From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 1 00:43:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j917h7Tr027681; Sat, 1 Oct 2005 00:43:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j917h5hP027655; Sat, 1 Oct 2005 00:43:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2005 00:43:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20051001003936.02b3d708 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Sat, 01 Oct 2005 00:40:28 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: he's not getting away that easy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_1593221234==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63518 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_1593221234==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed http://newenergytimes.com/Reports/GarwinLewisReport/garwin.htm In mid-2004, reporter Sharon Weinberger of the Washington Post Magazine picked up the trail of this story and found Garwins' document posted here. At the time, Sharon was starting her article, I was finishing my book. She exchanged e-mails; and I, both e-mails and a phone call with Richard Garwin to obtain his comment on this report. To both of us, he stated that his report does not support the finding of excess heat. Go Figure. -sk In Sep. 2005, reporter Bruce Gellerman with NPR's Living on Earth spoke with Garwin who stated, "They've been very careful [at SRI], but there are mistakes." This is to be compared with Garwin's 1993 conclusion that there were no specific errors and that the few things not understood by the experimenters were probably irrelevant.. S --=====================_1593221234==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" http://newenergytimes.com/Reports/GarwinLewisReport/garwin.htm


In mid-2004, reporter Sharon Weinberger of the Washington Post Magazine picked up the trail of this story and found Garwins' document posted here. At the time, Sharon was starting her article, I was finishing my book. She exchanged e-mails; and I, both e-mails and a phone call with Richard Garwin to obtain his comment on this report.  To both of us, he stated that his report does not support the finding of excess heat. Go Figure. -sk

In Sep. 2005, reporter Bruce Gellerman with NPR's Living on Earth spoke with Garwin who stated, "They've been very careful [at SRI], but there are mistakes." This is to be compared with Garwin's 1993 conclusion that there were no specific errors and that the few things not understood by the experimenters were probably irrelevant..


S

 --=====================_1593221234==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 1 04:31:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j91BV4e3019336; Sat, 1 Oct 2005 04:31:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j91BV2da019320; Sat, 1 Oct 2005 04:31:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2005 04:31:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Podkletnov, Hutchison and Shoulders (PH&S) X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 8324edccdbae1c0007349b58b3c30403 Reply-To: michael.foster excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20051001113038.9B2453E67 xprdmailfe6.nwk.excite.com> Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2005 07:30:38 -0400 (EDT) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63519 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frank wrote: > Now firstly - let's get the idea of gravity out of the way. > This has no more to do with gravity than Naudin's lifters. > It is clearly a electromagnetic effect of the same type as > Hutchison's and Shoulders's. After all, it is the result of > an electromagnetic pulse moderated by a superconducting coil. > This strongly suggests that it is generating a closed ring > vortex in the Beta-atmosphere. An electromagnetic smoke ring? I like it! BTW Frank, would you mind posting a capsule explanation of your Beta-atmosphere idea for those of us with television-induced short attention span? > The reference to the force beam passing through > objects is a bit confusing since if it passes through > an object it can't knock it over, and vice versa. > Still at this stage of a epoch making discovery it is > reasonable to expect this kind of contradiction. If the object is non-polar and has a low dielectric constant, an electromagnetic "force beam" might pass through it with minimal attenuation. On the other hand, if it really is a type of gravity effect, rigidly held objects would not be moved while loose objects would be. In other words, if I place an object on a table, it doesn't suddenly become weightless because the table is in the way of the gravity. The force of gravity is not attenuated by an interposed object. M. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 1 04:49:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j91BnTVC026000; Sat, 1 Oct 2005 04:49:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j91BnRgk025981; Sat, 1 Oct 2005 04:49:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2005 04:49:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001601c5c67e$22f3d030$0600a8c0 nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20051001003936.02b3d708 mail.newenergytimes.com> Subject: Re: he's not getting away that easy Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2005 12:49:05 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0013_01C5C686.81EBAAB0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <8i9zD.A.2VG.HfnPDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63520 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C5C686.81EBAAB0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Steve - I emailed your cold fusion report PDF file to the executive = director of Friends of the Earth UK, along with the following message. Hello XXX, I am Nick Palmer - I used to be the coordinator of = Friends of the Earth Jersey local area group. About 10 years ago, when = Charles Secrett was Director, I tried to introduce a motion to FOE = Conference about the increasing evidence that "Cold Fusion" was actually = real and had not been disproved in 1989. I believed then, and do now, = that the threat of climate change is such, and the stupidity of vested = interests and inertia of people is so great, that we are going to need = additional sources of energy before alternative energy can get big = enough to make a difference to greenhouse gas levels - particularly in = the developing countries that Kyoto allows to make less effort. There = are already calls for a new generation of nuclear power stations and we = don't want that, except as a last ditch emergency climate repair = mechanism. If you could spare the time, could you please give the attached PDF = file a look. It updates the story. There have been hundreds of = successful experiments performed since and thousands of published = scientific papers which, because of the negative image associated with = the subject, have "establishment science's" blind eyes turned towards = them. Most of these papers can be seen on the website = http://www.lenr-canr.org/ which is the de facto archive for everything = to do with this subject. The advantage of "Cold Fusion" over standard = hot fusion and fission is the almost total absence of dangerous = radioactivity. I can also recommend the "e-book" by the archivist of = this website as a quick speculative guide to the enormous environmental = and social benefits that clean, cheap, low tech energy could give the = world (or am I teaching granny to suck eggs here !?! ) = http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJcoldfusiona.pdf (6 MB) Sorry for the intrusion if you have seen this stuff before. Nick Palmer ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C5C686.81EBAAB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Steve - I emailed your cold fusion = report PDF file=20 to the executive director of Friends of the Earth UK, along with the = following=20 message.
 
 
Hello XXX,
 
          &nbs= p;    =20 I am Nick Palmer - I used to be the coordinator of Friends of the Earth = Jersey=20 local area group. About 10 years ago, when Charles Secrett was Director, = I tried=20 to introduce a motion to FOE Conference about the increasing evidence = that "Cold=20 Fusion" was actually real and had not been disproved in 1989. I believed = then,=20 and do now, that the threat of climate change is such, and the stupidity = of=20 vested interests and inertia of people is so great, that we are = going to=20 need additional sources of energy before alternative energy can get big = enough=20 to make a difference to greenhouse gas levels - particularly in the = developing=20 countries that Kyoto allows to make less effort. There are already calls = for a=20 new generation of nuclear power stations and we don't want that, except = as a=20 last ditch emergency climate repair mechanism.
 
    If you could spare = the time,=20 could you please give the attached PDF file a look. It updates the = story. There=20 have been hundreds of successful experiments performed since and = thousands of=20 published scientific papers which, because of the negative image = associated with=20 the subject,  have "establishment science's" blind eyes turned = towards=20 them. Most of these papers can be seen on the website http://www.lenr-canr.org/ &nb= sp;which=20 is  the de facto archive for everything to do with this=20 subject. The advantage of "Cold Fusion" over standard hot fusion = and=20 fission is the almost total absence of dangerous radioactivity. I can = also=20 recommend the "e-book" by the archivist of this website as=20 a quick speculative guide to the enormous environmental and = social=20 benefits that clean, cheap, low tech energy could give the world (or am = I=20 teaching granny to suck eggs here !?! ) http://len= r-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJcoldfusiona.pdf =20 (6 MB)
 
    Sorry for the = intrusion if you=20 have seen this stuff before.
 
Nick = Palmer
------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C5C686.81EBAAB0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 1 06:06:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j91D6GSG029150; Sat, 1 Oct 2005 06:06:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j91D6Fkh029129; Sat, 1 Oct 2005 06:06:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2005 06:06:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001201c5c688$d7718480$0100007f xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Cold Fusion Radio Show on NPR Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2005 08:05:09 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000E_01C5C65E.D7D45710"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.9 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,HTML_50_60,HTML_MESSAGE,J_CHICKENPOX_93, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63521 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C5C65E.D7D45710 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000F_01C5C65E.D7D45710" ------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C5C65E.D7D45710 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankIt is important to pursue scientific research in new forms of = energy for the benefit of mankind. It is most important the truth of the results of that research be = submitted to a candid world.=20 The internet, with all it's flaws, has performed well to serve as a = source of information on those results. Suppression, distortion and sometimes outright fakery , either = deliberate or from ignorance,may skew that information. We are witnessing a sea change in the method of preparing and = documentation of scientific papers resulting from the scrutiny afforded = by the internet. Not only are the papers and the reporting now being viewed by that " = candid world", that reporting becomes a matter of record. We have laws for banking practice called " truth in lending". Steven Krivit has recognized and practiced the importance of " truth in = reporting". Richard ------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C5C65E.D7D45710 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
It is important to pursue scientific research in new forms of = energy for=20 the benefit of mankind.
 
It is most important the truth of the results of that research be = submitted=20 to a  candid world.
 
The internet, with all it's flaws, has performed well to serve as = a =20 source of information on those results.
 
Suppression, distortion and sometimes outright fakery , either = deliberate=20 or from ignorance,may skew that information.
 
We are witnessing a sea change in the method of preparing = and  =20 documentation of scientific papers resulting from the scrutiny afforded = by the=20 internet.
 
 Not only are the papers and the reporting now being viewed by = that "=20 candid world", that reporting becomes a matter of record.
 
We have laws for banking practice called " truth in lending".
 
Steven Krivit has recognized and practiced the importance of " = truth in=20 reporting".
 
Richard
 
 

 

------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C5C65E.D7D45710-- ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C5C65E.D7D45710 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000d01c5c688$c09e2a10$0100007f xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C5C65E.D7D45710-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 1 10:19:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j91HItTQ030981; Sat, 1 Oct 2005 10:19:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j91HInJK030903; Sat, 1 Oct 2005 10:18:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2005 10:18:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=ix.netcom.com; b=PxmQHnXJ1mPP+eSPk0g1ugjx2mwSM0LWgZdLw3rYVQbD8iILwR/z2/B2vw4au37M; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220051061171935270 ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.1.47.0 (Windows) From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: "vortex-l" Subject: FW: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday September 30, 2005 Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2005 10:19:35 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d83af08ba56ffa4f57c0f55f40412e292a85e0aeacdf564a64350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 216.175.93.117 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63522 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > [Original Message] From: What's New To: Date: 10/1/2005 9:10:30 AM Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday September 30, 2005 WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 30 Sep 05 Washington, DC 1. NASA: SO THE DAMNED SHUTTLE WAS A MISTAKE, WHAT DO WE DO NOW? This week, NASA Administrator Michael Griffin told USA Today that both the space shuttle and the International Space Station were mistakes. His candor is admirable, but after all, these were not Bush initiatives, and Griffin's opinion of them was known before he was tapped for the top job. What is disturbing is that Griffin pledged to complete the ISS before the shuttle is retired in 2010. There are no plans to send a shuttle to service the world's greatest telescope, but the schedule calls for 18 shuttle flights to finish the ISS, plus 10 ISS supply missions that's an average of 5.6 shuttle flights per year. Anyone who would bet on getting 28 flights out of these rickety-old jalopies has been living on some other planet. Even with a crew of just five, that's 140 rolls of the dice. That's a big gamble to support a space station that is now acknowledged to be of little value. 2. FIRST AMENDMENT: CAMPAIGN TO DEFEND THE CONSTITUTION LAUNCHED. Yesterday, a group of the nation's leading scientists, clergy and legal scholars announced the formation of the Campaign to Defend the Constitution, an online grassroots movement to combat the threat posed by the religious right to American democracy, public education and scientific leadership http://www.defconamerica.org. The Campaign's first "DefCon Alert" is a map showing the nation's top ten "islands of ignorance," where science education is under attack - including, of course, the Dover school district. 3. DOVER: DISCOVERY INSTITUTE WATCHES GLUMLY FROM THE SIDELINES. The first week of Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District got underway on Monday. Eight families are suing the school board over a requirement that a statement on Intelligent Design be read to students before classes on evolution. The first witness for the plaintiffs was Ken Miller, a Brown U. biologist who wrote Finding Darwin's God, which demolishes intelligent design. An attorney for the School Board, probing for softness in support of Darwin, asked, "Would you agree that Darwin's theory is not the absolute truth?" "We don't regard any scientific theory as the absolute truth," Miller replied. That just about said it all. 4. fiction n. Imaginative creation that does not represent truth. For weeks the news was dominated by Katrina and Rita, which drew their energy from the record warm waters of the Gulf. The news this week included satellite images of an open ocean. What made it news was that it was the Arctic Ocean, where the ice cap is rapidly shrinking. What do you do if you're Chair of the Senate Environment and Public Works Committee and you've assured people over and over that global warming is "the greatest hoax ever perpetrated on the American people"? If you're Sen. James Inhofe (R-OK), you hold a full committee hearing and invite a science fiction writer to testify. Michael Crichton, author of "State of Fear," an environmental thriller in which environmentalists cook up evidence to keep federal bucks coming, was Inholfe's expert. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.bobpark.org What's New is moving to a different listserver and our subscription process has changed. To change your subscription status please visit this link: http://listserv.umd.edu/cgi-bin/wa? SUBED1=bobparks-whatsnew&A=1 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 1 12:18:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j91JI46e032087; Sat, 1 Oct 2005 12:18:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j91JI2CJ032071; Sat, 1 Oct 2005 12:18:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2005 12:18:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20051001191733961.EAB1E1C00089 mwinf3203.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20051001191735.0096029c pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 01 Oct 2005 20:17:35 +0100 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: RE: Podkletnov, Hutchison and Shoulders (PH&S) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63523 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 07:30 am 01/10/2005 -0400, Michael wrote: > Frank wrote: > >> Now firstly - let's get the idea of gravity out of the way. >> This has no more to do with gravity than Naudin's lifters. >> It is clearly a electromagnetic effect of the same type as >> Hutchison's and Shoulders's. After all, it is the result of >> an electromagnetic pulse moderated by a superconducting coil. >> This strongly suggests that it is generating a closed ring >> vortex in the Beta-atmosphere. > An electromagnetic smoke ring? I like it! > > BTW Frank, would you mind posting a capsule explanation of > your Beta-atmosphere idea for those of us with television-induced > short attention span? ============================================================== The Beta-atmosphere is that fraction of the aether which holds macro materials together by external pressure. Bonds, electromagnetic interactions in other words, are seen as negations, Bernoulli pressure drops resulting from real flows of real substance between sources and sinks. The concept arose initially from experimental work on the strengths, etc., of soils and cementitious material which showed that their properties gave precise power laws, later recognised to be arising from the self-similar nature of their hierarchical structures. Initially, the experimental results were modelled with a hierarchical quasi-solid, quasi-fluid system, the conceptual equivalent of the Leibniz one and zero counting system. Every material can be divided into a hierarchy of phase-pairs in mutual compression and tension. In other words material are seen as prestressed at every scale of scrutiny. Later, on the basis of further experimental results, it was realised that in reality the "tensions" were simply reductions in the external compressions. The implications of this in relation to the reality of the EM fraction of the aether were fairly obvious. As young Scientific Officers we didn't look forward to presenting our conclusions at an international conference on materials - but we did - and I am happy to say - we survived 8-). But that's probably because most engineers' take the attitude "We are only here for the beer." and as not as fundamentalist as their physics cousins. ;-) ============================================================== That's about as encapsulated as I can make it. For the full history you need to go to the Beta-atmosphere Yahoo Group site and read the stuff in the FILE and PHOTO sections. Cheers, Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 1 23:26:01 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j926Pbuj004632; Sat, 1 Oct 2005 23:25:53 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j926OtoI004003; Sat, 1 Oct 2005 23:24:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2005 23:24:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20051001225941.02940bb0 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Sat, 01 Oct 2005 23:18:14 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: cold fusion wake-up calls In-Reply-To: <001601c5c67e$22f3d030$0600a8c0 nixlaptop> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20051001003936.02b3d708 mail.newenergytimes.com> <001601c5c67e$22f3d030$0600a8c0 nixlaptop> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_1674681203==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63524 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_1674681203==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hi Nick, Thanks for the help. It is possible that working prototypes may start to appear in the near future. For this reason alone, it would be beneficial to everybody on the planet if the environmental activists start learning some basics about this field so that when they start to hear about it in the press, they are well-informed and able to respond thoughtfully. All the best, Steve At 04:49 AM 10/1/2005, you wrote: >Steve - I emailed your cold fusion report PDF file to the executive >director of Friends of the Earth UK, along with the following message. > > >Hello XXX, > > I am Nick Palmer - I used to be the coordinator of > Friends of the Earth Jersey local area group. About 10 years ago, when > Charles Secrett was Director, I tried to introduce a motion to FOE > Conference about the increasing evidence that "Cold Fusion" was actually > real and had not been disproved in 1989. I believed then, and do now, > that the threat of climate change is such, and the stupidity of vested > interests and inertia of people is so great, that we are going to need > additional sources of energy before alternative energy can get big enough > to make a difference to greenhouse gas levels - particularly in the > developing countries that Kyoto allows to make less effort. There are > already calls for a new generation of nuclear power stations and we don't > want that, except as a last ditch emergency climate repair mechanism. > > If you could spare the time, could you please give the attached PDF > file a look. It updates the story. There have been hundreds of successful > experiments performed since and thousands of published scientific papers > which, because of the negative image associated with the subject, have > "establishment science's" blind eyes turned towards them. Most of these > papers can be seen on the website > http://www.lenr-canr.org/ which is the de > facto archive for everything to do with this subject. The advantage of > "Cold Fusion" over standard hot fusion and fission is the almost total > absence of dangerous radioactivity. I can also recommend the "e-book" by > the archivist of this website as a quick speculative guide to the > enormous environmental and social benefits that clean, cheap, low tech > energy could give the world (or am I teaching granny to suck eggs here > !?! ) > http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJcoldfusiona.pdf > (6 MB) > > Sorry for the intrusion if you have seen this stuff before. > >Nick Palmer --=====================_1674681203==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Nick,

Thanks for the help. It is possible that working prototypes may start to appear in the near future. For this reason alone, it would be beneficial to everybody on the planet if the environmental activists start learning some basics about this field so that when they start to hear about it in the press, they are well-informed and able to respond thoughtfully.

All the best,

Steve


At 04:49 AM 10/1/2005, you wrote:
Steve - I emailed your cold fusion report PDF file to the executive director of Friends of the Earth UK, along with the following message.
 
 
Hello XXX,
 
            &nbs= p;   I am Nick Palmer - I used to be the coordinator of Friends of the Earth Jersey local area group. About 10 years ago, when Charles Secrett was Director, I tried to introduce a motion to FOE Conference about the increasing evidence that "Cold Fusion" was actually real and had not been disproved in 1989. I believed then, and do now, that the threat of climate change is such, and the stupidity of vested interests and inertia of people is so great, that we are going to need additional sources of energy before alternative energy can get big enough to make a difference to greenhouse gas levels - particularly in the developing countries that Kyoto allows to make less effort. There are already calls for a new generation of nuclear power stations and we don't want that, except as a last ditch emergency climate repair mechanism.
 
    If you could spare the time= , could you please give the attached PDF file a look. It updates the story. There have been hundreds of successful experiments performed since and thousands of published scientific papers which, because of the negative image associated with the subject,  have "establishment science's" blind eyes turned towards them. Most of these papers can be seen on the website http://www.lenr-canr.org/  which is  the de facto archive for everything to do with this subject. The advantage of "Cold Fusion" over standard hot fusion and fission is the almost total absence of dangerous radioactivity. I can also recommend the "e-book" by the archivist of this website as a quick speculative guide to the enormous environmental and social benefits that clean, cheap, low tech energy could give the world (or am I teaching granny to suck eggs here !?! ) http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJcoldfusiona.pdf  (6 MB)
 
    Sorry for the intrusion if you have seen this stuff before.
 
Nick Palmer
--=====================_1674681203==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 2 00:24:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j927NwY2028202; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 00:24:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j927NuiH028178; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 00:23:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 00:23:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 02:23:30 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Islands of Ignorance Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="============_-1083884669==_ma============" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63525 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --============_-1083884669==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Parksie opined; 2. FIRST AMENDMENT: CAMPAIGN TO DEFEND THE CONSTITUTION LAUNCHED. Yesterday, a group of the nation's leading scientists, clergy and legal scholars announced the formation of the Campaign to Defend the Constitution, an online grassroots movement to combat the threat posed by the religious right to American democracy, public education and scientific leadership http://www.defconamerica.org. The Campaign's first "DefCon Alert" is a map showing the nation's top ten "islands of ignorance," where science education is under attack - including, of course, the Dover school district. Ignorance, eh? How about information science? IMHO, the islands of ignorance map should have the U of Maryland in bright red. Defcon sounds a lot like bureaucratic newspeak in 1984. --============_-1083884669==_ma============ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Islands of Ignorance
Parksie opined;

 2. FIRST AMENDMENT: CAMPAIGN TO DEFEND THE CONSTITUTION LAUNCHED.
 Yesterday, a group of the nation's leading scientists, clergy and
 legal scholars announced the formation of the Campaign to Defend
 the Constitution, an online grassroots movement to combat the
 threat posed by the religious right to American democracy, public
 education and scientific leadership http://www.defconamerica.org.
 The Campaign's first "DefCon Alert" is a map showing the nation's
 top ten "islands of ignorance," where science education is under
 attack - including, of course, the Dover school district.

Ignorance, eh? How about information science? IMHO, the islands of ignorance map should have the U of Maryland in bright red. Defcon sounds a lot like bureaucratic newspeak in 1984.
--============_-1083884669==_ma============-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 2 02:57:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j929vcm6022940; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 02:57:53 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j929vVoB022903; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 02:57:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 02:57:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=pNoK4eiiIztAyBMfocdBHdxQaz2ryulShYB6Zqc8VrKyfnGCyP09UgtnKRWOxkGg; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <412-2200510028562870 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: CNG & Bio Gas Storage Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 03:56:28 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940215a4810967a057066c36e18f89cd2b8350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.201 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63526 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII 12 page pdf on what the Europeans are doing with Compressed Natural Gas (CNG) - Methane http://www.sorpa.is/bindata/documents/NEWS.April.2004_00109.pdf A Hydraulic Gas Compressor Supplier: http://www.gasfill.com/products.htm The gasfill home and work compressor can re-fuel the average small car or van in 15 hours at a rate of 0.5m3 of compressed natural gas per hour. That’s enough to give you a range of 70 miles on a full fill. The price of this unit in the UK is ?1500+VAT and special offers are available for the first customers to contact us and buy. In late 2005 we intend to launch a new compressor that will fill 4x as fast at a rate of 2.0m3 of compressed natural gas per hour. Our Products The gasfill 500 and gasfill 2000 allow you to refuel your car with CNG at home anytime when your vehicle is stationary. The unit is connected to your natural gas supply and compresses the natural gas into the on vehicle storage cylinder at 200bar. The unit automatically cuts off when the cylinder is full. Installation can be carried out by any qualified natural gas installer and the unit takes its supply of electricity from a normal domestic socket. gasfill 500 Capacity:0.5m3/h Charging pressure:200bar Fill rate:Fills 30 litre storage cylinder in 14 hours Fuel equivalent (petrol):8.4 litres (1.8 galls) Available Now! gasfill 2000 Capacity:2.0m3/h Charging pressure:200bar Fill rate:Fills 90 litre storage cylinder in 11 hours Fuel equivalent (petrol):25 litres (5.2 galls) ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

12 page pdf on what the Europeans are doing with
Compressed Natural Gas (CNG) - Methane
 
 
 
A Hydraulic Gas Compressor Supplier:
 
 

The gasfill home and work compressor can re-fuel the average small car or van in 15 hours at a rate of 0.5m3 of compressed natural gas per hour. That’s enough to give you a range of 70 miles on a full fill. The price of this unit in the UK is ?1500+VAT and special offers are available for the first customers to contact us and buy.

In late 2005 we intend to launch a new compressor that will fill 4x as fast at a rate of 2.0m3 of compressed natural gas per hour.

Our Products
The gasfill 500 and gasfill 2000 allow you to refuel your car with CNG at home anytime when your vehicle is stationary. The unit is connected to your natural gas supply and compresses the natural gas into the on vehicle storage cylinder at 200bar. The unit automatically cuts off when the cylinder is full.

Installation can be carried out by any qualified natural gas installer and the unit takes its supply of electricity from a normal domestic socket.



                 gasfill 500

Capacity: 0.5m3/h
Charging pressure: 200bar
Fill rate: Fills 30 litre storage cylinder in 14 hours
Fuel equivalent (petrol): 8.4 litres (1.8 galls)
Available Now!


                 gasfill 2000

Capacity: 2.0m3/h
Charging pressure: 200bar
Fill rate: Fills 90 litre storage cylinder in 11 hours
Fuel equivalent (petrol): 25 litres (5.2 galls)
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: image/gif; name="spacer.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Description: spacer.gif Content-Id: <410-220051002856257105 13071999> R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAP///wAAACH5BAEUAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAICRAEAOw== ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: image/gif; name="spacer.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Description: spacer.gif Content-Id: <184671-220051002856257106 13071999> R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAP///wAAACH5BAEUAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAICRAEAOw== ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 2 04:01:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j92B0lm1014662; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 04:01:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j92B0ef5014615; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 04:00:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 04:00:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=gcidNge4HgwMHbZRuadReP26vj3w4z3OpcxUFmgM1MfGQSlx8WcdKfoBJ/p5VTfp; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22005100295924530 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Table: Properties of Fuels Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 04:59:24 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940d17150112758079c037f89f4ffd5ca25350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.119 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63527 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Three Page pdf. http://www.eere.energy.gov/afdc/pdfs/fueltable.pdf Alternative Fuels Data Center: http://www.eere.energy.gov/afdc/ "The Alternative Fuels Data Center is a vast collection of information on alternative fuels and the vehicles that use them. Alternative fuels described here are those defined by the Energy Policy Act of 1992, including biodiesel, electricity, ethanol, hydrogen, natural gas, and propane. This site has more than 3,000 documents in its database, an interactive fuel station mapping system, current listings of available alternative fuel vehicles, and lots of alternative fuels information and related links." ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Three Page pdf.
 
 
Alternative Fuels Data Center:
 

"The Alternative Fuels Data Center is a vast collection of information on alternative fuels and the vehicles that use them. Alternative fuels described here are those defined by the Energy Policy Act of 1992, including biodiesel, electricity, ethanol, hydrogen, natural gas, and propane. This site has more than 3,000 documents in its database, an interactive fuel station mapping system, current listings of available alternative fuel vehicles, and lots of alternative fuels information and related links."

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 2 05:08:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j92C7RLm011550; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 05:07:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j92C7QMw011536; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 05:07:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 05:07:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=CoE1Vqa2VGbZBC5F12GL5G7Ibzr67KQzaN/dyPWRK5CR7ke0+itV79+0mlkcoZdm; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200510021162720 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Dry Reforming of Methane With CO2 Etc. Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 06:06:02 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94013ac4e3025ea6700b36c18a3113775a9350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.163 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63528 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII The Reforming of Methane with Carbon Dioxide promises to be more energy efficient than Steam Reforming if the conversion yield improves. On-board CO2 reforming of CNG (CO2 + CH4 ---> 2 CO + 2 H2) combined with a shift reaction (2 CO + 2 H2O ---> 2 CO2 + 2 H2) using the water from the fuel cell would get you about 20 pounds of hydrogen for each McF (42.4 lbs) of CNG stored. http://www.aiche.org/conferences/techprogram/paperdetail.asp?PaperID=1026&DSN=annual01 "For the dry reforming of methane with carbon dioxide, carbide catalysts seem to be stable without any significant formation of coke. A preliminary investigation of the performance of the cobalt tungsten carbide catalyst [Co6W6C] is presented. An unsupported Co6W6C catalyst with a particle size of less than 38 microns was tested for activity at various reaction temperatures and feed ratios in a stainless steel differential reactor. The catalyst was found to be very stable for over 72 hours and gave stable CH4 and CO2 conversions of 17% and 23% respectively, at 850oC with a feed ratio of CH4/CO2 = 1. The catalyst was tested for activity at different partial pressures of CH4 and CO2 at 775 and 750oC which show the effects on the reaction rates of methane reforming (rMR), reverse water gas shift (rRW), and carbon deposition (rCD) reactions." 85 page pdf on various synthesis gas technologies, lots of pictures: http://www.cffs.uky.edu/C1/2000%20meeting/2000%20CFFS%20Annual%20Report.pdf Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
The Reforming of Methane with Carbon Dioxide promises to be more
energy efficient than Steam Reforming if the conversion yield improves.
 
On-board CO2 reforming of CNG (CO2 + CH4 ---> 2 CO + 2 H2) combined with a shift reaction  (2 CO + 2 H2O ---> 2 CO2 + 2 H2) using the water from the fuel cell would get you
about 20 pounds of hydrogen for each McF (42.4 lbs) of CNG stored.
 
 
"For the dry reforming of methane with carbon dioxide, carbide catalysts seem to be stable without any significant formation of coke. A preliminary investigation of the performance of the cobalt tungsten carbide catalyst [Co6W6C] is presented. An unsupported Co6W6C catalyst with a particle size of less than 38 microns was tested for activity at various reaction temperatures and feed ratios in a stainless steel differential reactor. The catalyst was found to be very stable for over 72 hours and gave stable CH4 and CO2 conversions of 17% and 23% respectively, at 850oC with a feed ratio of CH4/CO2 = 1. The catalyst was tested for activity at different partial pressures of CH4 and CO2 at 775 and 750oC which show the effects on the reaction rates of methane reforming (rMR), reverse water gas shift (rRW), and carbon deposition (rCD) reactions."
 
85 page pdf on various synthesis gas technologies, lots of pictures:
 
 
Frederick

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 2 08:11:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j92FAZrv024800; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 08:10:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j92FAXOf024751; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 08:10:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 08:10:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003301c5c763$5e176b50$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: Will this lead to ultra-cheap hydrogen? Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 08:10:03 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0030_01C5C728.B1593540" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63529 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0030_01C5C728.B1593540 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Methinks we are closer to the goal than realized (although politics may = keep the price higher than necessary) http://www.ncsu.edu/news/press_releases/05_09/188.htm Pyrolysis (thermal decomposition) of water normally requires lots of = high temperature thermal energy, plus a means to avoid immediate = recombination - but what about catalytic pyrolysis? A new technique using carbon nanotube technology is said to require=20 half the energy of normal pyrolysis - and at only 1000 C, plus the = carbon is not consumed AND recombination can be more easily engineered = into the system. This lower-temperature requirement would seem to be doable, even with = Michael Foster's cheap Fresnel Lens, no? There is also something in the wind (not the Santa Ana's we should = hope), related to thermal water decomposition over in Westwood, Michael, = but it is still in the conceptual stage apparently. http://www.research.ucla.edu/tech/ucla05-332.htm The BEST use, however, for the new catalytic decomposition may be found = in producing cheap hydrogen from ultra safe nuclear - where you also can = engineer in the benefits of gamma decomposition of water.=20 The best newer reactor concept for this is the STAR-H2 - from Argonne - = which can be rail-mounted and is super-safe, but not yet optimized by = nominal subcriticality (more on that later). The Secure Transportable Autonomous Reactor for Hydrogen production, "STAR-H2, is a Pb-cooled, fast neutron spectrum, 400 MWth modular-sized = reactor. It is a lower power density natural circulation cooled reactor = with passive load following and passive safety response characteristics. = The 400 MWth sizing retains natural circulation capability in a rail = shippable reactor vessel size as well as allowing for passive decay heat = removal. The reactor operates on a 15 year whole core cassette = refueling interval using uranium/transuranic nitride fuel." The spent = fuel can even be used (in theory) on site for added gamma-assisted = decomposition of water. Unfortunately there are many additions to this concept which = coulda/shoulda been added. Perhaps it is a very good start however and = can be adapted for use with the catalytic thermal water splitters - = which is VERY exciting.=20 If we had this design with the catalytic crackers in place now, H2 could = be produced for about the gasoline equivalent of 75 cents a gallon plus = taxes and markup - but don't think that our government will allow the = lower pricing possibility. And a few of these rail-mounted 400 MWth = units - with catalytic decomposition - could replace a small refinery - = with significant net ecological benefit.=20 Jones ------=_NextPart_000_0030_01C5C728.B1593540 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Methinks we are closer to the goal than = realized=20 (although politics may keep the price higher than necessary)

http://www.ncsu.edu/news/press_releases/05_09/188.htm=

Pyrolysis (thermal decomposition) of water = normally requires=20 lots of high temperature thermal energy, plus a means to avoid immediate = recombination - but what about catalytic pyrolysis?

A new = technique using=20 carbon nanotube technology is said to require
half the energy of = normal=20 pyrolysis - and at only 1000 C, plus the carbon is not consumed AND=20 recombination can be more easily engineered into the system.

This = lower-temperature requirement would seem to be doable, even with=20 Michael  Foster's cheap Fresnel Lens, no?

There is also something in the wind = (not the Santa=20 Ana's we should  hope), related to thermal water decomposition over = in=20 Westwood, Michael, but it is still in the conceptual stage=20 apparently.
http://www.research.ucla.edu/tech/ucla05-332.htm
 
The BEST use, however, for the new = catalytic=20 decomposition may be found in producing cheap hydrogen from ultra = safe=20 nuclear - where you also can engineer in the benefits of gamma = decomposition of=20 water.
 
The best newer reactor concept for this = is the=20 STAR-H2 - from Argonne - which can be rail-mounted and is super-safe, = but not=20 yet optimized by nominal subcriticality (more on that = later).
 
The Secure Transportable Autonomous = Reactor for=20 Hydrogen production,
"STAR-H2, is a Pb-cooled, fast neutron spectrum, = 400=20 MWth  modular-sized reactor. It is a lower power density = natural =20 circulation cooled reactor with passive load following and = passive safety=20 response characteristics. The 400 MWth sizing retains  natural = circulation=20 capability in a rail shippable reactor vessel size as well as allowing = for=20 passive decay heat removal. The  reactor operates on a 15 year = whole core=20 cassette refueling  interval using uranium/transuranic nitride = fuel." The=20 spent fuel can even be used (in theory) on site for added gamma-assisted = decomposition of water.

Unfortunately there are many additions to = this=20 concept which  coulda/shoulda been added. Perhaps it is a very good = start=20 however and  can be adapted for use with the catalytic thermal=20 water splitters - which is VERY exciting.
 
If we had this design with the = catalytic crackers=20 in place now, H2 could be produced for about the gasoline equivalent of = 75 cents=20 a gallon plus taxes and markup - but don't think that our government = will allow=20 the lower pricing possibility. And a few of these = rail-mounted 400=20 MWth units - with catalytic decomposition - could replace a small = refinery -=20 with significant net ecological benefit.=20

Jones
------=_NextPart_000_0030_01C5C728.B1593540-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 2 12:19:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j92JIoVn005358; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 12:19:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j92JIh3w005327; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 12:18:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 12:18:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20051002121525.02980c70 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Sun, 02 Oct 2005 12:16:29 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: Islands of Ignorance In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63530 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > >Ignorance, eh? How about information science? IMHO, the islands of >ignorance map should have the U of Maryland in bright red. Thomas, Why? Because of his antics with CF? Steve From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 2 12:23:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j92JMbmQ006732; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 12:22:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j92JMZGQ006716; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 12:22:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 12:22:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20051002192212145.239A45C0008B mwinf3113.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20051002192213.0097e9bc pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 02 Oct 2005 20:22:13 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: RE: Podkletnov, Hutchison and Shoulders (PH&S) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63531 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I've been boning up on Eugene Podkletnov's work and have come across two rather interesting audio files of Tim Ventura's interviews with EP. http://www.pureenergysystems.com/news/2004/08/04/6900035EugenePodkletnov/ It seems to me that EP's work has all the hallmarks of the Hutchison-Shoulders phenomena such as high voltage pulse, etc. In my view, the gravitational bit is an enormous red herring which only going to distract people from the recognition that this is a longitudinal nano- pulse at the magnetic scale of the Beta-atmosphere. One very interesting thing in the second of the interviews..... http://www.intalek.com/AV/Podkletnov-Breakthrough.wma was the statement (at 18min 50sec)..... =================================================== ".....and also we tried to measure the propagation speed of the impulse and we are very cautious about it because we don't want to frighten the scientific community and also we want to be absolutely sure that the results...[unintelligible]...several tons of times but it seems that based on what we have now - and already we are working for a year and a half - that the speed of the impulse is much higher than the speed of light - and with the parameters that we have now with at present in meters (?) and with voltage of three and five million volts the speed is about 63 to 64c which means that the propagation speed of the impulse is close to 64 times the speed of light....." =================================================== I like the "we don't want to frighten the scientific community" bit. He'll do more than frighten them. He'll send them positively ballistic. 8-) All the more so being a chemist - Shades of P&F. I find EP's result entirely plausible. It fits in with that article I read aeons ago about a magnetic pulse exceeding c. In fact it seems to me that with electricity and magnetism we are dealing with two quite separate phases of the Beta-atmosphere - but since I am now talking about two phases it might be more appropriate to use the more general term, the Beta-aether. There is the low pressure electric phase and the high pressure magnetic phase. EM radiation is the interaction between the two phases (cf. the air and the sea). In other words it is the propagation of energy along the phase boundaries. The transverse nature of EM radiation now makes much more sense. Let's hope EP soon forgets about anti-gravity and refines his experimental data on faster than light transmission. Cheers, Frank Grimer ========================================== et erit in novissimis diebus dicit Dominus effundam de Spiritu meo super omnem carnem et prophetabunt filii vestri et filiae vestrae et iuvenes vestri visiones videbunt et seniores vestri somnia somniabunt ========================================== From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 2 12:43:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j92Jgwcg012723; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 12:43:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j92JguuE012684; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 12:42:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 12:42:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [68.158.12.201] X-Originating-Email: [caliostro1795 hotmail.com] X-Sender: caliostro1795 hotmail.com In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20051002192213.0097e9bc pop.freeserve.net> From: "Alex Caliostro" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Podkletnov, Hutchison and Shoulders (PH&S) Date: Sun, 02 Oct 2005 13:42:27 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Oct 2005 19:42:27.0595 (UTC) FILETIME=[6B61DDB0:01C5C789] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63532 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >From: Grimer >I find EP's result entirely plausible. It fits in with >that article I read aeons ago about a magnetic pulse >exceeding c. Mr Grimer, you might wish to check the archives for the time period these results were presented -- as usual vorts overanalyzed all the data reg, _____ -alex _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 2 13:27:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j92KRMc6005067; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 13:27:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j92KRIcE005038; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 13:27:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 13:27:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20051002202655210.3364C2C00089 mwinf3101.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20051002202656.009fd6d4 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 02 Oct 2005 21:26:56 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: RE: Podkletnov, Hutchison and Shoulders (PH&S) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63533 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 01:42 pm 02/10/2005 -0600, Alex wrote: >> From: Grimer > >> I find EP's result entirely plausible. It fits in with >> that article I read aeons ago about a magnetic pulse >> exceeding c. > > Mr Grimer, you might wish to check the archives for the time period these > results were presented -- as usual vorts overanalyzed all the data Thanks for the tip, Alex. I have done as you suggest. It's a pity the original escribe archive is now defunct since that was easier to search than the present one. Still, I managed to find Tom's original first post entitled "Podkletnov's latest claims" and all subsequent replies. I don't know about "overanalyzed all the data" though. In any event, if one looks at EP's results as a manifestation of anti-grav they are very unpersuasive. However, if one ignores those claims and sees them in terms of confirmation of the Hutchison-Shoulders effect (and if an adze fan ;-) - Tesla's experiments too) then EP's results make a lot of sense. Frank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 2 14:22:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j92LLfVN026624; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 14:21:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j92LLdFk026602; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 14:21:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 14:21:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Will this lead to ultra-cheap hydrogen? X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 8324edccdbae1c0007349b58b3c30403 Reply-To: michael.foster excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20051002212113.79CE83E37 xprdmailfe6.nwk.excite.com> Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 17:21:13 -0400 (EDT) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63534 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones wrote: > Pyrolysis (thermal decomposition) of water normally requires lots of > high temperature thermal energy, plus a means to avoid immediate > recombination - but what about catalytic pyrolysis? There's no theoretical reason why catalytic pyrolysis couldn't work, and at much lower temperatures than some of the recent work has indicated. >A new technique using carbon nanotube technology is said to > require half the energy of normal pyrolysis - and at only 1000 C, plus > the carbon is not consumed AND recombination can be more > easily engineered into the system. I guess I am left wondering why the nanotubes won't be oxidized in this reaction. They are, after all, carbon. > This lower-temperature requirement would seem to be doable, > even with Michael Foster's cheap Fresnel Lens, no? > There is also something in the wind (not the Santa Ana's we should > hope), related to thermal water decomposition over in > Westwood,Michael, but it is still in the conceptual stage apparently. > http://www.research.ucla.edu/tech/ucla05-332.htm Even a relatively small, say one square meter, at about F1, is easily capable of heating its target to a temperature high enough for even non-catalytic pyrolysis of water. But, that is inefficient and you have to figure out how to keep the hydrogen and oxygen from recombining. I'm sure those guys at UCLA have an interesting process, but academics tend to make things too complicated. What really needs to take place is an all-out effort to find a really good catalyst. But that, unfortunately, just requires trying out a lot of different materials. You just can't just sit down at your computer and come up with one. Catalysis is, to this day, not well understood. Finding a good one take a lot of knowledge, experience, and plain intuition. Think of the Haber process, high temp, high pressure, and a uranium-osmium catalyst. Now that's not a combination that pops right into your head, is it? The original catalyst has been replaced now, but can you imagine how many combinations were tried? > The BEST use, however, for the new catalytic decomposition may be > found in producing cheap hydrogen from ultra safe nuclear - where you > also can engineer in the benefits of gamma decomposition of water. I have to agree with you about that, although I am sentimentally attached to the idea of everyone having a hydrogen generator in his back yard, the energy being provided by one or more of my el cheapo fresnels, natch. > If we had this design with the catalytic crackers in place now, H2 could be > produced for about the gasoline equivalent of 75 cents a gallon plus > taxes and markup - but don't think that our government will allow the lower > pricing possibility. And a few of these rail-mounted 400 MWth units - with > catalytic decomposition - could replace a small refinery - with significant > net ecological benefit. The rampant technophobia that has gripped the industrialized world, parading as environmentalism, would, I believe, be a larger obstruction than supposed government intervention on behalf of "big oil". Just my opinion, we're all after the same thing here. Oil companies and environmentalists be damned. Jones _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 2 16:17:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j92NGjnW003533; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 16:17:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j92NGZfr003444; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 16:16:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 16:16:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20051002231611402.623881C00084 mwinf3008.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20051002231613.00a0f4d0 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 00:16:13 +0100 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: RE: Will this lead to ultra-cheap hydrogen? Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63535 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 05:21 pm 02/10/2005 -0400, Michael wrote: > Jones wrote: > >> Pyrolysis (thermal decomposition) of water normally requires lots of >> high temperature thermal energy, plus a means to avoid immediate >> recombination - but what about catalytic pyrolysis? > > There's no theoretical reason why catalytic pyrolysis couldn't work, > and at much lower temperatures than some of the recent work > has indicated. > >> A new technique using carbon nanotube technology is said to >> require half the energy of normal pyrolysis - and at only 1000 C, plus >> the carbon is not consumed AND recombination can be more >> easily engineered into the system. > > I guess I am left wondering why the nanotubes won't be oxidized > in this reaction. They are, after all, carbon. > >> This lower-temperature requirement would seem to be doable, >> even with Michael Foster's cheap Fresnel Lens, no? >> There is also something in the wind (not the Santa Ana's we should >> hope), related to thermal water decomposition over in >> Westwood,Michael, but it is still in the conceptual stage apparently. >> http://www.research.ucla.edu/tech/ucla05-332.htm > >Even a relatively small, say one square meter, at about F1, is easily >capable of heating its target to a temperature high enough for even >non-catalytic pyrolysis of water. But, that is inefficient and you have >to figure out how to keep the hydrogen and oxygen from recombining. >I'm sure those guys at UCLA have an interesting process, but >academics tend to make things too complicated. What really needs >to take place is an all-out effort to find a really good catalyst. But >that, unfortunately, just requires trying out a lot of different materials. >You just can't just sit down at your computer and come up with one. >Catalysis is, to this day, not well understood. You can say that again. 8-) I have always found it remarkable that the chemical industry is so massively dependent on catalysis, a process which seems to be very little understood. In his Scientific American article Putterman wrote:- ========================================= In the 1920s and 1930s, we learned, chemists working with loudspeakers de- veloped for sonar systems during World War I came across an interesting phe- nomena: a strong sound field could catalyze reactions that take place in an aqueous solution... ========================================= Why does it catalyze materials. Simply this. Inside materials and even more obviously, inside cavitation holes we have a reduced Beta- atmosphere pressure and within those cavities chemistry is very different to what it is outside. Thanks to the genius of Victor Gankin whose book, "How Chemical Bonds Form and Chemical Reactions Proceed." I have realised for some time that the Beta-atmosphere must be at the root of catalysis. Until the consequences of this are worked out, catalysis is bound to remain an empirical science. Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 2 17:58:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j930vZkw009103; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 17:57:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j930vTB6009050; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 17:57:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 17:57:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <003101c5c7b5$5e8994d0$62037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Will this lead to cheaper hydrogen? Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 19:57:03 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002D_01C5C78B.75361F70" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.5 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63536 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01C5C78B.75361F70 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_002E_01C5C78B.75361F70" ------=_NextPart_001_002E_01C5C78B.75361F70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankMichel Foster wrote .... >I have to agree with you about that, although I am sentimentally = attached to >the idea of everyone having a hydrogen generator in his back yard, the >energy being provided by one or more of my el cheapo fresnels, natch.=20 Individual self contained units for home use may become more fact than = fiction.=20 Recent events spawned by a couple of really rowdy girls named Katrina = and Rita have caused some serious rethinking about what represents a " = response " to disasters. In Texas, county by county, leadership have learned rapid response can = only be achieved at the most local level. FEMA' s response is.. " that = is not our job". When asked what their job is.. they reply , long range = planning. In our county ( Fayette) of approx 20,000 , we received a huge influx of = Houston area residents escaping "Rita". The county was overwhelmed, = stores ran out of food, gas, water, etc. The Churches came to the = rescue opening their activities buildings and kitchens. They brought in = food, fed and sheltered the stranded. One church was visited by the Red = Cross and FEMA , who ordered them to close the shelter because it was = not " certified" , The church folks were told they would have to dispose = of ,or send the food back home.=20 The week after ,FEMA was asked if they would ship in some MRE's to store = at the county level for future emergencies and were told they would " = consider sending 1000 meals". One thousand meals ready to eat will feed = 1000 people one meal. This is the type of long range planning by FEMA = ??? Forget depending on FEMA, get a backyard solar powered H = generator for survival=20 >The rampant technophobia that has gripped the industrialized world, >parading as environmentalism.. Kind of amusing that about all the Kyoto treaty has produced is a market = for the sale of pollution credits swapped between various nation's = industrial polluters. Spawned a whole new industry. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_002E_01C5C78B.75361F70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Michel Foster wrote ....
 
>I have to agree with you about that, although I am = sentimentally=20 attached to
>the idea of everyone having a hydrogen generator in = his back=20 yard, the
>energy being provided by one or more of my el cheapo = fresnels,=20 natch.
 
Individual self contained units for home use may become more fact = than=20 fiction.
Recent events spawned by a couple of really rowdy girls named = Katrina=20 and Rita have caused some serious rethinking about what represents a " = response=20 " to disasters.
 In Texas, county by county, leadership have learned = rapid=20 response can only be achieved at the most local level. FEMA' s response = is.. "=20 that is not our job". When asked what their job is.. they reply , = long=20 range planning.
In our county ( Fayette) of approx 20,000 , we received a huge = influx of=20 Houston area residents escaping "Rita". The county was overwhelmed, = stores ran=20 out of  food, gas, water, etc. The Churches came to the rescue = opening=20 their activities buildings and kitchens. They brought in food, fed and = sheltered=20 the stranded. One church was visited by the Red Cross and FEMA , who = ordered=20 them to close the shelter because it was not " certified" , The church = folks=20 were told they would have to dispose of ,or send the food back = home.
The week after ,FEMA was asked if they would ship in some MRE's to = store at=20 the county level for future emergencies and were told they would " = consider=20 sending 1000 meals". One thousand meals ready to eat will feed 1000 = people one=20 meal. This is the type of long range planning by FEMA ???  Forget = depending=20 on FEMA,   get a backyard solar powered H generator for = survival=20

>The rampant technophobia that has gripped the = industrialized=20 world,
>parading as environmentalism..
 
Kind of amusing that about all the Kyoto treaty = has produced is a=20 market for the sale of pollution credits swapped between various = nation's=20 industrial polluters. Spawned a whole new industry.
 
Richard
------=_NextPart_001_002E_01C5C78B.75361F70-- ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01C5C78B.75361F70 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <002c01c5c7b5$5e079390$62037841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01C5C78B.75361F70-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 2 19:18:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j932HtbL032653; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 19:18:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j932Gr3s032299; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 19:16:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 19:16:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000a01c5c7c0$74344cc0$62037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Will this lead to chaeper hydrogen? Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 21:16:21 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01C5C796.8A3750F0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.9 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,HTML_40_50,HTML_MESSAGE,J_CHICKENPOX_65, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63537 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C5C796.8A3750F0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0007_01C5C796.8A3750F0" ------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C5C796.8A3750F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankAs a side note to mention of FEMA response. Houston has a disaster = plan with first response built around a volunteer organization made up = of people from area churches. When Katrina hit New Orleans, the people = were sent to the Superdome and the Convention Center in New Orleans. NO = food , no water, no sleeping cots etc. The ones disbursed by busses to Houston were met at the Dome Stadium by = the volunteer organization and ushered into the air conditioned Dome = where sleeping cots. food and water were available. Interesting that the volunteers used a system like WalMart greeters do. = The volunteers didn't wait inside the Dome, they went out to the busses = and greeted the evaucees and walked them inside. This attitude focused = on kindnees and compassion. This not only reduced the stress level but it resulted in cooperation = and calmness. In Texas, where no man's life nor fortune is safe when the legislature = in in session, naturally the politicians took credit for the wonderful = job they were personally responsible for in caring for the evaucees. = Next FEMA stepped forward to hog the glory. Left mostly unsaid was the years of planning by the volunteer = organizations actually responsible for the idea, planning and execution. = The Second Baptist church,among others, using their energy and = facilities, had conducted training courses yearly for this purpose. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C5C796.8A3750F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
As a side note to mention of FEMA response. Houston has a disaster = plan=20 with first response built around a volunteer organization made up of = people from=20 area churches. When Katrina hit New Orleans, the people were sent to the = Superdome and the Convention Center in New Orleans. NO food , no water, = no=20 sleeping cots etc.
 
The ones disbursed by busses to Houston were met at the Dome = Stadium by the=20 volunteer organization and ushered into the air conditioned Dome where = sleeping=20 cots. food and water were available.
 
Interesting that the volunteers used a system like WalMart greeters = do. The=20 volunteers didn't wait inside the Dome, they went out to the busses and = greeted=20 the evaucees and walked them inside. This attitude focused on kindnees = and=20 compassion.
This not only reduced the stress level but it resulted in = cooperation and=20 calmness.
 
In Texas, where no man's life nor fortune is safe when the = legislature in=20 in session, naturally the politicians took credit for the wonderful job = they=20 were personally responsible for in caring for the evaucees. Next FEMA = stepped=20 forward to hog the glory.
 
 Left mostly unsaid was the years of planning by the volunteer = organizations actually responsible for the idea, planning and execution. = The=20 Second Baptist church,among others, using their energy and = facilities, had=20 conducted training courses yearly for this purpose.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C5C796.8A3750F0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C5C796.8A3750F0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000501c5c7c0$72aa2a50$62037841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C5C796.8A3750F0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 2 20:18:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j933I6T5020682; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 20:18:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j933I426020652; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 20:18:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 20:18:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: deceptively simple question Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 13:17:38 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta02ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.77.227] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Mon, 3 Oct 2005 03:17:38 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j933HhLu020443 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63538 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Alex Caliostro's message of Thu, 29 Sep 2005 06:28:41 -0600: Hi, [snip] >>From: Robin van Spaandonk > >>Why are *high* pressure areas warm, and *low* pressure areas cold? >>(If low pressure regions are caused by rising *warm* air, then >>they shouldn't be *cold*, they should be warm). > >because low pressure results from dimples and hi pressure from bumps > >bumps hold in heat > >dimples have less insulation between earth and cold space ...Hmmmm. :) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk In a town full of candlestick makers, everyone lives in the light, In a town full of thieves, there is only one candle, and everyone lives in the night. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 2 23:10:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j936AIvT008215; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 23:10:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j936AGr1008196; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 23:10:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 23:10:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: temalloy metro.lakes.com (Unverified) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 01:09:04 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: OT humor Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63539 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: With all the bandwith used on oil and climate change, I couldn't resist posting this http://today.iwon.com/toonfunview/id/9.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 3 00:33:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j937X96c010822; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 00:33:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j937X7sv010804; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 00:33:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 00:33:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20051002121525.02980c70 mail.newenergytimes.com> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20051002121525.02980c70 mail.newenergytimes.com> Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 02:32:47 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: Islands of Ignorance Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63540 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I posted and Steve Krivit replied >>Ignorance, eh? How about information science? IMHO, the islands of >>ignorance map should have the U of Maryland in bright red. > > >Thomas, > >Why? Because of his antics with CF? It's Parksie's whole shtick. CF is one part of it, I assume you've heard his line, "I've yet to read a paper which proved CF". That was because when someone handed him a paper he let it slip through his fingers. Then there is his famous line, "I don't care about you isotopic ratios" Now I ask you, have you ever heard the line, my mind is made up, stop trying to confuse me with your evidence? Then there is his attacks on my right to purchase herbs. Do I want the Parksie retirement fund to pay for them? No. Is my taking herbs going to affect his health? No. But he's from the government, and he's here to help! Spare me. Then there is his attacks on energy medicine, a subject of which he has less understanding than does a pig about Easter. All I know is that I have used homeopathic preparations three times, and it was symptoms gone three out of three. If someone would give me a few million $, I'd love to run a study, is that going to happen? don't hold your breath. But, I digress. Even Jed, atheist that he is, admits that there has to be some kind of an energy based intelligence which organized life. AFAIK, there have been many theorists who have attacked the second law of thermodynamics, and none of them have succeeded. All what we in the Intelligent Design movement are asking is that children be instructed in how complicated a living organism is. Taking it one step further there is Ross's book Creator and the Cosmos. There are many conditions and physical constants: if any of them were changed, life would be impossible. It's not just an individual cell that's complicated, it's the whole web of life, which collectively reverses entropy both in concentrating solar energy into phytochemicals, it's the DNA. It's a control system which resets itself through the sexual fusion process. The biotechnicians were unable to come up with a function for the majority of DNA, so they labeled it "junk DNA." What hubris! IMHO, it acts as a receiver for a form of energy that we don't understand. We are threatening their religion, and they don't like it one little bit! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 3 00:57:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j937v0VH018637; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 00:57:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j937uveB018611; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 00:56:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 00:56:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 02:56:37 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: pyrolysis in nanotubes Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="============_-1083796287==_ma============" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63541 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --============_-1083796287==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Jones Beene posted; Pyrolysis (thermal decomposition) of water normally requires lots of high temperature thermal energy, plus a means to avoid immediate recombination - but what about catalytic pyrolysis? A new technique using carbon nanotube technology is said to require half the energy of normal pyrolysis - and at only 1000 C, plus the carbon is not consumed AND recombination can be more easily engineered into the system. This lower-temperature requirement would seem to be doable, even with Michael Foster's cheap Fresnel Lens, no? Great post Jones! I would speculate the the bonds holding the carbon atoms in the nanotube, to each other are stronger than the strength of the bonds of the reaction. IMHO, it would be great if the observed chemical reactions didn't fit with existing chemical theory. --============_-1083796287==_ma============ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" pyrolysis in nanotubes
Jones Beene posted;

Pyrolysis (thermal decomposition) of water normally requires lots of high temperature thermal energy, plus a means to avoid immediate recombination - but what about catalytic pyrolysis?

A new technique using carbon nanotube technology is said to require
half the energy of normal pyrolysis - and at only 1000 C, plus the carbon is not consumed AND recombination can be more easily engineered into the system.
This lower-temperature requirement would seem to be doable, even with Michael  Foster's cheap Fresnel Lens, no?

Great post Jones! I would speculate the the bonds holding the carbon atoms in the nanotube, to each other are stronger than the strength of the bonds of the reaction. IMHO, it would be great if the observed chemical reactions didn't fit with existing chemical theory.
--============_-1083796287==_ma============-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 3 02:24:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j939Nsic019114; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 02:24:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j939NNhB018959; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 02:23:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 02:23:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20051003092259860.D20F11C002E6 mwinf3003.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20051003092300.00a0a490 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 10:23:00 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: pyrolysis in nanotubes Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63542 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 02:56 am 03/10/2005 -0500, Thomas wrote: >> Jones Beene posted; >> >> Pyrolysis (thermal decomposition) of water normally requires lots of >> high temperature thermal energy, plus a means to avoid immediate >> recombination - but what about catalytic pyrolysis? >> >> A new technique using carbon nanotube technology is said to require >> half the energy of normal pyrolysis - and at only 1000 C, plus the >> carbon is not consumed AND recombination can be more easily >> engineered into the system. > >> This lower-temperature requirement would seem to be doable, even with >> Michael Foster's cheap Fresnel Lens, no? > Great post Jones! I would speculate the the bonds holding the carbon > atoms in the nanotube, to each other are stronger than the strength > of the bonds of the reaction. IMHO, it would be great if the observed > chemical reactions didn't fit with existing chemical theory. Catalysis has never fitted in with existing chemical theory so there's nothing intrinsically new about the catalytic action of nanotubes. They are, however, a wonderfully clear example of how hiding a reaction away from the external Beta-atmosphere pressure alters the chemistry of that reaction. Frank Grimer ============================ Intratua vulnera absconde me Ne permitas me separari a te ============================ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 3 05:46:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j93CkBPr016944; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 05:46:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j93Ck967016921; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 05:46:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 05:46:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] X-Originating-Email: [caliostro1795 hotmail.com] X-Sender: caliostro1795 hotmail.com In-Reply-To: From: "Alex Caliostro" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: deceptively simple question Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 06:45:51 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Oct 2005 12:45:51.0725 (UTC) FILETIME=[631889D0:01C5C818] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63543 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >From: Robin van Spaandonk> >dimples have less insulation between earth and >cold space > > >...Hmmmm. :) okay, in words an engineer or scientist can understand its the weight of the atmosphere which determines the barometric pressure -- high pressure areas are oft called ridges because they are a thickening of the atmosphere -- it is this thicker atmosphere which slows the earth from reradiating the absorbed sunlight back into space low pressure areas are oft called troughs -- i hope the rest is obvious _____ -alex _________________________________________________________________ Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee® Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 3 06:50:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j93Do8EM018803; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 06:50:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j93Do6is018780; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 06:50:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 06:50:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <4enl2a$1btmsfa mxip03a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.97,169,1125892800"; d="scan'208"; a="1473999338:sNHT14731842" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: OrionWorks Organization: OrionWorks To: CC: Subject: CF: A Heated History (Radio Transcript) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 8:49:41 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63544 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://www.loe.org/shows/segments.htm?programID=05-P13-00039&segmentID=2 http://tinyurl.com/9a999 Air Date: Week of September 30, 2005 Bruce Gellerman continues his investigation into the future of fusion with a look at the latest research in the field of cold fusion, the science of creating a nuclear reaction at room temperature. Most scientists call sustained cold fusion reactions impossible, but others say their experiments are producing energy --- Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 3 08:27:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j93FRB0r031173; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 08:27:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j93FR6Ed031060; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 08:27:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 08:27:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003001c5c82e$d5fc4de0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: Word of the Day Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 08:26:32 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63545 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Cowabunga! malefactor.... Sadly, at the end of 2001, "The Mavens" Word of the Day web site ceased-and-desisted; but thankfully... work-wrecking continues unabated, even in energy-related circles... and I'm not just talking bovine-emissions here. Passing-gas for the eco-laugh has come a long way, brother. Apropos of nothing, really, the word-of-the-day archive is still available online reverberating its wisdom into cyberspace; and fittingly "Farewell" was the final entry (for you couch-potato-trivialites). Here is the url and it is ready-and-waiting for you spin-doctors (Sept 28,2000) out there to enjoy and plagiarize. http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?action=dly__cron_arc&year=2001&fn=word Anyway... this preambling circumambulation is mentioned purely in the context of another hilarious word-wrecking new-Vo energy article - drudged up in a surfing-session this just morning: an article by former Vo Eric Baard. [BTW whatever happened to Eric?] My original surfing 'break-point' had been the catchy phrase "Grass Guzzlers" picked up by Sterling yesterday ... which is coming back into vogue, now that reformed-biomass as a power source for automotive transportation is (once again) seeming like a more viable option - like a broken-record that is finally going to be unstuck. Anyways, Eric was four years ahead of the curve in this trippy Village Voice article, "Refill Madness" which executed even more serious word-wrecking than I had bargained for: http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0132,baard,27099,1.html Such continuing redundancy of energy-ideas is once again the chatter, as it was then, inside the confusedly preambling circumambulation of the "Hemp Car," which was a 1983 Mercedes - powered by oil squeezed from cannabis seeds and converted into biodiesel. Apparently not all of the power-source went into the Benz-tank however. One wonders where this outfit is today... probably still tanked and circling no-doubt, and seeding their message in Humboldt county while looking for a refill. Hey guys... did you forget-to-remember that sensimilla has no seeds! Eric, if you're still out there... maybe its a fine time to revise this story for a more science oriented clientele; but this time with an emphasis on elephant-grass-biomass-reforming. We don't want to jeopardize our cash-crops for the daily commute now - do we? Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 3 10:29:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j93HSs0J008246; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 10:29:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j93HSqKn008220; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 10:28:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 10:28:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20051003172826889.D91951C00086 mwinf3011.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20051003172828.0096d224 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 18:28:28 +0100 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: "And the hills of the Chankly Bore!" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63546 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: During an archive search for Thomas Malloy's original post on Ventura's audio interview with Podkletnov, I happened to turn up the following Beaty post which is rather relevant to the Podketnov-Hutchison-Shoulders Effect. ==================================================== Tesla article. hoax, but a good one? William Beaty Wed, 15 Jun 2005 19:28:22 -0700 Here's an old link I stumbled across once again. I don't think we've discussed it here: Tesla unknown manuscript http://farshores.org/wmtesla.htm The missing details about hardware, and all the convenient excuses, clearly says "hoax." But still the concepts are pretty cool. If not Tesla himself, the author is well-read with considerable experience in crackpot physics. I particularly liked the part about the radial smoke patterns and weight changes (stolen right from the Podkletnov story?) Imagine if aether did exist, if moving aether-blobs could be produced and manipulated with HV equipment, could provide propulsion, cancel inertia, supply energy, etc. Build a Tesla-based electrogravity aircraft? Fill your garage with glowing ball lightnings? Or just take cosmic potshots at the Siberian tundra. On the other hand, maybe it's not a hoax... ==================================================== On starting to read the account passages like.... "There was an old writing book inside the helmet, apparently used as a lining. The writing book had thin and partially burnt covers producing the smell of mould. All its yellowing sheets were full of notes written in ink faded under the influence of time..." ....seem penned by some later day Robert Louis Stevenson and as fictional as Treasure Island. However, reading further I couldn't help but be astonished how close the insights came to my own Beta-atmosphere view of things. Indeed, but for my own publications which have a very different starting point than Tesla - or his doppelganger - I feel I would not be able to defend myself from the charge of plagiarism. Now obviously, the author and the story about the existence of a manuscript, etc., is so much moonshine - but a hoax? I very much doubt it. I think it more likely that the author is someone who believed what he wrote and wanted to promulgate it - but was too shy or afraid to attach his own name to these beliefs out of embarrassment or even possibly, fear for his career prospects. Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 3 12:21:21 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j93JKUBr023256; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 12:20:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j93JKRDM023200; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 12:20:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 12:20:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: And the hills of the Chankly Bore! X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 909b8a8ff0cae19159d456a4b333f05c Reply-To: michael.foster excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20051003191953.BAD683D44 xprdmailfe10.nwk.excite.com> Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 15:19:53 -0400 (EDT) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63547 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: And here I thought I was the only one to have a theory wacked-out enough to believe that space is actually the highest density stuff around, and that everything in it is just wave forms. I was going to mention how my pet crackpot theory meshes nicely with your Beta- atmosphere idea, but now I see I'm quite a bit too late. If the phenomena we discuss here are actually electromagnetic vortices, wouldn't they travel at a velocity considerably less than that of light? This would agree with the way smoke rings travel at less than the speed of sound, no? Incidentally, my grandmother was a young woman in Colorado Springs when Tesla was doing his thing there. I used to be told stories of ball lightning wandering in through the window and vanishing into the plumbing or getting shocks through the nails in your shoes when out for a walk. This part is a hoot, too. She said he sounded something like Bela Lugosi. I didn't know who Tesla was at the time, nor apparently did my grandmother who spoke of a "tall foreign man". I was in my late twenties when I first knew of Tesla, and realized who the "tall foreigner" must have been. Unfortunately, it was too late then to ask my grandmother for more of her memories. M. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 3 13:20:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j93KJrOF030921; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 13:20:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j93KJnUk030867; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 13:19:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 13:19:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051003160243.046352e0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 16:19:00 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Islands of Ignorance In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20051002121525.02980c70 mail.newenergytimes.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63548 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: >Do I want the Parksie retirement fund to pay for them? No. Is my taking >herbs going to affect his health? No. But he's from the government, and >he's here to help! Park is from the University of Maryland, which I suppose is part of the Maryland government, but that's a stretch. I believe he has many sympathizers within the government, and also within the APS. >Even Jed, atheist that he is, admits that there has to be some kind of an >energy based intelligence which organized life. Nope. Not me. Nothing "organized" life as far as I know. It is like free market capitalism: it works well precisely because there is no overall organization, no plan, and no one in charge. Energy increases the information content in living systems (mainly expressed as DNA), but nothing can organize life, plan it, or give it any purpose. It is manifestly without purpose. >All what we in the Intelligent Design movement are asking is that children >be instructed in how complicated a living organism is. Complication is no indication of plan or intent. The stock market is one of the most complicated human institutions but it is also the most random, unpredictable, and unplanned. That is, as I said, its greatest strength, and the source of its survival. The same goes for life. If the most intelligent creature imaginable were to try to plan it or direct the development of life, first it would fail because life is unimaginably complex, and second the end product would be millions of times less complex and surprising. Intelligence always reuses good ideas, and it is rational, whereas evolution has come up with countless redundant ways of accomplishing the same thing, and at the same times it also reuses some mechanisms to achieve utterly different purposes, in ways that would be pathologically crazy if an intelligent creature were in charge. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 3 13:43:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j93Kgdjt011060; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 13:42:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j93KgcWU011029; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 13:42:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 13:42:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051003163726.0461b5a0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 16:42:06 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: CF: A Heated History (Radio Transcript) In-Reply-To: <4enl2a$1btmsfa mxip03a.cluster1.charter.net> References: <4enl2a$1btmsfa mxip03a.cluster1.charter.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63549 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This show is pretty good. However, as far as I can tell it has not stirred up much public interest in the subject. There is a link to LENR-CANR.org at the bottom of the transcript. It has not generated much traffic. Incidentally, you can find many links are to any web page on Google, and you can see all of the links. For example, enter the search terms: link:www.nytimes.com (171,000 links!) link:nytimes.com (not as many) link:www.lenr-canr.org (Only 72, including some internal links. Sniff. Some real weirdos.) - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 3 13:46:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j93KkBmj013356; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 13:46:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j93Kk9sa013331; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 13:46:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 13:46:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20051003204534805.C4A8A5C00084 mwinf3113.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20051003204536.00a0388c pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 21:45:36 +0100 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: And the hills of the Chankly Bore! Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63550 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 03:19 pm 03/10/2005 -0400, Michael wrote: > If the phenomena we discuss here are actually > electromagnetic vortices, wouldn't they travel at > a velocity considerably less than that of light? This > would agree with the way smoke rings travel at less > than the speed of sound, no? Agreed - That is a big problem But if EP can actually prove his pulses do travel at 64 times the speed of light I'll be happy to recant. ;-) > And here I thought I was the only one to have a theory > wacked-out enough to believe that space is actually > the highest density stuff around, and that everything > in it is just wave forms. I was going to mention how > my pet crackpot theory meshes nicely with your Beta- > atmosphere idea, but now I see I'm quite a bit too late. Mmm... Not necessarily since you must have started, like me, from a different point than Mr.Adze. I would be intrigued to hear of your journey across the Torrible Zone. If you should feel too embarrassed to expose your beliefs and their history to the vulgar Vortexian mob you can always email them to me direct. 8-) Cheers, Frank ===================================================== And in twenty years they all came back, In twenty years or more, And every one said, 'How tall they've grown! For they've been to the Lakes, and the Torrible Zone, And the hills of the Chankly Bore!' And they drank their health, and gave them a feast Of dumplings made of beautiful yeast; And every one said, 'If we only live, We too will go to sea in a Sieve,--- To the hills of the Chankly Bore!' ===================================================== From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 3 14:20:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j93LJU78031918; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 14:19:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j93LJRaC031856; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 14:19:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 14:19:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: deceptively simple question Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2005 07:18:56 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.77.227] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Mon, 3 Oct 2005 21:18:56 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j93LJ12A031517 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63551 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Alex Caliostro's message of Mon, 03 Oct 2005 06:45:51 -0600: Hi, [snip] >low pressure areas are oft called troughs -- i hope the rest is obvious > [snip] Yes, the rest is then obvious. However now the question arises, as to what causes the ridges and troughs. I suppose the obvious answer is the atmosphere is in constant motion in a closed system, so it is inevitable that concentrations of air arise at times. Yet this is not an explanation that I am particularly happy with. Perhaps you could supply the conventional explanation? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk In a town full of candlestick makers, everyone lives in the light, In a town full of thieves, there is only one candle, and everyone lives in the night. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 3 14:33:02 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j93LWJkC006712; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 14:32:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j93LWB4q006562; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 14:32:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 14:32:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001c01c5c861$b5b52e20$99017841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: And to the hills of the Chankly Bore Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 16:30:39 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0018_01C5C837.CA7BE1C0"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.5 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,HTML_50_60,HTML_MESSAGE,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63552 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C5C837.CA7BE1C0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0019_01C5C837.CA7BE1C0" ------=_NextPart_001_0019_01C5C837.CA7BE1C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankAt 03:19 pm 03/10/2005 -0400, Michael wrote: > If the phenomena we discuss here are actually > electromagnetic vortices, wouldn't they travel at > a velocity considerably less than that of light? This > would agree with the way smoke rings travel at less > than the speed of sound, no? Grimer wrote.. >Agreed - That is a big problem Took me awhile to recollect Chankly Bore.. then I remembered my old = grandmother Blanche and her never ending supply of "ditties" Phenomena.. ?? Story of one of the inventors of the magnetic 3 phase = circuit breaker.. was asked how it worked?? His answer.. Well! , its based on an "inverse time = envelope".=20 Hence the name of the Company became ITE circuit breaker company. What is strange is the actual way the darn thing worked describes an = area of the phenomena of electromagnetic vortices theory. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0019_01C5C837.CA7BE1C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
At 03:19 pm 03/10/2005 -0400, Michael wrote:

> If the = phenomena=20 we discuss here are actually
> electromagnetic vortices, wouldn't = they=20 travel at
> a velocity considerably less than that of light? = This
>=20 would agree with the way smoke rings travel at less
> than the = speed of=20 sound, no?
Grimer wrote..

>Agreed - That is a big problem <g>
 
 
 
Took me awhile to recollect Chankly Bore..  then I remembered = my old=20 grandmother Blanche and her never ending supply of "ditties"
 
Phenomena.. ?? Story of one of the inventors of the magnetic 3 = phase=20 circuit breaker.. was asked how it worked??
           &n= bsp;        =20 His answer..  Well! , its based on an "inverse time = envelope". 
 Hence the name of the Company became ITE circuit breaker=20 company.
 
What is strange is the actual way the darn thing worked describes = an area=20 of the phenomena of electromagnetic vortices theory.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0019_01C5C837.CA7BE1C0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C5C837.CA7BE1C0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001701c5c861$b34d55e0$99017841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C5C837.CA7BE1C0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 3 14:53:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j93Lqi8O020054; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 14:52:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j93Lqhhl020029; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 14:52:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 14:52:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] X-Originating-Email: [caliostro1795 hotmail.com] X-Sender: caliostro1795 hotmail.com In-Reply-To: From: "Alex Caliostro" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: deceptively simple question Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 15:52:21 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Oct 2005 21:52:21.0667 (UTC) FILETIME=[BB6C9F30:01C5C864] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63553 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >From: Robin van Spaandonk >I suppose the obvious >answer is the atmosphere is in constant motion in a closed system, >so it is inevitable that concentrations of air arise at times. Yet >this is not an explanation that I am particularly happy with. >Perhaps you could supply the conventional explanation? left as an exercise to the student? the conventional explanation involves the westernly flow of the upper atmosphere which moves clockwise around the ridges and windershins around the troughs -- the resulting sinusoid westernlies may number 3 to 5 waves around the hemisphere ah, but, grasshopper, i believe you seek a greater truth consider the earth as a cathode supplying electrons to the sun and the variance of the peaks of the westernlies with the axis to the ecliptic how is your spring downunder? _____ -alex _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 3 14:54:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j93LrW96020482; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 14:53:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j93LrVdU020456; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 14:53:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 14:53:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001a01c5c864$d2c5cb70$99017841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: OT: Old Milwaukee Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 16:52:59 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0016_01C5C83A.E959EC10"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.6 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,HTML_MESSAGE,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: <3fUD2C.A.f_E.ahaQDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63554 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C5C83A.E959EC10 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0017_01C5C83A.E959EC10" ------=_NextPart_001_0017_01C5C83A.E959EC10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankMy youngest son just returned from running the Milwaukee marathon = along with his running team. Said the weather was WAY to humid .. Sounds like Texas..=20 Did someone mess with the weather up there Thomas ?? They sure didn't = bring their own Texas weather cause we still got it. record heat plus 100 F for September daily. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0017_01C5C83A.E959EC10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
My youngest son just returned from running the Milwaukee marathon = along=20 with his running team.
Said the weather was WAY to humid .. Sounds like Texas..
Did someone mess with the weather up there Thomas ?? They sure = didn't bring=20 their own Texas weather cause we still got it.
record heat plus 100 F for September daily.
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0017_01C5C83A.E959EC10-- ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C5C83A.E959EC10 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001501c5c864$d22ce6d0$99017841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C5C83A.E959EC10-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 3 15:20:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j93MJwEM009170; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 15:20:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j93MJvfV009146; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 15:19:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 15:19:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20051003151657.029afe78 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 15:17:40 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: CF: A Heated History (Radio Transcript) In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20051003163726.0461b5a0 pop.mindspring.com> References: <4enl2a$1btmsfa mxip03a.cluster1.charter.net> <6.2.1.2.2.20051003163726.0461b5a0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63555 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I don't think that's very accurate, I think there are many more. At 01:42 PM 10/3/2005, you wrote: >This show is pretty good. However, as far as I can tell it has not stirred >up much public interest in the subject. There is a link to LENR-CANR.org >at the bottom of the transcript. It has not generated much traffic. > >Incidentally, you can find many links are to any web page on Google, and >you can see all of the links. For example, enter the search terms: > >link:www.nytimes.com (171,000 links!) >link:nytimes.com (not as many) > >link:www.lenr-canr.org (Only 72, including some internal links. Sniff. >Some real weirdos.) > >- Jed > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 3 15:34:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j93MY3Jv020099; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 15:34:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j93MY1h7020042; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 15:34:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 15:34:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051003174755.0460e1b0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 18:33:25 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Chris Zell's point about economics In-Reply-To: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50A156B86 CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu .clearchannel.com> References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50A156B86 CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63556 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Zell, Chris wrote: >The real horror here would be a situation in which the premium NEVER comes >down in real dollars - enough to justify the difference. That would >suggest that the price difference represents the value of the additional >energy put into the vehicle and thus - (gasp!) NEVER WOULD MAKE ANY NET >DIFFERENCE in energy consumption. It's all well and good for 'experts' to >calculate but the economic reality MUST agree. This is an astute comment. I believe it is rooted in classic economics. The other day I posted a calculation showing that it would take ~20 years for the Prius to pay back the $3,720 "premium" compared to the Corolla. That was a mistake. Putting the numbers into a proper a spreadsheet, for 11,766 miles per year, I get 110 gallons extra, which costs $276, and the payback time is 13.5 years. That is still too long, as Zell fears. However, there are mitigating circumstances. For people who drive long distances the hybrid already pays for itself, even compared to the Corolla. Plug in 25,000 miles per year, and the payback falls to 6.3 years. Raise the price of gas to $3.00 and it falls to 5.3 years. People who drive such long distances might be considered a niche market but there are probably tens of millions of them, more than enough to sustain sales. Also, as Ed Storms pointed out, the Prius has other advantages in styling, size, quietness, and an overall "cool" design. So let us go with what the trade magazines say, and set the "premium" at $3,000, moving the other $720 over to the "extra cost for cool styling." Payback is now 4.3 year, which is reasonable. Most corporations would invest in equipment that pays back in this amount of time. They would not throw away old equipment that still had usable lifetime, but when it came time to purchase new equipment they would certainly consider this a reasonable return on investment. There are some other extenuating circumstances that bode well for the future: * As I said, in the near future better batteries are expected, and these should substantially improve the Prius performance without increasing the cost. * At present, Toyota is the only company in the U.S. with a truly cost-effective and popular hybrid model. They can charge anything they want for this feature. Actually, they are doing us a favor by selling the car for only $22,000. But this monopoly will not last forever. When other companies begin offering "strong" hybrid cars competition will push down the price. (The Honda Insight is a "strong hybrid" but it is not selling.) * A plug-in hybrid model would knock all other cars completely out of the ring, giving most drivers effectively well over 100 mpg. I think we can expect these within a few years. The add-on kits will arrive within months and I expect they will prove extremely popular with Prius drivers and with the general public. Toyota will see that this is a public relations gold mine, and they will cease their present mild opposition to the idea. (The main reason they have opposed it is because they think it will confuse the customers, who they believe do not want to plug in an electric car. I think they have totally misread the public, and in particular I think they have misread the people who are buying the Prius at this stage, who are geeks like me. I can read their minds!) As a general rule, the tail end of an obsolescent technology is usually close to the starting point of the new improved technology. The new technology does not at first leap far ahead of the old, to achieve performance that would be unthinkable. It does later though: the plug-in hybrid that gets 150 mpg will never be equaled by any production model conventional car. I believe the last generation of fast British stagecoaches on a good day could keep up with the earliest, slowest railroad trains, at around 15 mph. They could barely keep up but they did manage it. When steam passenger ships became popular on the North Atlantic routes, some of the remaining clipper ships advertised very cheap rates and swift passages. The captains made good on these advertised times by piling on far too much canvas for safety, which scared the hell out of passengers, and ran the ships and crews ragged. The other day, I wrote that you can achieve the same mileage with a conventional car as a Prius, but "you could *barely* achieve the same performance. You would end up with a small, stripped-down, noisy, dangerous and underpowered conventional car, whereas the Prius is a midsize luxury car, very safe and quiet." The last generation of clipper ships could only compete the same way: stripped down and dangerous, healing far over and battered to pieces. Compared to last generation of sailing ships, the first steamships were luxurious, safe and swift, but at first they were not cheaper or economically justified for most people. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 3 15:52:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j93Mplmd031362; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 15:52:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j93MphqP031308; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 15:51:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 15:51:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20051003152307.029dd3b0 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 15:49:35 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: Islands of Knowledge In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20051002121525.02980c70 mail.newenergytimes.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <-6M-yC.A.2oH.-XbQDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63557 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > >It's Parksie's whole shtick. CF is one part of it, I assume you've heard >his line, "I've yet to read a paper which proved CF". That was because >when someone handed him a paper he let it slip through his fingers. Then >there is his famous line, "I don't care about you isotopic ratios" Now I >ask you, have you ever heard the line, my mind is made up, stop trying to >confuse me with your evidence? Then there is his attacks on my right to >purchase herbs. Do I want the Parksie retirement fund to pay for them? No. >Is my taking herbs going to affect his health? No. But he's from the >government, and he's here to help! Spare me. Then there is his attacks on >energy medicine, a subject of which he has less understanding than does a >pig about Easter. All I know is that I have used homeopathic preparations >three times, and it was symptoms gone three out of three. If someone would >give me a few million $, I'd love to run a study, is that going to happen? >don't hold your breath. But, I digress. Hi Thomas, I've had a few dances with Park before: http://newenergytimes.com/critics/park.htm and WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 10 Dec 04, "COLDER-THAN-EVER FUSION: THIS BOOK WON'T END THE CONTROVERSY." And I share your views about health and alternatives. I guess I'm not bothered so much by Park because I can see the future. And I see Park eating filet du crow and flying pig. For dessert, he'll be having egg-on-face. I have inside information that he knows what the f*** is going on with cf and he is desperately trying to find an exit. Too bad for him. It's too late. He put his foot in mouth (Doodoo Science) and reporters (Gellerman, NPR) still find his invective entertaining. He's made his bed.... From a different perspective, we have a lot of freedom in this country. We have the freedom to speak out if we want, we have the freedom to publish and protest. If Park really bothers you, and you feel he is harmful, it may be more than just an opportunity for you to do something about it. People who speak untruths will do so only to the extent that others allow them to do so. Case in point. In researching my book, I challenged all the major critics to discuss aspects of CF. Nearly all of them chose to dance away rather than engage. So when Gellerman called me up in doing the research for his story, I made sure he was well-informed about Garwin's paper and Garwin's predictable attitude. I also made sure Gellerman was well-informed about the high reproducibility of the SPAWAR work. Voila, Garwin's "non-reproducibility" quote is followed by Szpak's "100% reproducibility quote." Give it a little time. Which truth do you think will grow to be generally known and self-evident? Garwin's or Szpaks? So go get creative. Use the 'net. Speak out. Organize. s From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 3 17:21:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j940KuMI020217; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 17:21:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j940KrCh020178; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 17:20:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 17:20:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 20:19:02 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Islands of Knowledge In-reply-to: <6.2.0.14.2.20051003152307.029dd3b0 mail.newenergytimes.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63558 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Steven Krivit wrote: > > > Too bad for him. It's too late. He put his foot in mouth (Doodoo Science) > and reporters (Gellerman, NPR) still find his invective entertaining. Love the title "Doodoo Science" ...write the book. Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 3 19:06:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9425f9m016150; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 19:05:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9425dNY016128; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 19:05:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 19:05:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <001701c5c888$0d2652d0$5c037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: USA Electric power plants, the fast shuffle Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 21:05:10 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0013_01C5C85E.23D17DE0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.9 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,HTML_40_50,HTML_MESSAGE,J_CHICKENPOX_42, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63559 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C5C85E.23D17DE0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0014_01C5C85E.23D48B20" ------=_NextPart_001_0014_01C5C85E.23D48B20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankNRG Energy of Princeton, N.J announced the purchase of Texas Genco. = Texas Genco has 8 generating plants and owns a 44% stake in South Texas = nuclear plant in Bay City,Tx. This gives NRG a generating capacity of nearly 24,000 MGW. Texas Genco was a spin off of Reliant , which also spun off CenterPoint = that now owns the transmission end of the business. Reliant wound up owning the marketing end of the deal and merely has to = broker the power. Texas Genco was first taken private with a deal put together by = Blackstone, KKR and others for a cash outlay of $ 900 mil and in turn = sold it to NRG for $ 5.8 bil and change plus NRG takes over the = outstanding debt. A consolidation of the electric power producers is needed for scale of = size, an owner must have 25,000 MGW capacity to survive ..or so they = say. Methinks we will see more consolidation of the producers and BINGO !! = they all sell out to a GE-Seimens- Toschiba consortium. This is a similar strategy being worked in the water industry and = tollroads.A move to convert the nations interstate highways to all toll = is now growing in Texas and Florida among others. The strategy is called = " enhancing guaranteed revenue streams". The system is operated under a = franchise similar to a state lottery. It may be amusing to watch what happens if CF rears its ugly head and = upsets the gravy train. If one thing has been driven home to people = that had a hurricane experience it is... never depend on the state or = the feds. Have your own water and electric power or become a welfare = recipient of FEMA and their partner Red Cross. Could protecting profits be a reason for the opposition to new energy = forms ? Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0014_01C5C85E.23D48B20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
NRG Energy of Princeton, N.J announced the purchase of Texas Genco. = Texas=20 Genco has 8 generating plants and owns a 44% stake in South Texas = nuclear plant=20 in Bay City,Tx.
 
This gives NRG a generating capacity of nearly 24,000 MGW.
 
Texas Genco was a spin off of Reliant , which also spun off=20 CenterPoint  that now owns the transmission end of the = business.
Reliant wound up owning the marketing end of the deal and merely = has to=20 broker the power.
 
Texas Genco was first taken private with a deal put together by = Blackstone,=20 KKR and others for a cash outlay of $ 900 mil and in turn sold it to NRG = for $=20 5.8 bil and change plus NRG takes over the outstanding debt.
 
A consolidation of the electric power producers is needed for scale = of=20 size, an owner must have 25,000 MGW capacity to survive ..or so they = say.
 
Methinks we will see more consolidation of the producers and = BINGO !!=20 they all sell out to a GE-Seimens- Toschiba consortium.
This is a similar strategy being worked in the water industry and=20 tollroads.A move to convert the nations interstate highways to all = toll is=20 now growing in Texas and Florida among others. The strategy is = called "=20 enhancing guaranteed revenue streams". The system is operated under a = franchise=20 similar to a state lottery.
 
It may be amusing to watch what happens if CF rears its ugly head = and=20 upsets the  gravy train. If one thing has been driven home to = people=20 that had a hurricane experience it is... never depend on the state or = the feds.=20 Have your own water and electric power or become a  welfare = recipient of=20 FEMA and their  partner Red Cross.
 
Could protecting profits be a reason for the opposition = to new=20 energy forms ?
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0014_01C5C85E.23D48B20-- ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C5C85E.23D17DE0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001201c5c888$0c96bd00$5c037841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C5C85E.23D17DE0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 3 19:47:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j942ksqF010140; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 19:47:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j942kqSS010120; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 19:46:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 19:46:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: deceptively simple question Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2005 12:46:25 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta03ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.77.227] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Tue, 4 Oct 2005 02:46:25 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j942kWus009898 Resent-Message-ID: <9hptvD.A.BeC.b0eQDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63560 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Alex Caliostro's message of Mon, 03 Oct 2005 15:52:21 -0600: Master, [snip] >the conventional explanation involves the westernly flow of the upper >atmosphere which moves clockwise around the ridges and windershins around >the troughs -- the resulting sinusoid westernlies may number 3 to 5 waves >around the hemisphere > >ah, but, grasshopper, i believe you seek a greater truth [snip] Thank you for your efforts, but grasshopper has just found the greater truth. The conventional explanation of the World's weather machine as a hot air engine is completely wrong. It is in fact a steam engine. The partial pressure of water vapor at 30 ºC is 31.8 mmHg (See http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/kinetic/watvap.html). When this moisture laden air cools at high altitude the partial vapor pressure drops to near zero. That means a drop in pressure of about 30 mmHg, which is about the difference in pressure between high and low pressure regions. The surrounding air then tries to rush in to fill the ensuing void. When this happens above water, vapor from just above the water surface is swept along with it, and carried up to high altitudes, where it also condenses, perpetuating the pressure differential. Since water vapor is responsible for the pressure differential, it stands to reason that where the pressure differential is greatest, most water vapor will be involved, hence from the deepest lows comes the most rain. This also tallies with observation. This also teaches something else: The deepest low cannot exceed the maximum partial pressure of water vapor at the surface temperature. IOW as the partial vapor pressure goes up, the low gets deeper, which implies that with the higher temperatures brought by global warming, deeper lows and hence more severe storms are to be expected. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk In a town full of candlestick makers, everyone lives in the light, In a town full of thieves, there is only one candle, and everyone lives in the night. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 4 07:02:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j94E1VTi026237; Tue, 4 Oct 2005 07:01:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j94E1EX5026112; Tue, 4 Oct 2005 07:01:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 07:01:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] X-Originating-Email: [caliostro1795 hotmail.com] X-Sender: caliostro1795 hotmail.com From: "Alex Caliostro" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Robert Green steam engine Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2005 08:00:56 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Oct 2005 14:00:56.0778 (UTC) FILETIME=[0ABAD2A0:01C5C8EC] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63561 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: this remarkable engine runs on low pressure steam http://www.greensteamengine.com/ dont miss the animation half way down the page _____ -alex _________________________________________________________________ On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 4 07:54:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j94EsJF2001612; Tue, 4 Oct 2005 07:54:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j94EsGMH001579; Tue, 4 Oct 2005 07:54:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 07:54:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051004105131.042b0d10 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2005 10:53:50 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: 4.5 MW 500 ton wind turbine Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <-cxVxC.A.hY.YepQDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63562 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A monster! The rotor diameter is 114 meters, the tower is 120 meters tall. I think this is mainly intended for offshore applications. See: http://www.diabgroup.com/europe/literature/e_pdf_files/e_pia_pdf/wind/e112.pdf See also: http://www.loe.org/shows/shows.htm?programID=05-P13-00014#feature1 - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 4 08:36:02 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j94FZNme011880; Tue, 4 Oct 2005 08:35:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j94FZHs7011790; Tue, 4 Oct 2005 08:35:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 08:35:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] X-Originating-Email: [caliostro1795 hotmail.com] X-Sender: caliostro1795 hotmail.com In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20051004105131.042b0d10 pop.mindspring.com> From: "Alex Caliostro" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: 4.5 MW 500 ton wind turbine Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2005 09:34:40 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Oct 2005 15:34:40.0554 (UTC) FILETIME=[22C2F0A0:01C5C8F9] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63563 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >From: Jed Rothwell >A monster! The rotor diameter is 114 meters, the tower is 120 meters tall. >I think this is mainly intended for offshore applications. this site has a picture of the e112 installed -- it also has pictures of some curious single-bladed turbines http://www.afm.dtu.dk/wind/turbines/gallery.html _____ -alex _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 4 08:56:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j94FtkP8030599; Tue, 4 Oct 2005 08:56:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j94Ftj2e030562; Tue, 4 Oct 2005 08:55:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 08:55:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] X-Originating-Email: [caliostro1795 hotmail.com] X-Sender: caliostro1795 hotmail.com From: "Alex Caliostro" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: space elevator testing Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2005 09:55:22 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Oct 2005 15:55:22.0355 (UTC) FILETIME=[06EEBC30:01C5C8FC] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63564 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Space Elevator Concept Undergoes “Reel” World Testing By Leonard David Senior Space Writer posted: 23 September 2005 2:33 p.m. ET A private group has taken one small step toward the prospect of building a futuristic space elevator. LiftPort Group Inc., of Bremerton, Washington, has successfully tested a robot climber – a novel piece of hardware that reeled itself up and down a lengthy ribbon dangling from a high-altitude balloon. continued with pictures at http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/050923_spaceelevator_test.html _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 4 09:11:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j94GAa4k014757; Tue, 4 Oct 2005 09:10:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j94GASVs014626; Tue, 4 Oct 2005 09:10:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 09:10:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2005 12:08:29 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: space elevator testing In-reply-to: To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63565 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Is anyone working on a space escalator (stairway to heaven) ? ;-) Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 4 10:41:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j94Hespi010769; Tue, 4 Oct 2005 10:41:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j94Hepk7010707; Tue, 4 Oct 2005 10:40:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 10:40:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=IrBAEC4Ioc5lEKM3Jf+9LTPXAZyl45dey3oviZ/LSYdxv/Y2LrSg0Rsc0bZKAheK; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22005102416385970 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Robert Green steam engine vs Hero's Engine Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 11:38:59 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94051748f8bbd0f58338ff19894cfe7a2ba350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.199 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63566 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Alex Caliostro wrote: > > this remarkable engine runs on low pressure steam > http://www.greensteamengine.com/ So does this 1,900 year-old one, Alex. :-) http://www.aviation-history.com/engines/theory.htm Centuries ago in 100 A.D., Hero, a Greek philosopher and mathematician, demonstrated jet power in a machine called an "aeolipile." A heated, water filled steel ball with nozzles spun as steam escaped. http://physics.kenyon.edu/EarlyApparatus/Thermodynamics/Heros_Engine/Heros_Engine.html and using a soup can inside an air-cooled condensing can, with tangential orifices (sized by using this online calculator) http://www.lenoxlaser.com/calculator/orifice.asp (ammonia vapor and steam are close enough as are N2O-Ethanol etc) a rotary seal at one end and some nylon gearing. A drill bit rapidly rotating inside a tube makes a simple low pressure condensate return pump. :-) Regards Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Alex Caliostro wrote:
>
> this remarkable engine runs on low pressure steam
>
 
So does this 1,900 year-old one, Alex.   :-)
 
 
Centuries ago in 100 A.D., Hero, a Greek philosopher and mathematician, demonstrated jet power in a machine called an "aeolipile." A heated, water filled steel ball with nozzles spun as steam escaped.
 
 
and using a soup can inside an air-cooled  condensing can, with tangential orifices (sized by using this online calculator)
 
 
(ammonia vapor and steam are close enough as are N2O-Ethanol etc) a rotary seal at one end and some nylon gearing.  
 
A drill bit rapidly rotating inside a tube makes a simple low pressure condensate return pump.  :-)
 
Regards
 
Frederick

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 4 11:06:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j94I5lwe001298; Tue, 4 Oct 2005 11:06:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j94I5jbr001282; Tue, 4 Oct 2005 11:05:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 11:05:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=DW9uI+MW2NCWMxTeGf46deT8G1ZEKfLYyc/HrtcRswiyOIvp4LrMQm6bfcoZT/bY; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22005102417316190 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Robert Green steam engine vs Hero's Engine Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 12:03:16 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940b131ac1d0f635ab61c384cf826fc0a22350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.159.152 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63567 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII BTW. Hero's Engine will work on Hot Air too. Michael Foster's Fresnel Lens or a black pipe inside a parabolic solar concentrator, with an air compressor running off the Hero Engine makes a simple Jet Engine. Alex Caliostro wrote: > > this remarkable engine runs on low pressure steam > http://www.greensteamengine.com/ So does this 1,900 year-old one, Alex. :-) http://www.aviation-history.com/engines/theory.htm Centuries ago in 100 A.D., Hero, a Greek philosopher and mathematician, demonstrated jet power in a machine called an "aeolipile." A heated, water filled steel ball with nozzles spun as steam escaped. http://physics.kenyon.edu/EarlyApparatus/Thermodynamics/Heros_Engine/Heros_Engine.html and using a soup can inside an air-cooled condensing can, with tangential orifices (sized by using this online calculator) http://www.lenoxlaser.com/calculator/orifice.asp (ammonia vapor and steam are close enough as are N2O-Ethanol etc) a rotary seal at one end and some nylon gearing. A drill bit rapidly rotating inside a tube makes a simple low pressure condensate return pump. :-) Regards Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

BTW. Hero's Engine will work on Hot Air too. 
 
Michael Foster's Fresnel Lens or a black pipe inside  a parabolic solar concentrator, with
an air compressor running off the Hero Engine makes a simple Jet Engine.
 
Alex Caliostro wrote:
>
> this remarkable engine runs on low pressure steam
>
 
So does this 1,900 year-old one, Alex.   :-)
 
 
Centuries ago in 100 A.D., Hero, a Greek philosopher and mathematician, demonstrated jet power in a machine called an "aeolipile." A heated, water filled steel ball with nozzles spun as steam escaped.
 
 
and using a soup can inside an air-cooled  condensing can, with tangential orifices (sized by using this online calculator)
 
 
(ammonia vapor and steam are close enough as are N2O-Ethanol etc) a rotary seal at one end and some nylon gearing.  
 
A drill bit rapidly rotating inside a tube makes a simple low pressure condensate return pump.  :-)
 
Regards
 
Frederick
 
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 4 11:30:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j94IU45s016739; Tue, 4 Oct 2005 11:30:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j94IU0cM016644; Tue, 4 Oct 2005 11:30:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 11:30:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2005 14:28:13 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Robert Green steam engine vs Hero's Engine In-reply-to: <410-22005102417316190 earthlink.net> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_igKrFOWJFIxwHlVDLHmV/Q)" User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63568 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --Boundary_(ID_igKrFOWJFIxwHlVDLHmV/Q) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT The configuration of the pistons is apparently remarkable. Harry Frederick Sparber wrote: BTW. Hero's Engine will work on Hot Air too. Michael Foster's Fresnel Lens or a black pipe inside a parabolic solar concentrator, with an air compressor running off the Hero Engine makes a simple Jet Engine. Alex Caliostro wrote: > > this remarkable engine runs on low pressure steam > http://www.greensteamengine.com/ So does this 1,900 year-old one, Alex. :-) http://www.aviation-history.com/engines/theory.htm Centuries ago in 100 A.D., Hero, a Greek philosopher and mathematician, demonstrated jet power in a machine called an "aeolipile." A heated, water filled steel ball with nozzles spun as steam escaped. http://physics.kenyon.edu/EarlyApparatus/Thermodynamics/Heros_Engine/Heros_E ngine.html and using a soup can inside an air-cooled condensing can, with tangential orifices (sized by using this online calculator) http://www.lenoxlaser.com/calculator/orifice.asp (ammonia vapor and steam are close enough as are N2O-Ethanol etc) a rotary seal at one end and some nylon gearing. A drill bit rapidly rotating inside a tube makes a simple low pressure condensate return pump. :-) Regards Frederick --Boundary_(ID_igKrFOWJFIxwHlVDLHmV/Q) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Re: Robert Green steam engine vs Hero's Engine The configuration of the pistons is apparently remarkable.

Harry

Frederick Sparber wrote:


BTW. Hero's Engine will work on Hot Air too.  

Michael Foster's Fresnel Lens or a black pipe inside  a parabolic solar concentrator, with
an air compressor running off the Hero Engine makes a simple Jet Engine.

Alex Caliostro wrote:
>
> this remarkable engine runs on low pressure steam
>

http://www.greensteamengine.com/
So does this 1,900 year-old one, Alex.   :-)

http://www.aviation-history.com/engines/theory.htm

Centuries ago in 100 A.D., Hero, a Greek philosopher and mathematician, demonstrated jet power in a machine called an "aeolipile." A heated, water filled steel ball with nozzles spun as steam escaped.

http://physics.kenyon.edu/EarlyApparatus/Thermodynamics/Heros_Engine/Heros_Engine.html

and using a soup can inside an air-cooled  condensing can, with tangential orifices (sized by using this online calculator)

http://www.lenoxlaser.com/calculator/orifice.asp

(ammonia vapor and steam are close enough as are N2O-Ethanol etc) a rotary seal at one end and some nylon gearing.  

A drill bit rapidly rotating inside a tube makes a simple low pressure condensate return pump.  :-)

Regards

Frederick






--Boundary_(ID_igKrFOWJFIxwHlVDLHmV/Q)-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 4 11:33:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j94IWhLO019700; Tue, 4 Oct 2005 11:32:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j94IWaxc019575; Tue, 4 Oct 2005 11:32:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 11:32:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C5C911.EDC06E00" Subject: RE: Robert Green steam engine vs Hero's Engine Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 13:32:09 -0500 Message-ID: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50A1CF3EB CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Robert Green steam engine vs Hero's Engine thread-index: AcXJDnaKDfr7EutrTQmVLGHhZkkg5AAA0XgQ From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Oct 2005 18:32:09.0370 (UTC) FILETIME=[EDF34FA0:01C5C911] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63569 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5C911.EDC06E00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable how about running this thing on methylene chloride or ammonia- water? =20 Something for us folks in colder climates. ________________________________ From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net]=20 Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 1:03 PM To: vortex-l Subject: Re: Robert Green steam engine vs Hero's Engine BTW. Hero's Engine will work on Hot Air too. =20 =20 Michael Foster's Fresnel Lens or a black pipe inside a parabolic solar concentrator, with an air compressor running off the Hero Engine makes a simple Jet Engine. =20 Alex Caliostro wrote: >=20 > this remarkable engine runs on low pressure steam >=20 =20 http://www.greensteamengine.com/ So does this 1,900 year-old one, Alex. :-) =20 http://www.aviation-history.com/engines/theory.htm =20 Centuries ago in 100 A.D., Hero, a Greek philosopher and mathematician, demonstrated jet power in a machine called an "aeolipile." A heated, water filled steel ball with nozzles spun as steam escaped.=20 =20 http://physics.kenyon.edu/EarlyApparatus/Thermodynamics/Heros_Engine/Her os_Engine.html =20 and using a soup can inside an air-cooled condensing can, with tangential orifices (sized by using this online calculator) =20 http://www.lenoxlaser.com/calculator/orifice.asp =20 (ammonia vapor and steam are close enough as are N2O-Ethanol etc) a rotary seal at one end and some nylon gearing. =20 =20 A drill bit rapidly rotating inside a tube makes a simple low pressure condensate return pump. :-) =20 Regards =20 Frederick =20 =20 =20 =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5C911.EDC06E00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
how about running this thing on methylene = chloride or=20 ammonia- water?
 
Something for us folks in colder=20 climates.

From: Frederick Sparber=20 [mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net]
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, = 2005 1:03=20 PM
To: vortex-l
Subject: Re: Robert Green steam = engine vs=20 Hero's Engine

BTW. Hero's Engine will work on Hot Air too. 
 
Michael Foster's Fresnel Lens or a black pipe inside  a = parabolic=20 solar concentrator, with
an air compressor running off the Hero Engine makes a simple Jet=20 Engine.
 
Alex Caliostro wrote:
>
> this remarkable engine runs on low pressure steam
> =
 
So does this 1,900 year-old one, Alex.   :-)
 
http://www.av= iation-history.com/engines/theory.htm
 
Centuries ago in 100 A.D., Hero, = a Greek=20 philosopher and mathematician, demonstrated jet power in a machine = called an=20 "aeolipile." A heated, water filled steel ball with nozzles spun as = steam=20 escaped.
 
http://physics.kenyon.edu/EarlyApparatus/Thermodyn= amics/Heros_Engine/Heros_Engine.html
 
and using a soup can inside an air-cooled  condensing = can, with=20 tangential orifices (sized by using this online calculator)
 
http://www.leno= xlaser.com/calculator/orifice.asp
 
(ammonia vapor and steam are close enough as are N2O-Ethanol etc) a = rotary=20 seal at one end and some nylon gearing.  
 
A drill bit rapidly rotating inside a tube makes a simple low = pressure=20 condensate return pump.  :-)
 
Regards
 
Frederick
 
 
 
 

------_=_NextPart_001_01C5C911.EDC06E00-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 4 12:21:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j94JJpYa029764; Tue, 4 Oct 2005 12:20:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j94JJmtm029716; Tue, 4 Oct 2005 12:19:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 12:19:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] X-Originating-Email: [caliostro1795 hotmail.com] X-Sender: caliostro1795 hotmail.com In-Reply-To: <410-22005102417316190 earthlink.net> From: "Alex Caliostro" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Robert Green steam engine vs Hero's Engine Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2005 13:18:37 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Oct 2005 19:18:37.0634 (UTC) FILETIME=[6BE2A220:01C5C918] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63570 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >From: "Frederick Sparber" >BTW. Hero's Engine will work on Hot Air too. then this list alone could power 14 normal sized homes :-Þ _____ -alex _________________________________________________________________ Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 4 12:31:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j94JUMP1007112; Tue, 4 Oct 2005 12:30:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j94JULgw007082; Tue, 4 Oct 2005 12:30:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 12:30:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=ix.netcom.com; b=fGTnRpjBFL7dbmb7TuQ8ffK56CP7Mu/WnpaEiNmtVLSFy2q/E2Y3u7oT/P0fy9FT; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220051024193110590 ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.1.47.0 (Windows) From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Oil. Oil, everywhere? Whether goest Cold Fusion? Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 12:31:10 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d829407806350e40fbb2d83e859472b17b93caf27dac41a8fd350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 216.175.93.117 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63571 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Oct. 04, 2005 Vortex, As posted earlier when oil was around thirty dollars a barrel, Canadian tar sand oil was being scooped up profitably at nine dollars a barrel. With the half speculative market for oil now running at well over sixty dollars a barrel, investment fever in those tar sands have heated up. Even China has been looking for tar sand assets to buy. It was estimated that recoverable oil was close to equalling those of Saudi Arabia. (so why invade Iraq?) Now, heightened interest is rising on existing oil assets that estimates reserves at Four Times that of Saudi Arabia. And this is because the oil prices are comfortably stable above thirty dollars a barrel. BP has been at recovery efforts for nine years and just about succeeding. Others are at it also. And all that oil is in the continental United States as massive oil shale deposits. And I do not believe those reserves are part of the "peak oil" estimation. Then aside from oil is our coal reserves of several hundred year's worth. What with humanity's mission by "Intelligent Design" going helter skelter down the combustion road --- where in hell are we going? -ak- ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Oct. 04, 2005
 
Vortex,
 
As posted earlier when oil was around thirty dollars a barrel, Canadian tar sand oil was being scooped up profitably at nine dollars a barrel. With the half speculative market for oil now running at well over sixty dollars a barrel, investment fever in those tar sands have heated up. Even China has been looking for tar sand assets to buy. It was estimated that recoverable oil was close to equalling those of Saudi Arabia. (so why invade Iraq?)
Now, heightened interest is rising on existing oil assets that estimates reserves at Four Times that of Saudi Arabia. And this is because the oil prices are comfortably stable above thirty dollars a barrel.  BP has been at recovery efforts for nine years and just about succeeding. Others are at it also. And all that oil is in the continental  United States as massive oil shale deposits. And I do not believe those reserves are part of the "peak oil" estimation.
Then aside from oil is our coal reserves of several hundred year's worth. 
What with humanity's mission by "Intelligent Design" going helter skelter down the combustion road --- where in hell are we going?
 
-ak-  
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 4 12:37:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j94Jam12011813; Tue, 4 Oct 2005 12:37:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j94JajAq011755; Tue, 4 Oct 2005 12:36:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 12:36:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=nibKBPJyRs1tn00lsmONJRLa2w9w7uXd3OJHG+CsQnit8sJHmciClKKQNaz4/3+Z; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220051024183535260 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Robert Green steam engine vs Hero's Engine Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 13:35:35 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9409a8a8c911deded169a491871aa89e73e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.159.15 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63572 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At least. :-) > [Original Message] > From: Alex Caliostro > To: > Date: 10/4/05 2:20:07 PM > Subject: Re: Robert Green steam engine vs Hero's Engine > > >From: "Frederick Sparber" > > >BTW. Hero's Engine will work on Hot Air too. > > then this list alone could power 14 normal sized homes :-Þ > > _____ > -alex > > _________________________________________________________________ > Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! > http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 4 12:37:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j94Jao6l011841; Tue, 4 Oct 2005 12:37:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j94JalwD011769; Tue, 4 Oct 2005 12:36:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 12:36:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=l109R1mORJf+JXjV0cyc2wo/JjoFnoDe1SaSJU6EPJ55lM7yAGnv8lgxgP5qNHJ2; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22005102418348150 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Robert Green steam engine vs Hero's Engine Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 13:34:08 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9409a8a8c911deded163cd16ec855c3186b350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.159.15 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63573 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Chris Zell wrote: > how about running this thing on methylene chloride or ammonia- water? > Something for us folks in colder climates. If you are referring to the Hero Engine the calculator gives ammonia as well as Methyl Chloride CH3Cl. Either should do okay in Green's "steam engine" too, but I don't think you want to mess with it or Methyl Chloride!. :-( http://www.sciencestuff.com/msds/C1680.html "Vapors cause eye and skin irritation. Contact with liquid may cause severe irritation and possible burns. May be absorbed through skin. Inhalation and ingestion may cause respiratory tract irritation and central nervous system depression characterized by headache, nausea, vomiting, dizziness and drowsiness. Persons with pre-existing eye, skin or respiratory conditions may be more susceptible. Target organs: Central nervous system, liver, lungs and pancreas. " http://www.inchem.org/documents/icsc/icsc/eics0419.htm. http://www.lenoxlaser.com/calculator/orifice.asp Frederick From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net] Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 1:03 PM To: vortex-l Subject: Re: Robert Green steam engine vs Hero's Engine BTW. Hero's Engine will work on Hot Air too. Michael Foster's Fresnel Lens or a black pipe inside a parabolic solar concentrator, with an air compressor running off the Hero Engine makes a simple Jet Engine. Alex Caliostro wrote: > > this remarkable engine runs on low pressure steam > http://www.greensteamengine.com/ So does this 1,900 year-old one, Alex. :-) http://www.aviation-history.com/engines/theory.htm Centuries ago in 100 A.D., Hero, a Greek philosopher and mathematician, demonstrated jet power in a machine called an "aeolipile." A heated, water filled steel ball with nozzles spun as steam escaped. http://physics.kenyon.edu/EarlyApparatus/Thermodynamics/Heros_Engine/Heros_Engine.html and using a soup can inside an air-cooled condensing can, with tangential orifices (sized by using this online calculator) http://www.lenoxlaser.com/calculator/orifice.asp (ammonia vapor and steam are close enough as are N2O-Ethanol etc) a rotary seal at one end and some nylon gearing. A drill bit rapidly rotating inside a tube makes a simple low pressure condensate return pump. :-) Regards Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
 Chris Zell wrote:
> how about running this thing on methylene chloride or ammonia- water?
 
> Something for us folks in colder climates.
 
If you are referring to the Hero Engine the calculator gives ammonia as well
as Methyl Chloride CH3Cl. Either should do okay in Green's "steam engine" too,
but I don't think you want to mess with it or  Methyl Chloride!. :-(
 
 
"Vapors cause eye and skin irritation. Contact with liquid may cause severe irritation and possible burns. May be absorbed through skin. Inhalation and ingestion may cause respiratory tract irritation and central nervous system depression characterized by headache, nausea, vomiting, dizziness and drowsiness. Persons with pre-existing eye, skin or respiratory conditions may be more susceptible. Target organs: Central nervous system, liver, lungs and pancreas. "
 
 
 
 

Frederick
From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net]
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 1:03 PM
To: vortex-l
Subject: Re: Robert Green steam engine vs Hero's Engine

BTW. Hero's Engine will work on Hot Air too. 
 
Michael Foster's Fresnel Lens or a black pipe inside  a parabolic solar concentrator, with
an air compressor running off the Hero Engine makes a simple Jet Engine.
 
Alex Caliostro wrote:
>
> this remarkable engine runs on low pressure steam
>
 
So does this 1,900 year-old one, Alex.   :-)
 
 
Centuries ago in 100 A.D., Hero, a Greek philosopher and mathematician, demonstrated jet power in a machine called an "aeolipile." A heated, water filled steel ball with nozzles spun as steam escaped.
 
 
and using a soup can inside an air-cooled  condensing can, with tangential orifices (sized by using this online calculator)
 
 
(ammonia vapor and steam are close enough as are N2O-Ethanol etc) a rotary seal at one end and some nylon gearing.  
 
A drill bit rapidly rotating inside a tube makes a simple low pressure condensate return pump.  :-)
 
Regards
 
Frederick
 
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 4 12:46:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j94JjwC2017562; Tue, 4 Oct 2005 12:46:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j94Jib1u016837; Tue, 4 Oct 2005 12:44:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 12:44:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <4enh83$1fp60d6 mxip15a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.97,173,1125892800"; d="scan'208"; a="1603469734:sNHT193128850" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: OrionWorks Organization: OrionWorks To: CC: Subject: Re: Robert Green steam engine vs Hero's Engine Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 14:43:57 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63574 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: How does Robert Green's novel steam engine configuration compare to the efficiency of a good sterling engine? Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 4 12:53:02 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j94JqLmc021153; Tue, 4 Oct 2005 12:52:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j94JqGZV021097; Tue, 4 Oct 2005 12:52:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 12:52:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C5C91D.1237AFD2" Subject: RE: Oil. Oil, everywhere? Whether goest Cold Fusion? Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 14:51:55 -0500 Message-ID: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50A1CF4E0 CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Oil. Oil, everywhere? Whether goest Cold Fusion? thread-index: AcXJGkbcn+WBpBI3T/2HQXdkYqCZTQAAVUuA From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Oct 2005 19:51:54.0899 (UTC) FILETIME=[12591630:01C5C91D] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63575 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5C91D.1237AFD2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A new plant was recently approved in Pennsylvania to create heating oil and diesel fuel out of waste coal. Much of it lies around and pollutes streams, anyway. =20 I understand that China is looking at coal conversion too. Other good news are ethanol plant expansion in the plains/farming states - while the energy conversion isn't so good, it nevertheless puts the creation of a motor fuel substitute in an area away from coastal refineries. =20 Notice too, reports that the Saudis are concerned about expensive oil. Many of them take a long term view and realize that $30+ /barrel oil can shift production away from them. =20 The coolest thing is hearing that India is pushing for more thorium use in reactors. They have tons of the stuff - and as many encyclopedias say there is more energy in world thorium deposits than all the uranium, oil and gas in the world combined! ________________________________ From: Akira Kawasaki [mailto:aki ix.netcom.com]=20 Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 3:31 PM To: vortex-l Subject: Oil. Oil, everywhere? Whether goest Cold Fusion? Oct. 04, 2005 =20 Vortex, =20 As posted earlier when oil was around thirty dollars a barrel, Canadian tar sand oil was being scooped up profitably at nine dollars a barrel. With the half speculative market for oil now running at well over sixty dollars a barrel, investment fever in those tar sands have heated up. Even China has been looking for tar sand assets to buy. It was estimated that recoverable oil was close to equalling those of Saudi Arabia. (so why invade Iraq?) Now, heightened interest is rising on existing oil assets that estimates reserves at Four Times that of Saudi Arabia. And this is because the oil prices are comfortably stable above thirty dollars a barrel. BP has been at recovery efforts for nine years and just about succeeding. Others are at it also. And all that oil is in the continental United States as massive oil shale deposits. And I do not believe those reserves are part of the "peak oil" estimation. Then aside from oil is our coal reserves of several hundred year's worth.=20 What with humanity's mission by "Intelligent Design" going helter skelter down the combustion road --- where in hell are we going? =20 -ak- =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5C91D.1237AFD2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
A new plant was recently approved in = Pennsylvania=20 to create heating oil and diesel fuel out of waste coal. Much of it lies = around
and pollutes streams, = anyway.
 
I understand that China is looking at coal = conversion=20 too.  Other good news are ethanol plant expansion in the = plains/farming=20 states - while
the energy conversion isn't so good, it = nevertheless=20 puts the creation of a motor fuel substitute in an area away from = coastal=20 refineries.
 
Notice too, reports that the Saudis are = concerned about=20 expensive oil.  Many of them take a long term view and realize that = $30+=20 /barrel
oil can shift production away from=20 them.
 
The coolest thing is hearing that India is = pushing for=20 more thorium use in reactors.  They have tons of the stuff - and as = many=20 encyclopedias
say there is more energy in = world thorium deposits=20 than all the uranium, oil and gas in the world = combined!

From: Akira Kawasaki = [mailto:aki ix.netcom.com]=20
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 3:31 PM
To:=20 vortex-l
Subject: Oil. Oil, everywhere? Whether goest Cold=20 Fusion?

Oct. 04, 2005
 
Vortex,
 
As posted earlier when oil was around thirty dollars a barrel, = Canadian tar=20 sand oil was being scooped up profitably at nine dollars = a=20 barrel. With the half speculative market for oil now running at well = over sixty=20 dollars a barrel, investment fever in those tar sands have heated up. = Even China=20 has been looking for tar sand assets to buy. It was estimated that = recoverable=20 oil was close to equalling those of Saudi Arabia. (so why invade = Iraq?)
Now, heightened interest is rising on existing oil assets that = estimates=20 reserves at Four Times that of Saudi Arabia. And this is because = the oil=20 prices are comfortably stable above thirty dollars a barrel.  BP = has been=20 at recovery efforts for nine years and just about succeeding. Others are = at it=20 also. And all that oil is in the continental  United States as = massive oil=20 shale deposits. And I do not believe those reserves are part of the = "peak=20 oil" estimation.
Then aside from oil is our coal reserves of several hundred year's=20 worth. 
What with humanity's mission by "Intelligent Design" going helter = skelter=20 down the combustion road --- where in hell are we going?
 
-ak-  
------_=_NextPart_001_01C5C91D.1237AFD2-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 4 14:10:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j94L9e4e019060; Tue, 4 Oct 2005 14:09:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j94L9bFQ019017; Tue, 4 Oct 2005 14:09:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 14:09:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: Robert Green steam engine vs Hero's Engine Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 16:09:15 -0500 Message-ID: <000001c5c927$e1050fc0$5c5e10ac eDentsply.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <4enh83$1fp60d6 mxip15a.cluster1.charter.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j94L9G3B018758 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63576 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The novelty of the green engine is the wobble connection conversion of linear to rotary, not the steam part. The prime mover could easily be switched out with a 2 cylinder sterling configuration. The question that needs to be asked is not the efficiency of the system, but the durability. There looks like there would be a great deal of axial loading on the flywheel bearing, excess vibration overall, and significant cycling of the flex member. What's appealing about it is the linear piston action and no crankcase. -john -----Original Message----- From: OrionWorks [mailto:orionworks charter.net] Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 2:44 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: orionworks charter.net Subject: Re: Robert Green steam engine vs Hero's Engine How does Robert Green's novel steam engine configuration compare to the efficiency of a good sterling engine? Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 4 14:20:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j94LJog2025631; Tue, 4 Oct 2005 14:20:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j94LJjd2025569; Tue, 4 Oct 2005 14:19:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 14:19:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=D4plPZF3SCjdqlKv1TLBrL3XPq05td+BuE8OlMH8tM+sq7SnMzXprSeMnxe0KMpN; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220051024201822460 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Robert Green steam engine vs Hero's Engine Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 15:18:22 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9409cd750fc89f2c18656ae02afcfe03f07350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.235 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63577 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Steven Vincent Johnson wrote > > How does Robert Green's novel steam engine configuration compare to the efficiency of a good sterling engine? > Since the sterling engine predated the steam engine, it looks like it doesn't do very well unless the hot side temperature is above 500 C. Lots of hype about the sterling but not much else except for exotic applications. Sunpower did a lot of work on developing the stove-heated 1 KW sterling engines/linear generators for 3rd world countries but nothing came of it. Frederick > > Regards, > Steven Vincent Johnson > www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 4 14:36:01 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j94LYdVW001480; Tue, 4 Oct 2005 14:34:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j94LYbkq001439; Tue, 4 Oct 2005 14:34:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 14:34:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=gIMpyu9aXFGMaup0I7mV82s9D0aVsbyA4Q0HxtpVUeloYK1Nrax7s+Z3v2/Sbyo/; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22005102420332780 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Robert Green steam engine vs Hero's Engine Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 15:33:27 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940df261dc309302a1881b7517cf331a5e9350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.235 Resent-Message-ID: <0BzSKB.A.TW.sVvQDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63578 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Steck wrote: > > The novelty of the green engine is the wobble connection conversion of > linear to rotary, not the steam part. The prime mover could easily be > switched out with a 2 cylinder sterling configuration. > > The question that needs to be asked is not the efficiency of the system, but > the durability. There looks like there would be a great deal of axial > loading on the flywheel bearing, excess vibration overall, and significant > cycling of the flex member. What's appealing about it is the linear piston > action and no crankcase. The wobble plate and swash plate linear to rotary devices have been around for eons in air powered devices etc. http://www.animatedsoftware.com/pumpglos/swashpla.htm A bit more reliable I'd say Frederick > > -john > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: OrionWorks [mailto:orionworks charter.net] > Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 2:44 PM > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Cc: orionworks charter.net > Subject: Re: Robert Green steam engine vs Hero's Engine > > > How does Robert Green's novel steam engine configuration compare to the > efficiency of a good sterling engine? > > Regards, > Steven Vincent Johnson > www.OrionWorks.com > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 4 15:23:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j94MN1tR026504; Tue, 4 Oct 2005 15:23:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j94MMxJF026474; Tue, 4 Oct 2005 15:22:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 15:22:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051004182107.042209b0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2005 18:22:24 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Garwin's disingenuous comments Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63579 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Krivit and I both took Garwin to task for his disingenuous comments during the radio broadcast. See: http://lenr-canr.org/News.htm http://www.newenergytimes.com/Reports/GarwinLewisReport/garwin.htm - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 4 19:25:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j952Oe3I031020; Tue, 4 Oct 2005 19:24:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j952Ob3m031002; Tue, 4 Oct 2005 19:24:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 19:24:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <001a01c5c864$d2c5cb70$99017841 xptower> References: <001a01c5c864$d2c5cb70$99017841 xptower> Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 21:23:58 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: OT: Old Milwaukee Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63580 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Richard posted >My youngest son just returned from running the Milwaukee marathon >along with his running team. >Said the weather was WAY to humid .. Sounds like Texas.. >Did someone mess with the weather up there Thomas ?? They sure >didn't bring their own Texas weather cause we still got it. >record heat plus 100 F for September daily. > I'm too tight to have air conditioning, so when it gets hot, I sit in front of the fan, I call this fan time. I normally put the fan away at the first week of September, but this year I'm still using it. I just unplugged it, but not it's drying my socks. The front came through two hours ago, so now the temperature is perfect. Unfortunately, we're having a flood in Minneapolis. I've got 8 inches or more of water in my alley. My house is on one of the highest places in town. The storm sewer system appears to have been over whelmed by this rain. The weather report says this is the biggest rain since the legendary storm of 1987. The worst part may be ahead, as there is a line of storm to the south west extending into Iowa, and they're headed in this direction. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 4 19:38:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j952bds9005540; Tue, 4 Oct 2005 19:37:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j952bapZ005493; Tue, 4 Oct 2005 19:37:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 19:37:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=DQvkjtcPvo6/CTGPbe7fBLQPTsdT5zP6vGKQL94NZGJV0OnKMMBQM66gbjopZ7iU; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22005103513613140 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Sealed Beam Tungsten-Halogen Headlamp OU Solar Collectors Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 20:36:13 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9403d2834ec14b14176dbc76c7c682fb9d2350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.247 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63581 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII The 1.56 eV Iodine-Iodine and 2.00 eV Bromine-Bromine bond and their bond to evaporated Tungsten atoms is broken on the solar heated filament. A bank of these mounted on a panel rigged for solar tracking could be an OU device. Some lamps have built-in Fresnel lenses. Tungsten- External Metal X Thermoelectric conversion? Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
The 1.56 eV Iodine-Iodine and 2.00 eV Bromine-Bromine bond and their bond to
evaporated Tungsten atoms is broken on the solar heated filament.
 
A bank of these mounted on a panel rigged for solar tracking could be an OU device.
 
Some lamps have built-in Fresnel lenses.
 
Tungsten- External Metal X   Thermoelectric conversion?
 
Frederick
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 4 20:13:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j953DBuP028115; Tue, 4 Oct 2005 20:13:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j953D72v028070; Tue, 4 Oct 2005 20:13:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 20:13:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Methyl Chloride X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 909b8a8ff0cae19159d456a4b333f05c Reply-To: michael.foster excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20051005024930.D4B6FC0C6E xprdmailfe25.nwk.excite.com> Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 22:49:30 -0400 (EDT) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63582 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Fred wrote: > If you are referring to the Hero Engine the calculator > gives ammonia as well as Methyl Chloride CH3Cl. Either > should do okay in Green's "steam engine" too but I don't > think you want to mess with it or Methyl Chloride!. :-( Now Fred, you shouldna got me started. Usually, outfits like the EPA and others try to avoid any serious discussion of methyl chloride. 'Cause if they do, somebody who knows what he's talking about is going to shout, "Bullshit!" Methyl chloride is produced in such massive quantities by the ocean that if the entire industrial enterprise of the human race were devoted to making nothing but methyl chloride, it wouldn't even be that metaphorical drop in the bucket. Ever wonder why the ocean smells like the ocean? Yes, it's methyl choride, and in quantities the EPA wouldn't approve. Exactly which environment are they trying to protect? Next time you go to the beach, take a deep invigorating breath and say to yourself, "Mmmm, now that's some of the best methyl chloride I've ever smelled." All that phytoplankton busy at work "polluting" the environment is a sight to behold, microscopically speaking. BTW, I drive the Pacific Coast Highway to work every morning and I've noticed all the traffic signals with LEDs have begun to have faulty and failing individual parts. This doesn't seem to happen inland. I've a half-baked hypothesis that the methyl chloride, which penetrates the acrylic-styrene encapsulant easily, might have opened the diode junction to atmospheric attack. Anyway, this makes funny flickering patterns in the green lights, standing flamingos and other oddments of my imagination. M. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 5 02:08:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9597i24010287; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 02:07:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9597gtJ010258; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 02:07:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 02:07:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20051003160243.046352e0 pop.mindspring.com> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20051002121525.02980c70 mail.newenergytimes.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20051003160243.046352e0 pop.mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 04:07:11 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: Islands of Ignorance Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63583 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >thomas malloy wrote: > >>Do I want the Parksie retirement fund to pay for them? No. Is my >>taking herbs going to affect his health? No. But he's from the >>government, and he's here to help! > >Park is from the University of Maryland, which I suppose is part of >the Maryland government, but that's a stretch. I believe he has many >sympathizers within the government, and also within the APS. Parksie didn't get where he is today without supporters. His attacks on both alternative energy and health are right out of the liberal establishments agenda. His attacks on Intelligent Design, are part of their plan to create stratifications in society, see Brave New World, based on intellectual ability. If an occupying army had done to our educational system what the liberal establishment had done, see www.deliberatedumbingdown.com , to our educational system, we would consider it an act of war. > >>Even Jed, atheist that he is, admits that there has to be some kind >>of an energy based intelligence which organized life. > >Nope. Not me. Nothing "organized" life as far as I know. It is like >free market capitalism: it works well precisely because there is no >overall organization, no plan, and no one in charge. So you maintain that life just happened? You believe that nonliving material just became animated? Given what you've previously posted, I'm going to assume that the answer is yes, you and Parksie make strange bedfellows. > >Energy increases the information content in living systems (mainly >expressed as DNA), but nothing can organize life, plan it, or give >it any purpose. It is manifestly without purpose. Given the complexity of living systems, that belief is, to put it mildly, improbable. > >>All what we in the Intelligent Design movement are asking is that >>children be instructed in how complicated a living organism is. > >Complication is no indication of plan or intent. The stock market is >one of the most complicated human institutions No, but an integrated system which reverses entropy is. I don't understand how the movement of the stock market is germane to the complexity of the living organism. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 5 03:00:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j95A0WG0001830; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 03:00:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j95A0UXl001801; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 03:00:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 03:00:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=Um1+qn3xChlRv0aVnZKtIh8Y+/KIsWzksUZbSbkJ3SrMaMwWJUvgf1fFXCc71SdN; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22005103585922520 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: RE: Methyl Chloride Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 03:59:22 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94071e0809a18d69234df31daae5308d5e1350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.145 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63584 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michael Foster wrote: > > Fred wrote: > > > If you are referring to the Hero Engine the calculator > > gives ammonia as well as Methyl Chloride CH3Cl. Either > > should do okay in Green's "steam engine" too but I don't > > think you want to mess with it or Methyl Chloride!. :-( > > Now Fred, you shouldna got me started. Usually, outfits > like the EPA and others try to avoid any serious discussion > of methyl chloride. 'Cause if they do, somebody who knows > what he's talking about is going to shout, "Bullshit!" > > Methyl chloride is produced in such massive quantities by > the ocean that if the entire industrial enterprise of the > human race were devoted to making nothing but methyl chloride, > it wouldn't even be that metaphorical drop in the bucket. > Ever wonder why the ocean smells like the ocean? Yes, it's > methyl choride, and in quantities the EPA wouldn't approve. > Exactly which environment are they trying to protect? > > Next time you go to the beach, take a deep invigorating > breath and say to yourself, "Mmmm, now that's some of the > best methyl chloride I've ever smelled." All that > phytoplankton busy at work "polluting" the environment > is a sight to behold, microscopically speaking. > > BTW, I drive the Pacific Coast Highway to work every morning > and I've noticed all the traffic signals with LEDs have > begun to have faulty and failing individual parts. This doesn't > seem to happen inland. I've a half-baked hypothesis that the > methyl chloride, which penetrates the acrylic-styrene > encapsulant easily, might have opened the diode junction to > atmospheric attack. Anyway, this makes funny flickering > patterns in the green lights, standing flamingos and other > oddments of my imagination. > This could be your problem, Michael. :-) http://www.mts.net/~william5/history/hol.htm PLATO - (c 427 - c 347 BC) Plato was a Greek philosopher and one of the most creative and influential thinkers in Western philosophy. Born to an aristocratic family in Athens, he eventually became a disciple of Socrates. The Platonic School complicated the theory of light, by supposing that vision was produced by rays of light that originate in the eye and then strike the object being viewed. Methyl Chloride lamps perhaps? Frederick > > M. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com > The most personalized portal on the Web! > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 5 06:55:01 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j95DsFF6016437; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 06:54:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j95Ds1hi016272; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 06:54:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 06:54:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <4enk4p$835brn mxip27a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.97,177,1125892800"; d="scan'208"; a="271757175:sNHT21063552" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: OrionWorks Organization: OrionWorks To: CC: Subject: Re: Methyl Chloride - Ray Tracing Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 8:48:23 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63585 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net] ... > PLATO - (c 427 - c 347 BC) > Plato was a Greek philosopher and one of the most creative > and influential thinkers in Western philosophy. Born to an > aristocratic family in Athens, he eventually became a > disciple of Socrates. The Platonic School complicated the > theory of light, by supposing that vision was produced by > rays of light that originate in the eye and then strike the > object being viewed. Just a side comment here. While the Platonic School may have complicated the theory of light by implying rays of light originating from our human eyes to strike objects being viewed, it is one of the most popular procedures used to generate 3D graphics. It's called RAY TRACING. The complexity of 3D computer graphics would be impossible without the software algorithms of ray tracing. I'd say Plato was 2300 years ahead of his time. ;-) Here's an example of 3D ray tracing done by yours truly, with some Post PhotoShop enhancement: http://www.orionworks.com/artgal/svj/Blue_Jewel_m.htm Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 5 07:56:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j95EtkVk026188; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 07:56:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j95EtfVK026108; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 07:55:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 07:55:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Methyl Chloride X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 909b8a8ff0cae19159d456a4b333f05c Reply-To: michael.foster excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20051005145503.71D813E07 xprdmailfe6.nwk.excite.com> Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 10:55:03 -0400 (EDT) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63586 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Keith wrote: > Hi Michael, > Perhaps you should actually check what the EPA sez about Methyl Chloride? > http://www.epa.gov/ttn/atw/hlthef/methylch.html > Methinks you've been inhaling too much Vortex of recent, > it has a corrosive effect on common sense (grin). > K. I have read it. That's when I became suspicious of their giving specific numbers for industrial toxicity levels, but describing "low levels" in the natural environment. I have a portable gas chromatagraph. These things are really cool. They just attach to the bottom of a laptop computer and the program that comes with them identifies the peaks in the resulting graph. This is particularly nice for those of us who have forgotten most of our college chemistry. Normally, I would just leave the thing at work, but: Within a mile of the shore, I measured methyl choride levels greatly exceeding the EPA's industrial numbers. Five miles out, the level drops off slightly, but still the ocean would have to be shut down, according to the EPA. These measurements were made at five or six feet above the water line. Everything is toxic at some level. I'm afraid it's the EPA that needs a dose of common sense; theirs seems to have been corroded by a case of toxic chemophobia ;-} BTW, their are lots of volatile amines out there above the ocean. No doubt these exceed EPA permissible levels, too. M. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 5 08:14:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j95FEU4W009914; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 08:14:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j95FESjA009893; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 08:14:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 08:14:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051005101843.04ba1200 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2005 11:12:45 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Islands of Ignorance - and islands of reversed entropy In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20051002121525.02980c70 mail.newenergytimes.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20051003160243.046352e0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63587 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: >So you maintain that life just happened? You believe that nonliving >material just became animated? Yup. I am sure of it. You should not pretend to be surprised that I think so. Most biologists agree, as I am sure you know. >Given what you've previously posted, I'm going to assume that the answer >is yes, you and Parksie make strange bedfellows. Park and I probably agree on 99% of the textbooks in any field. Most science is well founded and not a bit controversial. >>Energy increases the information content in living systems (mainly >>expressed as DNA), but nothing can organize life, plan it, or give it any >>purpose. It is manifestly without purpose. > >Given the complexity of living systems, that belief is, to put it mildly, >improbable. You equate complexity with purpose -- with intelligence. There is absolutely no basis for this belief in science, mathematics, or logic. You (and the other creationists) invented this out of whole cloth a couple decades ago, yet you treat it like a physical law! It reminds me of the way people worship the notion that "extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proof." No one believed that snippet of nonsense before Carl Sagan came up with it, and no one should pay any attention to it now. There are countless complex phenomena in chemistry and physics, both animate and inanimate, which any educated person knows do not reflect plan or purpose. Take snowflakes, for example. I presume you agree that the complex crystal structure of snowflakes is entirely the product of known laws of chemistry and physics. Take the weather, or plasma physics, cold fusion, or catalysis. Take any one of a million known phenomena! All are complex, and all are guided by fixed laws of nature, never by intent. The most insidious problem with your belief is that it explains away *everything*, not just biology. By your standard, we might as well stop trying to look for the cause of CF. It is caused by intent; by supernatural will. End of story. There is no answer to be found. Ditto quarks, leptons, "Huntington's disease, spontaneous remission of cancer . . ." See: http://slate.msn.com/id/2127054/ QUOTE: "Because the really great thing about intelligent design is that it takes all the awkward uncertainty out of science. It says, 'You know those damn theoretical gaps and conundrums that send microbiology graduate students into dank basement laboratories at 3 a.m.? They don't need to be resolved at all. Go back to bed, sleepy little grad students. God fills those gaps.' Let's face it: The problem with science has always been that each new discovery unleashes thousands of new questions and ambiguities. So really, the more we discover new stuff, the stupider we get. Clearly, that isn't working. ID says we shouldn't bother ourselves with resolving scientific inconsistencies or untangling puzzles. We should recognize that what God really wants is for us just to stop learning." >>Complication is no indication of plan or intent. The stock market is one >>of the most complicated human institutions > >No, but an integrated system which reverses entropy is. Oh come now. You know better than that. There is no overall reversal of entropy on earth. The energy input from the sun is degraded, overall. Enhancements are local and temporary. For that matter, a stream of water sometimes goes uphill. Part of a stream of water that splashes against a rock sometimes gushes up and ends up higher, and local eddies sometimes swirl upstream. Overall, the entire mass of water falls, and entropy increases. > I don't understand how the movement of the stock market is germane to > the complexity of the living organism. As I just explained, both are examples of complexity without organization, purpose or plan. Neither is guided in any sense. Of course there have been incidents in which the stock market was secretly guided or influenced by small groups of people, but these instances seldom last long and they always end badly. By the same token, from time to time, localized events in the development of life have been influenced or guided by intelligent species -- and not just people, either. That is, events are influenced by the intent of the participants. But there is no uber-mind guiding the stock market. Indeed, it is obvious to all observers that the overall direction of the market is often idiotic, pointless or self-destructive. The same is true of the development of life. As Macbeth put it, life is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 5 08:19:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j95FIvg8012350; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 08:19:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j95FIoLv012267; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 08:18:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 08:18:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4343EEB9.5040507 pobox.com> Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2005 11:18:17 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.10) Gecko/20050719 Fedora/1.7.10-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: aki ix.netcom.com CC: vortex-l Subject: Re: Oil. Oil, everywhere? Whether goest Cold Fusion? References: <410-220051024193110590 ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: <410-220051024193110590 ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63588 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: By the way, thanks very much for the What's New posts. I know I'll risk being run out of the group on a rail by saying this, but while Parks seems to be a "pathological skeptic" (much like The Amazing Randi) who would find a way to deny it if aliens landed on his own front yard and abducted his wife and dog, none the less I find his little newsletter to be frequently entertaining and/or informative. _Most_ things he's skeptical about appear to deserve it (again, much like Randi). Akira Kawasaki wrote: > Oct. 04, 2005 > > Vortex, > > As posted earlier when oil was around thirty dollars a barrel, > Canadian tar sand oil was being scooped up profitably at nine dollars > a barrel. With the half speculative market for oil now running at well > over sixty dollars a barrel, investment fever in those tar sands have > heated up. Even China has been looking for tar sand assets to buy. It > was estimated that recoverable oil was close to equalling those of > Saudi Arabia. (so why invade Iraq?) The ratio of energy-out/energy-in is very low with tar sands -- much, much lower than with liquid petroleum. The cost is therefore necessarily far, far higher per BTU extracted, and the process is sufficiently difficult that it's hard to see how to extract it fast enough to satisfy demand. (Or so I have read.) > Now, heightened interest is rising on existing oil assets that > estimates reserves at Four Times that of Saudi Arabia. And this is > because the oil prices are comfortably stable above thirty dollars a > barrel. BP has been at recovery efforts for nine years and just about > succeeding. Others are at it also. And all that oil is in the > continental United States as massive oil shale deposits. And I do not > believe those reserves are part of the "peak oil" estimation. > Then aside from oil is our coal reserves of several hundred year's worth. Right -- but the cost of recovery is so high for oil shale and for gassified coal that we will, at the least, most likely see far more efficient cars and trucks in the future, and we'll see a lot more people actively looking for ways to avoid driving. And that seems like a Good Thing, long term, though short term it hurts. > What with humanity's mission by "Intelligent Design" going helter > skelter down the combustion road --- where in hell are we going? We're going to cook the world if we don't get our CO2 emissions down, is where we're going. But again, the cost of extraction of tar sand, oil shale, and gassified coal is likely to force a substantial reduction in at least one major cause of GH gasses, which is auto and truck traffic, and it's likely to encourage construction of alternative electricity sources as well, such as wind farms, which will reduce another source. Now, if we could just think of some way to get people to stop eating beef, so there would be less incentive to burn off the rainforests to make grazing land, it might be possible to feel some little spark of optimism about things, whether or not CF ever becomes commercially useful. (Well, you _did_ ask, so I thought I'd put in my 2 cents...) > > -ak- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 5 08:20:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j95FJt06013166; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 08:20:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j95FJsjI013149; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 08:19:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 08:19:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=jvSGVj040lNHgqZCIS1+pgHPCF3i1f9KaTyHs95CtiiEY/geFqxxrC/nV0RVlzyK; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22005103514182450 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Sealed Beam Tungsten-Halogen Headlamp OU Solar Collectors Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 09:18:24 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940ede9430ed22ab0e05becce5412eb5c6b350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.112 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63589 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Previously posted: > > The 1.56 eV Iodine-Iodine and 2.00 eV Bromine-Bromine bond and their bond to > evaporated Tungsten atoms is broken on the solar heated filament > Not ready yet to spend $6.85 for a PAR 38 (4.75 inch diameter 120 volt 120 watt) Tungsten-Halogen flood lamp; http://www.goodmart.com/products/33173.htm I pointed a 250 watt heat lamp at the sun coming through a double-pane window with a DVM hooked to the terminals. Surprisingly after a couple of minutes there wasn't any readable voltage, but there was a couple of microamps of current flow which dropped off as the filament cooled. Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Previously posted:
>
> The 1.56 eV Iodine-Iodine and 2.00 eV Bromine-Bromine bond and their bond to
> evaporated Tungsten atoms is broken on the solar heated filament
>
Not ready yet to spend $6.85 for a PAR 38 (4.75 inch diameter 120 volt 120 watt) Tungsten-Halogen
flood lamp;
 
I pointed a 250 watt heat lamp at the sun coming through a double-pane window
with a DVM hooked to the terminals.
 
Surprisingly after a couple of minutes there wasn't any readable voltage, but there was
a couple of microamps of current flow which dropped off as the filament cooled.
 
Frederick
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 5 08:31:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j95FUthL022758; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 08:31:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j95FUkRK022643; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 08:30:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 08:30:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Vortex" Subject: RE: Methyl Chloride Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 11:35:23 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <20051005145503.71D813E07 xprdmailfe6.nwk.excite.com> X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63590 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Mike, I'm glad you took some measurements, but I'm confused by your results. If you see no drop off from 1 to 5 miles inland, how do you know the results are coming from the ocean? Another source listed on the EPA site is burning biomass. I recall you've had quite a bit of that in the past few years/months/days? you wrote: >After spending a couple of night sweating whether I >was going to be evacuated, or worse yet, loosing the >new house I've been living in for only four months, >I began to wonder how many MW hours per acre were going >up in smoke. What's the level at your house now? K. -----Original Message----- From: Michael Foster [mailto:michael.foster excite.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 10:55 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Methyl Chloride Keith wrote: > Hi Michael, > Perhaps you should actually check what the EPA sez about Methyl Chloride? > http://www.epa.gov/ttn/atw/hlthef/methylch.html > Methinks you've been inhaling too much Vortex of recent, > it has a corrosive effect on common sense (grin). > K. I have read it. That's when I became suspicious of their giving specific numbers for industrial toxicity levels, but describing "low levels" in the natural environment. I have a portable gas chromatagraph. These things are really cool. They just attach to the bottom of a laptop computer and the program that comes with them identifies the peaks in the resulting graph. This is particularly nice for those of us who have forgotten most of our college chemistry. Normally, I would just leave the thing at work, but: Within a mile of the shore, I measured methyl choride levels greatly exceeding the EPA's industrial numbers. Five miles out, the level drops off slightly, but still the ocean would have to be shut down, according to the EPA. These measurements were made at five or six feet above the water line. Everything is toxic at some level. I'm afraid it's the EPA that needs a dose of common sense; theirs seems to have been corroded by a case of toxic chemophobia ;-} BTW, their are lots of volatile amines out there above the ocean. No doubt these exceed EPA permissible levels, too. M. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 5 08:46:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j95FjcY4004425; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 08:45:53 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j95FjPbp004126; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 08:45:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 08:45:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20051005082912.02a4bd88 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2005 08:38:31 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: 9 votes needed ASAP Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_1967491453==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63591 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_1967491453==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Good morning cold fusion fans! I just submitted a summary of my current cold fusion efforts and activities on SCISCOOP. As you may or may not know, stories will only go online if other users "vote" YES to post them. Won't you be so kind as to help out? http://www.sciscoop.com/ If you are not a member of SCISCOOP, you'd first need to join (free). Then, these steps: Login in. Click on MODERATE SUBMISSIONS (in the top right corner). Click on UPDATE FOR COLD FUSION FANS When you reach the end of my text, look in the center for a field named: "Your Vote" Choose "Post it to the front page" Click Vote and then accept my deep gratitude for your assistance and participation! Steve --=====================_1967491453==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Good morning cold fusion fans!

I just submitted a summary of my current cold fusion efforts and activities on SCISCOOP.
As you may or may not know, stories will only go online if other users "vote" YES to post them.
Won't you be so kind as to help out?

http://www.sciscoop.com/


If you are not a member of SCISCOOP, you'd first need to join (free).

Then, these steps:

Login in.
Click on MODERATE SUBMISSIONS (in the top right corner).
Click on UPDATE FOR COLD FUSION FANS
When you reach the end of my text, look in the center for a field named: "Your Vote"
Choose "Post it to the front page"
Click Vote

and then accept my deep gratitude for your assistance and participation!

Steve


--=====================_1967491453==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 5 08:59:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j95FwXFO022437; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 08:58:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j95FwQnK022317; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 08:58:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 08:58:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Methyl Chloride X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 909b8a8ff0cae19159d456a4b333f05c Reply-To: michael.foster excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20051005155800.405C5AFAEA xprdmailfe5.nwk.excite.com> Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 11:58:00 -0400 (EDT) Resent-Message-ID: <_s9lJD.A.RcF.hg_QDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63592 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Keith wrote: > I'm glad you took some measurements, but I'm confused > by your results. If you see no drop off from 1 > to 5 miles inland, how do you know the results are > coming from the ocean? Another source listed > on the EPA site is burning biomass. I recall you've > had quite a bit of that in the past few years/months/days? No, these measurements were taken out in the ocean, not inland. I could just be overly suspicious, but I think the EPA talks about other sources of methyl chloride just to obfuscate and trivialize the really large quantities made in the ocean. They just don't want to talk about it, I think, because someone might say that this is a really huge source of chlorinated hydrocarbon, so why did you bother to regulate CFCs out of existence? M. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 5 09:07:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j95G6U3o030347; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 09:06:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j95G6E3x030108; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 09:06:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 09:06:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] X-Originating-Email: [caliostro1795 hotmail.com] X-Sender: caliostro1795 hotmail.com From: "Alex Caliostro" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: cloromethane Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2005 10:05:40 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Oct 2005 16:05:40.0890 (UTC) FILETIME=[A2056FA0:01C5C9C6] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63593 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: here is the nordic view on CH3Cl which recognizes the source of cloromethane "It has been concluded that well over 90%, and perhaps as much as 99%, of ambient air concentrations on a global scale appear to originate from natural sources rather than from anthropogenic sources (ATSDR, 1998)." _____ -alex _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 5 09:09:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j95G96CM032469; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 09:09:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j95G8xDu032341; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 09:08:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 09:08:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4343FA7C.8010308 pobox.com> Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2005 12:08:28 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.10) Gecko/20050719 Fedora/1.7.10-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Islands of Ignorance References: <6.2.0.14.2.20051002121525.02980c70@mail.newenergytimes.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63594 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thomas, I've got a question or two about Ross. thomas malloy wrote: > Taking it one step further there is Ross's book Creator and the Cosmos. What's Ross's position on the age of the Earth? I _thought_ he was the young-Earth creationist and hydrologist who had attributed continent formation and lots of other stuff to the Genesis flood. Needless to say there are problems with that notion. But when I looked him up online, it appeared that he's actually over on the other side of the debate; in particular, he's credited with the "local flood" notion, which is a serious attempt to square the biblical account with history as we know it from extra-biblical sources. So, is he a hydrologist, as I thought? Just what _does_ he feel the flood did? I looked through the TOC of Creator and the Cosmos (Amazon has it on line); without looking at the actual book I can't tell what his positions are but he's apparently at least on speaking terms with a lot of mainstream science. > There are many conditions and physical constants: if any of them were > changed, life would be impossible. Inflation theory and the anthropic principle do a somewhat plausible job of explaining this. With the original Big Bang theory, on the other hand, it was hard to avoid the need for an intelligent First Cause. Have you read Hawking's Brief History of Time? It's very light (no math) but none the less quite interesting, as it's mostly a history-of-science book. In it, Hawking's discussing who thought what when, and why they thought it, rather than propounding a particular theory of everything. > It's not just an individual cell that's complicated, it's the whole > web of life, which collectively reverses entropy No it doesn't, no more so than lots of other reactions which reverse entropy _locally_. Pumping energy into a system allows you to reverse entropy within that system, but in that case it's not a closed system. If you close the system, so that no energy enters or leaves, then you find there's no net entropy reversal going on, and that's true of living systems as well as nonliving sytsems. There is nothing we currently know about life processes which violates the rules of ordinary chemistry, and ordinary chemical reactions (including those within living things) certainly obey the laws of thermodynamics as they are currently understood. In other words, biochemists do not need to resort to miraculous explanations to describe the functioning of cells. If the processes in living cells "reversed entropy" they would, indeed, need to be explained as an ongoing miracle (or we'd need to discard thermodynamics). If you want to see the source of the "entropy reversal" to which you refer look at any green plant. That's where the energy is coming into the system, and that's where simple molecules are being assembled into more complex, more organized, and more energetic forms. Cut off the sunlight and the whole system grinds to a halt. > both in concentrating solar energy into phytochemicals, it's the DNA. > It's a control system which resets itself through the sexual fusion > process. The biotechnicians were unable to come up with a function for > the majority of DNA, so they labeled it "junk DNA." What hubris! IMHO, > it acts as a receiver for a form of energy that we don't understand. > > We are threatening their religion, and they don't like it one little bit I don't know Park personally so I don't know whether that judgement of him is correct. I do, however, know that an awful lot of physicists who are _not_ pathological skeptics would be outraged at claims either that life as we know it violates the second law, or that the Earth was created just 6000 years ago. Claiming an intelligent "first cause" is something else again and is much harder to dismiss, but since the "intelligent first cause" hypothesis produces no testable predictions it can't really be classed as a "scientific theory". > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 5 09:23:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j95GLxGx010901; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 09:22:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j95GLuG2010829; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 09:21:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 09:21:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20051005091906.02a526b8 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2005 09:19:34 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: 4 votes in, 5 more needed - thanks In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20051005082912.02a4bd88 mail.newenergytimes.com > References: <6.2.0.14.2.20051005082912.02a4bd88 mail.newenergytimes.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63595 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: s From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 5 09:29:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j95GSWct016442; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 09:28:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j95GSTOY016360; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 09:28:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 09:28:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051005122723.040fdc80 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2005 12:27:51 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: A. C. Clarke plugs space elevators Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63596 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: More power to him. See: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,1072-1794500,00.html - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 5 09:32:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j95GV6Tp018688; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 09:31:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j95GU84T017587; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 09:30:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 09:30:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=h+/UJYiip0jQTb7nalZoy2Jwy/NXmMF2uhzzhyKws+qb/eIWFaFf+eIFfCYrAnlK; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220051035152721810 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Sealed Beam Tungsten-Halogen Headlamp OU Solar Collectors Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 10:27:21 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9402ed4143cc9747faf450df35dbcf3665b350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.159.63 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63597 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Make that 4.0 microamps at 200 microvolts as the filament went from 5.2 ohms cold to ~ 6.5 ohms facing the sun. FJS ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 10/5/05 10:20:10 AM Subject: Re: Sealed Beam Tungsten-Halogen Headlamp OU Solar Collectors Previously posted: > > The 1.56 eV Iodine-Iodine and 2.00 eV Bromine-Bromine bond and their bond to > evaporated Tungsten atoms is broken on the solar heated filament > Not ready yet to spend $6.85 for a PAR 38 (4.75 inch diameter 120 volt 120 watt) Tungsten-Halogen flood lamp; http://www.goodmart.com/products/33173.htm I pointed a 250 watt heat lamp at the sun coming through a double-pane window with a DVM hooked to the terminals. Surprisingly after a couple of minutes there wasn't any readable voltage, but there was a couple of microamps of current flow which dropped off as the filament cooled. Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Make that 4.0 microamps at 200 microvolts as the filament
went from 5.2 ohms cold to ~ 6.5 ohms facing the sun.
 
FJS
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 10/5/05 10:20:10 AM
Subject: Re: Sealed Beam Tungsten-Halogen Headlamp OU Solar Collectors

Previously posted:
>
> The 1.56 eV Iodine-Iodine and 2.00 eV Bromine-Bromine bond and their bond to
> evaporated Tungsten atoms is broken on the solar heated filament
>
Not ready yet to spend $6.85 for a PAR 38 (4.75 inch diameter 120 volt 120 watt) Tungsten-Halogen
flood lamp;
 
I pointed a 250 watt heat lamp at the sun coming through a double-pane window
with a DVM hooked to the terminals.
 
Surprisingly after a couple of minutes there wasn't any readable voltage, but there was
a couple of microamps of current flow which dropped off as the filament cooled.
 
Frederick
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 5 09:53:54 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j95GqvcT011237; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 09:53:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j95Gqqsa011176; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 09:52:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 09:52:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] X-Originating-Email: [caliostro1795 hotmail.com] X-Sender: caliostro1795 hotmail.com In-Reply-To: From: "Alex Caliostro" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: cloromethane Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2005 10:52:22 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Oct 2005 16:52:22.0836 (UTC) FILETIME=[281C7740:01C5C9CD] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63599 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >From: "Alex Caliostro" >here is the nordic view on CH3Cl which recognizes the source of >cloromethane > >"It has been concluded that well over 90%, and perhaps as much as 99%, of >ambient air concentrations on a global scale appear to originate from >natural sources rather than from anthropogenic sources (ATSDR, 1998)." oops, forgot the url http://www.inchem.org/documents/cicads/cicads/cicad28.htm _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 5 09:57:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j95GuOGM014225; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 09:56:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j95GuHRq014054; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 09:56:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 09:56:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=btK7+rPblJoPUqYmGlyn0NL8vez3pEE+c+er846eqJnDuuJvyGUcI27qZGardyRP; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220051035155440790 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: RE: Methyl Chloride Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 10:54:40 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94020486de21febac90502e728839838dc6350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.165.33 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63600 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Keith Nagel wrote: >> > I'm also sure that the burning biomass in your backyard > has released a slew of toxic chemicals. Should we > revise the numbers to make these levels acceptable because > they occur in nature? I do agree that folks are generally > paranoid about chemical exposure, but if animal studies > show harm with low concentrations then harm will > be caused by low concentrations, regardless of the source. > I think most household CO detectors have a lower limit of 50 ppm which is just above the background CO level in most cities. :-) Frederick > K. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Foster [mailto:michael.foster excite.com] > Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 11:58 AM > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Subject: RE: Methyl Chloride > > > > Keith wrote: > > > I'm glad you took some measurements, but I'm confused > > by your results. If you see no drop off from 1 > > to 5 miles inland, how do you know the results are > > coming from the ocean? Another source listed > > on the EPA site is burning biomass. I recall you've > > had quite a bit of that in the past few years/months/days? > > No, these measurements were taken out in the ocean, not > inland. I could just be overly suspicious, but I think > the EPA talks about other sources of methyl chloride just > to obfuscate and trivialize the really large quantities > made in the ocean. They just don't want to talk about it, > I think, because someone might say that this is a really > huge source of chlorinated hydrocarbon, so why did you > bother to regulate CFCs out of existence? > > M. > > > _______________________________________________ > Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com > The most personalized portal on the Web! > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 5 10:02:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j95H0D7S017421; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 10:01:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j95Ga5Fh025361; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 09:36:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 09:36:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Vortex" Subject: RE: Methyl Chloride Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 12:37:23 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <20051005155800.405C5AFAEA xprdmailfe5.nwk.excite.com> X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63598 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hey Mike, So presumably as you go inland, the levels drop off. How fast do they do so? And what numbers did you measure? To be clear, most sources ( including the EPA ) back your claim. Here for example, the evil socialists of Sweden (grin) say... >Methyl chloride (CAS No. 74-87-3) is released mainly to air >during its production and use and by incineration of municipal >and industrial wastes. How ever, natural sources, primarily >oceans and biomass burning, clearly dominate over anthropogenic sources. http://www.inchem.org/documents/cicads/cicads/cicad28.htm I'm also sure that the burning biomass in your backyard has released a slew of toxic chemicals. Should we revise the numbers to make these levels acceptable because they occur in nature? I do agree that folks are generally paranoid about chemical exposure, but if animal studies show harm with low concentrations then harm will be caused by low concentrations, regardless of the source. K. -----Original Message----- From: Michael Foster [mailto:michael.foster excite.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 11:58 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Methyl Chloride Keith wrote: > I'm glad you took some measurements, but I'm confused > by your results. If you see no drop off from 1 > to 5 miles inland, how do you know the results are > coming from the ocean? Another source listed > on the EPA site is burning biomass. I recall you've > had quite a bit of that in the past few years/months/days? No, these measurements were taken out in the ocean, not inland. I could just be overly suspicious, but I think the EPA talks about other sources of methyl chloride just to obfuscate and trivialize the really large quantities made in the ocean. They just don't want to talk about it, I think, because someone might say that this is a really huge source of chlorinated hydrocarbon, so why did you bother to regulate CFCs out of existence? M. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 5 10:06:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j95H66ox022664; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 10:06:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j95H5sFv022385; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 10:05:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 10:05:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <434407C9.8070502 pobox.com> Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2005 13:05:13 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.10) Gecko/20050719 Fedora/1.7.10-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Islands of Ignorance References: <6.2.0.14.2.20051002121525.02980c70@mail.newenergytimes.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63601 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: > I posted and > > Steve Krivit replied > >>> Ignorance, eh? How about information science? IMHO, the islands of >>> ignorance map should have the U of Maryland in bright red. >> >> >> >> Thomas, >> >> Why? Because of his antics with CF? > > > [ ... ]Then there is his [Parks'] attacks on my right to purchase > herbs. Do I want the Parksie retirement fund to pay for them? No. Is > my taking herbs going to affect his health? No. But he's from the > government, and he's here to help! Spare me. Then there is his attacks > on energy medicine, a subject of which he has less understanding than > does a pig about Easter. All I know is that I have used homeopathic > preparations three times, and it was symptoms gone three out of three. > If someone would give me a few million $, I'd love to run a study, is > that going to happen? don't hold your breath. There have been quite a number of studies of herbal and homeopathic remedies ... in Europe. In fact, some herbal remedies are approved for general use, declared safe, regulated, and are commonly known to work and may even be prescribed by ordinary doctors ... in Europe. In the U.S., in contrast, medicine tends to be tightly regulated by the mainstream MDs (and, of course, the drug companies), and (presumably!) in consequence, herbal and homeopathic remedies seem to get quite a bit less attention. Socialized medicine is certainly not perfect (witness the current problems in France, for instance) but if nothing else, it encourages governments to pay careful attention to inexpensive alternatives. In contrast, in this country, nobody in power has any financial incentive to carefully examine "do-it-yourself medicine". Some homeopathic remedies have been shown to work as well as or better than conventional treatment. As far as I know, nobody has a clue why (or at any rate, I sure don't understand why they work) since, unlike the situation with "convention herbal medicine", the doses in homeopathy are set low enough to have no effect (according to conventional theory). From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 5 10:30:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j95HU4Vv013607; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 10:30:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j95HMtgm007874; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 10:22:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 10:22:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051005131258.03efdeb0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2005 13:22:03 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: Methyl Chloride In-Reply-To: References: <20051005155800.405C5AFAEA xprdmailfe5.nwk.excite.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63602 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Keith Nagel wrote: >I'm also sure that the burning biomass in your backyard >has released a slew of toxic chemicals. Darn right. My backyard used to have a lot poison ivy. Burn that, and you can cause very serious reactions "far downwind" according to the NIH. Just because something occurs naturally, that does not make it safe or acceptable. In August 1986, Lake Nyos in West Africa released approximately one cubic kilometer of CO2, killing at least 1,700 people by asphyxiation. (Lately there have been signs that it may do that again.) - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 5 10:31:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j95HVG9i014355; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 10:31:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j95HVFIV014316; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 10:31:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 10:31:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Subject: RE: Methyl Chloride Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 12:30:47 -0500 Message-ID: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50A1CF94D CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Methyl Chloride thread-index: AcXJzpKD/ZQFVNnzTNmAYgiIwNneGwAAzhAg From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Oct 2005 17:30:48.0163 (UTC) FILETIME=[86317330:01C5C9D2] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j95HUu76014107 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63603 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: And remember, silica can be dangerous. Good heavens, beaches are full of the stuff. And many fruit seeds contain cyanide. And airplane rides expose you to radiation. And so it goes....... -----Original Message----- From: Keith Nagel [mailto:knagel gis.net] Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 12:37 PM To: Vortex Subject: RE: Methyl Chloride Hey Mike, So presumably as you go inland, the levels drop off. How fast do they do so? And what numbers did you measure? To be clear, most sources ( including the EPA ) back your claim. Here for example, the evil socialists of Sweden (grin) say... >Methyl chloride (CAS No. 74-87-3) is released mainly to air during its >production and use and by incineration of municipal and industrial >wastes. How ever, natural sources, primarily oceans and biomass >burning, clearly dominate over anthropogenic sources. http://www.inchem.org/documents/cicads/cicads/cicad28.htm I'm also sure that the burning biomass in your backyard has released a slew of toxic chemicals. Should we revise the numbers to make these levels acceptable because they occur in nature? I do agree that folks are generally paranoid about chemical exposure, but if animal studies show harm with low concentrations then harm will be caused by low concentrations, regardless of the source. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 5 10:51:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j95Hoelw031172; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 10:50:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j95Hnn0U030702; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 10:49:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 10:49:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] X-Originating-Email: [caliostro1795 hotmail.com] X-Sender: caliostro1795 hotmail.com In-Reply-To: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50A1CF94D CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> From: "Alex Caliostro" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Methyl Chloride Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2005 11:49:21 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Oct 2005 17:49:21.0697 (UTC) FILETIME=[1DE94110:01C5C9D5] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63604 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >From: "Zell, Chris" >And remember, silica can be dangerous. Good heavens, beaches are full >of the stuff. not to mention the thousands that die every year breathing dihydrogen oxide _____ -alex _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 5 11:26:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j95IPqX3027706; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 11:26:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j95IPjQD027625; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 11:25:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 11:25:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Methyl Chloride X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 909b8a8ff0cae19159d456a4b333f05c Reply-To: michael.foster excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20051005182503.704DD299E3 xprdmailfe22.nwk.excite.com> Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 14:25:03 -0400 (EDT) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63605 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Keith wrote: > So presumably as you go inland, the levels drop off. > How fast do they do so? And what numbers did you measure? I never made any inland measurements. I just got a bug up my *** one day when I was taking my boat out and took the chromatagraph with me. I was damn lucky I didn't drop it over the side. I'll have to fire up the old air sucker again to see what I can measure inland. I wish I'd thought of it when the fires were burning and the air around my house was difficult to breathe. I have to keep the chromatagraph attached to its original laptop running Win98. When I try to run it on a later operating system, I get some strange error relating to clock speed. Hope it still functions well. > To be clear, most sources ( including the EPA ) back > your claim. Here for example, the evil socialists of Sweden (grin) say... >>Methyl chloride (CAS No. 74-87-3) is released mainly to air >>during its production and use and by incineration of municipal >>and industrial wastes. How ever, natural sources, primarily >oceans and biomass burning, clearly dominate over anthropogenic sources. >http://www.inchem.org/documents/cicads/cicads/cicad28.htm > I'm also sure that the burning biomass in your backyard > has released a slew of toxic chemicals. Should we > revise the numbers to make these levels acceptable because > they occur in nature? I do agree that folks are generally > paranoid about chemical exposure, but if animal studies > show harm with low concentrations then harm will > be caused by low concentrations, regardless of the source. You point out why I'm so concerned with this. Methyl chloride, while I have no use for it, has become my personal poster boy for why environmental extremists and government agencies have got it all wrong. There are serious toxic substances about that need highly watchful regulation. But you can't do a good job of it if you try to act as if everything is dangerous. Case in point, if you buy sodium chloride from a chemical company, it comes with an MSDS sheet, ditto SiO2. If vast government agencies and industrial enterprises have to waste time and resources telling us that salt and sand are dangerous, there's precious little left to address real problems. Furthermore, this sort of thing is a needless drain on the economy and yet another source of income for lawyers. BTW, Keith, good to know you're still lurkin' out there. M. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 5 11:44:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j95IhNiE009620; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 11:43:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j95IhJqi009504; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 11:43:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 11:43:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051005133716.04b607c0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2005 14:36:32 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Park picks easy targets In-Reply-To: <4343EEB9.5040507 pobox.com> References: <410-220051024193110590 ix.netcom.com> <4343EEB9.5040507 pobox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63606 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >. . . I find [Park's] little newsletter to be frequently entertaining >and/or informative. Me too. I enjoy the Scientific American too, despite their harsh attitude toward cold fusion and the fact that there editor is a fool. (See http://lenr-canr.org/AppealandSciAm.pdf) > _Most_ things he's skeptical about appear to deserve it (again, much > like Randi). Yup. But that is because he picks easy targets, and even when he does he often makes dumb mistakes because he is lazy, and does not do his homework. For example, he opposes the Space Shuttle. Many scientists agree. Richard Feynman wrote about his role in the investigation of Challenger explosion: "In the newspapers I used to read about shuttles going up and down all the time, but it bothered me a little bit that I never saw in any scientific journal any results of anything that had ever come out of the experiments on the shuttle that were supposed to be so important. So I wasn't paying much attention to it." Park is safe attacking the shuttle. He may not be in the majority, but he knows that many powerful decision-makers are with him. I do not think he has ever attacked a stupid idea that has universal support, such as ethanol fuel from corn. He is full of false bravado, thinking himself a daring iconoclast when he is only parroting the views of powerful people. Park has only surface knowledge of the shuttle; he does not even realize how bad it is. He recently endorsed the idea of flying one more mission to repair the Hubble space telescope. Apparently he does not realize that one shuttle mission costs far more than it would cost to fabricate and launch a brand-new Hubble. (See "The Hubble Wars.") The so-called rescue mission that was performed previously was nothing more than a dangerous publicity stunt. Its purpose was to rescue the shuttle, not the telescope. (Note that it would cost much more to design, fabricate and launch a brand-new, improved telescope. It would be cheap to launch another copy of the old design.) Park has opposed all manned exploration. I suppose that a sensible given the extreme expense and danger of present-day technology, but a space elevator would change everything. It would reduce the cost by a factor of 1,000 right off the bat. But I do not think Park has mentioned the space elevator. He is good at denigrating things but he does not propose any new ideas, or daring initiatives. His idea of space exploration is to keep repeating robot planetary exploration with chemical rockets. I am all in favor of robot exploration -- who wouldn't be? -- but far more could be done with an elevator. Or even with cheaper, more reliable rockets. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 5 12:03:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j95J2o77029179; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 12:03:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j95J2n8h029153; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 12:02:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 12:02:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051005143857.04b66310 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2005 15:01:16 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: Methyl Chloride In-Reply-To: <20051005182503.704DD299E3 xprdmailfe22.nwk.excite.com> References: <20051005182503.704DD299E3 xprdmailfe22.nwk.excite.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63607 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michael Foster wrote: >There are serious toxic substances about that need >highly watchful regulation. But you can't do a good job of it if >you try to act as if everything is dangerous. Case in point, if >you buy sodium chloride from a chemical company, it comes with an >MSDS sheet, ditto SiO2. That's true, of course. On the other hand, most accidents are caused by ordinary non-dangerous stuff that is been misused by stupid people. Eating too much salt kills millions of people from high blood pressure. A package of plain salt says, "this salt does not supply iodide, necessary nutrient." That is vital information for people living in geographical areas without a natural iodide in the drinking water. An electrician friend of mine says that OSHA rules are common sense written down. Anyone who does not know them has no business using a screwdriver. Yet thousands of people do not know them, do not follow them, and end up killing or seriously injuring themselves every year. I used to work at a factory where I filled out the health claim and accident report forms. It was the same small group of idiots who hurt themselves every month by climbing a ladder set on a packing crate balanced on sawhorses. >If vast government agencies and industrial enterprises have to waste time >and resources telling us that salt and sand are dangerous, there's >precious little left to address real problems. I expect sand kills more people than most industrial raw materials, because it is so widely used. It is ground up by many machines and sanders, which causes silicosis. In Japan, where they use more concrete every year than the US does (!!!) accidents with sand are common. People get buried, suffocated, and so on. They handle large amounts using substandard equipment and sloppy procedures that would turn your hair gray. I knew a fellow who was loading sand and he managed to drive the bulldozer backward off a cliff. A big cliff, maybe 50 meters tall, straight into the ocean. He survived! I have seen factories in Japan and China that would give any U.S. or European inspector fits. It makes you appreciate our high standards. Read the history of the Tokaimura nuclear accident. A friend of mine in Japan who has connections to the nuclear industry says he gets the feeling the place was staffed by ex-cons and high school dropouts. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 5 12:32:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j95JVkD5020657; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 12:32:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j95JVbN8020497; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 12:31:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 12:31:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Vortex" Subject: RE: Methyl Chloride Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 15:36:15 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <20051005182503.704DD299E3 xprdmailfe22.nwk.excite.com> X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63608 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hey Mike, I had a similar experience to you when I got a rad counter. I was pretty surprised to find fireplaces had 3-5X background level of radiation, prolly exceeding NRC regs. It was explained to me that trees concentrate airborne radioactive particles from rain, and being heavy they tend to concentrate in the fireplace on burning of the wood. I hold Fred Sparber personally responsible for that enviromental debacle (grin). You and your atomic weapons, Fred, sheesh. Now my mom has an unlicensed nuclear reactor in her living room. I've been lurking some after a big development push in summer. I know what you mean about the MSDS, when I used to order chemicals I got a nice stack of 'em. Kind of silly, but I've come to find that there are so many idiots out there, that people do in fact need to be told in grotesque detail about the risks associated with this stuff. I think we both can agree that the real issue is quantifying risk, and acting accordingly. Clearly you have a point that the low exposure numbers aren't very realistic when compared to the natural production. As you say, I wish they would focus on more pressing problems, but you must concede that industry has a disproportionate effect on EPA legislation than the birky and sock crowd. Follow the money. K. -----Original Message----- From: Michael Foster [mailto:michael.foster excite.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 2:25 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Methyl Chloride Keith wrote: > So presumably as you go inland, the levels drop off. > How fast do they do so? And what numbers did you measure? I never made any inland measurements. I just got a bug up my *** one day when I was taking my boat out and took the chromatagraph with me. I was damn lucky I didn't drop it over the side. I'll have to fire up the old air sucker again to see what I can measure inland. I wish I'd thought of it when the fires were burning and the air around my house was difficult to breathe. I have to keep the chromatagraph attached to its original laptop running Win98. When I try to run it on a later operating system, I get some strange error relating to clock speed. Hope it still functions well. > To be clear, most sources ( including the EPA ) back > your claim. Here for example, the evil socialists of Sweden (grin) say... >>Methyl chloride (CAS No. 74-87-3) is released mainly to air >>during its production and use and by incineration of municipal >>and industrial wastes. How ever, natural sources, primarily >oceans and biomass burning, clearly dominate over anthropogenic sources. >http://www.inchem.org/documents/cicads/cicads/cicad28.htm > I'm also sure that the burning biomass in your backyard > has released a slew of toxic chemicals. Should we > revise the numbers to make these levels acceptable because > they occur in nature? I do agree that folks are generally > paranoid about chemical exposure, but if animal studies > show harm with low concentrations then harm will > be caused by low concentrations, regardless of the source. You point out why I'm so concerned with this. Methyl chloride, while I have no use for it, has become my personal poster boy for why environmental extremists and government agencies have got it all wrong. There are serious toxic substances about that need highly watchful regulation. But you can't do a good job of it if you try to act as if everything is dangerous. Case in point, if you buy sodium chloride from a chemical company, it comes with an MSDS sheet, ditto SiO2. If vast government agencies and industrial enterprises have to waste time and resources telling us that salt and sand are dangerous, there's precious little left to address real problems. Furthermore, this sort of thing is a needless drain on the economy and yet another source of income for lawyers. BTW, Keith, good to know you're still lurkin' out there. M. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 5 12:46:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j95JjKsp031879; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 12:45:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j95JjH36031813; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 12:45:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 12:45:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Subject: RE: Methyl Chloride Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 14:44:50 -0500 Message-ID: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50A1CFA5F CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Methyl Chloride thread-index: AcXJ34Og9g6XG2kZTKOssRqJI2ET2QAA2kAg From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Oct 2005 19:44:51.0618 (UTC) FILETIME=[40774820:01C5C9E5] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j95JitS4031478 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63609 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:JedRothwell mindspring.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 3:01 PM To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: RE: Methyl Chlori Read the history of the Tokaimura nuclear accident. A friend of mine in Japan who has connections to the nuclear industry says he gets the feeling the place was staffed by ex-cons and high school dropouts. - Jed Because of Asian customs regarding honor and saving face, not all there is as it first seems. The popularity of manga style books, even for businessmen, does not always say good things about literacy there. Low statistics on sexual assault in Japan have also been criticized as lacking credibility due to the way victims are treated. Japan is headed for deep trouble as they have recently begun to lose net workers, net male population - and most recently, net total population, during the first six months of this year ( two years ahead of predicted schedule). Actually, that trend may be the scariest of all in the developed world - they build up debts while the collective birth rate plunges, eliminating the potential people who would pay down the national debts. Oops! Sorry! This is far afield from heat engine fluids! It's gonna get interesting........... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 5 12:51:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j95JoeO5003409; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 12:50:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j95JoVBi003305; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 12:50:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 12:50:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: Methyl Chloride Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 14:49:59 -0500 Message-ID: <000001c5c9e5$f890cc60$5c5e10ac eDentsply.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <20051005024930.D4B6FC0C6E xprdmailfe25.nwk.excite.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j95Jo3dn003066 Resent-Message-ID: <0nE8fC.A.Uz.D6CRDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63611 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Supports a half-baked hypothesis of mine regarding the folks on the left and right coasts... The methyl chloride, which penetrates the cranial encapsulant easily, may open the diode junctions to atmospheric attack. 8^) -----Original Message----- From: Michael Foster [mailto:michael.foster excite.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 9:50 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Methyl Chloride Fred wrote: > If you are referring to the Hero Engine the calculator > gives ammonia as well as Methyl Chloride CH3Cl. Either > should do okay in Green's "steam engine" too but I don't think you > want to mess with it or Methyl Chloride!. :-( Now Fred, you shouldna got me started. Usually, outfits like the EPA and others try to avoid any serious discussion of methyl chloride. 'Cause if they do, somebody who knows what he's talking about is going to shout, "Bullshit!" Methyl chloride is produced in such massive quantities by the ocean that if the entire industrial enterprise of the human race were devoted to making nothing but methyl chloride, it wouldn't even be that metaphorical drop in the bucket. Ever wonder why the ocean smells like the ocean? Yes, it's methyl choride, and in quantities the EPA wouldn't approve. Exactly which environment are they trying to protect? Next time you go to the beach, take a deep invigorating breath and say to yourself, "Mmmm, now that's some of the best methyl chloride I've ever smelled." All that phytoplankton busy at work "polluting" the environment is a sight to behold, microscopically speaking. BTW, I drive the Pacific Coast Highway to work every morning and I've noticed all the traffic signals with LEDs have begun to have faulty and failing individual parts. This doesn't seem to happen inland. I've a half-baked hypothesis that the methyl chloride, which penetrates the acrylic-styrene encapsulant easily, might have opened the diode junction to atmospheric attack. Anyway, this makes funny flickering patterns in the green lights, standing flamingos and other oddments of my imagination. M. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 5 12:51:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j95Jopp6003563; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 12:51:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j95JocMM003382; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 12:50:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 12:50:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: Robert Green steam engine vs Hero's Engine Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 14:49:59 -0500 Message-ID: <000101c5c9e5$f907f830$5c5e10ac eDentsply.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <410-22005102420332780 earthlink.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j95Jo3hX003075 Resent-Message-ID: <8u-jHC.A.Pz.C6CRDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63610 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Could just be how I am looking at it, but aren't these rotary to linear designs? Don't see how it would the other direction (unless the piston axis were at an angle to the rotation shaft). That looks to be the Green patent, bi-axial force tied to a rotating member. -john -----Original Message----- From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net] Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 3:33 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Robert Green steam engine vs Hero's Engine John Steck wrote: > > The novelty of the green engine is the wobble connection conversion of > linear to rotary, not the steam part. The prime mover could easily be > switched out with a 2 cylinder sterling configuration. > > The question that needs to be asked is not the efficiency of the > system, but > the durability. There looks like there would be a great deal of axial > loading on the flywheel bearing, excess vibration overall, and > significant cycling of the flex member. What's appealing about it is > the linear piston > action and no crankcase. The wobble plate and swash plate linear to rotary devices have been around for eons in air powered devices etc. http://www.animatedsoftware.com/pumpglos/swashpla.htm A bit more reliable I'd say Frederick > > -john > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: OrionWorks [mailto:orionworks charter.net] > Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 2:44 PM > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Cc: orionworks charter.net > Subject: Re: Robert Green steam engine vs Hero's Engine > > > How does Robert Green's novel steam engine configuration compare to > the efficiency of a good sterling engine? > > Regards, > Steven Vincent Johnson > www.OrionWorks.com > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 5 13:04:54 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j95K3xnA013639; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 13:04:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j95K3wg3013619; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 13:03:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 13:03:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20051005130138.02a66df0 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2005 13:01:56 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: 0 more votes needed Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63612 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Thanks everybody :) Great teamwork! Steve From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 5 13:25:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j95KOXcZ028236; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 13:24:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j95KOR0H028173; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 13:24:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 13:24:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051005162120.03f2a3d0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2005 16:23:57 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: US scientists resurrect deadly 1918 flu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63613 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Viral fragments pieced together. Astounding! Shades of Jurassic Park. Ulp! See: http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn8103 - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 5 13:48:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j95KlScm015479; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 13:47:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j95KlHbf015289; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 13:47:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 13:47:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] X-Originating-Email: [caliostro1795 hotmail.com] X-Sender: caliostro1795 hotmail.com From: "Alex Caliostro" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Off Topic: Not Sure of the Script Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2005 14:46:49 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Oct 2005 20:46:49.0625 (UTC) FILETIME=[E8922090:01C5C9ED] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63614 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: i know tom and richard often post on esoteric issues -- i oft see frank quote from the latin bible i was wonderin if you cant believe scriptsure on what do you base belief "Catholic Church no longer swears by truth of the Bible By Ruth Gledhill, Religion Correspondent THE hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church has published a teaching document instructing the faithful that some parts of the Bible are not actually true. The Catholic bishops of England, Wales and Scotland are warning their five million worshippers, as well as any others drawn to the study of scripture, that they should not expect “total accuracy” from the Bible." continued at http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13509-1811332,00.html _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 5 14:48:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j95LlqOo028943; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 14:48:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j95Llo2G028882; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 14:47:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 14:47:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: John Fields To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Off Topic: Not Sure of the Script Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2005 16:40:30 -0500 Organization: Austin Instruments, Inc Message-ID: <4rh8k1p3v1qcfcqp7nq43e5443dvjfcs2u 4ax.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63615 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 05 Oct 2005 14:46:49 -0600, you wrote: >i know tom and richard often post on esoteric issues -- i oft see frank >quote from the latin bible > >i was wonderin if you cant believe scriptsure on what do you base belief > >"Catholic Church no longer swears by truth of the Bible >By Ruth Gledhill, Religion Correspondent > >THE hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church has published a teaching document >instructing the faithful that some parts of the Bible are not actually true. > >The Catholic bishops of England, Wales and Scotland are warning their five >million worshippers, as well as any others drawn to the study of scripture, >that they should not expect “total accuracy” from the Bible." > >continued at > >http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13509-1811332,00.html > >_________________________________________________________________ >Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! >http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ --- What's your point, and why are you advertising MSN Messenger? -- John Fields Professional Circuit Designer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 5 15:22:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j95MLqQ0023007; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 15:22:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j95MLklm022909; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 15:21:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 15:21:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=tBxjRbyTK1AfkuQaQ1o5Uqj1/DSbM9M1gcf3wtNG3tW4RsYt0/TZ22NE+kwVh81M/joK0VyVM+8S9POTqkz4dAfT/gvpryZQXNCctPlgEYmKqBOt4EYc25lRLeo/jIO2d0UUDGoN4Y3GFWdMi74gg3VK7z29S0jhVgOMZGsdfIo= ; Message-ID: <20051005222116.49719.qmail web35008.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 15:21:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Rhong Dhong Subject: DP and Coal. What's The Story? To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63616 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Depolymerization supposedly makes oil out of just about anything. How does DP compare in this respect with other methods to process oil shale into oil? Would it be possible to turn out the oil from it much faster and with simpler processing than with corncobs and turkey guts? Hell, the stuff is mostly oil to start with. Maybe mines wouldn't produce coal, but oil, with a mini-DP plant at every mine. __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 5 16:01:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j95N0QsS017307; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 16:00:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j95MO65R024912; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 15:24:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 15:24:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=IMcVo9krGKxC2Qq8BT+sxNdoJFGV6nGLc6C1LLy7k1HNTDUSVzNQ/9rIuRZAZpyajchhV1gsw46AqVbGWBzCUwtG6WZXf4sL6/Omc83v4gNK6xFlL2SZ1sfAn/idAS6KRUvO/c1BHzEwalgKTFIl7tcq8IYnV3WnMnaTFOI4oA4= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 15:23:35 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Off Topic: Not Sure of the Script In-Reply-To: <4rh8k1p3v1qcfcqp7nq43e5443dvjfcs2u 4ax.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_20132_31679632.1128551015053" References: <4rh8k1p3v1qcfcqp7nq43e5443dvjfcs2u 4ax.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63617 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ------=_Part_20132_31679632.1128551015053 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline because hes got a hotmail account. same as those with yahoo accounts are advertising for katrina relief right now. On 10/5/05, John Fields wrote: > > On Wed, 05 Oct 2005 14:46:49 -0600, you wrote: > > >i know tom and richard often post on esoteric issues -- i oft see frank > >quote from the latin bible > > > >i was wonderin if you cant believe scriptsure on what do you base belief > > > >"Catholic Church no longer swears by truth of the Bible > >By Ruth Gledhill, Religion Correspondent > > > >THE hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church has published a teaching > document > >instructing the faithful that some parts of the Bible are not actually > true. > > > >The Catholic bishops of England, Wales and Scotland are warning their > five > >million worshippers, as well as any others drawn to the study of > scripture, > >that they should not expect "total accuracy" from the Bible." > > > >continued at > > > >http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13509-1811332,00.html > > > >_________________________________________________________________ > >Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's > FREE! > >http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ > > --- > What's your point, and why are you advertising MSN Messenger? > > > > -- > John Fields > Professional Circuit Designer > > -- "Monsieur l'abb=E9, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to ma= ke it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire ------=_Part_20132_31679632.1128551015053 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline because hes got a hotmail account.  same as those with yahoo accounts = are advertising for katrina relief right now.

On 10/5/05, = John Fields <jfield= s austininstruments.com> wrote:
On Wed, 05 Oct 2005 14:46:49 -06= 00, you wrote:

>i know tom and richard often post on esoteric iss= ues -- i oft see frank
>quote from the latin bible
>
>i was wonderin if you can= t believe scriptsure on what do you base belief
>
>"Cathol= ic Church no longer swears by truth of the Bible
>By Ruth Gledhill, R= eligion Correspondent
>
>THE hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church has published a = teaching document
>instructing the faithful that some parts of the Bi= ble are not actually true.
>
>The Catholic bishops of England, = Wales and Scotland are warning their five
>million worshippers, as well as any others drawn to the study of sc= ripture,
>that they should not expect "total accuracy" from the Bible= ."
>
>continued at
>
> http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13509-1811332,00.html
>>_________________________________________________________________
= >Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FR= EE!
>http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/

---
What's your point, and why are you advertising MSN Messenge= r?



--
John Fields
Professional Circuit Designer

<= /blockquote>



--
"Monsieur l'abb=E9,= I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for = you to continue to write"  Voltaire=20 ------=_Part_20132_31679632.1128551015053-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 5 18:18:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j961Hq3A010139; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 18:18:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j961HADh009811; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 18:17:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 18:17:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [68.158.1.60] X-Originating-Email: [caliostro1795 hotmail.com] X-Sender: caliostro1795 hotmail.com In-Reply-To: <4rh8k1p3v1qcfcqp7nq43e5443dvjfcs2u 4ax.com> From: "Alex Caliostro" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Off Topic: Not Sure of the Script Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2005 19:16:53 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Oct 2005 01:16:53.0341 (UTC) FILETIME=[A2BCF8D0:01C5CA13] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63618 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >From: John Fields >What's your point, and why are you advertising MSN Messenger? >John Fields >Professional Circuit Designer i have a msn hotmail account and have no control over the attachments your good friend mr gates attaches to my email warmest regards, _____ -alex _________________________________________________________________ Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee® Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 5 19:03:21 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j96231j8032712; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 19:03:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9622qCj032636; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 19:02:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 19:02:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <434485B0.2040200 pobox.com> Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2005 22:02:24 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.10) Gecko/20050719 Fedora/1.7.10-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Off Topic: Not Sure of the Script References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63619 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Alex Caliostro wrote: > i know tom and richard often post on esoteric issues -- i oft see > frank quote from the latin bible > > i was wonderin if you cant believe scriptsure on what do you base belief > > "Catholic Church no longer swears by truth of the Bible > By Ruth Gledhill, Religion Correspondent > > THE hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church has published a teaching > document instructing the faithful that some parts of the Bible are not > actually true. This is nothing new. The Catholic Church has never held that the bible is "inerrant", which is the way the belief that every word of it is true is usually described. As far as I know, none of the mainstream protestant sects hold the Bible to be inerrant, either -- it's only when you get into the pentacostalists, the evangelicals, and the charismatic sects that you find a widespread belief that every word of it is truth (and Judas hanged himself but the rope broke and so he fell and burst his guts, too, and locusts in Moses's time really did have four legs, and the world really was created in seven days just 6,000 years ago, and so forth... did Noah include dinosaurs on the arc? If not, why not? (Did he include bedbugs? Why??) And what about those 50,000,000 species of rainforest insects, many of whom don't swim too well -- where did Noah find space for them, and how did he put them all back afterwards? I mean, they're scattered all over tropical South America, which isn't very close to Mount Ararat. And what, exactly, was different about water before the Flood, such that sunshine on raindrops would not form a rainbow? One encounters many little puzzles if one tries to read it all as literally true.) Indeed, as I understand it, in the Middle Ages, the Catholic church did not allow ordinary church members to read the bible directly, on the grounds that it needed some interpretation to avoid misunderstanding it. > > The Catholic bishops of England, Wales and Scotland are warning their > five million worshippers, as well as any others drawn to the study of > scripture, that they should not expect “total accuracy” from the Bible." > > continued at > > http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13509-1811332,00.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 5 19:15:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j962EqfE005101; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 19:15:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j962EpCd005092; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 19:14:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 19:14:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2005 22:13:04 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Off Topic: Not Sure of the Script In-reply-to: <434485B0.2040200 pobox.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63620 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Has a bible ever been published with some sort of disclaimer? Harry Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > > Alex Caliostro wrote: > >> i know tom and richard often post on esoteric issues -- i oft see >> frank quote from the latin bible >> >> i was wonderin if you cant believe scriptsure on what do you base belief >> >> "Catholic Church no longer swears by truth of the Bible >> By Ruth Gledhill, Religion Correspondent >> >> THE hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church has published a teaching >> document instructing the faithful that some parts of the Bible are not >> actually true. > > This is nothing new. The Catholic Church has never held that the bible > is "inerrant", which is the way the belief that every word of it is true > is usually described. As far as I know, none of the mainstream > protestant sects hold the Bible to be inerrant, either -- it's only when > you get into the pentacostalists, the evangelicals, and the charismatic From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 5 20:01:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9631Y9Y027950; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 20:01:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9630Xac027654; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 20:00:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 20:00:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: space elevator testing Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2005 13:00:11 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <8s39k11tn9phq2hs6asl1fs173lj8l7s1r 4ax.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta03ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.77.227] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Thu, 6 Oct 2005 03:00:10 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j9630Faq027501 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63621 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Alex Caliostro's message of Tue, 04 Oct 2005 09:55:22 -0600: Hi, [snip] >Space Elevator Concept Undergoes “Reel” World Testing >By Leonard David >Senior Space Writer >posted: 23 September 2005 >2:33 p.m. ET [snip] This is pointless as long as there are no known materials with sufficient strength to do the job (or even come anywhere near). When the best we have only reaches 3-400 km, and needs to go 36000 km, we are still a long way short of the mark. Furthermore, at normal atomic separation distances, the bond energy would have to exceed that of any known chemical bond by about a factor of 10 to make it possible, which is almost out of the question. The only real hope would lie in a dense, light, strong, hydrino compound. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk In a town full of candlestick makers, everyone lives in the light, In a town full of thieves, there is only one candle, and everyone lives in the night. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 5 20:15:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j963FJdl004342; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 20:15:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j963FILB004327; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 20:15:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 20:15:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <434496AF.6040000 pobox.com> Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2005 23:14:55 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.10) Gecko/20050719 Fedora/1.7.10-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Off Topic: Not Sure of the Script References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63622 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harry Veeder wrote: >Has a bible ever been published with some sort of disclaimer? > > Dunno, but I think the converse of the question may be equally interesting: Does the Bible say, _anywhere_ in its text, that the entire text is the inerrant word of God? And does it say, _anywhere_ in its text, which books actually constitute the Bible? Does the Bible define "scripture", anywhere? Why do we include the letter of Jude but not the book of Enoch, for instance? Where in the Bible is the list that names the first of those books but not the second? Happy hunting. >Harry > >Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > > >>Alex Caliostro wrote: >> >> >> >>>i know tom and richard often post on esoteric issues -- i oft see >>>frank quote from the latin bible >>> >>>i was wonderin if you cant believe scriptsure on what do you base belief >>> >>>"Catholic Church no longer swears by truth of the Bible >>>By Ruth Gledhill, Religion Correspondent >>> >>>THE hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church has published a teaching >>>document instructing the faithful that some parts of the Bible are not >>>actually true. >>> >>> >>This is nothing new. The Catholic Church has never held that the bible >>is "inerrant", which is the way the belief that every word of it is true >>is usually described. As far as I know, none of the mainstream >>protestant sects hold the Bible to be inerrant, either -- it's only when >>you get into the pentacostalists, the evangelicals, and the charismatic >> >> > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 5 20:21:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j963KuNv006617; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 20:21:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j963KPjk006473; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 20:20:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 20:20:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [68.158.1.60] X-Originating-Email: [caliostro1795 hotmail.com] X-Sender: caliostro1795 hotmail.com In-Reply-To: <434496AF.6040000 pobox.com> From: "Alex Caliostro" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Off Topic: Not Sure of the Script Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2005 21:20:03 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Oct 2005 03:20:04.0193 (UTC) FILETIME=[D8077D10:01C5CA24] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63623 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" >Does the Bible say, _anywhere_ in its text, that the entire text is the >inerrant word of God? so it's kinda like grimms so whats this logos thing _____ -alex _________________________________________________________________ Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 5 20:30:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j963U2rr010990; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 20:30:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j963OS2a008561; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 20:24:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 20:24:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002301c5ca25$645945a0$f0027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Off Topic: Not sure of the script Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 22:23:57 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001F_01C5C9FB.7A9E0DC0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.5 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,HTML_40_50,HTML_MESSAGE,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: <0Y6OZD.A.pFC.rjJRDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63624 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C5C9FB.7A9E0DC0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0020_01C5C9FB.7AA2A1A0" ------=_NextPart_001_0020_01C5C9FB.7AA2A1A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank Alex Caliostro wrote: >=20 >> i know tom and richard often post on esoteric issues -- i oft see >> frank quote from the latin bible >>=20 >> i was wonderin if you cant believe scriptsure on what do you base = belief Stephen A. Lawrence wrote.. This is nothing new. The Catholic Church has never held that the bible=20 is "inerrant", which is the way the belief that every word of it is true = is usually described. As far as I know, none of the mainstream=20 protestant sects hold the Bible to be inerrant, either -- it's only when = you get into the pentacostalists, the evangelicals, and the charismatic=20 sects that you find a widespread belief that every word of it is truth=20 Alex,=20 You've been peeking < grin> . It is true that I have an " esoteric = moment" on occasion. On the subject of inerrant wording in bible = scripture, it has been my experience that people tend to believe = whatever they want. With so many translations of the bible stemming from = countless manuscripts, and with so many denominations , each claiming = their translation is correct, it does appear a bit of confusion can = cause a non believer pause. Wouldn't it be interesting to consider that an all wise Creator took = this into account ? Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0020_01C5C9FB.7AA2A1A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
 

Alex Caliostro wrote:
>
>> i know tom and richard = often post=20 on esoteric issues -- i oft see
>> frank quote from the latin=20 bible
>>
>> i was wonderin if you cant believe = scriptsure on=20 what do you base belief

Stephen A. Lawrence wrote..
This is nothing new.  The = Catholic Church=20 has never held that the bible
is "inerrant", which is the way the = belief=20 that every word of it is true
is usually described.  As far as = I know,=20 none of the mainstream
protestant sects hold the Bible to be = inerrant,=20 either -- it's only when
you get into the pentacostalists, the = evangelicals,=20 and the charismatic
sects that you find a widespread belief that = every word=20 of it is truth

Alex,

You've been peeking < grin> . It is true that I have an " = esoteric=20 moment" on occasion. On the subject of inerrant wording in bible = scripture, it=20 has been my experience that people tend to believe whatever they want. = With so=20 many translations of the bible stemming from countless manuscripts, and = with so=20 many denominations , each claiming their translation is correct, it does = appear=20 a bit of confusion can cause a non believer pause.

Wouldn't it be interesting to consider that an all wise Creator took = this=20 into account ?

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_0020_01C5C9FB.7AA2A1A0-- ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C5C9FB.7A9E0DC0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001e01c5ca25$63540aa0$f0027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C5C9FB.7A9E0DC0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 5 20:46:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j963jhf5016124; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 20:46:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j963jbj7016083; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 20:45:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 20:45:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2005 23:43:51 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Off Topic: Not Sure of the Script In-reply-to: <434496AF.6040000 pobox.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63625 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > > Harry Veeder wrote: > >> Has a bible ever been published with some sort of disclaimer? >> >> > Dunno, but I think the converse of the question may be equally interesting: > > Does the Bible say, _anywhere_ in its text, that the entire text is the > inerrant word of God? word up! Harry http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=20010904 > And does it say, _anywhere_ in its text, which books actually constitute > the Bible? Does the Bible define "scripture", anywhere? Why do we > include the letter of Jude but not the book of Enoch, for instance? > Where in the Bible is the list that names the first of those books but > not the second? > > Happy hunting. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 5 20:51:42 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j963olGg018159; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 20:51:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j963olrr018133; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 20:50:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 20:50:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: US scientists resurrect deadly 1918 flu Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2005 13:50:24 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051005162120.03f2a3d0 pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20051005162120.03f2a3d0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta02ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.77.227] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Thu, 6 Oct 2005 03:50:24 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j963oTom017692 Resent-Message-ID: <5dgWVB.A.IbE.W8JRDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63626 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Wed, 05 Oct 2005 16:23:57 -0400: Hi, [snip] >Viral fragments pieced together. Astounding! Shades of Jurassic Park. Ulp! See: > >http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn8103 > >- Jed > I wonder if these are the same scientists that let the mice with black plague escape? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk In a town full of candlestick makers, everyone lives in the light, In a town full of thieves, there is only one candle, and everyone lives in the night. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 5 21:02:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9641tNd021949; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 21:02:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9640s7D021519; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 21:00:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 21:00:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2005 23:59:11 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Off Topic: Not sure of the script In-reply-to: <002301c5ca25$645945a0$f0027841 xptower> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_QdLPlObx94qpoOi3sa0FXA)" User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63627 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --Boundary_(ID_QdLPlObx94qpoOi3sa0FXA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT RC Macaulay wrote: Alex Caliostro wrote: > >> i know tom and richard often post on esoteric issues -- i oft see >> frank quote from the latin bible >> >> i was wonderin if you cant believe scriptsure on what do you base belief Stephen A. Lawrence wrote.. This is nothing new. The Catholic Church has never held that the bible is "inerrant", which is the way the belief that every word of it is true is usually described. As far as I know, none of the mainstream protestant sects hold the Bible to be inerrant, either -- it's only when you get into the pentacostalists, the evangelicals, and the charismatic sects that you find a widespread belief that every word of it is truth Alex, You've been peeking < grin> . It is true that I have an " esoteric moment" on occasion. On the subject of inerrant wording in bible scripture, it has been my experience that people tend to believe whatever they want. With so many translations of the bible stemming from countless manuscripts, and with so many denominations , each claiming their translation is correct, it does appear a bit of confusion can cause a non believer pause. Wouldn't it be interesting to consider that an all wise Creator took this into account ? Richard Is this confusion all part of God's plan? Was the Bible a teaser of biblical proportions? When will "The Inerrant Word of God" become available? ;-) Harry --Boundary_(ID_QdLPlObx94qpoOi3sa0FXA) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Re: Off Topic: Not sure of the script RC Macaulay wrote:


Alex Caliostro wrote:
>
>> i know tom and richard often post on esoteric issues -- i oft see
>> frank quote from the latin bible
>>
>> i was wonderin if you cant believe scriptsure on what do you base belief

Stephen A. Lawrence wrote..
This is nothing new.  The Catholic Church has never held that the bible
is "inerrant", which is the way the belief that every word of it is true
is usually described.  As far as I know, none of the mainstream
protestant sects hold the Bible to be inerrant, either -- it's only when
you get into the pentacostalists, the evangelicals, and the charismatic
sects that you find a widespread belief that every word of it is truth

Alex,

You've been peeking < grin> . It is true that I have an " esoteric moment" on occasion. On the subject of inerrant wording in bible scripture, it has been my experience that people tend to believe whatever they want. With so many translations of the bible stemming from countless manuscripts, and with so many denominations , each claiming their translation is correct, it does appear a bit of confusion can cause a non believer pause.

Wouldn't it be interesting to consider that an all wise Creator took this into account ?

Richard


Is this confusion all part of God's plan?

Was the Bible a teaser of biblical proportions?

When will "The Inerrant Word of God" become available?

;-)
Harry --Boundary_(ID_QdLPlObx94qpoOi3sa0FXA)-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 6 00:54:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j967rZiC017331; Thu, 6 Oct 2005 00:53:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j967rXwc017309; Thu, 6 Oct 2005 00:53:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 00:53:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <3AB2240B6206D911B21500508B6D8E305DDD41 caraupermb01.carrier-apac.com.au> From: John.Rudiger carrier.utc.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Russian Vortex Site Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 15:51:55 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63628 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Vorts, I received the below link from a member on another list:- its both in russian and english and contains a ton of animations and whatnot having to do with vortexes, fish-like movement and whatnot. There is some pretty interesting stuff on this site. The following is a comment I thought might interest some of you by one of the list members:- What I found interesting in looking at this site and it's related articles are the definitions below which expand and at the same time loosen the grip of the laws of thermo dynamics: Laws are developed to further understanding in that they allow the formulisation of perceived phenomena AT THE TIME OF PERCEPTION (This includes, the place, the individual and the time) This does not mean they are correct for all time because all things grow, and therefore change. If we allow others to do our thinking for us then their CONCLUSIONS in terms of formula or statements can prevent development of new ways of perception that may be beneficial. Matter is condensed energy. Statements and laws are condensed perceptions, unlike matter they may not be useful. Binding our thinking to such laws may be one of the reasons Cycloidal Space Curve Motion Machines are not in every day use. When we are first attracted to these ideas we are thirsty for knowledge, we type in implosion in search engines & join groups like this, it satisfies us for a while and we sit back waiting for the answers to come. How are we to be like the trout in the high mountain stream where swimming in an energised medium it effortlessly picks its nourishment and is guided to the source by the scents coming down stream? In a way the internet is not always helpful because it gives us the effects rather than causes, The way is understanding the first principles, when these are understood an individual can design the machines they want. If we were embarking on a conventional course of study we would go to lectures and be guided by professors, our progress would be marked or graded, in maths I was always told to go back to first principles. There are many centres around the world that use these principles but no one coherent way to first unlearn our original programming and start to learn the new ideas. I have only just found that there are some principles that are needed. We find them in nature -the indirect ways- if the most efficient way to move something was a straight line we wouldn't have a Cycloidal Space Curve Motion . We want to understand things discreetly as we first came to understand living things by killing them and cutting them up to name their parts. Now we are coming to understand our universe or multiverse by including ourselves so we are not likely to start cutting. Our learning has to come another way and it is not just external we have to follow the motion of the water and turn the outside inside, just as a foetus grows. In my journey recently I have been looking at labyrinths (mazes) that are 2d models of this 3d process and celebrated for centuries, how did they know? Intuition is the key. number 2. below caught my attention because the repulsine causes the difference in pressure that runs it from the surrounding fluid that is, for want of a better term, entropic, even, no temperature gradient. In 3 we have a particular movement CSCM, not sure about the other laws. The 2nd law of thermo dynamics says "in all energy exchanges, if no energy enters or leaves the system, the potential energy of the state will always be less than that of the initial state." what is noticeable by its absence is the WAYenergy is moved. It only describes a snap shot in what is a linear system. I think CSCM acts as a key to a new dimension of energy non local? Eather Scalar lots of names, because this possibility is not allowed in conventional mechanics we can never open the door-as long as we think that way-to reactionless movement and non polluting power. <<...OLE_Obj...>> What I found interesting above is the phrase:- "Laws are developed to further understanding in that they allow the formulisation of perceived phenomena AT THE TIME OF PERCEPTION (This includes, the place, the individual and the time)This does not mean they are correct for all time because all things grow, and therefore change. If we allow others to do our thinking for us then their CONCLUSIONS in terms of formula or statements can prevent development of new ways of perception that may be beneficial." Considering the traffic lately on Vortex I thought it very appropriate, especially "This does not mean they are correct [Laws] for all time because all things grow, and therefore change". Maybe this could be the "easy out" for Parksie and his stance on CF that he has been looking for? Regards, John Rudiger Perth WA Ph:- 08 9232 7150 Fax:- 08 9232 7155 Opportunity awaits the prepared mind. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 6 01:24:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j968NkEi029875; Thu, 6 Oct 2005 01:24:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j968MjeU029537; Thu, 6 Oct 2005 01:22:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 01:22:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20051006082219124.1E68A1C0008B mwinf3104.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20051006082221.00a07140 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2005 09:22:21 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Off Topic: Not Sure of the Script Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63629 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 02:46 pm 05/10/2005 -0600, Alex wrote: > I know Tom and Richard often post on esoteric issues -- > I often see Frank quote from the Latin bible The Vulgate to be precise. >I was wondering if you can't believe scripture, on what do you base belief? Well, in my particular case I base it on what the Catholic Church used to teach up until the 1960's Vatican Council. Since then, to quote Paul VI, "the smoke of Satan has entered into the Church" and until the smoke clears one would be well advised not to take too much notice of what anyone says since different people say different things and unless the Pope pronounces something ex-cathedra one can believe whatever one likes. Catholics have always believed in the bible as interpretted by the teaching authority of the church. After all, unlike some holy books, the bible did not come down from the sky and land on someone's head. The bible is simply a particular collection of books which the teaching authority of the Catholic Church said were divinely inspired works. So when one accepts the bible as the word of God one is implicitly accepting the teaching authority of the Catholic Church. It is therefore illogical to accept Church authority in relation to what the books of the bible are, and not accept it in relation to what the words in those books mean. >http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13509-1811332,00.html "...after hearing of a young boy who asked his teacher why Mary and Joseph had named their baby after a swear word." That bit made me smile. 8-) Cheers, Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 6 01:55:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j968tEOa009678; Thu, 6 Oct 2005 01:55:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j968tC06009659; Thu, 6 Oct 2005 01:55:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 01:55:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20051005101843.04ba1200 pop.mindspring.com> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20051002121525.02980c70 mail.newenergytimes.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20051003160243.046352e0 pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20051005101843.04ba1200 pop.mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 03:54:47 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: Islands of Ignorance - and islands of reversed entropy Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: <5QpEfC.A.3WC.wZORDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63630 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >thomas malloy wrote: > >>So you maintain that life just happened? You believe that nonliving >>material just became animated? > >Yup. I am sure of it. You should not pretend to be surprised that I >think so. Most biologists agree, as I am sure you know. Having mentioned the complexity of the system, which I'm sure you are aware of, and the irreduceable complexity of subsystems like the eye, then there is the entropy reversal aspects, I'm surprised that you would not at least concede that the system could not have occurred spontaneously. >unded and not a bit controversial. > > >>>Energy increases the information content in living systems (mainly >>>expressed as DNA), but nothing can organize life, plan it, or give >>>it any purpose. It is manifestly without purpose. >> >>Given the complexity of living systems, that belief is, to put it >>mildly, improbable. > >You equate complexity with purpose -- with intelligence. There is >absolutely no basis No, I'm saying that the Second Law isn't called a law because some physical systems can get around it. Quite the opposite, I don't know of any way to get around it. > >Oh come now. You know better than that. There is no overall reversal >of entropy on earth. Yes there is, it's called the sexual fusion process. The synthesis of phytochemicals is another example. Sure the Sun is running down, I suppose at some point he'll have reset the system, so what? > >> I don't understand how the movement of the stock market is germane >>to the complexity of the living organism. > As I just explained, both are examples of complexity without organization, purpose or plan. I disagree with your analogy. I don't see any similarity between the stock exchange and protein synthesis, not to mention the proteins going to the various subsystems of the cell right where they are needed. The electron transfer mechanism which allows for ATP synthesis comes to mind. Seven organometallic complexes forming a chemical to electrical energy to chemical energy transfer. Citric acid is oxidized and ATP results, I believe this to be another example of entropy reversal. I believe that if children are presented with the complexity of the system, it's divine nature will be obvious. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 6 02:02:42 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9692Cnc012870; Thu, 6 Oct 2005 02:02:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9692BP7012832; Thu, 6 Oct 2005 02:02:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 02:02:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20051005222116.49719.qmail web35008.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20051005222116.49719.qmail web35008.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 04:01:49 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: DP and Coal. What's The Story? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63631 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rhong Dhong posted; >Depolymerization supposedly makes oil out of just >about anything. > >How does DP compare in this respect with other methods >to process oil shale into oil? Infinite Energy published an article about making petroleum out of coal. The Interior Department of the American Government developed it. Then the Wall Street Establishment helped the Nazi's build plants to do it. Another interesting coincidence. > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 6 02:12:01 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j969BVBM017098; Thu, 6 Oct 2005 02:11:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j969BU8Y017084; Thu, 6 Oct 2005 02:11:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 02:11:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20051006091058618.96E664800098 mwinf3107.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20051006091100.00a0e79c pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2005 10:11:00 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Off Topic: Not Sure of the Script Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63632 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:02 pm 05/10/2005 -0400, Stephen wrote: > > > Indeed, as I understand it, in the Middle Ages, the Catholic church did > not allow ordinary church members to read the bible directly, on the > grounds that it needed some interpretation to avoid misunderstanding it. And a jolly good thing too. 8-) After all - Look at the situation in secular terms. Secular governments do not allow the great unwashed to experiment with high explosives since they may not only destroy their own bodies but they are very likely to destroy the bodies of their fellow citizens as well. I'm sure that all Vortexians would agree that this restriction is a reasonable one. Now if one believes that one has an immortal soul and that when one dies that soul is destined to go to heaven or to hell for all eternity, then it is perfectly reasonable to prevent the ignorant and uneducated from tinkering with the instruction book. After all, as the Penny Catechism puts it. ================================================================== 7. Of which must you take more care, of your body or of your soul? I must take more care of my soul; for Christ has said, 'What does it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and suffers the loss of his own soul?' (Matt. 16:26) ================================================================== Like Jed, one may not agree on the assumptions, existence of God, divinity of Christ, foundation of a teaching church with divine authority, etc. but I feel sure that even Jed would agree, that given those assumptions, to restrict the instructions on making the religious equivalent of nuclear explosives to people intelligent and responsible, is perfectly reasonable. Cheers, Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 6 02:31:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j969VBMX025899; Thu, 6 Oct 2005 02:31:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j969V59p025845; Thu, 6 Oct 2005 02:31:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 02:31:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <434485B0.2040200 pobox.com> References: <434485B0.2040200 pobox.com> Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 04:30:48 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: Off Topic: Not Sure of the Script Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63633 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Alex Caliostro wrote: > >>i know tom and richard often post on esoteric issues -- i oft see >>frank quote from the latin bible >> >>i was wonderin if you cant believe scriptsure on what do you base belief >> >>"Catholic Church no longer swears by truth of the Bible >>By Ruth Gledhill, Religion Correspondent >> >>THE hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church has published a teaching >>document instructing the faithful that some parts of the Bible are >>not actually true. I'm not surprised. > >This is nothing new. The Catholic Church has never held that the >bible is "inerrant", The Roman Church's theology was always been a mixture of paganism and Judica. meaning a faith based on the Bible. During their ascendancy to power, they hunted down people like me, labeled us Judizers, and executed us. Hyslop's Two Babylons presents a detailed discussion of this paganism. David Hunt's A Woman Rides the Beast is the same thing from a more results oriented treatment. >which is the way the belief that every word of it is true is usually >described. As far as I know, none of the mainstream protestant >sects hold the Bible to be inerrant, either -- During the Protestant Reformation they used to. > it's only when you get into the pentacostalists, the evangelicals, >and the charismatic sects that you find a widespread belief that >every word of it is truth That's why we left mainstream protestantism. > (and Judas hanged himself but the rope broke and so he fell and >burst his guts, too, Why do you have a problem with that? >and locusts in Moses's time really did have four legs, Where did you come up with that? > and the world really was created in seven days just 6,000 years >ago, and so forth... The Hebrew text can be read either 7 24 hour days, or 7 periods of time, which could be of increasing lengths of time, the further back you go. >did Noah include dinosaurs on the arc? If not, why not? Maybe. Dragon myths exist in all cultures. Have you ever heard of the human and dinosaur footprints preserved side by side in rock? > (Did he include bedbugs? Why??) Pests and thrones are part of the curse which Yahweh placed on the Earth in Genesis 3. > And what about those 50,000,000 species of rainforest insects, >many of whom don't swim too well -- where did Noah find space for >them, and how did he put them all back afterwards? An entity would fashion a human out of a lump of clay would have no problem taking a dog and creating many different species from their offspring. Ditto for the insects. > I mean, they're scattered all over tropical South America, which >isn't very close to Mount Ararat. And what, exactly, was different >about water before the Flood, such that sunshine on raindrops would >not form a rainbow? Prior to the flood,there was a canopy of crystalized water around the earth. Consequently the atmospheric pressure was higher and the fauna and flora were different. >One encounters many little puzzles if one tries to read it all as >literally true.) > >Indeed, as I understand it, in the Middle Ages, the Catholic church >did not allow ordinary church members to read the bible directly, on >the grounds that it needed some interpretation to avoid >misunderstanding it. You are correct, see above. > >> >>The Catholic bishops of England, Wales and Scotland are warning >>their five million worshippers, as well as any others drawn to the >>study of scripture, that they should not expect "total accuracy" >>from the Bible." And the World's condition continues to deteriorate. Yeshua, and by extension Yahweh made it plain that he has no respect for human intelligence. The wisdom of man is foolishness to him. As the exchange between Jed and myself makes plain, religion is a belief system. Ditto for secularism. The difference in paradigms totally affects how we see the World. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 6 02:36:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j969aH8f028301; Thu, 6 Oct 2005 02:36:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j969aGWQ028285; Thu, 6 Oct 2005 02:36:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 02:36:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <8s39k11tn9phq2hs6asl1fs173lj8l7s1r 4ax.com> References: <8s39k11tn9phq2hs6asl1fs173lj8l7s1r 4ax.com> Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 04:36:00 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: space elevator testing Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j969Zw8r028133 Resent-Message-ID: <9ORrVC.A.z5G.PAPRDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63634 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >In reply to Alex Caliostro's message of Tue, 04 Oct 2005 09:55:22 >-0600: Robin van Spaandonk posted >Hi, >[snip] > >Space Elevator Concept Undergoes “Reel” World Testing > >This is pointless as long as there are no known materials with >sufficient strength to do the job (or even come anywhere near). >When the best we have only reaches 3-400 km, and needs to go 36000 >km, we are still a long way short of the mark. > >Furthermore, at normal atomic separation distances, the bond >energy would have to exceed that of any known chemical bond by >about a factor of 10 to make it possible, That's how it seems to me. The people who are experimenting with the Space Elevator seem to believe differently. 8 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 6 05:31:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j96CUTVh030080; Thu, 6 Oct 2005 05:30:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j96CUMPg030007; Thu, 6 Oct 2005 05:30:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 05:30:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <002301c5ca71$a70f9a60$d2027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: Subject: Re: Off Topic: Not sure of the script Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 07:29:52 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0020_01C5CA47.BDB4AAF0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.8 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,HTML_30_40, HTML_MESSAGE,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63635 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C5CA47.BDB4AAF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: Off Topic: Not sure of the scriptHarry, Make no mistake about it, there is no confusion of God's word. There are = misinterpretations and there are deletions and additions made by man. In simple terms..there are those that believe there is more that just = life.. this is a hope to which all faith is based. There are those that = refuse to believe. It is not that there is no evidence to believe ( look = up into the starlite heavens at night), it is they refuse to give God = His proper glory as Creator. As a result, He darkens their foolish = heart. Thus they live their life in constant fear of death. This fear = manifests itself in forms we see as an ever accelerating decadence in = morals and debauchery, both in social as well as government. We have witnessed two major hurricane events in a month's time. = Government response totally collapsed. The churches were the first = responders and performed their intended function as a faith based system = . This happened in a nation that is supposed to have all the answers and = all the money. The city of New Orleans and it immediate environs has = ceased to exist as a government entity and a society.The cities of = Beaumont.Orange, Pt.Arthur and Lake Charles are likewise. Louisana and = Texas are technically under marshal law with a military commander in = charge. FEMA has wasted billions of dollars building a bureaucracy = instead of a plan for emergencies. The order to evacuate Houston = resulted in 2.5 million people on grid locked freeways with no gas and = no water or food. There was no FEMA plan. Regardless of whatever = question was posed to FEMA, their answer was always " thats not our = job". Trust your politicians at your own peril. We can debate the merits of the bible while Rome burns but at the end of = the day, without food , water and shelter, 1.2 million people devastated = by the storms are left on the street wondering what happened to all the = promises that non-believers claim government will take care of = everyone.=20 Gosh!, Didn't you get the hint in " The Wizard of Oz" when the magician = behind the curtain was exposed. Richard ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Harry Veeder=20 To: vortex-l eskimo.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 11:59 PM Subject: Re: Off Topic: Not sure of the script RC Macaulay wrote: Alex Caliostro wrote: >=20 >> i know tom and richard often post on esoteric issues -- i oft see >> frank quote from the latin bible >>=20 >> i was wonderin if you cant believe scriptsure on what do you base = belief=20 Stephen A. Lawrence wrote.. This is nothing new. The Catholic Church has never held that the = bible=20 is "inerrant", which is the way the belief that every word of it is = true=20 is usually described. As far as I know, none of the mainstream=20 protestant sects hold the Bible to be inerrant, either -- it's only = when=20 you get into the pentacostalists, the evangelicals, and the = charismatic=20 sects that you find a widespread belief that every word of it is = truth=20 Alex,=20 You've been peeking < grin> . It is true that I have an " esoteric = moment" on occasion. On the subject of inerrant wording in bible = scripture, it has been my experience that people tend to believe = whatever they want. With so many translations of the bible stemming from = countless manuscripts, and with so many denominations , each claiming = their translation is correct, it does appear a bit of confusion can = cause a non believer pause.=20 Wouldn't it be interesting to consider that an all wise Creator took = this into account ?=20 Richard Is this confusion all part of God's plan?=20 Was the Bible a teaser of biblical proportions? When will "The Inerrant Word of God" become available? ;-) Harry ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C5CA47.BDB4AAF0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: Off Topic: Not sure of the script
Harry,
Make no mistake about it, there is no = confusion=20 of God's word. There are misinterpretations and there are deletions and=20 additions made by man.
In simple terms..there are those that = believe=20 there is more that just life.. this is a hope to which all faith is = based. There=20 are those that refuse to believe. It is not that there is no = evidence to=20 believe ( look up into the starlite heavens at night), it is they refuse = to give=20 God His proper glory as Creator. As a result, He darkens their foolish = heart.=20 Thus they live their life in constant fear of death. This fear manifests = itself=20 in forms we see as an ever accelerating decadence in morals and = debauchery, both=20 in social as well as government.
 
We have witnessed two major hurricane = events in a=20 month's time. Government response totally collapsed. The churches were = the first=20 responders and performed their intended function as a faith based = system .=20 This happened in a nation that is supposed to have all the answers and = all the=20 money. The city of New Orleans and it immediate environs has ceased to = exist as=20 a government entity and a society.The cities of Beaumont.Orange, = Pt.Arthur and=20 Lake Charles are likewise. Louisana and Texas are technically under = marshal=20 law with a military commander in charge. FEMA has wasted billions of = dollars=20 building a bureaucracy instead of a plan for emergencies. The order to = evacuate=20 Houston resulted in 2.5 million people  on grid locked freeways = with no gas=20 and no water or food. There was no FEMA plan. Regardless of whatever = question=20 was posed to FEMA, their answer was always " thats not our job". Trust = your=20 politicians at your own peril.
We can debate the merits of the bible = while Rome=20 burns but at the end of the day, without food , water and shelter, 1.2 = million=20 people devastated by the storms are left on the street wondering what = happened=20 to all the promises that non-believers claim  government = will=20 take care of everyone.
 
Gosh!, Didn't you get the hint in " = The Wizard of=20 Oz" when the magician behind the curtain was exposed.
 
Richard
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Harry Veeder
Sent: Wednesday, October 05, = 2005 11:59=20 PM
Subject: Re: Off Topic: Not = sure of the=20 script

RC Macaulay wrote:


Alex Caliostro wrote:
>
>> i know tom = and=20 richard often post on esoteric issues -- i oft see
>> frank = quote=20 from the latin bible
>>
>> i was wonderin if you = cant=20 believe scriptsure on what do you base belief

Stephen A. = Lawrence=20 wrote..
This is nothing new.  The Catholic Church has never = held=20 that the bible
is "inerrant", which is the way the belief that = every=20 word of it is true
is usually described.  As far as I know, = none of=20 the mainstream
protestant sects hold the Bible to be inerrant, = either --=20 it's only when
you get into the pentacostalists, the = evangelicals, and=20 the charismatic
sects that you find a widespread belief that = every word=20 of it is truth

Alex,

You've been peeking < = grin> . It=20 is true that I have an " esoteric moment" on occasion. On the = subject of=20 inerrant wording in bible scripture, it has been my experience that = people=20 tend to believe whatever they want. With so many translations of the = bible=20 stemming from countless manuscripts, and with so many denominations = , each=20 claiming their translation is correct, it does appear a bit of = confusion can=20 cause a non believer pause.

Wouldn't it be interesting to = consider=20 that an all wise Creator took this into account ?=20

Richard


Is this confusion all part of = God's=20 plan?

Was the Bible a teaser of biblical = proportions?

When will=20 "The Inerrant Word of God" become available?

;-)
Harry=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C5CA47.BDB4AAF0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 6 06:33:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j96DWjhv006652; Thu, 6 Oct 2005 06:33:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j96DWhd8006631; Thu, 6 Oct 2005 06:32:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 06:32:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002c01c5ca7a$5f6dcf20$1714fea9 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051005162120.03f2a3d0 pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: US scientists resurrect deadly 1918 flu Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 06:32:17 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0029_01C5CA3F.B29ED030" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63636 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C5CA3F.B29ED030 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Robin van Spaandonk > I wonder if these are the same scientists that let the mice with > black plague escape? Exactly what I was thinking. Murphy's Law may be an over-generalization, = but it is unwise to flaunt it. [side note] 'unwise' is my choice for 'le mot juste' of the day...=20 ....and the common-man's choice 'warning' for many instances of = official-precaution these days - ever since MacroSoft and Apple started = using it for certain 'proscribed' computer folders. At least it more = compact than "don't even think about looking in this folder, chump!)"=20 "Unwise" is turning up everywhere in place of the former precautionary = choice: 'caveat'. One further instance of the LCD-effect (lowest common = denominator) of computer-associated lingo on the general (or vulgar) = population - not to mention another brain-dump. Apparently this trend = away from our Latin language heritage is due to a failure in the current = education system, as there are far fewer Latin readers then in past = generations. Alas, a sign of the times.... vulgate or no. Jones BTW some ancient text became known as the 'versio vulgata', which = literally means 'vulgar' verse or 'common-man' translation. 'Vulgate' = nowadays, at least in the eyes of those who cherish every word as truth, = and even though it is usually far-different in meaning than the original = Greek (further than 'vulgar' is from 'common'), should not necessarily = be confused with the modern nuances of 'vulgar', which is said to have = taken on a slightly divergent meaning (more towards promiscuity, LOL) in = modern English. The implication that being 'common' ain't what it used = to be.... ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C5CA3F.B29ED030 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
From: Robin van Spaandonk
 
> I wonder if these are the same = scientists that=20 let the mice with
> black plague escape?
 
Exactly what I was thinking. Murphy's = Law may be an=20 over-generalization, but it is unwise to flaunt it.
 
[side note] 'unwise' is my choice for =  'le mot=20 juste' of the day...
 
....and the common-man's choice = 'warning' for many=20 instances of official-precaution these days - ever since MacroSoft = and=20 Apple started using it for certain 'proscribed' computer folders. At = least it=20 more compact than "don't even think about looking in this folder, = chump!)"=20
 
"Unwise" is turning up everywhere in = place of the=20 former precautionary choice: 'caveat'. One further instance of the = LCD-effect=20 (lowest common denominator) of computer-associated lingo on the general = (or=20 vulgar) population - not to mention another brain-dump. Apparently this = trend=20 away from our Latin language heritage is due to a failure in the current = education system, as there are far fewer Latin readers then in past=20 generations.
 
Alas, a sign of the times.... vulgate = or=20 no.
 
Jones
 
BTW  some = ancient text=20 became known as the 'versio vulgata', which literally means 'vulgar'=20 verse or 'common-man' translation.  'Vulgate' nowadays, at = least in=20 the eyes of those who cherish every word as truth, and even though it is = usually=20 far-different in meaning than the original Greek (further than 'vulgar' = is from=20 'common'), should not necessarily be confused with the modern nuances of = 'vulgar', which is said to have taken on a slightly divergent meaning = (more=20 towards promiscuity, LOL) in modern English. The implication that being = 'common'=20 ain't what it used to be....
------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C5CA3F.B29ED030-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 6 06:46:01 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j96DjWol013957; Thu, 6 Oct 2005 06:45:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j96DjRu9013924; Thu, 6 Oct 2005 06:45:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 06:45:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <48vift$1bj4o62 mxip07a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.97,182,1125892800"; d="scan'208"; a="1462919362:sNHT555931714" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: OrionWorks Organization: OrionWorks To: CC: Subject: Re: Islands of Ignorance - and islands of reversed entropy Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 8:45:03 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <-YgEGB.A.gZD.2pSRDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63637 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: malloy sez: ... > I believe that if children are presented with the > complexity of the system, it's divine nature will > be obvious. Ah, the "get them while their young" ploy. I'm sure this strikes terror in the minds of many objective rationalists. I wouldn't worry too much about it. As any parent knows as soon their offspring reaches adolescence the child's desire to follow in the parent's footsteps often seems to go out the door. This is, of course, the beginning of the process where most of us first learn how to think independently for ourselves. Everyone passes through this tumultuous stage of personal growth - some more obnoxiously than others. The more those who attempt to entrench themselves in positions of authority try to show that "Intelligent Design" is the only true philosophy the more likely the "theory" will be discarded by independently growing inquiring minds. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 6 06:55:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j96DsXLe017667; Thu, 6 Oct 2005 06:54:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j96DsWsD017649; Thu, 6 Oct 2005 06:54:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 06:54:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] X-Originating-Email: [caliostro1795 hotmail.com] X-Sender: caliostro1795 hotmail.com In-Reply-To: <002301c5ca25$645945a0$f0027841 xptower> From: "Alex Caliostro" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Off Topic: Not sure of the script Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2005 07:54:11 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Oct 2005 13:54:11.0301 (UTC) FILETIME=[6DDF7150:01C5CA7D] Resent-Message-ID: <92wquC.A.rTE.YySRDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63638 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >From: "RC Macaulay" >On the subject of inerrant wording in bible scripture, it has been my >experience that people tend to believe whatever they want. does that apply to you and me >With so many translations of the bible stemming from countless manuscripts, >and with so many denominations , each claiming their translation is >correct, it does appear a bit of confusion can cause a non believer pause. what bothers me is clear evidence of selective editing - especially in the nt - particularly matthew _____ -alex _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 6 07:01:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j96E1I7r025122; Thu, 6 Oct 2005 07:01:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j96E1GoG025100; Thu, 6 Oct 2005 07:01:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 07:01:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <4enk8j$86ucgj mxip30a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.97,182,1125892800"; d="scan'208"; a="275722771:sNHT395509396" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: OrionWorks Organization: OrionWorks To: CC: Subject: Re: Off Topic: Not Sure of the Script Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 9:00:46 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63639 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: malloy sez: ... > Prior to the flood,there was a canopy of crystalized water > around the earth. Consequently the atmospheric pressure > was higher and the fauna and flora were different. "crystallized water". Yes, that explains it. Have you ever read "Cat's Cradle" by Kurt Vonnegut? Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 6 07:09:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j96E9Psj028569; Thu, 6 Oct 2005 07:09:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j96E9NZ3028541; Thu, 6 Oct 2005 07:09:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 07:09:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43452FF9.5060103 pobox.com> Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2005 10:08:57 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.10) Gecko/20050719 Fedora/1.7.10-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Off Topic: Not Sure of the Script References: <434485B0.2040200@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63640 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Entertaining response, Thomas -- thanks. And you had a question, I believe... thomas malloy wrote: > [SAL:] > >> and locusts in Moses's time really did have four legs, > [TM:] > Where did you come up with that? Leviticus 11:20-23, in a discussion of dietary laws. Here's the passage, from the New International Version ('cause that version's easy to search at Gospelcom): ^20 " 'All flying insects that walk on all fours are to be detestable to you. ^21 There are, however, some winged creatures that walk on all fours that you may eat: those that have jointed legs for hopping on the ground. ^22 Of these you may eat any kind of locust, katydid, cricket or grasshopper. ^23 But all other winged creatures that have four legs you are to detest." I was a bit surprised when I ran across this for the first time, a few years back, when I was reading the Bible just to find out what it actually said. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 6 07:24:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j96ENZsc002232; Thu, 6 Oct 2005 07:23:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j96ENYXa002214; Thu, 6 Oct 2005 07:23:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 07:23:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4345334C.7010402 pobox.com> Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2005 10:23:08 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.10) Gecko/20050719 Fedora/1.7.10-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Off Topic: Not Sure of the Script References: <2.2.32.20051006082221.00a07140 pop.freeserve.net> In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20051006082221.00a07140 pop.freeserve.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63641 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Grimer wrote: >Catholics have always believed in the bible as interpretted by the teaching >authority of the church. After all, unlike some holy books, the bible did >not come down from the sky and land on someone's head. The bible is simply >a particular collection of books which the teaching authority of the >Catholic Church said were divinely inspired works. > >So when one accepts the bible as the word of God one is implicitly accepting >the teaching authority of the Catholic Church. It is therefore illogical to >accept Church authority in relation to what the books of the bible are, and >not accept it in relation to what the words in those books mean. > > Well put! Indeed, the particular collection was selected by a committee, and to this day there doesn't seem to be complete agreement on which books should be included in the Canon -- Wisdom and Maccabees, in particular, are included in the main body in some versions and relegated to the apocrypha in others, IIRC. Jewish tradition is somewhat more explicit about this, with the books of scripture divided into several categories depending on various factors, including whether the book's presence in scripture has been challenged (the category of books which have been challenged is the "antilegomena", which, ironically, includes Ezekiel, which one could argue is among the most important books of the OT, but so it goes, humans rarely agree completely about anything). From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 6 07:38:01 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j96EbT91010545; Thu, 6 Oct 2005 07:37:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j96EbQ9X010518; Thu, 6 Oct 2005 07:37:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 07:37:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2005 10:35:41 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Islands of Ignorance - and islands of reversed entropy In-reply-to: <48vift$1bj4o62 mxip07a.cluster1.charter.net> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63642 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: OrionWorks wrote: > malloy sez: > > ... > >> I believe that if children are presented with the >> complexity of the system, it's divine nature will >> be obvious. > > Ah, the "get them while their young" ploy. > > I'm sure this strikes terror in the minds of many objective rationalists. > > I wouldn't worry too much about it. > > As any parent knows as soon their offspring reaches adolescence the child's > desire to follow in the parent's footsteps often seems to go out the door. > This is, of course, the beginning of the process where most of us first learn > how to think independently for ourselves. Everyone passes through this > tumultuous stage of personal growth - some more obnoxiously than others. The stage begins in adolescence but the age of completion varies from individual to individual. There is nothing magic about the ages 16,18,21 30,55,99... Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 6 07:55:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j96Et1Dh024863; Thu, 6 Oct 2005 07:55:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j96EsuiS024782; Thu, 6 Oct 2005 07:54:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 07:54:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <006501c5ca85$d6366f80$1714fea9 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: Subject: Off-and-On Topic: Unwisdom du jour Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 07:54:21 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0062_01C5CA4B.29710D80" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63643 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0062_01C5CA4B.29710D80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In order to re-load the Matrix of free-energy.... on a healthy heaping = grass-guzzling word salad... and with a double serving of window = dressing, no-less.... there is this: "You can't measure anything in a *Holofractaline Model* because = everything is simultaneously becoming local at different rates, and = everything is alot of variables...why chaos is the only math you need to = know..." .... yes, it is a magnoficent piece of verbiage floating around in = cyberspace these days, written by an anymous contributor. But wait ! as = Ron Popeil of vege-matic fame (and no stranger to word-salad) might = implore: There is more! Much more! After reading this GUT-wrencher, the reason that authorial-anonimity is = fervently desired will be abundantly clear to all, but for me it is a = quaint treasure of misbegotten humor, la-ti-dah punnage and more - = certainly worthy of incorporation into the vortex archive.=20 In fact there are a few instances of wisdom herein, interspersed with = such fundamental apothegms as "Without entropy, negentropy wouldn't be = possible, " but all-in-all a jolly-good read unless you have better = things to do. If that is the case, be sure to print it out first - as = you never know when the TP has run out.... Can anyone divulge the name of the author? ... I don't think it is the = Baron, as he would take credit, but maybe "Nora Baron" doing a totally = tongue-in-cheek counter-spoof ??? Anyway, enjoy ! The Laws of Negentropy in Macro and Micro Scales in a VSL Multiverse=20 Or An esoteric approach to the truth The Physics Community produces a schism between old and new every time = an experiment is conducted and contradictory results proven. = Compensatory equations, revision and clutter result. While continuous = theory and experiment continue this pattern with no regard for the = careers founded on outdated models there are a few people who take it = upon themselves to associate results across disciplines to recognize = redundancy or corroborative phenomena. This presents a problem both to = old ideas/careers and those who do the association. Unresolved issues of paradox, anomalies, and redundancy prohibit a truly = comprehensive Theory of Everything. Compounding this is of course an = established physics paradigm funded by industry interests as opposed to = humanitarian interests who have reason to be threatened by new data and = speculation. Attempts to denounce new data and speculation as human = fault are made in futility as there is technically never a consensus on = which to base an argument in the first place, further, the paradox = present in so many disciplines should be evidence enough that nobody can = ever be wrong or right. This being said let us look at why free energy is both possible and = impossible in the context of the first laws: Energy can neither be created or destroyed; For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. The question of Perpetual Motion, Free Energy, or OverUnity is the = primary question in physics even though it is being asked in a hundred = ways. Free Energy as a functional device is not only a useful product = it is experimental proof for the GUT. We Approach the GUT now through = particle accelerators which don't necessarily reproduce natural = phenomena, we observe the cosmos with eyes and machines which can only = be synchronous or entrained to one dimension at a time, we observe = non-local, non-linear phenomena only to record them in local, linear = time and space. To speculate about hyperdimensional physics is considered unscientific = because of the great leaps one must make beyond the confines of an = observer. This role of an observer is undeniable but is undermined by = the stigma of metaphysics. What is the source of novelty in the world of = humans? It is not dwelling on the known that's for sure. Novelty is = conserved within the association of variables of what is known; The = great interdependency of nature assures that all may associate with all, = that self-similarity is hidden beneath the constant change.so to = question the validity of a free energy experiment based on its source, = the human mind, is ridiculous. The Physics establishment insists that = science be based on known observed phenomena not some delusional fancy. = If not for rogue scientists who recognize themselves as experimental = proof, we would be living in a flat terracentric universe where men = cannot fly. A variable speed of light or VSL Multiverse is a deliberately redundant = term. The UNIverse of linear time and mass (or to Bohm, the Explicate = Order) is also a MULTIverse of several dimensions fractured and enfolded = into the UNIverse. We observe the UNIverse but are able to extrapolate = the mechanics of hyperdimensional space mathematically. Our biology is = biased towards the Explicate but our mind CAN BECOME BIASED TOWARDS THE = SUPER/IMPLICATE. Mind has been proven to be non-local as well as local. = This proof is anecdotal because as is the case with ZPE the experimental = proof is too self referential to yield positive or negative results. You = can't measure anything in a *Holofractaline Model* because everything is = simultaneously becoming local at different rates, and everything is alot = of variables...why chaos is the only math you need to know... "They" say the bulk of the universe exists as dark/mirror matter/energy = that can't be observed, they also say there was a big bang and the = universe will fade into a homogenous thing void of movement and = therefore form. So this is the mainstream physics stance: that something they can't see = is going to disappear.I don't know, that just doesn't sound very = scientific. Oh wait, they probably meant that the part of the universe = we observe will disappear, silly me. The whole question of free energy actually does hinge on this premise. We must OBEY the KNOWN "laws" of physics or we are pseudo-science = hobbyists and delusional, unofficial proponents. So lets begin with a simple law I just made up: "Time is relative to the = mass of the observer" Prove it. What is time? What is relative? What is mass? What is an Observer? Is to = the, of the? Grammatical Equations What =3D ZPE Is =3D Asymetry from ZPE To The=3D movement, difference Of The =3D closed system Pronounciation =3D Time Syntax =3D relativity What is =3D Mass An =3D Paradox - object/observation - is to - words/language ???? =3D Observer We are the description of our process and that is the process which we = are So a free energy device must not obey negentropic laws instead of = entropic laws, but rather become biased towards the negentropic aspect = of the singular law. Find the self-similarity under all this novelty, find the scale = invariant phenomena. "The Speed of light is actually a measure of the mass of the observer, = not velocity" "Nothing attains velocity until it is observed, because until then it is = locked into the uncollapsed Simulverse" "All dipoles are two superpositioned monopoles/singularities, one is = naked and omnipresent, its called the Zero Point Manifold, the other is = a quantum dot, closed string, white hole, plank unit, etc,.that is = clothed in linear time." "The transition point between Newtonian Physics and Quantum Physics is = not scale because if it was we would know that specific wavelength by = now, no, the difference is in your professional status and mine- the GUT = accounts for our differences so how can they be seen as differences.?" We impose difference in the same phenomena because that is our function = as observers. When we observe ourselves we find self-similarity. Yes order decays into chaos, but order emerges from chaos a whole lot = more. Hyperspace bleeds order into the fractures of the manifold, we are the = perpetual scab on the wounds (or origin ratios of interference) of the = membranes. =20 Rip heal rip heal rip heal rip heal rip heal rip heal rip heal.galaxies = flying apart from eachother to make room on the event horizon.Just = because I have dandruff doesn't mean my scalp will disappear.and just = because the flakes don't reassemble into another scalp doesn't mean they = won't millions of years from now.=20 So the laws of entropy, so emphasized by many as dominant, is not a law = of decay but simply half of a law of change. Actually, as Schauberger stated one half must have a natural bias and = that it must be the implosive, ordering, cooling negentropic half; this = is the bias of the whole towards hyperspace's dark/mirror open = dimensions. The cycle is fully visible from the POV of a metacluster of galaxies and = in the energy bands of atoms.=20 Macro to Micro Non-local transmission of inertia to/from galactic cores, nuclei = intercepted via Alfven pulses. Approach speed of light at precisely the = same moment they reach the center. Core fractures energy according to = origin ratio and reverse quantum foam coarsening rules. Complexification, Stellation, aggregation Micro to Macro Scalar gradient shears off event horizon and Alfven waves bifurcate into = twin photon along strange attactor - event horizon shears off Gravity = wells and Alfven waves bifurcate into twin star systems along spiral = arms Scale Invariant Self orbiting spheres pump the strange attractor into arching plasma = filaments. Filaments absorb surface area of the ZPM and the space around the = filaments relaxes and draws out the power of the nuclei, feedback = iteration.. Accretion of plasma mirror, perpendicular interference now possible = Entropy Attractor Enabled. Iteration. Without entropy, negentropy wouldn't be possible.=20 The reason free energy is possible is because energy is really surface = area and the only difference between open and closed systems is time. We = can borrow energy/surface area from far away right now and it will be = filled in again before we actually do it. ------=_NextPart_000_0062_01C5CA4B.29710D80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In order to re-load the = Matrix of=20 free-energy.... on a healthy heaping grass-guzzling word salad... and = with a=20 double serving of window dressing, no-less.... there is = this:
 
"You can=92t measure anything in a *Holofractaline Model* because = everything is simultaneously becoming local at different rates, and = everything=20 is alot of variables...why chaos is the only math you need to=20 know..."
 
.... yes, it is a magnoficent = piece of=20 verbiage floating around in cyberspace these days, written by an anymous = contributor. But wait ! as Ron Popeil of vege-matic fame (and = no=20 stranger to word-salad) might implore: There is more! Much = more!
 
After reading this GUT-wrencher, the = reason that=20 authorial-anonimity is fervently desired will be abundantly clear to = all, but=20 for me it is a quaint treasure of misbegotten humor, la-ti-dah punnage = and more=20 - certainly worthy of incorporation into the vortex archive. =
 
In fact there are a few instances of = wisdom=20 herein, interspersed with such fundamental apothegms=20 as "Without entropy, negentropy wouldn=92t be = possible, " but=20 all-in-all a jolly-good read unless you have better things to do. If = that is the=20 case, be sure to print it out first - as you never know when the TP has = run=20 out....
 
Can anyone divulge the name of the = author? ... I=20 don't think it is the Baron, as he would take credit, but maybe "Nora = Baron"=20 doing a totally tongue-in-cheek counter-spoof ??? Anyway, enjoy = !
 
 
 
 
The Laws of Negentropy in Macro and = Micro Scales in=20 a VSL Multiverse=20
           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;            =    =20 Or
           &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;      =20 An esoteric approach to the truth
 

The Physics Community produces a schism between old and new = every time=20 an experiment is conducted and contradictory results proven. = Compensatory=20 equations, revision and clutter result. While continuous theory and = experiment=20 continue this pattern with no regard for the careers founded on outdated = models=20 there are a few people who take it upon themselves to associate results = across=20 disciplines to recognize redundancy or corroborative phenomena. This = presents a=20 problem both to old ideas/careers and those who do the = association.
 
Unresolved issues of paradox, anomalies, and redundancy prohibit a = truly=20 comprehensive Theory of Everything. Compounding this is of course an = established=20 physics paradigm funded by industry interests as opposed to humanitarian = interests who have reason to be threatened by new data and speculation. = Attempts=20 to denounce new data and speculation as human fault are made in futility = as=20 there is technically never a consensus on which to base an argument in = the first=20 place, further, the paradox present in so many disciplines should be = evidence=20 enough that nobody can ever be wrong or right.
 
This being said let us look at why free energy is both possible and = impossible in the context of the first laws:
 
Energy can neither be created or destroyed;
For every action = there is an=20 equal and opposite reaction.
 
The question of Perpetual Motion, Free Energy, or OverUnity is the = primary=20 question in physics even though it is being asked in a hundred = ways.  Free=20 Energy as a functional device is not only a useful product it is = experimental=20 proof for the GUT. We Approach the GUT now through particle accelerators = which=20 don=92t necessarily reproduce natural phenomena, we observe the cosmos = with eyes=20 and machines which can only be synchronous or entrained to one dimension = at a=20 time, we observe non-local, non-linear phenomena only to record them in = local,=20 linear time and space.
 
To speculate about hyperdimensional physics is considered = unscientific=20 because of the great leaps one must make beyond the confines of an = observer.=20 This role of an observer is undeniable but is undermined by the stigma = of=20 metaphysics. What is the source of novelty in the world of humans? It is = not=20 dwelling on the known that=92s for sure. Novelty is conserved within the = association of variables of what is known; The great interdependency of = nature=20 assures that all may associate with all, that self-similarity is hidden = beneath=20 the constant change=85so to question the validity of a free energy = experiment=20 based on its source, the human mind, is ridiculous. The Physics = establishment=20 insists that science be based on known observed phenomena not some = delusional=20 fancy. If not for rogue scientists who recognize themselves as = experimental=20 proof, we would be living in a flat terracentric universe where men = cannot=20 fly.
 
A variable speed of light or VSL Multiverse is a deliberately = redundant=20 term. The UNIverse of linear time and mass (or to Bohm, the Explicate = Order) is=20 also a MULTIverse of several dimensions fractured and enfolded into the=20 UNIverse. We observe the UNIverse but are able to extrapolate the = mechanics of=20 hyperdimensional space mathematically. Our biology is biased towards the = Explicate but our mind CAN BECOME BIASED TOWARDS THE SUPER/IMPLICATE. = Mind has=20 been proven to be non-local as well as local. This proof is anecdotal = because as=20 is the case with ZPE the experimental proof is too self referential to = yield=20 positive or negative results. You can=92t measure anything in a = *Holofractaline=20 Model* because everything is simultaneously becoming local at different = rates,=20 and everything is alot of variables...why chaos is the only math you = need to=20 know...
 
=93They=94 say the bulk of the universe exists as dark/mirror = matter/energy=20 that can=92t be observed, they also say there was a big bang and the = universe will=20 fade into a homogenous thing void of movement and therefore form.
 
So this is the mainstream physics stance: that something they = can=92t see is=20 going to disappear=85I don=92t know, that just doesn=92t sound very = scientific. Oh=20 wait, they probably meant that the part of the universe we observe will=20 disappear, silly me=85
 
The whole question of free energy actually does hinge on this=20 premise.
 
We must OBEY the KNOWN =93laws=94 of physics or we are = pseudo-science hobbyists=20 and delusional, unofficial proponents.
 
So lets begin with a simple law I just made up: =93Time is relative = to the=20 mass of the observer=94
 
Prove it.
 
What is time? What is relative? What is mass? What is an Observer? = Is to=20 the, of the?
 
Grammatical Equations
 
What =3D ZPE
Is =3D Asymetry from ZPE
To The=3D movement, = difference
Of=20 The =3D closed system
 
Pronounciation =3D Time
Syntax =3D relativity
What is =3D = Mass
An =3D=20 Paradox =96 object/observation =96 is to - words/language
???? =3D = Observer
 
 
We are the description of our  process and that is the process = which=20 we are
 
So a free energy device must not obey negentropic laws instead of = entropic=20 laws, but rather become biased towards the negentropic aspect of the = singular=20 law.
 
Find the self-similarity under all this novelty, find the scale = invariant=20 phenomena=85
 
=93The Speed of light is actually a measure of the mass of the = observer, not=20 velocity=94
 
=93Nothing attains velocity until it is observed, because until = then it is=20 locked into the uncollapsed Simulverse=94
 
=93All dipoles are two superpositioned monopoles/singularities, one = is naked=20 and omnipresent, its called the Zero Point Manifold, the other is a = quantum dot,=20 closed string, white hole, plank unit, etc,=85that is clothed in linear=20 time.=94
 
=93The transition point between Newtonian Physics and Quantum = Physics is not=20 scale because if it was we would know that specific wavelength by now, = no, the=20 difference is in your professional status and mine- the GUT accounts for = our=20 differences so how can they be seen as differences=85?=94
 
We impose difference in the same phenomena because that is our = function as=20 observers.
 
When we observe ourselves we find self-similarity.
 
Yes order decays into chaos, but order emerges from chaos a whole = lot=20 more.
 
Hyperspace bleeds order into the fractures of the manifold, we are = the=20 perpetual scab on the wounds (or origin ratios of interference) of the=20 membranes. 
 
Rip heal rip heal rip heal rip heal rip heal rip heal rip = heal=85galaxies=20 flying apart from eachother to make room on the event horizon=85Just = because I=20 have dandruff doesn=92t mean my scalp will disappear=85and just because = the flakes=20 don=92t reassemble into another scalp doesn=92t mean they won=92t = millions of years=20 from now.
 
So the laws of entropy, so emphasized by many as dominant, is not a = law of=20 decay but simply half of a law of change.
 
Actually, as Schauberger stated one half must have a natural bias = and that=20 it must be the implosive, ordering, cooling negentropic half; this is = the bias=20 of the whole towards hyperspace=92s dark/mirror open dimensions.
 
The cycle is fully visible from the POV of a metacluster of = galaxies and in=20 the energy bands of atoms.
 

Macro to Micro
 
Non-local transmission of inertia to/from galactic cores, nuclei=20 intercepted via Alfven pulses. Approach speed of light at precisely the = same=20 moment they reach the center. Core fractures energy according to origin = ratio=20 and reverse quantum foam coarsening rules.
 
Complexification, Stellation, aggregation
 
Micro to Macro
 
Scalar gradient shears off event horizon and Alfven waves bifurcate = into=20 twin photon  along strange attactor =96 event horizon  shears = off =20 Gravity wells and Alfven waves bifurcate into twin star systems along = spiral=20 arms
 
Scale Invariant
 
Self orbiting spheres pump the strange attractor into arching = plasma=20 filaments.
 
Filaments absorb surface area of the ZPM and the space around the = filaments=20 relaxes and draws out the power of the nuclei, feedback = iteration=85.
 
Accretion of plasma mirror, perpendicular interference now possible = Entropy=20 Attractor Enabled.
 
Iteration=85
 
Without entropy, negentropy wouldn=92t be possible.
 
The reason free energy is possible is because energy is really = surface area=20 and the only difference between open and closed systems is time. We can = borrow=20 energy/surface area from far away right now and it will be filled in = again=20 before we actually do it.
------=_NextPart_000_0062_01C5CA4B.29710D80-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 6 08:01:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j96F0nev030616; Thu, 6 Oct 2005 08:01:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j96F0lBb030586; Thu, 6 Oct 2005 08:00:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 08:00:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2005 10:59:01 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Off Topic: Not Sure of the Script In-reply-to: <2.2.32.20051006091100.00a0e79c pop.freeserve.net> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63644 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Grimer wrote: > > Like Jed, one may not agree on the assumptions, existence of God, divinity of > Christ, foundation of a teaching church with divine authority, etc. but I feel > sure that even Jed would agree, that given those assumptions, to restrict > the instructions on making the religious equivalent of nuclear explosives > to people intelligent and responsible, is perfectly reasonable. > > Cheers, > > Frank Grimer > > > IMO, another danger of the bible is its radioactive toxicity. (Luther used its explosive power). Without limiting exposure or using protective (interpretative) gear you could die from radiation poisoning. Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 6 08:23:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j96FNCUX011710; Thu, 6 Oct 2005 08:23:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j96FNAYv011688; Thu, 6 Oct 2005 08:23:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 08:23:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <4enh25$1gnhp11 mxip13a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.97,182,1125892800"; d="scan'208"; a="1635312673:sNHT21673878" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: OrionWorks Organization: OrionWorks To: CC: Subject: Re: Islands of Ignorance - and islands of reversed entropy Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 10:22:46 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63645 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harry sez: ... > The stage begins in adolescence but the age of completion > varies from individual to individual. There is nothing magic > about the ages 16,18,21,30,55,99... > > > Harry Yes, 99... if you're lucky. ;-) Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 6 10:32:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j96HVcE8026529; Thu, 6 Oct 2005 10:31:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j96HVZm0026480; Thu, 6 Oct 2005 10:31:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 10:31:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20051006173058750.B71681C000ED mwinf3001.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20051006173059.009fae14 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2005 18:30:59 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Off Topic: Not Sure of the Script Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63647 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:23 am 06/10/2005 -0400, Stephen wrote: > Indeed, the particular collection was selected by a committee, and to > this day there doesn't seem to be complete agreement on which books > should be included in the Canon -- Wisdom and Maccabees, in particular, > are included in the main body in some versions and relegated to the > apocrypha in others, IIRC. As far as I recall Maccabees was rejected by Protestants at the reformation because it implied the existence of purgatory. I don't know who rejected Wisdom or why. However, once one rejects the apostolic succession and ceases to see it as divinely guided there in no reason why one should not pick and choose whatever bits of the bible suits your present mood. Indeed, the very word heresy means one who chooses.... ========================================== [Middle English heresie, from Old French, from Late Latin haeresis, from Late Greek hairesis, from Greek, a choosing, faction, from haireisthai, to choose, middle voice of hairein, to take.] ========================================== ....which is why of course protestantism keeps breaking up into smaller and smaller fractions who are only united by their detestation of Chelsea Football Club's doppelganger ;-) > Jewish tradition is somewhat more explicit about this, with the books of > scripture divided into several categories depending on various factors, > including whether the book's presence in scripture has been challenged > (the category of books which have been challenged is the "antilegomena", > which, ironically, includes Ezekiel, which one could argue is among the > most important books of the OT, but so it goes, humans rarely agree > completely about anything). .....and even catholics are only required to agree with the limited canon of defined doctrine and morals. 8-) For example, they have to believe in the existence of hell but (as modernists never tire of pointing out) they don't have to believe that anyone goes there. Cheers, Frank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 6 10:46:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j96HkKns001786; Thu, 6 Oct 2005 10:46:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j96HkIrE001768; Thu, 6 Oct 2005 10:46:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 10:46:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20051006174555220.35B871C00087 mwinf3012.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20051006174555.00a0cf0c pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2005 18:45:55 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Off Topic: Not Sure of the Script Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63648 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:59 am 06/10/2005 -0500, you wrote: >Grimer wrote: > > >> >> Like Jed, one may not agree on the assumptions, existence of God, divinity of >> Christ, foundation of a teaching church with divine authority, etc. but I feel >> sure that even Jed would agree, that given those assumptions, to restrict >> the instructions on making the religious equivalent of nuclear explosives >> to people intelligent and responsible, is perfectly reasonable. >> >> Cheers, >> >> Frank Grimer >> >> >> > > IMO, another danger of the bible is its radioactive toxicity. (Luther used > its explosive power). Without limiting exposure or using protective > (interpretative) gear you could die from radiation poisoning. > > Harry Ooo...Much worse than that Harry. ;-) You could find yourself on the left hand side of the judgment seat and hear those terrifying words. 'Depart from Me, ye cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: But I'm sure that my fellow Vortexians will have earned themselves lots of brownie points for defending the truth of cold fusion against the porcine anti-christs. 8-) Cheers. Frank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 6 10:56:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j96HuKL6007040; Thu, 6 Oct 2005 10:56:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j96HuHYo006979; Thu, 6 Oct 2005 10:56:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 10:56:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2005 13:54:25 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Off Topic: Not Sure of the Script In-reply-to: <2.2.32.20051006173059.009fae14 pop.freeserve.net> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63649 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Let's not forget that Catholics reject the Gnostic texts, and that Jews reject the new testament, and that Atheists reject God, and that Muslims reject unbelief, and that Buddhists reject themselves, and that Agnostics don't know what to reject. The story of religion is a history of rejections. ;-) ~violins~ Harry Grimer wrote: > At 10:23 am 06/10/2005 -0400, Stephen wrote: > >> Indeed, the particular collection was selected by a committee, and to >> this day there doesn't seem to be complete agreement on which books >> should be included in the Canon -- Wisdom and Maccabees, in particular, >> are included in the main body in some versions and relegated to the >> apocrypha in others, IIRC. > > > As far as I recall Maccabees was rejected by Protestants at the reformation > because it implied the existence of purgatory. I don't know who rejected > Wisdom or why. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 6 11:56:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j96IuH6W007912; Thu, 6 Oct 2005 11:56:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j96IuALX007816; Thu, 6 Oct 2005 11:56:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 11:56:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] X-Originating-Email: [caliostro1795 hotmail.com] X-Sender: caliostro1795 hotmail.com From: "Alex Caliostro" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: pluginamerica Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2005 12:55:53 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Oct 2005 18:55:54.0203 (UTC) FILETIME=[940B12B0:01C5CAA7] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63650 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: dontcrush.com is now http://www.pluginamerica.com/ promoting plug-in hybrids and evs _____ -alex _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 6 12:32:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j96JVEwv027375; Thu, 6 Oct 2005 12:31:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j96JULPP026800; Thu, 6 Oct 2005 12:30:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 12:30:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000401c5caac$56369310$d0dbb446 VINCE> From: "Vince Cockeram" To: References: Subject: unsubscribe Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 12:29:57 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2670 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2670 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63651 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 6 13:18:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j96KINb3022726; Thu, 6 Oct 2005 13:18:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j96KILdJ022709; Thu, 6 Oct 2005 13:18:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 13:18:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] X-Originating-Email: [caliostro1795 hotmail.com] X-Sender: caliostro1795 hotmail.com From: "Alex Caliostro" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: ses makes bizweek Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2005 14:17:59 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Oct 2005 20:17:59.0980 (UTC) FILETIME=[0C08FEC0:01C5CAB3] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63652 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: i wonder if my subdivision would like to invest in a few stirling energy systems' 25 kW gensets http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/05_37/b3950067_mz018.htm _____ -alex _________________________________________________________________ Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 6 09:29:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j96GSj6p020050; Thu, 6 Oct 2005 09:29:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j96GShH8020029; Thu, 6 Oct 2005 09:28:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 09:28:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: ThomasClark123 aol.com Message-ID: <1a9.40c17970.3076aa94 aol.com> Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 12:28:04 EDT Subject: Electrostatic Hover Cars To: A-albionic_Subscription yahoogroups.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com CC: ThomasClark123 aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1128616084" X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5039 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: <1gX4x.A.54E.7CVRDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63646 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friendsD Status: RO X-Status: A -------------------------------1128616084 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Electrostatic Hover Cars Electrostatic hovers cars which operate by utilizing high voltage electrostatic repulsion forces (Biefeld/Brown effect, Polarity plus on top side and negative on bottom side of the car's shell with a neutral band around the middle edge.) are discussed in many models of flying saucer plans as posted at (http://www.zephyrtechnology.com/UFO_Technology/Build_Flying_Saucer_/body_build_flying _saucer_.html) . However an electrostatic hover car which hovers just a few inches to a few feet above the ground and no more, may prove to be more practical, legal and easier to build than a flying saucer, since the cars strictly speaking do not fly but simply hover just above the ground and no flying license would be needed to use them. Some advantages of electrostatic hover cars are that they are noiseless, do not wear out roads, nor need roads or tires. Electrostatic hover cars if ever built to work, could only be practically and realistically developed for small preplaned communities which have been designed to use such cars and which collectively agreed to use such cars which would not effect the mass economy or car industry for at least a hundred years. A company trust which decides to build a preplaned community could then make an agreement with an automobile manufacturer to build the electrostatic car body and engine parts since the number of cars built would be many thousands and would not effect the mass market or economy so that automobile companies may be willing to builds such cars. Preplaned communities which have agreed to use electrostatic hover cars can also agree to use computer systems in the cars which are preprogrammed to monitor the speed limit of the car, and to cause the car to avoid all dangerous objects by slowing down or moving around them. Baron Von Volsung, http://www.rhfweb.com/baron, Email: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html President Thomas D. Clark, Email: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html, Personal Web Page: http://www.rhfweb.com/personal New Age Production's Inc., http://www.rhfweb.com/newage Star Haven Community Services, at http://www.rhfweb.com/sh Radiation Health Foundation Trust at http://www.rhfweb.com/ Making a difference one person at a time Get informed. Inform others. -------------------------------1128616084 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Electrostatic Hover Cars
 
Electrostatic hovers cars which operate by utilizing high voltage elect= rostatic repulsion forces (Biefeld/Brown effect, Polarity plus on top s= ide and negative on bottom side of the car's shell with a neutral band=20= around the middle edge.) are discussed in many models of flying saucer=20= plans as posted at  (http://www.zephyrtechnology.com/UFO_Technology/Build_Fl= ying_Saucer_/body_build_flying_saucer_.html) .
 
However an electrostatic hover car which hovers just a few inches=20= to a few feet above the ground and no more, may prove to be more practical,&= nbsp;legal  and easier to build than a flying saucer, since the ca= rs strictly speaking do not fly but simply hover just above the ground and n= o flying license would be needed to use them.  Some advantage= s of electrostatic hover cars are that they are noiseless, do not wear out r= oads, nor need roads or tires.
 
Electrostatic hover cars if ever built to work, could only be practical= ly and realistically developed for small preplaned communities which have be= en designed to use such cars and which collectively agreed to use such cars=20= which would not effect the mass economy or car industry for at least a hundr= ed years.   A company trust which decides to build a preplaned com= munity could then make an agreement with an automobile manufacturer to build= the electrostatic car body and engine parts since the number of cars built=20= would be many thousands and would not effect the mass market or economy so t= hat automobile companies may be willing to builds such cars. 
 
Preplaned communities which have agreed to use electrostatic hover = ;cars can also agree to use computer systems in the cars which are preprogra= mmed to monitor the speed limit of the car, and to cause the car to avoid al= l dangerous objects by slowing down or moving around them.
 
Baron Von Volsung, http://www.rhfweb.com/baron, Email: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html
President Thomas D. Clark,= Email: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html,
Pers= onal Web Page: http://www.rhfweb.com/personal
New Age Productio= n's Inc., http://www.rhfweb.com/newage
Star Haven Community Service= s, at = http://www.rhfweb.com/sh
Radiation Health Foundation Trust at http://www.rhfweb= .com/

Making a difference one person at a time
Get informed= . Inform others.
-------------------------------1128616084-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 6 13:49:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j96KnCb0008853; Thu, 6 Oct 2005 13:49:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j96KnB1v008835; Thu, 6 Oct 2005 13:49:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 13:49:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 13:48:55 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: A-albionic_Subscription yahoogroups.com, ThomasClark123@aol.com Subject: Re: Electrostatic Hover Cars In-Reply-To: <1a9.40c17970.3076aa94 aol.com> Message-ID: References: <1a9.40c17970.3076aa94 aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63653 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, 6 Oct 2005 ThomasClark123 aol.com wrote: > However an electrostatic hover car which hovers just a few inches to a few > feet above the ground and no more, may prove to be more practical, legal and > easier to build than a flying saucer, since the cars strictly speaking do not > fly but simply hover just above the ground and no flying license would be needed > to use them. Some advantages of electrostatic hover cars are that they are > noiseless, do not wear out roads, nor need roads or tires. What do you mean "practical?" As far as I'm aware, nobody has ever demonstrated any sort of electrostatic "hover" effect which can lift large mass. (Have you?) On the contrary, a charged pair of planes as you describe should be attracted downwards towards the slightly-conducting Earth surface, no? (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 6 14:46:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j96LjxHc010963; Thu, 6 Oct 2005 14:46:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j96LjrLZ010937; Thu, 6 Oct 2005 14:45:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 14:45:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: ThomasClark123 aol.com Message-ID: <193.49a4b651.3076f4f4 aol.com> Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 17:45:24 EDT Subject: Re: Electrostatic Hover Cars To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1128635124" X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5039 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63654 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -------------------------------1128635124 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/6/2005 4:49:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, billb eskimo.com writes: What do you mean "practical?" As far as I'm aware, nobody has ever demonstrated any sort of electrostatic "hover" effect which can lift large mass. (Have you?) On the contrary, a charged pair of planes as you describe should be attracted downwards towards the slightly-conducting Earth surface, no? I have not tested such ideas yet but John W. Keely demonstrated a hover like car in 1800's which may have worked off of vibratory acoustics. I just assumed that the saucer pages that I read had tested some of their ideas. Also the Michael J. Fox Back to the Future Movies seem to indicate that hover skate boards work somehow in the near future? Baron Von Volsung, http://www.rhfweb.com/baron, Email: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html President Thomas D. Clark, Email: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html, Personal Web Page: http://www.rhfweb.com/personal New Age Production's Inc., http://www.rhfweb.com/newage Star Haven Community Services, at http://www.rhfweb.com/sh Radiation Health Foundation Trust at http://www.rhfweb.com/ Making a difference one person at a time Get informed. Inform others. -------------------------------1128635124 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In a message dated 10/6/2005 4:49:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, billb es= kimo.com writes:
What do you mean "practical?"  As far as=20= I'm aware, nobody has ever
demonstrated any sort of electrostatic "hover"= effect which can lift large
mass.  (Have you?)  On the contrar= y, a charged pair of planes as you
describe should be attracted downwards= towards the slightly-conducting
Earth surface, no?
I have not tested such ideas yet but John W. Keely demonstrated a hover like car in 1800's which may have worked off of vibratory=20= acoustics.  I just assumed that the saucer pages that I read had t= ested some of their ideas.  Also the Michael J. Fox Back to the Future=20= Movies seem to indicate that hover skate boards work somehow in the near fut= ure?
 
Baron Von Volsung, http://www.rhfweb.com/baron, Email: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html
President Thomas D. Clark,= Email: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html,
Pers= onal Web Page: http://www.rhfweb.com/personal
New Age Productio= n's Inc., http://www.rhfweb.com/newage
Star Haven Community Service= s, at = http://www.rhfweb.com/sh
Radiation Health Foundation Trust at http://www.rhfweb= .com/

Making a difference one person at a time
Get informed= . Inform others.
-------------------------------1128635124-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 6 17:40:42 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j970eCDv030923; Thu, 6 Oct 2005 17:40:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j970eAxF030898; Thu, 6 Oct 2005 17:40:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 17:40:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: DP and Coal. What's The Story? X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 8324edccdbae1c0007349b58b3c30403 Reply-To: michael.foster excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20051007003947.27B0F3E35 xprdmailfe6.nwk.excite.com> Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 20:39:47 -0400 (EDT) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63656 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rhong Dhong wrote: > Depolymerization supposedly makes oil out of just > about anything. > How does DP compare in this respect with other methods > to process oil shale into oil? > Would it be possible to turn out the oil from it much > faster and with simpler processing than with corncobs > and turkey guts? Hell, the stuff is mostly oil to > start with. > Maybe mines wouldn't produce coal, but oil, with a > mini-DP plant at every mine. I don't think you'd have to go as far as depolymerization. Look up the Karrick process at: www.rexresearch.com This process not only produces a petroleum product suitable for automobile fuel, but makes a form of carbon suitable as a replacement for coke in steelmaking. Considering that good coking coal is in short supply worldwide, it would seem that this process should be revived. Oh yeah, and you can use the heat from the process to generate electricity. Mr. Karrick's pilot plant was still mostly intact in the back parking lot of the U.S. Bureau of Mines when I worked there. He was still a local legend even though it had already been thirty years or more since the pilot plant last ran. BTW, Karrick's operation couldn't have been 100 yards from where Pons and Fleischmann did their work. Is there an alternative energy chronosynclastic infundibulum focused on that spot? M. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 6 18:07:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9716oFv012662; Thu, 6 Oct 2005 18:07:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9715nmV012136; Thu, 6 Oct 2005 18:05:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 18:05:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: SES X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 8324edccdbae1c0007349b58b3c30403 Reply-To: michael.foster excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20051007010527.7EE563DDF xprdmailfe6.nwk.excite.com> Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 21:05:27 -0400 (EDT) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63657 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thanks for the ref, Alex. Check this out: > DAYTIME ONLY > Why hasn't Stirling Energy's technology made more > of a splash in the power business? "Our dilemma > has always been how to get costs down," explains > Osborn. The dish assemblies now run $250,000 > each. But that's because most have been > handcrafted in sporadic lots of one or two > units.Building a group of 40 or so would trim the cost > to $150,000 each, Osborn estimates. With real mass > production, that could drop by 50%. Using my proposed fresnel system, they could probably reduce costs by more like 90%. However, I've been through stuff like that for literally decades. People working with large corporations and government agencies actually don't want to hear it when you can reduce their costs dramatically. This goes double it you can actually demostrate it before their very eyes. I suppose I'll make a half-hearted attempt to convince these folks, but I know what my chances are. Been there at least twenty times, got the t-shirts, don' wanna go back. M. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 6 23:02:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9762JMt008390; Thu, 6 Oct 2005 23:02:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9762HqW008360; Thu, 6 Oct 2005 23:02:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 23:02:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Sealed Beam Tungsten-Halogen Headlamp OU Solar Collectors X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 8324edccdbae1c0007349b58b3c30403 Reply-To: michael.foster excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20051007060128.CC6003E79 xprdmailfe6.nwk.excite.com> Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 02:01:28 -0400 (EDT) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63658 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Fred wrote: > I pointed a 250 watt heat lamp at the sun coming through a double-pane window > with a DVM hooked to the terminals. > Surprisingly after a couple of minutes there wasn't any readable voltage, > but there was a couple of microamps of current flow which dropped off as the > filament cooled. I was skeptical of your idea, thinking there would have to be another electrode inside the envelope to receive the boiled off electrons. But I thought, what the hell, maybe if you vary the intensity of the sunlight by blocking it frequently you might be able to get something to happen. I tried both the parabolic reflectors that come with the lamps and nothing happened, no microvolts, no microamps. So then I used an F 0.7 fresnel to focus the light onto the filament from the side of a quartz-halogen lamp and you can get the filament red hot. I'm afraid I still got no reading with both analog and digital meters. I'm assuming you meant to measure across the filament itself, which is what I did. Fortunately, the whole series of attempts took no more than ten minutes, since I had everything close at hand. Your result from the heat lamp, as those filaments are fairly large, might have been a thermocouple effect from unequal heating. What do you think? Hey, an actual experiment discussed on Vortex! M. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 7 00:54:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j977s9Dw025920; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 00:54:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j977s8Yq025904; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 00:54:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 00:54:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 02:53:41 -0600 Subject: Harness Hydro Power with a Trompe To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: HTML Mime mail class (http://www.phpguru.org) From: wesleybruce iinet.net.au Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_12466ad3871792cb2dabb2789da59395" Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Oct 2005 07:56:34.0159 (UTC) FILETIME=[A2D527F0:01C5CB14] Resent-Message-ID: <27Tmb.A.sUG.fmiRDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63659 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=_12466ad3871792cb2dabb2789da59395 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --=_12466ad3871792cb2dabb2789da59395 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
3D""
This page was sent to you by: wesleybruce iinet.net.au
Friday, October 7, 2005

Harness Hydro Power with a Trompe=

Using water pressure to make free compressed air.
Anyone really serious about green energy needs to kno= w about the trompe; a compressed air producing hydropower system. A few tho= usand of these on our smaller rivers will produce sigificant amounts of en= ergy from slow flowing low head hydropower.

Top Articles for Friday, October 7, 2005

=20 Green Gazette

=20 Pay Less at the Pump: The Hybrid Revolution

=20 Pellet Stoves Wood Energy For All

= =20 All About Insulation

=20 Super Solar Homes Everyone can Afford

=20 Fuel Economy and Ecology: Green Means Go

=20 Making Wiser Transportation Choices: Average Gas Mileage

= =20 Septic System Basics

= =20 Wood-fired Central Heat

=20 Down to Earth Homes

Privacy Policy | C= opyright 2005 Ogden Publications, INC.

 

 

 

=0D --=_12466ad3871792cb2dabb2789da59395-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 7 01:18:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j978Hgha004198; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 01:17:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j978Hfs4004188; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 01:17:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 01:17:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Message-ID: <43462EE8.8090406 iinet.net.au> Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 18:16:40 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Harness Hydro Power with a Trompe References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63660 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Another Trompe paper, much more up to date. http://www.engineering.lancs.ac.uk/REGROUPS/LUREG/papers/WREC2005/FCT-WIDDEN.pdf While most alternative energy technologies won't compete with with cold fusion when it arrives; maintainance free systems like the trompe, roof top solar, solar windows and other set and forget power system will hold their own against the eventual cold fusion jugganaught. wesleybruce iinet.net.au wrote: > > > > > This page was sent to you by: wesleybruce iinet.net.au > > > Friday, October 7, 2005 > > > Harness Hydro Power with a Trompe > > > Using water pressure to make free compressed air. > > Anyone really serious about green energy needs to know about the > trompe; a compressed air producing hydropower system. A few thousand > of these on our smaller rivers will produce sigificant amounts of > energy from slow flowing low head hydropower. > > > Top Articles for Friday, October 7, 2005 > > Green Gazette > > Pay Less at the Pump: The Hybrid Revolution > > > Pellet Stoves Wood Energy For All > > > All About Insulation > > > Super Solar Homes Everyone can Afford > > > Fuel Economy and Ecology: Green Means Go > > > Making Wiser Transportation Choices: Average Gas Mileage > > > Septic System Basics > > > Wood-fired Central Heat > > > Down to Earth Homes > > Privacy Policy > | Copyright > 2005 Ogden Publications, INC. > > > > > > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 7 02:15:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j979F1Ar031398; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 02:15:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j979ExYn031389; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 02:14:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 02:14:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <193.49a4b651.3076f4f4 aol.com> References: <193.49a4b651.3076f4f4 aol.com> Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 04:14:38 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: Electrostatic Hover Cars Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="============_-1083446003==_ma============" Resent-Message-ID: <3FefgC.A.ZqH.TyjRDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63661 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --============_-1083446003==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Ha la, ha la, the Baron's back. >In a message dated 10/6/2005 4:49:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >billb eskimo.com writes: > >What do you mean "practical?" As far as I'm aware, nobody has ever >demonstrated any sort of electrostatic "hover" effect which can lift large > There was an article published in either Popular Science or Mechanics in the 1950's about the flying bed spring. It levitated itself. It worked great until it hit the end of the drop cord. Of course it consumed more power per unit of weight levitated than a rocket, I have not tested such ideas yet but John W. Keely demonstrated a hover like car in 1800's which may have worked off of vibratory acoustics. I just assumed that the If you ever figure out what Keely was talking about, and get a design for that machine Baron we'd all love to see it. --============_-1083446003==_ma============ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Re: Electrostatic Hover Cars
Ha la, ha la, the Baron's back.

In a message dated 10/6/2005 4:49:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, billb eskimo.com writes:
What do you mean "practical?"  As far as I'm aware, nobody has ever
demonstrated any sort of electrostatic "hover" effect which can lift large


There was an article published in either Popular Science or Mechanics in the 1950's about the flying bed spring. It levitated itself. It worked great until it hit the end of the drop cord. Of course it consumed more power per unit of weight levitated than a rocket,

I have not tested such ideas yet but John W. Keely demonstrated a hover like car in 1800's which may have worked off of vibratory acoustics.  I just assumed that the

If you ever figure out what Keely was talking about, and get a design for that machine Baron we'd all love to see it.
--============_-1083446003==_ma============-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 7 02:30:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j979Tbvx006692; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 02:29:53 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j979TWiM006609; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 02:29:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 02:29:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAA+k= Message-ID: <43463FE6.4060505 iinet.net.au> Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 19:29:10 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Harness Hydro Power with a Trompe References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63662 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Third trombe paper. More details on the trombe and siphon systems being designed by the Engineering Department at Lancaster University. http://www.engineering.lancs.ac.uk/REGROUPS/LUREG/Research%20Home.htm http://www.engineering.lancs.ac.uk/REGROUPS/LUREG/papers/EcononicLowHeadHydroWidden2004.pdf Their doing excellent wave power work. I've studied several hundred wave power systems the frog looks good. A good history of the wave power work is on their site. http://www.engineering.lancs.ac.uk/REGROUPS/LUREG/Research%20Home.htm The 1970's Lancaster Flexible Bag was a very good power technology but I happen to know that someone in the British Department of Energy rewrote a positive Scientific Review Summery to make it negative. By the time the sabotage was detected the men responsible were representing British nuclear fuels in the Caribbean. Funny thing was the Caribbeans had no nuclear power systems! But it also lacked extradition treaties. ;-) If you send somthing to a govenment department that has skeptics in it make sure you hand a hard copy to the minister not a departmental lacky. Word and PDF files can be made to say anything with a few hours of editing. My source for the story was 1980's Habatat magazine. Then one of the better environment journals. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 7 03:16:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j97AG6au026855; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 03:16:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j97AG4x2026833; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 03:16:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 03:16:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=tKzcVtsoQhhd19sGKNAFtljJITv99O3JuwHHyXcaeDb3GEgLoWTnqm0ezF+5GGr+; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22005105791452630 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Sealed Beam Tungsten-Halogen Headlamp OU Solar Collectors Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 04:14:52 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94099bcc00ed9783bc2b08e8fa670c05f80350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63663 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Michael Foster wrote: > > Fortunately, the whole series of attempts took no more than ten minutes, > since I had everything close at hand. Your result from the heat lamp, as > those filaments are fairly large, might have been a thermocouple effect > from unequal heating. What do you think? > I think that the effect definitely was a W filament -Nickel support wire, thermoelectric "thermocouple effect" due to uneven heating of the W filament. Since the filament resistance change from ~5.2 ohms cold to ~ 6.0 ohms "warm" is a long way from the ~57.00 ohms hot resistance of a 250 watt 120 volt heat lamp the femtowatt power 4.0e-6^2 * 2e-4 = 3.2e-15 watts developed. ain't much to brag about. IOW, the W-Ni junctions are symmetrical and would cancel each other out with even heating of the filament. Would a diode get around this cancelation ?? > > Hey, an actual experiment discussed on Vortex! > Must be the weather. :-) Too bad there isn't a way to connect to the aluminum reflector coating to see if there is a Thermionic Converter effect going on. This is why I want to see if the W-Halogen flood lamps PAR 38 120 watt-120 volt do better, even though this bulb size (4.75 inch dia) can only focus about 12 watts of sun energy. Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Michael Foster wrote:
>
> Fortunately, the whole series of attempts took no more than ten minutes,
> since I had everything close at hand. Your result from the heat lamp, as
> those filaments are fairly large, might have been a thermocouple effect
> from unequal heating.  What do you think?
>  
 
I think that the effect definitely was a W filament -Nickel support wire, thermoelectric "thermocouple effect"
due to uneven heating of the W filament. Since the filament resistance change from ~5.2 ohms cold
to ~ 6.0 ohms "warm" is a long way from the ~57.00 ohms hot resistance of a 250 watt 120 volt heat lamp
the femtowatt power 4.0e-6^2 * 2e-4 =  3.2e-15 watts developed. ain't much to brag about.
 
IOW, the W-Ni junctions are symmetrical and would cancel each other out with even heating of the filament.
 
Would a diode get around this cancelation ??
>
> Hey, an actual experiment discussed on Vortex!
>
Must be the weather.  :-)
 
Too bad there isn't a way to connect to the aluminum reflector coating to
see if there is a Thermionic Converter effect going on. This is why I want
to see if the W-Halogen flood lamps PAR 38 120 watt-120 volt do better, even though this
bulb size (4.75 inch dia) can only focus about 12 watts of sun energy.
 
Frederick
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 7 04:02:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j97B2RHI013662; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 04:02:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j97B2Ma0013616; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 04:02:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 04:02:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=R7B6xUw7tf1NZHWIiOsDLbCpzs6xu0+Hwj6z64XH1dQxmbOyN2rzpkkBUlNtsrfH; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22005105710039120 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: RE: Robert Green steam engine vs Hero's Engine Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 05:00:39 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9405435e0cd40a2cf279e6dbaa8edf52c18350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.208 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63664 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII John Steck wrote: > > Could just be how I am looking at it, but aren't these rotary to linear > designs? Don't see how it would the other direction (unless the piston axis > were at an angle to the rotation shaft). That looks to be the Green patent, > bi-axial force tied to a rotating member. > The ones I recall are called "Pneumatic Piston" or "Rotary Plate" motors, John. Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

John Steck wrote:
>
> Could just be how I am looking at it, but aren't these rotary to linear
> designs? Don't see how it would the other direction (unless the piston axis
> were at an angle to the rotation shaft).  That looks to be the Green patent,
> bi-axial force tied to a rotating member.
>
The ones I recall are called "Pneumatic Piston" or "Rotary Plate" motors, John.
 
Frederick
 
 
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 7 08:05:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j97F4wm2000677; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 08:05:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j97F4v6d000642; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 08:04:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 08:04:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: space elevator testing Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 11:07:07 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <8s39k11tn9phq2hs6asl1fs173lj8l7s1r@4ax.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200510071107.07329.rockcast earthlink.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j97F4a9r032723 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63665 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thursday 06 October 2005 05:36, thomas malloy wrote: > >In reply to Alex Caliostro's message of Tue, 04 Oct 2005 09:55:22 > >-0600: > > Robin van Spaandonk posted > > >Hi, > >[snip] > > > > >Space Elevator Concept Undergoes “Reel” World Testing > > > >This is pointless as long as there are no known materials with > >sufficient strength to do the job (or even come anywhere near). > >When the best we have only reaches 3-400 km, and needs to go 36000 > >km, we are still a long way short of the mark. > > > >Furthermore, at normal atomic separation distances, the bond > >energy would have to exceed that of any known chemical bond by > >about a factor of 10 to make it possible, > > That's how it seems to me. The people who are experimenting with the > Space Elevator seem to believe differently. > > 8 to quote: In a town full of candlestick makers, everyone lives in the light, In a town full of thieves, there is only one candle, and everyone lives in the night. .....for the candleholder will not show his light for fear of theft! and to paraphrase. The folks at liftport.com and other companies working on this, and scientists with vision like Dr. Bradley Edwards know the potential of these buckminsterfullerenes and have tested them and found the strength there. It yet remains to manufacture that same strength into a continuous ribbon. Six months ago there was no ability to even make the ribbon. Now there is. We are a forum of the scientifically curious, or at least ideally so. I believe that the spirit of Gene Mallove is still here among us. I have faith that a way will be found to strengthen the SWCNT ribbon sufficiently. It may not be the theoretical ideal, as that I feel is a kind of asymptote that is approachable but not attainable, like a tangent value of unity is also an asymptote. The economically feasible product that emerges might just be a acceptable margin over the minimum necessary for practical use. There may be other engineering problems in the future, like twist and electrical conduction. However, some new discoveries involving quantum dots' recently discovered ability to self arrange into conductors and non conductors at nano scale suggest solution pathways here as well. Those quantum dots and their abilities suggest other benefits such as the idea that Moore's law may become exponential. For those who watch science fiction like Star Gate and have seen the fanciful 'crystal electronics' in the supposed advanced tech equipment possessed by the show's off planet foreigners, these crystals suggest a path for these quantum dot circuits. These crystals can be huge megascale integrated circuits in a crystal sheath. With wireless communication and power transmission via the backplane, connectors become unecessary. Connectors have always been the first line of failure in electrical circuits. Perhaps these black boxes on the foreigner's craft and in the stargates are the future of our electronics as well. I clearly remember when as a technician I had the unviable task of replacing a 60 pin card edge connector in restricted space and having less than an inch of service loop to de-solder and re-solder and keep all the leads to the proper destinations. Wireless connectors would be soooooo good. This is not science fiction. We are earning these discoveries whether the easy way having them given to us and reverse engineering or the hard and longer way doing the enabling techs first. Standing Bear From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 7 12:36:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j97JZXRH001670; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 12:35:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j97JZUCg001649; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 12:35:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 12:35:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=hq9WOnKOhVuFMRsXC3c0XLxF2KcDGEnXPW9bkcrE6Bk15+3DBA2fCu3WsyDj6xyu; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22005105718343200 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Sealed Beam Tungsten-Halogen Headlamp OU Solar Collectors Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 13:34:03 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9408e6775141d6b3f032a4a315c28e84a9a350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.182 Resent-Message-ID: <46msxD.A.rZ.C4sRDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63666 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII I posted earlier: > > Too bad there isn't a way to connect to the aluminum reflector coating to > see if there is a Thermionic Converter effect going on. This is why I want > to see if the W-Halogen flood lamps PAR 38 120 watt-120 volt do better, even though this > bulb size (4.75 inch dia) can only focus about 12 watts of sun energy. > Astute calculations show that dissociation of an Iodine molecule at the filament, with uptake and subsequent discharge of an electron attached to an Iodine atom at the bulb (internal) reflector coating could yield up to 20 amperes at ~ 0.5 volts from the 12 watts of solar energy focused on a filament of 1 square cm area. Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
I posted earlier:
>
> Too bad there isn't a way to connect to the aluminum reflector coating to
> see if there is a Thermionic Converter effect going on. This is why I want
> to see if the W-Halogen flood lamps PAR 38 120 watt-120 volt do better, even though this
> bulb size (4.75 inch dia) can only focus about 12 watts of sun energy.
>
 
Astute calculations show that dissociation of an Iodine molecule at the filament, with
uptake and subsequent discharge of an electron attached to an Iodine atom
at the bulb (internal) reflector coating could yield up to 20 amperes at  ~ 0.5 volts from
the 12 watts of solar energy focused on a filament of 1 square cm area.
 
Frederick
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 7 14:36:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j97LZerJ030194; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 14:35:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j97LZcCB030181; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 14:35:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 14:35:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Sealed Beam Tungsten-Halogen Headlamp OU Solar Collectors X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 909b8a8ff0cae19159d456a4b333f05c Reply-To: michael.foster excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20051007213512.0C758B6C5 xprdmailfe20.nwk.excite.com> Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 17:35:12 -0400 (EDT) Resent-Message-ID: <1xZaQB.A.hXH.qouRDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63667 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Fred wrote: > Astute calculations show that dissociation > of an Iodine molecule at the filament, with > uptake and subsequent discharge of an > electron attached to an Iodine atom > at the bulb (internal) reflector coating could > yield up to 20 amperes at ~ 0.5 volts from > the 12 watts of solar energy focused on > filament of 1 square cm area. But here's the problem. The quartz halogen bulbs are usually small quartz tubes isolated from the reflectors, as opposed to something like the heat lamp you tried where there is a partial vacuum within the entire bulb including the outer envelope and the reflector. Usually, such bulbs have no halogens, but are simply argon filled at low pressure. You wouldn't want to use a floodlamp anyway, because by definition, their reflectors are not parabolic, but elliptical, and usually include some diffusion besides. Not a particularly good candidate for solar concentration. Please pardon me for being excessively punctilious about this, but I've actually played around with this basic idea for years. However, I never thought of a Langmuir type dissociation, but was merely entranced with the idea of solar driven vacuum tube thermo- electricity. I have in fact used old radio amplifier vacuum tubes, externally heating the filaments with focused sunlight. This produced encouraging but not useful results. The filaments are never really the right shape to get the desired concentration. Ditto lightbulbs. You would probably need a custom built tube to take advantage of the effect you would like to demonstrate. It wouldn't be a bad idea to resurrect Philo Farnsworth and ask him how to do it. The guy probably knew more about the practical aspects of vacuum tube thermo- electrics than anyone before or since. Anyone out there channeling Philo? ;-) Here's an odd possiblity, though. If you want to try to extract a charge from the internal reflector, you could try attaching aluminum foil to the outside of the bulb and then vary the exposure to sunlight. This would give a time varying charge to the reflector and then the capacitive coupling the the external foil might result in an accessible AC current. Just a thought. M. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 7 15:19:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j97MJSsX018946; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 15:19:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j97MJQYb018898; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 15:19:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 15:19:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=OqeBr5l3CEqoK8iXBOj93qKV0wrqB0eMv03/Xr6kNg4rv1kfokVOM0DdAvRW2bV/; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220051057211817880 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Sealed Beam Tungsten-Halogen Headlamp OU Solar Collectors Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 16:18:17 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94046f5839601a506b81d0bb80e3ad972b4350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.165.100 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63668 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michael Foster wrote: > > > Fred wrote: > > > Astute calculations show that dissociation > > of an Iodine molecule at the filament, with > > uptake and subsequent discharge of an > > electron attached to an Iodine atom > > at the bulb (internal) reflector coating could > > yield up to 20 amperes at ~ 0.5 volts from > > the 12 watts of solar energy focused on > > filament of 1 square cm area. > > But here's the problem. The quartz halogen bulbs > are usually small quartz tubes isolated from the > reflectors, A PAR (PARABOLIC ALUMINIZED REFLECTOR) Tungsten-Iodine flood lamp has the filament exposed to the iodine atmosphere. I used a millitorr for the calculations. > as opposed to something like the heat > lamp you tried where there is a partial vacuum within > the entire bulb including the outer envelope and the reflector. > Correct. I used that "flood type" heat lamp to see if I could get the filament to warm up some. > Usually, such bulbs have no halogens, but > are simply argon filled at low pressure. > Of Course. > > You wouldn't want to use a floodlamp anyway, because > by definition, their reflectors are not parabolic, > Go back. > > Please pardon me for being excessively punctilious > about this, but I've actually played around with this > basic idea for years. However, I never thought of a > Langmuir type dissociation, but was merely entranced > with the idea of solar driven vacuum tube thermo- > electricity. I have in fact used old radio amplifier > vacuum tubes, externally heating the filaments with > focused sunlight. This produced encouraging but not > useful results. The filaments are never really the right > shape to get the desired concentration. Ditto lightbulbs. > Right. But, the principle stands, and can be applied to the right emitter configuration. > > You would probably need a custom built tube to take > advantage of the effect you would like to demonstrate. > Or put a tungsten plate in a millitorr of iodine vapor, and a collector plate, and use your Fresnel concentrator on it. > > It wouldn't be a bad idea to resurrect Philo Farnsworth > and ask him how to do it. > Not practical. > >The guy probably knew more > about the practical aspects of vacuum tube thermo- > electrics than anyone before or since. Anyone out > there channeling Philo? ;-) > > Here's an odd possibility, though. If you want to try > to extract a charge from the internal reflector, you > could try attaching aluminum foil to the outside of the > bulb and then vary the exposure to sunlight. This > would give a time varying charge to the reflector and > then the capacitive coupling the external foil might > result in an accessible AC current. Just a thought. > Sounds reasonable, but, for minimal effort I only do thought experiments. Frederick > M. > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com > The most personalized portal on the Web! > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 7 16:14:02 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j97NDe1A008163; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 16:13:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j97NCxKU007915; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 16:12:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 16:12:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <01ae01c5cb94$99412970$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: Control of the Scientific Mind Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 16:12:32 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01AB_01C5CB59.EC3DD410" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63669 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01AB_01C5CB59.EC3DD410 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Who said vortex isn't way ahead of American Science? ...or at least Scientific American. This month they are featuring a = story on "mind control," Delgado, MKULTRA etc. written by (usually) the = most-misinformed science journalist of recent memory - at least the most = misinformed one knocking down a big paycheck (eliminating me from = contention). Only this time Horgan wrote a fairly decent story. That is = probably due to the fact that he has had 7 months to study the vortex = archives, including the post excerpts below (which is where he could be = getting more than a few of his better ideas for stories, not to mention = some of his disinformation).=20 It started with on Vo back on March 8: ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Jed Rothwell" > Oh come now. That's a huge stretch! There is no proof that you can = control minds with this method, and even if you could it might take = centuries to achieve such results. My response: Au contraire, not only good evidence, but "old" good evidence from = classified R&D which indicates that there is much more to the story than = what is available publicly. There is even a dedicated site for = monitoring this research: http://www.mindcontrolforums.com/ Forty years ago Yale professor Dr. Jose Delgado's secret work was funded = by the Office of Naval Intelligence (ONI). directed towards the creation = of a "psycho-civilized" society by use of a "stimoceiver." He later went = public with some of it and lost his contracts as a result. Delgado's work was seminal, and his experiments on humans and animals = demonstrated that electronic stimulation can excite extreme emotions = including rage, lust and fatigue. In his paper "Intra-cerebral Radio = Stimulation and recording in Completely Free Patients," Delgado observed = that: "Radio Stimulation on different points in the amygdala and = hippocampus in the four patients produced a variety of effects, = including pleasant sensations, elation, deep thoughtful concentration, = odd feelings, super relaxation (an essential precursor for deep = hypnosis), colored visions, and other responses." This was very crude work 40 years ago, I shudder to think how far it has = progressed in some government secret lab. But I bet that lab is in a = building with five sides. Speaking in 1966, Delgado asserted that his = research "supported the distasteful conclusion that motion, emotion and = behavior can be directed by electrical forces, and that humans can be = controlled like robots by push buttons." A few years later, before computers were even very powerful, Delgado = predicted the day would soon arrive when a computer would be able to = establish two-way radio communication with the brain - an event that = first occurred in 1974. Lawrence Pinneo, a neurophysiologist and = electronic engineer working for SRI - Stanford Research Institute and = then a leading military contractor, "developed a computer system capable = of reading a person's mind in a crude way. It correlated brain waves on = an electroencephalograph with specific commands, and could control some = activity based on that. It should be mentioned that in 10 years, a = supercomputer can probably be put into the brain itself and the whole = process localized. Delgado's "Physical Control of the Mind: Towards a Psychocivilised = Society", does not appear on the net now. It once was, but seems to have = been removed. Some excerpts are here, as well as other commentary: http://www.mindcontrolforums.com/delgado.htm A quick google search turns up other less authoritative stuff: http://www.rense.com/general17/imp.htm It would be interesting to know how far this work has progressed in = secret labs, or in corporate labs as well. In keeping with the "farming out" thread, it would not surprise me to = find out this kind of R&D is being handled in places like India, for = Western corporate interests, perhaps even using one of the lower castes = as test subjects. If you should hear of suicide bombers "returning the favor" to Hamas, in = places Damascus or Gaza, you will probably be justified in suspecting = that Israeli interests have been involved in mind control technology = also. ...and then on the subject of MKULTRA > Wow. I had no idea. That's amazing if true (if replicated). You wonder = how the brain would ever evolve a mechanism for this. - Jed My response: Given that the human brain uses analog electrical (EM) signals just like = radio, and given that the first radio was aimed at simulating those = mental signals for sound and music, it is likely that we are just = copying nature's way, but now have figured out how to bypass the sensory = input of the ear and gone for the most direct route. Also, I found this new item of interest: Its been nearly 2 1/2 years = since this court ruling, and nothing seems to have come of it. I wonder = if Herr Ashcroft stepped in afterwards. http://www.rcfp.org/news/2002/0819kellyv.html "CIA must disclose some operational files" A Washington, D.C., reporter may view operational files on mind control = experiments by the Central Intelligence Agency, a federal district court = ruled in early August. 2002 A federal district court in Washington, D.C. granted reporter John F. = Kelly limited but highly unusual access to some Central Intelligence = Agency operational files in his request for records concerning the = federal government's mind control experiments of the 1950s. Judge Thomas Hogan ruled that the CIA must search and review its = operational files for information concerning the MKULTRA project, and = make all releasable information from those files available to Kelly. Perhaps in view of the recent revelations of our Prez. George W. = Bush...err... that he got a "direct message from God" to invade Iraq, = perhaps the CIA does not want to divulge that they used the = "divinity-add-on" to MKULTRA recently... Hey, if a serial killer used = that excuse (as they occasionally do) - i.e. message from God - to = justify brutal acts, the killer might escape the death penalty and get = committed to the funny-farm instead.=20 But then again, there's not much difference these days in D.C. and the = authoritarian "Combine" run by Big Nurse Ratched, only now she could be = named "Conde" ... still wearing the Jack-boots most of the time. Jones ------=_NextPart_000_01AB_01C5CB59.EC3DD410 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Who said vortex isn't way ahead of = American=20 Science?

...or at least Scientific American. This month they are=20 featuring a story on "mind control," Delgado, MKULTRA etc. written by = (usually)=20 the most-misinformed science journalist of recent memory - at least the = most=20 misinformed one knocking down a big paycheck (eliminating me from = contention).=20 Only this time Horgan wrote a fairly decent story. That is probably due = to the=20 fact that he has had 7 months to study the vortex archives, including = the post=20 excerpts below (which is where he could be getting more than a few of = his better=20 ideas for stories, not to mention some of his disinformation). =

It=20 started with on Vo back on March 8:

----- Original Message -----=20
From: "Jed Rothwell"

> Oh come now. That's a huge stretch! = There=20 is no proof that you can control minds with this method, and even if you = could=20 it might take centuries to achieve such results.

My = response:
Au=20 contraire, not only good evidence, but "old" good evidence from = classified=20 R&D which indicates that there is much more to the story than what = is=20 available publicly. There is even a dedicated site for monitoring this=20 research:
http://www.mindcontrolforums.c= om/

Forty years ago Yale professor Dr. = Jose=20 Delgado's secret work was funded by the Office of Naval Intelligence = (ONI).=20 directed towards the creation of a "psycho-civilized" society by use of = a=20 "stimoceiver." He later went public with some of it and lost his = contracts as a=20 result.

Delgado's work was seminal, and his experiments on humans = and=20 animals demonstrated that electronic stimulation can excite extreme = emotions=20 including rage, lust and fatigue. In his paper "Intra-cerebral Radio = Stimulation=20 and recording in Completely Free Patients," Delgado observed that: = "Radio=20 Stimulation on different points in the amygdala and hippocampus in the = four=20 patients produced a variety of effects, including pleasant sensations, = elation,=20 deep thoughtful concentration, odd feelings, super relaxation (an = essential=20 precursor for deep hypnosis), colored visions, and other = responses."

This=20 was very crude work 40 years ago, I shudder to think how far it has = progressed=20 in some government secret lab. But I bet that lab is in a building with = five=20 sides. Speaking in 1966, Delgado asserted that his research "supported = the=20 distasteful conclusion that motion, emotion and behavior can be directed = by=20 electrical forces, and that humans can be controlled like robots by push = buttons."

A few years later, before computers were even very = powerful,=20 Delgado predicted the day would soon arrive when a computer would be = able to=20 establish two-way radio communication with the brain - an event that = first=20 occurred in 1974. Lawrence Pinneo, a neurophysiologist and electronic = engineer=20 working for SRI - Stanford Research Institute and then a leading = military=20 contractor, "developed a computer system capable of reading a person's = mind in a=20 crude way. It correlated brain waves on an electroencephalograph with = specific=20 commands, and could control some activity based on that. It should be = mentioned=20 that in 10 years, a supercomputer can probably be put into the brain = itself and=20 the whole process localized.

Delgado's "Physical Control of the = Mind:=20 Towards a Psychocivilised Society", does not appear on the net now. It = once was,=20 but seems to have been removed. Some excerpts are here, as well as other = commentary:
http://www.mindcont= rolforums.com/delgado.htm

A quick google search turns up = other less=20 authoritative stuff:
http://www.rense.com/gene= ral17/imp.htm

It would be interesting to know how far this work has = progressed in=20 secret labs, or in corporate labs as well.

In keeping with the = "farming=20 out" thread, it would not surprise me to find out this kind of R&D = is being=20 handled in places like India, for Western corporate interests, perhaps = even=20 using one of the lower castes as test subjects.

If you should = hear of=20 suicide bombers "returning the favor" to Hamas, in places Damascus or = Gaza, you=20 will probably be justified in suspecting that Israeli interests have = been=20 involved in mind control technology also.

...and then on the = subject of=20 MKULTRA

> Wow. I had no idea. That's amazing if true (if = replicated).=20 You wonder how the brain would ever evolve a mechanism for this. - = Jed

My=20 response:
Given that the human brain uses analog electrical (EM) signals just = like=20 radio, and given that the first radio was aimed at simulating those = mental=20 signals for sound and music, it is likely that we are just copying = nature's way,=20 but now have figured out how to bypass the sensory input of the ear and = gone for=20 the most direct route.

Also, I found this new item of interest: = Its been=20 nearly 2 1/2 years since this court ruling, and nothing seems to have = come of=20 it. I wonder if Herr Ashcroft stepped in afterwards.
http://www.rcfp.or= g/news/2002/0819kellyv.html

"CIA must disclose some operational files"

A Washington, = D.C.,=20 reporter may view operational files on mind control experiments by the = Central=20 Intelligence Agency, a federal district court ruled in early August.=20 2002

A federal district court in Washington, D.C. granted = reporter John=20 F. Kelly limited but highly unusual access to some Central Intelligence = Agency=20 operational files in his request for records concerning the federal = government's=20 mind control experiments of the 1950s.

Judge Thomas Hogan ruled = that the=20 CIA must search and review its operational files for information = concerning the=20 MKULTRA project, and make all releasable information from those files = available=20 to Kelly.
 
Perhaps in view of the recent revelations of our Prez. George W.=20 Bush...err... that he got a "direct message from God" to invade Iraq, = perhaps=20 the CIA does not want to divulge that they used the "divinity-add-on" to = MKULTRA=20 recently... Hey, if a serial killer used that excuse (as they=20 occasionally do) - i.e. message from God - to justify brutal = acts, the=20 killer might escape the death penalty and get committed to the = funny-farm=20 instead.
 
But then again, there's not much difference these days in D.C. = and the authoritarian "Combine" run = by Big=20 Nurse Ratched, only now she could be named "Conde" ... = still=20 wearing the Jack-boots most of the=20 time.

Jones
------=_NextPart_000_01AB_01C5CB59.EC3DD410-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 7 17:36:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j980aKEQ008059; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 17:36:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j980aIUi008036; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 17:36:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 17:36:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=ix.netcom.com; b=gesCPC3EJEBN1ZByh6Dyw2B+SG2on2Zbz2k7Xv8wxz2B2c1cNtEzHueNpMdEtaCh; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220051068037950 ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.1.47.0 (Windows) From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: "vortex-l" Subject: FW: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday October 7, 2005 Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 17:37:09 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d83fafa9fc0f0e817d3108338ac6e934ec2601a10902912494350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 216.175.93.117 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63670 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > [Original Message] > From: What's New To: Date: 10/7/2005 11:30:06 AM Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday October 7, 2005 WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 7 Oct 05 Washington, DC 1. NOBEL PRIZE IN PHYSICS: THEORY OF QUANTUM OPTICS RECOGNIZED. Half of the Prize went to Roy Glauber, 80, a Harvard theorist who continues to teach freshman physics. The other half was divided between John Hall, 71, and Theodor Haensch, 63. Hall is a Senior Scientist at NIST and a Fellow at the University of Colorado's JILA. Haensch directs the Max-Planck-Institute for Quantum Optics in Munich, Germany. Optics was regarded as a mature area of physics before the invention of the laser in 1960, which made all sorts of new experiments possible. At Harvard, Roy Glauber, then 35, began recasting optics in terms of quantum theory. His work provided the mathematical basis for Hall and Haensch to develop techniques to measure frequencies with the accuracy needed for atomic clocks and global positioning systems. 2. NOBEL PEACE PRIZE: EFFORT TO HALT PROLIFERATION RECOGNIZED. Today it was announced that Mohammed ElBaradei, director general of the International Atomic Energy Agency, was the co-winner of the 2005 Peace Prize, along with the agency he heads. It was a stunning vindication of ElBaradei, who was reelected to a third term as IAEA director in June only after the U.S. grudgingly withdrew its opposition. Before the U.S. invasion, ElBaradei and the IAEA repeatedly insisted, over American objections, that Iraq had no weapons of mass destruction. None have ever been found. 3. HOLY WAR: PRESIDENT DELIVERS A "MAJOR SPEECH" ON TERRORISM. Timing is everything. Yesterday, before the Peace Prize was announced, President Bush delivered what the White House said would be a major speech about progress in the War on Terrorism. To a predictably friendly audience at the National Endowment for Democracy, the President declared that 10 terrorist plots around the world have been thwarted since 9-11. After the speech, the White House began making a list. This is like a boy making a list of the naughty things he hasn't done in hopes of a reward. We can only admire the President's restraint in stopping at ten. 4. JOUR 101: BE CAREFUL WHICH RAFT YOU TAKE DOWN THE CANYON. Balance is a good thing for tour boats, but it makes no sense at all applied to religious explanations of the geology of the Grand Canyon. A story in yesterday's NY Times by Jodi Wilgoren followed two expeditions down the canyon, one led by a Christian fundamentalist minister, the other by Dr. Eugenie Scott, a geologist and the director of the National Center for Science Education. The story could have been educational. It wasn't. All a non-scientist could take from the story is that there are two ways to interpret what you see in the canyon. 5. JOUR 102: HOW WILL AN ANNULAR ECLIPSE AFFECT YOUR HOROSCOPE? On Monday, a relatively rare annular eclipse was seen across Spain and Portugal, which happens if the moon is at its apogee and doesn't quite cover the Sun's disk. "It's quite spectacular," an Associated Press account in the NY Times quoted Dr. Stephen Maran of the American Astrological Society. Yes, it was. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.bobpark.org What's New is moving to a different listserver and our subscription process has changed. To change your subscription status please visit this link: http://listserv.umd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=bobparks-whatsnew&A=1 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 7 19:01:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9821G3C010649; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 19:01:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9821EIp010620; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 19:01:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 19:01:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Control of the Scientific Mind Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 22:03:02 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <01ae01c5cb94$99412970$6401a8c0 NuDell> In-Reply-To: <01ae01c5cb94$99412970$6401a8c0 NuDell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200510072203.02553.rockcast earthlink.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63671 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Friday 07 October 2005 19:12, Jones Beene wrote: > > But then again, there's not much difference these days in D.C. and the > authoritarian "Combine" run by Big Nurse Ratched, only now she could be > named "Conde" ... still wearing the Jack-boots most of the time. > > Jones You gotta admit, ole 'dubya's' not so secret girl friend is both a hell of a lot smarter than his wife and a lot better lookin as well.....and one other comment. The biggest oxymoron in scientific commentary is not your guy, but an occasional guest 'commentator' of negatism named Bell sometimes found on Spacedaily dot com. This 'recovering space cadet' would have us close out all our space programs as 'too risky', leaving the field open to others like the Chinese. Methinks he is a Chinese plant or a 'useful fool' like the late J. Edgar Hoover wrote about in 'Masters of Deceit' From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 7 19:03:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9822Wcn011585; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 19:02:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9822Vj1011561; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 19:02:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 19:02:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000c01c5cbac$470858f0$ac027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Control of the Scientific Mind Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 21:02:02 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C5CB82.5DAA3530" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.5 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,HTML_50_60,HTML_MESSAGE,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63672 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C5CB82.5DAA3530 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0009_01C5CB82.5DABBBD0" ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C5CB82.5DABBBD0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankJones wrote.. >Given that the human brain uses analog electrical (EM) signals just = like radio, and given that the first radio was aimed at >simulating = those mental signals for sound and music, it is likely that we are just = copying nature's way, but now have figured out >how to bypass the = sensory input of the ear and gone for the most direct route. One needs only to listen to Fox TV news at 6 PM evenings to fathom the = depth application of mind control studies have reached. Each TV ad is = superimposed over sound. This sound is NOT music but has an inference to = music. The insidious nature of the sound is that it attempts to compel = one to try to search out a musical cadence. The disturbing reaction one = gets from the sound allows the message of the ad to reach a subliminal = resonance with the brain. What is uncertain is the actual message being introduced, it may NOT be = for advertizing purposes. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C5CB82.5DABBBD0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Jones wrote..
>Given that the human brain uses analog electrical (EM) signals = just=20 like radio, and given that the first radio was aimed at >simulating = those=20 mental signals for sound and music, it is likely that we are just = copying=20 nature's way, but now have figured out >how to bypass the sensory = input of=20 the ear and gone for the most direct route.
 
 
One needs only to listen to Fox TV news at 6 PM evenings to fathom = the=20 depth  application of mind control studies have reached. Each = TV ad is=20 superimposed over sound. This sound is NOT music but has an inference to = music.=20 The insidious nature of the sound is that it attempts to compel one to = try to=20 search out a musical cadence. The disturbing reaction one gets from the = sound=20 allows the message of the ad to reach a subliminal resonance with the=20 brain.
 
What is uncertain is the actual message being introduced, it may = NOT be for=20 advertizing purposes.
 
Richard

------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C5CB82.5DABBBD0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C5CB82.5DAA3530 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000701c5cbac$4670faf0$ac027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C5CB82.5DAA3530-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 7 20:17:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j983GsTB009346; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 20:17:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j983Gq0N009302; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 20:16:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 20:16:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Message-ID: <43473A0D.5030801 iinet.net.au> Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2005 13:16:29 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: space elevators & untra ultralight materials References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051005122723.040fdc80 pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20051005122723.040fdc80 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63673 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A key to space elevators, solar chimney technologies and big flying jet stream windmills is *zero weight building materials*. I have a design for such a material; an expanded foam filled with hydrogen and helium. Its meant to be Buoyant up to 5 km and ultralight but stiff above that hight. Think what it would do for rocketry. I'm trying to find the right reinforcing materials and chemistry. As I said before; will someone give me a LAB! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 7 21:06:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9845XdJ031443; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 21:05:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9845Vfb031419; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 21:05:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 21:05:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: space elevator testing Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2005 14:05:07 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <73hek1l0dsaif2r0cbm1ra2jplfj006bbu 4ax.com> References: <8s39k11tn9phq2hs6asl1fs173lj8l7s1r@4ax.com> <200510071107.07329.rockcast@earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <200510071107.07329.rockcast earthlink.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta01ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.77.227] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Sat, 8 Oct 2005 04:05:06 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j9845EGX031311 Resent-Message-ID: <70QvFD.A.0qH.LW0RDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63674 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Standing Bear's message of Fri, 7 Oct 2005 11:07:07 -0400: Hi, [snip] >and to paraphrase. The folks at liftport.com and other companies working >on this, and scientists with vision like Dr. Bradley Edwards know the >potential of these buckminsterfullerenes and have tested them and found >the strength there. It yet remains to manufacture that same strength into >a continuous ribbon. Six months ago there was no ability to even make the >ribbon. Now there is. We are a forum of the scientifically curious, or at >least ideally so. I believe that the spirit of Gene Mallove is still here >among us. I have faith that a way will be found to strengthen the SWCNT >ribbon sufficiently. It may not be the theoretical ideal, as that I feel is [snip] I have placed some calculations on my web page at http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/Space_Elevator.html Regards, Robin van Spaandonk In a town full of candlestick makers, everyone lives in the light, In a town full of thieves, there is only one candle, and everyone lives in the night. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 7 21:20:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j984Jf4w003992; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 21:19:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j984JeiP003983; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 21:19:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 21:19:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: space elevators & untra ultralight materials Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2005 14:19:16 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051005122723.040fdc80 pop.mindspring.com> <43473A0D.5030801@iinet.net.au> In-Reply-To: <43473A0D.5030801 iinet.net.au> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.77.227] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Sat, 8 Oct 2005 04:19:15 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j984JMYB003903 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63675 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Wesley Bruce's message of Sat, 08 Oct 2005 13:16:29 +1000: Hi, [snip] > >A key to space elevators, solar chimney technologies and big flying jet >stream windmills is *zero weight building materials*. I have a design >for such a material; an expanded foam filled with hydrogen and helium. >Its meant to be Buoyant up to 5 km and ultralight but stiff above that >hight. IOW it would be buoyant for the first 0.01% of the distance. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk In a town full of candlestick makers, everyone lives in the light, In a town full of thieves, there is only one candle, and everyone lives in the night. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 7 21:41:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j984emcv011007; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 21:41:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j984elox010979; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 21:40:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 21:40:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: space elevator testing Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2005 14:40:24 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta03ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.77.227] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Sat, 8 Oct 2005 04:40:24 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j984eTET010889 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63676 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: BTW another reason we should not construct a space elevator using an electrical conductor is because it would short out the electrosphere. This would destroy the elevator during construction. If we managed to get it built anyway, it would provide a permanent short, with potentially drastic consequences for the World's weather. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk In a town full of candlestick makers, everyone lives in the light, In a town full of thieves, there is only one candle, and everyone lives in the night. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 7 22:20:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j985K8TE025289; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 22:20:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j985K6AO025274; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 22:20:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 22:20:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Message-ID: <434756ED.6030501 iinet.net.au> Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2005 15:19:41 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: space elevators & untra ultralight materials References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051005122723.040fdc80 pop.mindspring.com> <43473A0D.5030801@iinet.net.au> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63677 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >In reply to Wesley Bruce's message of Sat, 08 Oct 2005 13:16:29 >+1000: >Hi, >[snip] > > >>A key to space elevators, solar chimney technologies and big flying jet >>stream windmills is *zero weight building materials*. I have a design >>for such a material; an expanded foam filled with hydrogen and helium. >>Its meant to be Buoyant up to 5 km and ultralight but stiff above that >>hight. >> >> > >IOW it would be buoyant for the first 0.01% of the distance. > > > Your probably correct. I'll settle for a thousand meters. >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk > >In a town full of candlestick makers, >everyone lives in the light, >In a town full of thieves, >there is only one candle, >and everyone lives in the night. > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 7 22:58:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j985wHKj006377; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 22:58:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j985wGmM006357; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 22:58:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 22:58:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: space elevators & untra ultralight materials Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2005 15:57:53 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051005122723.040fdc80 pop.mindspring.com> <43473A0D.5030801@iinet.net.au> <434756ED.6030501@iinet.net.au> In-Reply-To: <434756ED.6030501 iinet.net.au> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta01sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.77.227] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Sat, 8 Oct 2005 05:57:52 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j985vw4e006209 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63678 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Wesley Bruce's message of Sat, 08 Oct 2005 15:19:41 +1000: Hi, [snip] >>>A key to space elevators, solar chimney technologies and big flying jet >>>stream windmills is *zero weight building materials*. I have a design >>>for such a material; an expanded foam filled with hydrogen and helium. >>>Its meant to be Buoyant up to 5 km and ultralight but stiff above that >>>hight. >>> >>> >> >>IOW it would be buoyant for the first 0.01% of the distance. >> >> >> >Your probably correct. I'll settle for a thousand meters. That would make it 0.002 %. In short, this measure is useless. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk In a town full of candlestick makers, everyone lives in the light, In a town full of thieves, there is only one candle, and everyone lives in the night. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 8 03:19:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j98AIfui004453; Sat, 8 Oct 2005 03:18:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j98AIcc0004430; Sat, 8 Oct 2005 03:18:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 03:18:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20051008101808423.6747F1C00088 mwinf3009.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20051008101809.00963338 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2005 11:18:09 +0100 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: "Clap" and the Beta-atmosphere Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j98AIFxo004253 Resent-Message-ID: <5byF3B.A.HFB.9z5RDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63679 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The following article has a bearing on the action of the Beta-atmosphere ========================================================== Oct 6th 2005 From The Economist print edition A dose of Clap Putting dust in your engine sounds crazy. But it might not be. ALTHOUGH they need to fire their brand consultants, the inventors of Clap — an additive intended to improve the fuel-efficiency of car engines—seem to be on to something. By pulverising a mineral called serpentine into particles a millionth of a millimetre in diameter, they have come up with an additive which, they claim, can improve the fuel consumption of old car engines by as much as 10%. And, a millionth of a metre being a nanometre (sic), they are also claiming that their product is an example of that much talked of, but little-seen field known as nanotechnology. The Clap project began in 1979 at the presciently named Institute of Nanotechnology in Moscow. The idea was to produce not a fuel additive, but a lubricant additive. The institute's engineers, led by Fiodor Wischnjewsky, thought that adding a suitably fine powder to an old engine's oil would effect continuous running repairs by filling in tiny cracks and abrasions in the cylinders and pistons. These irregularities make combustion inefficient, which increases both fuel consumption and pollution. This being first the Soviet Union and then Russia, nothing much happened until 2002 when Francesco Meneguzzo, an engineer at the Biometeorology Laboratory in Florence, got wind of the project. Then things started moving. The Italians ditched the Russians' efforts to design copper, zinc, aluminium and silver nanopowders. These rendered the oil too fluid. Instead, they concentrated on serpentine, a substance rich in magnesium silicate which was found to cling efficiently to the internal surfaces of all common petrol and diesel engines. The problem was how to crush this mineral into small enough particles on an industrial scale. Industrial grinding mills made of hardened steel cannot be used since they release heavy metals into the milled rock, replicating the problems of metallic nanopowders. To overcome this, the engineers came up with a two-stage process, the first stage of which goes back to the origins of grinding mills by employing actual millstones made of granite. The second stage is ultramodern, though. The particles of mineral-flour made by the millstones are blown into nanosmithereens by tiny electrical charges. The result, which requires a half-gram dose to be squirted into a car's oil every 40,000km, will go on sale in December. Old cars may soon, therefore, be clapped out in more senses than one ========================================================== When I was researching the strength of clays and stabilized soils, preparation of the material entailed mixing in a sun and planet mixer of the type used in the food industry. Depending on the moisture content the material reached an equilibrium at a particular grading of lump sizes. As any gardener would expect, the average lump size decreased as the moisture content decreased. At the equilibrium grading point there are two processes taking place. The larger lumps are being broken up into smaller lumps and the smaller lumps are coalescing into larger lumps. Individual mineral grains therefor are travelling up and down the lump size in a similar manner to, say, the way that individual water or air molecules travel up and down the vortex spectrum. To my surprise a literature search showed that in any mixing grinding process a similar equilibrium grading is formed. For instance if you grind up marble eventually you reach as stage where the particles of marble are "cold welding" themselves together as fast as they are being broken up. I believe that in grinding up the serpentine mineral as described above the manufacturers must have reached such an equilibrium boundary at well above the nano-scale size and that is why they had to find some other method to take them on down to the nano-scale. Now we have met the action of sparks before and suggested that they generate Beta-atmosphere vacua in the form of Beta-atmosphere vortices. I believe that is how the serpentine minerals are being broken up into nano-sized particles. In effect the serpentine is falling apart because it is no longer being held together by ambient external Beta-atmosphere pressure. Assuming the above view is correct, I doubt if serpentine is essential to process. I would imagine that many other minerals would be as good or better. Cheers, Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 8 05:40:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j98CdgS2029955; Sat, 8 Oct 2005 05:39:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j98CdeWg029940; Sat, 8 Oct 2005 05:39:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 05:39:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=o03LKnja1L87rOuGTRy+4t/8NW8hk5MhS1iEfG8bUzEDvJb0qbQLnBYTEJ7K6Thz; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22005106811388790 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Sealed Beam Tungsten-Halogen Headlamp OU Solar Collectors Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 06:38:08 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9403fa656306ba55c656485611d7f0636e1350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.158 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63680 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Things going on inside PAR & Automotive Tungsten-Halogen Lamps. Properties of Tungsten at 500 & 2,000 K : Radiated power density, 97.1 & 240,000 watts/m^2 Resistivity, 1.056e-7 ohm-meters & 5.667e-7 ohm-meters Electron emission, nil & 10.0 amperes/meter^2 Electron Affinity of Neutral Bromine & Iodine Molecules and Atoms Br2, 2.55 eV Br, 3.36 eV I2, 2.55 eV I 3.06 eV Bond Energies: Br - Br 2.00 eV Br - W 3.42 eV I - I 1.53 eV I - W ~ 2.30 eV Br - Al 4.6 eV I - Al 3.8 eV ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Things going on inside PAR & Automotive Tungsten-Halogen Lamps.
 
Properties of Tungsten at 500 & 2,000 K :
 
Radiated power density,  97.1  &  240,000 watts/m^2
Resistivity, 1.056e-7 ohm-meters  &   5.667e-7 ohm-meters
Electron emission, nil  &  10.0 amperes/meter^2  
 
Electron Affinity of Neutral Bromine & Iodine Molecules and  Atoms
 
Br2,   2.55 eV   
Br,   3.36 eV 
I2,  2.55 eV           
I   3.06 eV
 
 
Bond Energies:
 
Br - Br   2.00 eV    
Br - W   3.42 eV   
I - I    1.53 eV 
I - W    ~ 2.30 eV
 
Br - Al  4.6 eV
I - Al  3.8 eV
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 8 06:55:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j98Dsx7k007459; Sat, 8 Oct 2005 06:55:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j98DsvG5007435; Sat, 8 Oct 2005 06:54:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 06:54:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=Ot6R8QsiBHUMFznCG6jNy6SBETwUkr5NM7+D60PUGnQy3CT4WqiqyxY+tZtR28l7; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220051068125341960 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Tungsten-Halogen Lamps & Solar Insolation Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 07:53:41 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940158b99406c91f001103d0f5e6cf74ea7350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.120.56 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63681 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII How much can be converted at 1.0 KW/Meter^2 Solar Insolation? 1.0 nm Photon Wavelength = 1241.5 eV 1,0 Microns Photon Wavelength = 1.2415 eV http://rredc.nrel.gov/solar/spectra/am1.5/ "To convert nanometers to µm, divide by 1000. To convert W/sm/nm to W/sm/µm, multiply by 1000." .................................................................................................................................... Things going on inside PAR & Automotive Tungsten-Halogen Lamps. Properties of Tungsten at 500 & 2,000 K : Radiated power density, 97.1 & 240,000 watts/m^2 Resistivity, 1.056e-7 ohm-meters & 5.667e-7 ohm-meters Electron emission, nil & 10.0 amperes/meter^2 Electron Affinity of Neutral Bromine & Iodine Molecules and Atoms Br2, 2.55 eV Br, 3.36 eV I2, 2.55 eV I 3.06 eV Bond Energies: Br - Br 2.00 eV Br - W 3.42 eV I - I 1.53 eV I - W ~ 2.30 eV Br - Al 4.6 eV I - Al 3.8 eV ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

How much can be converted at 1.0 KW/Meter^2 Solar Insolation?
 
1.0 nm  Photon Wavelength = 1241.5 eV
1,0 Microns Photon Wavelength = 1.2415 eV
 
 
 
"To convert nanometers to µm, divide by 1000. To convert W/sm/nm to W/sm/µm, multiply by 1000."
 
....................................................................................................................................
 
Things going on inside PAR & Automotive Tungsten-Halogen Lamps.
 
Properties of Tungsten at 500 & 2,000 K :
 
Radiated power density,  97.1  &  240,000 watts/m^2
Resistivity, 1.056e-7 ohm-meters  &   5.667e-7 ohm-meters
Electron emission, nil  &  10.0 amperes/meter^2  
 
Electron Affinity of Neutral Bromine & Iodine Molecules and  Atoms
 
Br2,   2.55 eV   
Br,   3.36 eV 
I2,  2.55 eV           
I   3.06 eV
 
 
Bond Energies:
 
Br - Br   2.00 eV    
Br - W   3.42 eV   
I - I    1.53 eV 
I - W    ~ 2.30 eV
 
Br - Al  4.6 eV
I - Al  3.8 eV
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 8 07:32:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j98EVd47027042; Sat, 8 Oct 2005 07:31:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j98EVJk1026777; Sat, 8 Oct 2005 07:31:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 07:31:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=s4w20GuzlVTpSfg4xBMOJ9K4Ni1+GN35Ryg81rDdWQncPUUWVUrJWwUIVMsWC1TP2MjFwJ2f7api5SFJDXWkOXwxHyD9uSyEwF/qIl37RwHseCM6+9aWZ5vyMB3xOrFJHbb/94VSx7Bvubx3gz/VdRniNAiCoRA6fWX7aSoG9OM= ; Message-ID: <20051008124208.26013.qmail web35010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 05:42:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Rhong Dhong Subject: Re: Control of the Scientific Mind To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <200510072203.02553.rockcast earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <1Wv6DC.A.KiG.sg9RDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63683 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Standing Bear wrote: > On Friday 07 October 2005 19:12, Jones Beene wrote: > > > > > But then again, there's not much difference these > days in D.C. and the > > authoritarian "Combine" run by Big Nurse Ratched, > only now she could be > > named "Conde" ... still wearing the Jack-boots > most of the time. > > > > Jones > > You gotta admit, ole 'dubya's' not so secret girl > friend is both a hell of a > lot smarter than his wife and a lot better lookin as > well Man, you need glasses! >.....and one other > comment. > The biggest oxymoron in scientific commentary is > not your guy, but an > occasional guest 'commentator' of negatism named > Bell sometimes found > on Spacedaily dot com. This 'recovering space > cadet' would have us > close out all our space programs as 'too risky', > leaving the field open > to others like the Chinese. Methinks he is a Chinese > plant or a 'useful > fool' like the late J. Edgar Hoover wrote about in > 'Masters of Deceit' > > __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 8 07:33:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j98EWSWo027729; Sat, 8 Oct 2005 07:32:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j98EVFPj026705; Sat, 8 Oct 2005 07:31:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 07:31:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=XPaTf8GZ+fvfLYhkHXU/YW3bEhILG1NFFLotXRfX76KD34WyIqzJ+B4/JxJTTWxHBiIjJG3Oro3soQNxSKjBA1iXV32CkGz8YKRgZtbSj27vrBWIh26MehhDNcvK9vyysUatcdeRFIPlQXIn0bEd1Iz3uFddeEgvZRdl7qRLkpY= ; Message-ID: <20051008143012.51715.qmail web81102.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 07:30:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: "Clap" and the Beta-atmosphere To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20051008101809.00963338 pop.freeserve.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <4X94ND.A.IhG.ng9RDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63682 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Very interesting Frank, As I was reading this, I was expecting to see sonochemistry mentioned - and am somewhat surprised that it is not an alternative way to get nano-particles of (whatever) into the oil. Of even greater interest would be the nano-chemistry of carbon in good old H2O ... to be used as a "fuel" of course. Wouldn't you love to know what the minimum level of nano-particulated coal which could be ignited in an ICE - it could result in something like carbon reforming in-situ and might very possibly power the vehicle with less overall CO2 than than petrol - but that is pure speculation based on the superior properties of steam over CO2 for translating heat to work . BTW a friend of mine collects old glass bottles once used in so-called "patent medicines" in the 1800s in the USA. One of funniest was kind of like mugwump http://www.answers.com/topic/mugwump-png but aimed at recently freed slaves, and may have been the genesis of the vulgar meaning of 'clap'... anyway, I doubt if it invovled either sonchemistry or a real cure, and in 100 years some teenage geeks will be looking back at these old messages from 2005 and get a similar laugh at our level of ignorance. That is progress... Jones ========================================================== > Oct 6th 2005 > From The Economist print edition > > A dose of Clap > > Putting dust in your engine sounds crazy. But it > might > not be. > > ALTHOUGH they need to fire their brand > consultants, the > inventors of Clap — an additive intended to > improve the > fuelefficiency of car engines—seem to be on to > something. > By pulverising a mineral called serpentine into > particles > a millionth of a millimetre in diameter, they have > come > up with an additive which, they claim, can improve > the > fuel consumption of old car engines by as much as > 10%. > And, a millionth of a metre being a nanometre > (sic), > they are also claiming that their product is an > example > of that much talked of, but little-seen field > known as > nanotechnology. > > The Clap project began in 1979 at the presciently > named > Institute of Nanotechnology in Moscow. The idea > was to > produce not a fuel additive, but a lubricant > additive. > The institute's engineers, led by Fiodor > Wischnjewsky, > thought that adding a suitably fine powder to an > old > engine's oil would effect continuous running > repairs by > filling in tiny cracks and abrasions in the > cylinders > and pistons. These irregularities make combustion > inefficient, which increases both fuel consumption > and > pollution. > > This being first the Soviet Union and then Russia, > > nothing much happened until 2002 when Francesco > Meneguzzo, an engineer at the Biometeorology > Laboratory > in Florence, got wind of the project. Then things > started > moving. > > The Italians ditched the Russians' efforts to > design > copper, zinc, aluminium and silver nanopowders. > These > rendered the oil too fluid. Instead, they > concentrated > on serpentine, a substance rich in magnesium > silicate > which was found to cling efficiently to the > internal > surfaces of all common petrol and diesel engines. > > The problem was how to crush this mineral into > small > enough particles on an industrial scale. > Industrial > grinding mills made of hardened steel cannot be > used > since they release heavy metals into the milled > rock, > replicating the problems of metallic nanopowders. > To > overcome this, the engineers came up with a > two-stage > process, the first stage of which goes back to the > > origins of grinding mills by employing actual > millstones > made of granite. The second stage is ultramodern, > though. > The particles of mineral-flour made by the > millstones are > blown into nanosmithereens by tiny electrical > charges. > > The result, which requires a half-gram dose to be > squirted into a car's oil every 40,000km, will go > on > sale in December. Old cars may soon, therefore, be > > clapped out in more senses than one > > > ========================================================== > > > When I was researching the strength of clays and > stabilized > soils, preparation of the material entailed mixing > in a sun > and planet mixer of the type used in the food > industry. > Depending on the moisture content the material > reached an > equilibrium at a particular grading of lump sizes. > As any > gardener would expect, the average lump size > decreased as > the moisture content decreased. > > At the equilibrium grading point there are two > processes > taking place. The larger lumps are being broken up > into > smaller lumps and the smaller lumps are coalescing > into > larger lumps. Individual mineral grains therefor are > > travelling up and down the lump size in a similar > manner > to, say, the way that individual water or air > molecules > travel up and down the vortex spectrum. > > To my surprise a literature search showed that in > any > mixing grinding process a similar equilibrium > grading > is formed. For instance if you grind up marble > eventually > you reach as stage where the particles of marble are > > "cold welding" themselves together as fast as they > are > being broken up. > > I believe that in grinding up the serpentine mineral > as > described above the manufacturers must have reached > such > an equilibrium boundary at well above the nano-scale > > size and that is why they had to find some other > method > to take them on down to the nano-scale. > > Now we have met the action of sparks before and > suggested > that they generate Beta-atmosphere vacua in the form > of > Beta-atmosphere vortices. I believe that is how the > serpentine minerals are being broken up into > nano-sized > particles. In effect the serpentine is falling apart > > because it is no longer being held together by > ambient > external Beta-atmosphere pressure. > > Assuming the above view is correct, I doubt if > serpentine > is essential to process. I would imagine that many > other > minerals would be as good or better. > > Cheers, > > Frank Grimer > > > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 8 08:01:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j98F10u0016006; Sat, 8 Oct 2005 08:01:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j98F0xfJ015990; Sat, 8 Oct 2005 08:00:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 08:00:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAA+k= Message-ID: <4347DF12.1000701 iinet.net.au> Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 01:00:34 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: space elevators & untra ultralight materials References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051005122723.040fdc80 pop.mindspring.com> <43473A0D.5030801@iinet.net.au> <434756ED.6030501@iinet.net.au> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63684 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >In reply to Wesley Bruce's message of Sat, 08 Oct 2005 15:19:41 >+1000: >Hi, >[snip] > > >>>>A key to space elevators, solar chimney technologies and big flying jet >>>>stream windmills is *zero weight building materials*. I have a design >>>>for such a material; an expanded foam filled with hydrogen and helium. >>>>Its meant to be Buoyant up to 5 km and ultralight but stiff above that >>>>hight. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>IOW it would be buoyant for the first 0.01% of the distance. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>Your probably correct. I'll settle for a thousand meters. >> >> > >That would make it 0.002 %. In short, this measure is useless. > > Not quite the bottom few kilometers would need to be alittle stifer than the rest of the cable. Winds at higher altitudes are not a problem on the equater but at ground level a few precautions are advisable. For the other application, solar chimneys 1000 meters will do fine. For aerospace taking any weight off helps heaps. >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk > >In a town full of candlestick makers, >everyone lives in the light, >In a town full of thieves, >there is only one candle, >and everyone lives in the night. > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 8 09:57:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j98GvUfc008842; Sat, 8 Oct 2005 09:57:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j98GvS9O008817; Sat, 8 Oct 2005 09:57:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 09:57:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002601c5cc29$4d989d60$1714fea9 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: More PolySci less SciPolitics Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 09:57:00 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0023_01C5CBEE.A09EBDE0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63685 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01C5CBEE.A09EBDE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Science should be about the search for truth. This is even more = genuinely necessary for "fringe science" - the practitioners of which = have enough inherent problems with the mainstream, without adding = unnecessary and silly 'political' baggage and vanity agendas.... Unfortunately the socio-politics which are ingrained in the human = psyche, basically - vanity+envy, these emotions hinder that situation = (truth-searching) immeasurably, and on every level but especially on the = "fringe"... where the outlaws of mainstream science would rather quibble = than cooperate, it seems. In common parlance, we recognize that "doodoo = (the least vulgar word I could come up with) flows downhill" and = obviously nobody wants to be group on the bottom of that odoriferous = cascade. Case in point: LERN and the Mills' hydrino. A visitor from another = planet, realizing how they themselves had solved the riddle of LENR long = ago, might think that earthly scientists must have blinders on - not to = see the obvious and immediate cross-connection between the two = subfields. Yet the reality of the situation is that there are two = polarized, often mutually jealous camps here - of unyielding advocates = with separate political agendas, and neither seem willing to concede the = obvious - that the two formative-fields are absolutely inseparable and = joined-at-the-hip.=20 Moreover, by using the best of both worlds, it might be easily possible = to solve the riddle of free-energy now ... but... nada... mas caca... = and neither camp wants to end up being bottom feeder. Moreover, within each camp there are now semi-official efforts underway = to quiet dissention within the ranks - this being more true of the = hydrino side, where the list owner seems to have lost interest in the = search for truth - but hey - it is his list, and I am soon gone from = there as well. Fortunately, Bill B. is a bit more mellow and open-minded = on the politics of alternative energy. Another case in point. Even here, a very important paper by Mizuno seems = to have escaped comment, perhaps because of politics: www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MizunoTneutronemi.pdf =20 There are the troubling implications in the Mizuno paper - and several = of his other papers point more to hydrino explanations than to anything = else (despite the fact that Jed say he has likely never heard of the = hydrino) - no problemo - he is a truth-seeker and that ignorance is = immaterial to what others do with his work in a broader context. These = particular implications are troubling to both the hydrino camp and to = the CF camp, however, and are based on two very "telling" findings in = this paper.=20 Lets emphasize that IF... this experiment was not claimed by a very = competent experimenter - to be *very high* in repeatability, perhaps = these issues mentioned below could be ignored. But ten-out-of-ten is = very convincing to any truth-seeker especially coming from a = practitioner of LENR who admits up-front - the low-repeatability of CF = inherent in normal experiments. Here is the abstract: Abstract "We observed neutron emissions from pure deuterium gas after it cooled = in the liquid nitrogen followed by compressed under a magnetic field. The neutron = count, and duration of the release, and the time of the release after treatment was initiated all = fluctuated considerably. Neutron emissions were observed in ten test cases out of ten. Compared = to the experiments in which neutrons were observed with electrolysis in a heavy water = solution, repeatability was highly good and the neutron count was high." WOW ! First, consider that the experiment is *unpowered* gas phase of = deuterium - no loading - and that the surprisingly high neutron = emissions, seen early-on - are absolutely gone, more or less, after 4000 = seconds. Next let me re-emphasize *10-out-of-10* repeatability and "gone = after 4000" seconds. There is an obvious implication here that in any population of = deuterons, that there is a small percentage of atoms where the neutron = is more loosely-bound than in the bulk of the atoms, and once this low = population of "meta-stable" varieties are removed, then the anomaly = ceases. Second, there is significant but lesser neutron emission from hydrogen = alone! Assuming that this is not within the range of statistical error = (arguable), then we are left to ponder whether this neutron emission = could be the result of the "natural" level of deuterium, coming from = either the H2O or methane precursor - whichever is the source of the gas = which is used (unlikely); but even so, at a maximum of 300 ppm, this = increase of approximately 40% in neutrons over baseline is anomalous and = very interesting. Yet there is one good explanation for both of these = findings. The finding raises the likelihood of a metastable species- and you may = have already guessed where I am going with this, if you have followed = the hydrino forum, or Mills CQM. Needless to say, the theory and = experiments of R. Mills are as controversial as those of Mizuno, and a = small portion of the theory has recently been shown to be in = mathematical error (causing the hydrino list owner to ban the most = intelligent voice of dissent on that list, unfortunately a skeptic but a = brilliant mathematician - which Mills is not) ... but.... most of Mills = ideas are at least partially correct, if not equally brilliant in their = own right. Has no one heard of moderation these days!! And in fairness = to Nora, Mills is equally as egotistical and intransigent when proven = wrong. Has no one heard of reconciliation of ideas these days! ...or = seeking the truth and dumping the politics. On this list, so far at least, I am free to pick-and-choose among all = the conflicting arguably good ideas, and keep only the ones which are = useful to a more general approach to the broader field of LENR. This = would be impossible without knowing about CQM. But nowadays CQM itself = is an actual impediment to understanding the BIG PICTURE. And by big, I = mean: cosmological scale. If Mills does get the "big prize" it will be = (IMHO) for the cosmological implications of hydrinos - which answer so = very many things cosmologically, but which Mills himself has probably = gotten all wrong on the earthly end. Back to the very important Mizuno experiment. IF there is a natural = population of "redundant ground state" hydrogen (or deuterium) which is = forming continuously in the solar corona, as Mills suggests, and which = has been doing this for nearly 5 billion years, then some of it would = likely survive the transit to earth and over geologic time, there would = be a "natural" but low population of both hydrogen and deuterium (in = redundant ground states - ergo with far different properties), which = shows up first in the oceans and then later in hydrocarbons. This = population could easily have escaped detection, till now, as it is = identical in every respect except for atomic size and "near-field" = charge. It is in a redundant ground state - BUT the cause may well have = been an ENDOTHERMIC solar reaction, and any attempts to actually form = hydrinos (at least in the first two drops 1/2 and 1/3) will fail to = produce net energy as these may well be endothermic. This putative scenario - of a "natural" population of "redundant ground = state" hydrogen/ deuterium could explain this Mizuno experiment and much = more (much of LENR even, including the lack of reproducibility). I can = see no way around the fact that IF Mizuno's results are accurate, and = 10-out-of-10 is a pretty good batting average.... then there must be = only a limited amount of this "hyper-active"=20 or metastable deuterium in any starting population. By that, I mean a = small percentage of deuterium nuclei which are so loosely bound - = naturally - that almost any external constraint, such as alternating = magnetism, will "strip" the neutron. One of these metastable species = for every [?? huge range of 10^10 to 10^20] normal atoms would suffice = to explain this and probably many other phenomena in LENR such as = excess heat, electrode transmutation, helium (from alpha emission = following neutron absorption) "heat after death", and the lack of = reproducibility (depleted population of metastables)... the list goes on = and on. The fact that Mills' redundant ground state deuterium fits that = description is intriguing, as logically the much tighter electron = orbital would alter the coulomb balance (as felt by the proton) only and = especially when the proton is aligned in a strong magnetic field like = Mizunos. But even Mills' himself does not acknowledge that the results = he sees in his own experiments could be, in whole or in part, from = primordial solar-derived metastable hydrogen, and not from the activity = of the reaction-cell itself. The cell maybe net exothermic, due to solar = hydrinos, even if the 1/2 and 1/3 stages of hydrino formation are = endothermic. IOW Mills has described how the material could have been created in the = solar corona, but even he does not realize that all he has done in his = experimental work is discover different ways to convert this=20 natural metastable entity - which is, in effect, a strange kind of solar = energy. Factoid - Mills is only successful with a constant flow of = hydrogen - which is NOT reused. He has never demonstrated that once UV = light has been seen that the hydrogen can be reused. I say that there is = the possibility that Mills has at least part of the mechanism backwards: = to wit - if the starting gas has been totally depleted in "original" = hydrinos, and none were added to compensate, then that gas cannot be = reused. He has not shown otherwise. ... at least that is my current obsessive-scientific-fixation and = truth-search for this weekend, which will likely change the instant = someone is able to shoot it down with any kind of non-politicized logic. = Which will likely need to come from the "usual suspects" the several = observers who recognize the possibility of a cross-connection - an many = have their political agenda set to a default of no-hydrinos-in-LENR. = Personally, I am as certain of the cross-connection, as of the truth of = either. Coincidences this large do not happen in science. Jones ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01C5CBEE.A09EBDE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Science should be about the search for = truth. This=20 is even more genuinely necessary for "fringe science" - the = practitioners of=20 which have enough inherent problems with the mainstream, without adding=20 unnecessary and silly 'political' baggage and vanity=20 agendas....

Unfortunately the socio-politics which are = ingrained in=20 the human psyche, basically - vanity+envy, these emotions hinder that = situation=20 (truth-searching) immeasurably, and on every level but = especially on the=20 "fringe"... where the outlaws of mainstream science would rather quibble = than=20 cooperate, it seems. In common parlance, we recognize that "doodoo = (the=20 least vulgar word I could come up with) flows downhill" and obviously = nobody=20 wants to be group on the bottom of that odoriferous cascade.

Case = in=20 point: LERN and the Mills' hydrino. A visitor from another planet, = realizing how=20 they themselves had solved the riddle of LENR long ago, might think that = earthly=20 scientists must have blinders on - not to see the obvious and immediate=20 cross-connection between the two subfields. Yet the reality of the = situation is=20 that there are two polarized, often mutually jealous camps here - = of=20 unyielding advocates with separate political agendas, and neither seem = willing=20 to concede the obvious - that the two formative-fields are absolutely=20 inseparable and joined-at-the-hip.
 
Moreover, by using the best of both = worlds, it=20 might be easily possible to solve the riddle of free-energy now ... = but...=20 nada... mas caca... and neither camp wants to end up being bottom=20 feeder.

Moreover, within each camp there are now semi-official = efforts=20 underway to quiet dissention within the ranks  - this being more = true of=20 the hydrino side, where the list owner seems to have lost interest in = the search=20 for truth - but hey - it is his list, and I am soon gone from there as = well.=20 Fortunately, Bill B. is a bit more mellow and open-minded on the = politics of=20 alternative energy.

Another case in point. Even here, = a very=20 important paper by Mizuno seems to have escaped comment, perhaps because = of=20 politics:
www.lenr-= canr.org/acrobat/MizunoTneutronemi.pdf
 
There are the troubling = implications in=20 the Mizuno paper - and several of his other papers point more to hydrino = explanations than to anything else (despite the fact that Jed say = he has=20 likely never heard of the hydrino) - no problemo - he is a truth-seeker = and that=20 ignorance is immaterial to what others do with his work in a broader = context.=20 These particular implications are troubling to both the hydrino camp and = to the=20 CF camp, however, and are based on two very "telling" findings in this = paper.=20

Lets emphasize that IF... this experiment was not claimed by a = very=20 competent experimenter - to be *very high* in repeatability, perhaps = these=20 issues mentioned below could be ignored. But ten-out-of-ten is very = convincing=20 to any truth-seeker especially coming from a practitioner of LENR who = admits=20 up-front - the low-repeatability of CF inherent in normal experiments. = Here is=20 the=20 abstract:

         &n= bsp;           &nb= sp;     =20 Abstract
"We observed neutron emissions from pure deuterium gas after = it=20 cooled in the liquid
nitrogen followed by compressed under a magnetic = field.=20 The neutron count, and duration of the
release, and the time of the = release=20 after treatment was initiated all fluctuated considerably.
Neutron = emissions=20 were observed in ten test cases out of ten. Compared to the experiments=20 in
which neutrons were observed with electrolysis in a heavy water = solution,=20 repeatability was
highly good and the neutron count was = high."

WOW !=20 First, consider that the experiment is *unpowered* gas phase of = deuterium - no=20 loading - and that the surprisingly high neutron emissions, seen = early-on - are=20 absolutely gone, more or less, after 4000 seconds. Next let me = re-emphasize=20 *10-out-of-10* repeatability and "gone after 4000" seconds.

There = is an=20 obvious implication here that in any population of deuterons, that there = is a=20 small percentage of atoms where the neutron is more loosely-bound than = in the=20 bulk of the atoms, and once this low population of "meta-stable" = varieties are=20 removed, then the anomaly ceases.

Second, there is significant = but lesser=20 neutron emission from hydrogen alone! Assuming that this is not within = the range=20 of statistical error (arguable), then we are left to ponder whether this = neutron=20 emission could be the result of the "natural" level of deuterium, coming = from=20 either the H2O or methane precursor - whichever is the source of the gas = which=20 is used (unlikely); but even so, at a maximum of 300 ppm, this increase = of=20 approximately 40% in neutrons over baseline is anomalous and very = interesting.=20 Yet there is one good explanation for both of these = findings.

The=20 finding raises the likelihood of a metastable species- = and you=20 may have already guessed where I am going with this, if you have = followed the=20 hydrino forum, or Mills CQM. Needless to say, the theory and experiments = of R.=20 Mills are as controversial as those of Mizuno, and a small portion of = the theory=20 has recently been shown to be in mathematical error (causing the hydrino = list=20 owner to ban the most intelligent voice of dissent on that list, = unfortunately a=20 skeptic but a brilliant mathematician - which Mills is not) ... but.... = most of=20 Mills ideas are at least partially correct, if not equally brilliant in = their=20 own right. Has no one heard of moderation these days!! And in fairness = to Nora,=20 Mills is equally as egotistical and intransigent when proven wrong. Has = no one=20 heard of reconciliation of ideas these days! ...or seeking the truth and = dumping=20 the politics.
 
On this list, so far at least, I am = free to=20 pick-and-choose among all the conflicting arguably good ideas, and keep = only the=20 ones which are useful to a more general approach to the broader field of = LENR.=20 This would be impossible without knowing about CQM. But nowadays CQM = itself is=20 an actual impediment to understanding the BIG PICTURE. And by big, I = mean:=20 cosmological scale. If Mills does get the "big prize" it will be (IMHO) = for the=20 cosmological implications of hydrinos - which answer so very many things = cosmologically, but which Mills himself has probably gotten all wrong on = the=20 earthly end.

Back to the very important Mizuno = experiment.=20 IF there is a natural population of "redundant ground state" hydrogen = (or=20 deuterium) which is forming continuously in the solar corona, as Mills = suggests,=20 and which has been doing this for nearly 5 billion years, then some of = it would=20 likely survive the transit to earth and over geologic time, there would = be a=20 "natural" but low population of both hydrogen and deuterium (in = redundant ground=20 states - ergo with far different properties), which shows up first in = the oceans=20 and then later in hydrocarbons. This population could easily have = escaped=20 detection, till now, as it is identical in every respect except for = atomic size=20 and "near-field" charge. It is in a redundant ground state - BUT the = cause may=20 well have been an ENDOTHERMIC solar reaction, and any attempts to = actually=20 form hydrinos (at least in the first two drops 1/2 and 1/3) will fail to = produce=20 net energy as these may well be endothermic.

This putative = scenario - of=20 a "natural" population of "redundant ground state" hydrogen/ deuterium = could=20 explain this Mizuno experiment and much more (much of LENR even, = including the=20 lack of reproducibility). I can see no way around the fact that IF = Mizuno's=20 results are accurate, and 10-out-of-10 is a pretty good batting=20 average.... then there must be only a limited amount of this = "hyper-active"=20
or metastable deuterium in any starting population. By that, I mean = a=20 small  percentage of deuterium nuclei which are so loosely bound=20 - naturally - that almost any external constraint, such = as alternating=20 magnetism, will "strip" the neutron. One of these  metastable = species for=20 every [?? huge range of 10^10 to 10^20] normal atoms would suffice = to =20 explain this and probably many other phenomena in LENR such as excess = heat,=20 electrode transmutation, helium (from alpha emission following neutron=20 absorption) "heat after death", and the lack of reproducibility = (depleted=20 population of metastables)... the list goes on and on.

The fact = that=20 Mills' redundant ground state deuterium fits that description is=20 intriguing, as logically the much tighter electron orbital would = alter the=20 coulomb balance (as felt by the proton) only and especially when the = proton is=20 aligned in a strong magnetic field like Mizunos. But even Mills' = himself=20 does not acknowledge that the results he sees in his own = experiments could=20 be, in whole or in part, from primordial = solar-derived metastable=20 hydrogen, and not from the activity of the reaction-cell itself. The = cell maybe=20 net exothermic, due to solar hydrinos, even if the 1/2 and 1/3 stages of = hydrino=20 formation are endothermic.

IOW Mills has described how the = material could=20 have been created in the solar corona, but even he does not realize = that=20 all he has done in his experimental work is discover different = ways to=20 convert this
natural metastable entity - which is, in effect, a = strange kind=20 of solar energy. Factoid - Mills is only successful with a constant flow = of=20 hydrogen - which is NOT reused. He has never demonstrated that once UV = light has=20 been seen that the hydrogen can be reused. I say that there is the = possibility=20 that Mills has at least part of the mechanism backwards: to wit - = if the=20 starting gas has been totally depleted in "original" hydrinos, and none = were=20 added to compensate, then that gas cannot be reused. He has not shown=20 otherwise.

... at least that is my current = obsessive-scientific-fixation=20 and truth-search for this weekend, which will likely change the instant = someone=20 is able to shoot it down with any kind of non-politicized logic. Which = will=20 likely need to come from the "usual suspects" the several observers who=20 recognize the possibility of a cross-connection  - an many have = their=20 political agenda set to a default of no-hydrinos-in-LENR. Personally, I=20 am as certain of the cross-connection, as of the truth of either.=20 Coincidences this large do not happen in=20 science.

Jones
------=_NextPart_000_0023_01C5CBEE.A09EBDE0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 8 10:40:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j98HeFpc026829; Sat, 8 Oct 2005 10:40:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j98HeEXm026809; Sat, 8 Oct 2005 10:40:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 10:40:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [192.82.6.8] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes msn.com] X-Sender: mgoldes msn.com In-Reply-To: <20051008143012.51715.qmail web81102.mail.yahoo.com> From: "Mark Goldes" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Serpentine and Asbestos Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2005 10:39:51 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Oct 2005 17:39:52.0857 (UTC) FILETIME=[4A186890:01C5CC2F] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63686 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frank, It might be extremely important not to use Serpentine. Here in California, at least, it contains Asbestos. Fine particulates of the latter, as you undoubtedly are aware, lodge in lung tissue. As many horrendous lawsuits testify, that is a substance to stay far away from in any such application. Mark >From: Jones Beene >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com >To: vortex-l eskimo.com >Subject: Re: "Clap" and the Beta-atmosphere >Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 07:30:12 -0700 (PDT) > >Very interesting Frank, > >As I was reading this, I was expecting to see >sonochemistry mentioned - and am somewhat surprised >that it is not an alternative way to get >nano-particles of (whatever) into the oil. > >Of even greater interest would be the nano-chemistry >of carbon in good old H2O ... to be used as a "fuel" >of course. > >Wouldn't you love to know what the minimum level of >nano-particulated coal which could be ignited in an >ICE - it could result in something like carbon >reforming in-situ and might very possibly power the >vehicle with less overall CO2 than than petrol - but >that is pure speculation based on the superior >properties of steam over CO2 for translating heat to >work . > >BTW a friend of mine collects old glass bottles once >used in so-called "patent medicines" in the 1800s in >the USA. One of funniest was kind of like mugwump >http://www.answers.com/topic/mugwump-png >but aimed at recently freed slaves, and may have been >the genesis of the vulgar meaning of 'clap'... > >anyway, I doubt if it invovled either sonchemistry or >a real cure, and in 100 years some teenage geeks will >be looking back at these old messages from 2005 and >get a similar laugh at our level of ignorance. That is >progress... > >Jones > > >========================================================== > > Oct 6th 2005 > > From The Economist print edition > > > > A dose of Clap > > > > Putting dust in your engine sounds crazy. But it > > might > > not be. > > > > ALTHOUGH they need to fire their brand > > consultants, the > > inventors of Clap — an additive intended to > > improve the > > fuelefficiency of car engines—seem to be on to > > something. > > By pulverising a mineral called serpentine into > > particles > > a millionth of a millimetre in diameter, they have > > come > > up with an additive which, they claim, can improve > > the > > fuel consumption of old car engines by as much as > > 10%. > > And, a millionth of a metre being a nanometre > > (sic), > > they are also claiming that their product is an > > example > > of that much talked of, but little-seen field > > known as > > nanotechnology. > > > > The Clap project began in 1979 at the presciently > > named > > Institute of Nanotechnology in Moscow. The idea > > was to > > produce not a fuel additive, but a lubricant > > additive. > > The institute's engineers, led by Fiodor > > Wischnjewsky, > > thought that adding a suitably fine powder to an > > old > > engine's oil would effect continuous running > > repairs by > > filling in tiny cracks and abrasions in the > > cylinders > > and pistons. These irregularities make combustion > > inefficient, which increases both fuel consumption > > and > > pollution. > > > > This being first the Soviet Union and then Russia, > > > > nothing much happened until 2002 when Francesco > > Meneguzzo, an engineer at the Biometeorology > > Laboratory > > in Florence, got wind of the project. Then things > > started > > moving. > > > > The Italians ditched the Russians' efforts to > > design > > copper, zinc, aluminium and silver nanopowders. > > These > > rendered the oil too fluid. Instead, they > > concentrated > > on serpentine, a substance rich in magnesium > > silicate > > which was found to cling efficiently to the > > internal > > surfaces of all common petrol and diesel engines. > > > > The problem was how to crush this mineral into > > small > > enough particles on an industrial scale. > > Industrial > > grinding mills made of hardened steel cannot be > > used > > since they release heavy metals into the milled > > rock, > > replicating the problems of metallic nanopowders. > > To > > overcome this, the engineers came up with a > > two-stage > > process, the first stage of which goes back to the > > > > origins of grinding mills by employing actual > > millstones > > made of granite. The second stage is ultramodern, > > though. > > The particles of mineral-flour made by the > > millstones are > > blown into nanosmithereens by tiny electrical > > charges. > > > > The result, which requires a half-gram dose to be > > squirted into a car's oil every 40,000km, will go > > on > > sale in December. Old cars may soon, therefore, be > > > > clapped out in more senses than one > > > > > > >========================================================== > > > > > > When I was researching the strength of clays and > > stabilized > > soils, preparation of the material entailed mixing > > in a sun > > and planet mixer of the type used in the food > > industry. > > Depending on the moisture content the material > > reached an > > equilibrium at a particular grading of lump sizes. > > As any > > gardener would expect, the average lump size > > decreased as > > the moisture content decreased. > > > > At the equilibrium grading point there are two > > processes > > taking place. The larger lumps are being broken up > > into > > smaller lumps and the smaller lumps are coalescing > > into > > larger lumps. Individual mineral grains therefor are > > > > travelling up and down the lump size in a similar > > manner > > to, say, the way that individual water or air > > molecules > > travel up and down the vortex spectrum. > > > > To my surprise a literature search showed that in > > any > > mixing grinding process a similar equilibrium > > grading > > is formed. For instance if you grind up marble > > eventually > > you reach as stage where the particles of marble are > > > > "cold welding" themselves together as fast as they > > are > > being broken up. > > > > I believe that in grinding up the serpentine mineral > > as > > described above the manufacturers must have reached > > such > > an equilibrium boundary at well above the nano-scale > > > > size and that is why they had to find some other > > method > > to take them on down to the nano-scale. > > > > Now we have met the action of sparks before and > > suggested > > that they generate Beta-atmosphere vacua in the form > > of > > Beta-atmosphere vortices. I believe that is how the > > serpentine minerals are being broken up into > > nano-sized > > particles. In effect the serpentine is falling apart > > > > because it is no longer being held together by > > ambient > > external Beta-atmosphere pressure. > > > > Assuming the above view is correct, I doubt if > > serpentine > > is essential to process. I would imagine that many > > other > > minerals would be as good or better. > > > > Cheers, > > > > Frank Grimer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 8 11:11:01 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j98IAUSG006202; Sat, 8 Oct 2005 11:10:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j98IASdF006185; Sat, 8 Oct 2005 11:10:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 11:10:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20051008181006555.87AAC2400084 mwinf3201.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20051008181007.00975240 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2005 19:10:07 +0100 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Serpentine and Asbestos Resent-Message-ID: <-HRsL.A.lgB.UuASDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63687 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sat, 08 Oct 2005 10:41:24 -0700 Mark Goldes wrote Frank, It might be extremely important not to use Serpentine. Here in California, at least, it contains Asbestos. Fine particulates of the latter, as you undoubtedly are aware, lodge in lung tissue. As many horrendous lawsuits testify, that is a substance to stay far away from in any such application. Mark Good point. I understand however that there is a form of Serpentine which does not contain asbestos. Hopefully, this is the one they used. Another point to be considered is that if the mineral is comminuted down to nano sized particles, any needle like character may be destroyed in which case even the asbestos containing Serpentines would not have the same effect on the lungs as blue asbestos, say. >From what I remember of my work on glass-fibre reinforced cement, the particle size is critical. This is why glass fibres are not considered hazardous. That's what the manufacturers claim, anyway (for what it's worth). Cheers, Frank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 8 13:27:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j98KRELT029669; Sat, 8 Oct 2005 13:27:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j98KRDQB029652; Sat, 8 Oct 2005 13:27:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 13:27:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: More PolySci less SciPolitics X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 8324edccdbae1c0007349b58b3c30403 Reply-To: michael.foster excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20051008202652.57DE13DDC xprdmailfe6.nwk.excite.com> Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 16:26:52 -0400 (EDT) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63688 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I don't think I could possibly agree more with what you have put forth here. I can only say, "Yea, verily." I was unaware of Mizumo's low temp D2 magnetic field experiment. I need to read through all the stuff on Jed's website more thoroughly. I have the D2; I usually have liquid nitrogen on hand, but is neutron detection difficult or expensive? Most of my own CF research has been done with D2, I gave up on electrolysis long ago, as I look on it as an interesting dead end. M. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 8 13:51:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j98Koxa9007716; Sat, 8 Oct 2005 13:51:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j98Kov9N007693; Sat, 8 Oct 2005 13:50:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 13:50:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000401c5cc49$eaee4590$1714fea9 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: , References: <20051008202652.57DE13DDC xprdmailfe6.nwk.excite.com> Subject: Re: More PolySci less SciPolitics Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 13:50:28 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63689 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Foster" > I have the D2; I usually > have liquid nitrogen on hand, but is neutron detection > difficult or expensive? It is relatively easy with CR-39 film. See Prof.L. Kowalski's site: http://blake.montclair.edu/~kowalskil/cf/185about39.html Avoid the expensive neutron-only He3 detectors unless you are well-heeled and can afford the very best, as the cheaper ones are not accurate. If anything, Mizuno's measurements were on the low side (if he missed the very low energy neutron spectrum). There could have been more than he takes credit for. This film method is both easy, accurate and fairly cheap. It cannot be fooled by RF as can GM or other high voltage tubes. There is some evidence that neutrons from "stripping" can be very low in kinetic energy - subthermal even - in which case they do not get picked up with as good accuracy with just CR-39 (maybe) but a setup with two detectors CR-39 plus a borax covered GM tube might help. There are some good tips for high kinetic neutron detection on the Farnsworth site. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 8 14:22:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j98LLfcB019253; Sat, 8 Oct 2005 14:21:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j98LLeK4019243; Sat, 8 Oct 2005 14:21:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 14:21:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=w1uNlpd6dk2+S0/mwyd06+9E6L2Uf7geD2NW5EK6Q4Lc+gLXfXTjNlx7UU6FyTp9uiuYrkCa53aebFpo5umIZNj3VexSgydFGw+0fODyRb7yKRv17Kto1v7gxufciOoGaxnrCgNP5ESOAZV4bCALN2E6/OQU5RDlBeU7t+137xs= ; Message-ID: <20051008212117.10019.qmail web35002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 14:21:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Rhong Dhong Subject: Re: space elevators & untra ultralight materials To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <4347DF12.1000701 iinet.net.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63690 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Wesley Bruce wrote: > Not quite the bottom few kilometers would need to be > alittle stifer than > the rest of the cable. Winds at higher altitudes are > not a problem on > the equater but at ground level a few precautions > are advisable. For the > other application, solar chimneys 1000 meters will > do fine. For > aerospace taking any weight off helps heaps. > What would happen if you had a balloon ballasted to float over the weather, with a cable dangling down to take the weight of the solar chimney? Would the winds under the weather make it useless, or could they be kept under control? For that matter, could the movement of the cable be translated into work of some kind? __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 8 17:38:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j990blUt018227; Sat, 8 Oct 2005 17:38:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j990bjcG018206; Sat, 8 Oct 2005 17:37:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 17:37:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l eskimo.com, Rhong Dhong Subject: Re: space elevators & untra ultralight materials Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 20:40:32 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <20051008212117.10019.qmail web35002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20051008212117.10019.qmail web35002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200510082040.32360.rockcast earthlink.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63691 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Saturday 08 October 2005 17:21, Rhong Dhong wrote: > --- Wesley Bruce wrote: > > Not quite the bottom few kilometers would need to be > > alittle stifer than > > the rest of the cable. Winds at higher altitudes are > > not a problem on > > the equater but at ground level a few precautions > > are advisable. For the > > other application, solar chimneys 1000 meters will > > do fine. For > > aerospace taking any weight off helps heaps. > > What would happen if you had a balloon ballasted to > float over the weather, with a cable dangling down to > take the weight of the solar chimney? > > Would the winds under the weather make it useless, or > could they be kept under control? > > For that matter, could the movement of the cable be > translated into work of some kind? > > Mr Dhong, For your info, there is a website published by a company seeking to do just as you propose-- send a 'balloon to space. It is called JP Aerospace and their website is: jpairospace.com They bill it as 'America's other space program. It is quite a radical program. They are working on materials light enough and strong enough to facilitate a two stage system of space travel. First is an ascender, a very large semi-rigid derigible type maybe a thousand feet long and shaped in a 'V'. This will carry passengers and maybe some tons of cargo to an altitude of about 200,000 feet, just on the edge of the atmosphere and the end of buoyancy for derigible type objects. It is here that crew and cargo will transfer to another semi-rigid derigible in stationary hover. That they call their 'dark sky station'. It, according to their PDF, will be about a mile and a quarter in diameter and look like a giant asterisk. This is the lower space port for the spacer. The spacer will be about 6000 feet long and again look like a 'V'. It will be fitted with solar electric thrusters. Its job will be to pick up its cargo and passengers and then embark on a long spiral path much like the European Space Agencie's "SMART-1" and use its solar thrusters and a small amount of the gas in the ascender to gradually pick up speed and achieve orbital velocity. By the time it has gotten to 30,000 miles altitude it will dock again with another space station, a rigid and shielded one this time, and deposit its cargo and passengers. After taking on cargo and passengers for the return to earth, it will reverse the process. The point is that all this will be done veeeerrrrrryyyyy slllloooowwwwwwllllllyyyyy.......but safely. Not having an atmosphere to give wind problems, it will not have to be very rigid, and its large surface area for amorphous solar cells will give it very high power for its electric thrusters. Right now it has a contract with the government for proof of concept prototypes. Some of the Vortexians, I am sure, know of this. Standing Bear Hey, I do not care if we have to build an Orion, any way we can get back and forth cheaply and safely to space I am for. And I DO want to see this done before I die. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 8 21:13:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j994D39p025277; Sat, 8 Oct 2005 21:13:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j994D1Y1025243; Sat, 8 Oct 2005 21:13:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 21:13:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=XnDYewXQMNlbQIg4w83pznHRzDjraSNU+4rcI9h8ndVLeUnITwKGWyKLonQc4Y0GoseyIgvH+ubfPuUCPfPzlN5whomr+MJS0bVZ219cNGdFZyRU0P9Tp6qR6xZdU/MIPjYaF6Z+NPZM7HLDIeJ86SpFFZscEF2N87Goxy+hNKI= ; Message-ID: <20051009041237.71522.qmail web34608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 21:12:37 -0700 (PDT) From: not used account Subject: Re: Control of the Scientific Mind To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <000c01c5cbac$470858f0$ac027841 xptower> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="0-734081291-1128831157=:71490" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <4j-0oD.A.UKG.MjJSDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63692 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-734081291-1128831157=:71490 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Id: Content-Disposition: inline Have you analyzed these tv adds with some cool audio or scope type of equipment? Please tell more information with some proof:) > Each TV ad is > superimposed over sound. This sound is NOT music but > has an inference to music. The insidious nature of > the sound is that it attempts to compel one to try > to search out a musical cadence. The disturbing > reaction one gets from the sound allows the message > of the ad to reach a subliminal resonance with the > brain. > > What is uncertain is the actual message being > introduced, it may NOT be for advertizing purposes. > > Richard > Thanks, Joe __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ --0-734081291-1128831157=:71490-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 8 23:39:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j996dOPk012330; Sat, 8 Oct 2005 23:39:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j996dMT4012311; Sat, 8 Oct 2005 23:39:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 23:39:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: More PolySci less SciPolitics Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 16:39:00 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20051008202652.57DE13DDC xprdmailfe6.nwk.excite.com> <000401c5cc49$eaee4590$1714fea9@NuDell> In-Reply-To: <000401c5cc49$eaee4590$1714fea9 NuDell> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.77.227] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Sun, 9 Oct 2005 06:38:59 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j996d4gD012159 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63693 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Sat, 8 Oct 2005 13:50:28 -0700: Hi, [snip] >> I have the D2; I usually >> have liquid nitrogen on hand, but is neutron detection >> difficult or expensive? > >It is relatively easy with CR-39 film. See Prof.L. Kowalski's >site: >http://blake.montclair.edu/~kowalskil/cf/185about39.html How does the neutron get converted into an alpha particle so that the film will detect it? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk In a town full of candlestick makers, everyone lives in the light, In a town full of thieves, there is only one candle, and everyone lives in the night. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 9 07:17:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j99EGost009452; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 07:17:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j99EGmaN009422; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 07:16:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 07:16:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002001c5ccdc$0851b0d0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20051008202652.57DE13DDC xprdmailfe6.nwk.excite.com> <000401c5cc49$eaee4590$1714fea9@NuDell> Subject: Re: More PolySci less SciPolitics Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 07:16:24 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001D_01C5CCA1.5B50CC70" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63694 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C5CCA1.5B50CC70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Robin=20 > How does the neutron get converted into an alpha particle so that > the film will detect it? Thanks for mentioning this - I meant to add it to the original post. There are any number of ways, but the most reliable is to buy = specialized CR-39 film for this, with the boron impregnated - as there = is a thin line between "blocking" and "enhancing," and "thin" is the = operative word here - so it is a bit of an art. There are companies = making specialized CR-39 products for detecting neutrons, and It would = be good to do a thorough web search, but here is one such company: http://www.dosimetry.com/prod/cr39.html This company has thermoluminescent dosimeters (TLDs) which utilizes = lithium borate and calcium sulfate. This combination responds to = neutrons, as well as, beta, gamma and X-ray radiation.=20 A cheaper home-made solution might involve Borax or boric acid, which = are inexpensive sources of boron, available in any drug store. Other of = the so-called neutron "poisons" such as cadmium compounds also produce = alphas but they can be delayed whereas the boron alphas are prompt.=20 For those who do not know the mechanism involved - this is based on the = nuclear reaction that occurs when the stable isotope10B, which is 20% of = natural boron, absorbs a low energy 'thermal' neutron (cross-section = nearly 4000 barns) to yield a highly energetic helium-4 (i.e.,alpha = particle) and 180 degree recoiling Lithium-7 (7Li) ion. The alpha caries = away ~1.5 MeV of energy and the lithium ~840 KeV so either of these two = will also emit secondary gammas, which can be picked up with a simple GM = detector (and that is the poor man's method) but as the alphas = themselves are easily stopped by a thick layer, ergo use with normal = film is an art. Because of the high cross section, neutrons can be = stopped by a thin enough layer but the alpha is not. Speicalized film is = probably the best if you want to publish your results, but the borax+GM = is simpler, and can be accurate for you own uses if you have first = calibrated it using the film.=20 ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C5CCA1.5B50CC70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Robin

> How does the neutron = get=20 converted into an alpha particle so that
> the film will detect=20 it?
Thanks for mentioning this - I meant to = add it to=20 the original post.

There are any number of ways, but the most = reliable is=20 to buy specialized CR-39 film for this, with the boron impregnated - as = there is=20 a thin line between "blocking" and "enhancing," and "thin" is=20 the operative word here - so it is a bit of an art. There are=20 companies making specialized CR-39 products for detecting neutrons, and = It would=20 be good to do a thorough web search, but here is one such company:
http://www.dosimetry.com= /prod/cr39.html
This company has thermoluminescent = dosimeters=20 (TLDs) which utilizes lithium borate and calcium sulfate. This = combination=20 responds to neutrons, as well as, beta, gamma and X-ray radiation.=20

A cheaper home-made solution might involve Borax or boric acid, = which are inexpensive sources of boron, available in any drug = store. Other=20 of the so-called neutron "poisons" such as cadmium compounds also = produce alphas=20 but they can be delayed whereas the boron alphas are prompt.
 
For those who do not know the mechanism involved - this is based on = the=20 nuclear reaction that occurs when the stable isotope10B, which is 20% of = natural=20 boron, absorbs a low energy 'thermal' neutron (cross-section nearly 4000 = barns)=20 to yield a highly energetic helium-4 (i.e.,alpha particle) and 180 = degree=20 recoiling Lithium-7 (7Li) ion. The alpha caries away ~1.5 MeV of energy = and the=20 lithium ~840 KeV so either of these two will also emit secondary gammas, = which=20 can be picked up with a simple GM detector (and that is the poor man's = method)=20 but as the alphas themselves are easily stopped by a thick layer, = ergo use=20 with normal film is an art. Because of the high cross section, neutrons = can be=20 stopped by a thin enough layer but the alpha is not. Speicalized = film is=20 probably the best if you want to publish your results, but the borax+GM = is=20 simpler, and can be accurate for you own uses if you have first = calibrated it=20 using the film.
------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C5CCA1.5B50CC70-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 9 11:35:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j99IYYeg025029; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 11:34:53 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j99IYVjX024988; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 11:34:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 11:34:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=aEnK/e9W/Y26pwAQV/oeEnVz9uuVU8LOShv8s1Re81lx6O4tN/4BphiaErTMkafm; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220051009173319560 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Carbon Tetrachloride Engines Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 12:33:19 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9407b75d4c10721a9d7c00a850921e3eb6c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.165.191 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63695 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Carbon Tetrachloride CCl4 (13.3 Lb/gallon) has a vapor pressure of 91.3 Torr at 20 F, freezes at - 10 F, boils at 171 F and develops 132 PSIG pressure at 352 F, a heat of vaporization of 90 BTU/LB, with a Carnot efficiency of 22.4% working between those two temperatures. It's vapor would make a great "steam" for a Closed Cycle Solar powered engine (even with the collector on top of a vehicle and a CNG backup heater). There are safety risks that need to be taken into account though. In the military in early1950s we used it like wash water. It was also used in the fire extinguisher in our one-room grade school where I was in the top 3rd of our class (there were three of us) http://www.epa.gov/ttn/atw/hlthef/carbonte.html "Carbon tetrachloride was produced in large quantities to make refrigerants and propellants for aerosol cans, as a solvent for oils, fats, lacquers, varnishes, rubber waxes, and resins, and as a grain fumigant and a dry cleaning agent. Consumer and fumigant uses have been discontinued and only industrial uses remain." Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Carbon Tetrachloride CCl4 (13.3 Lb/gallon) has a vapor pressure of 91.3 Torr at 20 F,
freezes at - 10 F, boils at 171 F and develops 132 PSIG pressure at 352 F,
a heat of vaporization of 90 BTU/LB, with a Carnot efficiency of 22.4% working between
those two temperatures. It's vapor  would make a great "steam" for a Closed Cycle Solar powered
engine (even with the collector on top of a vehicle and a CNG backup heater).
 
There are safety risks that need to be taken into account though. In the military in early1950s
we used it like wash water. It was also used in the fire extinguisher in our one-room grade school
where I was in the top 3rd of our class (there were three of us)  
 
 
"Carbon tetrachloride was produced in large quantities to make refrigerants and propellants for aerosol cans, as a solvent for oils, fats, lacquers, varnishes, rubber waxes, and resins, and as a grain fumigant and a dry cleaning agent.  Consumer and fumigant uses have been discontinued and only industrial uses remain."
 
Frederick
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 9 12:14:21 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j99JDqk0013251; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 12:14:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j99JDpS1013237; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 12:13:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 12:13:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [65.83.204.77] X-Originating-Email: [caliostro1795 hotmail.com] X-Sender: caliostro1795 hotmail.com In-Reply-To: <002601c5cc29$4d989d60$1714fea9 NuDell> From: "Alex Caliostro" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: More PolySci less SciPolitics Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 13:13:30 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Oct 2005 19:13:30.0937 (UTC) FILETIME=[89252290:01C5CD05] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63696 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >From: "Jones Beene" re mizuno > Abstract >"We observed neutron emissions from pure deuterium gas after it cooled in >the liquid >nitrogen followed by compressed under a magnetic field. The neutron count, >and duration of the >release, and the time of the release after treatment was initiated all >fluctuated considerably. >Neutron emissions were observed in ten test cases out of ten. Compared to >the experiments in >which neutrons were observed with electrolysis in a heavy water solution, >repeatability was >highly good and the neutron count was high." why was the d2 kooled to 63 K -- is there a key in the energy of collision are lenr and hydrino technology simply based on collisions which allow nucleii to interact without the shielding of the e- does a slower collision mean less bounce and more interaction is the result of mizuno neutron emission a higher concentration of h2 and less d2 enquiring minds want to know mr tuttle - or should i say 'the nero' _____ -alex _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 9 14:41:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j99LeuRV012653; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 14:41:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j99Lesr1012620; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 14:40:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 14:40:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: More PolySci less SciPolitics Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 07:40:28 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20051008202652.57DE13DDC xprdmailfe6.nwk.excite.com> <000401c5cc49$eaee4590$1714fea9@NuDell> <002001c5ccdc$0851b0d0$6401a8c0@NuDell> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.77.227] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Sun, 9 Oct 2005 21:40:27 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j99LeZOh012443 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63697 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Robin van Spaandonk's message of Mon, 10 Oct 2005 07:35:50 +1000: Hi, [snip] >This picture however changes appreciably if pure B10 is >substituted for natural Boron. [snip] There is of course another option. Just add Boron to the compound designed to reveal the tracks, then a single layer can be used for both purposes. The layer can then be made as thick as necessary to stop all the neutrons. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk In a town full of candlestick makers, everyone lives in the light, In a town full of thieves, there is only one candle, and everyone lives in the night. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 9 14:50:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j99LnptA016775; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 14:50:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j99Lno90016760; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 14:49:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 14:49:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: More PolySci less SciPolitics Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 07:49:27 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <534jk1hjmmsvistu71lgn2t5t2asev9bfs 4ax.com> References: <20051008202652.57DE13DDC xprdmailfe6.nwk.excite.com> <000401c5cc49$eaee4590$1714fea9@NuDell> <002001c5ccdc$0851b0d0$6401a8c0@NuDell> In-Reply-To: <002001c5ccdc$0851b0d0$6401a8c0 NuDell> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta02ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.77.227] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Sun, 9 Oct 2005 21:49:27 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j99LnWna016655 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63698 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Sun, 9 Oct 2005 07:16:24 -0700: Hi, [snip] >For those who do not know the mechanism involved - this is based on the nuclear reaction that occurs when the stable isotope10B, which is 20% of natural boron, absorbs a low energy 'thermal' neutron (cross-section nearly 4000 barns) to yield a highly energetic helium-4 (i.e.,alpha particle) and 180 degree recoiling Lithium-7 (7Li) ion. The alpha caries away ~1.5 MeV of energy and the lithium ~840 KeV so either of these two will also emit secondary gammas, which can be picked up with a simple GM detector (and that is the poor man's method) but as the alphas themselves are easily stopped by a thick layer, ergo use with normal film is an art. Because of the high cross section, neutrons can be stopped by a thin enough layer but the alpha is not. Even at 3837 barns in pure Boron, the mean free path for the neutron is 19.9 microns / 19.7% = 101 microns. This is considerably larger than the stopping distance of alpha particles in a solid (usually on the order of 10-20 microns, and these are comparatively low energy alphas - so the stopping distance will be on the short side). In a Boron compound, the distance between Boron nuclei will be even larger, hence the mean free path greater. This implies as far as I can tell, that even an optimally configured strip may not detect up to 90% of the available neutrons. If any of the neutrons have a higher energy, they will probably not be detected at all. Neutrons with much less than thermal energy which might have an improved chance of being captured, will unfortunately be thermalized after very few collisions ( 1 on average), hence have essentially no range, and consequently don't "exist". This picture however changes appreciably if pure B10 is substituted for natural Boron. (MFP determined be dividing the atomic volume by the cross section). [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk In a town full of candlestick makers, everyone lives in the light, In a town full of thieves, there is only one candle, and everyone lives in the night. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 9 18:24:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9A1NfOr023159; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 18:23:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9A1NTPf023079; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 18:23:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 18:23:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 20:22:58 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: spy chip vapper Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63699 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vortexians; I've heard several people interviewed on C to C AM about this matter. The answer isn't to protest, see http://www.spychips.com/ , IMHO, there should be a way to expose these things to the right frequency pulse and fry them. There should be a good market for these zappers among the Black Helicopter crowd. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 9 19:40:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9A2dijw000403; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 19:39:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9A2ddVZ000360; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 19:39:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 19:39:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002301c5cd43$cf0cc270$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20051008202652.57DE13DDC xprdmailfe6.nwk.excite.com> <000401c5cc49$eaee4590$1714fea9@NuDell> <002001c5ccdc$0851b0d0$6401a8c0@NuDell> Subject: Re: More PolySci less SciPolitics Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 19:39:16 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <2tZYD.A.kF.rRdSDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63700 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin > There is of course another option. Just add Boron to the > compound > designed to reveal the tracks, then a single layer can be used > for > both purposes. The layer can then be made as thick as necessary > to > stop all the neutrons. Yes . That is why I mentioned the commercial products - this mixed-layer film containing boron is exactly what they are doing - and hopefully have perfected. It would be nice to know what percentage of neutrons are picked up with these commercial films, and it probably varies by supplier. The beauty of film is that you have a "smoking gun" so to speak. This is probably why Prof Kowalski is so sold on it, as it eliminates many factors, and especially "experimenter exuberance," which can distort other kinds of neutron counters which demand rigorous calibration. If Michael or anyone else, is going to try to reproduce this Mizuno neutron effort (and it is a simple experiment if you have LN on hand) and needs/wants assistance to design a good cheap neutron setup, contact me offlist and perhaps we can figure out the best way to go, given what you have to work with. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 9 19:46:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9A2jZu1003136; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 19:45:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9A2jXZE003110; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 19:45:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 19:45:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000601c5cd44$9f08ee40$ac027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: Subject: Re: spy chip vapper Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 21:45:04 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.8 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63701 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thomas, It doesn't stop at supermarkets. Texas has new laws that permit an embedded chip in all new 2006 windshield liscense stickers that can be read at toll booths. Interesting construction of " rest stops" along IH 10 near Columbus Texas. The construction includes covered " gateways" for vehicles to pass under similar to a border crossing gateway. With electronics today, there is actually NO limit as to what the chip can display in way of information. Appears we have gone beyond big brother to " big mother". Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: "thomas malloy" To: Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2005 8:22 PM Subject: spy chip vapper > Vortexians; > > I've heard several people interviewed on C to C AM about this matter. The > answer isn't to protest, see http://www.spychips.com/ , IMHO, there should > be a way to expose these things to the right frequency pulse and fry them. > There should be a good market for these zappers among the Black Helicopter > crowd. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 9 20:37:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9A3aWVa026563; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 20:36:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9A3aT3x026516; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 20:36:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 20:36:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: More PolySci less SciPolitics Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 13:36:05 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20051008202652.57DE13DDC xprdmailfe6.nwk.excite.com> <000401c5cc49$eaee4590$1714fea9@NuDell> <002001c5ccdc$0851b0d0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <002301c5cd43$cf0cc270$6401a8c0@NuDell> In-Reply-To: <002301c5cd43$cf0cc270$6401a8c0 NuDell> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta01ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.77.227] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Mon, 10 Oct 2005 03:36:04 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j9A3a9bV026311 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63702 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Sun, 9 Oct 2005 19:39:16 -0700: Hi, [snip] >Yes . That is why I mentioned the commercial products - this >mixed-layer film containing boron is exactly what they are doing - >and hopefully have perfected. [snip] This does lead to another question though. How does one determine the extent to which commercial film has already been exposed by cosmic rays while still in the packaging? Presumably one compares samples fresh from the pack with samples exposed to the experiment? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk In a town full of candlestick makers, everyone lives in the light, In a town full of thieves, there is only one candle, and everyone lives in the night. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 9 20:37:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9A3bPYt027176; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 20:37:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9A3bMKs027125; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 20:37:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 20:37:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: spy chip vapper Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 23:40:40 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <000601c5cd44$9f08ee40$ac027841@xptower> In-Reply-To: <000601c5cd44$9f08ee40$ac027841 xptower> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200510092340.40245.rockcast earthlink.net> Resent-Message-ID: <8Eafd.A.xnG.xHeSDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63703 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sunday 09 October 2005 22:45, RC Macaulay wrote: > Thomas, > It doesn't stop at supermarkets. Texas has new laws that permit an embedded > chip in all new 2006 windshield liscense stickers that can be read at toll > booths. Interesting construction of " rest stops" along IH 10 near Columbus > Texas. The construction includes covered " gateways" for vehicles to pass > under similar to a border crossing gateway. > With electronics today, there is actually NO limit as to what the chip can > display in way of information. > Appears we have gone beyond big brother to " big mother". > Richard > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "thomas malloy" > To: > Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2005 8:22 PM > Subject: spy chip vapper > > > Vortexians; > > > > I've heard several people interviewed on C to C AM about this matter. The > > answer isn't to protest, see http://www.spychips.com/ , IMHO, there > > should be a way to expose these things to the right frequency pulse and > > fry them. There should be a good market for these zappers among the Black > > Helicopter crowd. Couple of items come to mind. Tesla Coil and conductive grounded plate under offending sticker; or large car hi fi speaker permanent magnet while fully powered at about 1000 watts electrical energy exposing many oersteds of magnetic flux varying to .........death by heavy metal music to the 'chip' From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 10 07:02:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9AE2AGr011094; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 07:02:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9AE28iM011069; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 07:02:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 07:02:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] X-Originating-Email: [caliostro1795 hotmail.com] X-Sender: caliostro1795 hotmail.com In-Reply-To: From: "Alex Caliostro" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: spy chip vapper Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 08:01:39 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Oct 2005 14:01:40.0076 (UTC) FILETIME=[230412C0:01C5CDA3] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63704 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >From: thomas malloy >I've heard several people interviewed on C to C AM about this matter. The >answer isn't to protest, see http://www.spychips.com/ , IMHO, there should >be a way to expose these things to the right frequency pulse and fry them. >There should be a good market for these zappers among the Black Helicopter >crowd. 2.5 GHz seems to work okay http://www.prisonplanet.com/022904rfidtagsexplode.html kinda damages your cash tho _____ -alex _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 10 08:17:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9AFHR9U003273; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 08:17:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9AFHLt3003228; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 08:17:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 08:17:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=l7gW5Q3EqVIkJ1X3FQa//D8QF58K6OnIuAR6gxX/kDSh7mr743uL5vs0nW90jm/z; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220051011014163940 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Simple Solar-Fossil Steam Engines Using Air Motors Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 09:16:03 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940008246b23bab8195dcf24385eb73c0a5350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.189 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63705 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII No reason why slightly modified or home built versions of these can't operate as steam engines. Cutaway drawings of piston and rotary vane types etc.: http://www.hydraulicspneumatics.com/200/TechZone/FluidPowerAcces/Article/True/6422/TechZone-FluidPowerAcces "Power characteristics of air motors are similar to those of series-wound DC motors. With a constant inlet pressure, the brake horsepower of an air motor is zero at zero speed. Power increases with increasing speed until it peaks at around 50% of free speed (maximum speed under no-load conditions), Figure 4. At the peak point, torque decrease balances speed increase. Power decreases to zero when torque is zero, because all the inlet air power is used to force the volume of air required to maintain this speed through the motor." Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

No reason why slightly modified or home built
versions of these can't operate as steam engines.
 
Cutaway drawings of piston and rotary vane types etc.:
 
 
"Power characteristics of air motors are similar to those of series-wound DC motors. With a constant inlet pressure, the brake horsepower of an air motor is zero at zero speed. Power increases with increasing speed until it peaks at around 50% of free speed (maximum speed under no-load conditions), Figure 4.

At the peak point, torque decrease balances speed increase. Power decreases to zero when torque is zero, because all the inlet air power is used to force the volume of air required to maintain this speed through the motor."

 
Frederick
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 10 08:39:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9AFd1S7014777; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 08:39:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9AFd0Lg014762; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 08:39:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 08:39:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051010113012.04feaeb0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 11:38:03 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Cavitation paper from Farzan Amini Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63706 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Getting back to the original ORIGINAL purpose of this discussion group . . . An engineer named Farzan Amini (f.amini farab.com) sent me a short paper on cavitation effects at a hydroelectric dam where he works, in Iraq. The English in this paper needs some editing, and I think the paper needs another page or so of text to explain what the author has in mind, but it looks promising. I may upload it after some more work has been done on it, but for now, anyone interested in this subject should contact me for a copy. Attached is the title and abstract. - Jed - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Production Method for Violent TCB Jet Plasma from Cavity Farzan Amini Nuclear Engineer(MSc.) .Mechanical Engineer(BSc.) farzanamini yahoo.com 1. Introduction One of the hydropower plants in our country has 4 Francis turbines so that two units on the right way(looking downstream) share a common penstock and a common long tailrace tunnel and other two units on the left also share a penstock and tailrace tunnel. Upon commissioning of one unit, the hydraulic transient in the draft tube during load rejection above 75% was excessive. It was apparent that the guide vane closing law that had been adopted would result in water column separation during load rejection at full power. Tests with a slower closing rate showed that the risk of column separation was reduced, but a violent surge developed in the draft tube close to maximum over speed. The measurement equipment in this experiment have a sampling time of 0.01 sec. The energy level and cavity volume that are produced are much more than those of regular TCB(Transients Cavitation Bubbles) experiments, and therefore, we should expect more effects than the TCB jet. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 10 08:55:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9AFsjcG025577; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 08:55:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9AFsgXa025546; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 08:54:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 08:54:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <006001c5cdb2$dfd81400$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: Primordial Hy ? Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 08:54:18 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_005D_01C5CD78.3312B200" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63707 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_005D_01C5CD78.3312B200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Does anyone out there in Vo-land - especially Robin (who follows these = things intently) care to go out on a limb and speculate on the further = implications of the following scenario.... First, let us assume that hydrinos ("redundant ground state" hydrogen = and/or deuterium) are produced in large quantities continually the solar = corona. There is real proof for this contention.=20 Although the tonnage of these hydrinos reaching earth in the "solar = wind" is not great in any given year - this process has been ongoing for = 5 billion years. Ergo, there could be now a substantial population of = hydrinos in seawater, if they are as stable as Mills suggests, and some = of these would eventually turn up in hydrogen (especially deuterium) = gas, used in experiments.=20 What are the further implications, and why would these not have been = noticed (before 1989 ;-) ? The first one I would like to throw out involves H-O-Hy, or = hydrino-water, as it matriculates in the vast oceans of earth, and in = the presence of cosmic radiation over geologic time.=20 We know that ground state hydrogen has a remarkably high thermal neutron = capture characteristic, and it is conceivable that Hy would be even = greater. Consequently over geologic time most Hy arriving in the solar = wind might now have been already converted to the deuterino or = heavy-hydrino (Dy) anyway, due to constant exposure to the background = neutron flux caused by cosmic radiation, uranium dissolved in seawater = and weather (neutrons cause by lightning). Mills has never adequately addressed the possibility of H-O-Hy or = hydrino-water, and certainly not H-O-Dy or heavy-hydrino-water. = Therefore we are without much guidance from the godfather of it all - = other than the Mizuno findings. Perhaps Mills has never even considered = these implications.=20 However... as soon as Mizuno is independently replicated, WATCH OUT, as = the implications - especially for LENR, may blow the socks off of the = physics-mainstream. [side note] Wouldn't it be curious (more like = poetic-tragic), if Mizuno ends up stealing most of the Mills' thunder = with such a simple experiment, and given he may not have ever even heard = of Mills and certainly does not credit the redundant ground state idea = in any of his own conclusions. Given the Mills' assertion (or is it only Robin's), that a hydrino which = is further "pumped" up past a certain redundancy, will continue to = shrink, auto-catalytically, to become an energy-poor quasi-neutron... = then... anytime neutrons are observed anomalously, we must consider this = *primordial* and natural source of either Hy or Dy, first, as a possible = explanation for the anomaly.=20 With deuterium (deuterino), the pathway to a neutron-anomaly takes less = of a leap of faith than with a hydrino, as a "shrunken" deuterino would = have as its only distinguishing characteristic - the electron orbital = being much closer to the nucleus. That negative charge, as felt by the = proton, would be intensified. This is a power law situation. The = deuteron nucleus is always highly elongated anyway, often called a = "barbell" shape, and once the proton-side of a deuterino is "pulled" = further than normal away from the neutron by the negative charge (of the = closer electron) i.e. it becomes detached further away from its neutron = than what normally happens in a ground-state deuteron, then the "strong = force" drops off to zero *very quickly* and the nucleus becomes unbound. = Perhaps this is an ongoing and cyclical process which happens = frequently, but most of the time the two particles reunite in situ. The = strong force is very powerful, but also very localized, and drops to = zero quickly - yet it is the only force keeping the two entities bound - = Except - the neutron may have a slightly negative near field which helps = also to reunite the two - and maybe that is why this free-neutron = doesn't happen more frequently.=20 The fringe science archives are replete with anecdotal evidence of = neutron anomalies - often called neutron "stripping" or the = Oppenhiemer-Phillips effect (O-P effect). What are other implications of primordial hydrinos ?=20 "Provocateur" of the day...potential "breakthrough" of the new = millennium, or is all of this neutron anomaly speculation no more than = a quaint variation on "la loi d' emmerdement maximum"... Jones ------=_NextPart_000_005D_01C5CD78.3312B200 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Does anyone out there in Vo-land - = especially Robin=20 (who follows these things intently) care to go out on a limb and = speculate on=20 the further implications of the following scenario....

First, let = us=20 assume that hydrinos ("redundant ground state" hydrogen and/or = deuterium) are=20 produced in large quantities continually the solar corona. There is real = proof=20 for this contention.
 
Although the tonnage of these hydrinos = reaching=20 earth in the "solar wind" is not great in any given year - this process = has been=20 ongoing for 5 billion years. Ergo, there could be now a substantial = population of hydrinos in seawater, if they are as stable as Mills = suggests, and=20 some of these would eventually turn up in hydrogen (especially = deuterium) gas,=20 used in experiments.

What are the further implications, and why would these not have = been=20 noticed (before 1989 ;-) ?
 
The first one I would like to throw out involves H-O-Hy, or = hydrino-water,=20 as it matriculates in the vast oceans of earth, and in the presence = of=20 cosmic radiation over geologic time.
 
We know that ground state hydrogen has a remarkably high thermal = neutron=20 capture characteristic, and it is conceivable that Hy would be even = greater.=20 Consequently over geologic time most Hy arriving in the solar wind might = now=20 have been already converted to the deuterino or heavy-hydrino=20 (Dy) anyway, due to constant exposure to the background neutron = flux caused=20 by cosmic radiation, uranium dissolved in seawater and weather (neutrons = cause=20 by lightning).

Mills has never adequately addressed the possibility of H-O-Hy = or=20 hydrino-water, and certainly not H-O-Dy or heavy-hydrino-water. = Therefore we are=20 without much guidance from the godfather of it all - other than the = Mizuno=20 findings. Perhaps Mills has never even considered these implications. =
 
However... as soon as Mizuno is independently replicated, = WATCH OUT,=20 as the implications - especially for LENR, may blow the socks off = of the=20 physics-mainstream. [side note] Wouldn't it be curious (more like=20 poetic-tragic), if Mizuno ends up stealing most of the Mills' thunder = with such=20 a simple experiment, and given he may not have ever even heard of Mills = and=20 certainly does not credit the redundant ground state idea in any of his = own=20 conclusions.
 
Given the Mills' assertion (or is it only Robin's), that a = hydrino=20 which is further "pumped" up past a certain redundancy, will continue to = shrink,=20 auto-catalytically, to become an energy-poor quasi-neutron... then... = anytime=20 neutrons are observed anomalously, we must consider this *primordial* = and=20 natural source of either Hy or Dy, first, as a possible explanation = for the=20 anomaly.

With deuterium (deuterino), the pathway to a = neutron-anomaly=20 takes less of a leap of faith than with a hydrino, as a "shrunken" = deuterino=20 would have as its only distinguishing characteristic - the electron = orbital=20 being much closer to the nucleus. That negative charge, as felt by the = proton,=20 would be intensified. This is a power law situation. The deuteron = nucleus is=20 always highly elongated anyway, often called a  "barbell" shape, = and once=20 the proton-side of a deuterino is "pulled"  further than normal = away from=20 the neutron by the negative charge (of the closer electron) i.e. it = becomes=20 detached further away from its neutron than what normally happens in a=20 ground-state deuteron, then the "strong force" drops off to zero *very = quickly*=20 and the nucleus becomes unbound.

Perhaps this is an ongoing and = cyclical=20 process which happens frequently, but most of the time the two particles = reunite=20 in situ. The strong force is very powerful, but also very localized, and = drops=20 to zero quickly - yet it is the only force keeping the two entities = bound -=20 Except - the neutron may have a slightly negative near field which helps = also to=20 reunite the two - and maybe that is why this free-neutron doesn't happen = more=20 frequently.

The fringe science archives are replete with = anecdotal=20 evidence of neutron anomalies - often called neutron "stripping" or the=20 Oppenhiemer-Phillips effect (O-P effect).

What are other = implications of=20 primordial hydrinos ? 
 
"Provocateur" of the day...potential = "breakthrough"=20 of the new millennium,  or is all of this neutron anomaly = speculation no=20 more than a quaint variation on "la loi d' emmerdement=20 maximum"...

Jones
------=_NextPart_000_005D_01C5CD78.3312B200-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 10 09:23:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9AGMFqP015910; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 09:22:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9AGMBV5015852; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 09:22:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 09:22:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <4enjkv$pc9ljv mxip14a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.97,195,1125892800"; d="scan'208"; a="851760767:sNHT17565530" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: OrionWorks Organization: OrionWorks To: CC: Subject: Re: Primordial Hy ? - "Where's the Mass!" Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 11:21:40 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63708 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Speaking of the alleged accumulation of hydrinos on our planet. If they really do exist and if they have been bombarding our planet since the primordial beginning many billions of years ago I can't help but speculate on what kind of additional Earthly mass they might contributing to the overall composition of our planet. And if so is it possible to set up an experiment that might be sensitive enough to detect gravitational anomalies in the mass of the planet caused by an over accumulation of hydrino elements. Is it possible to gather evidence that could detect additional mass in certain areas of the planet that can't be accounted for when one takes into consideration the combination of known elements that are believed to exist in those geographic locations. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 10 09:27:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9AGQFRx020163; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 09:26:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9AGQBDU020123; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 09:26:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 09:26:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: SES Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 11:25:48 -0500 Message-ID: <000001c5cdb7$467996d0$5c5e10ac eDentsply.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: <20051007010527.7EE563DDF xprdmailfe6.nwk.excite.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j9AGPnAF019919 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63710 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: If the heat source end is truly a non-issue, attention should shift to developing a cost effective Stirling configuration. Been stomping around the sunpower site for the last several days looking at their linear generation approach. It's a very appealing concept in that the power transfer losses are pretty much eliminated for electrical generation... But yet there is no commercialization after many years of research and refinement. It must be like the bladeless turbine... More intoxicating in theory than in practice. You are right in avoiding government and large corporation applications. When managed by committee, only the most inane business plans make it through the vetting process. It's a land where fiscal sense and logic have no place or value. An area you may want to explore is solar water heating. An inexpensive enhancement of the collection grid by fresnal concentration would have significant impact on system performance and installation scale. One of many sites: http://www.thermotechs.com/tec_index.htm If memory serves... Heat pipe technology is another area of experience of our esteemed Mr. Sparber. 8^) -john -----Original Message----- From: Michael Foster [mailto:michael.foster excite.com] Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2005 8:05 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: SES Thanks for the ref, Alex. Check this out: > DAYTIME ONLY > Why hasn't Stirling Energy's technology made more > of a splash in the power business? "Our dilemma > has always been how to get costs down," explains > Osborn. The dish assemblies now run $250,000 > each. But that's because most have been > handcrafted in sporadic lots of one or two > units.Building a group of 40 or so would trim the cost > to $150,000 each, Osborn estimates. With real mass > production, that could drop by 50%. Using my proposed fresnel system, they could probably reduce costs by more like 90%. However, I've been through stuff like that for literally decades. People working with large corporations and government agencies actually don't want to hear it when you can reduce their costs dramatically. This goes double it you can actually demostrate it before their very eyes. I suppose I'll make a half-hearted attempt to convince these folks, but I know what my chances are. Been there at least twenty times, got the t-shirts, don' wanna go back. M. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 10 09:27:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9AGQL5d020254; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 09:26:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9AGQIac020212; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 09:26:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 09:26:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: spy chip vapper Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 11:25:48 -0500 Message-ID: <000501c5cdb7$473f09b0$5c5e10ac eDentsply.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j9AGPo9o019927 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63709 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Not to promote insurgent behavior, but a well placed frequency 'bomb' could easily sanitize an entire section of Wal-Mart at one time. Essentially that's all that happens at the register when they swipe your purchase over the electromagnet... These devices are very sensitive to overload. I would be very surprised if clothing tags survive a single washer/drier cycle. Now.... A whole bunch of fun is getting some live tags and planting them on a friend/sibling so that they trip the inventory alarm when they try and leave Home Depot. 8^) The enjoyment is limited though because employee apathy produces a lackluster or non-existent response to the alarm. That is probably the saving grace of technology invasions like this. No matter how smart and well thought out the inventory tracking system, it still relies heavily on the human element to follow through on it. And to be frank... The kids today are so disconnected/insulated from cause and effect relationships that they really don't care if the store is getting ripped off or not. That said, my privacy is guaranteed from everyone but the most interested in violating it. Any of those motivated few don't need an electronic tag to get or do what they want. -john -----Original Message----- From: thomas malloy [mailto:temalloy metro.lakes.com] Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2005 8:23 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: spy chip vapper Vortexians; I've heard several people interviewed on C to C AM about this matter. The answer isn't to protest, see http://www.spychips.com/ , IMHO, there should be a way to expose these things to the right frequency pulse and fry them. There should be a good market for these zappers among the Black Helicopter crowd. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 10 10:09:02 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9AH8APE017856; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 10:08:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9AH899M017834; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 10:08:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 10:08:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <009401c5cdbd$20bae740$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: Cc: References: <4enjkv$pc9ljv mxip14a.cluster1.charter.net> Subject: Re: Primordial Hy ? - "Where's the Mass!" Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 10:07:42 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0091_01C5CD82.73F0CA50" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <3jnxXC.A.cWE.4_pSDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63711 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0091_01C5CD82.73F0CA50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Steven comments, =20 > If they really do exist and if they have been bombarding our planet = since the primordial beginning many billions of years ago I can't help = but speculate on what kind of additional Earthly mass they might = contributing to the overall composition of our planet. I don't think the total mass would need to be that high. All the = experiments could be attributed to PPM of hydrinos or far less. The = solar wind streams off of the Sun in all directions at speeds of about = 400 km/s (about 1 million miles per hour). It consists mostly of = high-energy electrons and protons that are able to escape the Sun's = gravity. If hydrinos were in there, they would need to be in the most = stable range of hydrino hydrides. =20 The exact composition of the solar wind has always been *assumed* to be = identical to what is suspected in the Sun's corona, 73% ionized hydrogen = and 25% ionized helium with the remainder as trace impurities; these = components are present as a plasma, consisting of about 95% singly = ionized hydrogen, 4% doubly ionized helium, and less than 0.5% other = ions (often called minor ions). The exact composition has NOT yet been = measured anywhere, even in our own upper atmosphere. BTW none of the = "assumers" have ever heard of the hydrino. A real sample of solar wind - unfortuantely the only one I know of, was = lost on a return mission, "Genesis," which returned to Earth in 2004 and = is now undergoing analysis of what is left, but it was damaged by = crash-landing when its parachute failed to deploy on re-entry to Earth's = atmosphere... one of the most brain-dead of all the recent brain-dead = ideas NASA has been plagued with since the glory years. Undoubtedly the = solar-wind samples have been contaminated and if hydrinow were found you = would NEVER hear about it from them, probably.... although some in NASA = apparently like Mills ideas. The source of the solar wind is the Sun's hot corona. The temperature of = the corona is so high that the Sun's gravity cannot hold on to the = energetic particles there and hydrinos would be energetic enough to = easily escape intact. Hydrinos would form outside the hottest part = (visible in blaklight, of course) and most would probably be either = ionized or pumped back up - initially after forming or in transit. BTW = hydrino formation would be largely responible for the UV on earth and = skin cancer, genetic mutation and so on - IOW human evolution may depend = on the hydrino ! Bet Mills hasn't taken credit for that one yet. Jones ------=_NextPart_000_0091_01C5CD82.73F0CA50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Steven comments,
 
> If = they really=20 do exist and if they have been bombarding our planet since the = primordial=20 beginning  many billions of years ago I can't help but speculate on = what=20 kind of additional Earthly mass they might contributing to the overall=20 composition of our planet.


I don't think the total mass would = need to=20 be that high. All the experiments could be attributed to PPM of hydrinos = or far=20 less. The solar wind streams off of the Sun in all directions at speeds = of about=20 400 km/s (about 1 million miles per hour).  It consists mostly of=20 high-energy electrons and protons that are able to escape the Sun's = gravity. If=20 hydrinos were in there, they would need to be in the most stable range = of=20 hydrino hydrides. 
 
The exact composition of the solar wind = has always=20 been *assumed* to be identical to what is suspected in the Sun's corona, = 73%=20 ionized hydrogen and 25% ionized helium with the remainder as trace = impurities;=20 these components are present as a plasma, consisting of about 95% singly = ionized=20 hydrogen, 4% doubly ionized helium, and less than 0.5% other ions (often = called=20 minor ions). The exact composition has NOT yet been measured anywhere, = even in=20 our own upper atmosphere. BTW none of the "assumers" have ever heard of = the=20 hydrino.

A real sample of solar wind - unfortuantely the only one = I know=20 of,  was lost on a return mission, "Genesis," which returned to = Earth in=20 2004 and is now undergoing analysis of what is left, but it was damaged = by=20 crash-landing when its parachute failed to deploy on re-entry to Earth's = atmosphere... one of the most brain-dead of all the recent brain-dead = ideas NASA=20 has been plagued with since the glory years. Undoubtedly the solar-wind = samples=20 have been contaminated and if hydrinow were found you would NEVER hear = about it=20 from them, probably.... although some in NASA apparently like Mills=20 ideas.

The source of the solar wind is the Sun's hot corona. The=20 temperature of the corona is so high that the Sun's gravity cannot hold = on to=20 the energetic particles there and hydrinos would be energetic enough to = easily=20 escape intact. Hydrinos would form outside the hottest part (visible in=20 blaklight, of course) and most would probably be either ionized or = pumped back=20 up - initially after forming or in transit. BTW hydrino = formation would be=20 largely responible for the UV on earth and skin cancer, genetic mutation = and so=20 on - IOW human evolution may depend on the hydrino ! Bet Mills hasn't = taken=20 credit for that one yet.
 
Jones
------=_NextPart_000_0091_01C5CD82.73F0CA50-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 10 11:13:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9AID8tw001368; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 11:13:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9AID6It001316; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 11:13:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 11:13:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=dVapNDD5XPBZhz3QciGo8YlY0Vv+sQ8TjmkYegi5WoMnMZdNxRJiUA/NFUA7zCV7; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200510110171134640 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: SES Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 12:11:34 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9400c6acd6a713a493ccbdbb04dd75640f5350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.86 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63712 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Steck wrote: > > If the heat source end is truly a non-issue, attention should shift to > developing a cost effective Stirling configuration. > Based on the history of the Stirling engine being beat out by the versatility of vapor cycle engines (working fluid input, heat storage, and heat rejection) I doubt it will find large scale use. A low cost steam engine (with heat storage) can still compete with Photovoltaic for residential use. > > Been stomping around > the sunpower site for the last several days looking at their linear > generation approach. It's a very appealing concept in that the power > transfer losses are pretty much eliminated for electrical generation... But > yet there is no commercialization after many years of research and refinement. > Too bad. I've been following their efforts for years. > > It must be like the bladeless turbine... More intoxicating in > theory than in practice. > You gotta go with what works. > > You are right in avoiding government and large corporation applications. > When managed by committee, only the most inane business plans make it > through the vetting process. It's a land where fiscal sense and logic have > no place or value. > I worked with the late Bob Stromberg at Sandia before he pushed for the "Solar Tower" . I'm sure he looked at the Stirling cycle before choosing the molten salt-steam power generation. > > An area you may want to explore is solar water heating. An inexpensive > enhancement of the collection grid by Fresnel concentration would have > significant impact on system performance and installation scale. One of > many sites: http://www.thermotechs.com/tec_index.htm > Why go to a large area focusing collector when you can capture and store ~ 1.0 KW/meter^2 in an inexpensive covered pond? > > If memory serves... Heat pipe technology is another area of experience of > our esteemed Mr. Sparber. 8^) > Heat pipes are only a capsule version of ye olde steam radiator heating systems, John. Besides when you want to get past the ~ 360 C boiling point of Mercury (a red heat) you have to go to the dangerous and hard to handle liquid Potassium, Sodium, Lithium and Calcium metals. The space application RTGs, Lunar, Pioneer, Voyager and others use Potassium heat pipes. Frederick > > -john > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Foster [mailto:michael.foster excite.com] > Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2005 8:05 PM > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Subject: SES > > > > Thanks for the ref, Alex. > > Check this out: > > > DAYTIME ONLY > > Why hasn't Stirling Energy's technology made more > > of a splash in the power business? "Our dilemma > > has always been how to get costs down," explains > > Osborn. The dish assemblies now run $250,000 > > each. But that's because most have been > > handcrafted in sporadic lots of one or two > > units.Building a group of 40 or so would trim the cost > > to $150,000 each, Osborn estimates. With real mass > > production, that could drop by 50%. > > Using my proposed fresnel system, they could probably > reduce costs by more like 90%. However, I've been through stuff like that > for literally decades. People working with large corporations and government > agencies actually don't want to hear it when you can reduce their costs > dramatically. This goes double it you can actually demostrate it before > their very eyes. > > I suppose I'll make a half-hearted attempt to convince > these folks, but I know what my chances are. Been there > at least twenty times, got the t-shirts, don' wanna go > back. > > M. > > > _______________________________________________ > Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com > The most personalized portal on the Web! > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 10 11:20:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9AIJQcv004597; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 11:19:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9AIJPNe004586; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 11:19:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 11:19:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00df01c5cdc7$1829b660$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <4enjkv$pc9ljv mxip14a.cluster1.charter.net> <009401c5cdbd$20bae740$6401a8c0@NuDell> Subject: Re: Primordial Hy ? - Solar Wind Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 11:19:03 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00DC_01C5CD8C.6B669E50" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63713 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00DC_01C5CD8C.6B669E50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Here are some pictures of the sun in "hydrino light" or EUV: http://sohowww.nascom.nasa.gov/whatsnew/WIND/SOLWIND.HTML In the late 1990s the UV instrument on board SOHO observed the solar = wind emanating from the poles of the Sun, and found that the wind = accelerates much faster than can be accounted for by normal physics = (thermodynamic expansion) alone.=20 The normal physics model hade predicted that the wind should make the = transition to supersonic flow at an altitude of about 4 solar radii from = the photosphere; but the transition (or "sonic point") now appears to be = much lower, perhaps only 1 solar radius above the photosphere, = suggesting that some additional mechanism accelerates the solar wind = away from the Sun.=20 Now... ust what would that "additional" mechanism be ? ------=_NextPart_000_00DC_01C5CD8C.6B669E50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Here are some pictures of the sun in = "hydrino=20 light" or EUV:
http:/= /sohowww.nascom.nasa.gov/whatsnew/WIND/SOLWIND.HTML


In the late 1990s the UV instrument on board SOHO observed = the=20 solar wind emanating from the poles of the Sun, and found that the wind=20 accelerates much faster than can be accounted for by normal physics=20 (thermodynamic expansion) alone.
 
The normal physics model hade predicted that the wind should make = the=20 transition to supersonic flow at an altitude of about 4 solar radii from = the=20 photosphere; but the transition (or "sonic point") now appears to be = much lower,=20 perhaps only 1 solar radius above the photosphere, suggesting that some=20 additional mechanism accelerates the solar wind away from the Sun. =
 
Now... ust what would that "additional" = mechanism=20 be ?
------=_NextPart_000_00DC_01C5CD8C.6B669E50-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 10 11:58:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9AIvYqV031377; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 11:57:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9AIvXfM031354; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 11:57:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 11:57:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=PTLPqaoCWzzFqInTVcr7ObxSwJ7JtUXGKufOwiL6lEldBnJKQ6ZJMUT6wpxrQI+6; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22005101101756380 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: RE: SES Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 12:56:03 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940ad2be8a5ede18ba4265b8b5accc8d448350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.242 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63715 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A very extensive 32 page pdf catalog by Gast Manufacturing on their air motors. Benton Harbor, MI is across the lake from you, John. http://www.gastmfg.com/pdf/airmotor/airmotor_catalog.pdf Sizing for steam possible? Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 10 12:00:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9AJ0697000602; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 12:00:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9AIbmpX019546; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 11:37:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 11:37:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <4enjkv$pcm4t5 mxip14a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.97,195,1125892800"; d="scan'208"; a="852169637:sNHT15074064" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: OrionWorks Organization: OrionWorks To: CC: Subject: Re: Primordial Hy ? - Solar Wind Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 13:37:21 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63714 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Jones Beene > Here are some pictures of the sun in "hydrino light" or EUV: > http://sohowww.nascom.nasa.gov/whatsnew/WIND/SOLWIND.HTML > In the late 1990s the UV instrument on board SOHO observed the solar > wind emanating from the poles of the Sun, and found that the wind > accelerates much faster than can be accounted for by normal physics > (thermodynamic expansion) alone. > The normal physics model hade predicted that the wind should make > the transition to supersonic flow at an altitude of about 4 solar > radii from the photosphere; but the transition (or "sonic point") > now appears to be much lower, perhaps only 1 solar radius above the > photosphere, suggesting that some additional mechanism accelerates > the solar wind away from the Sun. > > Now... [j]ust what would that "additional" mechanism be ? And, of course, we understand that according Mills hydrino model it is theorized that the corona's inexpertly high temperature is largely due to hydrino formation - all that atomized H and He banging around within a rarified atmosphere. Would the higher than expected temperature, regardless of whether it's due to hydrino formation, by itself constitute a sufficient mechanism for achieving supersonic flow within a single solar radius? Or is that the point. The measured heat by itself ISN'T sufficient explanation? PS: Speaking of those spectacular SOHO images, there is something very eerie about looking at a green sun. I think I've been watching too many Smallville episodes. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 10 12:24:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9AJNQ36012819; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 12:23:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9AJNNEP012781; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 12:23:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 12:23:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] X-Originating-Email: [caliostro1795 hotmail.com] X-Sender: caliostro1795 hotmail.com In-Reply-To: <00df01c5cdc7$1829b660$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Alex Caliostro" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Primordial Hy ? - Solar Wind Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 13:22:53 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Oct 2005 19:22:53.0333 (UTC) FILETIME=[02C5B450:01C5CDD0] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63716 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >From: "Jones Beene" >In the late 1990s the UV instrument on board SOHO observed the solar wind >emanating from the poles of the Sun, and found that the wind accelerates >much faster than can be accounted for by normal physics (thermodynamic >expansion) alone. in addition to adiabatic expansion the magnetic field lines affect the solar wind -- as you near the poles the field lines are open -- the field lines are closed as you approach the ecliptic -- the ecliptic solar wind oft times is not supersonic and quite variable _____ -alex _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 10 13:00:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9AK09FH004119; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 13:00:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9AJfGtC023742; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 12:41:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 12:41:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001201c5cdd2$21eddc70$a0037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051010113012.04feaeb0 pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Cavitation paper from Farzan Amini Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 14:38:03 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.2 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, J_CHICKENPOX_37,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63717 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed, Shades of the old S.Morgan Smith Company of York, Pa. The technology came from the Czechs, passed to Peltin Water Wheel Company. Smith had the technology and passed it on the Allis-Chalmers, The Japanese built upon it. Amini doesn't give the details but I can almost guess what happened and why. Brings back days of yesteryear. Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" To: Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 10:38 AM Subject: Cavitation paper from Farzan Amini > Getting back to the original ORIGINAL purpose of this discussion group . . > . An engineer named Farzan Amini (f.amini farab.com) sent me a short paper > on cavitation effects at a hydroelectric dam where he works, in Iraq. The > English in this paper needs some editing, and I think the paper needs > another page or so of text to explain what the author has in mind, but it > looks promising. I may upload it after some more work has been done on it, > but for now, anyone interested in this subject should contact me for a > copy. > > Attached is the title and abstract. > > - Jed > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > > Production Method for Violent TCB Jet Plasma from Cavity > > Farzan Amini > Nuclear Engineer(MSc.) .Mechanical Engineer(BSc.) > farzanamini yahoo.com > > 1. Introduction > > One of the hydropower plants in our country has 4 Francis turbines so that > two units on the right way(looking downstream) share a common penstock and > a common long tailrace tunnel and other two units on the left also share > a penstock and tailrace tunnel. Upon commissioning of one unit, the > hydraulic transient in the draft tube during load rejection above 75% was > excessive. It was apparent that the guide vane closing law that had been > adopted would result in water column separation during load rejection at > full power. Tests with a slower closing rate showed that the risk of > column separation was reduced, but a violent surge developed in the draft > tube close to maximum over speed. The measurement equipment in this > experiment have a sampling time of 0.01 sec. > > The energy level and cavity volume that are produced are much more than > those of > regular TCB(Transients Cavitation Bubbles) experiments, and > therefore, we should expect more effects than the TCB jet. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 10 14:03:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9AL2nfw003948; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 14:03:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9AL2l9O003916; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 14:02:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 14:02:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=DfYR2MP0dmYEW3d+Ss1iSVyz3voopJh1QoU3feOHnf4svixIiK55Dm6yCPpODCK/; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220051011020115240 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: FEMA Petroleum Emergency Gasifier Report Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 15:01:15 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940d03d94c113c48dcff4ffbb78302dcc4e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.77 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63718 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII 90 Page pdf These could be made run on coal also. http://www.webpal.org/webpal/b_recovery/3_alternate_energy/woodgas/fema_wood_gas_generator.pdf Small-scale Wood Gasifiers Recently, much emphasis has been placed on using biomass for energy, in part as a method of utilizing the biomass generated in forest thinning operations. The use of biomass for energy is not a new concept. During World War II some European countries relied heavily on wood gas, also known as producer gas, as a substitute for petroleum, which was in short supply due to the war. In the FEMA Report, Construction of a Simplified Wood Gas Generator for Fueling Internal Combustion Engines in a Petroleum Emergency, it is stated that 95% of all mobile farm equipment, stationary engines, and fishing and ferry boats in Denmark were powered by wood-gas, during the war. Projects currently being proposed are much larger in scale than those used during the war. Likewise, technological advancements have such systems more efficient. However, the cost for such systems are prohibitive for small-scale users. The following sites provide background, and plans, for small-scale wood gasifiers for use in fueling internal combustion engines. In most cases, these gasifiers can be constructed by anyone with a basic mechanical aptitude, using cheap, or salvaged materials. Such systems are somewhat inefficient, but are capable of powering fairly sizeable engines. Construction of a Simplified Wood Gas Generator for Fueling Internal Combustion Engines in a Petroleum Emergency: FEMA Report How-to report on building a wood-gasifier HTML version - Easier to load, harder to print PDF version - longer to load, easier to print Fluidyne NZ - plans for home-built gasifier Bio-Mass to Bio-Gas: Description and pictures of homebuilt gasifier Wood Gas as an Engine Fuel - FAO Report with cases studies of wood-powered engines around the world Producer Gas for Motor Vehicles- Order form for reprints of book published in 1943 Kalle-gasifier: Swedish charcoal gasifier Yugo converted to run on wood-gas Bio-Energy Foundation Press (BEF): List of articles and books on wood gasification available from BEF ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

90 Page pdf
 
These could be made run on coal also.
 
 
 
 
 
 

Small-scale Wood Gasifiers

Recently, much emphasis has been placed on using biomass for energy, in part as a method of utilizing the biomass generated in forest thinning operations. The use of biomass for energy is not a new concept. During World War II some European countries relied heavily on wood gas, also known as producer gas, as a substitute for petroleum, which was in short supply due to the war. In the FEMA Report, Construction of a Simplified Wood Gas Generator for Fueling Internal Combustion Engines in a Petroleum Emergency, it is stated that 95% of all mobile farm equipment, stationary engines, and fishing and ferry boats in Denmark were powered by wood-gas, during the war.
Projects currently being proposed are much larger in scale than those used during the war. Likewise, technological advancements have such systems more efficient. However, the cost for such systems are prohibitive for small-scale users.
The following sites provide background, and plans, for small-scale wood gasifiers for use in fueling internal combustion engines. In most cases, these gasifiers can be constructed by anyone with a basic mechanical aptitude, using cheap, or salvaged materials. Such systems are somewhat inefficient, but are capable of powering fairly sizeable engines.


Construction of a Simplified Wood Gas Generator for Fueling Internal Combustion Engines in a Petroleum Emergency: FEMA Report
How-to report on building a wood-gasifier
HTML version - Easier to load, harder to print
PDF version - longer to load, easier to print

Fluidyne NZ - plans for home-built gasifier
Bio-Mass to Bio-Gas: Description and pictures of homebuilt gasifier

Wood Gas as an Engine Fuel - FAO Report with cases studies of wood-powered engines around the world

Producer Gas for Motor Vehicles- Order form for reprints of book published in 1943

Kalle-gasifier: Swedish charcoal gasifier
Yugo converted to run on wood-gas
Bio-Energy Foundation Press (BEF): List of articles and books on wood gasification available from BEF
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 10 14:06:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9AL6I63005810; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 14:06:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9AL6GgC005787; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 14:06:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 14:06:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <010701c5cdde$6653aa00$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051010113012.04feaeb0 pop.mindspring.com> <001201c5cdd2$21eddc70$a0037841@xptower> Subject: Re: Cavitation paper from Farzan Amini Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 14:05:52 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63719 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Maybe we have inadvertently found where all the WMD are hidden? ----- Original Message ----- From: "RC Macaulay" To: Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 12:38 PM Subject: Re: Cavitation paper from Farzan Amini > Jed, > Shades of the old S.Morgan Smith Company of York, Pa. The > technology came from the Czechs, passed to Peltin Water Wheel > Company. Smith had the technology and passed it on the > Allis-Chalmers, The Japanese built upon it. > Amini doesn't give the details but I can almost guess what > happened and why. Brings back days of yesteryear. > Richard > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jed Rothwell" > To: > Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 10:38 AM > Subject: Cavitation paper from Farzan Amini > > >> Getting back to the original ORIGINAL purpose of this >> discussion group . . . An engineer named Farzan Amini >> (f.amini farab.com) sent me a short paper on cavitation effects >> at a hydroelectric dam where he works, in Iraq. The English in >> this paper needs some editing, and I think the paper needs >> another page or so of text to explain what the author has in >> mind, but it looks promising. I may upload it after some more >> work has been done on it, but for now, anyone interested in >> this subject should contact me for a copy. >> >> Attached is the title and abstract. >> >> - Jed >> >> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >> >> Production Method for Violent TCB Jet Plasma from Cavity >> >> Farzan Amini >> Nuclear Engineer(MSc.) .Mechanical Engineer(BSc.) >> farzanamini yahoo.com >> >> 1. Introduction >> >> One of the hydropower plants in our country has 4 Francis >> turbines so that two units on the right way(looking downstream) >> share a common penstock and a common long tailrace tunnel and >> other two units on the left also share a penstock and tailrace >> tunnel. Upon commissioning of one unit, the hydraulic transient >> in the draft tube during load rejection above 75% was >> excessive. It was apparent that the guide vane closing law that >> had been adopted would result in water column separation during >> load rejection at full power. Tests with a slower closing rate >> showed that the risk of column separation was reduced, but a >> violent surge developed in the draft tube close to maximum over >> speed. The measurement equipment in this experiment have a >> sampling time of 0.01 sec. >> >> The energy level and cavity volume that are produced are much >> more than those of >> regular TCB(Transients Cavitation Bubbles) experiments, >> and therefore, we should expect more effects than the TCB jet. >> >> > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 10 18:45:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9B1ikn4011525; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 18:45:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9B1iiQ0011495; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 18:44:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 18:44:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002d01c5ce05$4b678140$a0037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Cc: Subject: Cavitation problems/ draft tubes Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 20:44:17 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002A_01C5CDDB.62095D80" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.8 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,HTML_60_70, HTML_MESSAGE,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63720 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C5CDDB.62095D80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I read your post on VortexL groups regarding your experience with draft = tubes. May I suggest one of the best references is a very old book by George E.Russell Professor of Hydraulics, MIT (5th edition reprinted = in October 1941) =20 The publisher was Henry Holt and company of New York The book covers the subject and was my reference for many years Richard ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C5CDDB.62095D80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I read your post on VortexL groups = regarding your=20 experience with draft tubes.
 
May I suggest one of the best = references is a=20 very old  book by
 
George = E.Russell   Professor of=20 Hydraulics, MIT  (5th edition reprinted in October 1941)  =
The publisher was Henry Holt and = company of New=20 York
 
The book covers the subject and was = my reference=20 for many years
 
Richard
------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C5CDDB.62095D80-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 10 20:04:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9B34Jw2007696; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 20:04:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9B34Dxu007658; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 20:04:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 20:04:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Primordial Hy ? Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 13:03:51 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <006001c5cdb2$dfd81400$6401a8c0 NuDell> In-Reply-To: <006001c5cdb2$dfd81400$6401a8c0 NuDell> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta01ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.77.227] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Tue, 11 Oct 2005 03:03:50 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j9B33tVK007536 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63721 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Mon, 10 Oct 2005 08:54:18 -0700: Hi, [snip] >Although the tonnage of these hydrinos reaching earth in the "solar wind" is not great in any given year - this process has been ongoing for 5 billion years. Ergo, there could be now a substantial population of hydrinos in seawater, if they are as stable as Mills suggests, and some of these would eventually turn up in hydrogen (especially deuterium) gas, used in experiments. The chemical activity of hydrinos is very different to that of hydrogen, hence one can't simply "plug in" a hydrino where hydrogen would normally be found. Depending on the level of shrinkage, hydrinohydride/hydrino can be as metallic as potassium, or a far stronger non-metal than fluorine. In short there are probably many different compounds of hydrogen oxygen and hydrinos, all with different physical and chemical properties, depending on the level of shrinkage. They could vary from gaseous to solid at room temperature. > >What are the further implications, and why would these not have been noticed (before 1989 ;-) ? This is an excellent question. My guess would be that they don't survive very long because frequently when a hydrino comes in contact with a catalyst it shrinks one or more levels. Eventually they are so small that they undergo fusion reactions and are removed from the environment. Hence they may have a lifetime of anything from seconds to a few years (I'm obviously guessing here). But at any rate, I doubt that they accumulate in the environment for billions of years. > >The first one I would like to throw out involves H-O-Hy, or hydrino-water, as it matriculates in the vast oceans of earth, and in the presence of cosmic radiation over geologic time. > >We know that ground state hydrogen has a remarkably high thermal neutron capture characteristic, and it is conceivable that Hy would be even greater. Actually, the thermal neutron radiative capture cross section for Hydrogen is only 332 mb according to http://atom.kaeri.re.kr/ton/nuc1.html . I Don't see why Hy should be that different to H, considering that the neutron is uncharged, hence both hydrino and hydrogen just look like a proton to the neutron. > Consequently over geologic time most Hy arriving in the solar wind might now have been already converted to the deuterino or heavy-hydrino (Dy) anyway, due to constant exposure to the background neutron flux caused by cosmic radiation, uranium dissolved in seawater and weather (neutrons cause by lightning). I would expect about the same proportion of hydrinos to have undergone neutron capture, as the proportion of hydrogen. As near as I can tell no one even considers that some deuterium has been formed through neutron capture, most simply assuming that the current hydrogen/deuterium ratio is the same as it was when the planet formed. (Though this obviously can't be true - some must have formed, and some must have been destroyed). > >Mills has never adequately addressed the possibility of H-O-Hy or hydrino-water, and certainly not H-O-Dy or heavy-hydrino-water. Therefore we are without much guidance from the godfather of it all - other than the Mizuno findings. Perhaps Mills has never even considered these implications. See above. The chances that "hydrino water" would be essentially indistinguishable from normal water (or even liquid) are slim. > >However... as soon as Mizuno is independently replicated, WATCH OUT, as the implications - especially for LENR, may blow the socks off of the physics-mainstream. [side note] Wouldn't it be curious (more like poetic-tragic), if Mizuno ends up stealing most of the Mills' thunder with such a simple experiment, and given he may not have ever even heard of Mills and certainly does not credit the redundant ground state idea in any of his own conclusions. > >Given the Mills' assertion (or is it only Robin's), that a hydrino which is > further "pumped" up past a certain redundancy, will continue to shrink, A single hydrino can't shrink auto-catalytically (or any way either). It must react with a catalyst to do so. According to Mills (and I don't disagree), other hydrinos may act as catalysts. IOW a bunch of them together can shrink some of them while others expand. >auto-catalytically, to become an energy-poor quasi-neutron... then... anytime neutrons are observed anomalously, we must consider this *primordial* and natural source of either Hy or Dy, first, as a possible explanation for the anomaly. Agreed. In a post some time last year (I think), I suggested that a severely shrunken dihydrino molecular ion might take the place of a deuterium nucleus. The difference would be that the bond between the two nucleons is purely chemical, rather than nuclear, and hence much easier to break, resulting in a proton and a severely shrunken hydrino, which might then function as a neutron in an ensuing nuclear reaction. The problem with this is of course that one is lead to wonder why the original "quasi" deuteron (i.e. the hydrino molecular ion) didn't simply convert to a real deuterium nucleus spontaneously. > >With deuterium (deuterino), the pathway to a neutron-anomaly takes less of a leap of faith than with a hydrino, as a "shrunken" deuterino would have as its only distinguishing characteristic - the electron orbital being much closer to the nucleus. Why would the electron in deuterino be "much" closer than in hydrino? The difference in distance would only be due to the difference in reduced electron mass, and this is a very small correction anyway. (i.e. the difference between 13.606 eV and 13.598 eV). IOW for a deuteron, the correction would be twice as large, and one would get 13.59 eV. [snip] >The fringe science archives are replete with anecdotal evidence of neutron anomalies - often called neutron "stripping" or the Oppenhiemer-Phillips effect (O-P effect). I suspect that this may be more readily explained by a dihydrino molecular ion masquerading as a deuterium nucleus. The capture problem I mentioned here above, might be resolved by taking into consideration that the actual capture process would be a beta-decay process, and the half life of such processes depends strongly on the amount of energy released thereby. As such, capture of a hydrino by a larger nucleus (where e.g. 5-10 MeV is released) could in theory have a much shorted half life than capture by a proton leading to the formation of deuterium where less than 1.44 MeV is released (because some was already lost during shrinkage). OTOH, I would expect proton capture to be far more likely than neutron capture, because the former requires no weak force interaction. Yet AFAIK, most Oppenhiemer-Phillips reactions are neutron capture reactions, which doesn't auger well for the hypothesis. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk In a town full of candlestick makers, everyone lives in the light, In a town full of thieves, there is only one candle, and everyone lives in the night. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 10 21:34:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9B4XuEt005350; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 21:34:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9B4Xtve005331; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 21:33:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 21:33:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <007801c5ce1c$f1bc9000$1714fea9 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <006001c5cdb2$dfd81400$6401a8c0 NuDell> Subject: Re: Primordial Hy ? Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 21:33:35 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63722 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin, Let me combine your objections to the previous hasty hypothetical scenario, into a revised version of how a solar-derived hydrino might get incorporated into a "metastable" deuteron via ocean water... this being the candidate for easy "stripping," of Mizuno and others. If the hydrino in question first either arrives as a hydride, a negative ion (or picks up an electron in our ionosphere to become a hydride) following which there is a good likelihood that it will hook up with water vapor and become a different type of hydronium ion. This would actually be a more-stable kind of hydronium, as the extra negative charge is less. When this hydrino-hydronium ion reaches the ocean, where there are potassium and other catalytic ions already partly ionized, it will then eventually be enticed to shrink to a state where... as you agreed, it become an energy-poor quasi-neutron... At which point it will very likely eventually drift into the strong force field of one of the (protons) of the hydrogen of water, becoming an energy poor deuteron. This is the population which I am trying to identify and which Mizuno has apparently discovered. > Actually, the thermal neutron radiative capture cross section > for > Hydrogen is only 332 mb according to > http://atom.kaeri.re.kr/ton/nuc1.html Notice I said "characteristic" and not cross-section. The stopping power of hydrogen for neutrons due to the almost identical mass is as important as its moderate cross section in the circumstance of cosmic neutrons (or hydrino hydrides) reaching earth - so that few neutrons reaching the surface (4/5 ths ocean) are abosrbed by anything other than hydrogen due to the combination of ubiquity, stopping power and cross-section (which is thousands of times higher than oxygen or nitrogen - the other ubquious choices. The same would be true for energy-poor neutrons which were once hydrinos. At any rate - the aim is to find a way that over geologic time, most of the solar Hy arriving in the solar wind (or ab initio) might have been already efficiently converted to the speices which Mizuno has found.... be it deuterino or the alternative, which would be a normal deuteron with an enegy-poor neturon. It appears more likely, after what you have said to be that later entity - a normal proton and orbital, but with an enegy-poor neturon which was once a solar hydrino. > I would expect about the same proportion of hydrinos to have > undergone neutron capture, as the proportion of hydrogen. As > near > as I can tell no one even considers that some deuterium has been > formed through neutron capture, most simply assuming that the > current hydrogen/deuterium ratio is the same as it was when the > planet formed. (Though this obviously can't be true - some must > have formed, and some must have been destroyed). The ratio is indeed very different here - comapred to the solar ratio, which is itself very different from the cosmological ratio. > The chances that "hydrino water" would be essentially > indistinguishable from normal water (or even liquid) are slim. Not if redfeined as above! Not if the species in question is a regular orbital deuteron formed from a proton capturing and enegy-poor neturon, which was once a solar hydrino. > I suspect that this may be more readily explained by a dihydrino > molecular ion masquerading as a deuterium nucleus. I think not, because of the initial rarity of hydrinos, and the resultant low probability of hydrinos hooking up with each other before they do something else. My choice for now is a regular-orbital deuteron formed from a proton and an enegy-poor neturon which was once a solar hydrino, which name is so cumbersome that it begs for a new one - but this is all so new that it boggles the mind. "Metastable deuterium" is as good a name as any for this species. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 11 03:55:42 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9BAtFbV003840; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 03:55:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9BAtD6N003813; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 03:55:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 03:55:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Primordial Hy ? Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 20:54:47 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <006001c5cdb2$dfd81400$6401a8c0 NuDell> <007801c5ce1c$f1bc9000$1714fea9@NuDell> In-Reply-To: <007801c5ce1c$f1bc9000$1714fea9 NuDell> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.77.227] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Tue, 11 Oct 2005 10:54:47 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j9BAss7n003644 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63723 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Mon, 10 Oct 2005 21:33:35 -0700: Hi Jones, [snip] >When this hydrino-hydronium ion reaches the ocean, where there are >potassium and other catalytic ions already partly ionized, it will >then eventually be enticed to shrink to a state where... as you >agreed, it become an energy-poor quasi-neutron... Unfortunately, I think that "quasi neutrons" would survive not much longer than free ordinary neutrons. Both are rapidly thermalized, and would likely soon be absorbed into another nucleus. How long do free neutrons survive in a fission reactor once the process is shut down? Not longer than a few seconds (if that) I suspect. > >At which point it will very likely eventually drift into the >strong force field of one of the (protons) of the hydrogen of >water, becoming an energy poor deuteron. I don't think there is any such thing as an energy poor deuteron. When the weak force reaction takes place, energy is released. If there is initially less energy available, as in the case of quasi neutrons, then it just means that the final energy release is less by the difference between the energy of the quasi neutron and the energy of a real neutron. However the final product, the deuteron, always has the same mass. >This is the population >which I am trying to identify and which Mizuno has apparently >discovered. Mizuno may have discovered something like this, or he may have discovered a link between the electromagnetic and nuclear forces. (just to suggest a totally different alternative ;) > >> Actually, the thermal neutron radiative capture cross section >> for >> Hydrogen is only 332 mb according to >> http://atom.kaeri.re.kr/ton/nuc1.html > >Notice I said "characteristic" and not cross-section. The stopping Point taken. >power of hydrogen for neutrons due to the almost identical mass is >as important as its moderate cross section in the circumstance of >cosmic neutrons (or hydrino hydrides) reaching earth - so that few >neutrons reaching the surface (4/5 ths ocean) are abosrbed by >anything other than hydrogen due to the combination of ubiquity, >stopping power and cross-section (which is thousands of times >higher than oxygen or nitrogen - the other ubquious choices. The >same would be true for energy-poor neutrons which were once >hydrinos. I also don't think there is any such thing as an energy poor neutron, for the same reason as here above. Note that by neutron, I mean the product of a weak force reaction, i.e. a real neutron. Quasi neutrons (actually severely shrunken hydrinos) OTOH are by definition energy poor. Note also that the definition of "energy paucity" depends on the physical environment. I.e. a real neutron that is a free particle has more mass than a neutron in a nucleus, but neither are "energy poor", despite having different energies (masses). IOW being energy poor means having less mass than the equivalent particle in the same situation. A free quasi neutron is "energy poor" because it has less mass than a free neutron, even though the free quasi neutron has more mass than a bound neutron. > >At any rate - the aim is to find a way that over geologic time, >most of the solar Hy arriving in the solar wind (or ab initio) >might have been already efficiently converted to the speices which >Mizuno has found.... be it deuterino or the alternative, which >would be a normal deuteron with an enegy-poor neturon. It appears >more likely, after what you have said to be that later entity - a >normal proton and orbital, but with an enegy-poor neturon which >was once a solar hydrino. Deuterinos are far more likely to produce an Oppenheimer-Phillips reaction than ordinary deuterons, because the reduced Coulomb barrier in the case of deuterinos makes a close approach to the nucleus far easier. [snip] > >> I would expect about the same proportion of hydrinos to have >> undergone neutron capture, as the proportion of hydrogen. As >> near >> as I can tell no one even considers that some deuterium has been >> formed through neutron capture, most simply assuming that the >> current hydrogen/deuterium ratio is the same as it was when the >> planet formed. (Though this obviously can't be true - some must >> have formed, and some must have been destroyed). > >The ratio is indeed very different here - comapred to the solar >ratio, which is itself very different from the cosmological ratio. If the ratio of D/H is higher here than on the Sun, then it would seem to imply that Deuterons are forming on Earth. Is the ratio here higher or lower? If they are forming here, then hydrino capture may well be the mechanism. > > > The chances that "hydrino water" would be essentially >> indistinguishable from normal water (or even liquid) are slim. > >Not if redfeined as above! Not if the species in question is a >regular orbital deuteron formed from a proton capturing and >enegy-poor neturon, which was once a solar hydrino. Since I don't believe in energy poor neutrons, I will not look through your telescope! ;) Now that said, I do think there may be dihydrino molecular ions masquerading as deuterons, and yes, these may well take the place of hydrogen in ordinary water. A dihydrino molecular ion is a quasi neutron that has become chemically bound to a bare proton. I.e. two protons sharing a single severely shrunken electron. It looks just like a hydrogen molecular ion (i.e. a hydrogen molecule that is missing an electron), but much smaller. To the outside world, it looks much like a fat deuteron. It has a mass of about 2 amu, and a single positive charge. The difference between this critter and a real deuteron is that at the core or this thing there are actually two protons rather than a proton and a neutron. > >> I suspect that this may be more readily explained by a dihydrino >> molecular ion masquerading as a deuterium nucleus. > >I think not, because of the initial rarity of hydrinos, and the >resultant low probability of hydrinos hooking up with each other >before they do something else. This isn't necessary to produce them. They form easily when a hydrino combines with an ordinary proton (of which there are plenty). In fact this may be the fate of all hydrinos in an aqueous environment that shrink past level 24, after which they can no longer hold on to a second electron in the same shrunken orbit as the first electron, assuming they haven't fused by that time. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk In a town full of candlestick makers, everyone lives in the light, In a town full of thieves, there is only one candle, and everyone lives in the night. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 11 08:42:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9BFfb7r022654; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 08:41:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9BFfZJa022569; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 08:41:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 08:41:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051011113612.042b9a20 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 11:41:03 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Stunning progress in autonomous vehicles Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63724 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This year's DARPA "Grand Challenge" autonomous vehicle race was a triumph. Last year, no vehicles went more than a mile or so. This year, five vehicles finished the challenge course. See: http://www.grandchallenge.org/ I shall have to revise chapter 6 of my book. Society is faced with many emerging serious problems, such as an energy crisis and war. This has spurred technical progress in many fields, except cold fusion . . . sigh. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 11 11:38:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9BIcKZ7031554; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 11:38:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9BIcFNA031433; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 11:38:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 11:38:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051011141624.04633660 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 14:32:37 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: "The Long Emergency" (book) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <8FCJPB.A.2qH.UaATDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63725 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This book has been causing a buzz in the press lately: The Long Emergency: Surviving the Converging Catastrophes of the Twenty-First Century. James Howard Kunstler. x + 307 pp. Atlantic Monthly Press, 2005. $23. I have not read the book, but I have read several reviews, such as this one: http://www.americanscientist.org/template/BookReviewTypeDetail/assetid/45924;jsessionid=aaaaXjAFg_nw8t This book is a mirror image of my book. Kunstler and I look at the same data and draw 180 degree opposite conclusions. I believe that even without cold fusion there are dozens of ways to solve the energy crisis, and that the worst that can happen is that we will be spending $8 per gallon for gasoline for a couple of decades before some effective large-scale alternative wins the economic competition becomes widespread. Alternatives include such things as: solar hydrogen, fission electricity plus hydrogen, space elevator + space based solar, and so on. Kunstler appears to have no idea that energy can be converted from one form to another. For example, massive solar-electric plants or nuclear power plants could produce liquid fuels. He seems to assume that once we run out of oil they will be no other liquid fuel for automobiles, and apparently he is never heard of a plug-in hybrid. It appears he has no faith in free-market competition or ingenuity. Of course I am well aware of the fact that fossil fuels are a limited, expensive and rapidly dwindling resource; that the free market has failed drastically in the past (such as in 1929); and that the energy crisis is a very serious and expensive problem. But I would never give in to despair the way this author apparently has. The review cited above says that the author briefly discusses zero point energy. "Nor is he sanguine about such far-out schemes as a process for deriving zero-point energy from the dark matter of the universe; he reminds us that 'A useful maxim in engineering states that when something sounds too good to be true, it generally is not true.'" I would say that is not a very useful maxim with regard to scientific research. Over the past 400 years it has produced millions of goods and services which would have seemed far too good to be true to our ancestors. I used the Amazon.com search this book feature to find the following quote about cold fusion in the book: "... and France. Ever since the development of the hydrogen bomb, hopes have been harbored for the development of a commercial fusion process that could be used in electric power generation. In ... miracles promised for the post-petroleum future. A related process called "cold fusion" has been pursued in laboratories sedulously for decades, as methods for turning lead into gold were doggedly pursued by ..." This kind of book has been published many times in the past. The only bad thing about it is that it might discourage the public, and make people think there is no point to searching for, or investing in, new technology and basic research. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 11 11:43:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9BIgYrY002041; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 11:42:53 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9BIgWJk002025; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 11:42:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 11:42:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051011143726.04652eb0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 14:42:06 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: "The Long Emergency" (book) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j9BIgEZF001805 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63726 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: [I am not sure whether the first message in this series reached this discussion group, but anyway . . .] Here is an example of the idiotic analysis described in the American Scientist review: Second is the large amount of oil needed to mine and process nuclear fuel and to build and maintain nuclear plants. And the third, formidable objection Kunstler makes is that "Atomic fission is useful for producing electricity, but most of America's energy needs are for things that electricity can't do very well, if at all. For instance, you can't fly airplanes on electric power from nuclear reactors"­although, as he notes, the U.S. military has tried. Even if Kunstler does not understand how energy works, you would think that someone at the American Scientist would understand that nuclear fission can produce unlimited amounts of liquid chemical fuel, and that airplanes can fly more efficiently, more safely and at a greater range with hydrogen fuel than with conventional petroleum fuel. Of course it would cost a great deal of money to build ~200 more nuclear power plants and designed a new fleet of aircraft, but once we pay the up-front price and accomplish these tasks, air transportation will be cheaper than it is today. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 11 11:51:54 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9BIpNMG006322; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 11:51:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9BIpL66006290; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 11:51:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 11:51:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 13:50:54 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: chip zapping Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <3PLCw.A.OiB.omATDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63727 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Steck wrote; Not to promote insurgent behavior, but a well placed frequency 'bomb' could easily sanitize an entire section of Wal-Mart at one time. Essentially that's all that happens at the register when they swipe your purchase over the electromagnet... These devices are very sensitive to overload. I would be very surprised if clothing tags survive a single washer/drier cycle. I have no interest in monkey wrenching any corporation's store. As for nuking currency, that's got to be against the law. In any case, I'd sooner spend them. OTOH, the nuking experiment that Prison Planet did, has demonstrated that while these chips might be quite resilient, I'd be surprised if either the washer or dryer destroyed them, an EMF over load is quite another matter. If I wanted to get to the bottom of this, I'd need a reader and a source of microwaves, just enough power to fry the chip, not enough to set the material that it is embeded in on fire. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 11 12:12:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9BJC6jR018111; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 12:12:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9BJC5pC018097; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 12:12:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 12:12:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051011145718.0462a9c0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 15:11:24 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: chip zapping In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63728 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: >I have no interest in monkey wrenching any corporation's store. There has been some overblown hysteria in the press about RFID inventory control chips invading privacy. All we need is a simple law that says the chips must be completely disabled (reset or destroyed) when the customer leaves the store. This is easy to arrange. I expect the public will demand this, as it should. > As for nuking currency, that's got to be against the law. As far as I know you can destroy all the currency you want. You are actually doing the government a favor. On the other hand, the Treasury says: "Whoever mutilates, cuts, disfigures, perforates, unites or cements together, or does any other thing to any bank bill, draft, note, or other evidence of debt issued by any national banking association, Federal Reserve Bank, or Federal Reserve System, with intent to render such item(s) unfit to be reissued, shall be fined not more than $100 . . ." http://www.moneyfactory.com/document.cfm/18/104 It is perfectly legal to squish pennies into odd-shaped jewelry. Gift shops everywhere have machines to do that. The US mint says it is illegal to "fraudulently" alter coins: http://www.usmint.gov/consumer/18USC331.cfm?flash=yes - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 11 13:28:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9BKSP2t025547; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 13:28:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9BKSNMC025520; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 13:28:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 13:28:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <4enjo0$1hua64h mxip16a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.97,201,1125892800"; d="scan'208"; a="1675958417:sNHT14711092" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: OrionWorks Organization: OrionWorks To: CC: Subject: Re: "The Long Emergency" (book) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 15:27:57 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63729 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Jed Rothwell > > This book has been causing a buzz in the press lately: > > The Long Emergency: Surviving the Converging Catastrophes > of the Twenty-First Century. James Howard Kunstler. x + 307 pp. > Atlantic Monthly Press, 2005. $23. > > I have not read the book, but I have read several reviews, > such as this one: > > http://www.americanscientist.org/template/BookReviewTypeDetail/assetid/45924;jsessionid=aaaaXjAFg_nw8t ... Jed, It seems to me that Kunstler is simply being a realist. For example, as you point out, in the interview the following comment is made: Nor is he sanguine about such far-out schemes as a process for deriving zero-point energy from the dark matter of the universe; he reminds us that "A useful maxim in engineering states that when something sounds too good to be true, it generally is not true." There is honor in being a realist. OTOH, what Kunstler doesn't possess is an imagination. To allow himself to be "imaginative" would (I suspect) offend his need to remain in the place he feels most safe: That of a realist. There is much irony is this. IMHO, Kunstler's predictions are likely turn out to be reasonably accurate - except for the fact that there are others who don't feel all that safe maintaining the perception of a realist. They are willing to put more of their faith in their own imagination, in exploring the possibilities of what CAN be, rather than trying to maintain a very realistic perception of the dire situations that are about to unfold. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 11 14:06:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9BL5qCp011890; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 14:06:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9BL5nmP011860; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 14:05:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 14:05:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <010e01c5cea7$7fdae780$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: Ruination Day 2006 Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 14:05:24 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_010B_01C5CE6C.D3131480" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63730 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_010B_01C5CE6C.D3131480 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Reading Jed's post about a popular book with the title: "The Long = Emergency: Surviving the Converging Catastrophes of the Twenty-First = Century" brought to mind another grim flash - a possible omen of things = to come - which crossed through the normal fog of cognitive dissonance = recently. Ever hear of "Ruination Day"...(April 14)? It's becoming one of those = mythical ominous Spring dates... kind of like the "Ides of March". The = soothsayer's warning to Julius Caesar, "Beware the Ides of March," has = forever imbued that date (Mar 15th) with a sense of foreboding, at least = to those who remember a little history or a little Shakespeare. But in = April, according to the Roman scheme, the Ides would fall on the 13th, = so there is nothing pernicious really about modern "Ides" as a Lunar = dating quirk, or is there? Ruination day is now a reverberating meme embodied in a catchy song by = Gillian Welch, and it refers to the real events of April 14th of the = recent past - including the sinking of the Titanic, the assassination of = Abraham Lincoln and the almost unbelievable start of the "Dust Bowl" in = Oklahoma and Kansas. Ruination day And the sky was red. I went back to work, And back to bed. And the iceberg broke, And the Okies fled, And the Great Emancipator Took a bullet in the back of the head...=20 What is also a little striking about Ruination Day, depending on where = one happens to be living, is that next April marks the 100th anniversary = of the Great San Francisco Earthquake of 1906. It wasn't exactly on the = 14th, nor on the Ides of April, but instead a few days later on April = 18th. Close enough for government work and too close for comfort, = especially considering that the San Andreas Fault is known as a 100 year = fault. But you can't take that kind of thing, "100 years" literally, now can = you? Jones ------=_NextPart_000_010B_01C5CE6C.D3131480 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Reading Jed's post about a popular book = with the=20 title: "The Long Emergency: Surviving the Converging Catastrophes of the = Twenty-First Century" brought to mind another grim flash - a = possible omen=20 of things to come - which crossed through the normal fog of cognitive = dissonance=20 recently.

Ever hear of "Ruination Day"...(April 14)? It's = becoming one of=20 those mythical ominous Spring dates... kind of like the "Ides of=20 March". The soothsayer's warning to Julius Caesar, "Beware the Ides = of=20 March," has forever imbued that date (Mar 15th) with a sense of = foreboding, at=20 least to those who remember a little history or a little Shakespeare. = But in=20 April, according to the Roman scheme, the Ides would fall on the 13th, = so there=20 is nothing pernicious really about modern "Ides" as a Lunar dating = quirk, or is=20 there?

Ruination day is now a reverberating meme embodied in a catchy = song by=20 Gillian Welch, and it refers to the real events of April 14th of the = recent past=20 - including the sinking of the Titanic, the assassination of Abraham = Lincoln and=20 the almost unbelievable start of the "Dust Bowl" in Oklahoma and=20 Kansas.

Ruination day
And the sky was red.
I went back to=20 work,
And back to bed.

And the iceberg broke,
And the Okies = fled,
And the Great Emancipator
Took a bullet in the back of the = head...=20

What is also a little striking about Ruination Day, depending on = where=20 one happens to be living, is that next April marks the 100th = anniversary of=20 the Great San Francisco Earthquake of 1906. It wasn't exactly on the = 14th, nor=20 on the Ides of April, but instead a few days later on April 18th. Close = enough=20 for government work and too close for comfort, = especially considering=20 that the San Andreas Fault is known as a 100 year fault.

But = you=20 can't take that kind of thing, "100 years" literally, now can=20 you?

Jones
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_010B_01C5CE6C.D3131480-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 11 14:21:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9BLKpvU020140; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 14:21:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9BLKpmF020133; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 14:20:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 14:20:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l eskimo.com, Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: "The Long Emergency" (book) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 17:24:46 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051011143726.04652eb0 pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20051011143726.04652eb0 pop.mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200510111724.46914.rockcast earthlink.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j9BLKXnK019980 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63731 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tuesday 11 October 2005 14:42, Jed Rothwell wrote: > [I am not sure whether the first message in this series reached this > discussion group, but anyway . . .] > > Here is an example of the idiotic analysis described in the American > Scientist review: > > > Second is the large amount of oil needed to mine and process nuclear fuel > and to build and maintain nuclear plants. And the third, formidable > objection Kunstler makes is that "Atomic fission is useful for producing > electricity, but most of America's energy needs are for things that > electricity can't do very well, if at all. For instance, you can't fly > airplanes on electric power from nuclear reactors"­although, as he notes, > the U.S. military has tried. > > > Even if Kunstler does not understand how energy works, you would think that > someone at the American Scientist would understand that nuclear fission can > produce unlimited amounts of liquid chemical fuel, and that airplanes can > fly more efficiently, more safely and at a greater range with hydrogen fuel > than with conventional petroleum fuel. Of course it would cost a great deal > of money to build ~200 more nuclear power plants and designed a new fleet > of aircraft, but once we pay the up-front price and accomplish these tasks, > air transportation will be cheaper than it is today. > > - Jed Oh yes a 'plane' can be built that can be powered by nuclear systems. The problem is what happens if one crashes. Think of it. Nuclear subs have been powered this way for over two generations. The only problem is when something ELSE goes wrong with them.....collisions....hatches left open.... dangerous experiments with torpedoes like the 'Kursk' incident. We can and should design main boost propulsions systems using this as well and build a couple of these for emergency uses. That last is probably flame-bait, but scientists know that in space travel there are unknowns that we know we know nothing about, and other unknowns that we are totally unaware about....'unk-unk's. Thirty years ago we had no idea that there were so many earth crossing asteroids as there are....for one thing. Standing Bear From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 11 14:23:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9BLNO28021529; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 14:23:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9BLNLFr021495; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 14:23:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 14:23:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Sender: jack mail3.centurytel.net Message-ID: <434C2B61.603DD37 centurytel.net> Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 21:15:13 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Ruination Day 2006 References: <010e01c5cea7$7fdae780$6401a8c0 NuDell> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63732 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: What is also a little striking about Ruination Day, depending on where one happens to be living, is that next April marks the 100th anniversary of the Great San Francisco Earthquake of 1906. It wasn't exactly on the 14th, nor on the Ides of April, but instead a few days later on April 18th. Close enough for government work and too close for comfort, especially considering that the San Andreas Fault is known as a 100 year fault. Hi All, Didn't Waco happen on 4-19-94 and the Oklahoma City bombing on 4-19-96? "Apri is the cruelist month." Jack Smith From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 11 14:28:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9BLRkZC024434; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 14:28:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9BLRiS1024394; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 14:27:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 14:27:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051011163914.046591b0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 17:27:00 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: "The Long Emergency" (book) In-Reply-To: <4enjo0$1hua64h mxip16a.cluster1.charter.net> References: <4enjo0$1hua64h mxip16a.cluster1.charter.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63733 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: OrionWorks wrote: >It seems to me that Kunstler is simply being a realist. Someone who thinks that people will not respond to a severe energy crisis by by inventing new technology is not realistic. What does he think we are made of? People have transformed the whole face the planet, and we have it within our power to populate the whole solar system. We are going to roll over and play dead just because we run out of chemical energy! > "A useful maxim in engineering states that when > something sounds too good to be true, it generally > is not true." > >There is honor in being a realist. I see nothing realistic about this. It is a-historical. It is a sort of thing a person says when he is living in the present and has no concept of change, or history, no memory or experience of the past. People have devised millions of inventions that seemed too good to be true at first. Many seemed downright miraculous, or the work of the Devil. Think about how people reacted to anesthetics, railroads, airplanes . . . Looking around my desk I see a number of objects that in 1950 would have been considered either physically impossible or at best science fiction hundreds of years in the future: personal computers, thin screen televisions, a handheld GPS unit that works anywhere in North America, a 1.5 GB hard disk weighing 50 grams, an Internet connection, a telephone that can reach Japan for five cents a minute. Whether something "sounds" good or "seems" good is a value judgment that has no bearing whatever on whether something actually exists or not. Michael Faraday's dictum is the only guide: "Nothing is too wonderful to be true if it be consistent with the laws of nature." For that matter, nothing is too horrible to be true. Thermonuclear weapons are real. For all anyone knows, avian flu might cross the boundary to our species and kill 150 million people, starting next week. >OTOH, what Kunstler doesn't possess is an imagination. He lacks not only imagination, but knowledge of history and some very basic technical knowledge. He should have known that you can fly airplanes or power cars with hydrogen or hydrogen based synthetic fuels generated by nuclear fission. This is not a complicated idea, and it was first proposed in the 1940s. >There is much irony is this. IMHO, Kunstler's predictions are likely turn >out to be reasonably accurate . . . These predictions will only come true if hysterical naysayers such as Kunstler, Horgan and Rennie run things. Or right-wing fools who deny there is a problem. If traditional leaders such as Jefferson, Theodore Roosevelt or Kennedy lead us, we will find substitutes for oil that will be far less polluting, and cheaper in the long run. See chapter 19 of my book. >They are willing to put more of their faith in their own imagination, in >exploring the possibilities of what CAN be, rather than trying to maintain >a very realistic perception of the dire situations that are about to unfold. No one is more realistic about the severity of the technical difficulties than I. But to assume that people will not respond creatively -- as they have always done in the past -- is not realism. It is nihilism. You have to assume that human nature has changed, and that the skills that drove the scientific and industrial revolutions have mysteriously atrophied. I will grant, the worst-case scenarios are not unthinkable. As Jared Diamond pointed out in the book "Collapse," civilizations do sometimes destroy themselves, and ours is at present headed toward destruction. If we continue to elect fools, and be guided by ignorant nihilists, we will be in very serious trouble. And no matter what happens, sooner or later our civilization will run out of steam, and science as we know it will come to an end. For that matter, sooner or later our species will go extinct. But I see no reason why these things should happen now rather than 100 million years from now. We are still the same people who developed steam engines and nuclear weapons. Why should anyone think we cannot manufacture 30 million solar generators and wind turbines, and produce twice as much energy as we now do, or ten times more? Solar generators and wind turbines are made from concrete and steel which are available in vast amounts. We have more than enough windy unpopulated areas and deserts to deploy these machines. Anyone who can do the arithmetic can see that we could supply far more energy than we now do using these simple, robust, renewable sources. Yes, the energy would be more expensive than today's gasoline -- for 20 or 30 years, anyway -- but not catastrophically expensive. As I said, it would cost ~$8 a gallon. We are not going to starve to death at that rate. Our cities will not crumble. As usual, Arthur C. Clarke put it best, in the quote I put in Chapter 19: "The heavy hydrogen in the seas can drive all our machines, heat all our cities, for as far ahead as we can imagine. If, as is perfectly possible, we are short of energy two generations from now, it will be through our own incompetence. We will be like Stone Age men freezing to death on top of a coal bed." - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 11 14:36:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9BLaOc9028979; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 14:36:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9BLaN2U028953; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 14:36:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 14:36:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: "The Long Emergency" (book) X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = dcf35902a696aec8ab4a512a7c111b8b Reply-To: michael.foster excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20051011213603.15A5ABB592 xprdmailfe25.nwk.excite.com> Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 17:36:03 -0400 (EDT) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63734 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Just another Chicken Little running around in metaphorical circles shouting, "The sky is falling! The sky is falling!" M. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 11 14:48:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9BLlUCL001793; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 14:47:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9BLlS07001760; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 14:47:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 14:47:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051011173205.03970300 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 17:46:57 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: "The Long Emergency" (book) In-Reply-To: <200510111724.46914.rockcast earthlink.net> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051011143726.04652eb0 pop.mindspring.com> <200510111724.46914.rockcast earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <0HtwlC.A.cb.vLDTDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63735 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Standing Bear wrote: >Oh yes a 'plane' can be built that can be powered by nuclear systems. The >problem is what happens if one crashes. You seem to be missing the point. I am not recommending the use of fission reactors onboard airplanes. With our present technology I think this would be a dreadful idea. I said that fission reactors can easily synthesize hydrogen based fuel that can be used for airplanes. This was first suggested in the late 1940s. The point is that just because we run out of naturally occurring hydrocarbon fuel, that does not mean we have to stop using the stuff. It means we have to synthesize it from fission or solar energy. Both solutions are well within our technical grasp. If oil goes to $100 a barrel both will become cost-effective. Of course many people have legitimate fears about fission reactors, and present-day reactor models are far too expensive and unreliable. I am not particularly fond of them myself. But I am sure we can improve them, and we can live with them for the next few hundred years if we must. By that time we should have some sort of fusion or space-based solar. Both of these sources could provide millions of times more energy than we now consume. Both could easily generate enough energy to vaporize all of the planets in week or so. If we depend mainly on uranium fission for the next 200 years, we will probably experience some catastrophic meltdowns and build up a good-sized mountain of spent fuel, which will be a big headache to deal with. But these outcomes are nowhere near as bad as the pollution and long-term damage from burning an equivalent amount of coal. Present-day supplies of uranium fuel are sufficient to last thousands of years. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 11 15:11:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9BMBHGC015815; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 15:11:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9BMBEK5015783; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 15:11:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 15:11:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <49ct8j$1955229 mxip01a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.97,202,1125892800"; d="scan'208"; a="1381140553:sNHT30143846" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: OrionWorks Organization: OrionWorks To: CC: Subject: Re: "The Long Emergency" (book) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 17:10:41 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63736 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Jed Rothwell > > From: OrionWorks > > >It seems to me that Kunstler is simply being a realist. > > Someone who thinks that people will not respond to a severe > energy crisis by by inventing new technology is not realistic. > What does he think we are made of? People have transformed > the whole face the planet, and we have it within our power > to populate the whole solar system. We are going to roll > over and play dead just because we run out of chemical energy! > > > > "A useful maxim in engineering states that when > > something sounds too good to be true, it generally > > is not true." > > > >There is honor in being a realist. > > I see nothing realistic about this. Let me rephrase my previous comment. IMHO, I believe Kunstler is trying to maintain a "realistic" attitude - as he perceives the reality of the situation to be. It feels safer for Kunstler to believe in the "if it sounds too good to be true, it generally turns out not to be true" mantra than to risk wandering down uncharted territory where failure is just as likely an outcome as unverified success. It is a VERY POWERFUL mantra. Many converts repeat it over and over in their heads. It's obvious that Kunstler's perception of the reality of the situation, while possible, is fortunately not shared by you nor by me. Fortunately, there are enough unrealistic dreamers in the world willing to abandon sensible perceptions of the reality of the situation. They are willing to risk making fools of themselves. The world often ends up a better place because of their unrealistic foolishness. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 11 15:15:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9BMEiLC017668; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 15:14:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9BMEhLn017657; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 15:14:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 15:14:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051011174917.0399a5b0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 18:13:51 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: "The Long Emergency" (book) In-Reply-To: <20051011213603.15A5ABB592 xprdmailfe25.nwk.excite.com> References: <20051011213603.15A5ABB592 xprdmailfe25.nwk.excite.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63737 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michael Foster wrote: >Just another Chicken Little running around in >metaphorical circles shouting, "The sky is >falling! The sky is falling!" I agree, but this is worse, because we really do face a crisis. We may not face rack and ruin but the price of natural gas will go up 60% this winter, and in Atlanta tens of thousands of people will not be able to pay their bills. A Chicken Little who goes around yelling about problems that do not exist causes no harm, but one who exaggerates real problems or denies that there are practical solutions misguides society, and causes people unnecessary angst. At worst they may trigger what FDR called "nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance." Take the Y2K problem. As I said before, it was quite real. It was a financial disaster. Society was forced to spend billions of dollars in emergency repairs that should have been taken care of cheaply during routing maintenance 20 years earlier. Yes, it was a genuine problem, but programmers knew how to deal with it. The people who went around making hysterical claims that civilization was going to collapse on January 1, 2000 were fools, and they did nothing to help fix the problem. Kunstler resembles them. Again, as FDR put it, "Only a foolish optimist can deny the dark realities of the moment." The energy crisis is real, and it is hard upon us. It seems clear from developments during last year that we really do face global warming, which is probably caused by fossil fuels. You can tell it is real because big companies are scrambling to exploit the resources being uncovered as the ice melts in the Arctic and Antarctic. They investing billions of dollars. They are not fools, and they think the ice is gone for good. Among other things they are drilling for oil and mining coal, which will make the problem worse. The crisis is real, but so are the potential solutions, and anyone who denies that does not understand engineering or economics. (The FDR first Inaugural speech is here: http://www.hpol.org/fdr/inaug/. Compare it to recent speeches by politicians such as Bush and perhaps you will conclude that society is degenerating and the world is going to hell in a handbasket.) - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 11 15:47:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9BMkVZm001977; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 15:46:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9BMkU9L001959; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 15:46:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 15:46:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051011181529.0386ee60 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 18:45:56 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: "The Long Emergency" (book) In-Reply-To: <49ct8j$1955229 mxip01a.cluster1.charter.net> References: <49ct8j$1955229 mxip01a.cluster1.charter.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63738 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: OrionWorks wrote: >It's obvious that Kunstler's perception of the reality of the situation, >while possible, is fortunately not shared by you nor by me. >Fortunately, there are enough unrealistic dreamers in the world willing to >abandon sensible perceptions of the reality of the situation. Indeed. I expect all readers here are technological optimists. I was not suggesting that Steve agreed with Kunstler! But I still take issue with the statement that Kunstler is "realistic." How "realistic" is it to ignore the fact that the US has thousands of square miles of desert, and it would take only a small fraction of that to produce all the energy we now use? Other reviews of the book say it predicts Las Vegas will be abandoned because it uses so much electricity. Las Vegas is sitting in the middle of an ocean of solar energy, for crying out loud! Suppose you built a solar-energy industrial complex built next door to Los Vegas, on roughly the same scale as that city. That is to say, you use the same amount of materials, at about the same cost, but you cover a somewhat larger area. Not only could this complex supply all of electricity and automotive fuel in Las Vegas, it could supply all the fuel used everywhere on planet Earth. This is obvious. Look at a map; do the numbers. This is not an "unrealistic dream," it is a simple, straightforward cost benefit analysis. The 25 kW solar gadgets cost $400,000 each nowadays, but anyone can see that in large quantities they would cost maybe $50,000, or $2,000/kW of capacity. That's quite reasonable and far cheaper than conventional fission reactors. In humongous quantities -- manufactured in the millions -- the cost would probably fall to about $6,000 each, or $500/kW, which is dirt cheap. Again, this is not an unrealistic dream. It is the logic of mass production, something that Henry Ford proved back in 1908. Anyone can also see that it would take reasonable, do-able amounts of steel, concrete and desert land to manufacture and install millions of these things. Each gadget obviously weighs roughly as much as automobile. We manufacture 17 million automobiles per year; and we have 150 million of them in service at any given time. The solar gadgets last longer and we could maintain a "fleet" of 30 million of them without much trouble. That would supply 1.2 kW per U.S. citizen during the daytime, which is approximately enough to sustain a typical lifestyle after you take into account inefficiencies from hydrogen, and improved efficiencies from better lighting and plug-in hybrids, and so on. This would not be an elegant or cheap solution. It would require hydrogen pipelines and a lot of other new expensive infrastructure. So the question boils down to this: Can we afford to build another Las Vegas if that is what we must do to avoid worldwide energy shortages? Of course we can! We have not done this heretofore because oil has been so cheap. It is cheap because it is subsidized unfairly, and because we do not pay directly for the damage it causes from pollution and war. There are no technical limitations preventing us from doing this. If we start today, within 20 years there will be no energy shortage, and virtually no pollution from energy. On the other hand, gasoline will cost $8 per gallon, whereas with cold fusion it would cost $0.00000001 per gallon. Of course there is no need to actually make 30 million 25 kW solar gadgets. I would recommend a mix of . . . maybe ~10 million solar gadgets, ~3 million large scale wind turbines, and 200 new fission reactors in places that are far from deserts or windy areas. That would supply all the energy we need including liquid fuel, plus it would generate a tremendous amount of income from selling excess fuel to Japan and other countries, and it would eliminate the need for coal. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 11 19:00:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9C207im003493; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 19:00:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9C204dk003465; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 19:00:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 19:00:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002a01c5ced0$95cf5700$de027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: <20051011213603.15A5ABB592 xprdmailfe25.nwk.excite.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20051011174917.0399a5b0@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: "The Long Emergency" (book) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 20:59:30 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.8 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63739 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Michael Foster wrote: > >>Just another Chicken Little running around in >>metaphorical circles shouting, "The sky is >>falling! The sky is falling!" > Jed wrote > I agree, but this is worse, because we really do face a crisis. We may not > face rack and ruin but the price of natural gas will go up 60% this > winter, and in Atlanta tens of thousands of people will not be able to pay > their bills. Natural gas production capacity from offshore Gulf of Mexico wells remain a question mark for awhile because the extent of the damage to platforms and specially transmission pipeline damage remains incomplete. This represents almost 30% of the available US capacity. Any loss in this percentage represents a real problem this winter. Compounding the problem is that natural gas is used for electric power generation. Massive LNG terminals are being built or in planning to receive LNG from foriegn sources BUT the infrastructure remains to be completed to receive and transport LNG. Any serious shortage in natural gas supply will get attention like the stranded evacuees from Rita when they ran out of gas on the evacuation routes. Richard From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 11 21:01:01 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9C40RJu026088; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 21:00:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9C40PT7026055; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 21:00:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 21:00:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l eskimo.com, "John Steck" Subject: Re: spy chip vapper Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 00:04:22 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <000501c5cdb7$473f09b0$5c5e10ac eDentsply.com> In-Reply-To: <000501c5cdb7$473f09b0$5c5e10ac eDentsply.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200510120004.22706.rockcast earthlink.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63740 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Monday 10 October 2005 12:25, John Steck wrote: > That said, my privacy is guaranteed from everyone but the most interested > in violating it. Any of those motivated few don't need an electronic tag > to get or do what they want. > > -john > > If you don't think that businesses motivate their employees to spy on their customers, then why not take a drive to your nearest Kroger. They issue a card called a 'Kroger Plus' card to those foolish enough to apply for one that is the very soul of privacy invasion. This application becomes established your identity to their system. It contains just about enough personal information to make your identity easily stolen. In Kroger's case, they must be doing something with it. Every time one presents this card at a Kroger cash line, every item purchased is recorded in their database with something in your personal info as the 'key field' along with the date, time, and store location. Over time a detailed profile of your life, habits, and health, mental and physical, and occupation and vices, real and probable, can be drawn. And draw it they do. They have reportedly gone to court with evidence of customer beer purchases gleaned from Kroger Plus Card histories in order to allege alcoholism and not Kroger's slippery floors were the cause of customer slip and fall injuries.....and won! This data must be quite valuable, as Kroger is willing to forego up to forty percent or more of the 'retail' purchase price of thousands of items just to get its claws on this data. Typical item, coffee, is just over five dollars for what used to be a 3 pound can size if one consents to privacy violation, and almost ten dollars for the same can if one values his privacy. It is known from news items published right after 11Sep01 that Kroger has been providing this info to government security agencies. They claim that they will not 'give it out', but have never said that they do not actually sell it, make it 'available' to its 'business partners' ad nauseum or some other weasel words to the effect that they are doing just that....selling it. Their employees become quite nasty when questioned about this, and seem quite willing to lie for Kroger. I suspect that cameras and microphones in the store record all employee statements and actions such that they live under a self censorship regime similar to that of totalitarian nations. It makes me wonder just why they would pay so much for knowledge of our individual shopping habits. Especially when in the past and near to the present we have been told in the media that average store profit was one percent or less. That said why would Kroger operate willingly at a forty percent loss? Unless the not spy card users were overcharged; but prices in Kroger, while higher than Wal-Mart, are not THAT much higher. So why would they knowingly seemingly operate at such a crushing loss; and do it year after year? Course if one buys beer regularly, this could be profiled as alcoholism. Sweet stuff often, maybe the purchaser is a diabetic Certain kinds of groceries as a general pattern would yield ethnic origin. Buy a lot of hummus and lamb and olive oil and you are a middle easterner and may gain status on the government's 'no fly list'. Even infants and dead people get on it; why not you if you have a penchant for these things ....and your name is 'Hassan'. But if your name is American and you buy these things then maybe you are a sleeper agent? Suppose also you buy quite a bit of kitchen chemicals, drain cleaners, and other stuff; then your records become valuable to other government agencies like drug enforcement. Many of the above would pay quite a bit to become a 'business partner' of Kroger....speaking hypothetically of course. Hey! They have GOT to be making money enough to keep the doors open every day when less than 25 shoppers are in the store at any one time. They have GOT to be making money somewhere when the deli counters are full of meat that goes rotten in the cases because no one comes to buy. They have GOT to be making enough money to keep the lights on and maintain 13 cash register counters and computer controlled inventory management systems and check verification systems in or on each one, especially when only one register terminal is ever manned outside of the so called check yourself out registers. They must be making money to run a social experiment in coercion to force customers to use automated check out systems merely by adopting a practice of having only one manual check out aisle staffed. This has driven away many customers yet Kroger persists in this onerous practice in the face of this. Most customers do not like to wait in lines from the front of the store clear back to the meat counter when the store could simply staff another register. Customers inconvenienced in this way often just drive down the street to a place that does not treat its customers as saleable databases and unwilling guinea pigs in business practices experiments reminiscent of Adam Smith. They leave. Anonymous From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 11 21:04:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9C42u94028114; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 21:03:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9C42sBX028096; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 21:02:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 21:02:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Ruination Day 2006 Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 00:06:59 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <010e01c5cea7$7fdae780$6401a8c0 NuDell> <434C2B61.603DD37@centurytel.net> In-Reply-To: <434C2B61.603DD37 centurytel.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200510120006.59696.rockcast earthlink.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63741 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tuesday 11 October 2005 17:15, Taylor J. Smith wrote: > Jones Beene wrote: > > What is also a little striking about Ruination Day, depending on where > one happens to be living, is that next April marks the 100th anniversary > of the Great San Francisco Earthquake of 1906. It wasn't exactly on the > 14th, nor on the Ides of April, but instead a few days later on April > 18th. Close enough for government work and too close for comfort, > especially considering that the San Andreas Fault is known as a 100 year > fault. > > Hi All, > > Didn't Waco happen on 4-19-94 and the Oklahoma > City bombing on 4-19-96? > > "Apri is the cruelist month." > > Jack Smith Couple more for you! Hitler was born on April 20. We ran out on the South Viet-Namese on 23 April 1975. Standing Bear From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 12 00:22:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9C7Lm5L014844; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 00:22:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9C7LkRE014813; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 00:21:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 00:21:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 02:21:29 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: The Long Emergency Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63742 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell posted; >Take the Y2K problem. As I said before, it was quite real. It was a >financial disaster. >Society was forced to spend billions of dollars >in emergency repairs that should >have been taken care of cheaply >during routing maintenance 20 years earlier. Yes, >it was a genuine >problem, but programmers knew how to deal with it. The people >who >went around making hysterical claims that civilization was going to >collapse >on January 1, 2000 were fools, and they did nothing to >help fix the problem. >Kunstler resembles them. If they hadn't raised the alarm, the business executives would have gone on ignoring the problem until it was too late. It would have been a real mess if any of the critical systems had failed on Jan 01. >Other reviews of the book say it predicts Las Vegas will be >abandoned because it >uses so much electricity. Las Vegas is sitting in the middle of an >ocean of solar >energy, for crying out loud! I got a call from Phoenix over the weekend. They've been pumping ground water. There are big cracks opening up in the ground. A group paid $250 million for a piece of land with the intention of developing it. now the project is on hold because of subsidence, bummer. >The 25 kW solar gadgets cost $400,000 each nowadays, but anyone can >see that in >large quantities they would cost maybe $50,000, or >$2,000/kW of capacity. I was just reading a book. They are offering a 30 KW and a 50 KW generator engine set for $20,000. It runs on hydrogen, which it generates. This to too good to be true, there has to be some catch here, From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 12 03:10:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9CA9vIJ018999; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 03:10:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9CA9taa018977; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 03:09:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 03:09:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <018701c5cf15$07c2ffd0$a4b1e118 D54BYG11> Reply-To: "John Coviello" From: "John Coviello" To: "Vortex" Subject: Compact Flourecent Lighting Big In Italy Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 06:09:17 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0184_01C5CEF3.7A8BBC40" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-SpamScore: s X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-From: johnwc patmedia.net Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63743 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0184_01C5CEF3.7A8BBC40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I just returned from Italy and can report that compact fluorescent = lighting has caught on in a big way there. It is so ubiquitous that I = didn't even notice it at first. A lot of restaurants and hotels are = using compact fluorescent lighting throughout. The compact fluorescent = lights were available in all stores. =20 Gasoline was selling for between $1.25 and $1.50 a litter. Which works = out to $5.50 to $7.00 a gallon after the conversions from liters to = gallons and from Euros to Dollars are made. ------=_NextPart_000_0184_01C5CEF3.7A8BBC40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I just returned from Italy and can report that = compact=20 fluorescent lighting has caught on in a big way there.  It is so = ubiquitous=20 that I didn't even notice it at first.  A lot of restaurants and = hotels are=20 using compact fluorescent lighting throughout.  The compact = fluorescent=20 lights were available in all stores. 
 
Gasoline was selling for between $1.25 and $1.50 = a=20 litter.  Which works out to $5.50 to $7.00 a gallon after the = conversions=20 from liters to gallons and from Euros to Dollars are=20 made.
------=_NextPart_000_0184_01C5CEF3.7A8BBC40-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 12 06:04:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9CD4EFa025943; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 06:04:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9CD49Fv025918; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 06:04:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 06:04:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <4eo5r2$p2mt6h mxip04a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.97,206,1125892800"; d="scan'208"; a="841708753:sNHT15807060" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: OrionWorks Organization: OrionWorks To: CC: Subject: Re: The Long Emergency Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 8:03:46 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63744 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Malloy sez: . > Jed sez: > Jed Rothwell posted; > > > Take the Y2K problem. As I said before, it was quite > > real. It was a financial disaster. >Society was forced > > to spend billions of dollars in emergency repairs that > > should >have been taken care of cheaply during routing > > maintenance 20 years earlier. Yes, >it was a genuine > >problem, but programmers knew how to deal with it. The > > people >who went around making hysterical claims that > > civilization was going to collapse >on January 1, 2000 > > were fools, and they did nothing to help fix the > > problem. >Kunstler resembles them. > > If they hadn't raised the alarm, the business executives > would have gone on ignoring the problem until it was too > late. It would have been a real mess if any of the > critical systems had failed on Jan 01. On this point I would have to agree with Thomas 100%. The fact that many have complained about how much time, money, and human man-power was spent upgrading computer code and then NOTHING of any significance happened when 2000 rolled around shows that the money was largely well spent. In our shop we started getting serious about Y2K upgrading ten years prior to 2000. We started getting frantic by around 1996. In a certain aspect it's a loose-loose situation for many DP (Data Processing) shops. If they fail to fix the problem the systems will fail on Jan. 1. 2000 and there will be hell to pay. If they FIX the problem their customers will complain that nothing really happened so why did they spent so much money on fixing a non-existing problem. Either way, your actions will be criticised. ... Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWOrks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 12 07:36:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9CEaBiI019201; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 07:36:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9CEaATW019168; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 07:36:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 07:36:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051012102407.0463beb0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 10:35:20 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: The Long Emergency In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63745 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: >>The people >who went around making hysterical claims that civilization >>was going to collapse >on January 1, 2000 were fools, and they did >>nothing to help fix the problem. >Kunstler resembles them. > >If they hadn't raised the alarm, the business executives would have gone >on ignoring the problem until it was too late. That is not true. I was writing programs and documentation all through the 80s and 90s. I read the trade mags and attended conferences. By 1995 I doubt there was a single data processing business executive in North American who was unaware of the Y2K problem. The people who claimed that civilization was going to come to an end contributed *nothing* to their knowledge, and did nothing to help fix the problem. The only Y2K "crisis" was the expense of fixing it. The longer you put it off, the more expensive it became. The same goes for the energy crisis. The energy crisis and global warming are also a physical threat, and a national security issue, whereas there was no chance that Y2K problems would interfere with critical national infrastructure computers. They were not many of them and they were all fixed a long time ago. My point is that these crises are bad enough already. We do not need to sensationalize them or pretend they are bad in ways they are not. > It would have been a real mess if any of the critical systems had failed > on Jan 01. Of course, but everyone knew that and everyone understood how to fix them. From a programming point of view it was a trivial job -- a lot of code cranking and testing. The energy crisis is much more difficult to fix. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 12 08:00:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9CExWQq002131; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 07:59:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9CExTi0002082; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 07:59:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 07:59:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <4enei5$1c7aqdr mxip02a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.97,207,1125892800"; d="scan'208"; a="1484089787:sNHT16270894" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: OrionWorks Organization: OrionWorks To: CC: Subject: Re: The Long Emergency Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 9:59:03 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63746 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Jed Rothwell ... > The 25 kW solar gadgets cost $400,000 each nowadays, but > anyone can see that in large quantities they would cost > maybe $50,000, or $2,000/kW of capacity. That's quite > reasonable and far cheaper than conventional fission > reactors. In humongous quantities -- manufactured in the > millions -- the cost would probably fall to about $6,000 > each, or $500/kW, which is dirt cheap. Again, this is not > an unrealistic dream. It is the logic of mass production, > something that Henry Ford proved back in 1908. I recall arguing this POV in one of my exams back in one of my college freshman classes: Introduction to Economics. I got the questions wrong, BTW, as far as the professor was concerned. To be more accurate the professor was trying to teach his freshmen class the well known "Supply versus Demand" curve where increasing demand causes a product (with fixed production limitations) to increase in individual unit price. My mistake was that I refused to believe in the "fixed production limitations" scenario. While the professor was correct I was already thinking ahead about the fact that if factories would simply increase the scale of production that, assuming supplies were available, that that ought to eventually reduce individual unit costs. I was arguing a correct economical model but in the wrong economics class. It was frustrating for me because I knew I was right, but I couldn't explain it properly to the professor. The point I'm trying to make is that as prices for PCs and HDTV screens continue to drop each year as increased production and technological refinements drive individual unit costs down so will the costs of purchasing AE technologies compared to buying another barrel of Saudi oil. Continued technological innovations will reduce the cost of investing and buying into AE. The rules of capitalism will ensure a bright future for AE, particularly if oil continues to remain expensive. I suspect the more savvy Saudis know this fact as well but they are powerless to do anything about it. Perhaps if I were a smart Saudi I might start funneling as much of my recent $60+ a barrel windfall profits into developing technologies to generate synthetic fuels as the most sensible approach in trying to keep my customer base from retooling. Gee! What could we use for an Energy Source over there Saudi Arabia! All we've got is a lot of desert and hot sunshine! But I suspect they won't do this. They will, instead, squander their recent windfalls in bribes, placating their subjects and government employees, giving them hefty raises in the hope of staving off dissatisfaction among the ranks. They hope it will reduce political turmoil and the eventual overthrow of the political system - a hopefully bloodless revolution I think that is inevitable. I recall conversing with a Saudi engineering student at a party over 20 years ago. I'm sure the Saudi government was paying for his engineering education. Never the less, he expressed great dissatisfaction for the political system in his country. He was ready for some kind of democracy. Unfortunately, I don't know how many other Saudis felt the same way he did. I wonder how many are actually interested in exploring democracy as compared to establishing another Theocracy. I wonder what the democratic chances are when we see the problems our current administration have created in their naive efforts to force "democracy" down the throats of Iraqis, a democracy which did not originate within the hearts and minds of the common Iraqi individual. But I'm getting WAAAY off on a tangent here... It seems that most oil countries like Saudi Arabia will continue to do what they do best: sell oil, and then sell more oil. Hopefully we'll wise up. ... Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 12 08:03:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9CF3HWJ004806; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 08:03:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9CF3Ead004776; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 08:03:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 08:03:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=cXJn0k7KYv/f3QpToy/wreB7PufpUaWKXFS1AvmemZ+LdI1o9wB0MoiteYT6wDBO; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220051031214155120 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cnvection Mill Heat Engine Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 09:01:55 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9407b02e9b20164bd67e0671c00035982ae350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.120.206 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63747 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII For low grade heat conversion. The Convection Mill 1897 http://www.globalwarmingsolutions.co.uk/joules_thermoscope.htm "Alfred R Bennett4 devised an instrument to demonstrate the existence of convection currents. A hollow metal cylinder painted black stands on legs inside a glass vessel which is sealed. When the instrument is placed in daylight, the metal absorbs solar energy warming air inside the cylinder which rises. It then descends in the space between the cylinder and the outer glass vessel. Vanes on the outside of the cylinder and in a window within the cylinder rotate in opposite directions demonstrating the path of convection currents. There is a Convection Mill on display in the Heat section of the Science Museum in London. Addressing the Manchester Literary and Philosophical Society in 1897, Bennett8 said that, "The delicacy of the motor is such that it is affected by the radiant heat of moonlight." Bennett devised many variations of his instrument that could be used for a range of physical measurements4. It is extraordinary that such an unsophisticated instrument as the Convection Mill could detect the energy of moonlight. It must mean that this extremely small amount of heat is converted into mechanical energy with very high efficiency" ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
For low grade heat conversion. 
 
The Convection Mill 1897

http://www.globalwarmingsolutions.co.uk/joules_thermoscope.htm

"Alfred R Bennett4 devised an instrument to demonstrate the existence of convection currents. A hollow metal cylinder painted black stands on legs inside a glass vessel which is sealed. When the instrument is placed in daylight, the metal absorbs solar energy warming air inside the cylinder which rises. It then descends in the space between the cylinder and the outer glass vessel. Vanes on the outside of the cylinder and in a window within the cylinder rotate in opposite directions demonstrating the path of convection currents. There is a Convection Mill on display in the Heat section of the Science Museum in London.

Addressing the Manchester Literary and Philosophical Society in 1897, Bennett8 said that, "The delicacy of the motor is such that it is affected by the radiant heat of moonlight." Bennett devised many variations of his instrument that could be used for a range of physical measurements4.

It is extraordinary that such an unsophisticated instrument as the Convection Mill could detect the energy of moonlight. It must mean that this extremely small amount of heat is converted into mechanical energy with very high efficiency"

 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 12 08:08:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9CF8L5R008125; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 08:08:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9CF8Hrx008074; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 08:08:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 08:08:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051012103604.04609570 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 11:07:36 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: spy chip vapper In-Reply-To: <200510120004.22706.rockcast earthlink.net> References: <000501c5cdb7$473f09b0$5c5e10ac eDentsply.com> <200510120004.22706.rockcast earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <6fGSGB.A._9B.hbSTDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63748 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Standing Bear wrote: >If you don't think that businesses motivate their employees to spy on >their customers, then why not take a drive to your nearest Kroger. >They issue a card called a 'Kroger Plus' card to those foolish enough >to apply for one that is the very soul of privacy invasion. This kind of data collection has been going on since commerce began 4000 years ago. When I was growing up, the grocer, the pharmacist, the pediatrician (Dr. Davis) and the toy store owner (Mr. Sullivan) knew just about every family in the neighborhood. They knew our likes, dislikes, our habits, prejudices, and so on, in much more detail than any modern Kroger checkout clerk or headquarters data processing guy. This was in Washington, DC, by the way. In small towns such as Emmitsburg, MD not only did the grocer to know everything about you, so did the teacher, the sheriff and all of your neighbors for miles around. The computers at Kroger store a great deal of information about us, but this is mainly in the form of statistical tabulations. For example, the machines know that people of a given income level are prone to buy certain products such as sushi or whole wheat bread. They do not care about individuals, and the people who program these computers have no time to poke into your business. >This application becomes established your identity to their system. It >contains just about enough personal information to make your identity >easily stolen. I doubt that! Kroger would liable for hundreds of millions in lawsuits if that were true. In any case, the way to avoid identity theft is to make personal information *more readily available*, not less. That way, any computer can check your bona fides against a certified central database. People who hearken back to halcyon days when privacy was assured know nothing about the history of commerce. In 1850, for example, up-and-coming go-getters such as Abraham Lincoln earned a substantial amount of money on the side by reporting on the personal habits of every merchant, farmer and tradesmen in town to the credit agencies in New York, which later evolved into Dun & Bradstreet. They did not just report on credit worthiness (as they do nowadays), they reported people's religions, literacy, education, marital affairs, whether they went to church, how much they owed to friends, whether they owned or rented, whether they kept their houses neat and so on and so forth. There were no privacy laws and no expectation of privacy anywhere. The credit files were full of baseless rumors, innuendo and stories planted by competitors, and there was no legal recourse whatever to erase this. The only way to escape it was to change your name and move to another town. >In Kroger's case, they must be doing something with it. What they do with it is common knowledge. You can read about it in detail in any trade magazine or book about the modern grocery industry and data processing. Mainly what they do is save billions of dollars a year in food that would otherwise be spoiled and thrown away. They save enough food to feed a Third World country. This is a good thing. The only drawback to this (besides the fact that it is a mild invasion of privacy) is that food banks receive much less overstocked food than they used to. >Every time one presents this card at a Kroger cash line, every item >purchased is recorded in their database with something in your personal >info as the 'key field' along with the date, time, and store >location. Over time a detailed profile of your life, habits, and health, >mental and physical, and occupation and vices, real and probable, can be >drawn. And draw it they do. But the computers don't know a tenth as much as Mr. Sullivan did, and they never gossip. >It makes me wonder just why they would pay so much for knowledge >of our individual shopping habits. The reasons are perfectly obvious to anyone who has worked in retail data processing. People who say that modern computer technology is likely to lead to totalitarian government lack a sense of history. Three of the most notorious totalitarian governments in history were the Aztecs, the Tokugawa shogunate, and the Nazis. All three operated without modern technology. All three collected detailed information about their citizens and controlled people's personal lives to an extent that would be impossible in the modern world. Also, it should be noted that computers work in both directions. We know more about the inner workings of our government and corporations than any country in history. Or if we do not know, it is our own fault because we can now find out. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 12 08:15:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9CFEKBC011604; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 08:14:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9CFEJtO011559; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 08:14:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 08:14:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=OfVwIyUSOt0jzomnab475w13OZGi4PFoypAtuaRx1riC1hsiB0GXADDJI7ZDZbyw; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200510312141255650 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Convection Mill Heat Engine Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 09:12:55 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9405d27c903ce70a547575516b2c78c6d00350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.120.206 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63749 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Wow. 1/10,000 deg F sensitivity. :-) http://www.globalwarmingsolutions.co.uk/joules_sketch_of_thermoscope_and_references.htm "The delicacy of this thermoscope is such that a small blackened pan containing a pint of water heated 30° F placed at 2 yards distance makes the index go through 5° . I have increased the delicacy of the instrument by counteracting the magnetism of this earth, and now by placing it at 2 yards from a shutter with a slit in it and marking the effect of the moon as a beam of its light passes by, I find a distinct effect of about 4° which indicates, as far as I can estimate it at present, that the air on one side of this diaphragm was raised about 1 _____ 10000 of a degree F. I intend to improve on the instrument and make it more useful by the next time we have a full moon. I am returning from here on Saturday. I must contrive some means of getting our apparatus to work again but I fear it cannot be managed at Thorncliff and I shall have to find some other place in the neighbourhood." ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l eskimo.com Sent: 10/12/05 10:03:31 AM Subject: Re: Convection Mill Heat Engine For low grade heat conversion. The Convection Mill 1897 http://www.globalwarmingsolutions.co.uk/joules_thermoscope.htm "Alfred R Bennett4 devised an instrument to demonstrate the existence of convection currents. A hollow metal cylinder painted black stands on legs inside a glass vessel which is sealed. When the instrument is placed in daylight, the metal absorbs solar energy warming air inside the cylinder which rises. It then descends in the space between the cylinder and the outer glass vessel. Vanes on the outside of the cylinder and in a window within the cylinder rotate in opposite directions demonstrating the path of convection currents. There is a Convection Mill on display in the Heat section of the Science Museum in London. Addressing the Manchester Literary and Philosophical Society in 1897, Bennett8 said that, "The delicacy of the motor is such that it is affected by the radiant heat of moonlight." Bennett devised many variations of his instrument that could be used for a range of physical measurements4. It is extraordinary that such an unsophisticated instrument as the Convection Mill could detect the energy of moonlight. It must mean that this extremely small amount of heat is converted into mechanical energy with very high efficiency" ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Wow. 1/10,000  deg F sensitivity.   :-)
 
 
 

 

 

"The delicacy of this thermoscope is such that a small blackened pan containing a pint of water heated 30° F placed at 2 yards distance makes the index go through 5° . I have increased the delicacy of the instrument by counteracting the magnetism of this earth, and now by placing it at 2 yards from a shutter with a slit in it and marking the effect of the moon as a beam of its light passes by, I find a distinct effect of about 4° which indicates, as far as I can estimate it at present, that the air on one side of this diaphragm was raised about

    1 

_____

10000 of a degree F. I intend to improve on the instrument and make it more useful by the next time we have a full moon.

I am returning from here on Saturday. I must contrive some means of getting our apparatus to work again but I fear it cannot be managed at Thorncliff and I shall have to find some other place in the neighbourhood."

 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 10/12/05 10:03:31 AM
Subject: Re: Convection Mill Heat Engine

For low grade heat conversion. 
 
The Convection Mill 1897

http://www.globalwarmingsolutions.co.uk/joules_thermoscope.htm

"Alfred R Bennett4 devised an instrument to demonstrate the existence of convection currents. A hollow metal cylinder painted black stands on legs inside a glass vessel which is sealed. When the instrument is placed in daylight, the metal absorbs solar energy warming air inside the cylinder which rises. It then descends in the space between the cylinder and the outer glass vessel. Vanes on the outside of the cylinder and in a window within the cylinder rotate in opposite directions demonstrating the path of convection currents. There is a Convection Mill on display in the Heat section of the Science Museum in London.

Addressing the Manchester Literary and Philosophical Society in 1897, Bennett8 said that, "The delicacy of the motor is such that it is affected by the radiant heat of moonlight." Bennett devised many variations of his instrument that could be used for a range of physical measurements4.

It is extraordinary that such an unsophisticated instrument as the Convection Mill could detect the energy of moonlight. It must mean that this extremely small amount of heat is converted into mechanical energy with very high efficiency"

 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 12 08:22:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9CFLvhX016108; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 08:22:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9CFLtl0016070; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 08:21:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 08:21:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <434D29F9.5010205 pobox.com> Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 11:21:29 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.10) Gecko/20050719 Fedora/1.7.10-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: "The Long Emergency" (book) References: <20051011213603.15A5ABB592 xprdmailfe25.nwk.excite.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20051011174917.0399a5b0@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20051011174917.0399a5b0 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <5hzF9.A.A7D.SoSTDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63750 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Michael Foster wrote: > >> Just another Chicken Little running around in >> metaphorical circles shouting, "The sky is >> falling! The sky is falling!" > > > I agree, but this is worse, because we really do face a crisis. We may > not face rack and ruin but the price of natural gas will go up 60% > this winter, and in Atlanta tens of thousands of people will not be > able to pay their bills. > > A Chicken Little who goes around yelling about problems that do not > exist causes no harm, but one who exaggerates real problems or denies > that there are practical solutions misguides society, and causes > people unnecessary angst. At worst they may trigger what FDR called > "nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed > efforts to convert retreat into advance." > > Take the Y2K problem. As I said before, it was quite real. It was a > financial disaster. Society was forced to spend billions of dollars in > emergency repairs that should have been taken care of cheaply during > routing maintenance 20 years earlier. I disagree. When you talk about "routine maintenance" in this context I think you are imagining a world that did not exist. The Y2K problems were entirely, or almost entirely, software problems. "20 years earlier" than year 2000 was year 1980. Remember what things were like? A typical personal computer was still an Apple ][ -- the Lisa (remember the Lisa?) cost about $10,000 IIRC and almost nobody had even seen one. The Xerox Star was still a new concept. LISP machines made people gasp when they saw what sorts of things they could do, and WYSIWYG was a great idea but it required a very fancy screen to do well. Most programmers were fresh out of college, and a lot of colleges didn't even offer a software degree yet: you got a math degree or a double-E degree instead. Now, what "routine maintenance" was going on in the software world? Darn little, because almost nothing was "routine" in those days. The only established software base with anything like a "routine" associated with it was the IBM mainframe world, where the universe still ran on COBOL and PL/1. Everything else was barely more than nascent, and what's more things were changing so fast that almost nobody believed any software they wrote was still going to be in use in 5 years, let alone 20 years! You plan for things you think may actually happen; the idea that a piece of code written that year was still going to be in use in the year 2000 seemed like an obvious absurdity. Consider what actually happened to a lot of code and systems from that ear. LISP machines are long gone, the LISA was a dead end (it did _not_ turn into a Macintosh), and that PL/1 code has vanished into the bit-bucket. Everything on WANG and Interleaf systems turned out to be not-a-problem in Y2K because the companies had disappeared along with their Y2K bugs. The BLISS, Macro-10, and RATFOR code that people were writing did what everyone expected it to do and vanished during the intervening years. But miraculously some of the COBOL code lived on and haunted our lives in 2000 ... which was a completely unexpected outcome. Most of our software today seems to be written in C. Remember C in 1980? 6 character variable names on globals (that's right, just six), all structure component names came from a COMMON POOL (yes, they did!), no type-checking on subroutine calls or much of anything else, and BLISS seemed like reasonable competition for the language. The language was so feeble that getting a large C program to work _at_ _all_ was a major challenge in those days; worrying about how well it would work 20 years later was totally outside the picture. Asserting that "routine maintenance" of software in 1980 should have included fixing Y2K problems is a little absurd, I think. 1990 is a different story -- things had changed and settled down a lot, and in fact some firms were already working on the Y2K issues, because people were also starting to realize that some programs did have useful lives of more than ten years. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 12 08:23:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9CFNDVx017013; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 08:23:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9CFN9wL016975; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 08:23:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 08:23:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Originating-IP: [4.88.32.216] Mime-Version: 1.0 From: "gesrebspar juno.com" Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 15:20:56 GMT To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: "The Long Emergency" (book) X-Mailer: Webmail Version 3.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <20051012.082106.23993.174327 webmail35.nyc.untd.com> X-ContentStamp: 3:4:332492192 X-UNTD-OriginStamp: GUNT6dKCgH8aoKLPKyRSHkQeFMDf/wCnVPUjSwVU1gLJSy/7EWqbPA== X-UNTD-Peer-Info: 10.141.27.175|webmail35.nyc.untd.com|webmail35.nyc.untd.com|gesrebspar juno.com Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63751 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vortexians- Is it not true that we have enough coal for at least 300-500 years. Isn't possible to make a less polluting fuel such as methanol or methane gas from this coal. We are still ignoring one of our other problems which could be part of the energy solution. One hundred percent recyling of our waste, probably enough to suply 1/3 of our energy needs. _ges- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 12 08:42:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9CFfuWv030458; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 08:42:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9CFfsjA030388; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 08:41:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 08:41:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Originating-IP: [4.88.32.216] Mime-Version: 1.0 From: "gesrebspar juno.com" Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 15:40:30 GMT To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Fw: Holy Cow !!!!!! OT_ BUT WOW. X-Mailer: Webmail Version 3.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed;boundary="--__JWM__J237c.2f1cS.7de1M" Message-Id: <20051012.084035.23993.174735 webmail35.nyc.untd.com> X-ContentStamp: 1:1:1081154865 X-UNTD-OriginStamp: GUNT6dKCgH8aoKLPKyRSHkQeFMDf/wCnFsrXI1756PUlhkLeVyXBBg== X-UNTD-Peer-Info: 10.141.27.175|webmail35.nyc.untd.com|webmail35.nyc.untd.com|gesrebspar juno.com Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63753 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ----__JWM__J237c.2f1cS.7de1M Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Please note: forwarded message attached ----__JWM__J237c.2f1cS.7de1M Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from mx11.nyc.untd.com (mx11.nyc.untd.com [10.140.24.71]) by maildeliver27.nyc.untd.com with SMTP id AABBW27VRARTZH6A for (sender ); Tue, 11 Oct 2005 19:35:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.kimbanet.com (mail.kimbanet.com [208.6.38.1]) by mx11.nyc.untd.com with SMTP id AABBW27VQAUJC4QJ (sender ); Tue, 11 Oct 2005 19:35:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sylvia [208.25.247.56] by mail.kimbanet.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-8.05) id A6443A770084; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 22:34:44 -0400 Message-ID: <01d401c5ced5$80455330$38f719d0 sylvia> From: "Grammasyl" To: Subject: Holy Cow !!!!!! Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 22:34:34 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01CF_01C5CEB3.F43CF2B0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Junkmail: --------------------------------- Begin Junkmail Results ------------------------------------- X-Junkmail: Test Failed: Whitelisted X-Junkmail: Total Weight: 0 X-Junkmail: Spool File: D76443a770084ad4e.SMD X-Junkmail: Mail From: Grammasyl kimbanet.com X-Junkmail: Country Chain: X-Junkmail: This E-mail was sent from ([208.25.247.56]). X-Junkmail: This E-mail was scanned by kimbanet for spam and viruses. X-Junkmail: ---------------------------------- End Junkmail Results -------------------------------------- X-ContentStamp: 26:13:2048238050 X-UNTD-Peer-Info: 208.6.38.1|mail.kimbanet.com|mail.kimbanet.com|Grammasyl kimbanet.com X-UNTD-UBE: -1 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01CF_01C5CEB3.F43CF2B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable GRADUATION IN 1895 What it took to get an 8th grade education in 1895 Remember when grandparents and great-grandparents stated that they only = had an 8th grade education? Well, check this out. Could any of us have passed = the 8th grade in 1895? This is the eighth-grade final exam from 1895 in Salina, Kansas, USA. It = was taken from the original document on file at the Smokey Valley Genealogical = Society and Library in Salina, KS, and reprinted by the Salina Journal. 8th Grade Final Exam: Salina, KS - 1895 =20 Grammar (Time, one hour) 1. Give nine rules for the use of capital letters. 2. Name the parts of speech and define those that have no modifications. 3. Define verse, stanza and paragraph 4. What are the principal parts of a verb? Give principal parts = of"lie,""play," and "run. 5. Define case; Illustrate each case. 6. What is punctuation? Give rules for principal marks of punctuation. 7-10. Write a composition of about 150 words and show therein that you understand the practical use of the rules of grammar. Arithmetic (Time, 1.25 hours) 1. Name and define the Fundamental Rules of Arithmetic. 2. A wagon box is 2 ft. deep, 10 feet long, and 3 ft. wide. How many = bushels of wheat will it hold? 3. If a load of wheat weighs 3942 lbs., what is it worth at = 50cts/bushel, deducting 1050 lbs. for tare? 4. District No 33 has a valuation of $35,000. What is the necessary levy = to carry on a school seven months at $50 per month, and have $104 for = incidentals? 5. Find the cost of 6720 lbs. coal at $6.00 per ton. 6. Find the interest of $512.60 for 8 months and 18 days at 7 percent. 7. What is the cost of 40 boards 12 inches wide and 16 ft. long at $20 = per metre? 8. Find bank discount on $300 for 90 days (no grace) at 10 percent. 9. What is the cost of a square farm at $15 per acre, the distance of = which is 640 rods? 10. Write a Bank Check, a Promissory Note, and a Receipt. U.S. History (Time, 45 minutes) 1. Give the epochs into which U.S. History is divided. 2. Give an account of the discovery of America by Columbus. 3. Relate the causes and results of the Revolutionary War. 4. Show the territorial growth of the United States. 5. Tell what you can of the history of Kansas. 6. Describe three of the most prom inent battles of the Rebellion. 7. Who were the following: Morse, Whitney, Fulton, Bell, Lincoln, Penn, = and Howe? 8. Name events connected with the following dates: 1607, 1620, 1800, = 1849, 1865. Orthography (Time, one hour) 1. What is meant by the following: Alphabet, phonetic, orthography, = etymology, syllabication 2. What are elementary sounds? How classified? 3. What are the following, and give examples of each: Trigraph, = subvocals, diphthong, cognate letters, linguals 4. Give four substitutes for caret 'u.' 5. Give two rules for spelling words with final 'e.' Name two exceptions = under each rule. 6. Give two uses of silent letters in spelling. Illustrate each. 7. Define the following prefixes and use in connection with a word: bi, = dis, mis, pre, semi, post, non, inter, mono, sup. 8. Mark diacritically and divide into syllables the following, and name = the sign that indicates the sound: card, ball, mercy, sir, odd, cell, rise, = blood, fare, last. 9. Use the following correctly in sentences: cite, site, sight, fane, = fain, feign, vane, vain, vei n, raze,! raise, rays. 10. Write 10 words frequently mispronounced and indicate pronunciation = by use of diacritical marks and by syllabication. Geography (Time, one hour) 1 What is climate? Upon what does climate depend? 2. How do you account for the extremes of climate in Kansas? 3. Of what use are rivers? Of what use is the ocean? 4. Describe the mountains of North America. 5. Name and describe the following: Monrovia, Odessa, Denver, Manitoba, Hecla, Yukon, St. Helena, Juan Fernandez, Aspinwall and Orinoco. 6. Name and locate the principal trade centers of the U.S. 7. Name all the republics of Europe and give the capital of each. 8. Why is the Atlantic Coast colder than the Pacific in the same = latitude? 9. Describe the process by which the water of the ocean returns to the = sources of rivers. 10. Describe the movements of the earth. Give the inclination of the = earth. =20 Notice that the exam took FIVE HOURS to complete. Gives the saying "he = only had an 8th grade education" a whole new meaning! Answers will not be = provided. ------=_NextPart_000_01CF_01C5CEB3.F43CF2B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
GRADUATION IN 1895

What it took to get an=20 8th = grade education in=20 1895

Remember when grandparents = and=20 great-grandparents stated that they only had = an

8th grade education? Well, check = this out.=20 Could any of us have passed the 8th

grade in=20 1895?

This is the eighth-grade final exam from = 1895 in=20 Salina, Kansas, USA. It was taken

from the original document = on file at=20 the Smokey Valley Genealogical Society and

Library in = Salina, KS, and reprinted by the Salina=20 Journal.

8th Grade Final Exam: = Salina, KS - 1895

 

Grammar (Time, one hour)

1. Give nine rules for the = use of=20 capital letters.

2. Name the parts of speech = and define=20 those that have no modifications.

3. Define verse, stanza and=20 paragraph

4. What are the principal = parts of a=20 verb? Give principal parts of"lie,""play," = and

"run.

5. Define case; Illustrate = each=20 case.

6. What is punctuation? Give = rules for=20 principal marks of punctuation.

7-10. Write a composition of = about 150=20 words and show therein that you

understand the practical use = of the=20 rules of grammar.

Arithmetic (Time, 1.25 hours)

1. Name and define the = Fundamental Rules=20 of Arithmetic.

2. A wagon box is 2 ft. = deep, 10 feet=20 long, and 3 ft. wide. How many bushels of

wheat will it=20 hold?

3. If a load of wheat weighs = 3942 lbs.,=20 what is it worth at 50cts/bushel, deducting

1050 lbs. for=20 tare?

4. District No 33 has a = valuation of=20 $35,000. What is the necessary levy to = carry

on a school seven months at = $50 per=20 month, and have $104 for incidentals?

5. Find the cost of 6720 = lbs. coal at=20 $6.00 per ton.

6. Find the interest of = $512.60 for 8=20 months and 18 days at 7 percent.

7. What is the cost of 40 = boards 12=20 inches wide and 16 ft. long at $20 per

metre?

8. Find bank discount on = $300 for 90=20 days (no grace) at 10 percent.

9. What is the cost of a = square farm at=20 $15 per acre, the distance of which is

640 = rods?

10. Write a Bank Check, a = Promissory=20 Note, and a Receipt.

U.S. = History=20 (Time, 45 minutes)

1. Give the epochs into = which U.S.=20 History is divided.

2. Give an account of the discovery of=20 America by Columbus.

3. Relate the causes and = results of the=20 Revolutionary War.

4. Show the territorial growth of the=20 United=20 States.

5. Tell what you can of the history of=20 Kansas.

6. Describe three of the = most prom inent=20 battles of the Rebellion.

7. Who were the following: Morse, Whitney,=20 Fulton, Bell, Lincoln, Penn, and

Howe?

8. Name events connected = with the=20 following dates: 1607, 1620, 1800, 1849,

1865.

Orthography (Time, one hour)

1. What is meant by the = following:=20 Alphabet, phonetic, orthography, etymology,

syllabication

2. What are elementary = sounds? How=20 classified?

3. What are the following, = and give=20 examples of each: Trigraph, subvocals,

diphthong, cognate letters,=20 linguals

4. Give four substitutes for = caret=20 'u.'

5. Give two rules for = spelling words=20 with final 'e.' Name two exceptions under

each = rule.

6. Give two uses of silent = letters in=20 spelling. Illustrate each.

7. Define the following = prefixes and use=20 in connection with a word: bi, dis, mis,

pre, = semi, post,=20 non, inter, mono, sup.

8. Mark diacritically and = divide into=20 syllables the following, and name the sign

that indicates the sound: = card, ball,=20 mercy, sir, odd, cell, rise, blood, fare, = last.

9. Use the following = correctly in=20 sentences: cite, site, sight, fane, fain, = feign,

vane, = vain, vei=20 n, raze,! raise, rays.

10. Write 10 words = frequently=20 mispronounced and indicate pronunciation by = use

of diacritical marks and by=20 syllabication.

Geography (Time, one hour)

1 What is climate? Upon what = does=20 climate depend?

2. How do you account for the extremes of = climate in=20 Kansas?

3. Of what use are rivers? = Of what use=20 is the ocean?

4. Describe the mountains of = North America.

5. Name and describe the following:=20 Monrovia, Odessa, Denver, Manitoba,

Hecla, Yukon, St. Helena, Juan Fernandez, Aspinwall and=20 Orinoco.

6. Name and locate the principal trade = centers of the=20 U.S.

7. Name all the republics of = Europe and give the capital of=20 each.

8. Why is the Atlantic Coast colder than the Pacific in the same=20 latitude?

9. Describe the process by = which the=20 water of the ocean returns to the sources

of = rivers.

10. Describe the movements = of the earth.=20 Give the inclination of the earth.

 

Notice that the exam took = FIVE HOURS to=20 complete. Gives the saying "he only had

an 8th grade education" a whole new = meaning!=20 Answers will not be provided.

= ------=_NextPart_000_01CF_01C5CEB3.F43CF2B0-- ----__JWM__J237c.2f1cS.7de1M-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 12 08:51:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9CFok2i004036; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 08:51:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9CFobEM003856; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 08:50:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 08:50:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Originating-IP: [4.88.32.216] Mime-Version: 1.0 From: "gesrebspar juno.com" Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 15:48:50 GMT To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Ruination Day 2006 X-Mailer: Webmail Version 3.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <20051012.084910.23993.174919 webmail35.nyc.untd.com> X-ContentStamp: 1:1:2640378395 X-UNTD-OriginStamp: GUNT6dKCgH8aoKLPKyRSHkQeFMDf/wCnoW89BaNDVbuupaIl57ICdQ== X-UNTD-Peer-Info: 10.141.27.175|webmail35.nyc.untd.com|webmail35.nyc.untd.com|gesrebspar juno.com Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63754 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vortexians- Didn't our revolutionary War start in april 1775.? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 12 08:59:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9CFx5Da009378; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 08:59:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9CFx4r3009360; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 08:59:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 08:59:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051012112705.0462deb0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 11:58:23 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Fond memories of programming back in 1980 In-Reply-To: <434D29F9.5010205 pobox.com> References: <20051011213603.15A5ABB592 xprdmailfe25.nwk.excite.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20051011174917.0399a5b0 pop.mindspring.com> <434D29F9.5010205 pobox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63755 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >>Take the Y2K problem. As I said before, it was quite real. It was a >>financial disaster. Society was forced to spend billions of dollars in >>emergency repairs that should have been taken care of cheaply during >>routing maintenance 20 years earlier. > >I disagree. When you talk about "routine maintenance" in this context I >think you are imagining a world that did not exist. I was programming computers in 1978, and I assure you, 90% of the work was routing maintenance of existing COBOL programs. I wrote many date routines, such as input and Julian date conversions, and I made darn sure they would work past the year 2000. In many industries year-2000 dates were already in use. For example banks had records of 20- and 30-year mortgages and leases, which terminated after 2000. >The Y2K problems were entirely, or almost entirely, software problems. There were entirely software problems. I have never heard of a hardwired date routine. >"20 years earlier" than year 2000 was year 1980. Remember what things >were like? A typical personal computer was still an Apple ][ -- the Lisa >(remember the Lisa?) Personal computers have nothing to do with this problem. Most of them were fixed in the 1990s at little or no expense. In any programming language or system developed after 1990 it would have been difficult to cause a Y2K problem. You would have to write your own date routines instead of using the prepackaged ones, and you have to be both incompetent and inventive, because the routines in programming books included year-2000 features. Some of them worked for thousands of years in either direction, as I recall. They were used for astronomy and archaeology. >Now, what "routine maintenance" was going on in the software world? >Darn little, because almost nothing was "routine" in those days. EVERYTHING was routine! It was so predictable, I could write manuals blindfolded, and figure out most of the program by glancing at the data structures. > The only established software base with anything like a "routine" > associated with it was the IBM mainframe world, where the universe still > ran on COBOL and PL/1. In 1980 trillions of dollars of commerce in the US ran on COBOL. A huge chunk still does. Actually, COBOL is a lot better for business apps than C++, in my opinion. C++ is the third most popular language, and COBOL is #13, but it is gaining. >Most of our software today seems to be written in C. Remember C in >1980? 6 character variable names on globals (that's right, just six) . . . Yup. A real nightmare. That's why I preferred COBOL or Pascal. >large C program to work _at_ _all_ was a major challenge in those days; >worrying about how well it would work 20 years later was totally outside >the picture. As I said, banking software actually did have to work with Y2K dates back then. So did computers in many industries with long-term inventory and projects, such as building houses or bridges, or leasing farm equipment. >Asserting that "routine maintenance" of software in 1980 should have >included fixing Y2K problems is a little absurd, I think. It did include that, and I personally performed it. This was for things like municipal billing systems and first generation grocery scanners. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 12 09:02:02 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9CG1MjR011535; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 09:01:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9CG1It7011486; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 09:01:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 09:01:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <4enk78$ateblf mxip29a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.97,207,1125892800"; d="scan'208"; a="366423727:sNHT593478854" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: OrionWorks Organization: OrionWorks To: CC: Subject: Re: "The Long Emergency" (book) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 11:00:46 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63756 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Stephen A. Lawrence Just a couple of side comments... ... > Now, what "routine maintenance" was going on in the software world? > Darn little, because almost nothing was "routine" in those days. The > only established software base with anything like a "routine" > associated with it was the IBM mainframe world, where the universe > still ran on COBOL and PL/1. In my experience, within the mainframe world COBOL still rules - as does PL/1, particularly in certain academic institutions. > Everything else was barely more than > nascent, and what's more things were changing so fast that almost > nobody believed any software they wrote was still going to be in use > in 5 years, let alone 20 years! You plan for things you think may > actually happen; the idea that a piece of code written that year was > still going to be in use in the year 2000 seemed like an obvious > absurdity. ...and yet, as absurd as it might sound, that is precisely what DIDN'T happen in our shop. Back in the early 80s our techno geeks wrote a sophisticated File Handler database program based on IBM's MVS core operating system, all written in BAL - assembler language. That was when IBM was still willing to publish the source code to their OS. The database system our shop developed worked quite well, especially for its time, well ahead of most other storage retrieval systems. Of course, as the 1990's approached and new mainframe data base retrieval systems became more prevalent like, VSAM, IMS, followed by DB/2 it became obvious that the shop would have to eventually entire the old "file handler" system. The shop's worst fears revolved around the fact that huge chunks of the filer handler operating system contained "legacy code" no longer supported by IBM. Management created a five to seven year plan to convert all the current computer systems using File Handler over to VSAM, IMS! - and then to DB/2 within five years. Management "planning" was started back around 1985. It's 2005 and our shop STILL has actively used systems using File Handler. It's simply amazing how entrenched certain software systems can become within the mainframe world. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 12 09:03:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9CG2J9F012243; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 09:02:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9CG25Fw012080; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 09:02:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 09:02:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <434D3361.1030700 pobox.com> Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 12:01:37 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.10) Gecko/20050719 Fedora/1.7.10-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: spy chip vapper References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63757 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Alex Caliostro wrote: >> From: thomas malloy > > >> I've heard several people interviewed on C to C AM about this matter. >> The answer isn't to protest, see http://www.spychips.com/ , IMHO, >> there should be a way to expose these things to the right frequency >> pulse and fry them. There should be a good market for these zappers >> among the Black Helicopter crowd. > > > 2.5 GHz seems to work okay > > http://www.prisonplanet.com/022904rfidtagsexplode.html Whoops! Something bothered me after I read this article and I just went back and checked it. There are two things wrong here. (1) "Jackson's right eye burned in every case" ... but they stacked the bills in a single pile (they said so). $1000 in $20 bills is 50 bills -- that's a stack no thicker than a deck of cards. EVERY microwave oven I have ever used had hot spots, and (almost) ANYTHING you put in a microwave oven will get hot if there's nothing else in there to absorb the microwaves. So, someplace, the stack was going to get hot. If one of the oven's hot spots happened to be on Jackson's right eye, it would have heated that spot on EVERY BILL in the relatively thin stack and they all would have burned in that one place. So, by itself this proves nothing about the money. (2) Look at the bills in the photo. They are NOT new bills. They've got series 2001 bills mixed in with the series 2004 or 2005 bills. (The 2001 bills have a "frame" around Jackson's picture, the 2004 bills don't.) The bill was redesigned between those issues. I've looked over European notes, with chips and other electronic features, and the features are obvious; hold them up to the light and you can see them. I've looked over old and new American 20's and if they're putting chips in them they're hiding them very, very well. Do you believe they were already doing that with the 2001 bills? Note that there's no embedded antenna in any 20 I've looked at, and claims that it's all done with conductive ink ring a little hollow if we're talking about bills dating back to 2001 (which we are). The two bills with holes in them displayed in the second picture are both 2001 bills, not 2004. Finally, at the top of the page it says they only "pop" or "explode" in "certain microwaves". As I said already, ANYTHING will get hot or burn in a microwave if you try hard enough; all this proves is that a microwave oven containing only a stack of paper may be able to set the paper on fire. As one particularly dumb example of the "anything gets hot eventually" claim, I have exploded glass saltshakers in a microwave; the salt and the glass got hot, to the point where the glass was glowing orange. Furthermore, the glass shattered with a substantial "BANG!", spraying shards of glass and salt all over the inside of the oven. If I'd put a cup of water in the oven along with the saltshaker, the water would have absorbed enough microwaves to keep the intensity down, the saltshaker would have remained cool to the touch and I could have said, "Glass saltshakers don't absorb microwaves or get hot in a microwave oven" and most likely nobody would have challenged it... (Just for the record, it was a case of fumble-fingers, not lunacy, that led me to do that. It was a microwave/convection oven. The salt was caked, and I thought a good roasting in the convection oven would dry it sufficiently to cut down on the caking. So I programmed the oven to run in convection mode at high heat for 15 minutes and went into the next room with a book. It was after I heard the "BANG!" and looked at the resulting mess that I realized I'd mis-programmed the oven, and had set it to run full-blast microwaves into the poor saltshakers, rather than just blowing warm air over them. Oh, and I did, indeed, remember to leave the metal caps out of the oven -- there was nothing conductive present.) > > kinda damages your cash tho > > _____ > -alex > > _________________________________________________________________ > Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's > FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 12 09:03:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9CG0R2G010346; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 09:03:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9CFYrW8025210; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 08:34:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 08:34:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <005d01c5cf42$6b89a0a0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Cc: "Keith Nagel" Subject: Dam-iffy implications of Mizuno Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 08:34:22 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_005A_01C5CF07.BEBD12B0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63752 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_005A_01C5CF07.BEBD12B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This speculation reads much like Science-Fiction, but it is grounded on = the previously mentioned hypothetical implications (and interpretation) = of the Mizuno free-neutron experiment.... For the sake of argument (and realizing that this is FAR from certain), = let's consider that a possible implication of the Mizuno experiment is = that in nature there exists a sub-population of deuterons (which we can = call metastable) which will release a neutron with only the slightest = inducement - such as a rapidly changing magnetic field. The source of this metastable deuterium is not important for this - it = could be related to the Mills hydrino or not. The second (possible) = over-generalization to be made here is that we and Mizuno are dealing = with an NMR effect. If so then an RF component will more than substitute = for the cold temperature. If the Mizuno-effect were simply an NMR effect = aimed at this sub-population of deuterons, then the RF would be an very = adequate substitute and might even free-up a larger sub-population of = neutrons, assuming there is more than one spectrum - perhaps even a = range of metastable states. There is adequate (arguable) evidence for = this proposition. The population of this metastable species would be small in any event. = Otherwise it would have been noticed previously in medical MRI testing. = Actually there is anecdotal evidence that it has been noticed in MRI = testing (more on that later). If my numbers from this experiment are = accurate, then about one in every 10^18 deuterons could be metastable in = this lowest way (Mizuno-effect) for just a simple time-varying magnetic = field. Is this hopeless to commercialize, even if replicated and proven = to be absolutely true?=20 Yes, it is hopeless - but the more interesting question is what is the = minimum population which would be useful, and is there a range of = metastability, and how does one accomplish this NMR stripping, if such a = higher population exists? I suspect that the minimum level of = metastables for commercial use will be about one metastable in every = 10^12 to 10^13 normal deuterons. This is in a range where it would not = have been noticed previously. Here is why. First, let's emphasize that it all depends on whether the same effect = (free neutrons from magnetic spin-flipping) can coaxed out of bulk water = - where you have the much higher density but only 300 'normal' deuterons = per million hydrogen atoms. And then from that small population of = normal deuterons, the metastable population is taken.=20 All-in-all, if only Mizuno's numbers were used, there could be in the = neighborhood of 10^10 neutrons per Kg of water being processed - all = sounding rather hopeless at first, until one realizes that the flow = through a hydroelectric dam is immense and each neutron can convert a = cheap thorium 232 to valuable 233 etc. The average annual flow of the = Columbia river is 265,000 cubic feet or 7,000 tons per second.=20 IF (huge "if") there exists a more advanced process of freeing neutrons = via NMR techniques - then when sited at a hydroelectric dam and using a = much higher and rapidly fluctuating magnetic field of say 4 Tesla or = more, then the economics could 'conceivably look somewhat more enticing = - IF you own the dam and IF cheap HTSC magnets are on the horizon... and = IF the population of metastables is indeed above a threshold level which = is higher than Mizuno found using his under-powered cell.=20 Too many linked-together "ifs" for you? Well... suspend disbelief for a = moment long, and let me finish this premise before rolling back the eyes = in total incredulity. The neutron is so valuable a commodity, and the deuterium in water is so = ubiquitous and potentially cheap (if one does not have to separate the = deuterium out of bulk water), that there could be a window of = opportunity here for a commercial venture using free neutrons from bulk = water to breed valuable isotopes for medical, or power uses, or to sell = to the Pentagon. To cut to the chase, the crux of the economic issue is - can you produce = neutrons this way which are much cheaper than those produced in a = nuclear reactor? I wrote an essay some time back on the "most valuable = commodity on earth" ... (can't remember if I posted it to Vo or not) but = anyway, the free neutron ranks right up there, way ahead of diamonds and = gemstone, for instance, in terms of value per unit weight. Of course, that end-game payoff is a huge way off. First one must = replicate the experiment, and then, if successful - try to find ways to = do the same thing using much higher field-strength and NMR but at = ambient temperatures. This scenario is only mentioned at all in order to = push the understanding of whether or not there would be a possible = 'reward' for such efforts - the successful end-game... and 'fonly = such-and-such a population of metastables existed (therein is the = component of the argument bordering on SciFi ;-)=20 Lets see... rounding off the work-year to 8000+ hours, or 30,000,000 = seconds with downtime and say using the Columbia river flow or 10 = million Kg/second we have approx 3x10^14 Kg/year of water flow and over = 10^18 of potential free neutrons (based on the lower Mizuno numbers).... = not nearly enough... A Kg of free neutrons will convert approximately 230 Kg of thorium, = costing only about $40,000 into the fissile isotope, valued at maybe a = quarter billion. BUT the low percentage of potential metastables found = by Mizuno (even IF that is the accurate conclusion of what has been = found by him - and many very observant people would dispute that = conclusion) is about million times too few.=20 Are there more to be had by applying a little more NMR power?... or did = I loose your train-of-concentration back on the fourth "if"? Jones ------=_NextPart_000_005A_01C5CF07.BEBD12B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This speculation reads much like=20 Science-Fiction, but it is grounded on the previously mentioned = hypothetical=20 implications (and interpretation) of the Mizuno free-neutron=20 experiment....

For the sake of argument (and realizing that this = is FAR=20 from certain), let's consider that a possible implication of the Mizuno=20 experiment is that in nature there exists a sub-population of = deuterons=20 (which we can call metastable) which will release a neutron with only = the=20 slightest inducement - such as a rapidly changing magnetic = field.
 
The source of this metastable deuterium = is not=20 important for this - it could be related to the Mills hydrino or = not. The=20 second (possible) over-generalization to be made here is that we and = Mizuno are=20 dealing with an NMR effect. If so then an RF component will more than = substitute=20 for the cold temperature. If the Mizuno-effect were simply an NMR effect = aimed=20 at this sub-population of deuterons, then the RF would be an very = adequate=20 substitute and might even free-up a larger sub-population of neutrons, = assuming=20 there is more than one spectrum - perhaps even a range of = metastable=20 states. There is adequate (arguable) evidence for this = proposition.

The=20 population of this metastable species would be small in any event. = Otherwise it=20 would have been noticed previously in medical MRI testing. Actually = there is=20 anecdotal evidence that it has been noticed in MRI testing (more on that = later).=20 If my numbers from this experiment are accurate, then about one in every = 10^18=20 deuterons could be metastable in this lowest way (Mizuno-effect) for = just a=20 simple time-varying magnetic field. Is this hopeless to commercialize, = even if=20 replicated and proven to be absolutely true?
 
Yes, it is hopeless - but the more = interesting=20 question is what is the minimum population which would be useful, and is = there a=20 range of metastability, and how does one accomplish this NMR stripping, = if such=20 a higher population exists? I suspect that the minimum level of = metastables=20 for commercial use will be about one metastable in every 10^12 to=20 10^13 normal deuterons. This is in a range where it would not have = been=20 noticed previously. Here is why.

First, let's emphasize that it = all=20 depends on whether the same effect (free neutrons from magnetic = spin-flipping)=20 can coaxed out of bulk water - where you have the much higher density = but only=20 300 'normal' deuterons per million hydrogen atoms. And then from that = small=20 population of normal deuterons, the metastable population is taken.=20
 
All-in-all, if only Mizuno's numbers = were used,=20 there could be in the neighborhood of 10^10 neutrons per Kg of water = being=20 processed - all sounding rather hopeless at first, until one realizes = that the=20 flow through a hydroelectric dam is immense and each neutron can convert = a cheap=20 thorium 232 to valuable 233 etc. The average annual flow of the Columbia = river=20 is 265,000 cubic feet or 7,000 tons per second. 

IF = (huge=20 "if") there exists a more advanced process of freeing neutrons = via NMR=20 techniques - then when sited at a hydroelectric dam and using a = much higher=20 and rapidly fluctuating magnetic field of say 4 Tesla or more, then = the=20 economics could 'conceivably look somewhat more enticing - IF you own = the dam=20 and IF cheap HTSC magnets are on the horizon... and IF the = population of=20 metastables is indeed above a threshold level which is higher than = Mizuno found=20 using his under-powered cell.
 
Too many linked-together "ifs" for you? = Well...=20 suspend disbelief for a moment long, and let me finish this premise = before=20 rolling back the eyes in total incredulity.

The neutron is so = valuable a=20 commodity, and the deuterium in water is so ubiquitous and potentially = cheap (if=20 one does not have to separate the deuterium out of bulk = water), that=20 there could be a window of opportunity here for a commercial venture = using free=20 neutrons from bulk water to breed valuable isotopes for medical, or = power uses,=20 or to sell to the Pentagon.

To cut to the chase, the crux of the = economic=20 issue is - can you produce neutrons this way which are much cheaper than = those=20 produced in a nuclear reactor? I wrote an essay some time back on the = "most=20 valuable commodity on earth" ... (can't remember if I posted it to Vo or = not)=20 but anyway, the free neutron ranks right up there, way ahead of diamonds = and=20 gemstone, for instance, in terms of value per unit weight.
 
Of course, that end-game payoff is = a huge way=20 off. First one must replicate the experiment, and then, if successful = - try=20 to find ways to do the same thing using much higher field-strength and = NMR=20 but at ambient temperatures. This scenario is only mentioned at all in order to = push the=20 understanding of whether or not there would be a possible 'reward' for = such=20 efforts - the successful end-game... and 'fonly such-and-such a = population of=20 metastables existed (therein is the component of the argument = bordering on=20 SciFi ;-)
 
Lets see... rounding off the work-year = to 8000+=20 hours, or 30,000,000  seconds with downtime and say using the = Columbia=20 river flow or 10 million Kg/second we have approx 3x10^14 Kg/year = of water=20 flow and  over 10^18 of potential free neutrons (based on the lower = Mizuno=20 numbers).... not nearly enough...
 
A Kg of free neutrons will convert = approximately=20 230 Kg of thorium, costing only about $40,000 into the fissile = isotope,=20 valued at maybe a quarter billion. BUT the low percentage of = potential=20 metastables found by Mizuno (even IF that is the accurate = conclusion=20 of what has been found by him - and many very observant people = would=20 dispute that conclusion) is about million times too few.
 
Are there more to be had by applying a = little more=20 NMR power?... or did I loose your train-of-concentration back on the = fourth=20 "if"?
 
Jones
 
 

 ------=_NextPart_000_005A_01C5CF07.BEBD12B0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 12 09:38:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9CGbopp006290; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 09:38:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9CGbib2006228; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 09:37:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 09:37:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051012120010.042c0eb0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 12:36:20 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Fw: Holy Cow !!!!!! OT_ BUT WOW. In-Reply-To: <20051012.084035.23993.174735 webmail35.nyc.untd.com> References: <20051012.084035.23993.174735 webmail35.nyc.untd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63758 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Things like this graduation tests have appeared in many books and on the Internet. It is impressive, but not as impressive as it seems at first glance, and people often draw incorrect conclusions from it. Americans often look at Japanese college entrance exams and conclude that Japanese people must have incredible memories. The newspapers often claim that a Japanese high school grad knows more than an American who has been through four years of college. Since I have been through 4.5 years of college including one year in Japan when it was at the peak of postwar educational accomplishments and high SAT scores, and since I watch the Japanese national television news every night, I know from personal experience that this is bunk. The definitions, curricula and goals of the schools were different, and this gives you a false impression. Actually, based on 19th-century textbooks I have read, I suspect this is a high school graduation test, not a junior high test. But either way, you should not conclude from this that the average 14-year-old kid in 1895 could have answered this test in five hours or five days. For that matter, I could have done a pretty good job with this test at age 14, and most people reading this form probably could have too. Especially in the questions related to science and technology. Here are some things you have to keep in mind: 1. The curriculum was quite different. These questions were no surprise to the students; they have been studying these topics for years. "Studying" may be the wrong word. For the most part they had been cramming this stuff into their heads with little or no analysis or independent thinking, and they could regurgitate it by rote. This is the situation in Japan today. The students know lots of facts but they are incapable of solving simple problems independently, and they know nothing about subjects which everyone knows are not be included on the college entrance exams, such as when WWII occurred, or who won. 2. The curriculum in 1895 did not cover many of the things that my daughters learned in high school such as advanced chemistry (including nuclear physics), biology, DNA, programming and electronics -- because the subjects were not discovered yet. 3. Most people in 1895 did not attend high school. Only an elite fraction of the population went, and for most of that small group, this was the end of their education, so they had to pack into it much that is now covered in college. In other words, the group of people who took this test were roughly equivalent to graduates from the top third of US universities today. If you gave that group a test as rigorous as this, and you limited the questions to subjects that are covered in most high school curricula, their scores would be as good as the kids back in 1895. (Actually they would probably do better if you could control for independent thinking.) 4. Some of these questions would be difficult for us mainly because they use obsolete weights and measures, such as feet and bushels. I graduated in 1976 and I never bothered to learn anything other than the metric (SI) system. The question about "bushels in wagons" is dead simple in SI units. Many kids nowadays master much more complicated math than this, such as calculus. 5. Many of these questions relate to obsolete skills. We do not write our own bank checks or promissory notes from scratch anymore. (That is to say, we do not write out on a blank piece of paper, "Pay to the order of . . .") If we did, we would all know how to word checks. We have other, equally obscure skills. When I was 14, I knew how to draft a program for a BASIC compiler, and I knew how to cram programs into 4 KB of core memory. That was a lot more complicated than writing a promissory note, and it is not something kids mastered in 1895, or 2005, for that matter. I will grant, many useful skills have atrophied over the last hundred years, and kids are less competent in some ways. But most of these are physical skills such as hands-on repairing of equipment, operating machinery, taming animals, hiking, or performing experiments, rather than mental gymnastics. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 12 09:58:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9CGvtOL017580; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 09:58:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9CGvrXF017550; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 09:57:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 09:57:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051012124249.04400a50 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 12:56:51 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Convection Mill Heat Engine In-Reply-To: <410-2200510312141255650 earthlink.net> References: <410-2200510312141255650 earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_5781406==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63759 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_5781406==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Frederick Sparber wrote: >Wow. 1/10,000 deg F sensitivity. :-) > >http://www.globalwarmingsolutions.co.uk/joules_sketch_of_thermoscope_and_references.htm This describes J. P. Joule's thermoscope. Joule was genius in many ways, not least of which was in designing elegant, simple and incredibly accurate and precise instruments. With some of his calorimeters and thermometers, he could have easily have measured the excess heat from cold fusion experiments. This is why it is so absurd that many skeptics today question modern calorimetry. Martin Fleischmann points out that the instruments he uses were developed by Joule. The only difference is that temperature and power are recorded automatically by a computer instead of manually in a notebook. Many other 19th-century instruments that achieved wonderful precision that would be a big challenge even today. William Thompson, the guy Joule was writing to in this letter (I assume), developed the mirror galvanometer for the transatlantic cable. After the second table was laid, the two cables were temporarily spliced together in Newfoundland for an experiment. The mirror galvanometer could detect a signal sent from Ireland to Newfoundland and back, over 4000 miles, which was generated with a battery made from a "lady's silver thimble containing a few drops of acid." - Jed --=====================_5781406==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Frederick Sparber wrote:

Wow. 1/10,000  deg F sensitivity.   :-)
 
http://www.globalwarmingsolutions.co.uk/joules_sketch_of_thermoscope_and_references.htm

This describes J. P. Joule's thermoscope.

Joule was genius in many ways, not least of which was in designing elegant, simple and incredibly accurate and precise instruments. With some of his calorimeters and thermometers, he could have easily have measured the excess heat from cold fusion experiments. This is why it is so absurd that many skeptics today question modern calorimetry. Martin Fleischmann points out that the instruments he uses were developed by Joule. The only difference is that temperature and power are recorded automatically by a computer instead of manually in a notebook.

Many other 19th-century instruments that achieved wonderful precision that would be a big challenge even today. William Thompson, the guy Joule was writing to in this letter (I assume), developed the mirror galvanometer for the transatlantic cable. After the second table was laid, the two cables were temporarily spliced together in Newfoundland for an experiment. The mirror galvanometer could detect a signal sent from Ireland to Newfoundland and back, over 4000 miles, which was generated with a battery made from a "lady's silver thimble containing a few drops of acid."

- Jed
--=====================_5781406==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 12 11:42:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9CIg1hX026955; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 11:42:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9CIfw77026891; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 11:41:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 11:41:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=Wb/0H2j8o2GJWHqf/M6li6tQloRMtMWEpagHjP0VS4xoyumeifrejtwLrNqTPCK+; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200510312174043850 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Convection Mill Heat Engine Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 12:40:43 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940a68e299739f6e5367a247699c25d27c4350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.126 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63760 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII And you say 8th graders are smarter today? :-) Frederick Jed the Oracle from the land of the Free and the home of the Braves wrote: Frederick Sparber wrote: Wow. 1/10,000 deg F sensitivity. :-) http://www.globalwarmingsolutions.co.uk/joules_sketch_of_thermoscope_and_references.htm This describes J. P. Joule's thermoscope. Joule was genius in many ways, not least of which was in designing elegant, simple and incredibly accurate and precise instruments. With some of his calorimeters and thermometers, he could have easily have measured the excess heat from cold fusion experiments. This is why it is so absurd that many skeptics today question modern calorimetry. Martin Fleischmann points out that the instruments he uses were developed by Joule. The only difference is that temperature and power are recorded automatically by a computer instead of manually in a notebook. Many other 19th-century instruments that achieved wonderful precision that would be a big challenge even today. William Thompson, the guy Joule was writing to in this letter (I assume), developed the mirror galvanometer for the transatlantic cable. After the second table was laid, the two cables were temporarily spliced together in Newfoundland for an experiment. The mirror galvanometer could detect a signal sent from Ireland to Newfoundland and back, over 4000 miles, which was generated with a battery made from a "lady's silver thimble containing a few drops of acid." - Jed ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
And you say 8th graders are smarter today?    :-)
 
Frederick
 
Jed the Oracle from the land of the Free and the home of the Braves wrote:
Frederick Sparber wrote:

Wow. 1/10,000  deg F sensitivity.   :-)
 
http://www.globalwarmingsolutions.co.uk/joules_sketch_of_thermoscope_and_references.htm

This describes J. P. Joule's thermoscope.

Joule was genius in many ways, not least of which was in designing elegant, simple and incredibly accurate and precise instruments. With some of his calorimeters and thermometers, he could have easily have measured the excess heat from cold fusion experiments. This is why it is so absurd that many skeptics today question modern calorimetry. Martin Fleischmann points out that the instruments he uses were developed by Joule. The only difference is that temperature and power are recorded automatically by a computer instead of manually in a notebook.

Many other 19th-century instruments that achieved wonderful precision that would be a big challenge even today. William Thompson, the guy Joule was writing to in this letter (I assume), developed the mirror galvanometer for the transatlantic cable. After the second table was laid, the two cables were temporarily spliced together in Newfoundland for an experiment. The mirror galvanometer could detect a signal sent from Ireland to Newfoundland and back, over 4000 miles, which was generated with a battery made from a "lady's silver thimble containing a few drops of acid."

- Jed
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 12 12:30:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9CJTfYa029932; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 12:29:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9CJTcr2029884; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 12:29:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 12:29:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051012152346.045f4d70 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 15:29:02 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Convection Mill Heat Engine In-Reply-To: <410-2200510312174043850 earthlink.net> References: <410-2200510312174043850 earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63761 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick Sparber wrote: >And you say 8th graders are smarter today? :-) But not smarter than Joule or Thompson. Anyway, they did not go to school much so it is not a fair comparison. Joule had only two years of formal education starting at age 16. Thompson is somewhat overrated. He attended an elementary school starting at age 10. It was on the Glasgow University campus. This gave rise to the myth that he attended college at age 10. He did not become a full professor until he was 21. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 12 12:44:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9CJhcH3006226; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 12:43:53 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9CJhal6006185; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 12:43:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 12:43:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <434D674B.6000902 pobox.com> Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 15:43:07 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.10) Gecko/20050719 Fedora/1.7.10-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fond memories of programming back in 1980 References: <20051011213603.15A5ABB592 xprdmailfe25.nwk.excite.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20051011174917.0399a5b0@pop.mindspring.com> <434D29F9.5010205@pobox.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20051012112705.0462deb0@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20051012112705.0462deb0 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63762 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > >>> Take the Y2K problem. As I said before, it was quite real. It was a >>> financial disaster. Society was forced to spend billions of dollars >>> in emergency repairs that should have been taken care of cheaply >>> during routing maintenance 20 years earlier. >> >> >> I disagree. When you talk about "routine maintenance" in this >> context I think you are imagining a world that did not exist. > > > I was programming computers in 1978, Me too. > and I assure you, 90% of the work was routing maintenance of existing > COBOL programs. OK, OK, I should know better than to argue with you. I was never part of the COBOL world so I have a distorted view of it. In the part of the universe where I worked _nothing_ was routine. > I wrote many date routines, such as input and Julian date conversions, > and I made darn sure they would work past the year 2000. In many > industries year-2000 dates were already in use. For example banks had > records of 20- and 30-year mortgages and leases, which terminated > after 2000. > > >> The Y2K problems were entirely, or almost entirely, software problems. > > > There were entirely software problems. I have never heard of a > hardwired date routine. > > >> "20 years earlier" than year 2000 was year 1980. Remember what >> things were like? A typical personal computer was still an Apple ][ >> -- the Lisa (remember the Lisa?) > > > Personal computers have nothing to do with this problem. Most of them > were fixed in the 1990s at little or no expense. In any programming > language or system developed after 1990 it would have been difficult > to cause a Y2K problem. You would have to write your own date routines > instead of using the prepackaged ones, and you have to be both > incompetent and inventive... Then Microsoft qualifies. Windows had some collection of Y2K problems which were fixed via last-minute service packs a few months before the big day. > , because the routines in programming books included year-2000 > features. Some of them worked for thousands of years in either > direction, as I recall. They were used for astronomy and archaeology. > > >> Now, what "routine maintenance" was going on in the software world? >> Darn little, because almost nothing was "routine" in those days. > > > EVERYTHING was routine! It was so predictable, I could write manuals > blindfolded, and figure out most of the program by glancing at the > data structures. > > >> The only established software base with anything like a "routine" >> associated with it was the IBM mainframe world, where the universe >> still ran on COBOL and PL/1. > > > In 1980 trillions of dollars of commerce in the US ran on COBOL. A > huge chunk still does. Actually, COBOL is a lot better for business > apps than C++, in my opinion. C++ is the third most popular language, > and COBOL is #13, but it is gaining. #13?? There are 9 computer languages more popular than COBOL and less popular than C++? And there are two others more popular than C++? I feel ignorant. I can't even think of 13 languages in common use today. After Fortran, Java, C/C++, and Cobol I kind of run out of steam. Let's see, there's Ada, is that still in common use? ... um... >> Most of our software today seems to be written in C. Remember C in >> 1980? 6 character variable names on globals (that's right, just >> six) . . . > > > Yup. A real nightmare. That's why I preferred COBOL or Pascal. Unfortunately Pascal self-destructed. Which really was too bad; it was turning into a nice language before the big implosion in ... um ... 1986, I think. The Pascal standards meeting abruptly did an about-face and threw out all the extensions which had been under discussion for months, and returned the language to its roots, leaving Pascal as a largely useless accademic language, rather than evolving it into a SIL which could compete head-on with C, as we had expected. Very odd. I wasn't at the meeting where it happened, but I worked with someone on the committee and I heard about it shortly afterwards. It was quite a shocker for us, actually, since we were a Mac shop at the time, and we were pretty heavily tied into the Pascal world. He said it was a "feeding frenzy" -- they reviewed the list of proposed extensions, one by one, and killed every one. After that meeting, it was immediately obvious that the language was dead, of course -- you couldn't even write a storage manager in un-extended Pascal; in consequence, every serious commercial implementation included non-standard extensions, which meant that nearly every implementation was different. If it was to remain a serious contender, that _had_ to get fixed, by extending the standard definition of the language; with the conscious decision not to extend it, the committee killed the language. By the way, it's tough to write a storage manager without casts, and it's tough to write a "printf" replacement without varargs; those were two of the long-anticipated extensions which were unexpectedly killed. I don't recall all the others. >> large C program to work _at_ _all_ was a major challenge in those >> days; worrying about how well it would work 20 years later was >> totally outside the picture. > > > As I said, banking software actually did have to work with Y2K dates > back then. So did computers in many industries with long-term > inventory and projects, such as building houses or bridges, or leasing > farm equipment. > > >> Asserting that "routine maintenance" of software in 1980 should have >> included fixing Y2K problems is a little absurd, I think. > > > It did include that, and I personally performed it. This was for > things like municipal billing systems and first generation grocery > scanners. In 1980? I thought they came later. Oh, well, my memory isn't what it used to be (and in fact it never was, either). > > - Jed > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 12 13:17:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9CKHBRV028762; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 13:17:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9CKH7dC028577; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 13:17:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 13:17:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051012160048.041f5110 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 16:11:42 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Fond memories of programming back in 1980 In-Reply-To: <434D674B.6000902 pobox.com> References: <20051011213603.15A5ABB592 xprdmailfe25.nwk.excite.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20051011174917.0399a5b0 pop.mindspring.com> <434D29F9.5010205 pobox.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20051012112705.0462deb0 pop.mindspring.com> <434D674B.6000902 pobox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63763 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >>You would have to write your own date routines instead of using the >>prepackaged ones, and you have to be both incompetent and inventive... > >Then Microsoft qualifies. Windows had some collection of Y2K problems >which were fixed via last-minute service packs a few months before the big day. I rest my case. >#13?? There are 9 computer languages more popular than COBOL and less >popular than C++? > >And there are two others more popular than C++? Apparently. According to this web site: http://www.developer.com/lang/article.php/3390001 It surprised me. >Unfortunately Pascal self-destructed. Which really was too bad; it was >turning into a nice language before the big implosion in ... um ... 1986, >I think. . . . Borland's extended version lived on. And lives now. See: http://www.borland.com/us/products/delphi/index.html It's lovely. >>It did include that, and I personally performed it. This was for things >>like municipal billing systems and first generation grocery scanners. > >In 1980? I thought they came later. NCR had 'em in 1980. The first scanner was installed by RCA in a Cincinnati in 1970. The standard barcode Uniform Product Code was adopted in 1974, and the first grocery item, a packet of gum, was scanned by an NCR register in 1974. That part I remembered. For the rest, see: http://www.cnn.com/TECH/computing/9907/08/1970.idg/ - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 12 13:55:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9CKsluv020377; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 13:55:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9CKsiS0020330; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 13:54:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 13:54:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: chip zapping Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 15:54:23 -0500 Message-ID: <001901c5cf6f$2128d210$5c5e10ac eDentsply.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63764 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A gauss meter at the checkout counter of your choice could save you a bunch of time figuring out how much EMF is recommended to overload them. Someone has most likely already done the DOE... -john -----Original Message----- From: thomas malloy [mailto:temalloy metro.lakes.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2005 1:51 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: chip zapping John Steck wrote; Not to promote insurgent behavior, but a well placed frequency 'bomb' could easily sanitize an entire section of Wal-Mart at one time. Essentially that's all that happens at the register when they swipe your purchase over the electromagnet... These devices are very sensitive to overload. I would be very surprised if clothing tags survive a single washer/drier cycle. I have no interest in monkey wrenching any corporation's store. As for nuking currency, that's got to be against the law. In any case, I'd sooner spend them. OTOH, the nuking experiment that Prison Planet did, has demonstrated that while these chips might be quite resilient, I'd be surprised if either the washer or dryer destroyed them, an EMF over load is quite another matter. If I wanted to get to the bottom of this, I'd need a reader and a source of microwaves, just enough power to fry the chip, not enough to set the material that it is embeded in on fire. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 12 13:55:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9CKssrX020489; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 13:55:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9CKspq2020453; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 13:54:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 13:54:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: Compact Flourecent Lighting Big In Italy Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 15:54:23 -0500 Message-ID: <001401c5cf6f$2099d880$5c5e10ac eDentsply.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0015_01C5CF45.37C3D080" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: <018701c5cf15$07c2ffd0$a4b1e118 D54BYG11> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63765 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C5CF45.37C3D080 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable They have caught on in a big way in my house too. Where I used to have = 5 x 60 watt bulbs burning all night to light up the house outside (lost that argument many years ago) I now have 5 x 13 watt (60 watt equivalent) = bulbs doing the job. Menards (a midwest home improvement chain) sells a nice = one that has a warm yellow light that turns on almost instantly (about 1/2-1 = sec for the ballast to fire up). A 4 pack will set you back $8-9. =20 Can't say enough nice things about them. -john =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: John Coviello [mailto:johnwc patmedia.net]=20 Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2005 5:09 AM To: Vortex Subject: Compact Flourecent Lighting Big In Italy I just returned from Italy and can report that compact fluorescent = lighting has caught on in a big way there. It is so ubiquitous that I didn't = even notice it at first. A lot of restaurants and hotels are using compact fluorescent lighting throughout. The compact fluorescent lights were available in all stores. =20 =20 Gasoline was selling for between $1.25 and $1.50 a litter. Which works = out to $5.50 to $7.00 a gallon after the conversions from liters to gallons = and from Euros to Dollars are made. ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C5CF45.37C3D080 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
They=20 have caught on in a big way in my house too.  Where I used to have = 5 x 60=20 watt bulbs burning all night to light up the house outside (lost that = argument=20 many years ago) I now have 5 x 13 watt (60 watt equivalent) bulbs doing = the=20 job.  Menards (a midwest home improvement chain) sells a nice one = that has=20 a warm yellow light that turns on almost instantly (about 1/2-1 sec = for the=20 ballast to fire up).  A 4 pack will set you back = $8-9.
 
Can't=20 say enough nice things about them.  -john
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: John Coviello=20 [mailto:johnwc patmedia.net]
Sent: Wednesday, October 12, = 2005 5:09=20 AM
To: Vortex
Subject: Compact Flourecent Lighting = Big In=20 Italy

I just returned from Italy and can report that = compact=20 fluorescent lighting has caught on in a big way there.  It is so = ubiquitous=20 that I didn't even notice it at first.  A lot of restaurants and = hotels are=20 using compact fluorescent lighting throughout.  The compact = fluorescent=20 lights were available in all stores. 
 
Gasoline was selling for between $1.25 and $1.50 = a=20 litter.  Which works out to $5.50 to $7.00 a gallon after the = conversions=20 from liters to gallons and from Euros to Dollars are=20 made.
------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C5CF45.37C3D080-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 12 14:23:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9CLMXGk004514; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 14:22:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9CLMJkr004219; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 14:22:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 14:22:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 15:23:30 -0600 From: Ron Wormus To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Interesting Paper on Climate Change Science Message-ID: <32654109.1129130610 localhost> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.2.1 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="==========32658212==========" Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <-Bcs4B.A.pBB.E6XTDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63766 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --==========32658212========== Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline This is a really interesting article describing the origins of much of the climate change hype. The science of the original "hockey stick" article just sounds abysmal. http://www.uoguelph.ca/~rmckitri/research/Climate_L.pdf --==========32658212========== Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline ArialThis is a really = interesting article describing the origins of much of the = climate change hype. The science of the original "hockey = stick" article just sounds abysmal.=20 http://www.uoguelph.ca/~rmckitri/research/Climate_L.pdf --==========32658212==========-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 12 15:15:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9CMEB3m004909; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 15:14:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9CME5Xa004752; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 15:14:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 15:14:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=kdLXS/Lq90bn1vlvhzQuMX8Kaf7qI/tJcpHWLe7kZIk5HrvdaMRIJuSEFSztUyOk; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200510312211218500 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Spin Induced Deuteron Stripping in D2O? Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 16:12:18 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9406422c3e6f93cf301542d976887df84ce350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.26 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63767 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Possible at lower B Fields? http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=3173067&dopt=Abstract Ewy CS, Ackerman JJ, Balaban RS. Department of Chemistry, Washington University, St. Louis, Missouri 63130. "Nuclear magnetic resonance imaging of deuterium is demonstrated in cat brain in vivo and in situ at 4.7 T magnetic field strength. Images were acquired at 4-5% deuterium enrichment, using D2O as a nuclear spin label, with as little as 10-s time resolution. This suggests the potential application of D2O as an exogenous MRI label for quantitative flow imaging or contrast enhancement. The efficient quadrupolar relaxation mechanism of the deuterium nuclide results in a short ca. 250 ms spin-lattice relaxation time (T1). This allows for rapid signal averaging, thus increasing signal-to-noise in the deuterium image. Additionally, three widely dispersed deuterium spin-spin relaxation times (T2) are observed of ca. 10, 40, and 400 ms which provide high compartmental image contrast, thus yielding information of physiological as well as anatomical interest. T2-weighted deuterium cerebral images are presented showing marked tissue relaxation discrimination." http://www.portup.com/~dfount/proton.htm "The proton precession magnetometer operates on the principal that the protons in all atoms are spinning on an axis aligned with the magnetic field. Ordinarily, protons tend to line up with the earth's magnetic field. When subjected to an artificially-induced magnetic field, the protons will align themselves with the new field. When this new field is interrupted, the protons return to their original alignment with the earth's magnetic field. As they change their alignment, the spinning protons precess, or wobble, much as a spinning top does as it slows down. The frequency at which the protons precess is directly proportional to the strength of the earth's magnetic field. This is the Proton Gyromagnetic Ratio, equal to .042576 Hertz / nanoTesla. For example, in an area with a field strength of 57,780 nT (such as my home), the frequency of precession would be approximately 2460 Hz." ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Possible at lower B Fields?
 
 
 
Ewy CS, Ackerman JJ, Balaban RS.

Department of Chemistry, Washington University, St. Louis, Missouri 63130.

"Nuclear magnetic resonance imaging of deuterium is demonstrated in cat brain in vivo and in situ at 4.7 T magnetic field strength. Images were acquired at 4-5% deuterium enrichment, using D2O as a nuclear spin label, with as little as 10-s time resolution. This suggests the potential application of D2O as an exogenous MRI label for quantitative flow imaging or contrast enhancement. The efficient quadrupolar relaxation mechanism of the deuterium nuclide results in a short ca. 250 ms spin-lattice relaxation time (T1). This allows for rapid signal averaging, thus increasing signal-to-noise in the deuterium image. Additionally, three widely dispersed deuterium spin-spin relaxation times (T2) are observed of ca. 10, 40, and 400 ms which provide high compartmental image contrast, thus yielding information of physiological as well as anatomical interest. T2-weighted deuterium cerebral images are presented showing marked tissue relaxation discrimination."
 
"The proton precession magnetometer operates on the principal that the protons in all atoms are spinning on an axis aligned with the magnetic field. Ordinarily, protons tend to line up with the earth's magnetic field. When subjected to an artificially-induced magnetic field, the protons will align themselves with the new field. When this new field is interrupted, the protons return to their original alignment with the earth's magnetic field. As they change their alignment, the spinning protons precess, or wobble, much as a spinning top does as it slows down. The frequency at which the protons precess is directly proportional to the strength of the earth's magnetic field. This is the Proton Gyromagnetic Ratio, equal to .042576 Hertz / nanoTesla. For example, in an area with a field strength of 57,780 nT (such as my home), the frequency of precession would be approximately 2460 Hz."
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 12 16:56:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9CNtU4q023765; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 16:55:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9CNtHkE023685; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 16:55:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 16:55:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=njnmKUH7QaWehyf9euftu6oQVGVcGTNiIV3v6VcVYf+vg/q1eAqEmK71KUs4OW8B; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200510312225326620 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Spin Induced Deuteron Stripping in D2O? Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 17:53:26 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9400d3581f10f2c65eab9df15b803e161b4350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.165.144 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63768 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII The idea was to use two perpendicular B fields "switching" to cause deuteron precession/collisions to knock off neutrons. If that poor cat had been injected with Boric Acid the neutron B-10 reaction n + 5B-10 ----> 2 He4 + 3 Li-7 + ~3.5 MeV could've fried his brain. ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 10/12/05 5:14:26 PM Subject: Re: Spin Induced Deuteron Stripping in D2O? Possible at lower B Fields? http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=3173067&dopt=Abstract Ewy CS, Ackerman JJ, Balaban RS. Department of Chemistry, Washington University, St. Louis, Missouri 63130. "Nuclear magnetic resonance imaging of deuterium is demonstrated in cat brain in vivo and in situ at 4.7 T magnetic field strength. Images were acquired at 4-5% deuterium enrichment, using D2O as a nuclear spin label, with as little as 10-s time resolution. This suggests the potential application of D2O as an ex! ogenous MRI label for quantitative flow imaging or contrast enhancement. The efficient quadrupolar relaxation mechanism of the deuterium nuclide results in a short ca. 250 ms spin-lattice relaxation time (T1). This allows for rapid signal averaging, thus increasing signal-to-noise in the deuterium image. Additionally, three widely dispersed deuterium spin-spin relaxation times (T2) are observed of ca. 10, 40, and 400 ms which provide high compartmental image contrast, thus yielding information of physiological as well as anatomical interest. T2-weighted deuterium cerebral images are presented showing marked tissue relaxation discrimination." http://www.portup.com/~dfount/proton.htm "The proton precession magnetometer operates on the principal that the protons in all atoms are spinning on an axis aligned with the magnetic field. Ordinarily, protons tend to line up with the earth's magnetic field. When subjected to an artificially-induced magnetic field, the protons will align themselves with the new field. When this new field is interrupted, the protons return to their original alignment with the earth's magnetic field. As they change their alignment, the spinning protons precess, or wobble, much as a spinning top does as it slows down. The frequency at which the protons precess is directly proportional to the strength of the earth's magnetic field. This is the Proton Gyromagnetic Ratio, equal to .042576 Hertz / nanoTesla. For example, in an area with a field strength of 57,780 nT (such as my home), the frequency of precession would be approximately 2460 Hz." ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
The idea was to use two perpendicular B fields "switching"
to cause deuteron precession/collisions to knock off neutrons.
 
If that poor cat had been injected with Boric Acid the neutron
B-10 reaction n + 5B-10 ---->  2 He4 + 3 Li-7 + ~3.5 MeV
could've fried his brain.
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 10/12/05 5:14:26 PM
Subject: Re: Spin Induced Deuteron Stripping in D2O?

Possible at lower B Fields?
 
 
 
Ewy CS, Ackerman JJ, Balaban RS.

Department of Chemistry, Washington University, St. Louis, Missouri 63130.

"Nuclear magnetic resonance imaging of deuterium is demonstrated in cat brain in vivo and in situ at 4.7 T magnetic field strength. Images were acquired at 4-5% deuterium enrichment, using D2O as a nuclear spin label, with as little as 10-s time resolution. This suggests the potential application of D2O as an ex! ogenous MRI label for quantitative flow imaging or contrast enhancement. The efficient quadrupolar relaxation mechanism of the deuterium nuclide results in a short ca. 250 ms spin-lattice relaxation time (T1). This allows for rapid signal averaging, thus increasing signal-to-noise in the deuterium image. Additionally, three widely dispersed deuterium spin-spin relaxation times (T2) are observed of ca. 10, 40, and 400 ms which provide high compartmental image contrast, thus yielding information of physiological as well as anatomical interest. T2-weighted deuterium cerebral images are presented showing marked tissue relaxation discrimination."
 
"The proton precession magnetometer operates on the principal that the protons in all atoms are spinning on an axis aligned with the magnetic field. Ordinarily, protons tend to line up with the earth's magnetic field. When subjected to an artificially-induced magnetic field, the protons will align themselves with the new field. When this new field is interrupted, the protons return to their original alignment with the earth's magnetic field. As they change their alignment, the spinning protons precess, or wobble, much as a spinning top does as it slows down. The frequency at which the protons precess is directly proportional to the strength of the earth's magnetic field. This is the Proton Gyromagnetic Ratio, equal to .042576 Hertz / nanoTesla. For example, in an area with a field strength of 57,780 nT (such as my home), the frequency of precession would be approximately 2460 Hz."
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 12 17:30:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9D0U7VX009824; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 17:30:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9D0U5l6009811; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 17:30:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 17:30:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <004501c5cf8d$35871230$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex-l" References: <410-2200510312225326620 earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Spin Induced Deuteron Stripping in D2O? Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 17:29:43 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0042_01C5CF52.88B35850" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <0d9QxB.A.PZC.NqaTDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63769 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0042_01C5CF52.88B35850 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Fred >The idea was to use two perpendicular B fields "switching" to cause = deuteron precession/collisions to knock off neutrons. If that poor cat = had been injected with Boric Acid the neutron B-10 reaction n + 5B-10 = ----> 2 He4 + 3 Li-7 + ~3.5 MeV could've fried his brain. Yes. There is an actual anecdote in the literature of free neutrons = showing up in MRI but this reference doesn't seem to go that far. A = google seach hasn't turned it up yet.=20 Dennis Letts patented a LENR cell based on this very idea, and = co-authored a paper with John Bockris on how the NMR frequencies of = Deuterium might be used to trigger the "cold fusion heat effect" in = Deuterated Palladium. The paper was peer reviewed and published in = FUSION TECHNOLOGY in 1994 : "Triggering of Heat and Sub-surface changes = in Pd-D Systems." (Bockris, Sundaresan, Letts, Minevski). Letts clearly demonstrated the effect in 1993 in the laboratories of = ENECO in Salt Lake City, in the presence of two PhD's: John Bockris and = Gale Thorne. He was able to demonstrate a connection between the = presence of a few milliwatts of RF at the appropriate frequencies and an = increases of several watts in the thermal output of Deuterated Palladium = systems but... get this ... he was never, thereafter, able to re-create = the effect despite much effort - and eventually he lost interest in the = NMR idea and moved on to other techniques. I wonder now, thinking about this episode of Letts in retrospect... if = what he did was to reuse his deuterium *too many times* till all of the = "metastable" population was used up ;-) Jones ------=_NextPart_000_0042_01C5CF52.88B35850 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Fred

>The idea was to use two = perpendicular B=20 fields "switching" to cause deuteron precession/collisions to knock off=20 neutrons. If that poor cat had been injected with Boric Acid the neutron = B-10=20 reaction n + 5B-10 ---->  2 He4 + 3 Li-7 + ~3.5 MeV  = could've fried=20 his brain.
 
Yes. There is an actual anecdote in the = literature of=20 free neutrons showing up in MRI but this reference doesn't seem to go = that far.=20 A google seach hasn't turned it up yet.
 
Dennis Letts patented a LENR cell based on this = very idea,=20 and  co-authored a paper with John Bockris on how the NMR = frequencies=20 of Deuterium might be used to trigger the "cold fusion heat effect" in=20 Deuterated Palladium.  The paper was peer reviewed and published in = FUSION=20 TECHNOLOGY in 1994 : "Triggering of Heat and Sub-surface changes in Pd-D = Systems."  (Bockris, Sundaresan, Letts,=20 Minevski).

Letts clearly demonstrated the effect in 1993 in=20 the laboratories of ENECO in Salt Lake City, in the presence of two = PhD's:=20 John Bockris and Gale Thorne.  He was able to demonstrate a=20 connection between the presence of a few milliwatts of RF at the=20 appropriate frequencies and an increases of several watts in = the thermal=20 output of Deuterated Palladium systems but... get this ... he was = never,=20 thereafter, able to re-create the effect despite much effort - and = eventually he=20 lost interest in the NMR idea and moved on to other = techniques.
 
I wonder now, thinking about this episode of = Letts in=20 retrospect... if what he did was to reuse his deuterium *too many times* = till=20 all of the "metastable" population was used up  ;-)
 
Jones
 

 
------=_NextPart_000_0042_01C5CF52.88B35850-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 12 19:03:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9D23BnL029303; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 19:03:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9D238Ra029274; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 19:03:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 19:03:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=kIGuwP8kjL+2tNBz2v1Yxj2rxdW1628mMHhIJkb5LEsoVC56h0XrAcd0M1Q2GGhy; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <411-22005104131151570 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Spin Induced Deuteron Stripping in D2O? Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 20:01:51 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940d00acfa9108313677664b331b50c8812350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.126 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63770 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Jones Beene wrote: > > Letts clearly demonstrated the effect in 1993 in the laboratories of ENECO in Salt Lake City, > in the presence of two PhD's: John Bockris and Gale Thorne. He was able to demonstrate a > connection between the presence of a few milliwatts of RF at the appropriate frequencies and > an increases of several watts in the thermal output of Deuterated Palladium systems but.. > get this ... he was never, thereafter, able to re-create the effect despite much effort - and > > eventually he lost interest in the NMR idea and moved on to other techniques. > I think "slow" B field direction change "switching" (magnet rotation) is preferable over energy-wasting RF. > > I wonder now, thinking about this episode of Letts in retrospect... if what he did was to reuse > his deuterium *too many times* till all of the "metastable" population was used up ;-) > Based on the "billion non-thermal"neutrons in one pulse of the Columbus II there must be "metastable" deuterons formed in nature. Heat-releasing agitation slowly kills the effect? ZPE pumping at low temperature brings it back? Frederick > > Jones ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Jones Beene wrote:
>
> Letts clearly demonstrated the effect in 1993 in the laboratories of ENECO in Salt Lake City, > in the presence of two PhD's: John Bockris and Gale Thorne.  He was able to demonstrate a > connection between the presence of a few milliwatts of RF at the appropriate frequencies and > an increases of several watts in the thermal output of Deuterated Palladium systems but..
> get this ... he was never, thereafter, able to re-create the effect despite much effort - and >
 > eventually he lost interest in the NMR idea and moved on to other techniques.
>
I think "slow" B field direction change "switching" (magnet rotation) is preferable over
energy-wasting RF.
>
> I wonder now, thinking about this episode of Letts in retrospect... if what he did was to reuse > his deuterium *too many times* till all of the "metastable" population was used up  ;-)
>
Based on the "billion non-thermal"neutrons in one pulse of the Columbus II there must be
"metastable" deuterons formed in nature. Heat-releasing agitation slowly kills the effect?
ZPE pumping at low temperature brings it back?
 
Frederick
>
> Jones
 
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 12 19:32:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9D2VgO0014840; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 19:31:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9D2Vclo014796; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 19:31:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 19:31:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <016a01c5cf9e$2f7ab340$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: , References: <411-22005104131151570 earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Spin Induced Deuteron Stripping in D2O? Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 19:31:15 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <2YNFhB.A.HnD.JccTDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63771 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick Sparber wrote: Based on the "billion non-thermal"neutrons in one pulse of the Columbus II there must be "metastable" deuterons formed in nature. Heat-releasing agitation slowly kills the effect? ZPE pumping at low temperature brings it back? Now there is the other interesting thought on the Mizuno neutrons - ZPE pumping at low temperature - and as mentioned before, there is already some well-developed ZPE/Dirac theory behind this idea of cryogenic mass-gain based on Robert Forward's ideas. Seems like we often look back to Forward.... ;-) Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 12 19:35:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9D2YV1l017764; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 19:34:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9D2YN50017649; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 19:34:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 19:34:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Message-ID: <434DC79A.3000404 iinet.net.au> Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 12:34:02 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Ruination Day 2006 References: <010e01c5cea7$7fdae780$6401a8c0 NuDell> <434C2B61.603DD37@centurytel.net> In-Reply-To: <434C2B61.603DD37 centurytel.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <6A-o-.A.iTE.uecTDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63772 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > Reading Jed's post about a popular book with the title: "The Long > Emergency: Surviving the Converging Catastrophes of the Twenty-First > Century" brought to mind another grim flash - a possible omen of > things to come - which crossed through the normal fog of cognitive > dissonance recently. > > Ever hear of "Ruination Day"...(April 14)? It's becoming one of those > mythical ominous Spring dates... kind of like the "Ides of March". The > soothsayer's warning to Julius Caesar, "Beware the Ides of March," has > forever imbued that date (Mar 15th) with a sense of foreboding, at > least to those who remember a little history or a little Shakespeare. > But in April, according to the Roman scheme, the Ides would fall on > the 13th, so there is nothing pernicious really about modern "Ides" as > a Lunar dating quirk, or is there? > > Ruination day is now a reverberating meme embodied in a catchy song by > Gillian Welch, and it refers to the real events of April 14th of the > recent past - including the sinking of the Titanic, the assassination > of Abraham Lincoln and the almost unbelievable start of the "Dust > Bowl" in Oklahoma and Kansas. > > Ruination day > And the sky was red. > I went back to work, > And back to bed. > > And the iceberg broke, > And the Okies fled, > And the Great Emancipator > Took a bullet in the back of the head... > > What is also a little striking about Ruination Day, depending on where > one happens to be living, is that next April marks the 100th > anniversary of the Great San Francisco Earthquake of 1906. It wasn't > exactly on the 14th, nor on the Ides of April, but instead a few days > later on April 18th. Close enough for government work and too close > for comfort, especially considering that the San Andreas Fault is > known as a 100 year fault. > > But you can't take that kind of thing, "100 years" literally, now can you? > > Jones > > I'm alright jack I'm in Australia. No fault lines, no hurricanes (locally), We don't have dust bowls, our soils blew away years ago, but Is that smoke I smell? I seem to remember that we have real big fires. In the northern hemisphere March and early April are a time for making war its not too cold to field troops and you've six months to prosecute the war and consolidate your victories before it gets cold again. Re earth quakes. When one goes you get the stress shifting along the global stress lines and across the plates. From Sumatra to Java in the east and west to Packistan. Expect it to propagate further through Iran, the middle east, the mediterranian, and so on. West it will go to the pacific islands where the fault lines get really bent and twisted. They may disipate the energy or they may free up the pacific plates a little. The stress can also transferr across the body of a plate. On the far side of those plates you have the central American coast and the San Andreas Fault. Quake proof architechure dates from 1000BC so you don't have an excuse if everything falls down. Notice that many mosques still stand in earth quake zones. Many mosques are based in design on the church of Saint Sophia in Turkey and it's rated to survive an 8.5 earthquake! The chinese earthquake design measures also got woven into mongol architechure and many mosques combine the two features. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 13 01:56:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9D8tsrK016755; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 01:56:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9D8tlnp016700; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 01:55:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 01:55:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=LRdivZOcIgvR8tGn575diErq9k12sH55TWJs0g2TzXIohceGqzUc204dn/Yen9Z9; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22005104137548690 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "Maddy" , "Lynda" , "Lew Witz" Subject: Gyroscopes - Everything you needed to know Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 02:54:08 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01BC2B74.89D1CCC0" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940c2780a75a5cf74d913fc11d3edb55e10350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.63 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63773 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BC2B74.89D1CCC0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII How do you make a Deuteron (in D2O) flip over?? http://www.gyroscopes.org/movies.asp ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

How do you make a Deuteron (in D2O) flip over??
 
 
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- ------=_NextPart_000_01BC2B74.89D1CCC0 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Gyroscopes - Everything you needed to know.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Description: Gyroscopes - Everything you needed to know.url Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Gyroscopes - Everything you needed to know.url" W0RFRkFVTFRdDQpCQVNFVVJMPWh0dHA6Ly93d3cuZ3lyb3Njb3Blcy5vcmcvbW92aWVzLmFzcA0K DQpbSW50ZXJuZXRTaG9ydGN1dF0NClVSTD1odHRwOi8vd3d3Lmd5cm9zY29wZXMub3JnL21vdmll cy5hc3ANCk1vZGlmaWVkPTIwNjNBQ0YwQ0FDRkM1MDE3RQ0K ------=_NextPart_000_01BC2B74.89D1CCC0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 13 02:08:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9D97c9E024485; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 02:07:53 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9D97aTk024447; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 02:07:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 02:07:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=ekAVNFBbVIng8+w+1vBfZqQ2n2LEwxk/w32p41p8Yc4MWQMZO7IklmtE41TJZ251; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22005104138620630 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Spin Induced Deuteron Stripping in D2O? Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 03:06:20 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940c1b54a822fe95bcb1a740c3d6a3c213c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.63 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63774 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII How do you make a Deuteron (in D2O) flip over?? http://www.gyroscopes.org/movies.asp ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

How do you make a Deuteron (in D2O) flip over??
 
 
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 13 03:28:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9DARFdQ024884; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 03:27:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9DARDmP024835; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 03:27:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 03:27:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=KynZSCvZE+agjHP8NW9zjce6O8BXZeC8pDyl7Fo84y6AInVwBG1Ic+NBRgan3TGb; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220051041392536300 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Spin Induced Deuteron Stripping in D2O? Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 04:25:36 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9404d1a4bf5e9c9f98a3adcf4a3a6458e88350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.202 Resent-Message-ID: <4ZhWnD.A.4DG.AajTDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63775 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII To answer the question , I guess you just flip the B field?? http://www.levitron.com/physics.html Is the LEVITRON Principle used elsewhere? "In recent decades, microscopic particles have been studied by trapping them with magnetic and/or electric fields. There are several sorts of traps. For example, neutrons can be held in a magnetic field generated by a system of coils. Neutrons are spinning magnetic particles, so the analogy of such a neutron trap with the LEVITRON® is close." Then there is the Levitron Perpetuator to keep it going: http://my.execpc.com/~rhoadley/magmore.htm Levitron Perpetuator: "This is for the person who does not want to see his Levitron stop spinning and floating in mid-air. It has an electromagnet in the base which keeps the top spinning indefinitely. It took a while to make mine work with my Super Levitron, and it will stay put for a max of about 15 minutes before something happens to make it fall off to the side. It's a bit tricky to set up. Costs about $60." > How do you make a Deuteron (in D2O) flip over?? > > http://www.gyroscopes.org/movies.asp > ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

To answer the question , I guess you just flip the B field??
 
 
"In recent decades, microscopic particles have been studied by trapping them with magnetic and/or electric fields. There are several sorts of traps. For example, neutrons can be held in a magnetic field generated by a system of coils. Neutrons are spinning magnetic particles, so the analogy of such a neutron trap with the LEVITRON® is close."

Then there is the Levitron Perpetuator to keep it going:

 
Levitron Perpetuator:
"This is for the person who does not want to see his Levitron stop spinning and floating in mid-air.  It has an electromagnet in the base which keeps the top spinning indefinitely.  It took a while to make mine work with my Super Levitron, and it will stay put for a max of about 15 minutes before something happens to make it fall off to the side.  It's a bit tricky to set up.  Costs about $60."
 
> How do you make a Deuteron (in D2O) flip over??
>
>
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 13 03:45:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9DAj3br001305; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 03:45:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9DAj0hG001271; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 03:45:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 03:45:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000d01c5cfe3$132ab920$0501a8c0 nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: References: <32654109.1129130610 localhost> Subject: Re: Interesting Paper on Climate Change Science Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 11:44:10 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01C5CFEB.6D1D5430" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63776 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C5CFEB.6D1D5430 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorry, but this article that R. Wormus refers to is just one straw man = argument after another. R. Wormus himself goes too far in his email = "This is a really interesting article describing the origins of much of = the climate change hype" No, it doesn't describe the origins of the = "hype" at all. Serious concerns that humans can affect the climate, = though their activities, predate the "hockey stick" graph by a long way. = The fact that it has been used politically (quote "The whole field of = global warming is currently suffering from the fact that it has become = politicized") is regrettable if it turns out to have been massaged, = consciously or unconsciously. The authors do actually make out a = reasonable case that Mann (responsible for the tree ring/ice core = analysis that led to the graph) used a dubious method by statistically = overweighting the growth spurt of Californian bristle cone pines in the = 20th century to infer an accelerating increase of global temperature. = The article itself states that this increase was probably due to the = increase in levels of CO2 in that time - no-one appears to be disputing = that CO2 levels are increasing -and not to a temperature increase. >From the article :- A referee of their work stated "McIntyre and = McKitrick present a cogent analysis of the global warming data.They do = not conclude that global warming is not a problem; they don't even = conclude that the medieval warm period really was there.All they do is = correct the analysis of prior workers." and also -: McIntyre:" Our research does not say that the earth's = atmosphere is not getting warmer. But the evidence from this famous = study does not allow us to draw any conclusions about its extent, = relative to the past thousand years, which remains as much a mystery now = as it was before Mann's article in 1998" Readers of Vortex will remember that my position has always been that, = although I will always attack global warming deniers, because they are = the most dangerous, my secondary position is that I will also attack = those who purport that climate science is good enough to accurately = predict the future. They are also dangerous! Vanity is present on both = sides of the argument. This means that if the Kyoto protocol predicts a = 2 degree rise in 50 years, I will say bollocks! The whole nub of the = global warming (or climate change, as I prefer to describe it) argument = should be that if we continue to alter the composition of the atmosphere = by pouring known greenhouse gases into it faster than natural processes = sequester it, then basic physics says that the climate dynamics will = change. The predictive science of the effects of feedback, positive and = negative, such as increased cloud cover, methane clathrate release, = increased atmospheric water vapour, decreased albedo etc has not been = experimentally verified, only computer modelled. Evidence from the far = past show that Earth has had many pseudo stable climate states. Some of = them may be better for us than the one we currently have, if we could = choose which one we end up with, but I don't think there are many who = would say that the transition periods between stable states was ever a = comfortable time - in fact such climate "flips" appear to be associated = with mass species extinctions. I don't think humans should risk setting = off one of those. Earth can do these climate flips all by itself with = natural variations in influences. It just seems insane to force one to = happen by our own actions. Nick Palmer ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C5CFEB.6D1D5430 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Sorry, but this article that R. = Wormus refers to=20 is just one straw man argument after another. R. Wormus himself goes too = far in=20 his email "This is a really interesting article describing the = origins of=20 much of the climate change hype" No, it = doesn't describe=20 the origins of the "hype" at all. Serious concerns that humans can = affect the=20 climate, though their activities, predate the "hockey stick" graph by a = long=20 way. The fact that it has been used politically (quote "The whole field = of global warming is currently suffering from the fact that=20 it has become politicized") is regrettable if it turns out to have been=20 massaged, consciously or unconsciously. The authors do actually make out = a=20 reasonable case that Mann (responsible for the tree ring/ice core = analysis that=20 led to the graph) used a dubious method by statistically overweighting = the=20 growth spurt of Californian bristle cone pines in the 20th century to = infer an=20 accelerating increase of global temperature.  The article itself = states=20 that this increase was probably due to the increase in levels of CO2 in = that=20 time - no-one appears to be disputing that  CO2 levels are = increasing -and=20 not to a temperature increase.

From the article :- A referee of their work stated = "McIntyre and=20 McKitrick present a cogent analysis of the global warming data.They do = not=20 conclude that global warming is not a problem; they don't even conclude = that the=20 medieval warm period really was there.All they do is correct the = analysis of=20 prior workers."

and also -:  McIntyre:" Our=20 research does not say that the earth=92s atmosphere is not getting = warmer. But the=20 evidence from this famous study does not allow us to draw any = conclusions about=20 its extent, relative to the past thousand years, which remains as much a = mystery=20 now as it was before Mann=92s article in 1998"

Readers of Vortex will remember that = my position=20 has always been that, although I will always attack global warming = deniers,=20 because they are the most dangerous, my secondary position is = that I=20 will also attack those who purport that climate science is good enough = to=20 accurately predict the future. They are also dangerous! Vanity is = present=20 on both sides of the argument. This means that if the Kyoto = protocol=20 predicts a 2 degree rise in 50 years, I will say bollocks! The whole nub = of the=20 global warming (or climate change, as I prefer to describe it) argument = should=20 be that if we continue to alter the composition of the atmosphere by = pouring=20 known greenhouse gases into it faster than natural processes sequester = it, then=20 basic physics says that the climate dynamics will change. The predictive = science=20 of the effects of feedback, positive and negative, such as = increased=20 cloud cover, methane clathrate release, increased atmospheric water = vapour,=20 decreased albedo etc has not been experimentally verified, only computer = modelled. Evidence from the far past show that Earth has had many = pseudo=20 stable climate states. Some of them may be better for us than the one we = currently have, if we could choose which one we end up = with, but I=20 don't think there are many who would say that the transition periods = between=20 stable states was ever a comfortable time - in fact such climate "flips" = appear=20 to be associated with mass species extinctions. I don't think humans = should risk=20 setting off one of those. Earth can do these climate flips all by itself = with=20 natural variations in influences. It just seems insane to force one to = happen by=20 our own actions.

Nick Palmer

 

 

 

 

------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C5CFEB.6D1D5430-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 13 04:15:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9DBFTXN013138; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 04:15:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9DBFSs9013127; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 04:15:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 04:15:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=ruccnT8oMRkZxcLwFGC553e/Lknfc1bcZChwusT0Iv5q9U9Xw2nO+aDNKP5XriXC; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200510413101358400 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Spin Induced Deuteron Stripping in D2O? Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 05:13:58 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940bfbd742fad48490186f3958075ce2954350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.252 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63777 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII With a stack of Neodymium disk magnets on a yoke rotating (up to 12,000 rpm) around a test tube filled with an antifreeze mix of D2O in Ethanol "Everclear", CF & neutrons perhaps? with occasional cooling in Acetone- Dry Ice (- 78 deg C) to see if ZPE pumping creates "metastable"low energy-stripping deuterons. http://www.indigo.com/magnets/neodymium-magnets.html ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

With a stack of Neodymium disk magnets on a yoke
rotating (up to 12,000 rpm) around a test tube filled with an antifreeze mix of D2O
in Ethanol "Everclear", CF & neutrons perhaps?  with occasional cooling
in Acetone- Dry Ice (- 78 deg C) to see if ZPE pumping creates "metastable"low energy-stripping deuterons.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 13 07:27:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9DEQZPP026901; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 07:26:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9DEQXkd026882; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 07:26:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 07:26:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 08:28:17 -0600 From: Ron Wormus To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Interesting Paper on Climate Change Science Message-ID: <7408187.1129192097 localhost> In-Reply-To: <000d01c5cfe3$132ab920$0501a8c0 nixlaptop> References: <000d01c5cfe3$132ab920$0501a8c0 nixlaptop> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.2.1 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="==========07425026==========" Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63778 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --==========07425026========== Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Nick , There is no question that warming is occurring now. Only if such temp excursions have also occurred in the recent past. I think that article makes a good case that Mann cooked the books and that NO due diligence was ever done on his work. It was just blindly accepted .."Nature" where it was published included. This is not good science. I think the data in question was from a sample of 4 trees and then he used a erroneous statistical method to bias the data...and what's more he did it intentionally because he did his graphs without the data and did not disclose it. Hardly above board as it should be. Full disclosure of data and methods are a prerequisite to good science. Especially when billion $ decisions are being made based on the data. You are correct ."Hype" is too strong a word in my email but it is too bad when the scientists fudge the data to prove their pre existing bias. Ron --On Thursday, October 13, 2005 11:44 AM +0100 Nick Palmer wrote: > > > Sorry, but this article that R. Wormus refers to is just > one straw man argument after another. R. Wormus himself > goes too far in his email "This is a really interesting > article describing the origins of much of the climate > change hype" No, it doesn't describe the origins of the > "hype" at all. Serious concerns that humans can affect > the climate, though their activities, predate the "hockey > stick" graph by a long way. The fact that it has been > used politically (quote "The whole field of global > warming is currently suffering from the fact that it has > become politicized") is regrettable if it turns out to > have been massaged, consciously or unconsciously. The > authors do actually make out a reasonable case that Mann > (responsible for the tree ring/ice core analysis that led > to the graph) used a dubious method by statistically > overweighting the growth spurt of Californian bristle > cone pines in the 20th century to infer an accelerating > increase of global temperature. The article itself > states that this increase was probably due to the > increase in levels of CO2 in that time - no-one appears > to be disputing that CO2 levels are increasing -and not > to a temperature increase. > > From the article :- A referee of their work stated > "McIntyre and McKitrick present a cogent analysis of the > global warming data.They do not conclude that global > warming is not a problem; they don't even conclude that > the medieval warm period really was there.All they do is > correct the analysis of prior workers." > > and also -: McIntyre:" Our research does not say that > the earth?s atmosphere is not getting warmer. But the > evidence from this famous study does not allow us to draw > any conclusions about its extent, relative to the past > thousand years, which remains as much a mystery now as it > was before Mann?s article in 1998" > > Readers of Vortex will remember that my position has > always been that, although I will always attack global > warming deniers, because they are the most dangerous, my > secondary position is that I will also attack those who > purport that climate science is good enough to accurately > predict the future. They are also dangerous! Vanity is > present on both sides of the argument. This means that if > the Kyoto protocol predicts a 2 degree rise in 50 years, > I will say bollocks! The whole nub of the global warming > (or climate change, as I prefer to describe it) argument > should be that if we continue to alter the composition of > the atmosphere by pouring known greenhouse gases into it > faster than natural processes sequester it, then basic > physics says that the climate dynamics will change. The > predictive science of the effects of feedback, positive > and negative, such as increased cloud cover, methane > clathrate release, increased atmospheric water vapour, > decreased albedo etc has not been experimentally > verified, only computer modelled. Evidence from the far > past show that Earth has had many pseudo stable climate > states. Some of them may be better for us than the one we > currently have, if we could choose which one we end up > with, but I don't think there are many who would say that > the transition periods between stable states was ever a > comfortable time - in fact such climate "flips" appear to > be associated with mass species extinctions. I don't > think humans should risk setting off one of those. Earth > can do these climate flips all by itself with natural > variations in influences. It just seems insane to force > one to happen by our own actions. > > Nick Palmer > > > > > > > > --==========07425026========== Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline ArialNick , There is no question that warming is occurring now. Only if = such temp excursions have also occurred in the recent past. = I think that article makes a good case that Mann cooked the = books and that NO due diligence was ever done = on his work. It was just blindly accepted .."Nature" where = it was published included. This is not good science. I = think the data in question was from a sample of 4 trees and = then he used a erroneous statistical method to bias the = data...and what's more he did it intentionally because he = did his graphs without the data and did not disclose it. = Hardly above board as it should be. Full disclosure of data = and methods are a prerequisite to good science. Especially = when billion $ decisions are being made based on the data. You are correct ."Hype" is too strong a word in my email = but it is too bad when the scientists fudge the data to = prove their pre existing bias. Ron --On Thursday, October 13, 2005 11:44 AM +0100 Nick Palmer = < wrote: >=20 >=20 > Sorry, but this article that R. Wormus refers to is just > one straw man argument after another. R. Wormus himself > goes too far in his email "This is a really interesting > article describing the origins of much of the climate > change hype" No, it doesn't describe the origins of the > "hype" at all. Serious concerns that humans can affect > the climate, though their activities, predate the "hockey > stick" graph by a long way. The fact that it has been > used politically (quote "The whole field of global > warming is currently suffering from the fact that it has > become politicized") is regrettable if it turns out to > have been massaged, consciously or unconsciously. The > authors do actually make out a reasonable case that Mann > (responsible for the tree ring/ice core analysis that led > to the graph) used a dubious method by statistically > overweighting the growth spurt of Californian bristle > cone pines in the 20th century to infer an accelerating > increase of global temperature. The article itself > states that this increase was probably due to the > increase in levels of CO2 in that time - no-one appears > to be disputing that CO2 levels are increasing -and not > to a temperature increase.=20 >=20 > From the article :- A referee of their work stated > "McIntyre and McKitrick present a cogent analysis of the > global warming data.They do not conclude that global > warming is not a problem; they don't even conclude that > the medieval warm period really was there.All they do is > correct the analysis of prior workers."=20 >=20 > and also -: McIntyre:" Our research does not say that > the earth?s atmosphere is not getting warmer. But the > evidence from this famous study does not allow us to draw > any conclusions about its extent, relative to the past > thousand years, which remains as much a mystery now as it > was before Mann?s article in 1998"=20 >=20 > Readers of Vortex will remember that my position has > always been that, although I will always attack global > warming deniers, because they are the most dangerous, my > secondary position is that I will also attack those who > purport that climate science is good enough to accurately > predict the future. They are also dangerous! Vanity is > present on both sides of the argument. This means that if > the Kyoto protocol predicts a 2 degree rise in 50 years, > I will say bollocks! The whole nub of the global warming > (or climate change, as I prefer to describe it) argument > should be that if we continue to alter the composition of > the atmosphere by pouring known greenhouse gases into it > faster than natural processes sequester it, then basic > physics says that the climate dynamics will change. The > predictive science of the effects of feedback, positive > and negative, such as increased cloud cover, methane > clathrate release, increased atmospheric water vapour, > decreased albedo etc has not been experimentally > verified, only computer modelled. Evidence from the far > past show that Earth has had many pseudo stable climate > states. Some of them may be better for us than the one we > currently have, if we could choose which one we end up > with, but I don't think there are many who would say that > the transition periods between stable states was ever a > comfortable time - in fact such climate "flips" appear to > be associated with mass species extinctions. I don't > think humans should risk setting off one of those. Earth > can do these climate flips all by itself with natural > variations in influences. It just seems insane to force > one to happen by our own actions.=20 >=20 > Nick Palmer=20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > =20 --==========07425026==========-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 13 08:02:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9DF24ss011062; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 08:02:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9DF21Cn011006; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 08:02:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 08:02:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051013104730.04b96c70 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 11:00:58 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Interesting Paper on Climate Change Science In-Reply-To: <7408187.1129192097 localhost> References: <000d01c5cfe3$132ab920$0501a8c0 nixlaptop> <7408187.1129192097 localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <1_nSC.A.5rC.pbnTDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63779 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ron Wormus wrote: >There is no question that warming is occurring now. Only if such temp >excursions have also occurred in the recent past. I think that article >makes a good case that Mann cooked the books and that NO due diligence was >ever done on his work. >It was just blindly accepted .."Nature" where it was published included. I cannot judge whether this paper is correct or not, but the original paper does seem very fishy, and Nature has acted outrageously, just as they did with regard to cold fusion. >Full disclosure of data and methods are a prerequisite to good science. >Especially when billion $ decisions are being made based on the data. That is a ridiculous exaggeration. Billions of dollars are not riding on this one data set alone, but rather on data, computer models and theories from hundreds of different researchers. I agree this looks like bad science. There has been a great deal of bad science and shoddy research on both sides of the cold-fusion debate. However, just because you find one bad cold fusion paper that does not mean you can dismiss the whole field. By the same token, just because you find this "hockey stick" paper is flawed, that does not mean you can dismiss the whole field of global warming. Also, there is a difference between predicting the future and forecasting it. The weather bureau does not claim it is infallible. It forecasts what is statistically likely to happen in the near future. Climate researchers predict what is statistically likely in the more distant future. Obviously their predictions are much less certain, but that does not mean they are worthless. On the McIntyre web site, someone wrote that an event like the Krakatou explosion might throw off all of the predictions made by global warming experts. Of course it might! An unexpected shift in the path of a hurricane might spare a major city, no one can predict with perfect accuracy which direction a hurricane will go. That does not mean we have no idea what hurricanes will do, or that it is a waste of time trying to predict their paths, or that we should not evacuate when it seems likely a hurricane will strike. In any case, events like Krakatou are rare, and their influence only lasts for a few years as far as I know. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 13 08:12:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9DFBUr3017688; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 08:11:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9DFBPxi017606; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 08:11:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 08:11:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051013110811.04bc8290 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 11:10:44 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Interesting Paper on Climate Change Science - correction In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20051013104730.04b96c70 pop.mindspring.com> References: <000d01c5cfe3$132ab920$0501a8c0 nixlaptop> <7408187.1129192097 localhost> <6.2.1.2.2.20051013104730.04b96c70 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63780 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: >Also, there is a difference between predicting the future and forecasting it. I meant there is a the difference between prophecy and forecasting. Prophesy means: "1. To reveal by divine inspiration. 2. To predict with certainty as if by divine inspiration . . . See synonyms at foretell." Only the extremists in the global warming debate "predict with certainty as if by divine inspiration." - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 13 08:15:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9DFEJ6h020993; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 08:14:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9DFEDaG020837; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 08:14:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 08:14:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <09a701c5d008$b0d9d9b0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <000d01c5cfe3$132ab920$0501a8c0 nixlaptop> <7408187.1129192097@localhost> Subject: Re: Interesting Paper on Climate Change Science Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 08:13:38 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_09A4_01C5CFCE.040890D0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <2ockv.A.KFF.DnnTDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63781 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_09A4_01C5CFCE.040890D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ron, This is a good point about the very egregious and sloppy work done by M. = Mann. Having a strong bias or believe is NOT an excuse for out-and-out = dishonesty, no matter how valid you under-lying cause may be - "lying" = being the operative word. I say this even though, like Nick Palmer and others (who may have been = led to this forum because they are looking for solutions), it seems = clear that we could be facing an incredible environmental crisis due to = overuse of fossil fuels. Unfortunately the proof is in the eye of the = beholder, and there does not exist the kind of Hollywood-style dramatic = (and falsified) evidence which Mann concocted - it is mostly statistical = and interpretive (unless you have lived in Alaska for years and can see = the evidence of melting glaciers out your front window every morning)... = and we should admit that up front, for the benefit of those who doubting = Thomases who want to see the bloody palm. You need to go North for that = kind of first "hand" evidence. There are other good studies which indicate, but not prove this warming = hypothesis to be the case, but the biggest point that should be made = from any of it - is to err on the side of caution. Here is a fairly = balanced analysis of the biggest problem IMHO which is an arctic methane = release, but of course, not everyone agrees as to the exact details and = time frame: http://www.gl.rhbnc.ac.uk/staff/pdf/SuddenMethaneLGM.pdf The evidence for global warming is certainly MUCH stronger in the Arctic = - and that is the point that many overlook. This is the problem area - = every doubter who wants to become and activist for "more-of-the-same" = should have a guided tour of any area in the far North by a native. When a fool like Mann has been caught in such a pattern of deceit, this = does incredible harm to those many other scientists who have done good = work and come to the same conclusions, but without the kind of dramatic = non-evidence which has been largely concocted here. Shame on you Michael Mann. You have done the cause a great dis-service. Jones ------=_NextPart_000_09A4_01C5CFCE.040890D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ron,

This is a good point about = the very=20 egregious and sloppy work done by M. Mann. Having a strong bias or = believe is=20 NOT an excuse for out-and-out dishonesty, no matter how valid you = under-lying=20 cause may be - "lying" being the operative word.

I say this even = though,=20 like Nick Palmer and others (who may have been led to this forum = because=20 they are looking for solutions), it seems clear that we could be = facing an=20 incredible environmental crisis due to overuse of fossil fuels. = Unfortunately=20 the proof is in the eye of the beholder, and there does not exist = the kind=20 of Hollywood-style dramatic (and falsified) evidence which Mann = concocted=20 - it is mostly statistical and interpretive (unless you have lived = in=20 Alaska for years and can see the evidence of melting glaciers out your = front=20 window every morning)... and we should admit that up front, for the = benefit=20 of those who doubting Thomases who want to see the bloody palm. You need = to go=20 North for that kind of first "hand" evidence.
 
There are other good studies which = indicate, but=20 not prove this warming hypothesis to be the case, but the biggest point = that=20 should be made from any of it - is to err on the side of caution. Here = is a=20 fairly balanced analysis of the biggest problem IMHO which is an=20 arctic methane release, but of course, not everyone agrees as to = the exact=20 details and time frame:
http://= www.gl.rhbnc.ac.uk/staff/pdf/SuddenMethaneLGM.pdf
 
The evidence for global warming is = certainly MUCH=20 stronger in the Arctic - and that is the point that many overlook. This = is the=20 problem area - every doubter who wants to become and activist for=20 "more-of-the-same" should have a guided tour of any area in the far = North by a=20 native.

When a fool like Mann has been caught in such a pattern of = deceit, this=20 does incredible harm to those many other scientists who have done good = work and=20 come to the same conclusions, but without the kind of dramatic = non-evidence=20 which has been largely concocted here.

Shame on you Michael Mann. = You=20 have done the cause a great dis-service.
 
Jones
------=_NextPart_000_09A4_01C5CFCE.040890D0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 13 08:48:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9DFlg0f015505; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 08:47:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9DFleFF015476; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 08:47:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 08:47:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051013112520.04b9f310 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 11:46:58 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Interesting Paper on Climate Change Science In-Reply-To: <09a701c5d008$b0d9d9b0$6401a8c0 NuDell> References: <000d01c5cfe3$132ab920$0501a8c0 nixlaptop> <7408187.1129192097 localhost> <09a701c5d008$b0d9d9b0$6401a8c0 NuDell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63782 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >When a fool like Mann has been caught in such a pattern of deceit, this >does incredible harm to those many other scientists who have done good >work and come to the same conclusions, but without the kind of dramatic >non-evidence which has been largely concocted here. > >Shame on you Michael Mann. You have done the cause a great dis-service. Exactly right! As I said yesterday about Y2K, "these crises are bad enough already. We do not need to sensationalize them or pretend they are bad in ways they are not." (An earlier comment) >I say this even though, like Nick Palmer and others (who may have been led >to this forum because they are looking for solutions), it seems clear that >we could be facing an incredible environmental crisis due to overuse of >fossil fuels. Unfortunately the proof is in the eye of the beholder, and >there does not exist the kind of Hollywood-style dramatic (and falsified) >evidence which Mann concocted - it is mostly statistical and interpretive >(unless you have lived in Alaska for years . . . I disagree somewhat. I think the environmental crisis is clear already, because the deleterious effects are not limited to global warming. You can see and smell massive air pollution anywhere on the US East Coast, or Southern California. Fossil-fuel also causes serious social problems such as war, poverty, disease, terrorism, famine and deforestation, and of course this human misery in turn damages the environment. The high cost of oil and natural gas fuel is a burden on poor people in the first world, and it kills millions of people in the Third World. In a way, I think it is a shame that global warming has attracted so much attention, and that it has become the focus of the environmental debate. It is used as an excuse to avoid addressing the energy crisis. Debunkers and industry flacks say there are legitimate doubts about global warming (which is true) and therefore we can stand pat and do nothing about impending oil shortages or pollution (which is a non sequitur). I wish the environmentalist would emphasize this argument: "Put aside global warming and look at all the other problems fossil fuels cause. Coal kills 20,000 people a year in the US alone, 7 times the death toll of the 9/11 attacks, and it goes on year after year, unabated. If we are willing to spend billions to avoid another 9/11, why are we unwilling to spend billions to replace coal with cleaner renewable energy sources?" As Jones said, Michael Mann had handed the debunkers and industry flacks ammunition. Perhaps he is a secret agent for the other side, and he is trying to make the environmentalists look bad?!? - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 13 09:03:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9DG2NeH027402; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 09:02:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9DG2FHg027187; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 09:02:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 09:02:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <09dd01c5d00f$54293240$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <000d01c5cfe3$132ab920$0501a8c0 nixlaptop> <7408187.1129192097@localhost> <09a701c5d008$b0d9d9b0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051013112520.04b9f310@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Interesting Paper on Climate Change Science Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 09:01:09 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <2W55cC.A.EoG.AUoTDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63783 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Michael Mann had handed the debunkers and industry flacks > ammunition. Perhaps he is a secret agent for the other side, and > he is trying to make the environmentalists look bad?!? I was thinking the exact same thing - but in keeping with the unusual level of "self-righteousness" of the rest of the previous post, held-off in suggesting the same kind of low-evidence proposition that I was already accusing Mann of making. BTW a quick Wiki search sez: Michael Mann is a well-known climatologist, author of more than 80 peer-reviewed journal publications. He has attained public prominence as lead author of a number of articles on global warming which feature a graph of temperature trends dubbed the "hockey stick graph" for the shape of the trend line. In August 2005 he was appointed Associate Professor at Pennsylvania State University, in the Department of Meteorology and Earth and Environmental Systems Institute, and Director of the university's interdepartmental Earth System Science Center. He previously taught at the University of Virginia, in the Department of Environmental Sciences (1999 - 2005). Although favoring the Hollywood-style of science journalism, he not the same guy who made pastels famous, and Don Johnson's alligator a status symbol among the powder-set in Coral Gables. [That last paragraph was not in the original article] From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 13 09:05:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9DG5DIc030986; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 09:05:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9DG57EV030876; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 09:05:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 09:05:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <09e101c5d00f$d0f2d830$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex-l" References: <410-2200510413101358400 earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Spin Induced Deuteron Stripping in D2O? Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 09:04:39 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_09DE_01C5CFD5.2434A220" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63784 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_09DE_01C5CFD5.2434A220 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Fred, I think you have hit on the easiest possible incarnation of the Mizuno = experiment. However, as an alternative cryo-technique, for the prospective = experimenters out there - if there is a welding shop in the 'hood and = you have a large Thermos, then it might be prudent to ask if you can get = a fill of LN there, as many welders have LN on hand, and evaporating = acetone is nasty stuff. =20 Jones ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Frederick Sparber=20 To: vortex-l=20 Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2005 3:13 AM Subject: Re: Spin Induced Deuteron Stripping in D2O? With a stack of Neodymium disk magnets on a yoke rotating (up to 12,000 rpm) around a test tube filled with an = antifreeze mix of D2O in Ethanol "Everclear", CF & neutrons perhaps? with occasional = cooling in Acetone- Dry Ice (- 78 deg C) to see if ZPE pumping creates = "metastable"low energy-stripping deuterons. http://www.indigo.com/magnets/neodymium-magnets.html ------=_NextPart_000_09DE_01C5CFD5.2434A220 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Fred,
 
I think you have hit on the easiest possible = incarnation=20 of the Mizuno experiment.
 
However, as an alternative cryo-technique, for = the=20 prospective experimenters out there - if there is a welding shop in = the=20 'hood and you have a large Thermos, then it might be prudent to ask = if you=20 can get a fill of LN there, as many welders have LN on hand, and=20 evaporating acetone is nasty stuff. 
 
Jones
 
 
 
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Frederick Sparber
Sent: Thursday, October 13, = 2005 3:13=20 AM
Subject: Re: Spin Induced = Deuteron=20 Stripping in D2O?

With a stack of Neodymium disk magnets on a yoke
rotating (up to 12,000 rpm) around a test tube filled with an = antifreeze=20 mix of D2O
in Ethanol "Everclear", CF & neutrons perhaps?  with = occasional=20 cooling
in Acetone- Dry Ice (- 78 deg C) to see if ZPE pumping = creates=20 "metastable"low energy-stripping deuterons.
 
 
http://www.= indigo.com/magnets/neodymium-magnets.html
 
 
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_000_09DE_01C5CFD5.2434A220-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 13 09:53:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9DGrGR1029106; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 09:53:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9DGrEQP029083; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 09:53:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 09:53:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 10:54:56 -0600 From: Ron Wormus To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Interesting Paper on Climate Change Science Message-ID: <16207562.1129200896 localhost> In-Reply-To: <09a701c5d008$b0d9d9b0$6401a8c0 NuDell> References: <09a701c5d008$b0d9d9b0$6401a8c0 NuDell> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.2.1 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="==========16211649==========" Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63785 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --==========16211649========== Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Jones, This quote from the Nisbet paper you posted sums up my feelings exactly. "Indeed, hypotheses of catastrophe should be tested very rigorously. `Crying wolf' has direct consequences on society. To some extent the governance of the global economy is involved: incorrect or over-stated hypotheses will cause erroneous policy. On the other hand, dismissal of correctly perceived risk may lead to real danger. Moreover, large energy resources are involved, which are potential sources of prosperity." Ron --On Thursday, October 13, 2005 8:13 AM -0700 Jones Beene wrote: > > Ron, > > This is a good point about the very egregious and sloppy > work done by M. Mann. Having a strong bias or believe is > NOT an excuse for out-and-out dishonesty, no matter how > valid you under-lying cause may be - "lying" being the > operative word. > > I say this even though, like Nick Palmer and others (who > may have been led to this forum because they are looking > for solutions), it seems clear that we could be facing an > incredible environmental crisis due to overuse of fossil > fuels. Unfortunately the proof is in the eye of the > beholder, and there does not exist the kind of > Hollywood-style dramatic (and falsified) evidence which > Mann concocted - it is mostly statistical and > interpretive (unless you have lived in Alaska for years > and can see the evidence of melting glaciers out your > front window every morning)... and we should admit that > up front, for the benefit of those who doubting Thomases > who want to see the bloody palm. You need to go North for > that kind of first "hand" evidence. > There are other good studies which indicate, but not > prove this warming hypothesis to be the case, but the > biggest point that should be made from any of it - is to > err on the side of caution. Here is a fairly balanced > analysis of the biggest problem IMHO which is an arctic > methane release, but of course, not everyone agrees as to > the exact details and time frame: > http://www.gl.rhbnc.ac.uk/staff/pdf/SuddenMethaneLGM.pdf > > The evidence for global warming is certainly MUCH > stronger in the Arctic - and that is the point that many > overlook. This is the problem area - every doubter who > wants to become and activist for "more-of-the-same" > should have a guided tour of any area in the far North by > a native. > > When a fool like Mann has been caught in such a pattern > of deceit, this does incredible harm to those many other > scientists who have done good work and come to the same > conclusions, but without the kind of dramatic > non-evidence which has been largely concocted here. > > Shame on you Michael Mann. You have done the cause a > great dis-service. > Jones --==========16211649========== Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline ArialJones, This quote from the Nisbet paper you posted sums up my = feelings exactly. "Indeed, hypotheses of catastrophe should be tested very = rigorously. `Crying wolf' has direct consequences on = society. To some extent the governance of the global = economy is involved: incorrect or over-stated hypotheses = will cause erroneous policy. On the other hand, dismissal = of correctly perceived risk may lead to real danger. = Moreover, large energy resources are involved, which are = potential sources of prosperity." Ron --On Thursday, October 13, 2005 8:13 AM -0700 Jones Beene = < wrote: >=20 > Ron, >=20 > This is a good point about the very egregious and sloppy > work done by M. Mann. Having a strong bias or believe is > NOT an excuse for out-and-out dishonesty, no matter how > valid you under-lying cause may be - "lying" being the > operative word. >=20 > I say this even though, like Nick Palmer and others (who > may have been led to this forum because they are looking > for solutions), it seems clear that we could be facing an > incredible environmental crisis due to overuse of fossil > fuels. Unfortunately the proof is in the eye of the > beholder, and there does not exist the kind of > Hollywood-style dramatic (and falsified) evidence which > Mann concocted - it is mostly statistical and > interpretive (unless you have lived in Alaska for years > and can see the evidence of melting glaciers out your > front window every morning)... and we should admit that > up front, for the benefit of those who doubting Thomases > who want to see the bloody palm. You need to go North for > that kind of first "hand" evidence. =20 > There are other good studies which indicate, but not > prove this warming hypothesis to be the case, but the > biggest point that should be made from any of it - is to > err on the side of caution. Here is a fairly balanced > analysis of the biggest problem IMHO which is an arctic > methane release, but of course, not everyone agrees as to > the exact details and time frame: > http://www.gl.rhbnc.ac.uk/staff/pdf/SuddenMethaneLGM.pdf=20 > =20 > The evidence for global warming is certainly MUCH > stronger in the Arctic - and that is the point that many > overlook. This is the problem area - every doubter who > wants to become and activist for "more-of-the-same" > should have a guided tour of any area in the far North by > a native.=20 >=20 > When a fool like Mann has been caught in such a pattern > of deceit, this does incredible harm to those many other > scientists who have done good work and come to the same > conclusions, but without the kind of dramatic > non-evidence which has been largely concocted here. >=20 > Shame on you Michael Mann. You have done the cause a > great dis-service. =20 > Jones=20 --==========16211649==========-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 13 10:16:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9DHG80v011388; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 10:16:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9DHG5xD011349; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 10:16:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 10:16:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=PtvZCiVZvQsG0nmiuDxoARvPK3pjKbpCUhRPyyL4sr7eeGTkHLSfULtqutaB2xVw; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200510413161431950 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Spin Induced Deuteron Stripping in D2O? Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 11:14:31 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940db9a4329a95c77d1b711c712efede54e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.165.232 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63786 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Jones Actually to get the most bang for the buck, a low voltage (~15 volt D.C.) arc discharge in D2O using a Tungsten Carbide anode & D2O pool cathode laced with K2CO3 is worth a try. That pressure cooker (high voltage water LiOH) discharge experiment I did in 1975 keeps coming back to haunt me. Fred Jones Beene wrote: Fred I think you have hit on the easiest possible incarnation of the Mizuno experiment. However, as an alternative cryo-technique, for the prospective experimenters out there - if there is a welding shop in the 'hood and you have a large Thermos, then it might be prudent to ask if you can get a fill of LN there, as many welders have LN on hand, and evaporating acetone is nasty stuff. Jones ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2005 3:13 AM Subject: Re: Spin Induced Deuteron Stripping in D2O? With a stack of Neodymium disk magnets on a yoke rotating (up to 12,000 rpm) around a test tube filled with an antifreeze mix of D2O in Ethanol "Everclear", CF & neutrons perhaps? with occasional cooling in Acetone- Dry Ice (- 78 deg C) to see if ZPE pumping creates "metastable"low energy-stripping deuterons. http://www.indigo.com/magnets/neodymium-magnets.html ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Jones
 
Actually to get the most bang for the buck, a low voltage (~15 volt D.C.)  arc discharge in D2O
using a Tungsten Carbide anode & D2O pool cathode laced with K2CO3 is worth a try.
That pressure cooker (high voltage water LiOH) discharge experiment I did in 1975 keeps coming back to haunt me.
 
Fred
 
Jones Beene wrote:
Fred
 
I think you have hit on the easiest possible incarnation of the Mizuno experiment.
 
However, as an alternative cryo-technique, for the prospective experimenters out there - if there is a welding shop in the 'hood and you have a large Thermos, then it might be prudent to ask if you can get a fill of LN there, as many welders have LN on hand, and evaporating acetone is nasty stuff. 
 
Jones
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2005 3:13 AM
Subject: Re: Spin Induced Deuteron Stripping in D2O?

With a stack of Neodymium disk magnets on a yoke
rotating (up to 12,000 rpm) around a test tube filled with an antifreeze mix of D2O
in Ethanol "Everclear", CF & neutrons perhaps?  with occasional cooling
in Acetone- Dry Ice (- 78 deg C) to see if ZPE pumping creates "metastable"low energy-stripping deuterons.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 13 10:28:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9DHSD4J024218; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 10:28:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9DHSBaf024187; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 10:28:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 10:28:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <0f6e01c5d019$74d827d0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: W'ssup in Solar? Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 10:13:39 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0F6B_01C5CFDE.C817A7D0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <6sjY1D.A.35F.qkpTDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63787 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0F6B_01C5CFDE.C817A7D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Q: w'ssup with YIng-Yang these days?=20 The east-west, the old-new, and the overlooked premise that "value" not = efficiency rules in the free-market these days/ ANS: Flashback to Type-A Mister R. [seriously advising a young Type-B++ = Benjamin Braddock, who has his mind on other things] : "son, I just have one word of advice for you"... [a plaintive S&G duet starts up in the background..."where are you Mrs. = Robinson..."] "Plastics !" Yang Yang couldn't have said it better hisseff... http://tinyurl.com/8km84=20 "UCLA Makes Cheap Solar Cells" Ah yes, the roof of tomorrow. It's not that efficient but its cheaper = than shingles...and if M. Foster ever hooks up with plastic cells ... = the Cal-Chi of Ying-Yang ? ------=_NextPart_000_0F6B_01C5CFDE.C817A7D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Q: w'ssup with=20 YIng-Yang these days?
 
The east-west, the old-new, and = the overlooked=20 premise that "value" not efficiency rules in the free-market these=20 days/

ANS: Flashback=20 to Type-A Mister R. [seriously advising a young Type-B++ Benjamin = Braddock,=20 who has his mind on other things] :

"son, I just have one word of advice for  you"...
 
[a plaintive S&G duet starts = up in the=20 background..."where are you Mrs. Robinson..."]
 
"Plastics !"
 
Yang Yang couldn't have said it better=20 hisseff...
 http://tinyurl.com/8km84 =
 
 "UCLA Makes = Cheap Solar=20 Cells"
 
Ah yes, the = roof of=20 tomorrow. It's not that efficient but its cheaper than shingles...and if = M.=20 Foster ever hooks up with plastic cells ... the Cal-Chi of Ying-Yang=20 ?
------=_NextPart_000_0F6B_01C5CFDE.C817A7D0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 13 10:50:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9DHoBVj006887; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 10:50:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9DHo95X006863; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 10:50:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 10:50:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=SCbOAPFxIcYwrOJMDEh0DLa5QPDjbpSQwtTTfvFRwDUfUxRAtGyTaiwtQDbJDaBy; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200510413164852260 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Spin Induced Deuteron Stripping in D2O? Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 11:48:52 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940060bc7f184568ac841d3e70029cc3a44350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.47 Resent-Message-ID: <2v04G.A.JrB.Q5pTDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63788 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII A 12 volt car or utility battery (possibly with a large electrolytic capacitor) using a 5/8 inch Tungsten Carbide-Tipped Masonry Drill as the anode slowly dipped into the D2O electrolyte pool should create a high current arc if the pool is conductive enough. Frederick I wrote: > > Jones > > Actually to get the most bang for the buck, a low voltage (~15 volt D.C.) arc discharge in D2O > using a Tungsten Carbide anode & D2O pool cathode laced with K2CO3 is worth a try. > That pressure cooker (high voltage water LiOH) discharge experiment I did in 1975 keeps coming back to haunt me. > ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

A 12 volt car or utility battery (possibly with a large electrolytic capacitor) using a 5/8 inch
Tungsten Carbide-Tipped Masonry Drill as the anode slowly dipped into the D2O electrolyte
pool should create a high current arc if the pool is conductive enough.
 
Frederick
 
I wrote:
>
> Jones
>
> Actually to get the most bang for the buck, a low voltage (~15 volt D.C.)  arc discharge in D2O
> using a Tungsten Carbide anode & D2O pool cathode laced with K2CO3 is worth a try.
> That pressure cooker (high voltage water LiOH) discharge experiment I did in 1975 keeps coming back to haunt me.
>
 
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 13 13:19:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9DKISFN020431; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 13:18:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9DKIRsV020409; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 13:18:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 13:18:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Message-ID: <434EC0FA.9020206 iinet.net.au> Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 06:18:02 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: W'ssup in Solar? References: <0f6e01c5d019$74d827d0$6401a8c0 NuDell> In-Reply-To: <0f6e01c5d019$74d827d0$6401a8c0 NuDell> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63790 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > Q: w'ssup with YIng-Yang these days? > > The east-west, the old-new, and the overlooked premise that "value" > not efficiency rules in the free-market these days/ > > ANS: Flashback to Type-A Mister R. [seriously advising a young > Type-B++ Benjamin Braddock, who has his mind on other things] : > > "son, I just have one word of advice for you"... > > [a plaintive S&G duet starts up in the background..."where are you > Mrs. Robinson..."] > > "Plastics !" > > Yang Yang couldn't have said it better hisseff... > *http://tinyurl.com/8km84* > ** > "UCLA Makes Cheap Solar Cells" > > Ah yes, the roof of tomorrow. It's not that efficient but its cheaper > than shingles...and if M. Foster ever hooks up with plastic cells ... > the Cal-Chi of Ying-Yang ? Roof top solar if implemented on the large scale in Australia would meet most of our day time energy demand and since we also have wind, a 20 MW solar chimney project, more than one 10 kW tidal/ river current power plus our coasts are perfect for wave power. Bass Straight between Tasmania and the main land is so shallow, less than 100 meters in many places that you could run a string of wave power units across the straight. You could make hydrogen, methanol, or ethane for the car market quite cheaply. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 13 23:35:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9E6YuIa000894; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 23:35:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9E6Ylfa000795; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 23:34:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 23:34:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 01:33:43 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: electrostatic hover craft Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: <28fMd.A.OM.HG1TDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63792 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In a message dated 10/7/2005 5:15:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time, I posted; If you ever figure out what Keely was talking about, and get a design for that machine Baron we'd all love to see it. And the Baron replied; In Keely's day in the 1800's, according to Konstantine Meyl, in his book Scalar Waves, there were more neutrino energies in the atmosphere than there are Dale Pond says that his recreation of Keely's Dynasphere, which sounds a lot what you are describing, works on the Strong Force, I have postulated that if we were to place hundreds of pipes in series inside of an oval piece of metal used as a base for a hover car, and then placed a All you need is one pipe, and a sensitive scale. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 14 06:51:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9EDocvl018961; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 06:50:53 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9EDoUwe018907; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 06:50:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 06:50:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=tTwIlRXGI8K2ScWLF80pGRzMrORAQQUhuqfr67GNLlVjiYJAHsXaq6BZniolAZbK; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200510514124910130 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Impact Induced Deuteron Stripping in D2O? Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 07:49:10 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940d26b8c2943bac7de76418ad540210858350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.226 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63793 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII A gram per second of D2O at 3,000 PSIG 1,000 Deg F (~3600 Joule/gram) exiting a 0.0025 inch bore capillary tube (commercial item) at ~ 3,000 meters/sec ( ~0.7 eV kinetic energy) impacting a plate might result in low energy stripping of "metastable" deuterons. Capillary Tubing: http://vitaneedle.com/pages/hypodermic.htm Orifice/Capillary Sizing Calculator: http://www.lenoxlaser.com/calculator/orifice.asp D2O, a grease gun, some capillary tubing (316 Stainless Steel) a propane torch to heat the end of the cap tube, and a neutron counter are required. It ought to do as much good as cavitation or sonofusion. FJS ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

A gram per second of D2O at 3,000 PSIG 1,000 Deg F (~3600 Joule/gram)
exiting a 0.0025 inch bore capillary tube (commercial item) at ~ 3,000 meters/sec ( ~0.7 eV kinetic energy)
impacting a plate might result in low energy stripping of "metastable" deuterons.
 
Capillary Tubing:
 
 
Orifice/Capillary Sizing Calculator:
 
 
D2O, a grease gun, some capillary tubing (316 Stainless Steel) a propane
torch to heat the end of the cap tube, and a neutron counter are required.
It ought to do as much good as cavitation or sonofusion.
 
FJS
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 14 07:03:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9EE2xJe026744; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 07:03:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9EE2r0s026694; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 07:02:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 07:02:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051014100006.04626670 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 10:02:18 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Melich analysis of Harwell data Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63794 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here is a paper about the early history of cold fusion: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MelichMEsomelesson.pdf I meant to upload that a long time ago. I should probably upload Ref. 2 from ICCF2. Here is a 1999 paper by Pam Boss: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MosierBossthepdnhsys.pdf - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 14 07:33:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9EEWStU009375; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 07:32:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9EEWMIl009328; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 07:32:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 07:32:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <4enjqj$1i2olif mxip19a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.97,215,1125892800"; d="scan'208"; a="1680627279:sNHT15848528" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: OrionWorks Organization: OrionWorks To: CC: Subject: AE Startup: Bourne Energy Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 9:31:47 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63795 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vorts, A link to another AE startup: BOURNE ENERGY. http://www.bourneenergy.com They seem to be focusing on ocean wave and river power. Lots of talk. Few details. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 14 07:36:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9EEZfeB011052; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 07:35:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9EEZZ8i011005; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 07:35:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 07:35:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051014103121.037fab20 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 10:35:06 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Improved fission reactor under construction in Finland Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j9EEZEWF010867 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63796 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wish the U.S. had about 200 of these. See: http://www.ajc.com/business/content/business/1005/14biznuclear.html QUOTES . . . Construction has begun in Finland on the first of a new generation of reactors designed to alleviate many of the concerns that arose after the accidents at the Three Mile Island plant in Pennsylvania in 1979 and at Chernobyl in Ukraine in 1986. The new plants are designed to be simpler and more rugged. They employ "passive" methods to shut down in an emergency that are based on physical phenomena such as gravity or temperature resistance rather than engineered parts. Proponents say they virtually eliminate the danger of a meltdown of the nuclear core. The new reactors also contain safety features not found in older U.S. plants, such as water-filled basins that would capture and cool the core if a meltdown did occur. "In terms of safety, the reactor being built in Finland is the only reactor in the world in which the consequences of a core melt accident would be restricted to the plant itself, thanks to the core catcher and other features," said Anne Lauvergeon, chairman of the executive board at Areva, a French-owned nuclear engineering firm that's helping to build the Finnish plant. "And, with its extremely robust containment, it's the reactor with the highest resistance against an airplane crash worldwide," she said. Finally, the new reactors are supposed to produce much less nuclear waste ­ perhaps only one-tenth of that produced by existing reactors. Here is a document from Greenpeace opposing the construction of this reactor: http://eu.greenpeace.org/downloads/energy/PRonFinnishEPR.pdf - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 14 07:44:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9EEhcRL014960; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 07:43:53 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9EEhWfk014891; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 07:43:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 07:43:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051014104149.04470260 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 10:43:05 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Improved fission reactor under construction in Finland In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20051014103121.037fab20 pop.mindspring.com> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051014103121.037fab20 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63797 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Somewhat more technical info is here: http://www.uic.com.au/nip76.htm I am surprised at that high capital costs for wind power shown in the first graph. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 14 08:07:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9EF6Q1D029786; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 08:06:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9EF6FOa029511; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 08:06:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 08:06:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=qjJVsxNxTU7jE+S8FWVRNV9Elqt3uW4EOY/quUuXZS7Ezgd3jDScIc7YgqV5EQx5; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22005105141442510 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Impact Induced Deuteron Stripping in D2O? Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 09:04:25 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940bfa060192a7158169b8350a31aad16d2350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.159.1 Resent-Message-ID: <9vAokD.A.8MH.kl8TDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63798 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Posted earlier: > > A gram per second of D2O at 3,000 PSIG 1,000 Deg F (~3600 Joule/gram) > exiting a 0.0025 inch bore capillary tube (commercial item) at ~ 3,000 meters/sec ( ~0.7 eV kinetic energy) > impacting a plate might result in low energy stripping of "metastable" deuterons. > A back-of-the-envelope calculation to see how many neutrons and 2.0 MeV Gammas a steam power plant could produce based on one deuteron per 7,000 H2O molecules at a heat rate of 10,000 BTU/KWe (About 8.33 lbs H2O/KWe). At 1/7000 (~1.0e19 deuterons/gram) = 1e19*454*8.33 = 3.78e22 deuterons or possible stripped neutrons/KWe to recombine with an H atom to form a new deuteron releasing a 2.0 MeV gamma with a total energy of ~11 Megawatts worth of gammas. OTOH. With one per million low energy "metastable" deuterons ~ 3.78e16 neutrons/KWe and 11 watts worth of gammas. Still a lot in a 500 Megawatt (500,000 KW) power plant FJS ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Posted earlier:
>
> A gram per second of D2O at 3,000 PSIG 1,000 Deg F (~3600 Joule/gram)
> exiting a 0.0025 inch bore capillary tube (commercial item) at ~ 3,000 meters/sec ( ~0.7 eV kinetic energy)
> impacting a plate might result in low energy stripping of "metastable" deuterons.
>
A back-of-the-envelope calculation to see how many neutrons and 2.0 MeV Gammas
a steam power plant could produce based on one deuteron per 7,000 H2O molecules at a heat rate
of 10,000 BTU/KWe (About 8.33 lbs H2O/KWe).
At 1/7000 (~1.0e19 deuterons/gram) = 1e19*454*8.33 = 3.78e22 deuterons or possible stripped neutrons/KWe to
recombine with an H atom to form a new deuteron releasing a 2.0 MeV gamma with
a total energy of ~11 Megawatts worth of gammas.
OTOH. With one per million low energy "metastable" deuterons ~ 3.78e16 neutrons/KWe
and 11 watts worth of gammas. Still a lot in a 500 Megawatt  (500,000 KW) power plant
 
FJS
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 14 08:48:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9EFlRLc021353; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 08:47:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9EFlImQ021299; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 08:47:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 08:47:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051014114358.0432cb30 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 11:46:36 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Melich analysis of Harwell data - correction In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20051014100006.04626670 pop.mindspring.com> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051014100006.04626670 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_6627718==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63800 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_6627718==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I wrote: >I meant to upload that a long time ago. I should probably upload Ref. 2 >from ICCF2. Correction. The ICCF2 paper is reference 1, and I have it already. I just changed the footnotes to include the hyperlink: 1. Hansen, W.N., 1992, Proceedings of the II Annual Conference on Cold Fusion, Vol. 33 of the Conference Proceedings, The Italian Physical Society, Bologna, p. 491, http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/HansenWNreporttoth.pdf 2. Williams, D.E., et al, Nature, 342 (1989), 375 I am missing #2, from Nature. It does not seem important. - Jed --=====================_6627718==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" I wrote:

I meant to upload that a long time ago. I should probably upload Ref. 2 from ICCF2.

Correction. The ICCF2 paper is reference 1, and I have it already. I just changed the footnotes to include the hyperlink:

1.      Hansen, W.N., 1992, Proceedings of the II Annual Conference on Cold Fusion, Vol. 33 of the Conference Proceedings, The Italian Physical Society, Bologna, p. 491, http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/HansenWNreporttoth.pdf
2.      Williams, D.E., et al, Nature, 342 (1989), 375

I am missing #2, from Nature. It does not seem important.

- Jed
--=====================_6627718==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 14 09:13:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9EGCtK5007080; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 09:13:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9EGCmMq006992; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 09:12:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 09:12:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003401c5d0da$102698a0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex-l" References: <410-22005105141442510 earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Impact Induced Deuteron Stripping in D2O? Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 09:12:23 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0031_01C5D09F.6352DEC0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63801 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0031_01C5D09F.6352DEC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Fred, Free neutrons are - pound for pound, among the most valuable commodities = on earth (even if you can only weigh them theoretically). Far more = valuable than diamonds or gemstones. So it is a bit of a surprise that = any and all of these ideas on deuterium stripping are not being pursued = more intently. Even the Fusor is ignored officially, and LENR advocates = are generally ignoring the latest Mizuno work. However, I think IF one can easily strip a very small percentage of = metastable deuterons, then the most efficient use of the resultant free = neutrons is going to be as "makeup" neutrons - to be employed in small, = mass-produced rail-mounted subcritical reactors of about 20-50 MW each, = fueled by natural uranium - but not exactly like the CANDU or newer = ACR700 - which design is a pressurized plumbing nightmare and does not = get the full benefit of an extremely "cheap" source of neutrons - = although the worst kept secret in nuclear engineering is that there is a = huge anomaly in how many free neutrons one gets from a deuterium = moderator. A total redesign, with an eye towards smaller, cheaper, safer, and no = steam (direct electrical conversion) could have be done here in the USA = anytime in the past two decades, were it not for the interests of the = "club" dominated by the General Electric Company, which is second to = only Halliburton-Big-Oil in political clout (and has been for 60 years = previously). We have billions of dollars of sunk cost in an = infrastructure of antiquated dangerous technology and subsidized = enriched-fuel, dominated by GE, its minions at DoE and DoD and the other = club-boys - and no willingness to change things. It is a source of = amazement that some European country has not stepped-in with a better = answer, but the unnecessary baggage and political problems for nuclear = are even more severe there. Jones ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Frederick Sparber=20 To: vortex-l=20 Sent: Friday, October 14, 2005 7:04 AM Subject: Re: Impact Induced Deuteron Stripping in D2O? Posted earlier: > > A gram per second of D2O at 3,000 PSIG 1,000 Deg F (~3600 = Joule/gram) > exiting a 0.0025 inch bore capillary tube (commercial item) at ~ = 3,000 meters/sec ( ~0.7 eV kinetic energy) > impacting a plate might result in low energy stripping of = "metastable" deuterons. >=20 A back-of-the-envelope calculation to see how many neutrons and 2.0 = MeV Gammas=20 a steam power plant could produce based on one deuteron per 7,000 H2O = molecules at a heat rate=20 of 10,000 BTU/KWe (About 8.33 lbs H2O/KWe). At 1/7000 (~1.0e19 deuterons/gram) =3D 1e19*454*8.33 =3D 3.78e22 = deuterons or possible stripped neutrons/KWe to=20 recombine with an H atom to form a new deuteron releasing a 2.0 MeV = gamma with a total energy of ~11 Megawatts worth of gammas. OTOH. With one per million low energy "metastable" deuterons ~ 3.78e16 = neutrons/KWe and 11 watts worth of gammas. Still a lot in a 500 Megawatt (500,000 = KW) power plant FJS ------=_NextPart_000_0031_01C5D09F.6352DEC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Fred,
 
Free neutrons are - pound for pound, among the = most=20 valuable commodities on earth (even if you can only weigh them = theoretically).=20 Far more valuable than diamonds or gemstones. So it is a bit of a = surprise that=20 any and all of these ideas on deuterium stripping are not being pursued = more=20 intently. Even the Fusor is ignored officially, and LENR advocates are = generally=20 ignoring the latest Mizuno work.
 
However, I think IF one can easily strip a = very small=20 percentage of metastable deuterons, then the most efficient use of the = resultant=20 free neutrons is going to be as "makeup" neutrons - to be employed in = small,=20 mass-produced rail-mounted subcritical reactors of about 20-50 MW=20 each, fueled by natural uranium - but not exactly like the CANDU or = newer=20 ACR700 - which design is a pressurized plumbing nightmare and does = not get=20 the full benefit of an extremely "cheap" source of neutrons - although = the worst=20 kept secret in nuclear engineering is that there is a huge anomaly in = how many=20 free neutrons one gets from a deuterium moderator.
 
A total redesign, with an eye towards smaller,=20 cheaper, safer, and no steam (direct electrical conversion) could = have be=20 done here in the USA anytime in the past two decades, were it not for = the=20 interests of the "club" dominated by the General Electric Company, which = is=20 second to only Halliburton-Big-Oil in political clout (and has been for = 60 years=20 previously). We have billions of dollars of sunk cost in an=20 infrastructure of antiquated dangerous technology and subsidized = enriched-fuel,=20 dominated by GE, its minions at DoE and DoD and the other = club-boys -=20 and no willingness to change things. It is a source of amazement that = some=20 European country has not stepped-in with a better answer, but the = unnecessary=20 baggage and political problems for nuclear are even more severe=20 there.
 
Jones
 
 
 
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Frederick Sparber
Sent: Friday, October 14, 2005 = 7:04=20 AM
Subject: Re: Impact Induced = Deuteron=20 Stripping in D2O?

Posted earlier:
>
> A gram per second of D2O at 3,000 PSIG 1,000 Deg F (~3600=20 Joule/gram)
> exiting a 0.0025 inch bore capillary tube (commercial item) = at ~=20 3,000 meters/sec ( ~0.7 eV kinetic energy)
> impacting a plate might result in low energy stripping of=20 "metastable" deuterons.
>
A back-of-the-envelope calculation to see how many neutrons and = 2.0 MeV=20 Gammas
a steam power plant could produce based on one deuteron per 7,000 = H2O=20 molecules at a heat rate
of 10,000 BTU/KWe (About 8.33 lbs H2O/KWe).
At 1/7000 (~1.0e19 deuterons/gram) =3D 1e19*454*8.33 =3D 3.78e22 = deuterons or=20 possible stripped neutrons/KWe to
recombine with an H atom to form a new deuteron releasing a 2.0 = MeV gamma=20 with
a total energy of ~11 Megawatts worth of gammas.
OTOH. With one per million low energy "metastable" deuterons ~ = 3.78e16=20 neutrons/KWe
and 11 watts worth of gammas. Still a lot in a 500 Megawatt  = (500,000 KW) power plant
 
FJS
 
 

------=_NextPart_000_0031_01C5D09F.6352DEC0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 14 09:38:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9EGbcEm024076; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 09:37:53 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9EGbMG2023915; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 09:37:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 09:37:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003801c5d0dd$79013800$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051014103121.037fab20 pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20051014104149.04470260@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Improved fission reactor under construction in Finland Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 09:36:47 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0035_01C5D0A2.CC3BD600" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63802 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0035_01C5D0A2.CC3BD600 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jed Rothwell wrote: > Somewhat more technical info is here:=20 http://www.uic.com.au/nip76.htm =20 > I am surprised at that high capital costs for wind power shown in the = first graph. Jed, you shouldn't be surprised - because as you have written yourself - = these costs are largely manipulated by whatever "political" doctrine is = in vogue in the region at the time and whatever lobby or PAC wants to = get their payola-product put in place: whether it be ethanol or solar or = in the case of nuclear - it is usually pressure coming from the "anti" = side. For instance - take nuclear. Atomic Energy of Canada is widely = advertising to every country on earth EXCEPT in the USA that they = willll come to your site and install a pair of the newer ACR700's at = just over US $1,000/ kw capital cost. A recent project in Quinshan China = finished with two Candu's in 46 months, on-budget and ahead of schedule. = Fixed price. The Chinese are going to add many more of these, and we = should be doing the same, or at least using this price as a bargaining = tool. Everybody's got a different figure for capital cost of nuclear, but when = it gets down to a real quote it's a far different thing. You can get a = real quote from Canada - and if it turns out that the US $1,000/ kw = capital cost got bumped up to $4,000 by special interest in the USA - = then that is politics. I have a file cabinet full of such calculations based on real numbers, = but they are worthless! The actual cost vs. the price-paid (anything to = do with energy) is largely artificial. The price-paid for the old style = (pressuized, or boiling water) US plants, using "offical" numbers is = indeed high - but these doctored numbers, coming through offical = channels, are often meaningless and/or politically manipulated.=20 For instance, at Watts Bar - a TVA multi-reactor plant which got caught = up in the political whirlwind of misplaced environmentalism - the cost = of the plant tripled overnight, and the construction time extended six = years from just having to add those massive concrete cooling towers. = Were they necessary? In some places they may be - but there, or in = plants sited near dams, the water to be released without the towers, = which ended up being three-fourths of the total plant cost (counting the = extra interest due to the delay), was actually colder than the river = water before the dam was in place. IOW, hydroelectric dams are great for = cooling water, but that benefit was not taken into account,=20 ...nor have any hydroelectric dam operators ever been made to reheat the = discharged water back up to the pre-dam temperatures. Hydroelectric is = the darling of everyone - but it produces abnormally low water = temperature, which can change the ecology of rivers below the dam. The = obvious "smart" solution is to site a smaller nuclear plant at every = hydro-site but without the cooling towers...duh! Its all political - and if you want to compare apples-to-apples - look = at actual quotes from actual suppliers, particularly in other countries = where a flat price was agreed on ahead of time - and toss the offical = manipulated pricing data into the round file.=20 Jones ------=_NextPart_000_0035_01C5D0A2.CC3BD600 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jed Rothwell wrote:

> = Somewhat more=20 technical info is here: 
http://www.uic.com.au/nip76.htm<= /A>
 
> I am surprised at that = high capital=20 costs for wind power shown in the first graph.


Jed, you = shouldn't be=20 surprised - because as you have written yourself - these costs are = largely=20 manipulated by whatever "political" doctrine is in vogue in the region = at the=20 time and whatever lobby or PAC wants to get their payola-product put in = place:=20 whether it be ethanol or solar or in the case of nuclear - it is usually = pressure coming from the "anti" side.
 
For instance - take nuclear. Atomic = Energy of=20 Canada is widely advertising to every country on earth EXCEPT in = the=20 USA that  they willll come to your site and install a pair of = the=20 newer ACR700's at just over US $1,000/ kw capital cost. A recent project = in=20 Quinshan China finished with two Candu's in 46 months, on-budget and = ahead of=20 schedule. Fixed price. The Chinese are going to add many more of these, = and we=20 should be doing the same, or at least using this price as a bargaining=20 tool.

Everybody's got a different figure for capital cost of = nuclear, but=20 when it gets down to a real quote it's a far different thing. You can = get a real=20 quote from Canada - and if it turns out that the US $1,000/ kw capital = cost got=20 bumped up to $4,000 by special interest in the USA - then that is=20 politics.

I have a file cabinet full of such = calculations=20 based on real numbers, but they are worthless! The actual cost vs. the=20 price-paid (anything to do with energy) is largely artificial. The = price-paid=20 for the old style (pressuized, or boiling water) US plants, using = "offical"=20 numbers is indeed high - but these doctored numbers, coming through = offical=20 channels, are often meaningless and/or politically manipulated. =
 
For instance, at Watts Bar - a TVA = multi-reactor=20 plant which got caught up in the political whirlwind of misplaced=20 environmentalism - the cost of the plant tripled overnight, and the = construction=20 time extended six years from just having to add those massive concrete = cooling=20 towers. Were they necessary? In some places they may be -  but = there,=20 or in plants sited near dams, the water to be released without the = towers,=20 which ended up being three-fourths of the total plant cost (counting the = extra=20 interest due to the delay), was actually colder than the river water = before the=20 dam was in place. IOW, hydroelectric dams are great for cooling water, = but that=20 benefit was not taken into account,
 
...nor have any hydroelectric dam = operators ever=20 been made to reheat the discharged water back up to the pre-dam = temperatures.=20 Hydroelectric is the darling of everyone - but it produces abnormally = low water=20 temperature, which can change the ecology of rivers below the dam. The = obvious=20 "smart" solution is to site a smaller nuclear plant at every hydro-site = but=20 without the cooling towers...duh!
 
Its all political - and if you want to = compare=20 apples-to-apples - look at actual quotes from actual suppliers,=20 particularly in other countries where a flat price was agreed = on ahead=20 of time - and toss the offical manipulated pricing data into the = round=20 file.
 
Jones
------=_NextPart_000_0035_01C5D0A2.CC3BD600-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 14 10:14:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9EHDijj019633; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 10:14:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9EHDfvs019576; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 10:13:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 10:13:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=QGSiDSyysuKYuckuwcLMvxPPK2aMbb3/lOx1ewrZ1+90MYxDG2M/CKWZ3emi/mRC; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200510514161148940 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Impact Induced Deuteron Stripping in D2O? Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 11:11:48 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940ba3b52f7410c6dc87619724ad63ed834350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.165.221 Resent-Message-ID: <61VUIC.A.rxE.Dd-TDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63803 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Jones, Possible Genesis/Sources of "Metastable" Deuterons: 1, Stellar -Supernova conditions creates the "metastable" deuteron ash or some of the neutrons in any element could be "abnormal". 2, The Neutron contains the Positronium Anion Ps- or Electronium (*e-) instead of a regular electron (e-). 3, The Deuteron contains a Terrestrial Captured Solar Neutrino. 4, Low temperature ZPE "pumping". 5, Cosmic Ray or Solar Wind Proton-Proton collisions. 6,* Spin "sense" between Proton-Neutron or Electron-Neutrino-Proton in Neutron alters binding energy 7, P-e-P ----> D + neutrino + Energy are intrinsically "Metastable". The "Solar Model" claims that the P-e-P reaction "is rare". 8, Surplus neutrons from atomic blasts or fission power plants combine with Protons in the "metastable" state. 9, Etc. ??? FJS ----- Original Message ----- From: Jones Beene To: vortex-l Sent: 10/14/05 11:13:06 AM Subject: Spam Alert: Re: Impact Induced Deuteron Stripping in D2O? Fred, Free neutrons are - pound for pound, among the most valuable commodities on earth (even if you can only weigh them theoretically). Far more valuable than diamonds or gemstones. So it is a bit of a surprise that any and all of these ideas on deuterium stripping are not being pursued more intently. Even the Fusor is ignored officially, and LENR advocates are generally ignoring the latest Mizuno work. However, I think IF one can easily strip a very small percentage of metastable deuterons, then the most efficient use of the resultant free neutrons is going to be as "makeup" neutrons - to be employed in small, mass-produced rail-mounted subcritical reactors of about 20-50 MW each, fueled by natural uranium - but not exactly like the CANDU or newer ACR700 - which design is a pressurized plumbing nightmare and does not get the full benefit of an extremely "cheap" source of neutrons - although the worst kept secret in nuclear engineering is that there is a huge anomaly in how many free neutrons one gets from a deuterium moderator. A total redesign, with an eye towards smaller, cheaper, safer, and no steam (direct electrical conversion) could have be done here in the USA anytime in the past two decades, were it not for the interests of the "club" dominated by the General Electric Company, which is second to only Halliburton-Big-Oil in political clout (and has been for 60 years previously). We have billions of dollars of sunk cost in an infrastructure of antiquated dangerous technology and subsidized enriched-fuel, dominated by GE, its minions at DoE and DoD and the other club-boys - and no willingness to change things. It is a source of amazement that some European country has not stepped-in with a better answer, but the unnecessary baggage and political problems for nuclear are even more severe there. Jones ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: Friday, October 14, 2005 7:04 AM Subject: Re: Impact Induced Deuteron Stripping in D2O? Posted earlier: > > A gram per second of D2O at 3,000 PSIG 1,000 Deg F (~3600 Joule/gram) > exiting a 0.0025 inch bore capillary tube (commercial item) at ~ 3,000 meters/sec ( ~0.7 eV kinetic energy) > impacting a plate might result in low energy stripping of "metastable" deuterons. > A back-of-the-envelope calculation to see how many neutrons and 2.0 MeV Gammas a steam power plant could produce based on one deuteron per 7,000 H2O molecules at a heat rate of 10,000 BTU/KWe (About 8.33 lbs H2O/KWe). At 1/7000 (~1.0e19 deuterons/gram) = 1e19*454*8.33 = 3.78e22 deuterons or possible stripped neutrons/KWe to recombine with an H atom to form a new deuteron releasing a 2.0 MeV gamma with a total energy of ~11 Megawatts worth of gammas. OTOH. With one per million low energy "metastable" deuterons ~ 3.78e16 neutrons/KWe and 11 watts worth of gammas. Still a lot in a 500 Megawatt (500,000 KW) power plant FJS ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Jones,
 
Possible Genesis/Sources of "Metastable" Deuterons:
 
1, Stellar -Supernova conditions creates the "metastable" deuteron ash or
some of the neutrons in any element could be "abnormal".
 
2, The Neutron contains the Positronium Anion Ps- or Electronium (*e-) instead of
a regular  electron (e-).
3, The Deuteron contains a Terrestrial Captured Solar Neutrino.
 
4, Low temperature ZPE "pumping".
 
5, Cosmic Ray or Solar Wind Proton-Proton collisions.
 
6,*  Spin "sense" between Proton-Neutron or Electron-Neutrino-Proton in Neutron alters binding energy
 
7,  P-e-P ----> D + neutrino + Energy are intrinsically "Metastable".
     The "Solar Model" claims that the P-e-P reaction "is rare".
8, Surplus neutrons from atomic blasts or fission power plants combine
with Protons in the "metastable" state.
9, Etc.  ???
 
FJS
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 10/14/05 11:13:06 AM
Subject: Spam Alert: Re: Impact Induced Deuteron Stripping in D2O?

Fred,
 
Free neutrons are - pound for pound, among the most valuable commodities on earth (even if you can only weigh them theoretically). Far more valuable than diamonds or gemstones. So it is a bit of a surprise that any and all of these ideas on deuterium stripping are not being pursued more intently. Even the Fusor is ignored officially, and LENR advocates are generally ignoring the latest Mizuno work.
 
However, I think IF one can easily strip a very small percentage of metastable deuterons, then the most efficient use of the resultant free neutrons is going to be as "makeup" neutrons - to be employed in small, mass-produced rail-mounted subcritical reactors of about 20-50 MW each, fueled by natural uranium - but not exactly like the CANDU or newer ACR700 - which design is a pressurized plumbing nightmare and does not get the full benefit of an extremely "cheap" source of neutrons - although the worst kept secret in nuclear engineering is that there is a huge anomaly in how many free neutrons one gets from a deuterium moderator.
 
A total redesign, with an eye towards smaller, cheaper, safer, and no steam (direct electrical conversion) could have be done here in the USA anytime in the past two decades, were it not for the interests of the "club" dominated by the General Electric Company, which is second to only Halliburton-Big-Oil in political clout (and has been for 60 years previously). We have billions of dollars of sunk cost in an infrastructure of antiquated dangerous technology and subsidized enriched-fuel, dominated by GE, its minions at DoE and DoD and the other club-boys - and no willingness to change things. It is a source of amazement that some European country has not stepped-in with a better answer, but the unnecessary baggage and political problems for nuclear are even more severe there.
 
Jones
 
 
 
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, October 14, 2005 7:04 AM
Subject: Re: Impact Induced Deuteron Stripping in D2O?

Posted earlier:
>
> A gram per second of D2O at 3,000 PSIG 1,000 Deg F (~3600 Joule/gram)
> exiting a 0.0025 inch bore capillary tube (commercial item) at ~ 3,000 meters/sec ( ~0.7 eV kinetic energy)
> impacting a plate might result in low energy stripping of "metastable" deuterons.
>
A back-of-the-envelope calculation to see how many neutrons and 2.0 MeV Gammas
a steam power plant could produce based on one deuteron per 7,000 H2O molecules at a heat rate
of 10,000 BTU/KWe (About 8.33 lbs H2O/KWe).
At 1/7000 (~1.0e19 deuterons/gram) = 1e19*454*8.33 = 3.78e22 deuterons or possible stripped neutrons/KWe to
recombine with an H atom to form a new deuteron releasing a 2.0 MeV gamma with
a total energy of ~11 Megawatts worth of gammas.
OTOH. With one per million low energy "metastable" deuterons ~ 3.78e16 neutrons/KWe
and 11 watts worth of gammas. Still a lot in a 500 Megawatt  (500,000 KW) power plant
 
FJS
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 14 12:58:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9EJvc4E010628; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 12:57:53 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9EJvank010601; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 12:57:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 12:57:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051014151112.0461fd60 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 15:57:03 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Secrecy, and Measuring electric input In-Reply-To: References: <434abf9b.36f23b9e.3664.2941SMTPIN_ADDED mx.googlegroups.com> <8ac65cc752d4daef85af4fa092884c17 mail.montclair.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63804 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ludwik Kowalski wrote: >1) The draft of my item #264 is now available for inspection. The URL is: > >http://blake.montclair.edu/~kowalskil/cf/264electric.html > >The issue of privacy is addressed in the first paragraph. I will remove >quotes if authors asks for it. Or I will be happy to show real names if >authors asks for it. Ludwik, Feel free to quote me by name any time. Nothing I say is confidential, ever. (I would not say it if it were.) Frankly, I think that when people say things on Internet discussion groups or during academic conferences, they should have no expectation of privacy or confidentiality, and I think it is ridiculous for anyone to complain when they are quoted. Readers here should be warned that unless you specifically say your message is secret, I will feel free to quote you by name, anywhere, anytime, and I may critique anything you say. (When I see that a message is marked "secret," I simply delete it unread, a method Arthur Clarke recommended to me. People who wish to post such information here may wish to simplify things by writing "SECRET" or "CONFIDENTIAL" in the heading. I will set up a spam filter to erase the messages.) I believe that free, unfettered dissemination of information is essential to the scientific method. That is the traditional attitude, and the basis for the LENR-CANR.org library. If you disagree and you do not want me to quote you, you should either refrain from making sensitive comments, or drop me from this list. I will not take offense if you do that. I have no desire to participate in a cabal. Naturally, when people ask me to keep something confidential I do. Over the years, people have revealed dozens of secrets to me. I always honored confidentiality because I said I would, but also because the information was worthless. I presume this discussion group is selective because we want serious participants. An ICCF conference is selective for the same reason. You insist that the speakers keep their remarks relevant to cold fusion. You do not allocate a 20 minute lecture to anyone who walks in off the street. On the other hand, anyone who pays for admission is welcome to listen. I think we should archive this discussion group and allow anyone access to the archive. Regarding the Mizuno experiment, several people have discussed the difficulties of measuring AC electricity. This does not seem relevant. The Mizuno experiment uses DC electricity only. The current fluctuates violently, but polarity is never reversed. The reasons for these fluctuations are mundane, and I expect that someone who understands the electrochemistry in detail could estimate the shortest possible fluctuation, which tells you how quickly you have to sample the values. Power meters have a many sophisticated functions, but judging by the meter specifications, most are related to multiphase power, which is also not an issue with the Mizuno experiment. Benson and Passel have essentially re-invented the thermal watt meter, which is a simple and reliable approach. The main advantage of an external thermal watt meter is that the heating element is small so the response time is quick. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 14 13:11:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9EKBGui020500; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 13:11:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9EKBDjc020443; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 13:11:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 13:11:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <001b01c5d0fb$59978c80$36027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: <410-22005105141442510 earthlink.net> <003401c5d0da$102698a0$6401a8c0@NuDell> Subject: Re: Impact Induced Deuteron Stripping in D2O? Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 15:10:39 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0018_01C5D0D1.7045C4D0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.7 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,HTML_40_50, HTML_MESSAGE,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63805 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C5D0D1.7045C4D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Fred and Jones, We tested the 35F-10 reactrrr up to near 7000 rpm before high amp trip. = A larger motor will be installed and hopefully we can ramp the speed up = to 10,500 +- 10%. After we complete the initial testing, new = configurations of the high speed rotating member will be tested. In the back of my mind, I keep sensing that a version of the reactrrr = may serve as an " el cheapo" method of stripping. Velocity shear may = achieve the same results as impacting. Richard ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Jones Beene=20 To: vortex-l=20 Sent: Friday, October 14, 2005 11:12 AM Subject: Re: Impact Induced Deuteron Stripping in D2O? Fred, Free neutrons are - pound for pound, among the most valuable = commodities on earth (even if you can only weigh them theoretically). = Far more valuable than diamonds or gemstones. So it is a bit of a = surprise that any and all of these ideas on deuterium stripping are not = being pursued more intently. Even the Fusor is ignored officially, and = LENR advocates are generally ignoring the latest Mizuno work. However, I think IF one can easily strip a very small percentage of = metastable deuterons, then the most efficient use of the resultant free = neutrons is going to be as "makeup" neutrons - to be employed in small, = mass-produced rail-mounted subcritical reactors of about 20-50 MW each, = fueled by natural uranium - but not exactly like the CANDU or newer = ACR700 - which design is a pressurized plumbing nightmare and does not = get the full benefit of an extremely "cheap" source of neutrons - = although the worst kept secret in nuclear engineering is that there is a = huge anomaly in how many free neutrons one gets from a deuterium = moderator. A total redesign, with an eye towards smaller, cheaper, safer, and no = steam (direct electrical conversion) could have be done here in the USA = anytime in the past two decades, were it not for the interests of the = "club" dominated by the General Electric Company, which is second to = only Halliburton-Big-Oil in political clout (and has been for 60 years = previously). We have billions of dollars of sunk cost in an = infrastructure of antiquated dangerous technology and subsidized = enriched-fuel, dominated by GE, its minions at DoE and DoD and the other = club-boys - and no willingness to change things. It is a source of = amazement that some European country has not stepped-in with a better = answer, but the unnecessary baggage and political problems for nuclear = are even more severe there. Jones ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Frederick Sparber=20 To: vortex-l=20 Sent: Friday, October 14, 2005 7:04 AM Subject: Re: Impact Induced Deuteron Stripping in D2O? Posted earlier: > > A gram per second of D2O at 3,000 PSIG 1,000 Deg F (~3600 = Joule/gram) > exiting a 0.0025 inch bore capillary tube (commercial item) at ~ = 3,000 meters/sec ( ~0.7 eV kinetic energy) > impacting a plate might result in low energy stripping of = "metastable" deuterons. >=20 A back-of-the-envelope calculation to see how many neutrons and 2.0 = MeV Gammas=20 a steam power plant could produce based on one deuteron per 7,000 = H2O molecules at a heat rate=20 of 10,000 BTU/KWe (About 8.33 lbs H2O/KWe). At 1/7000 (~1.0e19 deuterons/gram) =3D 1e19*454*8.33 =3D 3.78e22 = deuterons or possible stripped neutrons/KWe to=20 recombine with an H atom to form a new deuteron releasing a 2.0 MeV = gamma with a total energy of ~11 Megawatts worth of gammas. OTOH. With one per million low energy "metastable" deuterons ~ = 3.78e16 neutrons/KWe and 11 watts worth of gammas. Still a lot in a 500 Megawatt = (500,000 KW) power plant FJS ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C5D0D1.7045C4D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Fred and Jones,
We tested the 35F-10 reactrrr up to near = 7000 rpm=20 before high amp trip. A larger motor will be installed and hopefully we = can=20  ramp the speed up to 10,500 +- 10%. After we complete the initial = testing,=20 new configurations of the high speed rotating member will be=20 tested.
In the back of my mind, I keep sensing that a = version of=20 the reactrrr may serve as an " el cheapo" method of stripping. Velocity = shear=20 may achieve the same results as impacting.
 
Richard
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Jones Beene=20
Sent: Friday, October 14, 2005 = 11:12=20 AM
Subject: Re: Impact Induced = Deuteron=20 Stripping in D2O?

Fred,
 
Free neutrons are - pound for pound, among the = most=20 valuable commodities on earth (even if you can only weigh them = theoretically).=20 Far more valuable than diamonds or gemstones. So it is a bit of a = surprise=20 that any and all of these ideas on deuterium stripping are not being = pursued=20 more intently. Even the Fusor is ignored officially, and LENR = advocates are=20 generally ignoring the latest Mizuno work.
 
However, I think IF one can easily strip = a very=20 small percentage of metastable deuterons, then the most efficient use = of the=20 resultant free neutrons is going to be as "makeup" neutrons - to be = employed=20 in small, mass-produced rail-mounted subcritical reactors of about = 20-50 MW=20 each, fueled by natural uranium - but not exactly like the CANDU = or newer=20 ACR700 - which design is a pressurized plumbing nightmare and = does not=20 get the full benefit of an extremely "cheap" source of neutrons - = although the=20 worst kept secret in nuclear engineering is that there is a huge = anomaly in=20 how many free neutrons one gets from a deuterium = moderator.
 
A total redesign, with an eye towards smaller, = cheaper, safer, and no steam (direct electrical conversion) could = have be=20 done here in the USA anytime in the past two decades, were it not for = the=20 interests of the "club" dominated by the General Electric Company, = which is=20 second to only Halliburton-Big-Oil in political clout (and has been = for 60=20 years previously). We have billions of dollars of sunk cost = in an=20 infrastructure of antiquated dangerous technology and subsidized=20 enriched-fuel, dominated by GE, its minions at DoE and DoD = and the=20 other club-boys - and no willingness to change things. It is a source = of=20 amazement that some European country has not stepped-in with a better = answer,=20 but the unnecessary baggage and political problems for = nuclear are even=20 more severe there.
 
Jones
 
 
 
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Frederick Sparber
Sent: Friday, October 14, = 2005 7:04=20 AM
Subject: Re: Impact Induced = Deuteron=20 Stripping in D2O?

Posted earlier:
>
> A gram per second of D2O at 3,000 PSIG 1,000 Deg F (~3600=20 Joule/gram)
> exiting a 0.0025 inch bore capillary tube (commercial = item) at ~=20 3,000 meters/sec ( ~0.7 eV kinetic energy)
> impacting a plate might result in low energy stripping of=20 "metastable" deuterons.
>
A back-of-the-envelope calculation to see how many neutrons and = 2.0 MeV=20 Gammas
a steam power plant could produce based on one deuteron per = 7,000 H2O=20 molecules at a heat rate
of 10,000 BTU/KWe (About 8.33 lbs H2O/KWe).
At 1/7000 (~1.0e19 deuterons/gram) =3D 1e19*454*8.33 =3D = 3.78e22 deuterons=20 or possible stripped neutrons/KWe to
recombine with an H atom to form a new deuteron releasing a 2.0 = MeV=20 gamma with
a total energy of ~11 Megawatts worth of gammas.
OTOH. With one per million low energy "metastable" deuterons ~ = 3.78e16=20 neutrons/KWe
and 11 watts worth of gammas. Still a lot in a 500 = Megawatt =20 (500,000 KW) power plant
 
FJS
 
 

------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C5D0D1.7045C4D0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 14 13:54:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9EKrkCk013384; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 13:54:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9EKrhD9013349; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 13:53:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 13:53:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051014164848.04630050 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 16:53:07 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Secrecy, and Measuring electric input In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20051014151112.0461fd60 pop.mindspring.com> References: <434abf9b.36f23b9e.3664.2941SMTPIN_ADDED mx.googlegroups.com> <8ac65cc752d4daef85af4fa092884c17 mail.montclair.edu> <6.2.1.2.2.20051014151112.0461fd60 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63806 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ah. I see that I sent that message to the wrong discussion group. That was supposed to go to CMNS. Well, my whole point is that I keep no secrets. Including, of course, the existence of the CMNS group. If that is supposed to be secret, they should never have let me in. Anyone who wants to sign up for it should contact Haiko Lietz, and if he has a problem with me announcing that here . . . too bad for him. I repeat: I keep no secrets. My self-appointed mission is to tell the world everything of value that I know about cold fusion. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 14 14:07:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9EL7Fun020006; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 14:07:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9EL7Dif019982; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 14:07:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 14:07:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=AQx3kP0BJ6nqTa/QRq6/tbYUMtKgLQCBe4W5rTlWoeX7zOWoso1H48V5V28O3YFL; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220051051420538440 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Impact Induced Deuteron Stripping in D2O? Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 15:05:38 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940474ca7f4f3ad3214ef938da4fc9c9b8f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.236 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63807 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Richard, This sounds very enticing, as it substantially lowers the energy requirement needed for 1,000 meter/sec steam and would allow for impacting low temperature (D2O-Antifreeze ) or possibly D2 liquid or gas. 0.5 mv^2 = K.E./gram = 0.5 * 1.0e-3 * 1.0e6 = 500 Joule/gram Fred ----- Original Message ----- From: RC Macaulay To: vortex-l eskimo.com Sent: 10/14/05 3:12:16 PM Subject: Re: Impact Induced Deuteron Stripping in D2O? Fred and Jones, We tested the 35F-10 reactrrr up to near 7000 rpm before high amp trip. A larger motor will be installed and hopefully we can ramp the speed up to 10,500 +- 10%. After we complete the initial testing, new configurations of the high speed rotating member will be tested. In the back of my mind, I keep sensing that a version of the reactrrr may serve as an " el cheapo" method of stripping. Velocity shear may achieve the same results as impacting. Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: Jones Beene To: vortex-l Sent: Friday, October 14, 2005 11:12 AM Subject: Re: Impact Induced Deuteron Stripping in D2O? Fred, Free neutrons are - pound for pound, among the most valuable commodities on earth (even if you can only weigh them theoretically). Far more valuable than diamonds or gemstones. So it is a bit of a surprise that any and all of these ideas on deuterium stripping are not being pursued more intently. Even the Fusor is ignored officially, and LENR advocates are generally ignoring the latest Mizuno work. However, I think IF one can easily strip a very small percentage of metastable deuterons, then the most efficient use of the resultant free neutrons is going to be as "makeup" neutrons - to be employed in small, mass-produced rail-mounted subcritical reactors of about 20-50 MW each, fueled by natural uranium - but not exactly like the CANDU or newer ACR700 - which design is a pressurized plumbing nightmare and does not get the full benefit of an extremely "cheap" source of neutrons - although the worst kept secret in nuclear engineering is that there is a huge anomaly in how many free neutrons one gets from a deuterium moderator. A total redesign, with an eye towards smaller, cheaper, safer, and no steam (direct electrical conversion) could have be done here in the USA anytime in the past two decades, were it not for the interests of the "club" dominated by the General Electric Company, which is second to only Halliburton-Big-Oil in political clout (and has been for 60 years previously). We have billions of dollars of sunk cost in an infrastructure of antiquated dangerous technology and subsidized enriched-fuel, dominated by GE, its minions at DoE and DoD and the other club-boys - and no willingness to change things. It is a source of amazement that some European country has not stepped-in with a better answer, but the unnecessary baggage and political problems for nuclear are even more severe there. Jones ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: Friday, October 14, 2005 7:04 AM Subject: Re: Impact Induced Deuteron Stripping in D2O? Posted earlier: > > A gram per second of D2O at 3,000 PSIG 1,000 Deg F (~3600 Joule/gram) > exiting a 0.0025 inch bore capillary tube (commercial item) at ~ 3,000 meters/sec ( ~0.7 eV kinetic energy) > impacting a plate might result in low energy stripping of "metastable" deuterons. > A back-of-the-envelope calculation to see how many neutrons and 2.0 MeV Gammas a steam power plant could produce based on one deuteron per 7,000 H2O molecules at a heat rate of 10,000 BTU/KWe (About 8.33 lbs H2O/KWe). At 1/7000 (~1.0e19 deuterons/gram) = 1e19*454*8.33 = 3.78e22 deuterons or possible stripped neutrons/KWe to recombine with an H atom to form a new deuteron releasing a 2.0 MeV gamma with a total energy of ~11 Megawatts worth of gammas. OTOH. With one per million low energy "metastable" deuterons ~ 3.78e16 neutrons/KWe and 11 watts worth of gammas. Still a lot in a 500 Megawatt (500,000 KW) power plant FJS ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Richard,
 
This sounds very enticing, as it substantially lowers the energy requirement needed for 1,000 meter/sec
steam and would allow for impacting low temperature (D2O-Antifreeze ) or possibly D2 liquid or gas.
 
0.5 mv^2  = K.E./gram = 0.5 * 1.0e-3 * 1.0e6 =  500 Joule/gram  
 
Fred
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 10/14/05 3:12:16 PM
Subject: Re: Impact Induced Deuteron Stripping in D2O?

Fred and Jones,
We tested the 35F-10 reactrrr up to near 7000 rpm before high amp trip. A larger motor will be installed and hopefully we can  ramp the speed up to 10,500 +- 10%. After we complete the initial testing, new configurations of the high speed rotating member will be tested.
In the back of my mind, I keep sensing that a version of the reactrrr may serve as an " el cheapo" method of stripping. Velocity shear may achieve the same results as impacting.
 
Richard
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, October 14, 2005 11:12 AM
Subject: Re: Impact Induced Deuteron Stripping in D2O?

Fred,
 
Free neutrons are - pound for pound, among the most valuable commodities on earth (even if you can only weigh them theoretically). Far more valuable than diamonds or gemstones. So it is a bit of a surprise that any and all of these ideas on deuterium stripping are not being pursued more intently. Even the Fusor is ignored officially, and LENR advocates are generally ignoring the latest Mizuno work.
 
However, I think IF one can easily strip a very small percentage of metastable deuterons, then the most efficient use of the resultant free neutrons is going to be as "makeup" neutrons - to be employed in small, mass-produced rail-mounted subcritical reactors of about 20-50 MW each, fueled by natural uranium - but not exactly like the CANDU or newer ACR700 - which design is a pressurized plumbing nightmare and does not get the full benefit of an extremely "cheap" source of neutrons - although the worst kept secret in nuclear engineering is that there is a huge anomaly in how many free neutrons one gets from a deuterium moderator.
 
A total redesign, with an eye towards smaller, cheaper, safer, and no steam (direct electrical conversion) could have be done here in the USA anytime in the past two decades, were it not for the interests of the "club" dominated by the General Electric Company, which is second to only Halliburton-Big-Oil in political clout (and has been for 60 years previously). We have billions of dollars of sunk cost in an infrastructure of antiquated dangerous technology and subsidized enriched-fuel, dominated by GE, its minions at DoE and DoD and the other club-boys - and no willingness to change things. It is a source of amazement that some European country has not stepped-in with a better answer, but the unnecessary baggage and political problems for nuclear are even more severe there.
 
Jones
 
 
 
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, October 14, 2005 7:04 AM
Subject: Re: Impact Induced Deuteron Stripping in D2O?

Posted earlier:
>
> A gram per second of D2O at 3,000 PSIG 1,000 Deg F (~3600 Joule/gram)
> exiting a 0.0025 inch bore capillary tube (commercial item) at ~ 3,000 meters/sec ( ~0.7 eV kinetic energy)
> impacting a plate might result in low energy stripping of "metastable" deuterons.
>
A back-of-the-envelope calculation to see how many neutrons and 2.0 MeV Gammas
a steam power plant could produce based on one deuteron per 7,000 H2O molecules at a heat rate
of 10,000 BTU/KWe (About 8.33 lbs H2O/KWe).
At 1/7000 (~1.0e19 deuterons/gram) = 1e19*454*8.33 = 3.78e22 deuterons or possible stripped neutrons/KWe to
recombine with an H atom to form a new deuteron releasing a 2.0 MeV gamma with
a total energy of ~11 Megawatts worth of gammas.
OTOH. With one per million low energy "metastable" deuterons ~ 3.78e16 neutrons/KWe
and 11 watts worth of gammas. Still a lot in a 500 Megawatt  (500,000 KW) power plant
 
FJS
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 14 14:43:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9ELhJ8q014246; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 14:43:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9ELhIu1014231; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 14:43:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 14:43:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <008b01c5d108$3bcc5e80$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: Parenting & Power Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 14:42:53 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63808 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Among the oddities of human "society" in general - and with a sad but corresponding direct analogy in capitalism, is the fact that the most important and vital "survival" functions are often left uncontrolled, with little training or oversight, and largely left to the whims of unqualified but supposedly "trustworthy" individuals (those who have foregone the profit motive) who are "supposed" to accomplish very important procedures for the good of us all, but pretty much on their own initiative (or lack thereof). To wit: parenting and power generation. How much high level training do prospective parents really get? Hey - this is arguably the single MOST important function in society, and yet any uneducated drug addict can, and often do, participate in parenting and to more than their fair share .... or, correspondingly, how much effective oversight and dynamic innovation is really given to, or expected from, the "utilities" who are responsible for power generation? All of commerce depends on cheap power, yet the power companies are often so "tight" and over-regulated that they generally only attract those slackers who cannot get hired elsewhere (ok that is hyperbole, but there is some truth to it). We cut off the profit potential, want them to cut costs to the bone, hire underpaid staff, and yet we expect innovation and efficiency. This kind of dead-end game doesn't work well in the USA (although it does work better in Europe). If the power industry were run like the semiconductor industry, would we be in this mess? Would we have even had a TMI - if somewhere along the line, government had made the job of power generation dependent on how well it was performed ? We might not have a Moore's Law in that industry, as that is a peculiarity of reverse economy of scale - but surely there is a middle ground - for motivation. By that I mean a middle ground of incentives and disincentives - which allows some profits for the best ideas and innovation, and some deduction of pay for failure - instead of all-profits for even the most-corrupt (i.e. - the Enrons, and there were many just as guilty as Lay & Co. who did not have their hands quite so far in the till). Thinking about the situation with nuclear power in the '70s in the USA is a story of almost unbelievable incompetence, but the blame is not so much on the industry itself as on government and capitalism as a whole. When we decide to make an industry a "utility" and an over-regulated one at that - then it is almost like you are saying - this job is not important enough to do correctly. Capitalism needs a different kind of motivating influence for electric utilities. This can be done, but the real culprit as always is ourselves - i.e. capitalists wanting "government" to go away and not intervene - even where they should. Consequently US society as a whole is to blame for not stepping in and thinking this problem out before it got out of hand. Plus, "government" as a rule - absolutely hates to deal with disincentives - especially in the pay of middle management. However, often that is what works the best in these situations. Government doesn't have to do the actual work - just provide the framework for risk, rewards, and some kind of effective 'punishment' for mediocrity. Did anyone at TMI get their pay docked? Otherwise, without some motivation - why should bureaucrats at TVA care, when they are not held accountable when a plant started in 1973 does not become operational until 1995. It wasn't their fault - you've got the Sierra Club, the snail darter, GE and the PACs, Jane Fondle, Congress and so-on to blame, and with ultra-cheap hydro as a backup - who cares if things slow down to a crawl? Not a single worker at TVA was docked a nickel in pay because of what was maybe, in total, a $15 billion boondoggle. ... so why should those bureaucrats care at all if the ratepayers - who had the lowest power rates in the USA, now have near the highest, because the interest on those bonds (taken out when prime was over 10%) ends up accounting for 75% of the cost of electricity. It is not a big exaggeration to say that between TVA and WOOPS ;-) which was nearly the identical boondoggle in Washington/Oregon that for every $100/month the ratepayer is forking over nowadays - supposedly for "power," $50 is going to the bankers and bondholders for past incompetence - and not for the real "cost" of generating power at all. Bizarre. Hey if you borrow a billion at 10%, then that initial debt doubles every 7 years, and 21 years later that billion dollar plant has now rung up 8 billion in actual cost to the ratepayer(because you have to borrow the interest as well until the plant begins to function) of which 7 billion is interest alone (had not rates gone down somewhat during that time). This could be the saddest chapter in the economic history of the USA - and that was before Enron even came on the scene, to turn plain incompetence into a case study in high-level criminality. Wow. Talk about a power-rant. Did I forget to offend anyone today ? Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 14 16:47:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9ENkfhT020417; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 16:46:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9ENkbFA020375; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 16:46:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 16:46:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=o6IZj9UmulU5Qyh7I0UljBQ+7aVFjheQ6zAuET1EQBnbGU/Nt1mPRJ2Tf1YDAqZs; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200510514224521410 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Positronium in Metastable Deuterons? Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 17:45:21 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9409a06c5946ec3f43396d437c59001a853350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.165.211 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63809 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII If by chance Positronium (a bound state of an Electron-Positron pair) is absorbed by a deuteron it can change the internal binding energy of the neutron and neutron-proton in such a manner that the mass of the deuteron is unaltered. IOW. It can form Electronium (*e-) in the deuteron and substantially lower the normal 2.2 MeV proton-neutron binding energy/mass defect. Only careful observation of the decay of the stripped neutron could reveal whether or not (*e-) is involved. FJS ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

If by chance Positronium (a bound state of an Electron-Positron pair)
is absorbed by a deuteron it can change the internal binding energy of the
neutron and neutron-proton  in such a manner that the mass of the deuteron is unaltered.
 
IOW. It can form Electronium (*e-) in the deuteron and substantially
lower the normal 2.2 MeV proton-neutron binding energy/mass defect.
 
Only careful observation of the decay of the stripped neutron could reveal
whether or not (*e-) is involved.
 
FJS
 
 
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 14 17:56:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9F0tr2L026230; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 17:56:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9F0tocc026216; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 17:55:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 17:55:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <002401c5d123$218e94a0$36027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Impact Induced Deuteron Stripping in D2O Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 19:55:25 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0020_01C5D0F9.383097F0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.9 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,HTML_50_60,HTML_MESSAGE,J_CHICKENPOX_33, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63810 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C5D0F9.383097F0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0021_01C5D0F9.38321E90" ------=_NextPart_001_0021_01C5D0F9.38321E90 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankFred wrote.. >This sounds very enticing, as it substantially lowers the energy = requirement needed for 1,000 meter/sec >steam and would allow for impacting low temperature (D2O-Antifreeze ) = or possibly D2 liquid or gas. >0.5 mv^2 =3D K.E./gram =3D 0.5 * 1.0e-3 * 1.0e6 =3D 500 Joule/gram =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: RC Macaulay=20 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Sent: 10/14/05 3:12:16 PM=20 Subject: Re: Impact Induced Deuteron Stripping in D2O? Fred and Jones, We tested the 35F-10 reactrrr up to near 7000 rpm before high amp = trip. A larger motor will be installed and hopefully we can ramp the = speed up to 10,500 +- 10%. After we complete the initial testing, new = configurations of the high speed rotating member will be tested. In the back of my mind, I keep sensing that a version of the reactrrr = may serve as an " el cheapo" method of stripping. Velocity shear may = achieve the same results as impacting. Richard Fred, Using a diamond shaped high speed rotating member ( 5 sided) with a 5 = inch od we reached 60% on the VFD drive control ( 60% of 10,500rpm). At = above 7500 rpm,the peripheral velocity of the 5" dia. rotating member = should be sufficent to momentarily lower the pressure at the points to = vacuum to more than 28"hg. The shear velocity combined with the radical = re-collapsing pressure should open a few more doors to our research (we = have experienced cavitation erosion) . At 6500 rpm we made a "margarita mix" in the glass water test tank. = Not anti-freeze unless a small amount of Jose Cuerva is added< grin> Hopefully we will have a hollow shaft configuration ready soon so we = can try the microwave test.=20 Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0021_01C5D0F9.38321E90 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Fred wrote..
>This sounds very enticing, as it substantially lowers the = energy=20 requirement needed for 1,000 meter/sec
>steam and would allow for impacting low temperature = (D2O-Antifreeze )=20 or possibly D2 liquid or gas.
 
>0.5 mv^2  =3D K.E./gram =3D 0.5 * 1.0e-3 * 1.0e6 =3D  = 500=20 Joule/gram  
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 RC Macaulay
Sent: 10/14/05 3:12:16 PM =
Subject: Re: Impact Induced = Deuteron=20 Stripping in D2O?

Fred and Jones,
We tested the 35F-10 reactrrr up to = near 7000 rpm=20 before high amp trip. A larger motor will be installed and hopefully = we can=20  ramp the speed up to 10,500 +- 10%. After we complete the = initial=20 testing, new configurations of the high speed rotating member will be=20 tested.
In the back of my mind, I keep sensing that = a version=20 of the reactrrr may serve as an " el cheapo" method of stripping. = Velocity=20 shear may achieve the same results as impacting.
 
Richard
 
Fred,
 
Using a diamond shaped high speed rotating = member ( 5=20 sided) with a  5 inch od we reached 60% on the VFD drive control = ( 60% of=20 10,500rpm). At above 7500 rpm,the peripheral velocity of the 5" = dia.=20 rotating member should be sufficent to momentarily lower the pressure = at the=20 points to vacuum to more than 28"hg. The shear velocity combined with = the=20 radical re-collapsing pressure should open a few more doors to our = research=20 (we have experienced cavitation erosion) .
 At 6500 rpm we made a "margarita mix" = in the=20 glass water test tank. Not anti-freeze unless a small amount of Jose = Cuerva is=20 added< grin>
Hopefully we will have a hollow shaft = configuration=20 ready soon so we can try the microwave test.
Richard
 ------=_NextPart_001_0021_01C5D0F9.38321E90-- ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C5D0F9.383097F0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001f01c5d123$20fefed0$36027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C5D0F9.383097F0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 13 13:09:54 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9DK9KjV012561; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 13:09:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9DK8s6h012088; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 13:08:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 13:08:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: ThomasClark123 aol.com Message-ID: <85.322488e9.308018ab aol.com> Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 16:08:11 EDT Subject: Re: Electrostatic Hover Cars To: vortex-l eskimo.com, A-albionic_Subscription@yahoogroups.com CC: ThomasClark123 aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1129234090" X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5039 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: <9NheDD.A.j8C.O7rTDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63789 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friendsD Status: RO X-Status: -------------------------------1129234090 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/7/2005 5:15:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time, temalloy metro.lakes.com writes: If you ever figure out what Keely was talking about, and get a design for that machine Baron we'd all love to see it. In Keely's day in the 1800's, according to Konstantine Meyl, in his book Scalar Waves, there were more neutrino energies in the atmosphere than there are today. Keely's technologies may only work if the density of neutrino energies are higher than they are today. However I have figured out that the vortex pipes and funnels used by Keely in many of his devices, may have been used to amplify and focus electrostatic energies into a vortex to cause them to then increase the amount of neutrino energies in and around the devices to cause them work. I have postulated that if we were to place hundreds of pipes in series inside of an oval piece of metal used as a base for a hover car, and then placed a dozen tiny ram jet like funnels and bed spring like wires inside of each pipe, then this may cause the electrostatic energies around the hover car to be increased and to form into thousands of tiny vortexes, which may increase the neutrino density energies under the hover car to form a cold plasma which if pressurized properly could form a high pressure field which could cause the hover car to levitate a few feet above the ground. If the above technologies were made to work, then we could miniaturize the pipes and ram jet funnels by using nanotechnologies, to increase the electrostatic forces, and neutrino energy forces millions of times more, by increasing the number of pipes and ram jets per square inch to many millions, which would allow us to get more power per square inch and define the levitation height desired precisely by the number of nano-tech vortex chips placed in the metal body of each hover car. Baron Von Volsung, http://www.rhfweb.com/baron, Email: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html President Thomas D. Clark, Email: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html, Personal Web Page: http://www.rhfweb.com/personal New Age Production's Inc., http://www.rhfweb.com/newage Star Haven Community Services, at http://www.rhfweb.com/sh Radiation Health Foundation Trust at http://www.rhfweb.com/ Making a difference one person at a time Get informed. Inform others. -------------------------------1129234090 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In a message dated 10/7/2005 5:15:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time, temalloy= metro.lakes.com writes:
If you ever figure out what Keely was talking about,= and get a design for that machine Baron we'd all love to see it.
In Keely's day in the 1800's, according to Konstantine Meyl, in his boo= k Scalar Waves, there were more neutrino energies in the atmosphere than the= re are today.  Keely's technologies may only work if the density of neu= trino energies are higher than they are today.  However I have figured=20= out that the vortex pipes and funnels used by Keely in many of his devi= ces, may have been used to amplify and focus electrostatic energies into a v= ortex to cause them to then increase the amount of neutrino energies in and=20= around the devices to cause them work. 
 
I have postulated that if we were to place hundreds of pipes in series&= nbsp;inside of an oval piece of metal used as a base for a hover car, a= nd then placed a dozen tiny ram jet like funnels and bed spring like wires&n= bsp;inside of each pipe, then this may cause the electrostatic energies= around the hover car to be increased and to form into thousands of tiny vor= texes, which may increase the neutrino density energies under the hover car=20= to form a cold plasma which if pressurized properly could form a high pressu= re field which could cause the hover car to levitate a few feet above the gr= ound. If the above technologies were made to work, then we could miniaturize= the pipes and ram jet funnels by using nanotechnologies, to increase the el= ectrostatic forces, and neutrino energy forces millions of times more, by in= creasing the number of pipes and ram jets per square inch to many millions,=20= which would allow us to get more power per square inch and define the levita= tion height desired precisely by the number of nano-tech vortex chips p= laced in the metal body of each hover car.
 
Baron Von Volsung, http://www.rhfweb.com/baron, Email: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html
President Thomas D. Clark,= Email: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html,
Pers= onal Web Page: http://www.rhfweb.com/personal
New Age Productio= n's Inc., http://www.rhfweb.com/newage
Star Haven Community Service= s, at = http://www.rhfweb.com/sh
Radiation Health Foundation Trust at http://www.rhfweb= .com/

Making a difference one person at a time
Get informed= . Inform others.
 
-------------------------------1129234090-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 14 08:42:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9EFg1XN018267; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 08:42:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9EFftkX018080; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 08:41:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 08:41:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: ThomasClark123 aol.com Message-ID: Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 11:41:19 EDT Subject: Re: Electrostatic Hover Cars To: vortex-l eskimo.com, A-albionic_Subscription@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1129304479" X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5039 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63799 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friendsD Status: RO X-Status: -------------------------------1129304479 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/13/2005 8:36:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ThomasClark123 aol.com writes: Here below is a link to an article that discusses how to make hoverboards and hovercars work based on Forcefield Air-cushion Technology: http://www.spacemagnetics.com/hovercraft/faq_hovercraft.html I just bought a copy of their Hoverboard design notes at the above link, which is very professionally written. It mentions a patent that presently exists for electrostatically levitated vehicles (Patent 3,095,167, filed June 1975 by H.C. Dudley) to propel a missile from Earth by using a high charge on the order of 400,000 to 500,00 volts that can be used to raise the charge on a hoverboard to compensate for the difference in charge between the board and the ground. The problem is to maintain such a high charge with such close distance to the ground. -------------------------------1129304479 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In a message dated 10/13/2005 8:36:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ThomasC= lark123 aol.com writes:
Here below is a link to an article that dis= cusses how to make hoverboards and hovercars work based on Forcefield Air-cu= shion Technology:
 
I just bought a copy of their Hoverboard design notes at the above link= , which is very professionally written.  It mentions a patent that pres= ently exists for electrostatically levitated vehicles (Patent 3,095,167, fil= ed June 1975 by H.C. Dudley) to propel a missile from Earth by using a high=20= charge on the order of 400,000 to 500,00 volts that can be used to raise the= charge on a hoverboard to compensate for the difference in charge between t= he board and the ground. The problem is to maintain such a high charge with=20= such close distance to the ground. 
 
 
-------------------------------1129304479-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 14 19:03:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9F23EDY028794; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 19:03:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9F23CAe028773; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 19:03:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 19:03:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 22:00:48 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Gravity as a "Surface Tension"? In-reply-to: To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63811 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: How is the surface of a body defined? Where does one surface begin and another end? Perhaps Gravity is the result of bodies being drawn together by a subtle "surface tension" which exists between them. We don't appreciate this surface tension because our conception of surfaces is too simple. (Fractional dimensions might be involved). In other words, the surfaces of bodies are always in contact, so there is no action at a distance. This speculation is not to be confused with GR which treats bodies as warping a distinct and separate 4-D space-time surface. Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 13 17:36:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9E0ZnFW017335; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 17:36:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9E0ZgcC017299; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 17:35:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 17:35:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: ThomasClark123 aol.com Message-ID: <13f.1dcc955f.30805746 aol.com> Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 20:35:18 EDT Subject: Re: Electrostatic Hover Cars To: vortex-l eskimo.com, A-albionic_Subscription@yahoogroups.com CC: ThomasClark123 aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1129250118" X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5039 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63791 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friendsD Status: RO X-Status: -------------------------------1129250118 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here below is a link to an article that discusses how to make hoverboards and hovercars work based on Forcefield Air-cushion Technology: http://www.spacemagnetics.com/hovercraft/faq_hovercraft.html The link above also sells plans to their hoverboard designs which include discussions on electrostatic surface repulsion, a magnetic bottle to contain ionized air, a rotating spark column, paramagnetic air cushion, diamagnetic repulsion, and ferrofluidic forcefields. Baron Von Volsung, http://www.rhfweb.com/baron, Email: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html President Thomas D. Clark, Email: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html, Personal Web Page: http://www.rhfweb.com/personal New Age Production's Inc., http://www.rhfweb.com/newage Star Haven Community Services, at http://www.rhfweb.com/sh Radiation Health Foundation Trust at http://www.rhfweb.com/ Making a difference one person at a time Get informed. Inform others. -------------------------------1129250118 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Here below is a link to an article that discusses how to make hoverboar= ds and hovercars work based on Forcefield Air-cushion Technology:
 
 
The link above also sells plans to their hoverboard designs which inclu= de discussions on electrostatic surface repulsion, a magnetic bottle to cont= ain ionized air, a rotating spark column, paramagnetic air cushion, diamagne= tic repulsion, and ferrofluidic forcefields.
 
Baron Von Volsung, http://www.rhfweb.com/baron, Email: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html
President Thomas D. Clark,= Email: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html,
Pers= onal Web Page: http://www.rhfweb.com/personal
New Age Productio= n's Inc., http://www.rhfweb.com/newage
Star Haven Community Service= s, at = http://www.rhfweb.com/sh
Radiation Health Foundation Trust at http://www.rhfweb= .com/

Making a difference one person at a time
Get informed= . Inform others.
-------------------------------1129250118-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 14 08:42:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9EFg1XN018267; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 08:42:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9EFftkX018080; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 08:41:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 08:41:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: ThomasClark123 aol.com Message-ID: Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 11:41:19 EDT Subject: Re: Electrostatic Hover Cars To: vortex-l eskimo.com, A-albionic_Subscription@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1129304479" X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5039 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63799 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friendsD Status: RO X-Status: -------------------------------1129304479 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/13/2005 8:36:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ThomasClark123 aol.com writes: Here below is a link to an article that discusses how to make hoverboards and hovercars work based on Forcefield Air-cushion Technology: http://www.spacemagnetics.com/hovercraft/faq_hovercraft.html I just bought a copy of their Hoverboard design notes at the above link, which is very professionally written. It mentions a patent that presently exists for electrostatically levitated vehicles (Patent 3,095,167, filed June 1975 by H.C. Dudley) to propel a missile from Earth by using a high charge on the order of 400,000 to 500,00 volts that can be used to raise the charge on a hoverboard to compensate for the difference in charge between the board and the ground. The problem is to maintain such a high charge with such close distance to the ground. -------------------------------1129304479 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In a message dated 10/13/2005 8:36:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ThomasC= lark123 aol.com writes:
Here below is a link to an article that dis= cusses how to make hoverboards and hovercars work based on Forcefield Air-cu= shion Technology:
 
I just bought a copy of their Hoverboard design notes at the above link= , which is very professionally written.  It mentions a patent that pres= ently exists for electrostatically levitated vehicles (Patent 3,095,167, fil= ed June 1975 by H.C. Dudley) to propel a missile from Earth by using a high=20= charge on the order of 400,000 to 500,00 volts that can be used to raise the= charge on a hoverboard to compensate for the difference in charge between t= he board and the ground. The problem is to maintain such a high charge with=20= such close distance to the ground. 
 
 
-------------------------------1129304479-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 14 21:02:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9F41vPN024065; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 21:02:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9F41lIH023931; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 21:01:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 21:01:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=ix.netcom.com; b=GgmSmJyWoyF4pgbHpfti0fyz4K54tzjBtYGDzb3scLRwfwee2MTyMoYwCckmX67u; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22005106154219230 ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.1.47.0 (Windows) From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: "vortex-l" Subject: FW: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday October 14, 2005 Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 21:02:19 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d8c3dac6d27188e51ab561f2080ad05f9fc965d6d45243e2d1350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 216.175.101.209 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63812 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > [Original Message] From: What's New To: Date: 10/14/2005 1:43:37 PM Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday October 14, 2005 WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 14 Oct 05 Washington, DC 1. SUPREME IRONY: SHOULD NOMINEES BE QUESTIONED ABOUT SCIENCE? After nominating Harriet Miers for a seat on the Supreme Court, President Bush sought to reassure religious conservatives by stressing Miers' evangelical Christian roots. Bush said it's part of who she is. He's right, but traditionally the personal religious views of nominees are not taken up in the confirmation process. If the First Amendment is upheld, it shouldn't matter. So forget religion. Far more important in the Twenty-First Century is the nominee's views on science. There are, after all, few cases that come before the courts today that do not have a scientific component. Scientists must construct a list of basic questions that would give some insight into the nominee's vie on science. For example: do all physical events result from earlier physical events, or can they be caused by clasping your hands, bowing your head, and wishing? Send your suggestions to What's New. WN will print the best of them. 2. FAITH-BASED GOVERNMENT: SENATOR BROWNBACK(R-KS)HEARS THE CALL. Senator Sam Brownback has been more public than other Republican senators in raising questions about the nomination of Harriet Miers. A prayer-group-Republican from Kansas who wants to be President, Brownback has an open mind on the question of religion in politics: it can be either a Protestant conservative, or conservative Catholic. Brownback, now Catholic, has been both. 3. TOURIST CLASS: BILLIONAIRE BACK FROM INTERNATIONAL SPACE SPA. Gregory Olsen, the third tourist to buy a $20M ticket to the ISS http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN02/wn042602.html, has returned from his week at the world's most exclusive spa. He gushed to an Associated Press reporter: "It was kind of like this wondrous thing." Unlike Dennis Tito, who had stomach problems during his week at the ISS, Olsen played the fantasy-adventure game all the way, even taking along his own science experiments. WN is confident that Olsen's scientific studies, whatever they are, will be as important as those conducted by NASA on the ISS. 4. SHENZHOU VI: CHINA LAUNCHES TWO TAIKONAUTS ON LIVE TELEVISION. Wednesday, in a demonstration of growing confidence in its human space-flight program, China launched two taikonauts on a five day mission to low-Earth orbit, and did it in full view of the world. While Shenzhou VI poses no military threat, it is a demonstration of economic strength; China can now afford to squander vast sums on pointless programs. Happily, this serves world peace by diverting China's resources from more dangerous adventures. 5. 2005 PHYSICS IG NOBEL: THE PRIZE IS NOT ALWAYS TO THE SWIFT. Like that other prize with a similar name, you gotta be patient. This year, the Ig went to John Maidstone from Australia for an experiment to measure the flow of black tar through a funnel. Begun in 1927, one glob drips every nine years. He shared the Ig with a colleague who died between the second and third drops. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.bobpark.org What's New is moving to a different listserver and our subscription process has changed. To change your subscription status please visit this link: http://listserv.umd.edu/cgi-bin/wa? SUBED1=bobparks-whatsnew&A=1 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 15 10:08:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9FH8Fqq024443; Sat, 15 Oct 2005 10:08:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9FH8Ckf024422; Sat, 15 Oct 2005 10:08:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 10:08:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=Ts5RTFspWdTfKZA7eQIteFy25A7svnqXqIRIrMuGMWF6qYFjzXYUDXFsFh939JAW; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220051061516637560 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Positronium in Metastable Deuterons? Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 11:06:37 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9409d4509239e8431e83e96ed357ffe2b34350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.54 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63813 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Posted earlier: > > If by chance Positronium (a bound state of an Electron-Positron pair) > is absorbed by a deuteron it can change the internal binding energy of the > neutron and neutron-proton in such a manner that the mass of the deuteron is unaltered. > Metastable Deuteron Breeder? The 1.46 MeV Gamma from naturally occurring Potassium-40 can create a Positronium pair In The Neutron Portion of The Deuteron. Potassium & Deuterium in the Biosphere: 65.8 ppm in sea water, 320 ppm in humans Potassium-40, 0.0117 atom percent Deuterium, 0.0115 atom percent Mix a high concentration of Potassium-40 with D2O?? FJS ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Posted earlier:
>
> If by chance Positronium (a bound state of an Electron-Positron pair)
> is absorbed by a deuteron it can change the internal binding energy of the
> neutron and neutron-proton  in such a manner that the mass of the deuteron is unaltered.
>
Metastable Deuteron Breeder?
 
The 1.46 MeV Gamma from naturally occurring Potassium-40 can create
a Positronium pair In The Neutron Portion of The Deuteron.
 
Potassium & Deuterium in the Biosphere:
 
65.8 ppm in sea water,
 
320 ppm in humans 
 
Potassium-40,  0.0117 atom percent
 
Deuterium,  0.0115 atom percent
 
Mix a high concentration of Potassium-40 with D2O??
 
FJS

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 15 10:21:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9FHKvw6030365; Sat, 15 Oct 2005 10:21:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9FHKtqJ030338; Sat, 15 Oct 2005 10:20:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 10:20:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=gFM4f0iQO4TMbYxgr/oJ/G1mmNpFaRRHo/pn9pvO/P6BiXFDUI/YqE9BO9JdU5wo; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220051061516193710 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Impact Induced Deuteron Stripping in D2O Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 11:19:37 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9401b5805de864c1f0f744283629a13c236350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.54 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63814 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Richard, I was thinking more in terms of a high speed motor-driven "slinger" like a one foot long propeller/tube rotating at 60,000 rpm to get a tip velocity of up to 1,000 meters/sec with the D2O slowly introduced (up to one gram/sec) at the axis. Even still, the kinetic energy per gram-second is 500 joules/sec or 500 watts. Hess' Law prevails. :-) Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Richard,
 
I was thinking more in terms of a high speed motor-driven
"slinger" like a one foot long propeller/tube rotating at
60,000 rpm to get a tip velocity of up to  1,000 meters/sec with
the D2O slowly introduced (up to one gram/sec) at the axis.
 
Even still, the kinetic energy per gram-second is 500 joules/sec
or 500 watts.
 
Hess' Law prevails.   :-)
 
Fred
 
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 15 11:28:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9FIRKYg006139; Sat, 15 Oct 2005 11:27:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9FIRJnk006111; Sat, 15 Oct 2005 11:27:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 11:27:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <011001c5d1b6$04c2de60$1714fea9 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <410-220051061516637560 earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Positronium in Metastable Deuterons? Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 11:26:53 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_010D_01C5D17B.57EA6990" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <59VSdB.A.VfB.GoUUDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63815 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_010D_01C5D17B.57EA6990 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable One further item which should be mentioned in this regard (metastable = deuterium) - is a methodology combining the theories of Don Hotson and = R. Mills into the Sparber electronium-triad idea.=20 Wow, talk about a hybrid - almost like the Satyr of the quantum world. However, it is rather logical IF the expected "long term" situation = regarding redundant ground states of hydrogen, especially when an = "older" solar hydrino has reached the 1/137, or final state and expected = end-product of shrinkage, then it will be almost neutral, like a neutron = but with a larger negative near-field... setting the stage, as it were. ...then it seems to me in this state, that there should be no problem = with this being when Don Hotson's epo-BEC-aether is disrupted from it = quiescent state by that incredibly fast moving negative near-field of = the 1/137 hydrino - and the electronium triad is formed as a result. The = final product will look to any proton like a "large" but energy = deficient neutron - even with the extra mass of the Ps added. This methodology could be enhanced by 40K in two different ways - = catalytic shrinkage and pair production. Jones ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Frederick Sparber=20 To: vortex-l eskimo.com=20 Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2005 9:06 AM Subject: Re: Positronium in Metastable Deuterons? Posted earlier: >=20 > If by chance Positronium (a bound state of an Electron-Positron = pair)=20 > is absorbed by a deuteron it can change the internal binding energy = of the=20 > neutron and neutron-proton in such a manner that the mass of the = deuteron is unaltered. >=20 Metastable Deuteron Breeder? The 1.46 MeV Gamma from naturally occurring Potassium-40 can create a Positronium pair In The Neutron Portion of The Deuteron. Potassium & Deuterium in the Biosphere: 65.8 ppm in sea water,=20 320 ppm in humans =20 Potassium-40, 0.0117 atom percent Deuterium, 0.0115 atom percent Mix a high concentration of Potassium-40 with D2O?? FJS ------=_NextPart_000_010D_01C5D17B.57EA6990 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
One further item which should be mentioned in = this regard=20 (metastable deuterium) - is a methodology combining the theories of Don = Hotson=20 and R. Mills into the Sparber electronium-triad idea.
 
Wow, talk about a hybrid - almost like the Satyr = of the=20 quantum world.
 
However, it is rather logical IF the expected = "long term"=20 situation regarding redundant ground states of hydrogen, especially when = an=20 "older" solar hydrino has reached the 1/137, or final state and expected = end-product of shrinkage, then it will be almost neutral, like a neutron = but=20 with a larger negative near-field... setting the stage, as it = were.
 
...then it seems to me in this state, that there = should be=20 no problem with this being when Don Hotson's epo-BEC-aether is disrupted = from it=20 quiescent state by that incredibly fast moving negative near-field of = the 1/137=20 hydrino - and the electronium triad is formed as a result. The final = product=20 will look to any proton like a "large" but energy deficient = neutron - even=20 with the extra mass of the Ps added.
 
This methodology could be enhanced by 40K in two = different=20 ways - catalytic shrinkage and pair production.
 
Jones
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Frederick Sparber
Sent: Saturday, October 15, = 2005 9:06=20 AM
Subject: Re: Positronium in = Metastable=20 Deuterons?

Posted earlier:
>
> If by chance Positronium (a bound state of an = Electron-Positron=20 pair)
> is absorbed by a deuteron it can change the internal binding = energy=20 of the
> neutron and neutron-proton  in such a manner that the = mass of=20 the deuteron is unaltered.
>
Metastable Deuteron Breeder?
 
The 1.46 MeV Gamma from naturally occurring Potassium-40 can = create
a Positronium pair In The Neutron Portion of The Deuteron.
 
Potassium & Deuterium in the Biosphere:
 
65.8 ppm in sea water,
 
320 ppm in humans 
 
Potassium-40,  0.0117 atom percent
 
Deuterium,  0.0115 atom percent
 
Mix a high concentration of Potassium-40 with D2O??
 
FJS

------=_NextPart_000_010D_01C5D17B.57EA6990-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 16 10:41:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9GHeC7S023266; Sun, 16 Oct 2005 10:40:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9GHe3Zr023218; Sun, 16 Oct 2005 10:40:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 10:40:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=VakCXnezzTM3UDJiofiYRi9zTgZsiTVhxqDsLiGJ7ixNSbyIyF9DTZMIc9N2eIzy; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200510016163816890 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Checked Your Potassium Level Lately? Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 11:38:16 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9404a733af1a2daf56a84982be3f387db73350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.149 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63816 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII If you glow in the dark, it's a tad high. :-) http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~scdiroff/lds/QuantumRelativity/RadioactiveHumanBody/RadioactiveHumanBody.html "There are 1.2 radioactive atoms of 40K for every 10,000 nonradioactive atoms of potassium. There is of the order of 140 g of potassium in an adult who weighs 70 kg, and 0.0169 g consists of the 40K isotope. This amount of 40K disintegrates at the rate of 266,000 atoms per minute. Of every 100 disintegrations, 89 result in the release of beta particles with maximum energy of 1.33 MeV, and 11 result in gamma photons with an energy of 1.46 MeV. All of the beta particles and about 50 percent of the gamma rays are absorbed in the body, giving annual doses of 16 mrad from the beta particles and 2 mrad from the gamma rays." ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

If you glow in the dark, it's a tad high.  :-)
 
 
"There are 1.2 radioactive atoms of 40K for every 10,000 nonradioactive atoms of potassium. There is of the order of 140 g of potassium in an adult who weighs 70 kg, and 0.0169 g consists of the 40K isotope. This amount of 40K disintegrates at the rate of 266,000 atoms per minute. Of every 100 disintegrations, 89 result in the release of beta particles with maximum energy of 1.33 MeV, and 11 result in gamma photons with an energy of 1.46 MeV. All of the beta particles and about 50 percent of the gamma rays are absorbed in the body, giving annual doses of 16 mrad from the beta particles and 2 mrad from the gamma rays."
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 16 15:11:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9GMBLwf026295; Sun, 16 Oct 2005 15:11:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9GMBH9q026250; Sun, 16 Oct 2005 15:11:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 15:11:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 18:08:29 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Secrecy, and Measuring electric input In-reply-to: <6.2.1.2.2.20051014164848.04630050 pop.mindspring.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63817 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Are they discussing XXX material? Harry Jed Rothwell wrote: > Ah. I see that I sent that message to the wrong discussion group. > > That was supposed to go to CMNS. Well, my whole point is that I keep no > secrets. Including, of course, the existence of the CMNS group. If that is > supposed to be secret, they should never have let me in. Anyone who wants > to sign up for it should contact Haiko Lietz, and if he has a problem with > me announcing that here . . . too bad for him. > > I repeat: I keep no secrets. My self-appointed mission is to tell the world > everything of value that I know about cold fusion. > > - Jed > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 16 17:33:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9H0X250022004; Sun, 16 Oct 2005 17:33:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9H0WxTS021966; Sun, 16 Oct 2005 17:32:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 17:32:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20051016132400.028f26e0 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 17:28:29 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: The War on Ignorance Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_-1345121031==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63818 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_-1345121031==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed (Isn't it the American thing to do, have a "war" on everything?) ;) s S. Robert Lichter President STATS 2100 L St NW Suite 300 Washington DC 20037 Dear Dr. Lichter, (Source: http://www.stats.org/record.jsp?type=news&ID=314, Dubious Data of the Past Decade, January 01 2000, The worst science reporting of the 90s) stats at George Mason University: "Cold Fusion Confusion: A decade later their results have never been replicated." Nothing could be further from the truth. Please let me know if I can be of any assistance. Sincerely, Steven B. Krivit Editor, New Energy Times Executive Director, New Energy Institute Inc. References enclosed. --=====================_-1345121031==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" (Isn't it the American thing to do, have a "war" on everything?)

;)

s


S. Robert Lichter
President
STATS
2100 L St NW   Suite 300  
Washington DC 20037

Dear Dr. Lichter,
 
(Source: http://www.stats.org/record.jsp?type=news&ID=314, Dubious Data of the Past Decade, January 01 2000, The worst science reporting of the 90s) stats at George Mason University: "Cold Fusion Confusion: A decade later their results have never been replicated."
 

Nothing could be further from the truth.
 
Please let me know if I can be of any assistance.
 
 
Sincerely,
 
 
 
Steven B. Krivit
Editor, New Energy Times
Executive Director, New Energy Institute Inc.
 

 
References enclosed.

--=====================_-1345121031==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 17 08:43:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9HFgvUH013792; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 08:43:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9HFgmHH013711; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 08:42:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 08:42:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <43530D3F.9D39A927 tcq.net> References: <5DFB65ACD9B42B49AB64D7C5F69629775A2A37 digsmxmbx08.Fairview.org> <43530D3F.9D39A927 tcq.net> Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 10:42:29 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: MUFON Conference Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63819 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vortexians; I'm quite fascinated with the implications of UFO's and the National Security State. The other speaker will talk about Wilhelm Reich's Orgone accumulators, which have some interesting applications in energy, and medicine. > > > Subject: Rich Dolan & Peter Robbins: Two Great Reasons To Attend 3rd >> UFO Crash Conference >> >> Two Great Reasons To Attend The 3rd UFO Crash Conference: >> >> Rich Dolan & Peter Robbins >> >> Broomfield CO Wednesday October 12, 2005 At this years Mutual UFO >> Network International Conference (MUFON) in Denver there was only one >> speaker to receive a standing ovation. Can you guess? It was Richard >> Dolan. His first book, UFOs and the National Security State is a >> landmark in the ufology literature. It can be ordered on-line here. >> >> His talk at the 3rd UFO Crash Conference will be on the UFO Secrecy: > > Political and Ethical Implications. >> > > >> Join us this year and sign up on line at www.ufoconference.com, or >> call me and we can do it over the phone, faxes and mail work too. If >> you need more information or would like to talk with me personally >> please call 720-887-8171. >> >> Looking forward to seeing you there and having a great time. >> >> Sincerely, >> >> Ryan S. Wood >> >> Conference Chairman >> >> rswood majesticdocuments.com >> >> 14004 Quail Ridge Drive >> >> Broomfield, CO 80020 >> >> FAX: 720-887-8239 >> > > P. S. Check out my new book - Majic Eyes Onlywww.majiceyesonly.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 17 09:00:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9HFxSkJ022764; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 08:59:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9HFxL2S022657; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 08:59:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 08:59:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=EwCdO0UDzi6iLe2zxxdhJW32exXgOJJ7q+fCUpTuRbCbb2/XpQsxC3YAas5rSVcM; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200510117145728220 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Positronium in Metastable Deuterons? Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 09:57:28 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9400b0c88f8c8bab0d0c58633dfc1f304dd350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.120.42 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63820 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Posted earlier: > > If by chance Positronium (a bound state of an Electron-Positron pair) > is absorbed by a deuteron it can change the internal binding energy of the > neutron and neutron-proton in such a manner that the mass of the deuteron is unaltered. > I'll stick my neck out further yet, and claim that a direct hit of a Proton by a Gamma Photon with energy equal to greater than 1.02 MeV can create a Permanent Pair "Inside" The Proton without altering it's Mass, Charge, or Spin, but only it's Radius. A Quark radius Thing: delta R = hbar/delta mc (interacting quark circles or disks exchange mass-energy the same as the interaction of rotating flywheels). Water from Swimming Pool Reactors etc., should be loaded with these Hydrino-former Protons as well as "Metastable" Deuterons. The radioisotope producing "ports" of fission reactors could also activate Protons and simultaneously produce "Metastable" Deuterons. 15 cm of water will reduce 1.02 + Mev to 1/2 initial intensity 2^n * 15 cm will get most of it. FJS ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Posted earlier:
>
> If by chance Positronium (a bound state of an Electron-Positron pair)
> is absorbed by a deuteron it can change the internal binding energy of the
> neutron and neutron-proton  in such a manner that the mass of the deuteron is unaltered.
>
I'll stick my neck out further yet, and claim that a direct hit of a Proton by a Gamma Photon
with energy equal to greater than 1.02 MeV can create a Permanent Pair "Inside" The Proton
without altering it's Mass, Charge, or Spin, but only it's Radius. A Quark radius Thing:
 
delta R = hbar/delta mc   (interacting quark circles or disks exchange mass-energy
the same as the interaction of rotating flywheels).
 
Water from Swimming Pool Reactors etc., should be loaded with these Hydrino-former Protons
as well as "Metastable" Deuterons. The radioisotope producing "ports" of fission
reactors could also activate Protons and simultaneously produce "Metastable" Deuterons.
 
15 cm of water will reduce 1.02 + Mev to 1/2 initial intensity  2^n * 15 cm will get most of it.
 
FJS
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 17 09:01:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9HG0bpi023403; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 09:00:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9HG0UXS023292; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 09:00:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 09:00:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051017113645.04e0b350 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 11:59:28 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Parenting & Power In-Reply-To: <008b01c5d108$3bcc5e80$6401a8c0 NuDell> References: <008b01c5d108$3bcc5e80$6401a8c0 NuDell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_6449765==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63821 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_6449765==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed This is a good essay. Jones Beene wrote: >. . . how much effective oversight and dynamic innovation is really given >to, or expected from, the "utilities" who are responsible for power >generation? All of commerce depends on cheap power, yet the power >companies are often so "tight" and over-regulated that they generally only >attract those slackers who cannot get hired elsewhere (ok that is >hyperbole, but there is some truth to it). No doubt there is plenty of blame to go around. But we should remember that this mess was partly caused by a history of success. When power generation was invented in the late 19th century, the "utility" model really was best, in my opinion. The same goes for the telephone network. When unregulated small telephone companies competed openly in the 1880s, the results were utter chaos, with wires hanging everywhere. The utility model gradually became obsolete. What works well at one stage in the development of the technology may be dysfunctional 50 years later. >Capitalism needs a different kind of motivating influence for electric >utilities. This can be done, but the real culprit as always is ourselves - >i.e. capitalists wanting "government" to go away and not intervene - even >where they should. Quite right. Capitalism tends to be its own worst enemy, just as Marx said. >Government doesn't have to do the actual work - just provide the framework >for risk, rewards, and some kind of effective 'punishment' for mediocrity. >Did anyone at TMI get their pay docked? Yes. An NRC engineer named Creswell investigated two previous accidents that were almost exactly the same as TMI. He repeatedly warned management that this reactor design was unreliable, and he pointed out that the problem could easily be fixed for a few dollars with a new sensor. As you might expect, he was harassed and ridiculed, and his report was suppressed. After TMI he was given a pat on the head, awarded $4,000 for diligence, but soon after that the harassment was redoubled and he was forced out, in 1980. The NRC officials who were directly responsible for suppressing his report and approving the TMI design were given $10,000 rewards. See: D. Ford, Three Mile Island - Thirty Minutes to Meltdown, (Penguin Books, 1982). So despite what you say, the system does work, and people are rewarded and punished. - Jed --=====================_6449765==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" This is a good essay.

Jones Beene wrote:

. . . how much effective oversight and dynamic innovation is really given to, or expected from, the "utilities" who are responsible for power generation? All of commerce depends on cheap power, yet the power companies are often so "tight" and over-regulated that they generally only attract those slackers who cannot get hired elsewhere (ok that is hyperbole, but there is some truth to it).

No doubt there is plenty of blame to go around.

But we should remember that this mess was partly caused by a history of success. When power generation was invented in the late 19th century, the "utility" model really was best, in my opinion. The same goes for the telephone network. When unregulated small telephone companies competed openly in the 1880s, the results were utter chaos, with wires hanging everywhere. The utility model gradually became obsolete. What works well at one stage in the development of the technology may be dysfunctional 50 years later.


Capitalism needs a different kind of motivating influence for electric utilities. This can be done, but the real culprit as always is ourselves - i.e. capitalists wanting "government" to go away and not intervene - even where they should.

Quite right. Capitalism tends to be its own worst enemy, just as Marx said.


Government doesn't have to do the actual work - just provide the framework for risk, rewards, and some kind of effective 'punishment' for mediocrity. Did anyone at TMI get their pay docked?

Yes. An NRC engineer named Creswell investigated two previous accidents that were almost exactly the same as TMI. He repeatedly warned management that this reactor design was unreliable, and he pointed out that the problem could easily be fixed for a few dollars with a new sensor. As you might expect, he was harassed and ridiculed, and his report was suppressed. After TMI he was given a pat on the head, awarded $4,000 for diligence, but soon after that the harassment was redoubled and he was forced out, in 1980. The NRC officials who were directly responsible for suppressing his report and approving the TMI design were given $10,000 rewards. See: D. Ford, Three Mile Island - Thirty Minutes to Meltdown, (Penguin Books, 1982). So despite what you say, the system does work, and people are rewarded and punished.

- Jed
--=====================_6449765==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 17 13:04:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9HK31lj017048; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 13:03:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9HK2sVu016960; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 13:02:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 13:02:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <017501c5d355$abc14c60$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: Is Alkane-Aquanol the Oil-free answer? Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 13:02:15 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63822 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Who to believe ? ... and/or how much fermentable "biomass/biowaste" is really available in the USA for oil substitutes, without raising food costs ? It seems the good-old petroleum industry is secretly funding attempts to cloud and distort this important issue, using older and misleading information - now that some brand new techniques are coming on the horizon. Here is what is being said about the flawed Patzek and Pimentel studies by the Ag-industry: http://www.ncga.com/ethanol/debunking/BehindStudy.htm A few months ago, Fred posted the story about the "Green Diesel" breakthrough, where it is claimed that the current delivered unsubsidized cost of biomass is comparable, or even cheaper than petroleum-based feedstock on both an energy and supply basis. The story is by George Huber, but there is dispute on the supply issue of biomass, as the debunking above indicates. The tonnage of available future biomass is not clear - but it could be as much as an order of magnitude greater than once thought at a fully sustainable level. Determining that figure should be a huge national policy issue - if we really want to get away from Arab oil. This goal of sustainability in transportation fuel may be otherwise doable in the short-term, given the efficiency of the American farmer - IF there is enough usable land or forests. We are not talking food here - fast-growing grass and lumber (or ag-waste) is what we need as feedstock for - dare I call it A-A? But first let's take the recent advancements in this trend towards biofuels to the next logical step - and perhaps something synergistically intoxicating will be the indistilled-essence of these converging but underfunded trends... FORGET the gasoline- additive part - can we just ban Arab oil altogether? Perhaps. To begin, we can build on the advances described in June 3 issue of "Science, Chemical and Biological Engineering" where there is describe a four-phase catalytic reactor in which biomass-derived carbohydrates can be converted to liquid alkanes, resulting in an ideal additive for diesel transportation fuel. That alone is one tactic. But when we combine that with two other new bio-breakthroughs and trends .... particularly when a new catalytic plasma combustion process is substituted, the picture begins to look much more interesting. This convergence of biotech with manufactured energy systems seems to be an emergent message from the American heartland these days. About 67 percent of the energy required to make ethanol is (was once) wasted - consumed in growing, fermenting and distilling grains such as corn. Unacceptable. Growing corn itself is energy intensive, as is sugar cane (used in Brazil). As a result, ethanol production used to create only at most 1.1 units of energy for every unit of energy consumed, and some studies said less than 1. Brain-dead but not the end-of-story, by far. In the UW-Madison process, alkanes were found to spontaneously separate from water. No additional heating or distillation is required. The result is the creation of 2.2 units of energy for every unit of energy consumed in energy production. But there is more to this that they did not see. The interesting thing is that these alkanes can be used with ethanol instead of with petroleum. The UW-Madison process does not go far enough in two potential ways ... the manufacturing of alkanes and ethanol should first be done together - this can be combined into a new hybrid zero-distillation process, as well as the new engine for burning the combined output, as a stand-alone aqueous fuel! To back-track. About 75 percent of the dry weight of herbaceous and woody biomass is composed of carbohydrates. Several methods including the UW-Madison process can break down woody carbohydrates into partial fermentables, either ethanol or alkanes results, which two processes can be made synergetic in combination. The people at Gallo, and others considering getting into Ag-fuel and who know a thing of two about fermentation say that by using treated bio-waste as feed stock, instead of grapes or grain, it is easy to produce a fermented bulk liquid fuel for $1 gallon, with plenty of profit and no funny accounting but - catch-22 - the fuel is at least 85% water (30 proof). Above that level, fermentation almost stops. BUT first there is still a lot of unused carbos in the "mash" since it was woody. This mash now goes to the Alkane reactor. This should result in an combined Alkane-Aquanol fuel with an effective 50-proof or 25% combustible. Yet - In the past this was still too low to burn in an ICE. One of the problems with ethanol as a transportation fuel is (in addition to cost and farmland depletion) - it normally needs to be enriched to well over 100 "proof" in order to ignite. Now things have changed with a new catalytic burning process. More on that below - first we need to get to 50 proof. Going higher than 15% ethanol formerly required distillation, as mentioned which is too energy intensive. Efforts have been partially successful to enrich (dehydrate) fermented ethanol by using reverse-osmosis, but the pumping and other high costs (filters) of this process make reverse-osmosis of little economic advantage over distillation. Dehydration can also work by using "cold" instead of heat to enrich - as water freezes long before ethanol. This is the cold filtering process is cost effective in winter. There are ceramic and other filtration techniques that can get you near to near 50 proof ethanol cheaply year-round, but it would seem like the Alkane addition is the best overall answer, since the alkanes can themselves be derived from the unfermentable mash (retreated) which is left over after ethanol is first fermented. And since alkanes will dissolve easily in ethanol-water, but not water alone, the combination can give high "effective proof". The best answer to this overall situation, then appears, to fully develop a biomass hybrid fuel process but in conjunction with a new technique to "burn" diluted ethanol/alkanes (effectively at 25% or 50 proof). This was previously unheard of till recently, but wait... those spud-heads in Moscow have something new up their collective sleeves... ... and we ain't talking about Stoly wodka neither, nosiree... and not about that red-Moscow with funny-looking churches, nope... this is home grown stuff from the heartland: the National Institute for Advanced Transportation Technology at the University of Idaho in Moscow, ID. http://www.webs1.uidaho.edu/niatt/research/UTC_projects/year4/Aquanol.htm These fine folks have been working on a CATALYTIC IGNITION AQUANOL REACTOR & ENGINE. They are not there yet but they are hinting that using a catalyzed plasma "sparking" arrangement, they can burn this aqueous ethanol. They even call it AQUANOL. Plus this fuel would surely benefit from adding alkanes to the mix. The national goal would be to develop and utilize an undistilled aqueous (upper "wine-grade" fuel - 50 proof alcohol/alkane mix) for the next 10-20 years, as a full replacement for Arab Oil ... and in combination with North American petroleum in a two-tier system - and hope that by then (2020 or before) we can figure out how to produce and store hydrogen cheaply using solar-wind-nuclear - and then merge that gradually into the mix of new energy sources. This stopgap fuel - Alkane-Aquanol is not an additive - but will totally replace gasoline in a percentage of specially designed vehicles. This would be especially beneficial in the Ag-states using ag-waste as feedstock, and giving US auto companies preference in the new engines -although in Idaho, where they grow potatoes so cheaply the claim is that they can supply the whole USA with subgrade tater-starch mixed with biowaste, and eliminate ALL imported oil just from Idaho... sounds a bit deep-fried. Anyway, this is sustainable agribusiness and it is a totally new take on the "big-picture" fuel situation - Alkane-Aquanol, using no (or little) grain, and most of all, zero distillation, and in special engines which burn this type of highly aqueous mélange. It does little for CO2 abatement nor global warming, but first things first. And even if it could be done - realistically - with taxes and markup (which are necessary) this fuel will sell for about $2 gallon and you will need twice as much to go the same distance - so it is no big bargain - but it "beets" the "hay" out of forking over $75 for every stinking barrel of crude to a bunch of folks who hate the West - and with a religious fervor that is only surpassed by their own internal-hatred for whichever other sects of Islam they aren't in - (kind of like the Catholics/Protestants in Ireland) and they will only use the money we pay them for oil - to destroy us, sooner or later. So isn't it time to start over from square one on a National energy policy - get out of IRAQ now - get rid of petro-dollar-PACs, and actually BAN Arab oil ! Even if we have to subsidize the American farmer - this is preferable to subsidizing the Halliburton-clique of tax evading crooks. Let the Europeans and Arabs deal with Iraq and those other problems in the Mid-East. No one proclaimed us as world cops. What are we doing there? We CAN walk away from it, but only if we can become self-sufficient on transportation fuel. This is doable in the short-term ...IF, that is, we indeed do have the necessary biomass available. These people think there is plenty: http://www.sustainableenergy.org/resources/technologies/biomass.htm Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 17 13:26:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9HKPTBJ031458; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 13:25:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9HKPMk7031385; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 13:25:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 13:25:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051017161255.04f51eb0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:24:34 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Is Alkane-Aquanol the Oil-free answer? In-Reply-To: <017501c5d355$abc14c60$6401a8c0 NuDell> References: <017501c5d355$abc14c60$6401a8c0 NuDell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <8ppdND.A.GqH.viAVDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63823 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >The tonnage of available future biomass is not clear - but it could be as >much as an order of magnitude greater than once thought at a fully >sustainable level. Again let me point out that Pimentel and others show that the total annual biomass production in North America amounts to half of our fossil fuel consumption. Photosynthesis is only 0.1% efficient, and plants do not grow in winter. Even under ideal circumstances I do not see how biomass could supply more than a few percent of our total energy needs. Of course it is a good idea to extract energy from leftover agricultural products and garbage, and this should be done with maximum efficiency. It has the additional benefit of reducing waste and pollution. So this kind of research is important. But it resembles research to improve the efficiency of things like refrigerators or computer power supplies: at best, it only addresses a small part of the problem. Liquid fuel is most useful for transportation. If plug-in hybrids greatly reduce the need for liquid fuel, then perhaps biomass can supply most of our needs. But my guess is that liquid or gas fuel synthesize with solar energy or fission will be cheaper in the long run, and this could easily be done on a scale large enough to replace all chemical fuel. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 17 14:15:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9HLEICN028258; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 14:14:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9HLE3RH028075; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 14:14:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 14:14:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4354141D.1020302 ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 15:14:05 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Is Alkane-Aquanol the Oil-free answer? References: <017501c5d355$abc14c60$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051017161255.04f51eb0@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20051017161255.04f51eb0 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63824 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In addition to what Jed points out, I would like to remind the nonfarmer readers that a large fraction of biomass is returned to the soil, without which productivity would drop. Once the value of this biomass increases, to be converted to fuel, farmers would use less in the soil, with predictable bad consequences. We don't want to give the greedy an additional reason to mine the soil and reduce food production, with a corresponding increase in cost. Everything has consequences. This is one we don't need. Ed Jed Rothwell wrote: > Jones Beene wrote: > >> The tonnage of available future biomass is not clear - but it could be >> as much as an order of magnitude greater than once thought at a fully >> sustainable level. > > > Again let me point out that Pimentel and others show that the total > annual biomass production in North America amounts to half of our fossil > fuel consumption. Photosynthesis is only 0.1% efficient, and plants do > not grow in winter. Even under ideal circumstances I do not see how > biomass could supply more than a few percent of our total energy needs. > > Of course it is a good idea to extract energy from leftover agricultural > products and garbage, and this should be done with maximum efficiency. > It has the additional benefit of reducing waste and pollution. So this > kind of research is important. But it resembles research to improve the > efficiency of things like refrigerators or computer power supplies: at > best, it only addresses a small part of the problem. > > Liquid fuel is most useful for transportation. If plug-in hybrids > greatly reduce the need for liquid fuel, then perhaps biomass can supply > most of our needs. But my guess is that liquid or gas fuel synthesize > with solar energy or fission will be cheaper in the long run, and this > could easily be done on a scale large enough to replace all chemical fuel. > > - Jed > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 17 15:15:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9HME6G2027433; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 15:14:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9HMDwMk027310; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 15:13:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 15:13:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: Some Thoughts About Biomass Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 17:13:24 -0500 Message-ID: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50A336586 CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Some Thoughts About Biomass thread-index: AcXTZ/3BpKddSqY6QSKGjcKtTQuxEg== From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Oct 2005 22:13:25.0279 (UTC) FILETIME=[FE6102F0:01C5D367] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j9HMDXnj026905 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63825 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The opportunities to be gathered from biomass could be much more positive than casual dismissals might suggest. First, the market needs to be the final arbiter of any projected practicality. If Brazil or US farmers can produce fuel at a cheaper price than equivalent oil, - apart from tax abatements and subsidies- that should settle the matter, regardless of studies. One advantage of ethanol? You don't need coast based refineries. Second, concern about a choice between growing food or fuel may be naïve. Industrialization and agricultural productivity has returned vast areas to untilled land - take a ride thru New England and take note of the huge, unused areas of land - that used to support less intensive farming. Farmers will produce whatever is profitable - and conserving food here does not necessarily translate into 'more food for the starving'. If it isn't to be paid for, it won't get grown. My personal choice of tofu over beef won't help Africa - unless I happen to donate the difference. American tourists are getting easily identified in foreign locales by their weight - lack of food production is not a problem! Biofuels might not require additional land anyway, depending on what is grown in a field - or grown in a vat. Biofuel also might get us by until H2 or something really permanent comes along. In that regard, I don't see that we have an energy problem - we have a motor fuel problem! Calpine is going bust trying to sell electrical generation that they spent zillions on ( and no one seems to want!) Wind, water and solar might take care of the grid - it's CARS we have to worry about! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 17 15:17:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9HMGaTY030109; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 15:16:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9HMGYnE030069; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 15:16:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 15:16:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000b01c5d368$5fe882a0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <017501c5d355$abc14c60$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051017161255.04f51eb0@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Is Alkane-Aquanol the Oil-free answer? Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 15:16:08 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C5D32D.B320AFA0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <26igT.A.vVH.BLCVDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63826 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C5D32D.B320AFA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jed Rothwell writes: =20 >>The tonnage of available future biomass is not clear - but it could be = as=20 >>much as an order of magnitude greater than once thought at a fully=20 >>sustainable level. =20 > Again let me point out that Pimentel and others show that the total = annual=20 > biomass production in North America amounts to half of our fossil fuel = > consumption.=20 Jed, with all due respect - why do you persist in quoting this flawed = study by Pementel as it were not completely debunked already? Did you = read the criticism of Pimentel in the cited piece or on numerous other = web sites? If not, let me quote it for the benefit of those who do not realize that = almost every detail in the work has been discredited by honest experts = (and some just as dishonest as Pimentel but coming from the other side = of the argument), and morevover the qualifications and expecially the = motivation of Pimentel, who is openly racist, are dubious. Who is David Pimentel? Pimentel's educational background is in the study of insects. A = professor of insect ecology at Cornell University since 1955, Pimentel = has published four studies dating back to 1991 that claim ethanol is a = net energy loser. Each of his studies has been thoroughly discredited by = government and university researchers.=20 Pimentel also produced a study in 2000 that claimed milkweed leaves = dusted with heavy concentrations of Bt corn pollen are toxic to Monarch = butterfly larvae, a notion that was disproved and soundly rejected by = the scientific community.=20 Additionally, according to MSNBC, Pimentel publicly encouraged the = Sierra Club to call for restrictions on U.S. immigration, saying the = nation's growing population and its consumption of natural resources are = the greatest threat to the environment. Sierra Club leaders warned that anti-immigration forces (spearheaded by = Pimentel) were trying to take over the organization and its $100 million = annual budget, according to MSNBC. Pimentel also sits on the board of = directors for the "Carrying Capacity Network," an anti-immigration = activist group. The April 22, 2004, San Francisco Chronicle quoted = Pimentel as saying, "I have said I support reducing the U.S. = population." Pimentel is NOT an Ethanol Expert or an agronomy expert and has not = denied that he is an anti-immigration, anti-latino racist with extreme = views on may important personal issues. He should not be trusted on this = issue for which he has zero credentials, unless there is substantial = backup from real experts, which does not appear to be the case... ...but, having said that, neither is the Agriculture lobby going to be = totally honest regarding ethanol - that is why I prefaced the piece with = "who do you trust?" Why do the media continue to report on Pimentel's work as if it is = scientifically valid? It is clear neither Pimentel nor Patzek have = expertise in agronomics, ethanol or the economics of energy which is on = par with other researchers who have studied this subject intensely with = fewer prejustices. The professional backgrounds of Patzek and Pimentel = raise several questions about both their competencey and true motivation = - especially since Patzek has recived direct funding from petroleum = interests, and Pimentel has extreme personal views, and has openly = expressed racist views thinnly disguised as science. Jones ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C5D32D.B320AFA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jed Rothwell = writes:
 
>>The=20 tonnage of available future biomass is not clear - but it could be as=20
>>much as an order of magnitude greater than once thought at a = fully=20
>>sustainable level.
 
> Again let me point out = that=20 Pimentel and others show that the total annual
> biomass = production in=20 North America amounts to half of our fossil fuel
> consumption.=20

Jed, with all due respect - why do you persist in quoting this = flawed=20 study by Pementel as it were not completely debunked already? Did you = read the=20 criticism of Pimentel in the cited piece or on numerous other web=20 sites?

If not, let me quote it for the benefit of those who do = not=20 realize that almost every detail in the work has been discredited by = honest=20 experts (and some just as dishonest as Pimentel but coming from the = other side=20 of the argument), and morevover the qualifications and expecially the = motivation=20 of Pimentel, who is openly racist, are dubious.

Who is David Pimentel?

Pimentel=92s educational background = is in the=20 study of insects. A professor of insect ecology at Cornell University = since=20 1955, Pimentel has published four studies dating back to 1991 that claim = ethanol=20 is a net energy loser. Each of his studies has been thoroughly = discredited by=20 government and university researchers.
 
Pimentel also produced a study in 2000 = that claimed=20 milkweed leaves dusted with heavy concentrations of Bt corn pollen are = toxic to=20 Monarch butterfly larvae, a notion that was disproved and soundly = rejected by=20 the scientific community.

Additionally, according to MSNBC, Pimentel publicly encouraged = the=20 Sierra Club to call for restrictions on U.S. immigration, saying the = nation=92s=20 growing population and its consumption of natural resources are the = greatest=20 threat to the environment.
 
Sierra Club leaders warned that anti-immigration forces = (spearheaded by=20 Pimentel) were trying to take over the organization and its $100 million = annual=20 budget, according to MSNBC. Pimentel also sits on the board of directors = for the=20 =93Carrying Capacity Network,=94 an anti-immigration activist group. The = April 22,=20 2004, San Francisco Chronicle quoted Pimentel as saying, =93I have said = I support=20 reducing the U.S. population=85=94

Pimentel is NOT an Ethanol Expert or an agronomy expert and has = not=20 denied that he is an anti-immigration, anti-latino racist with extreme = views on=20 may important personal issues. He should not be trusted on this issue = for which=20 he has zero credentials, unless there is substantial backup from real = experts,=20 which does not appear to be the case...
 
...but, having said that, neither is the Agriculture lobby going to = be=20 totally honest regarding ethanol - that is why I prefaced the piece with = "who do=20 you trust?"

Why do the media continue to report on Pimentel=92s work as if = it is=20 scientifically valid? It is clear neither Pimentel nor Patzek have = expertise in=20 agronomics, ethanol or the economics of energy which is on par with = other=20 researchers who have studied this subject intensely with fewer = prejustices. The=20 professional backgrounds of Patzek and Pimentel raise several questions = about=20 both their competencey and true motivation - especially since Patzek has = recived=20 direct funding from petroleum interests, and Pimentel has extreme = personal=20 views, and has openly expressed racist views thinnly disguised as=20 science.
 
Jones
------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C5D32D.B320AFA0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 17 15:49:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9HMmVUR015607; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 15:48:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9HMmND7015523; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 15:48:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 15:48:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002b01c5d36c$d24a98c0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <017501c5d355$abc14c60$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051017161255.04f51eb0@pop.mindspring.com> <4354141D.1020302@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: Is Alkane-Aquanol the Oil-free answer? Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 15:47:58 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0028_01C5D332.2587A7C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63827 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C5D332.2587A7C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Edmund Storms writes, > In addition to what Jed points out, I would like to remind the = nonfarmer=20 > readers that a large fraction of biomass is returned to the soil,=20 > without which productivity would drop.=20 This appears to a totally bogus argment. I hope there is one corn farmer = on this list who can comment. It has been reported on other lists that it costs the corn farmer more = in added fuel costs to till the corn stalks back-in to his field = nowadays than just to add the equivalent fertilizer with the next = planting, when he must use the tractor anyway.=20 This appears to one more dubious argument being put forward by the "Oil = Connection" and repeated by others without checking on sources. It is = well known that Tad Patzek, Pimnetl's partner in crime, has strong ties = to the oil industry. He is a former Shell Oil employee and has served = as an expert witness and consultant to Shell and Chevron. He also = established the UC Oil Consortium in 1994. Why should anyone trust = either of these two fools? The American Petroleum Institute recently stated, "We are disappointed = in the vote by the Senate Energy and Natural Resources Committee to = increase the Renewable Fuels Standard to 8 billion gallons of ethanol... = Clearly, the oil industry, which is enjoying record profits in 2005, = views an 8-billion-gallon RFS as a potential monkey wrench in its = well-oiled money-making machine.=20 A recent Consumer Federation of America study states oil companies could = and should use far more ethanol solely to help keep gasoline prices = lower for consumers, but says they are refusing to do so. Why?=20 The answer is simple on one level and complex on another. The market is = not competitive enough to force them to worry about price oil price = increases BUT this is only true as long as there is no option to oil. = Ethanol is that option. They do not own the ethanol, and they cannot = control its distribution. Once ethanol gets entrenched in the market, = they become just another distributor with NO control over the obscene = profits they now command. Exxon will have about $25 billion in after-tax = profits this year, and as much as double that in untaxed cash flow. = Ethanol is a huge risk for them. They prefer to process more crude oil AT ANY PRICE and make more money = by keeping the price up as they **always add-on a markup.** This will = not be possible with a swtich to ethanol and especailly not with = Alkane-Aquanol, which theoretically can be controlled at the level of a = farmer's co-op.=20 In my opinion it is as simple as that. Big-oil does not like ethanol - = do not want to see it become entrenched 0 and has paid and cajoled = second-rate scientists, and MANY politicians to back their viewpoint. Jones ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C5D332.2587A7C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Edmund Storms writes,

> In = addition to=20 what Jed points out, I would like to remind the nonfarmer
> = readers that=20 a large fraction of biomass is returned to the soil,
> without = which=20 productivity would drop.

This appears to a totally bogus = argment. I hope=20 there is one corn farmer on this list who can comment.

It has = been=20 reported on other lists that it costs the corn farmer more in added = fuel=20 costs to till the corn stalks back-in to his field nowadays than just to = add the=20 equivalent fertilizer with the next planting, when he must use the = tractor=20 anyway.

This appears to one more dubious argument being put = forward by=20 the "Oil Connection" and repeated by others without checking on sources. = It is=20 well known that Tad Patzek, Pimnetl's partner in crime, has strong = ties to=20 the oil industry. He is a former Shell Oil  employee and has served = as an=20 expert witness and consultant to Shell and Chevron. He also  = established=20 the UC Oil Consortium in 1994. Why should anyone trust either of these = two=20 fools?
 
The American Petroleum Institute = recently=20 stated, "We are disappointed in the vote by the Senate Energy and = Natural=20 Resources Committee to increase the Renewable Fuels Standard to 8 = billion=20 gallons of ethanol... Clearly, the = oil industry,=20 which is enjoying record profits in 2005, views an 8-billion-gallon = RFS as=20 a potential monkey wrench in its well-oiled money-making machine.=20

A recent Consumer Federation of America study states oil = companies=20 could and should use far more ethanol solely to help keep gasoline = prices=20 lower for consumers, but says they are refusing to do so. Why?
 
The answer is simple on one level and complex on another. The = market is not=20 competitive enough to force them to worry about price oil price = increases BUT=20 this is only true as long as there is no option to oil. Ethanol is = that=20 option. They do not own the ethanol, and they cannot control its = distribution.=20 Once ethanol gets entrenched in the market, they become just = another=20 distributor with NO control over the obscene profits they now command. = Exxon=20 will have about $25 billion in after-tax profits this year, and as much = as=20 double that in untaxed cash flow. Ethanol is a huge risk for them.
 
They prefer to process more crude oil AT ANY PRICE and make more = money by=20 keeping the price up as they **always add-on a markup.** This will not = be=20 possible with a swtich to ethanol and especailly not with = Alkane-Aquanol,=20 which  theoretically can be controlled at the level of a farmer's=20 co-op. 
 
In my opinion it is as simple as that. Big-oil does not like = ethanol - do=20 not want to see it become entrenched 0 and has paid and cajoled = second-rate=20 scientists, and MANY politicians to back their viewpoint.
 
Jones
 ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C5D332.2587A7C0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 17 15:53:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9HMqEwq017621; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 15:52:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9HMq6fB017555; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 15:52:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 15:52:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051017182210.04e01670 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 18:51:34 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Is Alkane-Aquanol the Oil-free answer? In-Reply-To: <000b01c5d368$5fe882a0$6401a8c0 NuDell> References: <017501c5d355$abc14c60$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051017161255.04f51eb0 pop.mindspring.com> <000b01c5d368$5fe882a0$6401a8c0 NuDell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63828 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >Jed, with all due respect - why do you persist in quoting this flawed >study by Pementel as it were not completely debunked already? The study I quote was not done by Pimentel. It is in a book edited by Pimentel & Pimentel. The reference is Reifsnyder and Lull, 1965, "Radient energy in relation to forests," Technical bulletin number 1344 Washington, DC US Department of Agriculture. All of the other estimates of biomass that I know of are in reasonable agreement. > Did you read the criticism of Pimentel in the cited piece or on numerous > other web sites? Yes. I disagree with them, and even if they are correct they demonstrate only that ethanol production by present-day techniques is wastes 60% of the input energy instead of 170%. Either way it is absurdly uneconomical. >. . . expecially the motivation of Pimentel, who is openly racist, are >dubious. > >Who is David Pimentel? > >Pimentel's educational background is in the study of insects. A professor >of insect ecology at Cornell University since 1955. . . That is correct. That is what it says on the back of his book. His wife, Marcia Pimentel, is senior lecturer in the division of nutritional sciences, College of human ecology, Cornell University. She is an expert in food, plants and energy. >Pimentel has published four studies dating back to 1991 that claim ethanol >is a net energy loser. Each of his studies has been thoroughly discredited >by government and university researchers. This is false propaganda. Even the numbers from the ethanol industry flacks are only marginally better than the numbers from Pimentel, and he provides far more detail to back up his claims than they do. >Additionally, according to MSNBC, Pimentel publicly encouraged the Sierra >Club to call for restrictions on U.S. immigration, saying the nation's >growing population and its consumption of natural resources are the >greatest threat to the environment. This is ad hominem and irrelevant. His opinions about immigration have no bearing on his calculations regarding biomass. The only way for you to discredit his numbers is to find another authoritative estimate of the total amount of biomass in North America. If you cannot cite such an estimate I suggest you do not have a leg to stand on. Furthermore, there are many non-racist people who think that massive uncontrolled immigration into the US from poverty-stricken countries such as Mexico will exacerbate the population explosion, by allowing those countries to avoid dealing with the problem. In other words, they are exporting their problem to us instead of dealing with it. We do something similar in the manufacture of personal computers by exporting pollution and waste disposal to China. I think there is some merit to that argument, although I have mixed feelings about it. >Pimentel is NOT an Ethanol Expert . . . I can judge that myself by reading what he is written about the subject. In my opinion he is. I have not seen any other analysis of ethanol production with as much detail and as many footnotes referencing other researchers. When I have questioned him by e-mail about various aspects of energy and food, he has provided copious backup details and references. >or an agronomy expert and has not denied that he is an anti-immigration, >anti-latino racist with extreme views . . . You really should refrain from posting this sort of ad hominem statement on Vortex. This is as if someone claimed my estimates of the number of wind turbines it takes to equal one nuclear reactor are invalid because I am an atheist, or a Democrat. >. . . on may important personal issues. He should not be trusted on this >issue for which he has zero credentials, unless there is substantial >backup from real experts . . . I am sure he is a real expert, and there is substantial backup from a broad range of experts in his book. It has 48 pages of references. By the way, have you read Pimentel's book? If you have not, I suggest you refrain from criticizing it so dismissively. It is reasonable for you to point out that it has been criticized by others. >, which does not appear to be the case... > >...but, having said that, neither is the Agriculture lobby going to be >totally honest regarding ethanol - that is why I prefaced the piece with >"who do you trust?" I trust people who present numbers which can be cross checked and verified with the broader literature, and arguments which appear to follow the laws of physics and chemistry. I can judge the scientific validity of an argument myself, without reference to the author's political views. Or if I cannot (as often happens), I refrain from judging or expressing an opinion. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 17 16:16:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9HNFlWE028766; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:16:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9HNFgeN028714; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:15:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:15:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051017185658.04e1f2a0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:15:09 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Ad hominem arguments are logically false Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <-cRQrC.A.mAH.cCDVDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63829 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: "This is ad hominem and irrelevant. His opinions about immigration have no bearing on his calculations regarding biomass. . . . You really should refrain from posting this sort of ad hominem statement on Vortex. This is as if someone claimed my estimates of the number of wind turbines it takes to equal one nuclear reactor are invalid because I am an atheist, or a Democrat." Please note that I object to invalid logic, not politically incorrect statements. I do not give a fig about political correctness. There is nothing wrong with pointing out that Professor Pimentel is a racist -- if that is what you believe. (In what I have seen of his work, I see no trace of racism, but these papers have been narrowing technical and I suppose it is possible that he is.) This forum is open to a broad range of subjects and if you want to post a message saying "OFF TOPIC Pimentel is a racist" I suppose it would be okay, although I think the official charter of this forum discourages that sort of thing. My point is that you cannot cite Pimentel's political or personal views as evidence that his technical discussion is inaccurate. This is a logical fallacy. Let me illustrate. According to Herbert Bix, the political views of the late emperor of Japan, Hirohito, ranged from fairly Neanderthal, racist and abominable to downright crazy. He thought he was a living God. He thought his country had the right to attack the US at Pearl Harbor, and to slaughter millions of Chinese people. For Bix to criticize Hirohito's politics is perfectly valid. It is *not* ad hominem, because Bix is a historian. On the other hand, Hirohito was an accomplished marine biologist who published several peer-reviewed papers. If a marine biologist were to criticize those papers by citing those same political views, in that context this *would be* an invalid ad hominem argument. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 17 16:27:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9HNR00a001951; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:27:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9HNQrLn001787; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:26:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:26:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003801c5d372$2e476310$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <017501c5d355$abc14c60$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051017161255.04f51eb0@pop.mindspring.com> <000b01c5d368$5fe882a0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051017182210.04e01670@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Is Alkane-Aquanol the Oil-free answer? Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:26:19 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63830 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed, > Yes. I disagree with them, and even if they are correct they > demonstrate only that ethanol production by present-day > techniques is wastes 60% of the input energy instead of 170%. > Either way it is absurdly uneconomical. "Ethanol by present techniques" is a bogeyman. It is not valid to ethanol by improved techniques. > This is ad hominem and irrelevant. His opinions about > immigration have no bearing on his calculations regarding > biomass. NO! Ad hominem is only irrelevant if it does not tie back to the original thesis under discussion, and in this case there is a linkage. > The only way for you to discredit his numbers is to find another > authoritative estimate of the total amount of biomass in North > America. If you cannot cite such an estimate I suggest you do > not have a leg to stand on. Of give me the exact estimate from the 40 year old book, which you think proves that ethanol cannot substitue for a large part of our imported oil (not total oil use but imported oil) and I will find an newer and more reliable estimate based on sustainability, to cross-check and counter your old figure against. >>or an agronomy expert and has not denied that he is an >>anti-immigration, anti-latino racist with extreme views . . . > You really should refrain from posting this sort of ad hominem > statement on Vortex. Again, ad hominem is only irrelevant if it does not tie back to the original thesis, and serve to disprove that thesis - and in this case there is a linkage. It is the same with people who have been paid by the oil industry. It is not ad hominme to attack them for that special interest alone. > I trust people who present numbers which can be cross checked > and verified with the broader literature, and arguments which > appear to follow the laws of physics and chemistry. I can judge > the scientific validity of an argument myself, without reference > to the author's political views. Or if I cannot (as often > happens), I refrain from judging or expressing an opinion. Then, once again, all I am asking for is for the exact reference, which you trust, in your 40 year old reference, which you think proves that Alkane-Aquanol (or ethanol) cannot adequately substitute for a large part of our imported oil (not total oil usage but imported oil from the middle East) and I will find an newer estimate based on sustainability, with which to cross-check that old figure against. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 17 16:32:42 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9HNWB13004596; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:32:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9HNW93D004577; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:32:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:32:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051017192245.04df2140 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:31:41 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Is Alkane-Aquanol the Oil-free answer? In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20051017182210.04e01670 pop.mindspring.com> References: <017501c5d355$abc14c60$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051017161255.04f51eb0 pop.mindspring.com> <000b01c5d368$5fe882a0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051017182210.04e01670 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63831 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: >>Each of his studies has been thoroughly discredited by government and >>university researchers. > >This is false propaganda. . . . >>Pimentel is NOT an Ethanol Expert . . . Also please note that the chapter on ethanol cites the ERAB, the USDA, Dovring, Walles et al., Kane et al., Sparks Sommodities and the US General Accounting Office. For the sake of argument, even if Pimentel is not an ethanol expert, it is clear that he has read a great deal of the literature on the subject, he grasps the essentials, and he cites other researchers and institutions that do have considerable credibility and expertise. I readily admit that I have no expertise in electrochemistry and no standing whenever in the field of cold fusion research, but I think I can claim that that my review papers on the subject are credible because I do cite papers from experts, I demonstrate a reasonable level of understanding of their work, and I quote them carefully and in detail. I provide enough detail to allow the reader to judge my level of understanding from the work itself, without reference to my credentials. The same can be said for Pimentel & Pimentel. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 17 16:50:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9HNnPQe012981; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:49:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9HNnM8U012954; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:49:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:49:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051017193231.04dfb8d0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:48:20 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Is Alkane-Aquanol the Oil-free answer? In-Reply-To: <003801c5d372$2e476310$6401a8c0 NuDell> References: <017501c5d355$abc14c60$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051017161255.04f51eb0 pop.mindspring.com> <000b01c5d368$5fe882a0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051017182210.04e01670 pop.mindspring.com> <003801c5d372$2e476310$6401a8c0 NuDell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63832 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >NO! Ad hominem is only irrelevant if it does not tie back to the original >thesis under discussion, and in this case there is a linkage. I see no such linkage. >Of give me the exact estimate from the 40 year old book, which you think >proves that ethanol cannot substitue for a large part of our imported oil . . . What does 40 years have to do with it? Solar energy and photosynthesis were well understood back then. If you wish to find another reference to refute this estimate I suggest I suggest you do your own homework. In any case, I have quoted the source previously. The estimate is not exact, and the numbers are worked out by Pimentel based on that reference. "Each year the total amount of solar energy harvested annually in the form of agricultural crops and forestry products is about 6.9 x 10E15 kcal . . . This represents about 30% of the fossil energy consumption in the United States . . ." >(not total oil use but imported oil) . . . You can work out the amount of energy derived from oil, coal and other fossil fuel from the EIA Annual Energy Review. I am sure you can find authoritative, updated Dept. of Agriculture publications that agree with the 1965 study. There is no controversy or disagreement about this subject, as far as I know. Every book on the subject that I have seen indicates there is nowhere near enough photosynthesis in North America to produce the energy we use. >. . . and I will find an newer and more reliable estimate based on >sustainability, to cross-check and counter your old figure against. I doubt you will find that photosynthesis has improved in the last 40 years. >Again, ad hominem is only irrelevant if it does not tie back to the >original thesis, and serve to disprove that thesis . . . A statement about Pimentel's politics does *nothing* to disprove his carefully referenced calculations for biomass! That's ridiculous. >Then, once again, all I am asking for is for the exact reference, which >you trust, in your 40 year old reference, which you think proves that >Alkane-Aquanol (or ethanol) cannot adequately substitute for a large part >of our imported oil (not total oil usage but imported oil from the middle >East) . . . The efficiency of the system is irrelevant. If every single leaf, grass, branch and food crop that grows in North America were converted into ethanol with 100% efficiency it would not be anywhere near enough. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 17 16:58:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9HNvw7U017928; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:58:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9HNvrXt017880; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:57:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:57:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051017194915.04df7700 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:57:15 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Is Alkane-Aquanol the Oil-free answer? In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20051017192245.04df2140 pop.mindspring.com> References: <017501c5d355$abc14c60$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051017161255.04f51eb0 pop.mindspring.com> <000b01c5d368$5fe882a0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051017182210.04e01670 pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20051017192245.04df2140 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63833 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Also, by the way, the best proof that present-day ethanol production techniques are not economical is apparent to anyone who visits an ethanol production factory. The cars, trucks, tractors, and other equipment are all run on conventional gasoline, not ethanol. The people who run these factories realize that to burn their own fuel would be like burning money. If there really was a significant net energy gain from producing ethanol, then obviously it would be cheaper for those people at the production facility itself to use ethanol as fuel, since they would not even have to pay the shipping costs. What they are doing is akin to running an oil well drill with a coal-fired steam engine, or paying two apples to purchase one apple. As far as I know, the ethanol industry flacks do not address this issue. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 17 17:33:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9I0Wpjo006184; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 17:33:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9I0WfBg006043; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 17:32:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 17:32:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <031501c5d37b$619f11a0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <017501c5d355$abc14c60$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051017161255.04f51eb0@pop.mindspring.com> <000b01c5d368$5fe882a0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051017182210.04e01670@pop.mindspring.com> <003801c5d372$2e476310$6401a8c0@NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051017193231.04dfb8d0@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Is Alkane-Aquanol the Oil-free answer? Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 17:32:11 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63834 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wites, > The efficiency of the system is irrelevant. If every single > leaf, grass, branch and food crop that grows in North America > were converted into ethanol with 100% efficiency it would not be > anywhere near enough. Whoa !!! This is so outrageously false it defies the imagination !!!! Don't you have a calculator? In reviewing some past posts, think I see a logical problem in trying to base future estimates on past resuts. Jed has stated that he DOE estimate of energy produced from biomass is only about 5 Quad/year as opposed to ~90 Quad/year US energy demand (quadrillion BTUs) OK. No problem there. ...but that is because until recently (the new studies cited) biomass was not only underused - but often just wasted, becasue it could not be broken-down cheaply in order that it could be fermented into fuel. Toss in distillation and NO-WAY. Consequently, we have only used the easy, available sources of biomass in the past, for such things as burning sawdust at furniture factories, to supply steam and heat. However $3 gallon gasoline changes everything. If you look at Fred's work with the fast growing grasses, however, a totally different picture emerges. Here we have many tons per acre. There is even a new startup called e-grass: http://www.egrass.com/green_energy/green_advantages.htm Since they are in this business, I would trust their figures explicitly, which are very low cost in terms of 3-6 cents per kwh - and that is even NOT using the newer Aquanol technology. It is easy to see that there is enough unused grass-land in many states, a dozen large counties even - in Florida for instance, and scattered around other Ag-states to provide 10-15 Quads of Alkane-Aquanol per annum. We are not talking about that many acres, plus if you throw in "harvesting" of national forests - not cutting trees put just roboticly picking up the fallen stuff, or even dedicated tree farms: http://www.treepower.org/yields/main.html They are getting about 40 tons per acre and this is totally renewable - with no new plantings. A couple of under-populated Florida swamp counties could supply a few Quads alone - not to mention the rest of the USA. Note that 1 quad of biomass energy - to produced by the dedicated biomass plantations, exclusive of the energy inputs needed for harvesting and transporting the feedstock to the conversion plant, and converting it to Alkane-Aquanol, requires about 4,000 square miles of biomass growth area, mas o menos - which is the equivalent of a square 70 miles on each edge, planted in trees or egrass. This assumes average biomass yields of 40 dry ton per acre per year, a yield level that is in keeping with the teepower estimates and below some grass estimates. Where did you come up with all that crap about "every single leaf, grass, branch and food crop that grows in North America were converted into ethanol with 100% efficiency it would not be anywhere near enough" ... sounds like BS from a petroleum funded study or bug-expert to me ! Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 17 18:13:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9I1CDCN026591; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 18:12:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9I1CB2G026574; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 18:12:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 18:12:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <033401c5d380$e9f09560$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: Biomass on the Bayou Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 18:11:47 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63835 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Louisiana has good weather, not enough jobs, lots of poor minority workers needing jobs, and lots of wetland - perfect for fast-growing grasses. We should preserve some of it, for the sake of posterity and ecology - certainly - but consider that there are over 10,000 square miles of under-utilized bayou swamps which can be harvest by boat, needing few roads - is this a good candidate site for a national biomass Manhattan-style project ... or is it not? Lets say one could get two quads of Alkane-Aquanol eventually from this area. That's about what is coming from there now from natural gas and oil offshore, but that will gone in 15 years. Is a sustainable Manhattan project for Biomass-on-the-Bayou worth the ecological price of a smaller Bayou? Jones Oh forgot to mention - that is the approximate level of oil exports from Iraq, which will run out in a few decades also, and which have already cost us over $ 201, 000,000 to partially secure - not counting the value of the young men who lost their lives over there : http://costofwar.com/index.html Could we have built that Manhattan-style project: Biomass-on-the-Bayou for a little less than this? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 17 18:38:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9I1bfoI009459; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 18:37:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9I1bXpP009297; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 18:37:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 18:37:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <034001c5d384$692edd70$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: Some more e-grass numbers Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 18:36:49 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63836 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,16679599%255E30417,00.html "Trials have shown that the plant flourishes on most arable land, requires no fertilizer, suffers no pests or diseases, and produces huge volumes of material that can be harvested using existing technology...." New trials of 'Miscanthus giganteus' .... produce more than 60 tons of dry matter per hectare.... Dr John Clifton-Brown, of the Institute of Grassland and Environmental Research... said that if Miscanthus was grown on 10 per cent of suitable unused land, it could generate 9 per cent of Europe's electricity. It will actually do better in Northern Europe than Southern as it needs lots of water. In Europe, this would probably affect food-agriculture to some degree (less grazing land), but that is less an issue in the USA - due to so much under-utilized wet-land. The advantage of biomass crops is "supposedly" that they do not add to carbon dioxide emissions. As they grow, they absorb carbon dioxide, and when they are burned, they release it again, so they are said to be "carbon-neutral". Not so sure about that... but it beats burning Arabian crude oil. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 17 18:50:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9I1nHct022264; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 18:49:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9I1nBWD022200; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 18:49:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 18:49:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000601c5d386$0e0c9070$cf037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: <033401c5d380$e9f09560$6401a8c0 NuDell> Subject: Re: Biomass on the Bayou Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 20:48:35 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.8 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63837 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones, You are asking for common sense approach to energy supply. That is not how it works.It requires a comprehensive study by a special task force committee appointed by congress. Speaking of working.. The old days saw cane cutters and cotton pickers working the fields. They were healthy and robust because they ate sweet potatos, collards and pok salad. Now they are overweight, wrought with debilitating diseases and health problems. You could provide jobs in biomass but you would have to import labor. The new problem is that the imported laborer's US diet is different from their homeland. In one generation they began suffering from obesity. Diabetes is rampant among the latino immigrants. The worse kept secret of the New Orleans disaster is that there are jobs for cleanup laborers but few are in good enough health to work. More than 150,000 welfare recipients moved out of NO and have been disbursed across the US never to return. The Louisana state tax base is a disaster. The large part of the state has ceased to function. There is some question if it is actually possible to recover. The governor has many IOU's from the fed but thats NOT cash in the fist and may never be. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 8:11 PM Subject: Biomass on the Bayou > Louisiana has good weather, not enough jobs, lots of poor minority workers > needing jobs, and lots of wetland - perfect for fast-growing grasses. > > We should preserve some of it, for the sake of posterity and ecology - > certainly - but consider that there are over 10,000 square miles of > under-utilized bayou swamps which can be harvest by boat, needing few > roads - is this a good candidate site for a national biomass > Manhattan-style project ... or is it not? > > Lets say one could get two quads of Alkane-Aquanol eventually from this > area. That's about what is coming from there now from natural gas and oil > offshore, but that will gone in 15 years. > > Is a sustainable Manhattan project for Biomass-on-the-Bayou worth the > ecological price of a smaller Bayou? > > Jones > > Oh forgot to mention - that is the approximate level of oil exports from > Iraq, which will run out in a few decades also, and which have already > cost us over $ 201, 000,000 to partially secure - not counting the value > of the young men who lost their lives over there : > http://costofwar.com/index.html > > Could we have built that Manhattan-style project: Biomass-on-the-Bayou for > a little less than this? > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 17 19:25:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9I2PKkI008075; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:25:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9I2PH1I008057; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:25:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:25:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43545CF1.6010803 pobox.com> Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 22:24:49 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.10) Gecko/20050719 Fedora/1.7.10-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Biomass on the Bayou References: <033401c5d380$e9f09560$6401a8c0 NuDell> <000601c5d386$0e0c9070$cf037841@xptower> In-Reply-To: <000601c5d386$0e0c9070$cf037841 xptower> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <0cV_sD.A.x9B.N0FVDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63838 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: RC Macaulay wrote: > Jones, > You are asking for common sense approach to energy supply. That is not > how it works.It requires a comprehensive study by a special task force > committee appointed by congress. > Speaking of working.. The old days saw cane cutters and cotton pickers > working the fields. They were healthy and robust because they ate > sweet potatos, collards and pok salad. Now they are overweight, > wrought with debilitating diseases and health problems. You could > provide jobs in biomass but you would have to import labor. The new > problem is that the imported laborer's US diet is different from their > homeland. In one generation they began suffering from obesity. > Diabetes is rampant among the latino immigrants. Right. Convert 'em all to a vegan diet and cut out the refined sugar, and you'd solve lots of health problems at a single stroke. Convert everybody in the U.S. to a vegan diet and you'd find you suddenly had an awful lot of surplus food on your hands, 'cause processing our feed crops by running them through cattle is a bloody awful inefficient way to make them into "table-ready" food. It would save energy too, since making soy beans into cows takes a substantial amount of petroleum. Shouldn't be _too_ hard a sell: all the really addictive "must-have" stuff -- chocolate, tobacco, liquor, coffee -- is vegan already, save for a few minor additives. Convert everybody on Earth to a vegan diet and we can push Malthus and his arithmetic progression in farmland use versus geometric progression in population growth back for another few years, and save money on doctor bills at the same time. Dream on, dream on.... > The worse kept secret of the New Orleans disaster is that there are > jobs for cleanup laborers but few are in good enough health to work. > More than 150,000 welfare recipients moved out of NO and have been > disbursed across the US never to return. > The Louisana state tax base is a disaster. The large part of the state > has ceased to function. There is some question if it is actually > possible to recover. The governor has many IOU's from the fed but > thats NOT cash in the fist and may never be. > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jones Beene" > To: "vortex" > Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 8:11 PM > Subject: Biomass on the Bayou > > >> Louisiana has good weather, not enough jobs, lots of poor minority >> workers needing jobs, and lots of wetland - perfect for fast-growing >> grasses. >> >> We should preserve some of it, for the sake of posterity and ecology >> - certainly - but consider that there are over 10,000 square miles of >> under-utilized bayou swamps which can be harvest by boat, needing few >> roads - is this a good candidate site for a national biomass >> Manhattan-style project ... or is it not? >> >> Lets say one could get two quads of Alkane-Aquanol eventually from >> this area. That's about what is coming from there now from natural >> gas and oil offshore, but that will gone in 15 years. >> >> Is a sustainable Manhattan project for Biomass-on-the-Bayou worth the >> ecological price of a smaller Bayou? >> >> Jones >> >> Oh forgot to mention - that is the approximate level of oil exports >> from Iraq, which will run out in a few decades also, and which have >> already cost us over $ 201, 000,000 to partially secure - not >> counting the value of the young men who lost their lives over there : >> http://costofwar.com/index.html >> >> Could we have built that Manhattan-style project: >> Biomass-on-the-Bayou for a little less than this? >> > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 17 19:28:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9I2RIj5009202; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:27:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9I2RFSW009141; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:27:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:27:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43545D64.5000101 pobox.com> Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 22:26:44 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.10) Gecko/20050719 Fedora/1.7.10-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Some more e-grass numbers References: <034001c5d384$692edd70$6401a8c0 NuDell> In-Reply-To: <034001c5d384$692edd70$6401a8c0 NuDell> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63839 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,16679599%255E30417,00.html > > > "Trials have shown that the plant flourishes on most arable land, > requires no fertilizer, suffers no pests or diseases, and produces > huge volumes of material that can be harvested using existing > technology...." Yow! Sounds like Super-Kudzu! How do you control the stuff? (Assuming we don't want to turn the entire continent into a monocultural mat of e-grass, of course.) > New trials of 'Miscanthus giganteus' .... produce more than 60 tons of > dry matter per hectare.... Dr John Clifton-Brown, of the Institute of > Grassland and Environmental Research... said that if Miscanthus was > grown on 10 per cent of suitable unused land, it could generate 9 per > cent of Europe's electricity. It will actually do better in Northern > Europe than Southern as it needs lots of water. > > In Europe, this would probably affect food-agriculture to some degree > (less grazing land), but that is less an issue in the USA - due to so > much under-utilized wet-land. > > The advantage of biomass crops is "supposedly" that they do not add to > carbon dioxide emissions. As they grow, they absorb carbon dioxide, > and when they are burned, they release it again, so they are said to > be "carbon-neutral". > > Not so sure about that... but it beats burning Arabian crude oil. > > Jones > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 17 19:37:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9I2aD8W016342; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:36:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9I2a8AW016295; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:36:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:36:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <037a01c5d38c$a20e3750$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <033401c5d380$e9f09560$6401a8c0 NuDell> <000601c5d386$0e0c9070$cf037841@xptower> Subject: Re: Biomass on the Bayou Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:35:41 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <4DFL9C.A.j-D.X-FVDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63840 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Richard, > You are asking for common sense approach to energy supply. That > is not how it works.It requires a comprehensive study by a > special task force committee appointed by congress. I know, I know. Just some misplaced idealism boiling over every time I pick up a newspaper and read about another young man dying for almost nothing, in a place where they will never ever begin to appreciate the sacrifice we have tried to make, ostensibly in the name of "freedom" - but even it was "for oil" that does not mean we will ever get an oil-discount from them. So let's just be respectful of the feelings of the family's who have suffered these enormous losses - and say that their young son's made the ultimate sacrifice to bring freedom to an thankless bunch of undeserving pagans. By the way, just to firm up some of the rough numbers on e-grass grown for biomass(elephant grass), looks like I was off a bit.... Output per hectare 45 tons wet - 30 tons dry 1 million hectares equals 3,860 square miles. Biomass energy per ton = 15 million BTU gross per dry ton Biomass energy per hectares = 450 million BTU gross Output per million+ hectares = ~1/2 quad gross Land usage per quad of yearly elephant grass = ~8,000+ square miles And that is for gross BTUs. How that translates into Alkand-Aquanol is anybody's guess - but the bottom line is that we can make a big dent in oil imports - in theory by focusing on this new fuel as one of many paths to self-sufficiency. Hey, a quad here and a quad there... and pretty soon you have a nice-sized university campus. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 17 19:46:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9I2kIPb021090; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:46:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9I2jlXS020749; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:45:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:45:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43546177.4080202 pobox.com> Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 22:44:07 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.10) Gecko/20050719 Fedora/1.7.10-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Ad hominem arguments are logically false References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051017185658.04e1f2a0 pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20051017185658.04e1f2a0 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63841 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Nit time. Jed Rothwell wrote: > I wrote: > > "This is ad hominem and irrelevant. His opinions about immigration > have no bearing on his calculations regarding biomass. > > . . . > > You really should refrain from posting this sort of ad hominem > statement on Vortex. This is as if someone claimed my estimates of the > number of wind turbines it takes to equal one nuclear reactor are > invalid because I am an atheist, or a Democrat." > > Please note that I object to invalid logic, not politically incorrect > statements. I do not give a fig about political correctness. I know. I still chuckle a little every time I think of the Vortex post in which you complimented some public figure by comparing him to a Nazi general. Now _that_ was politically incorrect! > There is nothing wrong with pointing out that Professor Pimentel is a > racist -- if that is what you believe. (In what I have seen of his > work, I see no trace of racism, but these papers have been narrowing > technical and I suppose it is possible that he is.) This forum is open > to a broad range of subjects and if you want to post a message saying > "OFF TOPIC Pimentel is a racist" I suppose it would be okay, although > I think the official charter of this forum discourages that sort of > thing. > > My point is that you cannot cite Pimentel's political or personal > views as evidence that his technical discussion is inaccurate. This is > a logical fallacy. Let me illustrate. According to Herbert Bix, the > political views of the late emperor of Japan, Hirohito, ranged from > fairly Neanderthal, racist and abominable to downright crazy. He > thought he was a living God. He thought his country had the right to > attack the US at Pearl Harbor, and to slaughter millions of Chinese > people. For Bix to criticize Hirohito's politics is perfectly valid. > It is *not* ad hominem, YES IT IS. It _is_ ad hominem, but it is _not_ irrelevant in that context. Please do not conflate the two! From Webster's 1913 dictionary (free and online): > Ad hominem (L., to the man.) > A phrase applied to an appeal or argument addressed to the > principles, interests, or passions of a man. Unless you care to propose an objective and absolute definition of good versus evil which everyone will agree to, and which can be applied in this case, I don't see how you can argue that a criticism of Hirohito's beliefs on the grounds that they were "racist", "abominable" (define _that_ objectively, if you can), and "crazy" is anything but "ad hominem". It's an attack on Hirohito himself, based on emotional reasoning founded on such unstated assumptions as "Racism is bad", rather than a logical criticism of some argument he put forth. In a hearing to determine if a particular person would be a good Supreme Court justice -- or a good church pastor, for that matter -- an ad hominem attack may be justified and reasonable. In a murder trial, such an argument is far less admissible, because it incorporates a presumption of the probability of guilt based on prior behavior. > because Bix is a historian. On the other hand, Hirohito was an > accomplished marine biologist who published several peer-reviewed > papers. If a marine biologist were to criticize those papers by citing > those same political views, in that context this *would be* an invalid > ad hominem argument. > > - Jed > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 17 22:13:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9I5CjD8000397; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 22:13:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9I5CeBX000347; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 22:12:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 22:12:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <03ac01c5d3a2$812ab6b0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: Turning Ex-dairy farms into Exxon nightmares Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 22:12:14 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_03A9_01C5D367.D4630AC0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <0fQFPD.A.TF.HRIVDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63842 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_03A9_01C5D367.D4630AC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable More idealism? or an ill-wind for Big-oil... There are many NREL inventions related to ethanol from biomass, such as = a genetically modified bacteria 'Zymomonas mobilis,' which has had the = capability to ferment glucose sugars (from grain) all along. By making = it possible for several types of woody cellulosic sugars to be broken = down and fermented in a single vat process using this engineered = bacteria, NREL has, in effect, made a substantial decreases in the = capital equipment, complexity, and operating costs for cellulosic = ethanol production - but only if distillation can be avoided.=20 This can portend something for the national goal of getting rid of = imported Arab petroleum, if - in the near future - the engine necessary = to burn a watery fuel becomes a reality in the consumer market-place. = Small co-ops can then be set up to produce the stuff from several dozen = surrounding farms. IOW the technology is too complicated for one farmer, = but not for a small factory co-op, hiring a few dozen workers who could = handle fermentation and distribution easily - and of course, there is a = ready local market for transportation fuel everywhere requiring no huge = marketing plan or budget. I grew up in an area of dairy farms which were struggling most of time. = You have 200 acres and a herd of heifers which needs twice daily milking = and your are lucky to net much more than a good factory wage for all = your efforts - after you pay the vet bills and so forth. There are some = dairy subsidies, but most of these go to corporate farms... and we have = way too much milk in the USA anyway. We practically give it away to some = countries.=20 Here is a picture of what this elephant grass looks like growing on a = Midwestern farm where once there were nothing but fat grazing cows = (don't eat your heart out Elsie, this stuff probably doesn't taste so = good): http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/09/050928080411.htm How do the economics of this type of converted dairy farm look for = growing e-grass? I have gotten a little confused with the various = numbers floating around, for acres/hectares and dry/wet and average/high = yields - but now it seems that NREL is saying that an average of 25 tons = per acre dry weight is achievable every year for most farmers with = adequate rain. For 200 acres that is 10 million pounds. What is the value of this crop - when fermented at the local co-op into = an undistilled fuel like Aquanol ? - that is the big unanswered question = as to whether the farmer should convert his dairy or not. It will = probably all depend on whether those good folks in Moscow (Idaho) can = develop a real ICE engine conversion to run on undistilled mixed ethanol = and/or a mixed alkane fuel. Let's see - Gasoline has 120,000 BTU per gallon and the cost is now = about $1.50 wholesale. The 200 acre farm is producing a gross of 5000 = tons at 15 million BTU/ton or 75 billion BTUs. This is the gasoline = equivalent of 625,000 gallons- and if the conversion efficiency is the = stated (in the article above) 5:1 then we are still at about half a = million gallons at $1.50 per gallon-equivalent (although the product = itself might be in the form of 3 million actual liquid gallons, since = the energy content is less for ethanol-based fuels). I hope I got these = numbers right today - where is biomass-expert Fred Sparber when you need = him? If Detroit has started making cars which will burn Aquanol, then there = should be a ready local market, and with no Big-Oil middle-man - wow. = Imagine that catastrophe for the seven-sisters. Let's see, this = converted farm works out to a $750,000 annual gross income, which would = surely get sliced up many ways, but there seems to be quite a bit of = margin to go around compared to before. Probably beat's the heck out of = getting up at 4 a.m. for the morning milking of a bunch of noisy = temperamental heifers.... Maybe any Vortexian out there in dairy country should start looking = around, and try to buy a struggling farm before word gets around about = elephant grass economics ? Jones BTW The modern fuel grade ethanol industry is only about 18 years old = and only in the last 6 years has it started to boom. Early plants were = very inefficient. In 1980 a typical ethanol plant all by itself consumed = more energy than was contained in a gallon of ethanol. Some plants used = as much as 120,000 BTUs to produce a gallon of ethanol that contained = only 84,100 BTUs of energy. That is ancient history. Nowadays, that = ratio is totally reversed and for every 1 Btu of energy used to produce = ethanol, there is a 6.34 Btus of energy output, which is in keeping with = the energy which oil refineries use to produce gasoline from the heavier = crude oils. No big deal. But still Pimentel gets quoted all the time by the media on the old and = incorrect numbers in his many books, even though his antiquated figures = are proven to be outdated by today's standards. Full disclosure warning: = This is information provided by the ethanol industry, which is = rightfully offended by this sleight-of-hand - as they suspect that a = concerted effort at disinformation is coming from big-oil interests. http://running_on_alcohol.tripod.com/id18.html Hey if I was big-oil, I would have the spin doctors working overtime = also. Matter of fact, it would not surprise me if something "untoward" = ends up happening to that all-important Moscow-Motor - at least on the = funding end, if not worse. This is the ICE which is supposed to burn = high-water-content ethanol....and that is the keystone development which = is so potentially ominous and threatening to the obscene profits of = big-oil - who knows - this trend could set the stage for the "end of = big-oil" in the USA ....Nah, that is a joke, no? Exxon or the other = sisters would never stoop so low as to interfere with a free-market = process, would they? ------=_NextPart_000_03A9_01C5D367.D4630AC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
More idealism? or = an ill-wind=20 for Big-oil...
 
There are many NREL inventions = related to=20 ethanol from biomass, such as a genetically modified bacteria = 'Zymomonas=20 mobilis,' which has had the capability to ferment glucose sugars (from = grain)=20 all along. By making it possible for several types of woody cellulosic = sugars to=20 be broken down and fermented in a single vat process using this = engineered=20 bacteria, NREL has, in effect, made a substantial decreases in the = capital=20 equipment, complexity, and operating costs for cellulosic ethanol=20 production - but only if distillation can be avoided.
 
This can portend something for the = national goal of=20 getting rid of imported Arab petroleum, if - in the near future - the = engine=20 necessary to burn a watery fuel becomes a reality in the consumer = market-place.=20 Small co-ops can then be set up to produce the stuff from several dozen=20 surrounding farms. IOW the technology is too complicated for one farmer, = but not=20 for a small factory co-op, hiring a few dozen workers who could=20 handle fermentation and distribution easily - and of=20 course, there is a ready local market for transportation fuel = everywhere=20 requiring no huge marketing plan or budget.
 
I grew up in an area of dairy farms = which were=20 struggling most of time. You have 200 acres and a herd of heifers which = needs=20 twice daily milking and your are lucky to net much more than a good = factory wage=20 for all your efforts - after you pay the vet bills and so forth. There = are some=20 dairy subsidies, but most of these go to corporate farms... and we have = way too=20 much milk in the USA anyway. We practically give it away to some=20 countries. 
 
Here is a picture of what this elephant = grass looks=20 like growing on a Midwestern farm where once there were nothing but fat = grazing=20 cows (don't eat your heart out Elsie, this stuff probably doesn't taste = so=20 good):
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/09/050928080411.htm
 
How do the economics of this type of = converted=20 dairy farm look for growing e-grass? I have gotten a little confused = with the=20 various numbers floating around, for acres/hectares and dry/wet and = average/high=20 yields - but now it seems that NREL is saying that an average of 25 tons = per=20 acre dry weight is achievable every year for most farmers with adequate = rain.=20 For 200 acres that is 10 million pounds.
 
What is the value of this crop = - when=20 fermented at the local co-op into an undistilled fuel like Aquanol ? - = that is=20 the big unanswered question as to whether the farmer should convert his = dairy or=20 not. It will probably all depend on whether those good folks in Moscow = (Idaho)=20 can develop a real ICE engine conversion to run on undistilled = mixed=20 ethanol and/or a mixed alkane fuel.
 
Let's see - Gasoline has 120,000 BTU = per gallon and=20 the cost is now about $1.50 wholesale. The 200 acre farm is producing a = gross of=20 5000 tons at 15 million BTU/ton or 75 billion BTUs. This is the gasoline = equivalent of 625,000 gallons- and if the conversion efficiency is the = stated=20 (in the article above) 5:1 then we are still at about half a = million=20 gallons at $1.50 per gallon-equivalent (although the product itself = might be in=20 the form of 3 million actual liquid gallons, since the energy = content is=20 less for ethanol-based fuels). I hope I got these numbers right today - = where is=20 biomass-expert Fred Sparber when you need him?
 
If Detroit has started making cars = which will burn=20 Aquanol, then there should be a ready local market, and with no = Big-Oil=20 middle-man - wow. Imagine that catastrophe for the seven-sisters. = Let's see, this converted farm works out = to a=20 $750,000 annual gross income, which would surely get sliced up many = ways,=20 but there seems to be quite a bit of margin to go around compared to = before.=20 Probably beat's the heck out of getting up at 4 a.m. for the morning = milking of=20 a bunch of noisy temperamental heifers....
 
Maybe any Vortexian out there in = dairy=20 country should start looking around, and try to buy a struggling = farm=20 before word gets around about elephant grass economics ?
 
Jones
 
BTW  The = modern fuel=20 grade ethanol industry is only about 18 years old and only in the last 6 = years=20 has it started to boom. Early plants were very inefficient. In 1980 a = typical=20 ethanol plant all by itself consumed more energy than was contained in a = gallon=20 of ethanol. Some plants used as much as 120,000 BTUs to produce a gallon = of=20 ethanol that contained only 84,100 BTUs of energy. That is ancient = history.=20 Nowadays, that ratio is totally reversed and for every 1 Btu of energy = used to=20 produce ethanol, there is a 6.34 Btus of energy output, which is in = keeping with=20 the energy which oil refineries use to produce gasoline from the heavier = crude=20 oils. No big deal.
 
But still Pimentel gets quoted all the = time by the=20 media on the old and incorrect numbers in his many books, even though = his=20 antiquated figures are proven to be outdated by today's standards. Full=20 disclosure warning: This is = information provided=20 by the ethanol industry, which is rightfully offended by this=20 sleight-of-hand - as they suspect that a concerted effort at = disinformation is=20 coming from big-oil interests.
 
Hey if I was big-oil, I would have the = spin doctors=20 working overtime also. Matter of fact, it would not surprise me if = something=20 "untoward" ends up happening to that all-important Moscow-Motor - = at least=20 on the funding end, if not worse. This is the ICE which is supposed = to burn=20 high-water-content ethanol....and that is the keystone development which = is so=20 potentially ominous and threatening to the obscene profits of big-oil = - who=20 knows - this trend could set the stage for the "end of big-oil" in the = USA=20 ....Nah, that is a joke, no? Exxon or the other sisters would never = stoop so low=20 as to interfere with a free-market process, would=20 they?
------=_NextPart_000_03A9_01C5D367.D4630AC0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 17 23:53:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9I6rJHf008472; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 23:53:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9I6rCLs008403; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 23:53:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 23:53:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Well, now we know what happened to the mice Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 16:52:49 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.77.227] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Tue, 18 Oct 2005 06:52:49 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j9I6qrD3008263 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63843 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://www.physorg.com/news7309.html Regards, Robin van Spaandonk In a town full of candlestick makers, everyone lives in the light, In a town full of thieves, there is only one candle, and everyone lives in the night. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 18 03:25:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9IANkbZ019139; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 03:24:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9IANdgg019101; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 03:23:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 03:23:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Turning Ex-dairy farms into Exxon nightmares Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 20:23:03 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <03ac01c5d3a2$812ab6b0$6401a8c0 NuDell> In-Reply-To: <03ac01c5d3a2$812ab6b0$6401a8c0 NuDell> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta03sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.77.227] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Tue, 18 Oct 2005 10:23:03 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j9IANGWC018849 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63844 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Mon, 17 Oct 2005 22:12:14 -0700: Hi, [snip] >More idealism? or an ill-wind for Big-oil... > >There are many NREL inventions related to ethanol from biomass, such as a genetically modified bacteria 'Zymomonas mobilis,' which has had the capability to ferment glucose sugars (from grain) all along. By making it possible for several types of woody cellulosic sugars to be broken down and fermented in a single vat process using this engineered bacteria, NREL has, in effect, made a substantial decreases in the capital equipment, complexity, and operating costs for cellulosic ethanol production - but only if distillation can be avoided. > >This can portend something for the national goal of getting rid of imported Arab petroleum, if - in the near future - the engine necessary to burn a watery fuel becomes a reality in the consumer market-place. [snip] Here's a thought for you. Magnegas (http://www.magnegas.com/) will use carbon compounds in water as it's fuel source, producing combustible gas. It has also been suggested that it might be OU, though I never saw what I would accept as proof of that. OTOH it does make use of an under water arc, and http://blake.montclair.edu/~kowalskil/cf/217kiev.html and http://www.gdr.org/nuclear_half.htm along with the work of Ken Shoulders give some hope that it either might be, or might be adapted to be. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk In a town full of candlestick makers, everyone lives in the light, In a town full of thieves, there is only one candle, and everyone lives in the night. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 18 03:27:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9IAQkc2020574; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 03:27:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9IAQhfm020534; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 03:26:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 03:26:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Some more e-grass numbers Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 20:26:08 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <034001c5d384$692edd70$6401a8c0 NuDell> <43545D64.5000101@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: <43545D64.5000101 pobox.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.77.227] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Tue, 18 Oct 2005 10:26:09 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j9IAQFlU020135 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63845 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Stephen A. Lawrence's message of Mon, 17 Oct 2005 22:26:44 -0400: Hi, [snip] > > >Jones Beene wrote: > >> http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,16679599%255E30417,00.html [snip] >How do you control the stuff? (Assuming we don't want to turn the >entire continent into a monocultural mat of e-grass, of course.) [snip] It says in the article that it's a hybrid, which means it can't spread where it's not wanted. It will only grow where it's planted. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk In a town full of candlestick makers, everyone lives in the light, In a town full of thieves, there is only one candle, and everyone lives in the night. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 18 07:52:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9IEpRgu018524; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 07:51:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9IEn6p1017091; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 07:49:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 07:49:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051018094829.04645dc0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 10:47:53 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Is Alkane-Aquanol the Oil-free answer? In-Reply-To: <031501c5d37b$619f11a0$6401a8c0 NuDell> References: <017501c5d355$abc14c60$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051017161255.04f51eb0 pop.mindspring.com> <000b01c5d368$5fe882a0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051017182210.04e01670 pop.mindspring.com> <003801c5d372$2e476310$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051017193231.04dfb8d0 pop.mindspring.com> <031501c5d37b$619f11a0$6401a8c0 NuDell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63846 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >>The efficiency of the system is irrelevant. If every single leaf, grass, >>branch and food crop that grows in North America were converted into >>ethanol with 100% efficiency it would not be anywhere near enough. > >Whoa !!! This is so outrageously false it defies the imagination !!!! Nope. It is correct, as I shall show below. >Don't you have a calculator? As a matter of fact, I do. Let's go over three methods of estimating this. Method 1. You estimated 40 tons of wood per acre. Assuming those are metric tons, that's 40,000 kg per 4047 square meters, or 10 kg per meter. Ordinary wood produces 15 MJ per kg, so that's 150 MJ/year. There are 31,557,600 seconds per year, so that comes to 5 watts per m^2. I find that a little implausible but perhaps in an area where the growing season lasts all year, for trees which shade the ground considerably, it is possible. It is within an order of magnitude of my estimate. Method 2. Take the entire US land area and divide by population. You get about 2 ha per person, but unfortunately half that land is not arable. It is desert, steep rocky mountain, asphalt or Wall Mart floorspace. Arable land in the US is estimated at about a hectare per person. In Florida or the tropics with the Sun directly overhead is produces about 1020 kW per square meter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power), but in the US lower 48 it's about 900 Watts I think. Photosynthesis is roughly 0.1% effective, so that comes to 0.9 watts/m^2. However, the sun only shines 12 hours per day, and in the US the growing season is six months per year, so that comes to about 0.23 W/m^2. In Florida, maybe 0.5 W/m^2. As I said, the average American has about 1 ha of productive land per person (10,000 m^2), so this comes to 2.3 kW continuous power. That is impressive. It is enough to run your house and your car, but unfortunately Americans use a lot more energy than that. See the Annual Energy Review, Table 1.5. The total is 338 million BTU per capita, or 356,609 MJ. Divide jules by seconds per year (31,557,600) and you get 11.3 kW continuous consumption, almost all of it fossil fuel. In other words, my back-of-the-envelope estimate is that we consume roughly four times more than all photosynthesis creates, whereas Pimentel, using a much more sophisticated and careful method, came up with two times more than all photosynthesis. (Yesterday I said that farmland produces only about one third as much biomass as the fossil fuel we consume. The numbers I am estimating here is for all land including national parks and other non-farmland, which Pimentel estimates at 50% of fossil fuel.) Very roughly, Pimentel is estimating that the average U.S. land per capita produces 5 kW/ha continuously, or 0.5 watts. That is somewhat more optimistic than me, but still an order of magnitude below your optimum tree growing area. That's quite plausible. Even on the land I own, some areas are far more productive than others. Are you sure this does not include fertilizer? That would be an external energy input. Method 2. Take the old rule of thumb that in hard times an acre garden can support a family of four. This was true in the UK and the US, in the preindustrial era without massive amounts of fertilizer. (You can ignore animal or tractor input energy because that does not increase yields much. Mainly it reduces human labor.) Assume the family follows the European tradition, and disposes of human waste elsewhere, but it brings in a roughly an equal amount of animal manure. Plus the family mulches kitchen scraps, such as pea pods and corn silk. The RDA diet is about 2000 kcal per day, although I doubt that a premodern family of four scraping by with an acre garden ate 8000 kcal per day, let's say they did. To put it another way, a person with a modern quarter acre garden can grow just about all the food he eats, assuming he trades some of it to avoid dietary monotony. My mother-in-law lives on this amount of land. (She has plenty of other land for cash crops.) Actually, US land is not as productive as land in places like Japan, which has a longer growing season and much more rain. Third world farmers barely survive on 0.1 ha per person (0.25 acres). Okay, so 4,000 kcal = 16.7 MJ, and there are 86,400 seconds per day, so that comes to 193 W, which is close to the estimate for basal metabolism plus the amount of work you do in a day. 0.25 acres = 1012 m^2, so that's 0.2 W/m^2, over the course of a year. That is about in line with what I estimated before. Remember this is for land without modern agriculture; i.e., no energy input. Of course, a person does not get to eat every calorie of food grown in a garden. Insects eat a significant amount, there is spoilage, bacteria, stalks, pea pods and other left-overs which are plowed back into the ground. Still, people and other animals are remarkably good at exploiting food resources, so it is a reasonable estimate that we eat about 2/5ths of the food calories. (We excrete some of them, but I have accounted for that already.) That brings us back to Pimentel's estimate. Any questions? - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 18 08:25:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9IFOYd3002959; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 08:24:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9IFLCfP001257; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 08:21:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 08:21:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051018105123.04412eb0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 11:20:00 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Ad hominem arguments are logically false In-Reply-To: <43546177.4080202 pobox.com> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051017185658.04e1f2a0 pop.mindspring.com> <43546177.4080202 pobox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63847 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >>Please note that I object to invalid logic, not politically incorrect >>statements. I do not give a fig about political correctness. > >I know. I still chuckle a little every time I think of the Vortex post in >which you complimented some public figure by comparing him to a Nazi >general. Now _that_ was politically incorrect! That would be Edwin Rommel, a man I admire a great deal. He was one of the greatest generals of the 20th century, and personally a nice, humane man, beloved of his the subordinates. It is a darn shame he was not on our side. For similar reasons, I admire two other commanders who fought against the US: Robert E. Lee, and Isoroku Yamamoto. >>[Hirohito] thought he was a living God. He thought his country had the >>right to attack the US at Pearl Harbor, and to slaughter millions of >>Chinese people. For Bix to criticize Hirohito's politics is perfectly >>valid. It is *not* ad hominem, > >YES IT IS. It _is_ ad hominem, but it is _not_ irrelevant in that >context. Please do not conflate the two! I think you are missing my point. Bix's statements about Hirohito are an ad hominem attack, obviously, but they are not an example of the ad hominem logical fallacy. In the context of politics, it is logical to attack personality. In the context of marine biology, I do not see how Hirohito's political views could have affected his judgment, and it is readily apparent from his papers that they did not. His papers are logical and rigorous, and they passed peer review. (As far as I know he did not have a ghost writer.) >. . . I don't see how you can argue that a criticism of Hirohito's beliefs >on the grounds that they were "racist", "abominable" (define _that_ >objectively, if you can), and "crazy" is anything but "ad hominem". It's >an attack on Hirohito himself . . . Yes, of course it is, but not a logical fallacy, or invalid ad hominem argument. My point regarding Pimentel was that even if he is a member of the Ku Klux Klan, his estimates of biomass productivity can be independently checked against other authoritative sources and against my back-of-the-envelope totally unauthoritative estimate, and it is clear that he is correct. Perhaps if Pimentel is a racist that would explain his motivation for publishing these figures and for opposing immigration. But not necessarily. I do not think I am a racist, and in my book (chapter 18), I have gone on record as being in favor of abolishing all national borders, establishing a world government, and letting all people "live anywhere in the solar system they please." Yet I think it would not be a good idea to abolish the US Mexican border now, at this stage in history. As I said yesterday, that would only encourage Mexico to export its population explosion to us, instead of fixing it. National borders should be abolished in the future when all nations become roughly equal in wealth per capita, and in political freedom, rule of law, longevity, environmental standards and so on. This has been the rule for admitting new members into the EU. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 18 08:30:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9IFTKKn005784; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 08:29:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9IFSqqa005544; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 08:28:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 08:28:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003f01c5d3f8$8727cd90$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: A Simple-Plot for self-sufficiency Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 08:28:01 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <4JSbW.A.bWB.ySRVDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63849 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: It's not easy to dramatize potato farming. But if anyone can do, it would probably happen in Idaho. After all, the potato king - Jack Simplot was able to outdo the giants of Silicon Valley and Japan to become the only successful US startup in computer memory chips - with Micron Technologies, which he bankrolled. Even Intel, AMD and NEC could not compete in this market, now dominated by the Koreans. Simplot's legacy lives-on in many ways in Idaho - proving that potatoes and hi-tek progress do mix. One of the latest ways that this spirit of innovation might materialize to the benefit of us all is through energy self-sufficiency. Simplot is making ethanol and aquanol from potato waste already, and has funded another startup to make "SmartPlugs". This is a catalytic plasma spark plug, and they are moving into mass production with it for the retrofit market: http://www.smartplugs.com/about.htm Even without "aquanol" or the improvements to that particular fuel, SmartPlugs have been proven to go beyond the lean-burn limit of a standard spark ignition. Lean-burn is the ability to ignite air and fuel mixtures that contain higher amounts of air than normally used. If Detroit decides to get into the act with a redesigned engine for aquanol-based fuels - then another major milestone will have been reached in the goal of US energy self-sufficiency. Unfortunately, for environmentalists, Detroit suffers mightily from the "not invented here" syndrome and the fact that most of the outstanding shares of GM and Ford are controlled by petroleum interests through pension funds. Maybe it is time for the Koreans to step in again, as they have little fossil fuel and can grow grass there, despite the abominable weather, and can make automobiles as well. Sounds like a match made in heaven and I hope the Simplot heirs are listening (are they known as tater-tots?) Over the last two years, successful attempts have been made to combine the SmartPlug design with aqueous fuel technology - in order to capture the benefits of lean-burning with undistilled fuel - and without sacrificing power output. The aqueous fuel is a mixture of water and ethanol called Aquanol. The fuel is produced by Simplot Corporation in Caldwell, Idaho. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 18 08:42:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9IFcee8010970; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 08:40:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9IFMbDU001988; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 08:22:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 08:22:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43551303.7090103 pobox.com> Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 11:21:39 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.10) Gecko/20050719 Fedora/1.7.10-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Is Alkane-Aquanol the Oil-free answer? References: <017501c5d355$abc14c60$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051017161255.04f51eb0@pop.mindspring.com> <000b01c5d368$5fe882a0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051017182210.04e01670@pop.mindspring.com> <003801c5d372$2e476310$6401a8c0@NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051017193231.04dfb8d0@pop.mindspring.com> <031501c5d37b$619f11a0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051018094829.04645dc0@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20051018094829.04645dc0 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63848 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Jones Beene wrote: > >>> The efficiency of the system is irrelevant. If every single leaf, >>> grass, branch and food crop that grows in North America were >>> converted into ethanol with 100% efficiency it would not be anywhere >>> near enough. >> >> >> Whoa !!! This is so outrageously false it defies the imagination !!!! > > > Nope. It is correct, as I shall show below. > > >> Don't you have a calculator? > > > As a matter of fact, I do. Let's go over three methods of estimating > this. > > Method 1. You estimated 40 tons of wood per acre. Assuming those are > metric tons, that's 40,000 kg per 4047 square meters, or 10 kg per > meter. Ordinary wood produces 15 MJ per kg, so that's 150 MJ/year. > There are 31,557,600 seconds per year, so that comes to 5 watts per > m^2. I find that a little implausible I believe Jones corrected that 40 tons/acre number in a later post; it was a tad high. The E-grass article which has been linked here indicated about half that for a typical result, IIRC, and I believe it was E-grass Jones was thinking of when he cited the very high dry yield/acre. So, figure 20 tons/acre in reasonable conditions; a bit more in Florida, a bit less in North Dakota. > but perhaps in an area where the growing season lasts all year, for > trees which shade the ground considerably, it is possible. It is > within an order of magnitude of my estimate. > > Method 2. Take the entire US land area and divide by population. You > get about 2 ha per person, but unfortunately half that land is not > arable. It is desert, steep rocky mountain, asphalt or Wall Mart > floorspace. Arable land in the US is estimated at about a hectare per > person. In Florida or the tropics with the Sun directly overhead is > produces about 1020 kW per square meter > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power), but in the US lower 48 > it's about 900 Watts I think. Photosynthesis is roughly 0.1% > effective, so that comes to 0.9 watts/m^2. Elephant grass has supposedly been found to operate a bit more efficiently than (at least) some other plants, so the appropriate number for an E-grass farm may be higher than 0.1 %. But since that 0.1 is probably only good to one digit the difference isn't likely to be significant. > However, the sun only shines 12 hours per day, and in the US the > growing season is six months per year, so that comes to about 0.23 > W/m^2. In Florida, maybe 0.5 W/m^2. > > As I said, the average American has about 1 ha of productive land per > person (10,000 m^2), so this comes to 2.3 kW continuous power. That is > impressive. It is enough to run your house and your car, but > unfortunately Americans use a lot more energy than that. See the > Annual Energy Review, Table 1.5. The total is 338 million BTU per > capita, or 356,609 MJ. Divide jules by seconds per year (31,557,600) > and you get 11.3 kW continuous consumption, almost all of it fossil > fuel. In other words, my back-of-the-envelope estimate is that we > consume roughly four times more than all photosynthesis creates, > whereas Pimentel, using a much more sophisticated and careful method, > came up with two times more than all photosynthesis. (Yesterday I said > that farmland produces only about one third as much biomass as the > fossil fuel we consume. The numbers I am estimating here is for all > land including national parks and other non-farmland, which Pimentel > estimates at 50% of fossil fuel.) > > Very roughly, Pimentel is estimating that the average U.S. land per > capita produces 5 kW/ha continuously, or 0.5 watts. That is somewhat > more optimistic than me, but still an order of magnitude below your > optimum tree growing area. That's quite plausible. Even on the land I > own, some areas are far more productive than others. Are you sure this > does not include fertilizer? That would be an external energy input. "Miscanthus has few needs as it outgrows weeds, requires little water and minimal fertilizer and thrives in untilled fields" Not clear what "minimal fertilizer" means -- was there a better link posted for this? That quote's from the Science Daily article which was pretty fluffy. > > Method 2. Take the old rule of thumb that in hard times an acre garden > can support a family of four. This was true in the UK and the US, in > the preindustrial era without massive amounts of fertilizer. (You can > ignore animal or tractor input energy because that does not increase > yields much. Mainly it reduces human labor.) Assume the family follows > the European tradition, and disposes of human waste elsewhere, but it > brings in a roughly an equal amount of animal manure. Plus the family > mulches kitchen scraps, such as pea pods and corn silk. The RDA diet > is about 2000 kcal per day, although I doubt that a premodern family > of four scraping by with an acre garden ate 8000 kcal per day, let's > say they did. To put it another way, a person with a modern quarter > acre garden can grow just about all the food he eats, assuming he > trades some of it to avoid dietary monotony. My mother-in-law lives on > this amount of land. (She has plenty of other land for cash crops.) > Actually, US land is not as productive as land in places like Japan, > which has a longer growing season and much more rain. Third world > farmers barely survive on 0.1 ha per person (0.25 acres). > > Okay, so 4,000 kcal = 16.7 MJ, and there are 86,400 seconds per day, > so that comes to 193 W, which is close to the estimate for basal > metabolism plus the amount of work you do in a day. 0.25 acres = 1012 > m^2, so that's 0.2 W/m^2, over the course of a year. That is about in > line with what I estimated before. Remember this is for land without > modern agriculture; i.e., no energy input. Of course, a person does > not get to eat every calorie of food grown in a garden. Insects eat a > significant amount, there is spoilage, bacteria, stalks, pea pods and > other left-overs which are plowed back into the ground. Still, people > and other animals are remarkably good at exploiting food resources, so > it is a reasonable estimate that we eat about 2/5ths of the food > calories. (We excrete some of them, but I have accounted for that > already.) That brings us back to Pimentel's estimate. > > Any questions? Isn't it Brazil that's "growing fuel" on a large scale at this point? Why are they doing that if it's an energy-negative process? Is it just politics, or something about the situation there that makes it work for them? (This is actually a serious question, though I may have the countries confused -- I may be thinking of a different S.A. country.) > > - Jed > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 18 08:46:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9IFjG3F014629; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 08:45:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9IFj7x4014496; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 08:45:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 08:45:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051018112032.04418310 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 11:38:38 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Is Alkane-Aquanol the Oil-free answer? In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20051018094829.04645dc0 pop.mindspring.com> References: <017501c5d355$abc14c60$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051017161255.04f51eb0 pop.mindspring.com> <000b01c5d368$5fe882a0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051017182210.04e01670 pop.mindspring.com> <003801c5d372$2e476310$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051017193231.04dfb8d0 pop.mindspring.com> <031501c5d37b$619f11a0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051018094829.04645dc0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63850 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: >Method 2. Take the old rule of thumb that in hard times an acre garden can >support a family of four. . . . That should be method 4. This estimate was made by my mother-in-law, who in fact does live on produce from her garden, and my mother, who studied agronomy and agricultural economics at Cornell University, College of Agriculture, class of 1939. I mean good land in a place with a lot of rain such as in Georgia, Iowa or Pennsylvania, not Texas. Rain is limiting factor for agriculture production in the US. When you grow trees in the bayou of Louisiana, you are inputting a great deal of energy from land area and swamp outside of your property. This includes things like topsoil run off, aquatic plants, fish which eat from a wide area outside your land, and so on. Willow trees and bull rushes growing in a pond in Pennsylvania produce fabulous amounts of biomass per year, but the collection area includes the entire pond, with the fish, fish manure, and aquatic plants in it which nourish the plant growth alongside the pond. Large-scale direct solar energy is much more promising than continental-scale biomass because solar converters are 250 times more efficient than plants, they work in wintertime as well as summer (albeit not as well), and because solar converters work best when they are located in desert areas such as Nevada, where the sun is brightest and the weather is seldom cloudy. There is little useful biomass in these areas, so we will not have sacrifice productive farmland. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 18 09:11:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9IGA1cn027836; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 09:10:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9IG9YtR027526; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 09:09:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 09:09:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <005001c5d3fd$45166790$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <017501c5d355$abc14c60$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051017161255.04f51eb0@pop.mindspring.com> <000b01c5d368$5fe882a0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051017182210.04e01670@pop.mindspring.com> <003801c5d372$2e476310$6401a8c0@NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051017193231.04dfb8d0@pop.mindspring.com> <031501c5d37b$619f11a0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051018094829.04645dc0@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Is Alkane-Aquanol the Oil-free answer? Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 09:01:58 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <5fZ5WD.A.gtG.v4RVDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63851 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Any questions? Jed, No, the errors are blatantly obvious already ! And about the best you have done is reproven the old adage that there are "lies, damn lies, and statistics!" I shouldn't be too smug about this, as I am often guilty of the same reliance on published material, which is too-often grossly in error. And you have admitted as much when you say, "Very roughly, Pimentel is estimating that the average U.S. land per capita produces 5 kW/ha continuously, or 0.5 watts. That is somewhat more optimistic than me, but still an order of magnitude below your optimum tree growing area." Yes, but my figures are based on actual fact - not crazy statisitcs! Huge difference! In fact the *fatal* error in this particular argument is rather easy to spot: "Photosynthesis is roughly 0.1% effective, so that comes to 0.9 watts/m^2." Actually this is a factor of at least 10 too low for biomass cropland. This order-of-magnitude kind of error does tend to throw everything which follows way off-keel. Here is the visible proof. I suppose this article below is a also figment of some journalist's imagination (someone who forgeot to consult Pimentel) and who is ignorant of the fact that you can produce about 10 times more energy per acre than is even possible - according to his unfallible statistics. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/09/050928080411.htm But you see, this is *actual* proof, not some manufactured statistic. It is proof of an output of 500 million BTUs per acre per year. There can be little doubt of this. NREL says this is average - not exceptional. Maybe it cannot be maintained over the decades, due to soil depletion without fertilizer, but that is not what you are arguing. An acre is roughly 4,050 square meters 500 million BTUs is 146, 437 Kwh. The proven yearly output is 36+ Kwh per square meter. A square meter gets less than 1,000 watts in peak solar irradiation per year (in Illinois, where this photo was taken) and there are about 4000 hours of useful sunlight per year (let's round it off to 3,600 to make a point) ERGO "Photosynthesis is proven in actual harvesting to be roughly 1% effective at capturing solar energy, and not the flawed figure of 1/10 percent of Pimentel - which is 10 times less !!! OK maybe we should deduct 10-20 percent of this for fertilizer since we want to be really self-sustaining but still this is easy doable! I hope by now you have seen the futility of relying on this moron, Pimentel. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 18 10:06:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9IH60UU004420; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 10:06:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9IH4BDY002536; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 10:04:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 10:04:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051018122508.0441be20 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 13:02:49 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Is Alkane-Aquanol the Oil-free answer? In-Reply-To: <005001c5d3fd$45166790$6401a8c0 NuDell> References: <017501c5d355$abc14c60$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051017161255.04f51eb0 pop.mindspring.com> <000b01c5d368$5fe882a0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051017182210.04e01670 pop.mindspring.com> <003801c5d372$2e476310$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051017193231.04dfb8d0 pop.mindspring.com> <031501c5d37b$619f11a0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051018094829.04645dc0 pop.mindspring.com> <005001c5d3fd$45166790$6401a8c0 NuDell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63852 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >Huge difference! In fact the *fatal* error in this particular argument is >rather easy to spot: "Photosynthesis is roughly 0.1% effective, so that >comes to 0.9 watts/m^2." Every reference I have seen, from the USDA, the Dept. of Biology, Tokai U., and other sources, indicates that photosynthesis is 0.1% effective for most plants. Some plants do better than others, and researchers are developing even better ones, but I do not think any reach 1%, except in plant factories with ideal lighting and enhanced CO2 concentration. If you have some authoritative source that shows otherwise, please list it. The article you listed does not lead to that conclusion. You have miscalculated. >http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/09/050928080411.htm > >But you see, this is *actual* proof, not some manufactured statistic. It >is proof of an output of 500 million BTUs per acre per year. Where does it say this? Also, where does it say 1% efficiency? You must referencing some other article. 500 million BTU per acre equals 527,528 MJ. If it is 1% efficient at capturing solar energy, as you say, that would call for solar intensity of 4 watts/m^2 for the entire year. Since you get sunlight at most 1/4th of the time (counting night and winter, ignoring rain), that's 16 watts during daylight growing season. If efficiency is 1%, as you say, solar intensity must be 1,600 watts. I think your estimate comes out to be something like 0.5%. That's much better than the average plant, at 0.1%. It is plausible. Plants can be bred to enhance some aspect beyond the natural limit. For example, the seed density of domesticated corn is much higher than any natural plant. The downside is that corn cannot survive without intense human assistance. Enhancing one aspect usually weakens the plant some other way. > There can be little doubt of this. NREL says this is average - not > exceptional. Maybe it cannot be maintained over the decades, due to soil > depletion without fertilizer, but that is not what you are arguing. Actually, I covered that. All modern U.S. farming produces more than the natural limit for the land as a whole, because additional energy in the form of fertilizer is added, and additional water from irrigation is added. If you could irrigate and fertilize the entire US, including the deserts, obviously the total amount of biomass would increase by a huge amount. It would be far higher than Pimentel's estimate of 0.5 W/m^2. Anyone who irrigates a garden or has trees growing next to a pond will see much better productivity than that. For that matter if you could build gigantic greenhouses and Japanese-style food factories, you could grow all of the food we now eat in an area the size of greater New York City. (See my book, chapter 16) By the way, this estimate of productivity per square meter has nothing to do with 0.1% efficiency of photosynthesis. That would only be limiting factor with ground crops, such as grass or strawberries. A tree intercepts much more light than the amount of ground directly under the tree. In other words, the shade of the tree extends far beyond it. If you have a large tree growing next to your house it shades the whole house, greatly reducing air-conditioner cost. Crops such as tomatoes also shade a large area. The way they grow them in Japan, they reach 5 meters into the air. >I hope by now you have seen the futility of relying on this moron, Pimentel. I suggest you read his book before you make comments like this. Note that he has several dozen co-authors in the book, and 40 pages of references. Are you really asserting that hundreds of experts from the USDA, Cornell, and other leading agriculture research institutions are morons? You remind me of the people who claim that all cold fusion researchers are incapable of measuring heat. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 18 10:32:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9IHUsua029673; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 10:31:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9IHCmst010865; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 10:12:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 10:12:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <4enk62$anhg1r mxip28a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.97,228,1125892800"; d="scan'208"; a="360235067:sNHT16491892" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: OrionWorks Organization: OrionWorks To: CC: Subject: Re: Is Alkane-Aquanol the Oil-free answer? Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 12:11:41 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63853 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Stephen A. Lawrence ... > Isn't it Brazil that's "growing fuel" on a large scale at > this point? Why are they doing that if it's an energy >-negative process? Is it just politics, or something > about the situation there that makes it work for them? > (This is actually a serious question, though I may have the > countries confused -- I may be thinking of a different > S.A. country.) I believe you are correct, Stephen. Brazil produces a lot of "crop" fuels - alcohol, lots of it. They must be doing something right. While the on-going debate between Jed and Jonse is indeed entertaining it might be useful to check the status of Brazil's energy independence these days. Things I'd like to know are: Just how energy independent is Brazil? How much oil (imported and/or domestic) does Brazil still have to burn simply to run their economy - and then some to produce the fertilizer they need to grow the crops that are eventually turned into alcohol. These might be useful questions that could help settle the recent theoretical issues brought up concerning how practical crop fuels might turn out to be. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 18 10:40:01 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9IHclwc004872; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 10:39:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9IHcfLS004644; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 10:38:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 10:38:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051018114605.044138e0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 12:10:34 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Is Alkane-Aquanol the Oil-free answer? In-Reply-To: <43551303.7090103 pobox.com> References: <017501c5d355$abc14c60$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051017161255.04f51eb0 pop.mindspring.com> <000b01c5d368$5fe882a0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051017182210.04e01670 pop.mindspring.com> <003801c5d372$2e476310$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051017193231.04dfb8d0 pop.mindspring.com> <031501c5d37b$619f11a0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051018094829.04645dc0 pop.mindspring.com> <43551303.7090103 pobox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63854 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >very high dry yield/acre. So, figure 20 tons/acre in reasonable >conditions; a bit more in Florida, a bit less in North Dakota. The difference between Florida and Dakota is very large. It is at least a factor of two, because of winter, and probably a factor of ~10, because water is a major limiting factor in North America. >Isn't it Brazil that's "growing fuel" on a large scale at this point? >Why are they doing that if it's an energy-negative process? It is not an energy negative process. That is not what Pimentel says. He says that in North America, using present-day methods and typical US agricultural energy inputs (mechanized farming and fertilizer), ethanol production from corn is an energy negative process. He says that using biomass for direct energy production, such as burning wood, is energy positive. Another example would be burning peanut shells in a peanut processing plant. The ethanol industry claims that ethanol production requires 0.6 BTU to make 1.0 BTU of fuel. If that is true it is ridiculous -- it is the most uneconomical energy system in history. With improved biologically based conversion, ethanol production from corn may become an energy positive process. If it reaches 0.3 BTU per 1.0 BTU of fuel, it will be economical, although it will still be taking food out of the mouths of people, and it will still destroy the land, which is unethical in my opinion. The situation in Brazil is different for two reasons: 1. There is a lot of land per capita and it is highly productive, and 2. There are many starving peasants, especially women and children, who will work for a pittance. Biomass is grown mainly with human and animal labor, rather than tractors and fossil fuel energy. What it boils down to is that rich people in Brazil drive cars which are powered by the sweat of children who cannot afford to go to school. That is not a good system, in my opinion. Modern agriculture in Brazil, the US and nearly everywhere in the world is rapidly and irrevocably destroying the land, the ecology, the topsoil and the water table. It is not a renewable process. Mesopotamia (Iraq) was once called the Golden Crescent, being the most productive and beautiful farmland on earth. Thanks to ancient farmers today it is hell on earth. Modern farmers are producing the same effect on a far swifter timescale. If we do not change our agriculture, in 200 to 500 years the US and Brazil will look like Iraq. I propose a radical solution. See my book, chapter 16. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 18 10:45:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9IHirB9010700; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 10:45:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9IHii72010507; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 10:44:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 10:44:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051018133707.044166e0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 13:44:03 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: ERWIN Rommel In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20051018105123.04412eb0 pop.mindspring.com> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051017185658.04e1f2a0 pop.mindspring.com> <43546177.4080202 pobox.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20051018105123.04412eb0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63855 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: >That would be Edwin Rommel, a man I admire a great deal. I meant Erwin Rommel. I probably said that, too, but thanks to voice input it came out Edwin. It is a shame Rommel's ancestors did not move to the US, the way Eisenhower's did. He might have been one of our greatest commanders. And if Robert E. Lee's family had settled a few miles away in Maryland, instead of Virginia . . . Sometimes there is only a paper-thin difference between a hero and a villain. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 18 11:26:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9IIPqlG008914; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 11:26:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9IIPhxP008852; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 11:25:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 11:25:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001401c5d40c$6b7cbc40$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <017501c5d355$abc14c60$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051017161255.04f51eb0@pop.mindspring.com> <000b01c5d368$5fe882a0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051017182210.04e01670@pop.mindspring.com> <003801c5d372$2e476310$6401a8c0@NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051017193231.04dfb8d0@pop.mindspring.com> <031501c5d37b$619f11a0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051018094829.04645dc0@pop.mindspring.com> <005001c5d3fd$45166790$6401a8c0@NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051018122508.0441be20@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Is Alkane-Aquanol the Oil-free answer? Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 10:50:24 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63856 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell writes, >>Huge difference! In fact the *fatal* error in this particular >>argument is rather easy to spot: "Photosynthesis is roughly 0.1% >>effective, so that comes to 0.9 watts/m^2." > Every reference I have seen, from the USDA, the Dept. of > Biology, Tokai U., and other sources, indicates that > photosynthesis is 0.1% effective for most plants. Ah, don't you see the logical error of over-generalization which you are commiting here? It is crazy to confuse an "average figure for mosts plants" - which by definition will need to include all plants on all terrains - from desert cacti to alpine bristlecones, with the figure for the best plant under average conditions. The average for all plants is absolutely immaterial as to what can be done using the best plant for self-sutainablity, on average farmland and average weather. This is a huge distinction, a 10-1 distinction, which you seem to be deliberately "talking past." To solve the national problem (goal) of energy self-sufficiency, one must ignore "most plants" and focus on what can be done on average farmland with the best plants using known farming techniques - which does include fertilizer but not necessarily petroleum based fertilizer. This new agriculture R&D is now proven, no specualtion involved - but this was unknown to even the best USDA statistics-clerk of 40 years ago, who was compliling some of these erroneous figures- which BTW are not relied on by anyone in NREL these days. >You have miscalculated. Nope. You have relied on false data. > 500 million BTU per acre equals 527,528 MJ. If it is 1% > efficient at capturing solar energy, as you say, that would call > for solar intensity of 4 watts/m^2 for the entire year. Since > you get sunlight at most 1/4th of the time (counting night and > winter, ignoring rain), that's 16 watts during daylight growing > season. If efficiency is 1%, as you say, solar intensity must be > 1,600 watts. No. The error here in your premise is obvious in the "1/4 of the time"... plants can convert solar energy during rain, clouds and winter - if they are frost tolerant. When you make those adjustments back to the 3600 hours as mentioned, then we are back to the less than 1000 watts per square meter, which was my original premise for the 1% figure. There is no error here. >>I hope by now you have seen the futility of relying on this >>moron, Pimentel. > I suggest you read his book before you make comments like this. Absurd suggestion! To read an obviously erroneous pile of outdated BS, which every scientist associated with ethanol has said is grossly in error - that is a total waste of my time. I suggest you toss Pimentel into the round file, and move-on to real solutions for this problem of imported oil. We have a range of real formative solutions which are in the making here, and all of us who are looking for something better than Arab oil, should share in the excitement of this discovery. Fred has been harping on this for months, and only this week did the whole picture start fitting together for me. Previously, I had thought he was being over optimistic. We are on the verge on a landslide shift in the way we produce and utilize energy for transportation, and it looks like "sustainable hydrated liquid fuels" will be a huge part of this national reawakening to our hidden strength - which has always been based on productive farming. As a journalist who has opened many eyes on the value of LENR and wind-energy (including my own) you can be part of the problem, when it comes to "dissing" the newer ethanol technology, or part of the solution. This does not mean foregoing wind or LENR - they are obviously important, but offer little hope for the transportation segment. An obstinate refusal to see the obvious errors in your undelying resource, and to fail to follow the latest work, now makes you part of the larger problem; and, excuse the hyperbole, but there is no easy way to say it other than "an unwitting tool" of big-oil regarding the promise of ethanol. If big-oil can delay the inevitable shift to sustainable fuels for 5 more years - that alone is probably worth 100 billion dollars in cold hard-cash to them in profits - out of the consumers pocket and into theirs. This money could be better spent on the infrastructure which will hasten their ultimate demise. Personally, big-oil may succeed, never under-estimate the power of deep pockets, but it will not be for lack of trying on my part (trying to present the other side of the story, that is). Not to mention, the farm-lobby is almost as powerful as big-oil in the smoke-filled rooms of the GOP. That is our only hope for countering "deep-pockets." Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 18 11:48:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9IIlhqW024546; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 11:48:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9IIlgUB024521; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 11:47:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 11:47:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051018134958.04416440 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 14:47:15 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Correction & clarifications about 0.1% photosynthesis efficiency Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63857 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I have been harping on about 0.1% photosynthesis efficiency. I used this number in chapter 16 of my book. Actually, I just realized I am off by a large margin because, as Pimentel and other sources say, this is the annual average for North America. In the book, I had this right: "Plants growing outdoor in temperate climates photosynthesize and store less than 0.1% of the sunlight that reaches the ground year-round, mainly because they do not grow in winter." When you crank those numbers through the spreadsheets, my estimate comes out much closer to Pimentel's and other authoritative sources, at roughly 0.4 or 0.5% during the growing season. It is also reasonably close to 500 million BTU per acre per year in the article cited by Beene. Here are some important clarifications. This is a rule of thumb for native North American plants growing in natural conditions only. Anyone can take a plant and enhance the rate of growth with water, fertilizer, insecticides and so on. As anyone knows, some plants grow much faster than others. The Japanese kudzu plant grows very fast, so I assume it is adapted to very efficient photosynthesis. Japan is very wet, sunny and subtropical. You can practically watch the bamboo grow there. Enhanced photosynthesis is a good survival technique there, but it would not work in North Dakota. This 0.1% for the plant as a whole, including woody portions. Rates quoted for the leaf surface will be higher. This number is a rule of thumb only, as I said. It is quoted in books on agriculture, and by publications by NASA on long-term space flight. I discussed it with Pimentel and with the experts at Tokai University, as noted in the footnotes in chapter 16. Photosynthesis is well understood and a more technically accurate number for any given species can be determined. The biochemistry and controlling parameters are discussed on page 283 through 285 of P. Eckart, "Space Flight Life Support and Biospherics," (Kluwer Academic Publishers, 1994). As I said, water and air temperature of the limiting factors to plant growth in North America, not sunlight. Sunlight during the winter is wasted. Up until now, plant researchers have had no incentive to improve overall biomass production by breeding plants or looking for new species. There has been no point. Researchers have concentrated instead on finding food that tastes better or is more resistant to insects and drought. Now that people are interested in growing a large amount of biomass for fuel in North America, they may well find or breed new species that are better suited for this purpose. These plants will not be ten times better or hundred times better. They will never approach the effectiveness of solar thermal or photovoltaic conversion. On the other hand they will probably be much cheaper that PV per MJ of energy, so in places where people have lots of space and sunlight they will be a good choice. (They already are; a large fraction of US houses are heated with firewood.) I doubt that enhanced plants will ever be three times as good as conventional plants, and even if they were, we would have to replace all of our crops with the new species in order to produce the fuel we need, so we would starve to death. I do not think we can replace more than a small fraction, perhaps 10%, so it is clear that biomass grown outdoors in normal conditions in North America can only satisfy a small fraction of our energy requirements. Please note this analysis does not apply to Brazil or for that matter to the state of Illinois. The article in Science Daily said: "Using a computer simulator, Heaton predicted that if just 10 percent of Illinois land mass was devoted to Miscanthus, it could provide 50 percent of Illinois electricity needs." The land is fertile in Illinois. It is open, flat, and there is plenty of rain. This would not work in Southern California, or Connecticut. It is somewhat like saying "wind turbines could easily supply all of the electricity in North Dakota." Yes, they could, but they could not supply all of the electricity in Georgia. At present, it is much more efficient to burn biomass directly, rather than converting it into liquid fuel. This may change as the technology evolves. Liquid fuel would be much more useful to society since it could displace oil. Beene emphasized the potential reduction in oil, rather than overall energy. At present, biomass is a better replacement for coal than oil, but this might change. However, if we have a limited budget to invest in technology to reduce oil consumption, it would be more cost-effective to invest in plug it hybrid automobiles. As noted previously, G. Schultz and J. Woolsey showed that plug-in hybrids could reduce oil consumption by factors ranging from 100 to 1000. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 18 11:55:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9IItNfA029955; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 11:55:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9IItK2J029917; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 11:55:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 11:55:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001f01c5d40d$99e0ff50$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: Cc: References: <4enk62$anhg1r mxip28a.cluster1.charter.net> Subject: Re: Is Alkane-Aquanol the Oil-free answer? Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 10:58:52 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63858 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: SVJ: > I believe you are correct, Stephen. Brazil produces a lot of > "crop" fuels - alcohol, lots of it. They must be doing something > right. > While the on-going debate between Jed and Jonse is indeed > entertaining it might be useful to check the status of Brazil's > energy independence these days. http://www.greencarcongress.com/2004/06/brazil_ag_and_b.html Imagine what they can do when they switch from sugar (as the ethanol feedstock) to biomass. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 18 12:03:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9IJ2uAU001607; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 12:03:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9IJ2sUx001575; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 12:02:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 12:02:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051018144744.04466680 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 15:02:25 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Is Alkane-Aquanol the Oil-free answer? In-Reply-To: <001401c5d40c$6b7cbc40$6401a8c0 NuDell> References: <017501c5d355$abc14c60$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051017161255.04f51eb0 pop.mindspring.com> <000b01c5d368$5fe882a0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051017182210.04e01670 pop.mindspring.com> <003801c5d372$2e476310$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051017193231.04dfb8d0 pop.mindspring.com> <031501c5d37b$619f11a0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051018094829.04645dc0 pop.mindspring.com> <005001c5d3fd$45166790$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051018122508.0441be20 pop.mindspring.com> <001401c5d40c$6b7cbc40$6401a8c0 NuDell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <3-xy7.A.dY.dbUVDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63859 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >It is crazy to confuse an "average figure for mosts plants" - which by >definition will need to include all plants on all terrains - from desert >cacti to alpine bristlecones, with the figure for the best plant under >average conditions. This is the average for the US. Most US plant mass is not cacti. >No. The error here in your premise is obvious in the "1/4 of the time"... >plants can convert solar energy during rain, clouds and winter - if they >are frost tolerant. As noted in a message I just posted, I had that wrong. The 0.1% is for the year as a whole, after subtracting winter and foul weather. This brings the total in line with your 500 million BTU. Actually, you and Pimentel now agree. Of course I realize some plans to grow in winter, but the rate of growth is lower, and you can ignore that for a rough estimate. >>I suggest you read his book before you make comments like this. > >Absurd suggestion! To read an obviously erroneous pile of outdated BS . . . I think you are making a fool of yourself judging a work you have not read, and condemning a long list of experts from dozens of different institutions. Also, as I said, the claim is made not only in this book by this author but in several others. Are you really so sure that you know more than the people at Cornell, the USDA and Tokai University? I doubt it. >. . . which every scientist associated with ethanol has said is grossly in >error . . . They do not say Pimentel's estimate is grossly in error. He claims the ratio varies from 1.4 ~ 1.7 BTU to 1.0 BTU (depending on various factors). The scientist associated with ethanol, and the industry flacks, claim the ratio is 0.6 BTU to 1.0 BTU. From the point of view of economics, those two numbers are equally absurd. When you go to Las Vegas, do you want to throw away 60% of your money or all of it? Either way you might as well burn money as ethanol. >I suggest you toss Pimentel into the round file, and move-on to real >solutions for this problem of imported oil. Biomass is not a real solution in my opinion. Plug in hybrids certainly are. We spend hundreds of millions of dollars a year on ethanol. If we would stop doing that and invest that money in plug in hybrids instead, we would make very significant progress reducing oil imports. And if we could spend perhaps $10 million on cold fusion instead . . . - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 18 12:32:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9IJWMQi023797; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 12:32:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9IJWLak023782; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 12:32:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 12:32:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051018150445.04418a00 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 15:31:42 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Sugar production in Brazil In-Reply-To: <4enk62$anhg1r mxip28a.cluster1.charter.net> References: <4enk62$anhg1r mxip28a.cluster1.charter.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j9IJW4mI023577 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63860 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: OrionWorks wrote: >I believe you are correct, Stephen. Brazil produces a lot of "crop" fuels >- alcohol, lots of it. They must be doing something right. As I mentioned, according to my friends in the human rights business, what they are doing is exploiting peasants to make fuel for the middle and upper classes. They work men death by demanding they cut 9 to 10 tons of cane per day, instead of 4.5 tons. They grow crop fuels with human and animal labor. Sugar production in Brazil is like oil production in Texas or Saudi Arabia: it is a one-resource non-renewable source of energy that spreads poverty, magnifies class differences, forces peasant farmers from their land, and destroys the land and that nation. See: http://www.rel-uita.org/agricultura/azucar-amarga-eng.htm So much for the dreams of naïve environmentalists. Many of the policies they have advocated over the years have degenerated into this kind of nightmare. Oh, and by the way, they are lobbying to export millions of tons of the alcohol to the US. I'm sure the Congress will leap at yet another opportunity to import the products of slave labor, and to promote human misery and environmental havoc abroad. The one advantage it does have is that it is energy positive, according to most experts, including Pimental. Based on data from Ghirardi, da Silva and others, he estimates that it takes about a half-liter of petroleum to produce 1 liter of ethanol. He notes that Brazilian sugar cane based alcohol plants produce about two thirds of the waste produced by the total human population of Brazil. (Desai et al., 1980). - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 18 12:40:21 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9IJdsFf027783; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 12:40:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9IJdqXU027761; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 12:39:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 12:39:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051018153537.0441c0d0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 15:39:25 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Is Alkane-Aquanol the Oil-free answer? In-Reply-To: <001f01c5d40d$99e0ff50$6401a8c0 NuDell> References: <4enk62$anhg1r mxip28a.cluster1.charter.net> <001f01c5d40d$99e0ff50$6401a8c0 NuDell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63861 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >http://www.greencarcongress.com/2004/06/brazil_ag_and_b.html > >Imagine what they can do when they switch from sugar (as the ethanol >feedstock) to biomass. Jones: I do not follow what you mean here. Sugar is biomass. What crop are they considering to replace it? I do not see anything about another feedstock in the Green Car article you cited. As far as I know, sugarcane is the best feedstock for ethanol with present day technology. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 18 12:51:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9IJoPxK001030; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 12:50:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9IJoNHV000983; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 12:50:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 12:50:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <48vi84$1d51unh mxip09a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.97,228,1125892800"; d="scan'208"; a="1515256561:sNHT15025956" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: OrionWorks Organization: OrionWorks To: CC: Subject: Re: Is Alkane-Aquanol the Oil-free answer? Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 14:49:54 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63862 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Jed sez: ... > The situation in Brazil is different for two reasons: 1. > There is a lot of land per capita and it is highly productive, > and 2. There are many starving peasants, especially women and > children, who will work for a pittance. Biomass is grown > mainly with human and animal labor, rather than tractors > and fossil fuel energy. What it boils down to is that rich > people in Brazil drive cars which are powered by the sweat > of children who cannot afford to go to school. That is not > a good system, in my opinion. It goes without saying that I do not support such a system. Having lived in El Salvador for three years back in the 1960s, when at that time 95% of the land was essentially owned by fourteen families I can say with some conviction that such inequalities did not bode well with the peasants. We were lucky not be assigned down in El Salvador, San Salvador (the Capital) during the election season. It was dangerous to walk around outside when it was time to vote. Occasional machine gun fire could be heard. Sound familiar? "Please sir, can I have another bowl?" Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 18 12:53:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9IJqs07002560; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 12:53:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9IJqrUS002523; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 12:52:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 12:52:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: RE: Sugar production in Brazil Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 14:52:24 -0500 Message-ID: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50A3369EC CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Sugar production in Brazil thread-index: AcXUGtOzmhC7iMf3QA+JvduZrImPXwAACs4g From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Oct 2005 19:52:26.0162 (UTC) FILETIME=[76C3F120:01C5D41D] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j9IJqVeA002331 Resent-Message-ID: <6PUZ3C.A.Xn.UKVVDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63863 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:JedRothwell mindspring.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2005 3:32 PM To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Sugar production There should be some caution about applying our standards to 3rd world labor. During the controversy about poor kids working in sweatshop factories a few years ago, a basic fact was overlooked: life is cheap in those nations. Pushing poor kids out of factories may force them into child prostitution and crime - rather than schools. Countries like Brazil have to deal with bodies of street kids left on the beach or back alleys - when employment is unavailable. Unless we're willing to take over these nations and run their affairs completely ( and that's working so well in Iraq!), we need to realize that our interventions may make things worse for people already suffering. The Law of Unintended Consequences shall always apply. Actually, I've wondered if a really cheap new energy source like cold fusion could doom the 3rd world. If Nigeria and Angola saw their oil dollars fade away, how much would we care about them? As I mentioned, according to my friends in the human rights business, what they are doing is exploiting peasants to make fuel for the middle and upper classes. They work men death by demanding they cut 9 to 10 tons of cane per day, instead of 4.5 tons. They grow crop fuels with human and animal labor. Sugar production in Brazil is like oil production in Texas or Saudi Arabia: it is a one-resource non-renewable source of energy that spreads poverty, magnifies class differences, forces peasant farmers from their land, and destroys the land and that nation. See: http://www.rel-uita.org/agricultura/azucar-amarga-eng.htm So much for the dreams of naïve environmentalists. Many of the policies they have advocated over the years have degenerated into this kind of nightmare. Oh, and by the way, they are lobbying to export millions of tons of the alcohol to the US. I'm sure the Congress will leap at yet another opportunity to import the products of slave labor, and to promote human misery and environmental havoc abroad. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 18 13:10:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9IKANbf014730; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 13:10:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9IKALqF014707; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 13:10:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 13:10:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051018155525.0444fd60 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 16:02:50 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: Sugar production in Brazil In-Reply-To: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50A3369EC CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu .clearchannel.com> References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50A3369EC CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <4wYkLC.A.qlD.taVVDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63864 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Zell, Chris wrote: >There should be some caution about applying our standards to 3rd world >labor. During the controversy about poor kids working in sweatshop factories >a few years ago, a basic fact was overlooked: life is cheap in those >nations. Pushing poor kids out of factories may force them into child >prostitution >and crime - rather than schools. Quite right. That is an important point. I advocate putting part time schools for child laborers in third-world factories. That is what enlightened factory owners did in Victorian England. Some industries that seem exploitive to us look good to the people in the Third World country. But I do not think that sugar production in Brazil is one of them. It is that it is making the overall unemployment worse, and the people who are stuck in the sugar producing areas are being forced to harvest about twice as much sugar as they used to, as noted in the article I cited. Other sources say they are being worked to death. In China there are huge numbers of displaced "illegal" workers in Beijing and other major cities. Because they do not have internal passports allowing them to live in the cities, they are like Mexicans in the US, only much worse off. The police beat them up, employers do not pay them, and their children are not allowed to go to school. They are so desperate for education that they are setting up their own cooperative schools, which is a good thing. Some Japanese people I know of are involved. Anyway, that is where your Wal-Mart pants and shirts come from, in case you are wondering. >Actually, I've wondered if a really cheap new energy source like cold >fusion could doom the 3rd world. I am afraid it might doom some countries. I listed some potentially horrible consequences of cold fusion in the book. I should add that. I discussed the possibility that CF will cause unemployment in the US, in a couple of places, notably chapter 20. >If Nigeria and Angola saw their oil dollars fade away, how much would we >care about them? We would not care at all. We do not care about them now and we will not after the advent of cold fusion. Venezuela and Russia would also be hard hit. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 18 13:21:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9IKLCP6020460; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 13:21:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9IKLB6K020447; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 13:21:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 13:21:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: marketing.cwie.net: www set sender to zak newalexandria.org using -f Message-ID: <1129666845.4355591d80298 www.cavecreek.net> Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 13:20:45 -0700 From: Zachary Jones To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: ERWIN Rommel References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051017185658.04e1f2a0 pop.mindspring.com> <43546177.4080202@pobox.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20051018105123.04412eb0@pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20051018133707.044166e0@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20051018133707.044166e0 pop.mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 3.2.2 X-Originating-IP: 149.169.62.182 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63865 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Quoting Jed Rothwell : [snip] > Virginia . . . Sometimes there is only a paper-thin difference between a > hero and a villain. > > - Jed > I suppose Rommel, Eisenhower and Lee all are excellent examples of the principle of: General Relativity -Zak ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 18 13:50:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9IKo2fC004702; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 13:50:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9IKnieF004510; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 13:49:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 13:49:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <4eo5r2$ps5gda mxip04a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.97,228,1125892800"; d="scan'208"; a="868401578:sNHT20700304" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: OrionWorks Organization: OrionWorks To: CC: Subject: RE: Sugar production in Brazil Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 15:49:00 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63866 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Zell, Chris ... > Actually, I've wondered if a really cheap new energy source > like cold fusion could doom the 3rd world. If Nigeria and > Angola saw their oil dollars fade away, how much would we > care about them? Adding to Jed's comments... I would agree. Collectively speaking U.S. citizenry probably wouldn't care much. I'm reminded of the classic 1960s movie staring Marlin Brando - "The Ugly American." We would instead be coveting our neighbor's brand new 30 terabyte HD Video IPod that runs on a small CF power pack. Indeed, the introduction of CF is not likely to be considered an economically favorable turn of affairs by the petroleum producing industries. Personally, I think Saudi Arabia would be overthown as the nation's economy suppored by dwindling oil revenues was being flushed down the toilet. In it's place a brand spankin new Theocracy - to rule the world for a thousand years, or at least until Allah returns to harshly judge everyone. Fun for all, I'm sure. OTOH, I have heard persuasive arguments that claim that much of the petroleum industry would simply re-focus on selling their product as cheap feedstock for petroleum based products: i.e. plastics etc... I think it has even been claimed that supplying the "feedstock" market might even be more lucerative than selling oil just to burn it. However, I recall that Mr. Rothwell did an impressive job of discounting this sceneario, based on the premice that if CF really did become an economic reality there would be no need to pump the gunk out of holes. We would simply produce the "feedstock" from readily available materials: Carbon and hydrogen - right out of the atmosphere, litarally. Personally, I'm not 100% convinced of this, at least not at the beginning of a hypothetical CF "golden age" when the conversion technology, possibly taking decades to perfect, is still being developed. Never the less, I'm in no mood to butt heads with Jed on one for now! ;-) Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 18 14:08:01 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9IL7RFL022872; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 14:07:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9IL7PID022823; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 14:07:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 14:07:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051018165619.03f4a880 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 17:06:56 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: Sugar production in Brazil In-Reply-To: <4eo5r2$ps5gda mxip04a.cluster1.charter.net> References: <4eo5r2$ps5gda mxip04a.cluster1.charter.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <540KDB.A.jkF.MQWVDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63867 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: OrionWorks wrote: >I think it has even been claimed that supplying the "feedstock" market >might even be more lucerative than selling oil just to burn it. I believe it is, because there is value added to the chemicals. (I should mention that in chapter 13.) >However, I recall that Mr. Rothwell did an impressive job of discounting >this sceneario, based on the premice that if CF really did become an >economic reality there would be no need to pump the gunk out of holes. See chapter 13 and the fascinating conversation Hal Puthoff had with top oil company executives. Actually, I predict that with CF, while we could synthesize hydrocarbon feedstocks out of air and water, but we will probably use thermal depolymerization plants instead. They have already been invented, and they have the added advantage of reducing solid waste and water pollution. In fact they may already be cost-effective when you account for reduced pollution. See footnote 110. We may decide to synthesize vast amounts of hydrocarbons from air and water in order to reduce the threat of global warming, but that would be another story. See chapter 9. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 18 14:14:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9ILE3ru026718; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 14:14:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9ILE1kI026679; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 14:14:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 14:14:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Subject: RE: Sugar production in Brazil Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 16:13:37 -0500 Message-ID: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50A3B6303 CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Sugar production in Brazil thread-index: AcXUJZ5yYp35EFyBTWahkin3PXWB+gAAgDgg From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Oct 2005 21:13:39.0306 (UTC) FILETIME=[CF62B4A0:01C5D428] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j9ILDduH026473 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63868 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: OrionWorks [mailto:orionworks charter.net] Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2005 4:49 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: orionworks charter.net Subject: RE: Sugar production in Brazil > From: Zell, Chris ... > Actually, I've wondered if a really cheap new energy source like cold > fusion could doom the 3rd world. If Nigeria and Angola saw their oil > dollars fade away, how much would we care about them? Adding to Jed's comments... I would agree. Collectively speaking U.S. citizenry probably wouldn't care much. I'm reminded of the classic 1960s movie staring Marlin Brando - "The Ugly American." We would instead be coveting our neighbor's brand new 30 terabyte HD Video IPod that runs on a small CF power pack. Indeed, the introduction of CF is not likely to be considered an economically favorable turn of affairs by the petroleum producing industries. Personally, I think Saudi Arabia would be overthown as the nation's economy suppored by dwindling oil revenues was being flushed down the toilet. In it's place a brand spankin new Theocracy - to rule the world for a thousand years, or at least until Allah returns to harshly judge everyone. Fun for all, I'm sure. I believe I read that 20% of oil production is used for chemical feedstock. At $65 a barrel, would CF make it plunge to $13 ? I think getting Islamic countries to turn inward would benefit the rest of us. Clearly Allah wants you to purify yourselves and cut off all contact with the developed Satanic world. We promise not to bother you anymore. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 18 14:31:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9ILUrHW002282; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 14:31:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9ILUohw002243; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 14:30:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 14:30:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: "Rick Highsurf" To: Subject: RE: Is Alkane-Aquanol the Oil-free answer? Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 11:30:15 -1000 Message-ID: <001c01c5d42b$2a34e900$d901a8c0 dtqf101> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 In-Reply-To: <48vi84$1d51unh mxip09a.cluster1.charter.net> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - server26.fastbighost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - highsurf.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63869 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Been scanning this thread for any mention of bacteria - did I miss it? I've read that bacteria account for the greatest percentage of the earth's total biomass by a very large margin. Some grow extremely fast under the right conditions, some consume non-organic food, and they can be bred/modified to perform specific production tasks. Some are even suspected of feeding on naturally occuring minerals deep in the earth and converting them to petroleum - but we've been down that road already. Anything on the horizon here? Maybe Nick Palmer can come up with some bugs for us that enjoy breaking down nuclear waste while pooping out convenient hydrocarbons. - R. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 18 14:55:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9ILt7Yj016232; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 14:55:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9ILt5Ft016217; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 14:55:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 14:55:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <006901c5d421$99334310$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <4enk62$anhg1r mxip28a.cluster1.charter.net> <001f01c5d40d$99e0ff50$6401a8c0@NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051018153537.0441c0d0@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Is Alkane-Aquanol the Oil-free answer? Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 13:22:01 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63870 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: >>http://www.greencarcongress.com/2004/06/brazil_ag_and_b.html >>Imagine what they can do when they switch from sugar (as the >>ethanol feedstock) to biomass. > Jones: I do not follow what you mean here. Sugar is biomass. > What crop are they considering to replace it? In the past, the cellulose or woody part of the cane was not fermented - only the sucrose extract was used, and the bulk of the biomass was burned for the energy of distillation. Applying the new US techniques, and the NREL engineered bacteria, etc. where the cellulose is also fermented - this will give about 400-800 % more ethanol per acre of cane - but not the "free" fuel needed for distillation. Actually this switch is already being implemented slowly there by the US companies and is responsible for some of the falling price. This lack of cellulose would not be a problem for a hydrated ethanol fuel - which since it can be burned undistilled - as with the so-called "Aquanol" mentioned previously - you just buy more of it at a much lower price. There are several techniques to enrich ethanol somewhat without heating. Another possible solution is to use solar distillation. Already - in 2005 - the cost in Brazil for ethanol (less taxes) is only $.50 gallon for the distilled fuel. It could be landed here for $.60 gallon were it not for the $.54 import tariff, which is the big problem for US consumers getting any kind of break. The price could be much less for a hydrated-fuel in the near-future. Thus my enthusiasm for the combined ideas of Aquanol and the plasma sparking system which can burn it without the need for previous distillation. This is the new technology coming out of Idaho - and Brazil is ripe for this to find a foothold. BTW processing of cane does not "necessarily" require much manual labor - as it is easily automated but at high capital cost. When I was living in Mexico, I was amazed that no builder, even the US builders, used back-hoes for foundation work or trenching. Even though the work could have been completed in a few days with a back-hoe - this was much costlier than having a 6-man crew dig for a few weeks manually. Changes in latitude - changes in attitude... Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 18 15:14:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9IMDnA0029165; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 15:14:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9IMDnlI029156; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 15:13:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 15:13:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051018180752.03f4c750 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 18:13:25 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Is Alkane-Aquanol the Oil-free answer? In-Reply-To: <006901c5d421$99334310$6401a8c0 NuDell> References: <4enk62$anhg1r mxip28a.cluster1.charter.net> <001f01c5d40d$99e0ff50$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051018153537.0441c0d0 pop.mindspring.com> <006901c5d421$99334310$6401a8c0 NuDell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63871 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >>Jones: I do not follow what you mean here. Sugar is biomass. What crop >>are they considering to replace it? > >In the past, the cellulose or woody part of the cane was not fermented - >only the sucrose extract was used, and the bulk of the biomass was burned >for the energy of distillation. I see. That's what I figured you meant -- just checking. A similar process is being applied to corn, and it may well tip the balance so that the overall production is positive even in Pimentel's analysis. See Schultz and Woolsey. >BTW processing of cane does not "necessarily" require much manual labor - >as it is easily automated but at high capital cost. That's true. They use manual labor to keep the energy costs down and because they have so much cheap labor available. >When I was living in Mexico, I was amazed that no builder, even the US >builders, used back-hoes for foundation work or trenching. Even though the >work could have been completed in a few days with a back-hoe - this was >much costlier than having a 6-man crew dig for a few weeks manually. You see the same sort of thing in Beijing today, and everywhere in India. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 18 15:55:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9IMsmSp018261; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 15:55:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9IMslaZ018251; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 15:54:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 15:54:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051018181541.03f4aeb0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 18:54:20 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: The price of oil with CF In-Reply-To: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50A3B6303 CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu .clearchannel.com> References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50A3B6303 CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63872 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Zell, Chris wrote: >I believe I read that 20% of oil production is used for chemical >feedstock. Yup. >At $65 a barrel, would CF make it plunge to $13 ? That's about right. My guess is that it would drop the price to around $9 or $10 dollars at first and later $1 or $2 dollars per barrel. This is based on the "lifting cost" plus refining cost. The "lifting cost" is the cost of pumping the glop out of the ground. This ranges from $3.57 in the US to $4.23 in Africa. Surprisingly, it is not much cheaper in the Middle East. See: http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/perfpro/tab13.html http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/perfpro/ch3sec2.html Refining costs $5.79 in the U.S.: http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/perfpro/tab16.html It comes to $9.36, plus ~$1 profit margin if the company was lucky, or more likely a loss of $3, because there would be a gigantic glut. Most companies would sell at a loss for a while and then go out of business, the way major airlines are doing today. This would be the cost even while everyone still uses oil in their automobiles. The future of oil would be "discounted" as soon as everyone realizes cold fusion is real and will be developed into a practical source of energy. This means the cost of gasoline in the US would fall to about $.75 including taxes. Later on, the price of oil would fall to around three dollars, as I said, because CF would be used to run the drills, oil tankers pipelines and so on. Most of the expense of drilling and refining oil is for oil itself; the oil overhead needed to run the machinery. By the time CF is used to power the pumps, oil would only be used for feedstock, so it would not contribute to global warming. This low price might delay the development of thermal depolymerization (TD) plants. TD would also fall in price thanks to CF energy, but TD plants are inherently expensive. On the other hand they also reduce pollution and waste, so people may develop them for that purpose. Low level production of oil for feedstock may continue for decades, possibly for hundreds of years. It will be far lower level than today's oil production; less than 20% of today's production level, because eventually TD will increase the recycling of old plastics and other hydrocarbon-based products. On the other hand, if it becomes necessary to synthesize and then sequester gigatons of oil to prevent global warming (as I discussed in chapter 9), then oil feedstock will be worth less than nothing. It will be industrial waste; they will pay you to take the stuff off their hands. >I think getting Islamic countries to turn inward would benefit the rest of >us. Clearly Allah wants you to purify yourselves and cut off all contact >with the developed Satanic world. We promise not to bother you anymore. Amen to that. However, after a few decades I think they will be much happier and wealthier without oil. CF will force them to join the modern world, and it will create plenty of new opportunities and new wealth for them to take advantage of. One hundred and fifty years from now they may see CF as the best thing that ever happened to their society. I figure it takes about that long. It has taken roughly that long for most white people in the former US Confederacy to reconcile themselves to losing the Civil War, and I suspect it will take about that long for all Japanese people to realize it was a good thing they did not win WWII. (Of course many of them felt that way right after the war, and still do). There will be a very dangerous social and economic transition from fossil fuel to CF. I can think of many ways the transition might be botched, impoverishing millions of people, and causing worldwide unrest -- possibly even terrorism. I have no confidence that the present leadership of either the Democratic or Republican parties has the gumption to make such a transition work well, since they cannot even bring themselves to foster the introduction of hybrid automobiles. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 18 18:36:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9J1aBdN013887; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 18:36:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9J1a9xL013862; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 18:36:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 18:36:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <8246f188-e8f1-4952-aab9-d96372769377> Message-ID: <002c01c5d44d$6a37a890$a57bccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <001c01c5d42b$2a34e900$d901a8c0 dtqf101> Subject: Re: Is Alkane-Aquanol the Oil-free answer? Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 21:35:07 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63873 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A small long term problem. In the normal agricultural cycle, the fruit or seed is harvested and the rest composted or allowed to decay in the field, recycling the mineral contnet. If the plants are totally harvested for fuel, this replenishment does not occur and eventually the soil will be exhausted unless a fertilization program is in place. And where is this fertilizer to come from? So is biomass truly "renewable" or is it another short term solution that will bite our descendants? Recommended reading: Jared Diamond's "Collapse" Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 18 19:14:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9J2EOUo032235; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 19:14:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9J2ENQ3032227; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 19:14:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 19:14:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Message-ID: <4355ABF1.5020004 iinet.net.au> Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 12:14:09 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The price of oil with CF References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50A3B6303 CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20051018181541.03f4aeb0@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20051018181541.03f4aeb0 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63874 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Excellent case below mate, you should publish it in Infinite Energy or somewhere. Have you considered the national oil stockpiles. Big underground tanks in the desert. The transition from oil fired industrial base to a fusion powered one may drive cash strapped governments into a fire sale of their strategic stockpiles. That could push the price well below cost for a while. Jed Rothwell wrote: > Zell, Chris wrote: > > >> I believe I read that 20% of oil production is used for chemical >> feedstock. > > > Yup. > > >> At $65 a barrel, would CF make it plunge to $13 ? > > > That's about right. > > My guess is that it would drop the price to around $9 or $10 dollars > at first and later $1 or $2 dollars per barrel. This is based on the > "lifting cost" plus refining cost. The "lifting cost" is the cost of > pumping the glop out of the ground. This ranges from $3.57 in the US > to $4.23 in Africa. Surprisingly, it is not much cheaper in the Middle > East. See: > > http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/perfpro/tab13.html > > http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/perfpro/ch3sec2.html > > Refining costs $5.79 in the U.S.: > > http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/perfpro/tab16.html > > It comes to $9.36, plus ~$1 profit margin if the company was lucky, or > more likely a loss of $3, because there would be a gigantic glut. Most > companies would sell at a loss for a while and then go out of > business, the way major airlines are doing today. > > This would be the cost even while everyone still uses oil in their > automobiles. The future of oil would be "discounted" as soon as > everyone realizes cold fusion is real and will be developed into a > practical source of energy. This means the cost of gasoline in the US > would fall to about $.75 including taxes. > > Later on, the price of oil would fall to around three dollars, as I > said, because CF would be used to run the drills, oil tankers > pipelines and so on. Most of the expense of drilling and refining oil > is for oil itself; the oil overhead needed to run the machinery. By > the time CF is used to power the pumps, oil would only be used for > feedstock, so it would not contribute to global warming. This low > price might delay the development of thermal depolymerization (TD) > plants. TD would also fall in price thanks to CF energy, but TD plants > are inherently expensive. On the other hand they also reduce pollution > and waste, so people may develop them for that purpose. > > Low level production of oil for feedstock may continue for decades, > possibly for hundreds of years. It will be far lower level than > today's oil production; less than 20% of today's production level, > because eventually TD will increase the recycling of old plastics and > other hydrocarbon-based products. > > On the other hand, if it becomes necessary to synthesize and then > sequester gigatons of oil to prevent global warming (as I discussed in > chapter 9), then oil feedstock will be worth less than nothing. It > will be industrial waste; they will pay you to take the stuff off > their hands. > > >> I think getting Islamic countries to turn inward would benefit the >> rest of us. Clearly Allah wants you to purify yourselves and cut off >> all contact with the developed Satanic world. We promise not to >> bother you anymore. > > > Amen to that. > > However, after a few decades I think they will be much happier and > wealthier without oil. CF will force them to join the modern world, > and it will create plenty of new opportunities and new wealth for them > to take advantage of. One hundred and fifty years from now they may > see CF as the best thing that ever happened to their society. I figure > it takes about that long. It has taken roughly that long for most > white people in the former US Confederacy to reconcile themselves to > losing the Civil War, and I suspect it will take about that long for > all Japanese people to realize it was a good thing they did not win > WWII. (Of course many of them felt that way right after the war, and > still do). > > There will be a very dangerous social and economic transition from > fossil fuel to CF. I can think of many ways the transition might be > botched, impoverishing millions of people, and causing worldwide > unrest -- possibly even terrorism. I have no confidence that the > present leadership of either the Democratic or Republican parties has > the gumption to make such a transition work well, since they cannot > even bring themselves to foster the introduction of hybrid automobiles. > > - Jed > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 18 19:35:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9J2ZQUE007550; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 19:35:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9J2ZPuj007528; Tue, 18 Oct 2005 19:35:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 19:35:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAA+k= Message-ID: <4355B0DC.1050002 iinet.net.au> Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 12:35:08 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Some more e-grass numbers References: <034001c5d384$692edd70$6401a8c0 NuDell> In-Reply-To: <034001c5d384$692edd70$6401a8c0 NuDell> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <_DI_1D.A.j1B.sDbVDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63875 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,16679599%255E30417,00.html > > > "Trials have shown that the plant flourishes on most arable land, > requires no fertilizer, suffers no pests or diseases, and produces > huge volumes of material that can be harvested using existing > technology...." > New trials of 'Miscanthus giganteus' .... produce more than 60 tons of > dry matter per hectare.... Dr John Clifton-Brown, of the Institute of > Grassland and Environmental Research... said that if Miscanthus was > grown on 10 per cent of suitable unused land, it could generate 9 per > cent of Europe's electricity. It will actually do better in Northern > Europe than Southern as it needs lots of water. > > In Europe, this would probably affect food-agriculture to some degree > (less grazing land), but that is less an issue in the USA - due to so > much under-utilized wet-land. > > The advantage of biomass crops is "supposedly" that they do not add to > carbon dioxide emissions. As they grow, they absorb carbon dioxide, > and when they are burned, they release it again, so they are said to > be "carbon-neutral". > > Not so sure about that... but it beats burning Arabian crude oil. > > Jones > It's water limited which means energy prices would develop drought/ rain cycles. Just what we don't need. This plant will make an excellent weed. Elephant grass is on my list of plants to take to mars. Chopped e-grass and glue make a good building material direct from Mars air, water and soil. You can also make plates and cups from the stuff. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 19 00:54:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9J7sLv7013798; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 00:54:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9J7sJsl013779; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 00:54:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 00:54:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <006001c5d482$40cef870$0501a8c0 nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: References: <001c01c5d42b$2a34e900$d901a8c0 dtqf101> Subject: Re: Is Alkane-Aquanol the Oil-free answer? Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 08:47:06 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63876 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: rick highsurf.com Nene goose?! Long time no hear - still hang gliding? I just bought a Moyes Litespeed last year. <> A man can dream... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 19 07:09:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9JE8dVh023071; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 07:08:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9JE8bNC023052; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 07:08:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 07:08:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=Pi0QkC5vnCAo2ei99+lg4J6Y4sunTqX3KJ8T4+Zu+SIVrMJj8Mlg6H17VHsr+4Lxnq9R5P1tb9aMxaXOXV8w9VLbpl8lJ3+BBFKSi5WjH6WLILGvS/0J8K0ecHnkqM562tjmzBKaJSFXbtsWpeS22LtPOF9gR+B2S+fAhtAIlZQ= ; Message-ID: <20051019140816.74005.qmail web34909.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 07:08:16 -0700 (PDT) From: hank goering Subject: The Cheapest Way To Fix The Energy Crisis (and lots of other crises) To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <6PMLCD.A.HoF.kNlVDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63877 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: cold fusion, hot fusion, oil shale, nuclear, biomass, etc., etc. If 1/100th of the money and time spent on these schemes was used to develop a sterility drug, and if the drug were deposited around the world, maybe by a platoon of satellites in polar orbit, it would give humanity a bright, uncrowded future. Let's say we wanted the world's population to decline to 1 billion. Concoct the drug to sterilize 90 of 100 women, or 98 of 100, or whatever it took, and watch the population decline. We could hope that when normal fecundity returned, people would have learned enough from past mistakes not to allow the population to explode again. __________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page! http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 19 07:13:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9JECvi1025631; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 07:13:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9JECu5w025588; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 07:12:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 07:12:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Sender: jack mail3.centurytel.net Message-ID: <4356527E.3044556E centurytel.net> Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 14:04:46 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Is Alkane-Aquanol the Oil-free answer? References: <017501c5d355$abc14c60$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051017161255.04f51eb0@pop.mindspring.com> <000b01c5d368$5fe882a0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051017182210.04e01670@pop.mindspring.com> <003801c5d372$2e476310$6401a8c0@NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051017193231.04dfb8d0@pop.mindspring.com> <031501c5d37b$619f11a0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051018094829.04645dc0@pop.mindspring.com> <005001c5d3fd$45166790$6401a8c0@NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051018122508.0441be20@pop.mindspring.com> <001401c5d40c$6b7cbc40$6401a8c0@NuDell> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="xj" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="xj" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63878 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: We are on the verge on a landslide shift in the way we produce and utilize energy for transportation, and it looks like "sustainable hydrated liquid fuels" will be a huge part of this national reawakening to our hidden strength - which has always been based on productive farming ... Jed wrote: Biomass is not a real solution in my opinion. Plug in hybrids certainly are. We spend hundreds of millions of dollars a year on ethanol. If we would stop doing that and invest that money in plug in hybrids instead, we would make very significant progress reducing oil imports. Hi All, I think, for the widest national security reasons, that we integrate ALL non-oil sources into a practical delivery system. My preference is to make methanol the common fuel product, since methanol can be made from biomass as well as "fossil fuels". Methanol can be distributed and used for transportation with little change in our current gasoline delivery and use system. Methanol production can be powered with cold fusion. The "line loss" of transporting methanol is probably less than for electricity. As far as the danger of continued use of fossil fuel is concerned, we may have passed the point of no return with a deviation amplifying process of methane release underway. The best approach to defending ourselves against the effects of disrupting the Gulf Stream and/or an Arctic "lake effect" blizzard over the northern hemisphere may be to release as much greenhouse gas as possible. We should not underestimate the long term importamnce of "fossil fuels". I'm enclosing below an article on the continued availability of fossil fuels. Jack Smith ARTICLE from Harvard Magazine, March-April, 2005, By Erin O'Donnell href=http://www.harvardmagazine.com/on-line/030573.html Hydrocarbon Heresy: Rocks into Gas [The cell employs two diamonds, each about three millimeters (roughly one-eighth-inch) high, which sit with their tips facing each other in hardened precision frames that are forced together, creating intense pressure in the small space between the tips. They compress a small metal plate that holds the sample. The device can generate pressures greater than those in the center of the earth (3.6 million atmospheres) The methane generation experiments use pressures in the 50-100,000 atmosphere range, corresponding to the earth's upper mantle.] ``Geologists have long believed that the world's supply of oil and natural gas came from the decay of primordial plant and animal matter, which, over the course of millions of years, turned into petroleum. But new research coauthored by Dudley Herschbach, Baird research professor of science and recipient of the 1986 Nobel Prize in chemistry, questions that thinking. Published last fall in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, the study describes how investigators combined three abiotic (non-living) materials -- water (H2O), limestone (CaCO3), and iron oxide (FeO) -- and crushed the mixture together with the same intense pressure found deep below the earth's surface. This process created methane (CH4) , the major component of natural gas. Herschbach says this offers evidence, although as yet far from proof, for a maverick theory that much of the world's supply of so-called fossil fuels may not derive from the decay of dinosaur-era organisms after all. Herschbach became interested in the origins of petroleum hydrocarbons while reading `A Well-Ordered Thing,' a book about the nineteenth-century Russian chemist Dmitri Mendeleev, who developed the periodic table. Written by Michael Gordin '96, Ph.D. '01, a current Junior Fellow, the book mentions a theory long held by Russian and Ukrainian geologists: that petroleum comes from reactions of water with other abiotic materials, and then bubbles up toward the earth's surface. Intrigued, Herschbach read further, including `The Deep, Hot Bio-sphere' by the late Cornell astrophysicist Thomas Gold. An iconoclast, Gold saw merit in the Russian and Ukrainian view that petroleum has nonliving origins. He theorized that organic materials found in oil -- which most scientists took as a sign that petroleum comes from living things -- may simply be waste matter from microbial organisms that feed on the hydrocarbons generated deep in the earth as these flow upward ... The diamond anvil cell, developed at the Carnegie Institution, can create the same pressures found as far as 4,000 miles beneath the earth's surface ... Diamonds are an ideal material for such experiments, Herschbach explains. As one of the hardest substances on earth, they can withstand the tremendous force, and because they're transparent, scientists can use beams of light and X-rays to identify what's inside the cell without pulling the diamonds apart ... "The experiment showed it's easy to make methane," Herschbach says. The new findings may serve to corroborate other evidence, cited by Gold, that some of the earth's reservoirs of oil appear to refill as they're pumped out, suggesting that petroleum may be continually generated. This could have broad implications for petroleum production and consumption, and for our planet's ecology and economy ...'' Harvard Magazine, March-April 2005: Volume 107, Number 4, Page 10 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 19 07:30:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9JEUOLL005775; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 07:30:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9JEULvc005737; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 07:30:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 07:30:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051019102938.0461deb0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 10:29:56 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Cold fusion with Ti Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63879 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: See: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/Bernardinianomalouse.pdf From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 19 07:44:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9JEhqdP011893; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 07:44:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9JEhpUZ011871; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 07:43:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 07:43:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051019103630.04514a90 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 10:43:19 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: The price of oil with CF In-Reply-To: <4355ABF1.5020004 iinet.net.au> References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50A3B6303 CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20051018181541.03f4aeb0 pop.mindspring.com> <4355ABF1.5020004 iinet.net.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63880 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Wesley Bruce wrote: >Excellent case below mate, you should publish it in Infinite Energy or >somewhere. Have you considered the national oil stockpiles. In the scenario I described, we would use CF to synthesize hydrocarbons to combat global warming. See chapter 9 of my book. In this scenario we would have no use for an oil stockpile, since we would not use oil for fuel. We would need a far smaller amount for feedstock, which could easily be supplied from our remaining oil stocks, or by recycling. Even a country like Japan will probably have enough oil wells to meet its own needs. Japan produces 17,330 barrels per day. See: http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2173rank.html) - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 19 07:45:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9JEictv012348; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 07:44:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9JEibrF012326; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 07:44:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 07:44:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <4enk62$ar3aj9 mxip28a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.97,231,1125892800"; d="scan'208"; a="363965033:sNHT86865374" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: OrionWorks Organization: OrionWorks To: CC: Subject: Re: The Cheapest Way To Fix The Energy Crisis (and lots of other crises) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 9:44:15 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <-AX8zC.A.iAD.VvlVDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63881 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: hank goering > cold fusion, hot fusion, oil shale, nuclear, biomass, > etc., etc. > > If 1/100th of the money and time spent on these > schemes was used to develop a sterility drug, and if > the drug were deposited around the world, maybe by a > platoon of satellites in polar orbit, it would give > humanity a bright, uncrowded future. > > Let's say we wanted the world's population to decline > to 1 billion. Concoct the drug to sterilize 90 of 100 > women, or 98 of 100, or whatever it took, and watch > the population decline. > > We could hope that when normal fecundity returned, > people would have learned enough from past mistakes > not to allow the population to explode again. Could you also add the ability to cancel all my credit card debt as well? With consumer goods freed up I'd really like a fresh start in my purchasing prowess. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 19 07:56:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9JEtx8J020197; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 07:56:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9JEtvjD020177; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 07:55:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 07:55:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43565E63.5050707 pobox.com> Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 10:55:31 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.10) Gecko/20050719 Fedora/1.7.10-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Is Alkane-Aquanol the Oil-free answer? References: <017501c5d355$abc14c60$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051017161255.04f51eb0@pop.mindspring.com> <000b01c5d368$5fe882a0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051017182210.04e01670@pop.mindspring.com> <003801c5d372$2e476310$6401a8c0@NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051017193231.04dfb8d0@pop.mindspring.com> <031501c5d37b$619f11a0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051018094829.04645dc0@pop.mindspring.com> <005001c5d3fd$45166790$6401a8c0@NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051018122508.0441be20@pop.mindspring.com> <001401c5d40c$6b7cbc40$6401a8c0@NuDell> <4356527E.3044556E@centurytel.net> In-Reply-To: <4356527E.3044556E centurytel.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <0V09CC.A.J7E.85lVDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63882 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Taylor J. Smith wrote: >Jones Beene wrote: > >We are on the verge on a landslide shift in the way we >produce and utilize energy for transportation, and it looks >like "sustainable hydrated liquid fuels" will be a huge >part of this national reawakening to our hidden strength - >which has always been based on productive farming ... > >Jed wrote: > >Biomass is not a real solution in my opinion. Plug in >hybrids certainly are. We spend hundreds of millions of >dollars a year on ethanol. If we would stop doing that >and invest that money in plug in hybrids instead, we would >make very significant progress reducing oil imports. > >Hi All, > >I think, for the widest national security reasons, that >we integrate ALL non-oil sources into a practical delivery >system. My preference is to make methanol the common fuel >product, since methanol can be made from biomass as well as >"fossil fuels". > Methanol is also hideously toxic. In pure form even the fumes are dangerous. It would be an awful choice for automotive fuel. Gasoline is far less toxic and ethanol, of course, is just about completely nontoxic. > Methanol can be distributed and used for >transportation with little change in our current gasoline >delivery and use system. Methanol production can be >powered with cold fusion. The "line loss" of transporting >methanol is probably less than for electricity. > >As far as the danger of continued use of fossil fuel is >concerned, we may have passed the point of no return with a >deviation amplifying process of methane release underway. >The best approach to defending ourselves against the >effects of disrupting the Gulf Stream and/or an Arctic >"lake effect" blizzard over the northern hemisphere may >be to release as much greenhouse gas as possible. > >We should not underestimate the long term importamnce of >"fossil fuels". I'm enclosing below an article on the >continued availability of fossil fuels. > >Jack Smith > >ARTICLE from Harvard Magazine, March-April, 2005, By >Erin O'Donnell > >href=http://www.harvardmagazine.com/on-line/030573.html > >Hydrocarbon Heresy: Rocks into Gas > >[The cell employs two diamonds, each about three >millimeters (roughly one-eighth-inch) high, which sit >with their tips facing each other in hardened precision >frames that are forced together, creating intense pressure >in the small space between the tips. They compress a >small metal plate that holds the sample. The device can >generate pressures greater than those in the center of the >earth (3.6 million atmospheres) The methane generation >experiments use pressures in the 50-100,000 atmosphere >range, corresponding to the earth's upper mantle.] > >``Geologists have long believed that the world's supply >of oil and natural gas came from the decay of primordial >plant and animal matter, which, over the course of millions >of years, turned into petroleum. > >But new research coauthored by Dudley Herschbach, >Baird research professor of science and recipient >of the 1986 Nobel Prize in chemistry, questions that >thinking. Published last fall in the Proceedings of the >National Academy of Sciences, the study describes how >investigators combined three abiotic (non-living) materials >-- water (H2O), limestone (CaCO3), and iron oxide (FeO) >-- and crushed the mixture together with the same intense >pressure found deep below the earth's surface. This process >created methane (CH4) , the major component of natural >gas. Herschbach says this offers evidence, although as yet >far from proof, for a maverick theory that much of the >world's supply of so-called fossil fuels may not derive >from the decay of dinosaur-era organisms after all. > >Herschbach became interested in the origins of petroleum >hydrocarbons while reading `A Well-Ordered Thing,' a >book about the nineteenth-century Russian chemist Dmitri >Mendeleev, who developed the periodic table. Written by >Michael Gordin '96, Ph.D. '01, a current Junior Fellow, the >book mentions a theory long held by Russian and Ukrainian >geologists: that petroleum comes from reactions of water >with other abiotic materials, and then bubbles up toward >the earth's surface. > >Intrigued, Herschbach read further, including `The Deep, >Hot Bio-sphere' by the late Cornell astrophysicist Thomas >Gold. An iconoclast, Gold saw merit in the Russian and >Ukrainian view that petroleum has nonliving origins. He >theorized that organic materials found in oil -- which >most scientists took as a sign that petroleum comes from >living things -- may simply be waste matter from microbial >organisms that feed on the hydrocarbons generated deep in >the earth as these flow upward ... > >The diamond anvil cell, developed at the Carnegie >Institution, can create the same pressures found as far >as 4,000 miles beneath the earth's surface ... Diamonds >are an ideal material for such experiments, Herschbach >explains. As one of the hardest substances on earth, they >can withstand the tremendous force, and because they're >transparent, scientists can use beams of light and X-rays >to identify what's inside the cell without pulling the >diamonds apart ... > >"The experiment showed it's easy to make methane," >Herschbach says. The new findings may serve to corroborate >other evidence, cited by Gold, that some of the earth's >reservoirs of oil appear to refill as they're pumped out, >suggesting that petroleum may be continually generated. >This could have broad implications for petroleum production >and consumption, and for our planet's ecology and economy >...'' > >Harvard Magazine, March-April 2005: Volume 107, Number 4, >Page 10 > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 19 08:22:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9JFLI5v001242; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 08:21:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9JFLGYg001218; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 08:21:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 08:21:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] X-Originating-Email: [caliostro1795 hotmail.com] X-Sender: caliostro1795 hotmail.com From: "Alex Caliostro" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: The Cheapest Way To Fix The Energy Crisis (and lots of other crises) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 09:20:57 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Oct 2005 15:20:57.0486 (UTC) FILETIME=[B45EFAE0:01C5D4C0] Resent-Message-ID: <9uXPaD.A.-S.qRmVDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63883 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: herr goering wrote "If 1/100th of the money and time spent on these schemes was used to develop a sterility drug, and if the drug were deposited around the world, maybe by a platoon of satellites in polar orbit, it would give humanity a bright, uncrowded future." r u bavarian? adam weishaupt could not have said it better innit odd that the 1918 pandemic flu genome has been sdquenced simultaneous with the "arrival" of H5N1 _____ -alex _________________________________________________________________ Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 19 08:27:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9JFR7m9005070; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 08:27:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9JFR5KW005050; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 08:27:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 08:27:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=AMXPpXiayNDpwjchxR0yxeJWCV8xZQwOs76Veo94sPgBkMbB6h1KhmsaMb/POo0H9nHc6s2ypofDaD9OqvLrbGAS92k0JN0/sGEP9OeN3CVAymURZfp0RWVZI4IX6pdCyyiYWuOopCCFnKBGn+RJ3CYbMEG1ZRz+SYBvYDqZsvw= ; Message-ID: <20051019152112.75204.qmail web34913.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 08:21:12 -0700 (PDT) From: hank goering Subject: Re: The Cheapest Way To Fix The Energy Crisis (and lots of other crises) To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <4enk62$ar3aj9 mxip28a.cluster1.charter.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63884 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- OrionWorks wrote: > > Could you also add the ability to cancel all my > credit card debt as well? > > With consumer goods freed up I'd really like a fresh > start in my purchasing prowess. > I'll tell you one thing, no matter how nice a home you live in now, in a few years you could move into a palace. People alive now would live off the fat of the land as the population nosedived. If you think the anti-sterility option is unrealistic, then waiting in the wings is the not-so-humane option of engineered diseases, and those are probably already in existence, and just need some crazy leader to use them. Maybe Sharon will try one on Iran. Either way, sterility or disease, it's a hell of a lot cheaper than chasing after ways to squeeze more and more btus out of our resources to feed more and more people. More humane, too, in the long run. __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 19 08:30:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9JFUEfv006825; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 08:30:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9JFUDw4006804; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 08:30:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 08:30:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 10:29:51 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Say it ain't so Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63885 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: My friend was going on about the Bali bomb having been a nuke. Nonsense, I replied, if it was, there would be radioactivity. My friend countered that this was a clean atom bomb. My reply was, this doesn't exist. Send me the URL, which he did, see http://joevialls.net/nuke/bali_micro_nuke.htm . The first red flag was Zionist plot, like the Israelis have nothing better to do than blow up night clubs in the pacific. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 19 08:33:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9JFWbg4008423; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 08:32:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9JFWZrl008400; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 08:32:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 08:32:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] X-Originating-Email: [caliostro1795 hotmail.com] X-Sender: caliostro1795 hotmail.com From: "Alex Caliostro" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: PM's Five Solutions Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 09:32:13 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Oct 2005 15:32:14.0233 (UTC) FILETIME=[47BE6090:01C5D4C2] Resent-Message-ID: <44qpZD.A.MDC.TcmVDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63886 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/earth/1766936.html?page=1&c=y one and two are wind power and plug-in hybrids they must be listening _____ -alex _________________________________________________________________ Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 19 08:34:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9JFXkWU009022; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 08:34:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9JFXjBn009002; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 08:33:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 08:33:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 10:33:16 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: RE: The Cheapest Way To Fix The Energy Crisis (and lots of other crises) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63887 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >herr goering wrote > >"If 1/100th of the money and time spent on these >schemes was used to develop a sterility drug, and if The way to do it is develop an estrogen mimicing chemical disguised as a plastic softening agent and mix it in with plastic used to bottle food and beverage. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 19 08:54:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9JFrcf5018814; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 08:53:53 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9JFrZnm018775; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 08:53:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 08:53:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051019114429.04439eb0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 11:53:02 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: LPG powered vehicles Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63888 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen Lawrence says that methanol is not a good choice because it is toxic. In Japan, 94% of taxies are powered by liquefied petroleum gas (LPG), which is "primarily propane (or a propane/butane mixture)." This liquid is at room temperature. It does not require cryogenic storage the way LNG or LH does. See: http://www.adb.org/vehicle-emissions/General/inuse-conversions-2.asp We could not produce enough LPG to power all automobiles today, but perhaps it would be a good choice for synthetic fuel from fission, wind or even CF. I do not know how it could be synthesized. Perhaps Fred Sparber could tell us about that. By the way, I do not think we will need any synthetic chemical fuel with CF. I expect vehicles will be powered by it directly. However, if the cathode material is expensive it may have to be used in central generators rather than individual machines. (See chapter 2.) In that case it might also be used to synthesize fuel directly with a thermal process. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 19 09:03:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9JG3SXQ027576; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 09:03:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9JG3P3n027535; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 09:03:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 09:03:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l eskimo.com, thomas malloy Subject: Re: The Cheapest Way To Fix The Energy Crisis (and lots of other crises) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 12:10:24 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200510191210.24117.rockcast earthlink.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63889 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wednesday 19 October 2005 11:33, thomas malloy wrote: > >herr goering wrote > > > >"If 1/100th of the money and time spent on these > >schemes was used to develop a sterility drug, and if > > The way to do it is develop an estrogen mimicing chemical disguised > as a plastic softening agent and mix it in with plastic used to > bottle food and beverage. Great, then the only people left in the world will be aborigines! Not that they did not like soft drinks, but they could not afford them even if they were conveniently available and also preferable to the alcoholic home brews they were used to. Stone axes anyone.......spears..................bug juice for dinner...!!?? Standing Bear From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 19 09:06:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9JG5a8L029193; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 09:05:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9JG5XX1029155; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 09:05:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 09:05:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003a01c5d4c3$faf83950$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <017501c5d355$abc14c60$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051017161255.04f51eb0@pop.mindspring.com> <000b01c5d368$5fe882a0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051017182210.04e01670@pop.mindspring.com> <003801c5d372$2e476310$6401a8c0@NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051017193231.04dfb8d0@pop.mindspring.com> <031501c5d37b$619f11a0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051018094829.04645dc0@pop.mindspring.com> <005001c5d3fd$45166790$6401a8c0@NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051018122508.0441be20@pop.mindspring.com> <001401c5d40c$6b7cbc40$6401a8c0@NuDell> <4356527E.3044556E@centurytel.net> Subject: Re: Is Alkane-Aquanol the Oil-free answer? Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 08:44:23 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0037_01C5D489.4E1D7A90" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63890 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0037_01C5D489.4E1D7A90 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jack, =20 > I think, for the widest national security reasons, that > we integrate ALL non-oil sources into a practical delivery > system. My preference is to make methanol the common fuel > product, since methanol can be made from biomass as well as > "fossil fuels".=20 This observation raises two issues - semantic and solubility. Not to = mention being a good segue for a futher anti-petroleum rant. Many use the term "ethanol" very broadly to include methanol and all = water soluble fermentables (short straight-chain simple hydrophilic = alcohols). Methanol, ethanol and water are infinitely soluble in each = other and there is no advantage (and many disadvantages) to trying to = isolate or use a pure or undiluted product - for the purposes of = combustion. The chemical industry needs purity - NOT the transportation = industry.=20 As long as you can get the alcohol-H2 mixture to completely ignite, then = the general maxim for best efficiency is the "more water the better" = since steam has triple the compressibility of CO2 and is more efficient = at translating *heat into work.* This is why burning ethanol - in actual tests in ICEs - is not very much = less-efficient than burning gasoline - even though the energy content of = ethanol is far less "on paper."=20 Here is where it gets tricky for finding actual figures, as the = petroleum industry and their cadre of paid (consultant contract) cronies = in almost every major university, have carefully seeded almost all the = textbooks, up to the PhD level, with disinformation on actual cross = performance comparisons. Yet my associate actually witnessed one real = test recently where straight ethanol OUTPERFORMS gasoline (in delivered = toque_ to the wheels of a standard V-6 (adjusted for the higher = volatility) despite having 30% less energy content ! The petro-crony = consultant who was present at this demonstartion totally refused to = believe this could be happening - and is still looking for hidden wires. The petrochemical industry DOES NOT want you know this ... and indeed, = to be honest, most tests do show a somewhat lesser-power delivered - but = *always* the power delivered from oxide-fuels is greater than the = difference in heat-content would indicate. This is extremely important = to keep in mind.=20 But ethanol/methanol can be more corrosive, and some percentage of = petroleum helps in this regard. Up to 24% ethanol can be added straight = to gasoline before any engine modifications are necessary; but once you = have anodized everything (cheap to do) then a blend known as E85, which = is 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline, can be used to power "flexible fuel = vehicles" or (FFVs). Many cars on the market today (especially oversea) = are already built to run on E85 and designated as FFV. There is little = added cost for this but the "plasma plugs" necessary for buring aquanol = are more costly than normal spark plugs. Brazil has had much success converting nearly all of its vehicles to run = on E85 made from sugar. They have even benefit more becasue they coerced = the foreign manufacturers to set up special assembly plants for this. It = has even announced to the world that Brazil would STOP importing oil by = the end of 2006, but they can do this only because they have almost as = much of their own oil as does Venezuela. The USA is almost in the = identical situation of having some oil and lots of underused land. = However, we are a petrocracy and Brazil is not. Even the new "Aquanol" fuel which is now 50% water and 50% ethanol (100 = proof) and might conceivably go down as far as 50 proof - it will do = better with 5% oil-based lubricant added. But the 100 proof variety with = alkane additive is the interesting new synergy. Back to semantics. Since some of the newer biomass technology will break = down cellulose into more complex liquid hydrocarbons, some of which are = NOT water soluble (gasoline is also not water soluble), then the term = "alkanes" was used to refer to these - as this was the term used in the = original study, from the June 3rd issue of "Science, Chemical and = Biological Engineering" where there is describe a four-phase catalytic = reactor in which biomass-derived carbohydrates are converted to liquid = alkanes, resulting in an ideal additive for diesel transportation fuel. = They stopped far short of the best usage. This process is doubly-exciting for use with ethanol, because it can be = used to break down the "un-fermentable" hydrocarbons following ethanol = production - plus some of the alkanes are good lubricants. These are a = m=E9lange of chemicals under the broad name of alkane - non-aromatic = saturated hydrocarbons with the general formula CnH(2n+2) of which = paraffins are examples, but it is too broad to be very accurate. Some of = the chemicals produced are saturated phenols and alkenes, which are = unsaturated, open chain hydrocarbons with one or more carbon-carbon = double bonds, having the general formula CnH(2n). All of these can have = some lubricating capability and would eliminate all petroleum from a = good fuel mixture - so there is a double synergy between "alkane" and = "aquanol". Any way, a broad but controlled mixture of these is preferable to = straight ethanol -but a hydrated mix is the most efficient and least = costly of all. Using the US dollar and totally free-market economics, we = should now in 2005 (in a perfect world) be paying about 40 cents a = gallon at the pump for 50 proof alkane-aquanol, imported from Brazil = with no incentives. Taxes and markup must be added at the pump - but the = final cost should be less than a dollar gallon! For comparison, you would need to purchase almost twice as much to go = the same distance, but the taxes paid should reflect the water content. = All and all - in a perfect free market - we should be paying two thirds = of the present price (of gasoline at $3) for the same mileage in = comparable autos - and sending some of that money to Brazil and South = America, and some to (subsidized) American farmers - and zero to Arabia, = Iraq and Iran. The addition of plasma plugs and anodized parts (FFV) to = an auto is less than $200 in capital costs in mass production. There - you have my summation of the pitiable state of the status quo - = at the pump... Ha! This is (supposedly) a free-market economy - but instead it is a = thinly disguised petrocracy where the consumer is now financing hundreds = of billions of dollars in "obscene" profits to a handful of companies, = who have taken over the American political system, and acutally foment a = war-for-oil, all under the guise of being a "moral majority."=20 END of rant.. Jones ------=_NextPart_000_0037_01C5D489.4E1D7A90 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jack,
 
> I think, for = the widest=20 national security reasons, that
> we integrate ALL non-oil sources = into a=20 practical delivery
> system.  My preference is to make = methanol the=20 common fuel
> product, since methanol can be made from biomass as = well=20 as
> "fossil fuels".


This observation raises two = issues -=20 semantic and solubility. Not to mention being a good segue for a futher=20 anti-petroleum rant.

Many use the term "ethanol" very broadly to = include=20 methanol and all water soluble fermentables (short straight-chain simple = hydrophilic alcohols). Methanol, ethanol and water are infinitely = soluble in=20 each other and there is no advantage (and many disadvantages) to trying = to=20 isolate or use a pure or undiluted product - for the purposes of = combustion. The=20 chemical industry needs purity - NOT the transportation industry. =
 
As long as you can get the = alcohol-H2 mixture=20 to completely ignite, then the general maxim for best efficiency is = the=20 "more water the better" since steam has triple the compressibility of = CO2 and is=20 more efficient at translating *heat into work.*

This is why = burning=20 ethanol - in actual tests in ICEs - is not very much less-efficient than = burning=20 gasoline - even though the energy content of ethanol is far less "on = paper."=20

Here is where it gets tricky for finding actual figures, as the=20 petroleum industry and their cadre of paid (consultant contract) cronies = in=20 almost every major university, have carefully seeded almost all the = textbooks,=20 up to the PhD level, with disinformation on actual cross performance=20 comparisons. Yet my associate actually witnessed one real test recently = where=20 straight ethanol OUTPERFORMS gasoline (in delivered toque_ to the wheels = of a=20 standard V-6 (adjusted for the higher volatility) despite having 30% = less energy=20 content ! The petro-crony consultant who was present at this=20 demonstartion totally refused to believe this could be = happening - and=20 is still looking for hidden wires.
 
The petrochemical industry DOES NOT = want you know=20 this ... and indeed, to be honest, most tests do show a somewhat=20 lesser-power delivered - but *always* the power delivered = from oxide-fuels=20 is greater than the difference in heat-content would indicate. This = is=20 extremely important to keep in mind.
 
But ethanol/methanol can be more = corrosive, and=20 some percentage of petroleum helps in this regard. Up to 24% ethanol can be added straight to gasoline before any = engine=20 modifications are necessary; but once you have anodized everything = (cheap to=20 do) then a blend known as E85, which is 85% ethanol and 15% = gasoline,=20 can be used to power "flexible fuel vehicles" or (FFVs). Many cars = on the=20 market today (especially oversea) are already built to run on E85 and = designated=20 as FFV. There is little added cost for this but the "plasma plugs" = necessary for=20 buring aquanol are more costly than normal spark plugs.
 
Brazil has had much success converting = nearly all=20 of its vehicles to run on E85 made from sugar. They have even benefit = more=20 becasue they coerced the foreign manufacturers to set up special = assembly plants=20 for this. It has even announced to the world that Brazil would STOP = importing oil by the end of 2006, but they can do this only because=20 they have almost as much of their own oil as does = Venezuela. The=20 USA is almost in the identical situation of having some oil and lots of=20 underused land. However, we are a petrocracy and Brazil is = not.
 
Even the new "Aquanol" fuel which is = now 50% water=20 and 50% ethanol (100 proof) and might conceivably go down as far as = 50=20 proof - it will do better with 5% oil-based lubricant added. But = the 100=20 proof variety with alkane additive is the interesting new=20 synergy.

Back to semantics. Since some of the newer biomass technology = will=20 break down cellulose into more complex liquid hydrocarbons, some of = which are=20 NOT water soluble (gasoline is also not water soluble), then the term = "alkanes"=20 was used to refer to these - as this was the term used in the = original=20 study, from the June 3rd issue of  "Science, Chemical and = Biological=20 Engineering" where there is describe a four-phase catalytic reactor = in=20 which  biomass-derived carbohydrates are converted to liquid=20 alkanes, resulting in an ideal additive for diesel transportation = fuel.=20 They stopped far short of the best usage.
 
This process is doubly-exciting for use with ethanol, because it = can be=20 used to break down the "un-fermentable" hydrocarbons following ethanol=20 production - plus some of the alkanes are good lubricants. These are a = m=E9lange=20 of chemicals under the broad name of alkane -  non-aromatic = saturated=20 hydrocarbons with the general formula CnH(2n+2) of which paraffins are = examples,=20 but it is too broad to be very accurate. Some of the chemicals produced=20 are saturated phenols and alkenes, which are unsaturated, open = chain=20 hydrocarbons with one or more carbon-carbon double bonds, having the = general=20 formula CnH(2n). All of these can have some lubricating capability and = would=20 eliminate all petroleum from a good fuel mixture - so there is a double = synergy=20 between "alkane" and "aquanol".
 
Any way, a broad but controlled mixture of these is preferable = to=20 straight ethanol -but a hydrated mix is the most efficient and = least costly=20 of all. Using the US dollar and totally free-market economics, we should = now in=20 2005 (in a perfect world) be paying about 40 cents a gallon at the = pump for=20 50 proof alkane-aquanol, imported from Brazil with no incentives. Taxes = and=20 markup must be added at the pump - but the final cost should be less = than a=20 dollar gallon!
 
For comparison, you would need to purchase almost twice as much to = go the=20 same distance, but the taxes paid should reflect the = water=20 content. All and all - in a perfect free market - we should be = paying two=20 thirds of the present price (of gasoline at $3) for the same = mileage in=20 comparable autos - and sending some of that money to Brazil and South = America,=20 and some to (subsidized) American farmers - and zero to Arabia, = Iraq and=20 Iran. The addition of plasma plugs and anodized parts (FFV) to an auto = is less=20 than $200 in capital costs in mass production.
 
There - you have my summation of the pitiable state of the status = quo - at=20 the pump...
 
Ha! This is (supposedly) a free-market economy - but instead it is = a thinly=20 disguised petrocracy where the consumer is now financing hundreds of = billions of=20 dollars in "obscene" profits to a handful of companies, who have taken = over the=20 American political system, and acutally foment a war-for-oil, all = under the=20 guise of being a "moral majority."
 
END of rant..
 
Jones
------=_NextPart_000_0037_01C5D489.4E1D7A90-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 19 09:22:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9JGL9EX004821; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 09:21:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9JGL7dB004795; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 09:21:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 09:21:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <4enh83$1hkmubm mxip15a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.97,231,1125892800"; d="scan'208"; a="1665890678:sNHT41203214" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: OrionWorks Organization: OrionWorks To: CC: Subject: Re: The Cheapest Way To Fix The Energy Crisis (and lots of other crises) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 11:20:43 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63891 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > goering sez: > > OrionWorks sez: > > > > Could you also add the ability to cancel all my > > credit card debt as well? > > > > With consumer goods freed up I'd really like a fresh > > start in my purchasing prowess. > > > > I'll tell you one thing, no matter how nice a home you > live in now, in a few years you could move into a > palace. People alive now would live off the fat of the > land as the population nosedived. > > If you think the anti-sterility option is unrealistic, > then waiting in the wings is the not-so-humane option > of engineered diseases, and those are probably already > in existence, and just need some crazy leader to use > them. Maybe Sharon will try one on Iran. > > Either way, sterility or disease, it's a hell of a lot > cheaper than chasing after ways to squeeze more and > more btus out of our resources to feed more and more > people. More humane, too, in the long run. > It's certainly "humane" in terms of my best interests. I especially like the part where I get all the stuff. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorkscom From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 19 09:24:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9JGNJZK006025; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 09:23:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9JGMsl3005657; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 09:22:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 09:22:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Originating-IP: [4.88.35.129] Mime-Version: 1.0 From: "gesrebspar juno.com" Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 16:20:24 GMT To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The price of oil with CF X-Mailer: Webmail Version 3.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <20051019.092115.709.202756 webmail13.nyc.untd.com> X-ContentStamp: 5:2:2211058071 X-UNTD-OriginStamp: GUNT6dKCgH8aoKLPKyRSHkQeFMDf/wCnzGkIJCKdQCkpJIME/8EnmA== X-UNTD-Peer-Info: 10.141.27.153|webmail13.nyc.untd.com|webmail13.nyc.untd.com|gesrebspar juno.com Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63892 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vortwxians- If CF would come out tomorrow we would still need our reservoirs for twenty years. The new system would require a gradual replacement of all powered systems that run on oil and gas. This could not happen over nite- we no longer have the industrial base to do it. The fall of thes saudie regime would not be a plus. The Ben Laddin group envisions running the whole world. The biggest sacrafice for a countries would be the women who would be reduced to survatiude. WE will be moved back to a world like 1000 years before christ if they get there way. Heaven help us. Its to bad we can't send his crew to meet Allah. _ges- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 19 09:45:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9JGjLb3020576; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 09:45:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9JGjJQ1020552; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 09:45:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 09:45:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051019123547.04508530 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 12:44:42 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: The price of oil with CF In-Reply-To: <20051019.092115.709.202756 webmail13.nyc.untd.com> References: <20051019.092115.709.202756 webmail13.nyc.untd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <9G4vFD.A.DBF.egnVDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63893 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: gesrebspar juno.com wrote: >Vortwxians- If CF would come out tomorrow we would still > need our reservoirs for twenty years. The new system > would require a gradual replacement of all powered > systems that run on oil and gas. I disagree. I predict the transformation will be very slow for the first three to five years or so, while corporations frantically refit production lines to make cold fusion powered vehicles and other devices. Once large-scale production begins the transformation will be very swift. Within five years it will be no gasoline powered vehicles on the road. I explain the reasons in my book, in chapter 7 section 5; chapter 4, section 2; and chapter 20. (The book is at http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJcoldfusiona.pdf, by the way.) The pattern will be similar to the US weapons industry from 1935 to 1945. Very little will be produced at first, as industries are converted in new factories are prepared. Then there will be a sudden and unprecedented upturn in production. The moment it becomes clear to people everywhere in the world that cold fusion is real and that it will soon be commercialized, the price of oil will collapse irrevocably. You will know this moment has come when cold fusion is featured in places such as the front page of the New York Times and Time magazine, and when the fossil fuel industry and its minions lashes out against it. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 19 09:51:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9JGoqjG024147; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 09:51:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9JGonbu024114; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 09:50:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 09:50:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051019124647.04508030 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 12:50:21 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: The price of oil with CF Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63894 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote, or rather dictated: "Within five years it will be no gasoline powered vehicles on the road. . . . Very little will be produced at first, as industries are converted in new factories are prepared." That was supposed to be: Within five years there will be no gasoline-powered vehicles on the road. [Because there will be no gas stations; see book.] . . . Very little will be produced at first, as industries are converted and new factories are prepared. Sorry about that . . . I must have a sinus condition. I should edit more carefully. Voice input has become so easy you tend to trust it, and dash off the message without careful proofreading. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 19 11:26:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9JIQ1ev020534; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 11:26:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9JIPxv7020476; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 11:25:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 11:25:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00d101c5d4d3$2e616550$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: errata: compressibility reposting Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 10:33:12 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63895 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In my haste to further discredit petroleum vis-a-vis ethanol in the previous post, the issue of compressibility of combustion products was garbled - and glossed-over. It is a *big issue* for determining how "heat" gets translated into "work." It is also the subject of a fair amount of disinformation. The production auto engine (ICE) of today is only an average of 25% efficient using gasoline, for many reasons. One of them being the "unburned hydrocarbons" which are as much as 15% of the fuel usage, depending on RPM. And for another thing, there is the issue of the "compressibility" of CO2 which makes it a poor medium to use for Carnot heat-to-work expansion. Ethanol combustion solves both of these problems - particularly well for this type of engine. Steam is about 40% more effective for expanding to create work than CO2 and consequently, any engine which produces more steam and less CO2 will be more efficient than the base-line of 25% for gasoline, which one should keep in mind contains almost half-steam anyway. If the same ICE exhaust had no CO2, as when burning hydrogen, then you can figure 40% of the 50% is added on to the efficiency level and arrive at about 45% Carnot for burning hydrogen. This is proven, not speculation. OK -you can also get to 45% Carnot with a large diesel engine - but that is a different set of thermodynamic issues - so let's not get defocused here. This higher Carnot of spark-ignited engine, due mainly to more steam, has been proven recently with the Ford hydrogen ICE, and yes, it does require some degree of engine modification. But this steam dynamic issue is now proven. With ethanol, where you get about 2/3 steam to 1/3 CO2 the Carnot efficiency will be bumped up from 25% to over 30% and that is why burning ethanol - in a similar engine compared to gasoline - does not decrease the mileage as much as the lower heat-content of ethanol would suggest that it should. OTOH it should be remembered that the diesel is a totally different thermodynamic beast which does "squeeze" higher Carnot from CO2, and which does not benefit nearly as much from a conversion to ethanol as does the spark ignited engine. The above analysis only relates to spark ignition thermodynamics. Diesel engines can benefit from ethanol but not in the same way and to a lesser degree. Heat-content does matter with diesel. However, with other engines - too much heat at high pressure, can and is *wasted* all the time in an IC engine when burning spark-ignited gasoline. One only needs enough heat in the power cycle to insure complete combustion and to raise gas pressure in the cylinder to the optimum level, which is surprisingly low. In the critical region, gases can become so compressible that they loose their ability to transfer their heat energy dynamically to the surroundings. And some gases get to that state quickly. Carbon dioxide, for instance, has a *critical pressure* of only ~1000 psi, over three times lower than steam (3000 psi), and it has a molecular weight that is way over double steam and a velocity that is tortoise-like in comparison. In short, it's not a good medium for converting heat from gasoline combustion into mechanical energy - and it is a small miracle that spark-ignited hydrocarbons can even get to 25% efficiency. The Ideal Gas Law was first written in 1834 by Emil Clapeyron. Because it is a simple linear relationship, and works well at STP, it has misled many people to think combustion thermodynamics is a firm and clear-cut science. Unfortunately, the Gas Law doesn't work in the situation of explosive combustion, involving shock waves, adiabatics and "jerk". And it takes no account of thermo-chemical interaction, especially of short-lived intermediate species. This is where the diesel excels - it is doing some hydrocarbon "reforming" in situ. A typical IC engine requires a compression ratio of up to 10-1 to get up to 85%complete combustion of hydrocarbons (that's about the max, so there is usually 15% wasted off the top because of the strong molecular bonding of hydrocarbons and the "wetting" of cold metal at the boundaries) but when you burn hydrogen or a partially oxidized fuel like ethanol, you can get near-complete combustion - and at far less than the150 psi needed for gasoline. More fuel "mobility" faster flame speed, etc. all equal complete combustion. The ~1000 psi critical pressure for CO2 is only about 6 times higher then the compressed gas in the IC cylinder, so in practice - lets say that x-amount of calories from burning carbon will raise the gas pressure from 150 to 1000, then adding more than x is basically a poor return on investment. Catch-22, if you try to ignite the mixture with only x amount, it won't even ignite, so you may have to use 3x just to get ignition. Do you see the problem here? With gasoline, you may have already expended three times more fuel than you needed to raise the temperature of the gas to the optimum level, and that extra heat you added cannot be returned efficiently because the CO2 has exceeded it critical pressure. Bottom line - when you consider *both* the heat content of the fuel plus the Carnot gain, then the lower heat content of ethanol is offset by the added efficiency of a partially-oxidized fuel in a properly designed ICE.... The end result is that ethanol and gasoline are not far apart in energy delivered to the wheels of an automobile per gallon of fuel burned, even though the heat content of ethanol is 78,000 BTU/gallon vs.gasoline at 115,000 BTU/gallon. The added Carnot efficiency of the (properly designed) ICE engine realigns those figures so that for most practical purposes there is little comparative difference. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 19 11:56:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9JIuB6J004420; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 11:56:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9JIu7UB004378; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 11:56:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 11:56:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051019144401.044f8550 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 14:55:41 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: LPG powered vehicles In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20051019114429.04439eb0 pop.mindspring.com> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051019114429.04439eb0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63896 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: My point is that LPG produces less pollution than synthetic gasoline would. Perhaps it would also be easier to synthesize? Actually, with CF, LH might be a good choice. It is not a good choice today because of the extra energy needed to liquefied the gas. Storage is not a problem anymore. Small, lightweight cryogenic storage tanks can now hold the stuff for months. The fact that LH gradually boils away might even be an advantage to an urbanite like me. Imagine you drive a plug-in hybrid was in LH internal combustion engine. You drive short distances in town for months using battery power alone. When you decide to take a highway trip, you find that the LH tank is empty. The hydrogen has all boiled away. So you fill up the tank and hit the road. No big deal. In the same scenario with gasoline, you might find that the gasoline in the tank has gone "stale" and it gums up the engine. Hydrogen fuel that disappears without leaving a residue would be better. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 19 12:34:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9JJYBaX002240; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 12:34:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9JJY9FT002196; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 12:34:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 12:34:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Cheapest Way To Fix The Energy Crisis (and lots of other crises) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 15:41:19 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <4enh83$1hkmubm mxip15a.cluster1.charter.net> In-Reply-To: <4enh83$1hkmubm mxip15a.cluster1.charter.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200510191541.19107.rockcast earthlink.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63897 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wednesday 19 October 2005 12:20, OrionWorks wrote: > > goering sez: > > > OrionWorks sez: > > > > > > Could you also add the ability to cancel all my > > > credit card debt as well? > > > > > > With consumer goods freed up I'd really like a fresh > > > start in my purchasing prowess. > > > > I'll tell you one thing, no matter how nice a home you > > live in now, in a few years you could move into a > > palace. People alive now would live off the fat of the > > land as the population nosedived. > > > > If you think the anti-sterility option is unrealistic, > > then waiting in the wings is the not-so-humane option > > of engineered diseases, and those are probably already > > in existence, and just need some crazy leader to use > > them. Maybe Sharon will try one on Iran. > > > > Either way, sterility or disease, it's a hell of a lot > > cheaper than chasing after ways to squeeze more and > > more btus out of our resources to feed more and more > > people. More humane, too, in the long run. > > It's certainly "humane" in terms of my best interests. > > I especially like the part where I get all the stuff. > > Regards, > Steven Vincent Johnson > www.OrionWorkscom What about if you get all the diseases instead and somebody ELSE gets all YOUR stuff. Have you thought of that? Standing Bear From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 19 12:53:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9JJqxxu019076; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 12:53:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9JJqvhP019024; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 12:52:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 12:52:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4356A3F5.10303 pobox.com> Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 15:52:21 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.10) Gecko/20050719 Fedora/1.7.10-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Say it ain't so References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63898 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: > My friend was going on about the Bali bomb having been a nuke. > Nonsense, I replied, if it was, there would be radioactivity. My > friend countered that this was a clean atom bomb. My reply was, this > doesn't exist. Send me the URL, which he did, see > http://joevialls.net/nuke/bali_micro_nuke.htm . The first red flag was > Zionist plot, like the Israelis have nothing better to do than blow up > night clubs in the pacific. Right, well said. Real mico-nukes are hard to produce. The article mentions the object achieved "critical mass" -- no, not really, micro-nukes don't do that in the conventional sense. They need to be imploded to extreme density, as I understand it, by a perfectly shaped, very powerful trigger charge in the form of a spherical shell of high explosive which compresses the fissile material to extreme density, in order to get a chain reaction going without requiring a critical mass. (Critical mass under ordinary conditions is something on the order of 30 pounds of uranium, so says Wikipedia, and it makes for quite a good-sized "bang" -- not "micro" at all.) Research to produce really small versions of such devices would be a major project, and IIRC it has (supposedly) not been done: the U.S. abandoned research into battlefield nukes (which is what we're talking about here) quite some time back because it conflicted with the tenets of MAD. The Bush administration was going to restart said research, but I don't know if that actually happened; a lot of people found the idea pretty objectionable, because the existence of effective battlefield nukes would make it too easy to escalate a conventional war into a nuclear one. As long as the first nuclear step is a _big_ step it's less likely that anybody will take it (or so goes the theory). As to radiation, it's really unclear how you'd go about eliminating the radiation burst when the bomb goes off. Like, really, _really_ unclear. It's also unclear how you eliminate _all_ fallout, which is necessary if you are to fool everyone into thinking it wasn't a nuclear explosive when they examine the site afterwards. I mean, what's the uranium/plutonium/whatnot turn into that's totally non-radioactive? Breaks all the way down into iron, maybe? Hmmm... But really, you said it all, up top: Anyone who starts by asserting this is a "Zionist plot" is already lost in the weeds and I think we can disregard the rest of the page, because that initial assertion makes no sense. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 19 12:56:42 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9JJu2jD020979; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 12:56:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9JJtxNo020903; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 12:55:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 12:55:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=aZtsy/qX2J9HPSl/0rBzWwq9v/Pj1Ibve2412Dydly4R6zwARX/RgbVEV2MvHGGC; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200510319185441500 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Cold fusion with Ti Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 13:54:41 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940649ec6f11a776f65cdc47444ab5269ec350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.159.37 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63899 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Jed Rothwell wrote: > > http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/Bernardinianomalouse.pdf > They used 0.6 molar K2CO3 in 100 milliliters of D2O. The post-mortem gamma spectroscopy was performed on the Ti cathodes after about a million of seconds of electrolysis. One out of every 11,170 atoms of Potassium is Radioactive Potassium-40 ~ 11% of these emit a 1.46 eV gamma and a Positron which annihilates with an electron giving off two 0.511 Mev gammas. Discharge of the K+ ions on the Ti can form a gamma-emitting Titanium Nickelates KxTiOy. Regards Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Jed Rothwell wrote:
>
>
They used 0.6 molar K2CO3 in 100 milliliters of D2O.
The post-mortem gamma spectroscopy was performed on the Ti cathodes
after about a million of seconds of electrolysis.
 
One out of every 11,170 atoms of Potassium is Radioactive Potassium-40
~ 11% of these emit a 1.46 eV gamma and a Positron which annihilates
with an electron giving off two 0.511 Mev gammas.
Discharge of the K+ ions on the Ti can form a gamma-emitting Titanium Nickelates
KxTiOy.
 
Regards
 
Frederick
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 19 13:09:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9JK9FZ3029246; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 13:09:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9JK9EEu029226; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 13:09:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 13:09:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <4enk8j$9r267c mxip30a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.97,231,1125892800"; d="scan'208"; a="330373356:sNHT22015458" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: OrionWorks Organization: OrionWorks To: CC: Subject: Re: The Cheapest Way To Fix The Energy Crisis (and lots of other crises) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 15:08:52 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63900 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Standing Bear > > On Wednesday 19 October 2005 12:20, OrionWorks wrote: > > > goering sez: > > > > OrionWorks sez: > > > > > > > > Could you also add the ability to cancel all my > > > > credit card debt as well? > > > > > > > > With consumer goods freed up I'd really like a fresh > > > > start in my purchasing prowess. > > > > > > I'll tell you one thing, no matter how nice a home you > > > live in now, in a few years you could move into a > > > palace. People alive now would live off the fat of the > > > land as the population nosedived. > > > > > > If you think the anti-sterility option is unrealistic, > > > then waiting in the wings is the not-so-humane option > > > of engineered diseases, and those are probably already > > > in existence, and just need some crazy leader to use > > > them. Maybe Sharon will try one on Iran. > > > > > > Either way, sterility or disease, it's a hell of a lot > > > cheaper than chasing after ways to squeeze more and > > > more btus out of our resources to feed more and more > > > people. More humane, too, in the long run. > > > > It's certainly "humane" in terms of my best interests. > > > > I especially like the part where I get all the stuff. > > > > Regards, > > Steven Vincent Johnson > > www.OrionWorkscom > > What about if you get all the diseases instead and > somebody ELSE gets all YOUR stuff. Have you thought > of that? > > Standing Bear > A little hint is in order here: It's called sarcasm. If your're still confused let me be even more clear about my personal opinion on the topic: It's a very bad idea. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 19 13:19:21 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9JKIloA002728; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 13:19:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9JKIjN0002697; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 13:18:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 13:18:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051019151644.0454aaf0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 16:17:59 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Photosynthesis upper limits are unclear Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63901 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: When I was researching chapter 16, I read two or three books in a dozen papers about photosynthesis and food factories, and I corresponded with researchers at Cornell, NASA, and Tokai U. Plant Factory Laboratory. One of the questions I asked was: what are the upper limits of photosynthesis conversion efficiency? Under ideal temperature, CO2 content and so on, what percent of the light will be captured? The answer was: "Good question. We don't know." You might think they would know because the chemistry of photosynthesis has been worked out in detail. But it is complicated, and for these people, increasing efficiency is a secondary goal, not a primary goal. At the Cosmoplant factory, lettuce grows to maturity in one month, whereas on a farm it takes three months. They could make it grow even faster, but for the first two weeks they actually slow down the growth because that makes the lettuce taste better. Their primary goal is to make good tasting food. Secondary goals include: reducing spoilage from bacteria and mold; reducing the cost of equipment and capital per head of lettuce; speeding up growth to improve factory throughput; and reducing the amount of energy input per head of lettuce. The latter they achieved mainly by using only red LED to produce photosynthetically active radiation (PAR). At NASA, primary goals include reducing space, reducing the danger of bacteria and spoilage (which would mean the astronauts starve to death), and finding nutritious plants that require little attention from the astronauts. It may be that people trying to produce biofuel or bacterial production of hydrogen have done more research to optimize photosynthesis without regard to other parameters (such as the taste). As I show in chapter 16, the Cosmoplant factory lettuce photosynthesizes roughly 15% of the light into food. (Don't worry -- Professor Ashida checked my computation. See footnote 135.) This is PAR; no plant could convert 15% of white light into food. Ashida and others say they suppose the upper limit may be 20% to 25%. If a plant could do that, it would be competitive with solar thermal generators and better than all but the most advanced PV. But it would be impossible to approach that limit outdoors under natural conditions over a huge area. As I said, the limiting factor is not sunlight but rather temperature, water, nutrition and so on. These can be optimized in the laboratory or food factory, but not outdoors. You could build a greenhouse and optimize conditions over a small area of land, but you could not do this over millions of hectares of land because there is not enough freshwater in North America. If you supplied desalinated water and fertilizer you would be inputting energy into the system. In North American land on average, the limit is about 0.1%, as I said, and that is not a function of the species but rather the environment. Some species do better than others but I think the difference is probably limited to the ~27% improvement described in the Science Daily article. That is impressive, but it still means that biofuel can only produce a few percent of our total energy in any realistic scenario. To put this perspective, as James Beene pointed out, one acre in Illinois at a university can produce 500 million BTU. That sounds impressive until you realize that each person in the US consumes 338 million BTU per year, so it would take nearly an acre of prime agricultural land per person. There are only 2 or 3 acres of arable land per person in the US, and most of it is not as good as the land in Illinois. In actual practice, as Pimentel and others have calculated, it would take twice the total land area of the U.S. to grow all the biofuel we need with ordinary plants, and even if we increase efficiency by 27%, or 50% with a super-hybrid, there would still be nowhere near enough land. The only realistic scenario would be to devote perhaps 10% of our farmland to growing biofuel. Even this would raise the price of food and probably condemn millions of people outside the US to starvation. In return, we would produce 3% of the energy we consume, or perhaps 5% with a super-hybrid. Assume we convert this biomass into a substitute for petroleum, and we do this with incredibly efficiency, say 20%. We end up with 4 quads of energy. Petroleum consumption would be reduced from 24 quads down to 20 (17%). We would still import nearly half our oil, we would still be in hock to Saudi Arabia, and a few years later, as the remaining US oil wells dry up, we would be back to importing 60%. Other methods, such as plug-in hybrids, could easily reduce petroleum consumption by half, and eventually by 90% or more. Once that happens, it might be a good idea to use biomass liquid fuel to meet the small residual demand, as suggested by Schultz and Woolsey. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 19 13:20:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9JKJY02003257; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 13:19:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9JKJWT1003219; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 13:19:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 13:19:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=jNu2bTLfRkRBBexR2P6qfde+tzjmlL2cc/5d5e4qNMBpLHq1SemX2FM1EHvPzNFN; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220051031919189620 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Cold fusion with Ti Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 14:18:09 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9403259712af64a738f0396d2821cb1a713350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.159.165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63902 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Not Titanium Nickelates Fred. Potassium & BariumTitanates, KxTiOy &BaTiOx. 0.2 amperes of K+ and D+ is about 1.2e18 cations per second discharging at the cathode. FJS ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l eskimo.com Sent: 10/19/05 2:56:17 PM Subject: Cold fusion with Ti Jed Rothwell wrote: > > http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/Bernardinianomalouse.pdf > They used 0.6 molar K2CO3 in 100 milliliters of D2O. The post-mortem gamma spectroscopy was performed on the Ti cathodes after about a million of seconds of electrolysis. One out of every 11,170 atoms of Potassium is Radioactive Potassium-40 ~ 11% of these emit a 1.46 eV gamma and a Positron which annihilates with an electron giving off two 0.511 Mev gammas. Discharge of the K+ ions on the Ti can form a gamma-emitting Titanium Nickelates KxTiOy. Regards Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Not Titanium Nickelates Fred.  Potassium & BariumTitanates, KxTiOy &BaTiOx.
 
0.2 amperes of K+ and D+  is about 1.2e18 cations per second
discharging at the cathode.
 
FJS
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 10/19/05 2:56:17 PM
Subject: Cold fusion with Ti

Jed Rothwell wrote:
>
>
They used 0.6 molar K2CO3 in 100 milliliters of D2O.
The post-mortem gamma spectroscopy was performed on the Ti cathodes
after about a million of seconds of electrolysis.
 
One out of every 11,170 atoms of Potassium is Radioactive Potassium-40
~ 11% of these emit a 1.46 eV gamma and a Positron which annihilates
with an electron giving off two 0.511 Mev gammas.
Discharge of the K+ ions on the Ti can form a gamma-emitting Titanium Nickelates
KxTiOy.
 
Regards
 
Frederick
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 19 13:29:54 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9JKTM9X012256; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 13:29:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9JKTI79012195; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 13:29:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 13:29:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=eCGlmoXXwD6k9MWAKJTfys98WqZCBO07zpV7Zb96D2uZTRAw5HomS8kje97yUVCy; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200510319192756670 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Cold fusion with Ti Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 14:27:56 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940790f25b584b963f641e4b5e95abeee79350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.159.165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63903 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Between the full moon and seasonal allergies. :-( Potassium and Calcium Titanates KxTiOy & CaTiOy. If this ain't right. forget it. FJS ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 10/19/05 3:19:50 PM Subject: Cold fusion with Ti Not Titanium Nickelates Fred. Potassium & BariumTitanates, KxTiOy &BaTiOx. 0.2 amperes of K+ and D+ is about 1.2e18 cations per second discharging at the cathode. FJS ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l eskimo.com Sent: 10/19/05 2:56:17 PM Subject: Cold fusion with Ti Jed Rothwell wrote: > > http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/Bernardinianomalouse.pdf > They used 0.6 molar K2CO3 in 100 milliliters of D2O. The post-mortem gamma spectroscopy was performed on the Ti cathodes after about a million of seconds of electrolysis. One out of every 11,170 atoms of Potassium is Radioactive Potassium-40 ~ 11% of these emit a 1.46 eV gamma and a Positron which annihilates with an electron giving off two 0.511 Mev gammas. Discharge of the K+ ions on the Ti can form a gamma-emitting Titanium Nickelates KxTiOy. Regards Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Between the full moon and seasonal allergies.  :-(
 
Potassium and Calcium Titanates KxTiOy &  CaTiOy.
 
If this ain't right. forget it.
 
FJS
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 10/19/05 3:19:50 PM
Subject: Cold fusion with Ti

Not Titanium Nickelates Fred.  Potassium & BariumTitanates, KxTiOy &BaTiOx.
 
0.2 amperes of K+ and D+  is about 1.2e18 cations per second
discharging at the cathode.
 
FJS
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 10/19/05 2:56:17 PM
Subject: Cold fusion with Ti

Jed Rothwell wrote:
>
>
They used 0.6 molar K2CO3 in 100 milliliters of D2O.
The post-mortem gamma spectroscopy was performed on the Ti cathodes
after about a million of seconds of electrolysis.
 
One out of every 11,170 atoms of Potassium is Radioactive Potassium-40
~ 11% of these emit a 1.46 eV gamma and a Positron which annihilates
with an electron giving off two 0.511 Mev gammas.
Discharge of the K+ ions on the Ti can form a gamma-emitting Titanium Nickelates
KxTiOy.
 
Regards
 
Frederick
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 19 13:44:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9JKi14S021074; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 13:44:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9JKhuKA020989; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 13:43:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 13:43:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051019164232.0451a720 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 16:43:23 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Long article about cold fusion in Salt Lake City Weekly Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63904 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is mostly stupid nonsense, but any news is good news. See: http://www.slweekly.com/editorial/2005/feat_2005-10-20.cfm - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 19 13:53:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9JKrA5b026013; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 13:53:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9JKr9pT025996; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 13:53:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 13:53:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <010801c5d4ef$0e7b21b0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051019151644.0454aaf0 pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Photosynthesis upper limits are unclear Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 13:52:44 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0105_01C5D4B4.61B830B0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63905 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0105_01C5D4B4.61B830B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jed Rothwell > To put this perspective.... one acre in Illinois at a can produce 500 = million BTU. That sounds impressive until you realize that each person = in the US consumes 338 million BTU per year, so it would take nearly an = acre of prime agricultural land per person. There are only 2 or 3 acres = of arable land per person in the US, and most of it is not as good as = the land in Illinois.=20 Right figures. Wrong conclusion. It takes only 1/4 acre of land to feed = the average citizen for one year. Intelligently managed, one acre of = land can both feed and supply the energy needs for every citizen. At = present population levels, we have the luxury of an approximate 300% = cushion of available land versus need for this. Once again Pimentel's own previously debunked conclusion do not follow = from fairly accurate figures and have proven his "spin" and = racist-tainted logic laughably incorrect.... as expected.=20 Note to mention, there is plenty of prime land here for biomass crops, = land which is not now considered arable - the Bayous and swamp lands = being prime examples. However - and most importantly - the move to Aquanol need not involve = American farmers at all !! should they do not wish to get involved, as = there is more than enough prime land - previously deforested and now = fallow - in the Amazon to supply a substitute fuel for the 4-5 quads of = petroleum we are currently importing from unfriendly nations. Jones ------=_NextPart_000_0105_01C5D4B4.61B830B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jed Rothwell
 
> To put this perspective.... one = acre in=20 Illinois at a can produce 500 million BTU. That sounds impressive until=20 you  realize that each person in the US consumes 338 million BTU = per year,=20 so it would take nearly an  acre of prime agricultural land per = person.=20 There are only 2 or 3 acres of arable land per person in the US, and = most of it=20 is not as good as the land in Illinois.
 
Right figures. Wrong conclusion. It = takes only 1/4=20 acre of land to feed the average citizen for one year. Intelligently = managed,=20 one acre of land can both feed and supply the energy needs for every = citizen. At=20 present population levels, we have the luxury of an approximate 300% = cushion of=20 available land versus need for this.
 
Once again Pimentel's own = previously debunked=20 conclusion do not follow from fairly accurate figures and have proven = his "spin"=20 and racist-tainted logic laughably incorrect.... as expected. =
 
Note to mention, there is plenty of = prime land here=20 for biomass crops, land which is not now considered arable - the Bayous = and=20 swamp lands being prime examples.
 
However - and most importantly - the = move to=20 Aquanol need not involve American farmers at all !! should they do not = wish to=20 get involved, as there is more than enough prime land - previously = deforested=20 and now fallow - in the Amazon to supply a substitute fuel for the 4-5 = quads of=20 petroleum we are currently importing from unfriendly = nations.
 
Jones
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0105_01C5D4B4.61B830B0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 19 14:03:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9JL2VXM031289; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 14:02:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9JL2UAh031269; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 14:02:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 14:02:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=HX4kvOqWo37KcKbvRzorJ4J7OuTu7aWLr/8ePj4Cink+E23XtE0O/kOaGdI4hAnF; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220051031920112110 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Photosynthesis upper limits are unclear Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 15:01:12 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940d21050077def5daefe7ccecf349321b7350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.141 Resent-Message-ID: <5ureQ.A.goH.lRrVDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63906 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII I'll wager that purchase of one hectare of land in the 9th ward of New Orleans at $10.00/meter^2 can produce 0.1% solar efficient electricity or methanol from sugar cane, bamboo or elephant grass a lot more profitably than the cheapest 10% efficient state-of-the-art Photovoltaic or solar-thermal device of comparable output. Or you can dredge the lower Mississippi soil onto three-hectare-sized barges (concrete?) (twice the deck size of container ships) and set up floating solar-biomass farms in the tropics. R.O treated seawater provides irrigation and plant minerals for year-around sustained production of ~200 tonnes/hectare. Wind turbine powered propulsion and housekeeping of course. :-) Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

I'll wager that purchase of one hectare of land in the
9th ward of New Orleans at $10.00/meter^2 can produce
0.1% solar efficient electricity or methanol from sugar cane, bamboo
or elephant grass a lot more profitably than the cheapest 10% efficient
state-of-the-art Photovoltaic or solar-thermal device of comparable output.
 
Or you can dredge the lower Mississippi soil onto three-hectare-sized barges (concrete?)
(twice the deck size of container ships) and set up floating solar-biomass
farms in the tropics. R.O treated seawater provides irrigation and plant minerals
for year-around sustained production of ~200 tonnes/hectare.
 
Wind turbine powered propulsion and housekeeping of course.  :-)
 
Frederick
 
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 19 14:42:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9JLfoAL023403; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 14:42:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9JLfnHc023380; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 14:41:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 14:41:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051019170410.044f3470 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 17:40:16 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Photosynthesis upper limits are unclear In-Reply-To: <010801c5d4ef$0e7b21b0$6401a8c0 NuDell> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051019151644.0454aaf0 pop.mindspring.com> <010801c5d4ef$0e7b21b0$6401a8c0 NuDell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63907 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >Right figures. Wrong conclusion. It takes only 1/4 acre of land to feed >the average citizen for one year. Not with the U.S. diet. We eat a tremendous amount of meat, and this takes 10 times more starting plant food (mainly cattle feed). Even with our fertilizer intense production it takes more than 1/4th acre to feed one American. The rest of our agricultural land is presently devoted to producing food for export. If we use it to grow biofuel instead, more people overseas will starve. Two billion are already at the edge of starvation and millions die from malnutrition. If the people working on synthetic meat succeed, this will instantly solve all the world's food problems. (See http://www.new-harvest.org/default.php.) This would be the second most important breakthrough of the last hundred years, after cold fusion. > Intelligently managed, one acre of land can both feed and supply the > energy needs for every citizen. With a vegetarian diet yes, and only if you don't mind killing a few million more people overseas. >Once again Pimentel's own previously debunked conclusion do not follow >from fairly accurate figures and have proven his "spin" and racist-tainted >logic laughably incorrect.... These are not Pimentel's figures. They are from NASA, Tokai U., and Cosmoplant Corp., as noted. The idea of replacing food crops with biofuel crops may not be racist, but it ignores the fact that a third of the human population lives on the edge of starvation. That is as bad as any brutal racist could be. Even if the biofuel comes from Brazil, that does not excuse the policy. They could grow food in Brazil instead of fuel. Although I have grave reservations about things like uranium fission reactors, I would much rather see the nations of the world build 3,000 more of them than devote a significant fraction of the world's arable land to biofuel. Even if that meant a meltdown every year, that would kill fewer people than biofuel would, and it would eliminate the use of fossil fuel. As a practical matter it would be better to build the equivalent of ~1,500 fission reactors with wind and solar thermal plants, and ~1,500 advanced next-generation fission reactors. (I mean ~3,000 plants of the average U.S. nuke plant size, 900 MWe. This be approximately enough to produce all of the electricity and synthetic fuel we now use, with several assumptions about efficiency, plug-in hybrids, future growth, replacing existing nuke plants, etc., etc. There are presently 442 nukes worldwide. The U.S. could generate all energy with about 700 plants: 500 for electricity + fuel synthesis, and 200 for chemical fuel synthesis only. The whole world needs roughly 700 * 4 = 2,800.) - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 19 14:58:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9JLvxDC032207; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 14:58:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9JLvwWa032183; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 14:57:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 14:57:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051019174055.044fe060 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 17:57:20 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Photosynthesis upper limits are unclear In-Reply-To: <410-220051031920112110 earthlink.net> References: <410-220051031920112110 earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63908 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick Sparber wrote: >I'll wager that purchase of one hectare of land in the >9th ward of New Orleans at $10.00/meter^2 can produce >0.1% solar efficient electricity or methanol from sugar cane, bamboo >or elephant grass a lot more profitably than the cheapest 10% efficient >state-of-the-art Photovoltaic or solar-thermal device of comparable output. You definitely win on photovoltaics, no matter where they are located. A solar-thermal unit located in Louisiana would also be a losing proposition. But if you are comparing sugarcane in Louisiana to a 100 MW solar-thermal unit in Nevada or Southern California, or to a wind turbine in a choice location in North Dakota, you lose. The cost per kilowatt hour for these things has been worked out in great detail, and there is no question that was present day technology solar thermal in a desert area is cheaper than any biofuel scheme. Of course that might change with improvements in the technology. Alternative energy schemes are complicated and one that works well in one region may be unsuited for another. Some work only on a small scale and some, such as solar thermal units, are only cost-effective on a large-scale. Comparing them is often like comparing apples and oranges. The oldest form of biofuel is firewood. It is widely used in the U.S., and it is increasing. In the electric power sector, it produced 3 trillion BTU in 1949, 100 trillion in 1989, and 135 trillion in 2002. In 2002 solar produced 8, and wind 106 trillion BTU, so biofuel is still way ahead. (EIA Annual Energy Review, Table 10.2b.) I have no problem with this level of use. I doubt it affects food production, and the US is not suffering from deforestation from agriculture or harvesting trees for such purposes. We are causing deforestation from suburban sprawl and asphalt, but that is another story. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 19 15:00:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9JM0EM2001200; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 15:00:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9JM0CCn001181; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 15:00:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 15:00:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Subject: RE: Photosynthesis upper limits are unclear Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 16:59:46 -0500 Message-ID: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50A3B695A CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Photosynthesis upper limits are unclear thread-index: AcXU9guVVQGXwe4JQI+4Kxt2ysxEtgAAM0wg From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Oct 2005 21:59:47.0683 (UTC) FILETIME=[6BE14330:01C5D4F8] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j9JLxp7R000915 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63909 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:JedRothwell mindspring.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2005 5:40 PM To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Re: Photosynthesis upper limits are unclear Jones Beene wrote: >Right figures. Wrong conclusion. It takes only 1/4 acre of land to feed >the average citizen for one year. Not with the U.S. diet. We eat a tremendous amount of meat, and this takes 10 times more starting plant food (mainly cattle feed). Even with our fertilizer intense production it takes more than 1/4th acre to feed one American. The rest of our agricultural land is presently devoted to producing food for export. If we use it to grow biofuel instead, more people overseas will starve. Two billion are already at the edge of starvation and millions die from malnutrition. US farmers will produce whatever is profitable! If two billion are underfed, it is because of lack of money , not lack of farmland. Enormous areas of the US have gone back to nature because of the increase in agricultural productivity and conversion to an industrial economy over the past century. I live in upstate NY and dare anyone to drive thru this state, the rest of New England and Pennsylvania and take note of the huge areas that are barely populated at all - after many decades of downsizing farms. The dominant reason for starvation is bad government, as the former exporter Zimbabwe shows - not lack of useable farm land. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 19 15:16:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9JMFtFR013679; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 15:16:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9JMFsZr013649; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 15:15:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 15:15:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <012301c5d4fa$9daf21a0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051019151644.0454aaf0 pop.mindspring.com> <010801c5d4ef$0e7b21b0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051019170410.044f3470@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Photosynthesis upper limits are unclear Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 15:15:29 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <048a5C.A.LVD.aWsVDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63910 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell writes, > Not with the U.S. diet. We eat a tremendous amount of meat, and > this takes 10 times more starting plant food (mainly cattle > feed). Wrong (partially). We do eat too much meat here but not more than Europe, where the 1/4 acre standard has been in place for a long time - and it only takes 10 times more land IF you allow predominantly open-grazing, which is not really necessary, nor is it a wise use of land, if that land can be way-more productive in biomass. > Even with our fertilizer intense production it takes more than > 1/4th acre to feed one American. Wrong (partially). We simply do not us our land wisely now. The fact that we use more than necessary does not imply that we must always be as extravagantly foolish in the future as we have been in the past. > The rest of our agricultural land is presently devoted to > producing food for export. If we use it to grow biofuel instead, > more people overseas will starve. Two billion are already at > the edge of starvation and millions die from malnutrition. There may be some truth to this - but are we supposed to feed the world AND also pay exorbitant fuel prices? No ! We must work out some accomodation on this - and one clear answer is to use tropical land and cheap labor for ethanol, and keep US corn fields for corn. I think Brazil is willing to go along with us on this - as they need the approximately half million jobs which selling us 4 quads of ethanol would bring. Here is the story on how much land it takes for food - Pimentel notwithstanding. West Germany in a nation nearly as prosperous as the USA, maybe more so these days - depending on the value of the Euro. They certainly drive flashier cars on average than we do (and speed along much faster on the autoban) and are self-sufficient in agriculture. They do this on a little more than 1/4 acre per person per year of arable land. They use it wisely but still they have a lot of misused "grazing" land for cattle. The Netherlands has less land and feeds its popualtion on an eighth of an acre of arable land per capita, but they import feed-grain as land is more valuable there for housing. Both countries eat almost as much meat as we do. The amount of land required to feed a population is highly dependent on your prioities. You can graze 100 cows on 100 acres or you can put them in a 1 acre feed lot and feed them on just a fraction of those 100 acres if planted in corn. In the USA we choose the open grazing option, so our arable land per capita for food is on paper "artifcially" high and distorted - all becasue of our inefficient usage for cattle. If you are a bug specialist and have an inordinant fear of being overrun by Latinos, and you want to influence public opinion, then you will cleverly get the word out that here is the USA we cannot tolerate many more immigrants, because there is too little arable land for that - and you will fudge and distort your figures to reflect just this kind of ingrained paranoia. Balderdash. I live in the most populated state in the USA and in the fifth largest metropolitan area - 7.5 million, and there are almost as many Latinos as whites here, and am 10 minutes from the heart of the financial district - and it is NOT at all overcrowded from my perspective (except at rush hour on 101). There are actually too many deer this year and we are trying to get them thinned out becasue of Lymes disease. But then again I am not a paranoid bug-specialist who fears immigrants, nor do I like insects more than people - so yes, I am going to go to every take every opportunity to show Pimentel for the foolish idiot that he is. Plain and simple. We do not need that kind of disinformation floating around under the guise of authoritative science. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 19 15:17:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9JMGPXb014370; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 15:16:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9JMGLWP014293; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 15:16:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 15:16:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051019175908.04509630 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 18:15:49 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: I meant all fuel, period In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20051019170410.044f3470 pop.mindspring.com> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051019151644.0454aaf0 pop.mindspring.com> <010801c5d4ef$0e7b21b0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051019170410.044f3470 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63911 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: >(I mean ~3,000 plants of the average U.S. nuke plant size, 900 MWe. This >be approximately enough to produce all of the electricity and synthetic >fuel we now use . . . I meant all fuel, period. That is to say, this would be enough to synthesize enough liquid and gas fuel to replace all of the petroleum and coal we now use. This is a very rough estimate, and a very complicated issue. I am making broad assumptions about improved efficiency and other changes in technology. I am ignoring many vitally important factors such as the explosive growth of the Chinese economy. 3,000 is an absurdly round number I admit, but there is no point to trying to estimate it any closer, say to nearest 100 nuke plants. In the professional literature you see many estimates and they vary widely, sometimes wildly. Honestly, this number might be anywhere from 2,000 to 4,000 depending on what assumptions you throw into the spreadsheet and what book you read. A 1990 paper from EPRI published in the Scientific American, for example, concludes that we might reduce electricity consumption by 25%, or maybe the number should be 70%. This is not because the people at EPRI are idiots who cannot make up their mind. It is because they are making a range of assumptions about how much society would be willing to invest in R&D, conservation, and about the future cost of energy, and other factors which are so complex no one can predict them. If you take conventional fuel synthesis from electricity, and you assume that cars will continue to consume as much liquid fuel as they now do, my estimate looks like nonsense. Obviously this transition would take decades, perhaps even a century, unlike the transition to cold fusion. It would also cost vast sums of money whereas cold fusion machinery would actually be cheaper than the gadgets we now make, and the fuel would cost virtually nothing. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 19 15:30:21 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9JMTq1Y026728; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 15:30:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9JMTobx026698; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 15:29:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 15:29:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: The Cheapest Way To Fix The Energy Crisis (and lots of other crises) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 17:29:31 -0500 Message-ID: <000001c5d4fc$9494e440$5c5e10ac eDentsply.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j9JMTXMY026552 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63912 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Sterility drug? You first. 8^) You mean like... http://www.mindfully.org/Plastic/PVC-Barbie-Dolls.htm While it would be nice to think it a sinister plot, I sincerely doubt it is anything more than our own carelessness... http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/07/0729_020729_fishhormones_2.h tml -john -----Original Message----- From: thomas malloy [mailto:temalloy metro.lakes.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2005 10:33 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: The Cheapest Way To Fix The Energy Crisis (and lots of other crises) >herr goering wrote > >"If 1/100th of the money and time spent on these >schemes was used to develop a sterility drug, and if The way to do it is develop an estrogen mimicing chemical disguised as a plastic softening agent and mix it in with plastic used to bottle food and beverage. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 19 15:48:54 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9JMmQpM003774; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 15:48:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9JMmPH4003761; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 15:48:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 15:48:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051019182029.044502f0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 18:48:02 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Photosynthesis upper limits are unclear In-Reply-To: <012301c5d4fa$9daf21a0$6401a8c0 NuDell> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051019151644.0454aaf0 pop.mindspring.com> <010801c5d4ef$0e7b21b0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051019170410.044f3470 pop.mindspring.com> <012301c5d4fa$9daf21a0$6401a8c0 NuDell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <8dycL.A.t6.40sVDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63913 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >>Not with the U.S. diet. We eat a tremendous amount of meat, and this >>takes 10 times more starting plant food (mainly cattle feed). > >Wrong (partially). We do eat too much meat here but not more than Europe, >where the 1/4 acre standard has been in place for a long time - and it >only takes 10 times more land IF you allow predominantly open-grazing . . . It does not take 10 times more land. It takes 10 times more starting plant food, mainly corn which is fed to cows. As you note, corn grows very densely in North America, whereas most nutritious vegetable food and wheat for people takes more space. (Incidentally, corn is a terrible thing to feed to a cow. Cows are not evolved to eat corn, and it causes terrible stomach upsets, misery and disease which can only be treated with massive amounts of antibiotics, which is causing yet another crisis.) This issue of land use is complicated by another factor, which I described in chapter 16. Even today, using conventional fission power or wind turbine electricity, we could grow most of our food in indoor food factories. The Cosmoplant factory uses a land area of 0.01 ha to grow as much lettuce as a 20 ha outdoor farm (a factor of 2000 improvement). This is just the start. This is a first-generation factory. If we can synthesize meat and grow plant food indoors we could probably reduce the surface area required to produce food by a factor of 100,000 or so, in a walk. This would also, ultimately, reduce the cost of food by a huge margin. Frankly, I consider agriculture a thoroughly obsolete industry that is long overdue for replacement, with or without cold fusion. >>Even with our fertilizer intense production it takes more than 1/4th acre >>to feed one American. > >Wrong (partially). We simply do not us our land wisely now. Without fertilizer, insecticide, irrigation and other intense energy inputs agricultural productivity everywhere in the world plummet. If we run out of oil before we find other sources of energy, the cost of food will go sky high and agricultural productivity will fall drastically. The system depends upon cheap fossil fuel energy, mainly oil. >But then again I am not a paranoid bug-specialist who fears immigrants, >nor do I like insects more than people - so yes, I am going to go to every >take every opportunity to show Pimentel for the foolish idiot that he is. >Plain and simple. It isn't just Pimentel. You are also contradicting Jarad Diamond and thousands of agricultural experts, biologists and ecologists worldwide say that agriculture is not renewable, it is destroying the land, and that in a few hundred more years land everywhere will look like it does in Iraq -- the former Golden Crescent. If you have read Diamond's books you will see that he is no racist. You are trying to make this out as if Pimentel is the only person the world making these claims, or the only person who has come up with these numbers. As I have repeatedly pointed out, that is untrue. You should at least acknowledge that he is not the only person you disagree with. You remind me of the anti-cold fusion debunkers who attack only Fleischmann's first paper, and pretend that the other 3,000 papers were never published. You should not personalize this discussion as an ad hominem attack against Pimentel, regardless of what you think of his politics. As I said, they bear no relevance to his conclusions. Actually, for the most part he is merely quoting other people's conclusions and the consensus of biologists and agricultural experts worldwide. Of course there is considerable dispute amongst the experts about the extent of the crisis, the rate at which land and water tables are being destroyed, and so on. Pimentel (and others) usually quote the range of estimates for these issues, including both optimistic and pessimistic numbers. People like Pimentel have never considered the potential effect of indoor food factories. You see many alarmist organizations and web sites about the future of land use and population pressure, but I have not seen a single one that mentions food factories. I doubt these people are even aware the work at Tokai U., Cosmoplant, or New-Harvest. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 19 15:49:54 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9JMnP7E004307; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 15:49:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9JMnMGF004265; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 15:49:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 15:49:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=c/ZxwimHa4wCswFR4AGdy9SA30nitEFfJTR7SV44MxqQLPAkUCHThO/6lHTI47X9; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22005103192147750 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Photosynthesis upper limits are unclear Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 16:47:07 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9408f4ea7dda545b2034c680fb41d67ceb9350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.181 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63914 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: : Zell, Chris wrote, > > US farmers will produce whatever is profitable! > Many are happy to break even, after paying the interest on their loans. This is why they can stomach the liberal prospect of producing subsidized fuel ethanol. > > Enormous areas of the US have gone back to nature because of the increase in agricultural productivity and conversion to an industrial economy over the past > century. > Yes. And many are getting about $35.00/acre of your tax dollars for brush-hogging the millions of acres in"soil bank" or set-aside acreage which aerobically oxidizes to CO2 or anaerobically converts to methane etc. > > I live in upstate NY and dare anyone to drive thru this state, the rest > of New England and Pennsylvania and take note of the huge areas that are > barely populated > at all - after many decades of downsizing farms. > Yep. I have a high school vocational agriculture (Future Farmers of America) classmate who stayed on the 300 acre family farm in northwestern Pennsylvania. He had no problem producing 160 bushel/acre corn. Now retired he burns a couple of gallons of diesel /acre brush-hogging it twice a year, and sets back enjoying the no worry income. The two gas wells on his property pays him 1/8 of what they sell plus all the gas he needs for heating the house and hobby shop and drying his laundry. I know of others getting the same bargain on less than 75 acres. Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 19 16:17:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9JNGWdC019461; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 16:16:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9JNGV89019445; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 16:16:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 16:16:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=mFpUJBQ5h6YYBU/NQ+rUdndLMWtyTLROEI5o+L7aPh9P4DcIyHtRwRUlIcgt5yu2; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220051031922153370 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Photosynthesis upper limits are unclear Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 17:15:03 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940da5e7c54e58b7dedd9f39c157c8b2cc6350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.158 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63915 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > > > (Incidentally, corn is a terrible thing to feed to a cow. Cows are not > evolved to eat corn, and it causes terrible stomach upsets, misery and > disease which can only be treated with massive amounts of antibiotics, > which is causing yet another crisis.) > LOL! Acidosis in steam rolled-cornflakes-fed feedlot cattle is prevented with copious quantities of NaHCO3 "baking soda" mixed in the feed, Jed. Been there done that. Also crops up in sheep winter pastured (gleaning shelled corn) on harvested corn fields. Frederick > > - Jed > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 19 16:51:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9JNog1Q006519; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 16:50:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9JNoeBh006491; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 16:50:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 16:50:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <015901c5d507$db2acdb0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051019151644.0454aaf0 pop.mindspring.com> <010801c5d4ef$0e7b21b0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051019170410.044f3470@pop.mindspring.com> <012301c5d4fa$9daf21a0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051019182029.044502f0@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Photosynthesis upper limits are unclear Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 16:50:16 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0156_01C5D4CD.2E67DCB0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63916 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0156_01C5D4CD.2E67DCB0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jed, =20 > Without fertilizer, insecticide, irrigation and other intense energy = inputs=20 > agricultural productivity everywhere in the world plummet.=20 None of these depends on petroleum, and especially not fertilizer. Even = India exports nuclear plants using an ammonia exchange processes for = fertilizer production. It is probably the very best use of nuclear = energy since nitrogen is everywhere - and these plants are easy to = construct in the form of floating factories. > If we run out of oil before we find other sources of energy, the cost = of food will go sky high and agricultural productivity will fall = drastically. That is why we need to develop Aquanol as a replacement for oil. Now! Yes. It will require fertilizer. Lots of it. Megatons. For instance the land in the Amazon is poor. But they have plenty of sun = and water and only need lots more nitrogen in the soil. This is the = perfect place for floating nuclear powered ammonium plants.=20 This Amazon land can be made incredibly productive on a sustainable = basis as long as there is a big river there - IF and only if we provide = lots of cheap nuclear derived fertilizer - and it does not necessarily = go back into the soil first (hydroponics proves that).=20 Every gigawatt of nuclear energy devoted to ammonium can return maybe 10 = times that much energy in Aquanol, a desirable liquid fuel. This is the = key fact you and Jared and the other 'experts' seem to be overlooking = this very important detail here. I would rather have 10 gallons of carbon-neutral Aquanol to power my = auto than one gallon equivalent of hydrogen, or the 1 gallon equivalent = of electrical energy to recharge batteries. This is a big ratio (and = unfortunately just a guess for now). This ratio of replacement = fertilizer needed for Amazon intensive farming is speculation, and could = be higher or lower. But few things in industry are cheaper than nuclear = ammonium products - and I will bet that every pound of yearly = ammonium-whatever added will return at least 10 pounds of pure ethanol = (20 pounds of Aquanol). That soil is poor - as mentioned - but the whole field of hydroponics = proves that you **do not need soil at all.**=20 Let me repeat this for the benefit of Mike, Jed and Mr. Diamond: YOU DO = NOT NEED SOIL TO GROW BIOMASS. Sure it is nice to have it so that the = egrass doesn't float off - but there is nothing magic or sacred in soil = - hydroponics proved this years ago. Give these plants enough sun, water, nitrogen and a very small amount of = water soluble minerals and they will - not just grow, but flourish. = Apparently Jared forgot to mentioned the hydroponics + nuclear = fertilizer angle. But he is not looking for real answers - just some = added drama to sell more hardbacks. > The system depends upon cheap fossil fuel energy, mainly oil. Absolutely not! Cheap oil is history. Forget about-it, as they say in = Joisy.=20 If you do not have much coal - then hydro, nuclear and wind are you best = options. China has coal but they are moving rapidly to hydro (best = option even when you have to displace millions), and rapidly into = nuclear (best option outside the USA) and some wind (best option in the = USA due to over-regulation of nuclear, and the fact we already have = maximized hydro). =20 > It isn't just Pimentel. You are also contradicting Jared Diamond and=20 > thousands of agricultural experts, biologists and ecologists worldwide = say=20 > that agriculture is not renewable, it is destroying the land, and that = in a=20 > few hundred more years land everywhere will look like it does in Iraq = --=20 I like to read Jared Diamond, and agree that he is no racist.=20 That would hurt his book sales. But he should in no way be considered to = be a top-level scientist or agronomist either... basically he is a good = science-journalists, and a good writer - out to sell as many books as = possible by creating drama where there is no drama.... and, yes the both = of us can identify with that ;-0=20 ... but for everyone of these "thousands" of experts that you mention, = there are just as many, or more, equally sane and less-dramatic but = non-alarmist agricultural experts, biologists and ecologists worldwide = who realize that humans have been intensely farming some areas for = thousands of years with no degradation in productivity.=20 Parts of Italy have been intensely farmed for 4000 years and in the Nile = Delta for 7000 years (of course it gets naturally replenished). You can = replenish naturally or you can replenish with a floating nuclear = ammonium plants. BTW - don't bother to tell Jared - he is off on his = next expose and will not want to realize he has blown this one. > the former Golden Crescent.=20 Do you mean the "Fertile Crescent" ?=20 Hey you can screw up any good farm land with bad farming practices. That = should be Jared's message - "don't use bad farming methods" and = replenish the land -=20 ... but not "don't farm" or "don't farm intensely." Jones ------=_NextPart_000_0156_01C5D4CD.2E67DCB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jed,
 
> Without fertilizer, = insecticide,=20 irrigation and other intense energy inputs
> agricultural = productivity=20 everywhere in the world plummet.
 
None of these depends on petroleum, and = especially=20 not fertilizer. Even India  exports nuclear = plants=20 using an ammonia exchange processes for fertilizer production. It = is=20 probably the very best use of nuclear energy since nitrogen is = everywhere - and=20 these plants are easy to construct in the form of floating=20 factories.
 
> If we run out of oil before we = find other=20 sources of energy, the cost of food will go sky high and agricultural=20 productivity will fall drastically.
 
That is why we need to develop Aquanol = as a=20 replacement for oil. Now!
 
Yes. It will require fertilizer. Lots = of it.=20 Megatons.
 
For instance the land in the Amazon is = poor. But=20 they have plenty of sun and water and only need lots more nitrogen in = the soil.=20 This is the perfect place for floating nuclear powered ammonium=20 plants. 
 
This Amazon land can be made incredibly = productive=20 on a sustainable basis as long as there is a big river there - IF = and only=20 if we provide lots of cheap nuclear derived fertilizer - and it does not = necessarily go back into the soil first (hydroponics proves that). =
 
Every gigawatt of nuclear energy = devoted to=20 ammonium can return maybe 10 times that much energy in Aquanol, a = desirable=20 liquid fuel. This is the key fact you and Jared and the other 'experts' = seem to=20 be overlooking this very important detail here.
 
I would rather have 10 gallons of = carbon-neutral=20 Aquanol to power my auto than one gallon equivalent of hydrogen, or = the 1=20 gallon equivalent of electrical energy to recharge batteries. This is a = big=20 ratio (and unfortunately just a guess for now). This ratio of = replacement=20 fertilizer needed for Amazon intensive farming is speculation, and could = be=20 higher or lower. But few things in industry are cheaper than nuclear = ammonium=20 products - and I will bet that every pound of yearly=20 ammonium-whatever added will return at least 10 pounds of pure = ethanol (20=20 pounds of Aquanol).
 
That soil is poor - as mentioned - but = the whole=20 field of hydroponics proves that you **do not need soil at all.** =
 
Let me repeat this for the benefit of = Mike, Jed and=20 Mr. Diamond: YOU DO NOT NEED SOIL TO GROW BIOMASS. Sure it is nice to = have it so=20 that the egrass doesn't float off - but there is nothing magic or sacred = in soil=20 - hydroponics proved this years ago.
 
Give these plants enough sun, = water, nitrogen=20 and a very small amount of water soluble minerals and they will - not = just grow,=20 but flourish. Apparently Jared forgot to mentioned the hydroponics + = nuclear=20 fertilizer angle. But he is not looking for real answers - just some = added drama=20 to sell more hardbacks.
 
> The system depends upon cheap = fossil fuel=20 energy, mainly oil.
 
Absolutely not! Cheap oil is history. = Forget=20 about-it, as they say in Joisy. 
 
If you do not have much coal - then = hydro, nuclear=20 and wind are you best options. China has coal but they are moving = rapidly to=20 hydro (best option even when you have to displace millions), and rapidly = into=20 nuclear (best option outside the USA) and some wind (best option in the = USA due=20 to over-regulation of nuclear, and the fact we already have maximized=20 hydro).
 
> It isn't just Pimentel. = You are also=20 contradicting Jared Diamond and
> thousands of agricultural = experts,=20 biologists and ecologists worldwide say
> that agriculture is not = renewable, it is destroying the land, and that in a
> few hundred = more=20 years land everywhere will look like it does in Iraq --
 
I like to read Jared Diamond, and agree = that he is=20 no racist.
 
That would hurt his book sales. But he = should in no=20 way be considered to be a top-level scientist or agronomist either... = basically=20 he is a good science-journalists, and a good writer - out to sell = as many=20 books as possible by creating drama where there is no drama.... = and, yes=20 the both of us can identify with that ;-0
 
... but for everyone of these = "thousands" of=20 experts that you mention, there are just as many, or more, = equally sane and=20 less-dramatic but non-alarmist agricultural experts, biologists and = ecologists worldwide who realize that humans have been = intensely farming=20 some areas for thousands of years with no degradation in productivity.=20
 
Parts of Italy have been intensely = farmed for 4000=20 years and in the Nile Delta for 7000 years (of course it gets naturally=20 replenished). You can replenish naturally or you can replenish with a = floating=20 nuclear ammonium plants. BTW - don't bother to tell Jared - he is off on = his=20 next expose and will not want to realize he has blown this = one.

> the former=20 Golden Crescent.
 
Do you mean the "Fertile Crescent" ? =
 
Hey you can screw up any good farm land = with bad=20 farming practices. That should be Jared's message - "don't use bad = farming=20 methods" and replenish the land -
 
... but not "don't farm" or "don't farm = intensely."
 
Jones
 
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0156_01C5D4CD.2E67DCB0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 19 17:38:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9K0c24d003763; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 17:38:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9K0brRR003588; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 17:37:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 17:37:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <007e01c5d50d$c70daae0$a4b1e118 D54BYG11> Reply-To: "John Coviello" From: "John Coviello" To: "Vortex" Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jed_Predicting_a_=22gradual_extinction=22_of_Cold_Fusion=3F?= Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 20:32:39 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_007B_01C5D4EC.3F6CEA40" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-From: johnwc patmedia.net Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63917 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_007B_01C5D4EC.3F6CEA40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >From the Salt Lake New Article: Though a believer, Rothwell has no hope for cold fusion, predicting = "gradual extinction" as aging cold fusionists die. He expects this = November's 12th international cold fusion conference in Shizuoka, Japan, = will be the last.=20 ------------------------------------------------ Jed, Did they quote you correctly? Are you really that cynical about = cold fusion? That is pretty stark the way they portrayed you. Do you = really think ICCF-12 will be the last? I doubt that. It seems as if = the ICCF conferences are getting more popular, attracting a little more = mainstream attention, and now with an official sponser the ICMNS, = unlikely to fade away now that there is an organization behind it. Also, there were some good tidbits in that article. The Univ of Utah = President from 1989 is basically a believer in cold fusion even though = he didn't come out and say it (100s of replications), interesting. = Brown and Tom are trying to scale up cold fusion. An excellent idea. = Two more researchers I never heard of working on cold fusion. Sounds = like they want to prove it once and for all. George is trying to = commericialize. ------=_NextPart_000_007B_01C5D4EC.3F6CEA40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

From the Salt Lake New Article:

Though a believer, Rothwell has no hope for cold fusion, predicting = =93gradual=20 extinction=94 as aging cold fusionists die. He expects this November=92s = 12th=20 international cold fusion conference in Shizuoka, Japan, will be the = last.

------------------------------------------------

Jed,  Did they quote you correctly?  Are you really that = cynical=20 about cold fusion?  That is pretty stark the way they portrayed = you. =20 Do you really think ICCF-12 will be the last?  I doubt that.  = It seems=20 as if the ICCF conferences are getting more popular, attracting a little = more=20 mainstream attention, and now with an official sponser the ICMNS, = unlikely to=20 fade away now that there is an organization behind it.

Also, there were some good tidbits in that article.  The Univ of = Utah=20 President from 1989 is basically a believer in cold fusion even though = he didn't=20 come out and say it (100s of replications), interesting.  Brown and = Tom are=20 trying to scale up cold fusion.  An excellent idea.  Two more=20 researchers I never heard of working on cold fusion.  Sounds like = they want=20 to prove it once and for all.  George is trying to = commericialize.

 

 

 

------=_NextPart_000_007B_01C5D4EC.3F6CEA40-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 19 18:19:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9K1JATx002124; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 18:19:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9K1J9dC002104; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 18:19:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 18:19:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <017401c5d514$36ed22e0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051019151644.0454aaf0 pop.mindspring.com> <010801c5d4ef$0e7b21b0$6401a8c0@NuDell> Subject: Imagining the FFF(TM) future-fuel-farm Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 18:18:44 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0171_01C5D4D9.8A2094F0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63918 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0171_01C5D4D9.8A2094F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Below are the headlines that got me originally thinking about a floating = nuclear-powered ethanol + fertilizer plant ...but the FFF may be one F = too short for US aggies. "Russia to Build World's First Floating Nuclear Power Station for = $200,000" http://www.mosnews.com/money/2005/09/09/floatingnuclearplant.shtml Obviously the real numbers could not be 'that' low, but it does = demonstrate that there is likely to be an affordable window of = opportunity somewhere, using the expertise of the whole world to create = a sustainable liquid fuel. Recently the idea of using this kind of smaller capacity fission plant, = in tandem with a combined fertilizer plant, fermentation plant, and an = ethanol distillation unit seemed even more interesting - 4 floating = factories anchored in a freshwater delta area - but where to locate it?=20 Not in the USA - no way - that would take a decade for the regulators to = make up their mind, and big-oil would never allow this kind of = competition anyway. Nope - somewhere a) sunny, 2) wet 3) poor 4) no-oil interests 4) and = with officials who can be easily bought(oops, I mean persuaded)....to = act hastily for the good of all concerned. Is there any better site than about 50 miles up in the river delta area = of some large equatorial river, where biomass can be grown, harvested, = fermented, and distilled using waste heat from safe nuclear reactors - = combined with the capability of making massive amounts of nitrogen based = fertilizer, to make the whole endeavor sustainable? Several synergies are possible here - =20 1) A muddy and heavily polluted river is preferable, so long as the = "pollution" is algae-based not chemical toxins - as green algae and = suspended clay are the perfect feedstock for carrying added nitrogen, = and can be converted cheaply into a most excellent fertilizer. High = yields will be all but guaranteed - plus you can then claim that your = are cleaning up the river - and plus - the algae will really bloom with = the added reactor heat. 2) even before the excess heat is used to create the algae bloom, it is = used to distill the ethanol from bio-mash - so that no combustion is = necessary. All the energy used is either nuclear or ethanol based and = local. 3) Converted ocean firefighter pumpers can be used to spray the (moated) = fields of e-grass with lots of fertilizer, following every cutting, = maybe three cutting per year, which can also be accomplished from = floating harvester barges - all of these being ethanol powered, of = course, with converted gasoline engines. Anybody know where to raise about a quarter-billion to finance this = baby? Five year payback (following completion) =A1Ay, Caramba! And... 180 proof ethanol for 45 cents a gallon = guaranteed - carbon neutral - US wages paid, and only modest payola back = to government officials ;-). May have to peddle the stuff in Europe = however, unless the US drops the tariff Jones ------=_NextPart_000_0171_01C5D4D9.8A2094F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Below are the headlines that got me = originally=20 thinking about a floating nuclear-powered ethanol + fertilizer = plant ...but=20 the FFF may be one F too short for US aggies.
 
"Russia to Build World=92s First = Floating Nuclear=20 Power Station for $200,000"
http://www.mosnews.com/money/2005/09/09/floatingnuclearplant.sht= ml
 
Obviously the real numbers could = not be 'that'=20 low, but it does demonstrate that there is likely to be an affordable = window of=20 opportunity somewhere, using the expertise of the whole world to create = a=20 sustainable liquid fuel.
 
Recently the idea of using this kind of = smaller=20 capacity fission plant, in tandem with a combined fertilizer plant, = fermentation=20 plant, and an ethanol distillation unit seemed even more = interesting - 4=20 floating factories anchored in a freshwater delta area - but where to = locate it?=20
 
Not in the USA - no way - that would = take a decade=20 for the regulators to make up their mind, and big-oil would never allow = this=20 kind of competition anyway.
 
Nope - somewhere a) sunny, 2) wet 3) = poor=20 4) no-oil interests 4) and with officials who can be easily=20 bought(oops, I mean persuaded)....to act hastily for the good of all=20 concerned.
 
Is there any better site than about 50 = miles up in=20 the river delta area of some large equatorial river, where biomass can = be grown,=20 harvested, fermented, and distilled using waste heat from safe nuclear = reactors=20 - combined with the capability of making massive amounts of nitrogen = based=20 fertilizer, to make the whole endeavor sustainable?
 
Several synergies are possible = here=20 -
 
1) A muddy and heavily polluted = river is=20 preferable, so long as the "pollution" is algae-based not chemical = toxins -=20 as green algae and suspended clay are the perfect feedstock for carrying = added=20 nitrogen, and can be converted cheaply into a most excellent=20 fertilizer. High yields will be all but guaranteed - plus = you can=20 then claim that your are cleaning up the river - and plus - the = algae will=20 really bloom with the added reactor heat.
 
2) even before the excess heat is used = to create=20 the algae bloom, it is used to distill the ethanol from bio-mash - so = that no=20 combustion is necessary. All the energy used is either nuclear or = ethanol based=20 and local.
 
3) Converted ocean firefighter pumpers = can be used=20 to spray the (moated) fields of e-grass with lots of fertilizer, = following every=20 cutting, maybe three cutting per year, which can also be accomplished = from=20 floating harvester barges - all of these being ethanol powered, of = course, with=20 converted gasoline engines.
 
Anybody know where to raise about a = quarter-billion=20 to finance this baby? Five year payback (following = completion)
 
 =A1Ay,=20 Caramba!  And... 180 proof = ethanol for=20 45 cents a gallon guaranteed - carbon neutral - US wages paid, and only = modest=20 payola back to government officials ;-). May have to peddle the = stuff in=20 Europe however, unless the US drops the tariff
 
Jones
 
 
 

 
------=_NextPart_000_0171_01C5D4D9.8A2094F0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 19 18:31:21 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9K1UgqN008221; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 18:31:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9K1UenJ008192; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 18:30:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 18:30:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <4enjkv$qic6m2 mxip14a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.97,232,1125892800"; d="scan'208"; a="891689666:sNHT15396210" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: OrionWorks Organization: OrionWorks To: CC: Subject: Re: Photosynthesis upper limits are unclear Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 20:30:16 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63919 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Jones Beene" ... > However - and most importantly - the move to Aquanol need not involve American farmers at all !! should they do not wish to get involved, as there is more than enough prime land - previously deforested and now fallow - in the Amazon to supply a substitute fuel for the 4-5 quads of petroleum we are currently importing from unfriendly nations. > > Jones > I find something very disturbing about exploiting this scenario. The Amazon basin is rapidly loosing its natural forests at an alarming rate due to slash and burning techniques to help feed Brazil's growing population of hungry mouths. I realize you are saying "deforested and now fallow" land, but I fear it might end there. Soon t here will be no Amazon forests left nor any food worth growing because the basin is not designed to grow traditional crops. They will end up ruining the land for both crops or the original tropical forests. The losses are invaluable in undiscovered herbs and other exotic chemistry that could help mankind. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 19 20:06:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9K367J6027177; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 20:06:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9K365Ob027163; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 20:06:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 20:06:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Say it ain't so Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 23:13:22 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <4356A3F5.10303@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: <4356A3F5.10303 pobox.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200510192312.30770.rockcast earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63920 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Real mico-nukes are hard to produce. The article mentions the object > achieved "critical mass" -- no, not really, micro-nukes don't do that in > the conventional sense. They need to be imploded to extreme density, as > I understand it, by a perfectly shaped, very powerful trigger charge in > the form of a spherical shell of high explosive which compresses the > fissile material to extreme density, in order to get a chain reaction > going without requiring a critical mass. (Critical mass under ordinary > conditions is something on the order of 30 pounds of uranium, so says > Wikipedia, and it makes for quite a good-sized "bang" -- not "micro" at > all.) > > Research to produce really small versions of such devices would be a > major project, and IIRC it has (supposedly) not been done: the U.S. > abandoned research into battlefield nukes (which is what we're talking > about here) quite some time back because it conflicted with the tenets > of MAD. The Bush administration was going to restart said research, but > I don't know if that actually happened; a lot of people found the idea > pretty objectionable, because the existence of effective battlefield > nukes would make it too easy to escalate a conventional war into a > nuclear one. As long as the first nuclear step is a _big_ step it's > less likely that anybody will take it (or so goes the theory). > Of course you mean the MAD, the sanitized word disconnected by years of human forgetfullness from the civilization reset to cave tech that it would guarantee through mass subtraction of interdependant skills and knowledge, the real MAD, the 'Mutually Assured Destruction from the original restored ancient acronym. Really a monument to gullibility in favor of any power feigning acceptance of such a dumb idea in order to secretly practice the shepard's philosophy with hidden nukes in place of sheep. Then when the war starts and a battlefield weapon, surprise, is used to decisive effect in some battles; the second shoe drops. It is now a small step for the violating power to go to full exchange, and likely that power is well prepared to use it on hair trigger notice; but it would be a far larger step for the heretofor foolish 'peace-loving' power to go to retaliation, and the 'peace-lover' being who and what that nation and people are would not be as well prepared to do this. In fact the 'peace-loving' nation would likely up to the time of its' demise been a democracy whose people practiced 'nimby' and legal barratry to force un-needed and eventually fatal 'safeguards' on the eventual need to use its' deterrent to the extent that such deterrent was then hobbled into impotence. In this way certain holy books' precepts on inheritances of the meek are mocked, as social Darwinian determinism will prove out the survival of the fittest. Suppose we in the west think ourselves 'peace-loving' Given the above, we are not among the 'fit'. We once were, as our callous treatment of our 'First Nations Peoples' in the 'new world' attests. That history paints us now to the world as hypocritical posers no matter what we say and do. So we if caught like this will die like rats, like the Cambodians before the 'Ang-Kha- Loew', without a shred of dignity or honor; and our claims to morality will die like our liberties and our language: a plaintive whimper written in water on the currents of history. Standing Bear From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 19 22:22:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9K5MEDg021290; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 22:22:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9K5MC57021268; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 22:22:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 22:22:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=QQGWOtqI7igSEtH7FGt/mjcLgdSZGDsynNHFa6ZMAlJzELfm7v41w8K1sGdiZD8QwwYuAXnfRyO/U21dt9I0Qk1I9qRUaTfgTL2jYcZAvGdggvFjMGf/+ZhHlvUjqtAvmeSh60l7Wprh6pbnM/gN74fi2cYtxwbaofPHJ4y0N00= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 22:21:52 -0700 From: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Say it ain't so In-Reply-To: <4356A3F5.10303 pobox.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_8870_26575803.1129785712038" References: <4356A3F5.10303@pobox.com> Resent-Message-ID: <66Uj2.A.QMF.EmyVDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63921 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_8870_26575803.1129785712038 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline they ARE still researching battlefield nukes, and the elimination of fallou= t is being done by the fact that the ones being developed are ground penetrating bunker busters. make a nice glass cave thats self sealing. On 10/19/05, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > > > thomas malloy wrote: > > > My friend was going on about the Bali bomb having been a nuke. > > Nonsense, I replied, if it was, there would be radioactivity. My > > friend countered that this was a clean atom bomb. My reply was, this > > doesn't exist. Send me the URL, which he did, see > > http://joevialls.net/nuke/bali_micro_nuke.htm . The first red flag was > > Zionist plot, like the Israelis have nothing better to do than blow up > > night clubs in the pacific. > > Right, well said. > > Real mico-nukes are hard to produce. The article mentions the object > achieved "critical mass" -- no, not really, micro-nukes don't do that in > the conventional sense. They need to be imploded to extreme density, as > I understand it, by a perfectly shaped, very powerful trigger charge in > the form of a spherical shell of high explosive which compresses the > fissile material to extreme density, in order to get a chain reaction > going without requiring a critical mass. (Critical mass under ordinary > conditions is something on the order of 30 pounds of uranium, so says > Wikipedia, and it makes for quite a good-sized "bang" -- not "micro" at > all.) > > Research to produce really small versions of such devices would be a > major project, and IIRC it has (supposedly) not been done: the U.S. > abandoned research into battlefield nukes (which is what we're talking > about here) quite some time back because it conflicted with the tenets > of MAD. The Bush administration was going to restart said research, but > I don't know if that actually happened; a lot of people found the idea > pretty objectionable, because the existence of effective battlefield > nukes would make it too easy to escalate a conventional war into a > nuclear one. As long as the first nuclear step is a _big_ step it's > less likely that anybody will take it (or so goes the theory). > > As to radiation, it's really unclear how you'd go about eliminating the > radiation burst when the bomb goes off. Like, really, _really_ > unclear. It's also unclear how you eliminate _all_ fallout, which is > necessary if you are to fool everyone into thinking it wasn't a nuclear > explosive when they examine the site afterwards. I mean, what's the > uranium/plutonium/whatnot turn into that's totally non-radioactive? > Breaks all the way down into iron, maybe? Hmmm... > > But really, you said it all, up top: Anyone who starts by asserting > this is a "Zionist plot" is already lost in the weeds and I think we can > disregard the rest of the page, because that initial assertion makes no > sense. > > > > > > > -- "Monsieur l'abb=E9, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to ma= ke it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire ------=_Part_8870_26575803.1129785712038 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline they ARE still researching battlefield nukes, and the elimination of fallou= t is being done by the fact that the ones being developed are ground penetr= ating bunker busters.  make a nice glass cave thats self sealing. = ;

On 10/19/05, Stephen A. Lawrence <salaw@pobox= .com> wrote:


thomas malloy wrote:
=
> My friend was going on about the Bali bomb having been a nuke.
> Nonsense, I replied, if it was, there would be radioactivity. My
&g= t; friend countered that this was a clean atom bomb. My reply was, this
= > doesn't exist. Send me the URL, which he did, see
> http://joevialls.net/nuke/bali_micro_nuke.htm . The first red flag was<= br>> Zionist plot, like the Israelis have nothing better to do than blow= up
> night clubs in the pacific.

Right, well said.

Real mico-nukes are hard to produce.  The article mentions the ob= ject
achieved "critical mass" -- no, not really, micro-nukes d= on't do that in
the conventional sense.  They need to be implo= ded to extreme density, as
I understand it, by a perfectly shaped, very powerful trigger charge in=
the form of a spherical shell of high explosive which compresses thefissile material to extreme density, in order to get a chain reaction
going without requiring a critical mass.  (Critical mass under or= dinary
conditions is something on the order of 30 pounds of uranium, so = says
Wikipedia, and it makes for quite a good-sized "bang" -- = not "micro" at
all.)

Research to produce really small versions of such devices = would be a
major project, and IIRC it has (supposedly) not been done: th= e U.S.
abandoned research into battlefield nukes (which is what we're ta= lking
about here) quite some time back because it conflicted with the tenets<= br>of MAD.  The Bush administration was going to restart said res= earch, but
I don't know if that actually happened; a lot of people found= the idea
pretty objectionable, because the existence of effective battlefieldnukes would make it too easy to escalate a conventional war into a
nucl= ear one.  As long as the first nuclear step is a _big_ step it's<= br>less likely that anybody will take it (or so goes the theory).

As to radiation, it's really unclear how you'd go about eliminating= the
radiation burst when the bomb goes off.  Like, really, _r= eally_
unclear.  It's also unclear how you eliminate _all_ fal= lout, which is
necessary if you are to fool everyone into thinking it wasn't a nuclear
= explosive when they examine the site afterwards.  I mean, what's = the
uranium/plutonium/whatnot turn into that's totally non-radioactive?<= br>Breaks all the way down into iron, maybe?  Hmmm...

But really, you said it all, up top:  Anyone who starts b= y asserting
this is a "Zionist plot" is already lost in the we= eds and I think we can
disregard the rest of the page, because that init= ial assertion makes no
sense.

>
>




--
"Monsieur l'abb=E9, I detest what you write, but I woul= d give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" =  Voltaire=20 ------=_Part_8870_26575803.1129785712038-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 19 22:43:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9K5gxep032742; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 22:43:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9K5gv8P032711; Wed, 19 Oct 2005 22:42:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 22:42:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 01:40:08 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Say it ain't so In-reply-to: To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_C7vhdXwMarV8fRcQSA+ZXg)" User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63922 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --Boundary_(ID_C7vhdXwMarV8fRcQSA+ZXg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Such technology may be useful for diverting large asteroids on a collisions course with earth. Harry leaking pen wrote: they ARE still researching battlefield nukes, and the elimination of fallout is being done by the fact that the ones being developed are ground penetrating bunker busters. make a nice glass cave thats self sealing. On 10/19/05, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: thomas malloy wrote: > My friend was going on about the Bali bomb having been a nuke. > Nonsense, I replied, if it was, there would be radioactivity. My > friend countered that this was a clean atom bomb. My reply was, this > doesn't exist. Send me the URL, which he did, see > http://joevialls.net/nuke/bali_micro_nuke.htm . The first red flag was > Zionist plot, like the Israelis have nothing better to do than blow up > night clubs in the pacific. Right, well said. Real mico-nukes are hard to produce. The article mentions the object achieved "critical mass" -- no, not really, micro-nukes don't do that in the conventional sense. They need to be imploded to extreme density, as I understand it, by a perfectly shaped, very powerful trigger charge in the form of a spherical shell of high explosive which compresses the fissile material to extreme density, in order to get a chain reaction going without requiring a critical mass. (Critical mass under ordinary conditions is something on the order of 30 pounds of uranium, so says Wikipedia, and it makes for quite a good-sized "bang" -- not "micro" at all.) Research to produce really small versions of such devices would be a major project, and IIRC it has (supposedly) not been done: the U.S. abandoned research into battlefield nukes (which is what we're talking about here) quite some time back because it conflicted with the tenets of MAD. The Bush administration was going to restart said research, but I don't know if that actually happened; a lot of people found the idea pretty objectionable, because the existence of effective battlefield nukes would make it too easy to escalate a conventional war into a nuclear one. As long as the first nuclear step is a _big_ step it's less likely that anybody will take it (or so goes the theory). As to radiation, it's really unclear how you'd go about eliminating the radiation burst when the bomb goes off. Like, really, _really_ unclear. It's also unclear how you eliminate _all_ fallout, which is necessary if you are to fool everyone into thinking it wasn't a nuclear explosive when they examine the site afterwards. I mean, what's the uranium/plutonium/whatnot turn into that's totally non-radioactive? Breaks all the way down into iron, maybe? Hmmm... But really, you said it all, up top: Anyone who starts by asserting this is a "Zionist plot" is already lost in the weeds and I think we can disregard the rest of the page, because that initial assertion makes no sense. > > --Boundary_(ID_C7vhdXwMarV8fRcQSA+ZXg) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Re: Say it ain't so Such technology may be useful for diverting large asteroids on a collisions course with earth.
Harry

leaking pen wrote:

they ARE still researching battlefield nukes, and the elimination of fallout is being done by the fact that the ones being developed are ground penetrating bunker busters.  make a nice glass cave thats self sealing.  

On 10/19/05, Stephen A. Lawrence <salaw pobox.com> wrote:


thomas malloy wrote:

> My friend was going on about the Bali bomb having been a nuke.
> Nonsense, I replied, if it was, there would be radioactivity. My
> friend countered that this was a clean atom bomb. My reply was, this
> doesn't exist. Send me the URL, which he did, see
> http://joevialls.net/nuke/bali_micro_nuke.htm . The first red flag was
> Zionist plot, like the Israelis have nothing better to do than blow up
> night clubs in the pacific.

Right, well said.

Real mico-nukes are hard to produce.  The article mentions the object
achieved "critical mass" -- no, not really, micro-nukes don't do that in
the conventional sense.  They need to be imploded to extreme density, as
I understand it, by a perfectly shaped, very powerful trigger charge in
the form of a spherical shell of high explosive which compresses the
fissile material to extreme density, in order to get a chain reaction
going without requiring a critical mass.  (Critical mass under ordinary
conditions is something on the order of 30 pounds of uranium, so says
Wikipedia, and it makes for quite a good-sized "bang" -- not "micro" at
all.)

Research to produce really small versions of such devices would be a
major project, and IIRC it has (supposedly) not been done: the U.S.
abandoned research into battlefield nukes (which is what we're talking
about here) quite some time back because it conflicted with the tenets
of MAD.  The Bush administration was going to restart said research, but
I don't know if that actually happened; a lot of people found the idea
pretty objectionable, because the existence of effective battlefield
nukes would make it too easy to escalate a conventional war into a
nuclear one.  As long as the first nuclear step is a _big_ step it's
less likely that anybody will take it (or so goes the theory).

As to radiation, it's really unclear how you'd go about eliminating the
radiation burst when the bomb goes off.  Like, really, _really_
unclear.  It's also unclear how you eliminate _all_ fallout, which is
necessary if you are to fool everyone into thinking it wasn't a nuclear
explosive when they examine the site afterwards.  I mean, what's the
uranium/plutonium/whatnot turn into that's totally non-radioactive?
Breaks all the way down into iron, maybe?  Hmmm...

But really, you said it all, up top:  Anyone who starts by asserting
this is a "Zionist plot" is already lost in the weeds and I think we can
disregard the rest of the page, because that initial assertion makes no
sense.

>
>




--Boundary_(ID_C7vhdXwMarV8fRcQSA+ZXg)-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 20 00:32:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9K7Vx6e014923; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 00:32:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9K7VvwB014910; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 00:31:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 00:31:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200510192312.30770.rockcast earthlink.net> References: <4356A3F5.10303 pobox.com> <200510192312.30770.rockcast@earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 02:31:43 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: Say it ain't so Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63923 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Standing Bear responded; > > Real mico-nukes are hard to produce. The article mentions the object > > the conventional sense. They need to be imploded to extreme density, as A small atom bomb is an oxymoron, as is a clean atom bomb. As I recall, critical mass is in the 22 KG range, so if 15 KG could be made to go critical, that would be relatively speaking small. Only a small percentage of the radioneuclide is fissioned in the event however, the rest is atomized, and would make the surrounding area glow in the dark, to use a common metaphor. Steven Lawrence responded; As to radiation, it's really unclear how you'd go about eliminating the radiation burst when the bomb goes off. Like, really, _really_ unclear. It's also unclear how you eliminate _all_ fallout, Simple, you use a chemical explosive, no radioneuclides, no radioactivity. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 20 00:57:21 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9K7upEB024481; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 00:57:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9K7uoYU024470; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 00:56:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 00:56:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 09:56:27 +0200 (CEST) From: Mathias Bage X-X-Sender: mathias viggo To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Photosynthesis upper limits are unclear In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20051019182029.044502f0 pop.mindspring.com> Message-ID: References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051019151644.0454aaf0 pop.mindspring.com> <010801c5d4ef$0e7b21b0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051019170410.044f3470@pop.mindspring.com> <012301c5d4fa$9daf21a0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051019182029.044502f0@pop.mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63924 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 19 Oct 2005, Jed Rothwell wrote: > Jones Beene wrote: > >>> Not with the U.S. diet. We eat a tremendous amount of meat, and this takes >>> 10 times more starting plant food (mainly cattle feed). >> >> Wrong (partially). We do eat too much meat here but not more than Europe, >> where the 1/4 acre standard has been in place for a long time - and it only >> takes 10 times more land IF you allow predominantly open-grazing . . . > > It does not take 10 times more land. It takes 10 times more starting plant > food, mainly corn which is fed to cows. As you note, corn grows very densely > in North America, whereas most nutritious vegetable food and wheat for people > takes more space. > > (Incidentally, corn is a terrible thing to feed to a cow. Cows are not > evolved to eat corn, and it causes terrible stomach upsets, misery and > disease which can only be treated with massive amounts of antibiotics, which > is causing yet another crisis.) Recent research show that cows given mostly grain and protein-rich fodder yeilds a more unhealthy milk, causing more heart disease in humans. Don't know about the meat, though. Cows are adapted to *GRAZING*. >[snip] > > - Jed > /Mathias From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 20 01:02:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9K82Cre026894; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 01:02:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9K829Dh026862; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 01:02:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 01:02:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=h/Pf5boiFyWa5mi90vDlyq6UZa1XM5VTqqw3rsHciLUwydvll86/MCh9/lnV2lWEnaK1wtwgG6QaCQ83UBfFiLio43+Njg0Dq4Lk6rdyLVR2EGvg6aSORTFm0S4Uhh8R8CzpyH8DWGrA4wUq1G4Xih5mwmlIbBW9YbWfB/V4R/w= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 01:01:53 -0700 From: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Say it ain't so In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_9402_5509248.1129795313542" References: <4356A3F5.10303@pobox.com> <200510192312.30770.rockcast earthlink.net> Resent-Message-ID: <3suUDB.A.qjG.B80VDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63925 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_9402_5509248.1129795313542 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline thomas, the point is that, in a manner similar to a standard uranium bomb, as opposed to a plutonium, that goes critical mass just by being there, an explosive is used to create a shockwave that increases density as it passes= . the reason behind critical mass is absorbtion of enough of the neutrons by other atoms, splitting them as well and sending more energetic neutrons out into the mass. by making the metal more dense, you accomplish this. theoretically, if you were to toss a gram size chunk of u-235 into a black hole, at some point it would become dense enough to go critical mass. On 10/20/05, thomas malloy wrote: > > Standing Bear responded; > > > > Real mico-nukes are hard to produce. The article mentions the object > > > the conventional sense. They need to be imploded to extreme density, > as > > A small atom bomb is an oxymoron, as is a clean atom bomb. As I > recall, critical mass is in the 22 KG range, so if 15 KG could be > made to go critical, that would be relatively speaking small. Only a > small percentage of the radioneuclide is fissioned in the event > however, the rest is atomized, and would make the surrounding area > glow in the dark, to use a common metaphor. > > Steven Lawrence responded; > > As to radiation, it's really unclear how you'd go about eliminating > the radiation burst when the bomb goes off. Like, really, _really_ > unclear. It's also unclear how you eliminate _all_ fallout, > > Simple, you use a chemical explosive, no radioneuclides, no radioactivity= . > > -- "Monsieur l'abb=E9, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to ma= ke it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire ------=_Part_9402_5509248.1129795313542 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline thomas, the point is that, in a manner similar to a standard uranium bomb, = as opposed to a plutonium, that goes critical mass just by being there, an = explosive is used to create a shockwave that increases density as it passes= .  the reason behind critical mass is absorbtion of enough of the neut= rons by other atoms, splitting them as well and sending more energetic neut= rons out into the mass.  by making the metal more dense, you accomplis= h this.  theoretically, if you were to toss a gram size chunk of u-235= into a black hole, at some point it would become dense enough to go critic= al mass.=20

On 10/20/05, thomas malloy <temalloy= metro.lakes.com> wrote:
Standing Bear responded;

= >  > Real mico-nukes are hard to produce.  The ar= ticle mentions the object
>  > the conventional sense.  They need to be= imploded to extreme density, as

A small atom bomb is an oxymoron, a= s is a clean atom bomb. As I
recall, critical mass is in the 22 KG range= , so if 15 KG could be
made to go critical, that would be relatively speaking small. Only asmall percentage of the radioneuclide is fissioned in the event
however= , the rest is atomized, and would make the surrounding area
glow in the = dark, to use a common metaphor.

Steven Lawrence responded;

As to radiation, it's really uncl= ear how you'd go about eliminating
the radiation burst when the bomb goe= s off.  Like, really, _really_
unclear.  It's also u= nclear how you eliminate _all_ fallout,

Simple, you use a chemical explosive, no radioneuclides, no radioac= tivity.




--
"Mo= nsieur l'abb=E9, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make = it possible for you to continue to write"  Voltaire=20 ------=_Part_9402_5509248.1129795313542-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 20 01:05:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9K854Ej028460; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 01:05:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9K852PK028441; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 01:05:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 01:05:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=OhdSUrEtHcn2L6uOiZscnt9wRyo8QKzuJzCOKgGMF1t0Kqxr829r0mEibMC0ah1W+bMEpaWK1Zx98vrVL/HYsjTkFQ5JyAP62Sa7I0TO54kKzNuLrZ6v+w3b61PUxKapvCkEdKeUapH5FXm2cUec0p3jFUPJj4bucJejYAJXD9w= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 01:04:43 -0700 From: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Say it ain't so In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_9434_16258286.1129795483241" References: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63926 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_9434_16258286.1129795483241 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline only if, by using the shockwave that generates critM, one could channel the explosion in the direction you wanted. and honestly, high g high jerk low moment of force is not the way to move large bodies. lower g and jerk, long pushes. a small nuclear reactor designed to chew up, melt, and spit away as a jet trail the metal and rock of the asteroid itself would work better. an explosive would likely just be absorbed and cause the rock to shatter. On 10/19/05, Harry Veeder wrote: > > Such technology may be useful for diverting large asteroids on a > collisions course with earth. > Harry > > leaking pen wrote: > > they ARE still researching battlefield nukes, and the elimination of > fallout is being done by the fact that the ones being developed are groun= d > penetrating bunker busters. make a nice glass cave thats self sealing. > > On 10/19/05, *Stephen A. Lawrence* wrote: > > > > thomas malloy wrote: > > > My friend was going on about the Bali bomb having been a nuke. > > Nonsense, I replied, if it was, there would be radioactivity. My > > friend countered that this was a clean atom bomb. My reply was, this > > doesn't exist. Send me the URL, which he did, see > > http://joevialls.net/nuke/bali_micro_nuke.htm . The first red flag was > > Zionist plot, like the Israelis have nothing better to do than blow up > > night clubs in the pacific. > > Right, well said. > > Real mico-nukes are hard to produce. The article mentions the object > achieved "critical mass" -- no, not really, micro-nukes don't do that in > the conventional sense. They need to be imploded to extreme density, as > I understand it, by a perfectly shaped, very powerful trigger charge in > the form of a spherical shell of high explosive which compresses the > fissile material to extreme density, in order to get a chain reaction > going without requiring a critical mass. (Critical mass under ordinary > conditions is something on the order of 30 pounds of uranium, so says > Wikipedia, and it makes for quite a good-sized "bang" -- not "micro" at > all.) > > Research to produce really small versions of such devices would be a > major project, and IIRC it has (supposedly) not been done: the U.S. > abandoned research into battlefield nukes (which is what we're talking > about here) quite some time back because it conflicted with the tenets > of MAD. The Bush administration was going to restart said research, but > I don't know if that actually happened; a lot of people found the idea > pretty objectionable, because the existence of effective battlefield > nukes would make it too easy to escalate a conventional war into a > nuclear one. As long as the first nuclear step is a _big_ step it's > less likely that anybody will take it (or so goes the theory). > > As to radiation, it's really unclear how you'd go about eliminating the > radiation burst when the bomb goes off. Like, really, _really_ > unclear. It's also unclear how you eliminate _all_ fallout, which is > necessary if you are to fool everyone into thinking it wasn't a nuclear > explosive when they examine the site afterwards. I mean, what's the > uranium/plutonium/whatnot turn into that's totally non-radioactive? > Breaks all the way down into iron, maybe? Hmmm... > > But really, you said it all, up top: Anyone who starts by asserting > this is a "Zionist plot" is already lost in the weeds and I think we can > disregard the rest of the page, because that initial assertion makes no > sense. > > > > > > > > > > -- "Monsieur l'abb=E9, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to ma= ke it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire ------=_Part_9434_16258286.1129795483241 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline only if, by using the shockwave that generates critM, one could channel the= explosion in the direction you wanted.  and honestly, high g high jer= k low moment of force is not the way to move large bodies.  lower g an= d jerk, long pushes.  a small nuclear reactor designed to chew up, mel= t, and spit away as a jet trail the metal and rock of the asteroid itself w= ould work better.   an explosive would likely just be absorbed an= d cause the rock to shatter.=20

On 10/19/05, Harry Veeder <eo200@fr= eenet.carleton.ca> wrote:
Such technology may be useful fo= r diverting large asteroids on a collisions course with earth.
Harry=20


leaking pen wrot= e:

they ARE still researching battlefield nukes, and the eliminati= on of fallout is being done by the fact that the ones being developed are g= round penetrating bunker busters.  make a nice glass cave thats self s= ealing.  

On 10/19/05, Stephen A. Lawrence <salaw pobox.com> wrote:


thomas malloy wrote:

> My friend was going on= about the Bali bomb having been a nuke.
> Nonsense, I replied, if it= was, there would be radioactivity. My
> friend countered that this w= as a clean atom bomb. My reply was, this
> doesn't exist. Send me the URL, which he did, see
> http://joevialls.net/nuke= /bali_micro_nuke.htm . The first red flag was
> Zionist plot, like the Israelis have = nothing better to do than blow up
> night clubs in the pacific.
Right, well said.

Real mico-nukes are hard to produce.  The a= rticle mentions the object
achieved "critical mass" -- no, not really, micro-nukes don't= do that in
the conventional sense.  They need to be imploded to ex= treme density, as
I understand it, by a perfectly shaped, very powerful= trigger charge in
the form of a spherical shell of high explosive which compresses thefissile material to extreme density, in order to get a chain reaction
g= oing without requiring a critical mass.  (Critical mass under ordinary=
conditions is something on the order of 30 pounds of uranium, so says
Wi= kipedia, and it makes for quite a good-sized "bang" -- not "= micro" at
all.)

Research to produce really small versions o= f such devices would be a
major project, and IIRC it has (supposedly) not been done: the U.S.
= abandoned research into battlefield nukes (which is what we're talking
= about here) quite some time back because it conflicted with the tenets
of MAD.  The Bush administration was going to restart said research, b= ut
I don't know if that actually happened; a lot of people found the ide= a
pretty objectionable, because the existence of effective battlefield<= br> nukes would make it too easy to escalate a conventional war into a
nucle= ar one.  As long as the first nuclear step is a _big_ step it's
les= s likely that anybody will take it (or so goes the theory).

As to r= adiation, it's really unclear how you'd go about eliminating the
radiation burst when the bomb goes off.  Like, really, _really_unclear.  It's also unclear how you eliminate _all_ fallout, which is=
necessary if you are to fool everyone into thinking it wasn't a nuclear=
explosive when they examine the site afterwards.  I mean, what's t= he
uranium/plutonium/whatnot turn into that's totally non-radioactive?
= Breaks all the way down into iron, maybe?  Hmmm...

But really,= you said it all, up top:  Anyone who starts by asserting
this is a= "Zionist plot" is already lost in the weeds and I think we can
disregard the rest of the page, because that initial assertion makes no=
sense.

>
>






--
"Mo= nsieur l'abb=E9, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make = it possible for you to continue to write"  Voltaire=20 ------=_Part_9434_16258286.1129795483241-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 20 01:41:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9K8el6J010348; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 01:41:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9K8c54P009200; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 01:38:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 01:38:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20051020083743982.EFB8F800008A mwinf3214.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20051020083745.0093bfc8 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 09:37:45 +0100 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: The Wilma vortex Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63927 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sun, 25 September I wrote, http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l eskimo.com/msg08503.html ==================================================== "In terms of the Alpha-atmosphere one can visualise a small vortex in the middle of the Atlantic which triggers a larger vortex which in turn triggers an even larger vortex, etc., etc., until we finish up with hurricane Wilma wrecking the town of Houston." ==================================================== I couldn't have hit on a better hurricane to illustrate the point. Let's hope I was wrong about Houston. ;-) Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 20 04:52:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9KBq8YA028818; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 04:52:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9KBq6c9028795; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 04:52:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 04:52:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=ONIbOqwlbC8aRjg7jv082uWaNeImmOHOicuoamCeC4eI+Vuz0ZVkrwFJ9ZlWeb5O; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200510420105142640 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Positronium in Metastable Deuterons? Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 05:51:42 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940ab7644bd2fcbd6a62845b0927defc64d350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.245 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63928 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Posted earlier: > > I'll stick my neck out further yet, and claim that a direct hit of a Proton by a Gamma Photon > with energy equal to ( or ) greater than 1.02 MeV can create a Permanent Pair "Inside" The Proton > without altering it's Mass, Charge, or Spin, but only it's Radius. > Three "Quark" ( three disk/loop) Proton, 936 Mev mass/energy: - - - - - -> +e spin 1/2 cw 312 MeV Initial R = kq^2/E = 1.55e-18 <- - - - - - -e spin 1/2 ccw 312 MeV - - - - - -> + e spin 1/2 cw 312 MeV Net Charge + e Net Spin 1/2 cw 936 MeV Magnetic Moment, e*hbar/2M 1.02 Mev - 2.0 MeV Gamma Photon Internally-Created Positronium Pair: - - - - - -> +e spin 1/2 cw 0.510 MeV Initial R = kq^2/E = 2.82e-15 <- - - - - - -e spin 1/2 ccw 0.510 MeV Net Charge 0.0 Net Spin 0.0 1.02 MeV Combined Proton Positronium, Five "Quark" Proton: - - - - -> +e Spin 1/2 cw 200 MeV Final R = kq^2/E = 7.2e-18 <- - - - - -e Spin 1/2 ccw 200 MeV - - - - -> +e Spin 1/2 cw 200 MeV <- - - - - -e Spin 1/2 ccw 156 MeV Final R = kq^2/E = 9.23e-18 - - - - -> +e Spin 1/2 cw 156 MeV Net Charge +e Net Spin 1/2 cw 936 MeV Magnetic Moment, e*hbar/2M Same game for the Neutron-Deuteron. As I see it, the more you smash them together in a super collider the more quarks you get. :-) Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Posted earlier:
>
> I'll stick my neck out further yet, and claim that a direct hit of a Proton by a Gamma Photon
> with energy equal to ( or ) greater than 1.02 MeV can create a Permanent Pair "Inside" The Proton
> without altering it's Mass, Charge, or Spin, but only it's Radius.
>
Three "Quark" ( three disk/loop) Proton, 936 Mev mass/energy:
 
- - - - - -> +e  spin 1/2  cw    312 MeV   Initial R = kq^2/E = 1.55e-18
<- - - - - -  -e  spin 1/2 ccw   312 MeV
- - - - - -> + e  spin 1/2 cw     312 MeV
 
Net Charge + e Net Spin 1/2 cw  936 MeV  Magnetic Moment, e*hbar/2M
 
1.02 Mev -  2.0 MeV Gamma Photon Internally-Created Positronium Pair:
 
- - - - - ->  +e spin 1/2 cw   0.510 MeV    Initial R = kq^2/E = 2.82e-15
<- - - - - -  -e  spin 1/2 ccw 0.510 MeV
 
Net Charge 0.0  Net Spin 0.0   1.02  MeV
 
Combined Proton Positronium, Five "Quark" Proton:
 
- - - - ->  +e Spin 1/2 cw  200 MeV      Final R = kq^2/E = 7.2e-18
<- - - - -   -e Spin 1/2 ccw  200 MeV
- - - - ->  +e Spin 1/2  cw   200 MeV
<- - - - -  -e  Spin 1/2  ccw  156 MeV   Final R = kq^2/E = 9.23e-18
- - - - -> +e  Spin 1/2  cw     156 MeV
 
Net Charge +e  Net Spin 1/2 cw  936 MeV  Magnetic Moment, e*hbar/2M
 
Same game for the Neutron-Deuteron.
 
As I see it, the more you smash them together in a super collider
the more quarks you get.  :-)
 
Frederick
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 20 05:05:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9KC5Q9x003200; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 05:05:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9KC5PPS003174; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 05:05:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 05:05:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <2b2034c7-1e4d-4613-b28d-2a1444a7f89d> Message-ID: <001501c5d56e$795660b0$6a5bccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <4enjkv$qic6m2 mxip14a.cluster1.charter.net> Subject: Re: Photosynthesis upper limits are unclear Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 08:03:35 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63929 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "OrionWorks" Subject: Re: Photosynthesis upper limits are unclear > I find something very disturbing about exploiting this scenario. The Amazon basin is rapidly loosing its natural forests at an alarming rate due to slash and burning techniques to help feed Brazil's growing population of hungry mouths. > > I realize you are saying "deforested and now fallow" land, but I fear it might end there. > > Soon t here will be no Amazon forests left nor any food worth growing because the basin is not designed to grow traditional crops. They will end up ruining the land for both crops or the original tropical forests. > > The losses are invaluable in undiscovered herbs and other exotic chemistry that could help mankind. ------------------------------ The Amazon rain forests are being depleted as a result of policies of the Brazilian government to encourage settlement by farmers hopeful to 'develop' the land by farming it, as US homesteaders did a century or more ago. The catch is that the nutrients are in the forest canopy, not the earth. Slash and burn gives a year or two of crops, then the land is exhausted and the farmer moves on. The US heartland had rich soil feet deep, somlething that exists or existed in only a few parts of the world. Humans have eaten themselves out of house and home in various parts of the world through short-sighted policies, Easter Island being a notable but not the only example. Read Jared Diamond's book "Collapse". Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 20 05:40:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9KCdfM1018885; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 05:39:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9KCdc4J018845; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 05:39:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 05:39:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000e01c5d573$462125e0$6f027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: The Wilma Vortex Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 07:39:11 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01C5D549.5CC32930" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.5 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,HTML_40_50,HTML_MESSAGE,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63930 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C5D549.5CC32930 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000B_01C5D549.5CC32930" ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C5D549.5CC32930 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankGrimer wrote... "In terms of the Alpha-atmosphere one can visualise a=20 small vortex in the middle of the Atlantic which=20 triggers a larger vortex which in turn triggers an=20 even larger vortex, etc., etc., until we finish up=20 with hurricane Wilma wrecking the town of Houston." Frank, Pull up the sat views halfway down the page taken by GOES-12 http://www.nasa.gov/vision/earth/lookingatearth/h2005_wilma.html Look closely at the huge spirals imbedded in the northeast quadrant of = the hurricane cloud. These are tornados so incredibly large they could = be classified as hurricanes within hurricanes. I couldn't relocate the = sat view of a different hurricane taken at at angle that showed as many = as 20 spirals in the NE quandrant. Our tests in a clear glass tank demonstrate these vortices are being = shed constantly. The intensity of the vortices are increased when we run = the speed up past 5000RPM. One transient spinoff veered off horizontal = and clung to the bottom of the glass tank for some 3 seconds before = decay. I have considered the reason why CF is so difficult to reproduce may be = because of physical orientation of the test.=20 Richard ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C5D549.5CC32930 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Grimer wrote...

 "In terms of the Alpha-atmosphere one can visualise a=20
     small vortex in the middle of the Atlantic = which=20
     triggers a larger vortex which in turn = triggers an=20
     even larger vortex, etc., etc., until we = finish up=20
     with hurricane Wilma wrecking the town of=20 Houston."

 Frank,

Pull up the sat views halfway down the page taken by GOES-12


http://www.nasa.gov/vision/earth/lookingatearth/h2005_wilma.html

=

Look closely at the huge spirals imbedded in the northeast quadrant = of the=20 hurricane cloud. These are tornados so incredibly large they could be = classified=20 as hurricanes within hurricanes. I couldn't relocate the sat view = of a=20 different hurricane taken at at angle that showed as many as 20 = spirals in=20 the NE quandrant.

Our tests in a clear glass tank demonstrate these vortices are being = shed=20 constantly. The intensity of the vortices are increased when we run the = speed up=20 past 5000RPM. One transient spinoff veered off horizontal and clung to = the=20 bottom of the glass tank  for some 3 seconds before decay.

I have considered the reason why CF is so difficult to reproduce may = be=20 because of physical orientation of the test.

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C5D549.5CC32930-- ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C5D549.5CC32930 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000901c5d573$45855b10$6f027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C5D549.5CC32930-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 20 06:01:54 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9KD1QQw029781; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 06:01:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9KD1Ov2029766; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 06:01:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 06:01:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4357950C.40608 pobox.com> Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 09:01:00 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.10) Gecko/20050719 Fedora/1.7.10-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Photosynthesis upper limits are unclear References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051019151644.0454aaf0 pop.mindspring.com> <010801c5d4ef$0e7b21b0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051019170410.044f3470@pop.mindspring.com> <012301c5d4fa$9daf21a0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051019182029.044502f0@pop.mindspring.com> <015901c5d507$db2acdb0$6401a8c0@NuDell> In-Reply-To: <015901c5d507$db2acdb0$6401a8c0 NuDell> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63931 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > Jed, > > > Without fertilizer, insecticide, irrigation and other intense energy > inputs > > agricultural productivity everywhere in the world plummet. > > None of these depends on petroleum, and especially not fertilizer. > Even India exports nuclear plants using an ammonia exchange processes > for fertilizer production. It is probably the very best use of nuclear > energy since nitrogen is everywhere - and these plants are easy to > construct in the form of floating factories. > > > If we run out of oil before we find other sources of energy, the > cost of food will go sky high and agricultural productivity will fall > drastically. > > That is why we need to develop Aquanol as a replacement for oil. Now! > > Yes. It will require fertilizer. Lots of it. Megatons. > > For instance the land in the Amazon is poor. But they have plenty of > sun and water and only need lots more nitrogen in the soil. This is > the perfect place for floating nuclear powered ammonium plants. You would destroy the remaining rainforests in order to grow biofuel so we can continue to have personal transportation in this country? You've said repeatedly in other posts that our wetlands (in the United States) are currently unused, a view you apparently hold because we haven't drained them and converted them to farmland. You've explicitly suggested that the Florida everglades would be a great place to grow e-grass. Well, you may run into a bit of resistance there. Wetlands in this country are considered a valuable resource all by themselves, which you would destroy if you drained them and converted them to E-grass fields. The Federal government (yes, the current anti-environment Federal government) has been investing a lot of effort in determining how to _save_ the Everglades and restore them to what they were before the Army Core of Engineers messed things up by straightening out a river (had some unintended side effects). And you think people will stand still for a total reversal of this policy? You seriously think we should replace the Everglades with grasslands? I'd like to think I misunderstood your earlier posts. Is that not what you had in mind? > > This Amazon land can be made incredibly productive on a sustainable > basis as long as there is a big river there It already IS incredibly productive: It provides homes and sustenance for a huge fraction of the species on Earth. It just doesn't happen to be producing anything you can burn in your car. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 20 06:12:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9KDCJtS003056; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 06:12:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9KDCI3P003038; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 06:12:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 06:12:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43579792.1020200 pobox.com> Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 09:11:46 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.10) Gecko/20050719 Fedora/1.7.10-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Photosynthesis upper limits are unclear References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051019151644.0454aaf0 pop.mindspring.com> <010801c5d4ef$0e7b21b0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051019170410.044f3470@pop.mindspring.com> <012301c5d4fa$9daf21a0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051019182029.044502f0@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63932 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mathias Bage wrote: > > > On Wed, 19 Oct 2005, Jed Rothwell wrote: > >> Jones Beene wrote: >> >>>> Not with the U.S. diet. We eat a tremendous amount of meat, and >>>> this takes 10 times more starting plant food (mainly cattle feed). >>> >>> >>> Wrong (partially). We do eat too much meat here but not more than >>> Europe, where the 1/4 acre standard has been in place for a long >>> time - and it only takes 10 times more land IF you allow >>> predominantly open-grazing . . . >> >> >> It does not take 10 times more land. It takes 10 times more starting >> plant food, mainly corn which is fed to cows. As you note, corn grows >> very densely in North America, whereas most nutritious vegetable food >> and wheat for people takes more space. >> >> (Incidentally, corn is a terrible thing to feed to a cow. Cows are >> not evolved to eat corn, and it causes terrible stomach upsets, >> misery and disease which can only be treated with massive amounts of >> antibiotics, which is causing yet another crisis.) > > > Recent research show that cows given mostly grain and protein-rich > fodder yeilds a more unhealthy milk, causing more heart disease in > humans. Don't know about the meat, though. Cow's meat and cow's milk cause heart disease in humans. Some ways of raising cows make it worse, but no matter how you do it it's bad. Adjusting the diet of dairy cows to try to make them healthier to eat is like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. Heart disease, as it typically affects people in the United States, should be considered one of the stupidest diseases in history, because it can be avoided so easily. Most people don't really even need to exercise or lose weight to avoid it (though those are Good Things to do as well, of course, but most of us find them difficult): Just substitute low-saturated-fat foods for high-saturated-fat foods ... mostly, in fact, just avoid eating cows. You have the upper hand now, but in the long run, the cows will take their revenge. > > Cows are adapted to *GRAZING*. And a glance at a human's teeth is enough to show humans are better suited to a plant diet than a diet rich in cows. >> [snip] >> >> - Jed >> > > /Mathias > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 20 06:59:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9KDxDnN001767; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 06:59:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9KDxCKH001744; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 06:59:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 06:59:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] X-Originating-Email: [caliostro1795 hotmail.com] X-Sender: caliostro1795 hotmail.com In-Reply-To: From: "Alex Caliostro" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Say it ain't so Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 07:58:52 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Oct 2005 13:58:52.0704 (UTC) FILETIME=[6762A200:01C5D57E] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63933 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >From: thomas malloy >A small atom bomb is an oxymoron, as is a clean atom bomb. the best public authority on nuclear weapon design is carey sublette http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/ his web page has all you really want to know about the Bomb - read it, be the Bomb, love it and stop worrying the smallest is the w54 with a selectable yield down to 0.01 kt fired from the davey crockett recoilless rifle http://www.brook.edu/FP/projects/nucwcost/davyc.HTM (nice pictures) with a range of only a couple of miles, you'd better be sure you dialed the right yield well made bombs can be quite clean but they can also be "salted" - cobalt is really nasty also check out wikipedia on the teller-ulam method, the real secret of the bomb (it's ablation of the tamper) ;-) had bali been a small fission weapon, you'd know . . . the world would know _____ -alex _________________________________________________________________ Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 20 07:15:02 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9KEEPNm011474; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 07:14:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9KEEOlY011456; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 07:14:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 07:14:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4357A626.5060101 pobox.com> Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 10:13:58 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.10) Gecko/20050719 Fedora/1.7.10-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Say it ain't so References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63934 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harry Veeder wrote: > Such technology may be useful for diverting large asteroids on a > collisions course with earth. Unfortunately the "ground-penetrating" bombs are somewhat misleadingly named. They're really just big darts, heavy and pointed at one end, dropped from a high altitude and carried down by gravity. They "penetrate" because they've got a lot of momentum and a narrow point and they just punch a hole in the ground. In consequence there's no way we could get one to "penetrate" into an asteroid in order to split it, for instance -- the bombs can't dig or drill their way in and they don't have the kind of propulsion system they'd need to let them push their way in. You'd need to start over from scratch to design one that would "penetrate" an unearthly body. > Harry > > leaking pen wrote: > > they ARE still researching battlefield nukes, and the elimination > of fallout is being done by the fact that the ones being developed > are ground penetrating bunker busters. make a nice glass cave > thats self sealing. > > On 10/19/05, *Stephen A. Lawrence* wrote: > > > > thomas malloy wrote: > > > My friend was going on about the Bali bomb having been a nuke. > > Nonsense, I replied, if it was, there would be radioactivity. My > > friend countered that this was a clean atom bomb. My reply > was, this > > doesn't exist. Send me the URL, which he did, see > > http://joevialls.net/nuke/bali_micro_nuke.htm . The first > red flag was > > Zionist plot, like the Israelis have nothing better to do > than blow up > > night clubs in the pacific. > > Right, well said. > > Real mico-nukes are hard to produce. The article mentions the > object > achieved "critical mass" -- no, not really, micro-nukes don't > do that in > the conventional sense. They need to be imploded to extreme > density, as > I understand it, by a perfectly shaped, very powerful trigger > charge in > the form of a spherical shell of high explosive which > compresses the > fissile material to extreme density, in order to get a chain > reaction > going without requiring a critical mass. (Critical mass under > ordinary > conditions is something on the order of 30 pounds of uranium, > so says > Wikipedia, and it makes for quite a good-sized "bang" -- not > "micro" at > all.) > > Research to produce really small versions of such devices > would be a > major project, and IIRC it has (supposedly) not been done: the > U.S. > abandoned research into battlefield nukes (which is what we're > talking > about here) quite some time back because it conflicted with > the tenets > of MAD. The Bush administration was going to restart said > research, but > I don't know if that actually happened; a lot of people found > the idea > pretty objectionable, because the existence of effective > battlefield > nukes would make it too easy to escalate a conventional war into a > nuclear one. As long as the first nuclear step is a _big_ > step it's > less likely that anybody will take it (or so goes the theory). > > As to radiation, it's really unclear how you'd go about > eliminating the > radiation burst when the bomb goes off. Like, really, _really_ > unclear. It's also unclear how you eliminate _all_ fallout, > which is > necessary if you are to fool everyone into thinking it wasn't > a nuclear > explosive when they examine the site afterwards. I mean, > what's the > uranium/plutonium/whatnot turn into that's totally > non-radioactive? > Breaks all the way down into iron, maybe? Hmmm... > > But really, you said it all, up top: Anyone who starts by > asserting > this is a "Zionist plot" is already lost in the weeds and I > think we can > disregard the rest of the page, because that initial assertion > makes no > sense. > > > > > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 20 07:31:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9KEVB2H022469; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 07:31:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9KEV8C6022420; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 07:31:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 07:31:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002901c5d582$d8a676e0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051019151644.0454aaf0 pop.mindspring.com> <010801c5d4ef$0e7b21b0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051019170410.044f3470@pop.mindspring.com> <012301c5d4fa$9daf21a0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051019182029.044502f0@pop.mindspring.com> <015901c5d507$db2acdb0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <4357950C.40608@pobox.com> Subject: Re: Photosynthesis upper limits are unclear Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 07:30:39 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63935 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Steven, > You've said repeatedly in other posts that our wetlands (in the > United States) are currently unused, a view you apparently hold > because we haven't drained them and converted them to farmland. > You've explicitly suggested that the Florida everglades would be > a great place to grow e-grass. > Well, you may run into a bit of resistance there. Wetlands in > this country are considered a valuable resource all by > themselves, which you would destroy if you drained them and > converted them to E-grass fields. It is not either-or. And human mobility is a valuable resource too, in case you haven't used an automobile lately.. Most of the Everglades is National Park and is not going to be touched, so eliminate that immediately. There are still 2000 square miles of privately owned swamp land in Florida and the Gulf coast populated by mostly mosquitos and sand gnats - do they deserve protection? > You seriously think we should replace the Everglades with > grasslands? As mentioned, No. Please do not put words in my my mouth. Apparently you are unfamiliar with Florida. > I'd like to think I misunderstood your earlier posts. Is that > not what you had in mind? Unused swamp land is not National Park land. How else does one state this? Apparently you are unfamiliar with Florida and the Gulf coast. >> This Amazon land can be made incredibly productive on a >> sustainable basis as long as there is a big river there > It already IS incredibly productive: It provides homes and > sustenance for a huge fraction of the species on Earth. > It just doesn't happen to be producing anything you can burn in > your car. I see. You prefer to pay $75 barrel to Arabs for oil now, and more to come, with a large part of it flowing back into Iraq to Sunnis to purchase road-side bombs, smuggled-in from Syria to kill American troops. There is a fully developed market economy for this and it takes lots of cash. There is a bounty on the head of every American in Iraq, and your gasoline dollars are paying for it Of course you did not say that - and I never mentioned Everglades of Rainforest. So let's not put words into each other's mouths. What is your ultimate purpose in distorting this very important issue? There is eco-triage in this world. You can eliminate personal mobility or you can find the better of many unsatisfactory solutions, or you can sit-back and make absurd criticisms of valid proposals. There are about 50,000 square miles of unused wetland and shallow river bottom in the lower Amazon which is not forested now. It is sad and regrettable that it has previously been deforested - and sadder yet that the land is unproductive for most kinds of agriculture because there is no cheap fertilizer available there. Sure we can ignore this huge resource, which would replace all Arab oil - properly handled, and we can continue on with the status quo. Another thousand young men falling in Iraq this year. This Amazon land is an option to co-develop, with the cooperation of the Brazilians, to replace Arab oil, which will be $100 barrel this time next year. All it requires is political will-power and funding - but less than the $50, 000, 000, 000 we could save this year with an very expedited pull-out of Iraq. Most of this oil is going to Europe anyway, let them deal with the situation. We have no business there. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 20 07:49:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9KEmekZ008609; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 07:48:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9KEmbEG008572; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 07:48:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 07:48:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20051020144805702.AB5F18000085 mwinf3214.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20051020144806.00985618 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 15:48:06 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: The Wilma Vortex Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63936 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 07:39 am 20/10/2005 -0500, you wrote: >BlankGrimer wrote... > "In terms of the Alpha-atmosphere one can visualise a > small vortex in the middle of the Atlantic which > triggers a larger vortex which in turn triggers an > even larger vortex, etc., etc., until we finish up > with hurricane Wilma wrecking the town of Houston." > > Frank, > >Pull up the sat views halfway down the page taken by GOES-12 > > >http://www.nasa.gov/vision/earth/lookingatearth/h2005_wilma.html > > Look closely at the huge spirals imbedded in the northeast > quadrant of the hurricane cloud. These are tornados so > incredibly large they could be classified as hurricanes > within hurricanes. I couldn't relocate the sat view of a > different hurricane taken at at angle that showed as many > as 20 spirals in the NE quandrant. Fascinating stuff. > Our tests in a clear glass tank demonstrate these vortices > are being shed constantly. Or to put it more poetically, 8-) Big whorls have little whorls That feed on their velocity, And little whorls have lesser whorls And so on to viscosity. Cheers, Frank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 20 07:59:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9KEwdEX014350; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 07:58:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9KEwamt014321; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 07:58:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 07:58:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <004b01c5d586$b1483300$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <410-2200510420105142640 earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Positronium in Metastable Deuterons? Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 07:58:12 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0048_01C5D54C.0489FCF0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63937 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0048_01C5D54C.0489FCF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Fred, Combined Proton Positronium, Five "Quark" Proton Did you see this: Physicists discover particle with five quarks - 1 July 2003 After 30 years of searching physicists have finally found evidence for = particles containing five quarks. Most particles are either mesons, = which contain a quark and an antiquark, or baryons, which comprise three = quarks or three antiquarks. Now nuclear physicists in Japan, Russia and = the US have discovered a particle that contains two up quarks, two down = quarks and a strange antiquark. http://physicsweb.org/articles/news/7/7/1 ------=_NextPart_000_0048_01C5D54C.0489FCF0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Fred,

Combined Proton Positronium, Five = "Quark"=20 Proton
 
 
Did you see this:
Physicists discover particle with five quarks -=20 1 July 2003

After 30 years of searching physicists have = finally found=20 evidence for particles containing five quarks. Most particles are either = mesons,=20 which contain a quark and an antiquark, or baryons, which comprise three = quarks=20 or three antiquarks. Now nuclear physicists in Japan, Russia and the US = have=20 discovered a particle that contains two up quarks, two down quarks and a = strange=20 antiquark.

http://physicsweb.org/= articles/news/7/7/1

------=_NextPart_000_0048_01C5D54C.0489FCF0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 20 08:20:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9KFK69i000666; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 08:20:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9KFK3FP000601; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 08:20:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 08:20:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] X-Originating-Email: [caliostro1795 hotmail.com] X-Sender: caliostro1795 hotmail.com From: "Alex Caliostro" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Radiative Sky Cooling Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 09:19:30 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Oct 2005 15:19:30.0803 (UTC) FILETIME=[AB1DF430:01C5D589] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63938 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: this article on nightcool has been making the rounds on energy lists -- i did not see it here yet: http://www.fsec.ucf.edu/bldg/baihp/pubs/nightcool/ _____ -alex _________________________________________________________________ Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 20 08:30:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9KFU3OL007369; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 08:30:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9KFU1BG007305; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 08:30:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 08:30:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051020112526.04520a00 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 11:29:30 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Photosynthesis upper limits are unclear In-Reply-To: <002901c5d582$d8a676e0$6401a8c0 NuDell> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051019151644.0454aaf0 pop.mindspring.com> <010801c5d4ef$0e7b21b0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051019170410.044f3470 pop.mindspring.com> <012301c5d4fa$9daf21a0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051019182029.044502f0 pop.mindspring.com> <015901c5d507$db2acdb0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <4357950C.40608 pobox.com> <002901c5d582$d8a676e0$6401a8c0 NuDell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <_4gBND.A.DyB.4f7VDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63939 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >There are still 2000 square miles of privately owned swamp land in Florida >and the Gulf coast populated by mostly mosquitos and sand gnats - do they >deserve protection? Emphatically yes. We have already destroyed far too much wetland in this country. If anything, we should be trying to bring it back. I do not understand why you are so gung ho on the idea of making more liquid fuel when you know that with hybrid cars, telepresence, and other innovations we can reduce the demand for fuel by a factor of two today, and by a factor of 10 within a few decades. Why use the energy in the first place when it is cheaper, safer, faster and more convenient to *not* use it, by employing advanced technology? - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 20 08:47:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9KFkofR017975; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 08:47:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9KFkkMp017929; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 08:46:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 08:46:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=uL8/uDr+gt9jTKl6EoXDgSh9HyEhLQWdhVT3xNVJiBwoo1o4agBs3ThQqQVL+2KQNN1rfIlXy8Y940vvfOkCNzlHgh6U/GlS1pf1BJT4LvdYLD1icpPe6300oTqbHrVCq+UNixSMkPJ6ep6cQpxR32D6Hu7qp40LWHxSoiKe4/8= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 08:46:23 -0700 From: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Say it ain't so In-Reply-To: <4357A626.5060101 pobox.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_2892_8564335.1129823183157" References: <4357A626.5060101@pobox.com> Resent-Message-ID: <2Nf4_B.A._XE.kv7VDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63940 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_2892_8564335.1129823183157 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline penetration would be easy. an object that distant, just escape velocity would be enough to punch pretty deep, and with extra fuel, we can get missiles going pretty darn fast. its a matter of keeping the bomb intact, and the fact that penetration would shatter it, which would STILL be bad. we're talking moving, not blowing up. On 10/20/05, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > > > Harry Veeder wrote: > > > Such technology may be useful for diverting large asteroids on a > > collisions course with earth. > > Unfortunately the "ground-penetrating" bombs are somewhat misleadingly > named. > > They're really just big darts, heavy and pointed at one end, dropped > from a high altitude and carried down by gravity. They "penetrate" > because they've got a lot of momentum and a narrow point and they just > punch a hole in the ground. > > In consequence there's no way we could get one to "penetrate" into an > asteroid in order to split it, for instance -- the bombs can't dig or > drill their way in and they don't have the kind of propulsion system > they'd need to let them push their way in. You'd need to start over > from scratch to design one that would "penetrate" an unearthly body. > > > > Harry > > > > leaking pen wrote: > > > > they ARE still researching battlefield nukes, and the elimination > > of fallout is being done by the fact that the ones being developed > > are ground penetrating bunker busters. make a nice glass cave > > thats self sealing. > > > > On 10/19/05, *Stephen A. Lawrence* wrote: > > > > > > > > thomas malloy wrote: > > > > > My friend was going on about the Bali bomb having been a nuke. > > > Nonsense, I replied, if it was, there would be radioactivity. My > > > friend countered that this was a clean atom bomb. My reply > > was, this > > > doesn't exist. Send me the URL, which he did, see > > > http://joevialls.net/nuke/bali_micro_nuke.htm . The first > > red flag was > > > Zionist plot, like the Israelis have nothing better to do > > than blow up > > > night clubs in the pacific. > > > > Right, well said. > > > > Real mico-nukes are hard to produce. The article mentions the > > object > > achieved "critical mass" -- no, not really, micro-nukes don't > > do that in > > the conventional sense. They need to be imploded to extreme > > density, as > > I understand it, by a perfectly shaped, very powerful trigger > > charge in > > the form of a spherical shell of high explosive which > > compresses the > > fissile material to extreme density, in order to get a chain > > reaction > > going without requiring a critical mass. (Critical mass under > > ordinary > > conditions is something on the order of 30 pounds of uranium, > > so says > > Wikipedia, and it makes for quite a good-sized "bang" -- not > > "micro" at > > all.) > > > > Research to produce really small versions of such devices > > would be a > > major project, and IIRC it has (supposedly) not been done: the > > U.S. > > abandoned research into battlefield nukes (which is what we're > > talking > > about here) quite some time back because it conflicted with > > the tenets > > of MAD. The Bush administration was going to restart said > > research, but > > I don't know if that actually happened; a lot of people found > > the idea > > pretty objectionable, because the existence of effective > > battlefield > > nukes would make it too easy to escalate a conventional war into a > > nuclear one. As long as the first nuclear step is a _big_ > > step it's > > less likely that anybody will take it (or so goes the theory). > > > > As to radiation, it's really unclear how you'd go about > > eliminating the > > radiation burst when the bomb goes off. Like, really, _really_ > > unclear. It's also unclear how you eliminate _all_ fallout, > > which is > > necessary if you are to fool everyone into thinking it wasn't > > a nuclear > > explosive when they examine the site afterwards. I mean, > > what's the > > uranium/plutonium/whatnot turn into that's totally > > non-radioactive? > > Breaks all the way down into iron, maybe? Hmmm... > > > > But really, you said it all, up top: Anyone who starts by > > asserting > > this is a "Zionist plot" is already lost in the weeds and I > > think we can > > disregard the rest of the page, because that initial assertion > > makes no > > sense. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- "Monsieur l'abb=E9, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to ma= ke it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire ------=_Part_2892_8564335.1129823183157 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline penetration would be easy.  an object that distant, just escape veloci= ty would be enough to punch pretty deep, and with extra fuel, we can get mi= ssiles going pretty darn fast.  its a matter of keeping the bomb intac= t, and the fact that penetration would shatter it, which would STILL be bad= .  we're talking moving, not blowing up.=20

On 10/20/05, Stephen A. Lawrence <salaw@pobox= .com> wrote:


Harry Veeder wrote:
<= br>> Such technology may be useful for diverting large asteroids on a > collisions course with earth.

Unfortunately the "ground-pe= netrating" bombs are somewhat misleadingly
named.

They're re= ally just big darts, heavy and pointed at one end, dropped
from a high a= ltitude and carried down by gravity.  They "penetrate"
because they've got a lot of momentum and a narrow point and they just<= br>punch a hole in the ground.

In consequence there's no way we coul= d get one to "penetrate" into an
asteroid in order to split it= , for instance -- the bombs can't dig or
drill their way in and they don't have the kind of propulsion systemthey'd need to let them push their way in.  You'd need to start = over
from scratch to design one that would "penetrate" an unea= rthly body.


> Harry
>
> leaking pen wrote:
>
>&n= bsp;    they ARE still researching battlefield nukes, and th= e elimination
>     of fallout is being done by t= he fact that the ones being developed
>     are ground penetrating bunker busters.&nbs= p; make a nice glass cave
>     thats self s= ealing.
>
>     On 10/19/05, *Stephen A. La= wrence* <salaw@pobox.com> wrot= e:
>
>
>
>       &= nbsp; thomas malloy wrote:
>
>     &nb= sp;   > My friend was going on about the Bali bomb having been= a nuke.
>         > Nonse= nse, I replied, if it was, there would be radioactivity. My
>         > friend counte= red that this was a clean atom bomb. My reply
>   &nbs= p;     was, this
>     &= nbsp;   > doesn't exist. Send me the URL, which he did, see>         > http://joevialls.net/nuke/bali_micro_nuke.htm . The first
> =         red flag was
>  =        > Zionist plot, like the Israelis h= ave nothing better to do
>       &= nbsp; than blow up
>         = > night clubs in the pacific.
>
>         Right, wel= l said.
>
>         Rea= l mico-nukes are hard to produce.  The article mentions the
&g= t;         object
> &nbs= p;       achieved "critical mass" -= - no, not really, micro-nukes don't
>         do that in
>=          the conventional sense.&nb= sp; They need to be imploded to extreme
>    = ;     density, as
>     =     I understand it, by a perfectly shaped, very powerful tr= igger
>         charge in
>         the form of a sphe= rical shell of high explosive which
>     &n= bsp;   compresses the
>      =    fissile material to extreme density, in order to get a chain>         reaction
>&nbs= p;        going without requiring a crit= ical mass.  (Critical mass under
>         ordinary
>&n= bsp;        conditions is something on t= he order of 30 pounds of uranium,
>     &nbs= p;   so says
>       &nb= sp; Wikipedia, and it makes for quite a good-sized "bang" -- not<= br>>         "micro" a= t
>         all.)
>
&= gt;         Research to produce rea= lly small versions of such devices
>     &nb= sp;   would be a
>       = ;  major project, and IIRC it has (supposedly) not been done: the
&= gt;        =20 U.S.
>         abandoned rese= arch into battlefield nukes (which is what we're
>   &= nbsp;     talking
>     =     about here) quite some time back because it conflicted w= ith
>         the tenets
&= gt;         of MAD.  The = Bush administration was going to restart said
>         research, but
&= gt;         I don't know if that ac= tually happened; a lot of people found
>     = ;    the idea
>      &nb= sp;  pretty objectionable, because the existence of effective
>&= nbsp;        battlefield
>         nukes would make i= t too easy to escalate a conventional war into a
>   &= nbsp;     nuclear one.  As long as the first = nuclear step is a _big_
>       &n= bsp; step it's
>         less= likely that anybody will take it (or so goes the theory).
>
>         As to radi= ation, it's really unclear how you'd go about
>   &nbs= p;     eliminating the
>    &= nbsp;    radiation burst when the bomb goes off.  = Like, really, _really_
>       &nb= sp; unclear.  It's also unclear how you eliminate _all_ fallout,
>         which is
>&n= bsp;        necessary if you are to fool= everyone into thinking it wasn't
>     &nbs= p;   a nuclear
>       &= nbsp; explosive when they examine the site afterwards.  I mean,>         what's the
>         uranium/plutonium/= whatnot turn into that's totally
>      = ;   non-radioactive?
>      &= nbsp;  Breaks all the way down into iron, maybe?  Hmmm...>
>         But really, y= ou said it all, up top:  Anyone who starts by
>         asserting
>&= nbsp;        this is a "Zionist plo= t" is already lost in the weeds and I
>    &= nbsp;    think we can
>     &= nbsp;   disregard the rest of the page, because that initial asse= rtion
>         makes no
> =         sense.
>
> &nbs= p;       >
>    =      >
>
>
>
>




--
"Monsieur l'abb=E9, I de= test what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you t= o continue to write"  Voltaire=20 ------=_Part_2892_8564335.1129823183157-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 20 08:47:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9KFlBv4018216; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 08:47:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9KFl9wi018188; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 08:47:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 08:47:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4357BBDB.7030706 pobox.com> Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 11:46:35 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.10) Gecko/20050719 Fedora/1.7.10-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Photosynthesis upper limits are unclear References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051019151644.0454aaf0 pop.mindspring.com> <010801c5d4ef$0e7b21b0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051019170410.044f3470@pop.mindspring.com> <012301c5d4fa$9daf21a0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051019182029.044502f0@pop.mindspring.com> <015901c5d507$db2acdb0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <4357950C.40608@pobox.com> <002901c5d582$d8a676e0$6401a8c0@NuDell> In-Reply-To: <002901c5d582$d8a676e0$6401a8c0 NuDell> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63941 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Sorry; I'm not trying to put words into your mouth. You've mentioned the use of swampland in a few posts on this topic and I found that somewhat disturbing. So, I was asking (a bit rudely, perhaps) for some clarification. First, let's get one thing clear: swampland is the same as "wetlands". In many states "wetlands" are "protected", whether or not they're privately owned; they're "protected" in the sense that you must jump through regulatory hoops before you can drain them or turn them into arable land because they're known to be vital parts of the ecosystem. With that said, let us proceed. Jones Beene wrote: > Steven, > >> You've said repeatedly in other posts that our wetlands (in the >> United States) are currently unused, a view you apparently hold >> because we haven't drained them and converted them to farmland. >> You've explicitly suggested that the Florida everglades would be a >> great place to grow e-grass. > OK, this was incorrect; you didn't say "everglades". What you said was: > A couple of under-populated Florida swamp counties could supply a few > Quads alone - not to mention the rest of the USA. This suggests draining all the wetlands in two Florida counties and converting it to farmland. I am not familiar with Florida laws on this, but in a lot of states you'd hit some major regulatory resistance if you tried that -- leave alone the question of whether this particular bit of swampland is part of the Everglades system of wetlands (which is larger than Everglades National Park). I am somewhat familiar with the map of Florida and the counties down there are mostly rather large. "A couple of counties" in Florida could cover a lot of land area. >> Well, you may run into a bit of resistance there. Wetlands in this >> country are considered a valuable resource all by themselves, which >> you would destroy if you drained them and converted them to E-grass >> fields. > > > It is not either-or. And human mobility is a valuable resource too, in > case you haven't used an automobile lately.. I went out to start my car the other day and it wouldn't start. I happened to look at the inspection sticker while I was fiddling with it, and it said January, 2005. I went back into the house. > Most of the Everglades is National Park and is not going to be > touched, so eliminate that immediately. Key word in this statement seems to be "most". A lot of the Everglades in particular and Florida wetlands in general are not part of the National Park system. > There are still 2000 square miles of privately owned swamp land in > Florida and the Gulf coast populated by mostly mosquitos and sand > gnats - do they deserve protection? Quite possibly they do. Just because they're not part of Everglades National Park doesn't mean they're not an important part of the ecosystem. If nothing else they deserve some study and an EIS before you start draining them wholesale. > >> You seriously think we should replace the Everglades with grasslands? > This is clearly a bit overstated... > As mentioned, No. Please do not put words in my my mouth. Actually I was asking a question, rather than making an assertion that you had said something. > Apparently you are unfamiliar with Florida. > >> I'd like to think I misunderstood your earlier posts. Is that not >> what you had in mind? > > > Unused swamp land is not National Park land. Clearly the land you want to use is not National Park land: National Parks are too well protected to touch (unless you happen to be an oil company). Again, "unused" swamp land is in the eye of the beholder. In some areas it is, in fact, not legal to drain "unused swamp land" unless you flood an equivalent amount of "unused dry land" to replace the wetlands you're destroying. > How else does one state this? Apparently you are unfamiliar with > Florida and the Gulf coast. I am somewhat familiar with them but not intimately so. >>> This Amazon land can be made incredibly productive on a sustainable >>> basis as long as there is a big river there >> >> It already IS incredibly productive: It provides homes and >> sustenance for a huge fraction of the species on Earth. > >> It just doesn't happen to be producing anything you can burn in your >> car. > > > I see. Sorry, I was inflammatory and not very clear. The question I _should_ have asked is, "Are you proposing clearing large amounts of rainforest to do this, or are you proposing taking previously cleared land being used for marginal farming or cattle grazing and converting that to E-grass use?" If it's the latter, that sounds fine. If it's the former, it's another story. In digging through your former messages it appears to be the latter, not the former, that you were talking about; my apologies, I had not read your posts carefully enough the first time around. > You prefer to pay $75 barrel to Arabs for oil now, and more to come, > with a large part of it flowing back into Iraq to Sunnis to purchase > road-side bombs, smuggled-in from Syria to kill American troops. There > is a fully developed market economy for this and it takes lots of > cash. There is a bounty on the head of every American in Iraq, and > your gasoline dollars are paying for it > > Of course you did not say that - and I never mentioned Everglades of > Rainforest. No, you didn't. But you did mention Florida swampland, which I've already talked about, and you mentioned farms in the Amazon basin. However, when I searched back over your messages, I noticed that your first mention of the Amazon was in the context of previously cleared land: > there is more than enough prime land - previously deforested and now > fallow - in the Amazon So, my apologies again, I misunderstood you on that. I was thinking in terms of your later mention, in which you said, > For instance the land in the Amazon is poor. But they have plenty of > sun and water and only need lots more nitrogen in the soil. That's a perfect description of what you get if you clear _fresh_ rainforest land and I jumped to the apparently erroneous conclusion that that's what you were talking about. > So let's not put words into each other's mouths. What is your ultimate > purpose in distorting this very important issue? After seeing your messages proposing what appeared to be large-scale draining of wetlands I wanted to get a clearer picture of what you're proposing. Draining wetlands introduces its own flock of problems and isn't necessarily a good solution to anything; that was the point I was trying to make. > There is eco-triage in this world. > > You can eliminate personal mobility or you can find the better of many > unsatisfactory solutions, or you can sit-back and make absurd > criticisms of valid proposals. > > There are about 50,000 square miles of unused > wetland and shallow river bottom in the lower Amazon which is not > forested now. It is sad and regrettable that it has previously been > deforested - and sadder yet that the land is unproductive for most > kinds of agriculture because there is no cheap fertilizer available > there. That's a good point. Again, I was concerned that you might be proposing clearing virgin rainforest to replace it with E-grass farms. Apparently you were not. > Sure we can ignore this huge resource, which would replace all Arab > oil - properly handled, and we can continue on with the status quo. > Another thousand young men falling in Iraq this year. > > This Amazon land is an option to co-develop, with the cooperation of > the Brazilians, to replace Arab oil, which will be $100 barrel this > time next year. All it requires is political will-power and funding - > but less than the $50, 000, 000, 000 we could save this year with an > very expedited pull-out of Iraq. Most of this oil is going to Europe > anyway, let them deal with the situation. We have no business there. And our presence in Iraq isn't getting us any more oil than we'd get if we pulled out, anyway. > > Jones > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 20 08:51:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9KFos06021029; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 08:51:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9KForEX021006; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 08:50:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 08:50:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051020114130.04552d20 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 11:50:16 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Photosynthesis upper limits are unclear In-Reply-To: <43579792.1020200 pobox.com> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051019151644.0454aaf0 pop.mindspring.com> <010801c5d4ef$0e7b21b0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051019170410.044f3470 pop.mindspring.com> <012301c5d4fa$9daf21a0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051019182029.044502f0 pop.mindspring.com> <43579792.1020200 pobox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <1wPMuB.A.FIF.cz7VDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63942 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >And a glance at a human's teeth is enough to show humans are better suited >to a plant diet than a diet rich in cows. On the other hand, when you look at human stomach chemistry, you find that we are well suited to eating meat -- and especially cooked meat -- although perhaps we should not eat as much as modern people do in places like Poland. And when you look at our primate cousins you find they are like us: the world's most versatile omnivores, capable thriving on just about anything. And we all spring from a long line of insectivores, which are still the chimpanzee's favorite dish. (My father in law likes to eat 'em too.) People have been using fire and hand tools for so many eons it has apparently affected our evolutionary change. I find that astounding. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 20 08:55:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9KFt5nu023531; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 08:55:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9KFt3IE023493; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 08:55:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 08:55:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=V6enhjBIIISCyy+WrWZ/2W9wQLF8QrFA1/7pvVJCf3FbVwiIUGnal72fM6a0E/A8; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <411-220051042014541950 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Positronium in Metastable Deuterons? Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 09:54:19 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9407714edb5b8a84fa5eca729ff1593236e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.153 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63943 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Jones. Got it. Thanks. If I had seen it, I would've been astonished. Fred ----- Original Message ----- From: Jones Beene To: vortex-l eskimo.com Sent: 10/20/05 9:58:54 AM Subject: Re: Positronium in Metastable Deuterons? Fred, Combined Proton Positronium, Five "Quark" Proton Did you see this: Physicists discover particle with five quarks - 1 July 2003 After 30 years of searching physicists have finally found evidence for particles containing five quarks. Most particles are either mesons, which contain a quark and an antiquark, or baryons, which comprise three quarks or three antiquarks. Now nuclear physicists in Japan, Russia and the US have discovered a particle that contains two up quarks, two down quarks and a strange antiquark. http://physicsweb.org/articles/news/7/7/1 ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Jones.
 
Got it. Thanks.
 
If I had seen it, I would've been  astonished.
 
Fred
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 10/20/05 9:58:54 AM
Subject: Re: Positronium in Metastable Deuterons?

Fred,

Combined Proton Positronium, Five "Quark" Proton
 
 
Did you see this:
Physicists discover particle with five quarks - 1 July 2003

After 30 years of searching physicists have finally found evidence for particles containing five quarks. Most particles are either mesons, which contain a quark and an antiquark, or baryons, which comprise three quarks or three antiquarks. Now nuclear physicists in Japan, Russia and the US have discovered a particle that contains two up quarks, two down quarks and a strange antiquark.

http://physicsweb.org/articles/news/7/7/1

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 20 09:07:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9KG73Ag001817; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 09:07:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9KG70VY001743; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 09:07:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 09:07:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051020115037.04552590 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 12:01:25 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Jed Predicting a "gradual extinction" of Cold Fusion? In-Reply-To: <007e01c5d50d$c70daae0$a4b1e118 D54BYG11> References: <007e01c5d50d$c70daae0$a4b1e118 D54BYG11> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <2WCBOD.A.Db.kC8VDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63944 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Coviello wrote: >Though a believer, Rothwell has no hope for cold fusion, predicting >"gradual extinction" as aging cold fusionists die. He expects this >November's 12th international cold fusion conference in Shizuoka, Japan, >will be the last. > >------------------------------------------------ > >Jed, Did they quote you correctly? Yup. The article was distorted and one-sided, but I think his quotes and facts are correct. I suppose we should be thankful for that. >Are you really that cynical about cold fusion? "Cynical" is the wrong word. Pessimistic, perhaps. I am at heart an optimist, but honestly I see little hope for CF as things now stand. Ed Storms and others have told me that breakthroughs are brewing in hidden labs. They do not tell me the details because I do not want to know any secrets. I hope they are right but I have heard that sort of thing for more than 10 years, with no results. > That is pretty stark the way they portrayed you. Do you really think > ICCF-12 will be the last? I doubt that. When that reporter contacted me, around August 25, I had just heard from the ICCF-12 secretary who was panicked because only 18 people had registered, and we need at least a hundred to keep the hotel reservation. (I do not know whether 100 have registered yet.) Fewer people show up at each ICCF conference. They are always the same people. Most of them are not doing active research anymore, and they present only a rehash of their previous work. Most of the ones who do not show up are incapacitated by old age, or dead. > It seems as if the ICCF conferences are getting more popular, > attracting a little more mainstream attention . . . No, they are getting less popular. >. . . and now with an official sponser the ICMNS, unlikely to fade away >now that there is an organization behind it. ICMNS is hardly an official organization. It is an informal shoestring operation run by people who have been involved with the field for years. >Also, there were some good tidbits in that article. The Univ of Utah >President from 1989 is basically a believer in cold fusion even though he >didn't come out and say it (100s of replications), interesting. . . . Yes, there was some good stuff. It was not entirely one-sided. Still, I may write a short letter to the author complaining about some of his distortions. I will copy it here. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 20 09:25:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9KGO17j011382; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 09:24:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9KGNxcU011341; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 09:23:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 09:23:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: "John Steck" To: Subject: Model Engines Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 11:23:39 -0500 Message-ID: <000001c5d592$a1dc0660$5c5e10ac eDentsply.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63945 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Cool site... http://www.yesteryeartoys.com/toyshop/toyshop.htm Steam, stirlings, etc. Some really nice looking units. -john From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 20 09:26:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9KGPuN6012539; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 09:26:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9KGPrKZ012515; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 09:25:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 09:25:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <007a01c5d592$e1d150e0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051019151644.0454aaf0 pop.mindspring.com> <010801c5d4ef$0e7b21b0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051019170410.044f3470@pop.mindspring.com> <012301c5d4fa$9daf21a0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051019182029.044502f0@pop.mindspring.com> <015901c5d507$db2acdb0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <4357950C.40608@pobox.com> <002901c5d582$d8a676e0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051020112526.04520a00@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Photosynthesis upper limits are unclear Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 09:25:27 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63946 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed, > I do not understand why you are so gung ho on the idea of making > more liquid fuel when you know that with hybrid cars, > telepresence, and other innovations we can reduce the demand for > fuel by a factor of two today, and by a factor of 10 within a > few decades. I think when you factor in population growth, increased wealth, increased demand overseas. immigration and so forth - that hybrid cars, telepresence, and other innovations will reduce the demand for fuel by a factor of two within a decade, not a few years - but the supply of liquid fuel will go down at a faster rate - and be bid up by China, India and the emerging third world. We will have a hydrogen economy - I am convinced of that. But in the early years of the hydrogen economy is underway and which can start in ernest in 2007 with a major high-level push - the best use of hydrogen will be not as a stand alone fuel but instead to be used as fertilizer for multiplying the energy content into ethanol as the stand-alone fuel, which is - in effect - only a carrier of hydrogen. The bottom line is that if you have a gigawatt (thermal) nuclear pant - you might use that for 350 megawatts of electricity for recharging batteries --- or for 500 megawatt equivalents of hydrogen gas (latest figures) --- OR instead, multiply that energy content enormously by going to a more complex system of hydrogen --> ammonia --> fertilizer --> ethanol ... and with the aim of getting 5 gigawatt-equivalents of ethanol from the original 500 megawatts of hydrogen. Its pure economic expediency. We can multiply the energy content of every gigawatt of (nuclear or wind produced)hydrogen by perhaps a factor or 10 or more (maybe) for at least the time frame for a "real" solution to come along ... PLUS get the benfit of a liquid non-fossil, carbon neutral-fuel to boot - by going to the complex process mentioned above. The "real" solutions would be LENR, hydrino, or ZPE magnetic converters - or the other high-tech promises which are on the horizon, but not yet reduced to prototype. > Why use the energy in the first place when it is cheaper, safer, > faster and more convenient to *not* use it, by employing > advanced technology? You are even more idealistic than I am ! That advanced technolgy you speak of is either not here yet, or too-little too-late, or in the case of telecommuting already in use, or in the case of hydrogen - better used as fertilizer to get ethanol. Ethanol is not THE answer - but it is an effective stopgap solution for getting through the years 2007 -2015 .... IMHO. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 20 09:46:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9KGjiUN027482; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 09:46:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9KGjhpx027462; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 09:45:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 09:45:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] X-Originating-Email: [caliostro1795 hotmail.com] X-Sender: caliostro1795 hotmail.com From: "Alex Caliostro" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: ICEs can't burn h2 Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 10:45:22 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Oct 2005 16:45:22.0529 (UTC) FILETIME=[A9C8F510:01C5D595] Resent-Message-ID: <7NteEB.A.AtG.3m8VDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63947 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: bad news from united nuclear, inventors of the smart tank h2 storage system http://www.switch2hydrogen.com/h2new.htm their test vehicles appear to be failing due to embrittlement -- not totally unexpected maybe their parent site offers an alternative with this creative wallpaper http://www.unitednuclear.com/lightlarge.htm i wonder how many joules per gallon they get _____ -alex _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 20 09:50:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9KGnawA029907; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 09:49:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9KGnYA3029888; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 09:49:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 09:49:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051020123134.04523580 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 12:48:55 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Photosynthesis upper limits are unclear In-Reply-To: <007a01c5d592$e1d150e0$6401a8c0 NuDell> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051019151644.0454aaf0 pop.mindspring.com> <010801c5d4ef$0e7b21b0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051019170410.044f3470 pop.mindspring.com> <012301c5d4fa$9daf21a0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051019182029.044502f0 pop.mindspring.com> <015901c5d507$db2acdb0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <4357950C.40608 pobox.com> <002901c5d582$d8a676e0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051020112526.04520a00 pop.mindspring.com> <007a01c5d592$e1d150e0$6401a8c0 NuDell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <-M05KB.A.4SH.eq8VDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63948 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >I think when you factor in population growth, increased wealth, increased >demand overseas. immigration and so forth - that hybrid cars, >telepresence, and other innovations will reduce the demand for fuel by a >factor of two within a decade, not a few years - but the supply of liquid >fuel will go down at a faster rate - and be bid up by China, India and the >emerging third world. People in China can use hybrid cars too. In India and Pakistan they already use telepresence -- they are using it to take away our jobs! (Washington Post, "Virtual Secretary Puts New Face on Pakistan") It would not take a decade to implement telepresence; it could be done in six months. If plug-in hybrid cars were developed in a crash program, they would replace most ordinary cars within five years or so, as the existing fleet wears out. I will grant that given present administration policies this will not happen, but it is technically possible. For that matter, this administration would never implement your idea either. >The bottom line is that if you have a gigawatt (thermal) nuclear pant - >you might use that for 350 megawatts of electricity . . . Actually more like 400 with combined cycle generators, but you make a good point. >for recharging batteries . . . Do not forget that batteries are far more efficient than liquid fuel, and they can be recharged with wind or hydroelectric power. >--- or for 500 megawatt equivalents of hydrogen gas (latest figures) . . . Unless you are talking about using fuel cells, the 400 MW electric output would provide more transportation than the hydrogen gas. For other applications, such as home heating in very cold places where heat pumps are not effective, hydrogen gas would probably be better. >--- OR instead, multiply that energy content enormously by going to a more >complex system of hydrogen --> ammonia --> fertilizer --> ethanol ... and >with the aim of getting 5 gigawatt-equivalents of ethanol from the >original 500 megawatts of hydrogen. Its pure economic expediency. That is an interesting idea but I am afraid it would end up destroying huge land areas, and reducing food production. >You are even more idealistic than I am ! That advanced technolgy you >speak of is either not here yet, or too-little too-late, or in the case of >telecommuting already in use . . . Telecommuting from home is not adequate for most workers. I am talking about something quite different: telepresence in satellite offices to establish a virtual, 8-hour presence. >Ethanol is not THE answer - but it is an effective stopgap solution for >getting through the years 2007 -2015 .... IMHO. I do not think it can replace more than a few percent of fossil fuel, unless we use heroic measures such as you nuclear power idea. It is very unlikely that will be implemented in the near future. A plan to use massive numbers of plug-in hybrids is much more feasible, much cheaper, and it would meet with no resistance from regulators or environmentalists. Also, you are talking about Brazil supplying the US with fuel. Even if Brazil can do this, it cannot supply 90% of fuel used everywhere in the world, whereas plug-in hybrid cars can reduce the petroleum fuel used in all the cars everywhere on Earth by 90%. (It would increase other fossil fuels to some extent.) An improvement in efficiency goes everywhere, and applies to all countries. Improving the output of synthetic fuel in one or two countries only improves the situation in those places (or in the country they export to). Most countries do not have any extra land to produce biofuel. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 20 09:56:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9KGtxX2001410; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 09:56:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9KGtwsL001390; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 09:55:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 09:55:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <009001c5d597$17d6d3a0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: Subject: Re: Imagining the FFF - the future-fuel-farm Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 09:55:36 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_008D_01C5D55C.6B1653A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63949 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_008D_01C5D55C.6B1653A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Posting new ideas to the internet - even if they are "green" probably = has some ultimate value, even if one must consume bandwidth in a = continuing effort to improve or firm-up a previous suggestion. I suppose = that by now, anyone on vortex who is tiring of a particular thread knows = where their "delete" key is located, so this apology will be short. If = the "intent" expressed in this post - which is the presentation of an = alternative route to energy self-sufficiency for the coming decade - = reaches the attention of only one policy-maker, present or future, then = it will be considered a worthwhile effort. The basic premise is that the Uncle Sam had been placed "over a barrel" = by world events, oil gluttony, and a petrocracy which has not considered = all the available options of energy self-sufficiency. We can explore = these options to find the "better" of all the many unsatisfactory = solutions, or we can curtail personal mobility, or we can continue on = the same dead-end path to destruction by squandering resources in a = futile war - and lost-lives in a part of the world where we have no = business interfering. Today Sec. Rice says that we may still be in Iraq = in 10 years. Totally unacceptable, as long as there are alternatives. There are about 50,000 square miles of unused wetland and shallow river = bottom in the lower Amazon which is not forested now. This is the = equivalent to the average size of an Eastern US state. It can be = incredibly productive and is of course frost-free and continually = irrigated. This land will never be reforested back to its former = grandeur. It is truly sad and regrettable that it has previously been = deforested for simply the timber, which was sold for a pittance - and = sadder yet that the land is unproductive for most kinds of agriculture = because there is no cheap fertilizer available there. Can one turn this = "lemon" into lemonade? Yes. We can partially cure both problems by making the land suitable for = renewable intensive agriculture by building a substantial number of = nuclear powered fertilizer factories and bringing this land back to = productive use for growing biomass to be used for a liquid = transportation fuel, ... all this to get us from over the Arab's = "barrel," and out of the Islamic cross-hairs fro world terrorism. Sure we can ignore this huge undeveloped resource, which would capable = of replacing all imported Arab oil, or at least 5 quads of it. And if = properly handled, the land would gradually become more fertile - not = less - and hopefully in a decade there will be energy alternatives and = the land can be converted to food production... but of course, we can = also continue blindly on with the status quo - the only question now is = should this redevelopment of available land for the purpose of = energy-sustainability be ignored because it was "formerly" rain-forest? There are political realities involved with nuclear energy for Brazil = which will keep American built reactors from having any chance of being = competitive there, but other countries can step in using a variant of = our technology. The Brazilians would embrace this - as it is all gravy = for them in the long-term and there will remain another 100,000 square = miles of real rain-forest to protect, if they so desire.=20 This is all part of the coming hydrogen economy, but there is a = difference - in that instead of trying to store and burn hydrogen, which = is not easy to store, we use the hydrogen to make ammonia - NH3- and = use ammonium compounds to fertilize poor land for biomass to be used for = ethanol. This way we can "multiply" the energy content available in the = hydrogen may fold PLUS at the same time have a liquid fuel which can be = used in ICE auto engines PLUS improve the land for latter use by Brazil = - assuming we do come up with high-tech options within the coming = decade. The bottom line is that if you have a gigawatt thermal nuclear plant - = you might use that for 500 megawatt equivalents of hydrogen gas OR = instead, multiply that by going to a more complex system of hydrogen --> = ammonia --> fertilizer --> ethanol with the aim of getting 5 = gigawatt-equivalents of ethanol from the hydrogen. The idea of using a smaller capacity fission plant in tandem with a = combined fertilizer plant, fermentation plant, and an ethanol = distillation unit seems imminently doable at first glance without any = breakthrough in technology required. This would be especially useful as = floating factories, anchored in a freshwater delta area such as the = Amazon, where harvesting can be done by barge. Hydrogen from nuclear energy (or wind) is the key to this but we must = get away from hydrogen from fossil fuel. As of 2004, about 50 million = metric tons of hydrogen are produced each year, increasing at 15% = annually. About half of worldwide hydrogen production is used to produce = ammonia-based fertilizers, and most of the rest is used in oil = refineries. 48% of hydrogen is produced from natural gas, 30% is from = oil, and 18% is from coal. Electrolysis accounts for about 4%, because = electrolysis only makes sense when the cost of electricity is lower than = the cost of the hydrocarbon fuel that could produce that electricity.=20 A massive increase in hydrogen production (via electrolysis) is neither = feasible nor needed since two distinct new direct nuclear thermocehmical = routes to hydrogen are now available, either of which will give about = double the energy-output of hydrogen via electrolysis. 'Fonly....as they say (if only). 'Fonly there were American-style entrepreneurs in Brazil who could pull = this off. I can see from the response of Vortexians that there is way = too much built-in hostility to a US company trying to do it here or = there... OTOH there is always Cargill... http://www.cargill.com/worldwide/brazil.htm Jones ------=_NextPart_000_008D_01C5D55C.6B1653A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Posting new ideas to the internet - = even if they=20 are "green" probably has some ultimate value, even if one must consume = bandwidth=20 in a continuing effort to improve or firm-up a previous suggestion. = I=20 suppose that by now, anyone on vortex who is tiring of a particular = thread knows=20 where their "delete" key is located, so this apology will be short. = If the "intent" expressed in this post - which is = the=20 presentation of an alternative route to energy self-sufficiency for the = coming=20 decade - reaches the attention of only one policy-maker, present or = future, then=20 it will be considered a worthwhile effort.

The basic premise is that the Uncle Sam had been placed "over a = barrel"=20 by world events, oil gluttony, and a petrocracy which has not considered = all the=20 available options of energy self-sufficiency. We can explore these = options to=20 find the "better" of all the many unsatisfactory solutions, or we can = curtail=20 personal mobility, or we can continue on the same dead-end path to = destruction=20 by squandering resources in a futile war - and lost-lives in a part = of the=20 world where we have no business interfering. Today Sec. Rice says that = we may=20 still be in Iraq in 10 years. Totally unacceptable, as long as there are = alternatives.

There are about 50,000 square miles of unused = wetland and=20 shallow  river bottom in the lower Amazon which is not forested = now. This=20 is the equivalent to the average size of an Eastern US state. It can be=20 incredibly productive and is of course frost-free and continually = irrigated.=20 This land will never be reforested back to its former grandeur. It is = truly sad=20 and regrettable that it has previously been deforested for simply the = timber,=20 which was sold for a pittance - and sadder yet that the land is = unproductive for=20 most kinds of  agriculture because there is no cheap fertilizer = available=20 there. Can one turn this "lemon" into lemonade?
 
Yes. We can partially cure both problems by making the land = suitable for=20 renewable intensive agriculture by building a substantial number of = nuclear=20 powered fertilizer factories and bringing this land back to productive = use for=20 growing biomass to be used for a liquid transportation fuel, ... all = this to get=20 us from over the Arab's "barrel," and out of the Islamic cross-hairs fro = world=20 terrorism.

Sure we can ignore this huge undeveloped resource, = which would=20 capable of replacing all imported Arab oil, or at least 5 quads of = it. And=20 if properly handled, the land would gradually become more fertile - not = less -=20 and hopefully in a decade there will be energy alternatives and the land = can be=20 converted to food production... but of course, we can also continue = blindly on=20 with the status quo - the only question now is should this = redevelopment of=20 available land for the purpose of energy-sustainability be ignored = because it=20 was "formerly" rain-forest?

There are political realities = involved with=20 nuclear energy for Brazil which will keep American built reactors from = having=20 any chance of being competitive there, but other countries can step in = using a=20 variant of our technology. The Brazilians would embrace this - as it is = all=20 gravy for them in the long-term and there will remain another 100,000 = square=20 miles of real rain-forest to protect, if they so desire.
 
This is all part of the coming hydrogen economy, but there is a = difference=20 - in that instead of trying to store and burn hydrogen, which is not = easy to=20 store, we use the hydrogen to make ammonia - NH3-  and use ammonium = compounds to fertilize poor land for biomass to be used for ethanol. = This way we=20 can "multiply" the energy content available in the hydrogen may fold = PLUS at the=20 same time have a liquid fuel which can be used in ICE auto engines PLUS = improve=20 the land for latter use by Brazil - assuming we do come up with = high-tech=20 options within the coming decade.

The bottom line is that if you = have a=20 gigawatt thermal nuclear plant - you might use that for 500 megawatt = equivalents=20 of hydrogen gas OR instead, multiply that by going to a more complex = system of=20 hydrogen --> ammonia --> fertilizer --> ethanol with the aim of = getting=20 5 gigawatt-equivalents of ethanol from the hydrogen.

The idea of = using a=20 smaller capacity fission plant in tandem with a combined fertilizer = plant,=20 fermentation plant, and an ethanol distillation unit seems imminently = doable at=20 first glance without any breakthrough in technology required. This would = be=20 especially useful as floating factories, anchored in a freshwater delta = area=20 such as the Amazon, where harvesting can be done by = barge.

Hydrogen from=20 nuclear energy (or wind) is the key to this but we must get away from = hydrogen=20 from fossil fuel. As of 2004, about 50 million metric tons of hydrogen = are=20 produced each year, increasing at 15% annually. About half of worldwide = hydrogen=20 production is used to produce ammonia-based fertilizers, and most of the = rest is=20 used in oil refineries. 48% of hydrogen is produced from natural gas, = 30% is=20 from oil, and 18% is from coal. Electrolysis accounts for about 4%, = because=20 electrolysis only makes sense when the cost of electricity is lower than = the=20 cost of the hydrocarbon fuel that could produce that electricity.
 
A massive increase in hydrogen production (via = electrolysis) is=20 neither feasible nor needed since two distinct new direct nuclear=20 thermocehmical routes to hydrogen are now available, either of which=20 will give about double the energy-output of hydrogen via=20 electrolysis.
 
'Fonly....as they say (if only).
 
 'Fonly there were American-style entrepreneurs in Brazil who = could=20 pull this off. I can see from the response of Vortexians that there is = way too=20 much built-in hostility to a US company trying to do it here or there... = OTOH=20 there is always Cargill...
http://www.cargill.c= om/worldwide/brazil.htm
 
Jones
 

 
------=_NextPart_000_008D_01C5D55C.6B1653A0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 20 10:05:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9KH4RbS006990; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 10:04:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9KH4Ovq006949; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 10:04:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 10:04:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4357CDFC.1000204 pobox.com> Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 13:03:56 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.10) Gecko/20050719 Fedora/1.7.10-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Photosynthesis upper limits are unclear References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051019151644.0454aaf0 pop.mindspring.com> <010801c5d4ef$0e7b21b0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051019170410.044f3470@pop.mindspring.com> <012301c5d4fa$9daf21a0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051019182029.044502f0@pop.mindspring.com> <43579792.1020200@pobox.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20051020114130.04552d20@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20051020114130.04552d20 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63950 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > >> And a glance at a human's teeth is enough to show humans are better >> suited to a plant diet than a diet rich in cows. > > > On the other hand, when you look at human stomach chemistry, you find > that we are well suited to eating meat -- and especially cooked meat > -- although perhaps we should not eat as much as modern people do in > places like Poland. And when you look at our primate cousins you find > they are like us: the world's most versatile omnivores, capable > thriving on just about anything. And we all spring from a long line of > insectivores, which are still the chimpanzee's favorite dish. (My > father in law likes to eat 'em too.) > > People have been using fire and hand tools for so many eons it has > apparently affected our evolutionary change. I find that astounding. :-) Indeed! It appears we co-evolved with our use of tools! In other words, the first creature to cook with fire was _not_ a "human". There is just too much about human construction that makes perfect sense in tool-using clothing-wearing creatures, that would make no sense at all in technology-free animals, to see how it could be otherwise. The teeth of our closest relatives, the chimpanzees, tell the story in boldface type. NOBODY could mistake a chimp's teeth for a human's teeth, yet we supposedly are adapted to the same diet. But that rather cuts the ground out from under my argument about teeth, doesn't it? > > - Jed > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 20 10:24:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9KHO6HY023183; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 10:24:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9KHO4Fe023150; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 10:24:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 10:24:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=i0Dz2fblFFDXVLNZdX38qOy97gB1niMJYo6DPS3Eb1OpEt684YmjofOFgkNTZNlx; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200510420162321600 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Positronium in Metastable Deuterons? Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 11:23:21 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940a5ee50f4cabcca13640d2e47bb03cb92350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.44 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63951 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII String Theory about to be confirmed by experiment? http://www.columbia.edu/cu/record/archives/vol23/vol23_iss18/14.html " String theory adds a new ultramicroscopic layer by declaring that subatomic particles actually consist of tiny loops of vibrating energy, “strings.” http://pr.caltech.edu/periodicals/EandS/articles/LXVI3/choco.html Vindication? FJS ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

String Theory about to be confirmed by experiment?
 
 
" String theory adds a new ultramicroscopic layer by declaring that subatomic particles
actually consist of tiny loops of vibrating energy, “strings.”
 
 
Vindication?
 
FJS
 
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 20 11:01:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9KI128x018807; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 11:01:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9KI0ixo018524; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 11:00:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 11:00:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051020135740.037f8040 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 14:00:01 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Beaming microwave power from the moon Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63952 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here is a nutty idea. Inspired, but nutty. See: http://www.wired.com/news/technology/wireless_special/0,2914,69038-2,00.html?tw=wn_story_page_next1 QUOTES: Criswell's concept is massive in scale: It would involve building 20,000 to 30,000 reception stations on Earth to accept the power beams and convert them into electricity that could be distributed to the population (The solar panels would be constructed on the moon with raw materials in the soil in "basically a glass-making process," he said). . . . Criswell predicts that the LSP system could produce a steady 20-terawatt stream that he predicts the estimated 10 billion people living on Earth by 2050 will need. "It actually provides you with such clean, sustainable energy that we can correct our past errors," he said. . . . - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 20 11:08:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9KI8BrA027560; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 11:08:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9KI83Rn027504; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 11:08:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 11:08:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=c1jAwJaBVpgns6C7Sjmf8Aps/JNXEwmpX/gSDbJojGjrYLguvI/qtsV0pBqKYCOK; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220051042017716320 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Positronium in Metastable Deuterons? Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 12:07:16 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94035720e6cec19e554b0c4d8b0c440bb4d350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.61 Resent-Message-ID: <4fREE.A.otG.C09VDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63954 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Great animations of String "Vibrating Loop" particles. Note how an increase in energy results in an increase in frequency. Doesn't show that radius R varies as 1/Energy. Also for spin 1/2 "particles" the Moment of Inertia (1/2 MR^2) has to be a loop or "disk". http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant/resonance.html "According to string theory, absolutely everything in the universe—all of the particles that make up matter and forces—is comprised of tiny vibrating fundamental strings. Moreover, every one of these strings is identical. The only difference between one string and another, whether it's a heavy particle that is part of an atom or a massless particle that carries light, is its resonant pattern, or how it vibrates." FJS ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 10/20/05 12:24:22 PM Subject: Re: Positronium in Metastable Deuterons? String Theory about to be confirmed by experiment? http://www.columbia.edu/cu/record/archives/vol23/vol23_iss18/14.html " String theory adds a new ultramicroscopic layer by declaring that subatomic particles actually consist of tiny loops of vibrating energy, “strings.” http://pr.caltech.edu/periodicals/EandS/articles/LXVI3/choco.html Vindication? FJS ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Great animations of String "Vibrating Loop" particles.
 
Note how an increase in energy results in an increase in frequency.
 
Doesn't show that radius R varies as 1/Energy.
 
Also for spin 1/2 "particles"  the Moment of Inertia (1/2 MR^2) has to be a loop
or "disk".
 
 
"According to string theory, absolutely everything in the universe—all of the particles that make up matter and forces—is comprised of tiny vibrating fundamental strings. Moreover, every one of these strings is identical. The only difference between one string and another, whether it's a heavy particle that is part of an atom or a massless particle that carries light, is its resonant pattern, or how it vibrates."
 
FJS
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 10/20/05 12:24:22 PM
Subject: Re: Positronium in Metastable Deuterons?

String Theory about to be confirmed by experiment?
 
 
" String theory adds a new ultramicroscopic layer by declaring that subatomic particles
actually consist of tiny loops of vibrating energy, “strings.”
 
 
Vindication?
 
FJS
 
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 20 11:37:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9KIaihS016819; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 11:36:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9KIafWS016784; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 11:36:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 11:36:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <48u2fu$1e23f6c mxip06a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.97,236,1125892800"; d="scan'208"; a="1545714892:sNHT21216510" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: OrionWorks Organization: OrionWorks To: CC: Subject: OT: Aquatic speculations on human evolution Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 13:36:13 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63956 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Jed sez: > > Stephen sez: > > People have been using fire and hand tools for so many eons it has > > apparently affected our evolutionary change. I find that astounding. > > :-) Indeed! It appears we co-evolved with our use of tools! > In other > words, the first creature to cook with fire was _not_ a "human". > > There is just too much about human construction that makes > perfect sense in tool-using clothing-wearing creatures, that > would make no sense at all in technology-free animals, to see > how it could be otherwise. > > The teeth of our closest relatives, the chimpanzees, tell the > story in boldface type. NOBODY could mistake a chimp's teeth > for a human's teeth, yet we supposedly are adapted to the same > diet. > > But that rather cuts the ground out from under my argument > about teeth, doesn't it? > > > > > - Jed I'm getting off-topic here (my apologies) but I couldn't resist bringing up a fascinating speculative book on human evolution I read back in the late 60s, "The Naked Ape" by Desmond Morris. In one of Desmond's chapters he made what I thought were convincing speculations claiming that some of our ancestors had adapted themselves to working within a water environment. Some of the most convincing human traits we currently possess that Desmond brought up to support an aquatic heritage are: 1) Fat deposits over most of our body: Fat deposits smooth the body's surface area causing less drag while gliding through water. Desmond stated that our nearest genetic relatives, Chimps, Gorillas, etc... have no fat deposits in the same manner that we possess. They possess have far less fat. (I suspect most simians don't enjoy taking baths either, with a few notible exceptions!) 2) Loss of hair: Loss of hair adds to increased efficiency in swimming through water. Less drag. 3) Direction of hair: What hair that is left on human body parts, particular hair on the back, neck and shoulders possesses a curious directional flow patter that would match how water would naturally flow past the body surfaces as one propelled oneself through water. As for me, like many humans, I love swimming, diving, and splashing about and was fortunate to have grown up in environments that allowed me quality time to snorkel and dive in the ocean. Guam, particularly. I can still hold my breath under water for more than two minutes if I put some mental effort into it. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 20 11:52:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9KIqI3h026423; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 11:52:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9KIqBm7026295; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 11:52:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 11:52:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=StZnniD3Y9ZiUfmzaFjXQ26eRvbJ8nPKI8o7SHFPMIA7Ys7pgq4EQxkIwmUxACnrEYY+sRavp6t1+BqTr4Xz8tl0zM6V6DPO6covbV+g57WgF7IOHP+fuRBS4P4r3AaGsZ+iJA8MeLzXn0T/HYwcrZxXKKd0t0y1IhR+vojlhPk= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 11:51:44 -0700 From: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT: Aquatic speculations on human evolution In-Reply-To: <48u2fu$1e23f6c mxip06a.cluster1.charter.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_4452_25199425.1129834304791" References: <48u2fu$1e23f6c mxip06a.cluster1.charter.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63957 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_4452_25199425.1129834304791 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline do you better than that. are you aware that after the face has been exposed to water, in a slow process that takes about 15 minutes, the body changes cappilary flow to heat the inside, the pancreas (believe its the pancreas) shrinks putting more hemoglobin into the system, the lungs internally chang= e shape to be better at large breaths held in, and several other changes occur. the human body has indeed evolved for use in the water. On 10/20/05, OrionWorks wrote: > > > Jed sez: > > > Stephen sez: > > > > People have been using fire and hand tools for so many eons it has > > > apparently affected our evolutionary change. I find that astounding. > > > > :-) Indeed! It appears we co-evolved with our use of tools! > > In other > > words, the first creature to cook with fire was _not_ a "human". > > > > There is just too much about human construction that makes > > perfect sense in tool-using clothing-wearing creatures, that > > would make no sense at all in technology-free animals, to see > > how it could be otherwise. > > > > The teeth of our closest relatives, the chimpanzees, tell the > > story in boldface type. NOBODY could mistake a chimp's teeth > > for a human's teeth, yet we supposedly are adapted to the same > > diet. > > > > But that rather cuts the ground out from under my argument > > about teeth, doesn't it? > > > > > > > > - Jed > > I'm getting off-topic here (my apologies) but I couldn't resist bringing > up a fascinating speculative book on human evolution I read back in the l= ate > 60s, "The Naked Ape" by Desmond Morris. In one of Desmond's chapters he m= ade > what I thought were convincing speculations claiming that some of our > ancestors had adapted themselves to working within a water environment. S= ome > of the most convincing human traits we currently possess that Desmond > brought up to support an aquatic heritage are: > > 1) Fat deposits over most of our body: Fat deposits smooth the body's > surface area causing less drag while gliding through water. Desmond state= d > that our nearest genetic relatives, Chimps, Gorillas, etc... have no fat > deposits in the same manner that we possess. They possess have far less f= at. > (I suspect most simians don't enjoy taking baths either, with a few notib= le > exceptions!) > > 2) Loss of hair: Loss of hair adds to increased efficiency in swimming > through water. Less drag. > > 3) Direction of hair: What hair that is left on human body parts, > particular hair on the back, neck and shoulders possesses a curious > directional flow patter that would match how water would naturally flow p= ast > the body surfaces as one propelled oneself through water. > > As for me, like many humans, I love swimming, diving, and splashing about > and was fortunate to have grown up in environments that allowed me qualit= y > time to snorkel and dive in the ocean. Guam, particularly. I can still ho= ld > my breath under water for more than two minutes if I put some mental effo= rt > into it. > > > Regards, > Steven Vincent Johnson > www.OrionWorks.com > > -- "Monsieur l'abb=E9, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to ma= ke it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire ------=_Part_4452_25199425.1129834304791 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline do you  better than that.  are you aware that after the face has = been exposed to water, in a slow process that takes about 15 minutes, the b= ody changes cappilary flow to heat the inside, the pancreas (believe its th= e pancreas) shrinks putting more hemoglobin into the system, the lungs= internally change shape to be better at large breaths held in, and several= other changes occur.  the human body has indeed evolved for use in th= e water. =20

On 10/20/05, OrionWorks <orionworks@ch= arter.net> wrote:
> Jed sez:
> > Steph= en sez:

> > People have been using fire and hand tools for so = many eons it has
> > apparently affected our evolutionary change. I find that asto= unding.
>
> :-)  Indeed!  It appears we co-= evolved with our use of tools!
>  In other
> words, t= he first creature to cook with fire was _not_ a "human".
>
> There is just too much about human construction that makes=
> perfect sense in tool-using clothing-wearing creatures, that
&g= t; would make no sense at all in technology-free animals, to see
> ho= w it could be otherwise.
>
> The teeth of our closest relatives, the chimpanzees, tell = the
> story in boldface type.  NOBODY could mistake a chimp= 's teeth
> for a human's teeth, yet we supposedly are adapted to the = same
> diet.
>
> But that rather cuts the ground out from under m= y argument
> about teeth, doesn't it?
>
> >
> &g= t; - Jed

I'm getting off-topic here (my apologies) but I couldn't re= sist bringing up a fascinating speculative book on human evolution I read b= ack in the late 60s, "The Naked Ape" by Desmond Morris. In one of= Desmond's chapters he made what I thought were convincing speculations cla= iming that some of our ancestors had adapted themselves to working within a= water environment. Some of the most convincing human traits we currently p= ossess that Desmond brought up to support an aquatic heritage are:

1) Fat deposits over most of our body: Fat deposits smooth the body= 's surface area causing less drag while gliding through water. Desmond stat= ed that our nearest genetic relatives, Chimps, Gorillas, etc... have no fat= deposits in the same manner that we possess. They possess have far less fa= t. (I suspect most simians don't enjoy taking baths either, with a few noti= ble exceptions!)

2) Loss of hair: Loss of hair adds to increased efficiency in swimm= ing through water. Less drag.

3) Direction of hair: What hair that i= s left on human body parts, particular hair on the back, neck and shoulders= possesses a curious directional flow patter that would match how water wou= ld naturally flow past the body surfaces as one propelled oneself through w= ater.

As for me, like many humans, I love swimming, diving, and splashing= about and was fortunate to have grown up in environments that allowed me q= uality time to snorkel and dive in the ocean. Guam, particularly. I can sti= ll hold my breath under water for more than two minutes if I put some menta= l effort into it.


Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com




--
"Monsieur l'abb=E9, I detest what you write, but I= would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write"&= nbsp; Voltaire=20 ------=_Part_4452_25199425.1129834304791-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 20 12:14:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9KJELXv016657; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 12:14:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9KJEJeR016613; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 12:14:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 12:14:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051020151215.043008c0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 15:13:27 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Message sent to Salt Lake City Weekly reporter Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63958 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Subject: Disappointed by your article Ted, Any news about cold fusion is good news, but frankly I am disappointed by your article. I find it insolent, inflammatory and one sided. For example, you say that cold fusion has become a "cult" complete with "cheerleaders, magazines, hats and coffee mugs along with regular academic conferences." I was not aware of the hats, but in any case, please note that every major field of science and engineering, including conventional nuclear fission reactor engineering, has cheerleaders, hats and coffee mugs. I have a mug from the ANS. See: http://www.ans.org/store/vc-pblc. Here is a more serious example of a distorted, one-sided statement: "Two years later, after an embarrassed Utah Legislature spent $5 million on aborted cold-fusion research and the university's president had resigned, Pons and Fleischmann rode out of town on a rail . . ." I wrote to you about this subject (see below). I cited a paper in our library published by these researchers. Did you review this paper? Do you understand what Utah's cold fusion research program produced? Let me rewrite your sentence to make it more evenhanded: "Two years later, the Utah Legislature was embarrassed because it had spent $5 million on what most people considered aborted cold-fusion research. However, cold fusion researchers point out that this research resulted in 100% reproducible, concentrated tritium. This is proof that a nuclear reaction does occur in a cold fusion cell. These results were repeated many time, they were widely replicated in other laboratories, and they were published in leading peer-reviewed journals." To take another example: "The debate about cold fusion is whether cold fusionists can use a thermometer. Critics contend they can't." Actually, they do not use thermometers but rather something like an RTD that costs $1,000 to $20,000, and that been calibrated and certified by the manufacturer to plus/minus 0.0001 deg C. But okay, fair enough so far. But you should have added: " . . . cold fusion researchers point out that the techniques they use in most experiments were developed between 1780 and 1840; these techniques have been used in hundreds of thousands of other experiments; and cold fusion researchers generally use expensive, reliable off-the-shelf laboratory equipment. Among the cold fusion researchers there are several people who are world-class experts in these techniques, who have written the leading textbooks on the subject. Furthermore, in hundreds of experiments they have measured high levels of heat that are easy to detect. Their work has been peer reviewed and published in hundreds of journal papers, so a mistake should have been found long ago. The critics who claim there are mistakes have not published any papers indicating what mistakes they have in mind." Perhaps that is too wordy, but you get the idea. You have let every substantive criticism of cold fusion stand, without challenge, whereas every claim made by cold-fusion scientists is countered by a statement from Huizenga or some other opponent. (These statements all lack falsifiable scientific content. Huizenga appears to be saying that the calorimetric results are caused by "psychology." This is either nonsense or he believes in mind over matter effects.) I do not understand why journalists such as yourself are incapable of telling both sides of a story. - Jed - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - During our phone conversation, I mentioned that the research conducted with the $5 million grant from the state of Utah was superb. In a more rational world, it would have convinced every scientist on earth that cold fusion is a real nuclear effect, and it would be considered one of the most important and successful experiments in history. See: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/WillFGtritiumgen.pdf Critics who know nothing about cold fusion, and who have never bothered to glance at a paper, have often poked fun at Utah for granting the money. The taxpayers of Utah should realize that no one has ever been better spent, and that these results were a triumph. . . . From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 20 11:18:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9KIHSLf003780; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 11:17:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9KIHOTs003730; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 11:17:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 11:17:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: ThomasClark123 aol.com Message-ID: <127.672f6de8.30893918 aol.com> Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 14:16:56 EDT Subject: Re: Electrostatic Hover Cars To: vortex-l eskimo.com, A-albionic_Subscription@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1129832216" X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5039 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63955 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friendsD Status: RO X-Status: A -------------------------------1129832216 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/14/2005 11:43:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ThomasClark123 aol.com writes: Here below is a link to an article that discusses how to make hoverboards and hovercars work based on Forcefield Air-cushion Technology: http://www.spacemagnetics.com/hovercraft/faq_hovercraft.html I just bought a copy of their Hoverboard design notes at the above link, which is very professionally written. It mentions a patent that presently exists for electrostatically levitated vehicles (Patent 3,095,167, filed June 1975 by H.C. Dudley) to propel a missile from Earth by using a high charge on the order of 400,000 to 500,00 volts that can be used to raise the charge on a hoverboard to compensate for the difference in charge between the board and the ground. The problem is to maintain such a high charge with such close distance to the ground. The above design notes that I purchased also give a practical design answer that works using ions and microwaves with electrostatics but which has to be researched more and fine tuned to be mass produced. -------------------------------1129832216 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In a message dated 10/14/2005 11:43:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Thomas= Clark123 aol.com writes:
Here below is a link to an article that dis= cusses how to make hoverboards and hovercars work based on Forcefield Air-cu= shion Technology:
 
I just bought a copy of their Hoverboard de= sign notes at the above link, which is very professionally written.  It= mentions a patent that presently exists for electrostatically levitated veh= icles (Patent 3,095,167, filed June 1975 by H.C. Dudley) to propel a missile= from Earth by using a high charge on the order of 400,000 to 500,00 volts t= hat can be used to raise the charge on a hoverboard to compensate for the di= fference in charge between the board and the ground. The problem is to maint= ain such a high charge with such close distance to the ground.  =
 
The above design notes that I purchased also give a practical design an= swer that works using ions and microwaves with electrostatics but which has=20= to be researched more and fine tuned to be mass produced. -------------------------------1129832216-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 20 12:22:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9KJM9VX022126; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 12:22:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9KJM7hv022111; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 12:22:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 12:22:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 12:21:50 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Electrostatic Hover Cars In-Reply-To: <127.672f6de8.30893918 aol.com> Message-ID: References: <127.672f6de8.30893918 aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63959 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thu, 20 Oct 2005 ThomasClark123 aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 10/14/2005 11:43:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > ThomasClark123 aol.com writes: > Here below is a link to an article that discusses how to make hoverboards and > hovercars work based on Forcefield Air-cushion Technology: > > http://www.spacemagnetics.com/hovercraft/faq_hovercraft.html The page is silly; it's about "ferrofluid-glob technology," not about air-cushions or force fields. This site strongly resembles one of the many "fake plans websites" that plague the Free Energy arena. When "Back to the Future" first came out, there were some fake-plans companies selling stuff as well. The creators of these sites don't have any working technology, and their intent is to sell expensive plans which do not work. Don't trust them, and certainly don't spend your money. See: FREE ENERGY FAQ: "But plans are for sale!" http://amasci.com/freenrg/fefaq.html#plans > I just bought a copy of their Hoverboard design notes at the above link, Ask yourself this question: if the design notes are a bunch of untried speculations, and the authors are actually some college kids (or even high-school kids) trying to make money by selling stuff on the internet, HOW MUCH WOULD YOU PAY FOR THEIR DESIGN NOTES? My own answer would be: zero. I wouldn't spend any money, since I probably can come up with much better speculations than dishonest non-scientists who are trying to gain customers rather than trying to advance the research. Also, always ignore fancy blueprints: they're aimed at gullible people who can be deceived by surface appearances. > The above design notes that I purchased also give a practical design answer > that works using ions and microwaves with electrostatics but which has to be > researched more and fine tuned to be mass produced. Meaning, "they haven't tried it themselves, that's why they can't post any photos of their experiments." Go look at the J. L. Naudin site if you want to see how genuine alt-science experimenters behave. (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 20 12:34:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9KJXRb6029873; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 12:33:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9KJX875029643; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 12:33:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 12:33:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051020153110.045f9680 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 15:32:18 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: ANS book on nuclear production of hydrogen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j9KJWVSn029313 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63960 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: See: http://www.ans.org/store/vi-690064 Nuclear Production of Hydrogen: Technologies and Perspectives for Global Deployment ANS Order #: 690064 ISBN: 0-89448-570-9 An International Nuclear Socieities Council (INSC) publication in the Current Issues in Nuclear Energy Series 2004 · Softcover · 140 pages Price: $25.00 The perspective of the transition to a hydrogen economy, where electricity and hydrogen serve as complementary energy carriers and where a sustainable energy supply is attained by eliminating carbon emission, is being considered of great importance in a world dependent on volatile fossil fuel prices and climate change impacts. This report describes technologies currently existing and being developed for the production of hydrogen focusing on nuclear energy input and analyzes safety issues associated with such production. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 20 12:44:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9KJheZn004437; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 12:43:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9KJhTV7004388; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 12:43:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 12:43:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] X-Originating-Email: [caliostro1795 hotmail.com] X-Sender: caliostro1795 hotmail.com From: "Alex Caliostro" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Electric Dragsters Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 13:43:07 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Oct 2005 19:43:07.0818 (UTC) FILETIME=[7ECAE8A0:01C5D5AE] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63961 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: this vid of approx 6 mins http://www.exn.ca/news/video/exn2005/09/20/exn20050920-drag.asx shows amateur to academic attempts at EV drag racing -- one interesting entry from BYU uses a GM EV1 driven by super capacitors there's also a quip at the end on cooking grease diesels _____ -alex _________________________________________________________________ On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 20 13:45:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9KKj346016236; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 13:45:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9KKixul016188; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 13:44:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 13:44:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051020154104.045f8480 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 16:44:34 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: 3,000 nuke plant plan, 50:50 split Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j9KKidoX015916 Resent-Message-ID: <0V0CQD.A.u8D.KHAWDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63963 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Yesterday I mentioned a plan to build the equivalent of ~1,500 fission reactors with wind and solar thermal plants, and ~1,500 advanced next-generation fission reactors. This would produce all the energy needed in the world today including liquid and gas chemical fuel for transportation. Energy consumption is increasing in China and India so more would be needed in the future. I split these plants 50:50 for a reason: wind and solar are intermittent and they cannot be dispatched on demand. EPRI says that most distribution networks today can handle up to 20% wind or solar electricity without expensive upgrades. If 50% of electricity came from wind, we would have to have very expensive long-distance transmission, or massive overcapacity, or some other solution. So, perhaps this ratio should be something more like 30:70, assuming that future distribution networks will be better at handling intermittent power. Or perhaps most of the hydrogen gas should come from the renewable side, and the electricity from the nuclear side. Hydrogen is stored in tanks, and if hydrogen production is reduced for a few days in cloudy weather, it would not matter. The Luz solar thermal plants in California have built-in dispatchable buffers. They generate steam from solar power, and the steam is superheated with natural gas. When it is raining they use more gas, and in a pinch they can run on gas alone. ~80% of the energy they provide year round is solar. This is a very clever design. The principal is similar to that of a plug-in hybrid car: you use the renewable clean energy first, and you reserve the expensive nonrenewable energy as a backup, or to augment the clean energy. Conventional nuclear plants are not good at turning on and off quickly, so we would need a buffer of dispatchable generation capacity, probably natural, hydrogen or biomass. In some regions of the country, other interesting ways may be used to get around the problem of intermittent generation. Take hydrogen. Thermal processes will probably be more cost-effective than electrolysis. In Nevada this might be solar thermal, while in Connecticut it would have to be a nuclear thermal plant. In North Dakota, however, they might build thousands of wind turbines and use the excess electricity at night to generate hydrogen, even though electrolysis is less cost-effective. You might even build 10 times more wind turbine capacity (nameplate) than the people in Dakota need. The wind is always blowing somewhere in the state, so this would guarantee electricity nearly all the time, without a nuclear power plant. (You would still need some dispatchable power.) During most daylight hours, and nearly all the time at night, the system would generate more electricity than the people there can use, so the excess would be converted into hydrogen which is shipped by pipeline to other parts of the country. If we get lucky and develop superconducting power lines, North Dakota might ship the electricity across the country. This would be better than gas. We would get renewable electricity from North Dakota, and renewable solar thermal hydrogen gas from Nevada. In states without wind, solar or biomass resources, these imports would be augmented by locally generated nuclear electricity and hydrogen. Sometimes, a process such as electrolysis which is inherently less cost-effective in most regions, under most circumstances, works well under special circumstances. This system would be tremendously complex and expensive. It would require years of expert planning, and decades of construction. It would be inflexible. It would require upgrades and an expansion of the power distribution network, which is unsightly and triggers a NIMBY reaction. If our needs changed quickly we would be stuck with the old mix of electricity and hydrogen for a long time. Cold fusion would be more flexible, easier to implement, and FAR cheaper. The complexity does have one advantage. You could slide something like Jones Beene's Brazilian nuclear/biomass energy into it without difficulty. The system is already so complex, with many different inputs and delicate balancing required, so you would hardly notice the extra expense required to accommodate yet another input. It is like an urban road in India: it already accommodates peddled cars, bullocks, bicycles, buses and pedestrians; you could throw in slow moving electric jitneys or elephants and nobody will notice. Cold fusion would be dead simple and all-encompassing, with no other inputs either necessary or possible. It would be like a US highway instead of the Indian road. No mopeds allowed. What I am advocating here is an unusual mixture of hardcore environmentalist alternative energy and nuclear energy. As I mentioned before, I do not like nuclear power but I think we can live with it for the next few hundred years without producing an untenable amount of nuclear waste. Experts such as Ed Storms have grave reservations about nuclear waste and potential terrorism. While I am sure there is much to worry about, I am even more worried about coal and oil. Incidentally, here is another idea for solar hydrogen generation, from the Weitzman Institute in Israel: http://www.energycooperation.org/solarh2.htm "The new solar technology . . . [creates] an easily storable intermediate energy source form from metal ore, such as zinc oxide. With the help of concentrated sunlight, the ore is heated to about 1,200°C in a solar reactor in the presence of wood charcoal. The process splits the ore, releasing oxygen and creating gaseous zinc, which is then condensed to a powder. Zinc powder can later be reacted with water, yielding hydrogen, to be used as fuel, and zinc oxide, which is recycled back to zinc in the solar plant." - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 20 14:22:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9KLM1Dg008719; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 14:22:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9KLLulI008601; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 14:21:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 14:21:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Beaming microwave power from the moon Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 07:21:13 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051020135740.037f8040 pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20051020135740.037f8040 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.77.227] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Thu, 20 Oct 2005 21:21:12 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j9KLLKcE008287 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63964 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Thu, 20 Oct 2005 14:00:01 -0400: Hi, [snip] >Here is a nutty idea. Inspired, but nutty. See: > >http://www.wired.com/news/technology/wireless_special/0,2914,69038-2,00.html?tw=wn_story_page_next1 > AFAIK, the major problem with this concept is beam spreading. Microwaves are so long that by the time the beam reached Earth, the beam would no longer be focused where it was intended. (Any EEs present please correct me on this if I'm wrong). OTOH, there is no reason why the solar cells couldn't be produced on the moon, then shipped to Earth orbit (cheaper than lifting them out of Earth's gravity well). Of course, it might be necessary to capture a comet and bring it to the moon as a water supply. :) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk In a town full of candlestick makers, everyone lives in the light, In a town full of thieves, there is only one candle, and everyone lives in the night. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 20 14:27:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9KLQV1o012514; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 14:26:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9KLQTxi012489; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 14:26:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 14:26:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Radiative Sky Cooling Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 07:26:05 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <9p2gl1d0vtg9dger24gf8teu9ujhr46723 4ax.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.77.227] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Thu, 20 Oct 2005 21:26:04 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j9KLQA5j012290 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63965 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Alex Caliostro's message of Thu, 20 Oct 2005 09:19:30 -0600: Hi, [snip] >this article on nightcool has been making the rounds on energy lists -- i >did not see it here yet: > >http://www.fsec.ucf.edu/bldg/baihp/pubs/nightcool/ [snip] I get much better results than this by just leaving windows open at night to let the night breeze blow through the house. ;) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk In a town full of candlestick makers, everyone lives in the light, In a town full of thieves, there is only one candle, and everyone lives in the night. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 20 14:28:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9KLRD79012883; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 14:27:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9KLRC4f012868; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 14:27:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 14:27:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <4enk78$buef2r mxip29a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.97,237,1125892800"; d="scan'208"; a="401030235:sNHT15588964" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: OrionWorks Organization: OrionWorks To: CC: Subject: Re: Electrostatic Hover Cars Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 16:26:43 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63966 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: ThomasClark123 ... > Thanks for the reference to the above website. I was > looking for it but I forgot its location. I found a > good article that was posted a few years ago at this > site on a ufo plasma engine: > http://homepage.ntlworld.com/ufophysics/ufoplasmaengine.htm . Greetings Baron, Excuse me for butting in here... I was going to suggest that you might want to focus the creative energies of your inner light more in the manner of mythic interpretive tales, but then, after browsing some of your web links I see that is precisely what you do! For example, I see you've published poems and tales in Praise of Plato's Elysium and other scholarly subjects as well. That impresses me. For what it's worth, the problem with expressing the universe in mythological terms and then speculating on scientific technologies (particularly speculative ones) is when one can not or is unwilling to distinguish the difference between the two realities. Both perceptions of reality are absolutely necessary. Both are absolutely needed. But both perceptions are absolutely not the same. I think it would also be helpful to review and test the contents of Inspired Writing (including what some would call "channeled" messages) in the same rigorous manner that any collected scientific "data" must endure. This harkens back to my previous comment that if one can not or is unwilling to distinguish the difference between the two perceptions of reality then one is in danger of loosing touch with the unique strengths both universes offer and how, when understood, both can complement and nurture the growth of our individual psyches. As you say: Get informed. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 20 14:40:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9KLeMGA020285; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 14:40:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9KLeLDP020266; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 14:40:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 14:40:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002301c5d5be$d20cbd80$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051020154104.045f8480 pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: 3,000 nuke plant plan, 50:50 split Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 14:39:58 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63967 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote, > Conventional nuclear plants are not good at turning on and off > quickly, so we would need a buffer of dispatchable generation > capacity, probably natural, hydrogen or biomass. This is true, but it does not mean that there is not a potential synergy with solar (i.e. solar and nuclear used together). Because the steam temperature which can be used with conventional nuclear is limited by many metallurgical issues, the Carnot efficiency is not normally very high, but that is where concentrated solar energy could possibly be used to advantage. This is especially relevant since peak solar hours usually coincide with peak electrical demand (due to air-conditioning). If the normal limits of nuclear steam are 1000 F and concentrated solar can boost that steam to 1500 F, this makes a large Carnot efficiency difference... and for the pyrolysis, i.e. thermo-chemical splitting of water, the temperature-boost is even more important. However, to my knowledge there are no hybrid nuclear/solar plants in operation (or even planned). > Incidentally, here is another idea for solar hydrogen > generation, from the Weitzman Institute in Israel: > > http://www.energycooperation.org/solarh2.htm > > "The new solar technology . . . [creates] an easily storable > intermediate energy source form from metal ore, such as zinc > oxide. With the help of concentrated sunlight, the ore is heated > to about 1,200°C in a solar reactor in the presence of wood > charcoal. The process splits the ore, releasing oxygen and > creating gaseous zinc, which is then condensed to a powder. Zinc > powder can later be reacted with water, yielding hydrogen, to be > used as fuel, and zinc oxide, which is recycled back to zinc in > the solar plant." Yes, and elemental Zinc for the Zinc-air battery for automotive may be an even better use for their process - as this is a lighter battery than most, but the main drawback is that zinc needs replacement rather than a simple home recharge. One could conceivably mount solar a few solar concentrators over converted filling stations to provide some of the zinc for refills - possibly even around a home or farm if some clever inventor comes up with some kind of 'cassette' or cartridge so that molten metal or fumes or never an issue . The "big picture" will surely be a mix of many diverse technologies - and the risk of that is that to get the lowest cost in any one technology - the manufacturer needs to get to volume production. For wind energy this would be very important as mass production of common parts would save a huge amount. I suspect that if government were to step-in now and say - yes we are going to order a thousand nuclear plants before 2020 and that same energy level in wind farms etc - and then divide up the tasks to the most qualified parties at cost-plus (foregoing some of the capitalist mentality) - then far lower installed prices are possible... Perhaps not as low as that Russian News article: ha! a $200K nuclear plant is impossible (they must be using a very old exchange rate ;-) - but standardization is the sane way to do this - and one of the reasons the French are doing well economically these days. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 20 14:59:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9KLx6wW031024; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 14:59:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9KLx5m0031010; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 14:59:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 14:59:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Message sent to Salt Lake City Weekly reporter X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = dcf35902a696aec8ab4a512a7c111b8b Reply-To: michael.foster excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20051020215836.5DCD3B723 xprdmailfe20.nwk.excite.com> Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 17:58:36 -0400 (EDT) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63968 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Damn, Jed, that's a hell of a well thought out riposte. OTOH, the number of subscribers to the Salt Lake City Weekly Reporter is probably smaller than the number of subscribers to this list. M. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 20 15:16:42 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9KMFaJC010264; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 15:15:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9KMFYcK010233; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 15:15:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 15:15:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051020175336.045f9370 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 18:14:07 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: 3,000 nuke plant plan, 50:50 split In-Reply-To: <002301c5d5be$d20cbd80$6401a8c0 NuDell> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051020154104.045f8480 pop.mindspring.com> <002301c5d5be$d20cbd80$6401a8c0 NuDell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63969 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >If the normal limits of nuclear steam are 1000 F and concentrated solar >can boost that steam to 1500 F, this makes a large Carnot efficiency >difference... and for the pyrolysis, i.e. thermo-chemical splitting of >water, the temperature-boost is even more important. However, to my >knowledge there are no hybrid nuclear/solar plants in operation (or even >planned). Now, THAT'S an interesting switch! The ANS is planning some sort of nuclear hydrogen generation scheme. See the publication I listed previously, "Nuclear Production of Hydrogen: Technologies and Perspectives for Global Deployment." Hey, there is a journal, even though we have not produced a single gram of nuclear hydrogen fuel. See: http://www.wonuc.org/hydrogen/ijhpa.htm >The "big picture" will surely be a mix of many diverse technologies . . . Unless CF works, in which case everything else will wither away. (At least as a primary source of energy.) >. . . and the risk of that is that to get the lowest cost in any one >technology - the manufacturer needs to get to volume production. Exactly. With most technologies, it is not cost-effective to have more than two or three basic systems. Robert Cringley's rule of thumb is that you always have one dominant and one subordinate technology, and there is rarely room left for #3. There are not enough researchers to go around, not enough capital, and you have to train three sets of support engineers, and maintain three kinds of manufacturing facilities spare parts etc. I think there will likely be a shakeout, at least in each major division. We cannot afford to develop large-scale solar-thermal, plus PV, plus the solar Stirling gadgets. That's a shame. They are all nifty and I would hate to have to choose between them. PV may survive for niche applications. Someone here suggested it might even survive competition with CF, if the price falls enough. That is true, because it is the only alternative energy source that works on site at your house (without a distribution network), and takes up no useful space. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 20 15:19:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9KMJI85014715; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 15:19:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9KMJGl5014670; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 15:19:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 15:19:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051020181745.04607040 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 18:18:58 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: Message sent to Salt Lake City Weekly reporter In-Reply-To: <20051020215836.5DCD3B723 xprdmailfe20.nwk.excite.com> References: <20051020215836.5DCD3B723 xprdmailfe20.nwk.excite.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63970 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here is the response from the reporter. Either it is a form letter or he does not take umbrage easily. - Jed - - - - - - - - - - - Mr. Rothwell -- Glad you were able to read the article. Thanks again for your help. Best wishes, Ted McDonough Salt Lake City Weekly From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 20 15:34:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9KMXqWa027311; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 15:34:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9KMXltb027238; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 15:33:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 15:33:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002301c5d5c5$d9117240$ad82163f oemcomputer> From: "Kyle Mcallister" To: References: <20051019140816.74005.qmail web34909.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: The Cheapest Way To Fix The Energy Crisis (and lots of other crises) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 18:30:05 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63971 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > If 1/100th of the money and time spent on these > schemes was used to develop a sterility drug, and if > the drug were deposited around the world, maybe by a > platoon of satellites in polar orbit, it would give > humanity a bright, uncrowded future. Which part of humanity? Which parts/races are selected to be fertile? > Let's say we wanted the world's population to decline > to 1 billion. Concoct the drug to sterilize 90 of 100 > women, or 98 of 100, or whatever it took, and watch > the population decline. And watch the population percentage drastically move towards the elderly as no replacement workforce is born. Oh....but you'd probably just 'get rid' of the elderly excess, right? Nice name....Goering. Seriously, if anyone actually tries to implement something this evil, they must be eliminated. This is a page right out of hardcore Nazism. --Kyle From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 20 15:43:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9KMgVO0002002; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 15:42:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9KMgUGe001969; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 15:42:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 15:42:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051020182147.045ffdb0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 18:41:45 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: 3,000 nuke plant plan, 50:50 split In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20051020175336.045f9370 pop.mindspring.com> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051020154104.045f8480 pop.mindspring.com> <002301c5d5be$d20cbd80$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051020175336.045f9370 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63972 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: >Unless CF works, in which case everything else will wither away. (At least >as a primary source of energy.) And then I contradicted that: >PV may survive for niche applications. Someone here suggested it might >even survive competition with CF, if the price falls enough. That is true . . . I meant that CF will be the only planetary-scale energy source. I expect people will always use firewood, windup toys, and stuff like windup and shake-up LED flashlights (http://www.foreverflashlights.com/) or PV calculators. We may hang on to hydroelectric dams for a long time, although the network will collapse. Maybe we will develop an application that calls for a terrific amount of electricity right next-door to the dam. Maybe we can use them for super-duper super colliders. I'll bet physicists would have fun with a gigawatt power supply. I hope there will always be some living museum water-mills, turbine generators, and wind turbines, and of course steam locomotives. But not fission reactors! Cornell University abandoned their 1 MW Fall Creek hydroelectric generator in the 1970. It was vandalized! In 1981 they lovingly restored it. I hope they are still running it 500 years from now. See: http://www.sustainablecampus.cornell.edu/energy-hydro.htm - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 20 15:44:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9KMhJ9s002497; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 15:43:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9KMhHai002445; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 15:43:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 15:43:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00d201c5d5c7$a408de60$a4b1e118 D54BYG11> Reply-To: "John Coviello" From: "John Coviello" To: References: <007e01c5d50d$c70daae0$a4b1e118 D54BYG11> <6.2.1.2.2.20051020115037.04552590@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Jed Predicting a "gradual extinction" of Cold Fusion? Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 18:43:07 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-From: johnwc patmedia.net Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63973 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" >> That is pretty stark the way they portrayed you. Do you really think >> ICCF-12 will be the last? I doubt that. > > When that reporter contacted me, around August 25, I had just heard from > the ICCF-12 secretary who was panicked because only 18 people had > registered, and we need at least a hundred to keep the hotel reservation. > (I do not know whether 100 have registered yet.) > > Fewer people show up at each ICCF conference. They are always the same > people. Most of them are not doing active research anymore, and they > present only a rehash of their previous work. Most of the ones who do not > show up are incapacitated by old age, or dead. > I had no idea that the situation was that dire for the ICCFs. I hope there were some late participants planning on coming to this year's ICCF in Japan. What was the high water mark for the ICCF conferences? Well, one thing is for sure, cold fusion is getting a lot more mainstream press coverage in this decade than last decade. I mean, just about every major publication has done some sort of story about cold fusion in recent years from Science to the New York Times. I believe the interest is there or these stories would not appear. All the ICCFs need is some decent developments, like commercialization, and they'll be turning people away from the upcomming conferences. I am personally more optomistic about cold fusion than I was a decade ago. I almost lost interst completely in cold fusion during the late 1990s, as developments were sporadic. Now, we've got the U.S. Navy having revealed a decade of cold fusion research in 2002 with positive conclusions and a luke warm review from the U.S. DOE in 2004 and serious commercialization development efforts underway finally from a number of teams (at least the ones we know about). I feel momentum in cold fusion, momentum that will not be stopped until cold fusion enters the mainstream either through undeniable experimental results or commercialization. Especially now with fossil fuels getting more expensive, people will be receptive to cold fusion commercialization. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 20 15:48:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9KMlr6o005722; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 15:48:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9KMlpmO005677; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 15:47:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 15:47:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051020184217.04607e20 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 18:47:29 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: The Cheapest Way To Fix The Energy Crisis (and lots of other crises) In-Reply-To: <002301c5d5c5$d9117240$ad82163f oemcomputer> References: <20051019140816.74005.qmail web34909.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <002301c5d5c5$d9117240$ad82163f oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63974 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Kyle Mcallister wrote: >And watch the population percentage drastically move towards the elderly as >no replacement workforce is born. Oh....but you'd probably just 'get rid' of >the elderly excess, right? Hey folks, let's assume this posting was a joke. Black humor, like Jonathan Swift's "A Modest Proposal." Please do not waste time taking it seriously. See: http://www.english.upenn.edu/~jlynch/Courses/95c/Texts/modest.html (I find this hysterical, but then, I liked the movie "Secretary.") - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 20 16:11:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9KNB9hx024013; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 16:11:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9KNB7oA023989; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 16:11:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 16:11:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: ThomasClark123 aol.com Message-ID: <1e6.46ca7454.30897df3 aol.com> Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 19:10:43 EDT Subject: Re: Electrostatic Hover Cars To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: ThomasClark123 aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1129849843" X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5039 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63975 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -------------------------------1129849843 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/20/2005 5:28:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time, orionworks charter.net writes: I think it would also be helpful to review and test the contents of Inspired Writing (including what some would call "channeled" messages) in the same rigorous manner that any collected scientific "data" must endure. This harkens back to my previous comment that if one can not or is unwilling to distinguish the difference between the two perceptions of reality then one is in danger of loosing touch with the unique strengths both universes offer and how, when understood, both can complement and nurture the growth of our individual psyches. We all think with the two parts of our brain (logical) and (dreaming) at the same time which is bipolar thinking, and some think with many more parts of their brain in parallel which is multipolar and which creates a new form of logic and science which is multi-logical that defines truth as becoming true or false in a more vague probabilistic manner depending on the data given for any given universe of being which defines our subconscious mind and our reality. Oxford University throws out any students or professors who dare teach logic based on five levels of truthhood that may define how our subconscious mind works, since then we may model our subconscious mind computationally so as to be able to engineer our present by means of computational dream engineering. I think along many different parallel timelines and possible realities all at once at every moment in time, since the future(s) and past(s) may always be changing due to time travel and other choices we all may make in the present(s). B.F. Skinner mentioned in his Walden II novel that in his communities the past is forgotten, and new archetypes of the present and future are engineered so that the members of the communities may live and think and dream in new ways. I do have a part of me which is purely scientific and logical, and another part which is mythological and dreaming, since we can not altogether forget our distant Jungian historical archetypes that we may have inherited from the past, which perhaps we should honor and upgrade and rewrite in a better way to make a better future for ourselves and others in the future and a better past for our distant ancestors who may be dependent on what we do and think today as we may be dependent on them. The Harry Potter novels speak about communities on Earth which make it illegal to speak about their communities if you wish to be a part of their community. In some communities which already know how to make cars fly, it is illegal to fly them due to the United Kingdom Ministry of Magic (Beam energy computer control of airspace on Earth) which prevents such cars from being made and used. However hover cars do not fly, they simply hover a few inches above the ground, and are not covered by UK laws that forbid flying cars. Baron Von Volsung, http://www.rhfweb.com/baron, Email: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html President Thomas D. Clark, Email: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html, Personal Web Page: http://www.rhfweb.com/personal New Age Production's Inc., http://www.rhfweb.com/newage Star Haven Community Services, at http://www.rhfweb.com/sh Radiation Health Foundation Trust at http://www.rhfweb.com/ Making a difference one person at a time Get informed. Inform others. -------------------------------1129849843 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In a message dated 10/20/2005 5:28:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time, orionwo= rks charter.net writes:
I think it would also be helpful to review and= test the contents of Inspired Writing (including what some would call "chan= neled" messages) in the same rigorous manner that any collected scientific "= data" must endure. This harkens back to my previous comment that if one can=20= not or is unwilling to distinguish the difference between the two perception= s of reality then one is in danger of loosing touch with the unique strength= s both universes offer and how, when understood, both can complement and nur= ture the growth of our individual psyches.
We all think with the two parts of our brain (logical) and (dreaming)&n= bsp;at the same time which is bipolar thinking, and some think with many mor= e parts of their brain in parallel which is multipolar and which creates a n= ew form of logic and science which is multi-logical that defines truth=20= as becoming true or false in a more vague probabilistic manner dependin= g on the data given for any given universe of being which defines our subcon= scious mind and our reality. Oxford University throws out any students or pr= ofessors who dare teach logic based on five levels of truthhood th= at may define how our subconscious mind works, since then we may model our s= ubconscious mind computationally so as to be able to engineer our present by= means of computational dream engineering. 
 
I think along many different parallel timelines and possible realities=20= all at once at every moment in time, since the future(s) and past(s) may alw= ays be changing due to time travel and other choices we all may make in the=20= present(s).   B.F. Skinner mentioned in his Walden II novel that i= n his communities the past is forgotten, and new archetypes of the present a= nd future are engineered so that the members of the communities may live and= think and dream in new ways.
 
I do have a part of me which is purely scientific and logical, and anot= her part which is mythological and dreaming, since we can not altogether for= get our distant Jungian historical archetypes that we may have inherited fro= m the past, which perhaps we should honor and upgrade and rewrite in a bette= r way to make a better future for ourselves and others in the future and a b= etter past for our distant ancestors who may be dependent on what=20= we do and think today as we may be dependent on them. 
 
The Harry Potter novels speak about communities on Earth which make it=20= illegal to speak about their communities if you wish to be a part of their c= ommunity.  In some communities which already know how to make cars fly,= it is illegal to fly them due to the United Kingdom Ministry of Magic (Beam= energy computer control of airspace on Earth)  which prevents such car= s from being made and used.  However hover cars do not fly, they simply= hover a few inches above the ground, and are not covered by UK laws that fo= rbid flying cars. 
 
Baron Von Volsung, http://www.rhfweb.com/baron, Email: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html
President Thomas D. Clark,= Email: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html,
Pers= onal Web Page: http://www.rhfweb.com/personal
New Age Productio= n's Inc., http://www.rhfweb.com/newage
Star Haven Community Service= s, at = http://www.rhfweb.com/sh
Radiation Health Foundation Trust at http://www.rhfweb= .com/

Making a difference one person at a time
Get informed= . Inform others.
-------------------------------1129849843-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 20 16:19:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9KNJJgb029397; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 16:19:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9KNJEYX029349; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 16:19:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 16:19:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051020185343.042eccc0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 19:18:15 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Jed Predicting a "gradual extinction" of Cold Fusion? In-Reply-To: <00d201c5d5c7$a408de60$a4b1e118 D54BYG11> References: <007e01c5d50d$c70daae0$a4b1e118 D54BYG11> <6.2.1.2.2.20051020115037.04552590 pop.mindspring.com> <00d201c5d5c7$a408de60$a4b1e118 D54BYG11> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63976 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Coviello wrote: >I had no idea that the situation was that dire for the ICCFs. I hope >there were some late participants planning on coming to this year's ICCF >in Japan. What was the high water mark for the ICCF conferences? Judging by the group photo I would say it was ICCF-3, in Japan. That was also the peak in the number of papers submitted to the proceedings. I have a handy index EndNote index of papers developed by Britz and Storms. It may not have every single paper, but here are totals for each ICCF conference: 1, 38 2, 62 3, 102 4, 93 5, 77 6, 70 7, 93 8, 69 9, 94 10, 93 11, 68 As I said, after ICCF-7, many of the papers are rehashes of previous work, or weird theory papers, or the like. Hot air speculation, rather than laboratory results. >I feel momentum in cold fusion, momentum that will not be stopped until >cold fusion enters the mainstream either through undeniable experimental >results or commercialization. . . . I wish I could feel the same wave of the future approaching, but alas I do not. There is one hopeful sign. Interest in LENR-CANR.org appears to be at a steady state. We may even be seeing a modest uptick in the number of readers, although this could be because we are now in the middle of the academic semester. I updated the graphs recently, here: http://lenr-canr.org/News.htm#Downloads Over the past year our audience has shifted somewhat from the US to Europe, Russia, China and India. (There is also a mirror site in China, at Tsinghua U., but the university has no way to measure how many people are accessing it.) Lately we have seen a lot of interest from people South America. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 20 16:32:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9KNWMI5010005; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 16:32:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9KNWL4b009961; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 16:32:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 16:32:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051020192933.04639830 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 19:31:45 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Jed Predicting a "gradual extinction" of Cold Fusion? In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20051020185343.042eccc0 pop.mindspring.com> References: <007e01c5d50d$c70daae0$a4b1e118 D54BYG11> <6.2.1.2.2.20051020115037.04552590 pop.mindspring.com> <00d201c5d5c7$a408de60$a4b1e118 D54BYG11> <6.2.1.2.2.20051020185343.042eccc0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <9Be8eC.A.ZbC.DkCWDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63977 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here is another way of looking at this. At ICCF-11 there were 68 papers, but only 11 or 12 new authors, and only a few of them presented experimental results. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 20 16:35:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9KNZMQV012517; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 16:35:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9KNZK1N012486; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 16:35:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 16:35:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=1Idh1DWtYatOIwTBShDvrV9+UIa7iKlZ7I4N1Yg5E8MAId1H2Qk/ugC8mKfVDO9GdiXMgEo4Ajq2rgjkdZ77uoLZJMHSrybCJOa28txjHqhkKHrSu8EGZGq7IVjKAVp/AFIsEbet43gbjMGdmYxbSBmRzDmlo7VbXmXk0NZr9fs= ; Message-ID: <20051020232820.21336.qmail web34901.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 16:28:20 -0700 (PDT) From: hank goering Subject: Re: The Cheapest Way To Fix The Energy Crisis (and lots of other crises) To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <002301c5d5c5$d9117240$ad82163f oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63978 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Kyle Mcallister wrote: >>If 1/100th of the money and time spent on these >>schemes was used to develop a sterility drug, and if >>the drug were deposited around the world, maybe by a >>platoon of satellites in polar orbit, it would give >>humanity a bright, uncrowded future. > > > Which part of humanity? Which parts/races are selected to be fertile? That is a good question. If we had the means to target races differently, I suggest that the obvious race to be given the 'full treatment' would be orientals, who make up a disproportionate number of people. However, it is a topic full of pitfalls, and the best way might be simply to let the infertility drug fall gently and equally among everyone, so that orientals would end up being 1/6 of their present numbers, whites 1/6, and so on. > > >>Let's say we wanted the world's population to decline >>to 1 billion. Concoct the drug to sterilize 90 of 100 >>women, or 98 of 100, or whatever it took, and watch >>the population decline. > > > And watch the population percentage drastically move towards the elderly as > no "a smaller" > replacement workforce is born. Oh....but you'd probably just 'get rid' of > the elderly excess, right? Why would you think it necessary? You appear to have reading problems; obviously, and as I stated, those alive after the culling took hold would live off the fat of the land, the elderly included. > > Nice name....Goering. A sadly childish remark. > > Seriously, if anyone actually tries to implement something this evil, they > must be eliminated. Clearly there would be people such as yourself who objected rather strongly to the idea, which is why I believe it would have to be carried out in secret, by a government, or a powerful agency of a government, which had not only the technical means to perform the operation, but the power to keep it a secret. George Bush has an opportunity, a short-lived one whose window is quickly closing, to go down in history as one of mankind's greatest benefactors. Unfortunately, he will not have the needed courage, and will end up being remembered as an idiot. Of course, this is only a noble dream until we have the 'anti-fertility' drug; I do not know the state of the art, but suspect it is further along than is publicly known. I might mention again that a second, much faster, perhaps even more desirable, means of achieving the goal, is by deliberately spreading a deadly disease; one, say, with a mortality of 95 percent. I suspect that this art also is much further developed than we know about, and by more governments. My guess is that by using this method it is also *much* easier to target specific races: slanty eyes, or dark skin, or some obscure gene that marks you out. > This is a page right out of hardcore Nazism. Nazi, Schmazi: a tired, overworked cliche to pin on anybody who differs just a little too much from your opinions about anything. Something drastic must be done soon, or we will be living in a termatary, with or without cold fusion. > > --Kyle > > __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 20 16:58:42 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9KNw5Db025254; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 16:58:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9KNw4rq025247; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 16:58:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 16:58:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [68.217.9.118] X-Originating-Email: [caliostro1795 hotmail.com] X-Sender: caliostro1795 hotmail.com In-Reply-To: <20051020232820.21336.qmail web34901.mail.mud.yahoo.com> From: "Alex Caliostro" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Cheapest Way To Fix The Energy Crisis (and lots of other crises) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 17:57:43 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Oct 2005 23:57:43.0289 (UTC) FILETIME=[0FAECE90:01C5D5D2] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63979 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >From: hank goering >That is a good question. If we had the means to target >races differently, I suggest that the obvious race to >be given the 'full treatment' would be orientals, who >make up a disproportionate number of people. (you know, of course, that donald sutherland did not immediately recognize elliot gould) btw, the pc term is 'asians' are you g-d . . . william shockley - odds are the asians are closer to the hive mind creator interesting article on 'intelligent design': http://www.mcall.com/news/local/all-a1_5beheoct19,0,1126776.story?coll=all-news-hedhttp:/ would you prefer to be the 'intelligent shiva' or the 'laughing buddha'? _____ -alex ps better than a dyson! _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 20 19:08:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9L28E2P007920; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 19:08:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9L28CK0007899; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 19:08:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 19:08:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: 3,000 nuke plant plan, 50:50 split Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 22:15:56 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051020154104.045f8480 pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20051020154104.045f8480 pop.mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200510202215.56936.rockcast earthlink.net> Resent-Message-ID: <5zYATC.A.X7B.M2EWDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63980 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I have had a habit of including original posts when replying. Now I find that many readers have taken the words of others as my own simply becaus they did not read down to the part that I wrote. My KMail program in KDE puts right carat '>' characters on the extreme left of all parts of an e-mail that was written by others, and no prefacing characters to the left of the post writer's. So now I will have to change the way I post and hope my readers will know to whom I have replied from the other context. For nuclear power, everybody on this forum knows by now that I am a blunt and outspoken advocate for all things nuclear for the simple and single minded reason that it is the only power that we have right now whether fission or fusion cold or hot that we can take to space and have it with us to use. We simply cannot ride like Jules Verne on a cannonball to space and hope to live for long. Much less maneuver. I have only to add to Jed's fine post that we might as well build all the nuclear that we need and not worry that our materials or fuel will be stolen or misappropriated an used against us. The folks that mean us ill can get this from around the world. Two prime places probably are North Korea and Pakistan acting as public go betweens for a large and silent supplier, probably China. I have no proof of this, just a feeling from reading news reports from all over the world for many years. Recently China has been trying to lock up the uranium resources of Australia where forty percent of all the world's supply is located. We may want to look into building a full breeder program to extend the life of the supplies we are likely to be left with. The Chinese and the Japanese are. Standing Bear From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 20 19:47:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9L2lJlh004078; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 19:47:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9L2lHDK004049; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 19:47:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 19:47:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 22:43:42 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Say it ain't so In-reply-to: To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_09RiGYSsgqL16mWUsNhm1g)" User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63981 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --Boundary_(ID_09RiGYSsgqL16mWUsNhm1g) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT If it is a really big asteroid I doubt a small warhead would split it. I think boring into the surface before detonation would result in a more controlled thrust then a detonation on or near the surface. Harry leaking pen wrote: penetration would be easy. an object that distant, just escape velocity would be enough to punch pretty deep, and with extra fuel, we can get missiles going pretty darn fast. its a matter of keeping the bomb intact, and the fact that penetration would shatter it, which would STILL be bad. we're talking moving, not blowing up. On 10/20/05, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: Harry Veeder wrote: > Such technology may be useful for diverting large asteroids on a > collisions course with earth. Unfortunately the "ground-penetrating" bombs are somewhat misleadingly named. They're really just big darts, heavy and pointed at one end, dropped from a high altitude and carried down by gravity. They "penetrate" because they've got a lot of momentum and a narrow point and they just punch a hole in the ground. In consequence there's no way we could get one to "penetrate" into an asteroid in order to split it, for instance -- the bombs can't dig or drill their way in and they don't have the kind of propulsion system they'd need to let them push their way in. You'd need to start over from scratch to design one that would "penetrate" an unearthly body. > Harry > > leaking pen wrote: > > they ARE still researching battlefield nukes, and the elimination > of fallout is being done by the fact that the ones being developed > are ground penetrating bunker busters. make a nice glass cave > thats self sealing. > > On 10/19/05, *Stephen A. Lawrence* wrote: > > > > thomas malloy wrote: > > > My friend was going on about the Bali bomb having been a nuke. > > Nonsense, I replied, if it was, there would be radioactivity. My > > friend countered that this was a clean atom bomb. My reply > was, this > > doesn't exist. Send me the URL, which he did, see > > http://joevialls.net/nuke/bali_micro_nuke.htm . The first > red flag was > > Zionist plot, like the Israelis have nothing better to do > than blow up > > night clubs in the pacific. > > Right, well said. > > Real mico-nukes are hard to produce. The article mentions the > object > achieved "critical mass" -- no, not really, micro-nukes don't > do that in > the conventional sense. They need to be imploded to extreme > density, as > I understand it, by a perfectly shaped, very powerful trigger > charge in > the form of a spherical shell of high explosive which > compresses the > fissile material to extreme density, in order to get a chain > reaction > going without requiring a critical mass. (Critical mass under > ordinary > conditions is something on the order of 30 pounds of uranium, > so says > Wikipedia, and it makes for quite a good-sized "bang" -- not > "micro" at > all.) > > Research to produce really small versions of such devices > would be a > major project, and IIRC it has (supposedly) not been done: the > U.S. > abandoned research into battlefield nukes (which is what we're > talking > about here) quite some time back because it conflicted with > the tenets > of MAD. The Bush administration was going to restart said > research, but > I don't know if that actually happened; a lot of people found > the idea > pretty objectionable, because the existence of effective > battlefield > nukes would make it too easy to escalate a conventional war into a > nuclear one. As long as the first nuclear step is a _big_ > step it's > less likely that anybody will take it (or so goes the theory). > > As to radiation, it's really unclear how you'd go about > eliminating the > radiation burst when the bomb goes off. Like, really, _really_ > unclear. It's also unclear how you eliminate _all_ fallout, > which is > necessary if you are to fool everyone into thinking it wasn't > a nuclear > explosive when they examine the site afterwards. I mean, > what's the > uranium/plutonium/whatnot turn into that's totally > non-radioactive? > Breaks all the way down into iron, maybe? Hmmm... > > But really, you said it all, up top: Anyone who starts by > asserting > this is a "Zionist plot" is already lost in the weeds and I > think we can > disregard the rest of the page, because that initial assertion > makes no > sense. > > > > > > > > > --Boundary_(ID_09RiGYSsgqL16mWUsNhm1g) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Re: Say it ain't so If it is a really big asteroid I doubt a small warhead would split it.
I think boring into the surface before detonation would result in a more controlled
thrust then a detonation on or near the surface.

Harry


leaking pen wrote:

penetration would be easy.  an object that distant, just escape velocity would be enough to punch pretty deep, and with extra fuel, we can get missiles going pretty darn fast.  its a matter of keeping the bomb intact, and the fact that penetration would shatter it, which would STILL be bad.  we're talking moving, not blowing up.

On 10/20/05, Stephen A. Lawrence <salaw pobox.com> wrote:


Harry Veeder wrote:

> Such technology may be useful for diverting large asteroids on a
> collisions course with earth.

Unfortunately the "ground-penetrating" bombs are somewhat misleadingly
named.

They're really just big darts, heavy and pointed at one end, dropped
from a high altitude and carried down by gravity.  They "penetrate"
because they've got a lot of momentum and a narrow point and they just
punch a hole in the ground.

In consequence there's no way we could get one to "penetrate" into an
asteroid in order to split it, for instance -- the bombs can't dig or
drill their way in and they don't have the kind of propulsion system
they'd need to let them push their way in.  You'd need to start over
from scratch to design one that would "penetrate" an unearthly body.


> Harry
>
> leaking pen wrote:
>
>     they ARE still researching battlefield nukes, and the elimination
>     of fallout is being done by the fact that the ones being developed
>     are ground penetrating bunker busters.  make a nice glass cave
>     thats self sealing.
>
>     On 10/19/05, *Stephen A. Lawrence* <salaw pobox.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>         thomas malloy wrote:
>
>         > My friend was going on about the Bali bomb having been a nuke.
>         > Nonsense, I replied, if it was, there would be radioactivity. My
>         > friend countered that this was a clean atom bomb. My reply
>         was, this
>         > doesn't exist. Send me the URL, which he did, see
>         > http://joevialls.net/nuke/bali_micro_nuke.htm . The first
>         red flag was
>         > Zionist plot, like the Israelis have nothing better to do
>         than blow up
>         > night clubs in the pacific.
>
>         Right, well said.
>
>         Real mico-nukes are hard to produce.  The article mentions the
>         object
>         achieved "critical mass" -- no, not really, micro-nukes don't
>         do that in
>         the conventional sense.  They need to be imploded to extreme
>         density, as
>         I understand it, by a perfectly shaped, very powerful trigger
>         charge in
>         the form of a spherical shell of high explosive which
>         compresses the
>         fissile material to extreme density, in order to get a chain
>         reaction
>         going without requiring a critical mass.  (Critical mass under
>         ordinary
>         conditions is something on the order of 30 pounds of uranium,
>         so says
>         Wikipedia, and it makes for quite a good-sized "bang" -- not
>         "micro" at
>         all.)
>
>         Research to produce really small versions of such devices
>         would be a
>         major project, and IIRC it has (supposedly) not been done: the
>         U.S.
>         abandoned research into battlefield nukes (which is what we're
>         talking
>         about here) quite some time back because it conflicted with
>         the tenets
>         of MAD.  The Bush administration was going to restart said
>         research, but
>         I don't know if that actually happened; a lot of people found
>         the idea
>         pretty objectionable, because the existence of effective
>         battlefield
>         nukes would make it too easy to escalate a conventional war into a
>         nuclear one.  As long as the first nuclear step is a _big_
>         step it's
>         less likely that anybody will take it (or so goes the theory).
>
>         As to radiation, it's really unclear how you'd go about
>         eliminating the
>         radiation burst when the bomb goes off.  Like, really, _really_
>         unclear.  It's also unclear how you eliminate _all_ fallout,
>         which is
>         necessary if you are to fool everyone into thinking it wasn't
>         a nuclear
>         explosive when they examine the site afterwards.  I mean,
>         what's the
>         uranium/plutonium/whatnot turn into that's totally
>         non-radioactive?
>         Breaks all the way down into iron, maybe?  Hmmm...
>
>         But really, you said it all, up top:  Anyone who starts by
>         asserting
>         this is a "Zionist plot" is already lost in the weeds and I
>         think we can
>         disregard the rest of the page, because that initial assertion
>         makes no
>         sense.
>
>         >
>         >
>
>
>
>




--Boundary_(ID_09RiGYSsgqL16mWUsNhm1g)-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 20 20:13:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9L3CWvc016193; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 20:12:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9L3CURv016167; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 20:12:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 20:12:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Cold Fusion scalability Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 23:20:15 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051020154104.045f8480 pop.mindspring.com> <200510202215.56936.rockcast@earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <200510202215.56936.rockcast earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200510202320.15249.rockcast earthlink.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j9L3CDIQ016072 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63982 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >From looking at several reports, it appears that cold fusion cells produce some excess power in the range of 0.5~0.9 watts per cell. Now, since we are assuming fusion reactions and not chemical, than it follows that any one cell would have enough reaction mass even if shrunk to a very small size to last for years. That leads to two questions: Do these cells need constant attention for every cell? How large an array of these cells can be built in how small a box? If the answer to the first is no, then CF 'batteries' become possible. And if the answer to the second is quite a small box, then practical power supplies can be made. Anybody? 'Beehive' type batteries maybe? Standing Bear From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 20 21:50:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9L4ngDP023343; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 21:49:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9L4nepQ023329; Thu, 20 Oct 2005 21:49:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 21:49:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=dViesqX8nfglcq3bVVG1K2mdE24F2HMNx9IRP4ydM+VhEY/LxWjZDJGo6WsgaoyhEitL4MGs2NGqz7CoJ71BCr/JbGe2PAxiw20iLbJH0JPpM9Fd5gdwrr8OJsSIENXSed8nYJdlQBp5IjnCbd7gRzqBivBDIT+RhtHXx8QuGzc= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 21:49:21 -0700 From: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Say it ain't so In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_8095_4718735.1129870161309" References: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63983 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_8095_4718735.1129870161309 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline it would, because then youd have the shaft acting as a channel. but... have you SEEN the ground around an underground test? the concussive wave shatter= s rock miles away. in space, without a contraint, and a limit to how far the energy could be dissapated? a mile wide asteroid would shatter if it were rocky. mettalic, not so much, but it would still break up. On 10/20/05, Harry Veeder wrote: > > If it is a really big asteroid I doubt a small warhead would split it. > I think boring into the surface before detonation would result in a more > controlled > thrust then a detonation on or near the surface. > > Harry > > > leaking pen wrote: > > penetration would be easy. an object that distant, just escape velocity > would be enough to punch pretty deep, and with extra fuel, we can get > missiles going pretty darn fast. its a matter of keeping the bomb intact, > and the fact that penetration would shatter it, which would STILL be bad. > we're talking moving, not blowing up. > > On 10/20/05, *Stephen A. Lawrence* wrote: > > > > Harry Veeder wrote: > > > Such technology may be useful for diverting large asteroids on a > > collisions course with earth. > > Unfortunately the "ground-penetrating" bombs are somewhat misleadingly > named. > > They're really just big darts, heavy and pointed at one end, dropped > from a high altitude and carried down by gravity. They "penetrate" > because they've got a lot of momentum and a narrow point and they just > punch a hole in the ground. > > In consequence there's no way we could get one to "penetrate" into an > asteroid in order to split it, for instance -- the bombs can't dig or > drill their way in and they don't have the kind of propulsion system > they'd need to let them push their way in. You'd need to start over > from scratch to design one that would "penetrate" an unearthly body. > > > > Harry > > > > leaking pen wrote: > > > > they ARE still researching battlefield nukes, and the elimination > > of fallout is being done by the fact that the ones being developed > > are ground penetrating bunker busters. make a nice glass cave > > thats self sealing. > > > > On 10/19/05, *Stephen A. Lawrence* wrote: > > > > > > > > thomas malloy wrote: > > > > > My friend was going on about the Bali bomb having been a nuke. > > > Nonsense, I replied, if it was, there would be radioactivity. My > > > friend countered that this was a clean atom bomb. My reply > > was, this > > > doesn't exist. Send me the URL, which he did, see > > > http://joevialls.net/nuke/bali_micro_nuke.htm . The first > > red flag was > > > Zionist plot, like the Israelis have nothing better to do > > than blow up > > > night clubs in the pacific. > > > > Right, well said. > > > > Real mico-nukes are hard to produce. The article mentions the > > object > > achieved "critical mass" -- no, not really, micro-nukes don't > > do that in > > the conventional sense. They need to be imploded to extreme > > density, as > > I understand it, by a perfectly shaped, very powerful trigger > > charge in > > the form of a spherical shell of high explosive which > > compresses the > > fissile material to extreme density, in order to get a chain > > reaction > > going without requiring a critical mass. (Critical mass under > > ordinary > > conditions is something on the order of 30 pounds of uranium, > > so says > > Wikipedia, and it makes for quite a good-sized "bang" -- not > > "micro" at > > all.) > > > > Research to produce really small versions of such devices > > would be a > > major project, and IIRC it has (supposedly) not been done: the > > U.S. > > abandoned research into battlefield nukes (which is what we're > > talking > > about here) quite some time back because it conflicted with > > the tenets > > of MAD. The Bush administration was going to restart said > > research, but > > I don't know if that actually happened; a lot of people found > > the idea > > pretty objectionable, because the existence of effective > > battlefield > > nukes would make it too easy to escalate a conventional war into a > > nuclear one. As long as the first nuclear step is a _big_ > > step it's > > less likely that anybody will take it (or so goes the theory). > > > > As to radiation, it's really unclear how you'd go about > > eliminating the > > radiation burst when the bomb goes off. Like, really, _really_ > > unclear. It's also unclear how you eliminate _all_ fallout, > > which is > > necessary if you are to fool everyone into thinking it wasn't > > a nuclear > > explosive when they examine the site afterwards. I mean, > > what's the > > uranium/plutonium/whatnot turn into that's totally > > non-radioactive? > > Breaks all the way down into iron, maybe? Hmmm... > > > > But really, you said it all, up top: Anyone who starts by > > asserting > > this is a "Zionist plot" is already lost in the weeds and I > > think we can > > disregard the rest of the page, because that initial assertion > > makes no > > sense. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- "Monsieur l'abb=E9, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to ma= ke it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire ------=_Part_8095_4718735.1129870161309 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline it would, because then youd have the shaft acting as a channel.  but..= .  have you SEEN the ground around an underground test?  the conc= ussive wave shatters rock miles away.  in space, without a contraint, = and a limit to how far the energy could be dissapated?  a mile wide as= teroid would shatter if it were rocky.  mettalic, not so much, but it = would still break up.=20

On 10/20/05, Harry Veeder <eo200@fr= eenet.carleton.ca> wrote:
If it is a really big asteroid I= doubt a small warhead would split it.
I think boring into the surface b= efore detonation would result in a more controlled
thrust then a detonation on or near the surface.
=
Harry=20



leaking pen = wrote:

penetration would be easy.  an object that distant, just e= scape velocity would be enough to punch pretty deep, and with extra fuel, w= e can get missiles going pretty darn fast.  its a matter of keeping th= e bomb intact, and the fact that penetration would shatter it, which would = STILL be bad.  we're talking moving, not blowing up.=20

On 10/20/05, Stephen A. Lawrence <salaw pobox.com> wrote:


Harry Veeder wrote:

> Such technology may be = useful for diverting large asteroids on a
> collisions course with ea= rth.

Unfortunately the "ground-penetrating" bombs are some= what misleadingly
named.

They're really just big darts, heavy and pointed at one e= nd, dropped
from a high altitude and carried down by gravity.  They= "penetrate"
because they've got a lot of momentum and a narr= ow point and they just
punch a hole in the ground.

In consequence there's no way we cou= ld get one to "penetrate" into an
asteroid in order to split i= t, for instance -- the bombs can't dig or
drill their way in and they d= on't have the kind of propulsion system
they'd need to let them push their way in.  You'd need to start ov= er
from scratch to design one that would "penetrate" an uneart= hly body.


> Harry
>
> leaking pen wrote:
>=
>     they ARE still researching battlefield nukes, = and the elimination
>     of fallout is being don= e by the fact that the ones being developed
>    &nbs= p;are ground penetrating bunker busters.  make a nice glass cave
>     thats self sealing.
>
>  =    On 10/19/05, *Stephen A. Lawrence* <salaw pobox.com> wrote:=20
>
>
>
>        =  thomas malloy wrote:
>
>      &n= bsp;  > My friend was going on about the Bali bomb having been= a nuke.
>         > Nonse= nse, I replied, if it was, there would be radioactivity. My=20
>         > friend counte= red that this was a clean atom bomb. My reply
>    &nb= sp;    was, this
>      =    > doesn't exist. Send me the URL, which he did, see>         > http://joevialls.net/nuke/bali_micro_nuke.htm . The first
>  = ;       red flag was
>   = ;      > Zionist plot, like the Israelis h= ave nothing better to do
>        =  than blow up
>         = > night clubs in the pacific.=20
>
>         Right, wel= l said.
>
>         Rea= l mico-nukes are hard to produce.  The article mentions the
> &n= bsp;       object
>   &n= bsp;     achieved "critical mass" -- no,= not really, micro-nukes don't=20
>         do that in
>=         the conventional sense. &n= bsp;They need to be imploded to extreme
>     &nb= sp;   density, as
>      &nbs= p;  I understand it, by a perfectly shaped, very powerful trigger=
>         charge in=20
>         the form of a sphe= rical shell of high explosive which
>      &= nbsp;  compresses the
>       = ;  fissile material to extreme density, in order to get a chain>         reaction
> &nb= sp;       going without requiring a crit= ical mass.  (Critical mass under=20
>         ordinary
> &= nbsp;       conditions is something on t= he order of 30 pounds of uranium,
>      &nb= sp;  so says
>        &n= bsp;Wikipedia, and it makes for quite a good-sized "bang" -- not<= br>>         "micro" a= t=20
>         all.)
>
&= gt;         Research to produce rea= lly small versions of such devices
>      &n= bsp;  would be a
>       &nbs= p; major project, and IIRC it has (supposedly) not been done: the
&= gt;          U.S.
>         abandoned rese= arch into battlefield nukes (which is what we're
>    =      talking
>      = ;   about here) quite some time back because it conflicted w= ith
>         the tenets
&= gt;         of MAD.  The Bush = administration was going to restart said=20
>         research, but
&= gt;         I don't know if that ac= tually happened; a lot of people found
>     &nbs= p;   the idea
>       &n= bsp; pretty objectionable, because the existence of effective
> =         battlefield=20
>         nukes would make i= t too easy to escalate a conventional war into a
>    =      nuclear one.  As long as the first nucle= ar step is a _big_
>         = step it's
>         less like= ly that anybody will take it (or so goes the theory).=20
>
>         As to radi= ation, it's really unclear how you'd go about
>    &nb= sp;    eliminating the
>     =     radiation burst when the bomb goes off.  Like,= really, _really_
>         u= nclear.  It's also unclear how you eliminate _all_ fallout,=20
>         which is
> &= nbsp;       necessary if you are to fool= everyone into thinking it wasn't
>      &nb= sp;  a nuclear
>        =  explosive when they examine the site afterwards.  I mean,
>= ;         what's the=20
>         uranium/plutonium/= whatnot turn into that's totally
>      &nbs= p;  non-radioactive?
>       =   Breaks all the way down into iron, maybe?  Hmmm...
>=
>         But really, you sa= id it all, up top:  Anyone who starts by=20
>         asserting
> =         this is a "Zionist plo= t" is already lost in the weeds and I
>     =     think we can
>      =    disregard the rest of the page, because that initial asse= rtion
>         makes no
>  = ;       sense.
>
>  &nb= sp;      >
>     = ;    >
>
>
>
>







--
"Monsieur l'abb=E9, I detest what you write, but I would gi= ve my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" &nbs= p;Voltaire=20 ------=_Part_8095_4718735.1129870161309-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 21 00:05:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9L74i3t007632; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 00:04:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9L74god007617; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 00:04:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 00:04:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cold fusion with Ti Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 17:04:19 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <6a4hl1hg9cpshkt7k12cfvq2hmhrcv055e 4ax.com> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051019102938.0461deb0 pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20051019102938.0461deb0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta01ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.77.227] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Fri, 21 Oct 2005 07:04:18 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j9L74OIx007450 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63984 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Wed, 19 Oct 2005 10:29:56 -0400: Hi, [snip] >See: > >http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/Bernardinianomalouse.pdf > I was confused by the following: >The analyser accepted the detected signals only when they were above a >threshold energy value (~ 800 keV) and in coincidence within a pre-fixed resolution time >(< 500ns). It seems to me that a gamma emitted by the sample would intercept either one detector or the other (since the sample was between the detectors, and hence they are in opposite directions as far as the sample is concerned. Whereas external gammas have at least some chance of passing through both detectors. Therefore it seems to me that what they have measured is some of those external gammas, while carefully *excluding* most from their own sample. Only when their own sample emitted two separate gammas in opposite directions within 500 ns of one another would they be detected. Did I get it wrong, or did they? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 21 00:42:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9L7g9ML020821; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 00:42:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9L7g8Yn020806; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 00:42:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 00:42:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 02:42:01 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Another use of Fibonaci numbers Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63985 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I attended a sales lecture for a foreign currency exchange (Forex) predicting system last night. An economist came up with a algorithm based on the Fibonaci numbers. It is said to be quite accurate. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 21 01:36:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9L8Zxq6006391; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 01:36:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9L8XIYD005533; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 01:33:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 01:33:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002a01c5d61a$0d0ac2f0$0501a8c0 nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: References: <20051020232820.21336.qmail web34901.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: The Cheapest Way To Fix The Energy Crisis (and lots of other crises) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 09:32:58 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63986 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I don't think this "hank goering" person is joking folks! Hank, comparing you to the Nazis is not "sadly childish". Even the Nazis were not as bad as you Your expressed opinions are unutterably evil. To countenance wiping out 95% of humanity with a deliberately spread disease would only be sensible if a couple of conditions existed. 1) 95% of humanity was extreme fascists like yourself and 2) the disease could be made to target the defective genes or brains or consciences or whatever addles you and your ilk. Only then would it be justified Nick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 21 02:46:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9L9jWkS001712; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 02:45:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9L9jT14001680; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 02:45:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 02:45:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=NYzFgwOMpNnZuy+cYU2pHWEyNfzJvGC8807hA/NQ2xvGB6U9xr3nokJ5YA4TeDjG; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22005105218454860 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Cavorite vs The Space Elevator Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 03:45:04 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940fe503789290c04a2f109c8f64c73e728350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.8 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63987 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII No more than a millennia ago the last vestige of a mineral composed of a stable matter-antimatter compound that repelled gravity was prevalent on the earth. Manageable quantities of this material were used collectively to hoist monoliths weighing as much as several hundred tons into place. Apparently tethers/anchors were used used to keep this material from floating off into space, up until the time that some social turmoil prompted the release. Technical: The Proton consists of two up (+ time-dilated 1.43e-37 coulomb hypocharge) quark or string loop and one down ( - time-dilated 1.43e-37 coulomb hypocharge) quark or string loop which allows an earth-attractive 9.8 newtons/kilogram at the earth's surface The antimatter hypocharge results in an earth repelling force of 9.8 newtons/kilogram at the earth's surface. Obviously a compound (Cavorite Mineral Rock) could have many possible combinations. For instance, a basketball sized rock could have enough pull to carry a child off into space. yet a collection of these could be used to hoist a 50 ton rock into place. Might there be some of this material stashed away under an Egyptian or Mayan Pyramid? IFS ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

No more than a millennia ago the last vestige of a mineral composed
of a stable matter-antimatter compound that repelled gravity was prevalent on the earth.
 
Manageable quantities of this material were used collectively
 to hoist monoliths weighing as much as several hundred tons into place.
 
Apparently tethers/anchors were used used to keep this material from floating off into space,
up until the time that some social turmoil prompted the release.
 
Technical: 
 
The Proton consists of two up (+ time-dilated 1.43e-37 coulomb hypocharge) quark
or string loop and one down ( -  time-dilated 1.43e-37 coulomb hypocharge)  quark
or string loop which allows an earth-attractive  9.8 newtons/kilogram at the earth's surface
The antimatter hypocharge results in an earth repelling force of 9.8 newtons/kilogram at
the earth's surface.
Obviously a compound (Cavorite Mineral Rock) could have many possible combinations.
For instance, a basketball sized rock could have enough pull to carry a child off into space.
yet a collection of these could be used to hoist a 50 ton rock into place.
 
Might there be some of this material stashed away under an Egyptian or Mayan Pyramid?
 
IFS
 
 
 
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 21 06:31:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9LDUm4U020138; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 06:31:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9LDUlwM020087; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 06:30:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 06:30:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] X-Originating-Email: [caliostro1795 hotmail.com] X-Sender: caliostro1795 hotmail.com In-Reply-To: <002a01c5d61a$0d0ac2f0$0501a8c0 nixlaptop> From: "Alex Caliostro" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Cheapest Way To Fix The Energy Crisis (and lots of other crises) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 07:30:26 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 21 Oct 2005 13:30:26.0647 (UTC) FILETIME=[98E8BE70:01C5D643] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63988 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >From: "Nick Palmer" >I don't think this "hank goering" person is joking folks! > >Hank, comparing you to the Nazis is not "sadly childish". Even the Nazis >were not as bad as you Your expressed opinions are unutterably evil. To >countenance wiping out 95% of humanity with a deliberately spread disease >would only be sensible if a couple of conditions existed. 1) 95% of >humanity was extreme fascists like yourself and 2) the disease could be >made to target the defective genes or brains or consciences or whatever >addles you and your ilk. Only then would it be justified Herr Goering did not propose spreading disease - he proposed chemical sterilization - far more humane current conspiracy theory is that the illuminati wishes to dispose of 90% of the "useless eaters" it certainly solves the energy problem for several more years http://www.apfn.org/apfn/300.htm _____ -alex _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 21 06:49:01 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9LDmCBp003244; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 06:48:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9LDmAjg003201; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 06:48:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 06:48:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <4eo5rf$ajasst mxip26a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.97,239,1125892800"; d="scan'208"; a="355824541:sNHT21656764" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: OrionWorks Organization: OrionWorks To: CC: Subject: Re: The Cheapest Way To Fix The Energy Crisis (and lots of other crises) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 8:47:45 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63989 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Recent statements from goering: (Content edited because if found it sickening to read. Even my own sarcastic retorts couldn't stomach any more of this.) ... > I might mention again that a second, much faster, > perhaps even more desirable, means of achieving the > goal, is by deliberately spreading a deadly disease; > one, say, with a mortality of 95 percent. I suspect > that this art also is much further developed than we > know about, and by more governments. > > My guess is that by using this method it is also > *much* easier to target specific races: slanty eyes, > or dark skin, or some obscure gene that marks you out. > > > This is a page right out of hardcore Nazism. > > Nazi, Schmazi: a tired, overworked cliche to pin on > anybody who differs just a little too much from your > opinions about anything. > > Something drastic must be done soon, or we will be > living in a termatary, with or without cold fusion. Mr. Rothewell, I do not believe Mr. Goering is joking. Mr. Beaty, I try my best to be tolerant of the opinions of others, especially when I do not agree with their views. However, in this case, it is my personal opinion that this extremist be immediately banned from expressing any more of his personal views within the Vortex discussion group. He is not a contributor. He is preaching a philosoophy of the Ultimate Solution. I'm sure there are other nazi-like discussion groups where Goering can preach all the fanaticism he wants to the converted. He probablly already does, and decided to spread his wings a little. Time to get them clipped. Reagards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 21 06:51:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9LDoxBZ005176; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 06:51:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9LDou2R005123; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 06:50:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 06:50:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4358F0B1.6010208 iinet.net.au> Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 23:44:17 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Beaming microwave power from the moon References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051020135740.037f8040 pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20051020135740.037f8040 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63990 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: They're reinventing the whelel again. I have a full set of data on the orbital beam power technology designs built with luna material. These are 1969-79 designs. The program was designed 35+ years ago by * Gerard K. O'Neill* and the L5 society. The best place to place the solar cells is L5 not the moon. L5 has no night. http://www.ssi.org/high-frontier.html Check out the following web sites. http://www.islandone.org/ http://www.l5news.org/index.html http://www.nss.org/ Nasa is in the rear as we enter the straight. http://spacesolarpower.nasa.gov/ L5 socitety designs from the 1970's. Early image of a power sat. http://lifesci3.arc.nasa.gov/SpaceSettlement/spaceres/images/pic2.JPG The best power sat image. From Don Davis http://www.ssi.org/assets/images/Ch09p185.gif The space station at the bottom is 1 km long. A buildable with 1970's design. Coolest image of the design. http://www.ssi.org/assets/images/Ch09p180.gif The ground reciever array. Several miles across. http://www.ssi.org/assets/images/Ch09p172.gif Cows grazing under the reciever. http://www.ssi.org/assets/images/Ch09p175.gif See Don Davis' whole site for an overview. My new web site. http://www.geocities.com/vacoyecology/space.html has them linked. If we had not gone down the shuttle dead end we would have been building these technologies by now. We are not nutty! We're space cadets! I have a life membership in the National Space Society, and I have a design for a one g habatat on the moon and mars. I guess that makes me a ranking space cadet. Jed Rothwell wrote: > Here is a nutty idea. Inspired, but nutty. See: > > http://www.wired.com/news/technology/wireless_special/0,2914,69038-2,00.html?tw=wn_story_page_next1 > > > QUOTES: > > Criswell's concept is massive in scale: It would involve building > 20,000 to 30,000 reception stations on Earth to accept the power beams > and convert them into electricity that could be distributed to the > population (The solar panels would be constructed on the moon with raw > materials in the soil in "basically a glass-making process," he said). > > . . . > > Criswell predicts that the LSP system could produce a steady > 20-terawatt stream that he predicts the estimated 10 billion people > living on Earth by 2050 will need. "It actually provides you with such > clean, sustainable energy that we can correct our past errors," he > said. . . . > > > - Jed > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 21 07:03:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9LE39In013162; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 07:03:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9LE38wh013153; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 07:03:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 07:03:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <4enjqd$1iivk58 mxip17a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.97,239,1125892800"; d="scan'208"; a="1697632424:sNHT16769028" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: OrionWorks Organization: OrionWorks To: CC: Subject: Re: Electrostatic Hover Cars Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 9:02:44 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63991 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Baron sez: ... > The Harry Potter novels speak about communities on Earth which make it > illegal to speak about their communities if you wish to be a part of > their community. In some communities which already know how to make > cars fly, it is illegal to fly them due to the United Kingdom Ministry > of Magic (Beam energy computer control of airspace on Earth) which > prevents such cars from being made and used. However hover cars do > not fly, they simply hover a few inches above the ground, and are > not covered by UK laws that forbid flying cars. Since we are talking about the writings of weighty authors might I suggest another individual, Carl Sagan, specifically his book "Demon-Haunted World" - Chapter 10 titled: "The Dragon in my Garage." Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 21 07:14:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9LEE1o8019493; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 07:14:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9LEE0jc019473; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 07:14:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 07:14:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4358F795.8000007 iinet.net.au> Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 00:13:41 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: ICEs can't burn h2 References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63992 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: These guys are twits. We have known for decades that hydrogen powered cars need ceramic pistion heads, valves and liners. And the liners have been around for as many years! Do I need to come over there to them out? Their tanks cool and so is their wall paper. Alex Caliostro wrote: > bad news from united nuclear, inventors of the smart tank h2 storage > system > > http://www.switch2hydrogen.com/h2new.htm > > their test vehicles appear to be failing due to embrittlement -- not > totally unexpected > > maybe their parent site offers an alternative with this creative > wallpaper > > http://www.unitednuclear.com/lightlarge.htm > > i wonder how many joules per gallon they get > > _____ > -alex > > _________________________________________________________________ > FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now! > http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 21 07:27:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9LEQmA3026054; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 07:27:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9LEQjdo026030; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 07:26:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 07:26:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4358FA88.8070105 iinet.net.au> Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 00:26:16 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Imagining the FFF(TM) future-fuel-farm References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051019151644.0454aaf0 pop.mindspring.com> <010801c5d4ef$0e7b21b0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <017401c5d514$36ed22e0$6401a8c0@NuDell> In-Reply-To: <017401c5d514$36ed22e0$6401a8c0 NuDell> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63993 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I believe Brazil already has floating oil fired power station or two on the amazon river. It was used to power mining operations originally. Jones Beene wrote: > Below are the headlines that got me originally thinking about a > floating nuclear-powered ethanol + fertilizer plant ...but the FFF may > be one F too short for US aggies. > "Russia to Build World’s First Floating Nuclear Power Station for > $200,000" > http://www.mosnews.com/money/2005/09/09/floatingnuclearplant.shtml > Obviously the real numbers could not be 'that' low, but it does > demonstrate that there is likely to be an affordable window of > opportunity somewhere, using the expertise of the whole world to > create a sustainable liquid fuel. > Recently the idea of using this kind of smaller capacity fission > plant, in tandem with a combined fertilizer plant, fermentation plant, > and an ethanol distillation unit seemed even more interesting - 4 > floating factories anchored in a freshwater delta area - but where to > locate it? > Not in the USA - no way - that would take a decade for the regulators > to make up their mind, and big-oil would never allow this kind of > competition anyway. > Nope - somewhere a) sunny, 2) wet 3) poor 4) no-oil interests 4) and > with officials who can be easily bought(oops, I mean persuaded)....to > act hastily for the good of all concerned. > Is there any better site than about 50 miles up in the river delta > area of some large equatorial river, where biomass can be grown, > harvested, fermented, and distilled using waste heat from safe nuclear > reactors - combined with the capability of making massive amounts of > nitrogen based fertilizer, to make the whole endeavor sustainable? > Several synergies are possible here - > 1) A muddy and heavily polluted river is preferable, so long as the > "pollution" is algae-based not chemical toxins - as green algae and > suspended clay are the perfect feedstock for carrying added nitrogen, > and can be converted cheaply into a most excellent fertilizer. High > yields will be all but guaranteed - plus you can then claim that your > are cleaning up the river - and plus - the algae will really bloom > with the added reactor heat. > 2) even before the excess heat is used to create the algae bloom, it > is used to distill the ethanol from bio-mash - so that no combustion > is necessary. All the energy used is either nuclear or ethanol based > and local. > 3) Converted ocean firefighter pumpers can be used to spray the > (moated) fields of e-grass with lots of fertilizer, following every > cutting, maybe three cutting per year, which can also be accomplished > from floating harvester barges - all of these being ethanol powered, > of course, with converted gasoline engines. > Anybody know where to raise about a quarter-billion to finance this > baby? Five year payback (following completion) > ¡Ay, Caramba! And... 180 proof > ethanol for 45 cents a gallon guaranteed - carbon neutral - US wages > paid, and only modest payola back to government officials ;-). May > have to peddle the stuff in Europe however, unless the US drops the tariff > Jones > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 21 07:27:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9LEQs1B026146; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 07:27:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9LEQr5S026126; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 07:26:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 07:26:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051021101906.04bd91a0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 10:26:26 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Beaming microwave power from the moon In-Reply-To: <4358F0B1.6010208 iinet.net.au> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051020135740.037f8040 pop.mindspring.com> <4358F0B1.6010208 iinet.net.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63994 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Wesley Bruce wrote: >They're reinventing the whelel again. I have a full set of data on the >orbital beam power technology designs built with luna material. These are >1969-79 designs. . . . Sure. The only nutty part is beaming the power all the way from the moon. That is too far! I suppose the beam would spread out and affect everyone. Isn't L5 kind of far, too? Maybe we could intercept and reconstitute the beams close to earth. Using lunar material was probably a good idea back in 1979, but now I think we should give serious consideration to building a space elevator instead. That would lower the cost of sending materials from Earth so much that would be no need to go to the moon. As some readers here have pointed a space elevator is presently impossible. The carbon filament is not strong enough yet. But it looks like progress is being made, and we may reach that goal in a few years. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 21 07:49:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9LEnFpA008847; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 07:49:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9LEn9Nh008792; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 07:49:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 07:49:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Message-ID: <4358FFCA.3040803 iinet.net.au> Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 00:48:42 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Imagining the FFF(TM) future-fuel-farm References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051019151644.0454aaf0 pop.mindspring.com> <010801c5d4ef$0e7b21b0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <017401c5d514$36ed22e0$6401a8c0@NuDell> In-Reply-To: <017401c5d514$36ed22e0$6401a8c0 NuDell> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63995 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Are you aware of the bio-methane projects of the 1970's? See page 15 of this PDF http://www.pacaqua.org/Documents/Marine_Macroalgae_Culture.pdf I would love to renew this project in a much smaller and scalable form with electric pumps powered by the methane. The methane can be reacted with CO to make methanol fuel for easier storage and transport. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 21 08:04:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9LF3lWW023340; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 08:04:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9LF3UDw023103; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 08:03:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 08:03:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Message-ID: <4359031D.5020106 iinet.net.au> Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 01:02:53 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT: Aquatic speculations on human evolution References: <48u2fu$1e23f6c mxip06a.cluster1.charter.net> In-Reply-To: <48u2fu$1e23f6c mxip06a.cluster1.charter.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63996 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: OrionWorks wrote: > >I'm getting off-topic here (my apologies) but I couldn't resist bringing up a fascinating speculative book on human evolution I read back in the late 60s, "The Naked Ape" by Desmond Morris. In one of Desmond's chapters he made what I thought were convincing speculations claiming that some of our ancestors had adapted themselves to working within a water environment. Some of the most convincing human traits we currently possess that Desmond brought up to support an aquatic heritage are: > >1) Fat deposits over most of our body: Fat deposits smooth the body's surface area causing less drag while gliding through water. Desmond stated that our nearest genetic relatives, Chimps, Gorillas, etc... have no fat deposits in the same manner that we possess. They possess have far less fat. (I suspect most simians don't enjoy taking baths either, with a few notible exceptions!) > >2) Loss of hair: Loss of hair adds to increased efficiency in swimming through water. Less drag. > >3) Direction of hair: What hair that is left on human body parts, particular hair on the back, neck and shoulders possesses a curious directional flow patter that would match how water would naturally flow past the body surfaces as one propelled oneself through water. > >As for me, like many humans, I love swimming, diving, and splashing about and was fortunate to have grown up in environments that allowed me quality time to snorkel and dive in the ocean. Guam, particularly. I can still hold my breath under water for more than two minutes if I put some mental effort into it. > > >Regards, >Steven Vincent Johnson >www.OrionWorks.com > > > *Elaine Morgan is the major proponent of the theory* http://www.primitivism.com/aquatic-ape.htm *Jim Moore its major opponent on the web* http://www.aquaticape.org/ I think their both wrong. We are wonderfully made. I have Elaines Aquatic Ape book somewhere. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 21 08:08:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9LF7nCa028914; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 08:08:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9LF7jhq028863; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 08:07:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 08:07:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=A+sqfmhNWB1sxmMkcrMg7Ia+arEtspLOUACl48JeDzaeOkQvXZtWVttj49DalDLx; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22005105211471830 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: World Mysteries & Cold Dusion Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 09:07:18 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940d7f684c55d5ccf80ded5dce002e7d860350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.120.102 Resent-Message-ID: <3r_TD.A.zCH.ARQWDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63997 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Interesting stuff, many mysterious places. Great pictures too. http://www.world-mysteries.com/ "The Great Pyramid has lent its name as a sort of by-word for paradoxes; and, as moths to a candle, so are theorisers attracted to it. The very fact that the subject was so generally familiar, and yet so little was accurately known about it, made it the more enticing; there were plenty of descriptions from which to choose, and yet most of them were so hazy that their support could be claimed for many varying theories." CF isn't listed yet. :-) FJS ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Interesting stuff, many mysterious places. Great pictures too.
 
 
"The Great Pyramid has lent its name as a sort of by-word for paradoxes; and, as moths to a candle, so are theorisers attracted to it. The very fact that the subject was so generally familiar, and yet so little was accurately known about it, made it the more enticing; there were plenty of descriptions from which to choose, and yet most of them were so hazy that their support could be claimed for many varying theories."
 
CF isn't listed yet.  :-)
 
FJS
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 21 08:47:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9LFktg2020123; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 08:47:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9LFkrxB020096; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 08:46:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 08:46:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051021111621.055841b0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 11:46:19 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: 3,000 nuke plant plan, 50:50 split In-Reply-To: <200510202215.56936.rockcast earthlink.net> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051020154104.045f8480 pop.mindspring.com> <200510202215.56936.rockcast earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <_Ju4PB.A.35E.s1QWDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63998 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Standing Bear wrote: >For nuclear power, everybody on this forum knows by now that I am a blunt >and outspoken advocate for all things nuclear . . . As such, you would be more credible if you would acknowledge that nuclear power has significant drawbacks and dangers. If we build thousands of new reactors, it seems likely there will be several more catastrophic accidents such as Three Mile Island and Chernobyl. (Three Mile Island was a financial disaster and it came close to being a physical disaster as well.) You are enthusiastic about fission. I support it reluctantly, because I think it is the least dangerous choice. >for the simple and single minded >reason that it is the only power that we have right now whether fission or >fusion cold or hot that we can take to space and have it with us to use. When I was researching food factories, the people I spoke to at NASA about growing food aboard spaceships all agreed that nuclear fission is the only practical energy source for a long-range, long duration manned space exploration. Unfortunately, I think it would be crazy to put a uranium fission reactor onboard a rocket ship, and I do not know what else would suitable. Pu-238 is way too expensive for a large scale reactor. There does not seem to be a safe, practical alternative at present. Needless to say, cold fusion would be ideal. >I have only to add to Jed's fine post that we might as well build all the >nuclear that we need and not worry that our materials or fuel will be >stolen or misappropriated an used against us. If we do not worry about these things we should *never* build another reactor! We need to pay a large group of highly competent experts to worry about these things 24 hours a day. It is true that radwaste and "loose nukes" in other countries, especially Russia, or a greater immediate threat to the US than our own reactors. For that reason, we should vigorously continue with the joint cooperative project to secure Russian nuclear weapons. Unfortunately, the Bush administration has been lax about this program. (This is part of a pattern. They also been unforgivably lax about other major threats, such as weak levees in New Orleans, global warming, and avian flu. I get the impression these people do not like dealing with problems.) >We may want to look into building a full breeder program to extend the >life of the supplies we are likely to be left with. The Chinese and the >Japanese are. We should definitely look closely at the Japanese breeder program! Let us learn from their mistakes. After Chernobyl, this is the second most colossal fiasco in the history of nuclear energy. It is a terrific waste of money. So was the US breeder program, at the Enrico Fermi reactor. I know little about breeder reactors, but my impression is that we should not try to make them at this stage in the development of reactor technology. There is plenty of uranium, so even though we only "burn" a small fraction of it with today's reactors, we should continue to do so for now, put aside the spent fuel in a safe, accessible location, and let our great-grandchildren deal with it. If people still need fission reactors 200 years from now, they will presumably know much more about using them than we do, because they will have more experience. They will be in a better position to develop safe, cost-effective breeder reactors. We should concentrate instead on building inherently safe designs, and on spent fuel disposal. Generally speaking, it is not a good idea to put off problems and let future generations deal with them. This is irresponsible. However, in some cases it is likely that future generations will be better positioned to fix the problem, and there are short-term solutions available to us which will avoid excessive damage or pollution. As long as we deal with nuclear waste responsibly, and we avoid creating a gigantic pile of the stuff scattered everywhere across the landscape in unmarked landfills, I do not think we should not worry too much about what will happen to it in 500 years. I would rather leave our great-grandchildren this problem than leave them an ecology which has been devastated by global warming. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 21 08:55:21 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9LFsTU1025446; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 08:54:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9LFsSuN025428; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 08:54:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 08:54:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003d01c5d657$a9f32430$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <4358F795.8000007@iinet.net.au> Subject: Re: ICEs can't burn h2 Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 08:54:04 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_003A_01C5D61C.FD186570" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/63999 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003A_01C5D61C.FD186570 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Wesley Bruce writes > These guys are twits. We have known for decades that hydrogen powered=20 > cars need ceramic piston heads, valves and liners. And the liners have = > been around for as many years!=20 Its even easier than that. It was learned years ago that the "ceramic" = itself does not have to be a separate part, but can easily be derived = from the underlying aluminum in the pistons and cylinders. Normally = aluminum is anodized with a thin oxide coating to prevent further = oxidation in service, but to further prevent hydrogen imbrittlement - = all one needs to do is add a little more magnesium to the die-casting = alloy and then heavily anodize. In all of nature there is no better = containment for hydrogen than MgO or anodized magnesium. It does not = suffer embrittlement nor allow the underlying metal to suffer = embrittlement. I agree with Wesley that this web page must be a front = for unscrupulous fund-raisers of some kind, who have little engineering = background.=20 Anyway this does raise a very interesting issue about "why" H2 is such a = good fuel in the ICE.=20 Forget expensive fuel cells. Dead-end street (at least for now) -due to = precious metals! If you have hydrogen as a fuel, and decide to forego = its best use (fertilizer) then the easy answer, staring everyone in the = face these days is - just convert the traditional ICE to burn it.=20 Why layer on a completely new process (fuel cells) which are NOT more = efficient than the ICE, in practice? Sounds like a mischievous plot of = the petroleum industry to delay the hydrogen economy, doesn't it? There are many reason why burning H2 is more efficient in an ICE than = gasoline. Earlier I posted some information about *steam* being a = preferable medium for translating heat to work over CO2. It turns out = that although this is true, steam cannot account for the whole advantage = - but is advantageous to a lesser extent than was indicated. Due to the = overwhelming presence of nitrogen in the exhaust, steam can only raise = the Carnot efficiency at most 8-10 percentage points (that correction = thanks to RvS) and more complete combustion can account for another = substantial part of the answer to the higher efficiency.=20 However the greater percentage of steam in the exhaust does in = experiments make a more substantial difference in Carnot eff. due to a = third important reason. The complete answer to why the efficiency of = hydrogen is so incredibly high in an ICE must include "jerk" ! Jerk is a = more than an insult these days, if one applies its meaning to power = laws. Why do I say "incredible" ? hey, in their very first try, Ford (not a = powerhouse of innovation these days) was able to get 45% Carnot = efficiency out of a *small* converted ICE. I think 55% is possible - = which is double the efficiency of gasoline. For Ford to anything like = this on a first attempt must indicates that inertia can be overcome by = jerks ;-) More seriously, the third part of the "much greater efficiency" equation = probably goes back to a subject that we periodically allude to on vortex = - power laws and particularly power laws relating to kinetics. As Frank = Grimer has visualized, you have: dL/dT ......VELOCITY .......moving scenery out the car window =20 d2L/dT2 ....ACCELERATION ...being pushed back in ones seat as the plane = takes off =20 =20 d3L/dt3 ....JERK............Mmm..more difficult - being hit over the = head with a bottle perhaps? d4L/dT4 ....JOUNCE..........I have no feeling whatsoever for this or = high derivatives. "But the failure to visualize these higher order derivative is because = we are thinking in terms of straight line motion. If I think instead in = terms of circular motion, or better still, helical motions, then things = become very much easier. If I allow myself to be pinned to the wall of a fairground centrifuge = then I can experience being "pushed back in my seat on a continuous = basis. By imposing a circular motion on this circular motion to form an = open vortex helix I can visualize the next derivative, though I am well = past the age where I would want to experience it - and so on - and so = forth." Anyway - the possibility of some of the hydrogen shock wave being = converted to Jerk or Jounce is a definite possibility here. A free = proton, during the early stages of combustion has what - 46 times more = mobility than CO2 - and that is if there is no power law in effect. The = free proton during combustion may be a key to the higher efficiency, and = there are ways to maximize this effect - ways that the folks at Ford = will never figure out on their own. BTW - why is Ford downplaying this H2 ICE advancement and still pursuing = the fuel cell as a viable option, when their own scientists have = admitted the fuel-cell is "dead-in-the-water" unless it can be made = without platinum (it can't, so far) ?=20 I don't have time to track down the details, but there is an oily smell = to it. Jones ------=_NextPart_000_003A_01C5D61C.FD186570 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Wesley Bruce writes
> These guys are twits. We have = known for=20 decades that hydrogen powered
> cars need ceramic piston heads, = valves=20 and liners. And the liners have
> been around for as many years!=20
 
Its even easier than that. It was = learned years ago=20 that the "ceramic" itself does not have to be a separate part, but = can=20 easily be derived from the underlying aluminum in the pistons and = cylinders.=20 Normally aluminum is anodized with a thin oxide coating to prevent = further=20 oxidation in service, but to further prevent hydrogen imbrittlement - = all one=20 needs to do is add a little more magnesium to the die-casting alloy and = then=20 heavily anodize. In all of nature there is no better containment for = hydrogen=20 than MgO or anodized magnesium. It does not suffer embrittlement = nor allow=20 the underlying metal to suffer embrittlement. I agree with Wesley that = this web=20 page must be a front for unscrupulous fund-raisers of some kind, who = have little=20 engineering background.
 
Anyway this does raise a very = interesting issue=20 about "why" H2 is such a good fuel in the ICE.
 
Forget expensive fuel cells. Dead-end = street (at=20 least for now) -due to precious metals! If you have hydrogen as a fuel, = and=20 decide to forego its best use (fertilizer) then the easy answer, staring = everyone in the face these days is - just convert the traditional ICE to = burn=20 it.
 
Why layer on a completely new process = (fuel cells)=20 which are NOT more efficient than the ICE, in practice? Sounds like a=20 mischievous plot of the petroleum industry to delay the hydrogen = economy,=20 doesn't it?
 
There are many reason why = burning H2 is more=20 efficient in an ICE than gasoline. Earlier I posted some information = about=20 *steam* being a preferable medium for translating heat to work over CO2. = It=20 turns out that although this is true, steam cannot account for the whole = advantage - but is advantageous to a lesser extent than was indicated. = Due to=20 the overwhelming presence of nitrogen in the exhaust, steam can only = raise the=20 Carnot efficiency at most 8-10 percentage points (that correction = thanks to=20 RvS) and more complete combustion can account for another substantial = part of=20 the answer to the higher efficiency.
 
However the greater percentage of steam = in the=20 exhaust does in experiments make a more substantial difference in Carnot = eff. due to  a third important reason. The complete = answer=20 to why the efficiency of hydrogen is so incredibly high in an ICE = must=20 include "jerk" ! Jerk is a more than an insult these days, if one = applies its=20 meaning to power laws.
 
Why do I say "incredible" ? hey, in = their very=20 first try, Ford (not a powerhouse of innovation these days) was able to = get 45%=20 Carnot efficiency out of a *small* converted ICE. I think 55% is = possible -=20 which is double the efficiency of gasoline. For Ford to anything like = this on a=20 first attempt must indicates that inertia can be overcome by jerks=20 ;-)
 
More seriously, the third part of the = "much greater=20 efficiency" equation probably goes back to a subject that we = periodically allude=20 to on vortex - power laws and particularly power laws relating to = kinetics. As=20 Frank Grimer has visualized, you have:

dL/dT ......VELOCITY .......moving scenery out the car=20 window    

d2L/dT2 ....ACCELERATION ...being = pushed=20 back in ones seat as the plane takes=20 off        

d3L/dt3=20 ....JERK............Mmm..more difficult - being hit over the head = with a=20 bottle perhaps?

d4L/dT4 ....JOUNCE..........I have no feeling = whatsoever=20  for this or high derivatives.

"But the failure to visualize = these=20 higher order derivative is because we are thinking in terms of = straight line motion. If I think instead in terms of circular motion, or = better  still, helical motions, then things become very much=20 easier.

If I allow myself to be pinned to the wall of a = fairground =20 centrifuge then I can experience being "pushed back in my  seat on = a=20 continuous basis. By imposing a circular motion  on this circular = motion to=20 form an open vortex helix I can  visualize the next derivative, = though I am=20 well past the  age where I would want to experience it - and so on = -=20 and  so forth."
 
Anyway - the possibility of some of the hydrogen shock wave being = converted=20 to Jerk or Jounce is a definite possibility here. A free proton, during = the=20 early stages of combustion has what - 46 times more mobility than CO2 - = and that=20 is if there is no power law in effect. The free proton during combustion = may be=20 a key to the higher efficiency, and there are ways to maximize this = effect -=20 ways that the folks at Ford will never figure out on their own.
 
BTW - why is Ford downplaying this H2 ICE advancement and still = pursuing=20 the fuel cell as a viable option, when their own scientists have = admitted the=20 fuel-cell is "dead-in-the-water" unless it can be made without platinum = (it=20 can't, so far) ?
 
I don't have time to track down the details, but there is an oily = smell to=20 it.
 
Jones
------=_NextPart_000_003A_01C5D61C.FD186570-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 21 08:57:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9LFuifs027064; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 08:57:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9LFudve027003; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 08:56:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 08:56:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: ThomasClark123 aol.com Message-ID: <19e.3ebd8ec1.308a6997 aol.com> Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 11:56:07 EDT Subject: Re: Electrostatic Hover Cars To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1129910167" X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5039 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64000 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -------------------------------1129910167 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/21/2005 10:04:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time, orionworks charter.net writes: Since we are talking about the writings of weighty authors might I suggest another individual, Carl Sagan, specifically his book "Demon-Haunted World" - Chapter 10 titled: "The Dragon in my Garage." Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com Thank you for the reference to Carl Sagan. I liked his Contact -------------------------------1129910167 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In a message dated 10/21/2005 10:04:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time, orionw= orks charter.net writes:
Since we are talking about the writings of wei= ghty authors might I suggest another individual, Carl Sagan, specifically hi= s book "Demon-Haunted World" - Chapter 10 titled: "The Dragon in my Garage."=

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
Thank you for the reference to Carl Sagan.  I liked his Contact -------------------------------1129910167-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 21 08:59:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9LFx4pP028938; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 08:59:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9LFwpCl028784; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 08:58:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 08:58:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] X-Originating-Email: [caliostro1795 hotmail.com] X-Sender: caliostro1795 hotmail.com In-Reply-To: <4358F795.8000007 iinet.net.au> From: "Alex Caliostro" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: ICEs can't burn h2 Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 09:58:21 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 21 Oct 2005 15:58:21.0691 (UTC) FILETIME=[42D8FCB0:01C5D658] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64001 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >From: Wesley Bruce >These guys are twits. We have known for decades that hydrogen powered cars >need ceramic pistion heads, valves and liners. And the liners have been >around for as many years! yeah, pity they messed up that nice vette _____ -alex _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 21 09:09:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9LG9Amf002961; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 09:09:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9LG9A5K002938; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 09:09:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 09:09:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051021114842.05589b00 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 12:08:31 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: The Cheapest Way To Fix The Energy Crisis (and lots of other crises) In-Reply-To: <4eo5rf$ajasst mxip26a.cluster1.charter.net> References: <4eo5rf$ajasst mxip26a.cluster1.charter.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64002 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: OrionWorks wrote: >Mr. Rothewell, > >I do not believe Mr. Goering is joking. Ah, well, in that case . . . If he *is* for real -- or he is faking it but his brand of black humor bothers you -- then I recommend you auto-delete his messages. Life is too short to let such people bother you. It is not as if he is saying anything useful. I hesitate to auto-delete some people because they post good messages sometimes, but irritating stuff at other times. I suppose I myself am guilty of that. Treating this subject of overpopulation seriously for a moment, my views are expressed in chapter 16 of the book: "Reducing population will reduce pollution. The two problems are linked, obviously. All else being equal, the more people there are, the more pollution they cause. But all else is never equal. The amount of pollution produced per capita can vary tremendously. In most nations, including the U.S., there is still scope to reduce it dramatically. . . ." (I see that I did not source that statement in the footnotes . . . Hmmm . . . For the record, this is the conventional view shared by most population experts and demographers. I learned it as a child, from my mother, who was a demographer.) - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 21 09:24:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9LGOHq1010725; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 09:24:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9LGOF0r010669; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 09:24:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 09:24:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051021121032.04031be0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 12:23:40 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: ICEs can't burn h2 In-Reply-To: <003d01c5d657$a9f32430$6401a8c0 NuDell> References: <4358F795.8000007 iinet.net.au> <003d01c5d657$a9f32430$6401a8c0 NuDell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <67IUpC.A.pmC.uYRWDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64003 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >Forget expensive fuel cells. Dead-end street (at least for now) -due to >precious metals! If you have hydrogen as a fuel, and decide to forego its >best use (fertilizer) then the easy answer, staring everyone in the face >these days is - just convert the traditional ICE to burn it. Jones, When you say "convert" in this context I presume you mean reengineer the engine with ceramic coated components, and then build a new production line. You are not suggesting that we could retrofit existing engines to burn hydrogen. Right? That would be an expensive undertaking, but if a practical method of storing hydrogen can be developed I think this would be a great idea. Much better than fuel cells, for now, because of the precious metal limitations. (Plus, we may need those platinum group metals for cold fusion!) However, as long as we are revamping the production line, I think it would be a very good idea to make these new engines plug-in hybrids. A plug-in hybrid hydrogen ICE would get fantastic mileage AND range. You could recharge both the batteries and the hydrogen at your house overnight, with a small electrolytic converter. It seems ideal. It would not call for much new infrastructure. We would need a few hydrogen recharge stations in large cities, for people who forget to recharge and run out of gas. We would need many more "hydrogen stations" alongside highways where cars and long-haul trucks travel long distances, and cannot wait to recharge batteries or wait for a small electrolytic converter to do its job. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 21 09:36:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9LGaQSo018746; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 09:36:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9LGaNOv018713; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 09:36:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 09:36:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Sender: jack mail3.centurytel.net Message-ID: <43591725.17B3E99C centurytel.net> Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 16:28:21 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT: Aquatic speculations on human evolution References: <48u2fu$1e23f6c mxip06a.cluster1.charter.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="xx" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="xx" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64005 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi All, Here's some stuff from the anti-Ellen site. Jack Smith -------------------------------- http://www.aquaticape.org/ by Jim Moore The Aquatic Ape Theory (often referred to as the AAT or AAH) says humans went through an aquatic or semi-aquatic stage in our evolution and that this accounts for many features seen in human anatomy and physiology. Using the principle of convergent evolution, it says that life in an aquatic environment explains these features, and that a transition from ape to hominid in a non-aquatic environment cannot ... ------------------------ http://www.aquaticape.org/hardy.html Alister Hardy's original "Aquatic ape theory" Sir Alister Hardy was a marine biologist who specialized in the study of plankton -- and don't even think of laughing; he got knighted for it. Plankton is one of the basic components of the marine food chain, and his work was very important to the British fishing industry, not to mention everybody else's. Among his more important work, he invented a device in 1925 to better record plankton levels and map out the distribution of different varieties. This was called the Continuous Plankton Recorder, which was towed behind ships, and in 1929 he designed a somewhat smaller version of the CPR which could be towed behind merchant ships, getting more and better information from a much wider area than ever before. This device, in essentially the same form, is still used in ocean research today, over 75 years later. Pretty cool ... There are some things that Hardy definitely did better than his successors; his science background didn't desert him completely. He gave a fairly specific timespan for the suggested aquatic period, as well as giving some idea of how many hours he thought these hominids would be in the water, and he recognized that they would have to be in neck-deep water much of the time for his theory to work as well as recognizing that aquatic predators exist ... ------------------- http://www.aquaticape.org/whataat.html What is the Aquatic Ape Theory (AAT)? The Aquatic Ape Theory (aka AAT or AAH) hypothesizes that humans went through an aquatic or semi-aquatic stage in our evolution, generally said to have occurred during the transition from the last common ancestor we shared with apes (LCA) to hominids (Marc Verhaegen claims it continued on through virtually the entire span of human evolution). It claims that certain features are seen in human anatomy and physiology which are only seen in humans and aquatic animals and that these constitute proof that our ape ancestors went through an aquatic phase in their transition from ape to hominid. Using the principle of convergent evolution, it says that life in an aquatic environment explains these features, and that a transition from ape to hominid in a non-aquatic environment cannot. Who thought up the Aquatic Ape Theory? The original theory was done by Sir Alister Hardy, a marine biologist who, late in his career in 1960, gave a talk at the British Sub-Aqua Club (a scuba diving club) and a month later published in New Scientist an article on that talk called "Was Man More Aquatic in the Past?" It presented most of the basic ideas, and definitely the method, of the AAT. Desmond Morris then mentioned Hardy's theory with a 2 page write-up in The Naked Ape in 1967. Elaine Morgan, at the time an Oxford grad in English and a TV scriptwriter, entered the scene in 1972 with the book Descent of Women, the idea for which she got from Desmond Morris's book. This was a pop book, pretty chatty style which seems dated now but was popular then, and it sold quite well. Looking back at it, I wouldn't call it particularly female-oriented, but Morgan presented it as "the" alternative to what she then called "The Mighty Hunter" theory ... Morgan has written another book on this subject (The Aquatic Ape Hypothesis, 1997); as a refreshing change this time, she has included references for some, but by no means all of her statements (this is perhaps to be expected since many of those statements are false) ... There have been a few other people who've done articles on the AAT, and they belie Morgan's claim that you can't publish academic articles on the subject. (Good academic articles seem to be another matter entirely.) Chief among them is Marc Verhaegen, who has done a number of articles. Although Verhaegen's articles do have references, they also contain statements such as claiming that rhinoceros are "predominantly aquatic", and several other howlers among their many errors ... Sexual selection and the AAT Sexual selection is interesting vis a vis the AAT because many of the traits that AAT proponents say are aquatic traits due to convergent evolution in response to the environment (and therefore selected via natural selection) are actually, and rather obviously, due to sexual selection. This is obvious because, typical of sexually selected features, they appear at puberty instead of at the age the animal would start using the aquatic environment. We see this, for instance, in the lifespan history of fat in seals versus humans. Seals rapidly gain fat while very young, and at a very early age they are essentially like their parents in their fat distribution and quantity. We, on the other hand, start off fairly fat as babies, drop within a few years to the leanest condition of our lives as children, and then rapidly build up fat at puberty, with radical differences in quantity and distribution of fat between boys and girls, and to top it off, at middle age our fat distribution changes once again. Also, in humans fat distribution and amount is far different in males and females, while in seals the sexes are very similar. The same huge differences between aquatic mammals and humans that we see in fat we also see with our hair and sebaceous glands. AAT proponents say they are aquatic traits, which means they must be due to convergent evolution selected via natural selection, but they are actually obviously sexually selected traits ... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 21 09:55:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9LGt9nA031274; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 09:55:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9LGsxhu031129; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 09:54:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 09:54:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <48vift$1dfkd9r mxip07a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.97,240,1125892800"; d="scan'208"; a="1526347067:sNHT18576652" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: OrionWorks Organization: OrionWorks To: CC: Subject: Re: The Cheapest Way To Fix The Energy Crisis (and lots of other crises) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 11:54:34 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64006 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >From Jed Rothwell ... > Treating this subject of overpopulation seriously for a > moment, my views are expressed in chapter 16 of the book: > "Reducing population will reduce pollution. The two > problems are linked, obviously. All else being equal, > the more people there are, the more pollution they cause. > But all else is never equal. The amount of pollution > produced per capita can vary tremendously. In most > nations, including the U.S., there is still scope to > reduce it dramatically. . . ." and, obviously, an AE solution like CF, ZPE, or similar breakthrough will go a long way in reducing over-all global pollution because there would be sufficient "free" energy available to perform the necessary cleanups, cleanups which tend to be energy intensive. There is another interesting component to population reduction which we are currently witnessing in a number of industrialized nations, particularly Japan. Young educated independent self-sufficient women are not too keen on the notion of getting married and bearing many sons for their husband. Fancy that! Japan, I understand, is in real danger of a population implosion due to the alarmingly low birth rate which is currently well below the replacement level. They will either have to force their women of childbearing age to get pregnant more often than they currently do (highly, HIGHLY unlikely for a lot of obvious ethical reasons!), or devise more attractive socio-economic measures making it a more desirable life-goal for these women to have children (Better health benefits regardless of marital status, guaranteed pre-paid education for their children, including through college or tech-school, etc...) - or else get over a somewhat xenophobic-like tendency of excluding outsid! ers from partaking of their culture. Japan may soon be forced to let more foreigners in to both settle and help supplement their dwindling workforce. I'm sure there's plenty of willing labor that can be had possibly from such places like the Philippians, Korea, (North Korea comes to mind), and China as well (more Chinese males than females are born there due to a tendency of families to abort unwanted females). But only if many of these countries could just get over a long history of hatred for each other. Perhaps the economics of the situation will make the memories of long-standing atrocities & hatred it justifiably generated unprofitable to maintain. I can only hope. It is somewhat amusing to consider that fact that industrialization, itself, seems to be a very effective contraceptive in its own right! > (I see that I did not source that statement in the footnotes > . . . Hmmm . . > . For the record, this is the conventional view shared by > most population experts and demographers. I learned it as a > child, from my mother, who was a demographer.) > > - Jed Wish I had met her. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 21 10:01:21 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9LH0FGd002750; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 10:00:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9LGWRMx015883; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 09:32:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 09:32:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=daYw+gumfu+Xv86fbXYUibZvV2JSGkExt9OWsCofI2L0ksMcZ/YMb6rLJ64zG8tLx20qZhKe78pDEW7y5fzRpzCRcR//AfQzA0/2agTY/vEMy8oylxfNN4YQpccM/YtEIiAKiDVB0h9iyxMXXv49TC5gv4Brvx6WCmWkuHdM8qU= ; Message-ID: <20051021163148.45399.qmail web32811.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 09:31:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Harvey Norris Subject: Re: Another use of Fibonaci numbers To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <8UHoyD.A.63D.VgRWDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64004 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- thomas malloy wrote: > I attended a sales lecture for a foreign currency > exchange (Forex) > predicting system last night. An economist came up > with a algorithm > based on the Fibonaci numbers. It is said to be > quite accurate. > My two brothers and some freinds have got involved with this 4x foreign currency program. Brother says to go gft.com and get dealbookfx2,(a better deal) in the settings you can set two or more triangular moving averages that mimic 4x's program. 4x wants some 2500 dollars? to purchase their software, but they let you use it for free on a trial basis for 30 some days. Apparently what this (4x) trial basis program does is give you practice in currency trading by using an imaginary sum of starting money and to see how you would do if this were reflected as actual monetary trades. What really surprised me was the fact that every time you make a trade, ( I think the program supposedly tells you when a currencies value is going to go up), the currency chart reflects this and seems to do the opposite effect, the value you are betting on to go up actually goes down instead. Since the value of the currency seems be reflected on who is betting on it to go up, this sounds very similar to what happens in racetrack betting. A horse may have a very high odds against winning a race, but once a significant amount of people bet on that horse, the odds change to a lower payoff. Sort of an insurance policy for the racetrack owners to never loose money by manipulating the odds payoff to reduce their potential payoffs. Now the first question that comes up with currency trading is this. Since the player in the program is only typically playing with thousands of dollars, and there is actually millions (or more)of dollars being traded; why does such a small bet act like it is actually influencing the value of the currency being traded? This didnt make any sense to me until I realized the following. What if there are thousands of other folks out there who are betting exactly like you are betting. What if the major players in currency exchange are doing the same thing you are doing? Then the thing starts to make sense and one can even go into conspiracy theories about this thought. What if the worlds major currency values are being manipulated by a world bank or some such thing like the IMF to their own advantage? Since the value of a countries currency is supposed to be based on that countries productivity or gross national product or some such word,(I am by no means an economist): could it possibly be true that outside manipulative forces be at work here? It seems to make sense that if a world bank gives a loan to a country; and then that countries currency is devalued: on the loan payback more currency is needed to satisfy the loan payback and its attendant interest; with the net effect that the banks profits are being maximized. Has anyone noted whether this is a popular conspiracy theory? Do some people think that the worlds major money lenders are involved in manipulating things to their own advantage? Sincerely Inquisitive; Harvey D Norris Tesla Research Group; Pioneering the Applications of Interphasal Resonances http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 21 10:05:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9LH4rvR008314; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 10:05:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9LH4ogk008256; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 10:04:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 10:04:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <007101c5d661$7ea76ac0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051019151644.0454aaf0 pop.mindspring.com> <010801c5d4ef$0e7b21b0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <017401c5d514$36ed22e0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <4358FFCA.3040803@iinet.net.au> Subject: Re: Imagining the FFF(TM) future-fuel-farm Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 10:04:26 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <6oQYwC.A.0AC.x-RWDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64007 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Wesley Bruce > Are you aware of the bio-methane projects of the 1970's? See > page 15 of this PDF > http://www.pacaqua.org/Documents/Marine_Macroalgae_Culture.pdf Thanks! I had forgotten about this. The whole document is interesting for both vegitarians and anti-oil ecologists. Nori lovers will not want their food supply threatened however ... and tank farming is too expensive for fuel anyway. Open-ocean tethered farming, as on page 15 might be an option... but... one of the better of these ocean biomass ideas once seemed to be based on open ocean "farming" of the Sargasso Sea. There you would not need permanent structures or tethers - just a catamaran style factory boat with open-weave catchment filters between the two hulls. http://www.smithsonianmag.si.edu/smithsonian/issues98/nov98/sargasso.html http://plankt.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/20/12/2233 There seems to be a forum dedicated to ocean-biomass ideas for "gasification" but I can't get access to all of it: http://listserv.repp.org/pipermail/gasification/ and they have mentioned some of the numbers http://listserv.repp.org/pipermail/gasification/2003-November/000427.html Such as "One Million Square Miles" of biomass... !! Wonder why they focus on gasification instead of ethanol? I was about to temporarily give up on the Amazon bio-ethanol idea, but hey... ...wow, just look at those number for the Sargasso sea! Even at fairly low density of BTU per area, there could easily be 100 quads of annual biomass in there! However, this will certainly inflame and infuriate the seaweed-huggers (who most likely have been carefully chosen and funded by Exxon to pounce on any mention of an alternative to Arab oil).... Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 21 10:07:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9LH6A1o009522; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 10:06:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9LH66dD009434; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 10:06:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 10:06:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051021122932.04017640 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 13:04:58 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Some advanced nuclear reactors resemble breeders Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64008 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Earlier, I wrote: "There is plenty of uranium, so even though we only 'burn' a small fraction of it with today's reactors." It should be noted that some of the advanced reactors now on the drawing board will burn a considerably larger fraction of the uranium, even though they are not breeder reactors in the usual sense. In other words, even if we do not develop breeder reactors in the next 100 years, we can still improve efficiency, extract more energy from the uranium, and produce a smaller volume of spent fuel. All to the good. Some of these reactors also achieve 40% thermal to electricity conversion, as I mentioned yesterday. Here is a recent summary of these developments, from the Uranium Information Centre: http://www.uic.com.au/nip16.htm This describes advanced reactors that have actually been built recently and are in operation, and it describes even more advanced designs now on the drawing board. QUOTE: "Third-generation reactors have: * a standardised design for each type to expedite licensing, reduce capital cost and reduce construction time, * a simpler and more rugged design, making them easier to operate and less vulnerable to operational upsets, * higher availability and longer operating life - typically 60 years, * reduced possibility of core melt accidents, * minimal effect on the environment, * higher burn-up to reduce fuel use and the amount of waste, * burnable absorbers ("poisons") to extend fuel life." Notice they say "reduced possibility of core melt accidents." That is a prudent choice of words. I expect it was vetted by the legal staff to avoid liability. They do not want to claim a meltdown is impossible, just unlikely. Unfortunately for them, if a meltdown does occur, people will not remember this nuanced, guarded statement. When the Titanic sank everyone claimed the ship builders had called it "unsinkable." They never did. The shipbuilders and technical journals called it "practically unthinkable," and they were right. It took an enormous stroke of bad luck to flood so many compartments and sink the ship. But the distinction was lost on the public. If two or three fission reactor cores meltdown catastrophically in the next 20 years, the nuclear fission industry will also meltdown and disappear. People who advocate fission energy, such as our friend Standing Bear, should insist that safety be the Number One Priority, and they should never make flippant statements or dismissive statements such as: >. . . we might as well build all the nuclear that we need and not worry >that our materials or fuel will be stolen or misappropriated . . . That is the worst possible way to garner support from the public. It is PR anti-matter. Along the same lines, people like me who advocate cold fusion research should strenuously avoid giving the impression that it is a sure thing -- just give us the money and we will make the breakthrough! -- or that we can be sure already it will be perfectly safe. The public will only support cold fusion when it is assured we are serious, we acknowledge that it may not work despite our best efforts, and if it does work we intend to make *very certain* it is safe, using extensive testing with radiation detectors, long-term exposure to laboratory rats and other species, extensive follow-up and recycling, and so on, and so forth. Many cold fusion researchers have been flippant about this subject, and many have unnecessarily expose themselves to possible danger. This is bad PR, and personally stupid. The public demands inordinately high levels of assurance and responsibility from breakthrough technology. New technology is held to a higher standard than existing technology. That is unfair, but it is a fact of life. For example, some people are afraid of hybrid engines because they fear that in an accident the battery pack may electrocute someone. (This is untrue.) People are afraid of new things. They prefer the devil they know. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 21 10:29:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9LHSalG028482; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 10:28:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9LHRwVJ028139; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 10:27:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 10:27:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <007e01c5d664$af523080$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <4358F795.8000007@iinet.net.au> <003d01c5d657$a9f32430$6401a8c0@NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051021121032.04031be0@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: ICEs can't burn h2 Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 10:27:16 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64009 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed, > A plug-in hybrid hydrogen ICE would get fantastic mileage AND > range. You could recharge both the batteries and the hydrogen at > your house overnight, with a small electrolytic converter. It > seems ideal. Yes! This is definitely the best way to go: the H2 plug-in Hybrid. Even without a storage breakthrough, in such a redesigned hybrid - a small (motorcycle sized) H2 burning ICE would be useful to extend the commuter-range of mileage of the vehicle's batteries - and could then we can use the old-style compressed H2 storage - which is too bulky for use in a non-hybrid situation, with a larger engine. Let's see... for the plug-in hybrid. Even without a major breakthrough in batteries or H2 storage, one could have a vehicle with total electric motor drivetrain, enough batteries for a 25+ mile commute (say 6- large marine grade lead-acid batteries - 240 pounds). A small 1 liter gen-set for longer highway use or to recharge the batteries in an emergency. The H2 could be carried in a single pressurized cylinder in the safest place in an automobile (under the rear seat) giving a 200 mile range - when needed. In a normal commute, it would be all electric with a nightly recharge. This would be slightly heavier and bulkier than the current Prius - but has the large advantage of much longer all-electric range - yet the ecological advantage of no local pollution if the H2 must be used. Perfect for the "other" California (LA) and other areas which are smoggy. Since the H2 is not normally used, one would not need to make it at home and could purchase it in converted filling-stations. I like it. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 21 11:26:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9LIPLMS013593; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 11:25:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9LIPIDJ013563; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 11:25:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 11:25:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <009b01c5d66c$bc2dfe30$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: Popiel's Plug-in Hybrid Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 11:24:54 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64010 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Let's base this re-design on the Prius. The Prius takes the approach of using a water-cooled gasoline 4-cyl. engine connected to an electric motor through a transmission, to propel the vehicle. With an electric motor alone - one can dispense with the transmission - which electric motors do not need - this is weight savings of about 150-175 pounds. The Prius does not have enough battery capacity - so you add batteries. 175 pounds of lead-acid batteries, say, to the one already there and we are still at the same weight as before but with a longer all-electric range. Duh! why didn't Toyota do this already? But wait! There is more ! From the vo-version of Ron Popiel: If you do this - then obviously you do not need the larger engine, as it wouldn't work without a transmission anyway - only a smaller genset. Gensets are (or should be) one-speed high rev items - and therefore can be based on much smaller high-RPM, lower torque, engine. In this scenario, the auto gets its high torque needs from the electric drive motor, and not from the fueled-motor. Big difference. Duh! why didn't Toyota do this already? But wait! There is more ! From the vo-version of Ron Popiel: The difference between a 1 liter and a 1.5 liter engine is only 50 pounds or so but the best engine for this intended use (genset) is NOT the 4-cylinder water-cooled engine. The best engine for a lightweight high speed genset, which can be air-cooled and be multi-fueled (i.e. use both H2 or ethanol or gasoline) is based on a single cylinder Wankel rotary. The H2 Wankel, as Mazda has now shown (HRX-2), is most unique in that it can use H2 or gasoline as a fuel - with almost no alteration PLUS it is about 35% lighter than a comparable sized ICE, and the biggest advantage is ... ...that if/when you go to single cylinder, you can go air-cooled. Mazda, themselves know this, but they have not gone this far yet, and are sticking with the large double water-cooled version of the RX and using a transmission. They have not seen the light. Duh! why didn't Mazda do this already? But wait! There is more ! From the vo-version of Ron Popiel: A single rotary is not practical unless it is used as a constant speed genset - PERFECT! By that, it is meant when you need variable speed, and through a transmission, then only the double rotary works well. BUT the double cannot be air cooled easily and also avoid preignition. In the guise of a single-hi-speed genset (50 kilowatt), however, you have all of these advantages in single Wankel: low weight, small size, air-cooled capability, multi-fuel capability, easy to optimize for hydrogen, no H2 preignition, so valves to embrittle. Weight saving for the Prius redesign: 150 pounds. Weight of fully loaded filament wound pressurized H2 cylinder = 150 pounds. Net weight of the new-Prius is the same as the old Prius, but now we have much longer Plug-in range, can use H2 when available of gasoline or ethanol till then, and is MUCH more ecologically sound without any sacrifices (other than my small consulting fee). Wow. I feel like Cassandra once again - this is so obviously superior for use in a redesigned Plug-in hybrid - that is: with a Wankle genset for a Plug-in Hybrid, that it blows my mind that they have not considered it before now. Best regards to Mazda and Toyota ... please "pimp" my ideas...(and don't forget my small consulting fee). Ron C. Popiel Hey Jed.... Please translate this into Kanji, and forward to Toyota. I will split the small consulting fee ;-) and maybe we will get one of the early models free for beta-testing! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 21 12:27:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9LJQZq9031902; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 12:26:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9LJQRGn031797; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 12:26:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 12:26:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] X-Originating-Email: [caliostro1795 hotmail.com] X-Sender: caliostro1795 hotmail.com In-Reply-To: <009b01c5d66c$bc2dfe30$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Alex Caliostro" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Popiel's Plug-in Hybrid Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 13:26:00 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 21 Oct 2005 19:26:01.0114 (UTC) FILETIME=[453E0FA0:01C5D675] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64011 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >From: "Jones Beene" >Wow. I feel like Cassandra once again - this is so obviously superior for >use in a redesigned Plug-in hybrid - that is: with a Wankle genset for a >Plug-in Hybrid, that it blows my mind that they have not considered it >before now. ok dr. zellerbach, you've solved the problem, time for your aspergers meds now >Ron C. Popiel maybe you should stick with pocket fishing ;-) _________________________________________________________________ On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 21 12:43:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9LJgv9E015759; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 12:43:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9LJgK4E015247; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 12:42:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 12:42:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <4enh25$1ijmggd mxip13a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.97,240,1125892800"; d="scan'208"; a="1698382349:sNHT244981270" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: OrionWorks Organization: OrionWorks To: CC: Subject: OT: Fibonacci Numbers - a personal rant (you have been warned!) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 14:41:42 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64012 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From thomas malloy > > I attended a sales lecture for a foreign currency > > exchange (Forex) predicting system last night. > > An economist came up with a algorithm based on > > the Fibonaci numbers. It is said to be quite accurate. Thomas, Mr. Norris has already expressed some interesting speculations on the fascinating machinations of the foreign exchange market. I'm compelled to express a few personal trading experiences of my own as the result so my adventures in playing the commodities, particularly in meat, oils, and grain markets. I dabbled in these highly volatile, risky markets back in the late 90s for about two years straight. Back then, like many of my personal projects I became highly focused on learning as much as I could from available text books on the art & science of trading. I studied up on trend lines, diamonds, shoulders, 1-2-3 observations, break outs, the Elliott-wave, fractal patterns, and numerous other techniques all designed to make money for the participant. I even studied a complex system based on planetary motions and how these celestial cycles affect the ebb-and flow of commodity prices. To be honest, as absurd as it might sound, I suspect there may actually be an element of truth hidden deeply somewhere within that fascinating planetary motion data. Correct me if I'm wrong but I got the impression, perhaps from a previous post of yours, that your profession to some extent involves the complex art of trading. What kind of trading you might actually perform I really don't know, nor is it important for me to know the specifics. It is obvious to me that trading is an important component in maintaining healthy capitalism in the free world. Many markets would literally cease to function if we weren't allowed to trade contracts (futures) on an open market. Eventually, I lost several thousand dollars in my commodity trading endeavors. Despite my losses I have generally considered the experience to have been a VALUABLE education of sorts, one that I don't necessarily feel was ill-spent. I learned a tremendous amount of things while paying for the tuition of experience. I don't know what your interest is in the latest "Fibonaci number" algorithm, particularly if you're considering the possibility of making money off of it. To be honest, the following comments are, more truthfully, directed towards anyone who might be considering getting into the volatile world of trading. I feel compelled to comment on the fact that most "systems" claim they will make money & profits for the individual who purchases their "system" - assuming, that is, that they carefully follow the rules of the "system". I believe some individuals actually do make money some of the time following some of these "systems". Most don't. There are others out there who are obviously smarter and/or luckier than I. Perhaps you're one of them. A study was recently made in regards to who was making money in trading commodities and who wasn't. It was determined that most -professionals- who consistently made profits did so at the expense of the inexperienced and/or wannabe traders like me. (Perhaps there really is no difference between the two definitions.) This brings up an interesting problem for the "pro": Fresh blood is constantly needed to refresh the profits of the professionals. More than five years have gone by since my last active "trade", and I still get junk mail telling me of the latest trading technique that I would be a fool not to purchase - or, better yet, wouldn't I pretty please open up a brand new trading account with so and so. Fresh blood. Despite my financial losses one of the biggest lessons I learned was the fact that no one actually ever "makes money" and/or creates wealth by practicing the fine art of trading. Any trader who ends up with more money in his bank account at the end of another highly satisfying trading session means other traders (collectively and/or individually) have lost the exact same amount of money in their own bank accounts. Wealth is simply being redistributed - NEVER CREATED. This is, in fact, one of the biggest complaints I have against the Bush Administration's attempt to privatize Social Security. The administration has based its SSNO improvement premise on the fact that individuals could personally enrich their lives by making better decisions as to where to invest their retirement money in. I'm sure some individuals would make better decisions. But those American citizens who DO make better decisions will do so at the expense of other American citizens and at exactly the same amount of money LOST. It is not my belief and/or personal philosophy that an administration should preside over the overhaul of a financial institution that would eventually pit american citizen against american citizen in their personal attempts to get a better piece of the a finite pie. IMHO, an administration should instead spend their efforts on assisting those institutions and companies in finding cheaper ways to generate the energy our nation and world desperately needs to survive. As Jed has often said, and to paraphrase his comments, if CF or some other form of ZPE finally becomes a commercial reality EVERYONE would suddenly become wealthier within a very short period of time, and NOT at the expense of others. True wealth would be CREATED, not redistributed. The generation of true wealth is, IMHO, what an administration should focus it's efforts on instead of the redistribution of wealth. As for me and my somewhat dubious commodity trading experiences. Well, I still find it a fascinating system. Honest! I would in fact, love to do more trading. Who knows, perhaps I might eventually get to a point where I could start taking money away from others less fortunate than I. But for now, I can rationalize it away by saying I'd rather not take money away from those less fortunate. And besides, I can't afford the tuition. ;-) This ends my thinly disguised political rant for the day. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 21 13:04:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9LK3Oqh002479; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 13:03:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9LK3I8m002425; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 13:03:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 13:03:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=ix.netcom.com; b=Xp63OwwkNGJnnTW3iH+nvcYVvBvX9MhLnd0LZDpez98KPK9hSR7BrXiccY2DMZ9/; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220051052120412360 ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.1.47.0 (Windows) From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: "vortex-l" Subject: FW: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday October 21, 2005 Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 13:04:12 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d8fe2bd47b81e8dda1bb33a0917b71f5be350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 216.175.101.81 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64013 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > [Original Message] From: What's New To: Date: 10/21/2005 12:45:23 PM Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday October 21, 2005 WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 21 Oct 05 Washington, DC 1. SUPREME QUESTION: WHAT ARE THE NOMINEE'S VIEWS ON SCIENCE? Our request for questions that should be asked of Supreme Court nominees to elicit their views on science drew a huge response. Traditionally, nominees are not questioned about their religious views on the assumption that an oath to uphold the constitution makes the nominee's religious views irrelevant. Science, which bases judgements solely on the evidence, is the antithesis of religion and is clearly relevant. The WN staff felt the question that best captured the consensus of our readers' views in the fewest number of words was from Abi Soffer at SLAC: "How does being descended from a monkey affect your judicial philosophy?" WN will include more suggested questions each week until the confirmation process in the Senate is over. 2. INTELLIGENT ASTROLOGY: TRIAL FOCUSES ON DEFINITION OF SCIENCE. In early August, expecting it might come up in the Dover School Board case, WN copped a definition of science from the Concise Oxford English Dictionary, Eleventh Edition. It mentions the natural world http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN05/wn080505.html, but not the supernatural. On Tuesday, Michael Behe, the defense's irreducible-complexity guru, testified in favor of a broader definition. According to a NY Times story, Behe acknowledged that "scientific theory" by his definition would fit astrology as well as intelligent design. 3. SPACE RACE: SO WENT THE LAST ISLAND OF SANITY IN A CRAZY WORLD Who would have believed that the United States, having landed men on the Moon 36 years ago in a race with the Soviet Union, and having spent more than $600B on its space program, would today be locked in another race to send humans to the Moon? A race with China? And China may be ahead? Go on! Now suppose I told you that the United Kingdom, long admired by scientists for staying clear of the ISS, is urged by a commission of the Royal Astronomical Society to enter the race? "Say it ain't so, Joe." 4. BUT I HAVE SOME GOOD NEWS: THE MOON MAY BE A SOURCE OF OXYGEN. In a 1989 interview on CNN, Vice President Dan Quayle explained why the U.S. should undertake a manned mission to Mars: "We have seen pictures where there are canals, we believe, and water. If there is water, there is oxygen. If oxygen, that means we can breathe," http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN89/wn090189.html. That didn't pan out, but I have some good news: we don't have to go all the way to Mars for oxygen. UV images obtained by the Hubble Space Telescope show ilmenite deposits on the Moon. Need to breathe on the Moon? Just smelt up a little ilmenite. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.bobpark.org What's New is moving to a different listserver and our subscription process has changed. To change your subscription status please visit this link: http://listserv.umd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=bobparks-whatsnew&A=1 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 21 14:07:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9LL6ZDp022357; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 14:06:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9LL6XE2022338; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 14:06:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 14:06:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=LidfMYhOE0AiwJmZ4ae2DkhLksshl6F+6Ae6XDS6M2o5dAsQhjJMp0xWAaaxeaZwge65FvJHms3xt/GnRnuweCcCv8qkEAMgeFGOC+57nPN0d5o049m/NXMzhNuFMJLzCwuDDHt1vpo0sUG5E7MY8znjlu4VtP9AmqIN0/IMn50= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 14:06:12 -0700 From: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT: Fibonacci Numbers - a personal rant (you have been warned!) In-Reply-To: <4enh25$1ijmggd mxip13a.cluster1.charter.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_5149_26514538.1129928772057" References: <4enh25$1ijmggd mxip13a.cluster1.charter.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64014 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_5149_26514538.1129928772057 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline ill also point out that a software was designed about 5 years ago that took price flucuations of individual stocks as a whole and used equations that described the motion of quantum particles and the likelyhood of destruction of those particles. i believe that was the equations used, that or somethin= g with water droplets. they then used it to predict teh next days prices. for a year. with 90 percent accuracy. they then used it to buy stocks. and it stopped working, because the very nature of a system that works DESTROYS what makes it work. On 10/21/05, OrionWorks wrote: > > > From thomas malloy > > > > I attended a sales lecture for a foreign currency > > > exchange (Forex) predicting system last night. > > > An economist came up with a algorithm based on > > > the Fibonaci numbers. It is said to be quite accurate. > > Thomas, > > Mr. Norris has already expressed some interesting speculations on the > fascinating machinations of the foreign exchange market. > > I'm compelled to express a few personal trading experiences of my own as > the result so my adventures in playing the commodities, particularly in > meat, oils, and grain markets. I dabbled in these highly volatile, risky > markets back in the late 90s for about two years straight. > > Back then, like many of my personal projects I became highly focused on > learning as much as I could from available text books on the art & scienc= e > of trading. I studied up on trend lines, diamonds, shoulders, 1-2-3 > observations, break outs, the Elliott-wave, fractal patterns, and numerou= s > other techniques all designed to make money for the participant. I even > studied a complex system based on planetary motions and how these celesti= al > cycles affect the ebb-and flow of commodity prices. To be honest, as absu= rd > as it might sound, I suspect there may actually be an element of truth > hidden deeply somewhere within that fascinating planetary motion data. > > Correct me if I'm wrong but I got the impression, perhaps from a previous > post of yours, that your profession to some extent involves the complex a= rt > of trading. What kind of trading you might actually perform I really don'= t > know, nor is it important for me to know the specifics. It is obvious to = me > that trading is an important component in maintaining healthy capitalism = in > the free world. Many markets would literally cease to function if we were= n't > allowed to trade contracts (futures) on an open market. > > Eventually, I lost several thousand dollars in my commodity trading > endeavors. Despite my losses I have generally considered the experience t= o > have been a VALUABLE education of sorts, one that I don't necessarily fee= l > was ill-spent. I learned a tremendous amount of things while paying for t= he > tuition of experience. > > I don't know what your interest is in the latest "Fibonaci number" > algorithm, particularly if you're considering the possibility of making > money off of it. To be honest, the following comments are, more truthfull= y, > directed towards anyone who might be considering getting into the volatil= e > world of trading. > > I feel compelled to comment on the fact that most "systems" claim they > will make money & profits for the individual who purchases their "system"= - > assuming, that is, that they carefully follow the rules of the "system". > > I believe some individuals actually do make money some of the time > following some of these "systems". Most don't. There are others out there > who are obviously smarter and/or luckier than I. Perhaps you're one of th= em. > > A study was recently made in regards to who was making money in trading > commodities and who wasn't. It was determined that most -professionals- w= ho > consistently made profits did so at the expense of the inexperienced and/= or > wannabe traders like me. (Perhaps there really is no difference between t= he > two definitions.) This brings up an interesting problem for the "pro": Fr= esh > blood is constantly needed to refresh the profits of the professionals. M= ore > than five years have gone by since my last active "trade", and I still ge= t > junk mail telling me of the latest trading technique that I would be a fo= ol > not to purchase - or, better yet, wouldn't I pretty please open up a bran= d > new trading account with so and so. Fresh blood. > > Despite my financial losses one of the biggest lessons I learned was the > fact that no one actually ever "makes money" and/or creates wealth by > practicing the fine art of trading. Any trader who ends up with more mone= y > in his bank account at the end of another highly satisfying trading sessi= on > means other traders (collectively and/or individually) have lost the exac= t > same amount of money in their own bank accounts. Wealth is simply being > redistributed - NEVER CREATED. > > This is, in fact, one of the biggest complaints I have against the Bush > Administration's attempt to privatize Social Security. The administration > has based its SSNO improvement premise on the fact that individuals could > personally enrich their lives by making better decisions as to where to > invest their retirement money in. I'm sure some individuals would make > better decisions. But those American citizens who DO make better decision= s > will do so at the expense of other American citizens and at exactly the s= ame > amount of money LOST. It is not my belief and/or personal philosophy that= an > administration should preside over the overhaul of a financial institutio= n > that would eventually pit american citizen against american citizen in th= eir > personal attempts to get a better piece of the a finite pie. > > IMHO, an administration should instead spend their efforts on assisting > those institutions and companies in finding cheaper ways to generate the > energy our nation and world desperately needs to survive. As Jed has ofte= n > said, and to paraphrase his comments, if CF or some other form of ZPE > finally becomes a commercial reality EVERYONE would suddenly become > wealthier within a very short period of time, and NOT at the expense of > others. True wealth would be CREATED, not redistributed. The generation o= f > true wealth is, IMHO, what an administration should focus it's efforts on > instead of the redistribution of wealth. > > As for me and my somewhat dubious commodity trading experiences. Well, I > still find it a fascinating system. Honest! I would in fact, love to do m= ore > trading. Who knows, perhaps I might eventually get to a point where I cou= ld > start taking money away from others less fortunate than I. But for now, I > can rationalize it away by saying I'd rather not take money away from tho= se > less fortunate. > > And besides, I can't afford the tuition. ;-) > > This ends my thinly disguised political rant for the day. > > Regards, > Steven Vincent Johnson > www.OrionWorks.com > > -- "Monsieur l'abb=E9, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to ma= ke it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire ------=_Part_5149_26514538.1129928772057 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline ill also point out that a software was designed about 5 years ago that took= price flucuations of individual stocks as a whole and used equations that = described the motion of quantum particles and the likelyhood of destruction= of those particles.  i believe that was the equations used, that or s= omething with water droplets.  they then used it to predict teh next d= ays prices.  for a year.  with 90 percent accuracy.  they th= en used it to buy stocks.  and it stopped working, because the ve= ry nature of a system that works DESTROYS what makes it work.

On 10/21/05, OrionWorks <orionworks@ch= arter.net> wrote:
> From thomas malloy

&= gt; > I attended a sales lecture for a foreign currency
> > exc= hange (Forex) predicting system last night.
> > An economist came up with a algorithm  based on
= > > the Fibonaci numbers. It is said to be quite accurate.

Tho= mas,

Mr. Norris has already expressed some interesting speculations = on the fascinating machinations of the foreign exchange market.

I'm compelled to express a few personal trading experiences of my o= wn as the result so my adventures in playing the commodities, particularly = in meat, oils, and grain markets. I dabbled in these highly volatile, risky= markets back in the late 90s for about two years straight.

Back then, like many of my personal projects I became highly focuse= d on learning as much as I could from available text books on the art &= science of trading. I studied up on trend lines, diamonds, shoulders, 1-2-= 3 observations, break outs, the Elliott-wave, fractal patterns, and numerou= s other techniques all designed to make money for the participant. I even s= tudied a complex system based on planetary motions and how these celestial = cycles affect the ebb-and flow of commodity prices. To be honest, as absurd= as it might sound, I suspect there may actually be an element of truth hid= den deeply somewhere within that fascinating planetary motion data.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I got the impression, perhaps from a pr= evious post of yours, that your profession to some extent involves the comp= lex art of trading. What kind of trading you might actually perform I reall= y don't know, nor is it important for me to know the specifics. It is obvio= us to me that trading is an important component in maintaining healthy capi= talism in the free world. Many markets would literally cease to function if= we weren't allowed to trade contracts (futures) on an open market.

Eventually, I lost several thousand dollars in my commodity trading= endeavors. Despite my losses I have generally considered the experience to= have been a VALUABLE education of sorts, one that I don't necessarily feel= was ill-spent. I learned a tremendous amount of things while paying for th= e tuition of experience.

I don't know what your interest is in the latest "Fibonaci num= ber" algorithm, particularly if you're considering the possibility of = making money off of it. To be honest, the following comments are, more trut= hfully, directed towards anyone who might be considering getting into the v= olatile world of trading.

I feel compelled to comment on the fact that most "systems&quo= t; claim they will make money & profits for the individual who purchase= s their "system" - assuming, that is, that they carefully follow = the rules of the "system".

I believe some individuals actually do make money some of the time = following some of these "systems". Most don't. There are others o= ut there who are obviously smarter and/or luckier than I. Perhaps you're on= e of them.

A study was recently made in regards to who was making money in tra= ding commodities and who wasn't. It was determined that most -professionals= - who consistently made profits did so at the expense of the inexperienced = and/or wannabe traders like me. (Perhaps there really is no difference betw= een the two definitions.) This brings up an interesting problem for the &qu= ot;pro": Fresh blood is constantly needed to refresh the profits of th= e professionals. More than five years have gone by since my last active &qu= ot;trade", and I still get junk mail telling me of the latest trading = technique that I would be a fool not to purchase - or, better yet, wouldn't= I pretty please open up a brand new trading account with so and so. Fresh = blood.

Despite my financial losses one of the biggest lessons I learned wa= s the fact that no one actually ever "makes money" and/or creates= wealth by practicing the fine art of trading. Any trader who ends up with = more money in his bank account at the end of another highly satisfying trad= ing session means other traders (collectively and/or individually) have los= t the exact same amount of money in their own bank accounts. Wealth is simp= ly being redistributed - NEVER CREATED.

This is, in fact, one of the biggest complaints I have against the = Bush Administration's attempt to privatize Social Security. The administrat= ion has based its SSNO improvement premise on the fact that individuals cou= ld personally enrich their lives by making better decisions as to where to = invest their retirement money in. I'm sure some individuals would make bett= er decisions. But those American citizens who DO make better decisions will= do so at the expense of other American citizens and at exactly the same am= ount of money LOST. It is not my belief and/or personal philosophy that an = administration should preside over the overhaul of a financial institution = that would eventually pit american citizen against american citizen in thei= r personal attempts to get a better piece of the a finite pie.

IMHO, an administration should instead spend their efforts on assis= ting those institutions and companies in finding cheaper ways to generate t= he energy our nation and world desperately needs to survive. As Jed has oft= en said, and to paraphrase his comments, if CF or some other form of ZPE fi= nally becomes a commercial reality EVERYONE would suddenly become wealthier= within a very short period of time, and NOT at the expense of others. True= wealth would be CREATED, not redistributed. The generation of true wealth = is, IMHO, what an administration should focus it's efforts on instead of th= e redistribution of wealth.

As for me and my somewhat dubious commodity trading experiences. We= ll, I still find it a fascinating system. Honest!  I would in fac= t, love to do more trading. Who knows, perhaps I might eventually get to a = point where I could start taking money away from others less fortunate than= I. But for now, I can rationalize it away by saying I'd rather not take mo= ney away from those less fortunate.

And besides, I can't afford the tuition. ;-)

This ends my th= inly disguised political rant for the day.

Regards,
Steven Vincen= t Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com




--
"Monsieur = l'abb=E9, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it poss= ible for you to continue to write"  Voltaire=20 ------=_Part_5149_26514538.1129928772057-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 21 14:26:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9LLQ6RV001796; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 14:26:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9LLQ32q001734; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 14:26:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 14:26:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <012d01c5d685$fa780050$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: Cc: "Mark Goldes" References: <009b01c5d66c$bc2dfe30$6401a8c0 NuDell> Subject: Re: Popiel's Plug-in Hybrid Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 14:25:36 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_012A_01C5D64B.4DA1FC80" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <8pGItD.A.wa.ozVWDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64015 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_012A_01C5D64B.4DA1FC80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mark Goldes sent me this site for Wankel's: http://www.freedom-motors.com/ 75 hp and only 80 pounds - that is the perfect size for a Prius-style = hybrid. This one is multi-fuel too but apparently they haven't tried H2. ... not ot disappoint "Ron" .... But ... OK, there is nothing new under the sun (almost) ....and it's = "tortoises all the way down," but in this report, S.A.E. did not go far = enough 10 years ago: "Evaluation of the hydrogen fueled rotary engine for hybrid vehicle = applications" They had a different definition of "hybrid" back then=20 Salanki, P.A. (Univ. of Toronto, Ontario (Canada)); Wallace, J.S.=20 pp. 35-46 of Strategies in Electric and Hybrid Vehicle Design Society of = Automotive Engineers, Inc., Warrendale, PA (United States) (1996). 143p. = (CONF-960204--: International Congress and Exposition of the Society of = Automotive Engineers (SAE), Detroit, MI (United States), 26-29 Feb = 1996).=20 The hydrogen-fueled engine has been identified as a viable power unit = for ultra-low emission series-hybrid vehicles. The Wankel engine is = particularly well suited to the use of hydrogen fuel, since its design = minimizes most of the combustion difficulties. In order to evaluate the = possibilities offered by the hydrogen fueled rotary engine, dynamometer = tests were conducted with a small (2.2 kW) Wankel engine fueled with = hydrogen. Preliminary results show an absence of the combustion = difficulties present with hydrogen-fueled homogeneous charge piston = engines. The engine was operated unthrottled and power output was = controlled by quality governing, i.e. by varying the fuel-air = equivalence ratio on the lean side of stoichiometric. The ability to = operate with quality governing is made possible by the wide flammability = limits of hydrogen-air mixtures. NO{sub x} emissions are on the order of = 5 ppm for power outputs up to 70% of the maximum attainable on hydrogen = fuel. Thus, by operating with very lean mixtures, which effectively = derates the engine, very low NO{sub x} emissions can be achieved. Since = the rotary engine has a characteristically high power to weight ratio = and a small volume per unit power compared to the piston engine, = operating a rotary engine on hydrogen and derating the power output = could yield an engine with extremely low emissions which still has = weight and volume characteristics comparable to a gasoline-fueled piston = engine. Finally, since engine weight and volume affect vehicle design, = and consequently in-use vehicle power requirements, those factors, as = well as engine efficiency, must be taken into account in evaluating = overall hybrid vehicle efficiency. Now if they had only known about the Prius back then ,or if Toyota only = knew about the small Wankel engine fueled with hydrogen, and its = multifuel capability - then Ron Popiel wouldn't get credit for tying all = the loose ends together into one primo package. Jones ------=_NextPart_000_012A_01C5D64B.4DA1FC80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mark Goldes sent me this site for=20 Wankel's:
http://www.freedom-motors.com/
 
75 hp and only 80 pounds - that is the = perfect size=20 for a Prius-style hybrid. This one is multi-fuel too but apparently they = haven't=20 tried H2.
 
... not ot disappoint "Ron"  = ....
 
But ... OK, there is nothing new under = the sun=20 (almost) ....and it's "tortoises all the way down," but in this report, = S.A.E.=20 did not go far enough 10 years ago:
 
 
They had a different definition of = "hybrid"=20 back then 

Salanki, P.A. (Univ. of = Toronto,=20 Ontario (Canada)); Wallace, J.S.

pp. 35-46 of Strategies = in Electric=20 and Hybrid Vehicle Design Society of Automotive Engineers, Inc., = Warrendale, PA=20 (United States) (1996). 143p. (CONF-960204--: International Congress and = Exposition of the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE), Detroit, MI = (United=20 States), 26-29 Feb 1996).

The hydrogen-fueled = engine has=20 been identified as a viable power unit for ultra-low emission = series-hybrid=20 vehicles. The Wankel engine is particularly well suited to the use of = hydrogen=20 fuel, since its design minimizes most of the combustion difficulties. = In order=20 to evaluate the possibilities offered by the hydrogen fueled rotary = engine,=20 dynamometer tests were conducted with a small (2.2 kW) Wankel engine = fueled=20 with hydrogen. Preliminary results show an absence of the combustion=20 difficulties present with hydrogen-fueled homogeneous charge piston = engines.=20 The engine was operated unthrottled and power output was controlled by = quality=20 governing, i.e. by varying the fuel-air equivalence ratio on the lean = side of=20 stoichiometric. The ability to operate with quality governing is made = possible=20 by the wide flammability limits of hydrogen-air mixtures. NO{sub x} = emissions=20 are on the order of 5 ppm for power outputs up to 70% of the maximum=20 attainable on hydrogen fuel. Thus, by operating with very lean = mixtures, which=20 effectively derates the engine, very low NO{sub x} emissions can be = achieved.=20 Since the rotary engine has a characteristically high power to weight = ratio=20 and a small volume per unit power compared to the piston engine, = operating a=20 rotary engine on hydrogen and derating the power output could yield an = engine=20 with extremely low emissions which still has weight and volume = characteristics=20 comparable to a gasoline-fueled piston engine. Finally, since engine = weight=20 and volume affect vehicle design, and consequently in-use vehicle = power=20 requirements, those factors, as well as engine efficiency, must be = taken into=20 account in evaluating overall hybrid vehicle = efficiency.
 
 
Now if they had only known about the = Prius back=20 then ,or if Toyota only knew about the small Wankel engine fueled with = hydrogen,=20 and its multifuel capability - then Ron Popiel wouldn't get credit for = tying all=20 the loose ends together into one primo package.
 
Jones
------=_NextPart_000_012A_01C5D64B.4DA1FC80-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 21 14:42:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9LLg4H2020036; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 14:42:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9LLg1aJ019981; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 14:42:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 14:42:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051021172331.04217eb0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 17:41:11 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Small Nuclear Power Reactors Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_16332578==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64016 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_16332578==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable All kinds of interesting stuff has been added to this UIC web site lately.= =20 It is impressive. Almost too impressive; I fear they might succeed and hold= =20 back the development of CF! Main index: http://www.uic.com.au/nip.htm Here is a paper about thorium fuel: http://www.uic.com.au/nip67.htm Here is something about small nuclear power reactors, including some that=20 we have discussed here, and some I have never heard of: http://www.uic.com.au/nip60.htm Here is something that sounds like a CF reactor, except it is way more=20 dangerous. The scale and power output is similar to what I envision for a=20 medium-sized community CF generator: "A small-scale design developed by Toshiba Corporation in cooperation with= =20 Japan's Central Research Institute of Electric Power Industry (CRIEPI) and= =20 funded by the Japan Atomic Energy Research Institute (JAERI) is the 5 MWt,= =20 200 kWe Rapid-L, using lithium-6 (a liquid neutron poison) as control=20 medium. It would have 2700 fuel pins of 40-50% enriched uranium nitride=20 with 2600=B0C melting point integrated into a disposable cartridge. The=20 reactivity control system is passive, using lithium expansion modules (LEM)= =20 which give burnup compensation, partial load operation as well as negative= =20 reactivity feedback. As the reactor temperature rises, the lithium expands= =20 into the core, displacing an inert gas. Other kinds of lithium modules,=20 also integrated into the fuel cartridge, shut down and start up the=20 reactor. Cooling is by molten sodium, and with the LEM control system,=20 reactor power is proportional to primary coolant flow rate. Refuelling=20 would be every 10 years in an inert gas environment. Operation would=20 require no skill, due to the inherent safety design features. The whole=20 plant would be about 6.5 metres high and 2 metres diameter." It sounds like a small diesel generator. Or this: "A related project is the Secure Transportable Autonomous Reactor - STAR=20 being developed by Argonne. It a lead-cooled fast neutron modular reactor=20 with passive safety features. Its 400 MWt. size means it can be shipped by= =20 rail and cooled by natural circulation. It uses U-transuranic nitride fuel= =20 in a cassette which is replaced every 15-20 years. The STAR-LM was=20 conceived for power generation, the STAR-H2 is an adaptation for hydrogen=20 production. Its reactor heat at 780=B0C is conveyed by a helium circuit to= =20 drive a separate thermochemical hydrogen production plant, while lower=20 grade heat is harnessed for desalination (multi-stage flash process). Any=20 commercial electricity generation then would be by fuel cells, from the=20 hydrogen." Now THAT'S what I'm talking about! 15-20 year refuelling. Multi-stage flash= =20 desalination. (This is what you need for irrigation. Other techniques leave= =20 too much salt in the water for long-term use. See chapter 8.) It is just a= =20 darn shame the thing is radioactive. Freeman Dyson wrote that the tragedy of the nuclear power industry was that= =20 it grew too big, too quickly. Researchers should have had more time to=20 "play around" with designs. In the 1950s, Dyson worked on one that was=20 "inherently safe" with passive safe features. I believe that evolved into=20 CANDU. The papers on this web site give me the impression that the fission= =20 industry developed backwards. The effusion of ideas and prototypes that we= =20 see today should have taken place before reactors were built on an=20 industrial scale in the 1960s. The designs discussed here make existing=20 reactors look primitive and dangerous. Great stuff. But unfortunately many of these reactors will end up being=20 operated by drunks & idiots, and no matter how you cut it, radioactive fuel= =20 is hazardous. - Jed --=====================_16332578==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable All kinds of interesting stuff has been added to this UIC web site lately. It is impressive. Almost too impressive; I fear they might succeed and hold back the development of CF!

Main index:

http://www.uic.com.au/nip.htm

Here is a paper about thorium fuel:

http://www.uic.com.au/nip67.htm

Here is something about small nuclear power reactors, including some that we have discussed here, and some I have never heard of:

http://www.uic.com.au/nip60.htm

Here is something that sounds like a CF reactor, except it is way more dangerous. The scale and power output is similar to what I envision for a medium-sized community CF generator:

"A small-scale design developed by Toshiba Corporation in cooperation with Japan's Central Research Institute of Electric Power Industry (CRIEPI) and funded by the Japan Atomic Energy Research Institute (JAERI) is the 5 MWt, 200 kWe Rapid-L, using lithium-6 (a liquid neutron poison) as control medium. It would have 2700 fuel pins of 40-50% enriched uranium nitride with 2600=B0C melting point integrated into a disposable cartridge. The reactivity control system is passive, using lithium expansion modules (LEM) which give burnup compensation, partial load operation as well as negative reactivity feedback. As the reactor temperature rises, the lithium expands into the core, displacing an inert gas. Other kinds of lithium modules, also integrated into the fuel cartridge, shut down and start up the reactor. Cooling is by molten sodium, and with the LEM control system, reactor power is proportional to primary coolant flow rate. Refuelling would be every 10 years in an inert gas environment. Operation would require no skill, due to the inherent safety design features. The whole plant would be about 6.5 metres high and 2 metres diameter."

It sounds like a small diesel generator.

Or this:

"A related project is the Secure Transportable Autonomous Reactor - STAR being developed by Argonne. It a lead-cooled fast neutron modular reactor with passive safety features. Its 400 MWt. size means it can be shipped by rail and cooled by natural circulation. It uses U-transuranic nitride fuel in a cassette which is replaced every 15-20 years. The STAR-LM was conceived for power generation, the STAR-H2 is an adaptation for hydrogen production. Its reactor heat at 780=B0C is conveyed by a helium circuit to drive a separate thermochemical hydrogen production plant, while lower grade heat is harnessed for desalination (multi-stage flash process). Any commercial electricity generation then would be by fuel cells, from the hydrogen."

Now THAT'S what I'm talking about! 15-20 year refuelling. Multi-stage flash desalination. (This is what you need for irrigation. Other techniques leave too much salt in the water for long-term use. See chapter 8.) It is just a darn shame the thing is radioactive.

Freeman Dyson wrote that the tragedy of the nuclear power industry was that it grew too big, too quickly. Researchers should have had more time to "play around" with designs. In the 1950s, Dyson worked on one that was "inherently safe" with passive safe features. I believe that evolved into CANDU. The papers on this web site give me the impression that the fission industry developed backwards. The effusion of ideas and prototypes that we see today should have taken place before reactors were built on an industrial scale in the 1960s. The designs discussed here make existing reactors look primitive and dangerous.

Great stuff. But unfortunately many of these reactors will end up being operated by drunks & idiots, and no matter how you cut it, radioactive fuel is hazardous.

- Jed
--=====================_16332578==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 21 14:54:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9LLsHgT032235; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 14:54:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9LLsFL2032224; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 14:54:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 14:54:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051021174148.0425deb0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 17:53:40 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Hybrid design In-Reply-To: <007e01c5d664$af523080$6401a8c0 NuDell> References: <4358F795.8000007 iinet.net.au> <003d01c5d657$a9f32430$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051021121032.04031be0 pop.mindspring.com> <007e01c5d664$af523080$6401a8c0 NuDell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64017 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >Let's see... for the plug-in hybrid. Even without a major breakthrough in >batteries or H2 storage, one could have a vehicle with total electric >motor drivetrain, enough batteries for a 25+ mile commute (say 6- large >marine grade lead-acid batteries . . . I think modern advanced batteries would be better. The range is much better. Over the life of the car they are cheaper. There are no environmental problems recycling them as far as I know. (There better not be, or Toyota's headquarters will be besieged by hordes of environmentalist tree-hugger tea-drinking Prius owners like me! Hey, we can do baaad-assed confrontation, too! Don't push us!) >- 240 pounds). A small 1 liter gen-set for longer highway use or to >recharge the batteries in an emergency. I do not see the point of this. The ICE should have enough power to keep the car at maximum speed by itself. What would you plan to do with an underpowered ICE? You would have to pull over, run the ICE for a while until you got a sufficient recharge, and then travel another 20 miles. That sounds dangerous. This electric-only hybrid design is referred to as "serial hybrid." The Prius, Insight and other modern commercial designs are all parallel hybrids. Serial hybrids were first made in the early 20th century. They are simpler, but I think less efficient. The Prius transmission is innovative and interesting, and quite unlike a conventional automobile. It employs a planet gear. It reminds me of the old Sturmey-Archer three-speed bicycle hub gears of yore. Quintessential British technology. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 21 18:08:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9M18LbX019735; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 18:08:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9M18H1l019689; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 18:08:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 18:08:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Cheapest Way To Fix The Energy Crisis (and lots of other crises) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 11:07:52 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <48vift$1dfkd9r mxip07a.cluster1.charter.net> In-Reply-To: <48vift$1dfkd9r mxip07a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta02sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.77.227] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Sat, 22 Oct 2005 01:07:51 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j9M17vJC019517 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64018 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to OrionWorks's message of Fri, 21 Oct 2005 11:54:34 -0500: Hi, [snip] >Japan may soon be forced to let more foreigners in to both settle and help supplement their dwindling workforce. I'm sure there's plenty of willing labor that can be had possibly from such places like the Philippians, Korea, (North Korea comes to mind), and China as well (more Chinese males than females are born there due to a tendency of families to abort unwanted females). But only if many of these countries could just get over a long history of hatred for each other. Perhaps the economics of the situation will make the memories of long-standing atrocities & hatred it justifiably generated unprofitable to maintain. I can only hope. [snip] They appear to have opted for a different solution. Instead of importing cheap labor the manufacturing jobs are being exported to cheap labor countries, e.g. through investment in China. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 21 19:55:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9M2sev8028465; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 19:54:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9M2sHUV028249; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 19:54:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 19:54:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: ICEs can't burn h2 Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 12:53:38 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <4358F795.8000007@iinet.net.au> <003d01c5d657$a9f32430$6401a8c0@NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051021121032.04031be0@pop.mindspring.com> <007e01c5d664$af523080$6401a8c0@NuDell> In-Reply-To: <007e01c5d664$af523080$6401a8c0 NuDell> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta02ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.77.227] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Sat, 22 Oct 2005 02:53:38 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j9M2rp3U027887 Resent-Message-ID: <-88J5B.A.M5G.WnaWDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64019 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Fri, 21 Oct 2005 10:27:16 -0700: Hi, [snip] >Let's see... for the plug-in hybrid. Even without a major >breakthrough in batteries or H2 storage, one could have a vehicle >with total electric motor drivetrain, enough batteries for a 25+ >mile commute (say 6- large marine grade lead-acid batteries - 240 >pounds). The newer & lighter quick recharge lithium ion batteries would be a better than lead-acid batteries, if new vehicles are being built anyway. >A small 1 liter gen-set for longer highway use or to >recharge the batteries in an emergency. The H2 could be carried in >a single pressurized cylinder in the safest place in an automobile >(under the rear seat) giving a 200 mile range - when needed. In a >normal commute, it would be all electric with a nightly recharge. 1 L is a bit small all by itself. However if one lets the vehicle know ahead of time that the trip is going to be a long one, then the H2 motor can run from the outset of the journey, topping up the batteries from the start. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 21 23:16:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9M6FgGo000401; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 23:15:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9M6FeWn000379; Fri, 21 Oct 2005 23:15:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 23:15:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 01:15:13 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Mastropaolo interview Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="============_-1082160749==_ma============" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64020 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --============_-1082160749==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" I'm watching the Biologist Joseph Mastropaolo present his case that creationism is scientific, and that evolution is a religion. He is offering a $10,000 prize an any evolutionist who is willing to meet him in court to present their case, but none of the scientists listed were willing to debate him. www.csulb.edu/~jmastrop/prize.html --============_-1082160749==_ma============ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Mastropaolo interview
I'm watching  the Biologist Joseph Mastropaolo present his case that creationism is scientific, and that evolution is a religion. He is offering a $10,000 prize an any evolutionist who is willing to meet him in court to present their case, but none of the scientists listed were willing to debate him. www.csulb.edu/~jmastrop/prize.html
--============_-1082160749==_ma============-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 22 01:12:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9M8C5aJ009048; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 01:12:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9M8BwM9008980; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 01:11:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 01:11:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Message-ID: <4359F436.7020305 iinet.net.au> Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 18:11:34 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Imagining the FFF(TM) future-fuel-farm References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051019151644.0454aaf0 pop.mindspring.com> <010801c5d4ef$0e7b21b0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <017401c5d514$36ed22e0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <4358FFCA.3040803@iinet.net.au> <007101c5d661$7ea76ac0$6401a8c0@NuDell> In-Reply-To: <007101c5d661$7ea76ac0$6401a8c0 NuDell> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64021 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > Wesley Bruce > >> Are you aware of the bio-methane projects of the 1970's? See page 15 >> of this PDF >> http://www.pacaqua.org/Documents/Marine_Macroalgae_Culture.pdf > > > Thanks! I had forgotten about this. The whole document is interesting > for both vegitarians and anti-oil ecologists. Nori lovers will not > want their food supply threatened however ... and tank farming is too > expensive for fuel anyway. > > Open-ocean tethered farming, as on page 15 might be an option... > but... one of the better of these ocean biomass ideas once seemed to > be based on open ocean "farming" of the Sargasso Sea. There you would > not need permanent structures or tethers - just a catamaran style > factory boat with open-weave catchment filters between the two hulls. > http://www.smithsonianmag.si.edu/smithsonian/issues98/nov98/sargasso.html > http://plankt.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/20/12/2233 > > There seems to be a forum dedicated to ocean-biomass ideas for > "gasification" but I can't get access to all of it: > http://listserv.repp.org/pipermail/gasification/ > > and they have mentioned some of the numbers > http://listserv.repp.org/pipermail/gasification/2003-November/000427.html > > Such as "One Million Square Miles" of biomass... !! > > Wonder why they focus on gasification instead of ethanol? I was about > to temporarily give up on the Amazon bio-ethanol idea, but hey... > There are chemicals in seaweed that may make ethanol production problematic. I know of many ethanol projects but none with sea weeds. Drying and burning produces a lot of smoke due to water retaining gels and thus poor combustion. > ...wow, just look at those number for the Sargasso sea! Even at fairly > low density of BTU per area, there could easily be 100 quads of annual > biomass in there! However, this will certainly inflame and infuriate > the seaweed-huggers (who most likely have been carefully chosen and > funded by Exxon to pounce on any mention of an alternative to Arab > oil).... > > Jones The Sargasso appears to be light and grazing limited. Nutrients don't produce a bloom unless there is a nutrient shortage for some other reason. Note the diversity of the sargasso may have been reduced drasticly during WW2. Many ships tried to avoid German subs by slipping south via the sargasso. The Germans got some and the resulting oil spills may have wiped out the larger species. That would explain why 12th to 18th century drawing of the organisms vary from what is found today and why crews feared the weed. There were larger and denser rafts in the past. This is however only a speculation on my part. All biomass projects must recover all non atmospheric nutrients and return them to the soil. Otherwise they will not be sustainable. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 22 08:21:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9MFKmX2027997; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 08:21:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9MFKier027972; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 08:20:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 08:20:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000d01c5d71c$1df97130$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051019151644.0454aaf0 pop.mindspring.com> <010801c5d4ef$0e7b21b0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <017401c5d514$36ed22e0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <4358FFCA.3040803@iinet.net.au> <007101c5d661$7ea76ac0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <4359F436.7020305@iinet.net.au> Subject: Re: Imagining the FFF(TM) future-fuel-farm Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 08:20:20 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64022 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Wesley Bruce writes, > The Sargasso appears to be light and grazing limited. I have seen that claim, and the data for it is weak. Plus, but once again, this is based on the assumption of harvesting but not replenishing the bio-system after harvesting. As you probably are aware from looking at proposals, this is the ecosystem where iron-ore dispersal has been demonstrated to do amazing things as a growth stimulant. At the current prices of iron ore and ethanol the value increase is quite dramatic compared with having to use ammonium fertilizers. Instead of 10-1 return you get semething like 500-1. Plus subgrade mineral ores can be theoretically used as ocean fertilizer - ores that are not valuable for metal extraction. > Nutrients don't produce a bloom unless there is a nutrient > shortage for some other reason. The ideal situation is to conitnually harvest and disperse iron and other minerals in the "just-harvested" or depleted water, astern. You would need a continuous parade of tenders bringing in mineral ore and taking away ethanol. Let's make it clear that any proposal that cannot be made sustainable over century-long time spans, should not even be considered. All of these plans should both "add" as they "substract". In the case of Sargasso seaweed, which is spanning the most solar-intensive part of the globe (and thus its high density) - the removal of biomass is like the removal of solar energy... and just might possibly serve the added ecological goal of "lowering" ocean temperatures slightly if done on a massive scale. Certainly the Sargasso removes more CO2 than any coherent ecosystem I know of and this will be boosted, not lessened, with sustainable harvesting. > All biomass projects must recover all non atmospheric nutrients > and return them to the soil. Otherwise they will not be > sustainable. Couldn't have said it better... except here we are returning nutrients to an ocean which is functioning as soil. And ,as for the carbohydrates in seaweed not being the optimum makeup for ethanol, that is probably just a matter of genetically modifying the fermentation bacteria - which is a technology that we seem to have mastered pretty well. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 22 08:47:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9MFkoQt006184; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 08:47:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9MFknnm006169; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 08:46:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 08:46:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <019601c5d71f$c31a83e0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <4358F795.8000007@iinet.net.au> <003d01c5d657$a9f32430$6401a8c0@NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051021121032.04031be0@pop.mindspring.com> <007e01c5d664$af523080$6401a8c0@NuDell> Subject: Re: ICEs can't burn h2 Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 08:46:26 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64023 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote, > The newer & lighter quick recharge lithium ion batteries would > be > a better than lead-acid batteries, if new vehicles are being > built > anyway. Jed mentioned the same thing - and these are superior batteries weightwise, but way too costly for now, and they will need periodic replacment. They are not perfected yet, even for laptops - as HP just recalled several million lithium-ions which were igniting under that low-stress situations. You do not want that risk on the highway. The proposed lithium upgrade to the Prius, such as the reported replacement of the standard 1.3-kilowatt-hour (kWh) battery with a 9-kWh lithium-ion battery pack from Valence Technology in Austin, Texas is horribly expensive compared to lead-acid - what 5 times more for the same power? Maybe prices will come down, but I was basing the redesign effort on what is actually economically doable today. >>A small 1 liter gen-set for longer highway use or to >>recharge the batteries in an emergency. The H2 could be carried >>in >>a single pressurized cylinder in the safest place in an >>automobile >>(under the rear seat) giving a 200 mile range - when needed. In >>a >>normal commute, it would be all electric with a nightly >>recharge. > 1 L is a bit small all by itself. However if one lets the > vehicle > know ahead of time that the trip is going to be a long one, then > the H2 motor can run from the outset of the journey, topping up > the batteries from the start. Yes. I should have been more clear on this, but it is obvious that one should have the capability of using both the motor and the batteries together on the highway. BTW did you see the small Wankel? It is way less than 1 L, and only 80 pounds. Fitted with a 50 Kw generator, this genset will be adequate to propel the vehicle at highway speeds alone. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 22 09:21:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9MGKnV5021817; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 09:21:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9MGKlRv021794; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 09:20:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 09:20:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <019f01c5d724$84edd220$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <4358F795.8000007@iinet.net.au> <003d01c5d657$a9f32430$6401a8c0@NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051021121032.04031be0@pop.mindspring.com> <007e01c5d664$af523080$6401a8c0@NuDell> <019601c5d71f$c31a83e0$6401a8c0@NuDell> Subject: Lithium battery recalls Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 09:20:29 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <2wh5O.A.XUF.ebmWDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64024 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I shouldn't have put all the blame on HP as their most recent recall of lithium batteries was only for 130,000 or so, but earlier this year Apple recalled a similar number, and it was the 5-6th Apple lithium recall. Overseas (Japanese) recalls of lithium batteries do not get reported here, and some companies like Dell try to do it silently: http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1759,161867,00.asp Anyway the lithium battery is far from perfect, and don't be surpirsed to see it banned altogether should these recalls continue at this pace, or - more likely - if a lithium-ion malfuntion on an airliner brings it down. Sooner or later a watchdog group is going to total up the numbers, and it probably will be in excess of a million recalled. These batteries typically go for $125-150, so this is a big problem that is far from being solved - ....and one wonders if LENR may not be partly to blame !!! As of now... for automotive use.. I'm not sure I would want anything other that the heavy-weight lead acid. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 22 09:27:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9MGQMPw024585; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 09:26:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9MGQLmv024553; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 09:26:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 09:26:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <6453774.1129998360649.JavaMail.root mswamui-thinleaf.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 12:26:00 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: ICEs can't burn h2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64025 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene writes: >> The newer & lighter quick recharge lithium ion batteries would >> be >> a better than lead-acid batteries, if new vehicles are being >> built >> anyway. > > Jed mentioned the same thing - and these are superior batteries > weightwise, but way too costly for now, and they will need > periodic replacment. Note that the Prius now uses NiMH batteries, no lead-acid. When I said "advanced batteries are cheaper over the life of the car," I meant the NiMH ones they now use. Here is an interesting paper about hybrid batteries and architecture (parallel, dual-mode, etc.): http://www.ctts.nrel.gov/analysis/pdfs/31306.pdf - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 22 11:05:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9MI4hM6014324; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 11:04:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9MI4cbR014226; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 11:04:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 11:04:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001601c5d733$01a917d0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "Jed Rothwell" , References: <6453774.1129998360649.JavaMail.root mswamui-thinleaf.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Subject: Re: ICEs can't burn h2 Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 11:04:11 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0013_01C5D6F8.54CE3200" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64026 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C5D6F8.54CE3200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jed, =20 > Note that the Prius now uses NiMH batteries, no lead-acid. When I said = "advanced batteries are cheaper over the life of the car," I meant the = NiMH ones they now use. What is the performance of these in AH/Kg for comparative purposes? Plus.... Don't forget two other advancements - ultracaps and = ultraconductors. Here are some numbers form web sources last year. The ultracap may be = better now. For an advanced SLA - Lead Acid-Battery: 12V 13AH 4200g For the UltraCap: 350 Farad 2.5V 60g ERGO SLA Battery: 13AH / 4.3Kg =3D 3.02AH/Kg =20 let's say a performance index of 3 UltraCap: Q=3DCV =3D> 350F * 2.5V =3D 875 Coulombs 1 Amp=3D1 = Coulomb/Sec =3D> 1 AmpHour =3D 3600 Coulombs =3D> 875 / 3600 =3D 0.243AH = 0.243AH / .06Kg =3D 4.05AH/Kg=20 let's say a performance index of 4=20 That is a third better now. The Ultraconductor of MPI, when used in a = capacitive mode may double the SLA, according to Mark Goldes. That would = be ~6 or hopefully higher. Of course the vapor-ware hydrino battery is supposed to be about 50...?? Where does NiMH fit in? The nice thing about UltraCaps, according to these sources who have = actually used them, is that they are in production now, and the cost is = dropping but still high and you can charge them VERY fast !! TheSealed = Lead Acid (SLA) battery, in comparison, takes a LONG time to charge (4A = max charge rate). This can be important in certain hybrid designs. It is a real mystery why Apple did not go with ultracaps for the nano - = as it takes a couple of hours to charge. Knowing S. Jobs, this is = probably going to be announced next week... ;-) Jones ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C5D6F8.54CE3200 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jed,
 
> Note that the Prius now = uses NiMH=20 batteries, no lead-acid. When I said "advanced batteries are cheaper = over the=20 life of the car," I meant the NiMH ones they now use.
 
What is the performance of these in = AH/Kg for=20 comparative purposes?
 
Plus.... Don't forget two other = advancements -=20 ultracaps and ultraconductors.
 
Here are some = numbers form web=20 sources last year. The ultracap may be better now.
 
For an advanced SLA  - Lead = Acid-Battery: 12V=20 13AH 4200g

For the UltraCap: 350 Farad  2.5V  =20 60g
 
ERGO

SLA Battery:     13AH / 4.3Kg =3D = 3.02AH/Kg 
let's say a performance index of 3

UltraCap: =     Q=3DCV=20 =3D> 350F * 2.5V =3D 875 Coulombs    1 Amp=3D1 = Coulomb/Sec =3D> 1=20 AmpHour =3D 3600 Coulombs =3D> 875 / 3600 =3D = 0.243AH    0.243AH /=20 .06Kg =3D 4.05AH/Kg 
let's say a performance index of 4 
 
That is a third better now. The = Ultraconductor of=20 MPI, when used in a capacitive mode may double the SLA, according to = Mark=20 Goldes. That would be ~6 or hopefully higher.
 
Of course the vapor-ware hydrino = battery is=20 supposed to be about 50...??
 
Where does NiMH fit in?

The nice thing about UltraCaps, according to these sources who = have=20 actually used them, is that they are in production now, and the = cost is=20 dropping but still high and you can charge them VERY fast !! = TheSealed Lead=20 Acid (SLA) battery, in comparison,  takes a LONG time to charge (4A = max=20 charge rate).  This can be important in certain hybrid=20 designs.
 
It is a real mystery why Apple did not go with ultracaps for  = the nano=20 - as it takes a couple of hours to charge. Knowing S. Jobs, this is = probably=20 going to be announced next week... ;-)
 
Jones
------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C5D6F8.54CE3200-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 22 11:20:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9MIKHvD026131; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 11:20:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9MIKGZh026123; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 11:20:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 11:20:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002901c5d735$33dce400$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <6453774.1129998360649.JavaMail.root mswamui-thinleaf.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <001601c5d733$01a917d0$6401a8c0@NuDell> Subject: Re: ICEs can't burn h2 Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 11:19:54 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0026_01C5D6FA.871C3CF0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64027 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01C5D6FA.871C3CF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Correction: Ultraconductors are expected to eventually be contenders for = energy storage and to have twice the energy density of a *flywheel* = which is another high density storage option in contention for the = next-generation of the perfect plug-in. For now, It could be that a combination of (best available) battery and = ultracap (for quick charging) could go into production, almost = immediately, using an aircooled Wankel multifuel genset. This should knock 300 pounds off the final weight of the present Prius. = Using carbon-fiber body panels and frame, this new plug-in vehicle could = also be an ultra-light, even with NiMH batteries. Isn't it fun to be a futurist... ----- Original Message -----=20 > Note that the Prius now uses NiMH batteries, no lead-acid. When I said = "advanced batteries are cheaper over the life of the car," I meant the = NiMH ones they now use. What is the performance of these in AH/Kg for comparative purposes? Plus.... Don't forget two other advancements - ultracaps and = ultraconductors. Here are some numbers form web sources last year. The ultracap may be = better now. For an advanced SLA - Lead Acid-Battery: 12V 13AH 4200g For the UltraCap: 350 Farad 2.5V 60g ERGO SLA Battery: 13AH / 4.3Kg =3D 3.02AH/Kg =20 let's say a performance index of 3 UltraCap: Q=3DCV =3D> 350F * 2.5V =3D 875 Coulombs 1 Amp=3D1 = Coulomb/Sec =3D> 1 AmpHour =3D 3600 Coulombs =3D> 875 / 3600 =3D 0.243AH = 0.243AH / .06Kg =3D 4.05AH/Kg=20 let's say a performance index of 4=20 That is a third better now. The Ultraconductor of MPI, when used in a = capacitive mode may double the SLA, according to Mark Goldes. That would = be ~6 or hopefully higher. Of course the vapor-ware hydrino battery is supposed to be about 50...?? Where does NiMH fit in? The nice thing about UltraCaps, according to these sources who have = actually used them, is that they are in production now, and the cost is = dropping but still high and you can charge them VERY fast !! TheSealed = Lead Acid (SLA) battery, in comparison, takes a LONG time to charge (4A = max charge rate). This can be important in certain hybrid designs. It is a real mystery why Apple did not go with ultracaps for the nano - = as it takes a couple of hours to charge. Knowing S. Jobs, this is = probably going to be announced next week... ;-) Jones ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01C5D6FA.871C3CF0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Correction: Ultraconductors = are expected=20 to eventually be contenders for energy storage and to have twice = the energy=20 density of a *flywheel*  which is another high density storage = option in=20 contention for the next-generation of the perfect = plug-in.
 
For now, It could be that a combination = of (best=20 available) battery and ultracap (for quick charging) could go into = production,=20 almost immediately, using an aircooled Wankel multifuel=20 genset.
 
This should knock 300 pounds off the = final weight=20 of the present Prius. Using carbon-fiber body panels and frame, = this new=20 plug-in vehicle could also be an ultra-light, even with NiMH=20 batteries.
 
Isn't it fun to be a = futurist...
 
 
----- Original Message ----- =

> Note that=20 the Prius now uses NiMH batteries, no lead-acid. When I said "advanced = batteries=20 are cheaper over the life of the car," I meant the NiMH ones they now=20 use.


What is the performance of these in AH/Kg for = comparative=20 purposes?

Plus.... Don't forget two other advancements - = ultracaps and=20 ultraconductors.

Here are some numbers form web sources last = year. The=20 ultracap may be better now.

For an advanced SLA  - Lead=20 Acid-Battery: 12V 13AH 4200g

For the UltraCap: 350 Farad =20 2.5V   60g

ERGO

SLA = Battery:    =20 13AH / 4.3Kg =3D 3.02AH/Kg 
let's say a performance index of=20 3

UltraCap:     Q=3DCV =3D> 350F * 2.5V = =3D 875=20 Coulombs    1 Amp=3D1 Coulomb/Sec =3D> 1 AmpHour =3D = 3600 Coulombs=20 =3D> 875 / 3600 =3D 0.243AH    0.243AH / .06Kg =3D = 4.05AH/Kg=20
let's say a performance index of 4

That is a third better = now. The=20 Ultraconductor of MPI, when used in a capacitive mode may double the = SLA,=20 according to Mark Goldes. That would be ~6 or hopefully = higher.

Of course=20 the vapor-ware hydrino battery is supposed to be about = 50...??

Where does=20 NiMH fit in?

The nice thing about UltraCaps, according to these = sources=20 who have actually used them, is that they are in production now, and the = cost is=20 dropping but still high and you can charge them VERY fast !! TheSealed = Lead Acid=20 (SLA) battery, in comparison,  takes a LONG time to charge (4A max = charge=20 rate).  This can be important in certain hybrid designs.

It = is a=20 real mystery why Apple did not go with ultracaps for  the nano - as = it=20 takes a couple of hours to charge. Knowing S. Jobs, this is probably = going to be=20 announced next week... ;-)

Jones
------=_NextPart_000_0026_01C5D6FA.871C3CF0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 22 11:27:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9MIQMi8028821; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 11:26:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9MIQEtL028746; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 11:26:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 11:26:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 14:24:04 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Say it ain't so In-reply-to: To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_hfr8syCO/bffUegUnF2l9w)" User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64028 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --Boundary_(ID_hfr8syCO/bffUegUnF2l9w) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Ok then a conventional warhead. Harry leaking pen wrote: it would, because then youd have the shaft acting as a channel. but... have you SEEN the ground around an underground test? the concussive wave shatters rock miles away. in space, without a contraint, and a limit to how far the energy could be dissapated? a mile wide asteroid would shatter if it were rocky. mettalic, not so much, but it would still break up. On 10/20/05, Harry Veeder wrote: If it is a really big asteroid I doubt a small warhead would split it. I think boring into the surface before detonation would result in a more controlled thrust then a detonation on or near the surface. Harry leaking pen wrote: penetration would be easy. an object that distant, just escape velocity would be enough to punch pretty deep, and with extra fuel, we can get missiles going pretty darn fast. its a matter of keeping the bomb intact, and the fact that penetration would shatter it, which would STILL be bad. we're talking moving, not blowing up. On 10/20/05, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: Harry Veeder wrote: > Such technology may be useful for diverting large asteroids on a > collisions course with earth. Unfortunately the "ground-penetrating" bombs are somewhat misleadingly named. They're really just big darts, heavy and pointed at one end, dropped from a high altitude and carried down by gravity. They "penetrate" because they've got a lot of momentum and a narrow point and they just punch a hole in the ground. In consequence there's no way we could get one to "penetrate" into an asteroid in order to split it, for instance -- the bombs can't dig or drill their way in and they don't have the kind of propulsion system they'd need to let them push their way in. You'd need to start over from scratch to design one that would "penetrate" an unearthly body. > Harry > > leaking pen wrote: > > they ARE still researching battlefield nukes, and the elimination > of fallout is being done by the fact that the ones being developed > are ground penetrating bunker busters. make a nice glass cave > thats self sealing. > > On 10/19/05, *Stephen A. Lawrence* wrote: > > > > thomas malloy wrote: > > > My friend was going on about the Bali bomb having been a nuke. > > Nonsense, I replied, if it was, there would be radioactivity. My > > friend countered that this was a clean atom bomb. My reply > was, this > > doesn't exist. Send me the URL, which he did, see > > http://joevialls.net/nuke/bali_micro_nuke.htm . The first > red flag was > > Zionist plot, like the Israelis have nothing better to do > than blow up > > night clubs in the pacific. > > Right, well said. > > Real mico-nukes are hard to produce. The article mentions the > object > achieved "critical mass" -- no, not really, micro-nukes don't > do that in > the conventional sense. They need to be imploded to extreme > density, as > I understand it, by a perfectly shaped, very powerful trigger > charge in > the form of a spherical shell of high explosive which > compresses the > fissile material to extreme density, in order to get a chain > reaction > going without requiring a critical mass. (Critical mass under > ordinary > conditions is something on the order of 30 pounds of uranium, > so says > Wikipedia, and it makes for quite a good-sized "bang" -- not > "micro" at > all.) > > Research to produce really small versions of such devices > would be a > major project, and IIRC it has (supposedly) not been done: the > U.S. > abandoned research into battlefield nukes (which is what we're > talking > about here) quite some time back because it conflicted with > the tenets > of MAD. The Bush administration was going to restart said > research, but > I don't know if that actually happened; a lot of people found > the idea > pretty objectionable, because the existence of effective > battlefield > nukes would make it too easy to escalate a conventional war into a > nuclear one. As long as the first nuclear step is a _big_ > step it's > less likely that anybody will take it (or so goes the theory). > > As to radiation, it's really unclear how you'd go about > eliminating the > radiation burst when the bomb goes off. Like, really, _really_ > unclear. It's also unclear how you eliminate _all_ fallout, > which is > necessary if you are to fool everyone into thinking it wasn't > a nuclear > explosive when they examine the site afterwards. I mean, > what's the > uranium/plutonium/whatnot turn into that's totally > non-radioactive? > Breaks all the way down into iron, maybe? Hmmm... > > But really, you said it all, up top: Anyone who starts by > asserting > this is a "Zionist plot" is already lost in the weeds and I > think we can > disregard the rest of the page, because that initial assertion > makes no > sense. > > > > > > > > > --Boundary_(ID_hfr8syCO/bffUegUnF2l9w) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Re: Say it ain't so Ok then a conventional warhead.
Harry

leaking pen wrote:

it would, because then youd have the shaft acting as a channel.  but...  have you SEEN the ground around an underground test?  the concussive wave shatters rock miles away.  in space, without a contraint, and a limit to how far the energy could be dissapated?  a mile wide asteroid would shatter if it were rocky.  mettalic, not so much, but it would still break up.

On 10/20/05, Harry Veeder <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca> wrote:
If it is a really big asteroid I doubt a small warhead would split it.
I think boring into the surface before detonation would result in a more controlled
thrust then a detonation on or near the surface.

Harry



leaking pen wrote:

penetration would be easy.  an object that distant, just escape velocity would be enough to punch pretty deep, and with extra fuel, we can get missiles going pretty darn fast.  its a matter of keeping the bomb intact, and the fact that penetration would shatter it, which would STILL be bad.  we're talking moving, not blowing up.

On 10/20/05, Stephen A. Lawrence <salaw pobox.com> wrote:


Harry Veeder wrote:

> Such technology may be useful for diverting large asteroids on a
> collisions course with earth.

Unfortunately the "ground-penetrating" bombs are somewhat misleadingly
named.

They're really just big darts, heavy and pointed at one end, dropped
from a high altitude and carried down by gravity.  They "penetrate"
because they've got a lot of momentum and a narrow point and they just
punch a hole in the ground.

In consequence there's no way we could get one to "penetrate" into an
asteroid in order to split it, for instance -- the bombs can't dig or
drill their way in and they don't have the kind of propulsion system
they'd need to let them push their way in.  You'd need to start over
from scratch to design one that would "penetrate" an unearthly body.


> Harry
>
> leaking pen wrote:
>
>     they ARE still researching battlefield nukes, and the elimination
>     of fallout is being done by the fact that the ones being developed
>     are ground penetrating bunker busters.  make a nice glass cave
>     thats self sealing.
>
>     On 10/19/05, *Stephen A. Lawrence* <salaw pobox.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>         thomas malloy wrote:
>
>         > My friend was going on about the Bali bomb having been a nuke.
>         > Nonsense, I replied, if it was, there would be radioactivity. My
>         > friend countered that this was a clean atom bomb. My reply
>         was, this
>         > doesn't exist. Send me the URL, which he did, see
>         > http://joevialls.net/nuke/bali_micro_nuke.htm . The first
>         red flag was
>         > Zionist plot, like the Israelis have nothing better to do
>         than blow up
>         > night clubs in the pacific.
>
>         Right, well said.
>
>         Real mico-nukes are hard to produce.  The article mentions the
>         object
>         achieved "critical mass" -- no, not really, micro-nukes don't
>         do that in
>         the conventional sense.  They need to be imploded to extreme
>         density, as
>         I understand it, by a perfectly shaped, very powerful trigger
>         charge in
>         the form of a spherical shell of high explosive which
>         compresses the
>         fissile material to extreme density, in order to get a chain
>         reaction
>         going without requiring a critical mass.  (Critical mass under
>         ordinary
>         conditions is something on the order of 30 pounds of uranium,
>         so says
>         Wikipedia, and it makes for quite a good-sized "bang" -- not
>         "micro" at
>         all.)
>
>         Research to produce really small versions of such devices
>         would be a
>         major project, and IIRC it has (supposedly) not been done: the
>         U.S.
>         abandoned research into battlefield nukes (which is what we're
>         talking
>         about here) quite some time back because it conflicted with
>         the tenets
>         of MAD.  The Bush administration was going to restart said
>         research, but
>         I don't know if that actually happened; a lot of people found
>         the idea
>         pretty objectionable, because the existence of effective
>         battlefield
>         nukes would make it too easy to escalate a conventional war into a
>         nuclear one.  As long as the first nuclear step is a _big_
>         step it's
>         less likely that anybody will take it (or so goes the theory).
>
>         As to radiation, it's really unclear how you'd go about
>         eliminating the
>         radiation burst when the bomb goes off.  Like, really, _really_
>         unclear.  It's also unclear how you eliminate _all_ fallout,
>         which is
>         necessary if you are to fool everyone into thinking it wasn't
>         a nuclear
>         explosive when they examine the site afterwards.  I mean,
>         what's the
>         uranium/plutonium/whatnot turn into that's totally
>         non-radioactive?
>         Breaks all the way down into iron, maybe?  Hmmm...
>
>         But really, you said it all, up top:  Anyone who starts by
>         asserting
>         this is a "Zionist plot" is already lost in the weeds and I
>         think we can
>         disregard the rest of the page, because that initial assertion
>         makes no
>         sense.
>
>         >
>         >
>
>
>
>







--Boundary_(ID_hfr8syCO/bffUegUnF2l9w)-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 22 13:17:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9MKHH3f012471; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 13:17:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9MKHEfW012440; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 13:17:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 13:17:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Originating-IP: [4.88.39.164] Mime-Version: 1.0 From: "gesrebspar juno.com" Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 20:14:48 GMT To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: ICEs can't burn h2 X-Mailer: Webmail Version 3.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <20051022.131532.10269.34536 webmail58.nyc.untd.com> X-ContentStamp: 2:1:3070892716 X-UNTD-OriginStamp: GUNT6dKCgH8aoKLPKyRSHpXaeLD3/qikD5jHTt2g0MadU4nbLxQdkw== X-UNTD-Peer-Info: 10.141.27.198|webmail58.nyc.untd.com|webmail58.nyc.untd.com|gesrebspar juno.com Resent-Message-ID: <7clC5B.A.UCD.I5pWDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64029 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vortexians- We still need heat in the winter in most countries. I can not see going back to the cold climate of the original VW beetle. Give me a water cooled . -ges- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 22 14:22:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9MLMCdb008408; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 14:22:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9MLMAh6008390; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 14:22:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 14:22:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [68.217.122.160] X-Originating-Email: [caliostro1795 hotmail.com] X-Sender: caliostro1795 hotmail.com From: "Alex Caliostro" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Wind Power Doubt Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 15:21:39 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Oct 2005 21:21:39.0806 (UTC) FILETIME=[97702FE0:01C5D74E] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64030 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory?id=1234036 Dutch windmills at risk from climate change Reuters Oct 20, 2005 — By Anna Mudeva DE BILT, Netherlands (Reuters) - Windmills, one of the Netherlands' trademarks, may go idle because of less wind as a result of climate change, Dutch scientists predict.
_________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 22 15:24:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9MMNhlb032637; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 15:23:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9MMNdWv032592; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 15:23:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 15:23:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=OKYT+lMaeug2KcAmn6fYdCW6cULWvRE9CqGODSCPr5K3UeBvGGOr0aXcOVebug6yXDBwARUyLPLsCMATkzdk5r2a2kjFxmM+yp9kWK6W+PAYSh0zvcsGQrT84+0Aj8q/siqj74ptAA8bVTTdC1QtlTULl0rMAvMFg04UrdgYUGM= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 15:23:20 -0700 From: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Say it ain't so In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_9937_12478826.1130019800734" References: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64031 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_9937_12478826.1130019800734 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline but its still not the most effecient use of energy On 10/22/05, Harry Veeder wrote: > > Ok then a conventional warhead. > Harry > > leaking pen wrote: > > it would, because then youd have the shaft acting as a channel. but... > have you SEEN the ground around an underground test? the concussive wave > shatters rock miles away. in space, without a contraint, and a limit to h= ow > far the energy could be dissapated? a mile wide asteroid would shatter if= it > were rocky. mettalic, not so much, but it would still break up. > > On 10/20/05, *Harry Veeder* wrote: > > If it is a really big asteroid I doubt a small warhead would split it. > I think boring into the surface before detonation would result in a more > controlled > thrust then a detonation on or near the surface. > > Harry > > > > leaking pen wrote: > > penetration would be easy. an object that distant, just escape velocity > would be enough to punch pretty deep, and with extra fuel, we can get > missiles going pretty darn fast. its a matter of keeping the bomb intact, > and the fact that penetration would shatter it, which would STILL be bad. > we're talking moving, not blowing up. > > On 10/20/05, *Stephen A. Lawrence* wrote: > > > > Harry Veeder wrote: > > > Such technology may be useful for diverting large asteroids on a > > collisions course with earth. > > Unfortunately the "ground-penetrating" bombs are somewhat misleadingly > named. > > They're really just big darts, heavy and pointed at one end, dropped > from a high altitude and carried down by gravity. They "penetrate" > because they've got a lot of momentum and a narrow point and they just > punch a hole in the ground. > > In consequence there's no way we could get one to "penetrate" into an > asteroid in order to split it, for instance -- the bombs can't dig or > drill their way in and they don't have the kind of propulsion system > they'd need to let them push their way in. You'd need to start over > from scratch to design one that would "penetrate" an unearthly body. > > > > Harry > > > > leaking pen wrote: > > > > they ARE still researching battlefield nukes, and the elimination > > of fallout is being done by the fact that the ones being developed > > are ground penetrating bunker busters. make a nice glass cave > > thats self sealing. > > > > On 10/19/05, *Stephen A. Lawrence* wrote: > > > > > > > > thomas malloy wrote: > > > > > My friend was going on about the Bali bomb having been a nuke. > > > Nonsense, I replied, if it was, there would be radioactivity. My > > > friend countered that this was a clean atom bomb. My reply > > was, this > > > doesn't exist. Send me the URL, which he did, see > > > http://joevialls.net/nuke/bali_micro_nuke.htm . The first > > red flag was > > > Zionist plot, like the Israelis have nothing better to do > > than blow up > > > night clubs in the pacific. > > > > Right, well said. > > > > Real mico-nukes are hard to produce. The article mentions the > > object > > achieved "critical mass" -- no, not really, micro-nukes don't > > do that in > > the conventional sense. They need to be imploded to extreme > > density, as > > I understand it, by a perfectly shaped, very powerful trigger > > charge in > > the form of a spherical shell of high explosive which > > compresses the > > fissile material to extreme density, in order to get a chain > > reaction > > going without requiring a critical mass. (Critical mass under > > ordinary > > conditions is something on the order of 30 pounds of uranium, > > so says > > Wikipedia, and it makes for quite a good-sized "bang" -- not > > "micro" at > > all.) > > > > Research to produce really small versions of such devices > > would be a > > major project, and IIRC it has (supposedly) not been done: the > > U.S. > > abandoned research into battlefield nukes (which is what we're > > talking > > about here) quite some time back because it conflicted with > > the tenets > > of MAD. The Bush administration was going to restart said > > research, but > > I don't know if that actually happened; a lot of people found > > the idea > > pretty objectionable, because the existence of effective > > battlefield > > nukes would make it too easy to escalate a conventional war into a > > nuclear one. As long as the first nuclear step is a _big_ > > step it's > > less likely that anybody will take it (or so goes the theory). > > > > As to radiation, it's really unclear how you'd go about > > eliminating the > > radiation burst when the bomb goes off. Like, really, _really_ > > unclear. It's also unclear how you eliminate _all_ fallout, > > which is > > necessary if you are to fool everyone into thinking it wasn't > > a nuclear > > explosive when they examine the site afterwards. I mean, > > what's the > > uranium/plutonium/whatnot turn into that's totally > > non-radioactive? > > Breaks all the way down into iron, maybe? Hmmm... > > > > But really, you said it all, up top: Anyone who starts by > > asserting > > this is a "Zionist plot" is already lost in the weeds and I > > think we can > > disregard the rest of the page, because that initial assertion > > makes no > > sense. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- "Monsieur l'abb=E9, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to ma= ke it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire ------=_Part_9937_12478826.1130019800734 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline but its still not the most effecient use of energy

On 10/22/05, Harry Veeder <eo200@fr= eenet.carleton.ca> wrote:
Ok then a conventional warhead.<= br>Harry=20


leaking pen wrot= e:

it would, because then youd have the shaft acting as a channel.=  but...  have you SEEN the ground around an underground test? &n= bsp;the concussive wave shatters rock miles away.  in space, without a= contraint, and a limit to how far the energy could be dissapated?  a = mile wide asteroid would shatter if it were rocky.  mettalic, not so m= uch, but it would still break up.=20

On 10/20/05, Harry Veeder <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca> wrote:
If it is a really big asteroid I doubt a small warhead would sp= lit it.
I think boring into the surface before detonation would result i= n a more controlled
thrust then a detonation on or near the surface.

Harry



leaking pen wrote:

penetration would be easy.  an object that distant, just e= scape velocity would be enough to punch pretty deep, and with extra fuel, w= e can get missiles going pretty darn fast.  its a matter of keeping th= e bomb intact, and the fact that penetration would shatter it, which would = STILL be bad.  we're talking moving, not blowing up.=20

On 10/20/05, Stephen A. Lawrence <salaw pobox.com> wrote:


Harry Veeder wrote:

> Such technology may be = useful for diverting large asteroids on a
> collisions course with ea= rth.

Unfortunately the "ground-penetrating" bombs are some= what misleadingly=20
named.

They're really just big darts, heavy and pointed at one e= nd, dropped
from a high altitude and carried down by gravity.  They= "penetrate"
because they've got a lot of momentum and a narr= ow point and they just=20
punch a hole in the ground.

In consequence there's no way we cou= ld get one to "penetrate" into an
asteroid in order to split i= t, for instance -- the bombs can't dig or
drill their way in and they d= on't have the kind of propulsion system=20
they'd need to let them push their way in.  You'd need to start ov= er
from scratch to design one that would "penetrate" an uneart= hly body.


> Harry
>
> leaking pen wrote:
>=
>     they ARE still researching battlefield nukes, = and the elimination
>     of fallout is being don= e by the fact that the ones being developed
>    &nbs= p;are ground penetrating bunker busters.  make a nice glass cave=20
>     thats self sealing.
>
>  =    On 10/19/05, *Stephen A. Lawrence* <salaw pobox.com> wrote:=20
>
>
>
>        =  thomas malloy wrote:
>
>      &n= bsp;  > My friend was going on about the Bali bomb having been= a nuke.
>         > Nonse= nse, I replied, if it was, there would be radioactivity. My=20
>         > friend counte= red that this was a clean atom bomb. My reply
>    &nb= sp;    was, this
>      =    > doesn't exist. Send me the URL, which he did, see>         > http://joevialls.net/nuke/bali_micro_nuke.htm . The first
>  = ;       red flag was
>   = ;      > Zionist plot, like the Israelis h= ave nothing better to do
>        =  than blow up
>         = > night clubs in the pacific.=20
>
>         Right, wel= l said.
>
>         Rea= l mico-nukes are hard to produce.  The article mentions the
> &n= bsp;       object
>   &n= bsp;     achieved "critical mass" -- no,= not really, micro-nukes don't=20
>         do that in
>=         the conventional sense. &n= bsp;They need to be imploded to extreme
>     &nb= sp;   density, as
>      &nbs= p;  I understand it, by a perfectly shaped, very powerful trigger=
>         charge in=20
>         the form of a sphe= rical shell of high explosive which
>      &= nbsp;  compresses the
>       = ;  fissile material to extreme density, in order to get a chain>         reaction
> &nb= sp;       going without requiring a crit= ical mass.  (Critical mass under=20
>         ordinary
> &= nbsp;       conditions is something on t= he order of 30 pounds of uranium,
>      &nb= sp;  so says
>        &n= bsp;Wikipedia, and it makes for quite a good-sized "bang" -- not<= br>>         "micro" a= t=20
>         all.)
>
&= gt;         Research to produce rea= lly small versions of such devices
>      &n= bsp;  would be a
>       &nbs= p; major project, and IIRC it has (supposedly) not been done: the
&= gt;          U.S.
>         abandoned rese= arch into battlefield nukes (which is what we're
>    =      talking
>      = ;   about here) quite some time back because it conflicted w= ith
>         the tenets
&= gt;         of MAD.  The Bush = administration was going to restart said=20
>         research, but
&= gt;         I don't know if that ac= tually happened; a lot of people found
>     &nbs= p;   the idea
>       &n= bsp; pretty objectionable, because the existence of effective
> =         battlefield=20
>         nukes would make i= t too easy to escalate a conventional war into a
>    =      nuclear one.  As long as the first nucle= ar step is a _big_
>         = step it's
>         less like= ly that anybody will take it (or so goes the theory).=20
>
>         As to radi= ation, it's really unclear how you'd go about
>    &nb= sp;    eliminating the
>     =     radiation burst when the bomb goes off.  Like,= really, _really_
>         u= nclear.  It's also unclear how you eliminate _all_ fallout,=20
>         which is
> &= nbsp;       necessary if you are to fool= everyone into thinking it wasn't
>      &nb= sp;  a nuclear
>        =  explosive when they examine the site afterwards.  I mean,
>= ;         what's the=20
>         uranium/plutonium/= whatnot turn into that's totally
>      &nbs= p;  non-radioactive?
>       =   Breaks all the way down into iron, maybe?  Hmmm...
>=
>         But really, you sa= id it all, up top:  Anyone who starts by=20
>         asserting
> =         this is a "Zionist plo= t" is already lost in the weeds and I
>     =     think we can
>      =    disregard the rest of the page, because that initial asse= rtion
>         makes no
>  = ;       sense.
>
>  &nb= sp;      >
>     = ;    >
>
>
>
>










--
"Monsieur l'abb=E9= , I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for= you to continue to write"  Voltaire=20 ------=_Part_9937_12478826.1130019800734-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 22 15:48:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9MMla6e009847; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 15:47:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9MMlZK7009823; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 15:47:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 15:47:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 18:45:33 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Say it ain't so In-reply-to: To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_aEer6t9jPiOhJxmGxqe+YQ)" User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64032 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --Boundary_(ID_aEer6t9jPiOhJxmGxqe+YQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I am thinking in terms of short term effectiveness rather than long term efficiency. Harry leaking pen wrote: but its still not the most effecient use of energy On 10/22/05, Harry Veeder wrote: Ok then a conventional warhead. Harry leaking pen wrote: it would, because then youd have the shaft acting as a channel. but... have you SEEN the ground around an underground test? the concussive wave shatters rock miles away. in space, without a contraint, and a limit to how far the energy could be dissapated? a mile wide asteroid would shatter if it were rocky. mettalic, not so much, but it would still break up. On 10/20/05, Harry Veeder wrote: If it is a really big asteroid I doubt a small warhead would split it. I think boring into the surface before detonation would result in a more controlled thrust then a detonation on or near the surface. Harry leaking pen wrote: penetration would be easy. an object that distant, just escape velocity would be enough to punch pretty deep, and with extra fuel, we can get missiles going pretty darn fast. its a matter of keeping the bomb intact, and the fact that penetration would shatter it, which would STILL be bad. we're talking moving, not blowing up. On 10/20/05, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: Harry Veeder wrote: > Such technology may be useful for diverting large asteroids on a > collisions course with earth. Unfortunately the "ground-penetrating" bombs are somewhat misleadingly named. They're really just big darts, heavy and pointed at one end, dropped from a high altitude and carried down by gravity. They "penetrate" because they've got a lot of momentum and a narrow point and they just punch a hole in the ground. In consequence there's no way we could get one to "penetrate" into an asteroid in order to split it, for instance -- the bombs can't dig or drill their way in and they don't have the kind of propulsion system they'd need to let them push their way in. You'd need to start over from scratch to design one that would "penetrate" an unearthly body. > Harry > > leaking pen wrote: > > they ARE still researching battlefield nukes, and the elimination > of fallout is being done by the fact that the ones being developed > are ground penetrating bunker busters. make a nice glass cave > thats self sealing. > > On 10/19/05, *Stephen A. Lawrence* wrote: > > > > thomas malloy wrote: > > > My friend was going on about the Bali bomb having been a nuke. > > Nonsense, I replied, if it was, there would be radioactivity. My > > friend countered that this was a clean atom bomb. My reply > was, this > > doesn't exist. Send me the URL, which he did, see > > http://joevialls.net/nuke/bali_micro_nuke.htm . The first > red flag was > > Zionist plot, like the Israelis have nothing better to do > than blow up > > night clubs in the pacific. > > Right, well said. > > Real mico-nukes are hard to produce. The article mentions the > object > achieved "critical mass" -- no, not really, micro-nukes don't > do that in > the conventional sense. They need to be imploded to extreme > density, as > I understand it, by a perfectly shaped, very powerful trigger > charge in > the form of a spherical shell of high explosive which > compresses the > fissile material to extreme density, in order to get a chain > reaction > going without requiring a critical mass. (Critical mass under > ordinary > conditions is something on the order of 30 pounds of uranium, > so says > Wikipedia, and it makes for quite a good-sized "bang" -- not > "micro" at > all.) > > Research to produce really small versions of such devices > would be a > major project, and IIRC it has (supposedly) not been done: the > U.S. > abandoned research into battlefield nukes (which is what we're > talking > about here) quite some time back because it conflicted with > the tenets > of MAD. The Bush administration was going to restart said > research, but > I don't know if that actually happened; a lot of people found > the idea > pretty objectionable, because the existence of effective > battlefield > nukes would make it too easy to escalate a conventional war into a > nuclear one. As long as the first nuclear step is a _big_ > step it's > less likely that anybody will take it (or so goes the theory). > > As to radiation, it's really unclear how you'd go about > eliminating the > radiation burst when the bomb goes off. Like, really, _really_ > unclear. It's also unclear how you eliminate _all_ fallout, > which is > necessary if you are to fool everyone into thinking it wasn't > a nuclear > explosive when they examine the site afterwards. I mean, > what's the > uranium/plutonium/whatnot turn into that's totally > non-radioactive? > Breaks all the way down into iron, maybe? Hmmm... > > But really, you said it all, up top: Anyone who starts by > asserting > this is a "Zionist plot" is already lost in the weeds and I > think we can > disregard the rest of the page, because that initial assertion > makes no > sense. > > > > > > > > > --Boundary_(ID_aEer6t9jPiOhJxmGxqe+YQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Re: Say it ain't so I am thinking in terms of short term effectiveness rather than long term
efficiency.

Harry

leaking pen wrote:

but its still not the most effecient use of energy

On 10/22/05, Harry Veeder <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca> wrote:
Ok then a conventional warhead.
Harry


leaking pen wrote:

it would, because then youd have the shaft acting as a channel.  but...  have you SEEN the ground around an underground test?  the concussive wave shatters rock miles away.  in space, without a contraint, and a limit to how far the energy could be dissapated?  a mile wide asteroid would shatter if it were rocky.  mettalic, not so much, but it would still break up.

On 10/20/05, Harry Veeder <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca> wrote:
If it is a really big asteroid I doubt a small warhead would split it.
I think boring into the surface before detonation would result in a more controlled
thrust then a detonation on or near the surface.

Harry



leaking pen wrote:

penetration would be easy.  an object that distant, just escape velocity would be enough to punch pretty deep, and with extra fuel, we can get missiles going pretty darn fast.  its a matter of keeping the bomb intact, and the fact that penetration would shatter it, which would STILL be bad.  we're talking moving, not blowing up.

On 10/20/05, Stephen A. Lawrence <salaw pobox.com> wrote:


Harry Veeder wrote:

> Such technology may be useful for diverting large asteroids on a
> collisions course with earth.

Unfortunately the "ground-penetrating" bombs are somewhat misleadingly
named.

They're really just big darts, heavy and pointed at one end, dropped
from a high altitude and carried down by gravity.  They "penetrate"
because they've got a lot of momentum and a narrow point and they just
punch a hole in the ground.

In consequence there's no way we could get one to "penetrate" into an
asteroid in order to split it, for instance -- the bombs can't dig or
drill their way in and they don't have the kind of propulsion system
they'd need to let them push their way in.  You'd need to start over
from scratch to design one that would "penetrate" an unearthly body.


> Harry
>
> leaking pen wrote:
>
>     they ARE still researching battlefield nukes, and the elimination
>     of fallout is being done by the fact that the ones being developed
>     are ground penetrating bunker busters.  make a nice glass cave
>     thats self sealing.
>
>     On 10/19/05, *Stephen A. Lawrence* <salaw pobox.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>         thomas malloy wrote:
>
>         > My friend was going on about the Bali bomb having been a nuke.
>         > Nonsense, I replied, if it was, there would be radioactivity. My
>         > friend countered that this was a clean atom bomb. My reply
>         was, this
>         > doesn't exist. Send me the URL, which he did, see
>         > http://joevialls.net/nuke/bali_micro_nuke.htm . The first
>         red flag was
>         > Zionist plot, like the Israelis have nothing better to do
>         than blow up
>         > night clubs in the pacific.
>
>         Right, well said.
>
>         Real mico-nukes are hard to produce.  The article mentions the
>         object
>         achieved "critical mass" -- no, not really, micro-nukes don't
>         do that in
>         the conventional sense.  They need to be imploded to extreme
>         density, as
>         I understand it, by a perfectly shaped, very powerful trigger
>         charge in
>         the form of a spherical shell of high explosive which
>         compresses the
>         fissile material to extreme density, in order to get a chain
>         reaction
>         going without requiring a critical mass.  (Critical mass under
>         ordinary
>         conditions is something on the order of 30 pounds of uranium,
>         so says
>         Wikipedia, and it makes for quite a good-sized "bang" -- not
>         "micro" at
>         all.)
>
>         Research to produce really small versions of such devices
>         would be a
>         major project, and IIRC it has (supposedly) not been done: the
>         U.S.
>         abandoned research into battlefield nukes (which is what we're
>         talking
>         about here) quite some time back because it conflicted with
>         the tenets
>         of MAD.  The Bush administration was going to restart said
>         research, but
>         I don't know if that actually happened; a lot of people found
>         the idea
>         pretty objectionable, because the existence of effective
>         battlefield
>         nukes would make it too easy to escalate a conventional war into a
>         nuclear one.  As long as the first nuclear step is a _big_
>         step it's
>         less likely that anybody will take it (or so goes the theory).
>
>         As to radiation, it's really unclear how you'd go about
>         eliminating the
>         radiation burst when the bomb goes off.  Like, really, _really_
>         unclear.  It's also unclear how you eliminate _all_ fallout,
>         which is
>         necessary if you are to fool everyone into thinking it wasn't
>         a nuclear
>         explosive when they examine the site afterwards.  I mean,
>         what's the
>         uranium/plutonium/whatnot turn into that's totally
>         non-radioactive?
>         Breaks all the way down into iron, maybe?  Hmmm...
>
>         But really, you said it all, up top:  Anyone who starts by
>         asserting
>         this is a "Zionist plot" is already lost in the weeds and I
>         think we can
>         disregard the rest of the page, because that initial assertion
>         makes no
>         sense.
>
>         >
>         >
>
>
>
>










--Boundary_(ID_aEer6t9jPiOhJxmGxqe+YQ)-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 22 17:13:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9N0D3eK014996; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 17:13:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9N0D1s2014963; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 17:13:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 17:13:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <005701c5d766$0787bf20$76c5163f oemcomputer> From: "Kyle Mcallister" To: References: <20051020232820.21336.qmail web34901.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: The Cheapest Way To Fix The Energy Crisis (and lots of other crises) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 20:09:20 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64033 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > That is a good question. If we had the means to target > races differently, I suggest that the obvious race to > be given the 'full treatment' would be orientals, who > make up a disproportionate number of people. Note to Jed: This doesn't seem like humor to me... Great plan...... > However, it is a topic full of pitfalls, and the best > way might be simply to let the infertility drug fall > gently and equally among everyone, so that orientals > would end up being 1/6 of their present numbers, > whites 1/6, and so on. We'll make sure you and yours are given this "gift" of infertility. > "a smaller" No big difference. Half enough is just as bad and none at all...neither can get the job done. > Why would you think it necessary? You appear to have > reading problems; obviously, and as I stated, those > alive after the culling took hold would live off the > fat of the land, the elderly included. No, I read perfectly fine, thank you. What gives anyone the right to implement such a plan? Myself, I believe if a country implemented such an evil and Nazi-like plan, then there would need to be a a definite population reduction: elimination of those responsible for implementing it. > > Nice name....Goering. > > A sadly childish remark. Unfortunately, seeing your remarks, it seems to fit perfectly. > George Bush has an opportunity, a short-lived one > whose window is quickly closing, to go down in history > as one of mankind's greatest benefactors. > Unfortunately, he will not have the needed courage, > and will end up being remembered as an idiot. Bush has destroyed himself enough....we do not need him to become the American Fuhrer. Better an idiot than a genocidal maniac. > Of course, this is only a noble dream until we have > the 'anti-fertility' drug; I do not know the state of > the art, but suspect it is further along than is > publicly known. Noble dream? You have got to be bloody kidding me. > My guess is that by using this method it is also > *much* easier to target specific races: slanty eyes, > or dark skin, or some obscure gene that marks you out. Make a "master race" so to speak. This is disgusting. The true master race is one where there is both diversity and unity. What you are suggesting is absolute madness. > Nazi, Schmazi: a tired, overworked cliche to pin on > anybody who differs just a little too much from your > opinions about anything. I have no problem with people whose opinions differ from mine. I pin this label on you, because it fits you. What you are saying is almost precisely what the Third Reich had to say, the elimination of the "sub races" and "unfit" for the benefit of all, to create the 1000 year Reich. You speak as though you are Mein Kampf in the flesh. > Something drastic must be done soon, or we will be > living in a termatary, with or without cold fusion. "We need breathing room" might be another way to put that remark. Don't ever take office. We have enough problems with idiots there as it is. We do not need the outright insane and genocidal there. And if anyone, including you, gets in a position to actually get a plan such as this in motion, I pray that they will not live long. My fellow Vortexians, this is the third person who has seriously suggested that something like this be done in as many months. My faith in the human race and its future is shaken. I really hope this turns out to be a cruel sense of humor, but I do think he is serious. Bill, I second Steven Vincent Johnson's remarks; this is too much. --Kyle From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 23 08:13:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9NFCcB4004732; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 08:12:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9NFCWm9004677; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 08:12:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 08:12:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Originating-IP: [4.88.32.85] Mime-Version: 1.0 From: "gesrebspar juno.com" Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 15:09:38 GMT To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Cheapest Way To Fix The Energy Crisis (and lots of other crise s) X-Mailer: Webmail Version 3.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <20051023.081038.20558.37680 webmail52.nyc.untd.com> X-ContentStamp: 3:4:3890684706 X-UNTD-OriginStamp: GUNT6dKCgH8aoKLPKyRSHpXaeLD3/qikrioRXBse3gum6AcigkrAOg== X-UNTD-Peer-Info: 10.141.27.192|webmail52.nyc.untd.com|webmail52.nyc.untd.com|gesrebspar juno.com Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64034 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vortexians- This plan for infertility is stupid and unnessary. Are race for throw away convenice has all ready lowered the sperm production of man. The plastic's we use everyday out gas a memic to the female hormone estrogen. This out gassing continues all its useful life. Thru out the world men are suffering from lower sperm cunts, and more women are becoming homosexual. these two prolems should lower birth rates thruout the world except in the most remote areas. -ges= From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 23 09:15:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9NGEdvI029232; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 09:14:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9NGEAms028980; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 09:14:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 09:14:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=gaCkBBYobWM1zIUKQI+3SrtF+O5GVnygILpMV2mpj/oUqli581GlkS6mQvZ0EVofn8GC0pWpQLbvdy7UE2zKJ8zORSAMsCJUfLThLpvTCXe2wGfS8DS1beOlBgDyCJfBhG6xqmRTj1DETd5H6857JSJWeHvkNMwSglUiyHjCuXw= ; Message-ID: <20051023161342.73690.qmail web81101.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 09:13:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene Subject: Li-ions & LENR To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <0xFdsB.A.uEH.Rb7WDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64035 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The idea was light-heartedly tossed out that the unusual high failure-rate of Lithium-ion batteries might possibley have something to do with LENR. This battery is an example of a well-engineered item in high mass-production. Perhaps 100 million batteries have been produced for many application (maybe far more) so the "normal" kinks or manufacturing bugs shuold have been worked out long ago - yet we have failures, and often the blame is laid on the manufacturer for a bad batch. I'm not so sure that there isn't more to the story than a manufacturing snafu. Ltihium is certainly associated with many OU experiments, though most of them are using Pd and deuterium (heavy water). But there is natural deuterium in any aqueous lithium solution, and other metals in electrodes could be active also - certainly Ni and Pt. I think I will suggest this to EarthTech - home of the "MOAC" or mother of all calorimeters - supposedly the most accuate one around - that they test a number of ltihium batteries from a "bad batch" to see if there is any heat anomaly... Jones BTW there are tons of papers on LENR/CANR having to do with lithium-D-Pd cells in OU heat mode.... and generally Hydrogen is used for the control. That raises one issue. Wouldn't it be something if - all along - the 'control' setup was OU too, and that some of the failure to clearly show OU (vis-a-vis the cotrol) relate to lack of a "real" OU control. IOW both H and D are active, but D is often more active - and this is apart from the 300 PPM of D which is naturally in water. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 23 09:32:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9NGVxO0005233; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 09:32:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9NGVvNT005221; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 09:31:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 09:31:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20051023163130191.2EA832400088 mwinf3102.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20051023163131.0098e588 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 17:31:31 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Li-ions & LENR Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64036 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: That is a very imaginative suggestion Jones. I like it. 8-) FG At 09:13 am 23/10/2005 -0700, you wrote: >The idea was light-heartedly tossed out that the >unusual high failure-rate of Lithium-ion batteries >might possibley have something to do with LENR. > >This battery is an example of a well-engineered item >in high mass-production. Perhaps 100 million batteries >have been produced for many application (maybe far >more) so the "normal" kinks or manufacturing bugs >shuold have been worked out long ago - yet we have >failures, and often the blame is laid on the >manufacturer for a bad batch. I'm not so sure that >there isn't more to the story than a manufacturing >snafu. > >Ltihium is certainly associated with many OU >experiments, though most of them are using Pd and >deuterium (heavy water). But there is natural >deuterium in any aqueous lithium solution, and other >metals in electrodes could be active also - certainly >Ni and Pt. > >I think I will suggest this to EarthTech - home of the >"MOAC" or mother of all calorimeters - supposedly the >most accuate one around - that they test a number of >ltihium batteries from a "bad batch" to see if there >is any heat anomaly... > >Jones > >BTW there are tons of papers on LENR/CANR having to do >with lithium-D-Pd cells in OU heat mode.... and >generally Hydrogen is used for the control. That >raises one issue. > >Wouldn't it be something if - all along - the >'control' setup was OU too, and that some of the >failure to clearly show OU (vis-a-vis the cotrol) >relate to lack of a "real" OU control. IOW both H and >D are active, but D is often more active - and this is >apart from the 300 PPM of D which is naturally in >water. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 23 09:36:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9NGZbX6007113; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 09:35:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9NGZXPP007068; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 09:35:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 09:35:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 12:33:30 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: supercapacitors and lifters In-reply-to: To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64037 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frank's post below got me thinking about lifters again. Lifters are essentially asymmetrical capacitors, but the ones built to date all depend on a high voltage source of 10kV to 100kV. Suppose these supercapacitors could be configured to work as a lifter. However, if capacitance also contributes to the "power" of a lifter, then perhaps with an asymmetrical supercapacitor lift could be achieved with a low voltage source. Harry fgrimer wrote: > Being curious as to the nature of ULTRACAPs referred to > in a recent Jones post on Vortex, I googled and came > across this excerpt, relevant to the idea of a two phase > magnetic/electric Beta-atmosphere. > > ======================================================= > Supercapacitor or electrical double layer capacitor: > extreme high capacitance values up to ten farads but > low voltage. They are based on the huge surface area > of pucks of activated charcoal immersed in electrolyte, > with the voltage of each puck being kept below 1 volt. > Current is carried through the non-metallic but > conductive granular carbon. > > Ultracapacitor or aerogel capacitor. Huge values, up > to thousands of farads. Similar to supercapacitors, > but using carbon aerogel to attain immense electrode > surface area. > ======================================================= From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 23 10:06:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9NH5aRT021255; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 10:05:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9NH5WQR021215; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 10:05:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 10:05:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <435BC2F5.6050201 ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 11:05:57 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Li-ions & LENR References: <20051023161342.73690.qmail web81101.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20051023161342.73690.qmail web81101.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64038 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Actually Jones, light water is no longer used as a control in F-P calorimeter. The idea of using this as a control was based on total ignorance of how the experiment is actually done. If the cell is sensitive to where temperature is measured, light water will give an entirely different behavior because it has a slightly different heat transport rate compared to D2O. People now use calorimeters that are not based on measurement of electrolyte temperature, hence do not suffer from the errors attributed to early work. The calorimeters are calibrated using an internal resistor and/or a dead cathode. Agreement between the two calibrations shows that the calorimeter can be trusted. By the way, I suggest my calorimeters are the most accurate now being used, with an error of ±20 mW over the range of 0-25 watts of applied power. In addition, it takes about 2 minutes to install a new sample. Can you beat that Scott? I will describe the calorimeters at ICCF-12. It is my understanding that normal water contains 6000 ppm of D2O, not 300 ppm. Experiments show that even a small amount of H2O in D2O will kill heat being produced from a F-P cell. Therefore, it is unlikely the small D2O impurity in H2O will have any effect. Regards, Ed Jones Beene wrote: > The idea was light-heartedly tossed out that the > unusual high failure-rate of Lithium-ion batteries > might possibley have something to do with LENR. > > This battery is an example of a well-engineered item > in high mass-production. Perhaps 100 million batteries > have been produced for many application (maybe far > more) so the "normal" kinks or manufacturing bugs > shuold have been worked out long ago - yet we have > failures, and often the blame is laid on the > manufacturer for a bad batch. I'm not so sure that > there isn't more to the story than a manufacturing > snafu. > > Ltihium is certainly associated with many OU > experiments, though most of them are using Pd and > deuterium (heavy water). But there is natural > deuterium in any aqueous lithium solution, and other > metals in electrodes could be active also - certainly > Ni and Pt. > > I think I will suggest this to EarthTech - home of the > "MOAC" or mother of all calorimeters - supposedly the > most accuate one around - that they test a number of > ltihium batteries from a "bad batch" to see if there > is any heat anomaly... > > Jones > > BTW there are tons of papers on LENR/CANR having to do > with lithium-D-Pd cells in OU heat mode.... and > generally Hydrogen is used for the control. That > raises one issue. > > Wouldn't it be something if - all along - the > 'control' setup was OU too, and that some of the > failure to clearly show OU (vis-a-vis the cotrol) > relate to lack of a "real" OU control. IOW both H and > D are active, but D is often more active - and this is > apart from the 300 PPM of D which is naturally in > water. > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 23 10:59:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9NHx9vc010029; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 10:59:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9NHx7Ta010001; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 10:59:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 10:59:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=jwBIKm3+H/TmDPkdnLxEWCzruEj0srXgZ5UaZDu/SFQRzCUH1nGxhEvN0MNS34yBXIlZhbTyc4En9bzPZxz39YUcviA4mYC+iM8jKb5UkwAYYfCqcK0vevqEJd0Eu61PMCsSN1Up1jzvJG5ZLxKA19WoryBr9bhEJneEmsqdT6A= ; Message-ID: <20051023175843.38588.qmail web81104.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 10:58:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: Li-ions & LENR To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <435BC2F5.6050201 ix.netcom.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64039 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Edmund Storms wrote: > Actually Jones, light water is no longer used as a control in F-P > calorimeter. The idea of using this as a control was based on total > ignorance of how the experiment is actually done. Yes. This remark was in reference to earlier work, like Orinani etc. > By the way, I suggest my calorimeters are the most accurate now being used, with an error of ±20 mW over the range of 0-25 watts of applied power. In addition, it takes about 2 minutes to install a new sample. Can you beat that Scott? I will describe the calorimeters at ICCF-12. Well, may I suggest to you Ed - if and when you have a lull in your experimentation, that it would be interesting and possible fruitful to do calorimetry on these batteries. For one thing - if you are sucessful in pinpointing a possible source for these costly failures - that might lead to an alternative funding source - as well as some further recognition that slight OU is possible from "normal" processes. > It is my understanding that normal water contains 6000 ppm of D2O, not 300 ppm. Sorry, I dropped a zero. I believe that there is a range and 6000 would be an upper limit. > Experiments show that even a small amount of H2O in D2O will > kill heat being produced from a F-P cell. Yes but there is also experimentation which shows the exact opposite - a benefit from sequential light water electrolysis following heavy. Mizuno comes to mind - although this is not in the exact F-P confiuration, There are a number of reasons why lithium alone could experience LENR with or without the benefit of D2. I for one would really like to know if the battery situation is proof of this. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 23 11:00:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9NHxik0010238; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 10:59:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9NHxdJf010179; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 10:59:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 10:59:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051023134312.065b80b0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 13:59:03 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Li-ions & LENR In-Reply-To: <435BC2F5.6050201 ix.netcom.com> References: <20051023161342.73690.qmail web81101.mail.yahoo.com> <435BC2F5.6050201 ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64040 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Edmund Storms wrote: >If the cell is sensitive to where temperature is measured, light water >will give an entirely different behavior because it has a slightly >different heat transport rate compared to D2O. However, as far as I know, this will only affect accuracy below 50 milliwatts or so. When there is very large excess heat this factor will have little impact. Also, this will have no impact when the temperature is measured outside the cell, at the cell wall, such as with the calorimeter used by Miles at China Lake. >It is my understanding that normal water contains 6000 ppm of D2O, not 300 >ppm. The heavy water content ordinary light water is usually quoted at 1:6,700 and sometimes as high as 1:5,400, and Wikipedia says it is 1:3200. That's 150, 185, or 313 ppm -- take your pick. I think the first estimate may be for deuterons versus protons in water, ignoring the oxygen. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 23 11:16:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9NIGDkY020090; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 11:16:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9NIGBNI020063; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 11:16:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 11:16:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=DhW4fyIAJmrZXsnyy0jQr0+YZhp2rL2/N61vDx1r7I7k6k2h9f2A5yh59oRfIJLbHPM7szb5bAE0UIIjPMfPwYUmLMj7eyyytDe0UTbTDybku+2XYPgVwn2W/fr4Q+EuzyRYVDsI4SLzzffP3GlOAp46pxSsJtOUJVWDtT3Lk20= ; Message-ID: <20051023181547.26122.qmail web81106.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 11:15:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: Li-ions & LENR To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-L@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20051023134312.065b80b0 pop.mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <4to-dD.A.a5E.rN9WDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64041 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Jed Rothwell wrote: > The heavy water content ordinary light water is usually quoted at 1:6,700 and sometimes as high as 1:5,400, and Wikipedia says it is 1:3200. That's 150, 185, or 313 ppm -- take your pick. >I think the first estimate may be for deuterons versus protons in water, ignoring the oxygen. Semantics: there is actually much lower "heavy water" than there is H-O-D which is not heavy water per se, but has one deuteron instead of the two in heavy water - no? There seems to be some conflicting numbers floating around. The resolution probably involves whether you are comparing deuterons to protons, or the extra molecular weight 18 vs. 19 vs. 20 ? And then there is also "heavy oxygen" to further muck things up .... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 23 11:29:21 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9NISWll029563; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 11:28:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9NISRRe029504; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 11:28:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 11:28:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051023142625.0448cd20 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 14:27:53 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Li-ions & LENR In-Reply-To: <20051023181547.26122.qmail web81106.mail.yahoo.com> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051023134312.065b80b0 pop.mindspring.com> <20051023181547.26122.qmail web81106.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64042 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >Semantics: there is actually much lower "heavy water" >than there is H-O-D which is not heavy water per se . . . Ah yes. The Wikipedia estimate of 1:3200 is for H-O-D, now that you mention it. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_water - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 23 11:41:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9NIfUwo002704; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 11:41:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9NIfSbt002673; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 11:41:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 11:41:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=iBEZX6XK/Sx86RPEFGMNPeWyMdw55P8J2EPvUjWAj5OUdHnpv9uvWNg2o/MPwogjg6RD8wP19ww52eOEyJc9n5+xSPhP3KZTihQf+ixY+fMVxBCj6K2cRpwkEUZY0vcsC6EYj4jtkBAoirJeeQ+Gu47ODqjZON0aCYUUv6njR34= ; Message-ID: <20051023184105.48333.qmail web81103.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 11:41:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene Subject: Cheap hydrogen?? To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64043 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Has anyone heard an update on this ? Palo Alto, March 3, 2005: Bar-Gadda, LLC has invented and developed a working prototype system that can produce hydrogen from water or geothermal steam. This breakthrough technology needs only heat and water to produce hydrogen. Sources of heat include geothermal, solar or even heat from combustion in order to drive the reaction of cracking water to hydrogen. The technology (patent pending) uses a new technique called RET (radiant energy transfer) that uses the unique properties of water in order to efficiently split water to hydrogen and oxygen. **Thermal efficiencies greater than 90% and hydrogen yields greater than 86% have been achieved.** The cost of hydrogen using this technology varies from 35 cents to $1.25 per equivalent gallon of gasoline making it highly competitive to fossil fuel prices. Unlike electrolysis which needs an external form of electrical energy to propel the process, RET is self-contained and relies only on the energy in the steam to crack the water to hydrogen. For example, a typical geyser can produce hydrogen with the energy equivalent of 10,000 gallons of gasoline every hour using this technology. Mr. Bar-Gadda, the President and CEO has stated that "the technology could be on the market in the near term since the infrastructure already exists for its application". A working prototype has been in successful operation for over 6 months. Different types of water have been used to produce hydrogen; from bottled water to carbonated water. Various geothermal waters have also been tested with success. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 23 12:04:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9NJ4MQ4011401; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 12:04:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9NJ4L0x011378; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 12:04:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 12:04:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051023150222.0448d560 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 15:03:58 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Hydrogen fuel for vehicles Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64044 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here is a good summary, covering gas and liquid hydrogen: http://www.aip.org/tip/INPHFA/vol-10/iss-1/p20.html - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 23 12:15:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9NJEYqU015595; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 12:14:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9NJEW0P015580; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 12:14:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 12:14:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051023151139.0448fbc0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 15:14:09 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Hydrogen fuel for vehicles In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20051023150222.0448d560 pop.mindspring.com> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051023150222.0448d560 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64045 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here is a telling quote from the end of this article. It reminds me of cold fusion. This is why we must be VERY careful about accepting new CF and CF-related claims at face value. Nothing can be believed until it has been widely replicated at a high s/n ratio. - Jed QUOTE: Worldwide efforts to verify large hydrogen storage in nanostructured carbon have met with no real success. A few claims have been proven wrong (but nevertheless continue to be cited in the technical literature). Many "demonstrations" of hydrogen sorption rely on measurement of the drop in hydrogen pressure with time in a "leak-free" sample vessel. This technique appears simple but is deceptively vulnerable to error. Cooling of the hydrogen gas after pressurization can easily masquerade as sorption, and hydrogen is notorious for leaking. It cannot be overemphasized: there is no substitute for careful, deliberate research conducted using accurate techniques and with a full appreciation of the possible pitfalls. It remains difficult to dismiss all such claims as spurious, and new, unverified claims continue to appear regularly. Hope persists that carbon nanomaterials might prove viable for hydrogen storage. Nevertheless, the early euphoria has largely given way to a more skeptical view of its prospects. For now, we have no independently verified evidence of technologically significant hydrogen sorption at room temperature. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 23 20:03:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9O32Yht008432; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 20:02:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9O32Wk9008416; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 20:02:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 20:02:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Imagining the FFF(TM) future-fuel-farm Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 13:02:02 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051019151644.0454aaf0 pop.mindspring.com> <010801c5d4ef$0e7b21b0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <017401c5d514$36ed22e0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <4358FFCA.3040803@iinet.net.au> <007101c5d661$7ea76ac0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <4359F436.7020305@iinet.net.au> <000d01c5d71c$1df97130$6401a8c0@NuDell> In-Reply-To: <000d01c5d71c$1df97130$6401a8c0 NuDell> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta02ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.77.227] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Mon, 24 Oct 2005 03:02:02 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j9O32CMW008299 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64046 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Sat, 22 Oct 2005 08:20:20 -0700: Hi, [snip] >nutrients to an ocean which is functioning as soil. And ,as for >the carbohydrates in seaweed not being the optimum makeup for >ethanol, that is probably just a matter of genetically modifying >the fermentation bacteria - which is a technology that we seem to >have mastered pretty well. [snip] ...and when the modified bacterium gets into the ocean, we may well end up with no seaweed anywhere. (Unless it's designed to die in salt water). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 23 20:16:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9O3FpUM015737; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 20:16:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9O3FnHC015715; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 20:15:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 20:15:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: ICEs can't burn h2 Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 13:15:26 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20051022.131532.10269.34536 webmail58.nyc.untd.com> In-Reply-To: <20051022.131532.10269.34536 webmail58.nyc.untd.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.77.227] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Mon, 24 Oct 2005 03:15:26 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j9O3FUcp015562 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64047 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to gesrebspar juno.com's message of Sat, 22 Oct 2005 20:14:48 GMT: Hi, [snip] >Vortexians- We still need heat in the winter in most countries. > I can not see going back to the cold climate of the > original VW beetle. Give me a water cooled . > -ges- If properly designed, there's no reason the exhaust heat from the H2 motor can't be used to heat the interior of the vehicle. In fact, you may be able to just add some external air, and blow it directly into the cabin, both warm, and humidity adjusted. ;) (Assuming the NOx content is low). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 23 20:43:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9O3gjgY026617; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 20:43:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9O3gieV026597; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 20:42:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 20:42:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Li-ions & LENR Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 13:42:21 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <51lol1hcvj42u024i2vqbr76mtk6jdqjje 4ax.com> References: <20051023161342.73690.qmail web81101.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20051023161342.73690.qmail web81101.mail.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.77.227] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Mon, 24 Oct 2005 03:42:21 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j9O3gPqQ026437 Resent-Message-ID: <4NLO6C.A.bfG.zgFXDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64048 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Sun, 23 Oct 2005 09:13:42 -0700 (PDT): Hi, [snip] >Ltihium is certainly associated with many OU >experiments, though most of them are using Pd and >deuterium (heavy water). But there is natural >deuterium in any aqueous lithium solution, and other >metals in electrodes could be active also - certainly >Ni and Pt. [snip] Li has an x-ray absorption peak at 54.75 eV. Presumably this can also be stimulated directly through atom on atom contact, which implies that Li may very well be a good Mills catalyst. Actually the energy required is about 0.35 eV too much, but overpotential at the electrode could easily make up the difference. I'm not sure of the exact chemistry in Li ion batteries, but I suspect that at some point both Li and H are formed concurrently on one electrode. That would frequently put both atoms in direct contact, so that hydrino catalysis can take place. In short we may be seeing explosive hydrino formation under some circumstances, or alternatively, a population of severely shrunken hydrinos may be building up over time, which eventually leads to the reaction H + Li7 -> 2He4 The energetic alphas then create much O++ resulting in run-away hydrino formation and shrinkage. The energy herefrom would cause the battery to explode. BTW In an old edition of Infinite-Energy magazine the cover story dealt with seeding furnaces with small quantities of Lithium. IMO, this is another example of Li catalyzing hydrino reactions. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 23 20:47:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9O3ka1T028472; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 20:46:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9O3kaEJ028450; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 20:46:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 20:46:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 23:44:04 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: ICEs can't burn h2 In-reply-to: To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64049 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > Competition provides the motivation, > Cooperation provides the means. > Who or what decides the ends? Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 24 02:28:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9O9RTex006177; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 02:27:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9O9RRhG006147; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 02:27:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 02:27:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Subject: Cold Fusion EULA From: "Michael T. Huffman" Reply-To: knuke sumosound.de To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-FGWNWedsdUyBXK72B88X" Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 11:27:00 +0200 Message-Id: <1130146020.9611.2.camel knuke> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.0.4-3mdk X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse kundenserver.de login:b76291440de0a671bf17bfec730be47d Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64050 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=-FGWNWedsdUyBXK72B88X Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Moin Vorts! Jones's speculation about Li-ion batteries may have caused this little gem. http://www.tgdaily.com/2005/10/22/rtf_eula/ Third one down. Knuke --=-FGWNWedsdUyBXK72B88X Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBDXKjkbw3Z3EkggUwRAlHDAJ9WwigukZvEA5vBX0JVZwiU11Z64gCdHg2k NZw7gfD/vpGPINMDPPqAspY= =mqJs -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-FGWNWedsdUyBXK72B88X-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 24 08:53:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9OFqXKm005901; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 08:52:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9OFqJJL005726; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 08:52:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 08:52:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Originating-IP: [4.88.39.188] Mime-Version: 1.0 From: "gesrebspar juno.com" Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 15:50:18 GMT To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: ICEs can't burn h2 X-Mailer: Webmail Version 3.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <20051024.085027.760.235009 webmail12.nyc.untd.com> X-ContentStamp: 3:4:3516596338 X-UNTD-OriginStamp: GUNT6dKCgH8aoKLPKyRSHpXaeLD3/qikNE0beeDks03uBmXCRRH6YQ== X-UNTD-Peer-Info: 10.141.27.152|webmail12.nyc.untd.com|webmail12.nyc.untd.com|gesrebspar juno.com Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64051 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vortexians- Maybe what we need is another great race like the one the FEDs did for the self controled car in the mojave. WE need to race different versions of a hydrogen power vehicle from La to NyC with a 10 million dollar price at the end.The vehicles can be built by , companies, Colleges or indivuals. The teams must furnish there own support and hydrogen supply. This is something I am sure Bush might embrace. The results would be interesting. What do you think guys? -ges- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 24 10:21:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9OHKps0026649; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 10:21:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9OHKm18026608; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 10:20:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 10:20:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000c01c5d8c0$728582c0$6701a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> From: "revtec" To: References: <20051020232820.21336.qmail web34901.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <005701c5d766$0787bf20$76c5163f@oemcomputer> Subject: Re: The Cheapest Way To Fix The Energy Crisis (and lots of other crises) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 13:29:08 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64052 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kyle Mcallister" To: Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2005 8:09 PM Subject: Re: The Cheapest Way To Fix The Energy Crisis (and lots of other crises) > > That is a good question. If we had the means to target > > races differently, I suggest that the obvious race to > > be given the 'full treatment' would be orientals, who > > make up a disproportionate number of people. > > Note to Jed: This doesn't seem like humor to me... > > Great plan...... > > > However, it is a topic full of pitfalls, and the best > > way might be simply to let the infertility drug fall > > gently and equally among everyone, so that orientals > > would end up being 1/6 of their present numbers, > > whites 1/6, and so on. > > We'll make sure you and yours are given this "gift" of infertility. > > > "a smaller" > > No big difference. Half enough is just as bad and none at all...neither can > get the job done. > > > Why would you think it necessary? You appear to have > > reading problems; obviously, and as I stated, those > > alive after the culling took hold would live off the > > fat of the land, the elderly included. > > No, I read perfectly fine, thank you. What gives anyone the right to > implement such a plan? Myself, I believe if a country implemented such an > evil and Nazi-like plan, then there would need to be a a definite population > reduction: elimination of those responsible for implementing it. > > > > Nice name....Goering. > > > > A sadly childish remark. > > Unfortunately, seeing your remarks, it seems to fit perfectly. > > > George Bush has an opportunity, a short-lived one > > whose window is quickly closing, to go down in history > > as one of mankind's greatest benefactors. > > Unfortunately, he will not have the needed courage, > > and will end up being remembered as an idiot. > > Bush has destroyed himself enough....we do not need him to become the > American Fuhrer. Better an idiot than a genocidal maniac. > > > Of course, this is only a noble dream until we have > > the 'anti-fertility' drug; I do not know the state of > > the art, but suspect it is further along than is > > publicly known. > > Noble dream? You have got to be bloody kidding me. > > > My guess is that by using this method it is also > > *much* easier to target specific races: slanty eyes, > > or dark skin, or some obscure gene that marks you out. > > Make a "master race" so to speak. This is disgusting. The true master race > is one where there is both diversity and unity. What you are suggesting is > absolute madness. > > > Nazi, Schmazi: a tired, overworked cliche to pin on > > anybody who differs just a little too much from your > > opinions about anything. > > I have no problem with people whose opinions differ from mine. I pin this > label on you, because it fits you. What you are saying is almost precisely > what the Third Reich had to say, the elimination of the "sub races" and > "unfit" for the benefit of all, to create the 1000 year Reich. You speak as > though you are Mein Kampf in the flesh. > > > Something drastic must be done soon, or we will be > > living in a termatary, with or without cold fusion. > > "We need breathing room" might be another way to put that remark. Don't ever > take office. We have enough problems with idiots there as it is. We do not > need the outright insane and genocidal there. And if anyone, including you, > gets in a position to actually get a plan such as this in motion, I pray > that they will not live long. > > My fellow Vortexians, this is the third person who has seriously suggested > that something like this be done in as many months. My faith in the human > race and its future is shaken. I really hope this turns out to be a cruel > sense of humor, but I do think he is serious. Bill, I second Steven Vincent > Johnson's remarks; this is too much. > > --Kyle > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 24 11:15:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9OIDg59031593; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 11:13:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9OIDXuk031513; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 11:13:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 11:13:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001e01c5d8c7$ca25e5e0$6701a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> From: "revtec" To: Subject: Re: The Cheapest Way To Fix The Energy Crisis (and lots of other Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 14:21:41 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001B_01C5D8A6.412F0B20" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Resent-Message-ID: <-s0Z3D.A.DsH.HRSXDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64053 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C5D8A6.412F0B20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Kyle Mcallister" To: Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2005 8:09 PM Subject: Re: The Cheapest Way To Fix The Energy Crisis (and lots of = other crises) > My faith in the human race and its future is shaken. Kyle, you seem surprised that there are really guys like Goering out = there. There has to be a bunch of them because their reasoning is based on evolutionary beliefs and we all know how pervasive that is. Here is another really unsettling consideration. If evolution is true, = then one race would naturally be superior to the others. For the races to be equal would be totally unnatural. I think God made us equal, but evolution definitely would not. = Evolution was one of the foundations of Hitler's Nazi Germany. It justified their actions by allowing them to declare Jewish people an inferior race. The worst horrors the world has ever seen were based on evolutionary = beliefs! It's "survival of the fittest" so Darwin said: dog eat dog, the law of = the jungle, looking out for number one! So, what group of people are the fittest? Who is hanging on to the = highest rung of the evolutionary ladder? Is it the biggest? The strongest? The smartest? The whitest? Or, will it will end up being the group with = the most power due to accrued wealth? Are we the products of eons of selfish competition, or are we sons of = God? Where does morality such as compassion and self sacrifice come from? = The act of reducing ones own chance of survival to increase the chances for = one less fortunate is a stark violation of evolutionary principles. It is illogical. If evolution produces morality than it must be seen as a = harmful mutation. We have all encountered or at least heard of people who seem to have no morality. Everything they do is filtered thru "what will this get for = me". Some people who appear to do good unselfishly are merely angling for a greater good for themselves in the future. Beyond that there are people = who do good with no chance of compensation. But, some of these do it simply because of an addiction to the "warm fuzzies". True compassion and self sacrifice may, unfortunately, be quite a rare thing. Nevertheless, we see and hear of acts of compassion and self sacrifice = on a regular basis that stop us in our tracks, bring tears to our eyes, = reaffirm our faith in humanity, and make us say to ourselves, "I hope that I am capable of that". Faith in God draws us upward, but belief in evolution is a snare that = will drag us downward to destruction. Jeff ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C5D8A6.412F0B20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
----- Original=20 Message -----
From: "Kyle Mcallister" <weir fdscience.org>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 22, = 2005 8:09=20 PM
Subject: Re: The Cheapest Way To Fix The Energy Crisis (and lots = of=20 other
crises)


> My faith in the human race and its = future is=20 shaken.

Kyle, you seem surprised that there are really guys like = Goering=20 out there.
There has to be a bunch of them because their reasoning is = based=20 on
evolutionary beliefs and we all know how pervasive that = is.

Here is=20 another really unsettling consideration.  If evolution is true, = then
one=20 race would naturally be superior to the others.  For the races to=20 be
equal would be totally unnatural.

I think God made us = equal, but=20 evolution definitely would not.  Evolution
was one of the = foundations of=20 Hitler's Nazi Germany.  It justified their
actions by allowing = them to=20 declare Jewish people an inferior race.  The
worst horrors the = world has=20 ever seen were based on evolutionary beliefs!

It's "survival of = the=20 fittest" so Darwin said: dog eat dog, the law of the
jungle, looking = out for=20 number one!

So, what group of people are the fittest?  Who = is=20 hanging on to the highest
rung of the evolutionary ladder?  Is = it the=20 biggest? The strongest? The
smartest?  The whitest?  Or, = will it=20 will end up being the group with the
most power due to accrued=20 wealth?

Are we the products of eons of selfish competition, or = are we=20 sons of God?

Where does morality such as compassion and self = sacrifice=20 come from?  The
act of reducing ones own chance of survival to = increase=20 the chances for one
less fortunate is a stark violation of = evolutionary=20 principles. It is
illogical.  If evolution produces morality = than it=20 must be seen as a harmful
mutation.

We have all encountered or = at=20 least heard of people who seem to have no
morality.  Everything = they do=20 is filtered thru "what will this get for me".
Some people who appear = to do=20 good unselfishly are merely angling for a
greater good for themselves = in the=20 future.  Beyond that there are people who
do good with no chance = of=20 compensation.  But, some of these do it simply
because of an = addiction=20 to the "warm fuzzies".  True compassion and self
sacrifice may,=20 unfortunately, be quite a rare thing.

Nevertheless, we see and = hear of=20 acts of compassion and self sacrifice on a
regular basis that stop us = in our=20 tracks,  bring tears to our eyes, reaffirm
our faith in = humanity, and=20 make us say to ourselves, "I hope that I am
capable of = that".

Faith in=20 God draws us upward, but belief in evolution is a snare that = will
drag us=20 downward to = destruction.

Jeff
------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C5D8A6.412F0B20-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 24 11:50:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9OInSVU018399; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 11:49:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9OInN3R018336; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 11:49:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 11:49:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <48vift$1dq5lsf mxip07a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.97,245,1125892800"; d="scan'208"; a="1537398671:sNHT16642622" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: OrionWorks Organization: OrionWorks To: CC: Subject: Re: The Cheapest Way To Fix The Energy Crisis (and lots of other Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 13:48:50 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64054 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: revtec sez: ... > We have all encountered or at least heard of people who > seem to have no morality. Everything they do is filtered > thru "what will this get for me". Some people who appear to > do good unselfishly are merely angling for a greater good > for themselves in the future. Beyond that there are people > who do good with no chance of compensation. But, some of > these do it simply because of an addiction to the > "warm fuzzies". True compassion and self sacrifice may, > unfortunately, be quite a rare thing. > > Nevertheless, we see and hear of acts of compassion and self > sacrifice on a regular basis that stop us in our tracks, > bring tears to our eyes, reaffirm our faith in humanity, > and make us say to ourselves, "I hope that I am capable of > that". As to I. I suspect most of us fit somewhere in between the extreems of both ends of that statistical bell shaped curve of human action. ;-) > Faith in God draws us upward, but belief in evolution > is a snare that will drag us downward to destruction. > > Jeff Why must faith in God and belief in the theories of Evolution be reduced to an either/or proposition? You make it sound as if to believe in Evolution is to believe in devil's work. The distillation of perceptions into such a black & white sceneario reminds me of when Bush, in the aftermath of 9/11, warned the world that either "you" are with us or "you" are with the terrorists. I don't think it was the terrorists who cringed when they heard Bush's warning. There are, in my view, many forms of life that appear to have through the laws of evolution cultivated the traits of cooperation, self-sacrifice, where the needs of the many come first over the needs of the one. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 24 12:00:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9OIxPcV023194; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 11:59:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9OIxMCT023171; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 11:59:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 11:59:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=MpCGcE4yPgb5CgRs4PRIGA/v6yait1URu1cdrONggNi4EVl5praAiDqoxr7dZ7Es; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220051012417518740 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Ellingham Diagrams Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 12:51:08 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940d46f7ffd7915e3f0a2a004874d52282f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64055 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII For the adventurous who want to split water to H2 without Coal or CH4. C + H2O + Heat ----> CO + H2 CH4 + H2O + Heat <----> CO + 3 H2 C+ CO2 + Heat ----> 2 CO 2 CO + 2 H2O ----> 2 CO2 + 2 H2 CO2 + CH4 ----> 2 CO + 2 H2 http://www.chem.mtu.edu/skkawatr/Ellingham.pdf The diagrams can be applied to CH4 also. Fe & other metals could also be used. FJS ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

For the adventurous who want to split water to H2
without Coal or CH4. 
C + H2O + Heat ----> CO + H2
 
CH4 + H2O + Heat <----> CO + 3 H2
 
C+ CO2 + Heat ---->   2 CO
 
2 CO + 2 H2O ----> 2 CO2 + 2 H2
 
CO2 + CH4 ---->  2 CO +  2 H2
 
 
The diagrams can be applied to CH4 also.
 
Fe & other metals could also be used.
 
FJS
 
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 24 12:06:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9OJ5NrJ026813; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 12:05:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9OJ5GrG026736; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 12:05:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 12:05:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00c401c5d8cd$ca2031d0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: Plug-and-play Prius Problems Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 12:04:41 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00C1_01C5D893.1D5D40D0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64056 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00C1_01C5D893.1D5D40D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This well-thought-out site describes the growing pains of becoming fully = "plug-compatible" and the various possible configurations and the = warning to avoid the Prius Hacks. As many suspected, even though the Prius was a huge advance, it is not = the optimum situation for either cost, performance or efficiency. And = things may have gotten worse rather than better because of the = underlying IP situation. The Prius just happened to fit into a = time-niche, and the market is now fully open for a better configuration. http://drivingthefuture.com/hybrids.htm Many experts say that the ultimate vehicle until the "one good battery" = comes along, is the "strong PHEV (serial hybrid)," because it can serve = all missions and all requirements seamlessly to the driver, except for = not being completely ZEV ( i.e the true ZEV has no ICE at all for = backup). The electric motor is the only traction power for the strong PHEV serial = hybrid. That's the key idea, eliminating layers of complexity. Most = Prius hybrid owners did not realize how slow the car is in "stealth = mode" on the interstate, even hacked. That cannot change with the more = batteries. The electric motor is simply too weak. With the full-serial config, electricity is fed to the much stronger = electric motor from a battery system which is capable of running the car = for a substantial period of time, and at interstate speeds of double the = present Prius. The battery can be charged by an ICE engine-generator = (genset) , which can also go direct to the motor. Others might say that the ZEV requirement is the "gold standard" and = makes avoiding the serial configuration worthwhile, if it can be done at = all - or at least making the ICE only an add-on. For example, you could = fit the optional engine-generator into a dock (or trailer) on the ZEV = when you need to go long distances, otherwise, use the extra space a = cargo area.=20 The problem as always with going full ZEV is poor battery choices. The hacked-Prius is generally NOT ACCEPTABLE. It is can be a = Frankenstein car (the plug-capable hacked Prius), which supposedly = cannot drive over the 43 mph in stealth (battery only) mode, even on the = highway (unless its downhill) and that slow speed is illegal in some = places - and further, with very risky and pricey battery options which = void the warranty, and put the driver at risk - this begs for a redesign = to serial config. It would be so much easier to make the Prius truly = plug-capable if it were designed for that serial configuration.=20 Here is the untold story which is why the Toyota is not there yet. In = July 2004 Toyota, Matsushita Electric and Panasonic agreed to a $30M = settlement payment in a patent-infringement suit involving the nickel = metal hydride batteries used in the Prius. To avoid continuing payments = they must eventually switch to a non-infringing design. Under the deal, Energy Conversion and its subsidiary, Ovonic Battery Co. = Inc., will receive a $10-million fee from Matsushita Electric Industrial = Co., Panasonic EV Energy Co., and Toyota Motor Corp. In addition, = Cobasys LLC, a company co-owned by Energy Conversion and ChevronTexaco = Technology Ventures LLC, will receive $20 million, according to = documents filed recently with the U.S. Securities and Exchange = Commission.=20 Toyota will also, in the newer models most likely go to a lesser = efficiency battery than before, rather than pay the exorbitant = royalties. The focus of this settlement relates only to base patents for = the nickel metal hydride batteries.=20 One might have suspected that big-oil - specifically ChevronTexaco = Technology Ventures LLC is the real culprit trying to limit full = plug-and-play. Jones ------=_NextPart_000_00C1_01C5D893.1D5D40D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This = well-thought-out site=20 describes the growing pains of becoming fully "plug-compatible" and the = various=20 possible configurations and the warning to avoid the Prius = Hacks.
 
As many suspected, even though the = Prius was a=20 huge advance, it is not the optimum situation for either cost, = performance or=20 efficiency. And things may have gotten worse rather than better because = of the=20 underlying IP situation. The Prius just happened to fit into a = time-niche, and=20 the market is now fully open for a better configuration.
 
 
Many experts say that the ultimate = vehicle until=20 the "one good battery" comes along, is the "strong PHEV (serial = hybrid),"=20 because it can serve all missions and all requirements seamlessly to the = driver,=20 except for not being completely ZEV ( i.e the true ZEV has no ICE = at all=20 for backup).
 
The electric motor = is the only=20 traction power for the strong PHEV serial hybrid. That's the key idea,=20 eliminating layers of complexity. Most Prius hybrid owners did not = realize how=20 slow the car is in "stealth mode" on the interstate, even hacked. That = cannot=20 change with the more batteries. The electric motor is simply too=20 weak.
 
With the full-serial config,=20 electricity is fed to the much stronger electric motor from a = battery=20 system which is capable of running the car for a substantial period of = time, and=20 at interstate speeds of double the present Prius. The battery can=20 be charged by an ICE engine-generator (genset) , which can also go = direct=20 to the motor.

Others might say that the ZEV = requirement is=20 the "gold standard" and makes avoiding the serial configuration = worthwhile, if=20 it can be done at all - or at least making the ICE only an add-on. For = example,=20 you could fit the optional engine-generator into a dock (or trailer) on = the ZEV=20 when you need to go long distances, otherwise, use the extra = space a=20 cargo area.
 
The problem as always with going full = ZEV is poor=20 battery choices.

The = hacked-Prius is=20 generally NOT ACCEPTABLE. It is can be a Frankenstein car = (the=20 plug-capable hacked Prius), which supposedly cannot drive over the 43 = mph in=20 stealth (battery only) mode, even on the highway (unless its downhill) = and that=20 slow speed is illegal in some places - and further, with very risky = and=20 pricey battery options which void the warranty, and put the driver at = risk -=20 this begs for a redesign to serial config. It would be so much = easier to=20 make the Prius truly plug-capable if it were designed for that serial=20 configuration. 
 
Here is the untold story which is why = the Toyota is=20 not there yet. In July 2004 =  Toyota,=20 Matsushita Electric and Panasonic agreed to a $30M settlement payment in = a=20 patent-infringement suit involving the nickel metal hydride batteries = used in=20 the Prius. To avoid continuing payments they must eventually switch to a = non-infringing design.

Under the deal, Energy Conversion = and its=20 subsidiary, Ovonic Battery Co. Inc., will receive a $10-million fee from = Matsushita Electric Industrial Co., Panasonic EV Energy Co., and Toyota = Motor=20 Corp.  In addition, Cobasys LLC, a company co-owned by Energy = Conversion=20 and ChevronTexaco Technology Ventures LLC, will receive $20 million, = according=20 to documents filed recently with the U.S. Securities and Exchange = Commission.=20
 
Toyota will also, in the newer models = most=20 likely go to a lesser efficiency battery than before, rather than = pay the=20 exorbitant royalties. The focus of = this=20 settlement relates only to base patents for the nickel metal hydride = batteries.=20
 
One might have suspected that big-oil - = specifically ChevronTexaco Technology Ventures LLC is the real culprit = trying to=20 limit full plug-and-play.
 
Jones
 
------=_NextPart_000_00C1_01C5D893.1D5D40D0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 24 12:57:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9OJuXPW024795; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 12:56:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9OJuTkW024758; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 12:56:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 12:56:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051024154409.04663af0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 15:55:56 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Plug-and-play Prius Problems In-Reply-To: <00c401c5d8cd$ca2031d0$6401a8c0 NuDell> References: <00c401c5d8cd$ca2031d0$6401a8c0 NuDell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64057 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene writes: >As many suspected, even though the Prius was a huge advance, it is not the >optimum situation for either cost, performance or efficiency. No design is ever "the" optimum. There are always trade-offs and present limitations. The Prius was designed in the mid-1990s and it is slightly obsolete now, but that is unavoidable. With a rapidly changing technology, all products are obsolescent the day they are introduced. Quoting the document at drivingthefuture.com (I think): >The electric motor is the only traction power for the strong PHEV serial >hybrid. That's the key idea, eliminating layers of complexity. This does eliminate layers of complexity, but it is less energy efficient. The complex method of driving the vehicle directly with the ICE at high speeds is more efficient. This would also be true with plug-in version when you drive far beyond the range of the batteries. >The hacked-Prius is generally NOT ACCEPTABLE. It is can be a Frankenstein >car (the plug-capable hacked Prius), which supposedly cannot drive over >the 43 mph in stealth (battery only) mode, even on the highway . . . That is an early, experimental model of a plug-in Prius. The add-on kits that are supposed to be available next year will not have this problem, although the car will not be able to go above 43 mph on the electric motor alone. Frankly, I see no point to going that fast without the ICE. The ICE is more efficient than the electric motor at that speed. It will never be a zero-emissions, no-gasoline vehicle. It was not designed to be one. The rest of this web page is a good discussion of weak versus strong hybrid differences. "Fake hybrid" is a good description of the "mild hybrid" design. It is only a little better than nothing. Still, even an improvement of 1 mpg is welcome. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 24 13:00:42 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9OK0907027174; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 13:00:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9OJxE3V026515; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 12:59:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 12:59:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] X-Originating-Email: [caliostro1795 hotmail.com] X-Sender: caliostro1795 hotmail.com In-Reply-To: <00c401c5d8cd$ca2031d0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Alex Caliostro" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Plug-and-play Prius Problems Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 13:58:40 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Oct 2005 19:58:40.0977 (UTC) FILETIME=[54A6AC10:01C5D8D5] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64058 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >From: "Jones Beene" >One might have suspected that big-oil - specifically ChevronTexaco >Technology Ventures LLC is the real culprit trying to limit full >plug-and-play. Yes, they hold the "secret of nimh" as I pointed out to the consternation of others on this list. http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l%40eskimo.com/msg08515.html While Toyota caved and allowed lessees of the EV RAV4 to acquire, they are having trouble getting replacement batteries. But G-Wiz, if 40 mph is fast enough for you, you can get free leather until the end of the month: http://www.goingreen.co.uk/index.html?PageID=G-WizDepth _____ -alex _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 24 13:28:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9OKS65F010147; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 13:28:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9OKS4OG010128; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 13:28:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 13:28:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00e201c5d8d9$6196e8f0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <00c401c5d8cd$ca2031d0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051024154409.04663af0@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Plug-and-play Prius Problems Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 13:27:39 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <33OGv.A.GeC.TPUXDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64059 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed, > Frankly, I see no point to going that fast without the ICE. The > ICE is more efficient than the electric motor at that speed. Actually no, it is far less expensive - perhaps half the cost - to go with a larger electric motor and batteries recharged at night-time grid rates 6-7 cents per kwh than to use gasoline at $3.00+ gallon - which works out to 18 cents per kilowatt hour equivalent for a vehicle getting 45 miles per gallon. For cross-comparison, you must deduct the inefficiency of the batteries 70% (some are better) and the electric motor 90% (some are better) but all-and-all it is half the cost to use off-peak grid power than gasoline. Matter of fact - didn't you supply those figures earlier? I believe this is the site: http://pdftohtml.logicx.net/pdf2html.php?url=http://avt.inel.gov/pdf/fsev/costs.pdf Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 24 13:56:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9OKuE6I028264; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 13:56:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9OKuANH028225; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 13:56:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 13:56:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051024163937.05650870 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 16:55:38 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Plug-and-play Prius Problems In-Reply-To: <00e201c5d8d9$6196e8f0$6401a8c0 NuDell> References: <00c401c5d8cd$ca2031d0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051024154409.04663af0 pop.mindspring.com> <00e201c5d8d9$6196e8f0$6401a8c0 NuDell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64060 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >>Frankly, I see no point to going that fast without the ICE. The ICE is >>more efficient than the electric motor at that speed. > >Actually no, it is far less expensive - perhaps half the cost - to go with >a larger electric motor and batteries recharged at night-time grid rates >6-7 cents per kwh than to use gasoline at $3.00+ gallon . . . The cost probably is higher, because petroleum is more expensive than coal or natural gas per MJ. I meant the fuel efficiency, or carbon emission per passenger mile. At high speeds, ICE efficiency is as good as the path for fossil fuel generator => battery => vehicle propulsion. Electricity from nuclear power or wind turbines is another matter. There is no doubt that if we had superb batteries right now, with a 300 to 600 mile range, a pure electric vehicle would be the most efficient and least polluting overall. However, since we do not, and we have to make hybrids that use some gasoline anyway, they might as well use the ICE directly at high speeds. The cars have to have a heavy-duty powerful ICE no matter what; they might as will use it at peak output from time to time to prolong battery power. High speeds and long-distance will both quickly drain the limited battery reserves of a plug-in hybrid, so you might as well resort to using the ICE early on. (This is similar to the proposal Beene made the other day when he suggested that you would start the hydrogen genset the moment you left home if you intended to make a long trip. You would do this because you know of the capacity of the batteries is going to be exceeded anyway, so you might as well keep the batteries fully charged.) A typical urban driver with a plug-in hybrid will use little gasoline over the course of a year even if the gasoline motor clicks on at 40 mph and above before the battery is exhausted. A suburban driver commuting long distances over high-speed roads will have to wait for better batteries and a different hybrid design, or a pure electric vehicle optimized for high speeds. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 24 14:43:21 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9OLgYsT023007; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 14:42:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9OLgWo3022974; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 14:42:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 14:42:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00f001c5d8e3$c2ec5090$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <00c401c5d8cd$ca2031d0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051024154409.04663af0@pop.mindspring.com> <00e201c5d8d9$6196e8f0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051024163937.05650870@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Plug-and-play Prius Problems Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 14:41:58 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64061 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > The cost probably is higher, because petroleum is more expensive > than coal or natural gas per MJ. I meant the fuel efficiency, or > carbon emission per passenger mile. Carbon emission can be much lower - using more batteries and a genset and NO large ICE. Wind, hydro and nuclear can do this. So that argument for the large ICE falls flat on its face in the comparative picture. > At high speeds, ICE efficiency is as good as the path for fossil > fuel generator => battery => vehicle propulsion. The consummer is only interested in *cost,* and he can save half his fuel-cost with the *strong serial* design, as opposed to the present Prius with its big ICE on every occasion when he needs to go on the freeway - which for most commuters is twice per day. The ecologist is only interested in carbon - and the ICE is a net looser there too. There is really no need for a large ICE under any possible furutre scenario, even without a major battery advance. > There is no doubt that if we had superb batteries right now, > with a 300 to 600 mile range, a pure electric vehicle would be > the most efficient and least polluting overall. However, since > we do not, and we have to make hybrids that use some gasoline > anyway, they might as well use the ICE directly at high speeds. Illogical and incorrect. Batteries need only provide the stronger electric motor with about 60 mile range, but the larger electric motor must be freeway usable - so this is more batteries but and then a tiny Wankel genset can boost that range enormously - up to the 600 mile level on those occasions when it is required. The Prius is carrying around 500 pounds of superfluous motor/transmission/radiator. By comparison, when shifting 300 pounds of that dead weight to more batteries, and then adding a bigger serial electric motor and an 80 pound Wankel genset - wow this will do a better and cheaper overall job with no added weight gain. Hacking the Prius, even if Toyota does it, adds a lot of weight and still does not get you to freeway-ready!! > The cars have to have a heavy-duty powerful ICE no matter what. NO WAY ! You seem to be missing the whole point. > they might as will use it at peak output from time to time to > prolong battery power. High speeds and long-distance will both > quickly drain the limited battery reserves of a plug-in hybrid, > so you might as well resort to using the ICE early on. NO WAY ! You seem to be missing the whole point. > Beene made the other day when he suggested that you would start > the hydrogen genset the moment you left home if you intended to > make a long trip. Yes fine, but that is for the occassional long trip - a few times a year - gasoline or hydrogen or ethanol - it doesn't matter. That might end up being less efficient for that small fraction of that usage time - but we are trying to find a solution that covers 80-90% of actual mileage more efficiently. When you look at normal usage patterns, getting rid of the large ICE in favor of batteries, a freeway-viable electric motor, and a small genset wins all the logical arguments hands down. The Wankel is only 80 pounds (maybe 120 with the larger alternator) and can provide 50 kwh. This is much less than the Prius engine - but it will allow the batteries to go the full 600 miles/day if you start the genset up at the outset of a long trip. If these long trips are only a few weeks out of a year, then why lug around 380 extra pounds for the slight amount of extra power you only need during this short period ? The large ICE is brain-dead in an advanced hybrid when compared to the alternative! > A typical urban driver with a plug-in hybrid will use little > gasoline over the course of a year even if the gasoline motor > clicks on at 40 mph and above before the battery is exhausted. Yes, but this same driver will need to get on the freeway daily, more than likely several times and does not want to piddle along on the freeway at 40 - especially when that is very unsafe. Big-rigs can easily come up behind too fast to slow down. It makes much more sense to use battery power on the freeway too - instead of gasoline, and to ditch the big enginem and add a lightweight genset. You are better off in every conceivable way. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 24 15:06:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9OM5erU002228; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 15:05:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9OM5cQL002199; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 15:05:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 15:05:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051024172605.05656d60 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 18:04:47 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Plug-and-play Prius Problems In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20051024163937.05650870 pop.mindspring.com> References: <00c401c5d8cd$ca2031d0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051024154409.04663af0 pop.mindspring.com> <00e201c5d8d9$6196e8f0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051024163937.05650870 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64062 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: >The cars have to have a heavy-duty powerful ICE no matter what; they might >as will use it at peak output from time to time to prolong battery power. >High speeds and long-distance will both quickly drain the limited battery >reserves of a plug-in hybrid, so you might as well resort to using the ICE >early on. This also reduces the weight of the add-on battery pack (the plug-in portion), which probably increases efficiency under some circumstances. There is probably a complex trade-off between battery pack size, the maximum speed cut off before engaging the ICE, the range you can travel with the plug-in battery pack, and so on. If you could fine tune the proportions for different drivers under different circumstances, you would achieve a higher maximum range, or a lower cost per mile, or less pollution (lower carbon emissions per passenger mile). For example, if you could pull out the ICE and substitute a lighter, less powerful model for one driver and not another, that might be optimum, but it is not practical. Toyota has to select a design that meets a broad range of user needs, which means compromises. The Prius is designed to be used in Japan, Southeast Asia and other countries with different driving patterns, speed limits, average commute distances and other factors compared to the U.S. It is a one-size-fits-all solution. The biggest advantage the Prius has over other designs is that it exists. You can buy one. The Prius with the add-on battery pack is something of a kludge or compromise. It is a method of bringing a 1995 design up to the changed requirements and perceptions of the 2005 marketplace. Obviously, if you were starting over from scratch with another billion dollars of R&D money, and you were free to choose any battery you like without regard to patents or competition, you might settle on a different set of requirements. The Prius+, with the add-on battery pack will give the average driver well over 100 mpg; probably 120 mpg, I guess. That is the "average" driver in the city, the suburbs, on a short commute or a reasonably long commute. In other words, if nearly everyone drives a car like this in 8 years, the US consumption of automobile gasoline will fall by a factor of five. (Overall consumption of petroleum would not fall that much, because long-distance trucks, railroads, aircraft and other machines would still use a lot of petroleum.) If everyone in the world drives one, OPEC will be bankrupt, and the main source of global warming will be reduced by a huge factor. That would be a fantastic outcome. We could start in for many it today, this moment, without waiting for another five or 10 year billion-dollar R&D project. (We could implement it now by buying regular hybrid vehicles and upgrading them with kits in a few years.) Ludwik Kowalski's e-mail "sig" line is: "Let the perfect not be the enemy of the good." That applies perfectly to the situation. We should not wait for the ideal, perfectly up-to-date hybrid design to emerge. If I were in charge of the government, I would institute a crash program to apply this technology as is to all American-made vehicles starting to years from now. This crash program would resemble the decision made in 1940 to manufacture huge numbers of DC-3 aircraft for the war effort. The DC-3 came out in 1935. By 1940 it was somewhat obsolescent, because transport aircraft designs were evolving rapidly at that time, just as hybrid automobile designs are evolving today. After some debate, the government decided that to meet the emergency, they would "freeze" the design and make large numbers of a somewhat less-than-optimum machine. That was the right choice to make for a transport aircraft. It would have been a disastrous choice for a fighter or bomber. A transport aircraft did not have to go head-to-head in combat with German or Japanese models, so it would not be in competitive race to the death. Even though the Prius+ (upcoming plug-in model) is obsolescent, it has many advantages similar to the DC3: drivers have experience using it already (just as pilots knew how to fly the DC3 in 1940); it works well with the existing infrastructure of gasoline stations; it fits a wide variety of driving patterns; it can be developed for very little money; the design has been used extensively in the real world and the bugs have been shaken out of it. (The Prius is a second-generation design, with significant improvements starting in the 2004 model.) By the end of World War II, the US did introduce larger four engine transports, and they were in widespread use by the time of the Berlin airlift. (However, DC3s were also used.) If we start manufacturing large numbers of Prius-style vehicles now, and Prius+ plug in models next year, in five or 10 years we can introduce a revamped updated design. It might even be designed by Americans instead of Japanese. Wouldn't that be amazing? Imagine Americans actually making their own advanced technology for once! (Okay, let's stop dreaming here . . .) There is no law that says we have to keep manufacturing these things for years and years, the way the Model T and the original Volkswagen beetle were manufactured. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 24 15:34:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9OMYFrm015933; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 15:34:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9OMYCPN015902; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 15:34:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 15:34:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <010a01c5d8ea$ff76a680$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <00c401c5d8cd$ca2031d0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051024154409.04663af0@pop.mindspring.com> <00e201c5d8d9$6196e8f0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051024163937.05650870@pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20051024172605.05656d60@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Plug-and-play Prius Problems Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 15:33:46 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64063 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed, > The biggest advantage the Prius has over other designs is that > it exists. You can buy one. Yes. I hope they sell all they can make. No one is suggesting that they cease making them because the design is less than adequate. However to add a larger battery pack to the present design if silly if you can't use it on the freeway. > The Prius with the add-on battery pack is something of a kludge > or compromise. It is worse than that. If it still won't be useful for the freeway - why do it at all? How many long trips does anyone take that do not involve the freeway? Even if you are too rural for an interstate highway, you want to go over 40. > The Prius+, with the add-on battery pack will give the average > driver well over 100 mpg; probably 120 mpg, I guess. The vehicle I suggest will do better than 120 mpg since you never need the large ICE during the average day. It will more like 1000 mpg... hmm... as in both cases the term is a sham since the energy is coming from the grid at night. But this grid power is or should be cleaner power: wind, hydro and nuclear - and one should use as much of it as possible. This Prius + is a futile watse of capital if it will not allow you to use the freeway without the gasoline engine. Why waste the money? Put the $6000 in a CD for 2007, when they have a vehicle that will be used on the the freeway without turning on a large, polluting and and unnecessary ICE. > That is the "average" driver in the city, the suburbs, on a > short commute or a reasonably long commute. In other words, if > nearly everyone drives a car like this in 8 years, the US > consumption of automobile gasoline will fall by a factor of > five. Or a factor of seven, if the design is improved (and it will be) to allow freeway travel with batteries alone and eliminate the large ICE altogether. > We should not wait for the ideal, perfectly up-to-date hybrid > design to emerge. Who say wait? Buy the Prius now and buy the improved serial hybrid in 2007. That is what the auto industry craves - planned obsolescence. Don't get me wrong, the Prius is definitely a step in the right direction, no doubt about it - but its weaknesses are now obvious and should not be perpetuated for the sake of preserving a dinosaur - the large ICE. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 24 15:39:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9OMcUcU018251; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 15:38:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9OMcCfY018058; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 15:38:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 15:38:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051024180549.056905b0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 18:34:39 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Plug-and-play Prius Problems In-Reply-To: <00f001c5d8e3$c2ec5090$6401a8c0 NuDell> References: <00c401c5d8cd$ca2031d0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051024154409.04663af0 pop.mindspring.com> <00e201c5d8d9$6196e8f0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051024163937.05650870 pop.mindspring.com> <00f001c5d8e3$c2ec5090$6401a8c0 NuDell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64064 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >Illogical and incorrect. Batteries need only provide the stronger electric >motor with about 60 mile range, but the larger electric motor must be >freeway usable - so this is more batteries but and then a tiny Wankel >genset can boost that range enormously - up to the 600 mile level on those >occasions when it is required. I think this design would either be dangerous or very inconvenient -- take your pick. The integration of the motor and batteries has to be fully automatic and transparent. Earlier, you suggested that a user leaving on a long trip might turn on the genset when he leaves home. What would happen if he forgot to do this? What if he failed to notice that the battery pack is nearly exhausted? A half-hour after he reaches the highway, the battery is exhausted. Here are two scenarios: 1. The genset comes on automatically, but it does not have enough horsepower to keep the car running at full highway speed. The car slows down rapidly. This is obviously dangerous and would not be allowed. 2. When the battery is nearly exhausted, and alarm appears on the dashboard, just as it does when gasoline tank is nearly empty. The driver turns on the genset but he has to exit the highway quickly, and wait a half an hour for the batteries recharge. Then he tries another hundred miles, exits, waits another half-hour, drives again . . . etc. The only way to avoid option #2 to is to have the genset powerful enough to carry the full weight of the vehicle at highway speeds for hundreds of miles, up long steep grades. Even with a battery pack that will go 100 miles on level ground, the ICE has to be capable of carrying the vehicle for 200 miles at 80 or 90 mph. For a long trip, the battery can only be thought of as a buffer, not a source of energy. So you are back to the Prius design, with a large ICE. Since you are back to this, you might as will use the ICE directly. The extra gas you use every year will not add up to much, and it will increase the performance of the car. The Prius does actually have pretty good performance even at 80 mph, although it starts to make a racket and the mpg rating drops precipitously. High performance is important in the US. We must have a rapid start-up and an obscenely high maximum speed (100 mph or more). This is because our highways are populated by maniacs and it is sometimes necessary to get out of the way quickly. I have a 40 hp Geo Metro with a new clutch. In Japan or Europe this would be adequate for any road other than a German autobahn, but I would be taking my life and my hands driving it on Atlanta highways. A plug-in hybrid with a small genset would either have inadequate performance or it would have to stop and wait for recharge frequently. (The autobahns, by the way, have ridiculously high casualty rates, contrary to their reputation.) >>they might as will use it at peak output from time to time to prolong >>battery power. High speeds and long-distance will both quickly drain the >>limited battery reserves of a plug-in hybrid, so you might as well resort >>to using the ICE early on. > >NO WAY ! You seem to be missing the whole point. I understand what you are saying, but I think you have it wrong, because you are thinking of the ICE as a way of augmenting the batteries, whereas in the real world, given real driving conditions and limitations of present day batteries the ICE must have the capacity carry the entire vehicle for hundreds of miles at high speed. Of course it might work in a serial hybrid mode (what you are proposing), just as a modern railroad locomotive does. The ICE charges the battery or powers the electric motor, and never directly powers the drive train. But it still has carry the full burden of the load for hours at a time. Furthermore, a serial-hybrid design is less efficient and it would call for more weight and a larger ICE engine plus a larger electric motor. That's the trade-off. It would work out better for people who commute no more than 100 miles normally. Even at highway speeds they would only use the battery, and they would not need the ICE. On the other hand, people driving 500 miles would end up using the ICE more, and burning more gas, than they would with a Prius. The car would be heavier and the ICE would have to do more work. Take someone like me, who hardly ever drives at highway speeds. If I stick with the parallel Prius+ design, using the ICE at speeds above 40 mph, I will end up burning five or 10 gallons per year of gasoline more than I would with your serial hybrid design. I would still reduce overall consumption by huge margin, in compared to an ordinary driver I would use practically no gasoline. On the other hand, since there are millions of urban commuters like me, overall this would consume many millions of gallons of gasoline extra. There are more of us than there are people who drive 500 miles per day on a routine basis. So you are right: looking at the big picture, the serial configuration probably would be better for most drivers under most circumstances, and the Prius design would probably be better for things like long-haul trucks. However, as I said, there is much to be said for going with the design we now have, since that design has been tested for many years and debugged. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 24 15:39:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9OMcVnh018277; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 15:38:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9OMcShO018225; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 15:38:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 15:38:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051024183519.05689050 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 18:37:32 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Plug-and-play Prius Problems In-Reply-To: <00f001c5d8e3$c2ec5090$6401a8c0 NuDell> References: <00c401c5d8cd$ca2031d0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051024154409.04663af0 pop.mindspring.com> <00e201c5d8d9$6196e8f0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051024163937.05650870 pop.mindspring.com> <00f001c5d8e3$c2ec5090$6401a8c0 NuDell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64065 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >>The cost probably is higher, because petroleum is more expensive than >>coal or natural gas per MJ. I meant the fuel efficiency, or carbon >>emission per passenger mile. > >Carbon emission can be much lower - using more batteries and a genset and >NO large ICE. Wind, hydro and nuclear can do this. So that argument for >the large ICE falls flat on its face in the comparative picture. What would drive the genset in this scenario? Hydrogen? That's a long way off at best. I think we should discuss what we can do this year or next year, with existing technology. The only practical plug-in hybrid today would have to use gasoline in the genset. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 24 15:47:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9OMl6Ou023369; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 15:47:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9OMl34s023323; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 15:47:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 15:47:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051024184020.05656650 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 18:46:09 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Plug-and-play Prius Problems In-Reply-To: <010a01c5d8ea$ff76a680$6401a8c0 NuDell> References: <00c401c5d8cd$ca2031d0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051024154409.04663af0 pop.mindspring.com> <00e201c5d8d9$6196e8f0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051024163937.05650870 pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20051024172605.05656d60 pop.mindspring.com> <010a01c5d8ea$ff76a680$6401a8c0 NuDell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64066 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >Jed, > >>The biggest advantage the Prius has over other designs is that it exists. >>You can buy one. > >Yes. I hope they sell all they can make. No one is suggesting that they >cease making them because the design is less than adequate. However to add >a larger battery pack to the present design if silly if you can't use it >on the freeway. You misunderstand. The prototype Prius+ with an add-on battery pack cannot be used on the freeway. This is a temporary limitation because they are working on a shoestring. The version that they will sell next year as an add-on kit *will* be used on the freeway, and it will save significant amounts of gasoline even on the freeway, even compared to a regular Prius. It will not be quite as good as the serial design you are discussing, especially for people who only travel on the freeway for 10 miles or so, but it will be better than an unmodified Prius and *far* better than a regular car. >>The Prius+, with the add-on battery pack will give the average driver >>well over 100 mpg; probably 120 mpg, I guess. > >The vehicle I suggest will do better than 120 mpg since you never need the >large ICE during the average day. It will more like 1000 mpg... hmm... No, all else being equal (the weight of the car and so on), it will achieve a lower mile per gallon rating with the ICE engages, but something roughly equal 240 mpg when fossil fuel electricity is used. When the electricity comes from nuclear or wind, the comparison becomes fairly meaningless -- like comparing apples to oranges. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 24 16:21:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9ONKRVH012858; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 16:20:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9ONKJ60012723; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 16:20:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 16:20:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <011f01c5d8f0$914cb040$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <00c401c5d8cd$ca2031d0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051024154409.04663af0@pop.mindspring.com> <00e201c5d8d9$6196e8f0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051024163937.05650870@pop.mindspring.com> <00f001c5d8e3$c2ec5090$6401a8c0@NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051024180549.056905b0@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Plug-and-play Prius Problems Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 16:13:38 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64067 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: What if... (Jed asks) > The genset comes on automatically, but it does not have enough > horsepower to keep the car running at full highway speed. The > car slows down rapidly. This is obviously dangerous and would > not be allowed. I think you partially answered you own question when you said "The only way.... is to have the genset powerful enough to carry the full weight of the vehicle at highway speeds for hundreds of miles, up long steep grades..." As you not doubt remember from your vision-quest LENR book - and the possibility of using LENR for auto power - the minimum needed here is low what - maybe 30 kwh... remember? OK let's return to the premise of the light Wankel-based genset. This is 50 kwh unit which is more than enough to "carry the full weight of the vehicle at highway speeds for hundreds (even hundreds of thousands of miles) and up long steep grades"... BUT it is not high torque power for acceleration... Big difference. Otherwise the small small Wankel would have supplanted the large ICE years ago. This is the beautiful synergy you seem to be looking past. The small Wankel spins fast, and is as efficient as any gasoline ICE, but in a small size, it only works in a situation where high torque can be provide by something else - in this case a large electric motor - the characteristic of which is maximum torque at minimum RPM. Yes, its constant high 6000 rpm will wear it down fast if it is used all the time for power. If you need it only four weeks a year for long trips it should be be good for maybe 15 years, however. It is a match made in heaven, but apparaently I failed to explain that well enough. The bottom line is that - for comparative purposes, the very substantial amount of weight you save by going to the small Wankel can be devoted to batteries instead. Imagine the old heavyweight GM EV1 which was so very popular with owners but had short range and no backup - this Wankel genset would have kept it in contention. Of course GM is old school - "not invented here syndrome" and they lost what little advantage they had with it. The larger electric motor needs more stored kwh than the Prius but that is for freeway use. Big electric motors are more - not less efficient than small ones. Plus - if it can go on the highway without needing the fossil fuel engine at all - then we are only going to need to provide for the longer trip scenario. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 24 16:53:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9ONrRgp029496; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 16:53:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9ONrQNt029486; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 16:53:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 16:53:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [68.158.14.247] X-Originating-Email: [caliostro1795 hotmail.com] X-Sender: caliostro1795 hotmail.com In-Reply-To: <00f001c5d8e3$c2ec5090$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Alex Caliostro" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Plug-and-play Prius Problems Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 17:52:59 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Oct 2005 23:52:59.0210 (UTC) FILETIME=[1002CAA0:01C5D8F6] Resent-Message-ID: <7c0YEB.A.kMH.1PXXDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64068 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >From: "Jones Beene" >The Wankel is only 80 pounds (maybe 120 with the larger alternator) and can >provide 50 kwh. Is the rotary seal (ring) problem considered solved? How long before a rotary disassembly is required(used to be 60,000 miles)? My friend has over 350,000 miles on his Toyota Previa with no major overhaul (just annal maintenance). _____ -alex _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 24 17:01:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9P00Heb000679; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 17:00:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9P00FiX000645; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 17:00:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 17:00:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [68.158.14.247] X-Originating-Email: [caliostro1795 hotmail.com] X-Sender: caliostro1795 hotmail.com In-Reply-To: <20051024.085027.760.235009 webmail12.nyc.untd.com> From: "Alex Caliostro" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: ICEs can't burn h2 Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 17:59:44 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Oct 2005 23:59:44.0748 (UTC) FILETIME=[01BAFAC0:01C5D8F7] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64069 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >From: "gesrebspar juno.com" >Vortexians- Maybe what we need is another great race like the one > the FEDs did for the self controled car in the mojave. Would you restrict it to internal combustion engines or all methods of propulsion/generation? Can we use distilled water? _____ -alex _________________________________________________________________ Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 24 17:39:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9P0d7kv023300; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 17:39:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9P0d59Q023278; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 17:39:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 17:39:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <32849313.1130200726364.JavaMail.root mswamui-backed.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 20:38:46 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Plug-and-play Prius Problems Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64070 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene writes: > OK let's return to the premise of the light Wankel-based genset. > This is 50 kwh unit which is more than enough to "carry the full > weight of the vehicle at highway speeds for hundreds (even > hundreds of thousands of miles) and up long steep grades"... BUT > it is not high torque power for acceleration... I see your point. But the Prius ICE is 70 HP (52) kW, so it is the same. The ICE is small, too. Much smaller than a regular engine. It is 34% efficient. I doubt the Wankel is much better than that. Here is an interesting description of the Prius Atkinson cycle ICE: http://home.earthlink.net/~graham1/MyToyotaPrius/Understanding/InternalCombustion.htm > The bottom line is that - for comparative purposes, the very > substantial amount of weight you save by going to the small Wankel > can be devoted to batteries instead. What is the difference in weight? I cannot find the weight of either engine. All I can say is that the Prius engine is even smaller than the Geo Metro engine. It looks like a motorcycle engine. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 24 18:30:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9P1TWxg019702; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 18:29:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9P1TQ1i019648; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 18:29:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 18:29:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <018401c5d903$7abe2c60$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: StarRotor: was Pllug-in Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 18:29:01 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0181_01C5D8C8.CDEF5480" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64071 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0181_01C5D8C8.CDEF5480 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Another light engine for longer-term consideration - for a multi-fuel = generator to be used in conjunction with a hybrid serial configuration - = there is the StarRotor which looks a little like the Wankel but is = actually a Brayton cycle: http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=3D85550 http://www.starrotor.com/Engine.htm Even if this StarRotor 'hype' were to be accurate (reminds me of the = quasi-turbine) which is not likely, it would probably take a decade to = get it into mass production. Here is the reference for the possible Wankel to be used in a dedicated = genset - 75 hp and 80 pounds. It is one-half of the two-rotor production = engine. You need two rotors in the circumstance of variable speed. For a = constant speed genset - one rotor will suffice. Freedom is a subsidiary of Moller - the sky-car people: http://www.freedom-motors.com/ This predecessor of this engine was in production for motorcycles 35 = years ago - so it is not new. Mazda makes the ceramic seals, I am told. BTW this design can burn diesel, or gasoline, or ethanol, or hydrogen, = or biodiesel or any mix of them so there is more flexibility in fuel = sources. ------=_NextPart_000_0181_01C5D8C8.CDEF5480 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Another light engine for longer-term = consideration=20 - for a multi-fuel generator to be used in conjunction with a = hybrid=20 serial configuration - there is the StarRotor which looks a little like = the=20 Wankel but is actually a Brayton cycle:
 
http://www.starrotor.com/Eng= ine.htm
 
Even if this StarRotor 'hype' were to = be accurate=20 (reminds me of the quasi-turbine) which is not likely, it would probably = take a=20 decade to get it into mass production.
 
Here is the reference for the possible=20 Wankel to be used in a dedicated genset - 75 hp and 80 pounds. = It is=20 one-half of the two-rotor production engine. You need two rotors in the=20 circumstance of variable speed. For a constant speed genset - one=20 rotor will suffice.
 
Freedom is a subsidiary of = Moller - the=20 sky-car people:
 
This predecessor of this engine was in = production=20 for motorcycles 35 years ago - so it is not new. Mazda makes the ceramic = seals,=20 I am told.
 
BTW this design can burn diesel, or = gasoline, or=20 ethanol, or hydrogen, or biodiesel or any mix of them so there is more=20 flexibility in fuel sources.
------=_NextPart_000_0181_01C5D8C8.CDEF5480-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 24 22:25:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9P5PCOj010000; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 22:25:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9P5P8S9009985; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 22:25:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 22:25:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20051025052246127.1F0BD1C00084 mwinf3106.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20051025052247.009a6da8 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 06:22:47 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Plug-and-play Prius Problems Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64072 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 05:52 pm 24/10/2005 -0600, you wrote: > My friend has over 350,000 miles on his Toyota Previa > with no major overhaul (just annal maintenance). A new exhaust, no doubt! ;-) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 25 05:21:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9PCKe6Y015365; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 05:20:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9PCKcb2015353; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 05:20:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 05:20:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=g+nWYX6QFrgRKXDyzHBTU9k+lFRgnXfskKPM3iQlIiut1EbFe5l0Kha6h1TYhDIE; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220051022511209780 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Cheap Hydrogen Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 06:20:09 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94058c686e755a36be28998ec29a0278824350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.177 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64073 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Ronny Bar-Gadda is quite ambitious. :-) http://freshpatents.com/Radiant-energy-dissociation-of-molecular-water-into-molecular-hydrogen-dt20050210ptan20050029120.php http://www.swcoalition.org/Presentations.html "RONNY BAR-GADDA has worked with new energy technologies ever since his first job with Exxon (now Exxon-Mobil) where he was Exxon's first manager for the Alternative Energy Production from Biomass Program. At Exxon, Ronny invented the first garbage to gasoline process. He has since started three companies, the latest (Bar-Gadda, LLC) concentrating on his latest invention to produce cheap hydrogen from water." FJS ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Ronny Bar-Gadda is quite ambitious.  :-)
 
 
 

"RONNY BAR-GADDA has worked with new energy technologies ever since his first job with Exxon (now Exxon-Mobil) where he was Exxon's first manager for the Alternative Energy Production from Biomass Program. At Exxon, Ronny invented the first garbage to gasoline process. He has since started three companies, the latest (Bar-Gadda, LLC) concentrating on his latest invention to produce cheap hydrogen from water."

FJS

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 25 06:31:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9PDVHnb023696; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 06:31:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9PDVEHQ023655; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 06:31:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 06:31:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Originating-IP: [4.88.38.111] Mime-Version: 1.0 From: "gesrebspar juno.com" Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 13:29:41 GMT To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: ICEs can't burn h2 X-Mailer: Webmail Version 4.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <20051025.063010.21710.1043 webmail25.nyc.untd.com> X-ContentStamp: 2:2:2337801024 X-UNTD-OriginStamp: GUNT6dKCgH8aoKLPKyRSHpXaeLD3/qikYgfl48E7l+KPAYnLn9R54A== X-UNTD-Peer-Info: 10.141.27.165|webmail25.nyc.untd.com|webmail25.nyc.untd.com|gesrebspar juno.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j9PDUuV9023495 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64074 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vortexians- Any type of hydrogen source would be acceptable. Either hydrogen made on board or hydrogen bought from your local supplier. I was hopping the race would also demonstrate the infracstructure requirements and solutions for the so called hydrogen economy coming. -ges- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 25 07:13:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9PECgLa014159; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 07:12:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9PECe5f014142; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 07:12:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 07:12:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=RSX5aNHAMyo0R1SqG1EuqUmv/ZC55J12cXkibeiTQRN3uJ0RYXylHA9qci6WnX/WO6wA/vWdUFHSBPy85svEQ548pCBB/owCLwRcgiN2HZbu5sXl/U5dJ8+EW65Tft0Hu0JspjLkuouK8TP9sDqalFOHZ7PIL28/+3dk0cbfoR4= ; Message-ID: <20051025141219.26470.qmail web32203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 07:12:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Merlyn Subject: Re: Plug-and-play Prius Problems To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20051024180549.056905b0 pop.mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64075 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ah, but Jed are there actually that many drivers like you? I happen to live in Wichita, Ks and I can honestly say I have never driven a day in my life which did not involve 45 mph at minimum. My daily commute of 7 miles each way has me driving 55 mph for the majority, and that is without taking the major highways. Speed limits around here are typicaclly 40 mph, which means if you don't drive 45 you are somewhat of a road hazard. I will soon be changing jobs to one located downtown, and then will probably not have to drive over 40 for the majority of the commute, but that kinda depends on if I can miss rush hour or not. Point is that except for major metropolitan areas, most drivers need highway speeds for at least a portion of their daily commute. --- Jed Rothwell wrote: > > Take someone like me, who hardly ever drives at > highway speeds. If I stick > with the parallel Prius+ design, using the ICE at > speeds above 40 mph, I > will end up burning five or 10 gallons per year of > gasoline more than I > would with your serial hybrid design. I would still > reduce overall > consumption by huge margin, in compared to an > ordinary driver I would use > practically no gasoline. On the other hand, since > there are millions of > urban commuters like me, overall this would consume > many millions of > gallons of gasoline extra. There are more of us than > there are people who > drive 500 miles per day on a routine basis. So you > are right: looking at > the big picture, the serial configuration probably > would be better for most > drivers under most circumstances, and the Prius > design would probably be > better for things like long-haul trucks. However, as > I said, there is much > to be said for going with the design we now have, > since that design has > been tested for many years and debugged. > > - Jed > > > Merlyn Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist __________________________________ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 25 07:16:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9PEFvnj016719; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 07:16:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9PEFt0O016692; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 07:15:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 07:15:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=w9oAyTI5Haw+AjCuirKQG9xx4hQvcZPlnFld+TwiY+Kn6KrBf4G3Mspe3b0KY19WnF8fQk1hC7TYhxvSO6LCedMesc5/ikHXyQNx5lEXrTZzH1l3RbFrWU8q545t4yEFGDtA4/cNHkhcVLbrn5V62U3VXKDy98apSVMn+b7vqmw= ; Message-ID: <20051025141533.37785.qmail web32213.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 07:15:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Merlyn Subject: Re: ICEs can't burn h2 To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <20051025.063010.21710.1043 webmail25.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64076 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://www.isracast.com/tech_news/231005_tech.htm "THE CAR THAT MAKES ITS OWN FUEL A unique system that can produce Hydrogen inside a car using common metals such as Magnesium and Aluminum was developed by an Israeli company. The system solves all of the obstacles associated with the manufacturing, transporting and storing of hydrogen to be used in cars. Amnon Yogev, one of the two founders of Engineuity, and a retired Professor of the Weizmann Institute, suggested a method for producing a continuous flow of Hydrogen and steam under full pressure inside a car. The Hydrogen car Engineuity is working on will use metals such as Magnesium or Aluminum which will come in the form of a long coil. The gas tank in conventional vehicles will be replaced by a device called a Metal-Steam combustor that will separate Hydrogen out of heated water. The basic idea behind the technology is relatively simple: the tip of the metal coil is inserted into the Metal-Steam combustor together with water where it will be heated to very high temperatures. The metal atoms will bond to the Oxygen from the water, creating metal oxide. As a result, the Hydrogen molecules are free, and will be sent into the engine alongside the steam. The solid waste product of the process, in the form of metal oxide, will later be collected in the fuel station and recycled for further use by the metal industry." --- "gesrebspar juno.com" wrote: > Vortexians- Any type of hydrogen source would be > acceptable. > Either hydrogen made on board or > hydrogen bought from > your local supplier. I was hopping the > race would also > demonstrate the infracstructure > requirements and solutions > for the so called hydrogen economy > coming. > -ges- > > > Merlyn Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 25 07:35:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9PEYbMS000394; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 07:34:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9PEYYpm000360; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 07:34:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 07:34:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051025102404.05930690 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 10:33:59 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Plug-and-play Prius Problems In-Reply-To: <20051025141219.26470.qmail web32203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051024180549.056905b0 pop.mindspring.com> <20051025141219.26470.qmail web32203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <9UOaxD.A.cF.5JkXDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64077 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Merlyn wrote: >Ah, but Jed are there actually that many drivers like >you? Well, there are in densely populated urban areas, but I do not know what fraction of the population that would be offhand. I don't know much about the range of driving habits and conditions in the U.S. >My daily commute of 7 miles each way has me driving 55 mph for the >majority, and that is without taking the major highways. A serial hybrid plug-in design would probably save you a significant amount of gasoline compared to a plug-in Prius+. However, the Prius+ would still have an advantage over the regular Prius, particularly if you climb long steep hills, because it would have a larger buffer. Even at 50 or 80 mph the electric motor contributes a significant fraction of the energy in an unmodified Prius. Going uphill, the electric motor contributes until the battery is exhausted. Then the ICE begins to work harder. This is readily apparent; it makes more noise and the MPG rating on the computer screen falls. With a larger buffer, the electric motor would continue for more miles. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 25 08:00:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9PExilI013099; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 08:00:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9PExeCI013052; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 07:59:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 07:59:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051025104256.05932a60 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 10:59:00 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Plug-and-play Prius Problems In-Reply-To: <32849313.1130200726364.JavaMail.root mswamui-backed.atl.sa .earthlink.net> References: <32849313.1130200726364.JavaMail.root mswamui-backed.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64078 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: >I see your point. But the Prius ICE is 70 HP (52 kW), so it is the same. >The ICE is small, too. Much smaller than a regular engine. It is 34% >efficient. I doubt the Wankel is much better than that. The Prius ICE is derived from an earlier conventional Otto cycle Toyota engine. Even if a Wankel would be better in some ways, there is much to be said for using an off-the-shelf proven engine. This goes back to what I said yesterday about manufacturing thousands of DC3s in 1940, instead of trying to update the design. Imagine a time when millions of plug-in Prius cars are on the road, saving hundreds of millions of gallons of gasoline, and racking up millions of hours of experience with advanced batteries, control system, repairs, safety and so on. With that experience under our belt, it might be a good time to introduce a more radical Wankel serial hybrid design. This would also be a good time to introduce other radical changes to the automobile, such carbon filament materials for the body and hydrogen powered motors. Bringing out these improvements one at a time over a 5 or 10 year period would probably work better than trying to introduce them all at one time in something like an exotic "concept" car. All of these improvements will multiply together to reduce consumption. They do not add up; they multiply: if a light carbon body and a hybrid engine configuration both reduce consumption by by half, a vehicle combining both consumes only one fourth as much petroleum fuel as a conventional vehicle. As Shultz and Woolsey wrote: "The effects of these policies are multiplicative. All should be pursued since it is impossible to predict which will be fully successful or at what pace, even though all are today either beginning commercial production or are nearly to that point. The battery development for plug-in hybrids is of substantial importance and should for the time being replace the current r&d emphasis on automotive hydrogen fuel cells." http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/calcars-news/message/68 - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 25 09:01:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9PG0dc1017966; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 09:00:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9PG0Y7m017848; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 09:00:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 09:00:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051025115848.0593a010 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 11:59:43 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Job offer message Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64080 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Please ignore message. It was personal, although nothing seriously personal. (I write technical manuals & translations part time.) - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 25 09:08:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9PG7jil025616; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 09:08:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9PG7cat025475; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 09:07:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 09:07:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <005c01c5d97e$244deac0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <32849313.1130200726364.JavaMail.root mswamui-backed.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <6.2.1.2.2.20051025104256.05932a60@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Plug-and-play Prius Problems Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 09:07:04 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0059_01C5D943.778888C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64081 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0059_01C5D943.778888C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jed, Teaser: there is yet another 'one good battery' story at the end of this = ruminating post, for the benefit of anyone who can manage a bit more = chewing of the futurism-cud .... =20 >>I see your point. But the Prius ICE is 70 HP (52 kW), so it is the = same.=20 >>The ICE is small, too. Much smaller than a regular engine. It is 34%=20 >>efficient. I doubt the Wankel is much better than that. =20 > The Prius ICE is derived from an earlier conventional Otto cycle = Toyota=20 > engine. Even if a Wankel would be better in some ways, there is much = to be=20 > said for using an off-the-shelf proven engine. I am a big fan of Toyota and their top-notch quality control, but this = is still a valved-engine and not multi-fuel or hydrogen capable. Valves = are the weak point when going to oxidated fuels and the no-valve Wankel = is far better for using either alcohol or H2 than piston engines - = because there are no valves to corrode, and no pre-ignition risk.=20 Personaly, if I were to buy a new vehicle in 2006, I would not want to = be tied exclusively to gasoline - if given a choice - for the lifetime = of any automobile, knowing that all we need to do to allow the import of = cheap ethanol from Brazil or wherever -now is to drop the import tarrif = (and/or a "regime" change) following which this fuel savings could then = be heaped on top of the other savings. With any new car the only = guarantee other than the 20/20 warranty is exorbitant future gasoline = prices. In 2008 it will surprise no one if gasoline is $5 gallon or = more. Ethanol or aquanol could be the solution to that - but forget the = valved engine. With the Wankel - just add plasma plugs.=20 BTW the cheap-end of the Toyota line has better historical quality = control than any luxury car, BMW or Cadillac or even Lexus (which they = also make). Actually I own, and still use on occassion a 1990 Corrola = that has had zero non-scheduled maintenance over the past 15 years and = runs like a clock even though I have not given it a tune-up in this = millinium yet - and have been kind of using it as an experiment to see = if a 10 year old car can be used for another ten more years without a = tuneup (it has little trade-in value so why not?)=20 And don't forget that Mazda itself had made hundreds of thousands of = Wankels and although their quality control is not as good - it is very = good... and any design using a Wankel is not going to be "radical" any = more so than the Prius was a radical departure- both are derivative. I = just wish Toyota would start making the Wankel- now that most of the = patents have expired. Maybe they could trade their hybrid IP for Wankel = IP. =20 A light carbon body, as you mention, would be more raidcal and equally = desireable for a hybrid, and especially with that oft-mentioned but = seldom seen - 'one good battery'. EEStor Inc. is a Cedar Park, Texas startup that has developed a supposed = breakthrough battery technology - only is sounds more like a combination = of UltraCap and/or BatCap. Apparently a prototype factory is supposed to = be under construction now. The company was only founded in 2001 by Richard D. Weir, Carl Nelson, = and Richard S. Weir, who have backgrounds as senior managers at IBM and = Xerox, not in automotive nor batteries. If the prototype plant is = actually being built - this is a huge step as most of the other advanced = batteries except "bipolar Ni" appear to be in stall-mode. According to "Utility Federal Technology Opportunities," EEStor claims = to make a battery at half the cost per kilowatt-hour and one-tenth the = weight of lead-acid batteries.=20 Did you get that ? cheaper than lead-acid per kw and 1/10 the weight for = the same power? Specifically, the product itself weighs 400 pounds (why = not smaller?) and delivers 52 kilowatt-hours on a fresh charge. Doesn't = sound like that much really, but compare it to what is available. The technology is basically a parallel plate capacitor with barium = titanate as the dielectric, plus something else - but is a ceramic-based = unit. EEStor was supposed to build (in 2005) an assembly line - to = produce vet and supply them in modest quantity - and then license the = technology to manufacturers for volume production. Selling price would = start at $3,200 for low volume and fall to $2,100 in high-volume = production. - about $5+ per pound. Lead acid is less per pound ($1+) but = only a tenth as energetic per pound. NiMH is heavier per unit output and = four times costlier for the same power.=20 But given the recent history of such announcements - don't get your = hopes up too high yet. I hope Toyota is listening and gets in on the = ground floor, if this is not another big flop-announcement... Details = sparse, even for business week, and I can find no recent update on = whether they have actually started construction or not, but you can = (usually)bet your hat, that if K-P (the premier VC firm) is in on it - = it will be a winner: http://www.businessweek.com/the_thread/dealflow/archives/2005/09/kleiner_= perkins_1.html ------=_NextPart_000_0059_01C5D943.778888C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jed,
 
Teaser: there is yet another 'one good = battery'=20 story at the end of this ruminating post, for the benefit of anyone who = can=20 manage a bit more chewing of the futurism-cud ....
 
>>I see your point. But = the Prius=20 ICE is 70 HP (52 kW), so it is the same.
>>The ICE is small, = too. Much=20 smaller than a regular engine. It is 34%
>>efficient. I doubt = the=20 Wankel is much better than that.
 
> The Prius ICE is = derived from=20 an earlier conventional Otto cycle Toyota
> engine. Even if a = Wankel=20 would be better in some ways, there is much to be
> said for = using an=20 off-the-shelf proven engine.
 
I am a big fan of Toyota and their = top-notch=20 quality control, but this is still a valved-engine and not multi-fuel or = hydrogen capable. Valves are the weak point when going to oxidated fuels = and the=20 no-valve Wankel is far better for using either alcohol or H2 than piston = engines=20 - because there are no valves to corrode, and no pre-ignition risk.=20
 
Personaly, if I were to buy = a new=20 vehicle in 2006, I would not want to be tied exclusively to = gasoline -=20 if given a choice - for the lifetime of any automobile, knowing that all = we need=20 to do to allow the import of cheap ethanol from Brazil or wherever = -now is=20 to drop the import tarrif (and/or a "regime" change) following which = this fuel=20 savings could then be heaped on top of the other savings. With any new = car the=20 only guarantee other than the 20/20 warranty is exorbitant future = gasoline=20 prices. In 2008 it will surprise no one if gasoline is $5 gallon or = more.=20 Ethanol or aquanol could be the solution to that - but forget the valved = engine.=20 With the Wankel - just add plasma plugs.
 
BTW the cheap-end of the Toyota line = has better=20 historical quality control than any luxury car, BMW or Cadillac or even = Lexus=20 (which they also make). Actually I own, and still use on occassion a = 1990=20 Corrola that has had zero non-scheduled maintenance over the past 15 = years and=20 runs like a clock even though I have not given it a tune-up in this = millinium=20 yet - and have been kind of using it as an experiment to see if a 10 = year=20 old car can be used for another ten more years without a tuneup (it = has=20 little trade-in value so why not?) 
 
And don't forget that Mazda itself had = made=20 hundreds of thousands of Wankels and although their quality control is = not as=20 good - it is very good... and any design using a Wankel is not = going=20 to be "radical" any more so than the Prius was a radical departure- =  both=20 are derivative. I just wish Toyota would start making the Wankel- now = that most=20 of the patents have expired. Maybe they could trade their hybrid IP for = Wankel=20 IP.
 
A light carbon body, as = you mention,=20 would be more raidcal and equally desireable for a hybrid, = and especially=20 with that oft-mentioned but seldom seen - 'one good = battery'.

EEStor Inc. is a Cedar Park, = Texas startup=20 that has developed a supposed breakthrough battery technology - only is = sounds=20 more like a combination of UltraCap and/or BatCap. Apparently a = prototype=20 factory is supposed to be under construction now.

The company was only founded in 2001 by = Richard D.=20 Weir, Carl Nelson, and Richard S. Weir, who have backgrounds as senior = managers=20 at IBM and Xerox, not in automotive nor batteries. If the prototype = plant is=20 actually being built - this is a huge step as most of the other advanced = batteries except "bipolar Ni" appear to be in = stall-mode.

According to  "Utility Federal = Technology=20 Opportunities," EEStor claims to make a battery at half the cost per=20 kilowatt-hour and one-tenth the weight of lead-acid batteries. =

Did you get that ? cheaper than lead-acid = per kw and=20 1/10 the weight for the same power? Specifically,=20 the product itself weighs 400 pounds (why not smaller?) and delivers 52=20 kilowatt-hours on a fresh charge. Doesn't sound like that much really, = but=20 compare it to what is available.

The technology is basically a parallel = plate=20 capacitor with barium titanate as the dielectric, plus something else - = but is a=20 ceramic-based unit. EEStor was supposed to build (in 2005) an = assembly=20 line - to produce vet and supply them in modest quantity - and then = license=20 the technology to manufacturers for volume production. Selling price = would start=20 at $3,200 for low volume and fall to $2,100 in high-volume production. - = about=20 $5+ per pound. Lead acid is less per pound ($1+) but only a tenth as = energetic=20 per pound. NiMH is heavier per unit output and four times costlier = for the=20 same power.

But given the recent history of such = announcements -=20 don't get your hopes up too high yet. I hope=20 Toyota is listening and gets in on the ground floor, if this is not = another big=20 flop-announcement... Details sparse, even for business week, and I can = find no=20 recent update on whether they have actually started construction or not, = but you=20 can (usually)bet your hat, that if K-P (the premier VC firm) is in = on it -=20 it will be a winner:

http://www.businessweek.com/the_thread/dealflow/archives/2005/09= /kleiner_perkins_1.html

 

------=_NextPart_000_0059_01C5D943.778888C0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 25 10:26:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9PHPO8B007929; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 10:25:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9PHPLuW007883; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 10:25:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 10:25:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <007a01c5d989$00fdd7f0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: OT: The RumsFlu strike hard Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 10:24:49 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0077_01C5D94E.543875F0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <5sl9TD.A.76B._pmXDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64082 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0077_01C5D94E.543875F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For the politically savvy and politically cynical (is there any = difference)... Circulating on the internet today is another sad tale of political greed = (if it is true). Even this cynical observer hopes sincerely that this = one is untrue. Once upon a time and not so long ago, our President George W. Bush = sought to warn us the citizenry of this great land (or was he being = duped by his 2nd closest buddy after Cheney) by telling us that a great = pox is on the loose in Asia, and that it will arrive to our shores this = winter, and that a minimum of 200,000 people will likely die from the = avian flu pandemic, if it goes unchecked - but it could be as bad as 2 = million deaths in this country alone. We must leap into action = immediately !! This totally invented hoax is then used to justify the purchase of 80 = million doses of Tamiflu, a worthless drug that in no way shape or form = treats the avian flu, but only decreases slightly the amount of days one = is sick from any viral infection - and can actually contribute to any = virus pandemic having more lethal mutations - by allowing sick workers = to keep working and spread the infection. So, following this grim and straight-faced warning from the highest = level - the U.S. placed an initial order for 20 million doses of this = worthless drug at a price of $100 per dose. That comes to a staggering = $2 billion with much more to come. We are being told that Roche, a Swiss company, manufactures Tamiflu and = there was no political payoff whatever involved in choosing this fine = company... ahem...in a recent New York Times article, Roche was battling = India and China over not allowing any foreign generic drug companies to = produce any of the very expensive drugs it holds patents on - for Aids = and so on. =20 But if you dig further you will find that this particular (nearly = worthless) drug was actually developed, not overseas, but by a = home-grown company called Gilead. Does that ring a bell? 10 years ago = Gilead contracted with Roche for the exclusive rights to market and sell = Tamiflu for a very high royalty payment back to Gilead. They were unable = to sell it till now because it has been proven not to work very well. Ahh, The Plot Thickens... If you read up on Gilead, you'll discover = Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld was made the chairman of Gilead in = 1997 and did not have to sell his large stock holding when he went into = government. Now he is looking at retiring form government. Since Rumsfeld holds major portions of stock in Gilead, he will = handsomely profit from the scare tactics of the government that is being = used to justify the purchase of minimum of $2 and probably $8 billion of = worthless Tamiflu. He will easily end up a billionaire from this. Or is this tale of greed just another... in a cruel plot by enemies of = the immoral majority to cast doubt on their brethren ... the loving and = beneficent motives for such things as the War and bloody invasion, under = false pretenses of a sovereign nation - causing 30,000 innocent = civilians to loose their lives - "collateral damage" as Rummy likes to = call it... fortunes of War... but whose war and for what, Donny boy? http://www.iraqbodycount.net/ Hey the Fortunes of Peace are not too bad either, if you happen to be a = beneficiary of the absurd Tamiflu scare, and can retire into the Payola = enhanced billionaire boys club, along with the other Bush-buddies ... Jones ------=_NextPart_000_0077_01C5D94E.543875F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
For the politically savvy and = politically cynical=20 (is there any difference)...

Circulating on the internet today is = another=20 sad tale of political greed (if it is true). Even this cynical = observer=20 hopes sincerely that this one is untrue.

Once upon a time and not so long ago, our President George W. = Bush=20 sought to warn us the citizenry of this great land (or = was he=20 being duped by his 2nd closest buddy after Cheney) by telling us that a = great=20 pox is on the loose in Asia, and that it will arrive to our shores this = winter,=20 and that a minimum of 200,000 people will likely die from the avian flu=20 pandemic, if it goes unchecked - but it could be as bad as 2 million = deaths in=20 this country alone. We must leap into action immediately !!

This totally invented hoax is then used to justify the purchase = of 80=20 million doses of Tamiflu, a worthless drug that in no way shape or form = treats=20 the avian flu, but only decreases slightly the amount of days one is = sick from=20 any viral infection - and can actually contribute to any virus pandemic = having=20 more lethal mutations - by allowing sick workers to keep working = and spread=20 the infection.

So, following this grim and straight-faced warning from the = highest=20 level - the U.S. placed an initial order for 20 million doses of = this=20 worthless drug at a price of $100 per dose. That comes to a staggering = $2=20 billion with much more to come.

We are being told that Roche, a Swiss = company, manufactures=20 Tamiflu and there was no political payoff whatever involved in choosing = this=20 fine company... ahem...in a recent New York Times article, Roche was = battling=20 India and China over not allowing any foreign generic drug = companies to=20 produce any of the very expensive drugs it holds patents on - for Aids = and so=20 on. 
 
But if you dig further you will find that this particular = (nearly=20 worthless) drug was actually developed, not overseas, but by a = home-grown company called Gilead. Does that ring a bell? 10 years = ago=20 Gilead contracted with Roche for the exclusive rights to market and sell = Tamiflu=20 for a very high royalty payment back to Gilead. They were unable to sell = it till=20 now because it has been proven not to work very well.

Ahh, The Plot Thickens... If you read up on Gilead, you'll = discover=20 Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld was made the chairman of Gilead in = 1997 and=20 did not have to sell his large stock holding when he went into = government. Now=20 he is looking at retiring form government.

Since Rumsfeld holds major portions of stock in Gilead, he will = handsomely profit from the scare tactics of the government that is being = used to=20 justify the purchase of minimum of $2 and probably $8 billion of = worthless=20 Tamiflu. He will easily end up a billionaire from this.
 
Or is this tale of greed just another... in a cruel plot by enemies = of the=20 immoral majority to cast doubt on their brethren ... the loving and = beneficent motives for such things as the War and bloody invasion, under = false=20 pretenses of a sovereign nation - causing 30,000 innocent civilians to = loose=20 their lives - "collateral damage" as Rummy likes to call it...  = fortunes of=20 War... but whose war and for what, Donny boy?
http://www.iraqbodycount.net/<= /DIV>
 
Hey the Fortunes of Peace are not too bad either, if you happen to = be a=20 beneficiary of the absurd Tamiflu scare, and can retire into the = Payola=20 enhanced billionaire boys club, along with the other Bush-buddies=20  ...
 
Jones
 
------=_NextPart_000_0077_01C5D94E.543875F0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 25 10:31:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9PHUnwT011584; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 10:31:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9PHUbSw011397; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 10:30:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 10:30:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Cheap Hydrogen X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = dcf35902a696aec8ab4a512a7c111b8b Reply-To: michael.foster excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20051025172959.63439299BF xprdmailfe22.nwk.excite.com> Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 13:29:59 -0400 (EDT) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64083 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Oh yeah, Ronnie is really ambitious. If you read his "radiant energy" water dissociation patent application, you find that it depends on a membrane that separates monatomic hydrogen from monatomic oxygen and water vapor. The nature of this membrane is unspecified in the patent app. However, I think you can buy them at Home Depot. Being kind of bored with this idea, Ronnie licensed his invention to a start-up of unknown qualification, and is now running for public office. What a guy. M. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 25 10:41:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9PHeCeY020536; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 10:40:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9PHe3pC020444; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 10:40:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 10:40:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=N6Cu1iihem5v2thsx0OX6qyqrYIG5zj46ESk4S/e2i96KSDb8m6M73TdmWxRrJb9; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200510225163923620 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Cheap Hydrogen Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 11:39:23 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940414f494b632bf6fbba94e8b1932e6a84350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.165.96 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64084 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII I think concentric tube electrolysis of pure water at it's critical temperature and pressure would give high pressure Hydrogen (small diameter Palladium inner-tube Cathode silver outer tube) much more efficiently than Ronny Bar-Gadda's wishful thinking. IOW, diffusion separation. " SCW exhibits properties also characteristic of other SCFs; these include high solvating power, compressibility and favourable mass transport ability (Section 3.1.). In general, organic compounds and gases are soluble in SCW, while inorganic compounds such as salts are insoluble." "The ion product, or dissociation constant (Kw), for water is about three orders of magnitude higher in the vicinity of the critical point of water than it is at STP. Consequently, higher H+ and OH- ion concentrations can be achieved there than at STP. Near the critical point, the dissociation of water itself generates high H+ ion concentration and some acid-catalysed reactions may occur without any acid added. However, when the critical point is exceeded, Kw decreases rapidly. For example, Kw is about nine orders of magnitude lower at 600°C and 250 atm than it is at STP." FJS ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
I think concentric tube electrolysis of  pure water at it's critical temperature and pressure would
give high pressure Hydrogen (small diameter Palladium inner-tube Cathode silver outer tube)
much more efficiently than Ronny Bar-Gadda's wishful thinking. 
 
IOW, diffusion separation.
 
" SCW exhibits properties also characteristic of other SCFs; these include high solvating

power, compressibility and favourable mass transport ability (Section 3.1.). In general,

organic compounds and gases are soluble in SCW, while inorganic compounds such as

salts are insoluble."

"The ion product, or dissociation constant (Kw), for water is about three orders of

magnitude higher in the vicinity of the critical point of water than it is at STP.

Consequently, higher H+ and OH- ion concentrations can be achieved there than at STP.

Near the critical point, the dissociation of water itself generates high H+ ion concentration

and some acid-catalysed reactions may occur without any acid added. However, when the

critical point is exceeded, Kw decreases rapidly. For example, Kw is about nine orders of

magnitude lower at 600°C and 250 atm than it is at STP."

FJS
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 25 10:45:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9PHiqXd023792; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 10:45:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9PHipS1023764; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 10:44:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 10:44:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=R8lQgdJ1yKbwsoq1FzZ4M3OAyCiz0aGEHgkGfM03i3K2yqYZKzq4OgX5PSiPTyXh; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200510225164420660 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: RE: Cheap Hydrogen Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 11:44:20 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94055c15ade0ad2c16383785aca73fb9e9a350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.165.96 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64085 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Amen, Michael. :-) Fred > [Original Message] > From: Michael Foster > To: > Date: 10/25/05 12:31:57 PM > Subject: RE: Cheap Hydrogen > > > Oh yeah, Ronnie is really ambitious. If you read his > "radiant energy" water dissociation patent application, > you find that it depends on a membrane that separates > monatomic hydrogen from monatomic oxygen and water vapor. > The nature of this membrane is unspecified in the patent > app. However, I think you can buy them at Home Depot. > > Being kind of bored with this idea, Ronnie licensed his > invention to a start-up of unknown qualification, and is > now running for public office. What a guy. > > M. > > > _______________________________________________ > Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com > The most personalized portal on the Web! > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 25 10:53:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9PHqbZs028972; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 10:52:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9PHqXxw028927; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 10:52:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 10:52:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000d01c5d98c$d2bbd0a0$e2017841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051025115848.0593a010 pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Job offer message Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 12:52:09 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.8 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64086 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed, The going contract rate for a qualified technical writer on a short term basis is $ 60 bucks an hour. Thats what Houston labor is and it's cheaper than Atlanta. Ask and thou shall receive. Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2005 10:59 AM Subject: Re: Job offer message > Please ignore message. It was personal, although nothing seriously > personal. > > (I write technical manuals & translations part time.) > > - Jed > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 25 11:03:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9PI2kX9002598; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 11:03:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9PI2UII002305; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 11:02:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 11:02:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051025134820.059323f0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 14:01:26 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: OT: The RumsFlu strike hard In-Reply-To: <007a01c5d989$00fdd7f0$6401a8c0 NuDell> References: <007a01c5d989$00fdd7f0$6401a8c0 NuDell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64087 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >Once upon a time and not so long ago, our President George W. Bush sought >to warn us the citizenry of this great land (or was he being duped by his >2nd closest buddy after Cheney) by telling us that a great pox is on the >loose in Asia, and that it will arrive to our shores this winter, and that >a minimum of 200,000 people will likely die from the avian flu . . . This has been common knowledge for years. Bush has sought to downplay this information, not to warn us about it. Beene may dismiss this threat, but experts at the CDC (pals of mine) and elsewhere are *very* worried about it. Influenza is one of the most deadly diseases. Any outbreak is a serious matter. Most of the steps now being taken to combat avian flu will help prevent or control other forms of influenza and other diseases. For example, vaccine production is being modernized and sped up. Let us hope this can be done in time. Actually, there may be some good news on this front. It may be that many people in the Far East who work with poultry have been infected but have shown no symptoms. I think they are going to conduct a new study looking for antibodies in these people. >This totally invented hoax is then used to justify the purchase of 80 >million doses of Tamiflu, a worthless drug that in no way shape or form >treats the avian flu . . . Published clinical studies indicate that it is effective. Beene should cite a paper to back up his claim. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 25 11:28:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9PISGxR024501; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 11:28:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9PIS9BV024354; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 11:28:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 11:28:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00b801c5d991$c3301240$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <018401c5d903$7abe2c60$6401a8c0 NuDell> Subject: StarRotor and other light engines Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 11:27:31 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00B5_01C5D957.166D2140" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <9f6HVB.A.L8F.3knXDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64088 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00B5_01C5D957.166D2140 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Another lightweight valve-less IC engine candidate (thanks to Ron Wormus = for sending me this), for use in a plug-in serial hybrid as back up - = which will allows several hundred pounds of un-needed = engine/transmission weight to be shifted to batteries, and also allows = for easy multi-fuel and hydrogen conversion (after-market) is the = direct-injected two-stroke. This is NOT your ordinary two-stroke. A major part of the air pollution = in Asia and Africa is generated by vehicles with traditional two-stroke = engines such as those used in India because the engine is dirt cheap to = manufacture and it will burn biodiesel (spark combustion) or even rancid = ghee and probably duck-butter as well. This engine is cheap, light, = multi-fuel, and NOT acceptable for the USA. But one major change = remedies that situation. =20 The CSU redesign is direct fuel injection, but is still cost-effective, = lightweight two-stroke technology which has the potential to = significantly reduce pollution throughout the developing world ... and = maybe has a use with plasma-sparked Aquanol. http://newsinfo.colostate.edu/index.asp?page=3Dnews_item_display&news_ite= m_id=3D1234310922 Jones Here is the info on Star Rotor which as Fred mentioned some time ago can = be used in Brayton mode as an alternative to the Stirling: This is another light engine for longer-term consideration - for a = multi-fuel generator to be used in conjunction with a hybrid serial = configuration. StarRotor which looks a little like the Wankel, but is = actually better used in a Brayton cycle, so maybe with compressed air = which is also heated slightly it would be doubly cost effective: http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=3D85550 http://www.starrotor.com/Engine.htm Even if this StarRotor 'hype' were to be totally accurate (reminds me of = the quasi-turbine), it would probably take a decade to get it into mass = production and all the bugs worked out. Here is the reference for the possible Wankel to be used in a dedicated = genset - 75 hp and 80 pounds.=20 http://www.freedom-motors.com/ It is half of the two-rotor - which is in production now. You need two = rotors for the circumstance of variable speed. For a constant speed = genset - one rotor will suffice. Freedom is a subsidiary of Moller - the sky-car people: This predecessor of this engine was in production for motorcycles 35 = years ago - so it is not new. Mazda makes the ceramic seals, I am told. BTW this design can burn diesel, or gasoline, or ethanol, or hydrogen, = or biodiesel or any mix of them so there is more flexibility in fuel = sources. ------=_NextPart_000_00B5_01C5D957.166D2140 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Another lightweight valve-less IC = engine candidate=20 (thanks to Ron Wormus for sending me this), for use in a plug-in serial = hybrid=20 as back up - which will allows several hundred pounds of un-needed=20 engine/transmission weight to be shifted to batteries, and also allows = for easy=20 multi-fuel and hydrogen conversion (after-market)  is the = direct-injected=20 two-stroke.

This is NOT your ordinary two-stroke. A major = part of=20 the air pollution in Asia and Africa is generated by vehicles with = traditional=20 two-stroke engines such as those used in India because the engine is = dirt cheap=20 to manufacture and it will burn biodiesel (spark combustion) or even = rancid ghee=20 and probably duck-butter as well. This engine is cheap, light, = multi-fuel, and=20 NOT acceptable for the USA. But one major change remedies that=20 situation.
 
The CSU redesign is direct = fuel injection, but=20 is still cost-effective, lightweight two-stroke technology which has the = potential to significantly reduce pollution throughout the developing = world ...=20 and maybe has a use with plasma-sparked Aquanol.
 
http://newsinfo.colostate.edu/index.asp?pa= ge=3Dnews_item_display&news_item_id=3D1234310922

Jones
 
 
Here is the info on Star Rotor which as = Fred=20 mentioned some time ago can be used in Brayton mode as an alternative to = the=20 Stirling:

This is another light engine for longer-term = consideration -=20 for a multi-fuel generator to be used in conjunction with a hybrid = serial=20 configuration. StarRotor which looks a little like the Wankel, but = is=20 actually better used in a Brayton cycle, so maybe with compressed air = which is=20 also heated slightly it would be doubly cost effective:

ht= tp://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=3D85550

http://www.starrotor.com/Eng= ine.htm


Even if this StarRotor 'hype' were to be totally accurate = (reminds=20 me of the quasi-turbine), it would probably take a decade to get it into = mass=20 production and all the bugs worked out.

Here is the reference for = the=20 possible Wankel to be used in a dedicated genset - 75 hp and 80 pounds. =
http://www.freedom-motors.com/

It is half of the two-rotor - which is in production now. You = need two=20 rotors for the circumstance of variable speed. For a constant speed = genset=20 - one rotor will suffice.

Freedom is a subsidiary of Moller - the = sky-car=20 people:

This predecessor of this engine was in production for = motorcycles=20 35 years ago - so it is not new. Mazda makes the ceramic seals, I am=20 told.

BTW this design can burn diesel, or gasoline, or ethanol, = or=20 hydrogen, or biodiesel or any mix of them so there is more flexibility = in fuel=20 sources.
------=_NextPart_000_00B5_01C5D957.166D2140-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 25 11:51:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9PIpCUD009830; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 11:51:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9PIp3mH009750; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 11:51:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 11:51:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051025143515.05936840 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 14:50:13 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Mixing hydrogen and gasoline Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64089 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Some fellow called me yesterday on the telephone to chat about his work. (He said he would send a web site but he has not got around to it.) Anyway, he says he is injecting hydrogen into gasoline, which improves mileage without embrittling the engine. He has been running a car on the stuff for a few years and it seems okay. He is working on a small electrolytic generator and compressor for the home, and Kelvar tanks for the vehicle. He sounded responsible about safety. The beauty of this approach is that if you use up all the hydrogen on a long trip, or you forget to recharge overnight, your car still works normally on gasoline. This would be a good starting measure to begin popularizing hydrogen and conserving gasoline. The two big stumbling blocks with hydrogen are the distribution network and the need for precious metals with hydrogen fuel cells. A home generator would partly solve the first problem, but it would not work if you take a long trip on the highway. That makes this intermediate solution mixing gasoline and hydrogen attractive. The only problem with a home generator is that pressure is limited and you cannot make liquid hydrogen. I assume . . . But I would love to have a cryogenic gadget! I think that liquid hydrogen will call for something like cold fusion or hot fusion anyway since there is such a large extra energy cost. "There is a large energy penalty for hydrogen compression (equal to 10% of the energy content of the gas compressed) or liquefaction (30%)." (http://www.aip.org/tip/INPHFA/vol-10/iss-1/p20.html) - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 25 11:59:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9PIwXL4013939; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 11:58:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9PIwJLF013711; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 11:58:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 11:58:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=jIc/kp6g3e9WFg9T6mcHbAu57q5V+kGkEq9YHfrF7Kotio59EjTEzgSP/xl7Y1r5; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200510225175718170 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: RE: Cheap Hydrogen & D2O Electrolysis Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 12:57:18 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940c06c08e0440e959bf5255f47b6693e78350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.159.87 Resent-Message-ID: <3mvfb.A.BWD.JBoXDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64090 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Hmmm, if the resistivity of pure H2O or D2O is 10^7 ohm-cm at STP , then three orders of magnitude increase in the ion product constant would drop the resistivity to 10^4 ohm-cm at the critical temperature (374 C or 705 F) and pressure (220 Bar or 3,300 PSI). Since resistivity rho = Resistance* Length/Area or R = rho* L/A a small diameter concentric Pd -Silver electrolyzer cell with 0.01cm spacing (~0..004") ( L ) and an area ( A ) of 100 cm^2 should have a resistance R = 10^4 * 0.01/100 = 1.0 ohms. Voltage V = 2.5 volts, Power W = V^2/R = 2.5^2/1.0 = 6.25 watts Current I = 6.25 amperes. High Pressure Hydrogen (~3,300 psi out of the electrolysis cell). Small grease gun from WalMart (~$10.00) and a grease fitting/check valve from Pep-Boys to feed in the make-up H2O or D2O. Will it go OU on D2O? FJS ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 10/25/05 12:42:36 PM Subject: Cheap Hydrogen I think concentric tube electrolysis of pure water at it's critical temperature and pressure would give high pressure Hydrogen (small diameter Palladium inner-tube Cathode silver outer tube) much more efficiently than Ronny Bar-Gadda's wishful thinking. IOW, diffusion separation. " SCW exhibits properties also characteristic of other SCFs; these include high solvating power, compressibility and favourable mass transport ability (Section 3.1.). In general, organic compounds and gases are soluble in SCW, while inorganic compounds such as salts are insoluble." "The ion product, or dissociation constant (Kw), for water is about three orders of magnitude higher in the vicinity of the critical point of water than it is at STP. Consequently, higher H+ and OH- ion concentrations can be achieved there than at STP. Near the critical point, the dissociation of water itself generates high H+ ion concentration and some acid-catalysed reactions may occur without any acid added. However, when the critical point is exceeded, Kw decreases rapidly. For example, Kw is about nine orders of magnitude lower at 600°C and 250 atm than it is at STP." FJS ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Hmmm, if the resistivity of pure H2O or D2O is 10^7 ohm-cm at STP , then
three orders of magnitude increase in the  ion product constant would drop the
resistivity to 10^4 ohm-cm at the critical temperature (374 C  or 705 F) and pressure (220 Bar or 3,300 PSI).
 
Since resistivity rho = Resistance* Length/Area  or R = rho* L/A  a small diameter concentric Pd -Silver
electrolyzer cell with 0.01cm spacing (~0..004")  ( L )  and an area ( A ) of  100 cm^2 should
have a resistance R = 10^4 * 0.01/100 =  1.0 ohms.
 
Voltage V = 2.5 volts,
 
Power W =  V^2/R  =  2.5^2/1.0  =  6.25 watts
 
Current  I = 6.25 amperes.
 
High Pressure Hydrogen (~3,300 psi out of the electrolysis cell).
 
Small grease gun from WalMart (~$10.00) and a grease fitting/check valve from Pep-Boys
to feed in the make-up H2O or D2O.
 
Will it go OU on D2O?
 
FJS
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 10/25/05 12:42:36 PM
Subject: Cheap Hydrogen

I think concentric tube electrolysis of  pure water at it's critical temperature and pressure would
give high pressure Hydrogen (small diameter Palladium inner-tube Cathode silver outer tube)
much more efficiently than Ronny Bar-Gadda's wishful thinking. 
 
IOW, diffusion separation.
 
" SCW exhibits properties also characteristic of other SCFs; these include high solvating

power, compressibility and favourable mass transport ability (Section 3.1.). In general,

organic compounds and gases are soluble in SCW, while inorganic compounds such as

salts are insoluble."

"The ion product, or dissociation constant (Kw), for water is about three orders of

magnitude higher in the vicinity of the critical point of water than it is at STP.

Consequently, higher H+ and OH- ion concentrations can be achieved there than at STP.

Near the critical point, the dissociation of water itself generates high H+ ion concentration

and some acid-catalysed reactions may occur without any acid added. However, when the

critical point is exceeded, Kw decreases rapidly. For example, Kw is about nine orders of

magnitude lower at 600°C and 250 atm than it is at STP."

FJS
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 25 12:03:42 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9PJ2bi6018599; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 12:02:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9PJ2Oht018392; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 12:02:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 12:02:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00c401c5d996$90cb6de0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <007a01c5d989$00fdd7f0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051025134820.059323f0@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: OT: The RumsFlu strike hard Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 12:01:54 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00C1_01C5D95B.E40855D0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64091 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00C1_01C5D95B.E40855D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Relax Jed, - I prefaced the remarks with the hope that the story was not = totally accurate, even if the Gilead/Rumsfeld part of it is totally = accurate - but you are definitely incorrect on several details about = influenza despite your supposed high level contacts at CDC.=20 The CDC has recently admitted publicly that a specific vaccine for = humans which is effective in preventing this strain of avian influenza = has not yet been developed - and that Tamiflu is only a stopgap of = limited usefullness for healthy adults. End of Story. > Bush has sought to downplay this information, not to warn us about = it.=20 You must have been watching another channel. > Beene may dismiss this threat, but experts at the CDC (pals of mine) = and elsewhere are *very* worried about it. That is their job. Your dog barks when he hears anyone at the door, even = you neighbor, that is his job. > Influenza is one of the most deadly diseases. Any outbreak is a = serious=20 > matter. Most of the steps now being taken to combat avian flu will = help=20 > prevent or control other forms of influenza and other diseases.=20 Any disease is serious. We should be talking about the cost = effectiveness of the solution. Every strain is different. Last years = avian flu is markedly different from this years. Last year's shot won't = work well either. End of Story. > For example, vaccine production is being modernized and sped up. Let = us hope this can be done in time. There is no effective vaccine now for this new strain of avian flu. End = of Story. =20 >>This totally invented hoax is then used to justify the purchase of 80=20 >>million doses of Tamiflu, a worthless drug that in no way shape or = form=20 >>treats the avian flu . . . =20 > Published clinical studies indicate that it is effective. Beene should = cite=20 > a paper to back up his claim. Here is a broader study from CDC, but apparently Dr. Butler is not one = of your aforementioned friends. Obviously they can't do a study on this = current strain of Avian flu until next year. Every year you need to find = the new strain ahead of time. Avain flu is no different from any other = flu in this regard. Some experts will tell you that all human flu has an = avian-based gene pool. Researchers at CDC found that in general giving workers a flu vaccine = costs much more than not vaccinating -- as much as $65.59 more per = person during one flu season. It would be much more with the high cost = and non-specificity of Tamiflu. Dr. Carolyn Buxton Bridges of the Centers for Disease Control and = Prevention in Atlanta, Georgia and colleagues looked at 1,184 employees = of the Ford Motor Company during the 1997-1998 flu season and 1,191 = during the 1998-1999 season. =20 Half of these people received the vaccine. Half did not. =20 During the first season, the flu shot did not make a dent in flu cases. This is because the strains included in the vaccine did not match the = strains that actually circulated that year. The strains miss as often as = the hit. During the second season, the vaccine did match perfectly for the = circulating flu strains and significantly cut illness but not cost: 1% = of the vaccinated workers got the flu, while 10% of unvaccinated workers = did. 90% of the unvaccinated workers did not catch the flu. Nevertheless, even during the second season, the cost of vaccinating = half of the workers still outweighed the economic benefits by over $11 = per person at Ford in this example. Dr. Bridges told Reuters Health that most of the respiratory illnesses = healthy adults get during the flu season are not the flu at all. Vaccination, when the strains matched perfectly, did prevent illness and = cut back on doctor visits and missed workdays, but only during one of = the two flu seasons studied. Last year in the USA the strains did not = match well yet there was no big epidemic. According to guidelines, people older than 65, the chronically ill, and = women who will be in their second or third trimester of pregnancy during = flu season are some of the groups who should get vaccinated. According to all reports Tamiflu is a broad based vaccine and not = specifically targeted to the current avian strain, so we are just like = the Ford study in the first year. Not useful. Jones ------=_NextPart_000_00C1_01C5D95B.E40855D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Relax Jed, - I prefaced the remarks = with the hope=20 that the story was not totally accurate, even if the Gilead/Rumsfeld = part of it=20 is totally accurate - but you are definitely incorrect on several = details about=20 influenza despite your supposed high level contacts at CDC. =
 
The CDC has recently admitted = publicly that a=20 specific vaccine for humans which is effective in preventing this strain = of=20 avian influenza has not yet been developed - and that Tamiflu is only a = stopgap=20 of limited usefullness for healthy adults. End of Story.

> = Bush has=20 sought to downplay this  information, not to warn us about it. =

You=20 must have been watching another channel.

> Beene may dismiss = this=20 threat, but experts at the CDC (pals of mine) and elsewhere are *very* = worried=20 about it.

That is their job. Your dog barks when he hears anyone = at the=20 door, even you neighbor, that is his job.

> Influenza is one = of the=20 most deadly diseases. Any outbreak is a serious
> matter. Most of = the=20 steps now being taken to combat avian flu will help
> prevent or = control=20 other forms of influenza and other diseases.

Any disease is = serious. We=20 should be talking about the cost effectiveness of the = solution. Every=20 strain is different. Last years avian flu is markedly different from = this years.=20 Last year's shot won't work well either. End of Story.

> For = example,=20 vaccine production is being modernized and sped up. Let us hope this can = be done=20 in time.

There is no effective vaccine now for this new strain of = avian=20 flu. End of Story.
 
>>This totally invented hoax is = then used=20 to justify the purchase of 80
>>million doses of Tamiflu, a = worthless=20 drug that in no way shape or form
>>treats the avian flu . .=20 .
 
> Published clinical studies indicate that it is = effective.=20 Beene should cite
> a paper to back up his = claim.

Here is a=20 broader study from CDC, but apparently Dr. Butler is not one of your=20 aforementioned friends. Obviously they can't do a study on this current = strain=20 of Avian flu until next year. Every year you need to find the new strain = ahead=20 of time. Avain flu is no different from any other flu in this regard. = Some=20 experts will tell you that all human flu has an avian-based gene=20 pool.

Researchers at CDC found that in general giving workers a = flu=20 vaccine costs much more than not vaccinating -- as much as $65.59 more = per=20 person during one flu season. It would be much more with the high cost = and=20 non-specificity of Tamiflu.

Dr. Carolyn Buxton Bridges of the Centers for Disease Control = and=20 Prevention in Atlanta, Georgia and colleagues looked at 1,184 employees = of the=20 Ford Motor Company during the 1997-1998 flu season and 1,191 during the=20 1998-1999 season.
 
Half of these people received the vaccine. Half did = not.
 
During the first season, the flu shot did not make a dent = in flu=20 cases.
 
This is because the strains included in the vaccine did not = match the=20 strains that actually circulated that year. The strains miss as often as = the=20 hit.

During the second season, the vaccine did match perfectly = for the=20 circulating flu strains and significantly cut illness but not cost: 1% = of the=20 vaccinated workers got the flu, while 10% of unvaccinated workers did. = 90% of=20 the unvaccinated workers did not catch the flu.

Nevertheless, even during the second season, the cost of = vaccinating=20 half of the workers still outweighed the economic benefits by over $11 = per=20 person at Ford in this example.

Dr. Bridges told Reuters Health that most of the respiratory = illnesses=20 healthy adults get during the flu season are not the flu at all.

Vaccination, when the strains matched perfectly, did = prevent=20 illness and cut back on doctor visits and missed workdays, but only = during one=20 of the two flu seasons studied. Last year in the USA the strains did not = match=20 well yet there was no big epidemic.

According to guidelines, people older than 65, the chronically = ill, and=20 women who will be in their second or third trimester of pregnancy during = flu=20 season are some of the groups who should get vaccinated.

According to all reports Tamiflu is a broad based vaccine and = not=20 specifically targeted to the current avian strain, so we are just like = the Ford=20 study in the first year. Not = useful.

Jones
------=_NextPart_000_00C1_01C5D95B.E40855D0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 25 12:57:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9PJvGFN027898; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 12:57:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9PJvEIH027878; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 12:57:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 12:57:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051025151351.05974c10 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 15:56:35 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: OT: The RumsFlu strike hard In-Reply-To: <00c401c5d996$90cb6de0$6401a8c0 NuDell> References: <007a01c5d989$00fdd7f0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051025134820.059323f0 pop.mindspring.com> <00c401c5d996$90cb6de0$6401a8c0 NuDell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64092 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Beene wrote: >. . . but you are definitely incorrect on several details about influenza >despite your supposed high level contacts at CDC. Low level. Basement level. Which gives them credibility, in my opinion. >The CDC has recently admitted publicly that a specific vaccine for humans >which is effective in preventing this strain of avian influenza has not >yet been developed . . . Actually, they now have something that seems be working pretty well with the native bird species, although it takes a huge dose of the stuff. Unfortunately if the virus becomes easily transmissible and it will probably also become immune to the present vaccine, but at least this gives them useful information and a good starting point. >- and that Tamiflu is only a stopgap of limited usefullness for healthy >adults. End of Story. A stopgap is *way* better than nothing! It reduces mortality with ordinary influenza. It appears to have an effect with avian influenza in people as well, but there have been few test cases. By the time most patients come to the hospital is usually too late. > > Bush has sought to downplay this information, not to warn us about it. > >You must have been watching another channel. In the last few weeks he has begun warning people, but for many years before that he did nothing. To be fair, the Clinton administration also did nothing, as far as I know. The present administration has built several splendid new structures here in Atlanta to replace the World War II era rotting buildings on the CDC campus, but unfortunately in order to pay for these buildings it wants to fire all the researchers. > > Influenza is one of the most deadly diseases. > >Any disease is serious. Influenza kills tens of thousands of people per year in the U.S. It is the 7th most deadly disease in the U.S., accounting for 3% of all deaths. Most US victims are either elderly or babies, but the 1918 avian flu killed mainly healthy young people between 10 and 40, for reasons that are now becoming clear, now that the virus has been brought back to life. Their very healthiness -- their strong antibody system -- is what killed them. The new virus might do the same thing. > We should be talking about the cost effectiveness of the solution. Every > strain is different. Last years avian flu is markedly different from this > years. Last year's shot won't work well either. End of Story. That is why broad-based research is needed to improve vaccine development and manufacturing techniques. As I said, most of the efforts now being devoted to avian flu will also be effective with future forms of flu and with many other infectious diseases such as tuberculosis. This fight will never end. >There is no effective vaccine now for this new strain of avian flu. End of >Story. That is incorrect. Also, the story is only beginning, and it will never end. They will be another strain after this and another after that. >Obviously they can't do a study on this current strain of Avian flu until >next year. Every year you need to find the new strain ahead of time. But previous strains tell you a great deal -- often enough to develop a vaccine. In fact the revived 1918 virus might even offer important clues for dealing with the present version because they are both avian varieties. Interesting footnote: if research into the 1918 virus proves to be the key to developing an effective vaccine for the 2005 variety in time, and this action prevents the death of hundreds of millions of people, it will mean that Abraham Lincoln twice saved civilization. The revived virus was made with DNA fragments from three sources: a grave in the Alaskan permafrost, and two tissue samples from a federal repository established by Abraham Lincoln during the Civil War. There are other tissue banks in the world, but this is the best, with the most complete collection, as you might expect from the federal government. The feds are nothing if not thorough. Researchers have scoured tissue banks and graves throughout the world but this is the only one that had what they were looking for. >Researchers at CDC found that in general giving workers a flu vaccine >costs much more than not vaccinating -- as much as $65.59 more per person >during one flu season. It would be much more with the high cost and >non-specificity of Tamiflu. Actually, Tamiflu is effective when when the symptoms develop, during the first few days. It is also used when the patient was exposed to the virus. It is not used for nonspecific applications because it is far too expensive. It does not prevent the disease, but it reduces the severity of the symptoms in many patients, which often prevents serious organ damage or death. >. . . During the second season, the vaccine did match perfectly for the >circulating flu strains and significantly cut illness but not cost: 1% of >the vaccinated workers got the flu, while 10% of unvaccinated workers did. >90% of the unvaccinated workers did not catch the flu. > >Nevertheless, even during the second season, the cost of vaccinating half >of the workers still outweighed the economic benefits by over $11 per >person at Ford in this example. This kind of analysis does not even begin to apply to a fatal pandemic such as the ones in 1918 version and 1958! >According to all reports Tamiflu is a broad based vaccine . . . It is not a vaccine. It does not produce antibodies, the way vaccines do. It inhibits viral "neuraminidase" (the surface enzyme that allows the virus to separate itself from cells). >and not specifically targeted to the current avian strain, so we are just >like the Ford study in the first year. Not useful. You have that backward. It is useful because it is not specifically targeted to the current avian strain. It works with all forms of influenza. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 25 13:00:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9PJx3Ve029128; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 12:59:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9PJwxEj029049; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 12:58:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 12:58:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00f401c5d99e$77d2a1c0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: OT: Bird flu resistant to Tamiflu Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 12:58:28 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00F1_01C5D963.CB0F89B0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64093 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00F1_01C5D963.CB0F89B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bird flu is resistant to Tamiflu: The World Today - Monday, 17 October , = 2005 Reporter: Julia Limb http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2005/s1484036.htm Oops. As has been rumored for some time in "unofficial" circles, Tamiflu = doesn't work against this year's on-coming strain of Avian flu. Although = it 'may' help lessen the severity of the old strain (last years) that is = now ancient history - and with the November flu season now fast upon us. = This is what the Bush administration does NOT want you to know, since = they have already blown $2 billion (much of it apparently going to = Rummy's retirement fund) so you will have to look overseas to find the = accurate story on the new strain of Avian flu- or online. What do the Aussies know that Jed's pals at CDC don't know. Maybe being = so close to China, they can't see the forest for the 'Nam jungle ? or = maybe they just did their own study rather than buy into the Roche = hard-sales pitch as did the CDC ? The study, which is to be published in the scientific journal "Nature," = if it cannot be suppressed by a last second CDC effort, has found that = the strain of the H5N1 bird flu virus, which was recently found in an = infected Vietnamese girl, is resistant to Tamiflu. ...or from the epicenter of the supposed-pandemic... Flu shots won't prevent bird flu: Chinese officials say. Vaccinations can help guard against regular influenza but they are not = effective against avian flu, the health ministry said=20 Flu shots can only help fight off regular influenza and there is no = evidence to prove that they are effective in combating avian flu, health = authorities said yesterday. "Flu shots can help combat only one-third of the usual flu viruses," = Deputy Minister of Health Chen Tsai-Chin said. "It is the government's = long-standing health policy to offer free flu shots to seniors and = infants, but no evidence has indicated that regular flu vaccinations can = help combat bird flu." Chen was among the health authorities invited to = brief the caucus on the progress of the government efforts to prevent = bird flu. "The drug should be used in the preliminary treatment of those exposed = to a high-risk environment," he said. Chang Chong-ming director of the = institute's department of business affairs, said that his institution is = capable of making samples that are 99.9 percent similar to Tamiflu. ------=_NextPart_000_00F1_01C5D963.CB0F89B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bird flu is = resistant to=20 Tamiflu: The World Today - Monday, 17 October , 2005  = Reporter: Julia=20 Limb
 
Oops. As has been rumored for some time = in=20 "unofficial" circles, Tamiflu doesn't = work=20 against this year's on-coming strain of Avian flu. Although = it 'may'=20 help lessen the severity of the old strain (last years) that is now = ancient=20 history - and with the November flu season now fast upon=20 us. 
 
This is what the Bush administration = does NOT want=20 you to know, since they have already blown $2 billion (much of = it=20 apparently going to Rummy's retirement fund) so you will have to = look=20 overseas to find the accurate story on the new strain of Avian flu- or=20 online.
 
What do the Aussies know that Jed's = pals at CDC=20 don't know. Maybe being so close to China, they can't see the = forest for=20 the 'Nam jungle ? or maybe they just did their own study rather = than buy=20 into the Roche hard-sales pitch as did the CDC ?
 
The study, which is to be published in = the=20 scientific journal "Nature," if it cannot be suppressed by a last second = CDC=20 effort, has found that the strain of the H5N1 bird flu virus, which = was=20 recently found in an infected Vietnamese girl, is resistant to=20 Tamiflu.
 
...or from the epicenter of the=20 supposed-pandemic...
Flu shots won't prevent bird flu: = Chinese officials=20 say.
 
Vaccinations can help guard against = regular=20 influenza but they are not effective against avian flu, the health = ministry said=20
Flu shots can only help fight off = regular influenza=20 and there is no evidence to prove that they are effective in combating = avian=20 flu, health authorities said yesterday.

"Flu shots can help combat only one-third = of the=20 usual flu viruses," Deputy Minister of Health Chen Tsai-Chin  said. = "It is=20 the government's long-standing health policy to offer free flu shots to = seniors=20 and infants, but no evidence has indicated that regular flu vaccinations = can=20 help combat bird flu." Chen was among the health authorities = invited to=20 brief the caucus on the progress of the government efforts to prevent = bird=20 flu.

"The drug should be used in the = preliminary treatment=20 of those exposed to a high-risk environment," he said. Chang Chong-ming = director=20 of the institute's department of business affairs, said that his = institution is=20 capable of making samples that are 99.9 percent similar to = Tamiflu.

 

------=_NextPart_000_00F1_01C5D963.CB0F89B0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 25 13:44:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9PKi8jm023111; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 13:44:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9PKi5uj023063; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 13:44:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 13:44:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051025161050.05937cd0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 16:43:35 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: OT: Bird flu resistant to Tamiflu In-Reply-To: <00f401c5d99e$77d2a1c0$6401a8c0 NuDell> References: <00f401c5d99e$77d2a1c0$6401a8c0 NuDell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64094 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >Bird flu is resistant to Tamiflu: The World Today - Monday, 17 October , >2005 Reporter: Julia Limb >http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2005/s1484036.htm > >Oops. As has been rumored for some time in "unofficial" circles, Tamiflu >doesn't work against this year's on-coming strain of Avian flu. Again, this has been common knowledge for months. Yes, there are some indications that the avian flu in birds is somewhat resistant to Tamiflu. This has many people worried. But it is not completely resistant. This resistance is probably caused by the overuse and misuse of related drugs. > Although it 'may' help lessen the severity of the old strain (last > years) that is now ancient history . . . Incorrect. The mechanism is not as specific as that of a vaccine, and it cannot be overcome in one season or by one genetic change. It resembles the growing resistance to antibiotics. An antibiotic resistant bacteria does not become *completely* resistant in one season. The antibiotic kills a smaller fraction of the sample, but it still works. >This is what the Bush administration does NOT want you to know, since they >have already blown $2 billion . . . The Bush administration has not prevented me from knowing this. As I said, it is common knowledge. Furthermore, every Western government is frantically stocking up on Tamiflu. The US, as it happens, is last in line. If this is a mistake it is being made by experts in every government, not only in the US. In any case, the opinions of this administration have no influence on the opinions of experts at the CDC and elsewhere in the medical establishment. A recommendation made by Rumsfeld will carry no weight among these people. There is a yawning gap between this administration and the scientific community. I do not think any other administration in modern times has so alienated scientists. >What do the Aussies know that Jed's pals at CDC don't know. Absolutely nothing, I assure you. They are in daily communication with experts in Australia and everywhere else on earth. > Maybe being so close to China, they can't see the forest for the 'Nam > jungle ? or maybe they just did their own study rather than buy into the > Roche hard-sales pitch as did the CDC ? The CDC has people in Vietnam at this moment, including my friends. >Vaccinations can help guard against regular influenza but they are not >effective against avian flu . . . Obviously! They would not do a darn thing to prevent the 1918 strain, either. But a specific vaccine for the 2005 avian variety was developed this year, and it has been tested in 450 healthy adults. You cannot go around deliberately exposing your human test subjects to live viruses, but it appears to be working, based on their anti-body response. See: http://www3.niaid.nih.gov/news/newsreleases/2005/avianfluvax.htm The Nature article you referred to concludes: "... preliminary results of tests in people of a vaccine against the H5N1 avian flu virus, showing that two large doses should protect adults from infection. ... " That is good news. Mixed, but good You should get your facts straight. The subject is scary enough without spreading baseless rumors giving the impression we are even more helpless than we are. By the way, if you are in the mood to panic, here is a worst-case scenario described in an imaginary future blog, published in Nature: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v435/n7041/full/435400a.html QUOTE: "27 February 2006 Everyone for themselves I watch the scenes of a society descending into chaos from the relative security of my mother's isolated home. Red tail lights snake to the horizon as people pour out of the cities. Half the doctors haven't turned up for work; many are either ill, or caring for loved ones. . . ." - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 25 14:45:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9PLihs7030735; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 14:44:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9PLiff8030719; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 14:44:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 14:44:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [64.174.37.158] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes msn.com] X-Sender: mgoldes msn.com From: "Mark Goldes" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: jonesb9 pacbell.net Subject: Bird Flu and Vitamin C Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 14:44:23 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Oct 2005 21:44:24.0836 (UTC) FILETIME=[444C7C40:01C5D9AD] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64095 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones, all, Cathcart is probably the leading authority on the medical use of Vitamin C. His website is a feast of information regarding the use of Vitamin C in medicine. ROBERT F. CATHCART III, M.D. ALLERGY, ENVIRONMENTAL & ORTHOMOLECULAR MEDICINE 127 SECOND STREET, SUITE 4 LOS ALTOS, CALIFORNIA 94022 (650) 949-2822 FAX (650) 949-5083 AVIAN (BIRD) FLU Treatment of the Bird Flu with massive doses of ascorbate would be the same as any other flu except that the severity of the disease indicates that it may take unusually massive doses of ascorbic acid orally or even intravenous sodium ascorbate. (Why the dose needed is somewhat proportional to the severity of the disease being treated is discussed in my paper published in 1981, Titrating to Bowel Tolerance, Anascorbemia, and Acute Induced Scurvy.) I have not seen any flu yet that was not cured or markedly ameliorated by massive doses of vitamin C but it is possible that the bird flu may require even higher doses such as 150 to 300 grams a day. Additionally, this flu could be primarily respiratory. This means that hospitalization might be necessary. If massive doses of ascorbate are not used, they may not be adequate. Most hospitals will not allow adequate doses of ascorbate to be given. (This is a legal problem because adequate doses of ascorbate are not practice of the community.) Therefore, it may be up to the individual patient to have materials available for their own use. These doses are easily tolerated by most but are much higher than doses thought high by 99.9% of the population. Therefore, be very careful to read and understand this site. If you want to use this ascorbate treatment in case you come down with this flu, please read all this now and be prepared. I have seen runs on the market before with flues and you might not be able to buy ascorbic acid or have some physician give you sodium ascorbate intravenously when you need it. Also, if you are not experienced with taking massive doses of ascorbic acid, practice before you have to. Ascorbic acid is usually well tolerated by young people but it may be that if you have the slightest thing the matter with your stomach, esophagus or intestines, you better work with this before a crisis occurs and you have problems that you find too late. Some people will have minimal gastritis that is no symptomatic and not even know it. So practice and get help if you need it before a crisis. The probable reason that birds carry this virus but it does not kill all of them is because birds make their own ascorbate. It does kill some of the birds because like this H 5N1 strain is very toxic and exceeds the ability of the birds to make ascorbate in some cases. Humans do not make ascorbate. However, in our chemical plants we can make more ascorbate than a bird. We just have to have the brains to know how to use it properly and adequately. The so-called experts in this disease are either unbelievably stupid or have their heads up the rear of the drug industry when they do not use massive doses of ascorbate to treat these dying patients. They will not even test the serum levels of ascorbate because when it is found to be zero only an imbecile would not know to use massive levels of ascorbate. The drug industry would not like that so they will not test the blood levels of ascorbate. Screw the patients. Viva la profits of the drug industry Links for "Vitamin C" and "bird flu", Google ~207,000,Yahoo ~514,000 and the genocidal bastards will not even try it. * Preparing for the Coming Influenza Pandemic, By Grattan Woodson, MD, FACP, Medical Director, The Druid Oaks Health Center, Decatur, GA USA * This is the most terrifying but possibly the most realistic worst case senerio of what could happen with the Avian Influenza Pandemic. * It, of course, does not consider the use of massive doses of ascorbate. * Note that the type 1 influenza, as described in this link, has components of hemorrhagic fevers. This means a profound acute induced scurvy. The best chance for these patients would be the immediate administration of massive amounts of sodium ascorbate intravenously. It should be treated like EBOLA see http://www.orthomed.com/ebola.htm#doses If the experts do not believe that there is acute induced scurvy, I defy them to measure serum ascorbate levels. * Asian Bird Flu Spreads to England * Preparation Inadequate for Pandemic Influenza Outbreak, Experts Say * U.S. health official says chances of preventing bird flu 'not good' * Girl Has Drug-Resistant Case of Bird Flu o So, Tamiflu may not work. No matter. The drug industry will make its money. For God's sake do not learn about massive doses of ascorbate. Viva la profits of the drug industry. * EU: Bird Flu in Turkey Is Deadly Strain * US mulls federal troops for bird flu quarantine * Scientists: 1918 Killer Spanish Flu Was a Bird Flu o So, the birds knew how to make and use ascorbate back in 1918 so the flu did not kill al of them and they could spread it around. * US warns bird flu could go global o Kill the birds because they make ascorbate and the disease therefore does not kill all of them. The drug industry has to keep this from being widely recognized because someone with an IQ over 100 might figure out that ascorbate might cure humans. God forbid that. * .S. health secretary warns of future bird flu pandemic * Romania begins vaccinations in fear of deadly bird flu exposure * Europe on bird flu alert * Bush Plan Shows U.S. Is Not Ready for Deadly Flu * Bush wants right to use military if bird flu hits o This threat is bad enough to try damn near anything but study the effect of massive doses of ascorbate. Viva la profits of the drug industry. * U.S. Moves to Prepare for Possible Bird Flu Threat * Quarantine call after Romania detects first bird flu cases * UN calls for more aid to fight bird flu in Asia * China drafts plan to fight bird flu o One of the things that really bothers me is that perhaps the doctors in China do not have there heads as far up the drug industry's rear and will generally recognize the value of massive doses of ascorbate on infectious diseases in general. This would give them a tremendous advantage in bacteriologic warfare. Specifically, massive doses of ascorbate could be used to prevent "backfire" for whoever started the bacteriologic war and who started it could remain secret. Actually, this effect on infectious diseases is not secret. It is all over the internet. It is just that the western doctors refuse to recognize it. Links for "Vitamin C" and "bird flu", Google ~202,000,Yahoo ~384,000 * Bird flu 'could kill 150 million' * WHO warns against bird flu 'scaremongering' * WHO: Impossible to Predict Bird Flu Deaths * Asian flu: Is the Government ready for an Epidemic?, ABC NEWS * Avian flu, bioterror and Washington * Indonesian bird flu patients on the mend, four more admitted * Avian Flu: Is the Government Ready for an Epidemic? Virus Poses Risk of Massive Casualties Around the World o They will stockpile $100 million of a still experimental vaccine and they say it could kill a billion people world wide but not a single cent has been spent by the federal government on researching massive doses of ascorbate for treatment. Millions of people use vitamin C to prevent most colds and flues and know damn well it works. Today a Google search for vitamin C and bird flu yielded 178,000 links. If anything like what is predicted happens and they are still keeping the massive doses of vitamin C secret for the profit of the drug industry, all of those involved in this genocidal coverup should be tried and appropriate penalties given. If you are lucky enough to be one who survives and you have a son or daughter who dies of this disease without being given massive doses of ascorbate and you have the personal knowledge and experience that the ascorbate works, you should take appropriate action against those involved in this negligence. * WHO's Chan aims to prepare world for bird flu outbreak * Bird flu pandemic a question of when, not if -WHO o They are predicting up to 7 million deaths and the experts will not try treating patients with massive doses of ascorbate. With the world's greatest chemist. Linus Pauling, writing a book on Vitamin C, the Common Cold and the Flu; and with the subsequent modification of his basic program to higher doses to make them really work; and with links for "Vitamin C" and "bird flu", Google ~182,000,Yahoo ~36,000, there has to be something wrong with the "experts" that they will not treat these patients with massive doses of ascorbate. The only reasonable explanation for this genocidal negligence is that they are trying to protect the interests of the drug industry. o It is of further interest that as this epidemic spreads over the world, maybe the physicians in one of the more uncivilized nations of the world may discover how to use massive doses of ascorbate and realize the importance of this substance in protecting against many of the agents of bacteriologic warfare and thereby prevent "backfire" against them and therefore give them an advantage in bacteriologic warfare that might make it feasible. o The whole reason that massive doses of ascorbate are so effective against a wide variety of diseases is that they can, for the first time, make it possible to eliminate almost all of the free radicals of many diseases. If the physicians would pull their heads out of the drug industry's rear, they would recognize that this substance would be one of the most important means to treat all sorts of diseases. This recognition, of course, would be a financial disaster for the drug industry and so has to be prevented no matter how many millions it kills over the years. * HK hunter hot on the trail of deadly bird flu virus * Bird flu pandemic will 'overwhelm hospitals' * Articles on bird flu: News Target o This link is to a large number of articles on bird flu. If anything, all this emphasizes how much worry there is about bird flu around the world and how much it will cost us. Nevertheless, the drug industry will not let loose its hold on the vitamin C secret. Everyone else's money and lives mean nothing compared to the profits of the drug industry. The effectiveness of massive doses of ascorbate on many diseases has to be kept secret at all costs. o This site is somewhat health oriented and with the authors and others they reference, I am surprised that they do not mention massive doses of ascorbate. Maybe this will change; we will see. * U.N.: Bird flu likely to spread to Europe, Middle East, Africa * Spread of bird flu virus is a 'national emergency' o Face facts, if you get the avian flu there is probably not a damn thing you can do. This is a tragedy because it is already known how to cure or ameliorate flues with massive doses of ascorbate but we are too much the pawns of the drug industry. Learning how to use massive doses of ascorbate would be a financial disaster to the drug industry. * How something so simple can be so deadly o It can be so deadly because the drug industry manages to keep the vitamin C secret away from the public. All of these acute viral diseases (note by saying acute, I leave out diseases such as AIDS and chronic hepatitis C) make symptoms of inflammation and kill by way of free radicals. Linus Pauling in his book on Colds and Flues documented how large doses of vitamin C can be helpful. We have since found out that he was on the correct path but his doses were not large enough. The magnitude of how much vitamin C is burned up by these diseases, I documented in the paper, VITAMIN C, TITRATING TO BOWEL TOLERANCE, ANASCORBEMIA, AND ACUTE INDUCED SCURVY in Medical Hypotheses, 7:1359-1376, 1981. In the 1970's in a large general practice in Incline Village, Nevada I saw hundreds of cases of acute viral diseases including at least 100 flu cases and did not even have to hospitalize one patient. Local physicians who did not use massive doses of ascorbate had to hospital several patients each flu season. o The doses of ascorbic acid orally or sodium ascorbate intravenously have to be large enough to force a reducing redox potential onto the tissues involved in the disease. Then, and only then, all of the free radicals in these tissues are neutralized, most of the symptoms eliminated, and the white cells rapidly kill the virus. In cases where the white cells cannot completely eliminate the virus, symptoms are suppressed sufficiently (I named this situation "unsick") so as not to bother the patient much until the antibodies build up sufficiently to kill the virus. Interestingly, the patient may stay "unsick" a day or two longer than they would have been uncomplicatedly sick, sick. Complication never develop when sufficient doses of ascorbate are used. This is because the "acute induced scurvy" in the primary sites of the viral infection of the disease cannot spread to adjacent tissues. However, the elimination of the free radicals that mediate inflammations decreases the stimulation causing the immune system to make antibodies. This is not a problem because the "unsick" condition is not very bothersome. No patient who experiences this would trade this for being sick, and even worse, dying. * How Can We Stop Another Pandemic? * Possible Case of Bird Flu First in Finland * China experts say bird flu bigger threat than SARS * Bird flu seen as bigger threat than SARS * Bird flu debate: remember the 1918 pandemic? o This is one of the most interesting analyses of the danger of the bird flu pandemic. What is so sad is that undoubtedly the cure of almost all cases is already possible. I have never seen a case of any type of flu that was not either cured or markedly ameliorated by massive doses of ascorbate. The problem is that the drug industry cannot afford to make this cure known because it would be a financial disaster for them. Everyone who depends upon treating of illnesses would be markedly affected if how to use massive doses of ascorbate were well known. The problem we face here is how can we maintain this secrete just for the profit of the drug industry when millions of lives are at stake and even tremendous losses to all the economies of the world are at stake. o One should ask themselves why the worlds greatest biochemist, Linus Pauling, the winner of two Nobel prizes, would have come out so strongly in favor of treating colds and flues with massive doses of vitamin C. He was on the right track but orthomolecular physicians have found even more massive doses safe and more effective. o One should ask themselves why an article on 1949 in a peer reviewed medical journal described how to cure polio and there has never been a study using comparable doses that refutes this article. * European farmers act to halt spread of bird flu * Vaccine Appears to Ward Off Bird Flu o This is going to be close. It looks like the drug industry may get something out maybe in time to make millions off the government. This is going to be a close one for Fauci. Fauci will be damned if he will try using massive doses of vitamin C on this flu. The drug industry would probably not have a big job for Fauci once he retires from the government if he did. To hell with the millions that may die. o My letter to Anthony S. Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, July 2, 2005. * Recent Avian Influenza Outbreaks in Asia, 07/24/05 o Note that birds and other animals (except for man, monkeys, Guinea pigs, and some fruit eating bats) make ascorbate. Domesticated animals who make ascorbate make less than the more wild animals. Therefore, it is not surprising how avian flu distributes itself. Wild ducks seem to carry the disease more without it killing them where it kills more chickens. So the flu kills the lesser ascorbate producing birds. Humans make no ascorbate so in the raw would be even more susceptible to some strains. Humans, of course, can make more ascorbate than any other animal in their chemical plants; they just have to have the brains to know how to take it. The drug industry and all their fellow travelers are fighting hard to hide the ascorbate secret because if the public finds out about it, it will be a financial disaster for the industry. * A flu nightmare, 07/15/05 o NOTICE TO THE CHORUS: You better start stockpiling ascorbic acid for oral use and sodium ascorbate for intravenous use. If this flu breaks out you will not be able to buy vitamin C in adequate forms and amounts for awhile. Not everyone has their heads up the drug industry's rear but they are slow in preparing so there will be a rush on the market should the epidemic occur. If we do not prepare ahead of time, many physicians will probably give intravenous sodium ascorbate to themselves and their families but will find some legal reason for not providing it to the public. Even those local to a physician already using intravenous sodium ascorbate may find that they cannot be treated if they are too sick because of the legal liability of treating a patient outside the hospital if they need some symptomatic support. And what hospital allows the use of massive doses of intravenous sodium ascorbate? Get with it gang or you may die unnecessarily. * Avian Flu: A State of Unreadiness (6/29/05) * A nightmare scenario (6/20/05) o A quarter of the world's population, 100 to 360 million people are predicted that they might die. Is the vitamin C secret worth that much even to the drug industry? When the owners, presidents, and loved ones of these drug industry related businesses start dying of the avian flu, will they wonder if killing the millions they have already killed to keep the vitamin C secret was worth it? * Vietnam faces dilemma over culling poultry as bird flu persists o It is well known that many diseases are species specific or that they may pass to different species with varying severities. However, an almost obvious factor is whether the species produces ascorbate. Man, higher monkeys, Guinea pig, and the African fruit eating bat do not make ascorbate. Other species make ascorbate in their liver or kidneys. This makes them far more resistant to diseases than humans. It should be obvious that some diseases usually fatal to humans might exist in birds without being fatal in many cases. Apparently the water fowl have not figured out how to stop making ascorbate so they can die so as not be culled out by humans. Humans, on the other hand, can make far more ascorbate in their chemical plants but are kept ignorant of how to use this ascorbate to save lives from these diseases so as to profit the drug industry. * Bird flu epidemic could kill as many as 750,000 in Britain: estimate o These victims will die of free radicals generated by the bird flu virus unless the idiots will use the obvious treatment of using massive doses of sodium ascorbate intravenously until the acute phase is over followed by bowel tolerance doses of ascorbic acid until fully recovered. Massive doses of ascorbate will absolutely neutralize those killing free radicals. The public should raise hell and force the issue that massive doses of ascorbate should be used. We can no longer tolerate the suppression of ascorbate just for the profit of the drug and related industries. This is too many lives to lose for this ignorance. * U.S. Tests Confirm Encephalitis in Bangladesh o I want to make sure I have this straight. We are supposed to be relieved that this disease that has killed 23 is not the disease that has now killed 8. Actually, it makes little difference because both can be undoubtedly cured with massive doses of ascorbate. From very superficial evidence however, it would appear the this encephalitis might be a 200 or more gram disease whereas the bird flu is probably a 100 to 200 gram disease. * New virus kills 14 in Bangladesh: WHO * U.N. to Give Aid to Impoverished Bird Flu Nations o You can be sure that the U.N. will not tell them how to use massive doses of ascorbate even though it is cheap and effective because word of this would get back to countries who can afford expensive ineffective drug treatments. That would be terrible for the profits of the drug industry. * Bird Flu Death Toll Rises to 15; China Concerned o They need to be concerned because they will not try the easy cure of this disease which is the use of massive doses of ascorbate. * Flu Fears Force Killing of Delaware Birds * China urged to act as fears grow of bird flu mutation o Ho, Hum! Another fear story about a disease that is easily cured or ameliorated with massive doses of ascorbate. However, the real problem is that this is not allowed because it would cut down on the profits of the drug industry. Lives mean nothing compared to the importance of the profits of the drug industry. See the story about the now 44 year stonewalling of ascorbate. * Experts Fear Global Bird Flu Outbreak o Here we have another genocidal example of how massive doses of vitamin C will not be used against an acute viral disease. By eliminating the free radicals generated by any acute viral disease in a timely fashion hardly anyone should die of these diseases. Is it not interesting that with about half of Americans supplementing with vitamin C, that there is no listing of vitamin C in the annual indexes of major peer censored medical journals. They will not even investigate massive doses of ascorbate. If they do investigate ascorbate, they will use some puny dose such as four grams a day so that they can conclude it does little good. The reason is that if the majority of physicians began to utilize massive doses of ascorbate (like 30 to 200 grams of ascorbic acid orally or 60 to 180 grams of sodium ascorbate intravenously), it would knock the hell out of all these acute viral diseases and be a financial disaster for the drug industry. One cannot use massive doses of ascorbate on viral diseases without quickly coming to the conclusion of its beneficial effects on allergies, autoimmune diseases, bacterial infections, burns, injuries, etc. All diseases that generate massive amounts of free radicals can be cured or markedly ameliorate by massive doses of ascorbate. All this would be a financial disaster for the drug industry. Never mind the hundred of millions of lives it would save and the trillions of dollars it would save over a period of time. o The doses of ascorbate that should be used against the bird flu is probably similar to what should be used on the current flu unnecessarily killing thousands of people. Unnecessary because if these people were treated in a timely fashion with massive doses of ascorbate, they would not die. o The reason that these massive doses of ascorbate work against free radicals is by flooding the affected tissues with massive amounts of electrons (a reducing redox potential). These electrons in adequate amounts will always neutralize the free radicals generated by the disease. This fact is a matter of chemistry, not medicine. We do not have to worry about which flu, which antibodies, which immunization, etc. All these diseases make you sick by way of free radicals. No free radicals and your immune system makes short work of the whatever acute viruses. Chronic viral diseases are helped by are more complicated to treat and are not as easy cures. o With an acute viral disease, what is important to determine is what gram a disease it is. For instance, a 100 gram cold is a cold that allows the patient to take 100 grams of ascorbic acid in many divided doses per 24 hours before diarrhea is produced. What is happening here is that the free radicals generated by the disease processes are being neutralized by the electrons carried by the massive doses of ascorbate. As the ascorbate destroys the free radicals, the free radicals destroy the ascorbate. This is because ascorbate with all its electrons is very stable. But when it loses its electrons and becomes dehydroascorbate, its half-life is just a few minutes unless the electrons are returned. Therefore, other things being equal like the health of the bowel, the sicker a person is, the more free radicals, and the more ascorbate is destroyed. Of the ascorbate, what does not reach the rectum does not cause diarrhea. The diarrhea is not really a pathologic diarrhea but is caused by a hypertonic situation in the lumen of the rectum that attracts water into the rectum and causes the loose stools. Intravenous sodium ascorbate does not cause diarrhea because the hypertonic situation, if there is one, is outside the rectum. o It turns out that the forcing of a reducing redox potential (eliminating all the oxidizing free radicals) into the tissues involved in the disease is a threshold phenomenon. It is like arm wrestling where each pushes, pushes, pushes, and then one side or the other wins. The mathematical formulas describing redox potential involve logarithms. Logarithms go low, low, low and then rapidly go high. They are useful in mathematics mostly in the transition part where they begin to go up. Anyway, the "ascorbate effect," that is where the ascorbate suddenly eliminates the free radicals only where a high enough concentration of ascorbate and its electrons force their way into the diseased tissues in a high enough concentration to suddenly neutralize the free radicals. Lower doses of vitamin C may have a vitamin effect and eliminate some complications or slow down the spread of the disease throughout the body but this dramatic sudden "ascorbate effect" only happens at that high threshold dose. o Often this threshold effect can be accomplished with oral ascorbic acid in a person with a normal GI tract but with patients with tricky bowels or with more serious diseases, like a 300 or more gram disease, intravenous sodium ascorbate has to be used. Since ascorbate by vein is about 2 1/2 times more powerful than by mouth, very serious infections involving massive amounts of free radicals can be treated. Ascorbate is extremely well tolerated by humans. I have personally taken 180 grams of sodium ascorbate intravenously in 8 hours when well and still felt great. o I strongly suspect that hemorrhagic fevers such as Ebola, or Lass fever are examples of 300 to 500 gram diseases. The acute induced systemic scurvy induced by these massive amounts of free radicals generated by these types of diseases could still be neutralized by more massive doses of ascorbate intravenously. The implications of this is of obvious importance with bacteriologic warfare with diseases such as smallpox. o Opponents of massive doses of vitamin C will worry about stupid things like metabolic acidosis that never happen. When someone says something bad about massive doses of vitamin C, ask them how many patients have they treated with massive doses of vitamin C. Or if they are just mouthing the opinions of others, how many patients have those others treated with massive doses of vitamin C. You will find that they have no experience. All physicians who have experience with massive doses of ascorbate are advocates of massive doses of ascorbate. The opponents are either just stupid or they are part of the genocidal plot to preserve the profits of the drug industry. This is why you will not find any of this in the peer censored literature. o This is not to say that there are not some skills necessary to properly utilize massive doses of ascorbate but most of the questions can be answered by careful study of this site and I stand ready, as I am sure all the other physicians experienced in the use of massive doses of ascorbate, to help physicians who want to learn. Unfortunately, the usual physician who calls finally at the urging of the family of the dying patient, has a patient in kidney failure, heart failure, strokes, multiple infections, and in the final hours of life. Please do not let these infections get that far before asking for help. I do have a number of physicians who have called in time about themselves or members of their family. Bird flu outbreak started a year ago * Note that this and all flues involve free radicals and if you neutralize the free radicals with massive dose of ascorbate the disease will be ameliorated or cured. We do not have to wait for a drug or immunization. We have the treatment now but recognizing this cure would be a disaster to the drug industry. Face facts, the ignoring of the power of massive doses of ascorbate is only to keep the profits of those wanting to keep people sick. Asian Stocks End Lower on U.S. Losses, Bird Flu Jitters * Well, how we are gitting down to a serious subject, money. Will it occur to some wealthy people who are loosing money over the fear of this bird flu that there would be no fear if everyone realized that it could probably be cured and certainly ameliorated with massive doses of ascorbate. But then they will have to evaluate how much they gain from profits of the drug industry by keeping ascorbate secret. Face it, lives do no matter. Content (C) 2005 and prior years, Robert F. Cathcart, M.D. Robert F. Cathcart, MD, 650-949-2822 127 Second Street, #4 Los Altos, CA 94022 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 25 15:49:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9PMmlKA000707; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 15:49:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9PMmkAN000681; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 15:48:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 15:48:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002c01c5d9b6$31af6260$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <00f401c5d99e$77d2a1c0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051025161050.05937cd0@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: OT: Bird flu resistant to Tamiflu Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 15:48:16 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64096 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell quotes (... and also as-much-as admits he knew about the Tamiflu failure against the H 5N1 strain all along... and was evidently trolling...) > "27 February 2006 Everyone for themselves..." > I watch the scenes of a society descending into chaos from the > relative security of my mother's isolated home. Red tail lights > snake to the horizon as people pour out of the cities. Half the > doctors haven't turned up for work; many are either ill, or > caring for loved ones. . . ." Reminiscent of a black plague nightmare or other major tragedy... Maybe that date should be April 14th, 2006 or "Ruination Day"... as I've been having prophetic misgivings about that date ... but anyway...not likely unless it is some NeoCon Plotz... ;-) And thanks, Mark, for that tip on vitamin C. I will have to up my daily dose. And since we are trolling in cyberspace today anyway, here's one to carp about ... If one is of a certain age... and if this strain is similar to the Spanish Flu, and there are indications of that, and if your mother contracted but survived the 1918 epidemic, then you may be already protected thanks to Mom - if you breast-fed, that is. Baby boomers, following the big-one, were the first generation to be fed mostly "formula"... such is progress. ... looking back in history ... April 14 1747 Scottish naval surgeon (Limey) James Lind discovered that a nutrient (now known to be vitamin C) which in limes, prevented scurvy. April 14 1935 Dr. Tadeusz Reichstein, of the Swiss Institute of Technology first synthesizes Vitamin C April 14, 1906 President Theodore Roosevelt denounces "muckrakers" in U.S. press shortly before the Great SF Earthquake, April 14, 1903 Dr. Harry Plotz discovers vaccine against typhoid which is modified into Tamiflu by the Gilead Science Corp under the close direction of famous biochemist Don Rumsfeld April 14, 2005 Dr. Robert F. Cathcart III, M.D. of 127 SECOND STREET, SUITE 4 LOS ALTOS, CALIFORNIA 94022 discoveres the easy cure for the new Avian Flu in vitamin C Ok I made some of that up... Apropos of nothing really... just happened to have Sheryl on my nano today Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 25 18:54:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9Q1s96P011994; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 18:54:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9Q1s6ZY011976; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 18:54:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 18:54:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <10648664.1130291330100.JavaMail.root mswamui-bichon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 21:48:49 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT: Bird flu resistant to Tamiflu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64097 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene writes: > Jed Rothwell quotes (... and also as-much-as admits he knew about > the Tamiflu failure against the H 5N1 strain all along... and was > evidently trolling...) It is NOT a failure! Don't exaggerate. Tamiflu has been used to treat H5N1 in some cases, and it has apparently worked. Concerns have been raised by some that it may not be as effective against some strains as hoped. They are saying, quote, "[it] might be less useful than anticipated." That's not the same as saying "it failed." Here is what they concluded, which is far from pressing the panic button: "An H5N1 strain of bird influenza virus that infected a Vietnamese girl in February is resistant to the antiviral drug oseltamivir (sold as Tamiflu), Yoshihiro Kawaoka and colleagues report in a Brief Communication in this week's Nature. The girl recovered, but the finding raises the concern that oseltamivir may not be sufficient to fight a potential H5N1 pandemic. . . . The researchers identified a mutation in the virus strain's neuraminidase protein that rendered it resistant to oseltamivir, a drug which is designed to inhibit neuraminidase. However, when they used the resistant virus to infect ferrets, they found that it was still sensitive to zanamivir (sold as Relenza), another drug that inhibits the neuraminidase protein. 'It could be useful to stockpile zanamivir as well as oseltamivir in the event of an H5N1 influenza pandemic', the authors conclude." You should tone it down and present some evidence for your claims. You remind me of the people who claim that CF has "failed" because one or two experiments were flawed. It is not black and white. Do you really, seriously think that you know more about this than all those researchers and doctors who are urging governments to stockpile Tamiflu? Do you think they have all been duped by a U.S. government official? That's the stuff of a C-grade hollywood disaster flick, not real life. I have often called into question the judgement of leading scientists, but only with regard to subjects they think they know but they have not actually studied, such as CF. I would never claim that every single virologist in the world is wrong about H5N1 and Tamiflu, or that HIV does not cause AIDS. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 25 22:28:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9Q5R7MZ030639; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 22:27:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9Q5R5i5030594; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 22:27:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 22:27:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20051026052640698.1105A1C00082 mwinf3007.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20051026052641.009992dc pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 06:26:41 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: OT: Bird flu resistant to Tamiflu Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64098 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 03:48 pm 25/10/2005 -0700, you wrote: >And since we are trolling in cyberspace today anyway, here's one >to carp about ... If one is of a certain age... and if this strain >is similar to the Spanish Flu, and there are indications of that, >and if your mother contracted but survived the 1918 epidemic, then >you may be already protected thanks to Mom - if you breast-fed, >that is. Baby boomers, following the big-one, were the first >generation to be fed mostly "formula"... such is progress. Ooo! You've made my day Jones. 8-) My mother did have a bad attack of Spanish flu after WWI - and I was breast fed, she being the daughter of a doctor who believed in such things, together with wholemeal bread and plenty of fruit and veg. My mother lived to 102 so Dr Bokaert must have got most things right. Cheers, Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 26 00:00:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9Q708o4032334; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 00:00:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9Q706Ex032303; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 00:00:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 00:00:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Cheap Hydrogen Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 16:59:36 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <410-220051022511209780 earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <410-220051022511209780 earthlink.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.77.227] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Wed, 26 Oct 2005 06:59:36 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j9Q6xfTp032109 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64099 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Frederick Sparber's message of Tue, 25 Oct 2005 06:20:09 -0500: Hi, [snip] >Ronny Bar-Gadda is quite ambitious. :-) > >http://freshpatents.com/Radiant-energy-dissociation-of-molecular-water-into-molecular-hydrogen-dt20050210ptan20050029120.php > At least one slip up? >[0047] For example, as the hydrogen species exits the reaction zone from within the membrane 18, it recombines into hydrogen gas, or H.sub.2. When this recombination occurs, electromagnetic energy in the ultraviolet spectrum is emitted. Of course, this doesn't happen. H atoms require a third atom in order to combine, so that momentum may be conserved - or so I've been led to believe. :) This implies that the energy resulting from the recombination appears as kinetic energy of the particles, not as UV. Now that said, I fail to see why momentum can't be conserved between a molecule and an emitted photon. IOW why doesn't H recombine under emission of UV? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 26 04:42:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9QBfkDY004911; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 04:42:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9QBfiSQ004891; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 04:41:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 04:41:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=NLJfFp6scQU1qXgNwtWKus2lyPIMwVgLxUfH087OvbcxK6saQAAJERWF2ETmOdFx; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200510326104057600 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Cheap Hydrogen Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 05:40:57 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940b16647b34fa0e613f34ad3c735dd92af350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.195 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64100 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Robin van Spaandonk wrote: http://freshpatents.com/Radiant-energy-dissociation-of-molecular-water-into-molecular-hydrogen-dt20050210ptan20050029120.php > At least one slip up? > >[0047] For example, as the hydrogen species exits the reaction zone from > >within the membrane 18, it recombines into hydrogen gas, or H.sub.2. When this > >recombination occurs, electromagnetic energy in the ultraviolet spectrum is > >emitted. > > Of course, this doesn't happen. H atoms require a third atom in > order to combine, so that momentum may be conserved - or so I've > been led to believe. :) This implies that the energy resulting > from the recombination appears as kinetic energy of the particles, > not as UV. > > Now that said, I fail to see why momentum can't be conserved > between a molecule and an emitted photon. IOW why doesn't H > recombine under emission of UV? > Moot point. Where is Ronny Bar-Gadda going to get the mole of 4.525 plus a mole of 5.17 eV UV photons to split the H-OH and O-H bonds respectively, when you can take advantage of the free energy of auto-ionization of water and use ~2.0 eV to separate them? Or the Iodine-Sulfur thermal water-splitting process. Pie in the sky? :-) FJS ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
 
 

>  At least one slip up?

> >[0047] For example, as the hydrogen species exits the reaction zone from
> >within the membrane 18, it recombines into hydrogen gas, or H.sub.2. When this
> >recombination occurs, electromagnetic energy in the ultraviolet spectrum is
> >emitted.
 
>
> Of course, this doesn't happen. H atoms require a third atom in
> order to combine, so that momentum may be conserved - or so I've
> been led to believe. :) This implies that the energy resulting
> from the recombination appears as kinetic energy of the particles,
> not as UV.
>
> Now that said, I fail to see why momentum can't be conserved
> between a molecule and an emitted photon. IOW why doesn't H
> recombine under emission of UV?
>
Moot point.  Where is Ronny Bar-Gadda going to get the mole of 4.525 plus a mole of 5.17 eV
UV photons to split the H-OH  and O-H bonds respectively, when you can take advantage
of the free energy of auto-ionization of water and use ~2.0 eV to separate them?
 
Or the Iodine-Sulfur thermal water-splitting process.
 
Pie in the sky?  :-)
 
FJS
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 26 05:07:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9QC7JS3014805; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 05:07:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9QC7HCq014777; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 05:07:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 05:07:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=fhMNpwg7SdcHf241k2KCDoDVGm9KjO7fM0J8ILsbY7Kz1UJ/hr1q1dyReKHN7M7x; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220051032611621950 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Bird Flu and Vitamin C Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 06:06:21 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940eff8646805026ec923c3df25ea3d520b350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.154 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64101 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII 300 to 400 grams of Vitamin C is 300/454 to 400/454 (0.66 to 0.88 pound) dosage Mark. I don't put away much more food per day. :-( Can that be right? FJS ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

300 to 400 grams of Vitamin C is 300/454  to 400/454  (0.66 to 0.88 pound) dosage Mark. 
 
I don't put away much more food per day.  :-(
 
Can that be right?
 
FJS
 
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 26 06:29:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9QDTM35023657; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 06:29:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9QDTFfU023591; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 06:29:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 06:29:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] X-Originating-Email: [caliostro1795 hotmail.com] X-Sender: caliostro1795 hotmail.com In-Reply-To: <10648664.1130291330100.JavaMail.root mswamui-bichon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> From: "Alex Caliostro" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT: Bird flu resistant to Tamiflu Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 07:28:51 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Oct 2005 13:28:52.0031 (UTC) FILETIME=[34943CF0:01C5DA31] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64102 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >From: Jed Rothwell >Do you really, seriously think that you know more about this than all those >researchers and doctors who are urging governments to stockpile Tamiflu? Have you yet wondered why there is a shortage of Tamiflu? What limits its manufacture? Turns out it is a Chinese spice and herbal remedy, Star Anaise, which provides the primary ingredient. And Roche has bought all there is. http://www.theepicentre.com/Spices/staranis.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_anise _____ -alex _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 26 06:59:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9QDwut1009353; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 06:59:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9QDwspn009327; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 06:58:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 06:58:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [192.82.6.16] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes msn.com] X-Sender: mgoldes msn.com In-Reply-To: <410-220051032611621950 earthlink.net> From: "Mark Goldes" To: fjsparber earthlink.net, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: Bird Flu and Vitamin C Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 06:58:35 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Oct 2005 13:58:37.0183 (UTC) FILETIME=[5C9CD0F0:01C5DA35] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64103 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Could be. Cathcart discovered that several viral diseases believed impossible to treat, such as viral pneumonia, and AIDS, respond to massive doses of Vitamin C. He was using up to 200 grams some years ago. Above 100 grams daily is administered by injection, not orally. Before Linus Pauling died he was a great admirer of Cathcart's work. Pauling pointed out that with the exception of humans, monkeys and a few small animals, mammals generate Vitamin C in proportion to body weight. A 150 lb sheep produces 15 grams of C daily. He speculated that humans had once had that capability and lost it. That has recently discovered to be true. Pauling was taking 18 grams daily for several years before his death at about age 92. In his last book, How to Live Longer and Feel Better, he mentions that daily ingestion of whatever the proper supplement dosages are found to be needed, would probably extend trhe average human life by 20 years. Mark >From: "Frederick Sparber" >Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net >To: "vortex-l" >Subject: Bird Flu and Vitamin C >Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 06:06:21 -0500 > >300 to 400 grams of Vitamin C is 300/454 to 400/454 (0.66 to 0.88 pound) >dosage Mark. > >I don't put away much more food per day. :-( > >Can that be right? > >FJS From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 26 07:22:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9QEM6TZ020010; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 07:22:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9QELxGC019927; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 07:21:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 07:21:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] X-Originating-Email: [caliostro1795 hotmail.com] X-Sender: caliostro1795 hotmail.com From: "Alex Caliostro" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: OT: Sir Clarke on Communications Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 08:21:41 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Oct 2005 14:21:42.0129 (UTC) FILETIME=[961ACE10:01C5DA38] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64104 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: http://www.forbes.com/2005/10/19/clarke-arthur-communications_comm05_cx_ac_1024clarke.html I thought Jed might enjoy this anecdote since he uses voice recog s/w: "(My own first attempts to train one of the best current systems had hilarious results. When I said, ‘Now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of the party,’ the program revealed its impressive vocabulary with a startling display of political incorrectness: ‘Now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of apartheid.’)" _____ -alex _________________________________________________________________ Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 26 07:48:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9QEleFa030670; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 07:47:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9QElcp6030629; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 07:47:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 07:47:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Originating-IP: [4.88.32.130] Mime-Version: 1.0 From: "gesrebspar juno.com" Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 14:45:26 GMT To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Job offer message X-Mailer: Webmail Version 4.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <20051026.074553.2865.10948 webmail22.nyc.untd.com> X-ContentStamp: 1:1:151932403 X-UNTD-OriginStamp: GUNT6dKCgH8aoKLPKyRSHpXaeLD3/qikaQcb+VH7+vaVTefkTN5abQ== X-UNTD-Peer-Info: 10.141.27.162|webmail22.nyc.untd.com|webmail22.nyc.untd.com|gesrebspar juno.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j9QElH2A030478 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64105 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed-What a name- Anal Are YA? Wow.- Ges From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 26 08:04:21 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9QF3n8O005055; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 08:04:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9QF3mb1005024; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 08:03:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 08:03:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Originating-IP: [4.88.32.130] Mime-Version: 1.0 From: "gesrebspar juno.com" Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 15:02:12 GMT To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT: The RumsFlu strike hard X-Mailer: Webmail Version 4.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <20051026.080227.2865.11126 webmail22.nyc.untd.com> X-ContentStamp: 3:5:3667822889 X-UNTD-OriginStamp: GUNT6dKCgH8aoKLPKyRSHpXaeLD3/qikfT4zOm5LS2wZ1AzXngWvNQ== X-UNTD-Peer-Info: 10.141.27.162|webmail22.nyc.untd.com|webmail22.nyc.untd.com|gesrebspar juno.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j9QF3UMc004881 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64106 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vortexians- I some times wonder- How much money would be enough for the rich and greedy? The average person of today can work is whole live and justmake a million dollars if he never misses a day of work. Yet the rich and greedy can make several million in one year and still be hungary for more millions. A some point the rich need to figure out that they can not have it all and have Demoracy and capitalism. Capitalism needs controls to work and Demoracy needs all people to share. _ges- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 26 08:13:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9QFCwtP012012; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 08:13:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9QFCu48011986; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 08:12:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 08:12:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=DzSrLOwt//T4hkzqberrtotcyGnhduGIQAbyzK62OREO3XmtyIUH/+fQ9SqeBr4M; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200510326141227690 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Bubble Wrap Insulation & Plastic Netting Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 09:12:27 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940d07c6d3f894e327629d562f2b8d7f133350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.165.235 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64107 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII With natural gas selling at $1.45 per therm and going to $2.00 by next week, this might be a good investment for temporary "thermo-pane" solar heat, and insulation. In the early 1990s I tried some "bubble wrap" on a horizontal surface at 40 F outdoor air temperature at around 9:00 AM. The temperature under the 1/2" "bubble wrap" increased to about 120 F in a few minutes. http://www.eere.energy.gov/consumer/your_home/water_heating/index.cfm/mytopic=13140 "It's best to use a cover designed specifically for swimming pools. They're made of special materials, such as UV-stabilized polyethylene, polypropylene, or vinyl. They can be transparent or opaque. Covers can even be light or dark colored." "One of the lowest cost covers made specifically for swimming pools is the bubble (or solar) cover. Bubble covers are similar to bubble packing material except they use a thicker grade of plastic and have UV inhibitors." Some pool cover web sites have this stuff (and plastic netting) in rolls over 20 feet wide if you want to anchor it to your roof for the winter FJS ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

With natural gas selling  at $1.45 per therm and going to $2.00 by next week, this might
be a good investment for temporary "thermo-pane" solar heat, and insulation.
 
In the early 1990s I tried some "bubble wrap" on a horizontal surface at 40 F outdoor air
temperature at around 9:00 AM. The temperature under the 1/2" "bubble wrap" increased to about 120 F in a few minutes.
 
 
"It's best to use a cover designed specifically for swimming pools. They're made of special materials, such as UV-stabilized polyethylene, polypropylene, or vinyl. They can be transparent or opaque. Covers can even be light or dark colored."
 
"One of the lowest cost covers made specifically for swimming pools is the bubble (or solar) cover. Bubble covers are similar to bubble packing material except they use a thicker grade of plastic and have UV inhibitors."
 
Some pool cover web sites have this stuff (and plastic netting) in rolls over 20 feet wide
if you want to anchor it to your roof for the winter
 
FJS

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 26 08:17:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9QFHPNL014459; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 08:17:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9QFHNO8014433; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 08:17:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 08:17:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <004601c5da40$4bd5ebc0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: Subject: Re: Bird Flu and Vitamin C Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 08:16:52 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0043_01C5DA05.9EFFC0E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64108 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0043_01C5DA05.9EFFC0E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cathcart's web site says treatment of the Bird Flu with massive doses of = ascorbate would be the same as any other flu except that the severity of = the disease indicates that it may take unusually massive doses of = ascorbic acid orally, or even intravenous sodium ascorbate. According to = him, IF and when the body needs a massive dose, it will be tolerated by = the digestive system. Personally, I find that claim unlikely based on my = experience (~40 years of taking C in large doses). Even informed lay observers might consider much of the advice on this = site extreme. Whether it works or not is another issue - but the site is = short on actual statistical proof. Most medical professionals in the US = would consider these claims outrageous, but most of them are bonded = permanently - as if by feeding IV tubes, into the mother ship - the = largess of the drug companies. Roche must surely resent this kind of = alternative information as a costly intrusion into their turf. If only = 10% of potential patients opted for massive C, instead of Tamilfu it = could cost them billions. Cathcart claims to have treated 30,000 patients with massive dosages of = C - presumably many of these patients were in Africa as it would never = be permitted here - and claims to have saved patients who had contracted = Marburg and Ebola, which is presumably otherwise always fatal. Why the dose needed is somewhat proportional to the severity of the = disease being treated is "discussed in my paper published in 1981, = Titrating to Bowel Tolerance, Anascorbemia, and Acute Induced Scurvy." = He is saying that the massive doses are tolerated in infection- = situations where the C is rapidly depleted by the disease itself - and = that these disease do induce scurvy (oddly the same will happen with too = much C, if taken when it is not needed). One needs to be very careful = with the huge dosage. "It is possible that the bird flu may require even higher doses such as = 150 to 300 grams a day." ...." If massive doses of ascorbate are not = used, they may not be adequate." For many years I've taken about 1 gram per day when healthy, and up to = 10 grams when feeling even slightly ill - using the Pauling suggested = method of dissolving the ascobrate powder in juice. 10 grams will give = anyone "acid stomach". 100 grams seems crazy, but if I do get Bird Flu, = I will try it.=20 Much more economical for anyone without good medical coverage. My last = purchase of vit C powder was online and 500 grams cost about $15, but I = cannot imagine taking this all in a few days as it will normally last = many months. However, as a matter of cost - vs. the Tamiflu - this is = the situation:=20 Tamiflu is often quoted at $100 per dose, which is inaccurate. The best = price I could find from Canada for a "treatment" which is to be taken = over the course of the infection - but NOT as a preventative, was = $202.99 for 30 of the 75 mg caps. Other commercial sites say that it can = be taken as a preventative but I doubt it. Everyone would love to sell = it to you and there really is no shortage online at least. Some recommendations for Avian flu are for the injectible only, which = would be much higher in cost. If you get Avian flu and are treated by = the medical profession without insurance, the cost will likely be a = minimum of $300 per dose or injection, with 7-10 needed, and more likely = much more. It could cost you as much as $5000. But in the typical = obfuscation fashion of the medical profession - no one will actually = quote this cost ahead of time for Avian. Too embarrassing, probably. Costwise, there is no comparison with massive Vit C - and in either case = we are talking about reducing the symptons and/or survival (if this is = as bad as Spanish flu). Neither is a preventative and C has a long = history of reducing symtoms whereas Tamiflu does not, but as Rothwell = metnions, why would all of these scads of medical professionals be so = enthusiastic about it, if it did not work as claimed? To that my answer is "follow the buck." It is not a question of it not = working - it is a question of how superior is it to vitamin C. Few MDs = will want to contradict Roche and miss out on there next free golf = outing to Jamaica. One hopes that some cross-testing is done Tamiflu vs Massive C but that = will never happen here becasue Roche has the many in CDC and the larger = medical profession on a short leash. In places like Asia Africa, where = Roche is less powerful and we can possibly get good numbers which are = not altered by sepcial interests, we may see some real cross-comparison. At any rate, I'm going to order another 500 grams of ascorbate powder = for the flu season (it keeps well if un-needed) ... Along with some = ant-acid ! Jones ------=_NextPart_000_0043_01C5DA05.9EFFC0E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Cathcart's web site = says treatment=20 of the Bird Flu with massive doses of ascorbate would be the same as any = other=20 flu except that the severity of the disease indicates that it may take = unusually=20 massive doses of ascorbic acid orally, or even intravenous sodium = ascorbate.=20 According to him, IF and when the body needs a massive dose, = it will=20 be tolerated by the digestive system. Personally, I find that claim = unlikely=20 based on my experience (~40 years of taking C in large = doses).
 
Even informed lay observers might = consider much of=20 the advice on this site extreme. Whether it works or not is another = issue - but=20 the site is short on actual statistical proof. Most medical professionals in the US would consider these = claims=20 outrageous, but most of them are bonded permanently - as if by feeding = IV tubes,=20 into the mother ship - the largess of the drug companies. Roche = must surely=20 resent this kind of alternative information as a = costly intrusion into=20 their turf. If only 10% of potential patients opted for massive C, = instead=20 of Tamilfu it could cost them billions.
 
Cathcart claims to=20 have treated 30,000 patients with massive dosages of C - presumably many = of=20 these patients were in Africa as it would never be permitted here - and = claims=20 to have saved patients who had contracted Marburg and Ebola, which is = presumably=20 otherwise always fatal.
 
Why the dose needed is somewhat = proportional to the=20 severity of the disease being treated is "discussed in my paper = published in=20 1981, Titrating to Bowel Tolerance, Anascorbemia, and Acute Induced = Scurvy." He=20 is saying that the massive doses are tolerated in infection- situations = where=20 the C is rapidly depleted by the disease itself - and that these disease = do=20 induce scurvy (oddly the same will happen with too much C, if = taken when it=20 is not needed). One needs to be very careful with the huge = dosage.
 
"It is possible that the bird flu may = require even=20 higher doses such as 150 to 300 grams a day."  ...." If = massive doses=20 of ascorbate are not used, they may not be adequate."
 
For many years I've taken about 1 gram = per day when=20 healthy, and up to 10 grams when feeling even slightly  ill - using = the=20 Pauling suggested method of dissolving the ascobrate powder in juice. 10 = grams=20 will give anyone "acid stomach". 100 grams seems crazy, but if I do get = Bird=20 Flu, I will try it.
 
Much more economical for anyone without = good=20 medical coverage. My last purchase of vit C powder was online and 500 = grams cost=20 about $15, but I cannot imagine taking this all in a few days as it will = normally last many months. However, as a=20 matter of cost - vs. the Tamiflu - this is the situation:
 
Tamiflu is often quoted = at $100 per dose,=20 which is inaccurate. The best price I could find from Canada for a=20  "treatment" which is to be taken over the course of the = infection -=20 but NOT as a preventative, was $202.99 for 30 of the 75 mg caps. = Other=20 commercial sites say that it can be taken as a preventative but I doubt = it.=20 Everyone would love to sell it to you and there really is no shortage = online at=20 least.
 
Some recommendations for Avian flu are = for=20 the injectible only, which would be much higher in cost. = If you=20 get Avian flu and are treated by the medical profession without = insurance, the=20 cost will likely be a minimum of $300 per dose or injection, with 7-10 = needed,=20 and more likely much more. It could cost you as much as $5000. But in = the=20 typical obfuscation fashion of the medical profession - no one will = actually=20 quote this cost ahead of time for Avian. Too embarrassing,=20 probably.
 
Costwise, there is no comparison with = massive Vit C=20 - and in either case we are talking about reducing the symptons and/or = survival=20 (if this is as bad as Spanish flu). Neither is a preventative and C has = a long=20 history of reducing symtoms whereas Tamiflu does not, but as Rothwell = metnions,=20 why would all of these scads of medical professionals be so enthusiastic = about=20 it, if it did not work as claimed?
 
To that my answer is "follow the buck." = It is not a=20 question of it not working - it is a question of how superior is it to = vitamin=20 C. Few MDs will want to contradict Roche and miss out on there next free = golf=20 outing to Jamaica.
 
One hopes that some cross-testing is = done Tamiflu=20 vs Massive C but that will never happen here becasue Roche has the many = in CDC=20 and the larger medical profession on a short leash. In places like Asia = Africa,=20 where Roche is less powerful and we can possibly get good numbers which = are not=20 altered by sepcial interests, we may see some real=20 cross-comparison.
 
At any rate, I'm going to order another = 500 grams=20 of ascorbate powder for the flu season (it keeps well if un-needed) = ... =20 Along with some ant-acid !
 
Jones
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0043_01C5DA05.9EFFC0E0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 26 08:45:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9QFigqi001072; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 08:44:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9QFiQUH000872; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 08:44:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 08:44:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] X-Originating-Email: [caliostro1795 hotmail.com] X-Sender: caliostro1795 hotmail.com In-Reply-To: <004601c5da40$4bd5ebc0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Alex Caliostro" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT: Bird Flu and Vitamin C Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 09:43:44 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Oct 2005 15:43:44.0949 (UTC) FILETIME=[0C558650:01C5DA44] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64109 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >From: "Jones Beene" >Cathcart's web site says treatment of the Bird Flu with massive doses of >ascorbate would be the same as any other flu except that the severity of >the disease indicates that it may take unusually massive doses of ascorbic >acid orally, or even intravenous sodium ascorbate. Just like in "Andromeda Strain" it's probably the acute acidosis of the blood which kills the virus. Many don't live long outside the ideal conditions within the organism. There are stories of AIDS cures by heating the blood of the infected individual. >To that my answer is "follow the buck." It is not a question of it not >working - it is a question of how superior is it to vitamin C. Few MDs will >want to contradict Roche and miss out on there next free golf outing to >Jamaica. Your cynicism is showing. The reason doctors follow the drug industries' treatment regimen is liability not payola. I recently asked my doctor if I could reduce the dosage of a certain drug since the symptom has been under control for over a year. His reply was that the drug company said 18 months at a certain dosage level was indicated. >At any rate, I'm going to order another 500 grams of ascorbate powder for >the flu season (it keeps well if un-needed) ... Along with some ant-acid ! Hell, just eat the ants. Formic acid will probably work equally well. _____ -alex _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 26 09:12:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9QGCNq1017339; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 09:12:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9QGCM20017322; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 09:12:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 09:12:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <005b01c5da47$fddcb400$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: OT: Amantadine for Bird Flu Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 09:11:57 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0058_01C5DA0D.51175200" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64110 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0058_01C5DA0D.51175200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Amantadine is a precursor drug of Tamiflu, and is used in the treatment = of Parkinson's syndrome. =20 The Russian doctors who discovered this anti-viral use - have been = treating far more cases of Avian flu than we have, especially as it = moves across Asia, and say that it does treat the most common Asian = strains of Avian flu, including H1N5 which is resistant to Oseltamivir = (Tamilflu). Of all antivirals tested in Russia, it is supposedly the = only effective product. They have completely abandoned Tamiflu there as = ineffective, but hey... they are Russian and not up to our standards, = no? The antiviral activity of amantadine for the prophylaxis of Asian A(2) = influenza in humans appears not to be related to the possible mode of = action of this drug in Parkinson's syndrome. It is just a fluke that it = works at all - and a tribute to Russian ingenuity (and/or diligence = and/or poverty) that it was discovered in time to be of some benefit. The main problem with this conclusion is that Chinese poultry farmers = were given amantadine by the government to give to their flocks several = months ago, which did not halt the spread of it.=20 However, some Asian doctors say off the record that the real reason that = it did not stop the spread of Avian, at the source - is that the drug = was hoarded by the farmers for human use, and not given promptly to the = infected poultry. It is available (possibly without a prescription) from Canada and the = "treatment" is said to be 50 of the 100 mg capsules (~$40 Cn) - 5 per = day after the first sign of infection. Do not take it as a preventative, = as there could be side effects related to dopamine and proper mental = function.=20 Some online sites say that there are literally thousands of people dying = in Northern China and Mongolia from Avian, but then again you can find = almost anything in an online site - including breaking news on = amantadine which the CDC has not verified but is mentioning on their = site: http://www.cdc.gov/flu/professionals/antiviralback.htm. Caveat Lector. Jones ------=_NextPart_000_0058_01C5DA0D.51175200 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Amantadine is a precursor drug of = Tamiflu, and is=20 used in the treatment of Parkinson's syndrome. 

The Russian = doctors=20 who discovered this anti-viral use - have been treating far more cases = of Avian=20 flu than we have, especially as it moves across Asia, and say that it = does treat=20 the most common Asian strains of Avian flu, including H1N5 which is = resistant to=20 Oseltamivir (Tamilflu). Of all antivirals tested in = Russia, it is=20 supposedly the only effective product. They have completely = abandoned=20 Tamiflu there as ineffective, but hey... they are Russian and not up to = our=20 standards, no?

The antiviral activity of amantadine for the = prophylaxis=20 of Asian A(2) influenza in humans appears not to be related to the = possible mode=20 of action of this drug in Parkinson's syndrome. It is just a fluke that = it works=20 at all - and a tribute to Russian ingenuity (and/or diligence=20 and/or poverty) that it was discovered in time to be of some=20 benefit.

The main problem with this conclusion is that = Chinese=20 poultry farmers were given amantadine by the government to give to their = flocks=20 several months ago, which did not halt the spread of it.
 
However, some Asian doctors say off the = record that=20 the real reason that it did not stop the spread of Avian, at the source = - is=20 that the drug was hoarded by the farmers for human use, and not given = promptly=20 to the infected poultry.

It is available (possibly without a=20 prescription) from Canada and the "treatment" is said to be 50 of the = 100 mg=20 capsules (~$40 Cn) - 5 per day after the first sign of infection. Do not = take it=20 as a preventative, as there could be side effects related to dopamine = and proper=20 mental function.
 
Some online sites say that there are = literally=20 thousands of people dying in Northern China and Mongolia from Avian, but = then=20 again you can find almost anything in an online site - including = breaking news=20 on amantadine which the CDC has not verified but is mentioning on their=20 site:
http://ww= w.cdc.gov/flu/professionals/antiviralback.htm.
 
Caveat Lector.
 
Jones
------=_NextPart_000_0058_01C5DA0D.51175200-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 26 09:18:02 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9QGHOuq019900; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 09:17:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9QGHJHc019853; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 09:17:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 09:17:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [64.174.37.158] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes msn.com] X-Sender: mgoldes msn.com In-Reply-To: <004601c5da40$4bd5ebc0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Mark Goldes" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Bird Flu and Vitamin C Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 09:16:51 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Oct 2005 16:16:53.0004 (UTC) FILETIME=[AD4EA4C0:01C5DA48] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64111 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones, vo, I have been taking 12 grams of C daily for many years and following Cathcart by increasing the dose sharply when symptoms of a virus appear. Alacer SuperGram II from VitaCost.com is a source that greatly reduces the probability of stomach discomfort. These green 1 gram pills are easy to take without water. Pauling use to keep C pills in his shirt pocket. In 1964 I hired a former secretary of Paulings and learned of his work with C. I've been taking large doses ever since. My ex was able to cure a severe problem that three doctors including one at Kaiser felt was intractable. Cathcart suggested 80 grams orally in powder form and in about 20 days she was able to reduce the need dramatically. Note that it is important when taking large amounts of C to drop the dosage slowly, otherwise there is a well known reaction that brings back the problem. Most of Cathcart's patients are here in the U.S. He was a prominent orthopedic surgeon who held a patent on a much used hip replacement. All his life to that point he had an ugly scar on his face. A doctor he knew suggested it might be viral. He studied Pauling's work and vitamin C made the scar disappear. He than became an orthomolecular physician. Probably the first in what is now a growing group. His published papers are on the web site. He has tried to publish others, but has the same problem faced by LENR scientists. Mark >From: "Jones Beene" >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com >To: >Subject: Re: Bird Flu and Vitamin C >Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 08:16:52 -0700 > >Cathcart's web site says treatment of the Bird Flu with massive doses of >ascorbate would be the same as any other flu except that the severity of >the disease indicates that it may take unusually massive doses of ascorbic >acid orally, or even intravenous sodium ascorbate. According to him, IF and >when the body needs a massive dose, it will be tolerated by the digestive >system. Personally, I find that claim unlikely based on my experience (~40 >years of taking C in large doses). > >Even informed lay observers might consider much of the advice on this site >extreme. Whether it works or not is another issue - but the site is short >on actual statistical proof. Most medical professionals in the US would >consider these claims outrageous, but most of them are bonded permanently - >as if by feeding IV tubes, into the mother ship - the largess of the drug >companies. Roche must surely resent this kind of alternative information as >a costly intrusion into their turf. If only 10% of potential patients opted >for massive C, instead of Tamilfu it could cost them billions. > >Cathcart claims to have treated 30,000 patients with massive dosages of C - >presumably many of these patients were in Africa as it would never be >permitted here - and claims to have saved patients who had contracted >Marburg and Ebola, which is presumably otherwise always fatal. > >Why the dose needed is somewhat proportional to the severity of the disease >being treated is "discussed in my paper published in 1981, Titrating to >Bowel Tolerance, Anascorbemia, and Acute Induced Scurvy." He is saying that >the massive doses are tolerated in infection- situations where the C is >rapidly depleted by the disease itself - and that these disease do induce >scurvy (oddly the same will happen with too much C, if taken when it is not >needed). One needs to be very careful with the huge dosage. > >"It is possible that the bird flu may require even higher doses such as 150 >to 300 grams a day." ...." If massive doses of ascorbate are not used, >they may not be adequate." > >For many years I've taken about 1 gram per day when healthy, and up to 10 >grams when feeling even slightly ill - using the Pauling suggested method >of dissolving the ascobrate powder in juice. 10 grams will give anyone >"acid stomach". 100 grams seems crazy, but if I do get Bird Flu, I will try >it. > >Much more economical for anyone without good medical coverage. My last >purchase of vit C powder was online and 500 grams cost about $15, but I >cannot imagine taking this all in a few days as it will normally last many >months. However, as a matter of cost - vs. the Tamiflu - this is the >situation: > >Tamiflu is often quoted at $100 per dose, which is inaccurate. The best >price I could find from Canada for a "treatment" which is to be taken over >the course of the infection - but NOT as a preventative, was $202.99 for 30 >of the 75 mg caps. Other commercial sites say that it can be taken as a >preventative but I doubt it. Everyone would love to sell it to you and >there really is no shortage online at least. > >Some recommendations for Avian flu are for the injectible only, which would >be much higher in cost. If you get Avian flu and are treated by the medical >profession without insurance, the cost will likely be a minimum of $300 per >dose or injection, with 7-10 needed, and more likely much more. It could >cost you as much as $5000. But in the typical obfuscation fashion of the >medical profession - no one will actually quote this cost ahead of time for >Avian. Too embarrassing, probably. > >Costwise, there is no comparison with massive Vit C - and in either case we >are talking about reducing the symptons and/or survival (if this is as bad >as Spanish flu). Neither is a preventative and C has a long history of >reducing symtoms whereas Tamiflu does not, but as Rothwell metnions, why >would all of these scads of medical professionals be so enthusiastic about >it, if it did not work as claimed? > >To that my answer is "follow the buck." It is not a question of it not >working - it is a question of how superior is it to vitamin C. Few MDs will >want to contradict Roche and miss out on there next free golf outing to >Jamaica. > >One hopes that some cross-testing is done Tamiflu vs Massive C but that >will never happen here becasue Roche has the many in CDC and the larger >medical profession on a short leash. In places like Asia Africa, where >Roche is less powerful and we can possibly get good numbers which are not >altered by sepcial interests, we may see some real cross-comparison. > >At any rate, I'm going to order another 500 grams of ascorbate powder for >the flu season (it keeps well if un-needed) ... Along with some ant-acid ! > >Jones > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 26 09:41:02 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9QGeRqp031321; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 09:40:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9QGePsT031289; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 09:40:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 09:40:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] X-Originating-Email: [caliostro1795 hotmail.com] X-Sender: caliostro1795 hotmail.com In-Reply-To: From: "Alex Caliostro" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT: Bird Flu and Vitamin C Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 10:40:05 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Oct 2005 16:40:05.0539 (UTC) FILETIME=[EB529F30:01C5DA4B] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64112 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >From: "Mark Goldes" >I have been taking 12 grams of C daily for many years and following >Cathcart by increasing the dose sharply when symptoms of a virus appear. You should also be taking other antioxidants. For example, selenium deficiency in the soil has been shown to correlate with certain diseases. Besides, the Ant-Ox cocktail is considered more effective than massive dosages of ascorbic acid alone. _____ -alex _________________________________________________________________ Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 26 09:50:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9QGo52L004336; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 09:50:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9QGo3En004313; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 09:50:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 09:50:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [64.174.37.158] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes msn.com] X-Sender: mgoldes msn.com In-Reply-To: From: "Mark Goldes" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT: Bird Flu and Vitamin C Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 09:49:40 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Oct 2005 16:49:41.0342 (UTC) FILETIME=[42872FE0:01C5DA4D] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64113 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I take a variety of supplements starting with the list Pauling used himself provided in How to Live Longer and Feel Better. You are correct that large does of C should not be taken without other necessary vitamins as well as replacements for the trace minerals that C washes out of the system. Mark >From: "Alex Caliostro" >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com >To: vortex-l eskimo.com >Subject: Re: OT: Bird Flu and Vitamin C >Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 10:40:05 -0600 > >>From: "Mark Goldes" > >>I have been taking 12 grams of C daily for many years and following >>Cathcart by increasing the dose sharply when symptoms of a virus appear. > >You should also be taking other antioxidants. For example, selenium >deficiency in the soil has been shown to correlate with certain diseases. >Besides, the Ant-Ox cocktail is considered more effective than massive >dosages of ascorbic acid alone. > >_____ >-alex > >_________________________________________________________________ >Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! >http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 26 09:54:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9QGsGLa006804; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 09:54:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9QGsFlt006772; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 09:54:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 09:54:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] X-Originating-Email: [caliostro1795 hotmail.com] X-Sender: caliostro1795 hotmail.com In-Reply-To: From: "Alex Caliostro" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT: Bird Flu and Vitamin C Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 10:53:54 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Oct 2005 16:53:55.0146 (UTC) FILETIME=[D9CE9AA0:01C5DA4D] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64114 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: "Mark Goldes" >I take a variety of supplements starting with the list Pauling used himself >provided in How to Live Longer and Feel Better. You are correct that large >does of C should not be taken without other necessary vitamins as well as >replacements for the trace minerals that C washes out of the system. I'm sorry, I meant to attach the following: http://www.thenutritionreporter.com/selenium.html Just gander google for "selenium soil deficiency". I doubt many Vorts take selenium supplements. _____ -alex _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 26 10:45:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9QHigTE032659; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 10:44:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9QHifal032631; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 10:44:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 10:44:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [64.174.37.158] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes msn.com] X-Sender: mgoldes msn.com In-Reply-To: From: "Mark Goldes" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT: Bird Flu and Vitamin C Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 10:44:14 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Oct 2005 17:44:15.0545 (UTC) FILETIME=[E21AEA90:01C5DA54] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64115 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Alex, I believe Selinium was included in the list Pauling published. Mark >From: "Alex Caliostro" >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com >To: vortex-l eskimo.com >Subject: Re: OT: Bird Flu and Vitamin C >Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 10:53:54 -0600 > >From: "Mark Goldes" > >>I take a variety of supplements starting with the list Pauling used >>himself provided in How to Live Longer and Feel Better. You are correct >>that large does of C should not be taken without other necessary vitamins >>as well as replacements for the trace minerals that C washes out of the >>system. > >I'm sorry, I meant to attach the following: > >http://www.thenutritionreporter.com/selenium.html > >Just gander google for "selenium soil deficiency". I doubt many Vorts take >selenium supplements. > >_____ >-alex > >_________________________________________________________________ >Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! >http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 26 11:38:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9QIbZxH027841; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 11:37:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9QIbXYa027826; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 11:37:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 11:37:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <435FCCCF.1020109 pobox.com> Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 14:37:03 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.10) Gecko/20050719 Fedora/1.7.10-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT: Bird flu resistant to Tamiflu References: <00f401c5d99e$77d2a1c0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051025161050.05937cd0@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20051025161050.05937cd0 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64116 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > > By the way, if you are in the mood to panic, here is a worst-case > scenario described in an imaginary future blog, published in Nature: > > http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v435/n7041/full/435400a.html > > QUOTE: > > "27 February 2006 Everyone for themselves > > I watch the scenes of a society descending into chaos from the > relative security of my mother's isolated home. Red tail lights snake > to the horizon as people pour out of the cities. Half the doctors > haven't turned up for work; many are either ill, or caring for loved > ones. . . ." Not going to happen. Mortality rate of 50% sounds horrible until you realize the transmissibility of this strain is apparently very low. When it mutates, and finally learns to jump from person to person, it'll also very likely radiate into a number of strains, some of which will be far less lethal. As a rule, a strain that doesn't kill its victim right away, and that even lets the victim get up and start walking around again, is likely to tear through a population much faster than a strain that rapidly kills most of the people who catch it. (It's just like any other parasite: Rapidly killing the host is a poor strategy.) And infection with one strain will likely provide immunity to closely related strains. Thus, the common pattern of flu bugs: They start out looking extremely lethal, but by the time they spread across half the world, they have mysteriously gotten "tired" and are killing a much lower percentage of those who catch them. It's 'cause the flu that spreads fastest is not the same strain as the one that kills half its victims. But then, what about that 1918 flu? Why was it so deadly? Well, it was a hemorrhagic disease -- alveolar hemorrhage was one thing it caused, and that's a big problem for the victim. It also caused a raging fever, and it caused a wicked bad headache. And aspirin was widely available, and was the new "wonder" drug; I've heard any number of times (mostly from my dad) about how aspirin was considered a "miracle" drug when it first came out. What do you do for a high fever and a bad headache and other flu symptoms? Take aspirin, of course! If it's really bad, take a lot of it. And if it's a hemorrhagic virus, like the 1918 flu, you probably kill yourself in the process, because aspirin is also a powerful anticoagulant ... but that wasn't known back in 1918. (I have seen this claimed as one of the causes of the high mortality rate of the 1918 flu. I haven't seen any statistics to back it up, but none the less I believe it; it makes excellent sense.) Nowadays we mostly get fed Tyenol for flu symptoms which, unlike aspirin, is not an anticoagulant; a resurgence of the 1918 flu might be a lot less deadly today, in part because of that. Now, time for an anecdote: My father lived through the 1918 flu, in Philadelphia; he remembered the coffins stacked by the sides of the streets. Everyone in his family caught it (or so he said). His family doctor supposedly didn't lose a single patient to the flu, however, and nobody in my dad's family died of it. What was his miraculous treatment? Very simple, really: No aspirin, no new-fangled garbage from the drug companies at all, in fact. The doctor figured flu couldn't stand alchohol, and told everybody to get drunk as soon as they contracted the flu, and stay drunk until they got over it. Start the whiskey right away; for little kids, they gave it to them on teaspoons; the adults presumably chugged it from glasses. Dunno if it helped, but it apparently at least didn't make things much worse than they already were. (By the way, many years ago I tried the "booze cure" myself once or twice for flu, and found it seemed to make _my_ symptoms get a lot worse, very fast. I gave up on it after that...) > > - Jed > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 26 12:27:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9QJQqtJ029394; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 12:27:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9QJQoU1029367; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 12:26:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 12:26:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051026152521.0403deb0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 15:26:16 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Nature giving an inch? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64117 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The Google Alerts program brought me the following link: http://www.nature.com/news/2005/051024/full/4371224a.html I am not a subscriber to nature.com, so I do not know what the article says, but Google brought me a partial quote: "Physics: Far from the frontier Nature.com (subscription) - London,England,UK ... problem with reports of tabletop fusion is that for most scientists they evoke memories of the notorious, and now largely discredited, 'cold fusion' claim made ... " Note that it says: "now largely discredited . . ." Perhaps it is my imagination, but I detect a slight change in emphasis. Unfortunately, at this rate it will take a hundred years for Nature to admit its mistake. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 26 13:22:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9QKLtxQ005927; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 13:22:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9QKLrHC005900; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 13:21:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 13:21:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] X-Originating-Email: [caliostro1795 hotmail.com] X-Sender: caliostro1795 hotmail.com In-Reply-To: <410-2200510326141227690 earthlink.net> From: "Alex Caliostro" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Bubble Wrap Insulation & Plastic Netting Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 14:21:24 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Oct 2005 20:21:24.0309 (UTC) FILETIME=[D6162050:01C5DA6A] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64118 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >From: "Frederick Sparber" >With natural gas selling at $1.45 per therm and going to $2.00 by next >week, this might >be a good investment for temporary "thermo-pane" solar heat, and >insulation. Well, Fred, at two bucks a therm, it's time to say "aw shucks". http://www.americasheat.com/ At $2.50 a bushel (weighing 56 pounds) a corn-fired furnace is lookin' mighty attractive. At 7,000 Btu per pound and 60% efficiency the cost looks like about $1.06 per therm. It's just that I remember those blisters I used to get from shelling corn. But the cobs save on paper! _____ -alex _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 26 13:30:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9QKU8aO009352; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 13:30:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9QKU6CM009327; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 13:30:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 13:30:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00fb01c5da6b$fe125fa0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <00f401c5d99e$77d2a1c0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051025161050.05937cd0@pop.mindspring.com> <435FCCCF.1020109@pobox.com> Subject: Re: OT: Bird flu resistant to Tamiflu Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 13:29:40 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00F8_01C5DA31.514AB3B0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64119 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00F8_01C5DA31.514AB3B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Stephen,=20 > Now, time for an anecdote: My father lived through the 1918 flu, in=20 > Philadelphia; he remembered the coffins stacked by the sides of the=20 > streets.... Very simple, really: No aspirin... The doctor figured = flu=20 > couldn't stand alchohol, and told everybody to get drunk as soon as = they=20 > contracted the flu, and stay drunk until they got over it....Dunno if = it helped, but=20 > it apparently at least didn't make things much worse than they already = were. When I was living in Mexico, during flu season the locals swear by the = power of the blue Agave. It is a cactus which looks a bit like an aloe = vera plant on steroids.=20 You may know it better, when distilled as tequila, but the kind normally = sold here is not from the blue agave (although it is available at a = premium price). US branded Cuervo could not even be sold legally in = Mexico as tequila.=20 South of the border, they claim that Mexico was spared the ravages of = 1918 because of tequila (or pulque which is the undistilled juice), and = also (mainly) the common vegatable cactus: Nopalitos (Nopales). You eat = nopales all day when sick, fried with cilantro and passillas and then = have a nightcap of a fine anejo... and you survive with a smile on your = face. In a recent issue of Daily Dose, the e-letter written by William C = Douglass, M.D. he calls certain alcohols "liquid medicine." He says = "single-malt Scotches are actually richer in a powerful, = cancer-fighting antioxidant called ellagic acid than red wine." The = French swear by both red wine and Calvados, an apple-brandy - and in = Eastern Europe it is Slivovitz, or something like that - a plum brandy. Researchers in Mexico tested the toxin-inhibiting effects of different = species of cactus and found all agave extracts significantly reduced the = growth of bacteria, and the production of toxins by the bacteria which = were not killed - but the blue agave is better (even without any = fermentation) and nopales are also good. And the lime and salt often = taken with the alcohol versions make them better than any gargle for = killing throat and repiratory bacteria. So, with or without the "kick", = the blue agave is the Latino Tamiflu substitute (but not much cheaper, = if it is a find anejo). Yes I know that bacteria and viri are different = and killing one does not guarantee the other - but who am I to argue = with the spirit of Quetzalcoatl and his natural gift to the people. The Aztecs, Toltecs and Mayas based most of their medicine system around = the cactus- not necessarily the booze version, but I suppose if you are = going to spend most of the day in sacrificial heart removal, the = fermented version deadens the pain - both the priests and the victims. Jones ------=_NextPart_000_00F8_01C5DA31.514AB3B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Stephen,=20

> Now, time for an anecdote:  My father lived through = the 1918=20 flu, in
> Philadelphia; he remembered the coffins stacked by the = sides of=20 the
> streets.... Very simple, really:  No aspirin...  = The=20 doctor figured flu
> couldn't stand alchohol, and told everybody = to get=20 drunk as soon as they
> contracted the flu, and stay drunk until = they got=20 over it....Dunno if it helped, but
> it apparently at least = didn't make=20 things much worse than they already were.


When I was living = in=20 Mexico, during flu season the locals swear by the power of the blue = Agave. It is=20 a cactus which looks a bit like an aloe vera plant on steroids. =

You may=20 know it better, when distilled as tequila, but the kind normally sold = here is=20 not from the blue agave (although it is available at a premium price). = US=20 branded Cuervo could not even be sold legally in Mexico as tequila.=20

South of the border, they claim that Mexico was spared the = ravages of=20 1918 because of tequila (or pulque which is the undistilled juice), and = also=20 (mainly) the common vegatable cactus: Nopalitos (Nopales). You eat = nopales all=20 day when sick, fried with cilantro and passillas and then have a = nightcap of a=20 fine anejo... and you survive with a smile on your face.

In a = recent=20 issue of Daily Dose, the e-letter written by William C Douglass, M.D. he = calls=20 certain alcohols "liquid medicine." He says "single-malt Scotches are=20 actually  richer in a powerful, cancer-fighting antioxidant called = ellagic=20 acid than red wine." The French swear by both red wine and Calvados, an=20 apple-brandy - and in Eastern Europe it is Slivovitz, or something = like=20 that - a plum brandy.

Researchers in Mexico tested the = toxin-inhibiting=20 effects of different species of cactus and found all agave extracts=20 significantly reduced the growth of bacteria, and the production of = toxins by=20 the bacteria which were not killed - but the blue agave = is better=20 (even without any fermentation) and nopales are also good. And the lime = and salt=20 often taken with the alcohol versions make them better than any gargle = for=20 killing throat and repiratory bacteria. So, with or without the "kick", = the blue=20 agave is the Latino Tamiflu substitute (but not much cheaper, if it is a = find=20 anejo). Yes I know that bacteria and viri are different and killing one = does not=20 guarantee the other - but who am I to argue with the spirit = of Quetzalcoatl=20 and his natural gift to the people.

The Aztecs, Toltecs and=20 Mayas based most of their medicine system around the cactus- not=20 necessarily the booze version, but I suppose if you are going to spend = most of=20 the day in sacrificial heart removal, the fermented version deadens the = pain -=20 both the priests and the victims.

Jones ------=_NextPart_000_00F8_01C5DA31.514AB3B0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 26 13:35:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9QKYhTk011642; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 13:34:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9QKYfOb011610; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 13:34:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 13:34:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <4eo5r2$qo6v8r mxip04a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.97,254,1125892800"; d="scan'208"; a="897809691:sNHT20533782" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: OrionWorks Organization: OrionWorks To: CC: Subject: Re: Nature giving an inch? Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 15:34:18 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <5DHOeC.A.W1C.gh-XDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64120 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed sez: > The Google Alerts program brought me the following link: > > http://www.nature.com/news/2005/051024/full/4371224a.html > > I am not a subscriber to nature.com, so I do not know what > the article says, but Google brought me a partial quote: > > "Physics: Far from the frontier > > Nature.com (subscription) - London,England,UK > > ... problem with reports of tabletop fusion is that for most > scientists they evoke memories of the notorious, and now largely > discredited, 'cold fusion' claim made ... " > > Note that it says: "now largely discredited . . ." Perhaps it > is my imagination, but I detect a slight change in emphasis. > Unfortunately, at this rate it will take a hundred years for > Nature to admit its mistake. > > - Jed It reminds me of the revision done in the inter-galactic encyclopedia in DA's Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy, where Earth's status had been recently reclassified from "Harmless" to "Mostly harmless." Arthur Dent wasn't impressed with the revision. ...and neither am I impressed with Nature's latest revision. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 26 14:30:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9QLUECL012714; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 14:30:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9QLUDd5012700; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 14:30:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 14:30:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=ix.netcom.com; b=sFnaet6eZq1wB3DurjMWz51pOZjsesb+oHx/F6PFVQ6fr4DVkwxElJIr4+NHbpbO; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200510326213112480 ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.1.47.0 (Windows) From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Nature giving an inch? Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 14:31:12 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d879664a784d4d4f55382b057804d7710de925a8e63659b694350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 216.175.101.81 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64121 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Oct 26, 2005 Vortex, I used to subscribe to Nature. I still receive their Nature Alerts when the next issue comes out. It gives a brief sentence on their various topics covered. The article in question discusses the activity of Putterman and his experiments in sonoluminescence at UCLA. Nothing new. -ak- > [Original Message] > From: Jed Rothwell > To: > Date: 10/26/2005 12:27:07 PM > Subject: Nature giving an inch? > > The Google Alerts program brought me the following link: > > http://www.nature.com/news/2005/051024/full/4371224a.html > > I am not a subscriber to nature.com, so I do not know what the article > says, but Google brought me a partial quote: > > "Physics: Far from the frontier > > Nature.com (subscription) - London,England,UK > > ... problem with reports of tabletop fusion is that for most scientists > they evoke memories of the notorious, and now largely discredited, 'cold > fusion' claim made ... " > > Note that it says: "now largely discredited . . ." Perhaps it is my > imagination, but I detect a slight change in emphasis. Unfortunately, at > this rate it will take a hundred years for Nature to admit its mistake. > > - Jed > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 26 14:49:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9QLn2si022978; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 14:49:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9QLmwSo022905; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 14:48:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 14:48:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051026174818.056d6a20 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 17:48:25 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Need assistance with Schwinger paper Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_26541218==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64123 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_26541218==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I have converted the following paper from an image format to Microsoft Word format: Schwinger, J. Nuclear Energy in an Atomic Lattice. in The First Annual Conference on Cold Fusion. 1990. University of Utah Research Park, Salt Lake City, Utah: National Cold Fusion Institute. Before I upload this to LENR-CANR.org, I would appreciate it if someone who understands theory would proofread the text. This level of nuclear theory is literally all Greek to me, and for that matter, I am not even confident that I have selected the correct Greek letters, what with those Hamiltonian h-bars on the rampage. Also, there are several minus signs that I suspect should be "~" (approximate), but I am not sure. Please contact me if you understand these matters and would be willing to take some time to examine this paper. For most of the equations, I threw in the towel (or as the Japanese say, "pitched the spoon") and simply inserted scanned images of the equations. If you would like to see this done right, you are welcome to add the equations using the equation editor. - Jed --=====================_26541218==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" I have converted the following paper from an image format to Microsoft Word format:

Schwinger, J. Nuclear Energy in an Atomic Lattice. in The First Annual Conference on Cold Fusion. 1990. University of Utah Research Park, Salt Lake City, Utah: National Cold Fusion Institute.

Before I upload this to LENR-CANR.org, I would appreciate it if someone who understands theory would proofread the text. This level of nuclear theory is literally all Greek to me, and for that matter, I am not even confident that I have selected the correct Greek letters, what with those Hamiltonian h-bars on the rampage. Also, there are several minus signs that I suspect should be "~" (approximate), but I am not sure.

Please contact me if you understand these matters and would be willing to take some time to examine this paper. For most of the equations, I threw in the towel (or as the Japanese say, "pitched the spoon") and simply inserted scanned images of the equations. If you would like to see this done right, you are welcome to add the equations using the equation editor.

- Jed
--=====================_26541218==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 26 15:03:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9QM06b3028102; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 15:03:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9QLW7WZ013707; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 14:32:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 14:32:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=kPdCgVN/PhQyhcClup36N5A32E0yMz+ppMkU902qzhSWP2dDEo4E4l5ypKxHFGi9; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200510326203115480 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Bubble Wrap Insulation & Plastic Netting Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 15:31:15 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9405a5082faadfab1e55c5f201775f2806d350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.159.113 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64122 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The trouble with corn stoves is that many town-city codes have no-burn days (the fines can be as high as $300.00) and the insurance rates go through the roof. IOW, you're up the creek. FJS > [Original Message] > From: Alex Caliostro > To: > Date: 10/26/05 3:22:10 PM > Subject: Re: Bubble Wrap Insulation & Plastic Netting > > >From: "Frederick Sparber" > > >With natural gas selling at $1.45 per therm and going to $2.00 by next > >week, this might > >be a good investment for temporary "thermo-pane" solar heat, and > >insulation. > > Well, Fred, at two bucks a therm, it's time to say "aw shucks". > > http://www.americasheat.com/ > > At $2.50 a bushel (weighing 56 pounds) a corn-fired furnace is lookin' > mighty attractive. At 7,000 Btu per pound and 60% efficiency the cost looks > like about $1.06 per therm. > > It's just that I remember those blisters I used to get from shelling corn. > But the cobs save on paper! > > _____ > -alex > > _________________________________________________________________ > FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now! > http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 26 15:06:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9QM5IT6031330; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 15:05:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9QM5Gu7031314; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 15:05:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 15:05:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <4ck04t$1joqgue mxip12a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.97,255,1125892800"; d="scan'208"; a="1737311182:sNHT39113072" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: OrionWorks Organization: OrionWorks To: CC: Subject: OT: "pitched the spoon" Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 17:04:47 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64124 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed sez: > ...I threw in the towel (or as the Japanese say, > "pitched the spoon") >- Jed Don't leave me dangling, Jed! What is the "spoon" reference in regards to? I suspect my personal interpretation of a coach tossing a wooden spoon into a sumo wresting match to call it quits isn't correct. ;-) I'm sure the historian within you knows the details. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 26 15:32:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9QMVceh010198; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 15:31:53 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9QMVa6s010182; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 15:31:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 15:31:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051026181403.03801620 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 18:31:07 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: OT: "pitched the spoon" In-Reply-To: <4ck04t$1joqgue mxip12a.cluster1.charter.net> References: <4ck04t$1joqgue mxip12a.cluster1.charter.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <89-5pC.A.CfC.IPAYDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64125 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: OrionWorks wrote: >Don't leave me dangling, Jed! What is the "spoon" reference in regards to? Now that you mention it, I wonder what "throw in the towel" refers to? The Japanese expression is similar in meaning, but grimmer. In Japanese it is, "saji wo nageru." A saji, or spoon, was seldom used at the dining table in the old days. It was more often used by a doctor to give a patient medicine. When the doctor was confronted with a patient in a hopeless condition, and he could do nothing more, he would "toss away the spoon." It has come to mean "give up" or "stop trying to deal with a hopeless mess." This sort of thing appeals to my morbid sense of humor, along with Charles Addams cartoons, viz. "Deathray fiddlesticks. It's not even slowing them down." - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 26 15:51:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9QMnqdC017965; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 15:50:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9QMno0w017929; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 15:49:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 15:49:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: Bubble Wrap Insulation & Plastic Netting Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 17:49:28 -0500 Message-ID: <000001c5da7f$86739270$5c5e10ac eDentsply.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j9QMnUaN017728 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64126 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Try this... http://www.pinnaclestove.com/ -john -----Original Message----- From: Alex Caliostro [mailto:caliostro1795 hotmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2005 3:21 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Bubble Wrap Insulation & Plastic Netting >From: "Frederick Sparber" >With natural gas selling at $1.45 per therm and going to $2.00 by next >week, this might >be a good investment for temporary "thermo-pane" solar heat, and >insulation. Well, Fred, at two bucks a therm, it's time to say "aw shucks". http://www.americasheat.com/ At $2.50 a bushel (weighing 56 pounds) a corn-fired furnace is lookin' mighty attractive. At 7,000 Btu per pound and 60% efficiency the cost looks like about $1.06 per therm. It's just that I remember those blisters I used to get from shelling corn. But the cobs save on paper! _____ -alex _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar - get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 26 15:51:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9QMo2RE018073; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 15:50:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9QMnrI1017974; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 15:49:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 15:49:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: OT: The RumsFlu strike hard Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 17:49:28 -0500 Message-ID: <000101c5da7f$86da1c70$5c5e10ac eDentsply.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: <20051026.080227.2865.11126 webmail22.nyc.untd.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j9QMnUue017734 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64127 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: It's not about enough, it's about more. Greed is good, greed works. It drives things. It pushes things forward. Capitalism is self limiting by simple market economics and pack mentality (destroy the weak, perpetually challenge the leader). Democracy is but an ideal (the champion of democracy in the world is a republic, recite the pledge of allegiance if think otherwise). I am more frightened by those who try to control capitalism. Plenty examples of those who tried and failed. It's pure hubris for anyone to think they know what is best for everyone. My favorite movie quote... "Larry, how much stuff do you need to be happy?" "I don't know Bob, how much stuff is there?" -john -----Original Message----- From: gesrebspar juno.com [mailto:gesrebspar@juno.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2005 10:02 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT: The RumsFlu strike hard Vortexians- I some times wonder- How much money would be enough for the rich and greedy? The average person of today can work is whole live and justmake a million dollars if he never misses a day of work. Yet the rich and greedy can make several million in one year and still be hungary for more millions. A some point the rich need to figure out that they can not have it all and have Demoracy and capitalism. Capitalism needs controls to work and Demoracy needs all people to share. _ges- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 26 16:02:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9QN1KcD023270; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 16:01:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9QN1Hhg023237; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 16:01:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 16:01:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20051026154452.0296e248 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 15:57:34 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: Nature giving an inch? In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20051026152521.0403deb0 pop.mindspring.com> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051026152521.0403deb0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64128 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed, I watch the conventional media with both a telescope and a microscope on this subject matter. I agree with you. And I think it's more than an inch. "Largely discredited" literally means there is some credit. You are seeing the mechanisms of mass media and control of public opinion at work. Possibly hedging their bets. Trying to make subtle shifts. Possibly trying to change their image over time. Maybe your work is starting to pay off. Maybe the work of the cf researchers worldwide is starting to pay off. Now...for a titillating mini-scoop: An unnamed government source told me a few weeks ago that another government physicist was able to speak directly to some top editors at Nature about a few matters in physics. Among them, he mentioned CF. Word is, and this, granted, is third-hand, that their ears were perked and they were curious. By the way, have you seen the New Energy Times mascot? Porksie the flying pig? http://newenergytimes.com/Images/Porksie.jpg Cheers, Steve At 12:26 PM 10/26/2005, you wrote: >The Google Alerts program brought me the following link: > >http://www.nature.com/news/2005/051024/full/4371224a.html > >I am not a subscriber to nature.com, so I do not know what the article >says, but Google brought me a partial quote: > >"Physics: Far from the frontier > >Nature.com (subscription) - London,England,UK > >... problem with reports of tabletop fusion is that for most scientists >they evoke memories of the notorious, and now largely discredited, 'cold >fusion' claim made ... " > >Note that it says: "now largely discredited . . ." Perhaps it is my >imagination, but I detect a slight change in emphasis. Unfortunately, at >this rate it will take a hundred years for Nature to admit its mistake. > >- Jed > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 26 16:18:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9QNHiQP032333; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 16:17:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9QNHc0V032266; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 16:17:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 16:17:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=Vjbuwkz5EhyKDD7L/N08RZFchj7dIJE/MdSUfPfteYjXcyThTjYsZYKdp8alsosV; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200510326221659480 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Bubble Wrap Insulation & Plastic Netting Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 17:16:59 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94049e5f92fb9fca9b3d91834979addd593350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.58 Resent-Message-ID: <6_KDu.A.23H.P6AYDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64129 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Alex Caliostro wrote: > > It's just that I remember those blisters I used to get from shelling corn. > But the cobs save on paper! > Aw shucks Alex, I did my share of that too. The husking tool was a 20 penny spike through a leather loop on the middle finger. Great time for philosophical discussion as you labored through the piles of corn shucks (sometimes snow covered) brought in from the field. The stalks after being stripped of leaves and outer layers by the cattle as roughage were a nuisance unless run through a chopper for feed or bedding offer as much biomass energy as the shelled corn. Now that old Bessie is producing 4 to 5 gallons per day and sleeping on an air mattress while the stalks are rotting in the field.... :-) BTW, my dad used to bring home sacks of cobs and soak them in used crankcase oil to fuel the stoves.In retrospect I cringe at the thought of how much crankcase oil Lead we inhaled from the smoke. Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Alex Caliostro wrote:
>
> It's just that I remember those blisters I used to get from shelling
corn.
> But the cobs save on paper!
>
Aw shucks Alex, I did my share of that too.
 
The husking  tool was a 20 penny spike through a leather
loop on the middle finger. Great time for philosophical discussion
as you labored through the piles of corn shucks (sometimes snow covered)
brought in from the field.
The stalks after being stripped of leaves and outer layers by the cattle
as roughage were a nuisance unless run through a chopper for feed or
bedding offer as much biomass energy as the shelled corn.
 
Now that old Bessie is producing 4 to 5 gallons per day and sleeping
on an air mattress while the stalks are rotting in the field....   :-)
 
BTW, my dad used to bring home sacks of cobs and soak them in
used crankcase oil to fuel the stoves.In retrospect  I cringe at the thought of
how much crankcase oil Lead we inhaled from the smoke.
 
Fred
 
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 26 17:19:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9R0JCrr002330; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 17:19:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9R0JAUb002318; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 17:19:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 17:19:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [68.158.37.30] X-Originating-Email: [caliostro1795 hotmail.com] X-Sender: caliostro1795 hotmail.com In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20051026181403.03801620 pop.mindspring.com> From: "Alex Caliostro" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT: "pitched the spoon" Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 18:18:53 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Oct 2005 00:18:53.0448 (UTC) FILETIME=[033C3080:01C5DA8C] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64130 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >From: Jed > >Now that you mention it, I wonder what "throw in the towel" refers to? Obviously you have not seen "Rocky". Throwing in the towel in boxing is concession of defeat. The ceceeding side literally tossed the towel into the ring. _____ -alex _________________________________________________________________ Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 26 17:22:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9R0LbDM004084; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 17:21:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9R0LY0K004042; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 17:21:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 17:21:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=4pcfN7EIHfZ99CuFS0b2rVxyvldqHtAtk3UJFi8icCrV31CVXYx/Zz2EYWnhdNZjdQTRjcLQCUguVmuFdLguE8DPerAscGTOSpIGGNG66Yviljma3XLsFlS747htgvMOZtNxyrhilr9QUn52xOUAVyQQRsDozBHBmoQbNMP4qzA= ; Message-ID: <20051027002054.32176.qmail web51702.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 17:20:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Terry Blanton Subject: RE: Bubble Wrap Insulation & Plastic Netting To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <000001c5da7f$86739270$5c5e10ac eDentsply.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1600473849-1130372454=:29993" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64131 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-1600473849-1130372454=:29993 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I'll bet the odor is magnificent! Thanks, John, _____ -alex John Steck wrote: Try this... http://www.pinnaclestove.com/ -john --------------------------------- Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. --0-1600473849-1130372454=:29993 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
I'll bet the odor is magnificent!
 
Thanks, John,
 
_____
-alex

John Steck <johnsteck tetrahelix.com> wrote:
Try this...
http://www.pinnaclestove.com/

-john

Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. --0-1600473849-1130372454=:29993-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 26 17:36:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9R0Zi1F009839; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 17:35:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9R0Zg79009806; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 17:35:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 17:35:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20051027003519928.E2BB7B400082 mwinf3013.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20051027003522.0097bdac pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 01:35:22 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Nature giving an inch? Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64132 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 03:57 pm 26/10/2005 -0700, you wrote: > By the way, have you seen the New Energy Times mascot? Porksie the flying pig? > > http://newenergytimes.com/Images/Porksie.jpg > > Cheers, > > Steve As the originator of the Dr Pork sobriquet (according to the Mail Archives, see, http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l eskimo.com/msg06097.html) I must congratulate whoever on the no mean feat of getting this heavier than air creature to fly. On the other hand, maybe the pig is so full of hot air that it is actually a balloon and the wings are merely for decoration. 8-) Cheers, Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 26 18:00:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9R0xmI9022130; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 18:00:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9R0xhvv022087; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 17:59:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 17:59:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=vnzID4QfiFla6HHeaxvl3hQkXEg6K2YyqhETMntCwCLPlYfTr4OjffISx61ofkXisrWTeQreSi2Gs0hwFbgkwdGZYfgI2wIEpHdZGe4myn+79TMUfgyFrKPlntBqlDC827EM1BguQ0yn0BKMEsYST0sS2M6JWalQ/eshVFnyLdw= ; Message-ID: <20051027005926.78333.qmail web51712.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 17:59:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Terry Blanton Subject: unsubscribe To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-2320524-1130374765=:78226" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64133 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-2320524-1130374765=:78226 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --------------------------------- Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. --0-2320524-1130374765=:78226 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. --0-2320524-1130374765=:78226-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 26 18:02:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9R12CAE024159; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 18:02:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9R129ct024132; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 18:02:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 18:02:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [65.83.206.92] X-Originating-Email: [caliostro1795 hotmail.com] X-Sender: caliostro1795 hotmail.com From: "Alex Caliostro" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: unsubscribe Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 19:01:51 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Oct 2005 01:01:51.0943 (UTC) FILETIME=[04234D70:01C5DA92] Resent-Message-ID: <9wJWOB.A.74F.RcCYDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64134 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 26 18:07:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9R16s9n026744; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 18:07:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9R16rYu026734; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 18:06:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 18:06:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003601c5da92$aacdc6a0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <2.2.32.20051027003522.0097bdac pop.freeserve.net> Subject: Re: Nature giving an inch? Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 18:06:30 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0033_01C5DA57.FE03A9B0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64135 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0033_01C5DA57.FE03A9B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable .... the New Energy Times mascot? Porksie the flying pig? Hah... the "icon of improbability"? http://www.flying-pig.co.uk/pagesv/pig.htm =20 > FG: I must congratulate whoever on the no mean feat of getting this=20 > heavier than air creature to fly.=20 Does "no mean feat" have "average toes"... ? Its pork-fect...and not as clich=E9, or as d=E9class=E9, as the "lead = balloon" but yet encapsulating many cloven phat-dreams, and with a = near-Wiki entry to boot: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Pig_Gig Miracles do happen... and if a pig can fly, so can I ? http://www.rapidintellect.com/pf0010.htm Jones I believe that pigs can fly And I know the reason why If you work hard and give it a go Miracles can happen as the wind can blow. =20 So now you know that pigs do fly And now you know the reasons why On your trip through life, remember this tale Fly with the pigs!....and you'll never fail. EB White ------=_NextPart_000_0033_01C5DA57.FE03A9B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
.... the New Energy Times mascot? = Porksie the=20 flying pig?
 
Hah... the "icon of = improbability"?
http://www.flying-pig.co.uk/pagesv/pig.htm
 
> FG: I must congratulate whoever on the no mean = feat of=20 getting this
> heavier than air creature to fly. =
Does "no mean feat" have "average = toes"...=20 ?
 
Its pork-fect...and not as clich=E9, or = as d=E9class=E9,=20 as the "lead balloon" but yet encapsulating many cloven phat-dreams, and = with a=20 near-Wiki entry to boot:
 
Miracles do happen... and if a pig can = fly, so can=20 I ?
 
Jones
 
     =20 I believe that pigs can fly
      And I know = the=20 reason why
      If you work hard and give = it a=20 go
      Miracles can happen as the wind can = blow.
 
      So now you know that = pigs do=20 fly
      And now you know the reasons=20 why
      On your trip through life, = remember this=20 tale
      Fly with the pigs!....and you'll = never=20 fail.
 
EB White
 
------=_NextPart_000_0033_01C5DA57.FE03A9B0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 26 18:27:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9R1RG68005830; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 18:27:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9R1REow005812; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 18:27:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 18:27:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <004301c5da95$843b53b0$c3037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: <00f401c5d99e$77d2a1c0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051025161050.05937cd0@pop.mindspring.com> <435FCCCF.1020109@pobox.com> <00fb01c5da6b$fe125fa0$6401a8c0@NuDell> Subject: Re: OT: Bird flu resistant to Tamiflu Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 20:26:54 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0040_01C5DA6B.9AF43A60" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.3 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,HTML_20_30, HTML_MESSAGE,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64136 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0040_01C5DA6B.9AF43A60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jones wrote.. Stephen,=20 > Now, time for an anecdote: My father lived through the 1918 flu, in = > Philadelphia; he remembered the coffins stacked by the sides of the=20 > streets.... Very simple, really: No aspirin... The doctor figured = flu=20 > couldn't stand alchohol, and told everybody to get drunk as soon as = they=20 > contracted the flu, and stay drunk until they got over it....Dunno = if it helped, but=20 > it apparently at least didn't make things much worse than they = already were. When I was living in Mexico, during flu season the locals swear by the = power of the blue Agave. It is a cactus which looks a bit like an aloe = vera plant on steroids.=20 You may know it better, when distilled as tequila, but the kind = normally sold here is not from the blue agave (although it is available = at a premium price). US branded Cuervo could not even be sold legally in = Mexico as tequila.=20 South of the border, they claim that Mexico was spared the ravages of = 1918 because of tequila (or pulque which is the undistilled juice), and = also (mainly) the common vegatable cactus: Nopalitos (Nopales). You eat = nopales all day when sick, fried with cilantro and passillas and then = have a nightcap of a fine anejo... and you survive with a smile on your = face. In a recent issue of Daily Dose, the e-letter written by William C = Douglass, M.D. he calls certain alcohols "liquid medicine." He says = "single-malt Scotches are actually richer in a powerful, = cancer-fighting antioxidant called ellagic acid than red wine." The = French swear by both red wine and Calvados, an apple-brandy - and in = Eastern Europe it is Slivovitz, or something like that - a plum brandy. Researchers in Mexico tested the toxin-inhibiting effects of different = species of cactus and found all agave extracts significantly reduced the = growth of bacteria, and the production of toxins by the bacteria which = were not killed - but the blue agave is better (even without any = fermentation) and nopales are also good. And the lime and salt often = taken with the alcohol versions make them better than any gargle for = killing throat and repiratory bacteria. So, with or without the "kick", = the blue agave is the Latino Tamiflu substitute (but not much cheaper, = if it is a find anejo). Yes I know that bacteria and viri are different = and killing one does not guarantee the other - but who am I to argue = with the spirit of Quetzalcoatl and his natural gift to the people. The Aztecs, Toltecs and Mayas based most of their medicine system = around the cactus- not necessarily the booze version, but I suppose if = you are going to spend most of the day in sacrificial heart removal, the = fermented version deadens the pain - both the priests and the victims. Jones, One must adhere to ritual.. always!!.. No self respecting Aztec = priest would ever carve a victim without wearing a Quetzalcoatl feather. = Richard ------=_NextPart_000_0040_01C5DA6B.9AF43A60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jones wrote..

Stephen,

> Now, time for = an=20 anecdote:  My father lived through the 1918 flu, in
>=20 Philadelphia; he remembered the coffins stacked by the sides of the =
>=20 streets.... Very simple, really:  No aspirin...  The doctor = figured=20 flu
> couldn't stand alchohol, and told everybody to get drunk = as soon=20 as they
> contracted the flu, and stay drunk until they got = over=20 it....Dunno if it helped, but
> it apparently at least didn't = make=20 things much worse than they already were.


When I was living = in=20 Mexico, during flu season the locals swear by the power of the blue = Agave. It=20 is a cactus which looks a bit like an aloe vera plant on steroids. =

You=20 may know it better, when distilled as tequila, but the kind normally = sold here=20 is not from the blue agave (although it is available at a premium = price). US=20 branded Cuervo could not even be sold legally in Mexico as tequila.=20

South of the border, they claim that Mexico was spared the = ravages of=20 1918 because of tequila (or pulque which is the undistilled juice), = and also=20 (mainly) the common vegatable cactus: Nopalitos (Nopales). You eat = nopales all=20 day when sick, fried with cilantro and passillas and then have a = nightcap of a=20 fine anejo... and you survive with a smile on your face.

In a = recent=20 issue of Daily Dose, the e-letter written by William C Douglass, M.D. = he calls=20 certain alcohols "liquid medicine." He says "single-malt Scotches are=20 actually  richer in a powerful, cancer-fighting antioxidant = called=20 ellagic acid than red wine." The French swear by both red wine and = Calvados,=20 an apple-brandy - and in Eastern Europe it is Slivovitz, or = something=20 like that - a plum brandy.

Researchers in Mexico tested the=20 toxin-inhibiting effects of different species of cactus and found all = agave=20 extracts significantly reduced the growth of bacteria, and the = production of=20 toxins by the bacteria which were not killed - but the = blue=20 agave is better (even without any fermentation) and nopales are also = good. And=20 the lime and salt often taken with the alcohol versions make them = better than=20 any gargle for killing throat and repiratory bacteria. So, with or = without the=20 "kick", the blue agave is the Latino Tamiflu substitute (but not much = cheaper,=20 if it is a find anejo). Yes I know that bacteria and viri are = different and=20 killing one does not guarantee the other - but who am I to argue with = the=20 spirit of Quetzalcoatl and his natural gift to the = people.

The=20 Aztecs, Toltecs and Mayas based most of their medicine system = around the=20 cactus- not necessarily the booze version, but I suppose if you are = going to=20 spend most of the day in sacrificial heart removal, the fermented = version=20 deadens the pain - both the priests and the = victims.

Jones, One must = adhere to=20 ritual.. always!!.. No self respecting Aztec priest would ever carve a = victim=20 without wearing a Quetzalcoatl feather. 
 
Richard
------=_NextPart_000_0040_01C5DA6B.9AF43A60-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 26 18:33:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9R1WSim008181; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 18:32:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9R1WRXS008158; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 18:32:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 18:32:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <4enjo0$1jmc84m mxip16a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.97,255,1125892800"; d="scan'208"; a="1734746262:sNHT23997884" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: OrionWorks Organization: OrionWorks To: CC: Subject: Re: OT: "pitched the spoon" Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 20:31:49 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64137 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Jed Rothwell > Now that you mention it, I wonder what "throw in the > towel" refers to? As already stated by others I believe it refers to when in a boxing match the trainer throws in the towel to the ring when it looks obvious to him that his fighter is being beaten to a bloody pulp by the opponent. Throwing in the towel tells the referee to stop the fight (they admit defeat). > The Japanese expression is similar in meaning, but > grimmer. In Japanese it is, "saji wo nageru." A saji, or > spoon, was seldom used at the dining table > in the old days. It was more often used by a doctor to > give a patient medicine. When the doctor was confronted > with a patient in a hopeless condition, and he could do > nothing more, he would "toss away the spoon." It > has come to mean "give up" or "stop trying to deal with > a hopeless mess." > > This sort of thing appeals to my morbid sense of humor, > along with Charles Addams cartoons, viz. "Deathray > fiddlesticks. It's not even slowing them down." > > - Jed There are worse vices to have. ;-) I like Adams. I always remember the one where the wife is sitting in the back porch of a mansion what is obviously located in a deep jungle setting somewhere. She says with some impatience "Stop mumbling Georege! What are you trying to say." Behind her (and out of her sight) is an anaconda that has just swallowed her husband as we can see the rather large lump in the middle of the snake. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 27 00:17:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9R7Gh5V017448; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 00:16:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9R7GcMt017409; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 00:16:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 00:16:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Cheap Hydrogen Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 17:16:10 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <410-2200510326104057600 earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <410-2200510326104057600 earthlink.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta03ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.77.227] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Thu, 27 Oct 2005 07:16:10 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j9R7GGl9017210 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64138 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Frederick Sparber's message of Wed, 26 Oct 2005 05:40:57 -0500: Hi, [snip] >> Now that said, I fail to see why momentum can't be conserved >> between a molecule and an emitted photon. IOW why doesn't H >> recombine under emission of UV? >> >Moot point. Where is Ronny Bar-Gadda going to get the mole of 4.525 plus a mole of 5.17 eV >UV photons to split the H-OH and O-H bonds respectively, when you can take advantage >of the free energy of auto-ionization of water and use ~2.0 eV to separate them? > >Or the Iodine-Sulfur thermal water-splitting process. > >Pie in the sky? :-) > >FJS It may be a moot point, but I still want to know the answer. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 27 01:25:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9R8P832008454; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 01:25:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9R8Ofhx008233; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 01:24:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 01:24:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=AKX0/Ct1HwkOxQPFn+W/Ug22i9WE71q9St+p3DGSK7gQjydfurCYVXDiqqzfp3Mv; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220051042772344560 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cheap Hydrogen Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 02:23:44 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94003b65c4a9c4d2eb7b5824285f9cc8f87350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.92 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64139 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > > In reply to Frederick Sparber's message of Wed, 26 Oct 2005 > 05:40:57 -0500: > Hi, > [snip] > >> Now that said, I fail to see why momentum can't be conserved > >> between a molecule and an emitted photon. IOW why doesn't H > >> recombine under emission of UV? > >> > >Moot point. Where is Ronny Bar-Gadda going to get the mole of 4.525 plus a mole of 5.17 eV > >UV photons to split the H-OH and O-H bonds respectively, when you can take advantage > >of the free energy of auto-ionization of water and use ~2.0 eV to separate them? > > > >Or the Iodine-Sulfur thermal water-splitting process. > > > >Pie in the sky? :-) > > > >FJS > It may be a moot point, but I still want to know the answer. > My best shot at that first would be a look at the momentum of the photon, mc = E/c and the momentum of the atom/molecule mv from Boltzman's K.E. = 0.5 mv^2 = kT. Then a look at the Raman Effect, Compton Effect, and the Lamb Shift. If memory serves there was an experiment ( ca. 1980) that involved an infrared laser shined on a gas and the frequency shift noted. This was done at the Arizona University where Willis Lamb was on staff. Google away, Robin. :-) Fred > > Robin van Spaandonk > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > Competition provides the motivation, > Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 27 01:40:42 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9R8dwqE014751; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 01:40:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9R8dnZ2014701; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 01:39:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 01:39:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=F1QZIwhX6mlOpZmxmgLUBbO504XOOuVkGxxTxTEJuH9fwdg7S86IksrkWSTDwdo1; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220051042773911100 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Bird Flu Survival Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 02:39:11 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9400e1503c715a48d0ee9d7e294d17aefdd350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.92 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64140 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII I watched a TV interview with Dr. Gaynor and was impressed by his comments on a possible flu pandemic and the vitamins-minerals-foods that will help build up the immune system for survival, "especially for those over age 65 where 90% of the fatalities occur". "Nurture Nature, Nurture Health: Your Health and the Environment" M.D. Mitchell L. Gaynor; Paperback; $30.00 On the bookshelf as of Oct 1st 2005. Since I'm over 70, I ordered a couple of copies. :-) Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

I watched a TV interview with Dr. Gaynor and was impressed by
his comments on a possible flu pandemic and the vitamins-minerals-foods that will
help build up the immune system for survival, "especially for those over
age 65 where 90% of the fatalities occur".
 
 
"Nurture Nature, Nurture Health: Your Health and the Environment"
M.D. Mitchell L. Gaynor; Paperback; $30.00
 
On the bookshelf as of Oct 1st 2005.
 
Since I'm over 70, I ordered a couple of copies. :-)
 
Fred

 
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 27 05:21:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9RCKWhJ029624; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 05:20:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9RCKR0B029583; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 05:20:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 05:20:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000f01c5daf0$c115ba40$56037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Bird Flu Survival Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 07:20:00 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000B_01C5DAC6.D772EC60" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.6 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,HTML_60_70,HTML_MESSAGE,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64141 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C5DAC6.D772EC60 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000C_01C5DAC6.D7749A10" ------=_NextPart_001_000C_01C5DAC6.D7749A10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank Fred wrote.. >I watched a TV interview with Dr. Gaynor and was impressed by >his comments on a possible flu pandemic and the vitamins-minerals-foods = that will >help build up the immune system for survival, "especially for those = over >age 65 where 90% of the fatalities occur". Fred, Us old geezers gotta stick together. One of the best sources of vitamin = C is .. again "cactus". The Indian medicine plant Aloe Vera is the best = for natural C. Be sure to eat the whole leaf and not just the jel = inside. Canned AV is NOT a source. It takes the natural green fresh = leaf. Wash , cut off spurs and dice a 1/4 cup of AV and you have the = equal to a super dose of powdered C. If you can't find any in Alaska, = kick me an e-mail and I will send you a plant you can keep in the = greenhouse. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_000C_01C5DAC6.D7749A10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
 
Fred wrote..
 
>I watched a TV interview with Dr. = Gaynor and=20 was impressed by
>his comments on a possible flu pandemic = and the=20 vitamins-minerals-foods that will
>help build up the immune system for = survival,=20 "especially for those over
>age 65 where 90% of the fatalities=20 occur".
 
 
Fred,
 
Us old geezers gotta stick together. One of = the best=20 sources of vitamin C is .. again "cactus". The Indian medicine plant = Aloe Vera=20 is the best for natural C. Be sure to eat the whole leaf and not just = the jel=20 inside. Canned AV is NOT a source. It takes the natural green fresh = leaf. Wash ,=20 cut off spurs and dice a 1/4 cup of AV and you have the equal to a super = dose of=20 powdered C. If you can't find any in Alaska, kick me an e-mail and I = will send=20 you a plant you can keep in the greenhouse.
 
Richard
------=_NextPart_001_000C_01C5DAC6.D7749A10-- ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C5DAC6.D772EC60 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000a01c5daf0$c03cbf60$56037841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C5DAC6.D772EC60-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 27 05:47:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9RCkFQG009051; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 05:46:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9RCk3sK008982; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 05:46:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 05:46:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4360CBE5.7080002 pobox.com> Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 08:45:25 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.10) Gecko/20050719 Fedora/1.7.10-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Bird Flu Survival References: <000f01c5daf0$c115ba40$56037841 xptower> In-Reply-To: <000f01c5daf0$c115ba40$56037841 xptower> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64142 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: RC Macaulay wrote: > > Fred wrote.. > > >I watched a TV interview with Dr. Gaynor and was impressed by > >his comments on a possible flu pandemic and the > vitamins-minerals-foods that will > >help build up the immune system for survival, "especially for those over > >age 65 where 90% of the fatalities occur". > > > Fred, > > Us old geezers gotta stick together. One of the best sources of > vitamin C is .. again "cactus". The Indian medicine plant Aloe Vera is > the best for natural C. Be sure to eat the whole leaf and not just the > jel inside. Canned AV is NOT a source. It takes the natural green > fresh leaf. Wash , cut off spurs and dice a 1/4 cup of AV and you have > the equal to a super dose of powdered C. If you can't find any in > Alaska, kick me an e-mail and I will send you a plant you can keep in > the greenhouse. I've read that the skin of these plants becomes toxic as the plant ages, so you may want to avoid using those huge older plants that are jumping out of their pots, as aloes are wont to do, and stick to the smaller ones (like, just use the offsets from a big plant, and leave the big plant itself alone). > > Richard From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 27 06:05:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9RD4lUe018610; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 06:05:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9RD1IWT016415; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 06:01:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 06:01:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4360CF0B.3010306 iinet.net.au> Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 22:58:51 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Nature giving an inch? References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051026152521.0403deb0 pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20051026152521.0403deb0 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <65EzTB.A.GAE.a-MYDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64143 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > The Google Alerts program brought me the following link: > > http://www.nature.com/news/2005/051024/full/4371224a.html > > I am not a subscriber to nature.com, so I do not know what the article > says, but Google brought me a partial quote: > > "Physics: Far from the frontier > > Nature.com (subscription) - London,England,UK > > ... problem with reports of tabletop fusion is that for most > scientists they evoke memories of the notorious, and now largely > discredited, 'cold fusion' claim made ... " > > Note that it says: "now largely discredited . . ." Perhaps it is my > imagination, but I detect a slight change in emphasis. Unfortunately, > at this rate it will take a hundred years for Nature to admit its > mistake. > > - Jed > > Make that two hundred years they have a back log including Plate Tectonics, Junk DNA, etc. Nature is never the first journal to come around. It prides itself on being the last. If it gets in nature its deemed to be part of the paradigm. As a consequence they will never catch up. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 27 07:03:01 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9RE2VpQ018636; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 07:02:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9RE2Sf8018580; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 07:02:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 07:02:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=OXSuisOvbh4ajarndu1xtFZC+ey9EDz9baUPeerCNQCaBPmjmpkVsWKSp/+1sl1a; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <411-220051042713148440 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Bird Flu Survival Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 08:01:48 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940dab7d0a3b3b1cf34ddc27e677a6b7f64350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.150 Resent-Message-ID: <63-7aB.A.KiE.03NYDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64144 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Thanks Richard. Aloe Vera is a big item in NM. My mother was 14 when the flu epidemic hit northwestern Pennsylvania. The cemetery gravestones (mostly marble) reflect the extent of fatalities. My mother-in law was 12 in central New Mexico. She said they couldn't keep up with the burial of the piles of bodies. According to this Feb 2004 National Geographic item bodies from 1918 victims exhumed from the Alaskan Permafrost helped nail down the Bird Flu- Spanish Flu connection. http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/02/0205_040205_spanishflu.html "Solving an 86-year-old medical mystery, British scientists have determined the structure of the so-called "Spanish flu" virus that jumped from birds to humans in 1918, killing more than 20 million people worldwide. In two separate studies, researchers from the Medical Research Council in London showed that the virus likely derived from an avian virus and retained some key characteristics of its avian precursor that caught the human immune system off-guard. Although the discovery will probably not have an immediate impact on the current outbreak of chicken flu in Asia, the work will help scientists better understand flu viruses and their transmission from birds to humans. The new evidence suggests that "receptor binding," the initial event in virus infection in which a foreign virus mixes with human proteins, is perhaps more important than the virulence of the virus in determining risk of transmission. " Fred ----- Original Message ----- From: RC Macaulay To: vortex-l eskimo.com Sent: 10/27/05 7:20:52 AM Subject: Re: Bird Flu Survival Fred wrote.. >I watched a TV interview with Dr. Gaynor and was impressed by >his comments on a possible flu pandemic and the vitamins-minerals-foods that will >help build up the immune system for survival, "especially for those over >age 65 where 90% of the fatalities occur". Fred, Us old geezers gotta stick together. One of the best sources of vitamin C is .. again "cactus". The Indian medicine plant Aloe Vera is the best for natural C. Be sure to eat the whole leaf and not just the jel inside. Canned AV is NOT a source. It takes the natural green fresh leaf. Wash , cut off spurs and dice a 1/4 cup of AV and you have the equal to a super dose of powdered C. If you can't find any in Alaska, kick me an e-mail and I will send you a plant you can keep in the greenhouse. Richard ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Blank
Thanks Richard.
 
Aloe Vera is a big item in NM.
 
My mother was 14 when the flu epidemic hit northwestern Pennsylvania.
The cemetery gravestones (mostly marble) reflect the extent of fatalities.
My mother-in law was 12 in central New Mexico. She said they couldn't keep
up with the burial of the piles of bodies.
 
According to this Feb 2004 National Geographic item bodies from 1918 victims exhumed from
the Alaskan Permafrost helped nail down the Bird Flu- Spanish Flu connection.
 
 
"Solving an 86-year-old medical mystery, British scientists have determined the structure of the so-called "Spanish flu" virus that jumped from birds to humans in 1918, killing more than 20 million people worldwide.

In two separate studies, researchers from the Medical Research Council in London showed that the virus likely derived from an avian virus and retained some key characteristics of its avian precursor that caught the human immune system off-guard.

Although the discovery will probably not have an immediate impact on the current outbreak of chicken flu in Asia, the work will help scientists better understand flu viruses and their transmission from birds to humans.

The new evidence suggests that "receptor binding," the initial event in virus infection in which a foreign virus mixes with human proteins, is perhaps more important than the virulence of the virus in determining risk of transmission. "

Fred

----- Original Message -----
Sent: 10/27/05 7:20:52 AM
Subject: Re: Bird Flu Survival

 
Fred wrote..
 
>I watched a TV interview with Dr. Gaynor and was impressed by
>his comments on a possible flu pandemic and the vitamins-minerals-foods that will
>help build up the immune system for survival, "especially for those over
>age 65 where 90% of the fatalities occur".
 
 
Fred,
 
Us old geezers gotta stick together. One of the best sources of vitamin C is .. again "cactus". The Indian medicine plant Aloe Vera is the best for natural C. Be sure to eat the whole leaf and not just the jel inside. Canned AV is NOT a source. It takes the natural green fresh leaf. Wash , cut off spurs and dice a 1/4 cup of AV and you have the equal to a super dose of powdered C. If you can't find any in Alaska, kick me an e-mail and I will send you a plant you can keep in the greenhouse.
 
Richard
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Description: Blank Bkgrd.gif Content-Id: <410-2200510427131459101 13071999> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 27 07:34:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9REXsK2026962; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 07:34:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9REXhIY026821; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 07:33:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 07:33:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: temalloy metro.lakes.com (Unverified) Message-Id: Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 09:33:39 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Porksie Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64145 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I didn't notice any story behind the mascot, is there some additional meaning, or just humor? It's too bad that they didn't name it Parksie. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 27 07:47:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9REkUU1012424; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 07:46:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9REkLPa012259; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 07:46:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 07:46:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051027104303.03818980 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 10:45:39 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Schwinger paper text version is on line Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64146 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The text format version of the Schwinger paper is on line here, thanks to Robert Bass: http://www.innoventek.com/SchwingerICCF1March1990.pdf Bass has offered to proofread my Microsoft Word version, but he is busy for the next few weeks, so if someone else could assist I would appreciate it. The Abstract is below. - Jed - - - - - - - - - - - - ABSTRACT The distinct nature of the cold fusion regime is emphasized: electromagnetic selection rules suppress radiation, permitting excess energy transference to the lattice; the coherent nature of the wave-function is at variance with the standard separation between barrier penetration and nuclear reactivity. The discussion is restricted to tritium production, based on the dd reaction that populates the first excited state of 4He, which decays into t+p, whereas the formation of 3He+n is energetically forbidden. Production rates compatible with the broad range of experimental results are realized within a narrow parametric interval. The great sensitivity to the physical circumstances is reminiscent of the reproducibility problems that have plagued this field. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 27 08:55:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9RFs0RN002282; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 08:54:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9RFrt24002209; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 08:53:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 08:53:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001001c5db0e$8fed5d10$6d027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: Subject: Re: Porksie Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 10:53:23 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.8 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: <2xvj9.A.Ii.SgPYDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64147 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Either as long as it's not pornie. Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: "thomas malloy" To: Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2005 9:33 AM Subject: Porksie >I didn't notice any story behind the mascot, is there some additional > meaning, or just humor? > > It's too bad that they didn't name it Parksie. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 27 09:21:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9RGL5NX002131; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 09:21:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9RGL4as002099; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 09:21:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 09:21:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <006101c5db10$f1693210$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <411-220051042713148440 earthlink.net> Subject: OT: Bird Flu Pork Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 09:10:25 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_005D_01C5DAD6.44A15F10" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64148 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_005D_01C5DAD6.44A15F10 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_005E_01C5DAD6.44A15F10" ------=_NextPart_001_005E_01C5DAD6.44A15F10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankHere is another article on Tamiflu, which although seemingly = slanted both ways - towards, and against, our favorite drug-monopoly - = Roche - is more balanced than the typical pro-Tam spin: http://tinyurl.com/b88qs=20 But the disguised-spin here, and avoidance of the newer evidence, is = still ingrained. If you want to learn more about the "how-to" of = high-level spin... i.e. how you can use "reverse-psychology" to your = benefit, and especially the use of "scare tactics," to create either = national solidarity or a demand for the very "product" you seem to be = "dissing" - there is a collection of the English translations of = Goebbels' Nazi propaganda material, including weekly articles for "Das = Reich," online: www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/goebmain.htm Cheney/ Rumsfeld & Co are able-students of this material and of all = reverse psychology ploys ("please don't throw me in the briar patch") as = are protoges: "Scooter" and Karl. Despite the fact that our Prez, and = many for-real Public health experts, warn that the world might be close = to a repeat of the flu pandemic of 1918, could it instead be closer to = the rebirth -and the planned-reprise of the 1976 soap-opera - the = "pandemic that wasn't "? =20 That porker, you may remember was designed to unite the country behind = its failing leadership, and divert attention away from the horrible = economic repercussions of the post-Nam era. That is the year President = Gerald Ford announced a crash program to "inoculate every man, woman and = child in the United States" against the so-called "swine flu." But the = virus never became a killer, more like a stand-up comedy routine - and = vaccinations were halted two months after they began, after reports that = 500 people who received the shot developed a paralyzing nerve disease = and more than 30 of them died.=20 Lesson #1 for the sequel of this previous 1976 spin-episode is... = ta-da... this time we must give them something which is a bit less = potentially harmful (and more financial remunerative) not-to-mention get = the public attention away from that damn grand jury thing. Curiously ... artist/photog Richard Avedon has a new offering of fine = photos out just now, entitled: Donald Rumsfeld, Secretary of Defense, = Washington D.C., May 7, 1976 http://tinyurl.com/aw8uy=20 Coincidencental?.. or was 1976 just a training-run for the Rummy = grand-finale... I bring up this possible Goebble-esque machination, of what could just = be another normal flu-season- and the possibility that there now exists = a possible "manufactured" scare tactic in palce (but improved spin over = 1976 version) - not only because of the double Rummy-whammy... but also, = in a more personal vein. The only time I ever actually caught the flu, = and it was horrible, was back in the previous-to-'76 scare, in the = sixties - and in basic training at Ft.Leonard Wood two weeks after = receiving a mandatory flu shot. Lord knows, we did not want to ship-out = any of our fine young boys unprotected, going over there to southeast = Asia, and have them catching the flu before they could = kill-and-be-killed by the red-commie-infidels. Funny they didn't even = think about malaria. If scientists were so very wrong in the previous pandemic scares, like = 1976 and the lesser ones before and since, and if the "shot itself" = often transmits the (supposedly incapacitated) virus - could they be = wrong now? I know that Tamiflu is not "supposed to" contain any = incapacitated virus, but I'm not sure I want to be the guinea-pig (sorry = porksie) for that kind of proposition once again - even if they are = given out for free. Maybe that is why the spinners chose a foreign = middleman company (should things go wrong). Some arguments being made about "why" a pandemic is looming now - echo = those made three decades ago. But many experts with big-Gov and CDC say = the situation now is different enough - that a "false alarm" is less = likely: So just be good little obedient citizens and do not complain = about the $8 billion, or more, which we are sending over to = Roche/Gilead. Riggggght...=20 ...experts covering the backside of previous experts.=20 Not to mention - a possible behind the scene manipulation, by someone's = spin-machine. And BTW did you notice that Roche itself may have been = carefully picked-out, among all possible drug comapnies, to handle being = the middle-man for Gilead - because of its location? Not that the = royalty checks will go into a hidden Swiss bank account, or anything = like that. Anyway, "We just know a lot more about the influenza virus than we did = in 1976," said Ira M. Longini Jr., a professor at Emory University who = is an expert on epidemics. Still, a lot can be learned both from what = did and did not happen back then. The 1976 scare started in February = when a handful of soldiers at Fort Dix in New Jersey got sick and one of = them died. Scientists determined that the virus was one that infected = pigs and was different from the human influenza viruses circulating = then. The details are eerily similar to today's situation with a 30 year = fast forward. But one reason for the previous concern was that = scientists thought the 1918 pandemic had been caused by a swine virus, = and that the Fort Dix outbreak marked its second coming. Furthermore, = experts warned that pandemics tended to be cyclical and that another one = was about due.=20 Yup, cyclical and past due. Has a nice ring to it and a cachet of = believability. Today, thanks to genetic analysis - a technique not available in 1976 - = scientists know the 1918 virus was a bird virus that mutated. Yeah. But = yet there is still the "vector" involving pigs - Porksie = notwithstanding. You see, most scientists agree that swine can be = infected by either the avian virus, or the human virus BUT and this is a = key point - the swine who can catch both types seldom die from it - = instead they harbor it and give it time to mutate - while there fat = little bodies are happily producing 10-20 grams per day of vitamin C, so = that they usually do not succumb to the illness - only allow it to = become much more virulent for humans. About the same thing which happens = when some folks get Tamiflu and return to work and give it to those who = do not. So now, there is concern that the H5N1 avian strain ravaging birds in = Asia could in like fashion evolve into a form that can spread easily = among porkers and then people, after proper mutation. The avian strain = already shows some mutations similar to those in the 1918 virus, said = Jeffery K. Taubenberger of the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology. And = experts are again warning that the world is overdue for a pandemic. Is = this part of the Rumsflu spin, or no? Edwin M. Kilbourne, a professor emeritus at New York Medical College who = argued for the vaccination program in 1976, said there was actually less = reason to be concerned about a pandemic today. That is because the swine = flu virus at Fort Dix clearly passed easily from person to person, while = the current avian flu has not. Is that part of the reverse psychology = Rumsflu spin, or no? Many experts disagree with either characterization, however. In = retrospect, they say, the 1976 decision to vaccinate was based on zero = solid evidence, and may have been influenced by political realities. = "Part of the problem was convictions outpacing evidence," said Harvey V. = Fineberg, president of the Institute of Medicine, part of the National = Academies, and co-author of "The Epidemic That Never Was," a book about = the 1976 experience.=20 "I don't think that's happening today," he adds. Well, with all due respect Harvey, have you read the "program"? Same = cast, different story-line? Signed, Harry Tuttle, Ing. and MD-S (spin-doctor) ------=_NextPart_001_005E_01C5DAD6.44A15F10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Here is another article on Tamiflu, = which although=20 seemingly slanted both ways - towards, and against, our favorite=20 drug-monopoly - Roche - is more balanced than the typical pro-Tam=20 spin:
http://tinyurl.com/b88qs =
 
But the disguised-spin here, and = avoidance of the=20 newer evidence, is still ingrained. If you want to learn more about the = "how-to"=20 of high-level spin... i.e. how you can use "reverse-psychology" to = your=20 benefit, and especially the use of "scare tactics," to create either = national=20 solidarity or a demand for the very "product" you seem to be = "dissing" - there is a collection of the = English translations of=20 Goebbels=92 Nazi propaganda material, including weekly articles for "Das = Reich,"=20 online:
www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/goebmain.htm

<= FONT=20 face=3DArial size=3D2>Cheney/ Rumsfeld & Co are able-students of = this material=20 and of all reverse psychology ploys ("please don't throw me in the = briar=20 patch") as are protoges: "Scooter" and Karl. Despite the fact = that our=20 Prez, and many for-real Public health experts, warn that the world might = be=20 close to a repeat of the flu pandemic of 1918, could it instead be = closer to the=20 rebirth -and the planned-reprise of the 1976 soap-opera - the "pandemic = that=20 wasn't "? 
 
That porker, you may remember was = designed to unite=20 the country behind its failing leadership, and divert attention away = from the=20 horrible economic repercussions of the post-Nam era. That is the year = President=20 Gerald Ford announced a crash program to "inoculate every man, woman and = child=20 in the United States" against the so-called "swine flu." But the virus = never=20 became a killer, more like a stand-up comedy routine - and vaccinations = were=20 halted two months after they began, after reports that 500 people who = received=20 the shot developed a paralyzing nerve disease and more than 30 of them = died.=20
 
Lesson #1 for the sequel of this = previous 1976=20 spin-episode is... ta-da... this time we must give them = something=20 which is a bit less potentially harmful (and more financial = remunerative)=20 not-to-mention get the public attention away from that damn grand jury=20 thing.
 
Curiously ... artist/photog Richard = Avedon=20 has a new offering of fine photos out just now, = entitled: Donald=20 Rumsfeld, Secretary of Defense, Washington D.C., May 7, = 1976
http://tinyurl.com/aw8uy =
 
Coincidencental?.. or was 1976 just a = training-run=20 for the Rummy grand-finale...

I bring up this possible = Goebble-esque=20 machination, of what could just be another normal flu-season- and the=20 possibility that there now exists a possible "manufactured" scare tactic = in=20 palce (but improved spin over 1976 version) - not only = because of=20 the double Rummy-whammy... but also, in a more personal vein. The = only time=20 I ever actually caught the flu, and it was horrible, was back in = the=20 previous-to-'76 scare, in the sixties - and in basic training at = Ft.Leonard Wood=20 two weeks after receiving a mandatory flu shot. Lord knows, we did not = want to=20 ship-out any of our fine young boys unprotected, going over there to = southeast=20 Asia, and have them catching the flu before they could = kill-and-be-killed by the=20 red-commie-infidels. Funny they didn't even think about = malaria.

If=20 scientists were so very wrong in the previous pandemic scares, like 1976 = and the=20 lesser ones before and since, and if the "shot itself" often transmits = the=20 (supposedly incapacitated) virus - could they be wrong now? I know that = Tamiflu=20 is not "supposed to" contain any incapacitated virus, but I'm not sure I = want to=20 be the guinea-pig (sorry porksie) for that kind of proposition once = again - even=20 if they are given out for free. Maybe that is why the = spinners chose a=20 foreign middleman company (should things go wrong).
 
Some arguments being made about "why" a = pandemic is=20 looming now - echo those made three decades ago. But many experts with = big-Gov=20 and CDC say the situation now is different enough - that a "false alarm" = is less=20 likely: So just be good little obedient citizens and do not complain = about the=20 $8 billion, or more, which we are sending over to Roche/Gilead.=20 Riggggght...
...experts covering the backside of = previous=20 experts.
 
Not to mention - a possible behind the = scene=20 manipulation, by someone's spin-machine. And BTW did you notice that = Roche=20 itself may have been carefully picked-out, among all possible drug=20 comapnies, to handle being the middle-man for Gilead - because of = its=20 location? Not that the royalty checks will go into a hidden Swiss bank = account,=20 or anything like that.

Anyway, "We just know a lot more about the = influenza virus than we did in 1976," said Ira M. Longini Jr., a = professor at=20 Emory University who is an expert on epidemics. Still, a lot can be = learned both=20 from what did and did not happen back then. The 1976 scare started in = February=20 when a handful of soldiers at Fort Dix in New Jersey got sick and one of = them=20 died. Scientists determined that the virus was one that infected pigs = and was=20 different from the human influenza viruses circulating then. The details = are=20 eerily similar to today's situation with a 30 year fast forward. But one = reason=20 for the previous concern was that scientists thought the 1918 pandemic = had been=20 caused by a swine virus, and that the Fort Dix outbreak marked its = second=20 coming. Furthermore, experts warned that pandemics tended to be cyclical = and=20 that another one was about due.
 
Yup, cyclical and past due. Has a nice = ring to it=20 and a cachet of believability.

Today, thanks to genetic analysis = - a=20 technique not available in 1976 - scientists know the 1918 virus was a = bird=20 virus that mutated. Yeah. But yet there is still the "vector" involving = pigs -=20 Porksie notwithstanding. You see, most scientists agree that swine can = be=20 infected by either the avian virus, or the human virus BUT and this is a = key=20 point - the swine who can catch both types seldom die from it - = instead=20 they harbor it and give it time to mutate - while there fat little = bodies are=20 happily producing 10-20 grams per day of vitamin C, so that they usually = do not=20 succumb to the illness - only allow it to become much more virulent for = humans.=20 About the same thing which happens when some folks get Tamiflu and = return to=20 work and give it to those who do not.

So now, there is concern = that the=20 H5N1 avian strain ravaging birds in Asia could in like fashion evolve = into a=20 form that can spread easily among porkers and then people, after proper=20 mutation. The avian strain already shows some mutations similar to those = in the=20 1918 virus, said Jeffery K. Taubenberger of the Armed Forces Institute = of=20 Pathology. And experts are again warning that the world is overdue for a = pandemic. Is this part of the Rumsflu spin, or no?

Edwin M. = Kilbourne, a=20 professor emeritus at New York Medical College who argued for the = vaccination=20 program in 1976, said there was actually less reason to be concerned = about a=20 pandemic today. That is because the swine flu virus at Fort Dix clearly = passed=20 easily from person to person, while the current avian flu has not. Is = that part=20 of the reverse psychology Rumsflu spin, or no?

Many experts = disagree with=20 either characterization, however. In retrospect, they say, the 1976 = decision to=20 vaccinate was based on zero solid evidence, and may have been = influenced by=20 political realities.  "Part = of the=20 problem was convictions outpacing evidence," said Harvey V. Fineberg, = president=20 of the Institute of Medicine, part of the National Academies, and = co-author of=20 "The Epidemic That Never Was," a book about the 1976 experience. =
 
"I don't think that's happening today," = he=20 adds.
 
Well, with all due respect Harvey, have = you read=20 the "program"? Same cast, different story-line?
 
Signed,
 
Harry Tuttle,  Ing. and MD-S (spin-doctor)
 
 
------=_NextPart_001_005E_01C5DAD6.44A15F10-- ------=_NextPart_000_005D_01C5DAD6.44A15F10 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <005c01c5db10$f0fded20$6401a8c0 NuDell> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_005D_01C5DAD6.44A15F10-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 27 09:35:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9RGYWWL019168; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 09:34:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9RGYUpd019138; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 09:34:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 09:34:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [64.174.37.158] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes msn.com] X-Sender: mgoldes msn.com From: "Mark Goldes" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: COP >21 repeatedly - claim by Naudin Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 09:34:09 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Oct 2005 16:34:10.0110 (UTC) FILETIME=[41E235E0:01C5DB14] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64149 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vo, In case you have not seen this... http://www.gifnet.org/ Mark From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 27 10:51:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9RHoMu8000433; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 10:50:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9RHoF68000352; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 10:50:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 10:50:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051027132545.04ce4eb0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 13:49:37 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: COP >21 repeatedly - claim by Naudin In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64150 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mark Goldes wrote: >In case you have not seen this... > >http://www.gifnet.org/ The music on that web site is annoying. It appears to be nothing more than a frame with Naudin's own web site: http://jlnlabs.imars.com/mahg/tests/mahg2c.htm This has an equally annoying pop-up advertisement for online gambling. Oh, how low we must go to fund this research. Boy! What should we make of Naudin? He seems honest and well-intentioned, but when he makes claims like this it makes me nervous. I cannot tell whether he has solved the energy crisis at a stroke, or gone off the deep end. This site has many fine photographs and lots of graphs and data, but no general explanation as to how the gadget is supposed to work, or the experimental method. Here are two general introductions that I confess leave me little wiser: http://jlnlabs.imars.com/mahg/tests/index.htm http://jlnlabs.imars.com/mahg/logbook.htm Perhaps this is a minor issue, but this gadget appears to violate the first law of thermodynamics. The experimental method appears to be flow calorimetry: http://jlnlabs.imars.com/mahg/setup.htm What I do not understand is how and why they manage to keep the input and output temperatures stable while they rapidly vary the flow of water. That seems difficult. They must have a feedback mechanism. Is there a reason they do it this way? Most people use the opposite approach, keeping the water flow as stable as possible while varying either input power, input power plays heater power (McKubre's method), or by letting the output temperature (and cell temperature) fluctuate. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 27 10:55:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9RHscAR003313; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 10:54:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9RHsbKF003286; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 10:54:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 10:54:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: ThomasClark123 aol.com Message-ID: <7f.69d52101.30926e3b aol.com> Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 13:54:03 EDT Subject: Re: Gyroscopes - Everything you needed to know To: fjsparber earthlink.net, vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1130435643" X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5039 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64152 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -------------------------------1130435643 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/13/2005 4:56:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, fjsparber earthlink.net writes: How do you make a Deuteron (in D2O) flip over?? http://www.gyroscopes.org/movies.asp The reference to Carl Sagan reminded me that a gyroscope was used in the Contact movie to cause a ship to teleport into the 4th dimension. This then caused me to reverse engineer Sagan's gyroscope teleportation force field engine. If we assume that the high frequency rotating gyroscopes placed around the ship creates complex super vortex patterns in all 3 directions, then we can postulate that the high frequency rotating gyroscopes jam out normal gravity and 3d space energies in all directions to cause the ship to be placed into the 4th dimension of pure energy where time and space are very different. Sagan's gyroscopic force field engine can also be used to cause a ship to levitate by canceling out gravity waves and energies along the gravity plane. Perhaps to get a ship to levitate rather than teleport in the 4th dimension some of the HF gyroscopic force field engines may be slowed down or only rotated along the gravity planes to just jam out gravity and not 3d space energies. The link given on gyroscopic math http://www.gyroscopes.org/movies.asp does not include vortex and scalar wave gyroscopic math which would describe the complex vortex and countervortex patterns created in a gyroscope that may be used to jam out gravity and 3d space to allow a ship to not only levitate but also teleport into the 4th dimension. Konstantine Meyl in his book Scalar Waves gives the vortex and scalar wave equations which can be added to standard gyroscopic math equations to describe the vortex and scalar wave fields and their consequences with high frequency rotating gyroscopes encircling or placed in a ship. It should be noted that a series of orthogonal energies beam placed around a ship which rotates around the ship in a high frequency fashion could also simulate a real gyroscope around the ship in an energy force field form so that real metal gyroscopes may be replaced with holographic energy beam gyroscopes. Many antigravity space ships also use gyroscopes to navigate the space ships, since once a ship is in an antigravity state, it also loses its magnetic poles and a gyroscope can be set to due north in the ship before take off so that the gyroscope can be used to navigate the ship once normal magnetic fields have been jammed by the antigravity force fields. Baron Von Volsung, http://www.rhfweb.com/baron, Email: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html President Thomas D. Clark, Email: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html, Personal Web Page: http://www.rhfweb.com/personal New Age Production's Inc., http://www.rhfweb.com/newage Star Haven Community Services, at http://www.rhfweb.com/sh Radiation Health Foundation Trust at http://www.rhfweb.com/ Making a difference one person at a time Get informed. Inform others. -------------------------------1130435643 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In a message dated 10/13/2005 4:56:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, fjsparb= er earthlink.net writes:
How do you make a Deuteron (in D2= O) flip over??
 
The reference to Carl Sagan reminded me that a gyroscope was used in th= e Contact movie to cause a ship to teleport into the 4th dimension.  Th= is then caused me to reverse engineer Sagan's gyroscope teleportation force=20= field engine.  If we assume that the high frequency rotating gyroscopes= placed around the ship creates complex super vortex patterns in all 3 direc= tions, then we can postulate that the high frequency rotating gyroscopes jam= out normal gravity and 3d space energies in all directions to cause the shi= p to be placed into the 4th dimension of pure energy where time and space ar= e very different.  Sagan's gyroscopic force field engine can also be us= ed to cause a ship to levitate by canceling out gravity waves and energies a= long the gravity plane.  Perhaps to get a ship to levitate rather than=20= teleport in the 4th dimension some of the HF gyroscopic force field engines=20= may be slowed down or only rotated along the gravity planes to just jam out=20= gravity and not 3d space energies.
 
The link given on gyroscopic math http://ww= w.gyroscopes.org/movies.asp does not include vortex and scalar wave= gyroscopic math which would describe the complex vortex and countervortex p= atterns created in a gyroscope that may be used to jam out gravity and 3d sp= ace to allow a ship to not only levitate but also teleport into the 4th dime= nsion.  Konstantine Meyl in his book Scalar Waves gives the vortex and=20= scalar wave equations which can be added to standard gyroscopic math equatio= ns to describe the vortex and scalar wave fields and their consequences with= high frequency rotating gyroscopes encircling or placed in a ship.
 
It should be noted that a series of orthogonal energies beam place= d around a ship which rotates around the ship in a high frequency fashion co= uld also simulate a real gyroscope around the ship in an energy force field=20= form so that real metal gyroscopes may be replaced with holographic energy b= eam gyroscopes.   Many antigravity space ships also use gyroscopes= to navigate the space ships, since once a ship is in an antigravity state,=20= it also loses its magnetic poles and a gyroscope can be set to due north in=20= the ship before take off so that the gyroscope can be used to navigate the s= hip once normal magnetic fields have been jammed by the antigravity force fi= elds.
 
Baron Von Volsung, http://www.rhfweb.com/baron, Email: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html
President Thomas D. Clark,= Email: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html,
Pers= onal Web Page: http://www.rhfweb.com/personal
New Age Productio= n's Inc., http://www.rhfweb.com/newage
Star Haven Community Service= s, at = http://www.rhfweb.com/sh
Radiation Health Foundation Trust at http://www.rhfweb= .com/

Making a difference one person at a time
Get informed= . Inform others.
-------------------------------1130435643-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 27 11:06:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9RI5e1Z011641; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 11:05:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9RI5bZT011599; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 11:05:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 11:05:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051027135659.04ca6a70 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 14:05:01 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: COP >21 repeatedly - claim by Naudin In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20051027132545.04ce4eb0 pop.mindspring.com> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051027132545.04ce4eb0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64153 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: >input power plays heater power (McKubre's method) . . . Meant "input power plus heater power." Sorry. Do I have this right? See the graphs on this page: http://jlnlabs.imars.com/mahg/tests/mahg2c.htm In the graph for test run 76, the fluctuating green line is water flow in liters per minute. The red and blue lines do not fluctuate. They are "temp input" and "temp output" which I presume means cooling water inlet temperature and outlet temperature. (Not the cell temperature.) As I said, I don't see how and why did they pulled this off, but perhaps there is a good reason. One must be careful not to make snap judgments about experiments of this nature. Here is a general introduction to the theory: http://jlnlabs.imars.com/mahg/article.htm This web site is hard to navigate. I hope that users find LENR-CANR.org easier to navigate. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 27 11:42:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9RIf290003229; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 11:41:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9RIewUN003119; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 11:40:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 11:40:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43611F1B.3020209 pobox.com> Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 14:40:27 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.10) Gecko/20050719 Fedora/1.7.10-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: COP >21 repeatedly - claim by Naudin References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051027132545.04ce4eb0@pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20051027135659.04ca6a70@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20051027135659.04ca6a70 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64154 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > I wrote: > >> input power plays heater power (McKubre's method) . . . > > > Meant "input power plus heater power." Sorry. > > Do I have this right? See the graphs on this page: > > http://jlnlabs.imars.com/mahg/tests/mahg2c.htm > > In the graph for test run 76, the fluctuating green line is water flow > in liters per minute. The red and blue lines do not fluctuate. They > are "temp input" and "temp output" which I presume means cooling water Don't think so. That's the water he's running the reaction with; it's not 'disinterested' "cooling water". The speed of the reaction depends on how fast water goes in and comes out. The rise in temp of the dissocciated/reassociated water depends on the reaction and may be relatively independent of the flow rate. He's adjusting the input temperature with an outboard cooling unit, so the input temp should be fixed; again, the output temp depends on the reaction and will typically be a fixed offset above the input temp. Note that he's also playing some games with a "temperature offset" to compensate for initial conditions being different from the long-term conditions; with temp variations this small that bit is probably worth careful scrutiny. > Perhaps this is a minor issue, but this gadget appears to violate the > first law of thermodynamics. I'd say that'a a pretty major point, actually. Electrolysis and recombination doesn't leave a lot of room for the "ZPE fairies" to flutter in during the badly-understood parts of the reaction in order to work their magic and create excess heat. Up until the present, when an experiment appears to violate the first law, it has generally paid off to look for either (a) a previously overlooked energy source (e.g., cold fusion) or (b) look for the mistake in the setup or the calculations. Only after one has been all over points (a) and (b) does one typically start looking into a repeal of the first law of thermodynamics. This is very much like searching for a mundane explanation of an apparent miracle -- so far it's been a good strategy... > inlet temperature and outlet temperature. (Not the cell temperature.) > > As I said, I don't see how and why did they pulled this off, but > perhaps there is a good reason. One must be careful not to make snap > judgments about experiments of this nature. > > Here is a general introduction to the theory: > > http://jlnlabs.imars.com/mahg/article.htm > > This web site is hard to navigate. I hope that users find > LENR-CANR.org easier to navigate. > > - Jed > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 27 11:50:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9RInxoe007764; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 11:50:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9RInseq007700; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 11:49:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 11:49:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <4enk8j$ape3as mxip30a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.97,259,1125892800"; d="scan'208"; a="362220892:sNHT20770900" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: OrionWorks Organization: OrionWorks To: CC: Subject: OT: Re: Electrostatic Hover Cars Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 13:48:58 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <2gL-7C.A.Q4B.RFSYDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64155 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > The Baron sez: > > OrionWorks sez: Ok... I have some free time - it's my lunch break. > > Since we are talking about the writings of weighty authors > > might I suggest another individual, Carl Sagan, specifically > > his book "Demon-Haunted World" - > > Chapter 10 titled: "The Dragon in my Garage." > The reference to Carl Sagan reminded me that a gyroscope was used > in the Contact movie to cause a ship to teleport into the 4th dimension. Forth dimension? > This then caused me to reverse engineer Sagan's gyroscope teleportation > force field engine. Reverse engineer? > If we assume that the high frequency rotating gyroscopes placed > around the ship creates complex super vortex patterns in all 3 > directions, then we can postulate that the high frequency rotating > gyroscopes jam out normal gravity and 3d space energies in all directions > to cause the ship to be placed into the 4th dimension of pure energy where > time and space are very different. An assumption is made, and then a postulation based on that assumption. How much do you bet on your assumptions? > Sagan's gyroscopic force field engine can also be used to cause > a ship to levitate by canceling out gravity waves and energies > along the gravity plane. Perhaps to get a ship to levitate rather > than teleport in the 4th dimension some of the HF gyroscopic > force field engines may be slowed down or only rotated along > the gravity planes to just jam out gravity and not 3d space energies. In other words, if we build what we saw in the movies it must work as advertised. I get the impression that you have not read Sagan's book, "Deamon-Haunted World", specifically the chapter "The Dragon in my Garage." > Making a difference one person at a time > Get informed. Inform others. If only... Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 27 12:09:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9RJ8FtU016884; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 12:08:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9RJ8Dus016875; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 12:08:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 12:08:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051027145444.04cdbaf0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 15:07:31 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: COP >21 repeatedly - claim by Naudin In-Reply-To: <43611F1B.3020209 pobox.com> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051027132545.04ce4eb0 pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20051027135659.04ca6a70 pop.mindspring.com> <43611F1B.3020209 pobox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64156 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >>Do I have this right? See the graphs on this page: >> >>http://jlnlabs.imars.com/mahg/tests/mahg2c.htm >> >>In the graph for test run 76, the fluctuating green line is water flow in >>liters per minute. The red and blue lines do not fluctuate. They are >>"temp input" and "temp output" which I presume means cooling water > >Don't think so. That's the water he's running the reaction with; it's not >'disinterested' "cooling water". That's what I thought at first, but it seems like the gadget is closed, and this is cooling water flowing around the inner shell. Isn't that what is shown here? http://jlnlabs.imars.com/mahg/tests/index.htm This looks like a cooling water loop to me: http://jlnlabs.imars.com/mahg/setup.htm Also, the flow is so large it would have to be fracturing water at a fantastic rate. 500 to 600 ml per minute! Actually, I think that is too much for ordinary flow calorimetry but maybe they have a lot of heat to remove from the cell. 500 ml = 28 moles. If that is how much water they are disassociating, it works out to be 8 MJ per minute, or 133 kW, which is ridiculous. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 27 12:12:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9RJBs76019936; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 12:12:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9RJBbAv019685; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 12:11:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 12:11:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051027150847.04cd56d0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 15:10:52 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Nature article even worse than I thought Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64157 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The Nature article slamming cold fusion was about Putterman's recent work on fusion using the pyroelectric effect to accelerate deutrons. The reference to CF reads: "The problem with reports of tabletop fusion is that for most scientists they evoke memories of the notorious, and now largely discredited, 'cold fusion' claim made by two chemists in 1989. The chemists claimed they could achieve nuclear fusion reactions well below the extreme temperatures predicted by theorists, and that these reactions could be used as a source of unlimited energy." It includes the word "notorious" which did not come through to me via Google Alerts. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 27 13:16:02 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9RKFQDH029759; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 13:15:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9RKFJj8029617; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 13:15:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 13:15:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051027160952.04ca3d60 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 16:14:50 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Doubts Raised on Saudi Vow for More Oil Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <1OvsCD.A.oOH.WVTYDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64158 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: See: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/27/business/worldbusiness/27oil.html QUOTES: WASHINGTON, Oct. 26 - Last spring, the White House publicly embraced plans by Saudi Arabia to increase its oil production capacity significantly. But privately, some officials and others advising the government are skeptical about some of those Saudi forecasts. But doubts about Saudi Arabia's assurances of how much it can expand capacity - and for how long - have been raised in a secret intelligence report and in a separate analysis by a leading government oil adviser, according to a federal government official and the oil expert. . . . The challenges facing the Bush administration on energy come as oil companies are set to report record profits resulting from soaring prices for oil and natural gas. Exxon Mobil, the world's largest private oil company, is expected Thursday to announce a quarterly profit exceeding $8.5 billion, more than companies like Intel and Time Warner earn in a full year. . . . . . . Saudi Arabia's capacity now stands at about 11 million barrels a day. The Saudis pump about 9.5 million barrels, leaving a cushion of about 1.5 million barrels, mostly of heavier grades not very usable in the West. There is virtually no other global spare capacity. . . . But there are doubts about the Saudi assertions about how much oil they have. Data about reserves is tightly guarded, and the Saudis dismiss skeptics as uninformed. But they do not dismiss Edward O. Price Jr., the former head of exploration for Saudi Aramco and an adviser to the United States government on Persian Gulf oil during both Iraq wars. He questioned future reliance on Saudi capacity in an article in The New York Times last year and wanted to know from his former colleagues how they reached their estimate of more than 150 billion barrels of extra oil. Twenty years ago, a detailed study by geologists from four large American oil companies then in partnership with Aramco found little in the way of undiscovered oil resources, he said. Mr. Saleri, who manages Saudi reservoirs, met with Mr. Price in the United States last year. Saudi Aramco officials declined to respond to questions about the meeting. But Mr. Price said in an interview that Mr. Saleri told him that the basis for the higher oil figures was a global study in 2000 by the United States Geological Survey estimating Saudi Arabia's undiscovered resources at 87 billion barrels. Mr. Price said he responded that the estimates "by the U.S.G.S. had no credibility and far exceeded the detailed studies by the old Aramco team." The Aramco study, unlike the survey estimate, involved detailed field work. . . . From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 27 13:56:42 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9RKu8Q6022907; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 13:56:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9RKu7bd022900; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 13:56:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 13:56:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051027221948.05fb49c0 pop3.wp.pl> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 22:55:23 +0200 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Horace Subject: Re: COP >21 repeatedly - claim by Naudin In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20051027145444.04cdbaf0 pop.mindspring.com> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051027132545.04ce4eb0 pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20051027135659.04ca6a70 pop.mindspring.com> <43611F1B.3020209 pobox.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20051027145444.04cdbaf0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-WP-AV: skaner antywirusowy poczty Wirtualnej Polski S. A. X-WP-SPAM: NO AS1=NO AS2=YES(1.000000) AS3=NO AS4=NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64159 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed, The JLN's MAHD does NOT disassociate water! The water is merely a cooling medium for the anode. The heat in the MAHD is generated in a gaseous hydrogen at 0.1atm pressure between inner heated cathode and outer cold anode. This is essentially a vacuum tube, but without electrical HV polarization between cathode and anode. The MAHD cathode is a tungsten mesh heated with a low voltage and high current pulses (>100 Amps) at low duty cycle (5% seems to yield the best results) at 50Hz. It is claimed that these short >100Amp pulses resistively heat the tungsten cathode to 3000K (periodically) and thermo-disassociate molecular hydrogen into atomic hydrogen in its proximity . This heating and thermo-disassociation of the hydrogen (H2 -> 2H2) costs energy and represents an energy input to the MAHD. When the atomic hydrogen exothermically recombines into molecular hydrogen (2H -> H2) further away from the heated tungsten inner cathode (but closer to the outer anode cooled by water), it releases the heat of recombination to the outer anode and subsequently to the cooling medium (water in this case). The hydrogen also exothermically recombines between the heating pulses. The heat of hydrogen recombination represents energy output out of the MAHD. JLN measurements indicate that Thermal Energy Output divided by Electrical Energy Input is > 1 and in some cases > 20. Regards, Horace At 21:07 2005-10-27, Jed Rothwell wrote: >http://jlnlabs.imars.com/mahg/setup.htm > >Also, the flow is so large it would have to be fracturing water at a fantastic rate. 500 to 600 ml per minute! Actually, I think that is too much for ordinary flow calorimetry but maybe they have a lot of heat to remove from the cell. 500 ml = 28 moles. If that is how much water they are disassociating, it works out to be 8 MJ per minute, or 133 kW, which is ridiculous. > >- Jed > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 27 14:03:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9RL368D026012; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 14:03:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9RL3547026002; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 14:03:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 14:03:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=0m1FfJ/yes7PWLeQ344QzkPiZ/ZU6NoSHXWOwLB6zHHffcsHTx7FuktBL959XQpGjcAMabEjFWmBbU9TdkpSrCqCYFYQSIK3fLgD8ahLOX7jMr6a1+yBHRPJyzJ1ks6GJJ91CuhN0vqhWHZWg8Lo0LmnRoLN4DRY7dkReHwadIE= ; Message-ID: <20051027210244.36142.qmail web32214.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 14:02:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Merlyn Subject: Re: COP >21 repeatedly - claim by Naudin To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20051027145444.04cdbaf0 pop.mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64160 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://jlnlabs.imars.com/mahg/tests/index.htm The description right below the cross section view at the top of the page says "The MAHG tube has been specially designed : It is composed by a water cooled vaccum tube filled with hydrogen at 0.1 atm." The temp measurements are for the cooling water, the reaction occurs in the gaseous hydrogen only. I cannot find any logic for the varying coolant flow rates, perhaps that is a faulty sensor? --- Jed Rothwell wrote: > Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > >>Do I have this right? See the graphs on this page: > >> > >>http://jlnlabs.imars.com/mahg/tests/mahg2c.htm > >> > >>In the graph for test run 76, the fluctuating > green line is water flow in > >>liters per minute. The red and blue lines do not > fluctuate. They are > >>"temp input" and "temp output" which I presume > means cooling water > > > >Don't think so. That's the water he's running the > reaction with; it's not > >'disinterested' "cooling water". > > That's what I thought at first, but it seems like > the gadget is closed, and > this is cooling water flowing around the inner > shell. Isn't that what is > shown here? > > http://jlnlabs.imars.com/mahg/tests/index.htm > > This looks like a cooling water loop to me: > > http://jlnlabs.imars.com/mahg/setup.htm > > Also, the flow is so large it would have to be > fracturing water at a > fantastic rate. 500 to 600 ml per minute! Actually, > I think that is too > much for ordinary flow calorimetry but maybe they > have a lot of heat to > remove from the cell. 500 ml = 28 moles. If that is > how much water they are > disassociating, it works out to be 8 MJ per minute, > or 133 kW, which is > ridiculous. > > - Jed > > > Merlyn Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 27 14:14:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9RLDST1030521; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 14:13:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9RLDQWw030494; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 14:13:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 14:13:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051027171028.04ca70a0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 17:13:00 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: COP >21 repeatedly - claim by Naudin In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20051027221948.05fb49c0 pop3.wp.pl> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051027132545.04ce4eb0 pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20051027135659.04ca6a70 pop.mindspring.com> <43611F1B.3020209 pobox.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20051027145444.04cdbaf0 pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20051027221948.05fb49c0 pop3.wp.pl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64161 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace wrote: >Jed, > >The JLN's MAHD does NOT disassociate water! The water is merely a cooling >medium for the anode. Well, I figured as much. >The heat in the MAHD is generated in a gaseous hydrogen at 0.1atm pressure >between inner heated cathode and outer cold anode. This is essentially a >vacuum tube, but without electrical HV polarization between cathode and >anode. . . . Thanks. That is clearer than anything I can find on Naudin's website. Can you tell us why they vary the flow of water? And how? It must be a feedback mechanism. They should make this thing self-sustain. At these temperatures and power levels it should not be hard to find a Stirling engine generator or something like that. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 27 14:27:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9RLRNr1004031; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 14:27:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9RLRKHD004007; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 14:27:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 14:27:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051027172146.04ca3620 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 17:26:56 -0400 To: Jean-Louis Naudin , vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: MAHG project - why do you vary the flow of water? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64162 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jean-Louis, In your MAGH project, you keep the inlet and outlet temperatures steady while you vary the flow of water. That is an unusual way to run a flow calorimeter. Why don't you let the outlet temperature fluctuate instead? Also, how do you control the water flow? You must have some kind of feedback loop, I suppose. If the COP really is 21, as you claim, you should be able to make this machine run itself by generating electricity. Wouldn't that be exciting? At these temperatures and power levels it should not be hard to find a Stirling engine generator or something. I suppose that would be a distraction from your work. Are you going to ICCF-12? Regards, - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 27 14:30:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9RLUAJR007764; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 14:30:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9RLU8qM007742; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 14:30:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 14:30:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <4eo5r2$qs76jq mxip04a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.97,259,1125892800"; d="scan'208"; a="902011514:sNHT23640848" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: OrionWorks Organization: OrionWorks To: CC: Subject: Re: COP >21 repeatedly - claim by Naudin Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 16:27:42 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64163 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Jed Rothwell > > Horace wrote: > > >Jed, > > > >The JLN's MAHD does NOT disassociate water! The water > > is merely a cooling medium for the anode. > > Well, I figured as much. > > > >The heat in the MAHD is generated in a gaseous hydrogen > > at 0.1atm pressure between inner heated cathode and > > outer cold anode. This is essentially a > >vacuum tube, but without electrical HV polarization > > between cathode and anode. . . . > > Thanks. That is clearer than anything I can find on > Naudin's website. Can you tell us why they vary the flow > of water? And how? It must be a feedback mechanism. > > They should make this thing self-sustain. At these > temperatures and power levels it should not be hard to > find a Stirling engine generator or something like that. > > - Jed I think it bares repeating at this point in time that we have heard very little concerning the status of MAHG since summer, or at least what has been placed out at Naudin's web site. Many many moons have crossed the skies since the last intriguing updates titillated protracted discussions within the Vort group. I seem to recall that many questions had been raised in regards to how certain COP values were derived. Doubts were voiced, as well as they should be. AFAIK, there have been no definitive responses from JLN labs (or from anyone who might be in a position to know) that might help resolve most of those questions spelled out in this discussion group. That fact that we have heard nothing since summer does not, IMHO, bode well with the alleged veracity of the claims attributed to the MAHG. With that said, nothing would please me more than to have my cynicism proven dead wrong. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 27 14:56:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9RLuL2F019302; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 14:56:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9RLuHhc019263; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 14:56:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 14:56:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <4enei5$1e030vk mxip02a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.97,259,1125892800"; d="scan'208"; a="1543603188:sNHT240088432" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: OrionWorks Organization: OrionWorks To: CC: Subject: D2Fusion back in the news...again? Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 16:55:53 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64164 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: D2fusion is back in the news again. Can't tell if it's just a re-hash of old news. See General Discussion, first article by Bon Clayton Kuhlman at: http://www.opensourceenergy.com/C17/News%20Viewer/default.aspx?ID=1012 http://tinyurl.com/d9nlf Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 27 15:00:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9RLxoYa020960; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 15:00:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9RLxjut020922; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 14:59:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 14:59:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <4enl2a$1f5oemi mxip03a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.97,259,1125892800"; d="scan'208"; a="1583102674:sNHT17249176" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: OrionWorks Organization: OrionWorks To: Subject: Re: D2Fusion back in the news...again? Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 16:59:13 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64165 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: OrionWorks sez: > D2fusion is back in the news again. > > Can't tell if it's just a re-hash of old news. > > See General Discussion, first article by Bon Clayton Kuhlman at: > > http://www.opensourceenergy.com/C17/News%20Viewer/default.aspx?ID=1012 > > http://tinyurl.com/d9nlf > Actually I think this is just someone's BLOG. Never mind... Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 27 15:14:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9RMDeo5027143; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 15:13:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9RMDcLI027114; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 15:13:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 15:13:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 15:12:48 -0700 From: Mark S Bilk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: COP >21 repeatedly - claim by Naudin Message-ID: <20051027221248.GA28617 linux.hsd1.ca.comcast.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Organization: http://www.cosmicpenguin.com/911 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64166 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I think there's a big question of how Naudin measures the input power, given that his input is pulsed. He doesn't explicitly say how he measures it. http://www.gifnet.ch/lab/mahg/mahg2d.htm Suppose you have a pulsed DC source connected to a resistor. Vp = peak voltage Va = average voltage R = resistance Ip = peak current Ia = average current Pp = peak power Pa = average power Po = thermal power output d = duty cycle, less than or equal to 1 Then Pp = (Vp^2) / R ( ^ is exponentiation) Pa = d * (Vp^2) / R ( * is multiplication) Po = Pa Va = d * Vp Ip = Vp / R Ia = d * (Vp / R) Now suppose someone thinks that you can measure the average power by multiplying the average voltage times the average current. Let's call this Pf (f for fake or false). Pf = Va * Ia = d^2 * (Vp^2) / R Pf = d * Pa Pf = d * Po If the duty cycle is the 5% that Naudin uses, the fake average input power is only 5% of the actual average input power. And if the increase in water heat measured by calorimetry is due solely to resistive heating, i.e., Po = Pa -- the output power equals the true average input power -- then the output power divided by the fake average input power would equal 1/d. In other words, if COP means output power divided by input power (I can't find an actual definition of COP on the Web), then COPf = fake COP = Po / Pf = 1/d For Naudin's 5% duty cycle, the fake COP would be 20. He measures about 21. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 27 15:17:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9RMHH51029123; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 15:17:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9RMHFsk029098; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 15:17:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 15:17:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <035d01c5db44$2b47c4f0$a4b1e118 D54BYG11> Reply-To: "John Coviello" From: "John Coviello" To: "Vortex" Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 18:17:05 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_035A_01C5DB22.A2C70490" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-From: johnwc patmedia.net Subject: Deriving Power from Atmospheric Pressure Differences Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64167 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_035A_01C5DB22.A2C70490 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Deriving Power from Atmospheric Pressure Differences over = Geographically-Spaced Sites New method of power generation will harness the difference in = atmospheric pressure between locations 100 to 200 miles apart, with = reliability comparable to coal, nuclear, gas, and hydro, but at a cost = substantially lower, and with no pollution. "This is the first alternative energy technology to come along that has = a reliability factor adequate to actually serve as a 'core' generating = technology, and not just as a back up or supplement to the grid."=20 -- John R. Crocker, COO Cold Energy, LLC, Oct. 26, 2005 by Sterling D. Allan Open Source Energy News -- Exclusive Diagram from Mamo's patent illustrating three conduits over vast = distances. In practice, the distances could be much shorter. Pipes would convey the air which would travel at supersonic speeds. Patent 6,696,766=20 Abstract A system for the generation of energy based upon the differences in the = atmospheric pressure at geographically spaced apart sites, referred = herein as the "Atmospheric Cold Megawatt" energy producing system of the = invention (hereinafter "ACM") comprises at least one long conduit, in = the order of many miles long, preferably of at least two portions of = different internal areas capable of conducting significant amounts of = air there through. In operation the air flow in the conduit will = accelerate to a high velocity wind without the consumption of any = materials and without the use of any mechanical moving parts. A power = converter, such as a wind turbine, in the conduit converts the high wind = velocity generated by even minute pressure differences into energy of = any desired type such as electricity. The opposite open ends of the = conduit are located at geographically spaced sites preferably selected = on the basis of historical information indicating an historical useful = difference in barometric pressure. A plurality of conduits each having = open ends in different geographically spaced sites may be interconnected = to maximize the existing pressure differences that will assure higher = and more consistent levels of energy production. Anyone who has seen a weather report has seen maps with high pressure = systems on one part of the map, marked by a large, bold H; and a low = pressure system on another part of the map, marked with a large, bold L. = And there are the isobars - those wavy white lines that lie across the = space between the two different pressure zones, indicating wind that = flows naturally from the one to the other. Just think if you could run a pipe between the high and the low area and = spin a turbine from the flow of air between the two locations. Unique Design Gains High-Grade Patent That is what Cold Energy, LLC, is setting forth to do, and they have a = "no prior art" patent to support them. Rarely is a "no prior art" patent awarded. Most are "me-too" designs, = which don't really have much that is new to offer, just a tweaking of = earlier work. However, the late Anthony C. Mamo, co-founder of Cold Energy, LLC, and = recipient of 124 high tech patents, was granted such a patent for his = Atmospheric Cold Megawatts (ACM)T system for generating energy from = differences in atmospheric pressure. I was able to interview John R. Crocker, Chief Operations Officer and = Managing Partner of Cold Energy, as he sat in a coffee shop in Fort = Lauderdale, grabbing a meal. Ironically, the power is knocked out in his = home from Hurricane Wilma. The scientific modeling Cold Energy has done predicts that this approach = of tapping atmospheric pressure differences can yield copious amounts of = energy. The effect is not just from weather differences, but can be seen = in elevation differences as well -- like water running down hill. What about cost? Crocker said that a ACM plant could be built for about as much as it = costs to build a coal plant of the same output capacity, but that the = maintenance and operational costs would be far less -- and the fuel cost = would be zero, including all associated costs pertaining to fuel: = transport, storage, and other overhead -- all zero. And, there would be = no pollution from an ACM plant. Whereas coal plant-generated electricity = usually runs at around 4.5 to 6 cents per kilowatt-hour, the ACM plant = would run at less than a penny per kilowatt-hour. With two to three decades of data from NOAA (National Oceanic and = Atmospheric Administration) at their disposal, the company has ran = analyses over a number of different locations, and with the help of = interns hopes to have modeling for two to three locations for most = countries of the world soon. "In reviewing that data, we have been = pleasantly surprised at how many areas have a consistently adequate = atmospheric pressure gradient between two or three places," said = Crocker. Generating a Mighty Wind For example, studying five years of atmospheric readings from Flagstaff = and Tucson, Arizona, with an elevation difference of 3,700 feet, = separated by 250 miles, they found the pressure difference to be in the = range of 0.5 to 0.7 psi (pounds per square inch) on a daily basis, never = going below 0.5 psi. "That is sufficient to generate a wind of 2,500 mph (miles per hour), = which is 3.5 times the speed of sound," Crocker said. "Having just been in a hurricane with winds of 100 mph, I can tell you = that I can hardly fathom the power of wind traveling at such high = velocity," Crocker said. The pipes would be about 2.5 meters in diameter, and the air flow would = be enough to generate around 1,000 to 1,400 megawatts of electricity -- = enough to power at least 250,000 homes consuming 5 kilowatts on average, = which is more than enough to supply the combined populations of 53,000 = and 487,000, respectively, in the two Arizona towns mentioned. In flat areas, such as Kansas, where there are no substantial elevation = changes even over hundreds of miles, the high-low pressure differential = from weather patterns can harness a similar effect in a conduit of = around 250 miles in length. And by having two or three such conduits fan = out in different directions, the power company can increase the chance = that, every day, at least one of those conduits will have enough of a = pressure difference between its two ends to produce the energy = requirement that the plant is designed to produce. The conduits are designed to be unidirectional in flow, tapering = gradually to a smaller diameter to increase the air flow speed. Hence, = in a flatland scenario such as Kansas, there would need to be two = pipelines to allow for flow in either direction. Where change of elevation is built into the landscape, the consistent = difference in atmospheric pressure from plain to mountaintop would trump = high/low differences of any transient weather-system, virtually every = time. Nature's Challenges for System Designer I asked Crocker about the heat that would be generated by air flowing at = such high speeds. He said that the patent addresses this issue, and is = part of the brilliance of the system, which has almost no moving parts = other than the turbines that harness the energy. Another related issue is condensation due to very cold winter and = mountain temperatures. Mamo designed flaps that would open into the = conduit when needed to prevent the build-up of ice. By creating = resistance for the rapidly flowing air inside, the flaps would heat up = the conduit without needing any other heat source to be applied. The humidity of the air flowing through the pipes is also apparently an = issue that needs to be addressed in the design of a system. Air that is = too dry can be problematic [reason?]. Air that is too humid is too heavy = for proper performance. One might think about animals venturing too close to the intake portal. = Fences and netting will thus need to be an integral part of the design. = As for insects who venture too close, they are in for quite a ride. A = free ride on free energy. Regulatory and Legal Issues In an ideal world, the ACM conduits would be laid down on existing = easements such as for gas pipelines, high-power lines, or next to rail = lines. However, this is where things get rather sticky, as science and = technology are trumped by politics and competition. Establishing new = easements is mostly out of the question. Gaining permissions for using existing easements is not easy. "In the = U.S. there is a complex patchwork of regulatory bodies, from cities, = counties, states, and regional governments", said Crocker. While the ACM might not pollute the air or water, the noise it produces = will be an issue that will need to be addressed. As the supersonic wind = goes howling through this long pipe, it could act like a huge trumpet. = If people are worried about the noise from windmills, what will they say = about this Cold Energy conduit if it's anywhere near a populated area? The complication of obtaining clearances in an industrialized society is = one of the primary reasons Cold Energy will probably install its first = generating conduits in Africa or Asia. If all goes as planned, the first = installation could be completed within two to three years of the = contract signing, which is presently in negotiation. There are also smaller-scale applications of the patent concept, such as = energy generation in mines from the air gradients there. "Prominent physicists in two or three American Universities have = reviewed the concept and nearly all of them are in love with it," said = Crocker. "This is the real deal." Business Independence Crocker says that the company has not yet pushed for media exposure, but = they have received a lot of interest from investors. Some have even = offered to buy out the patent. "We will never do that," said Crocker. = The company wishes to retain ownership of the patent, and only license = out the rights to use the patent. "I know of two solar companies who had killer technologies which were = bought up by super large energy companies, only to be buried," said = Crocker. "We will not let that happen." While he anticipates that there will be a huge opportunity for profit in = this business, Crocker says that the company philosophy is more = earth-destiny oriented. "Energy is the biggest issue facing the planet = right now, and we have what could be one of the best solutions." Crocker said that Mamo brought this technology forward as the = culmination of his very fruitful career as an inventor. "His specialty = was taking very complex engineering problems and make them as simple as = possible, with as few moving parts as possible." "This was Tony Mamo's final gift to mankind." Cold Energy, LLC was formed to manage the development and implementation = of this invention, and its surrounding technology. With Mamo's passing = this last May, his daughter, Therese Schroeder-Sheker, is now picking up = where he left off, as CEO and managing partner of the company along with = Crocker. Coming from a strong entrepreneurial background, Schroeder-Sheker has = been involved with the company since its inception, and is particularly = adept at navigating the interface between academia and the private = sector. Having founded and managed several companies, she has been = responsible for sales, marketing, finance, and institutional = negotiations. Mr. Crocker has been in involved in several engineering startups. His = work in the utility, technology, and finance sectors includes running = internet operations in a division of the Pittsburgh energy giant DQE, = and more recently as a Managing Director at Merrill Lynch. He brings = significant experience in business development, enterprise project = management, corporate governance, and international operations to the = table. Also on the team is Dr. Robert W. Johnson, who serves Managing Director = of Engineering. His background includes such diverse areas as Inorganic = and Analytical Chemistry, Metallurgy, Polymer Physics, Rheology (flow = behavior of solids and fluids), and Statistics. He worked closely with = Mr. Mamo to insure that the patent application was solidly grounded on = proven engineering principles. Edward R. Hearn, JD has agreed to take on additional responsibilities in = the Office of the General Counsel, and will be the senior attorney = charged with the monitoring and enforcement of the ACM patent. Mr. Hearn = brings a strong background in intellectual property and industrial = design law. # # #=20 ACKNOWLEDGEMENT Special thanks to Mary-Sue Haliburton for her editorial input. SOURCES Email submission by company=20 Phone interview with John R. Crocker, Chief Operations Officer and = Managing Partner of Cold Energy, LLC (Oct. 26, 2005)=20 http://www.coldenergyllc.com/press.htm (19 May 2005)=20 http://www.coldenergyllc.com - official company website=20 US Patent #6,696,766 - "Atmospheric cold megawatts (ACM) system TM for = generating energy from differences in atmospheric pressure" (PDF) = (February 24, 2004)=20 Other patents by Anthony C. Mamo=20 CONTACT: http://www.coldenergyllc.com/contact.htm Cold Energy LLC P.O. Box 987 Mt. Angel, Oregon 97362 USA Phone: +1.503.845.2980 Fax: +1.775.218.2591 Email: info coldenergyllc.com=20 ------=_NextPart_000_035A_01C5DB22.A2C70490 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Deriving Power from Atmospheric Pressure = Differences over=20 Geographically-Spaced Sites

New method of power generation will = harness=20 the difference in atmospheric pressure between locations 100 to 200 = miles apart,=20 with reliability comparable to coal, nuclear, gas, and hydro, but at a = cost=20 substantially lower, and with no pollution.

"This is the first=20 alternative energy technology to come along that has a reliability = factor=20 adequate to actually serve as a 'core' generating technology, and not = just as a=20 back up or supplement to the grid."
-- John R. Crocker, = COO

Cold=20 Energy, LLC, Oct. 26, 2005
by Sterling D. Allan
Open Source Energy = News --=20 Exclusive

Diagram from Mamo's patent illustrating three conduits = over=20 vast distances. In practice, the distances could be much = shorter.

Pipes=20 would convey the air which would travel at supersonic = speeds.


Patent=20 6,696,766
Abstract
A system for the generation of energy based = upon the=20 differences in the atmospheric pressure at geographically spaced apart = sites,=20 referred herein as the "Atmospheric Cold Megawatt" energy producing = system of=20 the invention (hereinafter "ACM") comprises at least one long conduit, = in the=20 order of many miles long, preferably of at least two portions of = different=20 internal areas capable of conducting significant amounts of air there = through.=20 In operation the air flow in the conduit will accelerate to a high = velocity wind=20 without the consumption of any materials and without the use of any = mechanical=20 moving parts. A power converter, such as a wind turbine, in the conduit = converts=20 the high wind velocity generated by even minute pressure differences = into energy=20 of any desired type such as electricity. The opposite open ends of the = conduit=20 are located at geographically spaced sites preferably selected on the = basis of=20 historical information indicating an historical useful difference in = barometric=20 pressure. A plurality of conduits each having open ends in different=20 geographically spaced sites may be interconnected to maximize the = existing=20 pressure differences that will assure higher and more consistent levels = of=20 energy production.


Anyone who has seen a weather report has = seen maps=20 with high pressure systems on one part of the map, marked by a large, = bold H;=20 and a low pressure system on another part of the map, marked with a = large, bold=20 L. And there are the isobars =96 those wavy white lines that lie across = the space=20 between the two different pressure zones, indicating wind that flows = naturally=20 from the one to the other.

Just think if you could run a pipe = between the=20 high and the low area and spin a turbine from the flow of air between = the two=20 locations.


Unique Design Gains High-Grade Patent

That = is what=20 Cold Energy, LLC, is setting forth to do, and they have a "no prior art" = patent=20 to support them.

Rarely is a "no prior art" patent awarded. Most = are=20 "me-too" designs, which don=92t really have much that is new to offer, = just a=20 tweaking of earlier work.

However, the late Anthony C. Mamo, = co-founder=20 of Cold Energy, LLC, and recipient of 124 high tech patents, was granted = such a=20 patent for his Atmospheric Cold Megawatts (ACM)=99 system for generating = energy=20 from differences in atmospheric pressure.

I was able to interview = John R.=20 Crocker, Chief Operations Officer and Managing Partner of Cold Energy, = as he sat=20 in a coffee shop in Fort Lauderdale, grabbing a meal. Ironically, the = power is=20 knocked out in his home from Hurricane Wilma.

The scientific = modeling=20 Cold Energy has done predicts that this approach of tapping atmospheric = pressure=20 differences can yield copious amounts of energy. The effect is not just = from=20 weather differences, but can be seen in elevation differences as well -- = like=20 water running down hill.


What about cost?

Crocker said = that a=20 ACM plant could be built for about as much as it costs to build a coal = plant of=20 the same output capacity, but that the maintenance and operational costs = would=20 be far less -- and the fuel cost would be zero, including all associated = costs=20 pertaining to fuel: transport, storage, and other overhead -- all zero. = And,=20 there would be no pollution from an ACM plant. Whereas coal = plant-generated=20 electricity usually runs at around 4.5 to 6 cents per kilowatt-hour, the = ACM=20 plant would run at less than a penny per kilowatt-hour.

With two = to three=20 decades of data from NOAA (National Oceanic and Atmospheric = Administration) at=20 their disposal, the company has ran analyses over a number of different=20 locations, and with the help of interns hopes to have modeling for two = to three=20 locations for most countries of the world soon. "In reviewing that data, = we have=20 been pleasantly surprised at how many areas have a consistently adequate = atmospheric pressure gradient between two or three places," said=20 Crocker.


Generating a Mighty Wind

For example, = studying five=20 years of atmospheric readings from Flagstaff and Tucson, Arizona, with = an=20 elevation difference of 3,700 feet, separated by 250 miles, they found = the=20 pressure difference to be in the range of 0.5 to 0.7 psi (pounds per = square=20 inch) on a daily basis, never going below 0.5 psi.

"That is = sufficient to=20 generate a wind of 2,500 mph (miles per hour), which is 3.5 times the = speed of=20 sound," Crocker said.

"Having just been in a hurricane with winds = of 100=20 mph, I can tell you that I can hardly fathom the power of wind traveling = at such=20 high velocity," Crocker said.

The pipes would be about 2.5 meters = in=20 diameter, and the air flow would be enough to generate around 1,000 to = 1,400=20 megawatts of electricity -- enough to power at least 250,000 homes = consuming 5=20 kilowatts on average, which is more than enough to supply the combined=20 populations of 53,000 and 487,000, respectively, in the two Arizona = towns=20 mentioned.

In flat areas, such as Kansas, where there are no = substantial=20 elevation changes even over hundreds of miles, the high-low pressure=20 differential from weather patterns can harness a similar effect in a = conduit of=20 around 250 miles in length. And by having two or three such conduits fan = out in=20 different directions, the power company can increase the chance that, = every day,=20 at least one of those conduits will have enough of a pressure difference = between=20 its two ends to produce the energy requirement that the plant is = designed to=20 produce.

The conduits are designed to be unidirectional in flow, = tapering=20 gradually to a smaller diameter to increase the air flow speed. Hence, = in a=20 flatland scenario such as Kansas, there would need to be two pipelines = to allow=20 for flow in either direction.

Where change of elevation is built = into the=20 landscape, the consistent difference in atmospheric pressure from plain = to=20 mountaintop would trump high/low differences of any transient = weather-system,=20 virtually every time.


Nature=92s Challenges for System=20 Designer

I asked Crocker about the heat that would be generated = by air=20 flowing at such high speeds. He said that the patent addresses this = issue, and=20 is part of the brilliance of the system, which has almost no moving = parts other=20 than the turbines that harness the energy.

Another related issue = is=20 condensation due to very cold winter and mountain temperatures. Mamo = designed=20 flaps that would open into the conduit when needed to prevent the = build-up of=20 ice. By creating resistance for the rapidly flowing air inside, the = flaps would=20 heat up the conduit without needing any other heat source to be=20 applied.

The humidity of the air flowing through the pipes is = also=20 apparently an issue that needs to be addressed in the design of a = system. Air=20 that is too dry can be problematic [reason?]. Air that is too humid is = too heavy=20 for proper performance.

One might think about animals venturing = too close=20 to the intake portal. Fences and netting will thus need to be an = integral part=20 of the design. As for insects who venture too close, they are in for = quite a=20 ride. A free ride on free energy.


Regulatory and Legal=20 Issues

In an ideal world, the ACM conduits would be laid down on = existing=20 easements such as for gas pipelines, high-power lines, or next to rail=20 lines.

However, this is where things get rather sticky, as = science and=20 technology are trumped by politics and competition. Establishing new = easements=20 is mostly out of the question.

Gaining permissions for using = existing=20 easements is not easy. "In the U.S. there is a complex patchwork of = regulatory=20 bodies, from cities, counties, states, and regional governments", said=20 Crocker.

While the ACM might not pollute the air or water, the = noise it=20 produces will be an issue that will need to be addressed. As the = supersonic wind=20 goes howling through this long pipe, it could act like a huge trumpet. = If people=20 are worried about the noise from windmills, what will they say about = this Cold=20 Energy conduit if it=92s anywhere near a populated area?

The = complication=20 of obtaining clearances in an industrialized society is one of the = primary=20 reasons Cold Energy will probably install its first generating conduits = in=20 Africa or Asia. If all goes as planned, the first installation could be=20 completed within two to three years of the contract signing, which is = presently=20 in negotiation.

There are also smaller-scale applications of the = patent=20 concept, such as energy generation in mines from the air gradients=20 there.

"Prominent physicists in two or three American = Universities have=20 reviewed the concept and nearly all of them are in love with it," said = Crocker.=20 "This is the real deal."


Business Independence

Crocker = says=20 that the company has not yet pushed for media exposure, but they have = received a=20 lot of interest from investors. Some have even offered to buy out the = patent.=20 "We will never do that," said Crocker. The company wishes to retain = ownership of=20 the patent, and only license out the rights to use the patent.

"I = know of=20 two solar companies who had killer technologies which were bought up by = super=20 large energy companies, only to be buried," said Crocker. "We will not = let that=20 happen."

While he anticipates that there will be a huge = opportunity for=20 profit in this business, Crocker says that the company philosophy is = more=20 earth-destiny oriented. "Energy is the biggest issue facing the planet = right=20 now, and we have what could be one of the best = solutions."

Crocker said=20 that Mamo brought this technology forward as the culmination of his very = fruitful career as an inventor. "His specialty was taking very complex=20 engineering problems and make them as simple as possible, with as few = moving=20 parts as possible."

"This was Tony Mamo's final gift to=20 mankind."

Cold Energy, LLC was formed to manage the development = and=20 implementation of this invention, and its surrounding technology. With = Mamo's=20 passing this last May, his daughter, Therese Schroeder-Sheker, is now = picking up=20 where he left off, as CEO and managing partner of the company along with = Crocker.

Coming from a strong entrepreneurial background,=20 Schroeder-Sheker has been involved with the company since its inception, = and is=20 particularly adept at navigating the interface between academia and the = private=20 sector. Having founded and managed several companies, she has been = responsible=20 for sales, marketing, finance, and institutional = negotiations.

Mr.=20 Crocker has been in involved in several engineering startups. His work = in the=20 utility, technology, and finance sectors includes running internet = operations in=20 a division of the Pittsburgh energy giant DQE, and more recently as a = Managing=20 Director at Merrill Lynch. He brings significant experience in business=20 development, enterprise project management, corporate governance, and=20 international operations to the table.

Also on the team is Dr. = Robert W.=20 Johnson, who serves Managing Director of Engineering. His background = includes=20 such diverse areas as Inorganic and Analytical Chemistry, Metallurgy, = Polymer=20 Physics, Rheology (flow behavior of solids and fluids), and Statistics. = He=20 worked closely with Mr. Mamo to insure that the patent application was = solidly=20 grounded on proven engineering principles.

Edward R. Hearn, JD = has agreed=20 to take on additional responsibilities in the Office of the General = Counsel, and=20 will be the senior attorney charged with the monitoring and enforcement = of the=20 ACM patent. Mr. Hearn brings a strong background in intellectual = property and=20 industrial design law.

# # # =

ACKNOWLEDGEMENT

Special=20 thanks to Mary-Sue Haliburton for her editorial=20 input.

SOURCES

Email submission by company
Phone = interview=20 with John R. Crocker, Chief Operations Officer and Managing Partner of = Cold=20 Energy, LLC (Oct. 26, 2005)
http://www.coldenergyllc.= com/press.htm=20 (19 May 2005)
http://www.coldenergyllc.com = - official=20 company website
US Patent #6,696,766 - "Atmospheric cold megawatts = (ACM)=20 system TM for generating energy from differences in atmospheric = pressure" (PDF)=20 (February 24, 2004)
Other patents by Anthony C. Mamo=20

CONTACT:

http://www.coldenergyll= c.com/contact.htm

Cold=20 Energy LLC
P.O. Box 987
Mt. Angel, Oregon 97362
USA
Phone:=20 +1.503.845.2980
Fax: +1.775.218.2591
Email: info coldenergyllc.com =
 
------=_NextPart_000_035A_01C5DB22.A2C70490-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 27 16:02:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9RN1Ytm013509; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 16:01:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9RN1WXP013490; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 16:01:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 16:01:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001001c5db4a$4e464ca0$6d027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re; deriving Power from Atmospheric PD Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 18:00:58 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000C_01C5DB20.62680DB0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.5 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64168 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C5DB20.62680DB0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000D_01C5DB20.62699450" ------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C5DB20.62699450 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankJohn Coviello wrote.. For example, studying five years of atmospheric readings from Flagstaff = and Tucson, Arizona, with an elevation difference of 3,700 feet, = separated by 250 miles, they found the pressure difference to be in the = range of 0.5 to 0.7 psi (pounds per square inch) on a daily basis, never = going below 0.5 psi. "That is sufficient to generate a wind of 2,500 mph (miles per hour), = which is 3.5 times the speed of sound," Crocker said. "Having just been in a hurricane with winds of 100 mph, I can tell you = that I can hardly fathom the power of wind traveling at such high = velocity," Crocker said. The pipes would be about 2.5 meters in diameter, and the air flow would = be enough to generate around 1,000 to 1,400 megawatts of electricity -- = enough to power at least 250,000 homes consuming 5 kilowatts on average, = which is more than enough to supply the combined populations of 53,000 = and 487,000, respectively, in the two Arizona towns mentioned. Terminal velocity of standard air can be reached at near 5 psid. = Calculating an air flow through a 2.5 meter diameter pipe, 250 mile long = at a flow of 2500 miles per hour give me a headache and a big question = mark??? Anyone at the patent office notice what the head loss would be = ?? How about the weight of air at respective elevations ?? Hmmm. Rube = Goldberg would love it. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C5DB20.62699450 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
John Coviello wrote..

For example, studying five years of atmospheric readings from = Flagstaff and=20 Tucson, Arizona, with an elevation difference of 3,700 feet, separated = by 250=20 miles, they found the pressure difference to be in the range of 0.5 to = 0.7 psi=20 (pounds per square inch) on a daily basis, never going below 0.5=20 psi.

"That is sufficient to generate a wind of 2,500 mph (miles = per=20 hour), which is 3.5 times the speed of sound," Crocker = said.

"Having just=20 been in a hurricane with winds of 100 mph, I can tell you that I can = hardly=20 fathom the power of wind traveling at such high velocity," Crocker=20 said.

The pipes would be about 2.5 meters in diameter, and the = air flow=20 would be enough to generate around 1,000 to 1,400 megawatts of = electricity --=20 enough to power at least 250,000 homes consuming 5 kilowatts on average, = which=20 is more than enough to supply the combined populations of 53,000 and = 487,000,=20 respectively, in the two Arizona towns mentioned.

 

Terminal velocity of standard air can be reached at near 5 psid. = Calculating=20 an air flow through a 2.5 meter diameter pipe, 250 mile long at a flow = of 2500=20 miles per hour give me a headache and a big question mark??? Anyone at = the=20 patent office notice what the head loss would be ?? How about the weight = of air=20 at respective elevations ?? Hmmm. Rube Goldberg would love it.

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C5DB20.62699450-- ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C5DB20.62680DB0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000b01c5db4a$4b31e0b0$6d027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C5DB20.62680DB0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 27 16:06:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9RN6P3F015691; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 16:06:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9RN6OlC015672; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 16:06:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 16:06:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051028010351.05f9f6d0 pop3.wp.pl> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 01:06:02 +0200 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Horace Subject: Re: COP >21 repeatedly - claim by Naudin In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20051027171028.04ca70a0 pop.mindspring.com> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051027132545.04ce4eb0 pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20051027135659.04ca6a70 pop.mindspring.com> <43611F1B.3020209 pobox.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20051027145444.04cdbaf0 pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20051027221948.05fb49c0 pop3.wp.pl> <6.2.1.2.2.20051027171028.04ca70a0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-WP-AV: skaner antywirusowy poczty Wirtualnej Polski S. A. X-WP-SPAM: NO AS1=NO AS2=YES(1.000000) AS3=NO AS4=NO Resent-Message-ID: <3DDrKC.A.00D.v1VYDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64169 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The varying water flow is caused by turbulence in the heat exchanger. Apparently the anode get hot enough to vaporize some of the water at the contact layer leading to local steam bubbles that interfere with smooth water flow. Regards, Horace At 23:13 2005-10-27, you wrote: >Horace wrote: > >>Jed, >> >>The JLN's MAHD does NOT disassociate water! The water is merely a cooling medium for the anode. > >Well, I figured as much. > > >>The heat in the MAHD is generated in a gaseous hydrogen at 0.1atm pressure between inner heated cathode and outer cold anode. This is essentially a vacuum tube, but without electrical HV polarization between cathode and anode. . . . > >Thanks. That is clearer than anything I can find on Naudin's website. Can you tell us why they vary the flow of water? And how? It must be a feedback mechanism. > >They should make this thing self-sustain. At these temperatures and power levels it should not be hard to find a Stirling engine generator or something like that. > >- Jed > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 27 16:17:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9RNH9GL021026; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 16:17:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9RNH5K0021004; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 16:17:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 16:17:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051028010657.05fcaa90 pop3.wp.pl> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 01:16:45 +0200 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Horace Subject: Re: MAHG project - why do you vary the flow of water? In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20051027172146.04ca3620 pop.mindspring.com> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051027172146.04ca3620 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-WP-AV: skaner antywirusowy poczty Wirtualnej Polski S. A. X-WP-SPAM: NO AS1=NO AS2=YES(1.000000) AS3=NO AS4=NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64170 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I think that generating 4Watts of 100Amps pulses, out of 3degC temperature differential of the cooling water is quite an engineering feat despite its theoretical possibility. How big of a Stirling Engine would one need to accomplish this? I always disliked Mr.Carnot, Horace At 23:26 2005-10-27, Jed Rothwell wrote: >If the COP really is 21, as you claim, you should be able to make this machine run itself by generating electricity. Wouldn't that be exciting? At these temperatures and power levels it should not be hard to find a Stirling engine generator or something. I suppose that would be a distraction from your work. > >Are you going to ICCF-12? > >Regards, > > >- Jed > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 27 16:47:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9RNkbgi031507; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 16:46:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9RNkZDf031476; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 16:46:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 16:46:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051028013153.05fe8eb0 pop3.wp.pl> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 01:46:13 +0200 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Horace Subject: Re: COP >21 repeatedly - claim by Naudin In-Reply-To: <20051027221248.GA28617 linux.hsd1.ca.comcast.net> References: <20051027221248.GA28617 linux.hsd1.ca.comcast.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-WP-AV: skaner antywirusowy poczty Wirtualnej Polski S. A. X-WP-SPAM: NO AS1=NO(Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1) AS2=YES(1.000000) AS3=NO AS4=NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64171 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mark, Well, I think JLN measures the input power the right way. That is - by integration of the instantaneous products of current and voltage, using his dual trace oscilloscope. See the following picture on his web site. http://jlnlabs.imars.com/mahg/tests/mahgjln4.jpg However, he seems to contradict himself by stating that his analog and digital ammeters and voltmeters agree with his oscilloscope within 2%. http://jlnlabs.imars.com/mahg/tests/index.htm Surely, the power calculated by multiplying the 2-channels of an oscilloscope, and the power calculated by multiplying the Average or the RMS current & voltage shown by analog/digital meters, SHOULD BE DIFFERENT for 5-10% duty cycle pulses!!! Mark, since you have your calcs handy, could you estimate the typical power calculation error when using data from TrueRMS ammeter and voltmeter for 5% rectangular pulses, like you just did for the Averaging ammeter and voltmeter ? Regards, Horace At 00:12 2005-10-28, Mark Bilk wrote: >I think there's a big question of how Naudin measures the input >power, given that his input is pulsed. He doesn't explicitly >say how he measures it. > >http://www.gifnet.ch/lab/mahg/mahg2d.htm > >Suppose you have a pulsed DC source connected to a resistor. > >Vp = peak voltage >Va = average voltage >R = resistance >Ip = peak current >Ia = average current >Pp = peak power >Pa = average power >Po = thermal power output >d = duty cycle, less than or equal to 1 > >Then > >Pp = (Vp^2) / R ( ^ is exponentiation) > >Pa = d * (Vp^2) / R ( * is multiplication) > >Po = Pa > >Va = d * Vp > >Ip = Vp / R > >Ia = d * (Vp / R) > >Now suppose someone thinks that you can measure the average power >by multiplying the average voltage times the average current. >Let's call this Pf (f for fake or false). > >Pf = Va * Ia = d^2 * (Vp^2) / R > >Pf = d * Pa > >Pf = d * Po > >If the duty cycle is the 5% that Naudin uses, the fake average >input power is only 5% of the actual average input power. And if >the increase in water heat measured by calorimetry is due solely >to resistive heating, i.e., Po = Pa -- the output power equals the >true average input power -- then the output power divided by the >fake average input power would equal 1/d. > >In other words, if COP means output power divided by input power >(I can't find an actual definition of COP on the Web), then > >COPf = fake COP = Po / Pf = 1/d > >For Naudin's 5% duty cycle, the fake COP would be 20. > >He measures about 21. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 27 19:23:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9S2N7Pp009579; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 19:23:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9S2MebE009380; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 19:22:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 19:22:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43618B53.5040406 pobox.com> Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 22:22:11 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.10) Gecko/20050719 Fedora/1.7.10-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: COP >21 repeatedly - claim by Naudin References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051027132545.04ce4eb0@pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20051027135659.04ca6a70@pop.mindspring.com> <43611F1B.3020209@pobox.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20051027145444.04cdbaf0@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20051027145444.04cdbaf0 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <8wcg3C.A.bSC.vtYYDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64172 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > >>> Do I have this right? See the graphs on this page: >>> >>> http://jlnlabs.imars.com/mahg/tests/mahg2c.htm >>> >>> In the graph for test run 76, the fluctuating green line is water >>> flow in liters per minute. The red and blue lines do not fluctuate. >>> They are "temp input" and "temp output" which I presume means >>> cooling water >> >> >> Don't think so. That's the water he's running the reaction with; >> it's not 'disinterested' "cooling water". > > > That's what I thought at first, but it seems like the gadget is > closed, and this is cooling water flowing around the inner shell. > Isn't that what is shown here? Er hrmph... Yes, you're right, that is what is shown. "Water cooled" device, it says, and the reactor is filled with H2 gas... But getting back to the rock-solid input/output temps -- the input temp is certainly controlled, by that outboard cooler shown in one or two diagrams. The temperature rise is a degree or less in most runs, so the output temperature is also _almost_ constant. Let's take a closer close look at a couple of these graphs; I think they make sense. First red/blue/green graph is for run 76, which you just mentioned, and it's about a quarter of the way down this page: http://jlnlabs.imars.com/mahg/tests/mahg2c.htm The green (water flow) line wiggles down just after time 0:43, by a substantial amount. Looking at the righthand scale, we see that it actually went from about 0.56 liters/min to about 0.45 liters/min, a drop of about 20%. The temp rise is about 1 degree. If everything's linear -- probably a bad assumption, but let's assume it anyway and see where it leads -- the temp rise should have gone from 1 degree to about 1.2 degrees, or a bit less, since the green line didn't _stay_ down at 0.45 l/m for very long at all. That's a pretty small blip; would we even see it? Look closely at the red line on that graph -- it does, indeed, blip up a little bit, shortly after the green line drops. I can't tell you if it goes up by 0.2 degrees, relative to the blue line, but it's probably pretty close. Let's jump down to the last red/blue/green graph on the page, about 8/10 of the way down. This is for run number 83. It's got a _much_ larger temperature rise -- about 3.5 degrees, it looks like. At about time 0:50 the green line drops by quite a lot -- looks like it it's running at about 0.41 l/m, spikes very briefly, then drops down to about 0.31 l/m, and then back up to about 0.42 l/m. The drop is about 24%. That would be a rise of about 0.85 degrees. Look at the red line -- it goes up by what looks like at least half a degree at that point, relative to the blue line. So, there's the rise, as we would expect. Then, coming out of the dip, the flow rate is a bit higher than it was -- and the blue line seems to be a bit higher than it was previously, relative to the red line; the temp rise is now smaller, as the flow is faster. So, I can't say his numbers are all dead-on, but his graphs at least seem to pass a basic sanity test. (I'd still bet just about any amount of money against the process showing a real violation of the first law, but that's just my narrow-minded point of view -- it doesn't have anything to do with obvious flaws in the method...) > > http://jlnlabs.imars.com/mahg/tests/index.htm > > This looks like a cooling water loop to me: > > http://jlnlabs.imars.com/mahg/setup.htm > > Also, the flow is so large it would have to be fracturing water at a > fantastic rate. 500 to 600 ml per minute! Actually, I think that is > too much for ordinary flow calorimetry but maybe they have a lot of > heat to remove from the cell. 500 ml = 28 moles. If that is how much > water they are disassociating, it works out to be 8 MJ per minute, or > 133 kW, which is ridiculous. Yes, you were right about that. > > - Jed > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 27 19:29:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9S2T1b9015184; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 19:29:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9S2Sxoe015167; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 19:28:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 19:28:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43618CD2.1080604 pobox.com> Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 22:28:34 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.10) Gecko/20050719 Fedora/1.7.10-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: COP >21 repeatedly - claim by Naudin References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051027132545.04ce4eb0@pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20051027135659.04ca6a70@pop.mindspring.com> <43611F1B.3020209@pobox.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20051027145444.04cdbaf0@pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20051027221948.05fb49c0@pop3.wp.pl> <6.2.1.2.2.20051027171028.04ca70a0@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20051027171028.04ca70a0 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64173 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Horace wrote: > >> Jed, >> >> The JLN's MAHD does NOT disassociate water! The water is merely a >> cooling medium for the anode. > > Well, I figured as much. > >> The heat in the MAHD is generated in a gaseous hydrogen at 0.1atm >> pressure between inner heated cathode and outer cold anode. This is >> essentially a vacuum tube, but without electrical HV polarization >> between cathode and anode. . . . > > > Thanks. That is clearer than anything I can find on Naudin's website. > Can you tell us why they vary the flow of water? And how? It must be a > feedback mechanism. No such thing -- look at my previous response in this thread. The temp rise does vary depending on the water flow rate, but the scales on the graphs are so different that it's hard to see. The water flow rate is constant within about 20%. A variation of 20% in the temperature _rise_ is barely visible on most of the graphs, save for the last one, where the temp difference was larger and the variation as the water flow varied can be clearly seen. The changing water flow rate must surely just be an artifact, as Horace already pointed out, far more convincingly :-) > > They should make this thing self-sustain. At these temperatures and > power levels it should not be hard to find a Stirling engine generator > or something like that. > > - Jed > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 27 23:28:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9S6RtsZ002221; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 23:28:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9S6RrPZ002205; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 23:27:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 23:27:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20051028062728606.0EC8E1C00082 mwinf3103.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20051028062728.009a8420 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 07:27:28 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: D2Fusion back in the news...again? Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64174 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 04:55 pm 27/10/2005 -0500, you wrote: >D2fusion is back in the news again. > >Can't tell if it's just a re-hash of old news. > >See General Discussion, first article by Bon Clayton Kuhlman at: > >http://www.opensourceenergy.com/C17/News%20Viewer/default.aspx?ID=1012 > >http://tinyurl.com/d9nlf > >Regards, >Steven Vincent Johnson >www.OrionWorks.com I found it difficult navigating my way around the above URLs so for the benefit of any other readers who may experience the same problem I have posted the relevant bit below. ======================================================== On the subject of Cold Fusion, a small company called http://www.D2fusion.com has just received an injection of funds and they are attempting to build a prototype that can output 6kw and can be used as a heating source. They believe that they have cracked a portion of the physics regarding Cold Fusion and believe the title of Solid State Fusion is more appropriate. Now if even one of those companies can come out with a successful device it will help overcome our addiction to the hydrocarbon industries. Hopefully they will ALL be successful! ======================================================== Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 27 23:54:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9S6rR4t010429; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 23:53:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9S6rORI010402; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 23:53:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 23:53:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 01:53:19 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: electric hurricane Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64175 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I have heard the hurricane described as a heat engine, but never quite like this explanation which was posted on the PES list. Sterling D. Allan writes "In a story at the new Open Source Energy Network site, Paul Noel says: "Energetically speaking, the vortex that forms in these storms is also a natural particle accelerator, and a massive capacitor bank. As the harmonic circuit develops, it resonates acoustically and functions as a capacitor, extracting the heat from the storm and transmitting it away. Without this electrical circuit, the storm would fail almost instantly due to the accumulation of heat from condensation of water." He also asserts that understanding these phenomena better could help us harness the power of nature, seen and unseen." From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 27 23:54:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9S6s2X8010612; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 23:54:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9S6rwV5010546; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 23:53:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 23:53:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 01:53:53 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Evolution and race Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="============_-1081640047==_ma============" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64176 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --============_-1081640047==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Kyle posted, and Revtek replied; > My faith in the human race and its future is shaken. Kyle, you seem surprised that there are really guys like Goering out there. There has to be a bunch of them because their reasoning is based on evolutionary beliefs and we all know how pervasive that is. Here is another really unsettling consideration. If evolution is true, then one race would naturally be superior to the others. For the races to be equal would be totally unnatural. I was watching a video about the personal views of the early exponents of the theory. They were unabashedly racist, and sexist too. --============_-1081640047==_ma============ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Evolution and race
Kyle posted, and

Revtek replied;

> My faith in the human race and its future is shaken.

Kyle, you seem surprised that there are really guys like Goering out there.
There has to be a bunch of them because their reasoning is based on
evolutionary beliefs and we all know how pervasive that is.

Here is another really unsettling consideration.  If evolution is true, then
one race would naturally be superior to the others.  For the races to be
equal would be totally unnatural.

I was watching a video about the personal views of the early exponents of the theory. They were unabashedly racist, and sexist too.
--============_-1081640047==_ma============-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 28 01:32:21 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9S8Vshd011796; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 01:32:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9S8VnKr011744; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 01:31:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 01:31:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Evolution and race Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 18:31:23 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta04sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.77.227] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Fri, 28 Oct 2005 08:31:23 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j9S8VTSv011634 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64177 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to thomas malloy's message of Fri, 28 Oct 2005 01:53:53 -0500: Hi, [snip] >Kyle posted, and > >Revtek replied; > >> My faith in the human race and its future is shaken. > >Kyle, you seem surprised that there are really guys like Goering out there. >There has to be a bunch of them because their reasoning is based on >evolutionary beliefs and we all know how pervasive that is. > >Here is another really unsettling consideration. If evolution is true, then >one race would naturally be superior to the others. For the races to be >equal would be totally unnatural. Unequal does not necessarily mean "superior". The latter frequently brings with it the inference "superior in every way", whereas real differences actually result in superiority in some respects, combined with inferiority in others. People are very complicated organisms. Superiority in all respects concurrently is unheard of. Furthermore, there are probably still thousands of aspects of our chemical makeup that are as yet still unknown, so "superiority" remains a very vague concept. To complicate matters, a characteristic that may be advantageous in one situation may be a disadvantage in another. The respective situations may occur close to one another either geographically or in time, so is the carrier of that characteristic now superior or not? Obviously it, depends on the circumstances. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 28 02:06:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9S95muj027978; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 02:06:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9S95k4W027956; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 02:05:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 02:05:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20051028090521624.985512C00083 mwinf3101.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20051028090522.009cdf34 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 10:05:22 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Evolution and race Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64178 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 06:31 pm 28/10/2005 +1000, you wrote: >In reply to thomas malloy's message of Fri, 28 Oct 2005 01:53:53 >-0500: >Hi, >[snip] >>Kyle posted, and >> >>Revtek replied; >> >>> My faith in the human race and its future is shaken. >> >>Kyle, you seem surprised that there are really guys like Goering out there. >>There has to be a bunch of them because their reasoning is based on >>evolutionary beliefs and we all know how pervasive that is. >> >>Here is another really unsettling consideration. If evolution is true, then >>one race would naturally be superior to the others. For the races to be >>equal would be totally unnatural. >Unequal does not necessarily mean "superior". The latter >frequently brings with it the inference "superior in every way", >whereas real differences actually result in superiority in some >respects, combined with inferiority in others. People are very >complicated organisms. Superiority in all respects concurrently is >unheard of. Furthermore, there are probably still thousands of >aspects of our chemical makeup that are as yet still unknown, so >"superiority" remains a very vague concept. > >To complicate matters, a characteristic that may be advantageous >in one situation may be a disadvantage in another. The respective >situations may occur close to one another either geographically or >in time, so is the carrier of that characteristic now superior or >not? Obviously it, depends on the circumstances. > >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk I was going to make similar points but I don't think I can do any better than the above so I'll shut up. Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 28 06:03:54 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9SD3MbM027225; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 06:03:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9SD3Ihl027197; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 06:03:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 06:03:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001f01c5dbbf$e569cd80$b7037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Evolution and race Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 08:02:45 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001B_01C5DB95.FB4CC690"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.6 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,HTML_60_70,HTML_MESSAGE,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64179 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C5DB95.FB4CC690 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_001C_01C5DB95.FB4E4D30" ------=_NextPart_001_001C_01C5DB95.FB4E4D30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankOne of the most remarkable chronicles in the history of the human = race is the account of the Nurenburg trials. Goering committed suicide = but his TEN henchmen were hanged. As the tenth walked the gallows,=20 he clenched his fist and shouted " PurimFest 1946". Purim is a feast celebrated by the Isrealites making the account = recorded in the book of Esther that described how Haman' s TEN sons were hanged. Not all we perceive is physical, some may be spiritual when considering = certain anomalies of the human race. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_001C_01C5DB95.FB4E4D30 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
One of the most remarkable chronicles in the history of the human = race is=20 the account of the Nurenburg trials. Goering committed suicide but his = TEN=20 henchmen were hanged. As the tenth walked the gallows,
he clenched his fist and shouted " PurimFest 1946".
 
Purim is a feast celebrated by the Isrealites making the account = recorded=20 in the book of Esther that described how
Haman' s TEN sons were hanged.
 
Not all we perceive is physical, some may be spiritual when = considering=20 certain anomalies of the human race.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_001C_01C5DB95.FB4E4D30-- ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C5DB95.FB4CC690 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001a01c5dbbf$e3cebb20$b7037841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C5DB95.FB4CC690-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 28 07:01:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9SE0Buq030165; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 07:00:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9SDqjK0021547; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 06:52:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 06:52:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=NIvgUeNp/p86gfkratOxC2o5ay8StZzJDvJVXJk/kBzQUTt42EhoiPW5SvN8IX2E; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200510528124856570 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re:The MAHG project LogBook Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 07:48:56 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9401d08772be9a80a7a86e9b01e2a5459ef350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.99 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64180 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII JLN's Logbook gives a wealth of information on how the tube filament is constructed etc. For instance, if the filament was straight it would have a resistance of ~ 160 ohms at 2200 K (1.25 times this at 2700 K) but, his calcs show 0.1 ohms indicating that the "zig-zag" mounting has about 80 "cycles". Also he neglects the ~380 watts of radiated power lost from the filament at 2200 K and ~990 watts at 2700 K if not cycled at 5% of the 50 "Hz" rep rated . IOW, if it was pulsed with a 5% - 50 Hz duty cycle square wave the filament would be on for ~1.0 millisecond and off for ~ 19 milliseconds. With 0.5% production of monatomic H at 2200 K (if it ever got there) it's hard to see anything other than calorimetry error. IMHO. http://jlnlabs.imars.com/mahg/logbook.htm FJS ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

JLN's Logbook gives a wealth of information on how the
tube filament is constructed etc.
 
For instance, if the filament was straight it would have a resistance of
~ 160 ohms at 2200 K  (1.25 times this at 2700 K) but, his calcs show 0.1 ohms indicating that
the "zig-zag" mounting has about 80 "cycles".  Also he neglects
the ~380 watts of radiated power lost from the filament at 2200 K and ~990 watts at 2700 K
if not cycled at 5% of the 50 "Hz" rep rated .
 
IOW, if it was pulsed with a 5% - 50 Hz duty cycle square wave the filament would be on for
~1.0 millisecond and off for ~ 19 milliseconds.
 
With 0.5% production of monatomic H at 2200 K (if it ever got there) it's
hard to see anything other than calorimetry error. IMHO.
 
 
FJS
 
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 28 07:07:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9SE6jKN005874; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 07:07:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9SE6htt005839; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 07:06:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 07:06:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <4enimt$1jpjnlc mxip11a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.97,263,1125892800"; d="scan'208"; a="1738137260:sNHT183011598" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: OrionWorks Organization: OrionWorks To: CC: Subject: Re; deriving Power from Atmospheric PD Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 9:06:19 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64181 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: RC Macaulay > John Coviello wrote.. > For example, studying five years of atmospheric readings from > Flagstaff and Tucson, Arizona, with an elevation difference of > 3,700 feet, separated by 250 miles, they found the pressure > difference to be in the range of 0.5 to 0.7 psi (pounds per > square inch) on a daily basis, never going below 0.5 psi. ... > Terminal velocity of standard air can be reached at near 5 psid. > Calculating an air flow through a 2.5 meter diameter pipe, 250 > mile long at a flow of 2500 miles per hour give me a headache > and a big question mark??? Anyone at the patent office notice > what the head loss would be ?? How about the weight of air at > respective elevations ?? Hmmm. Rube Goldberg would love it. > > Richard Wait a minute! Unless I've completely misread something critical (The technology page is extreemly sparse) it seems to me that a key point completely missing from the equation is the fact that the pressure difference between Flagstaff and Tucson is (I suspect) primarily DUE to the fact that there is a 3,700 feet difference in altitude between the two cities. Lower elevation will naturally have a denser atmosphere, translating to higher pressure. If my some magic both cities could be stacked vertically one on top of the other where one remained 3,700 feet higher in elevation the psi pressure difference between the two cities would likely STILL be, I would imagine, around 0.5 psi. So what. That doesn't mean energy can be extracted from the psi difference. There is no way to take advantage of an altitude difference in pressure differences. The combination of accumulated atmospheric mass and gravity generate the atmospheric pressures between the different altitudes as a way to EQUALIZE stored energy in the form of atmospheric pressure. There is no (stored) inherent energy that can be extracted from such a scenario. Said differently: Seems to me that the only way one could take advantage of different psi atmospheric values would be if both city locations were situated at the exact same ALTITUDE while still maintaining a diference in psi levels. They clearly are not! If this scenario were possible it seems to me that a long time ago there would have been generators constructed up on top of high elevation mountains with wind pipes traveling all the way down to the base to take advantagea of the difference in psi pressures. The web site, at first glance looks very professional. I think it's a clever joke. If anyone knows more on this subject please speak up! Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 28 07:08:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9SE7toS006698; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 07:08:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9SE7s5N006677; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 07:07:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 07:07:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=m6RpFLKYcfZFzWv3D7pPDvTjcW5LMam68Dfm0FqiYSzB+9S8ASO1BH2PE1mDGPPU; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220051052813635370 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re:The MAHG project LogBook Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 08:06:35 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940e6f3f5919901103f149c278d12565b5d350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.99 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64182 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII JLN's Logbook gives a wealth of information on how the tube filament is constructed etc. For instance, if the filament was straight it would have a resistance of ~ 160 ohms at 2200 K (1.25 times this at 2700 K) but, his calculations show 0.1 ohms indicating that the "zig-zag" mounting has about 80 "cycles". Also he neglects the ~380 watts of radiated power lost from the filament at 2200 K and ~990 watts at 2700 K if not cycled at 5% of the 50 "Hz" rep rate. IOW, if it was pulsed with a 5% - 50 Hz duty cycle square wave the filament would be on for ~1.0 millisecond and off for ~ 19 milliseconds. With 0.5% production of monatomic H at 2200 K (if it ever got there) it's hard to see anything other than calorimetry error. IMHO. http://jlnlabs.imars.com/mahg/logbook.htm FJS ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

JLN's Logbook gives a wealth of information on how the
tube filament is constructed etc.
 
For instance, if the filament was straight it would have a resistance of
~ 160 ohms at 2200 K  (1.25 times this at 2700 K) but, his calculations show 0.1 ohms indicating that
the "zig-zag" mounting has about 80 "cycles".  Also he neglects
the ~380 watts of radiated power lost from the filament at 2200 K and ~990 watts at 2700 K
if not cycled at 5% of the 50 "Hz" rep rate.
 
IOW, if it was pulsed with a 5% - 50 Hz duty cycle square wave the filament would be on for
~1.0 millisecond and off for ~ 19 milliseconds.
 
With 0.5% production of monatomic H at 2200 K (if it ever got there) it's
hard to see anything other than calorimetry error. IMHO.
 
 
FJS
 
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 28 07:13:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9SEDJ2F009194; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 07:13:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9SEDGkF009158; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 07:13:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 07:13:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <004f01c5dbca$e84a7e40$6701a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> From: "revtec" To: References: <4enimt$1jpjnlc mxip11a.cluster1.charter.net> Subject: Re: Re; deriving Power from Atmospheric PD Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 10:21:34 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64183 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "OrionWorks" To: Cc: Sent: Friday, October 28, 2005 10:06 AM Subject: Re; deriving Power from Atmospheric PD > From: RC Macaulay > > > John Coviello wrote.. > > > For example, studying five years of atmospheric readings from > > Flagstaff and Tucson, Arizona, with an elevation difference of > > 3,700 feet, separated by 250 miles, they found the pressure > > difference to be in the range of 0.5 to 0.7 psi (pounds per > > square inch) on a daily basis, never going below 0.5 psi. > > ... > > > Terminal velocity of standard air can be reached at near 5 psid. > > Calculating an air flow through a 2.5 meter diameter pipe, 250 > > mile long at a flow of 2500 miles per hour give me a headache > > and a big question mark??? Anyone at the patent office notice > > what the head loss would be ?? How about the weight of air at > > respective elevations ?? Hmmm. Rube Goldberg would love it. > > > > Richard > > Wait a minute! > > Unless I've completely misread something critical (The technology page is extreemly sparse) it seems to me that a key point completely missing from the equation is the fact that the pressure difference between Flagstaff and Tucson is (I suspect) primarily DUE to the fact that there is a 3,700 feet difference in altitude between the two cities. Lower elevation will naturally have a denser atmosphere, translating to higher pressure. If my some magic both cities could be stacked vertically one on top of the other where one remained 3,700 feet higher in elevation the psi pressure difference between the two cities would likely STILL be, I would imagine, around 0.5 psi. > > So what. That doesn't mean energy can be extracted from the psi difference. > > There is no way to take advantage of an altitude difference in pressure differences. The combination of accumulated atmospheric mass and gravity generate the atmospheric pressures between the different altitudes as a way to EQUALIZE stored energy in the form of atmospheric pressure. There is no (stored) inherent energy that can be extracted from such a scenario. Said differently: Seems to me that the only way one could take advantage of different psi atmospheric values would be if both city locations were situated at the exact same ALTITUDE while still maintaining a diference in psi levels. They clearly are not! > > If this scenario were possible it seems to me that a long time ago there would have been generators constructed up on top of high elevation mountains with wind pipes traveling all the way down to the base to take advantagea of the difference in psi pressures. > > The web site, at first glance looks very professional. I think it's a clever joke. > > If anyone knows more on this subject please speak up! > > Regards, > Steven Vincent Johnson > www.OrionWorks.com > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 28 07:26:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9SEPUCS014272; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 07:25:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9SEPSJY014249; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 07:25:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 07:25:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051028101731.04acb100 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 10:25:00 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Re; deriving Power from Atmospheric PD In-Reply-To: <4enimt$1jpjnlc mxip11a.cluster1.charter.net> References: <4enimt$1jpjnlc mxip11a.cluster1.charter.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64184 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: As RC Macaulay points out, this seems to be a Halloween joke. If you put a pipe between a high place a low place, the air pressure gradients within the pipe will be exactly the same the outside air: rarified at the top, and by degrees denser at the bottom. There is no reason why the air should move from one side to the other. Pressure changes in water are larger, although water is less compressible. This is like suggesting that you can create a gusher of water by putting a pipe deep into a lake. If something is holding back the fluid, such as a layer of rock over an oil deposit, then the fluid will spurt through the pipe once you penetrate the cover. But nothing prevents air from moving from low places to high places. By the way, this "pipe" method works fine when the pressure difference is between two locations at the same altitude. The air rushes from one location to another, and you can tap the energy from it. That's called "wind." - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 28 07:57:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9SEusSd031160; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 07:57:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9SEuqDa031147; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 07:56:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 07:56:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=Wa4k9VDiHiCOCOdCYju5KpKcrNxn67oTJTqFBJxop9yejjEYov5a0UHKbZYS/HIH; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200510528135622490 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re; deriving Power from Atmospheric PD Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 08:56:22 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940a86efb44a1bf058bd6419dd63340cf36350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.165.12 Resent-Message-ID: <0zghJC.A.nmH.zwjYDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64185 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > > By the way, this "pipe" method works fine when the pressure difference is > between two locations at the same altitude. The air rushes from one > location to another, and you can tap the energy from it. That's called "wind." > Yep. OTOH. the drop from the ~ 2400 ft altitude of Tucson through a 100 mile long pipeline to the 1540 ft altitude of Phoenix would make a good hydropower source if Tucson would hook it's sewage system to it. The desserts would bloom in Phoenix too. Fred > - Jed > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 28 07:58:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9SEvbC3031457; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 07:57:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9SEvU8F031397; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 07:57:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 07:57:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <005401c5dbd1$0af05ea0$6701a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> From: "revtec" To: References: <4enimt$1jpjnlc mxip11a.cluster1.charter.net> Subject: Re: Re; deriving Power from Atmospheric PD Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 11:05:29 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Resent-Message-ID: <4IXq7D.A.TqH.ZxjYDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64186 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Sorry for the double post again. When I mistakenly double click the reply box it automatically sends before I get to write anything. Even if the .5 psi differential is real, the losses due to friction in 250 miles of duct would be overwhelming. Decades ago I was doing draft calcs for fossil fueled power stations. Typically you would need a set of forced draft fans and a set of induced draft fans to get a flow thru the boiler with the boiler operating at a slight negative pressure to prevent smoke and dust from polluting the inside of the building. This amounted to a few hundred feet of ductwork with velocities in the 50 to 60 mph range. Typical pressures developed by these fans were over 20 inches of water. Since one psi is approximately equal to two feet of water, it follows that the FD and ID fans in series are developing two psi to produce 60 mph air velocity thru perhaps 500 feet of ductwork and boiler equipment. Some of these fans are the size of small houses and consume tremendous amounts of power to perform their function. Although I have not done calculations, I estimate that .5 psi pushing air thru 250 mi of 10 ft dia pipe would produce a velocity so low that you may need a feather to detect any air motion. Further consideration of this differential scheme does not seem warrented. Jeff ----- Original Message ----- From: "OrionWorks" To: Cc: Sent: Friday, October 28, 2005 10:06 AM Subject: Re; deriving Power from Atmospheric PD > From: RC Macaulay > > > John Coviello wrote.. > > > For example, studying five years of atmospheric readings from > > Flagstaff and Tucson, Arizona, with an elevation difference of > > 3,700 feet, separated by 250 miles, they found the pressure > > difference to be in the range of 0.5 to 0.7 psi (pounds per > > square inch) on a daily basis, never going below 0.5 psi. > > ... > > > Terminal velocity of standard air can be reached at near 5 psid. > > Calculating an air flow through a 2.5 meter diameter pipe, 250 > > mile long at a flow of 2500 miles per hour give me a headache > > and a big question mark??? Anyone at the patent office notice > > what the head loss would be ?? How about the weight of air at > > respective elevations ?? Hmmm. Rube Goldberg would love it. > > > > Richard > > Wait a minute! > > Unless I've completely misread something critical (The technology page is extreemly sparse) it seems to me that a key point completely missing from the equation is the fact that the pressure difference between Flagstaff and Tucson is (I suspect) primarily DUE to the fact that there is a 3,700 feet difference in altitude between the two cities. Lower elevation will naturally have a denser atmosphere, translating to higher pressure. If my some magic both cities could be stacked vertically one on top of the other where one remained 3,700 feet higher in elevation the psi pressure difference between the two cities would likely STILL be, I would imagine, around 0.5 psi. > > So what. That doesn't mean energy can be extracted from the psi difference. > > There is no way to take advantage of an altitude difference in pressure differences. The combination of accumulated atmospheric mass and gravity generate the atmospheric pressures between the different altitudes as a way to EQUALIZE stored energy in the form of atmospheric pressure. There is no (stored) inherent energy that can be extracted from such a scenario. Said differently: Seems to me that the only way one could take advantage of different psi atmospheric values would be if both city locations were situated at the exact same ALTITUDE while still maintaining a diference in psi levels. They clearly are not! > > If this scenario were possible it seems to me that a long time ago there would have been generators constructed up on top of high elevation mountains with wind pipes traveling all the way down to the base to take advantagea of the difference in psi pressures. > > The web site, at first glance looks very professional. I think it's a clever joke. > > If anyone knows more on this subject please speak up! > > Regards, > Steven Vincent Johnson > www.OrionWorks.com > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 28 08:10:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9SF9mkW005816; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 08:10:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9SF9HT5005517; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 08:09:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 08:09:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <4enjqd$1jb5or3 mxip17a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.97,263,1125892800"; d="scan'208"; a="1722999651:sNHT46825732" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: OrionWorks Organization: OrionWorks To: CC: Subject: Re; deriving Power from Atmospheric PD Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 10:08:34 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64187 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: fred sez: > Yep. OTOH. the drop from the ~ 2400 ft altitude of Tucson > through a 100 mile long pipeline to the 1540 ft altitude > of Phoenix would make a good hydropower source if Tucson > would hook it's sewage system to it. The desserts would > bloom in Phoenix too. > > Fred ROTF! You have a fertile imagination. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 28 09:15:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9SGEw7C017433; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 09:15:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9SGEtUI017392; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 09:14:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 09:14:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <004a01c5dbda$ace57700$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: Subject: Re: OT: Bird Flu and Vitamin C Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 09:14:29 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0047_01C5DBA0.0011BD20" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64188 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C5DBA0.0011BD20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There is a huge (and possibly underappreciated) implication of Dr. = Cathcart's influenza claims - relative to Vitamin C and influenza: In his 1981 paper, "Titrating to Bowel Tolerance, Anascorbemia, and = Acute Induced Scurvy" ... the claim is made that massive doses of = Vitamin C are tolerated in infection- situations where the C is rapidly = depleted by the disease itself - and that these diseases induce = scurvy..." OK, in case you didn't "get it" ....and "it" is partly semantic... when = one get's a life-threatening form of flu - the death istself will be = from "scurvy" - since the virus itself lacks the genertic mechanism to = actually halt life processes in cells. The virus depletes Vitamin C and = that next depletes collagen, and if it (collagen) is not replaced fast = enough - the victim essentially dies from scurvy - i.e. hemorrhaging = (bleeding) to death. Although this may be "just" a semantic distinction - I found it hard to = believe at first, because the medical profession igores even the = semantic implications, and has never been a big fan of vitamin therapy = (in general)... but they are the experts, correct?=20 Nevertheless, I wanted to do a more thorough internet search on the = connection of flu with scurvy - and in keeping with Stephen Lawrence's = observation that: "But then, what about that 1918 flu? Why was it so deadly? Well, it was = a hemorrhagic disease -- alveolar hemorrhage was one thing it caused, = and that's a big problem for the victim. It also caused a raging fever, = and it caused a wicked bad headache." Note these are prime symtoms of scurvy. Scury is the prototypical = hemorrhagic disease, but then again the word "scurvy" is more about = symptoms than a disease agent, right? . Before the Lind-Lime citrus treatment, in naval history we find that on = every long voyage scurvy would strike. DaGama lost 100 of 160 men to = scurvy during one ten-month voyage. Soldiers bogged down in European war = often suffered the same fate: wounds that wouldn't heal, muscle pain, = headaches, bleeding gums, spitting blood, abnormal fatigue, kidney = failure, blood in urine, pneumonia and, finally, death. Curious that the = symproms of scurvy... and the more deadly forms of flu are almost = identical.=20 Did many - even most -of the 1918 victims really die of scurvy? Well, = yes, and that is not really controversial on one basic level, more = semantic than explicative, since "scurvy" is really about the inevitable = symtoms of Vitamin C deficiency. But how does influenza itself cause = this deficiency in Vitamin C and do the victims die of scurvy?=20 Here is some technical information - which makes this Cathcart = proposition (that in flu, one dies from scurvy) seem likely. Vitamin C = (ascorbic acid), a reducing agent, is necessary to maintain the enzyme = prolyl hydroxylase in an active form, most likely by keeping its iron = atom in a reduced state. Note the improtance of *iron* here and the = iron-hemoglobin red blood cell connection... and also in the combined = collagen connection. Collagen is what keeps the blood vessels healthy = and intact under the pressure of "pumping". When collagen is depleted we = essentially bleed to death from too much blood "pressure" on weakened = blood vessels. And it all goes back to Vitamin C. The precursor molecule to the protein collagen, "procollagen," contains = an unusual amino acid sequence in that every third amino acid is a = glycine and contains a high frequency of two amino acids not found in = any other proteins - hydroxyproline and hydroxylysine. These latter two = amino acids are converted from proline and lysine, respectively, after = the procollagen molecule has been synthesized. The hydroxylation of = proline and lysine in procollagen is carried out by the enzyme prolyl = hydroxylase using vitamin C as a cofactor. Without the vitamin C cofactor, the conversion is extremely slow and = blood vessels cannot be "repatched" fast enough with new collagen. IOW = the flu is not attacking healthy cells and killing them but it is = binding to vitamin C selectively, as the is the "other" use which the = body makes of this vitamin - and depleteing it from it use with = collagen. A vitamin C deficiency results in an underhydroxylation of proline and = lysine in collagen which results in a lower melting temperature of the = resulting collagen fibers which causes a breakdown of the protein = collagen needed for connective tissue, bones and dentin, the major = portion of teeth. Collagen is a cementing material that binds cells = together, and is an essential connective tissue protein in the body. = Whenever the body is wounded, collagen glues the separated tissues = together to form a scar. A lack of collagen causes the walls of the body's blood capillaries to = break down and hemorrhaging occurs in cells throughout the body. When = capillaries lose the "glue" that holds them together, symptoms of scurvy = appear. It is looking to this non-medically-trained observer like Dr. Cathcart's = flu =3D=3D> scurvy connection is right-on. Perhaps it is only part of = the bigger picture - but if your physician does not mention massive = vitamin C therapy for flu, either alone or in addtion to anti-virals - = in my opinion that is negligent, and tantamount to malpractice, unless = of course there is some evidence in the literature which is contrary to = Cathcart's claims.=20 Jones ------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C5DBA0.0011BD20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
There is a huge (and possibly=20 underappreciated) implication of Dr. Cathcart's influenza claims - = relative to=20 Vitamin C and influenza:

In his 1981 paper, "Titrating to = Bowel=20 Tolerance, Anascorbemia, and Acute Induced Scurvy" ... the claim is made = that=20 massive doses of Vitamin C are tolerated in infection- situations where = the C is=20 rapidly depleted by the disease itself - and that these diseases induce=20 scurvy..."

OK, in case you didn't "get it" ....and "it" is partly = semantic... when one get's a life-threatening form of flu - the death = istself=20 will be from "scurvy" - since the virus itself lacks the genertic = mechanism to=20 actually halt life processes in cells. The virus depletes Vitamin C and = that=20 next depletes collagen, and if it (collagen) is not replaced fast enough = - the=20 victim essentially dies from scurvy - i.e. hemorrhaging (bleeding) to=20 death.

Although this may be "just" a semantic distinction - = I found=20 it hard to believe at first, because the medical profession igores even = the=20 semantic implications, and has never been a big fan of vitamin therapy = (in=20 general)... but they are the experts, correct?
 
Nevertheless, I wanted to do a more = thorough=20 internet search on the connection of flu with scurvy - and in = keeping with=20 Stephen Lawrence's observation that:
"But then, what about that 1918 = flu? Why=20 was it so deadly? Well, it was a hemorrhagic disease -- alveolar = hemorrhage was=20 one thing it caused, and that's a big problem for the victim. It also = caused a=20 raging fever, and it caused a wicked bad headache."

Note these = are prime=20 symtoms of scurvy. Scury is the prototypical hemorrhagic = disease,=20 but then again the word "scurvy" is more about symptoms than a = disease=20 agent, right? .
 
Before the Lind-Lime citrus treatment, = in naval=20 history we find that on every long voyage scurvy would strike. = DaGama lost=20 100 of 160 men to scurvy during one ten-month voyage. Soldiers bogged = down in=20 European war often suffered the same fate: wounds that wouldn't heal, = muscle=20 pain, headaches, bleeding gums, spitting blood, abnormal fatigue, kidney = failure, blood in urine, pneumonia and, finally, death. Curious = that the=20 symproms of scurvy... and the more deadly forms of flu are almost = identical.=20
 
Did many - even most -of the 1918 = victims really=20 die of scurvy? Well, yes, = and that is not=20 really controversial on one basic level, more semantic than explicative, = since=20 "scurvy" is really about the inevitable symtoms of Vitamin C deficiency. = But how=20 does influenza itself cause this deficiency in Vitamin C and do the = victims die=20 of scurvy? 

Here is some technical information - which makes = this=20 Cathcart proposition (that in flu, one dies from scurvy) seem likely. = Vitamin C=20 (ascorbic acid), a reducing agent, is necessary to maintain the enzyme = prolyl=20 hydroxylase in an active form, most likely by keeping its iron atom in a = reduced=20 state. Note the improtance of *iron* here and the iron-hemoglobin red = blood cell=20 connection... and also in the combined collagen connection. Collagen is = what=20 keeps the blood vessels healthy and intact under the pressure of = "pumping". When=20 collagen is depleted we essentially bleed to death from too much blood=20 "pressure" on weakened blood vessels. And it all goes back to Vitamin=20 C.
 
The precursor molecule to the protein = collagen,=20 "procollagen," contains an unusual amino acid sequence in that every = third amino=20 acid is a glycine and contains a high frequency of two amino acids not = found in=20 any other proteins - hydroxyproline and hydroxylysine. These latter two = amino=20 acids are converted from proline and lysine, respectively, after the = procollagen=20 molecule has been synthesized. The hydroxylation of proline and lysine = in=20 procollagen is carried out by the enzyme prolyl hydroxylase using = vitamin C as a=20 cofactor.
 
Without the vitamin C cofactor, the = conversion is=20 extremely slow and blood vessels cannot be "repatched" fast enough with = new=20 collagen. IOW the flu is not attacking healthy cells and killing them = but it is=20 binding to vitamin C selectively, as the is the "other" use which the = body makes=20 of this vitamin - and depleteing it from it use with=20 collagen.

A vitamin C deficiency results in an underhydroxylation of = proline and=20 lysine in collagen which results in a lower melting temperature of the = resulting=20 collagen fibers which causes a breakdown of the protein collagen needed = for=20 connective tissue, bones and dentin, the major portion of teeth. = Collagen is a=20 cementing material that binds cells together, and is an essential = connective=20 tissue protein in the body. Whenever the body is wounded, collagen glues = the=20 separated tissues together to form a scar.

A lack of collagen causes the walls of the body's blood = capillaries to=20 break down and hemorrhaging occurs in cells throughout the body. When=20 capillaries lose the "glue" that holds them together, symptoms of scurvy = appear.
 
It is looking to this non-medically-trained observer like Dr. = Cathcart's=20 flu =3D=3D> scurvy connection is right-on. Perhaps it is only = part of the=20 bigger picture - but if your physician does not mention massive vitamin = C=20 therapy for flu, either alone or in addtion to anti-virals - in my = opinion that=20 is negligent, and tantamount to malpractice, unless of course there is = some=20 evidence in the literature which is contrary to Cathcart's claims. =
 
Jones 
------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C5DBA0.0011BD20-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 28 09:48:54 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9SGlkEd005612; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 09:48:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9SGlh4Z005550; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 09:47:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 09:47:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [64.174.37.158] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes msn.com] X-Sender: mgoldes msn.com In-Reply-To: <004a01c5dbda$ace57700$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Mark Goldes" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT: Bird Flu and Vitamin C Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 09:47:14 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Oct 2005 16:47:15.0991 (UTC) FILETIME=[40B7E270:01C5DBDF] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64189 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones, Very nice analysis! Some years back my family physician was a skeptic regarding Cathcart's work. I was then the only member of the family taking C in large daily doses. A few years later, having seen each person in the family except me several times, he asked for copies of Cathcart's papers. He said he was going to give a talk to the local medical society about Vitamin C. Mark >From: "Jones Beene" >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com >To: >Subject: Re: OT: Bird Flu and Vitamin C >Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 09:14:29 -0700 > >There is a huge (and possibly underappreciated) implication of Dr. >Cathcart's influenza claims - relative to Vitamin C and influenza: > >In his 1981 paper, "Titrating to Bowel Tolerance, Anascorbemia, and Acute >Induced Scurvy" ... the claim is made that massive doses of Vitamin C are >tolerated in infection- situations where the C is rapidly depleted by the >disease itself - and that these diseases induce scurvy..." > >OK, in case you didn't "get it" ....and "it" is partly semantic... when one >get's a life-threatening form of flu - the death istself will be from >"scurvy" - since the virus itself lacks the genertic mechanism to actually >halt life processes in cells. The virus depletes Vitamin C and that next >depletes collagen, and if it (collagen) is not replaced fast enough - the >victim essentially dies from scurvy - i.e. hemorrhaging (bleeding) to >death. > >Although this may be "just" a semantic distinction - I found it hard to >believe at first, because the medical profession igores even the semantic >implications, and has never been a big fan of vitamin therapy (in >general)... but they are the experts, correct? > >Nevertheless, I wanted to do a more thorough internet search on the >connection of flu with scurvy - and in keeping with Stephen Lawrence's >observation that: >"But then, what about that 1918 flu? Why was it so deadly? Well, it was a >hemorrhagic disease -- alveolar hemorrhage was one thing it caused, and >that's a big problem for the victim. It also caused a raging fever, and it >caused a wicked bad headache." > >Note these are prime symtoms of scurvy. Scury is the prototypical >hemorrhagic disease, but then again the word "scurvy" is more about >symptoms than a disease agent, right? . > >Before the Lind-Lime citrus treatment, in naval history we find that on >every long voyage scurvy would strike. DaGama lost 100 of 160 men to scurvy >during one ten-month voyage. Soldiers bogged down in European war often >suffered the same fate: wounds that wouldn't heal, muscle pain, headaches, >bleeding gums, spitting blood, abnormal fatigue, kidney failure, blood in >urine, pneumonia and, finally, death. Curious that the symproms of >scurvy... and the more deadly forms of flu are almost identical. > >Did many - even most -of the 1918 victims really die of scurvy? Well, yes, >and that is not really controversial on one basic level, more semantic than >explicative, since "scurvy" is really about the inevitable symtoms of >Vitamin C deficiency. But how does influenza itself cause this deficiency >in Vitamin C and do the victims die of scurvy? > >Here is some technical information - which makes this Cathcart proposition >(that in flu, one dies from scurvy) seem likely. Vitamin C (ascorbic acid), >a reducing agent, is necessary to maintain the enzyme prolyl hydroxylase in >an active form, most likely by keeping its iron atom in a reduced state. >Note the improtance of *iron* here and the iron-hemoglobin red blood cell >connection... and also in the combined collagen connection. Collagen is >what keeps the blood vessels healthy and intact under the pressure of >"pumping". When collagen is depleted we essentially bleed to death from too >much blood "pressure" on weakened blood vessels. And it all goes back to >Vitamin C. > >The precursor molecule to the protein collagen, "procollagen," contains an >unusual amino acid sequence in that every third amino acid is a glycine and >contains a high frequency of two amino acids not found in any other >proteins - hydroxyproline and hydroxylysine. These latter two amino acids >are converted from proline and lysine, respectively, after the procollagen >molecule has been synthesized. The hydroxylation of proline and lysine in >procollagen is carried out by the enzyme prolyl hydroxylase using vitamin C >as a cofactor. > >Without the vitamin C cofactor, the conversion is extremely slow and blood >vessels cannot be "repatched" fast enough with new collagen. IOW the flu is >not attacking healthy cells and killing them but it is binding to vitamin C >selectively, as the is the "other" use which the body makes of this vitamin >- and depleteing it from it use with collagen. > >A vitamin C deficiency results in an underhydroxylation of proline and >lysine in collagen which results in a lower melting temperature of the >resulting collagen fibers which causes a breakdown of the protein collagen >needed for connective tissue, bones and dentin, the major portion of teeth. >Collagen is a cementing material that binds cells together, and is an >essential connective tissue protein in the body. Whenever the body is >wounded, collagen glues the separated tissues together to form a scar. > >A lack of collagen causes the walls of the body's blood capillaries to >break down and hemorrhaging occurs in cells throughout the body. When >capillaries lose the "glue" that holds them together, symptoms of scurvy >appear. > >It is looking to this non-medically-trained observer like Dr. Cathcart's >flu ==> scurvy connection is right-on. Perhaps it is only part of the >bigger picture - but if your physician does not mention massive vitamin C >therapy for flu, either alone or in addtion to anti-virals - in my opinion >that is negligent, and tantamount to malpractice, unless of course there is >some evidence in the literature which is contrary to Cathcart's claims. > >Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 28 10:17:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9SHGMrS026960; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 10:16:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9SHGBKG026899; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 10:16:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 10:16:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <007301c5dbe3$3a874590$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: Micro comes to Water-power Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 10:15:42 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0070_01C5DBA8.8DBADEB0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64190 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0070_01C5DBA8.8DBADEB0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Magnetohydrodynamic methods can generate electricity through natural = ionization in plain-old water. At the level of the micro-channel, you do = not even need to "split" the water. This kind of process should make = Fred Sparber happy, as he has mentioned that the "natural" ionization of = H2O should be amenable to use on several occasions. Also it vaguely similar to the way an "ultraconductor" works, if I am = not mistaken. BTW, If you want to get attention these days, just throw the prefix = "nano" in there, even where it doesn't belong. These guys resisted the = urge, even though they could have gotten away with it, as arguably to = get from the 1% eff. to a level higher, one is going to need to go = smaller: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/3201030.stm#graphic The prototype battery generated 10 volts, and presumably it requires = pressurization, but that should be "free" from solar energy. ------=_NextPart_000_0070_01C5DBA8.8DBADEB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Magnetohydrodynamic methods=20 can generate electricity through natural ionization in plain-old water. = At the=20 level of the micro-channel, you do not even need to "split" the water. = This kind=20 of process should make Fred Sparber happy, as he has mentioned that the=20 "natural" ionization of H2O should be amenable to use on=20 several occasions.
 
Also it vaguely similar to the way an=20 "ultraconductor" works, if I am not mistaken.
 
BTW, If you want to get attention these = days, just=20 throw the prefix "nano" in there, even where it doesn't belong. These = guys=20 resisted the urge, even though they could have gotten away with it, as = arguably=20 to get from the 1% eff. to a level higher, one is going to need to go=20 smaller:
 
 
The prototype battery generated 10 = volts, and=20 presumably it requires pressurization, but that should be "free" from = solar=20 energy.
------=_NextPart_000_0070_01C5DBA8.8DBADEB0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 28 11:11:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9SIBGcO001463; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 11:11:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9SIBAiQ001374; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 11:11:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 11:11:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Micro comes to Water-power X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 909b8a8ff0cae19159d456a4b333f05c Reply-To: michael.foster excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20051028181036.CA08A3D17 xprdmailfe10.nwk.excite.com> Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 14:10:36 -0400 (EDT) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64191 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones wrote: > Magnetohydrodynamic methods can generate electricity > through natural ionization in plain-old water. At the level of > the micro-channel, you do not even need to "split" the > water. This kind of process should make Fred Sparber > happy, as he has mentioned that the "natural" ionization of > H2O should be amenable to use on several occasions. > Also it vaguely similar to the way an "ultraconductor" > works, if I am not mistaken. > BTW, If you want to get attention these days, just throw the > prefix "nano" in there, even where it doesn't belong. These > guys resisted the urge, even though they could have gotten > away with it, as arguably to get from the 1% eff. to a level > higher, one is going to need to go smaller: >http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/3201030.stm#graphic > The prototype battery generated 10 volts, and presumably it > requires pressurization, but that should be "free" from solar > energy. The only problem with this "new" discovery is that Michael Faraday did it ca 1840. OK, so Mike used pond sediment pounded into a pipe one time and terracotta for "micro-channels" another time, still the same damn thing. Neeno nano nyno noono. I've emailed these geniuses about this a few times, but predictably got no response. Might cost them their grant, hmm? I would do a lot of scientists a lot of good to read works actually written by Faraday, Maxwell, Lavoisier, Benjamin Franklin and so on. You really learn a lot from reading the source as opposed to reading what others had to say about their work. M. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 28 11:23:54 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9SINGPq009364; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 11:23:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9SINDlB009342; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 11:23:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 11:23:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <009301c5dbec$99d93180$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: Whoopee-Battery: was Micro water-power Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 11:22:48 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0090_01C5DBB1.ED115E80" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64192 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0090_01C5DBB1.ED115E80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =BFQue? or is that: <> Que <> =A1That's right! it's the Whoopee battery... =20 Sorry, plain texters - this message is meaningless without HTML... or = should I say, "meaningless with or without HTML" ? =A1No! the Whoopee-battery is not related to that duller-than-dull = comedienne... nor to daddy Warbucks, you know... "Woopie"=20 Definition: a wealthy older, esp. retired, person=20 Etymology: w(ell)-o(ff) o(lder) p(erson) + -ie (as in yuppie)=20 Its kinda related to the "cushion" http://www.supercoolstuff.com/items/pract/pj874.htm ...or at least the need for ample back-side "pressure" in order to = operate the aforementioned microchannel water battery... Infinitely = rechargeable... unless you are of a certain girth and end-up shorting it = out. So... you get on the airplane with your laptop, and you place the = Whoopee battery on the seat, and then you surf-away till the charge runs = down... at which time, you get up and stretch the legs, and on your = return you flip the Whoopee battery over and continue... Jones OK. You are still wondering- just what is the aforementioned = "Interrobang" =BF=A1 Arriba !? First another info-item for the Latino-challenged: the inverted = exclamation - =A1 - and/or question mark =BF is/are framing-punctuation = marks used in many languages, such as Spanish. The =BF=A1 interrobang !? = is the combination or the two. Exclamations are used to frame "excitable statements," and with the = inverted exclamation at the beginning =A1, then - doh - you the reader = know what is coming before you finish the sentence. Same for the = question. Now... =BF what if you are south of the border and want to = present evidence of both emotions...? ...as in, when you daughter is caught sneaking in at 4 am...=20 "=BF=A1 You did WHAT?!"=20 The INTERROBANG is a combined exclamation mark and question mark. I = probably cannot show you one accurately in this post, exactly as it was = intended to be displayed, as this punctuation mark is not yet standard = in cyberspace, and probably never will be.=20 It was invented in by a New York advertising agency geek (and a gringo, = oddly enough). He felt that advertising people needed a mark that = combined a question with a shout... which mixture which any parent = produces at stressful moments... and parents are the numero-uno targets = of advertisers, as every gringo-or-not ad-exec is keenly aware.=20 The idea was also to provide a marker for rhetorical questions - much = favored by copywriters, like "GOT MILK ?!"=20 ...but, alas, it never caught on. However, it is not dead yet: its name = appears in a couple of American dictionaries, it is in one Windows = symbol font I know of, and on my micro$$oft ...ergo-keyboard, even, = which will occasionally crash XP... even if it is also in the Unicode = character set, maybe, that is (I will have to see if this gets past the = spell-checker). ------=_NextPart_000_0090_01C5DBB1.ED115E80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

=BFQue?  or is that: <<inverted interrobang>> Que=20 <<interrobang>>

=A1That's right!  it's the Whoopee battery... 

Sorry, plain texters - this message is = meaningless=20 without HTML... or should I say, "meaningless with or without HTML"=20 ?

=A1No!  the Whoopee-battery is not related = to that=20 duller-than-dull comedienne... nor to daddy Warbucks, you=20 know...

"Woopie"
Definition:  a wealthy older, esp. = retired,=20 person
Etymology:  w(ell)-o(ff) o(lder) p(erson) + -ie (as in = yuppie)=20

Its kinda related to the "cushion"
http://www.supercoolstuff.com/items/pract/pj874.htm
...or at least the need for ample back-side = "pressure" in=20 order to operate the aforementioned microchannel water battery... = Infinitely=20 rechargeable... unless you are of a certain girth and end-up shorting it = out.
 
So... you get on the airplane with your laptop, = and you=20 place the Whoopee battery on the seat, and then you surf-away till the = charge=20 runs down... at which time, you get up and stretch the legs, and on your = return=20 you flip the Whoopee battery over and continue...
 
Jones
 
OK. You are still wondering- = just what is=20 the aforementioned "Interrobang"
 
=BF=A1 = Arriba !?
 
First another info-item for = the=20 Latino-challenged: the inverted exclamation - =A1 - and/or = question mark=20 =BF is/are framing-punctuation marks used in = many=20 languages, such as Spanish. The =BF=A1 interrobang !? = is the=20 combination or the two.
 
Exclamations are used to frame "excitable=20 statements," and with the inverted exclamation at the beginning =A1, = then - doh -=20 you the reader know what is coming before you finish the=20 sentence.  Same for the question. = Now... =BF what if you are south of the border and want = to present=20 evidence of both emotions...?

...as in, when you daughter = is caught=20 sneaking in at 4 am...

"=BF=A1 = You did=20 WHAT?!"

The INTERROBANG is = a combined exclamation mark and question mark. I = probably cannot=20 show you one accurately in this post, exactly as it was intended to = be=20 displayed, as this punctuation mark is = not yet=20 standard in cyberspace, and probably never will be.

It was invented in by a New = York=20 advertising agency geek (and a gringo, oddly enough). He felt that = advertising=20 people needed a mark that combined a question with a shout... which = mixture=20 which any parent produces at stressful moments... and parents are the = numero-uno=20 targets of advertisers, as every gringo-or-not ad-exec is keenly=20 aware. 

The idea was also to = provide a=20 marker for rhetorical questions - much favored by copywriters, like "GOT = MILK=20 ?!"

...but, alas, it never = caught on.=20 However, it is not dead yet: its name appears = in a=20 couple of American dictionaries, it is in one Windows symbol font I know = of, and=20 on my micro$$oft ...ergo-keyboard, even, which will occasionally crash = XP...=20 even if it is also in the Unicode character set, maybe, that is (I = will=20 have to see if this gets past the spell-checker).

 

------=_NextPart_000_0090_01C5DBB1.ED115E80-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 28 11:56:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9SIu8kj027902; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 11:56:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9SIu3gQ027867; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 11:56:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 11:56:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C5DBF1.2BCC136A" Subject: RE: OT: Bird Flu and Vitamin C Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 13:55:31 -0500 Message-ID: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50A4AB21E CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: OT: Bird Flu and Vitamin C thread-index: AcXb2u0cFwvsHhdaRBmN3+eRsdbH8wAFIOiQ From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Oct 2005 18:55:32.0028 (UTC) FILETIME=[2BE9EFC0:01C5DBF1] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64193 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5DBF1.2BCC136A Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 ________________________________ From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9 pacbell.net]=20 Sent: Friday, October 28, 2005 12:14 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT: Bird Flu and Vitamin C There is a huge (and possibly underappreciated) implication of Dr. Cathcart's influenza claims - relative to Vitamin C and influenza: =20 The medical establishment's ignoring of Vitamin C's effectiveness is truly astounding. Linus Pauling tried to overcome this situation but money and habit speak louder. There were studies that suggested that even polio virus would respond to large doses of Vitamin C. =20 I recently suffered a sort of persistent flu like illness that lasted for weeks - I thought it was an allergy or metabolic problem. When I figured out that it was an infection, I started taking a gram an hour. I began feeling better in 90 minutes and kept up the high dosage until it cleared up. =20 Isn't it amazing that scientists will laud the supposed achievements of evolutionary theory - but ignore the fact that we lack the gene for vitamin C together with its multi-gram implications? =20 I would recommend some rutin or bioflavonoids along with the C. I noticed some capillary fragility that went away after I took some.=20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5DBF1.2BCC136A Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 

From: Jones Beene = [mailto:jonesb9 pacbell.net]=20
Sent: Friday, October 28, 2005 12:14 PM
To:=20 vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: OT: Bird Flu and Vitamin=20 C

There is a huge (and = possibly=20 underappreciated) implication of Dr. Cathcart's influenza claims - = relative to=20 Vitamin C and influenza:
 
The medical establishment's ignoring of Vitamin C's = effectiveness=20 is truly astounding.  Linus Pauling tried to overcome this=20 situation
but money and habit speak louder.  There were = studies that=20 suggested that even polio virus would respond to large doses of Vitamin=20 C.
 
I recently suffered a sort of persistent flu like = illness that=20 lasted for weeks - I thought it was an allergy or metabolic = problem. =20 When I figured
out that it was an infection,  I started taking a = gram an=20 hour.  I began feeling better in 90 minutes and kept up the = high=20 dosage until
it cleared up.
 
Isn't it amazing that scientists will laud = the supposed=20 achievements of evolutionary theory - but ignore the fact that we lack = the=20 gene
for vitamin C together with its multi-gram=20 implications?
 
I would recommend some rutin or bioflavonoids along with = the=20 C.  I noticed some capillary fragility that went away after I took=20 some. 
------_=_NextPart_001_01C5DBF1.2BCC136A-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 28 12:18:42 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9SJI6EK004565; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 12:18:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9SJI43R004539; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 12:18:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 12:18:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=BCqv+qBOyK0gq0XSun6r4RGWDW7nlJYgDqnz4WBnzpTi7fUFZsE4/HKIhquOBT1V; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200510528181732350 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: RE: Micro comes to Water-power Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 13:17:32 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9404258612f4c789293b507177eaf1141cb350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.53 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64194 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Yup. Old Michael Faraday's MHD idea for putting a magnetic field across the Thames and getting a D.C. voltage between the top and bottom will work for tap water, but, should do even better with household Ammonia water run through a rectangular plastic conduit with nickel electrodes between a couple of Neodymium Super magnets. Jones can Whoop-up--pee a working fluid too. Saves trips to the John if his Pro-State is in good working order. :-) Fred > [Original Message] > From: Michael Foster > To: > Date: 10/28/05 1:11:30 PM > Subject: RE: Micro comes to Water-power > > > Jones wrote: > > > Magnetohydrodynamic methods can generate electricity > > through natural ionization in plain-old water. At the level of > > the micro-channel, you do not even need to "split" the > > water. This kind of process should make Fred Sparber > > happy, as he has mentioned that the "natural" ionization of > > H2O should be amenable to use on several occasions. > > > Also it vaguely similar to the way an "ultraconductor" > > works, if I am not mistaken. > > > BTW, If you want to get attention these days, just throw the > > prefix "nano" in there, even where it doesn't belong. These > > guys resisted the urge, even though they could have gotten > > away with it, as arguably to get from the 1% eff. to a level > > higher, one is going to need to go smaller: > > >http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/3201030.stm#graphic > > > The prototype battery generated 10 volts, and presumably it > > requires pressurization, but that should be "free" from solar > > energy. > > The only problem with this "new" discovery is that Michael > Faraday did it ca 1840. OK, so Mike used pond sediment > pounded into a pipe one time and terracotta for "micro-channels" > another time, still the same damn thing. Neeno nano nyno > noono. > > I've emailed these geniuses about this a few times, but > predictably got no response. Might cost them their grant, > hmm? > > I would do a lot of scientists a lot of good to read works > actually written by Faraday, Maxwell, Lavoisier, Benjamin > Franklin and so on. You really learn a lot from reading the > source as opposed to reading what others had to say about > their work. > > M. > > > _______________________________________________ > Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com > The most personalized portal on the Web! > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 28 12:37:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9SJbAKV014176; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 12:37:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9SJb7Lc014129; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 12:37:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 12:37:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <4enk8j$auitml mxip30a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.97,263,1125892800"; d="scan'208"; a="367621845:sNHT58527080" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: OrionWorks Organization: OrionWorks To: CC: Subject: RE: OT: Bird Flu and Vitamin C Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 14:36:35 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64195 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This has probably already been answered somewhere in this interesting thread, so my apologies for asking again. How does the body deal with the elevated acidic levels in the blood stream, particularly when excreted through the kidneys? A while back I ingested regular doses of time-released vitamin C tablets (as a health precaution) and I seem to recall eventually experiencing a burning in my urinary track which I attributed to irritation brought on by higher acidic levels in my blood and in in my urine. When I stopped taking C the irritation went away. I assume the general answer to my affliction would be to drink more water to dilute the acidic content, (Drinking plenty of water is always considered a good thing!) but doesn't one then have to deal with the possibility that other vital minerals & vitamins are in danger of being flushed out of the system as well? I'm curious. How does one balance the pros and cons? Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 28 13:06:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9SK5K23031787; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 13:05:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9SK5H4X031759; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 13:05:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 13:05:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [64.174.37.158] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes msn.com] X-Sender: mgoldes msn.com In-Reply-To: <4enk8j$auitml mxip30a.cluster1.charter.net> From: "Mark Goldes" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: orionworks charter.net Subject: RE: OT: Bird Flu and Vitamin C Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 13:04:51 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Oct 2005 20:04:53.0144 (UTC) FILETIME=[DC21D980:01C5DBFA] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64196 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Steve, See Alacer Supergram II 1 gram Vitamin C for balanced time released doses. But, you do need to replace minerals -- and with more than 10 grams daily see Pauling's book How to Live Longer and Feel Better for the list of a few other supplements he always took. Mark >From: OrionWorks >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com >To: >CC: >Subject: RE: OT: Bird Flu and Vitamin C >Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 14:36:35 -0500 > >This has probably already been answered somewhere in this interesting >thread, so my apologies for asking again. > >How does the body deal with the elevated acidic levels in the blood stream, >particularly when excreted through the kidneys? A while back I ingested >regular doses of time-released vitamin C tablets (as a health precaution) >and I seem to recall eventually experiencing a burning in my urinary track >which I attributed to irritation brought on by higher acidic levels in my >blood and in in my urine. When I stopped taking C the irritation went away. > >I assume the general answer to my affliction would be to drink more water >to dilute the acidic content, (Drinking plenty of water is always >considered a good thing!) but doesn't one then have to deal with the >possibility that other vital minerals & vitamins are in danger of being >flushed out of the system as well? > >I'm curious. How does one balance the pros and cons? > >Regards, >Steven Vincent Johnson >www.OrionWorks.com > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 28 13:31:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9SKUU4q009200; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 13:30:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9SKUR3S009173; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 13:30:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 13:30:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 16:30:34 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Micro comes to Water-power In-reply-to: <007301c5dbe3$3a874590$6401a8c0 NuDell> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_MJtcFXlWdGuZnScjy3DHNg)" User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64197 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --Boundary_(ID_MJtcFXlWdGuZnScjy3DHNg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Jones Beene wrote: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/3201030.stm#graphic The prototype battery generated 10 volts, and presumably it requires pressurization, but that should be "free" from solar energy. Would a hand pump suffice? Harry --Boundary_(ID_MJtcFXlWdGuZnScjy3DHNg) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Re: Micro comes to Water-power Jones Beene wrote:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/3201030.stm#graphic
The prototype battery generated 10 volts, and presumably it requires pressurization, but that should be "free" from solar energy.


Would a hand pump suffice?
Harry

--Boundary_(ID_MJtcFXlWdGuZnScjy3DHNg)-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 28 14:34:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9SLUCUM004979; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 14:33:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9SLQRhm000837; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 14:26:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 14:26:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=ix.netcom.com; b=Wekdtc14/NKc7toQp7yyEMQolF4vl0+LCUdYSMLx1vs1p3Tjfy1owo9DVOfXwxWk; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220051052821272090 ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.1.47.0 (Windows) From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: "vortex-l" Subject: FW: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday October 28, 2005 Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 14:27:20 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d80a749d01d714c689de185de1b56d91ecc965d6d45243e2d1350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 216.175.82.34 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64198 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > [Original Message] > From: What's New To: Date: 10/28/2005 2:14:15 PM Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday October 28, 2005 WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 28 Oct 05 Washington, DC 1. INTELLIGENT DESIGN: CORNELL WILL SEEK TO EDUCATE THE PUBLIC. Last Friday, even as What's New was being written in Washington, events were taking place elsewhere that must be commented on. In New York, CBS News was releasing its most recent poll on public attitudes toward the theory of evolution. A little further North in Ithaca, Hunter Rawlings, the president of Cornell University, was delivering a courageous State-of-the-University Address, http://www.cornell.edu/president/announcement_2005_1021.cfm. The CBS poll found that just over half (51%) of Americans believe God created humans in their present form. Clearly, the scientific community has work to do. In his speech, Rawlings went straight to the point, committing Cornell to "venture outside the campus to help the American public sort through the issues [raised by intelligent design]." He described ID as a "political movement seeking to inject religion into state policy and our schools." The commitment is very much in the tradition of Cornell, whose founders, A.D. White, the first president, and Ezra Cornell saw sectarian strife as the greatest threat to the new university. 2. EVOLUTION: THE DISCOVERY INSTITUTE DID WHAT SCIENCE COULD NOT. The question of "how we know" is being asked on the pages of the daily news for the first time since the 1925 Scopes trial, thanks to the Discovery Institute. With the world beset by religious wars, this is an opportunity for people to see that no wars are fought over science. Scientific disputes can be settled only by better evidence. "It's too complex to see how it could happen without magic" is not going to get you far. Meanwhile, Harvard announced plans to study the hardest question of all, the origin of life. And right at ground-zero, the University of Kansas Natural History Museum will open an evolution exhibit on Nov 1. 3. KANSAS: "YOU CAN'T JUST CHOOSE THE SONGS YOU WANT TO HEAR." Yesterday, the Washington Post reported that the National Academy of Sciences and the National Science Teachers Association had reviewed the latest draft of the Kansas science education standards. They objected that the draft failed to make it clear that supernatural phenomena have no place in science. As a result, Kansas will not be allowed to use copyrighted science education materials developed by the two organizations. Gerald Wheeler, a physicist and the executive director of the NSTA, pointed out that, "science is not a jukebox." 4. SUPREME QUESTION: RIGHT NOW THERE'S NO ONE TO ASK IT OF. Don't relax yet, there will be. This weeks choice came from Dave Clary, who would ask: "Does legislation aimed at protecting natural resources contravene a Higher Law that says these resources were put here for humans to consume." THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.bobpark.org What's New is moving to a different listserver and our subscription process has changed. To change your subscription status please visit this link: http://listserv.umd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=bobparks-whatsnew&A=1 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 28 18:30:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9T1TNQo018541; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 18:29:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9T1TDUY018482; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 18:29:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 18:29:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051029032636.04b35970 pop3.wp.pl> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 03:28:09 +0200 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Horace Subject: Re:The MAHG project LogBook In-Reply-To: <001f01c5dbbf$e569cd80$b7037841 xptower> References: <001f01c5dbbf$e569cd80$b7037841 xptower> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-WP-AV: skaner antywirusowy poczty Wirtualnej Polski S. A. X-WP-SPAM: NO AS1=NO(Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1) AS2=YES(0.999912) AS3=NO AS4=NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64199 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I think that JLN's input power calculations errors are equally possible as bad calorimetry. It's enough that he multiples the average current and average voltage together on 5% duty pulses and he immediately gets a 2000% input power underestimation. This immediately leads to false 20 COP. Horace At 15:06 2005-10-28, you wrote: > >With 0.5% production of monatomic H at 2200 K (if it ever got there) it's >hard to see anything other than calorimetry error. IMHO. > >http://jlnlabs.imars.com/mahg/logbook.htm > >FJS From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 28 19:51:02 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9T2oFd5019164; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 19:50:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9T2oCk1019143; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 19:50:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 19:50:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000c01c5dc33$6cb1ed90$fb027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Karabut paper Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 21:49:46 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C5DC09.8359E450"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.6 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,HTML_MESSAGE,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64200 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C5DC09.8359E450 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0009_01C5DC09.8359E450" ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C5DC09.8359E450 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankInteresting comparison may be made of Naudin's and Karabut's work http://blake.montclair.edu/%7ekowalskil/cf/13karabut.html Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C5DC09.8359E450 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Interesting comparison may be made of Naudin's and Karabut's = work

 http:/= /blake.montclair.edu/%7ekowalskil/cf/13karabut.html

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C5DC09.8359E450-- ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C5DC09.8359E450 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000701c5dc33$6c284b30$fb027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C5DC09.8359E450-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 28 21:38:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9T4cLRj025876; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 21:38:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9T4cJGU025860; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 21:38:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 21:38:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Evolution and race Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 00:49:08 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200510290049.08803.rockcast earthlink.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j9T4bw1Q025669 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64201 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Friday 28 October 2005 02:53, thomas malloy wrote: > Kyle posted, and > > Revtek replied; > > > My faith in the human race and its future is shaken. > > Kyle, you seem surprised that there are really guys like Goering out there. > There has to be a bunch of them because their reasoning is based on > evolutionary beliefs and we all know how pervasive that is. > > Here is another really unsettling consideration. If evolution is true, > then one race would naturally be superior to the others. For the races to > be equal would be totally unnatural. > > I was watching a video about the personal views of the early > exponents of the theory. They were unabashedly racist, and sexist too. One of my C-Band educational channels had a series on the origin of man, specifically, "The Biological Adam". The researchers did a study of DNA found around the world in order to find the oldest DNA that is still human. Racial subtypes or sub-varieties if you will biologically share much of thier DNA and by doing so identify that subtype. The problem with much of this is that the human DNA 'family tree' is tangled at the top somewhat with all the intermingling that has gone on in the last few hundred years. Evidence from bones found in older burial sites yield purer DNA indicative of specific sub-types. From this came a template against which modern specimens of mixed ancestry could be classified. From here the search was to go backward to find points of departure in time and general location. Older DNA of this type should show greater inter-relations among subtypes especially near times when types first diverged. And so it was that as older DNA was found from more and more ancient burial sites, it was shared by more and more of the total population worldwide regardless of subtype. It turns out that from these DNA studies man as we know ourselves all descended from a group of less than a few thousand individuals who lived in Kenya about 60,000 years ago. These people were survivors of a very difficult time in the history of the species 'homo'. We had almost been wiped out! The biological Adam and Eve or Eva was among these survivors. Presently there is an ethnic group in Kenya whose DNA is similar to these survivors, and these DNA groups have been found to be shared by all people in all the world and of whatever 'race' by which they want to have themselves known. This will disconcert some folks to know that we are all family within 3000 generations or less no matter how we look. The studies further found that before the ancient global natural holocaust, our ancestors came from the 'Homo Robustus' line; and that we were and are probably unrelated to the 'Homo Neanderthalensis' people. These Robustii had migrated north from a 'homeland' in the area of the Transvaal in South Africa to Kenya where they whethered the trying times. >From this, we are really all Kenyans whether we like it or not. From Kenya, our line walked north and west and south, but only left Africa by way of the middle east. The westerners became the Tuareg and the modern and ancient Saharans that grazed the northern plains before they became a desert 6000 years ago. The pioneers out of Africa went to Iran and split, one path roughly following what later became the 'Silk Road' to Asia; and another turning north to Europe and Siberia. Bear in mind that our ancestors who left Africa were primitive peoples, and that none of us advanced much until about 13000 to 9000 years ago when cultures seemed to suddenly appear for no apparent reason. Adversity could not be the driving force as we had survived more adversity before. Some think that we were visited by foreigners from elsewhere who maybe educated some of us or we copied what we saw and passed this knowledge on in oral traditions and stone-age religions. There is a group out of Russia called 'The Followers' who believe this. If we read the various 'Bibles' found around the world, the older the better, as a kind of fractured 'history' and integrate what is found therein, maybe some light can be shown into the past this way of events in our species happening in this other interesting period from 13000 to 9000 years ago. Large cities in northwest India have been found offshore of Gujarat State and are estimated and correlated by the Rig Vedas to age about 12000 years ago. The Rig Vedas speak of visitors to our world as well. Not 'gods', but visitors. Standing Bear From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 29 06:48:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9TDlBLE027070; Sat, 29 Oct 2005 06:47:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9TDl8n4027037; Sat, 29 Oct 2005 06:47:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 06:47:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=ij/N+YSb0T/z9rXuj/NVdLveXUzGEaWfaOT6g0MEtuI7L7ZpxVuV+Xy3hB3vXysc; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <411-2200510629124634970 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Karabut paper Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 07:46:34 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94072d8095be01317a3463f46691812b5e7350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.12 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64202 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII This part sounds interesting, Richard. But is far away from JLN's MAHG work. Possibly involves 5-quark protons (Positronium-bearing nuclei) either in the deuterons or Pd. "The rate of transmutation reactions should consequently decrease with depth. Such expectation seems to be confirmed experimentally; the concentration of reaction products decreases with the depth. The situation, however, may be quite different for a cylindrical or spherical geometry. In such cases one may create conditions in which the density of population, nLM, increases with the depth leading to a possible explosion." "9) It is conceivable that a solid cathode whose metastable levels have very long lives can be used as a heat storage cell. The storage capacity of such a cell can be as high as 2108 Joule/cm3." Fred ----- Original Message ----- From: RC Macaulay To: vortex-l eskimo.com Sent: 10/28/05 9:50:30 PM Subject: Karabut paper Interesting comparison may be made of Naudin's and Karabut's work http://blake.montclair.edu/%7ekowalskil/cf/13karabut.html Richard ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Blank
This part sounds interesting, Richard. But is far away from JLN's MAHG work.
 
Possibly involves 5-quark protons (Positronium-bearing nuclei) either in the deuterons or Pd.
 
"The rate of transmutation reactions should consequently decrease with depth. Such expectation seems to be confirmed experimentally; the concentration of reaction products decreases with the depth. The situation, however, may be quite different for a cylindrical or spherical geometry. In such cases one may create conditions in which the density of population, nLM, increases with the depth leading to a possible explosion."

"9) It is conceivable that a solid cathode whose metastable levels have very long lives can be used as a heat storage cell. The storage capacity of such a cell can be as high as 2108 Joule/cm3."
 
Fred
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 10/28/05 9:50:30 PM
Subject: Karabut paper

Interesting comparison may be made of Naudin's and Karabut's work

 http://blake.montclair.edu/%7ekowalskil/cf/13karabut.html

Richard

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 29 09:37:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9TGasFn015478; Sat, 29 Oct 2005 09:37:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9TGaq57015467; Sat, 29 Oct 2005 09:36:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 09:36:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: COP >21 repeatedly - claim by Naudin Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 12:47:51 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200510291247.51496.rockcast earthlink.net> Resent-Message-ID: <5qMVVD.A.nxD.kU6YDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64203 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thursday 27 October 2005 12:34, Mark Goldes wrote: > Vo, > > In case you have not seen this... > > http://www.gifnet.org/ > > Mark caution, this above URL does not like native linux browsers like Konqueror. Refuses to load a page unless a more neutral browser like Mozilla is used Standing Bear From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 29 11:48:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9TIli96013284; Sat, 29 Oct 2005 11:47:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9TIlenG013251; Sat, 29 Oct 2005 11:47:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 11:47:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001201c5dcb9$300a2980$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: OT: Scapegoats and M.O.s Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 11:47:17 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000F_01C5DC7E.831EC8F0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <4ro0o.A.8OD.LP8YDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64204 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C5DC7E.831EC8F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "Just the facts, ma'am..." The story of political intrigue you are about to hear is true; only the = names haven't been changed to protect the guilty. First... you know the term "scapegoat"...if you are a cynic of politics. = The scapegoat was once an actual representative of the genus Capra, = originally domesticated in the mountainous areas of the Old World. Once = per year a particular goat was separated from his herd and driven off = into the wilderness as part of the ceremonies of Yom Kippur, the Day of = Atonement. Don't feel sorry for this particular goat - his fate was = somewhat preferable to what normally happens around Jewish religious = events. This whole thing goes back in Judaism to the times of the = Temple, before the Romans ravaged the place and Jews became Rome's = whipping-boy (i.e.scapegoat) for everything bad happening around the = empire. The rite of Atonement is described in Leviticus and is very = poignant, but nowadays the word refers to anyone who is falsely blamed = for another's failure or misfortunes, often as a way of distracting = attention from real causes. It does not need to refer to a person or = group these days. In the post-modern NeoCon version of Nazism, which we find being = practiced in today's petrocracy - the "scapegoat" is of increasing = importance, however - since PC proscribes using a race (at least in = public) then usually any (vague but pumped up) threat will suffice, like = "terrorism"... or an "overdue" and unpredictable disease, such as this = year's Avian flu.=20 Think about it: more people died from bee stings last year in the USA = than from terrorism, and yet we have this huge expensive bureaucracy in = place to deal with - what? what even a small bit of common sense would = have prevented prior to 9/11. You do not need a department of homeland = security, if you have enough common sense not to teach illiterate = foreigners to fly commercial jets, especially if they don't want to = learn how to land them. The popularity of the early TV show "Dragnet" is attested to by a number = of items that have become embedded in our pop culture, pretty much as = "memes": such as the distinctive "dum-de-dum-dum" opening notes of the = theme... Sgt. Joe Friday's rapid-fire, dead-pan-staccato delivery; the = somber denial - "The story you are about to hear is true; the names have = been changed to protect the innocent"; and, of course, Joe's famous = one-liner catch-phrase, "Just the facts, ma'am."=20 Forget the implied sexism and the idea that only women are prone to = advance emotional details of a stressful event which might distort the = evidence... hey, as Joe hissef might say... it's just part of their MO. We also use this Latin phrase MO a lot - approximately translated as = "mode of operation," often in science, and even more so - on the = 'fringes,' to describe the mechanics of operation of some new or not = well-understood phenomenon.=20 It is more often used in police work than science, and especially in = mystery writing, to describe a criminal's characteristic patterns and = style of work. A modus operandi can be used to narrow down an = investigation amongst a group of criminals because for some proven but = not well-understood reason, even the smartest criminals get into = patterns of conduct - and stay there even after they have been = discovered. For example, a con-man may typically use an invented "solution" to a = pumped-up problem, whether it be water as a fuel or snake-oil as = medicine. If one is clever enough, he can even convince many experts of = the validity of his proprietary solution - without many facts. = Therefore, if from a group of known criminals, one suspected to have = committed a certain scam, then their characteristic MOs can be used to = help identify them. A criminal's MO can also be used in profiling, where = it can be used to find clues to the perpetrator's psychology - but it = also goes on at higher levels - in government, for instance.=20 When a government's leadership is failing and popularity is sinking = faster than the proverbial lead balloon - the only MO answer is not = ta-da but "dum-de-dum-dum" - yes the "scapegoat"! This is an MO which = has been time-and-again before in politics to divert attention away from = high level incompetence and corruption. And no, the Nazi's didn't invent = this MO - with the Jews as their scapegoats. Actually Jews had been = scapegoats for the previous 2000 years, and the Nazis were only the = latest to jump on that MO, which is now d=E9class=E9 and non-PC, even = for NeoCons. Having said all this... I will repost a revised previous message below, = which may or may not contain a 30 year-old MO. You can be the your own = judge of that. Jones Here is another article on Tamiflu, which although seemingly slanted = both ways - towards, and against, our favorite drug-monopoly: Roche - is = more balanced than the typical pro-Tam spin: http://tinyurl.com/b88qs=20 But the disguised-spin even here, is the avoidance of the newer = evidence, ergo some high level bias is still ingrained. If you want to = learn more about the "how-to" of high-level spin... i.e. how you can use = "reverse-psychology" to your benefit, and especially the use of "scare = tactics," to create either national solidarity or a demand for the very = "product" you seem to be "dissing" - there is a collection of the = English translations of Goebbels' Nazi propaganda material, including = weekly articles for "Das Reich," online: www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/goebmain.htm Cheney/ Rumsfeld & Co are able-students of this material, and of all = reverse psychology ploys ("please don't throw me in the briar patch"). = Despite the fact that our Prez, and many for-real Public health experts, = warn that the world might be close to a repeat of the flu pandemic of = 1918, one wonders if this could instead be closer to the rebirth of an = old scapegoat - the 1976 version and soap-opera, now known as the = "pandemic that wasn't " ? =20 That scapegoat didn't work, but as you may remember, it had been = designed to unite the country behind its failing leadership, and divert = attention away from the horrible economic repercussions of the post-Nam = era. That is the year President Gerald Ford announced a crash program to = "inoculate every man, woman and child in the United States" against the = so-called "swine flu." But the virus never became a killer, more like a = late-nite comedy routine for Carson- and eventually vaccinations were = halted two months after they began, after reports that 500 people who = received the shot developed a paralyzing nerve disease and more than 30 = of them died. Ford paid the price when this scapegoat song-and-dance = pooped-out. Was it just a training run? Lesson #1 for the sequel of this previous 1976 spin-episode is... ta-da = and "dum-de-dum-dum" ... this time we must give the hoi-polloi something = which is a bit less potentially harmful (and far financial = remunerative). Flu is, after-all the perfect scapegoat - because in any = given winter, at least 2 million older citizens will die anyway, flu or = not. If their demise is hastened by any agent, then yes, it can be a = perfect scapegoat and diversion - when we have the national press firmly = in our pocket like no other time since WWII. But if '76 was just a = Denzel-Ethan-esque "Training Day", then who is playing Denzel this time = around? Curiously ... artist/photog Richard Avedon has a new offering of fine = photos out just now, entitled: Donald Rumsfeld, Secretary of Defense, = Washington D.C., May 7, 1976 http://tinyurl.com/aw8uy =20 Coincidental?.. or was 1976 just a training-run for the Rummy = grand-finale... I bring up this possibility of a Goebble-esque = machination of what could just be another normal flu-season- and the = possibility that there now exists a possible "manufactured" scare tactic = put firmly in place... not only because of the double Rummy-whammy = "coincidental" reappearance in a similar role (and with financial = interest this time).. but also in the context of the MO. Normally one = might think after such a scapegoat-tactic failed before, it would be = irrational to try to revive it. But this is one of those unfathomable = questions about human behavior - and in particular about reprehensible = behavior: the return of the MO - as even the failed MO often returns - = even skipping generations. You fail to march on Baghdad in one = generation and your son just has to atone for your failure by marching = on Baghdad years later. So-to-speak. If scientists were so very wrong in the previous pandemic scares, like = 1976 and the lesser ones before and since, and if the "cure itself" = often transmits the (supposedly incapacitated) virus - could they be = wrong again? Admittedly not Likely - I know that Tamiflu is not = "supposed to" contain any incapacitated virus, but I'm not sure I want = to be the volunteer, and the reality is that Tamiflu or any palliative = may increase the virulence of Avian anyway (read the "mutation-time" = explicatory logic below). Maybe that is why the "planners and spinners" = had previously chosen a foreign middleman company (should things go = wrong). BTW did you notice that Roche itself may have been carefully = picked-out, among all possible drug companies, to handle being the = middle-man for Gilead - because of its location? Not that the royalty = checks will go into a hidden Swiss bank account, or anything like that. Some arguments being made about "why" a pandemic is looming now - echo = those made three decades ago. But many experts with big-Gov and CDC say = the situation now is different enough - that a "false alarm" is less = likely. I think they are probably correct and that a possible behind the scene = manipulation, by someone's spin-machine is an comparatively "unlikely" = scenario. However, it is not so unlikely that it should not even be = mention - especially in the context of MO. Anyway, "We just know a lot more about the influenza virus than we did = in 1976," said Ira M. Longini Jr., a professor at Emory University who = is an expert on epidemics. Still, a lot can be learned both from what = did and did not happen back then. The 1976 scare started in February = when a handful of soldiers at Fort Dix in New Jersey got sick and one of = them died. IOW it was based on a military threat and that may point to a = disguised source. Scientists determined that the virus was one that = infected pigs and was different from the human influenza viruses = circulating then. The details are eerily similar to today's situation = with a 30 year fast forward. But one reason for the previous concern was = that scientists thought the 1918 pandemic had been caused by a swine = virus, and that the Fort Dix outbreak marked its second coming. = Furthermore, experts warned that pandemics tended to be cyclical and = that another one was about due.=20 Yup, cyclical and past due. Has a nice ring to it and a cachet of = believability. And an MO depends on "believability" and on short = memories. Today, thanks to genetic analysis - a technique not available in 1976 - = scientists know the 1918 virus was a bird virus that mutated. But yet = there is still the "vector" thing involving swine and timing. You see, = most scientists agree that swine can be infected by either the avian = virus, or the human virus - BUT, and this is a key point - the swine who = can catch both types seldom die from either - instead they harbor it, = sleep more, and give it time to mutate. They usually do not succumb to = the illness - only allow it to become much more virulent for humans.=20 Curiously, this is the same exact thing that would happen if a certain = palliative medicine did not cure the disease but allowed human workers = to miss few sick-days. IOW about the same thing happens when some folks = get Tamiflu, and others do not because of cost or it and its partial = effectiveness as a palliative. They return to work sooner, and have more = exposure time to give it to those who may be more at risk, and in any = case - allow the virus longer to mutate. We might be better off as a = society with no palliative at all. So now, there is concern that the H5N1 avian strain ravaging birds in = Asia could in like fashion evolve into a form that can spread easily = among porkers and then people, after proper time for mutation in one or = the other. It is indeed cynical to think that, in some circles at least, = that this outcome of many deaths is actually better than just taking the = blame for a failed war. But that is a possibility, which even if = unlikely, should not be overlooked.=20 The avian strain already shows some mutations similar to those in the = 1918 virus, said Jeffery K. Taubenberger of the Armed Forces Institute = of Pathology. And experts are again warning that the world is overdue = for a pandemic. Is this part of the Rumsflu spin, or no? Edwin M. Kilbourne, a professor emeritus at New York Medical College who = argued for the vaccination program in 1976, said there was actually less = reason to be concerned about a pandemic today. That is because the swine = flu virus at Fort Dix clearly passed easily from person to person, while = the current avian flu has not. Is that part of the reverse psychology = Rumsflu counter-spin, or no? Many experts disagree with either characterization, however. In = retrospect, they say, the 1976 decision to vaccinate was based on zero = solid evidence, and may have been influenced by political realities. = "Part of the problem was convictions outpacing evidence," said Harvey V. = Fineberg, president of the Institute of Medicine, part of the National = Academies, and co-author of "The Epidemic That Never Was," a book about = the 1976 experience.=20 "I don't think that's happening today," he adds. Well, with all due respect Harvey, can you ditch the political naivet=E9 = have you read the revised script, and seen the cast for this sequel of = "Training Day" 1976? ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C5DC7E.831EC8F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
"Just the facts, ma'am..."

The = story of=20 political intrigue you are about to hear is true; only the names haven't = been=20 changed to protect the guilty.

First... you know the term=20 "scapegoat"...if you are a cynic of politics. The scapegoat was once an = actual=20 representative of the genus Capra, originally domesticated in the = mountainous=20 areas of the Old World. Once per year a particular goat was separated = from his=20 herd and driven off into the wilderness as part of the ceremonies of Yom = Kippur,=20 the Day of Atonement. Don't feel sorry for this particular goat - = his fate=20 was somewhat preferable to what normally happens around Jewish religious = events.=20 This whole thing goes back in Judaism to the times of the Temple, before = the=20 Romans ravaged the place and Jews became Rome's whipping-boy = (i.e.scapegoat) for=20 everything bad happening around the empire. The rite of Atonement is = described=20 in Leviticus and is very poignant, but nowadays the word refers to = anyone who is=20 falsely blamed for another's failure or misfortunes, often as a way of=20 distracting attention from real causes. It does not need to refer to a = person or=20 group these days.

In the post-modern NeoCon version of Nazism, = which we=20 find being practiced in today's petrocracy - the "scapegoat" is of = increasing=20 importance, however - since PC proscribes using a race (at least in = public) then=20 usually any (vague but pumped up) threat will suffice, like = "terrorism"... or an=20 "overdue" and unpredictable disease, such as this year's Avian flu. =

Think about it: more people died from bee stings last year in = the USA=20 than from terrorism, and yet we have this huge expensive bureaucracy in = place to=20 deal with - what? what even a small bit of common sense would have = prevented=20 prior to 9/11. You do not need a department of homeland security, if you = have=20 enough common sense not to teach illiterate foreigners to fly commercial = jets,=20 especially if they don't want to learn how to land them.

The = popularity=20 of the early TV show "Dragnet" is attested to by a number of items that = have=20 become embedded in our pop culture, pretty much as "memes": such as the=20 distinctive "dum-de-dum-dum" opening notes of the theme... Sgt. Joe = Friday's=20 rapid-fire, dead-pan-staccato delivery; the somber denial - "The story = you are=20 about to hear is true; the names have been changed to protect the = innocent";=20 and, of course, Joe's famous one-liner catch-phrase, "Just the facts, = ma'am."=20

Forget the implied sexism and the idea that only women are prone = to=20 advance emotional details of a stressful event which might distort the=20 evidence... hey, as Joe hissef might say... it's just part of their=20 MO.

We also use this Latin phrase MO a lot - approximately = translated as=20 "mode of operation," often in science, and even more so - on the = 'fringes,' to=20 describe the mechanics of operation of some new or not well-understood=20 phenomenon.

It is more often used in police work than science, = and=20 especially in mystery writing, to describe a criminal's characteristic = patterns=20 and style of work. A modus operandi can be used to narrow down an = investigation=20 amongst a group of criminals because for some proven but not = well-understood=20 reason, even the smartest criminals get into patterns of conduct - and = stay=20 there even after they have been discovered.

For example, a = con-man may=20 typically use an invented "solution" to a pumped-up problem, whether it = be water=20 as a fuel or snake-oil as medicine. If one is clever enough, he can even = convince many experts of the validity of his proprietary solution - = without many=20 facts. Therefore, if from a group of known criminals, one suspected to = have=20 committed a certain scam, then their characteristic MOs can be used to = help=20 identify them. A criminal's MO can also be used in profiling, where it = can be=20 used to find clues to the perpetrator's psychology - but it also goes on = at=20 higher levels - in government, for instance.

When a government's = leadership is failing and popularity is sinking faster than the = proverbial lead=20 balloon - the only MO answer is not ta-da but "dum-de-dum-dum"  = - yes=20 the "scapegoat"! This is an MO which has been time-and-again before in = politics=20 to divert attention away from high level incompetence and corruption. = And no,=20 the Nazi's didn't invent this MO - with the Jews as their scapegoats. = Actually=20 Jews had been scapegoats for the previous 2000 years, and the Nazis were = only=20 the latest to jump on that MO, which is now d=E9class=E9 and non-PC, = even for=20 NeoCons.

Having said all this... I will repost a revised previous = message=20 below, which may or may not contain a 30 year-old MO. You can be the = your own=20 judge of that.

Jones


Here is another article on = Tamiflu, which=20 although seemingly slanted both ways - towards, and against, our = favorite=20 drug-monopoly: Roche - is more balanced than the typical pro-Tam = spin:
http://tinyurl.com/b88qs =

But the disguised-spin even here, is the avoidance of the newer = evidence, ergo some high level bias is still ingrained. If you want to = learn=20 more about the "how-to" of high-level spin... i.e. how you can use=20 "reverse-psychology" to your benefit, and especially the use of "scare = tactics,"=20 to create either national solidarity or a demand for the very "product" = you seem=20 to be "dissing" - there is a collection of the English translations of = Goebbels=92=20 Nazi propaganda material, including weekly articles for "Das Reich,"=20 online:
www.calvin.e= du/academic/cas/gpa/goebmain.htm

Cheney/ Rumsfeld & Co are able-students of this material, = and of=20 all reverse psychology ploys ("please don't throw me in the briar = patch").=20 Despite the fact that our Prez, and many for-real Public health experts, = warn=20 that the world might be close to a repeat of the flu pandemic of 1918, = one=20 wonders if this could instead be closer to the rebirth of an old = scapegoat - the=20 1976 version and soap-opera, now known as the "pandemic that wasn't = "=20 ? 

That scapegoat didn't work, but as you may remember, it = had=20 been designed to unite the country behind its failing leadership, = and=20 divert attention away from the horrible economic repercussions of the = post-Nam=20 era. That is the year President Gerald Ford announced a crash program to = "inoculate every man, woman and child in the United States" against the=20 so-called "swine flu." But the virus never became a killer, more like a=20 late-nite comedy routine for Carson- and eventually vaccinations were = halted two=20 months after they began, after reports that 500 people who received the = shot=20 developed a paralyzing nerve disease and more than 30 of them died. Ford = paid=20 the price when this scapegoat song-and-dance pooped-out. Was it just a = training=20 run?

Lesson #1 for the sequel of this previous 1976 spin-episode = is...=20 ta-da and "dum-de-dum-dum" ... this time we must give the=20 hoi-polloi something which is a bit less potentially harmful (and = far=20 financial remunerative). Flu is, after-all the perfect scapegoat - = because=20 in any given winter, at least 2 million older citizens will die anyway, = flu or=20 not. If their demise is hastened by any agent, then yes, it can = be a=20 perfect scapegoat and diversion - when we have the national press firmly = in our=20 pocket like no other time since WWII. But if '76 was just a = Denzel-Ethan-esque=20 "Training Day", then who is playing Denzel this time = around?

Curiously=20 ... artist/photog Richard Avedon has a new offering of fine photos out = just now,=20 entitled: Donald Rumsfeld, Secretary of Defense, Washington D.C., May 7, = 1976
http://tinyurl.com/aw8uy
 
Coincidental?.. or was 1976 just a training-run for the = Rummy=20 grand-finale... I bring up this possibility of a Goebble-esque = machination=20 of what could just be another normal flu-season- and the possibility = that there=20 now exists a possible "manufactured" scare tactic put firmly in place... = not=20 only because of the double Rummy-whammy "coincidental" reappearance in a = similar=20 role (and with financial interest this time).. but also in the context = of the=20 MO. Normally one might think after such a scapegoat-tactic failed = before, it=20 would be irrational to try to revive it. But this is one of those=20 unfathomable questions about human behavior - and in particular about=20 reprehensible behavior: the return of the MO - as even the failed=20 MO often returns - even skipping generations. You fail to march on = Baghdad=20 in one generation and your son just has to atone for your failure by = marching on=20 Baghdad years later. So-to-speak.

If scientists were so very = wrong in the=20 previous pandemic scares, like 1976 and the lesser ones before and = since, and if=20 the "cure itself" often transmits the (supposedly incapacitated) virus - = could=20 they be wrong again? Admittedly not Likely - I know that Tamiflu is not=20 "supposed to" contain any incapacitated virus, but I'm not sure I want = to be the=20 volunteer, and the reality is that Tamiflu or any palliative may = increase the=20 virulence of Avian anyway (read the "mutation-time" explicatory logic = below).=20 Maybe that is why the "planners and spinners" had = previously chosen a=20 foreign middleman company (should things go wrong). BTW did you notice = that=20 Roche itself may have been carefully picked-out, among all possible drug = companies, to handle being the middle-man for Gilead - because of its = location?=20 Not that the royalty checks will go into a hidden Swiss bank account, or = anything like that.

Some arguments being made about "why" a = pandemic is=20 looming now - echo those made three decades ago. But many experts with = big-Gov=20 and CDC say the situation now is different enough - that a "false alarm" = is less=20 likely.

I think they are probably correct and that a possible = behind the=20 scene manipulation, by someone's spin-machine is an comparatively = "unlikely"=20 scenario. However, it is not so unlikely that it should not even be = mention -=20 especially in the context of MO.
 
Anyway, "We just know a lot more about the influenza virus than we = did in=20 1976," said Ira M. Longini Jr., a professor at Emory University who is = an expert=20 on epidemics. Still, a lot can be learned both from what did and did not = happen=20 back then. The 1976 scare started in February when a handful of soldiers = at Fort=20 Dix in New Jersey got sick and one of them died. IOW it was based on a = military=20 threat and that may point to a disguised source. Scientists determined = that the=20 virus was one that infected pigs and was different from the human = influenza=20 viruses circulating then. The details are eerily similar to today's = situation=20 with a 30 year fast forward. But one reason for the previous concern was = that=20 scientists thought the 1918 pandemic had been caused by a swine virus, = and that=20 the Fort Dix outbreak marked its second coming. Furthermore, experts = warned that=20 pandemics tended to be cyclical and that another one was about due. =

Yup,=20 cyclical and past due. Has a nice ring to it and a cachet of = believability. And=20 an MO depends on "believability" and on short memories.

Today, = thanks to=20 genetic analysis - a technique not available in 1976 - scientists know = the 1918=20 virus was a bird virus that mutated. But yet there is still the "vector" = thing=20 involving swine and timing. You see, most scientists agree that swine = can be=20 infected by either the avian virus, or the human virus - BUT, and this = is a key=20 point - the swine who can catch both types seldom die from either - = instead=20 they harbor it, sleep more, and give it time to mutate. They = usually do not=20 succumb to the illness - only allow it to become much more virulent for = humans.=20
 
Curiously, this is the same exact thing that would happen if a = certain=20 palliative medicine did not cure the disease but allowed human workers = to miss=20 few sick-days. IOW about the same thing happens when some folks get = Tamiflu, and=20 others do not because of cost or it and its partial effectiveness as a=20 palliative. They return to work sooner, and have more exposure time to = give it=20 to those who may be more at risk, and in any case - allow the virus = longer to=20 mutate. We might be better off as a society with no palliative at = all.

So=20 now, there is concern that the H5N1 avian strain ravaging birds in Asia = could in=20 like fashion evolve into a form that can spread easily among porkers and = then=20 people, after proper time for mutation in one or the other. It is indeed = cynical=20 to think that, in some circles at least, that this outcome of many = deaths=20 is actually better than just taking the blame for a failed war. But that = is a=20 possibility, which even if unlikely, should not be overlooked.
 
The avian strain already shows some mutations similar to those in = the 1918=20 virus, said Jeffery K. Taubenberger of the Armed Forces Institute of = Pathology.=20 And experts are again warning that the world is overdue for a pandemic. = Is this=20 part of the Rumsflu spin, or no?

Edwin M. Kilbourne, a professor = emeritus=20 at New York Medical College who argued for the vaccination program in = 1976, said=20 there was actually less reason to be concerned about a pandemic today. = That is=20 because the swine flu virus at Fort Dix clearly passed easily from = person to=20 person, while the current avian flu has not. Is that part of the reverse = psychology Rumsflu counter-spin, or no?

Many experts disagree = with either=20 characterization, however. In retrospect, they say, the 1976 decision to = vaccinate was based on zero solid evidence, and may have been influenced = by=20 political realities.  "Part of the problem was convictions = outpacing=20 evidence," said Harvey V. Fineberg, president of the Institute of = Medicine, part=20 of the National Academies, and co-author of "The Epidemic That Never = Was," a=20 book about the 1976 experience.

"I don't think that's happening = today,"=20 he adds.

Well, with all due respect Harvey, can you ditch the = political=20 naivet=E9 have you read the revised script, and seen the cast for = this=20 sequel of "Training Day" 1976?
------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C5DC7E.831EC8F0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 29 18:15:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9U1EnVq018229; Sat, 29 Oct 2005 18:15:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9U1EkPQ018205; Sat, 29 Oct 2005 18:14:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 18:14:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001701c5dcef$41b8c610$0100007f xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: OT: Scapegoats and M.O.s Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 20:13:42 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0013_01C5DCC5.423BA3C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.5 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,HTML_50_60,HTML_MESSAGE,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: <_X7ve.A.ZcE.F6BZDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64205 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C5DCC5.423BA3C0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0014_01C5DCC5.423D2A60" ------=_NextPart_001_0014_01C5DCC5.423D2A60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankJones, A pleasant way to spend a few minutes.. reading a neat Jones' post. Ah! Washington.. where it is not nearly as important to win.. as it is.. = to make sure the other guy loses. Back when I was a kid and impressionable, used to listen to an old = ex-convict tell stories about prison life. Seens the heirarchy in prison = placed the " con men" at the top of society because they were so smart = and told of ingenious tricks to separate people from their money. = Interesting remark he made.. they don't do it for the money.. they do it = because of the vicarious thrill of=20 "cheating a sucker". The usual reason they get caught is from " = bragging" about their exploits. A little insight to the true mechanicians of politics. Rumsfield, Cheney = and Bush are first , last and always " career bureaucrats" masquerading = as politicians. The absolute worst combination for leadership. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0014_01C5DCC5.423D2A60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Jones,
 
A pleasant way to spend a few minutes.. reading a neat Jones' = post.
 
Ah! Washington.. where it is not nearly as important to win.. as it = is.. to=20 make sure the other guy loses.
 
Back when I was a kid and impressionable, used to listen to an old=20 ex-convict tell stories about prison life. Seens the heirarchy in prison = placed=20 the " con men" at the top of society because they were so smart and told = of=20 ingenious tricks to separate people from their money. Interesting remark = he=20 made.. they don't do it for the money.. they do it because of the = vicarious=20 thrill of
"cheating a sucker". The usual reason they get caught is from " = bragging"=20 about their exploits.
 
A little insight to the true mechanicians of politics. Rumsfield, = Cheney=20 and Bush are first , last and always " career bureaucrats" masquerading = as=20 politicians. The absolute worst combination for leadership.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0014_01C5DCC5.423D2A60-- ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C5DCC5.423BA3C0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001201c5dcef$2b06fd60$0100007f xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C5DCC5.423BA3C0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 29 19:21:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9U2KUdG011694; Sat, 29 Oct 2005 19:20:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9U2KQln011666; Sat, 29 Oct 2005 19:20:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 19:20:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: temalloy metro.lakes.com (Unverified) Message-Id: Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 21:20:04 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: focus fusion Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64206 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I linked to this website. They are claiming an ion density of 1.7 X 10^ 21 per CC, a significant number. Their plan is to fuse deuterium and boron, an interesting concept. They are looking $5 million, which is peanuts compaired to the $5 billion that the Bush Administration is reported to have given the hot fusioneers. I'm looking forward to Ed Storms evalution of the technical feasibility of their plan. http://www.focusfusion.org/research/plan.html I also found the website of a cosmologist who says that the Big Bang didn't happen. From there I linked to a site which is promoting a two set DVD on the origins of the universe. www.universe-film.com . This sounds like something that we might like watching at the Tesla Society meeting. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 29 20:21:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9U3LMXH026818; Sat, 29 Oct 2005 20:21:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9U3LJVh026803; Sat, 29 Oct 2005 20:21:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 20:21:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: temalloy metro.lakes.com (Unverified) Message-Id: Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 22:21:22 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: On Purim Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64207 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Richard Macaulay posted One of the most remarkable chronicles in the history of the human = race is the account of the Nurenburg trials. Goering committed suicide = but his TEN henchmen were hanged. As the tenth walked the gallows,=20 he clenched his fist and shouted " PurimFest 1946". Purim is a feast celebrated by the Isrealites making the account = recorded in the book of Esther that described how Haman' s TEN sons were hanged. Not all we perceive is physical, some may be spiritual when considering = certain anomalies of the human race. We do a play in honor of the festival of Purim. In a Hebrew version of the last chapter of Ester, there are three letters which are of a diminished size. Those three characters can be read as numbers. When viewed as numbers, they correspond to five years, one per millennium, one of which was 1946. The Nazis were in the spirit of Haman. I would have labeled this off topic, but I regard this as a very interesting anomaly. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 29 20:45:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9U3jHgs032152; Sat, 29 Oct 2005 20:45:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9U3jEW3032123; Sat, 29 Oct 2005 20:45:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 20:45:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000801c5dd04$483a11a0$db027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: Subject: Re: On Purim Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 22:44:50 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.8 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64208 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thomas, Haman was an Agagite, a descendent of king Agag, an Amelike, the ancient enemies of God for which the Isrealites would war with every generation. Seems prophect can happen. Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: "thomas malloy" To: Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2005 10:21 PM Subject: On Purim > Richard Macaulay posted > > One of the most remarkable chronicles in the history of the human = > race is the account of the Nurenburg trials. Goering committed suicide = > but his TEN henchmen were hanged. As the tenth walked the gallows,=20 > he clenched his fist and shouted " PurimFest 1946". > > Purim is a feast celebrated by the Isrealites making the account = > recorded in the book of Esther that described how > Haman' s TEN sons were hanged. > > Not all we perceive is physical, some may be spiritual when considering = > certain anomalies of the human race. > > We do a play in honor of the festival of Purim. In a Hebrew version of the > last chapter of Ester, there are three letters which are of a diminished > size. Those three characters can be read as numbers. When viewed as > numbers, they correspond to five years, one per millennium, one of which > was 1946. The Nazis were in the spirit of Haman. > > I would have labeled this off topic, but I regard this as a very > interesting anomaly. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 29 20:53:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9U3rBpM002121; Sat, 29 Oct 2005 20:53:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9U3rANP002105; Sat, 29 Oct 2005 20:53:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 20:53:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT: Scapegoats and M.O.s Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 14:52:48 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <2mg8m1h1aubmr09mp9aahbgqe3b9p1ncme 4ax.com> References: <001201c5dcb9$300a2980$6401a8c0 NuDell> In-Reply-To: <001201c5dcb9$300a2980$6401a8c0 NuDell> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.77.227] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Sun, 30 Oct 2005 03:52:48 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j9U3qq40002010 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64209 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Sat, 29 Oct 2005 11:47:17 -0700: Hi, [snip] >A modus operandi can be used to narrow down an investigation amongst a group of criminals because for some proven but not well-understood reason, even the smartest criminals get into patterns of conduct - and stay there even after they have been discovered. The reason is simple and is directly related to the subconscious mind. Patterns of conduct follow directly from learned behavior. In order to follow a new pattern, one has to learn new things. The mind is inherently lazy, or "efficient" if you prefer, and reuses existing knowledge as much as possible. Hence people tend to follow the same patterns of behavior, usually without even realizing that they are doing so. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 29 21:09:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9U48aUr006190; Sat, 29 Oct 2005 21:08:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9U48Yln006164; Sat, 29 Oct 2005 21:08:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 21:08:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: focus fusion Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 00:19:53 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200510300019.53263.rockcast earthlink.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64210 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Saturday 29 October 2005 22:20, thomas malloy wrote: > I linked to this website. They are claiming an ion density of 1.7 X > 10^ 21 per CC, a significant number. Their plan is to fuse deuterium > and boron, an interesting concept. They are looking $5 million, which > is peanuts compaired to the $5 billion that the Bush Administration > is reported to have given the hot fusioneers. I'm looking forward to > Ed Storms evalution of the technical feasibility of their plan. > > http://www.focusfusion.org/research/plan.html > > I also found the website of a cosmologist who says that the Big Bang > didn't happen. From there I linked to a site which is promoting a two > set DVD on the origins of the universe. www.universe-film.com . This > sounds like something that we might like watching at the Tesla > Society meeting. Tom, I wish to add the other number claimed on the website of the Focus Fusion folks: " The density-confinement time product was thus 9x[10^13] ions-sec/cm3, compared with 1.25x[10^13] ions-sec/cm3 for the best tokamak results to date.." direct quote from the site. I think that is a fine job so far. Standing Bear From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 29 21:32:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9U4VXeA012208; Sat, 29 Oct 2005 21:31:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9U4VUf5012196; Sat, 29 Oct 2005 21:31:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 21:31:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20051029212612.028ce750 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 21:27:58 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: IdleTimeActiveImagination.htm Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <7vDaeB.A.g-C.iyEZDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64211 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: V Somebody (not me) with spare time and an active imagination passed this along to me. Too good not to share. http://newenergytimes.com/news/IdleTimeActiveImagination.htm s From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 29 22:43:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9U5hRtt030006; Sat, 29 Oct 2005 22:43:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9U5hOqm029987; Sat, 29 Oct 2005 22:43:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 22:43:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: focus fusion Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 16:42:57 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta03ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.77.227] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Sun, 30 Oct 2005 05:42:57 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j9U5h2r2029866 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64212 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to thomas malloy's message of Sat, 29 Oct 2005 21:20:04 -0500: Hi, [snip] >I linked to this website. They are claiming an ion density of 1.7 X >10^ 21 per CC, a significant number. Their plan is to fuse deuterium >and boron, an interesting concept. I think that's protium and boron. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 30 07:39:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9UFcZDC010798; Sun, 30 Oct 2005 07:38:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9UFcWsG010776; Sun, 30 Oct 2005 07:38:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 07:38:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4364E8B0.7000100 ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 08:37:20 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: focus fusion References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64213 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I have to admire the people proposing to fuse H and B using Farnsworth fuser. They will learn a lot and may actually make a useful contribution in the future. Three problems exist. First, if they can actually achieve a sufficient temperature to fuse H and B at a rate to make useful energy, they should be able to fuse deuterium at a much higher rate, hence produce even more useful energy. Second, the cross-section for a two-element to one element fusion reaction is very small because a gamma ray is required to carry some momentum away. For example, the cross-section for the D+D to He reaction is trivial in a plasma. This fusion reaction goes only because two other branches are possible that produce two particles each. Third, the H and B need to be in gaseous form. Boron forms a number of hydrides that are gas (B2H6 and B4H10 for example). However, these compounds are fairly unstable and will decompose in the plasma. As a result the boron will be quickly removed from the plasma as fine powder. In addition, the compounds are very toxic, not something a person without training and suitable equipment wants to play with. In short, it is doubtful this method will produce useful energy although it might generated a few fusion reactions. The problem will be to know that such fusion has actually happened. B11 would produce C12 and some gamma radiation. B10 would produce C11 which is a weak positron emitter. Because this has a 20 min half-life, it may be possible to detect its presence with suitable equipment. As far as I know, other branches are not available for this reaction. In short, this is a nice training exercise, but has no hope of being useful. Regards, Ed thomas malloy wrote: > I linked to this website. They are claiming an ion density of 1.7 X 10^ > 21 per CC, a significant number. Their plan is to fuse deuterium and > boron, an interesting concept. They are looking $5 million, which is > peanuts compaired to the $5 billion that the Bush Administration is > reported to have given the hot fusioneers. I'm looking forward to Ed > Storms evalution of the technical feasibility of their plan. > > http://www.focusfusion.org/research/plan.html > > I also found the website of a cosmologist who says that the Big Bang > didn't happen. From there I linked to a site which is promoting a two > set DVD on the origins of the universe. www.universe-film.com . This > sounds like something that we might like watching at the Tesla Society > meeting. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 30 08:26:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9UGPSJO001274; Sun, 30 Oct 2005 08:25:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9UGPOg7001197; Sun, 30 Oct 2005 08:25:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 08:25:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=XaeBG9KRwqAd+juqHHpPY87XKM1C0EE1npOIfr+Z3Ny35fznXqA6SVNhQ/wVVoBGWUfN7IYrKKERjLJA3vr8OZXWKA1jsctHnHekkj2NcS8/aRf49ccGyvkIjnIBHD01YECwo8fQqcj8ZW+M5wimQfq72gZ7XPpDlTp8XZBQ9iQ= ; Message-ID: <20051030162457.36741.qmail web81101.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 08:24:57 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene Subject: Samhain-Science-Snicker To: vortex-l MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <4Jk0C.A.bS.xPPZDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64214 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Is it a "hallowed dream" or a "hollow dream" that the solution to the energy crisis in right around the Franken-corner? http://www.otherpower.com/hamster.html Guess you noticed that-one is apropos for the season and another version of trick-or-treat, but just imagine a GM mod to skippy with about 400 ft-lbs of torque ;-) BTW, in one of the vagaries of converting fern-pronunciation into spelling, "Samhain" is pronounced as "sow-en"... it is the Celtic predecessor to you-know-what. Younger Vo's may not realize that not long ago, in the '50s-60s, there was real concern in the USA on a national level, that this night was being taken over by thugs and anarchists and might evolve into something really horrific. Many of this year's less-threatening neighborhood-kid participants will be dressed-up as a certain freakish character, which is a product of human inventiveness, fostered upon an evolutionary "medium." Which brings up the literary point that Mary Shelley's famous novel is probably the most misunderstood piece in all of fiction. Her scientist, Victor Frankenstein, claimed "benevolent" intentions; and she even subtitled her novel "The Modern Prometheus." Vic's biggest problem was arrogance, but that puts him in good company with 99% of all scientists, most of whom are able, these days, to thinly disguise it a little better than in the past. From there on, as far as Franky is concerned, Hollywood takes over... but now with genetic engineering, we may be poised to bring some life back into the idea of a useful manufactured life-form - not so much as a human replacement (not now, at least) but in simpler guise as an advanced energy source. According to Greek myth, Prometheus stole "fire" from the gods. As punishment, he was chained to a rock, where an eagle each day plucked at his liver. This says more about the sad state of Greek theology than about human arrogance. Haughty Prometheus sought fire for good reasons, however: human betterment - one must surmise, and that should not be at odds with any modern concept of ID. Anyway, the modern manifestation of this arrogant-scientist stealing-secrets is proceeding on many fronts, despite protests from those who think we should not tamper with life-forces. We already have options of harvesting either hydrogen or fuel-alcohols from genetically modified single-celled life. These fuels could be converted in a fuel cell for electricity. But why not dispense with the need for the fuel cell? We know many life forms can convert carbos directly into electric charge - isn't that the next Franken-step in the natural progression of playing-god - harvesting the charge directly rather than reforming carbos? Halloween actually has some of its origins in the Catholic Church attempting to co-opt a pagan holiday (if you can't beat'em, join 'em)- and now this "holiday" has evolved into a Franken-form of "All Saints Day." Celtic myth, in contrast, says that on Samhain the disembodied spirits of all those who had died throughout the preceding year, and failed to be reincarnated, would come back in search of living bodies to "possess". It was believed to be their only hope for the afterlife. The Celts believed all laws of space and time were suspended during this one interface in time, allowing the spirit world to intermingle with the living for a few hours at the end of harvest on Oct 31. This is an interesting starting point for a revised mythology. And since this Irish have always been able to tolerate eels as an energy (food) resource, it might be re-worked somehow into future avenue for bio-technology. Already genes from "Electrophorus electricus" (aka the electric eel) have been genetically modified with mutants and place in plants for certain purposes, not involving electricity per se. The protein kinases and acetylcholinesterase pathways which nature has perfected over billions of years in the electric eel and other species is an asset - even if we put them into another simpler life-form for the express purpose of creating electric charge - which is after all kind of the reverse of the way old Victor got his protoge motivated. Wouldn't it be nice to power the house and maybe the car with grass clipping put into a computer-controlled bio-reactor, and with nothing else to worry about. On a lighter note, I am clearly not an agent provocateur for the AAEEP, you know, the Association For The Advancement Of Electric Eel Power. What this is about is putting those modified genes into Alga or some-such (talk about tight-fitting genes) OK. Now that the enegy-problem has been solved ... what to provide the trick-or-treaters? Exhausted hamsters? Jones Credits: Yes hamsters are just one more instance of bio-engineering progress - following this bit of brilliant insight from a very odd newsgroup, by one zooby - who should be a frequent vo-poster: "Since the domestication of the hamster and similar creatures who demonstrate a proclivity for running in wheels that go nowhere and do nothing, mankind has dreamed of the day technology would evolve to the degree that this wasted energy could be tapped and turned into a useful source of power." Engineer DanF, staffmember of the Otherpower.com organization, has succeeded in isolating and overcoming all the final hurdles that have been standing in the way of utilization of this important power source, and created a means for his stalwart hamster, Skippy, to generate electricity. The primary problem has always been that hamsters don't turn their wheels at fast enough revolutions per minute to operate conventional alternators or generators. DanF's breakthrough was in the design of a special low-RPM alternator which overcomes the inherent slowness of the hamster by greatly increasing the number of North and South poles that pass the stationary coils per revolution. In this way Skippy has been enabled to generate current at a pressure of two volts! Skippy now effortlessly lights two red LEDs without breaking a sweat. Advanced tests have shown that he is able to light as many as six LEDs with no apparent trouble. ---------------- Now just wait (weight) untill we get skippy tipping the scales at a couple of tons - tha's what I'm talkin' about... I think that the transition to GM hamster power is a forgone conclusion. OTOH in the event of some oversight, will power outages sweep the nations if freed hamsters revert to their savage nature and run wild in the streets, attacking the ankles of their former taskmasters. Not since Thomas Edison's concerted attack on Alternating Current, when he falsely claimed that with AC everyone would be getting electrocuted, have I seen such dastardly propaganda. The facts: Hamsters are noramlly cute and furry and friendly. There is just no downside to hamster power except GM, so forget the mods and go natural... Coming soon: Patent #4,699,216.7 Electric Hamster Prod for increased power output from your Hamster Generator System. Second Law arguments may apply in some states. OTOH...few will use the hamster prod once they realise it takes more energy to operate once than you can get out of a hamster in a week, and electric eels can do it for a fraction of the carbos. Sure, there's alot of power available from the average electric eel, but they're not cute, and you can't pet them. They require expensive, massive water-filled containment facilities. Electric eel power will just lead to more big, price-controling, centralized utility companies since people won't want to keep them in their homes. With electric eel power, every side is a down side unless we removed the genes... and the is tantamount to porno - no? Enuf already, I got the seasonal Franken-laugh (or gimace) in. Let's get back to more normal irrationality for a while. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 30 08:45:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9UGj6QH013367; Sun, 30 Oct 2005 08:45:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9UGj3YN013357; Sun, 30 Oct 2005 08:45:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 08:45:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [192.82.6.0] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes msn.com] X-Sender: mgoldes msn.com In-Reply-To: <20051030162457.36741.qmail web81101.mail.yahoo.com> From: "Mark Goldes" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Samhain-Science-Snicker Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 08:44:39 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Oct 2005 16:44:39.0902 (UTC) FILETIME=[388217E0:01C5DD71] Resent-Message-ID: <1GvoKC.A.pQD.OiPZDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64215 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones, Hilarious! Mark >From: Jones Beene >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com >To: vortex-l >Subject: Samhain-Science-Snicker >Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 08:24:57 -0800 (PST) > >Is it a "hallowed dream" or a "hollow dream" that the >solution to the energy crisis in right around the >Franken-corner? > >http://www.otherpower.com/hamster.html > >Guess you noticed that-one is apropos for the season >and another version of trick-or-treat, but just >imagine a GM mod to skippy with about 400 ft-lbs of >torque ;-) > >BTW, in one of the vagaries of converting >fern-pronunciation into spelling, "Samhain" is >pronounced as "sow-en"... it is the Celtic predecessor >to you-know-what. Younger Vo's may not realize that >not long ago, in the '50s-60s, there was real concern >in the USA on a national level, that this night was >being taken over by thugs and anarchists and might >evolve into something really horrific. > >Many of this year's less-threatening neighborhood-kid >participants will be dressed-up as a certain freakish >character, which is a product of human inventiveness, >fostered upon an evolutionary "medium." Which brings >up the literary point that Mary Shelley's famous novel >is probably the most misunderstood piece in all of >fiction. Her scientist, Victor Frankenstein, claimed >"benevolent" intentions; and she even subtitled her >novel "The Modern Prometheus." > >Vic's biggest problem was arrogance, but that puts him >in good company with 99% of all scientists, most of >whom are able, these days, to thinly disguise it a >little better than in the past. From there on, as far >as Franky is concerned, Hollywood takes over... but >now with genetic engineering, we may be poised to >bring some life back into the idea of a useful >manufactured life-form - not so much as a human >replacement (not now, at least) but in simpler guise >as an advanced energy source. > >According to Greek myth, Prometheus stole "fire" from >the gods. As punishment, he was chained to a rock, >where an eagle each day plucked at his liver. This >says more about the sad state of Greek theology than >about human arrogance. Haughty Prometheus sought fire >for good reasons, however: human betterment - one must >surmise, and that should not be at odds with any >modern concept of ID. > >Anyway, the modern manifestation of this >arrogant-scientist stealing-secrets is proceeding on >many fronts, despite protests from those who think we >should not tamper with life-forces. We already have >options of harvesting either hydrogen or fuel-alcohols >from genetically modified single-celled life. These >fuels could be converted in a fuel cell for >electricity. > >But why not dispense with the need for the fuel cell? >We know many life forms can convert carbos directly >into electric charge - isn't that the next >Franken-step in the natural progression of playing-god >- harvesting the charge directly rather than reforming >carbos? > >Halloween actually has some of its origins in the >Catholic Church attempting to co-opt a pagan holiday >(if you can't beat'em, join 'em)- and now this >"holiday" has evolved into a Franken-form of "All >Saints Day." Celtic myth, in contrast, says that on >Samhain the disembodied spirits of all those who had >died throughout the preceding year, and failed to be >reincarnated, would come back in search of living >bodies to "possess". It was believed to be their only >hope for the afterlife. The Celts believed all laws of >space and time were suspended during this one >interface in time, allowing the spirit world to >intermingle with the living for a few hours at the end >of harvest on Oct 31. > >This is an interesting starting point for a revised >mythology. And since this Irish have always been able >to tolerate eels as an energy (food) resource, it >might be re-worked somehow into future avenue for >bio-technology. Already genes from "Electrophorus >electricus" (aka the electric eel) have been >genetically modified with mutants and place in plants >for certain purposes, not involving electricity per >se. The protein kinases and acetylcholinesterase >pathways which nature has perfected over billions of >years in the electric eel and other species is an >asset - even if we put them into another simpler >life-form for the express purpose of creating electric >charge - which is after all kind of the reverse of the >way old Victor got his protoge motivated. > >Wouldn't it be nice to power the house and maybe the >car with grass clipping put into a computer-controlled >bio-reactor, and with nothing else to worry about. > >On a lighter note, I am clearly not an agent >provocateur for the AAEEP, you know, the Association >For The Advancement Of Electric Eel Power. What this >is about is putting those modified genes into Alga or >some-such (talk about tight-fitting genes) > >OK. Now that the enegy-problem has been solved ... >what to provide the trick-or-treaters? Exhausted >hamsters? > >Jones > >Credits: Yes hamsters are just one more instance of >bio-engineering progress - following this bit of >brilliant insight from a very odd newsgroup, by one >zooby - who should be a frequent vo-poster: > >"Since the domestication of the hamster and similar >creatures who demonstrate a proclivity for running in >wheels that go nowhere and do nothing, mankind has >dreamed of the day technology would evolve to the >degree that this wasted energy could be tapped and >turned into a useful source of power." > >Engineer DanF, staffmember of the Otherpower.com >organization, has succeeded in isolating and >overcoming all the final hurdles that have been >standing in the way of utilization of this important >power source, and created a means for his stalwart >hamster, Skippy, to generate electricity. > >The primary problem has always been that hamsters >don't turn their wheels at fast enough revolutions per >minute to operate conventional alternators or >generators. DanF's breakthrough was in the design of a >special low-RPM alternator which overcomes the >inherent slowness of the hamster by greatly increasing >the number of North and South poles that pass the >stationary coils per revolution. In this way Skippy >has been enabled to generate current at a pressure of >two volts! > >Skippy now effortlessly lights two red LEDs without >breaking a sweat. Advanced tests have shown that he is >able to light as many as six LEDs with no apparent >trouble. >---------------- >Now just wait (weight) untill we get skippy tipping >the scales at a couple of tons - tha's what I'm >talkin' about... I think that the transition to GM >hamster power is a forgone conclusion. > >OTOH in the event of some oversight, will power >outages sweep the nations if freed hamsters revert to >their savage nature and run wild in the streets, >attacking the ankles of their former taskmasters. > >Not since Thomas Edison's concerted attack on >Alternating Current, when he falsely claimed that with >AC everyone would be getting electrocuted, have I seen >such dastardly propaganda. > >The facts: >Hamsters are noramlly cute and furry and friendly. >There is just no downside to hamster power except GM, >so forget the mods and go natural... Coming soon: >Patent #4,699,216.7 Electric Hamster Prod for >increased power output from your Hamster Generator >System. > >Second Law arguments may apply in some states. >OTOH...few will use the hamster prod once they realise >it takes more energy to operate once than you can get >out of a hamster in a week, and electric eels can do >it for a fraction of the carbos. > >Sure, there's alot of power available from the average >electric eel, but they're not cute, and you can't pet >them. They require expensive, massive water-filled >containment facilities. Electric eel power will just >lead to more big, price-controling, centralized >utility companies since people won't want to keep them >in their homes. > >With electric eel power, every side is a down side >unless we removed the genes... and the is tantamount >to porno - no? > >Enuf already, I got the seasonal Franken-laugh (or >gimace) in. > >Let's get back to more normal irrationality for a while. > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 30 09:07:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9UH6J37024440; Sun, 30 Oct 2005 09:06:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9UH6ITf024414; Sun, 30 Oct 2005 09:06:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 09:06:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=Hn6heOiPD8m+9EoNJu1N1kJfgtE3MmX3W/biFM4VaPw0s+EekPmZdtznOu7oe7r6; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220051003016525190 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: focus fusion Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 10:05:25 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940cbc880df4f42f2dc74e085ed3e297b03350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.165.158 Resent-Message-ID: <8eHWbB.A.R9F.J2PZDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64216 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ed Teller's pet was the Proton-Li7 ---> 2 He4 + 17.3 Mev reaction. But, according to his fusion article in my late 1940s Britannica he said it would never happen. :-) Fred Edmund Storms wrote: > > I have to admire the people proposing to fuse H and B using Farnsworth > fuser. They will learn a lot and may actually make a useful contribution > in the future. Three problems exist. First, if they can actually > achieve a sufficient temperature to fuse H and B at a rate to make > useful energy, they should be able to fuse deuterium at a much higher > rate, hence produce even more useful energy. Second, the cross-section > for a two-element to one element fusion reaction is very small because a > gamma ray is required to carry some momentum away. For example, the > cross-section for the D+D to He reaction is trivial in a plasma. This > fusion reaction goes only because two other branches are possible that > produce two particles each. Third, the H and B need to be in gaseous > form. Boron forms a number of hydrides that are gas (B2H6 and B4H10 for > example). However, these compounds are fairly unstable and will > decompose in the plasma. As a result the boron will be quickly removed > from the plasma as fine powder. In addition, the compounds are very > toxic, not something a person without training and suitable equipment > wants to play with. In short, it is doubtful this method will produce > useful energy although it might generated a few fusion reactions. The > problem will be to know that such fusion has actually happened. B11 > would produce C12 and some gamma radiation. B10 would produce C11 which > is a weak positron emitter. Because this has a 20 min half-life, it may > be possible to detect its presence with suitable equipment. As far as I > know, other branches are not available for this reaction. > > In short, this is a nice training exercise, but has no hope of being useful. > > Regards, > Ed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 30 09:36:01 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9UHZTKZ002267; Sun, 30 Oct 2005 09:35:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9UHZRQ8002248; Sun, 30 Oct 2005 09:35:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 09:35:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <4enjrj$1jluooi mxip18a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.97,267,1125892800"; d="scan'208"; a="1734304530:sNHT14686188" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: OrionWorks Organization: OrionWorks To: CC: Subject: Re: Samhain-Science-Snicker Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 11:35:04 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64217 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones sez: ... > Sure, there's alot of power available from the average > electric eel, but they're not cute, and you can't pet > them. They require expensive, massive water-filled > containment facilities. Electric eel power will just > lead to more big, price-controling, centralized > utility companies since people won't want to keep them > in their homes. I propose GAESFF, Genetically Altered Electrified Siamese Fighting Fish. As we all know the males are prolific fighters often displaying fantastic threat displays before engaging in mortal combat. Aquarium aficionados often put two males in the tank with a glass plate separating them to enhance threat displays. What we need to do is genetically alter the males so that when they exhibit threat displays it generates electricity. All we then need to do is fill one side of the aquarium with genetically altered RED Siamese males (RED is obviously negatively charged). On the other side of the aquarium we fill with blue Siamese males (BLUE is obviously positively charged.) We will, of course, alter the males so they will be blind to their own color, preventing them from attacking their own kind (and charge). Once they notice the opposing colored males across the glass barrier other just stick in two probes on both ends of the tank and let them have it. Please note that in this scenario no animals will be harmed. I don't think the ASPCA would be concerned about arranged threat displays. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 30 09:59:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9UHwSm4010092; Sun, 30 Oct 2005 09:58:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9UHwQgW010066; Sun, 30 Oct 2005 09:58:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 09:58:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [192.82.6.0] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes msn.com] X-Sender: mgoldes msn.com From: "Mark Goldes" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Kiril Chukanov Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 09:58:03 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Oct 2005 17:58:04.0379 (UTC) FILETIME=[79C7F2B0:01C5DD7B] Resent-Message-ID: <8Q9ukB.A.GdC.BnQZDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64218 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vo, Kiril was probably the first individual to produce artificial ball lightning. MPI helped him escape to the U.S. from Bulgaria while the Cold Was was still happening. He has persevered ever since and produced working prototypes of his energy device. It appears it may be valid work. If so, it should be of some interest to vortexians. A healthy dose of Sodium Chloride should be kept handy when he wanders away from ball lightning. The weapons overtones and his posting them concern me greatly in the event he is correct. The message below arrived this morning. Mark I just posted in my web-site www.chukanovenergy.com my last book "Ball Lightning - The Great Hopes and The Great Fears". This book contains all important information about my twenty years work on this problem. Posted recently are also my book "General Quantum Mechanics" - volume III and my lessons on QFE. Kiril From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 30 11:10:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9UJ9scw004249; Sun, 30 Oct 2005 11:10:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9UJ9qxU004237; Sun, 30 Oct 2005 11:09:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 11:09:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=NM7Cc0IfxfuriLw4IyGwtSJieD//TMmokJ/Tibz6TauW6hjK8VcXF0DO23iLulh+; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220051003018826850 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Cold fusion with Ti Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 12:08:26 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940a60026377568306381686a9dbeb51490350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.159.211 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64219 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII One out of every 11,170 atoms of Potassium is Radioactive Potassium-40 with a 1.28 billion year half-life. ~ 11% of these emit a 1.46 eV gamma and/or a Positron which annihilates with an electron giving off two 0.511 Mev gammas. Discharge of the K+ ions on the Ti can form a gamma-emitting Potassium Titanate, Or you can get a radio-stable "Calcium Titanate" or Argon 40. http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/Bernardinianomalouse.pdf http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l eskimo.com/msg09085.html How much Carbon-14 in the CO2? Could it get/stay in/on the TI surface? Ed? Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

One out of every 11,170 atoms of Potassium is Radioactive Potassium-40
with a 1.28 billion year half-life.
~ 11% of these emit a 1.46 eV gamma and/or a Positron which annihilates
with an electron giving off two 0.511 Mev gammas.
 
Discharge of the K+ ions on the Ti can form a gamma-emitting Potassium Titanate,
 
Or you can get a radio-stable "Calcium Titanate" or Argon 40.
 
 
 
How much Carbon-14 in the CO2? Could it get/stay in/on the TI surface?   Ed?
 
Fred
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 30 16:05:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9V04vZO006214; Sun, 30 Oct 2005 16:05:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9V04s6Z006193; Sun, 30 Oct 2005 16:04:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 16:04:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002a01c5ddae$a85f40f0$ae037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Kiril Chukanov Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 18:04:25 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0026_01C5DD7C.5D0BE130"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.5 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,HTML_50_60,HTML_MESSAGE,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64220 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01C5DD7C.5D0BE130 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0027_01C5DD7C.5D0BE130" ------=_NextPart_001_0027_01C5DD7C.5D0BE130 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankMark Goldes posted this link to Chukanov website that reports on = his work with ball lightning www.chukanovenergy.com Here is another link on ball lightning that has some interesting views. http://ascension2000.com/ConvergenceIII/c307.htm Few people have ever seen ball lightning in nature. I saw it once during = a fierce combo hurricane and lightning storm in 1932 at Galveston bay = near LaPorte Texas. The massive bolt of lightning struck across the raod = from our home. As the bolt decayed, the segments were visible and I saw = several separate balls float toward the ground. They were glowing and = had fiery tails on their tops similar to a quepee doll's tuft of hair on = top. they disaappeared in the undergrowth . The toatal time frame was in = seconds. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0027_01C5DD7C.5D0BE130 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Mark Goldes posted this link to Chukanov website that reports on = his work=20 with ball lightning

www.chukanovenergy.com

Here is another link on ball lightning that has some interesting = views.

http://ascensio= n2000.com/ConvergenceIII/c307.htm

Few=20 people have ever seen ball lightning in nature. I saw it once during a = fierce=20 combo hurricane and lightning storm in 1932 at Galveston bay near = LaPorte Texas.=20 The massive bolt of lightning struck across the raod from our home. As = the bolt=20 decayed, the segments were visible and I saw several separate balls = float toward=20 the ground. They were glowing and had fiery tails on their tops similar = to a=20 quepee doll's tuft of hair on top. they disaappeared in the undergrowth = . The=20 toatal time frame was in seconds.

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_0027_01C5DD7C.5D0BE130-- ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01C5DD7C.5D0BE130 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <002501c5ddae$a7989590$ae037841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01C5DD7C.5D0BE130-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 31 08:10:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9VGA3CS012892; Mon, 31 Oct 2005 08:10:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9VGA1wJ012842; Mon, 31 Oct 2005 08:10:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 08:10:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <09cd01c5de35$7d36e630$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <002a01c5ddae$a85f40f0$ae037841 xptower> Subject: Re: Kiril Chukanov Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 08:09:35 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_09C9_01C5DDF2.6EB44820" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64221 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_09C9_01C5DDF2.6EB44820 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_09CA_01C5DDF2.6EB44820" ------=_NextPart_001_09CA_01C5DDF2.6EB44820 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankEverytime I think about ball lightning, I wonder if it could be = related to a larger version of the EVO of Ken Shoulders. Could there be = two different stability regimes for a massive number of temporarily = bound-electrons (one micron-range and one cm-range)? Also there is that recurrent image of the "ball torus" which everyone = thinks at first glance is a sphere but it really is a torus in which the = ID has shrunk to zero, and the luminosity prohibits seeing the inner = features at the poles. The name for this shape is the "spherical toroid" = and the newer Tokomak designs also approach this shape. This particular toroid shape you will recall is also present in the = "bubble" - which collapses in sonoluminescence. It is really not = spherical at all but toroidal. Jones ... or maybe all this shape-musing is a further manifestation of the = earwig I been plagued by lately, thanks to Lucinda: I wanna watch the ocean bend the edges of the sun in... BTW, this reference to "VD"s in the cited article by Richard (Ball = lightning being one of a number of natural phenomena, which Dmitriev et = al. refer to as =93vacuum domains=94 or =93VDs) is an unfortunate = acronym - as was the acronym "EV" before it was slightly improved to = "EVO" but is that a Russian or a Freudian slip? It also reminds me of an old post of Fred about "Dark Suckers". Electric = bulbs which don't emit light; they suck dark. It is a funny article and = probably in the Vortex archives - and like so many things which show up = here - there is a hint of truth to it. ERGO: Ball lightning could be both VD and dark-sucker ;-)=20 Now I should just end it there... but as there is some punny material in = that aforementioned article (even if insightful), and as this is a slow = morning : then, speaking of VDs, and VDs-as-angels etc, and "levity = disks" and exploiting dark-suckers -=20 ....I am trying hard not to mention Hugh Grant's old associate... wasn't = the name "Divine Brown" ... ----- Original Message -----=20 From: RC Macaulay=20 To: vortex-l eskimo.com=20 Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2005 4:04 PM Subject: Re: Kiril Chukanov Mark Goldes posted this link to Chukanov website that reports on his = work with ball lightning www.chukanovenergy.com Here is another link on ball lightning that has some interesting = views. http://ascension2000.com/ConvergenceIII/c307.htm Few people have ever seen ball lightning in nature. I saw it once = during a fierce combo hurricane and lightning storm in 1932 at Galveston = bay near LaPorte Texas. The massive bolt of lightning struck across the = raod from our home. As the bolt decayed, the segments were visible and I = saw several separate balls float toward the ground. They were glowing = and had fiery tails on their tops similar to a quepee doll's tuft of = hair on top. they disaappeared in the undergrowth . The toatal time = frame was in seconds. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_09CA_01C5DDF2.6EB44820 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Everytime I think about ball lightning, I wonder if it could be = related to=20 a larger version of the EVO of Ken Shoulders. Could there be two = different=20 stability regimes for a massive number of temporarily bound-electrons = (one=20 micron-range and one cm-range)?
 
Also there is that recurrent image of the "ball torus" which = everyone=20 thinks at first glance is a sphere but it really is a torus in which the = ID has=20 shrunk to zero, and the luminosity prohibits seeing the inner features = at the=20 poles. The name for this shape is the "spherical toroid" and the newer = Tokomak=20 designs also approach this shape.
 
This particular toroid shape you will recall is also present = in the=20 "bubble" - which collapses in sonoluminescence. It is really not = spherical at=20 all but toroidal.
 
Jones
 
... or maybe all this shape-musing is a further manifestation = of the=20 earwig I been plagued by lately, thanks to Lucinda:
I wanna watch the ocean bend
the edges of the sun in...
 
BTW, this reference to "VD"s in the cited article by = Richard (Ball lightning being one of a number = of=20 natural phenomena, which Dmitriev et al. refer to as =93vacuum = domains=94 or =93VDs)=20 is an unfortunate acronym - as was the acronym "EV" before it was = slightly=20 improved to "EVO" but is that a Russian or a Freudian slip?
 
It also reminds me of an old post of Fred about "Dark = Suckers".=20 Electric bulbs which don't emit light; they suck dark. It is a = funny=20 article and probably in the Vortex archives - and like so many things = which show=20 up here - there is a hint of truth to it.
 
ERGO: Ball lightning could be both VD and=20 dark-sucker ;-) 
 
Now I should just end it there... but as there is = some punny=20 material in that aforementioned article (even if insightful), and as = this is a=20 slow morning : then, speaking of VDs, and VDs-as-angels etc, = and=20 "levity disks" and exploiting dark-suckers -
 
....I am trying hard not to mention Hugh Grant's old = associate...=20 wasn't the name "Divine Brown" ...
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 RC = Macaulay=20
Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2005 = 4:04=20 PM
Subject: Re: Kiril = Chukanov

Mark Goldes posted this link to Chukanov website that reports on = his work=20 with ball lightning

www.chukanovenergy.com

Here is another link on ball lightning that has some interesting = views.

http://ascensio= n2000.com/ConvergenceIII/c307.htm

Few=20 people have ever seen ball lightning in nature. I saw it once during a = fierce=20 combo hurricane and lightning storm in 1932 at Galveston bay near = LaPorte=20 Texas. The massive bolt of lightning struck across the raod from our = home. As=20 the bolt decayed, the segments were visible and I saw several separate = balls=20 float toward the ground. They were glowing and had fiery tails on = their tops=20 similar to a quepee doll's tuft of hair on top. they disaappeared in = the=20 undergrowth . The toatal time frame was in seconds.

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_09CA_01C5DDF2.6EB44820-- ------=_NextPart_000_09C9_01C5DDF2.6EB44820 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <09c801c5de35$7ccba140$6401a8c0 NuDell> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_09C9_01C5DDF2.6EB44820-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 31 09:25:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9VHOdgj021003; Mon, 31 Oct 2005 09:24:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9VHOaMX020976; Mon, 31 Oct 2005 09:24:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 09:24:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <1b3a01c5de3f$e842e050$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: The Geometry of OU Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 09:24:10 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_1B37_01C5DDFC.D9AAE580" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <-SqXRB.A.oHF.UNlZDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64222 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_1B37_01C5DDFC.D9AAE580 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Is the shape of the cavitation bubble in sonofusion always a torus or = flattened-bubble?=20 Is ball lightning "always" a torus, rather than a real sphere? Why are "smoke rings" so stable? Not sure. There is a famous image of the cavitation bubble, somewhere on = the web, but for some reason a google search has turned up nothing yet. = I do not know if the image is representative of all "active" bubbles or = not. This could be far more than an issue of idle curiosity, when it comes to = alternative energy. Anyway, with regard to the subject of "coincidental" geometry on a = number of different scales - there is the following, which is currently = the evolutionary trend in modern "hot" fusion, and we once again see the = spherical torus instead of the earlier topologies [This is after they = have already blown about $15,000,000,000 and never produced as many = neutrons as some of the amateur Farnsworth devices.] http://www.plasma.inpe.br/LAP_Portal/LAP_Site/Text/Spherical_Torus.htm Coincidence - or is this the most efficient topology for the fusion = reaction (hot, cold or warm) going to be this spherical toroid? Well, the geometric factor of interest for hot fusion is said to be the = "Aspect ratio - the single most important geometric characteristic of a = tokamak is the aspect ratio; a number larger than unity corresponding to = the ratio between the major and the minor radii of the plasma torus " Jones Like any good detective, Navajo or not (Joe Leaphorn) - one should be = very suspicious of coincidences. The Navajos, BTW take the extreme view = of nature and the so-called "butterfly" effect... for them there is NO = coincidence in nature. ------=_NextPart_000_1B37_01C5DDFC.D9AAE580 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Is the shape of = the cavitation=20 bubble in sonofusion always a torus or flattened-bubble?
 
Is ball lightning "always" a torus, = rather than a=20 real sphere?
 
Why are "smoke rings" so = stable?
 
Not sure. There is a famous image of = the cavitation=20 bubble, somewhere on the web, but for some reason a google search = has=20 turned up nothing yet. I do not know if the image is representative of = all=20 "active" bubbles or not.
 
This could be far more than an issue of = idle=20 curiosity, when it comes to alternative energy.
 
Anyway, with regard to the subject=20 of "coincidental" geometry on a number of different scales - = there is=20 the following, which is currently the evolutionary trend in modern "hot" = fusion,=20 and we once again see the spherical torus instead of the earlier = topologies=20 [This is after they have already blown about $15,000,000,000 and never = produced=20 as many neutrons as some of the amateur Farnsworth = devices.]
http://www.plasma.inpe.br/LAP_Portal/LAP_Site/Text/Spherical_Tor= us.htm
 
Coincidence - or is this the most = efficient=20 topology for the fusion reaction (hot, cold or warm) going to be this = spherical=20 toroid?
 
Well, the geometric factor of = interest for hot=20 fusion is said to be the "Aspect ratio - the=20 single most important geometric characteristic of a tokamak is the = aspect ratio;=20 a number larger than unity corresponding to the ratio between the major = and the=20 minor radii of the plasma torus "
 
Jones
 
Like any good detective, Navajo or not = (Joe=20 Leaphorn) - one should be very suspicious of coincidences. The Navajos, = BTW take=20 the extreme view of nature and the so-called "butterfly" effect... for = them=20 there is NO coincidence in nature.
 
------=_NextPart_000_1B37_01C5DDFC.D9AAE580-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 31 13:37:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9VLas3V010949; Mon, 31 Oct 2005 13:37:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9VLaHog010695; Mon, 31 Oct 2005 13:36:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 13:36:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000e01c5de63$0fd3bb30$e1027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: The Geometry of OU Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 15:35:48 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01C5DE30.C4572890" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.6 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,HTML_MESSAGE,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64223 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C5DE30.C4572890 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000B_01C5DE30.C4572890" ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C5DE30.C4572890 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankJones , Speaking of geometry and the torus, there is some more input in the = aformentioned website regarding torus and " cones"on pages prior to the = ball lightning shot by Dmitriev. Seems the study of cones shaped winding led to positioning cones point = to point and reverse. Wierd stuff supposedly not to play around with. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C5DE30.C4572890 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Jones ,
Speaking of geometry and the torus, there is some more input in the = aformentioned website  regarding torus and " cones"on pages prior = to the=20 ball lightning shot by Dmitriev.
 
Seems the study of cones shaped winding led to  positioning = cones=20 point to point and reverse. Wierd stuff supposedly not to play around=20 with.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C5DE30.C4572890-- ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C5DE30.C4572890 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000901c5de63$0ed49ab0$e1027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C5DE30.C4572890-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 31 20:34:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA14YLHJ003651; Mon, 31 Oct 2005 20:34:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA14YIVL003621; Mon, 31 Oct 2005 20:34:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 20:34:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <001e01c5de9d$74c69410$fa027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: The Geometry of OU Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 22:33:48 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001A_01C5DE6B.29A42F60" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.5 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64224 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C5DE6B.29A42F60 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_001B_01C5DE6B.29A42F60" ------=_NextPart_001_001B_01C5DE6B.29A42F60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankJones wrote.. Is the shape of the cavitation bubble in sonofusion always a torus or = flattened-bubble?=20 Here is a link, http://www.vor-env.com/ultrasonic.shtml The bubble appears to be torus shaped.. but.. there appears to be an = interesting vortex in the center.=20 As our company work progresses in applied research in liquid vortex, we = have solved the initial design problems with bearing, shaft and seal = cooling when operating at 10,500 rpm. Next is to apply sonics. Another = task is to configure a hollow shaft to allow for laser light and = microwave. The process of building an empirical data base has started. Sometimes back I saved suggestions from Jones, Frank and Fred on = natural resonance frequencies of water and thoughts on microwave and = sonics.. however it is halloween and somehow the files dissappeared. We were talking with NASA'S technology outreach people and suggested = someone should investigate the cavitation collapse of the bubble for = use as a battery. The trick would be to get a nanocarbon with a ceramic = magnet component that would be compressed inside the cavitation bubble = at the the time of collapse.It would be an analogy to placing a bubble = between two sledgehammers and striking them together, Shazaam! a nano = battery. What for ? ...the basic material for a flywheel of course. = Perhaps the solution to ultra-high speed flywheels that can operated = above 750,000 RPM. The theme behind the implosion centripal force = idea.Magnetics cancelling centrifugal forces that tend to explode a = wheel spinning at ultra-high speeds. Hmmm !Flywheels may seem old = fashioned but there are few better ways of storing energy. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_001B_01C5DE6B.29A42F60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Jones wrote..

Is the shape of the cavitation bubble in sonofusion always a torus or = flattened-bubble?

Here is a link,

 http://www.vor-env.com/u= ltrasonic.shtml

The bubble appears to be torus shaped.. but.. there appears to=20 be an interesting vortex in the center.

As our company work progresses in applied research in liquid vortex, = we have=20 solved the initial design problems with bearing, shaft and seal cooling = when=20 operating at 10,500 rpm. Next is to apply sonics.  = Another task=20 is to configure a hollow shaft to allow for laser light and microwave. = The=20 process of building an empirical data base has started.

 Sometimes back I saved suggestions from Jones, Frank and Fred = on=20 natural resonance frequencies of water and thoughts on microwave and = sonics..=20 however it is halloween and somehow the files dissappeared.

We were talking with NASA'S technology outreach people and suggested = someone=20 should investigate the  cavitation collapse of the bubble for = use as a=20 battery. The trick would be to get a nanocarbon with a ceramic magnet = component=20 that would be compressed inside the cavitation bubble at the the time of = collapse.It would be an analogy to placing a bubble between two = sledgehammers=20 and striking them together, Shazaam! a nano battery. What = for ?=20 ...the basic material for a flywheel of course. = Perhaps  the=20 solution to ultra-high speed flywheels that can operated above 750,000 = RPM. The=20 theme behind the implosion centripal force idea.Magnetics cancelling = centrifugal=20 forces that tend to explode a wheel spinning at ultra-high speeds. Hmmm=20 !Flywheels may seem old fashioned but there are few better ways of = storing=20 energy.

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_001B_01C5DE6B.29A42F60-- ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C5DE6B.29A42F60 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001901c5de9d$74123830$fa027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C5DE6B.29A42F60-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 31 23:50:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA17mo2Y000394; Mon, 31 Oct 2005 23:49:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA17mjlQ000359; Mon, 31 Oct 2005 23:48:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 23:48:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20051101074806232.38B081C00084 mwinf3007.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20051101074807.009b8318 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 07:48:07 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Kiril Chukanov Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64225 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 08:09 am 31/10/2005 -0800, you wrote: > Every time I think about ball lightning, I wonder > if it could be related to a larger version of the EVO > of Ken Shoulders. I don't doubt it. > Could there be two different stability regimes for a > massive number of temporarily bound-electrons > (one micron-range and one cm-range)? > > Also there is that recurrent image of the "ball torus" > which everyone thinks at first glance is a sphere but > it really is a torus in which the ID has shrunk to zero, > and the luminosity prohibits seeing the inner features > at the poles. The name for this shape is the "spherical > toroid" and the newer Tokomak designs also approach this > shape. > Good points. 8-) > This particular toroid shape you will recall is also > present in the "bubble" - which collapses in > sonoluminescence. It is really not spherical at all > but toroidal. I don't "recall" cos I didn't know that. Do you have a reference, or better still a URL. Cheers, Frank