (End of
> self-promoting commercial)
>
> The thing is, it's actually much easier to make a single large fresnel
than
> to make these decorative arrays.  What I have in mind is to make not a
large
> single fresnel lens, but a quarter of one.  The quarter sections could
then
> be assembled on a light-weight frame into a relatively large solar
> concentrator.  The process I use has a number of advantages over those
> previously implemented
>
> These lenses are made in continuous rolls, rather than pressed as 
> individual parts.  Because of a number of other innovations I am able to
> manufacture and sell this stuff for less than a dollar per square meter.
> This is roughly 1% of the cost of conventionally manufactured fresnels.
> Further, these are made on a high tensile strength polyester substrate,
> allowing thin pieces to be stretched on a frame.  The stuff is so cheap it
> might be less expensive to replace it than to clean it.
>
> My largest machine runs film 65 inches wide, meaning four sections
assembled
> together would give you a square 3.3 meters on a side.  So you have 10.9
> square meters of concentrator area capable of focusing a spot about 3cm at
> f1.  Direct measurement of the type of fresnel I make gives about 80% of
the
> incident sunlight delivered to the focus.  Now surely someone could figure
> out what to do with more than 8kW of concentrated heat in a 3cm spot.
>
> The frame structure I have in mind would be a pyramid with cross bars
> traversing  the base to support the quarter sections and the focus would
be
> at the apex.  Clearly, this type of frame could be made light-weight and
> relatively inexpensive.  Nevertheless, the fresnel lens would be the least
> expensive part of the whole thing. My production capacity is really quite
> large and can be expanded quickly.
>
> Unlike reflective concentrators, fresnel lenses can undergo considerable
> flexing and disortion without seriously affecting their performance.
>
> What I would like to know, since there is such a variety of knowledgable
> people on this list, what would be the best use of 8kW of concentrated
solar
> energy?  Thermoelectric?  Stirling? Zinc reduction? What?  I really don't
> know what do with this, if anything.
>
> M.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
> The most personalized portal on the Web!
>
>



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 15 13:13:41 2005
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From: "Jones Beene" <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
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Subject: Re: Open Source Energy Project Proposal
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Frederick Sparber"

> You're swimming upstream against the "Agenda Gap" John.  :-)

Maybe not Fred. I like John's premise of an open source project, 
but is there a single project that would close the agenda gap?

Of the ones John mentioned,  something involving electrolysis 
would certainly fit in with much of the expertise of vortex.

If we can assume that biomass is indeed "carbon" neutral, thsi 
being Fred's expertise (and he would not doubt give us free use of 
his patents) then that is osme progress. And if we can agree that 
the goal is a transportation fuel, then that narrows the gap. The 
big objection to ethanol, otherwise a great fuel, is that in 
normal production from grain, it consumes more net energy than it 
produces. This can be overcome using solar... solar plus ??

Biomass ethanol is a big step in the right direction and solar 
thermal can do the trick, but the clever researchers at Purdue and 
elsewhere seem to have that angle already covered pretty well.

What about the electrolysis of biomass?

Not a joke... but an even better starting point might be involve 
sono-chemistry rather than, or in addition to, the electrolysis of 
a biomass slurry with the intent of obtaining a liquid fuel (part 
ethanol) with far less than energy input. A good raw material 
would be saw dust, or bark from paper making, and/or recycled bulk 
paper that is too degrade to reuse as paper pulp.

Is this closing the agenda gap any?

Jones


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Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 16:18:20 -0500
From: Harry Veeder <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: A philisophical thought.
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The philosophy underpinning free energy research does not subscribe to the
principle that it is possible to get something FROM nothing. It subscribes
to the principle that it is possible and SOMETIMES preferable to get
something BY DOING nothing.

Harry



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 15 13:32:28 2005
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Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 16:31:18 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Definition of "practical"
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I wrote:

>Scale. The device should produce at least 100 Watts of heat or 10 Watts of 
>thermoelectric power.

By the way, many fringe inventors have the impression that a device must 
produce thousands of Watts before it is practical. This is incorrect. There 
are many commercial uses for a 10 to 100 Watt device. Even a 10 W heater 
would be useful for some niche applications, such as keeping equipment warm 
in the Arctic.

- Jed


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From: OrionWorks <orionworks charter.net>
Organization: OrionWorks
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
CC: <orionworks charter.net>
Subject: Re: A philisophical thought.
Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 15:33:27 -0500
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> From: Harry Veeder 

> The philosophy underpinning free energy research does not 
> subscribe to the principle that it is possible to get
> something FROM nothing. It subscribes to the principle
> that it is possible and SOMETIMES preferable to get
> something BY DOING nothing.
> 
> Harry

"By DOING nothing"?

If that were the case I think the entire planet would have been luxuriating in free energy a long time ago.

Grade: Incomplete.

Try again.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

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From: "Jones Beene" <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
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Subject: Re: Open Source Energy Project Proposal
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Apologies for the last message somehow escaping the spell-checker, which =
is set to be always on - but it has its own mind towards the end of the =
week.

As for some more thoughts on the open source suggestion: there are =
(were) a few organic chemists on this forum in the past, so here is a =
$64 question for anyone who has looked into the sonochemistry of such =
things as biomass.

First the setup. Nice web page on sonochemistry:
http://www.scs.uiuc.edu/suslick/britannica.html

Second: A primary intermediary besides ethanol and methanol is =
Formaldehyde - HCHO - the simplest aldehyde; melts at -92=B0C, boils at =
-21=B0C, and is soluble in water; a flammable, poisonous, colorless gas =
with a suffocating odor which most of us associate with highschool =
biology (early imprinting). Pure gaseous formaldehyde is uncommon, since =
it readily polymerizes into a plethora of chemicals based on whatever it =
is in contact with, including itself. One assumes that this is part of =
its toxicity and power as a preservative.

But the interesting thing is the molecule in the context of cheap =
biomass and water. Look at the formula and you can see it all spelled =
out. Unfortunately nature is never that simple. Normal high temperature =
chemistry cannot convert carbon and water directly in one step into =
anything that does not give substantial CO or CO2. This is parasitic as =
very much of either of those two gases kill the economics of what is to =
be suggested. And even if water and biomass could yield substantial =
formaldehyde + ethanol - so what - what is the use?

Obvious, my dear Watson. It is in the aforementioned polymerization =
potential. Formaldehyde combined with more biomass or with intermediates =
such as ethanol or whatever comes out of the sound-bath. This can equate =
to many valuable partially oxidized fuels, as a bulk mixture which will =
substitute for gasoline. Perhaps it can all be done in a single step if =
one can limit the CO and CO2 (parasitic) oxidation..

By the way, as to the carbon, US coal still costs under $40/ton or 2 =
cents a pound. How close is dry biomass to that? Cut that biomass with =
water and you have raw materials at an average price of under 8 cents a =
gallon and a wholesale value of about 20 times that much ... plus =
unlimited demand as it is a PC home-grown substitute for Arab oil - and =
the farm/forestry lobby will pounce on it like stink on a papermill. BTW =
the wholesale price of $3 gasoline is about $1.60 and the rest goes to =
taxes and some small profit at the station.

Is the sonochemistry of a biomass slurry the answer to avoid CO and CO2 =
parasitic oxidation before you get mostly ethanol, methanol, =
formaldehyde, and the other liquid fuel substitutes ? Can sonochemistry =
be combined with electrolysis to advantage ?

Jones



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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Apologies for the last message somehow =
escaping the=20
spell-checker, which is set to be always on - but it has its own mind =
towards=20
the end of the week.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>As for some more thoughts on the open =
source=20
suggestion:&nbsp;there are (were) a few organic chemists on this forum =
in the=20
past, so here is a $64 question for anyone who has looked into&nbsp;the=20
sonochemistry of such things as biomass.<BR><BR>First the setup. Nice =
web page=20
on sonochemistry:<BR></FONT><A href=3D""><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>http://www.scs.uiuc.edu/suslick/britannica.html</FONT></A><BR><B=
R><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2>Second: A primary intermediary besides ethanol and =
methanol is=20
Formaldehyde - HCHO - the simplest aldehyde; melts at -92=B0C, boils at =
-21=B0C, and=20
is soluble in water; a flammable, poisonous, colorless gas with a =
suffocating=20
odor which most of us associate with highschool biology (early =
imprinting). Pure=20
gaseous formaldehyde is uncommon, since it readily polymerizes into a =
plethora=20
of chemicals based on whatever it is in contact with, including itself. =
One=20
assumes that this is part of its toxicity and power as a=20
preservative.<BR><BR>But the interesting thing is the molecule in the =
context of=20
cheap biomass and water. Look at the formula and you can see it all =
spelled out.=20
Unfortunately nature is never that simple. Normal high temperature =
chemistry=20
cannot convert carbon and water directly in one step into anything that =
does not=20
give substantial CO or CO2. This is parasitic as&nbsp;very much of =
either of=20
those two gases kill the economics of what is to be suggested. And even =
if water=20
and biomass could yield substantial formaldehyde&nbsp;+ ethanol&nbsp;- =
so what -=20
what is the use?<BR><BR>Obvious, my dear Watson. It is in the =
aforementioned=20
polymerization potential. Formaldehyde combined with more biomass or =
with=20
intermediates such as ethanol or whatever comes out of the sound-bath. =
This can=20
equate to many valuable partially oxidized fuels, as a bulk mixture =
which will=20
substitute for gasoline. Perhaps it can all be done in a single step if =
one can=20
limit the CO and CO2 (parasitic) oxidation..<BR><BR>By the way, as to =
the=20
carbon, US coal still costs under $40/ton or 2 cents a pound. How close =
is dry=20
biomass to that? Cut that biomass with water and you have raw materials =
at an=20
average price of under 8 cents a gallon and a wholesale value of about =
20 times=20
that much ... plus unlimited demand as it is a&nbsp;PC home-grown =
substitute for=20
Arab oil - and the farm/forestry&nbsp;lobby will pounce on it like stink =
on a=20
papermill. BTW the wholesale price of $3 gasoline is about $1.60 and the =
rest=20
goes to taxes and some small profit at the station.<BR><BR>Is the =
sonochemistry=20
of a biomass slurry the answer to avoid CO and CO2 parasitic oxidation =
before=20
you get mostly ethanol, methanol, formaldehyde, and the other liquid =
fuel=20
substitutes ? Can sonochemistry be combined with electrolysis to =
advantage=20
?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Jones</DIV>
<DIV><BR><BR></DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C5B9FA.EE67A6A0--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 15 13:46:39 2005
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Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 16:45:40 -0500
From: Harry Veeder <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: A philisophical thought.
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OrionWorks wrote:

>> From: Harry Veeder
> 
>> The philosophy underpinning free energy research does not
>> subscribe to the principle that it is possible to get
>> something FROM nothing. It subscribes to the principle
>> that it is possible and SOMETIMES preferable to get
>> something BY DOING nothing.
>> 
>> Harry
> 
> "By DOING nothing"?
> 
> If that were the case I think the entire planet would have been luxuriating in
> free energy a long time ago.
> 
> Grade: Incomplete.
> 
> Try again.
> 
> Regards,
> Steven Vincent Johnson
> www.OrionWorks.com
> 

Doing nothing simply means taking the time to do something of value besides
producing something for sale.

e.g. being there for someone.


Harry

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Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 16:48:38 -0500
From: Harry Veeder <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: Definition of "practical"
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Jed Rothwell wrote:

> I wrote:
> 
>> Scale. The device should produce at least 100 Watts of heat or 10 Watts of
>> thermoelectric power.
> 
> By the way, many fringe inventors have the impression that a device must
> produce thousands of Watts before it is practical. This is incorrect. There
> are many commercial uses for a 10 to 100 Watt device. Even a 10 W heater
> would be useful for some niche applications, such as keeping equipment warm
> in the Arctic.
> 
> - Jed
> 
> 

and heated clothing?

Harry

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Subject: RE: Open Source Energy Project Proposal
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I dunno.  I thought that ultrasonics were really good at going in the =
wrong direction, namely polymerization instead of tearing chains down
into handy little molecules.
=20
How do you use electrolysis on organics?  It's all full of covalent =
bonds.
=20
Dumb question:  can anyone demonstrate an efficient production of =
carbides in a microwave?  like magnesium or calcium?
This would be a nifty way to make acetylene - which you can power =
engines with.

________________________________

From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9 pacbell.net]=20
Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2005 4:40 PM
To: vortex
Subject: Re: Open Source Energy Project Proposal


Apologies for the last message somehow escaping the spell-checker, which =
is set to be always on - but it has its own mind towards the end of the =
week.
=20
As for some more thoughts on the open source suggestion: there are =
(were) a few organic chemists on this forum in the past, so here is a =
$64 question for anyone who has looked into the sonochemistry of such =
things as biomass.

First the setup. Nice web page on sonochemistry:
http://www.scs.uiuc.edu/suslick/britannica.html

Second: A primary intermediary besides ethanol and methanol is =
Formaldehyde - HCHO - the simplest aldehyde; melts at -92=B0C, boils at =
-21=B0C, and is soluble in water; a flammable, poisonous, colorless gas =
with a suffocating odor which most of us associate with highschool =
biology (early imprinting). Pure gaseous formaldehyde is uncommon, since =
it readily polymerizes into a plethora of chemicals based on whatever it =
is in contact with, including itself. One assumes that this is part of =
its toxicity and power as a preservative.

But the interesting thing is the molecule in the context of cheap =
biomass and water. Look at the formula and you can see it all spelled =
out. Unfortunately nature is never that simple. Normal high temperature =
chemistry cannot convert carbon and water directly in one step into =
anything that does not give substantial CO or CO2. This is parasitic as =
very much of either of those two gases kill the economics of what is to =
be suggested. And even if water and biomass could yield substantial =
formaldehyde + ethanol - so what - what is the use?

Obvious, my dear Watson. It is in the aforementioned polymerization =
potential. Formaldehyde combined with more biomass or with intermediates =
such as ethanol or whatever comes out of the sound-bath. This can equate =
to many valuable partially oxidized fuels, as a bulk mixture which will =
substitute for gasoline. Perhaps it can all be done in a single step if =
one can limit the CO and CO2 (parasitic) oxidation..

By the way, as to the carbon, US coal still costs under $40/ton or 2 =
cents a pound. How close is dry biomass to that? Cut that biomass with =
water and you have raw materials at an average price of under 8 cents a =
gallon and a wholesale value of about 20 times that much ... plus =
unlimited demand as it is a PC home-grown substitute for Arab oil - and =
the farm/forestry lobby will pounce on it like stink on a papermill. BTW =
the wholesale price of $3 gasoline is about $1.60 and the rest goes to =
taxes and some small profit at the station.

Is the sonochemistry of a biomass slurry the answer to avoid CO and CO2 =
parasitic oxidation before you get mostly ethanol, methanol, =
formaldehyde, and the other liquid fuel substitutes ? Can sonochemistry =
be combined with electrolysis to advantage ?
=20
Jones



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<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D889334620-15092005><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>I dunno.&nbsp; I thought that ultrasonics were =
really good=20
at going in the wrong direction, namely polymerization instead of =
tearing chains=20
down</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D889334620-15092005><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>into handy little =
molecules.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D889334620-15092005><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D889334620-15092005><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>How do you use electrolysis on organics?&nbsp; =
It's all=20
full of covalent bonds.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D889334620-15092005><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D889334620-15092005><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Dumb question:&nbsp; can anyone demonstrate an =
efficient=20
production of carbides in a microwave?&nbsp; like magnesium or=20
calcium?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D889334620-15092005><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>This would be a nifty way to make acetylene - =
which you can=20
power engines with.</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
<HR tabIndex=3D-1>
<FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> Jones Beene =
[mailto:jonesb9 pacbell.net]=20
<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, September 15, 2005 4:40 PM<BR><B>To:</B>=20
vortex<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: Open Source Energy Project=20
Proposal<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Apologies for the last message somehow =
escaping the=20
spell-checker, which is set to be always on - but it has its own mind =
towards=20
the end of the week.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>As for some more thoughts on the open =
source=20
suggestion:&nbsp;there are (were) a few organic chemists on this forum =
in the=20
past, so here is a $64 question for anyone who has looked into&nbsp;the=20
sonochemistry of such things as biomass.<BR><BR>First the setup. Nice =
web page=20
on sonochemistry:<BR></FONT><A href=3D""><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>http://www.scs.uiuc.edu/suslick/britannica.html</FONT></A><BR><B=
R><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2>Second: A primary intermediary besides ethanol and =
methanol is=20
Formaldehyde - HCHO - the simplest aldehyde; melts at -92=B0C, boils at =
-21=B0C, and=20
is soluble in water; a flammable, poisonous, colorless gas with a =
suffocating=20
odor which most of us associate with highschool biology (early =
imprinting). Pure=20
gaseous formaldehyde is uncommon, since it readily polymerizes into a =
plethora=20
of chemicals based on whatever it is in contact with, including itself. =
One=20
assumes that this is part of its toxicity and power as a=20
preservative.<BR><BR>But the interesting thing is the molecule in the =
context of=20
cheap biomass and water. Look at the formula and you can see it all =
spelled out.=20
Unfortunately nature is never that simple. Normal high temperature =
chemistry=20
cannot convert carbon and water directly in one step into anything that =
does not=20
give substantial CO or CO2. This is parasitic as&nbsp;very much of =
either of=20
those two gases kill the economics of what is to be suggested. And even =
if water=20
and biomass could yield substantial formaldehyde&nbsp;+ ethanol&nbsp;- =
so what -=20
what is the use?<BR><BR>Obvious, my dear Watson. It is in the =
aforementioned=20
polymerization potential. Formaldehyde combined with more biomass or =
with=20
intermediates such as ethanol or whatever comes out of the sound-bath. =
This can=20
equate to many valuable partially oxidized fuels, as a bulk mixture =
which will=20
substitute for gasoline. Perhaps it can all be done in a single step if =
one can=20
limit the CO and CO2 (parasitic) oxidation..<BR><BR>By the way, as to =
the=20
carbon, US coal still costs under $40/ton or 2 cents a pound. How close =
is dry=20
biomass to that? Cut that biomass with water and you have raw materials =
at an=20
average price of under 8 cents a gallon and a wholesale value of about =
20 times=20
that much ... plus unlimited demand as it is a&nbsp;PC home-grown =
substitute for=20
Arab oil - and the farm/forestry&nbsp;lobby will pounce on it like stink =
on a=20
papermill. BTW the wholesale price of $3 gasoline is about $1.60 and the =
rest=20
goes to taxes and some small profit at the station.<BR><BR>Is the =
sonochemistry=20
of a biomass slurry the answer to avoid CO and CO2 parasitic oxidation =
before=20
you get mostly ethanol, methanol, formaldehyde, and the other liquid =
fuel=20
substitutes ? Can sonochemistry be combined with electrolysis to =
advantage=20
?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Jones</DIV>
<DIV><BR><BR></DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>

------_=_NextPart_001_01C5BA37.42216B89--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 15 14:02:32 2005
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Definition of "practical"
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Harry Veeder wrote:

> > Even a 10 W heater
> > would be useful for some niche applications, such as keeping equipment warm
> > in the Arctic.
>
>and heated clothing?

Ah, yes. A pocket warmer, like the kind people use at a football game. They 
sell chemical heaters like that in Japan.

That kind of application will definitely have to wait until all safety 
concerns have been allayed. I would not want to put a nuclear powered 
heater in my pocket. No thanks!

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 15 14:20:15 2005
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From: OrionWorks <orionworks charter.net>
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Jed sez:
> Ah, yes. A pocket warmer, like the kind people use at
> a football game. They sell chemical heaters like that
> in Japan.

They sell them here in the U.S. as well. They are quite effective.

> That kind of application will definitely have to wait
> until all safety concerns have been allayed. I would
> not want to put a nuclear powered heater in my pocket.
> No thanks!
> 
> - Jed

Especially if one is planning on having children.

Otherwise, roasted chestnuts anyone?

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 15 14:26:28 2005
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From: OrionWorks <orionworks charter.net>
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>OrionWorks sez:
> >Jed sez:
> > Ah, yes. A pocket warmer, like the kind people use at
> > a football game. They sell chemical heaters like that
> > in Japan.
> 
> They sell them here in the U.S. as well. They are quite effective.

Oops! I misunderstood you.

You mean chemical heaters for a room I presume, not hand warmers.

> > That kind of application will definitely have to wait
> > until all safety concerns have been allayed. I would
> > not want to put a nuclear powered heater in my pocket.
> > No thanks!
> > 
> > - Jed
> 
> Especially if one is planning on having children.
> 
> Otherwise, roasted chestnuts anyone?

Wel...I'm not planning on having any children.

(Married into an instant family - a great time saver.)

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

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From: John Fields <jfields austininstruments.com>
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Subject: Re: Definition of "practical"
Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 16:38:24 -0500
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On Thu, 15 Sep 2005 16:48:38 -0500, you wrote:

>Jed Rothwell wrote:
>
>> I wrote:
>> 
>>> Scale. The device should produce at least 100 Watts of heat or 10 Watts of
>>> thermoelectric power.
>> 
>> By the way, many fringe inventors have the impression that a device must
>> produce thousands of Watts before it is practical. This is incorrect. There
>> are many commercial uses for a 10 to 100 Watt device. Even a 10 W heater
>> would be useful for some niche applications, such as keeping equipment warm
>> in the Arctic.
>> 
>> - Jed
>> 
>> 
>
>and heated clothing?

---
With an average well-fed human needing to dissipate about 100 watts
in temperate conditions, in order to stay alive, a 10 watt "hot
suit" wouldn't help much, in my view,  considering the losses
required in order to get, and keep, the hot suit working when it got
cold outside.



-- 
John Fields
Professional Circuit Designer 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 15 14:59:18 2005
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Disposable chemical pocket warmer
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OrionWorks wrote:

> > > Ah, yes. A pocket warmer, like the kind people use at
> > > a football game. They sell chemical heaters like that
> > > in Japan.
> >
> > They sell them here in the U.S. as well. They are quite effective.
>
>Oops! I misunderstood you.
>
>You mean chemical heaters for a room I presume, not hand warmers.

I mean hand warmers. "Disposable chemical pocket warmers." Little plastic 
bags full of chemicals, mostly iron filings, I think. You smoosh or bend 
the bag to mix the chemicals, and it gets hot for several hours. I guess it 
puts out a couple of watts. I am trying to think of what they are called . 
. . Ah, "kairo." See:

http://www.scienceiq.com/ShowFact.cfm?ID=212

http://www.sportstek.net/hotteeze.htm

Apparently you have to admit air into the bag. It would be interesting to 
see what would happen if a whole box of these things was damaged.

I have not seen these in the U.S.

- Jed


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From: Harry Veeder <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca>

>Evidence that lifters follow unconventional physics:
>
>http://jlnlabs.imars.com/lifters/vacuum/index.htm

What is unconventional about the two "plate" components of a charged capacitor being attracted to each other?

Jeffery D. Kooistra

 

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Jeff and Dorothy Kooistra wrote:

> From: Harry Veeder <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca>
> 
>> Evidence that lifters follow unconventional physics:
>> 
>> http://jlnlabs.imars.com/lifters/vacuum/index.htm
> 
> What is unconventional about the two "plate" components of a charged capacitor
> being attracted to each other?
> 
> Jeffery D. Kooistra
> 
> 
> 

The force of attraction is apparently not equal and opposite.
If the force were equal and opposite it would not lift off the ground.

This means either Newton's third law is contextual rather than universal
(which is the possibility I favour) OR there is some invisible mechanism at
work.

Naudin's vacuum experiment suggests that the invisible mechanism cannot be
related to the ionisation of the surrounding air.

If you are interested there are a few more experiments by Naudin which
suggest that ionisation is not the cause.

see

http://jnaudin.free.fr/lifters/perf.htm

Harry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 15 15:45:48 2005
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[Here is the message I sent to the CMNS forum. Readers here may find it 
amusing. Those who feel guilty reading this should snap to it and send me 
your data. - JR]


I am working with a certain researcher this week who shall remain nameless. 
He sent me a splendid paper from 1989. I converted to text with OCR, and I 
am working on the figures, which were grouped at the end. It turns out he 
did not send Figs. 1 and 2, which have the most critical data. He is now 
looking around through piles of paper to find them. I sent him the 
following message. This also applies to many of the readers of this forum, 
and you know who you are:


. . .  I sure hope you find those graphs.

You know, you cold fusion researchers drive me crazy. Maybe it is because I 
am a programmer, and now a librarian, but I hate to see people lose 
critical, historically valuable data. Dr. X, Dr. Y. and Dr. Z have been 
particularly bad about doing that . . .

This reminds me of an event from the early history of aviation, which is a 
hobby of mine. On December 17, 1903, the Wright brothers flew for the first 
time at Kitty Hawk. They flew four times. It was a cold winter day. As they 
were taking a break, a powerful gust of wind overturned the airplane and 
smashed it beyond repair. Then, according to some accounts, they looked at 
the wreckage and debated whether it was worth crating up and shipping back 
to Dayton, or whether they should set fire to it and make a bonfire to warm 
up. (They abandoned or destroyed some of their earlier gliders.)

They decided to keep the wreckage. They brought it home, and left it in a 
crate for several years. It was almost destroyed in a flood. Finally, it 
was brought it out and restored. It is now in the Smithsonian, where it is 
considered one of the most important, priceless, historical objects of all 
time, and certainly the most historic aviation relic.

In my opinion, if cold fusion can be perfected it will be far more 
important than aviation. Experimental apparatus, computer data, the graphs, 
and photographs of equipment will end up in museums, like the early 
airplanes, equipment and photos from the Wrights, Curtis, Sopwith, and 
other aviation pioneers. But you people who have this data have casually 
thrown it away or lost it. You have the same attitude the Wrights did -- 
which is not surprising, really. To you, this is just one more workaday, 
ordinary paper, like the kind you have been dealing with all your life. The 
Wrights had airplane parts piled up to the ceiling in their workshop; you 
have old scientific papers.

But I wish you would send every scrap to me, for preservation. . . .


And that goes for everyone here. Do not send copies; send me the best 
quality, most original copy of the figures you can come up with. The 
quality is better and they are easier to work with. If you mail me the 
originals, I will scan them and return them promptly.

My address is:

Jed Rothwell
1954 Airport Rd Ste 204
Chamblee, GA  30341-4953


Here are some technical pointers for people who want to scan papers themselves.

Use uncompressed TIF format. Yes, it takes up a ton of space, but any other 
format is blurred, and becomes more blurred as the images are cleaned up 
and adjusted. Many graphs and figures have to be touched up to remove stray 
marks and other noise.

With black and white documents use grayscale, at least 300 dpi resolution.
Color documents should be in True Color, 300 dpi.
With critical graphs and small, detailed figures use grayscale, 400 dpi or 
more.

Photos in magazine and newspaper clippings should be de-screened (the moire 
pattern should be removed with a software option). They seldom reveal 
anything above 200 dpi.

The default brightness and contrast will probably work with the OCR 
program, and for the figures these parameters can always be adjusted.

Send me a sample converted to .jpg format before you scan the whole batch.

If you do not understand the above technical pointers, step away from the 
scanner, put your hands down, place the paper in an envelope, and mail it 
to me. Use a padded envelope.

- Jed 


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 15 17:49:57 2005
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From: OrionWorks <orionworks charter.net>
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To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Disposable chemical pocket warmer
Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 19:49:04 -0500
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> Jed sez:

...
> I mean hand warmers. "Disposable chemical pocket warmers." Little plastic 
> bags full of chemicals, mostly iron filings, I think. You smoosh or bend 
> the bag to mix the chemicals, and it gets hot for several hours. I guess it 
> puts out a couple of watts. I am trying to think of what they are called . 
> . . Ah, "kairo." See:
> 
> http://www.scienceiq.com/ShowFact.cfm?ID=212
> 
> http://www.sportstek.net/hotteeze.htm
> 
> Apparently you have to admit air into the bag. It would be interesting to 
> see what would happen if a whole box of these things was damaged.
> 
> I have not seen these in the U.S.

They do exist in the U.S.

I used them on a Wisconsin skiing outing back in the 70-80s. They worked quite well keeping my hands warm on the chair lift.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 15 19:44:25 2005
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From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
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Subject: totally OT: a fallen moon
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As a kid in the 1960s I remember staring at the world map in the classroom
and *knowing* that the Americas fit with Europe and Africa like a jigsaw
puzzle.  In 1965 this was geological heresy, but the grade school kids
like me were seeing something real, something that professional geologists
denied.

So now I'm looking at the map of Mars over my desk, and I know enough to
take my first impressions seriously.  The Valles Marineris
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valles_Marineris) is too straight.  WAY too
straight.  Well, actually it's curved in a sine wave that extends as a
discoloration across more than half the planet.  (World maps with sine
waves drawn on them are plots of orbiting spacecraft, where the angled
circular orbit is "unrolled" to form a wave.)  Also, Valles Marineris is
aligned with the Martian equator, so it's also aligned with the plane of
the ecliptic where moon orbits lie.  Maybe not a coincidence.  Also,
Valles Marineris has many widely separate parallel features which are also
perfectly straight.  Also there are all kinds of crater chains
(http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/moc_atlas/mc18.jpg) parallel to the
valley all around the same region.

Yet explanations of this valley talk about a cracking crust.  Perhaps.
But I don't believe it.  There are linear gouges and broad lines of
discoloration WAY downstream of the main valley.  I predict that within a
decade or two the expert opinion will shift: Valles Marineris is an
astrobleme, it was carved out by a moon that fell from orbit.  The Valles
region doesn't extend all the way around the planet, so it probably wasn't
caused by a planetary ring.  It's composed of several large parallel
tracks, so the moon probably exploded and the cloud started expanding
before it came down.

Imagine the event!  An entire moon hits the atmosphere and breaks up into
two or three huge chunks plus lots of rubble, into a hundred asteroids,
which then roll across the land at orbital velocity from horizon to
horizon like incandescent bowling balls the size of Manhattan.



(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb at amasci com                         http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair
Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 15 20:05:01 2005
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I failed to make a number of points in my fresnel lens post.
It was Strother Martin syndrome, "What we have heah is a
failyah to commun'cate."

I really must emphasize again how much cheaper my
fresnel stuff is, less than a dollar per square meter.  The
thickness, weight and tensile strength combine with the low
cost to reduce the cost of all the other components of a 
solar concentrator.  I have made this material on a substrate
as thin as 10 microns.  The simple pyramidal framework made
possible by the properties of the thin high tensile strength
fresnel film can be assembled out of common materials by
almost anyone.  It could be made of bamboo if necessary.
The whole thing, whatever size, could even be disassembled
and portable.

Another advantage I didn't point out is that the whole 
concentrator structure is so light-weight that it could pivot
around a rigidly ground mounted engine or other heat driven
device.  Thus, the engine does not have to be designed to be
suspended in the air and connected to the ground through
various clumsy tubes or wires.

Also, my desciption of assembling four quarter fresnels is not
the only way it could be done.  This was just for the convenience
of using identical sections.  For example, three different sections
could assembled into a nine part lens.  So really, this gadget
can be scaled up to almost any size.

Transparency of the material covers almost the entire solar 
spectrum except the short uv.  The main obstacle to the 
efficiency of the concentrator isn't the transparency of the
plastic, but the natural tendency of fresnel lenses to scatter
light at the edges and corners of the facets.  But let me say
again, that I measured directly about 80% of the total sunlight
from the fresnel surface delivered to the focus.

Although it is actually much easier for me to make the linear
fresnels for the trough type solar concentrators, I just kind of
like the idea of all that energy on a little spot, lotsa delta-T in
there.  Didn't Mr. Carnot teach us lesson about that?

Having said all this, I must add that I'm my own worst skeptic
on whether any of this will be put to any practical advantage.
It would require the participation of a large corporation or a
government agency.  Simple, inexpensive, easily executed
things are anathema to large corps. or governments, whose
behavior is almost identical.

I am ready to provide millions of these fresnels whenever 
someone is actually willing to buy them.

M.







_______________________________________________
Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
The most personalized portal on the Web!


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 16 00:41:28 2005
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Subject: Re: More test of Lifters
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Harry Veeder wrote:

>Evidence that lifters follow unconventional physics:
>
>http://jlnlabs.imars.com/lifters/vacuum/index.htm
>
>Harry
>
>  
>
That's convincing! We need to get a power source that will power the 
thing. Counting the power source & transformers into the payload 
capacity is the chalenge.I have some power plant power to weight data. 
I'll see what the calculations yeald.

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OrionWorks wrote:

>>Jed sez:
>>    
>>
>
>...
>  
>
>>I mean hand warmers. "Disposable chemical pocket warmers." Little plastic 
>>bags full of chemicals, mostly iron filings, I think. You smoosh or bend 
>>the bag to mix the chemicals, and it gets hot for several hours. I guess it 
>>puts out a couple of watts. I am trying to think of what they are called . 
>>. . Ah, "kairo." See:
>>
>>http://www.scienceiq.com/ShowFact.cfm?ID=212
>>
>>http://www.sportstek.net/hotteeze.htm
>>
>>Apparently you have to admit air into the bag. It would be interesting to 
>>see what would happen if a whole box of these things was damaged.
>>
>>I have not seen these in the U.S.
>>    
>>
>
>They do exist in the U.S.
>
>I used them on a Wisconsin skiing outing back in the 70-80s. They worked quite well keeping my hands warm on the chair lift.
>
>Regards,
>Steven Vincent Johnson
>www.OrionWorks.com
>
>  
>
The ones I have are an American make. They use a exothermic salt 
crystallization reaction. The jell goes hard as it crystallizes and 
generates heat. The thing goes soft again if you boil it in water. I've 
had them for about 10 years. There very nice in a sleeping bag on a cold 
army exercise. I have a solar stove design using these things heat them 
by day with the sun and use them at night to cook diner.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 16 01:04:28 2005
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Subject: On cold electricity
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I've decided to synopsize cold electricity.

I concluded that if the cold electricity can be replicated, it would 
be a tool to cohere the vacuum. For this reason and that 
investigators have witnessed the phenomena, I've decided to continue 
my attempts to discuss it. This phenomena is outside of normal 
electromagnetics.

Two legitimate scientists, Roger Hastings and Sparky Sweet have 
witnessed the phenomena. Dr. Hastings was working as a consultant for 
Joseph Newman, and reported that the Newman motor cooled down the 
room when it operated. Sparky Sweet

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Having read what was posted, I've decided to write a synopsis. I am 
submitting this to the list for comment.

Access to heavy water has been made more difficult, however if you 
can demonstrate that you are a legitimate scientist, you can procure 
it.

There is no experimental evidence that fissile radioneuclides can be 
produced by low energy nuclear reactions. Theory suggests that this 
is impossible.

While radioneuclides can be remediated by low energy reactions, they 
would first have to be separated. This separation would make the 
process commercially unfeasible.

There is an lie and deny mentality on the part of the physics 
establishment. While this can be attributed to a conspiracy to 
supress the technology, a more prosaic explanation is a defense of 
the existing paradigm and a desire to protect hot fusion research. 
Hot fusion research is a cash cow for the physics establishment, so 
their defense of it is understandable.

Some low energy nuclear reactions produce the same level of energy 
production as high energy nuclear reactions. This is not the case 
with reactions which are induced by electron clusters.

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Alex Caliostro wrote:

> my friend is a CE who claims most oil is not from dead dinosaurs
>
> he says this paper
>
> http://gasresources.net/AlkaneGenesis.htm
>
> proves it - here is a quote from the abstract
>
> <The high-pressure genesis of petroleum hydrocarbons has been 
> demonstrated using only the solid reagents solid iron oxide, FeO, and 
> marble, CaCO3, 99.9% pure, wet with triple-distilled water.>
>
> my question is shouldn't you be able to test the oil directly to prove 
> its origin with carbon 14
>
> -alex
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's 
> FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
>
No the carbon 14 test will not work with oil because your not testing 
atmospheric carbon. Carbon from marble will seem infinitely old, it will 
have no carbon 14 from the upper atmosphere. Carbon 14 is produced in 
the upper atmosphere when charged particles hit nitrogen atoms. The 
production rate and decay rate should be in equilibrium but aren't; that 
has other dating consequences. Carbon 14 levels can also vary locally 
where volcanoes and earth quakes put large deposits of ancient carbon 12 
from underground and in seabed sediments into the atmosphere. We have 
another problem with shallow oil. Bacteria feeding on the fossil fuels 
can transport and add new carbon 14 to the other wise old oil. They also 
add complex hydrocarbons and amino acids that make tracing the species 
of dead plankton difficult. If the theories of Thomas Gold and others 
are correct then some oil and gas may be non fossil in origin but it 
will not be enough to change peak oil problem.
It's interesting that the linked research paper above does not mention 
Dr Golds earlier work.

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From: Wesley Bruce <wesleybruce iinet.net.au>
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thomas malloy wrote:

> Having read what was posted, I've decided to write a synopsis. I am 
> submitting this to the list for comment.
>
> Access to heavy water has been made more difficult, however if you can 
> demonstrate that you are a legitimate scientist, you can procure it.
>
> There is no experimental evidence that fissile radioneuclides can be 
> produced by low energy nuclear reactions. Theory suggests that this is 
> impossible.
>
> While radioneuclides can be remediated by low energy reactions, they 
> would first have to be separated. This separation would make the 
> process commercially unfeasible.
>
Not true we can solve both the seperation of the liquids and the 
disposal of the solids. I was talking about this tho Stan Gleeson about 
a year before he died. Seperation and transport is not a problem if we 
design the radiation remediation technologies to go to the waste where 
it sits today. All we need is some available nanotech and a few 
membranes. But if I blabed the designs to everyone on the web I'd blow 
my patent chances.  

> There is an lie and deny mentality on the part of the physics 
> establishment. While this can be attributed to a conspiracy to supress 
> the technology, a more prosaic explanation is a defense of the 
> existing paradigm and a desire to protect hot fusion research. Hot 
> fusion research is a cash cow for the physics establishment, so their 
> defense of it is understandable.
>
> Some low energy nuclear reactions produce the same level of energy 
> production as high energy nuclear reactions. This is not the case with 
> reactions which are induced by electron clusters.
>

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In order to account for low energy stripping of deuterons (as low as a few eV) either
there is an approximately  0.1% mass difference between the "normal" 2.0141 AMU deuteron
that requires 2.23 MeV to separate the neutron, or the neutron might
contain the Positronium anion (Electronium). Either way there is
a difference in the binding energy and/or mass defect.

Mass spectrometer type separation (quadrupole?) NMR or what to
separate them?

Frederick
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8
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<HTML style="FONT-SIZE: x-small; FONT-FAMILY: MS Sans Serif"><HEAD>
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<DIV>In order to account for low energy stripping of deuterons (as low as a few eV) either</DIV>
<DIV>there is an approximately&nbsp;&nbsp;0.1% mass difference between the "normal" 2.0141 AMU deuteron</DIV>
<DIV>that requires 2.23 MeV to separate the neutron, or the neutron might</DIV>
<DIV>contain the Positronium anion (Electronium). Either way there is</DIV>
<DIV>a difference in the binding energy and/or mass defect.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Mass spectrometer type separation (quadrupole?)&nbsp;NMR or what to</DIV>
<DIV>separate them?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Frederick</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<P></P></BODY></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 16 04:32:20 2005
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From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk
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Subject: CF Is the mechanism really Nuclear?
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Dear Vo and CF'ers,
I tried to unsubscribe but sent it to the wrong address. Anyway, since I'm
here I have a naive question for CF'ers:

Let's not insult your integrity and the fact that you are saying that nearly
100% of your experiments are reproducible despite unbiased researchers
having difficulties, if you are getting excess enthalpy is it really the
result of nuclear processes?

How do you get some charged moiety over the 10MeV or so barrier to even get
near the nuclear forces (approx fm scale) and get substantial yield? Let's
say you have some yield for hot fusion then this would get multiplied by two
very small factors: a Maxwell-Boltzman correction for the reaction going on
at room temp and a factor related to a Yukawa type potential.

I don't get it.
Remi. 

.......................................
Website
http://luna.bton.ac.uk/~roc1
.......................................

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 16 05:01:14 2005
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From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk
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Subject: Heavy Deuterons & Deuteron Stripping
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Vo,
I've seen to have jumped back in and Fred was already at it.

So you are looking for a non conventional nuclear mechanism. You need
theory. Why won't the establishment entertain what CF theorists put forward?
Is it this stuff really a step too far? I'm sure matter is more stable than
you're making out below.
Remi.

________________________________________
From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On
Behalf Of Frederick Sparber
Sent: 16 September 2005 10:41
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Heavy Deuterons & Deuteron Stripping

In order to account for low energy stripping of deuterons (as low as a few
eV) either
there is an approximately  0.1% mass difference between the "normal" 2.0141
AMU deuteron
that requires 2.23 MeV to separate the neutron, or the neutron might
contain the Positronium anion (Electronium). Either way there is
a difference in the binding energy and/or mass defect.
 
Mass spectrometer type separation (quadrupole?) NMR or what to
separate them?
 
Frederick
 
 
 
 
 
 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 16 05:35:34 2005
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>From: Wesley Bruce

>We have another problem with shallow oil. Bacteria feeding on the fossil 
>fuels can transport and add new carbon 14 to the other wise old oil.

oh, yes - there is even one theory that bacteria could be involved in the 
creation of oil

>It's interesting that the linked research paper above does not mention Dr 
>Golds earlier work.

the reason might be that many think TG (rest his soul) is guilty of 
plagiarism:

http://www.gasresources.net/Plagiarism(Overview).htm

-alex

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Beaty sez:

...

> Imagine the event!  An entire moon hits the atmosphere and 
> breaks up into two or three huge chunks plus lots of rubble,
> into a hundred asteroids, which then roll across the land at
> orbital velocity from horizon to horizon like incandescent
> bowling balls the size of Manhattan.
> 
> William J. Beaty

FWIW,

I concurr.

Perhaps there was an audience - at a discrete distance.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

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brazil imported 85% of its energy in 1978, 10% in 2002, and expects to be 
nearly self sufficient next year

http://www.energybulletin.net/5021.html

here it seems like the us govt tries to make it more difficult to use other 
fuel

http://www.eere.energy.gov/afdc/afv/conversion.html

i think we would all be better off driving under the influence of alcohol 
since my matie in the uk paid $10 for a gal of petrol yesterday

<g>

-alex

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http://www.norwichbulletin.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050916/NEWS01/509160322/1002

http://tinyurl.com/7j2se

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 16 07:25:17 2005
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Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 08:25:42 -0600
From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: CF Is the mechanism really Nuclear?
References: <BE76853CB39E3B47B014207F18386A8F13FE8185 moulsecoomb.bton.ac.uk>
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R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk wrote:

> Dear Vo and CF'ers,
> I tried to unsubscribe but sent it to the wrong address. Anyway, since I'm
> here I have a naive question for CF'ers:
> 
> Let's not insult your integrity and the fact that you are saying that nearly
> 100% of your experiments are reproducible despite unbiased researchers
> having difficulties, if you are getting excess enthalpy is it really the
> result of nuclear processes?

A good question, Remi.  The answer is that reproducibility is not near 
100% when starting from scratch or when attempted by uninformed people. 
Many variables affect the result, many of which are not yet understood. 
  As a result, success is still affected by chance.  However, if the 
variables should combine to produce success, the sample is found to be 
100% reproducible. In addition, some methods are more likely to produce 
success than others.  As for the heat being from a nuclear process, when 
efforts were made to measure both heat and He-4 production, using the 
"standard" techniques for producing the effect, the two measurements 
show the expected relationship. In addition, no other source of the 
energy is consistent with experimental behavior.

> 
> How do you get some charged moiety over the 10MeV or so barrier to even get
> near the nuclear forces (approx fm scale) and get substantial yield? Let's
> say you have some yield for hot fusion then this would get multiplied by two
> very small factors: a Maxwell-Boltzman correction for the reaction going on
> at room temp and a factor related to a Yukawa type potential.

Obviously, a mechanism exists that is not part of normal experience. 
That is why the effect is so hard to produce and requires a novel 
environment.  People need to change their expectations and explore novel 
processes that only occur in a crystalline structure.

Regards,
Ed
> 
> I don't get it.
> Remi. 
> 
> .......................................
> Website
> http://luna.bton.ac.uk/~roc1
> .......................................
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 16 07:42:25 2005
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Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 10:40:43 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Synopsis of the suppression of cold fusion
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This is pretty good. I suggest a few adjustments:


>There is no experimental evidence that fissile radioneuclides can be 
>produced by low energy nuclear reactions.

There is spotty experimental evidence that fissile radioneuclides can be 
produced by LENR [Wolf, Dash], but this work has not been replicated.


>This separation would make the process commercially unfeasible.

I wouldn't know about that, but if the core technology is developed I 
suppose peripheral separation technology will follow.


>There is an lie and deny mentality on the part of the physics establishment.

See also:

http://www.newenergytimes.com/Library/2004BauerH-21stCenturyScience.pdf

I think Bauer goes over the top here but his basic ideas are sound.

The problems with CF are caused by individual people such as Park, and Park 
must be held responsible for his actions, but looking at the bigger picture 
I think Bauer is right, the system has changed and these changes have 
caused problems. There have always been irresponsible and unethical people 
in science, just as there are in every profession, but systemic changes 
have enhanced their ability to make trouble.

- Jed


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Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 11:06:33 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Some experts believe global warming is causing stronger
  hurricanes
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Researchers at Georgia Tech (rah, rah!) believe that global warming is 
causing stronger hurricanes. See:

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn8002

Other articles have pointed out that other factors are at work, such as a 
natural 20-year cycle, but these factors are reportedly not sufficient to 
explain the increase in destructive hurricanes. As I mentioned, the 
Japanese meteorological agency researchers recently claimed that the 
overall worldwide energy released from hurricanes has increased, that the 
force and duration of hurricanes striking Japan has increased (this is 
indisputable), and that global warming is a significant contributing factor.

Of course there are legitimate atmospheric researchers who disagree with 
these findings. This is not a settled issue.

I was amused to note that journalist and self-appointed atmospheric expert 
researcher Charles Krauthammer dismissed the very idea of that global 
warming may have contributed to the ferocity of the Katrina hurricane. I 
would like to ask him what he based to that claim on, and how many papers 
in atmospheric science he has read. After years of dealing with CF, I am 
heartily sick of instant experts who pontificate about research they know 
nothing about. Of course I know nothing about atmospheric science, but I 
admit it! I point out that there is legitimate debate, and the issue is not 
settled. And I do not categorically declare that I am sure one side or the 
other is correct.

The problem is, by the time the debate is fully settled it may be too late 
to do stave off a catastrophe. We must act on the basis of incomplete and 
unsure information.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 16 08:08:02 2005
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Subject: Discount Fusion Reactors
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Do those clever folks at eBay know something we don't?
I noticed this ad when looking over the Vort posts on
mail-archive.com.

Discount Fusion 
Reactors

New & used Fusion
Reactors. aff Check out
the huge selection now!

www.eBay.com

Naturally, I clicked on the link to see what would come
up, but alas there was nothing. Maybe they have a time
machine, God knows they have enough money for one :)

I was reminded that we all should keep plugging away with
the hope that this ad will come true.

M.




_______________________________________________
Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
The most personalized portal on the Web!


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 16 08:14:36 2005
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From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: RE: CF Is the mechanism really Nuclear?
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 16:13:41 +0100
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Ed wrote:

>> 
>> How do you get some charged moiety over the 10MeV or so barrier to even
>> get
>> near the nuclear forces (approx fm scale) and get substantial yield?
>> Let's
>> say you have some yield for hot fusion then this would get multiplied by
>> two
>> very small factors: a Maxwell-Boltzman correction for the reaction going
>> on
>> at room temp and a factor related to a Yukawa type potential.

>Obviously, a mechanism exists that is not part of normal experience. 
>That is why the effect is so hard to produce and requires a novel 
>environment.  People need to change their expectations and explore novel 
>processes that only occur in a crystalline structure.

>Regards,
>Ed

Sorry I'm not knocking, I'm trying to understand. I'd like to know how it is
possible to so skew the normal equilibrium distribution of energies in a
lattice so as to produce enough 10MeV protons or deuterons. Or if you are
using neutrons, how are these neutrons produced (Fred's post)?

I get the feeling that if you are observing excess energy that calling it
fusion makes it sound sexy and it could be working to your detriment. 

Take a look at non-conventional hot fusion: Farnsworth Fusor or even
sono-luminescence they seem to be getting the numbers right - in short there
is a *mechanism*.

To me, until you have regular repeatable experiments (properly peered
reviewed) and some putative mechanism, how can you be demanding Manhattan
Project style funding or $15million+ that Jed seems to think is ok. Yes
empirical science but you must have some kind of theory to frame hypothesis
and move the study along (that's the method!).

Now people exist on a spectrum from true believer to pathological sceptic to
form a voting quorum. The most rewarding ones are those who were dead
against you but change. Now how are you going to bring these people on board
with what - experiments that only TBs can seem to get right and no mechanism
to even discuss or communicate your ideas?

How are you going to whet peoples appetite with papers and graphs but no
theory to match it to, it's all hearsay and trust? It doesn't scan. I'm
telling you that young graduates and research fellows are extremely
conservative not wishing to damage their careers. How does one read a paper,
'mmmh that seems correct, scan the theory, have a look at the experimental
setup, mmmh, give it a go'.

You haven't got enough in my opinion to lobby at the highest levels as you
do. The three experts Jed mentioned ('why should they be humble') have
plummeted in status too.
Regards,
Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 16 08:16:41 2005
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Subject: Re: totally OT: a fallen moon
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 11:23:40 -0400
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Could this be proof that Velikovsky was right after all?  Wouldn't a close
encounter with earth leave the same foot print?  It seems clear that Mars
once had an atmosphere and water.  With Earth being much more massive than
Mars, wouldn't the Earth draw off the atmosphere and perhaps most of the
water during a near miss.  The violent transfer would definitly leave some
kind of track on the Martian surface.  A third Martian moon may also have
been caught up in the process.

Jeff


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "William Beaty" <billb eskimo.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2005 10:43 PM
Subject: totally OT: a fallen moon


>
>
> As a kid in the 1960s I remember staring at the world map in the classroom
> and *knowing* that the Americas fit with Europe and Africa like a jigsaw
> puzzle.  In 1965 this was geological heresy, but the grade school kids
> like me were seeing something real, something that professional geologists
> denied.
>
> So now I'm looking at the map of Mars over my desk, and I know enough to
> take my first impressions seriously.  The Valles Marineris
> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valles_Marineris) is too straight.  WAY too
> straight.  Well, actually it's curved in a sine wave that extends as a
> discoloration across more than half the planet.  (World maps with sine
> waves drawn on them are plots of orbiting spacecraft, where the angled
> circular orbit is "unrolled" to form a wave.)  Also, Valles Marineris is
> aligned with the Martian equator, so it's also aligned with the plane of
> the ecliptic where moon orbits lie.  Maybe not a coincidence.  Also,
> Valles Marineris has many widely separate parallel features which are also
> perfectly straight.  Also there are all kinds of crater chains
> (http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/moc_atlas/mc18.jpg) parallel to the
> valley all around the same region.
>
> Yet explanations of this valley talk about a cracking crust.  Perhaps.
> But I don't believe it.  There are linear gouges and broad lines of
> discoloration WAY downstream of the main valley.  I predict that within a
> decade or two the expert opinion will shift: Valles Marineris is an
> astrobleme, it was carved out by a moon that fell from orbit.  The Valles
> region doesn't extend all the way around the planet, so it probably wasn't
> caused by a planetary ring.  It's composed of several large parallel
> tracks, so the moon probably exploded and the cloud started expanding
> before it came down.
>
> Imagine the event!  An entire moon hits the atmosphere and breaks up into
> two or three huge chunks plus lots of rubble, into a hundred asteroids,
> which then roll across the land at orbital velocity from horizon to
> horizon like incandescent bowling balls the size of Manhattan.
>
>
>
> (((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
> William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
> billb at amasci com                         http://amasci.com
> EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair
> Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci
>
>


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From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk
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Subject: RE: Some experts believe global warming is causing stronger hurri
	canes
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> The problem is, by the time the debate is fully settled it may be too late

> to do stave off a catastrophe. We must act on the basis of incomplete and 
> unsure information.

> - Jed


And on the flip side, look what world recessions do - 1929-1945.

Tax this, tax that, limit this limit that, less air travel, less weekend
breaks.

Is it Lord Palomo (?) of the Green party he believes in all that noble
savage nonsense.
R.

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From: OrionWorks <orionworks charter.net>
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Remi sez:

...

> How are you going to whet peoples appetite with papers and 
> graphs but no theory to match it to, it's all hearsay and
> trust? 

It is my understanding that nobody has yet come up with a definitive theory to explain how superconductivity works. 

That hasn't stopped a plethora of industries from capitalizing quite handsomely on the phenomenon.

All one really needs is consistent reproducibility of the phenomenon to the point that it can be commercially exploited.

While certainly desirable, a definitive theory can come later.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 16 08:40:52 2005
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From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk
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Subject: RE: CF Is the mechanism really Nuclear?
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 16:39:12 +0100
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Ed wrote:

>Obviously, a mechanism exists that is not part of normal experience. 
>That is why the effect is so hard to produce and requires a novel 
>environment.  People need to change their expectations and explore novel 
>processes that only occur in a crystalline structure.

OK so if you have a deuteron-ated lattice is it possible to prove that the
energy gets carried off preferentially by phonons and that these phonons
then couple preferentially to the deuterons rather than vaporise your
lattice? I might have a look in a solid state textbook this weekend because
if the phonons have small mass and a wavelength of a certain size, it might
be possible for them to scatter preferentially with D ions in the lattice
rather than Pd or e-.

The starting spark for the reaction would be pure random chance to then
initiate a kind of chain reaction.

Might not some measurement be possible to test such a conjecture?
R.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 16 08:41:48 2005
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I asked:

>> What is unconventional about the two "plate" components of a charged capacitor
>> being attracted to each other?
 
Harry Reeder replied:

>The force of attraction is apparently not equal and opposite.
>If the force were equal and opposite it would not lift off the ground.

Naudin is very good at replicating an effect--but he isn't good at, or neglects to bother to do, rigorously contolling his experiments.  That is, he shows lift, but the two charged plates are not just interacting with each other--they are interacting with everything else around them, too, including the wires supplying the potential to the two plates.  When you're at high voltages, you cannot neglect the exterior circuit, nor the air, nor the walls of the container, etc. etc.

It doesn't matter if the air around it does or does not ionize.  If I rub a balloon on my head and put it close enough to the ceiling, it will rise and stick there.  It doesn't need to ionize air to do that.  Polarization matters.

Let me be clear--though I am confident that the Lifters do nothing at all beyond ordinary physics, I can't be absolutely certain of that.  What I am certain of is that I have yet to see an experiment that adequately takes into account ALL of the relevant characteristics of the "lifter system", and the entire system is a very complicated thing.  

That having been said, Lifters are pretty cool regardless of how they work.

Jeffery D. Kooistra


 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 16 08:42:58 2005
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From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk
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Subject: RE: CF Is the mechanism really Nuclear?
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Steven,
Yes but the super-conduction people were able to make substantial progress
with minimal theory.

It might be me, but if I have an inkling of what is going on I can design
experiments. Very much a method person me.
Remi.

-----Original Message-----
From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On
Behalf Of OrionWorks
Sent: 16 September 2005 16:34
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Cc: orionworks charter.net
Subject: RE: CF Is the mechanism really Nuclear?

Remi sez:

...

> How are you going to whet peoples appetite with papers and 
> graphs but no theory to match it to, it's all hearsay and
> trust? 

It is my understanding that nobody has yet come up with a definitive theory
to explain how superconductivity works. 

That hasn't stopped a plethora of industries from capitalizing quite
handsomely on the phenomenon.

All one really needs is consistent reproducibility of the phenomenon to the
point that it can be commercially exploited.

While certainly desirable, a definitive theory can come later.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 16 08:45:13 2005
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>From: Jed Rothwell

>The problem is, by the time the debate is fully settled it may be too late 
>to do stave off a catastrophe.

it is already too late

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/science_technology/article312997.ece

-alex

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 16 08:48:39 2005
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Subject: Re: Some experts believe global warming is causing stronger  hurricanes
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> I was amused to note that journalist and self-appointed atmospheric expert 
> researcher Charles Krauthammer dismissed the very idea of that global 
> warming may have contributed to the ferocity of the Katrina hurricane. I 
> would like to ask him what he based to that claim on, and how many papers 
> in atmospheric science he has read....

But it should be dismissed. Non-verifiable assertions should not be 
considered. They are not credible if there's no evidence to back them up. 
One does not have to disprove the arbitrary assertion.

Sincerely,

Craig Haynie (Houston)


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 16 08:54:02 2005
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Subject: RE: Some experts believe global warming is causing stronger
  hurri canes
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R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk wrote:

> > The problem is, by the time the debate is fully settled it may be too late
>
> > to do stave off a catastrophe. We must act on the basis of incomplete and
> > unsure information.
>
>And on the flip side, look what world recessions do - 1929-1945.
>
>Tax this, tax that, limit this limit that, less air travel, less weekend
>breaks.

I am not sure I understand what this means. I gather Remi is saying that 
technological fixes to avoid global warming will require high taxes and may 
cause a worldwide recession. Neither of these statements is in evidence, as 
far as I know.

Nearly all of the steps needed to reduce global warming would be:

1. Beneficial and desirable in many other ways. For one thing, they would 
reduce dangerous dependency on unstable and oppressive regimes, and they 
would reduce the funding for terrorism. Since the U.S. is presently engaged 
in war that is costing many lives and $1 billion a day, this is a major 
concern to us. Frankly, I cannot imagine how anyone in the U.S. or Europe 
would question the wisdom of reducing oil dependency with radical steps. If 
I were the president, I would ask for a war tax of $2 per gallon to pay for 
the war, or gasoline rationing. In January 1942, the government closed down 
all automobile manufacturing for the duration of the war. War is serious 
business, and that is the kind of thing you must do if you intend to win. 
If we are not going to take serious steps, and make sacrifices, we might as 
well surrender now and apologize to Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein.

2. Most of these steps would pay for themselves, and some would be 
fantastically profitable. A plug-in hybrid automobile, for example, not 
only reduces global warming by a huge margin it also costs 5 to 10 times 
less to operate.

3. All proposed steps can and should be implemented by the private sector, 
and paid for by individual people in order to enhance their lifestyles and 
reduce waste and expenses.

4. These steps are supported by both conservatives and liberals in the US, 
Japan and Europe. As I pointed out the other day, Schultz and Woolsey 
published a paper promoting radical changes in the automobile industry, and 
the use of plug-in hybrids. Schultz is at the Hoover Institute, a very 
conservative institution.


 > Is it Lord Palomo (?) of the Green party

As I said, this is not a conservative versus liberal issue. It shouldn't 
be, anyway.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 16 08:54:04 2005
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Subject: RE: CF Is the mechanism really Nuclear?
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You have to show that unlike other nuclear processes occurring in lattices
(say fission) that there is a preference to giving up the energy as phonons
at a certain frequency rather than photons. This might be possible if there
is a resonance effect.

By this resonance effect, talk of the M-B distribution of energy in the
lattice would no longer be relevant. You'd get a sharp peak in the
distribution and conveniently this would match or near match the coupling to
the D ions. 

By developing such a theory it might explain the hit and miss of the
experiments. If the initiation of the chain reaction is random but then the
coupling of the energy produced to the means to sustain the reaction is not
quite high enough, it dies. This could result from impurities in the lattice
and crystalline defects.

-----Original Message-----
From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On
Behalf Of R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk
Sent: 16 September 2005 16:39
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: RE: CF Is the mechanism really Nuclear?

Ed wrote:

>Obviously, a mechanism exists that is not part of normal experience. 
>That is why the effect is so hard to produce and requires a novel 
>environment.  People need to change their expectations and explore novel 
>processes that only occur in a crystalline structure.

OK so if you have a deuteron-ated lattice is it possible to prove that the
energy gets carried off preferentially by phonons and that these phonons
then couple preferentially to the deuterons rather than vaporise your
lattice? I might have a look in a solid state textbook this weekend because
if the phonons have small mass and a wavelength of a certain size, it might
be possible for them to scatter preferentially with D ions in the lattice
rather than Pd or e-.

The starting spark for the reaction would be pure random chance to then
initiate a kind of chain reaction.

Might not some measurement be possible to test such a conjecture?
R.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 16 08:57:03 2005
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From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk
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Subject: RE: Some experts believe global warming is causing stronger  hurr
	icanes
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Yes! Yed said the same as regards to his background in biology and his
dismissal of Creationism - if you can't design an experiment to test the
conjecture/hypothesis, you can't move things along.

Foisted on his own petard? 

-----Original Message-----
From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On
Behalf Of Craig Haynie
Sent: 16 September 2005 16:47
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Some experts believe global warming is causing stronger
hurricanes

> I was amused to note that journalist and self-appointed atmospheric expert

> researcher Charles Krauthammer dismissed the very idea of that global 
> warming may have contributed to the ferocity of the Katrina hurricane. I 
> would like to ask him what he based to that claim on, and how many papers 
> in atmospheric science he has read....

But it should be dismissed. Non-verifiable assertions should not be 
considered. They are not credible if there's no evidence to back them up. 
One does not have to disprove the arbitrary assertion.

Sincerely,

Craig Haynie (Houston)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 16 08:59:27 2005
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From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk
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Subject: RE: Some experts believe global warming is causing stronger hurri
	 canes
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Very authoritarian and patrician.

You know the fable about the contest between the sun and the wind to see if
they could get a man to remove his coat?

-----Original Message-----
From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On
Behalf Of Jed Rothwell
Sent: 16 September 2005 16:53
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: RE: Some experts believe global warming is causing stronger hurri
canes

R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk wrote:

> > The problem is, by the time the debate is fully settled it may be too
late
>
> > to do stave off a catastrophe. We must act on the basis of incomplete
and
> > unsure information.
>
>And on the flip side, look what world recessions do - 1929-1945.
>
>Tax this, tax that, limit this limit that, less air travel, less weekend
>breaks.

I am not sure I understand what this means. I gather Remi is saying that 
technological fixes to avoid global warming will require high taxes and may 
cause a worldwide recession. Neither of these statements is in evidence, as 
far as I know.

Nearly all of the steps needed to reduce global warming would be:

1. Beneficial and desirable in many other ways. For one thing, they would 
reduce dangerous dependency on unstable and oppressive regimes, and they 
would reduce the funding for terrorism. Since the U.S. is presently engaged 
in war that is costing many lives and $1 billion a day, this is a major 
concern to us. Frankly, I cannot imagine how anyone in the U.S. or Europe 
would question the wisdom of reducing oil dependency with radical steps. If 
I were the president, I would ask for a war tax of $2 per gallon to pay for 
the war, or gasoline rationing. In January 1942, the government closed down 
all automobile manufacturing for the duration of the war. War is serious 
business, and that is the kind of thing you must do if you intend to win. 
If we are not going to take serious steps, and make sacrifices, we might as 
well surrender now and apologize to Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein.

2. Most of these steps would pay for themselves, and some would be 
fantastically profitable. A plug-in hybrid automobile, for example, not 
only reduces global warming by a huge margin it also costs 5 to 10 times 
less to operate.

3. All proposed steps can and should be implemented by the private sector, 
and paid for by individual people in order to enhance their lifestyles and 
reduce waste and expenses.

4. These steps are supported by both conservatives and liberals in the US, 
Japan and Europe. As I pointed out the other day, Schultz and Woolsey 
published a paper promoting radical changes in the automobile industry, and 
the use of plug-in hybrids. Schultz is at the Hoover Institute, a very 
conservative institution.


 > Is it Lord Palomo (?) of the Green party

As I said, this is not a conservative versus liberal issue. It shouldn't 
be, anyway.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 16 09:12:09 2005
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Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 12:06:13 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: Some experts believe global warming is causing stronger
  hurricanes
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Alex Caliostro wrote:

>>The problem is, by the time the debate is fully settled it may be too 
>>late to do stave off a catastrophe.
>
>it is already too late
>
>http://news.independent.co.uk/world/science_technology/article312997.ece

It is NEVER too late. If we -- mankind as a whole -- gets serious about 
this, we can devise ways to fix just about any problem short of the sun 
going supernova.

As I have pointed out previously, we could build space elevators and deploy 
gigantic Mylar shields to reduce the solar radiation that reaches the 
ground. We could build gigantic CF-powered factories that extract carbon 
from the air, or re-freeze billions of tons of ice. There are any number of 
ways we can fix problems, if only we put our minds to it and unite. It may 
take an effort on the scale of WWII, or ten times that, but it can be done.

Repeat after me: it is NEVER TOO LATE. There is ALWAYS hope. If the first 
solution fails there is always another solution, and another, and another. 
We are a hardy and clever species, capable of amazing accomplishments. We 
have not "come this far through the evolutionary furnace" (as Sam Florman 
puts it) to be defeated easily.

We may yet destroy ourselves with global warming or nuclear weapons, but it 
is not inevitable.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 16 09:27:38 2005
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Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 12:26:06 -0500
From: Harry Veeder <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: Disposable chemical pocket warmer
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Speaking of pocket warmers, I once made something similar accidentally.
While I was siting in front of the computer, an AA battery and coins in my
trouser pocket arranged themselves into an electric circuit with sensible
ohmic resistance. ;-)

Harry

 

 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 16 09:37:02 2005
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Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 12:34:55 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: CF Is the mechanism really Nuclear?
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At 10:25 AM 9/16/2005, Ed Storms wrote:

>R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk wrote:
>>Dear Vo and CF'ers,
>>I tried to unsubscribe but sent it to the wrong address. Anyway, since I'm
>>here I have a naive question for CF'ers:
>>Let's not insult your integrity and the fact that you are saying that nearly
>>100% of your experiments are reproducible despite unbiased researchers
>>having difficulties, if you are getting excess enthalpy is it really the
>>result of nuclear processes?
>
>A good question, Remi.  The answer is that reproducibility is not near 
>100% when starting from scratch or when attempted by uninformed people. 
>Many variables affect the result, many of which are not yet understood.


   Actually, many variables are quite well understood; and better 
engineering of cold fusion systems
   remains the pathway to improved reproducibility.


>   As a result, success is still affected by chance.  However, if the 
> variables should combine to produce success, the sample is found to be 
> 100% reproducible.


This is primitive nonsense.
Each cold fusion sample has a maximum activity at the center of its optimal 
operating point manifold.
That operating point manifold changes with loading (increases), with 
dislocation development
  and sample fracture (as further examples).

  As Arthur C. Clarke has pointed out for other well-engineered systems, 
those who do not understand the role of
sample activity and system engineering in cold fusion necessarily see their 
results only in terms of magic, luck or chance.


      Dr. Mitchell Swartz



Refs:
Swartz, M, "Generality of Optimal Operating Point Behavior in Low Energy 
Nuclear Systems", Journal of New Energy, 4, 2, 218-228 (1999);
Swartz, M, "Optimal Operating Point Characteristics of Nickel Light Water 
Experiments", Proceedings of ICCF-7 (1998);
Swartz, M, "Improved Electrolytic Reactor Performance Using pi-Notch System 
Operation and Gold Anodes, Transactions of the American Nuclear Association,
    Nashville, Tenn Meeting, (ISSN:0003-018X publisher LaGrange, Ill) 78, 
84-85 (1998);
Swartz, M.R., Consistency of the biphasic nature of excess enthalpy in 
solid-state anomalous phenomena with the quasi-one-dimensional model of
    isotope loading into a material. Fusion Technology, 1997. 31: p. 63.
Swartz. M., G. Verner, "Excess Heat from Low Electrical Conductivity Heavy 
Water Spiral-Wound Pd/D2O/Pt and Pd/D2O-PdCl2/Pt Devices", Proc.ICCF-10 (2004).


      "Assumptions are a transparent grid through which we view the universe,
       sometimes deluding ourselves that the grid is that universe"  - 
Cogitor Eklo


========================================================


   Cold Fusion Times    http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html
     The journal of the scientific aspects of loading isotopic fuels into 
materials ISSN# 1072-2874

   JET Thermal Products   http://world.std.com/~mica/jet.html
      Working for Safe and More Efficient Heat Products to Serve You




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 16 09:37:10 2005
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From: OrionWorks <orionworks charter.net>
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Subject: RE: CF Is the mechanism really Nuclear?
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>Remi sez:
> 
> Steven,
> Yes but the super-conduction people were able to make 
> substantial progress with minimal theory.

What's your point? It's still the same issue. The only difference is that those working in superconductivity have had an easier time of being able to reproduce a phenomenon that does not yet possess a definitive theory explaining why it behaves the way it does.

Let me rephrase. What CF really needs to be successful is consistent reproducibility of the phenomenon to the point that it can be exploited commercially. Unfortunately, as you also know, reproducibility of the CF phenomenon, to date, has been more problematical to the point that there remains serious disagreements among researchers over the legitimacy of this illusive phenomenon

> It might be me, but if I have an inkling of what is going on 
> I can design experiments. Very much a method person me.
> Remi.

Heaven knows, we need more "method" people! ;-) I acknowledge your point that having an "inkling of what is going on" would be a preferable place to start from.

I'm only suggesting that having no working theory (at least for the moment) should not prevent one from pursuing greater and more consistent reproducibility particularly if one has already found ways to create it on a consistent basis.

For example, Thomas Edison was great at throwing in the kitchen sink (I speak figuratively here!) as he pursued better reproducibility of a phenomenon with the ultimate goal of commercial exploitation. I bet Edison often had no inkling as to the theory behind why something worked the way it did. 


Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 16 09:41:14 2005
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Subject: RE: Some experts believe global warming is causing stronger  hurricanes
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Jed wrote:

> The problem is, by the time the debate
> is fully settled it may be too late 
> to do stave off a catastrophe. We must 
> act on the basis of incomplete and
> unsure information.

But Jed, isn't that exact logic W used
to invade Iraq? (The devil made me write
this. I have no control over my fingers.)

M.


_______________________________________________
Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
The most personalized portal on the Web!


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Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 12:42:33 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: Some experts believe global warming is causing stronger 
  hurr icanes
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R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk wrote:

>Yes! Jed said the same as regards to his background in biology and his
>dismissal of Creationism - if you can't design an experiment to test the
>conjecture/hypothesis, you can't move things along.

There are many observational sciences, such as astronomy, in which 
experiments cannot be devised, even in principle. Cosmologists will never 
re-create the Big Bang, we hope. Yet no one claims you cannot move things 
along in astronomy or cosmology. Conjectures and hypotheses in atmospheric 
science can be tested with computer models, especially by running old data 
through the models, for which the outcome is known. Everyone can see that 
atmospheric researchers has made enormous strides in the last 40 years. 
Weather reports have gone from being a joke to being remarkably dependable. 
They are even reliable five or ten days in advance, which is much farther 
in the future than one could predict merely by watching the clouds in 
satellite photos.


If I understand the thread correctly, Craig Haynie wrote that global 
warming ". . . should be dismissed. Non-verifiable assertions should not be 
considered. They are not credible if there's no evidence to back them up." 
(He is talking about global warming, right?)

This is exactly the kind of attitude that opponents of cold fusion often 
have. They claim that experts electrochemistry such as Bockris have no 
evidence and no clear method of proving their assertions about excess heat 
or tritium. I find this intensely annoying. I cited a paper published by 
experts at Georgia Tech, to be published in Science magazine. That's a 
serious, legitimate source of information. If Craig Haynie holds another 
view he should cite his sources, and not make unsupported assertions.

I expect the authors at Georgia Tech would agree this paper may be flawed, 
or incorrect. I am sure they are not satisfied with every aspect of it, and 
they feel that more research is called for -- more research is always 
called for. Yes, other legitimate researchers disagree with these findings. 
But no one should simply dismiss this as "not credible" and without 
evidence! You do NOT tell a group of professional researchers who have 
devoted years of their lives that they do not have a clue what they are 
talking about. That is exactly what the opponents of cold fusion do. It is 
ignorant and wrong.

If cold fusion proves anything, it proves that the experts who do the work 
in the lab are right, and those who second-guess them, jump to conclusions, 
and dismiss peer-reviewed results are wrong. The history of cold fusion 
affirms that peer review and the other traditional, conventional methods of 
science still work reliably. The people who oppose cold fusion imagine 
themselves to be upholding convention and defending the traditions, but it 
is just the opposite. They are the ones who are trashing the standards.

I do not stand in awe of professional scientists. I do not say we must 
accept their judgment implicitly because they know more than we do. Of 
course they are wrong sometimes! Any expert can be wrong: a doctor, a 
historian, a banker. But people who dismiss research out of hand without 
citing sources are not right, and not even wrong. They don't count.

- Jed


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From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: RE: CF Is the mechanism really Nuclear?
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 17:46:53 +0100
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Cheers Dr Swartz but:-

>   As a result, success is still affected by chance.  However, if the 
> variables should combine to produce success, the sample is found to be 
> 100% reproducible.

Came from somebody else's post not mine.

As regards to Steven I guess the difference between an Edison and a Landau
is the difference between an Armstrong and a Mozart. Most mortals fall in
between.

Come on, with no other progress apart from random experimentation (99%
perspiration) some theory is going to get you in the ball park and knowing
what parameters to alter. I guess a researcher doing a literature survey
would come across Dr Swartz' work below.

Remi.


  As Arthur C. Clarke has pointed out for other well-engineered systems, 
those who do not understand the role of
sample activity and system engineering in cold fusion necessarily see their 
results only in terms of magic, luck or chance.


      Dr. Mitchell Swartz

Refs:
Swartz, M, "Generality of Optimal Operating Point Behavior in Low Energy 
Nuclear Systems", Journal of New Energy, 4, 2, 218-228 (1999);
Swartz, M, "Optimal Operating Point Characteristics of Nickel Light Water 
Experiments", Proceedings of ICCF-7 (1998);
Swartz, M, "Improved Electrolytic Reactor Performance Using pi-Notch System 
Operation and Gold Anodes, Transactions of the American Nuclear Association,
    Nashville, Tenn Meeting, (ISSN:0003-018X publisher LaGrange, Ill) 78, 
84-85 (1998);
Swartz, M.R., Consistency of the biphasic nature of excess enthalpy in 
solid-state anomalous phenomena with the quasi-one-dimensional model of
    isotope loading into a material. Fusion Technology, 1997. 31: p. 63.
Swartz. M., G. Verner, "Excess Heat from Low Electrical Conductivity Heavy 
Water Spiral-Wound Pd/D2O/Pt and Pd/D2O-PdCl2/Pt Devices", Proc.ICCF-10
(2004).


      "Assumptions are a transparent grid through which we view the
universe,
       sometimes deluding ourselves that the grid is that universe"  - 
Cogitor Eklo


========================================================


   Cold Fusion Times    http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html
     The journal of the scientific aspects of loading isotopic fuels into 
materials ISSN# 1072-2874

   JET Thermal Products   http://world.std.com/~mica/jet.html
      Working for Safe and More Efficient Heat Products to Serve You



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 16 09:49:48 2005
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On Thu, 15 Sep 2005, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> By the way, many fringe inventors have the impression that a device must
> produce thousands of Watts before it is practical. This is incorrect. There
> are many commercial uses for a 10 to 100 Watt device. Even a 10 W heater
> would be useful for some niche applications, such as keeping equipment warm
> in the Arctic.

How about milliwatts and microwatts.  Isn't Eveready/Duracell/Rayovac/Panasonic
a billion-dollar industry?  A small "fuel cell" based on CF would wipe it
out.  I'm suprised that the conspiracy theorists haven't given up with the
oil company thing, and instead taken up the topic of paid assassinations
of OU inventors by a secret consortium of battery companies.

:)




(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb at amasci com                         http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair
Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci

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Subject: Re: Heavy Deuterons & Deuteron Stripping
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At the risk of being drawn and quartered I calculate that the Helium (or Tritium)  produced
by fusion of two "defective" Deuterons will have a mass about 0.6% greater than
the 4.00260 AMU of regular Helium or the 3.01605 AMU of Tritium or 3.01602 AMU He3. Thus the expected energy release (based on hot fusion) could be reduced by orders of magnitude.

Can these be sorted, if they exist?

I wrote:
>
> In order to account for low energy stripping of deuterons (as low as a few eV) either
> there is an approximately  0.1% mass difference between the "normal" 2.0141 AMU deuteron
> that requires 2.23 MeV to separate the neutron, or the neutron might
> contain the Positronium anion (Ps-)  (Electronium). Either way there is
> a difference in the binding energy and/or mass defect.
> 
> Mass spectrometer type separation (quadrupole?) NMR or what, to
> separate them?
> 
Frederick
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8
Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

<HTML style="FONT-SIZE: x-small; FONT-FAMILY: MS Sans Serif"><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=windows-1251">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV>At the risk of being drawn and quartered I calculate that the Helium (or&nbsp;Tritium) &nbsp;produced</DIV>
<DIV>by fusion of two "defective" Deuterons will have a mass about 0.6% greater than</DIV>
<DIV>the 4.00260 AMU of regular Helium or the 3.01605 AMU of Tritium or 3.01602 AMU He3. Thus the expected energy release (based on hot fusion) could be reduced by orders of magnitude.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Can these be sorted, if they exist?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>I wrote:</DIV>
<DIV>&gt;</DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>&gt; In order to account for low energy stripping of deuterons (as low as a few eV) either</DIV>
<DIV>&gt; there is an approximately&nbsp;&nbsp;0.1% mass difference between the "normal" 2.0141 AMU deuteron</DIV>
<DIV>&gt; that requires 2.23 MeV to separate the neutron, or the neutron might</DIV>
<DIV>&gt; contain the Positronium anion (Ps-)&nbsp; (Electronium). Either way there is</DIV>
<DIV>&gt; a difference in the binding energy and/or mass defect.</DIV>
<DIV>&gt; </DIV>
<DIV>&gt; Mass spectrometer type separation (quadrupole?)&nbsp;NMR or what, to</DIV>
<DIV>&gt; separate them?</DIV>
<DIV>&gt; </DIV>
<DIV>Frederick</DIV></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<P></P></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8--


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 16 09:51:36 2005
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From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk
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Jed in a nutshell, Carl Sagan: "Extraordinary claims, extraordinary
evidence".

I've got to go and may join in tomorrow. I just want to go out, eat, watch a
film and spy on the ladies.
Remi.

-----Original Message-----
From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On
Behalf Of Jed Rothwell
Sent: 16 September 2005 17:43
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: RE: Some experts believe global warming is causing stronger hurr
icanes

R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk wrote:

>Yes! Jed said the same as regards to his background in biology and his
>dismissal of Creationism - if you can't design an experiment to test the
>conjecture/hypothesis, you can't move things along.

There are many observational sciences, such as astronomy, in which 
experiments cannot be devised, even in principle. Cosmologists will never 
re-create the Big Bang, we hope. Yet no one claims you cannot move things 
along in astronomy or cosmology. Conjectures and hypotheses in atmospheric 
science can be tested with computer models, especially by running old data 
through the models, for which the outcome is known. Everyone can see that 
atmospheric researchers has made enormous strides in the last 40 years. 
Weather reports have gone from being a joke to being remarkably dependable. 
They are even reliable five or ten days in advance, which is much farther 
in the future than one could predict merely by watching the clouds in 
satellite photos.


If I understand the thread correctly, Craig Haynie wrote that global 
warming ". . . should be dismissed. Non-verifiable assertions should not be 
considered. They are not credible if there's no evidence to back them up." 
(He is talking about global warming, right?)

This is exactly the kind of attitude that opponents of cold fusion often 
have. They claim that experts electrochemistry such as Bockris have no 
evidence and no clear method of proving their assertions about excess heat 
or tritium. I find this intensely annoying. I cited a paper published by 
experts at Georgia Tech, to be published in Science magazine. That's a 
serious, legitimate source of information. If Craig Haynie holds another 
view he should cite his sources, and not make unsupported assertions.

I expect the authors at Georgia Tech would agree this paper may be flawed, 
or incorrect. I am sure they are not satisfied with every aspect of it, and 
they feel that more research is called for -- more research is always 
called for. Yes, other legitimate researchers disagree with these findings. 
But no one should simply dismiss this as "not credible" and without 
evidence! You do NOT tell a group of professional researchers who have 
devoted years of their lives that they do not have a clue what they are 
talking about. That is exactly what the opponents of cold fusion do. It is 
ignorant and wrong.

If cold fusion proves anything, it proves that the experts who do the work 
in the lab are right, and those who second-guess them, jump to conclusions, 
and dismiss peer-reviewed results are wrong. The history of cold fusion 
affirms that peer review and the other traditional, conventional methods of 
science still work reliably. The people who oppose cold fusion imagine 
themselves to be upholding convention and defending the traditions, but it 
is just the opposite. They are the ones who are trashing the standards.

I do not stand in awe of professional scientists. I do not say we must 
accept their judgment implicitly because they know more than we do. Of 
course they are wrong sometimes! Any expert can be wrong: a doctor, a 
historian, a banker. But people who dismiss research out of hand without 
citing sources are not right, and not even wrong. They don't count.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 16 09:52:15 2005
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Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 02:49:26 +1000
From: Wesley Bruce <wesleybruce iinet.net.au>
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Alex Caliostro wrote:

>
>
>
>> From: Wesley Bruce
>
>
>> We have another problem with shallow oil. Bacteria feeding on the 
>> fossil fuels can transport and add new carbon 14 to the other wise 
>> old oil.
>
>
> oh, yes - there is even one theory that bacteria could be involved in 
> the creation of oil
>
>> It's interesting that the linked research paper above does not 
>> mention Dr Golds earlier work.
>
>
> the reason might be that many think TG (rest his soul) is guilty of 
> plagiarism:
>
> http://www.gasresources.net/Plagiarism(Overview).htm
>
Dead link above. Do you have an alternative? Is it a typo?

> -alex
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! 
> http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
>

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From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: RE: CF Is the mechanism really Nuclear?
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At 11:53 AM 9/16/2005, R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk wrote:
>You have to show that unlike other nuclear processes occurring in lattices
>(say fission) that there is a preference to giving up the energy as phonons
>at a certain frequency rather than photons. This might be possible if there
>is a resonance effect.
>
>By this resonance effect, talk of the M-B distribution of energy in the
>lattice would no longer be relevant. You'd get a sharp peak in the
>distribution and conveniently this would match or near match the coupling to
>the D ions.
>
>By developing such a theory it might explain the hit and miss of the
>experiments. If the initiation of the chain reaction is random but then the
>coupling of the energy produced to the means to sustain the reaction is not
>quite high enough, it dies. This could result from impurities in the lattice
>and crystalline defects.


   You might consider checking out the following reference which addresses 
your points
(and also addresses the criticism of neutrons and the "special relativity" 
arguments
which are not well-based, but are usually made by confusing E with delta-E.)
Swartz, M.,  "Phusons in Nuclear Reactions in Solids", Fusion Technology, 
31, 228-236 (1997).

   Coupled with additional theoretical advances made by both Scott and 
Talbot Chubb, this goes
far in explaining the nuclear coupling to the lattice.

      Dr. Mitchell Swartz


      "Science: The creation of dilemmas by the solution of 
mysteries."  -  Norma Cenva


========================================================


   Cold Fusion Times    http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html
     The journal of the scientific aspects of loading isotopic fuels into 
materials ISSN# 1072-2874

   JET Thermal Products   http://world.std.com/~mica/jet.html
      Working for Safe and More Efficient Heat Products to Serve You




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On Thu, 15 Sep 2005, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> http://www.scienceiq.com/ShowFact.cfm?ID=212
>
> http://www.sportstek.net/hotteeze.htm
>
> Apparently you have to admit air into the bag. It would be interesting to
> see what would happen if a whole box of these things was damaged.
>
> I have not seen these in the U.S.

"pyrophoric" iron.   If iron is ground up fine enough, it's surface area
is such that the high rate corrosion heat can cause fires.

They sell these in Bartell's pharmacy.  Self-heating pain releif pads.
If you cut open the tyvek pad, you find black powder which eventually
turns into red rust.  They seem to have designed the particle size to give
slow heat over hours.  I was going to see what happens if I try sprinkling
the stuff into a bowl filled with cold oxygen, but never got around to it.


(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb at amasci com                         http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair
Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci

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Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 12:55:57 -0500
From: Harry Veeder <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: More test of Lifters
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Jeff and Dorothy Kooistra wrote:

> I asked:
> 
>>> What is unconventional about the two "plate" components of a charged
>>> capacitor
>>> being attracted to each other?
> 
> Harry Reeder replied:
> 
>> The force of attraction is apparently not equal and opposite.
>> If the force were equal and opposite it would not lift off the ground.
> 
> Naudin is very good at replicating an effect--but he isn't good at, or
> neglects to bother to do, rigorously contolling his experiments.  That is, he
> shows lift, but the two charged plates are not just interacting with each
> other--they are interacting with everything else around them, too, including
> the wires supplying the potential to the two plates.  When you're at high
> voltages, you cannot neglect the exterior circuit, nor the air, nor the walls
> of the container, etc. etc.
> 
> It doesn't matter if the air around it does or does not ionize.  If I rub a
> balloon on my head and put it close enough to the ceiling, it will rise and
> stick there.  It doesn't need to ionize air to do that.  Polarization matters.

Yes, but a lifter carries its own "ceiling" in the form of a wire.
 
> Let me be clear--though I am confident that the Lifters do nothing at all
> beyond ordinary physics, I can't be absolutely certain of that.  What I am
> certain of is that I have yet to see an experiment that adequately takes into
> account ALL of the relevant characteristics of the "lifter system", and the
> entire system is a very complicated thing.
> 
> That having been said, Lifters are pretty cool regardless of how they work.
> 
> Jeffery D. Kooistra


It is unlikely that a single experiment can ever be definitive.
There is no end to the number of things you would have to control
for it to be definitive.

However, Naudin has performed a number of different experiments.
Each experiment tests for something different, and taken together
they strongly suggest something unconventional is occurring.

Harry

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Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 12:56:12 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: Some experts believe global warming is causing stronger
  hurri canes
In-Reply-To: <BE76853CB39E3B47B014207F18386A8F13FE8306 moulsecoomb.bton.
 ac.uk>
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R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk wrote:

>Very authoritarian and patrician.

You got a problem with that?

Specifically, apart from the fact that you do not like my attitude, do you 
have any substantive technical objections to the points I raised in the 
debate? Because, frankly, I do not give a hoot about your opinion of me, or 
whether you think I am authoritarian and patrician.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 16 10:00:23 2005
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From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: RE: CF Is the mechanism really Nuclear?
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 17:59:07 +0100
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Last one before I go...

Yes Mitchell but you've got to get that stuff in Phys Rev. A(?), B(?) or D.
That's how you'll attract the young research fellows skilled in that arena.

You've got to stop preaching to a flock of one or the converted.
R.

-----Original Message-----
From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On
Behalf Of Mitchell Swartz
Sent: 16 September 2005 17:40
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: RE: CF Is the mechanism really Nuclear?


At 11:53 AM 9/16/2005, R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk wrote:
>You have to show that unlike other nuclear processes occurring in lattices
>(say fission) that there is a preference to giving up the energy as phonons
>at a certain frequency rather than photons. This might be possible if there
>is a resonance effect.
>
>By this resonance effect, talk of the M-B distribution of energy in the
>lattice would no longer be relevant. You'd get a sharp peak in the
>distribution and conveniently this would match or near match the coupling
to
>the D ions.
>
>By developing such a theory it might explain the hit and miss of the
>experiments. If the initiation of the chain reaction is random but then the
>coupling of the energy produced to the means to sustain the reaction is not
>quite high enough, it dies. This could result from impurities in the
lattice
>and crystalline defects.


   You might consider checking out the following reference which addresses 
your points
(and also addresses the criticism of neutrons and the "special relativity" 
arguments
which are not well-based, but are usually made by confusing E with delta-E.)
Swartz, M.,  "Phusons in Nuclear Reactions in Solids", Fusion Technology, 
31, 228-236 (1997).

   Coupled with additional theoretical advances made by both Scott and 
Talbot Chubb, this goes
far in explaining the nuclear coupling to the lattice.

      Dr. Mitchell Swartz


      "Science: The creation of dilemmas by the solution of 
mysteries."  -  Norma Cenva


========================================================


   Cold Fusion Times    http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html
     The journal of the scientific aspects of loading isotopic fuels into 
materials ISSN# 1072-2874

   JET Thermal Products   http://world.std.com/~mica/jet.html
      Working for Safe and More Efficient Heat Products to Serve You



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From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: RE: Some experts believe global warming is causing stronger hurri
	 canes
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 18:02:07 +0100
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You've got a temper and this is your particular fuse.

Sorry. 

R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk wrote:

>Very authoritarian and patrician.

You got a problem with that?

Specifically, apart from the fact that you do not like my attitude, do you 
have any substantive technical objections to the points I raised in the 
debate? Because, frankly, I do not give a hoot about your opinion of me, or 
whether you think I am authoritarian and patrician.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 16 10:14:36 2005
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Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 13:13:14 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: Some experts believe global warming is causing stronger 
  hurricanes
In-Reply-To: <20050916164015.5CC6CC0077 xprdmailfe25.nwk.excite.com>
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Michael Foster wrote:

> > The problem is, by the time the debate
> > is fully settled it may be too late
> > to do stave off a catastrophe. We must
> > act on the basis of incomplete and
> > unsure information.
>
>But Jed, isn't that exact logic W used
>to invade Iraq?

Exactly! I agree there is a risk of making this kind of mistake. We might 
waste resources without fixing the problem. Or there may not even be a 
problem, and the present warming trend might reverse itself naturally.

Anyone who advocates taking steps to alleviate global warming should be 
willing to admit that these steps may not be necessary. The beauty of it 
is, most of them have other benefits and should be taken anyway.

However, regarding W. and his invasion, compared to global warming and to 
most other problems, there was a clear-cut and quick path to confirmation, 
and to making a go/no go decision. Had the U.N. weapons inspectors had been 
given a few more months, it would have been established beyond reasonable 
doubt that there were no WMD, and the justification for the war would have 
evaporated. We did not need to stand around waiting and worrying that there 
might be WMD -- we were on a clear path to finding out.

I suppose they would have cooked up some other justification . . .

- Jed


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Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 13:18:43 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: Some experts believe global warming is causing stronger
  hurri canes
In-Reply-To: <BE76853CB39E3B47B014207F18386A8F13FE8338 moulsecoomb.bton.
 ac.uk>
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R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk wrote:

>You've got a temper and this is your particular fuse.

I do have a temper (although it seldom lasts more than five minutes), but 
in this case I think your comments were hilarious. I am tickled that anyone 
thinks I am "authoritarian and patrician." I show wave that at my children 
next time they defy me. "See?" I'll tell them, "let's have some respect here."


>Sorry.

Don't be. You made my day.

- Jed


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Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Researchers at Georgia Tech (rah, rah!) believe that global warming is 
> causing stronger hurricanes. See:
>
> http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn8002
>
> Other articles have pointed out that other factors are at work, such 
> as a natural 20-year cycle, but these factors are reportedly not 
> sufficient to explain the increase in destructive hurricanes. As I 
> mentioned, the Japanese meteorological agency researchers recently 
> claimed that the overall worldwide energy released from hurricanes has 
> increased, that the force and duration of hurricanes striking Japan 
> has increased (this is indisputable), and that global warming is a 
> significant contributing factor.
>
> Of course there are legitimate atmospheric researchers who disagree 
> with these findings. This is not a settled issue.
>
> I was amused to note that journalist and self-appointed atmospheric 
> expert researcher Charles Krauthammer dismissed the very idea of that 
> global warming may have contributed to the ferocity of the Katrina 
> hurricane. I would like to ask him what he based to that claim on, and 
> how many papers in atmospheric science he has read. After years of 
> dealing with CF, I am heartily sick of instant experts who pontificate 
> about research they know nothing about. Of course I know nothing about 
> atmospheric science, but I admit it! I point out that there is 
> legitimate debate, and the issue is not settled. And I do not 
> categorically declare that I am sure one side or the other is correct.
>
> The problem is, by the time the debate is fully settled it may be too 
> late to do stave off a catastrophe. We must act on the basis of 
> incomplete and unsure information.
>
> - Jed
>
>
I've done some climatology and its perfectly reasonable that the 
greenhouse effect may be faster and more damaging than the modelers 
predict. There are a lot of problems with the climate modeling but the 
underlying theory, add more CO2 and it gets hotter, still holds. Bigger 
storms also mean more cloud. These reflect sunlight and cool the planet. 
The hurricanes may be natures way of re-establishing the temperature. 
DMS dimethyl sulphide, a compound produced by plankton in response to 
salinity, seeds the clouds. It may be nutrient dependent. If the seas 
were 5% fresher we would not get storm clouds at all. The shape and size 
of a storm may depend on the distribution of surface salinity. The rain 
from a hurricane freshens the water in some places and diminishes the 
storm while wave mixing re-equalizes the salinity. DMS distributions are 
still poorly understood.

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>From: Wesley Bruce

>>http://www.gasresources.net/Plagiarism(Overview).htm
>>
>Dead link above. Do you have an alternative? Is it a typo?

it's not really dead, just ill -- for some reason many mailers don't 
recognize the parenthetic portion

if you will cut and paste it into your url address window it will come up 
fine -- or if you prefer you can link to it through this page

http://www.gasresources.net/toc_Plagiarism.htm

_________________________________________________________________
FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now! 
http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 16 10:47:22 2005
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Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 13:44:28 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Extraordinary claims bla, bla, bla . . .
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R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk wrote:

>Jed in a nutshell, Carl Sagan: "Extraordinary claims, extraordinary
>evidence".

Carl Sagan was right about many thing. Yesterday I learned that he said 
some nice things about cold fusion toward the end of his life. But that 
statement was wrong, wrong, wrong. He had it backward. As Chris Tinsley is 
to say, extraordinary claims demand *ordinary* evidence. The more 
extraordinary the claim is, the more conventional, reliable, ordinary and 
indisputable the evidence for it should be.

Fortunately, that is exactly what we have for cold fusion. It is based on 
18th and 19th-century calorimetry, which is one of the most fundamental and 
unquestionably reliable techniques known to science. Recent experiments by 
J. Dufour et al. use the world's first calorimeter -- the ice calorimeter 
developed by Lavoisier in 1787. An elegant, first-principle instrument, 
well-suited to this experiment. Do the skeptics really want to assert that 
Lavoisier was wrong? Or that his claims were "extraordinary"? If you 
believe him, and J. P. Joule, where do you get off doubting people who use 
the very same instruments and methods 218 years later? (And it is the same 
instrument. Lavoisier would recognize it at a glance.)

People who reject cold fusion must also reject thermodynamics and most of 
modern chemistry. Frankly, I consider them lunatic fringe, flat-earth 
whackos. People who think the textbooks are wrong usually turn out to be 
flakes.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 16 10:58:50 2005
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Subject: Re: Heavy Deuterons & Deuteron Stripping
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Frederick Sparber writes,

"At the risk of being drawn and quartered I calculate that the 
Helium (or Tritium)  produced by fusion of two "defective" 
Deuterons will have a mass about 0.6% greater than the 4.00260 AMU 
of regular Helium or the 3.01605 AMU of Tritium or 3.01602 AMU 
He3. Thus the expected energy release (based on hot fusion) could 
be reduced by orders of magnitude."

Frascati labs has a fantastic mass-spec setup for analyzing CF 
ash, mentioned before on Vo. For some time, I have been searching 
their reports for this Helium blip (and other suspect blips) which 
can be resolved by their precision mass spectrometer, but have not 
observed any anomaly so far. Here is a typical curve (if you don't 
mind downloading a big file just to look at one graph).
www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/DeNinnoAexperiment.pdf


Not to worry.  There is still one critical detail which should be 
mentioned about the electronium concept (i.e. positronium anion.) 
which salvages the whole idea.

It is very possible that this is a short-lived temporary ion which 
springs into existence only temporarily - somewhat as an adjunct 
of normal "virtual positronium." IOW electronium is also virtual 
but with a much extended lifetime over virtual Ps.

Therefore, electronium would disappear after the fusion event and 
not show up later in any mass-spec analysis.

The reason that the underlying "fusion-event" itself might 
nevertheless be "energy deficient" has not been eliminated by this 
alternative viewpoint.  After all, that "energy deficiency" and 
lack of the signature 24 MeV photon -  is what the concept of 
electronium attempted to explain in the first place.

As an alternative explanation we may have a transitory electronium 
instead of a permanent one.  Other ongoing processes in the active 
CF matrix may have already "withdrawn OU energy" (in the QM 
context) in excess of the deficit (24 MeV) and this prior local 
deficit then leads directly to a heightened probability that the 
positronium anion will form and stay active for an extended 
period.

Unfortunately, this explanation probably also limits the CF 
reaction to never being amenable to very much improvement over the 
present experiments. However, that does not mean that these cannot 
be commercialized.

Jones
 

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Subject: Re: Some experts believe global warming is causing stronger  hurricanes
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jed Rothwell" <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
To: <vortex-L eskimo.com>
Sent: Friday, September 16, 2005 12:06 PM
Subject: RE: Some experts believe global warming is causing stronger
hurricanes


> It is NEVER too late. If we -- mankind as a whole -- gets serious about
> this, we can devise ways to fix just about any problem short of the sun
> going supernova.
>> - Jed

We are incredibly vunerable to any variation in output that our sun may
shine on us.  Compared to a 1% or 2% shift in solar radiation, anything
civilization can do is inconsequential.

Suppose we manage to act effectively to reduce global warming, and then the
sun goes into a low output mode.  This could cause a terrible ice age that
we would have otherwise survived if we hadn't reduced the earth's
temperature.  My investment strategy works this way all the time.  The
stakes you propose are much higher.

Jeff



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 16 11:38:05 2005
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Subject: Re: Heavy Deuterons & Deuteron Stripping
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I downloaded and read the DeNinno paper, Jones.
They used no mass spectrometer sensitive enough to discern between D2+ and
He4+ let alone a 0.6 percent mass difference between a light and heavy
deuteron or helium/tritium atom.

Hence not good enough to separate and concentrate them, from parts per
million
or billion.  More or less.   :-)

Frederick
Jones Beene wrote:
>
> Frederick Sparber writes,
>
> "At the risk of being drawn and quartered I calculate that the 
> Helium (or Tritium)  produced by fusion of two "defective" 
> Deuterons will have a mass about 0.6% greater than the 4.00260 AMU 
> of regular Helium or the 3.01605 AMU of Tritium or 3.01602 AMU 
> He3. Thus the expected energy release (based on hot fusion) could 
> be reduced by orders of magnitude."
>
> Frascati labs has a fantastic mass-spec setup for analyzing CF 
> ash, mentioned before on Vo. For some time, I have been searching 
> their reports for this Helium blip (and other suspect blips) which 
> can be resolved by their precision mass spectrometer, but have not 
> observed any anomaly so far. Here is a typical curve (if you don't 
> mind downloading a big file just to look at one graph).
> www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/DeNinnoAexperiment.pdf
>
>
> Not to worry.  There is still one critical detail which should be 
> mentioned about the electronium concept (i.e. positronium anion.) 
> which salvages the whole idea.
>
> It is very possible that this is a short-lived temporary ion which 
> springs into existence only temporarily - somewhat as an adjunct 
> of normal "virtual positronium." IOW electronium is also virtual 
> but with a much extended lifetime over virtual Ps.
>
> Therefore, electronium would disappear after the fusion event and 
> not show up later in any mass-spec analysis.
>
> The reason that the underlying "fusion-event" itself might 
> nevertheless be "energy deficient" has not been eliminated by this 
> alternative viewpoint.  After all, that "energy deficiency" and 
> lack of the signature 24 MeV photon -  is what the concept of 
> electronium attempted to explain in the first place.
>
> As an alternative explanation we may have a transitory electronium 
> instead of a permanent one.  Other ongoing processes in the active 
> CF matrix may have already "withdrawn OU energy" (in the QM 
> context) in excess of the deficit (24 MeV) and this prior local 
> deficit then leads directly to a heightened probability that the 
> positronium anion will form and stay active for an extended 
> period.
>
> Unfortunately, this explanation probably also limits the CF 
> reaction to never being amenable to very much improvement over the 
> present experiments. However, that does not mean that these cannot 
> be commercialized.
>
> Jones
>  



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 16 11:42:45 2005
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Subject: How to fix a 2% deficit in sunlight
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revtec wrote:

>We are incredibly vunerable to any variation in output that our sun may
>shine on us.  Compared to a 1% or 2% shift in solar radiation, anything
>civilization can do is inconsequential.
>
>Suppose we manage to act effectively to reduce global warming, and then the
>sun goes into a low output mode.  This could cause a terrible ice age that
>we would have otherwise survived if we hadn't reduced the earth's
>temperature.

Easy-peasy! No problem. My large-scale solution was to build space 
elevators and deploy gigantic Mylar shields. Call it a global parasol. 
Okay, so it turns out we go too far and cool things off too much, or the 
sun itself turns down the rheostat. Okay, first we remove the parasol, and 
if that does not do the trick, we redeploy the Mylar in gigantic orbiting 
mirrors to focus more sunlight on the earth on the daylight side. (You 
would not want to disrupt the night, although I guess it would be easier to 
point the mirrors that way.)

To make up for a 2% decline in solar radiation, you need enough Mylar to 
reflect approximately 2% of the daylight earth's surface area, or 3.6 
million square kilometers. That sounds doable to me.

- Jed


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>Beaty Sez:

...

> "pyrophoric" iron.   If iron is ground up fine enough,
> it's surface area is such that the high rate corrosion
> heat can cause fires.
> 
> They sell these in Bartell's pharmacy.  Self-heating pain
> releif pads. If you cut open the tyvek pad, you find
> black powder which eventually turns into red rust.  They
> seem to have designed the particle size to give
> slow heat over hours.  I was going to see what happens
> if I try sprinkling the stuff into a bowl filled with
> cold oxygen, but never got around to it.

> William J. Beaty 

When you do get around to doing it I recommend keeping your distance. ;-) 

Wearing goggles might be a good idea too.

I wonder if the burning/oxidization process might make for some interesting glazing effects on the bowl. You going to use ceramic bowls?

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

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William Beaty wrote:

> > are many commercial uses for a 10 to 100 Watt device. Even a 10 W heater
> > would be useful for some niche applications, such as keeping equipment warm
> > in the Arctic.
>
>How about milliwatts and microwatts.  Isn't 
>Eveready/Duracell/Rayovac/Panasonic
>a billion-dollar industry?

Yeah. In the first post I listed 100 watts thermal or 10 watts 
thermoelectric as the minimum practical level, but I guess even a fraction 
of a watt thermoelectric would be useful. And one-watt thermal would make a 
dandy pocket warmer / gonad eraser. (Imagine the late night TV ads for that!)

It is hard to imagine what use anyone might have for 100 or 200 mW of 
intermittent thermal power. That's how much most present-day CF devices 
produce. Not practical.

- Jed


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Either that, or a joke. See:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050916/od_nm/australia_electricity_dc;_ylt=AnSncsPmBadIcUXBllHNhE.s0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3ODdxdHBhBHNlYwM5NjQ

"SYDNEY (Reuters) - An Australian man built up a 40,000-volt charge of 
static electricity in his clothes as he walked, leaving a trail of scorched 
carpet and molten plastic and forcing firefighters to evacuate a building. 
. . ."

I vote joke.

- Jed


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>Reporter Greg Smith: 
>http://www.norwichbulletin.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050916/NEWS01/509160322/1002

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From: "Jones Beene" <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
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Subject: OT: the mind-control Pox
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Straight out of SciFi and Hollywood ... is there anything worse 
than a parasite which can silently infect us - and then actually 
take control of the human mind?

But what if... good-new/bad-news.... in some cases this mind 
control parasite (not unlike a performance-enhancing drug) 
actually makes us more creative than before, and bolder, more 
self-assertive and more likely to make a significant cultural 
contribution... that is... before, in the end (many years later) 
it drives us crazy.

The bottom line is that only "others" (i.e. society) will become 
the unintended beneficiary of this parasite, though maybe not a 
"net" beneficiary.... while most individuals are victims ... but 
nevertheless some victims are more-famous (infamous) than 
otherwise would have been the case? Beyond the thrill and gossip 
effect of this science-story, and make no mistake - it is 
science - not SciFi, there is a very deep moral issue... and a 
good read.

It is likely that such a parasite does indeed exist now (but is on 
the verge of eradication) and that its effects, as it turns out, 
have been (arguably) beneficial to society over time in many 
cases. Sounds bizarre. Well truth is stranger than fiction, and 
this particular "Pox" may have had something to do with the 
greatness, and infamy, of many of history's most well-known 
figures. The short list of likely-infected-candidates includes:

Christopher Columbus, Ludwig van Beethoven, Robert Schumann, Franz 
Schubert,  Flaubert, Charles Baudelaire, Guy de Maupassant, 
Abraham Lincoln, Vincent van Gogh, Friedrich Nietzsche, Oscar 
Wilde, James Joyce, Adolf Hitler and Isak Dinesen. But probably 
the complete list would include many more... if the truth were 
known.

The real moral question is - should we try to eliminate 
altogether, or else "genetically engineer" this scourge (and try 
to use its powerful creative effect on human mentality - but 
without its drawbacks)? ... or because it has caused so much "net" 
suffering, should we just irradiate it and forfeit any possible 
beneficial effects?

In terms of the cultural "balance sheet" - has one Beethoven been 
worth a thousand suffering lunatics? And even if not, can we keep 
the good (as perhaps a performance-enhancing drug) and eliminate 
the bad aspects?

To backtrack into recent evolutionary history - there's an urban 
myth about dogs-and-cats, but very possibly the first part of it 
is true, about a natural but diabolical parasite in a three-way 
cycle. The parasite (called t-gondii or toxoplasma) has evolved in 
"working" cats: i.e rodent-controllers, more common back when most 
cats had to earn their keep... and that parasite was eventually 
excreted in cat "truffles" (as owners of omnivorous dogs like to 
call them). Cat truffles are apparently rather nutritious - ask 
any mutt.... only RCA can fool Nipper. If they are nutritious 
enough for dedicated carnivores who turn away from kibbles, then 
consequently they are probably the best meal any mouse could ask 
for. When ingested by a mouse, however, the parasite will lodge in 
the rodent brain but not otherwise harm it - except by releasing 
certain neurotransmitters causing the mouse to become bold, 
inquisitive, adventuresome and unafraid of cats or cat smells.... 
The urban myth part of this tale relates to the parasite being 
partly responsible for the dog-chasing-cat, i.e. the stereotypical 
dynamic... but, hey, most stereotypes being based in fact.

Ah you guessed it... the reason the parasite evolved in the first 
place, was that the mouse (not the dog) will be much more likely 
be caught by the cat, which eats the mouse whole (except for the 
tail as every cat-owner knows) letting the parasite repeat the 
cycle, re-infecting the next cat, ad nauseum. That is the 
evolutionary history of a parasite which may have a direct analog 
for parasites in other mammals.

Why should humans be any different.

Anyway, this other human parasite is a spirochete, and has a long 
history with humanity and an ominous name, which back in the 
nineteenth century was simply the "Pox" but today is something 
that young boys used to whisper about. You might want to read 
about the scientific implications, not the whispers, in the 
context of Deborah Hayden's controversial study of a the most 
famous Pre-AIDS terror-scourge, now see in a partially-benevolent 
light, as a quasi-useful "mind-control" by parasites at:
http://www.poxhistory.com/


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R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk wrote:

> Ed wrote:
> 
> 
>>>How do you get some charged moiety over the 10MeV or so barrier to even
>>>get
>>>near the nuclear forces (approx fm scale) and get substantial yield?
>>>Let's
>>>say you have some yield for hot fusion then this would get multiplied by
>>>two
>>>very small factors: a Maxwell-Boltzman correction for the reaction going
>>>on
>>>at room temp and a factor related to a Yukawa type potential.
> 
> 
>>Obviously, a mechanism exists that is not part of normal experience. 
>>That is why the effect is so hard to produce and requires a novel 
>>environment.  People need to change their expectations and explore novel 
>>processes that only occur in a crystalline structure.
> 
> 
>>Regards,
>>Ed
> 
> 
> Sorry I'm not knocking, I'm trying to understand. I'd like to know how it is
> possible to so skew the normal equilibrium distribution of energies in a
> lattice so as to produce enough 10MeV protons or deuterons. Or if you are
> using neutrons, how are these neutrons produced (Fred's post)?

You are thinking in terms of the conventional brute force method. High 
energy is not required to overcome the Coulomb barrier if another 
mechanism is available. Many mechanisms have been proposed including 
neutralization of the barrier by coherent electrons, conversion of the 
deuteron to a wave, which has no charge, and formation of novel neutral 
particles.  I suggest you read, "A Student's Guide to Cold Fusion" where 
some of the theories are discussed.
> 
> I get the feeling that if you are observing excess energy that calling it
> fusion makes it sound sexy and it could be working to your detriment. 

No, it is not called fusion because it is sexy, although I wish it were. 
  It is called fusion because the experimental observations are 
consistent with this explanation.
> 
> Take a look at non-conventional hot fusion: Farnsworth Fusor or even
> sono-luminescence they seem to be getting the numbers right - in short there
> is a *mechanism*.

There is a mechanism in cold fusion as well, just not the same one. 
Because this mechanism has not been observed before, people are having 
difficulty understanding it. If a problem exists, too many explanations 
have been proposed, none of which are believed by anyone other than the 
proposer.
> 
> To me, until you have regular repeatable experiments (properly peered
> reviewed) and some putative mechanism, how can you be demanding Manhattan
> Project style funding or $15million+ that Jed seems to think is ok. Yes
> empirical science but you must have some kind of theory to frame hypothesis
> and move the study along (that's the method!).

We have repeatable experiments, which have been described in peer 
reviewed journals. Dr. Swartz even operated one at ICCF-10 to which 
peers were invited. None showed up.  As for an explanation, a useful one 
would be very great to have.  However, explanations generally follow 
experiment.  In other fields, money is spent observing what happens when 
X, Y or Z is done to the system and from the response, a theory is 
developed.  Unfortunately, these days people get money because they have 
a theory and then do X, Y and Z to see if it is correct.
> 
> Now people exist on a spectrum from true believer to pathological sceptic to
> form a voting quorum. The most rewarding ones are those who were dead
> against you but change. Now how are you going to bring these people on board
> with what - experiments that only TBs can seem to get right and no mechanism
> to even discuss or communicate your ideas?

The field is apparently going to develop because intelligent people with 
money will invest in the possibility that the effect will work and make 
them even richer. Some day one of the private laboratories will generate 
so much energy that even a moron will be impressed.  At that point, the 
idea will become popular and the government will get involved, theory or 
no theory.
> 
> How are you going to whet peoples appetite with papers and graphs but no
> theory to match it to, it's all hearsay and trust? It doesn't scan. I'm
> telling you that young graduates and research fellows are extremely
> conservative not wishing to damage their careers. How does one read a paper,
> 'mmmh that seems correct, scan the theory, have a look at the experimental
> setup, mmmh, give it a go'.

Apparently, you have not read much about what has been reported or about 
the developing theories.

Regards,
Ed

> You haven't got enough in my opinion to lobby at the highest levels as you
> do. The three experts Jed mentioned ('why should they be humble') have
> plummeted in status too.
> Regards,
> Remi.
> 
> 

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> [Original Message]
 From: What's New <whatsnew BOBPARK.ORG>
 To: <BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW LISTSERV.UMD.EDU>
 Date: 9/16/2005 12:41:55 PM
 Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday September 16, 2005

 WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 16 Sep 05   Washington, DC

      Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment
      of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.
           The "Establishment Clause" of the
           First Amendment to The United States Constitution

 1. PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE: McCARTHY ERA CHANGE IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL. 
 A federal judge in Sacramento ruled Wednesday that reciting the
 Pledge in public schools is an unconstitutional endorsement of
 religion.  The ruling was immediately denounced by conservative
 religious groups, and is certain to be appealed.  U.S. Attorney
 General Alberto Gonzales vowed that the Justice Department will
 fight to overturn the ruling.  As a substantive issue, the Pledge
 ranks right up there with flag burning.  Congress added the words
 "under God" in 1954 at the suggestion of President Eisenhower. 
 This was at the height of the communist witch hunt, at which time
 the public equated communism with atheism.  A half-century later,
 we might note, the chief enemies of freedom are far from Godless.

 2. PLEDGE OF RESTORATION: COST OF KATRINA RECOVERY MAY TOP $200B. 
 President Bush last night began by declaring "a faith in God no
 storm can take away."  He told the nation "We will do what it
 takes, we will stay as long as it takes," to rebuild.  That was
 the right thing to say, but after the Iraq screw-up, the Katrina
 screw-up, and the tax-cut screw-up we're in for hard times.

 3. INTELLIGENT DESIGN: DOVER SCHOOL BOARD UNABLE TO STOP TRIAL. 
 On Tuesday, a federal judge in Harrisburg, PA denied the Dover
 Area School Board request for a summary judgement.  The trial
 will begin as scheduled on September 26.  The legal team that
 represents the 11 parents who filed the lawsuit welcomed the
 decision.  The lawsuit challenges a decision by the Board to
 require biology teachers to present "intelligent design" as an
 alternative to the scientific theory of evolution.  The lawsuit
 alleges that "intelligent design" is a religious theory that lies
 far outside mainstream science.  Who is the "intelligent
 designer"?  The answer makes it clear that this is just religion. 

 4. THE POISON PILL: NASA UNVEILS PLANS TO VISIT THE MOON IN 2018.
 2018?  In 1961 John Kennedy promised the Moon "before this decade
 is out."  From a standing start, America was on the moon in seven
 years.  Now, after 44 years of "space progress," it's gonna take
 twice as long?  What are we looking for?  NASA says they'll find
 water, hydrogen and "valuable commodities."  On the Moon?  Go on! 
 Maybe someone takes that seriously, but he's not writing this
 column.  We've got robots on Mars right now.  Put a few of them
 on the moon.  They don't break for lunch, or complain about the
 cold nights, and they live on sunshine.  Space exploration with
 humans is about over.  The bills won't come due until Bush is
 safely out of office.  Stick the next administration with an
 impossibly expensive and pointless program and let them take the
 blame for ending human space exploration.  This is a poison pill.

 THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND.
 Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the
 University of Maryland, but they should be.
 ---
 Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.bobpark.org
 What's New is moving to a different listserver and our
 subscription process has changed. To change your subscription
 status please visit this link:
 http://listserv.umd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=bobparks-whatsnew&A=1


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Hi Jeff,

John Schnurer would have agreed with you. And if he's reading this I am sure 
he does agree.  Although he could be pesky at times with cryptic comments, I 
understood exactly why it used to drive him so crazy that almost *all* 
Lifter experimenters would theorize that there was [probably] a 
gravitational interaction and yet they would not go that extra step to 
reduce the coulomb and/or ion artefacts. What Schnurer suggested was that 
the whole lifter assembly be enclosed inside a Faraday cage.

By "whole assembly" he refers to the batteries that power the [also] 
enclosed high voltage power supply plus the Lifter itself.

By "Faraday cage" he meant a light weight metalized Mylar cage or sphere 
that totally encloses the above assembly to prevent any ions escaping, and 
to prevent any electric fields "extending" outside it's walls.

John never argued that there was no gravitational interaction. His argument 
was only this; that if there was any gravitational effect, then unless the 
above procedure was implemented, no balance scale on earth could discern it- 
from the overwhelming ion and coulomb artefacts.

We humans do have an amazing ability to fool ourselves when we "want to 
believe", (and I include myself :)

Colin




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jeff and Dorothy Kooistra" <>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>; <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Sent: Friday, September 16, 2005 11:38 AM
Subject: Re: More test of Lifters


>I asked:
>
>>> What is unconventional about the two "plate" components of a charged 
>>> capacitor
>>> being attracted to each other?
>
> Harry Reeder replied:
>
>>The force of attraction is apparently not equal and opposite.
>>If the force were equal and opposite it would not lift off the ground.
>
> Naudin is very good at replicating an effect--but he isn't good at, or 
> neglects to bother to do, rigorously contolling his experiments.  That is, 
> he shows lift, but the two charged plates are not just interacting with 
> each other--they are interacting with everything else around them, too, 
> including the wires supplying the potential to the two plates.  When 
> you're at high voltages, you cannot neglect the exterior circuit, nor the 
> air, nor the walls of the container, etc. etc.
>
> It doesn't matter if the air around it does or does not ionize.  If I rub 
> a balloon on my head and put it close enough to the ceiling, it will rise 
> and stick there.  It doesn't need to ionize air to do that.  Polarization 
> matters.
>
> Let me be clear--though I am confident that the Lifters do nothing at all 
> beyond ordinary physics, I can't be absolutely certain of that.  What I am 
> certain of is that I have yet to see an experiment that adequately takes 
> into account ALL of the relevant characteristics of the "lifter system", 
> and the entire system is a very complicated thing.
>
> That having been said, Lifters are pretty cool regardless of how they 
> work.
>
> Jeffery D. Kooistra
>
>
>
>
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 16 14:17:29 2005
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From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: A case of near-spontaneous human combustion reported in  Australia
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On Fri, 16 Sep 2005, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> "SYDNEY (Reuters) - An Australian man built up a 40,000-volt charge of
> static electricity in his clothes as he walked, leaving a trail of scorched
> carpet and molten plastic and forcing firefighters to evacuate a building.
> . . ."
>
> I vote joke.

Or it could be like meteors, ball lightning, etc:  a common phenomenon
which is constantly reported by members of the public, but which is denied
by science because it "goes against theory."   This is the "Electric
Human" effect, see http://amasci.com/emotor/zapped.html#ehum



About "electric people," my latest crackpot vision involves a virus which
has figured out a way to spread itself which is vaguely similar to that of
the cold virus.  But rather than causing people to sneeze (which spreads
virus-laden droplets,) the virus forces human lung surfaces to produce the
virus-laden dropets.  When a victim breathes outwards, the air is full of
virus.  A possible side effect: if the nano-droplets happen to be slightly
charged, then the droplet-filled air will be like an electrified gas, and
when the victim breathes outwards, their body will acquire a charge
opposite to that of the charged gas.  Their lungs are a VandeGraaff
machine, with the air being the belt.



(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb at amasci com                         http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair
Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci

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this one is said to make the engine purr

http://www.wusatv.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=42960

-alex

_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! 
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Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 17:34:42 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: CF Is the mechanism really Nuclear?
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R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk wrote:

>To me, until you have regular repeatable experiments (properly peered
>reviewed) . . .

We had than by 1990.


>. . . and some putative mechanism . . .

That we do not have.


>, how can you be demanding Manhattan
>Project style funding or $15million+ that Jed seems to think is ok.

Yeah, $15 million seems about right. Enough to do serious work but not so 
much that it would attract Halliburton.


>You haven't got enough in my opinion to lobby at the highest levels as you
>do.

I do not think it was Ed's idea to approach the DoE, if that is what you 
are talking about. At this stage, I do not think there is any chance of 
help from "high levels," but only from canny individuals, as Ed described.


>The three experts Jed mentioned ('why should they be humble') have
>plummeted in status too.

Do not confuse cause and effect. They plummeted in status because they 
support cold fusion. Anyone who comes out publicly in support will be 
dismissed and ridiculed. A few support it quietly, behind the scenes. Come 
to think of it, if there is any conspiracy associated with cold fusion, I 
expect it is supportive, not in opposition. But as I said, I know of no 
conspiracy, and I am the last person who would find out about one.

- Jed


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Subject: RE: OT: the mind-control Pox
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Jones wrote:

(Infected with the pox were)

> Christopher Columbus, Ludwig van Beethoven, 
> Robert Schumann, Franz Schubert, Flaubert, 
> Charles Baudelaire, Guy de Maupassant, Abraham
> Lincoln, Vincent van Gogh, Friedrich Nietzsche, 
> Oscar Wilde, James Joyce, Adolf Hitler and 
> Isak Dinesen. But probably the complete list 
> would include many more... if the truth were
> known.

There's little doubt about this list except for
perhaps Lincoln and Hitler.  Lincoln had enough
other demons, chronic and extreme constipation and
a crazy wife spying for the Confederacy, to 
explain some of his behavior. Hitler, perhaps,
but his addiction to amphetamines could also 
explain his hideous,insane actions.

You forgot about the stars of the list, Lenin and
Stalin. There's absolutely no doubt about them.
The Soviets saved their brains which look something
like Swiss cheese. Among Lenin, Stalin, and Mao, you
have three men who were responsible for more human
death than any others in history.

Mao was likely infected as well.  As in, "I never
bathe, I wash my penis in the bellies of my women."

M.


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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 16 14:53:19 2005
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Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 17:52:18 -0400
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Subject: WAY OFF TOPIC . . .
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"Woman complains to cops after hitman she hired fails to get the job done"

See:

http://mdn.mainichi-msn.co.jp/national/news/20050915p2a00m0na003000c.html

"A woman who hired a hitman to murder the wife of her lover, and then 
complained to police when he didn't do the job, has been arrested along 
with the hitman, police said.

The murderous intentions of Eriko Kawaguchi, a Tokyo Fire Fighting 
Department employee, came to light after she complained to police because 
the hitman didn't carry out the job, although she paid him about 15 million 
yen . . . [$150,000]"


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Laughter will save the rest of us from going insane.

Thanks Jed

At 02:52 PM 9/16/2005, you wrote:
>"Woman complains to cops after hitman she hired fails to get the job done"
>
>See:
>
>http://mdn.mainichi-msn.co.jp/national/news/20050915p2a00m0na003000c.html
>
>"A woman who hired a hitman to murder the wife of her lover, and then 
>complained to police when he didn't do the job, has been arrested along 
>with the hitman, police said.
>
>The murderous intentions of Eriko Kawaguchi, a Tokyo Fire Fighting 
>Department employee, came to light after she complained to police because 
>the hitman didn't carry out the job, although she paid him about 15 
>million yen . . . [$150,000]"
>
>

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From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: CF Is the mechanism really Nuclear?
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At 04:13 PM 9/16/2005, Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>>R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk wrote:  Now people exist on a spectrum from 
>>true believer to pathological sceptic to
>>form a voting quorum. The most rewarding ones are those who were dead
>>against you but change. Now how are you going to bring these people on board
>>with what - experiments that only TBs can seem to get right and no mechanism
>>to even discuss or communicate your ideas?

Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>:
"We have repeatable experiments, which have been described in peer reviewed 
journals. Dr. Swartz even operated one at ICCF-10 to which peers were 
invited. None showed up.  As for an explanation, a useful one would be very 
great to have.  However, explanations generally follow experiment.  In 
other fields, money is spent observing what happens when X, Y or Z is done 
to the system and from the response, a theory is developed.  Unfortunately, 
these days people get money because they have a theory and then do X, Y and 
Z to see if it is correct."



Dr. Storms is inaccurate.
It is NOT true that "Dr. Swartz even operated one at ICCF-10 to which peers 
were invited. None showed up".  In fact, to the contrary,
during the week long demonstration (which yield circa 290 to 250% excess 
heat when compared to an ohmic control), many peers
did show up; more than two hundred on Tuesday afternoon alone!  The 
demonstration was in the MIT electrical engineering building
and many MIT people came (as well as scores of others).

The demonstration was written up as Swartz. M., "Can a Pd/D2O/Pt Device be 
Made Portable to Demonstrate
the Optimal Operating Point?", ICCF-10 (Camb. MA), Proceedings of 
ICCF-10,  (2003).

Furthermore, scores of people have witnessed the subsequent demonstrations 
(which are now in a subsequent 'generation'
of devices). For example, the distinguished Prof. Brian Josephson saw that 
same cold fusion cell operated more than a year later
(when it yielded circa 140% excess heat when  compared to an ohmic control).

Who did not show up during that week was the mainstream media.  Both the 
Boston Globe and Boston Herald were called by the late Dr. Eugene Mallove,
but even though ads were put into the Boston Globe about the demonstration 
(by MIT Prof. Hagelstein), the MSM did not come.
So what.  More aware and less myopic members of the press DID come both 
there and to the recent MIT CF Colloquium.

In any case, as regards ICCF-10, hundreds of peers came, Dr. Storms - 
especially on Tuesday afternoon.
We enjoyed discussing physics and engineering with each and every 
inquisitive one of them.
Many pictures shown at the LENR and JTP web-sites 
http://world.std.com/~mica/jeticcf10demo.html
demonstrate just a glimpse of SOME of these important peers.

       Dr. Mitchell Swartz


      "Science: Lost in its own mythos, redoubling its efforts when it has 
forgotten its aim."  -  Norma Cenva


========================================================


   Cold Fusion Times    http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html
     The journal of the scientific aspects of loading isotopic fuels into 
materials ISSN# 1072-2874

   JET Thermal Products   http://world.std.com/~mica/jet.html
      Working for Safe and More Efficient Heat Products to Serve You





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At 03:11 PM 9/16/2005, Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>  wrote:
>William Beaty wrote:
>> > are many commercial uses for a 10 to 100 Watt device. Even a 10 W heater
>> > would be useful for some niche applications, such as keeping equipment 
>> warm
>> > in the Arctic.
>>How about milliwatts and microwatts.  Isn't 
>>Eveready/Duracell/Rayovac/Panasonic
>>a billion-dollar industry?
>
>J. Rothwell: "Yeah. In the first post I listed 100 watts thermal or 10 
>watts thermoelectric as the minimum practical level, but I guess even a 
>fraction of a watt thermoelectric would be useful. And one-watt thermal 
>would make a dandy pocket warmer / gonad eraser. (Imagine the late night 
>TV ads for that!)
>It is hard to imagine what use anyone might have for 100 or 200 mW of 
>intermittent thermal power. That's how much most present-day CF devices 
>produce. Not practical.
>- Jed"



   Although "It is hard to imagine what use anyone might have for 100 or 
200 mW of intermittent thermal power" is true
in the short run, over a longer amount of time, many 10s of kilojoules 
excess energy (and more) can be wrought.

   Furthermore, some present  day cold fusion devices can produce more 
excess power (several watts),
even though in the hands of Dr. Storms and Jed Rothwell and their company, 
using their techniques,
more paucity of excess power generation is observed, as they point out.


   As a few examples,  I looked through some of our recent results since 
ICCF-10 [using the Phusor design in various
setups and with the 10K-Driver  (seen in Popular Mechanics last year)], and 
these are some of the results.


Run 50810 - Cold Fusioneers M. Swartz, J. Driscoll
         Power gain peak 325%    Power gain (average)  162%   Excess Energy 
21.2 kilojoules  ave. excess power 1.93 watts

Run 50812 - - Cold Fusioneers M. Swartz, G. Verner, J. Caruso
        Power gain peak 190%    Power gain (average)  177%   Excess Energy 
39.4 kilojoules  ave. excess power  1.23 watts

Run 50627 - Cold Fusioneers M. Swartz, M. Feld, R. Kramer
         Power gain peak 177%    Power gain (average)  167%   Excess Energy 
21.2 kilojoules   ave. excess power   2.9 watts

  Run 40509 - Cold Fusioneers M. Swartz, J. Tolleson, B. Weber, S. Olasky
          Power gain peak 175%    Power gain (average)  160%   Excess 
Energy 65.1 kilojoules   ave. excess power   ~374 milliwatts

  Run 50810 - Cold Fusioneers M. Swartz, J. Tolleson, B. Nappi
          Power gain peak 198%    Power gain (average)  153%   Excess 
Energy 23.6 kilojoules   ave. excess power   ~366 milliwatts

  Run 40515 - Cold Fusioneers M. Swartz, G. Verner, E. Mallove (*, began 
control arm, but was murdered during run)
         Power gain peak 275%    Power gain (average)  177%   Excess Energy 
91.8 kilojoules  ave. excess power  741 milliwatts

  Run 40522 - Cold Fusioneers M. Swartz, B. Josephson
          Power gain peak 190%    Power gain (average)  139%   Excess 
Energy 24.2 kilojoules   ave. excess power  ~200 milliwatts

  Run 50830 - - Cold Fusioneers M. Swartz, G. Verner, YT Li, G. Dash, D. 
Briefer
        Power gain peak 156%    Power gain (average)  149%   Excess Energy 
112.1 kilojoules  ave. excess power  1.59 watts

   Hope that helps.

        Dr. Mitchell Swartz


      "Intuition is a function by which humans see around corners."  -  Erasmus


========================================================


   Cold Fusion Times    http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html
     The journal of the scientific aspects of loading isotopic fuels into 
materials ISSN# 1072-2874

   JET Thermal Products   http://world.std.com/~mica/jet.html
      Working for Safe and More Efficient Heat Products to Serve You




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On a lighter note... The LENR web site, as translated into 
"Ebonics":

Dis site features some library uh sheets on LENR, Low Energy 
Nuclar Reacshuns, also knode as Col' Fusion. 'S coo', bro. (CANR, 
Chemically Assisted Nuclear Reacshuns, be anoda' term fo' dis 
phenomenon. 'S coo', bro.) It features some library uh mo'e dan 
400 o'iginal scientific sheets in Acrobat fo'mat, reprinted wid 
puh'mission fum de audo's and publishers. De sheets is linked t'a 
bibliography uh ova' 3,000 journal sheets, news articles and 
scribblin's about LENR. Click on de CONTENTS listed on de left 
t'see, dig dis dawg....

Courtesy of the "Dialectizer" aplet
http://rinkworks.com/dialect/dialectt.cgi

Probably the best Litmus test of Liberalism in the USA these days 
is so-called Eubonics-test, bro.

OK I fail miserably... and hate this concept of any alternative 
language for American subcultures - insofar as becoming 
*institutionalized* that is, and given the patina of real 
accetpabilitiy. Whether it be red-neck, Valspeak, cajun, 
latino-homey or eubonics .... OK on-the-streets, or on the comedy 
circuit - it's fine - but in the context of schooling, this trend 
is dispicable as a reverse-racist, total educational cop-out by 
weak teachers, and a relinguishment of intellectual rigor... plus 
if you only knew the warped history of it ...

OTOH, all language derivatives, and black-English in particular, 
are most amusing in certain situations - and will not ever just 
"go-away" so get used to it, dude ... and now that Lee (Iacocca 
not Spike) and Snoop-whatever are a TV pair-made-in-heaven, some 
would say that "we have come a long way."

Hmm... I'm not too sure about that. Apropos of nothing, really but 
the other Lee's (Spike) current satire of collective black 
pop-culture, as targeted in "Bamboozled" probably sees Snoop as 
the latest "Super Magical Nigger," i.e.a racial sterotyped icon 
which can be manipulated to use their own vodoo magic to help 
white people, but can't help themselves. "Same old, same old." 
according to Lee -Like we made a lot of real progress. Got rid of 
uncle Tom, and everything's A-O-K.

So by this Eubonics Liberalism test, I am right in there with 
Jesse - as in Helms, not Jackson, while still agreeing with Lee 
(Spike not Iacocca) on how far we have really progressed towards a 
homogeneous society. OTOH it is far preferable to the division 
between Sunni and Shia. Life is absolutely filled with the 
unexplainable. Also apropos of nothing, really, it all probably 
goes back to Buckwheat and "Our Gang" but according to him as 
quoted in the NYT: "Farina, Stymie and I only spoke that way in 
the movies because white people wrote the scripts. Our parents and 
teachers would never let us get away with speaking anything but 
proper English when we weren't working.

Another case in point (the point being the humorous irrationality 
of life): it was nearly ten years ago now that the Oakland School 
Board ruled unanimously to teach Ebonics (which some argue is a 
dialect of English spoken by some African-Americans) in school as 
a second language, then backed off.  My neighbor at the time in 
Berkeley was a 25 year old recent Cal grad, liberal Jewish 
(actually a "Ju-Bu" formerly Jewish turned Buddhist - very common 
these days) who claimed vociferously that he himself started the 
whole Ebonics trend, including the name, kind of as a 
"blacker-than-thou" inside joke, just to show the other teachers 
(almost all black but comparatively conservative) what it meant to 
be really Liberal.

I hope Firesign Theatre will pick up on this.... or have they?

Jones

 "Give Me Immortality Or Give Me Death"



 

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Subject: Re: Some experts believe global warming is causing stronger   hurr icanes
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It is plausible that if more heat energy is injected into the global weather
system, all phemomena can go to higher extremes. The paths and magnitudes of
individual storms are not predictable by any means available to us, so the
hit on New Orleans could be predicted only tens of hours in advance. It
could as easily have gone further east or west, so great cost to improve the
levees would have been "wasted". The Netherlands have lived for centuries
below sea level, so there is no element of chance in the catastrophe of
flooding, and certainty of the great expense of keeping the sea at bay. .

I have mentioned here on Vortex studies which suggest that if the great
Earth precession and orbital cycles prevailed, we would be now in a deep
cooling period, which was forestalled by the rise of human agriculture on a
large scale over the past thousands of years, so humans do indeed produce
"global warming". It is the sharp rise in industrial and transportation uses
of energy from follsile fuels which have pushed the trend past "compensation
for cooling" to "accelerated warming".

There isn't much we can do about *that* now. Jed's suggestion of vast
reflectors to reduce the sun's input is suggestive of an element of Clarke's
third 'oddessy' novel in which "they" decided to end their experiment with
quarrelsome Man by having the monoliths create a large occulting disc
between the Earth and Sun, thereby slowly extinguising all life on earth.
Creating a large shadow on a portion of the Earth is a guaranteed way to
upset the global weather patterns in a thoroughly unpredictalbe mannner.
Clarke's solution to the problem is ingenious, which I will leave to readers
to discover.

Cold Fusion and BlackLight Power offer medium to long term solutions to the
cotinued loading of the atmosphere with greehouse gases without drastically
curtailing our energy-based economies.

The US has been blessed by an absence of true catastrophy and invasion. A
measure of the blindness of the media is that the director of Homeland
Security was criticized for attending a meeting on Avian Flu instead of
continuous hourly involvement over the New Orleans tragedy. Avian Flu has
passed to humans now, and if it mutates to an easily communicable form, we
could be facing a catstrophe which will pale the war in Iraq or the New
Orleans flood.

Humans have no immunity to Avian Flu. It can spread around the world in
hours by plane and be seeded in populations everywhere. There is no present
vaccine, and it will take some time to develop one. The remedy is an old
one, quaranteen not only of individuals but of towns, cities and nations.
International commerce could be interrupted.

We easily forget that a **major** factor in the European conquest of the
Native Americans was diseases such as smallpox which Europeans had become
infected by their cattle, and then over time developed a degree of
immunity -- not shared by the Native Americans.

AIDS is slowly devastating Africa and other nations. It develops slowly and
kills slowly and expensivley. Avian Flu is fast.

Against biology our enthusiasm for energy is feeble.

There is no question that humanity will survive, for Man is among the
toughest of all animals. Nor will our technology be lost, for it is now
diffused everywhere. But the pattern of our civilizations may become quite
different, and the balances of power also different. Conspiracies and
alliances can be swept away like the houses of cards they are.

This is not a biblical apocalypse, either, but the continued evolution of
change set in motion by the expanded human population and power to the point
that Mankind ineteracts with the ecology of the planet without understanding
the long term consequences of our acts, which are without self-restraint, so
we *will* be restrained in ways that might surprise.

Recommended reading: "Collapse" by Jared Diamond.

Mike Carrell



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Mitchell Swartz wrote:

> At 04:13 PM 9/16/2005, Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> 
>>> R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk wrote:  Now people exist on a spectrum 
>>> from true believer to pathological sceptic to
>>> form a voting quorum. The most rewarding ones are those who were dead
>>> against you but change. Now how are you going to bring these people 
>>> on board
>>> with what - experiments that only TBs can seem to get right and no 
>>> mechanism
>>> to even discuss or communicate your ideas?
> 
> 
> Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>:
> "We have repeatable experiments, which have been described in peer 
> reviewed journals. Dr. Swartz even operated one at ICCF-10 to which 
> peers were invited. None showed up.  As for an explanation, a useful one 
> would be very great to have.  However, explanations generally follow 
> experiment.  In other fields, money is spent observing what happens when 
> X, Y or Z is done to the system and from the response, a theory is 
> developed.  Unfortunately, these days people get money because they have 
> a theory and then do X, Y and Z to see if it is correct."
> 
> 
> 
> Dr. Storms is inaccurate.
> It is NOT true that "Dr. Swartz even operated one at ICCF-10 to which 
> peers were invited. None showed up".  In fact, to the contrary,
> during the week long demonstration (which yield circa 290 to 250% excess 
> heat when compared to an ohmic control), many peers
> did show up; more than two hundred on Tuesday afternoon alone!  The 
> demonstration was in the MIT electrical engineering building
> and many MIT people came (as well as scores of others).

I apologize if I was misinformed.  I was told at the time, and Peter 
makes the point in his introduction to the ICCF-10 Proceedings, that 
although people from MIT were invited, only a few students showed up. 
I'm glad to learn that some did see the demonstration.  Did this 
experience on their part change the attitude at MIT?

Ed
> 
> The demonstration was written up as Swartz. M., "Can a Pd/D2O/Pt Device 
> be Made Portable to Demonstrate
> the Optimal Operating Point?", ICCF-10 (Camb. MA), Proceedings of 
> ICCF-10,  (2003).
> 
> Furthermore, scores of people have witnessed the subsequent 
> demonstrations (which are now in a subsequent 'generation'
> of devices). For example, the distinguished Prof. Brian Josephson saw 
> that same cold fusion cell operated more than a year later
> (when it yielded circa 140% excess heat when  compared to an ohmic 
> control).
> 
> Who did not show up during that week was the mainstream media.  Both the 
> Boston Globe and Boston Herald were called by the late Dr. Eugene Mallove,
> but even though ads were put into the Boston Globe about the 
> demonstration (by MIT Prof. Hagelstein), the MSM did not come.
> So what.  More aware and less myopic members of the press DID come both 
> there and to the recent MIT CF Colloquium.
> 
> In any case, as regards ICCF-10, hundreds of peers came, Dr. Storms - 
> especially on Tuesday afternoon.
> We enjoyed discussing physics and engineering with each and every 
> inquisitive one of them.
> Many pictures shown at the LENR and JTP web-sites 
> http://world.std.com/~mica/jeticcf10demo.html
> demonstrate just a glimpse of SOME of these important peers.
> 
>       Dr. Mitchell Swartz
> 
> 
>      "Science: Lost in its own mythos, redoubling its efforts when it 
> has forgotten its aim."  -  Norma Cenva
> 
> 
> ========================================================
> 
> 
>   Cold Fusion Times    http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html
>     The journal of the scientific aspects of loading isotopic fuels into 
> materials ISSN# 1072-2874
> 
>   JET Thermal Products   http://world.std.com/~mica/jet.html
>      Working for Safe and More Efficient Heat Products to Serve You
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

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Jones
Gave me a chuckle and if the problem were not so serious I may even smile. 
Back when our children were in grade school, the local schools integrated in 
the 1960's, I caught flack from commenting  " you people believe 
integration will lift them up , I have news for you, they will drag you down 
to their level". They are their own worse enemy. They unify only against 
other races while destroying each other. Thomas Jefferson should know < 
grin> , he was asked what the solution to the race problem was.. he said.. 
there is NO solution.
Richard
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jones Beene" <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
To: "vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Friday, September 16, 2005 8:45 PM
Subject: Way-OT: Mo' de king's English


> On a lighter note... The LENR web site, as translated into "Ebonics":
>
> Dis site features some library uh sheets on LENR, Low Energy Nuclar 
> Reacshuns, also knode as Col' Fusion. 'S coo', bro. (CANR, Chemically 
> Assisted Nuclear Reacshuns, be anoda' term fo' dis phenomenon. 'S coo', 
> bro.) It features some library uh mo'e dan 400 o'iginal scientific sheets 
> in Acrobat fo'mat, reprinted wid puh'mission fum de audo's and publishers. 
> De sheets is linked t'a bibliography uh ova' 3,000 journal sheets, news 
> articles and scribblin's about LENR. Click on de CONTENTS listed on de 
> left t'see, dig dis dawg....
>
> Courtesy of the "Dialectizer" aplet
> http://rinkworks.com/dialect/dialectt.cgi
>
> Probably the best Litmus test of Liberalism in the USA these days is 
> so-called Eubonics-test, bro.
>
> OK I fail miserably... and hate this concept of any alternative language 
> for American subcultures - insofar as becoming *institutionalized* that 
> is, and given the patina of real accetpabilitiy. Whether it be red-neck, 
> Valspeak, cajun, latino-homey or eubonics .... OK on-the-streets, or on 
> the comedy circuit - it's fine - but in the context of schooling, this 
> trend is dispicable as a reverse-racist, total educational cop-out by weak 
> teachers, and a relinguishment of intellectual rigor... plus if you only 
> knew the warped history of it ...
>
> OTOH, all language derivatives, and black-English in particular, are most 
> amusing in certain situations - and will not ever just "go-away" so get 
> used to it, dude ... and now that Lee (Iacocca not Spike) and 
> Snoop-whatever are a TV pair-made-in-heaven, some would say that "we have 
> come a long way."
>
> Hmm... I'm not too sure about that. Apropos of nothing, really but the 
> other Lee's (Spike) current satire of collective black pop-culture, as 
> targeted in "Bamboozled" probably sees Snoop as the latest "Super Magical 
> Nigger," i.e.a racial sterotyped icon which can be manipulated to use 
> their own vodoo magic to help white people, but can't help themselves. 
> "Same old, same old." according to Lee -Like we made a lot of real 
> progress. Got rid of uncle Tom, and everything's A-O-K.
>
> So by this Eubonics Liberalism test, I am right in there with Jesse - as 
> in Helms, not Jackson, while still agreeing with Lee (Spike not Iacocca) 
> on how far we have really progressed towards a homogeneous society. OTOH 
> it is far preferable to the division between Sunni and Shia. Life is 
> absolutely filled with the unexplainable. Also apropos of nothing, really, 
> it all probably goes back to Buckwheat and "Our Gang" but according to him 
> as quoted in the NYT: "Farina, Stymie and I only spoke that way in the 
> movies because white people wrote the scripts. Our parents and teachers 
> would never let us get away with speaking anything but proper English when 
> we weren't working.
>
> Another case in point (the point being the humorous irrationality of 
> life): it was nearly ten years ago now that the Oakland School Board ruled 
> unanimously to teach Ebonics (which some argue is a dialect of English 
> spoken by some African-Americans) in school as a second language, then 
> backed off.  My neighbor at the time in Berkeley was a 25 year old recent 
> Cal grad, liberal Jewish (actually a "Ju-Bu" formerly Jewish turned 
> Buddhist - very common these days) who claimed vociferously that he 
> himself started the whole Ebonics trend, including the name, kind of as a 
> "blacker-than-thou" inside joke, just to show the other teachers (almost 
> all black but comparatively conservative) what it meant to be really 
> Liberal.
>
> I hope Firesign Theatre will pick up on this.... or have they?
>
> Jones
>
> "Give Me Immortality Or Give Me Death"
>
>
>
>
> 


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Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Wesley Bruce wrote:
>
>> More closely resembling the treatment that creationists get in 
>> science. I have creationist friends, PhD's, that have done a large 
>> (170+) sample single blind test on radiometric dating and it Failed 
>> completely.
>
>
> I know nothing about these instruments, but that sounds highly 
> unlikely to me. It reminds me of assertions that hundreds of 
> cold-fusion scientists have all made gross errors in calorimetry. I do 
> not think that 170 professionals using well-understood conventional 
> instruments could all make giant mistakes. Large groups of scientists 
> may be wrong about theory, and they may be wrong about subjects they 
> have not themselves researched, but it is very unlikely that they are 
> wrong about how to do their daily work.
>

I better outline the experiments. The maths and chemistry is error free but the assumptions are wrong. The assumption of dating is that the gases argon, lead vapor, radon etc escape from the volcanic lava before it hardens. 
The potassium, uranium etc then decays and the decay rate then allows the age to be calculated. 
These dating techniques were calibrated against fossils to create the geological table used today. 
But something was over looked. They never checked young lava for argon etc. It was inconceivable that lava would retain such volatile gases. In recent years friends of mine have taken many samples of lava that can't be more than 100 years old; 11 years in the case of Mount Saint Helens, 20 in the case of Hawaii. In one case they took about 20 samples 
from a lava flow that flowed over a road in New Zealand, 1953. These samples are all young. They were sent to labs world wide and the calculated dates came back as millions of years old. When the results were published the labs scrambled to cover up or explain the results.
Some argued that the sample where miss handled in the field. Others argued that young lava and old lava works differently. Suffice to say the arguments that lavas are chemically different today than in the past is invalid. The basis of uniformitarian science is that we assume the present processes are enough to explain the past as geology shows it; no catastrophic floods are allowed. But if the techniques can't tell new lava from old then no mater how good the math, lab work or chemistry the technology of radiometric dating is dead. They just have not admitted it yet. For a related paper see:
http://www.icr.org/index.php?module=research&action=index&page=researchp_as_r01


>
> I am assuming that Bruce is not disputing the theory of operation of 
> radiometric dating, but rather the operator's skills. Perhaps he 
> disputes both. In any case, I have never heard of a case in which it 
> turned out that a widely-used, modern, conventional scientific 
> instrument did not actually function as claimed.
>
Call me wesley.
No I am disputing the very basis of the theory, it is unstated in all 
the text books and it failed independent testing. There is also 
selectivity in what dates are thrown out see: 
http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v24/i4/radiometric.asp

We do have a few people that talk about changing decay rates, so does 
cold fusion, but most creationists think it's irrelevant if new lava has 
argon.

> Although in general I oppose the suppression of scientific 
> discoveries, I do think there are many pernicious ideas that deserve 
> to be ignored, marginalized, or condemned because they are dangerous. 
> Creationism is at the top of the list, along with the notion that AIDS 
> is not caused by HIV, and that global warming -- if real -- would be 
> good for us (the Greening Earth Society's position).
>
I agree with you on Aids and global warming and I've taken the time to 
look at both sides of each argument. I just ask you to be as open to the 
creationists as you ask others to open to the data on cold fusion. No 
creationist I know of has ever attacked cold fusion.  The creationist 
have had decades more experience at fighting these subtle and overt 
attempts at suppression.

> There is a fine line between disagreeing and suppressing. It is *very* 
> difficult for someone in my position to assert that any idea should be 
> ignored, because after all, that is what most people say about cold 
> fusion. Yet I believe there are firm standards -- permanent, 
> indisputable standards of truth -- and cold fusion should be taken 
> seriously precisely because it meets these standards. Cold fusion's 
> greatest strength is that the experiments are conventional and 
> grounded in 19th century physics. I also firmly believe that 
> creationism does not meet a single one of these standards; it cannot 
> be falsified or verified; and it has no scientific merit. Permanent, 
> indisputable standards cut both ways: some assertions fail to meet 
> them, and we should not hesitate to say so.
>
Good points; how basic is sending a sample of known age or properties to 
a lab to verify that the labs test is valid. The creationist have had 
their own peer review journals 
<http://www.answersingenesis.org/tj/archive/> for decades and the 
science used in them is just as strongly based in firm standards -- 
permanent, indisputable standards of truth -(good wording by the way) 
but good maths, chemistry and physics is only as good as the assumptions 
that sit unstated behind them. My primary point is that they have been 
there, done what were trying to do and the fact that it's a public 
debate and I can point you to institutions 
<http://www.icr.org/index.php?module=research> and references 
<http://www.icr.org/index.php?module=research&action=index&page=researchp_papers> 
means that creationism is winning ground world wide much to the horror 
of Parks et al.

> I realize that many people say that about cold fusion but they have 
> not studied the data, and many of them such as Taubes are not 
> qualified discuss the subject. I *have* studied biology, and I have 
> given serious consideration to creationist claims.
>
And you were never shown any data for creationism in your biology course 
were you? Just as students today are not shown any data on cold fusion. 
Worse still our teachers were never shown any data on either. As someone 
who has access to both sets of data I can vouch that both creationism 
and cold fusion are good science. If someone chooses to disbelieve 
either then that is their right but in neither case can the disbelief be 
called anything but blind faith. Some cold fusion skeptics will drive 
fusion powered cars decades from now and will still blindly believe that 
it is not fusion.

> Even in the case of cold fusion, I do not oppose all forms of 
> suppression. For example, I think it would be premature to include a 
> discussion of cold fusion in a high school or undergraduate textbook. 
> I do not think we should embark on a billion-dollar Manhattan Project 
> to develop cold fusion energy. We do not know whether it can be made 
> practical, so we should not risk that kind of money. And, needless to 
> say, many of the claims made at ICCF conferences are weak, and many 
> have not been replicated, so we cannot believe them.

I think you have good reasons for wanting to prevent Al-Qaeda from 
getting cold fusion nuclear subs or something. Dr Fleischmann has a good 
point on that but the opportunity was lost in 1988 (not his fault I 
might add). I don't think that will work now even if we wanted to put a 
lid on it. The media will be demanding answers, so will students of all 
ages and cultures. The billion dollar program will come but it probably 
will be matched by thousands of school projects.

>
> - Jed
>
>
Who is the greater scholar? Someone who studies one side of a debate or 
someone who studies both sides of the debate?

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Jed Rothwell wrote:

> "Woman complains to cops after hitman she hired fails to get the job 
> done"
>
> See:
>
> http://mdn.mainichi-msn.co.jp/national/news/20050915p2a00m0na003000c.html
>
> "A woman who hired a hitman to murder the wife of her lover, and then 
> complained to police when he didn't do the job, has been arrested 
> along with the hitman, police said.
>
> The murderous intentions of Eriko Kawaguchi, a Tokyo Fire Fighting 
> Department employee, came to light after she complained to police 
> because the hitman didn't carry out the job, although she paid him 
> about 15 million yen . . . [$150,000]"
>
>
Serious IQ problem there.

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Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Either that, or a joke. See:
>
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050916/od_nm/australia_electricity_dc;_ylt=AnSncsPmBadIcUXBllHNhE.s0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3ODdxdHBhBHNlYwM5NjQ 
>
>
> "SYDNEY (Reuters) - An Australian man built up a 40,000-volt charge of 
> static electricity in his clothes as he walked, leaving a trail of 
> scorched carpet and molten plastic and forcing firefighters to 
> evacuate a building. . . ."
>
> I vote joke.
>
> - Jed
>
>
Those Victorians are really weird but not that weird.
http://the.standard.net.au/articles/2005/09/16/1126750111141.html
Ok I've read the link and they are that weird. Its a true report !?!
It's a Nestle factory so he might have picked the charge up from the 
equipment.
http://www.theage.com.au/news/business/nestle-axes-regional-jobs/2005/06/08/1118123881004.html?oneclick=true
Powdered milk production generates a lot of static. It's got to go 
somewhere.
I can't see anyone getting a charge out of that place the top item on 
Warrnambools events list is bingo!

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Edmund Storms wrote:

>
>
> R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk wrote:
>
>> Dear Vo and CF'ers,
>> I tried to unsubscribe but sent it to the wrong address. Anyway, 
>> since I'm
>> here I have a naive question for CF'ers:
>>
>> Let's not insult your integrity and the fact that you are saying that 
>> nearly
>> 100% of your experiments are reproducible despite unbiased researchers
>> having difficulties, if you are getting excess enthalpy is it really the
>> result of nuclear processes?
>
>
> A good question, Remi.  The answer is that reproducibility is not near 
> 100% when starting from scratch or when attempted by uninformed 
> people. Many variables affect the result, many of which are not yet 
> understood.  As a result, success is still affected by chance.  
> However, if the variables should combine to produce success, the 
> sample is found to be 100% reproducible. In addition, some methods are 
> more likely to produce success than others.  As for the heat being 
> from a nuclear process, when efforts were made to measure both heat 
> and He-4 production, using the "standard" techniques for producing the 
> effect, the two measurements show the expected relationship. In 
> addition, no other source of the energy is consistent with 
> experimental behavior.
>
>>
>> How do you get some charged moiety over the 10MeV or so barrier to 
>> even get
>> near the nuclear forces (approx fm scale) and get substantial yield? 
>> Let's
>> say you have some yield for hot fusion then this would get multiplied 
>> by two
>> very small factors: a Maxwell-Boltzman correction for the reaction 
>> going on
>> at room temp and a factor related to a Yukawa type potential.
>
>
> Obviously, a mechanism exists that is not part of normal experience. 
> That is why the effect is so hard to produce and requires a novel 
> environment.  People need to change their expectations and explore 
> novel processes that only occur in a crystalline structure.
>
> Regards,
> Ed
>
>>
>> I don't get it.
>> Remi.
>> .......................................
>> Website
>> http://luna.bton.ac.uk/~roc1
>> .......................................
>>
>>
>
The key question that should have been asked in 1989 was how small can 
you make a particle accelerator that shoots ions at over 10MeV. The 
answer seems to be a few hundred to a few dozen nanometers; the scale of 
the nuclear active environments (NAE). At that scale there is very 
little difference between active acceleration and quantum effects. The 
nano-devices are often destroyed by the reaction but as they heat the 
lattice my guess is, I'm probably wrong, they push ions into the next 
NAE triggering it. The reaction chains around on the surface activating 
them in ones two or threes until it runs out of intact Nae's or we do 
something silly that destroys all the nae's. Its the only thing that 
explains both heat after death and the japanese infrared 'fuse like' 
pattern of moving hot spots.

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Subject: Re: A philisophical thought.
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OrionWorks wrote:

>>From: Harry Veeder 
>>    
>>
>
>  
>
>>The philosophy underpinning free energy research does not 
>>subscribe to the principle that it is possible to get
>>something FROM nothing. It subscribes to the principle
>>that it is possible and SOMETIMES preferable to get
>>something BY DOING nothing.
>>
>>Harry
>>    
>>
>
>"By DOING nothing"?
>
>If that were the case I think the entire planet would have been luxuriating in free energy a long time ago.
>
>Grade: Incomplete.
>
>Try again.
>
>Regards,
>Steven Vincent Johnson
>www.OrionWorks.com
>
>  
>
If it were that easy why am I spending all my precious time and money 
working so hard trying to get my hands on a lab and some Palladium.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 17 01:26:01 2005
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Subject: Re: A philisophical thought.
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Harry Veeder wrote:

>OrionWorks wrote:
>
>  
>
>>>From: Harry Veeder
>>>      
>>>
>>>The philosophy underpinning free energy research does not
>>>subscribe to the principle that it is possible to get
>>>something FROM nothing. It subscribes to the principle
>>>that it is possible and SOMETIMES preferable to get
>>>something BY DOING nothing.
>>>
>>>Harry
>>>      
>>>
>>"By DOING nothing"?
>>
>>If that were the case I think the entire planet would have been luxuriating in
>>free energy a long time ago.
>>
>>Grade: Incomplete.
>>
>>Try again.
>>
>>Regards,
>>Steven Vincent Johnson
>>www.OrionWorks.com
>>
>>    
>>
>
>Doing nothing simply means taking the time to do something of value besides
>producing something for sale.
>
>e.g. being there for someone.
>
>
>Harry
>
>  
>
I'm being there for someone. I get paid to go swimming and bowling with 
people. Brag Brag That kind of nothing is OK but I'd much rather crack 
the great mysteries of the cold fision, cheap space propulsion and world 
poverty.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 17 02:19:12 2005
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From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk
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Subject: Why the method is important to CF
Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 10:18:13 +0100
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(Written yesterday late, off line)
Dear Vo and CF'ers

I don't want to patronise you and teach how to do research but as a person
with one foot in academia and one foot in my old stamping ground I know how
both worlds work. Like my faith in things such as democracy I have faith in
academia and education because getting them on your side you have the
ultimate ally.

Now the situation with CF is similar to the situation with Jesus, he had his
true believers and sceptics. Unlike experiments his vocation wasn't doing
tricks and miracles on demand like a circus artist so when handed over to
the Pharisees and Pilate he didn't play ball so they crucified him. 

*You* have to play ball with the Pharisees and Pilates in the establishment
though. 

Now, once again, in any quorum there is a spectrum of people from true
believers to pathological sceptics and if you are right (with an experiment
not so much with a theory), you can convert the lot.

On having killed good faith by poorly performing experiments (pesky things!)
your only *calling card* is a conjecture/hypothesis summary in a few pages
or less. This gets some of that spectrum of people. Giving them a graph and
data is no use if they cannot produce it *simply*. Writing a scientific
paper is not like writing a patent where one has to be 'skilled in the art'
you must be absolutely precise right down to spoon-feeding for a really
contentious subject area.

My advice, if you will take it, is cut the theatricals (the lobbying, the
power politics) and get down to work on repeatable experiments PLUS guiding
hypothesis for test.

When you produce papers (remember these are you *calling cards* and a bad
title is going to kill it) try to steer clear of CF, LENR, Elemental
Transmutation and go for a title that will get them reading. This is human
nature.

Look at me (I'm in a lot better position that you), when I produce in
internal school symposia bound volumes (the first step to peer review and
publication) I give titles such as "Thermoelectric conversion with magnetic
fluids". I water it down and break it to them easily. The bright ones will
spot where I am headed and a few will come to me and say "have you got any
results yet?"... "Yes, 100% REPRODUCIBLE, I can give you materials, part
numbers and suppliers, come and have a look at the experiment. I agree with
you it's subtle, a more conclusive experiment would be cooling with one
reservoir. We'll waiting before going noisy on this." 

Now with this approach I have contacts at very good universities Oxford (a
very high ranking academic and an extremely bright research fellow), UMIST,
Queen Mary, Southampton, the Defence Establishment and more who are waiting
but won't jump ship yet (careers to think about). The relationship with my
supervisors gets better too - I am going from a position of ambivalence to
being an asset. 

Even in this little institution, I may fancy myself a bit, and sometimes not
think much of the department but I DO HAVE SOMETHING TO LEARN FROM THEM -
the methodology of doing research. They are not a bad bunch and when I get
them on board I will then approach the said universities and start bringing
in the pathological types.

I put it to you that CF has a *management* problem. You're going about
things in the wrong manner not least the scientific method. The management
has to reach out and stop ghettoising itself, lobbying at the highest levels
with no beef, attract new blood, publications and funding. However all the
'bling' and flash and fuss you've made has probably killed it for you. High
profile academics with good work in the past won't help you nor superstars
(what have they done since is the cry). Academics over the hill are seen as
nutty - remember Eric Laithwaite! You want good working, busy academics in
their prime - these are the ones setting the agenda. 


I'm just trying to help. One day if I can help academically or financially I
would. I have sufficient inkling now to believe that there might be a
mechanism within the lattice and it is not totally nuts though, you should
agree, *conjecture* for most people who haven't been able to replicate the
experiments.


Just be patient and work within the system.
The real politics in science is convincing your peers.
R.


.......................................
Website
http://luna.bton.ac.uk/~roc1
.......................................

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Whoa! Me is feelin' it. Me haffy go now.
ROFL.
(Actually I'm an Essex boy with an accent that flits between minor public
school, Church of England, SE London, Inner Bromley, Hounslow Asian,
Bangladeshi East End, Mancunian, 1st generation middle class black
(parents), and any other influence I subconsciously pick up) 
 

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The Right (wing) Reverend R. O. Cornwall Preacheth to Choir.

Sort of a Sermon on The Mount. (High Horse that is).  

Keep those cards and letters coming in, folks!   :-)

Frederick
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<DIV>The Right (wing) Reverend R. O. Cornwall Preacheth to Choir.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Sort of a Sermon on The Mount. (High Horse that is).&nbsp;&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Keep those cards and letters coming in, folks!&nbsp;&nbsp; :-)</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Frederick</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
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As one of the nuts not covered with quite enough
chocolate for your tastes, I have a couple of
comments on this subject.  I read the papers on
your thermoelectric research and I must say it
looks quite promising.  These papers were written
in a style slightly less opaque than the standard
technical acadamese, but your concepts come 
through anyway.

However, it seems as if this whole thing could be
summed up as the CF researchers have results with
no theory, whereas you have a theory with no results.

M.


_______________________________________________
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 17 03:41:24 2005
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Ah Fred,
You got that one off your chest. You feel better for that now. 
Have a nice day Fred.
Remi.
(No returns? I've really got to go. I may lurk but like Darth Vader you'll
feel my presence.)

Why the method is important to CF
Frederick Sparber
Sat, 17 Sep 2005 03:09:32 -0700
The Right (wing) Reverend R. O. Cornwall Preacheth to Choir.
 
Sort of a Sermon on The Mount. (High Horse that is).  
 
Keep those cards and letters coming in, folks!   :-)
 
Frederick
.......................................
Website
http://luna.bton.ac.uk/~roc1
.......................................

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(sorry responded twice Michael sometimes it picks up vortex other times the
sender)
Michael,
No I do have results. It's a little arcane with this dependent independent
flux stuff. I need to make it better and more robust but there is definitely
an effect 100% reproducible.

I haven't formally written the stuff up but I can give part numbers,
materials and suppliers. 

Sincerely if you have suggestions on the style of the papers I'd be all
ears. One of my supervisors did say that scientific writing is a skill that
one learns for life.

I know it has been a long time but first projects are usually difficult
births. Looking back I have and probably still am making the experimental
procedure difficult. I've had no guidance (or very little) and not much to
bounce ideas off. This should change as I get more into the university
system. I need to assemble a good team. Finding the right people and place
is always difficult.

All the best,
I keep saying this is the last email. I'll lurk and subscribe when compelled
which ought to be real soon with vortex :) 
R.

-----Original Message-----
From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On
Behalf Of Michael Foster
Sent: 17 September 2005 11:32
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: RE: Why the method is important to CF


As one of the nuts not covered with quite enough
chocolate for your tastes, I have a couple of
comments on this subject.  I read the papers on
your thermoelectric research and I must say it
looks quite promising.  These papers were written
in a style slightly less opaque than the standard
technical acadamese, but your concepts come 
through anyway.

However, it seems as if this whole thing could be
summed up as the CF researchers have results with
no theory, whereas you have a theory with no results.

M.


_______________________________________________
Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
The most personalized portal on the Web!

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Reply-To: <public CraigHaynie.com>
From: "Craig Haynie" <public CraigHaynie.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Some experts believe global warming is causing stronger   hurr icanes
Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 06:07:28 -0500
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> If I understand the thread correctly, Craig Haynie wrote that global
> warming ". . . should be dismissed. Non-verifiable assertions
> should not be
> considered. They are not credible if there's no evidence to
> back them up."
> (He is talking about global warming, right?)

No, I was referring to the idea that global warming created a stronger
hurricane that destroyed New Orleans.

Craig Haynie


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 17 04:11:37 2005
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------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

http://www.grist.org/

" there aren't too many studies on this kind of thing. Which is exactly why researchers in England embarked upon one. They fed human volunteers their regular diet with an addition of 200 grams of baked beans (bleagh) and then gathered and analyzed their gaseous emissions. The range of CO2 emission was 25 to 116 milliliters in 24 hours, about two to three shot glasses worth. Not very high. Our digestive process is less gaseous than that of cows, the notorious methane producers, because we have a completely different stomach arrangement and different intestinal flora."

Or:

http://www.useless-knowledge.com


Is Jed a frequent flyer on this airline?

http://www.useless-knowledge.com/1234/feb/article091.html
Hooters Air, an airline started by the restaurant chain famous for chicken wings and buxom waitresses, has begun service from Atlanta to Myrtle Beach, S.C. 

At about $130 for a one-way ticket between Atlanta and Myrtle Beach, Hooters' fares are in line with competitors. So far there is no indication that competing airlines will go tit- for-tat and hire Penthouse pets and Playboy centerfolds as fight attendants. 

Every flight will feature two "Hooters Girls" in tight T-shirts and orange short-shorts who are there as eye candy. Regular flight attendants will take care of safety and serve snacks, according to company officials. No chicken wings or hamburgers will be served -- only peanuts and pretzels."
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8
Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

<HTML style="FONT-SIZE: x-small; FONT-FAMILY: MS Sans Serif"><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=windows-1251">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<P>
<DIV><A href="http://www.grist.org/">http://www.grist.org/</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>"&nbsp;there aren't too many studies on this kind of thing. Which is exactly why researchers in England embarked upon one. They fed human volunteers their regular diet with an addition of 200 grams of baked beans (bleagh) and then gathered and analyzed their gaseous emissions. The range of CO2 emission was 25 to 116 milliliters in 24 hours, about two to three shot glasses worth. Not very high. Our digestive process is less gaseous than that of cows, the notorious methane producers, because we have a completely different stomach arrangement and different intestinal flora."<BR></DIV>
<DIV>Or:</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://www.useless-knowledge.com">http://www.useless-knowledge.com</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Is Jed a frequent flyer on this airline?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<P><A href="http://www.useless-knowledge.com/1234/feb/article091.html">http://www.useless-knowledge.com/1234/feb/article091.html</A></P>
<P>Hooters Air, an airline started by the restaurant chain famous for chicken wings and buxom waitresses, has begun service from Atlanta to Myrtle Beach, S.C. <BR><BR>At about $130 for a one-way ticket between Atlanta and Myrtle Beach, Hooters' fares are in line with competitors. So far there is no indication that competing airlines will go tit- for-tat and hire Penthouse pets and Playboy centerfolds as fight attendants. <BR><BR>Every flight will feature two "Hooters Girls" in tight T-shirts and orange short-shorts who are there as eye candy. Regular flight attendants will take care of safety and serve snacks, according to company officials. No chicken wings or hamburgers will be served -- only peanuts and pretzels."</P></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8--


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 17 05:31:29 2005
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell mindspring.com>
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R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk wrote:

"My advice, if you will take it, is cut the theatricals (the lobbying, the
power politics) . . ."

Who are you talking about? The only people I know who lobby or engage in any power politics are the opponents of cold fusion such as Zimmerman. CF researchers never do that sort thing, although I wish they would. (I disagree with you on that score.)

You are giving advice that everyone follows already. As for your other advice, that we "try to steer clear of CF, LENR, Elemental Transmutation and go for a title that will get them reading" I think that is silly. The reader will see what we are talking about before he finishes the abstract. Are you suggesting we should should try to snare stupid readers who do not recognize transmutation when they see it?

- Jed





From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 17 05:36:27 2005
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Mitchell Swartz writes:

"Furthermore, some present  day cold fusion devices can produce more excess power (several watts), even though in the hands of Dr. Storms and Jed Rothwell and their company . . ."

Storms and I do not have a company. I have no connection to the company that Storms works with.

If Swartz's claims about his devices and his excess heat are as unreliable as his statements about me, we can dismiss him out of hand.

- Jed



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 17 06:33:50 2005
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At 08:35 AM 9/17/2005, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>Mitchell Swartz writes:
>
>"Furthermore, some present  day cold fusion devices can produce more 
>excess power (several watts), even though in the hands of Dr. Storms and 
>Jed Rothwell and their company . . ."
>
>Storms and I do not have a company. I have no connection to the company 
>that Storms works with. .....



"Storms and I do not have a company."

   ROTFLOL.    With all due respect, this is a laughable attempt at 
'plausible deniability'
when in fact Storms and Rothwell are (and have long been) long-linked at 
their hips,
for example at the (misnamed) LENR site - which is a company.

As but one (1) example, an admission was seen when it was revealed that the 
late Eugene Mallove
was irritated about their systematic censorship at the (misnamed) LENR site.
In response, Jed admitted, "It is our web site".

"Subject: Storms/Rothwell censorship
'This is known as science by politics -- it is disgusting.  Storms doesn't 
have leg to stand on and he knows it." -  - Gene'"
Rothwell: "Storms and I disagree, obviously. It is our web site, not 
Gene's, so we get to decide."
                                                                 ============
[Mon, 23 Aug 2004, vortex-L eskimo.com, Re: LENR-CANR editorial policy; 
underlined for emphasis]


  Nor is this 'plausible deniability' apparently isolated. Rather, it 
appears to be their SOP.
  Similarly,  Ed Storms also has a history of claiming he 'works alone' 
even when others have given him money, support and equipment.
   For example, confer:
   "Dr. Storms is not currently engaged in research in this field as a 
"solitary endeavor" nor is he a "lone garage scientist"
     nor is he a "lone scientist" working on his own. ...."
      http://www.makezine.com/03/interview/

    Q.E.D.

         "Overly organized research is confining, and guaranteed to produce 
nothing new" - Tio Holtzman




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 17 07:52:21 2005
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Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 08:53:48 -0600
From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
Organization: Energy K. Systems
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I have found it impossible to have a discussion with Dr. Swartz because 
no matter what is said, he will not change his mind.  Nevertheless, for 
those people who read Vortex, Jed and I have no business relationship. 
The website is a mutual effort for the benefit of the scientific 
community. It is not a company.  Saying that the website is misnamed is 
just as pointless as for me to say that Dr. Swartz is misnamed. Also, 
the charge of censorship, which Swartz is obsessed with, is getting very 
old.  Both Jed and I have told Swartz that anything he submits to the 
website will be placed on the website.  We have no reason to censor his 
work. In addition, if he knows of any paper that is not on the site, 
which he thinks should be, he only needs to send a copy to Jed.

Ed

Mitchell Swartz wrote:

> At 08:35 AM 9/17/2005, Jed Rothwell wrote:
> 
>> Mitchell Swartz writes:
>>
>> "Furthermore, some present  day cold fusion devices can produce more 
>> excess power (several watts), even though in the hands of Dr. Storms 
>> and Jed Rothwell and their company . . ."
>>
>> Storms and I do not have a company. I have no connection to the 
>> company that Storms works with. .....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Storms and I do not have a company."
> 
>   ROTFLOL.    With all due respect, this is a laughable attempt at 
> 'plausible deniability'
> when in fact Storms and Rothwell are (and have long been) long-linked at 
> their hips,
> for example at the (misnamed) LENR site - which is a company.
> 
> As but one (1) example, an admission was seen when it was revealed that 
> the late Eugene Mallove
> was irritated about their systematic censorship at the (misnamed) LENR 
> site.
> In response, Jed admitted, "It is our web site".
> 
> "Subject: Storms/Rothwell censorship
> 'This is known as science by politics -- it is disgusting.  Storms 
> doesn't have leg to stand on and he knows it." -  - Gene'"
> Rothwell: "Storms and I disagree, obviously. It is our web site, not 
> Gene's, so we get to decide."
>                                                                 
> ============
> [Mon, 23 Aug 2004, vortex-L eskimo.com, Re: LENR-CANR editorial policy; 
> underlined for emphasis]
> 
> 
>  Nor is this 'plausible deniability' apparently isolated. Rather, it 
> appears to be their SOP.
>  Similarly,  Ed Storms also has a history of claiming he 'works alone' 
> even when others have given him money, support and equipment.
>   For example, confer:
>   "Dr. Storms is not currently engaged in research in this field as a 
> "solitary endeavor" nor is he a "lone garage scientist"
>     nor is he a "lone scientist" working on his own. ...."
>      http://www.makezine.com/03/interview/
> 
>    Q.E.D.
> 
>         "Overly organized research is confining, and guaranteed to 
> produce nothing new" - Tio Holtzman
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 17 08:07:39 2005
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Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 11:06:35 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell mindspring.com>
Reply-To: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
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Mitchell Swartz writes:

> "Storms and I do not have a company."
>
> ROTFLOL.    With all due respect, this is a laughable attempt at 'plausible deniability' when in fact Storms and
> Rothwell are (and have long been) long-linked at  their hips, for example at the (misnamed) LENR site - which
> is a company.

No, it is not a company. It is not incorporated and it has no legal status whatever. Also, no bank account, by the way. That has been annoying, because people have occasionally sent me contributions in the form of checks made out to "LENR-CANR.org" I had to ask for replacement checks made out to me.

My lawyer tells me it would expensive and a pain in the butt to incorporate LENR-CANR.

I would be honored to work for any company associated with Ed Storms, but I do not.


> As but one (1) example, an admission was seen when it was revealed that the  late Eugene Mallove was irritated
> about their systematic censorship at the (misnamed) LENR site. In response, Jed admitted, "It is our web site".

I did not "admit" that. I assert it with pride. It is actually my web site. That is, my property. I pay $25 a month for it. However, Storms and Britz contributed an enormous amount of effort to establish the database, and many others including Terry Blanton contributed hours of effort. Others contributed cash. I am very grateful to all.

Needless to say, the authors who wrote the papers contributed the most. Each paper represents months or years of effort.


> Rothwell: "Storms and I disagree, obviously. It is our web site, not 
> Gene's, so we get to decide."

I stand by that! I pay the 25 bucks, I do the work, so I get to decide. Of course I must be careful to not alienate or upset the authors, or they will stop sending papers. So far, none of them have voiced complaints, except Swartz. I guess you can't satisfy everyone.

- Jed



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Edmund Storms wrote:

> In addition, if [Swartz] knows of any paper that is not on the site, 
> which he thinks should be, he only needs to send a copy to Jed.

Actually, Swartz tried to send me a paper on a CD-ROM, but I could not read it. I have had difficulty reading CD ROMs from other people too, including Storms. (Perhaps because that computer was defective. It died a couple months ago.)

Anyway, Swartz and others should please send papers by e-mail, or, if the paper is too large (over 10 MB), upload them to a web site. If you do not have a web site, I can set up an "anomalous FTP" section of LENR-CANR, or find some other way to let you upload directly.

Papers seem to be getting longer with more graphics, so this is becoming a problem. I encourage authors to include graphics and photos, by the way. Also, readers enjoy the "Experiments" section, so you should send separate photos of equipment.

- Jed



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 17 08:37:07 2005
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From: "Jones Beene" <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
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Subject: OT: New twist on "Nemesis"
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>From pox to vox to velox... covering a lot of OT nova-informatio 
quasimodo:

In a intriguing new twist to the "companion star" idea (Nemesis) 
there is a new, more benign and more accurate (potentially 
precise) theory, soon to be released in book form, which asserts 
that the companion may be much closer - so that the "period" - the 
so called "great year" is only 24,000 solar years. Some of this 
has apparently been on PBS recently - did anybody catch it?

This hypothesis has many implications, and forfeits the "mass 
extinction" proximate-cause in favor of numerous more exact 
instances of cause-and-effect - with one closer companion object - 
not necessarily a star - could be a proto-star. The actual period 
of earth's prior mass extinctions never really matched up 
precisely with a regular cycle anyway (although it was close).

[historical note]  Luis Alvarez, one of the great unsung 
scientific heroes of Western culture, at first regarded the 
discernment of a 26 million year extinction cycle as erroneous and 
ludicrous.  Later a colleague, Richard Muller, convinced him that 
the second star was a red or brown dwarf which orbits Sol, 
disturbing the Oort cloud and so forth - and the discrepancies in 
timing have been rationalized and largely ignored ever since - 
largely based on Alvarez's huge reputation as a genius..

 Perhaps in the bigger picture, "nemesis" may not be a single 
companion at all [this is not necessarily Cruttenden's view] 
Obviously no real cycle can be "approximate" and must have the 
high precision of any rotating system - which is simply absent 
from the 26 million naive approach of a single "nemesis" - 
consequently we may (or may not) need to look elsewhere for the 
"exact" mass extinction cause.

Perhaps it is an "overlay" to the 24,000 year "great year" of this 
new book (which I haven't gotten hold of yet) and the real 
mass-extinction cause is a three-body interaction, with yet 
another unknown stellar companion, which is on a more eccentric 
orbit, such that the approximate 26 million year problem is 
rectified with high precision as a three body interaction.

John Latini (johnlat verizon.net), Backyard and Armchair 
Astronomer, writes:

New book coming out  -"Lost Star of Myth & Time" by  Walter 
Cruttenden

I received an advance copy of this book and found it was filled 
with thought provoking and fascinating theories that weaved 
astronomy, archeology, physics and history together. It also put 
forth an interesting theory on how the subtle influence of 
magnetic fields of stars may affect human behavior for better or 
worse, and supported this with research conducted at UCLA.

The primary idea in this book is that the approximate 26,000 year 
cycle of the precession of the Earths axis, (which is suppose to 
be caused by the Moon and Suns pull), is really caused by an 
elliptical orbit which our entire solar system travels along, 
while orbiting an unknown star or planetary body. This orbit after 
an adjustment for acceleration, is actually 24,000 years, and 
supposedly is mentioned repeatedly in ancient cultures, which were 
obsessed with the stars and constellations.

Mr. Cruttenden offers a nice serving of formulas & calculations to 
support his theory. Being a backyard astronomer with a telescope 
and having a great interest in the nature of the Cosmos, I have 
found this book offers a new way to look at the sky above us, in 
addition to all the information available from modern science. It 
may be that Walter Cruttenden has discovered a bridge between 
Oriental and Western Astronomy, and opened a door to a new area of 
knowledge, that will show a more vital and intimate connection 
between humankind and the Cosmos we live in, than is generally 
known. There is also a wonderful companion DVD available, that I 
purchased, which graphically demonstrates the primary theory in 
this book and explores ancient cultures. It is magnificently 
narrated by James Earl Jones. 

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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jed Rothwell" <jedrothwell mindspring.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 17, 2005 11:19 AM
Subject: How to send papers to LENR-CANR.org


> Edmund Storms wrote:
>
>> In addition, if [Swartz] knows of any paper that is not on the site,
>> which he thinks should be, he only needs to send a copy to Jed.
>
> Actually, Swartz tried to send me a paper on a CD-ROM, but I could not 
> read it. I have had difficulty reading CD ROMs from other people too, 
> including Storms. (Perhaps because that computer was defective. It died a 
> couple months ago.)
>
> Anyway, Swartz and others should please send papers by e-mail, or, if the 
> paper is too large (over 10 MB), upload them to a web site. If you do not 
> have a web site, I can set up an "anomalous FTP" section of LENR-CANR, or 
> find some other way to let you upload directly.
>
> Papers seem to be getting longer with more graphics, so this is becoming a 
> problem. I encourage authors to include graphics and photos, by the way. 
> Also, readers enjoy the "Experiments" section, so you should send separate 
> photos of equipment.
>
> - Jed

There you go Dr. Swartz, no more excuses.  Send Jed your ICCF-10 paper and 
he'll publish it.  It would be convient to be able to download the Swartz 
ICCF-10 paper from lenr-canr.org.  A simple question to Dr. Swarts, is this 
paper that you have repeatedly requested to be published by Jed on 
lenr-canr.org avaiabble on your own website?  If not, why not?  That would 
be a simple way to publish it to the world, and then Jed could easily 
download it and publish it with your permission. 

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John Coviello writes:

> A simple question to Dr. Swarts, is this 
> paper that you have repeatedly requested to be published by Jed on 
> lenr-canr.org avaiabble on your own website? . . .  That would 
> be a simple way to publish it to the world, and then Jed could easily 
> download it and publish it with your permission. 

Yup. That's the simplest method. Plus, that way the author gets to fiddle with the Acrobat conversion settings, which can be . . . trying.

By the way, for Acrobat conversions I recommend "PDF Converter Professional 3" from ScanSoft. I guess we should not make commercial endorsements here, but this program is much better than the alternatives I have tested. It edits directly in Acrobat format, it converts from Acrobat into Word or WordPerfect format, and it does a great job converting PowerPoint slides. I think I reconverted all LENR-CANR PowerPoint slide collections with it.

- Jed



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Much of Cruttenden's strong scientific argument for the "great 
year" is online:

http://www.binaryresearchinstitute.org/ComparisonPaper.pdf


Is this part of Mike Carrel's premise that the earth would 
otherwise be entering into the next ice-age, were it not for the 
effects of global warming?

Excuse me if I got that premise wrong, but this is interesting in 
the context of Cruttenden's findings. But with the Caveat below.

Let's say that "Big Ben" represents the past 24,000 years of 
geological history, with 12:00 being the coldest part of an 
ice-age and 6:00 being the hottest part of the green-age. We know 
that the last ice-age ended 12,000 years ago. That would be 3:00 
on Ben's face. Which puts today's time at about 9:00 ... or just 
entering the next cold spell.

By that standard, global warming is not such a bad thing...

....except, as we know from earthly seasons, the progression is 
NOT linear at all. There are many strong blips along the way - 
such as a mini-ice age here and a hot-dry spell there. And this 
non-linearity would be amplified on a longer cycle.

Consequently .... in the big-picture.... the "great year," there 
is the equivalent of an "Indian Summer" instead of the linear 
progression, then WOOPS... global warming will accentuate that 
blip in the progression dramatically ... with catastrophic 
results. Maybe that is the "hint" which Katrina is whispering in 
our ear.... maybe not. But should we not err on the side of 
caution?

My vote is... global warming is real.... and even if it could 
forestall the probelms of an early ice age, the downside risk to 
humanity could be far worse than anyone can imagine - should a 
"runaway" greenhouse effect coincide with a "great year warming 
blip". We can't affod to risk that. Do not give the Luddite 
critics of global warming more ammunition than they deserve, lest 
they should foolishly shoot all of us in the foot.... or worse.

Jones 

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Subject: Re: CF Is the mechanism really Nuclear?
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At 10:33 PM 9/16/2005,  Edmund Storms wrote:
>Mitchell Swartz wrote:
>
>>At 04:13 PM 9/16/2005, Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk wrote:  Now people exist on a spectrum from 
>>>>true believer to pathological sceptic to
>>>>form a voting quorum. The most rewarding ones are those who were dead
>>>>against you but change. Now how are you going to bring these people on 
>>>>board
>>>>with what - experiments that only TBs can seem to get right and no 
>>>>mechanism
>>>>to even discuss or communicate your ideas?
>>
>>Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>:
>>"We have repeatable experiments, which have been described in peer 
>>reviewed journals. Dr. Swartz even operated one at ICCF-10 to which peers 
>>were invited. None showed up.  As for an explanation, a useful one would 
>>be very great to have.  However, explanations generally follow 
>>experiment.  In other fields, money is spent observing what happens when 
>>X, Y or Z is done to the system and from the response, a theory is 
>>developed.  Unfortunately, these days people get money because they have 
>>a theory and then do X, Y and Z to see if it is correct."
>>
>>Dr. Storms is inaccurate.
>>It is NOT true that "Dr. Swartz even operated one at ICCF-10 to which 
>>peers were invited. None showed up".  In fact, to the contrary,
>>during the week long demonstration (which yield circa 290 to 250% excess 
>>heat when compared to an ohmic control), many peers
>>did show up; more than two hundred on Tuesday afternoon alone!  The 
>>demonstration was in the MIT electrical engineering building
>>and many MIT people came (as well as scores of others).
>
>I apologize if I was misinformed.  I was told at the time, and Peter makes 
>the point in his introduction to the ICCF-10 Proceedings, that although 
>people from MIT were invited, only a few students showed up. I'm glad to 
>learn that some did see the demonstration.  Did this experience on their 
>part change the attitude at MIT?



1. Apology accepted. Since neither you nor Peter had opportunity to come on 
Tuesday during the largest open house,
and thereafter did not come during the rest of week at the open 
demonstration of cold fusion,
  then your purported "(being) misinformed" is possible.

     "Everything in the universe contains flaws; ourselves included.
      Even God does not attempt perfection in His creations.
      Only mankind has such foolish arrogance."
                                -  Cogitor Kwyna


  ============================================================

2. Obviously yes.  The Cold Fusion Colloquium at MIT in 2005 and the review 
by the DOE [second review]
precisely came BECAUSE of the wide-open public demonstrations of cold 
fusion by ourselves,
by John Dash and Dennis Cravens.  Before these open working demonstrations, 
there were only the
same printed reports and slides which had been available since 1989.
  The open demonstrations changed the landscape.

   Perhaps someday you will courageously join in and given an open 
long-term view of one of
your working cold fusion devices, too?

   Let me know; let all vortex know, and we will come to see your 
anticipated, albeit tardive,
  public demonstration.

       Dr. Mitchell Swartz




>>The demonstration was written up as Swartz. M., "Can a Pd/D2O/Pt Device 
>>be Made Portable to Demonstrate
>>the Optimal Operating Point?", ICCF-10 (Camb. MA), Proceedings of 
>>ICCF-10,  (2003).
>>Furthermore, scores of people have witnessed the subsequent 
>>demonstrations (which are now in a subsequent 'generation'
>>of devices). For example, the distinguished Prof. Brian Josephson saw 
>>that same cold fusion cell operated more than a year later
>>(when it yielded circa 140% excess heat when  compared to an ohmic control).
>>Who did not show up during that week was the mainstream media.  Both the 
>>Boston Globe and Boston Herald were called by the late Dr. Eugene Mallove,
>>but even though ads were put into the Boston Globe about the 
>>demonstration (by MIT Prof. Hagelstein), the MSM did not come.
>>So what.  More aware and less myopic members of the press DID come both 
>>there and to the recent MIT CF Colloquium.
>>In any case, as regards ICCF-10, hundreds of peers came, Dr. Storms - 
>>especially on Tuesday afternoon.
>>We enjoyed discussing physics and engineering with each and every 
>>inquisitive one of them.
>>Many pictures shown at the LENR and JTP web-sites 
>>http://world.std.com/~mica/jeticcf10demo.html
>>demonstrate just a glimpse of SOME of these important peers.
>>       Dr. Mitchell Swartz
>>
>>      "Science: Lost in its own mythos, redoubling its efforts when it 
>> has forgotten its aim."  -  Norma Cenva
>>
>>========================================================
>>
>>   Cold Fusion Times    http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html
>>     The journal of the scientific aspects of loading isotopic fuels into 
>> materials ISSN# 1072-2874
>>   JET Thermal Products   http://world.std.com/~mica/jet.html
>>      Working for Safe and More Efficient Heat Products to Serve You


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Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 12:55:48 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: Definition of "practical"
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At 10:53 AM 9/17/2005, Ed Storms wrote:
>I have found it impossible to have a discussion with Dr. Swartz because no 
>matter what is said, he will not change his mind.


  Edmund's projections again
  Ed refused to observe the Optimal operating points which I pointed out to 
him.
His own data demonstrated that precisely.  Of course, Ed still refuses to 
acknowledge them because there follows engineering.

   Proof (especially **,***):
1. Swartz, M.R. Optimal Operating Point Characteristics of Nickel Light 
Water Experiments.
in The Seventh International Conference on Cold Fusion. 1998. Vancouver, 
Canada: ENECO, Inc., Salt Lake City, UT.
2. ** Swartz, M.R., Generality of Optimal Operating Point Behavior in Low 
Energy Nuclear Systems. J. New Energy, 1999. 4(2): p. 218-228.
3. Swartz, M.R., et al. Importance of nondimensional numbers in cold 
fusion. in Symposium on New Energy. 1999. Salt Lake City, UT.
4. *** Swartz. M., G. Verner, "Excess Heat from Low Electrical Conductivity 
Heavy Water Spiral-Wound Pd/D2O/Pt
   and Pd/D2O-PdCl2/Pt Devices", ICCF-10 (Camb. MA), Proceedings of 
ICCF-10,  (2003).

   ==============================================

>  Nevertheless, for those people who read Vortex, Jed and I have no 
> business relationship.

   More rewriting of history, Ed?   The word was 'company'.
  definition:  Company; "1. an association with another"
                                  "2. a group of persons or 
things"              after Websters.

   Presumably, at least in his better moments, Dr. Storms is 'another" 
and/or a 'person'.

   "The answer is a mirror of the question" - Cogitor Kwyna


   ===============================================

>  The website is a mutual effort for the benefit of the scientific 
> community. It is not a company.

   See above.
  definition:  Company; "1. an association with another"
                                  "2. a group of persons or 
things"              after Websters.


  ===============================================


>  Saying that the website is misnamed is just as pointless as for me to 
> say that Dr. Swartz is misnamed.

    Thank you for the ad hominems, Edmund.

And to think it was because I  merely pointed out that the cold fusion 
nuclear reactions are NOT 'low energy".
It is true. They are high energy.  More than 20 Million electron volts for 
the heavy water --> helium reactions.


    Proof:
  Swartz, M.R., Phusons in nuclear reactions in solids. Fusion Technol., 
1997. 31: p. 228.

   Ed, you always throw these ad hominems when you have no science to 
support yourself.

   [Perhaps if I promised to vote Ed's anti-Bush politics, his appreciation 
of science
     and facts would improve?  ]


  ===============================================


>Also, the charge of censorship, which Swartz is obsessed with, is getting 
>very old.  Both Jed and I have told Swartz that anything he submits to the 
>website will be placed on the website.  We have no reason to censor his 
>work. In addition, if he knows of any paper that is not on the site, which 
>he thinks should be, he only needs to send a copy to Jed.
>
>Ed


   The issue was censorship by Ed Storms which has been proven -- even 
corroborated by the
late Dr. Eugene Mallove, by Prof. Peter Hagelstein, by several of those 
censored who contacted
me by email, and even by Jed Rothwell who corroborated such in private 
email to me.

   We previously sent copies of our papers to Jed [in hand, by CD-ROM, by 
email, etc.]
who admitted that Edmund Storms censored EVEN their titles.
Incredibly, thereafter, Mr. Rothwell demanded to be able to EDIT them.
Jed was given PDF files which he could not edit, and to this day, he has 
insisted that they be
in ASCII so that he may edit them.
That is, and was, not acceptable.  His computer programming background is 
irrelevant.
Over the years, Jed has made serious errors in his reports and 
translations, at least
twice confusing 'anode' and 'cathode' and more.

   And finally, the issues of LENR's previous censorship and past demands 
for editing are OLD ISSUES.

    It is time to move forward.


     "Learn from the past - don't wear it like a yoke around your neck"  - 
Cogitor Reticulus





>>  Nor is this 'plausible deniability' apparently isolated. Rather, it 
>> appears to be their SOP.
>>  Similarly,  Ed Storms also has a history of claiming he 'works alone' 
>> even when others have given him money, support and equipment.
>>   For example, confer:
>>   "Dr. Storms is not currently engaged in research in this field as a 
>> "solitary endeavor" nor is he a "lone garage scientist"
>>     nor is he a "lone scientist" working on his own. ...."
>>      http://www.makezine.com/03/interview/
>>    Q.E.D.
>>         "Overly organized research is confining, and guaranteed to 
>> produce nothing new" - Tio Holtzman





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From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: Definition of "practical"
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At 11:06 AM 9/17/2005, Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com> wrote:
>Mitchell Swartz writes:
>
> > "Storms and I do not have a company."
> >
> > ROTFLOL.    With all due respect, this is a laughable attempt at 
> 'plausible deniability' when in fact Storms and
> > Rothwell are (and have long been) long-linked at  their hips, for 
> example at the (misnamed) LENR site - which
> > is a company.
>
>No, it is not a company.

Yes it is.

This thread began with Jed's mis-definition of 'practical'.

Now the thread suffers from his mis-definition of 'company'.

I vote for what Webster's DENOTES.

  definition:  Company; "1. an association with another"
                                  "2. a group of persons or 
things"         [after Websters]

     Q.E.D.

   Jed, if English is not your first language, you might consider getting a 
dictionary.

   "The answer is a mirror of the question" - Cogitor Kwyna




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From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: How to send papers to LENR-CANR.org
Cc: "John Coviello" <johnwc patmedia.net>,
        Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
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At 11:42 AM 9/17/2005, "John Coviello" <johnwc patmedia.net> wrote:
>There you go Dr. Swartz, no more excuses.  Send Jed your ICCF-10 paper and 
>he'll publish it.  It would be convient to be able to download the Swartz 
>ICCF-10 paper from lenr-canr.org.  A simple question to Dr. Swarts, is 
>this paper that you have repeatedly requested to be published by Jed on 
>lenr-canr.org avaiabble on your own website?  If not, why not?  That would 
>be a simple way to publish it to the world, and then Jed could easily 
>download it and publish it with your permission.
>Also, the charge of censorship, which Swartz is obsessed with, is getting 
>very old.  Both Jed and I have told Swartz that anything he submits to the 
>website will be placed on the website.  We have no reason to censor his 
>work. In addition, if he knows of any paper that is not on the site, which 
>he thinks should be, he only needs to send a copy to Jed.
>
>Ed


John,

  Thank you for your interest and misconceptions.
  It is a pain to respond to this nonsense again, but so be it.

   First, as in the past, any serious scientist/researcher/student on 
vortex who wants a copy of our papers
  need only send me an email.  Many are available on pdf, and for the next 
week or so
  I will accommodate these requests (as before).


   Second, the issue was censorship by Ed Storms, which has been proven -- 
even corroborated by the
late Dr. Eugene Mallove, by Prof. Peter Hagelstein, by several of those 
censored who contacted
me by email, and even by Jed Rothwell who corroborated such in private 
email to me
lament that he [Jed] did not have control over Edmund.

   We previously sent copies of our papers to Jed and Ed [in hand, by 
CD-ROM, by email, etc.]
and in the end, until a certain historian was contacted about 2 years later,
Edmund Storms censored EVEN THEIR titles.  Nota bene: Even the titles of 
our 3 papers at ICCF-10.
And we were not alone, by the way.

   Third, incredibly, thereafter, Mr. Rothwell demanded to be able to EDIT 
them.
Jed was given PDF files which he could not edit, and to this day, he has 
insisted that they be
in ASCII so that he may edit them. That is, and was, not acceptable.
His computer programming background is irrelevant.
Over the years, Jed has made serious errors in his reports and 
translations, at least
twice confusing 'anode' and 'cathode' and more.


    Although YOU and others may not take accuracy seriously, I (and we) do.

   One more important point:  Finally, the issues of LENR's previous 
censorship
   and their past demands for editing the papers of other scientists are 
OLD and PROVEN ISSUES.

     It is time to move forward, albeit with a bit more accuracy.


     "Learn from the past - don't wear it like a yoke around your neck"  - 
Cogitor Reticulus






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Subject: Re: How to send papers to LENR-CANR.org
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mitchell Swartz" <mica world.std.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "John Coviello" <johnwc patmedia.net>; "Mitchell Swartz" 
<mica world.std.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 17, 2005 1:04 PM
Subject: Re: How to send papers to LENR-CANR.org


> At 11:42 AM 9/17/2005, "John Coviello" <johnwc patmedia.net> wrote:
>>There you go Dr. Swartz, no more excuses.  Send Jed your ICCF-10 paper and 
>>he'll publish it.  It would be convient to be able to download the Swartz 
>>ICCF-10 paper from lenr-canr.org.  A simple question to Dr. Swarts, is 
>>this paper that you have repeatedly requested to be published by Jed on 
>>lenr-canr.org avaiabble on your own website?  If not, why not?  That would 
>>be a simple way to publish it to the world, and then Jed could easily 
>>download it and publish it with your permission.
>>Also, the charge of censorship, which Swartz is obsessed with, is getting 
>>very old.  Both Jed and I have told Swartz that anything he submits to the 
>>website will be placed on the website.  We have no reason to censor his 
>>work. In addition, if he knows of any paper that is not on the site, which 
>>he thinks should be, he only needs to send a copy to Jed.
>>
>>Ed
>
>
> John,
>
>  Thank you for your interest and misconceptions.
>  It is a pain to respond to this nonsense again, but so be it.
>
>   First, as in the past, any serious scientist/researcher/student on 
> vortex who wants a copy of our papers
>  need only send me an email.  Many are available on pdf, and for the next 
> week or so
>  I will accommodate these requests (as before).
>
>
>   Second, the issue was censorship by Ed Storms, which has been proven -- 
> even corroborated by the
> late Dr. Eugene Mallove, by Prof. Peter Hagelstein, by several of those 
> censored who contacted
> me by email, and even by Jed Rothwell who corroborated such in private 
> email to me
> lament that he [Jed] did not have control over Edmund.
>
>   We previously sent copies of our papers to Jed and Ed [in hand, by 
> CD-ROM, by email, etc.]
> and in the end, until a certain historian was contacted about 2 years 
> later,
> Edmund Storms censored EVEN THEIR titles.  Nota bene: Even the titles of 
> our 3 papers at ICCF-10.
> And we were not alone, by the way.
>
>   Third, incredibly, thereafter, Mr. Rothwell demanded to be able to EDIT 
> them.
> Jed was given PDF files which he could not edit, and to this day, he has 
> insisted that they be
> in ASCII so that he may edit them. That is, and was, not acceptable.
> His computer programming background is irrelevant.
> Over the years, Jed has made serious errors in his reports and 
> translations, at least
> twice confusing 'anode' and 'cathode' and more.
>
>
>    Although YOU and others may not take accuracy seriously, I (and we) do.
>

Of course I take accuracy very seriously.  Why wouldn't I?  What is the 
point of publishing inaccurate information?

I've read your complaints about Jed not publishing your ICCF-10 paper on 
lenr-canr.org for well over one year now on Vortex.  I think it is fair to 
ask Jed that the original PDF (unedited) version of the paper be published 
on his website.  I believe that almost always Jed just publishes the papers 
on his website as they are given to him.  The editing happens when a paper 
is from a foreign source and difficult to understand and Jed edits them to 
make them easier to read, with the author's permission of course.

It is well past time to put up or give up regarding publishing your paper 
online.  Just send Jed the PDF version of your ICCF-10 paper today and give 
him permission to post it, and if Jed follows through the controversy will 
be over forever, problem solved.  Jed, should be fair and accept Mitchell's 
paper as is and just publish it.  To make it easier, perhaps upload the 
paper to the server on your website and give Jed the URL (even if you don't 
want to make it public).

This controversy can be solved very easily by just a few simple steps.  The 
last thing this field needs is senseless infighting.  This infighting is not 
helpful to our mutual goals of seeing cold fusion recognized and developed 
for commercial purposes.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 17 10:34:46 2005
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Mitchell Swartz writes:

> > example at the (misnamed) LENR site - which
> > > is a company.
> >
> >No, it is not a company.
> 
> Yes it is.

Oookay . . . Where is it incorporated? By who? It sure wasn't me.



> This thread began with Jed's mis-definition of 'practical'.
> 
> Now the thread suffers from his mis-definition of 'company'.
> 
> I vote for what Webster's DENOTES.
> 
>   definition:  Company; "1. an association with another"
>                                   "2. a group of persons or 
> things"         [after Websters]

Ah. I see. Well this is not what most native speakers of English would assume Swartz meant in this context, but okay, if you substitute meaning #2, then LENR-CANR is a company. It is also an assemblage, complement, cadre, squad (but not in the military sense!), a fraternity (but not associated with any college or university), a sodality, a coterie and a clique (except that anyone can join). Yes, we must speak by the card, or equivocation will undo us.

Oh, and by the way, we have Prince Albert in a can, so someone should let him out.

Such childish nonsense!

- Jed



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From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: How to send papers to LENR-CANR.org
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At 01:25 PM 9/17/2005, John Coviello wrote:

>>   First, as in the past, any serious scientist/researcher/student on 
>> vortex who wants a copy of our papers
>>  need only send me an email.  Many are available on pdf, and for the 
>> next week or so
>>  I will accommodate these requests (as before).


>"Of course I take accuracy very seriously.  Why wouldn't I?  What is the 
>point of publishing inaccurate information?
>[ .... threats, demands, rants, bowing to Rothwell's editing and 
>censorship removed .... ]
>This controversy can be solved very easily by just a few simple 
>steps.  The last thing this field needs is senseless infighting.  This 
>infighting is not helpful to our mutual goals of seeing cold fusion 
>recognized and developed for commercial purposes."


   I am not certain what your goal is as you keep trying to rewrite history 
and facts,
  but ours remains accuracy, good science and applied engineering.

  1.  The past censorship and demand for editing at the (misnamed) LENR 
site is not 'controversy' but fact.

   2. The recent corrections of inaccuracy are not 'infighting' but are a 
most reasonable response.

    Also, for the record, your post is surprising because I responded to 
your private email
      (per the above, requesting papers by private email as was posted).

     Best wishes.






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At 01:34 PM 9/17/2005, Jed Rothwell protests a bit too much, and wrote:
>Mitchell Swartz writes:
> > > example at the (misnamed) LENR site - which
> > > > is a company.
> > >
> > >Rothwell: No, it is not a company.
> >
> > Swartz: Yes it is.  [Webster's definition removed by Rothwell because 
> it disputes his nonsense]
>
>Rothwell: "Oookay . . . Where is it incorporated? By who? It sure wasn't me."



   More rewriting of history, Jed?
    The word was 'company'.

    You protest too much, suggesting something underneath.   Buy a dictionary.

  definition:  Company; "1. an association with another"
                                  "2. a group of persons or things" [after 
Webster's Dictionary]


  definition: Corporation:; "1. a group of merchants or traders united in a 
trade guild"
                                     "2. a body formed or authorized by law 
to act a a single person"
                                                                                    [after 
Webster's Dictionary]


  The word being 'company', Q.E.D.



  "The answer is a mirror of the question" - Cogitor Kwyna





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John Coviello writes:

> I think it is fair to 
> ask Jed that the original PDF (unedited) version of the paper be published 
> on his website.

Of course! No problem. I usually ask for the Word or WordPerfect version so that I can easily pull out the Abstract for the indexing system, and so that I can add a heading showing where the paper was originally published. (Obviously I would not add the heading if the author did not want me to.) However, I can now do that sort of thing with the ScanSoft "PDF Converter" program, so I no longer need the Word versions.

Also, I have found that some Acrobat conversions cannot be read by all readers, especially foreign readers who have old versions of Acrobat. I have to redo the conversion, eliminating fancy formatting, obscure options, strange margin settings that cause text to overlap and disappear, and foreign fonts such as Cyrillic or the Japanese "degree" sign. Some PDF files are gigantic, and can easily be reduced in size. One was ~100 MB and it reduced to ~1 MB when I converted it again, with no visible changes. I think the text was bitmapped.

The Acrobat standard appears to be improving. I see fewer problems and incompatibilities these days.


> The editing happens when a paper 
> is from a foreign source and difficult to understand and Jed edits them to
> make them easier to read, with the author's permission of course.

Not just their permission! I require their assistance. For Japanese authors, the original Japanese text is a big help.


> It is well past time to put up or give up regarding publishing your paper 
> online.  Just send Jed the PDF version of your ICCF-10 paper today and give 
> him permission to post it . . .

Please upload it and give me the URL. My e-mail is limited and it overflows. When I know that many authors are planning to send in papers, I leave the office system on, collecting e-mail every 10 minutes.


> This controversy can be solved very easily by just a few simple steps.

I do not think Swartz wants to solve this. He will not take "yes" for an answer. I uploaded the titles of this ICCF10 papers as soon as he asked me too, but he still complains about that. He wants to attract sympathy by portraying himself as a martyr and victim of my brutal censorship. That tin-foil halo he wears looks kind of beat up to me.

- Jed



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Mitchell Swartz writes:

> The word was 'company'.

Ah, but it should have been "squad" (non-military) or "sodality" (but not in the sense used by Roman Catholic Church).


> Buy a dictionary.

As you see, I have both a dictionary and a thesarus already.

This resembles nothing so much as a "Monty Python" skit. Which reminds me, Monty Python fans will be interested to learn that many of the famous skits such as "the cheese shop" and "the dead parrot" were inspired by Roget's Thesarus.

- Jed



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------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Perhaps a thorough review of Hess's Law (sacrosanct) with all of
the electrochemical, aqueous , gas phase, and chemisorption reactions involved,
would reveal that fighting over "air pie" is an exercise in futility.

Throw in the contribution of Cosmic Radiation creating "Cold Fusion" which cannot
be ruled out without running the experiments with shielding rivaling a SNO or Super-Kamiokande neutrino experiment.

Frederick
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8
Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

<HTML style="FONT-SIZE: x-small; FONT-FAMILY: MS Sans Serif"><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=windows-1251">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<P>
<DIV>Perhaps a thorough review of Hess's Law (sacrosanct) with all of</DIV>
<DIV>the electrochemical, aqueous , gas phase, and chemisorption reactions involved,</DIV>
<DIV>would reveal that fighting over "air pie" is an exercise in&nbsp;futility.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Throw in the contribution of Cosmic Radiation creating "Cold Fusion" which cannot</DIV>
<DIV>be ruled out without running the experiments with shielding rivaling a SNO or Super-Kamiokande neutrino experiment.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Frederick</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<P></P></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8--


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RC Macaulay writes:

> Gave me a chuckle and if the problem were not so serious I may even smile. 
> Back when our children were in grade school, the local schools integrated in 
> the 1960's, I caught flack from commenting  " you people believe 
> integration will lift them up , I have news for you, they will drag you down 
> to their level". They are their own worse enemy.

I could not agree more! That is exactly what happened here in Atlanta, where my daughters went to public school. Most of her black classmates ended up in hellholes such as Georgia Tech, Stanford, or the UGA honors course on full scholarship. The class valedictorian was a black kid and the most disreputable threat you could imagine. State chess champion, national math tournament winner, and he ended up in Harvard Business School, that den of iniquity! I hear he has become an investment banker. What would you expect? These people always end up in the gutter! I told him he should get serious about math and go to MIT or Georgia Tech, but did he listen? No, they never do. Imagine wasting that kind of talent putting together international mergers. It is no better than selling dope on the street corner.

These people may be *your* worst threat, but they are no threat to me. <chuckle, chuckle>

Oh, and by the way, people who make fun regional accents and dialects are a disgrace. People who denigrate a person because he speaks the way his mother taught him, and preserves the heritage of generations, are unkind brutes. If you had any appreciation of the English language, cultural history, or linguistics, you would know that U.S. black dialects are among the oldest, most complex, subtle and beautiful forms of the language. The Gullah and Appalachian dialects in particular are living history, being relics of Elizabethan English. During the recent disaster in Mississippi, some of the victims being interviewed used language and grammar you will not find this side of Shakespeare. (And the dialects of New Orleans are a national treasure.) It is most unfortunate that people who speak these dialects, and other Southern forms, are often ridiculed and subjected to prejudice. As a result, many of them go to training classes where they are taught to lose these dialects, which are now endangered and will probably be lost. I understand why these people do this, for their own benefit, but for the nation’s culture heritage it is tragic. It is like cutting down rare species of trees and planting common pine trees.

Many regional dialects in Japan are also in sharp decline, which is heartbreaking. Worldwide, many minority languages are being wiped out. Even languages such as Gallic are endangered. You cannot blame the individuals who shed these languages, but you sure can blame ignorant, intolerant boobs who poke fun at them. Why don't you to go a museum and laugh at the pictures of naked women? Or go to a university and ridicule the the archeologists.

- Jed




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At 02:03 PM 9/17/2005, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>Rothwell:   ...  I usually ask for the Word or WordPerfect version so that 
>I can easily pull out the Abstract for the indexing system

>Rothwell:   ...  ... I can add a heading showing where the paper was 
>originally published. ...

>Rothwell:   ...  I have found that some Acrobat conversions cannot be read 
>by all reader...

>  Rothwell:   ...  "I have to redo the conversion, eliminating fancy 
> formatting, obscure options, strange margin settings ....

>Rothwell:   ...  I see fewer problems and incompatibilities these days. ...

>Rothwell:   ...  I require their assistance. For Japanese authors, the 
>original Japanese text is a big help. ....

>Rothwell:   ...  ... My e-mail is limited and it overflows. ....



   "Any man who asks for greater authority does not deserve to have it"
              - Xavier Harkonnen


   ============================================================

>  Rothwell:   ...  I uploaded the titles of this ICCF10 papers as soon as 
> he asked me too ....


   Utter BS.  It took two years of the titles being censored -- AND the 
inquiry of a historian.
   Not even the efforts of Peter Hagelstein [who ran ICCF-10] were successful.
   In fact, one suspects that the titles of others are still not listed, or 
have only been added after long delay.


   "Conflict prolonged over an extended time period tends to be 
self-perpetuating
     and can easily plunge out of control"    --  Tlaloc



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From: "John Coviello" <johnwc patmedia.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>, "Mitchell Swartz" <mica@world.std.com>
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Subject: Re: How to send papers to LENR-CANR.org
Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 15:33:39 -0400
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mitchell Swartz" <mica world.std.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 17, 2005 1:50 PM
Subject: Re: How to send papers to LENR-CANR.org


> At 01:25 PM 9/17/2005, John Coviello wrote:
>
>>>   First, as in the past, any serious scientist/researcher/student on 
>>> vortex who wants a copy of our papers
>>>  need only send me an email.  Many are available on pdf, and for the 
>>> next week or so
>>>  I will accommodate these requests (as before).
>
>
>>"Of course I take accuracy very seriously.  Why wouldn't I?  What is the 
>>point of publishing inaccurate information?
>>[ .... threats, demands, rants, bowing to Rothwell's editing and 
>>censorship removed .... ]
>>This controversy can be solved very easily by just a few simple steps. 
>>The last thing this field needs is senseless infighting.  This infighting 
>>is not helpful to our mutual goals of seeing cold fusion recognized and 
>>developed for commercial purposes."
>
>
>   I am not certain what your goal is as you keep trying to rewrite history 
> and facts,
>  but ours remains accuracy, good science and applied engineering.
>
>  1.  The past censorship and demand for editing at the (misnamed) LENR 
> site is not 'controversy' but fact.
>
>   2. The recent corrections of inaccuracy are not 'infighting' but are a 
> most reasonable response.

Let's get beyond all this back and forth about the papers.  I can sympathize 
with you Dr. Swartz about not being able to get your papers published on 
LENR-CANR.org over the years.  But it's all water under the bridge at this 
point.  You can easily solve this situation.  Upload the papers and give Jed 
the URLs and give him permission to publish them.  Simple enough.  That 
should take all of 15 minutes and then we can be done with this ongoing 
discussion forever.  The history of the situation can remain as it is, but 
the papers will finally be published and the controversy will be over.  What 
is preventing you from giving Jed the papers today and ending this 
controversy?  You seem to be dragging it on for reasons unknown?!?

How much sympathy can a third party like myself have when you have the 
avenue to publish your papers and Jed has agreed not to edit them and 
publish them as is, if only you would provide them to him?  Time to put it 
up there or stop complaining to all of us.  Upload the papers this afternoon 
and give Jed the URLs, then the onus is on Jed, if he doesn't publish them 
then we all know you've been right all along.  Just do your part and let's 
see Jed follow through.  I can't imagine why Jed wouldn't publish your 
papers?!?  His site is made stronger by providing more cold fusion related 
papers from credible sources like yourself.  Do us all a favor and either 
provide the papers to Jed today or tell us exactly why you can't.





From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 17 12:36:08 2005
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At 02:17 PM 9/17/2005, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>Mitchell Swartz writes:
>
> > The word was 'company'.
>
>Rothwell:  Ah, but it should have been "squad" (non-military) or 
>"sodality" (but not in the sense used by Roman Catholic Church).


Wrong. The sentence was posted to counteract your erroneous 
attempted-minimization
of William Beaty's suggestion.

At 03:11 PM 9/16/2005, Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>  wrote:
>William Beaty wrote:
>> > are many commercial uses for a 10 to 100 Watt device. Even a 10 W heater
>> > would be useful for some niche applications, such as keeping equipment 
>> warm
>> > in the Arctic.
>>How about milliwatts and microwatts.  Isn't 
>>Eveready/Duracell/Rayovac/Panasonic
>>a billion-dollar industry?
>
>J. Rothwell: "Yeah. In the first post I listed 100 watts thermal or 10 
>watts thermoelectric as the minimum practical level, but I guess even a 
>fraction of a watt thermoelectric would be useful. And one-watt thermal 
>would make a dandy pocket warmer / gonad eraser. (Imagine the late night 
>TV ads for that!)
>It is hard to imagine what use anyone might have for 100 or 200 mW of 
>intermittent thermal power. That's how much most present-day CF devices 
>produce. Not practical.
>- Jed"


To which it was responded, supporting William Beaty's correction:
Swartz:  "Although "It is hard to imagine what use anyone might have for 
100 or 200 mW of intermittent thermal power" is true
in the short run, over a longer amount of time, many 10s of kilojoules 
excess energy (and more) can be wrought.
  Furthermore, some present  day cold fusion devices can produce more 
excess power (several watts),
even though in the hands of Dr. Storms and Jed Rothwell and their company, 
using their techniques,
more paucity of excess power generation is observed, as they point out."

   After all the 'hot air' from the LENR site, it is apparent that
   Jed's definitions are both wrong (practical AND company)  AND he 
protests too much.


    ==================================================


> > Buy a dictionary.
>
>Rothwell:  "As you see, I have both a dictionary and a thesarus already."


    It has use beyond that of a paperweight.


   "If life is but a dream, then do we only imagine the truth?
     No!  By following our dreams we make our own truth."  - Selim Wormrider






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Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 15:51:04 -0500
From: Harry Veeder <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: A philisophical thought.
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Wesley Bruce wrote:

> Harry Veeder wrote:
> 
>> OrionWorks wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>>> From: Harry Veeder
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> The philosophy underpinning free energy research does not
>>>> subscribe to the principle that it is possible to get
>>>> something FROM nothing. It subscribes to the principle
>>>> that it is possible and SOMETIMES preferable to get
>>>> something BY DOING nothing.
>>>> 
>>>> Harry
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> "By DOING nothing"?
>>> 
>>> If that were the case I think the entire planet would have been luxuriating
>>> in
>>> free energy a long time ago.
>>> 
>>> Grade: Incomplete.
>>> 
>>> Try again.
>>> 
>>> Regards,
>>> Steven Vincent Johnson
>>> www.OrionWorks.com
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> Doing nothing simply means taking the time to do something of value besides
>> producing something for sale.
>> 
>> e.g. being there for someone.
>> 
>> 
>> Harry
>> 
>> 
>> 
> I'm being there for someone. I get paid to go swimming and bowling with
> people. Brag Brag That kind of nothing is OK but I'd much rather crack
> the great mysteries of the cold fision, cheap space propulsion and world
> poverty.
> 


I was reluctant to provide an example because what counts as "doing nothing"
is really a personal matter.

Harry

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At 03:33 PM 9/17/2005, John Coviello wrote:
>Let's get beyond all this back and forth about the papers.  .....
  [demands, threats, harassment, whining removed to improve bandwidth]


Mr. Coviello:

    Despite your sudden upsurge of very childish demanding,
I posted what was necessary to obtain the preprints to our papers at this 
time.

    Exactly what part of 'individual rights' do you not understand?
      [Coincidentally, today is the 218th Anniversary of the US 
Constitution, BTW.]

    Exactly what part of 'private email' did you not understand?

    Clearly, unfortunately, you appear unable to follow directions.

    As stated before: "(A)s in the past, any serious 
scientist/researcher/student on vortex
  who wants a copy of our papers  need only send me a private email.
  Some of these papers are available on pdf, and for the next week or so
  I will accommodate these requests."

         Dr. Mitchell Swartz  <mica world.std.com>










From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 17 16:04:10 2005
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Robin wrote:

> What would it add to the cost of a sq. meter, 
> to sandwich the lens material between two flat
> sheets of polycarbonate, to add structural rigidity?

Thanks for the interest, Robin.  This is the perfect
question.  Polycarbonate is a pricey plastic, shatter
resistant, but kind of saggy.  Therefore, I would guess
the cost would go up about 20 times the price of my
super cheap fresnel lens film.  I used to buy quite a
bit of polycarbonate, but haven't priced it lately, so
it's just an estimate.

There's more cost than just money, too.  There's about
5% loss by reflection per surface.  With four more surfaces
it's almost 20% of the available solar energy gone.

Conversely, imagine this cheap stuff stapled to a cheap
wooden or maybe tubular plastic frame.  You blast it with
a heat gun or perhaps even hold it over an open fire 
and the film shrinks tight as a drum, giving you a flat
lens probably more rigid than if you sandwiched it between
thicker materials. Cheap, cheap, cheap. Did I mention cheap?

Now since you probably want to hold something still at the
focus of the fresnel, imagine the lens as the base of a
pyramid and the apex of the pyramid as the focus. This is
a more or less upside down pyramid with the base aimed at the
sun and the apex near the ground.  This gives you a very
rigid open frame structure at very low cost. Cheap. I like
cheap.

I would estimate that the optimum fresnel film thickness for
a one square meter device to be 50 microns or about .002 inch.
Even very large arrays would probably never need the film to
be thicker than 125 microns or about .005 inch.  This means
cheap and easy transport of the lenses because they weigh
almost nothing.

Yep, you can roll 'em up and mail 'em.  Hope I'm not boring all
you vorts with my over-enthusiastic fresnel blather.

M.



_______________________________________________
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Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 19:28:51 -0500
From: Harry Veeder <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: More test of Lifters
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Colin Quinney wrote:

<snip>
> What Schnurer suggested was that
> the whole lifter assembly be enclosed inside a Faraday cage.
> 
> By "whole assembly" he refers to the batteries that power the [also]
> enclosed high voltage power supply plus the Lifter itself.
> 
> By "Faraday cage" he meant a light weight metalized Mylar cage or sphere
> that totally encloses the above assembly to prevent any ions escaping, and
> to prevent any electric fields "extending" outside it's walls.

A faraday cage also keeps ambient electric fields from entering the cage.
For that reason, I would think it is more desirable to leave the power
supply outside the cage then inside the cage.

> John never argued that there was no gravitational interaction. His argument
> was only this; that if there was any gravitational effect, then unless the
> above procedure was implemented, no balance scale on earth could discern it-
> from the overwhelming ion and coulomb artefacts.
> 
> We humans do have an amazing ability to fool ourselves when we "want to
> believe", (and I include myself :)


If we can fool ourselves, we can also cheat ourselves.

;-)

Harry

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Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 20:13:58 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell mindspring.com>
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Mitchell Swartz writes:

"As stated before: (A)s in the past, any serious 
scientist/researcher/student on vortex
  who wants a copy of our papers  need only send me a private email.
  Some of these papers are available on pdf, and for the next week or so
  I will accommodate these requests."

So, Mitch, you are saying that you will not upload the paper to your own site, but you will continue to complain that I am censoring you. Interesting.

Let's try this one. Suppose you e-mail the paper to Coviello, and he gives it to me, and I upload it. Would that be okay?

Ha, ha, ha, ha! Just kidding. Of course you will not do that.

This is all a mind game for you. You will continue to hide your work, and you will blame me for this. Go ahead! Frankly, I could not care less what you do or say. But you should realize that you are not fooling anyone with your childish, pathetic nonsense.

- Jed



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Michael Foster writes:

> Yep, you can roll 'em up and mail 'em.  Hope I'm not boring all
> you vorts with my over-enthusiastic fresnel blather.

Not a bit! Great stuff! I wish you could find a way to interest third-world development types in it.

- Jed



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At 08:13 PM 9/17/2005, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>Mitchell Swartz writes:
>
>"As stated before: (A)s in the past, any serious
>scientist/researcher/student on vortex
>   who wants a copy of our papers  need only send me a private email.
>   Some of these papers are available on pdf, and for the next week or so
>   I will accommodate these requests."
>
>Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>:
>So, Mitch, you are saying that you will not upload the paper to your own 
>site, but you will continue to complain that I am censoring you. Interesting.
>Let's try this one. Suppose you e-mail the paper to Coviello, and he gives 
>it to me, and I upload it. Would that be okay?
>Ha, ha, ha, ha! Just kidding. ... This is all a mind game for you.


   Like the word 'company', the sentence says EXACTLY what it says.
   This is more childish thinking, unfortunately characteristic of the Jedster.

  Although in the PAST the Storms/Rothwell team censored even the three 
titles of these
ICCF-10 papers (along with the titles of at least two others), those 
misplaced efforts
at their (misnamed and censored) LENR site are now moot.

     "As stated before: (A)s in the past, any serious
      scientist/researcher/student on vortex
       who wants a copy of our papers  need only send me a private email.
       Some of these papers are available on pdf, and for the next week or so
       I will accommodate these requests."

Most importantly, these 3 ICCF-10 papers will also be in the appropriate 
ICCF-10 Proceedings shortly,
thanks to the diligent work of Peter Hagelstein and others.

  For his running of ICCF-10 and his careful editing of the Proceedings, 
the cold fusion community
owes much to the hard-working efforts of Peter Hagelstein.


         Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>


      "Every large scale movement - political, religious, military -
         hinges upon epochal events."   -  Pitcairn Narakobe

========================================================

Dont forget. Today is the 218th Anniversary of the US Constitution

"The Constitution is the guide which I never will abandon"
-George Washington

"Almost all the world's constitutions are documents in which governments 
tell the people what their privileges are.
Our Constitution is a document in which 'We the people' tell the government 
what it is allowed to do. 'We the people' are free."
- Ronald Reagan

"The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the 
people,
it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government
  - lest it come to dominate our lives and interests."
- Patrick Henry

“The Constitution, on this hypothesis, is a mere thing of wax
in the hands of the Judiciary, which they may twist and shape into any form 
they please.”
­ Thomas Jefferson







From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 17 18:06:58 2005
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Subject: Re: Way-OT: Mo' de king's English
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Jed..
I didn't use the word black.. you did.    I have a neighbor, a friend for 35 
years. He happens to have dark skin than mine. He has a landscape business 
and he is also a pastor. Working together , the community helped him build a 
church in one of the most negative, crime ridden area towns because two bad 
guys from that town kidnapped a woman and her child off the parking lot 
after Sunday church and left the two to die of heat locked in the trunk. My 
neighbor ,the pastor, was rewarded by that community by their burning the 
church down 3 times over the 20 year period. My neighbor said all needed to 
be said...They dont want a church there.
Why?
 Jed..I'll give you the last word...
Richard
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jed Rothwell" <jedrothwell mindspring.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 17, 2005 1:59 PM
Subject: Re: Way-OT: Mo' de king's English


> RC Macaulay writes:
>
>> Gave me a chuckle and if the problem were not so serious I may even 
>> smile.
>> Back when our children were in grade school, the local schools integrated 
>> in
>> the 1960's, I caught flack from commenting  " you people believe
>> integration will lift them up , I have news for you, they will drag you 
>> down
>> to their level". They are their own worse enemy.
>
> I could not agree more! That is exactly what happened here in Atlanta, 
> where my daughters went to public school. Most of her black classmates 
> ended up in hellholes such as Georgia Tech, Stanford, or the UGA honors 
> course on full scholarship. The class valedictorian was a black kid and 
> the most disreputable threat you could imagine. State chess champion, 
> national math tournament winner, and he ended up in Harvard Business 
> School, that den of iniquity! I hear he has become an investment banker. 
> What would you expect? These people always end up in the gutter! I told 
> him he should get serious about math and go to MIT or Georgia Tech, but 
> did he listen? No, they never do. Imagine wasting that kind of talent 
> putting together international mergers. It is no better than selling dope 
> on the street corner.
>
> These people may be *your* worst threat, but they are no threat to me. 
> <chuckle, chuckle>
>
> Oh, and by the way, people who make fun regional accents and dialects are 
> a disgrace. People who denigrate a person because he speaks the way his 
> mother taught him, and preserves the heritage of generations, are unkind 
> brutes. If you had any appreciation of the English language, cultural 
> history, or linguistics, you would know that U.S. black dialects are among 
> the oldest, most complex, subtle and beautiful forms of the language. The 
> Gullah and Appalachian dialects in particular are living history, being 
> relics of Elizabethan English. During the recent disaster in Mississippi, 
> some of the victims being interviewed used language and grammar you will 
> not find this side of Shakespeare. (And the dialects of New Orleans are a 
> national treasure.) It is most unfortunate that people who speak these 
> dialects, and other Southern forms, are often ridiculed and subjected to 
> prejudice. As a result, many of them go to training classes where they are 
> taught to lose these dialects, which ar!
> e now endangered and will probably be lost. I understand why these people 
> do this, for their own benefit, but for the nationâ?Ts culture heritage it 
> is tragic. It is like cutting down rare species of trees and planting 
> common pine trees.
>
> Many regional dialects in Japan are also in sharp decline, which is 
> heartbreaking. Worldwide, many minority languages are being wiped out. 
> Even languages such as Gallic are endangered. You cannot blame the 
> individuals who shed these languages, but you sure can blame ignorant, 
> intolerant boobs who poke fun at them. Why don't you to go a museum and 
> laugh at the pictures of naked women? Or go to a university and ridicule 
> the the archeologists.
>
> - Jed
>
>
>
>
> 


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 17 18:26:16 2005
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Subject: Re: Intrinsic Electrolysis Cell OU or Big Error?
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With 2.5 volts   0.4 amperes equal 1.0 watt = 1.0 joule/second (2.5e18 electrons/second ) flowing through the cell 2.5e18 Hydrogen atoms are liberated at the cathode and 2.5e18 Oxygen atoms are liberated at the cathode. 

When two Hydrogen atoms combine to form H2,  4.53 eV per bond (7.242e-19 joule)
is liberated, and when two Oxygen atoms combine to form O2, 5.17 eV per bond (8.272e-19 joule) is liberated. 

2 H2 + O2 ----> 2 H2O + Energy  =  452,200 joule/mole (18 grams) H2O formed
= 904,400 joule/36 grams or 25,122 joule/ gram.

But, 2.5e18/2  x 7.242e-19 x sec =  1.0 joule = 1.0 watt for the H-H recombination

plus 2.5e18/2 x 8.272e-19 x sec =  1.03 joule  = 1.03 watt for the O-O recombination

resulting in 2.03 watts of "Free energy"  

even before the 2 H2 + O2 ----> 2 H2O recombination:

(6.64e-5 grams O2  + 4.15e-6 grams = 7.055e-5 grams H2O x 25,122 joule/gram 

= 1.772 watt-sec = 1.772 joules released.   

Not bad for 1.0 watt input, What???

Where is the error?

Frederick
  
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8
Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

<HTML style="FONT-SIZE: x-small; FONT-FAMILY: MS Sans Serif"><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=windows-1251">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<P>
<DIV>With 2.5 volts   0.4 amperes equal 1.0 watt = 1.0 joule/second (2.5e18 electrons/second ) flowing through the cell 2.5e18 Hydrogen atoms are liberated at the cathode and 2.5e18 Oxygen atoms are liberated at the cathode. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>When two Hydrogen atoms combine to form H2,&nbsp;&nbsp;4.53 eV per bond (7.242e-19 joule)</DIV>
<DIV>is liberated, and when two Oxygen atoms combine to form O2, 5.17 eV per bond (8.272e-19 joule) is liberated. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>2 H2 + O2 ----&gt; 2 H2O + Energy&nbsp; =&nbsp; 452,200 joule/mole (18 grams)&nbsp;H2O formed</DIV>
<DIV>= 904,400 joule/36 grams or 25,122 joule/ gram.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>But, 2.5e18/2 &nbsp;x 7.242e-19 x sec =&nbsp; 1.0 joule = 1.0 watt for the H-H recombination</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>plus 2.5e18/2 x 8.272e-19 x sec =&nbsp; 1.03 joule&nbsp; = 1.03 watt for the O-O recombination</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>resulting in 2.03 watts of "Free energy"&nbsp; </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>even before the 2 H2 + O2 ----&gt; 2 H2O recombination:</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>(6.64e-5 grams O2&nbsp; + 4.15e-6 grams = 7.055e-5 grams H2O x 25,122 joule/gram </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>= 1.772 watt-sec = 1.772 joules released.&nbsp;&nbsp; </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Not bad for 1.0 watt input, What???</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Where is the error?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Frederick</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp; </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<P></P></BODY></HTML>
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You been out dynamiting stumps again, Fred?
No error, at least no arithmetic error.  Was
this a trick question you used to give physics
students?

Your question hinges on what is probably an
erroneous assumption.  That assumption is that
the hydrogen and oxygen  are generated
in their nascent state as single atoms.  That
would simply require additional electrical
energy to emit the single atoms at the higher
energy state.

Since this is not what actually happens in real
electrolytic cells, can we not assume that either
the gasses are generated as diatomic molecules or
that they combine into diatomic molecules before
exiting the solid matrix of the electrodes?

Just my humble non-scientist opinion.

M.


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Is this more like it?

With 2.5 volts   0.4 amperes equal 1.0 watt = 1.0 joule/second (2.5e18 electrons/second ) flowing through the cell 2.5e18 Hydrogen atoms are liberated at the cathode and 
1.25e18 Oxygen atoms are liberated at the cathode. 

When two Hydrogen atoms combine to form H2,  4.53 eV per bond (7.242e-19 joule)is liberated, 

and when two Oxygen atoms combine to form O2, 5.17 eV per bond (8.272e-19 joule) 

is liberated. H2 + 0.5 O2 ----> H2O + Energy  =  452,200 joule/mole (18 grams).

But, 2.5e18/2  x 7.242e-19 x sec =  1.0 joule = 1.0  watt for the H-H recombination, 

plus 2.5e18/4 x 8.272e-19 x sec =  0.517 joule  = 0.517 watt for 

the O-O recombination resulting in 1.517 watts of "Free energy"  

even before the H2 + 0.5 O2 ----> H2O recombination:(3.32e-5 grams O2  + 4.15e-6 grams H2  = 

3.735e-5 grams H2O x 25,122  joule/gram = watt-sec = 0.9383 joules released.  

Net "Intrinsic OU " = ~ 1.517  joules ????

Frederick
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<HTML style="FONT-SIZE: x-small; FONT-FAMILY: MS Sans Serif"><HEAD>
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<DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Is this more like it?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>With 2.5 volts   0.4 amperes equal 1.0 watt = 1.0 joule/second (2.5e18 electrons/second ) flowing through the cell 2.5e18 Hydrogen atoms are liberated at the cathode and </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>1.25e18 Oxygen atoms are liberated at the cathode. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>When two Hydrogen atoms combine to form H2,&nbsp;&nbsp;4.53 eV per bond (7.242e-19 joule)is liberated, </FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>and when two Oxygen atoms combine to form O2, 5.17 eV per bond (8.272e-19 joule) </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>is liberated. H2 + 0.5 O2 ----&gt; H2O + Energy&nbsp; =&nbsp; 452,200 joule/mole (18 grams).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>But, 2.5e18/2&nbsp;&nbsp;x 7.242e-19 x sec =&nbsp;&nbsp;1.0 joule =&nbsp;1.0&nbsp; </FONT><FONT size=2>watt for the H-H recombination, </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>plus 2.5e18/4 x 8.272e-19 x sec =&nbsp;&nbsp;0.517 joule&nbsp; = 0.517 watt for </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>the </FONT><FONT size=2>O-O recombination </FONT><FONT size=2>resulting in&nbsp;1.517 watts of "Free energy"&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>even before the H2 + 0.5 O2 ----&gt; </FONT><FONT size=2>H2O recombination:(3.32e-5 grams O2&nbsp; + 4.15e-6 grams H2 &nbsp;= </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>3.735e-5 grams H2O x 25,122&nbsp; </FONT><FONT size=2>joule/gram = watt-sec = 0.9383 joules released.&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Net "Intrinsic OU " = ~ 1.517&nbsp; joules ????</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Frederick</DIV></DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 17 19:32:44 2005
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Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 22:31:53 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell mindspring.com>
Reply-To: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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RC Macaulay wrote:

"Jed..
I didn't use the word black.. you did."

Oh how clever of you. You talked about "school integration in the 1960s" but you did not mean black kids. You meant Martians. Martians "will drag you down to their level."

Let me remind you, and the readers here, what happened in 1962, and what this is all about. I was just a kid but I lived through it, my friends here in Atlanta lived through it, and we shall not forget. I mentioned the class valedictorian in my daughter's class. My daughter is no academic slouch. She graduated with honors from Cornell, but this kid ran rings around her, and so did many of the other black kids. Now what would have happened to that child if he had tried to go to our Atlanta neighborhood school in 1962? The law would have prevented him. He would have been forced to attend segregated schools, some of which were only open a half-day, because there was not enough room in the building for all the children. All of them were funded at a fraction of the level of the white schools. If his parents had defied the law, and tried to register him here, mobs of angry of people would have come out, and they would have tried to beat him to death.

And who were these angry mobs? They were people like RC Macaulay, who vowed they would not be "dragged down" by integration. "Segregation now, and forever." No black kid from Atlanta, no matter how brilliant, would have made it to Harvard back then.  He probably would not have made it to college. Now we send thousands to the best schools in the country.

That's what we are talking about. I am not exaggerating one tiny bit. You can read the history of the Atlanta schools anytime you like. We talk about injustice as it were in the distant past, or as if it was some abstract quality, that affected everyone on average perhaps, but only a little. "After all, how inconvenient was it to use a separate water fountain?" as one white woman put it not long ago. As if water fountains were the only issue. What these laws and customs did was to ruin the lives of millions of people right here in Atlanta. They cut off the creativity and potential of these people, depriving society of their contributions. Thousands and thousands of potential valedictorian chess champions and Nobel laureates ended up digging ditches all their lives. Many of them are still doing it -- still middle aged, their lives still blighted.

This was a monsterous injustice, and it was all the fault of people like you who opposed integration, and who oppose it still. And you have the gall to blame the victims!

- Jed



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Subject: Re: Intrinsic Electrolysis Cell OU or Big Error?
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Blame it and the recent vortex traffic on the full moon, Michael.  :-)

Frederick


> [Original Message]
> From: Michael Foster <michael.foster excite.com>
> To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> Date: 9/17/05 9:05:38 PM
> Subject: Re: Intrinsic Electrolysis Cell OU or Big Error?
>
>
> You been out dynamiting stumps again, Fred?
> No error, at least no arithmetic error.  Was
> this a trick question you used to give physics
> students?
>
> Your question hinges on what is probably an
> erroneous assumption.  That assumption is that
> the hydrogen and oxygen  are generated
> in their nascent state as single atoms.  That
> would simply require additional electrical
> energy to emit the single atoms at the higher
> energy state.
>
> Since this is not what actually happens in real
> electrolytic cells, can we not assume that either
> the gasses are generated as diatomic molecules or
> that they combine into diatomic molecules before
> exiting the solid matrix of the electrodes?
>
> Just my humble non-scientist opinion.
>
> M.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
> The most personalized portal on the Web!
>



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 17 19:34:35 2005
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You been out dynamiting stumps again, Fred?
No error, at least no arithmetic error. Was
this a trick question you used to give physics
students?

Your question hinges on what is probably an
erroneous assumption. That assumption is that
the hydrogen and oxygen are generated
in their nascent state as single atoms. That
would simply require additional electrical
energy to emit the single atoms at the higher
energy state.

Since this is not what actually happens in real
electrolytic cells, can we not assume that either
the gasses are generated as diatomic molecules or
that they combine into diatomic molecules before
exiting the solid matrix of the electrodes?

Just my humble non-scientist opinion.

M.

_______________________________________________
Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
The most personalized portal on the Web!


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 17 20:03:24 2005
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From: "Jones Beene" <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
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Subject: Tojan "Moon" Prediction
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Speaking of the Fred's full moon ramblings... now transposed to (Trojan =
asteroid --> virtual Trojan moon), no connection to the football team =
but a likely winner, nevertheless ;-)

I predict that the first extraterrestrial home for our evolutionary =
offspring - i.e. our robotic successors, will be named "Eureka".

Prediction #2. This will be the first outpost of Earth to declare  =
"independence" about the year 2175.

Is this a wild guess, a prophetic vision, SciFi ? No, it is actually an =
educated and=20
fairly astute guess, based on the following amalgamation of  =
information:

A "Trojan" asteroid  is defined as an object located at either of=20
the stable Lagrangian points (L4 or L5) of a larger object's=20
orbit. This is an ideal location for a very large manufactured=20
space station with a mass of several million tons, especially if=20
the asteroid contains lots of metals. Such a space station will=20
need to be manufactured over several centuries  by autonomous,=20
self-replicating robots. Mars' two moons are not amenable to large =
investment - as they are metal-poor and probably unstable - and earth's =
moon will be contested by many nations, and never be  allowed to either =
secede nor succeed, independently of man. Earth for some reason, has no =
viable Trojan asteroid as does Mars, which gets a lot more solar energy =
anyway.

Not only that - Get this - it is actually cheaper to land a  payload on =
Eureka than on our own moon or any of Mars' moons !!  Why?

The "slingshot" effect, which I won't get into now, allows a=20
payload to reach Mars for the nearly same fuel cost as reaching=20
our moons orbit BUT because the gravity of Eureka is so low and=20
Mars itself can be used for deceleration - the actual cost to LAND the =
payload is substantially less than for Luna - if time is not  important.

There are substantial asteroids located at either of the stable=20
Lagrangian points of the orbit of Mars. One is  known as Eureka,=20
discovered in 1990 at Palomar (by Levy of comet fame). The infrared=20
visual spectrum of composition is consistent with an evolved form=20
of achondrite called an angrite. IOW lots of metal ore which Mars'=20
moons lack. This asteroid is located deep within a stable=20
lagrangian zone of Mars, which is considered indicative of a=20
primordial origin - meaning the asteroid has most likely been in=20
this same orbit for much of the history of the solar system.

It is composed of pyroxene, a complex aluminous silicate of=20
calcium, iron, and magnesium, occurring in many igneous rocks=20
particularly those of basaltic composition. These metals will be=20
refined by the robotic space venturers, probably not ours but Chinese or =
Indian, using solar energy - probably starting about 2050. In 100 year =
they will have reduced  the asteroid to a strong and much larger =
framework of iron girders supporting a gigantic array of reflective =
aluminum mirrors for capturing solar energy - which is more intense =
there. It is likely that the  total area of solar mirrors focused on the =
sun will be larger than  the area of Mars as seen from Earth. IOW when =
the Trojan moon is in the  ideal position it will appear larger than =
Mars, even though its mass is a tiny fraction.

There is more to this, falling into the category of SciFi. However  I =
have a nearly completed 'most-probable' scenario.

Jones

Too bad Keith and Terry are not here any longer to compose a vo-cover of =
JJ Cale's "Cajun Moon"

    Trojan moon, where does your power lie
    As you move across the southern sky
    You took my 'bots way too soon
    What have you done, Trojan moon ?
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff background=3D""><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>Speaking of the=20
Fred's full moon ramblings... now transposed to (Trojan asteroid --&gt; =
virtual=20
Trojan moon), no connection to the football team but a likely winner,=20
nevertheless ;-)<BR><BR>I predict that the first extraterrestrial home =
for our=20
evolutionary offspring - i.e. our robotic successors, will be named=20
"Eureka".<BR><BR>Prediction #2. This will be the first outpost of Earth =
to=20
declare&nbsp; "independence" about the year 2175.<BR><BR>Is this a wild =
guess, a=20
prophetic vision, SciFi ? No, it is actually an educated and <BR>fairly =
astute=20
guess, based on the following amalgamation of&nbsp; =
information:<BR><BR>A=20
"Trojan" asteroid&nbsp; is defined as an object located at either of =
<BR>the=20
stable Lagrangian points (L4 or L5) of a larger object's <BR>orbit. This =
is an=20
ideal location for a very large manufactured <BR>space station with a =
mass of=20
several million tons, especially if <BR>the asteroid contains lots of =
metals.=20
Such a space station will <BR>need to be manufactured over several=20
centuries&nbsp; by autonomous, <BR>self-replicating robots. Mars' two =
moons are=20
not amenable to large investment - as they are metal-poor and probably =
unstable=20
- and earth's moon will be contested by many nations, and never be&nbsp; =
allowed=20
to either secede nor succeed, independently of man. Earth for some =
reason, has=20
no viable Trojan asteroid as does Mars, which gets a lot more solar =
energy=20
anyway.<BR><BR>Not only that - Get this - it is actually cheaper to land =
a&nbsp;=20
payload on Eureka than on our own moon or any of Mars' moons !!&nbsp;=20
Why?<BR><BR>The "slingshot" effect, which I won't get into now, allows a =

<BR>payload to reach Mars for the nearly same fuel cost as reaching =
<BR>our=20
moons orbit BUT because the gravity of Eureka is so low and <BR>Mars =
itself can=20
be used for deceleration - the actual cost to LAND the payload is =
substantially=20
less than for Luna - if time is not&nbsp; important.<BR><BR>There are=20
substantial asteroids located at either of the stable <BR>Lagrangian =
points of=20
the orbit of Mars. One is&nbsp; known as Eureka, <BR>discovered in 1990 =
at=20
Palomar (by Levy of comet fame). The infrared <BR>visual spectrum of =
composition=20
is consistent with an evolved form <BR>of achondrite called an angrite. =
IOW lots=20
of metal ore which Mars' <BR>moons lack. This asteroid is located deep =
within a=20
stable <BR>lagrangian zone of Mars, which is considered indicative of a=20
<BR>primordial origin - meaning the asteroid has most likely been in =
<BR>this=20
same orbit for much of the history of the solar system.<BR><BR>It is =
composed of=20
pyroxene, a complex aluminous silicate of <BR>calcium, iron, and =
magnesium,=20
occurring in many igneous rocks <BR>particularly those of basaltic =
composition.=20
These metals will be <BR>refined by the robotic space venturers, =
probably not=20
ours but Chinese or Indian, using solar energy - probably starting about =
2050.=20
In 100 year they will have reduced&nbsp; the asteroid to a strong and =
much=20
larger framework of iron girders supporting a gigantic array of =
reflective=20
aluminum mirrors for capturing solar energy - which is more intense =
there. It is=20
likely that the&nbsp; total area of solar mirrors focused on the sun =
will be=20
larger than&nbsp; the area of Mars as seen from Earth. IOW when the =
Trojan moon=20
is in the&nbsp; ideal position it will appear larger than Mars, even =
though its=20
mass is a tiny fraction.<BR><BR>There is more to this, falling into the =
category=20
of SciFi. However&nbsp; I have a nearly completed 'most-probable'=20
scenario.<BR><BR>Jones<BR><BR>Too bad Keith and Terry are not here any =
longer to=20
compose a vo-cover of JJ Cale's "Cajun Moon"<BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
Trojan&nbsp;moon, where does your power lie<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; As you =
move=20
across the southern sky<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; You took my 'bots way too=20
soon<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; What have you done, Trojan&nbsp;moon=20
?</FONT></BODY></HTML>

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Fresnel Dream
Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 13:07:43 +1000
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Michael Foster's message of Sat, 17 Sep 2005 19:03:06
-0400 (EDT):
Hi Michael,
[snip]
>resistant, but kind of saggy.  Therefore, I would guess
>the cost would go up about 20 times the price of my
>super cheap fresnel lens film.  I used to buy quite a
>bit of polycarbonate, but haven't priced it lately, so
>it's just an estimate.

Thanks, that's all I wanted.
[snip]
>Conversely, imagine this cheap stuff stapled to a cheap
>wooden or maybe tubular plastic frame.  You blast it with
>a heat gun or perhaps even hold it over an open fire 
>and the film shrinks tight as a drum, giving you a flat
>lens probably more rigid than if you sandwiched it between
>thicker materials. Cheap, cheap, cheap. Did I mention cheap?

Ok, but doesn't stretching it play havoc with the focal point?
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

In a town full of candlestick makers, 
everyone lives in the light,
In a town full of thieves, 
there is only one candle, 
and everyone lives in the night.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 17 20:21:40 2005
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Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 23:19:55 -0500
From: Harry Veeder <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: More test of Lifters
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Wesley Bruce wrote:

> Harry Veeder wrote:
> 
>> Evidence that lifters follow unconventional physics:
>> 
>> http://jlnlabs.imars.com/lifters/vacuum/index.htm
>> 
>> Harry
>> 
>> 
>> 
> That's convincing! We need to get a power source that will power the
> thing. Counting the power source & transformers into the payload
> capacity is the chalenge.I have some power plant power to weight data.
> I'll see what the calculations yeald.
> 

To get into space with a lifter it may not be necessary to have an onboard
power supply. One could transmit the power to the lifter using microwaves
or lasers from ground based power supplies.


Harry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 17 20:36:54 2005
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From: "Steven Vincent Johnson" <orionworks charter.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: <svj orionworks.com>
Subject: RE: Definition of "practical"
Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 22:35:41 -0500
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> From: Mitchell Swartz
>
> At 01:34 PM 9/17/2005, Jed Rothwell protests a bit too much, and wrote:
> >Mitchell Swartz writes:
> > > > example at the (misnamed) LENR site - which
> > > > > is a company.
> > > >
> > > >Rothwell: No, it is not a company.
> > >
> > > Swartz: Yes it is.  [Webster's definition removed by Rothwell because
> > it disputes his nonsense]
> >
> >Rothwell: "Oookay . . . Where is it incorporated? By who? It
> sure wasn't me."
>
>
>
>    More rewriting of history, Jed?
>     The word was 'company'.
>
>     You protest too much, suggesting something underneath.   Buy
> a dictionary.
>
>   definition:  Company; "1. an association with another"
>                                   "2. a group of persons or
> things" [after
> Webster's Dictionary]
>
>
>   definition: Corporation:; "1. a group of merchants or traders
> united in a
> trade guild"
>                                      "2. a body formed or
> authorized by law
> to act a a single person"
>
>                   [after
> Webster's Dictionary]
>
>
>   The word being 'company', Q.E.D.
>
>
>
>   "The answer is a mirror of the question" - Cogitor Kwyna
>
>

Not that I wish to get myself stuck in the middle of this "discussion":

I believe Jed has requested that he be able edit the formatting of papers
submitted because occasionally when he gets the text and accompanying
graphics the formatting is problematical. The information can be messed up.
Jed is forced to clean up the data up before it can be presented publicly.

It is also my understanding that Dr. Swartz is legitimately concerned over
the fact that allowing any kind of outside "editing" of his personal papers
opens him  and his work to the danger of external inaccuracies being
introduced, even if such introductions were completely unintentional.

The problem, as I see it, is that both perspectives have equal merit.

It also is reasonable to assume that papers and reports submitted in PDF
format are by their very definition BEYOND the point of needing additional
post-editing. It is after all one of the major reasons why PDF files are so
popular. The author(s) are saying: Here is -THE- final information.

There is however an unfortunate problem concerning the fact that not all PDF
documents and PDF readers are equal. There are different versions. If one
doesn't have the most current and/or robust PDF reader there is the distinct
possibility that one will not be able to open and read the contents of the
document as-is.

Speaking of formatting issues, often when I read posted comments originating
from Dr. Swartz I've noticed that the visual layout of his text can be
messed up. There can be HUGE indentations that make absolutely no sense.
Many sentences are broken in unexpected places and carried on the next line
or two lines down. This happens when I view Dr. Swartz's posts from my
on-line CHARTER email account. It happens when I read his posts at the
Vortex-l mail archive web site. It happens when I read his posts from my MS
Outlook application, as I am doing now. See the above UNFORMATTED text as
received by my Outlook mail program originating from Swartz. I have
performed no personal formatting of his text in an effort to clean up what
appear to be randomly introduced (and inappropriate) indentations. Please
correct me if I'm wrong, but I suspect that in Dr. Swartz' case this may be
due to the possibility that he is using a sophisticated text editor / word
processor like MS WORD, and that he is allowing that editor to format his
prose. The problem with following this approach to the exclusion of anything
else is that different email accounts and on-line lists receiving formatted
text can have a terrible time trying to interpret the internal formatting
code originating from an outside editor / word processor. It is precisely
this reason why I personally post in simple vanilla ascii format whenever
possible - and STILL my text can get messed up. While sending posts out in
vanilla ascii text may not be elegant it reduces the danger of unexpected
formatting snafus messing up the intent of my word.

While I can appreciate the fact that Dr. Swartz would like to maintain total
control over the content of his work (as would I over my own works), if the
occasional vort postings I read originating from him is any indication of
his formatting skills It does make me wonder about what kind of formatting
issues might exist in his PDF documents as well. I would have to suggest as
diplomatically as possible that he might want to avail himself to a good
editor, one who is obviously knowledgeable in the sciences, a
technical/science editor that Dr. Swartz can trust to carry out his intent
of his word.

I say this with DEEP personal irony as I know that I myself am occasionally
dyslexic. My "affliction" comes and goes at the oddest times. I do my best
to cover it up. I avail myself to all the electronic editing (and occasional
human) help I can get.

In conclusion it would seem to me that Dr. Swartz does not appear to trust
Jed (or Ed Storms?) to carry out the intent of his word and edit and/or
critique his work.

As for all the rest of the sniping that has gone on this weekend, more sauce
for the goose.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

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Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 14:21:53 +1000
From: Wesley Bruce <wesleybruce iinet.net.au>
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Harry Veeder wrote:

>Wesley Bruce wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Harry Veeder wrote:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>OrionWorks wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>>>>From: Harry Veeder
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>The philosophy underpinning free energy research does not
>>>>>subscribe to the principle that it is possible to get
>>>>>something FROM nothing. It subscribes to the principle
>>>>>that it is possible and SOMETIMES preferable to get
>>>>>something BY DOING nothing.
>>>>>
>>>>>Harry
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>"By DOING nothing"?
>>>>
>>>>If that were the case I think the entire planet would have been luxuriating
>>>>in
>>>>free energy a long time ago.
>>>>
>>>>Grade: Incomplete.
>>>>
>>>>Try again.
>>>>
>>>>Regards,
>>>>Steven Vincent Johnson
>>>>www.OrionWorks.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>Doing nothing simply means taking the time to do something of value besides
>>>producing something for sale.
>>>
>>>e.g. being there for someone.
>>>
>>>
>>>Harry
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>I'm being there for someone. I get paid to go swimming and bowling with
>>people. Brag Brag That kind of nothing is OK but I'd much rather crack
>>the great mysteries of the cold fision, cheap space propulsion and world
>>poverty.
>>
>>    
>>
>
>
>I was reluctant to provide an example because what counts as "doing nothing"
>is really a personal matter.
>
>Harry
>
>  
>
Most deffinately. Have fun doing the best nothing you can find. Bye.

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Subject: Re: More test of Lifters
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Harry Veeder wrote:

>Wesley Bruce wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Harry Veeder wrote:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>Evidence that lifters follow unconventional physics:
>>>
>>>http://jlnlabs.imars.com/lifters/vacuum/index.htm
>>>
>>>Harry
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>That's convincing! We need to get a power source that will power the
>>thing. Counting the power source & transformers into the payload
>>capacity is the chalenge.I have some power plant power to weight data.
>>I'll see what the calculations yeald.
>>
>>    
>>
>
>To get into space with a lifter it may not be necessary to have an onboard
>power supply. One could transmit the power to the lifter using microwaves
>or lasers from ground based power supplies.
>
>
>Harry
>
>  
>
That would work but is still quite massive the nasa plane that was 
powered like that had several dozen kg of stuff to do the reception and 
power control. It might work wit a lifter.

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For the Australian's out there the air car will be appearing on Beyond 
Tomorrow Wednesday 7.30 pm on channel seven. I have an article pending 
in Infinite Energy magazine about this car. http://www.beyond2000.com/

I don't know if the show will screen in New Zealand at the same time or 
some time later. Beyond Tomorrow may also screen on some channel, 
perhaps on cable, in Britton and the USA.

For those that are completely confused the air car uses compressed air 
to store energy. http://www.theaircar.com/ It can be recharged in three 
minutes and has the power and performance of a good Electric vehicle. 
I’ve argued that it’s compatible with cold fusion. See my article when 
it comes out.

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Wesley,

Given that liquid air can be produced safely in a vehicle owner's 
garage, and given that liquid air, due to the efficiency of heat 
pumps (COP =4) costs no more to produce that highly compressed 
air - maybe less, and is safer for vehicle occupants in the event 
of an accident, uses a lighter tank, has higher energy density, 
and so on.... why is an "air car" (i.e. highly compressed air as 
opposed to liquid air) preferable?

Obviously this is playing 'devil's advocate' - but can you counter 
these arguments in favor of liquid air ?

Jones

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Could you use your fresnel lens to get more electricity per unit area on a
photo voltaic cell? The objective of the lens would be to concentrate the
light rather than focus the light.

Harry

Michael Foster wrote:

> 
> Having said all this, I must add that I'm my own worst skeptic
> on whether any of this will be put to any practical advantage.
> It would require the participation of a large corporation or a
> government agency.  Simple, inexpensive, easily executed
> things are anathema to large corps. or governments, whose
> behavior is almost identical.
> 
> I am ready to provide millions of these fresnels whenever
> someone is actually willing to buy them.
> 
> M.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
> The most personalized portal on the Web!
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep 18 10:14:47 2005
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Jed Rothwell wrote:

The problem is, by the time the debate is fully settled
it may be too late to do stave off a catastrophe.

Alex Caliostro wrote:

it is already too late

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/science_technology/article312997.ece

Global warming 'past the point of no return'

By Steve Connor, Science Editor

Published: 16 September 2005

A record loss of sea ice in the Arctic this summer has
convinced scientists that the northern hemisphere may have
crossed a critical threshold beyond which the climate
may never recover. Scientists fear that the Arctic has
now entered an irreversible phase of warming which will
accelerate the loss of the polar sea ice that has helped
to keep the climate stable for thousands of years ...

Jones Beene wrote: (11 feb 05)

We are 15-25 years away from a "run-away" greenhouse
effect now.

Horace Heffner wrote:

Is this just a guess?

It seems to me entirely possible we may be a runaway
mode right now.  Measurements of the tundra surface show
methane release is increasing and the area of thawing
regions are increasing.  The Arctic is warming and the
warming produces a strong postitive feedback effect ...

Jones Beene wrote: (22 mar 05)

There is at least 400 gigatons of methane locked in
the frozen arctic tundra in Siberia, Canada, Alaska etc.
enough to start this devastating chainreaction on a global
scale - If the "runaway" scenario of local warming then
spreads uncontrollably across the northern hemisphere in
the late summer. Computer predictions suggest this will
happen within 20 years.

Hi All,

It's possible that 12,000 years ago solar radiation
markedly increased, and that we are now in a "warm room"
that could last another 20,000 years, based on the length
of the next to the last interglacial (two before ours).
Things in a warm room heat up.

I think global warming is real; but I don't know what are
the main driving forces.  William Ruddiman claims that
ancient forest clearance and rice paddies increased CO2
and methane levels starting 8000 years ago.

(A test of the overdue-glaciation hypothesis, William
F. Ruddiman, Stephen J. Vavrus, John E. Kutzbach,
Quaternary Science Reviews 24 (2005) 11

William F. Ruddiman (2005), Plows, Plagues, and
Petroleum:How Humans Took Control of Climate, Princeton
University Press)

One possible stopper is that melting the Arctic ice cap
would allow cold Arctic winds to deposit at least 50 feet
of "lake effect" snow over North America south to the Ohio
River each summer.   Reflection of solar radiation from the
snow would lower the temperature of Earth; and the snow
would stop only when the Arctic Ocean froze over again,
leaving a mile-thick sheet of ice over Cleveland as per
most of the last few hundred thousand years.  The ice
cover would help block methane release.

Another possible stopper is the diruption of the Gulf
Stream with large amounts of fresh water so that, as
described in the film "The Day After Tomorrow", very cold
air is drawn down from the troposphere quick freezing much
of the Northern Hemisphere (a plausible explanation for
finding frozen mammoths with slightly digested vegetation
in their stomachs).

Maybe we need to burn as much fossil fuel as possible to
try to get past the coming freeze.

Or we could stop using fossil fuels and hope for the best.
We could go to a methanol economy, making the methanol
from wood chips produced by stump cutting rapidly
growing poplars on tree farms.  We could use our existing
infrastructure -- tanks, pipelinces, "gas" stations, with
minor modifications to our engines.  We would thus stop
sending billions to people who want to kill us and enslave
our women.  Also, tree farming would provide many jobs.

Dusting vast stretches of the oceans with iron to increase
CO2 consumption may be a good idea.  The increasing
Himalayan rock face would remove existing CO2 as carbonates
in the runoff to be fixed by shell fish.  This may not
work if a deviation amplifying methane release is already
under way.

Jack Smith


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Subject: Re: Some experts believe global warming is causing stronger hurricanes
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Taylor,

One important thing you didn't mention - just in case we are not 
yet past "the point of no return" and can take remediative 
action - is that laboratoy tests show that methane traps as much 
as 20 times more IR (heat) than does CO2.

Consequently, if this is true in practice, then one ton of methane 
released from artic tundra is as devasting - in the context of 
global warming - as twenty tons of CO2 from a coal burning plant. 
Is it time to shift empahsis on where to take remediative action?

Which discussion also begs the question - if rising ocean levels 
cannot be stopped, then are we pouring-in good money after bad in 
New Orleans to repair levees that will soon fail from raising 
sea-levels anyway?

Triage may be necessary.

Jones 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep 18 11:53:23 2005
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Subject: man made steak
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Jed,

Check out PopSci Oct 2005, page 40.

"tissue engineers serve up a lab-bred meat as an alternative to cattle farming"

Perhaps they read your book?


s

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From: Standing Bear <rockcast earthlink.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, "RC Macaulay" <walhalla@cvtv.net>
Subject: Re: New Orleans; the aftermath
Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 17:04:15 -0400
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On Wednesday 07 September 2005 08:45, RC Macaulay wrote:
> BlankA few years back A flood caught Houston sleeping. Flood water entered
> the basements of major building and hospitals. These facilities all had
> standby diesel powered electric generators located in the basement adjacent
> to the incoming underground electric power service and switchgear.
> Supposedly, thereafter, every city and hospital was notified  of the
> potential risk of locating standby power supplies below grade level where
> flood waters can disable generators and swithgear. Storm doors and larger
> sump pumps were later added after the recovery.
>
> Only a small segment of New Orleans should ever be rebuilt. There is no way
> to provide protection for future flooding unless the city is rebuilt upon
> the mother of all gambling casino barges... hmmm !
>
> Richard

Richard,
  Oh yes it can be rebuilt!  I say this as a native of Sacramento, California.  
For those of we Vortexians that are from the Golden State, we know that
the great valley, the San Joaquin Valley, is about sea level near the 
Carquinez Strait, and used to flood every year with the snow run-off from the
Sierra Nevada Mountains.  This has been largley controlled by the California
Water Project, a collection of dams, power stations, artificial lakes and 
enhanced natural ones such as Lake Almanor, the most beautiful lake in
the United States.  
   Now down to Sacramento.  This city is on a vast area known geographically 
as a 'prairie', meaning a kind in intermittant swamp.  It is a prairie because 
of the above reason.  Sacramento was built by folks that did not know this
fact very well, but they DID know what happened when the rivers flooded.
The Sacramento River and the American River merge in Sacramento on their
way to the Pacific.  After Sacramento, the water rides on down through small
towns surrounded by levees, like 'Ryde', 'Arcata', etc.  What the old city 
fathers did was after one of Sacramentos floods, they took stock and raised
the level of the city by 13 feet!  That's right, they took gold mine tailings, 
fill, any soil and rock they could get and raised the whole city.  Some 
buildings were lifted;  others not.  Whenever a contract is let for 
construction downtown now and the project proceeds, it is dependable that old 
buildings will be found, foundations, walls, and even empty rooms that for 
some reason have not caved in have been found as much as thirty feet below
present street level...some wanted to fill in some more...and did.  The point 
is, new Orleans can be filled in as well. Those areas of the city that are 
sinking can be filled in more to compensate.  Realize that old Sacramento
was a bit smaller than modern New Orleans, but this can, I repeat CAN, be 
done.

Standing Bear, BSCE
much old and substandard construction will have to be leveled to the ground
to make way for this.  The end product will be a healthier and safer city.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep 18 13:54:37 2005
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Subject: Re: Fresnel Dream
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Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

>Michael Foster wrote:

>>Conversely, imagine this cheap stuff stapled to a cheap
>>wooden or maybe tubular plastic frame. You blast it with
>>a heat gun or perhaps even hold it over an open fire
>>and the film shrinks tight as a drum, giving you a flat
>>lens probably more rigid than if you sandwiched it between
>>thicker materials. Cheap, cheap, cheap. Did I mention cheap?

> Ok, but doesn't stretching it play havoc with the focal point?

Again, you ask exactly the right question. Tentered polyester
films owe their amazing optical clarity to having been stretched
greatly in both directions.  They call this biaxial orientation.
You can heat the stuff up and it shrinks very uniformly, unless
you really go to extremes with a very hot spot.

And now it's going to sound like I'm making this up as I go
along. Although this was done for entirely different reasons,
the fresnel films I make are particularly well adapted to this
sort of heat shrink application; because even though the 
substrate is thermoplastic polyester, the actual tiny conical
facets of the fresnel lens are of a highly heat resistance
thermoset (doesn't melt) polymer.  This prevents any local
heat distortion of the fresnel structure itself.

To answer your question more succinctly, if you attach the 
film to the frame in such manner as not to require too much
shrinkage and you are reasonably careful in applying the heat,
there should be no significant effect on the focal point. In
fact, you don't really need to shrink the film at all for
optical reasons, I was thinking more of tensile strengthening
of the frame.

M.



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Harry Veeder wrote:

> Could you use your fresnel lens to get
> more electricity per unit area on a
> photovoltaic cell? The objective of 
> the lens would be to concentrate the
> light rather than focus the light.

In this case, focus and concentrate mean
the same thing. There are photovoltaics
made to operate at higher concentrations,
but these can only work in the 40x range.
What I have in mind gives you about 10,000x.

M.




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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep 18 14:14:35 2005
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From: "Jones Beene" <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
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A company called  ENTECH
http://www.entechsolar.com/
(go to the "technology section to see a module cross section)

seems to be producing solar-electric products that use the Fresnel 
lens as a concentrator. One product already installed is a 
25-kilowatt "SolarRows," (single axis tilt) .... also a 
stand-alone power unit on two axes, producing 1kw at peak output.

http://www.mdatechnology.net/techsearch.asp?articleid=226 

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From: Standing Bear <rockcast earthlink.net>
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Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Snide comments about hurricane Katrina
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On Wednesday 07 September 2005 23:06, RC Macaulay wrote:
> BlankJohn Coviello wrote..
>
> >Our preparedness and response was utterly inept.
> >No reason to snipe about who's to blame at this point, we need to focus on
> >ensuring nothing like this ever happens again.
>
> John,
>
>  Anuone ever try to do business in the state of Louisana ?
>
> Richard

Our performance in Louisiana as a disaster response was not inept.  It was
purposefull.  We sacrificed on orders from high places people of color and 
people of economic disadvantage.  We pointed guns in the faces of the poor 
while the rich were boarding transport  in plain sight of and within easy 
walking or wading distance of those poor.  At the Morial Convention Center 
where so many died, and maggot ridden corpses rotted in plain view of FEMA 
officials that purposely ignored them, a bus convoy rolled up to luxury 
hotels less than a block away to take away the rich guests that had never 
missed a meal or a dark room thanks to emergency generators and caches of 
food and fuel that were and continue to be openly kept and openly denied the
poor in their faces and in the face of a national emergency.
    Just in case any of those poor would have had the guts to ask, like 
Charles Dicken's 'Oliver Twist', for a simple ride to safety, there were 
troops with machine guns all pointed in the direction of those poor.  I am 
sure that those troops had orders to shoot to kill them if they attempted.  
This pattern was repeated over an over.  It was only when Mr. Brown of FEMA 
was cornered on national television in a scene that he obviousely never 
dreamed of happening to him;  and when this Mr. Brown was forced to look
at, to 'officially look at'  --there is a difference as here there is NO 
plausible deniability-- the poor, the black, the creole, and the 
dead.......was any action ever taken.   Shortly after this troops started to 
arrive in large numbers.  Their first mission, however was to not to feed
people,  but to point guns at them  (taking control of the situation and 
validating an administratively sanctioned assessment of wild looting when
it was for food that the people looted).  The next mission was to eliminate 
the press from the area.  This failed when CNN sued and was granted an 
injunction enjoining the government from preventing access to the area
to the press.  The third mission was 'damage control'.  I mean 'political
damage to Republican and moneyed interests.  This generated the visits by 
seniour administration officials to the area for photo opportunities and 
public relations propaganda.  This did not really succeed, as the public 
is smarter than the republicans think.  They know who the republicans left
for dead.  With reporters on the ground in the area, it will become a 
politically dangerous tactic to let the dead rot to unidentifiability, then 
claim that 'it would be better to bury them in a common grave as their 
presence is now (suddenly) a health hazard.  Common graves are where guilty 
governments and crooked civilians bury their secrets so they can lie and 
deny.  The biggest lie will be a 'low body count'.  That will 'lessen 
political damage' and serve those who would blame the victims.  The people of 
New Orleans elected Democratic governance.  The State of Louisiana did the 
same.  Notice the difference in how quick aid came to Mississippi?  
Mississippi is republican!
    What I have mentioned is not made up.  It came to me freely over the news
media that was there for all to see and be appalled.  Those republicans who 
say:  "O do not play the blame game!"  are merely latter day Nazi war 
criminals who spouted a similar mantra when they were tried at Nuremburg:   
"We were just following orders.....!?".
  WE WILL REMEMBER NEXT NOVEMBER, IN 2006 AND 2008 WHAT YOU
WEALTHY AND YOU REPUBLICANS DID IN NEW ORLEANS IN 2005!
  We will be reminded every time we fill our gas tanks.  The nations poor will 
remember when they can't fill their propane and furnace oil tanks this winter
and watch their pipes freeze and thier elderly loved ones die in their 
presence.
   What are the first words of the 'Marseillaise'?

Le Papillon

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From: "RC Macaulay" <walhalla cvtv.net>
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Subject: Re: Way-OT: Mo' de king's English
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Jed,
I asked a question "why" as an entree to granting you the last word. I did 
not use the word  " black" to be clever, but for a reason. The proper 
descriptive term is negroid, not "black". The word black is not descriptive 
of  a race just as African is not descriptive of a race. You are mixing race 
with culture. Some Pacific islanders may be of the negroid race , yet have a 
totally distinct culture from an African nation.  Latin America has a large 
negroid population yet they have a Hispanic culture and language

In the USA it is common to categorize various cultures using " slang " words 
such as " redneck", etc. Some slang words are extremely offensive and 
politically incorrect when uttered by someone from another race, yet, within 
their racial culture, the term is in common used ,even in their music.

As for education, it has now been 40 years and counting since the great 
social experiment began. You were in favor of the experiment while I was 
not. Without getting into a litany of claims of the good the experiment has 
produced for a few fortunates, it is  only necessary to recognize its utter 
failure.

The one's that promoted the experiment cried    '' we must do something, 
even if it's wrong". The public school system is become a shambles 
regardless of how much money is " thrown" at it.

The proper attitude and thinking of government should have been  " lets do 
it, lets do it right , we have had 200 years to get it right, we have the 
brains, the money and the desire". Lets don't do it wrong just for the sake 
of "doing something"

You heap me into the "angry mob group". I prefer to be classified as the 
parent of 4 children that came home from grade school  in the late 60' and 
70's describing " how things were going at school" .We could have placed 
them in private schools at that time but we wanted them to experience the 
reality of what happens when cultures clash at  a base level of society.

Richard



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jed Rothwell" <jedrothwell mindspring.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 17, 2005 9:31 PM
Subject: Re: Way-OT: Mo' de king's English


> RC Macaulay wrote:
>
> "Jed..
> I didn't use the word black.. you did."
>
> Oh how clever of you. You talked about "school integration in the 1960s" 
> but you did not mean black kids. You meant Martians. Martians "will drag 
> you down to their level."
>
> Let me remind you, and the readers here, what happened in 1962, and what 
> this is all about. I was just a kid but I lived through it, my friends 
> here in Atlanta lived through it, and we shall not forget. I mentioned the 
> class valedictorian in my daughter's class. My daughter is no academic 
> slouch. She graduated with honors from Cornell, but this kid ran rings 
> around her, and so did many of the other black kids. Now what would have 
> happened to that child if he had tried to go to our Atlanta neighborhood 
> school in 1962? The law would have prevented him. He would have been 
> forced to attend segregated schools, some of which were only open a 
> half-day, because there was not enough room in the building for all the 
> children. All of them were funded at a fraction of the level of the white 
> schools. If his parents had defied the law, and tried to register him 
> here, mobs of angry of people would have come out, and they would have 
> tried to beat him to death.
>
> And who were these angry mobs? They were people like RC Macaulay, who 
> vowed they would not be "dragged down" by integration. "Segregation now, 
> and forever." No black kid from Atlanta, no matter how brilliant, would 
> have made it to Harvard back then.  He probably would not have made it to 
> college. Now we send thousands to the best schools in the country.
>
> That's what we are talking about. I am not exaggerating one tiny bit. You 
> can read the history of the Atlanta schools anytime you like. We talk 
> about injustice as it were in the distant past, or as if it was some 
> abstract quality, that affected everyone on average perhaps, but only a 
> little. "After all, how inconvenient was it to use a separate water 
> fountain?" as one white woman put it not long ago. As if water fountains 
> were the only issue. What these laws and customs did was to ruin the lives 
> of millions of people right here in Atlanta. They cut off the creativity 
> and potential of these people, depriving society of their contributions. 
> Thousands and thousands of potential valedictorian chess champions and 
> Nobel laureates ended up digging ditches all their lives. Many of them are 
> still doing it -- still middle aged, their lives still blighted.
>
> This was a monsterous injustice, and it was all the fault of people like 
> you who opposed integration, and who oppose it still. And you have the 
> gall to blame the victims!
>
> - Jed
>
>
>
> 


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From: "RC Macaulay" <walhalla cvtv.net>
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Subject: Re: New Orleans; the aftermath
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Blank
 Only a small segment of New Orleans should ever be rebuilt. There is no =
way
> to provide protection for future flooding unless the city is rebuilt =
upon
> the mother of all gambling casino barges... hmmm !
>
> Richard


Standing Bear wrote..
Richard,
  Oh yes it can be rebuilt!=20

Why would anyone be dumb enough to rebuild a city below sealevel once =
its been destroyed ?  If you want it , you build it and you pay for it =
with your money,not mine.

Consider the amount of the increase in insurance rates alone coming as a =
result of poor decisions made years ago. When is enough insanity , =
enough?

Richard

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<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<P>&nbsp;Only a small segment of New Orleans should ever be rebuilt. =
There is no=20
way<BR>&gt; to provide protection for future flooding unless the city is =
rebuilt=20
upon<BR>&gt; the mother of all gambling casino barges... hmmm =
!<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;=20
Richard<BR></P>
<P>Standing Bear wrote..<BR>Richard,<BR>&nbsp; Oh yes it can be=20
rebuilt!&nbsp;</P>
<P>Why would anyone be dumb enough to rebuild a city below sealevel once =
its=20
been destroyed ?&nbsp; If you want it , you build it and you pay for it =
with=20
your money,not mine.</P>
<P>Consider the amount of the increase in insurance rates alone coming =
as a=20
result of poor decisions made years ago. When is enough insanity , =
enough?</P>
<P>Richard</P></BODY></HTML>

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Subject: Re: Fresnel Dream Part II
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Hi Michael,

Does ( or can ) the manufacturing method of 65 inch wide Fresnel sheeting 
focus a trough line? This would allow a pipe to be placed at the focal 
point. Could a pipe would get hot enough to run liquid salt ? - most 
probably not - but I'm sure there are other ideas out there for working 
fluids..

How hot that pipe would get I guess would depend on the absorption 
characteristics of the pipe metal, insulation, the width of the Fresnel, 
latitude, etc

I sense your hesitancy to promote your own product but I believe that the 
potential importance of a product such as this requires that in this 
instance that
those rules be temporarily suspended or bent, and my sense is that most here 
would concur with that assessment..

Please send additional information about your Fresnel material. Product 
name, company name, technical descriptions, and quantities vs pricing etc 
for those who are interested in exploring further the potentials..  Thank 
you.

Colin
- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michael Foster" <michael.foster excite.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2005 11:03 PM
Subject: Fresnel Dream Part II


>
> I failed to make a number of points in my fresnel lens post.
> It was Strother Martin syndrome, "What we have heah is a
> failyah to commun'cate."
>
> I really must emphasize again how much cheaper my
> fresnel stuff is, less than a dollar per square meter.  The
> thickness, weight and tensile strength combine with the low
> cost to reduce the cost of all the other components of a
> solar concentrator.  I have made this material on a substrate
> as thin as 10 microns.  The simple pyramidal framework made
> possible by the properties of the thin high tensile strength
> fresnel film can be assembled out of common materials by
> almost anyone.  It could be made of bamboo if necessary.
> The whole thing, whatever size, could even be disassembled
> and portable.
>
> Another advantage I didn't point out is that the whole
> concentrator structure is so light-weight that it could pivot
> around a rigidly ground mounted engine or other heat driven
> device.  Thus, the engine does not have to be designed to be
> suspended in the air and connected to the ground through
> various clumsy tubes or wires.
>
> Also, my desciption of assembling four quarter fresnels is not
> the only way it could be done.  This was just for the convenience
> of using identical sections.  For example, three different sections
> could assembled into a nine part lens.  So really, this gadget
> can be scaled up to almost any size.
>
> Transparency of the material covers almost the entire solar
> spectrum except the short uv.  The main obstacle to the
> efficiency of the concentrator isn't the transparency of the
> plastic, but the natural tendency of fresnel lenses to scatter
> light at the edges and corners of the facets.  But let me say
> again, that I measured directly about 80% of the total sunlight
> from the fresnel surface delivered to the focus.
>
> Although it is actually much easier for me to make the linear
> fresnels for the trough type solar concentrators, I just kind of
> like the idea of all that energy on a little spot, lotsa delta-T in
> there.  Didn't Mr. Carnot teach us lesson about that?
>
> Having said all this, I must add that I'm my own worst skeptic
> on whether any of this will be put to any practical advantage.
> It would require the participation of a large corporation or a
> government agency.  Simple, inexpensive, easily executed
> things are anathema to large corps. or governments, whose
> behavior is almost identical.
>
> I am ready to provide millions of these fresnels whenever
> someone is actually willing to buy them.
>
> M.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
> The most personalized portal on the Web!
>
>
> 

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Colin Quinney wrote:

> Does ( or can ) the manufacturing method of 65 inch wide Fresnel sheeting
> focus a trough line? This would allow a pipe to be placed at the focal
> point. Could a pipe would get hot enough to run liquid salt ? - most
> probably not - but I'm sure there are other ideas out there for working
> fluids..

The type of linear fresnel for focusing a trough line would be the easiest
for my machinery to manufacture, by far.  3M manufactures such film 
already, but last time I checked it was about 100 times as expensive as
mine would be.  Their material is acrylic and has very little tensile strength.
This, I presume, is why their film is designed to be bent into a cylinder
shape to provide it with some structural integrity.  And BTW, Jones, that
appears to be what is being used at that Entech outfit, unless I looked at
the wrong picture.

> How hot that pipe would get I guess would depend on the absorption
> characteristics of the pipe metal, insulation, the width of the Fresnel,
> latitude, etc

Well yes, but picture this.  Similar to my other sectional scheme, I could
run a 65 inch wide half cylinder fresnel and the two strips of this could
be attached at the edge to form a 130 inch (3.3 meter) wide strip. Now
surely you could do some really hot work with that.

> I sense your hesitancy to promote your own product but I believe that the
> potential importance of a product such as this requires that in this
> instance that
> those rules be temporarily suspended or bent, and my sense is that most here
> would concur with that assessment..

Aye, there's the rub.  I am not sure, but it's a reasonable guess that my
company is already the largest producer in the world of fresnel lenses
in terms of square footage per year.  But at the moment, all of this is 
arrays of relatively small metallized negative lenses for decorative purposes.
The people on this list may concur with your assessment, but out there in
the world of real business, it's quite another story.

And here's the other rub.  The diamond machined original molds for this
stuff are expensive as holy hell.  The one I used for that Guinness World
Records cover was only about 4 inches (100mm) in diameter and cost 
me $7,000.  I'm almost afraid to ask what the really big ones cost.

I can, however, do an experimental cheap-out.  I am able to use the
plastic fresnels already out there in the market place as originals.  For
example, all those large screen rear-projection TVs have a fresnel as
part of the screen.  In other words, they're as big as the screen.  I can
buy one of these for a few hundred dollars.  In a couple of months, I am
going to do an experimental run of these, just to prove it can be done.  I
can't do this on a commercial basis, as there might be intellectual property
issues associated with doing it.  I would eventually have to buy one of
those diamond machined copper originals.

> Please send additional information about your Fresnel material. Product
> name, company name, technical descriptions, and quantities vs pricing etc
> for those who are interested in exploring further the potentials.. Thank
> you.

Thanks for your interest.  Will send off-list.

M.


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North Korea Pledges to Give Up Nuclear Weapons Program

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/19/international/asia/19nkorea-brief.html


S


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Subject: Fresnel Guy vs Cold Fusion
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One of my all-time favorite coolest inventions is a reflective
fresnel solar concentrator invented by a guy named Richard
Steenblik.  He's a Georgia Tech grad, Jed.  This amazingly
clever device works like this:  You cut a piece of flexible
metallized plastic into a spiral and lay it down on a rigid support.
You then attach the inside corner of the outside arm of the 
spiral in such a manner as to allow it to tilt freely.  You twist
the center of the spiral and then attach it to the support.  This
automatically forms a parabolic (I think) reflective fresnel.

This is about the damned cleverest thing I ever heard of.  If
my description is inadequate, and it probably is, you can look
up the patent at USPTO under fresnel and Steenblik. This was
also described in the Amateur Scientist column of Scientific
American. It's on the CD-ROM.

This was going to be yet another solution to third world energy
problems.  But like so many other such devices, such as the
wind-up radio, the crickets are still chirping. 

Another thing he invented that you're more likely to have seen,
is Chroma-Depth 3D glasses. More incredible cleverness.
You look through them and images become 3D according to
their color.  In other words, red things look closer and blue
things look farther away.  This is another fresnel device.  The
glasses are made of very fine fresnel prisms that amount to
a transmission blazed diffraction grating.  The net result is
a great deal of chromatic dispersion without a lot of image
displacement.  This produces excellent 3D images.  There's
a web site somewhere selling this stuff.

Ah, but Steenblik is not guy who would be greatly admired by
Vorts.  One of his claims to fame is that he "debunked" cold
fusion for the Smithsonian.  Nobody's perfect, I guess.

Say, Jed, is he on that Georgia Tech committee you were
talking about?

M.



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Jones Beene wrote:

> Wesley,
>
> Given that liquid air can be produced safely in a vehicle owner's 
> garage, and given that liquid air, due to the efficiency of heat pumps 
> (COP =4) costs no more to produce that highly compressed air - maybe 
> less, and is safer for vehicle occupants in the event of an accident, 
> uses a lighter tank, has higher energy density, and so on.... why is 
> an "air car" (i.e. highly compressed air as opposed to liquid air) 
> preferable?
>
> Obviously this is playing 'devil's advocate' - but can you counter 
> these arguments in favor of liquid air ?
>
> Jones
>
This car has both a compressor on board and can refill from a high 
pressure air bowsers that needs no petrol station. A public car park or 
roadside rest area with power can refill it.  With fusion the power 
plant runs on one tank and recharges the others while its idling or 
coasting and then under load draws on all the tanks to use the cold 
fusion heat at 100% efficiency.
At these pressures there is little difference between compressed air and 
liquid air but the legal difference is huge. Storing and handling of 
liquid air is highly regulated in some places. If you stay below the 
thresh hold you scare fewer people. The tanks can't explode if that's 
your worry. Liquid air could explode like rocket fuel if it came into 
contact with petrol in a two car collision. Cryogenic liquids can give 
you a freeze burn over a large area. Compressed air would burn a small 
area and push you clear of the air leak. With the tanks placed below the 
passenger compartment it would be unlikely to breach the floor panels. 
If there's enough force in the crash to rip the tanks loose and mix them 
up with you; you would be dead anyway.
All round it's a good design.

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Steven Krivit wrote:

> Jed,
>
> Check out PopSci Oct 2005, page 40.
>
> "tissue engineers serve up a lab-bred meat as an alternative to cattle 
> farming"
>
> Perhaps they read your book?
>
>
> s
>
Biopsy bacon and rack of clone.  It will do wonders for Mars colonists.  
I believe one of the pioneers of tissue cultures 20 odd years ago was 
growing lamb in his lab for the evening meal. Its not such a new 
technology. A commitee told him to stop taste testing the stuff. The 
guys in Popsci will probably have solved the cost problem. Up till now 
its been like eating solid gold stakes.

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RC Macaulay wrote:

>  
>
>  Only a small segment of New Orleans should ever be rebuilt. There is 
> no way
> > to provide protection for future flooding unless the city is rebuilt 
> upon
> > the mother of all gambling casino barges... hmmm !
> >
> > Richard
>
> Standing Bear wrote..
> Richard,
>   Oh yes it can be rebuilt! 
>
> Why would anyone be dumb enough to rebuild a city below sealevel once 
> its been destroyed ?  If you want it , you build it and you pay for it 
> with your money,not mine.
>
> Consider the amount of the increase in insurance rates alone coming as 
> a result of poor decisions made years ago. When is enough insanity , 
> enough?
>
> Richard
>
The land values in the area are not zero. We can rebuild three to six 
story buildings with interlinked floors above the third floor and the 
ground floor being car parking squash courts, indoor soccer, basket 
ball, dance halls. Covered drying areas for clothing also works. Fewer 
buildings, more parkland and build up so the first floor with anyone 
living on it will be above sea level plus 4 meters. The power, data, 
water, sewers etc can be rebuilt so they are flood proof or above the 
sea level. It can be done but it probably wont be done.

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> very cold
>air is drawn down from the troposphere quick freezing much
>of the Northern Hemisphere (a plausible explanation for
>finding frozen mammoths with slightly digested vegetation
>in their stomachs).
>  
>
Actually there is good evidence that the mammoths and other fauna found 
with them were killed during the Ice Age thaw. As the Ice melted it 
released several cubic miles of dust, ground up mountain. This blew 
east, mixed in some places with snow and buried the mammoths and other 
animals faster than they could escape. It also buried whole Asian 
villages: huntergatherers on the upper Chang Jiang (Yangize) and  Huang 
He (Yellow river). The animals were not flash frozen there are signs of 
decay and scavenging but not much. It probably took a few days for the 
mix of dust, snow to freeze and cement into a muddy tomb but with oxygen 
excluded there was little decay. It takes several days for plants in an 
elephants stomach to digest. That the plants were actually well 
preserved, pickled, is an indication of high acid and low oxygen not 
flash freezing. Like a cold bog.

>Maybe we need to burn as much fossil fuel as possible to
>try to get past the coming freeze.
>
>Or we could stop using fossil fuels and hope for the best.
>We could go to a methanol economy, making the methanol
>from wood chips produced by stump cutting rapidly
>growing poplars on tree farms.  We could use our existing
>infrastructure -- tanks, pipelinces, "gas" stations, with
>minor modifications to our engines.  We would thus stop
>sending billions to people who want to kill us and enslave
>our women.  Also, tree farming would provide many jobs.
>
>Dusting vast stretches of the oceans with iron to increase
>CO2 consumption may be a good idea.  The increasing
>Himalayan rock face would remove existing CO2 as carbonates
>in the runoff to be fixed by shell fish.  This may not
>work if a deviation amplifying methane release is already
>under way.
>  
>
I've studied biofuels. Growing such large new forests would require 
giving millions of hectares of our best agricultural land back to 
forestry. If climate change produced harsh frosts or big snow drifts 
then we will loose the seedlings. An if global warming and cold dry 
arctic winds combine it may actually dry out both old growth and new 
forests turning both into short grass prairie.
Cold Fusion is our only hope.

>Jack Smith
>
>
>  
>

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What George Wiseman says:

http://www.eagle-research.com/browngas/whatisbg/whatis.html

I Quote:

" The current theory of Brown's Gas states that Brown's Gas is a mixture of di-atomic and mon-atomic hydrogen and oxygen. Brown's Gas, Book One explains it in detail, but here is a peek. "
 
The simplest way to make Brown's Gas is to use an electrolyzer, which uses electricity to split water into its elements of hydrogen and oxygen. At the instant that the water splits, the hydrogen and oxygen are in their mon-atomic state, this is H for hydrogen and O for oxygen. 
Normal electrolyzers encourage the hydrogen and oxygen to drop to their di-atomic state. Di-atomic means the hydrogen formed H2 and the oxygen formed O2. The di-atomic state is a lower energy state, the energy difference shows up as heat in the electrolyzer. This energy is now unavailable to the flame. 
 
WHAT IF a significant number of these H and O atoms did not reform into di-atomic molecules? We start by adding 442.4 Kcal per mole to split water using electrolysis. This is an endothermic (energy absorbing) action. But if we have no, or little, 're-bonding' into di-atomic molecules, then our electrolyzer wouldn't heat up, because there would be no exothermic reaction that would cause excess heat, beyond the agitation of the fluid by the bubbles. This 'lack of heat' in the electrolyzer is what I noted in my experiments that actually produced Brown's Gas. "

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
And what I wrote:

 With 2.5 volts   0.4 amperes equal 1.0 watt = 1.0 joule/second (2.5e18 electrons/second ) flowing through the cell 2.5e18 > Hydrogen atoms are liberated at the cathode and 
1.25e18 Oxygen atoms are liberated at the cathode. 

When two Hydrogen atoms combine to form H2,  4.53 eV per bond (7.242e-19 joule)is liberated, 

and when two Oxygen atoms combine to form O2, 5.17 eV per bond (8.272e-19 joule) 

is liberated. H2 + 0.5 O2 ----> H2O + Energy  =  452,200 joule/mole (18 grams).

But, 2.5e18/2  x 7.242e-19 x sec =  1.0 joule = 1.0  watt for the H-H recombination, 

plus 2.5e18/4 x 8.272e-19 x sec =  0.517 joule  = 0.517 watt for 

the O-O recombination resulting in 1.517 watts of "Free energy"  

even before the H2 + 0.5 O2 ----> H2O recombination:(3.32e-5 grams O2  + 4.15e-6 grams H2  = 

3.735e-5 grams H2O x 25,122  joule/gram = watt-sec = 0.9383 joules released.  

Net "Intrinsic OU " = ~ 1.517  joules

What I propose:

A porus  tube filled with electrolyte surrounded at each end with a screen mesh 
anode and cathode enclosed in an evacuated (or noble gas filled) chamber.

Ion membranes??

Warmest Regards?     :-)

Frederick
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8
Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

<HTML style="FONT-SIZE: x-small; FONT-FAMILY: MS Sans Serif"><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=windows-1251">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV>What George Wiseman says:</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://www.eagle-research.com/browngas/whatisbg/whatis.html">http://www.eagle-research.com/browngas/whatisbg/whatis.html</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>I Quote:</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>" The current theory of Brown's Gas states that Brown's Gas is a mixture of di-atomic and mon-atomic hydrogen and oxygen. Brown's Gas, Book One explains it in detail, but here is a peek. "
<DD><FONT face=Times size=-1></FONT> </DD></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Times size=-1>The </FONT><FONT face=Times color=#6633ff size=-1>simplest way to make Brown's Gas is to</FONT><FONT face=Times size=-1> use an electrolyzer, which uses electricity to split water into its elements of hydrogen and oxygen. At the instant that the water splits, the hydrogen and oxygen are in their mon-atomic state, this is H for hydrogen and O for oxygen.</FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DT><FONT face=Times size=-1>Normal electrolyzers encourage the hydrogen and oxygen to drop to their di-atomic state. </FONT><FONT face=Times color=#6633ff size=-1>Di-atomic means</FONT><FONT face=Times size=-1> the hydrogen formed H2 and the oxygen formed O2. The di-atomic state is a lower energy state, the energy difference shows up as heat in the electrolyzer. This energy is now unavailable to the flame.</FONT> 
<DD><FONT face=Times size=-1></FONT> 
<DT><FONT face=Times size=-1>WHAT IF a significant number of these H and O atoms did not reform into di-atomic molecules? We start by adding 442.4 Kcal per mole to split water using electrolysis. This is an endothermic (energy absorbing) action. But if we have no, or little, 're-bonding' into di-atomic molecules, then our electrolyzer wouldn't heat up, because there would be no exothermic reaction that would cause excess heat, beyond the agitation of the fluid by the bubbles. This 'lack of heat' in the electrolyzer is what I noted in my experiments that actually produced Brown's Gas.</FONT> "</DT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::</DIV>
<DIV>And what I wrote:</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>&nbsp;With 2.5 volts   0.4 amperes equal 1.0 watt = 1.0 joule/second (2.5e18 electrons/second ) flowing through the cell 2.5e18 &gt; Hydrogen atoms are liberated at the cathode and </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>1.25e18 Oxygen atoms are liberated at the cathode. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>When two Hydrogen atoms combine to form H2,&nbsp;&nbsp;4.53 eV per bond (7.242e-19 joule)is liberated, </FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>and when two Oxygen atoms combine to form O2, 5.17 eV per bond (8.272e-19 joule) </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>is liberated. H2 + 0.5 O2 ----&gt; H2O + Energy&nbsp; =&nbsp; 452,200 joule/mole (18 grams).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>But, 2.5e18/2&nbsp;&nbsp;x 7.242e-19 x sec =&nbsp;&nbsp;1.0 joule =&nbsp;1.0&nbsp; </FONT><FONT size=2>watt for the H-H recombination, </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>plus 2.5e18/4 x 8.272e-19 x sec =&nbsp;&nbsp;0.517 joule&nbsp; = 0.517 watt for </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>the </FONT><FONT size=2>O-O recombination </FONT><FONT size=2>resulting in&nbsp;1.517 watts of "Free energy"&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>even before the H2 + 0.5 O2 ----&gt; </FONT><FONT size=2>H2O recombination:(3.32e-5 grams O2&nbsp; + 4.15e-6 grams H2 &nbsp;= </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>3.735e-5 grams H2O x 25,122&nbsp; </FONT><FONT size=2>joule/gram = watt-sec = 0.9383 joules released.&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Net "Intrinsic OU " = ~ 1.517&nbsp; joules</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>What I propose:</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>A&nbsp;porus&nbsp;&nbsp;tube filled with electrolyte surrounded at each end with a screen mesh </DIV>
<DIV>anode and cathode enclosed in an evacuated (or noble gas filled) chamber.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Ion membranes??</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Warmest Regards?&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; :-)</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Frederick</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<P></P></BODY></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 19 01:31:19 2005
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Subject: Re: A philisophical thought.
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>
>
>>>From: Harry Veeder   
>>>
>>
>>
>>>The philosophy underpinning free energy research does not 
>>>subscribe to the principle that it is possible to get
>>>something FROM nothing. It subscribes to the principle
>>>that it is possible and SOMETIMES preferable to get
>>>something BY DOING nothing.
>>>

According to physicists like Puthoff, the ZPE exists and contains 
sufficient energy to account for matter, ergo lots and lots of energy.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 19 01:31:36 2005
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From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: RE: CF Is the mechanism really Nuclear?
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Ed  Storms posted:

>Obviously, a mechanism exists that is not part of normal experience.
>That is why the effect is so hard to produce and requires a novel
>environment.  People need to change their expectations and explore novel
>processes that only occur in a crystalline structure.

and R O Cornwall replied;

it might be possible for them to scatter preferentially with D ions 
in the lattice
rather than Pd or e-.
The starting spark for the reaction would be pure random chance to then
initiate a kind of chain reaction.

If you could initiate a chain reaction we wouldn't be arguing about 
whether or not the phenomena was happening or not. I could go to 
Walmart and purchase a C F heater for my house.

then Jed Rothwell posted;

Fortunately, that is exactly what we have for cold fusion. It is 
based on 18th and 19th-century calorimetry, which is one of the most 
fundamental and unquestionably reliable techniques known to science.

I saved this thread because I wanted to make the point about the 
metals which are found in the electrodes following the reactions, 
hetrometals. Since the electrodes are 5 9's grade metal, these 
hetrometals shouldn't have been there before.  If you do an isotopic 
analysis of these hetrometals, there are exotic isotopes, the 2%ers 
which occur in higher than normal. IMHO, this is proof of the nuclear 
nature of the phenomena.

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Subject: Re: Way-OT: Mo' de king's English
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Jones (?) posted;

>>
>>Another case in point (the point being the humorous irrationality 
>>of life): it was nearly ten years ago now that the Oakland School 
>>Board ruled unanimously to teach Ebonics (which some argue is a 
>>dialect of English spoken by some African-Americans) in school as a 
>>second language, then backed off.  My neighbor at the time in 
>>Berkeley was a 25 year old recent Cal grad, liberal Jewish 
>>(actually a "Ju-Bu" formerly Jewish turned Buddhist

You're right, teaching any children in eubonics is tantamount to 
child abuse. The black American Academic  Robert Sowell was 
interviewed by Dennis Prager. He makes the case that the Puritan 
Englishmen, from northern England, who settled America spoke a 
English differently than did did their southern brothers, Hence the 
different accents. Sowell contents that the northerners spoke English 
correctly.

As Dennis says, teaching anyone Eubonics is an idea that is so stupid 
that you need at least a graduate degree in order to believe it.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 19 01:31:49 2005
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Jed Rothwell posted;

>  The problem is, by the time the debate is fully settled it may be too late

>  to do stave off a catastrophe. We must act on the basis of incomplete and
>  unsure information.

This makes several assumptions: The first one is that human activity 
is causing climate change. I don't believe that this is the case. 
There is an increase in Sun Spot activity, and there is evidence that 
this is caused by large rocks hitting the Sun. This conclusion is 
buttressed by the  evidence that Mars is heating up too. Then there 
are the under sea volcanos. The second assumption is that we can do 
anything about it.

Then Jed posted;

To make up for a 2% decline in solar radiation, you need enough Mylar 
to reflect approximately 2% of the daylight earth's surface area, or 
3.6 million square kilometers. That sounds doable to me.

Only 3.6 million square kilometers! You and that artist, I think his 
name is Cusco, the guy who wraps things in plastic film should get 
together. This gives new meaning to grasping at straws!

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thomas malloy wrote:

> Ed  Storms posted:
>
>> Obviously, a mechanism exists that is not part of normal experience.
>> That is why the effect is so hard to produce and requires a novel
>> environment.  People need to change their expectations and explore novel
>> processes that only occur in a crystalline structure.
>
>
> and R O Cornwall replied;
>
> it might be possible for them to scatter preferentially with D ions in 
> the lattice
> rather than Pd or e-.
> The starting spark for the reaction would be pure random chance to then
> initiate a kind of chain reaction.
>
Read the "students guide to cold fusion" your covering old ground. 
http://www.lenr-canr.org/StudentsGuide.htm

> If you could initiate a chain reaction we wouldn't be arguing about 
> whether or not the phenomena was happening or not. I could go to 
> Walmart and purchase a C F heater for my house.
>
> then Jed Rothwell posted;
>
> Fortunately, that is exactly what we have for cold fusion. It is based 
> on 18th and 19th-century calorimetry, which is one of the most 
> fundamental and unquestionably reliable techniques known to science.
>
> I saved this thread because I wanted to make the point about the 
> metals which are found in the electrodes following the reactions, 
> hetrometals. Since the electrodes are 5 9's grade metal, these 
> hetrometals shouldn't have been there before.  If you do an isotopic 
> analysis of these hetrometals, there are exotic isotopes, the 2%ers 
> which occur in higher than normal. IMHO, this is proof of the nuclear 
> nature of the phenomena.
>

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thomas malloy wrote:

>>
>>
>>>> From: Harry Veeder  
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> The philosophy underpinning free energy research does not subscribe 
>>>> to the principle that it is possible to get
>>>> something FROM nothing. It subscribes to the principle
>>>> that it is possible and SOMETIMES preferable to get
>>>> something BY DOING nothing.
>>>>
>
> According to physicists like Puthoff, the ZPE exists and contains 
> sufficient energy to account for matter, ergo lots and lots of energy.
>
10 to the 93rd power Joules per cubic centimeter. I read somewhere, 
Wheeler I think. More energy than there is in all the mass and photons 
in all of the known universe wrapped up in the volume of a tea cup. Tap 
0.0000000000000000001 % and you fry the planet.

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Figures revised to "square" with George Wiseman's 3.8 x energy input (his figures
are based on 2 H2 + O2 , mine are based on H2 + 0.5 O) .

http://www.eagle-research.com/browngas/whatisbg/whatis2.html

"During a Brown's Gas mon-atomic hydrogen (H) and mon-atomic oxygen (O) flame, we don't have to add any energy because the molecules are already in their simplest and highest energy atomic form. This means that "perfect" Brown's Gas can have 3.8 times the possible 'heat' energy that an "ordinary" H2 and O2 flame has (442.4 Kcal/115.7 Kcal).
Thus we can get 'plasma' type temperatures and effects as we weld, because the potential atomic energy is there, even if it doesn't show up as heat."

I wrote:
 With 2.5 volts   0.4 amperes equal 1.0 watt = 1.0 joule/second (2.5e18 electrons/second ) flowing through the cell 2.5e18 > Hydrogen atoms are liberated at the cathode and 
1.25e18 Oxygen atoms are liberated at the cathode. 

When two Hydrogen atoms combine to form H2,  4.53 eV per bond (7.242e-19 joule)is liberated, 

and when two Oxygen atoms combine to form O2, 5.17 eV per bond (8.272e-19 joule) 

is liberated. H2 + 0.5 O2 ----> H2O + Energy  =  228,619 joule/mole (18 grams).

But, 2.5e18/2  x 7.242e-19 x sec =  1.0 joule = 1.0  watt for the H-H recombination, 

plus 2.5e18/4 x 8.272e-19 x sec =  0.517 joule  = 0.517 watt for 

the O-O recombination resulting in 1.517 watts of "Free energy"  

even before the H2 + 0.5 O2 ----> H2O recombination:(3.32e-5 grams O2  + 4.15e-6 grams H2  = 

3.735e-5 grams H2O x  12,700  joule/gram = watt-sec = 0.474 joules released.  

Net "Intrinsic OU " = ~ 1.517  joules    Total heat output 1.517 + 0.474 = 1.991 Joules
or 4.2 times energy input.
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<HTML style="FONT-SIZE: x-small; FONT-FAMILY: MS Sans Serif"><HEAD>
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<DIV>
<DIV>Figures revised to "square" with George Wiseman's 3.8 x energy input (his figures</DIV>
<DIV>are based on 2 H2 + O2 , mine are based on H2 + 0.5 O) .</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://www.eagle-research.com/browngas/whatisbg/whatis2.html">http://www.eagle-research.com/browngas/whatisbg/whatis2.html</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>"During a Brown's Gas mon-atomic hydrogen (H) and mon-atomic oxygen (O) flame, we don't have to add any energy because the molecules are already in their simplest and highest energy atomic form. This means that "perfect" Brown's Gas can have 3.8 times the possible 'heat' energy that an "ordinary" H2 and O2 flame has (442.4 Kcal/115.7 Kcal).</DIV>
<DIV>Thus we can get 'plasma' type temperatures and effects as we weld, because the potential atomic energy is there, even if it doesn't show up as heat."</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>I wrote:<FONT size=2></DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid">
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>&nbsp;With 2.5 volts   0.4 amperes equal 1.0 watt = 1.0 joule/second (2.5e18 electrons/second ) flowing through the cell 2.5e18 &gt; Hydrogen atoms are liberated at the cathode and </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>1.25e18 Oxygen atoms are liberated at the cathode. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>When two Hydrogen atoms combine to form H2,&nbsp;&nbsp;4.53 eV per bond (7.242e-19 joule)is liberated, </FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>and when two Oxygen atoms combine to form O2, 5.17 eV per bond (8.272e-19 joule) </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>is liberated. H2 + 0.5 O2 ----&gt; H2O + Energy&nbsp; =&nbsp; 228,619 joule/mole (18 grams).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>But, 2.5e18/2&nbsp;&nbsp;x 7.242e-19 x sec =&nbsp;&nbsp;1.0 joule =&nbsp;1.0&nbsp; </FONT><FONT size=2>watt for the H-H recombination, </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>plus 2.5e18/4 x 8.272e-19 x sec =&nbsp;&nbsp;0.517 joule&nbsp; = 0.517 watt for </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>the </FONT><FONT size=2>O-O recombination </FONT><FONT size=2>resulting in&nbsp;1.517 watts of "Free energy"&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>even before the H2 + 0.5 O2 ----&gt; </FONT><FONT size=2>H2O recombination:(3.32e-5 grams O2&nbsp; + 4.15e-6 grams H2 &nbsp;= </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>3.735e-5 grams H2O x&nbsp; 12,700&nbsp; </FONT><FONT size=2>joule/gram = watt-sec = 0.474 joules released.&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Net "Intrinsic OU " = ~ 1.517&nbsp; joules&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Total heat output 1.517 + 0.474 = 1.991 Joules</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>or 4.2 times energy input.</DIV></DIV></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 19 05:05:55 2005
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Subject: Re: New Orleans; the aftermath
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Bruce,
New Orleans IS MARSHLAND !! That means there is no bottom like bedrock etc. 
The land " sinks" which means the more you build ,the deeper it sinks. That 
is the reason the levees collapsed. They settled 4 feet in ten years. In 
itself, thats no big deal ,BUT, not only did they settle UNEVENLY, the pumps 
were located at the base where they could flood.
Combine the worse engineeering with total, absolute public corruption and 
what you have is nawlins

Richard

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Wesley Bruce" <wesleybruce iinet.net.au>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 1:10 AM
Subject: Re: New Orleans; the aftermath


> RC Macaulay wrote:
>
>>
>>  Only a small segment of New Orleans should ever be rebuilt. There is no 
>> way
>> > to provide protection for future flooding unless the city is rebuilt
>> upon
>> > the mother of all gambling casino barges... hmmm !
>> >
>> > Richard
>>
>> Standing Bear wrote..
>> Richard,
>>   Oh yes it can be rebuilt!
>> Why would anyone be dumb enough to rebuild a city below sealevel once its 
>> been destroyed ?  If you want it , you build it and you pay for it with 
>> your money,not mine.
>>
>> Consider the amount of the increase in insurance rates alone coming as a 
>> result of poor decisions made years ago. When is enough insanity , 
>> enough?
>>
>> Richard
>>
> The land values in the area are not zero. We can rebuild three to six 
> story buildings with interlinked floors above the third floor and the 
> ground floor being car parking squash courts, indoor soccer, basket ball, 
> dance halls. Covered drying areas for clothing also works. Fewer 
> buildings, more parkland and build up so the first floor with anyone 
> living on it will be above sea level plus 4 meters. The power, data, 
> water, sewers etc can be rebuilt so they are flood proof or above the sea 
> level. It can be done but it probably wont be done.
>
> 


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 19 06:27:23 2005
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Subject: Re: New Orleans; the aftermath
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And now we have Rita heading for the gulf.  I don't think those hasty levee
repairs can even survive a tropical storm.  They are too low and too soft!

Jeff


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "RC Macaulay" <walhalla cvtv.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 8:04 AM
Subject: Re: New Orleans; the aftermath


> Bruce,
> New Orleans IS MARSHLAND !! That means there is no bottom like bedrock
etc.
> The land " sinks" which means the more you build ,the deeper it sinks.
That
> is the reason the levees collapsed. They settled 4 feet in ten years. In
> itself, thats no big deal ,BUT, not only did they settle UNEVENLY, the
pumps
> were located at the base where they could flood.
> Combine the worse engineeering with total, absolute public corruption and
> what you have is nawlins
>
> Richard
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Wesley Bruce" <wesleybruce iinet.net.au>
> To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 1:10 AM
> Subject: Re: New Orleans; the aftermath
>
>
> > RC Macaulay wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>  Only a small segment of New Orleans should ever be rebuilt. There is
no
> >> way
> >> > to provide protection for future flooding unless the city is rebuilt
> >> upon
> >> > the mother of all gambling casino barges... hmmm !
> >> >
> >> > Richard
> >>
> >> Standing Bear wrote..
> >> Richard,
> >>   Oh yes it can be rebuilt!
> >> Why would anyone be dumb enough to rebuild a city below sealevel once
its
> >> been destroyed ?  If you want it , you build it and you pay for it with
> >> your money,not mine.
> >>
> >> Consider the amount of the increase in insurance rates alone coming as
a
> >> result of poor decisions made years ago. When is enough insanity ,
> >> enough?
> >>
> >> Richard
> >>
> > The land values in the area are not zero. We can rebuild three to six
> > story buildings with interlinked floors above the third floor and the
> > ground floor being car parking squash courts, indoor soccer, basket
ball,
> > dance halls. Covered drying areas for clothing also works. Fewer
> > buildings, more parkland and build up so the first floor with anyone
> > living on it will be above sea level plus 4 meters. The power, data,
> > water, sewers etc can be rebuilt so they are flood proof or above the
sea
> > level. It can be done but it probably wont be done.
> >
> >
>
>
>


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 19 06:57:50 2005
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From: "John Steck" <johnsteck tetrahelix.com>
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Subject: RE: totally OT: a fallen moon
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I've long suspected Mars may only be an orphaned moon from whatever planet
is now represented by the asteroid belt in our solar system.  It's density
and composition point in that direction.  These signs of a violent past may
be scars from the cataclysmic end of it's host.

Or not.  8^)



-----Original Message-----
From: revtec [mailto:revtec PTD.NET] 
Sent: Friday, September 16, 2005 10:24 AM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: totally OT: a fallen moon


Could this be proof that Velikovsky was right after all?  Wouldn't a close
encounter with earth leave the same foot print?  It seems clear that Mars
once had an atmosphere and water.  With Earth being much more massive than
Mars, wouldn't the Earth draw off the atmosphere and perhaps most of the
water during a near miss.  The violent transfer would definitly leave some
kind of track on the Martian surface.  A third Martian moon may also have
been caught up in the process.

Jeff


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "William Beaty" <billb eskimo.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2005 10:43 PM
Subject: totally OT: a fallen moon


>
>
> As a kid in the 1960s I remember staring at the world map in the 
> classroom and *knowing* that the Americas fit with Europe and Africa 
> like a jigsaw puzzle.  In 1965 this was geological heresy, but the 
> grade school kids like me were seeing something real, something that 
> professional geologists denied.
>
> So now I'm looking at the map of Mars over my desk, and I know enough 
> to take my first impressions seriously.  The Valles Marineris
> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valles_Marineris) is too straight.  WAY 
> too straight.  Well, actually it's curved in a sine wave that extends 
> as a discoloration across more than half the planet.  (World maps with 
> sine waves drawn on them are plots of orbiting spacecraft, where the 
> angled circular orbit is "unrolled" to form a wave.)  Also, Valles 
> Marineris is aligned with the Martian equator, so it's also aligned 
> with the plane of the ecliptic where moon orbits lie.  Maybe not a 
> coincidence.  Also, Valles Marineris has many widely separate parallel 
> features which are also perfectly straight.  Also there are all kinds 
> of crater chains
> (http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/moc_atlas/mc18.jpg) parallel to the
> valley all around the same region.
>
> Yet explanations of this valley talk about a cracking crust.  Perhaps. 
> But I don't believe it.  There are linear gouges and broad lines of 
> discoloration WAY downstream of the main valley.  I predict that 
> within a decade or two the expert opinion will shift: Valles Marineris 
> is an astrobleme, it was carved out by a moon that fell from orbit.  
> The Valles region doesn't extend all the way around the planet, so it 
> probably wasn't caused by a planetary ring.  It's composed of several 
> large parallel tracks, so the moon probably exploded and the cloud 
> started expanding before it came down.
>
> Imagine the event!  An entire moon hits the atmosphere and breaks up 
> into two or three huge chunks plus lots of rubble, into a hundred 
> asteroids, which then roll across the land at orbital velocity from 
> horizon to horizon like incandescent bowling balls the size of 
> Manhattan.
>
>
>
> (((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
> William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
> billb at amasci com                         http://amasci.com
> EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair
> Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci
>
>


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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: "vortex-l" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Home Brew Methane Generation
Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 08:11:54 -0500
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An inverted (air purged by pushing the tank down with the drain plug removed) 6 foot diameter poly stock nesting in a 9 foot diameter poly stock tank  filled with water and kitchen garbage makes a do-it -yourself unit that might give you about 60 therms/day of 600 BTU/ft^3 methane, John.   :-)

A plastic film for sealing the gap between the tank perimeters keeps odors in and the flies out.

The gas is piped from the drain port after the tank fills and rises.


http://www.behlencountry.com/asp/catalog.asp?Product=Poly%20Tanks&Family=Water%20Tanks

Styrofoam insulation required of course.

Frederick
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<DIV>An inverted&nbsp;(air purged by pushing the tank down with the drain plug removed) 6 foot diameter poly stock nesting in a 9 foot diameter poly stock tank&nbsp; filled with water and kitchen garbage makes a do-it -yourself unit that might give you about 60 therms/day of 600 BTU/ft^3 methane, John.&nbsp;&nbsp; :-)</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>A plastic film for sealing the gap between the tank perimeters&nbsp;keeps odors in and the flies out.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The gas is piped from the drain port after the tank fills and rises.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://www.behlencountry.com/asp/catalog.asp?Product=Poly%20Tanks&amp;Family=Water%20Tanks">http://www.behlencountry.com/asp/catalog.asp?Product=Poly%20Tanks&amp;Family=Water%20Tanks</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Styrofoam insulation required of course.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Frederick</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 19 07:35:22 2005
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Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 10:34:14 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: man made steak
In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050918114748.02b4ea20 mail.newenergytimes.com
 >
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Steven Krivit wrote:

>Check out PopSci Oct 2005, page 40.
>
>"tissue engineers serve up a lab-bred meat as an alternative to cattle 
>farming"

This is marvelous. It is the world's second most important research, after 
CF. See:

http://www.new-harvest.org/default.php

http://www.new-harvest.org/img/files/Invitro.pdf


>Perhaps they read your book?

They haven't but I invited them too! I also suggested they read Clarke's 
"Food of the Gods." I contributed to their research, which is tax 
deductible, but the way.

- Jed


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From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: RE: Way-OT: Mo' de king's English
Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 15:35:59 +0100
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I have appreciated all your posts on this subject. It's fascinating to see
the extremes of human behaviour.

Jed's post was great (as always on this and other matters) very articulate
and well thought out but I'm not patronising.

R C Macaulay I find you very interesting. You have your views and I can live
with that (apart from the oppression). You have said exactly the same things
that my chemistry teacher and sixth form tutor used to say! He got me at
that age when one is very susceptible to ideas (16-18) and probably set my
view on politics and science. I got in touch with him years later, recently
and told him what I was up to.

He used to despair at my adolescent laziness but straight away played the
race card saying it was "typical, own worst enemy, cunning". This caused
immense damage to a young mind and I should have told my parents more since
it was their money I was burning at that place (I had a bog standard
comprehensive education before hand). Rather than try to understand a young
person he did the old statistical analysis thing which is grouping people by
race, class, religions and so on.

I realise what his problem is and he is hurting. He is of the generation
that saw the British Empire collapse, the relegation of Britain to some
small European power and the shock of all the wogs and fuzzy-wuzzies taking
over them economically and what's more buying British companies, asset
stripping them, sacking the work-force (don't complain about Mercantilism
you chaps invented it), giving the Brits orders and marrying their
daughters.

The general malaise in all 1st World societies, the decay of city centres
and youth delinquency are good examples and was perhaps inevitable - things
need continual re-birth and purification but to his mind it is linked with
this collapse of the BE, left-wing movements, universal suffrage and mass
immigration.

In your view there was a golden age of the Southern States before the Civil
War and then Integration. It can only be due to the same left-wing movements
- in your view!


Now what Jed said is right (well left :) but extreme in places and you are
on the other extreme. Not wishing to start war or wipe each other out, can
reasonable people live together and respect each other's space in the Twenty
First Century with deeply held beliefs? Edmund Storms contribution on
another thread was to look at ways of melding all approaches. We have
noticed that this applies in other walks of life in a micro-setting, like
our profession of science: TB/PS, State/Free enterprise. 

I put it to you R C Macaulay that yes, Blacks have plenty to learn as
regards civil society but that would be to patronise people like Rice,
Powell and other people we see in high office who are not figureheads. It
seems that there is probably not something interminably wicked about blacks
(as you and my old teacher seem to think) - pay testament to Black middle
class (US BMC who on their own would be 16th largest trading nation) but
some very small factor of nature but largely NURTURE.

Unfortunately the left is suffering from a failed dream along the lines of
the road to hell being paved with good intentions. I reckon that any race
that swallowed this philosophy hook line and sinker like my race would have
been doomed to failure. It's a tragedy, who else could we have latched on
to? Initially it was the Republicans and Abe Lincoln but then we shifted
leftward. No, you've only got to look around the world and history and I'm
sure you will find that blacks are not uniquely wicked. You talk about a
church being burnt down, well where I grew up the skinheads did this and
more routinely. Their problem was lack of work from a suddenly shifting
world economy and lack of traditional male unskilled and semi-skilled work.

So I'm not bothered by what you think but I must admit I admire you for
having the balls to speak your mind; we cannot fail to learn something and
adjust once the anger has subsided - much as in science.

To draw to a close, I think old school people are going to have trouble
adjusting to loss of empire and special privileges. Face facts, other
emergent economies will ring circles around you as will their skilled
professionals and women too. The future is probably Mandarin.

I think your comment was of the tough love variety as practiced by my 6th
form tutor. It can work but sometimes but can cause immense damage. The
teacher should be learning too.

Regards to everyone,
Remi.

 

-----Original Message-----
From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On
Behalf Of thomas malloy
Sent: 19 September 2005 09:30
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Way-OT: Mo' de king's English

Jones (?) posted;

>>
>>Another case in point (the point being the humorous irrationality 
>>of life): it was nearly ten years ago now that the Oakland School 
>>Board ruled unanimously to teach Ebonics (which some argue is a 
>>dialect of English spoken by some African-Americans) in school as a 
>>second language, then backed off.  My neighbor at the time in 
>>Berkeley was a 25 year old recent Cal grad, liberal Jewish 
>>(actually a "Ju-Bu" formerly Jewish turned Buddhist

You're right, teaching any children in eubonics is tantamount to 
child abuse. The black American Academic  Robert Sowell was 
interviewed by Dennis Prager. He makes the case that the Puritan 
Englishmen, from northern England, who settled America spoke a 
English differently than did did their southern brothers, Hence the 
different accents. Sowell contents that the northerners spoke English 
correctly.

As Dennis says, teaching anyone Eubonics is an idea that is so stupid 
that you need at least a graduate degree in order to believe it.

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Thanks for all the contributions: Swartz, Storms, Rothwell, Wesley Bruce. I
shall follow the leads and have changed my view about CF. I don't agree with
the mechanisms Storms suggested such as a charge shielded nucleons - that's
just plain wrong or 'conversion of a deuteron to a wave' what's that mean to
mean? Novel neutral particles?. 

 

Although when the experiments work you claim up to 200% excess power, this
might be dismissed as inaccuracy or a chemical reaction. For the later I
just can't see how this could run for hours or weeks or more the heat after
death effect. I'm not prepared to believe that you can all be lying; the
other options are mass delusion (possible history of science) or
incompetence. All contentious.

 

Anyway with no other means of communication than word-of-mouth, seeing is
believing and I will try to catch up with a CF meeting. Just don't make out
that CF is the only game in town and be appreciative that others with
limited resources and man-power are making huge strides too. Also they must,
by principle, play by the rules.

I really must get this bit of administration I'm doing done.

Thanks.

.......................................

Website

http://luna.bton.ac.uk/~roc1 <http://luna.bton.ac.uk/~roc1> 

.......................................

 


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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Thanks for all the contributions: Swartz, Storms, =
Rothwell, Wesley
Bruce. I shall follow the leads and have changed my view about CF. I =
don&#8217;t
agree with the mechanisms Storms suggested such as a charge shielded =
nucleons &#8211;
that&#8217;s just plain wrong or &#8216;conversion of a deuteron to a =
wave&#8217;
what&#8217;s that mean to mean? Novel neutral particles?. =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Although when the experiments work you claim up to =
200%
excess power, this might be dismissed as inaccuracy or a chemical =
reaction. For
the later I just can&#8217;t see how this could run for hours or weeks =
or more
the heat after death effect. I&#8217;m not prepared to believe that you =
can all
be lying; the other options are mass delusion (possible history of =
science) or
incompetence. All contentious.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Anyway with no other means of communication than
word-of-mouth, seeing is believing and I will try to catch up with a CF =
meeting.
Just don&#8217;t make out that CF is the only game in town and be =
appreciative that
others with limited resources and man-power are making huge strides =
too. Also they
must, by principle, play by the rules.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>I really
must get this bit of administration I&#8217;m doing =
done.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Thanks.<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
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:p></span></font></p>

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size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Website<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><a
href=3D"http://luna.bton.ac.uk/~roc1" =
title=3D"http://luna.bton.ac.uk/~roc1">http://luna.bton.ac.uk/~roc1</a><=
o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

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/font><font
size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
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Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 11:05:37 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Editing practices at LENR-CANR.org
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I would like to make it clear that I do not have an adversarial 
relationship with any authors at LENR-CANR.org. I never upload papers 
without permission, except when the author is dead (and when I knew him and 
I am sure he would not mind). In a few instances, when authors have decided 
they did not want the papers uploaded after all, I removed them promptly. 
These have been theorists who decided their theories were wrong. I have 
edited many papers, but it has always been with the friendly consent and 
cooperation of the authors. I would not think of changing a paper if the 
author did not want me to.

Steven Vincent Johnson wrote:

>It also is reasonable to assume that papers and reports submitted in PDF
>format are by their very definition BEYOND the point of needing additional
>post-editing.

Perhaps that is true of some authors, but most just write the paper, press 
a button and zap out a PDF file. Usually it is okay, but I have read and 
edited hundreds of papers, and many were chaotic. The authors made mistakes 
either in the original word processor file, or in the Acrobat conversion 
parameters. Some were so messed up they crashed the Acrobat reader with a 
fatal error. Some have pages that appear when you scroll down, and then 
vanish when you scroll up, or figures the cover up the text, or mirror 
image photographs. I often see Japanese or Chinese characters left over in 
the text encoded wrong so they come out like smiley-faces or dots. Several 
PDF files have been 10 to 100 times larger than they need to be, for no 
apparent reason.


>While I can appreciate the fact that Dr. Swartz would like to maintain total
>control over the content of his work . . .

Any author who wishes to maintain total control over a paper submitted to 
LENR-CANR is welcome to do so. That's less work for me. I would not think 
of editing one word without the author's consent and cooperation. On the 
other hand, if a paper were full of spelling errors and grammatical 
mistakes, and the author did not wish to correct it, I would probably not 
upload it. This has never happened, but anyway, I would not want the public 
to think that CF researchers are illiterate or they do not know the 
difference between "their" and "there."


>In conclusion it would seem to me that Dr. Swartz does not appear to trust
>Jed (or Ed Storms?) to carry out the intent of his word and edit and/or
>critique his work.

First, we never edit anything unless the author wants us to. Second, 
although I have several of Swartz's papers, he has emphatically refused to 
give me permission to upload any them. Obviously I am not going to bother 
proofreading or editing them!

- Jed


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I mentioned that I have several of Schwartz's papers but he has adamantly 
refused to give you permission to upload any. Of course that's fine with 
me, and I always honor the author's wishes. I wish that Schwartz would 
upload his papers somewhere, but he chooses not to.

Be that as it may, the readers here may find his work interesting, and 
while I cannot upload his papers or distribute them, I see no harm in 
sharing some of the text from one. Here is part of the first page of the 
most recent paper in my collection. People who find this interesting should 
ask Swartz for a copy. This does not look like commercial development, but 
it is interesting.

Frankly, I do not see what all the fuss is about.

- Jed

- - - - - - - - - - - - - -

THE IMPACT OF HEAVY WATER (D2O) ON NICKEL-LIGHT WATER COLD FUSION SYSTEMS

Mitchell R. Swartz, Gayle M. Verner, Alex H. Frank

JET Energy Technology

ABSTRACT
         Heavy water (D2O) yields significant increases in the excess heat 
observed for nickel light water systems for all input electrical power 
levels examined (250 to 1500 milliwatts). Gas-free spiral-wound, 
cold-worked nickel cathodes [volume 0.47 cm3, area 6.39 cm2] with an anodic 
platinum plate en face were examined near the peak of their optimal 
operating point (OOP) manifold. The peak power gain for light water [1.25 
+/-.15] increased with the addition of 3.7% D2O to 1.7 +/-0.2. The rate of 
peak excess energy generated by the nickel light water system increased 
from 0.25 +/-.05 Joules per second with H2O, to 0.36+/-0.1 with 3.7% D2O, 
to 0.5+/-0.1 with 7.4% D2O. The volume specific rate of excess energy 
accumulation as a function of the deuteron population is 6.0 [D/H] + 0.45 
Joules/sec-cm3. The surface specific rate of excess energy accumulation is 
0.44 [D/H] + 0.03 Joules/sec-cm2. The form of the OOP-manifold remains 
similar to that for light water. We report that "overdrive" loading of 
deuterons into these materials, especially at >4% D2O, and at >700 
milliwatts, produce irreversible change in the nickel, characterized both 
by gross loss of performance and synchronous irreversible lowering of the 
nickel electrode's specific electrical resistivity when examined by the 
four-probe technique [~8-9.6%].

1. INTRODUCTION
         In this paper, we report that the addition of heavy water yields 
significant incremental increases in the excess heat for nickel-light water 
cold fusion systems (platinum anode, ordinary water, and a nickel cathode). 
When examined at the optimal operating points (OOP), there are specific 
D2O-related increases in the output of excess heat, or power gain, 
produced. One important implication is that deuterons are the fuel in some 
of the reactions in the nickel systems, as they are in palladium systems. 
The loaded deuterons, especially at higher D2O concentrations and at higher 
input electrical power, produce reversible change in the nickel. These 
change make the material less able, and then unable, to produce excess 
heat. Such "overdriven" nickel reactors demonstrate very low level optimum 
operating points at or below those of a joule resistor, or a fresh cathode. 
The changes wrought include a significant lowering of the nickel 
electrode's specific electrical resistivity by ~8-9.6% when examined by the 
four-probe technique.

2. BACKGROUND-LOADING FLUX RATE IS SINE QUA NON
         Since the announcement of the discovery of cold nuclear fusion in 
March 1989, there are several reasons for the difficulty in achieving the 
desired reactions1, 2. The metal must fill with enough isotope (here 
deuterons) to obtain the desired reactions3, 4. Loading can be analyzed 
using quasi-one-dimensional models [5-8] via the fuel flux equation 
(equation 1) based on diffusivity (BD) and electrophoretic mobility . . .


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From: "Jones Beene" <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
To: "vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Slightly OT: "Progress" is our most important product
Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 08:47:17 -0700
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I wish and hope that this old GE motto: "Progress is our most 
important product" will some day apply more fully to society as a 
whole. The lack of progress in energy-related matters seems to be 
a reflection of our national ingrained inertia - the inertia of 
our more general culture.

The notion of advancement (above primitive emotions, like racial 
or religious aversion and antipathy) has been taken given 
lip-service in the past, but as far as actual "progress"... that 
is less certain. On the national level, science is still the 
unwanted step-child and possibly the hidden agenda of suspected 
"liberals" and communists.

Our national motto sometime seems to be more like - "Status Quo is 
US"

Cases in point. Looking back on this date (Sept 19) in the past 
few hundred years:

1863 - American Civil War:  the bloody Battle of Chickamauga
1900 - Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid commit their first 
robbery
1934 - Bruno Hauptmann arrested for the murder of Charles 
Lindbergh Jr.
1952 - The US bars Charlie Chaplin from reentering the country
1955 - Juan Perón is deposed in Argentina (CIA ?)
1957 - First U.S. underground nuclear bomb test
1959 - Nikita Khrushchev is barred from visiting Disneyland.
1982 - Scott Fahlman posts the first emoticon :-) to an online 
bulletin board
1985 - A strong earthquake hits Mexico City
1989 - Hurricane Hugo makes landfall in South Carolina.

Progress?

We no longer fight our Civil wars on bloody battlefields at home - 
we have moved that aggression to bloody battlefields on foreign 
lands where the lives of innocent non-combatants have been 
minimized - just "collateral damage".

No let-up in bank robberies, just less panache in the robbers

Now instead of barring good-time Charlie, we bar the renowned 
terrorist Cat Stevens from "Freedom's shores"

The CIA is no less active in overseas "regime change" - has it 
done us any good in the past? What is our image in Latin America 
now because of this intrusion? Nowadays our "progress" in foreign 
affairs seems to be that we have the religious-right, as 
epitomized by Pat Robertson, joining-in to push the CIA into more 
assassination.

Hurricanes are possibly more devastating that before.

On a more cheerful note - Thank heavens for smileys  ;-)

Jones


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 19 08:53:24 2005
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Subject: Re: Text from Swartz ICCF-9 paper - correction
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I wrote:

>I mentioned that I have several of Schwartz's papers but he has adamantly 
>refused to give you permission to upload any.

I meant "he has adamantly has refused to give ME permission."

That's a strange voice input error.

- Jed


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Subject: Re: Way-OT: Mo' de king's English
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Remi, you are putting words in my mouth that come from your own heart, mind 
and experiences. You are gifted with education and intelligence and you are 
expected to practice using that education. The issue raised by my comments 
address what happens when a society attrempts to meld cultures by law 
without having a clearly defined game plan for success. The USA created a 
failed social experiment. The planning philosophy was flawed. A society must 
not embark on a task with the intent of "just do something even if it's 
wrong".
 We, as humans, are given a brain and education to plan for success, not 
failure. The civil right program began in the 1960's was designed to fail. 
Nobody can put that much money and effort into such a task and fail unless 
it was planned. It failed because there was no plan for success.
You received your education in England and are most familar with 
Shakespeare's wording'' .. some are born to greatness, some rise and some 
have greatness thrust upon them". Left unsaid is.. unless one plans for 
success and is prepared, success comes holding the seeds of failure within.
The destruction wrought by the failed experiment is our legacy to the next 
generation and the resultant manifests itself across the world as evidenced 
by the degrading by-products such as the rejection of any moral ethic.  It 
is almost as if the plan was deliberate.
Study my words and demonstrate your belief that they contain prejudice and 
hate. You may save your time and concentrate on cleaning up your mathematics 
posted on your website. Your arguments may gain you credibility as a 
thinker.

Richard

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 9:35 AM
Subject: RE: Way-OT: Mo' de king's English


>I have appreciated all your posts on this subject. It's fascinating to see
> the extremes of human behaviour.
>
> Jed's post was great (as always on this and other matters) very articulate
> and well thought out but I'm not patronising.
>
> R C Macaulay I find you very interesting. You have your views and I can 
> live
> with that (apart from the oppression). You have said exactly the same 
> things
> that my chemistry teacher and sixth form tutor used to say! He got me at
> that age when one is very susceptible to ideas (16-18) and probably set my
> view on politics and science. I got in touch with him years later, 
> recently
> and told him what I was up to.
>
> He used to despair at my adolescent laziness but straight away played the
> race card saying it was "typical, own worst enemy, cunning". This caused
> immense damage to a young mind and I should have told my parents more 
> since
> it was their money I was burning at that place (I had a bog standard
> comprehensive education before hand). Rather than try to understand a 
> young
> person he did the old statistical analysis thing which is grouping people 
> by
> race, class, religions and so on.
>
> I realise what his problem is and he is hurting. He is of the generation
> that saw the British Empire collapse, the relegation of Britain to some
> small European power and the shock of all the wogs and fuzzy-wuzzies 
> taking
> over them economically and what's more buying British companies, asset
> stripping them, sacking the work-force (don't complain about Mercantilism
> you chaps invented it), giving the Brits orders and marrying their
> daughters.
>
> The general malaise in all 1st World societies, the decay of city centres
> and youth delinquency are good examples and was perhaps inevitable - 
> things
> need continual re-birth and purification but to his mind it is linked with
> this collapse of the BE, left-wing movements, universal suffrage and mass
> immigration.
>
> In your view there was a golden age of the Southern States before the 
> Civil
> War and then Integration. It can only be due to the same left-wing 
> movements
> - in your view!
>
>
> Now what Jed said is right (well left :) but extreme in places and you are
> on the other extreme. Not wishing to start war or wipe each other out, can
> reasonable people live together and respect each other's space in the 
> Twenty
> First Century with deeply held beliefs? Edmund Storms contribution on
> another thread was to look at ways of melding all approaches. We have
> noticed that this applies in other walks of life in a micro-setting, like
> our profession of science: TB/PS, State/Free enterprise.
>
> I put it to you R C Macaulay that yes, Blacks have plenty to learn as
> regards civil society but that would be to patronise people like Rice,
> Powell and other people we see in high office who are not figureheads. It
> seems that there is probably not something interminably wicked about 
> blacks
> (as you and my old teacher seem to think) - pay testament to Black middle
> class (US BMC who on their own would be 16th largest trading nation) but
> some very small factor of nature but largely NURTURE.
>
> Unfortunately the left is suffering from a failed dream along the lines of
> the road to hell being paved with good intentions. I reckon that any race
> that swallowed this philosophy hook line and sinker like my race would 
> have
> been doomed to failure. It's a tragedy, who else could we have latched on
> to? Initially it was the Republicans and Abe Lincoln but then we shifted
> leftward. No, you've only got to look around the world and history and I'm
> sure you will find that blacks are not uniquely wicked. You talk about a
> church being burnt down, well where I grew up the skinheads did this and
> more routinely. Their problem was lack of work from a suddenly shifting
> world economy and lack of traditional male unskilled and semi-skilled 
> work.
>
> So I'm not bothered by what you think but I must admit I admire you for
> having the balls to speak your mind; we cannot fail to learn something and
> adjust once the anger has subsided - much as in science.
>
> To draw to a close, I think old school people are going to have trouble
> adjusting to loss of empire and special privileges. Face facts, other
> emergent economies will ring circles around you as will their skilled
> professionals and women too. The future is probably Mandarin.
>
> I think your comment was of the tough love variety as practiced by my 6th
> form tutor. It can work but sometimes but can cause immense damage. The
> teacher should be learning too.
>
> Regards to everyone,
> Remi.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On
> Behalf Of thomas malloy
> Sent: 19 September 2005 09:30
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: Re: Way-OT: Mo' de king's English
>
> Jones (?) posted;
>
>>>
>>>Another case in point (the point being the humorous irrationality
>>>of life): it was nearly ten years ago now that the Oakland School
>>>Board ruled unanimously to teach Ebonics (which some argue is a
>>>dialect of English spoken by some African-Americans) in school as a
>>>second language, then backed off.  My neighbor at the time in
>>>Berkeley was a 25 year old recent Cal grad, liberal Jewish
>>>(actually a "Ju-Bu" formerly Jewish turned Buddhist
>
> You're right, teaching any children in eubonics is tantamount to
> child abuse. The black American Academic  Robert Sowell was
> interviewed by Dennis Prager. He makes the case that the Puritan
> Englishmen, from northern England, who settled America spoke a
> English differently than did did their southern brothers, Hence the
> different accents. Sowell contents that the northerners spoke English
> correctly.
>
> As Dennis says, teaching anyone Eubonics is an idea that is so stupid
> that you need at least a graduate degree in order to believe it.
>
> 


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i don't see how you will ever convince the doe to fund cold fusion if you 
can't get along

maybe we should all honor this day, me maties

http://www.talklikeapirate.com/piratehome.html

or maybe we need a new religion

http://www.venganza.org/

or both

http://www.venganza.org/sightings/index.htm

_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! 
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Subject: Re: Text from Swartz ICCF-9 paper - correction
Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 10:48:05 -0600
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>From: Jed Rothwell

>That's a strange voice input error.

i would keep my eye on that computer

-alex

_________________________________________________________________
Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee® 
Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963

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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: "vortex-l" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Home Brew Methane Generation
Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 10:49:09 -0500
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It was written.
> 
> An inverted (air purged by pushing the tank down with the drain plug removed) 6 foot diameter poly stock nesting in a 9 foot 
> diameter poly stock tank  filled with water and kitchen garbage makes a do-it -yourself unit that might give you about 60  
> therms/day of 600 BTU/ft^3 methane, John.   :-)
> 

However, other biodegradable feedstock will be required.   :-)

http://www.prep2003.com/methane.htm

"1. Electricity Generation using our Homemade 12 Volt System; this is by far the ideal. Each horsepower of our engine requires about 12, 600 BTU/hour of actual running time, as opposed to the 70,000 BTU/hour required to heat your home… since the engine is about 3.5 horsepower, and runs no more than two-three hours per day when charging batteries, the daily manure output from a half dozen cattle or a couple of hundred chickens will be plenty."

"2. Cooking: your kitchen range, if set up for natural gas, can burn methane, and requires an average of about 65,000 BTU/hour. To use it to cook your meals, and assuming about 2 hours per day of actual use, you'll need the manure from 11 cattle…or 1500 chickens!"
Lawn clippings, leaves, newsprint and toilet tissue etc.
Frederick
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<HTML style="FONT-SIZE: x-small; FONT-FAMILY: MS Sans Serif"><HEAD>
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<DIV>It was written.</DIV>
<DIV>&gt; </DIV>
<DIV>&gt; An inverted&nbsp;(air purged by pushing the tank down with the drain plug removed) 6 foot diameter poly stock nesting in a 9 foot </DIV>
<DIV>&gt; diameter poly stock tank&nbsp; filled with water and kitchen garbage makes a do-it -yourself unit that might give you about 60&nbsp; </DIV>
<DIV>&gt; therms/day of 600 BTU/ft^3 methane, John.&nbsp;&nbsp; :-)</DIV>
<DIV>&gt; </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>However, other biodegradable feedstock will be required.&nbsp;&nbsp; :-)</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://www.prep2003.com/methane.htm">http://www.prep2003.com/methane.htm</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<P><FONT face=Verdana>"1. Electricity Generation using our Homemade 12 Volt System; this is by far the ideal. Each horsepower of our engine requires about 12, 600 BTU/hour of actual running time, as opposed to the 70,000 BTU/hour required to heat your home… since the engine is about 3.5 horsepower, and runs no more than two-three hours per day when charging batteries, the daily manure output from a half dozen cattle or a couple of hundred chickens will be plenty."<BR><BR>"2. Cooking: your kitchen range, if set up for natural gas, can burn methane, and requires an average of about 65,000 BTU/hour. To use it to cook your meals, and assuming about 2 hours per day of actual use, you'll need the manure from 11 cattle…or 1500 chickens!"</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Verdana>Lawn clippings, leaves, newsprint and toilet tissue etc.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Verdana>Frederick</FONT><BR></P></BODY></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 19 09:52:54 2005
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Message-ID: <BE76853CB39E3B47B014207F18386A8F13FE86C8 moulsecoomb.bton.ac.uk>
From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: RE: Way-OT: Mo' de king's English
Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 17:51:57 +0100
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RC M. in short what was the solution to the problem back in 1962 when you
sounded out? Do you believe in integration? What were you doing to warn them
that the project would fail or did you retreat into a bunker as most people
without the strength would?

No judgment is being made (in the sense of ostracizing you). There was an
old lady called Mary Whitehouse who used to go on about all the sickness on
TV (my school tutor was a lay CofE preacher). She was the Cassandra figure
but most of it came true. She had guts but suffered immense ridicule. At
that point most people turn old and jaded.

I think the ultimate test of integration is the "look who's coming to dinner
test". When the babies come along even the most rocklike can change.

If you weren't trying to solve the problem in 1962, you were definitely the
problem. Your view and that quote "there in NO solution" seems to state that
the situation is unchangeable. In this belief system you would be prepared
to perpetrate all kinds of injustices. To me it's an either-or: *you are the
wicked one* or you just haven't thought things through. But then...

Thatcher has a similar view about S. Africa. May be she was right and the
world needed to move along and the Cold War to end. Now the PC have stifled
the debated and those saying the harshest things are locked out. I remember
a S. African saying (I'm doing the accent :) "Look, de problem wid de bleck
min is he can-not share power. Innit?" HE NEEDS TO BE ABLE TO SAY THIS. He
may be trying to help but he needs to act least he shows that he is
entrenched and not willing - he would then be the problem.


Also any comments about my work are much appreciated. What I don't find
useful is "you got a problem with the maths" where and precisely what
physical concept? Is the model getting in the way of genuine understanding
or experimental data? 

It's a cop out, no use to me and practically all I've ever had from the
science establishment and the "non-establishment" and it's beginning to piss
me off. I don't see any desire to discover or understand. To me it all gets
phoney and I don't believe anything anyone tells me. Hence my current
disdain for the admin work I have to do right now.

Misquoting NWA "To a kid looking up to me, don't do science, it ain't
logical nor democratic". Sorry, we can't all rap.

R.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 19 09:56:12 2005
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From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: RE: infighting
Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 17:54:54 +0100
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Yeah, what's this Storms Swartz Rothwell thing. Can you have it out and tell
us just what it is you don't like about each other? It's intriguing. Can you
act like grown ups for the younger crowd?

I guess some people are born never to get along.

NO SOLUTION :) 

-----Original Message-----
From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On
Behalf Of Alex Caliostro
Sent: 19 September 2005 17:46
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: infighting

i don't see how you will ever convince the doe to fund cold fusion if you 
can't get along

maybe we should all honor this day, me maties

http://www.talklikeapirate.com/piratehome.html

or maybe we need a new religion

http://www.venganza.org/

or both

http://www.venganza.org/sightings/index.htm

_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! 
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 19 10:22:59 2005
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Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 12:21:46 -0500
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From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: why the levee failed
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According to this report the levee didn't fail, it exploded 
www.halturnershow.com/DiversFindExplosiveResidueOnRupturedLevy.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 19 10:34:55 2005
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Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 11:36:20 -0600
From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
Organization: Energy K. Systems
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Subject: Re: infighting
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I hope you notice that this issue is very one sided.  I have no problem 
with Swartz other than he can not carry on what I consider to be a 
useful discussion of either his work or of the issue he considers to be 
censorship. His main problem with me has been my disagreement with his 
interpretation of his work.  Such difference of opinion is natural and 
is generally resolved by an objective, unemotional discussion, which 
Swartz does not seem willing to undertake.  As a result, I avoid further 
interaction - being busy doing more productive work and discussions with 
other people.  I hope this makes my position more clear. I'm sure you 
know of people in your life with whom you have the same problem. 
Normally, such problems do not reflect on the subject of the conflict, 
which seems to be the case here with respect to cold fusion.

Regards,
Ed

R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk wrote:

> Yeah, what's this Storms Swartz Rothwell thing. Can you have it out and tell
> us just what it is you don't like about each other? It's intriguing. Can you
> act like grown ups for the younger crowd?
> 
> I guess some people are born never to get along.
> 
> NO SOLUTION :) 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On
> Behalf Of Alex Caliostro
> Sent: 19 September 2005 17:46
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: infighting
> 
> i don't see how you will ever convince the doe to fund cold fusion if you 
> can't get along
> 
> maybe we should all honor this day, me maties
> 
> http://www.talklikeapirate.com/piratehome.html
> 
> or maybe we need a new religion
> 
> http://www.venganza.org/
> 
> or both
> 
> http://www.venganza.org/sightings/index.htm
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! 
> http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 19 10:52:50 2005
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To the tune of "Three blind mice... see how they run...."

"About" two weeks ago, authorities now admit, in a forced-disclosure =
following inside "leaks", three mice infected with the **Bubonic =
Plague** a.k.a. the "black death" which devastated Europe during the =
middle ages, went missing from a New Jersey "bioterrorism" lab.

...don't you just love the "went missing" euphemism?

The so-called "Public Health Research Institute," which is on the campus =
of the University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey say their =
"lost charges are probably dead by now." The PHRI is a prime example of =
the rapidly accelerated militarization of America's campuses - following =
the Cheney-Bush's 'War on Terrorism' initiative, which ate up much of =
the funding for such projects as Corps of Engineering Levee =
strengthening (which had been approved earlier but was put on indefinite =
hold). The lab was set up, rather quietly and furtively, but through the =
University, solely to do controversial bioterrorism research for the =
federal government, while not alarming future health-care professionals.

Errr...let's see..."the lost charges are probably dead by now"... =
riiiight...

But does their demise have anything to do with fluffy the cat being a =
little under the weather these days... and is the "black death" now =
latent in Joisy?

Inquiring minds want to know.... or as the Brits say, "shouldn't we be =
told?" And not "about" two weeks later, one might add.

But the PHRI adds that the possibility the mice were stolen, even by =
"activists" has not been ruled out. Riiiight, we have to do a little =
blame-shifting here. Why didn't they just blame it on Arabs?  The FBI =
conducted more than two dozen interviews with employees of the lab, and =
the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention too has sent =
investigators to the campus. The University is not commenting at this =
time on the investigation and wishes it would all go away. PETA is =
probably on-the-way, as we speak, according to spokesperson Kate Moss, =
"and I would go too if it weren't for this awful sinus...."

Wonder if that old shot (i.e. injection - ouch I can still feel it) - =
which they gave me for plague - back in boot-camp back in the sixties at =
Ft Leonard Wood (aka Little-Korea), is still good ?

Jones

4000 Years of Progress in the History of Medicine -

2000 B.C. - Sick? Here, eat this root, brother
33     A.D. - Dead? Brother, rise up and walk
1000 A.D. - That root is heathen. Brother, you must say this prayer.
1850 A.D. - That prayer is superstition, friend. Here, drink this =
potion.
1920 A.D. - That potion is mostly alcohol, sinner. Take our new pill and =
pass the collection plate
1985 A.D. - That pill is no longer effective, bug-mutation. Here, take =
this newer antibiotic.
2000 A.D. - That antibiotic doesn't work anymore. Here, eat this root. 
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>To the tune of "Three blind mice... see =
how they=20
run...."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>"About" two weeks ago, authorities now =
admit, in a=20
forced-disclosure following inside "leaks", three mice infected with the =

**Bubonic Plague** a.k.a. the "black death"&nbsp;which devastated Europe =
during=20
the middle ages, went missing from a New Jersey "bioterrorism" =
lab.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>...don't you just love the "went =
missing"=20
euphemism?<BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The so-called "Public Health Research =
Institute,"=20
which is on the campus of the University of Medicine and Dentistry of =
New Jersey=20
say their "lost charges are probably dead by now." The PHRI is a prime =
example=20
of the rapidly accelerated militarization of America's campuses =
-&nbsp;following=20
the Cheney-Bush's 'War on Terrorism' initiative, which ate up much of =
the=20
funding for such projects as Corps of Engineering Levee strengthening =
(which had=20
been approved earlier but was put on indefinite hold). The lab was set =
up,=20
rather quietly and furtively, but&nbsp;through the University, solely to =
do=20
controversial bioterrorism research for the federal government, while =
not=20
alarming future health-care professionals.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Errr...let's see..."the lost charges =
are probably=20
dead by now"... riiiight...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>But does their demise have anything to =
do with=20
fluffy the cat being a little under the weather these days...&nbsp;and =
is the=20
"black death" now latent in Joisy?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Inquiring minds want to know.... or as =
the Brits=20
say, "shouldn't we be told?" And not "about" two weeks later, one might=20
add.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>But the PHRI adds that&nbsp;the =
possibility the=20
mice were stolen, even by "activists"&nbsp;has not been ruled out. =
Riiiight, we=20
have to do a little&nbsp;blame-shifting&nbsp;here. Why didn't they just =
blame it=20
on Arabs? &nbsp;The FBI conducted more than two dozen interviews with =
employees=20
of the lab, and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention too has =
sent=20
investigators to the campus.&nbsp;The University is not commenting at =
this time=20
on the investigation and wishes it would all go away. PETA is probably=20
on-the-way, as we speak, according to spokesperson Kate Moss, "and I =
would go=20
too if it weren't for this awful sinus...."<BR><BR>Wonder if that old =
shot (i.e.=20
injection - ouch I can still feel it) - which they gave me for plague -=20
back&nbsp;in boot-camp&nbsp;back in the sixties at Ft Leonard Wood (aka=20
Little-Korea),&nbsp;is still good ?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Jones</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><BR><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>4000 Years of Progress in the =
History of=20
Medicine -<BR><BR>2000 B.C. - Sick? Here, eat this root,=20
brother<BR>33&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; A.D. - Dead? Brother, rise up and=20
walk<BR>1000 A.D. - That root is heathen. Brother, you must say this=20
prayer.<BR>1850 A.D. - That prayer is superstition, friend. Here, drink =
this=20
potion.<BR>1920 A.D. - That potion is mostly alcohol, sinner. Take our =
new pill=20
and pass the collection plate<BR>1985 A.D. - That pill is no longer =
effective,=20
bug-mutation. Here, take this newer antibiotic.<BR>2000 A.D. - That =
antibiotic=20
doesn't work anymore. Here, eat this root. </FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0481_01C5BD08.11CC8010--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 19 11:16:30 2005
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From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk
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> The PHRI is a prime example of the rapidly accelerated militarization of
America's campuses - following the Cheney-Bush's 'War on Terrorism' 

The paradigm for foreign policy dating back to time of empire is "wogs got
resources, we take the resources". If they could treat them fairly, stop
giving special favours and concessions to powerful lobby groups who happen
to be their enemies, they might not the do the typical human nature thing
and be bloody minded and go the exact opposite way politically than
intended.

> initiative, which ate up much of the funding for such projects as Corps of
Engineering Levee strengthening

>From a soil mechanics point of view (I'll run this past Father who is a
(ret) Structural Engineer) you dig deep down enough and you will get
bedrock. So I don't buy the stuff about silt and sinking. The Dutch have
their polders and Hong Kong airport is built on reclaimed land. 

Where there is a will there is a way!
 
  
> Kate Moss, "and I would go too if it weren't for this awful sinus...."

You know who Kate Moss is? She is some UK minor super-model (would I give
her one? mmmh? Nah, stick insect. Well that's what it is all about, girls on
billboards - sex sells). I thought this was a Brit thing and the in-joke
about her nose. Amazing the cult of personality is global and I thought that
only happened in bongo-wongo land with um big chef big dickus with um bone
through his nose with the silly tail on a stick to shoo away the flies.

That's progress! What are our descendents going to do in the cosseted future
we're creating for them? Watch re-runs of Cheers-the-next-generation?

Damn 'em back to the stone age, let 'em earn a living!
 
 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 19 11:17:04 2005
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From: "Alex Caliostro" <caliostro1795 hotmail.com>
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>From: "Jones Beene"

>"About" two weeks ago, authorities now admit, in a forced-disclosure 
>following inside "leaks", three mice infected with the **Bubonic Plague** 
>a.k.a. the "black death" which devastated Europe during the middle ages, 
>went missing from a New Jersey "bioterrorism" lab.

don't be an alarmist

bubonic plague infections happen all the time

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dvbid/plague/

-alex

_________________________________________________________________
Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! 
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 19 11:22:05 2005
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Ed wrote:

>I hope you notice that this issue is very one sided. I have no problem 
>with Swartz other than he can not carry on what I consider to be a 
>useful discussion of either his work or of the issue he considers to be 
>censorship. His main problem with me has been my disagreement with his 
>interpretation of his work. 

I'm not exactly sure of the differences between yours and Swartz's 
interpretation of his work.  I've looked at all the published stuff
on the internet and can't really seem to find the crux of the argument.
Can you help me?

BTW, Ed, as you can tell, I have a terribly warped sense of humor and
was really having you on.  I don't really believe in some vast consiracy
suppressing cold fusion, other than most scientists just don't want it
to be true.  The Pb207 thing actually happened though.

M.


_______________________________________________
Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 19 11:32:54 2005
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From: OrionWorks <orionworks charter.net>
Organization: OrionWorks
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
CC: <orionworks charter.net>
Subject: What's happening over in Naudin Land?
Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 13:31:21 -0500
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It's been strangely quiet over in Naudin Land. The last MAHG update I'm aware of appears to have been dated the end of August.

Two things come to mind:

(1) Either JLN Labs discovered embarrassing flaws in the experimental results and they have not been able to up with alternative explanations other than the fact that they screwed up.

or

(2) Some enterprise has acquired the rights to commercially pursue the MAHG ramifications and have instituted a non-disclosure agreement with JLN labs in an attempt to protect their investment.

At present, I leaning towards the first explanation. While option two would be preferable I would think we would have at least been informed of the fact that no further MAHG information would be forthcoming. As far as I can tell we've heard nothing one way or another.

Anybody have an Naudin update they are willing to share with us?

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.orionworks.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 19 11:35:20 2005
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Cartoonist Mark Fiore has outdone himself! See:

http://www.sfgate.com/comics/fiore/

Fiore is somewhat left wing, but I think most people involved in energy 
will agree with his views on this subject. See also:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/gate/archive/2004/06/02/fiorequit.DTL

- Jed


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>> Kate Moss, "and I would go too if it weren't for this awful 
>> sinus...."

> You know who Kate Moss is? She is some UK minor super-model 
> (would I give her one? mmmh? Nah, stick insect. Well that's what 
> it is all about, girls on billboards - sex sells). I thought 
> this was a Brit thing and the in-joke about her nose.


kind of was, auckshully....
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/9398569/

Hey, if one does not keep up with current events, then according 
to experts like Punch & Judy, one risks that dreaded 
outcome....that the "joke will be on you"

.....wish I could write that with the "proper" accent....



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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Alex Caliostro"


> don't be an alarmist
>
> bubonic plague infections happen all the time
>
> http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dvbid/plague/



Hmmm... somehow that is not very comforting.

Not to mention.... One suspects that the "strain" of plague which 
they have on hand at these bioterrorism labs might be a tad more 
virulent than the run-of-the-mill field mouse variety.



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>From: "Jones Beene"

>Not to mention.... One suspects that the "strain" of plague which they have 
>on hand at these bioterrorism labs might be a tad more virulent than the 
>run-of-the-mill field mouse variety.

so now our universities are developing bioweapons

this reminds me of those headlines two weeks ago

E COLI FOUND IN NEW ORLEANS WATER

if these jounalists would look around where they have their heads they would 
find lots of e coli

WWFSMD?

_________________________________________________________________
On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to 
get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 19 12:29:02 2005
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Subject: Re: why the levee failed
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I don't see how a single charge or even several charges could cause a breach
300 ft long in a concrete and steel levee.

Jeff

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "thomas malloy" <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 1:21 PM
Subject: why the levee failed


> According to this report the levee didn't fail, it exploded
> www.halturnershow.com/DiversFindExplosiveResidueOnRupturedLevy.html
>
>


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 19 13:20:30 2005
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Subject: Sponsorship request
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--=====================_601815171==.ALT
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Dear Vo,

A few days ago, I received notice that my abstract,  "How Can Cold Fusion 
Be Real, Considering It Was Disproved By Several Well-Respected 
Laboratories in 1989?", was accepted for oral presentation at the 
International Congress of Nanotechnology, which will be held on October 
31-November 4, 2005 in San Francisco.

It was actually someone here on Vortex that first alerted me to this 
conference several months ago. I contacted the organizers and told them 
that there were some interesting relationships between CF and NANO, and 
asked if they would like to know more.

I am looking for financial sponsorship for this project. The travel and 
conference fee costs total $895.

The mission of this project, as with my recent ICENES presentation, is to 
help bridge the gap between the cold fusion community and the rest of  the 
scientific community and science media .

I received a pledge today of $350 from one sponsor, and I am looking for a 
pledge(s) to cover the remaining $545. Most likely, donations at this time 
to New Energy Institute Inc. will be tax-deductible, though I cannot 
guarantee such. I expect to receive the determination letter from the IRS 
within two months.

The written paper is due by the end of this week and I would place notice 
of sponsorship on the paper, as well as the presentation.

If you are able to help, please reply OFF-LIST.

Thank you.


Steven B. Krivit
Editor, New Energy Times
Executive Director, New Energy Institute Inc.
<http://www.newenergytimes.com/>NEW<http://www.newenergytimes.com/> ENERGY 
TIMES
Your best source for cold fusion news and information.

11664 National Blvd. Suite 142
Los Angeles, California, USA 90064
<http://www.newenergytimes.com/>www.newenergytimes.com
Cell phone: (310) 721-5919
Office Phone: (310) 470-8189
Fax: (432) 577-3630

--=====================_601815171==.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
<body>
Dear Vo,<br><br>
A few days ago, I received notice that my abstract,
<font face="arial" size=2> <i>&quot;How Can Cold Fusion Be Real,
Considering It Was Disproved By Several Well-Respected Laboratories in
1989?&quot;, </i>was accepted for oral presentation at the International
Congress of Nanotechnology, which will be held on October 31-November 4,
2005 in San Francisco.&nbsp;&nbsp; <br><br>
It was actually someone here on Vortex that first alerted me to this
conference several months ago. I contacted the organizers and told them
that there were some interesting relationships between CF and NANO, and
asked if they would like to know more.<br><br>
I am looking for financial sponsorship for this project. The travel and
conference fee costs total $895.<br><br>
The mission of this project, as with my recent ICENES presentation, is to
help bridge the gap between the cold fusion community and the rest
of&nbsp; the scientific community and science media .<br><br>
I received a pledge today of $350 from one sponsor, and I am looking for
a pledge(s) to cover the remaining $545. Most likely, donations at this
time to New Energy Institute Inc. will be tax-deductible, though I cannot
guarantee such. I expect to receive the determination letter from the IRS
within two months.<br><br>
</font>The written paper is due by the end of this week and I would place
notice of sponsorship on the paper, as well as the presentation.
<br><br>
If you are able to help, please reply OFF-LIST.<br><br>
Thank you.<br><br>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
Steven B. Krivit<br>
Editor, New Energy Times<br>
Executive Director, New Energy Institute Inc.<br>
<font size=4><b><i><a href="http://www.newenergytimes.com/">NEW</a>
<a href="http://www.newenergytimes.com/"> ENERGY
TIMES</a></i></b></font><font size=5> <br>
</font><b><i>Your best source for cold fusion news and information.
<br><br>
</i></b>11664 National Blvd. Suite 142<br>
Los Angeles, California, USA 90064<br>
<a href="http://www.newenergytimes.com/">www.newenergytimes.com</a><br>
Cell phone: (310) 721-5919<br>
Office Phone: (310) 470-8189<br>
Fax: (432) 577-3630<br>
</body>
</html>

--=====================_601815171==.ALT--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 19 13:59:37 2005
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From: "Jones Beene" <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
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Jeff,

>I don't see how a single charge or even several charges could 
>cause a breach
> 300 ft long in a concrete and steel levee.

Even Rense and other conspiracy nuts (at least the ones who did 
not get credit for breaking the story) and none of them known for 
good journalism, seem to doubt the validity of this story.... 
apropos of nothing, really.

However, just the sheer volume of traffic, hoax or not, over the 
net today is sure to get the attention of the evening News. 
Tipping point ahoy!

I bet this is covered by someone tonight - with valid journalistic 
credentials (eliminating Fox) - and that it will likely be 
debunked. It is now too big a plum to ignore. Usually Slashdot is 
my "low-end" of credibility, and it hasn't appeared there yet.

Plus.... Follow the buck (or the buck-equivalent). Who benefits 
from it (other than terrorists)? You can't blame this one on 
government, and any terrorists group like Quedda would have 
IMMEDIATELY taken claim for it (somewhat surprised they didn't 
anyway).... BUT one reason that some 'spin doctors' or beltway 
Rovers might "hope" that it "has legs" is the following:
http://www.infoshop.org/inews/article.php?story=20050914120358554

Jones

OK back to reality... or at least "suspension of disbelief".... 
like what has happened to Naudin/Moller/MAHG ? 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 19 14:38:29 2005
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Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 17:37:06 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Way-OT: Mo' de king's English
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thomas malloy wrote:

>You're right, teaching any children in eubonics is tantamount to child abuse.

So is teaching children that their mother tongue is disreputable or 
substandard. In the early 20th century, this practice was taken to such an 
extreme with American Indian children, not only was it abuse, it was 
criminal abuse.

Furthermore, it is the teacher's responsibility to learn to understand his 
student's native dialect, whether it be Scots brogue, Caribbean English, a 
black dialect, or the ancient and wonderful Appalachian dialects (which 
have long been denigrated as "hillbilly" language.)

Given economic and cultural realities, it is probably best to teach all 
U.S. children to speak a standard U.S. television-style middle-class 
dialect, and to educate them in it. This is a shame because it will 
eventually lead to the demise of minority and regional dialects, despite 
all they have contributed to our language and art. I hate to think of a 
world in which only scholars will be able to understand Mark Twain's 
dialog, but that is where we are headed. It is more important to advance 
the lives of individual children than to preserve their culture as a whole. 
A friend of mine lives in a bucolic Japanese backwoods village which is 
rapidly modernizing and being paved over. This is a tragic loss for Japan 
and the world at large, but as he says, it is good for local people, and no 
one wants to live in a museum.


>The black American Academic  Robert Sowell . . . contents that the 
>northerners spoke English correctly.

He is not a scholar if he thinks any dialect is "correct" or "incorrect." 
No respectable scholar of language in the last 150 years would spout such 
backwards, ethnocentric, odious, baseless nonsense. That's like saying that 
ants are more "correct" than wasps because they evolved later, or British 
English is superior to the older American form. Newer is better?

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 19 15:21:25 2005
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Wesley Bruce wrote:

>I better outline the experiments. The maths and chemistry is error free 
>but the assumptions are wrong. The assumption of dating is that the gases 
>argon, lead
>vapor, radon etc escape from the volcanic lava before it hardens. . . .

>In one case they took about 20 samples from a lava flow that flowed over a 
>road in New Zealand, 1953. These samples are all young. They were sent to 
>labs world wide and the calculated dates came back as millions of years 
>old. When the results were published the labs scrambled to cover up or 
>explain the results.

I have to grant, it sounds like someone has uncovered a serious problem 
with the use of these instruments for these materials.

However, such problems are uncovered all the time in every aspect of 
chemistry, archaeology and biology. That is called progress. However, 
finding problems with one technique or one set of data does not mean you 
have disproved the whole of theoretical basis of modern biology. That would 
be like saying that because we have discovered cold fusion, we can now 
dismiss all of the theories and discoveries in plasma fusion.


>I just ask you to be as open to the creationists as you ask others to open 
>to the data on cold fusion.

I have been open minded. I can't help it; it's my nature to consider any 
hypothesis. But I fail to see how creationism can be falsified or tested; 
every organ that is  supposedly too complicated to evolve obviously did 
evolve because you find precursors; and biological mechanisms are about as 
unintelligent as anything could be. If there is a designer he is not 
intelligent but rather pathologically stupid or just plain malicious. Ask 
any woman in labor.


>No creationist I know of has ever attacked cold fusion.

So what? Neither has any member of the Ku Klux Klan, as far as I know.


>The creationists have had decades more experience at fighting these subtle 
>and overt attempts at suppression.

They deserve to be suppressed. They would replace science with 
superstitious malarkey. They would lead us back into the dark ages when 
people's minds were enslaved by fear, ignorance and illogic. They are as 
bad as the people who want to replace medicine with faith healing, and 
democracy with theocracy.

The only problem is that suppressing them usually backfires and encourages 
public support for them, so I think it is better to ignore such notions as 
long as we keep them out of the public schools.



>I think you have good reasons for wanting to prevent Al-Qaeda from getting 
>cold fusion nuclear subs or something.

There is not the slightest chance Al-Qaeda will *make* cold fusion devices, 
or for that matter, conventional fission bombs. The only danger is that 
they will steal these things. Al-Qaeda and their ilk are incapable of 
making any technology. Even though the Al-Qaeda leaders are trained 
engineers and medical doctors, their followers are ignorant savages mired 
in a medieval mindset that rejects modernity and all that goes with it. 
Such people could not make a bicycle, a vaccine or a transistor radio, 
never mind the airplanes they used against us, or the nuclear bombs they 
are trying to steal from the Russians. The only way they can hurt us is to 
use our money -- the money we pay for oil, that is -- to buy or steal our 
technology. And the only way we can stop them is to cut off the money, and 
help the Russians secure or dismantle their warheads.

The Chinese are a different story. If they develop cold fusion several 
years before we do, they will be in a position to develop the weapons are 
described in my book, in chapter 11. That will make their military utterly 
invulnerable. They will be able to destroy every American ship and airplane 
at the touch of a button, with no danger or inconvenience to themselves. In 
other words, the weapons technology gap will be as large as it was in the 
other direction in 1842, when a handful of British ships defeated the 
entire Chinese military and Emperor. The British used their immense power 
to force the Chinese nation to buy British opium, which addicted and 
ultimately killed millions of Chinese people. If the Chinese develop cold 
fusion and we do not, they will be in a position to dictate foreign and 
domestic policy to every other nation on earth. Let us hope they are more 
enlightened than the British were in 1842. Frankly, I would not bet on 
that, knowing the Chinese government and the way it treats vassal states 
such as Tibet.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 19 15:42:24 2005
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Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 18:41:30 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: OFF TOPIC Happy ITLAPD, everyone
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By the way, as Alex Caliostro pointed out, today is International Talk Like 
A Pirate Day (ITLAPD). Happy ITLAPD! Things like this bring us together. 
Here is a heartwarming ditty written expressly for the occasion:

http://www.radiolondon.co.uk/otherwaves/itlapd/itlapdshanty.html

QUOTE:

In honaaaar of ITLAPD, we at Radio London felt it was time to write our own 
pirate shanty.

(To the tune of 'My Favourite Things')

Cutlasses, peg-legs an' all sorts of riggin'
Plunder and pillage and treasure for diggin'
Biscuits with weevils and jellyfish stings,
These arr a few o' my favourite things.

Huge jolly rogers an' salty sea breezes
Feedin' the sharks with yer enemy's kneesies
Populaar shanties wot pirate guys sings,
These arr a few o' my favourite things.

Big 'andsome wenches with bosoms like boulders
Bad-tempered parrots wot crap on yer shoulders
Stuffin' me guts wi' fried albatross wings,
These arr a few o' my favourite things.

When the shark bites
When the mast snaps
When I've drunk me pay,
I simply remembaarr to talk like a pirate
And everythin' goes OK!

Lyrics copyright Mary Payne 2005, wi' apologies ta Rodgers 
and  Hammerstein, and Julie Andrews 


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 19 17:24:51 2005
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From: "Alex Caliostro" <caliostro1795 hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: RE: OFF TOPIC Happy ITLAPD, everyone
Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 18:23:48 -0600
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>From: Jed Rothwel

>By the way, as Alex Caliostro pointed out, today is International Talk Like 
>A Pirate Day (ITLAPD). Happy ITLAPD!

your powers of observation are quite astute

-alex

"broons all roon"

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 19 18:06:10 2005
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There is a lot more wrong with this story.

How is a diver going to find a hand sized piece of concrete in that murky
water?  Not only does he find a piece, but in zero visibility, he can also
recognize peculiar features on the rock that cause him to bring it to the
surface.  After all, this isn't the "clean" water from the canal he is
swimming in, it is "town" water.  (Is there anyone on this list that failed
to notice that on all the coverage of the broken levees and scenes of repair
work, water is flowing from the town side to the canal side!)

For a 10 lb piece of exposed concrete to lie unburied close to the levee
break is nearly impossible.  Here's a little personal experience with this
kind of thing:

I have a pond fed from an adjacent creek thru a 6" pipe.  A one foot high
dam backs up water to the pipe inlet. The dam is composed of ten tons of
high density rip rap called Trap Rock in sizes up to 200 lbs each.  Normally
I can cross this creek without getting my ankles wet.  During  a really dry
spell I have a bodily function that can exceed its flow rate.  Last summer
we had a large T-storm that raised the water level in the creek by nearly
three feet.  After the flood subsided,  I was stunned to see that all $250
worth of Trap Rock were gone without a trace and that I had a three foot
scoured out channel in its place.

The story is bogus and Turner is nuts.

Isn't it convenient that the only piece of evidence has been lost!

Jeff


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "thomas malloy" <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 1:21 PM
Subject: why the levee failed


> According to this report the levee didn't fail, it exploded
> www.halturnershow.com/DiversFindExplosiveResidueOnRupturedLevy.html
>
>


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From: "Alex Caliostro" <caliostro1795 hotmail.com>
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Subject: RE: OFF TOPIC Happy ITLAPD, everyone
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>From: Jed Rothwell

{snippet}

>When the shark bites
>When the mast snaps
>When I've drunk me pay,
>I simply remembaarr to talk like a pirate
>And everythin' goes OK!
>
>Lyrics copyright Mary Payne 2005, wi' apologies ta Rodgers and  
>Hammerstein, and Julie Andrews

you know, eventually, grog = grok

it's the (Ho)ratio which counts

-alex

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horatio_Hornblower

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 19 18:29:14 2005
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From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: infighting
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Vorts:

  Ordinarily, I would not normally respond to either Ed Storms or Jed 
Rothwell because we are too busy doing cold fusion
science and engineering, but because Dr. Storms continues his foolishness 
and disingenuity, a response IS in order.

   So, vorts, (and seekers of truth), there are two sides; and here are the 
facts:

1.  The issue is not about censorship of papers, but it is about the 
systematic censorship of ICCF-10 titles by Storms and Rothwell,
    while purporting they are the "official" ICCF-10 site.

2. The issue #1 appears to have arisen because Edmund Storms apparently 
plagiarized some of our work demonstrating
very low level excess heat on contaminated platinum cathodes (he learned 
this generation of materials produced very low level
excess heat -what he later called 'crud'- while he attended LENR-2 in Texas).
Storms thereafter apparently used his imposed egregious censorship to cover 
it up, rather than simply citing prior art.
Confirming this, we have obtained a video of him receiving this information 
prior to his becoming the second "first discoverer".
[Hence, in this light are Storms' vituperative odious endless attacks. In 
fact, Storms' recent disputed claim to have been a
'lone inventor' in the recent MAKE magazine also corroborates his 
sociopathology and disingenuity.
  "Dr. Storms is not currently engaged in research in this field as a 
"solitary endeavor" nor is he a "lone garage scientist"
     nor is he a "lone scientist" working on his own. 
...."       http://www.makezine.com/03/interview/    ]

3. The issue is not about "infighting", but about the simple fact that 
Storms and Rothwell attack anyone with whom
they disagree (and some with whom they agree).

4. The issue is not simply about their inaccuracy but also about the fact 
that when Rothwell and Storms are directed to NOT
publish something, they do anyway (as in Rothwell's recent post) again 
proving that neither can be trusted.
[Storms recent disputed claim to have been a 'lone inventor' in the recent 
MAKE magazine also corroborates this.
  "Dr. Storms is not currently engaged in research in this field as a 
"solitary endeavor" nor is he a "lone garage scientist"
     nor is he a "lone scientist" working on his own. 
...."       http://www.makezine.com/03/interview/    ]

  Finally, we (and I) have never worked with Ed Storms and so his childish 
ad hominems arise only from his own mind, in part
created precisely because of his past plagiarism and other "problems" some 
of which become intermittently obvious
when he endlessly attacks the President of the United States and America's 
allies, even while America struggles in War.
  [ Makes one wonder how many Los Alamos hard drives are missing, and how 
many secrets have been leaked?]

   We have truly tried to move on repeatedly, but Ed Storms keeps coming 
back to this matter attempting to rewrite what happened.

   Hope that helps clarify what is really going on.

      Dr. Mitchell Swartz

==============================================================================================


At 01:36 PM 9/19/2005, you wrote:
>I hope you notice that this issue is very one sided.  I have no problem 
>with Swartz other than he can not carry on what I consider to be a useful 
>discussion of either his work or of the issue he considers to be 
>censorship. His main problem with me has been my disagreement with his 
>interpretation of his work.  Such difference of opinion is natural and is 
>generally resolved by an objective, unemotional discussion, which Swartz 
>does not seem willing to undertake.  As a result, I avoid further 
>interaction - being busy doing more productive work and discussions with 
>other people.  I hope this makes my position more clear. I'm sure you know 
>of people in your life with whom you have the same problem. Normally, such 
>problems do not reflect on the subject of the conflict, which seems to be 
>the case here with respect to cold fusion.
>
>Regards,
>Ed
>
>R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk wrote:
>
>>Yeah, what's this Storms Swartz Rothwell thing. Can you have it out and tell
>>us just what it is you don't like about each other? It's intriguing. Can you
>>act like grown ups for the younger crowd?
>>I guess some people are born never to get along.
>>NO SOLUTION :)
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On
>>Behalf Of Alex Caliostro
>>Sent: 19 September 2005 17:46
>>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>>Subject: infighting
>>i don't see how you will ever convince the doe to fund cold fusion if you 
>>can't get along
>>maybe we should all honor this day, me maties
>>http://www.talklikeapirate.com/piratehome.html
>>or maybe we need a new religion
>>http://www.venganza.org/
>>or both
>>http://www.venganza.org/sightings/index.htm
>>_________________________________________________________________
>>Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's 
>>FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 19 19:07:19 2005
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Jeff,

> The story is bogus and Turner is nuts.

Agreed. Turner is not just nuts - but a racist bigot. Definitely 
Klan material.

> Isn't it convenient that the only piece of evidence has been 
> lost!

The only reason that this story has the least bit of believability 
is the *explosions,* which apparently were heard by many PLUS 
something very curious.... as in meme-curious.

The old-meme, which is a "dike-break meme" is possibly 
reverberating now, and is almost diabolical.... It all goes back 
to allegations about two previous hurricanes and levee breaks and 
explosions and flooding in black neighborhoods.

This first information is in a book by John Barry entitled "Rising 
Tide: The Great Mississippi Flood of 1927 and how it Changed 
America,"  which apparently has become heavily in demand after 
Katrina.

But the levees were also "intentionally" broken after Hurricane 
Betsy struck New Orleans in 1965, admittedly with less of an 
impact.

The tactic of breaking levees is not uncommon. Engineers today 
actually punched holes in several levees in parts of New Orleans 
where flood levels were higher than the water in drainage canals 
leading to Pontchartrain, in order to let water flow out. But the 
explosions?

There were numerous reports of explosions heard in this part of 
New Orleans. Officials say that they were transformers blowing up. 
Logical and expected *after* a break. It is all in the timing. 
There are claims that 25 "ear-witnesses" cited explosions 
immediately before the levee breach. But in these situations - 
"immediately before" and "immediately after" can be confusing if 
your are blocks away because the water moves much slower than the 
sound.

First hand reports are now appearing in many web blogs. Although 
these are obviously not authoritative sources of information, it 
is interesting to note how many local people are reporting this.

Cruel irony/coincidence - or meme-remembrance - or real 
sabotage...? Kind of reminds you of the meme-persistence of 
another more famous flood, doesn't it?


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 19 20:26:52 2005
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Subject: Re: Way-OT: Mo' de king's English
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Remi,
Back in the 1960's as I recall I was an advisor to our local college board 
acting as laison between the manufacturing business community and the 
college. My input during that time included my objection to the plan to 
integrate the public grade schools without addressing the wide range of 
cultural issues within the minorities groups. .Attempting to meld the 
different  segments of minority students into a totally new environment 
could create a new problem that would defy a later solution . Within the 
minority groups exists certain absolutes.. being .. total lawlessness, total 
immorality, total depravity, total hatred, total malice, the criminal mind 
personified. This group is a plague within the community that preys off the 
rest to such an extent they dominate regardless of their small numbers. The 
police will not enter these areas . My input was that this group must be 
separated from the majority of the minorities that were seeking education.
My input was considered discriminitory. No amount of cautioning could 
overcome the blind rush to " do something even if its wrong". The result was 
the criminal element entered the classrooms along with the seekers of 
education.
Coinciding with the downward spiral of the failed experiment was the rise of 
the " angry black man" personified by national characters that profit from 
maintaining turmoil. Had they used the strategy used by Texas A&M to blunt 
the onslaught
of "aggie jokes" much backlash would have dissappeared.
The situation has spiraled down to the the point that classroom teachers 
have become demoralized , indifferent and  dropouts. Our small town has a 
retreat center for  teachers from across the USA. They suffer from burnout 
and are sent to these summer programs  hoping to reduce the teacher dropout 
rate. More than five thousand have now passed through the courses. They have 
heard it all, seen it all and experienced daily  verbal abuse and violence. 
What is missing in their attitude is any anger or hatred toward the ones 
they hope to educate. They are perplexed by the treatment they have endured 
and mystified by the indifference of the leadership in those communities.
I carefully study your comments and surely you have become aware that I have 
given you some incentive to respond. My purpose has been to analyze your 
comments and gauge your thinking process as an aid to my counseling our 
company on employee relations. This has been my first opportunity to 
communicate with someone articulate and with a  background like yours, My 
past attempt to engage a Muslim engineer was  rather one sided ,yet 
revealing.

As  for my prejudice . I am a businessman and there is little profit in it. 
If the white American was prejudiced, the minority would cease to exist. 
Witness the historical genocidal action of nations of the world.
 There is something unique about the USA and England . I hope you grasp the 
thought as I pass on a clue.. study Ephraim and Manasseh and the gleaning of 
the grapes.

As to my critique of your math.. examine your premise and lace your math 
together with your descriptive information in a more simple coherent 
presentation. You are very good technically, you can be much better. To 
those that much is given, much is required.
Richard
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 11:51 AM
Subject: RE: Way-OT: Mo' de king's English


> RC M. in short what was the solution to the problem back in 1962 when you
> sounded out? Do you believe in integration? What were you doing to warn 
> them
> that the project would fail or did you retreat into a bunker as most 
> people
> without the strength would?
>
> No judgment is being made (in the sense of ostracizing you). There was an
> old lady called Mary Whitehouse who used to go on about all the sickness 
> on
> TV (my school tutor was a lay CofE preacher). She was the Cassandra figure
> but most of it came true. She had guts but suffered immense ridicule. At
> that point most people turn old and jaded.
>
> I think the ultimate test of integration is the "look who's coming to 
> dinner
> test". When the babies come along even the most rocklike can change.
>
> If you weren't trying to solve the problem in 1962, you were definitely 
> the
> problem. Your view and that quote "there in NO solution" seems to state 
> that
> the situation is unchangeable. In this belief system you would be prepared
> to perpetrate all kinds of injustices. To me it's an either-or: *you are 
> the
> wicked one* or you just haven't thought things through. But then...
>
> Thatcher has a similar view about S. Africa. May be she was right and the
> world needed to move along and the Cold War to end. Now the PC have 
> stifled
> the debated and those saying the harshest things are locked out. I 
> remember
> a S. African saying (I'm doing the accent :) "Look, de problem wid de 
> bleck
> min is he can-not share power. Innit?" HE NEEDS TO BE ABLE TO SAY THIS. He
> may be trying to help but he needs to act least he shows that he is
> entrenched and not willing - he would then be the problem.
>
>
> Also any comments about my work are much appreciated. What I don't find
> useful is "you got a problem with the maths" where and precisely what
> physical concept? Is the model getting in the way of genuine understanding
> or experimental data?
>
> It's a cop out, no use to me and practically all I've ever had from the
> science establishment and the "non-establishment" and it's beginning to 
> piss
> me off. I don't see any desire to discover or understand. To me it all 
> gets
> phoney and I don't believe anything anyone tells me. Hence my current
> disdain for the admin work I have to do right now.
>
> Misquoting NWA "To a kid looking up to me, don't do science, it ain't
> logical nor democratic". Sorry, we can't all rap.
>
> R.
> 


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 19 21:37:00 2005
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Jones Beene wrote:

> Agreed. Turner is not just nuts - but a racist bigot. Definitely
> Klan material.

Yes, and so much worse than those non-racist bigots we used to have.

Did anyone else happen to see the eyewitnesses say that it was an
untethered barge that ran into the levee and broke it?  Or was that
a different levee?

M.




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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 19 21:50:41 2005
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Well, I'm totally surprised by Swartz's reply because at no time in the 
past has this complaint been raised, neither privately nor on Vortex. 
So, for the record, I would like to set the record straight.

Mitchell Swartz wrote:
> 
> Vorts:
> 
>  Ordinarily, I would not normally respond to either Ed Storms or Jed 
> Rothwell because we are too busy doing cold fusion
> science and engineering, but because Dr. Storms continues his 
> foolishness and disingenuity, a response IS in order.
> 
>   So, vorts, (and seekers of truth), there are two sides; and here are 
> the facts:
> 
> 1.  The issue is not about censorship of papers, but it is about the 
> systematic censorship of ICCF-10 titles by Storms and Rothwell,
>    while purporting they are the "official" ICCF-10 site.

At no time have Jed or I said that the LENR-CANR website was the 
official site for ICCF-10.  Jed has placed papers on the site obtained 
from the authors as a service to the community while we waited for the 
official proceedings to be published. These will be released in December 
and the official papers will be placed somewhere as determined by Peter, 
with a link to LENR-CANR. If Swartz thinks a title is missing, he only 
needs to point this out to Jed rather than wasting our time here.
> 
> 2. The issue #1 appears to have arisen because Edmund Storms apparently 
> plagiarized some of our work demonstrating
> very low level excess heat on contaminated platinum cathodes (he learned 
> this generation of materials produced very low level
> excess heat -what he later called 'crud'- while he attended LENR-2 in 
> Texas).

My observation of the activation of Pt was made completely independently 
of Swartz and I'm in the habit of referencing other people's work when 
it is available to me, as anyone can see when they read my papers.  I 
know of no publication by Swartz in which he describes the effect he 
claims to have discovered. If he had brought such work to my attention 
when I presented my observations, I would have gladly given him credit.

> Storms thereafter apparently used his imposed egregious censorship to 
> cover it up, rather than simply citing prior art.
> Confirming this, we have obtained a video of him receiving this 
> information prior to his becoming the second "first discoverer".
> [Hence, in this light are Storms' vituperative odious endless attacks. 
> In fact, Storms' recent disputed claim to have been a
> 'lone inventor' in the recent MAKE magazine also corroborates his 
> sociopathology and disingenuity.

The Make magazine article was written by Charles Platt and it represents 
his impression of my work.  As is explained in the letter by Lewis 
Larsen following the article, the article was not completely accurate. I 
do not understand why this is any business of Swartz or why it is an 
issue here.



>  "Dr. Storms is not currently engaged in research in this field as a 
> "solitary endeavor" nor is he a "lone garage scientist"
>     nor is he a "lone scientist" working on his own. ...."       
> http://www.makezine.com/03/interview/    ]
> 
> 3. The issue is not about "infighting", but about the simple fact that 
> Storms and Rothwell attack anyone with whom
> they disagree (and some with whom they agree).

I have attacked no one, as anyone who has read my comments can testify. 
  However, I do occasionally disagree with people and state why I have 
this disagreement, as I have done with Swartz.  I hope this approach is 
still acceptable in science without it being called an attack.
> 
> 4. The issue is not simply about their inaccuracy but also about the 
> fact that when Rothwell and Storms are directed to NOT
> publish something, they do anyway (as in Rothwell's recent post) again 
> proving that neither can be trusted.

I have no idea what Swartz means by this statement.  Jed made it very 
clear that he publishes only with the author's permission. I challenge 
Swartz to give an example of this accusation.

> [Storms recent disputed claim to have been a 'lone inventor' in the 
> recent MAKE magazine also corroborates this.
>  "Dr. Storms is not currently engaged in research in this field as a 
> "solitary endeavor" nor is he a "lone garage scientist"
>     nor is he a "lone scientist" working on his own. ...."       
> http://www.makezine.com/03/interview/    ]
> 
>  Finally, we (and I) have never worked with Ed Storms and so his 
> childish ad hominems arise only from his own mind, in part
> created precisely because of his past plagiarism and other "problems" 
> some of which become intermittently obvious
> when he endlessly attacks the President of the United States and 
> America's allies, even while America struggles in War.
>  [ Makes one wonder how many Los Alamos hard drives are missing, and how 
> many secrets have been leaked?]

I hope political opinions are not now used to suggest that a person can 
not be believed or trusted. If this approach catches on, we can kiss 
freedom of speech goodby and all interesting discussions on Vortex will end.
> 
>   We have truly tried to move on repeatedly, but Ed Storms keeps coming 
> back to this matter attempting to rewrite what happened.

In this case, this is not a rewrite but my first answer to the issues 
Swartz raises. As I said below, I do not think the way Swartz answers 
issues about his work to be very useful, so I hope this exchange ends 
with this response.

Regards,
  Ed
> 
>   Hope that helps clarify what is really going on.
> 
>      Dr. Mitchell Swartz
> 
> ============================================================================================== 
> 
> 
> 
> At 01:36 PM 9/19/2005, you wrote:
> 
>> I hope you notice that this issue is very one sided.  I have no 
>> problem with Swartz other than he can not carry on what I consider to 
>> be a useful discussion of either his work or of the issue he considers 
>> to be censorship. His main problem with me has been my disagreement 
>> with his interpretation of his work.  Such difference of opinion is 
>> natural and is generally resolved by an objective, unemotional 
>> discussion, which Swartz does not seem willing to undertake.  As a 
>> result, I avoid further interaction - being busy doing more productive 
>> work and discussions with other people.  I hope this makes my position 
>> more clear. I'm sure you know of people in your life with whom you 
>> have the same problem. Normally, such problems do not reflect on the 
>> subject of the conflict, which seems to be the case here with respect 
>> to cold fusion.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Ed
>>
>> R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk wrote:
>>
>>> Yeah, what's this Storms Swartz Rothwell thing. Can you have it out 
>>> and tell
>>> us just what it is you don't like about each other? It's intriguing. 
>>> Can you
>>> act like grown ups for the younger crowd?
>>> I guess some people are born never to get along.
>>> NO SOLUTION :)
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com 
>>> [mailto:vortex-l-request eskimo.com] On
>>> Behalf Of Alex Caliostro
>>> Sent: 19 September 2005 17:46
>>> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>>> Subject: infighting
>>> i don't see how you will ever convince the doe to fund cold fusion if 
>>> you can't get along
>>> maybe we should all honor this day, me maties
>>> http://www.talklikeapirate.com/piratehome.html
>>> or maybe we need a new religion
>>> http://www.venganza.org/
>>> or both
>>> http://www.venganza.org/sightings/index.htm
>>> _________________________________________________________________
>>> Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's 
>>> FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
> 
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 20 02:19:34 2005
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From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk
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Subject: RE: Way-OT: Mo' de king's English
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Richard,

Short and to the point:

Just the same educational experiences can be found with working class white
youths whose parents moved out from the East End of London after the Second
World War (move the dears out of slum housing and we'll be raising them up).
Going back to my home town and seeing some of the old folks and neighbours
(alas they are now passing on) that watched over my sisters and me as
children, we all agree that Basildon and the surrounding areas has gone to
the dogs. 

My elder sister who is over a decade older than me was something of a
phenomenon in the area in the mid seventies. She had 12 O levels and 12 A
grades and did very well at A level too in the days when those
qualifications meant a lot (before they watered down the standards in the
nineties and 00s so that you see the 97% pass rate today). She played the
piano to grade 7 and was about to do grade 8. She could have easily picked
up a performance diploma (though she didn't ice skate :). She didn't do too
badly either at uni. nor her career.

By the time of my generation (late eighties early nineties) just a small
number of these white working class yobs would ruin any school. The less
strong (and very small numbers) of black minority would join in 'to be
popular' so fulfilling the low achievement expected of them.

Kinda of role reversal don't cha think?

You must say explicitly what the problem is if you are trying to help
otherwise I can only see you as a segregationist. Did you try, repeatedly to
reach out to these leftwing idealist idiots? May be the problem was one of
presentation and labels and once having labelled you, you were beyond the
pale?



Thanks for the suggestion on the papers - though still somewhat nebulous
I'll give the advice a go.
R.

-----Original Message-----
From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On
Behalf Of RC Macaulay
Sent: 20 September 2005 04:26
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Way-OT: Mo' de king's English

Remi,
Back in the 1960's as I recall I was an advisor to our local college board 
acting as laison between the manufacturing business community and the 
college. My input during that time included my objection to the plan to 
integrate the public grade schools without addressing the wide range of 
cultural issues within the minorities groups. .Attempting to meld the 
different  segments of minority students into a totally new environment 
could create a new problem that would defy a later solution . Within the 
minority groups exists certain absolutes.. being .. total lawlessness, total

immorality, total depravity, total hatred, total malice, the criminal mind 
personified. This group is a plague within the community that preys off the 
rest to such an extent they dominate regardless of their small numbers. The 
police will not enter these areas . My input was that this group must be 
separated from the majority of the minorities that were seeking education.
My input was considered discriminitory. No amount of cautioning could 
overcome the blind rush to " do something even if its wrong". The result was

the criminal element entered the classrooms along with the seekers of 
education.
Coinciding with the downward spiral of the failed experiment was the rise of

the " angry black man" personified by national characters that profit from 
maintaining turmoil. Had they used the strategy used by Texas A&M to blunt 
the onslaught
of "aggie jokes" much backlash would have dissappeared.
The situation has spiraled down to the the point that classroom teachers 
have become demoralized , indifferent and  dropouts. Our small town has a 
retreat center for  teachers from across the USA. They suffer from burnout 
and are sent to these summer programs  hoping to reduce the teacher dropout 
rate. More than five thousand have now passed through the courses. They have

heard it all, seen it all and experienced daily  verbal abuse and violence. 
What is missing in their attitude is any anger or hatred toward the ones 
they hope to educate. They are perplexed by the treatment they have endured 
and mystified by the indifference of the leadership in those communities.
I carefully study your comments and surely you have become aware that I have

given you some incentive to respond. My purpose has been to analyze your 
comments and gauge your thinking process as an aid to my counseling our 
company on employee relations. This has been my first opportunity to 
communicate with someone articulate and with a  background like yours, My 
past attempt to engage a Muslim engineer was  rather one sided ,yet 
revealing.

As  for my prejudice . I am a businessman and there is little profit in it. 
If the white American was prejudiced, the minority would cease to exist. 
Witness the historical genocidal action of nations of the world.
 There is something unique about the USA and England . I hope you grasp the 
thought as I pass on a clue.. study Ephraim and Manasseh and the gleaning of

the grapes.

As to my critique of your math.. examine your premise and lace your math 
together with your descriptive information in a more simple coherent 
presentation. You are very good technically, you can be much better. To 
those that much is given, much is required.
Richard
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 11:51 AM
Subject: RE: Way-OT: Mo' de king's English


> RC M. in short what was the solution to the problem back in 1962 when you
> sounded out? Do you believe in integration? What were you doing to warn 
> them
> that the project would fail or did you retreat into a bunker as most 
> people
> without the strength would?
>
> No judgment is being made (in the sense of ostracizing you). There was an
> old lady called Mary Whitehouse who used to go on about all the sickness 
> on
> TV (my school tutor was a lay CofE preacher). She was the Cassandra figure
> but most of it came true. She had guts but suffered immense ridicule. At
> that point most people turn old and jaded.
>
> I think the ultimate test of integration is the "look who's coming to 
> dinner
> test". When the babies come along even the most rocklike can change.
>
> If you weren't trying to solve the problem in 1962, you were definitely 
> the
> problem. Your view and that quote "there in NO solution" seems to state 
> that
> the situation is unchangeable. In this belief system you would be prepared
> to perpetrate all kinds of injustices. To me it's an either-or: *you are 
> the
> wicked one* or you just haven't thought things through. But then...
>
> Thatcher has a similar view about S. Africa. May be she was right and the
> world needed to move along and the Cold War to end. Now the PC have 
> stifled
> the debated and those saying the harshest things are locked out. I 
> remember
> a S. African saying (I'm doing the accent :) "Look, de problem wid de 
> bleck
> min is he can-not share power. Innit?" HE NEEDS TO BE ABLE TO SAY THIS. He
> may be trying to help but he needs to act least he shows that he is
> entrenched and not willing - he would then be the problem.
>
>
> Also any comments about my work are much appreciated. What I don't find
> useful is "you got a problem with the maths" where and precisely what
> physical concept? Is the model getting in the way of genuine understanding
> or experimental data?
>
> It's a cop out, no use to me and practically all I've ever had from the
> science establishment and the "non-establishment" and it's beginning to 
> piss
> me off. I don't see any desire to discover or understand. To me it all 
> gets
> phoney and I don't believe anything anyone tells me. Hence my current
> disdain for the admin work I have to do right now.
>
> Misquoting NWA "To a kid looking up to me, don't do science, it ain't
> logical nor democratic". Sorry, we can't all rap.
>
> R.
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 20 02:39:21 2005
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From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk
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Subject: RE: Way-OT: Mo' de king's English - Change the thread name????
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Also if this discussion continues can we change the name of the thread? It's
quite offensive otherwise the "lady doth protest too much".

Richard, I'm not quite sure about you but that is not the issue. It is the
same as working with pathological or true believer types. Just what is it
that makes them think they are right? Is there any merit in thinking the
unthinkable?

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 20 03:05:32 2005
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From: "John Coviello" <johnwc patmedia.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Subject: Re: infighting
Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 06:02:29 -0400
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It is simply amazing that Dr. Mitchell Swartz should even mention the word 
"plagiarism".  In his most recent issue of Cold Fusion Times he put a story 
about the Cold Fusion Colloquium at MIT in May 2005 on the front cover, 
written by me (John Coviello), co-authored by Steve Krivit (New Energy 
Times), which is the property of New Energy Times, and appeared in that 
publication first.  Ordinarily reprinting a paper is not a big deal at all, 
as long as the proper permissions are given to the republisher and the 
proper credit is given to the original authors and publisher.  Dr. Swartz 
did not follow any of these customary practices.  Steve and I would have 
gladly granted him permission to reprint our work if he had only gone 
through the proper channels.  We were both shocked to suddenly see our work 
on the front page of "Cold Fusion Times" without any permission granted and 
no credit to New Energy Times, who owns the story.  So Dr. Swartz can hardly 
complain about "plagiarism".  He didn't even bother to send me a 
complimentary copy of Cold Fusion Times, another customary practice when 
republishing someone's work.  I was not impressed at all.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Edmund Storms" <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2005 12:52 AM
Subject: Re: infighting


> Well, I'm totally surprised by Swartz's reply because at no time in the 
> past has this complaint been raised, neither privately nor on Vortex. So, 
> for the record, I would like to set the record straight.
>
> Mitchell Swartz wrote:
>>
>> Vorts:
>>
>>  Ordinarily, I would not normally respond to either Ed Storms or Jed 
>> Rothwell because we are too busy doing cold fusion
>> science and engineering, but because Dr. Storms continues his foolishness 
>> and disingenuity, a response IS in order.
>>
>>   So, vorts, (and seekers of truth), there are two sides; and here are 
>> the facts:
>>
>> 1.  The issue is not about censorship of papers, but it is about the 
>> systematic censorship of ICCF-10 titles by Storms and Rothwell,
>>    while purporting they are the "official" ICCF-10 site.
>
> At no time have Jed or I said that the LENR-CANR website was the official 
> site for ICCF-10.  Jed has placed papers on the site obtained from the 
> authors as a service to the community while we waited for the official 
> proceedings to be published. These will be released in December and the 
> official papers will be placed somewhere as determined by Peter, with a 
> link to LENR-CANR. If Swartz thinks a title is missing, he only needs to 
> point this out to Jed rather than wasting our time here.
>>
>> 2. The issue #1 appears to have arisen because Edmund Storms apparently 
>> plagiarized some of our work demonstrating
>> very low level excess heat on contaminated platinum cathodes (he learned 
>> this generation of materials produced very low level
>> excess heat -what he later called 'crud'- while he attended LENR-2 in 
>> Texas).
>
> My observation of the activation of Pt was made completely independently 
> of Swartz and I'm in the habit of referencing other people's work when it 
> is available to me, as anyone can see when they read my papers.  I know of 
> no publication by Swartz in which he describes the effect he claims to 
> have discovered. If he had brought such work to my attention when I 
> presented my observations, I would have gladly given him credit.
>
>> Storms thereafter apparently used his imposed egregious censorship to 
>> cover it up, rather than simply citing prior art.
>> Confirming this, we have obtained a video of him receiving this 
>> information prior to his becoming the second "first discoverer".
>> [Hence, in this light are Storms' vituperative odious endless attacks. In 
>> fact, Storms' recent disputed claim to have been a
>> 'lone inventor' in the recent MAKE magazine also corroborates his 
>> sociopathology and disingenuity.
>
> The Make magazine article was written by Charles Platt and it represents 
> his impression of my work.  As is explained in the letter by Lewis Larsen 
> following the article, the article was not completely accurate. I do not 
> understand why this is any business of Swartz or why it is an issue here.
>
>
>
>>  "Dr. Storms is not currently engaged in research in this field as a 
>> "solitary endeavor" nor is he a "lone garage scientist"
>>     nor is he a "lone scientist" working on his own. ...." 
>> http://www.makezine.com/03/interview/    ]
>>
>> 3. The issue is not about "infighting", but about the simple fact that 
>> Storms and Rothwell attack anyone with whom
>> they disagree (and some with whom they agree).
>
> I have attacked no one, as anyone who has read my comments can testify. 
> However, I do occasionally disagree with people and state why I have this 
> disagreement, as I have done with Swartz.  I hope this approach is still 
> acceptable in science without it being called an attack.
>>
>> 4. The issue is not simply about their inaccuracy but also about the fact 
>> that when Rothwell and Storms are directed to NOT
>> publish something, they do anyway (as in Rothwell's recent post) again 
>> proving that neither can be trusted.
>
> I have no idea what Swartz means by this statement.  Jed made it very 
> clear that he publishes only with the author's permission. I challenge 
> Swartz to give an example of this accusation.
>
>> [Storms recent disputed claim to have been a 'lone inventor' in the 
>> recent MAKE magazine also corroborates this.
>>  "Dr. Storms is not currently engaged in research in this field as a 
>> "solitary endeavor" nor is he a "lone garage scientist"
>>     nor is he a "lone scientist" working on his own. ...." 
>> http://www.makezine.com/03/interview/    ]
>>
>>  Finally, we (and I) have never worked with Ed Storms and so his childish 
>> ad hominems arise only from his own mind, in part
>> created precisely because of his past plagiarism and other "problems" 
>> some of which become intermittently obvious
>> when he endlessly attacks the President of the United States and 
>> America's allies, even while America struggles in War.
>>  [ Makes one wonder how many Los Alamos hard drives are missing, and how 
>> many secrets have been leaked?]
>
> I hope political opinions are not now used to suggest that a person can 
> not be believed or trusted. If this approach catches on, we can kiss 
> freedom of speech goodby and all interesting discussions on Vortex will 
> end.
>>
>>   We have truly tried to move on repeatedly, but Ed Storms keeps coming 
>> back to this matter attempting to rewrite what happened.
>
> In this case, this is not a rewrite but my first answer to the issues 
> Swartz raises. As I said below, I do not think the way Swartz answers 
> issues about his work to be very useful, so I hope this exchange ends with 
> this response.
>
> Regards,
>  Ed
>>
>>   Hope that helps clarify what is really going on.
>>
>>      Dr. Mitchell Swartz
>>
>> ============================================================================================== 
>> At 01:36 PM 9/19/2005, you wrote:
>>
>>> I hope you notice that this issue is very one sided.  I have no problem 
>>> with Swartz other than he can not carry on what I consider to be a 
>>> useful discussion of either his work or of the issue he considers to be 
>>> censorship. His main problem with me has been my disagreement with his 
>>> interpretation of his work.  Such difference of opinion is natural and 
>>> is generally resolved by an objective, unemotional discussion, which 
>>> Swartz does not seem willing to undertake.  As a result, I avoid further 
>>> interaction - being busy doing more productive work and discussions with 
>>> other people.  I hope this makes my position more clear. I'm sure you 
>>> know of people in your life with whom you have the same problem. 
>>> Normally, such problems do not reflect on the subject of the conflict, 
>>> which seems to be the case here with respect to cold fusion.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Ed
>>>
>>> R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk wrote:
>>>
>>>> Yeah, what's this Storms Swartz Rothwell thing. Can you have it out and 
>>>> tell
>>>> us just what it is you don't like about each other? It's intriguing. 
>>>> Can you
>>>> act like grown ups for the younger crowd?
>>>> I guess some people are born never to get along.
>>>> NO SOLUTION :)
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] 
>>>> On
>>>> Behalf Of Alex Caliostro
>>>> Sent: 19 September 2005 17:46
>>>> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>>>> Subject: infighting
>>>> i don't see how you will ever convince the doe to fund cold fusion if 
>>>> you can't get along
>>>> maybe we should all honor this day, me maties
>>>> http://www.talklikeapirate.com/piratehome.html
>>>> or maybe we need a new religion
>>>> http://www.venganza.org/
>>>> or both
>>>> http://www.venganza.org/sightings/index.htm
>>>> _________________________________________________________________
>>>> Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's 
>>>> FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
>>
>>
>>
>>
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 20 03:13:43 2005
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From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk
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Subject: RP and the BBC
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Going on from the "RE: Way-OT: Mo' de king's English" I don't agree with Jed
Rothwell either. The function of a language is to be understood by the
greatest number of people. Apparently the Queen has picked up some Estuary
English (as though she is the guardian of it tck!) so languages are
evolutionary things.

However the BBC and other UK providers have dropped "Received Pronunciation"
and we are greeted with wild accents ranging from Brummie to Jordie. Nothing
wrong with this as long as it is mild and correct and this does much to drop
the comic connotations associated with such accents (think Red Dwarf and
Lester or Cat for that matter) but a "posh accent" was a requisite for
social mobility. I'm not saying bring back the bad old days but things have
gone a little to far!?

A friend of mine out in Kent who is some 30 years older than me puts it this
way: all human activity goes in cycles from one extreme to another, be it
accents, foreign policy, people's suspicions of foreigners, how fathers hold
their children (oops what will people think if I hold my little girl in my
lap just a bit to long? Am I cold or am I a perv?).

The only conclusion is that most people are dumb and need to be lead or at
least have an example set to them.

There you go I'm non-authoritarian authoritarian, non-patrician patrician of
the right liberal leaning kind.

.......................................
Website
http://luna.bton.ac.uk/~roc1
.......................................

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 20 03:30:51 2005
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I say we book a ring and let them fight it out :) Role up, role up! In the
blue corner...

Alright, not funny.

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http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=mg18725175.200



.......................................
Website
http://luna.bton.ac.uk/~roc1
.......................................

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Subject: Re: infighting
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At 06:02 AM 9/20/2005, [Johnny C. Johnny] Coviello wrote:
>It is simply amazing that Dr. Mitchell Swartz should even mention the word 
>"plagiarism".  In his most recent issue of Cold Fusion Times he put a 
>story about the Cold Fusion Colloquium at MIT in May 2005 on the front 
>cover, written by me (John Coviello), co-authored by Steve Krivit (New 
>Energy Times), which is the property of New Energy Times, and appeared in 
>that publication first. ...


The excerpt to which Coviello refers was originally taken from an 
s.p.f.  posting
which is a PUBLIC posting where it appeared first.
  Said s.p.f. posting was posted by Coviello on May 23, 2005,
under the pseudonym "Johnny C Johnny" who is John Coviello.

One of his actual s.p.f. posts on this is below
  [complete with errors which were corrected in the excerpt].

First, attention is noted that ONLY Coviello's pseudonym was on that public 
post.

Second, we would have been glad to give credit for the excerpts to whomever
posted it, but there was only one (1) name on that and the other public 
postings.

Third, in this case that attribution appears to have been correct.

Most importantly, the fact remains is that we DID give Coviello credit for 
his article
publicly posted on s.p.f. about a conference he attended and about which he 
reported.



============= from s.p.f. feed =====================================

From: "JohnnyCJohnny" <johnwc patmedia.net>
Newsgroups: sci.physics.fusion
Subject: Here's Another Report on the MIT CF Conference
Date: 23 May 2005 08:28:52 -0700

A report on the MIT Cold Fusion Colloquium:

The moderator of this gathering was Dr. Mitchell Swartz, a veteran cold
fusion researcher. His doctoral dissertation at MIT, I was told, was in
electrochemistry. He is also a medical doctor specializing in oncology.
Here is how this one-day colloquium (5/21/05) was described over the
Internet: "Cold Fusion - Science and Technology - plus other Clean
Energy Investigations, with Special Tribute to Dr. Eugene Mallove, '69,
Cold Fusion Investigator and former Chief Science Writer at MIT. Topics
include: Science and Engineering; Discussions of Cold Fusion Materials
Science; Review of Current Literature; Experimental Results;
Understandings of Theories; Device Engineering; Discussion of Future
Developments and Commercialization Potentials. Remembrances of Gene
Mallove by family, friends and colleagues. Lunch included in conference
fees. Free for MIT Students."

The number of participants was about 60 (my own counting); 15% of them,
I was told, were students. The meeting was organized by E-club -- the
MIT Entrepreneurs Club. It is an organization sponsoring workshops
devoted to all aspects of science and technology. They meet weekly. The
event organizer, Dr. Richard Shynduroff, told me that the colloquium
had two purposes; to commemorate Eugene, killed one year ago, and to
expose interested students to the controversial field of cold fission.

The first speaker was David Nagel - the topic of his presentation was
"Evidence that cold fusion involves nuclear reactions." It was a
general review of results on production of helium, tritium, neutrons,
new elements, and x-rays. He emphasized that formation of craters and
hot spo/ts on cathode surfaces (using scanning electron microscopes)
should also be viewed as nuclear signatures. The second presenter was
Ross George; his topic was "Acoustic-induced Cold Fusion
Experiments." Ross has a company <html:/www.d2fusion.com> conducting
practically-oriented research in cold fusion. He described experiments
in which generation of excess heat was shown to be accompanied by the
accumulation of helium (up to levels exceeding natural concentration in
air). Some of his recent sonofusion experiments, generated excess heat
at the level of hundreds of watts.

The third and fourth speakers were John Dash (from the University of
Portland) and Peter Hagelstein (from MIT). Peter is a theoretical
physicist; he said that about 150 different reaction mechanisms have
been proposed, in fifteen years, to model cold fusion. In his opinion
not a single theory emerged as "much better than others." John, who
is a metallurgist, was describing results of his experimental
investigations in the area of nuclear alchemy. Using the secondary ions
mass spectroscopy method (SIMS) he was able to identify several
transmutation products. He also reported on changes in isotopic ratios
but these were results from literature, not from his own
investigations. Kim Yeoung, Tabot Chub, Scott Chub, Robert Bass and
Keith Johnson also talked about theoretical aspects of cold fusion.

Mitch Swartz talked about the electrochemical cell called Phusor. Mitch
Swartz talked about the electrochemical cell called Phusor. The
electrolyte used in this cell has a very low concentration. For that
reason the input power is only several watts then the applied voltage
is thousand volts. The highest rate of excess heat generation,
according to rapidly displayed transparencies, was 3.5 watts. During
the break I heard people saying that the device is now commercially
available; potential users are schools willing to teach cold fusion.
The most interesting part of Swartz's presentation was his discovery
(already described at ICCF10) of the optimal input power. Mitch is
convinced that high current (and thus intensive bubbling) is harmful.
In his cells the current is very small and single bubbles on the
surface of the cathode grow very slowly. But practically useful excess
heat implies large output power; how can high output power be produced
with a device of low input power?

The last presentation that I attended was that of Ken Shoulders. That
item, entitled "EOVs and Hutchinson Effect," can be downloaded, as
a pdf file, from Ken's website at <http://www.svn.net/krscfs/>. The
presentation had three parts. The first was about Hutchinson Effect
(shredding metallic structures without heat and with practically no
mechanical force), the second was about the Ukrainian project of S.V.
Adamenko (see unit # 217), and the third was about his own device --
the EV reactor and cylindrical mass spectrometer. Unfortunately, the
amount of time devoted to the third part was very limited. The speaker
before Ken was Robert Rines, the MIT patent counselor. He reminded the
audience that "in old days" a patent would not be given to an
inventor unless a working model were presented. That is no longer
required. Then he elaborated on difficulties that patent investigators
have in dealing with cold fusion claims.


This website contains other cold fusion items.
http://blake.montclair.edu/~kowalskil/cf/224mit.html





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Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 08:45:58 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: infighting
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At 12:52 AM 9/20/2005, Edmund Storms wrote:
>Storms: Well, I'm totally surprised by Swartz's reply because at no time 
>in the past has this complaint been raised, neither privately nor on 
>Vortex. So, for the record, I would like to set the record straight.

   Incorrect. It has been mentioned before to Storms.
   Like the matter of Storms' confusion of ICCF-10 TITLES vs. 'ICCF-10 
papers', he remains only 'faux surprised'.

====================================================

>Storms: At no time have Jed or I said that the LENR-CANR website was the 
>official site for ICCF-10.

    Incorrect.
    Storms and Rothwell have claimed their website to be the "Official site".
For the n'th time: This is NOT about papers, but about the TITLES of the 
papers.
    They removed the titles of papers presented by ourselves at ICCF-10,
       and if memory serves those presented by Ken Shoulders, Robert Bass, 
and others.
        [Much of this has been corrected tardively or is moot.]

==>   This has to do with censored TITLES of presented papers, and not the 
papers themselves.

====================================================

>>Storms thereafter apparently used his imposed egregious censorship to 
>>cover it up, rather than simply citing prior art.
>>Confirming this, we have obtained a video of him receiving this 
>>information prior to his becoming the second "first discoverer".
>>[Hence, in this light are Storms' vituperative odious endless attacks. In 
>>fact, Storms' recent disputed claim to have been a
>>'lone inventor' in the recent MAKE magazine also corroborates his 
>>sociopathology and disingenuity.
  "Dr. Storms is not currently engaged in research in this field as a 
"solitary endeavor" nor is he a "lone garage scientist"
     nor is he a "lone scientist" working on his own. ...."
http://www.makezine.com/03/interview/    ]


>Storms: The Make magazine article was written by Charles Platt and it 
>represents his impression of my work.  As is explained in the letter by 
>Lewis Larsen following the article, the article was not completely 
>accurate. I do not understand why this is any business of Swartz or why it 
>is an issue here.

   Dr. Larsen corrected an ''impression'" made by Storms,
and of which Storms now rather unfairly blames Charles Platt (who has done 
a great job for cold fusion).




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From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: RE: Due Diligence on CF
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> The Chinese are a different story. If they develop cold fusion several 
> years before we do, they will be in a position to develop the weapons are 
> described in my book, in chapter 11. 

> - Jed

Are you saying that CF could be dangerous? Do you all risk doing an E.
Teller by putting naked ambition before humanity?

Ars gratia artis (art for art's sake)? Heard the one about Pandora and her
box?

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Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 08:03:22 -0600
From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
Organization: Energy K. Systems
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Of course CF is dangerous.  Any source of energy is dangerous in the 
wrong hands. In this case, the danger is also economic.  Any country 
that has such a cheap and easily used source of concentrated energy can 
bankrupt any country that relies on conventional sources. Even though 
the US starts to use CF in the future, the country that starts using the 
method will always have an advantage because they will have the 
technicians and professionals who are in a position to stay ahead of 
everyone else. Of course, the originating country can always drop the 
ball as the US has done on several occasions, but that is a different 
problem.

Ed

R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk wrote:

>>The Chinese are a different story. If they develop cold fusion several 
>>years before we do, they will be in a position to develop the weapons are 
>>described in my book, in chapter 11. 
> 
> 
>>- Jed
> 
> 
> Are you saying that CF could be dangerous? Do you all risk doing an E.
> Teller by putting naked ambition before humanity?
> 
> Ars gratia artis (art for art's sake)? Heard the one about Pandora and her
> box?
> 
> 

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From: "Jim Dickenson" <jrdickenson gmail.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Interesting patent law case...off topic...long email...
Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 10:01:13 -0400
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>From Wired.com news which may be of interest.

Rgds,

Jim D.

Story location: <http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,68894,00.html>
02:00 AM Sep. 20, 2005 PT
When New England inventor Philip French had his epiphany 15 years ago, he
didn't dream it would lead to an invention that would be pressed into
service in a top-secret government project, or spawn an epic court battle
over the limits of executive power. He was just admiring a tennis ball.
The ball's seam, with its two symmetrical halves embracing each other in a
graceful curve, intrigued him. "I thought, my god, I bet you can do
something with that kind of shape," he recalls. He was right. French and two
colleagues went on to design and patent a device now called the Crater
Coupler, a simple, foolproof connector for linking one pipe or cable to
another without nut threads or bolted flanges.
The device is interesting on its own, but the broader legal legacy of the
invention may be more important. In a little-noticed opinion this month, a
federal appeals court ruled against the Crater Coupler patent holders and
upheld a sweeping interpretation of the controversial "state secrets
privilege" -- an executive power handed down from the English throne under
common law that lets the government effectively kill civil lawsuits deemed a
threat to national security, even if the state is not a party to the suit.
The ruling is notable as a rare appellate interpretation of the state
secrets privilege as it applies to patent holders. As such, it is a
potentially worrying development for inventors -- particularly those
developing weapons, surveillance and anti-terror technologies for government
contractors -- who may find infringement claims dismissed without a hearing
under the auspices of national security. It also offers a fascinating, if
limited, view into the machinery of official secrecy at a time when the
privilege is being exercised as never before.
"It's the most powerful privilege the government has," says William Weaver,
senior adviser to the National Security Whistleblowers Coalition. "It's the
nuclear option. It never fails."
French says he and his partners -- Charles Monty and Steven Van Keiren --
got the first inkling of a national security application for the Crater
Coupler a decade ago. While shopping the new design around to "a whole mess
of quick-disconnect companies," the trio received an intriguing inquiry from
Lucent Technologies, the reincarnation of the legendary Bell Labs research
center, and at that time still part of AT&T.
Lucent wanted to evaluate the Crater Coupler for use as a fiber-optic
"wetmate" -- an airtight connector for two fiber-optic cables designed to
operate underwater. It was part of a contract with a U.S. government agency
that, the company said, would have to remain unnamed. "It was a secret black
job, they couldn't divulge what it was for," says French. "Who it was for,
the Navy or the CIA, or who knows, they never said."
A Lucent spokesman confirmed that the company had contact with French in
1995, but wouldn't discuss the details, citing government secrecy concerns.
But according to French, the inventors agreed to help Lucent try to adapt
the Crater Coupler to the company's needs, with the expectation that Lucent
would license the group's patent if it all worked out. The inventors sent
over plans, sketches and a model, and French began consulting and advising a
Lucent engineer in monthly phone calls.
After about a year of development and testing, Lucent had good news for the
inventors: The device passed all the tests, shaming a competing, clunky
design that French says resembled an old thermos. But when the inventors got
on the phone with Lucent's lawyers to discuss license terms, the company
dropped a bomb. "Almost the first thing they said was, 'Well, we don't have
to do anything, because this is under some sort of provision for military
secret stuff where we don't have to pay anything,'" says French.
French felt betrayed. "This was after a year of encouragement, with me
helping them and them informing us of their progress," says French. "That
was one hell of a shock."
Lucent eventually offered the inventors $100,000 for the right to produce
1,000 wetmate couplers. The offer caused a rift between French and his
partners: They wanted to make a counteroffer of $500,000, but French -- in
his 60s and recently retired -- wanted to take what was on the table. "I
said, well, Lucent doesn't have to do a thing, so why don't we take $100,000
and be happy with that?"
Unable to agree, French's partners bought him out for a flat $30,000. "I
used some of the money to have a garage built," French says.
Lucent rejected the remaining inventors' counteroffer, and in 1998 Monty and
Van Keiren, now incorporated as Crater Corp., filed a federal lawsuit in
eastern Missouri against Lucent alleging patent
<http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=
1&u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=5,286,129.WKU.&OS=PN/5,286,129&RS=
PN/5,286,129> infringement, trade-secret theft and breach of contract.
Crater's attorney, Robert Schultz, says there's a question of basic
fairness. "Lucent's made a ton of dough, and my clients are out in the
cold," says Schultz.
The patent-infringement portion of the case has since been dismissed, under
a federal law that says a company can't be sued for infringement if the
development was for the exclusive use of the government.
After a year of pretrial wrangling, the case had progressed to the point
that Schultz could start subpoenaing documents to support his claim, when
the government intervened to assert the state secrets privilege.
Never passed by Congress, the privilege has its roots in English common law
and was cemented into American jurisprudence by a landmark 1953 Supreme
Court case titled U.S. v. Reynolds. In Reynolds, the widows of three men who
died in a mysterious Air Force crash sued the government, and U.S. officials
tried to quash the lawsuit by claiming that they couldn't release any
information about the accident without endangering national security. The
Supreme Court upheld the claim, establishing a legal precedent that today
allows the executive branch to block the release of information in any civil
suit -- even if the government isn't the one being sued.
According to research by Weaver, an associate professor of political science
at the University of Texas, the government invoked the privilege only four
more times in the next 23 years. But following the Watergate scandal, the
executive branch began applying state secrecy claims more liberally. Between
1977 and 2001, there were at least 51 civil lawsuits in which the government
claimed the state secrets privilege -- in every case successfully.
"There was more oversight of presidential activity" after Watergate, says
Weaver. "In response to that, I think presidents resorted to the state
secrets privilege to keep that oversight from cramping their style."
Under Reynolds, the head of a federal agency must personally intervene to
invoke the privilege. In Crater v. Lucent, it was Richard J. Danzig,
then-secretary of the Navy, who did the honors. In a March 1999 declaration,
Danzig claimed that permitting Crater to pursue a legal inquiry into the
government's alleged use of their coupler would tip off U.S. adversaries to
certain highly classified government operations and "could be expected to
cause extremely grave damage to national security."
"Those operations and programs are currently ongoing," Danzig wrote. "It is
therefore my opinion that disclosure of information concerning them would
permit potential adversaries to adopt specific measures to defeat or
otherwise impair the effectiveness of those operations and programs."
Judge E. Richard Webber granted the government's request immediately, and
blocked the Crater inventors from obtaining any information from Lucent or
the feds about the government's alleged use of the Crater Coupler or any
other coupling device. In the legal battle that followed, it emerged that
the order covered an astonishing 26,000 documents -- some of which were not
only unclassified, but had already been entered into the public record. In
2002, Webber examined those documents in chambers, and concluded that not
one of them would be available for Crater's use in pressing its case.
Schultz turned to the Federal Circuit Court of Appeals. This month a divided
three-judge panel ruled
<http://www.ctd.uscourts.gov/Opinions/090905JCH.DoeOP.pdf> (.pdf) that the
lower court had properly applied the state secrets privilege. "I would have
thought that courts would be more hesitant to apply it to the patent area,
but in this case there was no hesitancy whatsoever," says Weaver.
In a dissenting opinion, Circuit Judge Pauline Newman wrote that the ruling
efficiently killed Crater's lawsuit, and argued that a saner solution would
have been to proceed with the case behind closed doors -- a procedure
already used to protect classified information during criminal espionage
prosecutions.
"Although there may be areas of such sensitivity that no judicial exposure
can be countenanced -- such as, perhaps, the formation of the Manhattan
Project -- there is no suggestion that the sensitive information concerning
the Crater Coupler cannot be protected by well-established judicial
procedures for preserving the security of sensitive information," Newman
wrote.
Schultz argues that the secrecy order shouldn't apply to documents
concerning an unclassified presentation that Lucent held in which it
allegedly showed off the Crater Coupler. He plans to ask for a rehearing of
the appeal but claims to be optimistic that the case can proceed with or
without access to the evidence.
If so, it would be a rarity, says Steven Aftergood, director of the
Federation of American Scientists' Project on Government Secrecy. "The
privilege has worked very effectively for the government," says Aftergood.
"In almost every case where they've invoked it, it leads to the termination
of litigation."
Indeed, the list of cases in which the state secrets privilege has been
invoked seems a pantheon of injustice. The privilege was upheld in 1982 to
prevent former Vietnam War protestors from learning more about an illegal
CIA and NSA electronic surveillance effort that targeted them during the
1970s. In 1991, it was used to stop a lawsuit by a banker who'd unwittingly
been roped into an illegal CIA money-laundering operation, and who claimed
the agency had ruined his career when he tried to get out.
In 1998, workers at the Nevada airbase known colloquially as Area 51 were
blocked from learning what chemicals they'd been exposed to during illegal
burning of toxic waste by base administrators.
In 2004, the Bush administration resorted to the privilege to silence former
FBI translator Sibel Edmonds, who said she was fired from the bureau after
reporting security breaches and misconduct in the agency's translation
program. And in perhaps the most disturbing case, this year the Justice
Department asserted the privilege to kill a lawsuit by Maher Arar
<http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/arar/>, a Syrian-born Canadian citizen
who, in 2002, was picked up by U.S. officials as a suspected terrorist while
changing planes at JFK, and promptly shipped off to Syria for a year of
imprisonment and torture.
"Here's a guy who was a victim of a crime, that is, kidnapping, who was sent
by us to a foreign country to be tortured to get information for us," says
Weaver. "That violates all kinds of laws and the Convention Against Torture
and who knows what else."
Weaver says the state secrets privilege is a blunt instrument that too often
utterly obliterates any further inquiry by the plaintiffs in a civil case.
"I'm not saying it's always invoked for evil purposes -- it almost certainly
is not. But we can't tell when it is, and that's the problem." He faults
Jimmy Carter for being the first president to use the privilege with
frequency, and George W. Bush for using it systematically. "This presidency
is the first one in history to use the secrecy privilege in a programmatic,
organized comprehensive policy," Weaver says. "It's the first secrecy
presidency."
"It effectively shuts down the judicial process," says Aftergood. "It tells
people that they cannot have their day in court because national security
will not permit it, and that's a terrible message to send."
Justice Department spokeswoman Cynthia Magnuson says the department
generally doesn't comment on how the state secrets privilege is applied.
"The only thing I can say is it's applied if appropriate only," she says.
But if the outcome sometimes seems unjust, it's a necessary trade-off to
preserve national security, says Washington attorney Shannen Coffin, a
lawyer at Steptoe and Johnson and a former U.S. deputy assistant attorney
general from 2002 to 2004.
"That is the balance the court has struck in certain circumstances," says
Coffin. "A lawsuit that relates to monetary damages isn't nearly as
important as protecting the security of the American people."
While at the Justice Department, Coffin was involved in several cases
asserting the privilege. "I've been in meetings with cabinet officials that
have invoked the privilege, and they don't take it lightly," Coffin says.
If there's been an increase in the exercise of the privilege, "It is simply
a recognition that information is a weapon in the modern day and age," says
Coffin. "And that is a serious concern for national security."
Coffin says bold action, like withholding 26,000 documents in the Crater
case, is sometimes necessary to prevent a U.S. adversary from compiling bits
and pieces of seemingly harmless, unclassified information into a state
secret. That "mosaic theory" of national security is frequently cited in
litigation surrounding the privilege, and Department of Justice attorney
Lisa Olson raised the argument in the Crater case last year.
"The more information that is disclosed, the easier it becomes to disclose
more, and soon the floodgates are opened and nothing is secret," Olson told
Judge Webber.
A Navy spokeswoman declined to comment on the Crater case, but outside
experts say it's easy enough to guess the nature of the top-secret project
the government is protecting. "It's all but self-evident that it has to do
with the clandestine monitoring of fiber-optics communications cables on the
ocean floor," says Aftergood.
"They've been interested in it since the first fiber-optic cable was ever
invented," says James Bamford, author of two books on the NSA. "It's clear
that they have a major operation in terms of tapping into sea cables."
Fiber-optic cables were well on their way to supplanting less-secure
communications technologies at the time that Lucent approached the Crater
inventors, and it's been widely reported that the switch threatened to cut
off the electronic spies at the NSA. "There's been this huge shift from
using satellite communications, which is very easy to tap into, to using
both terrestrial and transoceanic fiber-optic cables, and that's presented a
major problem for NSA," says Bamford.
To counter that problem, and keep the electronic intelligence flowing, NSA
has reportedly developed sophisticated techniques
<http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9595_22-529826.html> for wiretapping undersea
cables, relying on specially equipped Navy submarines, the most advanced of
which is the newly recommissioned USS Jimmy Carter, fresh from a $1 billion
upgrade that reportedly includes state-of-the-art technology for tapping
into undersea fiber-optic communications.
French, now 74 and living in Maine, is not a party to the case since his
partners bought out his interest in the invention. But he still has bad
feelings over the affair.
"If it had been war time, World War II, I'd have given it to them. But if
they're hiding behind some friggin' law, basically to screw somebody...."
says French, trailing off.
Lucent spokesman John Skalko says the court's secrecy order prevents him
from addressing the inventors' claims in depth. "We deny any breach of
contract or any misappropriation of trade secrets," says Skalko.
"You can't try this case in your publication, it's only to be tried in a
court of law," Skalko adds -- a prospect that seems increasingly unlikely.
End....

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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michael Foster" <michael.foster excite.com>

>> Agreed. Turner is not just nuts - but a racist bigot. 
>> Definitely
>> Klan material.

> Yes, and so much worse than those non-racist bigots we used to 
> have.

If you are implying the two words are synonomous, that is 
incorrect. A racist is a subset, but in fact the great majority of 
bigots are not overtly racist. Case in point: the term 'bigot' is 
most often applied these days to religion, but even the most 
ardent religious bigots, like Pat Roberstson and the other 
televangelists, are seldom racist - in fact these religious bigots 
often make open attempts to publicly demonstate non-racism. Their 
private opinions may be another matter.

> Did anyone else happen to see the eyewitnesses say that it was 
> an
> untethered barge that ran into the levee and broke it?  Or was 
> that
> a different levee?

No same levee and thanks for mentioning this. Here is a report:
http://www.rense.com/general67/loose.htm

And this makes a lot of sense. Barge (mass 500,000 kg??) strikes 
levee, levee breaks, water gushes in to already saturated streets, 
knocking down some utility poses, trasnformers explode, water 
builds up further and is noticed shortly thereafter by residendes 
some few streets away from the levee, who cannot see the barge. 
Residents now believe that the explosion, not the barge was the 
cause of the breach since they heard the explosion before they 
noticed the rapidly rising water.


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From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: RE: Due Diligence on CF
Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 15:21:17 +0100
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But you would admit rather easier than a f.ss.on device.

Oh no! I'm not going down that route of discussing f.ss.on devices in detail
on a public webserver. Oh no! I don't want to raided, tortured, sent to
Guantanemo and then denied legal process.

Let me state categorically: I'm a lapsed CofE, I've only been in a mosque
once! I love T Blair, I love Dubya, I love the Queen, I love the West, I
think the status quo is just great. Honest,...., honest! No joke!!

Anyone at MI5/6/GCHQ reading this, you've got a sense of humour, right!?

Echelon, echo, echo, echo. I must learn to love big brudder, I must learn to
love big brudder.

-----Original Message-----
From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On
Behalf Of Edmund Storms
Sent: 20 September 2005 15:03
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Due Diligence on CF

Of course CF is dangerous.  Any source of energy is dangerous in the 
wrong hands. In this case, the danger is also economic.  Any country 
that has such a cheap and easily used source of concentrated energy can 
bankrupt any country that relies on conventional sources. Even though 
the US starts to use CF in the future, the country that starts using the 
method will always have an advantage because they will have the 
technicians and professionals who are in a position to stay ahead of 
everyone else. Of course, the originating country can always drop the 
ball as the US has done on several occasions, but that is a different 
problem.

Ed

R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk wrote:

>>The Chinese are a different story. If they develop cold fusion several 
>>years before we do, they will be in a position to develop the weapons are 
>>described in my book, in chapter 11. 
> 
> 
>>- Jed
> 
> 
> Are you saying that CF could be dangerous? Do you all risk doing an E.
> Teller by putting naked ambition before humanity?
> 
> Ars gratia artis (art for art's sake)? Heard the one about Pandora and her
> box?
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 20 07:24:34 2005
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-----Original Message-----
From: Cornwall Remi 
Sent: 20 September 2005 15:09
To: 'jrdickenson gmail.com'
Subject: RE: Interesting patent law case...off topic...long email...

Easy way around this: Publish the day after you file on the internet (could
even do it the same day but that is a technicality).

It takes about 10 days for them to get back to you with the PO paperwork.

Good 'ole http it's a threat to xxxcracy (insert your favourite xxx)

-----Original Message-----
From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On
Behalf Of Jim Dickenson
Sent: 20 September 2005 15:01
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Interesting patent law case...off topic...long email...

>From Wired.com news which may be of interest.

Rgds,

Jim D.

Story location: <http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,68894,00.html>
02:00 AM Sep. 20, 2005 PT
When New England inventor Philip French had his epiphany 15 years ago, he
didn't dream it would lead to an invention that would be pressed into
service in a top-secret government project, or spawn an epic court battle
over the limits of executive power. He was just admiring a tennis ball.
The ball's seam, with its two symmetrical halves embracing each other in a
graceful curve, intrigued him. "I thought, my god, I bet you can do
something with that kind of shape," he recalls. He was right. French and two
colleagues went on to design and patent a device now called the Crater
Coupler, a simple, foolproof connector for linking one pipe or cable to
another without nut threads or bolted flanges.
The device is interesting on its own, but the broader legal legacy of the
invention may be more important. In a little-noticed opinion this month, a
federal appeals court ruled against the Crater Coupler patent holders and
upheld a sweeping interpretation of the controversial "state secrets
privilege" -- an executive power handed down from the English throne under
common law that lets the government effectively kill civil lawsuits deemed a
threat to national security, even if the state is not a party to the suit.
The ruling is notable as a rare appellate interpretation of the state
secrets privilege as it applies to patent holders. As such, it is a
potentially worrying development for inventors -- particularly those
developing weapons, surveillance and anti-terror technologies for government
contractors -- who may find infringement claims dismissed without a hearing
under the auspices of national security. It also offers a fascinating, if
limited, view into the machinery of official secrecy at a time when the
privilege is being exercised as never before.
"It's the most powerful privilege the government has," says William Weaver,
senior adviser to the National Security Whistleblowers Coalition. "It's the
nuclear option. It never fails."
French says he and his partners -- Charles Monty and Steven Van Keiren --
got the first inkling of a national security application for the Crater
Coupler a decade ago. While shopping the new design around to "a whole mess
of quick-disconnect companies," the trio received an intriguing inquiry from
Lucent Technologies, the reincarnation of the legendary Bell Labs research
center, and at that time still part of AT&T.
Lucent wanted to evaluate the Crater Coupler for use as a fiber-optic
"wetmate" -- an airtight connector for two fiber-optic cables designed to
operate underwater. It was part of a contract with a U.S. government agency
that, the company said, would have to remain unnamed. "It was a secret black
job, they couldn't divulge what it was for," says French. "Who it was for,
the Navy or the CIA, or who knows, they never said."
A Lucent spokesman confirmed that the company had contact with French in
1995, but wouldn't discuss the details, citing government secrecy concerns.
But according to French, the inventors agreed to help Lucent try to adapt
the Crater Coupler to the company's needs, with the expectation that Lucent
would license the group's patent if it all worked out. The inventors sent
over plans, sketches and a model, and French began consulting and advising a
Lucent engineer in monthly phone calls.
After about a year of development and testing, Lucent had good news for the
inventors: The device passed all the tests, shaming a competing, clunky
design that French says resembled an old thermos. But when the inventors got
on the phone with Lucent's lawyers to discuss license terms, the company
dropped a bomb. "Almost the first thing they said was, 'Well, we don't have
to do anything, because this is under some sort of provision for military
secret stuff where we don't have to pay anything,'" says French.
French felt betrayed. "This was after a year of encouragement, with me
helping them and them informing us of their progress," says French. "That
was one hell of a shock."
Lucent eventually offered the inventors $100,000 for the right to produce
1,000 wetmate couplers. The offer caused a rift between French and his
partners: They wanted to make a counteroffer of $500,000, but French -- in
his 60s and recently retired -- wanted to take what was on the table. "I
said, well, Lucent doesn't have to do a thing, so why don't we take $100,000
and be happy with that?"
Unable to agree, French's partners bought him out for a flat $30,000. "I
used some of the money to have a garage built," French says.
Lucent rejected the remaining inventors' counteroffer, and in 1998 Monty and
Van Keiren, now incorporated as Crater Corp., filed a federal lawsuit in
eastern Missouri against Lucent alleging patent
<http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=
1&u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=5,286,129.WKU.&OS=PN/5,286,129&RS=
PN/5,286,129> infringement, trade-secret theft and breach of contract.
Crater's attorney, Robert Schultz, says there's a question of basic
fairness. "Lucent's made a ton of dough, and my clients are out in the
cold," says Schultz.
The patent-infringement portion of the case has since been dismissed, under
a federal law that says a company can't be sued for infringement if the
development was for the exclusive use of the government.
After a year of pretrial wrangling, the case had progressed to the point
that Schultz could start subpoenaing documents to support his claim, when
the government intervened to assert the state secrets privilege.
Never passed by Congress, the privilege has its roots in English common law
and was cemented into American jurisprudence by a landmark 1953 Supreme
Court case titled U.S. v. Reynolds. In Reynolds, the widows of three men who
died in a mysterious Air Force crash sued the government, and U.S. officials
tried to quash the lawsuit by claiming that they couldn't release any
information about the accident without endangering national security. The
Supreme Court upheld the claim, establishing a legal precedent that today
allows the executive branch to block the release of information in any civil
suit -- even if the government isn't the one being sued.
According to research by Weaver, an associate professor of political science
at the University of Texas, the government invoked the privilege only four
more times in the next 23 years. But following the Watergate scandal, the
executive branch began applying state secrecy claims more liberally. Between
1977 and 2001, there were at least 51 civil lawsuits in which the government
claimed the state secrets privilege -- in every case successfully.
"There was more oversight of presidential activity" after Watergate, says
Weaver. "In response to that, I think presidents resorted to the state
secrets privilege to keep that oversight from cramping their style."
Under Reynolds, the head of a federal agency must personally intervene to
invoke the privilege. In Crater v. Lucent, it was Richard J. Danzig,
then-secretary of the Navy, who did the honors. In a March 1999 declaration,
Danzig claimed that permitting Crater to pursue a legal inquiry into the
government's alleged use of their coupler would tip off U.S. adversaries to
certain highly classified government operations and "could be expected to
cause extremely grave damage to national security."
"Those operations and programs are currently ongoing," Danzig wrote. "It is
therefore my opinion that disclosure of information concerning them would
permit potential adversaries to adopt specific measures to defeat or
otherwise impair the effectiveness of those operations and programs."
Judge E. Richard Webber granted the government's request immediately, and
blocked the Crater inventors from obtaining any information from Lucent or
the feds about the government's alleged use of the Crater Coupler or any
other coupling device. In the legal battle that followed, it emerged that
the order covered an astonishing 26,000 documents -- some of which were not
only unclassified, but had already been entered into the public record. In
2002, Webber examined those documents in chambers, and concluded that not
one of them would be available for Crater's use in pressing its case.
Schultz turned to the Federal Circuit Court of Appeals. This month a divided
three-judge panel ruled
<http://www.ctd.uscourts.gov/Opinions/090905JCH.DoeOP.pdf> (.pdf) that the
lower court had properly applied the state secrets privilege. "I would have
thought that courts would be more hesitant to apply it to the patent area,
but in this case there was no hesitancy whatsoever," says Weaver.
In a dissenting opinion, Circuit Judge Pauline Newman wrote that the ruling
efficiently killed Crater's lawsuit, and argued that a saner solution would
have been to proceed with the case behind closed doors -- a procedure
already used to protect classified information during criminal espionage
prosecutions.
"Although there may be areas of such sensitivity that no judicial exposure
can be countenanced -- such as, perhaps, the formation of the Manhattan
Project -- there is no suggestion that the sensitive information concerning
the Crater Coupler cannot be protected by well-established judicial
procedures for preserving the security of sensitive information," Newman
wrote.
Schultz argues that the secrecy order shouldn't apply to documents
concerning an unclassified presentation that Lucent held in which it
allegedly showed off the Crater Coupler. He plans to ask for a rehearing of
the appeal but claims to be optimistic that the case can proceed with or
without access to the evidence.
If so, it would be a rarity, says Steven Aftergood, director of the
Federation of American Scientists' Project on Government Secrecy. "The
privilege has worked very effectively for the government," says Aftergood.
"In almost every case where they've invoked it, it leads to the termination
of litigation."
Indeed, the list of cases in which the state secrets privilege has been
invoked seems a pantheon of injustice. The privilege was upheld in 1982 to
prevent former Vietnam War protestors from learning more about an illegal
CIA and NSA electronic surveillance effort that targeted them during the
1970s. In 1991, it was used to stop a lawsuit by a banker who'd unwittingly
been roped into an illegal CIA money-laundering operation, and who claimed
the agency had ruined his career when he tried to get out.
In 1998, workers at the Nevada airbase known colloquially as Area 51 were
blocked from learning what chemicals they'd been exposed to during illegal
burning of toxic waste by base administrators.
In 2004, the Bush administration resorted to the privilege to silence former
FBI translator Sibel Edmonds, who said she was fired from the bureau after
reporting security breaches and misconduct in the agency's translation
program. And in perhaps the most disturbing case, this year the Justice
Department asserted the privilege to kill a lawsuit by Maher Arar
<http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/arar/>, a Syrian-born Canadian citizen
who, in 2002, was picked up by U.S. officials as a suspected terrorist while
changing planes at JFK, and promptly shipped off to Syria for a year of
imprisonment and torture.
"Here's a guy who was a victim of a crime, that is, kidnapping, who was sent
by us to a foreign country to be tortured to get information for us," says
Weaver. "That violates all kinds of laws and the Convention Against Torture
and who knows what else."
Weaver says the state secrets privilege is a blunt instrument that too often
utterly obliterates any further inquiry by the plaintiffs in a civil case.
"I'm not saying it's always invoked for evil purposes -- it almost certainly
is not. But we can't tell when it is, and that's the problem." He faults
Jimmy Carter for being the first president to use the privilege with
frequency, and George W. Bush for using it systematically. "This presidency
is the first one in history to use the secrecy privilege in a programmatic,
organized comprehensive policy," Weaver says. "It's the first secrecy
presidency."
"It effectively shuts down the judicial process," says Aftergood. "It tells
people that they cannot have their day in court because national security
will not permit it, and that's a terrible message to send."
Justice Department spokeswoman Cynthia Magnuson says the department
generally doesn't comment on how the state secrets privilege is applied.
"The only thing I can say is it's applied if appropriate only," she says.
But if the outcome sometimes seems unjust, it's a necessary trade-off to
preserve national security, says Washington attorney Shannen Coffin, a
lawyer at Steptoe and Johnson and a former U.S. deputy assistant attorney
general from 2002 to 2004.
"That is the balance the court has struck in certain circumstances," says
Coffin. "A lawsuit that relates to monetary damages isn't nearly as
important as protecting the security of the American people."
While at the Justice Department, Coffin was involved in several cases
asserting the privilege. "I've been in meetings with cabinet officials that
have invoked the privilege, and they don't take it lightly," Coffin says.
If there's been an increase in the exercise of the privilege, "It is simply
a recognition that information is a weapon in the modern day and age," says
Coffin. "And that is a serious concern for national security."
Coffin says bold action, like withholding 26,000 documents in the Crater
case, is sometimes necessary to prevent a U.S. adversary from compiling bits
and pieces of seemingly harmless, unclassified information into a state
secret. That "mosaic theory" of national security is frequently cited in
litigation surrounding the privilege, and Department of Justice attorney
Lisa Olson raised the argument in the Crater case last year.
"The more information that is disclosed, the easier it becomes to disclose
more, and soon the floodgates are opened and nothing is secret," Olson told
Judge Webber.
A Navy spokeswoman declined to comment on the Crater case, but outside
experts say it's easy enough to guess the nature of the top-secret project
the government is protecting. "It's all but self-evident that it has to do
with the clandestine monitoring of fiber-optics communications cables on the
ocean floor," says Aftergood.
"They've been interested in it since the first fiber-optic cable was ever
invented," says James Bamford, author of two books on the NSA. "It's clear
that they have a major operation in terms of tapping into sea cables."
Fiber-optic cables were well on their way to supplanting less-secure
communications technologies at the time that Lucent approached the Crater
inventors, and it's been widely reported that the switch threatened to cut
off the electronic spies at the NSA. "There's been this huge shift from
using satellite communications, which is very easy to tap into, to using
both terrestrial and transoceanic fiber-optic cables, and that's presented a
major problem for NSA," says Bamford.
To counter that problem, and keep the electronic intelligence flowing, NSA
has reportedly developed sophisticated techniques
<http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9595_22-529826.html> for wiretapping undersea
cables, relying on specially equipped Navy submarines, the most advanced of
which is the newly recommissioned USS Jimmy Carter, fresh from a $1 billion
upgrade that reportedly includes state-of-the-art technology for tapping
into undersea fiber-optic communications.
French, now 74 and living in Maine, is not a party to the case since his
partners bought out his interest in the invention. But he still has bad
feelings over the affair.
"If it had been war time, World War II, I'd have given it to them. But if
they're hiding behind some friggin' law, basically to screw somebody...."
says French, trailing off.
Lucent spokesman John Skalko says the court's secrecy order prevents him
from addressing the inventors' claims in depth. "We deny any breach of
contract or any misappropriation of trade secrets," says Skalko.
"You can't try this case in your publication, it's only to be tried in a
court of law," Skalko adds -- a prospect that seems increasingly unlikely.
End....

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From: "Jones Beene" <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
To: <jrdickenson gmail.com>, <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
References: <000201c5bdeb$c3e18c30$2a05890a wtwi01ntw012>
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Jim Dickenson writes:
>From Wired.com news which may be of interest.
http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,68894,00.html



Scary. And this is an area of great potential abuse, from 
Governement, from the standpoint of LENR !

Perhaps this ties in with some of the recent posting about 
"official neglect" of CF.

Wouldn't it be a bit more than curious, if in a doubly-punny 
take-off on "The Gods Must be Crazy" (a delightful 25 year-old 
movie).... if the iconic venerated "object," found in the middle 
of Africa, turns out not to be a product of the Coca-Cola Company 
but a Haliburton-branded, very advanced, CF reactor with direct 
electrical conversion, designed for robotic spyplane use? .... 
maybe it got caught in a monsoon over Pakistan, while spying on 
you-know-who, and blown all the way to the Serengeti....

If I only had a good Hollywood agent ....

Jones 

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Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 11:40:14 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: LENR-CANR is UNOFFICIAL
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Mitchell Swartz wrote:

>1.  The issue is not about censorship of papers, but it is about the 
>systematic censorship of ICCF-10 titles by Storms and Rothwell,
>    while purporting they are the "official" ICCF-10 site.

It is just the opposite. Peter Hagelstein asked us to make it clear that 
LENR-CANR is the unofficial site. He asked us to add the following text to 
the heading of every ICCF10 paper:

"This paper was presented at the 10th International Conference on Cold 
Fusion. It may be different from the version published by World Scientific, 
Inc (2003) in the official Proceedings of the conference."

I thought that was a good idea, and I was happy to do it.

(A few of the papers came to me in Acrobat format only and I had difficult 
shoehorning this text into them. That sort of thing is easier to do with 
the newest version of "PDF Converter.")

The "systematic censorship of titles" that Swartz refers to is pure 
moonshine. I cannot tell whether he is lying or paranoid, but I have never 
censored a single title, and it is absurd to think that I would. The 
database include anti-cold fusion propaganda and books, and other stuff 
that I abhor and would never upload. On rare occasions I have refused to 
upload papers for various reasons, mainly because they are off-topic or 
incomprehensible, but there is no reason why I would leave out a title. I 
did remove some of Swartz's titles because a year after the conference I 
had heard nothing from him or from Peter Hagelstein, so I assumed these 
papers were never written. There is no point in listing papers that do not 
exist. Actually, I suspect there are few "phantom" papers in the database, 
and if I find them I will delete them.

Of course it is difficult to confirm that a paper was never published. If 
the author tells me it was published, I take him at his word. It is no big 
deal to have a few phantom items in a list of 3,273 papers. There are 
probably some duplicates as well. The database was created by Dieter Britz 
and Ed Storms, and in general they did a fine job, but mistakes inevitably 
creep into the database as large as this. (It includes the titles, authors, 
co-authors, journal name and so on, and also abstracts and commentary.) I 
winnowed out several mistakes when I first converted the database to the 
online version. I used Pascal programs to make comparisons and look for 
problems that would have been tedious to fix manually.

- Jed


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From: OrionWorks <orionworks charter.net>
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Subject: Re: LENR-CANR is UNOFFICIAL
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Jed Sez:

...

>           I used Pascal programs to make comparisons 
> and look for problems that would have been tedious to
> fix manually.
> 
> - Jed

"Pascal programs?"

How positively 1970'ish of you! ;-)

I presume you know PERL. The language is particularly good at performing text searches and text manipulation.

Just my two cents.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

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BlankOld line by a sceen actress of bygone years. Sure sound like some =
of the posts in Vorts. Patents, due diligence, infighting, official and =
unofficial, levee failure, conspiracies and Mo' de king's English.

To Jones' Hollywood agent.. quick!! copyright everything .. Oliver Stone =
will be calling any minute..

Meanwhile back at the ranch...

Richard


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<DIV>Old line by a sceen actress of bygone years. Sure sound like some =
of the=20
posts in Vorts. Patents, due diligence, infighting, official and =
unofficial,=20
levee failure, conspiracies and Mo' de king's English.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>To Jones' Hollywood agent.. quick!! copyright everything .. Oliver =
Stone=20
will be calling any minute..</DIV>
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<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Richard</DIV>
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From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: LENR-CANR is UNOFFICIAL
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At 11:40 AM 9/20/2005, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>It is just the opposite. Peter Hagelstein asked us to make it clear that 
>LENR-CANR is the unofficial site. He asked us to add the following text to 
>the heading of every ICCF10 paper:
>"This paper was presented at the 10th International Conference on Cold 
>Fusion. It may be different from the version published by World 
>Scientific, Inc (2003) in the official Proceedings of the conference."


   That request was BECAUSE of the CENSORSHIP associated with the 
[misnamed] LENR-CANR web site.
    Glad there has finally been an admission.  [It is misnamed because the 
reactions are actually 'high energy'.]

   ================================================================

>  Rothwell: "I did remove some of Swartz's titles because a year after the 
> conference I had heard nothing from him or from Peter Hagelstein, so I 
> assumed these papers were never written."


Nonsense. This is somewhere between a partial admission and more outright 
disingenuity by Rothwell.

First, the titles of the ICCF-10 papers were removed from the initial list 
of ICCF-10
to accommodate the 'political' leanings of the LENR website editors right 
after the conference.
Many people have e-mailed me that this happened to them, too.

Second, Rothwell was physically handed the papers at Dr. Mallove's funeral.
Rothwell was also present at the presentations at ICCF-10.

====>  In any case, the attempt at such censorship at the LENR site is now 
moot,
since the ICCF-10 Proceedings will be shortly out anyway by the serious 
diligence of Prof. Hagelstein,
whom cold fusioneers should thank for his efforts.








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Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Wesley Bruce wrote:
>
>> I better outline the experiments. The maths and chemistry is error 
>> free but the assumptions are wrong. The assumption of dating is that 
>> the gases argon, lead
>> vapor, radon etc escape from the volcanic lava before it hardens. . . .
>
>
>> In one case they took about 20 samples from a lava flow that flowed 
>> over a road in New Zealand, 1953. These samples are all young. They 
>> were sent to labs world wide and the calculated dates came back as 
>> millions of years old. When the results were published the labs 
>> scrambled to cover up or explain the results.
>
>
> I have to grant, it sounds like someone has uncovered a serious 
> problem with the use of these instruments for these materials.
>
> However, such problems are uncovered all the time in every aspect of 
> chemistry, archaeology and biology. That is called progress. However, 
> finding problems with one technique or one set of data does not mean 
> you have disproved the whole of theoretical basis of modern biology. 
> That would be like saying that because we have discovered cold fusion, 
> we can now dismiss all of the theories and discoveries in plasma fusion.
>
>
>> I just ask you to be as open to the creationists as you ask others to 
>> open to the data on cold fusion.
>
>
> I have been open minded. I can't help it; it's my nature to consider 
> any hypothesis. But I fail to see how creationism can be falsified or 
> tested; every organ that is  supposedly too complicated to evolve 
> obviously did evolve because you find precursors; and biological 
> mechanisms are about as unintelligent as anything could be. If there 
> is a designer he is not intelligent but rather pathologically stupid 
> or just plain malicious. Ask any woman in labor.
>
>
>> No creationist I know of has ever attacked cold fusion.
>
>
> So what? Neither has any member of the Ku Klux Klan, as far as I know.
>
>
>> The creationists have had decades more experience at fighting these 
>> subtle and overt attempts at suppression.
>
>
> They deserve to be suppressed. They would replace science with 
> superstitious malarkey. They would lead us back into the dark ages 
> when people's minds were enslaved by fear, ignorance and illogic. They 
> are as bad as the people who want to replace medicine with faith 
> healing, and democracy with theocracy.
>
> The only problem is that suppressing them usually backfires and 
> encourages public support for them, so I think it is better to ignore 
> such notions as long as we keep them out of the public schools.
>
>
>
>> I think you have good reasons for wanting to prevent Al-Qaeda from 
>> getting cold fusion nuclear subs or something.
>
>
> There is not the slightest chance Al-Qaeda will *make* cold fusion 
> devices, or for that matter, conventional fission bombs. The only 
> danger is that they will steal these things. Al-Qaeda and their ilk 
> are incapable of making any technology. Even though the Al-Qaeda 
> leaders are trained engineers and medical doctors, their followers are 
> ignorant savages mired in a medieval mindset that rejects modernity 
> and all that goes with it. Such people could not make a bicycle, a 
> vaccine or a transistor radio, never mind the airplanes they used 
> against us, or the nuclear bombs they are trying to steal from the 
> Russians. The only way they can hurt us is to use our money -- the 
> money we pay for oil, that is -- to buy or steal our technology. And 
> the only way we can stop them is to cut off the money, and help the 
> Russians secure or dismantle their warheads.
>
> The Chinese are a different story. If they develop cold fusion several 
> years before we do, they will be in a position to develop the weapons 
> are described in my book, in chapter 11. That will make their military 
> utterly invulnerable. They will be able to destroy every American ship 
> and airplane at the touch of a button, with no danger or inconvenience 
> to themselves. In other words, the weapons technology gap will be as 
> large as it was in the other direction in 1842, when a handful of 
> British ships defeated the entire Chinese military and Emperor. The 
> British used their immense power to force the Chinese nation to buy 
> British opium, which addicted and ultimately killed millions of 
> Chinese people. If the Chinese develop cold fusion and we do not, they 
> will be in a position to dictate foreign and domestic policy to every 
> other nation on earth. Let us hope they are more enlightened than the 
> British were in 1842. Frankly, I would not bet on that, knowing the 
> Chinese government and the way it treats vassal states such as Tibet.
>
> - Jed
>
>
We will have to agree to disagree on origins I guess but I think my 
point is valid and will help a little. You now know that creationist do 
do lab work which is probably news to everyone but me. My point is 
confirmed, the reaction to cold fusion is in many people more to do with 
a deeply held beliefs about what is and is not science and what is and 
is not superstition. Our most vocal opponents are not ignoring the data 
they simply can't conceive of the concept that any data worth reading 
exists. The skeptics are in a time warp thinking only of the past data. 
Like wise many think my creationist friends are superstitious flat 
earthers. They aren't most of them have two Ph D's. The point is that 
there are serious problems with dating that have been kept out of the 
news and the text books.  The black ban on cold fusion was not a one off 
case. It was plugged straight into a preexisting editorial  program, 
read black ban, already in place in most of the science media. And 
no-one flinched or complained because they've been selectively banning 
origins papers for over 100 years.


I think I agree with Jed on Al-Qaeda and China. I hope he's right on 
al-Qaeda and I hope we get something better from china. But Jeds 
probably called both accurately. However Al-Qaeda's average operative 
has and engineering or computing degree. Their fairly good at setting up 
world class communications and intelligence networks. Hammas in Gaza is 
becoming fairly good at making rockets but the can't aim the dang things 
accurately.
The military implications of cold fusion are huge but everyone wants to 
worry about CF bomb. A fusion powered tank travel ten times the distance 
it can go today, fighting for days on end,  (no waiting around for the 
gas trucks to catch up), we can expect an age of hit and run, hide and 
seek warfare with tanks! As jed notes in his book a fusion powered 
bomber (with two crew and a bunk) could fly from any where on the planet 
hit a target and head home. Subs will be built and some will be stolen 
by the wrong people. As we move into the Fusion age we must ensure that 
the regulations and regulators are up to speed.

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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: LENR-CANR is UNOFFICIAL
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Mitchell Swartz wrote:

>First, the titles of the ICCF-10 papers were removed from the initial list 
>of ICCF-10
>to accommodate the 'political' leanings of the LENR website editors right 
>after the conference.

If that were true, why would I put the papers back? My politics have not 
changed. Frankly, I could not care less what papers are listed, although I 
am tempted to remove Swartz's papers again just to get his goat.


>Many people have e-mailed me that this happened to them, too.

Who are these people? Give me their names and I will put their papers back 
too. I do not believe these people exist.


>Second, Rothwell was physically handed the papers at Dr. Mallove's funeral.

As I said, I could not read the CD-ROM, and I do not deal with physical 
paper, unless the electronic copies have been lost.


>Rothwell was also present at the presentations at ICCF-10.

I have been to many presentations which were never written up in papers. 
McKubre has often failed to follow his presentation with a paper, which is 
a darn shame.


>====>  In any case, the attempt at such censorship at the LENR site is now 
>moot,
>since the ICCF-10 Proceedings will be shortly out anyway

It was moot months ago, when I added the titles back as soon as Swartz 
asked me to!


>. . . by the serious diligence of Prof. Hagelstein, whom cold fusioneers 
>should thank for his efforts.

And also thanks to the serious diligence by me and the others who edited 
the papers. And the authors of course!

- Jed


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Subject: Yes, CF is dangerous, and so are steam engines and computers
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R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk wrote:

> > The Chinese are a different story. If they develop cold fusion several
> > years before we do, they will be in a position to develop the weapons are
> > described in my book, in chapter 11.
>
>Are you saying that CF could be dangerous?

Absolutely! As I said, if the Chinese develop it intensively for several 
years before we do, and they also develop the kinds of weapons are 
described in chapter 11, that will give them immense power. But this is 
true of nearly any technology. The biggest advantage the British had in 
1842 was the marine steam engine. This was developed for peaceful uses, but 
it was effective in war. British shipborne cannons were also better than 
the Chinese artillery, but I believe the main advantage was the steam engine.

Many civilian devices such as trucks have given nations a decisive 
advantage in war, as I pointed out in the beginning of Chapter 11, quoting 
General Eisenhower. Computers and microprocessors have given weapons 
enormously powerful new capabilities, especially in conventional warfare. 
Computers were first developed for use in war, but nearly all subsequent 
development was in the civilian economy, and most of the microprocessors in 
weapons are no more powerful than the ones in video games.

By the way, China is the only nation that worries me, and only because it 
is presently a Communist dictatorship. If China reforms -- as I hope it 
does -- and becomes a democracy, then it would be fine with me if they 
develop CF ahead of us. If Japan, South Korea, India or the U.K. were to 
gain a decisive advantage in cold fusion that would be OK too, because they 
are stable democracies and I think there is no chance they would go around 
intimidating other nations. Or if they did, it would be no worse than what 
the US does today. If Japan or Korea become the world's number one 
superpower with CF, they deserve to be.


>Do you all risk doing an E. Teller by putting naked ambition before humanity?

Teller advocated the development of the thermonuclear bomb, which has only 
one use, as a weapon of mass destruction. CF, like the truck and the 
computer, can be used as either a sword or a plowshare.

Incidentally, there was a time in the 1950s when Dyson and others were 
working on nuclear bomb powered spacecraft. If these had worked out, and 
they had been environmentally benign, then I suppose it would have given 
the thermonuclear bomb might have had a peaceful, practical use. (I do not 
know whether these ships were supposed to be powered by fission bombs only 
or whether they might also work with small fusion bombs.)


>Ars gratia artis (art for art's sake)? Heard the one about Pandora and her
>box?

Yup. Mankind opened that box hundreds of thousands of years ago, and there 
is no closing it now. We must progress or die. I say ad astra.


Ed Storms agrees with me on this. He wrote:

"Of course CF is dangerous.  Any source of energy is dangerous in the wrong 
hands. In this case, the danger is also economic. . . . Even though the US 
starts to use CF in the future, the country that starts using the method 
will always have an advantage because they will have the technicians and 
professionals who are in a position to stay ahead of everyone else. . . ."

I quibble with this. A technological advantage seldom lasts longer than 30 
to 50 years or so. The British advantage in steam gunboats and battleships 
during the Opium Wars was the most dramatic example in history. The U.S. 
used these Wars to great advantage a few years later when Perry intimidated 
Japan and forced them to open the country. The British used gunboat 
diplomacy again to bombard the Japanese city of Kagoshima in 1863. The 
Japanese, the Chinese and everyone else in Asia knew exactly what had 
happened in the Opium Wars, so they immediately and frantically set to work 
building battleships, better artillery and modern armies. Within a few 
decades they succeeded well enough to prevent another lopsided victory. The 
British attacked China again in 1860, destroying the palaces in Beijing, 
but it was nowhere near as easy.

I think by 1880 or so, the Chinese and the Japanese both managed to develop 
enough military power to prevent another Opium War. Unfortunately, by this 
time the damage was done. British policy had effectively weakened or taken 
over much of China, killing several million people by addicting them to 
opium, and by sucking the lifeblood out of the economy, which caused 
massive famines.

Even if another country gets ahead of you, if you make the effort and begin 
to catch up, this will probably avert a military disaster, or the complete 
subjugation of your nation. Japan did not close the "gunboat gap" 
completely by 1880, but they did avoid being taken over outright by the 
Americans, and colonized. It was a partial takeover. The Americans and 
Europeans imposed extraterritoriality, and they took over control of trade. 
In other words, Americans who committed crimes in Japan could only be tried 
in American courts which were set up in Japan for that purpose, and which 
were lenient. And the Americans and Europeans set up customs, money 
exchanges, and they put themselves in charge of the trade going into and 
out of Japan, which they engineered to their own advantage. But they were 
not able to seize the country, colonize it, or exterminate millions of 
people, the way they did elsewhere in Asia and the Americas.

Needless to say, this high-handed behavior and mass murder engendered a 
great deal of hostility in Asia, which came home to roost on December 7, 
1941, and which is still very much alive today. If you wonder why the 
Chinese seem upset with us, and why they are suspicious of Western 
institutions, you should try to imagine a near future scenario along these 
lines. Referring to Chapter 11 of my book, imagine that the Chinese develop 
small, cheap, autonomous "robot chicken" flyers that are capable of 
crossing the Pacific Ocean. Imagine they manufacture several hundred 
million of these devices over 30 years. They equip each robot with a packet 
of high-quality crack cocaine. The robots go to the US, find people at 
random on the street, and using low level artificial intelligence, offer to 
trade the cocaine for cash, gold, a Rolex watch, a stock certificate, or 
anything else that is small and valuable. The robot carries the money back 
to China and returns with another load of drugs. After a few years millions 
of people are addicted, hundreds of thousands are dying every year, the 
economy is in a shambles, farms and factories have been abandoned, crime 
has reached catastrophic levels, and an unstoppable, unrestricted river of 
cocaine continues to come into the country.


Storms also wrote:

"Of course, the originating country can always drop the ball as the US has 
done on several occasions, but that is a different problem."

I think it is inevitable that any country will drop the ball sooner or 
later. No technological advantage lasts forever. That is a good thing, as 
the above examples illustrate.

- Jed


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>From Mitchell Swartz 

...

> ====>  In any case, the attempt at such censorship at the 
> LENR site is now moot,since the ICCF-10 Proceedings will
> be shortly out anyway by the serious diligence of Prof. 
> Hagelstein,whom cold fusioneers should thank for his efforts.

When the ICC-10 Proceedings are finally published it is my hope that Dr. Swarz will no longer feel censored. 

I look forward to seeing "uncensored" reports by Dr. Swartz published on-line.

However, after reading a recent post from Dr. Swartz to Mr. Rothwell suggesting that Jed use a dictionary and thesaurus for more than just a paperweight I'm inclined to suspect that feeling censored will be the least of Dr. Swartz's issues.

   "It has use beyond that of a paperweight." - Dr. Swartz
   http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l%40eskimo.com/msg08227.html


Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

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Subject: Re: LENR-CANR is UNOFFICIAL
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Jed Rothwell wrote:

> It is just the opposite. Peter Hagelstein asked us to make it clear that
> LENR-CANR is the unofficial site.

This is not evident on lenr-canr home page.

Harry


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Subject: Re: LENR-CANR is UNOFFICIAL
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Harry Veeder wrote:

> > It is just the opposite. Peter Hagelstein asked us to make it clear that
> > LENR-CANR is the unofficial site.
>
>This is not evident on lenr-canr home page.

It is too! As I said, every ICCF-10 paper says:

"This paper was presented at the 10th International Conference on Cold 
Fusion. It may be different from the version published by World Scientific, 
Inc (2003) in the official Proceedings of the conference."

How much more evident can we make it?

Anyway, that's what Hagelstein asked me to write, and that's what I wrote. 
If Swartz has a problem with it, he should talk to Hagelstein, not me.

Furthermore, where do you find any indication on the site that it is 
"official"? We do not say anything like that anywhere. Not a hint of it. We 
have links to all of the official sites that I know of, and we had one to 
ICCF10.org for as long as it remained active.

- Jed


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these are the guys who signed the multimegawatt deal with san diego gas 'n 
electric

http://www.stirlingenergy.com/default.asp

in the gallery section there's a bush inspecting the sandia installation

they have lots of job openings

sterling jobs on stirling engines

-alex

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>From: "Alex Caliostro"

>in the gallery section there's a bush inspecting the sandia installation

bush is in the breaking news photo section

http://www.stirlingenergy.com/breaking_news_photos.htm

why is this (oil) man smiling

has he found a way to meter sunlight

-alex

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At 01:00 PM 9/20/2005, Rothwell wrote:
>Mitchell Swartz wrote:
>>Second, Rothwell was physically handed the papers at Dr. Mallove's funeral.
>
>Rothwell: As I said, I could not read the CD-ROM, and I do not deal with 
>physical paper, unless the electronic copies have been lost.

   First, Rothwell purports that he did not know if a paper was written
but THEN he admits he received it but "could not read the CD-ROM"
and THEN he also admits he also received it in hand but could "not deal 
with physical paper".

   It is OFFICIAL:  Jed Rothwell appears caught in his own net of 
falsehoods again.

    Q.E.D.





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Subject: Re: It ain't fittin, not fittin, it just ain't fittin
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BlankOk then, Richard, how about "retrofittin' "   ??

As in retrofittin' diesels. Are you running any large diesels 24/7 on =
any of your water projects?=20

How would you like to use 30-60% less fuel - as these French folks claim =
they are doing ?
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/quanthommesuite/imagesreal05/fichespadapte.pdf

This is in French, but there are several thousand universal words-worth =
of pictures of same:
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/quanthommesuite/RealPMCPantone.htm

The middle row of pictures based G1-4 are the diesel. The others are for =
smaller conversions. The average seems to be about 50/50 water - for the =
same power, but the actual testing is suspect.

However, given that a 24/7 diesel can burn $50,000 (or far more) worth =
of (untaxed) fuel per year, it might be worthwhile to inquire.

Pantone is having a few legal probelms but is apparently out of the =
pokey now. Anyway most of this material is in the public domain and you =
would be wise to waty away from him.
http://pesn.com/2005/09/19/9600169_Pantone_Legal_Battles/

Joens


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<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"><BASE=20
href=3D"file://E:\Program Files\Common Files\Microsoft =
Shared\Stationery\">
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<BODY id=3DridBody bgColor=3D#ffffff=20
background=3Dcid:003301c5be0f$0ed42c20$6401a8c0 NuDell>
<DIV>Ok then, Richard, how about "retrofittin' "&nbsp;&nbsp; ??</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>As in retrofittin' diesels. Are you running any large diesels 24/7 =
on any=20
of your water projects? </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>How would you like to use 30-60% less fuel - as these French folks =
claim=20
they are doing ?</DIV>
<DIV><A=20
href=3D"http://perso.wanadoo.fr/quanthommesuite/imagesreal05/fichespadapt=
e.pdf">http://perso.wanadoo.fr/quanthommesuite/imagesreal05/fichespadapte=
.pdf</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>This is in French, but there are several thousand universal =
words-worth of=20
pictures of same:</DIV>
<DIV><A=20
href=3D"http://perso.wanadoo.fr/quanthommesuite/RealPMCPantone.htm">http:=
//perso.wanadoo.fr/quanthommesuite/RealPMCPantone.htm</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The middle row of pictures based G1-4 are the diesel. The others =
are for=20
smaller conversions. The average seems to be about 50/50 water =
-&nbsp;for the=20
same power, but the actual testing is suspect.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>However, given that a 24/7 diesel can burn $50,000 (or far more) =
worth of=20
(untaxed) fuel per year, it might be worthwhile to inquire.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Pantone is having a few legal probelms but is apparently out of the =
pokey=20
now. Anyway most of this material is in the public domain and you would =
be wise=20
to waty away from him.</DIV>
<DIV><A=20
href=3D"http://pesn.com/2005/09/19/9600169_Pantone_Legal_Battles/">http:/=
/pesn.com/2005/09/19/9600169_Pantone_Legal_Battles/</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Joens</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 20 11:18:55 2005
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From: Harry Veeder <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: LENR-CANR is UNOFFICIAL
In-reply-to: <6.2.1.2.2.20050920134359.04c4a7b0 pop.mindspring.com>
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Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Harry Veeder wrote:
> 
>>> It is just the opposite. Peter Hagelstein asked us to make it clear that
>>> LENR-CANR is the unofficial site.
>> 
>> This is not evident on lenr-canr home page.
> 
> It is too! As I said, every ICCF-10 paper says:
> 
> "This paper was presented at the 10th International Conference on Cold
> Fusion. It may be different from the version published by World Scientific,
> Inc (2003) in the official Proceedings of the conference."
> 
> How much more evident can we make it?

I was referring to the home page and not to the disclaimers on the papers.

> Anyway, that's what Hagelstein asked me to write, and that's what I wrote.
> If Swartz has a problem with it, he should talk to Hagelstein, not me.
> 
> Furthermore, where do you find any indication on the site that it is
> "official"? We do not say anything like that anywhere. Not a hint of it. We
> have links to all of the official sites that I know of, and we had one to
> ICCF10.org for as long as it remained active.


You ask how much more evident can you make it?
State it explicitly on the home page.


Harry

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From: "Alex Caliostro" <caliostro1795 hotmail.com>
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rumor is that these guys are shipping product

cool pictures

http://www.genesis-scientific.org/energy_apps.htm

what the hell are these things

is this electrolysis or something more exotic

is anyone registered

-alex

_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! 
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Blank
Here are the better pictures.=20

It is a 200 kw turbo diesel retrofit for Egypt -  caterpillar 6 =
cylindres turbo D343-62B=20

The only problem is there are no test figures. All very new and open =
source. The welded box is the reformer.

Where is John Steck?  - he has probably looked into this already on the =
samleer scale.

Jones
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Shared\Stationery\">
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<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Here are the better pictures. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>It is a 200 kw turbo diesel retrofit for Egypt =
-&nbsp;<!--StartFragment -->=20
caterpillar 6 cylindres turbo D343-62B </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The only problem is there are no test figures. All very new and =
open=20
source. The welded box is the reformer.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Where is John Steck? &nbsp;- he has probably looked into this =
already on=20
the samleer scale.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Jones</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw==

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Blankoops hit the wrong key


here is the SPAD picture site:
http://easy.spad.free.fr/0010.htm


  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Jones Beene=20
  To: vortex-l eskimo.com=20
  Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2005 11:20 AM
  Subject: Re: It ain't fittin, not fittin, it just ain't fittin



  Here are the better pictures.=20

  It is a 200 kw turbo diesel retrofit for Egypt -  caterpillar 6 =
cylindres turbo D343-62B=20

  The only problem is there are no test figures. All very new and open =
source. The welded box is the reformer.

  Where is John Steck?  - he has probably looked into this already on =
the samleer scale.

  Jones


  check out the cartoon at
  http://easy.spad.free.fr/index.htm
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<BODY id=3DridBody bgColor=3D#ffffff=20
background=3Dcid:005501c5be10$8c3ba340$6401a8c0 NuDell>
<DIV>oops hit the wrong key</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>here is the SPAD picture site:</DIV>
<DIV><A=20
href=3D"http://easy.spad.free.fr/0010.htm">http://easy.spad.free.fr/0010.=
htm</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3Djonesb9 pacbell.net =
href=3D"mailto:jonesb9 pacbell.net">Jones Beene</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dvortex-l eskimo.com=20
  href=3D"mailto:vortex-l eskimo.com">vortex-l@eskimo.com</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, September 20, =
2005 11:20=20
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: It ain't fittin, =
not fittin,=20
  it just ain't fittin</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Here are the better pictures. </DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>It is a 200 kw turbo diesel retrofit for Egypt =
-&nbsp;<!--StartFragment --> caterpillar 6 cylindres turbo D343-62B =
</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>The only problem is there are no test figures. All very new and =
open=20
  source. The welded box is the reformer.</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Where is John Steck? &nbsp;- he has probably looked into this =
already on=20
  the samleer scale.</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Jones</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>check out the cartoon at</DIV>
  <DIV><A=20
  =
href=3D"http://easy.spad.free.fr/index.htm">http://easy.spad.free.fr/inde=
x.htm</A></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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	name="Blank Bkgrd.gif"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-ID: <005501c5be10$8c3ba340$6401a8c0 NuDell>

R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2
7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW
xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw==

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 20 11:32:23 2005
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: no charge tilly
Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 12:31:18 -0600
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an electric car that does not need charging

http://tinyurl.com/bzcmn

is this guy a crook or what

has anyone heard any results of the private showing last saturday

-alex

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 20 11:34:15 2005
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Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 14:27:19 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: LENR-CANR is UNOFFICIAL
In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050920140613.00ba7408 pop.theworld.com>
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Mitchell Swartz wrote:

>>Rothwell: As I said, I could not read the CD-ROM, and I do not deal with 
>>physical paper, unless the electronic copies have been lost.
>
>   First, Rothwell purports that he did not know if a paper was written . . .

Actually, as I said before, I did not think that was a paper. It looked 
like notes or a PowerPoint presentation. That would be fine, by the way. We 
have several informal PowerPoint presentations on file.

I admit, I was not paying close attention, because this was right after 
Gene's funeral and I had other things on my mind. When I found I could not 
read the CD-ROM, I trashed it. In retrospect, it is a good thing I tossed 
it out because Swartz is now threatening to sue me if I upload any of his 
papers.


>but THEN he admits he received it but "could not read the CD-ROM" . . .\

Yup. Good thing, too.


>and THEN he also admits he also received it in hand but could "not deal 
>with physical paper".

Not "could not" -- will not. I am not going to spend hours recreating an 
electronic file that the author can send me in a few minutes. Swartz is not 
the first to make this demand, by the way. A couple of snooty academic 
professors demanded I work with paper because they "did not have time" to 
e-mail me the original. I told them both to go jump in a lake. Remarkably 
enough, they both found the time to dig up the files and send them.


>It is OFFICIAL:  Jed Rothwell appears caught in his own net of falsehoods 
>again.

These are mere misunderstandings on Swartz's part, and this whole 
discussion is a tempest in a teapot.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 20 11:35:49 2005
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Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 14:34:38 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: sterling jobs in phoenix
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The machine looks a delicate and unwieldy, but the claims are impressive. See:

http://www.stirlingenergy.com/news%5CSES%20Press%20-%20SDGE%20V%203.pdf

"STIRLING ENERGY SYSTEMS SIGNS SECOND LARGE SOLAR
DEAL IN CALIFORNIA
Solar Installation To Produce 300-900 Megawatts
PHOENIX, Sept. 7, 2005 – Stirling Energy Systems (SES)
announced today a contract with San Diego Gas & Electric (SDG&E)
to provide between 300 and 900 megawatts (MW) of solar power . . ."



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 20 11:48:11 2005
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Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 14:46:21 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: LENR-CANR is UNOFFICIAL
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Harry Veeder wrote:

> > How much more evident can we make it?
>
>I was referring to the home page and not to the disclaimers on the papers.

Ah. Well. Most people read the papers and skip the site. Anyway, I do not 
see anything on the site that says it is official.


>You ask how much more evident can you make it?
>State it explicitly on the home page.

State what, exactly? What wording do you propose? Where would you put it?

There are millions of web sites about various subjects, and hundreds of 
thousands about energy. I do not recall seeing a disclaimer on one that 
says it is not an official site, because that is self-evident. Do you see 
any disclaimers on Swartz's site? How about Infinite Energy, or 
http://www.newenergytimes.com/?

When these other sites declare themselves unofficial (unofficially what, I 
do not know) perhaps I will follow suit.

If LENR-CANR said: "The U.S. Department of Energy in cooperation with The 
American Nuclear Society presents LENR-CANR.org . . ." that would certainly 
look official, and it would be deceptive. It might be fun to add a fake 
endorsement supposedly written by Robert Park. ("Authoritative, convincing 
and complete . . .") But I see nothing like that.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 20 11:53:42 2005
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>From: "Jones Beene"

>Pantone is having a few legal probelms but is apparently out of the pokey 
>now. Anyway most of this material is in the public domain and you would be 
>wise to waty away from him.
>http://pesn.com/2005/09/19/9600169_Pantone_Legal_Battles/

jean-louis naudin tested it

http://jlnlabs.imars.com/bingofuel/pmcjlnen.htm

-alex

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 20 11:57:10 2005
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Subject: Re: LENR-CANR is UNOFFICIAL
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At 02:27 PM 9/20/2005, Rothwell wrote:
>>>Rothwell: As I said, I could not read the CD-ROM, and I do not deal with 
>>>physical paper, unless the electronic copies have been lost.
>>   First, Rothwell purports that he did not know if a paper was written
but THEN he admits he received it but "could not read the CD-ROM"
and THEN he also admits he also received it in hand but could "not deal 
with physical paper".
   It is OFFICIAL:  Jed Rothwell appears caught in his own net of 
falsehoods again.
    Q.E.D.


>Rothwell:  Actually, as I said before, I did not think that was a paper. 
>It looked like notes or a PowerPoint presentation. That would be fine, by 
>the way. We have several informal PowerPoint presentations on file.


    Utter BS.  It was a paper. It was printed on an HP printer.
    It did not look like PowerPoint (which I did not have at the time).
    Given that the papers were also MAILED to Storms and Rothwell, it is
outrageous  --but consistent-- that they claim they "knew nothing".


>>It is OFFICIAL:  Jed Rothwell appears caught in his own net of falsehoods 
>>again.


Attention is also directed to the fact that in addition to Rothwell FINALLY 
admitting he had the papers
AND THUS THE TITLES all along, he also had them before and during ICCF-10.

In addition, note that Rothwell has also finally admitted that HE removed 
the titles,
but he remains disingenuous about WHEN he removed the titles.

Furthermore, as pointed out by another on this thread,
Rothwell claims his website states it is not official, but it does not say that
despite that he was directed to have it say that by the ICCF-10 organizers
after he was CAUGHT removing titles of papers which were presented.


Ergo, STRIKE 3:

As stated before, and now proven thrice, it is OFFICIAL:
Jed Rothwell has been (again) caught in his own net of falsehoods.

    Q.E.D. 


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Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 15:10:53 -0500
From: Harry Veeder <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: LENR-CANR is UNOFFICIAL
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Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Harry Veeder wrote:
> 
>>> How much more evident can we make it?
>> 
>> I was referring to the home page and not to the disclaimers on the papers.
> 
> Ah. Well. Most people read the papers and skip the site. Anyway, I do not
> see anything on the site that says it is official.
> 
> 
>> You ask how much more evident can you make it?
>> State it explicitly on the home page.
> 
> State what, exactly? What wording do you propose? Where would you put it?

You could provide links to official sites on the home page, making it clear
that they are official.

 
> There are millions of web sites about various subjects, and hundreds of
> thousands about energy. I do not recall seeing a disclaimer on one that
> says it is not an official site, because that is self-evident. Do you see
> any disclaimers on Swartz's site? How about Infinite Energy, or
> http://www.newenergytimes.com/?

Swartz should consider it as well.

> When these other sites declare themselves unofficial (unofficially what, I
> do not know) perhaps I will follow suit.

 
> If LENR-CANR said: "The U.S. Department of Energy in cooperation with The
> American Nuclear Society presents LENR-CANR.org . . ." that would certainly
> look official, and it would be deceptive. It might be fun to add a fake
> endorsement supposedly written by Robert Park. ("Authoritative, convincing
> and complete . . .") But I see nothing like that.
> 

Another possibility is to start a new official web site with a new name.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 20 12:14:22 2005
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Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 15:13:19 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: LENR-CANR is UNOFFICIAL -- and so it says, Matey,
  arrrrgggg!
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Harry Veeder wrote:

>You ask how much more evident can you make it?
>State it explicitly on the home page.

Ah ha. I already did that. It says:

"ICCF-10 Proceedings. Tenth International Conference on Cold Fusion 
(ICCF-10) was held in Cambridge, Massachusetts 24 - 29 August 2003. This 
section includes the informal, on-line edition of the conference proceedings."

I think anyone (other than Swartz) would agree that "informal, on-line" 
implies "unofficial." I also think that if I start saying "unofficial this" 
and "disclaimer that" people are going to get suspicious that I am somehow 
selling a bill of goods. It would be protesting too much about a non-issue.

Anyway, Swartz is the one who is making inaccurate claims. He says his page is:

"Your Most Complete, Uncensored, Cold Fusion Resource"

What does he mean "your . . . site"? Mine? If it is mine, he should start 
doing as I say, and he should give me the password so I can replace his 
text with naughty pictures. And how can he say it is "complete" and 
"uncensored" when he refuses to upload his own papers?!?

It is NOT mine, and Swartz is caught in his own net of falsehoods again. 
Q.E.D. And P.D.Q. And also I.T.L.A.P.D. Hi, ho, Matey! Avast, and shiver me 
timbers. How's that fer splittin' hairs and deliberately misreadin' the 
Queen's English? Arrrrrr!!!

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 20 12:16:40 2005
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Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 13:15:48 -0600
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September 14, 2005
Toyota Says It Plans Eventually to Offer an All-Hybrid Fleet
By BLOOMBERG NEWS
FRANKFURT, Sept. 13 (Bloomberg News) - The Toyota Motor Corporation said 
this week that all its vehicles would eventually be run by hybrid 
gasoline-electric motors, as record fuel prices curb demand for conventional 
automobiles.

"In the future, the cars you see from Toyota will be 100 percent hybrid," 
Kazuo Okamoto, executive vice president, told reporters in Frankfurt Monday, 
without giving a specific timetable.

Toyota, Japan's biggest carmaker and second to General Motors worldwide, is 
aiming to make as many as 400,000 gasoline-electric vehicles in 2006, 
including Prius cars, Camry sedans, Highlander sport utility vehicles and 
Coaster buses, Katsuaki Watanabe, president of Toyota, said at an investor 
conference in New York Monday. That would be 60 percent more than 2005's 
objective, he added.

Toyota has sold 425,000 gasoline-electric cars since 1997 and is trying to 
profit from its lead over General Motors and Ford Motor. Mr. Watanabe said 
he aimed to cut production costs and halve the $5,000 price premium on such 
vehicles, without giving details.

"Toyota has been the leader of the pack in environmental technology, and 
they will probably continue to be," said Norihito Kanai, an analyst at Meiji 
Dresdner Asset Management in Tokyo. "Many of its rivals were at first not so 
aggressive in hybrids, but now we see everyone joining."

Hybrid vehicles combine a gasoline engine with a battery pack that is 
recharged through braking. Electricity powers the vehicle at low speeds, 
enabling the Prius to go up to 55 miles on a gallon of gasoline, double the 
mileage of an automobile that runs on a conventional engine.

A Prius hybrid carries a sticker price of $20,875 in California. The cost of 
those components makes hybrids $3,000 to $5,000 more expensive than 
gasoline-engine autos, according to automakers and analysts.

Mr. Watanabe told investors he could not give a time frame for halving the 
price premium. Nihon Keizai reported on its Web site Tuesday that he gave a 
target of 2010.

Fujio Cho, Mr. Watanabe's predecessor, previously set a goal of selling 
300,000 hybrids annually worldwide by the end of 2005, and last year he 
pushed back the date to 2006. Jim Press, Toyota's United States sales chief, 
said a shortage of batteries and other parts would probably hold back 
production. The company is planning to sell 240,000 to 250,000 hybrids this 
year and a million a year by 2010.

"We believe that in 10 years the world will be filled with hybrids," Mr. 
Okamoto said.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/14/automobiles/14toyota.html

_________________________________________________________________
FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now! 
http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 20 12:33:22 2005
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Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 15:31:23 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: LENR-CANR is UNOFFICIAL, and Swartz is back in the
  kill-file
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Mitchell Swartz wrote:

>In addition, note that Rothwell has also finally admitted that HE removed 
>the titles,
>but he remains disingenuous about WHEN he removed the titles.

Yo: Mitch. Where does "admit" come from? It is my web site. Who else could 
have removed the titles? And who put them back as soon as you asked? Let us 
get something straight there. I do not answer to you, and I do no respond 
well to pressure or threats. I will remove any title, any time I feel like 
it, for any reason or for no reason. It is not disingenuous and it is none 
of your damn business.

You, of all people, should not spout off about the ethics of running a web 
site. You have plagiarized my papers many times. In your last issue you 
copied Coviello and Krivit in one place, and Storms and I in another, both 
without attribution or permission.

I have had ENOUGH of your nonsense, so I will put you back in my 
auto-delete list, where I should have left you all along. If you wish to 
communicate I suggest you send a snail-mail to:

Jed Rothwell
1954 Airport Rd Ste 204
Chamblee, GA  30341-4953

Q.E.D.U.Y.A.


To other readers: sorry about this interlude . . . but perhaps you found it 
amusing? You see why so many CF researchers get nowhere. They are, as I 
have often said, their own worst enemies.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 20 12:38:51 2005
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From: Harry Veeder <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: LENR-CANR is UNOFFICIAL
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Rothwell and Swartz might consider combining forces to launch a new web site
with an official status.


Harry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 20 12:39:22 2005
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Subject: Re: LENR-CANR is UNOFFICIAL
Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 14:38:26 -0500
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Swartz sez:

...

> Ergo, STRIKE 3:
> 
> As stated before, and now proven thrice, it is OFFICIAL:
> Jed Rothwell has been (again) caught in his own net of
> falsehoods.
> 
>     Q.E.D. 

Ah, the OFFICIAL three strikes yer out ploy!

I'm curious, Dr. Swartz.

If you succeed in your efforts to OFFICIALLY catch Jed in a net of his own falsehoods what do you plan on doing next?

I'm in the middle of planning my OFFICIAL entertainment schedule for the next week. Does anybody know if Donald Trump is airing any more "Youre fired!" reality shows?

OFFICIAL Regards,

Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 20 12:48:55 2005
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Subject: Re: It ain't fittin, not fittin, it just ain't fittin
Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 14:47:46 -0500
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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BlankJones,=20
Thanks for the link. The last diesel pump station project, we provided =
the control system and switchgear was Texas City, Texas back in 1982, =
two storm water pump stations, each station using six each Cat V-8 =
diesel powered archimedes screw type lift pumps. The stations are =
designed to lift water from behind the levee and spill it  into canals =
exiting into Galveston Bay. Parts of Texas City are below sealevel like =
New Orleans. New Orleans placed their pumps behind the levee at below =
sealevel making it easy to wire to the adjacent incoming electric power =
, Texas City places theirs on top of the levee along with the electrical =
and standby power. Most engineers learn by trial and error that water =
flows downhill.

These huge screws can move water, as discovered by a couple of fishermen =
in a small boat immediately downstream of the discharge. They couldn't =
miss the warning signs posted along the channel advising them to weigh =
anchor and leave when they heard the station siren go off. Some ole =
Texas boys just have to learn to swim the hard way. When we started all =
six units ,the level in the channel immediately rose 5 feet. Too bad =
they didn't have a surfboard to catch the wave.

We use some auxiliary power systems when it is a part of our systems =
package of controls and switchgear but we work that through Mustang =
Power ( Cat) or Stewart and Stevenson ( GM) of Houston.

So far, we haven't been able to run an engine or anything on water or a =
mix thereof except for a darn good still back in the woods I am not at =
liberty to discuss.

Richard
  ---- Original Message -----=20
  From: Jones Beene=20
  To: vortex-l eskimo.com=20
  Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2005 1:24 PM
  Subject: Re: It ain't fittin, not fittin, it just ain't fittin


  oops hit the wrong key


  here is the SPAD picture site:
  http://easy.spad.free.fr/0010.htm


    ----- Original Message -----=20
    From: Jones Beene=20
    To: vortex-l eskimo.com=20
    Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2005 11:20 AM
    Subject: Re: It ain't fittin, not fittin, it just ain't fittin



    Here are the better pictures.=20

    It is a 200 kw turbo diesel retrofit for Egypt -  caterpillar 6 =
cylindres turbo D343-62B=20

    The only problem is there are no test figures. All very new and open =
source. The welded box is the reformer.

    Where is John Steck?  - he has probably looked into this already on =
the samleer scale.

    Jones


    check out the cartoon at
    http://easy.spad.free.fr/index.htm
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD><TITLE id=3DridTitle>Blank</TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"><BASE=20
href=3D"file://E:\Program Files\Common Files\Microsoft =
Shared\Stationery\">
<STYLE>BODY {
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<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana>Jones, </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana>Thanks for the link.&nbsp;The last diesel pump =
station=20
project, we provided the control system and switchgear was&nbsp;Texas =
City,=20
Texas back in 1982, two storm water pump stations, each station using =
six each=20
Cat V-8 diesel powered archimedes screw type lift pumps. The stations =
are=20
designed to lift water from behind the levee and spill it&nbsp; into =
canals=20
exiting into Galveston Bay. Parts of Texas City are below sealevel like =
New=20
Orleans. New Orleans placed their pumps behind the levee at&nbsp;below =
sealevel=20
making it easy to wire to the adjacent incoming electric power&nbsp;, =
Texas City=20
places theirs on top of the levee along with the electrical and standby =
power.=20
Most engineers learn by trial and error that water flows =
downhill.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana>These huge screws can move water, as =
discovered by a=20
couple of fishermen in a small boat immediately downstream of the =
discharge.=20
They couldn't miss the warning signs posted along the channel advising =
them to=20
weigh anchor and leave when they heard the station siren go off. Some =
ole Texas=20
boys just have to learn to swim the hard way. When we started all six =
units ,the=20
level in the channel immediately rose 5 feet. Too bad they didn't have a =

surfboard to catch the wave.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana>We&nbsp;use some auxiliary power systems when =
it is a=20
part of our systems package of controls and switchgear but we =
work&nbsp;that=20
through Mustang Power ( Cat) or Stewart and Stevenson ( GM) of=20
Houston.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana>So far, we haven't been able to run an engine =
or=20
anything on water or a mix thereof except for a darn good still back in =
the=20
woods I am not at liberty to discuss.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana>Richard</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">---- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3Djonesb9 pacbell.net =
href=3D"mailto:jonesb9 pacbell.net">Jones Beene</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dvortex-l eskimo.com=20
  href=3D"mailto:vortex-l eskimo.com">vortex-l@eskimo.com</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, September 20, =
2005 1:24=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: It ain't fittin, =
not fittin,=20
  it just ain't fittin</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV>oops hit the wrong key</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>here is the SPAD picture site:</DIV>
  <DIV><A=20
  =
href=3D"http://easy.spad.free.fr/0010.htm">http://easy.spad.free.fr/0010.=
htm</A></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
  style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
    <DIV=20
    style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
    <A title=3Djonesb9 pacbell.net =
href=3D"mailto:jonesb9 pacbell.net">Jones=20
    Beene</A> </DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dvortex-l eskimo.com=20
    href=3D"mailto:vortex-l eskimo.com">vortex-l@eskimo.com</A> </DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, September 20, =
2005 11:20=20
    AM</DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: It ain't fittin, =
not=20
    fittin, it just ain't fittin</DIV>
    <DIV><BR></DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>Here are the better pictures. </DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>It is a 200 kw turbo diesel retrofit for Egypt =
-&nbsp;<!--StartFragment --> caterpillar 6 cylindres turbo D343-62B =
</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>The only problem is there are no test figures. All very new and =
open=20
    source. The welded box is the reformer.</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>Where is John Steck? &nbsp;- he has probably looked into this =
already=20
    on the samleer scale.</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>Jones</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>check out the cartoon at</DIV>
    <DIV><A=20
    =
href=3D"http://easy.spad.free.fr/index.htm">http://easy.spad.free.fr/inde=
x.htm</A></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C5BDF2.43DADF80--

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Content-Type: image/gif;
	name="Blank Bkgrd.gif"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-ID: <000d01c5be1c$2c891430$44037841 xptower>

R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2
7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW
xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw==

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 20 12:50:08 2005
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From: "Alex Caliostro" <caliostro1795 hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: LENR-CANR is UNOFFICIAL
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>From: OrionWorks

>I'm in the middle of planning my OFFICIAL entertainment schedule for the 
>next week. Does anybody know if Donald Trump is airing any more "Youre 
>fired!" reality shows?

no, but con mot stewart is

http://www.nbc.com/The_Apprentice:_Martha_Stewart/

-alex

_________________________________________________________________
Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee® 
Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963

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Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 15:45:00 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: LENR-CANR is UNOFFICIAL
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Harry Veeder wrote:

> > State what, exactly? What wording do you propose? Where would you put it?
>
>You could provide links to official sites on the home page, making it clear
>that they are official.

I do have links. See: http://lenr-canr.org/News.htm#Links it looks pretty 
obvious to me what is official and what is not.


>Another possibility is to start a new official web site with a new name.

No thanks. Not me. I pay $25 per month already. Besides, what constitutes 
being "official" anyway? Take these two:

International Society for Condensed Matter Nuclear Science, 
<http://www.iscmns.org/index.htm>http://www.iscmns.org/index.htm

Japan CF Research Society (English web 
page) 
<http://wwwcf.elc.iwate-u.ac.jp/jcf/indexe.html>http://wwwcf.elc.iwate-u.ac.jp/jcf/indexe.html

They sound pretty official, don't it? Yet both of these organizations are 
about as official as a Chowder and Marching Society, or Friday night 
floating poker game. And the APS is official, but what good does it do them?

Frankly, being official is overrated.

- Jed

--=====================_18661171==.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
<body>
Harry Veeder wrote:<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">&gt; State what, exactly? What
wording do you propose? Where would you put it?<br><br>
You could provide links to official sites on the home page, making it
clear<br>
that they are official.</blockquote><br>
I do have links. See:
<a href="http://lenr-canr.org/News.htm#Links" eudora="autourl">
http://lenr-canr.org/News.htm#Links</a> it looks pretty obvious to me
what is official and what is not.<br><br>
<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">Another possibility is to start
a new official web site with a new name.</blockquote><br>
No thanks. Not me. I pay $25 per month already. Besides, what constitutes
being &quot;official&quot; anyway? Take these two:<br><br>
International Society for Condensed Matter Nuclear Science,
<a href="http://www.iscmns.org/index.htm">
http://www.iscmns.org/index.htm</a><br><br>
Japan CF Research Society (English web page)&nbsp;
<a href="http://wwwcf.elc.iwate-u.ac.jp/jcf/indexe.html">
http://wwwcf.elc.iwate-u.ac.jp/jcf/indexe.html</a><br><br>
They sound pretty official, don't it? Yet both of these organizations are
about as official as a Chowder and Marching Society, or Friday night
floating poker game. And the APS is official, but what good does it do
them?<br><br>
Frankly, being official is overrated.<br><br>
- Jed<br>
</body>
</html>

--=====================_18661171==.ALT--


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 20 12:55:05 2005
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From: OrionWorks <orionworks charter.net>
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To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Veeder Sez:

> Rothwell and Swartz might consider combining forces to launch 
> a new web site with an official status.
> 
> Harry

I suspect a combination of these two forces is likely to initiate nuclear FISSION, not FUSION. Probably a lot messier than its worth.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

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dennis cravens has a couple of demonstration projects which should get even 
cf skeptics attention

http://www.netmdc.com/~physics/

-alex

_________________________________________________________________
Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! 
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/

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At 03:31 PM 9/20/2005, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>Mitchell Swartz wrote:
>>In addition, note that Rothwell has also finally admitted that HE removed 
>>the titles,
>>but he remains disingenuous about WHEN he removed the titles.
>
>Rothwell:  Yo: Mitch. Where does "admit" come from? It is my web site. Who 
>else could have removed the titles? And who put them back as soon as you 
>asked? Let us get something straight there.....


   Rothwell finally admitted several things after many years of denial.
   Methinks he protests too much.

   =====================================

>Rothwell:  You, of all people, should not spout off about the ethics of 
>running a web site. You have plagiarized my papers many times. In your 
>last issue you copied Coviello and Krivit in one place, and Storms and I 
>in another, both without attribution or permission.

   What utter nonsense.
  When we print, or discuss, excerpts from the web (publicly posted) we 
cite source (and often the URL).
  And we list the author.  To take excerpts from public sites on the Internet
and then attribute authorship, origin, and URL is NOT plagiarism.
But then using a dictionary is NOT, and has NEVER BEEN, Mr. Rothwell's 
strong point.

   Despite Rothwell's BS, we have meticulously cited sites, URLS, and the 
author, including Rothwell's in each case.
If Rothwell really knows of one we missed, he should let us know and that 
will be corrected,
unlike the chronic failure to correct things which so characterizes Mr. 
Rothwell and his company.



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At 03:38 PM 9/20/2005, Steven Vincent Johnson wrote:
>I'm curious, Dr. Swartz.
>If you succeed in your efforts to OFFICIALLY catch Jed in a net of his own 
>falsehoods what do you plan on doing next?


   Going back to cold fusion science and research.  That is HOW this began.

   Jed's entrapment is -- and has been -- of no interest to me.

This began from Ed Storms and Jed Rothwell's pejorative posts after
I posted some cold fusion data and information,
posted a correction to Jed's disputing Bill Beaty's reasonable suggestion 
of what is 'practical',
and finally I dared to post a correction to Jed's "definition" of 'company' 
and 'practical'.

No good deed goes unpunished, it seems.




>I'm in the middle of planning my OFFICIAL entertainment schedule for the 
>next week. Does anybody know if Donald Trump is airing any more "Youre 
>fired!" reality shows?
>
>OFFICIAL Regards,
>
>Steven Vincent Johnson
>www.OrionWorks.com


Heard he was, but the several new sci-fi series might be as interesting.

     Best wishes.



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 20 13:16:34 2005
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Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 16:14:38 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: toyota going total hybrid
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Excellent news. Let us hope they quickly extend that to plug-in hybrids. 
But they do not give a timetable. And we should remember that although over 
200,000 hybrid cars will be sold in the U.S. this year, total automobile 
sales are ~17 million

J. D. Power-LMC predicts that hybrid sales will reach 3% of the U.S. market 
by 2010. (http://www.jdpower.com/news/releases/pressrelease.asp?ID=2005013) 
This will have no effect on the environment or global warming. There will 
only be significant progress in the US if government, consumers and 
manufacturers make a commitment to rapid, fundamental, radical changes.

There is no question that the industry can change quickly. In the 1960s 
automobile safety was increased by a huge measure with the introduction of 
hundreds of new safety regulations. (Before then there were virtually no 
safety regulations.) In the 1970s they doubled efficiency, and reduced 
pollution by a factor of 20. With strong leadership, we could catch up to 
the Japanese and the Italians within five or 10 years. New automobiles in 
Japan now get about 40 mpg average. If ours did that we would not be 
importing oil.

Hybrid cars seem to be more common in Japan than in the US. At least, you 
see more different models in the showroom and streets, including vans and 
things. When hybrid sales increase, the average mpg should rise to around 
50 or 60. Once plug-in hybrids become common, Japan will reduce oil imports 
to negligible levels. It is already on a path to doing this.

Most Japanese electricity comes from hydroelectricity or nuclear power, and 
nuclear power is being increased, so this will reduce CO2 emissions. They 
plan to generate  about 10% of electricity (or 100 GW) with roof-based 
solar PV by 2030. See:

http://www.earthscan.co.uk/news/article.asp?UAN=350&SP=332775698126342377300&v=3

I think 100 GW should be enough to meet the increased demand from plug-in 
hybrids. As I have pointed out here previously, converting the entire 
automobile fleet to electricity would take much less energy than you would 
think, and a far smaller fraction of total energy than today's automobile 
fleet consumes.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 20 13:41:12 2005
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From: Harry Veeder <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: LENR-CANR is UNOFFICIAL
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> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

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Ok Jed, 
you have officially convinced me.

Harry

Jed Rothwell wrote:

Harry Veeder wrote:

> State what, exactly? What wording do you propose? Where would you put it?

You could provide links to official sites on the home page, making it clear
that they are official.

I do have links. See: http://lenr-canr.org/News.htm#Links it looks pretty
obvious to me what is official and what is not.


Another possibility is to start a new official web site with a new name.

No thanks. Not me. I pay $25 per month already. Besides, what constitutes
being "official" anyway? Take these two:

International Society for Condensed Matter Nuclear Science,
http://www.iscmns.org/index.htm

Japan CF Research Society (English web page)
http://wwwcf.elc.iwate-u.ac.jp/jcf/indexe.html

They sound pretty official, don't it? Yet both of these organizations are
about as official as a Chowder and Marching Society, or Friday night
floating poker game. And the APS is official, but what good does it do them?

Frankly, being official is overrated.

- Jed




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<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Re: LENR-CANR is UNOFFICIAL</TITLE>
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<BODY>
Ok Jed, <BR>
you have officially convinced me.<BR>
<BR>
Harry<BR>
<BR>
Jed Rothwell wrote:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE>Harry Veeder wrote:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE>&gt; State what, exactly? What wording do you propose? Where would you put it?<BR>
<BR>
You could provide links to official sites on the home page, making it clear<BR>
that they are official.<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
I do have links. See: http://lenr-canr.org/News.htm#Links it looks pretty obvious to me what is official and what is not.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE>Another possibility is to start a new official web site with a new name.<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
No thanks. Not me. I pay $25 per month already. Besides, what constitutes being &quot;official&quot; anyway? Take these two:<BR>
<BR>
International Society for Condensed Matter Nuclear Science, http://www.iscmns.org/index.htm<BR>
<BR>
Japan CF Research Society (English web page) http://wwwcf.elc.iwate-u.ac.jp/jcf/indexe.html<BR>
<BR>
They sound pretty official, don't it? Yet both of these organizations are about as official as a Chowder and Marching Society, or Friday night floating poker game. And the APS is official, but what good does it do them?<BR>
<BR>
Frankly, being official is overrated.<BR>
<BR>
- Jed<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</BODY>
</HTML>


--Boundary_(ID_rgQtdWmbokwD0j6iLiHf4A)--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 20 14:17:59 2005
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From: OrionWorks <orionworks charter.net>
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Subject: Battery capacity for electric autos, practical concerns
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The following scenario focuses on all-electric cars, not hybrids. I'm making the assumption that eventually hybrid-cars will be completely replaced with 100% electrical systems.

I seem to recall Mike Carrell once cautioning the Vort readership of the fact that there is a practical limit as to how fast batteries can be recharged. Pushing too much juice within a finite amount of time could cause our auto batteries to vaporize.

Granted, plugging an electric in at night for the slow charge is the best solution for preventing the dreaded UBVs - Unwanted Battery Vaporization. However, when one is driving long distance one will eventually be forced to recharge out on the HiWay. Complete 100% recharging needs to be completed within a minimum amount of time, say 15 minutes maximum. That's just about enough time for me to stretch my legs, clean the dead bugs from my windshield, empty my bladder, and pay the cashier for the electricity I purchased.

Recently I purchased an impressive new brand of rechargeable batteries (AAs) that charge to 100% capacity within 15 minutes. I bet many Vorts have already seen these marvels sold at stores like Battery Plus. The accompanying 15 minute charger is an impressive unit as well. It includes an air cooled fan that keeps the device from over heating. You can definitely hear the fan whining away when it's charging batteries. It makes an impressive amount of noise for its tiny size. You can feel plenty of heat exiting the charger's exhaust vents too.

I understand new developments in battery technology will soon reduce the recharging time to five minutes or less. I can only assume that the new five minute chargers will come with an accompanying bigger fan and heat sinks!

I'm curious, just how much juice (throughput: amperage and voltage) are we talking about that would have to flow through an electrical cable in order to recharge battery storage sufficient to run a family sized car another 200 - 300 miles? How thick and cumbersome would the electrical cable have to be designed? How would we handle grounding? How about recharging on rainy days?

I'm also curious as to how efficient the recharging process itself is. How much energy is simply lost as unrecoverable heat?

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 20 14:41:42 2005
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It's too bad that the Vanadium Redox battery doesn't have a higher
charge density.  You could just replace the electrolyte and move along.

The metal- air batteries visualized getting a new metal slurry and
dumping the hydroxide.  

-----Original Message-----
From: OrionWorks [mailto:orionworks charter.net] 
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2005 5:17 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Cc: orionworks charter.net
Subject: Battery capacity for electric autos, practical concerns

The following scenario focuses on all-electric cars, not hybrids. I'm
making the assumption that eventually hybrid-cars will be completely
replaced with 100% electrical systems.

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I, like Jed, have had enough of Dr. Mitchell's Swartz's tone and have =
put him on ignore because there is already enough negativity in this =
world, but I had to respond to his slick dismal to my plagiarism charge. =
=20

Contrary to his statements, he did not lift the story he printed in Cold =
Fusion Times this summer from public Internet postings I made about the =
event.  Even if he did, it is highly unprofessional to, in that case, =
write a story based on someone else's Internet postings and then =
attribute the article to that person, without ever running the article =
by the "author" for content or permission to print the story "as is".  =
In that case, he would be hijacking my good name and printing something =
in my name without my permission.  But, he didn't do that.  He will not =
be able to produce public Internet postings that even closely compare to =
the story I wrote for New Energy Times (NET), which had a lot of input =
from Steve Krivit, which he apparently subsequently copied verbatim for =
Cold Fusion Times without asking for permission from myself (the author) =
or Steve Krivit (the owner of the article from NET) or giving proper =
credit the article's owner New Energy Times.  On top of it all, Dr. =
Swartz neglected to follow the most basic etiquette in the writing field =
of sending the author a complimentary copy of the issue, even if that =
author was never asked for permission to use his article or name in the =
first place, as in this case.

See For Yourself -- The story as it appeared in NET about a month before =
it was published in Cold Fusion Times

Report of the 2005 Cold Fusion Colloquium at Massachusetts Institute of =
Technology=20
By John Coviello
=20
The 2005 Cold Fusion Colloquium took place at Massachusetts Institute of =
Technology in Cambridge, Mass., May 21. =20
=20
The colloquium was dedicated to the memory of Dr. Eugene Mallove, MIT =
class of 1969. Mallove, who died tragically in May 2004, was perhaps =
cold fusion's most persistent supporter during the field's darkest =
years, after the original Fleischmann and Pons announcement in March =
1989. The MIT entrepreneurs club hosted the colloquium, the fourth cold =
fusion event at the MIT campus since 1989.=20
=20
The speakers at this colloquium were serious scientists. Despite what =
many skeptics believe, this was not an amateur science conference. The =
participants were degreed scientists, with long and distinguished =
science careers in government, private industry and academia. Attendees =
were treated to a respectful, scientific day of accurate, =
state-of-the-art presentations on this confusing and exciting new field.

<continued>  http://www.newenergytimes.com/news/NET11.htm#MIT


The story as it appeared in Cold Fusion Times a month later without =
permission or proper credit (notice how utterly similar it is to the =
story above, same verbiage with some things cut out, an obvious cut and =
paste job):

Cold Fusion Colloquium at MIT
By John Coviello
=20
The 2005 Cold Fusion Colloquium was dedicated to the memory of Dr. =
Eugene Mallove, MIT class of 1969. Mallove, who died tragically in May =
2004, who was perhaps cold fusion's most persistent supporter during the =
field's darkest years, after the original Fleischmann and Pons =
announcement in March 1989.  The speakers at this colloquium were =
serious scientists. Despite what many skeptics believe, this was not an =
amateur science conference. The participants were degreed scientists, =
with long and distinguished science careers in government, private =
industry and academia. Attendees were treated to a respectful, =
scientific day of accurate, state-of-the-art presentations on this =
confusing and exciting new field.

<continued> http://world.std.com/~mica/cftrev12-2.html

See for yourself, but if this isn't plagiarism, it's damn close.  He =
certainly can't produce a public Internet posting that said anything =
about the MIT colloquium in this manner, because some of the verbiage =
was from contributors at NET such as Krivit and was only released in the =
NET version.

This is the last I will say about this most unprofessional incident of =
what I perceive as plagiarism and a lack of professionalism when dealing =
with other people's work.  But, I had to set the record straight.

John Coviello






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<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I, like Jed, have had enough of Dr. =
Mitchell's=20
Swartz's tone and have put him on ignore because there is already enough =

negativity in this world, but I had to respond to his slick dismal to my =

plagiarism charge.&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Contrary to his statements, he did not =
lift the=20
story he printed in Cold Fusion Times this summer from public Internet =
postings=20
I made about the event.&nbsp; Even if he did, it is highly =
unprofessional to, in=20
that case, write a story based on someone else's Internet postings and =
then=20
attribute the article&nbsp;to that person, without ever running the =
article by=20
the "author"&nbsp;for content or permission to print the story "as =
is".&nbsp; In=20
that case, he would be hijacking my good name and printing something in =
my name=20
without my permission.&nbsp; </FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>But, he =
didn't do=20
that.&nbsp; He will not&nbsp;be able to produce&nbsp;public Internet =
postings=20
that even closely compare to the story I wrote for New Energy Times =
(NET), which=20
had a lot of input from Steve Krivit, which he apparently subsequently =
copied=20
verbatim for Cold Fusion Times without asking for permission from myself =
(the=20
author) or Steve Krivit (the owner of the article from NET) or giving =
proper=20
credit the article's owner New Energy Times.&nbsp; On top of it all, Dr. =
Swartz=20
neglected to follow the most basic etiquette in the writing field of =
sending the=20
author a complimentary copy of the issue, even if that author was never =
asked=20
for permission to use his article or name in the first place, as in this =

case.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>See For Yourself -- The story as it =
appeared in NET=20
about a month before it was published in Cold Fusion Times</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=3D#003399 size=3D5>Report of the 2005 Cold =
Fusion=20
Colloquium at Massachusetts Institute of Technology =
<BR></FONT></STRONG>By John=20
Coviello<BR>&nbsp;<BR>The 2005 Cold Fusion Colloquium took place at=20
Massachusetts Institute of Technology in Cambridge, Mass., May 21.&nbsp; =

<BR>&nbsp;<BR>The colloquium was dedicated to the memory of Dr. Eugene =
Mallove,=20
MIT class of 1969. Mallove, who died tragically in May 2004, was perhaps =
cold=20
fusion's most persistent supporter during the field's darkest years, =
after the=20
original Fleischmann and Pons announcement in March 1989. The MIT =
entrepreneurs=20
club hosted the colloquium, the fourth cold fusion event at the MIT =
campus since=20
1989. <BR>&nbsp;<BR>The speakers at this colloquium were serious =
scientists.=20
Despite what many skeptics believe, this was not an amateur science =
conference.=20
The participants were degreed scientists, with long and distinguished =
science=20
careers in government, private industry and academia. Attendees were =
treated to=20
a respectful, scientific day of accurate, state-of-the-art presentations =
on this=20
confusing and exciting new field.</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&lt;continued&gt;&nbsp; <A=20
href=3D"http://www.newenergytimes.com/news/NET11.htm#MIT">http://www.newe=
nergytimes.com/news/NET11.htm#MIT</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The story as it appeared in Cold Fusion =
Times a=20
month later without permission or proper credit (notice how utterly =
similar it=20
is to the story above, same verbiage with some things cut out, an =
obvious cut=20
and paste job):</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=3D#003399 size=3D5>Cold Fusion Colloquium at=20
MIT<BR></FONT></STRONG>By John Coviello<BR>&nbsp;<BR>The 2005 Cold =
Fusion=20
Colloquium&nbsp;was dedicated to the memory of Dr. Eugene Mallove, MIT =
class of=20
1969. Mallove, who died tragically in May 2004, who was perhaps cold =
fusion's=20
most persistent supporter during the field's darkest years, after the =
original=20
Fleischmann and Pons announcement in March 1989.&nbsp; The speakers at =
this=20
colloquium were serious scientists. Despite what many skeptics believe, =
this was=20
not an amateur science conference. The participants were degreed =
scientists,=20
with long and distinguished science careers in government, private =
industry and=20
academia. Attendees were treated to a respectful, scientific day of =
accurate,=20
state-of-the-art presentations on this confusing and exciting new =
field.</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&lt;continued&gt; <A=20
href=3D"http://world.std.com/~mica/cftrev12-2.html">http://world.std.com/=
~mica/cftrev12-2.html</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>See for yourself, but if this isn't =
plagiarism,=20
it's damn close.&nbsp; He certainly can't produce a public Internet =
posting that=20
said&nbsp;anything about the MIT colloquium&nbsp;in this manner, because =
some of=20
the verbiage was from contributors at NET such as Krivit and was only =
released=20
in the NET version.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>This is the last I will say about this =
most=20
unprofessional incident of what I perceive as plagiarism and a lack of=20
professionalism when dealing with other people's work.&nbsp; But, I had =
to set=20
the record straight.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>John Coviello</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0861_01C5BE11.D4A323F0--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 20 15:50:37 2005
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Subject: Re: no charge tilly
Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 18:46:39 -0400
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Carefully with Carl Tilley.  He has a dubious past.  See this for background 
info: http://www.greaterthings.com/News/Tilley/fraud/index.html

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Alex Caliostro" <caliostro1795 hotmail.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2005 2:31 PM
Subject: no charge tilly


> an electric car that does not need charging
>
> http://tinyurl.com/bzcmn
>
> is this guy a crook or what
>
> has anyone heard any results of the private showing last saturday
>
> -alex
>
> _________________________________________________________________
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 20 15:52:45 2005
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Subject: Re: sterling jobs in phoenix
Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 18:48:42 -0400
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STIRLING ENERGY SYSTEMS has a bright future in my opinion.  No pun intended. 
Everyone should see the writing on the wall.  Oil and natural gas are 
increasing in price, alternative energy is decreasing in price.  We are very 
close to where they cross price points, in some instances they already have, 
and people start switching to alternative energy en mass.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jed Rothwell" <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
To: <vortex-L eskimo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2005 2:34 PM
Subject: Re: sterling jobs in phoenix


The machine looks a delicate and unwieldy, but the claims are impressive. 
See:

http://www.stirlingenergy.com/news%5CSES%20Press%20-%20SDGE%20V%203.pdf

"STIRLING ENERGY SYSTEMS SIGNS SECOND LARGE SOLAR
DEAL IN CALIFORNIA
Solar Installation To Produce 300-900 Megawatts
PHOENIX, Sept. 7, 2005 - Stirling Energy Systems (SES)
announced today a contract with San Diego Gas & Electric (SDG&E)
to provide between 300 and 900 megawatts (MW) of solar power . . ."



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 20 16:00:13 2005
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Subject: Re: toyota going total hybrid
Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 18:51:53 -0400
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Toyota has also announced that they are working to cut the hybrid premium 
(around $3,000 for a Prius) in half.  I think with gasoline prices rising in 
coming years, every car model will have hybrid option by 2015.  Don't listen 
to the rhetoric about oil prices, just watch the price, oil is a very fluid 
market, the price tells us how available it really is.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Alex Caliostro" <caliostro1795 hotmail.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2005 3:15 PM
Subject: toyota going total hybrid


> September 14, 2005
> Toyota Says It Plans Eventually to Offer an All-Hybrid Fleet
> By BLOOMBERG NEWS
> FRANKFURT, Sept. 13 (Bloomberg News) - The Toyota Motor Corporation said 
> this week that all its vehicles would eventually be run by hybrid 
> gasoline-electric motors, as record fuel prices curb demand for 
> conventional automobiles.
>
> "In the future, the cars you see from Toyota will be 100 percent hybrid," 
> Kazuo Okamoto, executive vice president, told reporters in Frankfurt 
> Monday, without giving a specific timetable.
>
> Toyota, Japan's biggest carmaker and second to General Motors worldwide, 
> is aiming to make as many as 400,000 gasoline-electric vehicles in 2006, 
> including Prius cars, Camry sedans, Highlander sport utility vehicles and 
> Coaster buses, Katsuaki Watanabe, president of Toyota, said at an investor 
> conference in New York Monday. That would be 60 percent more than 2005's 
> objective, he added.
>
> Toyota has sold 425,000 gasoline-electric cars since 1997 and is trying to 
> profit from its lead over General Motors and Ford Motor. Mr. Watanabe said 
> he aimed to cut production costs and halve the $5,000 price premium on 
> such vehicles, without giving details.
>
> "Toyota has been the leader of the pack in environmental technology, and 
> they will probably continue to be," said Norihito Kanai, an analyst at 
> Meiji Dresdner Asset Management in Tokyo. "Many of its rivals were at 
> first not so aggressive in hybrids, but now we see everyone joining."
>
> Hybrid vehicles combine a gasoline engine with a battery pack that is 
> recharged through braking. Electricity powers the vehicle at low speeds, 
> enabling the Prius to go up to 55 miles on a gallon of gasoline, double 
> the mileage of an automobile that runs on a conventional engine.
>
> A Prius hybrid carries a sticker price of $20,875 in California. The cost 
> of those components makes hybrids $3,000 to $5,000 more expensive than 
> gasoline-engine autos, according to automakers and analysts.
>
> Mr. Watanabe told investors he could not give a time frame for halving the 
> price premium. Nihon Keizai reported on its Web site Tuesday that he gave 
> a target of 2010.
>
> Fujio Cho, Mr. Watanabe's predecessor, previously set a goal of selling 
> 300,000 hybrids annually worldwide by the end of 2005, and last year he 
> pushed back the date to 2006. Jim Press, Toyota's United States sales 
> chief, said a shortage of batteries and other parts would probably hold 
> back production. The company is planning to sell 240,000 to 250,000 
> hybrids this year and a million a year by 2010.
>
> "We believe that in 10 years the world will be filled with hybrids," Mr. 
> Okamoto said.
>
> http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/14/automobiles/14toyota.html
>
> _________________________________________________________________
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 20 17:20:22 2005
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Subject: Re: genesis shipping
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<<rumor is that these guys are shipping product>>

Alex, if this was real the world would be beating a path to their door. By 
the time we heard about it, it would be big, the following day it would be 
huge, a week later it would be gigantic. One month afterwards, the world 
would have changed. Have you not read the hard business view of how a 
genuine kW plus generator would turn everything upside down virtually 
overnight? Read some of Jed's musings in his online book at the (reasonably 
named) LENR-CANR site

Nick Palmer 


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 20 17:48:01 2005
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Subject: Re: LENR-CANR is UNOFFICIAL -- and so it says, Matey,  arrrrgggg!
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 01:32:07 +0100
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<<It is NOT mine, and Swartz is caught in his own net of falsehoods again.
Q.E.D. And P.D.Q. And also I.T.L.A.P.D. Hi, ho, Matey! Avast, and shiver me
timbers. How's that fer splittin' hairs and deliberately misreadin' the
Queen's English? Arrrrrr!!!>>

Somewhere, Chris Tinsley is, sardonically, smiling...


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Subject: Re: no charge tilly
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 01:24:32 +0100
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99% sure he's a crook - or seriously deluded

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Subject: Re: Sponsorship request
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Believe it is possible for the members of the Vorts group to share the =
costs of this conference by each ponying up 25 to 50 bucks via check in =
lieu of a pledge and sending the money  to the New Energy Institute now.

Surely Steven has demonstrated his work and concern for new energy. It =
is important for all to assist him.

Richard

  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Steven Krivit=20
  To: vortex-l eskimo.com=20
  Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 3:16 PM
  Subject: Sponsorship request


  Dear Vo,

  A few days ago, I received notice that my abstract, "How Can Cold =
Fusion Be Real, Considering It Was Disproved By Several Well-Respected =
Laboratories in 1989?", was accepted for oral presentation at the =
International Congress of Nanotechnology, which will be held on October =
31-November 4, 2005 in San Francisco.  =20

  It was actually someone here on Vortex that first alerted me to this =
conference several months ago. I contacted the organizers and told them =
that there were some interesting relationships between CF and NANO, and =
asked if they would like to know more.

  I am looking for financial sponsorship for this project. The travel =
and conference fee costs total $895.

  The mission of this project, as with my recent ICENES presentation, is =
to help bridge the gap between the cold fusion community and the rest of =
 the scientific community and science media .

  I received a pledge today of $350 from one sponsor, and I am looking =
for a pledge(s) to cover the remaining $545. Most likely, donations at =
this time to New Energy Institute Inc. will be tax-deductible, though I =
cannot guarantee such. I expect to receive the determination letter from =
the IRS within two months.

  The written paper is due by the end of this week and I would place =
notice of sponsorship on the paper, as well as the presentation.=20

  If you are able to help, please reply OFF-LIST.

  Thank you.


  Steven B. Krivit
  Editor, New Energy Times
  Executive Director, New Energy Institute Inc.
  NEW ENERGY TIMES=20
  Your best source for cold fusion news and information.=20

  11664 National Blvd. Suite 142
  Los Angeles, California, USA 90064
  www.newenergytimes.com
  Cell phone: (310) 721-5919
  Office Phone: (310) 470-8189
  Fax: (432) 577-3630


------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C5BE21.D3690300
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2722" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana size=3D2>Believe it is possible for the =
members of the=20
Vorts group to share the costs of this conference by each ponying up 25 =
to 50=20
bucks via check in lieu of a pledge and sending the money&nbsp; to the =
New=20
Energy Institute now.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana size=3D2>Surely Steven has demonstrated his =
work and=20
concern for new energy. It is important for all to assist =
him.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana size=3D2>Richard</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3Dsteven newenergytimes.com=20
  href=3D"mailto:steven newenergytimes.com">Steven Krivit</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dvortex-l eskimo.com=20
  href=3D"mailto:vortex-l eskimo.com">vortex-l@eskimo.com</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, September 19, =
2005 3:16=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Sponsorship =
request</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>Dear Vo,<BR><BR>A few days ago, I received notice that =
my=20
  abstract, <FONT face=3Darial size=3D2><I>"How Can Cold Fusion Be Real, =
Considering=20
  It Was Disproved By Several Well-Respected Laboratories in 1989?", =
</I>was=20
  accepted for oral presentation at the International Congress of=20
  Nanotechnology, which will be held on October 31-November 4, 2005 in =
San=20
  Francisco.&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR><BR>It was actually someone here on Vortex =
that=20
  first alerted me to this conference several months ago. I contacted =
the=20
  organizers and told them that there were some interesting =
relationships=20
  between CF and NANO, and asked if they would like to know =
more.<BR><BR>I am=20
  looking for financial sponsorship for this project. The travel and =
conference=20
  fee costs total $895.<BR><BR>The mission of this project, as with my =
recent=20
  ICENES presentation, is to help bridge the gap between the cold fusion =

  community and the rest of&nbsp; the scientific community and science =
media=20
  .<BR><BR>I received a pledge today of $350 from one sponsor, and I am =
looking=20
  for a pledge(s) to cover the remaining $545. Most likely, donations at =
this=20
  time to New Energy Institute Inc. will be tax-deductible, though I =
cannot=20
  guarantee such. I expect to receive the determination letter from the =
IRS=20
  within two months.<BR><BR></FONT>The written paper is due by the end =
of this=20
  week and I would place notice of sponsorship on the paper, as well as =
the=20
  presentation. <BR><BR>If you are able to help, please reply=20
  OFF-LIST.<BR><BR>Thank you.<BR><BR><X-SIGSEP>
  <P></X-SIGSEP>Steven B. Krivit<BR>Editor, New Energy =
Times<BR>Executive=20
  Director, New Energy Institute Inc.<BR><FONT size=3D4><B><I><A=20
  href=3D"http://www.newenergytimes.com/">NEW</A> <A=20
  href=3D"http://www.newenergytimes.com/">ENERGY =
TIMES</A></I></B></FONT><FONT=20
  size=3D5> <BR></FONT><B><I>Your best source for cold fusion news and=20
  information. <BR><BR></I></B>11664 National Blvd. Suite 142<BR>Los =
Angeles,=20
  California, USA 90064<BR><A=20
  =
href=3D"http://www.newenergytimes.com/">www.newenergytimes.com</A><BR>Cel=
l=20
  phone: (310) 721-5919<BR>Office Phone: (310) 470-8189<BR>Fax: (432)=20
  577-3630<BR></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C5BE21.D3690300--


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 20 18:32:00 2005
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>From: "Nick Palmer"

>Alex, if this was real the world would be beating a path to their door.

but what are the pictures about

-alex

_________________________________________________________________
Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! 
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 20 19:16:00 2005
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Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 22:15:01 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell mindspring.com>
Reply-To: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Plagarism By Cold Fusion Times
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Well, this certainly is bad form, but since the Cold Fusion Times version does show that John Coviello is the author, I do not think it is plagarism. It is a copyright violation.

- Jed



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Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 22:27:29 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell mindspring.com>
Reply-To: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: European carmakers upset by hybrids
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There is an interesting side note in the N. Y. Times about hybrids. Many European carmakers are feeling stampeded into making hybrids, which they feel are a passing fad. They are developing them grudgingly, in case customer demand continues to increase. They say that their diesel cars get just as good mileage, they are simpler and cheaper, and you can turn them off while waiting at a red light, just as you can turn off a hybrid.

I think they are missing the point. Diesel technology has been in intensive development for decades, and it is probably reaching the peak of its potential efficiency. Hybrid technology just began, and it is already about equal to the best diesels. With better, lighter batteries it will surpass diesel, and with a plug-in version it will leave it far behind in cost, efficiency, CO2 reduction, and so on.

Of course you can make a diesel hybrid, and I think the Europeans, with their expertise, should be considering that.

- Jed



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Subject: ANS conference
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--=====================_710886312==.ALT
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><http://www.ANS.org>www.ANS.org
>
>The LENR session will be Thursday, 17 November 2005
>
>Low-Energy Nuclear Reactions, sponsored by IRD. Session Organizer:
>Bob Smith (Oakton Int). All invited. [Track 7]

>Nuclear Reaction Pathways Resulting from Phonon Interactions, Peter
>Laurence Hagelstein (MIT)

>Evidence for Intense Soft X-Ray Emission from a Hydride Target Undergoing
>Intense Deuteron Bombardment, George H. Miley (Univ of Illinois)

>Dual Ohmic Controls Improve Understanding of "Heat After Death,"
>Mitchell R. Swartz, Gayle Verner (JET Thermal Products)

>Bose-Einstein Fusion Mechanism for Low-Energy Nuclear Reaction and
>Transmutation Processes in Micro- and Nano-Scale High-Density Deuteron
>Plasmas, Yeong E. Kim (Purdue Univ)

Development of Methodology for the Evaluation of Relationship Between
Coherent Zener Breakdown and Tunneling in Finite Lattices: Why Nano-
Scale PdD Crystals Can Turn-on Faster, Scott R. Chubb, Sr. (Research Systems)

Three Types of dd Fusion, Talbot Chubb (Research Physicist)

Low Energy Nuclear Reactions, David J. Nagel (George Washington Univ)


S 
--=====================_710886312==.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
<body>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab> <br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite=""><a href="http://www.ANS.org">
www.ANS.org</a><br>
&nbsp;<br>
The LENR session will be Thursday, 17 November 2005<br>
&nbsp;<br>
Low-Energy Nuclear Reactions, sponsored by IRD. Session Organizer:<br>
Bob Smith (Oakton Int). All invited. [Track 7]</blockquote><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">Nuclear Reaction Pathways
Resulting from Phonon Interactions, Peter<br>
Laurence Hagelstein (MIT)<br>
</blockquote><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">Evidence for Intense Soft X-Ray
Emission from a Hydride Target Undergoing<br>
Intense Deuteron Bombardment, George H. Miley (Univ of Illinois)<br>
</blockquote><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">Dual Ohmic Controls Improve
Understanding of “Heat After Death,”<br>
Mitchell R. Swartz, Gayle Verner (JET Thermal Products)<br>
</blockquote><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">Bose-Einstein Fusion Mechanism
for Low-Energy Nuclear Reaction and<br>
Transmutation Processes in Micro- and Nano-Scale High-Density
Deuteron<br>
Plasmas, Yeong E. Kim (Purdue Univ)<br>
</blockquote><br>
Development of Methodology for the Evaluation of Relationship
Between<br>
Coherent Zener Breakdown and Tunneling in Finite Lattices: Why Nano-<br>
Scale PdD Crystals Can Turn-on Faster, Scott R. Chubb, Sr. (Research
Systems)<br><br>
Three Types of dd Fusion, Talbot Chubb (Research Physicist)<br><br>
Low Energy Nuclear Reactions, David J. Nagel (George Washington
Univ)<br><br>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
S</body>
</html>

--=====================_710886312==.ALT--

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Subject: Re: Plagarism  
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--=====================_711506765==.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

Jed,

Copyright violation? Yes. But that's not we care about so much.

It was a collaborative piece. As editor, I worked extensively with John on 
it. Also my copy editor, Cindy Goldstein worked on it.

So when we don't get any credit or recognition for it appearing 
elsewhere...that's the part that really sucks.


s  
--=====================_711506765==.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
<body>
Jed,<br><br>
Copyright violation? Yes. But that's not we care about so much.<br><br>
It was a collaborative piece. As editor, I worked extensively with John
on it. Also my copy editor, Cindy Goldstein worked on it. <br><br>
So when we don't get any credit or recognition for it appearing
elsewhere...that's the part that really <u>sucks</u>.<br><br>
<br>
s </body>
</html>

--=====================_711506765==.ALT--

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Thanks Richard:

Goal: $895
Received: 3 pledges totalling $650
Remaining: $245

Who wants in? :)

My paper is due Friday. Pledges or donations received by Thursday night 
will be recognized in the paper and presentation, unless anonymity requested.

Donations: http://newenergytimes.com/paypaldonate.htm  : "One-Time Donation"

Thanks for the support.

Steve


At 06:28 PM 9/20/2005, you wrote:
>Believe it is possible for the members of the Vorts group to share the 
>costs of this conference by each ponying up 25 to 50 bucks via check in 
>lieu of a pledge and sending the money  to the New Energy Institute now.
>
>Surely Steven has demonstrated his work and concern for new energy. It is 
>important for all to assist him.
>
>Richard
>

--=====================_711992328==.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
<body>
Thanks Richard:<br><br>
Goal: $895<br>
Received: 3 pledges totalling $650<br>
Remaining: $245<br><br>
Who wants in? :)<br><br>
My paper is due Friday. Pledges or donations received by Thursday night
will be recognized in the paper and presentation, unless anonymity
requested.<br><br>
Donations:
<a href="http://newenergytimes.com/paypaldonate.htm" eudora="autourl">
http://newenergytimes.com/paypaldonate.htm</a>&nbsp; :
&quot;<font size=2>One-Time Donation</font>&quot;<br><br>
Thanks for the support.<br><br>
Steve<br><br>
<br>
At 06:28 PM 9/20/2005, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite=""><font face="verdana" size=2>
Believe it is possible for the members of the Vorts group to share the
costs of this conference by each ponying up 25 to 50 bucks via check in
lieu of a pledge and sending the money&nbsp; to the New Energy Institute
now.<br>
</font>&nbsp;<br>
<font face="verdana" size=2>Surely Steven has demonstrated his work and
concern for new energy. It is important for all to assist him.<br>
</font>&nbsp;<br>
<font face="verdana" size=2>Richard<br>
</font>&nbsp;</blockquote></body>
</html>

--=====================_711992328==.ALT--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 20 21:39:49 2005
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Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 14:30:19 +1000
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I can remember when the biowarfare lab was on [or under] some remote 
farm in the desert somewhere. Dam those budget cuts now we're having to 
do it in Jersy.
Alex Caliostro wrote:

>> From: "Jones Beene"
>
>
>> Not to mention.... One suspects that the "strain" of plague which 
>> they have on hand at these bioterrorism labs might be a tad more 
>> virulent than the run-of-the-mill field mouse variety.
>
>
> so now our universities are developing bioweapons
>
> this reminds me of those headlines two weeks ago
>
> E COLI FOUND IN NEW ORLEANS WATER
>
> if these jounalists would look around where they have their heads they 
> would find lots of e coli
>
> WWFSMD?
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how 
> to get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement
>

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When I was a child, I had my first "scientific debate".
I think vorts will find the line of reasoning very
familiar.

This was a long, long time ago. Truman was still President.
I was attending what today would be called a pre-school. It
was quite a nice place with well-behaved children.

I remember this as if it were an hour ago.  I was standing
out on the lawn looking up at the sky when another little
boy named Sammy Knight asked, "Hey Mike, watcha lookin' at?"

"The moon.", I answered.

"Can't be the moon!", Sammy yelled.

"Why not?", I asked.

"The moon only comes out at night.", said Sammy.

"Well just look up at it. It's the moon.", I insisted.

"I don't have to.", replied Sammy. "Everybody knows
the moon only comes out at night."

A little girl standing nearby added, "I dunno, Sammy,
it looks like the moon, only there's blue in it, like
the sky."

"You're both so stupid, the moon only comes out night."
Sammy yelled again.

"Is it really the moon?", the little girl asked me.

"It sure looks like the moon." I said.

"I dunno, I think Sammy must be right." said the little girl,
her eyes cast downward.

Kind of sounds like cold fusion opponents, no?

M.






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Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
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Alex Caliostro wrote:

> an electric car that does not need charging
>
> http://tinyurl.com/bzcmn
>
> is this guy a crook or what
>
> has anyone heard any results of the private showing last saturday
>
> -alex
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now! 
> http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/
>
See http://www.keelynet.com/tilley/tillTEV.htm
Still got me stumped.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 20 22:51:30 2005
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Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 00:49:43 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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>Jed Rothwell wrote:
>
>>Wesley Bruce wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I just ask you to be as open to the creationists as you ask others 
>>>to open to the data on cold fusion.
>>
>>precursors; and biological mechanisms are about as unintelligent as 
>>anything could be. If there is a designer he is not intelligent but 
>>rather pathologically stupid or just plain malicious. Ask any woman 
>>in labor.

That's hubris. You're ignoring the role of sin in the present 
condition of the World.

>>
>>
>>>No creationist I know of has ever attacked cold fusion.
>>
>>
>>So what? Neither has any member of the Ku Klux Klan, as far as I know.
>>
>>>The creationists have had decades more experience at fighting 
>>>these subtle and overt attempts at suppression.
>>
>>
>>They deserve to be suppressed. They would replace science with 
>>superstitious malarkey. They would lead us back into the dark ages 
>>when people's minds were

I'm reminded of Parksie's attacks on Creationism, anyone with any 
understanding of Information Science realizes that the arguments that 
we make regarding the complexity of biological systems, and ergo the 
absurdity of spontaneous biogenesis necessitate a designer.

>>
>>>I think you have good reasons for wanting to prevent Al-Qaeda from 
>>>getting cold fusion nuclear subs or something.
>>
>>
>>There is not the slightest chance Al-Qaeda will *make* cold fusion 
>>devices, or for that matter, conventional fission bombs. The only 
>>danger is that they will steal
>

Baloney, the world is full of radionuclides, many of which are 
fissile. Making a bomb is difficult, fortunately, but not impossible.



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posted

Carefully with Carl Tilley.  He has a dubious past.  See this for background
info: http://www.greaterthings.com/News/Tilley/fraud/index.html

----- Original Message -----

>  an electric car that does not need charging
>
>  http://tinyurl.com/bzcmn
>

I've been following this story for over two years. IMHO, if Tilley 
had a working  F E machine. he would have demonstrated it. I my 
business associate, Leon, who ignored our advice and invested in 
Tilley Foundation. I'll mention this to him, but Carl is giving all 
the signs of a fraud. Part of Carl's shtick was that he was going to 
power his shop with one of his engines, AFAIK, the utility 
connections are still hooked up to it.

As for Genesis, I've been following them for even longer. I signed 
their NDNC, which was so restrictive that Leon refused to sign it. I 
reasoned that I don't have a clue how to run an engine on water and 
signed. I made it clear that no money would be forthcoming until I 
tested a prototype. That was the last I heard from them.

My friend, who is following the Ring of Fire, spark plug, see my 
previous posting on that, was going on about running an I C motor on 
just water vapor. There being no reason for this to work, I wished 
him the best. I'd be tickled to admit that I was wrong, OTOH, I'm not 
holding by breath waiting for any of these schemes to work.

Now running an I C engine on a mixture of water and fuel, IMHO,that's 
another matter. Particularly if the Ring of Fire plug.

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Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 00:49:43 -0500
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Subject: Batteries
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Steven Johnson posted;

Recently I purchased an impressive new brand of rechargeable 
batteries (AAs) that charge to 100% capacity within 15 minutes. I bet 
many Vorts have already seen these marvels sold at stores like 
Battery Plus.

AFAIK, the faster the recharge, the shorter the battery life. IMHO, 
building a battery powered car is not cost effective baring a 
breakthrough in battery technology, and AFAIK, that means the 
Aluminium Battery, the car is too heavy, and too short lived to be a 
good investment. Now the air powered car, that's another matter. I 
wonder how a air powered hybrid would work.

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Jed Rothwell posted;

  autonomous "robot chicken" flyers that are capable of crossing the 
Pacific Ocean. Imagine they manufacture several hundred million of 
these devices over 30 years. They equip each robot with a packet of 
high-quality crack cocaine. The robots go to the US, find people at 
random on the street, and using low level artificial intelligence, 
offer to trade the cocaine for cash, gold, a Rolex watch, a stock 
certificate, or anything else that is small and valuable. The robot 
carries the money back to China and returns with another load of 
drugs. After a few years millions of people are addicted, hundreds of 
thousands are dying every year, the economy is in a shambles, farms 
and factories have been abandoned, crime has reached catastrophic 
levels, and an unstoppable, unrestricted river of cocaine continues 
to come into the country.

Considering what the predecessors of our ruling class did to China, 
thereby provoking the Boxer Rebellion, that scenario would be just 
deserts. However, the Chinese, who are much more practical, have 
developed a much more effective method. They use slave labor to 
manufacture low cost products, ship over boat loads of them, then 
they wire the cash back and invest it in mortgages. Same result, 
cheaper, and legal.

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Does this mean we need to look out for some plague ridden animal 
liberation types? Break out the flea bombs this means war!
Jones Beene wrote:

> To the tune of "Three blind mice... see how they run...."
>  
> "About" two weeks ago, authorities now admit, in a forced-disclosure 
> following inside "leaks", three mice infected with the **Bubonic 
> Plague** a.k.a. the "black death" which devastated Europe during the 
> middle ages, went missing from a New Jersey "bioterrorism" lab.
>  
> ...don't you just love the "went missing" euphemism?
> The so-called "Public Health Research Institute," which is on the 
> campus of the University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey say 
> their "lost charges are probably dead by now." The PHRI is a prime 
> example of the rapidly accelerated militarization of America's 
> campuses - following the Cheney-Bush's 'War on Terrorism' initiative, 
> which ate up much of the funding for such projects as Corps of 
> Engineering Levee strengthening (which had been approved earlier but 
> was put on indefinite hold). The lab was set up, rather quietly and 
> furtively, but through the University, solely to do controversial 
> bioterrorism research for the federal government, while not alarming 
> future health-care professionals.
>  
> Errr...let's see..."the lost charges are probably dead by now"... 
> riiiight...
>  
> But does their demise have anything to do with fluffy the cat being a 
> little under the weather these days... and is the "black death" now 
> latent in Joisy?
>  
> Inquiring minds want to know.... or as the Brits say, "shouldn't we be 
> told?" And not "about" two weeks later, one might add.
>  
> But the PHRI adds that the possibility the mice were stolen, even by 
> "activists" has not been ruled out. Riiiight, we have to do a 
> little blame-shifting here. Why didn't they just blame it on Arabs? 
>  The FBI conducted more than two dozen interviews with employees of 
> the lab, and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention too has 
> sent investigators to the campus. The University is not commenting at 
> this time on the investigation and wishes it would all go away. PETA 
> is probably on-the-way, as we speak, according to spokesperson Kate 
> Moss, "and I would go too if it weren't for this awful sinus...."
>
> Wonder if that old shot (i.e. injection - ouch I can still feel it) - 
> which they gave me for plague - back in boot-camp back in the sixties 
> at Ft Leonard Wood (aka Little-Korea), is still good ?
>  
> Jones
>
> 4000 Years of Progress in the History of Medicine -
>
> 2000 B.C. - Sick? Here, eat this root, brother
> 33     A.D. - Dead? Brother, rise up and walk
> 1000 A.D. - That root is heathen. Brother, you must say this prayer.
> 1850 A.D. - That prayer is superstition, friend. Here, drink this potion.
> 1920 A.D. - That potion is mostly alcohol, sinner. Take our new pill 
> and pass the collection plate
> 1985 A.D. - That pill is no longer effective, bug-mutation. Here, take 
> this newer antibiotic.
> 2000 A.D. - That antibiotic doesn't work anymore. Here, eat this root.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 21 00:42:21 2005
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Remy wrote:

>However the BBC and other UK providers have dropped "Received Pronunciation"
>and we are greeted with wild accents ranging from Brummie to Jordie. Nothing
>wrong with this as long as it is mild and correct and this does much to drop
>the comic connotations associated with such accents (think Red Dwarf and
>Lester or Cat for that matter) but a "posh accent" was a requisite for
>social mobility. I'm not saying bring back the bad old days but things have
>gone a little to far!?

Remy, I think I might be the only American on this list who has the remotest
idea what you are talking about.  RP, or Standard English, as some have
called it, was made up out of whole cloth about 1870 in an attempt to create
a uniform accent thereby not separating people in England by region or
class.  Naturally, it had the opposite effect, as do all policy wonk schemes.
So it was taught eventually only in the public schools, which we Americans
call private schools, hence the term "public school accent." Hope I'm not
oversimpifying this.

Even though I'm a plain American redneck, I have to say it's sad to see
all the really grand accents disappear.  The curator of the Queen's
pictures, whose name and actual title I can't recall, makes everyone else
in England sound like a cockney.  But he's pretty old and when he and
his contemporaries go, that will be about it. I wonder how things sound
around White's and the RAC these days.

The grandest, haughtiest accent I ever heard in person, was that of 
Michael Straight, whose sister Bea was a friend of mine.  Everything he
said sounded so witheringly condescending that a few words from him seemed
to drop the temperature of the room a few degrees.  I imagine his old pals,
Philby, Blount, Burgess and Maclean had similar accents.  Michael Straight,
you may recall, bailed out of his Soviet spying duties just in time not to
be associated with the more famous four.  He was later editor and publisher
of the New Republic, a magazine of the far left that Jed has recently
characterized as "mainstream".

>A friend of mine out in Kent who is some 30 years older than me puts it this
>way: all human activity goes in cycles from one extreme to another, be it
>accents, foreign policy, people's suspicions of foreigners, how fathers hold
>their children (oops what will people think if I hold my little girl in my
>lap just a bit to long? Am I cold or am I a perv?).

>The only conclusion is that most people are dumb and need to be lead or at
>least have an example set to them.

Hey, just a minute.  Didn't you say earlier that you had "faith in democracy"?

>There you go I'm non-authoritarian authoritarian, non-patrician patrician of
>the right liberal leaning kind.

Winston Churchill said that the United State and Great Britain were two
countries separated by a common language. And let me translate a few
things for you here, Remy.  In the U.K. and in Europe, you call your
socialists "socialists".  Here in the U.S., we call our socialists "liberals".
How that came to be I am not sure. I can't think of anything more illiberal
than socialism.  Since liberals have hijacked the word, we have had to make
up a replacement.  That is "libertarian". Pretty confusing, no?

BTW, Remy, how did a nice Brit boy such as yourself get that suspiciously
froggy name?

M. (Who has wandered far OT)

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(I wrote:)
>> Yes, and so much worse than those non-racist bigots we used to
>> have.

Jones Beene wrote:

> If you are implying the two words are synonomous, that is
> incorrect. A racist is a subset, but in fact the great majority of
> bigots are not overtly racist. Case in point: the term 'bigot' is
> most often applied these days to religion, but even the most
> ardent religious bigots, like Pat Roberstson and the other
> televangelists, are seldom racist - in fact these religious bigots
> often make open attempts to publicly demonstate non-racism. Their
> private opinions may be another matter.

No, Jones, I am implying no such thing. It was just an apparently failed
attempt at humor.  Lighten up a little, you'll live longer.  Just another 
duplicate message from the department of redundancy department.

M.

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 21 02:26:02 2005
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I did not like the fact that permission to use my name was not sought by 
Cold Fusion Times.  They rewrote the article ever so slightly and never 
asked me, the original author, if I was satisfied with what they had done to 
my piece.  Also no permission was sought or credit given to the article 
owner, New Energy Times.  Like this would ever fly in the mainstream media? 
Newsweek could fire all their writers and just rehash stories that appear in 
Time and U.S. News and World Report, and not even give credit to the other 
organizations or seek permission of the writers to use their names on the 
modified stories.

I see this Cold Fusion Times incident as plagiarism, because they reprinted 
a story without permission.  Using my name is inconsequential, because 
permission was never granted to use my name on their piece in the first 
place.  If he was just rehashing public Internet postings, as claimed, why 
even include my name on it?

The whole thing stinks.  This is not how professional journalism outfits 
operate.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jed Rothwell" <jedrothwell mindspring.com>
To: <vortex-L eskimo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2005 10:15 PM
Subject: Re: Plagarism By Cold Fusion Times


> Well, this certainly is bad form, but since the Cold Fusion Times version 
> does show that John Coviello is the author, I do not think it is 
> plagarism. It is a copyright violation.
>
> - Jed
>
>
> 

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Nick Palmer wrote:

> <<rumor is that these guys are shipping product>>
>
> Alex, if this was real the world would be beating a path to their 
> door. By the time we heard about it, it would be big, the following 
> day it would be huge, a week later it would be gigantic. One month 
> afterwards, the world would have changed. Have you not read the hard 
> business view of how a genuine kW plus generator would turn everything 
> upside down virtually overnight? Read some of Jed's musings in his 
> online book at the (reasonably named) LENR-CANR site
>
> Nick Palmer
>
Don't be surprised if people ship hundreds of cold fusion cells or 
something for weeks before everyone catches on that it's something big. 
Particularly if its got a cunning name that says nothing much but can be 
remembered. An Iron Alkali battery is called an Edison cell. This does 
not seem to be an Edison cell; such a cell would produce hydrogen but 
not oxygen in gas form. The possibility is that this is a nuclear 
thermal lenr reaction augmenting the normal electrolytic/ chemical process.

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$895 s'nuthin. Pocket money. An editor living in Los Angeles in the richest
state in the richest country? If it was $8950 I could understand.

 

  _____  

From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On
Behalf Of RC Macaulay
Sent: 21 September 2005 02:28
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Sponsorship request

 

Believe it is possible for the members of the Vorts group to share the costs
of this conference by each ponying up 25 to 50 bucks via check in lieu of a
pledge and sending the money  to the New Energy Institute now.

 

Surely Steven has demonstrated his work and concern for new energy. It is
important for all to assist him.

 

Richard

 

----- Original Message ----- 

From: Steven <mailto:steven newenergytimes.com>  Krivit 

To: vortex-l eskimo.com <mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com>  

Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 3:16 PM

Subject: Sponsorship request

 

Dear Vo,

A few days ago, I received notice that my abstract, "How Can Cold Fusion Be
Real, Considering It Was Disproved By Several Well-Respected Laboratories in
1989?", was accepted for oral presentation at the International Congress of
Nanotechnology, which will be held on October 31-November 4, 2005 in San
Francisco.   

It was actually someone here on Vortex that first alerted me to this
conference several months ago. I contacted the organizers and told them that
there were some interesting relationships between CF and NANO, and asked if
they would like to know more.

I am looking for financial sponsorship for this project. The travel and
conference fee costs total $895.

The mission of this project, as with my recent ICENES presentation, is to
help bridge the gap between the cold fusion community and the rest of  the
scientific community and science media .

I received a pledge today of $350 from one sponsor, and I am looking for a
pledge(s) to cover the remaining $545. Most likely, donations at this time
to New Energy Institute Inc. will be tax-deductible, though I cannot
guarantee such. I expect to receive the determination letter from the IRS
within two months.

The written paper is due by the end of this week and I would place notice of
sponsorship on the paper, as well as the presentation. 

If you are able to help, please reply OFF-LIST.

Thank you.




Steven B. Krivit
Editor, New Energy Times
Executive Director, New Energy Institute Inc.
NEW <http://www.newenergytimes.com/>  ENERGY TIMES
<http://www.newenergytimes.com/>  
Your best source for cold fusion news and information. 

11664 National Blvd. Suite 142
Los Angeles, California, USA 90064
www.newenergytimes.com <http://www.newenergytimes.com/> 
Cell phone: (310) 721-5919
Office Phone: (310) 470-8189
Fax: (432) 577-3630


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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>$895 s&#8217;nuthin. Pocket money. =
An
editor living in <st1:City w:st=3D"on"><st1:place w:st=3D"on">Los =
Angeles</st1:place></st1:City>
in the richest state in the richest country? If it was $8950 I could
understand.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>=


<div>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</sp=
an></font></b><font
size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] =
<b><span
style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>RC Macaulay<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> 21 September 2005 =
02:28<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">vortex-l eskimo.com</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: Sponsorship =
request</span></font><span
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Verdana'>Believe it is possible for the members of the =
Vorts group
to share the costs of this conference by each ponying up 25 to 50 bucks =
via
check in lieu of a pledge and sending the money&nbsp; to the New Energy
Institute now.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Verdana'>Surely Steven has demonstrated his work and =
concern for
new energy. It is important for all to assist =
him.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Verdana'>Richard</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid black =
1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt=
'>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>----- Original Message ----- =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div style=3D'font-color:black'>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'background:#E4E4E4'><b><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>From:</spa=
n></font></b><font
size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href=3D"mailto:steven newenergytimes.com" =
title=3D"steven newenergytimes.com">Steven
Krivit</a> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>To:</span></font></b><font size=3D2
face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href=3D"mailto:vortex-l eskimo.com" =
title=3D"vortex-l eskimo.com">vortex-l@eskimo.com</a>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> =
Monday, September
19, 2005 3:16 PM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> =
Sponsorship request<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Dear Vo,<br>
<br>
A few days ago, I received notice that my abstract, =
</span></font><i><font
size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-style:
italic'>&quot;How Can Cold Fusion Be Real, Considering It Was Disproved =
By
Several Well-Respected Laboratories in 1989?&quot;, =
</span></font></i><font
size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>was accepted
for oral presentation at the International Congress of Nanotechnology, =
which
will be held on October 31-November 4, 2005 in San =
Francisco.&nbsp;&nbsp; <br>
<br>
It was actually someone here on Vortex that first alerted me to this =
conference
several months ago. I contacted the organizers and told them that there =
were
some interesting relationships between CF and NANO, and asked if they =
would
like to know more.<br>
<br>
I am looking for financial sponsorship for this project. The travel and
conference fee costs total $895.<br>
<br>
The mission of this project, as with my recent ICENES presentation, is =
to help
bridge the gap between the cold fusion community and the rest of&nbsp; =
the
scientific community and science media .<br>
<br>
I received a pledge today of $350 from one sponsor, and I am looking =
for a
pledge(s) to cover the remaining $545. Most likely, donations at this =
time to
New Energy Institute Inc. will be tax-deductible, though I cannot =
guarantee
such. I expect to receive the determination letter from the IRS within =
two
months.<br>
<br>
</span></font>The written paper is due by the end of this week and I =
would
place notice of sponsorship on the paper, as well as the presentation. =
<br>
<br>
If you are able to help, please reply OFF-LIST.<br>
<br>
Thank you.<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>

<X-SIGSEP>

<p></X-SIGSEP><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Steven
B. Krivit<br>
Editor, New Energy Times<br>
Executive Director, New Energy Institute Inc.<br>
</span></font><b><i><font size=3D4><span =
style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-weight:
bold;font-style:italic'><a =
href=3D"http://www.newenergytimes.com/">NEW</a> <a
href=3D"http://www.newenergytimes.com/">ENERGY =
TIMES</a></span></font></i></b><font
size=3D5><span style=3D'font-size:18.0pt'> <br>
</span></font><b><i><span =
style=3D'font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>Your best
source for cold fusion news and information. <br>
<br>
</span></i></b><st1:Street w:st=3D"on"><st1:address w:st=3D"on">11664 =
National
  Blvd. Suite 142</st1:address></st1:Street><br>
<st1:place w:st=3D"on"><st1:City w:st=3D"on">Los Angeles</st1:City>, =
<st1:State
 w:st=3D"on">California</st1:State>, <st1:country-region =
w:st=3D"on">USA</st1:country-region></st1:place>
90064<br>
<a =
href=3D"http://www.newenergytimes.com/">www.newenergytimes.com</a><br>
Cell phone: (310) 721-5919<br>
Office Phone: (310) 470-8189<br>
Fax: (432) 577-3630<o:p></o:p></p>

</blockquote>

</div>

</body>

</html>

------_=_NextPart_001_01C5BE9F.B279CC32--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 21 05:13:44 2005
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Message-ID: <BE76853CB39E3B47B014207F18386A8F13FE8D40 moulsecoomb.bton.ac.uk>
From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: FW: RP and the BBC
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 13:12:33 +0100
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Sorry Michael, sometimes it picks up Vo other times the sender.

-----Original Message-----
From: Cornwall Remi 
Sent: 21 September 2005 12:58
To: 'michael.foster excite.com'
Subject: RE: RP and the BBC

Michael,

Ah I've learnt something today... So RP was a construct. How fascinating.
What a good idea to have clear standard, enunciation.

There is a woman who does a cookery program who is the daughter of Nigel
Lawson who used to be Mrs T. chancellor of the exchequer. Now apart from the
name, Nigella which sounds pure Essex-ese (Wayne and Waynetta :) she has
been described as having an accent which makes the queen sound like a sl.t!
Very good looking and very sexy, sounds like a Liz Hurley without the
revealing dresses. Ooooh, tell me off, I love it!

Er... it's "Remi" "with an I at the end dammit!" not "Remy" because that's
the girly way of spelling it. I used to get into a few fights over that one.
No it is apparently French meaning "Rower" but the Nigerians have a claim on
it too.

Yes I subscribe to the libertarian viewpoint which encompasses both left and
right ideas.

Going OT, do you think the CF people should take legal advice? We have
slander and libel here and some time in court could really clear things up -
not! I still think it better if they slugged it out because that's the
bottom line in all disputes, the God given right to land one on someone.
Then they make up.

I'm serious. These people really need to get into the ring with one another.
They will find themselves and respect each other when they're out of breath
and bleeding. Heck, you don't need lawyers! Operate some handicap system to
even out the differences or have teams and a game of tag. It'll be great
fun! What did one of them say "Q.E.D.U.Y.A." wouldn't you just want to land
one on him, the smart a.se.

R.

-----Original Message-----
From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On
Behalf Of Michael Foster
Sent: 21 September 2005 08:42
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: RE: RP and the BBC


Remy wrote:

>However the BBC and other UK providers have dropped "Received
Pronunciation"
>and we are greeted with wild accents ranging from Brummie to Jordie.
Nothing
>wrong with this as long as it is mild and correct and this does much to
drop
>the comic connotations associated with such accents (think Red Dwarf and
>Lester or Cat for that matter) but a "posh accent" was a requisite for
>social mobility. I'm not saying bring back the bad old days but things have
>gone a little to far!?

Remy, I think I might be the only American on this list who has the remotest
idea what you are talking about.  RP, or Standard English, as some have
called it, was made up out of whole cloth about 1870 in an attempt to create
a uniform accent thereby not separating people in England by region or
class.  Naturally, it had the opposite effect, as do all policy wonk
schemes.
So it was taught eventually only in the public schools, which we Americans
call private schools, hence the term "public school accent." Hope I'm not
oversimpifying this.

Even though I'm a plain American redneck, I have to say it's sad to see
all the really grand accents disappear.  The curator of the Queen's
pictures, whose name and actual title I can't recall, makes everyone else
in England sound like a cockney.  But he's pretty old and when he and
his contemporaries go, that will be about it. I wonder how things sound
around White's and the RAC these days.

The grandest, haughtiest accent I ever heard in person, was that of 
Michael Straight, whose sister Bea was a friend of mine.  Everything he
said sounded so witheringly condescending that a few words from him seemed
to drop the temperature of the room a few degrees.  I imagine his old pals,
Philby, Blount, Burgess and Maclean had similar accents.  Michael Straight,
you may recall, bailed out of his Soviet spying duties just in time not to
be associated with the more famous four.  He was later editor and publisher
of the New Republic, a magazine of the far left that Jed has recently
characterized as "mainstream".

>A friend of mine out in Kent who is some 30 years older than me puts it
this
>way: all human activity goes in cycles from one extreme to another, be it
>accents, foreign policy, people's suspicions of foreigners, how fathers
hold
>their children (oops what will people think if I hold my little girl in my
>lap just a bit to long? Am I cold or am I a perv?).

>The only conclusion is that most people are dumb and need to be lead or at
>least have an example set to them.

Hey, just a minute.  Didn't you say earlier that you had "faith in
democracy"?

>There you go I'm non-authoritarian authoritarian, non-patrician patrician
of
>the right liberal leaning kind.

Winston Churchill said that the United State and Great Britain were two
countries separated by a common language. And let me translate a few
things for you here, Remy.  In the U.K. and in Europe, you call your
socialists "socialists".  Here in the U.S., we call our socialists
"liberals".
How that came to be I am not sure. I can't think of anything more illiberal
than socialism.  Since liberals have hijacked the word, we have had to make
up a replacement.  That is "libertarian". Pretty confusing, no?

BTW, Remy, how did a nice Brit boy such as yourself get that suspiciously
froggy name?

M. (Who has wandered far OT)

_______________________________________________
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 21 07:22:49 2005
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Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 10:21:53 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: "Suppression In Science" by Rochus Boerner
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See:

http://www.world-mysteries.com/sci_supr.htm

Nothing you have not heard before . . .

- Jed


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A rich city does not automatically make you a rich man. Cash flow 
problems and debts can make life miserable. Think of it as an 
investment. The nano people have research money to throw around. If we 
help out steven we might just find some coming our way. Hint hint. ;-)
R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk wrote:

> $895 s’nuthin. Pocket money. An editor living in Los Angeles in the 
> richest state in the richest country? If it was $8950 I could understand.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:* vortex-l-request eskimo.com 
> [mailto:vortex-l-request eskimo.com] *On Behalf Of *RC Macaulay
> *Sent:* 21 September 2005 02:28
> *To:* vortex-l eskimo.com
> *Subject:* Re: Sponsorship request
>
> Believe it is possible for the members of the Vorts group to share the 
> costs of this conference by each ponying up 25 to 50 bucks via check 
> in lieu of a pledge and sending the money to the New Energy Institute now.
>
> Surely Steven has demonstrated his work and concern for new energy. It 
> is important for all to assist him.
>
> Richard
>
>     ----- Original Message -----
>
>     *From:* Steven Krivit <mailto:steven newenergytimes.com>
>
>     *To:* vortex-l eskimo.com <mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com>
>
>     *Sent:* Monday, September 19, 2005 3:16 PM
>
>     *Subject:* Sponsorship request
>
>     Dear Vo,
>
>     A few days ago, I received notice that my abstract, /"How Can Cold
>     Fusion Be Real, Considering It Was Disproved By Several
>     Well-Respected Laboratories in 1989?", /was accepted for oral
>     presentation at the International Congress of Nanotechnology,
>     which will be held on October 31-November 4, 2005 in San Francisco.
>
>     It was actually someone here on Vortex that first alerted me to
>     this conference several months ago. I contacted the organizers and
>     told them that there were some interesting relationships between
>     CF and NANO, and asked if they would like to know more.
>
>     I am looking for financial sponsorship for this project. The
>     travel and conference fee costs total $895.
>
>     The mission of this project, as with my recent ICENES
>     presentation, is to help bridge the gap between the cold fusion
>     community and the rest of the scientific community and science media .
>
>     I received a pledge today of $350 from one sponsor, and I am
>     looking for a pledge(s) to cover the remaining $545. Most likely,
>     donations at this time to New Energy Institute Inc. will be
>     tax-deductible, though I cannot guarantee such. I expect to
>     receive the determination letter from the IRS within two months.
>
>     The written paper is due by the end of this week and I would place
>     notice of sponsorship on the paper, as well as the presentation.
>
>     If you are able to help, please reply OFF-LIST.
>
>     Thank you.
>
>
>     Steven B. Krivit
>     Editor, New Energy Times
>     Executive Director, New Energy Institute Inc.
>     */NEW <http://www.newenergytimes.com/> ENERGY TIMES
>     <http://www.newenergytimes.com/>/*
>     */Your best source for cold fusion news and information.
>
>     /*11664 National Blvd. Suite 142
>     Los Angeles, California, USA 90064
>     www.newenergytimes.com <http://www.newenergytimes.com/>
>     Cell phone: (310) 721-5919
>     Office Phone: (310) 470-8189
>     Fax: (432) 577-3630
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 21 09:02:07 2005
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Ford exec: Japanese hogging hybrid parts
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The Japanese automakers are using their leverage as market leaders. 
Surprise, surprise. What did anyone expect they would do?!? The same thing 
may happen with CF, except on a far greater scale, with more dire 
consequences. See:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/AUTOS/09/20/bc.autos.summit.ford.hybrids.reut/index.html

QUOTES:

Ford exec: Japanese hogging hybrid parts

Ford would offer more hybrids, COO says, if more parts were available.

DETROIT (Reuters) - Ford Motor Co. could be offering more hybrid vehicles 
if it weren't for the shortage of specialized components, partly due to the 
"predatory" approach taken by some Japanese automakers, Ford Chief 
Operating Officer Jim Padilla said Tuesday.

"It is a supply issue, and it's supply of several technologies," Padilla 
said at the Reuters Summit in Detroit. "The Japanese have shown a little 
bit of a predatory approach."

. . .

Ford began offering its first hybrids with the Escape sport utility vehicle 
last autumn, lagging firstcomer Honda by five years. It has said it plans 
to build 20,000 units this year, with the addition of the Mercury Mariner SUV.

The No. 2 U.S. automaker gets battery packs for the hybrid system, which 
twins a gasoline engine to an electric motor and batteries to boost fuel 
economy, mainly from Japan's Sanyo Electric Co., and other parts from 
various suppliers, such as Toyota affiliate Aisin Seiki Co.

. . .

"You have to realize that hybrids on the market now go for a $3,000 to 
$3,500 premium, and that only covers a fraction of the costs," he said.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 21 09:08:54 2005
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From: "RC Macaulay" <walhalla cvtv.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <BE76853CB39E3B47B014207F18386A8F13FE8CEF moulsecoomb.bton.ac.uk> <433164DC.5020904@iinet.net.au>
Subject: Re: Sponsorship request
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 11:07:28 -0500
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I'm sending Steven $ 25 bucks if for no other reason than to keep honest 
people honest.. something Steven  does very well.
Richard
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Wesley Bruce" <wesleybruce iinet.net.au>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2005 8:49 AM
Subject: Re: Sponsorship request


>A rich city does not automatically make you a rich man. Cash flow problems 
>and debts can make life miserable. Think of it as an investment. The nano 
>people have research money to throw around. If we help out steven we might 
>just find some coming our way. Hint hint. ;-)
> R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk wrote:
>
>> $895 s’nuthin. Pocket money. An editor living in Los Angeles in the 
>> richest state in the richest country? If it was $8950 I could understand.
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> *From:* vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] 
>> *On Behalf Of *RC Macaulay
>> *Sent:* 21 September 2005 02:28
>> *To:* vortex-l eskimo.com
>> *Subject:* Re: Sponsorship request
>>
>> Believe it is possible for the members of the Vorts group to share the 
>> costs of this conference by each ponying up 25 to 50 bucks via check in 
>> lieu of a pledge and sending the money to the New Energy Institute now.
>>
>> Surely Steven has demonstrated his work and concern for new energy. It is 
>> important for all to assist him.
>>
>> Richard
>>
>>     ----- Original Message -----
>>
>>     *From:* Steven Krivit <mailto:steven newenergytimes.com>
>>
>>     *To:* vortex-l eskimo.com <mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com>
>>
>>     *Sent:* Monday, September 19, 2005 3:16 PM
>>
>>     *Subject:* Sponsorship request
>>
>>     Dear Vo,
>>
>>     A few days ago, I received notice that my abstract, /"How Can Cold
>>     Fusion Be Real, Considering It Was Disproved By Several
>>     Well-Respected Laboratories in 1989?", /was accepted for oral
>>     presentation at the International Congress of Nanotechnology,
>>     which will be held on October 31-November 4, 2005 in San Francisco.
>>
>>     It was actually someone here on Vortex that first alerted me to
>>     this conference several months ago. I contacted the organizers and
>>     told them that there were some interesting relationships between
>>     CF and NANO, and asked if they would like to know more.
>>
>>     I am looking for financial sponsorship for this project. The
>>     travel and conference fee costs total $895.
>>
>>     The mission of this project, as with my recent ICENES
>>     presentation, is to help bridge the gap between the cold fusion
>>     community and the rest of the scientific community and science media 
>> .
>>
>>     I received a pledge today of $350 from one sponsor, and I am
>>     looking for a pledge(s) to cover the remaining $545. Most likely,
>>     donations at this time to New Energy Institute Inc. will be
>>     tax-deductible, though I cannot guarantee such. I expect to
>>     receive the determination letter from the IRS within two months.
>>
>>     The written paper is due by the end of this week and I would place
>>     notice of sponsorship on the paper, as well as the presentation.
>>
>>     If you are able to help, please reply OFF-LIST.
>>
>>     Thank you.
>>
>>
>>     Steven B. Krivit
>>     Editor, New Energy Times
>>     Executive Director, New Energy Institute Inc.
>>     */NEW <http://www.newenergytimes.com/> ENERGY TIMES
>>     <http://www.newenergytimes.com/>/*
>>     */Your best source for cold fusion news and information.
>>
>>     /*11664 National Blvd. Suite 142
>>     Los Angeles, California, USA 90064
>>     www.newenergytimes.com <http://www.newenergytimes.com/>
>>     Cell phone: (310) 721-5919
>>     Office Phone: (310) 470-8189
>>     Fax: (432) 577-3630
>>
>
> 


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 21 09:21:37 2005
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No, not that one.  I tried this about five years ago.  And now,
given the present situation, I think it deserves a second 
look.  I sometimes try things for no rational reason.  It's a
compulsion.  I can't help myself.

Anyway, maybe someone else should try this out.  I hooked
up one of those old commercial hand-held Tesla coils to an
inverter in my car.  I normally use these for starting balky
ion lasers.  The output of the coil was connected to a wire
mesh screen over the air intake.  I took care not to let the
current short out to the metal in the engine.

My half-baked idea was that the the high voltage, high
frequency discharge would somehow ionize the air, including
the expected ozone, to produce more complete combustion in
the engine.  How naive is that?

Well now, the results were somewhat better than I expected.
The power increase was really noticeable.  Believe me, the
way I drive, I'm just the person to notice it.  After four days of 
driving I had what appears to have been a more than 30%
increase in gas (petrol to you, Remi) mileage.  I would have
continued the test longer, but the damn coil burnt out.  I only
have one more of these and I need it for my work.  

I wouldn't have gone on too much longer just because I didn't
know if I was doing engine damage, violating emission
standards, rotting the rubber, etc., etc.  The unanswered 
question is, does it really work?  This would take more of a
double-blind test to verify.  I could have been unconciously
light-footing the accelerator, or changing some other driving
habit.  However, I don't think I would have seen quite that
much of an effect.

I hesitated even to mention this, because it sounds something
like one of those late-night infomercials.  And you can just
imagine what those boneheads are brewing up given the 
present fuel price situation.  You know, something like, "Get
80 mpg in your Cadillac Escalade by inserting this POS in
your cell phone."

Maybe a more adventurous soul could do something
with this.  What if it really works?  Am I beginning to sound
like Ron Popeil?  Makes julliene fries!  What are julliene
fries?

M.




_______________________________________________
Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
The most personalized portal on the Web!


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 21 09:58:26 2005
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From: "Mark Goldes" <mgoldes msn.com>
To: michael.foster excite.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: RE: Ionizing the air intake of an automobile
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 09:54:47 -0700
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Jimmy Lee, CEO of Zenion in Rohnert Park, CA, has a U.S. Patent, probably 
now expired, on a very interesting method of ionizing the air intake to a 
car engine.  His experiments with a VW Diesel pickup achieved a measured 130 
mi/gal.  However, the valves cannot take the heat.  So he has backed the 
system down to a much more modest figure.  High humidity is a serious 
problem for this approach to saving fuel.

Lee is also the inventor of the ion air cleaning and motionless fan 
technology widely sold by Sharper Image.  He has several other ion 
inventions including a hair brush sold in the same catalog.

He was a protege of TT Brown, who patented a motionless fan at the NRL in 
1928.  However, if a fly flew across the front of the fan, it would be dead 
from excess ozone before reaching the opposite side.  Lee sollved the excess 
ozone problem when they worked together at Stanford.  They also built an ion 
high fidelity loudspeaker about a yard wide.  No moving parts.  It was flat 
from 200 hz on up.  Individual instruments could be located in a symphony 
orchestra according to Lee.

After years of struggle, he has made enough that I believe he may be working 
on a new version of his auto engine ionizer.  Up until now, it has not been 
practical to commercialize.


>From: "Michael Foster" <michael.foster excite.com>
>Reply-To: michael.foster excite.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Tesla Automobile
>Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 12:20:19 -0400 (EDT)
>
>
>No, not that one.  I tried this about five years ago.  And now,
>given the present situation, I think it deserves a second
>look.  I sometimes try things for no rational reason.  It's a
>compulsion.  I can't help myself.
>
>Anyway, maybe someone else should try this out.  I hooked
>up one of those old commercial hand-held Tesla coils to an
>inverter in my car.  I normally use these for starting balky
>ion lasers.  The output of the coil was connected to a wire
>mesh screen over the air intake.  I took care not to let the
>current short out to the metal in the engine.
>
>My half-baked idea was that the the high voltage, high
>frequency discharge would somehow ionize the air, including
>the expected ozone, to produce more complete combustion in
>the engine.  How naive is that?
>
>Well now, the results were somewhat better than I expected.
>The power increase was really noticeable.  Believe me, the
>way I drive, I'm just the person to notice it.  After four days of
>driving I had what appears to have been a more than 30%
>increase in gas (petrol to you, Remi) mileage.  I would have
>continued the test longer, but the damn coil burnt out.  I only
>have one more of these and I need it for my work.
>
>I wouldn't have gone on too much longer just because I didn't
>know if I was doing engine damage, violating emission
>standards, rotting the rubber, etc., etc.  The unanswered
>question is, does it really work?  This would take more of a
>double-blind test to verify.  I could have been unconciously
>light-footing the accelerator, or changing some other driving
>habit.  However, I don't think I would have seen quite that
>much of an effect.
>
>I hesitated even to mention this, because it sounds something
>like one of those late-night infomercials.  And you can just
>imagine what those boneheads are brewing up given the
>present fuel price situation.  You know, something like, "Get
>80 mpg in your Cadillac Escalade by inserting this POS in
>your cell phone."
>
>Maybe a more adventurous soul could do something
>with this.  What if it really works?  Am I beginning to sound
>like Ron Popeil?  Makes julliene fries!  What are julliene
>fries?
>
>M.
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
>The most personalized portal on the Web!
>
>


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From: "Jones Beene" <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
To: "vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Scandium, IPE and overunity, Part 1
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 10:05:40 -0700
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Scandium is one of the least-appreciated elements in the periodic table. =
Understandable... since the entire US production last year would fit =
into a briefcase.

Mendeleev, of periodic table acclaim - while demonstrating the "magic" =
predictive powers of a graphical 'structural arrangement' - actually =
foretold the existence of the unknown element - he called it "ekaboron," =
(later Sc) which would have an atomic weight between 40 of calcium and =
48 of titanium. He did this long before what became known as Scandium =
was discovered by Nilson in 1878.=20

Importantly, Scandium is a much more abundant element in the sun and =
stars than here on earth. It is about the 23rd most abundant element in =
the sun, compared to the 50th most abundant on earth (or less). The =
possible reason for that important factoid will perhaps flow from one =
other seldom mentioned feature of this most remarkable element. Its =
nucleus is metastable and structurally deformed. In a stellar nova, =
almost all of it is consumed preferentially because of this =
metastability. However, what little is left may be of high importance =
(and earthly value) if we ever intend to get away from petro-dependence.

Fortunately, Sc is widely distributed on earth, but occurring in very =
minute quantities in 800 mineral species. We could, if warranted, =
drastically increase the production (and lower the enormous present =
price). Scandium is presently being recovered from uranium mill =
tailings. BTW this is one of several reasons (along with radium and =
daughters) that answer the related question of why uranium minerals can =
be far more radioactive than the refined metal. Another important =
factoid is that this goes back to the "feature" of **induced =
radioactivity,** which for lack of a better-known description will be =
labeled as gamma-multiplication or IPE (induce photon emission). An =
element which is not radioactive in itself, when placed in =
emission-field, will drastically multiply both the number of high energy =
photons (which are downshifted) AND also multiply drastically the net =
energy released by the total flux of downshifted photons.

IPE is the key point to this speculative essay, which goes beyond a =
strange metal, and perhaps an even stranger way to possibly achieve =
overunity. Which details will appear in Part 2 of this. BTW this =
putative OU would not necessarily be "free" energy, any more than =
nuclear fission or fusion or LENR is "free". By that caveat, it is meant =
that an unusual nuclear reaction is taking place.=20

Actually this class of reaction has been minimally described in the =
literature, not as IPE but as IGE, or Induced Gamma Emission (more =
prized by the DoD). Highly deformed nuclei are often isomeric, and =
subject to IPE/IGE but in the case of Sc, all of the isotopes and =
isomers appear to be metastable but of lower intensity than the military =
wants, i.e. too "soft."  IGE of the kind the military wants - results =
from nuclear isomerism and induced secondary hard gamma emission. It has =
been described more fully in arcane journals. However, a slightly =
edited, possibly misleading (either cleansed or from 'outsiders') is the =
online stuff, available at:=20
http://www.utdallas.edu/research/quantum/cqeseg3.htm

Years ago, I posted some speculation about the inter-relation between =
the Mossbauer effect and hydrino reactions. The Mossbauer effect itself =
was hypothesized then to be a subset of a larger class of reactions that =
were labeled as IPE- Induced Photon Emissions - which can cover both =
EUV, soft x-rays and hard gammas. There are many who claim, =
off-the-record, that what I am calling IPE technology has been at the =
heart of a DoD "black project" for at least two decades. A little =
information has filtered through over the years, not to mention we have =
the "death ray" meme, which has been relegated to SciFi fantasy. Do not =
believe the fantasy part. And almost no important new information on =
this subject has been forthcoming (even through the cracks) since the  =
9/11 aftermath... indicating that the so-called "Patriot Act" is working =
well enough to stop the flow of vital information for alternative =
energy, if any of that information should arguably also have any =
possible terrorist or military implications.=20

So be it. But in a perfect world of free-flowing information, more would =
be known about IPE and metastability now, and the broader field might =
even end-up having *precise relevance* to LENR or hydrino dynamics - =
this has not happened yet. More on the connection to LENR in Part 2. =
However, to the extent that when carefully controlled, the IPE =
methodology permits a new type of nuclear meta-phenomenon to appear and =
self-perpetuate - a limited *photon chain reaction* - that much is the =
key jumping-off point for a Scandium soft x-ray multiplier.

More on this device in the context of IPE and gamma multiplication in =
part 2 of this post. For now, anyone interested in this, should study =
this important hot-linked chart:

http://ie.lbl.gov/xray/mainpage.htm

There are other elements like Xe (another is not shown), which are =
noteworthy, but Sc can be said to be a singularity. Years ago, when I =
first chanced upon this finding it was evident (to this perpetual =
optimist) that one narrow path to at least a substantial source of =
"alternative energy" was on the horizon, based on the strong anomaly. =
Even if this IPE anomaly does depend on radioactivity high enough to =
frighten the Sierra club, it is likely that it should be useable, but =
how? Sadly, it became clear from trying to interest others in this, even =
a PhD in reactor design that many observers, even scientists, do not =
appreciate the implications of this kind of information. Or else I'm =
reading too much into it (most likely) but let me explain it in more =
detail, and you be your own judge.

Discovering this the strange energy anomaly will involve the effort of =
looking at many elements for comparative purposes from the chart above: =
Look at the element Scandium, first (It is element 21 Sc). Pay close =
attention to the scale on the left. Then compare Sc with all the other =
secondary emitters in the periodic table. Unfortunately the input =
spectrum is not shown for comparative purposes, but it is Americium at 5 =
MeV and the scale would be two narrow blips in the range of a few 100 =
counts.=20

Imagine the possibilities of IGE in the context of "spent" reactor fuel. =
If they are not intriguing, then my apologies for the long posting, and =
the next one will be of even less interest, as it will build on this =
Scandium IPE anomaly. I am just thankful that the Patriot Act =
"enforcers" have overlooked this information (so far)....

...and even more thankful that Mendeleev demonstrated to us all the =
"magic" predictive powers of a graphical 'structural arrangement' ....

Jones



------=_NextPart_000_045F_01C5BE94.058385F0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2722" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff background=3D"">
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Scandium is one of the =
least-appreciated elements=20
in the periodic table. Understandable... since the entire US production =
last=20
year would fit into a briefcase.<BR><BR>Mendeleev, of periodic table =
acclaim -=20
while demonstrating the "magic" predictive powers of a graphical =
'structural=20
arrangement' - actually foretold the existence of&nbsp;the unknown =
element - he=20
called it "ekaboron," (later Sc) which would have an atomic weight =
between 40 of=20
calcium and 48 of titanium. He did this&nbsp;long before what became =
known as=20
Scandium was discovered by Nilson in 1878. <BR><BR>Importantly, Scandium =
is a=20
much more abundant element in the sun and stars than here on earth. It =
is about=20
the 23rd most abundant element in the sun, compared to the 50th most =
abundant on=20
earth (or less). The possible reason for that important factoid will =
perhaps=20
flow from one other seldom mentioned feature of this most remarkable =
element.=20
Its nucleus is metastable and structurally deformed.&nbsp;In a stellar =
nova,=20
almost all of it is consumed preferentially because of this =
metastability.=20
However, what little is left may be of high importance (and earthly =
value) if we=20
ever intend to get away from petro-dependence.<BR><BR>Fortunately, Sc is =
widely=20
distributed on earth, but occurring in very minute quantities in 800 =
mineral=20
species. We could, if warranted, drastically increase the production =
(and lower=20
the enormous present price). Scandium is presently being recovered from =
uranium=20
mill tailings. BTW this&nbsp;is one of several reasons (along with =
radium and=20
daughters) that answer the related question of why uranium =
minerals&nbsp;can be=20
far&nbsp;more radioactive than the refined metal. Another important =
factoid is=20
that this goes back to the "feature" of **induced radioactivity,** which =
for=20
lack of a better-known description will be labeled as =
gamma-multiplication or=20
IPE (induce photon emission). An element which is not radioactive in =
itself,=20
when placed in emission-field, will drastically multiply both the number =
of high=20
energy photons (which are downshifted) AND also multiply drastically the =
net=20
energy released by the total flux of downshifted photons.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>IPE&nbsp;is the key point to this =
speculative=20
essay, which goes beyond a strange metal, and perhaps an even stranger =
way to=20
possibly&nbsp;achieve overunity. Which details will appear in Part 2 of =
this.=20
BTW this putative OU would not necessarily be "free" energy, any more =
than=20
nuclear fission or fusion or LENR is "free". By that caveat, it is meant =
that an=20
unusual nuclear reaction is taking place. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Actually&nbsp;this class of =
reaction&nbsp;has been=20
minimally described in the literature, not as IPE but&nbsp;as IGE, or =
Induced=20
Gamma Emission (more prized by the DoD). Highly deformed nuclei are =
often=20
isomeric, and subject to IPE/IGE but in the case of Sc, all of the =
isotopes and=20
isomers appear to be metastable but of lower intensity than the military =
wants,=20
i.e. too "soft." &nbsp;IGE&nbsp;of the kind the military wants - results =
from=20
nuclear isomerism and induced secondary hard gamma emission. It has been =

described more fully in arcane journals. However, a slightly edited, =
possibly=20
misleading (either cleansed or from 'outsiders') is the online stuff, =
available=20
at: </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"http://www.utdallas.edu/research/quantum/cqeseg3.htm">http://www.=
utdallas.edu/research/quantum/cqeseg3.htm</A></FONT></DIV><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2>
<DIV><BR>Years ago, I posted some speculation about the inter-relation =
between=20
the Mossbauer effect and hydrino reactions. The Mossbauer effect itself =
was=20
hypothesized then to be a subset of a larger class of reactions that =
were=20
labeled as IPE- Induced Photon Emissions - which can cover both EUV, =
soft=20
x-rays&nbsp;and hard gammas.&nbsp;There are many who claim, =
off-the-record, that=20
what I am calling IPE technology has been at the heart of a DoD "black =
project"=20
for at least two decades.&nbsp;A little information has filtered through =
over=20
the years, not&nbsp;to mention we have the "death ray" meme, =
which&nbsp;has been=20
relegated to SciFi fantasy. Do not believe the fantasy part. And almost =
no=20
important new information on this subject has been forthcoming (even =
through the=20
cracks)&nbsp;since the &nbsp;9/11 aftermath... indicating that the =
so-called=20
"Patriot Act" is working well enough to stop the flow of vital =
information for=20
alternative energy, if any of that information should arguably also have =
any=20
possible terrorist or military&nbsp;implications. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>So be it. But in a perfect world of free-flowing information, more =
would be=20
known about IPE and metastability now, and the broader field might even =
end-up=20
having *precise relevance* to LENR or hydrino dynamics&nbsp;- this has =
not=20
happened yet. More on the connection to LENR&nbsp;in Part 2. However, to =
the=20
extent that when carefully controlled, the IPE methodology permits a new =
type of=20
nuclear meta-phenomenon to appear and self-perpetuate - a limited =
*photon chain=20
reaction* - that much is the key jumping-off point for a Scandium=20
soft&nbsp;x-ray multiplier.<BR><BR>More on this device in the context of =
IPE and=20
gamma multiplication in part 2 of this post. For now, anyone interested =
in this,=20
should study this important hot-linked chart:</DIV>
<DIV><BR><A=20
href=3D"http://ie.lbl.gov/xray/mainpage.htm">http://ie.lbl.gov/xray/mainp=
age.htm</A><BR><BR>There=20
are other elements like Xe (another is not shown), which are noteworthy, =
but Sc=20
can be said to be a singularity. Years ago, when I first chanced upon =
this=20
finding it was evident (to this perpetual optimist) that one narrow path =
to at=20
least a substantial source of "alternative energy" was on the horizon, =
based on=20
the strong anomaly. Even if this IPE&nbsp;anomaly does depend on =
radioactivity=20
high enough to frighten the Sierra club, it is likely that it should be =
useable,=20
but how? Sadly, it became clear from trying to interest others in this, =
even a=20
PhD in reactor design that many observers, even scientists, do not =
appreciate=20
the implications of this kind of information. Or else I'm reading too =
much into=20
it (most likely)&nbsp;but let me explain it in more detail, and you be =
your own=20
judge.<BR><BR>Discovering this the strange energy anomaly will involve =
the=20
effort of looking at many elements for comparative purposes from the =
chart=20
above: Look at the element Scandium, first (It is element 21 Sc). Pay =
close=20
attention to the scale on the left. Then compare Sc with all the other =
secondary=20
emitters in the periodic table.&nbsp;Unfortunately the input spectrum is =
not=20
shown for comparative purposes, but it is Americium at 5 MeV and the =
scale would=20
be two narrow blips in the range of a few 100 counts. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Imagine&nbsp;the possibilities of IGE in the context of "spent" =
reactor=20
fuel. If they are not intriguing, then my apologies for the long =
posting, and=20
the next one will be of even less interest, as it will build on this =
Scandium=20
IPE anomaly. I am just thankful that the Patriot&nbsp;Act "enforcers" =
have=20
overlooked this information (so far)....</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>...and even more thankful that Mendeleev demonstrated to us all the =
"magic"=20
predictive powers of a graphical 'structural arrangement' ....</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Jones<BR><BR><BR></DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_045F_01C5BE94.058385F0--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 21 10:25:38 2005
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From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: RE: Sponsorship request
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 18:24:49 +0100
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How insensitive of me.

-----Original Message-----
From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On
Behalf Of Wesley Bruce
Sent: 21 September 2005 14:49
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Sponsorship request

A rich city does not automatically make you a rich man. Cash flow 
problems and debts can make life miserable. Think of it as an 
investment. The nano people have research money to throw around. If we 
help out steven we might just find some coming our way. Hint hint. ;-)
R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk wrote:

> $895 s'nuthin. Pocket money. An editor living in Los Angeles in the 
> richest state in the richest country? If it was $8950 I could understand.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:* vortex-l-request eskimo.com 
> [mailto:vortex-l-request eskimo.com] *On Behalf Of *RC Macaulay
> *Sent:* 21 September 2005 02:28
> *To:* vortex-l eskimo.com
> *Subject:* Re: Sponsorship request
>
> Believe it is possible for the members of the Vorts group to share the 
> costs of this conference by each ponying up 25 to 50 bucks via check 
> in lieu of a pledge and sending the money to the New Energy Institute now.
>
> Surely Steven has demonstrated his work and concern for new energy. It 
> is important for all to assist him.
>
> Richard
>
>     ----- Original Message -----
>
>     *From:* Steven Krivit <mailto:steven newenergytimes.com>
>
>     *To:* vortex-l eskimo.com <mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com>
>
>     *Sent:* Monday, September 19, 2005 3:16 PM
>
>     *Subject:* Sponsorship request
>
>     Dear Vo,
>
>     A few days ago, I received notice that my abstract, /"How Can Cold
>     Fusion Be Real, Considering It Was Disproved By Several
>     Well-Respected Laboratories in 1989?", /was accepted for oral
>     presentation at the International Congress of Nanotechnology,
>     which will be held on October 31-November 4, 2005 in San Francisco.
>
>     It was actually someone here on Vortex that first alerted me to
>     this conference several months ago. I contacted the organizers and
>     told them that there were some interesting relationships between
>     CF and NANO, and asked if they would like to know more.
>
>     I am looking for financial sponsorship for this project. The
>     travel and conference fee costs total $895.
>
>     The mission of this project, as with my recent ICENES
>     presentation, is to help bridge the gap between the cold fusion
>     community and the rest of the scientific community and science media .
>
>     I received a pledge today of $350 from one sponsor, and I am
>     looking for a pledge(s) to cover the remaining $545. Most likely,
>     donations at this time to New Energy Institute Inc. will be
>     tax-deductible, though I cannot guarantee such. I expect to
>     receive the determination letter from the IRS within two months.
>
>     The written paper is due by the end of this week and I would place
>     notice of sponsorship on the paper, as well as the presentation.
>
>     If you are able to help, please reply OFF-LIST.
>
>     Thank you.
>
>
>     Steven B. Krivit
>     Editor, New Energy Times
>     Executive Director, New Energy Institute Inc.
>     */NEW <http://www.newenergytimes.com/> ENERGY TIMES
>     <http://www.newenergytimes.com/>/*
>     */Your best source for cold fusion news and information.
>
>     /*11664 National Blvd. Suite 142
>     Los Angeles, California, USA 90064
>     www.newenergytimes.com <http://www.newenergytimes.com/>
>     Cell phone: (310) 721-5919
>     Office Phone: (310) 470-8189
>     Fax: (432) 577-3630
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 21 10:43:55 2005
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From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: FW: Tesla Automobile
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 18:41:51 +0100
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Der, did it again.

-----Original Message-----
From: Cornwall Remi 
Sent: 21 September 2005 18:37
To: 'michael.foster excite.com'
Subject: RE: Tesla Automobile

Ok so your premise is to form O3 which is highly oxidative. Cramming more
into the cylinders via super or turbo-charger is similar but beware damage
to your pride and joy. You might have to use a colder grade of spark plug
(they conduct heat away from the electrode more quickly) or you could burn a
hole in your cylinder. Other matters are valve seats and the increased
output may increase wear and tear on other components like the clutch and
drivetrain. 

I'm no expert but I seem to remember reading such about converting cars
years ago.

Good idea. I believe a similar scheme was considered at the other end to
burn off HC without the need for one of those stoopid cat things, which I've
just shattered in my car because of a misfire - > £200 for the cat alone not
the labour.

I'm really sorry to hear that more storms/hurricanes are headed US way. I
know Galveston and Houston. Putting down to global warming is like a radical
muslim clerk putting down to an act of Allah. Just how do you prove it or do
you live in fear?
Regards.

-----Original Message-----
From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On
Behalf Of Michael Foster
Sent: 21 September 2005 17:20
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Tesla Automobile


No, not that one.  I tried this about five years ago.  And now,
given the present situation, I think it deserves a second 
look.  I sometimes try things for no rational reason.  It's a
compulsion.  I can't help myself.

Anyway, maybe someone else should try this out.  I hooked
up one of those old commercial hand-held Tesla coils to an
inverter in my car.  I normally use these for starting balky
ion lasers.  The output of the coil was connected to a wire
mesh screen over the air intake.  I took care not to let the
current short out to the metal in the engine.

My half-baked idea was that the the high voltage, high
frequency discharge would somehow ionize the air, including
the expected ozone, to produce more complete combustion in
the engine.  How naive is that?

Well now, the results were somewhat better than I expected.
The power increase was really noticeable.  Believe me, the
way I drive, I'm just the person to notice it.  After four days of 
driving I had what appears to have been a more than 30%
increase in gas (petrol to you, Remi) mileage.  I would have
continued the test longer, but the damn coil burnt out.  I only
have one more of these and I need it for my work.  

I wouldn't have gone on too much longer just because I didn't
know if I was doing engine damage, violating emission
standards, rotting the rubber, etc., etc.  The unanswered 
question is, does it really work?  This would take more of a
double-blind test to verify.  I could have been unconciously
light-footing the accelerator, or changing some other driving
habit.  However, I don't think I would have seen quite that
much of an effect.

I hesitated even to mention this, because it sounds something
like one of those late-night infomercials.  And you can just
imagine what those boneheads are brewing up given the 
present fuel price situation.  You know, something like, "Get
80 mpg in your Cadillac Escalade by inserting this POS in
your cell phone."

Maybe a more adventurous soul could do something
with this.  What if it really works?  Am I beginning to sound
like Ron Popeil?  Makes julliene fries!  What are julliene
fries?

M.




_______________________________________________
Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
The most personalized portal on the Web!


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Vo,
Herman Bondi has died
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cambridgeshire/4255806.stm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/science/


Why not try this excellent mini-series by David Attenborough on the Aquatic
Ape hypothesis. Excellent account of the scientific method and how an
amateur is coming up against the establishment to prove them wrong. You can
listen to it via the links. The second program was really good.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/science/scarsofevolution.shtml




.......................................
Website
http://luna.bton.ac.uk/~roc1
.......................................

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Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 13:58:41 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: Plagarism By Cold Fusion Times
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We are tired of Mr. Coviello's libel and selective memory.
Here is our response to his libel.

BACKGROUND:
Mr. John Coviello is enraged that we excerpted his publicly posted review
of the MIT Colloquium, which was posted on s.p.f., a public forum
AND edited with corrections in part by ourselves at least twice per his 
requests
(not attributed by him, but proven below by email excerpts).

THE FACTS:
1. The Cold Fusion Times  DID give Mr. Coviello full attribution by name
above the edited excerpt, as he admits.
Nonetheless, he continues public libel against the COLD FUSION TIMES
with purported claims of plagiarism (which he misspells as "plagarism" (sic)).

2) We actually helped Mr. Coviello in his paper and he acknowledged it by 
email - twice (A, and B),
and once on vortex in a public posting (C)

A)  Here  Mr. Coviello acknowledges our first correction of his draft 
report which
he publicly posted to spf and vortex.

------------ first email from Mr. Coviello to Dr. Swartz thanking Dr. Swartz
   for helping him by correcting errors in Coviello's article -----------------
From: "John Coviello" <johnwc patmedia.net>
To: "Mitchell Swartz" <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: MIT Cold Fusion Symposium
Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 11:17:06 -0400
"Mr. Swartz,
Sorry,  you're right, it was Prof. Peter Hagelstein.  I had written the 
note about the iesiusa.com company in the column next to my notes on your 
conference comments.  I do want to get it right who said what.  I have 
heard of iesiusa.com before.  Not sure what to think of them?!?  Being from 
Las Vegas, NV kind makes me take pause.  That is a town that is rife with 
swindlers and con artists.  I've also heard of plenty of predictions of 
imminent commercial developments in cold fusion and other exotic energy 
fields, and knowing the tract record, I'll take a wait and see approach on 
this one.  I kind of miss being young and naive about these things.  But, 
age makes you wiser and more cautious.  John C."
------------end of  email from Mr. Coviello to Dr. Swartz thanking Dr. Swartz
   for helping him by correcting errors in Coviello's article -----------------

B) Here Mr. Coviello makes a second acknowledgement of our corrections to 
his draft report which
he publicly posted to spf and vortex.   Mr. Coviello requested this 
additional help by
asking several questions by email.
------------ second email from Mr. Coviello to Dr. Swartz thanking Dr. Swartz
   for helping him by correcting errors in Coviello's article -----------------
From: "John Coviello" <johnwc patmedia.net>
To: "Mitchell Swartz" <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: Question for MIT CF Article,
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 19:39:22 -0400
"Mr. Schwartz, Thanks for the quick response to my questions.  They will be 
helpful in writing the article for NET (which will come out with the July 
10th newsletter).
I'm sorry, I did not mean to step on anyone's toes with my statement below. 
I certainly didn't think you were trying to prevent a discussion about cold 
fusion.  I did get to ask two questions during the colloquium, as did 
others.  But, the program did say that a panel discussion session called 
"Future Developments in Cold Fusion" would be held, and it was not.  It 
seemed as if the non-cold fusion presenters took up the time that could 
have been used for such an important panel discussion.  The diversion to 
non-cold fusion topics did, in essence, prevent such a discussion from 
occurring during the colloquium.
I did enjoy the colloquium very much and appreciate your efforts in 
organizing it.  I look forward to attending the 2nd colloquium later this 
year and having an opportunity to ask more questions.  I am also very happy 
to read today that they have finally charged someone with the murder of Dr. 
Mallove and his family might be able to bring closure regarding his passing.
Sincerely, John Coviello"
------------end of  second email from Mr. Coviello to Dr. Swartz thanking 
Dr. Swartz
   for helping him by correcting errors in Coviello's article -----------------


C)  Here the ingrate Mr. Coviello acknowledges to vortex our meticulous 
correction to his draft report.
NOTE: Ironically, Mr. Coviello failed to attribute from where he actually 
got the correction.
----------- public post by Mr. Coviello to vortex after receiving from Dr. 
Swartz corrections of his errors -----------------
From: "John Coviello" <johnwc patmedia.net>
To: "Vortex" <vortex-L eskimo.com>
Subject: The Proposed Mallove Cold Fusion Unit
Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 09:55:34 -0400
"I hastly posted a description of the proposed Mallove Cold Fusion unit 
last night.  Here's a more thorough description of the Mallove unit, as 
proposed by Dr. Schwartz:
The "Mallove" is a proposed unit to describe the height/width of the 
optimal operating points which appears to describe most (if not all) cold 
fusion systems and their products.  The optimal operating points are seen 
when the product is plotted as function of input electrical power.  They 
peak is where each system should be (optimally) operated.
The Arata data, described by Russ George, and then shown in optimal 
operating point fashion by me, is characterized by a "19 Mallove" optimal 
operating point indicating a very high, very narrow peak.
The helium-4 and heat production data of Pd/D2O have "4 Mallove" and "5 
Mallove" opimal operating points indicating that these are less narrow, but 
still important peaks of system operation along the input electrical power 
axis."
----------- end of public post by Mr. Coviello to vortex using details he 
received from Dr. Swartz -----------------


SUMMARY:
Despite Mr. Coviello's libel of "plagarism(sic)", we gave full attribution 
to Mr. Coviello,
who thereafter has libelled us claiming plagiarism when in fact we gave him 
full attribution
AND helped him twice compose his review.

Incidentally, we also offered to add Mr. Krivit's name in the next issue 
and send him
email asking what his contribution was to Coviello's review (because
Krivit did not attend the CF Colloquium, and for him to review it would
be tantamount to fraud.)   Mr. Krivit has NEVER returned the private email 
sent to him about this matter.
Instead, Mr. Krivit has posted:
------------------------ Krivit posting -----------------------------------
"It was a collaborative piece. As editor, I worked extensively with John on 
it. ....
So when we don't get any credit or recognition for it appearing 
elsewhere...that's the part that really sucks."
Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 19:42:48 -0700
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Steven Krivit <steven newenergytimes.com>
------------------------ end of Krivit posting 
-----------------------------------

In summary, as shown above, many of the corrections were FROM US,
and we did not get any credit from Krivit OR Coviello about OUR significant
factual corrections to Coviello's multiple important errors in the initial 
drafts of his reports
  (nor did we expect it BTW since helping someone previously seemed the 
right thing to do).

CONCLUSION:
As a result of this matter, the COLD FUSION TIMES in the next issue will 
cover Coviello's libel
against our periodical [which has labored for 12 years for the cold fusion 
community at a financial loss]
as well as the disruption-attempt by his partner which almost led to the 
cancellation
of the MIT Colloquium made to Honor Dr. Eugene Mallove [and was never 
discussed publicly previously].

We are truly sorry that we elected to try to help Coviello gain recognition 
in the cold fusion community
and that we bothered to lift a finger to help correct his many factual 
errors in his draft reports.




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 21 11:02:34 2005
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Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 14:01:25 -0400
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From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Libel and plagiarism by John Coviello
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We are tired of Mr. Coviello's libel and selective memory.
Here is our response to his libel.

BACKGROUND:
Mr. John Coviello is enraged that we excerpted his publicly posted review
of the MIT Colloquium, which was posted on s.p.f., a public forum
AND edited with corrections in part by ourselves at least twice per his 
requests
(not attributed by him, but proven below by email excerpts).

THE FACTS:
1. The Cold Fusion Times  DID give Mr. Coviello full attribution by name
above the edited excerpt, as he admits.
Nonetheless, he continues public libel against the COLD FUSION TIMES
with purported claims of plagiarism (which he misspells as "plagarism" (sic)).

2) We actually helped Mr. Coviello in his paper and he acknowledged it by 
email - twice (A, and B),
and once on vortex in a public posting (C)

A)  Here  Mr. Coviello acknowledges our first correction of his draft 
report which
he publicly posted to spf and vortex.

------------ first email from Mr. Coviello to Dr. Swartz thanking Dr. Swartz
   for helping him by correcting errors in Coviello's article -----------------
From: "John Coviello" <johnwc patmedia.net>
To: "Mitchell Swartz" <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: MIT Cold Fusion Symposium
Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 11:17:06 -0400
"Mr. Swartz,
Sorry,  you're right, it was Prof. Peter Hagelstein.  I had written the 
note about the iesiusa.com company in the column next to my notes on your 
conference comments.  I do want to get it right who said what.  I have 
heard of iesiusa.com before.  Not sure what to think of them?!?  Being from 
Las Vegas, NV kind makes me take pause.  That is a town that is rife with 
swindlers and con artists.  I've also heard of plenty of predictions of 
imminent commercial developments in cold fusion and other exotic energy 
fields, and knowing the tract record, I'll take a wait and see approach on 
this one.  I kind of miss being young and naive about these things.  But, 
age makes you wiser and more cautious.  John C."
------------end of  email from Mr. Coviello to Dr. Swartz thanking Dr. Swartz
   for helping him by correcting errors in Coviello's article -----------------

B) Here Mr. Coviello makes a second acknowledgement of our corrections to 
his draft report which
he publicly posted to spf and vortex.   Mr. Coviello requested this 
additional help by
asking several questions by email.
------------ second email from Mr. Coviello to Dr. Swartz thanking Dr. Swartz
   for helping him by correcting errors in Coviello's article -----------------
From: "John Coviello" <johnwc patmedia.net>
To: "Mitchell Swartz" <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: Question for MIT CF Article,
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 19:39:22 -0400
"Mr. Schwartz, Thanks for the quick response to my questions.  They will be 
helpful in writing the article for NET (which will come out with the July 
10th newsletter).
I'm sorry, I did not mean to step on anyone's toes with my statement below. 
I certainly didn't think you were trying to prevent a discussion about cold 
fusion.  I did get to ask two questions during the colloquium, as did 
others.  But, the program did say that a panel discussion session called 
"Future Developments in Cold Fusion" would be held, and it was not.  It 
seemed as if the non-cold fusion presenters took up the time that could 
have been used for such an important panel discussion.  The diversion to 
non-cold fusion topics did, in essence, prevent such a discussion from 
occurring during the colloquium.
I did enjoy the colloquium very much and appreciate your efforts in 
organizing it.  I look forward to attending the 2nd colloquium later this 
year and having an opportunity to ask more questions.  I am also very happy 
to read today that they have finally charged someone with the murder of Dr. 
Mallove and his family might be able to bring closure regarding his passing.
Sincerely, John Coviello"
------------end of  second email from Mr. Coviello to Dr. Swartz thanking 
Dr. Swartz
   for helping him by correcting errors in Coviello's article -----------------


C)  Here the ingrate Mr. Coviello acknowledges to vortex our meticulous 
correction to his draft report.
====>  NOTE: Ironically, Mr. Coviello failed to attribute from where he 
actually got the correction.
----------- public post by Mr. Coviello to vortex after receiving from Dr. 
Swartz corrections of his errors -----------------
From: "John Coviello" <johnwc patmedia.net>
To: "Vortex" <vortex-L eskimo.com>
Subject: The Proposed Mallove Cold Fusion Unit
Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 09:55:34 -0400
"I hastly posted a description of the proposed Mallove Cold Fusion unit 
last night.  Here's a more thorough description of the Mallove unit, as 
proposed by Dr. Schwartz:
The "Mallove" is a proposed unit to describe the height/width of the 
optimal operating points which appears to describe most (if not all) cold 
fusion systems and their products.  The optimal operating points are seen 
when the product is plotted as function of input electrical power.  They 
peak is where each system should be (optimally) operated.
The Arata data, described by Russ George, and then shown in optimal 
operating point fashion by me, is characterized by a "19 Mallove" optimal 
operating point indicating a very high, very narrow peak.
The helium-4 and heat production data of Pd/D2O have "4 Mallove" and "5 
Mallove" opimal operating points indicating that these are less narrow, but 
still important peaks of system operation along the input electrical power 
axis."
----------- end of public post by Mr. Coviello to vortex using details he 
received from Dr. Swartz -----------------


SUMMARY:
Despite Mr. Coviello's libel of "plagarism(sic)", we gave full attribution 
to Mr. Coviello,
who thereafter has libelled us claiming plagiarism when in fact we gave him 
full attribution
AND helped him twice compose his review.

Incidentally, we also offered to add Mr. Krivit's name in the next issue 
and send him
email asking what his contribution was to Coviello's review (because
Krivit did not attend the CF Colloquium, and for him to review it would
be tantamount to fraud.)   Mr. Krivit has NEVER returned the private email 
sent to him about this matter.
Instead, Mr. Krivit has posted:
------------------------ Krivit posting -----------------------------------
"It was a collaborative piece. As editor, I worked extensively with John on 
it. ....
So when we don't get any credit or recognition for it appearing 
elsewhere...that's the part that really sucks."
Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 19:42:48 -0700
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Steven Krivit <steven newenergytimes.com>
------------------------ end of Krivit posting 
-----------------------------------

=====>  In summary, as shown above, many of the corrections were FROM US,
and we did not get any credit from Krivit OR Coviello about OUR significant
factual corrections to Coviello's multiple important errors in the initial 
drafts of his reports
  (nor did we expect it BTW since helping someone previously seemed the 
right thing to do).

CONCLUSION:
As a result of this matter, the COLD FUSION TIMES in the next issue will 
cover Coviello's libel
against our periodical [which has labored for 12 years for the cold fusion 
community at a financial loss]
as well as the disruption-attempt by his partner which almost led to the 
cancellation
of the MIT Colloquium made to Honor Dr. Eugene Mallove [and was never 
discussed publicly previously].

We are truly sorry that we elected to try to help Coviello gain recognition 
in the cold fusion community
and that we bothered to lift a finger to help correct his many factual 
errors in his draft reports.




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 21 11:24:14 2005
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Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 19:23:08 +0100
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Grimer <f.grimer grimer2.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: "Suppression In Science" by Rochus Boerner
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At 10:21 am 21/09/2005 -0400, Jed wrote:
> See:
>
> http://www.world-mysteries.com/sci_supr.htm
>
> Nothing you have not heard before . . .


True. But it's nice to have it all in one place. 8-)
Thanks for that Jed. Very useful.

Frank Grimer

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 21 11:31:29 2005
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Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 11:27:36 -0700
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Steven Krivit <steven newenergytimes.com>
Subject: RE: Sponsorship request
In-Reply-To: <BE76853CB39E3B47B014207F18386A8F13FE8EDE moulsecoomb.bton.
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This nano opportunity came up more or less at the last minute and it was a 
surprise to me because I never sent in an official abstract. The 2-week 
delta between acceptance and due date made it challenging to get quick 
funding to support this project. I had a quarterly budget in place, which 
is/was extremely tight and did not have the foresight to plan for 
contingencies such as this.

s

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 21 11:35:09 2005
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$170 left to go

s

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 21 12:36:15 2005
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Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 20:34:45 +0100
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From: Grimer <f.grimer grimer2.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: "Suppression In Science" by Rochus Boerner
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I thought this was rather interesting light on the 
relationship between supporters of *heresies*, such 
as CF, and the mainstream scientific establishment.

     ===============================================
     Resentment against the informer and secret 
     agent is not only a matter of historical 
     memory. Any organized society is intolerant 
     of those who set themselves apart from the 
     prevailing norms. Any group's major rewards 
     are reserved for those who most wholeheartedly 
     accept and most vigorously personify the 
     group's ideals. Psychologists, sociologists 
     and philosophers have abundantly remarked the 
     similarity between the position of the artist 
     and that of the criminal in any society. What 
     the two have in common is the fact that they 
     set themselves apart from society; they are by 
     nature sceptical of its ideals, of its morals 
     and interests; they arrogate to themselves the 
     right to reject the established code and to 
     live by their own. It is human nature to resent 
     such independence, even arrogance. 
     This resentment is the price the artist pays 
     for the independent point of view which nourishes 
     his art; punishment, the active expression of 
     this resentment, is the price the criminal pays 
     for his attempt to achieve the society's aims by 
     asocial means. 
     ===============================================

Cheers,

Frank Grimer

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 21 13:47:16 2005
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Battery capacity for electric autos, practical concerns
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It is fun to think about how machines might work in the future. I will let 
someone else work out the kilowatt hour and amperage details. Here are some 
other ideas about this subject.

OrionWorks wrote:

>I seem to recall Mike Carrell once cautioning the Vort readership of the 
>fact that there is a practical limit as to how fast batteries can be 
>recharged. Pushing too much juice within a finite amount of time could 
>cause our auto batteries to vaporize.

The latest Japanese electric car prototypes can be recharged 90% in five 
minutes. I gather that a 15 minute charging time will be possible without 
undue stress or heat.

I do not recall Mike Carrell describing exploding batteries, but I recall 
that he pointed out that a highway charging station that handles a dozen 
automobiles would draw a terrific surge of power. I have an idea about that.

When millions of electric cars are manufactured, the price of batteries 
will fall, and reliability and capacity will increase. A charging station 
may be equipped with a large "battery of batteries" to act as a buffer. 
Power companies use giant batteries now for load balancing. Power companies 
may even want to make arrangements with highway charging stations to have 
the stations act as load balancers, feeding power back into the system on 
demand.

So I was thinking to myself, you drive into a power station and electricity 
is transferred from a stationary battery to your car battery. On the face 
of it, it would make more sense to simply swap out the batteries. Put a 
fully charged battery in your car, and leave the discharged one behind to 
be recharged at leisure. This scheme has been proposed many times since the 
1960s, and I have often mentioned it here. I recall a drawing in Life 
Magazine (or Popular Mechanics) showing life in the future, with a forklift 
removing a tray of batteries from a car, swapping them out for a new set. 
Mike Carrell thought this would be impractical because of ownership issues: 
Who would own the battery? Who is responsible for defects? What do you do 
with old batteries?

I think this scheme might work if batteries are treated the way barbecue 
grill propane gas tanks are today. You would rent them. They would belong 
to the power company, or possibly to the power station chain. But you could 
rent a battery at QTrip and return it to BP Power, and no one would care. 
They would have elaborate electronic bookkeeping to keep track of 
batteries, with barcodes and RFID tags. This is what is done on railroads, 
where freight cars from different railway lines and private corporations 
are mixed up together to form a train. A car from the Union Pacific 
Railroad might spend months on a Southern Railway line.

But anyway, let us assume people do not want to do this. Or assume it is 
mechanically unwieldy to change out the battery pack. Even in that case, 
after you recharge, it would be nice to drive off carrying one of those 
large, fresh stationary batteries from the charging station. That would 
extend the range of your car. And why not? Maybe the charge station can 
offer something like a small U-Haul trailer, that you attach to the back of 
your car and pull along. The trailer would contain a huge battery, or 
perhaps a 20 kW gasoline-powered generator. In other words, you would 
temporarily convert the car into a hybrid. When you reach the end of the 
trip, you pull into another U-Haul Power Supply dealer and return the unit. 
This would reduce the efficiency of the car but it would greatly extend the 
range.

Even if gasoline costs $10 per gallon it might be worth it to use it to use 
a gasoline generator U-Haul Power Supply on rare occasions when you take 
very long trips. After all, gasoline will not run out completely worldwide, 
and we can always synthesize it or use biofuels. If gasoline is only used 
on long trips with the U-haul power supply, only a little would be consumed.

For many years, people have been saying that electric cars are not 
practical in the US because consumers are used to having a 500 mile range, 
or they are used to refilling quickly, or for various other reasons. Much 
of this boils down to attitude, expectation, and what you are used to. For 
example, Americans are used to leaving on a trip whenever they feel like 
it, without a schedule. They might find it annoying to travel by railroad 
in Japan, where you have to arrive at the station on time or you miss the 
train. On the other hand, I find it annoying to be delayed by a traffic jam 
on a highway. I prefer predictable travel, when you know the arrival time 
and you can make plans. Delays are rare on a Japanese railroad. (I recall 
only one serious delay, when a kid got a kite tangled in the overhead wire 
on the Shinkansen. The kid was fine.) Problems that you are used to, such 
as traffic jams, do not bother you, whereas you notice novel limitations 
and problems, such as having to abide by someone else's schedule. In the 
case of an electric car, you will notice having to wait 15 minutes for the 
car to fully recharge. If we had been using electric cars for decades, we 
would hardly notice this delay, and it would not bother us any more than it 
bothers me to wait on a railroad platform when I arrive 15 minutes before 
departure time. We might even feel that gasoline-powered cars refill too 
quickly, which does not give you enough time to go to the bathroom or get 
some exercise.

OrionWorks wonders:

>I'm also curious as to how efficient the recharging process itself is. How 
>much energy is simply lost as unrecoverable heat?

Circa 1990 it was ~30% and it is probably ~20% with advanced batteries 
today. See p. 16 of this document:

http://lenr-canr.org/EnergyOverview.pdf

- Jed


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Subject: Re: Scandium, IPE and overunity, Part 1
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 15:53:56 -0500
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Jones,
I have always pictured Scandium like  Perlite. Perlite is volcanic sand =
dropped through a popcorn popper that explodes the sand particle into a =
"popcorn" lightweight substance.. used in concrete to reduce weigh and =
of all things .. cat litter. Why look at Scandium this way? Because it =
resembles something outside the box that should be inside the box. No =
exit scars or marks to clue how it could happen or get there.. must have =
given Mendeleev a few sleepless night wondering if he should mention it =
or just try to play dumb. To me, the element stands alongside another =
wierd element that surely puzzles Grimer.=20
Science has the one feature Disney wants.. the more you learn ,the less =
you know. but it becomes addictive.
Please continue, pull out all the stops.

Richard
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Jones Beene=20
  To: vortex=20
  Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2005 12:05 PM
  Subject: Scandium, IPE and overunity, Part 1


  Scandium is one of the least-appreciated elements in the periodic =
table. Understandable... since the entire US production last year would =
fit into a briefcase.

  Mendeleev, of periodic table acclaim - while demonstrating the "magic" =
predictive powers of a graphical 'structural arrangement' - actually =
foretold the existence of the unknown element - he called it "ekaboron," =
(later Sc) which would have an atomic weight between 40 of calcium and =
48 of titanium. He did this long before what became known as Scandium =
was discovered by Nilson in 1878.=20

  Importantly, Scandium is a much more abundant element in the sun and =
stars than here on earth. It is about the 23rd most abundant element in =
the sun, compared to the 50th most abundant on earth (or less). The =
possible reason for that important factoid will perhaps flow from one =
other seldom mentioned feature of this most remarkable element. Its =
nucleus is metastable and structurally deformed. In a stellar nova, =
almost all of it is consumed preferentially because of this =
metastability. However, what little is left may be of high importance =
(and earthly value) if we ever intend to get away from petro-dependence.

  Fortunately, Sc is widely distributed on earth, but occurring in very =
minute quantities in 800 mineral species. We could, if warranted, =
drastically increase the production (and lower the enormous present =
price). Scandium is presently being recovered from uranium mill =
tailings. BTW this is one of several reasons (along with radium and =
daughters) that answer the related question of why uranium minerals can =
be far more radioactive than the refined metal. Another important =
factoid is that this goes back to the "feature" of **induced =
radioactivity,** which for lack of a better-known description will be =
labeled as gamma-multiplication or IPE (induce photon emission). An =
element which is not radioactive in itself, when placed in =
emission-field, will drastically multiply both the number of high energy =
photons (which are downshifted) AND also multiply drastically the net =
energy released by the total flux of downshifted photons.

  IPE is the key point to this speculative essay, which goes beyond a =
strange metal, and perhaps an even stranger way to possibly achieve =
overunity. Which details will appear in Part 2 of this. BTW this =
putative OU would not necessarily be "free" energy, any more than =
nuclear fission or fusion or LENR is "free". By that caveat, it is meant =
that an unusual nuclear reaction is taking place.=20

  Actually this class of reaction has been minimally described in the =
literature, not as IPE but as IGE, or Induced Gamma Emission (more =
prized by the DoD). Highly deformed nuclei are often isomeric, and =
subject to IPE/IGE but in the case of Sc, all of the isotopes and =
isomers appear to be metastable but of lower intensity than the military =
wants, i.e. too "soft."  IGE of the kind the military wants - results =
from nuclear isomerism and induced secondary hard gamma emission. It has =
been described more fully in arcane journals. However, a slightly =
edited, possibly misleading (either cleansed or from 'outsiders') is the =
online stuff, available at:=20
  http://www.utdallas.edu/research/quantum/cqeseg3.htm

  Years ago, I posted some speculation about the inter-relation between =
the Mossbauer effect and hydrino reactions. The Mossbauer effect itself =
was hypothesized then to be a subset of a larger class of reactions that =
were labeled as IPE- Induced Photon Emissions - which can cover both =
EUV, soft x-rays and hard gammas. There are many who claim, =
off-the-record, that what I am calling IPE technology has been at the =
heart of a DoD "black project" for at least two decades. A little =
information has filtered through over the years, not to mention we have =
the "death ray" meme, which has been relegated to SciFi fantasy. Do not =
believe the fantasy part. And almost no important new information on =
this subject has been forthcoming (even through the cracks) since the  =
9/11 aftermath... indicating that the so-called "Patriot Act" is working =
well enough to stop the flow of vital information for alternative =
energy, if any of that information should arguably also have any =
possible terrorist or military implications.=20

  So be it. But in a perfect world of free-flowing information, more =
would be known about IPE and metastability now, and the broader field =
might even end-up having *precise relevance* to LENR or hydrino dynamics =
- this has not happened yet. More on the connection to LENR in Part 2. =
However, to the extent that when carefully controlled, the IPE =
methodology permits a new type of nuclear meta-phenomenon to appear and =
self-perpetuate - a limited *photon chain reaction* - that much is the =
key jumping-off point for a Scandium soft x-ray multiplier.

  More on this device in the context of IPE and gamma multiplication in =
part 2 of this post. For now, anyone interested in this, should study =
this important hot-linked chart:

  http://ie.lbl.gov/xray/mainpage.htm

  There are other elements like Xe (another is not shown), which are =
noteworthy, but Sc can be said to be a singularity. Years ago, when I =
first chanced upon this finding it was evident (to this perpetual =
optimist) that one narrow path to at least a substantial source of =
"alternative energy" was on the horizon, based on the strong anomaly. =
Even if this IPE anomaly does depend on radioactivity high enough to =
frighten the Sierra club, it is likely that it should be useable, but =
how? Sadly, it became clear from trying to interest others in this, even =
a PhD in reactor design that many observers, even scientists, do not =
appreciate the implications of this kind of information. Or else I'm =
reading too much into it (most likely) but let me explain it in more =
detail, and you be your own judge.

  Discovering this the strange energy anomaly will involve the effort of =
looking at many elements for comparative purposes from the chart above: =
Look at the element Scandium, first (It is element 21 Sc). Pay close =
attention to the scale on the left. Then compare Sc with all the other =
secondary emitters in the periodic table. Unfortunately the input =
spectrum is not shown for comparative purposes, but it is Americium at 5 =
MeV and the scale would be two narrow blips in the range of a few 100 =
counts.=20

  Imagine the possibilities of IGE in the context of "spent" reactor =
fuel. If they are not intriguing, then my apologies for the long =
posting, and the next one will be of even less interest, as it will =
build on this Scandium IPE anomaly. I am just thankful that the Patriot =
Act "enforcers" have overlooked this information (so far)....

  ...and even more thankful that Mendeleev demonstrated to us all the =
"magic" predictive powers of a graphical 'structural arrangement' ....

  Jones



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<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
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<STYLE></STYLE>
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff background=3D"">
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana size=3D2>Jones,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana size=3D2>I have always pictured Scandium =
like&nbsp;=20
Perlite. Perlite is volcanic sand dropped through a popcorn popper that =
explodes=20
the sand particle into a "popcorn" lightweight substance.. used in =
concrete to=20
reduce weigh and of all things .. cat litter. Why look at Scandium this =
way?=20
Because it resembles something outside the box that should be inside the =
box. No=20
exit scars or marks to clue how it could happen or get there.. must have =
given=20
Mendeleev a few sleepless night wondering if he should mention it or =
just try to=20
play dumb. To me, the element stands alongside another wierd element =
that surely=20
puzzles Grimer. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana size=3D2>Science has the one feature Disney =
wants.. the=20
more you learn&nbsp;,the less you know. but it becomes =
addictive.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana size=3D2>Please continue, pull out all the=20
stops.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana size=3D2>Richard</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3Djonesb9 pacbell.net =
href=3D"mailto:jonesb9 pacbell.net">Jones Beene</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dvortex-l eskimo.com=20
  href=3D"mailto:vortex-l eskimo.com">vortex</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, September 21, =
2005 12:05=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Scandium, IPE and =
overunity,=20
  Part 1</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Scandium is one of the =
least-appreciated elements=20
  in the periodic table. Understandable... since the entire US =
production last=20
  year would fit into a briefcase.<BR><BR>Mendeleev, of periodic table =
acclaim -=20
  while demonstrating the "magic" predictive powers of a graphical =
'structural=20
  arrangement' - actually foretold the existence of&nbsp;the unknown =
element -=20
  he called it "ekaboron," (later Sc) which would have an atomic weight =
between=20
  40 of calcium and 48 of titanium. He did this&nbsp;long before what =
became=20
  known as Scandium was discovered by Nilson in 1878. =
<BR><BR>Importantly,=20
  Scandium is a much more abundant element in the sun and stars than =
here on=20
  earth. It is about the 23rd most abundant element in the sun, compared =
to the=20
  50th most abundant on earth (or less). The possible reason for that =
important=20
  factoid will perhaps flow from one other seldom mentioned feature of =
this most=20
  remarkable element. Its nucleus is metastable and structurally=20
  deformed.&nbsp;In a stellar nova, almost all of it is consumed =
preferentially=20
  because of this metastability. However, what little is left may be of =
high=20
  importance (and earthly value) if we ever intend to get away from=20
  petro-dependence.<BR><BR>Fortunately, Sc is widely distributed on =
earth, but=20
  occurring in very minute quantities in 800 mineral species. We could, =
if=20
  warranted, drastically increase the production (and lower the enormous =
present=20
  price). Scandium is presently being recovered from uranium mill =
tailings. BTW=20
  this&nbsp;is one of several reasons (along with radium and daughters) =
that=20
  answer the related question of why uranium minerals&nbsp;can be =
far&nbsp;more=20
  radioactive than the refined metal. Another important factoid is that =
this=20
  goes back to the "feature" of **induced radioactivity,** which for =
lack of a=20
  better-known description will be labeled as gamma-multiplication or =
IPE=20
  (induce photon emission). An element which is not radioactive in =
itself, when=20
  placed in emission-field, will drastically multiply both the number of =
high=20
  energy photons (which are downshifted) AND also multiply drastically =
the net=20
  energy released by the total flux of downshifted photons.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>IPE&nbsp;is the key point to this =
speculative=20
  essay, which goes beyond a strange metal, and perhaps an even stranger =
way to=20
  possibly&nbsp;achieve overunity. Which details will appear in Part 2 =
of this.=20
  BTW this putative OU would not necessarily be "free" energy, any more =
than=20
  nuclear fission or fusion or LENR is "free". By that caveat, it is =
meant that=20
  an unusual nuclear reaction is taking place. </FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Actually&nbsp;this class of =
reaction&nbsp;has=20
  been minimally described in the literature, not as IPE but&nbsp;as =
IGE, or=20
  Induced Gamma Emission (more prized by the DoD). Highly deformed =
nuclei are=20
  often isomeric, and subject to IPE/IGE but in the case of Sc, all of =
the=20
  isotopes and isomers appear to be metastable but of lower intensity =
than the=20
  military wants, i.e. too "soft." &nbsp;IGE&nbsp;of the kind the =
military wants=20
  - results from nuclear isomerism and induced secondary hard gamma =
emission. It=20
  has been described more fully in arcane journals. However, a slightly =
edited,=20
  possibly misleading (either cleansed or from 'outsiders') is the =
online stuff,=20
  available at: </FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><A=20
  =
href=3D"http://www.utdallas.edu/research/quantum/cqeseg3.htm">http://www.=
utdallas.edu/research/quantum/cqeseg3.htm</A></FONT></DIV><FONT=20
  face=3DArial size=3D2>
  <DIV><BR>Years ago, I posted some speculation about the inter-relation =
between=20
  the Mossbauer effect and hydrino reactions. The Mossbauer effect =
itself was=20
  hypothesized then to be a subset of a larger class of reactions that =
were=20
  labeled as IPE- Induced Photon Emissions - which can cover both EUV, =
soft=20
  x-rays&nbsp;and hard gammas.&nbsp;There are many who claim, =
off-the-record,=20
  that what I am calling IPE technology has been at the heart of a DoD =
"black=20
  project" for at least two decades.&nbsp;A little information has =
filtered=20
  through over the years, not&nbsp;to mention we have the "death ray" =
meme,=20
  which&nbsp;has been relegated to SciFi fantasy. Do not believe the =
fantasy=20
  part. And almost no important new information on this subject has been =

  forthcoming (even through the cracks)&nbsp;since the &nbsp;9/11 =
aftermath...=20
  indicating that the so-called "Patriot Act" is working well enough to =
stop the=20
  flow of vital information for alternative energy, if any of that =
information=20
  should arguably also have any possible terrorist or=20
  military&nbsp;implications. </DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>So be it. But in a perfect world of free-flowing information, =
more would=20
  be known about IPE and metastability now, and the broader field might =
even=20
  end-up having *precise relevance* to LENR or hydrino dynamics&nbsp;- =
this has=20
  not happened yet. More on the connection to LENR&nbsp;in Part 2. =
However, to=20
  the extent that when carefully controlled, the IPE methodology permits =
a new=20
  type of nuclear meta-phenomenon to appear and self-perpetuate - a =
limited=20
  *photon chain reaction* - that much is the key jumping-off point for a =

  Scandium soft&nbsp;x-ray multiplier.<BR><BR>More on this device in the =
context=20
  of IPE and gamma multiplication in part 2 of this post. For now, =
anyone=20
  interested in this, should study this important hot-linked =
chart:</DIV>
  <DIV><BR><A=20
  =
href=3D"http://ie.lbl.gov/xray/mainpage.htm">http://ie.lbl.gov/xray/mainp=
age.htm</A><BR><BR>There=20
  are other elements like Xe (another is not shown), which are =
noteworthy, but=20
  Sc can be said to be a singularity. Years ago, when I first chanced =
upon this=20
  finding it was evident (to this perpetual optimist) that one narrow =
path to at=20
  least a substantial source of "alternative energy" was on the horizon, =
based=20
  on the strong anomaly. Even if this IPE&nbsp;anomaly does depend on=20
  radioactivity high enough to frighten the Sierra club, it is likely =
that it=20
  should be useable, but how? Sadly, it became clear from trying to =
interest=20
  others in this, even a PhD in reactor design that many observers, even =

  scientists, do not appreciate the implications of this kind of =
information. Or=20
  else I'm reading too much into it (most likely)&nbsp;but let me =
explain it in=20
  more detail, and you be your own judge.<BR><BR>Discovering this the =
strange=20
  energy anomaly will involve the effort of looking at many elements for =

  comparative purposes from the chart above: Look at the element =
Scandium, first=20
  (It is element 21 Sc). Pay close attention to the scale on the left. =
Then=20
  compare Sc with all the other secondary emitters in the periodic=20
  table.&nbsp;Unfortunately the input spectrum is not shown for =
comparative=20
  purposes, but it is Americium at 5 MeV and the scale would be two =
narrow blips=20
  in the range of a few 100 counts. </DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Imagine&nbsp;the possibilities of IGE in the context of "spent" =
reactor=20
  fuel. If they are not intriguing, then my apologies for the long =
posting, and=20
  the next one will be of even less interest, as it will build on this =
Scandium=20
  IPE anomaly. I am just thankful that the Patriot&nbsp;Act "enforcers" =
have=20
  overlooked this information (so far)....</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>...and even more thankful that Mendeleev demonstrated to us all =
the=20
  "magic" predictive powers of a graphical 'structural arrangement' =
....</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Jones<BR><BR><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C5BEC4.AC25C0F0--


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 21 14:16:37 2005
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To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Nice quote from C. F. Kettering
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Research, is a high hat word that scares a lot of people. It needn't. It is 
rather simple. Essentially, research is nothing but a state of mind -- a 
friendly, welcoming attitude toward change.

- Charles F. Kettering


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 21 14:32:25 2005
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Battery capacity for electric autos, practical concerns
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I wrote:

>Maybe the charge station can offer something like a small U-Haul trailer, 
>that you attach to the back of your car and pull along. The trailer would 
>contain a huge battery, or perhaps a 20 kW gasoline-powered generator.

I find these are called pusher trailers or genset trailers. See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_electric_vehicle (scroll down to "Range")

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pusher_trailer (a goreblimey arrangement, if 
ever I saw one)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genset_trailer (a bit more like it).

- Jed


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Subject: Re: Ionizing the air intake of an automobile
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 15:19:49 -0700
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mark Goldes"

> Jimmy Lee, CEO of Zenion in Rohnert Park, CA, has a U.S. Patent, 
> probably now expired, on a very interesting method of ionizing 
> the air intake to a car engine.

Not quite expired,
http://xrint.com/patents/us/5010869


>His experiments with a VW Diesel pickup achieved a measured 130 
>mi/gal.  However, the valves cannot take the heat.

http://www.zenion.com/news.html

They have been promising to update the "Automotive R & D" page for 
some time...nada. If ozone corrosion on the valves is the big 
problem, what about a 2-cycle? ... well, not just any two cycle, 
as we don't want to foul the crankcase ... but... always thought 
the old GM 2-cycle diesel was a real diamond-in-the-rough - and 
with a Zenion-izer .... no valves to corrode.

Hey Mark, your free to use this idea as an entrée with Jimmy... or 
to get more info... if you and he are pals (almost neighbors, it 
would seem)

Here is the VW pic only ... doesn't tell you much

http://www.zenion.com/images/Mvc-780x.jpg

...and speaking of the "half-bakery...

http://www.halfbakery.com/idea/ionizing_20intake_20air_20for_20better_20performance 

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See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_electric_vehicle

QUOTE:

"The charging time is limited primarily by the capacity of the grid 
connection. A normal household outlet is between 1.5kW in the US to 3kW in 
countries with 240V supply. The main connection to a house might be able to 
sustain 10kW, and special wiring can be installed to use this. At this 
higher power level charging a even small 7kWh (14-28 mile) pack would 
probably require one hour. Compare this to the effective power delivery 
rate of an average petrol pump, about 5,000kW."

This sounds about right. 5 MW is a lot of power, just as Mike Carrell said.

The Japanese prototype electric vehicles shown on television recently were 
small by American standards. They are sub-compacts, like the Mini Cooper. 
They would only be practical for in-town use.

For in-town transportation, many people in Atlanta these days are riding 
Vespa scooters. It is a fad. They are cute, and I would love to try one, 
but they look kind of dangerous. I guess they are no worse than bicycles.

The European Smart car is a subcompact sold by Zap in the U.S. See:

http://www.wired.com/news/autotech/0,2554,67405,00.html

It gets the same high gas mileage as a Prius: 59 highway, 39 city. However, 
it looks like it is made out of tinfoil. I bet it is only marginally safer 
than a Vespa, whereas the Prius is probably one of the safest cars around 
despite its light weight (it gets a 5 star rating for the driver, and 4 
star for the passenger).

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 21 16:11:52 2005
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Subject: Re: Battery capacity for electric autos, practical concerns
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Suppose you had a car with the performance of a Prius, but that the
engine/generator/fuel tank was an easily removeable module, so that an
auxiliary battery pack would sit in the module slot when the engine module
was not in there.

For normal short haul trips you would go all electric.  For long trips you
would swap out the aux/bat for the eng/gen/f-t.

Aside from some engineering challenges and the inconvenience of making the
swap, there are numerous advantages to this arrangement.  Jed, I'm sure you
can elaborate on those advantages more expertly than I.  I would like to
hear your thoughts on the matter.

Jeff


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From: "John Coviello" <johnwc patmedia.net>
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Subject: Rita To Send Gas Prices Soaring Again?
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 19:24:05 -0400
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Vortexians,=20

You might want to fill your gas tank before this weekend, because =
Hurricane Rita is now a Category 5 and heading towards Houston.  The =
forecasters have been calling for a landfall about 100 miles west of =
Houston, but I'm already noticing some northward movement, ahead of =
schedule.  This storm might go right for the heart of oil refining =
country in Houston, TX.  Apparently 25% of U.S. refinery capacity is in =
Houston, so a major blow to Houston is sure to send gasoline prices =
soaring.  $4.00/gal + easily in this current energy market.

Also, Houston is the 4th largest metropolitan area in the United States. =
 Much larger than New Orleans.  The potential for damage is tremendous.  =
Let's pray that this storm peters out or move away from Houston, but it =
looks like we might have another major disaster looming.

I know this havoc via mother nature is all good for alternative energy, =
the higher energy prices certainly have made me think long and hard =
about my personal energy usage and consider alternatives realistically.  =
But, I don't like to see all this destruction and death.  Let's hope =
people in Houston weather this storm.


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<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Vortexians, </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>You might want to fill your gas tank =
before this=20
weekend, because Hurricane Rita is now a Category 5 and heading towards=20
Houston.&nbsp; The forecasters have been calling for a landfall about =
100 miles=20
west of Houston, but I'm already noticing some northward movement, ahead =
of=20
schedule.&nbsp; This storm might go right for the heart of oil refining =
country=20
in Houston, TX.&nbsp; Apparently 25% of U.S. refinery capacity is in =
Houston, so=20
a major blow to Houston is sure to send gasoline prices soaring.&nbsp; =
$4.00/gal=20
+&nbsp;easily in this current energy market.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Also, Houston is the 4th largest =
metropolitan area=20
in the United States.&nbsp; Much larger than New Orleans.&nbsp; The =
potential=20
for damage is tremendous.&nbsp; Let's pray that this storm peters out or =
move=20
away from Houston, but it looks like we might have another major =
disaster=20
looming.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I know this havoc via mother nature is =
all good for=20
alternative energy, the higher energy prices certainly have made me =
think long=20
and hard about my personal energy usage and consider alternatives=20
realistically.&nbsp; But, I don't like to see all this destruction and=20
death.&nbsp; Let's hope people in Houston weather this =
storm.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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....Also, Houston is the 4th largest metropolitan area in the 
United States.

Not to belittle a serious situation, but has Houston really grown 
that much in the last 5 years?

Here is the official Census year 2000 ranking, published in 2001 - 
when Houston was not even the largest MMA in Texas, and just 
edged-out Atlanta to make the top 10.


1   New York--Northern New Jersey--Long Island,        21,199,865
2   Los Angeles--Riverside--Orange County, CA 
16,373,645
3   Chicago--Gary--Kenosha, IL--IN--WI CMSA           9,157,540
4   Washington--Baltimore, DC--MD--VA--WV              7,608,070
5   San Francisco--Oakland--San Jose, CA 
7,039,362
6   Philadelphia--Wilmington-- PA--NJ--DE--MD            6,188,463
7   Boston--Worcester--Lawrence, MA--NH--ME--        5,819,100
8   Detroit--Ann Arbor--Flint, MI 
5,456,428
9   Dallas--Fort Worth, TX 
5,221,801
10  Houston--Galveston--Brazoria, TX 
4,669,571 

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From: "RC Macaulay" <walhalla cvtv.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Rita
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 19:41:04 -0500
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BlankHouston corporate limits allow the city to claim they are the 4th =
largest city in the USA. The "metro" area is ranked down as shown by =
Jone' chart.

Two of our companies are  located in the NASA Clear Lake area on =
Galvaston Bay. WE closed them down and evacuated at noon. I live 100 =
miles NW toward Austin. Two of our family are still inside the beltway =
and expected to arrive here near midnight tonight. There is NO bottled =
water or ice anywhere in the region at present. Long lines at the =
remaining gas stations that have fuel. There is an estimated 2 and 1/2 =
million people moving out of the Houston-Galveston zone at the present =
time.=20

 Adding to the storm surge problem, severe land subsidence caused by =
ground water pumping . Some area have subsided as much as 14 ft over 50 =
year period of time and this pose a real threat to the Nasa area.
Of greatet concern is the projected location the storm will pass over =
the coast ( just south of Galveston). The potential for storm surge and =
tornados are greatest on the northeast quadrant of the eye.
 I have been through hurricanes on the coast for 78 years. The bad one =
in my lifetime was in 1943. 143 mph at the Ellington Field weather =
station.
Folks ! The Houston-Galveston area cannot take the full brunt of a storm =
like Rita. The fallout would make Katrina pale in comparison.

Should the storm sustain its fury, look for major gasoline shortages. =
This does NOT include the double whammy to the offshore oil and gas =
production. Katrina did some damage BUT Rita is passing right through =
the chain of offshore platforms at full fury.  Any major disruption to =
the gas pipeline network will play havoc with winter gas supplies =
because so much of the nation's natural gas supply is now produced =
offshore in the gulf of Mexico.

Even 100 miles inland we are anticipating wind gust over 100 mph plus =
tornados. Fortunately, our state has one of the best response programs =
ever as demonstrated by the Katrina organized response.

Richard



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<HTML><HEAD><TITLE id=3DridTitle>Blank</TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"><BASE=20
href=3D"file://E:\Program Files\Common Files\Microsoft =
Shared\Stationery\">
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<BODY id=3DridBody bgColor=3D#ffffff=20
background=3Dcid:000901c5bf0e$506152d0$7c027841 xptower>
<DIV>Houston corporate limits allow the city to claim they are the 4th =
largest=20
city in the USA. The "metro" area is ranked down as shown by Jone' =
chart.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Two of our companies are&nbsp; located in the NASA Clear Lake area =
on=20
Galvaston Bay. WE closed them down and evacuated at noon.&nbsp;I =
live&nbsp;100=20
miles NW toward Austin. Two of our family are still inside the beltway =
and=20
expected to arrive here near midnight tonight. There is NO bottled water =
or ice=20
anywhere in the region at present. Long lines at the remaining gas =
stations that=20
have fuel. There is an estimated 2 and 1/2 million people moving out of =
the=20
Houston-Galveston zone at the present time.&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;Adding to the storm surge problem, severe land subsidence =
caused by=20
ground water pumping . Some area have subsided as much as 14 ft over 50 =
year=20
period of time and&nbsp;this pose a real threat to the Nasa area.</DIV>
<DIV>Of greatet concern is the projected location the storm will pass =
over the=20
coast ( just south of Galveston). The potential for storm surge and =
tornados are=20
greatest on the northeast quadrant of the eye.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;I have been through hurricanes on the coast for 78 years. The =
bad one=20
in my lifetime was in 1943. 143 mph at the Ellington Field weather=20
station.</DIV>
<DIV>Folks ! The Houston-Galveston area&nbsp;cannot take the full brunt =
of a=20
storm like Rita. The fallout would make Katrina pale in =
comparison.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Should the storm sustain its fury, look for major gasoline =
shortages. This=20
does NOT include the double whammy to the offshore oil and gas =
production.=20
Katrina did some damage BUT Rita is passing right through the chain of =
offshore=20
platforms at full fury.&nbsp; Any major disruption to the gas pipeline =
network=20
will play havoc with winter gas supplies because so much of the nation's =
natural=20
gas supply is now produced offshore in the gulf of Mexico.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Even 100 miles inland we are anticipating wind gust over 100 mph =
plus=20
tornados. Fortunately, our state has one of the best response programs =
ever as=20
demonstrated by the Katrina organized response.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Richard</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<P>&nbsp;</P></BODY></HTML>

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To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <000e01c5bf0e$50f3f5e0$7c027841 xptower>
Subject: Re: Rita
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BlankThanks for the inside info.  Rita is now the third strongest =
hurricane ever recorded with an enormous 70 mile wide eye.  It does seem =
like forcasters are starting to shift the track towards =
Galveston/Houston within 48 hours.  Look at the satelite pics, the storm =
has already started recurving northward.

If Rita really socks Texas City and Houston where 25% of our gasoline is =
refined, then gasoline will go haywire. =20

----- Original Message -----=20
  From: RC Macaulay=20
  To: vortex-l eskimo.com=20
  Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2005 8:41 PM
  Subject: Re: Rita


  Houston corporate limits allow the city to claim they are the 4th =
largest city in the USA. The "metro" area is ranked down as shown by =
Jone' chart.

  Two of our companies are  located in the NASA Clear Lake area on =
Galvaston Bay. WE closed them down and evacuated at noon. I live 100 =
miles NW toward Austin. Two of our family are still inside the beltway =
and expected to arrive here near midnight tonight. There is NO bottled =
water or ice anywhere in the region at present. Long lines at the =
remaining gas stations that have fuel. There is an estimated 2 and 1/2 =
million people moving out of the Houston-Galveston zone at the present =
time.=20

   Adding to the storm surge problem, severe land subsidence caused by =
ground water pumping . Some area have subsided as much as 14 ft over 50 =
year period of time and this pose a real threat to the Nasa area.
  Of greatet concern is the projected location the storm will pass over =
the coast ( just south of Galveston). The potential for storm surge and =
tornados are greatest on the northeast quadrant of the eye.
   I have been through hurricanes on the coast for 78 years. The bad one =
in my lifetime was in 1943. 143 mph at the Ellington Field weather =
station.
  Folks ! The Houston-Galveston area cannot take the full brunt of a =
storm like Rita. The fallout would make Katrina pale in comparison.

  Should the storm sustain its fury, look for major gasoline shortages. =
This does NOT include the double whammy to the offshore oil and gas =
production. Katrina did some damage BUT Rita is passing right through =
the chain of offshore platforms at full fury.  Any major disruption to =
the gas pipeline network will play havoc with winter gas supplies =
because so much of the nation's natural gas supply is now produced =
offshore in the gulf of Mexico.

  Even 100 miles inland we are anticipating wind gust over 100 mph plus =
tornados. Fortunately, our state has one of the best response programs =
ever as demonstrated by the Katrina organized response.

  Richard



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<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"><BASE=20
href=3D"file://E:\Program Files\Common Files\Microsoft =
Shared\Stationery\">
<STYLE>BODY {
	MARGIN-TOP: 25px; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 25px; COLOR: #000000; =
FONT-FAMILY: Arial, Helvetica
}
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<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2722" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY id=3DridBody bgColor=3D#ffffff=20
background=3Dcid:095c01c5bf14$96e21fe0$a4b1e118 D54BYG11>
<DIV>Thanks for the inside info.&nbsp; Rita is now the third strongest =
hurricane=20
ever recorded with an enormous 70 mile wide eye.&nbsp; It does seem like =

forcasters are starting to shift the track towards Galveston/Houston =
within 48=20
hours.&nbsp; Look at the satelite pics, the storm has already started =
recurving=20
northward.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>If Rita really socks Texas City and Houston where 25% of our =
gasoline is=20
refined, then gasoline will go haywire.&nbsp; </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3Dwalhalla cvtv.net href=3D"mailto:walhalla@cvtv.net">RC =
Macaulay</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dvortex-l eskimo.com=20
  href=3D"mailto:vortex-l eskimo.com">vortex-l@eskimo.com</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, September 21, =
2005 8:41=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Rita</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV>Houston corporate limits allow the city to claim they are the 4th =
largest=20
  city in the USA. The "metro" area is ranked down as shown by Jone'=20
chart.</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Two of our companies are&nbsp; located in the NASA Clear Lake =
area on=20
  Galvaston Bay. WE closed them down and evacuated at noon.&nbsp;I =
live&nbsp;100=20
  miles NW toward Austin. Two of our family are still inside the beltway =
and=20
  expected to arrive here near midnight tonight. There is NO bottled =
water or=20
  ice anywhere in the region at present. Long lines at the remaining gas =

  stations that have fuel. There is an estimated 2 and 1/2 million =
people moving=20
  out of the Houston-Galveston zone at the present time.&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;Adding to the storm surge problem, severe land subsidence =
caused by=20
  ground water pumping . Some area have subsided as much as 14 ft over =
50 year=20
  period of time and&nbsp;this pose a real threat to the Nasa =
area.</DIV>
  <DIV>Of greatet concern is the projected location the storm will pass =
over the=20
  coast ( just south of Galveston). The potential for storm surge and =
tornados=20
  are greatest on the northeast quadrant of the eye.</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;I have been through hurricanes on the coast for 78 years. =
The bad=20
  one in my lifetime was in 1943. 143 mph at the Ellington Field weather =

  station.</DIV>
  <DIV>Folks ! The Houston-Galveston area&nbsp;cannot take the full =
brunt of a=20
  storm like Rita. The fallout would make Katrina pale in =
comparison.</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Should the storm sustain its fury, look for major gasoline =
shortages.=20
  This does NOT include the double whammy to the offshore oil and gas=20
  production. Katrina did some damage BUT Rita is passing right through =
the=20
  chain of offshore platforms at full fury.&nbsp; Any major disruption =
to the=20
  gas pipeline network will play havoc with winter gas supplies because =
so much=20
  of the nation's natural gas supply is now produced offshore in the =
gulf of=20
  Mexico.</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Even 100 miles inland we are anticipating wind gust over 100 mph =
plus=20
  tornados. Fortunately, our state has one of the best response programs =
ever as=20
  demonstrated by the Katrina organized response.</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Richard</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <P>&nbsp;</P></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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To all those global warming deniers who think that increased CO2 will be =
good for crop yields and that nature can take all that we throw at it...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4269066.stm
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>To all those global warming deniers who =
think that=20
increased CO2 will be good for crop yields and that nature can take all =
that we=20
throw at it...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4269066.stm">http://new=
s.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4269066.stm</A></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML=
>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 22 04:13:37 2005
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From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: RE: "Suppression In Science" by Rochus Boerner
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Come off it Grimer, why do you use such labels reserved for the worst in
society for the best? It all starts from an early age: nerd, misfit, weirdo,
wanker, perv, psycho, tax avoider, self-centred, anti-socialist on an on.

It's enough to put anyone off excelling which is what happens in low class
communities. It's a form of fascism, lowest common denominator. They drag
everything down, now it's the under achieving middle class educated beyond
their ability doing it.

F..k socialism, f. psychology, f. pshycobable.


-----Original Message-----
From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On
Behalf Of Grimer
Sent: 21 September 2005 20:35
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: "Suppression In Science" by Rochus Boerner

I thought this was rather interesting light on the 
relationship between supporters of *heresies*, such 
as CF, and the mainstream scientific establishment.

     ===============================================
     Resentment against the informer and secret 
     agent is not only a matter of historical 
     memory. Any organized society is intolerant 
     of those who set themselves apart from the 
     prevailing norms. Any group's major rewards 
     are reserved for those who most wholeheartedly 
     accept and most vigorously personify the 
     group's ideals. Psychologists, sociologists 
     and philosophers have abundantly remarked the 
     similarity between the position of the artist 
     and that of the criminal in any society. What 
     the two have in common is the fact that they 
     set themselves apart from society; they are by 
     nature sceptical of its ideals, of its morals 
     and interests; they arrogate to themselves the 
     right to reject the established code and to 
     live by their own. It is human nature to resent 
     such independence, even arrogance. 
     This resentment is the price the artist pays 
     for the independent point of view which nourishes 
     his art; punishment, the active expression of 
     this resentment, is the price the criminal pays 
     for his attempt to achieve the society's aims by 
     asocial means. 
     ===============================================

Cheers,

Frank Grimer

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From: "RC Macaulay" <walhalla cvtv.net>
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Subject: Re: "Suppression in Science" by..
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BlankRemi wrote..
>Come off it Grimer, why do you use such labels reserved for the worst =
in
society for the best? It all starts from an early age: nerd, misfit, =
weirdo,
wanker, perv, psycho, tax avoider, self-centred, anti-socialist on an =
on.

>It's enough to put anyone off excelling which is what happens in low =
class
communities. It's a form of fascism, lowest common denominator. They =
drag            ( note the word  " they" )
everything down, now it's the under achieving middle class educated =
beyond
their ability doing it.


Remi,

Everyone is responsible for their own conduct.

I'll tell you who "they" is,   "they's they !.. it's always the " other =
guy' that did it.

Richard



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<HTML><HEAD><TITLE id=3DridTitle>Blank</TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"><BASE=20
href=3D"file://E:\Program Files\Common Files\Microsoft =
Shared\Stationery\">
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<BODY id=3DridBody bgColor=3D#ffffff=20
background=3Dcid:000c01c5bf71$485ef700$0100007f xptower>
<DIV>Remi wrote..</DIV>
<P>&gt;Come off it Grimer, why do you use such labels reserved for the =
worst=20
in<BR>society for the best? It all starts from an early age: nerd, =
misfit,=20
weirdo,<BR>wanker, perv, psycho, tax avoider, self-centred, =
anti-socialist on an=20
on.<BR><BR>&gt;It's enough to put anyone off excelling which is what =
happens in=20
low class<BR>communities. It's a form of fascism, lowest common =
denominator.=20
They =
drag&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ( =

note the word&nbsp; " they" )<BR>everything down, now it's the under =
achieving=20
middle class educated beyond<BR>their ability doing it.<BR></P>
<P>Remi,</P>
<P>Everyone is responsible for their own conduct.</P>
<P>I'll tell you who "they" is,&nbsp;&nbsp; "they's they !.. it's always =
the "=20
other guy' that did it.</P>
<P>Richard</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 22 07:01:54 2005
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From: "Jones Beene" <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
To: "vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Rita-proof ?
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 07:00:43 -0700
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Vertical axis turbines are artistic, in a techie way.... Claim 
is - to survive hurricanes.
http://www.windside.com/products.html

It will be an incredible marketing tool if someone can film one of 
them surviving Rita - might even make the evening news..... 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 22 08:19:36 2005
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Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 11:18:43 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Battery capacity for electric autos, practical concerns
In-Reply-To: <003d01c5bf02$be0a19e0$6701a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net>
References: <48u2ha$1a9iio4 mxip08a.cluster1.charter.net>
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revtec wrote:

>Suppose you had a car with the performance of a Prius, but that the
>engine/generator/fuel tank was an easily removeable module . . .

>Jed, I'm sure you
>can elaborate on those advantages more expertly than I.

I am certainly no expert in automotive engineering! Jay Leno, for example, 
knows way more about that subject than I do. But removing the engine and 
fuel tank sounds extremely difficult to me, and I think it would probably 
be unsafe as well. The towed genset approach shown in this photograph seems 
much more practical:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genset_trailer

Actually, the more I think about it, the more I like the idea of renting a 
large towed battery, like a U-Haul trailer. Something like the aerodynamic 
U-Haul Sport Trailer would be a good design. See 
http://www.uhaul.com/trailers/, top photo and right side of page. This has 
a 1,000 lb load capacity, which is about as much as electric vehicle 
battery packs are expected to weigh. In other words, it would double the 
range of the car. When you arrive at your destination, or return to your 
hometown, you bring the trailer back. If you have fully recharged it 
overnight at a motel, you get a discount.

Suppose you are driving from Atlanta to New York, 880 miles. The car has a 
300 mile range, but the effective range is 250 miles because otherwise you 
might run out of power in the middle of the road. (A gasoline powered car 
cannot be driven the full range of the gas tank, either). Normally you 
would have to stop four times to recharge, which would take an hour total. 
However, you are in a hurry, and you want to avoid these 15 minute breaks, 
so you rent one trailer in Atlanta. This makes your effective range to 500 
miles (not 300 * 2 - 50, because pulling the trailer consumes extra 
energy). You drive all the way to Richmond, VA and then swap the trailer 
for a new fully charged one in Richmond, which takes only 5 minutes instead 
of the usual 15 minute recharging session, and you zoom north to New York 
with the energy from the new trailer.

For someone like me, stopping four times for 15 minutes each during an 880 
mile trip is perfectly reasonable. I would do that anyway. In fact, I would 
take at least two days to make the trip. So an electric car with a 300 mile 
range would be satisfactory for my purposes. On the other hand, it is more 
convenient having a 600 - 750 mile range with the Prius.

Fifteen minute recharging times would be beneficial to roadside restaurants 
and rest areas. Gas stations make little profit selling gasoline anyway. 
Most of their profit comes from the sale of food and sundries. So they 
would probably make more money if drivers had to stop for 15 minutes 
instead of 5 minutes. They would also charge for electricity, of course. 
They would make even more money if they rented  U-Haul battery packs for 
$50 each.

Speaking of Jay Leno, here is a fascinating article he wrote about a 1925 
steam powered automobile that comes up to steam in under a minute, produces 
1000 lbs of torque, and easily goes 70 mph. Sweet! See:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/sub_coll_leno/1302916.html

- Jed


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Why not just fly a very large fleet of jumbo jets and military aircraft
stacked at intervals in the right direction. Their 1800+ exhausts and condensible
water vapor from a million barrels of jet fuel ~ 5.5 trillion BTU plus it's kinetic energy might make it. ????

Small investment compared to the oil used for evacuating the coastal cities.

Frederick


http://mb-soft.com/public/hurrican.html

"Regarding the beginning and growth of hurricanes, there is another consideration. The energy estimate mentioned above is roughly 1015 BTU of kinetic energy. Current hurricane research seems to assume that the development and growth of a hurricane occurs due to energy conversions (from heat to kinetic energy) within the eye area. A rough energy audit suggests that this approach must be incorrect. Even a substantial sized "eye" (for an early storm) of a ten-mile diameter, receives a TOTAL solar energy input of around 6 * 1011 BTU/hour. If ALL of that energy was somehow converted into kinetic energy, around 1500 hours of sunlight (or over 150 days) would be required to supply all the kinetic energy in the mature storm. No physical process has perfect efficiency, so even much longer time would be required. In addition, there is always the frictional energy loss at the perimeter of the circulation that constantly dissipates energy. However, from genesis to maturity, hurricanes tend to take less than 1/10 of that time. This suggests that either something is wrong in this logic or the storm somehow uses a lot of pre-existing kinetic energy (of air motion) or uses a larger solar-energy-capture area. The premise being explored here is the middle one, that pre-existing wind movements are "tuned" by resonance actions into developing concerted actions or rotary motion. If anyone has ever watched a "dust devil" appear almost instantly in a field due to gusty winds might agree with that, as it both appears and disappears extremely quickly. "
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<HTML style="FONT-SIZE: x-small; FONT-FAMILY: MS Sans Serif"><HEAD>
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<BODY>
<P>
<DIV>Why not just fly a very large fleet of jumbo jets and military aircraft</DIV>
<DIV>stacked at intervals in the right direction. Their 1800+ exhausts and condensible</DIV>
<DIV>water vapor from a million barrels of jet fuel ~ 5.5 trillion BTU plus it's kinetic energy might make it. ????</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Small investment compared to the oil used for evacuating the coastal cities.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Frederick</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://mb-soft.com/public/hurrican.html">http://mb-soft.com/public/hurrican.html</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>"Regarding the beginning and growth of hurricanes, there is another consideration. The energy estimate mentioned above is roughly 10<SUP>15</SUP> BTU of kinetic energy. Current hurricane research seems to assume that the development and growth of a hurricane occurs due to energy conversions (from heat to kinetic energy) within the eye area. A rough energy audit suggests that this approach must be incorrect. Even a substantial sized "eye" (for an early storm) of a ten-mile diameter, receives a TOTAL solar energy input of around 6 * 10<SUP>11</SUP> BTU/hour. If ALL of that energy was somehow converted into kinetic energy, around 1500 hours of sunlight (or over 150 days) would be required to supply all the kinetic energy in the mature storm. No physical process has perfect efficiency, so even much longer time would be required. In addition, there is always the frictional energy loss at the perimeter of the circulation that constantly dissipates energy. However, from genesis to maturity, hurricanes tend to take less than 1/10 of that time. This suggests that either something is wrong in this logic or the storm somehow uses a lot of pre-existing kinetic energy (of air motion) or uses a larger solar-energy-capture area. The premise being explored here is the middle one, that pre-existing wind movements are "tuned" by resonance actions into developing concerted actions or rotary motion. If anyone has ever watched a "dust devil" appear almost instantly in a field due to gusty winds might agree with that, as it both appears and disappears extremely quickly. "</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 22 08:40:27 2005
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From: OrionWorks <orionworks charter.net>
Organization: OrionWorks
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
CC: <orionworks charter.net>
Subject: Re: Rita-proof ?
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 10:38:54 -0500
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Jones Ses:

> Vertical axis turbines are artistic, in a techie
> way.... Claim is - to survive hurricanes.
> http://www.windside.com/products.html
> 
> It will be an incredible marketing tool if someone can
> film one of them surviving Rita - might even make the
> evening news..... 

I've often wondered about the comparative efficiency of multi - directional wind turbines versus traditional "windmill" devices. I've always been under the impression that prototypes that take better advantage of multi-directional winds must unfortunately sacrifice a certain amount of (fixed wind) efficiency of which traditional single directional windmills do not have to contend with.

However this doesn't appear so, much to my surprise. The Windside website claims to produce "...50 % more electricity a year than traditional propellers with the same swept area." They also claim "All Windside turbines have been made to withstand storms, frost, ice, heat and humidity." They can charge at very low speeds, the larger models claiming to be able to charge from wind speeds as low as 1 meter per second. Most astonishing to me they claim "The Windside turbine works also in storms, tested in 60 m/s, which is unbearable speed to others. Both these facts are world records."

They appear to be scalable with larger theoretical models approaching 200 meters tall, 70 meters wide. It is claimed that such a scaled up model is capable of generating several megawatts of power.

The fact that they make the claim of being able to generate 50% more electricity than traditional models would at first glace suggest a huge, an absolutely HUGE advantage, over traditional propeller wind mill models.

You would think investors in wind energy would be flocking to their doors with fistfuls of cash in their sweaty little hands. 

A side comment: I also can't see environmentalists complaining about the overall configuration of these windmills. A bird that crashes into one of these devices would deserve to be taken out of the gene pool!

I wonder what I'm missing in this seemingly glowing review.

Lack of awareness? Ignorance and politics, as usual?

PS: There is only one disadvantage that I can see, and it's a purely personal and aesthetic one. I don't think they are as sexy looking as the traditional propeller driven windmills. Maybe they can be spruced up with bright colors! But, hey, for a 50% increase in electrical generating inefficiency - aesthetics can go out the door!

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 22 08:58:03 2005
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To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Rita-proof ?
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Jones Beene wrote:

>Vertical axis turbines are artistic, in a techie way.... Claim is - to 
>survive hurricanes.

Conventional large-scale wind turbines easily survive hurricanes. The 
propellers are automatically feathered in high winds. In normal operations, 
the propeller and shaft routinely survive 1.5 MW of torque, which is way 
more than any hurricane would produce when pushing against feathered props 
and the tower.

Small wind turbines might be a problem. I would not know.

A 1.5 MW vertical axis turbine would be awkward, I suppose. It would not 
sweep high into the sky way above the top of the tower, the way a 
conventional three blade design does. You would have to make the tower 
taller to reach the same height, and the tower is the most expensive 
component. The higher you go the better the turbine works.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 22 09:14:21 2005
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From: "Jones Beene" <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
To: "vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Scandium 1.5
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I received an interesting private communication concerning yesterday's =
post about Scandium. It is from a source who does not want his name =
mentioned, and that raises some red flags. After all - this is vortex, =
not sci.physics, but so be it. However, since the crux of the =
information is already online, and does have curious relevance, actually =
a double-relevance, I decided to include the public domain part of it - =
in an preliminary update of the prior post.

It seems that a fellow named Henry Moray (who previously has been on =
many observer's list of highly "suspect" claimants to free energy), 80 =
years ago found what he called a "Swedish stone" which had "free energy" =
properties.=20

Note that the name Scandium actually derives from its Swedish discovery, =
but this connection to Moray has never been mentioned before now - nor =
in relation to Moray's "Swedish stone" (AFAIK).

One reason for the vocal suspicion of H.M. (from OU skeptics - not me - =
I am neutral on this) is that Moray was on mission with the Mormon =
Church to Uppsala, Sweden, when this discovery occurred - indicating at =
least that he was strongly inclined to believe in modern-day miracles, =
and also the LDS has long tentacles. Anyway, Moray was claimed to have =
been able to light a standard 100-watt light bulb (1925 ) using only =
this material in his circuitry as the power source - probably a simple =
tank circuit. And later he was said to be able power an electric flat =
iron, bringing the total power consumed to over 500 watts, but that =
stress would cause the "stone" to overheat. I can see a few wry-smiles =
out there in vo-land. Take it for what its worth - its an 80 year-old =
anecdote, recently revived by fringe researchers - and yet to be =
validated, even in part.... except....

Granted that this kind of information is also highly suspect, but it =
does fit in very tightly with this revised explanation of the "Swedish =
stone." It is a supposedly unrelated anecdote of the legendary "Hubbard =
Coil", which was claimed to be a powerful free energy generator invented =
around 1919. This story is most likely at least partially true (because =
of the late Paul Brown's research and the genuine newspaper coverage of =
one event ). Not to mention the fact that Hubbard did have proven access =
to a large amount of radium, which went missing from factory where he =
was working.=20

There are newspaper & magazine articles online, and Hubbard's patent for =
a radium-spark plug, along with R&D notes, & biography. This is also =
relevant to the late Paul Brown's battery, but even Brown missed many =
important details in this.
http://www.rafoeg.de/20,Dokumentenarchiv/10,Personenbezogenes_Archiv/,Hub=
bard_Alfred/Alfred%20Hubbard%20Coil%20Generator.pdf

Consequently, the tie-in of Moray to both radium and Scandium is this. =
If Moray's "Swedish stone" was a natural (or mixed) mineral containing =
both radium and Scandium, both fairly common in that region, then it =
would have been far more active than radium alone - which is no slouch =
when it comes to radioactivity. I have no opinion on whether or not =
Moray actually did harness a natural radioactive mineral or not, but if =
Brown could do it in modern times - it is arguably possible. ERGO - =
let's say that previous skepticism has now been mediated by the =
existence of a hypothetical explanation for all the anecdote, which =
hypothesis can explain two prior claims. Whereas before this, it was all =
in the realm of bare-anecdote. IOW this will not change the opinion of =
any skeptic, but in the event that any experimenter (outside the USA, =
where this would be illegal here) has access to minerals containing =
radium - then boosting those minerals (and at the same time making the =
emission safer "softer") - is possible using Scandium. If I were in =
Sweden, with winter fast approaching, I would be out with a Geiger =
counter, looking for candidate materials ;-)

The important point for a future where terrorism is not the overriding =
issue is - if natural radioactivity can be harnessed at all, the this =
rare metal Scandium can take a marginal process and make it commercial. =
It may be the one preferred route to take, because it allows the very =
strong, hard x-rays of certain emitters, to be both downshifted and =
multiplied. The risk/rewards formula is thereby drastically shifted. And =
one huge plus - to be covered in the upcoming Part II of this posting, =
is that it allow real energy production from nuclear waste. I suspect, =
and have some preliminary figures to back it up, that at some point in =
time, it will be possible to get more energy out of spent-fuel, than was =
ever extracted from it while it was in the reactor. IOW the so-called =
"spent fuel" is probably more valuable than the new stuff, when properly =
employed. What an absurd boondoggle we have in Nevada! But, the bad news =
is that the eventual time frame (for this possible "rediscovery") will =
likely have to await dealing with the issues of terrorism first. Its all =
about risk vs. rewards.

The production of the first pound of pure scandium metal did not even =
occur until 1960, so it is clear that if Moray used a natural mineral, =
and his results were able to be replicated (ala Brown) - then pure =
Scandium is not required, probably only an enriched mineral ore. =
Scandium resembles yttrium and the rare-earth metals (and some hydrino =
catalysts) more than it resembles aluminum or titanium. It is a =
surprisingly light metal but has a much higher melting point than =
aluminum. Scandium is also acid-resistant, which is most unusual for a =
pure metal, and not attacked by a 1:1 mixture of  HNO3 and 48% HF.=20

Scandium oxide now costs about $75/g !.... which is far more than =
plutonium. But that is a function of limited demand more than anything =
else. There is actually more Scandium in surface minerals on earth than =
lead, lithium, boron or tin - all of which metals are used in tonnage at =
prices which are affordable. About 20 kg of  scandium (as Sc2O3) are now =
being used yearly in the U.S. (2002) to  produce high-intensity lights =
and unknown military uses. With an increased demand (tonnage level), the =
price would probably drop to about that of lithium.

The important characteristic of Scandium goes back to the "metastable" =
state of deformed nuclei or nuclear isomers. Elements can be metastable =
(in the broadest definition) in either their electron or their nuclear =
configuration (sometimes called a nuclear isomer). Metastability is =
part-and-parcel of high-energy photon release, such as is seen in =
fluorescence. The  photons in question for IPE are most often either EUV =
(extreme ultraviolet) or "soft"  x-rays (gammas of less than 100 eV of =
mass energy). A photon chain  reaction, as here defined, is a correlate =
of the nuclear chain reaction, but is always diminishing slowly and =
can't be made self-sustaining without an infinite amount of substrate =
media. This is because there are no real "reflectors" for soft x-rays, =
which are generally limited to induced auger photon emission from lower =
electron orbitals at a particular wavelength, or multiple thereof in an =
Auger cascade.=20

Such a phenomenon, but in the extreme ultraviolet, has arguable been =
discovered and documented by Dr. Randell Mills, although he describes it =
far differently. A similar  mechanism may be implicated in other forms =
of "cold fusion" as well, and in fact there is ample reason to believe =
that Mills'  techniques might be better implemented with deuterium than =
with hydrogen from the standpoint of energy return.

First - to clear up one point. Soft x-rays are not always appreciated to =
have a nuclear origin, except in the Mossbauer situation. Gammas from =
the nucleus are usually "hard". However, in certain elements and =
isotopes, the nuclear emission can be so  tuned to the electron =
configuration of that atom, that it is most always captured (very high =
cross section) and consequently, instead of a 1 MeV emission, you  will =
see many in the range of 20-60 keV (typical of Scandium).=20

More on the actual devices I have in mind later... although with this =
Moray/ Hubbard background material, the "realization" as the French say, =
might be worth taking a hard (or soft) relook, when framed in the =
context of an enhanced radium (or spent fuel)/ scandium (boosted) power =
source.

Paul, you left us way too soon....

Jones
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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff background=3D"">
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I received an interesting private =
communication=20
concerning yesterday's post about Scandium. It is from a source who does =
not=20
want his name mentioned, and that raises some red flags. After all - =
this is=20
vortex, not sci.physics, but so be it. However, since the crux of the=20
information is already online, and does have curious relevance, actually =
a=20
double-relevance, I decided to include the public domain part of it - in =
an=20
preliminary update of the prior post.<BR><BR>It seems that a fellow =
named Henry=20
Moray (who previously has been on many observer's list of highly =
"suspect"=20
claimants to free energy), 80 years ago found what he called a "Swedish =
stone"=20
which had "free energy" properties. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Note that the name Scandium actually =
derives from=20
its Swedish discovery, but this connection to Moray has never been =
mentioned=20
before now - nor&nbsp;in relation to Moray's "Swedish stone"=20
(AFAIK).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>One reason for the vocal suspicion of=20
H.M.&nbsp;(from OU skeptics - not me - I am neutral on this) is that =
Moray was=20
on mission with the Mormon Church to Uppsala, Sweden, when this =
discovery=20
occurred - indicating at least that he was strongly inclined to believe =
in=20
modern-day miracles, and also the LDS has long tentacles. Anyway, Moray =
was=20
claimed to have been able to light a standard 100-watt light bulb (1925 =
) using=20
only&nbsp;this material in his circuitry as the power source =
-&nbsp;probably a=20
simple tank circuit. And later he was said to be able power an electric =
flat=20
iron, bringing the total power consumed to over 500 watts, but that =
stress would=20
cause the "stone" to overheat. I can see a few wry-smiles out there in =
vo-land.=20
Take it for what its worth - its an 80 year-old anecdote, recently =
revived by=20
fringe researchers - and yet to be validated, even in part....=20
except....<BR><BR>Granted that this kind of information is also highly =
suspect,=20
but it does fit in very tightly with this revised explanation of the =
"Swedish=20
stone." It is a supposedly unrelated anecdote of&nbsp;the legendary =
"Hubbard=20
Coil", which&nbsp;was claimed to be a powerful free energy generator=20
invented&nbsp;around 1919. This story is most likely at =
least&nbsp;partially=20
true (because of the late Paul Brown's research and the genuine =
newspaper=20
coverage of one event ). Not to mention the fact that Hubbard did have =
proven=20
access to a large amount of radium, which went missing from factory =
where he was=20
working. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>There are newspaper &amp; magazine =
articles online,=20
and&nbsp;Hubbard's patent for a radium-spark plug, along with R&amp;D =
notes,=20
&amp; biography. This is also relevant to the late Paul Brown's battery, =
but=20
even Brown missed many important details in this.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"http://www.rafoeg.de/20,Dokumentenarchiv/10,Personenbezogenes_Arc=
hiv/,Hubbard_Alfred/Alfred%20Hubbard%20Coil%20Generator.pdf">http://www.r=
afoeg.de/20,Dokumentenarchiv/10,Personenbezogenes_Archiv/,Hubbard_Alfred/=
Alfred%20Hubbard%20Coil%20Generator.pdf</A><BR><BR>Consequently,=20
the tie-in of Moray to both radium and Scandium is this. If Moray's =
"Swedish=20
stone" was a natural (or mixed) mineral containing both radium and =
Scandium,=20
both fairly common in that region, then&nbsp;it would have been far more =
active=20
than radium alone - which is no slouch when it comes to radioactivity. I =
have no=20
opinion on whether or not Moray actually did harness a natural =
radioactive=20
mineral or not, but if Brown could do it in modern times - it is =
arguably=20
possible. ERGO - let's say that previous skepticism has now been =
mediated by the=20
existence of a hypothetical explanation for all the anecdote, which =
hypothesis=20
can explain two prior claims. Whereas before this,&nbsp;it was&nbsp;all =
in the=20
realm of bare-anecdote. IOW this will not change the opinion of any =
skeptic, but=20
in the event that any experimenter (outside the USA, where this would be =
illegal=20
here) has access to minerals containing radium - then boosting those =
minerals=20
(and at the same time making the emission safer "softer") - is possible =
using=20
Scandium. If I were in Sweden, with winter fast approaching, I would be =
out with=20
a Geiger counter, looking for candidate materials ;-)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The&nbsp;important point for a future =
where=20
terrorism&nbsp;is not the overriding issue is - if natural radioactivity =
can be=20
harnessed at all, the&nbsp;this&nbsp;rare metal Scandium can take a =
marginal=20
process and make it commercial. It&nbsp;may be the one preferred route =
to take,=20
because it allows the very strong, hard x-rays of certain emitters, to =
be both=20
downshifted and multiplied. The risk/rewards formula is thereby =
drastically=20
shifted. And one huge plus - to be covered in the upcoming Part II of =
this=20
posting, is that it allow real energy production from nuclear waste. I =
suspect,=20
and have some preliminary figures to back it up,&nbsp;that at some point =
in=20
time, it will be possible to get more energy out of spent-fuel, than was =
ever=20
extracted from it while it was in the reactor. IOW the so-called "spent =
fuel" is=20
probably more valuable than the new stuff, when properly employed. What =
an=20
absurd boondoggle we have in Nevada! But, the bad news is that the =
eventual time=20
frame (for this possible "rediscovery")&nbsp;will likely&nbsp;have to =
await=20
dealing with the issues of terrorism first. Its all about risk vs.=20
rewards.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The production of the first pound of =
pure scandium=20
metal did not even occur until 1960, so it is clear that if Moray used a =
natural=20
mineral, and his results were able to be replicated (ala Brown)&nbsp;- =
then pure=20
Scandium is not required, probably only an enriched mineral ore. =
Scandium=20
resembles yttrium and the rare-earth metals (and some hydrino catalysts) =
more=20
than it resembles aluminum or&nbsp;titanium. It is a surprisingly light =
metal=20
but has a much higher&nbsp;melting point than aluminum. Scandium is also =

acid-resistant, which is most unusual for a pure metal, and not attacked =
by a=20
1:1 mixture of&nbsp; HNO3 and 48% HF. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Scandium oxide now costs about =
$75/g&nbsp;!....=20
which is far more than plutonium. But that is a function of limited =
demand more=20
than anything else. There is actually more Scandium in surface minerals =
on earth=20
than lead, lithium, boron or tin - all of which metals are used in =
tonnage at=20
prices which are affordable. About 20 kg of&nbsp; scandium (as Sc2O3) =
are now=20
being used yearly in the U.S. (2002) to&nbsp; produce high-intensity =
lights and=20
unknown military uses. With an increased&nbsp;demand (tonnage level), =
the price=20
would probably drop to about that of lithium.<BR></FONT><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2><BR>The important characteristic of Scandium&nbsp;goes back to =
the=20
"metastable" state of deformed nuclei or nuclear isomers.&nbsp;Elements =
can be=20
metastable (in the broadest definition) in either their electron or =
their=20
nuclear configuration (sometimes called a nuclear isomer). Metastability =
is=20
part-and-parcel of high-energy photon release, such as is seen in =
fluorescence.=20
The&nbsp; photons in question for IPE are most often either EUV (extreme =

ultraviolet) or "soft"&nbsp; x-rays (gammas of less than 100 eV of mass =
energy).=20
A photon chain&nbsp; reaction, as here defined, is a correlate of the =
nuclear=20
chain&nbsp;reaction, but is always diminishing slowly and can't be made=20
self-sustaining without an infinite amount of substrate media. This is =
because=20
there are no real "reflectors" for soft x-rays, which&nbsp;are generally =
limited=20
to induced auger photon emission from lower electron orbitals at a =
particular=20
wavelength, or multiple thereof in an Auger cascade. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Such a phenomenon, but&nbsp;in the =
extreme=20
ultraviolet, has arguable been discovered and documented by Dr. Randell =
Mills,=20
although he describes it far differently. A similar&nbsp; mechanism may =
be=20
implicated in other forms of "cold fusion" as&nbsp;well, and in fact =
there is=20
ample reason to believe that Mills'&nbsp; techniques might be better =
implemented=20
with deuterium than with hydrogen from the standpoint of energy=20
return.<BR><BR>First - to clear up one point. Soft x-rays are not always =

appreciated&nbsp;to have a nuclear origin, except in the Mossbauer =
situation.=20
Gammas from the nucleus are usually "hard". However, in certain elements =
and=20
isotopes,&nbsp;the nuclear emission can be so&nbsp; tuned to the =
electron=20
configuration of that atom, that it is&nbsp;most always captured (very =
high=20
cross section) and consequently, instead of a 1 MeV emission, you&nbsp; =
will see=20
many in the range of&nbsp;20-60 keV (typical of Scandium). </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>More on the actual devices I have in =
mind later...=20
although with this Moray/ Hubbard background material, the "realization" =
as the=20
French say, might be worth taking a hard (or soft) relook, when framed =
in the=20
context of an enhanced radium (or spent fuel)/ scandium =
(boosted)&nbsp;power=20
source.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Paul, you left us way too =
soon....</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Jones</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C5BF55.D8DCC6C0--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 22 09:23:04 2005
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Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 12:21:38 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Compressed air car
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See:

http://intdata.homeip.net/mdi.shtml

They have addressed the one safety issue that bothered me about these cars: 
exploding air storage tanks. Quote:

"Carbon fiber air tanks are explosion proof - designed to crack and release 
pressure safely if impacted.  The tanks are proven, existing technology 
currently installed in city busses for methane natural gas."

These are micro-cars, smaller than a Mini Cooper. As I say, it is safer 
than a bicycle. Probably cleaner and dryer too. When I was riding a bicycle 
this morning, a construction site water truck sprayed me with water and mud.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 22 09:34:49 2005
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From: OrionWorks <orionworks charter.net>
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Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 11:33:28 -0500
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The recent Rita-proof post from Jones got me to thinking about an alternative scenario.

I'm sure most of us have at one time or another experienced unexpected wind gusts when walking past or between tall buildings. They don't call Chicago the "Windy City" for no reason! This is due to the fact that the wind is literally being funneled between the wall(s) of tall buildings into a smaller volume of space. The net result is that the atmospheric throughput of air must increase in order to balance the books.

Architects have learned that they must take into consideration the natural environmental wind dynamics of the location when designing huge new buildings least pedestrians walking nearby might be swept off their feet, or whatever might be held in their hands. I understand complex computer modeling and wind tunnel tests have helped designers alleviate the worst of these environmental conditions. The TV program NOVA aired an excellent program on this issue a few series ago.

I can't help but believe that the deliberate funneling of wind could just as easily be used to increase the efficiency of strategically placed wind farms. Fixed wall "barriers' could be constructed to help focus or funnel the prevailing winds into smaller volumetric spaces, and thus, increase the wind speed. This, in turn, would increase the overall efficiency of the windmills.

It seems to me that such wind focusing designs would work best in areas where trade winds are predictably unidirectional.

There exist numerous locations on the planet where the landscape naturally focuses wind, such as in a narrow valley that strategically runs parallel to the prevailing trade winds.  The Columbia River that runs between the states of Oregon and Washington, where we see photos of spectacular wind surfing, instantly comes to mind. I suspect a number of wind farms are already taking advantage of these natural formations. I'm only suggesting that with a little artificial help we might be able to increase wind farm efficiency in other proposed locations where the landscape doesn't naturally help out. I would think the construction of "wind focusing" walls shouldn't add all that much more to the overall expense either since there are no moving parts. It's possible that the increase in electrical efficiency might easily pay for the wind focusing walls in short order.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

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Jed Rothwell,

> These are micro-cars, smaller than a Mini Cooper. As I say, it 
> is safer than a bicycle. Probably cleaner and dryer too. When I 
> was riding a bicycle this morning, a construction site water 
> truck sprayed me with water and mud.


The answer to that problem is at hand...

http://www.cab-bike.com/ 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 22 09:37:29 2005
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Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Jones Beene wrote:
>
>> Vertical axis turbines are artistic, in a techie way.... Claim is - 
>> to survive hurricanes.
>
>
> Conventional large-scale wind turbines easily survive hurricanes. The 
> propellers are automatically feathered in high winds. In normal 
> operations, the propeller and shaft routinely survive 1.5 MW of 
> torque, which is way more than any hurricane would produce when 
> pushing against feathered props and the tower.
>
> Small wind turbines might be a problem. I would not know.
>
> A 1.5 MW vertical axis turbine would be awkward, I suppose. It would 
> not sweep high into the sky way above the top of the tower, the way a 
> conventional three blade design does. You would have to make the tower 
> taller to reach the same height, and the tower is the most expensive 
> component. The higher you go the better the turbine works.
>
> - Jed
>
>
I know of one firm that's installing vertical axis current mills on 
coral reefs. The water flows over the reef at high tide and then flows 
out through a gap as the tide drops. The mill pumps sea water up to a 
header tank on land and it flows out via a turbine. The water based 
forces on the turbine are far greater than any wind stress. The current 
mill designers have to think about shark strike rather than bird strike. 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 22 09:58:53 2005
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Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 12:57:14 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Two poems about cold fusion
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Mike Staker is a U.S. Army researcher who is well-known in cold fusion 
circles. He recently wrote a poem parodying Robert Frost's, "Stopping by 
the Woods on a Snowy Evening."

Dropping by the Lab, which is "Glowing", this Evening
Fusion Fire From Frost  (F4)

by  Michael R. Staker
September 2005


Whose research area? I don't rightly know.
Their expertise should be copious though.
They will not see me working so,
Investigating cold fusion for mankind's pro.

They have dismissed the topic here.
The reason? It might not be so clear,
Explains Mallove, Beaudette, Krivit, Winocur,
Commencing from their will, not intellectual steer.

Science consists of experiments and theory.
Knowledge is reveled after one is weary,
In the lab, not lovely, dark and dreary,
Instead of sneering for a quarterly diary.

Support and funding is not a hope to seek.
But we of LENR have character too deep;
That makes for promises to keep,
And pleads: "Experiments, complete!"



One of Staker's co-workers, who might wish to remain anonymous, wrote a 
response parody based on Poe's "The Raven:"


As I sat in my cubie weary
Thinking of ballistics dreary,
Came an e-mail thru the door.

It told a tale of fusion frigid,
Of science attitudes so rigid,
They banished test results of yore.

And what am I to make of this,
That gets an establishment so pissed,
Their funding folks said, "Nevermore"?

What is it about deuterium
That stimulates so much delirium
They send support right to the floor?

Could it be our mighty nation,
In search of energy salvation,
Can't take solutions any more?

Is our foresight so myopic
When it should be telescopic
That blinds us to another door?

So I guess we'll just rely on
Gasoline at three bucks a gallon
And climate temperatures that soar.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 22 10:20:12 2005
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From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk
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You too Richard.
All the best.

________________________________________
From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On
Behalf Of RC Macaulay
Sent: 22 September 2005 13:30
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: "Suppression in Science" by..

Remi wrote..
>Come off it Grimer, why do you use such labels reserved for the worst in
society for the best? It all starts from an early age: nerd, misfit, weirdo,
wanker, perv, psycho, tax avoider, self-centred, anti-socialist on an on.

>It's enough to put anyone off excelling which is what happens in low class
communities. It's a form of fascism, lowest common denominator. They
drag            ( note the word  " they" )
everything down, now it's the under achieving middle class educated beyond
their ability doing it.
Remi,
Everyone is responsible for their own conduct.
I'll tell you who "they" is,   "they's they !.. it's always the " other guy'
that did it.
Richard
 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 22 11:15:44 2005
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Toshiba develops fuel cell prototypes for portable music players

Toshiba said Friday it has developed two small direct methanol fuel cell 
prototypes that can dramatically increase the playing time for mobile music 
players. A fuel cell unit the size of a pack of chewing gum can power a 
flash-memory-based player for about 35 hours on a single charge.

The new fuel cell units have an output power of 100mW and 300mW and have 
been applied to a flash-memory-based digital audio player and an HDD-based 
digital audio player, respectively

The 100mW unit, similar in shape and size to a pack of gum at a compact 
W23mm x L75mm x D10mm, can power the flash-based player for approximately 35 
hours on a single 3.5ml charge of highly concentrated methanol, the fuel 
that drives the electricity producing chemical reaction in the fuel cell. 
The 300mW unit is W60mm x L75mm x D10mm and delivers enough power to keep an 
HDD-based audio player running for approximately 60 hours on a single 10ml 
charge.

Both prototype players include components related to the testing and are 
W35mm x L110mm x D20mm (flash memory) and W65mm x L125mm x D27mm (HDD) with 
the fuel cell units. These sizes can be reduced substantially by removing 
the extra components and applying optimal design for commercial products.

The design of the fuel cell units reflects current moves toward 
international standardization of micro fuel cells and meets the 
International Electrotechnical Commission's draft safety standards now under 
review.

Toshiba's DMFC features a passive fuel supply system that is suited to 
smaller fuel cells and use with a highly concentrated methanol solution. 
Fuel cells usually mix methane with water in a concentration of less than 
30%, a dilution that supports generating efficiency but which requires a 
fuel tank that is much too big for portable equipment. Through durability 
and reliability tests with the new units, Toshiba will accelerate technology 
enhancements, including development of production technology, to support 
integration of DMFC into commercial products expected to appear in and after 
2007.

The two prototype players and their methanol cartridges will be exhibited at 
the CEATEC JAPAN 2005 which will be held at Makuhari Messe, Chiba 
Prefecture, from October 4 to 8, 2005.


http://www.physorg.com/news6542.html

_________________________________________________________________
Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! 
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BlankI remarked that many could learn from how Texas A & M " aggies" =
overcome derisive jokes about aggies.

Joke about the aggie, had been attending A & M  20 years without earning =
his engineering degree.. finally the faculty held a rally in Kyle field =
attended by 40 thousand aggies.=20
Faculty announced if the undergraduate answered one exam question =
correctly, they would confer his degree.
=20
Questin was.. how much is 6 plus 4.. long hesitation.. absolute quiet in =
the stands, holding their breath in anticipation,,
finally the student answered in question  form... ten????.

Aggies stick together and all rose together in the stands screaming.. =
GIVE HIM ANOTHER CHANCE !!

If  one knows the wisdom of humor and knows how to correctly apply it, =
one would be as successful as Texas A & M.alumni.
Tell an aggie an aggie joke at your own peril because an aggie comes =
well armed with the very best aggie jokes. They have cultivated the =
remarkable ability to make you laugh with them ,at them ,and in so doing =
cause an endearment toward all aggies.

Richard




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<DIV>I remarked that many could learn from how Texas A &amp; M " aggies" =

overcome derisive jokes about aggies.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Joke about the aggie, had been attending A &amp; M&nbsp; 20 years =
without=20
earning his engineering degree.. finally the faculty held a rally in =
Kyle field=20
attended by 40 thousand aggies. <BR>Faculty announced if the =
undergraduate=20
answered one exam question correctly, they would confer his =
degree.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Questin was.. how much is 6 plus 4.. long hesitation.. absolute =
quiet in=20
the stands, holding their breath in anticipation,,</DIV>
<DIV>finally the student answered in question&nbsp; form... =
ten????.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Aggies stick together and all rose together in the stands =
screaming.. GIVE=20
HIM ANOTHER CHANCE !!</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>If&nbsp;&nbsp;one&nbsp;knows the wisdom of humor and knows how to =
correctly=20
apply it,&nbsp;one would be as successful as Texas A &amp; =
M.alumni.</DIV>
<DIV>Tell an aggie an aggie joke at your own peril because an aggie =
comes well=20
armed with the very best aggie jokes. They have cultivated the =
remarkable=20
ability to make you laugh with them ,at them ,and in so doing cause an=20
endearment toward all aggies.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Richard</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 22 11:45:20 2005
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Frederick Sparber wrote:

> Why not just fly a very large fleet of jumbo jets and military aircraft
> stacked at intervals in the right direction. Their 1800+ exhausts and 
> condensible water vapor from a million barrels of jet fuel ~ 5.5 trillion
> BTU plus it's kinetic energy might make it. ????
 
> Small investment compared to the oil used for evacuating the
> coastal cities.
 
I think this type of thing is worth a try.  If you root around on Bill's
website, I think you can find a reference to the idea that hurricanes
and/or tornados are electrostatically driven.  This might explain
some of the anomalous acceleration.

In which case, you might want to try dropping WWII style chaff, or
aluminum powder to try to short the thing out.  On the other hand,
what if either idea makes it worse?

M.
 


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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 22 12:17:20 2005
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BlankRichard,

"Aggies stick together and all rose together in the stands 
screaming.. GIVE HIM ANOTHER CHANCE !!"

Sounds like something Molly Ivins might have come up with, except 
on the dust jacket an old book, it mentions that one of her 
proudest moments was being tossed off the campus of Texas A&M. 
... she is my mental image of the kind of wit who might be running 
the best little funhouse in the New-Texas, even if the Aggies did 
expel her.

Speaking of "another chance" both humorous and tragic, in the 
context of "sticking together"... this reminds me of the infamous 
"Aggie Bonfire," which had evolved into the world’s largest such 
spectacle, until "calculations failed" and things didn't stick 
together. Guess they had already graduated the kid who could add 
6+4.

Built each fall before the Aggies’ football game with The 
University of Texas, it was supposed to be symbolic of the 
“burning desire” of all Aggies to beat the longhorns...which was a 
rare occurence - and it kept getting bigger as did the heartburn 
of defeat. But during construction of the '99 bonfire, a 
miscalculation and subsequent collapse needlessly claimed the 
lives of 12 students.

Don't know enough time has arisen for a sardonic joke to emerge 
from that one, but here is a another short list of Aggie Jokes (or 
you can insert your favorite "whipping boy" or other pejorative 
icon instead).

In the meantime, think of a good excuse if an Aggie, even Molly, 
asks you over for a Fall Bar-B-Que... like "call me after the 
charcoal is lit."

An Aggie ordered a large pizza and the clerk asked if he should 
cut it in six or twelve slices.  "Six is fine, she said, I could 
never eat twelve pieces."

What's an Aggie's idea of safe sex?
Locking the car door.

Why did the Aggie stare at a frozen orange juice can for 2 hours?
Because it said 'concentrate'.

How do you keep an Aggie busy?
Write 'Please turn over' on both sides of a piece of paper.

Why did the Aggie get so excited after he finished his jigsaw 
puzzle in only 6 months?  Because on the box it said from 2-4 
years.

Why was the Aggie housewife mad at her husband?  He said he was 
going out to shoot craps, and she couldn't remember how to cook 
them.

Why did the Aggie stay up all night studying?
He had a urine test the next day.

....Courtesy of "with friends like that..." in Austin. 

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From: Michael Foster

> Frederick Sparber wrote:

>> Why not just fly a very large fleet of jumbo jets and military 
>> aircraft
>> stacked at intervals in the right direction. Their 1800+ 
>> exhausts and
>> condensible water vapor from a million barrels of jet fuel ~ 
>> 5.5 trillion
>> BTU plus it's kinetic energy might make it. ????

> I think this type of thing is worth a try.  If you root around 
> on Bill's
> website, I think you can find a reference to the idea that 
> hurricanes
> and/or tornados are electrostatically driven.  This might 
> explain
> some of the anomalous acceleration.

> In which case, you might want to try dropping WWII style chaff, 
> or
> aluminum powder to try to short the thing out.  On the other 
> hand,
> what if either idea makes it worse?


... if shorting-out the hurricane charge build-up would do the 
trick of throttling back the system, then why not borrow the new 
military "Helladds" airborne laser defense system....
http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technovel_darpa_lasers_050830.html

and used the laser beam to continually ionize a path to ground 
(water). 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 22 13:25:14 2005
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Jed wrote:

So I guess we'll just rely on
Gasoline at three, uh..four, no..five bucks a gallon
And climate temperatures that soar.



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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 22 14:12:24 2005
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: CF and popular culture, "Outer Limits" episode
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Wikipedia mentions an episode on "Outer Limits" about CF. Here is a synopsis:

http://www.theouterlimits.com/episodes/season4/412.htm

Keywords: CF bomb; evil CF researcher

- Jed


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Michael Foster wrote:
> 
> I think this type of thing is worth a try.  If you root around on Bill's
> website, I think you can find a reference to the idea that hurricanes
> and/or tornados are electrostatically driven.  This might explain
> some of the anomalous acceleration.
>
> In which case, you might want to try dropping WWII style chaff, or
> aluminum powder to try to short the thing out.  On the other hand,
> what if either idea makes it worse?
>
Project Stormfury tried cloud seeding as an attempt to calm a hurricane:

http://www.aoml.noaa.gov/hrd/hrd_sub/sfury.html

"Project STORMFURY was an ambitious experimental program of research on hurricane modification carried out between 1962 and 1983. The proposed modification technique involved artificial stimulation of convection outside the eyewall through seeding with silver iodide."

Lamp Black or Charcoal to get Radiative Cooling tonight?

OTOH, NASA has a stash (tons) of Aluminum powder that is used in
the solid boosters for the Space Shuttle.

Judging by the contrails from the air traffic between Miami and the West Coast
jumbo jet exhaust kinetics/heat seems like the easiest near term option. 

Frederick
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<DIV>Michael Foster wrote:</DIV>
<DIV>&gt; </DIV>
<DIV>&gt; I think this type of thing is worth a try.&nbsp; If you root around on Bill's<BR>&gt; website, I think you can find a reference to the idea that hurricanes<BR>&gt; and/or tornados are electrostatically driven.&nbsp; This might explain<BR>&gt; some of the anomalous acceleration.</DIV>
<DIV>&gt;</DIV>
<DIV>&gt; In which case, you might want to try dropping WWII style chaff, or<BR>&gt; aluminum powder to try to short the thing out.&nbsp; On the other hand,<BR>&gt; what if either idea makes it worse?</DIV>
<DIV>&gt;<BR>Project Stormfury tried cloud seeding as an attempt to calm a hurricane:</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://www.aoml.noaa.gov/hrd/hrd_sub/sfury.html">http://www.aoml.noaa.gov/hrd/hrd_sub/sfury.html</A></DIV>
<DIV><BR>"Project STORMFURY<STRONG> </STRONG>was an ambitious experimental program of research on hurricane modification carried out between 1962 and 1983. The proposed modification technique involved artificial stimulation of convection outside the eyewall through seeding with silver iodide."</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Lamp Black or Charcoal to get Radiative Cooling tonight?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>OTOH, NASA has a stash (tons) of Aluminum powder that is used in</DIV>
<DIV>the solid boosters for the Space Shuttle.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Judging by the contrails from the air traffic between Miami and the West Coast</DIV>
<DIV>jumbo jet exhaust kinetics/heat seems like the easiest near term option.&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Frederick</DIV></BODY></HTML>
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From: John.Rudiger carrier.utc.com
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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Hi all,
 
Regarding retrofitting engines, I was sent this shortcut
http://www.fuellesspower.com/ <http://www.fuellesspower.com/>   by a
colleague.
 
Have any Vorts ever heard of these "fuelless" engines? I had a bit of a look
at the web site but I dont know enough about this technology to judge if
they are trying to pull the wool over our eyes.
 
Can anyone give me some feedback on this please?
 
Regards,
 

John Rudiger 
Perth   WA 

Ph:-    08 9232 7150 
Fax:-  08 9232 7155 

Opportunity awaits the prepared mind. 

-----Original Message-----
From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9 pacbell.net]
Sent: Wednesday, 21 September 2005 2:25 AM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: It ain't fittin, not fittin, it just ain't fittin


oops hit the wrong key
 
 
here is the SPAD picture site:
http://easy.spad.free.fr/0010.htm <http://easy.spad.free.fr/0010.htm> 
 
 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Jones  <mailto:jonesb9 pacbell.net> Beene 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com>  
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2005 11:20 AM
Subject: Re: It ain't fittin, not fittin, it just ain't fittin

 
Here are the better pictures. 
 
It is a 200 kw turbo diesel retrofit for Egypt -  caterpillar 6 cylindres
turbo D343-62B 
 
The only problem is there are no test figures. All very new and open source.
The welded box is the reformer.
 
Where is John Steck?  - he has probably looked into this already on the
samleer scale.
 
Jones
 
 
check out the cartoon at
http://easy.spad.free.fr/index.htm <http://easy.spad.free.fr/index.htm> 


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<DIV><SPAN class=140023805-23092005>Hi all,</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=140023805-23092005></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=140023805-23092005>Regarding retrofitting engines, I was sent 
this shortcut <A 
href="http://www.fuellesspower.com/">http://www.fuellesspower.com/</A>&nbsp; by 
a colleague.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=140023805-23092005></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=140023805-23092005>Have any Vorts&nbsp;ever heard of these 
"fuelless" engines? I had a bit of a look at the web&nbsp;site but I dont know 
enough about this technology to judge if they are trying to pull the wool over 
our eyes.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=140023805-23092005></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=140023805-23092005>Can anyone give me some feedback on this 
please?</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=140023805-23092005></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=140023805-23092005>Regards,</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<P>John Rudiger <BR>Perth&nbsp;&nbsp; WA </P>
<P>Ph:-&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 08 9232 7150 <BR>Fax:-&nbsp; 08 9232 7155 </P>
<P>Opportunity awaits the prepared mind. </P>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT 
  face=Tahoma>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Jones Beene 
  [mailto:jonesb9 pacbell.net]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, 21 September 2005 2:25 
  AM<BR><B>To:</B> vortex-l eskimo.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: It ain't fittin, 
  not fittin, it just ain't fittin<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>oops hit the wrong key</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>here is the SPAD picture site:</DIV>
  <DIV><A 
  href="http://easy.spad.free.fr/0010.htm">http://easy.spad.free.fr/0010.htm</A></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr 
  style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
    <DIV 
    style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> 
    <A title=jonesb9 pacbell.net href="mailto:jonesb9@pacbell.net">Jones 
    Beene</A> </DIV>
    <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=vortex-l eskimo.com 
    href="mailto:vortex-l eskimo.com">vortex-l@eskimo.com</A> </DIV>
    <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, September 20, 2005 11:20 
    AM</DIV>
    <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: It ain't fittin, not 
    fittin, it just ain't fittin</DIV>
    <DIV><BR></DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>Here are the better pictures. </DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>It is a 200 kw turbo diesel retrofit for Egypt -&nbsp;<!--StartFragment --> caterpillar 6 cylindres turbo D343-62B </DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>The only problem is there are no test figures. All very new and open 
    source. The welded box is the reformer.</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>Where is John Steck? &nbsp;- he has probably looked into this already 
    on the samleer scale.</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>Jones</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>check out the cartoon at</DIV>
    <DIV><A 
    href="http://easy.spad.free.fr/index.htm">http://easy.spad.free.fr/index.htm</A></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 22 23:36:32 2005
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Hey Vorts,

Your response to sponsor my talk was terrific - we came within $120 of 
breakeven!

Thanks for jumping in to help and participate.

Steven

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Subject: Re: Compressed air car
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Moin!

When I was younger (20's and 30's), I did quite a lot of bicycling, both
commuting to work, and long distance vacation riding.  One of the joys
of traveling by bicycle as compared to driving a car was being in more
direct contact with my surroundings - the feel of the wind, no visual
obstructions, unhindered auditory input, etc..  In fact, I attributed
much of my ability to survive on the road to the heightened sensual
awareness that the vehicle itself afforded.

In retrospect, I do admit that there were many additional dangers and
discomforts that came along with riding a bike.  I do know of a couple
of people who had some pretty bad accidents, but for me and for nearly
all of the other people that I have talked to who have taken up
bicycling as an alternative to driving, the good experiences and
benefits have far outweighed the bad.

I took a look at these "shelled bicycles" than this outfit is offering,
and I can't imagine riding in one, especially in summer.  I think I
would much prefer getting splashed occasionally or soaked in a downpour
than having to exert myself in one of these fiberglass bubbles.  If the
bike were electric, I could see the possible advantages, but even in
winter, I think I would rather ride an uncovered bike.

One thing that did interest me though, was one of the photos in the
photo gallery.  There is one of these bubble bikes parked next to what
looks like a red, 3 wheeled automobile.  The car looks cooler than all
get out!  Anyone know what it is?

Knuke


On Thu, 2005-09-22 at 09:33 -0700, Jones Beene wrote:
> Jed Rothwell,
>=20
> > These are micro-cars, smaller than a Mini Cooper. As I say, it=20
> > is safer than a bicycle. Probably cleaner and dryer too. When I=20
> > was riding a bicycle this morning, a construction site water=20
> > truck sprayed me with water and mud.
>=20
>=20
> The answer to that problem is at hand...
>=20
> http://www.cab-bike.com/=20
>=20

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At 05:11 pm 22/09/2005 -0400, Jed wrote:
>Wikipedia mentions an episode on "Outer Limits" about CF. Here is a synopsis:
>
>http://www.theouterlimits.com/episodes/season4/412.htm
>
>Keywords: CF bomb; evil CF researcher


Not as good as the film Chain Reaction - but I suppose
          "no publicity is bad publicity".

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Sorry to keep harping on about this but, as some may remember, as a past =
area coordinator for the Friends of the Earth environmental group, I =
have been calling global warming deniers and those who think they have =
logical arguments that suggest we don't need to do anything, morons and =
insane for quite a while now. It's nice to have some heavyweight support =
from the Royal Commission on Environmental Pollution!

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/09/23/climate.scientist.reut/
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Sorry to keep harping on about this =
but, as some=20
may remember, as a past area coordinator for the Friends of the Earth=20
environmental group, I have been calling global warming deniers and =
those who=20
think they have logical arguments that suggest we don't need to do =
anything,=20
morons and insane for quite&nbsp;a while now. It's nice to have some =
heavyweight=20
support from the Royal Commission on Environmental =
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
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> From: John.Rudiger

> Hi all,
>  
> Regarding retrofitting engines, I was sent this shortcut
> http://www.fuellesspower.com/ <http://www.fuellesspower.com/> 
> by a colleague.
>  
> Have any Vorts ever heard of these "fuelless" engines? 
> I had a bit of a look at the web site but I dont know
> enough about this technology to judge if they are trying
> to pull the wool over our eyes.
>  
> Can anyone give me some feedback on this please?
>  
> Regards,
>  
> 
> John Rudiger 
> Perth   WA 


Ah, I see the photo link shows the "device" sitting next to a pyramid. Pyramids always add an air of respectability to whatever is being sold.

Sprinkle in a few intriguing comments to add an air of suspense, like:

"We are selling information that has been suppressed for many years and is still being suppressed to this day! There are many people who do not want free energy devices to be manufactured or sold on the open market."

...and you have a product guaranteed to draw interest among the crowds desperately looking for a way out of our current energy crisis.

IMHO, if you have $40 - $70 that you're willing to fritter away this might be an interesting project worth undertaking - and I mean that most seriously.

One caveat, since they only selling plans (and a video) it does seem to me that it would be easy for them to claim that you simply did not follow the instructions properly and that they can't be held responsible for the incompetence of others when you later demand your money back.

I do see an alternative rationale for spending 70 bucks on the product plans. Document as carefully as possible the construction and testing of the device so that when it doesn't perform as advertised you can advertise this fact on-line widely as possible to the public.

But hey! If on the remote chance that it DOES work, it's a win-win situation for you! Spending $70 on a real educational experience is a damn cheap investment.

Well, that's my personal take.

Don't hesitate to ask for the opinions of others as well.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

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BlankJohn,

You should read Sterling's site:
http://freeenergynews.com/Directory/Organizations/FuellessPower/

Look at this as a tax on ignorance. These are repackaged plan from Rex =
and from the public domain, apparently poorly done at that.

Jones

Barnum was right





  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: John.Rudiger carrier.utc.com=20
  To: vortex-l eskimo.com=20
  Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 10:38 PM
  Subject: RE: It ain't fittin, not fittin, it just ain't fittin


  Hi all,

  Regarding retrofitting engines, I was sent this shortcut =
http://www.fuellesspower.com/  by a colleague.

  Have any Vorts ever heard of these "fuelless" engines? I had a bit of =
a look at the web site but I dont know enough about this technology to =
judge if they are trying to pull the wool over our eyes.

  Can anyone give me some feedback on this please?

  Regards,

  John Rudiger=20
  Perth   WA=20

  Ph:-    08 9232 7150=20
  Fax:-  08 9232 7155=20

  Opportunity awaits the prepared mind.=20

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9 pacbell.net]
    Sent: Wednesday, 21 September 2005 2:25 AM
    To: vortex-l eskimo.com
    Subject: Re: It ain't fittin, not fittin, it just ain't fittin


    oops hit the wrong key


    here is the SPAD picture site:
    http://easy.spad.free.fr/0010.htm


      ----- Original Message -----=20
      From: Jones Beene=20
      To: vortex-l eskimo.com=20
      Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2005 11:20 AM
      Subject: Re: It ain't fittin, not fittin, it just ain't fittin



      Here are the better pictures.=20

      It is a 200 kw turbo diesel retrofit for Egypt -  caterpillar 6 =
cylindres turbo D343-62B=20

      The only problem is there are no test figures. All very new and =
open source. The welded box is the reformer.

      Where is John Steck?  - he has probably looked into this already =
on the samleer scale.

      Jones


      check out the cartoon at
      http://easy.spad.free.fr/index.htm
------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C5C012.185A90E0
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<HTML><HEAD><TITLE id=3DridTitle>Blank</TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1"><BASE=20
href=3D"file://E:\Program Files\Common Files\Microsoft =
Shared\Stationery\">
<STYLE>BODY {
	MARGIN-TOP: 25px; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 25px; COLOR: #000000; =
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<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2722" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY id=3DridBody bgColor=3D#ffffff =
background=3Dcid:140023805 23092005-15d3>
<DIV>John,</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>You should read Sterling's site:</DIV>
<DIV><A=20
href=3D"http://freeenergynews.com/Directory/Organizations/FuellessPower/"=
>http://freeenergynews.com/Directory/Organizations/FuellessPower/</A><A=20
href=3D"http://66.102.7.104/search?q=3Dcache:1WVH0pLnDe0J:freeenergynews.=
com/Directory/Organizations/FuellessPower/+fuellesspower+fraud&amp;hl=3De=
n&amp;client=3Dfirefox-a"></A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Look at this as a tax on ignorance. These are repackaged plan from =
Rex and=20
from the public domain,&nbsp;apparently poorly done at that.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Jones</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Barnum was right</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3DJohn.Rudiger carrier.utc.com=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:John.Rudiger carrier.utc.com">John.Rudiger@carrier.utc.com=
</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dvortex-l eskimo.com=20
  href=3D"mailto:vortex-l eskimo.com">vortex-l@eskimo.com</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, September 22, =
2005 10:38=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: It ain't fittin, =
not fittin,=20
  it just ain't fittin</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D140023805-23092005>Hi all,</SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D140023805-23092005></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D140023805-23092005>Regarding retrofitting engines, =
I was sent=20
  this shortcut <A=20
  =
href=3D"http://www.fuellesspower.com/">http://www.fuellesspower.com/</A>&=
nbsp;=20
  by a colleague.</SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D140023805-23092005></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D140023805-23092005>Have any Vorts&nbsp;ever heard =
of these=20
  "fuelless" engines? I had a bit of a look at the web&nbsp;site but I =
dont know=20
  enough about this technology to judge if they are trying to pull the =
wool over=20
  our eyes.</SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D140023805-23092005></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D140023805-23092005>Can anyone give me some feedback =
on this=20
  please?</SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D140023805-23092005></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D140023805-23092005>Regards,</SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <P>John Rudiger <BR>Perth&nbsp;&nbsp; WA </P>
  <P>Ph:-&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 08 9232 7150 <BR>Fax:-&nbsp; 08 9232 7155 =
</P>
  <P>Opportunity awaits the prepared mind. </P>
  <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT=20
    face=3DTahoma>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Jones Beene =

    [mailto:jonesb9 pacbell.net]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, 21 September =
2005=20
    2:25 AM<BR><B>To:</B> vortex-l eskimo.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: It =
ain't=20
    fittin, not fittin, it just ain't fittin<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV>oops hit the wrong key</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>here is the SPAD picture site:</DIV>
    <DIV><A=20
    =
href=3D"http://easy.spad.free.fr/0010.htm">http://easy.spad.free.fr/0010.=
htm</A></DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
    style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
      <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- =
</DIV>
      <DIV=20
      style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
      <A title=3Djonesb9 pacbell.net =
href=3D"mailto:jonesb9 pacbell.net">Jones=20
      Beene</A> </DIV>
      <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dvortex-l eskimo.com=20
      href=3D"mailto:vortex-l eskimo.com">vortex-l@eskimo.com</A> </DIV>
      <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, September =
20, 2005=20
      11:20 AM</DIV>
      <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: It ain't =
fittin, not=20
      fittin, it just ain't fittin</DIV>
      <DIV><BR></DIV>
      <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
      <DIV>Here are the better pictures. </DIV>
      <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
      <DIV>It is a 200 kw turbo diesel retrofit for Egypt =
-&nbsp;<!--StartFragment --> caterpillar 6 cylindres turbo D343-62B =
</DIV>
      <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
      <DIV>The only problem is there are no test figures. All very new =
and open=20
      source. The welded box is the reformer.</DIV>
      <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
      <DIV>Where is John Steck? &nbsp;- he has probably looked into this =
already=20
      on the samleer scale.</DIV>
      <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
      <DIV>Jones</DIV>
      <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
      <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
      <DIV>check out the cartoon at</DIV>
      <DIV><A=20
      =
href=3D"http://easy.spad.free.fr/index.htm">http://easy.spad.free.fr/inde=
x.htm</A></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 23 07:42:01 2005
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Do not send "Creative Science"  any money! 

-----Original Message-----
From: OrionWorks [mailto:orionworks charter.net] 
Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 10:30 AM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Cc: orionworks charter.net
Subject: RE: It ain't fittin, not fittin, it just ain't fittin

> From: John.Rudiger

> Hi all,
>  
> Regarding retrofitting engines, I was sent this shortcut 
> http://www.fuellesspower.com/ <http://www.fuellesspower.com/> by a 
> colleague.
>  
> Have any Vorts ever heard of these "fuelless" engines? 
> I had a bit of a look at the web site but I dont know enough about 
> this technology to judge if they are trying to pull the wool over our 
> eyes.
>  
> Can anyone give me some feedback on this please?
>  
> Regards,
>  
> 
> John Rudiger 
> Perth   WA 


Ah, I see the photo link shows the "device" sitting next to a pyramid.
Pyramids always add an air of respectability to whatever is being sold.

Sprinkle in a few intriguing comments to add an air of suspense, like:

"We are selling information that has been suppressed for many years and
is still being suppressed to this day! There are many people who do not
want free energy devices to be manufactured or sold on the open market."

...and you have a product guaranteed to draw interest among the crowds
desperately looking for a way out of our current energy crisis.

IMHO, if you have $40 - $70 that you're willing to fritter away this
might be an interesting project worth undertaking - and I mean that most
seriously.

One caveat, since they only selling plans (and a video) it does seem to
me that it would be easy for them to claim that you simply did not
follow the instructions properly and that they can't be held responsible
for the incompetence of others when you later demand your money back.

I do see an alternative rationale for spending 70 bucks on the product
plans. Document as carefully as possible the construction and testing of
the device so that when it doesn't perform as advertised you can
advertise this fact on-line widely as possible to the public.

But hey! If on the remote chance that it DOES work, it's a win-win
situation for you! Spending $70 on a real educational experience is a
damn cheap investment.

Well, that's my personal take.

Don't hesitate to ask for the opinions of others as well.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 23 07:46:39 2005
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From: "Alex Caliostro" <caliostro1795 hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: RE: It ain't fittin, not fittin, it just ain't fittin
Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 08:45:09 -0600
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>From: John.Rudiger carrier.utc.com

>Can anyone give me some feedback on this please?

this is probably the howard johnson magnetic motor -- this site shows you 
how to get the plans for free

http://www.zpenergy.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=174

-alex

_________________________________________________________________
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Subject: Russian Vortex
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Posted on OUPower.com
By dhillfort

Stories on:

http://www.fuelcellsworks.com/Supppage3478.html

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/09/two_onboard_wat.html

http://www.fuelcellsworks.com/Supppage3485.html

http://www.people.co.uk/news/tm_objectid=16143986&method=full&siteid=93463&h
eadline=h-2-oil--name_page.html

H 2 OIL!
Blair plans WATER-fuelled cars
By Nigel Nelson
TONY Blair wants to turn Britain into the biggest producer of WATER-
powered cars - slashing the cost of motoring to an incredible penny a
mile.

Ministers will announce on Tuesday they are setting up a new UK
company to produce the revolutionary vehicles.

The firm, OM Energy Ltd, will be partly funded by the Government.

The new cars will work by using a small amount of petrol to turn
large amounts of water into hydrogen. The exciting breakthrough comes
as petrol hit a pound a litre.

A top Whitehall insider explained: "There have been hydrogen cars
before but until now it was too dangerous due to a risk of explosion.

"The beauty of this new system is that you convert water into
hydrogen in the car, which is much safer.

"It's pure genius. Water is made from two hydrogen atoms and one
oxygen atom and called H20. This new process will efficiently
separate the H from the O.

"The implications for energy saving are huge. I can't tell you how
excited we are."

The technique has been developed by Russian scientists lured to the
UK.

Whitehall officials refuse to say how much taxpayers' money has been
pumped into the new company but it is understood to be millions.

OM Energy has already filed for a worldwide patent of their new
system. Eventually it could also be used to power ships by sea water.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 23 08:32:19 2005
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Tony Blair said what?!? Oy veh.

- Jed


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Tony Blair said what?

Oy veh! My experts must have missed that patent....
 http://tinyurl.com/dmcpe 



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 23 08:42:28 2005
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Subject: Re: Russian Vortex
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But it must be true 
It was in The People !!
even if the journalist was illiterate.
John
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jed Rothwell" <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
To: <vortex-L eskimo.com>
Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 11:27 PM
Subject: Re: Russian Vortex


> Tony Blair said what?!? Oy veh.
> 
> - Jed
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 23 09:52:06 2005
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Jones Beene wrote:

> Tony Blair said what?
>
> Oy veh! My experts must have missed that patent....
> http://tinyurl.com/dmcpe
>
>
OK let me check my chemistry. Hydrocarbon plus water to CO2 and 
hydrogen. The reformer uses energy so it can't be more efficient than 
say a normal car and its still making greenhouse gases. If its only a 
small amount of hydrocarbons then they hiding something up their 
sleaves; browns gas perhaps? Always wondered what that would do in a 
rerformer. Oops just remembered I failed chemistry.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 23 10:25:33 2005
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From: "Alex Caliostro" <caliostro1795 hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: katrina boosts hybrid demand - duh!
Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 11:24:18 -0600
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Toyota: Katrina drove up hybrid demand

Toyota U.S. exec: Prius inventory now counted in hours, not days.
September 23, 2005; Posted: 11:55 a.m. EDT (1555 GMT)

DETROIT (Reuters) - Toyota Motor Corp. has seen a rise in demand for hybrid 
vehicles in the United States in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina as 
consumers seek more mileage out of $3-gallon gasoline, a top official said 
on Thursday.

"At the end of last month, we had a 20-hour supply of the Prius (hybrid 
sedan)," Jim Press, head of Toyota's U.S. operations, said at the Reuters 
Autos Summit, held in Detroit. "We no longer count in days."

Japan's top auto maker, a pioneer in gasoline-electric hybrid vehicles, has 
enjoyed booming sales in the world's biggest car market thanks to the 
popularity of its hybrid models, now also offered in the sport utility 
vehicle segment through the Highlander and Lexus RX400h.

"Our hybrid SUVs allow customers to have their SUVs and be responsible at 
the same time, and we've seen (demand) really accelerate since Katrina," 
Press, president of Toyota Motor Sales U.S.A., said, adding that the waiting 
list was growing for its hybrid SUVs.

"It isn't that people aren't buying SUVs -- they've shifted their segment 
preference into mid-size and small SUVs, and now into hybrid SUVs."

Press's comments come on the heels of Ford Motor Co.'s announcement a day 
earlier for plans to boost its total hybrid output tenfold in five years as 
it hopes to win back lost market share in its home turf.

Ford, recently overtaken by Toyota as the world's second-biggest automaker, 
plans to build about 250,000 hybrid vehicles globally -- roughly what its 
Japanese rival aims to sell this year.

Ford Chief Operating Officer Jim Padilla told Reuters this week that a 
shortage of specialized hybrid components was holding back its volumes 
partly due to the "predatory" approach taken by some Japanese automakers. 
(Click here for that story.)

Press disputed that view.

"I can't imagine that. Last time I looked, the (Ford) Escape (hybrid SUV) 
didn't have a 20-hour supply," he said.

Despite the growing popularity of hybrids in the United States, they still 
account for just 1.3 percent of the light vehicle market, partly due to the 
extra thousands of dollars consumers pay over the price of conventional 
gasoline engines.

Press said those price premiums would come down to as little as $1,000, 
probably in the next decade, as per-unit production costs fall with growing 
volumes. He noted that a hybrid Highlander now costs an extra $3,800 to 
$3,900.

Toyota officials said the waiting list for its hybrid models was averaging 
"a few months," and that Toyota expected to sell around 150,000 units in the 
United States in 2006, excluding the Lexus GS hybrid and others in the 
pipeline.

Volumes are expected to balloon with the production of the hybrid version of 
the Camry sedan -- America's top-selling car -- starting late next year.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/AUTOS/09/23/bc.autos.summit.toyota.hybrids.reut/index.html

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Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

One could envision a natural 25,000 year cycle of global warming caused by
methane and CO2 release due to biological activity and fires with subsequent ice ages .

Would water vapor from oxidation of methane (CH4) produce a high
altitude cloud formation/ice albedo?

Are we speeding up such a cycle?


http://www.physicalgeography.net/fundamentals/7f.html

http://nsidc.org/arcticmet/patterns/feedback_loops.html
Temperature—Cloud Cover—Radiation Feedbacks
" Feedbacks between temperature, cloud cover and radiation are potentially important agents of climate change. However, they are not well understood and research in this area is active."
" It is thought that if climate warms, evaporation will also increase, in turn increasing cloud cover. Because clouds have high albedo, more cloud cover will increase the earth's albedo and reduce the amount of solar radiation absorbed at the surface. Clouds should therefore inhibit further rises in temperature. This temperature—cloud cover—radiation feedback is negative as the initial temperature change is dampened."
" However, cloud cover also acts as a blanket to inhibit loss of longwave radiation from the earth's atmosphere. By this process, an increase in temperature leading to an increase in cloud cover could lead to a further increase in temperature - a positive feedback."
" Knowing which process dominates is a complex issue. Cloud type plays a strong role, as do cloud water content and particle size. Another factor is whether the cloud albedo is higher or lower than that of the surface. Research indicates that the effect of this feedback in the Arctic may be different than in other latitudes. Except in summer, arctic clouds seem to have a warming effect. This is because the blanket effect of clouds tends to dominate over reductions in shortwave radiation to the surface caused by the high cloud albedo."
Frederick
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8
Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

<HTML style="FONT-SIZE: x-small; FONT-FAMILY: MS Sans Serif"><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=windows-1251">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<P>
<DIV>One could envision a natural 25,000 year cycle of global warming caused by</DIV>
<DIV>methane and CO2 release due to biological activity and fires with subsequent ice ages .</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Would water vapor from oxidation of methane (CH4) produce a high</DIV>
<DIV>altitude cloud formation/ice albedo?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Are we speeding up such a cycle?</DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://www.physicalgeography.net/fundamentals/7f.html">http://www.physicalgeography.net/fundamentals/7f.html</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://nsidc.org/arcticmet/patterns/feedback_loops.html">http://nsidc.org/arcticmet/patterns/feedback_loops.html</A></DIV>
<DIV>
<H3><FONT size=2>Temperature—Cloud Cover—Radiation Feedbacks</FONT></H3>
<P>" Feedbacks between temperature, cloud cover and radiation are potentially important agents of climate change. However, they are not well understood and research in this area is active."</P>
<P>" It is thought that if climate warms, evaporation will also increase, in turn increasing cloud cover. Because clouds have high albedo, more cloud cover will increase the earth's albedo and reduce the amount of solar radiation absorbed at the surface. Clouds should therefore inhibit further rises in temperature. This temperature—cloud cover—radiation feedback is negative as the initial temperature change is dampened."</P>
<P>" However, cloud cover also acts as a blanket to inhibit loss of longwave radiation from the earth's atmosphere. By this process, an increase in temperature leading to an increase in cloud cover could lead to a further increase in temperature - a positive feedback."</P>
<P>" Knowing which process dominates is a complex issue. Cloud type plays a strong role, as do cloud water content and particle size. Another factor is whether the cloud albedo is higher or lower than that of the surface. Research indicates that the effect of this feedback in the Arctic may be different than in other latitudes. Except in summer, arctic clouds seem to have a warming effect. This is because the blanket effect of clouds tends to dominate over reductions in shortwave radiation to the surface caused by the high cloud albedo."</P>
<P>Frederick</P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<P></P></BODY></HTML>
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From: "John Harris" <jfhdally agn.net.au>
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Subject: Re: Russian Vortex
Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 01:39:50 +0800
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If this story can be sort of interpreted it seems that this is not reformer
technology.
It seems the hydrogen is being seperated from H20 and burned along with
hydrocarbons.
Regards
JohnH
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jones Beene" <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 11:37 PM
Subject: Re: Russian Vortex


> Tony Blair said what?
>
> Oy veh! My experts must have missed that patent....
>  http://tinyurl.com/dmcpe
>
>
>
>


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 23 11:39:51 2005
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From: "Alex Caliostro" <caliostro1795 hotmail.com>
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Subject: project stormfury
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http://www.aoml.noaa.gov/hrd/hrd_sub/stormfury_era.html

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 23 11:43:22 2005
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Message-ID: <20050923183941.20723.qmail web32203.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 11:39:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: Merlyn <merlyn_3k yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: CF and popular culture, "Outer Limits" episode
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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I vaguely remember that episode, it started with a
college physics test, having a question which stated
"Explain in your own words why cold fusion is
impossible" or some such.  One student, after some
furious figuring, wrote that it was possible.  He
flunked.  6-mos to a year later he comes back having
spent the intervening time locked in his lab
tinkering, with a CF bomb, to prove that it is
possible.  As I recall he never intended to use it,
but it was accidently set off and destroyed the
lecture hall and very little else.

--- Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com> wrote:

> Wikipedia mentions an episode on "Outer Limits"
> about CF. Here is a synopsis:
> 
>
http://www.theouterlimits.com/episodes/season4/412.htm
> 
> Keywords: CF bomb; evil CF researcher
> 
> - Jed
> 
> 
> 


Merlyn
Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist

__________________________________________________
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 23 11:46:36 2005
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Subject: Re: Russian Vortex
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Wesley,

> OK let me check my chemistry. Hydrocarbon plus water to CO2 and =
hydrogen.

Not that simple. You must have been playing "hooky" (as we say in =
states), the day your chem prof mentioned carbon monoxide, hydronium =
ions, nitrogen hydride and hydrogen peroxide ions, and the numerous =
(about 30) intermediates. These intermediates have a short lifetime - =
but coincidentally - a slightly longer lifetime than the transit time =
from the reformer to the ICE power stroke. The only problem is avoiding =
premature ignition (keeping the mix very "lean")

> The reformer uses energy so it can't be more efficient than=20
> say a normal car and its still making greenhouse gases.=20

Totally wrong logic. The reformer can use energy at close to 100% =
efficiency, if necessary (it often isn't even necessary as there is a =
great surplus of unused heat). All of the reformer heat of can come from =
unused exhaust heat, but even that is unnecessary as it takes remarkably =
little heat to reform gasoline. The auto engine of the car is at only =
25% eff. using gasoline in an ICE, because for one thing the unburned =
hydrocarbons are as much as 15%, depending on RPM. And for another thing =
the compressibility of CO2 makes it an poor medium to use for Carnot =
expansion. Steam is about 40% more effective for expanding than CO2 and =
consequently, a hydrogen powered ICE like the Ford Focus.

Too much heat at high pressure, can and is *wasted* all the time in an =
IC engine. One only needs enough heat to insure complete combustion and =
to raise gas pressure in the cylinder to the optimum level, which is =
surprisingly low. Here's an off-beat spin on ICE thermodynamics, that =
even if you understand what "critical pressure" is all about, may not =
have registered. =20

In the critical region, gases can become so compressible that they loose =
their ability to transfer their heat energy dynamically to the =
surroundings. And some gases get to that state PDQ. Carbon dioxide, for =
instance, has a *critical pressure* of only a measly ~1000 psi, over =
three times lower than steam, and it has a molecular weight that is way =
over double steam and a velocity that is tortoise-like in comparison. In =
short, it's probably the worst medium for converting heat from =
combustion into mechanical energy that one could imagine. Its a miracle =
in itself that an IC engine burning hydrocarbon can even get to 25% =
efficiency.

The Ideal Gas Law was first written in 1834 by Emil Clapeyron. Because =
it is a simple linear relationship, and works well at STP, it has misled =
many people to think thermodynamics is a firm and clear-cut. science.  =
Unfortunately, the Gas Law doesn't work in any situation where actual =
combustion takes place. And it takes no account of thermochemical =
interaction, especially of short-lived intermediate species..

A typical IC engine requires a compression ratio of 10-1 to get up to =
85%complete combustion of hydrocarbons (that's about the max, so there =
is usually 15% wasted off the top because of the strong molecular =
bonding of hydrocarbons) but when you burn hydrogen, you can get =
near-complete combustion at far less than the150 psi needed for =
gasoline. The ~1000 psi critical pressure for CO2 is only about 6 times =
higher then the compressed gas in the IC cylinder, so in practice - lets =
say that x-amount of calories from burning carbon will raise the gas =
pressure from 150 to 1000, then adding more is basically a waste. =
Catch-22, if you try to ignite x amount, it often won't even burn, so =
you have to use 3x just to get ignition. Do you see the problem here? =
You have already expended three times more fuel than you needed to raise =
the temperature of the gas to the optimum level, and that extra heat you =
added cannot be returned efficiently because the CO2 has exceeded it =
critical pressure.=20

It's not that grim in practice because as the piston goes down and =
pressure drops, more and more of the formerly wasted heat can be =
returned. But because of these insane requirements, we have been misled =
into thinking that high compression is efficient, when in truth it is =
only efficient  because we had to use carbon in the fuel. It would be =
far more efficient to use a lower compression ratio and a better fuel =
for the ICE ! HYDROGEN ! Forget your fuel cell. The ICE can be just as =
efficient in normal use burning hydrogen.

>If its only a small amount of hydrocarbons then they hiding something =
up their=20
> sleeves; browns gas perhaps?=20

On this you may be correct. There are some alternative hypothetical =
sources for the "extra" energy of water-reformed fuels (I am enclosing =
an old postings FWIW below)

> Always wondered what that would do in a  reformer. Oops just =
remembered I failed chemistry.

Ah....=20

....then here is more speculation and fringe information than you could =
possibly want, but given the magic of cut-and-paste, is very easy for me =
to forward. The following is a paraphrased collection thoughts taken =
from various past internet postings, which may provide an even more =
confused picture of where we are going with some of these "fringe" =
water-fuel theories. Basically, there are numerous possibilities that =
exist now for locating a source of "excess energy" or "free energy" =
which may exist in some water-fuel concepts like "aqua-fuel" TM or this =
Russian copy-cat stuff.=20

Some possibilities we have considered for putative OU (overunity) in =
hydrogen combustion (or water-reformed gasoline) include:

1) "beta-aether" (ZPE, Casimir) this includes "brittle mechanical =
failure"=20
    due to Casimir
2) Any number of QM low-probability interactions involving the proton, =
such
     as quantum tunneling
3) Hydrino...  the "below ground state" hydrogen isomer
4) EVs (the "charge cluster" electron phenomena of Ken Shoulders)...
5) Some variation of LENR (low energy nuclear reaction) phenomena
     involving the deuterons in water (such as deuterium "stripping")
6) Other "quasi-nuclear" or "supra-chemical" phenomena that have not =
been researched
    such as F. Sparber's electronium triad (*e-)

But MOST probably: we are dealing with a m=E9lange - an accumulated =
range of lower probability interactions (QM based) between several, of =
the above mechanisms... on top of very advantageous chemistry which is =
not seen with straight hydrocarbon combustion.

Unfortunately, nobody likes to consider the possibility that numerous =
highly speculative new mechanisms, none of which are that =
well-understood or widely accepted, could be at work in the (seemingly) =
simplest of (actually complicated) devices... The bottom line is in the =
results.

I think now we are seeing real results, so that makes some of the =
following less than speculative. "Reductionism" in science probably =
reached its limits with Quantum Mechanics, and now we must start to =
logically rebuilt the complexity we were once so desirous of =
eliminating... such as by tying in QM to real combustion chemistry. The =
only three reductionist principles that seem to be at work in the =
utilization of water-enhanced-fuel are firstly, a VACUUM, or partial =
vacuum, especially a vacuum resulting in PHASE CHANGE of water, =
particularly a phase-change that is juxtaposed instantaneously against =
an ELECTRIC FIELD...such as Redox changes due to carbonate acidity and =
peroxide bases. This must be immediately followed by compression to the =
extent that Casimir forces come into play, if not the hydrino. The =
vacuum-collapse sequence is also seen in sonoluminescence.

Randell Mills' has developed a complete theory of "below ground state" =
hydrogen, which suggests that when properly catalyzed, hydrogen can =
deliver more energy than the energy of combustion. The website is =
thorough and complex (and occasionally wrong) in both theory and =
application:
http://www.blacklightpower.com/

It would take a very intelligent person a great deal of time to digest =
these details, many of which are in error, but it is worth the effort, =
even in the context of an automotive ICE, and fuel reforming, which =
cannot be covered by Mills patents. But before investing too much time =
in this, have a look at this graphic representation of something even =
more far-out - exploding water - an "Ice Bomb" :
http://genchem.chem.wisc.edu/demonstrations/Gen_Chem_Pages/10liquidsnsoli=
dpage/ice_bomb.htm

The ice bomb explosion shown here is not particularly violent but it =
does fracture an iron sphere - it is offered as a metaphor for the more =
numerous mini-ice-capacitor-bombs that may result when electrolyzed =
water vapor (with or without hydrocarbons) is entrained in the air =
intake of an ICE (internal combustion engine) is made to explode. This =
is part of the success of the Zenion experiments, mentioned by Mark =
Goldes where over 100 MPG was seen.

Every mole of water (18 grams) can contain as many as 10^18 of these =
mini-bombs that can be forced by a vacuum into a phase change - going =
from liquid to gas (via transient nanometer solid ice), possibly =
encapsulating an electric charge, and then immediately sublimating into =
gas. On expanding to 1000 times its previous volume, driving the piston =
of the ICE, while at the same time, seeming to circumvent thermodynamic =
"laws" we can also suggest that nascent hydrogen, i.e a bare proton just =
as it is split-off from a water molecule, can under certain =
circumstances be induced by added "charge" to give up more energy than =
it does in normal combustion. This might be facilitated by dropping =
below the normal ground state into a "hydrino," and transferring a high =
energy UV photon in the process.=20

The hydrino forming process may be the consequence of "beta-aether" =
pressure combined with partial-vacuum electrolysis. This idea goes =
beyond Randell Mills' theory, but accepts the reality of the hydrino, =
which has enough electron affinity to either form a hydride having an =
ionization energy of about .7 eV, or far more likely, to bond to the =
negative polar end of a water molecule, giving a hydronium molecule, =
H2O-Hy which is closer to a true *molecule,* than an ion, and which is =
stable to .7 eV.=20

The photon emitted is the just the right energy to be immediately =
recaptured, so the process can repeat itself several times, but there =
are enough losses that the mechanism cannot be a self-sustaining chain =
reaction. BUT the beauty of this proposed mechanism is that phase change =
can occur at two different locations in a converted ICE: first in the =
electrolysis chamber and secondly in the combustion chamber itself, =
using the two different phase changes of H2O. In both locations we find =
the two needed ingredients for the anomaly: water phase change and an =
electric field.

As mentioned, once electrolysis begins AT A PARTIAL VACUUM, some few =
hydrinos will be formed. Hydrino formation requires a vacuum to be =
efficient.  The UV photons emitted are just at the right energy to be =
absorbed by more water vapor to split off more protons, to repeat the =
process whenever three nascent protons are juxtaposed. This reaction, =
and others, goes on in the electrolysis or reformer cell, adjacent to =
the intake port.=20

Immediately after intake, in the combustion chamber, when a spark or =
other arc discharge ignites the hydronium + hydrogen peroxide + O2 =
+other short-lived chemicals which have previously been created in the =
electrolysis chamber, then more hydrinos and more UV can be created and =
subsequently absorbed by the "mini-ice-bombs," accelerating their =
expansion at a rate that is in keeping with the several thousand RPMs of =
an ICE (normally, the expansion reaction would be too slow). =20

Under these circumstances, this UV radiation from hydrino formation is =
adequate to accelerate the rapid heating of a solid, such as finely =
divided water-ice so that it sublimates very quickly with cavitation =
effects. In the process, pressure is converted into mechanical energy by =
means of a resultant high-ratio expansion of a solid into a gas to drive =
a piston or turbine. And you will find none of this in any textbook....

The following is an abstract from Hiroshi Yamamoto which deals with =
hydrino formation in the presence of oxygen ions.

A CATALYTIC ROLE OF ATOMIC OXYGEN ON ANOMALOUS HEAT GENERATION

Introduction

Dr. Randell Mills demonstrated that hydrogen atoms can achieve lower =
states than ground state by a resonant collision with a near by atom or
combination of atoms having the capability to absorb the energy to =
effect the transition, namely, an integer multiple of the potential =
energy of
atomic hydrogen, m(27.2eV) (m=3Dinteger) (1) .

He named this shrunken hydrogen atom "hydrino" and claims that this =
hydrino can be a catalyst to shrink other hydrinos to further lower =
states. More attention is now being paid to neutron like particles for =
the initiation of cold fusion. It is  anticipated that well shrunken =
"hydrinos" can be deemed as quasi-neutrons because the electron with a =
tighter orbit can neutralize the positive charge of proton.

A catalytic role of atomic oxygen

The author postulated that atomic oxygen can be a good catalyst for
"hydrinos" production because ionization energy of hydrogen and oxygen =
is very close as is shown below.

Hydrogen =3D13.598 eV, Oxygen   =3D13.618 eV

It can be expected that the following reactions can take place (may be
displayed incorrectly):
O + O + H -> h[n=3D1/2] + 2 O+ + 2 e-      ---(1)
H + H + O -> H[n=3D1/2] + H+ + O+ + 2e-    ---(2)
H + H + H -> H[n=3D1/2] + 2 H+ + 2 e-      ---(3)
D + D + D -> D[n=3D1/2] + 2 D+ + 2 e-      ---(4)
D + D + O -> D[n=3D1/2] + D++ O++ 2 e-     ---(5)
D + O + O -> D[n=3D1/2] + 2 O+ + 2 e-      ---(6)

H[n=3D1/2], D[n=3D1/2] designates a hydrogen whose electron orbit is =
shrunken to 1/2 the radius of a normal one and these will be shrunken =
further as reaction continues. These reactions explain anomalous heat =
generation but no nuclear ash.

Advantages of atomic oxygen as catalyst. As is shown in the above =
equation, hydrogen (deuterium) itself is a good candidate for catalyst, =
but the oxygen atom is about 2 times bigger than the hydrogen atom, and =
the probability of multi-body collision of 3 atoms is almost one order =
bigger than hydrogen atom.

Some verification of the postulation

-Anomalous combustion. It had been shown that this postulation could be =
applied to the explanation of several anomalous combustion phenomena =
that can't be explained by current theories(2).

-Anomalous heat generation in proton conductive ceramics(3)

-Nuclear transmutation induced by CaO  It was reported that a =
multi-layer cathode made of Pd, CaO and Pd has very good reproducibility =
of nuclear transmutation and CaO has a key role in this reaction(5). It =
is not clear how strongly oxygen atoms are bound in CaO, but it is well =
expected that the same phenomenon as is the case for proton conductive =
ceramics has taken place.

Conclusion

It has been shown that atomic oxygen can be a good catalyst for =
generation of "Hydrino". This will not occur in an ICE with unreformed =
gasoline, for any number of reasone involving time and pressure. =
However, when hydrocarbons are reformed immediately prior to intake in =
an ICE, the stage is set for many supra-chemical reactions.

References
(1) Mills,R. The Grand Unified Theory of Classical Quantum Mechanics,
    Blacklight Power Inc., 1999
(2) Yamamoto, H., Explanation of Anomalous Combustion of Brown's Gas =
using Dr. Mills' Hydrino Theory , SAE1999-01-3325
(3) Biberian, J., "Electrolysis of LaAlO3 Single Crystals and Ceramics =
in a
    Deuteriated Atmosphere", Proceedings of 7th International Conference =
on Cold Fusion,1998
(4) Yamamoto,H., A Catalytic Role of Atomic Oxygen on Anomalous Heat =
Generation  Induced in Proton Conductive Ceramics under Hydrogen =
Atmosphere, JCF2  Abstract NO.25,2000.
(5) Iwamura, Y. et, al., "Detection of Anomalous Elements, X-ray and =
Excess  Heat Induced by Continuous Diffusion of Deuterium through =
Multi-layer Cathode(Pd/CaO/Pd)", Proceedings of 7th International =
Conference on Cold  Fusion, 1998.


As you can see, this hypothesized catalytic hydrino boosting process is =
complex, overunity, and pretty far out there on the fringes of accepted =
science...if it were not, the puzzle of water-as-fuel booster would have =
been solved long ago. And although this particular explanation is =
somewhat new  - the numerous claims for auto engines running on water =
are far from new. In fact, though you may not realize it, these claims =
of water-as-fuel have been around for at least fifty years in the USA, =
but recently the claims seem to be on the rise internationally, so we =
may be on the cusp of a new paradigm in energy conversion. =20

I believe the independent "garage inventor," will be instrumental - and =
most likely, inventors in Europe or Asia where the relative cost of =
petroleum is much higher, will be most highly motivated. When combined =
with the *power of the internet* to disseminate speculation, =
un-publishable theories, and numerous test results, positive and =
negative, things could advance quicker than in any big bureaucracy ... =
not that Tony Blair runs a  big bureaucracy or anything like that.... =
;-)

Jones
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Wesley,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&gt; OK let me check my chemistry. =
Hydrocarbon plus=20
water to CO2 and hydrogen.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Not that simple. You must have been =
playing "hooky"=20
(as we say in states), the day your chem prof mentioned carbon monoxide, =

hydronium ions, nitrogen hydride and hydrogen peroxide ions, and the =
numerous=20
(about 30) intermediates. These intermediates have a short =
lifetime&nbsp;- but=20
coincidentally -&nbsp;a slightly&nbsp;longer lifetime than the transit =
time from=20
the reformer to the ICE power stroke. The only problem is avoiding =
premature=20
ignition (keeping the mix very "lean")</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&gt;&nbsp;The reformer uses energy so =
it can't be=20
more efficient than <BR>&gt; say a normal car and its still making =
greenhouse=20
gases. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Totally wrong logic. The reformer can =
use energy at=20
close to 100% efficiency, if necessary (it often isn't even necessary as =
there=20
is a great surplus of unused heat). All of the reformer heat of can come =
from=20
unused exhaust heat, but even that is unnecessary as it takes remarkably =
little=20
heat to reform gasoline. The auto engine of the&nbsp;car is at only 25%=20
eff.&nbsp;using gasoline in an ICE, because for one thing the unburned=20
hydrocarbons are as much as 15%, depending on RPM. And for another thing =
the=20
compressibility of CO2 makes it an poor medium to use for Carnot =
expansion.=20
Steam is about 40% more effective for expanding than CO2 and =
consequently, a=20
hydrogen powered ICE like the Ford Focus.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Too much heat at high pressure, can and =
is *wasted*=20
all the time in an IC engine. One only needs enough heat to insure =
complete=20
combustion and to raise gas pressure in the cylinder to the optimum =
level, which=20
is surprisingly low. Here's an off-beat spin on ICE thermodynamics, that =
even if=20
you understand what "critical pressure" is all about, may not have=20
registered.&nbsp; <BR><BR>In the critical region, gases can become so=20
compressible that they loose their ability to transfer their heat energy =

dynamically to the surroundings. And some gases get to that state PDQ. =
Carbon=20
dioxide, for instance, has a *critical pressure* of only a measly ~1000 =
psi,=20
over three times lower than steam, and it has a molecular weight that is =
way=20
over double steam and a velocity that is tortoise-like in comparison. In =
short,=20
it's probably the worst medium for converting heat from combustion into=20
mechanical energy that one could imagine. Its a miracle in itself that =
an IC=20
engine burning hydrocarbon can even get to 25% efficiency.<BR><BR>The =
Ideal Gas=20
Law was first written in 1834 by Emil Clapeyron. Because it is a simple =
linear=20
relationship, and works well at STP, it has misled many people to think=20
thermodynamics is a firm and clear-cut. science.&nbsp; Unfortunately, =
the Gas=20
Law doesn't work in any situation where actual combustion takes place. =
And it=20
takes no account of thermochemical interaction, especially of =
short-lived=20
intermediate species..<BR><BR>A typical IC engine requires a compression =
ratio=20
of 10-1 to get up to 85%complete combustion of hydrocarbons (that's =
about the=20
max, so there is usually 15% wasted off the top because of the strong =
molecular=20
bonding of hydrocarbons) but when you burn hydrogen, you can get =
near-complete=20
combustion at far less than the150 psi needed for gasoline. The ~1000 =
psi=20
critical pressure for CO2 is only about 6 times higher then the =
compressed gas=20
in the IC cylinder, so in practice - lets say that x-amount of calories =
from=20
burning carbon will raise the gas pressure from 150 to 1000, then adding =
more is=20
basically a waste. Catch-22, if you try to ignite x amount, it often =
won't even=20
burn, so you have to use 3x just to get ignition. Do you see the problem =
here?=20
You have already expended three times more fuel than you needed to raise =
the=20
temperature of the gas to the optimum level, and that extra heat you =
added=20
cannot be returned efficiently because the CO2 has exceeded it critical=20
pressure. <BR><BR>It's not that grim in practice because as the piston =
goes down=20
and pressure drops, more and more of the formerly wasted heat can be =
returned.=20
But because of these insane requirements, we have been misled into =
thinking that=20
high compression is efficient, when in truth it is only efficient&nbsp; =
because=20
we had to use carbon in the fuel. It would be far more efficient to use =
a lower=20
compression ratio and a better fuel for the ICE&nbsp;! HYDROGEN ! Forget =
your=20
fuel cell. The ICE can be just as efficient in normal use burning=20
hydrogen.<BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&gt;If its only a small amount of =
hydrocarbons then=20
they hiding something up their <BR>&gt; sleeves; browns gas perhaps?=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>On this you may be correct. There are =
some=20
alternative hypothetical sources for the "extra" energy of =
water-reformed fuels=20
(I am enclosing an old postings FWIW&nbsp;below)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&gt;&nbsp;Always wondered what that =
would do in=20
a&nbsp; reformer. Oops just remembered I failed chemistry.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Ah.... </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>....then here is more speculation and =
fringe=20
information than you could possibly want, but given the magic of =
cut-and-paste,=20
is very easy for me to forward. </FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The =
following is=20
a paraphrased collection thoughts taken from various past&nbsp;internet=20
postings, which may provide an even more confused picture of where we =
are going=20
with some of these "fringe" water-fuel theories.&nbsp;Basically, there =
are=20
numerous possibilities that exist now for locating a source of "excess =
energy"=20
or "free energy" which may exist in some water-fuel concepts like =
"aqua-fuel" TM=20
or this Russian copy-cat stuff. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Some possibilities we have considered =
for putative=20
OU (overunity) in hydrogen combustion (or water-reformed=20
gasoline)&nbsp;include:<BR><BR>1) "beta-aether" (ZPE, Casimir)&nbsp;this =

includes "brittle mechanical failure" </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; due to Casimir<BR>2) =
Any number=20
of QM low-probability interactions involving the proton,=20
such<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; as quantum tunneling<BR>3) =
Hydrino...&nbsp; the=20
"below ground state" hydrogen isomer<BR>4) EVs (the "charge cluster" =
electron=20
phenomena of Ken Shoulders)...<BR>5) Some variation of LENR (low energy =
nuclear=20
reaction) phenomena<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; involving the deuterons =
in water=20
(such as deuterium "stripping")<BR>6) Other "quasi-nuclear" or =
"supra-chemical"=20
phenomena that have not&nbsp;been researched<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; such =
as F.=20
Sparber's electronium triad&nbsp;(*e-)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><BR><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>But MOST probably: we are dealing =
with a=20
m=E9lange - an accumulated range of lower probability interactions (QM =
based)=20
between several, of the above mechanisms... on top of very advantageous=20
chemistry which is not seen with straight hydrocarbon=20
combustion.<BR><BR>Unfortunately, nobody likes to consider the =
possibility that=20
numerous highly speculative new mechanisms, none of which are that=20
well-understood or widely accepted, could be at work in the (seemingly) =
simplest=20
of (actually complicated) devices... The bottom line is in the=20
results.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I think now we are seeing real results, =
so that=20
makes some of the following less than speculative. "Reductionism" in =
science=20
probably reached its limits with Quantum Mechanics, and now we must =
start to=20
logically rebuilt the complexity we were once so desirous of =
eliminating... such=20
as by tying in QM to real combustion chemistry. The only three =
reductionist=20
principles that seem to be at work in the utilization of =
water-enhanced-fuel are=20
firstly, a VACUUM, or partial vacuum, especially a vacuum resulting in =
PHASE=20
CHANGE of water, particularly a phase-change that is juxtaposed =
instantaneously=20
against an ELECTRIC FIELD...such as Redox changes due to carbonate =
acidity and=20
peroxide bases. This must be immediately followed by compression to the =
extent=20
that Casimir forces come into play, if not the hydrino. The =
vacuum-collapse=20
sequence is also seen in sonoluminescence.<BR><BR>Randell Mills' has =
developed a=20
complete theory of "below ground state" hydrogen, which suggests that =
when=20
properly catalyzed, hydrogen can deliver more energy than the energy of=20
combustion. The website is thorough and complex (and occasionally wrong) =
in both=20
theory and application:<BR></FONT><A href=3D""><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>http://www.blacklightpower.com/</FONT></A><BR><BR><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>It would take a very intelligent person a great deal of time to =
digest=20
these details, many of which are in error, but it is worth the effort, =
even in=20
the context of an automotive ICE, and fuel reforming, which cannot be =
covered by=20
Mills patents. But before investing too much time in this, have a look =
at this=20
graphic representation of something even more far-out - exploding water =
- an=20
"Ice Bomb" :<BR></FONT><A href=3D""><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>http://genchem.chem.wisc.edu/demonstrations/Gen_Chem_Pages/10liq=
uidsnsolidpage/ice_bomb.htm</FONT></A><BR><BR><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2>The ice bomb explosion shown here is not =
particularly violent=20
but it does fracture an iron sphere - it is offered as a metaphor for =
the more=20
numerous mini-ice-capacitor-bombs that may result when electrolyzed =
water vapor=20
(with or without hydrocarbons) is entrained in the air intake of an ICE=20
(internal combustion engine) is made to explode. This is part of the =
success of=20
the Zenion experiments, mentioned by Mark Goldes where over 100 MPG was=20
seen.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Every mole of water (18 grams) can =
contain as many=20
as 10^18 of these mini-bombs that can be forced by a vacuum into a phase =
change=20
- going from liquid to gas (via transient nanometer solid ice), possibly =

encapsulating an electric charge,&nbsp;and then immediately sublimating =
into=20
gas. On expanding to 1000 times its previous volume, driving the piston =
of the=20
ICE, while at the same time, seeming to circumvent thermodynamic "laws" =
we can=20
also suggest that nascent hydrogen, i.e a bare proton just as it is =
split-off=20
from a water molecule, can under certain circumstances be induced by =
added=20
"charge" to give up more energy than it does in normal combustion. This =
might be=20
facilitated&nbsp;by dropping below the normal ground state into a =
"hydrino," and=20
transferring a high energy UV photon in the process. <BR><BR>The hydrino =
forming=20
process may be the consequence of "beta-aether" pressure combined with=20
partial-vacuum electrolysis. This idea goes beyond Randell Mills' =
theory, but=20
accepts the reality of the hydrino, which has enough electron affinity =
to either=20
form a hydride having an ionization energy of about .7 eV, or far more =
likely,=20
to bond to the negative polar end of a water molecule, giving a =
hydronium=20
molecule, H2O-Hy which is closer to a true *molecule,* than an ion, and =
which is=20
stable to .7 eV. <BR><BR>The photon emitted is the just the right energy =
to be=20
immediately recaptured, so the process can repeat itself several times, =
but=20
there are enough losses that the mechanism cannot be a self-sustaining =
chain=20
reaction. BUT the beauty of this proposed mechanism is that phase change =
can=20
occur at two different locations in a converted ICE: first in the =
electrolysis=20
chamber and secondly in the combustion chamber itself, using the two =
different=20
phase changes of H2O. In both locations we find the two needed =
ingredients for=20
the anomaly: water phase change and an electric field.<BR><BR>As =
mentioned, once=20
electrolysis begins AT A PARTIAL VACUUM, some few hydrinos will be =
formed.=20
Hydrino formation requires a vacuum to be efficient.&nbsp; The UV =
photons=20
emitted are just at the right energy to be absorbed by more water vapor =
to split=20
off more protons, to repeat the process whenever three nascent protons =
are=20
juxtaposed. This reaction, and others, goes on in the electrolysis or =
reformer=20
cell, adjacent to the intake port. <BR><BR>Immediately after intake, in =
the=20
combustion chamber, when a spark or other arc discharge ignites the =
hydronium +=20
hydrogen peroxide + O2 +other short-lived chemicals which have =
previously been=20
created in the electrolysis chamber, then more hydrinos and more UV can =
be=20
created and subsequently absorbed by the "mini-ice-bombs," accelerating =
their=20
expansion at a rate that is in keeping with the several thousand RPMs of =
an ICE=20
(normally, the expansion reaction would be too slow).&nbsp; =
<BR><BR>Under these=20
circumstances, this UV radiation from hydrino formation is adequate to=20
accelerate the rapid heating of a solid, such as finely divided =
water-ice so=20
that it sublimates very quickly with cavitation effects. In the process, =

pressure is converted into mechanical energy by means of a resultant =
high-ratio=20
expansion of a solid into a gas to drive a piston or turbine. And you =
will find=20
none of this in any textbook....<BR><BR>The following is an abstract =
from=20
Hiroshi Yamamoto which deals with hydrino formation in the presence of =
oxygen=20
ions.<BR><BR>A CATALYTIC ROLE OF ATOMIC OXYGEN ON ANOMALOUS HEAT=20
GENERATION<BR><BR>Introduction<BR><BR>Dr. Randell Mills demonstrated =
that=20
hydrogen atoms can achieve lower states than ground state by a resonant=20
collision with a near by atom or<BR>combination of atoms having the =
capability=20
to absorb the energy to effect the transition, namely, an integer =
multiple of=20
the potential energy of<BR>atomic hydrogen, m(27.2eV) (m=3Dinteger) (1)=20
.<BR><BR>He named this shrunken hydrogen atom "hydrino" and claims that =
this=20
hydrino can be a catalyst to shrink other hydrinos to further lower =
states. More=20
attention is now being paid to neutron like particles for the initiation =
of cold=20
fusion. It is&nbsp; anticipated that well shrunken "hydrinos" can be =
deemed as=20
quasi-neutrons because the electron with a tighter orbit can neutralize =
the=20
positive charge of proton.<BR><BR>A catalytic role of atomic =
oxygen<BR><BR>The=20
author postulated that atomic oxygen can be a good catalyst =
for<BR>"hydrinos"=20
production because ionization energy of hydrogen and oxygen is very =
close as is=20
shown below.<BR><BR>Hydrogen =3D13.598 eV, Oxygen&nbsp;&nbsp; =3D13.618 =
eV<BR><BR>It=20
can be expected that the following reactions can take place (may =
be<BR>displayed=20
incorrectly):<BR>O + O + H -&gt; h[n=3D1/2] + 2 O+ + 2=20
e-&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ---(1)<BR>H + H + O -&gt; H[n=3D1/2] + =
H+ + O+ +=20
2e-&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ---(2)<BR>H + H + H -&gt; H[n=3D1/2] + 2 H+ + 2=20
e-&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ---(3)<BR>D + D + D -&gt; D[n=3D1/2] + =
2 D+ + 2=20
e-&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ---(4)<BR>D + D + O -&gt; D[n=3D1/2] + =
D++ O++ 2=20
e-&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ---(5)<BR>D + O + O -&gt; D[n=3D1/2] + 2 O+ + =
2=20
e-&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ---(6)<BR><BR>H[n=3D1/2], D[n=3D1/2] =
designates a=20
hydrogen whose electron orbit is shrunken to 1/2 the radius of a normal =
one and=20
these will be shrunken further as reaction continues. These reactions =
explain=20
anomalous heat generation but no nuclear ash.<BR><BR>Advantages of =
atomic oxygen=20
as catalyst. As is shown in the above equation, hydrogen (deuterium) =
itself is a=20
good candidate for catalyst, but the oxygen atom is about 2 times bigger =
than=20
the hydrogen atom, and the probability of multi-body collision of 3 =
atoms is=20
almost one order bigger than hydrogen atom.<BR><BR>Some verification of =
the=20
postulation<BR><BR>-Anomalous combustion. It had been shown that this=20
postulation could be applied to the explanation of several anomalous =
combustion=20
phenomena that can't be explained by current =
theories(2).<BR><BR>-Anomalous heat=20
generation in proton conductive ceramics(3)<BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>-Nuclear transmutation induced by =
CaO&nbsp; It was=20
reported that a multi-layer cathode made of Pd, CaO and Pd has very good =

reproducibility of nuclear transmutation and CaO has a key role in this=20
reaction(5). It is not clear how strongly oxygen atoms are bound in CaO, =
but it=20
is well expected that the same phenomenon as is the case for proton =
conductive=20
ceramics has taken place.<BR><BR>Conclusion<BR><BR>It has been shown =
that atomic=20
oxygen can be a good catalyst for generation of "Hydrino". This will not =
occur=20
in an ICE with unreformed gasoline, for any number of reasone involving =
time and=20
pressure. However, when hydrocarbons are reformed immediately prior to =
intake in=20
an ICE, the stage is set for many supra-chemical=20
reactions.<BR><BR>References<BR>(1) Mills,R. The Grand Unified Theory of =

Classical Quantum Mechanics,<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Blacklight Power =
Inc.,=20
1999<BR>(2) Yamamoto, H., Explanation of Anomalous Combustion of Brown's =
Gas=20
using Dr. Mills' Hydrino Theory , SAE1999-01-3325<BR>(3) Biberian, J.,=20
"Electrolysis of LaAlO3 Single Crystals and Ceramics in =
a<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
Deuteriated Atmosphere", Proceedings of 7th International Conference on =
Cold=20
Fusion,1998<BR>(4) Yamamoto,H., A Catalytic Role of Atomic Oxygen on =
Anomalous=20
Heat Generation&nbsp; Induced in Proton Conductive Ceramics under =
Hydrogen=20
Atmosphere, JCF2&nbsp; Abstract NO.25,2000.<BR>(5) Iwamura, Y. et, al.,=20
"Detection of Anomalous Elements, X-ray and Excess&nbsp; Heat Induced by =

Continuous Diffusion of Deuterium through Multi-layer =
Cathode(Pd/CaO/Pd)",=20
Proceedings of 7th International Conference on Cold&nbsp; Fusion,=20
1998.<BR><BR><BR>As you can see, this hypothesized catalytic hydrino =
boosting=20
process is complex, overunity, and pretty far out there on the fringes =
of=20
accepted science...if it were not, the puzzle of water-as-fuel booster =
would=20
have been solved long ago. And although this particular explanation is=20
somewhat&nbsp;new&nbsp; - the numerous claims for auto engines running =
on water=20
are far from new. In fact, though you may not realize it, these claims =
of=20
water-as-fuel have been around for at least fifty years in the USA, but =
recently=20
the claims seem to be on the rise internationally, so we may be on the =
cusp of a=20
new paradigm in energy conversion.&nbsp; <BR><BR>I believe the =
independent=20
"garage inventor," will be instrumental - and most likely, inventors in =
Europe=20
or Asia where the relative cost of petroleum is much higher, will be =
most highly=20
motivated. When combined with the *power of the internet* to disseminate =

speculation, un-publishable theories, and numerous test results, =
positive and=20
negative, things could advance quicker than in any big bureaucracy ... =
not that=20
Tony Blair runs a&nbsp; big bureaucracy or anything like that....=20
;-)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Jones</DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>

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From: Merlyn <merlyn_3k yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: CF and popular culture, "Outer Limits" episode
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X-Status: 

'Chain Reaction' actually had only the slightest
connection to CF.  It was really about
sonoluminescence, and using lasers and a resonant
cavitation effect to disasociate water into hydrogen
and oxygen.

'The Saint' was about CF, periferally.

--- Grimer <f.grimer grimer2.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

> At 05:11 pm 22/09/2005 -0400, Jed wrote:
> >Wikipedia mentions an episode on "Outer Limits"
> about CF. Here is a synopsis:
> >
>
>http://www.theouterlimits.com/episodes/season4/412.htm
> >
> >Keywords: CF bomb; evil CF researcher
> 
> 
> Not as good as the film Chain Reaction - but I
> suppose
>           "no publicity is bad publicity".
> 
> 


Merlyn
Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 23 11:54:42 2005
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Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 11:53:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: Merlyn <merlyn_3k yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: CF and popular culture, "Outer Limits" episode
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I guess my memory is wonky and I really should follow
links...

--- Merlyn <merlyn_3k yahoo.com> wrote:

> I vaguely remember that episode, it started with a

<snip incorrect plot synopsis>

> 
> --- Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com> wrote:
> 
> > Wikipedia mentions an episode on "Outer Limits"
> > about CF. Here is a synopsis:
> > 
> >
>
http://www.theouterlimits.com/episodes/season4/412.htm
> > 
> > Keywords: CF bomb; evil CF researcher
> > 
> > - Jed
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> Merlyn
> Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
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> 


Merlyn
Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist


		
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Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 20:59:43 +0100
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Grimer <f.grimer grimer2.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: CF and popular culture, "Outer Limits" episode
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At 11:48 am 23/09/2005 -0700, Merlyn wrote:

> 'Chain Reaction' actually had only the slightest
>  connection to CF.  

Fair comment, Merlyn - but

     ===========================================
     http://www.scifimoviepage.com/chain.html

     Chain Reaction isn’t really a science 
     fiction movie. It is an action movie with 
     one sci-fi element in it, namely the idea 
     that cold fusion can work and be a clean, 
     efficient and cheap energy source that will 
     replace all the existing energy sources we 
     have.
     ===========================================

So CF was integral to the plot and I imagine that 
the author intended the explosion to be more than
a hydrogen-oxygen explosion.

I'm pleased my memory didn't fail me completely.  ;-)

Frank

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Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 17:38:46 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Off topic - US climate loonies
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Nick Palmer wrote:

>It's nice to have some heavyweight support from the Royal Commission on 
>Environmental Pollution!

Yes. The statement was intemperate but welcome. As I mentioned, Japanese 
national television (NHK) and the Meteorological Agency appear to take it 
for granted that global warming is real, and that is caused by human 
activity. Their scientific papers they are probably more reticent, but when 
the subject comes up in newscasts, it is treated as a matter of fact. The 
other day the NHK discussed the recent record rainfall of 1.3 meters in 72 
hours. They showed graphs demonstrating that incidents of intense rainfall 
has increased to unprecedented levels in the last 10 years. They have 
reliable data going back to around 1880.

In my opinion, there is no longer any question that the global climate is 
changing. I cannot judge whether this is some natural cycle, or a long-term 
trend in one direction. Of course I cannot judge whether it is caused by 
human activity or some natural force. However, I would bet that the 
consensus of experts who have studied this problem in detail is correct. 
That is usually a safe bet.

As I have said before, the consensus of people who actually research cold 
fusion is that the effect is real, and the ones who disagree have not 
studied the subject, so their opinions do not count.

The informed consensus is that global warming is real, and if I were the 
president I would act on that basis. Nearly every step we take to combat 
global warming would be beneficial in other ways. The only exception would 
be sequestering carbon. There is no economic benefit to doing that, and no 
point, if global warming is not caused by CO2.

I also have no doubt whatever that the supply of oil has peaked and will 
soon begin a rapid decline. This is much easier to understand than global 
warming. I recommend Deffeyes book, "Hubbert's Peak." What is ironic about 
this situation is that the oil industry will suffer the most if this 
situation continues.

If the administration and the oil industry does not move quickly to the 
forefront to promote conservation, the rapid development of plug-in 
hybrids, and other steps to radically reduce oil consumption, the industry 
will run through the remaining stocks too quickly, price itself out of the 
market, and generate a huge angry backlash. Plus it is producing ideal 
conditions for the commercial development of alternatives, such as 
synthetic hydrogen based fuels generated from wind, solar or even fission. 
If oil goes above $100 a barrel and stays there for several years, 
synthetic fuel would be competitive. It will be developed and improved, and 
the price will fall, so that later, even if oil later falls back to $50 per 
barrel, synthetic fuel will remain competitive. It is in the oil industry's 
best interests to reduce consumption now, stretch out supplies for an extra 
30 years, and prevent this from happening. Since Bush and Cheney are from 
the oil business, you would think they would understand what needs to be 
done to rescue that business, but apparently they do not.

Here is a quote from the latest issue of the New Yorker:

"Last week, a study conducted by the National Commission on Energy Policy 
identified a short list of possible problems -- political unrest in 
Nigeria, terrorist attacks in Saudi Arabia -- and showed that taking as 
little as four per cent off the global oil market could cause prices to 
soar to more than $161 a barrel."

http://www.newyorker.com/talk/content/articles/050926ta_talk_surowiecki

That translates to gasoline at $7.60 per gallon. If oil reaches this price 
and stays there, sales will plummet worldwide and people will quickly find 
alternative ways of getting around. (Oil is used almost exclusively for 
transportation nowadays.) Years ago, at the time of the first oil crisis, 
some economists and oil experts said that the demand for oil is inelastic. 
Events soon prove them wrong. U.S. consumption fell from 18 million barrels 
per day in 1979, to 15 million in 1983. It did not recover until 1996, and 
if the price of oil had not fallen, and the downward trend had continued, 
by now consumption would be approaching zero, because alternatives would be 
cheaper. The "inelastic" claim strikes me as one of the craziest notions I 
have ever read in the annals of business. Do these people really believe 
that automobile drivers in the U.S. are incapable of forming car pools, or 
leaving the SUV in the garage and driving the car instead? (Most families 
with SUVs also have cars.) If the average commuter carpools one day a week 
consumption will fall by 10% to 20%.

- Jed


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Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 17:43:00 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: CF and popular culture 2: a sportswriter's analogy
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Google alerts brought me this:

http://rockymountainnews.com/drmn/sports_columnists/article/0,1299,DRMN_83_4102450,00.html

QUOTE:

"PARALYSIS BY ANALYSIS: Sometimes people just overanalyze. It's football, 
not cold fusion.

You win by letting your best players do their thing. That's why the 
Chargers have no one to blame for being 0-2 right now but themselves. . . ."

CF has remained an active part of the "national memory" or meme, as they 
are calling it these days. Most references to CF are derogatory. I would 
call this one ambiguous.

- Jed


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Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 18:27:48 -0400
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Subject: Basic facts from Annual Energy Review
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Here is some basic information from the Energy Information Agency (EIA) 
Annual Energy Review. 2001 data, from Table 2.9 Motor vehicle mileage, fuel 
consumption and fuel rates, 1949-2001:

Passenger Cars

Average miles per vehicle: 11,766
Fuel consumption (gallons per vehicle): 532
Mileage (MPG): 22.1

Vans, pickup trucks, and sport utility vehicles

Average miles per vehicle: 11,140
Fuel consumption (gallons per vehicle): 633
Mileage (MPG): 17.6

In the previous message I said that oil at $161 per barrel translates to 
gasoline at $7.60 per gallon. That is a very rough estimate. There are 42 
gallons per barrel. The cost per gallon of gasoline is usually about double 
the cost of crude oil,  because of the cost of refining, distribution, and 
finally the gas station profit (which is razor thin). $161 * 2 / 42 = 
$7.66. If the cost really does spike to $161 because of "political unrest 
in Nigeria, terrorist attacks in Saudi Arabia" I expect the oil industry 
and the administration would take emergency steps to hold down the price of 
gasoline, such as releasing the strategic reserve, or rationing. These 
steps would prevent the price for reaching $7.60 for a while. For a few 
months, I guess.

Anyway, plug gasoline at $7.60 into the above numbers and see what you come 
up with. How many American drivers can afford to spend $4,800 per year on 
gasoline? How many families with two working parents can afford $9,000? 
They will find other ways to get around. Here is a quote from today's 
Atlanta Journal, made by some naïve twit named Goodale, who has no clue of 
what the word "need" means:

QUOTE:

"When people need a vehicle, they're going to buy what suits their needs," 
Goodale said. "I just purchased a big SUV because my family needs one to 
get everybody to and fro. It's a little bit of a shock to fill your car up 
for $65, but it's what it takes to do what you have to do." . . .

How much you drive your SUV makes a difference, Goodale said:

"If you put 15,000 miles a year on that vehicle, [a more efficient car] 
would make a significant difference. But if you buy it to ... run a few 
errands, and drive it just 3,000 miles a year, I don't think you would take 
the cost of gas into consideration."

http://www.ajc.com/search/content/auto/epaper/editions/friday/wheels_3433e25db61aa16e00cd.html

I expect this statement would be mind-boggling to anyone who lived through 
the Depression or WWII. It shows how far removed people are from reality, 
and what a shock it will be to them if a real energy crisis hits. Only a 
farmer or workman "needs" an SUV. Everyone else is just pretending. A 
suburban nitwit who uses an SUV to run "a few errands" needs it about as 
much as I need a supercomputer or a scanning electron microscope. (Mind 
you, I would love to fool around with those things!)


Breaking News On the Energy Crisis Front: The governor of Georgia has asked 
schools to close Monday and Tuesday to conserve fuel. This is a good 
example of how *not* to deal with an energy crisis. See:

http://www.ajc.com/news/content/metro/0905/24perdue.html

- Jed



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> From: What's New <whatsnew BOBPARK.ORG>
> To: <BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW LISTSERV.UMD.EDU>
 Date: 9/23/2005 1:32:55 PM
 Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday September 23, 2005

 WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 23 Sep 05   Washington, DC

 1. THE POISON PILL: MOON/MARS PUT ON THE KATRINA-RELIEF HIT LIST.
 Last week, WN characterized NASA's plan to return to the moon in
 2018 as an impossibly expensive and pointless program that some
 future administration would find it necessary to cancel, thus
 sparing the Bush administration the blame for ending human space
 exploration.  Yesterday, the NY Times printed an expanded version
 as an op-ed  http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/22/opinion/22park.html .   
 Meanwhile, the Republican Study Committee, a group of fiscal hawks in the 
 House,launched Operation Offset to strip unnecessary spending from the
 national budget to offset the cost of rebuilding after Katrina. Moon/Mars 
 is high on their list of things to cut, but the list is 23 pages long.  
 Terminating the ISS, for example, is not on the list, which includes
things 
 like delaying Medicare drug benefits, eliminating increases to the global 
 AIDS initiative, cutting off federal money for the Corporation for Public 
 Broadcasting, and numerous other soft fuzzy programs.  

 2. NASA: GRIFFIN SAYS NEXT SHUTTLE LAUNCH WON'T BE BEFORE MAY. 
 Just a month ago the NASA Administrator was saying the shuttle
 would not fly before March 4.  But the Stennis Space Center,
 which is responsible for testing the engines, is just 45 miles
 East of New Orleans, and many of the employees are without homes.

 3. NORTH KOREAN NUKES: IS THIS BLACKMAIL, OR IS IT CONFUSION?  
 On Monday, it was announced that six-nation talks in Beijing had
 reached an agreement under which North Korea would scrap its
 nuclear arms program in return for something to feed its citizens
 and perhaps a little respect.  By Tuesday, North Korea said it
 would start to dismantle when the U.S. gave it a light-water
 reactor.  The U.S. said it wasn't sending any reactors until the
 weapons program was gone.  On Wednesday, Secretary of State Rice
 said everybody had to stick to what had been agreed to, but no
 one agrees on what that was.  Today, North Korea said it will
 "simultaneously" pursue peaceful nuclear power, while the U.N.
 inspects its weapons program.  Tomorrow?  Who knows.

 4. NATURAL HISTORY: MUSEUMS DEAL WITH CREATIONIST CONFRONTATIONS.
 With the first court test of whether intelligent design theory
 belongs in science class beginning on Monday, visitors to natural
 history museums complain that exhibits disagree with biblical
 accounts.  Meanwhile, the Discovery Institute issued a statement
 dissociating itself from the Dover School Board's "misguided"
 approach in treating the trial as a test of the "establishment
 clause" of the First Amendment, rather than the "free speech
 clause," as the Discovery Institute would prefer.

 5. FUEL ECONOMY: DO INCREASED STANDARDS FOR SUVS HAVE A CHANCE?
 Maybe, with another hurricane tearing up the Gulf.  Boelert and
 Markey are leading the effort, selling it as a way to combat high
 gas prices.  They didn't have many sponsors a week ago, but that
 was before Rita took aim at the Texas refineries.

 THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND.
 Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the
 University of Maryland, but they should be.
 ---
 Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.bobpark.org
 What's New is moving to a different listserver and our
 subscription process has changed. To change your subscription
 status please visit this link:
 http://listserv.umd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=bobparks-whatsnew&A=1


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Gennulmuns,

I'm not following this thread to closely, but a reporter sent this to me 
the other day. Seems to be some parallel.

FYI:

At 06:17 AM 9/19/2005, you wrote:
>http://www.privatepower.ca/101/privatepower/index.htm
>
>The above is a link I discovered after an article ran in our local daily
>newspaper on Saturday. The article was buried, but basically stated it's an
>invention you attach to your car and it produces hydrogen which is fed into
>your car engine - sounds familiar.
>
>According to the inventor, the Canadian government is so impressed they're
>featuring it at their booth during the upcoming World Kyoto convention in
>Montreal. Nov.28 - Dec.9. And I believe they're introducing the product at a
>conference this Friday.


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From: "Alex Caliostro" <caliostro1795 hotmail.com>
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Subject: the dark side of the moon
Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 08:44:31 -0600
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September 22, 2005
The Dark Side of the Moon
By ROBERT L. PARK

Correction Appended

College Park, Md.

THIS week NASA described plans to return astronauts to the Moon in 2018 at a 
cost of $104 billion. That's nine years after President Bush leaves office. 
Starting from scratch in 1961, President Kennedy's commitment to put a man 
on the Moon and return him safely to Earth was realized in just eight years. 
What is going on?

The Apollo 11 moon landing on July 16, 1969, transcended the superpower 
struggle for world domination that had motivated it. People everywhere were 
awed by what was above all an inspiring demonstration of human achievement. 
Could lunar colonies, expeditions to Mars and even the stars be far behind?

Just three years later, however, as the war in Southeast Asia drained 
American resources, the era of human space exploration abruptly ended. In 36 
years, no human has ventured beyond the relative safety of low-Earth orbit. 
Who could have imagined, on that magic night in the summer of 1969, that the 
moon might be as far into space as humans would ever go?

On the 20th anniversary of the Apollo 11 moon landing, President George H. 
W. Bush spoke from the steps of the National Air and Space Museum in 
Washington. The president called for a return to the moon and for a human 
expedition to Mars. "Like Columbus," he said, "we dream of distant shores 
we've not yet seen."

George W. Bush seems driven to complete his father's unfinished business in 
space, as in Iraq. But much has changed. The cold war, which provided the 
initial motivation for our space program, is long gone. And technological 
progress has superseded human space exploration. Remotely controlled 
instruments have become natural extensions of frail human bodies.

Much of what we yearn to discover in space is inaccessible to humans. 
Astronauts on Mars, locked in their spacesuits, could not venture far from 
shelter amid the constant bombardment of energetic particles that are 
unscreened by the thin atmosphere. Beyond Mars, there is no place humans can 
go in the foreseeable future. The great adventure of the 21st century will 
be to explore where no human can possibly set foot. The great quest is to 
find life to which we are not related. Could nature have solved the problem 
of life in some other way, in some other place? When we find out, we will 
know much more about ourselves.

Two mechanical geologists, Spirit and Opportunity, are doing this even now, 
by searching for evidence of water on opposite sides of Mars. They don't 
break for lunch or complain about the cold nights, and they live on 
sunshine. They've been at it for nearly two years, yet their mission costs 
less than sending a shuttle to the International Space Station. The brains 
of Spirit and Opportunity are the brains of geologists back on Earth.

Progress in society is measured by the extent to which work that is 
dangerous or menial is done by machines. The benefits we enjoy from the 
space program - weather satellites, communications satellites and global 
positioning - come from robotic spacecraft. Few scientists are calling for a 
human mission to the Moon or Mars. Human space exploration is essentially 
over. It is too expensive and provides too little return. But politicians 
know that the American public identifies progress in space with human 
astronauts.

The Bush administration's solution is to create an impossibly expensive and 
pointless program for some other administration to cancel, thus bearing the 
blame for ending human space exploration. The return to the moon is not a 
noble quest. It is a poison pill.

Correction:
An Op-Ed article on Thursday about President Bush's plans to resume human 
exploration of the moon misstated the date of the Apollo 11 lunar landing. 
It was July 20, 1969, not July 16.

Robert L. Park, a professor of physics at the University of Maryland, is the 
author of "Voodoo Science: The Road From Foolishness to Fraud."


http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/22/opinion/22park.html

_________________________________________________________________
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Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 11:42:39 -0500
From: Harry Veeder <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: the dark side of the moon
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Perhaps lifter technology will make a trip to the moon and beyond
affordable.

Harry

Alex Caliostro wrote:

> September 22, 2005
> The Dark Side of the Moon
> By ROBERT L. PARK
> 
> Correction Appended
> 
> College Park, Md.
> 
> THIS week NASA described plans to return astronauts to the Moon in 2018 at a
> cost of $104 billion. That's nine years after President Bush leaves office.
> Starting from scratch in 1961, President Kennedy's commitment to put a man
> on the Moon and return him safely to Earth was realized in just eight years.
> What is going on?
> 
> The Apollo 11 moon landing on July 16, 1969, transcended the superpower
> struggle for world domination that had motivated it. People everywhere were
> awed by what was above all an inspiring demonstration of human achievement.
> Could lunar colonies, expeditions to Mars and even the stars be far behind?
> 
> Just three years later, however, as the war in Southeast Asia drained
> American resources, the era of human space exploration abruptly ended. In 36
> years, no human has ventured beyond the relative safety of low-Earth orbit.
> Who could have imagined, on that magic night in the summer of 1969, that the
> moon might be as far into space as humans would ever go?
> 
> On the 20th anniversary of the Apollo 11 moon landing, President George H.
> W. Bush spoke from the steps of the National Air and Space Museum in
> Washington. The president called for a return to the moon and for a human
> expedition to Mars. "Like Columbus," he said, "we dream of distant shores
> we've not yet seen."
> 
> George W. Bush seems driven to complete his father's unfinished business in
> space, as in Iraq. But much has changed. The cold war, which provided the
> initial motivation for our space program, is long gone. And technological
> progress has superseded human space exploration. Remotely controlled
> instruments have become natural extensions of frail human bodies.
> 
> Much of what we yearn to discover in space is inaccessible to humans.
> Astronauts on Mars, locked in their spacesuits, could not venture far from
> shelter amid the constant bombardment of energetic particles that are
> unscreened by the thin atmosphere. Beyond Mars, there is no place humans can
> go in the foreseeable future. The great adventure of the 21st century will
> be to explore where no human can possibly set foot. The great quest is to
> find life to which we are not related. Could nature have solved the problem
> of life in some other way, in some other place? When we find out, we will
> know much more about ourselves.
> 
> Two mechanical geologists, Spirit and Opportunity, are doing this even now,
> by searching for evidence of water on opposite sides of Mars. They don't
> break for lunch or complain about the cold nights, and they live on
> sunshine. They've been at it for nearly two years, yet their mission costs
> less than sending a shuttle to the International Space Station. The brains
> of Spirit and Opportunity are the brains of geologists back on Earth.
> 
> Progress in society is measured by the extent to which work that is
> dangerous or menial is done by machines. The benefits we enjoy from the
> space program - weather satellites, communications satellites and global
> positioning - come from robotic spacecraft. Few scientists are calling for a
> human mission to the Moon or Mars. Human space exploration is essentially
> over. It is too expensive and provides too little return. But politicians
> know that the American public identifies progress in space with human
> astronauts.
> 
> The Bush administration's solution is to create an impossibly expensive and
> pointless program for some other administration to cancel, thus bearing the
> blame for ending human space exploration. The return to the moon is not a
> noble quest. It is a poison pill.
> 
> Correction:
> An Op-Ed article on Thursday about President Bush's plans to resume human
> exploration of the moon misstated the date of the Apollo 11 lunar landing.
> It was July 20, 1969, not July 16.
> 
> Robert L. Park, a professor of physics at the University of Maryland, is the
> author of "Voodoo Science: The Road From Foolishness to Fraud."
> 
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/22/opinion/22park.html
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
> http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
> 


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 24 09:07:28 2005
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Flood walls in New Orleans were ‘structurally flawed’

16:18 22 September 2005
NewScientist.com news service
Celeste Biever

Concrete flood walls that were supposed to protect New Orleans were not 
overwhelmed by high waters during Hurricane Katrina as federal officials 
have claimed, but ruptured because they were structurally flawed, according 
to Louisiana scientists.

>From the mud splattered on buildings still standing near to the flood walls 
and the results of a computer simulation of the storm - known as a 
“hindcast” - a team from the Hurricane Center at Louisiana State University 
in Baton Rouge claims it has pieced together how the walls, mounted on small 
earthen levees, must have broken.

“Either there was a design problem or a construction problem,” says Paul 
Kemp, an oceanographer at the centre. “They were not supposed to break.”

The US Army Corps of Engineers, responsible for building and maintaining the 
levees, still claims that the 4-metre walls were simply overtopped by the 
storm surge - the wall of water that is dragged by a rotating hurricane as 
it hits a coastline. “We are working from the preliminary theory that the 
levees were overtopped,” says spokesperson Paul Johnston in Washington DC.
High-water mark

The team says this was likely to be true of the southeastern part of New 
Orleans, which borders the Mississippi River and was supposed to be 
protected by metal sheets, also mounted on low earthen levees. It is 
convinced that on the northeast side the water never reached the top of the 
concrete walls. This part of the city was blasted by floodwater that 
overflowed from the London Avenue and 17th Street Canals, which link Lake 
Pontchartrain at the north to the Mississippi River.

The first clue came when predictions from their computer simulation, which 
runs on the university’s supercomputer and can reconstruct weather events, 
indicated that the storm surge should not have been high enough to top the 
levees. To investigate whether their simulation needed tweaking, the team 
went out to take measurements.

They found that the simulation was correct. The mud pattern splattered on 
nearby buildings showed that the waterline had reached a maximum of between 
3 and 3.5 metres, at least 50 centimetres shy of the height required to top 
the levees.

Kemp and his team also could tell from the levees that water had not flowed 
over them. “The way that they failed was not consistent with over-topping,” 
says Kemp. “If water goes over, it plunges down the backside and you get 
erosional scour. We didn’t see that.”
Walls breached

The walls are made of large plates of concrete about 20-feet wide that are 
glued together with rubber to form a thin wall, a bit like the teeth in a 
jaw. Kemp says that during the storm, plates had come apart from each other 
at the sides, letting water in through the gaps rather than over the top.

A large portion of the city that flooded would not have flooded had the 
walls stood firm as they were supposed to, he says.

Elizabeth English, also at the Hurricane Center, says a lack of maintenance 
as well as poor design or construction might have contributed to the failure 
of the walls.

Made of river sediment, the soil in New Orleans is very soft, so the levees 
require constant checking to ensure they have not been weakened or damaged 
by shifting soil.

She suspects that due to budget cuts, maintenance may have been overlooked. 
“When funding is cut and money is short, maintenance isn’t the issue that 
screams the loudest,” she says.

The Army Corps of Engineers employed contractors to build the walls, but 
says it will not be able to make further comments on exactly what was to 
blame until it has investigated and submitted a report, due in June 2006.

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn8038

_________________________________________________________________
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Israeli developer presents ‘breakthrough’ in onboard hydrogen generation

23rd September 2005

Israeli company Engineuity R&D Ltd has developed a technology for hydrogen 
production on board vehicles which it claims overcomes “all obstacles 
presently associated with hydrogen”. Using a light metal wire (such as 
aluminium, magnesium), water and a special conversion unit, the system 
produces a continuous flow of hydrogen and steam under full pressure, 
temperature and power control, to power a modified internal combustion 
engine.

The production unit can also be used for producing hydrogen for fuel cells 
and other applications requiring hydrogen and/or steam.

This technology, says Enginuity, solves two major problems: Firstly, 
security of fuel supply, and secondly, elimination of vehicle C02 output.

The spent product from Engineuity's process is a light metal oxide that is 
eventually separated for electrochemical recycling, hence no total loss 
consumption of metal resources. Engineuity is presently working on the 
integration of its production unit with a modified engine.

The vehicle envisaged by the company will contain a mechanism for rolling 
the metal wire into a coil during the process of fuelling. The spent metal 
oxide produced in the previous phase of operation is collected from the car 
by vacuum suction.

Enginuity claims the performance of its adapted i.c. engine will be 
identical to that of an existing petrol powered vehicle. The volume required 
for containing the metal wire is similar to the volume required for petrol; 
though its weight will be three times greater. The firm estimates that the 
cost of this new fuel will be comparable with petroleum fuels at present 
prices.

Engineuity R&D (www.engineuity.co.il) is a start-up company operating under 
the auspices of Ashkelon Technological Industries in the framework of the 
Israeli Chief Scientist's incubator programme. The company founders are: 
Prof. Amnon Yogev, recently retired from the Weizmann Institute of Science, 
where he, among other functions, led the Energy Research Center. Prof. Yogev 
was a member of various EU energy-related committees, planning the 6th 
Framework Programme.

Colonel (Ret.) Elie Gamzon, Aeronautics and computers engineer, served 20 
years as a development engineer in the Israeli Air Force, and held various 
positions in the defence services. During the 80's, Mr. Gamzon founded and 
managed Silver Arrow until it was acquired by Elbit Systems in 1997.

The technology was developed in cooperation with Alubin R&D Ltd., Opuntia 
led by Prof. Eran Sher and the Technion Institute of Technology. Initial 
investment was provided by Ormat Industries Ltd. Engineuity is presently 
raising capital to fund the construction of an integrated engine prototype.

http://www.autoindustry.co.uk/news/industry_news/23-09-05_12

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Hi Alex,

I am finding your posts of value and I think it would also be helpful and 
appropriate for you to prepend subject lines of topics such as this with 
"OT," if you would be so kind.

Steve

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Subject: RE: cheaper than oil?
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That's kind of funny.  Somewhere on Bill's website is
a description of the same thing done, I believe, back
in the 70s.

This really amounts to yet another energy offset scheme.
The only practical candidate for this method is aluminum,
and, as we all know, that takes huge amounts of electrical
energy to produce.  So the open question is: Is the
electrolytic reduction of aluminum more efficient than
the electrolytic decomposition of water to hydrogen. Of
course, a roll of aluminum wire isn't going to blow up,
so that's a consideration.

The major source of hydrogen, reforming methane, produces
C02 as a byproduct. So, for you carbon-neutral fans, that
wouldn't be a competive option.

M.

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 24 10:48:49 2005
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From: "Alex Caliostro" <caliostro1795 hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: fuel cell motorcycle
Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 11:47:56 -0600
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but where to get h2

http://www.envbike.com/

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 24 10:55:05 2005
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From: "Alex Caliostro" <caliostro1795 hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: OT: the walls come a tumblin
Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 11:54:08 -0600
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>From: Steven Krivit

>I am finding your posts of value and I think it would also be helpful and 
>appropriate for you to prepend subject lines of topics such as this with 
>"OT," if you would be so kind.

sure, but i was only responding to this one

http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l%40eskimo.com/msg08294.html

whose heading caused no complaints

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 24 11:11:37 2005
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From: "Mark Goldes" <mgoldes msn.com>
To: michael.foster excite.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: RE: cheaper than oil?
Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 11:10:38 -0700
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Aluminum batteries with replaceable anodes were considered at great expense 
by Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory back in the 70's.  If memory 
serves, it only takes about 5% of the original energy to recycle the oxide.  
LLNL estimated it might become practical when gasoline exceeded about 
$3.50/gallon.  That figure is not inflation adjusted.  ALCAN purchased the 
rights and eventually dropped the program.

Wire has also been patented for this purpose in the U.S.  I cannot remember 
the details, but it never became practical.

Mark


>From: "Michael Foster" <michael.foster excite.com>
>Reply-To: michael.foster excite.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: RE: cheaper than oil?
>Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 13:46:32 -0400 (EDT)
>
>
>That's kind of funny.  Somewhere on Bill's website is
>a description of the same thing done, I believe, back
>in the 70s.
>
>This really amounts to yet another energy offset scheme.
>The only practical candidate for this method is aluminum,
>and, as we all know, that takes huge amounts of electrical
>energy to produce.  So the open question is: Is the
>electrolytic reduction of aluminum more efficient than
>the electrolytic decomposition of water to hydrogen. Of
>course, a roll of aluminum wire isn't going to blow up,
>so that's a consideration.
>
>The major source of hydrogen, reforming methane, produces
>C02 as a byproduct. So, for you carbon-neutral fans, that
>wouldn't be a competive option.
>
>M.
>
>_______________________________________________
>Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
>The most personalized portal on the Web!
>
>


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 24 11:40:26 2005
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Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 11:36:58 -0700
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Steven Krivit <steven newenergytimes.com>
Subject: Re: OT: the walls come a tumblin
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Oh, my error then, sorry.
I guess I thought you had been posting a lot of OT stuff without noting such.

Thanks,

s

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 24 11:50:37 2005
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Mass-Producible Hydrogen Fuel Cells

September 21, 2005
Fronius Inverters

[RenewableEnergyAccess.com] American Security Resources' Hydra Fuel Cell has 
formed Hydra Fuel Cell Manufacturing to produce the proprietary Hydra 
hydrogen fuel cell. The Hydra fuel cell is an energy source with a range of 
commercial and military applications. The company claims that an advantage 
of this proprietary technology allows for low-cost, highly scalable 
manufacturing. Each 5 kW unit is individually hot-swappable and 
rack-mountable and can be placed in eight unit modules that produce 40 kW. 
American Security Resources is acquiring exclusive licensing and 
manufacturing rights to the Hydra fuel cell from EGO Design, which holds the 
patents for the Hydra silicon-based, hydrogen fuel cells.

http://www.renewableenergyaccess.com/rea/news/story?id=36862

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 24 11:57:07 2005
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From: "Alex Caliostro" <caliostro1795 hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: OT: the walls come a tumblin
Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 12:56:02 -0600
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>From: Steven Krivit

>Oh, my error then, sorry.
>I guess I thought you had been posting a lot of OT stuff without noting 
>such.

do you read them

this is a science list innit --  i would think that anything from 
newscientist would be on topic but im new here and dont really know

is there a probationary period for newbies

is this on topic

http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l eskimo.com/msg08253.html

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 24 12:11:36 2005
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From: "Alex Caliostro" <caliostro1795 hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: RE: cheaper than oil?
Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 13:10:42 -0600
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>From: "Michael Foster"

>The major source of hydrogen, reforming methane, produces
>C02 as a byproduct. So, for you carbon-neutral fans, that
>wouldn't be a competive option.

unless this works   -alex

Atlantic Hydrogen Inc. receives $2 million contribution from Sustainable 
Development Technology Canada

    Clean Technology Development Advances Hydrogen Economy

    FREDERICTON, NB, Sept. 20 /CNW/ - A Canadian consortium led by Atlantic
Hydrogen Inc. of Fredericton confirmed today a $2 million contribution from
Sustainable Development Technology Canada (SDTC) for a project to develop 
and
demonstrate a technology to produce hydrogen and remove solid carbon from
natural gas without releasing harmful greenhouse gases. Many industry 
analysts
believe that the successful transition to the hydrogen economy will depend 
on
extracting hydrogen from fossil fuels using more environmentally sensitive
processes.
    SDTC's support has been leveraged by a contribution of $4 million from
private consortium members including the University of New Brunswick (UNB) 
in
Fredericton, Energy Reaction Inc. of Montreal, PrecisionH2 Power Inc. of
Montreal, the Canadian energy firm Enbridge Inc. and Hydrogen Engine Centre 
of
Iowa. The value of the project is $6 million.
    Atlantic Hydrogen Inc.'s technology (AHI), the CarbonSaver(TM), will 
feed
hydrogen-rich natural gas to internal combustion engines that generate
electricity. At the same time, this innovation removes the carbon in solid
form rather than return it to the atmosphere as carbon dioxide. The new
technology being developed in this three-year project is expected to be of
particular importance for its efficacy in distributed power and refuelling
applications linked to the existing natural gas distribution grid.
    "This funding marks a significant advancement for Atlantic Hydrogen,"
says Bill Stanley, Chairman. "The successful development and demonstration 
of
these integrated systems will be our first move into a market of sustainable
energy demands and environmental protection issues. We expect the
CarbonSaver(TM) will provide solutions to both."
    "The mix of skills and experience being contributed by the various
partners makes this a collaborative project," says Stanley. "The
CarbonSaver(TM) will be the front end of an integrated system that includes 
a
specially designed internal combustion engine coupled with an electrical
generator and power conditioning device. The end result will be cleaner
systems for generating electricity from natural gas for use as operating
power, peak-shaving power and emergency backup power for commercial
buildings."
    "Innovations such as this will help broaden Canada's mix of clean,
reliable sources of electricity," said the Honourable Andy Scott, Minister 
of
Indian Affairs and Northern Development on behalf of the Government of 
Canada.
"This technology will help reduce greenhouse gas emissions, build expertise 
in
clean energy and help us move toward a greener future. It's also very
encouraging to see Atlantic Canada on the leading edge of this technology
through Atlantic Hydrogen, UNB and other partners."
    "Today's announcement is evidence of our country's rapidly evolving
capacity for green technology innovation and the strides that can be made 
when
partners along the supply chain come together - product developers,
distributors and customers," said Vicky J. Sharpe, SDTC's President and CEO.
"SDTC does more than fund projects. Our strategic support is facilitating 
the
assembly of such consortia so that we may accelerate the market success of
clean technologies, and bring the derivative economic, social and
environmental benefits to Canadians swiftly."

    About SDTC
    Sustainable Development Technology Canada is a foundation created by the
Government of Canada that operates a $550 million fund to support the
development and demonstration of clean technologies - solutions that address
issues of climate change, clean air, and water and soil quality to deliver
environmental, economic and health benefits to Canadians.
    An arm's length, not-for-profit corporation, SDTC fills the void in the
innovation chain between research and commercialization - helping clean
technology developers move through the development and demonstration phases,
in preparation for commercialization.
    SDTC encourages collaboration among private, financial, academic, public
sector partners and with the Government of Canada and all levels of 
government
to build a sustainable development infrastructure in Canada.
    To date, SDTC has completed six funding rounds, committed $126 million 
to
60 clean technology projects, and leveraged $354 million from project
consortia members. SDTC currently manages $480 million in projects. This
represents a 3:1 ratio of industry-partner contribution to SDTC investment.

    About Atlantic Hydrogen Inc.
    Atlantic Hydrogen Inc. (AHI) is a New Brunswick-based company involved 
in
research and development of an environmentally friendly energy technology, 
the
CarbonSaver(TM). Research is being conducted under contract to the 
University
of New Brunswick in Fredericton.
    AHI expects that the successful demonstration of the made-in-Canada
CarbonSaver(TM) technology over the next three years will lead to a
commercially viable bridge to the sustainable clean energy promise of the
global hydrogen economy.

http://www.cnw.ca/fr/releases/archive/September2005/20/c1523.html

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Hi Alex and Welcome!

I'm not sure how long you've been on the list. I may be off-base here, but 
you might want to just take a look for a while and get the feel of Vortex. 
It does have a unique culture.

The most valuable thing about Vortex, and about your potential 
contributions, is not as a news feed, but for creative, profound and 
in-depth commentary, critique, and at times, intense discussion.

I'm looking forward to your contributions and participation!




Steven B. Krivit
Editor, New Energy Times
Executive Director, New Energy Institute Inc.
<http://www.newenergytimes.com/>NEW<http://www.newenergytimes.com/> ENERGY 
TIMES
Your best source for cold fusion news and information.


--=====================_1031088625==.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
<body>
Hi Alex and Welcome!<br><br>
I'm not sure how long you've been on the list. I may be off-base here,
but you might want to just take a look for a while and get the feel of
Vortex. It does have a unique culture.<br><br>
The most valuable thing about Vortex, and about your potential
contributions, is not as a news feed, but for creative, profound and
in-depth commentary, critique, and at times, intense discussion.<br><br>
I'm looking forward to your contributions and participation!<br><br>
<br><br>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
Steven B. Krivit<br>
Editor, New Energy Times<br>
Executive Director, New Energy Institute Inc.<br>
<font size=4><b><i><a href="http://www.newenergytimes.com/">NEW</a>
<a href="http://www.newenergytimes.com/"> ENERGY
TIMES</a></i></b></font><font size=5> <br>
</font><b><i>Your best source for cold fusion news and information.
<br><br>
</b></i></body>
</html>

--=====================_1031088625==.ALT--

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>From: Steven Krivit

>Hi Alex and Welcome!
>
>I'm not sure how long you've been on the list. I may be off-base here, but 
>you might want to just take a look for a while and get the feel of Vortex. 
>It does have a unique culture.
>
>The most valuable thing about Vortex, and about your potential 
>contributions, is not as a news feed, but for creative, profound and 
>in-depth commentary, critique, and at times, intense discussion.
>
>I'm looking forward to your contributions and participation!

im sorry steve -- i did not realize this was your list

when i subscribed i got the message below from a bill beaty -- i simply 
assumed it was his list

i carefully read the rules and did not see the restrictions that you have 
placed on the list --  did i get an old set of rules

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                         WELCOME TO VORTEX-L
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WARNING: AT LEAST READ THE RULES!
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The Vortex-L list was originally created for discussions of professional
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1. If VORTEX-L proves very useful or interesting to you, please consider
   making a $10US/yr donation to help cover operating expenses.  If you
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   would like to give more, please do!  Direct your check to the
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2. NO SNEERING.   Ridicule, derision, scoffing, and ad-hominem is
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   MORE AT http://amasci.com/weird/vmore.txt  (please read.)

3. Small email files please.  The limit is set to 40K right now, those
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4. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE: when you reply to a message DON'T include the
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acceptable.

   - Bill B.

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 24 13:18:26 2005
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From: "Alex Caliostro" <caliostro1795 hotmail.com>
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>From: "Alex Caliostro"

>did i get an old set of rules

>6. Our forum is not your self-promotion channel.

after reviewing the recent archives i am convinced that i *do* have an old 
set of rules

i see a remarkable amount of self promotion going on here

warmest regards,

-alex

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 24 13:32:50 2005
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Subject: RE: Welcome to Vortex
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Hey Alex,

No Way!  It ain't my list!

Literally, Bill is the literal owner, but this list exists and thrives from 
community participation and involvement. I welcomed you just because you 
were new and I thought it was a friendly thing to do.

Cheers!

Steve

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------=_Part_991_15337611.1127596664452
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he didnt quote any rules, he was telling you what people liked about vortex=
.
and im with him. im kinda finding your constant news posts a bit much. mayb=
e
one a day with links to all the articles, and let discussion go from there?

On 9/24/05, Alex Caliostro <caliostro1795 hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >From: Steven Krivit
>
> >Hi Alex and Welcome!
> >
> >I'm not sure how long you've been on the list. I may be off-base here,
> but
> >you might want to just take a look for a while and get the feel of
> Vortex.
> >It does have a unique culture.
> >
> >The most valuable thing about Vortex, and about your potential
> >contributions, is not as a news feed, but for creative, profound and
> >in-depth commentary, critique, and at times, intense discussion.
> >
> >I'm looking forward to your contributions and participation!
>
> im sorry steve -- i did not realize this was your list
>
> when i subscribed i got the message below from a bill beaty -- i simply
> assumed it was his list
>
> i carefully read the rules and did not see the restrictions that you have
> placed on the list -- did i get an old set of rules
>
>
> *************************************************************************=
****
> WELCOME TO VORTEX-L
>
> *************************************************************************=
****
>
> WARNING: AT LEAST READ THE RULES!
> 1. $10/yr donation
> 2. NO SNEERING
> 3. KEEP MESSAGES UNDER 40K
> 4. DON'T QUOTE ENTIRE MESSAGES NEEDLESSLY
> 5. DON'T CC OTHER LIST SERVERS
> 6. NO SPAMMERS
>
> The Vortex-L list was originally created for discussions of professional
> research into fluid vortex/cavitation devices which exhibit anomalous
> energy effects (ie: the inventions of Schaeffer, Huffman, Griggs, and
> Potapov among others.) Skeptics beware, the topics also wander to any
> anomalous physics such as "Cold Fusion," reports of excess energy in "fre=
e
> energy" devices, chemical transmutation, gravity generation and detection=
,
> and all sorts of supposedly crackpot claims. Please see the rules below.
> This is a public, lightly-moderated list. Interested parties are welcome
> to subscribe. PLEASE READ THE RULES BEFORE SUBSCRIBING. There is no
> charge, but donations towards expenses are accepted (see rules below for
> suggested donation.)
>
> Admin addr: vortex-L-request eskimo.com
>
> Mail addr: vortex-L eskimo.com
>
> Webpage: http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/weird/wvort.html
>
> Moderator: billb eskimo.com
> William J. Beaty
> 7540 20th Ave NW
> Seattle, WA 98117
> 206-788-0775 USA
>
> *************************************************************************
> Vortex-L subscription instructions:
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> MORE AT http://amasci.com/weird/vmore.txt (please read.)
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>
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> Occasional on-topic advertizing by long-time vortex-L users is
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> _________________________________________________________________
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--
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ke
it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire

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he didnt quote any rules, he was telling you what people liked about vortex=
.&nbsp; and im with him.&nbsp; im kinda finding your constant news posts a =
bit much.&nbsp; maybe one a day with links to all the articles, and let dis=
cussion go from there?
<br><br>
<div><span class=3D"gmail_quote">On 9/24/05, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">=
Alex Caliostro</b> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:caliostro1795 hotmail.com">caliost=
ro1795 hotmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</span>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">&gt;From: Steven Krivit<br><br>&=
gt;Hi Alex and Welcome!<br>&gt;<br>&gt;I'm not sure how long you've been on=
 the list. I may be off-base here, but
<br>&gt;you might want to just take a look for a while and get the feel of =
Vortex.<br>&gt;It does have a unique culture.<br>&gt;<br>&gt;The most valua=
ble thing about Vortex, and about your potential<br>&gt;contributions, is n=
ot as a news feed, but for creative, profound and
<br>&gt;in-depth commentary, critique, and at times, intense discussion.<br=
>&gt;<br>&gt;I'm looking forward to your contributions and participation!<b=
r><br>im sorry steve -- i did not realize this was your list<br><br>when i =
subscribed i got the message below from a bill beaty -- i simply
<br>assumed it was his list<br><br>i carefully read the rules and did not s=
ee the restrictions that you have<br>placed on the list --&nbsp;&nbsp;did i=
 get an old set of rules<br><br>*******************************************=
**********************************
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;WE=
LCOME TO VORTEX-L<br>******************************************************=
***********************<br><br>WARNING: AT LEAST READ THE RULES!<br>1. $10/=
yr donation<br>2. NO SNEERING<br>3. KEEP MESSAGES UNDER 40K
<br>4. DON'T QUOTE ENTIRE MESSAGES NEEDLESSLY<br>5. DON'T CC OTHER LIST SER=
VERS<br>6. NO SPAMMERS<br><br>The Vortex-L list was originally created for =
discussions of professional<br>research into fluid vortex/cavitation device=
s which exhibit anomalous
<br>energy effects (ie: the inventions of Schaeffer, Huffman, Griggs, and<b=
r>Potapov among others.)&nbsp;&nbsp;Skeptics beware, the topics also wander=
 to any<br>anomalous physics such as &quot;Cold Fusion,&quot; reports of ex=
cess energy in &quot;free
<br>energy&quot; devices, chemical transmutation, gravity generation and de=
tection,<br>and all sorts of supposedly crackpot claims.&nbsp;&nbsp;Please =
see the rules below.<br>This is a public, lightly-moderated list.&nbsp;&nbs=
p;Interested parties are welcome
<br>to subscribe.&nbsp;&nbsp;PLEASE READ THE RULES BEFORE SUBSCRIBING.&nbsp=
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see rules below for<br>suggested donation.)<br><br>Admin addr: <a href=3D"m=
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lto:vortex-L eskimo.com">vortex-L@eskimo.com</a><br><br>Webpage:&nbsp;&nbsp=
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</a><br><br>Moderator:&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href=3D"mailto:billb eskimo.com">billb=
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bsp; William J. Beaty<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp; 7540 20th Ave NW<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Seattle, WA 98117<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
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e access to<br>the older account address, you can unsubscribe yourself usin=
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<br><br>*******************************************************************=
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<br><br>This will happen if your email address starts bouncing all vortex-L=
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le<br>email-loops, and to prevent the <a href=3D"http://eskimo.com">eskimo.=
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ber takes you off, it sends you a message explaining<br>its action.&nbsp;&n=
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>your viewpoint the message traffic from Vortex-L will suddenly cease.
<br><br>If the email server on your internet service has a habit of overloa=
ding<br>or crashing for several days at at time, you will probably encounte=
r the<br>Unsubscriber.&nbsp;&nbsp;If vortex-L traffic seems to suddenly sto=
p, or if your
<br>messages to the group are returned with warnings that you are not<br>su=
bscribed, simply resubscribe to Vortex-L.&nbsp;&nbsp;Missed messages are<br=
>available as textfiles on the Vortex-L webpage, or go to the escribe<br>ar=
chive at=20
<a href=3D"http://www.escribe.com/science/vortex/">http://www.escribe.com/s=
cience/vortex/</a><br><br>*************************************************=
*************************<br>Vortex-L Rules:<br><br>1. $10/yr donation<br>
2. NO SNEERING<br>3. KEEP MESSAGES UNDER 40K<br>4. DON'T QUOTE ENTIRE MESSA=
GES NEEDLESSLY<br>5. DON'T CC OTHER LIST SERVERS<br>6. NO SPAMMING<br><br><=
br>1. If VORTEX-L proves very useful or interesting to you, please consider
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;making a $10US/yr donation to help cover operating expenses=
.&nbsp;&nbsp;If you<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;cannot afford this, please feel free to =
participate anyway.&nbsp;&nbsp;If you<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;would like to give mor=
e, please do!&nbsp;&nbsp;Direct your check to the<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;moderator,=
 address above.&nbsp;&nbsp;Any help you can give is sincerely
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;appreciated.<br><br>2. NO SNEERING.&nbsp;&nbsp; Ridicule, d=
erision, scoffing, and ad-hominem is<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;banned. &quot;Pathologi=
cal Skepticism&quot; is banned (see<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href=3D"http://amasci=
.com/pathsk2.txt)">http://amasci.com/pathsk2.txt)
</a>&nbsp;&nbsp;The tone here should be one of<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;legitimate di=
sagreement and respectful debate.&nbsp;&nbsp;Vortex-L is a big nasty<br>&nb=
sp;&nbsp;nest of 'true believers' (hopefully having some tendency to avoid<=
br>&nbsp;&nbsp;self-deception,) and skeptics may as well leave in disgust.&=
nbsp;&nbsp;But if
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;your mind is open and you wish to test &quot;crazy&quot; cl=
aims rather than<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;ridiculing them or explaining them away, ho=
p on&nbsp;&nbsp;board!<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;MORE AT <a href=3D"http://amasci.com/=
weird/vmore.txt">http://amasci.com/weird/vmore.txt
</a>&nbsp;&nbsp;(please read.)<br><br>3. Small email files please.&nbsp;&nb=
sp;The limit is set to 40K right now, those<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;exceeding the li=
mit will be forwarded to Bill Beaty.&nbsp;&nbsp;If you wish to<br>&nbsp;&nb=
sp;start extremely off-topic discussions, please feel free to exchange
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;initial messages on vortex-L, but MOVE THE DISCUSSION TO PR=
IVATE MAIL<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;IMMEDIATELY.&nbsp;&nbsp;Some members are on limit=
ed service, or have to pay for<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;received email.&nbsp;&nbsp;Di=
agrams and graphics can be mailed to me and posted
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;on a webpages for temporary viewing.<br><br>4. PLEASE PLEAS=
E PLEASE: when you reply to a message DON'T include the<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;ENTI=
RE message in your reply.&nbsp;&nbsp;Always edit it a bit and delete<br>&nb=
sp;&nbsp;something.&nbsp;&nbsp;The more you delete, the less traffic overlo=
ad.&nbsp;&nbsp;The entire
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;message should really only be included if: (A) you are repl=
ying to a<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;message that is many days old, or (B) you are doin=
g a point-by-point<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;reply to many parts of a message.&nbsp;&n=
bsp;Many vortex users must pay by the
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;kilobyte for receiving message traffic, and large amounts o=
f redundant<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;messages are irritating and expensive.&nbsp;&nbs=
p;So, when including a quoted<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;message in your reply, ALWAYS =
DELETE SOMETHING, the more the better.
<br><br>5. Please do not include any other email list in the TO line or the=
 CC<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;line of your messages to vortex-L.&nbsp;&nbsp;In the pas=
t this has caused<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;thread leakage between different lists and=
 redundant messages as<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;replies from subscribers go to both lists.&nbsp;&nbsp;It's OK t=
o manually forward<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;mail from other lists to vortex-L, as lon=
g as the TO line and CC line<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;has only vortex-L and no other =
list.<br><br>6. Our forum is not your self-promotion channel.&nbsp;&nbsp;Wh=
ile not illegal
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;yet, widecasting of junk-email ads to listservers is agains=
t the<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;Unwritten Rules of the Internet.&nbsp;&nbsp;Anyone who=
 spams vortex-L with junkmail<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;will be referred to the Intern=
et Vigilante Justice team.&nbsp;&nbsp;;)<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;Occasional on-topic=
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<br>acceptable.<br><br>&nbsp;&nbsp;- Bill B.<br><br>_______________________=
__________________________________________<br>Express yourself instantly wi=
th MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!<br><a href=3D"http://messenge=
r.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/">
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/</a><br><br>=
</blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br>&quot;Monsieur l'abb=E9=
, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for=
 you to continue to write&quot;&nbsp;&nbsp;Voltaire=20

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 24 15:34:05 2005
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Subject: Third World Energy
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My recent posts about super cheap fresnel solar concentrators
have generated a lot more interest than I would have imagined.
Some have expressed, both on and off-list, that this might help
energy problems in the third world. This is a perfectly valid
concern, and one which I happen to share. After all, if you find
yourself unemployed in an industrialized nation, you might get
fat from lying there watching too much satellite TV. If it happens
to you in Africa, for example, they might find your ribcage in a
drainage ditch. Energy is now a key component of any economy.

I think a very cautious and well thought-out approach to this is
essential. An unemotional analysis of the real economic, cultural
and governmental problems is in order before a technical fix is
brought to bear. A nation suffering under a murderous, corrupt
despot will not benefit from any amount of inventive and/or well
intentioned technological assistance. I have no idea what to do
about that. Nor, apparently, does anyone else.

Those of us who have thought of numerous schemes to solve
energy problems in the third world, need to analyze our motives
a little more closely before we become a bit too enthusiastic. I've
named a couple of examples that are pretty indicative of things
that have failed to find resonance. One is Steenblik's amazing
spiral fresnel solar concentrator; the other is that interesting wind-
up radio. They both appealed to me. Why didn't they solve any
third world problems? I'm sure there are more elaborate examples
that have also not worked nor been accepted. A counter-example,
I think, is a foot-powered water pump. Pumping water is apparently
one third world problem that needs to be solved and solved
simply.

There are some things that might distort your perspective if you
are an inventive sort of person and think you have a way to make
inexpensive energy available to the third world.  Simple over-
enthusiam is one.  Well, you know, we all want to save the world.

What I call "Gilligan's Island Syndrome" is another conceit likely
to blind someone to the possiblilty that his pet invention or idea
may not only be inappropriate for developing nations, but anywhere
at all.  I'm afraid that this is the error that most attracts me. "Look
Ginger, the Professor has made a shortwave radio out of some
rocks and bamboo strips!" (RIP, Bob Denver)

The worst possible example of this is portrayed in the film 
"Mosquito Coast", which if you haven't seen it, is based on the
true story of a man who wants to leave civilization behind, takes
his family to the eponymous place, builds a refrigeration plant,
and creates hell on earth. This is rather a technological Heart of
Darkness.  

The lesson of all of this is, make sure it works, make sure it's
appropriate and most of all, make sure it's wanted.

I hope my fresnel lenses will find a role in energy production, but 
this is perhaps a stop-gap.  The real prize is viable, portable energy
based on cold fusion.  As many on this list have said, it will change
the world in ways we can't imagine. So get to work, you slackers!

M.







_______________________________________________
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From: "Alex Caliostro" <caliostro1795 hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: ot?  project stormfury, cloud seeding and ice nine
Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 18:18:16 -0600
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gnorts, vorts, and you, too, mr alien,

earlier i posted information on project stormfury -- seeing as noone went 
for the bait for this troll - i will show how this is on-topic

does anyone know who came up with the idea to use silver iodide xtals to try 
to lessen the fury of a hurricane

was it kurt vonnegut

would ice nine help

maybe not -- but it *was* someone near and dear to our hearts, nobel prize 
winning irving langmuir, the man who inspired moller to try to demonstrate 
that atomic hydrogen could be a source of energy re: naudin's mahg

of course, we all know that moller made a calorific mistake -- and we never 
know where inspiration might originate

but, do ya think maybe the seeding of clouds inspired aforementioned kurt

after all it was his older brother working with langmuir who came up with 
the seedy idea

"During World War II Langmuir worked with Vincent Schaefer, also of General 
Electric, and Bernard Vonnegut, developing protective smoke screens and 
methods for de-icing aricraft wings. This research led him to work in the 
controversial area of weather control, using dry ice pellets and silver 
iodide crystals to seed clouds."

http://www.woodrow.org/teachers/chemistry/institutes/1992/Langmuir.html

-alex

_________________________________________________________________
On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to 
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BlankMichael,
So many in the industrialized nations are wantful of helping 3rd =
worlders. The task is in assessing what is helpful and what harms. In =
the convoluted African nations such as  Sudan wehave a seeming paradox. =
Us organizations like Living Waters send waterwell drilling truck and =
teams over th drill water wells and install equipment to hand pump and =
disinfect only to learn after they leave .. the adjacent tribe comes and =
destroys the work. In other locations on earth, if you help, you adopt =
for a lifetime. You save their life and you are responsible for taking =
care of them over their lifetime. If you organize the manufacturing and =
distribution of something like described below.. you discover you can't =
import the device unto a 3rd world nation without going thru customs. =
Whats the rub?? The leadership of the nation wants you to give them the =
units  and in turn they sell them to the needy, provided ,of course, the =
needy are on their side of the political regime.

Our company proposed designing a small " combo" hotplate and still. The =
all ceramic hotplate would be filled with dry salt and have internal =
tubing coils to recirculate hot liquid to raise the internal temperature =
to 400+ degree F. The still would be a simple boiling water  steam =
condensing vapor unit. We worked out the problem of differential =
pressure feed to the still and across the hotplate to avoid steam flash =
( a very unique method and tricky solution using 3 simple viton earplug =
type piping inserts). The tubing would be sections of pirex and easily =
disassembleds for "rodding" out scale.

The heat source would be the sun  on a magnifying glass concentrating on =
an element similar to a Mr. Coffee electric element that " gurgles" =
water up the riser and let  gravity and steam pressure do the rest of =
the work. The device would be portable and fit into a suitcase sized =
container. Bingo!,   make tortillas and have 3 gallons of potable water =
every sunshiney day. We considered a battery of small circular fresnel =
lense imbedded in a sheet of plastic in lieu of a magnifying glass =
because we could unfurl a sheet. Each sheet containing many small =
fresnels being characterized in a focal pattern that compensates for the =
sun angle over a 7 hour period of daytime.
Unfortunately we were never able to locate a source of fresnel sheeting =
and the whole project later died on its feet. The fresnel sheet should =
unfurl to the size of a small umbrella with a similar shape.

I did look up Steenblik's patent # 4750412 and ref # 4789921. I can see =
why it never flew.

Richard



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<DIV>Michael,</DIV>
<DIV>So many in the industrialized nations are wantful of helping 3rd =
worlders.=20
The task is in assessing what is helpful and what harms. In the =
convoluted=20
African nations such as&nbsp; Sudan wehave a seeming paradox. Us =
organizations=20
like Living Waters send waterwell drilling truck and teams over th drill =
water=20
wells and install equipment to hand pump and disinfect only to learn =
after they=20
leave .. the adjacent tribe comes and destroys the work. In other =
locations on=20
earth, if you help, you adopt for a lifetime. You save their life and =
you are=20
responsible for taking care of them over their lifetime. If you organize =
the=20
manufacturing and distribution of something like described below.. you =
discover=20
you can't import the device unto a 3rd world nation without going thru =
customs.=20
Whats the rub?? The leadership of the nation wants you to give them the=20
units&nbsp; and in turn they sell them to the needy, provided ,of =
course, the=20
needy are on their side of the political regime.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Our company proposed designing a small " combo" hotplate and still. =
The all=20
ceramic hotplate would be filled with dry salt and have internal tubing =
coils to=20
recirculate hot liquid to raise the internal temperature to 400+ degree =
F. The=20
still would be a simple boiling water&nbsp; steam condensing vapor unit. =
We=20
worked out the problem of differential pressure feed to the still and =
across the=20
hotplate to avoid steam flash ( a very unique method and tricky solution =
using 3=20
simple viton earplug type&nbsp;piping inserts).&nbsp;The tubing would be =

sections of pirex and easily disassembleds for "rodding" out =
scale.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The heat source would be the sun&nbsp; on a magnifying glass =
concentrating=20
on an element similar to a Mr. Coffee electric element that " gurgles" =
water up=20
the riser and let&nbsp; gravity and steam pressure do the rest of the =
work. The=20
device would be portable and fit into a suitcase sized container.=20
Bingo!,&nbsp;&nbsp; make tortillas and have 3 gallons of potable water =
every=20
sunshiney day. We considered a battery of&nbsp;small circular fresnel =
lense=20
imbedded in a sheet of plastic in lieu of a magnifying glass because we =
could=20
unfurl a sheet. Each sheet containing many small fresnels being=20
characterized&nbsp;in a focal pattern that compensates for the sun angle =
over a=20
7 hour period of daytime.</DIV>
<DIV>Unfortunately we were never able to locate a source of fresnel =
sheeting and=20
the whole project later died on its feet. The fresnel sheet should =
unfurl to the=20
size of a small umbrella with a similar shape.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>I did look up Steenblik's patent # 4750412 and ref # 4789921. I can =
see why=20
it never flew.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Richard</DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></DIV>
<P>&nbsp;</P></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 24 17:55:24 2005
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Sept. 24, 2005

Vortex,

Hi Mike,

Your post on your ability to produce "super cheap Fresnel lens" have been
very interesting. You have not mentioned its availability to Vortex
experimenters (or anybody else) who may be desirous of "saving the world"
by experimenting with the product on the retail level. I take it that
perhaps you are looking for some venture capitalists to come forth so the
lens can be put into production. Considering that blank CD's (which looks
somewhat like a lens) can be made so cheaply, I shouldn't wonder that your
Fresnel lens can be made cheaply as well. I hope those lens can be made
available soon.
UCLA was a federal land grant college. Being so, there was a requirement
that all incoming male freshmen students take two years of ROTC training in
either one of the three branches of the military. I picked the Air ROTC but
we never got close to a 'plane. Instead we learned to march and learned
about geopolitics. And one of the topics discussed was how we could help
the third world counties boot strap themselves out of poverty by using
simple, cheap technology.
One of the problems facing areas of the third world was fuel. In the case
of India at the time of the 1950's, the farming land was impoverished
because, for the lack of any kind of usual fuel sources, the people
resorted using their sacred cow's dried droppings for fuel. This burnt up
any organic enrichment of the land. (human droppings do not work as well as
a cow does?) 
The American government at the time under Truman had what was called a
"Point Four Program". It supported a development of  several self help
program which I do not remember all. But one of them supported the
development of a village fish farm as a protein source and the other, the
use of a solar heated cooking stove using a large parabolic mirror. Good
ideas but nothing did come it that I noticed. Meanwhile the Administration
changed, I got drafted into the Army anyway and life got too busy to
survive here to worry about the third world.
It was interesting to find that Steven Jones (of the other CF fame) was
fiddling around with parabolic solar cooking in recent years at the Mormon
University of Utah. Mormons seem bent on "saving the world" also with their
"Point Four" program. Perhaps the natives can be converted easier on a full
stomach. So, what goes around comes around. Or as someone said. ---- we are
doomed to repeat it.
The cheap Fresnel lens may have an important place in the energy scheme of
things. So how can we get a hold of some?

Sincerely,
-ak-  

> Subject: Third World Energy
>
>
> My recent posts about super cheap fresnel solar concentrators
> have generated a lot more interest than I would have imagined.
> Some have expressed, both on and off-list, that this might help
> energy problems in the third world. This is a perfectly valid
> concern, and one which I happen to share. After all, if you find
> yourself unemployed in an industrialized nation, you might get
> fat from lying there watching too much satellite TV. If it happens
> to you in Africa, for example, they might find your ribcage in a
> drainage ditch. Energy is now a key component of any economy.
>
> I think a very cautious and well thought-out approach to this is
> essential. An unemotional analysis of the real economic, cultural
> and governmental problems is in order before a technical fix is
> brought to bear. A nation suffering under a murderous, corrupt
> despot will not benefit from any amount of inventive and/or well
> intentioned technological assistance. I have no idea what to do
> about that. Nor, apparently, does anyone else.
>
> Those of us who have thought of numerous schemes to solve
> energy problems in the third world, need to analyze our motives
> a little more closely before we become a bit too enthusiastic. I've
> named a couple of examples that are pretty indicative of things
> that have failed to find resonance. One is Steenblik's amazing
> spiral fresnel solar concentrator; the other is that interesting wind-
> up radio. They both appealed to me. Why didn't they solve any
> third world problems? I'm sure there are more elaborate examples
> that have also not worked nor been accepted. A counter-example,
> I think, is a foot-powered water pump. Pumping water is apparently
> one third world problem that needs to be solved and solved
> simply.
>
> There are some things that might distort your perspective if you
> are an inventive sort of person and think you have a way to make
> inexpensive energy available to the third world.  Simple over-
> enthusiam is one.  Well, you know, we all want to save the world.
>
> What I call "Gilligan's Island Syndrome" is another conceit likely
> to blind someone to the possiblilty that his pet invention or idea
> may not only be inappropriate for developing nations, but anywhere
> at all.  I'm afraid that this is the error that most attracts me. "Look
> Ginger, the Professor has made a shortwave radio out of some
> rocks and bamboo strips!" (RIP, Bob Denver)
>
> The worst possible example of this is portrayed in the film 
> "Mosquito Coast", which if you haven't seen it, is based on the
> true story of a man who wants to leave civilization behind, takes
> his family to the eponymous place, builds a refrigeration plant,
> and creates hell on earth. This is rather a technological Heart of
> Darkness.  
>
> The lesson of all of this is, make sure it works, make sure it's
> appropriate and most of all, make sure it's wanted.
>
> I hope my fresnel lenses will find a role in energy production, but 
> this is perhaps a stop-gap.  The real prize is viable, portable energy
> based on cold fusion.  As many on this list have said, it will change
> the world in ways we can't imagine. So get to work, you slackers!
>
> M.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
> The most personalized portal on the Web!
>


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep 25 08:43:57 2005
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Reply-To: <public CraigHaynie.com>
From: "Craig Haynie" <public CraigHaynie.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Fuel Cells
Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 10:42:18 -0500
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I didn't realize that the hydrogen economy is coming at us so quickly. I
became interested in fuel cells yesterday when the noise from all the
generators in the neighborhood, (power was down for 12 hours), drove me
nuts.

Check out these fuel cell batteries:

http://www.fuelcells.org/info/charts/MicroMarket.pdf

A little fuel cell toy car:

http://www.fuelcellstore.com/cgi-bin/fuelweb/view=Item/cat=/product=849

Relatively inexpensive fuel cells for residential use:

http://www.fuelcellstore.com/cgi-bin/fuelweb/view=NavPage/cat=32

Here's a hydrogen production device which operates at 50 watts of power. To
operate it, I can buy a 50 watt solar panel at my neighborhood electronics
store for a much cheaper price than the one they offer with it, here.

http://www.fuelcellstore.com/cgi-bin/fuelweb/view=Item/cat=34/product=227

I originally thought that the electrolyser, shown above, could produce all
the hydrogen necessary for the 1kw fuel cell, show above. It produces 230
cm3/min of hydrogen. As I understand this, this is 13.8 liters of hydrogen
per hour, (230 * 60 / 1000), but this can't be right because it only
requires 50W of power to operate. The 1KW fuel cell consumes 15 liters of
hydrogen per hour to function. So I have a question for all of you. How can
an electrolyser, consuming 50W of power, create 13.8 liters of hydrogen in
an hour, when a fuel cell, consuming 15 liters of hydrogen in an hour,
produce 1KW of power? Where's the error?

Craig Haynie (Houston)


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep 25 11:21:22 2005
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From: Grimer <f.grimer grimer2.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Pulse and the Beta-atmosphere
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A pulse may be viewed as the antithesis of a wave.

Taking a sine wave as the archetypal wave then just as 
the wave can be made up from a hierarchy of different 
rectangular pulses so also the pulse can be made up 
from a hierarchy of sine waves.

Now the pulse has been referred to in a number of 
different claims to OU. Shoulders' EVOs may be taken as 
a typical example. 

I believe this relates to the implicit hierarchical 
nature of the pulse. 

I see the pulse as representing a Jacob's ladder leader 
allowing access from the zero point energy scale to the 
engineering scale. 

One of the first examples of such a progressive energy 
ladder we learn in the nursery.

     ==================================================
          For the want of a nail the shoe was lost, 
         For the want of a shoe the horse was lost, 
        For the want of a horse the rider was lost, 
       For the want of a rider the battle was lost, 
      For the want of a battle the kingdom was lost – 
     And all for the want of a horseshoe nail. 
     --------------------------------------------------
     The earliest known written version of this rhyme 
     is in John Gower's " Confessio Amantis circa 1390.
     ==================================================

In effect one has a chain reaction from small to large. 

But a chain is not the really the right model since it 
suggests something like a line of dominoes where the 
collapse of a single domino collapses another single 
domino, and so on. 

One must think rather of a cascade where the collapse 
of one domino collapses two dominoes which in turn each 
collapse two more dominoes, and so on.

In terms of the Alpha-atmosphere one can visualise a 
small vortex in the middle of the Atlantic which 
triggers a larger vortex which in turn triggers an 
even larger vortex, etc., etc., until we finish up 
with hurricane Wilma wrecking the town of Houston.

Now it is suggested that the Beta-atmosphere is 
essentially no different to the Alpha-atmosphere 
except in scale; and that the same hierarchical 
cascading effects that are manifest and understood 
in principle in the Alpha-atmosphere can also take 
place in the Beta-atmosphere.

It is further suggested that a pulse, such as a 
spark, facilitates a Jacob's ladder organisation of 
the Beta-atmosphere and the consequent manifestation 
of its intrinsic energy on the macro scale.

I believe that attempting to harness zero-point 
energy directly is analogous to trying to harness 
molecular energy directly via a Maxwell's demon. 
To be successful one needs to employ energy jujitsu 
and facilitate the release of the hierarchal 
energies implicit in the Casimir effect for example. 

Devices such as the pulse charging of batteries, 
Paul Rowe's sparking, Shoulders EVOs, Hutchison's 
apparatus and the Hilsch Tube are where that 
harnessing zero-point energy, the pressure energy 
intrinsic to the Beta-atmosphere, are first likely 
to be demonstrated.

Cheers,

Frank Grimer

     ==============================================
     viditque in somnis scalam stantem super terram 
        et cacumen illius tangens caelum angelos 
     quoque Dei ascendentes et descendentes per eam 
     ==============================================


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Vortex Group- A while back it was observed that China was begining
              A space programm. I am willing to bet that China has
              A man or/ men on the moon by 2010- they will probably
               have a colonny by 2018 and or men on mars by 2018. 
                                           ges

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teh problem is, the back bone of the chinese space program is centered
around the conversion of old icbms into space reaching rockets. they boost
at WAY too high a g for human travel. so most of the research has been goin=
g
into satellites. also, a friend of mine pointed out a large amount of
purchases that had been traced to the space prgram on old x ray
crystallography equipment from Cerne. this confused me, until he pointed ou=
t
that a large amount of us satellite tracking on the millitary end isnt done
with radar anymore, but something similar that uses a band closer up to the
xrays, as conventional radar stealthing is useless against it. i wouldnt be
surprised to learn that china is researching the stealth using the info fro=
m
the plane that was downed a while ago (they gutted the comps, but apparentl=
y
it was stealthed against this odd form of radar, and they got the hull
intact. ) and is planing on putting up invisible sattelites.

On 9/25/05, gesrebspar juno.com <gesrebspar@juno.com> wrote:
>
> Vortex Group- A while back it was observed that China was begining
> A space programm. I am willing to bet that China has
> A man or/ men on the moon by 2010- they will probably
> have a colonny by 2018 and or men on mars by 2018.
> ges
>
>


--
"Monsieur l'abb=E9, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to ma=
ke
it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire

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teh problem is, the back bone of the chinese space program is centered arou=
nd the conversion of old icbms into space reaching rockets.&nbsp; they boos=
t at WAY too high a g for human travel.&nbsp; so most of the research has b=
een going into satellites.&nbsp; also, a friend of mine pointed out a large=
 amount of purchases that had been traced to the space prgram on old x ray =
crystallography equipment from Cerne.&nbsp; this confused me, until he poin=
ted out that a large amount of us satellite tracking on the millitary end i=
snt done with radar anymore, but something similar that uses a band closer =
up to the xrays, as conventional radar stealthing is useless against it.&nb=
sp; i wouldnt be surprised to learn that china is researching the stealth u=
sing the info from the plane that was downed a while ago (they gutted the c=
omps, but apparently it was stealthed against this odd form of radar, and t=
hey got the hull intact.&nbsp;) and is planing on putting up invisible satt=
elites.=20
<br><br>
<div><span class=3D"gmail_quote">On 9/25/05, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">=
<a href=3D"mailto:gesrebspar juno.com">gesrebspar@juno.com</a></b> &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:gesrebspar juno.com">gesrebspar@juno.com</a>&gt; wrote:</span=
>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">Vortex Group- A while back it wa=
s observed that China was begining<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; A space programm. I am willing to bet t=
hat China has
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
; A man or/ men on the moon by 2010- they will probably<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;have a =
colonny by 2018 and or men on mars by 2018.<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;g=
es<br><br></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all">
<br>-- <br>&quot;Monsieur l'abb=E9, I detest what you write, but I would gi=
ve my life to make it possible for you to continue to write&quot;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;Voltaire=20

------=_Part_872_17269211.1127678627472--

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Fuel Cells
Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 08:08:56 +1000
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Craig Haynie's message of Sun, 25 Sep 2005 10:42:18
-0500:
Hi,
[snip]
>requires 50W of power to operate. The 1KW fuel cell consumes 15 liters of
>hydrogen per hour to function. 

I believe that's 15 slpm   1 kW (slpm = standard liters per
*minute*). Therefore 60*15 = 900 L/hr. 900/13.8 ~= 65. 65 * 50W =
3250 W. IOW you put in 3250 W and you get out 1000 W. Overall
efficiency ~= 33%.

>So I have a question for all of you. How can
>an electrolyser, consuming 50W of power, create 13.8 liters of hydrogen in
>an hour, when a fuel cell, consuming 15 liters of hydrogen in an hour,
>produce 1KW of power? Where's the error?
>
>Craig Haynie (Houston)
>
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

In a town full of candlestick makers, 
everyone lives in the light,
In a town full of thieves, 
there is only one candle, 
and everyone lives in the night.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep 25 15:27:12 2005
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Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 15:23:43 -0700
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From: Steven Krivit <steven newenergytimes.com>
Subject: NPR show on hot and cold fusion
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Journalist Bruce Gellerman produced a radio show many months ago on fusion. 
He says he covered hot, cold and pebble-bed.

It was supposed to air earlier but got delayed due to other news; Katrina, 
Rita, etc.

Unless it gets bumped again, NPR affiliate stations will run the show at 
various times for the week starting Sat. Oct. 1.

This is all the information that I have, though www.loe.org may post more 
when it gets closer to Oct. 1.


Steven B. Krivit
Editor, New Energy Times
Executive Director, New Energy Institute Inc.
<http://www.newenergytimes.com/>NEW<http://www.newenergytimes.com/> ENERGY 
TIMES
Your best source for cold fusion news and information.

11664 National Blvd. Suite 142
Los Angeles, California, USA 90064
<http://www.newenergytimes.com/>www.newenergytimes.com
Cell phone: (310) 721-5919
Office Phone: (310) 470-8189
Fax: (432) 577-3630

--=====================_1127836218==.ALT
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<html>
<body>
Journalist Bruce Gellerman produced a radio show many months ago on
fusion. He says he covered hot, cold and pebble-bed.<br><br>
It was supposed to air earlier but got delayed due to other news;
Katrina, Rita, etc. <br><br>
Unless it gets bumped again, NPR affiliate stations will run the show at
various times for the week starting Sat. Oct. 1.<br><br>
This is all the information that I have, though
<a href="http://www.loe.org/" eudora="autourl">www.loe.org</a> may post
more when it gets closer to Oct. 1.<br><br>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
Steven B. Krivit<br>
Editor, New Energy Times<br>
Executive Director, New Energy Institute Inc.<br>
<font size=4><b><i><a href="http://www.newenergytimes.com/">NEW</a>
<a href="http://www.newenergytimes.com/"> ENERGY
TIMES</a></i></b></font><font size=5> <br>
</font><b><i>Your best source for cold fusion news and information.
<br><br>
</i></b>11664 National Blvd. Suite 142<br>
Los Angeles, California, USA 90064<br>
<a href="http://www.newenergytimes.com/">www.newenergytimes.com</a><br>
Cell phone: (310) 721-5919<br>
Office Phone: (310) 470-8189<br>
Fax: (432) 577-3630<br>
</body>
</html>

--=====================_1127836218==.ALT--

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Subject: RE: Fuel Cells
Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 17:27:10 -0500
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> I believe that's 15 slpm   1 kW (slpm = standard liters per
> *minute*). Therefore 60*15 = 900 L/hr. 900/13.8 ~= 65. 65 * 50W =
> 3250 W. IOW you put in 3250 W and you get out 1000 W. Overall
> efficiency ~= 33%.

Yep, slip of the brain! I was thinking that the 1kw fuel cell consumed 15
liters per hour, for some reason.

Craig Haynie


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From: "Alex Caliostro" <caliostro1795 hotmail.com>
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>From: "gesrebspar juno.com"

>Vortex Group- A while back it was observed that China was begining
>               A space programm. I am willing to bet that China has
>               A man or/ men on the moon by 2010- they will probably
>                have a colonny by 2018 and or men on mars by 2018.
>                                            ges

are you fred's son

i suppose some noticed the author of the original article was CFs nemesis RP 
which means it was not intended as a troll

fact is that the only reason *we* are going back to the moon is exactly what 
you have posted --  if we don't go soon we will find the chinese there when 
we try

aamof that's the only reason we will return

_________________________________________________________________
On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to 
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>From: Steven Krivit

>Journalist Bruce Gellerman produced a radio show many months ago on fusion. 
>He says he covered hot, cold and pebble-bed.

pebble-bed is fission, not fusion

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BlankGrimer wrote..
>One must think rather of a cascade where the collapse=20
of one domino collapses two dominoes which in turn each=20
collapse two more dominoes, and so on.

>In terms of the Alpha-atmosphere one can visualise a=20
small vortex in the middle of the Atlantic which=20
triggers a larger vortex which in turn triggers an=20
even larger vortex, etc., etc., until we finish up=20
with hurricane Wilma wrecking the town of Houston.


Frank... we dodged the "Rita" category 5 hurricane bullet aimed at =
Houston. It wound up curving into the Sabine pass area between Texas and =
Louisana at 120 mph. Tore the dickens outa the marshland and stirred up =
an angry bunch of alligators and water moccasian snakes. That is French =
"Cajun" country peopled by " web footed" folks that are so tough they =
wear out their clothes from the inside out.

Studying satellite pics of the early stages of hurricane formation offer =
an intriguing revelation. The first  vortices form on land as dust =
devils across the deserts of north Africa and combine with the tropic =
moist laden air of equatorial Africa as they leap and bound westward to =
the Atlantic. Once seaborn, they gather heat and moisture. Wending =
westward across the Atlantic , some form the magic that become =
hurricanes. On a train way back in WW2 I watched a series of dust devils =
marching parallel to the tracks for some miles. Strange that dust devils =
can only amass a little energy ,whereas a tornado or hurricane can amass =
much. Water and heat must play a convincing role in the energy buildup.

Your description of a vortex triggering a larger vortex sems valid =
considering  Rita's eye reformed again and again coming through the =
straits as it approached the coast. Each time with a renewed ferocity.

Watching the televised " eye" of the storm, the station added a pic  =
view of the " eyewall" taken by the hurricane hunter aircraft that fly =
into the center . The wall is amazing. Vertical up to 50,000 feet. Calm =
center with birds flying around, bright clear sunlight. I could =
understand better if the wall were curved or bowed at different =
altitudes.. but straight ??? Whats going on that I am missing?? Even =
iron filings near a magnet follow the field.

Richard



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<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
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<DIV>Grimer wrote..</DIV>
<P>&gt;One must think rather of a cascade where the collapse <BR>of one =
domino=20
collapses two dominoes which in turn each <BR>collapse two more =
dominoes, and so=20
on.<BR><BR>&gt;In terms of the Alpha-atmosphere one can visualise a =
<BR>small=20
vortex in the middle of the Atlantic which <BR>triggers a larger vortex =
which in=20
turn triggers an <BR>even larger vortex, etc., etc., until we finish up =
<BR>with=20
hurricane Wilma wrecking the town of Houston.<BR></P>
<P>Frank... we dodged the "Rita" category 5 hurricane bullet aimed at =
Houston.=20
It wound up curving into the Sabine pass area between Texas and Louisana =
at 120=20
mph. Tore the dickens outa the marshland and stirred up an angry bunch =
of=20
alligators and water moccasian snakes. That is French "Cajun" country =
peopled by=20
" web footed" folks that are so tough they wear out their clothes from =
the=20
inside out.</P>
<P>Studying satellite pics of the early stages of hurricane =
formation&nbsp;offer=20
an intriguing revelation. The first &nbsp;vortices form on land as dust =
devils=20
across the deserts of north Africa and combine with the tropic moist =
laden air=20
of equatorial Africa as they leap and bound westward to the Atlantic. =
Once=20
seaborn, they gather heat and moisture. Wending westward across the =
Atlantic ,=20
some form the magic that become hurricanes. On a train way back in WW2 I =
watched=20
a series of dust devils marching parallel to the tracks for some miles. =
Strange=20
that dust devils can only&nbsp;amass a little energy ,whereas a tornado =
or=20
hurricane can amass much. Water and heat must play a convincing role in =
the=20
energy buildup.</P>
<P>Your description of a vortex triggering a larger vortex&nbsp;sems =
valid=20
considering&nbsp; Rita's eye reformed again and again coming through the =
straits=20
as it approached the coast. Each time with a renewed ferocity.</P>
<P>Watching the televised " eye" of the storm, the station added a pic=20
&nbsp;view of the " eyewall" taken by the hurricane hunter aircraft that =
fly=20
into the center . The wall is amazing. Vertical up to 50,000 feet. Calm =
center=20
with birds flying around, bright clear sunlight. I could understand =
better if=20
the wall were curved or bowed at different altitudes.. but straight ??? =
Whats=20
going on that I am missing?? Even iron filings near a magnet follow the=20
field.</P>
<P>Richard</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep 25 16:52:05 2005
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Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 16:48:46 -0700
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Steven Krivit <steven newenergytimes.com>
Subject: RE: NPR show on hot and cold fusion
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Thank you for the correction.


At 03:38 PM 9/25/2005, you wrote:
>>From: Steven Krivit
>
>>Journalist Bruce Gellerman produced a radio show many months ago on 
>>fusion. He says he covered hot, cold and pebble-bed.
>
>pebble-bed is fission, not fusion
>
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From: "Alex Caliostro" <caliostro1795 hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: RE: NPR show on hot and cold fusion
Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 18:39:34 -0600
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>From: Steven Krivit

>Thank you for the correction.

da nada

pebble-bed reactors can be inherently safe -- kinda makes ya wonder dunnit

"Basic design

The reactor provides heat, which is used to turn a generator. However, there 
are a number of different design choices.

The uranium, thorium or plutonium fuels are in oxides (ceramic form) 
contained within spherical pebbles made of pyrolitic graphite (see 
discussion below).

The pebbles are in a bin or can. An inert gas, helium, nitrogen or carbon 
dioxide, circulates through the spaces between the fuel pebbles to carry 
heat away from the reactor.

Ideally, the heated gas is run directly through a turbine. However, if the 
gas from the primary coolant can be made radioactive by the neutrons in the 
reactor, it may be instead brought to a heat exchanger, where it heats 
another gas, or steam. The exhaust of the turbine is quite warm and may be 
used to warm buildings or chemical plants, or even run another heat engine.

The primary advantage of a pebble bed reactor is that it can be designed to 
be inherently safe. As the reactor gets hotter, the rate of neutron capture 
by U-238 increases, reducing the number of neutrons available to cause 
fission. This places a natural limit on the power produced by the reactor. 
The reactor vessel is designed so that without mechanical aids it loses more 
heat than the reactor can generate in this idle state. The design adapts 
well to safety features (see below). In particular, most of the fuel 
containment resides in the pebbles, and the pebbles are designed so that a 
containment failure releases at most a 0.5 mm sphere of radioactive 
material.

A large advantage of the pebble bed reactor over a conventional light-water 
reactor is that it operates at higher temperatures. The reactor can directly 
heat fluids for low pressure gas turbines. The high temperatures let a 
turbine get more mechanical energy from the same amount of thermal energy; 
therefore, the power system uses less fuel per kilowatt-hour.

A significant technical advantage is that some designs are throttled by 
temperature, not by control rods. The reactor can be simpler because it does 
not need to operate well with the varying neutron profiles caused by 
partially-withdrawn control rods. For maintenance, many designs include 
control rods, called "absorbers" that are inserted through tubes in a 
neutron reflector around the core.

If throttled by temperature, the reactor can change power quickly, just by 
changing the coolant flow rate (this is patented). A coolant-throttled 
design can also change power more efficiently (say, for utility power) by 
changing the coolant density or heat capacity.

Another advantage is that fuel pebbles for different fuels might be used in 
the same basic design of reactor (though perhaps not at the same time). 
Proponents claim that some kinds of pebble-bed reactors should be able to 
use thorium, plutonium and natural unenriched uranium, as well as the 
customary enriched uranium. There is a project in progress to develop 
pebbles and reactors that use the plutonium from surplus or expired nuclear 
explosives."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pebble_bed_reactor

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for those who might think gm aint buddys with big oil

help me to understand why ev1s were forcibly crushed

http://dontcrush.com/

fortunately toyota caved to popular opinion but the (un)fortunate owners of 
rav4evs have problems getting replacement batteries

does chevron *really* own the nimh technology

_____
-alex

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep 25 19:18:12 2005
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Subject: secret of nimh
Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 20:17:04 -0600
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blue pill:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/6305161887/103-9705167-8068640?v=glance

red pill:

http://www.chevron.com/news/press/2002/2002-10-29.asp

para. 4 last line

____
-alex

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep 25 19:42:14 2005
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At 07:17 PM 9/25/2005, you wrote:
>blue pill:
>
>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/6305161887/103-9705167-8068640?v=glance
>
>red pill:
>
>http://www.chevron.com/news/press/2002/2002-10-29.asp
>
>para. 4 last line

Alex,

Which says, "We have the basic patents in nickel metal hydride battery 
technology."

Which means what to you?


Steve 

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In reply to  RC Macaulay's message of Sun, 25 Sep 2005 17:47:48
-0500:
Hi,
[snip]
>miles. Strange that dust devils can only amass a little energy ,whereas a tornado or hurricane can amass much. Water and heat must play a convincing role in the energy buildup.

Yes. Water contributes two components. Heat and water vapor. The
latter is lighter than air. Where the heat is concerned, once the
surface layer of the water has yielded it's heat up to
evaporation, it becomes denser and sinks to the bottom, being
replaced by a fresh layer of warm water, which provides fresh heat
and vapor. This replacement mechanism doesn't function over dry
land, which is why hurricanes grow over the ocean, and die out
over land.
[snip]
>Watching the televised " eye" of the storm, the station added a pic  view of the " eyewall" taken by the hurricane hunter aircraft that fly into the center . The wall is amazing. Vertical up to 50,000 feet. Calm center with birds flying around, bright clear sunlight. I could understand better if the wall were curved or bowed at different altitudes.. but straight ??? Whats going on that I am missing?? Even iron filings near a magnet follow the field.
[snip]
Not exactly straight, just extremely steep. Because it goes as
1/(r^2), noticeable flattening doesn't happen until near the top.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

In a town full of candlestick makers, 
everyone lives in the light,
In a town full of thieves, 
there is only one candle, 
and everyone lives in the night.

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that we are all just rats working for them, coming up with derivatives that
will be snapped up and added on as developments on the patent.

On 9/25/05, Steven Krivit <steven newenergytimes.com> wrote:
>
> At 07:17 PM 9/25/2005, you wrote:
> >blue pill:
> >
> >
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/6305161887/103-9705167-8068=
640?v=3Dglance
> >
> >red pill:
> >
> >http://www.chevron.com/news/press/2002/2002-10-29.asp
> >
> >para. 4 last line
>
> Alex,
>
> Which says, "We have the basic patents in nickel metal hydride battery
> technology."
>
> Which means what to you?
>
>
> Steve
>
>


--
"Monsieur l'abb=E9, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to ma=
ke
it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire

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that we are all just rats working for them, coming up with derivatives that=
 will be snapped up and added on as developments on the patent.<br><br>
<div><span class=3D"gmail_quote">On 9/25/05, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">=
Steven Krivit</b> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:steven newenergytimes.com">steven@n=
ewenergytimes.com</a>&gt; wrote:</span>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">At 07:17 PM 9/25/2005, you wrote=
:<br>&gt;blue pill:<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<a href=3D"http://www.amazon.com/exec/ob=
idos/tg/detail/-/6305161887/103-9705167-8068640?v=3Dglance">
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/6305161887/103-9705167-806864=
0?v=3Dglance</a><br>&gt;<br>&gt;red pill:<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<a href=3D"http://=
www.chevron.com/news/press/2002/2002-10-29.asp">http://www.chevron.com/news=
/press/2002/2002-10-29.asp
</a><br>&gt;<br>&gt;para. 4 last line<br><br>Alex,<br><br>Which says, &quot=
;We have the basic patents in nickel metal hydride battery<br>technology.&q=
uot;<br><br>Which means what to you?<br><br><br>Steve<br><br></blockquote>
</div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br>&quot;Monsieur l'abb=E9, I detest wh=
at you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to conti=
nue to write&quot;&nbsp;&nbsp;Voltaire=20

------=_Part_1628_1261931.1127706069663--

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Subject: New paper on line
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Mostly similar to the ICENES paper.

Differences: Abstract, Section 7, Conclusion

http://newenergytimes.com/Library/2005KrivitS-WhatReallyHappened-Paper.pdf

s 

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--=====================_1148512781==.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

Uggh. Got it.  May I offer you some poetry to go along with that, courtesy 
of the Smashing Pumpkins?

"Despite all my rage I am still just a rat in a cage"


Okay Alex, I'll take the blue pill

http://newenergytimes.com/students/index.htm

Steve  
--=====================_1148512781==.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
<body>
Uggh. Got it.&nbsp; May I offer you some poetry to go along with that,
courtesy of the Smashing Pumpkins?<br><br>
<font face="Verdana" size=2>&quot;Despite all my rage I am still just a
rat in a cage&quot;<br><br>
<br>
</font>Okay Alex, I'll take the blue pill<br><br>
<a href="http://newenergytimes.com/students/index.htm" eudora="autourl">
http://newenergytimes.com/students/index.htm<br><br>
</a>Steve </body>
</html>

--=====================_1148512781==.ALT--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep 25 23:39:24 2005
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Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 07:38:32 +0100
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Grimer <f.grimer grimer2.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Tesla longitudinal waves and the Beta-atmosphere 
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Subsequent to my previous post I searched around for articles 
on the Hutchison Effect and I found this rather articulate 
account by Ing.Saviour.

   ============================================================
   The Hutchison Effect is a collection of phenomena which 
   were discovered accidentally by John Hutchison during 
   attempts to study the longitudinal waves of Tesla back 
   in 1979. The Hutchison Effect occurs as the result of 
   radio wave interferences in a 3 dimensional zone space 
   volume radiated by two or more high voltage sources, 
   usually a Van de Graff generator, and two or more Tesla 
   coils. The results are levitation of heavy objects, 
   fusion of dissimilar materials such as metal and wood 
   (as shown in the upper right corner of the photo), the 
   anomalous melting (without heating) of metals without 
   burning adjacent material, spontaneous fracturing of 
   metals (which separate by sliding in a sideways fashion), 
   and both temporary and permanent changes in the crystalline 
   structure and physical properties of metals as shown above. 

   The fusion of dissimilar materials, which is exceedingly 
   remarkable, indicates clearly that the Hutchison Effect 
   has a powerful influence on intermolecular forces. Dissimilar 
   substances such as steel and copper or wood can simply 
   "come together," yet the individual substances do not 
   dissociate. A block of wood can simply "sink into" a metal 
   bar, yet neither the metal bar nor the block of wood come 
   apart or carbonise. On the lower left corner of the photo, 
   you may see the imprint left over by coins which were 
   sitting on top of the steel bar during the effect. 

   The anomalous melting of metal without any evidence of 
   heating, burning or scorching of the adjacent materials 
   (usually wood) can be easily explained if one considers 
   the external high voltage intermediate frequency source 
   to be resonant with the molecular structure of the metal. 
   In such a case, resonance will efficiently use up the 
   external energy to change the metal structure, to the 
   next higher energy level structure which is the liquid 
   state. Thus the metal structure will take over liquid 
   properties, and any foreign solid material, such as wood 
   or different metal, will 'sink' into it. Once the oscillation 
   is switched off, the foreign material will be permanently 
   trapped within the solid structure. The radio wave 
   interferences involved in producing these effects are 
   produced from at least two radio sources, with the correct 
   frequency difference, both operating at low power. 
   However, the zone in which the interferences take place 
   is stressed by hundreds of kilovolts oscillating at the 
   intermediate resonant frequency. 
   ============================================================

Now the key string is "the longitudinal waves of Tesla". It must be 
these longitudinal waves which govern the Beta-atmosphere pressure 
which holds materials together from the outside. Everyone is 
familiar with EM transverse waves. The longitudinal waves seem to 
be less well known. Indeed, I am not sure their existence is even 
acknowledged other than by Tesla enthusiasts and the like.  8-)

Ing.Saviour's explanation is ingenious but I would put it somewhat 
differently. As shown in.... 

CLAYTON, N and F.J.GRIMER. A General Approach to the Strength of 
Materials. Speculations in Science and Technology, Vol.1, No.1, 
pp5-13, 1978.

....all materials may be partitioned into two phases, one in 
relative tension, the quasi FLUID phase, the other in relative 
balancing compression, the quasi-SOLID phase. In terms of absolute 
Beta-atmosphere pressure the SOLID phase is held together by the 
difference in Beta-atmosphere pressure between the environmental
space outside of the material and the FLUID space inside.

A simple Alpha-atmosphere analogy will aid comprehension.

Take a large plastic bag full of tennis balls. Reducing the 
air pressure within the bag to 4 psi will form the ensemble 
into a material with the SOLID phase, the tennis balls, under 
a relative compressive stress of +11 psi and the FLUID phase 
the air between the tennis balls, under a relative tensile 
stress of -11 psi. Obviously, the absolute Alpha-atmosphere 
stresses on the two phases are 15 psi on the SOLID phase 
and 4 psi on the FLUID phase. 

Now there are two primary ways the "material" can be "melted", 
i.e. the differential compression-tension prestress which holds
the material together can be eliminated.

1. The pressure on the FLUID phase inside the bag can be 
increased from 4 psi to 15 psi, by heating the air for example

2. The pressure on the SOLID phase can be reduced from 15 psi 
to 4 psi by reducing the external Alpha-atmospheric pressure 
from 15 psi to 4 psi.

There are also secondary ways in which the "material" can be 
"melted". Both pressures can be increased with the FLUID 
pressure being increased 11 psi more than the SOLID pressure. 
An experiment in which concrete was failed ("melted") in this 
manner is described in 

CLAYTON, N and F.J.GRIMER. The di-phase concept with 
particular reference to concrete. Developments in Concrete 
Technology, Vol.1, F.D.Lydon, ed, Applied Science Publishers, 
England pp.283-318. 

The other secondary way is to reduce both pressures with the 
SOLID pressure being reduced 11 psi more than the FLUID pressure.

Now the Hutchison effect shows melting without heating so 
presumably it is a case of reduction in the external 
Beta-atmosphere pressure mediated by a large ring vortex 
generated by the Tesla coils. This inferred reduction in 
Beta-atmosphere pressure has been described before in the 
"Beta-atmosphere and the Cavity Magnetron" thread.

Seeing is believing so it would be terrific if a way was 
found to show up these ring vortices by electromagnetic 
"smoke"; some kind of suitable chaff as used in world 
war 2. Interestingly enough the bremsstrahlung radiation 
of sonoluminescence suggests that one is actually viewing 
pico electron vortices.   

It is a terrible shame that Hutchison went about his 
research in such a disorganised fashion. As a consequence 
the research is probably as difficult to repeat as many a 
Cold Fusion experiment. If the appalling neglect of 
experimental evidence on the velocity of light (reported 
in the article recently referred to by Jed) is anything 
to go by, then even if people actually witnessed the 
Hutchison effects with their own eyes they would be unable 
to integrate it into their world view for want of any 
acceptable explanation.

Cheers,

Frank Grimer

     ================================
     at vero Melchisedech rex Salem 
        proferens panem et vinum 
     erat enim sacerdos Dei altissimi 
     ================================



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Nick Palmer wrote:

Fri, 23 Sep 2005 03:26:44 -0700

>> as a past area coordinator for the Friends of the Earth environmental
group, 

>> I have been calling global warming deniers... 
>> ... morons and insane for quite a while now. 

You don't mind my asking but are you an engineer or scientist? What have you
done and have you done any research?

It's just that your language is strong and I'm just wondering if you've
**paid your dues** by #1 getting a professional qualification, #2 joining a
professional body, #3 serving in such a role, #4 have contributed to the
body of science knowledge yourself?

You see then the strong language would be ok. I'm not patronising you, just
finding out.


.......................................
Website
http://luna.bton.ac.uk/~roc1
.......................................

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From: "John Steck" <johnsteck tetrahelix.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: It ain't fittin, not fittin, it just ain't fittin
Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 09:55:29 -0500
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The  <http://www.genesis-scientific.org/energy_apps.htm>
http://www.genesis-scientific.org/energy_apps.htm thing is more in line =
with
the direction I am going down (unfortunately it looks to be only in the =
very
beginning stages of commercial development).  60-70kWh per day is the
targeted system size.
=20
Wandering into this project about as green as they come (pardon the =
pun). I
started my research with this as a system baseline:
http://www.realgoods.com/renew/shop/product.cfm/dp/1800/sd/1804/ts/201223=
9
=20
At the very least I think I can start with one of these
http://www.dakacorp.com/furnaces_prod.cfm as a heat source platform =
($720
for the unit at Menards, maybe another $2-300 to pipe it into the =
ductworks
and water heater) and responsibly feed it =
http://logjamforestproducts.com/
($4.50/box).  That immediately supplements/replaces my natural gas
dependence for space and water heating.  Next step would be to construct =
a
windmill-type low speed dynamo http://www.otherpower.com/pmg2.html
<http://www.otherpower.com/otherpower_wind_alternators.html>  and belt =
drive
it with a Stirling two cylinder http://www.keveney.com/Vstirling.html.
=20
This approach should create a non-exotic, viable, discrete platform on =
which
alternate power generation and heat source sub-systems can be developed =
and
tested.  Best of all it leaves my traditional grid components in place =
as
backup. =20
=20
-john
=20
=20
 -----Original Message-----
From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9 pacbell.net]=20
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2005 1:25 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: It ain't fittin, not fittin, it just ain't fittin


oops hit the wrong key
=20
=20
here is the SPAD picture site:
http://easy.spad.free.fr/0010.htm
=20
=20

----- Original Message -----=20
From: Jones Beene <mailto:jonesb9 pacbell.net> =20
To: vortex-l eskimo.com=20
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2005 11:20 AM
Subject: Re: It ain't fittin, not fittin, it just ain't fittin

=20
Here are the better pictures.=20
=20
It is a 200 kw turbo diesel retrofit for Egypt -  caterpillar 6 =
cylindres
turbo D343-62B=20
=20
The only problem is there are no test figures. All very new and open =
source.
The welded box is the reformer.
=20
Where is John Steck?  - he has probably looked into this already on the
samleer scale.
=20
Jones
=20
=20
check out the cartoon at
http://easy.spad.free.fr/index.htm


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<BODY id=3DridBody bgColor=3D#ffffff =
background=3Dcid:154323513 26092005-1AC6><SPAN=20
class=3D154323513-26092005></SPAN>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D154323513-26092005>The <A=20
href=3D"http://www.genesis-scientific.org/energy_apps.htm"><U><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>http://www.genesis-scientific.org/energy_apps.htm</U></FONT></A>=
&nbsp;thing=20
is more in line with the direction I am going down (unfortunately it =
looks to be=20
only in the very beginning stages of commercial development).&nbsp; =
60-70kWh per=20
day is the targeted system size.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D154323513-26092005></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D154323513-26092005>Wandering into this project about =
as green=20
as they come (pardon the pun). I started my research with this as a =
system=20
baseline: <A=20
href=3D"http://www.realgoods.com/renew/shop/product.cfm/dp/1800/sd/1804/t=
s/2012239">http://www.realgoods.com/renew/shop/product.cfm/dp/1800/sd/180=
4/ts/2012239</A></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D154323513-26092005></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D154323513-26092005>At the very least I think I can =
start=20
with&nbsp;one of these&nbsp;<A=20
href=3D"http://www.dakacorp.com/furnaces_prod.cfm">http://www.dakacorp.co=
m/furnaces_prod.cfm</A>&nbsp;as=20
a heat source platform ($720 for the unit at Menards, maybe another =
$2-300 to=20
pipe it into the ductworks and water heater) and responsibly feed it <A=20
href=3D"http://logjamforestproducts.com/">http://logjamforestproducts.com=
/</A>&nbsp;($4.50/box).&nbsp;=20
That immediately supplements/replaces my natural gas dependence for =
space and=20
water heating.&nbsp; Next step would be to construct a windmill-type low =
speed=20
dynamo <A=20
href=3D"http://www.otherpower.com/pmg2.html">http://www.otherpower.com/pm=
g2.html</A><A=20
href=3D"http://www.otherpower.com/otherpower_wind_alternators.html"></A>&=
nbsp;and=20
belt drive it with a Stirling two cylinder <A=20
href=3D"http://www.keveney.com/Vstirling.html">http://www.keveney.com/Vst=
irling.html</A>.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D154323513-26092005></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D154323513-26092005>This approach should create a =
non-exotic,=20
viable,&nbsp;discrete&nbsp;platform on which&nbsp;alternate power =
generation and=20
heat source sub-systems can be developed and tested.</SPAN><SPAN=20
class=3D154323513-26092005>&nbsp; Best of all it leaves my traditional =
grid=20
components in place as backup.&nbsp; </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D154323513-26092005></SPAN><SPAN=20
class=3D154323513-26092005></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D154323513-26092005>-john</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D154323513-26092005></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D154323513-26092005><FONT =
face=3DArial>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D154323513-26092005>&nbsp;</SPAN>-----Original=20
Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9 pacbell.net]=20
<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, September 20, 2005 1:25 PM<BR><B>To:</B>=20
vortex-l eskimo.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: It ain't fittin, not fittin, =
it just=20
ain't fittin<BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV>oops hit the wrong key</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>here is the SPAD picture site:</DIV>
<DIV><A=20
href=3D"http://easy.spad.free.fr/0010.htm">http://easy.spad.free.fr/0010.=
htm</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3Djonesb9 pacbell.net =
href=3D"mailto:jonesb9 pacbell.net">Jones Beene</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dvortex-l eskimo.com=20
  href=3D"mailto:vortex-l eskimo.com">vortex-l@eskimo.com</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, September 20, =
2005 11:20=20
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: It ain't fittin, =
not fittin,=20
  it just ain't fittin</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Here are the better pictures. </DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>It is a 200 kw turbo diesel retrofit for Egypt =
-&nbsp;<!--StartFragment --> caterpillar 6 cylindres turbo D343-62B =
</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>The only problem is there are no test figures. All very new and =
open=20
  source. The welded box is the reformer.</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Where is John Steck? &nbsp;- he has probably looked into this =
already on=20
  the samleer scale.</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Jones</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>check out the cartoon at</DIV>
  <DIV><A=20
  =
href=3D"http://easy.spad.free.fr/index.htm">http://easy.spad.free.fr/inde=
x.htm</A></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From: "RC Macaulay" <walhalla cvtv.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Tesla longitudinal waves and the Beta-atmosphere
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BlankGrimer wrote..
>The longitudinal waves seem to be less well known. Indeed, I am not =
sure their existence is even=20
acknowledged other than by Tesla enthusiasts and the like.  8-)


Technology has blind spots.



>Seeing is believing so it would be terrific if a way was=20
found to show up these ring vortices by electromagnetic=20
"smoke"; some kind of suitable chaff as used in world=20
war 2. Interestingly enough the bremsstrahlung radiation=20
of sonoluminescence suggests that one is actually viewing=20
pico electron vortices.=20



A tiny vortex appear when a SL bubble collapses into itself =20



>It is a terrible shame that Hutchison went about his=20
research in such a disorganised fashion. As a consequence=20
the research is probably as difficult to repeat as many a=20
Cold Fusion experiment. If the appalling neglect of=20
experimental evidence on the velocity of light (reported=20
in the article recently referred to by Jed) is anything=20
to go by, then even if people actually witnessed the=20
Hutchison effects with their own eyes they would be unable=20
to integrate it into their world view for want of any=20
acceptable explanation.


The 60 mile diameter "eye" of hurricane Rita and the vertical eyewall =
should be sufficent witness. One only needs to ask oneself what they =
were witnessing if not the " cavity" held together by external forces. A =
prime example of true centripetal force.

Richard


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<BODY id=3DridBody bgColor=3D#ffffff=20
background=3Dcid:000d01c5c2aa$c9265a90$39027841 xptower>
<DIV>Grimer wrote..</DIV>
<P>&gt;The longitudinal waves seem to be less well known. Indeed, I am =
not sure=20
their existence is even <BR>acknowledged other than by Tesla enthusiasts =
and the=20
like.&nbsp; 8-)<BR></P>
<P>Technology has blind spots.</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>&gt;Seeing is believing so it would be terrific if a way was =
<BR>found to=20
show up these ring vortices by electromagnetic <BR>"smoke"; some kind of =

suitable chaff as used in world <BR>war 2. Interestingly enough the=20
bremsstrahlung radiation <BR>of sonoluminescence suggests that one is =
actually=20
viewing <BR>pico electron vortices.&nbsp;</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>A tiny vortex appear when a SL bubble collapses into itself&nbsp; =
</P>
<P><BR><BR>&gt;It is a terrible shame that Hutchison went about his =
<BR>research=20
in such a disorganised fashion. As a consequence <BR>the research is =
probably as=20
difficult to repeat as many a <BR>Cold Fusion experiment. If the =
appalling=20
neglect of <BR>experimental evidence on the velocity of light (reported =
<BR>in=20
the article recently referred to by Jed) is anything <BR>to go by, then =
even if=20
people actually witnessed the <BR>Hutchison effects with their own eyes =
they=20
would be unable <BR>to integrate it into their world view for want of =
any=20
<BR>acceptable explanation.<BR></P>
<P>The 60 mile diameter "eye" of hurricane Rita and the vertical eyewall =
should=20
be sufficent witness. One only needs to ask oneself what they were =
witnessing if=20
not the " cavity" held together by external forces. A prime example of =
true=20
centripetal force.</P>
<P>Richard<BR></P></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 26 08:50:48 2005
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Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 11:49:39 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: It ain't fittin, not fittin, it just ain't fittin
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John Steck wrote:

>Wandering into this project about as green as they come (pardon the pun). 
>I started my research with this as a system baseline: 
>http://www.realgoods.com/renew/shop/product.cfm/dp/1800/sd/1804/ts/2012239

Whoa! $8,900 for 2.3 kWh/day?!? That's 100 watts average power (over 24 
hours), or $89,000 per kilowatt of generator capacity. That's insane. Is 
that correct?

This web site claims the cost is $4 per watt-hour, which would also be 
insane . . . Do they mean per watt of capacity?

http://www.solareco.com/articles/article.cfm/id/29

I believe the Japanese PV program makes more sense. The industry has 
lowered the cost considerably, much of Japan has bright sunlight for most 
of the year, and electricity in Japan is much more expensive to start with. 
They claim the cost is now 500 yen per watt of capacity ($4.50). See:

http://www.southeastgreenpower.net/2005/presentations/ChrisOBrien.pdf

By the way, p. 12 of this document shows Fresnel lenses being used with PV, 
with "record high conversion efficiency."

Comparing this to other energy sources is a can of worms because solar is 
only available for about a third of the day, but on the other hand it 
always shows up just when you need it most, for air-conditioning. Wind 
turbines are intermittent and they may produce peak power in the middle of 
the night when you do not need electricity.

This site makes dubious claims about longevity: "PV modules last a long, 
long time. How long we honestly don't yet know, as the oldest terrestrial 
modules are barely 30 years old, and still going strong. In decades-long 
tests the fully-developed technology of single- and poly-crystal modules 
has shown to degrade at fairly steady rates of 0.5% to 1% per year." NREL 
and industry sources I have read say that after 20 years most PV modules 
degrade so much they produce between one-third of the original output to 
nothing, and they are not worth maintaining.

All in all, while I love the idea of PV electricity, I think spending 
$8,900 for this is crazy. You would save more energy investing that kind of 
money in insulation and improved lighting and appliances.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 26 09:40:04 2005
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From: "Nick Palmer" <nickp wynterwood.co.uk>
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Subject: Re: Off topic - US climate loonies
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Remi Cornwall wrote:-
<<You don't mind my asking but are you an engineer or scientist? What have 
you
done and have you done any research?>>

Oh, Remi you really have pushed my buttons now! I recognise the gentlemanly 
tone of your request (you're a fellow Brit right?) but really...! Perhaps 
you did not see that it was an undoubtedly highly qualified scientist from 
the Royal Commission on Environmental Pollution who came out with the "US 
climate loonies" remarks. Sorry Remi, I think your attitude is part of the 
problem. Did you never hear that "you don't need a weatherman to know which 
way the wind blows"?
           I have to extrapolate your views from your email, but, rest 
assured, in around 33 years of being an environmentalist (before there were 
any courses at colleges) I have encountered what appears to be your argument 
many, many times. It is at heart a patronising one (despite your denial) 
inasmuch it implies that you think your point of view and values outrank the 
"non-qualified" in this subject.You are so totally wrong in your apparent 
view that only people with qualifications as scientists or engineers are 
qualified to talk about this particular matter and be believed. In fact, it 
is the very heart of scientific philosophy that renders those who live and 
decide issues by this code DISQUALIFIED from having any validity if they 
think that it is a good method for making strategic policy decisions in this 
area. It is their duty not to comment as science is a post-dictive subject. 
Scientific predictions are only hypotheses and cannot be relied upon. As I 
have explained so often to people like you, the whole danger of your 
viewpoint is that one cannot conclusively prove that global warming is 
happening/will happen without running the experiment i.e. letting us 
continue to alter the global atmosphere and seeing what the ultimate result 
is. The consequences of doing so CANNOT be predicted accurately - they may 
resemble the results of computer modelling but then again, such models may, 
in due course, prove to be totally inadequate as predictive tools. I can say 
this as an absolute fact beyond the necessity of proof - it should be self 
evident to a truly intelligent person and not just a highly trained one. If 
some computer speculation suggests that the results may be catastrophic 
while others say things will be fine, marginal or could be coped with, then 
raw intelligence dictates that, as we are dealing with a global  part of the 
only life support system that we have, not only for humanity but all the 
countless millions of other lifeforms we share the Planet with (upon many of 
which we also depend), chances cannot be taken that the results will be 
neutral, favourable or "acceptable". If there is even a small chance that 
things could be well and truly screwed up, such a chance must not be taken. 
It merely requires true intelligence to see this point. One cannot take the 
chance that new technology will arrive, like the US cavalry on the brow of 
the hill in the nick of time (but as you may know I have been following cold 
fusion since the beginning, as it could be a great solution). It is the 
scientists, engineers, politicians, business men etc who do not understand 
this simple logic who are the problem. That is why I characterise those who 
do not understand this logic as morons or insane or both. Perhaps I should 
qualify that by saying instead "functionally moronic" or "functionally 
insane". It certainly is the case that many of the stupidest, most dangerous 
beliefs and opinions around come from those who feel secure that society has 
awarded them a certificate (like the strawman in the Wizard of Oz who wanted 
a brain). Robert Park continues to spout his opinions on cold fusion etc 
which he undoubtedly feels superior enough to the common herd to do. He used 
to have a bit at the bottom of his ""What's New" that said something like 
"the opinions expressed here are the authors alone and not those of the 
American Physical society (but they should be)". The root cause of the 
problem is vanity - vanity of those qualified or experienced in one field 
who come to believe that their "special quality" gives their viewpoint and 
those of their similar peers, on matters outside their area, more gravitas 
than they deserve. If a Professor comes out with a stupid, dangerous 
assertion and out of the mouth of a babe and suckling comes intelligent 
sense, who do you listen too?

Nick Palmer
Ex area coordinator for Jersey, Channel Islands, Friends of the Earth. Ex 
recycling and climate change campaigner. 


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 26 09:40:31 2005
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From: "RC Macaulay" <walhalla cvtv.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: another windmill design
Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 11:39:20 -0500
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BlankLink to a vertical barrel type mill.
http://www.windside.com/index.html


Richard

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<P>Richard</P></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 26 09:57:45 2005
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Subject: Are Charge Clusters the Answer to Free Energy?
Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 11:56:29 -0500
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I recently came across :

www.padrak.com/ine/FB97_1.html

It's an article called "High density Charge Clusters and Energy
Conversion Results"

It argues that electron charge clusters - together with associated
positive ions - are powerful enough to breech the Coulomb barrier and
produce nuclear reactions.

If this is true, it would explain an enormous amount of anomalous
observations across many years,  such as claims of transmutation in high
amp discharges,
and a great deal of cold fusion claims.

Could this be true?  If so,  it opens a convenient route to manipulate
the energies of a nucleus using inexpensive equipment, such as Naudin's
"VSG"
Experiments.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 26 10:14:22 2005
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From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk
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Subject: RE: Off topic - US climate loonies
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Nick,

No, there may be climate change natural or man-assisted. What I object to is
non-scientists carrying on like they know the scientific method. To be
correct, global warming is a hypothesis.

 

>From my website (below), read and understand why emotion (feelings) and
politics is absolutely irrelevant in science. You are turning science into
politics whereas we search for the truth. In short, one has to know what one
is going on about.

 

Try to understand we don't say something *is so* until we know *it is so*.
This makes a difference between gospel or suggestion. 

 

Remi.

 

Global Warming is a Hypothesis. Some very good people say it is conjecture
(Fred Singer
<http://www.insightmag.com/media/paper441/news/2004/04/27/features/picture.p
rofilesinger.cool.on.global.warming-658764.shtml> ).  

Yes, despite all the ranting and consensus science it has to consider
exhaustively other explanations and it has to make accurate predictions!
Apparently this hurricane season is no worse than on record; the 1930s and
40s <http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=4391>  were particularly bad.
Global Warming is worse than the so called 'dismal science' economics; just
how is it possible to isolate and test hypothesis in the manner of
Reductionism <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductionism> ? Don't trust
computer models either, non-linear dynamical systems are prone to Chaos
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory>  and the input data would need
to be precise and extensive to assist convergence otherwise it's "Garbage
In, Garbage Out (GIGO)" - just how good is the weather forecast? One week if
you're lucky.

If you don't want to condemn the World to a recession by a hypothesis, find
more oil and build more nuclear power stations. They are the only mature
technologies capable of sustaining our lifestyle (try affecting disaster
relief with a 3rd World economy and then look at the air lift in New
Orleans). No, Global Warming is properly a Proto-science
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protoscience>  and the best we could do with
it is to heed it's suggestions by investing more in alternative energy -
instead of problems start looking for solutions. "Global Warming" is the
scientific method and science policy gone mad.

 

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On
Behalf Of Nick Palmer
Sent: 26 September 2005 17:36
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Off topic - US climate loonies

 

Remi Cornwall wrote:-

<<You don't mind my asking but are you an engineer or scientist? What have 

you

done and have you done any research?>>

 

Oh, Remi you really have pushed my buttons now! I recognise the gentlemanly 

tone of your request (you're a fellow Brit right?) but really...! Perhaps 

you did not see that it was an undoubtedly highly qualified scientist from 

the Royal Commission on Environmental Pollution who came out with the "US 

climate loonies" remarks. Sorry Remi, I think your attitude is part of the 

problem. Did you never hear that "you don't need a weatherman to know which 

way the wind blows"?

           I have to extrapolate your views from your email, but, rest 

assured, in around 33 years of being an environmentalist (before there were 

any courses at colleges) I have encountered what appears to be your argument


many, many times. It is at heart a patronising one (despite your denial) 

inasmuch it implies that you think your point of view and values outrank the


"non-qualified" in this subject.You are so totally wrong in your apparent 

view that only people with qualifications as scientists or engineers are 

qualified to talk about this particular matter and be believed. In fact, it 

is the very heart of scientific philosophy that renders those who live and 

decide issues by this code DISQUALIFIED from having any validity if they 

think that it is a good method for making strategic policy decisions in this


area. It is their duty not to comment as science is a post-dictive subject. 

Scientific predictions are only hypotheses and cannot be relied upon. As I 

have explained so often to people like you, the whole danger of your 

viewpoint is that one cannot conclusively prove that global warming is 

happening/will happen without running the experiment i.e. letting us 

continue to alter the global atmosphere and seeing what the ultimate result 

is. The consequences of doing so CANNOT be predicted accurately - they may 

resemble the results of computer modelling but then again, such models may, 

in due course, prove to be totally inadequate as predictive tools. I can say


this as an absolute fact beyond the necessity of proof - it should be self 

evident to a truly intelligent person and not just a highly trained one. If 

some computer speculation suggests that the results may be catastrophic 

while others say things will be fine, marginal or could be coped with, then 

raw intelligence dictates that, as we are dealing with a global  part of the


only life support system that we have, not only for humanity but all the 

countless millions of other lifeforms we share the Planet with (upon many of


which we also depend), chances cannot be taken that the results will be 

neutral, favourable or "acceptable". If there is even a small chance that 

things could be well and truly screwed up, such a chance must not be taken. 

It merely requires true intelligence to see this point. One cannot take the 

chance that new technology will arrive, like the US cavalry on the brow of 

the hill in the nick of time (but as you may know I have been following cold


fusion since the beginning, as it could be a great solution). It is the 

scientists, engineers, politicians, business men etc who do not understand 

this simple logic who are the problem. That is why I characterise those who 

do not understand this logic as morons or insane or both. Perhaps I should 

qualify that by saying instead "functionally moronic" or "functionally 

insane". It certainly is the case that many of the stupidest, most dangerous


beliefs and opinions around come from those who feel secure that society has


awarded them a certificate (like the strawman in the Wizard of Oz who wanted


a brain). Robert Park continues to spout his opinions on cold fusion etc 

which he undoubtedly feels superior enough to the common herd to do. He used


to have a bit at the bottom of his ""What's New" that said something like 

"the opinions expressed here are the authors alone and not those of the 

American Physical society (but they should be)". The root cause of the 

problem is vanity - vanity of those qualified or experienced in one field 

who come to believe that their "special quality" gives their viewpoint and 

those of their similar peers, on matters outside their area, more gravitas 

than they deserve. If a Professor comes out with a stupid, dangerous 

assertion and out of the mouth of a babe and suckling comes intelligent 

sense, who do you listen too?

 

Nick Palmer

Ex area coordinator for Jersey, Channel Islands, Friends of the Earth. Ex 

recycling and climate change campaigner. 

 


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<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
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<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>No, there may be climate change natural or man-assisted. What I =
object
to is non-scientists carrying on like they know the scientific method. =
To be
correct, global warming is a =
<u>hypothesis</u>.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>From my website (below), read and understand why emotion =
(feelings) and
politics is absolutely irrelevant in science. You are turning science =
into politics
whereas we search for the truth. In short, one has to know what one is =
going on
about.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>Try to understand we don&#8217;t say something *<b><span
style=3D'font-weight:bold'>is so</span></b>* until we know *<b><span
style=3D'font-weight:bold'>it is so</span></b>*. This makes a =
difference between
gospel or suggestion. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>Remi.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Global Warming is a Hypothesis. Some very good people say it is
conjecture (<a
href=3D"http://www.insightmag.com/media/paper441/news/2004/04/27/feature=
s/picture.profilesinger.cool.on.global.warming-658764.shtml"
target=3D"_blank">Fred Singer</a>).&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Yes,
despite all the ranting and consensus science it has to consider =
exhaustively
other explanations and it has to make accurate predictions! Apparently =
this
hurricane season is no worse than on record; the <a
href=3D"http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=3D4391" =
target=3D"_blank">1930s and 40s</a>
were particularly bad. Global Warming is worse than the so called =
'dismal
science' economics; just how is it possible to isolate and test =
hypothesis in
the manner of <a href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductionism"
target=3D"_blank">Reductionism</a>? Don't trust computer models either,
non-linear dynamical systems are prone to <a
href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory" =
target=3D"_blank">Chaos</a> and
the input data would need to be precise and extensive to assist =
convergence
otherwise it's &quot;Garbage In, Garbage Out (GIGO)&quot; - just how =
good is
the weather forecast? One week if you're =
lucky.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>If you
don't want to condemn the World to a recession by a <b><i><span
style=3D'font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>hypothesis</span></i></b>, =
find more
oil and build more nuclear power stations. They are the only mature
technologies capable of sustaining our lifestyle (try affecting =
disaster relief
with a 3rd World economy and then look at the air lift in <st1:City =
w:st=3D"on"><st1:place
 w:st=3D"on">New Orleans</st1:place></st1:City>). No, Global Warming is =
properly
a <a href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protoscience" =
target=3D"_blank">Proto-science</a>
and the best we could do with it is to heed it's <b><i><span =
style=3D'font-weight:
bold;font-style:italic'>suggestions</span></i></b> by investing more in
alternative energy - instead of problems start looking for solutions.
&quot;Global Warming&quot; is the scientific method and science policy =
gone mad.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>-----Original Message-----<br>
From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] =
On
Behalf Of Nick Palmer<br>
Sent: 26 September 2005 17:36<br>
To: <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">vortex-l eskimo.com</st1:PersonName><br>
Subject: Re: Off topic - US climate loonies</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>Remi Cornwall wrote:-<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>&lt;&lt;You don't mind my asking but are you an engineer or =
scientist?
What have <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>you<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>done and have you done any =
research?&gt;&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>Oh, Remi you really have pushed my buttons now! I recognise the
gentlemanly <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>tone of your request (you're a fellow Brit right?) but =
really...!
Perhaps <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>you did not see that it was an undoubtedly highly qualified =
scientist
from <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>the Royal Commission on Environmental Pollution who came out =
with the
&quot;<st1:country-region w:st=3D"on"><st1:place =
w:st=3D"on">US</st1:place></st1:country-region>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>climate loonies&quot; remarks. Sorry Remi, I think your =
attitude is
part of the <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>problem. Did you never hear that &quot;you don't need a =
weatherman to
know which <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>way the wind blows&quot;?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I =
have to
extrapolate your views from your email, but, rest =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>assured, in around 33 years of being an environmentalist =
(before there
were <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>any courses at colleges) I have encountered what appears to be =
your
argument <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>many, many times. It is at heart a patronising one (despite =
your
denial) <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>inasmuch it implies that you think your point of view and =
values
outrank the <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>&quot;non-qualified&quot; in this subject.You are so totally =
wrong in
your apparent <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>view that only people with qualifications as scientists or =
engineers
are <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>qualified to talk about this particular matter and be believed. =
In
fact, it <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>is the very heart of scientific philosophy that renders those =
who live
and <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>decide issues by this code DISQUALIFIED from having any =
validity if
they <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>think that it is a good method for making strategic policy =
decisions in
this <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>area. It is their duty not to comment as science is a =
post-dictive
subject. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>Scientific predictions are only hypotheses and cannot be relied =
upon.
As I <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>have explained so often to people like you, the whole danger of =
your <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>viewpoint is that one cannot conclusively prove that global =
warming is <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>happening/will happen without running the experiment i.e. =
letting us <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>continue to alter the global atmosphere and seeing what the =
ultimate
result <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>is. The consequences of doing so CANNOT be predicted accurately =
- they
may <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>resemble the results of computer modelling but then again, such =
models
may, <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>in due course, prove to be totally inadequate as predictive =
tools. I
can say <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>this as an absolute fact beyond the necessity of proof - it =
should be
self <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>evident to a truly intelligent person and not just a highly =
trained
one. If <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>some computer speculation suggests that the results may be =
catastrophic
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>while others say things will be fine, marginal or could be =
coped with,
then <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>raw intelligence dictates that, as we are dealing with a =
global&nbsp;
part of the <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>only life support system that we have, not only for humanity =
but all
the <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>countless millions of other lifeforms we share the Planet with =
(upon
many of <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>which we also depend), chances cannot be taken that the results =
will be
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>neutral, favourable or &quot;acceptable&quot;. If there is even =
a small
chance that <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>things could be well and truly screwed up, such a chance must =
not be
taken. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>It merely requires true intelligence to see this point. One =
cannot take
the <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>chance that new technology will arrive, like the =
<st1:country-region
w:st=3D"on"><st1:place w:st=3D"on">US</st1:place></st1:country-region> =
cavalry on
the brow of <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>the hill in the nick of time (but as you may know I have been =
following
cold <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>fusion since the beginning, as it could be a great solution). =
It is the
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>scientists, engineers, politicians, business men etc who do not
understand <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>this simple logic who are the problem. That is why I =
characterise those
who <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>do not understand this logic as morons or insane or both. =
Perhaps I
should <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>qualify that by saying instead &quot;functionally moronic&quot; =
or
&quot;functionally <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>insane&quot;. It certainly is the case that many of the =
stupidest, most
dangerous <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>beliefs and opinions around come from those who feel secure =
that
society has <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>awarded them a certificate (like the strawman in the Wizard of =
Oz who
wanted <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>a brain). Robert Park continues to spout his opinions on cold =
fusion
etc <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>which he undoubtedly feels superior enough to the common herd =
to do. He
used <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>to have a bit at the bottom of his &quot;&quot;What's New&quot; =
that
said something like <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>&quot;the opinions expressed here are the authors alone and not =
those
of the <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>American Physical society (but they should be)&quot;. The root =
cause of
the <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>problem is vanity - vanity of those qualified or experienced in =
one
field <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>who come to believe that their &quot;special quality&quot; =
gives their
viewpoint and <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>those of their similar peers, on matters outside their area, =
more
gravitas <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>than they deserve. If a Professor comes out with a stupid, =
dangerous <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>assertion and out of the mouth of a babe and suckling comes =
intelligent
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>sense, who do you listen too?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>Nick Palmer<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>Ex area coordinator for Jersey, <st1:place w:st=3D"on">Channel =
Islands</st1:place>,
Friends of the Earth. Ex <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>recycling and climate change campaigner. =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

</body>

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Nick further to what I said, you are going to find out who the real loonies
are when the lights go out. There is no substantial primal green power
source and if you think a few pretty wind mills in the north sea, a bit of
fart gas and a solar panel is going to do it you're nuts.

I heard to today T. Blair off the record said the same (Today program R4).
In this and some other matters (some) the US is correct.

There ain't enough generational capability without gas, coal and nuclear.
FACT.

Energy conservation good but not all the story.

Kyoto seems good but is impossible at present. FACT.

If politics is the "art of the possible", the ones getting their hands dirty
and not being obnoxious are trying to make it possible. So don't call people
in possession of the FACTS loonies. If you were trained you'd know Kyoto is
impossible - right now.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 26 10:37:47 2005
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From: "Jones Beene" <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
To: "vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject:  "Tojan Moon" II
Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 10:36:06 -0700
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For your Moon-day entertainment and/or "enlightenment:" a new-Vo =
short-story....

As mentioned in a previous posting, a so-called "Trojan" asteroid is a =
small captured proto-moon like the one named "Eureka" of Mars. It is =
defined as an asteroid located in a stable Lagrangian point of a =
planet's orbit. It does not circle-orbit the planet itself, but =
typically trails or leads the planet in the Lagrangian space. Earth has =
no such object, and the Trojans of Jupiter are too far from the Sun to =
be very useful.

Eureka, trailing Mars, is the *ideal location* for the creation of a =
very large (surface area) manufactured space-station - even a 100 =
million square kilometer solar array. Even a small asteroid can contain =
enough metal to do this when totally converted into thin mirrors and =
framework. No matter how cheap ZPE or LENR conversion even become, they =
will not come close to being competitive with this kind of 24/7 solar- =
with no clouds, atmosphere or weather hindrances.

If there were actual visitors from intelligent "alien" civilizations, =
who have arrived in our solar system to colonize, or even merely to =
"observe" and not interfere, then this is exactly where they would =
likely take up residence, as the advantages vis-a-vis being on any =
planet itself are great. Of all such locations, Eureka is by far the =
best in the entire solar system (based on what humans can surmise from =
our own technology-base), and the fact that no visitor seems to have =
begun to modify this location is indicative, but not conclusive, that no =
such visitors have ever arrived with the intention of staying. Or else =
their motives are far removed from what our own would be under similar =
circumstances.

Perhaps ET arrived, recorded the sad state of affairs on planet Earth, =
the impending global-warming catastrophe, and the enormous number of =
nuclear weapons and racial/religious hostility, indicating another world =
war... then (after getting in a good laugh or cry) they left for less =
hostile or more intelligent environs  ;-)

An asteroid containing lots of metal ore can be converted cheaply - over =
several centuries or even millennia, into a self-supporting environment, =
simply by minor changes to well-known manufacturing processes centered =
on refining and converting metal ore into useful structures. Using =
abundant unhindered solar energy and the work of autonomous, =
self-replicating robots, where lack of air, weather and water become =
advantages for this particular life-form (robotics), the only drawback =
is "time." These factory-bots can be small. Probably the only things =
which will be needed for self-replication, at least for the initial =
period of ongoing construction, are the "brains" i.e. the chips and =
control devices for the advanced computerized brains of these =
factory-bots.

If Earth does not self-destruct, and ever gets to the level of sending =
out an interstellar (beyond interplanetary) mission of its own, then it =
will likely be based on this concept of colonizing the best available =
location for self-replicating solar powered robotics. This means for =
setting up a permanent "base" using self-replication factory robots =
after which, that base then reaches maturity and itself sends out yet =
another "mission" similar to the way the Polynesians settled the Pacific =
- even reaching California.=20
http://www.berkeley.edu/news/berkeleyan/2005/08/03_chumash.shtml

It is very possible, that by using the "slingshot" effect of Earth and =
Mars - the free gravity-fields of these planets - that small payloads =
(such as thousands of AI-computers, "Son of Xbox" weighing a few grams =
each) will be able to land on Eureka cheaply, perhaps less than the cost =
of landing on Luna - if time is not  important. The bottom line is that =
by sending several tens of tons, of initial materiel, and then after =
that mostly chips, something amazing happens.=20

After a few completed factory robots have been built and begin =
self-replicating, then the "ROI" (or return on investment) - in terms of =
the mass of the useful structures which have been created, will be on =
the order of 10^7 to one (of the initial payloads) - or possibly much =
higher. That will be the ultimate inducement for the "mod" of Eureka by =
someone on Earth. It is capitalistic-economics, really.

The prospect of sending perhaps only 4-10 payloads to Eureka, following =
which there is a long - several hundred-year delay, during which time =
Eureka is converted into a million-gigawatt solar plant, and then using =
that energy to accelerate, power and steer the whole object into a =
closer Earthbound Lagrangian orbit, then this becomes not as big an =
initial investment as one might imagine. However the ROI could be =
immense.=20

But what is the cheapest overall "system" for pulling this off initially =
- if say, you are a former third-world country, or a very large =
international company? A country like India or China, in the near-future =
(about 50 years hence) having gotten its population under control, and =
tamed solar energy (or nuclear or ZPE or LENR), and accumulated enough =
national wealth to be desirous of "showing off" some of the newfound =
prowess on the "last frontier"- not to mention wanting to out-capitalize =
the capitalists, they might find this prospect desirable. A private =
company is not out of the question.

Pulling off the conversion of Eureka cheaply into a gigantic solar array =
is doable, but probably NOT the in the way the USA has accomplished its =
prior amazing space feats - the brute force approach of the space =
shuttle.=20

Even without a viable space-tether, it probably will involve reusable =
winged aircraft, powered by nuclear or ZPE-LENR, taking up small =
payloads which are assembled in low earth orbit. If ZPE and gravity are =
one-and-the-same, then you get the double bonus by going that route.

But then again, if we have harnessed ZPE in fifty years, why would =
anyone want that billion gigawatt solar station anyway?

Well, that could be the "real" Trojan....the surprise ending to this =
tale of future advancement giving way to baser emotions.=20

I don't think human-kind will ever give up its ingrained hostility and =
duplicity. This Trojan moon can turn blackmail into glowmail, as in... =
"if you don't pay us an ongoing "tribute" then we can vaporize any city =
in a matter of days by refocusing Eureka's power onto an earthly =
target....?"

Fiction or foreboding?

Jones


    Trojan moon, where does your power lie
    As you move across the southern sky
    You took my 'bots way too soon
    What have you done, Trojan moon ? 
------=_NextPart_000_004B_01C5C286.19BEFB80
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2722" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff background=3D"">
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>For your Moon-day entertainment and/or=20
"enlightenment:" a&nbsp;new-Vo short-story....</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>As mentioned in a previous posting,=20
a&nbsp;so-called "Trojan" asteroid&nbsp;is a small captured =
proto-moon&nbsp;like=20
the one named "Eureka" of Mars. It is defined as an asteroid located in =
a stable=20
Lagrangian point of a planet's orbit. It does not circle-orbit the =
planet=20
itself, but typically trails or leads the planet in the Lagrangian =
space. Earth=20
has no such object, and the Trojans of Jupiter are too far from the Sun =
to be=20
very useful.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Eureka, trailing Mars,&nbsp;is the =
*ideal location*=20
for the creation of a very large (surface area) manufactured =
space-station=20
-&nbsp;even a 100 million square kilometer solar array. Even a small =
asteroid=20
can contain enough metal to do this when totally converted into thin =
mirrors and=20
framework.&nbsp;No matter how cheap ZPE or LENR conversion even become, =
they=20
will not come close to being competitive with this kind of 24/7 solar- =
with no=20
clouds, atmosphere or weather hindrances.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>If there were actual visitors from =
intelligent=20
"alien" civilizations, who have arrived&nbsp;in our solar system to =
colonize, or=20
even merely to "observe" and not interfere, then this is exactly where =
they=20
would likely take up residence, as the advantages vis-a-vis being on any =
planet=20
itself are great. Of all such locations, Eureka&nbsp;is by far the best =
in the=20
entire solar system (based on what humans can surmise from our own=20
technology-base), and the fact that no visitor seems to have&nbsp;begun =
to=20
modify this location is indicative, but not conclusive,&nbsp;that no =
such=20
visitors have ever arrived&nbsp;with the intention of staying. Or else =
their=20
motives are far removed from what our own would be under similar=20
circumstances.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Perhaps ET arrived, recorded the sad =
state of=20
affairs on planet Earth, the impending global-warming catastrophe, and =
the=20
enormous number of nuclear weapons and racial/religious hostility, =
indicating=20
another world war... then (after getting in a good laugh or cry) they =
left for=20
less hostile or more intelligent environs&nbsp; ;-)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>An asteroid containing&nbsp;lots of =
metal ore=20
can&nbsp;be converted cheaply - over several centuries or even=20
millennia,&nbsp;into a self-supporting environment, simply by minor =
changes to=20
well-known manufacturing processes centered on refining and converting =
metal ore=20
into useful structures.&nbsp;Using abundant unhindered solar energy and =
the work=20
of autonomous, self-replicating robots, where&nbsp;lack of air, =
weather&nbsp;and=20
water become advantages for this particular life-form (robotics), the =
only=20
drawback is "time." These factory-bots can be small. Probably the only =
things=20
which will be needed for self-replication, at least&nbsp;for the initial =
period=20
of ongoing construction, are the "brains" i.e. the chips and control =
devices for=20
the advanced computerized brains of these factory-bots.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>If Earth does not self-destruct, and =
ever gets to=20
the level of sending out an interstellar (beyond&nbsp;interplanetary) =
mission of=20
its own, then&nbsp;it will likely be based on this concept of colonizing =
the=20
best available location for self-replicating solar powered robotics. =
This means=20
for setting up a permanent "base" using self-replication factory robots =
after=20
which, that base then reaches maturity and itself sends out yet another=20
"mission" similar to the way the Polynesians settled the Pacific - even =
reaching=20
California. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"http://www.berkeley.edu/news/berkeleyan/2005/08/03_chumash.shtml"=
>http://www.berkeley.edu/news/berkeleyan/2005/08/03_chumash.shtml</A></FO=
NT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>It is very possible, that by using the "slingshot" effect of Earth =
and Mars=20
- the free gravity-fields of these planets - that small payloads (such =
as=20
thousands of&nbsp;AI-computers, "Son of Xbox" weighing a few grams each) =
will be=20
able to land on Eureka cheaply, perhaps&nbsp;less than the cost of =
landing on=20
Luna - if time is not&nbsp; important.&nbsp;The bottom line is that by =
sending=20
several tens of tons, of initial materiel, and then after =
that&nbsp;mostly=20
chips, something amazing happens. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>After a few completed factory robots have been&nbsp;built and begin =

self-replicating, then the "ROI" (or return on investment) - in terms of =
the=20
mass of the useful structures which have been created, will be on the =
order of=20
10^7 to one (of the initial payloads) - or possibly much higher. That =
will be=20
the ultimate inducement for the "mod" of Eureka by someone on Earth. It =
is=20
capitalistic-economics, really.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The prospect of sending perhaps only 4-10 payloads to Eureka, =
following=20
which there is a long - several hundred-year delay, during which time =
Eureka is=20
converted into a million-gigawatt solar plant, and then using that =
energy to=20
accelerate, power and&nbsp;steer&nbsp;the whole object&nbsp;into a=20
closer&nbsp;Earthbound Lagrangian orbit, then this becomes not as big an =

initial&nbsp;investment as one might imagine. However the ROI could be =
immense.=20
</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>But what is the cheapest overall "system" for pulling this off =
initially -=20
if say, you are a former third-world country, or a very large=20
international&nbsp;company? A country like India or China, in the =
near-future=20
(about 50 years hence) having gotten its population under control, and =
tamed=20
solar energy (or nuclear or ZPE or LENR), and accumulated enough =
national wealth=20
to be desirous of "showing off" some of the newfound prowess on the =
"last=20
frontier"- not to mention wanting to out-capitalize the capitalists, =
they might=20
find this prospect desirable. A private company is not out of the=20
question.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Pulling off the conversion&nbsp;of Eureka cheaply into a gigantic =
solar=20
array&nbsp;is doable, but probably NOT the in the way the USA has =
accomplished=20
its prior amazing space feats - the brute force approach of the space =
shuttle.=20
</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Even without a viable space-tether, it probably will involve =
reusable=20
winged aircraft, powered by nuclear or ZPE-LENR, taking up small =
payloads which=20
are assembled in low earth orbit. If ZPE and gravity are =
one-and-the-same, then=20
you get the double bonus by going that route.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>But then again, if we have harnessed ZPE in fifty years, why would =
anyone=20
want that billion gigawatt solar station anyway?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Well, that could be the "real" Trojan....the surprise ending to =
this tale=20
of future advancement giving way to baser emotions. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>I don't think human-kind will ever give up its ingrained hostility =
and=20
duplicity. This Trojan moon can turn blackmail into glowmail, as in... =
"if you=20
don't pay us an ongoing "tribute" then we can vaporize any city in a =
matter of=20
days by refocusing Eureka's power onto an earthly target....?"</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Fiction or foreboding?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Jones</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Trojan moon, where does your power=20
lie<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; As you move across the southern=20
sky<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; You took my 'bots way too =
soon<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
What have you done, Trojan moon ? </FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_004B_01C5C286.19BEFB80--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 26 10:53:31 2005
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Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 13:51:38 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Let us have more evasiveness and weasel words in this debate!
In-Reply-To: <BE76853CB39E3B47B014207F18386A8F0AAB21A2 moulsecoomb.bton.
 ac.uk>
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R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk quotes someone else:

>Global Warming is a Hypothesis. . . .

The difference between a hypothesis and a theory is a matter of opinion, 
but I think most people in the climatology business would agree with that 
global warming is a highly likely hypothesis. Only the extent of the effect 
is debated. Experts on both sides of the debate use the good-form weasel 
words -- as they should -- such as "very likely" or "uncertain." For example:

Sir John Lawton, the guy who accused the US administration of being 
"climate loonies" says: "The increased intensity of these kinds of extreme 
storms is very likely to be due to global warming," Note he says "very 
likely." Not certain, but likely enough to make a do-nothing policy highly 
irrational. I agree with him.

In recent congressional testimony, some US weather service experts said 
they do not think the recent hurricanes have been intensified by global 
warming, but on the other hand they did not deny that CO2 causes warming. 
Max Mayfield, director of the National Hurricane Center in Miami: "The 
increased activity since 1995 is due to natural fluctuations (and) cycles 
of hurricane activity driven by the Atlantic Ocean itself along with the 
atmosphere above it and not enhanced substantially by global warming."

http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/science/09/23/hurricane.cycle/index.html

Maybe so. I cannot judge. Anyway, this is the right tone for a scientist.


>Yes, despite all the ranting and consensus science it has to consider 
>exhaustively other explanations and it has to make accurate predictions!

Statements like this are annoying.

Accurate predictions of global warming have been made, and present weather 
conditions meet them closely. This is like saying, "accurate calorimetry 
should be performed in cold fusion." I cannot judge whether the outcome 
from these predictions was a coincidence or not, but no one should accuse 
global warming proponents of having no models or not making accurate 
predictions.

One can never exhaust other explanations, even in principle. No conclusion 
will ever be reached if we stick to this standard too closely. Again, this 
is the tactic that opponents to cold fusion often employ.


>Don't trust computer models either, non-linear dynamical systems are prone 
>to Chaos and the input data would need to be precise and extensive to 
>assist convergence otherwise it's "Garbage In, Garbage Out (GIGO)" - just 
>how good is the weather forecast? One week if you're lucky.

Oh come now.


>If you don't want to condemn the World to a recession by a hypothesis, 
>find more oil and build more nuclear power stations.

Building nuclear power stations might be a good idea, but there is no more 
oil to be found, and it is a waste of resources to look for it.

The notion that conservation might cause a recession is disingenuous 
nonsense. Rapid implementation of things like carbon filament plug-in 
hybrid vehicles would not cause a recession, and this step alone could 
reduce the consumption of oil by a factor of ten or more.

I will grant, this would cost a ton of money, perhaps $1 trillion over the 
next 10 years. It may not be a good idea to divert such large sums of money 
just to solve this one problem. It is unfair to take people's money away 
and spend it on this, rather than letting them spend it on whatever they 
please. (Although, to put it in perspective, if we had done this 20 years 
ago we would have avoided the Iraqi war, which will probably cost $1.2 
trillion over 50 years, which is the time it takes for all of the disabled 
veterans to die.)

A plug-in hybrid megaproject might cause inflation. But the notion that 
this would plunge the nation into a recession is ridiculous. That is like 
saying war is bad for business.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 26 11:16:35 2005
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Subject: RE: Off topic - US climate loonies
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R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk wrote:

>There is no substantial primal green power source and if you think a few 
>pretty wind mills in the north sea . . .

With existing technology, North Sea wind turbines could produce four times 
more energy than all of northern Europe consumes. This is not debatable; it 
is an engineering matter of fact. The cost would be enormous, of course, 
and a gigantic new infrastructure would be needed to convert some of the 
energy to hydrogen for transportation and for times when most turbines are 
out of service, such as during severe storms.


>There ain't enough generational capability without gas, coal and nuclear.
>FACT.

This is not a fact at all. Someone just made it up. There is not a single 
authoritative government or industrial study that denies the overall 
potential of wind power in northern Europe. The only question is cost. If 
Cornwall knows differently, he should CITE HIS SOURCES. I can point to 
dozens of authoritative studies, and I do not think he can cite even one 
that contradicts them.

Of course there are many parts of the world which do not have wind 
resources, but northern Europe and North America are sitting on top of more 
wind energy than all of the Middle East can produce at peak oil pumping 
capacity.


>Energy conservation good but not all the story.

That's true. You need a primary source of energy. In the U.S. conservation 
is by far the cheapest and fastest way to begin solving the problem because 
we consume twice as much energy per dollar of GDP compared to our economic 
competitors, so all we need to do is buy the technology from them. Other 
countries that are already efficient will need new sources of primary energy.


>Kyoto seems good but is impossible at present. FACT.

Lots of things can become possible overnight. For example, the 9/11 attacks 
made it possible for the Bush administration to invade Iraq. That would 
have been unthinkable in 1999. Here are some plausible events that might 
cause vast changes to our energy policies nearly overnight:

The U.S. and Japan are hit with three more category five hurricanes this 
season, one in Miami that causes another $200 billion in damage. The public 
demands action. The 1952 London smog crisis finally triggered reform in the 
U.K., after 700 years of expert study and inaction.

A terrorist attack in Saudi Arabia closes down 5% of the world's oil 
production. The price of oil jumps to $160 per barrel. Something like this 
is bound to happen sooner or later.

Here is a somewhat less plausible nightmare scenario: al Qaeda destroys 
three major US cities with thermonuclear bombs stolen from the former 
Soviet Union. The surviving public would demand that we stop financing the 
war against ourselves with oil money.


>If you were trained you'd know Kyoto is impossible - right now.

There are no technical impediments to solving the energy crisis, merely 
social and political roadblocks. Such things can disappear overnight. I 
have often quoted Freeman Dyson on this:

". . . [The] experiences of World War II made an indelible impression on 
people of my generation. At the bottom of our hearts we still believe you 
can have anything you want in five years if you need it badly enough and if 
you are prepared to slog your way through the barriers of confusion and 
incompetence to get it. . . . The accepted wisdom says that, no matter what 
we decide to do about economic problems, we cannot expect to see any 
substantial results [for 15 years]. The accepted wisdom is no doubt 
correct, if we continue to play the game by the rules of today. But anyone 
who lived through World War II knows that the rules can be changed very 
fast when the necessity arises."

- Jed


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Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 15:28:34 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Let us have more evasiveness and weasel words in this
  debate!
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I wrote:

>The difference between a hypothesis and a theory is a matter of opinion, 
>but I think most people in the climatology business would agree with that 
>global warming is a highly likely hypothesis.

I meant to say ". . . if not a robust theory."

Recent actual changes in the weather are not a bit hypothetical. I do not 
think many serious climatologists doubts that hurricanes have become 
stronger, ocean temperatures are rising, and icepacks are melting. The 
cause is disputed, and the likely future course of events is questioned. It 
is easier to see present trends than to explain them.

Elsewhere, I wrote:

"With existing technology, North Sea wind turbines could produce four times 
more energy than all of northern Europe consumes. This is not debatable; it 
is an engineering matter of fact."

I am not suggesting we should do this! That would be crazy. Europeans would 
pay far more for electricity. A large fraction of the world's GDP would 
have to be diverted to this project, so more people elsewhere might starve. 
It would be more sensible to produce ~20% of electricity from wind, which 
is the present EU goal. In ideal locations such as Denmark and Ireland, 50% 
might be a reasonable goal, if load balancing can be ensured. See:

http://www.iwea.com/offshore/index.html#resource

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 26 12:37:53 2005
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From: "Craig Haynie" <public craighaynie.com>
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Subject: Who's Left?
Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 19:36:40 -0000
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Who's left trying to develop commercial Cold Fusion or cheap LENR? Have we 
given up on it?

It seems to me that only Black Light Power is continuing with their 
commercial plans. Are they our last hope for cheap, clean, abundant energy?

Craig Haynie


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 26 12:39:06 2005
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From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk
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This one produced on 21/7/05

http://www.dti.gov.uk/energy/sepn/secondannualreport.pdf

Try page 15, section 3.1 and then the nice graphic at the top of page 16.

FACTS not FICTION.

Jed, Nick, please grow up or take a phenothiazine derivative.

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Route around here http://www.dti.gov.uk/energy/ and get the facts. Jed
unlike CF, keeping the lights on is not politics or science fiction.

Honest to God, stop trying to turn science into politics. It's objective,
always has been, always will be.

You can't make a phenomenon happen by popular vote, going on a march,
praying or endorsement by pop idol. It just isn't like that.

Sorry old boy.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 26 12:52:46 2005
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Well the wind is blowing out here in Brighton it's the remnants of Katrina.
I should go home and watch the Bob Dylan documentary on BBC2. Well before my
time, have to find out what it's all about.

Better than talking nonsense to the nonsensical. You don't need a weatherman
to know that hippies are really crackers.

.......................................
Website
http://luna.bton.ac.uk/~roc1
.......................................

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R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk wrote:

>This one produced on 21/7/05
>
>http://www.dti.gov.uk/energy/sepn/secondannualreport.pdf
>
>Try page 15, section 3.1 and then the nice graphic at the top of page 16.

The graphic shows what is likely to happen, and what the experts believe 
would be economically feasible. It may even be the best choice. I do not 
argue with that. However, if the people in the UK decided to, they could 
throw out this projection, and derive all of their energy from North Sea 
wind 20 years from now. There is more than enough wind, and the U.K. has 
enough steel and concrete to manufacture the turbines.

People in the U.K. or the U.S. might be driven to do this by some dire 
event such as a nuclear attack or a series of category five hurricanes, as 
I said.

Of course this would mean that electricity and hydrogen fuel for vehicles 
would cost a lot more. You might end up paying $1/kWh for electricity for a 
while, and $10/gallon equivalent for synthetic gasoline. You could afford 
that, and you would not starve, but of course it would mean sacrificing a 
large part of your disposable income. It would not be as grim as the 
economic conditions were during WWII in the U.K., when most people did not 
have enough toothpaste, soap, gasoline, or hot water to live decently.

I am not recommending this course of action. I am saying there are no 
natural or engineering impediments that would prevent it. There are 
physical limits to other renewable energy sources. I doubt the U.K. could 
derive more than a small fraction of its energy from solar power, for 
example, whereas the U.S. or Australia have thousands of square kilometers 
of open desert that could be used for solar power. We have more than enough 
to produce all the energy we consume, with something like the Sterling 
Energy 25 kW gadgets. You would have to manufacture one of those gadgets 
for every 10 people, 30 million gadgets in total, and you would have to 
install power lines, hydrogen pipelines and so on. I suppose that would 
cost roughly as much a 60 million automobiles, which is how many we buy 
every 3.5 years. The U.S. can certainly afford that, although it would be a 
big sacrifice.

- Jed


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Jed, Nick,

You have talent you are good with words, organisation and fund raising. Why
not leave the science to the people doing it, listen to them and don't turn
it into a freak show with all the hyperbole but help to raise the profiles
of current renewables and renewables being researched without the hysterics.

Guys like you should be on the boards of companies and liaising with
government. Do stuff that may be your insular or just plain busy researchers
can't or won't. All I'm saying is that you need to get your facts right and
realise all this disaster movie stuff is going to wear thin one day.

Adopt a sensible measured approach and doors will open...

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Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 15:27:22 -0500
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On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 20:51:35 +0100, you wrote:

>Well the wind is blowing out here in Brighton it's the remnants of Katrina.
>I should go home and watch the Bob Dylan documentary on BBC2. Well before my
>time, have to find out what it's all about.

---
If you weren't then, you'll never know, but if you want to find out
what it is all about you need to look After Midnight.
---


>Better than talking nonsense to the nonsensical. You don't need a weatherman
>to know that hippies are really crackers.

---
Shell crackers.


-- 
John Fields
Professional Circuit Designer 

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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Who's Left?
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Craig Haynie wrote:

>Who's left trying to develop commercial Cold Fusion or cheap LENR?

I know of only 3 or 4 groups in the world, but there may be others with 
secret funding. Most of the researchers who published the papers at 
LENR-CANR.org are now retired or dead.


>Have we given up on it?

Of course not, but there is no funding, and political opposition makes it 
impossible to conduct experiments at most universities or corporations.


>It seems to me that only Black Light Power is continuing with their 
>commercial plans. Are they our last hope for cheap, clean, abundant energy?

Well, with conventional alternative energy, we could satisfy any two out of 
three of those criteria. I would vote clean and abundant, but not cheap. 
Fossil-fuel fails on all three counts.

As for CF . . .  You never know. A breakthrough might come even with 
minimal funding and only a few dozen people working worldwide. However, I 
think a breakthrough would be hundreds of times more likely if there were 
$5 or $10 million in funding.

- Jed


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From: OrionWorks <orionworks charter.net>
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Remi sez:

> Well the wind is blowing out here in Brighton it's the 
> remnants of Katrina.I should go home and watch the
> Bob Dylan documentary on BBC2. 
> Well before my time, have to find out what it's all about.
> 
> Better than talking nonsense to the nonsensical. You don't 
> need a weatherman to know that hippies are really crackers.
> 
> .......................................
> Website
> http://luna.bton.ac.uk/~roc1
> .......................................

Finding out what Bob Dylan was "all about" is probably a worthy pursuit.

In the meantime, since you are often forthcoming in your personal judgements of others it is only fair that you get a little return on your investment.

It does seems to me that you expend a great deal of your personal energy agitating just to see who you can piss off.

Kind of a crap shoot in a way. You never know who might come out of the woodwork.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

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From: John Fields <jfields austininstruments.com>
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Subject: Re: The Nick and Jed Show
Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 15:39:00 -0500
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On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 21:18:07 +0100, you wrote:

>Jed, Nick,
>
>You have talent you are good with words, organisation and fund raising. Why
>not leave the science to the people doing it, listen to them and don't turn
>it into a freak show with all the hyperbole but help to raise the profiles
>of current renewables and renewables being researched without the hysterics.
>
>Guys like you should be on the boards of companies and liaising with
>government. Do stuff that may be your insular or just plain busy researchers
>can't or won't. All I'm saying is that you need to get your facts right and
>realise all this disaster movie stuff is going to wear thin one day.
>
>Adopt a sensible measured approach and doors will open...

---
The doors to the mausoleum?

-- 
John Fields
Professional Circuit Designer 

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Remi Sez:
 
> Route around here http://www.dti.gov.uk/energy/ and
> get the facts. Jed unlike CF, keeping the lights on is
> not politics or science fiction.
> 
> Honest to God, stop trying to turn science into
> politics. It's objective, always has been, always will be.
> 
> You can't make a phenomenon happen by popular vote,
> going on a march, praying or endorsement by pop idol.
> It just isn't like that.
> 
> Sorry old boy.

Stop trying to turn science into politics?

If that were only true.

Remember Kennedy?s challenge to put a man on the moon and return him safely back to earth before the end of the decade?

But of course, Bob Dylan was before your time, as was, no doubt, the Moon race.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

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R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk wrote:

>You have talent you are good with words, organisation and fund raising. Why
>not leave the science to the people doing it, listen to them and don't turn
>it into a freak show with all the hyperbole . . .

This is ad hominem, uncalled for, and unacceptable. If Cornwall persists in 
this tone, I shall ignore his messages.

I have often listed publications from NREL and other authoritative sources 
showing the total amount of available wind energy in the world. Anyone can 
look it up. If Cornwall has reasons to doubt these publications he should 
tell us what his reasons are, and point to other authoritative 
publications. Insulting and belittling me does not refute NREL.

Cornwall asserted that it would be impossible to build enough alternative 
energy. I assume he meant physically impossible: "There ain't enough 
generational capability without gas, coal and nuclear. FACT." "Generational 
capability" refers to potential, rather than actual present power sources. 
Right? Everyone knows there is only 50 GW of wind power worldwide at 
present. That would be enough to supply all of the UK (40 GW total 
capacity) but those turbines are in Germany and Denmark, not the UK.

There is no question that potential wind resources far exceed present world 
consumption, and there is also no question that a country such as the UK 
could afford to build those turbines. Whether this would be a wise choice 
of action is, of course, debatable. I think the UK plan to supply 10% of 
its power is more sensible, and I agree with the UK Wind Association's 
"agnostic" view of nuclear power. See:

http://www.bwea.com/pdf/eac_keeping_lights_on_bwea_memo.pdf

- Jed


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Fearless. Bring it on.

> Finding out what Bob Dylan was "all about" is probably a worthy pursuit.

> In the meantime, since you are often forthcoming in your personal 
> judgements of others it is only fair that you get a little return on your
> investment.

> It does seems to me that you expend a great deal of your personal energy
> agitating just to see who you can piss off.

> Kind of a crap shoot in a way. You never know who might come out of the 
> woodwork.

> Regards,
> Steven Vincent Johnson
> www.OrionWorks.com

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Subject: Re: Who's Left?
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Craig Haynie" <public craighaynie.com>
Subject: Who's Left?


> Who's left trying to develop commercial Cold Fusion or cheap LENR? Have we
> given up on it?
>
> It seems to me that only Black Light Power is continuing with their
> commercial plans. Are they our last hope for cheap, clean, abundant
energy?
----------------------------
My impression is that there are a few continuing efforts toward commecial
applications, but because of the lack of patent protection these are
proceeding in secrecy and slowly.

In the CF world there is no equivalent to Mills, with a published theory
[correct or not], a body of patents, a series of experimental
demonstrations, published papers, and substantial private funding. Pieces of
this exist in the CF world, but not a coherent package with a driving
strategy. The ability of Mills to sell his vision, attract investors and a
substantial board of directors is not a trivial accomplishment. In the
history of innovation there have been a small number of men who combine the
necessary characteristics... Edison, Eastman, Land, Hewlett/Packard,
Goodyear, Ford, Gates, Sarnoff, Westinghouse...  One can argue about the
mertis of these and others, but they were catalytic to their times and
created industries. The the techies were essential but lacked other
qualities: Tesla, Armstrong, Farsnworth....

Mills seems to feel that his theoretical work is complete enough to recruit
partners for commercial development. The same is not true for the CF world,
where the set of phenomena is still not clear or *strong* effects replicable
enough to be a basis for commercial development. I hope someone can falsify
the preceding sentence.

Mike Carrell





>
> Craig Haynie
>
>
>
>
>



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Subject: Re: Off topic - US climate loonies
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Remi Cornwall's quotes are in << >>'s

<<Global Warming is a Hypothesis. Some very good people say it is =
conjecture (Fred Singer)>>  I clicked on the Fred Singer link. I see he =
is still as functionally idiotic and vain as ever - he is a prime =
example of functional insanity as defined by me.

<<Yes, despite all the ranting and consensus science it has to consider =
exhaustively other explanations and it has to make accurate predictions! =
>> NO, IT DOESN'T! - that would be nice to have but the only way to find =
out if they were accurate predictions is to see what happens in the end. =
If you really want climate science and predictions to be experimentally =
verified then you need multiple trips to the past in a time machine, =
changing one variable at a time, going forward in time, seeing the =
results, making a prediction based on ones' hypothesis, hopping in the =
time machine again back to the past, changing a variable, seeing if the =
results confirm your prediction, back in that tedious time machine, =
changing the variables again  etc etc. Only then will you be qualified =
to pontificate authoritatively on what the dangers, or otherwise, of =
altering climate gases are. As you and Fred Singer and all the others =
have not done this, your PERSONAL OPINION is no more valid than anybody =
else's. What actually needs to be taken into account is risk/benefit =
analysis and consequences rather than the personal musings of people =
such as Singer who adopt the mantle of serious scientist but plainly =
have forgotten the philosophy of  the scientific method and its limits.

<<Try to understand we don't say something *is so* until we know *it is =
so*.>> I note the vain, subtextually self-fashioning "we". I don't need =
to "try" to understand - I studied the history and philosophy of science =
privately, and at school, before you were conceived. I know the =
strengths of the scientific method but, far more importantly, I know the =
limits of its usefulness.  Many people who think of themselves as =
scientists, afflicted by vanity, only seem to appreciate the strengths =
and seem to have forgotten, or never knew, the limits of its =
usefulness.This means that a true scientist, asked for his advice, =
should not say "potentially dangerous X" is unproven, therefore we =
should not take preventative action until after we have established that =
X will be dangerous.
            In order to establish that X is dangerous, the only real way =
to do that is to run the experiment and see the results. If the results =
are that X wasn't a problem after all you can say "told you so"; if the =
results are that X was not only as dangerous as was forecast, according =
to the hypothesis, but, owing to unforeseen elements, was far worse than =
predictions, then it will not be much comfort to humanity if you admit =
you were wrong to think that everything would carry on as normal.=20


<<There is no substantial primal green power source>> I assume you meant =
"primary". A fundamental and telling error that many people make is to =
say that no individual green energy source is large enough to do the job =
and all of the other hundreds of energy sources and sustainable =
methodologies are not big enough to do the job. So what? This is related =
to another primary error of the anti-environmentalists - by looking only =
at the problems of energy generation and coming up only with arguments =
that relate to this, they "divide and conquer". An environmentally =
sustainable civilisation can only be worked out by far larger than =
scientific methods. Science is uniquely the wrong methodology to use. =
Like in maths, trying to solve a multi thousand variable simultaneous =
equation, it is tricky to say the least. When the experimental evidence =
for how climate reacts to changing variables isn't all in yet, it is =
beyond stupid to do nothing because the hypothesis hasn't been finally =
proved.=20

<<So don't call people in possession of the FACTS loonies>> You're =
assuming that you are in full possession of the facts and that others =
aren't or that their different facts are of less importance than yours. =
This whole thing is about basic survival strategy for our life support =
systems which supersedes and trumps the vanities of some of humanity and =
the limited partisan facts that give them succour.=20



<<What I object to is non-scientists carrying on like they know the =
scientific method>> You are saying that only a practicing, qualified, =
time-served scientist knows what the "scientific method" is? You cannot =
be serious! You need to tone down your misplaced arrogance. Remember the =
vanity I alluded too? -  you have it in five hundred mile high spades.

<<If you don't want to condemn the World to a recession by a =
hypothesis>>  Ridiculous, simple-minded "fool the gullible"propaganda =
from "big oil" and a percentage of big business designed to scare the =
weak minded -  motivated by appalling selfishness and criminal =
irresponsibility. Sustainable economics takes far more into account than =
the brutally stupid simplicity of GDP and GNP as the only bottom line. =
As others will no doubt point out, even classical economics would take =
all the economic activity of changing energy supply and infrastructure =
to be valuable...

         Your post script mentioned global warming being "properly a =
proto science" - the  Wikipedia link says <<In philosophy of science, a =
protoscience is any new area of scientific endeavor in the process of =
becoming established>> If you had read and understood what I wrote, you =
would see why we cannot afford to wait until it is "established" - that =
would be functionally moronic or insane or both. I cannot see how a =
truly intelligent person can continue to hold their view after this has =
been explained. It is extremely simple and the fact that so many cannot =
understand it, despite their training, qualifications etc shows how very =
stupid much of humanity is.

<< If you were trained you'd know Kyoto is impossible - right now>> =
Ridiculous handwaving. You don't seem to understand what a concerted =
effort from committed governments and people can do in a short period. =
Besides, the Kyoto protocol is only a start - a changeable route map to =
a goal..=20

<<There ain't enough generational capability without gas, coal and =
nuclear>> Nobody said that the solution will entail getting by without =
any of these energy sources, just that using them for the majority of =
our energy greeds (not needs) will not be necessary. Where I live (in =
the Bay of St Malo), the amount of totally reliable tidal energy is =
colossal and untapped and probably equals or exceeds the North sea wind =
resource. One of the main obstacles to alternative energy such as tidal =
race mills being commissioned is established bureaucrats/jobsworths who =
will only open the investment purses to established technology, largely =
because of their fear that they will be held to account if the promise =
doesn't live up to the hype. =20


Sweet dreams,

Nick Palmer
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2722" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
12pt"><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2>Remi Cornwall's quotes are in &lt;&lt;=20
&gt;&gt;'s</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
12pt"><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT></SPAN></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
12pt"><FONT=20
size=3D2>&lt;&lt;Global Warming is a Hypothesis. Some very good people =
say it is=20
conjecture (</FONT><A=20
href=3D"http://www.insightmag.com/media/paper441/news/2004/04/27/features=
/picture.profilesinger.cool.on.global.warming-658764.shtml"=20
target=3D_blank><FONT size=3D2>Fred Singer</FONT></A><FONT=20
size=3D2>)&gt;&gt;</FONT>&nbsp; I clicked on the Fred Singer link. I see =
he is=20
still as functionally idiotic and vain as ever - he is a prime example =
of=20
functional insanity as defined by me.</SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
12pt"><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT></SPAN></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
12pt"><FONT=20
size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">&lt;&lt;Yes, despite all the =
ranting and=20
consensus science it has to consider exhaustively other explanations and =
it has=20
to make accurate predictions! &gt;&gt; <FONT size=3D3>NO, IT DOESN'T! - =
that would=20
be nice to have&nbsp;but the only way to find out if they were accurate=20
predictions is to see what happens in the end. If you really want =
climate=20
science&nbsp;and predictions to be experimentally verified then you need =

multiple trips&nbsp;to the past in a time machine, changing one variable =
at a=20
time, going forward in time, seeing the results, making a prediction =
based on=20
ones' hypothesis, hopping in the time machine again back to the past, =
changing a=20
variable, seeing if the results confirm&nbsp;your prediction, back in =
that=20
tedious time machine, changing the variables again&nbsp;&nbsp;etc =
etc.&nbsp;Only=20
then will you be qualified to pontificate authoritatively on what the =
dangers,=20
or otherwise, of altering climate gases are. As you and Fred Singer and =
all the=20
others have not done this, your PERSONAL OPINION is no more valid than =
anybody=20
else's. What actually needs to be taken into account&nbsp;is =
risk/benefit=20
analysis and consequences rather than the personal musings of people =
such as=20
Singer who adopt the mantle of serious scientist but plainly have =
forgotten the=20
philosophy of&nbsp; the scientific method and its=20
limits.</FONT></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
12pt"><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT></SPAN></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
12pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">&lt;&lt;Try to understand we don=92t say =
something=20
*<B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">is so</SPAN></B>* until we know =
*<B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">it is so</SPAN></B>*.&gt;&gt; <FONT =
size=3D3>I note the=20
vain, subtextually self-fashioning&nbsp;"we". I don't need to "try" to=20
understand&nbsp;- I studied the history and philosophy of science =
privately, and=20
at&nbsp;school,&nbsp;before you were conceived. I know the strengths of =
the=20
scientific method but, far more importantly, I&nbsp;know the limits of =
its=20
usefulness. &nbsp;Many people who think of themselves as scientists, =
afflicted=20
by&nbsp;vanity, only seem to appreciate the strengths and seem to have=20
forgotten, or never knew, the limits of its usefulness.This means that a =
true=20
scientist, asked for his advice,&nbsp;should not say "potentially=20
dangerous&nbsp;X" is unproven, therefore we should not take preventative =
action=20
until after we have established that&nbsp;X will be=20
dangerous.</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
12pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><FONT=20
size=3D3>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;In=20
order to establish that X is dangerous, the only real way to do that is =
to run=20
the experiment and see the results. If the results are that X wasn't a =
problem=20
after all you can say "told you so"; if the results are that X was not =
only as=20
dangerous as was forecast, according to the hypothesis, but, owing to =
unforeseen=20
elements, was far worse than predictions, then it will not be much =
comfort to=20
humanity if you admit you were wrong to think that everything would =
carry on as=20
normal.&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
12pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
12pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">&lt;&lt;<FONT size=3D3><FONT =
size=3D2>There is no=20
substantial primal green power source</FONT>&gt;&gt; I assume you meant=20
"primary".&nbsp;A fundamental and telling error that many people make is =
to say=20
that no individual green energy source is large enough to do the job and =
all of=20
the other hundreds of energy sources and sustainable methodologies are =
not big=20
enough to do the job. So what?&nbsp;This is related to&nbsp;another =
primary=20
error of the anti-environmentalists - by looking only at the problems of =
energy=20
generation and coming up only with arguments that relate to this, they =
"divide=20
and conquer". An environmentally sustainable civilisation&nbsp;can only =
be=20
worked out by far&nbsp;larger than&nbsp;scientific methods. Science is =
uniquely=20
the wrong methodology to use. Like in maths, trying to solve a multi =
thousand=20
variable simultaneous equation, it is tricky to say the least. When the=20
experimental evidence for how climate reacts to changing =
variables&nbsp;isn't=20
all in yet, it is beyond stupid to do nothing because the hypothesis =
hasn't been=20
finally&nbsp;proved. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">&lt;&lt;<FONT size=3D3><FONT =
size=3D2>So don't=20
call people in possession of the FACTS loonies</FONT>&gt;&gt; You're =
assuming=20
that you are in full possession of the facts and that others aren't or =
that=20
their different facts are of less importance than yours. This whole =
thing is=20
about basic survival strategy for our life support systems&nbsp;which =
supersedes=20
and trumps the vanities of some of&nbsp;humanity and the limited=20
partisan&nbsp;facts that give them succour.&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">&lt;&lt;What I object to is =
non-scientists=20
carrying on like they know the scientific method&gt;&gt; <FONT =
size=3D3>You are=20
saying that only a practicing, qualified, time-served scientist knows =
what the=20
"scientific method" is? You cannot be serious! You need to tone down =
your=20
misplaced arrogance.&nbsp;Remember the vanity I alluded too? -&nbsp; you =
have it=20
in five hundred mile high spades</FONT>.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">&lt;&lt;<SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
10pt">If you=20
don't want to condemn the World to a recession by a <B><I><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-STYLE: =
italic">hypothesis</SPAN></I></B>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;=20
<FONT size=3D3>Ridiculous, simple-minded "fool the gullible"propaganda =
from "big=20
oil" and a percentage of big business designed to scare the weak minded =
-&nbsp;=20
motivated by appalling selfishness and criminal irresponsibility. =
Sustainable=20
economics takes far more into account than the brutally stupid =
simplicity of GDP=20
and GNP as the only bottom line. As others will no doubt point out, even =

classical economics would take all the economic activity of changing =
energy=20
supply and infrastructure to be valuable...</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
10pt"><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT></SPAN></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
10pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT=20
size=3D3> Y</FONT></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><FONT size=3D3>our post script mentioned =
global warming=20
being "properly&nbsp;a proto science" - the&nbsp; Wikipedia=20
link&nbsp;says</FONT>&nbsp;&lt;&lt;In <A title=3D"Philosophy of science" =

href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_science">philosophy =
of=20
science</A>, a <B>protoscience</B> is any new area of <A title=3DScience =

href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science">scientific endeavor</A> in =
the=20
process of becoming established&gt;&gt; <FONT size=3D3>If you had read =
and=20
understood what I wrote, you would see why we cannot afford to wait =
until it is=20
"established" - that would be functionally moronic or insane or both. I =
cannot=20
see how a truly intelligent person can continue to hold their view after =
this=20
has been explained. It is extremely simple and the fact that so many =
cannot=20
understand it, despite their training, qualifications etc shows how very =
stupid=20
much of humanity is</FONT>.</SPAN></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
10pt"><FONT=20
face=3DArial></FONT></SPAN></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
10pt"><FONT=20
size=3D3>&lt;&lt;&nbsp;<FONT size=3D2>If you were trained you'd know =
Kyoto is=20
impossible - right now</FONT>&gt;&gt; Ridiculous handwaving. You don't =
seem to=20
understand what a concerted effort from committed governments and people =
can do=20
in a short period. Besides, the Kyoto protocol is only a start -&nbsp;a=20
changeable route map to a goal..&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
10pt"><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT></SPAN></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
10pt"><FONT=20
face=3DArial>&lt;&lt;</FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3><FONT size=3D2>There=20
ain't enough generational capability without gas, coal and=20
nuclear</FONT>&gt;&gt; Nobody said that the solution will entail getting =
by=20
without any of these energy sources, just that using them for the =
majority of=20
our energy greeds (not needs)&nbsp;will not be necessary. Where I live =
(in the=20
Bay of St Malo), the amount of totally reliable tidal energy is colossal =
and=20
untapped and probably equals or exceeds the North sea wind resource. One =
of the=20
main obstacles to alternative energy such as tidal race mills&nbsp;being =

commissioned&nbsp;is established bureaucrats/jobsworths&nbsp;who will =
only open=20
the investment purses to established technology, largely because of =
their fear=20
that they will be held to account if the promise doesn't live up to the=20
hype.&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
10pt"><FONT=20
size=3D3></FONT></SPAN></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
10pt"><FONT=20
face=3DArial></FONT></SPAN></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
10pt"><FONT=20
face=3DArial>Sweet dreams,</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
10pt"><FONT=20
face=3DArial></FONT></SPAN></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
10pt"><FONT=20
face=3DArial>Nick Palmer</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C5C2E6.839EB490--


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 26 14:13:39 2005
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From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: RE: Who's Left?
Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 22:12:48 +0100
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Sanity. Sanity. Hallelujah! 

Not an ad hominem in site!

"For the times they are ah chang......ING!" 

-----Original Message-----
From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On
Behalf Of Mike Carrell
Sent: 26 September 2005 22:02
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Who's Left?

My impression is that there are a few continuing efforts toward commecial
applications, but because of the lack of patent protection these are
proceeding in secrecy and slowly.

In the CF world there is no equivalent to Mills, with a published theory
[correct or not], a body of patents, a series of experimental
demonstrations, published papers, and substantial private funding. Pieces of
this exist in the CF world, but not a coherent package with a driving
strategy. The ability of Mills to sell his vision, attract investors and a
substantial board of directors is not a trivial accomplishment. In the
history of innovation there have been a small number of men who combine the
necessary characteristics... Edison, Eastman, Land, Hewlett/Packard,
Goodyear, Ford, Gates, Sarnoff, Westinghouse...  One can argue about the
mertis of these and others, but they were catalytic to their times and
created industries. The the techies were essential but lacked other
qualities: Tesla, Armstrong, Farsnworth....

Mills seems to feel that his theoretical work is complete enough to recruit
partners for commercial development. The same is not true for the CF world,
where the set of phenomena is still not clear or *strong* effects replicable
enough to be a basis for commercial development. I hope someone can falsify
the preceding sentence.

Mike Carrell





>
> Craig Haynie
>
>
>
>
>


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 26 14:18:25 2005
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Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 17:16:05 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: Off topic - US climate loonies
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OrionWorks wrote:

>Remember Kennedy's challenge to put a man on the moon and return him 
>safely back to earth before the end of the decade?

Not to quibble with this fine example of technological derring-do, but the 
Manhattan Project is closer to the physical scale of operations we require. 
The Apollo project required little physical infrastructure, and not many 
people, whereas the Manhattan project required the construction of entire 
cities, and at its peak it consumed something like 10% of all U.S. 
electricity, as I recall. The weapons program used 5,100 factories, and 
before it finished in the 1970s, it produced 820 million kilograms of 
nuclear waste, and 1.5 billion cubic meters of contaminated water and solid 
material (96% water) (see "Linking Legacies," p. 7, p. 80).

By the way, I do not think it would be a good idea for the US to embark on 
a Federally funded Manhattan Project scale energy project. Given the 
present administration's competence, its attitude toward energy, and the 
recently passed energy bill, I am afraid any large-scale project would be 
misguided, and the money would be wasted. The only energy project Bush has 
endorsed is the hydrogen automobile, which he wants to schedule 40 years 
from now. This is a bad idea! I favor the free market development of things 
like plug-in hybrid automobiles; or the accelerated installation of 100,000 
wind turbines and Sterling Energy gadgets. Some support from government 
would be welcome, but I doubt we will see any. The best energy policy would 
be to put a $1/per gallon emergency wartime tax on gasoline, but there is 
no chance this administration would do that.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 26 14:32:31 2005
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From: OrionWorks <orionworks charter.net>
Organization: OrionWorks
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
CC: <orionworks charter.net>
Subject: RE: Who's Left?
Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 16:31:36 -0500
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> From: R.O.Cornwall
> 
> Sanity. Sanity. Hallelujah! 
> 
> Not an ad hominem in site!
> 
> "For the times they are ah chang......ING!" 
> 
>> From Mike Carrell
>> 
>> My impression is that there are a few continuing efforts 
>> toward commecial applications, but because of the lack of
>> patent protection these are proceeding in secrecy and slowly.
>> 
>> In the CF world there is no equivalent to Mills, with a 
>> published theory [correct or not], a body of patents, a
>> series of experimental demonstrations, published papers, and
>> substantial private funding. Pieces of this exist in the CF
>> world, but not a coherent package with a driving strategy.
>> The ability of Mills to sell his vision, attract investors
>> and a substantial board of directors is not a trivial
>> accomplishment. In the history of innovation there have been
>> a small number of men who combine the necessary 
>> characteristics... Edison, Eastman, Land, Hewlett/Packard,
>> Goodyear, Ford, Gates, Sarnoff, Westinghouse...  One can 
>> argue about the mertis of these and others, but they were
>> catalytic to their times and created industries. The the
>> techies were essential but lacked other qualities: Tesla,
>> Armstrong, Farsnworth....
>> 
>> Mills seems to feel that his theoretical work is complete 
>> enough to recruit partners for commercial development. The
>> same is not true for the CF world, where the set of phenomena
>> is still not clear or *strong* effects replicable enough to be
>> a basis for commercial development. I hope someone can falsify
>> the preceding sentence.
>> 
>> Mike Carrell

There is also a political component to the arduous development cycle as well that can't be ignored.

I believe Mike Carrell has also mentioned the fact that Dr. Mills as gone to some length to distance his company's efforts from those coming from the Cold Fusion community, not wishing to allow the "BLP process" to be in any way associated with CF.

For better or worse, BLP would prefer to slug it out alone.

Politically speaking it's looking like it may have been a wise decision.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 26 14:53:18 2005
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Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 17:51:50 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: Who's Left?
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OrionWorks wrote:

>I believe Mike Carrell has also mentioned the fact that Dr. Mills as gone 
>to some length to distance his company's efforts from those coming from 
>the Cold Fusion community, not wishing to allow the "BLP process" to be in 
>any way associated with CF.

I believe Mills has some sort of theoretical objection to CF. He does not 
believe it is fusion or fission, or that his own results are.


>For better or worse, BLP would prefer to slug it out alone.
>
>Politically speaking it's looking like it may have been a wise decision.

I doubt this makes any difference. CF is not on the radar. There is no 
active opposition to it by the establishment, except from a tiny group of 
people such as Robert Park. The rest of the establishment pays no attention 
to CF and appears to be unaware that the research exists.

People worldwide have downloaded ~400,000 papers from LENR-CANR.org, so 
there is widespread knowledge, but there are millions of people out there, 
and I doubt many high-level establishment opinion makers have had the time 
or inclination to look at LENR-CANR. Whenever I have had occasion to 
communicate with such people (scientists, journalists or politicians), they 
express surprise and bewilderment. They always say, "I thought that stuff 
was thrown out back in 1989." These people have no reason to feign surprise 
or deceive me, so I assume they are being honest.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 26 15:03:52 2005
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From: John Fields <jfields austininstruments.com>
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Subject: Re: Off topic - US climate loonies
Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 17:02:46 -0500
Organization: Austin Instruments, Inc
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On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 20:37:38 +0100, you wrote:

>Route around here http://www.dti.gov.uk/energy/ and get the facts. Jed
>unlike CF, keeping the lights on is not politics or science fiction.
>
>Honest to God, stop trying to turn science into politics. It's objective,
>always has been, always will be.

---
Science and politics have always been and will always be
inextricably linked.

Clean science _is_ objective, but there's no such thing as 'clean
politics'  because politics more often than not gets in the way of
the search for truth when the politicians who are called upon to get
funding for, say, the SCSC try to figure out, "What's in it for me?"
and demur if there's no immediate benefit.   

After all, why were Columbus's voyages funded?  For the esthetic
excitement of finding a new world?  Hardly.  A shorter route to the
spice islands and the profit to be exacted from that route was the
goal, and that justified the risk of the loss of capital.
---
  
>You can't make a phenomenon happen by popular vote, going on a march,
>praying or endorsement by pop idol. It just isn't like that.

---
Wrong.  Take a look at Ghandi and what he forced the UK to do
without his use of physical force.
---

-- 
John Fields
Professional Circuit Designer 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 26 15:43:37 2005
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Subject: Concentrated Solar Power (CSP) stats
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As I said, the U.S. has plenty of space for solar energy. Let's look at the 
prospects for something like the Stirling Energy gadgets. See:

http://www.epa.gov/cleanenergy/pdf/morse-dec6.pdf

QUOTES:

Why Policy Makers Should care about Solar Energy and Concentrating Solar Power

Even though the fossil fuel lobby is the most powerful of them all, and the 
wind industry is the most organized among the renewables, the American 
people would like to think that policy makers are making energy choices 
that are in the best interests of their health, pocket book, security and 
the environment that they will leave to their
grandchildren. I believe that solar energy is the best choice for the 
country and that CSP is the best choice for the southwest. . . .



SW Solar Energy Potential

Solar Capacity Area

State, MW, Sq Mi
AZ, 1,652,000, 12,790
CA, 742,305, 5,750
NV, 619,410, 4,790
NM, 1,119,000, 9,157
Total, 4,132,715, 32,487

The table and map represent land that has no primary use today, exclude 
land with slope > 1%, and do not count sensitive lands.

Solar Energy Resource >= 7.0 kWhr/m2/day (includes only excellent and 
premium resource)

Current total generation in the four states is 83,500 MW.


- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 26 18:49:11 2005
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From: "RC Macaulay" <walhalla cvtv.net>
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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BlankOcean tidal action is a source of energy that has not been =
exploited to it's potential.

For example, for the price of the Boston "Chunnel" at 15 billion and =
rising, a fair to middlin' tidal power electric generator station could =
be in operation=20
How you say?

submerged inflatible "bags" filled with liquid. A turbine located below =
the elevation of the bags would handle bi- directional flow from the =
bags to a surge tank and reverse. Works on the principle of a =
hydro-pneumatic tank. Add a little Schauberger vortex feature and =
Shazzaam! you have a very inefficent turbine driven generator. Cheap and =
dirty. But tidal action is a most dependable source of energy and its =
free. < tongue in cheek> provided of course, the moon keeps rising .

Richard


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<DIV>Ocean tidal action is a source of energy that has not been =
exploited to=20
it's potential.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>For example, for the price of the Boston "Chunnel" at 15 billion =
and=20
rising, a fair to middlin' tidal power electric generator station could =
be in=20
operation </DIV>
<DIV>How you say?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>submerged inflatible "bags" filled with liquid.&nbsp;A turbine =
located=20
below the elevation of the bags would handle bi- directional flow =
from&nbsp;the=20
bags to a surge tank and reverse. Works on the principle of a =
hydro-pneumatic=20
tank. Add a little Schauberger vortex feature and Shazzaam! you have a =
very=20
inefficent turbine driven generator. Cheap and dirty. But tidal action =
is a most=20
dependable source of energy and its free. &lt; tongue in cheek&gt; =
provided of=20
course, the moon keeps rising .</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Richard</DIV>
<P>&nbsp;</P></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 26 21:01:08 2005
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: deceptively simple question
Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 14:00:04 +1000
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Hi,

if hot air rises, and thereby creates a low pressure region, then
why are low pressure regions always accompanied by cold fronts
rather than warm fronts?

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

In a town full of candlestick makers, 
everyone lives in the light,
In a town full of thieves, 
there is only one candle, 
and everyone lives in the night.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 26 21:14:18 2005
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From: leaking pen <itsatrap gmail.com>
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its a cold front on teh ground.

On 9/26/05, Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> if hot air rises, and thereby creates a low pressure region, then
> why are low pressure regions always accompanied by cold fronts
> rather than warm fronts?
>
> Regards,
>
> Robin van Spaandonk
>
> In a town full of candlestick makers,
> everyone lives in the light,
> In a town full of thieves,
> there is only one candle,
> and everyone lives in the night.
>
>


--
"Monsieur l'abb=E9, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to ma=
ke
it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire

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its a cold front on teh ground.<br><br>
<div><span class=3D"gmail_quote">On 9/26/05, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">=
Robin van Spaandonk</b> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rvanspaa bigpond.net.au">rvan=
spaa bigpond.net.au</a>&gt; wrote:</span>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">Hi,<br><br>if hot air rises, and=
 thereby creates a low pressure region, then<br>why are low pressure region=
s always accompanied by cold fronts
<br>rather than warm fronts?<br><br>Regards,<br><br>Robin van Spaandonk<br>=
<br>In a town full of candlestick makers,<br>everyone lives in the light,<b=
r>In a town full of thieves,<br>there is only one candle,<br>and everyone l=
ives in the night.
<br><br></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br>&quot;Monsieur =
l'abb=E9, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it poss=
ible for you to continue to write&quot;&nbsp;&nbsp;Voltaire=20

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 26 21:16:45 2005
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>>You can't make a phenomenon happen by popular vote, going on a march,
>>praying or endorsement by pop idol. It just isn't like that.

John Fields wrote:
---
> Wrong. Take a look at Ghandi and what he forced the UK to do
> without his use of physical force.

Sorry, I just can't let this one go, no matter how far off topic it
is.  About ten years after Adolf von Baeyer first synthesized indigo
dye in 1883, it came into commercial production. This tipped the
balance for the British Raj.  India as a colony was no longer a 
profitable business.  Further, India no longer had enough stategic 
value to continue to subsidize the British presence there.

The continued prestige of having India as a colony was wearing thin,
considering the expense.  The British aristocracy and the army liked
having it around, but more practical minds were looking for a way out.

Clearly, if the British had any real reason to stay, they would have.
And let's face it; it was the British.  It wasn't the Russians or the
Spanish or the French, who probably would have just shot anybody acting
like Ghandi and been done with it. Ghandi knew this and took advantage
of it.  Give the British themselves some credit.

And ask yourself this.  How many people died in the violence of the 
partition of India and Pakistan following Ghandi's "success"?

It seems we tend to make saints of people who accomplish a goal while
killing a lot of people, and at the same time we virtually ignore those
who accomplish an equally laudible goal with no killing at all. As an
example, take a look at the Lincoln Memorial.  There sits Abraham Lincoln,
resembling for all the world a martyred saint.  Yet, even though we agree
with what he did, he was responsible for the death of more Americans than
anyone else in our short history.  I suspect if he had pulled the whole thing
off with some deft politics, people would still be arguing about what a
terrible president he was.

Ever been to Napoleon's tomb?  You'd think it was the tomb of Jesus 
himself to look at it.  Killed more Frenchmen than anyone else, except
maybe Clemenceau.

M.

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Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: deceptively simple question
Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 14:27:42 +1000
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  leaking pen's message of Mon, 26 Sep 2005 21:13:25
-0700:
Hi,
[snip]
>its a cold front on teh ground.

As opposed to??

>
>On 9/26/05, Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au> wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> if hot air rises, and thereby creates a low pressure region, then
>> why are low pressure regions always accompanied by cold fronts
>> rather than warm fronts?
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

In a town full of candlestick makers, 
everyone lives in the light,
In a town full of thieves, 
there is only one candle, 
and everyone lives in the night.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 26 21:41:25 2005
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Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 00:39:23 -0500
From: Harry Veeder <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: Models
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Models compel us to make decisions that we would not ordinarily make.

For example hurricane models suggest what decisions should be made on
Tuesday to save lives on Friday. If knowledge were the only purpose of
science and reason, then one could do nothing and wait to find out if
Tuesday's hypothesis proves correct on Friday.

A similar dilemma arises with models concerning global warming, although
the scale of the crisis is global and the time frame is decades rather than
days.

Harry


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Harry,
We are dealing with uncertainties; we take the weight of the uncertainty and
the risk if we do nothing and come up with an action plan. What Jed and Nick
seem to think is that "global warming" is an absolute already proven. I put
it you that the drip, drip of news every day from the GW gravy train is the
selection of data favourable to their cause.

You can argue the other way: carbon burning is good for the planet and the
economy. We should be instructing governments to find as much and burn as
much as they can. CO2 stimulates plant growth, economic growth lifts mankind
out of poverty and ignorance, gives justice, stops wars (let's have none of
this noble savage nonsense).

Now I don't know or believe the above like I don't know or believe GW. The
most prudent thing to do is to invest in a *diverse* range of renewables
like an investment portfolio we don't put all our eggs in one basket.

It is quite obvious that the untrained think that shouting loud enough makes
something right. GW like CF is mass delusion and pop science. If you cannot
present information in the correct manner through the correct channels
something is wrong. Whatcha gonna do next, have young girls with banners "GW
is right!!", "Make love for the planet!", love-ins, sit-ins, marches and get
all that emotional nonsense working.

Be patient, professional and mature. Those spouting conspiracy theories
should be educating themselves with the FACTS, learning things such as
company law, accountancy etc. No doubt they are the talkers, not the do-ers
but talkers have some merits - publicity, raising the profile for
investment. If you are going to act loony tunes, who's going to want to
know? You just cannot talk to the University Establishment, MPs, government
ministers, DTi, DoE and spout all that ridiculous bull. Just keep things
professional.

Probably wasted advice, I expect lots of ad-homs but are you peons or
players?

Remi.

-----Original Message-----
From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On
Behalf Of Harry Veeder
Sent: 27 September 2005 06:39
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Models


Models compel us to make decisions that we would not ordinarily make.

For example hurricane models suggest what decisions should be made on
Tuesday to save lives on Friday. If knowledge were the only purpose of
science and reason, then one could do nothing and wait to find out if
Tuesday's hypothesis proves correct on Friday.

A similar dilemma arises with models concerning global warming, although
the scale of the crisis is global and the time frame is decades rather than
days.

Harry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 27 02:42:54 2005
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From: "Nick Palmer" <nickp wynterwood.co.uk>
To: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: OT - Some of Fred Singer's greatest climate inconsistencies
Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 10:41:13 +0100
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>From the Fred Singer link that Remi  posted:- =
http://www.insightmag.com/media/paper441/news/2004/04/27/features/picture=
.profilesinger.cool.on.global.warming-658764.shtml


<<Q: What are some of the weak points about the global-warming argument?

A: The fact that they don't properly take into account the effects of =
clouds in the atmosphere. Clouds will cool the climate rather than warm =
the climate. When you try to warm the ocean, I argued - and the argument =
is still sound - you evaporate more water and create more clouds and =
this reduces the amount of solar radiation. What you have is a kind of =
negative feedback which keeps the temperature from rising very much.>>

and also

 << I belong to the latter school, as I say, and what we do is analyze =
the data. Just now we have a new result. It's been known for a long time =
that the weather satellites do not show any warming, but the first group =
(global warming advocates - NP) tends to neglect this information. They =
argue that the weather satellites have only been around for 25 years and =
that's too short a time to tell. It's a specious argument. Or they say =
there's something wrong with the weather satellites, though they haven't =
been able to show that there's anything at all wrong with them.

So now we find that not only the weather satellites but also weather =
balloons, which measure temperature in a completely different way than =
the satellites, give the same results as the satellites.

However a little digging revealed...

>From Singers own website http://www.sepp.org/controv/glaciers.html
<<5. While there is some warming going on in northern =
mid-latitudes--evident in both the ground-based and satellite global =
temperature records--its appearance has not been consistent with =
greenhouse theory, which posits the greatest warming at the poles. (The =
Antarctic, in July 1997 and April 1998, posted record cold temperatures) =


One possible explanation--the focus of an annual scientific conference =
hosted by NASA over the past several years--is the regional effect of =
commercial airline traffic. Some studies, including one by S. Fred =
Singer, conclude that thin cirrus clouds created by airline contrails =
create a regionally enhanced greenhouse effect.>>

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------------------------------------------------

I admit that is only two aspects looked at superficially viz, the effect =
of clouds and the satellite measurements but these types of arguments =
are a large part of  what is quoted about Singer and his brood  by the =
climate change deniers as clear cut "evidence" that global warming is =
junk science. Singer has rightly stated that increased clouds from =
increased evaporation from ocean warming will reflect more incoming =
solar radiation back to space by increasing the average albedo of Earth. =
Perhaps cloud covered Venus should be a lot colder than it is! Perhaps =
he has neglected to consider that water vapour (the transparent H2O gas =
that is the "humidity" in the atmosphere) is also a potent greenhouse =
gas and is present in all the gaps between clouds (clouds are condensed =
water vapour), which are generally larger! He also seems to ignore the =
fact that increased cloud cover provides a "blanket" at night as well =
that reflects heat radiation back to Earth rather than allowing it to =
escape back into space.  He inadvertently partially acknowledges this by =
his own theory (above) that high cirrus creates "a regionally enhanced =
greenhouse effect" - that is, if he cast a critical eye over his own =
output!   =20

And again, in Singer's own words from 1997

http://www.sepp.org/glwarm/satdata.html

<<And what about future warming? When all is said and done, we can =
conclude there will be some warming as a result of the growth in =
atmospheric greenhouse gases perhaps not more than 1 degree F by the =
year 2100, which would be barely measurable and completely =
inconsequential.

But long before then, a few more years of satellite data will make it =
obvious that global warming is a non-problem.>>



He concludes above that human induced warming is a virtual certainty, =
but will not be a problem. The sub text here is that Singer is claiming =
that he knows so much about climate science that he knows exactly what =
will happen and how much and his predictions will come to pass and that =
everything will be all right. The ancient Greeks would have called this =
hubris. Nowadays, we say that "pride goeth before a fall". He may be =
right, in which case, in 100 years, people will still be laughing at the =
vast majority of  current climatologists, environmentalists etc.He may =
be wrong in his super certainty that he can predict the future - it may =
just be that some itsy-bitsy butterfly's wing of a feedback effect may =
have been overlooked by his allseeing eye and, rather than the =
relatively sedate temperature rise predictions of the global warming =
scientists (some of whom also suffer from the same type of hubris as =
Singer and his ilk), the consequential possibility of a runaway feedback =
effect CANNOT be ruled out. Recently there has been concern raised about =
undersea methane clathrates and the thawing permafrost releasing =
methane...=20

Nick Palmer

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<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2722" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>From the Fred Singer link that Remi&nbsp; posted:- <A=20
href=3D"http://www.insightmag.com/media/paper441/news/2004/04/27/features=
/picture.profilesinger.cool.on.global.warming-658764.shtml">http://www.in=
sightmag.com/media/paper441/news/2004/04/27/features/picture.profilesinge=
r.cool.on.global.warming-658764.shtml</A></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><STRONG></STRONG>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><STRONG>&lt;&lt;Q:</STRONG> What are some of the weak points about =
the=20
global-warming argument?<BR><BR><B>A:</B> The fact that they don't =
properly take=20
into account the effects of clouds in the atmosphere. Clouds will cool =
the=20
climate rather than warm the climate. When you try to warm the ocean, I =
argued -=20
and the argument is still sound - you evaporate more water and create =
more=20
clouds and this reduces the amount of solar radiation. What you have is =
a kind=20
of negative feedback which keeps the temperature from rising very=20
much.&gt;&gt;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>and also</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&lt;&lt; <FONT face=3D"Times New =
Roman"=20
size=3D3>I belong to the latter school, as I say, and what we do is =
analyze the=20
data. Just now we have a new result. It's been known for a long time =
that the=20
weather satellites do not show any warming, but the first group (global =
warming=20
advocates -&nbsp;NP)&nbsp;tends to neglect this information. They argue =
that the=20
weather satellites have only been around for 25 years and that's too =
short a=20
time to tell. It's a specious argument. Or they say there's something =
wrong with=20
the weather satellites, though they haven't been able to show that =
there's=20
anything at all wrong with them.<BR><BR>So now we find that not only the =
weather=20
satellites but also weather balloons, which measure temperature in a =
completely=20
different way than the satellites, give the same results as the=20
satellites.</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>However a little digging =
revealed...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>From Singers own website <A=20
href=3D"http://www.sepp.org/controv/glaciers.html">http://www.sepp.org/co=
ntrov/glaciers.html</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<P>&lt;&lt;5. While there is some warming going on in northern=20
mid-latitudes--evident in both the ground-based and satellite global =
temperature=20
records--its appearance has not been consistent with greenhouse theory, =
which=20
posits the greatest warming at the poles. (The Antarctic, in July 1997 =
and April=20
1998, posted record cold temperatures)=20
<P>One possible explanation--the focus of an annual scientific =
conference hosted=20
by NASA over the past several years--is the regional effect of =
commercial=20
airline traffic. Some studies, including one by S. Fred Singer, conclude =
that=20
thin cirrus clouds created by airline contrails create a regionally =
enhanced=20
greenhouse effect.&gt;&gt;
<P>----------------------------------------------------------------------=
----------------------------------------------------</P>
<P>I admit that is only two aspects looked at superficially&nbsp;viz, =
the effect=20
of clouds and the satellite measurements but these types of arguments =
are a=20
large part of&nbsp; what is quoted about Singer and his brood&nbsp; by =
the=20
climate change deniers as clear cut "evidence" that global warming is =
junk=20
science. Singer has&nbsp;rightly stated that increased clouds from =
increased=20
evaporation from&nbsp;ocean warming will reflect more incoming solar =
radiation=20
back to space by increasing the average albedo of&nbsp;Earth. Perhaps =
cloud=20
covered&nbsp;Venus should be a lot colder than it is! Perhaps he=20
has&nbsp;neglected to consider that water vapour (the transparent H2O =
gas that=20
is the "humidity" in the atmosphere) is also a potent&nbsp;greenhouse=20
gas&nbsp;and is present in all&nbsp;the gaps between clouds (clouds are=20
condensed water vapour), which are generally larger! He also seems to =
ignore the=20
fact that increased cloud cover provides a "blanket" at night as =
well&nbsp;that=20
reflects heat&nbsp;radiation back to Earth rather than allowing it to =
escape=20
back into&nbsp;space.&nbsp; He inadvertently&nbsp;partially acknowledges =
this by=20
his own theory (above) that high cirrus creates "a regionally enhanced=20
greenhouse effect" - that is, if he cast a critical eye over his own=20
output!&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>And again, in Singer's own words from =
1997</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"http://www.sepp.org/glwarm/satdata.html">http://www.sepp.org/glwa=
rm/satdata.html</A></FONT></P>
<P>&lt;&lt;And what about future warming? When all is said and done, we =
can=20
conclude there will be some warming as a result of the growth in =
atmospheric=20
greenhouse gases perhaps not more than 1 degree F by the year 2100, =
which would=20
be barely measurable and completely inconsequential.</P>
<P>But long before then, a few more years of satellite data will make it =
obvious=20
that global warming is a non-problem.&gt;&gt;</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>He concludes above that&nbsp;human =
induced warming is=20
a virtual certainty, but will not be a problem. The sub text here is=20
that&nbsp;Singer is claiming that he knows so much about climate science =
that he=20
knows exactly what will happen and how much and his predictions =
will&nbsp;come=20
to pass and that everything will be all right. The ancient Greeks would =
have=20
called this hubris. Nowadays, we say that "pride goeth before a fall". =
He may be=20
right, in which case, in 100 years, people will still&nbsp;be laughing =
at the=20
vast majority of&nbsp; current climatologists, environmentalists etc.He =
may be=20
wrong in his super certainty that he&nbsp;can predict the future - it =
may just=20
be that some itsy-bitsy butterfly's wing of a feedback effect =
may&nbsp;have been=20
overlooked by his allseeing eye and, rather than the relatively sedate=20
temperature rise&nbsp;predictions of the global warming scientists (some =
of whom=20
also suffer from the same type of hubris as Singer and his ilk), the=20
consequential possibility of a runaway feedback effect CANNOT be ruled =
out.=20
Recently there has been concern raised about undersea methane clathrates =
and the=20
thawing permafrost releasing methane...&nbsp;</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Nick =
Palmer</FONT></P></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C5C34F.FB30F6D0--


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 27 03:28:37 2005
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: RE: OT - Some of Fred Singer's greatest climate inconsistencies
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Nick, if you think modelling a planet is that easy maybe you should turn to
economics next... or the human brain... or computational pharmacology... or
traffic congestion.

 

Face it, GW is an unknown, it might be correct, it maybe incorrect. It might
be "natural" or it might be man-made.  

If it does exist and is natural our contribution is minimal.

  _____  

From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On
Behalf Of Nick Palmer
Sent: 27 September 2005 10:41
To: Vortex-L
Subject: OT - Some of Fred Singer's greatest climate inconsistencies

 

>From the Fred Singer link that Remi  posted:-
http://www.insightmag.com/media/paper441/news/2004/04/27/features/picture.pr
ofilesinger.cool.on.global.warming-658764.shtml
<http://www.insightmag.com/media/paper441/news/2004/04/27/features/picture.p
rofilesinger.cool.on.global.warming-658764.shtml> 

 

 

<<Q: What are some of the weak points about the global-warming argument?

A: The fact that they don't properly take into account the effects of clouds
in the atmosphere. Clouds will cool the climate rather than warm the
climate. When you try to warm the ocean, I argued - and the argument is
still sound - you evaporate more water and create more clouds and this
reduces the amount of solar radiation. What you have is a kind of negative
feedback which keeps the temperature from rising very much.>>

 

and also

 

 << I belong to the latter school, as I say, and what we do is analyze the
data. Just now we have a new result. It's been known for a long time that
the weather satellites do not show any warming, but the first group (global
warming advocates - NP) tends to neglect this information. They argue that
the weather satellites have only been around for 25 years and that's too
short a time to tell. It's a specious argument. Or they say there's
something wrong with the weather satellites, though they haven't been able
to show that there's anything at all wrong with them.

So now we find that not only the weather satellites but also weather
balloons, which measure temperature in a completely different way than the
satellites, give the same results as the satellites.

 

However a little digging revealed...

 

>From Singers own website http://www.sepp.org/controv/glaciers.html
<http://www.sepp.org/controv/glaciers.html> 

<<5. While there is some warming going on in northern mid-latitudes--evident
in both the ground-based and satellite global temperature records--its
appearance has not been consistent with greenhouse theory, which posits the
greatest warming at the poles. (The Antarctic, in July 1997 and April 1998,
posted record cold temperatures) 

One possible explanation--the focus of an annual scientific conference
hosted by NASA over the past several years--is the regional effect of
commercial airline traffic. Some studies, including one by S. Fred Singer,
conclude that thin cirrus clouds created by airline contrails create a
regionally enhanced greenhouse effect.>> 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------

I admit that is only two aspects looked at superficially viz, the effect of
clouds and the satellite measurements but these types of arguments are a
large part of  what is quoted about Singer and his brood  by the climate
change deniers as clear cut "evidence" that global warming is junk science.
Singer has rightly stated that increased clouds from increased evaporation
from ocean warming will reflect more incoming solar radiation back to space
by increasing the average albedo of Earth. Perhaps cloud covered Venus
should be a lot colder than it is! Perhaps he has neglected to consider that
water vapour (the transparent H2O gas that is the "humidity" in the
atmosphere) is also a potent greenhouse gas and is present in all the gaps
between clouds (clouds are condensed water vapour), which are generally
larger! He also seems to ignore the fact that increased cloud cover provides
a "blanket" at night as well that reflects heat radiation back to Earth
rather than allowing it to escape back into space.  He inadvertently
partially acknowledges this by his own theory (above) that high cirrus
creates "a regionally enhanced greenhouse effect" - that is, if he cast a
critical eye over his own output!    

And again, in Singer's own words from 1997

http://www.sepp.org/glwarm/satdata.html
<http://www.sepp.org/glwarm/satdata.html> 

<<And what about future warming? When all is said and done, we can conclude
there will be some warming as a result of the growth in atmospheric
greenhouse gases perhaps not more than 1 degree F by the year 2100, which
would be barely measurable and completely inconsequential.

But long before then, a few more years of satellite data will make it
obvious that global warming is a non-problem.>>

 

He concludes above that human induced warming is a virtual certainty, but
will not be a problem. The sub text here is that Singer is claiming that he
knows so much about climate science that he knows exactly what will happen
and how much and his predictions will come to pass and that everything will
be all right. The ancient Greeks would have called this hubris. Nowadays, we
say that "pride goeth before a fall". He may be right, in which case, in 100
years, people will still be laughing at the vast majority of  current
climatologists, environmentalists etc.He may be wrong in his super certainty
that he can predict the future - it may just be that some itsy-bitsy
butterfly's wing of a feedback effect may have been overlooked by his
allseeing eye and, rather than the relatively sedate temperature rise
predictions of the global warming scientists (some of whom also suffer from
the same type of hubris as Singer and his ilk), the consequential
possibility of a runaway feedback effect CANNOT be ruled out. Recently there
has been concern raised about undersea methane clathrates and the thawing
permafrost releasing methane... 

Nick Palmer


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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Nick, if you think modelling a =
planet is
that easy maybe you should turn to economics next&#8230; or the human =
brain&#8230;
or computational pharmacology&#8230; or traffic =
congestion.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>=


<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Face it, GW is an unknown, it =
might be
correct, it maybe incorrect. It might be &#8220;natural&#8221; or it =
might be
man-made. &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>If it does exist and is natural =
our
contribution is minimal.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</sp=
an></font></b><font
size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] =
<b><span
style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Nick Palmer<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> 27 September 2005 =
10:41<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> Vortex-L<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> OT - Some of =
Fred
Singer's greatest climate inconsistencies</span></font><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>From the Fred Singer link that Remi&nbsp; posted:- <a
href=3D"http://www.insightmag.com/media/paper441/news/2004/04/27/feature=
s/picture.profilesinger.cool.on.global.warming-658764.shtml">http://www.=
insightmag.com/media/paper441/news/2004/04/27/features/picture.profilesi=
nger.cool.on.global.warming-658764.shtml</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p=
>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><strong><b><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&lt;&lt;Q:</span></font></b></strong> What =
are some of
the weak points about the global-warming argument?<br>
<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>A:</span></b> The fact that they =
don't
properly take into account the effects of clouds in the atmosphere. =
Clouds will
cool the climate rather than warm the climate. When you try to warm the =
ocean,
I argued - and the argument is still sound - you evaporate more water =
and
create more clouds and this reduces the amount of solar radiation. What =
you
have is a kind of negative feedback which keeps the temperature from =
rising
very much.&gt;&gt;<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>and also</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>&nbsp;&lt;&lt; </span></font>I belong to the latter =
school,
as I say, and what we do is analyze the data. Just now we have a new =
result.
It's been known for a long time that the weather satellites do not show =
any
warming, but the first group (global warming advocates =
-&nbsp;NP)&nbsp;tends to
neglect this information. They argue that the weather satellites have =
only been
around for 25 years and that's too short a time to tell. It's a =
specious
argument. Or they say there's something wrong with the weather =
satellites,
though they haven't been able to show that there's anything at all =
wrong with
them.<br>
<br>
So now we find that not only the weather satellites but also weather =
balloons,
which measure temperature in a completely different way than the =
satellites,
give the same results as the satellites.<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>However a little digging =
revealed...</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>From Singers own website <a
href=3D"http://www.sepp.org/controv/glaciers.html">http://www.sepp.org/c=
ontrov/glaciers.html</a></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&lt;&lt;5.
While there is some warming going on in northern mid-latitudes--evident =
in both
the ground-based and satellite global temperature records--its =
appearance has
not been consistent with greenhouse theory, which posits the greatest =
warming
at the poles. (The Antarctic, in July 1997 and April 1998, posted =
record cold
temperatures) <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>One
possible explanation--the focus of an annual scientific conference =
hosted by
NASA over the past several years--is the regional effect of commercial =
airline
traffic. Some studies, including one by S. Fred Singer, conclude that =
thin
cirrus clouds created by airline contrails create a regionally enhanced
greenhouse effect.&gt;&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>---------------------------------------------=
------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>I admit
that is only two aspects looked at superficially&nbsp;viz, the effect =
of clouds
and the satellite measurements but these types of arguments are a large =
part
of&nbsp; what is quoted about Singer and his brood&nbsp; by the climate =
change
deniers as clear cut &quot;evidence&quot; that global warming is junk =
science.
Singer has&nbsp;rightly stated that increased clouds from increased =
evaporation
from&nbsp;ocean warming will reflect more incoming solar radiation back =
to
space by increasing the average albedo of&nbsp;Earth. Perhaps cloud
covered&nbsp;Venus should be a lot colder than it is! Perhaps he
has&nbsp;neglected to consider that water vapour (the transparent H2O =
gas that
is the &quot;humidity&quot; in the atmosphere) is also a =
potent&nbsp;greenhouse
gas&nbsp;and is present in all&nbsp;the gaps between clouds (clouds are
condensed water vapour), which are generally larger! He also seems to =
ignore
the fact that increased cloud cover provides a &quot;blanket&quot; at =
night as
well&nbsp;that reflects heat&nbsp;radiation back to Earth rather than =
allowing
it to escape back into&nbsp;space.&nbsp; He =
inadvertently&nbsp;partially
acknowledges this by his own theory (above) that high cirrus creates =
&quot;a
regionally enhanced greenhouse effect&quot; - that is, if he cast a =
critical
eye over his own =
output!&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>And
again, in Singer's own words from 1997</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><a
href=3D"http://www.sepp.org/glwarm/satdata.html">http://www.sepp.org/glw=
arm/satdata.html</a></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&lt;&lt;And
what about future warming? When all is said and done, we can conclude =
there
will be some warming as a result of the growth in atmospheric =
greenhouse gases
perhaps not more than 1 degree F by the year 2100, which would be =
barely
measurable and completely inconsequential.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>But long
before then, a few more years of satellite data will make it obvious =
that
global warming is a non-problem.&gt;&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>He
concludes above that&nbsp;human induced warming is a virtual certainty, =
but
will not be a problem. The sub text here is that&nbsp;Singer is =
claiming that
he knows so much about climate science that he knows exactly what will =
happen
and how much and his predictions will&nbsp;come to pass and that =
everything
will be all right. The ancient Greeks would have called this hubris. =
Nowadays,
we say that &quot;pride goeth before a fall&quot;. He may be right, in =
which
case, in 100 years, people will still&nbsp;be laughing at the vast =
majority
of&nbsp; current climatologists, environmentalists etc.He may be wrong =
in his
super certainty that he&nbsp;can predict the future - it may just be =
that some
itsy-bitsy butterfly's wing of a feedback effect may&nbsp;have been =
overlooked
by his allseeing eye and, rather than the relatively sedate temperature
rise&nbsp;predictions of the global warming scientists (some of whom =
also
suffer from the same type of hubris as Singer and his ilk), the =
consequential
possibility of a runaway feedback effect CANNOT be ruled out. Recently =
there
has been concern raised about undersea methane clathrates and the =
thawing
permafrost releasing methane...&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Nick
Palmer</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

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Thought I'd share this one with you: "To coo at babies or not to coo".

 

Cooing should be a thing of the past because these are little people 


Debbie Lawson, neo-natal manager

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_yorkshire/4284522.stm
<http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_yorkshire/4284522.stm> 

 

The infection control is totally logical in a hospital though.

 

.......................................

Website

http://luna.bton.ac.uk/~roc1

.......................................

 


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<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
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not to
coo&quot;.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
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src=3D"cid:image001.gif 01C5C357.9A822A40" border=3D0><b><span
style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Cooing should be a thing of the past because =
these are
little people </span></b></span></font><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shapetype =
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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D1 color=3Dblack face=3DVerdana><span
style=3D'font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'>Debbie =
Lawson,
neo-natal manager<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><a =
href=3D"http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_yorkshire/4284522.stm">h=
ttp://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_yorkshire/4284522.stm</a><o:p></o=
:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>The infection control is totally logical in a hospital =
though.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&=
#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>Website<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>http://luna.bton.ac.uk/~roc1<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&=
#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
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From: RC Macaulay
Subject: Cheap and dirty generator


Ocean tidal action is a source of energy that has not been exploited to it's
potential.

MC: But it has been exploited in France and Nova Scotia, and there are
proposals for tidal power at the Bay of Fundy. There are a number of designs
ourlined at http://reslab.com.au/resfiles/tidal/text.html. Like other
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There is long experience in hydroelectric dams and the designer has some
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Mike Carrell



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<<Nick, if you think modelling a planet is that easy maybe you should =
turn to economics next. or the human brain. or computational =
pharmacology. or traffic congestion.

Face it, GW is an unknown>>

 Hoorah! That is exactly my point. The unknown outcome demands that no =
risks be taken. Those who claim to know that the risks will be =
negligible are those aforementioned strong words I am fed up of typing.

BTW, I agree with you on that baby cooing story - utter madness!

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<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&lt;&lt;Nick, =
if you=20
think modelling a planet is that easy maybe you should turn to economics =
next=85=20
or the human brain=85 or computational pharmacology=85 or traffic=20
congestion.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN=20
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face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Face it, GW =
is an=20
unknown&gt;&gt;</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;Hoorah! =
That is=20
exactly my point. The unknown outcome demands that no risks be taken. =
Those who=20
claim to know that the risks will be negligible are those aforementioned =
strong=20
words I am fed up of typing.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN=20
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With the price of gasoline going through the roof,with  coal at $40.00/ton it
is conceivable that an on-board water gas generator using a methanol-water-coal-
slurry bought at the gas pump might be worthwhile.
Same argument for a coal-fuel oil slurry for reducing home heating costs.

This fast-loading 82 page pdf from NREL gives lots of info on how to do it..

http://www.ieahia.org/pdfs/hydrogen_biomass.pdf

Frederick
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<P>
<DIV>With the price of gasoline going through the roof,with &nbsp;coal at $40.00/ton it</DIV>
<DIV>is conceivable that an on-board water gas generator using a methanol-water-coal-</DIV>
<DIV>slurry bought at the gas pump might be worthwhile.</DIV>
<DIV>Same argument for a coal-fuel oil slurry for reducing home heating costs.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>This fast-loading 82 page pdf from NREL gives lots of info on how to do it..</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://www.ieahia.org/pdfs/hydrogen_biomass.pdf">http://www.ieahia.org/pdfs/hydrogen_biomass.pdf</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Frederick</DIV></BODY></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 27 05:42:10 2005
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Are Charge Clusters the Answer to Free Energy?
Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 22:40:17 +1000
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Zell, Chris's message of Mon, 26 Sep 2005 11:56:29
-0500:
Hi,
[snip]
>I recently came across :
>
>www.padrak.com/ine/FB97_1.html
>
>It's an article called "High density Charge Clusters and Energy
>Conversion Results"
>
>It argues that electron charge clusters - together with associated
>positive ions - are powerful enough to breech the Coulomb barrier and
>produce nuclear reactions.
>
>If this is true, it would explain an enormous amount of anomalous
>observations across many years,  such as claims of transmutation in high
>amp discharges,
>and a great deal of cold fusion claims.
>
>Could this be true?  If so,  it opens a convenient route to manipulate
>the energies of a nucleus using inexpensive equipment, such as Naudin's
>"VSG"
>Experiments.

Even if it is, there is a small fly in the ointment. In order to
use this as an accelerator based fusion mechanism,  the beam needs
to hit a stationary target, which implies that the kinetic energy
of the charge cluster is going to get converted to heat. Given the
purported density of positive nuclei embedded in the cluster, the
fusion energy is likely to be in the same ballpark as the total
kinetic energy of the cluster, which means it may well take very
careful engineering to achieve break even, or it may be > break
even by a factor 10. Only R&D will tell.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

In a town full of candlestick makers, 
everyone lives in the light,
In a town full of thieves, 
there is only one candle, 
and everyone lives in the night.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 27 05:50:02 2005
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From: "John Steck" <johnsteck tetrahelix.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Coal Car?
Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 07:48:04 -0500
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Nice paper... thanks for posting that URL.
-john
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net]=20
Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2005 6:34 AM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Coal Car?




With the price of gasoline going through the roof,with  coal at =
$40.00/ton
it
is conceivable that an on-board water gas generator using a
methanol-water-coal-
slurry bought at the gas pump might be worthwhile.
Same argument for a coal-fuel oil slurry for reducing home heating =
costs.
=20
This fast-loading 82 page pdf from NREL gives lots of info on how to do =
it..
=20
http://www.ieahia.org/pdfs/hydrogen_biomass.pdf
=20
Frederick

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<DIV><SPAN class=3D997274712-27092005><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff>Nice paper...=20
thanks for posting that URL.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D997274712-27092005><FONT face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff>-john</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D997274712-27092005></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft><FONT=20
face=3DTahoma>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Frederick =
Sparber=20
[mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, September 27, =
2005=20
6:34 AM<BR><B>To:</B> vortex-l eskimo.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: Coal=20
Car?<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<P>
<DIV>With the price of gasoline going through the roof,with &nbsp;coal =
at=20
$40.00/ton it</DIV>
<DIV>is conceivable that an on-board water gas generator using a=20
methanol-water-coal-</DIV>
<DIV>slurry bought at the gas pump might be worthwhile.</DIV>
<DIV>Same argument for a coal-fuel oil slurry for reducing home heating=20
costs.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>This fast-loading 82 page pdf from NREL gives lots of info on how =
to do=20
it..</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A=20
href=3D"http://www.ieahia.org/pdfs/hydrogen_biomass.pdf">http://www.ieahi=
a.org/pdfs/hydrogen_biomass.pdf</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Frederick</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 27 06:10:42 2005
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From: "Alex Caliostro" <caliostro1795 hotmail.com>
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Subject: RE: Models
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>From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk

>A similar dilemma arises with models concerning global warming, although
>the scale of the crisis is global and the time frame is decades rather than
>days.

well, some people agree with you as is indicated in this article

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/hurricanes_09-23-05.html

there was another brit named william of ockham who told us not to multiply 
entites -- now doesnt it take fewer entities to assume a cyclic weather 
event than oh my god we're all going to die in an overheated world disaster

_____
-alex

_________________________________________________________________
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 27 06:53:56 2005
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R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk wrote:

>What Jed and Nick
>seem to think is that "global warming" is an absolute already proven.

That is FALSE! I have repeatedly said I am not sure, it is not certain, 
many experts disagree, etc., etc. Surely you noticed I said that. Please do 
not exaggerate or misrepresent my views. That is very annoying, and it 
violates the spirit of this discussion group.

I have also said that nearly all of the steps needed to combat global 
warming (should it prove real) would be beneficial in their own right, and 
that steps such as sequestering carbon -- which have no other benefits -- 
should be avoided or moved to the bottom of the list. I do not see how 
anyone can argue with that, and I do not think that you have addressed that 
issue, or the other point I raised.

- Jed


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Alex Caliostro wrote:

>there was another brit named william of ockham who told us not to multiply 
>entites -- now doesnt it take fewer entities to assume a cyclic weather 
>event than oh my god we're all going to die in an overheated world disaster

Some experts believe that the weather cycle alone is not sufficient to 
explain the increased energy released from hurricanes, so entities must be 
multiplied.

- Jed


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>From: Jed Rothwell

>Some experts believe that the weather cycle alone is not sufficient to 
>explain the increased energy released from hurricanes, so entities must be 
>multiplied.

there is no consensus so it is premature to multiply entities

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N26151655.htm

there have been years with more hurricanes, there have been stronger 
hurricanes, and there have been years with more stronger hurricanes

http://www.usatoday.com/weather/whcat5.htm

but i agree with your previous assertion - those things which ameliorate co2 
emissions are good things -- unless you make your own food and dont move 
around <g>

we must move cautiously as economies are already fragile -- kyoto was not 
baby steps

_____
-alex

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Alex Caliostro wrote:

>>Some experts believe that the weather cycle alone is not sufficient to 
>>explain the increased energy released from hurricanes, so entities must 
>>be multiplied.
>
>there is no consensus so it is premature to multiply entities

As far as I know, most experts believe in global warming, so a consensus 
has emerged. But this is not relevant to the discussion. The experts who 
believe the weather cycle alone cannot explain the facts are the ones who 
would multiply entities. Obviously, the minority of experts who disagree 
would *not* multiply entities. If a full consensus emerges it will settle 
the issue one way or the other to everyone's satisfaction: entities / no 
entities, but that does not change the fact that at present some believe we 
have an unanswered problem that requires more parameters (entities).


>there have been years with more hurricanes, there have been stronger 
>hurricanes, and there have been years with more stronger hurricanes

Yes, of course. Anyone can see that the data is noisy. It is the overall 
upward trend that bothers some experts, not specific data from one year or 
one hurricane.


>we must move cautiously as economies are already fragile -- kyoto was not 
>baby steps

I reject the "fragile economy" argument. I think that shifting over to the 
production of hundreds of millions of plug-in hybrid cars would be 
beneficial, because it would save money and eliminate the need to import 
oil into the U.S. Large-scale production of wind turbines and Concentrated 
Solar Power (CSP) would also save money in the long term, by reducing the 
consumption and cost of fuel, and the burden of pollution. Wind turbines 
costs about the same as coal per kilowatt hour, but they requires more 
skilled, high-paid labor, which is usually good for the economy. I advocate 
substituting skilled labor and clever engineering for the brute force 
approach (coal mining).

- Jed


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I wrote:

>Whoa! $8,900 for 2.3 kWh/day?!? That's 100 watts average power (over 24 
>hours), or $89,000 per kilowatt of generator capacity. That's insane. Is 
>that correct?
. . .

>I believe the Japanese PV program makes more sense.

I am still not sure about this, but as far as I can tell most rooftop PV 
installations in Japan do not include batteries, so they are much cheaper 
than this $8,900 installation. They are not stand-alone systems. It seems 
most of them use reverse metering when the electricity is not needed at the 
house. No doubt they have safety features to prevent shocking electric 
power company workers.

PV installations in Japan are becoming very common, as I mentioned a few 
months ago. ~70,000 houses are equipped with them, and the cost has fallen 
so much that subsidies have been almost completely phased out. The average 
installed cost has fallen 69% since 1994. See p. 9 here:

http://www.southeastgreenpower.net/2005/presentations/ChrisOBrien.pdf

- Jed


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See:

http://www.nrel.gov/ncpv_prm/pdfs/papers/64.pdf

This paper describes incremental improvements at a PV production factory. I 
have not read any Japanese documents, but I expect it was steps like these 
that reduced the cost of PVs in Japan by 69% over the last 10 years. 
Incremental improvements, rather than dramatic breakthroughs, have 
generated most of the progress in integrated circuits and hard disks.

One of the biggest problems with PVs has been the embodied energy in the 
silicon. By some estimates, it takes 10 years of PV operation to make up 
for this. However, this problem has been addressed in recent years by two 
methods: 1. Reducing the amount of silicon needed per cell, and 2. 
Recycling silicon from used PVs. (Recycling silicon takes less energy than 
making virgin material. That is not always the case with other materials.)

- Jed


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Subject: Re: OT - Some of Fred Singer's greatest climate inconsistencies
Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 10:58:36 -0400
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From: Nick Palmer
Subject: Re: OT - Some of Fred Singer's greatest climate inconsistencies


<<Nick, if you think modelling a planet is that easy maybe you should turn
to economics next. or the human brain. or computational pharmacology. or
traffic congestion.

Face it, GW is an unknown

 Hoorah! That is exactly my point. The unknown outcome demands that no risks
be taken. Those who claim to know that the risks will be negligible are
those aforementioned strong words I am fed up of typing.
---------------------------------------
"The unknown outcome demands that no risks be taken."

Here, unfortunately is the invitation to the greatest of all risks, the
demand for perfect safety, a utopia, the mountain peak whose slippery slopes
lead to a variety of dictatorships [take your choice].

Shall there be a Green Emperor who will dictate public and private policy
and send us all back to the 1800s, with one billion world population? Are
the environmentalist movement leaders free of the lust for power while
excoriating the "oil barons"?

Nick may have overlooked my posts pointing to a Scientific American cover
story to the effect that human agricultrual activity has produced a warming
trend which has offset other forces that would now have us in a profound
cooling trend -- but of course with the industrial revolution, we have
overdone it.

If the climate models still cannot accurately model clouds *and their
formation*, they are useless as a basis for public policy, for a cloud can
increase or decrease the "warming" effect depending on its composition.
Warming effects are in motion, but what public policy will alter that
without drastic societal effects is very unclear.

India and China are on track to follow the developed nations in fuel usage.
How will Nick exert control over those countries?

Unfortunately, it is Nature who will have the last say, and Man who will
adapt.

Mike Carrell






BTW, I agree with you on that baby cooing story - utter madness!



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Subject: Re: Trendy fashionable madness
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> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
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Adults need cooing too.

Harry

R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk wrote:

Thought I'd share this one with you: "To coo at babies or not to coo".

 

Cooing should be a thing of the past because these are little people

Debbie Lawson, neo-natal manager

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_yorkshire/4284522.stm

 

The infection control is totally logical in a hospital though.



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Adults need cooing too.<BR>
<BR>
Harry<BR>
<BR>
R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk wrote:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE><FONT SIZE="2"><FONT FACE="Courier New">Thought I'd share this one with you: &quot;To coo at babies or not to coo&quot;.</FONT></FONT> <BR>
<BR>
<FONT SIZE="2"><FONT FACE="Courier New"> <BR>
</FONT></FONT><BR>
<FONT SIZE="1"><FONT FACE="Verdana"><B>Cooing should be a thing of the past because these are little people <BR>
</B></FONT></FONT><BR>
<FONT SIZE="1"><FONT FACE="Verdana">Debbie Lawson, neo-natal manager</FONT></FONT> <BR>
<BR>
<FONT SIZE="2"><FONT FACE="Courier New"> <BR>
</FONT></FONT><BR>
<FONT SIZE="2"><FONT FACE="Courier New">http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_yorkshire/4284522.stm</FONT></FONT> <BR>
<BR>
<FONT SIZE="2"><FONT FACE="Courier New"> <BR>
</FONT></FONT><BR>
<FONT SIZE="2"><FONT FACE="Courier New">The infection control is totally logical in a hospital though.</FONT></FONT> <BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</BODY>
</HTML>


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Subject: Re: OT - Some of Fred Singer's greatest climate inconsistencies
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Nick Palmer wrote:

The unknown outcome demands that no risks be taken.




Risks are a fact of life.  It is a question of  which risks should be taken
and how the costs and the potential benefits will be distributed.

Harry



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Nick Palmer wrote:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE><FONT SIZE="2"><FONT FACE="Arial">The unknown outcome demands that no risks be taken. <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE="Arial">Risks are a fact of life. &nbsp;It is a question of &nbsp;which risks should be taken<BR>
and how the costs and the potential benefits will be distributed.<BR>
<BR>
Harry<BR>
</FONT><BR>
</BODY>
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sigh...
 its a WARM front above, where all the air has moved. its a dual layer
issue.

 On 9/26/05, Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au> wrote:
>
> In reply to leaking pen's message of Mon, 26 Sep 2005 21:13:25
> -0700:
> Hi,
> [snip]
> >its a cold front on teh ground.
>
> As opposed to??
>
> >
> >On 9/26/05, Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> if hot air rises, and thereby creates a low pressure region, then
> >> why are low pressure regions always accompanied by cold fronts
> >> rather than warm fronts?
> Regards,
>
> Robin van Spaandonk
>
> In a town full of candlestick makers,
> everyone lives in the light,
> In a town full of thieves,
> there is only one candle,
> and everyone lives in the night.
>
>


--
"Monsieur l'abb=E9, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to ma=
ke
it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire

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<div>sigh...</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>its a WARM front above, where all the air has moved.&nbsp; its a dual =
layer issue.<br><br>&nbsp;</div>
<div><span class=3D"gmail_quote">On 9/26/05, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">=
Robin van Spaandonk</b> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rvanspaa bigpond.net.au">rvan=
spaa bigpond.net.au</a>&gt; wrote:</span>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">In reply to&nbsp;&nbsp;leaking p=
en's message of Mon, 26 Sep 2005 21:13:25<br>-0700:<br>Hi,<br>[snip]<br>&gt=
;its a cold front on teh ground.
<br><br>As opposed to??<br><br>&gt;<br>&gt;On 9/26/05, Robin van Spaandonk =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rvanspaa bigpond.net.au">rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au</a>&=
gt; wrote:<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; Hi,<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; if hot air r=
ises, and thereby creates a low pressure region, then
<br>&gt;&gt; why are low pressure regions always accompanied by cold fronts=
<br>&gt;&gt; rather than warm fronts?<br>Regards,<br><br>Robin van Spaandon=
k<br><br>In a town full of candlestick makers,<br>everyone lives in the lig=
ht,
<br>In a town full of thieves,<br>there is only one candle,<br>and everyone=
 lives in the night.<br><br></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>--=
 <br>&quot;Monsieur l'abb=E9, I detest what you write, but I would give my =
life to make it possible for you to continue to write&quot;&nbsp;&nbsp;Volt=
aire=20

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>From: Jed Rothwell

>As far as I know, most experts believe in global warming, so a consensus 
>has emerged. But this is not relevant to the discussion. The experts who 
>believe the weather cycle alone cannot explain the facts are the ones who 
>would multiply entities. Obviously, the minority of experts who disagree 
>would *not* multiply entities. If a full consensus emerges it will settle 
>the issue one way or the other to everyone's satisfaction: entities / no 
>entities, but that does not change the fact that at present some believe we 
>have an unanswered problem that requires more parameters (entities).

i suppose that is just the point - if you read both the science and nature 
articles you find that each discuss 'correlation'  --  they claim a 
correlation between a one degree temperature rise in the oceans and 
increased storm intensity  --  now everyone says this is global warming but 
that conclusion is NOT science

yes we have seen higher energy storms that *might* be caused by the 
temperature rise that *might* be caused by higher co2 levels  --  it might 
also be caused by the excessive sunspot activity in recent times  --  after 
all we are supposed to be in a solar minimum but we had some significant 
solar flares just prior to these hurricanes

theres certainly a long term correlation between the sun and weather but 
there is also the short term issue for which, again, all experts do not 
concur

http://www.agu.org/revgeophys/reid00/reid00.html

_____
-alex

_________________________________________________________________
FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now! 
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Mike Carrell wrote:

>Here, unfortunately is the invitation to the greatest of all risks, the
>demand for perfect safety, a utopia, the mountain peak whose slippery slopes
>lead to a variety of dictatorships [take your choice].
>
>Shall there be a Green Emperor who will dictate public and private policy
>and send us all back to the 1800s, with one billion world population?

Of course not, and no one here has suggested such a thing. This is indeed a 
"slippery slope," but it is the logical fallacy of that name. That is, it 
is taking the opponent's argument to a ridiculous and uncalled for extreme. 
See:

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/slippery-slope.html

We can address the problem without taking such drastic steps.


>Are the environmentalist movement leaders free of the lust for power while 
>excoriating the "oil barons"?

Some may be but we are not.


>If the climate models still cannot accurately model clouds *and their
>formation* . . .

I doubt the models are as bad as this. I am sure they can model clouds to 
some extent.


>India and China are on track to follow the developed nations in fuel usage.
>How will Nick exert control over those countries?

No one needs to exert control over them to solve this problem. What we need 
to do is to invent new technology that solves the problem, and then sell it 
to them. This is already happening on a small scale. Wind power is growing 
rapidly in India.

- Jed


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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: "The Grip of Gas"
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Here is an incisive analysis of the economics of gasoline:

http://slate.msn.com/id/2126981/

And another:

"Go Ahead and Drive Less, if You Can"

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/25/weekinreview/25hakim.html

The other day I complained about economists who still say demand for oil is 
"inelastic." The 1970s oil crisis proved that is not true. However, as 
these two articles show, short-term demand is inelastic compared to other 
commodities. There are some easy steps that people could take to reduce 
consumption, such as leaving the SUV home and driving the car. After that, 
it would take about five years for major changes to work through the system.

- Jed


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Because as the hot air rises the cold air rushes in to
fill the low pressure region left behind.

A high-pressure system is the result of the warm air
not being able to rise and so it pushes the cold air
in front of it making a warm front.

--- Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> if hot air rises, and thereby creates a low pressure
> region, then
> why are low pressure regions always accompanied by
> cold fronts
> rather than warm fronts?
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Robin van Spaandonk
> 
> In a town full of candlestick makers, 
> everyone lives in the light,
> In a town full of thieves, 
> there is only one candle, 
> and everyone lives in the night.
> 
> 


Merlyn
Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
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thats what I said...

On 9/27/05, Merlyn <merlyn_3k yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Because as the hot air rises the cold air rushes in to
> fill the low pressure region left behind.
>
> A high-pressure system is the result of the warm air
> not being able to rise and so it pushes the cold air
> in front of it making a warm front.
>
> --- Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > if hot air rises, and thereby creates a low pressure
> > region, then
> > why are low pressure regions always accompanied by
> > cold fronts
> > rather than warm fronts?
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Robin van Spaandonk
> >
> > In a town full of candlestick makers,
> > everyone lives in the light,
> > In a town full of thieves,
> > there is only one candle,
> > and everyone lives in the night.
> >
> >
>
>
> Merlyn
> Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>


--
"Monsieur l'abb=E9, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to ma=
ke
it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire

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thats what I said...<br><br>
<div><span class=3D"gmail_quote">On 9/27/05, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">=
Merlyn</b> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:merlyn_3k yahoo.com">merlyn_3k@yahoo.com</=
a>&gt; wrote:</span>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">Because as the hot air rises the=
 cold air rushes in to<br>fill the low pressure region left behind.<br><br>
A high-pressure system is the result of the warm air<br>not being able to r=
ise and so it pushes the cold air<br>in front of it making a warm front.<br=
><br>--- Robin van Spaandonk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rvanspaa bigpond.net.au"=
>
rvanspaa bigpond.net.au</a>&gt;<br>wrote:<br><br>&gt; Hi,<br>&gt;<br>&gt; i=
f hot air rises, and thereby creates a low pressure<br>&gt; region, then<br=
>&gt; why are low pressure regions always accompanied by<br>&gt; cold front=
s
<br>&gt; rather than warm fronts?<br>&gt;<br>&gt; Regards,<br>&gt;<br>&gt; =
Robin van Spaandonk<br>&gt;<br>&gt; In a town full of candlestick makers,<b=
r>&gt; everyone lives in the light,<br>&gt; In a town full of thieves,<br>
&gt; there is only one candle,<br>&gt; and everyone lives in the night.<br>=
&gt;<br>&gt;<br><br><br>Merlyn<br>Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysi=
cist<br><br>__________________________________________________<br>Do You Ya=
hoo!?
<br>Tired of spam?&nbsp;&nbsp;Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection arou=
nd<br><a href=3D"http://mail.yahoo.com">http://mail.yahoo.com</a><br><br></=
blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br>&quot;Monsieur l'abb=E9, =
I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for y=
ou to continue to write&quot;&nbsp;&nbsp;Voltaire=20

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Jed wrote:


> The other day I complained about economists who still say demand for oil is 
> "inelastic." The 1970s oil crisis proved that is not true. However, as 
> these two articles show, short-term demand is inelastic compared to other 
> commodities. There are some easy steps that people could take to reduce 
> consumption, such as leaving the SUV home and driving the car. After that, 
> it would take about five years for major changes to work through the system.

I have  a number of personal observations that seem to illuminate what you
are talking about.  I noticed that the general level of traffic in the Los Angeles
area dropped off rather dramatically when the price of gasoline exceeded
about $2.50/gal.  The traffic level seemed to recover  about two weeks after
that.  When the price exceeded $3.00, there seem to be only a slight drop in
traffic, but a lot of whining and carping about it.

My employe parking lot also told an interesting story.  Those employes with
gigantic SUVs and trucks, were borrowing what I assume was their spouse's
smaller vehicle as gas went over $3.00/gal.  Then, within a week or two the
leviathan SUVs and trucks began to reappear.  I guess once they become used
to the prices, it has practically no effect on behavior.

I read somewhere that taking into consideration inflation, average family income, and average gas mileage of existing vehicles, gasoline would have to 
be $3.40 per gallon to equal the prices in the 1980s.  Although I'm not
sure if that's true, actual behavior seem to reinforce the idea.

M.



_______________________________________________
Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
The most personalized portal on the Web!


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Michael Foster wrote:

>I have  a number of personal observations that seem to illuminate what you
>are talking about.  I noticed that the general level of traffic in the Los 
>Angeles
>area dropped off rather dramatically when the price of gasoline exceeded
>about $2.50/gal. . . .

Yes, there is anecdotal evidence like that coming in from all over. And it 
is not merely an impression. Actual consumption dropped from 9.4 million 
gallons to 8.8 million gallons. (See the N. Y. Times article I referenced.)

Some other straws in the wind: An Atlanta GM car dealership recently had 
the compact cars moved out in front of the lot with large, handmade signs 
saying "30 MPG!" Toyota is bombarding cable channels with advertisements 
featuring their high MPG models, including the Prius, again with big 
letters announcing "35 MPG" and "60 MPG" (way ahead of GM). These are 
cheesy advertisements that look like they were ginned up in a hurry, with a 
soundtrack of children cheering in the background.


>The traffic level seemed to recover  about two weeks after that.

Unfortunately, consumers may get used to these prices and go back to their 
old habits. This will do nothing to solve the problem, and it will suck a 
great discretionary income out of the economy. It works like the parable of 
the frog in hot water (water that is gradually heated). PLEASE NOTE that is 
merely a parable, no more true than Aesop's fables about talking foxes. A 
real frog will jump out of the pot as soon as the water becomes 
uncomfortably warm. People, on the other hand . . .

I hate to see the public suffer, especially poor people who have to commute 
to work in old gas guzzlers, but for the good of the country and the 
environment I wish the government would impose a tax to raise the price to 
$4 per gallon permanently. The tax would increase to $1.50 if the base 
price falls to $2.50. I wish the leaders would tell the citizens that oil 
is running out, and it is time to make sacrifices and make changes. Plus it 
should say we can solve this problem with new technology such as plug-in 
hybrids, we do not have to wait 40 years for hydrogen cars.

Even the oil company advertisements now say that we are extracting oil 
twice as fast as we are finding new reserves, and I think they are lying. 
As others have pointed out here, OPEC members and major oil companies are 
probably exaggerating reserves by a large margin. OPEC members do this so 
that OPEC will give them a larger market allocation, and oil companies do 
it to prop up their stock prices. There have been no substantial 
discoveries of oil in the lower 48 states since the 1930s, and there never 
will be. There is no more oil waiting to be found anywhere on earth. Of 
course improved extraction techniques will stretch out supplies.

- Jed


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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
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Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 07:47:56 +1000
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In reply to  leaking pen's message of Tue, 27 Sep 2005 10:22:23
-0700:
Hi,
[snip]
>sigh...
> its a WARM front above, where all the air has moved. its a dual layer
>issue.
[snip]
All you are saying here is that the approaching cold front pushes
the warm air out of the way. 
That's true, what you appear to miss is that the cold front has a
*low* pressure region behind it, and the warm air that is being
pushed away resides in a *high* pressure region. This is the way
it is in reality, and is also a direct contradiction of the
current consensus on the creation of high and low pressure
systems.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

In a town full of candlestick makers, 
everyone lives in the light,
In a town full of thieves, 
there is only one candle, 
and everyone lives in the night.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 27 14:55:45 2005
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: deceptively simple question
Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 07:54:54 +1000
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In reply to  Merlyn's message of Tue, 27 Sep 2005 13:54:11 -0700
(PDT):
Hi,
[snip]
>Because as the hot air rises the cold air rushes in to
>fill the low pressure region left behind.

...but low pressure regions are cold, not warm (at least in my
part of the world). IOW *first* comes the cold front, *followed*
by the low pressure region.

>
>A high-pressure system is the result of the warm air
>not being able to rise and so it pushes the cold air
>in front of it making a warm front.

...and how exactly is warm air prevented from rising ?

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

In a town full of candlestick makers, 
everyone lives in the light,
In a town full of thieves, 
there is only one candle, 
and everyone lives in the night.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 27 15:20:03 2005
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yes, but i was trying not to CONFUSE the poor dear with extra information.

On 9/27/05, Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au> wrote:
>
> In reply to leaking pen's message of Tue, 27 Sep 2005 10:22:23
> -0700:
> Hi,
> [snip]
> >sigh...
> > its a WARM front above, where all the air has moved. its a dual layer
> >issue.
> [snip]
> All you are saying here is that the approaching cold front pushes
> the warm air out of the way.
> That's true, what you appear to miss is that the cold front has a
> *low* pressure region behind it, and the warm air that is being
> pushed away resides in a *high* pressure region. This is the way
> it is in reality, and is also a direct contradiction of the
> current consensus on the creation of high and low pressure
> systems.
>
> Regards,
>
> Robin van Spaandonk
>
> In a town full of candlestick makers,
> everyone lives in the light,
> In a town full of thieves,
> there is only one candle,
> and everyone lives in the night.
>
>


--
"Monsieur l'abb=E9, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to ma=
ke
it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire

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yes, but i was trying not to CONFUSE the poor dear with extra information.<=
br><br>
<div><span class=3D"gmail_quote">On 9/27/05, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">=
Robin van Spaandonk</b> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rvanspaa bigpond.net.au">rvan=
spaa bigpond.net.au</a>&gt; wrote:</span>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">In reply to&nbsp;&nbsp;leaking p=
en's message of Tue, 27 Sep 2005 10:22:23<br>-0700:<br>Hi,<br>[snip]<br>&gt=
;sigh...<br>
&gt; its a WARM front above, where all the air has moved. its a dual layer<=
br>&gt;issue.<br>[snip]<br>All you are saying here is that the approaching =
cold front pushes<br>the warm air out of the way.<br>That's true, what you =
appear to miss is that the cold front has a
<br>*low* pressure region behind it, and the warm air that is being<br>push=
ed away resides in a *high* pressure region. This is the way<br>it is in re=
ality, and is also a direct contradiction of the<br>current consensus on th=
e creation of high and low pressure
<br>systems.<br><br>Regards,<br><br>Robin van Spaandonk<br><br>In a town fu=
ll of candlestick makers,<br>everyone lives in the light,<br>In a town full=
 of thieves,<br>there is only one candle,<br>and everyone lives in the nigh=
t.
<br><br></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br>&quot;Monsieur =
l'abb=E9, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it poss=
ible for you to continue to write&quot;&nbsp;&nbsp;Voltaire=20

------=_Part_6203_20976025.1127859547402--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 27 16:38:46 2005
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Subject: RE: deceptively simple question
Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 18:37:32 -0500
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> A high-pressure system is the result of the warm air
> not being able to rise and so it pushes the cold air
> in front of it making a warm front.

It's a bit different than that. Cold air drifts outward from the pole and
settles downward as cold, dry, air, pushing outward. Warm, moist, air is
pushed upward ahead of the advancing cold air. As the air rises, it
condenses, which releases heat, and pulls the air up even farther, creating
a low pressure area along the frontal boundary.

Additionally, when the cold air pushes toward the jet-stream, such low
pressure at the frontal boundary can be exagerated by the low pressure
above, from the jet stream, creating a low pressure center which will follow
the jet stream, trailing a cold front and a warm front outward from it.

Craig Haynie (Houston)


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Steven Krivit wrote:

 > Gennulmuns,
 >
 > I'm not following this thread to closely, but a reporter sent this
 > to me the other day. Seems to be some parallel.
 >
 > FYI:
 >
 > At 06:17 AM 9/19/2005, you wrote:
 >
 >> http://www.privatepower.ca/101/privatepower/index.htm
 >>
 >> The above is a link ...
 >

WHOOPS!  The above web site is fraudulant, almost surely!  Dig this quote
from the front page:

 > When the world sees this fabulous unit and listens to how up to 100%
 > of the world's greenhouse gases can be eliminated when one of these
 > units is added ...

They're adding a "small, fractional" amount of hydrogen to a mix
of hydrocarbons and air.  When the hydrocarbons which remain in
the mix burn they've got to produce some CO2.  So, it's flatly impossible
for this device to eliminate "100% of the ... greenhouse gasses" even
from a single engine, let alone eliminating them from all the world.

With a bogus claim like that being made right up front I think we can
safely ignore everything else they have to say.

 >> I discovered after an article ran in our local daily newspaper on
 >> Saturday. The article was buried, but basically stated it's an
 >> invention you attach to your car and it produces hydrogen which is
 >> fed into your car engine - sounds familiar.
 >>
 >> According to the inventor,

Whom, as we have already seen, above, is either a liar or a fool...

 >> the Canadian government is so impressed they're featuring it at
 >> their booth during the upcoming World Kyoto convention in
 >> Montreal. Nov.28 - Dec.9.

Perhaps... or perhaps not.

 >> And I believe they're introducing the product at a
 >> conference this Friday.


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Good post -- thanks.  I had a couple of observations.

Jones Beene wrote:

 >
 > A typical IC engine requires a compression ratio of 10-1 to get up
 > to 85% complete combustion of hydrocarbons (that's about the max, so
 > there is usually 15% wasted off the top because of the strong
 > molecular bonding of hydrocarbons)

But aren't modern engines, which happily gobble 87 octane fuel, down in
the ballpark of 9:1 rather than 10:1?  That presumably means they're
burning _less_ than 85% of the fuel, yes?

Once upon a time I had a car with a compression ratio up over 10 (long
since forgotten the exact number) and it knocked like an SOB on
anything less than about 95 octane.  But it also displaced somewhere
between 7.5 and 8 liters and would have gotten sick had I fed it a
lead-free diet ... truly it was a child of a different era.

 > It's not that grim in practice because as the piston goes down and
 > pressure drops, more and more of the formerly wasted heat can be
 > returned. But because of these insane requirements, we have been
 > misled into thinking that high compression is efficient...

But it IS "efficient"; a high compression engine can be made very
"efficient" indeed.  But the "efficiency" it maximizes is the power to
weight ratio, not the power to gallons-per-hour ratio!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 27 19:46:55 2005
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R C Maccalley expressed an interest in scalar waves. Read the 
Aahronov Bohn article which was published in the Physical Review in 
1959. A man named Gellinus got a series of patents which covered a 
communication device which utilized Curl free magnetic potential 
vectors. Tom Valone published an article about these waves,  I read 
it, but I still don't understand it. Perhaps on of the Vortexians 
will explain it. Puthoff received a patent on a device which looks 
very similar to that Ahronov /  Bohm detailed. I don't understand how 
he got that patent, Friends in high places, perhaps.

on a related topic. Someone was talking about electrical vortexes, I 
assume that this involves laying out a spiral of wire, and then 
energizing it with a certain frequency, the question is what' the 
frequency of this wave? I've often thought that perhaps one with a 
wave length equal to the length of the wire. OTOH, perhaps a pulse 
might be better.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 27 19:47:04 2005
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I noted the discussion on climate loonies yesterday. Last night on C 
to C AM, Robert Felix was interviewed. His website is 
www.iceagenow.com , His thesis is that there are lots of underwater 
volcanos, We don't know how many of these volcanos there are but 
between the hot rock, and the gas, they would affect the climate big 
time. Then there is the matter of the ocean conveyer, also known as 
the Gulf Stream. Mr. Felix says that the volume of this stream has 
decreased by 70%. This flow of water is why northern Europe has a 
temperate climate, even though it's latitude is that of northern 
Canada.

Basically, the oceans heat up,  it starts snowing 90 feet per day, 
the cloud cover prevents melting during the summer. He contends that 
the fossil record, ice cores, show that this process starts suddenly, 
within 20 years.

I'm going to try to contact James McCanney, the electro physicist who 
says that there are rocks hitting the Sun. So, to be continued......

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 27 19:58:40 2005
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See:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/27/AR2005092701812.html

Another straw in the wind.

Hundreds of thousands of cars were damaged by the hurricanes and are now being replaced, many of them with smaller cars.

- Jed



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 28 01:02:18 2005
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Subject: Re: OT - Some of Fred Singer's greatest climate inconsistencies
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At 03:19 pm 27/09/2005 -0400, Jed wrote:
>Mike Carrell wrote:

<snip>

>>Are the environmentalist movement leaders free of the lust for power while 
>>excoriating the "oil barons"?
>
>Some may be but we are not.
>

I think you may have intended to write -

Some may not be but we are (free from the lust for power).  ;-)

Cheers,  

FG

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At 09:45 pm 27/09/2005 -0500, you wrote:

> R C Macaulay expressed an interest in scalar waves. Read the 
> Aahronov Bohn article which was published in the Physical Review in 
> 1959. A man named Gellinus got a series of patents which covered a 
> communication device which utilized Curl free magnetic potential 
> vectors. Tom Valone published an article about these waves,  I read 
> it, but I still don't understand it. Perhaps on of the Vortexians 
> will explain it. Puthoff received a patent on a device which looks 
> very similar to that Ahronov /  Bohm detailed. I don't understand how 
> he got that patent, Friends in high places, perhaps.


Interestingly enough, I once read an article many moons ago which claimed
that the writer had sent a magnetic pulse down an iron wire or magnetic
circuit of some kind and that this pulse had travelled faster than the
speed of light. 

I found the idea very plausible since at the time I was rapidly loosing
whatever faith I might have had in SR.

Frank Grimer

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The Ouachita Mountains run east to west, "the only place in the hemisphere where this occurs".


http://rockhoundingar.com/geology/ouamtns.html

"Back in the early times before the dinosaurs, Arkansas was on the shore of a deep ocean, called the Ouachita Basin."

" But it didn't stop there. It created Louisiana and all of the southeastern gulf coast that we know and love. That's why people from Texas and Louisiana come to Arkansas to collect rocks, and why people from Arkansas drive eight hours south for our seashore vacations!"

Also your part of Texas, Richard.  :-)

I racked up a lot of vertical foot mobile miles there in 1966 installing equipment for 
a military aircraft  under the radar target acquisition exercise. No GPS to tell you where you wuz.

Frederick
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<DIV>The Ouachita Mountains run east to west, "the only place in the hemisphere where this occurs".</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://rockhoundingar.com/geology/ouamtns.html">http://rockhoundingar.com/geology/ouamtns.html</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>"Back in the early times before the dinosaurs, Arkansas was on the shore of a deep ocean, called the Ouachita Basin."</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>" But it didn't stop there. It created Louisiana and all of the southeastern gulf coast that we know and love. That's why people from Texas and Louisiana come to Arkansas to collect rocks, and why people from Arkansas drive eight hours south for our seashore vacations!"</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Also your part of Texas, Richard.&nbsp; :-)</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>I racked up a lot of vertical foot mobile miles there in 1966 installing equipment for </DIV>
<DIV>a military aircraft &nbsp;under the radar target acquisition exercise. No GPS to tell you where you wuz.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Frederick</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<P></P></BODY></HTML>
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Are we due for a sudden change?

http://www.esd.ornl.gov/projects/qen/nerc130k.html

"Warming, then a cold snap. Around 14,000 years ago (about 13,000 radiocarbon years ago), there was a rapid global warming and moistening of climates, perhaps occurring within the space of only a few years or decades. In many respects, this phase seems to have resembled some of the earlier interstadials that had occurred so many times before during the glacial period. Conditions in many mid-latitude areas appear to have been about as warm as they are today, although many other areas - whilst warmer than during the Late Glacial Cold Stage - seem to have remained slightly cooler than at present."
 
14,500 y.a. - rapid warming and moistening of climates in some areas. Rapid deglaciation begins.
13,500 y.a. - nearly all areas with climates at least as warm and moist as today's
12,800 y.a. (+/- 200 years)- rapid onset of cool, dry Younger Dryas in many areas
11,500 y.a. (+/- 200 years) - Younger Dryas ends suddenly, back to warmth and moist climates (Holocene, or Stage 1)
9,000 y.a. - 8,200 y.a. - climates warmer and often moister than today's
about 8,200 y.a. - sudden cool and dry phase in many areas
8,000-4,500 y.a. - climates somewhat warmer and moister than today's
Since 4,500 y.a. - climates fairly similar to the present
(except; about 2600 y.a. - relatively wet/cold event (of unknown duration) in many areas)"
Frederick
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<DIV>Are we due for a sudden change?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://www.esd.ornl.gov/projects/qen/nerc130k.html">http://www.esd.ornl.gov/projects/qen/nerc130k.html</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><EM>"Warming, then a cold snap. </EM></STRONG>Around 14,000 years ago (about 13,000 radiocarbon years ago), there was a rapid global warming and moistening of climates, perhaps occurring within the space of only a few years or decades. In many respects, this phase seems to have resembled some of the earlier interstadials that had occurred so many times before during the glacial period. Conditions in many mid-latitude areas appear to have been about as warm as they are today, although many other areas - whilst warmer than during the Late Glacial Cold Stage - seem to have remained slightly cooler than at present."</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;
<P><STRONG>14,500 y.a. - rapid warming and moistening of climates in some areas. Rapid deglaciation begins.</STRONG></P><B>
<P>13,500 y.a. - nearly all areas with climates at least as warm and moist as today's</P></B>
<P>12,800 y.a. (+/- 200 years)- rapid onset of cool, dry Younger Dryas in many areas</P><B>
<P>11,500 y.a. (+/- 200 years) - Younger Dryas ends suddenly, back to warmth and moist climates (Holocene, or Stage 1)</P></B><B>
<P>9,000 y.a. - 8,200 y.a. - climates warmer and often moister than today's</P></B><B>
<P>about 8,200 y.a. - sudden cool and dry phase in many areas</P></B><B>
<P>8,000-4,500 y.a. - climates somewhat warmer and moister than today's</P></B>
<P><B>Since 4,500 y.a. - climates fairly similar to the present</B></P><B></B>
<P><B>(except; about 2600 y.a. - relatively wet/cold event (of unknown duration) in many areas)"</B></P>
<P>Frederick</P></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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Jed Rothwell wrote:

>...
>Another straw in the wind.
>  
>
 > ...

And here's another (very small) straw.

I telecommute, and I'm hardly ever out driving.  Before last week, my 
previous commute to the office (a couple towns away) was several months 
ago.  As usual I was annoyed to see that some enormous fraction of the 
vehicles I saw on the highway were SUV's.

But Monday and Tuesday of last week, my physical presence was required 
and I drove out to work.  I wasn't looking at the other vehicles 
particularly to start with, but suddenly I realized that I was seeing 
lots of _cars_ on the road.  Then I started really looking and observed 
that far more than half the non-commercial vehicles were automobiles.  
Next category seemed to be minivans, with a relatively small percentage 
of SUV's.

This was a big change!

This isn't scientific -- I didn't even count to get real ratios -- but 
it sure made my day none the less.

People with gas hogs try hard to find alternatives to driving them when 
the price shoots up.

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Fred wrote..



  The Ouachita Mountains run east to west, "the only place in the =
hemisphere where this occurs".


  http://rockhoundingar.com/geology/ouamtns.html

  "Back in the early times before the dinosaurs, Arkansas was on the =
shore of a deep ocean, called the Ouachita Basin."

  " But it didn't stop there. It created Louisiana and all of the =
southeastern gulf coast that we know and love. That's why people from =
Texas and Louisiana come to Arkansas to collect rocks, and why people =
from Arkansas drive eight hours south for our seashore vacations!"

  Also your part of Texas, Richard.  :-)

  I racked up a lot of vertical foot mobile miles there in 1966 =
installing equipment for=20
  a military aircraft  under the radar target acquisition exercise. No =
GPS to tell you where you wuz.

  Frederick


  Fred.. Was that you trapsing across my pack pasture? Had hot coffee =
and chicken and dumplings waiting for you.

  Speaking of Arkansas and Texas, the closer you get between these two =
state, the more weird the geology and the folks become.. lotsa  feet =
with 7 toes back in the woods. Also seismic  folks have their share of =
fun trying to figure out what they caught in the bucket when magnetic =
lines of force just don't want to follow the darn rules. Barium mines =
play fun tricks too.. Baroid Corp, now a div of Halliburton has lotsa =
fun stuff tales. Once was a company called Magcobar.. Magnetic Cove =
Barium Co.. wonder how they came up with that name ?=20

  Water well drillers can tell tales that not even a Texan can believe < =
grin>. Stuff like getting core samples of cypress trees some 500 feet =
down ( still in the vertical) near the Trinity river. Probably the =
weirdest are stories about digging hand dug water wells on the north =
side of Houston back in the old days and hearing running water in =
underground rivers beneath your feet. Nobody would believe them. Well, =
neither did I until I heard the story about the two scuba divers =
exploring underwater spring fed caves in Lake Houston. The diver =
surfaced, climbing in the skiff saying, ain't going down there, nary =
never again, when I look a catfish in the face thats big enough to =
swallow me. I'm taking up a new sport.

  Richard

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML style=3D"FONT-SIZE: x-small; FONT-FAMILY: MS Sans Serif"><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2722" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana>Fred wrote..</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <P>
  <DIV>The Ouachita Mountains run east to west, "the only place in the=20
  hemisphere where this occurs".</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><A=20
  =
href=3D"http://rockhoundingar.com/geology/ouamtns.html">http://rockhoundi=
ngar.com/geology/ouamtns.html</A></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>"Back in the early times before the dinosaurs, Arkansas was on =
the shore=20
  of a deep ocean, called the Ouachita Basin."</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>" But it didn't stop there. It created Louisiana and all of the=20
  southeastern gulf coast that we know and love. That's why people from =
Texas=20
  and Louisiana come to Arkansas to collect rocks, and why people from =
Arkansas=20
  drive eight hours south for our seashore vacations!"</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Also your part of Texas, Richard.&nbsp; :-)</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>I racked up a lot of vertical foot mobile miles there in 1966 =
installing=20
  equipment for </DIV>
  <DIV>a military aircraft &nbsp;under the radar target acquisition =
exercise. No=20
  GPS to tell you where you wuz.</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Frederick</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <P><FONT face=3DVerdana>Fred.. Was that you trapsing across my pack =
pasture? Had=20
  hot coffee and chicken and dumplings waiting for you.</FONT></P>
  <P><FONT face=3DVerdana>Speaking of Arkansas and Texas, the closer you =
get=20
  between these two state, the more weird the geology and the&nbsp;folks =

  become.. lotsa&nbsp; feet with 7 toes back in the woods. Also =
seismic&nbsp;=20
  folks have their share of fun trying to figure out what =
they&nbsp;caught in=20
  the bucket&nbsp;when magnetic lines of force just don't want to follow =
the=20
  darn rules. Barium mines play fun tricks too.. Baroid Corp, now a div =
of=20
  Halliburton has lotsa fun stuff tales. Once was a company called =
Magcobar..=20
  Magnetic Cove Barium Co.. wonder how they came up with that name ? =
</FONT></P>
  <P><FONT face=3DVerdana>Water well drillers can tell tales that not =
even a Texan=20
  can believe &lt; grin&gt;. Stuff like getting core samples of cypress =
trees=20
  some 500 feet down ( still in the vertical)&nbsp;near the Trinity =
river.=20
  Probably the weirdest are stories about digging&nbsp;hand dug =
water&nbsp;wells=20
  on the north side of Houston back in the old days and hearing running =
water in=20
  underground rivers beneath your feet. Nobody would believe them. Well, =
neither=20
  did I until I heard the story about the two scuba divers exploring =
underwater=20
  spring fed caves in Lake Houston. The diver surfaced, climbing in the =
skiff=20
  saying, ain't going down there, nary never again, when I look a =
catfish in the=20
  face thats big enough to swallow me. I'm taking up a new =
sport.</FONT></P>
  <P><FONT face=3DVerdana>Richard</FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C5C3FD.7C017660--


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Subject: Re: O.T. Strange Mountains
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Richard Macaulay wrote:

> Speaking of Arkansas and Texas, the closer you get between these two state, the more weird the geology and > the folks become.. lotsa  feet with 7 toes back in the woods.
> 
The only strange people I met there, had relocated there from Texas.   :-)

Al Capp must have researched the area thoroughly before drawing Daisy Mae's lines.

We had to be cautious about disturbing the local Ethanol Industry (ADM has nothing on these guys)
lest we end up looking like Fearless Fosdick after a run-in with bad guys.

http://www.lil-abner.com/daisymae.html

Where are those lovable Shmoos?   

Are they waiting for Cold Fusion Utopia?

http://www.lil-abner.com/shmoo.html

Frederick
> 
> Richard
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<HTML style="FONT-SIZE: x-small; FONT-FAMILY: MS Sans Serif"><HEAD>
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<DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Richard Macaulay wrote:</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2><FONT face=Verdana>&gt; Speaking of Arkansas and Texas, the closer you get between these two state, the more weird the geology and &gt; the&nbsp;folks become.. lotsa&nbsp; feet with 7 toes back in the woods.</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>&gt; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV>The only strange people I met there, had relocated there from Texas.&nbsp;&nbsp; :-)</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Al Capp must have researched the area thoroughly before drawing Daisy Mae's lines.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>We had to be cautious about disturbing the local Ethanol Industry (ADM has nothing on these guys)</DIV>
<DIV>lest we end up looking like Fearless Fosdick after a run-in with bad guys.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://www.lil-abner.com/daisymae.html">http://www.lil-abner.com/daisymae.html</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Where are those lovable Shmoos?&nbsp;&nbsp; </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Are they waiting for Cold Fusion Utopia?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://www.lil-abner.com/shmoo.html">http://www.lil-abner.com/shmoo.html</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Frederick</DIV>
<DIV>&gt; </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2><FONT face=Verdana>&gt; Richard</FONT></DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 28 08:03:34 2005
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Stephen A. Lawrence writes,

> > A typical IC engine requires a compression ratio of 10-1 to 
> > get up
> > to 85% complete combustion of hydrocarbons (that's about the 
> > max, so
> > there is usually 15% wasted off the top because of the strong
> > molecular bonding of hydrocarbons)
>
> But aren't modern engines, which happily gobble 87 octane fuel, 
> down in
> the ballpark of 9:1 rather than 10:1?  That presumably means 
> they're
> burning _less_ than 85% of the fuel, yes?

Covering this narrow subject (complete combustion) in exact detail 
would require many pages, as there are many, many variables 
involved. The most important variable for complete burn, besides 
compression ratio and uniformity of the charge, is the "wetted 
area" i.e. the surface area of relatively cold metal which is in 
contact with the fuel-air mix. This is one reason why the 
"hemi-head" - the dome is better for combustion is that it has 
less-wetted area compared to the "wedge" combustion chamber. Iron 
heads are better than aluminum if they are run "hotter". etc. etc. 
It is just a very complicated subject, with interlocking variable, 
which lends itself to many "potential" improvements - but at a 
"cost" - such as higher combustion temps using ceramics instead of 
metal, and fuel additives (including H2) or water vapor, or the 
high voltage Zenion possibility.

The main point of the posting was intended to be this 
generalization: Hydrogen is **very mobile** and advantageous for 
combustion - all else being equal. H2 has a "flame speed" which is 
at least 10 time faster than gasoline. If you substitute hydrogen 
for a portion of your carbon fuel, then the added efficiency (even 
after the H2 has been reformed) can come "free" just from 
utilizing only the unburned fuel. Getting there, however, is not 
simple. There are MANY rip-offs going on now, under the broad 
subject heading of on-board hydrogen generation. Caveat emptor.

It is as simple as that, in principle, although the details are 
very complicated and this is the perfect area for (normally 
dreaded) government intervention.

As far as what is apparent in the literature, there is no good 
reason (other than added capital cost) why every hybrid should not 
also carry water, and the added equipment to utilize steam for 
onboard reforming of gasoline, to provide hydrogen for added 
efficiency and lower CO2. This could take the Prius, for instance 
from 60 MPG to 90 MPG. You do not need to store hydrogen - only 
water.

But this adds yet another layer of complication and expense - like 
an added tank for the water, and reactor fro reforming, and would 
require demineralized water - so it is far from simple ... and 
would probably need to be legislated-in.

Toyota is reluctant to even add the owner-option of adding more 
batteries. That is comparatively simple. Go figure. The companies 
will go only so far on their own initiative - after that - perhaps 
this becomes the role of government to step in and legislate.

Jones 

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Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 11:15:34 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Solar hydrogen production at only 400 deg C
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Remarkable. See:

http://www.pureenergysystems.com/news/2004/09/14/6900043_Solar_Hydrogen/

- Jed


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> Remarkable. See:
 =
http://www.pureenergysystems.com/news/2004/09/14/6900043_Solar_Hydrogen/


... or for the astute time-traveler, or deja-vu artiste... one can visit =
the remarkable Vo-archives for 6/13, where it was written:



Mirror, mirror on the stand, who's got the fairest plan in=20
techno-land....

Mentioned was made of the *Beck Patent* recently -  The owner of=20
the patent,  SHEC, Solar Hydrogen Energy Corporation, wants to be=20
the leader in the clean, renewable hydrogen economy.
http://www.shec-labs.com/index.htm
Remember them - this could be a big name soon in renewable energy.

On Vortex, many have lamented the ongoing disappointment through=20
the years in solar energy conversion, especially in silicon solar=20
cells - which now look almost as UNeconomical as ever - without,=20
that is, the *huge* tax breaks that have given them some=20
additional gasps of life. Ironically, it is northern climes - as=20
the recent thread about German-solar indicates, that they are most=20
useful. But a closer look at the numbers is disturbing. The=20
problem remains that refining silicon from sand requires a larger=20
CO2 burden than the cells can ever ameliorate in their lifetime,=20
which is surprisingly short without ongoing maintenance.

... that may change soon - thanks to another US/Canadian=20
consortium.

Isn't it ironic that Canada, which has so much potential oil (tar=20
sands) and so little sun - has become a dynamic leader in this=20
pursuit? Jed mentioned some of the socio-historical rationale for=20
this "second tier" effect - and we can only be thankful for it.=20
One may suspect that those long, cold winters and tundra winds are=20
an unappreciated source of "inspiration" (as in Finland, which is=20
now the world's #1 economy in terms of overall competitiveness).=20
If the Finn's get-in on this Beck-SHEC solar-thing, then the=20
hydrogen economy may be closer than anyone realizes.

The process is solar-thermochemical. The product is cheap H2 -=20
cheaper than gasoline for transportation (as soon as the storage=20
problem is solved). As many have noted, using mirror, rather than=20
solar cells can reduce the cost per square meter of solar energy=20
input by a factor of 1000-to-1 - and from there on, the problem of=20
utilizing solar seems to be in getting very high volumes of H2 at=20
lower temperature (the SHEC can operated at less than 1000 degrees=20
C) and the more pressing problem of *separation* of H2 before=20
recombination can occur. That is the job of the vortex tube.

Mr. J. Thomas Beck, the head man, had been actively involved in=20
hydrogen research for two decades. In 1996, with a theoretical=20
breakthrough and some seed money, SHEC labs was formed to prove=20
that solar energy could be used to extract hydrogen from water. In=20
1999, work continued on a high temperature 250KW solar simulator=20
to test designs for the high temperature water splitting process.=20
By September of 1999, the company made significant advances which=20
lowered the temperature requirements for the water splitting=20
process in an Advanced Cycle Energy Reduction Process (ACERP). The=20
main patent was issued in 2003 and there have been many more in=20
the works.
http://www.shec-labs.com/process.php

Recently, they have formed strategic alliances with several other=20
players including: Giffels Associates Limited,  notably a=20
'cutting-edge' employee-owned company;
http://www.giffels.com/

... and Hydrogenics, a publicly traded fuel cell manufacturing=20
company; and the Clean 16 Environmental Technologies Corp and the=20
University of Toronto. Just weeks ago, SHEC announced plans for a=20
Renewable Solar Hydrogen Pilot Plant.

We can only hope that they have the answer and the resources to=20
pull it off.

Jones
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</HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&gt; Remarkable. =
See:<BR>&nbsp;</FONT><A=20
href=3D"http://www.pureenergysystems.com/news/2004/09/14/6900043_Solar_Hy=
drogen/"><FONT=20
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>http://www.pureenergysystems.com/news/2004/09/14/6900043_Solar_H=
ydrogen/</FONT></A><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>... or for the astute time-traveler, or =
deja-vu=20
artiste... one can visit the remarkable Vo-archives for 6/13, where it =
was=20
written:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Mirror, mirror on the stand, who's got =
the fairest=20
plan in <BR>techno-land....<BR><BR>Mentioned was made of the *Beck =
Patent*=20
recently -&nbsp; The owner of <BR>the patent,&nbsp; SHEC, Solar Hydrogen =
Energy=20
Corporation, wants to be <BR>the leader in the clean, renewable hydrogen =

economy.<BR></FONT><A href=3D"http://www.shec-labs.com/index.htm"><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>http://www.shec-labs.com/index.htm</FONT></A><BR><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>Remember them - this could be a big name soon in renewable=20
energy.<BR><BR>On Vortex, many have lamented the ongoing disappointment =
through=20
<BR>the years in solar energy conversion, especially in silicon solar =
<BR>cells=20
- which now look almost as UNeconomical as ever - without, <BR>that is, =
the=20
*huge* tax breaks that have given them some <BR>additional gasps of =
life.=20
Ironically, it is northern climes - as <BR>the recent thread about =
German-solar=20
indicates, that they are most <BR>useful. But a closer look at the =
numbers is=20
disturbing. The <BR>problem remains that refining silicon from sand =
requires a=20
larger <BR>CO2 burden than the cells can ever ameliorate in their =
lifetime,=20
<BR>which is surprisingly short without ongoing maintenance.<BR><BR>... =
that may=20
change soon - thanks to another US/Canadian <BR>consortium.<BR><BR>Isn't =
it=20
ironic that Canada, which has so much potential oil (tar <BR>sands) and =
so=20
little sun - has become a dynamic leader in this <BR>pursuit? Jed =
mentioned some=20
of the socio-historical rationale for <BR>this "second tier" effect - =
and we can=20
only be thankful for it. <BR>One may suspect that those long, cold =
winters and=20
tundra winds are <BR>an unappreciated source of "inspiration" (as in =
Finland,=20
which is <BR>now the world's #1 economy in terms of overall =
competitiveness).=20
<BR>If the Finn's get-in on this Beck-SHEC solar-thing, then the =
<BR>hydrogen=20
economy may be closer than anyone realizes.<BR><BR>The process is=20
solar-thermochemical. The product is cheap H2 - <BR>cheaper than =
gasoline for=20
transportation (as soon as the storage <BR>problem is solved). As many =
have=20
noted, using mirror, rather than <BR>solar cells can reduce the cost per =
square=20
meter of solar energy <BR>input by a factor of 1000-to-1 - and from =
there on,=20
the problem of <BR>utilizing solar seems to be in getting very high =
volumes of=20
H2 at <BR>lower temperature (the SHEC can operated at less than 1000 =
degrees=20
<BR>C) and the more pressing problem of *separation* of H2 before=20
<BR>recombination can occur. That is the job of the vortex =
tube.<BR><BR>Mr. J.=20
Thomas Beck, the head man, had been actively involved in <BR>hydrogen =
research=20
for two decades. In 1996, with a theoretical <BR>breakthrough and some =
seed=20
money, SHEC labs was formed to prove <BR>that solar energy could be used =
to=20
extract hydrogen from water. In <BR>1999, work continued on a high =
temperature=20
250KW solar simulator <BR>to test designs for the high temperature water =

splitting process. <BR>By September of 1999, the company made =
significant=20
advances which <BR>lowered the temperature requirements for the water =
splitting=20
<BR>process in an Advanced Cycle Energy Reduction Process (ACERP). The =
<BR>main=20
patent was issued in 2003 and there have been many more in <BR>the=20
works.<BR></FONT><A href=3D"http://www.shec-labs.com/process.php"><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>http://www.shec-labs.com/process.php</FONT></A><BR><BR><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>Recently, they have formed strategic alliances with several =
other=20
<BR>players including: Giffels Associates Limited,&nbsp; notably a=20
<BR>'cutting-edge' employee-owned company;<BR></FONT><A=20
href=3D"http://www.giffels.com/"><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>http://www.giffels.com/</FONT></A></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><BR><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>... and=20
Hydrogenics, a publicly traded fuel cell manufacturing <BR>company; and =
the=20
Clean 16 Environmental Technologies Corp and the <BR>University of =
Toronto. Just=20
weeks ago, SHEC announced plans for a <BR>Renewable Solar Hydrogen Pilot =

Plant.<BR><BR>We can only hope that they have the answer and the =
resources to=20
<BR>pull it off.<BR><BR>Jones</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_00DF_01C5C407.B8C65CF0--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 28 08:53:28 2005
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Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 11:52:08 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Solar hydrogen production at only 400 deg C
In-Reply-To: <00e201c5c442$6586dcf0$6401a8c0 NuDell>
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 <00e201c5c442$6586dcf0$6401a8c0 NuDell>
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Jones Beene wrote:

> > Remarkable. See:
>  http://www.pureenergysystems.com/news/2004/09/14/6900043_Solar_Hydrogen/
>
>... or for the astute time-traveler, or deja-vu artiste... one can visit 
>the remarkable Vo-archives for 6/13, where it was written:

Ah . . . I thought it sounded familiar.

Anyway, they appear to be making progress toward a pilot plant. See the 
latest press releases at http://www.shec-labs.com/index.htm.

- Jed


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Subject: Re: O.T. Strange Mountains
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Fred, so true.=20
I once got in trouble in New Mexico. Locals there hate Texans. I =
remarked that there wasn't anyone living in New Mexico except indians =
until we chased all the horse thieves, cattel rustlers and stagecoach =
robbers across the border. Now we send them to Washington where they can =
practice their natural profession.
Richard
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Frederick Sparber=20
  To: vortex-l eskimo.com=20
  Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2005 8:21 AM
  Subject: Re: O.T. Strange Mountains


  Richard Macaulay wrote:

  > Speaking of Arkansas and Texas, the closer you get between these two =
state, the more weird the geology and > the folks become.. lotsa  feet =
with 7 toes back in the woods.
  >=20
  The only strange people I met there, had relocated there from Texas.   =
:-)

  Al Capp must have researched the area thoroughly before drawing Daisy =
Mae's lines.

  We had to be cautious about disturbing the local Ethanol Industry (ADM =
has nothing on these guys)
  lest we end up looking like Fearless Fosdick after a run-in with bad =
guys.

  http://www.lil-abner.com/daisymae.html

  Where are those lovable Shmoos?  =20

  Are they waiting for Cold Fusion Utopia?

  http://www.lil-abner.com/shmoo.html

  Frederick
  >=20
  > Richard
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<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana>Fred, so true. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana>I once got in trouble in New Mexico. Locals =
there hate=20
Texans. I remarked that there wasn't anyone living in New Mexico except =
indians=20
until we chased all the horse thieves, cattel rustlers&nbsp;and =
stagecoach=20
robbers&nbsp;across the border. Now we send them to Washington where =
they can=20
practice their natural profession.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana>Richard</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3Dfjsparber earthlink.net=20
  href=3D"mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net">Frederick Sparber</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dvortex-l eskimo.com=20
  href=3D"mailto:vortex-l eskimo.com">vortex-l@eskimo.com</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, September 28, =
2005 8:21=20
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: O.T. Strange =
Mountains</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Richard Macaulay wrote:</FONT></DIV></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DVerdana>&gt; Speaking of Arkansas and =
Texas, the=20
  closer you get between these two state, the more weird the geology and =
&gt;=20
  the&nbsp;folks become.. lotsa&nbsp; feet with 7 toes back in the=20
  woods.</FONT></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>&gt; </FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>The only strange people I met there, had relocated there from=20
  Texas.&nbsp;&nbsp; :-)</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Al Capp must have researched the area thoroughly before drawing =
Daisy=20
  Mae's lines.</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>We had to be cautious about disturbing the local Ethanol Industry =
(ADM=20
  has nothing on these guys)</DIV>
  <DIV>lest we end up looking like Fearless Fosdick after a run-in with =
bad=20
  guys.</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><A=20
  =
href=3D"http://www.lil-abner.com/daisymae.html">http://www.lil-abner.com/=
daisymae.html</A></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Where are those lovable Shmoos?&nbsp;&nbsp; </DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Are they waiting for Cold Fusion Utopia?</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><A=20
  =
href=3D"http://www.lil-abner.com/shmoo.html">http://www.lil-abner.com/shm=
oo.html</A></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Frederick</DIV>
  <DIV>&gt; </DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DVerdana>&gt;=20
Richard</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></BODY></HTML>

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Ouch!

<http://members.aol.com/fswemedien/ZZUnfalldatei.htm>http://members.aol.com/fswemedien/ZZUnfalldatei.htm 


http://members.aol.com/fswemedien/ZZUnfalldatei_00_02.htm

Nothing is perfectly safe.

- Jed

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<html>
<body>
Ouch!<br><br>
<a href="http://members.aol.com/fswemedien/ZZUnfalldatei.htm">
http://members.aol.com/fswemedien/ZZUnfalldatei.htm</a> <br><br>
<a href="http://members.aol.com/fswemedien/ZZUnfalldatei_00_02.htm" eudora="autourl">
http://members.aol.com/fswemedien/ZZUnfalldatei_00_02.htm<br><br>
</a>Nothing is perfectly safe.<br><br>
- Jed<br>
</body>
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--=====================_5193750==.ALT--


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From: "Alex Caliostro" <caliostro1795 hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Solar hydrogen production at only 400 deg C
Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 10:32:49 -0600
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>From: "Jones Beene"

>Isn't it ironic that Canada, which has so much potential oil (tar
>sands) and so little sun - has become a dynamic leader in this
>pursuit?

yes and it appears the rush to alternative energy and talk of peak oil have 
scared someone

"Oil reserves are double previous estimates, says Saudi
By Saeed Shah
Published: 28 September 2005
Saudi Arabia, the biggest oil producer, and Exxon Mobil, the largest oil 
company, yesterday declared that the world had decades' worth of oil to 
come, in an attempt to calm fears about the record prices experienced in 
recent weeks.

Forming a powerful alliance, the Saudi oil minister Ali al-Naimi said, at an 
industry conference in Johannesburg, that the country would soon almost 
double its "proven" reserve base, while Exxon's president, Rex Tillerson, 
spoke of 3 trillion or more barrels of oil that are yet to be recovered."

continued at

http://news.independent.co.uk/business/news/article315546.ece

_____
-alex

_________________________________________________________________
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 28 09:50:28 2005
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What is exciting about getting hydrogen from methane using a solar
concentrator,when
you can run methane/hydrocarbons  over hot (800 C) carbon to do the same
thing?
The highly exothermic Carbon-Carbon bonds of Lamp Black does the rest.
A Quantum Leap to go to split the 4.52 eV  H-OH and 5.2 eV  H-O bonds
of water.
As to storage of cheap hydrogen, reacting it with CO2 to make methanol to
use in ICEs and fuel cells is the most practical near-term option.

3 H2 + CO2 <---> CH3OH + H2O 
 
The energy losses are offset by practicality.

Frederick

http://www.shec-labs.com/press/releases/2005Jun1press.php

> [Original Message]
> From: Alex Caliostro 
>
> >From: "Jones Beene"
>
> >Isn't it ironic that Canada, which has so much potential oil (tar
> >sands) and so little sun - has become a dynamic leader in this
> >pursuit?
>
> yes and it appears the rush to alternative energy and talk of peak oil
have 
> scared someone
>
> "Oil reserves are double previous estimates, says Saudi
> By Saeed Shah
> Published: 28 September 2005
> Saudi Arabia, the biggest oil producer, and Exxon Mobil, the largest oil 
> company, yesterday declared that the world had decades' worth of oil to 
> come, in an attempt to calm fears about the record prices experienced in 
> recent weeks.
>
> Forming a powerful alliance, the Saudi oil minister Ali al-Naimi said, at
an 
> industry conference in Johannesburg, that the country would soon almost 
> double its "proven" reserve base, while Exxon's president, Rex Tillerson, 
> spoke of 3 trillion or more barrels of oil that are yet to be recovered."
>
> continued at
>
> http://news.independent.co.uk/business/news/article315546.ece
>
> _____
> -alex
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now! 
> http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/



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From: OrionWorks <orionworks charter.net>
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>From: Jed Rothwell 
>
>Ouch!
>
>http://members.aol.com/fswemedien/ZZUnfalldatei.htm 
>
>http://members.aol.com/fswemedien/ZZUnfalldatei_00_02.htm
>
>Nothing is perfectly safe.
>
>- Jed

Ouch indeed.

I can't help but wonder if the new spiral shaped wind turbines recently brought to our attention like the ones RC Macaulay showed us at:

http://www.windside.com/index.html

would have resulted in fewer over-all accidents. The claim has been made that these new spiral shaped turbines are capable of withstanding strong anomalous wind gusts (including hurricane strength) far better too. They also claim to generate more electricity on average as well. They state:

"Windside produces electricity at least 50 % more in a year than traditional propeller models."

The burning question I would like to have answered is if these designs had been used instead of the more familiar propeller layout would they have been able to generate as much electricity as claimed, if not more?

PS: I originally expressed the highly conceited opinion that I thought these spiral shaped wind turbines were not as pretty as the propeller shaped designs. I was wrong. After watching a video of them in operation I now realize they are FAR more elegant looking.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

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> From: "Alex Caliostro" 
...
> yes and it appears the rush to alternative energy and
> talk of peak oil have scared someone
> 
> "Oil reserves are double previous estimates, says Saudi
> By Saeed ShahPublished: 28 September 2005 Saudi Arabia,
> the biggest oil producer, and Exxon Mobil, the largest
> oil company, yesterday declared that the world had
> decades' worth of oil to come, in an attempt to calm
> fears about the record prices experienced in 
> recent weeks.
> 
> Forming a powerful alliance, the Saudi oil minister Ali
> al-Naimi said, at an industry conference in Johannesburg,
> that the country would soon almost double its "proven"
> reserve base, while Exxon's president, Rex Tillerson, 
> spoke of 3 trillion or more barrels of oil that are yet
> to be recovered."
> 
> continued at
> 
> http://news.independent.co.uk/business/news/article315546.ece
> _____
> -alex

I think I'll ask for a second opinion. ;-)

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 28 10:37:04 2005
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Alex Caliostro wrote:

>yes and it appears the rush to alternative energy and talk of peak oil 
>have scared someone
>
>"Oil reserves are double previous estimates, says Saudi
>By Saeed Shah

The Saudis have zero credibility on this topic, in my opinion and in the 
opinion of many experts. They have consistently exaggerated their reserves. 
All OPEC members do, because quotas are allocated based on reserves. Actual 
oil field data is a closely guarded secret in all OPEC countries. Even the 
U.S. oil companies now admit that new reserves are being "discovered" at 
half the rate of present consumption. This was in a print advertisement 
this week, and it has been common knowledge for years.

The word "discovery" does not really apply to oil in the usual sense. It is 
not as if explorers wearing pith helmets in the desert stumble upon 
unexpected fields. Every potential oil field on Earth has was carefully 
inventoried by satellite and on the ground decades ago. There have been no 
substantial discoveries in the Middle East since Abu Dhabi in 1954. The 
fact that the Arctic slope of Alaska is a major oil field was established 
in 1923, although detailed exploration was not done until much later. While 
it is impossible to establish exactly how much oil each spot holds, the 
absolute physical and geological limits were established 70 years ago, and 
there have been no surprises since then. For example, we know the "oil 
window." This is minimum and maximum depth at which oil can occur: 7,000 to 
15,000 feet. Drilling rigs reached 15,000 feet in 1938. There is no point 
to drilling any deeper for oil, because geothermal heat breaks it down into 
gas. (Deffeyes, p. 8) We know that there can be no oil under the oceans 
beyond the continental shelf.

Periodically you hear rumors about fantastic new reserves discovered in 
Alaska or the Gulf of Mexico but these usually fade away. Sometimes, fields 
produce more than the experts predicted, but more often they produce less 
-- or nothing. In other words, after-the-fact analyses show that experts 
tend to be too optimistic.

"Expanding reserves" means that experts are going back with better 
instruments or test wells to establish a more detailed and reliable 
inventory, or they are using more advanced technology to pump out the 
remaining oil, which depletes the oil field more rapidly.

Kenneth Deffeyes has written the most understandable books and newspaper 
articles on these topics. See:

http://www.princeton.edu/hubbert/

(Some of his articles are available here, along with photos of his 
grandchild and some of his favorite recipes. He is a folksy guy.)

- Jed


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To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Wind turbine accidents
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OrionWorks wrote:

>I can't help but wonder if the new spiral shaped wind turbines recently 
>brought to our attention like the ones RC Macaulay showed us at:
>
>http://www.windside.com/index.html

I wouldn't know . . . but from what I have seen many serious accidents are 
caused by towers collapsing and by electric fires. Both would happen with 
the spiral turbines. I suppose the only common accident that would not 
occur would be falling turbine blades.

Despite these accidents, wind power remains one of the safest ways to 
generate electricity yet invented, according to EPRI. Safety is measured in 
injuries and fatalities per kilowatt-hour. You have to look at the big 
picture and include things like mining accidents (for coal), refinery fires 
(for oil), and accidents at the turbine factory (for wind). I think EPRI 
said the largest cause of death with wind is falling from towers during the 
construction phase. Modern towers are huge and people seldom have to go 
outside them once they are erected. The electric generators are serviced 
inside the building.

- Jed


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set the controls for the heart of the sun

2000 miles in a cramped position

http://www.wsc.org.au/2005/competition/

any of our friends downunder know whos leading

_____
-alex

_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! 
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Jed wrote:

> Remarkable. See:

> http://www.pureenergysystems.com/news/2004/09/14/6900043_Solar_Hydrogen/

Remarkable indeed.  I've following the progress of this system
for a while, and was somewhat skeptical of the claims. However,
it seems they have something here. 

OTOH, look at the size, scale and weight of the solar concentrator
and the fact the hydrogen generator is way up there in the air
with all those cables, tubes and tubes and wires hanging down.
Contrast this with my proposed 3.3 meter fresnel concentrator,
with its lightweight frame, way cheaper optics and the fact that
whatever is receiving the concenctrated solar energy can be placed
on the ground. I didn't see any info on the dimensions of their
concentrators, but they looked to be about three something meters.

I'm going to talk myself into doing this yet. 

M.

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 28 11:27:31 2005
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To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Solar hydrogen production at only 400 deg C
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Frederick Sparber wrote:

>What is exciting about getting hydrogen from methane using a solar
>concentrator,when
>you can run methane/hydrocarbons  over hot (800 C) carbon to do the same
>thing?

Where do you get the hydrocarbons? The exciting part of solar concentrator 
is that the starting products are only water and sunlight.

Also this is faster, more efficient and it takes less space than 
photosynthesis.

This would be a great way to produce hydrogen in places like Arizona or 
Texas to be shipped via pipeline to the East and West Coast population 
centers. (The natural gas pipelines are already there, and after 
retrofitting and relining they will probably work with hydrogen.) There is 
less sunlight in winter, but more wind, so we could have a nifty 
combination of wind turbines in the Dakotas plus solar collectors in the 
southwest.

All in all, large-scale alternative energy is more practical than people 
realize. The only drawback is that it would cost more than today's fossil 
fuel, at least in the initial phases. If fossil fuel does run out gradually 
over the next 30 years I think we will have plenty of time to install a 
million solar collectors and wind turbines, and these will produce more 
than enough electricity and synthetic fuel, with some left over for export. 
I think it would also be a good idea to build ~50 new nuclear power plants 
for areas that have no wind or solar resources, such as Connecticut. The 
Feds are working on direct hydrogen production with next-generation U 
fission reactors.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 28 11:44:34 2005
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Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 14:43:17 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: Solar hydrogen production at only 400 deg C
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Michael Foster wrote:

>OTOH, look at the size, scale and weight of the solar concentrator
>and the fact the hydrogen generator is way up there in the air
>with all those cables, tubes and tubes and wires hanging down.

That's how I felt about the Stirling Solar gadget. It looks fragile. A 
storm would topple it or bend it out of shape. They say it has to be 
assembled in a factory to achieve the precision focus. So what happens when 
you leave it in the field for a year?


>Contrast this with my proposed 3.3 meter fresnel concentrator,
>with its lightweight frame, way cheaper optics and the fact that
>whatever is receiving the concenctrated solar energy can be placed
>on the ground.

Would it reach 400 deg C? Does it concentrate the light enough for this?

(Mike: Check out the kewel Fresnel collectors here: 
http://www.southeastgreenpower.net/2005/presentations/ChrisOBrien.pdf)

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 28 13:05:41 2005
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Subject: Re: Solar hydrogen production at only 400 deg C
Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 14:02:13 -0500
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Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Jed Rothwell wrote:
> 
> Where do you get the hydrocarbons? The exciting part of solar 
> concentrator is that the starting products are only water and sunlight.
>
Read their press release Jed. They have NOT YET done H2O.

Methane CH4 is a Hydrocarbon as is CxHy.

  http://www.shec-labs.com/press/releases/2005Jun1press.php

"SHEC-Labs' prototype solar hydrogen generator has now operated for approximately 1,200 hours with no noticeable coking or degradation of the catalysts. Hydrogen production is near the theoretical maximum at approximately 66% in the product gas stream with a 98.2% mol conversion of the feed methane. "

Had you read the NREL article posted on 09/27/05 regarding
the work of Steinberg & Dong (Brookhaven) 

http://www.ieahia.org/pdfs/hydrogen_biomass.pdf

and read their 1998 patent:  5,767,165
" Method for converting natural gas and carbon dioxide to methanol and reducing CO.sub.2 emissions"

You might be a bit less impressed with the "SHEC Miracle".

Frederick
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8
Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

<HTML style="FONT-SIZE: x-small; FONT-FAMILY: MS Sans Serif"><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=windows-1251">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV>Jed Rothwell wrote:</DIV>
<DIV>&gt; </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Courier New"><FONT size=3><FONT size=2>&gt; Where do you get the hydrocarbons? The exciting part of solar </FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Courier New"><FONT size=3><FONT size=2>&gt; concentrator</FONT> <TT>is that the starting products are only water and sunlight.</TT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Courier New"><FONT size=3><TT>&gt;</TT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Courier New"><FONT size=3><TT>Read their press release Jed. They have NOT YET <FONT size=2>done H2O.</FONT></TT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Courier New"><FONT size=3><TT></TT></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Courier New"><FONT size=3><TT>Methane CH4 is a Hydrocarbon as is CxHy.</TT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Courier New"><FONT size=3><TT></TT></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Courier New"><FONT size=3><TT></TT></FONT></FONT>&nbsp; <A href="http://www.shec-labs.com/press/releases/2005Jun1press.php" rel=nofollow>http://www.shec-labs.com/press/releases/2005Jun1press.php</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>"SHEC-Labs' prototype solar hydrogen generator has now operated for approximately 1,200 hours with no noticeable coking or degradation of the catalysts. Hydrogen production is near the theoretical maximum at approximately 66% in the product gas stream with a 98.2% mol conversion of the feed methane. "</DIV></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Had you read the NREL article posted on 09/27/05 regarding</DIV>
<DIV>the work of Steinberg &amp; Dong (Brookhaven) </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://www.ieahia.org/pdfs/hydrogen_biomass.pdf">http://www.ieahia.org/pdfs/hydrogen_biomass.pdf</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>and read their 1998 patent: &nbsp;5,767,165</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4><FONT size=2>" Method for converting natural gas and carbon dioxide to methanol and reducing CO.sub.2 emissions"</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>You might be a bit less impressed with the "SHEC Miracle".</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Frederick</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><BR>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8--


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 28 13:40:35 2005
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Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 16:39:33 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Solar hydrogen production at only 400 deg C
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Frederick Sparber wrote:

>Read their press release Jed. They have NOT YET done H2O.

Yeah, I see that. But it says: "The next generation of solar hydrogen 
involves direct water splitting with only water as the primary feed 
component." That's the ultimate goal.

I see also they are getting methane from landfills. That's great, but there 
are not enough landfills provide all the energy we need.


>Had you read the NREL article posted on 09/27/05 regarding
>the work of Steinberg & Dong (Brookhaven)
>
>http://www.ieahia.org/pdfs/hydrogen_biomass.pdf
>
>and read their 1998 patent:  5,767,165
>" Method for converting natural gas and carbon dioxide to methanol and 
>reducing CO.sub.2 emissions"
>
>You might be a bit less impressed with the "SHEC Miracle".

There is not enough biomass either. As I have pointed out previously, 
Pimentel and Pimentel show that we are now using twice as much fossil fuel 
energy as the entire production of US land-based biomass.

I agree we should tap the energy in things like garbage (landfills) and 
biomass. But there is not enough. The energy from wind and sunlight is 
thousands of of times greater than biomass.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 28 15:47:26 2005
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Jed Rothwell wrote:
>
> Frederick Sparber wrote:
>
> >Read their press release Jed. They have NOT YET done H2O.
>
> Yeah, I see that. But it says: "The next generation of solar hydrogen 
> involves direct water splitting with only water as the primary feed 
> component." That's the ultimate goal.
>
Ambitious goal, unless they are doing as the Steinberg & Dong  1998 patent:
5,767,165
suggests:
Quote.
" The molten materials most advantageously employed herein include molten
iron (Fe), molten tin (Sn) and molten salt (NaCL, NaF), with the iron or
tin being preferred since the difference in density between the molten
metals (iron and tin) and the carbon is greater than between the salt and
carbon materials, thereby making the physical separation of the carbon from
the molten material easier. In addition, it has been found that a molten
material reactor operating at or greater than 800.degree. C. and 1 to 10
atm. pressure results in almost complete decomposition of the methane of
more than 90% into carbon and hydrogen gas."

and are concurrently blowing CH4 and H2O (steam) through a bed of
molten Tin (mp ~230 C bp 2260 C) and making CO + 3 H2 followed
by the  CO + H2O ---.  CO2 + H2 .  Not bad.  Otherwise water is about  30%
dissociated
at 3,000 K, and Hess' Law still applies no mater what the temperature:

"the heat evolved or absorbed in a chemical process is the same whether the
process takes place in one or in several steps" 
>
> I see also they are getting methane from landfills. That's great, but
there 
> are not enough landfills provide all the energy we need. 
>
Plenty of Feedlots, Dairies, Poultry and Hog Farms to help out there.

Frederick
>
> - Jed
>



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 28 16:03:47 2005
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Frederick Sparber wrote:

> > I see also they are getting methane from landfills. That's great, but
>there
> > are not enough landfills provide all the energy we need.
> >
>Plenty of Feedlots, Dairies, Poultry and Hog Farms to help out there.

Sorry Fred, but the numbers simply do not add up. Compare the amount of 
energy you consume as food to the amount you consume as gasoline, natural 
gas and electricity. A person eats 2,000 kCal per day (8.4 MJ), and the 
average American consumes 928,000 btu per day (979 MJ) (Annual Energy 
Review, Table 1.5). Let us assume that in preparing food and rearing 
livestock we throw away 10 times more energy than we eat, in the form of 
garbage, and manure in feed lots. This is highly optimistic, because 
animals convert food into tissue and metabolism very efficiently. Even with 
this rough estimate, we are still off by an order of magnitude: 84 MJ 
versus 979 MJ.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 28 16:25:40 2005
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Subject: OT: Secondary Disaster hits New Orleans
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Who is Joe Allbaugh ?

Disaster Pimp, bag-man deluxe, or just a "very lucky" citizen?
http://slate.msn.com/id/2125756/

The Shaw Group - a Louisiana construction firm, represented by Joe
Allbaugh, President George Bush's former campaign manager, and
former head of FEMA - won a $100-million **no-bid** FEMA contract 
to work on a "variety of tasks," within hours of the Bush disaster 
relief announcement (as...with Tom's help there is no Delay).

No one seems to know what the $100-million worth of **no-bid** 
FEMA "tasks" consist of, other than personal enrichment and graft, 
nor why this huge contract was not let out for competitive 
bidding, as is normal even in disasters - nor why Allbaugh was 
even allowed to get his foot in the door - a seeming conflict of 
interest for the former FEMA head.

This is almost a joke, were it not a dead serious payback, at
great taxpayer expense, to a former Bush campaign manager.

Shaw Group also won a $100-million contract from the Army Corps of
Engineers to work on "de-watering New Orleans." The Corps says it
contacted four companies, and Shaw was the only one to bid. Check 
out Shaw's PAC contributions....

The other companies deny that any timely request for bids was made
by the Army. The $200 million net for no-bid work, arranged by
Allbaugh could probably be done for a quarter of that sum, given
normal competitive bidding, say the watchdog groups, who are never 
covered on the national News. That would be unpatriotic, no?

Allbaugh's fee for both - reported to be $30 million - off the 
top. Typical finder's fee according to insiders, nothing unusual 
???

Thank you very much, Dick and George. Yes Dick is in here with the 
payola also. Whenever taxpayer money  is there for the taking, 
Cheney's shadow is overlooking everyting.  Another Allbaugh 
client - KBR, a wholly owned subsidiary of Vice President Dick 
Cheney's former firm,  Halliburton Co. and an offshore tax haven - 
also was  hired immediately for Katrina work, ostensibly under an 
existing contract  with the Navy but with **no-bid** add-ons. The 
Navy even tried hard not to mention the name "Halliburton" until 
asked about who owned KBR.

"It appears the same cast of characters is raking up these
contracts that got money from the Iraq reconstruction," said Beth
Daley, spokeswoman for the Project on Government Oversight, a
Washington advocacy group.

Within days of this disaster the politicos have there hands in the 
taxpayers pocket. Do they have no shame?

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BlankJones,

Lets add a few to your list of moneybags deals.

ECC was reported to have received a $ 500 million contract by the =
Houston Chronicle. This is a privately held " small business enterprise" =
with hdqtrs in California but operates out of Houston.

Cruise ships receive a 250 million contact to provide rooms at $ 700 =
dollars per day.

go figure.


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<HTML><HEAD><TITLE id=3DridTitle>Blank</TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"><BASE=20
href=3D"file://E:\Program Files\Common Files\Microsoft =
Shared\Stationery\">
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	MARGIN-TOP: 25px; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 25px; COLOR: #000000; =
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<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2722" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY id=3DridBody bgColor=3D#ffffff=20
background=3Dcid:000701c5c489$041a8e20$f4027841 xptower>
<DIV>Jones,</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Lets add a few to your list of moneybags deals.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>ECC was reported to have received a $ 500 million contract by the =
Houston=20
Chronicle. This is a privately held " small business enterprise" with =
hdqtrs in=20
California but operates out of Houston.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Cruise ships receive a 250 million contact to provide rooms at $ =
700=20
dollars per day.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>go figure.</DIV>
<P>&nbsp;</P></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 28 17:16:00 2005
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Message-ID: <433B3205.8010302 iinet.net.au>
Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 10:15:01 +1000
From: Wesley Bruce <wesleybruce iinet.net.au>
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Alex Caliostro wrote:

> set the controls for the heart of the sun
>
> 2000 miles in a cramped position
>
> http://www.wsc.org.au/2005/competition/
>
> any of our friends downunder know whos leading
>
> _____
> -alex
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's 
> FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
>
It look like numa3 got there first. 
http://www.wsc.org.au/2005/on.the.road/map/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 28 17:40:12 2005
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 Jed Rothwell wrote:
>
> Frederick Sparber wrote:
>
> > > I see also they are getting methane from landfills. That's great, but
> >there
> > > are not enough landfills provide all the energy we need.
> > >
> >Plenty of Feedlots, Dairies, Poultry and Hog Farms to help out there.
>
> Sorry Fred, but the numbers simply do not add up. Compare the amount of 
> energy you consume as food to the amount you consume as gasoline, natural 
> gas and electricity. A person eats 2,000 kCal per day (8.4 MJ), and the 
> average American consumes 928,000 btu per day (979 MJ) (Annual Energy 
> Review, Table 1.5). Let us assume that in preparing food and rearing 
> livestock we throw away 10 times more energy than we eat, in the form of 
> garbage, and manure in feed lots. This is highly optimistic, because 
> animals convert food into tissue and metabolism very efficiently. Even
with 
> this rough estimate, we are still off by an order of magnitude: 84 MJ 
> versus 979 MJ.
>
I said Help Out, Jed.  Almost all of the farm wastes that undergo anerobic
bacterial
digestion end up adding to the methane/CO2 burden of the atmosphere.  Why
not get the
energy from it (Bio Gas) and let the carbon-neutral CO2 and the H2O go back
into the cycle?

A primer on what a low cost  Bio Gas Generator can produce whether on the
family farm or
an agro-business air-groundwater polluter:

http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/farmmgt/05002.html
And:
http://www.csu.org/environment/energy/
"Bio-gas is derived from digesting biosolids from our wastewater treatment
plant. Colorado Springs Utilities uses the gas produced from this process
to run four boilers and two combustion turbines. Bio-gas heat energy
produced at Colorado Springs Utilities produced enough bio-gas heat energy
during 2001 to heat approximately 3,600 households for a full year."

Ever been in Colorado Springs in the winter?  :-)

Frederick
>
> - Jed
>



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Jones Beene writes:

"Allbaugh could probably be done for a quarter of that sum, given
normal competitive bidding, say the watchdog groups, who are never 
covered on the national News. That would be unpatriotic, no?"

What do you mean "never covered"?!? Don't you read the comic section? See:

http://doonesbury.msn.com/strip/dailydose/index.html

- Jed



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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jed Rothwell" <jedrothwell mindspring.com>

> What do you mean "never covered"?!? Don't you read the comic 
> section? See:

> http://doonesbury.msn.com/strip/dailydose/index.html


Yup, Hunter (my kind of former environmental entrepreneur) sez, 
from beyond the pale, there's "No bidness like No-bidness...

....couldn't have said it better myself... 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 28 20:05:10 2005
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
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Subject: Re: deceptively simple question
Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 13:04:14 +1000
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Craig Haynie's message of Tue, 27 Sep 2005 18:37:32
-0500:
Hi,
[snip]

Which is all very nice, but still doesn't address my initial
question:

Why are *high* pressure areas warm, and *low* pressure areas cold?
(If low pressure regions are caused by rising *warm* air, then
they shouldn't be *cold*, they should be warm).


>It's a bit different than that. Cold air drifts outward from the pole and
>settles downward as cold, dry, air, pushing outward. Warm, moist, air is
>pushed upward ahead of the advancing cold air. As the air rises, it
>condenses, which releases heat, and pulls the air up even farther, creating
>a low pressure area along the frontal boundary.
>
>Additionally, when the cold air pushes toward the jet-stream, such low
>pressure at the frontal boundary can be exagerated by the low pressure
>above, from the jet stream, creating a low pressure center which will follow
>the jet stream, trailing a cold front and a warm front outward from it.
>
>Craig Haynie (Houston)
>
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

In a town full of candlestick makers, 
everyone lives in the light,
In a town full of thieves, 
there is only one candle, 
and everyone lives in the night.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 28 20:57:19 2005
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Ugghh.

Maybe it's better that the government and big business ignored cold fusion 
if this is what happens with the boys in the gubbymint.
Maybe it will be better after all, for the common man and woman if cold 
fusion technology comes up through the private sector.

And the Tertiary Disaster? When the American economy ends up paying for 
this....kiss your discretionary spending goodbye.

Steve

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From: Standing Bear <rockcast earthlink.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Off topic - US climate loonies ...Ghandi was lucky
Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 00:24:57 -0400
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On Tuesday 27 September 2005 00:14, Michael Foster wrote:
> >>You can't make a phenomenon happen by popular vote, going on a march,
> >>praying or endorsement by pop idol. It just isn't like that.
>
> John Fields wrote:
> ---
>
> > Wrong. Take a look at Ghandi and what he forced the UK to do
> > without his use of physical force.
>
> Sorry, I just can't let this one go, no matter how far off topic it
> is.  About ten years after Adolf von Baeyer first synthesized indigo
> dye in 1883, it came into commercial production. This tipped the
> balance for the British Raj.  India as a colony was no longer a
> profitable business.  Further, India no longer had enough stategic
> value to continue to subsidize the British presence there.
>
> The continued prestige of having India as a colony was wearing thin,
> considering the expense.  The British aristocracy and the army liked
> having it around, but more practical minds were looking for a way out.
>
> Clearly, if the British had any real reason to stay, they would have.
> And let's face it; it was the British.  It wasn't the Russians or the
> Spanish or the French, who probably would have just shot anybody acting
> like Ghandi and been done with it. Ghandi knew this and took advantage
> of it.  Give the British themselves some credit.

About face.  Ghandi was lucky!  Just 80 years earlier a far different Britain
in 1857 conducted mass executions of all who would stand in their way, 
especially if those waystanders were not white Anglo-Saxon protestants.  
One picture showed ranks of cannon, each with a Sepoy rebel prisoner tied 
across the muzzle, just before those guns were fired with grisly results.



>
> And ask yourself this.  How many people died in the violence of the
> partition of India and Pakistan following Ghandi's "success"?
>

Most of those deaths were caused by Moslem extremists rioting in
uncontrollable bloodlust.  Christians have had their pogroms as well.
The million or so deaths then probably prevented a larger conflagration
later......or maybe just let off some pressure and postponed the next
bacchanal to a later date.  That area has known religious war for
thousands of years.





> It seems we tend to make saints of people who accomplish a goal while
> killing a lot of people, and at the same time we virtually ignore those
> who accomplish an equally laudible goal with no killing at all. As an
> example, take a look at the Lincoln Memorial.  There sits Abraham Lincoln,
> resembling for all the world a martyred saint.  Yet, even though we agree
> with what he did, he was responsible for the death of more Americans than
> anyone else in our short history.  I suspect if he had pulled the whole
> thing off with some deft politics, people would still be arguing about what
> a terrible president he was.
>
No amount of 'deft politics' were going to deter some of the most ruthless and
vicious gangsters on the face of the planet at that time, southern 'plantation
owners',  from practicing their peculiar institution.  The rape, murder, 
torture
and enforced servitude held over from pre-colonial times could and would
know only one solution.  Those southerners and their culture only listened
and understood force, the force of blood and iron that exterminated not only
the slave holders, but also the records that could have been used for a later
'restoration' with its attendant wave of retribution killings.  It took also 
the destruction of the whole culture and institution of slavery, concubinage
and human degradation to change the old 'south'.  Parts of this 'south' are
unrepentant still, as many southerners yearned to become part of this
idle rich gangster class and this 'hope' lives on in the peculiar habit of 
many 'southerners' to repeatedly watch pandering films like 'Gone With
The Wind', over and over and over again.  It lives on in 'southerners' 
'standing up for 'Dixie' like it was a national anthem at school sports 
events.  It yet lives on in small towns across the south where poor white
people have been forced to take the place of freed and departed blacks
at the bottom of the social scale.  The 'south' is a class stratified society
and only time and mass migration and self awareness and class action
among those lower classes will mitigate that.   If one doubts, then one should
go to a local large university library and read the 1867 Congressional Report
on the investigation of the Ku Klux Klan.  This document is even larger than
the Warren Report.  It dealt with a serious moral and political issue, not 
a whitewash of a CIA/FBI action that eliminated a president that evidently
philandered with gangsters molls.  That issue was how to put a nation
together that had not realized how far apart it had sectionally drifted, and
more specifically how a chance organized social club among college
students wanting a Greek letter fraternity grew into a murderous political
tool for suppression of not only freed black people, but also poor white
people.  Oddly enough, most of the most racist people in the 'south'
are those poor white people who would have more to gain from finding
common cause with the black people for the mutual benefit of both.
  Mr Lincoln did what he had to do and did not shrink from it.  People
died!  Such was the price of unity and the prevention of a larger, later
conflagration.  Suppose the nation divided then and there.  Suppose
later in World War II, the surviving 'south' would have found in Hitler
its natural ally and ideological brother.  How many would have died then.
Especially if the 'south' also possessed nuclear weapons.  Those southern
upper classes were evil;  no one ever said they were stupid.  I grew up there 
and later left.  I know those people as they were thirty years ago.   Himmler
and Eichmann would have loved them while Speer would have cursed them
for laziness.



Standing Bear

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From: Standing Bear <rockcast earthlink.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: aussie solar challenge underway
Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 00:28:35 -0400
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On Wednesday 28 September 2005 20:15, Wesley Bruce wrote:
> Alex Caliostro wrote:
> > set the controls for the heart of the sun
> >
> > 2000 miles in a cramped position
> >
> > http://www.wsc.org.au/2005/competition/
> >
> > any of our friends downunder know whos leading
> >
> > _____
> > -alex


You mean a baked position.  I mean really hot!  They cross the Gibson 
Desert in those coffins somebody is going to get a heat stroke, maybe
quite a few somebodies

Standing Bear

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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: O.T. Strange Mountains
Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 00:48:40 -0400
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On Wednesday 28 September 2005 12:07, RC Macaulay wrote:
> Fred, so true.
> I once got in trouble in New Mexico. Locals there hate Texans. I remarked
> that there wasn't anyone living in New Mexico except indians until we
> chased all the horse thieves, cattel rustlers and stagecoach robbers across
> the border. Now we send them to Washington where they can practice their
> natural profession. Richard
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Frederick Sparber
>   To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>   Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2005 8:21 AM
>   Subject: Re: O.T. Strange Mountains
>
>   Richard Macaulay wrote:
>   > Speaking of Arkansas and Texas, the closer you get between these two
>   > state, the more weird the geology and > the folks become.. lotsa  feet
>   > with 7 toes back in the woods.
>
>   The only strange people I met there, had relocated there from Texas.  
> :-)
>
>   Al Capp must have researched the area thoroughly before drawing Daisy
> Mae's lines.
>
>   We had to be cautious about disturbing the local Ethanol Industry (ADM
> has nothing on these guys) lest we end up looking like Fearless Fosdick
> after a run-in with bad guys.
>
>   http://www.lil-abner.com/daisymae.html
>
>   Where are those lovable Shmoos?
>
>   Are they waiting for Cold Fusion Utopia?
>
>   http://www.lil-abner.com/shmoo.html
>
>   Frederick
>
>   > Richard

I like it.  I used to drive a truck years ago, and Texas and Texans run the 
gamut.  One place that I learned to go quietly through was Waco.  I used
to call it 'Wacko', because that is the 'normal' mental state of the average
resident there.  I do not know if it was the water or something in the ground
that those folks eat, but everybody there is eye rollin, snot flyin, arm 
flailin crazy.  One learned to listen to the CB for all the locals 
threatening to kill each other or steal their wives or whatever, so that
if it sounded close, you got the hell out of there unless there were more
crazies somewhere else.  You also watched the road with BOTH eyes as
the drivers all seemed road raged homicidal maniacs.  No joke, that place
is really one that the world would have been better off without.  Passed
one scene where a cop had pulled over an automobile.  Make that several
cops.  They were busy 'searching' the wife's possible places to 'hide' 
whatever one could hide between ones legs while holding guns on the
husband.  Yep, just quietly drive through Wacko whenever you find yourself
there for whatever unlucky reason.  Thankfully they had'nt discovered at
the time that truck drivers usually carried large amounts of cash for fuel
purchases.  That may not be the case now.  And watch for the cannon
ball races down the interstate on the wrong side at night, too, when the
local hicks decide to 'have a little fun'.     Now I find out that our 
President has a ranch there.  Guess that explains a lot.  Everybody in
that place was drunk or getting that way.  My dog Dragon, a good judge of
character if ever there was one, stayed at a constant growling alert from
20 miles away from it til it was 30 miles behind us.  Kept the windows up
and the air conditioning on high to at least keep him a little calm.

Standing Bear

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From: Standing Bear <rockcast earthlink.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: The Grip of Gas
Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 00:56:53 -0400
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On Tuesday 27 September 2005 17:47, Jed Rothwell wrote:
> Michael Foster wrote:
> >I have  a number of personal observations that seem to illuminate what you
> >are talking about.  I noticed that the general level of traffic in the Los
> >Angeles
> >area dropped off rather dramatically when the price of gasoline exceeded
> >about $2.50/gal. . . .
>
> Yes, there is anecdotal evidence like that coming in from all over. And it
> is not merely an impression. Actual consumption dropped from 9.4 million
> gallons to 8.8 million gallons. (See the N. Y. Times article I referenced.)
>
> Some other straws in the wind: An Atlanta GM car dealership recently had
> the compact cars moved out in front of the lot with large, handmade signs
> saying "30 MPG!" Toyota is bombarding cable channels with advertisements
> featuring their high MPG models, including the Prius, again with big
> letters announcing "35 MPG" and "60 MPG" (way ahead of GM). These are
> cheesy advertisements that look like they were ginned up in a hurry, with a
> soundtrack of children cheering in the background.
>
> >The traffic level seemed to recover  about two weeks after that.
>
> Unfortunately, consumers may get used to these prices and go back to their
> old habits. This will do nothing to solve the problem, and it will suck a
> great discretionary income out of the economy. It works like the parable of
> the frog in hot water (water that is gradually heated). PLEASE NOTE that is
> merely a parable, no more true than Aesop's fables about talking foxes. A
> real frog will jump out of the pot as soon as the water becomes
> uncomfortably warm. People, on the other hand . . .
>
> I hate to see the public suffer, especially poor people who have to commute
> to work in old gas guzzlers, but for the good of the country and the
> environment I wish the government would impose a tax to raise the price to
> $4 per gallon permanently. The tax would increase to $1.50 if the base
> price falls to $2.50. I wish the leaders would tell the citizens that oil
> is running out, and it is time to make sacrifices and make changes. Plus it
> should say we can solve this problem with new technology such as plug-in
> hybrids, we do not have to wait 40 years for hydrogen cars.
>
> Even the oil company advertisements now say that we are extracting oil
> twice as fast as we are finding new reserves, and I think they are lying.
> As others have pointed out here, OPEC members and major oil companies are
> probably exaggerating reserves by a large margin. OPEC members do this so
> that OPEC will give them a larger market allocation, and oil companies do
> it to prop up their stock prices. There have been no substantial
> discoveries of oil in the lower 48 states since the 1930s, and there never
> will be. There is no more oil waiting to be found anywhere on earth. Of
> course improved extraction techniques will stretch out supplies.
>
> - Jed

All that four dollar gas price is going to do is guarantee a depression and
radicalization of our politics as the poor finally are driven to find their 
voice.  The better solution and a better one for political stability is to 
impose rationing.  Another solution would be to follow the Mexican
example and nationalize the resource and its distribution networks, as
 the industry has shown itself rapaciousely avaricious on too many
occasions.  Once nationalized, the problem of fair distribution can be
solved by rationing. We could encourage the sidelining of gas guzzlers
by taxing new large vehicles like SUVs.  The old ones will wear out in
time and sideline themselves.

Standing Bear

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OrionWorks wrote:

>I can't help but wonder if the new spiral shaped wind turbines recently
>brought to our attention like the ones RC Macaulay showed us at:
>
>http://www.windside.com/index.html

And Jed Rothwell responded;

I wouldn't know . . . but from what I have seen many serious accidents are
caused by towers collapsing and by electric fires. Both would happen with
the spiral turbines. I suppose the only common accident that would not
occur would be falling turbine blades.

The design looks like a turbine called the Darhelius. I'm sure that 
the machine is more stable, but as I understand it, the design is not 
particularly efficient as an energy collecting source. The amount of 
area presented to the wind is rather small, compared with a standard 
prop design.

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--============_-1084144826==_ma============
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Vortexians;

The cold fusion theorist, David Moon sent me the following paper and 
asked me to post it on Vortex.

                                      Microwaves, should we mind?

Microwave ovens warm food because the microwave energy resonates with 
natural oscillations of water molecules in the food, allowing maximum 
absorption of energy which heats the water and cooks the food. 
Microwaves are that part of the electromagnetic spectrum having a 
frequency of 1 to 300 G Hz. Cell phones operate at near - microwave 
frequency, almost 1 G Hz. some may be further into the microwave band.

In 1991 researchers at the Naval Research Laboratory in Washington, D 
C, directed a beam of low - energy (350 volts) deuterium ions at a 
target made of a thin foil of titanium metal. The ion beam was 
generated using an Electron Cyclotron Resonance (ECR), microwave 
plasms source. The ECR operated at 2.45 G Hz. The researchers 
measured a significant rate of emissions of charged particles (mostly 
tritons at 5.45 - 6.15 Me V) from the target. However when a Kaufmann 
10 n  source was used instead, results were not nearly as good. 
Therefore, my cold fusion theory predicted that microwave energy 
would increase the NRL reaction that most other cold fusion - type 
reactions through the mechanism that involves long chains of 
oscillating deuterons in the surface layers of the metal lattice.

In 1984, Edmund Storms (in a newsletter published by Mitch Swartz) 
stated that research showed microwaves do enhance cold fusion.

Therefore, in addition to the usual chemical and physical effects of 
microwaves, we now have the possibility that microwaves may cause 
some nuclear reactions, in the human body as well.

Is the frequent use of cell phones by any one person advisable? 
Although cell phones and portable phones function at relatively low 
power (maybe .25 - .30 watts), I'm not sure that physiological 
effects of long - term cell phone use have been thoroughly 
investigated.

At our home, we use a portable phone that happens to operate at a 
frequency of 2.4 G Hz! Am I doing even slight damage in my head? 
Should I be concerned, am I "nuking" my brain, or causing other ill 
effects?

The cell phone industry is huge. I am not suggesting that brain 
tumors, for example, or head artery problems (as I suffered in May 
2005, and was in the Hennepin County Medical Center in Minneapolis 
for 12 days) can be caused or triggered by use of cell phones or 
portable phones. One of my neurosurgeons at HCMC said he is not as 
concerned about cell phones (as I brought up the microwave subject 
with him) but he is apprehensive about microwave ovens, which operate 
at 900 - 1300 watts. He does not stand in front of a microwave oven 
when it is in use. He told me that a medical condition called CNS 
lymphoma has markedly increased since microwave ovens came into 
widespread use around 1980*. Normal precautions, therefore are 
prudent.

*However, no scientific study of a correlation has been done.

--============_-1084144826==_ma============
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<!doctype html public "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<html><head><style type="text/css"><!--
blockquote, dl, ul, ol, li { padding-top: 0 ; padding-bottom: 0 }
 --></style><title>David Moon's paper on
microwaves</title></head><body>
<div>Vortexians;</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>The cold fusion theorist, David Moon sent me the following paper
and asked me to post it on Vortex.</div>
<div><u><br></u></div>
<div><u
>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span
></span
>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span
></span
>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span
></span>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Microwaves, should we mind?</u></div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Microwave ovens warm food because the microwave energy resonates
with natural oscillations of water molecules in the food, allowing
maximum absorption of energy which heats the water and cooks the food.
Microwaves are that part of the electromagnetic spectrum having a
frequency of 1 to 300 G Hz. Cell phones operate at near - microwave
frequency, almost 1 G Hz. some may be further into the microwave
band.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>In 1991 researchers at the Naval Research Laboratory in
Washington, D C, directed a beam of low - energy (350 volts) deuterium
ions at a target made of a thin foil of titanium metal. The ion beam
was generated using an Electron Cyclotron Resonance (ECR), microwave
plasms source. The ECR operated at 2.45 G Hz. The researchers measured
a significant rate of emissions of charged particles (mostly tritons
at 5.45 - 6.15 Me V) from the target. However when a Kaufmann 10 n&nbsp;
source was used instead, results were not nearly as good. Therefore,
my cold fusion theory predicted that microwave energy would increase
the NRL reaction that most other cold fusion - type reactions through
the mechanism that involves long chains of oscillating deuterons in
the surface layers of the metal lattice.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>In 1984, Edmund Storms (in a newsletter published by Mitch
Swartz) stated that research showed microwaves do enhance cold
fusion.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Therefore, in addition to the usual chemical and physical effects
of microwaves, we now have the possibility that microwaves may cause
some nuclear reactions, in the human body as well.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Is the frequent use of cell phones by any one person advisable?
Although cell phones and portable phones function at relatively low
power (maybe .25 - .30 watts), I'm not sure that physiological effects
of long - term cell phone use have been thoroughly investigated.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>At our home, we use a portable phone that happens to operate at a
frequency of 2.4 G Hz! Am I doing even slight damage in my head?
Should I be concerned, am I &quot;nuking&quot; my brain, or causing
other ill effects?</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>The cell phone industry is huge. I am not suggesting that brain
tumors, for example, or head artery problems (as I suffered in May
2005, and was in the Hennepin County Medical Center in Minneapolis for
12 days) can be caused or triggered by use of cell phones or portable
phones. One of my neurosurgeons at HCMC said he is not as concerned
about cell phones (as I brought up the microwave subject with him) but
he is apprehensive about microwave ovens, which operate at 900 - 1300
watts. He does not stand in front of a microwave oven when it is in
use. He told me that a medical condition called CNS lymphoma has
markedly increased since microwave ovens came into widespread use
around 1980*. Normal precautions, therefore are prudent.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>*However, no scientific study of a correlation has been
done.</div>
<div><br></div>
</body>
</html>
--============_-1084144826==_ma============--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 29 00:14:54 2005
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: hydrogen
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Frederick Sparber posted;

As to storage of cheap hydrogen, reacting it with CO2 to make methanol to
use in ICEs and fuel cells is the most practical near-term option.

3 H2 + CO2 <---> CH3OH + H2O

I agree. a C to C AM interviewee said that 3% hydrogen will escape 
from the best containers. Given this problem and the energy required 
for compression, I've come to the same conclusion.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 29 01:57:38 2005
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Subject: Re: Current Methanol Production & Hydrogen
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IOW,  why 3 H2 + CO2 <----> CH3OH + H2O is the industry standard.

CH3OH (32 lbs) + H2O (18 lbs)  makes a good antifreeze ( ~ minus 65 deg F) motor fuel.


http://www.chemicals-technology.com/projects/sipchem/
"The 1 million tpa methanol production plant is being built by Japan's Chyioda Corporation. The company will execute the project in association with its Saudi Arabian affiliate Chiyoda Petrostar Limited. The lump sum turnkey contract, which includes utilities and offsites, is valued at $240 million. Construction of the production plant began in May 2003. The facility is due to start up in the first quarter of 2005. 'Off-plot' facilities to support the project, such as main power supply and sea water cooling, are due to be completed in the second half of 2004.
Natural gas, the primary feedstock for methanol production, will be supplied by Saudi Arabian Oil Company (Aramco)."

http://static.highbeam.com/x/xinhuanewsagency/october272003/largemethanolproductionbasetobebuiltineastchina/


" HEFEI, Oct 25, 2003 (Xinhua via COMTEX) 
China's largest methanol production base, with a planned capacity of 2 million tons a year, will be built in the eastern province of Anhui. 
The feasibility report has passed assessment by an expert panel, who suggested the provincial government start construction as soon as possible, sources said Saturday. 
The first phase construction of the methanol project will cost 1.8 billion yuan (217 million US dollars), with an initial capacity of 500,000 million tons a year. 
Covering a total area of 41 hectares, the project will be financed by seven mainland and Hong Kong partners, including Hunan Torch Investment Co., Ltd. It will be located close to the Huaibei Coal Field, one of the major coal mining areas in east China. 
The coal field has a long-term reserve of up to 35 billion tons and its annual capacity stands at 31 million tons. The methanol project will have a convenient and sufficient...."

Is that Hunan Torch or Human Torch Investment Co? 


http://www.marathon.com/Our_Business/Marathon_Oil_Company/Integrated_Natural_Gas/Methanol/
" Methanol production in Equatorial Guinea began in 2001. Feedstock for the Methanol plant is supplied from a portion of Marathon’s natural gas production in the Alba field. Approximately 120 million cubic feet of gas per day remaining after liquid petroleum gases are extracted is processed, producing around 2,500 metric tons of methanol per day. Production in 2003 totaled 836,000 gross metric tons (376,000 net metric tons). Production from the plant is exported to customers in Europe and the U.S."
Frederick
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8
Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

<HTML style="FONT-SIZE: x-small; FONT-FAMILY: MS Sans Serif"><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=windows-1251">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<P>
<DIV>IOW, &nbsp;why 3 H2 + CO2 &lt;----&gt; CH3OH + H2O is the industry standard.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>CH3OH (32 lbs) + H2O (18 lbs)&nbsp; makes a good antifreeze ( ~ minus 65 deg F) motor fuel.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://www.chemicals-technology.com/projects/sipchem/">http://www.chemicals-technology.com/projects/sipchem/</A></DIV>
<DIV>
<P>"The 1 million tpa methanol production plant is being built by Japan's Chyioda Corporation. The company will execute the project in association with its Saudi Arabian affiliate Chiyoda Petrostar Limited. The lump sum turnkey contract, which includes utilities and offsites, is valued at $240 million. Construction of the production plant began in May 2003. The facility is due to start up in the first quarter of 2005. 'Off-plot' facilities to support the project, such as main power supply and sea water cooling, are due to be completed in the second half of 2004.</P>
<P>Natural gas, the primary feedstock for methanol production, will be supplied by Saudi Arabian Oil Company (Aramco)."</P></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://static.highbeam.com/x/xinhuanewsagency/october272003/largemethanolproductionbasetobebuiltineastchina/">http://static.highbeam.com/x/xinhuanewsagency/october272003/largemethanolproductionbasetobebuiltineastchina/</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>" HEFEI, Oct 25, 2003 (Xinhua via COMTEX) <BR>China's largest methanol production base, with a planned capacity of 2 million tons a year, will be built in the eastern province of Anhui. <BR>The feasibility report has passed assessment by an expert panel, who suggested the provincial government start construction as soon as possible, sources said Saturday. <BR>The first phase construction of the methanol project will cost 1.8 billion yuan (217 million US dollars), with an initial capacity of 500,000 million tons a year. <BR>Covering a total area of 41 hectares, the project will be financed by seven mainland and Hong Kong partners, including Hunan Torch Investment Co., Ltd. It will be located close to the Huaibei Coal Field, one of the major coal mining areas in east China. <BR>The coal field has a long-term reserve of up to 35 billion tons and its annual capacity stands at 31 million tons. The methanol project will have a convenient and sufficient...."</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Is that Hunan Torch or Human Torch Investment Co? </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://www.marathon.com/Our_Business/Marathon_Oil_Company/Integrated_Natural_Gas/Methanol/">http://www.marathon.com/Our_Business/Marathon_Oil_Company/Integrated_Natural_Gas/Methanol/</A></DIV>
<P>" Methanol production in Equatorial Guinea began in 2001. Feedstock for the Methanol plant is supplied from a portion of Marathon’s natural gas production in the Alba field. Approximately 120 million cubic feet of gas per day remaining after liquid petroleum gases are extracted is processed, <STRONG>producing around 2,500 metric tons of methanol per day</STRONG>.&nbsp;Production in 2003 totaled 836,000 gross metric tons (376,000 net metric tons). Production from the plant is&nbsp;exported to&nbsp;customers in Europe and the U.S."</P>
<P>Frederick</P></BODY></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 29 02:10:04 2005
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Subject: Re: The Grip of Gas
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Standing Bear wrote:

> All that four dollar gas price is going to do is guarantee a depression and
> radicalization of our politics as the poor finally are driven to find their
> voice. The better solution and a better one for political stability is to
> impose rationing. Another solution would be to follow the Mexican
> example and nationalize the resource and its distribution networks, as
> the industry has shown itself rapaciousely avaricious on too many
> occasions. Once nationalized, the problem of fair distribution can be
> solved by rationing. We could encourage the sidelining of gas guzzlers
> by taxing new large vehicles like SUVs. The old ones will wear out in
> time and sideline themselves.

Excuse me while I run outside to wave my little worker's hat and sing
another rousing chorus of the Internationale.  Yes, and that's why they
are in a severe depression in Europe with the gasoline at seven per gal.
And yes, let's nationalize those greedy bastards like the Mexicans did.
The resulting red-hot economy in Mexico is already having an effect here
in the U.S. with millions of Americans pouring across the border into
that Mexican land of prosperity.

-Yippee Coyote 



_______________________________________________
Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 29 02:28:47 2005
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Hello Jed!

> [...] I wish the government would impose a tax to raise
> the price to
> $4 per gallon permanently. The tax would increase to $1.50 if
> the base
> price falls to $2.50. I wish the leaders would tell the
> citizens that oil
> is running out, and it is time to make sacrifices and make
> changes. [...]

I am curious why you want to do this. The market will do this naturally as
the supply of oil begins to fail to keep pace with demand. Why rush the
inevitable?

Craig Haynie (Houston)


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Subject: Re: Off topic - US climate loonies ...Ghandi was lucky
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Standing Bear wrote:

> About face. Ghandi was lucky! Just 80 years earlier a far different Britain
> in 1857 conducted mass executions of all who would stand in their way,
> especially if those waystanders were not white Anglo-Saxon protestants.
> One picture showed ranks of cannon, each with a Sepoy rebel prisoner tied
> across the muzzle, just before those guns were fired with grisly results.

Yes, this is my exact point. But Ghandi wasn't lucky, he knew exactly what
he was doing.  No one makes a ridiculous spectacle of himself by going
around in a diaper, unless he knows he can use the PR to gain an advantage.


>> And ask yourself this. How many people died in the violence of the
>> partition of India and Pakistan following Ghandi's "success"?


> Most of those deaths were caused by Moslem extremists rioting in
> uncontrollable bloodlust. Christians have had their pogroms as well.
> The million or so deaths then probably prevented a larger conflagration
> later......or maybe just let off some pressure and postponed the next
> bacchanal to a later date. That area has known religious war for
> thousands of years.

You make my point again.  The average Indian was likely better off under
the British Raj than under the local home-grown Moguls and other native
despots. If the British had been allowed to withdraw in a more orderly
fashion, without the intervention of Ghandi, this violence might have
been avoided. Ghandi's absurd idea that somehow everybody would just sing
cumbaya and get along just fine after the British left, resulted in an
orgy of murder and mayhem beyond imagining.  But you know, he was a saint,
it wasn't really his fault. He didn't mean it, poor baby.


>> It seems we tend to make saints of people who accomplish a goal while
>> killing a lot of people, and at the same time we virtually ignore those
>> who accomplish an equally laudible goal with no killing at all. As an
>> example, take a look at the Lincoln Memorial. There sits Abraham Lincoln,
>> resembling for all the world a martyred saint. Yet, even though we agree
>> with what he did, he was responsible for the death of more Americans than
>> anyone else in our short history. I suspect if he had pulled the whole
>> thing off with some deft politics, people would still be arguing about what
>> a terrible president he was.

> No amount of 'deft politics' were going to deter some of the most ruthless and
> vicious gangsters on the face of the planet at that time, southern 'plantation
> owners', from practicing their peculiar institution. 

I don't argue that Lincoln could have avoided what he did. I merely argue
that in the unlikely event that had he been able to accomplish his goal of
keeping the United States united without all the bloodshed, we would still
be arguing about what an awful president he was. 
Massive killing = sainthood.

M.


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http://www.csgnetwork.com/aviationconverters.html

"Some of these are directly related to the aviation community and some are of indirect interest"

I like this one, especially for finding out how much stuff my garage will hold.
http://www.csgnetwork.com/longlatdistance.html
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<DIV>I like this one, especially for finding out how much stuff my garage will hold.</DIV>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 29 03:42:25 2005
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High taxation and big government spending = corruption. What a surprise.

M.

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 29 04:34:32 2005
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Subject: Re: Secondary Disaster hits New Orleans
Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 07:41:19 -0400
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Between listening to talk radio and reading posts from this group, my head
is spinning.

Will the real planet earth please stand up, so I can figure out which one
I'm on!

Jeff

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jones Beene" <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
To: "vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2005 7:24 PM
Subject: OT: Secondary Disaster hits New Orleans


> Who is Joe Allbaugh ?
>
> Disaster Pimp, bag-man deluxe, or just a "very lucky" citizen?
> http://slate.msn.com/id/2125756/
>
> The Shaw Group - a Louisiana construction firm, represented by Joe
> Allbaugh, President George Bush's former campaign manager, and
> former head of FEMA - won a $100-million **no-bid** FEMA contract
> to work on a "variety of tasks," within hours of the Bush disaster
> relief announcement (as...with Tom's help there is no Delay).
>
> No one seems to know what the $100-million worth of **no-bid**
> FEMA "tasks" consist of, other than personal enrichment and graft,
> nor why this huge contract was not let out for competitive
> bidding, as is normal even in disasters - nor why Allbaugh was
> even allowed to get his foot in the door - a seeming conflict of
> interest for the former FEMA head.
>
> This is almost a joke, were it not a dead serious payback, at
> great taxpayer expense, to a former Bush campaign manager.
>
> Shaw Group also won a $100-million contract from the Army Corps of
> Engineers to work on "de-watering New Orleans." The Corps says it
> contacted four companies, and Shaw was the only one to bid. Check
> out Shaw's PAC contributions....
>
> The other companies deny that any timely request for bids was made
> by the Army. The $200 million net for no-bid work, arranged by
> Allbaugh could probably be done for a quarter of that sum, given
> normal competitive bidding, say the watchdog groups, who are never
> covered on the national News. That would be unpatriotic, no?
>
> Allbaugh's fee for both - reported to be $30 million - off the
> top. Typical finder's fee according to insiders, nothing unusual
> ???
>
> Thank you very much, Dick and George. Yes Dick is in here with the
> payola also. Whenever taxpayer money  is there for the taking,
> Cheney's shadow is overlooking everyting.  Another Allbaugh
> client - KBR, a wholly owned subsidiary of Vice President Dick
> Cheney's former firm,  Halliburton Co. and an offshore tax haven -
> also was  hired immediately for Katrina work, ostensibly under an
> existing contract  with the Navy but with **no-bid** add-ons. The
> Navy even tried hard not to mention the name "Halliburton" until
> asked about who owned KBR.
>
> "It appears the same cast of characters is raking up these
> contracts that got money from the Iraq reconstruction," said Beth
> Daley, spokeswoman for the Project on Government Oversight, a
> Washington advocacy group.
>
> Within days of this disaster the politicos have there hands in the
> taxpayers pocket. Do they have no shame?
>
>


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Subject: Re: The Grip of Gas
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Standing Bear" <rockcast earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2005 12:56 AM
Subject: Re: The Grip of Gas


> On Tuesday 27 September 2005 17:47, Jed Rothwell wrote:
> > Michael Foster wrote:
> > >I have  a number of personal observations that seem to illuminate what
you
> > >are talking about.  I noticed that the general level of traffic in the
Los
> > >Angeles
> > >area dropped off rather dramatically when the price of gasoline
exceeded
> > >about $2.50/gal. . . .
> >
> > Yes, there is anecdotal evidence like that coming in from all over. And
it
> > is not merely an impression. Actual consumption dropped from 9.4 million
> > gallons to 8.8 million gallons. (See the N. Y. Times article I
referenced.)
> >
> > Some other straws in the wind: An Atlanta GM car dealership recently had
> > the compact cars moved out in front of the lot with large, handmade
signs
> > saying "30 MPG!" Toyota is bombarding cable channels with advertisements
> > featuring their high MPG models, including the Prius, again with big
> > letters announcing "35 MPG" and "60 MPG" (way ahead of GM). These are
> > cheesy advertisements that look like they were ginned up in a hurry,
with a
> > soundtrack of children cheering in the background.
> >
> > >The traffic level seemed to recover  about two weeks after that.
> >
> > Unfortunately, consumers may get used to these prices and go back to
their
> > old habits. This will do nothing to solve the problem, and it will suck
a
> > great discretionary income out of the economy. It works like the parable
of
> > the frog in hot water (water that is gradually heated). PLEASE NOTE that
is
> > merely a parable, no more true than Aesop's fables about talking foxes.
A
> > real frog will jump out of the pot as soon as the water becomes
> > uncomfortably warm. People, on the other hand . . .
> >
> > I hate to see the public suffer, especially poor people who have to
commute
> > to work in old gas guzzlers, but for the good of the country and the
> > environment I wish the government would impose a tax to raise the price
to
> > $4 per gallon permanently. The tax would increase to $1.50 if the base
> > price falls to $2.50. I wish the leaders would tell the citizens that
oil
> > is running out, and it is time to make sacrifices and make changes. Plus
it
> > should say we can solve this problem with new technology such as plug-in
> > hybrids, we do not have to wait 40 years for hydrogen cars.
> >
> > Even the oil company advertisements now say that we are extracting oil
> > twice as fast as we are finding new reserves, and I think they are
lying.
> > As others have pointed out here, OPEC members and major oil companies
are
> > probably exaggerating reserves by a large margin. OPEC members do this
so
> > that OPEC will give them a larger market allocation, and oil companies
do
> > it to prop up their stock prices. There have been no substantial
> > discoveries of oil in the lower 48 states since the 1930s, and there
never
> > will be. There is no more oil waiting to be found anywhere on earth. Of
> > course improved extraction techniques will stretch out supplies.
> >
> > - Jed
>
> All that four dollar gas price is going to do is guarantee a depression
and
> radicalization of our politics as the poor finally are driven to find
their
> voice.  The better solution and a better one for political stability is to
> impose rationing.  Another solution would be to follow the Mexican
> example and nationalize the resource and its distribution networks, as
>  the industry has shown itself rapaciousely avaricious on too many
> occasions.  Once nationalized, the problem of fair distribution can be
> solved by rationing. We could encourage the sidelining of gas guzzlers
> by taxing new large vehicles like SUVs.  The old ones will wear out in
> time and sideline themselves.
>
> Standing Bear
>
>
>


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 29 05:01:32 2005
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Subject: Re: The Grip of Gas
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Sounds like socialism to me.  It worked great in the USSR.  I'm sure it will
be terrific here.

Nixon tried gas rationing.  We had gas lines wrapped around the block.

The law of supply and demand will set the proper price and there will be no
lines and no shortages.  People who decide they can't afford it will do one
of the following:

1.  get a smaller car
2.  carpool
3.  take public transportation
4.  get a motor cycle
5.  get a bicycle
6.  move closer to their place of employment

People will do none of these above options without the economic pressure of
a rising gas price.

The days of the 60-90 minute commute must come to an end.  Only high gas
prices will end it .

Jeff


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Standing Bear" <rockcast earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2005 12:56 AM
Subject: Re: The Grip of Gas


> All that four dollar gas price is going to do is guarantee a depression
and
> radicalization of our politics as the poor finally are driven to find
their
> voice.  The better solution and a better one for political stability is to
> impose rationing.  Another solution would be to follow the Mexican
> example and nationalize the resource and its distribution networks, as
>  the industry has shown itself rapaciousely avaricious on too many
> occasions.  Once nationalized, the problem of fair distribution can be
> solved by rationing. We could encourage the sidelining of gas guzzlers
> by taxing new large vehicles like SUVs.  The old ones will wear out in
> time and sideline themselves.
>
> Standing Bear
>
>
>


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 29 05:29:36 2005
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From: "Alex Caliostro" <caliostro1795 hotmail.com>
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Subject: Re: deceptively simple question
Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 06:28:41 -0600
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>From: Robin van Spaandonk

>Why are *high* pressure areas warm, and *low* pressure areas cold?
>(If low pressure regions are caused by rising *warm* air, then
>they shouldn't be *cold*, they should be warm).

because low pressure results from dimples and hi pressure from bumps

bumps hold in heat

dimples have less insulation between earth and cold space

_____
-alex

_________________________________________________________________
Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! 
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/

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Subject: Re: Methane & Water to Methanol
Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 06:31:42 -0500
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For the hardy.  :-)

Frederick
1, CH4 (16 Lb) + H2O  (18 Lb) + Heat/Catalyst ---->  CO (28 Lb) + 3 H2 (6 Lb)

2,  CO (28 LB) + 2 H2 (4 Lb) ---->  CH3OH (32 Lb) 

3,  CH3OH (32 Lb) +  H2O (18 Lb) makes a good motor fuel that freezes below minus 65 deg F.

CH4 is about 4.24 Lbs/ccf HHv 23,600 BTU/Lb  LHV 21,300 BTU/Lb.

Methanol Sp. Gravity 0.796   Boiling Point 149 deg F  Heat of Vaporization 506 BTU/Lb
HHV 9,750 BTU/Lb   LHV  8,570 or 56,800 BTU/Gallon.

I think an old  Cat Converter from the junk yard (Auto Recyclers these days) can do 
the steam reforming step (#1).
OTOH. the newer "3 Cycle" Converters Might do it all:

The composition of the newer Low Pressure (~ 700 Psi ) methanol synthesis catalysts
are closely guarded secrets.

http://autorepair.about.com/cs/generalinfo/a/aa080401a.htm


Google: "Methanol Synthesis Catalyst"   "Low Pressure"


http://www.unicatcatalyst.com/Specialty%20chemical%20catalysts.htm
CuO > 65%+, ZnO: >25%;  Al2O3: Balance 
Bulk Density: 1.35-1.38 kg/liter (82-85 lbs/cuft)
Optimum Inlet Operating Temperature: 210-230  C / Maximum Temp > 400 C
Shape:  cylindrical pellet
Size:  5*5 mm or made to order 
Surface area: > 100 m2/g 
Crush Strength: >27 lbs/in reduced state 
Attrition loss: < 2%
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<DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>For the hardy.&nbsp; :-)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Frederick</DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid">
<DIV>1, CH4 (16 Lb) + H2O&nbsp; (18 Lb) + Heat/Catalyst ----&gt;&nbsp; CO (28 Lb) + 3 H2 (6 Lb)</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>2,&nbsp; CO (28 LB) + 2 H2 (4 Lb) ----&gt;&nbsp; CH3OH (32 Lb) </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>3,&nbsp; CH3OH (32 Lb) +&nbsp; H2O&nbsp;(18 Lb) makes a good motor fuel that freezes below minus 65 deg F.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>CH4 is about 4.24 Lbs/ccf HHv 23,600 BTU/Lb&nbsp; LHV 21,300 BTU/Lb.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Methanol Sp. Gravity 0.796&nbsp;&nbsp; Boiling Point 149 deg F&nbsp; Heat of Vaporization 506 BTU/Lb</DIV>
<DIV>HHV 9,750 BTU/Lb&nbsp;&nbsp; LHV&nbsp; 8,570 or 56,800 BTU/Gallon.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>I think an old &nbsp;Cat Converter from the junk yard (Auto Recyclers these days) can do </DIV>
<DIV>the steam reforming step (#1).</DIV>
<DIV>OTOH. the newer "3 Cycle" Converters Might do it all:</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The composition of the newer Low Pressure (~ 700 Psi ) methanol synthesis catalysts</DIV>
<DIV>are closely guarded secrets.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://autorepair.about.com/cs/generalinfo/a/aa080401a.htm">http://autorepair.about.com/cs/generalinfo/a/aa080401a.htm</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Google: "Methanol Synthesis Catalyst"&nbsp;&nbsp; "Low Pressure"</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://www.unicatcatalyst.com/Specialty%20chemical%20catalysts.htm">http://www.unicatcatalyst.com/Specialty%20chemical%20catalysts.htm</A></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 6pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 150%"><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Franklin Gothic Book'">CuO &gt; 65%+, ZnO: &gt;25%; <SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;</SPAN>Al2O3: Balance <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 6pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 150%"><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Franklin Gothic Book'">Bulk Density: 1.35-1.38 kg/liter (82-85 lbs/cuft)<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 6pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 150%"><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Franklin Gothic Book'">Optimum Inlet Operating Temperature: 210-230<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>C / Maximum Temp &gt; 400 C<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 6pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 150%"><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Franklin Gothic Book'">Shape:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>cylindrical pellet<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 6pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 150%"><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Franklin Gothic Book'">Size:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>5*5 mm or made to order <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 6pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 150%"><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Franklin Gothic Book'">Surface area: &gt; 100 m2/g <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 6pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 150%"><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Franklin Gothic Book'">Crush Strength: &gt;27 lbs/in reduced state <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 6pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 150%"><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Franklin Gothic Book'">Attrition loss: &lt; 2%</SPAN></P></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: "vortex-l" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Methane Hydrate Reserves & CO2 Sequestration
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http://marine.usgs.gov/fact-sheets/gas-hydrates/title.html

" Recent mapping conducted by the USGS off North Carolina and South Carolina shows large accumulations of methane hydrates. 
A pair of relatively small areas, each about the size of the State of Rhode Island, shows intense concentrations of gas hydrates. USGS scientists estimate that these areas contain more than 1,300 trillion cubic feet of methane gas, an amount representing more than 70 times the 1989 gas consumption of the United States. Some of the gas was formed by bacteria in the sediments, but some may be derived from deep strata of the Carolina Trough. The Carolina Trough is a significant offshore oil and gas frontier area where no wells have been drilled. It is a very large basin, about the size of the State of South Carolina, that has accumulated a great thickness of sediment, perhaps more than 13 kilometers. Salt diapirs, reefs, and faults, in addition to hydrate gas, may provide greater potential for conventional oil and gas traps than is present in other east coast basins. "

CO2 Sequestration:
http://www.geotimes.org/mar03/feature_demonstrating.html
" Estimates are that human activity emits 7 billion tons of carbon dioxide a year (see the feature on page 16 in this issue). One proposed method for reducing how much of the greenhouse gas ends up in the atmosphere is to store the carbon dioxide underground. Natural reservoirs of the gas exist, suggesting that geologic carbon sequestration is feasible.

" For the past few years, two projects have, combined, been burying 2 million metric tons per year of man-made carbon dioxide instead of sending it into the atmosphere. And researchers in several countries are investigating other options for geologic storage of the greenhouse gas. One of the main goals of these studies is to verify that the gas can in fact remain buried for at least hundreds of years. "
I don't take a rocket scientist to figure out why the Gigatons
per year Methanol industry is looking into this.
Frederick
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<DIV><A href="http://marine.usgs.gov/fact-sheets/gas-hydrates/title.html">http://marine.usgs.gov/fact-sheets/gas-hydrates/title.html</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>" Recent mapping conducted by the USGS off North Carolina and South Carolina shows large accumulations of methane hydrates. </DIV>
<DIV>A pair of relatively small areas, each about the size of the State of Rhode Island, shows intense concentrations of gas hydrates. USGS scientists estimate that these areas contain more than 1,300 trillion cubic feet of methane gas, an amount representing more than 70 times the 1989 gas consumption of the United States. Some of the gas was formed by bacteria in the sediments, but some may be derived from deep strata of the Carolina Trough. The Carolina Trough is a significant offshore oil and gas frontier area where no wells have been drilled. It is a very large basin, about the size of the State of South Carolina, that has accumulated a great thickness of sediment, perhaps more than 13 kilometers. Salt diapirs, reefs, and faults, in addition to hydrate gas, may provide greater potential for conventional oil and gas traps than is present in other east coast basins. "</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>CO2 Sequestration:</DIV>
<P><A href="http://www.geotimes.org/mar03/feature_demonstrating.html">http://www.geotimes.org/mar03/feature_demonstrating.html</A></P>
<P>" Estimates are that human activity emits 7 billion tons of carbon dioxide a year (see the feature on page 16 in this issue). One proposed method for reducing how much of the greenhouse gas ends up in the atmosphere is to store the carbon dioxide underground. Natural reservoirs of the gas exist, suggesting that geologic carbon sequestration is feasible.<BR><BR>" For the past few years, two projects have, combined, been burying 2 million metric tons per year of man-made carbon dioxide instead of sending it into the atmosphere. And researchers in several countries are investigating other options for geologic storage of the greenhouse gas. One of the main goals of these studies is to verify that the gas can in fact remain buried for at least hundreds of years. "</P>
<P>I don't take a rocket scientist to figure out why the Gigatons</P>
<P>per year Methanol industry is looking into this.</P>
<P>Frederick</P></BODY></HTML>
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Bear sez

...

>                                        Now I find out 
> that our President has a ranch there.  Guess that explains a
> lot.  Everybody in that place was drunk or getting that way. 
> My dog Dragon, a good judge of character if ever there was one,
> stayed at a constant growling alert from 20 miles away from it
> til it was 30 miles behind us.  Kept the windows up and the air
> conditioning on high to at least keep him a little calm.
> 
> Standing Bear
>

Great travel log Bear.

I assume you already seen the popular bumper sticker:

"somewhere in Texas there is a village missing its idiot."

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com 

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> Bear sez
>
> ...
>
>>                                        Now I find out
>> that our President has a ranch there.  Guess that explains a
>> lot.  Everybody in that place was drunk or getting that way.
>> My dog Dragon, a good judge of character if ever there was one,
>> stayed at a constant growling alert from 20 miles away from it
>> til it was 30 miles behind us.  Kept the windows up and the air
>> conditioning on high to at least keep him a little calm.
>>
>> Standing Bear
>>
>
> Great travel log Bear.
>
> I assume you already seen the popular bumper sticker:
>
> "somewhere in Texas there is a village missing its idiot."
>

Folks sure short on gratitude. We send the very best that money can buy to 
Washington and all we get is complaints. Back during the depression we sent 
all our unemployed bean pickers to California.. and what did they do with 
'em. Made movie stars and hippies with 'em. Might be one or two over at 
Berk'ley teaching students how to grow hemp.Now you spoiled 'em, we don't 
want 'em back cause we done found us an unlimited labor pool and all we need 
to do is forget to close the gate.


Richard 


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recently posted by dr sarfatti on his list

"Subject: Advanced Space Flight Technology

No more Space Shuttles ever needed again.

I have been asked by Deep Black

"Ok Jack , I read it. Assuming its true, then pray tell how do we get   some 
and bottle it as fuel?"

Forget fuel. There is no fuel! This is not a rocket ejecting mass.   Also 
that is what is wrong with Hal's approach and Woodward's   approach and even 
Gennady Shipov's torsion field drive. Even though   they are propellantless, 
i.e. not ejecting mass, nevertheless they   change mass M (by one alleged 
means or other, torsion for Gennady   Shipov, Mach's principle for James 
Woodward so there is a vdM/dt term   just like in a rocket but without any 
ejected mass. This is   intrinsically unstable and is a BOMB if they change 
e/m too much!   Also it is a non-geodesic drive, i.e. they feel inertial 
g-forces!   Mine is different. I have little LC oscillator loops embedded on 
   nanoscale in thin very high Tc 2D layer anyon films "painted" on the   
fuselage. Forcing different non-integer continuously varying magnetic   
fluxes through the little Josephson "super-conducting loops" modifies   the 
Goldstone phase of the Higgs vacuum phase that controls the   curvature and 
the torsion of the local space-time geometrodynamic   field. The trick is 
how to lock the phase of the vacuum to the   magnetic fields (currents 
through the loops). I don't know enough   solid state physics yet to do 
that."

_________________________________________________________________
Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! 
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/

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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: aussie solar challenge underway
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Standing Bear wrote:

>On Wednesday 28 September 2005 20:15, Wesley Bruce wrote:
>  
>
>>Alex Caliostro wrote:
>>    
>>
>>>set the controls for the heart of the sun
>>>
>>>2000 miles in a cramped position
>>>
>>>http://www.wsc.org.au/2005/competition/
>>>
>>>any of our friends downunder know whos leading
>>>
>>>_____
>>>-alex
>>>      
>>>
>
>
>You mean a baked position.  I mean really hot!  They cross the Gibson 
>Desert in those coffins somebody is going to get a heat stroke, maybe
>quite a few somebodies
>
>Standing Bear
>
>  
>
They carry quite a lot of water in those little solar cars and cooling 
the drivers is down to a fine art. These days their going quite fast and 
the draft cools them down a bit. Less sunlight gets through the tiny 
windows than on a normal sedan. Some cars stop often for water refills 
from the support vehicle. Some teams can rotate the drivers. Driver 
endurance and water waight are the major desugn challenge rather than 
soler or battery performance.
That said in the deserts of Australia we loose the odd tourist every 
year. Its winter over here and the deserts wet this year. They've had 
cars and support trucks bogged and camp sites flooded. and I should 
mention the frog plague of biblical proportions! =-O
OT: Every few years we invite US army people over for joint exercises 
and tell them not to go swimming in our tropical rivers. Some how yanks 
never get the message and one end up crocodile tucker. We’ve sent back 
one less yank almost every time. We just lost two tourists this week the 
same way. Crocks 8 verses US Marines 0.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 29 07:46:24 2005
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: The Grip of Gas
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Craig Haynie wrote:

> > price falls to $2.50. I wish the leaders would tell the
> > citizens that oil
> > is running out, and it is time to make sacrifices and make
> > changes. [...]
>
>I am curious why you want to do this. The market will do this naturally as
>the supply of oil begins to fail to keep pace with demand. Why rush the
>inevitable?

Well, I want to impose the tax to pay for the war and the hurricanes 
without bankrupting our grandchildren or inflating the money.

But sure, the market will take care of things. I am a big fan of 
capitalism. I am confident that corporations will take risks and make 
profits, and this will solve the energy crisis. However, in the U.S. we 
have always had state capitalism. The government has taken an active role, 
collaborating with industry and investing directly to implement every 
large-scale, national scale technology, from canals to railroads, 
telecommunications, automobiles, computers, highways and the Internet. I 
doubt you can come up with a single example of a major technology that does 
not have Uncle Sam's fingerprints on it. The U.S. and British governments 
have always done a superb job at this, and it has resulted in the most 
successful economies on earth, so I see no reason to change the rules now 
after 300 years. I am a conservative in that respect.

And just because the free market will take care of things, that does not 
mean we do not have to plan ahead and make sacrifices. The market took care 
of the Y2K bug, but it cost everyone lots of money and sacrifice.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 29 07:54:12 2005
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>From: "RC Macaulay"

>Now you spoiled 'em, we don't want 'em back cause we done found us an 
>unlimited labor pool and all we need to do is forget to close the gate.

this just in

"A big earthquake with the strength of 8.1 on the Richter scale has hit 
Mexico.

Two million Mexicans have died and over a million are injured. The country 
is totally ruined and the government doesn't know where to start with 
providing help to rebuild.

The rest of the world is in shock.

Canada is sending troopers to help the Mexican army control the riots.

Saudi Arabia is sending oil.

Other Latin American countries are sending supplies.

The European community (except France) is sending food and money.

The United States, not to be outdone, is sending two million replacement 
Mexicans.

God Bless America "

_________________________________________________________________
FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now! 
http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 29 08:13:37 2005
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Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 11:12:18 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Solar hydrogen production at only 400 deg C
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Frederick Sparber wrote:

>I said Help Out, Jed.  Almost all of the farm wastes that undergo anerobic
>bacterial digestion end up adding to the methane/CO2 burden of the 
>atmosphere.  Why not get the energy from it (Bio Gas) . . .

Sure! This is a great idea and we should do it anyway to remediate the 
pollution. However, my point is that this can only supply a few percent of 
the energy we need. You said that the solar hydrogen production seems "less 
impressive" compared to biogas. I disagree. The solar approach could 
produce all the energy we consume in North America, with plenty left over 
for export. That is more impressive than biogas. It is a large-scale, 
comprehensive solution.

As a practical matter, it would be a good idea to produce bio-gas plus 
solar-generated hydrogen, and in other locations, electricity generated 
from wind, hydroelectricity, nuclear fission and even natural gas. The only 
kind of energy I would like to see phased out gradually are oil and coal, 
because they cost too much, they pollute too much, oil causes political 
instability, and both of them probably cause global warming.

At this stage we have no winner-take-all alternative. When something like 
that emerges, the free market will select it, and competing energy systems 
will gradually fade away. In the long term, I doubt it will be economical 
to support more than two or three primary sources of energy. This goes back 
to Robert Cringley's "two standards at most" rule. This limitation is 
mainly imposed by people's abilities. A guy who installs home heating 
systems can master gas furnaces and heat pumps, and maybe one more type of 
furnace, but he cannot juggle six radically different types.

If cold fusion emerges, I predict it will produce nearly all primary energy 
within a few decades. We may still have liquid fuel for some specialized 
purposes, but the fuel will be synthesized starting with cold fusion 
energy. We may have some biogas because we have to clean up the manure 
anyway. Naturally we will need carbon fuel (coke) for blast furnaces. There 
may be a few other specialized energy sources. People will not throw away 
all of the hydroelectric dams 20 years after cold fusion becomes 
universally applied. They will find some use for the electricity -- 
probably close to the dam. On the other hand I doubt there will be any dams 
left in operation 200 years from now.

I hope that 30 to 50 years from now we will not have a huge burden of 
manure to deal with anymore. I hope that meat can be synthesized.

- Jed


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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: The Grip of Gas
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Michael Foster wrote:

> > solved by rationing. We could encourage the sidelining of gas guzzlers
> > by taxing new large vehicles like SUVs. The old ones will wear out in
> > time and sideline themselves.
>
>Excuse me while I run outside to wave my little worker's hat and sing
>another rousing chorus of the Internationale.

Oh come now. The government has spent the last 50 years subsidizing oil 
production, blocking alternative energy, and giving huge tax breaks for 
SUVs. Why is it now suddenly Socialism to suggest that the government 
stopped tilting the playing field in favor of these technologies and 
perhaps do something to discourage them instead?

Look at the history of the LUZ solar-electric power system. It was obvious 
all along that the federal government and the government of California were 
heavily influenced by fossil fuel producers, and they made it nearly 
impossible for LUZ to survive. They forced LUZ to build units much smaller 
than the optimum, and they forced them to throw away billions of kilowatt 
hours of electricity, by defocussing the collectors. If wind energy makes 
did not have a potent lobbying organization and lots of public support, 
fossil fuel producers would have crushed them long ago.

We do not have pure unfettered capitalism. No country does, or ever will. 
Here in the real world politics always play a role, and government must 
pick sides, help the underdog, and see to it that new technologies are 
given a fair chance. Capitalism will not work without a strong and active 
central government to counterbalance the political and economic power of 
the big corporations. Without a strong government we will have Socialism 
for the rich and powerful only, and corporate welfare.

- Jed


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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: The Grip of Gas
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Standing Bear wrote:

>All that four dollar gas price is going to do is guarantee a depression and
>radicalization of our politics . . .

Not if it is imposed carefully, along with a tax cut for people making less 
than $30,000 per year.


>The better solution and a better one for political stability is to impose 
>rationing.

Bad idea. It will just cause shortages. It will not encourage people to 
adopt long-term solution such as buying more efficient cars. People will 
assume rationing is only going to last for a few months. Rationing may be a 
good short-term solution in the event of a catastrophe such as another 
hurricane or a pipeline break. Such things can be fixed quickly, so people 
will realize that the rationing is only temporary.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 29 08:47:58 2005
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---- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jed Rothwell"

>> > We could encourage the sidelining of gas guzzlers
>> > by taxing new large vehicles like SUVs. The old ones will 
>> > wear out in
>> > time and sideline themselves.

> Michael Foster wrote:

>>Excuse me while I run outside to wave my little worker's hat and 
>>sing
>>another rousing chorus of the Internationale.

JR:

> Oh come now. The government has spent the last 50 years 
> subsidizing oil production, blocking alternative energy, and 
> giving huge tax breaks for SUVs. Why is it now suddenly 
> Socialism to suggest that the government stopped tilting the 
> playing field in favor of these technologies and perhaps do 
> something to discourage them instead?


This exchange neatly illustrates one overriding point, and is very 
pertinent to the recent "big picture" story of overlapping 
social/political control over economics. Which is more efficient - 
communism, socialism, or free-enterprise?

In this months Forbes, there is the new survey of World 
competitiveness, and once again the contrast in the #1 and #2 
rankings is illustrative of the point that I am trying to shoehorn 
in here.

Finland (very socialistic) is #1 in overall competitiveness for 
the second year running while the USA (somewhat capitalistic) is 
#2 once again. Other socialist countries round out the top 10.

Would the USA even be in the top 10 if we were not blessed with 
extreme natural resources, timber, minerals, petroleum and good 
farm land? Finland, Sweden, Norway and Denmark, have none of these 
yet they are doing quite well, thanks to their advanced political 
system (for one thing).

BTW going "too far" to the left, as always, is counter-indicated. 
Communism is proven to be uncompetitive, over and over, and 
whatever else you may say about the great advance of China - this 
year they actually FELL in competitiveness - to below India, 
believe it or not.

In terms of economic competitiveness, even without the benefit of 
natural resources, the message has been clear for years. Socialism 
rules.

Jones

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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: I think pragmatism wins
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Jones Beene wrote:

>Would the USA even be in the top 10 if we were not blessed with extreme 
>natural resources, timber, minerals, petroleum and good farm land?

Probably yes. Natural resources help but there are many cultural factors at 
work. Apart from water, Mexico has as many natural resources as the US, yet 
they are not wealthy. If the Confederacy had won the Civil War, I think 
that by now it would be an economic basket case worse than Haiti.


>Finland, Sweden, Norway and Denmark, have none of these yet they are doing 
>quite well, thanks to their advanced political system (for one thing).

Norway is doing well partly because they have oil.


>In terms of economic competitiveness, even without the benefit of natural 
>resources, the message has been clear for years. Socialism rules.

I disagree. Finland's wealth comes from private corporations such as Nokia. 
I favor a pragmatic mix. Some things obviously must be socialized. Even the 
most dyed in the wool conservative agrees that small children should be 
offered public education, and food stamps if they need them. Health care is 
economically distorted because a person will pay almost any amount of money 
to stay alive, and no one chooses to be ill, so I agree with Winston 
Churchill that it should be socialized. However, most sectors of the 
economy work best when they are mainly capitalistic, with a modicum of 
common sense regulation, and occasional government investment.

Also, I do not see how anyone can complain about the major technologies 
invented by government researchers, such as computers and the Internet. No 
one should shun the cold fusion research conducted by Ohmori, Mizuno, Miles 
or Storms (when he was at LANL). A breakthrough is a breakthrough. Just 
because the inventor happens to be on a government payroll, that does not 
mean we should belittle the researcher or the discovery.

There are a few small but vital economic sectors that are not amenable to 
capitalism. The best example is fundamental research into physics, 
chemistry, medicine or biology. You cannot patent a force of nature. Basic 
research requires that information be shared freely and promptly before it 
reaches the practical stage, and you can't do that in a corporation. I 
doubt that cold fusion can be developed starting at this stage with private 
enterprise alone. If a basic theory is developed, or if someone figures out 
how to make robust devices without a theory, from that point on we can 
leave it up to private industry.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 29 09:54:10 2005
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Subject: Re: I think pragmatism wins
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jed Rothwell"

>>In terms of economic competitiveness, even without the benefit 
>>of natural resources, the message has been clear for years. 
>>Socialism rules.

> I disagree. Finland's wealth comes from private corporations 
> such as Nokia.

That is not disagreement at all!

Socialism in the Scandinavian context depends heavily on private 
corporations. These companies themselves become "little 
governments". However, the comment about "pragmatism" is 
definitely the key word. That and "accountability." Those 
corporations under socialism are less "private" and far more 
accountable to both stockholders, and especially to workers.

Government plays only slightly more a direct role in economics 
there than here. However, unlike their American counterparts, 
control of private companies is generally shared more fully by 
workers (who must have a board representative) and by active 
stockholder participation, plus to a much greater extent, the 
wages and salaries of workers vis-a-vis top management are closer 
and more regulated. That is another key - the perceived fairness 
of compensation - huge CEO salaries which we see in the USA, and 
especially where dividends are not being paid, would never be 
permitted there - very pragmatic. Workers work harder when they 
see that they are treated fairly in compensation.

The USA is slowly moving towards the Scandinavian model, because 
we are (despite lip service to unbridled-capitalism) also very 
pragmatic people. Forbes Magazine itself is the "mouthpiece of 
capitalism," no? Yet they tell it like it is... and when pragmatic 
capitalists see a model that works better, and it is clear that 
Scandinavian Socialism works better, then we invariably move in 
that direction - all the while never letting-on that the 
particular model came directly from socialism. Very pragmatic 
indeed.

Jones 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 29 10:24:31 2005
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I believe what happens in Finland can best be described by this title.

Our own economy will benefit greatly if such a trend accelerates.

Mark


>From: "Jones Beene" <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
>Subject: Re: I think pragmatism wins
>Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 09:52:31 -0700
>
>----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell"
>
>>>In terms of economic competitiveness, even without the benefit of natural 
>>>resources, the message has been clear for years. Socialism rules.
>
>>I disagree. Finland's wealth comes from private corporations such as 
>>Nokia.
>
>That is not disagreement at all!
>
>Socialism in the Scandinavian context depends heavily on private 
>corporations. These companies themselves become "little governments". 
>However, the comment about "pragmatism" is definitely the key word. That 
>and "accountability." Those corporations under socialism are less "private" 
>and far more accountable to both stockholders, and especially to workers.
>
>Government plays only slightly more a direct role in economics there than 
>here. However, unlike their American counterparts, control of private 
>companies is generally shared more fully by workers (who must have a board 
>representative) and by active stockholder participation, plus to a much 
>greater extent, the wages and salaries of workers vis-a-vis top management 
>are closer and more regulated. That is another key - the perceived fairness 
>of compensation - huge CEO salaries which we see in the USA, and especially 
>where dividends are not being paid, would never be permitted there - very 
>pragmatic. Workers work harder when they see that they are treated fairly 
>in compensation.
>
>The USA is slowly moving towards the Scandinavian model, because we are 
>(despite lip service to unbridled-capitalism) also very pragmatic people. 
>Forbes Magazine itself is the "mouthpiece of capitalism," no? Yet they tell 
>it like it is... and when pragmatic capitalists see a model that works 
>better, and it is clear that Scandinavian Socialism works better, then we 
>invariably move in that direction - all the while never letting-on that the 
>particular model came directly from socialism. Very pragmatic indeed.
>
>Jones
>


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 29 10:41:10 2005
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From: OrionWorks <orionworks charter.net>
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Subject: Harnessing artificial tornadoes as an energy source
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Vorts,

An interesting article:

http://www.economist.com/science/displayStory.cfm?story_id=4455446

or

http://tinyurl.com/8wl89

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 29 11:09:34 2005
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Wow! Neat idea. Thanks for telling us about that.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 29 11:25:54 2005
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Subject: Re: I think pragmatism wins
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Jones Beene wrote:

>The USA is slowly moving towards the Scandinavian model, because we are 
>(despite lip service to unbridled-capitalism) also very pragmatic people. 
>Forbes Magazine itself is the "mouthpiece of capitalism," no? Yet they 
>tell it like it is...

Well, I hope we do develop in this direction. A hybrid system with some of 
the best features of capitalism and socialism would be good. To some extent 
the two systems are incompatible. You might say they cancel out or 
contradict one another. For example, some people are not motivated to work 
if they can get welfare money. But no system is perfect, and these problems 
can be ameliorated.

In the far distant future, we will make whatever material goods we want for 
free, robots will do all the work, and people will all do whatever they 
please. Economics will no longer have any meaning. Money itself will 
disappear, I suppose. I doubt anyone will miss it. It is, at best, a 
necessary evil and a distraction from things that really matter.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 29 11:32:42 2005
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>From: ThomasClark123 aol.com

>I received an email from some persons working for
>President Bush claiming that there are computer systems which do indeed 
>control the
>weather globally based on political cycles and other data at the time the
>hurricanes were hitting Florida.

gee you should talk to this guy who quit his job as a meteorologist to prove 
what you already know

http://www.weatherwars.info/

_____
-alex

_________________________________________________________________
Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee® 
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 29 11:54:48 2005
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Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 14:53:42 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: OFF TOPIC Pinned down by a sniper in New Orleans!
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 From the New York Times, "Fear Exceeded Crime's Reality in New Orleans":


A contingent of National Guard troops was sent to rescue a St. Bernard 
Parish deputy sheriff who radioed for help, saying he was pinned down by a 
sniper. Accompanied by a SWAT team, the troops surrounded the area. The 
shots turned out to be the relief valve on a gas tank that popped open 
every few minutes, said Maj. Gen. Ron Mason of the 35th Infantry Division 
of the Kansas National Guard.

"It's part of human nature," General Mason said. "When you get one or two 
reports, it echoes around the community."


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Ok, patronage deals and loose purse strings generally go hand in hand
(regardless of which party is in power).  I don't like it either, BUT have
any of the outraged here ever gone through a government bid before?  The
ideal utopia in your head doesn't exist outside that theater.  Slow is not
the right adjective, inert is more like it.  It's the primary reason the Red
Cross is advocating the immediate and direct funding/reimbursement of faith
based organizations involved with hurricane recovery.  They are
organizationally more dynamic and are not paralyzed by bureaucracy.  Would
you have rather we waited 6-8+ WEEKS to get proper bids on restarting the
pumps, repairing the levees, housing the displaced?  When there is a luxury
of time I am all for traditional checks and balances.  To suggest anything
else in a time of crisis than an immediate response by whatever means
possible/necessary is just pure hubris by the unaffected.  That's how FEMA
failed, coloring inside the lines to a fault.  Whether you agree with them
or not, sometimes the Halliburton-types of the world are the only ones
organized, equipped, and staffed to handle extreme situations.  Save your
outrage until after it's reasonable safe for regular businesses to take over
suckling the government tits.

Just my 2 cents...

-john


-----Original Message-----
From: revtec [mailto:revtec PTD.NET] 
Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2005 6:41 AM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Secondary Disaster hits New Orleans


Between listening to talk radio and reading posts from this group, my head
is spinning.

Will the real planet earth please stand up, so I can figure out which one
I'm on!

Jeff

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jones Beene" <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
To: "vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2005 7:24 PM
Subject: OT: Secondary Disaster hits New Orleans


> Who is Joe Allbaugh ?
>
> Disaster Pimp, bag-man deluxe, or just a "very lucky" citizen? 
> http://slate.msn.com/id/2125756/
>
> The Shaw Group - a Louisiana construction firm, represented by Joe 
> Allbaugh, President George Bush's former campaign manager, and former 
> head of FEMA - won a $100-million **no-bid** FEMA contract to work on 
> a "variety of tasks," within hours of the Bush disaster relief 
> announcement (as...with Tom's help there is no Delay).
>
> No one seems to know what the $100-million worth of **no-bid** FEMA 
> "tasks" consist of, other than personal enrichment and graft, nor why 
> this huge contract was not let out for competitive bidding, as is 
> normal even in disasters - nor why Allbaugh was even allowed to get 
> his foot in the door - a seeming conflict of interest for the former 
> FEMA head.
>
> This is almost a joke, were it not a dead serious payback, at great 
> taxpayer expense, to a former Bush campaign manager.
>
> Shaw Group also won a $100-million contract from the Army Corps of 
> Engineers to work on "de-watering New Orleans." The Corps says it 
> contacted four companies, and Shaw was the only one to bid. Check out 
> Shaw's PAC contributions....
>
> The other companies deny that any timely request for bids was made by 
> the Army. The $200 million net for no-bid work, arranged by Allbaugh 
> could probably be done for a quarter of that sum, given normal 
> competitive bidding, say the watchdog groups, who are never covered on 
> the national News. That would be unpatriotic, no?
>
> Allbaugh's fee for both - reported to be $30 million - off the top. 
> Typical finder's fee according to insiders, nothing unusual ???
>
> Thank you very much, Dick and George. Yes Dick is in here with the 
> payola also. Whenever taxpayer money  is there for the taking, 
> Cheney's shadow is overlooking everyting.  Another Allbaugh client - 
> KBR, a wholly owned subsidiary of Vice President Dick Cheney's former 
> firm,  Halliburton Co. and an offshore tax haven - also was  hired 
> immediately for Katrina work, ostensibly under an existing contract  
> with the Navy but with **no-bid** add-ons. The Navy even tried hard 
> not to mention the name "Halliburton" until asked about who owned KBR.
>
> "It appears the same cast of characters is raking up these contracts 
> that got money from the Iraq reconstruction," said Beth Daley, 
> spokeswoman for the Project on Government Oversight, a Washington 
> advocacy group.
>
> Within days of this disaster the politicos have there hands in the 
> taxpayers pocket. Do they have no shame?
>
>



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 29 12:41:47 2005
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From: "John Steck" <johnsteck tetrahelix.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Converters and Calculators
Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 14:40:17 -0500
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Very useful site... thanks for sharing the URL.
-john
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net] 
Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2005 4:22 AM
To: vortex-l
Subject: Re: Converters and Calculators




http://www.csgnetwork.com/aviationconverters.html
 
"Some of these are directly related to the aviation community and some are
of indirect interest"
 
I like this one, especially for finding out how much stuff my garage will
hold.

http://www.csgnetwork.com/longlatdistance.html

 
 
 
 


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<HTML style=3D"FONT-SIZE: x-small; FONT-FAMILY: MS Sans Serif"><HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
charset=3DUS-ASCII">
<TITLE>Message</TITLE>

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<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D228054518-29092005><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff>Very useful=20
site... thanks for sharing the URL.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D228054518-29092005><FONT face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff>-john</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D228054518-29092005><FONT face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft><FONT=20
face=3DTahoma>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Frederick =
Sparber=20
[mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, September =
29, 2005=20
4:22 AM<BR><B>To:</B> vortex-l<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: Converters and=20
Calculators<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<P>
<DIV>
<DIV><A=20
href=3D"http://www.csgnetwork.com/aviationconverters.html">http://www.csg=
network.com/aviationconverters.html</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>"Some of these are directly related to the aviation community and =
some are=20
of indirect interest"</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>I like this one, especially for finding out how much stuff my =
garage will=20
hold.</DIV>
<P><A=20
href=3D"http://www.csgnetwork.com/longlatdistance.html">http://www.csgnet=
work.com/longlatdistance.html</A></P></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<P></P></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 29 12:41:55 2005
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From: "John Steck" <johnsteck tetrahelix.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Weather Control
Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 14:40:17 -0500
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Wow.  'nuf said.  8^)
=20
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: ThomasClark123 aol.com [mailto:ThomasClark123@aol.com]=20
Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2005 11:02 AM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com; A-albionic_Subscription@yahoogroups.com
Cc: ThomasClark123 aol.com
Subject: Re: Weather Control


In a message dated 9/14/2005 1:46:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk writes:

Weather modification and control might seem really outlandish.  But, we
could be nearing the point where where weather modification and control
could be possible.

I know for sure that weather control by means of  computers and energy =
beams
has existed in the USA since 1994.  Around August of 1994, a person was =
sent
to me claiming to represent President Clinton, who told me that the US
government had me under surveillance because they thought I could =
control
the weather and even political events with my mind.  At the time =
President
Clinton contacted me, his plane had had problems with weather attacks =
when
President Gore had a broken leg, which signified that I had done =
something
politically in the future that changed his politics, and which then went
back in time by means of governmental computer time travel communication =
to
change the weather around his plane as a sign.  The next day I saw a TV
comedy which parodied President Clinton's plane being downed by a =
weather
storm, with a priest in a temple who was used to control the weather to =
down
the plain. Thereafter, I noticed that the weather around me changed from
rainy to thunderstorms and to sunny based on my thoughts, actions and =
events
in my life.  I was able to even snap my fingers and it would rain, and =
then
snap my fingers and it would stop raining instantly.  Later I discovered
that the weather around me was not being controlled directly by my mind =
but
by governmental computer systems which had me under surveillance and =
which
captured my thoughts and filtered them before they were placed into a
computer system, so that the computer system could simulate weather =
control
around me by means of using energy beams to control the weather based on
actions and events that occurred in my life and based on my thoughts.  =
The
governmental computer systems were attempting to make me believe that I
could control the weather with my mind, and later the governmental =
computer
system would reverse weather control to be the opposite of what I =
thought so
that I had to work very hard to get the weather back to normal.   I have
noticed that weather control and weather warfare follows political =
patterns,
and historical political cycles.  I received an email from some persons
working for President Bush claiming that there are computer systems =
which do
indeed control the weather globally based on political cycles and other =
data
at the time the hurricanes were hitting Florida. =20
=20

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<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2722" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; BACKGROUND-COLOR: =
#ffffff">
<DIV><SPAN class=3D865485118-29092005>Wow.&nbsp; 'nuf said.&nbsp; =
8^)</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D865485118-29092005></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D865485118-29092005></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft><FONT=20
face=3DTahoma>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> =
ThomasClark123 aol.com=20
[mailto:ThomasClark123 aol.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, September 29, =
2005=20
11:02 AM<BR><B>To:</B> vortex-l eskimo.com;=20
A-albionic_Subscription yahoogroups.com<BR><B>Cc:</B>=20
ThomasClark123 aol.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: Weather=20
Control<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>In a message dated 9/14/2005 1:46:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time,=20
R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px =
solid"><FONT=20
  face=3DArial>Weather modification and control might seem really=20
  outlandish.&nbsp; But, we<BR>could be nearing the point where where =
weather=20
  modification and control<BR>could be =
possible.</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV>I know for sure that weather control by means of&nbsp; computers =
and energy=20
beams has existed in the USA since 1994.&nbsp; Around August of 1994, a =
person=20
was sent to me claiming to represent President Clinton, who told me that =
the US=20
government had me under surveillance because they thought I could =
control the=20
weather and even political events with my mind.&nbsp; At the time =
President=20
Clinton contacted me, his plane had had problems with weather attacks =
when=20
President Gore had a broken leg, which signified that I had done =
something=20
politically in the future that changed his politics, and which then went =
back in=20
time by means of governmental computer time travel communication to =
change the=20
weather around his plane&nbsp;as a&nbsp;sign.&nbsp; The next day I saw a =
TV=20
comedy which parodied President Clinton's plane being downed by a =
weather storm,=20
with a priest in a temple who was used to control the weather to down =
the plain.=20
Thereafter, I noticed that the weather around me changed from rainy to=20
thunderstorms and&nbsp;to sunny based on my thoughts, actions and events =
in my=20
life.&nbsp; I was able to even&nbsp;snap my fingers and it would rain, =
and then=20
snap my fingers and it would stop raining instantly.&nbsp; Later I =
discovered=20
that the weather around me was not being controlled directly by my mind =
but by=20
governmental computer systems which had me under surveillance and which =
captured=20
my thoughts and filtered them before they were placed into a computer=20
system,&nbsp;so that the computer system could&nbsp;simulate weather =
control=20
around me by means of using energy beams to control the weather based on =
actions=20
and events that occurred in my life and based on my thoughts.&nbsp; The=20
governmental computer systems were attempting to make me believe that I =
could=20
control the weather with my mind, and later the governmental computer =
system=20
would reverse weather control to be the opposite of what I thought so =
that I had=20
to work very hard to get the weather back to normal.&nbsp;&nbsp; I have =
noticed=20
that weather control and weather warfare follows political patterns, and =

historical political cycles.&nbsp; I received an email from some persons =
working=20
for President Bush claiming that there are computer systems which do =
indeed=20
control the weather globally based on political cycles and other data at =
the=20
time the hurricanes were hitting Florida.&nbsp; </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: ThomasClark123 aol.com
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Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 16:21:43 EDT
Subject: Re: Weather Control
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In a message dated 9/29/2005 2:32:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
caliostro1795 hotmail.com writes:
gee you should talk to this guy who quit his job as a meteorologist to prove 
what you already know

http://www.weatherwars.info/
Thanks for the above reference.  It seems to me that it would be a simple 
matter to give local police officers in every town nation wide advanced remote 
sensing, weather monitoring and control technologies, and anti-atmospheric 
pollution electronic force field technologies.  If local police world wide had a 
simple weather shield for their town as the Avengers movie hints at, then most 
towns would not only be warned but have a chance to prevent bad weather from 
occurring in their area locally. 

-------------------------------1128025303
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<HTML><HEAD>
<META charset=3DUS-ASCII http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; cha=
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<BODY style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fffff=
f">
<DIV>
<DIV>In a message dated 9/29/2005 2:32:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, caliostr=
o1795 hotmail.com writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue=20=
2px solid"><FONT face=3DArial>gee you should talk to this guy who quit his j=
ob as a meteorologist to prove <BR>what you already know<BR><BR>http://www.w=
eatherwars.info/</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV>Thanks for the above reference.&nbsp; It seems to me that it would be a=
 simple matter to give local police officers in every town nation wide advan=
ced remote sensing, weather monitoring and control technologies, and anti-at=
mospheric pollution electronic force field technologies.&nbsp; If local poli=
ce world wide had a simple weather shield for their town&nbsp;as the Avenger=
s movie hints at, then most towns would not only be warned but have a chance=
 to prevent bad weather from occurring in their area locally. </DIV></BODY><=
/HTML>

-------------------------------1128025303--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 29 17:15:29 2005
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From: Steven Krivit <steven newenergytimes.com>
Subject: OT: Mini icon on nav bar
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Can any html-heads out there tell me how to add a mini icon to the front of 
the nav field on a browser?
I used Dreamweaver.

TIA,

Steve

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Steven Krivit wrote:

> Can any html-heads out there tell me how to add a mini icon to the 
> front of the nav field on a browser?
> I used Dreamweaver.

If you mean what I think you mean, you just need to create a file named 
"favicon.ico" and put it in the top level directory of your website 
(same directory index.html goes in).

It's in Windows icon bitmap format (whatever that is) and it's 16x16 
IIRC, which isn't much room for drawing a pretty picture, but what can 
you do, it's just an ad-hoc standard so there's not even a committee to 
complain to.  It will automatically show up in the nav bar in most 
browsers and in the bookmarks lists of at least some of them if someone 
chooses to bookmark your site.

You typically use a graphics (drawing) program to create the icon.  I 
used Gimp, but I'm working on Linux here.  I'm not sure what you'd use 
on Windows -- Photoimpact could almost surely do it; I'm not sure what 
other programs are good for it.  I think you just need a program which 
will "save-as" an image as type "icon".  If you google "favicon.ico" and 
a few terms like "creating" and "icon" you can probably find more 
information on making them.

If you do google the subject you'll most likely find a some information 
about what you need to change in your index page in order to make the 
icon actually show up.  As far as I know, that's obsolete at this point: 
the current crop of browsers pick up the file on their own with no 
additional encouragement.


>
> TIA,
>
> Steve
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 29 20:03:08 2005
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From: Harry Veeder <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: "peak oil"
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I think "peak oil" will happen, but it will result from peak demand rather
than peak supply. 

Harry

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From: Harry Veeder <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: I think pragmatism wins
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Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Jones Beene wrote:
> 
>> The USA is slowly moving towards the Scandinavian model, because we are
>> (despite lip service to unbridled-capitalism) also very pragmatic people.
>> Forbes Magazine itself is the "mouthpiece of capitalism," no? Yet they
>> tell it like it is...
> 
> Well, I hope we do develop in this direction. A hybrid system with some of
> the best features of capitalism and socialism would be good. To some extent
> the two systems are incompatible. You might say they cancel out or
> contradict one another. For example, some people are not motivated to work
> if they can get welfare money. But no system is perfect, and these problems
> can be ameliorated.
> 
> In the far distant future, we will make whatever material goods we want for
> free, robots will do all the work, and people will all do whatever they
> please. Economics will no longer have any meaning. Money itself will
> disappear, I suppose. I doubt anyone will miss it. It is, at best, a
> necessary evil and a distraction from things that really matter.
> 
> - Jed
> 
> 


I also wish money would disappear, but for that to happen the price system
would have to disappear as well. However, without price signals it is
difficult to imagine how supply and demand would balance.
Perhaps people will set the prices but only robots will work for money.

Harry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 29 20:35:32 2005
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FYI:

http://www.ianano.org/Program1.html

(I'm on Tuesday morning, you can use your browser's search feature to 
search on "krivit")

s

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Awesome, thanks, I didn't even know what to call that thing.  I owe ya one.

s

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 30 02:14:10 2005
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Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 10:13:04 +0100
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From: Grimer <f.grimer grimer2.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Podkletnov, Hutchison and Shoulders (PH&S)
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Reading through the following article again....

http://www.world-mysteries.com/sci_supr.htm#CITEFlandern

                                          ....I realised 
that, assuming Podkletnov's results are genuine [and I 
readily admit that you almost have to be a believer 
little green men to accept this 8-) ] then there is a 
good case for arguing that PH&S are all of a piece.

Consider the following paragraphs:-

     ====================================================
     Podkletnov now says that he can generate repulsive 
     force beams. According to Nick Cook, 

     "Meanwhile, Mr Podkletnov, now based at the Moscow 
     Chemical Scientific Research Center, has taken his 
     ideas further. Last year he published another paper 
     - backed by Giovanni Modanese, an Italian physicist, 
     detailing work on an 'impulse gravity generator' 
     that is capable of exerting a repulsive force on all 
     matter. 

     Using a strong electrical discharge source and a 
     superconducting 'emitter', the equipment has produced 
     a 'gravity impulse', Mr Podkletnov says, "that is very 
     short in time and propagates with great speed 
     (practically instantaneously) along the line of discharge, 
     passing through different objects without any observable 
     loss of energy". 

     The result, he maintains, is a repulsive action on 
     any object the beam hits, that is proportional to its 
     mass. When fitted to a laser pointing device, Mr 
     Podkletnov says, his laboratory installation has 
     already demonstrated its ability to knock over objects 
     more than a kilometer away. The same installation, he 
     maintains, could hit objects up to 200km away with the 
     same power."[72] 
     ====================================================

Now firstly - let's get the idea of gravity out of the way. 
This has no more to do with gravity than Naudin's lifters. 
It is clearly a electromagnetic effect of the same type as 
Hutchison's and Shoulders's. After all, it is the result of 
an electromagnetic pulse moderated by a superconducting coil. 
This strongly suggests that it is generating a closed ring 
vortex in the Beta-atmosphere.

Also, the fact that the effect does not disperse with 
distance is consistent with the propagation of a ring 
vortex. Mind you I find his claim that it "could hit 
objects up to 200km away with the same power." rather 
unlikely since I imagine that Beta-atmosphere vortices 
will attenuate in a similar manner to Alpha-atmosphere 
vortices.

I was puzzled for a bit by his reference to a laser 
pointing device but then I realised it was merely an 
apparatus for aiming the force generator, similar to 
the lasers fitted on modern rifles, and not an intrinsic
part of the generator itself.

As regards the "superconducting 'emitter'" it would appear
that if PH&S are, indeed, all of a piece then a superconductor
is not essential albeit a great advantage.

The reference to the force beam passing through 
objects is a bit confusing since if it passes through 
an object it can't knock it over, and vice versa.
Still at this stage of a epoch making discovery it is 
reasonable to expect this kind of contradiction.

I shall have to revisit the Hutchison effect since I 
have vague memories of his force passing through objects. 
I shall have to see if I can dig them out.

Cheers,

Frank Grimer

     ========================================
     et post dies octo iterum erant discipuli 
     eius intus et Thomas cum eis venit Iesus 
     ianuis clausis et stetit in medio et 
     dixit pax vobis 
     ========================================





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That's great Steve, looks like you're on mid to late morning, which is 
strategically a good time for networking discussions about your stuff during 
the lunch break while new info is still in delegates minds!

Nick Palmer 


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From: OrionWorks <orionworks charter.net>
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Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 9:08:21 -0500
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Vorts,

An interesting article on the economics of buying Hybrids in today's US market.

http://money.cnn.com/2005/09/23/Autos/hybrid_alternatives/index.htm

http://tinyurl.com/7ccmy

One of the more interesting quotes:

"A hybrid Honda Accord costs about $3,800 more than the comparable non-hybrid version, including purchase, maintenance and insurance costs. Over five years, assuming 15,000 miles of driving per year, you'll make up that cost in gasoline money if the price of gas goes up immediately to $9.20 a gallon and averages that for the whole period."

* * * *

The Prius may be the exception to they hybrid rule. Mr. Storms! You may have made a wise selection!

The jest of the article seems to be: Buy a hybrid if you wish to make a social statement. Don't buy them if you think you'll save yourself money.  Hybrids need to approach the lower prices of non-hybrids if they are going to accomplish what they claim to do, which is save you money.

It's a ghastly thought in my view to think U.S. gas prices would have to rise to over nine bucks a gallon just to make hybrids economically competitive in today's market. I haven't personally verified this fact but I recently talked to a friend who regularly communicates with customers in Europe. She claims there are European countries that are currently paying the equivalent of eight bucks for a gallon'o'gas.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

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Subject: cool pictures
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Gnorts!

I ran across this link, and all of the pictures are pretty cool, but
look at number 6.  The resemblance to magnetic field lines is
astounding.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/05/sci_nat_visions_of_science=
_/html/1.stm


Knuke

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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: AE Economics - Hybrids: Don't buy the hype
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OrionWorks wrote:

>"A hybrid Honda Accord costs about $3,800 more than the comparable 
>non-hybrid version, including purchase, maintenance and insurance costs.

The manufacturers offer the same warranties for all models, so maintenance 
does not cost the owner extra for the first 3 years, or 10 years if you get 
an extended warranty. Maybe it costs Honda more. The Honda Accord Hybrid is 
a "light hybrid" with a 255 hp motor plus "Integrated Motor Assist (IMA)" 
from a 12 kW electric motor. This gives some start up assistance and 
regeneration, but it mainly it means that many functions that are 
mechanically driven with a conventional engine (with scavenged power) are 
driven by electric power instead. This is a good idea. All automobiles are 
heading in this direction, but I doubt it costs an extra $3,000. You can 
get a 12 kW motor a lot cheaper than this! The Honda Insight is a true 
hybrid. The Prius gas motor is 76 hp and the electric motor is 67 hp. Now 
*that's* a hybrid, by gum.

See:

http://www.thecarconnection.com/Vehicle_Reviews/Hybrids_Electrics/2005_Honda_Accord_Hybrid.S274.A8850.html

". . . the IMA powers all cockpit functions independently of the V-6. It 
manages the dual-zone climate control system; it powers the audio system; 
it turns off the gas engine automatically at every stop then restarts it 
instantaneously upon acceleration; and it converts heat produced by braking 
into regenerative electricity."

It does not "convert heat," for goodness sake. It converts kinetic energy.


>  Over five years, assuming 15,000 miles of driving per year, you'll make 
> up that cost in gasoline money if the price of gas goes up immediately to 
> $9.20 a gallon and averages that for the whole period."

That may be true for the Accord, but the Prius and Insight pay for 
themselves in 2 to 3 years at 15,000 miles per year. By the way, the 
average driver goes 11,766 miles per year and gets 22.1 mpg. (Annual Energy 
Review, table 2.9). With gas at $2.50 / gallon the Prius saves the average 
car driver $677 per year, and the average van, pickup truck or SUV driver 
$963 per year. That is assuming the Prius is carelessly driven and it gets 
only 45 mpg.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 30 08:42:47 2005
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Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 09:43:35 -0600
From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
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Steve, the people who analyze the hybrids miss one important point.  The 
Prius is a great car to drive even if it got only 25 mpg. It is 
comfortable, it handles well, and it has a well designed interior.  In 
addition, it has a good record of reliability and its resale value is 
high.  It goes for 600 miles before it needs gas. If a person wants a 
good car, why would they care if it costs $3000 more than another car 
having poorer specifications?  Saving gas is not the only reason to buy 
a Prius.

Regards,
Ed

OrionWorks wrote:

> Vorts,
> 
> An interesting article on the economics of buying Hybrids in today's US market.
> 
> http://money.cnn.com/2005/09/23/Autos/hybrid_alternatives/index.htm
> 
> http://tinyurl.com/7ccmy
> 
> One of the more interesting quotes:
> 
> "A hybrid Honda Accord costs about $3,800 more than the comparable non-hybrid version, including purchase, maintenance and insurance costs. Over five years, assuming 15,000 miles of driving per year, you'll make up that cost in gasoline money if the price of gas goes up immediately to $9.20 a gallon and averages that for the whole period."
> 
> * * * *
> 
> The Prius may be the exception to they hybrid rule. Mr. Storms! You may have made a wise selection!
> 
> The jest of the article seems to be: Buy a hybrid if you wish to make a social statement. Don't buy them if you think you'll save yourself money.  Hybrids need to approach the lower prices of non-hybrids if they are going to accomplish what they claim to do, which is save you money.
> 
> It's a ghastly thought in my view to think U.S. gas prices would have to rise to over nine bucks a gallon just to make hybrids economically competitive in today's market. I haven't personally verified this fact but I recently talked to a friend who regularly communicates with customers in Europe. She claims there are European countries that are currently paying the equivalent of eight bucks for a gallon'o'gas.
> 
> Regards,
> Steven Vincent Johnson
> www.OrionWorks.com
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 30 08:55:55 2005
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From: OrionWorks <orionworks charter.net>
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Subject: Re: AE Economics - Hybrids: Don't buy the hype
Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 10:55:00 -0500
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> From: Edmund Storms 

Hi Ed,

> Steve, the people who analyze the hybrids miss one important 
> point.  The Prius is a great car to drive even if it got only
> 25 mpg. It is comfortable, it handles well, and it has a well
> designed interior.  In addition, it has a good record of
> reliability and its resale value is high.  It goes for 600
> miles before it needs gas. If a person wants a good car, why
> would they care if it costs $3000 more than another car 
> having poorer specifications?  Saving gas is not the only 
> reason to buy a Prius.
> 
> Regards,
> Ed

You ask: "...why would they care if it costs $3000 more than another car."

Four words: "I can't afford it."

Alas, my boat has not yet come in. ;-)

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 30 08:59:23 2005
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Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 16:58:05 +0100
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From: Grimer <f.grimer grimer2.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: AE Economics - Hybrids: Don't buy the hype
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At 10:55 am 30/09/2005 -0400, Jed wrote:
> OrionWorks wrote:
>
>> "A hybrid Honda Accord costs about $3,800 more than the comparable 
>> non-hybrid version, including purchase, maintenance and insurance costs.
>
> The manufacturers offer the same warranties for all models, so maintenance 
> does not cost the owner extra for the first 3 years, or 10 years if you get 
> an extended warranty. Maybe it costs Honda more. The Honda Accord Hybrid is 
> a "light hybrid" with a 255 hp motor plus "Integrated Motor Assist (IMA)" 
> from a 12 kW electric motor. This gives some start up assistance and 
> regeneration, but it mainly it means that many functions that are 
> mechanically driven with a conventional engine (with scavenged power) are 
> driven by electric power instead. This is a good idea. All automobiles are 
> heading in this direction, but I doubt it costs an extra $3,000. You can 
> get a 12 kW motor a lot cheaper than this! The Honda Insight is a true 
> hybrid. 


I presume you meant to write  -  The Honda Insight IS'NT a true hybrid. 

You make a good case out for the Prius, Jed. You should be selling them.
I'd buy one except that having driven for many decades without killing
myself or anyone else I've decided to keep death off the roads and use
public transport. I have to confess that the fact that senior citizens 
of London town get free passes for all public transport is a influential
factor.  ;-)

Frank Grimer








From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 30 09:09:09 2005
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: AE Economics - Hybrids: Don't buy the hype
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Grimer wrote:

>I presume you meant to write  -  The Honda Insight IS'NT a true hybrid.

No, I had it right. The Honda Insight is an "extreme" hybrid, and it gets 
even better mileage than the Prius. The Honda Accord Hybrid (a different 
model) is a regular car with a bag on it, as programmers used to say.

See:

http://automobiles.honda.com/models/model_overview.asp?ModelName=Insight&bhcp=1

http://www.insightcentral.net/

There are many different hybrid engine types and configurations. The term 
is somewhat vague and it has been misused lately.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 30 09:17:28 2005
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: AE Economics - Hybrids: Don't buy the hype
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OrionWorks wrote:

>You ask: "...why would they care if it costs $3000 more than another car."
>
>Four words: "I can't afford it."

You cannot afford something that pays for itself every three or four years 
and lasts ten years? Suppose you lend me $3,000 and I pay you back $677 per 
year for the next 10 years. Can you afford that?

If you drive more than the average, or the price of gasoline stays at 
$3.00/gallon, the payback will be a lot better than that. Then again, if 
you already have an efficient car this does not apply to you.

I have spent a lot of time and auto dealerships lately, because I had some 
body work done, plus a new clutch on the old car. The Prius starts at 
$22,000. I saw many models of midsize cars and SUVs more expensive than 
that. People spend more than $3,000 on leather seats and in-car 
entertainment systems. The payback for leather seats is zero.

- Jed


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OrionWorks wrote:

>>From: Edmund Storms 
> 
> 
> Hi Ed,
> 
> 
>>Steve, the people who analyze the hybrids miss one important 
>>point.  The Prius is a great car to drive even if it got only
>>25 mpg. It is comfortable, it handles well, and it has a well
>>designed interior.  In addition, it has a good record of
>>reliability and its resale value is high.  It goes for 600
>>miles before it needs gas. If a person wants a good car, why
>>would they care if it costs $3000 more than another car 
>>having poorer specifications?  Saving gas is not the only 
>>reason to buy a Prius.
>>
>>Regards,
>>Ed
> 
> 
> You ask: "...why would they care if it costs $3000 more than another car."
> 
> Four words: "I can't afford it."
> 
> Alas, my boat has not yet come in. ;-)

Ah yes, you raise an entirely different point.  We buy what we can 
afford regardless of any other consideration.  If I could afford it, I 
would love to have a 747 I could fly anywhere, just like Bush.  But 
alas, my ship has not come in either.  So I buy a Prius instead.  I 
guess we all have different sized ships.;-)

Regards,

Ed
> 
> Regards,
> Steven Vincent Johnson
> www.OrionWorks.com
> 
> 

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Excellent points, Ed. The Prius is far more than a social statement =
(although it is that as well)

Let me add two more reasons why anyone contemplating this situation now, =
can and should "bite-the-bullet" and take out a larger car-loan, or =
lease out-of-state (to get the rebate) if necessary - for the hybrid =
vis-a-vis the alternative vehicle.

1) Supply and demand (economics from the manufacturers standpoint). The =
$3000 "premium" for the hybrid is not absolute, not even "real" but is =
instead a temporary function of higher costs of parts presently due to =
lower manufacturing volume. When the Prius (drivetrain) is produced in =
yearly numbers of a million or more, rather than 1-200,000 then there =
will be very little difference in cost - at most $100 for the extra =
copper and control circuits. **Hastening that time frame** for really =
high volume - by a year of two - can be anyone's "gift" to us all in =
paying that temporary "premium".=20

OK, that is just an enhanced social statement, but it is enhanced!

2) As Fred Sparber says, "a farmer will spend a dollar to save a dime" =
and this observation does NOT mean that farmers are spendthrifts. Quite =
the contrary. They realize that even if they are only saving $300 in =
fuel costs this year for the $3000 extra cost, that this is not the =
end-of-story. If the car is high quality and they keep the car 10 years, =
gas will likely be a minimum of $10 gallon then, and they will have =
saved $1000 per year in the last few years of ownership. Plus they value =
their time. If over the course of 10 years, they have cut the number of =
fill-up stops in half, from 2 per week down to one that is worth about =
150 hours of their time at forty-per... so... all in all, the cost of =
comparative ownership over the useable time frame is far greater than =
this years' fuel savings. Not to mention in 2015 gasoline could very =
possibly hit $20/gallon and up - if the "Peak-Oil" computer models are =
correct.

Check out these numbers (short Atlanta commute) which look more =
favorable for Prius than some numbers supplied by others:

http://www.ajc.com/business/content/business/0905/25bizgasmath.html


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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2722" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
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<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Excellent points, Ed. The Prius is far =
more than a=20
social statement (although it is that as well)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Let me add two more reasons why anyone=20
contemplating this situation now,&nbsp;can and should "bite-the-bullet" =
and take=20
out a larger car-loan, or lease out-of-state (to get the rebate) if =
necessary=20
-&nbsp;for the hybrid vis-a-vis the alternative vehicle.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>1) Supply and demand (economics from =
the=20
manufacturers standpoint). The $3000 "premium" for the hybrid&nbsp;is =
not=20
absolute, not even "real" but is instead a temporary function of higher =
costs of=20
parts presently due to lower manufacturing volume. When the Prius =
(drivetrain)=20
is produced in yearly numbers of a million or more, rather than=20
1-200,000&nbsp;then there will be very little difference in cost - at =
most $100=20
for the extra copper and control circuits. **Hastening that time frame** =
for=20
really high volume - by a year of two - can be anyone's "gift" to us all =
in=20
paying that temporary "premium". </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>OK, that is just an enhanced social =
statement, but=20
it is enhanced!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>2) As Fred Sparber says, "a farmer will =
spend a=20
dollar to save a dime" and this observation does NOT mean that farmers =
are=20
spendthrifts. Quite the contrary. They realize that even if they are =
only saving=20
$300 in fuel costs this year for the $3000 extra cost, that this is not =
the=20
end-of-story. If the car is high quality and they&nbsp;keep the car 10 =
years,=20
gas will likely be a minimum of $10 gallon then, and they will have =
saved $1000=20
per year in the last few years of ownership. Plus they value their time. =
If over=20
the course of 10 years, they have cut the number of fill-up stops in =
half, from=20
2 per week down to one that is worth about 150 hours of their time at=20
forty-per... so... all in all, the cost of comparative ownership over =
the=20
useable time frame is far greater than this years' fuel savings. Not to =
mention=20
in 2015 gasoline could very possibly hit $20/gallon and up -&nbsp;if the =

"Peak-Oil" computer models are correct.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Check out these numbers (short Atlanta =
commute)=20
which look more favorable for Prius than some numbers supplied by=20
others:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"http://www.ajc.com/business/content/business/0905/25bizgasmath.ht=
ml">http://www.ajc.com/business/content/business/0905/25bizgasmath.html</=
A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0035_01C5C5A2.503BD740--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 30 09:51:12 2005
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Have slideshow, will network!

At 02:40 AM 9/30/2005, you wrote:
>That's great Steve, looks like you're on mid to late morning, which is 
>strategically a good time for networking discussions about your stuff 
>during the lunch break while new info is still in delegates minds!
>
>Nick Palmer
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 30 10:00:02 2005
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Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 09:57:13 -0700
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Steven Krivit <steven newenergytimes.com>
Subject: Re: AE Economics - Hybrids: Do buy the hype!
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If this has been discussed before and I missed it, please just kindly alert 
me to the thread and/or date if possible.

Based on *today's* battery technology, and perhaps based on average 
driving, mixed city/hwy, when would the Prius battery bank need to be replaced?
What would the cost be of the new bank?

I know when I bought a new battery for my Makita drill a few years ago, it 
cost half the price of the drill.


Steve

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 30 10:16:36 2005
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Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 18:15:16 +0100
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Grimer <f.grimer grimer2.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: AE Economics - Hybrids: Don't buy the hype
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At 12:08 pm 30/09/2005 -0400, Jed wrote:


> Grimer wrote:
>
>> I presume you meant to write  -  The Honda Insight IS'NT a true hybrid.
>
> No, I had it right. The Honda Insight is an "extreme" hybrid, and it gets 
> even better mileage than the Prius. The Honda Accord Hybrid (a different 
> model) is a regular car with a bag on it, as programmers used to say.
>
> See:
>
> http://automobiles.honda.com/models/model_overview.asp?ModelName=Insight&bhcp=1
>
> http://www.insightcentral.net/
>
> There are many different hybrid engine types and configurations. The term 
> is somewhat vague and it has been misused lately.
>
>- Jed


Mea culpa. I obviously read it too quickly and failed 
to distinguish between Thing 1 and Thing 2   8-(

Frank



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Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 13:23:19 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: AE Economics - Hybrids: Do buy the hype!
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Jones Beene wrote:

>Check out these numbers (short Atlanta commute) which look more favorable 
>for Prius than some numbers supplied by others:
>
>http://www.ajc.com/business/content/business/0905/25bizgasmath.html

The numbers in this article mix apples and oranges somewhat. They are a bit 
more optimistic than the ones I posted, but it all makes sense. The lady 
interviewed in the article gets 38 to 45 mpg in Atlanta traffic, which 
tells me she has not learned how to drive the thing yet. I get 45 to 49. 
Hybrid cars are more sensitive to the driver's skill and technique than 
ordinary cars, as we saw the other day when someone got 110 mpg. The text 
also says, "the Explorer gets about 11 mpg."

The comparison at the bottom of the article says:

Car vs. car
Commuting: paying $2.50 a gallon for gas
Average miles per gallon
Ford Explorer: 16
Toyota Prius: 55
. . .

These are the official city/highway combined mileage. That's a reasonable 
way to compare the cars. The Prius gets 3.4 times better mileage.

The way this lady drives her Explorer and Prius, she gets 3.8 times better 
mileage, about the same ratio as the official numbers. If she learns to 
drive the way I do, she will get 4.3 times. And if she drives a car pool 
with two other people she will get 13 times more passenger-miles per gallon 
than the average Atlanta SUV driver. So there you have it: this is how we 
could reduce fuel consumption by an order of magnitude. Throw in plug-in 
hybrids and pretty soon you have reduced petroleum consumption by two 
orders of magnitude. The problem is easier to fix than people realize.

Also, it should be noted that the Ford Explorer costs $33,000, so with a 
base model Prius you save $11,000 up front. So much for the $3,000 
"premium." (Although I expect Explorers are selling at a big discount these 
days.)

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 30 10:26:15 2005
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Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 12:25:08 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Are Charge Clusters the Answer to Free Energy?
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>I recently came across :
>
>www.padrak.com/ine/FB97_1.html
>
>It's an article called "High density Charge Clusters and Energy
Conversion Results"

I had the same idea, unfortunately Ken Shoulders said, in a private 
correspondence, that nuclear reactions which result from EV's don't 
yield any energy.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 30 10:46:58 2005
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Subject: RE: AE Economics - Hybrids: Do buy the hype!
Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 12:45:50 -0500
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The Prius needs to be compared with a car of similar size - like a
Corolla.  On that basis, savings might be hard to come by. 

-----Original Message-----
From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:JedRothwell mindspring.com] 
Sent: Friday, September 30, 2005 1:23 PM
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Re: AE Economics - Hybrids: Do buy the hype!

Jones Beene wrote:

>Check out these numbers (short Atlanta commute) which look more 
>favorable for Prius than some numbers supplied by others:
>
>http://www.ajc.com/business/content/business/0905/25bizgasmath.html

The numbers in this article mix apples and oranges somewhat. They are a
bit more optimistic than the ones I posted, but it all makes sense. The
lady interviewed in the article gets 38 to 45 mpg in Atlanta traffic,
which tells me she has not learned how to drive the thing yet. I get 45
to 49. 
Hybrid cars are more sensitive to the driver's skill and technique than
ordinary cars, as we saw the other day when someone got 110 mpg. The
text also says, "the Explorer gets about 11 mpg."

The comparison at the bottom of the article says:

Car vs. car
Commuting: paying $2.50 a gallon for gas Average miles per gallon Ford
Explorer: 16 Toyota Prius: 55 . . .

These are the official city/highway combined mileage. That's a
reasonable way to compare the cars. The Prius gets 3.4 times better
mileage.

The way this lady drives her Explorer and Prius, she gets 3.8 times
better mileage, about the same ratio as the official numbers. If she
learns to drive the way I do, she will get 4.3 times. And if she drives
a car pool with two other people she will get 13 times more
passenger-miles per gallon than the average Atlanta SUV driver. So there
you have it: this is how we could reduce fuel consumption by an order of
magnitude. Throw in plug-in hybrids and pretty soon you have reduced
petroleum consumption by two orders of magnitude. The problem is easier
to fix than people realize.

Also, it should be noted that the Ford Explorer costs $33,000, so with a
base model Prius you save $11,000 up front. So much for the $3,000
"premium." (Although I expect Explorers are selling at a big discount
these
days.)

- Jed


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Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 14:12:25 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: AE Economics - Hybrids: Do buy the hype!
In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050930095425.02b0f590 mail.newenergytimes.com
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Steven Krivit wrote:

>Based on *today's* battery technology, and perhaps based on average 
>driving, mixed city/hwy, when would the Prius battery bank need to be replaced?

Toyota says that so far, not a single battery bank has been replaced in a 
production model car. But the cars have only been in use for six years. The 
batteries are expected to last 200,000 miles. The warranty says:

"Hybrid-Related Component Coverage: Prius' hybrid-related components, 
including the HV battery, battery control module, hybrid control module and 
inverter with converter, are covered for 8 years/100,000 miles. The HV 
battery may have longer coverage under emissions warranty."

http://www.toyota.com/vehicles/warranty/warranty.html

In short, the batteries will probably last longer than most of the cars, 
and thus will never need replacing.


>What would the cost be of the new bank?

Dunno. Probably not much. The battery pack consists of 28 7.2 volt NiMH 
batteries, weighing 1 kg each. I do not know what they cost, but I think 
similar ones for scooters and wheelchairs cost $50 - $150 retail.

http://techinfo.lexus.com/public/main/2ndprius.pdf, p. 12

Note that a plug-in hybrid would require a much larger battery pack.

- Jed


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From: "Alex Caliostro" <caliostro1795 hotmail.com>
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Subject: better nuclear fuel
Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 12:33:17 -0600
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Purdue engineers create safer, more efficient nuclear fuel, model its 
performance
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

September 28, 2005
Purdue University nuclear engineers have developed an advanced nuclear fuel 
that could save millions of dollars annually by lasting longer and burning 
more efficiently than conventional fuels, and researchers also have created 
a mathematical model to further develop the technology.

continued at

http://www.physorg.com/news6834.html

_____
-alex

_________________________________________________________________
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 30 11:45:42 2005
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Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 14:43:51 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: AE Economics - Hybrids: Do buy the hype!
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Zell, Chris wrote:

>The Prius needs to be compared with a car of similar size - like a
>Corolla.  On that basis, savings might be hard to come by.

I don't know much about the Corolla . . . Okay, See:

http://autos.yahoo.com/newcars/toyota_corolla_2005/3949/model_overview.html

The 2005 Corolla is "a 4-door 5-passenger family sedan." Yes, that sounds 
comparable. There are four models. Most get 32/41 mpg. Model #3 costs 
$14,825 MSRP.

The Prius is 60/51 mpg, and costs $21,275 MSRP

Okay, comparing the two, let's say the combined mpgs are 36.5 and 55.5 
respectively, and the Prius costs $6,450 more. Mr. Average driver goes 
11,766 miles per year, so the Corolla burns 110 gallons a years more. At 
$2.50 per gallon, that's $275 extra, so you are right, it would take 23 
years to pay for the difference. Most Toyotas last ~10 years.

However, my point is that a lot of people spend thousands of dollars extra 
on cars for things like leather seats and deluxe sound systems. If you are 
going to spend extra on a car, why not buy something that pays for itself, 
or in the case of the Corolla versus Prius, pays back half.

Actually, the Prius feels like a luxury car to me, with leather seats, 
ultra-cool cabin layout, spiffy handling and whatnot, so maybe we should 
compare it to Model #4, the Corolla XRS, $17,555 MSRP, 26/34 mpg. Cranking 
the number through, the Prius costs $3,720 more, but it burns an 174 
gallons less per year, saving $435. So payback takes 8.5 years.

Let the price of gas go up to $4.00/gallon and these numbers would change 
considerably, but I'll bet the prices of cars would also change to reflect 
the new economics.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 30 12:00:35 2005
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Vortexians;

I have been asked my opinion of what this man says.

http://www.surfingtheapocalypse.net/cgi-bin/archive.cgi?read=68325

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 30 12:03:31 2005
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Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 15:02:18 -0400
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Subject: Prius spec. correction
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I wrote:

"Actually, the Prius feels like a luxury car to me, with leather seats, 
ultra-cool cabin layout, spiffy handling and whatnot . . ."

Oops. The $21,275 MSRP standard model has cloth seats. But so does the 
Corolla XRS. Anyway, even the standard model feels like a plush luxury car 
to me. (And I am used to driving expensive cars.)

The Prius controls and dashboard make you feel like you have finally made 
it to the 21st century. It is 20 years ahead every other car, including the 
Volvo, Mercedes-Benz, etc. From the engineering standpoint it is a museum 
quality masterpiece, like an early Rolls-Royce, a Duesenberg, or a Cray 
supercomputer.

- Jed


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From: "Alex Caliostro" <caliostro1795 hotmail.com>
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Subject: human powered laptop
Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 13:05:16 -0600
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remember the hand cranked radios art bell pushed for y2k

"The $100 clockwork laptop that helps the poor to learn
>From Chris Ayres in Los Angeles

THE world’s least sophisticated laptop computer was announced yesterday — 
and it runs by clockwork.

The machine, which will cost less than $100 (£56), is not aimed at the 
cutting edge of corporate calculation but instead is destined for the poor 
of the planet.

The inventor of the robust laptop hopes to distribute it to tens of millions 
of children throughout the developing world, helping to bridge the 
information gap between rich and poor.

One of its most useful features, the clockwork hand-crank, is based on the 
wind-up radio invented in Britain by Trevor Baylis more than a decade ago."

continued at

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0%2C%2C11069-1804700%2C00.html

ps  there is also a strong internet rumor that google plans a free 
ubiquitous wireless internet access service based on the new wimax standards

_________________________________________________________________
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 30 12:19:46 2005
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Steve, the dealer said that they guarantee the battery to last to 
100,000 miles but they have yet to replace one.  I expect in a few years 
a battery upgrade will be available for a modest cost.  Of course, a 
trade-in would be much cheaper than a new battery.

Regards,
Ed

Steven Krivit wrote:

> If this has been discussed before and I missed it, please just kindly 
> alert me to the thread and/or date if possible.
> 
> Based on *today's* battery technology, and perhaps based on average 
> driving, mixed city/hwy, when would the Prius battery bank need to be 
> replaced?
> What would the cost be of the new bank?
> 
> I know when I bought a new battery for my Makita drill a few years ago, 
> it cost half the price of the drill.
> 
> 
> Steve
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 30 12:19:53 2005
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Wonderful! It looks like a capable machine, too, not a toy. See the specs 
and images here:

http://laptop.media.mit.edu/

http://laptop.media.mit.edu/laptop-images.html

- Jed


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Subject: RE: AE Economics - Hybrids: Do buy the hype!
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-----Original Message-----
From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:JedRothwell mindspring.com] 
Sent: Friday, September 30, 2005 2:44 PM
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: RE: AE Economics - Hybrids: Do buy the hype!

Zell, Chris wrote:

>The Prius needs to be compared with a car of similar size - like a 
>Corolla.  On that basis, savings might be hard to come by.

I really, really hope that the Japanese can bring down the hybrid
premium by a LOT and fast.  I am old enough to recall similar arguments
about
Solar homes and panels that would appeal to the rich - made in the
'80's.

The real horror here would be a situation in which the premium NEVER
comes down in real dollars - enough to justify the difference. That
would
suggest that the price difference represents the value of the additional
energy put into the vehicle and thus - (gasp!)  NEVER  WOULD MAKE
ANY NET DIFFERENCE in energy consumption.  It's all well and good for
'experts' to calculate but the economic reality MUST  agree.

It reminds me of a debate between Lovins and Herman Khan many decades
ago.  Khan claimed that you could just drill ever deeper and Lovins
countered that the extra drilling represented more fossil fuel energy
expended, so that at some point,  you couldn't justify going deeper.

Damn! I wish somebody would invent a super battery and end this
nightmare!  


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 30 12:39:46 2005
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: What kind of battery upgrade?
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Edmund Storms wrote:

>I expect in a few years a battery upgrade will be available for a modest cost.

Ed: What kind of upgrade are you expecting? Larger capacity? Plug-in 
capability?

The way the car is engineered now I do not see much point to increasing the 
battery capacity, unless the car is converted into a plug in. The battery 
does not saturate often, except when driving down mountains. (But then, you 
*live* on the mountain.)

The first plug-in conversion kits are expected next year and they will cost 
$12,000.

http://www.calcars.org/priusplus.html
http://www.edrivesystems.com/

They will have a "Valence Saphion lithium-ion" battery pack about 3 times 
bigger than the present Prius battery. Toyota warns that the kits will void 
the warranty, but I expect they will reach an agreement to certify the 
kits. Toyota has been cool to the idea of plug-in conversion, but they are 
being pressured by national on-line Prius user groups. These groups are 
wildly enthusiastic about the plan, and they are influencing Toyota's 
designers and executives to an unprecedented extent. This shows how the 
Internet affects everything, including automotive design.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 30 13:08:01 2005
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Not quite super, but amazing batteries are here
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Zell, Chris, who pines for better batteries (with good reason!) writes:

>Damn! I wish somebody would invent a super battery and end this
>nightmare!

Actually, in recent years, incremental improvements have added up to 
remarkable overall progress in batteries. We do not have a super battery, 
but look at the specifications for the Valence Saphion lithium-ion battery 
that has has been selected for the plug-in Prius+. This gives the car a 50 
mile range in electric mode, and it is only three times bigger than the 
present batteries, which power the car for 1 mile. And the present 
batteries are better than the 1999 models. See:

http://www.valence.com/saphion.asp


>I really, really hope that the Japanese can bring down the hybrid premium 
>by a LOT and fast.

They have already, and I think they will continue to do so.

And we have not even started to tap the potential of the plug-in hybrids 
yet. I think they have a tremendous impact.


>It reminds me of a debate between Lovins and Herman Khan many decades
>ago.  Khan claimed that you could just drill ever deeper and Lovins
>countered that the extra drilling represented more fossil fuel energy
>expended, so that at some point,  you couldn't justify going deeper.

If they were talking about drilling for oil they are both fools. There is 
no oil below 15,000 feet, and we reached that depth in 1938, as I mentioned 
yesterday. I do not think there is much natural gas down there, either.

Lovins is twice a fool at times. If we could find more oil simply by 
digging deeper, people would have discovered ways to drastically reduce the 
cost of digging, by now. Duffeyes says that drill bit technology has 
matured and the cost is not likely to fall, but I think that is only 
because there is no need to dig deeper or bigger holes. The equipment has 
been optimized for the required depth.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 30 13:19:48 2005
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8y or 100k miles, that sounds pretty good

Thanks

s

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 30 13:23:56 2005
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> Zell, Chris, who pines for better batteries (with good reason!) writes:
>
>>Damn! I wish somebody would invent a super battery and end this
>>nightmare!

Twice the density of lithium:

http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/ultracell/laptop-fuel-cell-battery-122504.php

Craig Haynie



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 30 13:30:17 2005
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Subject: Prius battery warranty
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Steven Krivit wrote:

>8y or 100k miles, that sounds pretty good

People in Prius discussion groups say they have gone 200,000 miles without 
a problem.

My lead-acid electric bicycle battery had to be replaced after ~2000 miles 
(~150 recharges). Not so good.

- Jed


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Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Edmund Storms wrote:
> 
>> I expect in a few years a battery upgrade will be available for a 
>> modest cost.
> 
> 
> Ed: What kind of upgrade are you expecting? Larger capacity? Plug-in 
> capability?

A Li ion battery of the same size as the present battery would allow 
much more efficient use of the electric system.
> 
> The way the car is engineered now I do not see much point to increasing 
> the battery capacity, unless the car is converted into a plug in. The 
> battery does not saturate often, except when driving down mountains. 
> (But then, you *live* on the mountain.)

The over charging is not so much of a problem here compared to complete 
draining of the battery when going up a modest hill.  A larger capacity 
would allow greater efficiency and perhaps a change in the algorithm to 
turn off the engine completely when the battery was charged above a set 
level.
> 
> The first plug-in conversion kits are expected next year and they will 
> cost $12,000.

This is a bit steep, but I expect this feature would be much less if it 
were a factory option.  As you observe, this technology is the wave of 
the future.  So much for the hydrogen economy or pure electric as being 
pushed by the American power structure.

Ed
> 
> http://www.calcars.org/priusplus.html
> http://www.edrivesystems.com/
> 
> They will have a "Valence Saphion lithium-ion" battery pack about 3 
> times bigger than the present Prius battery. Toyota warns that the kits 
> will void the warranty, but I expect they will reach an agreement to 
> certify the kits. Toyota has been cool to the idea of plug-in 
> conversion, but they are being pressured by national on-line Prius user 
> groups. These groups are wildly enthusiastic about the plan, and they 
> are influencing Toyota's designers and executives to an unprecedented 
> extent. This shows how the Internet affects everything, including 
> automotive design.
> 
> - Jed
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 30 14:40:03 2005
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Subject: Prius battery info. - battery pack cost is now roughly $3,000
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Apparently these batteries cost ~$100 each, about the same as wheelchair 
batteries. See:

http://www.calcars.org/calcars-faq.html

QUOTE:

We have information on standard Prius Panasonic batteries. Their 
replacement cost now is under $3,000; they're waranteed for 100,000-150,000 
miles in different states. By then, [by the time you go 150,000 miles] 
they'll probably cost well under $1,000. We can extrapolate similar trends 
for PHEV [plug in hybrid vehicle] batteries. Toyota's Nickel-Metal Hydride 
batteries are considered "non-hazardous waste" -- see "high voltage 
electrical systems" Toyota has had a battery recycling program since 1998 
and even offers dealers a $200 "bounty" to dealers to ensure batteries 
aren't just thrown away (described at end of linked document). Lithium-Ion 
batteries share many characteristics with Ni-MH. 


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Edmund Storms wrote:

>The over charging is not so much of a problem here compared to complete 
>draining of the battery when going up a modest hill.  A larger capacity 
>would allow greater efficiency and perhaps a change in the algorithm to 
>turn off the engine completely when the battery was charged above a set level.

Ah yes.

Did you know the present previous model can run in fully electric mode for 
about a kilometer, up to 35 mph? The models sold in Singapore and other 
crowded Asian cities have a button on the dashboard, on the lower left, 
that enables this. This button is not installed in the U.S. version, but 
there is a place on the dashboard for it, and the feature is fully enabled 
in the computer and dashboard wiring. People are selling cheap kits to 
install a button. With a larger battery pack you will be able to go several 
kilometers in fully electric mode. It does not save any energy however, so 
even thought it is cool to run through the neighborhood without making 
noise, I wouldn't bother.


>>The first plug-in conversion kits are expected next year and they will 
>>cost $12,000.
>
>This is a bit steep, but I expect this feature would be much less if it 
>were a factory option.

That will be the price for fanatical early adapters and geeks. I am sure it 
will fall very quickly, to something like $5,000. (I estimate this from the 
future likely cost of the batteries -- the main expense.) For person who 
commutes long distances every day, or for someone who operates a delivery 
service, this will be a very good deal.

The upcoming Prius plug-in hybrid kit is described here:

http://www.edrivesystems.com/Edrive-FAQ.html

Some interesting quotes:

Plug-in hybrids offer the best chance of transitioning away from fossil 
fuels towards a renewably powered transportation future. Full sized 
electric vehicles suffer from limited range and may require up to 3 times 
the battery capacity of an EDrive equipped plug-in hybrid and still not be 
capable of satisfying 100% of a personís driving needs. At present, 
hydrogen fuel cell powered vehicles suffer from astronomical cost (over 
$500,000), limited range (80-180 miles), low efficiency (compared to 
batteries) and most notably a lack of economically priced and widely 
available fuel. . . .

Q: Doesn't plugging in the car just trade oil pollution for coal pollution?
A: Californians are spoiled by one of the cleanest electrical grids in the 
U.S., but even where coal supplies much of the electrical power, plugging 
in vehicles is still a smart environmental solution. One thing that is 
often overlooked when electric power plant pollution is discussed, is the 
upstream pollution required to extract oil, transport it, refine it, 
distribute the gasoline then refuel a vehicle (vapor emissions). Comparing 
the national electrical grid to the average gallon of refined gasoline 
shows that the upstream pollution for gasoline production on average is 
much higher than that of the average electricity source. [A VERY IMPORTANT 
POINT!]

Q: What is the EDrive system for the Toyota Prius and how does it work?
A: The EDrive system replaces the existing Prius NiMH battery and Toyota 
battery control computer with a larger Valence Saphion lithium-ion battery 
and a proprietary battery monitoring and control system developed by 
EnergyCS. The new system allows the Prius to be charged at home using a 
standard 110/120V home outlet. . . .

Q: How long does it take to charge?
A: The EDrive lithium battery system is 9kWh or kilowatt-hours (7 times 
larger than the Prius NiMH battery). The charger used by the EDrive system 
is 1 kilowatt (kw), about the same as a hair dryer. If the battery were 
totally depleted, it could take 9 hours (9hrs * 1kW = 9kWh) to charge the 
battery.

Q11: How is the EV range so much larger than a standard Prius with only 7 
times as much battery?
A: The standard Prius has a 1.3kWh NiMH battery but only uses about 25% of 
it (or 300Wh). The EDrive lithium battery is 9kWh but up to 80% of it is 
used (or 7200Wh). Therefore the EDrive system actually has 24x more energy 
(7200/300) at its disposal.

Q: What will be the Warranty on the EDrive system?
A: The warranty for the EDrive installation, electronics and Valence 
batteries is yet to be determined. The details of the warranty will not be 
known until the commercial product is released. [I GATHER THIS IS BEING 
NEGOTIATED.]



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 30 15:05:44 2005
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Actually, I'd say don't buy the hype, but buy the car anyway.
It's true that if many of the features incorporated into the
Prius were incorporated into a non-hybrid you could have a
car that got within shaving distance of the same mileage for
$3000 less.

By buying a hybrid, you help advance the technology to the
point where it will really make a difference.  For example,
when the regenerative braking is able to recover a much higher
portion of the lost energy it will all have been worth it, no?

This could be accomplished by such means as a supercapacitor to
serve as intermediate storage for the battery, a flywheel for the
same purpose, or a more advanced battery.  These things might
even be available as retrofits.

M.

_______________________________________________
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Subject: Re: AE Economics - Hybrids: Don't buy the hype
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Michael Foster wrote:

>Actually, I'd say don't buy the hype, but buy the car anyway. It's true 
>that if many of the features incorporated into the Prius were incorporated 
>into a non-hybrid you could have a car that got within shaving distance of 
>the same mileage for $3000 less.

Yes, you could *barely* achieve the same performance. You would end up with 
a small, stripped-down, noisy, dangerous and underpowered conventional car, 
whereas the Prius is a midsize luxury car, very safe and quiet. The reason 
you can still achieve this kind of performance is what might be called the 
"last stage flowering" effect. Obsolescent technology borrows from the next 
generation and leaps ahead in the last stages of its development, just 
before it vanishes. The first generation of practical oceangoing steamships 
were only little faster than the fastest clipper sailing ships, but 20 
years later they were *far* faster, bigger and safer. The clipper ships 
were fast because they borrowed some steam technology (steam tugboats) and 
because they tapped into the burgeoning advances in the science of 
shipbuilding.

Hybrids have just began, whereas conventional cars have been under 
development for 120 years. When hybrids hit their stride they will leave 
conventional designs in the dust.

Hybrids are derived from conventional cars, just as steamships were derived 
from sailing ships. Steamships rapidly assumed new shapes, and incorporated 
advances and capabilities that could never have been installed into sailing 
ships, such as steam winches, and far larger hulls and capacity. The same 
will happen with hybrids. They will diverge, and advance. Obviously, the 
most important advance will be the plug-in hybrid.

I find it fascinating that the European auto manufacturers have the same 
attitude as Michael Foster. They are saying: "What is so great about 
hybrids? Our diesel cars get even better mpg performance." They are smart 
cookies (and so is Mike) but they are missing the point.


>By buying a hybrid, you help advance the technology to the
>point where it will really make a difference.

I think it really makes a difference now. The Prius already gives you 10 
miles per gallon more than the best small car on the road, and it carries a 
lot more stuff, in comfort and safety.


>For example, when the regenerative braking is able to recover a much 
>higher portion of the lost energy it will all have been worth it, no?
>
>This could be accomplished by such means as a supercapacitor to serve as 
>intermediate storage for the battery, a flywheel for the same purpose . . .

That would be a kludge, I think. Both would have large disadvantages 
compared to batteries. As I said, the Prius is an engineering masterpiece, 
with the systems superbly integrated together.


>. . .  or a more advanced battery.

That would make it a hybrid, wouldn't it?


>These things might even be available as retrofits.

Retrofits are fine for geeks and early adopters, but they will never sell 
to the broader public.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 30 15:50:13 2005
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Subject: And the same goes for CF
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I wrote:

"Yes, you could *barely* achieve the same performance. You would end up 
with a small, stripped-down, noisy, dangerous and underpowered conventional 
car, whereas the Prius is a midsize luxury car, very safe and quiet. The 
reason you can still achieve this kind of performance is what might be 
called the "last stage flowering" effect. Obsolescent technology borrows 
from the next generation and leaps ahead in the last stages of its 
development, just before it vanishes. . . ."

I discussed these ideas in the book, and also the distinction between 
disruptive and sustaining technology. All this stuff will be vital to the 
understanding and development of CF, if it ever gets off the ground. Even 
now many people echo the European automakers, saying "what would be the big 
deal with CF? We already have fuel cells that could go for weeks. We have 
fission reactors that generate a million times more energy than coal. Solar 
cells are inexhaustible and non polluting. Why would CF be so much better?" 
The answer in Chapter 2 of my book.

Another example was the response of many mainframe computer guys to the 
personal computer. "What's the big deal? That thing is a toy. It doesn't 
even have a hard disk!" They missed the point.

The whole pattern of retrofits for geeks, followed by public acceptance and 
so on is very instructive.

I find this stuff fascinating! There are so many interesting parallels in 
the history of technology, and in current events such as the development of 
plug in hybrids.

- Jed


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Subject: Re: AE Economics - Hybrids: Don't buy the hype
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Well, I just paid around $7.50 per gallon last week - but that was British 
gallons (4.54 litres)

Nick Palmer 


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In reply to  Jed Rothwell's message of Fri, 30 Sep 2005 16:06:40
-0400:
Hi,
[snip]
>that has has been selected for the plug-in Prius+. This gives the car a 50 
>mile range in electric mode, and it is only three times bigger than the 
>present batteries, which power the car for 1 mile. And the present 
>batteries are better than the 1999 models. See:
>
>http://www.valence.com/saphion.asp
[snip]
>And we have not even started to tap the potential of the plug-in hybrids 
>yet. I think they have a tremendous impact.

Jed, do you happen to have any figures handy re. the percentage of
km traveled that involve distances of less than 50 miles (my guess
is this would cover most commuting, and hence most travel).
[snip]
>If they were talking about drilling for oil they are both fools. There is 
>no oil below 15,000 feet, and we reached that depth in 1938, as I mentioned 

Untrue, according to
http://www.lewrockwell.com/crispin/crispin11.html, though a quick
goggle search doesn't reveal a great deal of supporting evidence.


[snip]
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

In a town full of candlestick makers, 
everyone lives in the light,
In a town full of thieves, 
there is only one candle, 
and everyone lives in the night.

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Sept. 30, 2005

Vortex,

It seems a long term testing of a Hydrogen fueled system for a car has run into a problem (fatal?) just prior to release for sale to the public by United Nuclear Research. This occurred on Sept. 14th. It is the classic problem that people familiar with metallurgy have run into since early times. 
This is Hydrogen Embrittlement. It occurred on  metals such as iron, aluminum, and other metals that made up an automobile engine. 
As CF experimenters know Hydrogen ( and D2) is a very active element  on "condensed matter". Well, so much for a direct hydrogen fueled power source --- maybe. Perhaps a hydrogen fuel cell powered electric motor may be the route to go.

-ak-
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<DIV>Sept. 30, 2005</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Vortex,</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>It seems a long term testing of a Hydrogen fueled system for a car has run into a problem (fatal?) just prior to release for sale to the public by United Nuclear Research. This occurred on Sept. 14th. It is the classic problem that people familiar with metallurgy have run into since early times. </DIV>
<DIV>This is Hydrogen Embrittlement.&nbsp;It occurred on &nbsp;metals such as iron, aluminum, and other metals that made up an automobile engine. </DIV>
<DIV>As CF experimenters know Hydrogen ( and D2) is a very active element&nbsp; on "condensed matter". Well, so much for a direct hydrogen fueled power source --- maybe.&nbsp;Perhaps a hydrogen fuel cell powered electric motor may be the route to go.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>-ak-</DIV>
<P></P></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 21:18:03 -0400 (EDT)
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After spending a couple of night sweating whether I
was going to be evacuated, or worse yet, loosing the
new house I've been living in for only four months,
I began to wonder how many MW hours per acre were going
up in smoke.

I suppose it's akin to wondering how much power could be
could be extracted from a hurricane.  It's a disaster,
but with intriguing possibilities.  Fortunately, there
was no loss of life, and only one residence burned.

M.




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Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 30 19:03:29 2005
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Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 19:00:12 -0700
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From: Steven Krivit <steven newenergytimes.com>
Subject: Cold Fusion Radio Show on NPR
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(Sent to Bruce Gellerman of NPR)

Dear Bruce,

I read your transcript on the NPR radio show  (=20
<http://www.loe.org/shows/segments.htm?programID=3D05-P13-00039&segmentID=3D=
2>http://www.loe.org/shows/segments.htm?programID=3D05-P13-00039&segmentID=
=3D2=20
) and have the following comments I wish to share with you: (Quotes from=20
your transcript precede my comments in italics.)

"What has been called "the most enormous conflict in basic science of the=20
20th century" began on March 23, 1989."
I've never heard it called "conflict" before. Typically it has been called=
=20
much worse. But I don't mind the improvement at all.

"Critics call them a cult, but these true believers are sustained by=20
laboratory results they say prove cold fusion can produce unlimited, safe,=
=20
non-polluting energy."
"True believers?" Ooops. For a scientist, that's akin to dispensing a=20
racial slur to an ethnic person. May I suggest an alternate term:=20
"committed researchers?"

"In 1993, Richard Garwin inspected Michael McKubre's lab on behalf of the=20
Department of Defense."
Garwin has a duty to the public. He should not be let off the hook so=20
easily. I'm glad to see that you are helping bring this to light.

"Szpak and Boss have published the results of their experiment in a=20
prestigious, peer-reviewed physics journal. And Japanese scientists have=20
reported similar findings."
THANK YOU FOR MENTIONING THIS! This is so important for the public to know=
=20
about the published papers.

"[Park] calls cold fusion an illusion =96 nothing more than wishful=20
interpretation of data by researchers."
This appears to be a quote from his book from several years ago. Park is=20
starting to soften his dialogue about cold fusion in the last few years.

Overall comments: Excellent job Bruce!  You covered the topic fairly,=20
accurately and honestly. Naturally it won't appease the other two hundred=20
scientists whose work was not featured, but that's besides the point. I=20
think your report provides value to the public. I would encourage the cold=
=20
fusion community to welcome you back for your next program.

cc: Cold fusion researchers worldwide


Steven B. Krivit
Editor, New Energy Times
Executive Director, New Energy Institute Inc.
<http://www.newenergytimes.com/>NEW<http://www.newenergytimes.com/> ENERGY=
=20
TIMES
Your best source for cold fusion news and information.

11664 National Blvd. Suite 142
Los Angeles, California, USA 90064
<http://www.newenergytimes.com/>www.newenergytimes.com
Cell phone: (310) 721-5919
Office Phone: (310) 470-8189
Fax: (432) 577-3630

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<body>
<font face=3D"arial" size=3D2>(Sent to Bruce Gellerman of NPR)<br><br>
Dear Bruce,<br><br>
I read your transcript on the NPR radio show&nbsp; (
<a href=3D"http://www.loe.org/shows/segments.htm?programID=3D05-P13-00039&am=
p;segmentID=3D2">
http://www.loe.org/shows/segments.htm?programID=3D05-P13-00039&amp;segmentID=
=3D2</a>
&nbsp; ) and have the following comments I wish to share with you:
(Quotes from your transcript precede my comments in italics.)<br><br>
</font>&quot;What has been called &quot;the most enormous conflict in
basic science of the 20th century&quot; began on March 23,
1989.&quot;<br>
<i>I've never heard it called &quot;conflict&quot; before. Typically it
has been called much worse. But I don't mind the improvement at all.
<br><br>
</i>&quot;Critics call them a cult, but these true believers are
sustained by laboratory results they say prove cold fusion can produce
unlimited, safe, non-polluting energy.&quot;<br>
<i>&quot;True believers?&quot; Ooops. For a scientist, that's akin to
dispensing a racial slur to an ethnic person. May I suggest an alternate
term: &quot;committed researchers?&quot;<br><br>
</i>&quot;In 1993, Richard Garwin inspected Michael McKubre's lab on
behalf of the Department of Defense.&quot; <br>
<i>Garwin has a duty to the public. He should not be let off the hook so
easily. I'm glad to see that you are helping bring this to light.
<br><br>
</i>&quot;Szpak and Boss have published the results of their experiment
in a prestigious, peer-reviewed physics journal. And Japanese scientists
have reported similar findings.&quot; <br>
<i>THANK YOU FOR MENTIONING THIS! This is so important for the public to
know about the published papers.<br><br>
</i>&quot;[Park] calls cold fusion an illusion =96 nothing more than
wishful interpretation of data by researchers.&quot;<br>
<i>This appears to be a quote from his book from several years ago. Park
is starting to soften his dialogue about cold fusion in the last few
years. <br><br>
Overall comments: Excellent job Bruce!&nbsp; You covered the topic
fairly, accurately and honestly. Naturally it won't appease the other two
hundred scientists whose work was not featured, but that's besides the
point. I think your report provides value to the public. I would
encourage the cold fusion community to welcome you back for your next
program.<br><br>
</i>cc: Cold fusion researchers worldwide<br><br>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
Steven B. Krivit<br>
Editor, New Energy Times<br>
Executive Director, New Energy Institute Inc.<br>
<font size=3D4><b><i><a href=3D"http://www.newenergytimes.com/">NEW</a>
<a href=3D"http://www.newenergytimes.com/"> ENERGY
TIMES</a></i></b></font><font size=3D5> <br>
</font><b><i>Your best source for cold fusion news and information.
<br><br>
</i></b>11664 National Blvd. Suite 142<br>
Los Angeles, California, USA 90064<br>
<a href=3D"http://www.newenergytimes.com/">www.newenergytimes.com</a><br>
Cell phone: (310) 721-5919<br>
Office Phone: (310) 470-8189<br>
Fax: (432) 577-3630<br>
</body>
</html>

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