From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 1 00:37:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA18aWVG014015; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 00:36:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA18aUkU013982; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 00:36:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 00:36:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20051101083606379.5CB861C000EE mwinf3001.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20051101083607.009b4340 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 08:36:07 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: The Geometry of OU Resent-Message-ID: <2okg1.A.aaD.NkyZDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64226 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:24 am 31/10/2005 -0800, Jones wrote: > Is the shape of the cavitation bubble in > sonofusion always a torus or flattened-bubble? > > Is ball lightning "always" a torus, rather than a real sphere? > > Why are "smoke rings" so stable? > > Not sure. Something to do with the bifurcation that occurs at transition from streamline to turbulent flow I suspect - or the hydraulic jump from high scale KE to pressure (i.e. low scale KE). >Like any good detective, Navajo or not (Joe Leaphorn) - > one should be very suspicious of coincidences. > The Navajos, BTW take the extreme view of nature and > the so-called "butterfly" effect... for them there > is NO coincidence in nature. Or supernature come to that. ;-) Frank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 1 00:57:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA18v2YP019819; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 00:57:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA18v0IO019778; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 00:57:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 00:57:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20051101085634569.8B2181C00086 mwinf3008.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20051101085635.009c5ab0 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 08:56:35 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: The Geometry of OU Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64227 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:24 am 31/10/2005 -0800, Jones wrote: > Is the shape of the cavitation bubble in > sonofusion always a torus or flattened-bubble? > > Is ball lightning "always" a torus, rather than > a real sphere? > > Why are "smoke rings" so stable? > > Not sure. There is a famous image of the > cavitation bubble, somewhere on the web, but > for some reason a google search has turned up > nothing yet. I do not know if the image is > representative of all "active" bubbles or not. Is this the image you were thinking of? http://exploration.grc.nasa.gov/6712/overviews/BDiSL_over.html Frank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 1 01:16:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA19GFOj025876; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 01:16:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA19GEhT025860; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 01:16:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 01:16:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20051101091550809.C59D55C00086 mwinf3113.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20051101091551.00971fa4 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 09:15:51 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: The Geometry of OU Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64228 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:33 pm 31/10/2005 -0600, Richard wrote: >> Jones wrote.. >> Is the shape of the cavitation bubble in sonofusion >> always a torus or flattened-bubble? > Here is a link, > > http://www.vor-env.com/ultrasonic.shtml > > The bubble appears to be torus shaped.. but.. ....but if you read the plausible explanation at where they presumably "borrowed" the picture..... http://exploration.grc.nasa.gov/6712/overviews/BDiSL_over.html .....it's not really a torus but a bubble which has collapsed subsequent to the distortion resulting from impinging upon a surface. Frank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 1 03:30:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA1BTdI5009238; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 03:29:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA1BTa0R009225; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 03:29:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 03:29:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=hRZfTF0NZzS39q53Wd4FtRj2FSCx+OhRwpasrWUZ5SRkeAR4ILKuY+4E+q4sgfK7; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22005112110291830 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Politicians Beware! Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 04:29:01 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9404fb863851e2edb6734da52b95b6b5f19350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.190 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64229 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII EGGs for breakfast? Great for kids too. Fred http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4392090.stm Stomach 'can reveal who is lying' US scientists believe they may be able to develop a more reliable lie-detector test - by listening to liars' stomachs. Conventional polygraph tests, which are 80 to 90% accurate, use changes such as increased heart rates and sweating. But people who are telling the truth can show similar changes merely because they are anxious about being tested and others learn how to "cheat" the tests. A University of Texas study involving 16 people found looking for gut pattern changes was a more reliable test. Dr Pankaj Pasricha and colleagues told an annual meeting of the American College of Gastroenterology how their test, called an electrogastrogram (EGG), could clearly spot when someone was telling a fib. They asked 16 volunteers to simultaneously undergo EGG tests and standard electrocardiogram (ECG) - a test to measure heart rate which makes up part of standard polygraph testing. Like an ECG, an EGG is recorded by attaching painless electrode stickers to the skin. Gut reaction The researchers found that both lying and telling the truth affected the ECG recordings compared to baseline measurements when the volunteers were asked simply to rest. In comparison, the EGG showed obvious changes only when the individual was telling a lie - there was a big decrease in the percentage of normal gastric slow waves. "Further research in real-life situations and using larger numbers is necessary to validate these results," cautioned the authors. However, they said their findings suggested: "The addition of the EGG to standard polygraph methods has clear value in improving the accuracy of current lie detectors." Professor Richard Wiseman, a psychologist at the University of Hertfordshire, said: "It is an interesting idea. "However, like the conventional lie detector, the technique seems to rely on the notion that people become more stressed when they lie. "People who do not feel guilty about lying or have rehearsed the lie many times may not show such anxiety and thus pass the test." Professor Don Grubin, professor of forensic psychiatry at Newcastle University, said: "There's no reason to believe that this would not work. "The stomach is controlled by the same bit of the non-voluntary nervous system that controls breathing and heart rate and sweating. So we would expect to see changes. "But a lot more work is needed to determine whether these changes do provide added value." He said that conventional lie detectors were between 80 and 90% accurate and that, as yet, there was nothing available to beat that. ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
EGGs for breakfast?  Great for kids too.
 
Fred
 
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4392090.stm
 
 
Stomach 'can reveal who is lying'
 
US scientists believe they may be able to develop a more reliable lie-detector test - by listening to liars' stomachs.

Conventional polygraph tests, which are 80 to 90% accurate, use changes such as increased heart rates and sweating.

But people who are telling the truth can show similar changes merely because they are anxious about being tested and others learn how to "cheat" the tests.

A University of Texas study involving 16 people found looking for gut pattern changes was a more reliable test.

Dr Pankaj Pasricha and colleagues told an annual meeting of the American College of Gastroenterology how their test, called an electrogastrogram (EGG), could clearly spot when someone was telling a fib.

They asked 16 volunteers to simultaneously undergo EGG tests and standard electrocardiogram (ECG) - a test to measure heart rate which makes up part of standard polygraph testing.

Like an ECG, an EGG is recorded by attaching painless electrode stickers to the skin.

Gut reaction

The researchers found that both lying and telling the truth affected the ECG recordings compared to baseline measurements when the volunteers were asked simply to rest.

In comparison, the EGG showed obvious changes only when the individual was telling a lie - there was a big decrease in the percentage of normal gastric slow waves.

"Further research in real-life situations and using larger numbers is necessary to validate these results," cautioned the authors.

However, they said their findings suggested: "The addition of the EGG to standard polygraph methods has clear value in improving the accuracy of current lie detectors."

Professor Richard Wiseman, a psychologist at the University of Hertfordshire, said: "It is an interesting idea.

"However, like the conventional lie detector, the technique seems to rely on the notion that people become more stressed when they lie.

"People who do not feel guilty about lying or have rehearsed the lie many times may not show such anxiety and thus pass the test."

Professor Don Grubin, professor of forensic psychiatry at Newcastle University, said: "There's no reason to believe that this would not work.

"The stomach is controlled by the same bit of the non-voluntary nervous system that controls breathing and heart rate and sweating. So we would expect to see changes.

"But a lot more work is needed to determine whether these changes do provide added value."

He said that conventional lie detectors were between 80 and 90% accurate and that, as yet, there was nothing available to beat that.

 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 1 06:59:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA1EwhKV021713; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 06:58:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA1EwfaM021675; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 06:58:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 06:58:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000e01c5def4$b1696cb0$53037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: <2.2.32.20051101091551.00971fa4 pop.freeserve.net> Subject: Re: The Geometry of OU Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 08:58:16 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.8 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64230 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frank, Borrow?? It is called " artistic liscense" < grin> Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Grimer" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 3:15 AM Subject: Re: The Geometry of OU > At 10:33 pm 31/10/2005 -0600, Richard wrote: > >>> Jones wrote.. >>> Is the shape of the cavitation bubble in sonofusion >>> always a torus or flattened-bubble? > > >> Here is a link, >> >> http://www.vor-env.com/ultrasonic.shtml >> >> The bubble appears to be torus shaped.. but.. > > > ....but if you read the plausible explanation at where they > presumably "borrowed" the picture..... > > http://exploration.grc.nasa.gov/6712/overviews/BDiSL_over.html > > .....it's not really a torus but a bubble which has collapsed > subsequent to the distortion resulting from impinging upon a > surface. > > Frank > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 1 07:10:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA1F9UtH026114; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 07:09:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA1F9SdG026107; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 07:09:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 07:09:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <001a01c5def6$30708a10$53037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: <410-22005112110291830 earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Politicians Beware! Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 09:08:59 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0017_01C5DEC3.E55BE100" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.8 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,HTML_30_40, HTML_MESSAGE,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64231 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C5DEC3.E55BE100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Fred, I was scratching my head about this article until I noticed reference to = the University of Texas. That told me everything I needed to know. UT, = the home of the "skybox" where enough money has been spent for additions = to the " sports" stadium to shade the Romans at their glory days. Only = the most important " biggies" get skyboxes at UT-Austin. If they learned = research money was being diverted to research away from " old cabin = still " we could have a political crisis. Richard ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Frederick Sparber=20 To: vortex-l=20 Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 4:29 AM Subject: Re: Politicians Beware! EGGs for breakfast? Great for kids too. Fred http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4392090.stm Stomach 'can reveal who is lying'=20 US scientists believe they may be able to develop a more reliable = lie-detector test - by listening to liars' stomachs.=20 Conventional polygraph tests, which are 80 to 90% accurate, use = changes such as increased heart rates and sweating.=20 But people who are telling the truth can show similar changes merely = because they are anxious about being tested and others learn how to = "cheat" the tests.=20 A University of Texas study involving 16 people found looking for gut = pattern changes was a more reliable test. Dr Pankaj Pasricha and colleagues told an annual meeting of the = American College of Gastroenterology how their test, called an = electrogastrogram (EGG), could clearly spot when someone was telling a = fib.=20 They asked 16 volunteers to simultaneously undergo EGG tests and = standard electrocardiogram (ECG) - a test to measure heart rate which = makes up part of standard polygraph testing.=20 Like an ECG, an EGG is recorded by attaching painless electrode = stickers to the skin.=20 Gut reaction=20 The researchers found that both lying and telling the truth affected = the ECG recordings compared to baseline measurements when the volunteers = were asked simply to rest.=20 In comparison, the EGG showed obvious changes only when the individual = was telling a lie - there was a big decrease in the percentage of normal = gastric slow waves.=20 "Further research in real-life situations and using larger numbers is = necessary to validate these results," cautioned the authors.=20 However, they said their findings suggested: "The addition of the EGG = to standard polygraph methods has clear value in improving the accuracy = of current lie detectors."=20 Professor Richard Wiseman, a psychologist at the University of = Hertfordshire, said: "It is an interesting idea.=20 "However, like the conventional lie detector, the technique seems to = rely on the notion that people become more stressed when they lie.=20 "People who do not feel guilty about lying or have rehearsed the lie = many times may not show such anxiety and thus pass the test."=20 Professor Don Grubin, professor of forensic psychiatry at Newcastle = University, said: "There's no reason to believe that this would not = work.=20 "The stomach is controlled by the same bit of the non-voluntary = nervous system that controls breathing and heart rate and sweating. So = we would expect to see changes.=20 "But a lot more work is needed to determine whether these changes do = provide added value."=20 He said that conventional lie detectors were between 80 and 90% = accurate and that, as yet, there was nothing available to beat that.=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C5DEC3.E55BE100 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Fred,
I was scratching my head about this article = until I=20 noticed reference to the University of Texas. That told me everything I = needed=20 to know. UT, the home of the "skybox" where enough money has been spent = for=20 additions to the " sports" stadium to shade the Romans at their glory = days. Only=20 the most important " biggies" get skyboxes at UT-Austin. If they learned = research money was being diverted to research away from " old cabin = still " we=20 could have a political crisis.
Richard
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Frederick Sparber
Sent: Tuesday, November 01, = 2005 4:29=20 AM
Subject: Re: Politicians = Beware!

EGGs for breakfast?  Great for kids too.
 
Fred
 
http://news.bbc.co= .uk/1/hi/health/4392090.stm
 
 
Stomach 'can reveal who is lying' =
 
US scientists believe they may be able to develop a more reliable = lie-detector test - by listening to liars' stomachs.

Conventional polygraph tests, which are 80 to 90% accurate, use = changes=20 such as increased heart rates and sweating.=20

But people who are telling the truth can show similar changes = merely=20 because they are anxious about being tested and others learn how to = "cheat"=20 the tests.=20

A University of Texas study involving 16 people found looking for = gut=20 pattern changes was a more reliable test.

Dr Pankaj Pasricha and colleagues told an annual meeting of the = American=20 College of Gastroenterology how their test, called an = electrogastrogram (EGG),=20 could clearly spot when someone was telling a fib.=20

They asked 16 volunteers to simultaneously undergo EGG tests and = standard=20 electrocardiogram (ECG) - a test to measure heart rate which makes up = part of=20 standard polygraph testing.=20

Like an ECG, an EGG is recorded by attaching painless electrode = stickers to=20 the skin.=20

Gut reaction=20

The researchers found that both lying and telling the truth = affected the=20 ECG recordings compared to baseline measurements when the volunteers = were=20 asked simply to rest.=20

In comparison, the EGG showed obvious changes only when the = individual was=20 telling a lie - there was a big decrease in the percentage of normal = gastric=20 slow waves.=20

"Further research in real-life situations and using larger numbers = is=20 necessary to validate these results," cautioned the authors.=20

However, they said their findings suggested: "The addition of the = EGG to=20 standard polygraph methods has clear value in improving the accuracy = of=20 current lie detectors."=20

Professor Richard Wiseman, a psychologist at the University of=20 Hertfordshire, said: "It is an interesting idea.=20

"However, like the conventional lie detector, the technique seems = to rely=20 on the notion that people become more stressed when they lie.=20

"People who do not feel guilty about lying or have rehearsed the = lie many=20 times may not show such anxiety and thus pass the test."=20

Professor Don Grubin, professor of forensic psychiatry at Newcastle = University, said: "There's no reason to believe that this would not = work.=20

"The stomach is controlled by the same bit of the non-voluntary = nervous=20 system that controls breathing and heart rate and sweating. So we = would expect=20 to see changes.=20

"But a lot more work is needed to determine whether these changes = do=20 provide added value."=20

He said that conventional lie detectors were between 80 and 90% = accurate=20 and that, as yet, there was nothing available to beat that.

 
 
 

------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C5DEC3.E55BE100-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 1 09:42:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA1HfJgU012930; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 09:41:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA1HfG9n012907; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 09:41:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 09:41:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <4enjt4$1i1gpss mxip20a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.97,275,1125892800"; d="scan'208"; a="1679320988:sNHT666941092" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: OrionWorks Organization: OrionWorks To: CC: Subject: OT: New TV Show in the making: "Zero Point" Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 11:40:40 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <7XgTI.A.iJD.8i6ZDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64232 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vorts, FYI, A TV show is in the making titled: "Zero Point." See: http://zeropoint.tv Note that I said "Zero Point" and not "Zero Point Energy." I think the show is going to focus on mysterious issues pertaining to synchronicity and time travel - as compared to AE. Searching through the web site didn't appear to indicate any obvious interest in energy issues. Never the less, it's a sign of times. It seems to me that more people are become increasingly exposed to concepts pertaining to "zero point (energy)". Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 1 11:47:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA1JlAX9015513; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 11:47:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA1Jl8UZ015467; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 11:47:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 11:47:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=c3WaeBW4dMqYJ01FO3UHAp5NG2rR8872ie+PrmK1cKDRtiVZYauyQ5MjYiQlzjIU; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220051121184633390 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Old Ashtabula Ohio Clippings ca 1900 Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 12:46:33 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9404f8e4359bdf6f840e8019ef328a5d5a9350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.160 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64233 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII ATTENDANCE AT PIONEER PICNIC LARGEST EVER ___ Automobiles Superseding the Horse Among the Farmers -Movie and Carnival Attractions Added Much to List of Entertaining Features. __ In speaking of the Pioneer picnic which was held yesterday at Russell's grove, Pierpont, those who attended from this city, state that never before in the history of the annual affairs, has there been such a large attendance at the grove. This was due, not only to the fine weather but also to the number of new attractions added this year and to the wide popularity gained by the picnic in years previous. In addition to the two "movie" shows which were new innovations this year, several of the shows belonging to the carnival which was supposed to have been in this city this week, were on the grounds. One feature which dispelled the conjecture that automobiles were playthings of city folk, was the fact that farmers for miles around with cars representing almost every make, drove to the picnic with their families. One spot that in years before had been devoted to the hitching of horses, was this year lined with automobiles. The machines, however, have not altogether obiliterated the horse and carriage for there were also thousands of these to be seen. One business man in this city stated that were all the carriages and machines put into a line they would almost reach from here to Pierpont. No high priced gasoline back then. :-) http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/oh/ashtabula/newspaper/farmbook/book1/fmbk1p05.txt http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/oh/ashtabula/newspaper/farmbook/book2/1900.txt Springboro, Pa., twenty miles southeast of here, was almost wiped off the map Saturday night by the most destructive fire the little borough has ever experienced. The entire east side of Main street in the business section was completely destroyed. The fire was of unknown origin and started in the Wiard block. Before it could be stopped it had destroyed that block and those adjoining. Windows on the opposite side of the street were broken by the intense heat and a loss of nearly $100,000 was sustained. The burned structures were partially insured and all will be rebuilt. Fire companies from Albion were rushed to Springboro by a special Bessemer train and assisted the Springboro companies to get the fire under control. Otherwise the entire borough might have been fireswept entailing much greater property loss. The fire was threatening the Sheldon sanitarium on the west side of the street when the Albion fire department arrived and devoted its first energies to keeping the conflagration from seizing the sanitarium. Patients were removed to safe places when the sanitarium was threatened. You have to try changing the part number in the link to get all of them. Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

ATTENDANCE AT PIONEER PICNIC
LARGEST EVER
___
Automobiles Superseding the Horse Among the Farmers -Movie and Carnival
Attractions Added Much to List of Entertaining Features.
__
In speaking of the Pioneer picnic which was held yesterday at Russell's
grove, Pierpont, those who attended from this city, state that never before in
the history of the annual affairs, has there been such a large attendance at the
grove.  This was due, not only to the fine weather but also to the number of new
attractions added this year and to the wide popularity gained by the picnic in
years previous.
In addition to the two "movie" shows which were new innovations this year,
several of the shows belonging to the carnival which was supposed to have been
in this city this week, were on the grounds.
One feature which dispelled the conjecture that automobiles were
playthings of city folk, was the fact that farmers for miles around with cars
representing almost every make, drove to the picnic with their families.  One
spot that in years before had been devoted to the hitching of horses, was this
year lined with automobiles.  The machines, however, have not altogether
obiliterated the horse and carriage for there were also thousands of these to be
seen.  One business man in this city stated that were all the carriages and
machines put into a line they would almost reach from here to Pierpont.
 
No high priced gasoline back then.  :-)
 
 
 
 
Springboro, Pa., twenty miles southeast of here, was almost wiped off the
map Saturday night by the most destructive fire the little borough has ever
experienced.
The entire east side of Main street in the business section was completely
destroyed.
The fire was of unknown origin and started in the Wiard block.  Before it
could be stopped it had destroyed that block and those adjoining.  Windows on
the opposite side of the street were broken by the intense heat and a loss of
nearly $100,000 was sustained.  The burned structures were partially insured and
all will be rebuilt.  Fire companies from Albion were rushed to Springboro by a
special Bessemer train and assisted the Springboro companies to get the fire
under control.  Otherwise the entire borough might have been fireswept entailing
much greater property loss.
The fire was threatening the Sheldon sanitarium on the west side of the
street when the Albion fire department arrived and devoted its first energies to
keeping the conflagration from seizing the sanitarium.
Patients were removed to safe places when the sanitarium was threatened.
You have to try changing the part number in the link to get all of them.
 
Fred
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 1 13:48:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA1Lldn0016621; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 13:47:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA1LlX7K016575; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 13:47:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 13:47:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=fW5mFBYB1Y1m9myg15oYSCWc+TBZYS1EL00Kveot8SzUdSQJsSrnKINgSz7yfsD6; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220051121204633250 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: O.T. Where's the Poop? Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 14:46:33 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940236e659c4e96a7b7599bc5f381877d82350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.159.169 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64234 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII How come in all of the years from Hop along Cassidy, Gene Autry, Roy Rogers movies and TV , Gunsmoke, and Bonanza, as well as the wagon trains headed west , and the cattle drives from Old San Antonio to Abilene I've never seen a drop of horse pucky or cow dung? Yet, the animals in the local parade leave enough biomass on the pavement to power my lawn mower for decades. Did I miss something? IOW. Hollywood don't show Poop, but they don't hold back on obscenity. Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

How come in all of the years from Hop along Cassidy, Gene Autry, Roy Rogers movies
and TV , Gunsmoke, and Bonanza, as well as the wagon trains headed west , and the cattle drives from Old
San Antonio to Abilene I've never seen a drop of horse pucky or cow dung?
 
Yet, the animals in the local parade leave enough biomass on the pavement to power
my lawn mower for decades.
 
Did I miss something?
 
IOW. Hollywood don't show Poop, but they don't hold back on obscenity.
 
Fred
 
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 1 15:18:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA1NHsTX001585; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 15:18:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA1NHpwd001557; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 15:17:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 15:17:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001701c5df3a$6af0f280$e3027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: O.T.: Old Ashtabula Ohio Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 17:17:22 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0013_01C5DF08.1F5A6F40" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.4 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,HTML_90_100,HTML_MESSAGE,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64235 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C5DF08.1F5A6F40 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0014_01C5DF08.1F5BF5E0" ------=_NextPart_001_0014_01C5DF08.1F5BF5E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankFred, Ok ,Tell us about Ashtabula.. did you come from there? Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0014_01C5DF08.1F5BF5E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Fred,
 
Ok ,Tell us about Ashtabula.. did you come from there?
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0014_01C5DF08.1F5BF5E0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C5DF08.1F5A6F40 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001201c5df3a$69ea30e0$e3027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C5DF08.1F5A6F40-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 1 15:46:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA1NjQ7L013155; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 15:45:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA1NjPPA013129; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 15:45:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 15:45:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=FfhYokRTE2+jevQLwNOuG4gpl5j1RHJYRTVjQtJWFptpvBu7Fhb/pB88rSTdFSzY; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <411-220051121224445780 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: O.T.: Old Ashtabula Ohio Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 16:44:45 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94069ca67e7b38c8a157a14315b9fc8e033350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.98 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64236 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII About 30 miles to the east in Pennsylvania, Richard. But, we used to listen to the "Ashtabula Hillbillies" on the Silvertone battery-powered radio. The "A" battery did real good until I put a stove poker across the terminals and watched it turn red hot. My bottom was sore for a few days,too. A lot of the Ashtabula news coverage included that area. U.S. Route 6 the "Grand Army of the Republic Highway (Cape Cod to the West Coast) went into Ohio near by. OTOH the snowplows didn't get off it until about a week after an old fashion "Blizzard" hit. :-) A big thrill to see the army trucks on it , and the Goodyear Blimps from Akron go over during WW II. Aren't you glad you asked? :-) Fred ----- Original Message ----- From: RC Macaulay To: vortex-l eskimo.com Sent: 11/1/05 5:18:08 PM Subject: Re: O.T.: Old Ashtabula Ohio Fred, Ok ,Tell us about Ashtabula.. did you come from there? Richard ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Blank
About 30 miles to the east in Pennsylvania, Richard.
 
But, we used to listen to the "Ashtabula Hillbillies" on the Silvertone battery-powered radio.
 
The "A" battery did real good until I put a stove poker across the terminals and watched it turn
red hot.  My bottom was sore for a few days,too.
 
A lot of the Ashtabula news coverage included that area. U.S. Route 6 the "Grand Army of the Republic Highway
(Cape Cod to the West Coast) went into Ohio near by.  OTOH the snowplows didn't get off it until about a week after
an old fashion "Blizzard" hit.  :-)
 
A big thrill to see the army trucks on it , and the Goodyear Blimps from Akron go over during WW II.
 
Aren't you glad you asked?   :-)
 
Fred
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 11/1/05 5:18:08 PM
Subject: Re: O.T.: Old Ashtabula Ohio

Fred,
 
Ok ,Tell us about Ashtabula.. did you come from there?
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Description: Blank Bkgrd.gif Content-Id: <410-2200511212244411601 13071999> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 1 16:50:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA20nCvW014852; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 16:49:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA20n91d014826; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 16:49:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 16:49:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=X7YU4LeULZ1JL9M2wfvoHWgdtO675AOK17yauV8xxVpfeXakD/LcLWT/Feg5rOjQ; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220051121234833310 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: O.T. Old Ashtabula Ohio Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 17:48:33 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940e97f2dff29fa1f633f7d4f75b935ac66350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.66 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64237 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Speaking of WW II Richard. An old friend, the late John "Lem" Wiegreffe retired (in New Mexico) from Westinghouse as patent counsel, was a military intelligence officer during the war. Even in his late eighties he was a reserve officer. He talked some about Radar in Alaska/Aleutians (resonant cavity) and the balloons carrying explosives launched from Japan. Us kids were warned about them in 1943. Lem fought (and lost) the Laser patent fight between Westinghouse and Hughes. According to him, Maiman and Weider "were discussing the laser while playing tennis and the race was on". http://www.spie.org/web/oer/august/aug00/maiman.html "Maiman's rigorous investigation paid off when, on 16 May 1960, he fired up his equipment and the laser made the historic leap from theory to reality. After nine months of effort, working with a very small budget and under the scorn of nearly the entire science community, he had beaten Lincoln Labs, IBM, Westinghouse, Siemens, RCA Labs, GE, Bell Labs, TRG, and every other large and small player in the race to build the world's first laser. " Lem was with us when the "Cold Fusion" news arrived. He had high hopes for it. A walk and a game of golf every morning kept him active. Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Speaking of  WW II Richard.
 
An old friend, the late John  "Lem" Wiegreffe retired (in New Mexico) from Westinghouse as patent counsel, was a military intelligence officer during the war.  Even in his late eighties he was a reserve officer.
 
He talked some about Radar in Alaska/Aleutians (resonant cavity) and the balloons carrying explosives launched from Japan.
 
Us kids  were warned about them in 1943.
 
Lem fought (and lost) the Laser patent fight between Westinghouse and Hughes.
 
According to him, Maiman and Weider "were discussing the laser while playing tennis and the race was on".
 
 
"Maiman's rigorous investigation paid off when, on 16 May 1960, he fired up his equipment and the laser made the historic leap from theory to reality. After nine months of effort, working with a very small budget and under the scorn of nearly the entire science community, he had beaten Lincoln Labs, IBM, Westinghouse, Siemens, RCA Labs, GE, Bell Labs, TRG, and every other large and small player in the race to build the world's first laser. "
 
Lem was with us when the "Cold Fusion" news arrived. He had high hopes for it.
 
A walk and a game of golf every morning kept him active.
 
Fred

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 1 18:04:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA223iYi016429; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 18:03:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA223faM016404; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 18:03:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 18:03:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001201c5df51$92ed7df0$e3027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: O.T.: Old Ashtabula Ohio Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 20:03:07 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000E_01C5DF1F.4733BB40"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.5 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,HTML_50_60,HTML_MESSAGE,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64238 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C5DF1F.4733BB40 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000F_01C5DF1F.4736C880" ------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C5DF1F.4736C880 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankFred, Thanks for the link on Maiman. An authenic scientist. He did it the hard = way but the right way. Speaking of WW2. A group of us men have coffee Saturady in the tiny = local town. I remain amazed at the cross section of experiences = represented by these individual retirees. Three flew in Vietnam, later = 747's for Pan Am and Delta forced to retire at age 60. The real kicker = is our 85 year old, still flying his own plane.. He was in the Marines = at Guadalcanal first fighters arriving a part of Joe Foss legendary = wing.He is still sharp and nimble minded. I asked what person stood out in their mind as the greatest single man = in the 20th century,, surprise answer Gen. James H. Dolittle.. an authenic American, cientist, medal of = honor, soldier, statesman, teacher, man of integrity. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C5DF1F.4736C880 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Fred,
Thanks for the link on Maiman. An authenic scientist. He did it the = hard=20 way but the right way.
 
Speaking of WW2. A group of us men have coffee Saturady in the tiny = local=20 town. I remain amazed at the cross section of experiences represented by = these=20 individual retirees. Three flew in Vietnam, later 747's for Pan Am and = Delta=20 forced to retire at age 60. The real kicker is our 85 year old, still = flying his=20 own plane.. He was in the Marines at Guadalcanal first fighters arriving = a part=20 of Joe Foss legendary wing.He is still sharp and nimble minded.
 
I asked what person stood out in their mind as the greatest single = man in=20 the 20th century,, surprise answer
 
Gen. James H. Dolittle.. an authenic=20 American,       cientist, medal of honor, = soldier,=20 statesman, teacher, man of integrity.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C5DF1F.4736C880-- ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C5DF1F.4733BB40 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000d01c5df51$91a98c40$e3027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C5DF1F.4733BB40-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 1 20:45:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA24jIIw032357; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 20:45:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA24jGEO032335; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 20:45:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 20:45:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [209.6.216.201] X-Originating-Email: [jeffdriscoll hotmail.com] X-Sender: jeffdriscoll hotmail.com From: "Jeff Driscoll" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Mizuno experiment - neutron bursts with deuterium, 0.8 Tesla field, 77 K Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 23:44:52 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Nov 2005 04:44:53.0616 (UTC) FILETIME=[2AB70F00:01C5DF68] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64239 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I'd like to reproduce Tadahiko Mizuno's experiment where he exposed deuterium gas to a 0.8 Tesla magnetic field at liquid nitrogen temperatures and got bursts of neutrons. No electrolysis or glow discharges were involved – just 3 things, 0.8 Tesla field, 77 K (liquid nitrogen), and deuterium gas. The link to his paper is here: http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MizunoTneutronemi.pdf I'm trying to get access to a superconducting magnetic system with a strength equal to or greater than 1 Tesla. I can get the neutron counters and the deuterium gas (and the hydrogen gas for the null experiment). Typically these superconducting magnet systems use a NbTi (Niobium Titanium) magnet in a liquid helium container and can generate a field in the 4 - 10 Tesla range with some as high as 17 Tesla. The cost of a low priced system is 30 k$ though the cheapest complete system I've seen is 17 k$. I don’t have that kind of money so I’m hoping someone will let me use their system wherever it is located – I’d work with them to set up the experiment. The following link describes a superconducting magnet system: http://www.janis.com/p-sms3.html Mizuno used liquid nitrogen temperatures (77 K) and using liquid helium (4 K) is a departure from his experiment. I think the liquid helium NbTi superconducting magnet systems are more common but I don’t know that for sure. I live in Somerville Massachusetts so a magnet nearby would be best - but I could travel. My email is jeffdriscoll hotmail.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 27 10:54:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9RHrh1C002551; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 10:53:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id j9RHrfKl002517; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 10:53:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 10:53:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: ThomasClark123 aol.com Message-ID: Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 13:52:54 EDT Subject: Re: Electrostatic Hover Cars To: vortex-l eskimo.com, A-albionic_Subscription@yahoogroups.com CC: ThomasClark123 aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1130435574" X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5039 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: <277q-.A.Qn.kQRYDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64151 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friendsD Status: RO X-Status: -------------------------------1130435574 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/21/2005 11:58:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ThomasClark123 aol.com writes: In a message dated 10/21/2005 10:04:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time, orionworks charter.net writes: Since we are talking about the writings of weighty authors might I suggest another individual, Carl Sagan, specifically his book "Demon-Haunted World" - Chapter 10 titled: "The Dragon in my Garage." Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com The reference to Carl Sagan reminded me that a gyroscope was used in the Contact movie to cause a ship to teleport into the 4th dimension. This then caused me to reverse engineer Sagan's gyroscope teleportation force field engine. If we assume that the high frequency rotating gyroscopes placed around the ship creates complex super vortex patterns in all 3 directions, then we can postulate that the high frequency rotating gyroscopes jam out normal gravity and 3d space energies in all directions to cause the ship to be placed into the 4th dimension of pure energy where time and space are very different. Sagan's gyroscopic force field engine can also be used to cause a ship to levitate by canceling out gravity waves and energies along the gravity plane. Perhaps to get a ship to levitate rather than teleport in the 4th dimension some of the HF gyroscopic force field engines may be slowed down or only rotated along the gravity planes to just jam out gravity and not 3d space energies. The link given on gyroscopic math http://www.gyroscopes.org/movies.asp does not include vortex and scalar wave gyroscopic math which would describe the complex vortex and countervortex patterns created in a gyroscope that may be used to jam out gravity and 3d space to allow a ship to not only levitate but also teleport into the 4th dimension. Konstantine Meyl in his book Scalar Waves gives the vortex and scalar wave equations which can be added to standard gyroscopic math equations to describe the vortex and scalar wave fields and their consequences with high frequency rotating gyroscopes encircling or placed in a ship. It should be noted that a series of orthogonal energies beam placed around a ship which rotates around the ship in a high frequency fashion could also simulate a real gyroscope around the ship in an energy force field form so that real metal gyroscopes may be replaced with holographic energy beam gyroscopes. Many antigravity space ships also use gyroscopes to navigate the space ships, since once a ship is in an antigravity state, it also loses its magnetic poles and a gyroscope can be set to due north in the ship before take off so that the gyroscope can be used to navigate the ship once normal magnetic fields have been jammed by the antigravity force fields. Baron Von Volsung, http://www.rhfweb.com/baron, Email: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html President Thomas D. Clark, Email: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html, Personal Web Page: http://www.rhfweb.com/personal New Age Production's Inc., http://www.rhfweb.com/newage Star Haven Community Services, at http://www.rhfweb.com/sh Radiation Health Foundation Trust at http://www.rhfweb.com/ Making a difference one person at a time Get informed. Inform others. -------------------------------1130435574 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In a message dated 10/21/2005 11:58:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Thomas= Clark123 aol.com writes:
In a message dated 10/21/2005 10:04:04 AM E= astern Daylight Time, orionworks charter.net writes:
Since we are talking about the writin= gs of weighty authors might I suggest another individual, Carl Sagan, specif= ically his book "Demon-Haunted World" - Chapter 10 titled: "The Dragon in my= Garage."

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
The reference to Carl Sagan reminded me that a gyroscope was used in th= e Contact movie to cause a ship to teleport into the 4th dimension.  Th= is then caused me to reverse engineer Sagan's gyroscope teleportation force=20= field engine.  If we assume that the high frequency rotating gyroscopes= placed around the ship creates complex super vortex patterns in all 3 direc= tions, then we can postulate that the high frequency rotating gyroscopes jam= out normal gravity and 3d space energies in all directions to cause the shi= p to be placed into the 4th dimension of pure energy where time and space ar= e very different.  Sagan's gyroscopic force field engine can also be us= ed to cause a ship to levitate by canceling out gravity waves and energies a= long the gravity plane.  Perhaps to get a ship to levitate rather than=20= teleport in the 4th dimension some of the HF gyroscopic force field engines=20= may be slowed down or only rotated along the gravity planes to just jam out=20= gravity and not 3d space energies.
 
The link given on gyroscopic math http://ww= w.gyroscopes.org/movies.asp does not include vortex and scalar wave= gyroscopic math which would describe the complex vortex and countervortex p= atterns created in a gyroscope that may be used to jam out gravity and 3d sp= ace to allow a ship to not only levitate but also teleport into the 4th dime= nsion.  Konstantine Meyl in his book Scalar Waves gives the vortex and=20= scalar wave equations which can be added to standard gyroscopic math equatio= ns to describe the vortex and scalar wave fields and their consequences with= high frequency rotating gyroscopes encircling or placed in a ship.
 
It should be noted that a series of orthogonal energies beam place= d around a ship which rotates around the ship in a high frequency fashion co= uld also simulate a real gyroscope around the ship in an energy force field=20= form so that real metal gyroscopes may be replaced with holographic energy b= eam gyroscopes.   Many antigravity space ships also use gyroscopes= to navigate the space ships, since once a ship is in an antigravity state,=20= it also loses its magnetic poles and a gyroscope can be set to due north in=20= the ship before take off so that the gyroscope can be used to navigate the s= hip once normal magnetic fields have been jammed by the antigravity force fi= elds.
 
Baron Von Volsung, http://www.rhfweb.com/baron, Email: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html
President Thomas D. Clark,= Email: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html,
Pers= onal Web Page: http://www.rhfweb.com/personal
New Age Productio= n's Inc., http://www.rhfweb.com/newage
Star Haven Community Service= s, at = http://www.rhfweb.com/sh
Radiation Health Foundation Trust at http://www.rhfweb= .com/

Making a difference one person at a time
Get informed= . Inform others.
-------------------------------1130435574-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 2 04:44:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA2Chd8h009408; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 04:43:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA2Cha68009385; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 04:43:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 04:43:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=q57YrLf/cvN0/YYEBK2T+hBmuqfnDjpDboliEAi4DRxQwOruQX0aISjhdLIvUj1p; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220051132114234270 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re; deriving Power from Atmospheric PD Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 05:42:34 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940c2beda43f8a27b0259c018c4c5b5fe20350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.24 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64240 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII I dunno Jed, But I think a sloping tunnel dug from Los Angeles to Pasadena bypassing JPL would alleviate the smog problem (a similar vent with fans was proposed when I lived there in 1954 before they did away with back-yard incinerators) and rival the Australian 200 Megawatt 3800 Ft. "Solar Tower" in the works. I'm not all that familiar with the topography in that area anymore, but ? Fred http://www.enviromission.com.au/project/technology.htm Downtown Los Angeles, 330 Ft. 34° 03' 08"N, 118° 14' 37"W http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?z=11&n=3768645.00007732&e=385214.999999326&datum=nad83&u=6 Pasadena, by Bear Canyon 3600 Ft. 34° 14' 42"N, 118° 09' 10"W: http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?z=11&n=3790282&e=395170&s=50&size=m&u=6&datum=nad83&layer=DRG25 ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

I dunno Jed, But I think a sloping tunnel dug from Los Angeles to Pasadena
bypassing JPL would alleviate the smog problem (a similar vent with fans
was proposed when I lived there in 1954 before they did away with back-yard incinerators)
and rival the  Australian 200 Megawatt 3800 Ft. "Solar Tower" in the works.
 
I'm not all that familiar with the topography in that area anymore, but ?
 
Fred
 
 
 
Downtown Los Angeles, 330 Ft. 34° 03' 08"N, 118° 14' 37"W
 
 
Pasadena, by Bear Canyon 3600 Ft. 34° 14' 42"N, 118° 09' 10"W:
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 2 05:41:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA2DeeQT019107; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 05:40:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA2Dec4N019085; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 05:40:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 05:40:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <000a01c5dfb2$a9ff70f0$0100007f xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: O.T.: Sensory preception Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 07:37:24 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01C5DF80.44CD4B80"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.5 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64241 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C5DF80.44CD4B80 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0007_01C5DF80.44CEF930" ------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C5DF80.44CEF930 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankCertain animal exhibit special characteristics that assist them in = survival. Wolf.. Arctic wolves hunt in packs. They have some sort of sensory = communication between the other wolves in the pack as demonstrated by = their uncanny ability to both herd and ambush prey over miles and across = hills where the wolves lack direct lines of sight and sound with their = scattered pack. The wolf packs have been filmed regrouping whenever the = prey elude the ambush, Cape Buffalo.. Perhaps one of the most fearsome beast lurking in tall grass country. = The buffalo seem to possess sensory ability they are being stalked. = Hunters report that while on a hunt for the Cape buffalo, they must be = careful because they wind up being stalked. Evidence seems to be the = buffalo tracks. When returning to base camp, the hunters often notice = the buffalo tracks over the hunter's tracks. The buffalo has circled = around and has been stalking the hunter stalker. Wolverine.. This oversize and extremely dangerous outlaw member of the Badger family = seems to possess all the traits of the Cape buffalo plus a savagery that = is almost without parallel in the animal world. Couple these traits with = the musk and the combination approaches what congress has to offer. As we arrive at the next train depot of the wonderful trip along the = web, the freedom of the internet is rapidly being lost. The control is = being " negociated" by other nations. Of concern is the actions of = homeland security under the new laws and the guise of fighting = terrorism. Anyone aware that your e-mail appears to be " slowing down" = and certain forwards are not received. It is easy to run a test to = confirm. Just combine science with humor. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C5DF80.44CEF930 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Certain animal exhibit special characteristics that assist them in=20 survival.
 
Wolf..
 Arctic wolves hunt in packs. They have some sort of sensory=20 communication between the other wolves in the pack as=20 demonstrated by their uncanny ability to both herd and ambush prey over = miles=20 and across hills where the wolves lack direct lines of sight and sound = with=20 their scattered pack. The wolf packs have been filmed regrouping = whenever the=20 prey elude the ambush,
 
Cape Buffalo..
Perhaps one of the most fearsome beast lurking in tall grass = country. The=20 buffalo seem to possess sensory ability they are being stalked. Hunters = report=20 that while on a hunt for the Cape buffalo, they must be careful because = they=20 wind up being stalked. Evidence seems to be the buffalo tracks. When = returning=20 to base camp, the hunters often notice the buffalo tracks over the = hunter's=20 tracks. The buffalo has circled around and has been stalking the hunter=20 stalker.
 
Wolverine..
This oversize and extremely dangerous outlaw member of the = Badger=20 family seems to possess all the traits of the Cape buffalo plus a = savagery that=20 is almost without parallel in the animal world. Couple these traits with = the=20 musk and the combination approaches what congress has to offer.
 
As we arrive at the next train depot of the wonderful trip along = the web,=20 the freedom of the internet is rapidly being lost. The control is being = "=20 negociated" by other nations. Of concern is the actions of homeland = security=20 under the new laws and the guise of fighting terrorism. Anyone aware = that your=20 e-mail appears to be " slowing down" and certain forwards are not = received. It=20 is easy to run a test to confirm. Just combine science with humor.
 
Richard
 

 

------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C5DF80.44CEF930-- ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C5DF80.44CD4B80 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000501c5dfb2$8f3d0200$0100007f xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C5DF80.44CD4B80-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 2 06:51:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA2Ep7s4022765; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 06:51:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA2Ep6U9022746; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 06:51:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 06:51:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=PcP6cqA6yQbMXpbebFER4LH72+iIFysJVjFUApvkD4kzitA68GmbzqwYesfL2oV9; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22005113213501980 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re; deriving Power from Atmospheric PD Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 07:50:01 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940ab8c5390c297686508c95d0c4d8b97fc350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.120.193 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64242 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII While Richard Macaulay is pondering the fact that the inner ear's electrical sensitivity rivals the 10^-21 watts/cm^2 of the most sensitive radio telescopes and "telepathic" communication between humans or animals is uncanny. :-) The delta T between a metropolitan heat source solar, auto exhaust, paving, buildings etc. through a thermally insulated tunnel should result in a power-generating "Chimney Effect" if the tunnel is vented at a higher elevation at a lower temperature. Fred http://www.pulseplanet.com/archive/Sep01/2484.html "Dale Quattrochi is a senior scientist with the NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center. He tells us that the heat island effect can act like a pump that drives a city's weather." ""What we're actually finding is that because the city is hotter, that is, the surface of the city is hotter than non urbanized areas, because of the surfaces in the city that actually absorb sunlight throughout the day - what happens is there is a chimney effect that is set up over the urban area itself. And this chimney effect pumps up hot air into the lower atmosphere, and what happens is it essentially sets up a low pressure system over the city. And this low pressure system sucks in, or brings in cooler air from the outside. And cooler air is denser than warmer air, which means that it falls down into this chimney. As it falls down into the chimney effect, it gets heated up - of course hot air rises. And as hot air rises, it condenses, it forms clouds and it rains. And it rains over the city or down wind of the city, as we've found."" ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 11/2/05 6:43:54 AM Subject: Re; deriving Power from Atmospheric PD I dunno Jed, But I think a sloping tunnel dug from Los Angeles to Pasadena bypassing JPL would alleviate the smog problem (a similar vent with fans was proposed when I lived there in 1954 before they did away with back-yard incinerators) and rival the Australian 200 Megawatt 3800 Ft. "Solar Tower" in the works. I'm not all that familiar with the topography in that area anymore, but ? Fred http://www.enviromission.com.au/project/technology.htm Downtown Los Angeles, 330 Ft. 34° 03' 08"N, 118° 14' 37"W http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?z=11&n=3768645.00007732&e=385214.999999326&datum=nad83&u=6 Pasadena, by Bear Canyon 3600 Ft. 34° 14' 42"N, 118° 09' 10"W: http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?z=11&n=3790282&e=395170&s=50&size=m&u=6&datum=nad83&layer=DRG25 ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

While Richard Macaulay is pondering the fact that the inner ear's electrical

sensitivity rivals the 10^-21 watts/cm^2 of the most sensitive radio telescopes

and "telepathic" communication between humans or animals is uncanny. :-)

The delta T between a metropolitan heat source solar, auto exhaust, paving, buildings etc.

through a thermally insulated tunnel should result in a power-generating "Chimney Effect" 

if the tunnel is vented at a higher elevation at a lower temperature.

Fred

http://www.pulseplanet.com/archive/Sep01/2484.html

"Dale Quattrochi is a senior scientist with the NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center. He tells us that the heat island effect can act like a pump that drives a city's weather."

""What we're actually finding is that because the city is hotter, that is, the surface of the city is hotter than non urbanized areas, because of the surfaces in the city that actually absorb sunlight throughout the day - what happens is there is a chimney effect that is set up over the urban area itself. And this chimney effect pumps up hot air into the lower atmosphere, and what happens is it essentially sets up a low pressure system over the city. And this low pressure system sucks in, or brings in cooler air from the outside. And cooler air is denser than warmer air, which means that it falls down into this chimney. As it falls down into the chimney effect, it gets heated up - of course hot air rises. And as hot air rises, it condenses, it forms clouds and it rains. And it rains over the city or down wind of the city, as we've found.""

----- Original Message -----
Sent: 11/2/05 6:43:54 AM
Subject: Re; deriving Power from Atmospheric PD

I dunno Jed, But I think a sloping tunnel dug from Los Angeles to Pasadena
bypassing JPL would alleviate the smog problem (a similar vent with fans
was proposed when I lived there in 1954 before they did away with back-yard incinerators)
and rival the  Australian 200 Megawatt 3800 Ft. "Solar Tower" in the works.
 
I'm not all that familiar with the topography in that area anymore, but ?
 
Fred
 
 
 
Downtown Los Angeles, 330 Ft. 34° 03' 08"N, 118° 14' 37"W
 
 
Pasadena, by Bear Canyon 3600 Ft. 34° 14' 42"N, 118° 09' 10"W:
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 2 07:30:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA2FUGmF006637; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 07:30:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA2FUFIx006624; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 07:30:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 07:30:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=i3kNp1cx2i70hkYYH8CA6Gc93LtrQy5iqt//z6sfAtcqQ+hsnCX5YqJGwlVr/++N; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220051132142933340 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re; deriving Power from Atmospheric PD Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 08:29:33 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940335429bdf24903cf59ca76aa7e80d98a350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.229 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64243 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII I'm in the 5454 ft lowlands on the west side of Albuquerque past the Rio Grande. Flying out of the airport is a bit bumpy from the thermals coming off the city. Hard Rock Miners (nor minors) might want join in on a Chimney Effect Power-Plant venture? Years ago Gold was mined extensively on the east side of the mountains. A couple of years ago the grand kids and their dad hiked the trail (La Luz) to the crest,(about five hours) figuring they would ride theTram down, but they had their dog with them (no dogs allowed) thus couldn't ride it. It was dark when they got back down. The dog was refreshed, they were beat. Fred Sandia Crest (Albuquerque NM 10678 Ft.) 35° 12' 32"N, 106° 26' 52"W http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?z=13&n=3897173.00007603&e=368217.999998015&datum=nad83&u=6 Northeast Albuquerque Suburbs Below the Crest 6000 Ft) 35° 11' 00"N, 106° 29' 25"W http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?z=13&n=3894403&e=364310&s=50&size=s&u=6&datum=nad83&layer=DRG25 ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

I'm in the 5454 ft lowlands on the west side of Albuquerque past  the Rio Grande.
 
Flying out of the airport is a bit bumpy from the thermals coming off the city.
 
Hard Rock Miners (nor minors) might want join in on a Chimney Effect Power-Plant  venture?
 
Years ago Gold was mined extensively on the east side of the mountains.
 
A couple of years ago the grand kids and their dad hiked the trail (La Luz)
to the crest,(about five hours) figuring they would ride theTram down, but they had their
dog with them (no dogs allowed) thus couldn't ride it. It was dark when they got back down.
 
The dog was refreshed, they were beat.
 
Fred
 
Sandia Crest (Albuquerque NM 10678 Ft.) 35° 12' 32"N, 106° 26' 52"W
 
 
Northeast Albuquerque Suburbs Below the Crest 6000 Ft) 35° 11' 00"N, 106° 29' 25"W
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 2 10:52:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA2IpgPp013971; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 10:51:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA2IpZEo013912; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 10:51:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 10:51:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=A53O2K+re+5lQ/12QBm+fujXsCi0IVsKqy3OlnbzxmsPIKNctwO2GhBnfOsm8ziC; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220051132175025860 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: AMAZING LIGHT Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 11:50:25 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940aa163138cc29336005fec689cc811419350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.129 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64244 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII A great article on the evolution of the laser and related science and the people that made it happen. This lady can write about science. AMAZING LIGHT by Joan Lisa Bromberg http://polaris.umuc.edu/~fbetz/references/Bromberg.html "Before the Second World War, quantum physics had few technological payoffs. The small group of imaginative scientists who had created the field were driven, like many artists or writers, by aesthetic considerations and the pursuit of truth. During and after the war, however, one after another of the phenomena of quantum physics became the basis for technological innovation -- transistors, semi-conductors, and nuclear energy, to name but a few. half a century later their combined effect has revolutionized everything from the most esoteric areas of science to the ordinary details of everyday life" Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

A great article on the evolution of the laser and related science and the people that
made it happen.
 
This lady can write about science.
 
AMAZING LIGHT by Joan Lisa Bromberg
 
 
"Before the Second World War, quantum physics had few technological payoffs. The small group of imaginative scientists who had created the field were driven, like many artists or writers, by aesthetic considerations and the pursuit of truth. During and after the war, however, one after another of the phenomena of quantum physics became the basis for technological innovation -- transistors, semi-conductors, and nuclear energy, to name but a few. half a century later their combined effect has revolutionized everything from the most esoteric areas of science to the ordinary details of everyday life"
 
Fred
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 2 10:59:02 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA2IwQdW016848; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 10:58:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA2IwPcM016827; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 10:58:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 10:58:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2005 12:00:22 -0700 From: Ron Wormus To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: New Battery Story Message-ID: <18200609.1130932822 localhost> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.2.1 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="==========18223636==========" Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64245 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --==========18223636========== Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline http://www.economist.com/science/tq/displayStory.cfm?story_ id=4368196 --==========18223636========== Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Arialhttp://www.econom= ist.com/science/tq/displayStory.cfm?story_id=3D4368196 --==========18223636==========-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 2 13:29:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA2LSbOu029406; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 13:28:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA2LSWoT029349; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 13:28:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 13:28:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: "Rick Monteverde" To: Subject: RE: New Battery Story - Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 11:27:53 -1000 Message-ID: <004f01c5dff4$4d88c370$d901a8c0 dtqf101> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0050_01C5DFA0.7BDCB370" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 In-Reply-To: <18200609.1130932822 localhost> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - server26.fastbighost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - highsurf.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64246 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0050_01C5DFA0.7BDCB370 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You have to join 'em to read 'em, then you get spammed. Executive summary? Thanks, R. -----Original Message----- From: Ron Wormus [mailto:protech frii.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2005 9:00 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: New Battery Story http://www.economist.com/science/tq/displayStory.cfm?story_id=4368196 ------=_NextPart_000_0050_01C5DFA0.7BDCB370 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
You=20 have to join 'em to read 'em, then you get spammed.
 
Executive summary?
 
Thanks,
 
R.
-----Original Message-----
From: Ron = Wormus=20 [mailto:protech frii.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 02, = 2005 9:00=20 AM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: New Battery=20 = Story

http://www.economist.com/science/tq/displayStor= y.cfm?story_id=3D4368196
------=_NextPart_000_0050_01C5DFA0.7BDCB370-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 2 13:43:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA2LgaxF002179; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 13:42:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA2LgZI5002170; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 13:42:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 13:42:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=UJjWbR4qs6KuVRSamikZ4JFx8upcE+tRv1/GGfjlFk3ywWeE46Y16dsoOVZP24/pqD0+lYzjYVZIcOX5veK+zghK5RVYD2HFDcAmC3uYVBb6xS24nU8x/Eqyz1XqNl83F4pehhgwkICFpJYOr68Il8hZCsdy5cD3+FtFfarzL9U= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 14:42:19 -0700 From: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: New Battery Story - In-Reply-To: <004f01c5dff4$4d88c370$d901a8c0 dtqf101> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_4255_5822252.1130967739353" References: <18200609.1130932822 localhost> <004f01c5dff4$4d88c370$d901a8c0 dtqf101> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64247 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_4255_5822252.1130967739353 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline try bugmenot.com On 11/2/05, Rick Monteverde wrote: > > You have to join 'em to read 'em, then you get spammed. > Executive summary? > Thanks, > R. > > -----Original Message----- > *From:* Ron Wormus [mailto:protech frii.com] > *Sent:* Wednesday, November 02, 2005 9:00 AM > *To:* vortex-l eskimo.com > *Subject:* New Battery Story > > http://www.economist.com/science/tq/displayStory.cfm?story_id=3D4368196 > > -- "Monsieur l'abb=E9, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to ma= ke it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire ------=_Part_4255_5822252.1130967739353 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline try bugmenot.com

On 11/2/05, = Rick Monteverde <rick@highsurf.= com> wrote:
You have to jo= in 'em to read 'em, then you get spammed.
=  
Executive summ= ary?
=  
Thanks,=
=  
R.
-----Original Message-----
From: Ron Wormus [mailto: protech frii.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2005 9:00 AM=
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: New Battery Story

http://w= ww.economist.com/science/tq/displayStory.cfm?story_id=3D4368196



--
"= Monsieur l'abb=E9, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to mak= e it possible for you to continue to write"  Voltaire=20 ------=_Part_4255_5822252.1130967739353-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 2 14:22:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA2MLrhl017054; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 14:22:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA2MHnNA015579; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 14:17:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 14:17:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051102170720.041449a0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2005 17:16:57 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Prius used as an emergency generator Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64248 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Actually, any car will do, but a hybrid is particularly well-suited to this application. See: http://www.invertersrus.com/priusinverter.html If I did not already have an emergency 3 kW generator I would get one of these gadgets. I am thinking of getting the 75 W version, that plugs into the dashboard DC outlet. I have heard that this $34 "Kill-A-Watt" AC watt meter is pretty good too: http://www.invertersrus.com/killawatt.html I would like to buy one and send it to Mark Mills, the guy who claims that the average personal computer consumes 1 kW. That would be pretty funny except that resident Bush and the Wall Street Journal have quoted him, and he has been invited to testify before Congress. He is with the Greening Earth Society, the coal industry front organization that is trying to convince the world that global warming is good for you. This gives you an idea of who makes national energy policy in the U.S., and how much they know about the subject. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 2 18:10:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA32ACpZ011549; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 18:10:27 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA32AA7N011535; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 18:10:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 18:10:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: ISS Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 13:09:41 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta04sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.58.89] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Thu, 3 Nov 2005 02:09:41 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id jA329lJe011375 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64249 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi, Since the ISS isn't doing a great deal of good science where it is, why not use it to go to Mars? Since it's already in Earth orbit, it should cut down on the cost considerably. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 2 18:56:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA32tiJv027310; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 18:56:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA32thxo027299; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 18:55:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 18:55:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2005 19:57:39 -0700 From: Ron Wormus To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Battery Story.. Here is text Message-ID: <748578.1130961459 localhost> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.2.1 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="==========00754352==========" Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64250 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --==========00754352========== Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Sorry didn't know it wasn't generally available. Here it = is. Ron MONITOR Building a better battery Sep 15th 2005 >From The Economist print edition Energy: As portable devices become ever more elaborate and=20 demand ever more power, will battery technology be able to=20 keep up? JUST as you can never be too rich or too thin, you can=20 never have a battery that lasts too long. But as mobile=20 devices accumulate new power-sapping features, battery=20 technology has been struggling to keep up. This led Yrj=F6=20 Neuvo, the chief technologist at Nokia, the world's largest = handset-maker, to warn of an impending mobile-energy crisis = last year. But now several new developments could be about=20 to come to the rescue. In February, Altair Nanotechnologies, a small firm based in = Reno, Nevada, announced a new kind of lithium-ion battery,=20 the technology that powers many portable devices. Its=20 prototype has three times the capacity of existing=20 batteries and can be fully charged in six minutes. Lithium-ion batteries are so named because during charging=20 and discharging, lithium ions migrate between the battery's = positive electrode (anode) and negative electrode=20 (cathode). Altair's trick was to coat the anode with=20 lithium-titanate nanocrystals, says Roy Graham, the=20 company's development director. This enlarges the surface=20 area of the anode from around three square metres per gram=20 to 100 square metres, increasing the capacity of the=20 battery and boosting the rate at which ions are able to=20 move to and from the anode, which is what determines how=20 long it takes to charge. In June, Altair secured a $477,000 = grant from America's National Science Foundation to further = its design by using nanoparticles on both electrodes. This=20 could further increase power density and reduce charging=20 time, says Mr Graham. Hard on the heels of Altair's announcement, Toshiba=20 revealed that it too has developed a battery using=20 nanotechnology that is capable of charging to 80% of full=20 capacity in one minute. The company is still working on=20 improving the stability and reliability of the design, but=20 plans to start selling the new batteries next year. Hiroko=20 Mochida of Toshiba says the initial uses will be in=20 electric cars and power tools, where high capacity and=20 rapid charging are particularly necessary. Toshiba will not = go into detail about its new design, but, like Altair's, it = seems to use nanoparticles to increase the surface area of=20 the electrodes. There have also been recent improvements to a completely=20 different kind of battery design, known as =3Fbeta = voltaic=3F=20 technology. Such batteries use beta particles from a=20 radioactive source to generate a current in semiconductor=20 material, in much the same way that photons liberate=20 electrons to generate a current in photovoltaic solar=20 cells. Batteries of this type can run for years, and are=20 used in devices such as space probes and pacemakers, where=20 changing the battery is impractical. Beta voltaics are safe = and reliable but are limited by very low energy yields,=20 says Philippe Fauchet of the University of Rochester in New = York. Now his team has developed a way to increase the power=20 output tenfold, by increasing the surface area of the=20 exposed semiconductor. Instead of a flat surface, his=20 design uses a type of porous silicon, the surface of which=20 is riddled with tiny pits. The radioactive gas within the=20 pits is then almost entirely surrounded by the=20 semiconductor, increasing the chances of catching the beta=20 particles.The technology is now being developed by BetaBatt = of Houston, Texas, which co-developed the new design. There = is a growing demand for long-life batteries in medical=20 applications, he says. It all sounds promising. But no matter how hard researchers = work to cram more energy into batteries, they are vastly=20 outnumbered by other researchers dreaming up new ways to=20 consume it. --On Wednesday, November 02, 2005 11:27 AM -1000 Rick=3D20 Monteverde wrote: > > You have to join 'em to read 'em, then you get spammed. > > Executive summary? > > Thanks, --==========00754352========== Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline ArialSorry didn't = know it wasn't generally available. Here it is. Ron MONITOR Building a better battery Sep 15th 2005 >From The Economist print edition Energy: As portable devices become ever more elaborate and = demand ever more power, will battery technology be able to = keep up? JUST as you can never be too rich or too thin, you can = never have a battery that lasts too long. But as mobile = devices accumulate new power-sapping features, battery = technology has been struggling to keep up. This led Yrj=F6 = Neuvo, the chief technologist at Nokia, the world's largest = handset-maker, to warn of an impending mobile-energy crisis = last year. But now several new developments could be about = to come to the rescue. In February, Altair Nanotechnologies, a small firm based in = Reno, Nevada, announced a new kind of lithium-ion battery, = the technology that powers many portable devices. Its = prototype has three times the capacity of existing = batteries and can be fully charged in six minutes. Lithium-ion batteries are so named because during charging = and discharging, lithium ions migrate between the battery's = positive electrode (anode) and negative electrode = (cathode). Altair's trick was to coat the anode with = lithium-titanate nanocrystals, says Roy Graham, the = company's development director. This enlarges the surface = area of the anode from around three square metres per gram = to 100 square metres, increasing the capacity of the = battery and boosting the rate at which ions are able to = move to and from the anode, which is what determines how = long it takes to charge. In June, Altair secured a $477,000 = grant from America's National Science Foundation to further = its design by using nanoparticles on both electrodes. This = could further increase power density and reduce charging = time, says Mr Graham. Hard on the heels of Altair's announcement, Toshiba = revealed that it too has developed a battery using = nanotechnology that is capable of charging to 80% of full = capacity in one minute. The company is still working on = improving the stability and reliability of the design, but = plans to start selling the new batteries next year. Hiroko = Mochida of Toshiba says the initial uses will be in = electric cars and power tools, where high capacity and = rapid charging are particularly necessary. Toshiba will not = go into detail about its new design, but, like Altair's, it = seems to use nanoparticles to increase the surface area of = the electrodes. There have also been recent improvements to a completely = different kind of battery design, known as =3Fbeta = voltaic=3F technology. Such batteries use beta particles = from a radioactive source to generate a current in = semiconductor material, in much the same way that photons = liberate electrons to generate a current in photovoltaic = solar cells. Batteries of this type can run for years, and = are used in devices such as space probes and pacemakers, = where changing the battery is impractical. Beta voltaics = are safe and reliable but are limited by very low energy = yields, says Philippe Fauchet of the University of = Rochester in New York.=20 Now his team has developed a way to increase the power = output tenfold, by increasing the surface area of the = exposed semiconductor. Instead of a flat surface, his = design uses a type of porous silicon, the surface of which = is riddled with tiny pits. The radioactive gas within the = pits is then almost entirely surrounded by the = semiconductor, increasing the chances of catching the beta = particles.The technology is now being developed by BetaBatt = of Houston, Texas, which co-developed the new design. There = is a growing demand for long-life batteries in medical = applications, he says.=20 It all sounds promising. But no matter how hard researchers = work to cram more energy into batteries, they are vastly = outnumbered by other researchers dreaming up new ways to = consume it. --On Wednesday, November 02, 2005 11:27 AM -1000 Rick=3D20 Monteverde < wrote: > > You have to join 'em to read 'em, then you get spammed. > > Executive summary? > > Thanks, --==========00754352==========-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 2 19:21:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA33L6BM005664; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 19:21:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA33KxgZ005608; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 19:20:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 19:20:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <436981D4.6010807 ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2005 20:19:48 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Prius used as an emergency generator References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051102170720.041449a0 pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20051102170720.041449a0 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64251 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I suggest if you want to power serious items that you attach the DC-AC inverter directly to the 12 V battery. Remember, for a 100 W load at 110 V, the current at 12 V will be about 10 A, which is about the limit of most wiring at an outlet in a car. In any case, you need to know the wiring limit, in addition to the battery limit. Ed Jed Rothwell wrote: > Actually, any car will do, but a hybrid is particularly well-suited to > this application. See: > > http://www.invertersrus.com/priusinverter.html > > If I did not already have an emergency 3 kW generator I would get one of > these gadgets. I am thinking of getting the 75 W version, that plugs > into the dashboard DC outlet. > > I have heard that this $34 "Kill-A-Watt" AC watt meter is pretty good too: > > http://www.invertersrus.com/killawatt.html > > I would like to buy one and send it to Mark Mills, the guy who claims > that the average personal computer consumes 1 kW. That would be pretty > funny except that resident Bush and the Wall Street Journal have quoted > him, and he has been invited to testify before Congress. He is with the > Greening Earth Society, the coal industry front organization that is > trying to convince the world that global warming is good for you. > > This gives you an idea of who makes national energy policy in the U.S., > and how much they know about the subject. > > - Jed > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 2 19:53:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA33rJdU020526; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 19:53:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA33rFbU020492; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 19:53:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 19:53:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=I7M4MlLOwmAOEJgJoqqOjeagcNt0KpUrnvAKMffUziuozoXXDmTwae+VUR8zG/r+; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:User-Agent:References:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Disposition:Message-Id:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: ISS Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 22:32:35 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200511022230.58702.rockcast earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: 161777525297e62b1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79eb2c0f463e8bf7c94dcc407d1d6d8a6b350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 71.115.182.204 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64252 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wednesday 02 November 2005 21:09, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > Hi, > > Since the ISS isn't doing a great deal of good science where it > is, why not use it to go to Mars? Since it's already in Earth > orbit, it should cut down on the cost considerably. > I would love to go to space.....in a real ship.....which, regrettably, the ISS is not. The ISS is a large kluge put into an unsafe orbit not much higher than a balloon could fly if it had any atmosphere. In fact, a company called JP Aerospace is planning to do just that. Called "America's 'other' space program!", it is quietly building proof of concept models of its space travel by dirigible system. Back to a Mars vessel! We need a large ship. Molto largo! It needs to have a rotating ring incorporated into the structure to provide artificial gravity (unless we want to admit to possessing a working Podkletnov/Li device). It needs a real space propulsion system, not some damn chemicals that yield no real propulsion gain but take up ninety percent or more of the 'rocket' Only nuclear systems offer any hope of that, and I am afraid that only the Chinese are capable to do that at this time....they are the only ones with the guts. Unless of course Dr R Mills can come to our aid with a large hydrino 'black light' rocket! It also has to have a grand amount of shielding, not from the reactor which puts out, say, X amount of radiation; but from the 100X or so radiological and microparticulate environment of deep intrastellar space between us and Mars or any other planet we would want to visit. A big enough ship could also carry aboard it a space tether system for multiple visits to the surface of interesting places, Mars included. Alternatively it could carry a scaled down nuclear thruster system in what amounts to a planetary shuttle. We probably don't want to admit to being able to build one of these now, but for smaller gravity wells what we want to admit to would do for Mars. Such a ship would not be a one shot throw away. We could keep such a ship in service for decades, learning in intrastellar space lessons that would serve us when we develope better interstellar systems. Interstellar travel will have to wait for us to outgrow our religion of Einsteinianism...or find a way to shrink space ahead and expand it in the rear of our craft. Large ships have another advantage as well, better morale. A large ship would be like a home and at least feel secure....and could carry backups for more critical systems. The Russians know very well that interpersonal crew problems magnify on small ships. Really small ships are a perfect recipe for murder, and that is seemingly the limit of the creativity bankrupt view of the American government in this matter. But then this same government sents our troops in rag top jeeps to fight fanatics in Iraq armed with RPGs...sniper rifles....recoilless rifles....40mm AT guns...cherry bombs in pepsi bottles....molotov martinis....HMGs...LMGs ........not to mention W.......M......D....................sssshhhhhhhhh. If the oil companies want to sell that gasoline and won't be placated any other way, use the chemicals for a fleet of dumb boosters to get the parts of the main ship into orbit where it can be assembled by a crew living on the ISS......use the ISS as a construction shack! Standing Bear From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 2 20:02:01 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA341S2O023108; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 20:01:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA341P0D023083; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 20:01:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 20:01:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=qvv+qoqBEAbMp+Po/jE/neomNMjI7nNBfVjJMX6twngCUGXYD4iIC/di6myYFp0d; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:User-Agent:References:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Disposition:Message-Id:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Prius used as an emergency generator Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 23:14:28 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051102170720.041449a0 pop.mindspring.com> <436981D4.6010807@ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: <436981D4.6010807 ix.netcom.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200511022314.28856.rockcast earthlink.net> X-ELNK-Trace: 161777525297e62b1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79702c3ffcb5e999a15bef33202006173f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 71.115.182.204 Resent-Message-ID: <5y3tQ.A.noF.VuYaDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64253 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wednesday 02 November 2005 22:19, Edmund Storms wrote: > I suggest if you want to power serious items that you attach the DC-AC > inverter directly to the 12 V battery. Remember, for a 100 W load at > 110 V, the current at 12 V will be about 10 A, which is about the limit > of most wiring at an outlet in a car. In any case, you need to know the > wiring limit, in addition to the battery limit. > > Ed > > Jed Rothwell wrote: > > Actually, any car will do, but a hybrid is particularly well-suited to > > this application. See: > > > > http://www.invertersrus.com/priusinverter.html > > > > If I did not already have an emergency 3 kW generator I would get one of > > these gadgets. I am thinking of getting the 75 W version, that plugs > > into the dashboard DC outlet. > > > > I have heard that this $34 "Kill-A-Watt" AC watt meter is pretty good > > too: > > > > http://www.invertersrus.com/killawatt.html > > > > I would like to buy one and send it to Mark Mills, the guy who claims > > that the average personal computer consumes 1 kW. That would be pretty > > funny except that resident Bush and the Wall Street Journal have quoted > > him, and he has been invited to testify before Congress. He is with the > > Greening Earth Society, the coal industry front organization that is > > trying to convince the world that global warming is good for you. > > > > This gives you an idea of who makes national energy policy in the U.S., > > and how much they know about the subject. > > > > - Jed Many years ago I had a computer that consumed more than a kilowatt, but not by much. It was an IBM system 34 that I got at a yard sale for a couple hundred dollars. It ran pretty good for a while, but repairmen were pretty scarce for it and the hard drive took a dive. That baby came with a hefty printer, too. An old line printer. Standing Bear From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 2 20:11:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA34A9oR026117; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 20:10:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA349xBv026030; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 20:09:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 20:09:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAA+k= Message-ID: <43698D86.9010203 iinet.net.au> Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 15:09:42 +1100 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: ISS References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64254 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Firstly the ISS is the dry dock not the ship. It is actually doing quite a lot of quiet science; learning to live in space *was* the original objective. The ISS would not survive a trip to Mars. It would not survive the required acceleration, and it would not carry enough supplys to make the round trip of three to five years. About 30% of its mass would not be required on a trip to Mars but can't be removed. I'm in the Australian Mars society and the National space society NSS. We're doing the design work that Nasa keeps claiming the credit for. Space exploration would be simpler if we had the heavy lift craft the National Space Society NSS has been talking about for years and Nasa has just announced it now will slowly design and build the thing./ /That's called reinventing the wheel; given that volunteers in the NSS did a full design a decade a go. The heavy lift ship could lift the remaining ISS components in two shots. It can lift ~100 tons. We could do one lift if all the bits fitted in one bundle but they don't. *Dou!* It could, for the cost of two shuttle launches, put about 80 tons in Mars orbit or 30 to 40 tons on the surface. Mars colonization goes in five phases. * Robotic exploration. Now underway. * An Orbiting network of data relay sats and navigation beacons. Mars Net. It's been designed awaiting funds. This means that a crew or robot on Mars can call earth at any time from anywhere on Mars and no-one can get lost. It also means a team on Mars can teleoperate a robot anywhere on the planet in real time at any time. We have 3 fission options. Pebble bed, a Hafnium reacter and neutron bombarded isotops. That's safer than EVA's. * Mars fuel plant launch. A robot rover equipped unmanned mars lander that makes fuel from Martian atmosphere. Powered by some kind of reactor. Cold fusion would be nice. We need 50 kw. * Manned exploration. Fast rugged rovers with long range. Uses the fuel from the fuel plant to fly home. * Permanent base, probably part underground, part in multistory buildings and part in modular glass houses. It needs to be placed near a multi-ton water ice deposit. Pressure domes, farm designs and other system are either in testing or on the drawing board. If we had the launch money we could build and launch Mars Net plus two nuclear powered rover in 18 months. Several people are working on private launch funding. Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >Hi, > >Since the ISS isn't doing a great deal of good science where it >is, why not use it to go to Mars? Since it's already in Earth >orbit, it should cut down on the cost considerably. > >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk > >http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > >Competition provides the motivation, >Cooperation provides the means. > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 2 21:42:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA35fU3V028803; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 21:41:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA35fP47028759; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 21:41:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 21:41:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: ISS Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 16:40:58 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <2g6jm11lta48pb5rn8k2ft0htisr5sm4hs 4ax.com> References: <200511022230.58702.rockcast@earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <200511022230.58702.rockcast earthlink.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta02sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.58.89] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Thu, 3 Nov 2005 05:40:57 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id jA35f5op028623 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64255 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Standing Bear's message of Wed, 2 Nov 2005 22:32:35 -0500: Hi, [snip] >On Wednesday 02 November 2005 21:09, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >> Hi, >> >> Since the ISS isn't doing a great deal of good science where it >> is, why not use it to go to Mars? Since it's already in Earth >> orbit, it should cut down on the cost considerably. >> > >I would love to go to space.....in a real ship.....which, regrettably, the ISS >is not. The ISS is a large kluge put into an unsafe orbit not much higher >than a balloon could fly if it had any atmosphere. In fact, a company called >JP Aerospace is planning to do just that. Called "America's 'other' space >program!", it is quietly building proof of concept models of its space travel >by dirigible system. Back to a Mars vessel! We need a large ship. Molto >largo! It needs to have a rotating ring incorporated into the structure to >provide artificial gravity (unless we want to admit to possessing a working >Podkletnov/Li device). It needs a real space propulsion system, not some >damn chemicals that yield no real propulsion gain but take up ninety percent >or more of the 'rocket' Only nuclear systems offer any hope of that, Actually, I agree with this. However none of it precludes use of the ISS in the construction. Whatever goes to Mars is going to be modular anyway, so you might as well use the ISS for some of the modules. > and I >am afraid that only the Chinese are capable to do that at this time....they >are the only ones with the guts. This may also be true. Another way of looking at it is that some already know that there are other far better ways of doing this. >Unless of course Dr R Mills can come to our >aid with a large hydrino 'black light' rocket! I doubt you will ever see hydrinos used directly in rocket propulsion. I suspect that the reaction cross section is too small ,though with a starting "fuel" already largely comprising severely shrunken hydrinos, it might work. However I think in that case you are probably really running a fusion engine. > It also has to have a grand amount of shielding, not from the reactor >which puts out, say, X amount of radiation; but from the 100X or so >radiological and microparticulate environment of deep intrastellar space >between us and Mars or any other planet we would want to visit. Carrying a strong magnetic field wrapped about the ship might afford best protection for weight, and the ship could be designed with the main living quarters at the core, surrounded by a.o. the water supply. The living quarters could also be *inside* any modules designed to be left behind at Mars, i.e. use an onion design as much as possible. (Every little bit of shielding helps). >A big enough >ship could also carry aboard it a space tether system for multiple visits to >the surface of interesting places, Mars included. A bit fanciful I fear. >Alternatively it could >carry a scaled down nuclear thruster system in what amounts to a planetary >shuttle. Much more likely. [snip] > Large ships have another advantage as well, better morale. Agreed. Everyone needs to be able to have some time to themselves occasionally. Those that grew up as members of large families might make the best crew. They have learned early on in life how to live in close quarters with many people with different temperaments. They should also spend at least a month together under similar circumstances here on Earth, before they leave. That would serve to expose any raw nerves, and provide an opportunity to sort out any problems before they become real problems. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 2 22:17:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA36Gkha016368; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 22:17:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA36Gh9U016340; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 22:16:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 22:16:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Message-ID: <4369AB2B.9090102 iinet.net.au> Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 17:16:11 +1100 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: ISS References: <200511022230.58702.rockcast@earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <200511022230.58702.rockcast earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64256 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: That's the key. JP aerospace to orbit; people and supplies. A Heavy lift craft for anything bigger. Podkletnov's device could be made into a reactionless drive if we can get reliable mass production of his disks and steady high voltage power supply. I'm in corrispondance with Dr Podklenov. Fission power and may be useful but fission rockets are out of date we have faster plasma drives with higher Isp. See http://www.ess.washington.edu/Space/propulsion.html and http://prl.anu.edu.au/SP3/research/HDLT We don't realy needed big ships we can use a 200 m tether to bind the ship and its spent booster togeather to make a thing that spins at 1 Rpm. We get adequate gravity for the crew. If Dr Podkletnov's disks are what I think they are then we can stack them for both propulsion and gravity and fly anywhere in a few days. Standing Bear wrote: >On Wednesday 02 November 2005 21:09, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > > >>Hi, >> >>Since the ISS isn't doing a great deal of good science where it >>is, why not use it to go to Mars? Since it's already in Earth >>orbit, it should cut down on the cost considerably. >> >> >> > >I would love to go to space.....in a real ship.....which, regrettably, the ISS >is not. The ISS is a large kluge put into an unsafe orbit not much higher >than a balloon could fly if it had any atmosphere. In fact, a company called >JP Aerospace is planning to do just that. Called "America's 'other' space >program!", it is quietly building proof of concept models of its space travel >by dirigible system. Back to a Mars vessel! We need a large ship. Molto >largo! It needs to have a rotating ring incorporated into the structure to >provide artificial gravity (unless we want to admit to possessing a working >Podkletnov/Li device). It needs a real space propulsion system, not some >damn chemicals that yield no real propulsion gain but take up ninety percent >or more of the 'rocket' Only nuclear systems offer any hope of that, and I >am afraid that only the Chinese are capable to do that at this time....they >are the only ones with the guts. Unless of course Dr R Mills can come to our >aid with a large hydrino 'black light' rocket! > It also has to have a grand amount of shielding, not from the reactor >which puts out, say, X amount of radiation; but from the 100X or so >radiological and microparticulate environment of deep intrastellar space >between us and Mars or any other planet we would want to visit. A big enough >ship could also carry aboard it a space tether system for multiple visits to >the surface of interesting places, Mars included. Alternatively it could >carry a scaled down nuclear thruster system in what amounts to a planetary >shuttle. We probably don't want to admit to being able to build one of these >now, but for smaller gravity wells what we want to admit to would do for >Mars. Such a ship would not be a one shot throw away. We could keep such a >ship in service for decades, learning in intrastellar space lessons that >would serve us when we develope better interstellar systems. Interstellar >travel will have to wait for us to outgrow our religion of >Einsteinianism...or find a way to shrink space ahead and expand it in the >rear of our craft. > Large ships have another advantage as well, better morale. A large ship >would be like a home and at least feel secure....and could carry backups for >more critical systems. > The Russians know very well that interpersonal crew problems magnify on >small ships. Really small ships are a perfect recipe for murder, and that is >seemingly the limit of the creativity bankrupt view of the American >government in this matter. > But then this same government sents our troops in rag top jeeps to fight >fanatics in Iraq armed with RPGs...sniper rifles....recoilless rifles....40mm >AT guns...cherry bombs in pepsi bottles....molotov martinis....HMGs...LMGs >........not to mention W.......M......D....................sssshhhhhhhhh. > If the oil companies want to sell that gasoline and won't be placated any >other way, use the chemicals for a fleet of dumb boosters to get the parts >of the main ship into orbit where it can be assembled by a crew living on the >ISS......use the ISS as a construction shack! > >Standing Bear > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 2 22:30:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA36Tx58020183; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 22:30:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA36Tw8h020161; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 22:29:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 22:29:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: ISS Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 17:29:31 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <43698D86.9010203@iinet.net.au> In-Reply-To: <43698D86.9010203 iinet.net.au> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta02sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.58.89] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Thu, 3 Nov 2005 06:29:31 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id jA36TapJ020068 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64257 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Wesley Bruce's message of Thu, 03 Nov 2005 15:09:42 +1100: Hi, [snip] >Firstly the ISS is the dry dock not the ship. It is actually doing quite >a lot of quiet science; learning to live in space *was* the original >objective. >The ISS would not survive a trip to Mars. It would not survive the >required acceleration, I think that if you put the modules in line, rather than in their current configuration, it wouldn't have any problem with the acceleration. However I'm more curious about how long the trip would take using a nuclear reactor and an ion engine at low acceleration as opposed to the high acceleration chemical thruster you appear to be considering. >and it would not carry enough supplys to make the >round trip of three to five years. It need not be the whole ship. >About 30% of its mass would not be >required on a trip to Mars but can't be removed. What mass would that be, and why can't it be removed? >I'm in the Australian >Mars society and the National space society NSS. We're doing the design >work that Nasa keeps claiming the credit for. Excellent, then you should be able to answer all my questions! :) > >Space exploration would be simpler if we had the heavy lift craft the >National Space Society NSS has been talking about for years and Nasa has >just announced it now will slowly design and build the thing./ /That's >called reinventing the wheel; given that volunteers in the NSS did a >full design a decade a go. The heavy lift ship could lift the remaining >ISS components in two shots. It can lift ~100 tons. We could do one lift >if all the bits fitted in one bundle but they don't. *Dou!* What's the lifting capacity of the Russian's largest rocket? [snip] > * An Orbiting network of data relay sats and navigation beacons. > Mars Net. It's been designed awaiting funds. This means that a How many satellites are already in Mars orbit, and is there any reason they can't talk to one another, and thus be used as relay satellites? I know there is at least one, if you count the trip vessel as a second, then you need only one other small satellite to form a triangle, and that could be taken along on the trip. > crew or robot on Mars can call earth at any time from anywhere on > Mars and no-one can get lost. It also means a team on Mars can > teleoperate a robot anywhere on the planet in real time at any > time. >We have 3 fission options. Pebble bed, a and > neutron bombarded isotops. That's safer than EVA's. By the time this mission gets off the ground, you may have a CF option as well. BTW I don't think the Hafnium reactor is for real. Perhaps you could explain the "neutron bombarded isotopes" - where do the neutrons come from? Also, if by "Hafnium reactor" you are referring to Hf-178, then that's not really a fission option. [snip] > * Mars fuel plant launch. A robot rover equipped unmanned mars > lander that makes fuel from Martian atmosphere. Powered by some > kind of reactor. Cold fusion would be nice. We need 50 kw. Why not land the reactor portion of the main ship on Mars? Then you can use the power from the main reactor to create all the fuel you need in a short period of time. It would save the whole fuel plant trip. It could also make enough fuel for it's own launch for the return trip. The fuel plant could be taken along on the main ship. Might be better than landing only to discover that the previous fuel plant mission didn't quite work, and you now have no way of getting back. If the crew + fuel plant landing doesn't work, then the crew are probably dead, and not very interested in coming back anyway. [snip] > * Permanent base, probably part underground, part in multistory > buildings and part in modular glass houses. It needs to be placed > near a multi-ton water ice deposit. Pressure domes, farm designs > and other system are either in testing or on the drawing board. Given that the Martian atmosphere is so thin, wouldn't you expect the radiation hazard on the surface to be greater than on Earth? If so, can you really afford to have part of it in a multi-story building? (or is that just for the farms?) (Do the current Mars rovers have radiation detectors on board?) [snip] BTW it might be an idea to have 2 smaller reactors rather than 1 large one. Then one can be left in orbit, while one lands. On the trips out and back, both can be used in tandem. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 2 23:56:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA37taUM014991; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 23:55:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA37tYdT014977; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 23:55:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 23:55:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: temalloy mail.usfamily.net Message-Id: Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 01:55:10 -0600 To: Vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Podkletnov's Disks Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64258 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Bruce posted; Podkletnov's device could be made into a reactionless drive if we can get reliable mass production of his disks and steady high voltage power supply. I'm in corrispondance with Dr Podklenov This is very interesting. Have you observed this unidirectional force? Do you have an explanation for the mechanism? I was quite fascinated with the reactionless drive. a Both from a practical and theoretical standpoint. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 3 02:15:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA3AEx3r027214; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 02:15:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA3AEvf9027197; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 02:14:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 02:14:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=WPrdP4i82HpZoKZg7aT1n9YyPdQHIZ9xLIfX0mAdnH/lAU4wqHEf9p2z4QWO3s3T; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22005114391358930 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Beryllium Spinstability Neutrons Alphas? Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 03:13:58 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940b0d883296bf6c4d246f26f0285ec54c6350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.47 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64259 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Spinstability (Spin Precession Instability) SPI. Mizuno's neutrons from Deuterium in a strong magnetic field might be a product of collisions between the precessing deuterons where the mcr = hbar speed-of-light spins causing knock-off of the 2.23 MeV bound neutrons If so, the minus 3/2 spin of Beryllium (4 Be9) with it's 1.67 MeV neutron binding energy gives one pause to wonder if Beryllium vapor, liquid, or solid could act similarly and give off it's neutron and two high energy He4 ++ nuclei? Beryllium is Very Hazardous to work with. Blood Poisoning & Chronic Respiratory Disease. Beryllium-Palladium "alloy" for CF Reaction Enhancement? Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Spinstability  (Spin Precession Instability)   SPI. 
 
Mizuno's neutrons from Deuterium in a strong magnetic field might be
a product of  collisions between the precessing deuterons
where the mcr = hbar speed-of-light spins causing knock-off of the
2.23 MeV bound neutrons
If so, the  minus 3/2 spin of Beryllium (4 Be9) with it's 1.67 MeV neutron binding
energy gives one pause to wonder if Beryllium vapor, liquid, or solid could act
similarly and give off it's neutron and two high energy He4 ++ nuclei?
 
Beryllium is Very Hazardous to work with. Blood Poisoning & Chronic Respiratory Disease.
 
Beryllium-Palladium "alloy" for CF Reaction Enhancement?
 
Fred
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 3 07:13:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA3FCdmW001513; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 07:12:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA3FCbWM001479; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 07:12:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 07:12:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051103100226.04f2b1b0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 10:12:02 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Prius used as an emergency generator In-Reply-To: <436981D4.6010807 ix.netcom.com> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051102170720.041449a0 pop.mindspring.com> <436981D4.6010807 ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64260 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Edmund Storms wrote: >I suggest if you want to power serious items that you attach the DC-AC >inverter directly to the 12 V battery. Yes, that's what guy suggested here: http://www.invertersrus.com/priusinverter.html QUOTE: "I have two inverters in my Toyota Prius. I use an AIMS 75 Watt Power Inverter plugged into the 'cigarette lighter' outlet and use it to run my laptop . . . I also have an AIMS 1250 Watt modified sine wave power inverter mounted in the rear beside the rest of my disaster preparedness kit, in the event of an earthquake . . . It is set up to power the refrigerator, TV, computer and selected lights in the house. . . [The inverter] connects to this 12v battery to provide the 120v AC to the house. A full tank of gas (10 gallons) could keep my house powered for weeks." 1250 watts is more than you might think, especially with today's low-wattage refrigerators, compact fluorescent lights and personal computers. My 3 kW generator is more than enough during most outages, even at night. The only thing it does not do is run the gas furnace (the blower, lighter, controls, etc). I would have to modify the house wiring for that. I would be a little bit concerned about putting such a large inverter on the battery for hours or days at a time. Could that hurt the battery? - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 3 08:00:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA3G06kt021615; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 08:00:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA3FrBDx018709; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 07:53:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 07:53:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051103104308.04ef18e0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 10:52:34 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Prius used as an emergency generator In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20051103100226.04f2b1b0 pop.mindspring.com> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051102170720.041449a0 pop.mindspring.com> <436981D4.6010807 ix.netcom.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20051103100226.04f2b1b0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64261 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: >1250 watts is more than you might think, especially with today's >low-wattage refrigerators, compact fluorescent lights and personal >computers. My 3 kW generator is more than enough during most outages, even >at night. The 1250 W inverter cost only $129. It would pay for itself after one or two Atlanta power outages, by preserving the food in the refrigerator. With our 3 kW gasoline unit, we run the fridge for maybe 15 minutes every hour, and we do not open the freezer. Atlanta is prone to power outages because we have many trees and old power lines. Actually, we have had so many storms in recent years that most of the old trees have fallen in my neighborhood, so we have not had a major outage in a year or so. To maintain the gasoline generator, once or twice a year you should pour a cup of gas into the machine and crank it up, then put a load on the generator and let it run for 20 minutes. Ours paid for itself when we bought it, when we were out of power for a week in the middle of winter, with kids in the house. We would have been forced to go to a motel without it. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 3 08:18:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA3GHjtm030399; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 08:18:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA3GHiIS030380; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 08:17:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 08:17:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <436A37E1.90003 ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 09:16:33 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Prius used as an emergency generator References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051102170720.041449a0 pop.mindspring.com> <436981D4.6010807@ix.netcom.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20051103100226.04f2b1b0@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20051103100226.04f2b1b0 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64262 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Edmund Storms wrote: > >> I suggest if you want to power serious items that you attach the DC-AC >> inverter directly to the 12 V battery. > > > Yes, that's what guy suggested here: > http://www.invertersrus.com/priusinverter.html QUOTE: > > "I have two inverters in my Toyota Prius. I use an AIMS 75 Watt Power > Inverter plugged into the 'cigarette lighter' outlet and use it to run > my laptop . . . > > I also have an AIMS 1250 Watt modified sine wave power inverter mounted > in the rear beside the rest of my disaster preparedness kit, in the > event of an earthquake . . . It is set up to power the refrigerator, > TV, computer and selected lights in the house. . . > > [The inverter] connects to this 12v battery to provide the 120v AC to > the house. A full tank of gas (10 gallons) could keep my house powered > for weeks." > > 1250 watts is more than you might think, especially with today's > low-wattage refrigerators, compact fluorescent lights and personal > computers. My 3 kW generator is more than enough during most outages, > even at night. The only thing it does not do is run the gas furnace (the > blower, lighter, controls, etc). I would have to modify the house wiring > for that. > > I would be a little bit concerned about putting such a large inverter on > the battery for hours or days at a time. Could that hurt the battery? Success depends on how much current can be supplied to the 12V battery by the 200V battery. As long as this current is equal to or greater than the current being drawn from the 12 V battery, the 12 V battery is hardly being used. If the supplied current is less than the current being drawn, the 12 V battery will naturally be drained. Ed > > - Jed > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 3 08:45:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA3GjPZ2009307; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 08:45:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA3GjO7o009287; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 08:45:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 08:45:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 09:47:21 -0700 From: Ron Wormus To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: OT: Sony is in the Virus business Message-ID: <10387031.1131011241 localhost> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.2.1 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="==========10404562==========" Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64263 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --==========10404562========== Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received this morning. I don't play CD's on my computer (I use mp3's)but it revealing anyway. ____________________________ Before you (or your children) load that new music CD into your computer to play BE VERY CAREFUL that it is not from SONY or BMG (BMG is owned by Sony). Long story made short: Sony recently started shipping CD's with Content/Copy Protection. If you load one of these CD's into your PC (the only thing which can play them), your PC will get a whole bunch of new software installed. This software is "cloaked" so you can't see the files which are installed. There is no tool to uninstall the files. If you do try to uninstall the software it will probably break your computer (can you say "rebuild the Operating System"?), and if you leave the software on your PC it will slow it down and makes it vulnerable to virus attacks. No problem if you've got a mac - not only will the software not install but the music won't play! Here's a link to a short news story: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/1 1/02/AR2005110202362.html And for the geeks out there, here's the looooong story: http://www.sysinternals.com/blog/2005/10/sony-rootkits-and- digital-rights.html Please forward this to friends before their PC's get infected with Sony's malware! --==========10404562========== Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline ArialReceived this = morning. I don't play CD's on my computer (I use mp3's)but = it revealing anyway. ____________________________ Before you (or your children) load that new music CD into = your computer to play BE VERY CAREFUL that it is not from = SONY or BMG (BMG is owned by Sony).=20 Long story made short:=20 Sony recently started shipping CD's with Content/Copy = Protection. If you load one of these CD's into your PC = (the only thing which can play them), your PC will get a = whole bunch of new software installed.=20 This software is "cloaked" so you can't see the files which = are installed. There is no tool to uninstall the files. If = you do try to uninstall the software it will probably break = your computer (can you say "rebuild the Operating = System"?), and if you leave the software on your PC it will = slow it down and makes it vulnerable to virus attacks.=20 No problem if you've got a mac - not only will the software = not install but the music won't play!=20 Here's a link to a short news story:=20 http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11= /02/AR2005110202362.html=20 =20 And for the geeks out there, here's the looooong story:=20 http://www.sysinternals.com/blog/2005/10/sony-rootkits-and-d= igital-rights.html=20 =20 Please forward this to friends before their PC's get = infected with Sony's malware! --==========10404562==========-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 3 09:27:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA3HR5CF029313; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 09:27:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA3HR4HB029295; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 09:27:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 09:27:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <008801c5e09b$bfb4d860$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051021172331.04217eb0 pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Small Nuclear Power Reactors Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 09:26:37 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0085_01C5E058.B0BD5870" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64264 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0085_01C5E058.B0BD5870 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Some time ago Jed Rothwell posted the original message: "All kinds of interesting stuff has been added to this UIC web site = lately. It is impressive. Almost too impressive; I fear they might = succeed and hold back the development of CF! Main index: http://www.uic.com.au/nip.htm Having seen this earlier posting as a segue - in a continuing multi-year = effort to kluge together, with limited resources, a much-improved = reactor concept - really a pre-design based on achievable goals - I had = updated some past posts with the following. But, alas, just noticed the = fact that it was never sent (apparently)... or at least didn't show up = in the archives. Maybe a "carnivore" captured it ;-)=20 This kind of subject matter is of limited interest to current vortex = posters, except for RvS it seems, but the archives will preserve it for = a few years, and if it turns out that there is anything valid or = pertinent in it, then hopefully it may serve as a seed for future = development. It makes more sense than anything currently on the scene = (if I do say so myself) and much more detail is available (for the cost = of a modest consulting contract). The scheme is to use an intense "independent" neutron source as a = "substitute accelerator" for a variant of the Rubbia-type plan. Dr. = Carlo Rubbia is a famous guy at CERN, but basically an idiot when it = comes to putting together a cost-effective strategy for an advanced = reactor that can burn its own waste. However he did popularize the = base-concept, and deserves some mention for that - even as deficient as = his design is/was. Rubbia designed an integrated accelerator-driven power reactor AND waste = clean-up unit, which is a great idea... but...stops far short of = optimum, and in this present alternative design, one could save $500 = million in capital cost by ditching the accelerator, another $200 = million by using an unpressurized reactor scheme, with a natural Uranium = "primary" unit, and the waste in a "secondary" adjoining unit - and = another approximately $2 billion by making it modular and = "mass-produced" (a few hundred to a thousand units per year).=20 This is no joke - approximately $2 billion of the cost of any planned or = recent-past nuclear plant in the USA goes (went) to bankers - as it is = the result of interest payments combined with very long construction = timing - one-off as the Brits like to say. That is now part of an = entrenched political reality. Kind of "Bohemian," one might suggest. But = it does not "need" to be that way. All of this can change with a number of identical, mass-produced, = modular rail or ship-mounted units, that are sold as turnkey packages. = It takes 10-20 modular units for a normal plant. Obviously one cannot = rail-mount either a proton accelerator of a steam plant. Those eggheads = at CERN may know their nucleonics down to the last quark, but they have = no real-world idea of how and why low capital costs, and modularity are = extremely important in the commercial arena. My preferred source for robust neutrons is/was a small aqueous = homogeneous reactor (basketball-sized) using heavy water and a small = amount of dissolved uranium nitride. Here you have a $50,000 replacement = for a $500 million mile-long accelerator. Yes, you will need several for = comparative purposes - as we are talking about smaller, modular units = rather than a single large complicated plant. "Free" neutrons are - pound for pound, among the most valuable = commodities on earth (even if you can only weigh them theoretically). = There is no cheaper way to produce them in a fairly intense flux (10^12 = per cm^3) than in the homogeneous reactor. It is super-safe even if it = does require a few kilograms of highly enriched fuel. There are ways to = eliminate the proliferation risk of this. The larger-reactor itself is a = breeder, and with ongoing partial-reprocessing, so that the initial = loading of both the homogeneous core and the much larger natural U = blanket is sufficient for a 50 year life. It is not that there is no = refueling - there is in fact continuous refueling and reprocessing. But = the difference is that all the fuel which is needed for 50 years is = included at the outset. Burnup is 90%. All waste which is not removed in = the minimal ongoing reprocessing, is burned in situ. With a cheap source of "makeup" neutrons - to be employed in smallish, = mass-produced rail-mounted subcritical reactor of about 50 MW each, = fueled by natural uranium - there is a lot of borrowing of other = concepts... so there is similarity here to the CANDU or newer ACR700 - = which designs are a pressurized plumbing nightmare, and do not get the = full benefit of an extremely "cheap" source of neutrons - although the = worst kept secret in nuclear engineering is that there is a huge anomaly = in how many "free" neutrons one gets from a deuterium moderator.=20 Here, the central core contains heavy water, a few Kg of dissolved = U-nitride and a duct to a very small deuteron accelerator - used for = startup only. Both the core and blanket are nominally subcritical. And = after a threshold flux has been initiated, and a magnetic field is = imposed, then both go critical, whereas neither will do it alone and = without the magnetic field. There is zero meltdown or runaway risk - as a homogeneous reactor is = inherently safe and the heavy water will boil away quickly if the flux = becomes too high. The flux is made asymmetrical and shifted outside the = central core and into the U-carbide blanket by the clever use of = magnetics. The rest of that part is proprietary, as is the direct = conversion scheme. Both have been hinted at in the literature, but = no-one has apparently put it all together in a hybrid package. A total redesign, with an eye towards smaller, cheaper, safer, and = no-steam (direct electrical conversion) could have be done here in the = USA anytime in the past two decades, were it not for the special = interests of the "club" dominated by the General Electric Company, which = is second to only Halliburton-Big-Oil in political clout (and has been = for 60 years previously). We have billions of dollars of sunk cost in a = military-focused infrastructure... consisting of antiquated dangerous = technology, based on using enriched fuel at low burn-up - totally = irresponsible - and this is dependent on a highly subsidized military = use of enriched-fuel. The club is locked-in by these past errors. All of = which was instigated by GE and Westinghouse and their minions at DoE and = DoD - and with little willingness to change things at the highest level. = It is a source of amazement that some European country has not = stepped-in with a better answer, but the unnecessary baggage and = political problems for nuclear energy are even more severe there. France = and England have their own special interests, and Germany is the only = other country with enough "brain-power" to pull it off - but they have = different political hurtles to overcome and a strong and mis-informed = green party. China is developing the brain-power and probably can do = this in the next generation - 2020 and beyond. For now, it is all = sloshing around in the muck of special interest politics. There is a most important and "telling" but also "dated" expose online = "The Bohemian Grove and The Nuclear Weapons Industry" originally = published in 1987, and much information in the article is not current so = far as many of the names have changed.=20 But the point of the article is even more disturbing now than then, = because this high-level "club" influence in greater in Washington now = than at any point in the post-war history. Sure, the positions in the = larger "club-of clubs" consisting of representative of skull-and-X = +bohemian +Texas oilers + whatever.... have changed, some individuals = named have died, and the status of many facilities has (nominally) = changed, and Halliburton has entered the club in a big way. Otherwise - = this is our big national problem with going nuclear - special interests. = Otherwise, many acceptable and ecologically sound answers have been = out-there for some time (although none of them make as much sense - in = an integrated package - as does this one ;-) Jones ------=_NextPart_000_0085_01C5E058.B0BD5870 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Some time ago Jed Rothwell posted = the original=20 message:

"All kinds of interesting stuff has been added to this = UIC web=20 site lately. It is impressive. Almost too impressive; I fear they might = succeed=20 and hold back the development of CF! Main index:
http://www.uic.com.au/nip.htm<= /FONT>


Having seen this earlier posting as a segue - in a = continuing=20 multi-year effort to kluge together, with limited resources, a=20 much-improved reactor concept - really a pre-design based on achievable = goals -=20 I had updated some past posts with the following. But, alas, just = noticed the=20 fact that it was never sent (apparently)... or at least didn't show up = in the=20 archives. Maybe a "carnivore" captured it  ;-) 

This = kind of=20 subject matter is of limited interest to current vortex posters, except = for RvS=20 it seems, but the archives will preserve it for a few years, and if it = turns out=20 that there is anything valid or pertinent in it, then hopefully it = may=20 serve as a seed for future development. It makes more sense than = anything=20 currently on the scene (if I do say so myself) and much more detail is = available=20 (for the cost of a modest consulting contract).

The scheme is to = use an=20 intense "independent" neutron source as a "substitute accelerator" for a = variant=20 of the Rubbia-type plan. Dr. Carlo Rubbia is a famous guy at CERN, but = basically=20 an idiot when it comes to putting together a cost-effective strategy for = an=20 advanced reactor that can burn its own waste. However he did popularize = the=20 base-concept, and deserves some mention for that - even as deficient as = his=20 design is/was.

Rubbia designed an integrated accelerator-driven = power=20 reactor AND waste clean-up unit, which is a great idea... but...stops = far short=20 of optimum, and in this present alternative design, one could save = $500=20 million in capital cost by ditching the accelerator, another $200 = million by=20 using an unpressurized reactor scheme, with a natural Uranium "primary" = unit,=20 and the waste in a "secondary" adjoining unit - and another = approximately $2=20 billion by making it modular and "mass-produced" (a few hundred to a = thousand=20 units per year).
 
This is no joke - approximately $2 billion of the cost of any = planned or=20 recent-past nuclear plant in the USA goes (went) to bankers - as it = is the=20 result of interest payments combined with very long construction timing = -=20 one-off as the Brits like to say. That is now part of an entrenched = political=20 reality. Kind of "Bohemian," one might suggest. But it does = not "need"=20 to be that way.
 
All of this can change with a number of identical,=20 mass-produced, modular rail or ship-mounted units, that are sold as = turnkey=20 packages. It takes 10-20 modular units for a normal plant. Obviously one = cannot=20 rail-mount either a proton accelerator of a steam plant. Those eggheads = at CERN=20 may know their nucleonics down to the last quark, but they have no = real-world=20 idea of how and why low capital costs, and modularity are extremely = important in the commercial arena.

My preferred source for robust = neutrons is/was a small aqueous homogeneous reactor (basketball-sized) = using=20 heavy water and a small amount of dissolved uranium nitride. Here you = have a=20 $50,000 replacement for a $500 million mile-long accelerator. Yes, you = will need=20 several for comparative purposes - as we are talking about smaller, = modular=20 units rather than a single large complicated plant.

"Free" = neutrons are -=20 pound for pound, among the most valuable commodities on earth (even if = you can=20 only weigh them theoretically). There is no cheaper way to produce them = in a=20 fairly intense flux (10^12 per cm^3) than in the homogeneous reactor. It = is=20 super-safe even if it does require a few kilograms of highly enriched = fuel.=20 There are ways to eliminate the proliferation risk of this. The = larger-reactor=20 itself is a breeder, and with ongoing partial-reprocessing, so that the = initial=20 loading of both the homogeneous core and the much larger natural U = blanket is=20 sufficient for a 50 year life. It is not that there is no refueling - = there is=20 in fact continuous refueling and reprocessing. But the difference is = that all=20 the fuel which is needed for 50 years is included at the outset. Burnup = is=20 90%. All waste which is not removed in the minimal ongoing=20 reprocessing, is burned in situ.

With a cheap source of "makeup" = neutrons=20 - to be employed in smallish, mass-produced rail-mounted subcritical = reactor of=20 about 50 MW each, fueled by natural uranium - there is a lot of = borrowing of=20 other concepts... so there is similarity here to the CANDU or newer = ACR700 -=20 which designs are a pressurized plumbing nightmare, and do not get the = full=20 benefit of an extremely "cheap" source of neutrons - although the worst = kept=20 secret in nuclear engineering is that there is a huge anomaly in how = many "free"=20 neutrons one gets from a deuterium moderator.
 
Here, the central core contains heavy water, a few Kg of dissolved=20 U-nitride and a duct to a very small deuteron accelerator - used for = startup=20 only. Both the core and blanket are nominally = subcritical.  And after=20 a threshold flux has been initiated, and a magnetic field is imposed, = then both=20 go critical, whereas neither will do it alone and without the magnetic=20 field.
 
There is zero meltdown or runaway risk - as a homogeneous reactor = is=20 inherently safe and the heavy water will boil away quickly if the flux = becomes=20 too high. The flux is made asymmetrical and shifted outside the central = core and=20 into the U-carbide blanket by the clever use of magnetics. The rest = of that=20 part is proprietary, as is the direct conversion scheme. Both have been = hinted=20 at in the literature, but no-one has apparently put it all together in a = hybrid=20 package.

A total redesign, with an eye towards smaller, cheaper, = safer,=20 and no-steam (direct electrical conversion) could have be done here in = the USA=20 anytime in the past two decades, were it not for the = special interests of=20 the "club" dominated by the General Electric Company, which is second to = only=20 Halliburton-Big-Oil in political clout (and has been for 60 years = previously).=20 We have billions of dollars of sunk cost in a=20 military-focused infrastructure... consisting of antiquated = dangerous=20 technology, based on using enriched fuel at low burn-up - totally = irresponsible=20 - and this is dependent on a highly subsidized military use of=20 enriched-fuel. The club is locked-in by these past errors. All of which = was=20 instigated by GE and Westinghouse and their minions at DoE and DoD - and = with=20 little willingness to change things at the highest level.
 
It is a source of amazement that some European country has not = stepped-in=20 with a better answer, but the unnecessary baggage and political problems = for=20 nuclear energy are even more severe there. France and England have their = own=20 special interests, and Germany is the only other country with enough=20 "brain-power" to pull it off - but they have different political hurtles = to=20 overcome and a strong and mis-informed green party. China is developing = the=20 brain-power and probably can do this in the next generation - 2020 and = beyond.=20 For now, it is all sloshing around in the muck of special interest=20 politics.

There is a most important and "telling" but also = "dated" expose=20 online "The Bohemian Grove and The Nuclear Weapons Industry" originally=20 published in 1987, and much information in the article is not current so = far as=20 many of the names have changed.
 
But the point of the article is even more disturbing now than then, = because=20 this high-level "club" influence in greater in Washington now than = at any=20 point in the post-war history. Sure, the positions in the = larger=20 "club-of clubs" consisting of representative of skull-and-X +bohemian = +Texas=20 oilers + whatever.... have changed, some individuals named have = died, and=20 the status of many facilities has (nominally) changed, and Halliburton = has=20 entered the club in a big way. Otherwise - this is our big national = problem with=20 going nuclear - special interests.
 
Otherwise, many acceptable and ecologically sound answers have been = out-there for some time (although none of them make as much sense = - in an=20 integrated package - as does this one ;-)
 
Jones
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0085_01C5E058.B0BD5870-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 3 09:53:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA3HqlAp013686; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 09:53:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA3HqhF7013628; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 09:52:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 09:52:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=KYgXJzuNlbo5N0xbLKHwblcp1XCtphyPHokQumjSKeqKNuxmPrWEaDEblLpErK+3; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:User-Agent:References:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Disposition:Message-Id:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: ISS Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 13:05:59 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <200511022230.58702.rockcast@earthlink.net> <4369AB2B.9090102@iinet.net.au> In-Reply-To: <4369AB2B.9090102 iinet.net.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200511031306.00307.rockcast earthlink.net> X-ELNK-Trace: 161777525297e62b1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79528bda65e8e7edf50c68518bb8568c59350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 71.115.182.204 Resent-Message-ID: <6fT1m.A.3UD.q5kaDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64265 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thursday 03 November 2005 01:16, Wesley Bruce wrote: > That's the key. JP aerospace to orbit; people and supplies. A Heavy lift > craft for anything bigger. Podkletnov's device could be made into a > reactionless drive if we can get reliable mass production of his disks > and steady high voltage power supply. I'm in corrispondance with Dr > Podklenov. Fission power and may be useful but fission rockets are out > of date we have faster plasma drives with higher Isp. See > http://www.ess.washington.edu/Space/propulsion.html and > http://prl.anu.edu.au/SP3/research/HDLT > We don't realy needed big ships we can use a 200 m tether to bind the > ship and its spent booster togeather to make a thing that spins at 1 > Rpm. We get adequate gravity for the crew. If Dr Podkletnov's disks are > what I think they are then we can stack them for both propulsion and > gravity and fly anywhere in a few days. > Again I state that big ships are necessary for morale, not to mention all the extra capability that they can afford. Mission flexibility would be greatly enhanced by a 'solar system exploration ship' that can go anywhere in the solar system. Without getting into the fuel debate, Podkletnoff's disks if stacked with some distance between them and multiple stacks show potential for inertial damping. Since according to Dr Ning Li we are talking about 'electrogravity', a kind of right hand rule/left hand rule intersection of electrical and magnetic forces to obtain a gravitational force at sufficient energies amongst themselves, then living between the stacks will afford the ability to damp the acceleration of propulsion drives capable of multiple 'g' forces. Think about how a motor works with reverse and forward EMF. ElectGrav flow, or EG flow should be no different. And whilst we think about that one lets chew on a new 'standard model' not based on 9 or 16 fundamentals, but realize the possibility of other fundamentals present in a now unknown new standard model 'cube' or hypecube instead of a square.....27 instead of 9 and 256 instead of 16. Think about it! Advanced societies that have observed us derive their abilities from ....somewhere! Back to inertial damping. This would free us from being shackled to limited 'g' force tolerance in manned craft if the above were feasable now or in the future. Dr Li, I understand, may have returned to China. If she has, it won't be the first lost opportunity because of short sightedness. The ghost of Dr Hsein stalks the forwardlooking scientific establishment of that land, and while some of their technology may have been 'borrowed' from the west, I feel that much of it will prove to be their very own. Dr Li sought to use superconducting rotations at the quantum level in her implementation of Dr Podkletnoff's device. If this is so, the increase in effectiveness may be related to the relation of particle size to intensity and speed of ordinary chemical reactions. Makes sense if one views the universe in all its levels as a kind of giant fractal. Standing Bear copyright 2005 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 3 10:36:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA3IZYvf008776; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 10:35:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA3IZJ0x008623; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 10:35:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 10:35:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=dTDtVCjlqjsyC+zg8Cm1vcq4spsuiH7TQ48EKYMObMN4Fh1DrLNHM4lQqNCHTpD3; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:User-Agent:References:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Disposition:Message-Id:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: ISS Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 13:48:29 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <43698D86.9010203@iinet.net.au> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200511031348.29717.rockcast earthlink.net> X-ELNK-Trace: 161777525297e62b1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec799ee86b69bf8b67a226cca175b5f9f47d350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 71.115.182.204 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id jA3IYtJT008464 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64266 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thursday 03 November 2005 01:29, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to Wesley Bruce's message of Thu, 03 Nov 2005 15:09:42 > +1100: > Hi, > [snip] > > >Firstly the ISS is the dry dock not the ship. It is actually doing quite > >a lot of quiet science; learning to live in space *was* the original > >objective. > >The ISS would not survive a trip to Mars. It would not survive the > >required acceleration, > > I think that if you put the modules in line, rather than in their > current configuration, it wouldn't have any problem with the > acceleration. However I'm more curious about how long the trip > would take using a nuclear reactor and an ion engine at low > acceleration as opposed to the high acceleration chemical thruster > you appear to be considering. > > >and it would not carry enough supplys to make the > >round trip of three to five years. > > It need not be the whole ship. > > >About 30% of its mass would not be > >required on a trip to Mars but can't be removed. > > What mass would that be, and why can't it be removed? > > >I'm in the Australian > >Mars society and the National space society NSS. We're doing the design > >work that Nasa keeps claiming the credit for. > > Excellent, then you should be able to answer all my questions! :) > > >Space exploration would be simpler if we had the heavy lift craft the > >National Space Society NSS has been talking about for years and Nasa has > >just announced it now will slowly design and build the thing./ /That's > >called reinventing the wheel; given that volunteers in the NSS did a > >full design a decade a go. The heavy lift ship could lift the remaining > >ISS components in two shots. It can lift ~100 tons. We could do one lift > >if all the bits fitted in one bundle but they don't. *Dou!* > > What's the lifting capacity of the Russian's largest rocket? > [snip] > > > * An Orbiting network of data relay sats and navigation beacons. > > Mars Net. It's been designed awaiting funds. This means that a > > How many satellites are already in Mars orbit, and is there any > reason they can't talk to one another, and thus be used as relay > satellites? I know there is at least one, if you count the trip > vessel as a second, then you need only one other small satellite > to form a triangle, and that could be taken along on the trip. > > > crew or robot on Mars can call earth at any time from anywhere on > > Mars and no-one can get lost. It also means a team on Mars can > > teleoperate a robot anywhere on the planet in real time at any > > time. > > > >We have 3 fission options. Pebble bed, a and > > neutron bombarded isotops. That's safer than EVA's. > > By the time this mission gets off the ground, you may have a CF > option as well. BTW I don't think the Hafnium reactor is for real. > Perhaps you could explain the "neutron bombarded isotopes" - where > do the neutrons come from? Also, if by "Hafnium reactor" you are > referring to Hf-178, then that's not really a fission option. > [snip] > > > * Mars fuel plant launch. A robot rover equipped unmanned mars > > lander that makes fuel from Martian atmosphere. Powered by some > > kind of reactor. Cold fusion would be nice. We need 50 kw. > > Why not land the reactor portion of the main ship on Mars? Then > you can use the power from the main reactor to create all the fuel > you need in a short period of time. It would save the whole fuel > plant trip. It could also make enough fuel for it's own launch for > the return trip. The fuel plant could be taken along on the main > ship. Might be better than landing only to discover that the > previous fuel plant mission didn't quite work, and you now have no > way of getting back. If the crew + fuel plant landing doesn't > work, then the crew are probably dead, and not very interested in > coming back anyway. > [snip] > > > * Permanent base, probably part underground, part in multistory > > buildings and part in modular glass houses. It needs to be placed > > near a multi-ton water ice deposit. Pressure domes, farm designs > > and other system are either in testing or on the drawing board. > > Given that the Martian atmosphere is so thin, wouldn't you expect > the radiation hazard on the surface to be greater than on Earth? > If so, can you really afford to have part of it in a multi-story > building? (or is that just for the farms?) > (Do the current Mars rovers have radiation detectors on board?) > [snip] > BTW it might be an idea to have 2 smaller reactors rather than 1 > large one. Then one can be left in orbit, while one lands. On the > trips out and back, both can be used in tandem. > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > Competition provides the motivation, > Cooperation provides the means. I hope all of our suggestions don't eventually prove to be just academic. I just read an interview that the good people at nuclearspace.com had with some government agencies: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote from webpage--   NASA's Project Prometheus is in partnership with the Department of Energy's Office of Naval Reactors (DOE-NR) within the National Nuclear Security Administration (NNSA) to develop a space nuclear reactor for use in future robotic exploration activities. The Office of Naval Reactors (NR) is a joint Navy-DOE organization having responsibility and authority in both agencies. The Secretary of Energy assigned NR to partner with NASA in support of Project Prometheus solely as a DOE civilian project.   We made an inquiry over current status in efforts to build a space reactor, nuclearspace.com (NS) contributors posed questions to the agency responsible for building a premier space nuclear reactor. DOE-NNSA/NR Public Affairs Officer, Kevin Davis declined an NS phone interview request, but in a written response to the following questions posed by NS contributors Ty Moore, Jaro Franta and Bruce Behrhorst responded; excerpt of text below...... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- there followed a long obviousely scripted 'interview'. All of the 'questions' appear to have been required to have prior submission and approval, and all the answers appear to be direct from the agencies public relations branch after being run through their general legal counsel. As such, most of the questions are ducked and evaded by the interviewee, who appears to sound like a classic broken record much of the time. The interviewee interjects 'probable lunar mission' or words to that effect into many of the questions that the agency did consent to have presented; and then gives a standard boiler plate denial of a 'lunar mission' over and over again. This is akin to the old rhetorical game of setting up a 'straw man' and knocking him down. The conclusions reached by NuclearSpace at the end were pessimistic about our prospects and our intents concerning realistic space exporation. I tend to agree with NuclearSpace in this, and wonder if the present administration only wants the programs around with minimum funding to use as photo ops and to show that it is 'doing something'. Even if it is wrong! It is evidently not now percieved in the national interest to invest seriousely in space, really. If so all our suggestions to this present administration are going to be ignored until circumstances change. Face it, present so called plans involve using some nebulous 'appolo' capsule of very small size considering what might have to be done, and chemical rockets all the way. No repair capability! If a micrometeoroid holes a tank and fuel is lost, too bad! And if a crew is lost...throw up ones hands and give up like the French in 1940.....as if this is the aim all along. But then the chem ships will use a lot of petrol, happily sold to the government by the oil and oil service people now primarily contracting in Iraq and the administration high official with well known connections to that company and its corporate child there with the three letters in its name. The Russians, God bless 'em, have a better vision. The Russian President said as much last March with an appeal for nuclear propulsion. Knowing they lack funds to do it themselves, the Russians appealed then for international cooperation on a joint venture or a series of them in order to go to Mars by 2017. The Europeans appear to be listening. They are joining with them to buy the Kliper. That little ship is 'cute', and it may prove quite practical. If some of the above other technologies prove viable, it can be a platform for a real shuttle all by itself. The Chinese may be listening as well. They have sought out the Russians for some close and secret agreements in recent months, many of which involve technology transfers and weapons system purchases. The Chinese 'Taikonaut' crew that just returned from orbit left behind a mystery satellite that they are NOT talking about. It is no secret that the Chinese have military interests in space. After all, it is the high ground. Look what we did to Iraq with just photos of 'insane hoosain's sites. For now we seem to have lost our ambition for space in a self fulfilling civil service miasma of paperwork and 'mission-plans' with open ended timelines extending to infinity, productive of nothing but 'cushy' retirements for political hacks given GS-18 jobs for hatchet jobs done elsewhere. And 'empire builders' that the civil list is known to be full of! Such was our military-political establishment in 1957 with regard to space. ---- Then came Sputnik! ------- Only this 'Sputnik' may be a little larger! And a little meaner! And have a Chinese name! And our government will act with its typical 'surprise'...... .........and the spin doctors will have another 'science gap'! Standing Bear We will go to space! The only question us under what conditions! It IS in our national vital interest whether we effectively realize it or not! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 3 11:12:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA3JCEh4001366; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 11:12:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA3JCBdL001353; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 11:12:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 11:12:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=hW03wjR0tFFMlXIvr5Z6QatJOnzZPPus1BJZifnd86KiOVcMrt0skhNpAn6PRJrE; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <411-220051143181048330 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Small Nuclear Power Reactors Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 12:10:49 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940802a909e6a2aeaeed505a8180b8ff220350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.120.192 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64267 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Heck Jones, You left out using the neutrons bled off through a Beryllium pipe and fed to a Liquid Boron -10 Hydride (Borane) thrust nozzle for "Fission Drive" spacecraft propulsion. Neutron + Boron-10 (~ 10,500 Barns) + Hx ----> He4 + Li-7 + Hx =3.4 MeV (Propellents) Specific Impulse from the reaction nozzle. Better than an Ion Drive for the long haul. Fred Edited for Brevity. :-) ----- Original Message ----- From: Jones Beene To: vortex-L eskimo.com Sent: 11/3/05 11:27:21 AM Subject: Re: Small Nuclear Power Reactors Some time ago Jed Rothwell posted the original message: "All kinds of interesting stuff has been added to this UIC web site lately. It is impressive. Almost too impressive; I fear they might succeed and hold back the development of CF! Main index: http://www.uic.com.au/nip.htm My preferred source for robust neutrons is/was a small aqueous homogeneous reactor (basketball-sized) using heavy water and a small amount of dissolved uranium nitride. Here you have a $50,000 replacement for a $500 million mile-long accelerator. Yes, you will need several for comparative purposes - as we are talking about smaller, modular units rather than a single large complicated plant. There is no cheaper way to produce them in a fairly intense flux (10^12 per cm^3) than in the homogeneous reactor. It is super-safe even if it does require a few kilograms of highly enriched fuel. There are ways to eliminate the proliferation risk of this. The larger-reactor itself is a breeder, and with ongoing partial-reprocessing, so that the initial loading of both the homogeneous core and the much larger natural U blanket is sufficient for a 50 year life. It is not that there is no refueling - there is in fact continuous refueling and reprocessing. But the difference is that all the fuel which is needed for 50 years is included at the outset. Burnup is 90%. All waste which is not removed in the minimal ongoing reprocessing, is burned in situ. With a cheap source of "makeup" neutrons - to be employed in smallish, mass-produced rail-mounted subcritical reactor of about 50 MW each, fueled by natural uranium - there is a lot of borrowing of other concepts... so there is similarity here to the CANDU or newer ACR700 - which designs are a pressurized plumbing nightmare, and do not get the full benefit of an extremely "cheap" source of neutrons - although the worst kept secret in nuclear engineering is that there is a huge anomaly in how many "free" neutrons one gets from a deuterium moderator. Jones ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Heck Jones,
 
You left out using the neutrons bled off through a Beryllium pipe and
fed to a Liquid Boron -10 Hydride (Borane) thrust nozzle
for "Fission Drive" spacecraft propulsion.
 
Neutron + Boron-10  (~ 10,500 Barns) + Hx  ----> He4 + Li-7 + Hx =3.4 MeV (Propellents)
 
Specific Impulse from the reaction nozzle. Better than an Ion Drive for the long haul.
 
Fred
 
Edited for Brevity.   :-)
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 11/3/05 11:27:21 AM
Subject: Re: Small Nuclear Power Reactors

Some time ago Jed Rothwell posted the original message:

"All kinds of interesting stuff has been added to this UIC web site lately. It is impressive. Almost too impressive; I fear they might succeed and hold back the development of CF! Main index:
http://www.uic.com.au/nip.htm

My preferred source for robust neutrons is/was a small aqueous homogeneous reactor (basketball-sized) using heavy water and a small amount of dissolved uranium nitride. Here you have a $50,000 replacement for a $500 million mile-long accelerator. Yes, you will need several for comparative purposes - as we are talking about smaller, modular units rather than a single large complicated plant.

There is no cheaper way to produce them in a fairly intense flux (10^12 per cm^3) than in the homogeneous reactor. It is super-safe even if it does require a few kilograms of highly enriched fuel. There are ways to eliminate the proliferation risk of this. The larger-reactor itself is a breeder, and with ongoing partial-reprocessing, so that the initial loading of both the homogeneous core and the much larger natural U blanket is sufficient for a 50 year life. It is not that there is no refueling - there is in fact continuous refueling and reprocessing. But the difference is that all the fuel which is needed for 50 years is included at the outset. Burnup is 90%. All waste which is not removed in the minimal ongoing reprocessing, is burned in situ.

With a cheap source of "makeup" neutrons - to be employed in smallish, mass-produced rail-mounted subcritical reactor of about 50 MW each, fueled by natural uranium - there is a lot of borrowing of other concepts... so there is similarity here to the CANDU or newer ACR700 - which designs are a pressurized plumbing nightmare, and do not get the full benefit of an extremely "cheap" source of neutrons - although the worst kept secret in nuclear engineering is that there is a huge anomaly in how many "free" neutrons one gets from a deuterium moderator.
 
 
Jones
 
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 3 11:31:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA3JUnDS009893; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 11:31:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA3JUhsk009713; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 11:30:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 11:30:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: "Rick Monteverde" To: Subject: RE: Evolution and race Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 09:29:59 -1000 Message-ID: <004e01c5e0ac$ffa4bbf0$d901a8c0 dtqf101> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_004F_01C5E059.2DF8ABF0" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 In-Reply-To: <255.1e81aa.309bbc34 aol.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - server26.fastbighost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - highsurf.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64269 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_004F_01C5E059.2DF8ABF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You failed to mention Reptoids. It's like, a Lizzie can't catch a break around here any more... -----Original Message----- From: ThomasClark123 aol.com [mailto:ThomasClark123@aol.com] Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 9:17 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com; A-albionic_Subscription@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Evolution and race In a message dated 10/28/2005 11:38:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, rockcast earthlink.net writes: The Rig Vedas speak of visitors to our world as well. Not 'gods', but visitors. Standing Bear Garrison Keeler claims ------=_NextPart_000_004F_01C5E059.2DF8ABF0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
You failed to mention Reptoids.=20
 
It's like, a Lizzie can't catch a = break=20 around here any more...
-----Original Message-----
From: = ThomasClark123 aol.com=20 [mailto:ThomasClark123 aol.com]
Sent: Thursday, November = 03, 2005=20 9:17 AM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com;=20 A-albionic_Subscription yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: = Evolution and=20 race

In a message dated 10/28/2005 11:38:57 PM Eastern Standard Time,=20 rockcast earthlink.net writes:
The=20 Rig Vedas speak of visitors to our world as well.  Not 'gods',=20 but
visitors.

Standing Bear
Garrison Keeler claims  <SNIP> 
------=_NextPart_000_004F_01C5E059.2DF8ABF0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 3 11:39:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA3JdFnB014268; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 11:39:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA3Jd3Rj014189; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 11:39:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 11:39:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20051103193833835.CC018340023B mwinf3116.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20051103193834.009b3dd0 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 19:38:34 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: OT: Sony is in the Virus business Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64270 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:47 am 03/11/2005 -0700, Ron wrote: > Here's a link to a short news story: > > http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/1 > 1/02/AR2005110202362.html > > And for the geeks out there, here's the looooong story: > > http://www.sysinternals.com/blog/2005/10/sony-rootkits-and- > digital-rights.html Thanks for those fascinating links Ron. What an animal - to manage dissecting that rootkit. Following all the fascinating links, as one does with such interesting material, I came across this marvellous transcript of a Microsoft Research DRM talk - http://www.dashes.com/anil/stuff/doctorow-drm-ms.html - which starts off with the promising line "Greetings fellow pirates! Arrrrr!" Cheers, Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 3 12:01:54 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA3K11an029401; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 12:01:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA3K0mkS029049; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 12:00:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 12:00:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00c601c5e0b1$318dffb0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <411-220051143181048330 earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Small Nuclear Power Reactors Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 12:00:08 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00C3_01C5E06E.22F604E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64273 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00C3_01C5E06E.22F604E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Fred's comment is serious, and few today realize that 50 years ago, when = nuclear-powered rockets were being conceived and tested, borane was = given consideration as a fuel - both conventional, and as pumped through = a high flux reactor. The High Energy Fuels - HEF Program was began in 1956 - a year before = the launch of Sputnik (we knew the Russians were coming) and it was the = last of several secret military programs to use boron-hydride fuels for = rockets.=20 Boranes are toxic - similar to cyanide - and if not completely combusted = (or nuked to Li) then you will risk poisoning the ground crew and/or the = sheep and armadillos downwind ...=20 ...however?? if you can go fully robotic, and blast-off from a specially = redesigned aircraft carrier, in the middle of nowhere, and with every = human safely below deck... hmmm... Hey if you are going to use a minimally shielded nuclear reactor anyway = - it is pretty senseless to pump liquid hydrogen through it, for then = you get only a few eV gain per molecule... when borane will cut down on = the fuel requirement by a huge margin. It will not be the several = million-to-one margin, as it appears on paper - as you need to buffer = the borane, but still... I can imagine a carrier launched rocket-plane = (detachable wings) capable of inter-planetary distances... a lot further = than the "Twenty-Mule Team" but say, that is a catchy name for it. After a few weeks, the un-nuked boranes and lithium compounds are = decomposed in the ocean (causing an alga bloom?) and no one is the = wiser? ...we may see this technology come around again in the future = (heck, it may already be in progress to launch really big spy satellites = on the cheap) but it will probably be (or intended to be) as "black" if = not even more secret, than the HEF.=20 You left out using the neutrons bled off through a Beryllium pipe and=20 fed to a Liquid Boron -10 Hydride (Borane) thrust nozzle for "Fission Drive" spacecraft propulsion.=20 Neutron + Boron-10 (~ 10,500 Barns) + Hx ----> He4 + Li-7 + Hx = =3D3.4 MeV (Propellents)=20 Specific Impulse from the reaction nozzle. Better than an Ion Drive = for the long haul. Fred ------=_NextPart_000_00C3_01C5E06E.22F604E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Fred's comment is serious, and few today realize = that 50=20 years ago, when nuclear-powered rockets were being conceived and tested, = borane=20 was given consideration as a fuel - both conventional, and as pumped = through a=20 high flux reactor.
 
The High Energy Fuels - HEF Program was began in 1956 - a = year before=20 the launch of Sputnik (we knew the Russians were coming) and it was = the=20 last of several secret military programs to use boron-hydride fuels for = rockets.=20
 
Boranes are toxic - similar to cyanide - and if = not=20 completely combusted (or nuked to Li) then you will risk poisoning the = ground=20 crew and/or the sheep and armadillos downwind ...
 
...however?? if you can go fully robotic, and = blast-off=20 from a specially redesigned aircraft carrier, in the middle of = nowhere, and=20 with every human safely below deck... hmmm...
 
Hey if you are going to use a minimally = shielded=20 nuclear reactor anyway - it is pretty senseless to pump liquid hydrogen = through=20 it, for then you get only a few eV gain per molecule... when borane will = cut=20 down on the fuel requirement by a huge margin. It will not be the = several=20 million-to-one margin, as it appears on paper - as you need to buffer = the=20 borane, but still...  I can imagine a carrier launched rocket-plane = (detachable wings) capable of inter-planetary distances... a lot further = than=20 the "Twenty-Mule Team" but say, that is a catchy name for = it.
 
After a few weeks, the un-nuked boranes and = lithium=20 compounds are decomposed in the ocean (causing an alga bloom?) and no = one is the=20 wiser?  ...we may see this technology = come around=20 again in the future (heck, it may already be in progress to launch = really big=20 spy satellites on the cheap) but it will probably be (or intended to be) = as=20 "black" if not even more secret, than the HEF.
 
 
You left out using the neutrons bled off through a Beryllium pipe = and=20
fed to a Liquid Boron -10 Hydride (Borane) thrust nozzle
for "Fission Drive" spacecraft propulsion.
 
Neutron + Boron-10  (~ 10,500 Barns) + Hx  ----> He4 = +=20 Li-7 + Hx =3D3.4 MeV (Propellents)
 
Specific Impulse from the reaction nozzle. Better than an Ion = Drive for=20 the long haul.
 
Fred
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_00C3_01C5E06E.22F604E0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 3 12:22:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA3KLpWD018060; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 12:22:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA3KLo7t018049; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 12:21:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 12:21:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051103151002.04ec4b70 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 15:20:36 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Small Nuclear Power Reactors In-Reply-To: <00c601c5e0b1$318dffb0$6401a8c0 NuDell> References: <411-220051143181048330 earthlink.net> <00c601c5e0b1$318dffb0$6401a8c0 NuDell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64275 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >...however?? if you can go fully robotic, and blast-off from a specially >redesigned aircraft carrier, in the middle of nowhere, and with every >human safely below deck... hmmm... There is not the slightest chance anything like this would be allowed in today's world. This is not 1950. Perhaps it should be allowed. Perhaps concern over the environment has been carried to extremes in some cases. However, in general, I think we still need much more protection than we have, and much more conservation, not less. I think large flying fission reactors of any sort are utterly out of the question. As for space exploration, from earth-to-orbit the only cost-efficient, sensible approach appears to be the space elevator. A space elevator would eventually give us the ability to lift millions of tons of fabricated equipment to orbit, and to assemble spaceships there. Even with chemical fuel, this will open the entire solar system to us. (But something like lunar helium-3 would probably be a better choice.) An elevator would be even be superior to a CF powered earth-to-space vehicle. Japanese national television recently had a short news special about future technology expected by the year 2050. The space elevator was prominently featured. Many people are taking this idea seriously. I will grant, the core technology has not been invented yet, but we are closer to it than we are to something like Bush's plan to explore Mars. It would cost far less than today's space shuttle program or the ISS. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 3 11:18:21 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA3JHhYP003839; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 11:17:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA3JHenm003795; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 11:17:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 11:17:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: ThomasClark123 aol.com Message-ID: <255.1e81aa.309bbc34 aol.com> Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 14:17:08 EST Subject: Re: Evolution and race To: vortex-l eskimo.com, A-albionic_Subscription@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1131045428" X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5039 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64268 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friendsD Status: RO X-Status: -------------------------------1131045428 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/28/2005 11:38:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, rockcast earthlink.net writes: The Rig Vedas speak of visitors to our world as well. Not 'gods', but visitors. Standing Bear Garrison Keeler claims that the garden of Eden and the Adam and Eve of the bible occurred near California and not in the Middle East and they were not related to apes and have no ape genes in them since they were genetically engineered by star visitors. The wife that Adam had before Eve called Lilith allegedly came from the Amazon region near Mexico. Some of the bible clans then relocated to Minnesota to become the Norse tribes after the fall of Adam and Eve. Later the Norse and Aryan tribes migrated to Europe and the Russia's, and then to India to mix with the Black Africans living in India to form the Indian races. Arabian scientists have found giant skeletons in the Middle East of the Giants spoken of in the bible but this data is kept hidden from popular science text books on evolution theory. Roman coins, and Celtic ruins have been found in Minnesota and Michigan to show that advanced Celtic and roman societies existed in the Americas thousands of years ago, which is also kept out of popular evolution text books to hide the evolution evidence of the Celtic races not related to apes. Genetic experts hide and repress all evidence of genes and persons not related to the ape clans on Earth to not only hide the evidence of Star Visitors living amongst us but to also hide evidence of advanced space age societies that existed on Earth long before the apes evolved and who still live in the inner hollow Earth today who genetically engineered some of us. Someone told me that persons related to the Bear Clans came from other planets than Earth since Bears were imported to Earth by star visitors. Baron Von Volsung, http://www.rhfweb.com/baron, Email: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html President Thomas D. Clark, Email: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html, Personal Web Page: http://www.rhfweb.com/personal New Age Production's Inc., http://www.rhfweb.com/newage Star Haven Community Services, at http://www.rhfweb.com/sh Radiation Health Foundation Trust at http://www.rhfweb.com/ Making a difference one person at a time Get informed. Inform others. -------------------------------1131045428 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In a message dated 10/28/2005 11:38:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, rockca= st earthlink.net writes:
The Rig Vedas speak of visitors to our world a= s well.  Not 'gods', but
visitors.

Standing Bear
Garrison Keeler claims that the garden of Eden and the Adam and Eve of=20= the bible occurred near California and not in the Middle East and they = were not related to apes and have no ape genes in them since they were genet= ically engineered by star visitors.  The wife that Adam had before Eve=20= called Lilith allegedly came from the Amazon region near Mexico. =20= Some of the bible clans then relocated to Minnesota to become the Norse trib= es after the fall of Adam and Eve.  Later the Norse and Aryan trib= es migrated to Europe and the Russia's, and then to India to mix w= ith the Black Africans living in India to form the Indian races.  = Arabian scientists have found giant skeletons in the Middle East of the Gia= nts spoken of in the bible but this data is kept hidden from popular science= text books on evolution theory.  Roman coins, and Celtic ruins have be= en found in Minnesota and Michigan to show that advanced Celtic and roman so= cieties existed in the Americas thousands of years ago, which is also kept o= ut of popular evolution text books to hide the evolution evidence of the Cel= tic races not related to apes.  Genetic experts hide and repress all ev= idence of genes and persons not related to the ape clans on Earth to not onl= y hide the evidence of Star Visitors living amongst us but to also hide evid= ence of advanced space age societies that existed on Earth long before the a= pes evolved and who still live in the inner hollow Earth today who genetical= ly engineered some of us.  Someone told me that persons related to the=20= Bear Clans came from other planets than Earth since Bears were imported to E= arth by star visitors.
 
Baron Von Volsung, http://www.rhfweb.com/baron, Email: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html
President Thomas D. Clark,= Email: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html,
Pers= onal Web Page: http://www.rhfweb.com/personal
New Age Productio= n's Inc., http://www.rhfweb.com/newage
Star Haven Community Service= s, at = http://www.rhfweb.com/sh
Radiation Health Foundation Trust at http://www.rhfweb= .com/

Making a difference one person at a time
Get informed= . Inform others.
-------------------------------1131045428-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 3 11:40:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA3Jdh79014526; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 11:39:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA3JdeN8014498; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 11:39:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 11:39:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: ThomasClark123 aol.com Message-ID: <100.1feb6875.309bc169 aol.com> Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 14:39:21 EST Subject: Re: Evolution and race To: vortex-l eskimo.com, A-albionic_Subscription@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1131046760" X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5039 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: <0cO1T.A.biD.7dmaDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64271 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friendsD Status: O X-Status: -------------------------------1131046760 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/3/2005 2:31:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, rick highsurf.com writes: You failed to mention Reptoids. It's like, a Lizzie can't catch a break around here any more... The wife Adam had before Eve called Lilith was allegedly from the Snake or reptoid Clans as were many Amazon Women in the Amazon region near California and Mexico. The children of Posiedon that lived on Atlantis were alegedly related to the Bull, Fish, Bird, and Dragon clans. -------------------------------1131046760 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In a message dated 11/3/2005 2:31:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, rick hig= hsurf.com writes:
You failed= to mention Reptoids.
 
It's like,= a Lizzie can't catch a break around here any more...
The wife Adam had before Eve called Lilith was allegedly from the Snake= or reptoid Clans as were many Amazon Women in the Amazon region near Califo= rnia and Mexico. The children of Posiedon that lived on Atlantis were a= legedly related to the Bull, Fish, Bird, and Dragon clans. 
= -------------------------------1131046760-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 3 11:56:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA3Ju3gp026060; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 11:56:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA3JtwOD025985; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 11:55:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 11:55:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: ThomasClark123 aol.com Message-ID: <6b.5105106a.309bc4de aol.com> Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 14:54:06 EST Subject: Re: [A-albionic_Subscription] Re: Electrostatic Hover Cars To: A-albionic_Subscription yahoogroups.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1131047646" X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5039 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64272 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friendsD Status: O X-Status: -------------------------------1131047646 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/27/2005 2:55:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, llow mco.edu writes: More on J. Searl's devices and other topics are contained in articles at The Institute for New Energy website: http://www.padrak.com/ine/ Thanks for the links on the Searl engine. I read in the Scalar Waves book by Konstantine Meyl, that the Searl Engines captured and used neutrino energies that come form the sun. Some of the Searl tiny flying saucers which went out of control flew directly into the sun since they followed the neutrinos to the source in the sun. The sun being a black whole that leads to the center of the universe collects and resonates with neutrinos from the other stars at the center of the Universe. Ships made of light energy by means of tesla teleportation coils which transmute matter into light as in the Philadelphia experiment, can slip through the black whole in the sun to travel to the center of the universe and other star systems by means of the solar star network. Information made of light energy can also be transmitted between the universal solar star network from any sun to the center of the universe to any other sun. Traveling through the sun's black whole along the energy rifts and around energy vortexes that lead to other places in the universe in the 4th dimension can be dangerous since it is alleged that only machines or persons specially trained with brains genetically engineered to see the energy rifts in the 4th dimension may navigates ships safely. Baron Von Volsung, http://www.rhfweb.com/baron, Email: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html President Thomas D. Clark, Email: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html, Personal Web Page: http://www.rhfweb.com/personal New Age Production's Inc., http://www.rhfweb.com/newage Star Haven Community Services, at http://www.rhfweb.com/sh Radiation Health Foundation Trust at http://www.rhfweb.com/ Making a difference one person at a time Get informed. Inform others. -------------------------------1131047646 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In a message dated 10/27/2005 2:55:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, llow mc= o.edu writes:
More on J. Searl's devices and other topics ar= e contained in articles at The Institute for New Energy website:
http://w= ww.padrak.com/ine/
Thanks for the links on the Searl engine.  I read in the Scalar Wa= ves book by Konstantine Meyl, that the Searl Engines captured and used neutr= ino energies that come form the sun. Some of the Searl tiny flying saucers w= hich went out of control flew directly into the sun since they followed the=20= neutrinos to the source in the sun.  The sun being a black whole that l= eads to the center of the universe collects and resonates with neutrinos fro= m the other stars at the center of the Universe.  Ships made of light e= nergy by means of tesla teleportation coils which transmute matter into ligh= t as in the Philadelphia experiment, can slip through the black whole in the= sun to travel to the center of the universe and other star systems by means= of the solar star network.  Information made of light energy can also=20= be transmitted between the universal solar star network from any sun to the=20= center of the universe to any other sun.  Traveling through the sun's b= lack whole along the energy rifts and around energy vortexes that lead=20= to other places in the universe in the 4th dimension can be dangerous s= ince it is alleged that only machines or persons specially trained with brai= ns genetically engineered to see the energy rifts in the 4th dimension may n= avigates ships safely.
 
Baron Von Volsung, http://www.rhfweb.com/baron, Email: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html
President Thomas D. Clark,= Email: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html,
Pers= onal Web Page: http://www.rhfweb.com/personal
New Age Productio= n's Inc., http://www.rhfweb.com/newage
Star Haven Community Service= s, at = http://www.rhfweb.com/sh
Radiation Health Foundation Trust at http://www.rhfweb= .com/

Making a difference one person at a time
Get informed= . Inform others.
-------------------------------1131047646-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 3 12:03:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA3K2sTv030752; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 12:03:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA3K2ggP030638; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 12:02:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 12:02:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: ThomasClark123 aol.com Message-ID: <1a8.431c616a.309bc6b6 aol.com> Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 15:01:58 EST Subject: Re: OT: Re: Electrostatic Hover Cars To: vortex-l eskimo.com, A-albionic_Subscription@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1131048118" X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5039 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64274 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friendsD Status: O X-Status: -------------------------------1131048118 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/27/2005 1:51:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, orionworks charter.net writes: I get the impression that you have not read Sagan's book, "Deamon-Haunted World", specifically the chapter "The Dragon in my Garage." > Making a difference one person at a time > Get informed. Inform others. I read the synopsis of Sagan's book Deamon-Haunted World on the Internet which said he debunked most claims about E.T.'s, Atlantis, and flying saucers, since I could not find a copy of his book in the Library. But the title of Sagan's book hints that he could not tell the truth about E.T.'s living amongst us, since our world is haunted by Daemons who repress such knowledge publicly and may prevent him from speaking about it. -------------------------------1131048118 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In a message dated 10/27/2005 1:51:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, orionwo= rks charter.net writes:

I get the impression that you have not rea= d Sagan's book, "Deamon-Haunted World", specifically the chapter "The Dragon= in my Garage."

> Making a difference one person at a time
>= Get informed. Inform others.
I read the synopsis of Sagan's book Deamon-Haunted World on the In= ternet which said he debunked most claims about E.T.'s, Atlantis, = and flying saucers, since I could not find a copy of his book in the Library= .  But the title of Sagan's book hints that he could not tell the truth= about E.T.'s living amongst us, since our world is haunted by Daemons who r= epress such knowledge publicly and may prevent him from speaking about it.&n= bsp;
-------------------------------1131048118-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 3 13:06:01 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA3L5JQt007249; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 13:05:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA3L5IEo007236; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 13:05:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 13:05:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=IARLKYt352LhL7Em9mt5nDv8AeFsUXi7UkAvmmBabrokbIkSmaNq5PzLLlJ0QKvM; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200511432049480 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Small Nuclear Power Reactors Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 14:04:09 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940d628b5b0f85bf56d9448630096cf4475350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.109 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64276 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > > As for space exploration, from earth-to-orbit the only cost-efficient, > sensible approach appears to be the space elevator. A space elevator would > eventually give us the ability to lift millions of tons of fabricated > equipment to orbit, and to assemble > spaceships there. Even with chemical fuel, this will open the entire solar > system to us. (But something like lunar helium-3 would probably be a better > choice.) > I disagree with you Jed. The Earth to Orbit energy runs about 120,000 BTU/kilogram easily done with using air-breathing, Piloted-Recoverable ScramJets and Robot-Auto-Pilot to low earth orbit. > > An elevator would be even be superior to a CF powered earth-to-space vehicle. > Right now a step-ladder would even be superior to CF. > > Japanese national television recently had a short news special about future > technology expected by the year 2050. The space elevator was prominently > featured. Many people are taking this idea seriously. I will grant, the > core technology has not been invented yet, but we are closer to it than we > are to something like Bush's plan to explore Mars. It would cost far less > than today's space shuttle program or the ISS. > When does Turner Classic Movies show the Japanese film: "GODZILLA CHASES JED UP THE SPACE ELEVATOR"? :-) Fred > > - Jed > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 3 13:11:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA3L9Wrk009481; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 13:09:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA3L9Um7009439; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 13:09:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 13:09:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Podkletnov's Disks Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2005 08:09:03 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta01ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.58.89] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Thu, 3 Nov 2005 21:09:03 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id jA3L99Ew009193 Resent-Message-ID: <2BkWLD.A.TTC.IynaDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64277 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to thomas malloy's message of Thu, 3 Nov 2005 01:55:10 -0600: Hi, [snip] >Bruce posted; > >Podkletnov's device could be made into a >reactionless drive if we can get reliable mass production of his disks >and steady high voltage power supply. [snip] This is an ideal application for an isotope power supply. Because they produce particles at high energies, it is essentially only necessary to catch those particles, and a voltage equal to the energy of the particles (in eV) develops automatically. E.g. a 5 MeV beta particle results in a 5 MV power supply with no moving parts. For alpha particles, the voltage is halved. Consider also that the fuel mass is minimal, because of the high energy density. (Anywhere from 100000 to 1000000 times better than chemical fuel). There are difficulties however. Alphas have very short range in solids, so the fuel layer would need to be very thin (1-2 microns). Beta's fare somewhat better in this regard. Furthermore, half of the particles will end up in their support electrode rather than at the collection electrode, resulting in loss of energy to heat. This heat has to be disposed of somehow (some can be converted into useful energy indirectly). Nevertheless, despite the inefficiencies, this is still way ahead of chemical propellant. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 3 13:29:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA3LSTQJ020618; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 13:28:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA3LSRUb020569; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 13:28:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 13:28:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Small Nuclear Power Reactors X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 909b8a8ff0cae19159d456a4b333f05c Reply-To: michael.foster excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20051103212759.3F6F6C1AA4 xprdmailfe25.nwk.excite.com> Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 16:27:59 -0500 (EST) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64278 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones wrote: > - although the worst kept secret in nuclear engineering > is that there is a huge anomaly in how many "free" neutrons > one gets from a deuterium moderator. Would you care to elaborate? M. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 3 14:03:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA3M3Ikq002594; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 14:03:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA3M3HId002574; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 14:03:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 14:03:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051103165404.04ecc0d0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 17:02:49 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Small Nuclear Power Reactors In-Reply-To: <410-2200511432049480 earthlink.net> References: <410-2200511432049480 earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64279 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick Sparber wrote: >I disagree with you Jed. The Earth to Orbit energy runs about 120,000 >BTU/kilogram easily done with using air-breathing, Piloted-Recoverable >ScramJets and Robot-Auto-Pilot to low earth orbit. Actually, as Arthur C. Clarke pointed out long ago, with a very good battery or a hydrogen generator, you could recover the energy it takes to go up on your way back down, with regenerative braking. The only energy cost would be for friction. But actually, the dollar cost for fuel is only a tiny part of the cost of reaching space with rocket technology. With cold fusion the fuel would cost virtually nothing but there would still be two big problems: 1. Danger. After 60 years and billions of dollars of development, unmanned rockets still explode so frequently that insurance rates are sky high. Even a cold fusion powered vehicle would require extreme performance, high temperatures and pressures and so on. 2. The enormous expense of manufacturing the vehicles. I do not think that reusable spacecraft will become practical any time soon because of the stresses they undergo during spaceflight. A vehicle climbing the space elevator would undergo little stress. >When does Turner Classic Movies show the Japanese film: > >"GODZILLA CHASES JED UP THE SPACE ELEVATOR"? :-) When that happens you will know we have won the fight for truth, justice and the American way. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 3 14:15:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA3MF3jd007716; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 14:15:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA3MF0wB007679; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 14:15:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 14:15:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00f701c5e0c3$fac24f50$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20051103212759.3F6F6C1AA4 xprdmailfe25.nwk.excite.com> Subject: Re: Small Nuclear Power Reactors Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 14:14:37 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64280 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michael, >> although the worst kept secret in nuclear engineering >> is that there is a huge anomaly in how many "free" neutrons >> one gets from a deuterium moderator. > Would you care to elaborate? My former neighbor was a Canadian plant engineer at Pickering during the early days of Candu. These reactors have performed exceptionally well over the years and required fewer refuelings than initially thought. Many operate at over 100% of design. OK you may say they were conservative with the original specs - but that appears not to have been the case. Have you ever known a modest Canadian? - they are almost the equal of Texans (in terms of bluster). I was also told that there is some level of official dis-information in the published material. Try getting that verified. The higher than expected neutron flux, and better performance, is coming from the moderator/coolant. My impression was that there had been a concerted effort in Canada NOT to let this become common knowledge. This reactor is a big expert item for them. I have seen nothing published which documents this information on accelerated heavy-water degradation, as it was relayed to me. In fairness, if you have ever known any Canadian engineers, then you may realize they have a high capacity to consume beers and tell tall-tales; however, nothing I have heard from others in the US leads me to believe otherwise. On the contrary, many reactor designers here thought the Candu was going to be a huge blunder and are amazed at its success ... therefore, other than the fact that this is not in "print," it is very believable... and needless to say, many important things, in any field or endeavor, are not in print. As for Robin's question - the only thing I seem to remember is that they will get something like a tenth of a percent per year of decrease in purity (there are many tons of heavy water involved however) and that the moderator is continually being upgraded because of this. If the purity gets too low, then the moderator starts absorbing part of the flux and will shut the thing down. Initially, they never figured on any of this dynamic situation ,which is heavily to their benefit as it turns out. If you make it in tonnage, heavy water is cheap. BTW I don't remember the exact numbers, but that tenth of a percent yearly is probably one heck of a lot of cheap neutrons. The markup on heavy water, and Candu reactors, puts $tarbucks and Micro$oft to shame. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 3 15:29:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA3NTLTY006765; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 15:29:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA3NTIJF006732; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 15:29:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 15:29:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=QnK9na4+hmY1o3rrAmvUwIa9hQaps5WrIJonFP8SDZNIvgNYjVcfPj3a7YDMdyrT; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220051143222832220 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Small Nuclear Power Reactors Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 16:28:32 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9403178c90007729953213af0f46bef8543350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.110 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64281 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > > Frederick Sparber wrote: > > >I disagree with you Jed. The Earth to Orbit energy runs about 120,000 > >BTU/kilogram easily done with using air-breathing, Piloted-Recoverable > >ScramJets and Robot-Auto-Pilot to low earth orbit. > > Actually, as Arthur C. Clarke pointed out long ago, with a very good > battery or a hydrogen generator, you could recover the energy it takes to > go up on your way back down, with regenerative braking. The only energy > cost would be for friction. > Based on A. C. Clarke's reasoning we should be using that idea for Boeing 777s and Airbuses full of passengers. OTOH, failing that, Air Brakes for Planes and Vacuum Brakes for Spacecraft? > > But actually, the dollar cost for fuel is only > a tiny part of the cost of reaching space with rocket technology. With cold > fusion the fuel would cost virtually nothing but there would still be two > big problems: > > 1. Danger. After 60 years and billions of dollars of development, unmanned > rockets still explode so frequently that insurance rates are sky high. Even > a cold fusion powered vehicle would require extreme performance, high > temperatures and pressures and so on. > The Cold War and the Arms Race dictated the use of Rocket technology (inherited from Germany and Japan's war effort). > > 2. The enormous expense of manufacturing the vehicles. I do not think that > reusable spacecraft will become practical any time soon because of the > stresses they undergo during spaceflight. A vehicle climbing the space > elevator would undergo little stress. > Burt Rutan would dispute that, Jed. > > >When does Turner Classic Movies show the Japanese film: > > > >"GODZILLA CHASES JED UP THE SPACE ELEVATOR"? :-) > > When that happens you will know we have won the fight for truth, justice > and the American way. > The American way, or Arthur C. Clarke's science fiction way? Personally, I prefer the works of Robert A. Heinlein, and Ray "The Martian Chronicles" Bradbury. :-) Fred > > - Jed > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 3 15:45:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA3Nj7G4013118; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 15:45:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA3Nj2BB013065; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 15:45:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 15:45:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <3921509.1131061484180.JavaMail.root mswamui-andean.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 18:44:43 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Small Nuclear Power Reactors Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64282 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick Sparber wrote: >Based on A. C. Clarke's reasoning we should be using that idea for Boeing 777s > and Airbuses full of passengers. That would be very difficult and dangerous to arrange, whereas a space elevator must have some sort of braking, so it might as well be regenerative. Incidentally, I do not think the elevator car would actually touch the track. That would be too slow. I am assuming it would be magnetic. In that case, you could not avoid generating power by braking. > OTOH, failing that, Air Brakes for Planes and Vacuum Brakes for Spacecraft? Again, that's dangerous and impractical, whereas regenerative braking is natural. Without it, the elevator cars will need to shed a great deal of heat, in a vacuum no less. >> stresses they undergo during spaceflight. A vehicle climbing the space >> elevator would undergo little stress. > > Burt Rutan would dispute that, Jed. I admire Rutan, but he is FAR from making a practical earth-to-orbit system that could lift millions of tons per day. Frankly, I think we are closer to a space elevator than a Rutan-type mass transit system. Someday, in the distant future, I expect that more people and more tons of goods will travel off earth and around the solar system than alll the traffic we now have on the ground. That can only be accomplished with something like an elevator -- or silent anti-gravity ships that go straight up. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 3 16:26:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA40Pp77001753; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 16:26:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA40Pm8c001719; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 16:25:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 16:25:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [64.174.37.158] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes msn.com] X-Sender: mgoldes msn.com In-Reply-To: <3921509.1131061484180.JavaMail.root mswamui-andean.atl.sa.earthlink.net> From: "Mark Goldes" To: JedRothwell mindspring.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: A low cost alternative to the space elevator Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 16:25:19 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Nov 2005 00:25:20.0827 (UTC) FILETIME=[3D6F88B0:01C5E0D6] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64283 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: MPI has been supporting How Wachspress, an inventor who holds a Patent and has done many experiments that suggest a free-flying magnetic levitator can become practical, and provide a better path to access to space. A levitator can be designed to take off and land at ordinary airports, using the geomagnetic field as the stator of a very clever electric motor. The geomagnetic field can be used for braking, eliminating the need for heat shields. The story had a writeup some years back in Aviation Week and Space Technology. The early designs have been superseded. New patents will be filed. A first product may be a sounding rocket replacement. Eventually, with the use of Ultraconductors, passengers can likely be carried. We anticipate that electricity for the propulsion system will be supplied by our Magnetic Power Modules. >From: Jed Rothwell >Reply-To: Jed Rothwell >To: vortex-l eskimo.com >Subject: Re: Small Nuclear Power Reactors >Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 18:44:43 -0500 (GMT-05:00) > >Frederick Sparber wrote: > > >Based on A. C. Clarke's reasoning we should be using that idea for Boeing >777s > > and Airbuses full of passengers. > >That would be very difficult and dangerous to arrange, whereas a space >elevator must have some sort of braking, so it might as well be >regenerative. > >Incidentally, I do not think the elevator car would actually touch the >track. That would be too slow. I am assuming it would be magnetic. In that >case, you could not avoid generating power by braking. > > > > OTOH, failing that, Air Brakes for Planes and Vacuum Brakes for >Spacecraft? > >Again, that's dangerous and impractical, whereas regenerative braking is >natural. Without it, the elevator cars will need to shed a great deal of >heat, in a vacuum no less. > > > >> stresses they undergo during spaceflight. A vehicle climbing the space > >> elevator would undergo little stress. > > > > Burt Rutan would dispute that, Jed. > >I admire Rutan, but he is FAR from making a practical earth-to-orbit system >that could lift millions of tons per day. Frankly, I think we are closer to >a space elevator than a Rutan-type mass transit system. Someday, in the >distant future, I expect that more people and more tons of goods will >travel off earth and around the solar system than alll the traffic we now >have on the ground. That can only be accomplished with something like an >elevator -- or silent anti-gravity ships that go straight up. > >- Jed > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 3 17:01:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA410ZQO020014; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 17:00:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA410WXa019983; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 17:00:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 17:00:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <016801c5e0db$1a50cdd0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" References: <20051103212759.3F6F6C1AA4 xprdmailfe25.nwk.excite.com> <00f701c5e0c3$fac24f50$6401a8c0@NuDell> Subject: Re: Small Nuclear Power Reactors Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 17:00:08 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0165_01C5E098.0BC703D0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64284 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0165_01C5E098.0BC703D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As for some rough cost numbers, if you figure that a medium size 700 MW = Candu reactor with 100 tons of heavy water is loosing a tenth of a = percent of that mass per year, in the form of D-O-D degrading to H-O-D = then that's 200 lbs of water, or over 10 pounds of neutrons.=20 In general, the waste heat of the reactor can be used to bring this = degraded D2O back up to "reactor" grade via ongoing enhanced = thermochemical distillation methods. You will still need to add 200 = pounds of makeup reactor-grade heavy water, however at about $3 = million/ton. Not much really compared to the "value" created by the = degraded tenth-percent. To wit: 10 lbs-equivalent of neutrons will enrich well over a ton of natural = uranium or thorium from fertile to fissile.=20 For fissile Uranium, the heat content =3D 3.3 x 10^10 Btu/lb =3D ~6.6 x = 10^13 Btu/ton which is more than a years supply of fuel for this plant = !!=20 For comparative purposes, the heat content of bituminous coal, the = cheapest source of energy in common use, is about 3 x 10^7 Btu/ton and a = ton costs $40 here and much less in China. To equal a ton of U burned, = the comparative amount of coal would cost about $80 million. This is the = value of the "free" neutrons since the comparative plant would burn a = net of $80 million of coal per year (based on the US coal price) and = since the "free" neutrons from a deuterium moderator will ideally enrich = well over a ton of natural uranium or thorium from fertile to fissile.=20 For every 1000 KWe or power - then per day one needs: Coal: 9000 tons/day or $360,000/day=20 Uranium (as 235U) only 3 kg/day ... with "free" neutrons and natural U = at $50/kg, this is $150/day fuel cost.=20 Net saving per year is nearly the whole $80 million. At the very least, = then, the "hidden" value of the Candu in comparison to even coal is the = full $80 million yearly less the difference in capital cost - as the = price of natural U is so low. Over a 30 year life of the plan, this is = as much as $2.4 billion if coal stays the same price. In practice, this = "savings" will increase comparatively over the years, as the cost of = coal increases when supplies decrease.=20 BTW Atomic Energy of Canada is advertising to the world that they will = come to your site and install a pair of the newer reactors at just over = US $1,000/ kilowatt capacity for capital cost. A recent project in = Quinshan China finished with two Candu's in 46 months, on-budget and = ahead of schedule. These two fully fueled and operational were $3 = billion net, including fuel and heavy water which is about 20% of the = net cost. These numbers are from press reports. Many critics of AEC said it was too much of a bargain for China, which = not exactly an ally - and a "giveaway" to a potential enemy, and bad = deal for Canada (since AEC changes the government of Canada even more = !!)... ... but AEC is happy with the price, and like all good citizens, they do = not mind gouging the mother-lode, and have apparently taken orders for 4 = more of them to China, and is even financing them, based on the value of = the US dollar...poor China! They do not appreciate how fast the dollar = is dropping. All in all, I think it must be a fair price on the international market. = Now, if power generators in the USA could get such a deal we could all = charge up the new hybrid Prius on the cheap for years to come! (is the = plural of Prius - Prii?)=20 The modular reactor described earlier in this thread will not compete = with Candu on the international market, where the financing charges are = borne by the manufacturer and not by the utility - but in the USA - just = eliminating the interest (modularity would do that) would make the = concept very competitive, plus - getting away from steam should make it = safer and more desirable than Candu - even if less efficient.=20 When your fuel cost, due to using natural uranium, is essentially = "chump-change" and you also eliminate carbon altogether (for the = ecological benefit), then you do not worry all that much about actual = efficiency. Even if the efficiency dropped from 35% (Candu) to 17% = (advanced thermoelectric) then the fuel cost only goes up from $150/ day = to $300/day for about half a million consumers and lots of free thermal = heat becomes available for factories and winter use. Jones ------=_NextPart_000_0165_01C5E098.0BC703D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
As for some rough cost numbers, if you = figure that=20 a medium size 700 MW Candu reactor with 100 tons of heavy water is = loosing a=20 tenth of a percent of that mass per year, in the form of D-O-D degrading = to=20 H-O-D then that's 200 lbs of water, or over 10 pounds of neutrons. =

In=20 general, the waste heat of the reactor can be used to bring this = degraded D2O=20 back up to "reactor" grade via ongoing enhanced thermochemical = distillation=20 methods. You will still need to add 200 pounds of makeup reactor-grade = heavy=20 water, however at about $3 million/ton. Not much really compared to the = "value"=20 created by the degraded tenth-percent. To wit:

10 lbs-equivalent = of=20 neutrons will enrich well over a ton of natural uranium or thorium from = fertile=20 to fissile.

For fissile Uranium, the heat content =3D 3.3 x = 10^10=20 Btu/lb  =3D ~6.6 x 10^13 Btu/ton which is more than a years = supply of=20 fuel for this plant !! 

For comparative purposes, the heat = content=20 of bituminous coal, the cheapest source of energy in common use, is = about 3 x=20 10^7 Btu/ton and a ton costs $40 here and much less in China. To equal a = ton of=20 U burned, the comparative amount of coal would cost about $80 million. = This is=20 the value of the "free" neutrons since the comparative plant would burn = a net of=20 $80 million of coal per year (based on the US coal price) and since the = "free"=20 neutrons from a deuterium moderator will ideally enrich well over a ton = of=20 natural uranium or thorium from fertile to fissile.

For every = 1000 KWe=20 or power - then per day one needs:
Coal: 9000 tons/day  or = $360,000/day=20
Uranium (as 235U) only 3 kg/day ... with "free" neutrons and natural = U at=20 $50/kg, this is $150/day fuel cost.
 
Net saving per year is nearly the whole = $80=20 million. At the very least, then, the "hidden" value of the Candu in = comparison=20 to even coal is the full $80 million yearly less the difference in = capital=20 cost - as the price of natural U is so low. Over a 30 year life of = the=20 plan, this is as much as $2.4 billion if coal stays the same = price. In=20 practice, this "savings" will increase comparatively over the years, as = the cost=20 of coal increases when supplies decrease.

BTW Atomic Energy of = Canada is=20 advertising to the world that  they will come to your site and = install a=20 pair of the newer reactors at just over US $1,000/ kilowatt = capacity for=20 capital cost. A recent project in Quinshan China finished with two = Candu's in 46=20 months, on-budget and ahead of schedule. These two fully fueled and = operational=20 were $3 billion net, including fuel and heavy water which is about 20% = of the=20 net cost. These numbers are from press reports.
 
Many critics of AEC said it was too = much of a=20 bargain for China, which not exactly an ally - and a "giveaway" to a = potential=20 enemy, and bad deal for Canada (since AEC changes the government of = Canada even=20 more !!)...
 
... but AEC is happy with the = price, and like=20 all good citizens, they do not mind gouging the mother-lode, and have = apparently=20 taken orders for 4 more of them to China, and is even financing them, = based on=20 the value of the US dollar...poor China! They do not appreciate how fast = the=20 dollar is dropping.
 
All in all, I think it must be a = fair price on=20 the international market. Now, if power generators in the USA could = get=20 such a deal we could all charge up the new hybrid Prius on the cheap for = years=20 to come! (is the plural of Prius - Prii?)
 
The modular reactor described earlier = in this=20 thread will not compete with Candu on the international market, where = the=20 financing charges are borne by the manufacturer and not by the utility - = but in=20 the USA - just eliminating the interest (modularity would do that) would = make=20 the concept very competitive, plus - getting away from steam should make = it=20 safer and more desirable than Candu - even if less efficient. =
 
When your fuel cost, due to using = natural=20 uranium, is essentially "chump-change" and you also eliminate = carbon=20 altogether (for the ecological benefit), then you do not worry all = that=20 much about actual efficiency. Even if the efficiency dropped from 35% = (Candu) to=20 17% (advanced thermoelectric) then the fuel cost only goes up from = $150/=20 day to $300/day for about half a million consumers and lots of free = thermal=20 heat becomes available for factories and winter=20 use.

Jones
------=_NextPart_000_0165_01C5E098.0BC703D0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 3 18:04:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA423vrD012535; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 18:04:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA423qTQ012492; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 18:03:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 18:03:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Small Nuclear Power Reactors Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2005 13:03:25 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <7aglm1puaanuellamg91krhgbm3fueiesc 4ax.com> References: <20051103212759.3F6F6C1AA4 xprdmailfe25.nwk.excite.com> <00f701c5e0c3$fac24f50$6401a8c0@NuDell> <016801c5e0db$1a50cdd0$6401a8c0@NuDell> In-Reply-To: <016801c5e0db$1a50cdd0$6401a8c0 NuDell> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta02sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.58.89] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Fri, 4 Nov 2005 02:03:25 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id jA423WYD012199 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64285 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Thu, 3 Nov 2005 17:00:08 -0800: Hi, [snip] >For every 1000 KWe or power - then per day one needs: I think that should be 1000 MWe ... >Coal: 9000 tons/day or $360,000/day >Uranium (as 235U) only 3 kg/day ... with "free" neutrons and natural U at $50/kg, this is $150/day fuel cost. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 3 20:15:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA44EYCA008607; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 20:14:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA44EWre008588; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 20:14:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 20:14:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <4enk78$dkg9an mxip29a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.97,289,1125892800"; d="scan'208"; a="457712983:sNHT15166564" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: OrionWorks Organization: OrionWorks To: CC: Subject: Re: OT: Re: Electrostatic Hover Cars Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 22:14:00 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64286 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: ThomasClark123 aol.com >> From: orionworks > >> I get the impression that you have not read Sagan's >> book, "Deamon-Haunted World", specifically the chapter >> "The Dragon in my Garage." > I read the synopsis of Sagan's book Deamon-Haunted World > on the Internet which said he debunked most claims about > E.T.'s, Atlantis, and flying saucers, since I could not > find a copy of his book in the Library. That's a pity. > But the title of > Sagan's book hints that he could not tell the truth about' > E.T.'s living amongst us, since our world is haunted by > Daemons who repress such knowledge publicly and > may prevent him from speaking about it. Sagan debunked uncritical thinking about UFOs, ETs, Atlantis, and flying saucers, not the subject itself. BIG difference. In fact I suspect he had a lot to say on some of these subjects, and particularly on the possibility of ETs having visited our planet. Careful research on Sagan's earlier writings indicates that earlier in his career he was more forthcoming. In Argosy magazine, published back in 1975 the following paragraph might be of interest: * * * * * * * * "Basing his estimate on just one space launching per year by 1,000,000 stars, Sagan believes the earth would have been visited once every 10,000 years. Since our planet is 5,000,000,000 years old, this means that it may have received some 50,000 visits by alien intelligences - one of which may have taken place within historical times." * * * * * * * * ...and here's another interesting piece on Sagan, published in Popular Science Magazine, March 1997, by Arthur Fisher just after Sagan's death. * * * * * * * * "...I interviewed [Sagan] in Washington, D.C., after Mariner 9 had sent back spectacular pictures of the Martian surface. Sagan had acted as head of one of Mariner's imaging teams. That interview, "close-up Photos Reveal a Turbulent Mars," appeared in Popular Science in September 1972. I had originally headlined the story "The Red Planet Isn't Dead," but Sagan pleaded with me to change it. "I'm in enough hot water with some of my colleagues as it is," he said, referring to the resentment felt in conservative scientific quarters over his growing fame as a popularizer." * * * * * * * * Indeed Sagan learned later in his career to be more cautious about expressing certain personal opinions that were not necessarily held by the scientific establishment, particularly on subjects like ET visitations. He knew what side of the bread the butter was spread on - and his career as a popular scientist profited handsomely as a result of exploiting that realization. One does not, however, need to conjure up with mythic interpretations implying that Sagan stopped telling "the truth" because "...our world is haunted by Daemons who repress such knowledge publicly." Your writings indicate to me that you either have a difficult time with, or you simply chose not to distinguish the difference between mythic reality and scientific reality. Both are in my view absolutely important for a fuller more balanced perception on reality, but only if one can distinguish the difference. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 3 21:47:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA45kYJH014097; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 21:46:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA45kW0t014066; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 21:46:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 21:46:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: ThomasClark123 aol.com Message-ID: <6.50dce8e1.309c4f9f aol.com> Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 00:46:07 EST Subject: Re: OT:Electrostatic Hover Cars To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1131083167" X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5039 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64287 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -------------------------------1131083167 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/3/2005 11:15:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, orionworks charter.net writes: Your writings indicate to me that you either have a difficult time with, or you simply chose not to distinguish the difference between mythic reality and scientific reality. Both are in my view absolutely important for a fuller more balanced perception on reality, but only if one can distinguish the difference You may be right. Earning a B.A. in Linguistics and a B.S. in Computer Science and Engineering at MSU, I learned how to use historical and lingustic reconstruction to reconstruct languages, and I also used the same technique to reconstruct the secret histories of Earth by reading between the lines of what myths said and what other science fiction writers hinted at, and what our history books said, and I may have made many great errors in confusing mythical accounts of history with more scientific accounts. I have read or browsed through most books at the Michigan State University library on history, the origin of races, tribes and mythical cultures on Earth. And I did read several well documented historical books about mythical societies such as Utopias of the classical world Ferguson, John, 1921- London : Thames and Hudson, [1975] and Imaginary worlds; or the evolution of Utopia by Paul Bloomfield, which very specifically and clearly stated that the mythical Gods of Greece existed and left Earth during Plato's day, and that there is a very real underworld society on Earth where supermen, dragons, angels, and daemons live who are ruled and controlled not by governments but by computerized beam weapons systems in the inner Earth a few miles down or further. There are many more books about life in the inner hollow Earth such as the The Smoky God, or: A Voyage to the Inner World / by Willis George Emerson, and The Missing Diary of Admiral Richard E. Byrd, and The Journals of CIA Operatives who have visited the Inner Earth, and E.T. societies. Dr. Richard Boylan's website at http://www.drboylan.com/ and email list very professional provide official presidential documents, and reports from NASA, about E.T.s, advanced US secret flying saucer space ships and agencies, and E.T.'s presently teraforming Mars, as well NASA reports on how the US government spends trillions of dollars trying to cover up the fact that E.T.'s and star visitors live on Earth with us, which is causing the US government to go broke. The book by Francis Bacon called New Atlantis as posted at http://oregonstate.edu/instruct/phl302/texts/bacon/atlantis.html discussing a visit to Atlantis after Christopher Columbus had discovered America, mentions that a holographic energy beam teleported a copy of the bible from the future to residents of Atlantis (Angelic Beings) long before the bible was ever written. Bacon also mentions in the detail the technologies that the Atlantinians had and used such as advanced energy beam technologies and the means to study the energies in life forms. The Atlantinians had residences 3 miles down in caves, and 3 miles up in mountains on Atlantis, so that they could survive floods, meteor attacks, and earth quakes. The Atlantinians also claimed that around 3000 B.C. there were dozens of nations with thousands of ships sailing all around the world but that a flood occurred and that the sailing decreased so that knowledge of the America's and Atlantis was lost after 3000 B.C. My guess is that this Atlantis spoken above may be in the inner hollow Earth or near the north pole, since the Atlantinians mention that their home was in God's bosom being perhaps the inner hollow Earth? Voltaire in his book Candide, mentions that E.T.'s lived in South America in his day. George Washington in official congressional records mentions that he could remotely see into the future by means of Angelic remote sensing technologies given to him by Angels, and stated the vampires would attempt to ruin America as is happening today. I have read several other books such as MYSTIC MICHIGAN. Written by JAGER, MARK. $7.95 ISBN: 9672, which describe the architectural accounts and findings of Celtic ruins in Michigan and in other states which prove that a proto-celtic societies existed in the Americas, and which are kept out of main stream history books. I have recieved emails documenting skelotons of Giants being found in Saudi Arabia, and Roman and many other types of Classical Middle Eastern coins being found in Minnesota, USA. The fictional books The Eternity Code (Artemis Fowl): by Eoin Colfer also very clearly hint and specify that societies of Fairies, Leprachauns, and Elves live a few miles down in the inner Earth and utilize advanced space age technologies superior to ours. Lawhead's Pendragon Novel's give a very good historical account of Atlantis. The societies living in the inner Earth use advanced computers, teleportation and beam weapons technologies to literally create any type of life form imaginable and engineered on computers systems converting pure energy into materialized physical form. I have gathered my conclusions from many well documented sources as shown above in part, but I could yet be greatly misinformed, and have over speculated. Baron Von Volsung, http://www.rhfweb.com/baron, Email: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html President Thomas D. Clark, Email: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html, Personal Web Page: http://www.rhfweb.com/personal New Age Production's Inc., http://www.rhfweb.com/newage Star Haven Community Services, at http://www.rhfweb.com/sh Radiation Health Foundation Trust at http://www.rhfweb.com/ Making a difference one person at a time Get informed. Inform others. -------------------------------1131083167 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In a message dated 11/3/2005 11:15:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, orionwo= rks charter.net writes:
Your writings indicate to me that you either h= ave a difficult time with, or you simply chose not to distinguish the differ= ence between mythic reality and scientific reality. Both are in my view abso= lutely important for a fuller more balanced perception on reality, but only=20= if one can distinguish the difference
You may be right.  Earning a B.A. in Linguistics and a B.S. in Com= puter Science and Engineering at MSU, I learned how to use historical and li= ngustic reconstruction to reconstruct languages, and I also used t= he same technique to reconstruct the secret histories of Earth by=20= reading between the lines of what myths said and what other science fiction=20= writers hinted at, and what our history books said, and I may have made many= great errors in confusing mythical accounts of history with more scientific= accounts. 
 
I have read or browsed through most books at the Michigan Sta= te University library on history, the origin of races, tribes and mythical c= ultures on Earth.  And I did read several well documented historic= al books about mythical societies such as Utopias of the= classical world Ferguson, John, 1921-
London : Thames and Hud= son, [1975] and Imaginary worlds; or the evolution of Utopia by Paul Bloomfi= eld, which very specifically and clearly stated that the mythical Gods of Gr= eece existed and left Earth during Plato's day, and that there is a ver= y real underworld society on Earth where supermen, dragons, angels, and daem= ons live who are ruled and controlled not by governments but by compute= rized beam weapons systems in the inner Earth a few miles down or further.&n= bsp;  There are many more books about life in the inner hollow Earth su= ch as the The Smoky God, or: A Voyage to the Inner World / by=20= Willis George Emerson, and The Missing Diary of Admiral Richard E. Byrd, and= The Journals of CIA Operatives who have visited the Inner Earth, and E.T. s= ocieties.   Dr. Richard Boylan's website at http://www.drboylan.com/=  and email list very professional provide official presidential do= cuments, and reports from NASA, about E.T.s, advanced US secret flying sauce= r space ships and agencies, and E.T.'s presently teraforming Mars, as well N= ASA reports on how the US government spends trillions of dollars trying to c= over up the fact that E.T.'s and star visitors live on Earth with us, which=20= is causing the US government to go broke.
 
The book by Francis Bacon called New Atlantis as posted at = http://oregonstate.edu/instruct/phl302/texts/bacon/atlantis.html di= scussing a visit to Atlantis after Christopher Columbus had discovered Ameri= ca, mentions that a holographic energy beam teleported a copy of the bible f= rom the future to residents of Atlantis (Angelic Beings) long= before the bible was ever written.  Bacon also mentions in the detail=20= the technologies that the Atlantinians had and used such as advanced energy=20= beam technologies and the means to study the energies in life forms.  T= he Atlantinians had residences 3 miles down in caves, and 3 miles up in moun= tains on Atlantis, so that they could survive floods, meteor attacks, and ea= rth quakes.  The Atlantinians also claimed that around 3000 B.C. there=20= were dozens of nations with thousands of ships sailing all around the world=20= but that a flood occurred and that the sailing decreased so that knowledge o= f the America's and Atlantis was lost after 3000 B.C.  My guess is= that this Atlantis spoken above may be in the inner hollow Earth or near th= e north pole, since the Atlantinians mention that their home was in God= 's bosom being perhaps the inner hollow Earth?
 
Voltaire in his book Candide, mentions that E.T.'s lived in South Ameri= ca in his day.  George Washington in official congressional records men= tions that he could remotely see into the future by means of Angelic remote=20= sensing technologies given to him by Angels, and stated the vampires wo= uld attempt to ruin America as is happening today.
 
I have read several other books such as MYSTIC MICHIGAN. Written by JAGER, MARK. $7.95 ISBN: 9672, which describe = ;the architectural accounts and findings of Celtic ruins in Michigan an= d in other states which prove that a proto-celtic societies existed in the A= mericas, and which are kept out of main stream history books. I have recieve= d emails documenting skelotons of Giants being found in Saudi Arabia, and Ro= man and many other types of Classical Middle Eastern coins being found in Mi= nnesota, USA. 
 
The fictional books The Eternity Code (Artemis Fowl): by=20= Eoin Colfer also very clearly hint and specify that societies of Fairie= s, Leprachauns, and Elves live a few miles down in the inner Earth and utili= ze advanced space age technologies superior to ours.  Lawhead's Pendrag= on Novel's give a very good historical account of Atlantis.  The societ= ies living in the inner Earth use advanced computers, teleportation and beam= weapons technologies to literally create any type of life form imaginable&n= bsp;and engineered on computers systems converting pure energy int= o materialized physical form.  
 
I have gathered my conclusions from many well documented sources as sho= wn above in part, but I could yet be greatly misinformed, and have over= speculated.
 
Baron Von Volsung, http://www.rhfweb.com/baron, Email: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html
President Thomas D. Clark,= Email: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html,
Pers= onal Web Page: http://www.rhfweb.com/personal
New Age Productio= n's Inc., http://www.rhfweb.com/newage
Star Haven Community Service= s, at = http://www.rhfweb.com/sh
Radiation Health Foundation Trust at http://www.rhfweb= .com/

Making a difference one person at a time
Get informed= . Inform others.
-------------------------------1131083167-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 4 00:12:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA48BduM016635; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 00:11:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA48BbGM016619; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 00:11:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 00:11:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: temalloy mail.usfamily.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 02:11:27 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: The Baron posted Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64288 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The Baron posted Garrison Keeler claims that the garden of Eden and the Adam and Eve of the bible occurred near California and not in the Middle East and they were not related to apes and have no ape genes in them since they were genetically engineered by star visitors. The wife that Adam had before Eve called Lilith allegedly came from the Amazon region near Mexico. Some of the bible clans then relocated to Minnesota to become the Norse tribes Keelor is a comic, who has made a good living by pretending to be a laid back guy from a small town, which just proves that he is one hell of an actor. OTOH, I don't suppose that the idea that the star visitors engineered us is any wackier than life just happened. He also posted. More on J. Searl's devices and other topics are contained in articles at The Institute for New Energy website: I'm going to criticize Pat for posting a noncritical evaluation of Searl's "technology." Searl claims to have built a free energy machine, which levitates, and will cure any disease known to man. I'm prepared to take back all times I've called him a fraud and a charlatan just as soon as I see one of his machines do any one of the above. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 4 00:15:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA48EXFh017893; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 00:14:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA48EVkO017842; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 00:14:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 00:14:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <436B184A.8050300 iinet.net.au> Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2005 19:14:02 +1100 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: ISS References: <43698D86.9010203@iinet.net.au> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64289 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >In reply to Wesley Bruce's message of Thu, 03 Nov 2005 15:09:42 >+1100: >Hi, >[snip] > > >>Firstly the ISS is the dry dock not the ship. It is actually doing quite >>a lot of quiet science; learning to live in space *was* the original >>objective. >>The ISS would not survive a trip to Mars. It would not survive the >>required acceleration, >> >> > >I think that if you put the modules in line, rather than in their >current configuration, it wouldn't have any problem with the >acceleration. However I'm more curious about how long the trip >would take using a nuclear reactor and an ion engine at low >acceleration as opposed to the high acceleration chemical thruster >you appear to be considering. > > About the same. The time frame is not acceleration limited. Its limited by orbital windows. Some have proposed making a cycler using ISS modules. The minimum fuel option is a cycler. A cycler is a craft that orbits the sun in such a way that it takes a crew to Mars in three months and then swings around the sun unmanned to pick up a new crew. A second cycler going in the opposite direction would take three months to drop someone home from mars and then spend a year going around the sun. Ion engines are too slow for manned flight we want to go faster than three months for manned missions. That gives us three options. Avoiding solar flares, we have more than three months warning but less than six I believe. Some say we have more than a year but we've only looked at a years data from the new sats in close to the sun. Ion engines are OK for dead cargoes but solar sails can match ion engines and plasma sails beat them. The best sail design is at: http://www.ess.washington.edu/Space/propulsion.html 2nPa is good thrust, better than Ion and you are not burning fuel. Also you can combine robotic craft with manned craft in a way they accumulates momentum in six unmanned craft. And then bounce them off the manned crafts fields. This takes a months acceleration from the solar wind and packs it into a few minutes of field interaction. This is my reusable reaction mass drive. Not yet published. If you could run a drive at one g continously Mars is 3 to 5 _days_ away but you'd need a hell of a bumper bar. Nuclear salt water rocket 0.1 g ~ 3 -5 weeks, a good plasma drive 0.01 g ~4 to 7 weeks, The best sail 0.005 ~6 to 9 weeks. Reactionless drives rule. Too bad about newtons laws. ;-) > > >>and it would not carry enough supplys to make the >>round trip of three to five years. >> >> > >It need not be the whole ship. > > > >>About 30% of its mass would not be >>required on a trip to Mars but can't be removed. >> >> > >What mass would that be, and why can't it be removed? > > Lab racks with power and cooling. Their not much use on mars because there systems are optimized for zero g. On mars you want your lab on the ground or better still in the rover. > > >>I'm in the Australian >>Mars society and the National space society NSS. We're doing the design >>work that Nasa keeps claiming the credit for. >> >> > > >Excellent, then you should be able to answer all my questions! :) > > Dou now I'm in trouble. > > >>Space exploration would be simpler if we had the heavy lift craft the >>National Space Society NSS has been talking about for years and Nasa has >>just announced it now will slowly design and build the thing./ /That's >>called reinventing the wheel; given that volunteers in the NSS did a >>full design a decade a go. The heavy lift ship could lift the remaining >>ISS components in two shots. It can lift ~100 tons. We could do one lift >>if all the bits fitted in one bundle but they don't. *Dou!* >> >> > >What's the lifting capacity of the Russian's largest rocket? >[snip] > > >> * An Orbiting network of data relay sats and navigation beacons. >> Mars Net. It's been designed awaiting funds. This means that a >> >> > >How many satellites are already in Mars orbit, and is there any >reason they can't talk to one another, and thus be used as relay >satellites? I know there is at least one, if you count the trip >vessel as a second, then you need only one other small satellite >to form a triangle, and that could be taken along on the trip. > > There's at least three and one on the way but there are incompatibilities and other problems in the current constellation. Mars Net is store and forward email, much bigger data streams and the sats can talk to each other in the same language so you can send 'live' video. Also their clocks are optimized for limited gps type navigation. You need 6 to 18 sats for a minimal navigational system, I believe. The system we have uses many more sats but we do not need to more than half a mile accuracy on mars. We don't have streets to find and buildings to bomb over there yet. > > > >> crew or robot on Mars can call earth at any time from anywhere on >> Mars and no-one can get lost. It also means a team on Mars can >> teleoperate a robot anywhere on the planet in real time at any >> time. >> >> > > > >>We have 3 fission options. Pebble bed, a and >> neutron bombarded isotops. That's safer than EVA's. >> >> > >By the time this mission gets off the ground, you may have a CF >option as well. > Why do you think I'm in both CF and the space societies? >BTW I don't think the Hafnium reactor is for real. > > You think it was a misinformation program or some thing. It cold be. I have two papers on it and they seem real. Yes its not really fission but its still nuclear binding energy being used up. The half life must change as a consequence. >Perhaps you could explain the "neutron bombarded isotopes" - where >do the neutrons come from? > A a two kg neutron gun fires into a cavity lined with isotopes normally found in medium grade nuclear waste. They fission but they don't make enough neutrons to chain react. It can be turned off quickly. I'll check my source on that one the web page has moved on me. >Also, if by "Hafnium reactor" you are >referring to Hf-178, then that's not really a fission option. >[snip] > > >> * Mars fuel plant launch. A robot rover equipped unmanned mars >> lander that makes fuel from Martian atmosphere. Powered by some >> kind of reactor. Cold fusion would be nice. We need 50 kw. >> >> > >Why not land the reactor portion of the main ship on Mars? Then >you can use the power from the main reactor to create all the fuel >you need in a short period of time. It would save the whole fuel >plant trip. It could also make enough fuel for it's own launch for >the return trip. The fuel plant could be taken along on the main >ship. Might be better than landing only to discover that the >previous fuel plant mission didn't quite work, and you now have no >way of getting back. If the crew + fuel plant landing doesn't >work, then the crew are probably dead, and not very interested in >coming back anyway. >[snip] > > Yes thats been thought of but if we have a big reactor on Mars then we can do anything. But would you go to mars with a reactor and fuel plant not knowing it will absolutly work. Send a robot. Make fuel to come home. check it worked and then go. That way you garantee you'll get back. That said my moneys on cold fusion. But I would still make fuel with a fusion powered robot factory while I watched from the safty of earth. >> * Permanent base, probably part underground, part in multistory >> buildings and part in modular glass houses. It needs to be placed >> near a multi-ton water ice deposit. Pressure domes, farm designs >> and other system are either in testing or on the drawing board. >> >> See: http://www.marssociety.org/ and http://www.marssociety.org.au/ and http://www.marshome.org/ for all the details. > >Given that the Martian atmosphere is so thin, wouldn't you expect >the radiation hazard on the surface to be greater than on Earth? >If so, can you really afford to have part of it in a multi-story >building? (or is that just for the farms?) >(Do the current Mars rovers have radiation detectors on board?) > > Not a problem Solar flares don't get through the atmosphere. Cosmic rays decay products do but the flux is perfectly vertical. Cosmic rays decay products can be stopped by several millimeters of lead on the rovers. Three to six cm of concrete or two feet of Mars dirt. The top floor of the multistory buildings will have plant and equipment or green houses not living space. The average airline pilot gets a cosmic ray dose in 5 years that is about the same as the Astronaughts would get in a year. Its not lethal and we can take stem cells from them before they go so we can fix them when they get back. PS the lifetime radiation dose of a Tibetan is greater than anyone in the space program. At high altitude the cosmic ray stuff gets to millions. The longest lived people in the world are all at high altitude so it can't be that bad. >[snip] >BTW it might be an idea to have 2 smaller reactors rather than 1 >large one. Then one can be left in orbit, while one lands. On the >trips out and back, both can be used in tandem. > >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk > >http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > >Competition provides the motivation, >Cooperation provides the means. > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 4 00:30:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA48UCbM025933; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 00:30:27 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA48UBNR025918; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 00:30:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 00:30:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: temalloy mail.usfamily.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 02:30:00 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: A low cost alternative to the space elevator Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64290 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mark Goldes posted >MPI has been supporting How Wachspress, an inventor who holds a >Patent and has done many experiments that suggest a free-flying >magnetic levitator can become practical, and provide a better path >to access to space. The concept of an electrically powered levitation system is very interesting. The proposed Space Elevator is neither fast or cheap. Now all we have to do is come up with a low weight electrical supply system. I just had an email exchange with Kiril Chukanov. He didn't hold out the hope of any help on the home heating system that I'd like to build however. >A levitator can be designed to take off and land at ordinary >airports, using the geomagnetic field as the stator of a very clever >electric motor. The geomagnetic field can be used for braking, >eliminating the need for heat shields. > I have to admit that the proposed system would be great if it worked. One of the local TV stations just did a story on the people who live under the approach to the new runway at our airport. >We anticipate that electricity for the propulsion system will be >supplied by our Magnetic Power Modules. As I mentioned above Mark, I'm looking for a home heating unit. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 4 00:36:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA48Zh15027963; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 00:35:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA48ZfIr027945; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 00:35:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 00:35:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: temalloy mail.usfamily.net Message-Id: Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 02:35:13 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: energy medicine and the bird flu Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id jA48ZJ25027852 Resent-Message-ID: <9MefoB.A.l0G.d1xaDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64291 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: One of my friends just sent me this. Parksie enjoys attacking energy medicine, well take this. In the 1918-19 flu epidemic, of the people who sought out conventional medical treatment, their mortality rate was over 40 percent. Of the people who did nothing, did not seek out any treatment, their mortality rate was about 15 percent. The people who sought out homeopathic care for their flu had a mortality rate of less than 1 percent. The above statistics are from pages 103-111 in the scholarly work, ˜The Homeopathic Treatment of Influenza, Surviving Influenza Epidemics and Pandemics Past, Present and Future with Homeopathy" by Sandra Perko, PhD, CCN, copyright 1999, Benchmark Homeopathic Publications. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 4 04:18:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA4CHa47025516; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 04:17:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA4CH7Ao025180; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 04:17:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 04:17:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=i/lP2hoVvWK29fjJpsMWOIUwnYiebZRgkiHDDCbu4cc8Gx/WBx4BhQqrEk3hVPw5; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220051154111614560 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: O. T. The Power of Hearing Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 05:16:14 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9407af849502865bb0523f81eeacec49151350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.80 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64292 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Here is a starter, Richard. A. J. Hudspeth is/was associated with the University of Texas. I've read quite a bit of his work. Hudspeth County in West Texas indicates his Texas roots. I'll stick by that 10e-21 watts per square centimeter electrical response even though the acoustic threshold for the outer ear bottoms out at 10e-17 watts per square centimeter. Note the "telepathic" ability of a dog to foretell of an impending epileptic attack. It seems that they can sense brain wave patterns as well as chemical cues. But they don't speak English yet. Have we lost this ability through the ages of "progress"? Taos NM was pretty quiet until about 1990. :-) Fred http://physicsweb.org/articles/world/15/5/8 "A hair bundle is an appendage measuring a few microns across that sticks up above the surface of every hair cell. It is composed of a bundle of columnar "stereocilia", which slope up against one another. The tip of each hair is connected to the next by a fine filament called a "tip link" (see figure 3). Shear flow in the cochlear fluid causes the whole bundle to deflect, with each stereocilium pivoting at its base so that the tip links get stretched. Each tip link connects directly to a tension-gated "transduction channel" in the cell membrane of the stereocilium, which admits potassium ions. So the deflection leads to a change in the ionic current that, in turn, alters the cell potential. "This very direct mechanism for converting motion into electrical signals was established by numerous researchers in the 1980s and 1990s. Jim Hudspeth, now at Rockefeller University, and David Corey of Harvard University made particularly important contributions by developing methods to manipulate frog hair bundles with microneedles and measure the transduction current." ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Here is a starter, Richard.
 
A. J. Hudspeth is/was associated with the University of Texas.
 
I've read quite a bit of his work.
 
Hudspeth County in West Texas indicates his Texas roots.
 
I'll stick by that 10e-21 watts per square centimeter electrical
response even though the acoustic threshold for the outer ear
bottoms out at 10e-17 watts per square centimeter.
 
Note the "telepathic" ability of a dog to foretell of an impending
epileptic attack.  It seems that they can sense brain wave patterns
as well as chemical cues.
 
But they don't speak English yet.
 
Have we lost this ability through the ages of "progress"?  
 
Taos NM was pretty quiet until about 1990.   :-)
 
Fred
 
 
"A hair bundle is an appendage measuring a few microns across that sticks up above the surface of every hair cell. It is composed of a bundle of columnar "stereocilia", which slope up against one another. The tip of each hair is connected to the next by a fine filament called a "tip link" (see figure 3). Shear flow in the cochlear fluid causes the whole bundle to deflect, with each stereocilium pivoting at its base so that the tip links get stretched. Each tip link connects directly to a tension-gated "transduction channel" in the cell membrane of the stereocilium, which admits potassium ions. So the deflection leads to a change in the ionic current that, in turn, alters the cell potential.

"This very direct mechanism for converting motion into electrical signals was established by numerous researchers in the 1980s and 1990s. Jim Hudspeth, now at Rockefeller University, and David Corey of Harvard University made particularly important contributions by developing methods to manipulate frog hair bundles with microneedles and measure the transduction current."

 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 4 07:00:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA4Exlno009784; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 07:00:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA4Exiqo009757; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 06:59:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 06:59:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051104094633.050caa80 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2005 09:59:18 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: energy medicine and the bird flu In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64293 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: >In the 1918-19 flu epidemic, of the people who sought out conventional >medical >treatment, their mortality rate was over 40 percent. Of the people who did >nothing, did not seek out any treatment, their mortality rate was about >15 percent. Beware of unexamined statistics. First of all, I doubt that the mortality rate was 40% anywhere in the U.S., except in isolated Inuit villages. 40% would rival the black plague, the worst disease in European or American history. Second, people who seek out medical treatment are usually very sick. People who were only mildly ill stay home. When there is no effective cure for a disease, the seriously sick patients are likely to die even though they go to a hospital. >The people who sought out homeopathic care for their flu had a mortality >rate of less than 1 percent. So did most people who sought out no cure whatever, especially if they were middle-aged or black and living in the East Coast. Overall the mortality rate was 2.5%, but that included many groups that were particularly vulnerable, such as vigorous, healthy young soldiers gathered together in camps or on troopships. The 1918 strain was particularly dangerous for healthy young people, just the opposite of most influenza types. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 4 07:26:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA4FQF66001640; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 07:26:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA4FQElG001617; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 07:26:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 07:26:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051104101824.050c9480 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2005 10:25:44 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: A low cost alternative to the space elevator In-Reply-To: References: <3921509.1131061484180.JavaMail.root mswamui-andean.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_3028062==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64294 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_3028062==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Mark Goldes wrote: >MPI has been supporting How Wachspress, an inventor who holds a Patent and >has done many experiments that suggest a free-flying magnetic levitator >can become practical, and provide a better path to access to space. > >A levitator can be designed to take off and land at ordinary airports, >using the geomagnetic field as the stator of a very clever electric motor. The geomagnetic field? 0.6 gauss at the maximum? That's preposterous. As Clarke wrote in "Profiles of the Future:" "The Earth's magnetic field is so extremely feeble (a toy magnet is thousands of times stronger) that it is not even worth considering. From time to time one hears optimistic talk of 'magnetic propulsion' for space vehicles, but this is a project somewhat comparable to escaping from Earth via a ladder made of cobwebs. Terrestrial magnetic forces are just about as tough as gossamer." You would have to have a ship that reacted against the field with a plate of hundreds of square kilometers, and the plate would have to weigh a few kilograms. - Jed --=====================_3028062==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Mark Goldes wrote:

MPI has been supporting How Wachspress, an inventor who holds a Patent and has done many experiments that suggest a free-flying magnetic levitator can become practical, and provide a better path to access to space.

A levitator can be designed to take off and land at ordinary airports, using the geomagnetic field as the stator of a very clever electric motor.

The geomagnetic field? 0.6 gauss at the maximum? That's preposterous. As Clarke wrote in "Profiles of the Future:"

"The Earth's magnetic field is so extremely feeble (a toy magnet is thousands of times stronger) that it is not even worth considering. From time to time one hears optimistic talk of 'magnetic propulsion' for space vehicles, but this is a project somewhat comparable to escaping from Earth via a ladder made of cobwebs. Terrestrial magnetic forces are just about as tough as gossamer."

You would have to have a ship that reacted against the field with a plate of hundreds of square kilometers, and the plate would have to weigh a few kilograms.

- Jed
--=====================_3028062==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 4 07:30:42 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA4FTuuX003469; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 07:30:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA4FTnDc003422; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 07:29:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 07:29:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <4enk62$cktbof mxip28a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.97,292,1125892800"; d="scan'208"; a="424587023:sNHT90042992" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: OrionWorks Organization: OrionWorks To: CC: Subject: Re: OT:Electrostatic Hover Cars Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 9:29:25 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64295 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Baron, That's quite a list of scholarly works. I only possess an associate degree in Data Processing and a BS in Art. Still, it didn't stop me from working on a project called WUPPE, the Wisconsin Ultraviolet Photo Polarimeter Experiment. This was a Space Shuttle project that eventually few in space a couple of times after I had moved on to other employment opportunities. Back then I was employed as a computer programmer ground support troglodyte for the Space Astronomy Lab in Madison Wisconsin. I was employed at the Lab back in the mid 80s. Speaking of mythic interpretations of reality have you ever read any of Terry Pratchett's Disk World series? Now, here's an individual who knows how to harness the power of myth! ...and, of course, least we forget Douglas Adams. You occasionally have the capacity to be ruthlessly honest about your shortcomings, which is a trait I wish more individuals possessed, including myself. My comments still stand. Learn to distinguish the difference between mythic and scientific fact, and I think you will reach a better understanding of yourself, your surroundings, and how not to be taken advantage of. Least I sound too arrogant, this suggestion applies to myself just as much as I'm suggesting it might apply to you. Just my two cents. BTW, I met Boyland back in the 90s. He struck me as a sincere fellow. Unfortunately, a cult grew around him, which is NOT what a therapist in his profession needs to cultivate in order to be taken seriously. He also got into professional trouble as the result of allegations brought up about his alleged behavior toward some of his patients in so-called social gatherings, the details of which I won't go into here. I could be wrong but I personally suspect he was used (without his understanding) to discredit a more serious study of the extraterrestrial subject. IWO, I suspect Boyland was "used" because he himself could not distinguish the difference between mythic and scientific facts. A less charitable opinion would be that he simply duped himself. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com Inform yourself before informing others, one at a time. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 4 08:28:01 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA4GRK2U029031; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 08:27:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA4GRHx3028993; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 08:27:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 08:27:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <005101c5e15c$89ce0bb0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: Zone refining for Reprocessing Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 08:26:40 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_004E_01C5E119.7B2EE4F0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <7wtpl.A.6EH.lv4aDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64296 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_004E_01C5E119.7B2EE4F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This is a continuation of the previous thread regarding the prospect for = an advanced, small, modular, safe and affordable nuclear reactor (rail = mounted). My apology for another long post as I am aware that this = subject is of limited interest to most readers - and that more than a = few are ingrained anti-nuclear anyway. That is understandable. We have = almost "blown it" for the past forty years.=20 It is a hybrid design which goes way beyond current thinking. It works = ONLY when ALL the pieces of the puzzle are put together in a unit, as = some of them individually do not look optimum. By my reckoning the = current crop of so-called "advanced designs" are deficient in too many = ways to mention - and are overly influenced by the entrenched and = powerful special interests of the GE, Westinghouse, & the DoE "club." = They are the problem, not the solution. A key detail in how one can achieve nearly complete fuel burnup, = starting with only natural Uranium, is in the absolute requirement for = an ongoing (partial) reprocessing system which is built into the reactor = itself. This idea is not novel, but has been written-off for years, under the = phony pretext of "non-proliferation" or mostly because partial = reprocessing via the well-known technique of *Zone Refining,* (which is = only "easy" technique) - this process only gets rid of the lighter = fission ash and not the heavier poisons. Neither the military, nor the = fuel suppliers like it, and it has been therefore "marginalized" by = special interests. When fission occurs, there are at least two molecules of "ash" which = often are huge "neutron poisons" (high cross-section for thermal = neutrons) and this inevitably dictates almost all of the subsequent = design choices, and of course this usually eliminates natural Uranium as = the choice fuel, despite its 10,000 to one net cost advantage (net = meaning to society as a whole).=20 If it were not for these fission poisons accumulating, then we would = never need to refuel the reactor, nor to store/bury old nuclear fuel - = we could just burn it all, while fuel cost would be negligible, and most = of the power for the USA would be nuclear already. The kicker is "heavy = water"... but that is also becomes the beauty of the overall system. = (more on that in a subsequent post). This being a forum where anything = to do with deuterium is of interest, then even applying it to "hot = fusion" should have some backing - not to mention that the very reason = why it works so well (in part) - neutron stripping - is or can be = related to ongoing electrolytic research. In a later post, I am going to frame-up some basic speculation on the = "next-step" in the evolution towards a more "active" heavy water = moderating core, which uses 7-lithium and other LENR techniques to = enhance neutron production.. IOW what I am saying is that the early choices, in the USA, to use = enriched fuel and zero reprocessing and zero burnup of accumulated = wastes - these terrible but understandable choices - have now almost = doomed to the industry. In a perfect world, we should be getting almost = all of our power from nuclear. It is the most ecological choice - done = correctly. It is a terrible choice, done incorrectly. We are stuck in = between and falling toward the incorrect extreme. This past non-choice (regarding the possibility of partial reprocessing = by zone refining) was due to the fact that historically, it was of = negative interest to the military industrial complex. This is because = they wanted to also segregate-out the fissile material, and also to get = rid of the transuranics at the same time - which are no-good for = bombs... and/or as for the companies like GE - this prohibits them form = maximizing profits. Zone refining is contra-indicated for both poles of = special interest, and was never pursued as actively as it should. The = so-called neutron "poisons" are found on both sides of the density = spectrum - and zone refining generally only allows removal of the = low-density variety. Had civilian power-producers been involved from the start they would = have said - "WAIT" that is what I need - get your hand off my valuable = so-called "spent fuel" (only 5% is actually "spent") and give me back = this very valuable resource, and let me reprocess it for further use = using zone refining - after all, I don't give a rat's-ass about = transuranics. We will just burn them too." This scenario never happened, and only a handful of reactor designers = today even realize that if you provide an 1) unpressurized reactor (for continuous fuel removal) 2) natural U fueled-reactor 3) automatically controlled fuel removal and addition subsystem, and 4) continuous staged zone refining 5) lots of heavy water moderator that essentially you can breed far more fuel than you burn, without = "fast" neutrons (although some are helpful and can be designed into the = concept) and also get nearly complete burn-up... and also put your toxic = nuclear waste into an outer part of the reactor where it will be = neutralized without quenching the criticality. Once criticality is = achieved, all subsequent neutrons are "free," in one sense, and any = reactor should be amenable to burning up its own waste. Then by this = simple (but complicated) expedient of automatic and continuous zone = refining, you can turn any reactor into a ideal breeder reactor but with = the secondary problem that you deny special interests their huge fees = for refueling and this concept is very threatening.=20 The key feature of this hybrid concept, then MUST include a closely = coupled fuel-cycle in an unpressurized reactor for ongoing removal, = purification, and recycling of the natural uranium fuel which ideally is = in a liquid alloy or eutectic form, so that it can be removed by a "cold = plug". BUT this doesn't not need to be "complete" reprocessing system, = as is often envisioned. That is where the tonnage of heavy water come = in. As for the Candu itself, it is not a true breeder - but goes part of = the way there - getting its makeup neutrons largely from the moderator = itself. If it had been designed to be unpressurized (say molten salt = cooled or liquid metal cooled, then it could be amenable to the kind of = minimal ongoing reprocessing I have mentioned above. This would make it = a into a strong breeder and allow 90% burnup. It all fits together like hand-in-glove and consequently you have to = start out the design process with the mind-set that you are going to = either eliminate the steam cycle altogether, or to segregate the steam = system - and power it with a secondary no-radioactive molten-salt heat = transfer carrier.=20 It is really impossibly difficult to safely depressurize and = repressurize any reactor on a continuous daily basis for ongoing fuel = removal and replacement. Note that this high-burnup scheme is based on continuous zone refining = of only a portion of the fuel on a daily (night time) basis. You = (robotically) remove - say 1-2 percent of the fuel inventory per day = and zone-refine it, in step one - taking off say 10% of the 1% and = returning the rest with an added makeup. The reactor is operating all = this while on lower than normal power. Then...on a 24/7 basis, you are also doing the same type of zone = refining with all of the accumulated ash laden parts of all the previous = days - but in stages. Eventually you have gotten most of the less-dense = ash out, based solely on density gradient, and returned most of the = useable fuel, even if it takes a few dozen stages. After all the = initial ash content is only going to be in the few PPM. There is not as = complicated as it sounds and there is little actual waste. This = technology is NOW being used in the processing of semiconductor ingots = all the time and you can purify to PPB levels. You never need a complete = refueling. After a few years the reactor reaches an equilibrium state = where the surplus of bred-fuel perfectly balances the stasis requirement = for the burring-up of the retained transuranic poisons, and from there = on - you essentially can burn a high proportion ~90% of the entire = initial inventory. In theory ;-) Do the national albs know about this? Of course they do, and = occasionally it slips out in a patent application like Application # = 20040062340, in 2004 for "Self-regulating nuclear power module" LOS = ALAMOS NATIONAL LABORATORY. Sooner or later some bureaucrat will cleanse = this patent of certain language such as: "One of the remarkable advantages of this reactor concept is the novelty = of the fuel form. The hydride chemistry essentially does an end run = around many of the problems of nuclear fuel reprocessing. At the end of = the useful life of the original charge of fuel, the module will be = returned to the factory .... leaving uranium metal. This metal can be = stripped of its fission product contaminants by simple zone refining." We have known about this technique for forty years, kept it secret or = marginalized it, and know that it will allow natural Uranium to become = the best possible reactor fuel - plus allow complete burnup of all = waste...yet?? For a fraction of the cost of the Nevada "crypt" we could have years ago = nailed many problems with one solution. Why, then, has this technique = been suppressed? For that answer you will need to look at the balance sheets of GE and = its minions who control the industry, and the approximately 50 billion = in profits (in current dollars) over the past years from nuclear fuel = reprocessing... which would have been reduced to zero - had power = producers had any say-so in reactor-design from the git-go.=20 Who says politics and science don't mingle? Jones ------=_NextPart_000_004E_01C5E119.7B2EE4F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This is a continuation of the previous = thread=20 regarding the prospect for an advanced, small, modular, safe and = affordable=20 nuclear reactor (rail mounted). My apology for another long post as I am = aware=20 that this subject is of limited interest to most readers - and that more = than a=20 few are ingrained anti-nuclear anyway. That is understandable. We have = almost=20 "blown it" for the past forty years. 
 
It is a hybrid design which goes way = beyond current=20 thinking. It works ONLY when ALL the pieces of the puzzle are put = together=20 in a unit, as some of them individually do not look = optimum. By my=20 reckoning the current crop of so-called "advanced designs" are = deficient in=20 too many ways to mention - and are overly influenced by the = entrenched and=20 powerful special interests of the GE, Westinghouse, & the DoE = "club." They=20 are the problem, not the solution.
 
A key detail in how one can achieve = nearly complete=20 fuel burnup, starting with only natural Uranium, is in the absolute = requirement=20 for an ongoing (partial) reprocessing system which is built into the = reactor=20 itself.
 
This idea is not novel, but has been = written-off=20 for years, under the phony pretext of "non-proliferation" or = mostly because=20 partial reprocessing via the well-known technique of *Zone Refining,* = (which is=20 only "easy" technique) - this process only gets rid of the lighter = fission=20 ash and not the heavier poisons. Neither the military, nor the fuel = suppliers=20 like it, and it has been therefore "marginalized" by special=20 interests.
 
When fission occurs, there are at least = two=20 molecules of "ash" which often are huge "neutron poisons" (high = cross-section=20 for thermal neutrons) and this inevitably dictates almost all of the = subsequent=20 design choices, and of course this usually eliminates natural Uranium as = the=20 choice fuel, despite its 10,000 to one net cost advantage (net meaning = to=20 society as a whole). 
 
If it were not for these fission = poisons=20 accumulating, then we would never need to refuel the reactor, nor to = store/bury=20 old nuclear fuel - we could just burn it all, while fuel cost would be=20 negligible, and most of the power for the USA would be nuclear already. = The=20 kicker is "heavy water"... but that is also becomes the beauty of the = overall=20 system. (more on that in a subsequent post). This being a forum where = anything=20 to do with deuterium is of interest, then even applying it to "hot = fusion"=20 should have some backing - not to mention that the very reason why it = works so=20 well (in part) - neutron stripping - is or can be related to ongoing=20 electrolytic research.
 
In a later post, I am going to frame-up = some basic=20 speculation on the "next-step" in the evolution towards a=20 more "active" heavy water moderating core, which uses 7-lithium and = other=20 LENR techniques to enhance neutron production..
 
IOW what I am saying is that the early = choices, in=20 the USA, to use enriched fuel and zero reprocessing and zero burnup = of=20 accumulated wastes - these terrible but understandable choices - have=20 now almost doomed to the industry. In a perfect world, we should be = getting=20 almost all of our power from nuclear. It is the most ecological choice - = done=20 correctly. It is a terrible choice, done incorrectly. We are stuck in = between=20 and falling toward the incorrect extreme.
 
This past non-choice (regarding = the=20 possibility of partial reprocessing by zone refining) was due to the = fact that=20 historically, it was of negative interest to the military = industrial complex. This is because they wanted to also = segregate-out the=20 fissile material, and also to get rid of the transuranics at the same = time -=20 which are no-good for bombs... and/or as for the companies like GE = - this=20 prohibits them form maximizing profits. Zone refining is = contra-indicated for=20 both poles of special interest, and was never pursued as actively as it = should.=20 The so-called neutron "poisons" are found on both sides of the density = spectrum=20 - and zone refining generally only allows removal of the low-density=20 variety.
 
Had civilian power-producers been = involved from the=20 start they would have said - "WAIT" that is what I need - get your hand = off my=20 valuable so-called "spent fuel" (only 5% is actually "spent") and give = me back=20 this very valuable resource, and let me reprocess it for further use = using zone=20 refining - after all, I don't give a rat's-ass about transuranics. = We will=20 just burn them too."
 
This scenario never happened, and only = a handful of=20 reactor designers today even realize that if you provide an
1) unpressurized reactor (for = continuous fuel=20 removal)
2) natural U = fueled-reactor
3) automatically controlled fuel = removal and=20 addition subsystem, and
4) continuous staged zone = refining
5) lots of heavy water = moderator
 
that essentially you can breed far more = fuel than=20 you burn, without "fast" neutrons (although some are helpful and can be = designed=20 into the concept) and also get nearly complete burn-up... and also put = your=20 toxic nuclear waste into an outer part of the reactor where it will = be=20 neutralized without quenching the criticality. Once criticality is = achieved, all=20 subsequent neutrons are "free," in one sense, and any reactor should be = amenable=20 to burning up its own waste. Then = by this=20 simple (but complicated) expedient of automatic and continuous zone = refining,=20 you can turn any reactor into a ideal breeder reactor but with the = secondary=20 problem that you deny special interests their huge fees for refueling = and=20 this concept is very threatening. =
 
The key feature of this hybrid = concept, then=20 MUST include a closely coupled fuel-cycle in an unpressurized = reactor for=20 ongoing removal, purification, and recycling of the natural uranium fuel = which=20 ideally is in a liquid alloy or eutectic form, so that it can be removed = by a=20 "cold plug". BUT this doesn't not need to be "complete" reprocessing = system, as=20 is often envisioned. That is where the tonnage of heavy water come = in. As=20 for the Candu itself, it is not a true breeder - but goes part of the = way there=20 - getting its makeup neutrons largely from the moderator itself. If it = had=20 been designed to be unpressurized (say molten salt cooled or=20 liquid metal cooled, then it could be amenable to the kind of=20 minimal ongoing reprocessing I have mentioned above. This would = make it=20 a  into a strong breeder and allow 90% burnup.
 
It all fits together like hand-in-glove = and=20 consequently you have to start out the design process with the mind-set = that you=20 are going to either eliminate the steam cycle altogether, or to = segregate the=20 steam system - and power it with a secondary no-radioactive=20 molten-salt heat transfer carrier.

It is really impossibly difficult to safely depressurize and=20 repressurize any reactor on a continuous daily basis for ongoing = fuel=20 removal and replacement.

Note that this high-burnup scheme = is based=20 on continuous zone refining of only a portion of the fuel on a = daily (night=20 time) basis. You (robotically) remove - say 1-2 percent of  the = fuel=20 inventory per day and zone-refine it, in step one - taking off say 10% = of the 1%=20 and returning the rest with an added makeup. The reactor is operating = all this=20 while on lower than normal power.
 
Then...on a 24/7 basis, you are = also=20 doing the same type of zone refining with all of the accumulated = ash laden=20 parts of all the previous days - but in stages. Eventually you = have=20 gotten most of the less-dense ash out, based solely on density gradient, = and=20 returned most of the useable fuel,  even if it takes a few dozen = stages.=20 After all the initial ash content is only going to be in the few PPM. = There=20 is not as complicated as it sounds and there is little actual = waste.=20 This technology is NOW being used in the processing of semiconductor = ingots all=20 the time and you can purify to PPB levels. You never need a complete = refueling.=20 After a few years the reactor reaches an equilibrium state where the = surplus of=20 bred-fuel perfectly balances the stasis requirement for the = burring-up of=20 the retained transuranic poisons, and from there on - you essentially = can burn a=20 high proportion ~90% of the entire initial inventory. In theory = ;-)
 
Do the national albs know about this? = Of course=20 they do, and occasionally it slips out in a patent application like = Application=20 # 20040062340, in 2004 for "Self-regulating nuclear power = module"  LOS=20 ALAMOS NATIONAL LABORATORY. Sooner or = later some=20 bureaucrat will cleanse this patent of certain language such as:

"One of the remarkable advantages of this reactor concept is = the=20 novelty of the fuel form. The hydride chemistry essentially does an end = run=20 around many of the problems of nuclear fuel reprocessing. At the end of = the=20 useful life of the original charge of fuel, the module will be returned = to the=20 factory .... leaving uranium metal. This metal can be stripped of its = fission=20 product contaminants by simple zone refining."
 
We have known about this technique for forty years, kept it secret = or=20 marginalized it, and know that it will allow natural Uranium to become = the best=20 possible reactor fuel - plus allow complete burnup of all = waste...yet??
 
For a fraction of the cost of the Nevada "crypt" we could have = years ago=20 nailed many problems with one solution. Why, then, has = this technique been=20 suppressed?
 
For that answer you will need to look at the balance sheets of = GE and=20 its minions who control the industry, and the approximately 50 billion = in=20 profits (in current dollars) over the past years from nuclear fuel=20 reprocessing... which would have been reduced to zero - had power = producers had=20 any say-so in reactor-design from the git-go.
 
Who says politics and science don't mingle?
 
Jones






  
------=_NextPart_000_004E_01C5E119.7B2EE4F0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 4 09:04:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA4H43oI025471; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 09:04:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA4H38Ye024905; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 09:03:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 09:03:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <006201c5e161$8b128050$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <005101c5e15c$89ce0bb0$6401a8c0 NuDell> Subject: Re: Zone refining for Reprocessing Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 09:02:30 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_005F_01C5E11E.7C601FB0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64297 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_005F_01C5E11E.7C601FB0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable sorry for a number of small errors in the previous posting, like = "molecules" instead of "atoms" and a few other tell-tale traits of mild = dyslexia. My editor didn't show up for work this morning.... ;-)=20 I am making corrections, and if anyone wants a revised version, let me = know off-list, so as not to gooble-up too much band-width. ------=_NextPart_000_005F_01C5E11E.7C601FB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
sorry for a number of small errors in = the previous=20 posting, like "molecules" instead of "atoms" and a few other = tell-tale=20 traits of mild dyslexia.
 
My editor didn't show up for work this = morning....=20 ;-) 
 
I am making corrections, and if anyone = wants a=20 revised version, let me know off-list, so as not to gooble-up too much=20 band-width.
------=_NextPart_000_005F_01C5E11E.7C601FB0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 4 09:24:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA4HNEcL002244; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 09:23:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA4HMNYw001342; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 09:22:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 09:22:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <001b01c5e164$369dfd30$47037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Zone refining for Reprocessing Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 11:21:36 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0017_01C5E131.EB84C040"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.1 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE,RICH,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64298 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C5E131.EB84C040 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0018_01C5E131.EB84C040" ------=_NextPart_001_0018_01C5E131.EB84C040 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankJones, No apologies required when you keep hammering home the mechanics and the = science of this energy theme. Thanks for the insight that hopefully will be a prod if for no other = purpose than to focus attention on the progress being made in France and = Canada. We have stumblebums in Washington that are ducking into cracks. Wasn't = " Scooter" Libby the lawyer that got Mark Rich the pardon by Clinton. = Talk about weird. People complain about the "looting" that happened in = New Orleans after the storm but the real looting has been in Washington. = No wonder that progress in energy has fled the USA.. We are now sending = 1 billion dollars per day to Iraq ( Bill O'Reilly show report) and a = major part of each dollar is not being accounted for. If Jones and = Richard tried this stunt they would have us both serving in prison 35 = years for illegal competition . The mention of the word Westinghouse brought my thoughts to the people = that led Westinghouse down the tube. In the early 1970's , our systems = shop in Houston worked very close with some of the brightest at = Westinghouse. They had the reputation of having the best engineering = minds in the business. Within 3 years every one of the brightest had = left Westinghouse as the company started going down the tube. They had it all, the magic and the resources.. but... squandered it all = away with " get rich quick" schemes and discarding science while = focusing on the stock price. They were going to corner the world market = for uranium ore and wound up on the trash heap of missed opportunities. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0018_01C5E131.EB84C040 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Jones,
 
No apologies required when you keep hammering home the mechanics = and the=20 science of this energy theme.
Thanks for the insight that hopefully will be a prod if for no = other=20 purpose than to focus attention on the progress being made in France and = Canada.
 We have stumblebums in Washington that are ducking into = cracks.=20 Wasn't " Scooter" Libby the lawyer that got Mark Rich the pardon by = Clinton.=20 Talk about weird. People complain about the "looting" that happened in = New=20 Orleans after the storm but the real looting has been in Washington. No = wonder=20 that progress in energy has fled the USA.. We are now sending 1 billion = dollars=20 per day to Iraq ( Bill O'Reilly show report) and a major part of each = dollar is=20 not being accounted for. If Jones and Richard tried this stunt they = would have=20 us both serving in prison 35 years for illegal competition .
 
The mention of the word Westinghouse brought my = thoughts to the=20 people that led Westinghouse down the tube. In the early 1970's , our = systems=20 shop in Houston worked very close with some of the brightest at = Westinghouse.=20 They had the reputation of having the best engineering minds in the = business.=20 Within 3 years every one of the brightest had left Westinghouse as the = company=20 started going down the tube.
 
They had it all, the magic and the resources.. but... squandered it = all=20 away with " get rich quick" schemes and discarding science while = focusing on the=20 stock price. They were going to corner the world market for uranium ore = and=20 wound up on the trash heap of missed opportunities.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0018_01C5E131.EB84C040-- ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C5E131.EB84C040 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001601c5e164$35eb27f0$47037841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C5E131.EB84C040-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 4 09:25:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA4HOVjx003612; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 09:24:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA4HOP4n003523; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 09:24:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 09:24:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: ThomasClark123 aol.com Message-ID: <9d.6c32499a.309cf315 aol.com> Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 12:23:33 EST Subject: Re: Deriving Power from Atmospheric Pressure Differences To: vortex-L eskimo.com CC: ThomasClark123 aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1131125013" X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5039 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64299 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -------------------------------1131125013 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/27/2005 5:18:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, johnwc patmedia.net writes: Deriving Power from Atmospheric Pressure Differences over Geographically-Spaced Sites New method of power generation will harness the difference in atmospheric pressure between locations 100 to 200 miles apart, with reliability comparable to coal, nuclear, gas, and hydro, but at a cost substantially lower, and with no pollution. Thanks you just gave me some ideas on how John Keely technologies may work by using pressure differences in pressurized pipes to power the devices. Baron Von Volsung, http://www.rhfweb.com/baron, Email: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html President Thomas D. Clark, Email: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html, Personal Web Page: http://www.rhfweb.com/personal New Age Production's Inc., http://www.rhfweb.com/newage Star Haven Community Services, at http://www.rhfweb.com/sh Radiation Health Foundation Trust at http://www.rhfweb.com/ Making a difference one person at a time Get informed. Inform others. -------------------------------1131125013 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In a message dated 10/27/2005 5:18:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, johnwc = patmedia.net writes:
Deriving Power from Atmospheric Pressure Diffe= rences over Geographically-Spaced Sites

New method of power generatio= n will harness the difference in atmospheric pressure between locations 100=20= to 200 miles apart, with reliability comparable to coal, nuclear, gas, and h= ydro, but at a cost substantially lower, and with no pollution.
Thanks you just gave me some ideas on how John Keely technologies=20= may work by using pressure differences in pressurized pipes to power the dev= ices.
 
Baron Von Volsung, http://www.rhfweb.com/baron, Email: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html
President Thomas D. Clark,= Email: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html,
Pers= onal Web Page: http://www.rhfweb.com/personal
New Age Productio= n's Inc., http://www.rhfweb.com/newage
Star Haven Community Service= s, at = http://www.rhfweb.com/sh
Radiation Health Foundation Trust at http://www.rhfweb= .com/

Making a difference one person at a time
Get informed= . Inform others.
-------------------------------1131125013-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 4 10:13:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA4ICFG3002885; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 10:12:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA4IC8IA002801; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 10:12:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 10:12:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: ThomasClark123 aol.com Message-ID: <25e.2dcb49.309cfe54 aol.com> Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 13:11:32 EST Subject: Re: OT:Electrostatic Hover Cars To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1131127892" X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5039 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64301 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -------------------------------1131127892 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/4/2005 10:31:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, orionworks charter.net writes: Speaking of mythic interpretations of reality have you ever read any of Terry Pratchett's Disk World series? Now, here's an individual who knows how to harness the power of myth! ...and, of course, least we forget Douglas Adams. Thanks for the references to the above authors. I will look into them. A series of books I really enjoyed was the River World Series by Philip Jose Farmer, which explained the history of Earth in a unique way by traveling along a million mile river that represented time travel through history to the end of history. You stated that you were an artist in addition to a computer programmer. Being an amateur programmer, I have been very interested in animation art, and virtual reality programming, to program virtual reality worlds that can be experienced by the viewers, which I feel will be the next trend in the entertainment industry. One of Bill Gates former employees wrote a book on game programming in which he explained the myth that long ago in unrecorded past history, the art of computer technology had been so advanced that they could literally create reality and life from computer programs and game animations that actually created the reality in which they lived. I have been focusing on myths to much as you suggest, and I should try to think more about the present and future than the past. In my case, perhaps I may have been tricked and seduced into walking into another if not many other virtual reality timelines, where all things are possible, and what we think may come to be almost instantly. Those who have tricked me, may be encouraging me to focus more on mythology than I should, to bring the myths of long bygone days back to life at times if not to idealize them and improve upon them, which is much like the Never Ending Story Novels where the reader of the book becomes part of the book to create the history, present and future around them as they read the book. The Sir Gewain and Green Knight myths mentions the Lost Land of Lionesse, which was part of Atlantis at one time, which also claims that some events in the past may also occur again in the future, as if the future creates the past but some pasts and futures are hidden from us unless we choose to be part of them much like the Lost Land of Lioness. Since there may be many different pasts on Earth, then also there may be many different futures. We all may be in a time in history presently, were we may be choosing and fighting over which past and which future may come to be in our present and in our local region on Earth. Different regions on Earth each have different cultures, histories, pasts, and futures. Certainly those who do not prefer one past history, may deny its existence to hope to prevent its present and future. Baron Von Volsung, http://www.rhfweb.com/baron, Email: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html President Thomas D. Clark, Email: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html, Personal Web Page: http://www.rhfweb.com/personal New Age Production's Inc., http://www.rhfweb.com/newage Star Haven Community Services, at http://www.rhfweb.com/sh Radiation Health Foundation Trust at http://www.rhfweb.com/ Making a difference one person at a time Get informed. Inform others. -------------------------------1131127892 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In a message dated 11/4/2005 10:31:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, orionwo= rks charter.net writes:
Speaking of mythic interpretations of reality=20= have you ever read any of Terry Pratchett's Disk World series? Now, here's a= n individual who knows how to harness the power of myth! ...and, of course,=20= least we forget Douglas Adams.
Thanks for the references to the above authors. I will look into them.&= nbsp; A series of books I really enjoyed was the River World Series by Phili= p Jose Farmer, which explained the history of Earth in a unique way by trave= ling along a million mile river that represented time travel through history= to the end of history.   
 
You stated that you were an artist in addition to a computer programmer= .  Being an amateur programmer, I have been very interested in animatio= n art, and virtual reality programming, to program virtual reality worlds th= at can be experienced by the viewers, which I feel will be the next trend in= the entertainment industry.  One of Bill Gates former employees wrote=20= a book on game programming in which he explained the myth that long ago in u= nrecorded past history, the art of computer technology had been so advanced=20= that they could literally create reality and life from computer programs and= game animations that actually created the reality in which they lived.
 
I have been focusing on myths to much as you suggest, and I should try=20= to think more about the present and future than the past.  In my case,=20= perhaps I may have been tricked and seduced into walking into another if not= many other virtual reality timelines, where all things are possible, a= nd what we think may come to be almost instantly.  Those who have trick= ed me, may be encouraging me to focus more on mythology than I should, to br= ing the myths of long bygone days back to life at times if not to ideal= ize them and improve upon them, which is much like the Never Ending Story No= vels where the reader of the book becomes part of the book to create the his= tory, present and future around them as they read the book.  The Sir Ge= wain and Green Knight myths mentions the Lost Land of Lionesse, which was pa= rt of Atlantis at one time, which also claims that some events in the past m= ay also occur again in the future, as if the future creates the past but som= e pasts and futures are hidden from us unless we choose to be part= of them much like the Lost Land of Lioness.  Since there may be m= any different pasts on Earth, then also there may be many different futures.=   We all may be in a time in history presently, were we may be choosing= and fighting over which past and which future may come to be in our present= and in our local region on Earth.  Different regions on Earth each hav= e different cultures, histories, pasts, and futures. Certainly those who do=20= not prefer one past history, may deny its existence to hope to prevent its p= resent and future.
 
Baron Von Volsung, http://www.rhfweb.com/baron, Email: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html
President Thomas D. Clark,= Email: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html,
Pers= onal Web Page: http://www.rhfweb.com/personal
New Age Productio= n's Inc., http://www.rhfweb.com/newage
Star Haven Community Service= s, at = http://www.rhfweb.com/sh
Radiation Health Foundation Trust at http://www.rhfweb= .com/

Making a difference one person at a time
Get informed= . Inform others.
-------------------------------1131127892-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 4 10:13:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA4ICFdV002877; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 10:12:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA4IC6Ae002762; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 10:12:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 10:12:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <008c01c5e16b$2e7188f0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <001b01c5e164$369dfd30$47037841 xptower> Subject: OT: Tails of the "Rich" and Famous Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 10:11:30 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64300 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Blank----- Original Message ----- From: RC Macaulay "Wasn't " Scooter" Libby the lawyer that got Mark Rich the pardon by Clinton. Talk about weird." ...wow, talk about weird-than-weird, not to mention "strange bedfellows". I didn't realize this - but: Scotter also served as staff director for the Cox Commission, a Clinton-era Congressionally mandated study group - which promoted the idea of a future conflict with China, along the lines of Bernard Lewis and Samuel Huntington's wild call for a "Clash of Civilizations" war between the West on the one side, and the Islamic world and China on the other. But Lewis Libby's real claim to fame, prior to finally getting caught, appears to his 18-year collaboration with Russian Mafiya "godfather" Marc Rich. As an understudy to Washington power lawyer Leonard Garment, Libby was the personal attorney for Rich from 1985, shortly after Rich fled the United States to avoid criminal prosecution for tax evasion and "trading with the enemy"—for illegal oil dealings with the Khomeini regime in Iran, while they were holding American hostages. " http://www.libertyforum.org/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=news_government&Number=294091726 Hey, Vo's - let's hear your Top ten list of "Strange bedfellows" I'll start things off in a non-partisan way with 10. Dubya and Conde 9. Bill and Hillary 8. Bill and Scooter 7. Michael Jackson and Elizabeth Taylor 6. Rock Hudson and Doris Day (who woulda ever guessed?) 5. Anwar al-Sadat and Menachem Begin any takers?? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 4 11:12:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA4JBcea010511; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 11:11:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA4JBUSu010426; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 11:11:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 11:11:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [64.174.37.158] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes msn.com] X-Sender: mgoldes msn.com In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20051104101824.050c9480 pop.mindspring.com> From: "Mark Goldes" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A low cost alternative to the space elevator Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2005 11:10:50 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Nov 2005 19:10:51.0735 (UTC) FILETIME=[78FE5670:01C5E173] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64302 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed, Geomagnetic propulsion is based on the use of the earth's magnetic field as a force field analogous to the stator of an electric motor. Each such motor corresponds to the rotor of a conventional electric motor, propelled by interacting force fields as instructed by a computer. The patented Free-Flying Magnetic Levitator, as well as more recent designs, make use of the very weak geomagnetic field. Geomagnetism averages a mere .5 gauss in magnetic field strength. At first glance it seems impossible to power any kind of vehicle by interaction with this weak field. However, it is useful to imagine that the interaction of two magnetic fields exists at those points where the densities of the fields involved are equal. In effect, it is as through the small artificial field source expands itself into a huge magnetic balloon, because of the low density of the earth's magnetic field. Cohering the seemingly insignificant forces that act upon every point on the surface of the balloon, yields a considerable resultant force. It is this surprisingly large force that can be harnessed to propel an air or spacecraft. An analogy is the well known passenger carrying balloon. The differential air pressure on any square inch of the balloon's surface is very small. But, the large area provides substantial lift. Ultraconductors provide extremely high current density. Once they are available as wire, with adequate funding in about three years, they will be an ideal material for the windings of motors that can provide geomagnetic propulsion. Mark >From: Jed Rothwell >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com >To: vortex-L eskimo.com >Subject: Re: A low cost alternative to the space elevator >Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2005 10:25:44 -0500 > >Mark Goldes wrote: > >>MPI has been supporting How Wachspress, an inventor who holds a Patent and >>has done many experiments that suggest a free-flying magnetic levitator >>can become practical, and provide a better path to access to space. >> >>A levitator can be designed to take off and land at ordinary airports, >>using the geomagnetic field as the stator of a very clever electric motor. > >The geomagnetic field? 0.6 gauss at the maximum? That's preposterous. As >Clarke wrote in "Profiles of the Future:" > >"The Earth's magnetic field is so extremely feeble (a toy magnet is >thousands of times stronger) that it is not even worth considering. From >time to time one hears optimistic talk of 'magnetic propulsion' for space >vehicles, but this is a project somewhat comparable to escaping from Earth >via a ladder made of cobwebs. Terrestrial magnetic forces are just about as >tough as gossamer." > >You would have to have a ship that reacted against the field with a plate >of hundreds of square kilometers, and the plate would have to weigh a few >kilograms. > >- Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 4 11:32:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA4JW7Fo020476; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 11:32:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA4JW6XZ020463; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 11:32:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 11:32:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051104142241.043757e0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2005 14:31:36 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: A low cost alternative to the space elevator In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051104101824.050c9480 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <9pjDWB.A.r_E.1c7aDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64303 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mark Goldes wrote: >Geomagnetic propulsion is based on the use of the earth's magnetic field >as a force field analogous to the stator of an electric motor. I understand that. You might compare it to a linear motor railroad. >In effect, it is as through the small artificial field source expands >itself into a huge magnetic balloon, because of the low density of the >earth's magnetic field. Instead of using a physical plate you are making a huge virtual magnetic plate. How huge? It would have to hundreds of square kilometers, wouldn't it? How much energy does it take to make such a gigantic field? >Cohering the seemingly insignificant forces that act upon every point on >the surface of the balloon, yields a considerable resultant force. The forces that act on the balloon appear to be orders of magnitude stronger than those you propose to harness. Helium balloons can be very small, and I have made functional toy hot air balloons around 2 m tall, out of paper. What is the smallest magnetic field you can harness to launch a toy lifter of this design? You (or the inventor) would have a great deal more credibility if you can demonstrate the principle in a toy. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 4 12:01:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA4K0uZP009830; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 12:01:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA4K0TKa009367; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 12:00:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 12:00:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [64.174.37.158] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes msn.com] X-Sender: mgoldes msn.com In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20051104142241.043757e0 pop.mindspring.com> From: "Mark Goldes" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A low cost alternative to the space elevator Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2005 11:59:44 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Nov 2005 19:59:45.0780 (UTC) FILETIME=[4DD21340:01C5E17A] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64304 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed, A toy is possible and likely to be a product in about a year. This will utilize ferromagnetic material which is quite marginal when compared with Ultraconductors. Size does not appear to be a factor. Quite small motors have been used in experiments. That is what makes this so interesting a technology. Mark >From: Jed Rothwell >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com >To: vortex-L eskimo.com >Subject: Re: A low cost alternative to the space elevator >Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2005 14:31:36 -0500 > >Mark Goldes wrote: > >>Geomagnetic propulsion is based on the use of the earth's magnetic field >>as a force field analogous to the stator of an electric motor. > >I understand that. You might compare it to a linear motor railroad. > > >>In effect, it is as through the small artificial field source expands >>itself into a huge magnetic balloon, because of the low density of the >>earth's magnetic field. > >Instead of using a physical plate you are making a huge virtual magnetic >plate. How huge? It would have to hundreds of square kilometers, wouldn't >it? How much energy does it take to make such a gigantic field? > > >>Cohering the seemingly insignificant forces that act upon every point on >>the surface of the balloon, yields a considerable resultant force. > >The forces that act on the balloon appear to be orders of magnitude >stronger than those you propose to harness. Helium balloons can be very >small, and I have made functional toy hot air balloons around 2 m tall, out >of paper. What is the smallest magnetic field you can harness to launch a >toy lifter of this design? You (or the inventor) would have a great deal >more credibility if you can demonstrate the principle in a toy. > >- Jed > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 4 12:18:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA4KHiE6025697; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 12:17:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA4KELBH022469; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 12:14:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 12:14:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=OmJt4QHwnc++aS1nJ1OPkIf65wUa6vXYOPLO48IipYGeaxpDzdkBpC4XgZLL/rpX; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220051154191327220 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Double Positronium Molecules Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 13:13:27 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94053ce0f63f14a61716b0c9ea763ed0d05350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.165.130 Resent-Message-ID: <14LNMC.A.0eF.ZE8aDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64305 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Some news is good news. http://www.spacedaily.com/news/cosmology-05zc.html ""Our research also gives the first hint of the presence of double positronium molecules, each of which is made up of two electrons and two positrons,""said Allen Mills, professor of physics and leader of the research project." ""This kind of matter-antimatter pairing has never been formed or studied in the laboratory until now, and paves the way for a new field of study on its properties."" Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Some news is good news.
 

""Our research also gives the first hint of the presence of double positronium molecules, each of which is made up of two electrons and two positrons,""said Allen Mills, professor of physics and leader of the research project."

""This kind of matter-antimatter pairing has never been formed or studied in the laboratory until now, and paves the way for a new field of study on its properties.""

Fred
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 4 13:03:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA4L307H028346; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 13:03:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA4L2w8N028332; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 13:02:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 13:02:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <002d01c5e183$128ccd30$47037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: O.T.: Tails of the "Rich" and famous Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 15:02:30 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0029_01C5E150.C76EFC60" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.9 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE,J_CHICKENPOX_22, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64306 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C5E150.C76EFC60 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_002A_01C5E150.C76EFC60" ------=_NextPart_001_002A_01C5E150.C76EFC60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankJones wrote.. Hey, Vo's - let's hear your Top ten list of "Strange bedfellows" I'll start things off in a non-partisan way with 10. Dubya and Conde 9. Bill and Hillary 8. Bill and Scooter 7. Michael Jackson and Elizabeth Taylor 6. Rock Hudson and Doris Day (who woulda ever guessed?) 5. Anwar al-Sadat and Menachem Begin any takers??=20 I'll take a shot at # 5, In 1982, we went to New Orleans to bid a package controls systems, = electrical switchgear and electronics on two huge grain silos to be = built in Egypt and funded by EDA. These silos were to receive the grain = shipments per week into perpretuity promised Egypt as part of the deal = to get Sadat to shake hands with Begin at the White House ceremony with = Prez Jimmie Carter. Us being naive ole Texas country boys that though = the world wuz run on the level, we and 12 other competitors entered our = bids and sat in the bid opening. Shazzaam ! The low bidder, a New = Orleans good ole boy , came in almost a 1/3 of what everyone else bid. = As we rode down on the elevator, one bidder from Dallas remarked.. did = you ever get the feeling we were looking at a completely different set = of contract drawings? The Engineer was the Corps of Engineers USA but = subbed the engineering to a Baton Rouge consulting engineering firm. = Later I heard the rumor that the contractor was awarded numerous change = orders to suppliment his contract. Where is this story leading? hmmm.. The Port of Houston has been = shipping grain to Egypt at the rate of TWO free ships a week since the = 1980's... but.. that has now been increased to FOUR free ships per week. = After all Egypt has the highest birthrate and largest population of the = Arab middle east Muslim nations and they only want us to keep our = handshake deal. Jimme Carter paid the price for that gesture later by = the Iranians holding our embassy people hostage. Later Reagan brokered a = deal with Egypt to keep the grain flowing if Egypt would put in a good = word to Iran to play the great game. All of which led to the later Iran- = Contra scandel, Oiley North et.al. Bush One took a Mad Magazine approach = uttering .. who me? ------=_NextPart_001_002A_01C5E150.C76EFC60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Jones wrote..

Hey, Vo's - let's hear your Top ten list of "Strange = bedfellows"

I'll=20 start things off in a non-partisan way with

10. Dubya and=20 Conde
9.   Bill and Hillary
8.   Bill and=20 Scooter
7.   Michael Jackson and Elizabeth = Taylor
6.  =20 Rock Hudson and Doris Day (who woulda ever guessed?)
5.   = Anwar=20 al-Sadat and Menachem Begin

any takers??

I'll take a shot at # 5,

In 1982, we went to New Orleans to bid a package controls systems, = electrical=20 switchgear and electronics on two huge grain silos to be built = in=20 Egypt and funded by EDA. These silos were to receive the grain shipments = per=20 week into perpretuity promised Egypt as part of the deal to get Sadat to = shake=20 hands with Begin at the White House ceremony with Prez Jimmie = Carter.  Us=20 being naive ole Texas country boys that though the world wuz run on the = level,=20 we and 12 other competitors entered our bids and sat in the bid opening. = Shazzaam ! The low bidder, a New Orleans good ole boy , came in almost a = 1/3 of=20 what everyone else bid. As we rode down on the elevator, one bidder from = Dallas=20 remarked.. did you ever get the feeling we were looking at a completely=20 different set of contract drawings? The Engineer was the Corps of = Engineers USA=20 but subbed the engineering to a Baton Rouge consulting engineering firm. = Later I=20 heard the rumor that the contractor was awarded numerous change orders = to=20 suppliment his contract.

Where is this story leading?  hmmm.. The Port of Houston has = been=20 shipping grain to Egypt at the rate of TWO free ships a week = since the=20 1980's... but.. that has now been increased to FOUR free ships per week. = After=20 all Egypt has the highest birthrate and largest population of the Arab = middle=20 east Muslim nations and they only want us to keep our handshake deal. = Jimme=20 Carter paid the price for that gesture later by the Iranians holding our = embassy=20 people hostage. Later Reagan brokered a deal with Egypt to keep the = grain=20 flowing if Egypt would put in a good word to Iran to play the great = game.=20 All of which led to the later Iran- Contra scandel, Oiley North et.al. = Bush One=20 took a Mad Magazine approach  uttering .. who me?



 

------=_NextPart_001_002A_01C5E150.C76EFC60-- ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C5E150.C76EFC60 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <002801c5e183$1204d880$47037841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C5E150.C76EFC60-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 4 14:25:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA4MOmXI018449; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 14:25:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA4MOiSc018426; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 14:24:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 14:24:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=ix.netcom.com; b=iKFO5XnQA7kqkYQFvL+5gMPOvP4CQW4cG1YYE/NpzdopzuMb2aKuo8PVKNQZBlU/; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220051154222338520 ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.1.47.0 (Windows) From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: "vortex-l" Subject: FW: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday November 4, 2005 Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 14:23:38 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d8b7585132e6b94338b6625e68f6cf183c790fad917fc14d6b350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 216.175.88.29 Resent-Message-ID: <4eVLoB.A.1fE.s-9aDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64307 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > [Original Message] From: What's New To: Date: 11/4/2005 1:02:35 PM Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday November 4, 2005 WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 4 Nov 05 Washington, DC 1. EVOLUTION: BUSH ASKS FOR $7B TO FIGHT EVOLVING BIRD-FLU VIRUS. This is the final week of the Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School Board trial in a Harrisburg, PA federal court. Back in August, before the trial was underway, President Bush came down on the side of intelligent design, much to the delight of the religious- right http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN05/wn080505.html . On Tuesday, however, he announced that he would ask Congress for $7.1 billion to prepare the nation for a worldwide outbreak of flu. It's a hedge against evolution. Although a virulent strain of bird flu has killed at least 62 people in Asia, there have been no confirmed cases of human-to-human transmission. The fear is that the H5N1 virus will mutate (evolve) making that possible. Does this mean that Mr. Bush has changed his mind on evolution? 2. SUPREME QUESTION: WHAT ARE THE NOMINEE'S VIEWS ON SCIENCE? According to the news, Samuel Alito, the President's new choice for the Court, told Senators in both parties that the Court may have gone too far in separating church and state. How can they be too separate? That's particularly scary now when it seems possible that the decision in Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School Board will be appealed to the Supreme Court, no matter how it turns out. We'll go back to questions submitted by readers next week, but in light of Alito's nomination, WN will exercise its editorial prerogative, posing its own question this week: "Does the intelligent designer who designs people, also design viruses? If so, is this conflict-of-interest?" 3. FUNDAMENTALISM: THE POSITION OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH EVOLVES. In the summer heat, a powerful Cardinal, writing in the NY Times, flatly rejected Darwinian evolution, outraging most scientists. However, WN wrote that, "the Church's position is evolving," http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN05/wn070805.html , and so it has. In an Associated Press story today, Cardinal Poupard, head of the Pontifical Council for Culture, said, "we know the dangers of a religion that severs its links with reason and becomes prey to fundamentalism. The faithful have the obligation to listen to that which secular modern science has to offer." Amen. 4. NASA: THE ERA OF HUMAN SPACE FLIGHT ENDED 33 YEARS AGO. That's when Apollo 17 returned from the moon. Someone had better tell NASA. Thursday, Michael Griffin told the House Science Committee that the agency needs another $5B to continue operating the shuttle until 2010. It will take that long to complete the International Space Station so we can begin to dismantle it. The shuttle was the biggest technological blunder in history, but the station is closing the gap. The shuttle was supposed to make it cheaper to send things into space. It didn't. The space station was supposed to do something. I can't remember what. But we do still need the shuttle for one final repair mission to Hubble. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.bobpark.org What's New is moving to a different listserver and our subscription process has changed. To change your subscription status please visit this link: http://listserv.umd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=bobparks-whatsnew&A=1 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 4 14:36:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA4MaKil027179; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 14:36:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA4MaHWS027134; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 14:36:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 14:36:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051104173306.05d00730 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2005 17:35:51 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: O.T.: Tails of the "Rich" and famous In-Reply-To: <002d01c5e183$128ccd30$47037841 xptower> References: <002d01c5e183$128ccd30$47037841 xptower> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64308 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: RC Macaulay wrote: >Bush One took a Mad Magazine approach uttering .. who me? I think you mean: "What me worry?" Let us quote great literature accurately. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 4 15:28:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA4NRUW3002658; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 15:27:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA4NRTQC002637; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 15:27:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 15:27:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <055601c5e197$53a21690$a4b1e118 D54BYG11> Reply-To: "John Coviello" From: "John Coviello" To: "Vortex" Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 18:27:30 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0553_01C5E16D.6A847E40" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-SpamScore: s X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-From: johnwc patmedia.net Subject: BlackLightPower Hydrinos In The News Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64309 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0553_01C5E16D.6A847E40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Fuel's paradise? Power source that turns physics on its head =B7 Scientist says device disproves quantum theory =B7 Opponents claim idea is result of wrong maths=20 Alok Jha, science correspondent Friday November 4, 2005 The Guardian It seems too good to be true: a new source of near-limitless power that = costs virtually nothing, uses tiny amounts of water as its fuel and = produces next to no waste. If that does not sound radical enough, how = about this: the principle behind the source turns modern physics on its = head. Randell Mills, a Harvard University medic who also studied electrical = engineering at Massachusetts Institute of Technology, claims to have = built a prototype power source that generates up to 1,000 times more = heat than conventional fuel. Independent scientists claim to have = verified the experiments and Dr Mills says that his company, Blacklight = Power, has tens of millions of dollars in investment lined up to bring = the idea to market. And he claims to be just months away from unveiling = his creation. The problem is that according to the rules of quantum mechanics, the = physics that governs the behaviour of atoms, the idea is theoretically = impossible. "Physicists are quite conservative. It's not easy to = convince them to change a theory that is accepted for 50 to 60 years. I = don't think [Mills's] theory should be supported," said Jan Naudts, a = theoretical physicist at the University of Antwerp. What has much of the physics world up in arms is Dr Mills's claim that = he has produced a new form of hydrogen, the simplest of all the atoms, = with just a single proton circled by one electron. In his "hydrino", the = electron sits a little closer to the proton than normal, and the = formation of the new atoms from traditional hydrogen releases huge = amounts of energy. This is scientific heresy. According to quantum mechanics, electrons can = only exist in an atom in strictly defined orbits, and the shortest = distance allowed between the proton and electron in hydrogen is fixed. = The two particles are simply not allowed to get any closer. According to Dr Mills, there can be only one explanation: quantum = mechanics must be wrong. "We've done a lot of testing. We've got 50 = independent validation reports, we've got 65 peer-reviewed journal = articles," he said. "We ran into this theoretical resistance and there = are some vested interests here. People are very strong and fervent = protectors of this [quantum] theory that they use." Rick Maas, a chemist at the University of North Carolina at Asheville = (UNC) who specialises in sustainable energy sources, was allowed = unfettered access to Blacklight's laboratories this year. "We went in = with a healthy amount of scepticism. While it would certainly be nice if = this were true, in my position as head of a research institution, I = really wouldn't want to make a mistake. The last thing I want is to be = remembered as the person who derailed a lot of sustainable energy = investment into something that wasn't real." But Prof Maas and Randy Booker, a UNC physicist, left under no doubt = about Dr Mill's claims. "All of us who are not quantum physicists are = looking at Dr Mills's data and we find it very compelling," said Prof = Maas. "Dr Booker and I have both put our professional reputations on the = line as far as that goes." Dr Mills's idea goes against almost a century of thinking. When = scientists developed the theory of quantum mechanics they described a = world where measuring the exact position or energy of a particle was = impossible and where the laws of classical physics had no effect. The = theory has been hailed as one of the 20th century's greatest = achievements. But it is an achievement Dr Mills thinks is flawed. He turned back to = earlier classical physics to develop a theory which, unlike quantum = mechanics, allows an electron to move much closer to the proton at the = heart of a hydrogen atom and, in doing so, release the substantial = amounts of energy he seeks to exploit. Dr Mills's theory, known as = classical quantum mechanics and published in the journal Physics Essays = in 2003, has been criticised most publicly by Andreas Rathke of the = European Space Agency. In a damning critique published recently in the = New Journal of Physics, he argued that Dr Mills's theory was the result = of mathematical mistakes. Dr Mills argues that there are plenty of flaws in Dr Rathke's critique. = "His paper's riddled with mistakes. We've had other physicists contact = him and say this is embarrassing to the journal and [Dr Rathke] won't = respond," said Dr Mills. While the theoretical tangle is unlikely to resolve itself soon, those = wanting to exploit the technology are pushing ahead. "We would like to = understand it from an academic standpoint and then we would like to be = able to use the implications to actually produce energy products," said = Prof Maas. "The companies that are lining up behind this are household = names." Dr Mills will not go into details of who is investing in his research = but rumours suggest a range of US power companies. It is well known also = that Nasa's institute of advanced concepts has funded research into = finding a way of using Blacklight's technology to power rockets. According to Prof Maas, the first product built with Blacklight's = technology, which will be available in as little as four years, will be = a household heater. As the technology is scaled up, he says, bigger = furnaces will be able to boil water and turn turbines to produce = electricity. In a recent economic forecast, Prof Maas calculated that hydrino energy = would cost around 1.2 cents (0.7p) per kilowatt hour. This compares to = an average of 5 cents per kWh for coal and 6 cents for nuclear energy. "If it's wrong, it will be proven wrong," said Kert Davies, research = director of Greenpeace USA. "But if it's right, it is so important that = all else falls away. It has the potential to solve our dependence on = oil. Our stance is of cautious optimism." Alternative energy Cold fusion More than 16 years after chemists' claims to have created a star in a = jar imploded in acrimony, the US government has said it might fund more = research. Mainstream physicists still balk at reports that a beaker of = cold water and metal electrodes can produce excess heat, but a hardy = band of scientists across the world refuse to let the dream die. Methane hydrates The US and Japan are leading attempts to tap this source of fossil fuel = buried beneath the seabed and Arctic permafrost. A mixture of ice and = natural gas, hydrates are believed to contain more carbon than existing = reserves of oil, coal and gas put together. Solar chimneys Sunlight heats trapped air, which rises through a giant chimney and = drives turbines. Leonardo da Vinci designed such a power tower and the = Australian company Enviromission plans to build one. Despite being = scaled down recently, the concrete chimney will still stand some 700 = metres over the outback. Nuclear fusion Turns nuclear power on its head by combining atoms rather than splitting = them to release energy - copying the reaction at the heart of the sun. = After years of arguments the world has agreed to build a test reactor to = see whether it works on a commercial scale. Called Iter, it could be = switched on within a decade. Wave generators No longer a dead duck, the hopes of engineers are riding on bobbing = floats again. The British company Trident Energy recently unveiled a = design that uses a linear generator to convert the motion of the sea = into electricity. A wave farm just a few hundred metres across could = power 62,000 homes. David Adam ------=_NextPart_000_0553_01C5E16D.6A847E40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Fuel's = paradise? Power=20 source that turns physics on its head

=B7 Scientist = says device=20 disproves quantum theory
=B7 Opponents claim idea is result of wrong = maths=20

Alok Jha, science correspondent
Friday November 4, = 2005
The=20 Guardian

It seems too good to be true: a new source of = near-limitless=20 power that costs virtually nothing, uses tiny amounts of water as its = fuel and=20 produces next to no waste. If that does not sound radical enough, how = about=20 this: the principle behind the source turns modern physics on its=20 head.

Randell Mills, a Harvard University medic who also studied=20 electrical engineering at Massachusetts Institute of Technology, claims = to have=20 built a prototype power source that generates up to 1,000 times more = heat than=20 conventional fuel. Independent scientists claim to have verified the = experiments=20 and Dr Mills says that his company, Blacklight Power, has tens of = millions of=20 dollars in investment lined up to bring the idea to market. And he = claims to be=20 just months away from unveiling his creation.

The problem is that = according to the rules of quantum mechanics, the physics that governs = the=20 behaviour of atoms, the idea is theoretically impossible. "Physicists = are quite=20 conservative. It's not easy to convince them to change a theory that is = accepted=20 for 50 to 60 years. I don't think [Mills's] theory should be supported," = said=20 Jan Naudts, a theoretical physicist at the University of = Antwerp.

What=20 has much of the physics world up in arms is Dr Mills's claim that he has = produced a new form of hydrogen, the simplest of all the atoms, with = just a=20 single proton circled by one electron. In his "hydrino", the electron = sits a=20 little closer to the proton than normal, and the formation of the new = atoms from=20 traditional hydrogen releases huge amounts of energy.

This is = scientific=20 heresy. According to quantum mechanics, electrons can only exist in an = atom in=20 strictly defined orbits, and the shortest distance allowed between the = proton=20 and electron in hydrogen is fixed. The two particles are simply not = allowed to=20 get any closer.

According to Dr Mills, there can be only one = explanation:=20 quantum mechanics must be wrong. "We've done a lot of testing. We've got = 50=20 independent validation reports, we've got 65 peer-reviewed journal = articles," he=20 said. "We ran into this theoretical resistance and there are some vested = interests here. People are very strong and fervent protectors of this = [quantum]=20 theory that they use."

Rick Maas, a chemist at the University of = North=20 Carolina at Asheville (UNC) who specialises in sustainable energy = sources, was=20 allowed unfettered access to Blacklight's laboratories this year. "We = went in=20 with a healthy amount of scepticism. While it would certainly be nice if = this=20 were true, in my position as head of a research institution, I really = wouldn't=20 want to make a mistake. The last thing I want is to be remembered as the = person=20 who derailed a lot of sustainable energy investment into something that = wasn't=20 real."

But Prof Maas and Randy Booker, a UNC physicist, left = under no=20 doubt about Dr Mill's claims. "All of us who are not quantum physicists = are=20 looking at Dr Mills's data and we find it very compelling," said Prof = Maas. "Dr=20 Booker and I have both put our professional reputations on the line as = far as=20 that goes."

Dr Mills's idea goes against almost a century of = thinking.=20 When scientists developed the theory of quantum mechanics they described = a world=20 where measuring the exact position or energy of a particle was = impossible and=20 where the laws of classical physics had no effect. The theory has been = hailed as=20 one of the 20th century's greatest achievements.

But it is an = achievement=20 Dr Mills thinks is flawed. He turned back to earlier classical physics = to=20 develop a theory which, unlike quantum mechanics, allows an electron to = move=20 much closer to the proton at the heart of a hydrogen atom and, in doing = so,=20 release the substantial amounts of energy he seeks to exploit. Dr = Mills's=20 theory, known as classical quantum mechanics and published in the = journal=20 Physics Essays in 2003, has been criticised most publicly by Andreas = Rathke of=20 the European Space Agency. In a damning critique published recently in = the New=20 Journal of Physics, he argued that Dr Mills's theory was the result of=20 mathematical mistakes.

Dr Mills argues that there are plenty of = flaws in=20 Dr Rathke's critique. "His paper's riddled with mistakes. We've had = other=20 physicists contact him and say this is embarrassing to the journal and = [Dr=20 Rathke] won't respond," said Dr Mills.

While the theoretical = tangle is=20 unlikely to resolve itself soon, those wanting to exploit the technology = are=20 pushing ahead. "We would like to understand it from an academic = standpoint and=20 then we would like to be able to use the implications to actually = produce energy=20 products," said Prof Maas. "The companies that are lining up behind this = are=20 household names."

Dr Mills will not go into details of who is = investing=20 in his research but rumours suggest a range of US power companies. It is = well=20 known also that Nasa's institute of advanced concepts has funded = research into=20 finding a way of using Blacklight's technology to power=20 rockets.

According to Prof Maas, the first product built with=20 Blacklight's technology, which will be available in as little as four = years,=20 will be a household heater. As the technology is scaled up, he says, = bigger=20 furnaces will be able to boil water and turn turbines to produce=20 electricity.

In a recent economic forecast, Prof Maas calculated = that=20 hydrino energy would cost around 1.2 cents (0.7p) per kilowatt hour. = This=20 compares to an average of 5 cents per kWh for coal and 6 cents for = nuclear=20 energy.

"If it's wrong, it will be proven wrong," said Kert = Davies,=20 research director of Greenpeace USA. "But if it's right, it is so = important that=20 all else falls away. It has the potential to solve our dependence on = oil. Our=20 stance is of cautious optimism."

Alternative = energy

Cold=20 fusion

More than 16 years after chemists' claims to have created = a star=20 in a jar imploded in acrimony, the US government has said it might fund = more=20 research. Mainstream physicists still balk at reports that a beaker of = cold=20 water and metal electrodes can produce excess heat, but a hardy band of=20 scientists across the world refuse to let the dream = die.

Methane=20 hydrates

The US and Japan are leading attempts to tap this source = of=20 fossil fuel buried beneath the seabed and Arctic permafrost. A mixture = of ice=20 and natural gas, hydrates are believed to contain more carbon than = existing=20 reserves of oil, coal and gas put together.

Solar=20 chimneys

Sunlight heats trapped air, which rises through a giant = chimney=20 and drives turbines. Leonardo da Vinci designed such a power tower and = the=20 Australian company Enviromission plans to build one. Despite being = scaled down=20 recently, the concrete chimney will still stand some 700 metres over the = outback.

Nuclear fusion

Turns nuclear power on its head by = combining atoms rather than splitting them to release energy - copying = the=20 reaction at the heart of the sun. After years of arguments the world has = agreed=20 to build a test reactor to see whether it works on a commercial scale. = Called=20 Iter, it could be switched on within a decade.

Wave = generators

No=20 longer a dead duck, the hopes of engineers are riding on bobbing floats = again.=20 The British company Trident Energy recently unveiled a design that uses = a linear=20 generator to convert the motion of the sea into electricity. A wave farm = just a=20 few hundred metres across could power 62,000 homes.
David=20 Adam
------=_NextPart_000_0553_01C5E16D.6A847E40-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 4 15:53:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA4NqxrQ012740; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 15:53:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA4Nqus1012701; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 15:52:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 15:52:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <057301c5e19a$e59afc80$a4b1e118 D54BYG11> Reply-To: "John Coviello" From: "John Coviello" To: "Vortex" References: <055601c5e197$53a21690$a4b1e118 D54BYG11> Subject: Re: BlackLightPower Hydrinos In The News Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 18:52:40 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0570_01C5E170.EEB73CE0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-SpamScore: s X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-From: johnwc patmedia.net Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64310 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0570_01C5E170.EEB73CE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The link to this article: = http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/story/0,3605,1627424,00.html Notice the brief mention of Cold Fusion. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: John Coviello=20 To: Vortex=20 Sent: Friday, November 04, 2005 6:27 PM Subject: BlackLightPower Hydrinos In The News Fuel's paradise? Power source that turns physics on its head =B7 Scientist says device disproves quantum theory =B7 Opponents claim idea is result of wrong maths=20 Alok Jha, science correspondent Friday November 4, 2005 The Guardian It seems too good to be true: a new source of near-limitless power = that costs virtually nothing, uses tiny amounts of water as its fuel and = produces next to no waste. If that does not sound radical enough, how = about this: the principle behind the source turns modern physics on its = head. Randell Mills, a Harvard University medic who also studied electrical = engineering at Massachusetts Institute of Technology, claims to have = built a prototype power source that generates up to 1,000 times more = heat than conventional fuel. Independent scientists claim to have = verified the experiments and Dr Mills says that his company, Blacklight = Power, has tens of millions of dollars in investment lined up to bring = the idea to market. And he claims to be just months away from unveiling = his creation. The problem is that according to the rules of quantum mechanics, the = physics that governs the behaviour of atoms, the idea is theoretically = impossible. "Physicists are quite conservative. It's not easy to = convince them to change a theory that is accepted for 50 to 60 years. I = don't think [Mills's] theory should be supported," said Jan Naudts, a = theoretical physicist at the University of Antwerp. What has much of the physics world up in arms is Dr Mills's claim that = he has produced a new form of hydrogen, the simplest of all the atoms, = with just a single proton circled by one electron. In his "hydrino", the = electron sits a little closer to the proton than normal, and the = formation of the new atoms from traditional hydrogen releases huge = amounts of energy. This is scientific heresy. According to quantum mechanics, electrons = can only exist in an atom in strictly defined orbits, and the shortest = distance allowed between the proton and electron in hydrogen is fixed. = The two particles are simply not allowed to get any closer. According to Dr Mills, there can be only one explanation: quantum = mechanics must be wrong. "We've done a lot of testing. We've got 50 = independent validation reports, we've got 65 peer-reviewed journal = articles," he said. "We ran into this theoretical resistance and there = are some vested interests here. People are very strong and fervent = protectors of this [quantum] theory that they use." Rick Maas, a chemist at the University of North Carolina at Asheville = (UNC) who specialises in sustainable energy sources, was allowed = unfettered access to Blacklight's laboratories this year. "We went in = with a healthy amount of scepticism. While it would certainly be nice if = this were true, in my position as head of a research institution, I = really wouldn't want to make a mistake. The last thing I want is to be = remembered as the person who derailed a lot of sustainable energy = investment into something that wasn't real." But Prof Maas and Randy Booker, a UNC physicist, left under no doubt = about Dr Mill's claims. "All of us who are not quantum physicists are = looking at Dr Mills's data and we find it very compelling," said Prof = Maas. "Dr Booker and I have both put our professional reputations on the = line as far as that goes." Dr Mills's idea goes against almost a century of thinking. When = scientists developed the theory of quantum mechanics they described a = world where measuring the exact position or energy of a particle was = impossible and where the laws of classical physics had no effect. The = theory has been hailed as one of the 20th century's greatest = achievements. But it is an achievement Dr Mills thinks is flawed. He turned back to = earlier classical physics to develop a theory which, unlike quantum = mechanics, allows an electron to move much closer to the proton at the = heart of a hydrogen atom and, in doing so, release the substantial = amounts of energy he seeks to exploit. Dr Mills's theory, known as = classical quantum mechanics and published in the journal Physics Essays = in 2003, has been criticised most publicly by Andreas Rathke of the = European Space Agency. In a damning critique published recently in the = New Journal of Physics, he argued that Dr Mills's theory was the result = of mathematical mistakes. Dr Mills argues that there are plenty of flaws in Dr Rathke's = critique. "His paper's riddled with mistakes. We've had other physicists = contact him and say this is embarrassing to the journal and [Dr Rathke] = won't respond," said Dr Mills. While the theoretical tangle is unlikely to resolve itself soon, those = wanting to exploit the technology are pushing ahead. "We would like to = understand it from an academic standpoint and then we would like to be = able to use the implications to actually produce energy products," said = Prof Maas. "The companies that are lining up behind this are household = names." Dr Mills will not go into details of who is investing in his research = but rumours suggest a range of US power companies. It is well known also = that Nasa's institute of advanced concepts has funded research into = finding a way of using Blacklight's technology to power rockets. According to Prof Maas, the first product built with Blacklight's = technology, which will be available in as little as four years, will be = a household heater. As the technology is scaled up, he says, bigger = furnaces will be able to boil water and turn turbines to produce = electricity. In a recent economic forecast, Prof Maas calculated that hydrino = energy would cost around 1.2 cents (0.7p) per kilowatt hour. This = compares to an average of 5 cents per kWh for coal and 6 cents for = nuclear energy. "If it's wrong, it will be proven wrong," said Kert Davies, research = director of Greenpeace USA. "But if it's right, it is so important that = all else falls away. It has the potential to solve our dependence on = oil. Our stance is of cautious optimism." Alternative energy Cold fusion More than 16 years after chemists' claims to have created a star in a = jar imploded in acrimony, the US government has said it might fund more = research. Mainstream physicists still balk at reports that a beaker of = cold water and metal electrodes can produce excess heat, but a hardy = band of scientists across the world refuse to let the dream die. Methane hydrates The US and Japan are leading attempts to tap this source of fossil = fuel buried beneath the seabed and Arctic permafrost. A mixture of ice = and natural gas, hydrates are believed to contain more carbon than = existing reserves of oil, coal and gas put together. Solar chimneys Sunlight heats trapped air, which rises through a giant chimney and = drives turbines. Leonardo da Vinci designed such a power tower and the = Australian company Enviromission plans to build one. Despite being = scaled down recently, the concrete chimney will still stand some 700 = metres over the outback. Nuclear fusion Turns nuclear power on its head by combining atoms rather than = splitting them to release energy - copying the reaction at the heart of = the sun. After years of arguments the world has agreed to build a test = reactor to see whether it works on a commercial scale. Called Iter, it = could be switched on within a decade. Wave generators No longer a dead duck, the hopes of engineers are riding on bobbing = floats again. The British company Trident Energy recently unveiled a = design that uses a linear generator to convert the motion of the sea = into electricity. A wave farm just a few hundred metres across could = power 62,000 homes. David Adam ------=_NextPart_000_0570_01C5E170.EEB73CE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The link to this article: h= ttp://www.guardian.co.uk/science/story/0,3605,1627424,00.html<= /DIV>
 
Notice the brief mention of Cold=20 Fusion.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 John=20 Coviello
To: Vortex
Sent: Friday, November 04, 2005 = 6:27=20 PM
Subject: BlackLightPower = Hydrinos In The=20 News

Fuel's = paradise? Power=20 source that turns physics on its head

=B7 Scientist = says=20 device disproves quantum theory
=B7 Opponents claim idea is result = of wrong=20 maths

Alok Jha, science correspondent
Friday November 4,=20 2005
The Guardian

It seems too good to be true: a new source = of=20 near-limitless power that costs virtually nothing, uses tiny amounts = of water=20 as its fuel and produces next to no waste. If that does not sound = radical=20 enough, how about this: the principle behind the source turns modern = physics=20 on its head.

Randell Mills, a Harvard University medic who also = studied=20 electrical engineering at Massachusetts Institute of Technology, = claims to=20 have built a prototype power source that generates up to 1,000 times = more heat=20 than conventional fuel. Independent scientists claim to have verified = the=20 experiments and Dr Mills says that his company, Blacklight Power, has = tens of=20 millions of dollars in investment lined up to bring the idea to = market. And he=20 claims to be just months away from unveiling his creation.

The = problem=20 is that according to the rules of quantum mechanics, the physics that = governs=20 the behaviour of atoms, the idea is theoretically impossible. = "Physicists are=20 quite conservative. It's not easy to convince them to change a theory = that is=20 accepted for 50 to 60 years. I don't think [Mills's] theory should be=20 supported," said Jan Naudts, a theoretical physicist at the University = of=20 Antwerp.

What has much of the physics world up in arms is Dr = Mills's=20 claim that he has produced a new form of hydrogen, the simplest of all = the=20 atoms, with just a single proton circled by one electron. In his = "hydrino",=20 the electron sits a little closer to the proton than normal, and the = formation=20 of the new atoms from traditional hydrogen releases huge amounts of=20 energy.

This is scientific heresy. According to quantum = mechanics,=20 electrons can only exist in an atom in strictly defined orbits, and = the=20 shortest distance allowed between the proton and electron in hydrogen = is=20 fixed. The two particles are simply not allowed to get any=20 closer.

According to Dr Mills, there can be only one = explanation:=20 quantum mechanics must be wrong. "We've done a lot of testing. We've = got 50=20 independent validation reports, we've got 65 peer-reviewed journal = articles,"=20 he said. "We ran into this theoretical resistance and there are some = vested=20 interests here. People are very strong and fervent protectors of this=20 [quantum] theory that they use."

Rick Maas, a chemist at the = University=20 of North Carolina at Asheville (UNC) who specialises in sustainable = energy=20 sources, was allowed unfettered access to Blacklight's laboratories = this year.=20 "We went in with a healthy amount of scepticism. While it would = certainly be=20 nice if this were true, in my position as head of a research = institution, I=20 really wouldn't want to make a mistake. The last thing I want is to be = remembered as the person who derailed a lot of sustainable energy = investment=20 into something that wasn't real."

But Prof Maas and Randy = Booker, a UNC=20 physicist, left under no doubt about Dr Mill's claims. "All of us who = are not=20 quantum physicists are looking at Dr Mills's data and we find it very=20 compelling," said Prof Maas. "Dr Booker and I have both put our = professional=20 reputations on the line as far as that goes."

Dr Mills's idea = goes=20 against almost a century of thinking. When scientists developed the = theory of=20 quantum mechanics they described a world where measuring the exact = position or=20 energy of a particle was impossible and where the laws of classical = physics=20 had no effect. The theory has been hailed as one of the 20th century's = greatest achievements.

But it is an achievement Dr Mills thinks = is=20 flawed. He turned back to earlier classical physics to develop a = theory which,=20 unlike quantum mechanics, allows an electron to move much closer to = the proton=20 at the heart of a hydrogen atom and, in doing so, release the = substantial=20 amounts of energy he seeks to exploit. Dr Mills's theory, known as = classical=20 quantum mechanics and published in the journal Physics Essays in 2003, = has=20 been criticised most publicly by Andreas Rathke of the European Space = Agency.=20 In a damning critique published recently in the New Journal of = Physics, he=20 argued that Dr Mills's theory was the result of mathematical=20 mistakes.

Dr Mills argues that there are plenty of flaws in Dr = Rathke's=20 critique. "His paper's riddled with mistakes. We've had other = physicists=20 contact him and say this is embarrassing to the journal and [Dr = Rathke] won't=20 respond," said Dr Mills.

While the theoretical tangle is = unlikely to=20 resolve itself soon, those wanting to exploit the technology are = pushing=20 ahead. "We would like to understand it from an academic standpoint and = then we=20 would like to be able to use the implications to actually produce = energy=20 products," said Prof Maas. "The companies that are lining up behind = this are=20 household names."

Dr Mills will not go into details of who is = investing=20 in his research but rumours suggest a range of US power companies. It = is well=20 known also that Nasa's institute of advanced concepts has funded = research into=20 finding a way of using Blacklight's technology to power=20 rockets.

According to Prof Maas, the first product built with=20 Blacklight's technology, which will be available in as little as four = years,=20 will be a household heater. As the technology is scaled up, he says, = bigger=20 furnaces will be able to boil water and turn turbines to produce=20 electricity.

In a recent economic forecast, Prof Maas = calculated that=20 hydrino energy would cost around 1.2 cents (0.7p) per kilowatt hour. = This=20 compares to an average of 5 cents per kWh for coal and 6 cents for = nuclear=20 energy.

"If it's wrong, it will be proven wrong," said Kert = Davies,=20 research director of Greenpeace USA. "But if it's right, it is so = important=20 that all else falls away. It has the potential to solve our dependence = on oil.=20 Our stance is of cautious optimism."

Alternative=20 energy

Cold fusion

More than 16 years after = chemists'=20 claims to have created a star in a jar imploded in acrimony, the US = government=20 has said it might fund more research. Mainstream physicists still balk = at=20 reports that a beaker of cold water and metal electrodes can produce = excess=20 heat, but a hardy band of scientists across the world refuse to let = the dream=20 die.

Methane hydrates

The US and Japan are = leading=20 attempts to tap this source of fossil fuel buried beneath the seabed = and=20 Arctic permafrost. A mixture of ice and natural gas, hydrates are = believed to=20 contain more carbon than existing reserves of oil, coal and gas put=20 together.

Solar chimneys

Sunlight heats trapped air, = which rises=20 through a giant chimney and drives turbines. Leonardo da Vinci = designed such a=20 power tower and the Australian company Enviromission plans to build = one.=20 Despite being scaled down recently, the concrete chimney will still = stand some=20 700 metres over the outback.

Nuclear fusion

Turns = nuclear power=20 on its head by combining atoms rather than splitting them to release = energy -=20 copying the reaction at the heart of the sun. After years of arguments = the=20 world has agreed to build a test reactor to see whether it works on a=20 commercial scale. Called Iter, it could be switched on within a=20 decade.

Wave generators

No longer a dead duck, the hopes = of=20 engineers are riding on bobbing floats again. The British company = Trident=20 Energy recently unveiled a design that uses a linear generator to = convert the=20 motion of the sea into electricity. A wave farm just a few hundred = metres=20 across could power 62,000 homes.
David=20 Adam
------=_NextPart_000_0570_01C5E170.EEB73CE0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 4 18:35:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA52YsV3029560; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 18:35:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA52YolM029541; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 18:34:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 18:34:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <058801c5e1b1$86c20390$a4b1e118 D54BYG11> Reply-To: "John Coviello" From: "John Coviello" To: "Vortex" Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 21:34:49 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0585_01C5E187.959AC570" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-From: johnwc patmedia.net Subject: A123 Systems Releases New Lithium-ion Battery Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64311 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0585_01C5E187.959AC570 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A123Systems releases new Lithium-ion battery=20 Wednesday, November 02, 2005 10:42 PM=20 Utilizing nanoscale electrode technology, the battery lasts 10x as long, = has 5X power gain, charges 90% capacity in five minutes. First batteries = will be sold to Black & Decker for their DeWALT brand chordless tools. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- WATERTOWN, MASSACHUSETTS, USA -- A123Systems, developer of a new = generation of Lithium-ion batteries, Wednesday unveiled its technology = and announced that it is delivering batteries with unprecedented power, = safety, and life as compared to conventional Lithium technology.=20 A123Systems' first battery is now in production and being delivered to = the Black & Decker Corporation (NYSE: BDK). It will be first utilized by = the corporation's DeWALT brand, a leading manufacturer of power tools. Advanced Performance A123Systems' battery technology delivers up to 10X longer life, 5X power = gains and dramatically faster charge time over conventional high power = battery technology, as validated by independent testing at Motorola and = government research labs. A123Systems' batteries use proprietary = nanoscale electrode technology built on research at Massachusetts = Institute of Technology (MIT) and exclusively licensed from MIT.=20 "A123's revolutionary technology will enable manufacturers to improve = the performance and form factor of existing high-power portable devices = and to transform products currently dependent on power cords and sockets = into a new class of portable devices," said David Vieau, CEO and = president of A123Systems. "We expect that our technology will have the = same impact on high-power products as the introduction of first = generation Lithium-ion technology had on the development and = commercialization of consumer electronics in the 1990s." A123Systems' initial family of batteries is targeted at applications = that require high power, high levels of safety, and longer life. These = include power tools, advanced medical devices, hybrid electric vehicles, = mobility products such as electric scooters, robotics, and consumer = electronics.=20 High Power. A123Systems' first product packs up to five times the power = density of current rechargeable, high power batteries. In addition, the = battery has the ability to recharge to 90% of its capacity in five = minutes.=20 http://www.opensourceenergy.org/C17/News%20Viewer/default.aspx?ID=3D1041 Electric cars anyone? 5X power density and 90% recharge in 5 minutes. = We were just discussing this on Vortex a few months ago, a Japanese car = maker who was working on a 5 minute rechargable battery. This will = bring electric vehicles into the mainstream. With power densities and = recharge rates like these, electric vehicles with considerable range and = flexibility will be a reality in a few years. ------=_NextPart_000_0585_01C5E187.959AC570 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
A123Systems releases new Lithium-ion = battery=20

Wednesday, November 02, 2005 10:42 PM

Utilizing = nanoscale=20 electrode technology, the battery lasts 10x as long, has 5X power gain, = charges=20 90% capacity in five minutes. First batteries will be sold to Black = & Decker=20 for their DeWALT brand chordless=20 tools.

-----------------------------------------------------------= ---------------------

WATERTOWN,=20 MASSACHUSETTS, USA -- A123Systems, developer of a new generation of = Lithium-ion=20 batteries, Wednesday unveiled its technology and announced that it is = delivering=20 batteries with unprecedented power, safety, and life as compared to = conventional=20 Lithium technology.

A123Systems=92 first battery is now in = production and=20 being delivered to the Black & Decker Corporation (NYSE: BDK). It = will be=20 first utilized by the corporation=92s DeWALT brand, a leading = manufacturer of=20 power tools.


Advanced Performance

A123Systems=92 = battery=20 technology delivers up to 10X longer life, 5X power gains and = dramatically=20 faster charge time over conventional high power battery technology, as = validated=20 by independent testing at Motorola and government research labs. = A123Systems=92=20 batteries use proprietary nanoscale electrode technology built on = research at=20 Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) and exclusively licensed = from MIT.=20

=93A123's revolutionary technology will enable manufacturers to = improve=20 the performance and form factor of existing high-power portable devices = and to=20 transform products currently dependent on power cords and sockets into a = new=20 class of portable devices,=94 said David Vieau, CEO and president of = A123Systems.=20 =93We expect that our technology will have the same impact on high-power = products=20 as the introduction of first generation Lithium-ion technology had on = the=20 development and commercialization of consumer electronics in the=20 1990s.=94

A123Systems=92 initial family of batteries is targeted = at=20 applications that require high power, high levels of safety, and longer = life.=20 These include power tools, advanced medical devices, hybrid electric = vehicles,=20 mobility products such as electric scooters, robotics, and consumer = electronics.=20

High Power. A123Systems=92 first product packs up to five = times the=20 power density of current rechargeable, high power batteries. In = addition, the=20 battery has the ability to recharge to 90% of its capacity in five = minutes.=20

http://www.opensourceenergy.org/C17/News%20Viewer/default.aspx?I= D=3D1041

Electric cars anyone? 5X power density and 90% recharge in 5=20 minutes.  We were just discussing this on Vortex a few months ago, = a=20 Japanese car maker who was working on a 5 minute rechargable = battery.  This=20 will bring electric vehicles into the mainstream.  With power = densities and=20 recharge rates like these, electric vehicles with considerable range and = flexibility will be a reality in a few=20 years.
------=_NextPart_000_0585_01C5E187.959AC570-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 4 23:22:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA57LrU4023179; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 23:22:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA57Lowt023158; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 23:21:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 23:21:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAA+k= Message-ID: <436C5D6E.4090107 iinet.net.au> Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2005 18:21:18 +1100 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Podkletnov's Disks References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64312 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: > Bruce posted; Don't call me bruce! Call me wes! > > Podkletnov's device could be made into a > reactionless drive if we can get reliable mass production of his disks > and steady high voltage power supply. I'm in corrispondance with Dr > Podklenov > > This is very interesting. Have you observed this unidirectional force? No but much of science is based on trust. The effect has not been indepedantly replicated but the same is true for much of the atom smashing work in places like CERN. > Do you have an explanation for the mechanism? Yes but I need to work with a physicist that can do the math. > I was quite fascinated with the reactionless drive. a Both from a > practical and theoretical standpoint. No drive can be truly reactionless! We are really talking of drives that interact electrostatically with waves or photons. These become invisible or insubstantial reaction mass. There are very few practical examples. The magnetic drive that interact with the earths magnetic fields is a fuel less drive. A solar sail is also a fuel less drive. My theory: I believe that the electrons in a Bose condensate can absorb ZPE randomly but can't emit them randomly. It must emit them all in one direction at a given time. With a sphere or other shape the result is random but in Podkletnov’s device the Bose is flat and backed up with a resisting layer. This lazes the ZPE into a beam. It is unidirectional because the Bose Ion can recoil in only one direction. The beam effects sub atomic matter through the radiation reaction effect or the stochastic electrodynamics equivalent. I need someone who can write the equations. Does anyone have DR Puthoffs email address? I only have an out of date address for him. Either that or he thinks I'm a complete nut: which is about right. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 4 23:44:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA57iBH5031794; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 23:44:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA57iAFM031781; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 23:44:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 23:44:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Message-ID: <436C62B0.3040207 iinet.net.au> Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2005 18:43:44 +1100 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: ISS References: <43698D86.9010203@iinet.net.au> <200511031348.29717.rockcast@earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <200511031348.29717.rockcast earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64313 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Standing Bear wrote: > [Big snip] Don't panic about a chinese space race. I suspect that if China really gets going it will spell the end of communism. People are dropping out of the party buy the millions. To many chinese who see the opportunities of space, are also able to see that gulags on Mars wont work well. As a citizen of a country founded as a convict settlement, Australia, I happen to know that it can work but only if the govenor is a genious. If a Mars Gulag fails that would be sad but what wonderful opportunities to the free setttlers that follow to reclaim the ruin. Frankly I think we can make a nuclear reactor that works fine in a meteor storm. If meteors are punching holes in things then the last thing the crew would be worried about is the reactor! Big bumper bars will be easy. Just stick the bulk cargo out front. So what if the bull dozers got a hole in it! > >I hope all of our suggestions don't eventually prove to be just >academic. I just read an interview that the good people at >nuclearspace.com had with some government agencies: >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > quote from webpage-- > NASA's Project Prometheus is in partnership with the Department of >Energy's Office of Naval Reactors (DOE-NR) within the National Nuclear >Security Administration (NNSA) to develop a space nuclear reactor for use in >future robotic exploration activities. The Office of Naval Reactors (NR) is a >joint Navy-DOE organization having responsibility and authority in both >agencies. The Secretary of Energy assigned NR to partner with NASA in support >of Project Prometheus solely as a DOE civilian project. > > > We made an inquiry over current status in efforts to build a space reactor, >nuclearspace.com (NS) contributors posed questions to the agency responsible >for building a premier space nuclear reactor. DOE-NNSA/NR Public Affairs >Officer, Kevin Davis declined an NS phone interview request, but in a written >response to the following questions posed by NS contributors Ty Moore, Jaro >Franta and Bruce Behrhorst responded; excerpt of text below...... >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >there followed a long obviousely scripted 'interview'. All of the 'questions' >appear to have been required to have prior submission and approval, and >all the answers appear to be direct from the agencies public relations branch >after being run through their general legal counsel. As such, most of the >questions are ducked and evaded by the interviewee, who appears to sound >like a classic broken record much of the time. The interviewee interjects >'probable lunar mission' or words to that effect into many of the questions >that the agency did consent to have presented; and then gives a standard >boiler plate denial of a 'lunar mission' over and over again. This is akin to >the old rhetorical game of setting up a 'straw man' and knocking him down. >The conclusions reached by NuclearSpace at the end were pessimistic about >our prospects and our intents concerning realistic space exporation. I tend >to agree with NuclearSpace in this, and wonder if the present administration >only wants the programs around with minimum funding to use as photo ops >and to show that it is 'doing something'. Even if it is wrong! It is >evidently not now percieved in the national interest to invest seriousely >in space, really. If so all our suggestions to this present administration >are going to be ignored until circumstances change. Face it, present so >called plans involve using some nebulous 'appolo' capsule of very small >size considering what might have to be done, and chemical rockets all >the way. No repair capability! If a micrometeoroid holes a tank and fuel >is lost, too bad! And if a crew is lost...throw up ones hands and give up >like the French in 1940.....as if this is the aim all along. But then the >chem ships will use a lot of petrol, happily sold to the government by the >oil and oil service people now primarily contracting in Iraq and the >administration high official with well known connections to that company and >its corporate child there with the three letters in its name. > The Russians, God bless 'em, have a better vision. The Russian President >said as much last March with an appeal for nuclear propulsion. Knowing they >lack funds to do it themselves, the Russians appealed then for international >cooperation on a joint venture or a series of them in order to go to Mars by >2017. > The Europeans appear to be listening. They are joining with them to >buy the Kliper. That little ship is 'cute', and it may prove quite practical. >If some of the above other technologies prove viable, it can be a platform >for a real shuttle all by itself. > The Chinese may be listening as well. They have sought out the Russians >for some close and secret agreements in recent months, many of which involve >technology transfers and weapons system purchases. The Chinese 'Taikonaut' >crew that just returned from orbit left behind a mystery satellite that they >are NOT talking about. It is no secret that the Chinese have military >interests in space. After all, it is the high ground. Look what we did to >Iraq with just photos of 'insane hoosain's sites. > For now we seem to have lost our ambition for space in a self fulfilling >civil service miasma of paperwork and 'mission-plans' with open ended >timelines extending to infinity, productive of nothing but 'cushy' retirements >for political hacks given GS-18 jobs for hatchet jobs done elsewhere. >And 'empire builders' that the civil list is known to be full of! >Such was our military-political establishment in 1957 with regard to space. > > ---- Then came Sputnik! ------- > >Only this 'Sputnik' may be a little larger! > >And a little meaner! > >And have a Chinese name! > >And our government will act with its typical 'surprise'...... > .........and the spin doctors will have another 'science gap'! > >Standing Bear > >We will go to space! The only question us under what conditions! >It IS in our national vital interest whether we effectively realize it or not! > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 5 05:32:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA5DW2ff026966; Sat, 5 Nov 2005 05:32:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA5DViX8026727; Sat, 5 Nov 2005 05:31:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 05:31:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=Mx4CtItjKJjTE2c3s/i4mRDs1E2R2TQFCQXkxmumbYZFUIRAA6evOaCTwIj/NEIl; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220051165123048680 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Podkletnov's Disks Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 06:30:48 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940bd68ecedac31fe638c04e4f891151c28350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.251 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64314 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Wesley Bruce wrote: > > No drive can be truly reactionless! > We are really talking of drives that > that that interact electrostatically with > waves or photons. > These become invisible or substantial reaction mass. > Agreed Wes. I think Dr. (ms?) Li left NASA and went back to China to pursue Podkletnov's work. This isn't an antigravity effect per se, but, rather a "force field" interaction between the subatomic quarks of matter. Each of the three quarks in the protons of the 5.98e24 kilogram mass of the earth actually have a current of a megampere relativistically time-dilated by about 3.0e18 orders of magnitude, resulting in a picoampere current for each. Sum up the total number of quarks ( mass ~ = 1.66e-27/3 Kg) in the earth's mass, neglecting the free electron mass (one per proton excluding the electron bound up in the neutron) and you can arrive at a +/- force proportional to the field strength developed by the disks divided by the square of the 6.38e6 meter radius of the earth or the square of the distance from a mass such as an asteroid, comet, bullet, or the sun. IOW, all inertial mass (air atoms/molecules or spacecraft) can be made to interact with the "strange field" that Podkletnov discovered while spinning a superconducting disk. If I recall correctly things got quiet after Podkletnov announced strong interaction with a "target" at a few miles distance. Note the silence of the antigravity buffs/researchers on vortex since Podkletnov- Dr. Li announced their experimental and theoretical findings. :-) Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Wesley  Bruce wrote:
>
> No drive can be truly reactionless!
> We are really talking of drives that
> that that interact electrostatically with
> waves or photons.
> These become invisible or substantial reaction mass.
>
Agreed Wes.  I think Dr. (ms?) Li  left NASA and went back to China to pursue
Podkletnov's work.
This isn't an antigravity effect per se, but, rather a "force field" interaction
between the subatomic quarks of matter.
Each of the three quarks in the protons of the 5.98e24 kilogram mass of the earth
actually have a current of a megampere relativistically time-dilated by
about 3.0e18 orders of magnitude, resulting in a picoampere current for each.
 
Sum up the total number of quarks ( mass ~ = 1.66e-27/3  Kg) in the
earth's mass, neglecting the free electron mass (one per proton excluding the
electron bound up in the neutron) and you can arrive at a +/- force proportional
to the field strength developed by the disks divided by the square of
the 6.38e6 meter radius of the earth or the square of the distance from a mass
such as an asteroid, comet, bullet,  or the sun.
 
IOW, all inertial mass (air atoms/molecules or spacecraft) can be made to interact
with the "strange field" that Podkletnov discovered while spinning a superconducting disk.
 
If I recall correctly things got quiet after Podkletnov announced strong interaction
with a "target" at a few miles distance.
 
Note the silence of the antigravity buffs/researchers on vortex since
Podkletnov- Dr. Li announced their experimental and theoretical findings.  :-)
 
Fred
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 5 05:52:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA5Dpahv003247; Sat, 5 Nov 2005 05:51:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA5DpZOR003241; Sat, 5 Nov 2005 05:51:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 05:51:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <001001c5e20f$f774f030$e6017841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: <410-220051165123048680 earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Podkletnov's Disks Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 07:51:02 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000D_01C5E1DD.AB674120" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.7 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,HTML_50_60, HTML_MESSAGE,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64315 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C5E1DD.AB674120 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Wes and Fred, Force field reaction may be closer to describing the event.=20 Richard ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Frederick Sparber=20 To: vortex-l eskimo.com=20 Sent: Saturday, November 05, 2005 6:30 AM Subject: Re: Podkletnov's Disks Wesley Bruce wrote: > > No drive can be truly reactionless!=20 > We are really talking of drives that > that that interact electrostatically with > waves or photons. > These become invisible or substantial reaction mass. >=20 Agreed Wes. I think Dr. (ms?) Li left NASA and went back to China to = pursue Podkletnov's work. This isn't an antigravity effect per se, but, rather a "force field" = interaction between the subatomic quarks of matter. Each of the three quarks in the protons of the 5.98e24 kilogram mass = of the earth actually have a current of a megampere relativistically time-dilated = by about 3.0e18 orders of magnitude, resulting in a picoampere current = for each. Sum up the total number of quarks ( mass ~ =3D 1.66e-27/3 Kg) in the=20 earth's mass, neglecting the free electron mass (one per proton = excluding the electron bound up in the neutron) and you can arrive at a +/- force = proportional to the field strength developed by the disks divided by the square of the 6.38e6 meter radius of the earth or the square of the distance = from a mass such as an asteroid, comet, bullet, or the sun. IOW, all inertial mass (air atoms/molecules or spacecraft) can be made = to interact=20 with the "strange field" that Podkletnov discovered while spinning a = superconducting disk. If I recall correctly things got quiet after Podkletnov announced = strong interaction=20 with a "target" at a few miles distance. Note the silence of the antigravity buffs/researchers on vortex since=20 Podkletnov- Dr. Li announced their experimental and theoretical = findings. :-) Fred ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C5E1DD.AB674120 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Wes and Fred,
Force field reaction may be closer to = describing the=20 event.
 
Richard
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Frederick Sparber
Sent: Saturday, November 05, = 2005 6:30=20 AM
Subject: Re: Podkletnov's = Disks

Wesley  Bruce wrote:
>
> No drive can be truly = reactionless!=20
> We are really talking of drives=20 that
> that that interact = electrostatically=20 with
> waves or photons.
> These become invisible or = substantial=20 reaction mass.
>
Agreed Wes.  I think Dr. (ms?) Li  left NASA and went = back to=20 China to pursue
Podkletnov's work.
This isn't an antigravity effect per se, but, rather a "force = field"=20 interaction
between the subatomic quarks of matter.
Each of the three quarks in the protons of the 5.98e24 kilogram=20 mass of the earth
actually have a current of a megampere relativistically = time-dilated=20 by
about 3.0e18 orders of magnitude, resulting in a picoampere=20 current for each.
 
Sum up the total number of quarks ( mass ~ =3D 1.66e-27/3  = Kg) in the=20
earth's mass, neglecting the free electron mass (one per proton = excluding=20 the
electron bound up in the neutron) and you can arrive at a +/- = force=20 proportional
to the field strength developed by the disks divided by = the=20 square of
the 6.38e6 meter radius of the earth or the square of the = distance from a=20 mass
such as an asteroid, comet, bullet,  or the sun.
 
IOW, all inertial mass (air atoms/molecules or spacecraft) can be = made to=20 interact
with the "strange field" that Podkletnov discovered while = spinning a=20 superconducting disk.
 
If I recall correctly things got quiet after Podkletnov = announced=20 strong interaction
with a "target" at a few miles distance.
 
Note the silence of the antigravity buffs/researchers on vortex = since=20
Podkletnov- Dr. Li announced their experimental and theoretical=20 findings.  :-)
 
Fred
 

------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C5E1DD.AB674120-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 5 08:44:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA5GhMOB021575; Sat, 5 Nov 2005 08:43:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA5GhKkJ021551; Sat, 5 Nov 2005 08:43:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 08:43:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <004901c5e227$f83a2810$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: Re: The Geometry of OU Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 08:42:53 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0046_01C5E1E4.E9B51900" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64316 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0046_01C5E1E4.E9B51900 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable One further thought on that "other" potential use of sonofusion... as it = all ties into recent threads. ... that is, should sonofusion not be amenable to becoming a stand-alone = net producer of energy as Ross Tessien and Russ George and others hope:=20 http://www.d2fusion.com/education/sonofusion.html ...perhaps even, the Sierra Club notwithstanding, this suggestion below = is the actually the "best" use - given that fusion - even sonofusion - = in the long run is no "cleaner" than the kind of fission where one burns = (neutralizes) all of the fission ash in situ.=20 IN either case, after 50 years of use, one ends up with an "activated" = reactor as the disposal issue. Easily handled, compared to the = alternative choices. After 50 years of burning natural gas, by the way - in addition to the = megatons of CO2 one has released, there are ton quantities of tritium = gas, radium gas, and radioactive xenon gas: these release directly into = the atmosphere where they do the most harm. These radioactive components = are all part of natural gas in PPM or PPB levels - and in the case of = tritium sometimes higher. That is Lovelock's main point about the ecological "desirability" of = fission (properly done) over everything currently available except wind = energy. He is absolutely correct on this. By now, there should be no doubt in anyone's mind that ultrasound = cavitation will produce some neutrons. Not many, but some. Consequently, = there could easily be a hybrid arrangement, a small = Uranium-fission-sonofusion arrangement, just waiting to be developed. It = will reprocess and burn its own fission waste. ... But only a few extra neutrons from ultrasound is not going to help = much, right? That is the initial reaction to this suggestion... but it = could be short-sighted.=20 What happens when you irradiate a specially-designed "independent" core = with ultrasound (a deuterium-filled moderating core) in an operating = reactor, where there is already a high flux of two other forms of = irradiation - do you get synergy (or a waste of bandwidth)?=20 IF there is a simultaneously large neutron flux in this core (10^13 per = cc) PLUS a huge gamma-ray flux, all at the same time as the added = ultrasound irradiation, will that not free significantly more neutrons, = than without the ultrasound ? =20 Common sense says "probably"... Just one more in the long list of = "Important Experiments which Need to be Performed"... and soon... and, = sadly, probably would have been - were it not for a costly and = unnecessary war. And unlike the situation with "stripping" where the heavy water would = need to be continually purified, as the newly formed proton (of H-O-D) = will now be poised to re-absorb a free-neutron - for no net-gain, with = sonofusion you have a gaseous ash - helium. However, we want to retain = whatever degree of stripping is also involved, but... Here again we find "Ms Synergy" jiggling her lovely booty - in that the = heavy-water purification step can be easily accomplished in situ, due to = the favorable situation of an "independent" core (one not heated by the = fuel itself). It is especially easy in a cool heavy water core, kept = near 100 degree C, to continually rid it preferentially of the helium = and light-water components, as those will boil-off first. The 6% mass = difference assures us of that. Secondary processing will be needed, but = the major first-step of differential evaporation rates assures us that = reactor grade heavy water is always present, no matter how many free = neutrons are being added.. Jones=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0046_01C5E1E4.E9B51900 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
One further thought on that "other" = potential use=20 of sonofusion... as it all ties into recent threads.
 
... that is, = should sonofusion not be=20 amenable to becoming a stand-alone net producer of energy as Ross = Tessien and=20 Russ George and others hope:
http://www.d2fusion.com/education/sonofusion.html
 
...perhaps even, the Sierra Club = notwithstanding,=20 this suggestion below is the actually the "best" use - given that fusion = - even=20 sonofusion - in the long run is no "cleaner" than the kind of fission = where one=20 burns (neutralizes) all of the fission ash in situ.
 
IN either case, after 50 years of use, = one ends up=20 with an "activated" reactor as the disposal issue. Easily handled, = compared to=20 the alternative choices.
 
After 50 years of burning natural gas, = by the way -=20 in addition to the megatons of CO2 one has released, there=20 are ton quantities of tritium gas, radium gas, and radioactive = xenon gas:=20 these release directly into the atmosphere where they do the = most=20 harm. These radioactive components are all part of natural gas in PPM or = PPB=20 levels - and in the case of tritium sometimes higher.
 
That is Lovelock's main point about the = ecological=20 "desirability" of fission (properly done) over everything currently = available=20 except wind energy. He is absolutely correct on this.
 
By now, there should be no doubt = in anyone's=20 mind that ultrasound cavitation will produce some neutrons. Not many, = but some.=20 Consequently, there could easily be a hybrid arrangement, a small=20 Uranium-fission-sonofusion arrangement, just waiting to be developed. It = will=20 reprocess and burn its own fission waste.
 
 ... But only a=20 few extra neutrons from ultrasound is not going to help much, = right? That=20 is the initial reaction to this suggestion... but it could be = short-sighted.=20
 
What happens when you irradiate a=20 specially-designed "independent" core with ultrasound = (a deuterium-filled=20 moderating core) in an operating reactor, where there is already a = high=20 flux of two other forms of irradiation - do you get synergy (or a waste = of=20 bandwidth)?
 
IF there is a simultaneously large = neutron flux in=20 this core (10^13 per cc) PLUS a huge gamma-ray flux, all at the same = time as the=20 added ultrasound irradiation, will that not free significantly more = neutrons, than without the ultrasound ? 
 
Common sense says "probably"... Just = one more in=20 the long list of "Important Experiments which Need to be Performed"... = and=20 soon... and, sadly, probably would have been - were it not for = a=20 costly and unnecessary war.
 
And unlike the situation with = "stripping"=20 where the heavy water would need to be continually purified, as the = newly=20 formed proton (of H-O-D) will now be poised to re-absorb a free-neutron = - for no=20 net-gain, with sonofusion you have a gaseous ash - helium. However, we = want to=20 retain whatever degree of stripping is also involved, = but...
 
Here again we find "Ms Synergy" = jiggling her=20 lovely booty - in that the heavy-water purification step can be = easily=20 accomplished in situ, due to the favorable situation of an = "independent"=20 core (one not heated by the fuel itself). It is especially easy in a = cool heavy=20 water core, kept near 100 degree C, to continually rid it preferentially = of the=20 helium and light-water components, as those will boil-off=20 first. The 6% mass difference assures us of that. Secondary = processing will=20 be needed, but the major first-step of differential evaporation rates = assures us=20 that reactor grade heavy water is always present, no matter how many = free=20 neutrons are being added..

Jones=20
------=_NextPart_000_0046_01C5E1E4.E9B51900-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 5 09:43:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA5HglCN016118; Sat, 5 Nov 2005 09:43:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA5HgjTo016082; Sat, 5 Nov 2005 09:42:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 09:42:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=jOs3scx6mCh8CgrreERVxLMfyY9BOGoivDhIcqLWIBtoLGKYzXmNy7a36ncAOcUM; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220051165164135950 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: The Geometry of OU Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 10:41:35 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940b50f37fe12df0aedcd2fbc1c2e0175b6350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.159 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64317 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Jones left out the good stuff in Fly Ash from the Combustion of Coal. http://pubs.usgs.gov/circ/c1143/html/text.html Beryllium ~ 0.99 PPM Lead ~ 4.8 PPM Mercury ~ 0.22 PPM (Twice as much as ~ 0.11 PPM Palladium) Thorium (&Radium- Radon?) ~ 3.99 PPM Uranium ~ 1.0 PPM Interesting Article. Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Jones left out the good stuff in Fly Ash from the Combustion of Coal.
 
 
Beryllium ~ 0.99  PPM
Lead   ~ 4.8 PPM
Mercury    ~ 0.22 PPM (Twice as much as ~ 0.11 PPM Palladium)
Thorium (&Radium- Radon?)   ~ 3.99  PPM
Uranium      ~ 1.0 PPM
 
Interesting Article.
 
Fred
 
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 5 09:59:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA5HxM14021075; Sat, 5 Nov 2005 09:59:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA5HxKse021055; Sat, 5 Nov 2005 09:59:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 09:59:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000e01c5e232$9562a7c0$e6017841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Well Read Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 11:58:50 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01C5E200.4968CED0"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.5 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,HTML_40_50,HTML_MESSAGE,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64318 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C5E200.4968CED0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000B_01C5E200.496A5570" ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C5E200.496A5570 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankFor those Vorts that may wonder if their posts are read.. keep = posting. Every bit of information, conjecture, disagreement, analogy = etc, raises the level of interest and learning curve . For me, I digest = each post and examine the thought expressed. Solomon penned that " business is conducted over a multitude of words". = Only an occasional thought expressed in the posts can have a profound = effect on someone searching for a particular answer. Now if I could figure out how a small flow through a clear poly tubing = section can spiral in the shape of a coil spring I can move to the next = step. The water actually forms a separate and distinct coil inside the = clear tubing and increases its rotational speed just prior to exiting to = atmosphere. i,e, this is a part of an applied research project in = water vortex studies where we mechanically produce a vortex inside a = ring of magnets with the overflow at the top of the vortex exiting via = the clear poly tubing. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C5E200.496A5570 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
For those Vorts that may wonder if their posts are read.. keep = posting.=20 Every bit of information, conjecture, disagreement, analogy etc, raises = the=20 level of interest and learning curve . For me, I digest each post and = examine=20 the thought expressed.
Solomon penned that " business is conducted over a multitude of = words".=20 Only an occasional thought expressed in the posts can have a profound = effect on=20 someone searching for a particular answer.
 
Now if I could figure out how a small flow through a clear poly = tubing=20 section can spiral in the shape of a coil spring I can move to the next = step.=20 The water actually forms a separate and distinct coil inside the clear = tubing=20 and increases its rotational speed just prior to exiting to=20 atmosphere.    i,e, this is a part of an applied research = project=20 in water vortex studies where we mechanically produce a vortex inside = a =20 ring of magnets with the overflow at the top of the vortex exiting via = the clear=20 poly tubing.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C5E200.496A5570-- ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C5E200.4968CED0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000901c5e232$93b9d9c0$e6017841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C5E200.4968CED0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 5 10:07:02 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA5I61uh023544; Sat, 5 Nov 2005 10:06:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA5I5x3R023502; Sat, 5 Nov 2005 10:05:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 10:05:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000c01c5e233$84197ec0$e6017841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: <410-220051165164135950 earthlink.net> Subject: Re: The Geometry of OU Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 12:05:32 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0009_01C5E201.38FEBB30" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.8 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,HTML_60_70, HTML_MESSAGE,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: <4zETFB.A.KvF.HSPbDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64319 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C5E201.38FEBB30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Living 7 miles downwind of the Fayette Electric coal fired 3 stack power = plant, I can attest to the change taken place over it's 25 year plus = operation. My metal roof is one example. The original unit was built = with NO emission control, the later 2 stacks have E scrubbers. The coal = comes from Wyoming and Montana. Richard ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Frederick Sparber=20 To: vortex-l=20 Sent: Saturday, November 05, 2005 10:41 AM Subject: Re: The Geometry of OU Jones left out the good stuff in Fly Ash from the Combustion of Coal. http://pubs.usgs.gov/circ/c1143/html/text.html Beryllium ~ 0.99 PPM Lead ~ 4.8 PPM Mercury ~ 0.22 PPM (Twice as much as ~ 0.11 PPM Palladium)=20 Thorium (&Radium- Radon?) ~ 3.99 PPM Uranium ~ 1.0 PPM Interesting Article. Fred ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C5E201.38FEBB30 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Living 7 miles downwind of the Fayette = Electric coal=20 fired 3 stack power plant, I can attest to the change taken place over = it's 25=20 year plus operation. My metal roof is one example. The original unit was = built=20 with NO emission control, the later 2 stacks have E scrubbers. The coal = comes=20 from Wyoming and Montana.
Richard
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Frederick Sparber
Sent: Saturday, November 05, = 2005 10:41=20 AM
Subject: Re: The Geometry of = OU

Jones left out the good stuff in Fly Ash from the Combustion of=20 Coal.
 
http://pubs.usgs.= gov/circ/c1143/html/text.html
 
Beryllium ~ 0.99  PPM
Lead   ~ 4.8 PPM
Mercury    ~ 0.22 PPM (Twice as much as ~ 0.11 PPM = Palladium)
Thorium (&Radium- Radon?)   ~ 3.99  = PPM
Uranium      ~ 1.0 PPM
 
Interesting Article.
 
Fred
 
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C5E201.38FEBB30-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 5 11:58:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA5JwDPZ004716; Sat, 5 Nov 2005 11:58:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA5JwBkN004703; Sat, 5 Nov 2005 11:58:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 11:58:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=MOfOt3xhkM55pg6BtJsAFxvKxz3PPTIeYbYTaalxQyeGdR04koXfPz39lO7OEWRL; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <411-220051165185635710 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Well Read Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 12:56:35 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94078f275b9415cc957cbe1ea84bb3c81fc350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.154 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64320 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII You might try cutting an ACME Thread in a poly rod and stretching a clear poly tube over it. Double Stub? OTOH, the screw from a garage door opener has an ACME thread,don't it? On that note a non-ferrous conducting inner rod with an ACME thread channel with insulation over the lands with a tight-fitting non-ferrous outer conductor sleeve in a solenoid/axial magnetic field should make a good Faraday-type MHD Generator when you run sea water (or mercury) through it. Hope this helps. But don't be mad if it don't. Facetious Fred :-) Richard wrote: Now if I could figure out how a small flow through a clear poly tubing section can spiral in the shape of a coil spring I can move to the next step. The water actually forms a separate and distinct coil inside the clear tubing and increases its rotational speed just prior to exiting to atmosphere. i,e, this is a part of an applied research project in water vortex studies where we mechanically produce a vortex inside a ring of magnets with the overflow at the top of the vortex exiting via the clear poly tubing. Richard ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Blank
You might try cutting an ACME Thread in a poly rod and stretching a clear poly
tube over it. Double Stub?
 
OTOH, the screw from a garage door opener has an ACME thread,don't it?
 
On that note a non-ferrous conducting inner rod with an ACME thread channel
with insulation over the lands with a tight-fitting non-ferrous outer conductor
sleeve in a solenoid/axial magnetic field should make a good Faraday-type
MHD Generator when you run sea water (or mercury) through it.
 
Hope this helps. But don't be mad if it don't. 
 
Facetious  Fred     :-)
 
 
Richard wrote:
Now if I could figure out how a small flow through a clear poly tubing section can spiral in the shape of a coil spring I can move to the next step. The water actually forms a separate and distinct coil inside the clear tubing and increases its rotational speed just prior to exiting to atmosphere.    i,e, this is a part of an applied research project in water vortex studies where we mechanically produce a vortex inside a  ring of magnets with the overflow at the top of the vortex exiting via the clear poly tubing.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Description: Blank Bkgrd.gif Content-Id: <410-2200511651856326301 13071999> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 5 14:28:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA5MRq1o030587; Sat, 5 Nov 2005 14:28:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA5MRo24030573; Sat, 5 Nov 2005 14:27:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 14:27:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <000c01c5e258$13e98e40$e6017841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: <411-220051165185635710 earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Well Read Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 16:27:15 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C5E225.C8CD4410"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.0 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,HTML_60_70,HTML_MESSAGE,J_CHICKENPOX_63, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64321 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C5E225.C8CD4410 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0009_01C5E225.C8CD4410" ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C5E225.C8CD4410 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankFred,=20 Sometimes I wonder if my old age is showing, I mean't to state that we = achieved a spiral flow inside the clear tubing. It does appear similar = to a coil spring. The water clings to the inside wall of the tubing with = a hollow center. The spirals are water and show they are flowing as they = overflow at the top of the vortex which has a ring of magnets = surrounding the vortex housing. The hollow center of the spiral rings may allow us to several = experiments including laser light, microwave and special configured = ultrasonic horn that can traverse the center. Fun stuff !! Can water = retain a memory ?=20 Richard ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Frederick Sparber=20 To: vortex-l eskimo.com=20 Sent: Saturday, November 05, 2005 12:56 PM Subject: RE: Well Read You might try cutting an ACME Thread in a poly rod and stretching a = clear poly tube over it. Double Stub? OTOH, the screw from a garage door opener has an ACME thread,don't it? = On that note a non-ferrous conducting inner rod with an ACME thread = channel with insulation over the lands with a tight-fitting non-ferrous outer = conductor sleeve in a solenoid/axial magnetic field should make a good = Faraday-type MHD Generator when you run sea water (or mercury) through it.=20 Hope this helps. But don't be mad if it don't. =20 Facetious Fred :-) Richard wrote: Now if I could figure out how a small flow through a clear poly = tubing section can spiral in the shape of a coil spring I can move to = the next step. The water actually forms a separate and distinct coil = inside the clear tubing and increases its rotational speed just prior to = exiting to atmosphere. i,e, this is a part of an applied research = project in water vortex studies where we mechanically produce a vortex = inside a ring of magnets with the overflow at the top of the vortex = exiting via the clear poly tubing. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C5E225.C8CD4410 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Fred,
Sometimes I wonder if my old age is showing, I = mean't to=20 state that we achieved a spiral flow inside the clear tubing. It does = appear=20 similar to a coil spring. The water clings to the inside wall of the = tubing with=20 a hollow center. The spirals are water and show they are flowing as=20 they overflow at  the top of the vortex which has a ring of = magnets=20 surrounding the vortex housing.
The hollow center of the spiral rings may = allow us to=20 several experiments including laser light, microwave and  special=20 configured ultrasonic horn that can traverse the center. Fun stuff !! = Can water=20 retain a memory ?
 
Richard
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Frederick Sparber
Sent: Saturday, November 05, = 2005 12:56=20 PM
Subject: RE: Well Read

You might try cutting an ACME Thread = in a poly=20 rod and stretching a clear poly
tube over it. Double = Stub?
 
OTOH, the screw from a garage door = opener has=20 an ACME thread,don't it?
 
On that note a non-ferrous = conducting inner=20 rod with an ACME thread channel
with insulation over the lands with = a=20 tight-fitting non-ferrous outer conductor
sleeve in a solenoid/axial = magnetic field=20 should make a good Faraday-type
MHD Generator when you run sea water = (or=20 mercury) through it.
 
Hope this helps. But don't be mad if = it=20 don't. 
 
Facetious  = Fred    =20 :-)
 
 
Richard wrote:
Now if I could figure out how a small flow through a clear poly = tubing=20 section can spiral in the shape of a coil spring I can move to the = next=20 step. The water actually forms a separate and distinct coil inside = the clear=20 tubing and increases its rotational speed just prior to exiting to=20 atmosphere.    i,e, this is a part of an applied = research=20 project in water vortex studies where we mechanically produce a = vortex=20 inside a  ring of magnets with the overflow at the top of the = vortex=20 exiting via the clear poly tubing.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C5E225.C8CD4410-- ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C5E225.C8CD4410 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000701c5e258$1359f870$e6017841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C5E225.C8CD4410-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 5 20:35:21 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA64Yjcs029718; Sat, 5 Nov 2005 20:35:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA64Ye9H029680; Sat, 5 Nov 2005 20:34:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 20:34:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=xDjpKTkMFvH+qRKatZHTX61e1ywztL4buXPO8IfVpw97VkXeqzDaWfF14MvcSuhb3rzKCpnE2KUDKaVhQZ4EU+jMDwIzWJXBdfNk/ZmCqMFDvaHRA7b3y4RRO2Ar8QR1sYxB2DuKiVP0/pD1qBHv2lQx++VvcIKMZK5whUXdf8E= ; Message-ID: <20051106043417.42950.qmail web32205.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 20:34:17 -0800 (PST) From: Merlyn Subject: Re: Well Read To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <000e01c5e232$9562a7c0$e6017841 xptower> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="0-2145750457-1131251657=:42780" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <7v0M2C.A.lPH.ffYbDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64322 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-2145750457-1131251657=:42780 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Id: Content-Disposition: inline Well, if the vortex is in a magnetic field, perhaps you are ionizing the water. Then the charged particles forced into the tube can be influenced by the magnetic field as they exit out the top. My 2 cents. --- RC Macaulay wrote: > BlankFor those Vorts that may wonder if their posts > are read.. keep posting. Every bit of information, > conjecture, disagreement, analogy etc, raises the > level of interest and learning curve . For me, I > digest each post and examine the thought expressed. > Solomon penned that " business is conducted over a > multitude of words". Only an occasional thought > expressed in the posts can have a profound effect on > someone searching for a particular answer. > > Now if I could figure out how a small flow through a > clear poly tubing section can spiral in the shape of > a coil spring I can move to the next step. The water > actually forms a separate and distinct coil inside > the clear tubing and increases its rotational speed > just prior to exiting to atmosphere. i,e, this is > a part of an applied research project in water > vortex studies where we mechanically produce a > vortex inside a ring of magnets with the overflow > at the top of the vortex exiting via the clear poly > tubing. > > Richard > > Merlyn Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com --0-2145750457-1131251657=:42780-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 5 22:57:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA66uj99007467; Sat, 5 Nov 2005 22:57:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA66uh2W007452; Sat, 5 Nov 2005 22:56:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 22:56:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: ISS Date: Sun, 06 Nov 2005 17:56:11 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <43698D86.9010203@iinet.net.au> <436B184A.8050300@iinet.net.au> In-Reply-To: <436B184A.8050300 iinet.net.au> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.58.89] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Sun, 6 Nov 2005 06:56:11 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id jA66uL12007263 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64323 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Wesley Bruce's message of Fri, 04 Nov 2005 19:14:02 +1100: Hi, [snip] >About the same. The time frame is not acceleration limited. Its limited >by orbital windows. Some have proposed making a cycler using ISS >modules. The minimum fuel option is a cycler. A cycler is a craft that >orbits the sun in such a way that it takes a crew to Mars in three >months and then swings around the sun unmanned to pick up a new crew. A Wouldn't this be going pretty fast as it passes the Earth, and would that make it hard to catch up with it? >second cycler going in the opposite direction would take three months to >drop someone home from mars and then spend a year going around the sun. > >Ion engines are too slow for manned flight we want to go faster than >three months for manned missions. That gives us three options. Avoiding >solar flares, we have more than three months warning but less than six I >believe. Some say we have more than a year but we've only looked at a >years data from the new sats in close to the sun. Ion engines are OK for >dead cargoes but solar sails can match ion engines and plasma sails beat >them. The best sail design is at: >http://www.ess.washington.edu/Space/propulsion.html >2nPa is good thrust, better than Ion and you are not burning fuel. Also >you can combine robotic craft with manned craft in a way they >accumulates momentum in six unmanned craft. And then bounce them off the >manned crafts fields. This takes a months acceleration from the solar >wind and packs it into a few minutes of field interaction. This is my >reusable reaction mass drive. Not yet published. > >If you could run a drive at one g continously Mars is 3 to 5 _days_ away >but you'd need a hell of a bumper bar. How long would it take if you accelerated then decelerated? Is there an online trip calculator? >Nuclear salt water rocket 0.1 g ~ 3 -5 weeks, a good plasma drive 0.01 >g ~4 to 7 weeks, The best sail 0.005 ~6 to 9 weeks. >Reactionless drives rule. Too bad about newtons laws. ;-) [snip] >Lab racks with power and cooling. Their not much use on mars because >there systems are optimized for zero g. >On mars you want your lab on the ground or better still in the rover. I should think that a space station orbiting Mars would be quite useful. It could function as a planetary observatory, and as a relay station for both information and supplies. A.o. it could provide regular weather updates for ground crews. The Mars mission, should not be seen as a "one shot", but rather as the beginning of an ongoing program. Viewed in that light, a space station in orbit makes a lot of sense. It could also function as a staging post. Multiple shuttle trips between Mars and the orbiting station could be then be made using fuel manufactured on the surface. [snip] >>What's the lifting capacity of the Russian's largest rocket? You missed this one. [snip] >>How many satellites are already in Mars orbit, and is there any [snip] >There's at least three and one on the way but there are >incompatibilities and other problems in the current constellation. Doesn't sound like a lot of forward thinking went into that little lot. >Mars >Net is store and forward email, much bigger data streams and the sats >can talk to each other in the same language so you can send 'live' >video. If you have a constant real time link, then you don't need store and forward capability, just a transfer capability. The storage capability can exist on the main orbital vessel. > Also their clocks are optimized for limited gps type navigation. Not so critical. Inertial navigation is currently pretty advanced, so there is no real need for anyone to get lost. [snip] >>BTW I don't think the Hafnium reactor is for real. >> >> >You think it was a misinformation program or some thing. No, but AFAIK the initial indications that it worked haven't been replicated. [snip] > The half life must >change as a consequence. I believe the idea was indeed to trigger the decays through x-ray stimulation. >A a two kg neutron gun fires into a cavity lined with isotopes normally >found in medium grade nuclear waste. They fission but they don't make >enough neutrons to chain react. It can be turned off quickly. I'll >check my source on that one the web page has moved on me. What's wrong with a simple reactor? [snip] >>Why not land the reactor portion of the main ship on Mars? Then >>you can use the power from the main reactor to create all the fuel >>you need in a short period of time. It would save the whole fuel >>plant trip. It could also make enough fuel for it's own launch for >>the return trip. The fuel plant could be taken along on the main >>ship. Might be better than landing only to discover that the >>previous fuel plant mission didn't quite work, and you now have no >>way of getting back. If the crew + fuel plant landing doesn't >>work, then the crew are probably dead, and not very interested in >>coming back anyway. >>[snip] >> >> >Yes thats been thought of but if we have a big reactor on Mars then we >can do anything. But would you go to mars with a reactor and fuel plant >not knowing it will absolutly work. Send a robot. Make fuel to come >home. check it worked and then go. Then you had better make sure that you have a video camera that can actually see the fuel in the tank (sensors can be fooled). You also need to know that the fuel is not contaminated. >That way you garantee you'll get >back. That said my moneys on cold fusion. But I would still make fuel >with a fusion powered robot factory while I watched from the safty of earth. You might also consider a nuclear rocket for Mars takeoff. It could initially use compressed CO2 for reaction mass, then operate as a ram jet as it gained velocity. That way you wouldn't have to make any fuel. > See: http://www.marssociety.org/ and http://www.marssociety.org.au/ >and http://www.marshome.org/ for all the details. > Actually, I think a large cave would probably make a much cheaper abode. You need then only seal off the entrance(s). There are bound to be a few lava tunnels somewhere. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 5 23:37:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA67bICI022011; Sat, 5 Nov 2005 23:37:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA67bGQL021992; Sat, 5 Nov 2005 23:37:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 23:37:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=bWxVCYSNUMp3YTbWAt8O4pWllACIHUdfzwB6bQ58IuaeVVH5j5u0+BrVhW8nsKat; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <411-22005110663635530 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Well Read Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 00:36:35 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9403a82aa6c3f7740ec98a82a6666e00e0a350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.6 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64324 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Richard, Jacques Benvinste (sp?) argued that water has a memory, but I think the surface tension of water is what you are seeing as the water spirals inside the poly tube. Open the kitchen faucet just past where a drip forms and notice that the water thins down from about 3 mm diameter to a thin thread as gravity accelerates the tip of the stream causing tension and thinning until it breaks into droplets. Motor oil does that too, even when you don't want it to. Perhaps a high voltage applied between the faucet and the kitchen sink for making the stream arc? Fred ----- Original Message ----- From: RC Macaulay To: vortex-l eskimo.com Sent: 11/5/05 4:28:07 PM Subject: Re: Well Read Fred, Sometimes I wonder if my old age is showing, I mean't to state that we achieved a spiral flow inside the clear tubing. It does appear similar to a coil spring. The water clings to the inside wall of the tubing with a hollow center. The spirals are water and show they are flowing as they overflow at the top of the vortex which has a ring of magnets surrounding the vortex housing. The hollow center of the spiral rings may allow us to several experiments including laser light, microwave and special configured ultrasonic horn that can traverse the center. Fun stuff !! Can water retain a memory ? Richard ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Blank
Richard,
 
Jacques Benvinste (sp?) argued that water has a memory,
but I think the surface tension of water is what you are seeing as the water
spirals inside the poly tube.
 
Open the kitchen faucet just past where a drip forms and notice
that the water thins down from about 3 mm diameter to
a thin thread as gravity accelerates the tip of the stream causing tension
and thinning until it breaks into droplets. Motor oil does that too, even when
you don't want it to. 
 
Perhaps a high voltage applied between the faucet and the kitchen
sink for making the stream arc?
 
Fred
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 11/5/05 4:28:07 PM
Subject: Re: Well Read

Fred,
Sometimes I wonder if my old age is showing, I mean't to state that we achieved a spiral flow inside the clear tubing. It does appear similar to a coil spring. The water clings to the inside wall of the tubing with a hollow center. The spirals are water and show they are flowing as they overflow at  the top of the vortex which has a ring of magnets surrounding the vortex housing.
The hollow center of the spiral rings may allow us to several experiments including laser light, microwave and  special configured ultrasonic horn that can traverse the center. Fun stuff !! Can water retain a memory ?
 
Richard
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Description: Blank Bkgrd.gif Content-Id: <410-22005110663633602 13071999> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 6 01:29:54 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA69TR25013698; Sun, 6 Nov 2005 01:29:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA69TFEd013564; Sun, 6 Nov 2005 01:29:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 01:29:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=kPwDMejvQ0/xJlvLdOCiGtQ1EgUbPQz2AD7IiEU+Y6nrHhQW/E01+KuKGmEF34JV; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200511068288420 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re; ISS & Recycling old Ideas? Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 02:28:08 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94069c3f045cbb26a06722bf7dab0fef10e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.81 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64325 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Things change, or do they? Ten years ago on CompuServe Cold Fusioneer Jed Rothwell was being flamed by Forum Sysop Tom LeCompte,and Frank E. Reed, (University of Illinois) and the Brit Alan Dunsmuir, and the gal Mahariqe van Gans (sp) as AOL was getting the Internet started as it is now. Laid back, Bernard E. Beard was getting his PhD in Physics. Terry Blanton was the ace of the Encounters Forum. And lurking Carl Sagan sent me greetings from his hospital bed, but I didn't know how to hit "enter" to send the reply. (We had corresponded by phone & fax earlier). We managed the Terraformation of Venus and Mars and turned asteroids into space ships. Google pulls up LeCompte & Reed. Bernie Beard when to Memphis Tenn. Deja Vu all over again? :-) Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Things change, or do they?
 
Ten years ago on CompuServe  Cold Fusioneer Jed  Rothwell was being flamed by
Forum Sysop Tom LeCompte,and  Frank E. Reed, (University of Illinois) and the Brit
Alan Dunsmuir, and the gal Mahariqe van Gans (sp) as AOL was getting
the Internet started as it is now. Laid back, Bernard E. Beard was getting his PhD
in Physics. Terry Blanton was the ace of the Encounters Forum. And lurking Carl Sagan
sent me greetings from his hospital bed, but I didn't know how to hit "enter" to send the reply.
(We had corresponded by phone & fax earlier).
 
We managed the Terraformation of Venus and Mars and turned asteroids into
space ships.
 
Google pulls up LeCompte & Reed. Bernie Beard when to Memphis Tenn.
 
Deja Vu all over again?  :-)
 
Fred
 
 
 
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 6 03:37:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA6Bb4q3020966; Sun, 6 Nov 2005 03:37:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA6Bb3Z0020950; Sun, 6 Nov 2005 03:37:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 03:37:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Message-ID: <436DEAC4.9090203 iinet.net.au> Date: Sun, 06 Nov 2005 22:36:36 +1100 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: ISS References: <43698D86.9010203@iinet.net.au> <436B184A.8050300@iinet.net.au> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <_JeI4.A.SHF.erebDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64326 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >In reply to Wesley Bruce's message of Fri, 04 Nov 2005 19:14:02 >+1100: >Hi, >[snip] > > >>About the same. The time frame is not acceleration limited. Its limited >>by orbital windows. Some have proposed making a cycler using ISS >>modules. The minimum fuel option is a cycler. A cycler is a craft that >>orbits the sun in such a way that it takes a crew to Mars in three >>months and then swings around the sun unmanned to pick up a new crew. A >> >> > >Wouldn't this be going pretty fast as it passes the Earth, and >would that make it hard to catch up with it? > > Yes quite a delta t but your transfering only crew, baggage and some cargo not the mass of living quarters, power systems etc. I favor faster craft. > > >>second cycler going in the opposite direction would take three months to >>drop someone home from mars and then spend a year going around the sun. >> >>Ion engines are too slow for manned flight we want to go faster than >>three months for manned missions. That gives us three options. Avoiding >>solar flares, we have more than three months warning but less than six I >>believe. Some say we have more than a year but we've only looked at a >>years data from the new sats in close to the sun. Ion engines are OK for >>dead cargoes but solar sails can match ion engines and plasma sails beat >>them. The best sail design is at: >>http://www.ess.washington.edu/Space/propulsion.html >>2nPa is good thrust, better than Ion and you are not burning fuel. Also >>you can combine robotic craft with manned craft in a way they >>accumulates momentum in six unmanned craft. And then bounce them off the >>manned crafts fields. This takes a months acceleration from the solar >>wind and packs it into a few minutes of field interaction. This is my >>reusable reaction mass drive. Not yet published. >> >>If you could run a drive at one g continously Mars is 3 to 5 _days_ away >>but you'd need a hell of a bumper bar. >> >> > >How long would it take if you accelerated then decelerated? > That is the time if you accelerated for half the time and decel for half the time. no coasting. >Is there an online trip calculator? > > Not to my knowlage. > > >>Nuclear salt water rocket 0.1 g ~ 3 -5 weeks, a good plasma drive 0.01 >>g ~4 to 7 weeks, The best sail 0.005 ~6 to 9 weeks. >>Reactionless drives rule. Too bad about newtons laws. ;-) >> >> >[snip] > > >>Lab racks with power and cooling. Their not much use on mars because >>there systems are optimized for zero g. >>On mars you want your lab on the ground or better still in the rover. >> >> > >I should think that a space station orbiting Mars would be quite >useful. It could function as a planetary observatory, and as a >relay station for both information and supplies. A.o. it could >provide regular weather updates for ground crews. >The Mars mission, should not be seen as a "one shot", but rather >as the beginning of an ongoing program. Viewed in that light, a >space station in orbit makes a lot of sense. It could also >function as a staging post. Multiple shuttle trips between Mars >and the orbiting station could be then be made using fuel >manufactured on the surface. >[snip] > > You don't need to resupply and crew swap a Mars net robot sat. The russian are concidering a base on phobos. The delta t equations make phobos easyer than the moon. You dont have to land you just dock woth the big rock. That said the Japs are trying to dick a rover/hopper with an asteroid and it's prooving tricky. >>>What's the lifting capacity of the Russian's largest rocket? >>> >>> > >You missed this one. > > Sorry I don't really know. There are two or more Russian programs, all semiprivate now, the numbers change regularly and I'm not up to date. Energia is retired. The medium sized craft are their strenght. >[snip] > > >>>How many satellites are already in Mars orbit, and is there any >>> >>> >[snip] > > >>There's at least three and one on the way but there are >>incompatibilities and other problems in the current constellation. >> >> > >Doesn't sound like a lot of forward thinking went into that little >lot. > > Yep and they prang half the stuff they send into the planet or in on case the moon. > > > >>Mars >>Net is store and forward email, much bigger data streams and the sats >>can talk to each other in the same language so you can send 'live' >>video. >> >> > >If you have a constant real time link, then you don't need store >and forward capability, just a transfer capability. The storage >capability can exist on the main orbital vessel. > > It's a back up option. It means that if all but one breaks down then you've still got comms. > > >>Also their clocks are optimized for limited gps type navigation. >> >> > >Not so critical. Inertial navigation is currently pretty advanced, >so there is no real need for anyone to get lost. > > True for a rover but a good system for a man on foot with limited life support is required. >[snip] > > >>>BTW I don't think the Hafnium reactor is for real. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>You think it was a misinformation program or some thing. >> >> > >No, but AFAIK the initial indications that it worked haven't been >replicated. > > Thanks I thought there was at least a replication. >[snip] > > >>The half life must >>change as a consequence. >> >> > >I believe the idea was indeed to trigger the decays through x-ray >stimulation. > > > >>A a two kg neutron gun fires into a cavity lined with isotopes normally >>found in medium grade nuclear waste. They fission but they don't make >>enough neutrons to chain react. It can be turned off quickly. I'll >>check my source on that one the web page has moved on me. >> >> > >What's wrong with a simple reactor? >[snip] > > >>>Why not land the reactor portion of the main ship on Mars? Then >>>you can use the power from the main reactor to create all the fuel >>>you need in a short period of time. It would save the whole fuel >>>plant trip. It could also make enough fuel for it's own launch for >>>the return trip. The fuel plant could be taken along on the main >>>ship. Might be better than landing only to discover that the >>>previous fuel plant mission didn't quite work, and you now have no >>>way of getting back. If the crew + fuel plant landing doesn't >>>work, then the crew are probably dead, and not very interested in >>>coming back anyway. >>>[snip] >>> >>> >>> >>> >>Yes thats been thought of but if we have a big reactor on Mars then we >>can do anything. But would you go to mars with a reactor and fuel plant >>not knowing it will absolutly work. Send a robot. Make fuel to come >>home. check it worked and then go. >> >> > >Then you had better make sure that you have a video camera that >can actually see the fuel in the tank (sensors can be fooled). You >also need to know that the fuel is not contaminated. > > Good call The mars society has someone looking at such things. > > >>That way you garantee you'll get >>back. That said my moneys on cold fusion. But I would still make fuel >>with a fusion powered robot factory while I watched from the safty of earth. >> >> > >You might also consider a nuclear rocket for Mars takeoff. It >could initially use compressed CO2 for reaction mass, then operate >as a ram jet as it gained velocity. That way you wouldn't have to >make any fuel. > > Its already been designed and published. The papers in "Nuclear Rocketry using Indigenous Propellants: The key to the solar system. by Robert M ZubrinAnalog March 1990 pages32-49 I'm working on a cold fusion powered version using a plurality of small cold fusion cells, thermal transisters and radiowave heaters to replace the nuclear rockets. >>See: http://www.marssociety.org/ and http://www.marssociety.org.au/ >>and http://www.marshome.org/ for all the details. >> >> >> > >Actually, I think a large cave would probably make a much cheaper >abode. You need then only seal off the entrance(s). There are >bound to be a few lava tunnels somewhere. > > I'll have two please but the odds of finding Ice and a lava cave in the same place is low. The jackpot would be ice in a lava cave. >[snip] >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk > >http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > >Competition provides the motivation, >Cooperation provides the means. > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 6 03:55:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA6BsbLB025894; Sun, 6 Nov 2005 03:54:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA6BsYRY025864; Sun, 6 Nov 2005 03:54:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 03:54:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Message-ID: <436DEEE5.5070006 iinet.net.au> Date: Sun, 06 Nov 2005 22:54:13 +1100 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Podkletnov's Disks References: <410-220051165123048680 earthlink.net> <001001c5e20f$f774f030$e6017841@xptower> In-Reply-To: <001001c5e20f$f774f030$e6017841 xptower> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64327 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: RC Macaulay wrote: > Wes and Fred, > Force field reaction may be closer to describing the event. Yep but what lies at the heart of and defines the field, if not zpe then it must be something very new. Generally when we get a directional beam we get a flow of something. Photons, electrons, etc. Is it impossible to think in terms of a beam of zpe. Can I send pictures to vortex or do they get blocked or deleted? I have a crude jpeg diagram. > > Richard From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 6 04:23:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA6CMe4w001253; Sun, 6 Nov 2005 04:22:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA6CMcBU001222; Sun, 6 Nov 2005 04:22:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 04:22:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <436DF575.600 iinet.net.au> Date: Sun, 06 Nov 2005 23:22:13 +1100 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A low cost alternative to the space elevator References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051104101824.050c9480 pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20051104142241.043757e0@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20051104142241.043757e0 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64328 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hey folks, there is another site that may relate to this debate see: J. Slough & Louis Giersch http://www.ess.washington.edu/Space/PlasmaMag/ They are thinking a drive in the vacuum of space but it could be bagged to operate in the atmosphere. Mark If the fields so big it will have real or imaginary environmental effect to deal with. Indiced effects in matter near the launch site. By imaginary I mean screeming greenies at the launch site. I have a degree in the relevant fields, sustainable development and human ecology [ a very green degree you might say] if I can help check about environmental effects email me. Jed Rothwell wrote: > Mark Goldes wrote: > >> Geomagnetic propulsion is based on the use of the earth's magnetic >> field as a force field analogous to the stator of an electric motor. > > > I understand that. You might compare it to a linear motor railroad. > > >> In effect, it is as through the small artificial field source expands >> itself into a huge magnetic balloon, because of the low density of >> the earth's magnetic field. > > > Instead of using a physical plate you are making a huge virtual > magnetic plate. How huge? It would have to hundreds of square > kilometers, wouldn't it? How much energy does it take to make such a > gigantic field? > > >> Cohering the seemingly insignificant forces that act upon every point >> on the surface of the balloon, yields a considerable resultant force. > > > The forces that act on the balloon appear to be orders of magnitude > stronger than those you propose to harness. Helium balloons can be > very small, and I have made functional toy hot air balloons around 2 m > tall, out of paper. What is the smallest magnetic field you can > harness to launch a toy lifter of this design? You (or the inventor) > would have a great deal more credibility if you can demonstrate the > principle in a toy. > > - Jed > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 6 08:26:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA6GPYH7032355; Sun, 6 Nov 2005 08:25:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA6GPVCj032320; Sun, 6 Nov 2005 08:25:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 08:25:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=U/Wq3WVcpeaFpwpOQekKYgamF1kd+s0v/niK+48dPLIHBmf2tu3rqBc1DTXyILSjocOxkSvPhlR0z7X79oZjqshMQnQds4p/c01fMJx+PXaVUW8NOZFoyhdRgTts3jK3O+XdF0n0JlwGGO4aAyBRYbtGrIS93raP1wmFEgvTorg= ; Message-ID: <20051106162508.12058.qmail web81105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 08:25:07 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene Subject: OT: Addicted to Logic To: vortex-l MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64329 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Logic and problem-solving abilities are perhaps the two most impotant natural or "raw" mental traits we are born with, yet do we ever really take the time to try to improve them? Were it not for that bit of enticing logic itself, as stated above, I never would have gotten addicted. All I needed was on more intrusion into a busy schedule ;-) Now I am hooked. Yup, addicted to improving the capacity for logic, under the guise of a game. The game is called "Sudoku" and is very popular in Japan, and becomming a craze in the West. Like baseball, its popularity there belies it being an Ameican invention, but no matter who takes claim, it is definitely addictive. Sudoku puzzles are a simple 9x9 grid, with some numerical "hints" pre-placed, and range in difficulty from "gentle" to "diabolical." While it is asserted that each sudoku can be solved by logic alone, I am not fully convinced, having yet to solve the ones at the end (where of course I started, before realizing the "better part of valor" should prevail). I reccommend Will Shortz's introductory book, but - do yourself a favor and start at the first. The rules are trivial to learn, and no math ability is required, just patience and logic. The opening pages are a fairly complete set of strategems for solving the most difficult ones and guesswork is couter-productive (as you will quickly find out). The rules to Sudoku are trivial to learn, but the involvemnt quickly addicting (even on a "football" weekend). Will S., the acknowledged puzzle king, is becoming the regualr "connection" for millions of former couch-potatoes-turned-grid-junkies... and someone needs to rat him out to the Deptartment of Homeland Security. I'm sure this is an Al-Quedda "plant" to keep National attention diverted (or did Gilead/Halliburton play a role?). If you become addicted too, be aware that I am already considering starting a 12 step porgram - Sudohuholics Anonymous, even though I'v only been hooked for two days. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 6 18:27:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA72PjVA018269; Sun, 6 Nov 2005 18:26:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA72PgmY018230; Sun, 6 Nov 2005 18:25:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 18:25:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <3AB2240B6206D911B21500508B6D8E307A9203 caraupermb01.carrier-apac.com.au> From: John.Rudiger carrier.utc.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: OT - The politics of War Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 10:22:51 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C5E342.274268DC" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64330 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5E342.274268DC Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Times change, technology improves yet the "Politics of War" are eternal......! 'Naturally the common people don't want war: Neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. it works the same in any country.' --Hermann Goering, President of the Reichstag, Nazi Party, and the Luftwaffe Commander in Chief. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5E342.274268DC Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Message
Times change, technology improves yet the "Politics of War" are eternal......!
 
 
 
 
'Naturally the common people don't want war: Neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. it works the same in any country.'

--Hermann Goering, President of the Reichstag, Nazi Party, and the Luftwaffe Commander in Chief.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C5E342.274268DC-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 6 21:36:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA75ZbD8015862; Sun, 6 Nov 2005 21:35:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA75ZY5w015839; Sun, 6 Nov 2005 21:35:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 21:35:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: ISS Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2005 16:35:06 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <43698D86.9010203@iinet.net.au> <436B184A.8050300@iinet.net.au> <436DEAC4.9090203@iinet.net.au> In-Reply-To: <436DEAC4.9090203 iinet.net.au> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta04ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.59.28] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Mon, 7 Nov 2005 05:35:05 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id jA75ZAEm015728 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64331 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Wesley Bruce's message of Sun, 06 Nov 2005 22:36:36 +1100: Hi, [snip] >>>If you could run a drive at one g continously Mars is 3 to 5 _days_ away >>>but you'd need a hell of a bumper bar. >>> >>> >> >>How long would it take if you accelerated then decelerated? >> >That is the time if you accelerated for half the time and decel for half >the time. no coasting. Then why would you need "a hell of a bumper bar"? [snip] >>function as a staging post. Multiple shuttle trips between Mars >>and the orbiting station could be then be made using fuel >>manufactured on the surface. >>[snip] >> >> >You don't need to resupply and crew swap a Mars net robot sat. That's not really what I was referring to anyway. >The russian are concidering a base on phobos. Then they apparently see some value in the notion. >The delta t equations make >phobos easyer than the moon. You dont have to land you just dock woth >the big rock. That said the Japs are trying to dick a rover/hopper with >an asteroid and it's prooving tricky. May not be so difficult for a manned craft. No time lag in decision making. [snip] >It's a back up option. It means that if all but one breaks down then >you've still got comms. Ah, next time it comes around! :) >>Not so critical. Inertial navigation is currently pretty advanced, >>so there is no real need for anyone to get lost. >> >> >True for a rover but a good system for a man on foot with limited life >support is required. Anyone that walks so far that he is no longer in sight of his rover on another planet deserves whatever he gets. Mars is not like Earth, where one can be stopped by something as simple as a river. Rovers should be able to go anywhere a person can. The exception is climbing up mountains, or down into gorges, but a human in a space suit shouldn't be doing that either. That's what shuttles are for. IOW you fly there, you don't climb. Climbing on Mars will prove nearly always fatal. One rip in your suit, and you're a goner. [snip] >I'll have two please but the odds of finding Ice and a lava cave in the >same place is low. The jackpot would be ice in a lava cave. Judging by previous indications of water ice, it seems to be pretty wide spread in the polar region(s). The chances of finding a cave there as well, may be better than you think. A week spent in orbit first, would give plenty of opportunity to more closely examine previously identified potential sites, and make a final choice. Previously you mentioned a pebble bed reactor. What are you going to do about neutron shielding? (water?) If you used an ion drive, then human waste could be ionized and fed to the drive as reaction mass. That would mean that no separate reaction mass need be taken along, and the weight saved could be used for extra food and water for the crew. It would also mean that waste need not be recycled, which I'm sure the crew would prefer. Or don't the numbers add up? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 7 03:01:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA7B19fL016004; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 03:01:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA7B16UR015983; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 03:01:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 03:01:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAA+k= Message-ID: <436F33DD.8090404 iinet.net.au> Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2005 22:00:45 +1100 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: iss Then why would you need "a hell of a bumper bar"? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64332 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A continuous acceleration flight at one g, a tenth of a g or 0.01g; results in a maximum speed at the mid-point that is very fast so the relative velocity is huge even if you hit a tiny piece of matter, a micro-meteorite or a flake of paint from another ship. Micrometeorites are fast enough they could punch through multiple space station bulkheads. A conveniual rocket ship going to Mars is moving far faster yet both are almost stationary compared to a craft doing a continuous acceleration flight to anywhere. By bumper bar I meant a tank like armoured unpressurised hull on the out side of the craft so that if it is hit the hull itself is not punctured. However if the ship is carrying dead cargo: containers of food; water; fertilizer; building materials; tons of ore or a bulldozer; they can be loaded in such a way that they take the hit and save the ship. You need a way to check them for damage on arrival. In all cases advanced radar and good manoeuvring thrusters are needed to detect and dodge anything bigger than a pea. We would need to detect the pea at 50-100 km range and would need to dodge it by several ship diameters. A tall order. Any craft doing a run through space needs to look both ahead and off to the side in the direction that objects orbiting the sun will be coming from. Its amazing that we have successfully sent as many probes out into interplanetary space. Any one of them could have been killed by a single hit from a sand grain sized micrometeorite. If the Podkletnov device works out as a drive or John Searl’s device is confirmed then fast interplanetary flight is possible without the shield problem because both produce field effects that would push the smaller meteorites aside. The force beam Podkletnov describes would apply force out in front of the craft during acceleration. The beam would accelerate obstacles up to a high velocity in a few minutes or hours. If there is any tangential component to the particles movement the beam will push the pebble or sand grain aside. The catch is it would not put the beam out a head of its self while deceleration.That braking beam would be facing the wrong way. Likewise the high charge on the Searl saucer would first emit a bolt of lightening like electrostatic force that charged the pebble at a long range and then because like charges deflect, push them aside. The magnetic field waves he describes are interesting and might also push obstacles away. We would still want to dodge the pea. Particularly if it is coming in from an angle. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 7 08:22:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA7GMH0s014265; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 08:22:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA7GMF7L014253; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 08:22:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 08:22:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: [A-albionic_Subscription] Re: Electrostatic Hover Cars Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 10:21:52 -0600 Message-ID: <000001c5e3b7$5d6a1200$5c5e10ac eDentsply.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0001_01C5E385.12D1EBF0" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <6b.5105106a.309bc4de aol.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64333 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C5E385.12D1EBF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I find these posts highly entertaining mostly because they remind me of = the consultant gobbledygook generator... http://www.plainenglish.co.uk/generator.html =20 For those comfortable with editing a simple JavaScript array, you can = modify the inputs of this script with the pervasive jargon below and generate seemingly identical and indistinguishable nonsensical messages of your = very own. 8^) =20 =20 -john =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: ThomasClark123 aol.com [mailto:ThomasClark123@aol.com]=20 Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 1:54 PM To: A-albionic_Subscription yahoogroups.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [A-albionic_Subscription] Re: Electrostatic Hover Cars In a message dated 10/27/2005 2:55:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, = llow mco.edu writes: More on J. Searl's devices and other topics are contained in articles at = The Institute for New Energy website: http://www.padrak.com/ine/=20 Thanks for the links on the Searl engine. I read in the Scalar Waves = book by Konstantine Meyl, that the Searl Engines captured and used neutrino energies that come form the sun. Some of the Searl tiny flying saucers = which went out of control flew directly into the sun since they followed the neutrinos to the source in the sun. The sun being a black whole that = leads to the center of the universe collects and resonates with neutrinos from = the other stars at the center of the Universe. Ships made of light energy = by means of tesla teleportation coils which transmute matter into light as = in the Philadelphia experiment, can slip through the black whole in the sun = to travel to the center of the universe and other star systems by means of = the solar star network. Information made of light energy can also be transmitted between the universal solar star network from any sun to the center of the universe to any other sun. Traveling through the sun's = black whole along the energy rifts and around energy vortexes that lead to = other places in the universe in the 4th dimension can be dangerous since it is alleged that only machines or persons specially trained with brains genetically engineered to see the energy rifts in the 4th dimension may navigates ships safely.=20 =20 Baron Von Volsung, http://www.rhfweb.com/baron, Email: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html President Thomas D. Clark, Email: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html,=20 Personal Web Page: http://www.rhfweb.com/personal New Age Production's Inc., http://www.rhfweb.com/newage Star Haven Community Services, at http://www.rhfweb.com/sh Radiation Health Foundation Trust at http://www.rhfweb.com/ Making a difference one person at a time Get informed. Inform others. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C5E385.12D1EBF0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
I find these posts highly = entertaining=20 mostly because they remind me of the consultant gobbledygook = generator...=20  http://www.plaineng= lish.co.uk/generator.html
 
For those comfortable with editing = a simple=20 JavaScript array, you can modify the inputs of this script with the = pervasive jargon below and generate seemingly identical and = indistinguishable=20 nonsensical messages of your very own.  8^)
 
 
-john
 
    
-----Original Message-----
From: = ThomasClark123 aol.com=20 [mailto:ThomasClark123 aol.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 03, = 2005=20 1:54 PM
To: A-albionic_Subscription yahoogroups.com;=20 vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [A-albionic_Subscription] Re: = Electrostatic Hover Cars

In a message dated 10/27/2005 2:55:08 PM Eastern Standard Time,=20 llow mco.edu writes:
More on J. Searl's devices and other topics are contained = in=20 articles at The Institute for New Energy=20 website:
http://www.padrak.com/ine/
Thanks for the links on the Searl engine.  I read in the = Scalar Waves=20 book by Konstantine Meyl, that the Searl Engines captured and used = neutrino=20 energies that come form the sun. Some of the Searl tiny flying saucers = which=20 went out of control flew directly into the sun since they followed the = neutrinos=20 to the source in the sun.  The sun being a black whole that leads = to the=20 center of the universe collects and resonates with neutrinos from the = other=20 stars at the center of the Universe.  Ships made of light energy by = means=20 of tesla teleportation coils which transmute matter into light as in the = Philadelphia experiment, can slip through the black whole in the sun to = travel=20 to the center of the universe and other star systems by means of the = solar star=20 network.  Information made of light energy can also be transmitted = between=20 the universal solar star network from any sun to the center of the = universe to=20 any other sun.  Traveling through the sun's black whole along the=20 energy rifts and around energy vortexes that lead to other places = in the=20 universe in the 4th dimension can be dangerous since it is alleged = that=20 only machines or persons specially trained with brains genetically = engineered to=20 see the energy rifts in the 4th dimension may navigates ships safely. =
 
Baron Von Volsung, http://www.rhfweb.com/baron, = Email: http://www.rhfweb.com/email= form.html
President=20 Thomas D. Clark, Email: http://www.rhfweb.com/email= form.html,=20
Personal Web Page: http://www.rhfweb.com/personal
New=20 Age Production's Inc., http://www.rhfweb.com/newageStar=20 Haven Community Services, at http://www.rhfweb.com/sh
Radiati= on Health=20 Foundation Trust at http://www.rhfweb.com/

Maki= ng a=20 difference one person at a time
Get informed. Inform=20 others.
------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C5E385.12D1EBF0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 7 08:32:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA7GVYxB021513; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 08:31:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA7GVW8P021486; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 08:31:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 08:31:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003601c5e3b8$a7dccc00$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: OT: The French Connection Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 08:31:06 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0033_01C5E375.9901FBD0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64334 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0033_01C5E375.9901FBD0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Paris is burning... To the political cynic, even though some of this anger has obvious roots = in the socio-political situation in France vis-a-vis the Arab world = (plus a bit of down-home Franco-arrogance) ... hmmm.. there is still the = possibility that some it has the faint "odeur naus=E9abonde" of what the = yanks call "payback" and the French "vengeance ".=20 And speaking of the "lords of vengeance", I can almost see smug-grins in = smoke-filled rooms, as Warbuck-Euros are being passed around... = unless... and even worse, as is Kennedy claim, the payback to the = Marseilles-mafia, which has long-time connections to the CIA, was in = heroin seized in Afghanistan. ... as they say in Bayonne, "where there's smoke, there's fire" or to = Creole another idiom, it pays "Avoir le bras long". =20 Jacques Chirac and his close ally, Dominique de Villepin, have long = stoked French nationalism and proclaimed France to be the strategic = enemy of "American power", no? Paris has openly yearned to lead the European Union to its rightful = post-Napoleonic superpower status, and in order to accomplish this - = must undermine American "hegemony," and above all, do it for the eternal = grandeur of la belle France,no? . De Villepin has written many books vilifying the United States in terms = you wouldn't call you dog, no? In particular, the situation with the Iraq war betrayal and treachery = was absolutely deplorable to Cheney, Rummy & Co. - even though Chirac's = judgment proved to be correct (adding insult to injury) - this is = certainly a buildup for a certain kind of behind-the-scenes "vengeance = ". =20 Obviously, we did not necessarily instigate the current situation of = anarchy in Paris...but when opportunity knocks ...one wonders to what = extent the flames are "being fanned" by some outside influence, with = 'vengeance' as 'le motivation'? Jones Even if this is not true, don't be surprised if the French start blaming = US interests for the unrest. After all, they have their "spin doctors" = too. ------=_NextPart_000_0033_01C5E375.9901FBD0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Paris is burning...

To the = political cynic,=20 even though some of this anger has obvious roots in the socio-political=20 situation in France vis-a-vis the Arab world (plus a bit of down-home=20 Franco-arrogance) ... hmmm.. there is still the possibility that some it = has the=20 faint "odeur naus=E9abonde" of what the yanks call "payback" and the = French =20 "vengeance ".

And speaking of the "lords of vengeance", I can = almost see=20 smug-grins in smoke-filled rooms, as Warbuck-Euros are being passed = around...=20 unless... and even worse, as is Kennedy claim, the payback to the=20 Marseilles-mafia, which has long-time connections to the CIA, was = in heroin=20 seized in Afghanistan.
 
... as they say in Bayonne, "where = there's smoke,=20 there's fire" or to Creole another idiom, it pays "Avoir le bras=20 long".
 
Jacques Chirac and his close = ally,=20 Dominique de Villepin, have long stoked French nationalism and = proclaimed France=20 to be the strategic enemy of "American power", no?

Paris has openly yearned to lead the European Union to its = rightful=20 post-Napoleonic superpower status, and in order to accomplish this - = must=20 undermine American =93hegemony,=94 and above all, do it for the = eternal=20 grandeur of la belle France,no?
.
De Villepin has written many books vilifying the United States = in=20 terms you wouldn't call you dog, no?
 
In particular, the situation with the Iraq war betrayal and=20 treachery was absolutely deplorable to Cheney, = Rummy &=20 Co. - even though Chirac's judgment proved to be correct (adding = insult to=20 injury) - this is certainly a buildup for a certain kind of=20 behind-the-scenes "vengeance ".  

Obviously, we did not necessarily instigate the current = situation of=20 anarchy in Paris...but when opportunity knocks ...one wonders to what = extent the=20 flames are "being fanned" by some outside influence, with = 'vengeance' as=20 'le motivation'?

Jones
 
Even if this is not true, don't be surprised if the French start = blaming US=20 interests for the unrest. After all, they have their "spin doctors"=20 too.
------=_NextPart_000_0033_01C5E375.9901FBD0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 7 09:03:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA7H3B5R005503; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 09:03:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA7H35wm005440; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 09:03:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 09:03:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: OT: The French Connection X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 909b8a8ff0cae19159d456a4b333f05c Reply-To: michael.foster excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20051107170214.72F413D0C xprdmailfe10.nwk.excite.com> Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 12:02:14 -0500 (EST) Resent-Message-ID: <9OPJIB.A.7UB.Hj4bDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64335 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones wrote: > In particular, the situation with the Iraq war > betrayal and treachery was absolutely deplorable > to Cheney, Rummy & Co. - even though Chirac's > judgment proved to be correct (adding insult to > injury) - this is certainly a buildup for a > certain kind of behind-the-scenes "vengeance ". Mais peut-être le mot juste est "justice". M. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 7 09:25:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA7HOiKW015629; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 09:24:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA7HOQ50015540; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 09:24:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 09:24:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <049101c5e3bf$feaa9ce0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20051107170214.72F413D0C xprdmailfe10.nwk.excite.com> Subject: Re: OT: The French Connection Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 09:23:39 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64336 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: M, > Mais peut-être le mot juste est "justice". No disagreement there in the context of "poetic justice" ... yet in the context of les nouveau miserables... as always, the innocent poor pay the price... as in - collateral damage. Ah... French-a-la-mode, a study in contrasts: past imperfect, present subjunctive, and future conditional ... J. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 7 09:38:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA7HbMAQ026872; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 09:37:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA7HbHLT026797; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 09:37:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 09:37:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=VONvu+Or26hr9zpKMRo6JwQydpWtbHFMdFjvJ3Tu7s1mWKGfBBd4Ok6zsveW0ts/; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:User-Agent:References:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Disposition:Message-Id:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l eskimo.com, Wesley Bruce Subject: Re: ISS OT Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 12:52:00 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <200511031348.29717.rockcast@earthlink.net> <436C62B0.3040207@iinet.net.au> In-Reply-To: <436C62B0.3040207 iinet.net.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200511071252.01236.rockcast earthlink.net> X-ELNK-Trace: 161777525297e62b1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec7953897c30f4296e7eb43fe0e427808e00350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 71.115.182.204 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64337 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Repost of originals follows comment on reply. One of my wargames is a flight combat similator. An experienced fighter pilot was used as a technical advisor to the game. He adds some cogent commentary: There is no substitute for victory. The biggest problems combat pilots face in an aerial dogfight is not just winning the fight you know you are in, but not losing the fight that you do not know you are in. Aerial dogfights attract other participants like moths to a flame, and the combat pilot must be situationally aware of this....translation from a Luftwaffe ace. We are already in a military space race with China. Look at all the even recent spying events, the predatory computer invasion attempts by organized Chinese hacking groups. Look at the recent speeches by Chinese politicians talking about 'redressing the unipolar power structure...' That is political code in their governance system for global 'regime change' Look at the mysterious satellite left behind by the recent Chinese space shot. Look at Chinese pronouncements to get to the Moon one year ahead of even our fuzzy minded accountant guided bureauflunkyracy's nonplans... 2017 instead of our '2018'. Remember what happened to the JIMO project! Look at the Chinese plans for mining helium3 on the moon, and their plans to stake territorial claims along with their flags and their exploration teams. Look at their hiding their defense budgets, at their accelerated military buildups, at their piracy recently of Japanese oil rights in the sea between China and Japan in the Japanese exclusive economic sea zones. That piracy was backed up by 56 Chinese warships for which the Japanese have no counter. Look at the taking over of the Panama Canal by a front organization of the Peoples Army of China...The list is endless. One would have to be a fool or a coward or a Chinese agent not to see. And that is not even addressing what continency plans they have for us in case of war in North Korea. In addition, China is running out of fresh water and arable land to feed its population. It is seeking to control supplies of fuels around the world and to deny them to us. The only supply of fresh water to supply their needs in the short run is Lake Baikal in Russia. Russia better get its head out of its dreams of peace in Asia before it is too late. Chinese maps include all the Russian far east as its 'natural territory'. This warning about the most odious threat to our people and culture and values in the history of man is plainly evident to those who would open their eyes to see. And who also wrote: None are so blind as those who would not see. Maybe Anton Checkov was right. He is now probably weeping in his grave to see what is in store for his nation. Standing Bear On Saturday 05 November 2005 02:43, Wesley Bruce wrote: > Standing Bear wrote: > > [Big snip] > > Don't panic about a chinese space race. I suspect that if China really > gets going it will spell the end of communism. People are dropping out > of the party buy the millions. To many chinese who see the opportunities > of space, are also able to see that gulags on Mars wont work well. As a > citizen of a country founded as a convict settlement, Australia, I > happen to know that it can work but only if the govenor is a genious. If > a Mars Gulag fails that would be sad but what wonderful opportunities to > the free setttlers that follow to reclaim the ruin. > > Frankly I think we can make a nuclear reactor that works fine in a > meteor storm. If meteors are punching holes in things then the last > thing the crew would be worried about is the reactor! Big bumper bars > will be easy. Just stick the bulk cargo out front. So what if the bull > dozers got a hole in it! > > >I hope all of our suggestions don't eventually prove to be just > >academic. I just read an interview that the good people at > >nuclearspace.com had with some government agencies: > >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >------------------ quote from webpage-- > > NASA's Project Prometheus is in partnership with the Department of > >Energy's Office of Naval Reactors (DOE-NR) within the National Nuclear > >Security Administration (NNSA) to develop a space nuclear reactor for use > > in future robotic exploration activities. The Office of Naval Reactors > > (NR) is a joint Navy-DOE organization having responsibility and authority > > in both agencies. The Secretary of Energy assigned NR to partner with > > NASA in support of Project Prometheus solely as a DOE civilian project. > > > > > > We made an inquiry over current status in efforts to build a space > > reactor, nuclearspace.com (NS) contributors posed questions to the agency > > responsible for building a premier space nuclear reactor. DOE-NNSA/NR > > Public Affairs Officer, Kevin Davis declined an NS phone interview > > request, but in a written response to the following questions posed by NS > > contributors Ty Moore, Jaro Franta and Bruce Behrhorst responded; excerpt > > of text below...... > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >------------------------- > > > >there followed a long obviousely scripted 'interview'. All of the > > 'questions' appear to have been required to have prior submission and > > approval, and all the answers appear to be direct from the agencies > > public relations branch after being run through their general legal > > counsel. As such, most of the questions are ducked and evaded by the > > interviewee, who appears to sound like a classic broken record much of > > the time. The interviewee interjects 'probable lunar mission' or words > > to that effect into many of the questions that the agency did consent to > > have presented; and then gives a standard boiler plate denial of a > > 'lunar mission' over and over again. This is akin to the old rhetorical > > game of setting up a 'straw man' and knocking him down. The conclusions > > reached by NuclearSpace at the end were pessimistic about our prospects > > and our intents concerning realistic space exporation. I tend to agree > > with NuclearSpace in this, and wonder if the present administration only > > wants the programs around with minimum funding to use as photo ops and to > > show that it is 'doing something'. Even if it is wrong! It is > > evidently not now percieved in the national interest to invest seriousely > > in space, really. If so all our suggestions to this present > > administration are going to be ignored until circumstances change. Face > > it, present so called plans involve using some nebulous 'appolo' capsule > > of very small size considering what might have to be done, and chemical > > rockets all the way. No repair capability! If a micrometeoroid holes a > > tank and fuel is lost, too bad! And if a crew is lost...throw up ones > > hands and give up like the French in 1940.....as if this is the aim all > > along. But then the chem ships will use a lot of petrol, happily sold to > > the government by the oil and oil service people now primarily > > contracting in Iraq and the administration high official with well known > > connections to that company and its corporate child there with the three > > letters in its name. > > The Russians, God bless 'em, have a better vision. The Russian > > President said as much last March with an appeal for nuclear propulsion. > > Knowing they lack funds to do it themselves, the Russians appealed then > > for international cooperation on a joint venture or a series of them in > > order to go to Mars by 2017. > > The Europeans appear to be listening. They are joining with them to > >buy the Kliper. That little ship is 'cute', and it may prove quite > > practical. If some of the above other technologies prove viable, it can > > be a platform for a real shuttle all by itself. > > The Chinese may be listening as well. They have sought out the > > Russians for some close and secret agreements in recent months, many of > > which involve technology transfers and weapons system purchases. The > > Chinese 'Taikonaut' crew that just returned from orbit left behind a > > mystery satellite that they are NOT talking about. It is no secret that > > the Chinese have military interests in space. After all, it is the high > > ground. Look what we did to Iraq with just photos of 'insane hoosain's > > sites. > > For now we seem to have lost our ambition for space in a self > > fulfilling civil service miasma of paperwork and 'mission-plans' with > > open ended timelines extending to infinity, productive of nothing but > > 'cushy' retirements for political hacks given GS-18 jobs for hatchet jobs > > done elsewhere. And 'empire builders' that the civil list is known to be > > full of! Such was our military-political establishment in 1957 with > > regard to space. > > > > ---- Then came Sputnik! ------- > > > >Only this 'Sputnik' may be a little larger! > > > >And a little meaner! > > > >And have a Chinese name! > > > >And our government will act with its typical 'surprise'...... > > .........and the spin doctors will have another 'science gap'! > > > >Standing Bear > > > >We will go to space! The only question us under what conditions! > >It IS in our national vital interest whether we effectively realize it or > > not! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 7 12:29:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA7KSkkB031073; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 12:29:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA7KSidI031057; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 12:28:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 12:28:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT: The French Connection Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 07:28:18 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <4fdvm1l8k6fuu59qba9a5upofejrpjbeu3 4ax.com> References: <20051107170214.72F413D0C xprdmailfe10.nwk.excite.com> In-Reply-To: <20051107170214.72F413D0C xprdmailfe10.nwk.excite.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta03ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.59.28] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Mon, 7 Nov 2005 20:28:18 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id jA7KSNNv030832 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64338 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Michael Foster's message of Mon, 7 Nov 2005 12:02:14 -0500 (EST): Hi, [snip] > >Jones wrote: > >> In particular, the situation with the Iraq war >> betrayal and treachery was absolutely deplorable >> to Cheney, Rummy & Co. - even though Chirac's >> judgment proved to be correct (adding insult to >> injury) - this is certainly a buildup for a >> certain kind of behind-the-scenes "vengeance ". > >Mais peut-être le mot juste est "justice". Note that the French didn't actually *betray* anyone over Iraq, they simply refused to support a wrong position (loudly). They don't run around complaining about betrayal every time the US vetoes a resolution in the Security Council. A vote in the Security Council is democracy in action. Sometimes it doesn't go your way. Get used to it. The real problem is that the US is all for majority rule, as long as it is part of the majority, but when the shoe is on the other foot, it throws a temper tantrum like a small child. E.g. changing the name of "French fries". This was palpably a childish act. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 7 13:02:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA7L1rIW019172; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 13:02:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA7L1oK3019142; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 13:01:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 13:01:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: ISS OT Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 08:01:26 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <200511031348.29717.rockcast@earthlink.net> <436C62B0.3040207@iinet.net.au> <200511071252.01236.rockcast@earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <200511071252.01236.rockcast earthlink.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta02ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.59.28] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Mon, 7 Nov 2005 21:01:26 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id jA7L1VGm018813 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64339 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Standing Bear's message of Mon, 7 Nov 2005 12:52:00 -0500: Hi, [snip] Hasn't Iraq provided the military industrial complex with enough profit yet? They need a war with China as well? I assure you, after any such war, there would be no military industrial complex left (or much of anything else either for that matter). China is no little middle eastern country with a weakened army and no WMD. So China plays the same game internationally as the US. Tough, get used to it. Mind you, I am no supporter of the Chinese regime per se. But disposing of them is a job for their own people, not the "World Policeman". >Repost of originals follows comment on reply. > >One of my wargames is a flight combat similator. An experienced >fighter pilot was used as a technical advisor to the game. He adds >some cogent commentary: > There is no substitute for victory. > > The biggest problems combat pilots face in an aerial dogfight >is not just winning the fight you know you are in, but not losing the >fight that you do not know you are in. > > Aerial dogfights attract other participants like moths to a flame, >and the combat pilot must be situationally aware of this....translation > from a Luftwaffe ace. > > We are already in a military space race with China. Look at all the >even recent spying events, the predatory computer invasion attempts by >organized Chinese hacking groups. Look at the recent speeches by >Chinese politicians talking about 'redressing the unipolar power structure...' >That is political code in their governance system for global 'regime change' >Look at the mysterious satellite left behind by the recent Chinese space >shot. Look at Chinese pronouncements to get to the Moon one year ahead >of even our fuzzy minded accountant guided bureauflunkyracy's nonplans... >2017 instead of our '2018'. Remember what happened to the JIMO project! >Look at the Chinese plans for mining helium3 on the moon, and their plans >to stake territorial claims along with their flags and their exploration >teams. Look at their hiding their defense budgets, at their accelerated >military buildups, at their piracy recently of Japanese oil rights in the sea >between China and Japan in the Japanese exclusive economic sea zones. >That piracy was backed up by 56 Chinese warships for which the Japanese >have no counter. Look at the taking over of the Panama Canal by a front >organization of the Peoples Army of China...The list is endless. One would >have to be a fool or a coward or a Chinese agent not to see. And that is >not even addressing what continency plans they have for us in case of >war in North Korea. In addition, China is running out of fresh water and >arable land to feed its population. It is seeking to control supplies of >fuels around the world and to deny them to us. The only supply of fresh >water to supply their needs in the short run is Lake Baikal in Russia. >Russia better get its head out of its dreams of peace in Asia before it >is too late. Chinese maps include all the Russian far east as its 'natural >territory'. This warning about the most odious threat to our people and >culture and values in the history of man is plainly evident to those who >would open their eyes to see. > And who also wrote: None are so blind as those who would not see. > >Maybe Anton Checkov was right. > He is now probably weeping in his grave to see what is in store for his >nation. > >Standing Bear > > > > > > > > > > > > >On Saturday 05 November 2005 02:43, Wesley Bruce wrote: >> Standing Bear wrote: >> > [Big snip] >> >> Don't panic about a chinese space race. I suspect that if China really >> gets going it will spell the end of communism. People are dropping out >> of the party buy the millions. To many chinese who see the opportunities >> of space, are also able to see that gulags on Mars wont work well. As a >> citizen of a country founded as a convict settlement, Australia, I >> happen to know that it can work but only if the govenor is a genious. If >> a Mars Gulag fails that would be sad but what wonderful opportunities to >> the free setttlers that follow to reclaim the ruin. >> >> Frankly I think we can make a nuclear reactor that works fine in a >> meteor storm. If meteors are punching holes in things then the last >> thing the crew would be worried about is the reactor! Big bumper bars >> will be easy. Just stick the bulk cargo out front. So what if the bull >> dozers got a hole in it! >> >> >I hope all of our suggestions don't eventually prove to be just >> >academic. I just read an interview that the good people at >> >nuclearspace.com had with some government agencies: >> >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >------------------ quote from webpage-- >> > NASA's Project Prometheus is in partnership with the Department of >> >Energy's Office of Naval Reactors (DOE-NR) within the National Nuclear >> >Security Administration (NNSA) to develop a space nuclear reactor for use >> > in future robotic exploration activities. The Office of Naval Reactors >> > (NR) is a joint Navy-DOE organization having responsibility and authority >> > in both agencies. The Secretary of Energy assigned NR to partner with >> > NASA in support of Project Prometheus solely as a DOE civilian project. >> > >> > >> > We made an inquiry over current status in efforts to build a space >> > reactor, nuclearspace.com (NS) contributors posed questions to the agency >> > responsible for building a premier space nuclear reactor. DOE-NNSA/NR >> > Public Affairs Officer, Kevin Davis declined an NS phone interview >> > request, but in a written response to the following questions posed by NS >> > contributors Ty Moore, Jaro Franta and Bruce Behrhorst responded; excerpt >> > of text below...... >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >------------------------- >> > >> >there followed a long obviousely scripted 'interview'. All of the >> > 'questions' appear to have been required to have prior submission and >> > approval, and all the answers appear to be direct from the agencies >> > public relations branch after being run through their general legal >> > counsel. As such, most of the questions are ducked and evaded by the >> > interviewee, who appears to sound like a classic broken record much of >> > the time. The interviewee interjects 'probable lunar mission' or words >> > to that effect into many of the questions that the agency did consent to >> > have presented; and then gives a standard boiler plate denial of a >> > 'lunar mission' over and over again. This is akin to the old rhetorical >> > game of setting up a 'straw man' and knocking him down. The conclusions >> > reached by NuclearSpace at the end were pessimistic about our prospects >> > and our intents concerning realistic space exporation. I tend to agree >> > with NuclearSpace in this, and wonder if the present administration only >> > wants the programs around with minimum funding to use as photo ops and to >> > show that it is 'doing something'. Even if it is wrong! It is >> > evidently not now percieved in the national interest to invest seriousely >> > in space, really. If so all our suggestions to this present >> > administration are going to be ignored until circumstances change. Face >> > it, present so called plans involve using some nebulous 'appolo' capsule >> > of very small size considering what might have to be done, and chemical >> > rockets all the way. No repair capability! If a micrometeoroid holes a >> > tank and fuel is lost, too bad! And if a crew is lost...throw up ones >> > hands and give up like the French in 1940.....as if this is the aim all >> > along. But then the chem ships will use a lot of petrol, happily sold to >> > the government by the oil and oil service people now primarily >> > contracting in Iraq and the administration high official with well known >> > connections to that company and its corporate child there with the three >> > letters in its name. >> > The Russians, God bless 'em, have a better vision. The Russian >> > President said as much last March with an appeal for nuclear propulsion. >> > Knowing they lack funds to do it themselves, the Russians appealed then >> > for international cooperation on a joint venture or a series of them in >> > order to go to Mars by 2017. >> > The Europeans appear to be listening. They are joining with them to >> >buy the Kliper. That little ship is 'cute', and it may prove quite >> > practical. If some of the above other technologies prove viable, it can >> > be a platform for a real shuttle all by itself. >> > The Chinese may be listening as well. They have sought out the >> > Russians for some close and secret agreements in recent months, many of >> > which involve technology transfers and weapons system purchases. The >> > Chinese 'Taikonaut' crew that just returned from orbit left behind a >> > mystery satellite that they are NOT talking about. It is no secret that >> > the Chinese have military interests in space. After all, it is the high >> > ground. Look what we did to Iraq with just photos of 'insane hoosain's >> > sites. >> > For now we seem to have lost our ambition for space in a self >> > fulfilling civil service miasma of paperwork and 'mission-plans' with >> > open ended timelines extending to infinity, productive of nothing but >> > 'cushy' retirements for political hacks given GS-18 jobs for hatchet jobs >> > done elsewhere. And 'empire builders' that the civil list is known to be >> > full of! Such was our military-political establishment in 1957 with >> > regard to space. >> > >> > ---- Then came Sputnik! ------- >> > >> >Only this 'Sputnik' may be a little larger! >> > >> >And a little meaner! >> > >> >And have a Chinese name! >> > >> >And our government will act with its typical 'surprise'...... >> > .........and the spin doctors will have another 'science gap'! >> > >> >Standing Bear >> > >> >We will go to space! The only question us under what conditions! >> >It IS in our national vital interest whether we effectively realize it or >> > not! Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 7 20:51:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA84oq5G000949; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 20:51:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA84oojG000934; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 20:50:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 20:50:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: iss Then why would you need "a hell of a bumper bar"? Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 15:50:27 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <436F33DD.8090404 iinet.net.au> In-Reply-To: <436F33DD.8090404 iinet.net.au> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta02ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.59.28] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Tue, 8 Nov 2005 04:50:27 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id jA84oW84000738 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64340 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Wesley Bruce's message of Mon, 07 Nov 2005 22:00:45 +1100: Hi, [snip] >A continuous acceleration flight at one g, a tenth of a g or 0.01g; >results in a maximum speed at the mid-point that is very fast so the >relative velocity is huge even if you hit a tiny piece of matter, a >micro-meteorite or a flake of paint from another ship. Ah, I see. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 8 11:17:42 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA8JGu73002473; Tue, 8 Nov 2005 11:17:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA8JGgW7002296; Tue, 8 Nov 2005 11:16:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 11:16:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20051108110331.029740c0 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 11:10:40 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: Prius used as an emergency generator In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20051103100226.04f2b1b0 pop.mindspring.com> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051102170720.041449a0 pop.mindspring.com> <436981D4.6010807 ix.netcom.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20051103100226.04f2b1b0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64341 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Targus sells a DC-DC kit to go from the cigarette lighter directly into a laptop, no inverter required. Same kit works on airplanes. I've used an 800 watt inverter (direct to 12V battery terminals) along with a few long heavy duty power extension cables before, during earthquake-caused power outages to keep the fridge and a few fluorescant lights going . Very helpful. Wouldn't allow my computer UPSes to start however. The modified sine wave was detected as a power fault. To run non-laptops off an inverter you need a true sine wave inverter. s From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 8 18:17:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA92HCjw015725; Tue, 8 Nov 2005 18:17:27 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA92HB55015703; Tue, 8 Nov 2005 18:17:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 18:17:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <4e53tr$1bu2q3b mxip05a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.97,306,1125892800"; d="scan'208"; a="1474390123:sNHT529167520" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: OrionWorks Organization: OrionWorks To: CC: Subject: Re: OT:Electrostatic Hover Cars Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 20:16:42 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <5Is4K.A.O1D.mwVcDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64342 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: ThomasClark123 ... > We all may be in a time in history presently, were we may > be choosing and fighting over which past and which future > may come to be in our present and in our local region on > Earth. Different regions on Earth each have different > cultures, histories, pasts, and futures. Certainly > those who do not prefer one past history, may deny its > existence to hope to prevent its present and future. Despite my occasional jabs at your past interpretations I find there is much here that I am in agreement with. To what degree should this be considered symbolic interpretations and how much may actually be closer to literal truth is beyond my capacity to discern. To reinterpret a famous saying: Grant me serenity over the probabilities that I can't change, the courage to change the probabilities that I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Good comments, Baron. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 8 19:06:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA935ZtY031646; Tue, 8 Nov 2005 19:05:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA935X1q031628; Tue, 8 Nov 2005 19:05:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 19:05:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=G6DfErPxtC+AJtdD9z7hSk2NUYB6juwrSLjfj3L+bqeQWap16X1p3qh0AipmqElU; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:User-Agent:References:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Disposition:Message-Id:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: ISS OT Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 22:21:00 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <200511071252.01236.rockcast@earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200511082221.00542.rockcast earthlink.net> X-ELNK-Trace: 161777525297e62b1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79ed84c13214662a576fd6520abf2462de350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 71.115.182.204 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64343 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin and all, Nobody wishes more than I that we not be in our present situation. I spent many years in the service of my nation and know first hand about this enemy and what they are capable of. My ex wife who is from Viet-Nam can tell you more. Much more! The plain unhappy fact is that we are already in a fight with China whether we want to believe it or not. We can choose to ignore it and get buried, literally. Read my original post....again....please. Standing Bear From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 8 19:29:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA93TKpP009064; Tue, 8 Nov 2005 19:29:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA93TIKV009054; Tue, 8 Nov 2005 19:29:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 19:29:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=SvTaJuZCGB9HJcqh82hUVnEzR6ZBWqddILNxfYZ/h4cULH17w3O9LrWF54sLC7tB; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:User-Agent:References:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Disposition:Message-Id:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: iss Then why would you need "a hell of a bumper bar"? Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 22:44:47 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <436F33DD.8090404 iinet.net.au> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200511082244.47226.rockcast earthlink.net> X-ELNK-Trace: 161777525297e62b1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79c840466ec6a858177bf0448fd531790f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 71.115.182.204 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64344 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Monday 07 November 2005 23:50, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to Wesley Bruce's message of Mon, 07 Nov 2005 22:00:45 > +1100: > Hi, > [snip] > > >A continuous acceleration flight at one g, a tenth of a g or 0.01g; > >results in a maximum speed at the mid-point that is very fast so the > >relative velocity is huge even if you hit a tiny piece of matter, a > >micro-meteorite or a flake of paint from another ship. > > Ah, I see. > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > Competition provides the motivation, > Cooperation provides the means. Already have a 'bumper bar' in the form of some 'new' 'old' physics. That is 'Davis mechanics'. The Army even makes practical use of it for its tank gunnery. A hard shell can penetrate because of the high 'onset of acceleration' of the struck material when the shell hits. This is due according to Davis Mechanics to the real world behavior of the force equation commonly known as [F]= m[A] when the [] implies vectors. Now neglecting some calling 'm' as a kind of vector product of Higgs Force interaction, I propose that under Davis Mechanics the force equation would look something like this: [F] = m { (d[v]/dt) + (((d^2)[v]/d(t^2))^1) +...(((d^n)[v]/d(t^n))^(n-1))} which is a garden variety Taylor series. This quantifies the kinds of phenomena witnessed in the real world such as straws driven through creosoted hardwood utility poles and the use of the various nail guns used in the construction industry. Impact loads in my engineering curriculum were always taught as one of 'science's great mysteries' like the coefficient of gyration of non circular cross sections which I solved for one of my profs with an involved multidimensional multivarying calculus based exercise. Standing Bear From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 8 19:58:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA93wSKo021648; Tue, 8 Nov 2005 19:58:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA93wQnv021628; Tue, 8 Nov 2005 19:58:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 19:58:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=OQH9cSkX+BBnZ6hyqWK0I/zGQIMRFyXc67za2sWRFwD56HOGV2lc4qPgjo5REIFa; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:User-Agent:References:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Disposition:Message-Id:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l eskimo.com, Robin van Spaandonk Subject: Re: OT: The French Connection Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 23:13:54 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <20051107170214.72F413D0C xprdmailfe10.nwk.excite.com> <4fdvm1l8k6fuu59qba9a5upofejrpjbeu3@4ax.com> In-Reply-To: <4fdvm1l8k6fuu59qba9a5upofejrpjbeu3 4ax.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200511082313.54763.rockcast earthlink.net> X-ELNK-Trace: 161777525297e62b1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79f6bab196c62b323482202e5c53dbdea4350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 71.115.182.204 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id jA93w9gP021559 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64345 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Monday 07 November 2005 15:28, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to Michael Foster's message of Mon, 7 Nov 2005 12:02:14 > -0500 (EST): > Hi, > [snip] > > >Jones wrote: > >> In particular, the situation with the Iraq war > >> betrayal and treachery was absolutely deplorable > >> to Cheney, Rummy & Co. - even though Chirac's > >> judgment proved to be correct (adding insult to > >> injury) - this is certainly a buildup for a > >> certain kind of behind-the-scenes "vengeance ". > > > >Mais peut-être le mot juste est "justice". > > Note that the French didn't actually *betray* anyone over Iraq, > they simply refused to support a wrong position (loudly). > They don't run around complaining about betrayal every time the US > vetoes a resolution in the Security Council. > A vote in the Security Council is democracy in action. Sometimes > it doesn't go your way. Get used to it. > The real problem is that the US is all for majority rule, as long > as it is part of the majority, but when the shoe is on the other > foot, it throws a temper tantrum like a small child. > E.g. changing the name of "French fries". This was palpably a > childish act. > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk We actually DID betray the French, in wartime, in Dien Bien Phu back in the last century. The French were trying to hold onto their colony, Viet-Nam, then called French Indo-China. Cute name for an ancient country with a proud history of independance against Chinese aggression for over a thousand years. They even beat Ghengis Khan three times when they tried to invade them. The French thought they could do better. It was said by a German politician that the French should have been able to hold on to Viet-Nam as they 'had the best killers in Europe'. He was referring to the inside joke among world politicians that the foreign legion, heavily involved in the Viet-Nam campaign, was composed of very large numbers of former Deutschen Schutzstaffeln on the run from the Nuremburg Trials-----fugitive SS. Even Elie Wiesel looked the other way at the French use of these. Elie probably hoped, and was later vindicated in this, that southeast asia would become the graveyard of most of these psychopaths. Point of fact the French were losing because the level of casualties even among these people were becoming politically unacceptable to the French citizenry. DeGaulle turned to 'Give 'em Hell Harry' Truman for help, and ole' Harry came up with 'Operation Vulture' This was an Air Force plan to use the big silver birds, B-36's and the new then secret B-47s to bomb Viet-Minh army positions in the mountains around Dien Bien Phu in order to drive Mr. Ho Chi Minh to the conference table. Sound familiar?! Well Mr. Ho and Gen Vo (actually a cousin by marriage with my ex!!!!!! along with Madame Nhu) stood pat knowing they had a winning hand if they could just hold the People's Army together a little longer (not exactly a sure thing then). Problem for the beleagured former SS men cowering in the valley of death was that Truman did not run for re-election, preferring to go back to his farm in Missouri. This left 'I Like Ike' Eisenhower to make the actual decision to act on the warplan and gooood ole' smilin' Ike, whose picture hung like an insipid dream over just about every civil and uncivil servant's desk, decided to let the French hang out to dry. He cancelled the plan and put out the disinformation that 'we knew nothing about the plan' for public consumption. So Operation Vulture joined the UFO presence in the government's world of blissful non-existance. This incensed the French general staff, and one Gen DeGaulle in particular who saw it as a personal betrayal by a former comrade in arms, Ike. That betrayal rankles in French politics and colors its opinions and actions to this day. Standing Bear From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 8 22:41:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA96esSP027676; Tue, 8 Nov 2005 22:41:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA96eqB1027661; Tue, 8 Nov 2005 22:40:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 22:40:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: iss Then why would you need "a hell of a bumper bar"? Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 17:40:25 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <436F33DD.8090404 iinet.net.au> <200511082244.47226.rockcast@earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <200511082244.47226.rockcast earthlink.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta03sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.59.28] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Wed, 9 Nov 2005 06:40:25 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id jA96eUTe027524 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64346 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Standing Bear's message of Tue, 8 Nov 2005 22:44:47 -0500: Hi, [snip] I wonder if this is why flying saucers are saucer shaped? (A field generated around the perimeter would deflect everything either above or below the rest of the craft). >Already have a 'bumper bar' in the form of some 'new' 'old' physics. >That is 'Davis mechanics'. The Army even makes practical use of >it for its tank gunnery. A hard shell can penetrate because of the >high 'onset of acceleration' of the struck material when the shell hits. >This is due according to Davis Mechanics to the real world behavior >of the force equation commonly known as [F]= m[A] when the [] implies >vectors. Now neglecting some calling 'm' as a kind of vector product >of Higgs Force interaction, I propose that under Davis Mechanics the force >equation would look something like this: > > [F] = m { (d[v]/dt) + (((d^2)[v]/d(t^2))^1) +...(((d^n)[v]/d(t^n))^(n-1))} > >which is a garden variety Taylor series. This quantifies the kinds of >phenomena witnessed in the real world such as straws driven through >creosoted hardwood utility poles and the use of the various nail guns >used in the construction industry. Impact loads in my engineering >curriculum were always taught as one of 'science's great mysteries' >like the coefficient of gyration of non circular cross sections which I solved >for one of my profs with an involved multidimensional multivarying calculus >based exercise. > >Standing Bear > Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 9 04:15:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA9CFN9F008500; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 04:15:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA9CFKOr008477; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 04:15:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 04:15:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: ISS OT Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 23:14:54 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <200511071252.01236.rockcast@earthlink.net> <200511082221.00542.rockcast@earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <200511082221.00542.rockcast earthlink.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta01sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.59.28] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Wed, 9 Nov 2005 12:14:55 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id jA9CF19F008148 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64347 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Standing Bear's message of Tue, 8 Nov 2005 22:21:00 -0500: Hi, [snip] >Robin and all, > Nobody wishes more than I that we not be in our present >situation. I spent many years in the service of my nation and >know first hand about this enemy and what they are capable of. >My ex wife who is from Viet-Nam can tell you more. Much more! >The plain unhappy fact is that we are already in a fight with China >whether we want to believe it or not. We can choose to ignore >it and get buried, literally. Read my original post....again....please. [snip] Previously you wrote: >We are already in a military space race with China. Of course you are. But that is true of all space faring nations. The question is more, how serious is it? Answer IMO, not very. The US is currently China's largest export market AFAIK, so it is not really in their interest to engage militarily. OTOH, they don't want to be left behind either, and right now, that's where they perceive themselves to be. >Look at all the >even recent spying events, the predatory computer invasion attempts by >organized Chinese hacking groups. All parties engage in this, but you only hear about it when "the other guy" does it. >Look at the recent speeches by >Chinese politicians talking about 'redressing the unipolar power structure...' After the breakup of the Soviet Union, that's exactly what the world got. A single major super-power; the US. So in that respect, the Chinese are correct. It *is* a "unipolar power structure". By redressing it, they mean that they also intend to become a super power, so that the US can't push them around the way it does smaller nations. >That is political code in their governance system for global 'regime change' No, "regime change" is a US invention, not Chinese. >Look at the mysterious satellite left behind by the recent Chinese space >shot. Probably a spy satellite.....like the dozens that the US has in orbit. >Look at Chinese pronouncements to get to the Moon one year ahead >of even our fuzzy minded accountant guided bureauflunkyracy's nonplans... >2017 instead of our '2018'. So you now have a bit of competition. :) Isn't that what your whole economy is based on? >Remember what happened to the JIMO project! Sorry, I have no idea what happened to it. >Look at the Chinese plans for mining helium3 on the moon, and their plans >to stake territorial claims along with their flags and their exploration >teams. ...and this is different to US plans...how? >Look at their hiding their defense budgets, ...I believe you call your hidden projects "black ops"? >at their accelerated >military buildups, pot calling kettle, come in kettle, pot here, over. >at their piracy recently of Japanese oil rights in the sea >between China and Japan in the Japanese exclusive economic sea zones. ..at your piracy of Iraqi oil, in Iraq itself. >That piracy was backed up by 56 Chinese warships for which the Japanese >have no counter. I would list the weaponry the US used in Iraq, but the email would get too long. >Look at the taking over of the Panama Canal by a front >organization of the Peoples Army of China...The list is endless. ...and yet not as long as the list of US "interventions" around the World. >One would >have to be a fool or a coward or a Chinese agent not to see. You see the splinter in your neighbors eye, but not the beam in your own. >And that is >not even addressing what continency plans they have for us in case of >war in North Korea. In addition, China is running out of fresh water and >arable land to feed its population. Then help us find a new source of energy, and at least this problem will be solved. (With water, the desert becomes arable). >It is seeking to control supplies of >fuels around the world and to deny them to us. ...and of course the US isn't doing that. >The only supply of fresh >water to supply their needs in the short run is Lake Baikal in Russia. >Russia better get its head out of its dreams of peace in Asia before it >is too late. I doubt the Russians are nearly as worried as you seem to be. >Chinese maps include all the Russian far east as its 'natural >territory'. This warning about the most odious threat to our people and >culture and values in the history of man is plainly evident to those who >would open their eyes to see. The biggest threat to the US at the moment already controls the nation. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 9 06:47:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA9Ekkds022459; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 06:47:05 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA9Ekgei022415; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 06:46:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 06:46:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <4enjqj$1kqu1ma mxip19a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.97,308,1125892800"; d="scan'208"; a="1773078218:sNHT31044660" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: OrionWorks Organization: OrionWorks To: CC: Subject: Nanotech Breakthrough - Organic Solar Cells at 6% Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 8:46:16 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64348 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vorts, Not sure if this is a rehash of old news but here's an interesting article on a recent Nanotech breakthrough pertaining to organic solar cells. Researchers at Wake Forest and New Mexico State University have reached 6 percent efficiency. The ultimate goal is to reach 10 percent efficiency (hopefully by October 2006) which they claim should make organic solar cell technology economically viable. See: http://www.physorg.com/news7967.html Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 9 08:00:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA9Fxs1D029842; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 08:00:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA9FxpNp029815; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 07:59:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 07:59:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Originating-IP: [4.88.33.81] Mime-Version: 1.0 From: "gesrebspar juno.com" Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 15:57:39 GMT To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT: The French Connection X-Mailer: Webmail Version 4.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <20051109.075829.14954.41001 webmail38.nyc.untd.com> X-ContentStamp: 4:6:4229066982 X-UNTD-OriginStamp: GUNT6dKCgH8aoKLPKyRSHk68tB/XJaGQKumkLxCXiuFFzr2UFeD1Xw== X-UNTD-Peer-Info: 10.141.27.178|webmail38.nyc.untd.com|webmail38.nyc.untd.com|gesrebspar juno.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id jA9FxRY3029497 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64349 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vortexians- The situation in France is a preview of coming attractions. I would be more inclined to think the Al-quada is helping to encourage the unrest. The only real and long time solution is a repatronization of the Muslim's and others back to there home lands in Africa. The Muslim's will probably use this to get more hand outs from the French government. In the end when the Muslim's become the majority the Christians will be slowly eliminated It will be a Muslim state.The Muslims in there beliefs do not believe in freedom of religion.But they don't mind using freedom of religion to destroy the host country. - Ges- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 9 10:54:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA9IrqhW003926; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 10:54:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA9IrnUM003904; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 10:53:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 10:53:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=S8Hh9+RvrJuP7q6wb3SZw9U9PhabN4kEwL7jfi8klwSYsKIPyMRxqfK1O/2HWhuLi0UL5kpwLNoZY99bt+EjTKgZJSkNSLk7cSFCwA6yZj5KfKPvly6ud2SdGtMjF4y3+BSgiekywxb2nYhBaZWIux//puFlwJJx/rLjNPYsteo= ; Message-ID: <20051109185328.39270.qmail web32208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 10:53:28 -0800 (PST) From: Merlyn Subject: Vertical Axis wind turbine To: Vortex MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <8hYevD.A.88.9WkcDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64350 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://opensourceenergy.org/txtlstvw.aspx?LstID=99b82ae5-287f-4bb4-868d-2a44417a564b "Design creates pull on the back side, contributing to 40%+ wind conversion efficiencies; doesn't kill birds; runs more quietly; and doesn't need to be installed as high, blending better with landscape. Generating costs estimated at 3.5 cents per kilowatt-hour, surpassing conventional energy sources." He is designing units for between 1 kW for home use and 1 MW for utility power generation. The 1 kW unit is 18' high overall, the 1 MW unit is 220'. Merlyn Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist __________________________________ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 9 13:47:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA9LkSHj016664; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 13:46:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA9LkQ2p016652; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 13:46:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 13:46:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Message-ID: <43726E20.3040708 iinet.net.au> Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 08:46:08 +1100 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: ISS OT References: <200511031348.29717.rockcast@earthlink.net> <436C62B0.3040207@iinet.net.au> <200511071252.01236.rockcast@earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <5uv7oD.A.IEE.y4mcDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64351 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >In reply to Standing Bear's message of Mon, 7 Nov 2005 12:52:00 >-0500: >Hi, >[snip] > >Hasn't Iraq provided the military industrial complex with enough >profit yet? They need a war with China as well? I assure you, >after any such war, there would be no military industrial complex >left (or much of anything else either for that matter). China is >no little middle eastern country with a weakened army and no WMD. >So China plays the same game internationally as the US. Tough, get >used to it. >Mind you, I am no supporter of the Chinese regime per se. But >disposing of them is a job for their own people, not the "World >Policeman". > > I agree; both of you make very good points. Its the enemy you don't see that will kill you. Yet my point still stands the communist party in China is bleeding members in huge numbers. We can't rule out a collapse of communism in China or a shattering of the peoples republic, both would be messy, very messy. Hopefully cool heads may prevail, a lot of old party bosses have gotten rich lately and the newly rich tend to see war or civil war as a great threat to the shiny new cities they have built. Poorer provences further west and farm boys from the countryside may be the only people rushing into the millitary. > > >> >> We are already in a military space race with China. >> Agreed. If China get to the moon next it wont do much harm. It will consolidate the possition of space as the long term fronteer it is. The carrying capacity of earth is about 8-10 billion, we are aproaching 6.5. The carrying capacity of outerspace is 30 to 50 billion with conventional technology. 70 billion if we invent self propergating technologies: Dyson trees on mars and self assembling space stations elsewhere. If China gets the moon I can sell them my one g artificial gravity system. I really do have an artificial gravity system for the moon and mars. It's amazingly simple. >> This warning about the most odious threat to our people and >>culture and values in the history of man is plainly evident to those who >>would open their eyes to see. >> And who also wrote: None are so blind as those who would not see. >> >>Maybe Anton Checkov was right. >> He is now probably weeping in his grave to see what is in store for his >>nation. >> >> At this stage China can afford to buy what it wants in Russia and there are towns in the Russian far east that are staving for capital. They'll take anyone’s money. These's some suspicion that a lot of the illegal porn on the web comes from near bankrupt communities in the Russian far east that are too poor to fight off the mafia kiddie porn crews that swing from town to town. Standing Bears warning is valid for some in China but watch out for india also. The Indian Hindu fundimentalists, BJP etc may return to power and they are just as dangerous to non hindus in India and places where indians are a large minority: the pacific, south east asia and the carrabian. The risk of a show down bettween india and china over world resources can't be ruled out. With the new energy resources described by many Vorts we could defuse the global resource shortages and head off any fight. We need cold fusion, hyperconductors, cheap maintinance free solar and anything else that will work. Give me energy and I'll give you clean water from the air, steel from dust, and Car bodies from sewerage. If you can figgure out how those three work you win a prize. Got to go. I just remembered its my birthday. Party time. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 9 13:55:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA9Lt2li020536; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 13:55:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA9Lswi3020499; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 13:54:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 13:54:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: "Rick Monteverde" To: Subject: Lichens on mars? - space experiment results Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 11:54:18 -1000 Message-ID: <006f01c5e578$27871e90$d901a8c0 dtqf101> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 In-Reply-To: <20051109185328.39270.qmail web32208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - server26.fastbighost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - highsurf.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64352 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace (and others) here on Vortex noticed the similarity between certain features seen in the microphotographs of mars rocks and lichens here on earth. I checked some lichens on a garden rock in my front yard with a 10x loupe, and was surprised to see how similar the features were to the mars photos - Horace is right. Now experiment proves some lichens do fine for a while when fully exposed to the vacuum and harsh radiation of the actual near-earth space environment: http://www.spacedaily.com/news/life-05zzzzzzzr.html Other recent conclusions regarding the possible sources of self-replenishing martian methane exclude volcanic origin, which further exposes biology as a remaining possibility. If it is biology, algae is a suspect - lichens are an algae/fungus symbiotic system, and I believe at least some lichens do produce methane. http://www.newscientistspace.com/article.ns?id=dn8256 - R. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 9 13:55:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA9Lt6OA020606; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 13:55:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jA9Lt4Yl020572; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 13:55:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 13:55:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Message-ID: <43727023.2010604 iinet.net.au> Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 08:54:43 +1100 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Nanotech Breakthrough - Organic Solar Cells at 6% References: <4enjqj$1kqu1ma mxip19a.cluster1.charter.net> In-Reply-To: <4enjqj$1kqu1ma mxip19a.cluster1.charter.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64353 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: OrionWorks wrote: >Vorts, > >Not sure if this is a rehash of old news but here's an interesting article on a recent Nanotech breakthrough pertaining to organic solar cells. Researchers at Wake Forest and New Mexico State University have reached 6 percent efficiency. The ultimate goal is to reach 10 percent efficiency (hopefully by October 2006) which they claim should make organic solar cell technology economically viable. > >See: > >http://www.physorg.com/news7967.html > >Regards, >Steven Vincent Johnson >www.OrionWorks.com > > > I'll settle for 6% if the cheap and robust. Plastic solar cells need to be sealed against the air or they regrade faster than silicon so making them cheap, robust and 10% may be a tall order. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 9 18:44:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAA2hwo0012859; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 18:44:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAA2htVt012826; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 18:43:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 18:43:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4372B3CF.7080405 pobox.com> Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 21:43:27 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.10) Gecko/20050719 Fedora/1.7.10-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT: The French Connection References: <003601c5e3b8$a7dccc00$6401a8c0 NuDell> In-Reply-To: <003601c5e3b8$a7dccc00$6401a8c0 NuDell> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64354 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > Paris is burning... A little more precision seems called for. For the most part, it's the suburbs, not Paris itself -- in particular, it's the poor Muslim suburbs, not the well-to-do Catholic city. "Banlieue de paris", not "ville de paris". As usual, the angry youth of the underclass are destroying their own neighborhoods in the riots, without doing much damage to those against whom their anger is directed. And at that, it's mostly the cars, not the buildings, not the living quarters. However, businesses is the Muslim areas have also been hit (and are most likely moving out, never to return -- who does this hurt?). So, "Paris is burning" is a bit of an exaggeration. In fact, the riots are very VERY reminiscent of the race riots we had here in the U.S. back in the 60's, save that in that era, it would have been far more accurate to say, for instance, "New York is burning" or "Philadelphia is burning" than it is today to say "Paris is burning". One advantage France has is that they have Villepin, who, hateful as he is to many Americans, appears to have at least half a brain on board, and in their whacky system, they've also got Sarkozy, whom I can't figure out but who also seems to have some amount of sense. Back during the riots in this country, we had Johnson, about whom the less said the better... > > To the political cynic, even though some of this anger has obvious > roots in the socio-political situation in France vis-a-vis the Arab > world (plus a bit of down-home Franco-arrogance) ... hmmm.. there is > still the possibility that some it has the faint "odeur nauséabonde" > of what the yanks call "payback" and the French "vengeance ". So France made the mistake of letting in a large number of Muslim immigrants and now they're having vengeance visited on them on account of that? This is along the lines of "No good turn goes unpunished", eh? > > And speaking of the "lords of vengeance", I can almost see smug-grins > in smoke-filled rooms, as Warbuck-Euros are being passed around... > unless... and even worse, as is Kennedy claim, the payback to the > Marseilles-mafia, which has long-time connections to the CIA, was in > heroin seized in Afghanistan. > ... as they say in Bayonne, "where there's smoke, there's fire" or to > Creole another idiom, it pays "Avoir le bras long". > > Jacques Chirac and his close ally, Dominique de Villepin, have long > stoked French nationalism and proclaimed France to be the strategic > enemy of "American power", no? > > Paris has openly yearned to lead the European Union to its rightful > post-Napoleonic superpower status, and in order to accomplish this - > must undermine American “hegemony,” and above all, do it for the > eternal grandeur of la belle France,no? > . > De Villepin has written many books vilifying the United States in > terms you wouldn't call you dog, no? > In particular, the situation with the Iraq war betrayal and treachery > was absolutely deplorable to Cheney, Rummy & Co. - even though > Chirac's judgment proved to be correct (adding insult to injury) - > this is certainly a buildup for a certain kind of behind-the-scenes > "vengeance ". How on Earth do you get off claiming they "betrayed" Cheney et al? They never promised to follow the USA into any war no matter how stupid, and they never said they believed in the WMDs and then backed out -- in short they did nothing to "betray" Cheney. They just didn't _support_ him. So what? I didn't either, and neither did a lot of other people. > > Obviously, we did not necessarily instigate the current situation of > anarchy in Paris...but when opportunity knocks ...one wonders to what > extent the flames are "being fanned" by some outside influence, with > 'vengeance' as 'le motivation'? No need to assume anything of the sort, IMHO. It's a tinderbox situation. The taux de chaumage is sky-high in the poor 'burbs and has been for ages, and all the government's done so far (rather, all they've done which is visible to the poor youths of the "outer city") is bring in Sarkozy as minister of the interior, amd he's been saying all undocumented aliens must leave _NOW_ because _THEY_ are the problem ... and, of course, in fits and starts, fuel prices are heading for the sky, which is not helping anything, I'm sure. And I don't know what-all else has been going wrong, but in that charged atmosphere a couple of accidental electrocutions were enough to touch off an explosion. (Of course, the cops say the electrocutions were accidental, but the poor folks on the ground where the kids died don't believe it, and, assuming cops are the same all over the world, I would not hazard to guess from 3000 miles away who's right...) > > Jones > Even if this is not true, don't be surprised if the French start > blaming US interests for the unrest. Pfui. The French-language press is doing no such thing. The problem in Paris stems from the existence of poor Muslim ghettos which are a hangover from the French colonial era, and the United States had nothing to do with that. Furthermore, the event which touched off the riots was, as I already mentioned, the accidental electrocution of a couple of Muslim youths who were being chased by the police. They were French police, not United States police, and French youths, and it was a French power main, and it's absurd to think anyone sees the hand of the United States anywhere in that incident. There is absolutely no need to assume anything more is present than meets the eye, because the situation which meets the eye is bad enough all by itself to explain all that's going on. And, incidentally, some of the same things have been going on in eastern Germany, though on a much smaller scale, and some of the same problems exist in other parts of Europe as well. > After all, they have their "spin doctors" too. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 9 18:48:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAA2llRF014610; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 18:48:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAA2lggE014554; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 18:47:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 18:47:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000a01c5e5a1$09eb5440$45027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: O.T. : Disclosure project ?? Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 20:47:05 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01C5E56E.BEB20C30" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.6 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,HTML_MESSAGE,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: <-w6S2D.A.RjD.NTrcDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64355 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C5E56E.BEB20C30 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0007_01C5E56E.BEB20C30" ------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C5E56E.BEB20C30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankWho is Dr. Steven Greer? Is he an advocate of free energy or just a = UFO and conspiracy buff? http://www.disclosureproject.org/ Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C5E56E.BEB20C30 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Who is Dr. Steven Greer? Is he an advocate of free energy or just a = UFO and=20 conspiracy buff?

 http://www.disclosureproject.o= rg/

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C5E56E.BEB20C30-- ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C5E56E.BEB20C30 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000501c5e5a1$093ec090$45027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C5E56E.BEB20C30-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 9 19:16:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAA3FpS1030009; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 19:16:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAA3Fehq029903; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 19:15:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 19:15:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4372BB3A.20802 pobox.com> Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 22:15:06 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.10) Gecko/20050719 Fedora/1.7.10-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT: The French Connection References: <20051109.075829.14954.41001 webmail38.nyc.untd.com> In-Reply-To: <20051109.075829.14954.41001 webmail38.nyc.untd.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64356 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: gesrebspar juno.com wrote: >Vortexians- The situation in France is a preview of coming attractions. > I would be more inclined to think the Al-quada is helping > to encourage the unrest. > > It's certainly conceivable that they're fanning the flames, though as I've already mentioned elsewhere in the thread it's easy to believe there is nothing going on beyond the obvious, for the situation is bad enough to account for this all by itself. > The only real and long time solution is a repatronization > of the Muslim's and others back to there home lands in > Africa. > > Hmmph. This almost sounds like a quote from some of the bigots I knew, a long, long time ago. But let me explain. Back when I was younger, there were race riots in the cities in the United States. They were rather bad -- a lot worse than what's going on in Paris, in fact. I remember a lot of things being said at the time, including statements by many middle-class white folks that the ONLY solution was to round up all the blacks and send them back to Africa, because they could NEVER be assimilated and would RUIN the country if we didn't get rid of them. They weren't "sent back" (obviously). In spite of that, it's been quite a while since we had major race riots in this country, and as far as I can see the country hasn't been "ruined" by its racial impurity. For those who've totally forgotten the 60's, here's a quote from, IIRC, the mayor of Miami: "When the looting starts, the shooting starts" This was part of his "explanation" of his orders to the police to shoot to kill, on sight, anyone seen looting. Did you see "Joe"? There were some priceless quotes by Joe near the start of the film, that mirrored very well a lot of folks' feelings at the time. So now we're hearing the same sorts of statements about the Muslim communities in Europe, once again based on the assumption that "now is forever" and things can't change except to get worse. > The Muslim's will probably use this to get more hand outs > from the French government. > Say what? France is, to a large extent, a socialist country. Everyone's entitled to handouts already, and anybody lucky enough to be working is entitled to 5 weeks of paid vacation and a 35 hour work-week the rest of the year. I don't think the Muslim community in France wants more than their "fair share", at least considering how that's defined in that country. I've heard negative things about Muslims -- I even _believe_ some rather negative things about Muslims -- but the notion that all they want is "handouts", that they wouldn't rather work if they had the chance, strikes me as absurd. > In the end when the Muslim's > become the majority > Now, perhaps, you see the wisdom of the Pope's proscription of birth control among Catholics... > the Christians will be slowly eliminated > It will be a Muslim state.The Muslims in there beliefs do > not believe in freedom of religion.But they don't mind > using freedom of religion to destroy the host country. > - Ges- > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 9 19:18:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAA3IIF2031302; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 19:18:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAA3IHVu031282; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 19:18:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 19:18:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4372BBDE.5090804 pobox.com> Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 22:17:50 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.10) Gecko/20050719 Fedora/1.7.10-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: Robin van Spaandonk Subject: Re: OT: The French Connection References: <20051107170214.72F413D0C xprdmailfe10.nwk.excite.com> <4fdvm1l8k6fuu59qba9a5upofejrpjbeu3@4ax.com> <200511082313.54763.rockcast@earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <200511082313.54763.rockcast earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64357 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Standing Bear wrote: > >We actually DID betray the French, in wartime, in Dien Bien Phu back >in the last century ... > [fascinating post snipped -- thank you, SB!] Holy Moly! Is this true? Can you provide a reference to anything more complete on this? I always thought DeGaulle was just obnoxious -- it never occurred to me there might have been a _reason_ for it! > >Standing Bear > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 9 19:23:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAA3MVdL032760; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 19:22:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAA3MS6M032725; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 19:22:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 19:22:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <012d01c5e5a5$d65d9930$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <003601c5e3b8$a7dccc00$6401a8c0 NuDell> <4372B3CF.7080405@pobox.com> Subject: Re: OT: The French Connection Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 19:21:27 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64358 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence >> Even if this is not true, don't be surprised if the French >> start blaming US interests for the unrest. > > Pfui. The French-language press is doing no such thing. http://fr.news.yahoo.com/07112005/202/violences-urbaines-en-france-la-faute-la-cia-selon-jirinovski.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 9 19:40:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAA3dul9006256; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 19:40:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAA3dteg006237; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 19:39:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 19:39:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4372C0F2.3060300 pobox.com> Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 22:39:30 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.10) Gecko/20050719 Fedora/1.7.10-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT: The French Connection References: <003601c5e3b8$a7dccc00$6401a8c0 NuDell> <4372B3CF.7080405@pobox.com> <012d01c5e5a5$d65d9930$6401a8c0@NuDell> In-Reply-To: <012d01c5e5a5$d65d9930$6401a8c0 NuDell> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64359 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > Stephen A. Lawrence > >>> Even if this is not true, don't be surprised if the French start >>> blaming US interests for the unrest. >> >> >> Pfui. The French-language press is doing no such thing. > > > > http://fr.news.yahoo.com/07112005/202/violences-urbaines-en-france-la-faute-la-cia-selon-jirinovski.html > > OK, it's French-language press, and that's what I said, so I was wrong, alright ... BUT the "Jirinovski" in the story is out of Moscow, not France! And he's a Hussein apologist and general nut-job, what's more. So, it's not exactly the "French press" .... LeMonde, Figaro, and what I see of the Canandian press are certainly not digging for conspiracy theories to explain the mess; it's all too easy to explain without anything extra. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 9 19:50:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAA3naYh010665; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 19:49:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAA3nXe7010644; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 19:49:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 19:49:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <014801c5e5a9$b385eee0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <003601c5e3b8$a7dccc00$6401a8c0 NuDell> <4372B3CF.7080405@pobox.com> <012d01c5e5a5$d65d9930$6401a8c0@NuDell> <4372C0F2.3060300@pobox.com> Subject: Re: OT: The French Connection Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 19:49:06 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <3Ev0pC.A.QmC.MNscDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64360 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen, >> Even if this is not true, don't be surprised if the French >> start blaming US interests for the unrest. Pfui. The French-language press is doing no such thing. >> http://fr.news.yahoo.com/07112005/202/violences-urbaines-en-france-la-faute-la-cia-selon-jirinovski.html > OK, it's French-language press, and that's what I said, so I was > wrong, alright ... BUT the "Jirinovski" in the story is out of > Moscow, not France! He is a nut case, but that does not mean that he is incorrect on this - and the French - being more diplomatic than we are, will always use a surrogate first. I'm certain that he did not have to wait long for the French correspondent to show up to get his opinion. > So, it's not exactly the "French press" .... LeMonde, Figaro I predict the subject will be alluded to in an op-ed piece in Figaro very soon, maybe tomorrow. J. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 9 20:06:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAA45h0n019653; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 20:05:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAA45eYD019614; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 20:05:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 20:05:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: O.T. : Disclosure project ?? Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 15:05:13 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <000a01c5e5a1$09eb5440$45027841 xptower> In-Reply-To: <000a01c5e5a1$09eb5440$45027841 xptower> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta03ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.59.28] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Thu, 10 Nov 2005 04:05:13 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id jAA45KcG019430 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64361 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to RC Macaulay's message of Wed, 9 Nov 2005 20:47:05 -0600: Hi, [snip] >BlankWho is Dr. Steven Greer? Is he an advocate of free energy or just a UFO and conspiracy buff? > http://www.disclosureproject.org/ Both. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 9 20:42:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAA4gQUX005822; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 20:42:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAA4gOiE005803; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 20:42:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 20:42:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=JMfvFTVh6RROkjPOF2h+x2d4mUl29TbSWnrQql8clDOiNLbO3OHgm9IyYU6YoLkg; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:User-Agent:References:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Disposition:Message-Id:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT: The French Connection Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 23:58:19 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <003601c5e3b8$a7dccc00$6401a8c0 NuDell> <4372C0F2.3060300@pobox.com> <014801c5e5a9$b385eee0$6401a8c0@NuDell> In-Reply-To: <014801c5e5a9$b385eee0$6401a8c0 NuDell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200511092358.19691.rockcast earthlink.net> X-ELNK-Trace: 161777525297e62b1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79bd378ef35e9bdd4c5e9747e0e8814315350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 71.115.182.204 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64362 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Howdy again sports fans, Watch this surprising developement in France. The other shoe has not dropped yet. French right wing politician Jean Claude LePen of the National Front Party or some such has not spoken. That he has yielded the limelight in this to 'Wolfovitch' (his nickname in Russia) is surprising. Jean has never been at a loss for words before. His party has actually had members of the National Assembly..... elected. I suspect more will be elected now. The French may not associated these riots with our race riots of our American 1960's, but rather with a more at home French riot fest. The Communards of 1871 were one such series of events. These rioters took on the French Army and for three days it was touch and go. There were many casualties, especialy amongst the 'petroleuses furioses', fanatical harridans who often in their zeal to ensure maximum casualties amongst their victims succeeded admirably in immolating themselves with their own special 'cocktails'. Watch the next French elections. France may prove to be a volatile country, and if the common folk think their homeland is at risk, they will remember Charles Martel who stopped them at Tours so many centuries ago. All it took for the national socialists to rise to power in Germany was an ineffectual attack on the Reichstag....among other things. France seems to alternate between weakness and strength in 100 year cycles. About time for them to be strong again.....Alons enfant de la patria La Jour del Gloire est Arrive...... But then of course the heretofore apathetic Frenchman may just... go back to sleep. Standing Bear On Wednesday 09 November 2005 22:49, Jones Beene wrote: > Stephen, > > >> Even if this is not true, don't be surprised if the French > >> start blaming US interests for the unrest. > > Pfui. The French-language press is doing no such thing. > > >> http://fr.news.yahoo.com/07112005/202/violences-urbaines-en-france-la-fa > >>ute-la-cia-selon-jirinovski.html > > > > OK, it's French-language press, and that's what I said, so I was > > wrong, alright ... BUT the "Jirinovski" in the story is out of > > Moscow, not France! > > He is a nut case, but that does not mean that he is incorrect on > this - and the French - being more diplomatic than we are, will > always use a surrogate first. I'm certain that he did not have to > wait long for the French correspondent to show up to get his > opinion. > > > So, it's not exactly the "French press" .... LeMonde, Figaro > > I predict the subject will be alluded to in an op-ed piece in > Figaro very soon, maybe tomorrow. > > J. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 10 00:28:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAA8S0AB028067; Thu, 10 Nov 2005 00:28:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAA8Rvpw028026; Thu, 10 Nov 2005 00:27:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 00:27:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20051110082726142.22E2AC400085 mwinf3216.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20051110082727.00930958 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 08:27:27 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: OT: The French Connection Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64363 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:13 pm 08/11/2005 -0500, Standing Bear wrote: >We actually DID betray the French, in wartime, in Dien Bien Phu back >in the last century. The French were trying to hold onto their colony, >Viet-Nam, then called French Indo-China. Cute name for an ancient >country with a proud history of independance against Chinese aggression >for over a thousand years. They even beat Ghengis Khan three times >when they tried to invade them. The French thought they could do better. >It was said by a German politician that the French should have been able >to hold on to Viet-Nam as they 'had the best killers in Europe'. He was >referring to the inside joke among world politicians that the foreign legion, >heavily involved in the Viet-Nam campaign, was composed of very large >numbers of former Deutschen Schutzstaffeln on the run from the Nuremburg >Trials-----fugitive SS. Even Elie Wiesel looked the other way at the French >use of these. Elie probably hoped, and was later vindicated in this, that >southeast asia would become the graveyard of most of these psychopaths. >Point of fact the French were losing because the level of casualties even >among these people were becoming politically unacceptable to the French >citizenry. DeGaulle turned to 'Give 'em Hell Harry' Truman for help, and >ole' Harry came up with 'Operation Vulture' This was an Air Force plan to use >the big silver birds, B-36's and the new then secret B-47s to bomb Viet-Minh >army positions in the mountains around Dien Bien Phu in order to drive Mr. Ho >Chi Minh to the conference table. Sound familiar?! Well Mr. Ho and Gen Vo >(actually a cousin by marriage with my ex!!!!!! along with Madame Nhu) >stood pat knowing they had a winning hand if they could just hold the >People's Army together a little longer (not exactly a sure thing then). >Problem for the beleagured former SS men cowering in the valley of death >was that Truman did not run for re-election, preferring to go back to his >farm in Missouri. This left 'I Like Ike' Eisenhower to make the actual >decision to act on the warplan and gooood ole' smilin' >Ike, whose picture hung like an insipid dream over just about every civil >and uncivil servant's desk, decided to let the French hang out to dry. He >cancelled the plan and put out the disinformation that 'we knew nothing about >the plan' for public consumption. So Operation Vulture joined the UFO >presence in the government's world of blissful non-existance. This incensed >the French general staff, and one Gen DeGaulle in particular who saw it as >a personal betrayal by a former comrade in arms, Ike. That betrayal >rankles in French politics and colors its opinions and actions to this day. > >Standing Bear A very interesting history lesson, Standing Bear - Thanks. 8-) Frank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 10 00:46:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAA8jiMN000319; Thu, 10 Nov 2005 00:45:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAA8jgUX000302; Thu, 10 Nov 2005 00:45:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 00:45:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20051110084520772.BC6FDB000084 mwinf3213.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20051110084522.009c25c8 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 08:45:22 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: OT: The French Connection Resent-Message-ID: <7jM3JB.A.6_H.2iwcDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64364 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:15 pm 09/11/2005 -0500, Stephen wrote: > Now, perhaps, you see the wisdom of the Pope's > proscription of birth >control among Catholics... Yes, indeed! If all Catholics followed Grimer's example, the Muslims wouldn't stand a chance. Frank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 10 01:59:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAA9wRa6021218; Thu, 10 Nov 2005 01:58:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAA9wP53021184; Thu, 10 Nov 2005 01:58:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 01:58:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20051110095800443.6C3D09000086 mwinf3207.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20051110095802.009bfaa8 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 09:58:02 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: iss Then why would you need "a hell of a bumper bar"? Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64365 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:44 pm 08/11/2005 -0500, Standing Bear wrote: >Already have a 'bumper bar' in the form of some 'new' 'old' physics. >That is 'Davis mechanics'. The Army even makes practical use of >it for its tank gunnery. A hard shell can penetrate because of the >high 'onset of acceleration' of the struck material when the shell hits. >This is due according to Davis Mechanics to the real world behavior >of the force equation commonly known as [F]= m[A] when the [] implies >vectors. Now neglecting some calling 'm' as a kind of vector product >of Higgs Force interaction, I propose that under Davis Mechanics the force >equation would look something like this: > > [F] = m { (d[v]/dt) + (((d^2)[v]/d(t^2))^1) +...(((d^n)[v]/d(t^n))^(n-1))} > >which is a garden variety Taylor series. This quantifies the kinds of >phenomena witnessed in the real world such as straws driven through >creosoted hardwood utility poles and the use of the various nail guns >used in the construction industry. Impact loads in my engineering >curriculum were always taught as one of 'science's great mysteries' >like the coefficient of gyration of non circular cross sections which I solved >for one of my profs with an involved multidimensional multivarying calculus >based exercise. > >Standing Bear That's rather interesting because it relates to the discussion Jones and I had on the relevance of jerk and jounce, etc. The difference is that in the [F] equation, half of the terms are missing, "L" series = (dL/dt),(d^2)L/d(t^2), ........(d^n)L/d(t^n)) Your post reminds me of an as yet unformed idea which views a material as having a dynamic onion type structure where each successive term in the series enables penetration to successive layers of the onion. The boundaries between each layer are standing waves in a dynamic aether (cf. the structure of the atom). What is jerk at one level is acceleration at another, velocity at another and displacement at another. The datum for motion changes as one goes down the various levels in the structure. The beauty of hierarchical ideas is that one only has to get the transition from one level to another clearly understood and one can "zip up" all the other terms. Mmm.....fascinating. I'll have to give this some thought. 8-) 'Science's great mysteries' are what one should be trying to solve. Cheers, Frank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 10 06:51:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAAEoW2o025224; Thu, 10 Nov 2005 06:50:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAAEoRoT025185; Thu, 10 Nov 2005 06:50:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 06:50:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <4enjqj$1ku343a mxip19a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.97,313,1125892800"; d="scan'208"; a="1776390250:sNHT1128949176" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: OrionWorks Organization: OrionWorks To: CC: Subject: RE: O.T. : Disclosure project ?? Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 8:49:51 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64366 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: RC Macaulay > Who is Dr. Steven Greer? Is he an advocate of free energy > or just a UFO and conspiracy buff? > http://www.disclosureproject.org/ Richard As best as I can tell, he is both. Re UFOS: I believe Dr. Greer claims to have an impressive list of authorities in respected positions who will state for the record that they have personally seen alien (extraterrestrial) craft. I'm not 100% sure of this but I also believe Dr. Greer claims to have what he believes is authentic testimonial from respected individuals to claimed to have been in contact with some of these alleged extraterrestrials. RE Free Energy: A couple of years ago Dr. Greer claimed to have witnessed a "free energy" device and went on the talk shows to hype up his discovery. The claim was that his organization was only months away from making a major public announcement of monumental proportions. Unfortunately, the "inventor" suddenly stopped cooperating in so far as taking the necessary legal steps to ensure that Dr. Greer's organization, SEAS, (http://www.seaspower.com/) could manage the development and commercialization of the device. All sorts of excuses apparently were given including international interference as to who laid claim to the device. The result: So far - no banana. IMHO, there appear to be a lot of empty banana peels laying on the floor. Perhaps the organization is on to something. Perhaps not. While I believe Dr. Greer to be sincere in his convictions it is advisable to step gingerly! Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 10 08:12:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAAGBFGb014262; Thu, 10 Nov 2005 08:11:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAAGBCo4014228; Thu, 10 Nov 2005 08:11:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 08:11:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051110103922.0465cb80 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 11:10:45 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: ISS OT In-Reply-To: <43726E20.3040708 iinet.net.au> References: <200511031348.29717.rockcast earthlink.net> <436C62B0.3040207 iinet.net.au> <200511071252.01236.rockcast earthlink.net> <43726E20.3040708 iinet.net.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64367 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Wesley Bruce wrote: >We can't rule out a collapse of communism in China or a shattering of the >peoples republic, both would be messy, very messy. Not necessarily. The collapse of communism in Russia and Eastern Europe was calm and orderly, with practically no casualties. Of course Russia still has a long way to go before it achieves Western European standards, but it is improving and it is far better than it was under communism. I expect that China will gradually evolve away from communism, until the government is overthrown in a "velvet revolution." Doomsday scenarios seldom come true, because most people are sane, and they want to live in peace. In the 1950s, many people assumed that the US and the Soviet Union would eventually launch a nuclear Armageddon, but it never happened. It turned out we could live with them and they could live with us. I am 110% confident that we can reach the same kind of accommodation with China and also with Muslim nations such as Saudi Arabia. See Kennedy's speech at American University, June 1963: http://usa.usembassy.de/etexts/speeches/rhetoric/jfkuniv.htm QUOTE "Some say that it is useless to speak of world peace or world law or world disarmament - and that it will be useless until the leaders of the Soviet Union adopt a more enlightened attitude. I hope they do. I believe we can help them do it. But I also believe that we must reexamine our own attitude - as individuals and as a Nation - for our attitude is as essential as theirs. . . . First: Let us examine our attitude toward peace itself. Too many of us think it is impossible. Too many think it unreal. But that is a dangerous, defeatist belief. It leads to the conclusion that war is inevitable - that mankind is doomed - that we are gripped by forces we cannot control. We need not accept that view. Our problems are manmade - therefore, they can be solved by man. And man can be as big as he wants. No problem of human destiny is beyond human beings. Man's reason and spirit have often solved the seemingly unsolvable - and we believe they can do it again." Remember that! If you have any doubts, look around and see what we have accomplished already. Read history, and try to realize how difficult it was to build civilization. You will see that our present problems are small in comparison. Also, the notion that France is going to be taken over by Muslim civilization is nonsense. No trend lasts forever. If anything, over the next few hundred years I expect Western values and science will permeate Muslim nations even more than it has already, despite their opposition. Science and democracy, which are two sides of the same coin, are the most powerful ideas in human history. They outweigh even religion, nationalism, capitalism and communism. I think they will continue to move mountains and change civilizations for many centuries to come. Long after capitalism has been replaced by a system in which we will produce all the goods we want for free, and people do no work, and long after nation states have withered away and international borders no longer exist, science will still be progressing. Today's news offers hope. Science and rationality have triumphed in Dover, PA: "All eight members of the Pennsylvania school board that had been sued for introducing the teaching of intelligent design as an alternative to evolution in biology class were swept out of office Tuesday by a slate of challengers who campaigned against the intelligent-design policy." - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 10 12:34:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAAKXJJ5015911; Thu, 10 Nov 2005 12:33:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAAKXGpn015847; Thu, 10 Nov 2005 12:33:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 12:33:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: ISS OT Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 07:32:36 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <200511031348.29717.rockcast@earthlink.net> <436C62B0.3040207@iinet.net.au> <200511071252.01236.rockcast@earthlink.net> <43726E20.3040708@iinet.net.au> <6.2.1.2.2.20051110103922.0465cb80@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20051110103922.0465cb80 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.59.28] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Thu, 10 Nov 2005 20:32:36 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id jAAKWk8W015339 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64368 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Thu, 10 Nov 2005 11:10:45 -0500: Hi, [snip] >"All eight members of the Pennsylvania school board that had been sued for >introducing the teaching of intelligent design as an alternative to >evolution in biology class were swept out of office Tuesday by a slate of >challengers who campaigned against the intelligent-design policy." [snip] ...and both sides of the argument are wrong. :) Intelligent intervention does not preclude evolution, nor the other way around. Evolution is certain, intelligent intervention probable. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 10 17:01:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAB10jq9005923; Thu, 10 Nov 2005 17:01:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAB10b0d005801; Thu, 10 Nov 2005 17:00:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 17:00:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <0fb201c5e65b$3d9bcbc0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: What is an ARFO ? Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 16:59:59 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0FAF_01C5E618.2F0FB7D0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64369 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0FAF_01C5E618.2F0FB7D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What is an ARFO ? ...the escaped pet space-dog from a UFO? Not exactly. An ARFO is an Autonomous Remote Flying Object, but it looks (in my = mental image) like a propeller-powered "glider" on steroids. =20 It is being designed (in the gray lab) to fly for a very long time, but = does not have even enough power to take off. It is designed to remotely = fly at very high altitude - over the jet stream, but still in the = atmosphere, and not in orbit.=20 Its purpose is to fly in tight-circles continuous over one spot on earth = (preferably mid ocean), using computer control, for as long as decades, = non-stop - as a high-altitude platform with many uses, military and = non-military. It can hold a smaller Hubble-type telescope, or relay = communications or broadcast TV over a whole hemisphere and for far less = cost - less than a thousandth of the cost and 10 times the utility of = comparative satellites. It has very long wings and large ungainly propellers that only work in = thin air, and it is powered by radioactive material, so-called reactor = waste.=20 It only has a few hundred horsepower, so it needs to be towed by another = airplane up to modest altitude, with its oversized props folded away - = before it can even be started-up, and from there on, it can only travel = at about 75 MPH, relative to earth after deducting the headwind, but it = can do this for decades, or until the mechanical parts of the engine = wear out. =20 How does it work? Unlike the expensive Amtec-powered satellites which use radioactive Pu = and thermoelectric converters, or the more expensive SP-100 fission = space-reactor, this plane uses only "free" material for power- the = so-called "waste," from reactors, and it uses about 500 pounds of this = material, solely for its substantial gamma emission - for use in the = continuing thermo-radiolysis of steam - and the continuous onboard = production of hydrogen.. Huh, that is nowhere to be found on Google. Yes. this is true... as this diamond-in-the-rough concept airplane is = now only a Jules of the imagination (as in Verne) perhaps a too-active = imagination, but think about this: You probably know something about = radiolysis, and thermolysis, and SOFC (solid oxide fuel cells) and = vortex tubes and adiabatics, but have you ever thought that these could = all be combined? The aim is that steam could be partly decomposed, and = continuously be recirculated in a two layered vortex tube configuration, = where the split-off hydrogen is removed, and the remainder of = oxy-enriched steam recycled - and recombined without normal heat = rejection, so that most of the gamma energy of the fuel is converted to = electricity.=20 Get this:... the walls of the vortex tube converters ARE the ceramic = oxygen membrane of the SOFCs...and hydrogen comes off from the inner = vortex reverse-flow-config when the steam is irradiated, and then is = pumped back to the other side of the SOFC wall to give the current flow = need to power the plane - get it? More later. Jules NuVerne =20 aerospace designer and resident court jester ------=_NextPart_000_0FAF_01C5E618.2F0FB7D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
What is an ARFO ?

...the escaped pet space-dog from a UFO? Not exactly.

An ARFO is an Autonomous Remote Flying Object, but it looks (in = my=20 mental image) like a propeller-powered "glider" on steroids.
 
It is being designed (in the gray lab) to fly for a very = long=20 time, but does not have even enough power to take off. It is designed to = remotely fly at very high altitude - over the jet stream, but still in = the=20 atmosphere, and not in orbit.

Its purpose is to fly in tight-circles continuous over one spot = on=20 earth (preferably mid ocean), using computer control, for as long as = decades,=20 non-stop - as a high-altitude platform with many uses, military and=20 non-military. It can hold a smaller Hubble-type = telescope, or relay=20 communications or broadcast TV over a whole hemisphere and for far = less=20 cost - less than a thousandth of the cost and 10 times the utility of=20 comparative satellites.

It has very long wings and large ungainly propellers that only = work in=20 thin air, and it is powered by radioactive material, so-called reactor = waste.=20
 
It only has a few hundred horsepower, so it needs to be towed by = another=20 airplane up to modest altitude, with its oversized props = folded away=20 - before it can even be started-up, and from there on, it = can=20 only travel at about 75 MPH, relative to earth after deducting the = headwind, but=20 it can do this for decades, or until the mechanical parts of the engine = wear=20 out.
 
How does it work?

Unlike the expensive Amtec-powered satellites which use = radioactive Pu=20 and thermoelectric converters, or the more expensive  SP-100 = fission=20 space-reactor, this plane uses only "free" material for power- the = so-called=20 "waste," from reactors, and it uses about 500 pounds of this = material,=20 solely for its substantial gamma emission - for use in the = continuing=20 thermo-radiolysis of steam - and the continuous onboard production of=20 hydrogen..

Huh, that is nowhere to be found on Google.

Yes. this is true... as this diamond-in-the-rough concept = airplane=20 is now only a Jules of the imagination (as in Verne) perhaps a = too-active=20 imagination, but think about this: You probably know something about = radiolysis,=20 and thermolysis, and SOFC (solid oxide fuel cells) and vortex tubes = and=20 adiabatics, but have you ever thought that these could all be combined? = The aim=20 is that steam could be partly decomposed, and continuously be = recirculated in a=20 two layered vortex tube configuration, where the split-off hydrogen is = removed,=20 and the remainder of oxy-enriched steam recycled - and = recombined without=20 normal heat rejection, so that most of the gamma energy of the fuel is = converted=20 to electricity.
 
Get this:... the walls of the vortex tube converters ARE the = ceramic oxygen=20 membrane of the SOFCs...and hydrogen comes off from the inner vortex=20 reverse-flow-config when the steam is irradiated, and then is = pumped back=20 to the other side of the SOFC wall to give the current flow need to = power the=20 plane - get it?
 
More later.
 
Jules NuVerne 
    aerospace designer and resident court=20 jester
------=_NextPart_000_0FAF_01C5E618.2F0FB7D0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 10 18:06:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAB26Iak024966; Thu, 10 Nov 2005 18:06:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAB26F3f024932; Thu, 10 Nov 2005 18:06:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 18:06:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <3AB2240B6206D911B21500508B6D8E307A930B caraupermb01.carrier-apac.com.au> From: John.Rudiger carrier.utc.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: OT - Is Hell Exothermic or Endothermic? Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 10:03:29 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64370 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The following is supposedly an actual question given on a University of Washington chemistry mid-term. The answer by one student was so 'profound' that the professor shared it with colleagues, via the Internet, which is, of course, why we now have the pleasure of enjoying it as well! Bonus Question: Is Hell exothermic (gives off heat) or endothermic (absorbs heat)? Most of the students wrote proofs of their beliefs using Boyle's Law (gas cools when it expands and heats when it is compressed) or some variant. One student, however, wrote the following: First, we need to know how the mass of Hell is changing in time. So we need to know the rate at which souls are moving into Hell and the rate at which they are leaving. I think that we can safely assume that once a soul gets to Hell, it will not leave. Therefore, no souls are leaving. As for how many souls are entering Hell, let's look at the different Religions that exist in the world today. Most of these religions state that if you are not a member of their religion, you will go to Hell. Since there is more than one of these religions and since people do not belong to more than one religion, we can project that all souls go to Hell. With birth and death rates as they are, we can expect the number of souls in Hell to increase exponentially. Now, we look at the rate of change of the volume in Hell because Boyle's Law states that in order for the temperature and pressure in Hell to stay the same, the volume of Hell has to expand proportionately as souls are added. This gives two possibilities: 1. If Hell is expanding at a slower rate than the rate at which souls enter Hell, then the temperature and pressure in Hell will increase until all Hell breaks loose. 2. If Hell is expanding at a rate faster than the increase of souls in Hell, then the temperature and pressure will drop until Hell freezes over. So which is it? If we accept the postulate given to me by Teresa during my Freshman year that, "it will be a cold day in Hell before I sleep with you", and take into account the fact that I slept with her last night, then number 2 must be true, and thus I am sure that Hell is exothermic and has already frozen over. The corollary of this theory is that since Hell has frozen over, it follows that it is not accepting any more souls and is therefore, extinct... leaving only Heaven thereby proving the existence of a divine being which explains why, last night, Teresa kept shouting "Oh my God." THIS STUDENT RECEIVED THE ONLY "A" From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 10 18:26:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAB2Q5wt002140; Thu, 10 Nov 2005 18:26:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAB2Q3rc002089; Thu, 10 Nov 2005 18:26:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 18:26:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Anti-gravity patent (new) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 13:25:38 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta02ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.59.28] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Fri, 11 Nov 2005 02:25:37 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id jAB2PhMK001911 Resent-Message-ID: <8PTr4.A.Xg.5EAdDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64371 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi, Check this out http://164.195.100.11/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=6,960,975.WKU.&OS=PN/6,960,975&RS=PN/6,960,975 Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 10 18:47:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAB2jP2h009743; Thu, 10 Nov 2005 18:45:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAB2jCAq009662; Thu, 10 Nov 2005 18:45:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 18:45:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <000c01c5e669$d5205e30$4a037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: <0fb201c5e65b$3d9bcbc0$6401a8c0 NuDell> Subject: Re: What is an ARFO ? Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 20:44:25 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0009_01C5E637.89A3A480" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.8 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,HTML_30_40, HTML_MESSAGE,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64372 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C5E637.89A3A480 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jones, Right out of a Burt Rutran project. Would make a good low altitude = satellite for faster internet upload wireless devices. Richard ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Jones Beene=20 To: vortex=20 Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2005 6:59 PM Subject: What is an ARFO ? What is an ARFO ? ...the escaped pet space-dog from a UFO? Not exactly. An ARFO is an Autonomous Remote Flying Object, but it looks (in my = mental image) like a propeller-powered "glider" on steroids. It is being designed (in the gray lab) to fly for a very long time, = but does not have even enough power to take off. It is designed to = remotely fly at very high altitude - over the jet stream, but still in = the atmosphere, and not in orbit.=20 Its purpose is to fly in tight-circles continuous over one spot on = earth (preferably mid ocean), using computer control, for as long as = decades, non-stop - as a high-altitude platform with many uses, military = and non-military. It can hold a smaller Hubble-type telescope, or relay = communications or broadcast TV over a whole hemisphere and for far less = cost - less than a thousandth of the cost and 10 times the utility of = comparative satellites. It has very long wings and large ungainly propellers that only work in = thin air, and it is powered by radioactive material, so-called reactor = waste.=20 It only has a few hundred horsepower, so it needs to be towed by = another airplane up to modest altitude, with its oversized props folded = away - before it can even be started-up, and from there on, it can only = travel at about 75 MPH, relative to earth after deducting the headwind, = but it can do this for decades, or until the mechanical parts of the = engine wear out. How does it work? Unlike the expensive Amtec-powered satellites which use radioactive Pu = and thermoelectric converters, or the more expensive SP-100 fission = space-reactor, this plane uses only "free" material for power- the = so-called "waste," from reactors, and it uses about 500 pounds of this = material, solely for its substantial gamma emission - for use in the = continuing thermo-radiolysis of steam - and the continuous onboard = production of hydrogen.. Huh, that is nowhere to be found on Google. Yes. this is true... as this diamond-in-the-rough concept airplane is = now only a Jules of the imagination (as in Verne) perhaps a too-active = imagination, but think about this: You probably know something about = radiolysis, and thermolysis, and SOFC (solid oxide fuel cells) and = vortex tubes and adiabatics, but have you ever thought that these could = all be combined? The aim is that steam could be partly decomposed, and = continuously be recirculated in a two layered vortex tube configuration, = where the split-off hydrogen is removed, and the remainder of = oxy-enriched steam recycled - and recombined without normal heat = rejection, so that most of the gamma energy of the fuel is converted to = electricity.=20 Get this:... the walls of the vortex tube converters ARE the ceramic = oxygen membrane of the SOFCs...and hydrogen comes off from the inner = vortex reverse-flow-config when the steam is irradiated, and then is = pumped back to the other side of the SOFC wall to give the current flow = need to power the plane - get it? More later. Jules NuVerne =20 aerospace designer and resident court jester ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C5E637.89A3A480 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jones,
Right out of a Burt Rutran project. = Would make a=20 good low altitude satellite for faster internet upload wireless=20 devices.
 
Richard
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Jones Beene=20
To: vortex
Sent: Thursday, November 10, = 2005 6:59=20 PM
Subject: What is an ARFO = ?

What is an ARFO ?

...the escaped pet space-dog from a UFO? Not exactly.

An ARFO is an Autonomous Remote Flying Object, but it looks = (in my=20 mental image) like a propeller-powered "glider" on steroids.

It is being designed (in the gray lab) to fly for a very long = time,=20 but does not have even enough power to take off. It is designed to = remotely=20 fly at very high altitude - over the jet stream, but still in the = atmosphere,=20 and not in orbit.

Its purpose is to fly in tight-circles continuous over one = spot on=20 earth (preferably mid ocean), using computer control, for as long as = decades,=20 non-stop - as a high-altitude platform with many uses, military and=20 non-military. It can hold a smaller Hubble-type = telescope, or relay=20 communications or broadcast TV over a whole hemisphere and for = far less=20 cost - less than a thousandth of the cost and 10 times the utility of=20 comparative satellites.

It has very long wings and large ungainly propellers that = only work=20 in thin air, and it is powered by radioactive material, so-called = reactor=20 waste.
 
It only has a few hundred horsepower, so it needs to be towed by = another=20 airplane up to modest altitude, with its oversized props = folded away=20 - before it can even be started-up, and from there on, = it can=20 only travel at about 75 MPH, relative to earth after deducting the = headwind,=20 but it can do this for decades, or until the mechanical parts of the = engine=20 wear out.

How does it work?

Unlike the expensive Amtec-powered satellites which use = radioactive=20 Pu and thermoelectric converters, or the more expensive  SP-100 = fission=20 space-reactor, this plane uses only "free" material for power- the = so-called=20 "waste," from reactors, and it uses about 500 pounds of this = material,=20 solely for its substantial gamma emission - for use in the = continuing=20 thermo-radiolysis of steam - and the continuous onboard production of=20 hydrogen..

Huh, that is nowhere to be found on Google.

Yes. this is true... as this = diamond-in-the-rough concept=20 airplane is now only a Jules of the imagination (as in Verne) = perhaps a=20 too-active imagination, but think about this: You probably know = something=20 about radiolysis, and thermolysis, and SOFC (solid oxide fuel = cells) and=20 vortex tubes and adiabatics, but have you ever thought that these = could all be=20 combined? The aim is that steam could be partly decomposed, and = continuously=20 be recirculated in a two layered vortex tube configuration, where the=20 split-off hydrogen is removed, and the remainder of oxy-enriched steam = recycled - and recombined without normal heat rejection, so that = most of=20 the gamma energy of the fuel is converted to electricity.
 
Get this:... the walls of the vortex tube converters ARE the = ceramic=20 oxygen membrane of the SOFCs...and hydrogen comes off from the inner = vortex=20 reverse-flow-config when the steam is irradiated, and then is = pumped back=20 to the other side of the SOFC wall to give the current flow need to = power the=20 plane - get it?
 
More later.
 
Jules NuVerne 
    aerospace designer and resident court=20 jester
------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C5E637.89A3A480-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 10 19:17:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAB3GlJB027397; Thu, 10 Nov 2005 19:17:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAB3GhUf027351; Thu, 10 Nov 2005 19:16:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 19:16:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: "Hoyt A. Stearns jr." To: Subject: Diamagetism Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 20:16:22 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2670 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64373 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A month ago someone on Vortex posted about an inorganic salt that was more diamagnetic than bismuth. I can't find any reference, please resend it. Thanks Hoyt Stearns Scottsdale, Arizona http://members.cox.net/hoyt-stearns http://www.turbotip.webhop.net Shouldn't we face reality? Sometimes people say,"Well, shouldn't I face reality?" We say, no, NEVER DO THAT!!!! Never face reality unless it is perfect in every way. Calendar-Hicks-pg 537. ***************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Churchill's Commentary on Man: Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Everything in excess. To get the full flavor of life, take big bites. Moderation is for monks. --Robert A. Heinlein ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Sacred cows make the best hamburger. -- Mark Twain ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- When you come to a fork in the road, take it. -- Yogi Berra ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- "We experience what we believe. If we don't believe that we experience what we believe, then we don't, which still means the first statement is true." --Harry Palmer ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- ======================================================================= 'Behold the turtle. He makes progress only when he sticks his neck out.' --James Bryant Conant. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 10 19:48:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAB3lfW3008898; Thu, 10 Nov 2005 19:47:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAB3lcOp008868; Thu, 10 Nov 2005 19:47:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 19:47:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <4hfa12$1j8r0hj mxip15a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.99,115,1131339600"; d="scan'208"; a="1720549939:sNHT16449788" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: OrionWorks Organization: OrionWorks To: Subject: Re: OT - Is Hell Exothermic or Endothermic? Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 21:47:14 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64374 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: John.Rudiger ... > > THIS STUDENT RECEIVED THE ONLY "A" > Thanks for that, John! Made my day! Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 10 20:35:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAB4YJI3024530; Thu, 10 Nov 2005 20:34:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAB4YI5t024523; Thu, 10 Nov 2005 20:34:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 20:34:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: ThomasClark123 aol.com Message-ID: <20d.e15f1ab.30a5792d aol.com> Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 23:33:49 EST Subject: Re: Electrostatic Hover Cars To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1131683629" X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5039 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: <4onE_D.A.D_F.J9BdDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64375 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -------------------------------1131683629 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/7/2005 11:24:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, johnsteck tetrahelix.com writes: I find these posts highly entertaining mostly because they remind me of the consultant gobbledygook generator... http://www.plainenglish.co.uk/generator.html Thanks for the above link. The gobbledygook generator has many potentials, that if improved with a little bit of Artificial Intelligence and expertise built in, could prove to outwit if not entertain Arthur C. Clarks computer called Hal as depicted in his book A space oddesy: 2010. Baron Von Volsung, http://www.rhfweb.com/baron, Email: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html President Thomas D. Clark, Email: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html, Personal Web Page: http://www.rhfweb.com/personal New Age Production's Inc., http://www.rhfweb.com/newage Star Haven Community Services, at http://www.rhfweb.com/sh Radiation Health Foundation Trust at http://www.rhfweb.com/ Making a difference one person at a time Get informed. Inform others. -------------------------------1131683629 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In a message dated 11/7/2005 11:24:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, johnste= ck tetrahelix.com writes:
I fi= nd these posts highly entertaining mostly because they remind me of the cons= ultant gobbledygook generator...  http://www.plainenglish.co.uk/generator.html=
Thanks for the above link.  The gobbledygook generator has many po= tentials, that if improved with a little bit of Artificial Intelligence and=20= expertise built in, could prove to outwit if not entertain Arthur C. Clarks=20= computer called Hal as depicted in his book A space oddesy: 2010.
 
Baron Von Volsung, http://www.rhfweb.com/baron, Email: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html
President Thomas D. Clark,= Email: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html,
Pers= onal Web Page: http://www.rhfweb.com/personal
New Age Productio= n's Inc., http://www.rhfweb.com/newage
Star Haven Community Service= s, at = http://www.rhfweb.com/sh
Radiation Health Foundation Trust at http://www.rhfweb= .com/

Making a difference one person at a time
Get informed= . Inform others.
-------------------------------1131683629-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 10 20:37:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAB4a7g6025250; Thu, 10 Nov 2005 20:36:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAB4a4JT025211; Thu, 10 Nov 2005 20:36:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 20:36:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: ThomasClark123 aol.com Message-ID: <13d.202f6406.30a57985 aol.com> Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 23:35:17 EST Subject: Re: OT:Electrostatic Hover Cars To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1131683717" X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5039 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64376 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -------------------------------1131683717 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/8/2005 9:18:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, orionworks charter.net writes: To reinterpret a famous saying: Grant me serenity over the probabilities that I can't change, the courage to change the probabilities that I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Good comments, Baron. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com I hope that the forces in the universe of probabilities and knowledge grants us all what you ask for in your above saying. May the force be with you as Luke Skywalker would say. I appreciate your criticism. You caused to me consider why I had give up science for mythology so easily, so as to confuse the two as you suggest. I then realized that I had given up my faith in science in part, when science seemed to fail us and I did not have time to wait for science to succeed, and I needed answers and instant access to forces that seemed to tap into the root forces of the universe, where no formal understanding is needed. While at the same time I had also given up my faith in God, and myth in part, to discover sciences that could save us all, that few to this day dare speak about in any formal mathematical way, such as the science of law, constitutional theory, and social theory for space age split second societies. I have written a very fine paper on constitutional history and the proposed formal science of constitutional theory that should be developed to show which forms of law and government can be modeled on computers to govern society peacefully and civilly over the ages as posted at http://www.rhfweb.com/usc.html. Some mathematician and engineer should refine the principles of law and government far further than I have considered them so that they can be formally modeled. Such a book on the science of law cannot be found in any law library to date, though it should be there by now, so that we could prove which laws and governments are the best at any moment in time for any type of society, and end some of the need for wasted debate, politics and warfare. The one thing I did read and save on my computer about Carl Sagan as posted at his own website was his Baloney Detection Kit which lists some basic logical rules to follow to discover warning signs that suggest deception and bad science. I was fortunate to have studied under a philosphy professor at MSU, named Professor Herbert Hendry, who wrote computer programs to teach logic and to test for flaws in logic which could be applied to read normal text in books and in papers to analyze thier logical flaws very quickly. Fifth Annual Computers and Philosophy Conference at Stanford ... Joseph Hanna and Herbert Hendry (Michigan State). Algorithmic Translation in Propositional Logic William Hanson (Minnesota) ... iacap.org/programs/1990-5thCAP.htm - 6k - Cached - Similar pages Baron Von Volsung, http://www.rhfweb.com/baron, Email: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html President Thomas D. Clark, Email: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html, Personal Web Page: http://www.rhfweb.com/personal New Age Production's Inc., http://www.rhfweb.com/newage Star Haven Community Services, at http://www.rhfweb.com/sh Radiation Health Foundation Trust at http://www.rhfweb.com/ Making a difference one person at a time Get informed. Inform others. -------------------------------1131683717 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In a message dated 11/8/2005 9:18:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, orionwor= ks charter.net writes:
To reinterpret a famous saying: Grant me seren= ity over the probabilities that I can't change, the courage to change the pr= obabilities that I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

Good c= omments, Baron.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.= com
I hope that the forces in the universe of probabilities and knowle= dge grants us all what you ask for in your above saying. May the force=20= be with you as Luke Skywalker would say.
 
I appreciate your criticism.  You caused to me consider why I= had give up science for mythology so easily, so as to confuse the two as yo= u suggest.  I then realized that I had given up my faith in science in=20= part, when science seemed to fail us and I did not have time to wait for sci= ence to succeed, and I needed answers and instant access to forces= that seemed to tap into the root forces of the universe, where no formal un= derstanding is needed.   While at the same time I had also given u= p my faith in God, and myth in part, to discover sciences that could save us= all, that few to this day dare speak about in any formal mathematical way,=20= such as the science of law, constitutional theory, and social theory fo= r space age split second societies. 
 
I have written a very fine paper on constitutional history and the prop= osed formal science of constitutional theory that should be developed to sho= w which forms of law and government can be modeled on computers to govern so= ciety peacefully and civilly over the ages as posted at http://www.rhf= web.com/usc.html.  Some mathematician and engineer should refine th= e principles of law and government far further than I have considered them s= o that they can be formally modeled.  Such a book on the science of&nbs= p;law cannot be found in any law library to date, though it should be there=20= by now, so that we could prove which laws and governments are the best&= nbsp;at any moment in time for any type of society, and end some of the= need for wasted debate, politics and warfare.
 
The one thing I did read and save on my computer about Carl Sagan as po= sted at his own website was his Baloney Detection Kit which lists some=20= basic logical rules to follow to discover warning signs that suggest decepti= on and bad science.  I was fortunate to have studied under a philosphy=20= professor at MSU, named Professor Herbert Hendry, who wrote comput= er programs to teach logic and to test for flaws in logic which could b= e applied to read normal text in books and in papers to analyze thier logica= l flaws very quickly.
 
Fifth Annual Computers and Philosophy Conferen= ce at Stanford ...
Joseph Hanna and = Herbert Hendry (Michigan State). Algorithmic Translation in
Pr= opositional Logic William Hanson (Minnesota) ...
iacap.org/programs/1990-5thCAP.htm - 6k -= Cached - Similar pages<= /FONT>
 
Baron Von Volsung, http://www.rhfweb.com/baron, Email: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html
President Thomas D. Clark,= Email: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html,
Pers= onal Web Page: http://www.rhfweb.com/personal
New Age Productio= n's Inc., http://www.rhfweb.com/newage
Star Haven Community Service= s, at = http://www.rhfweb.com/sh
Radiation Health Foundation Trust at http://www.rhfweb= .com/

Making a difference one person at a time
Get informed= . Inform others.
 
 
-------------------------------1131683717-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 10 20:45:01 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAB4iAOT028257; Thu, 10 Nov 2005 20:44:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAB4i50x028217; Thu, 10 Nov 2005 20:44:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 20:44:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: ThomasClark123 aol.com Message-ID: <217.ddab62e.30a57b7c aol.com> Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 23:43:40 EST Subject: Re: OT - Is Hell Exothermic or Endothermic? To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1131684220" X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5039 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64377 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -------------------------------1131684220 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Who needs to use logic to argue about hell when the CIA has already promised in an email sent to me to end hell on Earth once and for all and make all of the caves in the underworld safe enough for a baby to crawl through. -------------------------------1131684220 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Who needs to use logic to argue about hell when the CIA has already pro= mised in an email sent to me to end hell on Earth once and for all and make=20= all of the caves in the underworld safe enough for a baby to crawl through.=20=
-------------------------------1131684220-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 10 21:37:01 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAB5aWWX014229; Thu, 10 Nov 2005 21:36:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAB5aU2R014161; Thu, 10 Nov 2005 21:36:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 21:36:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20051110213227.0285d910 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 21:32:43 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: NEW ENERGY TIMES (tm) NOV. 10, 2005 -- Issue #13 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="=====================_1834986406==.REL" Resent-Message-ID: <1z0opB.A.FdD.d3CdDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64378 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_1834986406==.REL Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_1834986421==.ALT" --=====================_1834986421==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed [] Your best source for cold fusion news and information. Nov. 10, 2005 -- Issue #13 ISSUE #13 is available online at http://newenergytimes.com/news/NET13.htm Our mission is to provide accurate and responsible news and analysis as well as educational programs to accelerate progress of new, sustainable and environmentally friendly energy sources. Our primary focus is the field of cold fusion, also known as condensed matter nuclear science. Our goal is clean energy, accessible and affordable for everyone. New Energy Times (tm) is a project of New Energy Institute Inc., an independent nonprofit public-benefit corporation which provides information and educational services. The New Energy Times (tm) newsletter, Web site, and documentary projects are made possible by the generous contributions of our sponsors and supporters. ---------- --=====================_1834986421==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
[]
Your best source for cold fusion news and information.
Nov. 10, 2005 -- Issue #13

 ISSUE #13 is available online at http://newenergytimes.com/news/NET13.htm
 

Our mission is to provide accurate and responsible news and analysis as well as educational programs to accelerate progress of new, sustainable and environmentally friendly energy sources. Our primary focus is the field of cold fusion, also known as condensed matter nuclear science. Our goal is clean energy, accessible and affordable for everyone.

New Energy Times (tm) is a project of New Energy Institute Inc., an independent nonprofit public-benefit corporation which provides information and educational services. 
 
The New Energy Times (tm) newsletter, Web site, and documentary projects are made possible by the generous contributions of our sponsors and supporters.
 
--=====================_1834986421==.ALT-- --=====================_1834986406==.REL Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="6d5faa7d.jpg" Content-ID: <6.2.0.14.2.20051110213227.0285d910 mail.newenergytimes.com.1> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline; filename="6d5faa7d.jpg" /9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQAAAQABAAD/2wBDAAEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEB AQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQH/2wBDAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEB AQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQH/wAARCABCAJsDASIA AhEBAxEB/8QAHwAAAQUBAQEBAQEAAAAAAAAAAAECAwQFBgcICQoL/8QAtRAAAgEDAwIEAwUFBAQA AAF9AQIDAAQRBRIhMUEGE1FhByJxFDKBkaEII0KxwRVS0fAkM2JyggkKFhcYGRolJicoKSo0NTY3 ODk6Q0RFRkdISUpTVFVWV1hZWmNkZWZnaGlqc3R1dnd4eXqDhIWGh4iJipKTlJWWl5iZmqKjpKWm p6ipqrKztLW2t7i5usLDxMXGx8jJytLT1NXW19jZ2uHi4+Tl5ufo6erx8vP09fb3+Pn6/8QAHwEA AwEBAQEBAQEBAQAAAAAAAAECAwQFBgcICQoL/8QAtREAAgECBAQDBAcFBAQAAQJ3AAECAxEEBSEx BhJBUQdhcRMiMoEIFEKRobHBCSMzUvAVYnLRChYkNOEl8RcYGRomJygpKjU2Nzg5OkNERUZHSElK U1RVVldYWVpjZGVmZ2hpanN0dXZ3eHl6goOEhYaHiImKkpOUlZaXmJmaoqOkpaanqKmqsrO0tba3 uLm6wsPExcbHyMnK0tPU1dbX2Nna4uPk5ebn6Onq8vP09fb3+Pn6/9oADAMBAAIRAxEAPwD+/iii igAoooouu4CYGMdv8eaYRgH5B0PcH/P5ilLFc/Jx7Y/pxn8a/O//AIKY/wDBQf4Y/wDBM/8AZO8c ftN/E3Qr7xdNptxZeD/hp8NdI1nTtH1z4p/FjxGL9/DXgDTdR1WN10nTzpumav4u8Ua7Ho2uyeGv h54W8Y+KYvDviCXRItA1ooYetiatPC4WLdSpOFKmkvelOcklFbK7k1/TB2s7tJdW9kurfl3N79uT /goL+yz/AME7PhDe/GT9p/4jWnhXTJrXWm8D+B9LWPU/ih8V9d0ezBPg74Z+Co5YbrxLq09xf6Vp suqTS6T4Y8PJqmm614v8SeHfDhk1uL+H/wDbF/4O3P20/jVq/inwh+wf8F/C/wCzd8PbVdQe0+IX jGx074xfHiXSPD2v6nqcfjNtO1eN/g74A/tjwiulL4h8E614D+LqeHtb/tmOD4ka7H5Bi/FTxZrv 7Y//AAWh/bQ1H4mfFbxYnib4u+N7dr6z0y38P69deBvhR8GvDWoap/Z3h/4T+Gsa7pOj/DrwXqeq ajofh7R5NfJ8RfEHVnl8T+JfEfxM8d+IvHuv6U3/AATg/be8Ka/4M+A3w9j8Y6hq/wAebzxdY6L4 Is9F8d+CdB8a2vgbw/qvijTbzUr/AMTaXoPgzWBrPhmy1DW/D7PrT6F4dW9j1/xN4g8ORmTW1/v7 w/8Aov8ADfDuVR4g8Wa+OhmSpRrvJPrFKm4U3ZwnLL5OMlDlT5qs+VK05JJRsvyniHxM4Zy/PMHw rPO8opZ5mGDlUyvK60mnmFJc2ClVas2qajCaT0TUUknKyOluv+Ckf/BVf9ob4oy618XP+Cin7U/w 9im0vRde1aTwR8Wdd+Cnhj+x9Tv9MXT/APhGvhr8KtY+FPgyXVG0rVF1oaNoegLr7+H9M1rxHtdN COPVfgd/wUb/AOCt/wALfjx4v8K/Dj/goj+0WtppE/inSm8RfH3xjffGzw5Pa+HdXTT5l03wZ+0k vj3R9M1jfJYKdI0LQl8RAMUKsMhfp7Uv+CKnxC+EP7NPhDxb8Q/CvhTw58atNbR/iT4u+LnxE+Kf j3wjpvh+JpdSj8E+CPBh8LPqulrpGi6VoGgP4kHjPwFofxA0LxLqeqqvj7QfCujAw/k98WNP+Nnh zWLD4JWnhr4oan8RP7VssJp2leO28X6/rqyIdRk/4Rsarrmmapqj6j4dsB/a2i/2z/bx0xZH1yQ7 VT+r/DrgL6P+cZNjMDW4YyFxwMnBRrrKsyhXU3GMpf2nUVpJRUuaMXK8VNLnvaX5FDxfo8U8T5hl HCXE9PEVMvTymWWYJ06eXYeriqeDc+IsugqkpY7L3hasKV6qwKxk3XqYaOIjaa/qa/Zt/wCDrX4u /BjxZY/Cn/goZ8C9G+JeiWx0+1vfjl+z5YXvgvxpplsmg3zpqOv/AAp8cyR+DfHup61rSWh1/VvB 3jj4TeH9B0aTVZfDfhrxA2jLbz/2S/s3ftQ/AL9rv4TaF8bP2cPil4Q+L3w21tFgg1/wjevMthqL 6dp+qy+H/Eml6jFpuu+EPFelafq1hJ4g8GeMdF0LxR4fkv4U8Q6DpEj+SP8AKo+D/wDwSz+O3xC8 FePviT+0mvin9k3wf4XtfDNv4f8AFf7RnhHUvh5pPiPUNSvLBG0/TdS+IB8E/wBqak+kjUH0HRNE Mu86Y58RNbLo+gprsP7A/wC3N+0p/wAEjf2gbX4/fAfVLf4j/B7xbrI8G/FjwBJeahpPwt/aC8Ge GtR1A32ms506XVvAnj/QfM1PV/hz40bQW1/wBrOpamJvDniP4b+I/Evhnx5+A+MX0ZPDXix53jfC CWWZBxblcZ1f9X8vzzL80yXPYqK51lVWc5LK8ycWuTAKSoc6VOWDpuU6sP1LhHxDwf1t8M5nmscy zjLsLTWa5rTo1YRU5RSUY4/kWXSbam3gIzePppXa2b/18kGByCD0Pp9B2I/z0xSrt5wa+c/2Wf2j fhT+1v8AAP4W/tF/BPX7fxJ8Mviz4UtPFHh+9tZbP7VZNJu03VNB19LCSVdK8WeD9Y07U/CHirQ1 nMmgeJdJ1jQLjM2kvs+ilGGPpj+eDiv80cVha2CxeJweMpyhjcDUqUqtOrFwq06kJSpzpzj9mcZ0 5QmtbNNI/YuiaaaaTTTummlJNd000ySiiipTTS8/+B/mvvEFFFFMAooooAiBCcD7uOvr78/TGM4F BbJx/Ccf5/A1+AF//wAF3/hr4W/4LQ+J/wDgkJ8Tfg9J4AMEng7w98Pf2l7v4veHF8O+LPiX46+C ngT42eGvAniL4deJvCHg1fC3/CYReI9S+G/hPU9F8d+P9d8TfEdvBvhvQvDCy+Pmn8NeGeJ/+Diw +G/h1/wWZ8dn9j77T/w6P+PPwm+CKaYf2gTbn4/D4m/tQePf2am8VjUG+Caj4WjRf+EJbxpFo2Pi GutJqi+HTr2jeQdem3p5ZmDpKtHCNYJYWFRSbj8MsesujJe826bqtU1opOWtuVcxl7ajq29d729N Nt7Xe6Vlof04sq5OM5IA6njoeufT8skmgE4Yc4A/mf8A6/I9MDpX85Pgj/gsH/wUa1/9kP4p/tse LP8AgjS/gn4F+E/2TNN/a5+G3iQf8FFPgd4oHxb8F6hqPw08TahYjStO+Gi+L/Aa6T+z14n+I3x6 aTW/Dra3Ifhb/wAKxj8NxeLvG/h9U88+IX/BzF+zz4Q0P/gkx4q0fwL4C1zQf+CjqW0/xdvPEf7Q lp8Oh+xFoenfE/wB8IvHXjDx1pvif4VLqXjHwH4M+IF58atBtvHWtxfCDwJ45X9nXxn4h8K+IpfD UkuuaLp/YmZe9KjhZSUcT/Z8pQcZRjj8VepGLlGUopuOGm1bSVpqPwu79tSejs9Va6t2u1pezsk3 6dWf07bwzEBCSeg6cj+nf1z6Hmv8vP8A4On/ANu69/aR/wCCiI+Dvg7X4m+Gv7DlnffC7wpLo2oa fO1x8ddXHhvxP8afGun6hpej6L4g0vVND1hPBHwbl0XWtb8QaH4f8QfB3WvEPhvyZ/Eeviv7jP2c f+Cpy/tI/wDBUf8AbE/4J4+CPgd/avw4/Y78CaNq/i79rzwt8S/+E18Daj8VdRj+Gkd58Edf8NaP 8PxofgHxvpOt+JvixoLaTrPxY1nxE+ufAr4jwHwxHLoevx+Gf48v+CvP/BIj/gnV8E/26fjV4v8A 2wP+CyUX7N3xD/ad8cfFP9rjRPhVB/wTt+NvxYbw94M+OPxf+JuoaRHJ43+FnxF1rRNU/sXWdL8S aIX1K20LXddm8OS+IJNB0Jdciz9d4f1sNkmeyxuZ4Kpj8dTyTHZhlWVxp1Mxaq1FFwzFxy+PNTeW xqLMYupaNN4RKVm7vmxy9tQXsX7vMovre+jVm0nzPRR6/n8a/wDBIb9qr9nf/gn/AK38fvjx+0d4 s8Z+LtX8WeCPBvg34Paf4Xsm1zxD4h8Marr/AIo8SfEi10+TUdYXwihTxTp3grWv+Jv4hQgLrBi/ t+ZmZv0L8cf8HUHjDTrjxJ4l/Z7/AGfPBGj/AA+0mTwx4Gln8e/EKwtfjq0njjw/rGoHxJ4K8Pf2 ZrujyaToeqeG9UE2sv4D+IHhvw/Lqfw5/wCEujEvjrQfD5/NP9qr/g33/aT+Dn/BMj9nH/gpD8Iv iB/w0v8ADnx78Bfh1+0L8c/htoXw3fwT46/Z28B/Fr4Z+CPiVJr1iP8AhLPG0nxk+Hngh9U1CL4j a/pCeBv+EAh06L4lL8Pj4Ql+Imv/AA4+pf8AiFvCf8FQh/wTVT9uPJ/4YIt/25B8Zv8AhmdwAF/a HPwAPwxPw6/4aEJIdx/wl3/CZf8ACdhgpHh4+Gc/8T4/tWJ8TuHM1n9Y4jx/+sOKm8fLlzZ5t9dn l0eVU8uqOF4PG6U43knBU4pJtKx+L4/wS4cz7jCHHGfRq5lxBgsEspyqtCU8sjlOU4HH47H5fGMc ucHKonjpuVXnvUle6tZnwpqH/BeH9qrw7+1Z4n/aF0nxLoP7Qdu8XiKy8A6L+0F8PLHQrTwvZ+Jb rSdTe2Xw/wDC3xhoOrINFfTG0XQLdfHmteHodB1XV/EKeHdF8S69J5XL/Ez/AIOHP+CqHjq31i10 X452Xwm0HX7S1sZ9A+F3w9+G3h4aflYxqFzpXiXUvCmtfEfSzqpsQ748dbifuuYtgrL8SfsC/wDB OPxl8Tf2UPgv+x1/wVpg/ap+I/7SX7WXwL/Zv13wwf2C/jZ8Ck+GHgb4v+I5fDOofGh9a+JnjHTN C8dv4J1a98O6OfhzFrui674iHiZGh8RaRFocxH6Sv/wbj/sPSftxj/gmz/w+kI/bVx5P/Clh/wAE 5fi8cj/hUX/DQB/4uL/wvH/hUI/4tUP+Ey58c8qP+EeP/FR/8SI5Zn4i5NisLh8RVqYCMp5eqOWZ RDKsVPLsrpU+dqOBnjMunUlGLlUccfJvFucpWeGw8tPdw3hH4eYPF4TGUuDMgxeY4LApf2tHJMLH MGly2lj8bGlHFY9q1ubGRWLacklq7/zY/GH9pz9oz9oa7tda+Nvxt+JnxavbKSRNPvfiL418ReM/ 7Fs2YX1/YaW3iTVdaOm6aDfh20nSiiE87cjaaF58bfEeo/Czw38H7G5ttN8IeFNX1HxNDplqL+2G p+J9VYrqvjHUCWYPqzaOnh7Q/MAOzQPC+jqoWQa9Jr37zfC7/ggZ8Crv4Gf8FBP2j/2kP+CjY/Zs +Cf7AP7eXxm/Yh8beNx+yD4s+MB8SP8ADLxh8NPAnhv4mnw54C+LsfivRm8ceLPinoGkjwVpOieO T4bUie48TyQl7jReC1z/AIJSf8EsYNI/Za8YeBf+C+HwB8W+BP2i/jynwS8Q6vqn7OqeAfHPwK0S 58DfGTUNP+KHxT+Cviz9oiL4u+FfAOq/Fb4deCvhlceMPib4e+HvgTwx4e+KGi/E3xL48X4cJFNr /fgvF3LcknhvqWauGMWCVKq3RzXHRSSUrZVenBYHHe8ryjzw+KKk5KSPtKPD2XqisJRyrLI4Pm9p CMYxwLjPAxtzuz0k8Uk4NrmfLHla0v8Asn/wZ0ftweIrfxn8dP2BfGOv/avDOtaHf/tD/CGzvr3T oF8N+I9JvvDPhj4q+HNNj1Bv7a1JvG2m+IfDPjbQdE0ZW0HQ18D/ABI8SLEkmva3O/8AfwmFAOMd SRknPYdiB+Nf54H/AAS4/wCCDn7XH7E//BWjx7478d/tE6T8Bfgt+w98X/gdb+Bf2ifEvwj8Q2Hg P9t20/aVv9P8D+Gvg/8ACxvikmhfDaPWPHPw/wDGniH4LfEbVdA8d/EXxP8ABj9oHx94N+HXwxi+ IHiXWdG8e239BH/BWj/gth+1Z/wSq8R6t4q8Wf8ABMZfid+yhP4+8G/DH4Y/tQL+2f4B8Fr8SfGv ib4Yv8S9W0A/BPTPhN4/+JPhE6FJ4a+I/h/+19dDaHrS+B31+K4iGv6FoTfiPiBmGVcV8URzDIJU 75lhoe0UksueOxGAp0o1cco5jKNpVYKnVnFSTlUnOUoc07v2MMq1ChFV1olbe65Vsrq90tYrTaKs 7WP6OMntx1wODj1yT09s0DqNoxn6E+/X+vvjrX85HxK/4LX/ALVf7OnxL/4J7fBz9rr/AIJiL+zp 8S/2/P2t9c/Zx0Tw4f20fh38V28BeB9K179mHwxp3xrXVPhj8J9e0LxZJrGtfH/xNpK/DWbWvA2v Qj4Y7m14p450d9D2f+CQP/BwR8DP+Co3hb9pC+8d+BvD/wCx/wCM/wBmfQYPiX4v8PeNvjj4R8V+ HNQ+BR0+8PiL4t2PjTVdG+E+sadonws1bTdT0j4z6trHgm38B/D+HxJ8NNem+IVw3jiTRfD/AMR/ ZeM9liq1O9SOC0qSpzwVSMfewsLqcHKMoc+Lw0G4tpOUdk7nR7al1svKzd72dnq3qtba7vqf0Rbl 9f50blPGevHev5KvhX/wdIeFvjR+yX/wUs/bA8E/sWa/b+B/2BNd/Zig8H+F/FPx4sNM8Q/Gnwv+ 0t8b/Evwl8Oa/wCJDpfwm8QaR8G9Z8I6R4f07xj4h8JaK/xkgGs6lJ4Wj8TAaP8A8JFc/a/wG/4K vfty/EX9mD4yftkfGr/glOfgD+zf4O/YP+IH7b3wc+Izftz/AAi+LcnxwPh3wDovxO+Hvwsi8F+F Ph5D41+Hv/C0fh5f6vr6+NNe0GU+FZNLGg+IPDTa9q0UFN4CuviUl70Y6yivekou2rV2lOL0vo0T 7Sn2/wDJUf0AUV/MR+zD/wAFov8Agqn+2J8FPBP7Rn7OH/BChPiT8FfiG3iVvCHjmP8A4Kgfs4+F f7aXwv4u8R+CPEGzw549+E/g3xdph0nxT4b8QaSqa1o2jNItgZY2kSZGb+iT4U+KPHPin4XfDbxP 8S/h7N8J/iN4k8AeDdf8ffCxvE0HxFPw18aaz4d03UfFHgA/EDwxB/wjvjg+Dtcub7w7/wAJdogX S/Ef9nf2xZIkF4iLFTB1cLJwquPMpcrXPCTi0+VqShKXK0903fo0mmlbnbpo9U7uzW91dH8f/wC1 t/wb5/E7/goh/wAFjP8AgpF8Vv2ivAuu/Dv9lf42fs1/D+H9lj9qHwt44+Hmq6t4S/aV8EfDP9k7 wRpmo6j8ItP+IcHjHxPo8cXgv4teEPE2geOtB0HQde8OJra+GfE3grxXrfw++IejfF3wS/4Ic/8A BWnwL/wT7/4LsfAT4wfCxPij+0N+1949/Ykv/g941T48fDHxH/w0xrXwh/aw8bfEr40/FA+NvHnx B0LW9KOt6Tqa+NzrHxwHw/8AiD4iXVWdvDh8UCTQE/0ICcE+hJBHrhRj+dAOSPQEAD0ypz/Kt451 jFgllfP/ALI8LTy5Rd3yxp1IZguVtvlvUhFyStFttON25M9nonps3stdbPXvZ28t/I/kP/4I0f8A BKZ/hMvjn4U/tPf8EXR+ycPif+wT4q/Zi+P37Vjf8FGP+F7N+0qPHDfDHw58WvBn/Ck/h98Rdab4 M/8AC610zxF8S117wRrkY+Hv/CNDwx4a8QaK2vRvJ8F/8E4/+DW34p+HP2ef+CnPgb9u74OfAfV/ jl8RvAd98Ef2EPHOpfEzxDrui+EPGXhy08VeIbD9oTTX8AQzTeB/h340+IenfBKXw9rGtaBH8fU+ H/gj4lfDzxd8OfDXhPx7r/gT4g/3wnqcHI9MDv6d8/Q845GKCTknJIIAwce2Dn8j+YrfEcRZhia+ JrTlNSlRott1cfKTnRtZt16tRtWi4uKlKhGMnGCh0I0qUEk+XVNa23emyW7vtZXa3u3f+av/AINp P+CV3xe/4Jq/ssfFq+/ai+HehfDr9pz9ob4srrfiLRNC+IaeN9Q0P4NfDbRP+Ea+FHhDxQPCuua7 8NrLWNK8U+I/i341iPgfWPEYk8OfEfwsnivxJJ4j0UeF/Anzp/wUg/4K4fBuX9p3xT4E+Bf/AAcB /wDDv9/g1HrfwY+K/wACh/wSo8Y/tWuvxr+GXj/xzpPxD8VL8SPFnw9VdjEaZ4NbRdBk1rwyP+EG HiLw9rs48RTyH+tvcgJjHGQD0DDkHHPHoMgcDIBr/NW/4L/fsQeJv2XP+Cqvir4x/DvRvCGk/D79 tDSj8XdEbxVofh5/h5b+NI28N6R8bbHUR4rl8QDVvFUvxDXTfij4iOkaEdFVfijoYkVZBJEP1Dwh yvI/EbxKweUcX46rlaz5TVKtlayu0Ze6pwjHNsvzHApf2fGcMCuRSWM+rKE4tpnj57j/AOycnxmN oxTeAScouXK2vdveWy1erbst3dXZ6d8Tf+DivTf2UPgt/wAELo/2E/ivL8Z7/wDZo/ZBtvgl/wAF BP2YNX0H4m+B/Bficr8I/wBk7w3p/hLUPEPi3wZpGgyePvD3ijwL8S1+Gvxl+GJ8dN8PdbsdUW4X xH8N/HPinwD8RPv7/h+R/wAEux/wXpP7aB/aZmH7No/4JGn9mE/EX/hSn7Q//Jcf+Gy/+Fn/APCJ DwafhIvjgRf8IJ/xNf8AhMD4bHgrzAdCPiI6/jRz/LT8M9Z0T9iP9rK68TftO/DLxP4v0ZNKtNX+ G/w90f8AaH8WfCq8tdK1/wAV6Pq/h6/X4jfC34dj+0DoeleHb3SF0dW+Eeg6B4+bSNfbQtCfwU/h wfW3xR/4KBf8Eufhf8UtT1b9hL9hXxt4n8ReKNA8TeG76/8A2ivEXwv+JHg608aahp2p6VpnxK8N aV8Vvh5+0V4x1T+xdV1Ea2f7W+LPgDw94jGV+I/w5k2aI2gfuPE/0ZuHOHK+Bi824gzF5nLM/ZVI f6rJc1OVNexqSjn9THUZWnFLG1MqTmozlTy+pGM+X8+XiLmOJw2HxmScNrP8JjMu9tgKmXZrCnTl jMI5XwM5VlDCQjJpctZzdOTclKUPZr2n1D+09/wUh8NeKPih/wAE6PFfxW/4L23H/BRb4Z/An/gp l+yR8fviD8K/+HWV9+yVD8MPBnww8SeIdQ8W/HdfiF4U8BjWPHJ8G6K+peFx8MNCTWdc8RDxq2u6 LoesT+HYEr9I/EX/AAcn/svfHX9rv9tv9kH4wfHH4yaD/wAE7/jH4b8I6l+yv+3L+y3YfHD4I/H3 9nXxF4d+A/wz1X4g6Z9g8EeE9D+O+p+Gv+F0eHPGuueHdefwJ4h1fRvETap4U+Jnhn4p/sxeOZT8 JuZ/4Z0/4Juj4y/s3fFX46fs7674M+IL3PhP4PaH4b+H2g/BHwL4H1y98Sa9qOneIPi38efBvwF1 HQ/7UXwbpviTUdZbxivgL4THXdB8NH/hIPDEvhzRNCTQfFv2q/iR/wAEKPhrrfw88Q/EX9jT4za5 8J/Gfg++0vwl4u+F3gpfhf8ADb4s+BtLv9T1TTdV1i18OfFP4U/FfUviYTIi2+ueNPBmieJZ9D8S afH8TNdtxBDo2ifO4jwM4bw2ZYTK8ZDjeVSOMx+X8uV5VluPppylN4ejSzOKo4LMcwnOODpfvYZb FSxUoKdTDx1/M8F9JrLM1nDDZNw3Vx2OlnuZcLYnLVmmUwq080yt4vF4nB5ZTeY82bqlgsBj6lst 9pKUYaxhiMTR5flT9lX9qT/gm94g/wCCUX/BS7/gm1+1N/wU38QeEPGf7S//AAUQ8ZfFjwr+1T4n /Zd/ac+MPiz4w+AfDnjH9mHxnoPx88S+DdL0vU9Y07xR8bdV+C2vy674Q8dfFAfEDw5rXiCfXfEX 9szNF/b+1/wXV/4Kg/suftZf8EnP2dv2W/Cf/BQZ/wDgoP8AtZ/Dz9rnRvih8Sviov7JPxD/AGUz 4t8CL4O/aY07TPELeB9W+HOgfDfQ/wDhDtM+Inw/+G39k+H/ABHNrniB9O/4SiW3DS6+tvT+L/8A wb9/Bv4nfAP4g/tXfsB/FKH4+fDjxrffEbxZ8M/D3hxtR0nSvgt4D0Fj4l8O+EfGOo+P9bfxh4r8 V6v4UuJdH17V9a0XQJfDfiLTdJjm8OvD4hTxBoP8+vxw/Yj1X4G/BD4QfGbXPiv8O9Xn+L0cl9H8 MNOvrGb4ieFLQeIPG2mwax4i8PMw1YaVrOleDtP13QdZGjHRJdD8UaOud5zJhhPBjK+IazXDWJrV PqVfC0s0yqq8tynOcpzlYGvLA0bZpleWSjGChNZlTweOeCxOLhXtjcXJYOT/AF6h4kcL1K2BwLxq hmWY4hSy3Dyc3PHWxWLwlXBTpqM5LGYJ4O7wrd8Lyt4qCbs/6af2Xf8Agoh8Pf2y/wBiH/g3d/Ye 0r4ka58Xv24v2bf+Co/7Jfiv4mfCXQPg349tb7wT+zX+zf4++PHhjwfr114l0f4c6H8M9V0f4Yfs +P8ACa48Ra5oniDXPEMegabq/in4iyyS6L4/123/AKE/+Dlz9hP9qn/goR+wf8JPg3+yN8MP+Fuf Efw1+1p4G+J+s+GT4w+G3gE2Xgrw/wDCP48+GdU106l8UPFngnRHCa3408OaSdJt9dOuGLUo5AjW 0WtNX8+X/Bon+wXrni/9oz4n/t2ePfD9s3g74HeFLn4Z/CK+uLVHa++LHxO07TNT8Q+IfD2o6VrC SaVqngr4MXyaJr2j61oP/E90D466TKGVUmLf6IQ4J2kfMuQMdsDdx9PcZwa/GvEPIMBwBxHlGS5d jP7QxWU06ONzh5rBWjnOPjha1bLIck2pUKMaFODUeV4mjiqsXqlJ/cYHE08whiK1rJtqyt8Noq+i s2rXbWi08z+cH/gsz+wj+1d+1n+3f/wRE+MvwD+Fsvj34a/scftbXnxM/aM8Rv42+G3hT/hXfguf 4tfsleK08QjTPGPizw7rPi1RpPwr8a6odK8CaH4k1sHRzC+hpJq+hwav+Ef7Cn/Bo54k+Mv7MGgw ft3Q+Ov2Of2kvCX7XWu6h4hHg/xR8MfjHb/Fz9j/AFHwH8KmPhLTz4V+IfjfwR4A8fL49sviR/wr 74nSvrniDw3/AGlrK/Ef4YfETw/J8PR4b/0INvcnI+nJHbJHJ7UhUHIXrxnOeOp/X8a+LweeZjgo ShgpvBubXM4bztLCztKztJXw11FqyaUt7NdvsqLVtNNbaNL4VfV+VvmfwN6N/wAEJf25PhZ+yd/w cOfs3fB79l59J8L/ALVPx1/ZMH7APg4/G74SXQ8b/Bj4H/tnfEvx2v8AxUPin4uazrHhn/hCPgnq PgzVc/GzXNB8T+IJGaGL+3vE6XK19af8Euv+CZnjv9nj4YftFeEfib/wQSj+FnxJ8T/8E0vix8Av H3xUH/BUfTPiCv7dHjbV9A8CaV4w+AB8FaT8Q9b0T9lv/hqPWPD1/r6/E3QXTQPgymlR6BF4jUNG j/2Y5Oc9iM478Lnj86QHByBwe2PRc8fieuPeorZ3i61LE0q0r/W5xk3zVIvmhGng4uXLPlndRjdz Um+Ztdb0qdu211otFre29tF0sf5zn7Tf/BEz45/E74JeNvAv7OP/AAbNt+y18ZtZg8Mt4I+PX/D5 Pwd8bj4DXTPFvhrVfEMZ+Gfjz4raF4Q8VjXPCeneIPBQbWdaWTQJPEn/AAkfh+SR9D0bd/cX+wJ8 M/HnwR/YT/Yr+DHxN0qfw18SfhH+yZ+zl8MviD4ci+0eII/D/jjwH8HvB3hbxZoa634c1nVdA1Ua Tr2lX9h9v0XUr7S7n7P5tjcy27RsftYbNuwjC4/z2/yO9P8ALT+6Kuvm+KxVOnSrSk405cycpSqy vaMbc9aVVqNlpGPLFSu0lzSRPLyap3b02S03Xw27bve+o+iiivMNQowPSiigCBlH1B6HvkV+Xn/B V3/gnF8Pf+CmP7KXiz4LeKIbLT/iR4bS78Y/Abx5NfX+i/8ACGfFGxsmGkpr+qaZDq+oy/D7xG2d C+IOjtoviDb4ev4/E/hrQf8AhZfg34feI/D36jgBlwM9eM9RSEHktz6YHJOOMHA+nPGarA47HZZi 8DmOX4t4HHZfONWlVhaXJKLjKLtdLRxT7NPlaaTTyq0o1U1LVNWd1v5tddPPToz/ADp/+Cb3wI8W /s8ftDaz8I/2idFvvjR48+C+gHw18Rfgl4o+CdjrPxD+Bvizx5eam2vCx+IWp6xrOs+KPCOr6V/a beH9VDL8I/iH4e8VaX8R/hm6eGvHfh7X/Hv6C+O/+CeHwI/aE+NUfi34Sfsq+Hvgp4p8RN4i0XxP pcl7pHh2yPh5bvSRp3iDw14LYzeFvDemy6UNN0PXtH8F+H30bRfEreLIh5k7p4g8Rf08/tQfsY/D b9p3TjrZ1fxN8IPjHp+l2Wi+FPj38MW0HS/iN4b0bTNTm1NNA1Rtb0TXvC/j3wJI+qa+j+BvHuge IvD0R8R6t4g8Lx+GfF40PxzoX8jP7cP/AATP/wCCznwW8Uya/wDD/TdG/bA+DMEOpav478X/AAg8 Q/2V8cPEXhrSb5NQ1TTdU+HHjwa74y8Naz4z0vUtU8G+G9B+CMvx+10aDE6eKfEMgGipX94+HvjJ wzx/nGUY3iLiWj4e8X5blcaFPN85WaVcnzfNpNKWYr6lOFLAKT5P9hx1TL4xk4wwzxVk6H+dfjn9 HTxvzvi6vmXh1xW6XDGeOLzqjRqxyTNoUoZnjswdKi8pyxQU5Rx7wCzHG0cwxk8L+8xyxjnNn0b4 H/4JU/ErRPEv9nfHeaw03xJaxR27eIdE1fQvGN23w68MadHpWn69qOpal8Q9F1c6PIL0R6DpureA /EPiAC+UeJY9CI0AL8w/twfsGfCLxR8LNb+HHxA/aAudb+HVrr58R+Ffixp/gbWtV0z4Y+OtU0TV NS8QaXpzad4rl8G6lJ/winhvS38RaPHr3gJ9dLeEMeHXXQdCLfkPPpX7Z/wNisvH1tq/7Wv7DWJ7 zxP4U8F/tEeCfDGh+E7bxTpZ8R6k1jpfgr4pat4H1XVl11dSfRvEer6J8JtaOv6B4m8ZeHPEXh3X fDGu+II5a3hbwL+1r+0L4Ng+H/xG/Zl+Mv7SPw28VePLnxL4x+PX7E2lfGDxBrOtRq3iTUvEK+IP DnhbwJ8V/hHpH9ralr+lReG9Gi+EnwlZtb8L6QkpEbv4iP6nxTwhxlPFcOcUYri7IONOH8veVe1z vKc5ynI8py2pguWOBePhUzXH/X54TMZx+oVJ1Kn1SpjfrTcVB4U/Jav0d89jxNh8Twvxdm/Dmf06 2U4hzx+ZV824vyTMqGOwePqTy2nUyzLuG8yh7Olj6ePoyjUlj8rkoVIpT9tOt/wRG+P3iP8AYl/4 KJeEvhxqWu+I/iF8DvinoPjPwvrmjeA5dG8VeHruDV0VtP8AiV4n0qPxdBpHgTSfDun+DbDWPiNr njF45PAXw+03WvEXiDQVQB193/as/Y+tf+Cn/wDwUr8HeFv2HfgFonhn4QeNPD/hrw39r8N+PPD9 xpHhTSvD3ifUdP8AiF8ZPiB4a8OeL9eXwB4U8H6S9l4Pt9D0OXw/4fjGk+DdB8L+Hte8T+INA8B+ IPr/APZo/wCDbj9qz9ovQvCPhL47eAdH/Za+C3gp7+38CeKPi58V/Fvxq/aCs/C/iK0h8b/8UR8K Phl4r8E/DfwLpGs+K9S8QDxF4R8aa/4d17w1rvijxfr8vgDW/ERfxBrv9qH7Gv7Df7Pn7C/w1034 cfAjwfDpMj6R4c0/xf431c2V949+It94dsDYaZrXjPX4tM0eLfGk2oHQvCOg6ToPw/8AAkWoyeHP hr4U8D+FUi0KD858RvEzwr4BzJ5xwnjlxPxjQyBZLl2Bp5pHNshw88a6nPjeJc2wNPL8uxmIjHEW o5ZldLMI08fSkq+IwUFhVP8AuTKOC+JM6zzKeJIpZVi8DS9hnOZZplWXRzLOKUlHnzDLFleZ1P7P x9ZQi6qqPCpqph+alKphPq9Pe/Y3/ZT+F/7FP7Onw1/Zt+Ddhcab4I+Gfhu00ewnvr2XUdY1fVjP LqniDxBq+ozrHv1jxFq9/qGtXcMKW2hwy6g8Hh/QtH8PQW2jQ/WiE7QQOecE4z1547/X0/GnMpwP ryR6k55Poen/AOumbiGLHIVQMAd/x/PPY89K/gXMcZjMyxuMzPHVJY3GY3FutVqTalLnm+aU5ynv JycpSk0rOySSVj+hcHh6WCwuGwlG75b6y1lJ2W929ddG2763bLFFIOQD6gUtYnUFFFFABRRRQAUU UUAFFFFABRRRSe3zj+aAKhb7x/z2ooqo7r1X5jW0vT9UZckUREeY4z/pOeUU87evI61ZSGFZYdsU a8fwxqO3sKKK9CfwL0kfP0v+RtiP8cf/AElGhgeg/IUiAYBwM889+poorzamy9af5xPchs/X9EOo oopldV6P84hRRRQMKKKKACiiigD/2Q== --=====================_1834986406==.REL-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 10 22:41:01 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAB6eUQu003539; Thu, 10 Nov 2005 22:40:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAB6eSGL003519; Thu, 10 Nov 2005 22:40:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 22:40:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Anti-gravity patent (new) X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 8324edccdbae1c0007349b58b3c30403 Reply-To: michael.foster excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20051111064007.DA253109EDF xprdmailfe1.nwk.excite.com> Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 01:40:07 -0500 (EST) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64379 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: And to think they're not allowing any cold fusion patents. M. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 10 22:47:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAB6l8CE005421; Thu, 10 Nov 2005 22:47:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAB6l6eD005396; Thu, 10 Nov 2005 22:47:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 22:47:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Anti-gravity patent (new) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 17:46:43 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20051111064007.DA253109EDF xprdmailfe1.nwk.excite.com> In-Reply-To: <20051111064007.DA253109EDF xprdmailfe1.nwk.excite.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta04ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.59.28] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Fri, 11 Nov 2005 06:46:43 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id jAB6kmja005262 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64380 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Michael Foster's message of Fri, 11 Nov 2005 01:40:07 -0500 (EST): Hi, [snip] > >And to think they're not allowing any cold >fusion patents. > That's because CF works. ;) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 10 23:10:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAB79eYE010931; Thu, 10 Nov 2005 23:09:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAB79dxl010908; Thu, 10 Nov 2005 23:09:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 23:09:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20051110230548.028f6ad8 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 23:06:03 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: OT - Is Hell Exothermic or Endothermic? In-Reply-To: <3AB2240B6206D911B21500508B6D8E307A930B caraupermb01.carrie r-apac.com.au> References: <3AB2240B6206D911B21500508B6D8E307A930B caraupermb01.carrier-apac.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <8QZqd.A.YqC.yOEdDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64381 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ROFL! Thanks :) s From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 11 00:24:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAB8OBAV000884; Fri, 11 Nov 2005 00:24:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAB8O9ck000871; Fri, 11 Nov 2005 00:24:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 00:24:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: temalloy mail.usfamily.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4fdvm1l8k6fuu59qba9a5upofejrpjbeu3 4ax.com> References: <20051107170214.72F413D0C xprdmailfe10.nwk.excite.com> <4fdvm1l8k6fuu59qba9a5upofejrpjbeu3 4ax.com> Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 02:23:40 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: OT: The French Connection Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id jAB8Nl1a000769 Resent-Message-ID: <41CCBD.A.aN.oUFdDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64382 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk replied >In reply to Michael Foster's message of Mon, 7 Nov 2005 12:02:14 >-0500 (EST): >Hi, >[snip] >> >>Jones wrote: >> >>> In particular, the situation with the Iraq war > >> betrayal and treachery was absolutely deplorable > > >Mais peut-être le mot juste est "justice". > >Note that the French didn't actually *betray* anyone over Iraq, Really, what about the Iraqi people? They got screwed over in numerous ways. The French had their fingers in the oil for food scandal. They were cutting lucrative deals with Sadam and happily burning the oil. > >A vote in the Security Council is democracy in action. Sometimes >it doesn't go your way. Get used to it. The UN is a debating society, and a rather ineffectual one at that. They screwed the Iraqi people even more than the French with oil for food, If I had my way, America would with draw it's membership and financial support from the UN. What kind of a fool would allow Sudan to chair the Human Rights Commission? >The real problem is that the US is all for majority rule, as long >as it is part of the majority, but when the shoe is on the other You conveniently ignore that Sadam had, and used WMD. The UN gave him orders to account for certain materials and he ignored them. We decided that the world would be better off with one less tin horn dictator, and IMHO it is. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 11 01:14:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAB9E2na025552; Fri, 11 Nov 2005 01:14:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAB9E1NW025526; Fri, 11 Nov 2005 01:14:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 01:14:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=cZtlDBvjxbz6Va3w9vbpWApA6iYZc9IGsq0DzzqNexlL8KNE3NXRMc3+tXyh8esm; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220051151181317810 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re; Kervran's Chickens, Neutrinos & Potassium -Calcium Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 02:13:17 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9404ddcba7d8ccff8c3972e0914cb3161a3350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.247 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64383 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Maybe those chickens don't have to run a fever. 19 K-39 (stable) + Neutrino ----> 20 Ca-39 (millisecond) ----> 19 K-39 (stable) 19 K-40 (1.26e9 yr) + Neutrino ----> 20 Ca-40 (stable) 19 K-41 (stable) + Neutrino ----> 20 Ca-41 (1.03e5 yr) ----) 19 K-41 (stable) This might also explain the strange Sodium/ Potassium ratio in sea water. Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Maybe those chickens don't have to run a fever.
 
19 K-39 (stable) + Neutrino ----> 20 Ca-39   (millisecond) ----> 19 K-39 (stable)
19 K-40 (1.26e9 yr) + Neutrino ----> 20 Ca-40 (stable)
19 K-41 (stable) + Neutrino ---->  20 Ca-41 (1.03e5 yr) ----) 19 K-41 (stable)
 
This might also explain the strange Sodium/ Potassium ratio in sea water.
 
Fred
 
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 11 01:58:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAB9wLDH009510; Fri, 11 Nov 2005 01:58:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAB9wJCd009488; Fri, 11 Nov 2005 01:58:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 01:58:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=RUOb7JUOeqgEftEdPiczClU1gGAR9c1oqBT+tSnpN04z3hlEWcRLsySe88w8eGxd; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220051151185735760 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Kervran's Chickens, Neutrinos & Potassium -Calcium Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 02:57:35 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9409168a910e1e3716c13cd482048402e5f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.150 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64384 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII I Posted earlier: > > 19 K-39 (stable) + Neutrino ----> 20 Ca-39 (millisecond) ----> 19 K-39 (stable) > 19 K-40 (1.26e9 yr) + Neutrino ----> 20 Ca-40 (stable) > 19 K-41 (stable) + Neutrino ----> 20 Ca-41 (1.03e5 yr) ----) 19 K-41 (stable) > > This might also explain the strange Sodium/ Potassium ratio in sea water. > Looking at the K-Ca-Sc-Ti "Neutrino Capture" cycle over geological time and comparing the crustal abundance to that of sea water, suggests that there might be a different "Neutrino Capture Cross Section" between "illuminated" matter as opposed to "Dark Matter" in rocks, etc. Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
I Posted earlier:
>
> 19 K-39 (stable) + Neutrino ----> 20 Ca-39   (millisecond) ----> 19 K-39 (stable)
> 19 K-40 (1.26e9 yr) + Neutrino ----> 20 Ca-40 (stable)
> 19 K-41 (stable) + Neutrino ---->  20 Ca-41 (1.03e5 yr) ----) 19 K-41 (stable)
>
> This might also explain the strange Sodium/ Potassium ratio in sea water.
>
Looking at the K-Ca-Sc-Ti "Neutrino Capture" cycle over geological time
and comparing the crustal abundance to that of  sea water, suggests that
there might be a different "Neutrino Capture Cross Section" between "illuminated"
matter as opposed to "Dark Matter" in rocks, etc.
 
Fred

 ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 11 02:48:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jABAloOx023105; Fri, 11 Nov 2005 02:48:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jABAlneA023094; Fri, 11 Nov 2005 02:47:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 02:47:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=UD7mHpOy0xzKZkYVrdtPwIC4eQJRR2ufOoS0WvfBQEJf0lpX/pgbiT8xwz60Yxvp; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220051151194658610 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Photon-Neutrino Interaction. Was Kervran's Chickens. Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 03:46:58 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940d9ac5075bcb03ace9b27679ffaec856c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.215 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64385 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII "Photon-neutrino reactions in the presence of strong magnetic field" M.V. Chistyakov* and N.V. Mikheev† Division of Theoretical Physics, Department of physics Yaroslavl State University Sovietskaya 14 150000 Yaroslavl Russian Federation Abstract: " The two-photon two-neutrino interaction induced by magnetic field is investigated. In particular, the process ??? ??? and ?????? are studied in the presence of strong magnetic field. An effective Lagrangian and partial amplitudes of the processes are presented. Neutrino emissivities due to the reactions ?????? and ?????? are calculated taking into account of the photon dispersion and large radiative corrections. A comparison of the results obtained with previous estimations and another inducing mechanisms of the process under consideration is made." What else do we need to know? Google wins. :-) Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

"Photon-neutrino reactions in the presence of strong magnetic field"

M.V. Chistyakov* and N.V. Mikheev†

Division of Theoretical Physics, Department of physics Yaroslavl State University Sovietskaya 14 150000 Yaroslavl Russian Federation

Abstract:

" The two-photon two-neutrino interaction induced by magnetic field is investigated. In particular, the process ??? ??? and ?????? are studied in the presence of strong magnetic field. An effective Lagrangian and partial amplitudes of the processes are presented. Neutrino emissivities due to the reactions ?????? and ?????? are calculated taking into account of the photon dispersion and large radiative corrections. A comparison of the results obtained with previous estimations and another inducing mechanisms of the process under consideration is made."

 
What else do we need to know?   Google wins.   :-)
 
Fred
 
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 11 03:25:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jABBOqJ5001655; Fri, 11 Nov 2005 03:25:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jABBOot0001640; Fri, 11 Nov 2005 03:24:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 03:24:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=hRk92ooxXfGS/BlfaIE4RQEG9oEvvxT7gumF6JZx0pU/pAyCcY34yEkDNM0NJ+xZ; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200511511102340240 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Photon-Neutrino Interaction. Was Kervran's Chickens. Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 04:23:40 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9404958113105f6f9ca24f113c4f40c5d4b350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.162 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64386 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Frank E. Reed was on the CompuServe Physics Forum in the Good Old Days. When he wasn't blasting "Cold Fusion" he was teaching good physics. http://www.clockwk.com/fer/ "I'm currently president of Centennia Software. I design and write software for our CENTENNIA historical atlas software. If you arrived here through some indirect route, you might want to learn a little about the Centennia Historical Atlas software. I am also head cartographer for the project --I decide what goes into the maps and did most of the drawing in the earliest versions of Centennia. But this current career is a long way from my training... By education and interest, I'm a physicist and astronomer. Too bad there's no money in that." Some of Frank's Physics: http://www.cabot-biz.com/photonics/hofsted.htm Neutrino Properties from a CompuServe posting by Frank Reed. " It now seems that a neutrino has no mass and this works just fine in the accepted current mainstream theories. Some properties of neutrinos in accord with currently accepted theory(1997): Zero mass (like photons) Spin 1/2 like electrons. Can't have two of them in the same state ("same place") at the same time. (like electrons, and very much Unlike photons) Does not interact electromagnetically so passes right through large quantities of matter as if it weren't there. (unlike electrons and photons, too) Has lepton number (Like electrons) In order to be consistent with Hofstadter's shell construct for mass, a neutrino must be some form of photon. It might be that a spin polarized photon could satisfy theoretical need to conserve energy and angular momentum in accord with the laws of nature. " But, do photons (infrared to x-rays-gammas) interact in matter? Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Frank E. Reed was on the CompuServe Physics Forum in the Good Old Days.
 
When he wasn't blasting "Cold Fusion" he was teaching good physics.
 
 
"I'm currently president of Centennia Software. I design and write software for our CENTENNIA historical atlas software. If you arrived here through some indirect route, you might want to learn a little about the Centennia Historical Atlas software. I am also head cartographer for the project --I decide what goes into the maps and did most of the drawing in the earliest versions of Centennia. But this current career is a long way from my training... By education and interest, I'm a physicist and astronomer. Too bad there's no money in that."
 
 
Some of Frank's Physics:
 

Neutrino Properties from a CompuServe posting by Frank Reed.

" It now seems that a neutrino has no mass and this works just fine in the accepted current mainstream theories. Some properties of neutrinos in accord with currently accepted theory(1997):

  1. Zero mass (like photons)
  2. Spin 1/2 like electrons.
  3. Can't have two of them in the same state ("same place") at the same time. (like electrons, and very much Unlike photons)
  4. Does not interact electromagnetically so passes right through large quantities of matter as if it weren't there. (unlike electrons and photons, too)
  5. Has lepton number (Like electrons)

In order to be consistent with Hofstadter's shell construct for mass, a neutrino must be some form of photon. It might be that a spin polarized photon could satisfy theoretical need to conserve energy and angular momentum in accord with the laws of nature. "

But, do photons (infrared to x-rays-gammas) interact in matter?

Fred

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 11 03:36:54 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jABBaIjw004653; Fri, 11 Nov 2005 03:36:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jABBaGph004627; Fri, 11 Nov 2005 03:36:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 03:36:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=RoJTmvtZYb3ADH/0KrluPYUrCGzIW+N2HzvGmSLQ+qQ3JdZU1muDpouGQ7ocs/yK; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200511511103529770 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Quarks and Current Loops. Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 04:35:29 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940b5c32ef2d870471ff7b965597a7f575d350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.162 Resent-Message-ID: <-1NsiC.A.PIB.wIIdDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64387 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII http://www.cabot-biz.com/photonics/hofsted.htm " Many great scientists of the past, including James Clerk Maxwell, H. A. Lorentz, H. Hertz, Erwin Schr??ger, and Albert Einstein thought that scientists would eventually show mass to be reducible to smaller and smaller constituents until they found a smallest-possible piece. Einstein said, "...most people [scientists] gradually came to believe that the final irreducible constituent of physical reality would be the electromagnetic field." There were very compelling reasons why most scientists believed this and these reasons have never been explained by other ideas. The most compelling reason was the phenomenon of relativity. H. Ziegler pointed out in a 1909 discussion with Einstein, Planck, and Stark that relativity would be a natural result if all of the most basic components of mass moved at the constant speed of light. If these scientists were right, Hofstadter's shells would be made of photons, and each shell would exist in its most simple state as just one sine-wave cycle of electromagnetic energy. Since such photon shells must complete their loops at the speed of light in one wavelength, and we know the mass of each shell, and their wavelength is determined by their energy content in accord with Einstein's mass-energy equation, we can calculate the diameter that each shell would be if it were a circle." That's the way the Current Loop-Disk theory see's it too. :-) Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
 
" Many great scientists of the past, including James Clerk Maxwell, H. A. Lorentz, H. Hertz, Erwin Schr??ger, and Albert Einstein thought that scientists would eventually show mass to be reducible to smaller and smaller constituents until they found a smallest-possible piece. Einstein said, "...most people [scientists] gradually came to believe that the final irreducible constituent of physical reality would be the electromagnetic field."

There were very compelling reasons why most scientists believed this and these reasons have never been explained by other ideas. The most compelling reason was the phenomenon of relativity. H. Ziegler pointed out in a 1909 discussion with Einstein, Planck, and Stark that relativity would be a natural result if all of the most basic components of mass moved at the constant speed of light.

If these scientists were right, Hofstadter's shells would be made of photons, and each shell would exist in its most simple state as just one sine-wave cycle of electromagnetic energy. Since such photon shells must complete their loops at the speed of light in one wavelength, and we know the mass of each shell, and their wavelength is determined by their energy content in accord with Einstein's mass-energy equation, we can calculate the diameter that each shell would be if it were a circle."

That's the way the Current Loop-Disk theory see's it too.   :-)

Fred
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 11 05:59:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jABDweUX009248; Fri, 11 Nov 2005 05:58:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jABDwcq8009159; Fri, 11 Nov 2005 05:58:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 05:58:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001401c5e6c7$f7cf3740$58037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: <3AB2240B6206D911B21500508B6D8E307A930B caraupermb01.carrier-apac.com.au> <6.2.0.14.2.20051110230548.028f6ad8@mail.newenergytimes.com> Subject: Re: OT - Is Hell Exothermic or Endothermic? Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 07:58:17 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.8 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64388 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Steven, The subject made the rounds of academia in one day according to an undergrad in engineering school at A&M. Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Krivit" To: Sent: Friday, November 11, 2005 1:06 AM Subject: Re: OT - Is Hell Exothermic or Endothermic? > ROFL! > > Thanks :) > > s > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 11 06:46:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jABEjhsb025990; Fri, 11 Nov 2005 06:45:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jABEjf2g025976; Fri, 11 Nov 2005 06:45:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 06:45:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002e01c5e6ce$89eed7b0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" References: <6.2.0.14.2.20051110213708.028f4e08 mail.newenergytimes.com> Subject: NEW ENERGY TIMES -- Issue #13 Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 06:45:19 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002B_01C5E68B.7B546BE0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <60iGZ.A.0VG.V6KdDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64389 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01C5E68B.7B546BE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable NEW ENERGY TIMES -- Issue #13 A most amazing pdf is mentioned here: http://www.arxiv.org/PS_cache/cond-mat/pdf/0505/0505026.pdf I say "amazing" - because it sounds almost exactly like the stimulus for = the "heavy electron" of Widom and Larsen has been mentioned here on = vortex many times earlier - and indeed could be related to the = hypothetical lepton triad, electronium (*e-), of Frederick Sparber, = instead of the muon, which for months Fred and myself have tossed around = like the proverbial hot potato. Not ot mention the fact that the "ultra low momentum neutrons" which can = induce "chains of nuclear reactions" sound a lot like the "energy = deficient neutron" which we have mentioned often here as being related = to an "n=3D1/137 hydino". The two idea are not incompatible.=20 This paper came out in May and this is the first time I have seen it... = honest... and if it is correct, well... let's just say it ties in nicely = with the idea of how electronium, or the hydrino/deuterino would operate = to produce cold fusion. ...hmm... sour cream or butter? Jones ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01C5E68B.7B546BE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

NEW ENERGY TIMES -- Issue #13

A most amazing pdf is = mentioned=20 here:
http= ://www.arxiv.org/PS_cache/cond-mat/pdf/0505/0505026.pdf
 
I say "amazing" - because it = sounds almost=20 exactly like the stimulus for the "heavy electron" of Widom and Larsen = has been=20 mentioned here on vortex many times earlier - and indeed could be = related=20 to the hypothetical lepton triad, electronium (*e-), of Frederick=20 Sparber, instead of the muon, which for months Fred and myself have = tossed=20 around like the proverbial hot potato.
 
Not ot mention the fact that the "ultra low momentum neutrons" which can induce "chains of = nuclear=20 reactions" sound a lot like the "energy deficient neutron" which we have = mentioned often here as being related to an "n=3D1/137 hydino". The two = idea are=20 not incompatible. 
 
This paper came out in May and this is = the first=20 time I have seen it... honest... and if it is correct, well... let's = just say it=20 ties in nicely with the idea of how electronium, or the=20 hydrino/deuterino would operate to produce cold = fusion.
 
...hmm... sour cream or = butter?
 
Jones
 
------=_NextPart_000_002B_01C5E68B.7B546BE0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 11 07:01:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jABF0vuR031388; Fri, 11 Nov 2005 07:01:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jABF0j8b031309; Fri, 11 Nov 2005 07:00:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 07:00:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051111095604.0464e040 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 09:59:55 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: What is an ARFO ? In-Reply-To: <0fb201c5e65b$3d9bcbc0$6401a8c0 NuDell> References: <0fb201c5e65b$3d9bcbc0$6401a8c0 NuDell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64390 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >Unlike the expensive Amtec-powered satellites which use radioactive Pu and >thermoelectric converters, or the more expensive SP-100 fission >space-reactor, this plane uses only "free" material for power- the >so-called "waste," from reactors, and it uses about 500 pounds of this >material, solely for its substantial gamma emission . . . Jones: Do you REALLY, seriously think it is a good idea to have 500 lbs of this stuff flapping around in the sky? What would happen if it crashed? What if a terrorist gets hold of it? NASA has built similar experimental solar powered high-altitude aircraft that use fuel cells at night. That approach seems a lot more promising to me. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 11 07:10:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jABFA2sD005079; Fri, 11 Nov 2005 07:10:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jABFA0jn005039; Fri, 11 Nov 2005 07:10:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 07:10:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <006101c5e6d1$0015a8e0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: Abstract of WO2004059662 Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 07:02:56 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_005E_01C5E68D.F1826900" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64391 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_005E_01C5E68D.F1826900 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This is totally bizarre, and alien to all of physics - but someone (who = has a "mit.edu" email address, if it is the same Christian Tahan) went = to the trouble and expense of filing this WPO application. He appears = to be a computer programmer, not a physicist... not there's anything = wrong with that. AZIZ CHRISTIAN TAHAN, 1765 Northshore Road, Suite 3, Revere, MA. 02151, = =20 Abstract of WO2004059662 A proton held aligned in a sufficiently strong magnetic field = maintaining the low energy state for the body can be decayed with cyclic = 2Hz radio waves to provide one of three types of energy: fusion, gravity = waves and anti-gravity, and particle-antiparticle annihilation. New = elements may also be formed as a result of the ability to rapidly decay = protons at room temperature. ------=_NextPart_000_005E_01C5E68D.F1826900 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This is totally bizarre, and alien to = all of=20 physics - but someone (who has a "mit.edu" email address, if it is the = same=20 Christian Tahan) went to the trouble and expense of filing this WPO=20 application.   He appears to be a computer programmer, = not a=20 physicist... not there's anything wrong with=20 that.
 
AZIZ CHRISTIAN TAHAN, 1765 Northshore = Road, Suite=20 3, Revere, MA. 02151,     


Abstract = of=20 WO2004059662

A proton held aligned in a sufficiently strong = magnetic=20 field maintaining the low energy state for the body can be decayed with = cyclic=20 2Hz radio waves to provide one of three types of energy: fusion, gravity = waves=20 and anti-gravity, and particle-antiparticle annihilation. New elements = may also=20 be formed as a result of the ability to rapidly decay protons at room=20 temperature.
------=_NextPart_000_005E_01C5E68D.F1826900-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 11 08:23:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jABGMXhM005768; Fri, 11 Nov 2005 08:22:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jABGMPSD005652; Fri, 11 Nov 2005 08:22:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 08:22:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20051111081825.028fc258 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 08:18:26 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: NEW ENERGY TIMES -- Issue #13 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_1873728562==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64393 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_1873728562==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Jones, From my view, your amazement is not without basis. My hunch is that in time, it will be seen that this "theory" will be shown to be related to the work of many,many people. :) Steve At 06:45 AM 11/11/2005, you wrote: >NEW ENERGY TIMES -- Issue #13 >A most amazing pdf is mentioned here: >http://www.arxiv.org/PS_cache/cond-mat/pdf/0505/0505026.pdf > >I say "amazing" - because it sounds almost exactly like the stimulus for >the "heavy electron" of Widom and Larsen has been mentioned here on vortex >many times earlier - and indeed could be related to the hypothetical >lepton triad, electronium (*e-), of Frederick Sparber, instead of the >muon, which for months Fred and myself have tossed around like the >proverbial hot potato. > >Not ot mention the fact that the "ultra low momentum neutrons" which can >induce "chains of nuclear reactions" sound a lot like the "energy >deficient neutron" which we have mentioned often here as being related to >an "n=1/137 hydino". The two idea are not incompatible. > >This paper came out in May and this is the first time I have seen it... >honest... and if it is correct, well... let's just say it ties in nicely >with the idea of how electronium, or the hydrino/deuterino would operate >to produce cold fusion. > >...hmm... sour cream or butter? > >Jones > --=====================_1873728562==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Jones,

From my view, your amazement is not without basis.

My hunch is that in time, it will be seen that this "theory" will be shown to be related to the work of many,many people.

:)

Steve
At 06:45 AM 11/11/2005, you wrote:

NEW ENERGY TIMES -- Issue #13
A most amazing pdf is mentioned here:
http://www.arxiv.org/PS_cache/cond-mat/pdf/0505/0505026.pdf
 
I say "amazing" - because it sounds almost exactly like the stimulus for the "heavy electron" of Widom and Larsen has been mentioned here on vortex many times earlier - and indeed could be related to the hypothetical lepton triad, electronium (*e-), of Frederick Sparber, instead of the muon, which for months Fred and myself have tossed around like the proverbial hot potato.
 
Not ot mention the fact that the "ultra low momentum neutrons" which can induce "chains of nuclear reactions" sound a lot like the "energy deficient neutron" which we have mentioned often here as being related to an "n=1/137 hydino". The two idea are not incompatible.
 
This paper came out in May and this is the first time I have seen it... honest... and if it is correct, well... let's just say it ties in nicely with the idea of how electronium, or the hydrino/deuterino would operate to produce cold fusion.
 
...hmm... sour cream or butter?
 
Jones
 
--=====================_1873728562==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 11 08:35:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jABGUMlF010273; Fri, 11 Nov 2005 08:34:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jABG3n3E027528; Fri, 11 Nov 2005 08:03:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 08:03:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20051111072700.02929e08 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 07:37:57 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: NEW ENERGY TIMES -- Issue #13 In-Reply-To: <002e01c5e6ce$89eed7b0$6401a8c0 NuDell> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20051110213708.028f4e08 mail.newenergytimes.com> <002e01c5e6ce$89eed7b0$6401a8c0 NuDell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64392 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones, From my view, your amazement is not without basis. My hunch is when things get sorted out from this, it will be seen that this "theory" will At 06:45 AM 11/11/2005, you wrote: >NEW ENERGY TIMES -- Issue #13 >A most amazing pdf is mentioned here: >http://www.arxiv.org/PS_cache/cond-mat/pdf/0505/0505026.pdf > >I say "amazing" - because it sounds almost exactly like the stimulus for >the "heavy electron" of Widom and Larsen has been mentioned here on vortex >many times earlier - and indeed could be related to the hypothetical >lepton triad, electronium (*e-), of Frederick Sparber, instead of the >muon, which for months Fred and myself have tossed around like the >proverbial hot potato. > >Not ot mention the fact that the "ultra low momentum neutrons" which can >induce "chains of nuclear reactions" sound a lot like the "energy >deficient neutron" which we have mentioned often here as being related to >an "n=1/137 hydino". The two idea are not incompatible. > >This paper came out in May and this is the first time I have seen it... >honest... and if it is correct, well... let's just say it ties in nicely >with the idea of how electronium, or the hydrino/deuterino would operate >to produce cold fusion. > >...hmm... sour cream or butter? > >Jones > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 11 08:38:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jABGbN6E016820; Fri, 11 Nov 2005 08:37:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jABGaws1016335; Fri, 11 Nov 2005 08:36:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 08:36:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <016001c5e6dd$fa774ad0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <0fb201c5e65b$3d9bcbc0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051111095604.0464e040@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: What is an ARFO ? Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 08:35:50 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_015D_01C5E69A.EBEFF1D0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <5TtHnC.A.7-D.ZiMdDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64394 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_015D_01C5E69A.EBEFF1D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable JR writes: > Jones: Do you REALLY, seriously think it is a good idea to have 500 = lbs of=20 > this stuff flapping around in the sky? What would happen if it = crashed?=20 > What if a terrorist gets hold of it? Well, it all gets down to a comparative risk vs rewards thing, and I = have considered that aspect, in regard to some of the comparative risk = issues - vis-a-vis the present day alternative - communication = satellites. I could envision 200-500 total of these planes along the east, west, and = gulf coast in continuous flight - used for communications instead of = orbital satellites. Yes, Murphy's law has not been held in abeyance and = you would loose a few of these per decade. However, when you look at the consequences, they are comparatively = trivial, compared with loosing a nuclear submarine or nuclear-powered = satellite and all communications satellites have some nuclear power in = addition to whatever solar power they are using - and when they crash = and burn in the atmosphere - due to rentry, then that is where the risk = is immensely higher - as even dilluted, you must breath the stuff and it = is usually plutonium which is said to be the worst of the worst when = airborne. Since for the airplanes (as a substitue) would be at low velocity, not = orbital velocity, there is no atmospheric dispersal problem imagineable = even with a high altitude failure. As for ocean impact, the structural = integrity of a filament wound graphite plane should survive a full speed = impact - not intact but the strength of the fibers prevents dispersion, = (as with a flywheel) and you would end up with 500 pounds of highly = radioactive material on the ocean floor. A pittance compared with what = is already there in a few acres of manganese "nodules". For comparative purposes, even if the plane did somehow not survive = impact due to insufficient structural integrity, consider the dispersal = issue - compared to the levels of highly radioactive material already in = the ocean, underneath the area that the plane was flying.=20 Seawater contains "only" 3 milligrams per ton of uranium, slightly less = radon, much more potassium 40, more tritium, and so on. In short there = is *already* in Sea water approximately 25 ppb of equally (or more = toxic) and fully dissolved radioactive material - this is about 25 = metric tons per cubic kilometer. There are about 1000 cubic kilometers = of ocean being circled by any one plane. So even if all of the 500 = pounds became fully dispersed in the ocean underneath its flight path, = that is 500 pounds added to 50 million or an additional one part per = 100,000. This is what I would term a minimal risk, although fisherman = would not want to use this area for a few weeks following a Murphy's law = type accidental impact... but consider present circumstances for = comparison of risk/reward: Twenty-thee miles out from the SF Bay area sit the lovely, seemingly = unspoiled Farallones Islands, where fishermen ply their trade daily. = This beauty hides a deep grim secret. Even in 2005, as they have for = over sixty years, barges from Hunter's Point carrying radioactive waste = pass under the Golden Gate Bridge, heading for clandesting nuclear waste = dumping into the deep water of the Farallones.=20 The East coast and Gulf nuclear dump sites are not as well known as this = one, but they too exist near fishing grounds. The Naval Radiological = Defence Laboratory at Hunters Point, is the West Coast Culprit but there = are other names on the other coasts. No amount of present yearly dumping = adds much to the already immense burden of toxicity which is already = there.=20 But apparently this is not harmful to people! At least no one is = presently raising any issues which point to these sites as = problematic.Thank the Lord for deep waters.=20 The resolution to "pollution," since the beginning of time, has always = been "dilution". They even teach this little catch phrase in ecology = seminars. These days, most bulk nuclear waste is sent out in 55 gallon drums - = originating at the University of California, operator of three national = laboratories, and the acknowledged leader in nuclear research. The US = Navy from Virgina Beach dumps Radioactive waste from the East Coast, = NCIS notwithstanding. McClellan Air Force Base near Sacramento, = supposedly home to more nuke-bombs than any place on earth, also dumps = in the Farallones.=20 In a curious anachronism, barrels that do not go down immediately, are = "holed" by rifle shooting by sailors in order to hasten immediate = sinking. Supposed to be highly sought-after duty. Many of the US Navy's = lower level radioactive waste containers are consequenly breached from = the start, but that is de minimis compared to the waste already there - = on the sea bottom of the Farallon Islands Nuclear Waste Site.=20 The Farallon waste site is a triangle shaped piece of sea space at a = distance of 30 miles west of San Francisco. It is similar in size to the = impact site of one of these planes. This present site encompasses the Gulf of Farallones National Marine = Sanctuary, a refuge of gorgeous marine and other wildlife. The site = includes some of the most fertile commercial fishing waters in the = Pacific. These waters are rich with fish and other sea life. The islands = themselves are home to the nations largest population of breeding sea = birds, and sea lions. But astonishingly this is one of America's largest = sea dumps of nuclear waste... megatons. As long as these dump sites continue to be used, with no apparent health = risks - then additional risk of an occasional lost airplane is not = troubling as far as I can see - and is highly preferable to a lost = communication satellite - for comparative purposes as you do not want to = breath the stuff and if it ever shows up in fish - then it is easire to = pinpoint and eleiminate. BTW lost nuclear subs are said by divers to be beneficial to marine = life, due to the added heat. Go figure. Jones ------=_NextPart_000_015D_01C5E69A.EBEFF1D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
JR writes:

> Jones: Do=20 you REALLY, seriously think it is a good idea to have 500 lbs of =
> this=20 stuff flapping around in the sky? What would happen if it crashed? =
> What=20 if a terrorist gets hold of it?

Well, it all gets down to a = comparative=20 risk vs rewards thing, and I have considered that aspect, in regard to = some of=20 the comparative risk issues - vis-a-vis the present day alternative = -=20 communication satellites.

I could envision 200-500 total of = these=20 planes along the east, west, and gulf coast in continuous flight - = used for=20 communications instead of orbital satellites. Yes, Murphy's law has not = been=20 held in abeyance and you would loose a few of these per = decade.

However,=20 when you look at the consequences, they are comparatively trivial, = compared with=20 loosing a nuclear submarine or nuclear-powered satellite and all = communications=20 satellites have some nuclear power in addition to whatever solar power = they are=20 using - and when they crash and burn in the atmosphere - due = to=20 rentry, then that is where the risk is immensely higher - as even = dilluted, you=20 must breath the stuff and it is usually plutonium which is said to be = the worst=20 of the worst when airborne.

Since for the airplanes (as a = substitue)=20 would be at low velocity, not orbital velocity, there is no atmospheric=20 dispersal problem imagineable even with a high altitude failure. As for = ocean=20 impact, the structural integrity of a filament wound graphite plane = should=20 survive a full speed impact - not intact but the strength of the fibers = prevents=20 dispersion, (as with a flywheel) and you would end up with 500 pounds of = highly=20 radioactive material on the ocean floor. A pittance compared with what = is=20 already there in a few acres of manganese "nodules".

For = comparative=20 purposes, even if the plane did somehow not survive impact due to = insufficient=20 structural integrity, consider the dispersal issue - compared to the = levels of=20 highly radioactive material already in the ocean, underneath the area = that the=20 plane was flying.
 
Seawater contains "only" 3 = milligrams per=20 ton of uranium, slightly less radon, much more potassium 40, more = tritium,=20 and so on. In short there is *already* in Sea water approximately 25 ppb = of=20 equally (or more toxic) and fully dissolved radioactive material - this = is about=20 25 metric tons per cubic kilometer. There are about 1000 cubic = kilometers of=20 ocean being circled by any one plane. So even if all of the 500 pounds = became=20 fully dispersed in the ocean underneath its flight path, that is 500 = pounds=20 added to 50 million or an additional one part per 100,000. This is what = I would=20 term a minimal risk, although fisherman would not want to use this area = for a=20 few weeks following a Murphy's law type accidental impact... but = consider=20 present circumstances for comparison of risk/reward:
 
Twenty-thee miles out from the SF Bay = area sit the=20 lovely, seemingly unspoiled Farallones Islands, where fishermen ply = their trade=20 daily. This beauty hides a deep grim secret. Even in 2005, as they = have for=20 over sixty years, barges from Hunter's Point carrying radioactive waste = pass=20 under the Golden Gate Bridge, heading for clandesting nuclear waste = dumping=20 into the deep water of the Farallones.
 
The East coast and Gulf nuclear dump = sites are not=20 as well known as this one, but they too exist near fishing grounds. = The Naval Radiological Defence Laboratory at = Hunters=20 Point, is the West Coast Culprit but there are other names on the = other=20 coasts. No amount of present yearly dumping adds much to the = already=20 immense burden of toxicity which is already there.
 
But apparently this is not harmful to = people! At=20 least no one is presently raising any issues which point to these sites = as=20 problematic.Thank the Lord for deep = waters.=20
 
The resolution to "pollution," since = the beginning=20 of time, has always been "dilution". They even teach this little catch = phrase in=20 ecology seminars.
 
These days, most bulk nuclear waste is = sent out in=20 55 gallon drums - originating at the University of California, = operator of=20 three national laboratories, and the acknowledged leader in = nuclear=20 research. The US Navy from Virgina Beach dumps Radioactive waste = from the=20 East Coast, NCIS notwithstanding. McClellan Air Force Base near = Sacramento,=20 supposedly home to more nuke-bombs than any place on earth, also = dumps in=20 the Farallones. 
 
In a curious anachronism, barrels that do not go down immediately, are "holed" by = rifle=20 shooting by sailors in order to hasten immediate sinking. Supposed to be = highly=20 sought-after duty. Many of the US = Navy=92s lower=20 level radioactive waste containers are consequenly breached from the=20 start, but that is de minimis compared to the waste already = there - on=20 the sea bottom of the Farallon Islands Nuclear Waste Site. =
 
The Farallon waste site is a triangle = shaped piece=20 of sea space at a distance of 30 miles west of San Francisco. It is = similar in=20 size to the impact site of one of these planes.
 
This present site encompasses the = Gulf of=20 Farallones National Marine Sanctuary, a refuge of gorgeous marine and = other=20 wildlife. The site includes some of the most fertile commercial fishing = waters=20 in the Pacific. These waters are rich with fish and other sea life. The = islands=20 themselves are home to the nations largest population of breeding sea = birds, and=20 sea lions. But astonishingly this is one of America=92s largest sea = dumps of=20 nuclear waste... megatons.
 
As long as these dump sites continue to = be used,=20 with no apparent health risks - then additional risk of an = occasional lost=20 airplane is not troubling as far as I can see - and is highly preferable = to a=20 lost communication satellite - for comparative purposes as you do not = want to=20 breath the stuff and if it ever shows up in fish - then it is easire to = pinpoint=20 and eleiminate.
 
BTW lost nuclear subs are said by = divers to be=20 beneficial to marine life, due to the added heat. Go = figure.
 
Jones
------=_NextPart_000_015D_01C5E69A.EBEFF1D0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 11 09:00:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jABH03eP007470; Fri, 11 Nov 2005 09:00:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jABH00hv007415; Fri, 11 Nov 2005 09:00:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 09:00:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051111115032.04826eb0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 11:59:25 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: What is an ARFO ? In-Reply-To: <016001c5e6dd$fa774ad0$6401a8c0 NuDell> References: <0fb201c5e65b$3d9bcbc0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051111095604.0464e040 pop.mindspring.com> <016001c5e6dd$fa774ad0$6401a8c0 NuDell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64395 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >I could envision 200-500 total of these planes along the east, west, and >gulf coast in continuous flight . . . 500 x 500 lbs of nuclear waste?!? 113 tons? Are you out of your mind? >However, when you look at the consequences, they are comparatively >trivial, compared with loosing a nuclear submarine or nuclear-powered >satellite and all communications satellites have some nuclear power in >addition to whatever solar power they are using . . . I do not think so. As far as I know, only a few military satellites and vehicles that explore the outer reaches of the solar system (where the sun is weak) use plutonium power supplies. These power supplies survive reentry, and for that matter they survive an exploding rocket during launch. In any case, communication satellites are mainly parked in geosynchronous orbits. When they get old they are moved to a higher orbit where they will remain forever. This is because the batteries explode from time to time. See: "Where Satellites Go When They Die To a higher plane." http://www.slate.com/id/2117519/ (By the way, if you could post your messages without HTML text formatting it would be easier for me to read them.) - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 11 09:24:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jABHNbYM031865; Fri, 11 Nov 2005 09:23:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jABHNZBf031838; Fri, 11 Nov 2005 09:23:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 09:23:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051111121550.048271c0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 12:23:05 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RTG equipped spacecraft Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64396 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I researched plutonium powered radioisotope thermoelectric generators (RTG) for the book chapter 2. As far as I know, there have only been ~24 US spacecraft equipped with RTG, and telecom satellites are not among them. See, for example this document, written in 1984: http://science.howstuffworks.com/framed.htm?parent=question136.htm&url=http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/galileo/messenger/oldmess/RTGs.html And this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioisotope_thermoelectric_generators As noted here, the Apollo 13 RTG was supposed to be left on the moon, but the vehicle reentered and burned up over Fiji. The RTG remained intact and ended up in the Tonga trench in the Pacific Ocean. (How they found it I cannot imagine.) Ed Storms is an expert on this subject. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 11 17:19:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAC1J4tp031420; Fri, 11 Nov 2005 17:19:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAC1J03A031368; Fri, 11 Nov 2005 17:19:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 17:19:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <029f01c5e727$0171c060$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: BiosFuel or Koala-water? Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 17:18:35 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64397 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Breakthrough or bunk? I have just downloaded and watched the longish segment from New Zealand TV version of "60 Minutes" - a segment on this new "water-based" fuel from Kiwi-land. It is 40+ megs and a slow-loading drag, but professionally done. A fellow named Steve Ryan, the inventor, is shown driving his motorcycle all over the countryside, burring a fuel based mostly on water, which will cost less than a tenth of the cost of petrol. He won't disclose the formula pending the patent, but since he has filed already, this information is probably available to anyone who wants to do some snooping. Were it more credible, I would be booking a flight down there, but it is not worth even the effort to pursue the patent filing, as it stands now. Here is the website: http://www.biosfuel.org/about.html Bios Fuel claims to have an additive that splits the Water Molecule to produce "Fuel" in the combustion chamber itself. Assuming it is not "koala water" ;-) I've got a pretty good clue what is going on. It may not be an intentional scam, more likely self-deceit. Certainly some hydrocarbons are in the exhaust - they did test for that - but Ryan claims this is from the lubricant. Indeed but how often is he adding lubricant. That is the crucial question which was omitted by their version of Lesley Stahl - who probably is on a flight down-under. Be aware that diesel fuel is a good lubricant, and one can get a lot of energy from burning that kind of lubricant - if say- the piston rings were made as thin spring steel with down-tapered - so that you get fuel-oil into the chamber on the power stroke and yet can still maintain compression. Time will tell. What I think is happening is that he is putting a lot of hydroxyl ions in the water from something - probably sodium or potassium, and then burning some of the lubricant on top of that. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 11 17:53:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAC1qVGq022469; Fri, 11 Nov 2005 17:52:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAC1pfhO021634; Fri, 11 Nov 2005 17:51:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 17:51:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=ix.netcom.com; b=D/1OiyJJittTstkO4gzUX8aQyoY1EhQ5TFznZZLlOIzXyI3YrktLSHq0n872uGa1; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22005116121504220 ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.1.47.0 (Windows) From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: "vortex-l" Subject: FW: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday November 11, 2005 Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 17:50:04 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d8cdef171c0a94a2d25df4b76e2a5592b729ca3e42375bd564350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 216.175.98.41 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64398 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > [Original Message] > From: What's New To: Date: 11/11/2005 11:43:56 AM Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday November 11, 2005 WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 11 Nov 05 Washington, DC 1. INTELLIGENT DESIGN: YOU KNOW WHO'S RUNNING FOR SCHOOL BOARD? In Tuesday's election, voters soundly defeated eight members of the Dover Area School Board. The ninth member was not up for reelection. For now, Dover children will learn biology untainted by religious fable, but events in Kansas should be a warning. Six years ago, the Kansas School Board simply eliminated any mention of biological evolution, or the big bang, from the curriculum http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN99/wn081399.html. Kansans woke up to laughter and voted them out. Unfortunately, school board elections don't get much notice until there's a problem. As soon as the voters relaxed, religious zealots were back on the ballot. The religious right again controls the Kansas School Board. 2. EVOLUTION: THE KANSAS SCHOOL BOARD REDEFINES "INTELLIGENT." As expected, the Kansas Board of Education adopted new teaching standards on Tuesday that go beyond merely letting in intelligent design. The board went straight to the heart of the matter and redefined "science." WN noted earlier that by the Oxford English Dictionary definition, "intelligent design" isn't "science" http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN05/wn080505.html. No problem. If ID doesn't fit the definition, change the definition. In Kansas schools, "science" is now a search for "more adequate explanations of natural phenomena." Who needs physics? Divine intervention can explain everything without all that math. 3. OK, TEACH THE CONTROVERSY: RELIGION HAS All THE DISAGREEMENTS. Last week, WN quoted Cardinal Poupard, head of the Pontifical Council for Culture: "we know the dangers of a religion that severs its links with reason and becomes prey to fundamentalism. The faithful have the obligation to listen to that which secular modern science has to offer." To which WN said "amen." We were still trying to find out if atheists could now become Catholics, when the Pope made it clear that he is the guy in charge. The Pope described the natural world as an "intelligent project," to the delight of the Discovery Institute. Meanwhile, televangelist Pat Robertson warned the people of Dover that if disaster strikes them "don't turn to God, you just ejected him from your city." 4. PATENT NONSENSE: ANOTHER PERPETUAL MOTION MACHINE IS PATENTED. It happens every few years. U.S. pat. 6,960,975, was issued on November 1, 2005 to Boris Volfson for a "Space vehicle propelled by the pressure of inflationary vacuum." It uses a Podkletnov rotating superconducting gravity shield to "change the curvature of space-time." Of course, he does not mention the forbidden words "perpetual motion." The patent office rejects patent applications that use those words under the 1985 ruling in Newman v Quigg. These days you have to call it "zero-point energy." Ironically, the patent was issued shortly after arbitration required the Patent Office to reinstate Tom Valone, who lost his job in the fallout from the 1999 Conference on Free Energy http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN02/wn080202.html. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.bobpark.org What's New is moving to a different listserver and our subscription process has changed. To change your subscription status please visit this link: http://listserv.umd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=bobparks-whatsnew&A=1 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 11 19:20:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAC3JNAo013151; Fri, 11 Nov 2005 19:19:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAC3JLVj013136; Fri, 11 Nov 2005 19:19:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 19:19:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <002801c5e737$ca905000$45037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20051111081825.028fc258 mail.newenergytimes.com> Subject: Re: NEW ENERGY TIMES -- Issue #13 Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 21:18:43 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0025_01C5E705.7EA8C690" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.1 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,HTML_40_50, HTML_MESSAGE,J_CHICKENPOX_44,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64399 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C5E705.7EA8C690 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jones and Steven, Add me to the amazed list, also the first time I have seen it. Notice = the " qualifying" wording in the bottom half of the summary of Widom and = Larsen regarding " do not necessarily constitute evidence for the direct = fusion" Richard ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Steven Krivit=20 To: vortex-l eskimo.com=20 Sent: Friday, November 11, 2005 10:18 AM Subject: Re: NEW ENERGY TIMES -- Issue #13 Jones, From my view, your amazement is not without basis. My hunch is that in time, it will be seen that this "theory" will be = shown to be related to the work of many,many people. :) Steve At 06:45 AM 11/11/2005, you wrote: NEW ENERGY TIMES -- Issue #13 A most amazing pdf is mentioned here: http://www.arxiv.org/PS_cache/cond-mat/pdf/0505/0505026.pdf =20 I say "amazing" - because it sounds almost exactly like the stimulus = for the "heavy electron" of Widom and Larsen has been mentioned here on = vortex many times earlier - and indeed could be related to the = hypothetical lepton triad, electronium (*e-), of Frederick Sparber, = instead of the muon, which for months Fred and myself have tossed around = like the proverbial hot potato. =20 Not ot mention the fact that the "ultra low momentum neutrons" which = can induce "chains of nuclear reactions" sound a lot like the "energy = deficient neutron" which we have mentioned often here as being related = to an "n=3D1/137 hydino". The two idea are not incompatible.=20 =20 This paper came out in May and this is the first time I have seen = it... honest... and if it is correct, well... let's just say it ties in = nicely with the idea of how electronium, or the hydrino/deuterino would = operate to produce cold fusion. =20 ...hmm... sour cream or butter? =20 Jones ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C5E705.7EA8C690 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jones and Steven,
Add me to the amazed list, also the = first time I=20 have seen it. Notice the " qualifying" wording in the bottom half of the = summary=20 of Widom and Larsen regarding " do not necessarily constitute evidence = for the=20 direct fusion"
 
Richard
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Steven Krivit
Sent: Friday, November 11, 2005 = 10:18=20 AM
Subject: Re: NEW ENERGY TIMES = -- Issue=20 #13

Jones,

From my view, your amazement is not = without=20 basis.

My hunch is that in time, it will be seen that this = "theory"=20 will be shown to be related to the work of many,many=20 people.

:)

Steve
At 06:45 AM 11/11/2005, you = wrote:

NEW=20 ENERGY TIMES -- Issue #13
A = most amazing=20 pdf is mentioned here:
http= ://www.arxiv.org/PS_cache/cond-mat/pdf/0505/0505026.pdf
&nb= sp;
I say "amazing" - because it sounds almost = exactly like=20 the stimulus for the "heavy electron" of Widom and Larsen has been = mentioned=20 here on vortex many times earlier - and indeed could be related to = the=20 hypothetical lepton triad, electronium (*e-), of Frederick Sparber, = instead=20 of the muon, which for months Fred and myself have tossed around = like the=20 proverbial hot potato.
 
Not ot=20 mention the fact that the "ultra low momentum neutrons" which can = induce=20 "chains of nuclear reactions" sound a lot like the "energy deficient = neutron" which we have mentioned often here as being related to an = "n=3D1/137=20 hydino". The two idea are not incompatible. =
 
This paper came out in May and this is the = first time I=20 have seen it... honest... and if it is correct, well... let's just = say it=20 ties in nicely with the idea of how electronium, or the = hydrino/deuterino=20 would operate to produce cold fusion.
 
...hmm... sour cream or butter?
 
Jones
 
------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C5E705.7EA8C690-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 11 20:51:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAC4ot1o030446; Fri, 11 Nov 2005 20:51:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAC4orxI030427; Fri, 11 Nov 2005 20:50:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 20:50:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT: The French Connection Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 15:50:29 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20051107170214.72F413D0C xprdmailfe10.nwk.excite.com> <4fdvm1l8k6fuu59qba9a5upofejrpjbeu3@4ax.com> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.59.28] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Sat, 12 Nov 2005 04:50:29 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id jAC4oZQG030280 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64400 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to thomas malloy's message of Fri, 11 Nov 2005 02:23:40 -0600: Hi, [snip] >>Note that the French didn't actually *betray* anyone over Iraq, > >Really, what about the Iraqi people? They got screwed over in >numerous ways. The French had their fingers in the oil for food >scandal. They were cutting lucrative deals with Sadam and happily >burning the oil. According to the fake documents planted in Baghdad after the invasion. Why do I think the documents are fake?..because they read like a who's-who of the people the current US administration doesn't like. > >> >>A vote in the Security Council is democracy in action. Sometimes >>it doesn't go your way. Get used to it. > >The UN is a debating society, and a rather ineffectual one at that. All large human gatherings end up being debating societies, it's human nature. >They screwed the Iraqi people even more than the French with oil for >food, If I had my way, America would with draw it's membership and >financial support from the UN. What kind of a fool would allow Sudan >to chair the Human Rights Commission? This is a good point. > >>The real problem is that the US is all for majority rule, as long >>as it is part of the majority, but when the shoe is on the other > >You conveniently ignore that Sadam had, and used WMD. The UN gave him >orders to account for certain materials and he ignored them. http://www.arabicnews.com/ansub/Daily/Day/020921/2002092124.html >We >decided that the world would be better off with one less tin horn >dictator, and IMHO it is. 1) Iraq is almost certainly better off without Saddam, but the world as a whole almost certainly worse off as a consequence of the *increase* in animosity among Muslims world wide, brought on by the war. 2) Saddam could have been disposed of without going to war. However the US administration wanted a war. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 12 00:21:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAC8Krnb004065; Sat, 12 Nov 2005 00:21:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAC8Kpx4004036; Sat, 12 Nov 2005 00:20:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 00:20:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Message-ID: <4375A5C2.6040808 iinet.net.au> Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 19:20:18 +1100 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: ISS OT References: <200511031348.29717.rockcast@earthlink.net> <436C62B0.3040207@iinet.net.au> <200511071252.01236.rockcast@earthlink.net> <43726E20.3040708@iinet.net.au> <6.2.1.2.2.20051110103922.0465cb80@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20051110103922.0465cb80 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64401 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Well said Jed. Jed Rothwell wrote: > Wesley Bruce wrote: > >> We can't rule out a collapse of communism in China or a shattering of >> the peoples republic, both would be messy, very messy. > > > Not necessarily. The collapse of communism in Russia and Eastern > Europe was calm and orderly, with practically no casualties. Of course > Russia still has a long way to go before it achieves Western European > standards, but it is improving and it is far better than it was under > communism. I expect that China will gradually evolve away from > communism, until the government is overthrown in a "velvet revolution." > > Doomsday scenarios seldom come true, because most people are sane, and > they want to live in peace. In the 1950s, many people assumed that the > US and the Soviet Union would eventually launch a nuclear Armageddon, > but it never happened. It turned out we could live with them and they > could live with us. I am 110% confident that we can reach the same > kind of accommodation with China and also with Muslim nations such as > Saudi Arabia. See Kennedy's speech at American University, June 1963: > > http://usa.usembassy.de/etexts/speeches/rhetoric/jfkuniv.htm > > QUOTE > > "Some say that it is useless to speak of world peace or world law or > world disarmament - and that it will be useless until the leaders of > the Soviet Union adopt a more enlightened attitude. I hope they do. I > believe we can help them do it. But I also believe that we must > reexamine our own attitude - as individuals and as a Nation - for our > attitude is as essential as theirs. . . . > > First: Let us examine our attitude toward peace itself. Too many of us > think it is impossible. Too many think it unreal. But that is a > dangerous, defeatist belief. It leads to the conclusion that war is > inevitable - that mankind is doomed - that we are gripped by forces we > cannot control. > > We need not accept that view. Our problems are manmade - therefore, > they can be solved by man. And man can be as big as he wants. No > problem of human destiny is beyond human beings. Man's reason and > spirit have often solved the seemingly unsolvable - and we believe > they can do it again." > > Remember that! If you have any doubts, look around and see what we > have accomplished already. Read history, and try to realize how > difficult it was to build civilization. You will see that our present > problems are small in comparison. > > Also, the notion that France is going to be taken over by Muslim > civilization is nonsense. No trend lasts forever. If anything, over > the next few hundred years I expect Western values and science will > permeate Muslim nations even more than it has already, despite their > opposition. Science and democracy, which are two sides of the same > coin, are the most powerful ideas in human history. They outweigh even > religion, nationalism, capitalism and communism. I think they will > continue to move mountains and change civilizations for many centuries > to come. Long after capitalism has been replaced by a system in which > we will produce all the goods we want for free, and people do no work, > and long after nation states have withered away and international > borders no longer exist, science will still be progressing. Today's > news offers hope. Science and rationality have triumphed in Dover, PA: > > "All eight members of the Pennsylvania school board that had been sued > for introducing the teaching of intelligent design as an alternative > to evolution in biology class were swept out of office Tuesday by a > slate of challengers who campaigned against the intelligent-design > policy." > > - Jed > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 12 01:15:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAC9DpNj026018; Sat, 12 Nov 2005 01:14:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAC9Dkua025962; Sat, 12 Nov 2005 01:13:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 01:13:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Message-ID: <4375B22B.5020607 iinet.net.au> Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 20:13:15 +1100 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: RTG equipped spacecraft References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051111121550.048271c0 pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20051111121550.048271c0 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64402 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > I researched plutonium powered radioisotope thermoelectric generators > (RTG) for the book chapter 2. As far as I know, there have only been > ~24 US spacecraft equipped with RTG, and telecom satellites are not > among them. See, for example this document, written in 1984: > > http://science.howstuffworks.com/framed.htm?parent=question136.htm&url=http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/galileo/messenger/oldmess/RTGs.html > > > And this: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioisotope_thermoelectric_generators > > As noted here, the Apollo 13 RTG was supposed to be left on the moon, > but the vehicle reentered and burned up over Fiji. The RTG remained > intact and ended up in the Tonga trench in the Pacific Ocean. (How > they found it I cannot imagine.) > > Ed Storms is an expert on this subject. > > - Jed > > Each RTG is impact armoured to survive impact with the water and stay sealed. They have a radio transmitter and a sonar beacon that will probablely still be gowing beep decades from now given the power source. I believe they may have a dye release system that marks the splashdown point. Given the trenches depth I suspect it will only be a few years before someone retreaves the RTG with an ROV. It would be quite safe if you put it in a lead glass box and keep oxygen away from anything that might rust. Any bit of an apollo mission would be worth its weight in gold. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 12 04:35:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jACCZHFu019174; Sat, 12 Nov 2005 04:35:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jACCZCKn019130; Sat, 12 Nov 2005 04:35:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 04:35:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=prGQwDOQUtmVazd2SVXdr+DRp8THti88BWSKNtMUNUj4i/+sh507SJCvtkSF0qS/; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200511612113427740 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: RTG equipped spacecraft Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 05:34:27 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940a656275041e9c45ad08ab110eca0cf79350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.230 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64403 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Jed wrote: > > The RTG remained intact and ended up in the > Tonga trench in the >Pacific Ocean. > Yes. The design work on re-entry impact integrity of the capsules was a Sandia project. They were designed to withstand impact on granite at 300 feet per second. We used the rocket-propelled sled track with a granite block (tombstone) to impact the red-hot capsules.. An early RTG-equipped Pioneer launch-aborted from Vandenberg landed in the Pacific off Point Loma. The capsules were recovered intact. The RTGs on Pioneer-10 and Voyagers 1 and 2 even after 30 plus years of operation are still producing power within 15% of launch rating. Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Jed wrote:
>
> The RTG remained intact and ended up in the
> Tonga trench in the >Pacific Ocean.
>
Yes. The design work on re-entry impact integrity of the capsules
was a Sandia project.
They were designed to withstand impact on granite at 300 feet per
second. We used the rocket-propelled sled track with a granite block (tombstone) to impact the red-hot capsules..
An early RTG-equipped Pioneer launch-aborted from Vandenberg
landed in the Pacific off Point Loma. The capsules were recovered intact.
The RTGs on Pioneer-10 and Voyagers 1 and 2 even after
30 plus years of operation are still producing power within 15%
of launch rating.
 
Fred
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 12 06:30:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jACEU4JX020575; Sat, 12 Nov 2005 06:30:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jACE3UJ7004403; Sat, 12 Nov 2005 06:03:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 06:03:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000c01c5e791$c7020640$5e037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Focus Fusion Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 08:02:53 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C5E75F.7BE5BC10"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.4 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,HTML_90_100,HTML_MESSAGE,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64404 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C5E75F.7BE5BC10 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0009_01C5E75F.7BE5BC10" ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C5E75F.7BE5BC10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankAnother link, any input ? http://users.erols.com/iri/FocusFusion-Ver6.htm Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C5E75F.7BE5BC10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Another link, any input ?

 http://users.erols.com/iri/FocusFusion-Ver6.htm

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C5E75F.7BE5BC10-- ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C5E75F.7BE5BC10 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000701c5e791$c6788af0$5e037841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C5E75F.7BE5BC10-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 12 08:40:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jACGdOCI003621; Sat, 12 Nov 2005 08:39:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jACGdGU5003468; Sat, 12 Nov 2005 08:39:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 08:39:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=ikDBNY0h5ATCQYCRPHtpbzdchcHtB35XNZwpUzG/3+sK49Gjyte5/pc5CbInRD5Y; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <411-2200511612153051200 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Focus Fusion Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 09:30:51 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940cd8321b011dab114b22c3fc558482bd3350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.165.114 Resent-Message-ID: <34FtlB.A.-1.yqhdDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64405 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Why not P + 7 Lithium, that releases two Alphas and twice the energy (17.4 Mev as opposed to 8.7 Mev) for P + 11 Boron. Lithium Hydride LiH fuel (Z = 3 as opposed to Z = 5 vaporizes at ~ 600 C) should require lower energy. Fred Richard Macaulay wrote: Another link, any input ? http://users.erols.com/iri/FocusFusion-Ver6.htm Richard ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Blank
Why not  P + 7 Lithium, that releases two Alphas and twice
the energy (17.4 Mev as opposed to 8.7 Mev) for P + 11 Boron.
 
Lithium Hydride LiH fuel (Z = 3 as opposed to Z = 5 vaporizes at ~ 600 C) should require lower energy.
 
Fred

Richard Macaulay wrote:
Another link, any input ?

 http://users.erols.com/iri/FocusFusion-Ver6.htm

Richard

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 12 11:30:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jACJU7PA003921; Sat, 12 Nov 2005 11:30:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jACJU4hv003899; Sat, 12 Nov 2005 11:30:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 11:30:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=tI8W/YuhrROqL4233fJTPx3cqkRasEJaHkeLD+wS32ZkfmcJrAFonHe+Y0HzRC+0; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200511612182918930 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Back to the Bike Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 12:29:18 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9400b46722e621db4ef95b79d88e62af05a350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.113 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64406 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Taking a header? http://www.pedalinghistory.com/PHhistory.html FJS ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Taking a header?
 
 
FJS
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 12 12:59:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jACKweI7016602; Sat, 12 Nov 2005 12:58:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jACKwbV2016584; Sat, 12 Nov 2005 12:58:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 12:58:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 15:58:40 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: OffTopic: $1 Million Contest Details In-reply-to: <048b01c5e754$33f43a40$9f58060a annaophb5ed3f4> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_QahAyyHbwuqW074hlzg68g)" User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64407 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --Boundary_(ID_QahAyyHbwuqW074hlzg68g) Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable $1 Million Contest Details This is void where prohibited by law: including but not limited to Colorado , Maryland , Nebraska , North Dakota, Vermont, New Jersey and Tennessee. It is void anywhere prohibited by law. The contest page supercedes all previous ones and all previous offers are withdrawn. 11-Nov-2005. Only one significant change has been made since the beginning except for clarification, point 12 about molten steel. In response to challenges that one cannot prove a negative this paragraph has been added. There are several famous negative "proofs" that are accepte= d by the entire scientific community: The Second Law of Thermodymanics. The Heisenburg Principal If I prove that I am at point A, that proves I am not at point B. If one claims that there is an elephant in a room and we enter the room to find that it is empty, that proves there is not an elephant in the room. This challenge has taken the form of the latter two logical statements above. When people say you cannot prove a negative, they are referring to statements like:=20 "This exists because there is no proof that it does not exist." All explanations, in all parts of this contest must be supported with detailed drawings for all significant events. Particularly, explain and document with drawings and engineering the following video clips: 1) In first video at 0:02 the puffs start below the collapse. 2) At 0:05 several floors blow out at the exact same time. 3) The explosions come in waves. 4) The 3rd video shows puffs coming out of floors far below the buckling section. 5) At 0:09 some puffs come out of single windows far below the collapse. Remember that the government claims that the elevator shafts were open chimneys so that would have been the path of least resistance to the blown out windows in the lobbies. 6) At 0:12 at the lower left corner of th= e building explodes ahead of the collapse. 7) The 7th video, the collapse is not floor by floor as the left side explodes approximately 4 floors ahead o= f the right side at the corner, not the middle of the floor as the FEMA drawings show. 8) The first north tower video the same. 9) The second North Tower video the demolition "squibs" of dust shooting out several floors below the "collapse". 10) In the last video the fireman describes how was EVERYTHING reduced to dust, everything. Not even standard controlled demolitions do that as building 7 showed. No building collapse has ever don= e that. Explain and document. 11) The second flash above and our screen saver show a video of pieces of the building flying UP and out over 100 meters with trails of smoke and dus= t following them (at 6.1 seconds you see the best example); provide details and drawings of how this happened including the trails of smoke and dust. Remember that steel is brittle, it does not flex like Iron. Therefore there is no possibility of it flexing enough to catapult itself upward. 12) This is a new requirement on November 11, 2005: There are several published observations of molten metal in the basements of all three buildings, WTC 1, 2 and 7. For example, Dr. Keith Eaton toured Ground Zero and stated in The Structural Engineer, "They showed us many fascinating slides [Eaton] continued, ranging from molten metal which was still red hot weeks after the event, to 4-inch thick steel plates sheared and bent in the disaster." (Structural Engineer, September 3, 2002, p. 6; emphasis added.) The observation of molten metal at Ground Zero was emphasized publicly by Leslie Robertson, the structural engineer responsible for the design of the World Trade Center Towers, who reported that "As of 21 days after the attack, the fires were still burning and molten steel was still running." (Williams, 2001, p. 3; emphasis added.) Sarah Atlas was part of New Jersey's Task Force One Urban Search and Rescue and was one of the first on the scene at Ground Zero with her canine partne= r Anna. She reported in Penn Arts and Sciences, summer 2002, "'Nobody's goin= g to be alive.' Fires burned and molten steel flowed in the pile of ruins still settling beneath her feet." (Penn, 2002; emphasis added.) Dr. Allison Geyh was one of a team of public health investigators from John= s Hopkins who visited the WTC site after 9-11. She reported in the Late Fall 2001 issue of Magazine of Johns Hopkins Public Health, "In some pockets now being uncovered they are finding molten steel." Since steel melts at approximately 2,800=B0 Fahrenheit. The maximum temperature of a flame in open air is 1800 degrees F. FEMA and NIST claim a temperature of only 90O=B0 Fahrenheit was reached to weaken the steel. Explai= n how the steel melted without explosives. 13) Entrants must prove how the trade towers steel structure was broken apart without explosives in 8.4 seconds. There is a sequence of photos in Eric Hufschmid's Painful Questions on pages 50 to 55 showing big steel beam= s falling in the air where the explosives are staying ahead of the falling beams. That shows exactly what the seismic data shows; namely, the explosives were shattering the building faster than the rubble was falling. The steel beams were falling at free fall speeds. The formula for distance and time is: s=3D=BDat=B2=20 Where:=20 s =3D distance in feet a =3D gravitational constant: 32 ft/sec=B2 t =3D time in seconds. The videos and seismic records show that the time of one structure's destruction was approximately 8.4 seconds though the complete settling of the building lasted slightly longer, perhaps as long as 12 seconds, but not long enough to account for anything but explosives. s =3D =BD * 32 * 8.5=B2 s =3D 1156 feet=20 However, WTC 1 (the north tower) had a roof height of 1,368 feet. WTC 2 (th= e south tower) was nearly as tall, with a roof height of 1,362 feet. Each floor was therefore approximately 12.5 feet. It is therefore proven that the towers' structures were destroyed at very close to free fall speed, perhaps faster since there is air resistance to consider. Impossible without explosives. 14) Since it is alleged that the floors pancaked down on each other crushin= g each floor as it went, entrants' must prove explosives were not used with a time line with the energy needed, mass affected, time to fall and time to break all of the hundreds of thousands of bolts, rivets and welds, crush al= l the concrete plus thousands of computers, desks, copy machines, all the office contents, the speed of the total falling mass after each impact, and net mass falling after each observed ejection of the dust clouds of concret= e powder, and the energy required to send the cloud all the way to New Jersey in a self-contained flow (this alone requires 14 tons of explosives - the 1= 4 tons paper must be disproved as part of this contest. 15) Contestants must show exactly how the concrete was pulverized and ejected with detailed drawings).=20 16) Force is a factor relative to resistance. For instance, we are on the earth's surface spinning around the earth's center at 1000 miles per hour. So we each have the POTENTIAL force of our individual masses being in a wreck at 1000 mph. But since we and most of the objects on the earth are al= l moving at the same relative speed, there is nothing for this force to work against and we are unharmed - in effect there is no force. The same holds true for the building collapses. The potential force to crush the concrete by the falling mass is relative to the resistance it meets. If there is no resistance, there is no crushing. If there is a little resistance, then there will be a little crushing, and so on, depending on the amount of resistance. If the bolts, rivets, and welds held, then the building would not continue to collapse. If the resistance of the bolts, rivets, and welds was less than the power needed to crush concrete, then the concrete would not have been crushed until the whole mass hit the ground. Entrants must prove that the steel bolts, rivets, and welds still had the resistance to stop the falling mass long enough for the concrete and contents to be crushed. Then they must explain what made them fail after the concrete was crushed. The timing is important since it takes time to do anything, especially to crush concrete, steel desks, etc. Entrants must include the energy required, source, resistance, and timing for breaking the bolts, rivets, welds, office contents, and concrete. 17) Entrants' must prove how the floors fell straight down so that each floor was crushed uniformly and how the pulverized dust was ejected from a steel pan with a steel plate and carpet over it. The official diagrams show each floor hitting in the middle of the lower floor. If so, then the concrete in the center might have been crushed, but not at the edges. Since all the concrete was pulverized, entrants must explain this in detail. Moreover, the graphic and video at the top of this page show that the collapses in that portion were not straight down: that the lower left corne= r is 4 or more stories ahead of the right. This must be explained in detail and, like every other significant point, with drawings and then the mechanism that changed the fall to straight down. To disprove explosives were used, entrants must further : 18) Provide a time and heat transfer study of attainable temperatures withi= n the core and perimeter columns based on best available data on fuel load, air supply, efficiency of combustion and the spatial and temporal extent of the fires, which the photographs and firemen's radio transmissions show wer= e small.=20 19) Describe in detail what =93additional local failures=94 took place, consistent with temperatures attained and initial damage. 20) Explain in detail how such local failures could lead to sudden and complete failure of all core columns. 21) Account for the highly symmetrical and near-vertical character of the collapses.=20 22) Describe the initiating event and mode of propagation of the final collapse, consistent with the observed progression of the collapses, including the near free-fall speed and (almost) complete disappearance of the core columns.=20 The first person to prove explosives were NOT used in all of the above with a full, detailed mathematical analysis covering all of the points above wil= l receive $1,000,000. The proof will be subject to verification by a scientific panel of PHD engineers, physicists, and lawyers. This offer is void where prohibited by law. Jimmy Walter=20 mailto:jwalter walden3.org?subject=3DEngineering Data --Boundary_(ID_QahAyyHbwuqW074hlzg68g) Content-type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable OffTopic: $1 Million Contest Details

$1 Million Contest Details

This is void where prohibited by law: including but not limited t= o Colorado , Maryland , Nebraska , North Dakota, Vermont, New Jersey and Ten= nessee. It is void anywhere prohibited by law.

The contest page supercedes all previous ones and all previous offers are w= ithdrawn. 11-Nov-2005. Only one significant change has been made since the b= eginning except for clarification, point 12 about molten steel.

In response to challenges that one cannot prove a negative this paragraph h= as been added. There are several famous negative "proofs" that are= accepted by the entire scientific community:
The Second Law of Thermodymanics.
The Heisenburg Principal

If I prove that I am at point A, that proves I am not at point B.

If one claims that there is an elephant in a room and we enter the room to = find that it is empty, that proves there is not an elephant in the room.
This challenge has taken the form of the latter two logical st= atements above. When people say you cannot prove a negative, they are referr= ing to statements like:
"This exists because there is no pro= of that it does not exist."

All explanations, in all parts of this contest must be supported with detai= led drawings for all significant events. Particularly, explain and document = with drawings and engineering the following video clips: 1) In first video at 0:02 the puffs start below the collapse. 2) A= t 0:05 several floors blow out at the exact same time. 3) The explosions com= e in waves. 4) The 3rd video shows puffs coming= out of floors far below the buckling section. 5) At 0:09 some puffs come ou= t of single windows far below the collapse. Remember that the government cla= ims that the elevator shafts were open chimneys so that would have been the = path of least resistance to the blown out windows in the lobbies. 6) At 0:12= at the lower left corner of the building explodes ahead of the collapse. 7)= The 7th video, the collapse is not floor by fl= oor as the left side explodes approximately 4 floors ahead of the right side= at the corner, not the middle of the floor as the FEMA drawings show. 8) Th= e first north tower video the same. 9) The second North Tower video the demolition "squib= s" of dust shooting out several floors below the "collapse". = 10) In the last video the fireman describes how= was EVERYTHING reduced to dust, everything. Not even standard controlled de= molitions do that as building 7 showed. No building collapse has ever done t= hat. Explain and document.

11) The second flash above and our screen saver show a video of pieces of t= he building flying UP and out over 100 meters with trails of smoke and dust = following them (at 6.1 seconds you see the best example); provide details an= d drawings of how this happened including the trails of smoke and dust. Remember that steel is brittle, it does not flex like Iron= . Therefore there is no possibility of it flexing enough to catapult = itself upward.

12) This is a new requirement on November 11, 2005: There are several publi= shed observations of molten metal in the basements of all three build= ings, WTC 1, 2 and 7.  For example,
Dr. Keith Eaton toured Ground Zero and stated in The Structu= ral Engineer, "They showed us many fascinating slides [Eaton] conti= nued, ranging from molten metal which was still red hot weeks = after the event, to 4-inch thick steel plates sheared and bent in the disast= er." (Structural Engineer, September 3, 2002, p. 6; emphasis add= ed.)

The observation of molten metal at Ground Zero was emphasized publicly by L= eslie Robertson, the structural engineer responsible for the design of the W= orld Trade Center Towers, who reported that "As of 21 days after the at= tack, the fires were still burning and molten steel was still running= ."  (Williams, 2001, p. 3; emphasis added.)

Sarah Atlas was part of New Jersey's Task Force One Urban Search and Rescue= and was one of the first on the scene at Ground Zero with her canine partne= r Anna.  She reported in Penn Arts and Sciences, summer 2002, &q= uot;'Nobody's going to be alive.' Fires burned and molten steel fl= owed in the pile of ruins still settling beneath her feet." (Penn, = 2002; emphasis added.)

Dr. Allison Geyh was one of a team of public health investigators from John= s Hopkins who visited the WTC site after 9-11. She reported in the Late Fall= 2001 issue of Magazine of Johns Hopkins Public Health, "In some pocket= s now being uncovered they are finding molten steel."

Since steel melts at approximately 2,800=B0 Fahrenheit. The maximum temperatu= re of a flame in open air is 1800 degrees F. FEMA and NIST claim a temperatu= re of only 90O=B0 Fahrenheit was reached to weaken the steel. Explain how the = steel melted without explosives.
13) Entrants must prove how the trade towers steel structur= e was broken apart without explosives in 8.4 seconds.   There = is a sequence of photos in Eric Hufschmid's Painful Qu= estions on pages 50 to 55 showing big st= eel beams falling in the air where the explosives are staying ahead of the f= alling beams. That shows exactly what the seismic data shows; namely, the ex= plosives were shattering the building faster than the rubble was falling. Th= e steel beams were falling at free fall speeds.

The formula for distance and time is:

s=3D=BDat=B2

Where:

s =3D distance in feet
a =3D gravitational constant: 32 ft/sec=B2
t =3D time in seconds.

The videos and seismic records show that the t= ime of one structure's destruction was approximately 8.4 seconds though the = complete settling of the building lasted slightly longer, perhaps as long as= 12 seconds, but not long enough to account for anything but explosives.
s =3D =BD * 32 * 8.5=B2
s =3D 1156 feet

However, WTC 1 (the north tower) had a roof height of 1,368 feet. WTC 2 (the south tower) was nearly as tall, with a roof = height of 1,362 feet. Each floor was therefore = approximately 12.5 feet.

It is therefore proven that the towers' structures were destroyed at very c= lose to free fall speed, perhaps faster since there is air resistance to con= sider. Impossible without explosives.

14) Since it is alleged that the floors pancaked down on each other crushin= g each floor as it went, entrants' must prove explosives were not used with = a time line with the energy needed, mass affected, time to fall and time to = break all of the hundreds of thousands of bolts, rivets and welds, crush all= the concrete plus thousands of computers, desks, copy machines, all the off= ice contents, the speed of the total falling mass after each impact, and net= mass falling after each observed ejection of the dust= clouds of concrete powder, and the energy required to send the cloud= all the way to New Jersey in a self-contained flow (this alone requires 14 tons of explosives - the = 14 tons paper must be disproved as part of this contest. 15) Contesta= nts must show exactly how the concrete was pulverized and ejected with detai= led drawings).

16) Force is a factor relative to resistance. For instance, we are on the e= arth's surface spinning around the earth's center at 1000 miles per hour. So= we each have the POTENTIAL force of our individual masses being in a wreck = at 1000 mph. But since we and most of the objects on the earth are all movin= g at the same relative speed, there is nothing for this force to work agains= t and we are unharmed - in effect there is no force. The same holds true for= the building collapses. The potential force to crush the concrete by the fa= lling mass is relative to the resistance it meets. If there is no resistance= , there is no crushing. If there is a little resistance, then there will be = a little crushing, and so on, depending on the amount of resistance. If the = bolts, rivets, and welds held, then the building would not continue to colla= pse. If the resistance of the bolts, rivets, and welds was less than the pow= er needed to crush concrete, then the concrete would not have been crushed u= ntil the whole mass hit the ground. Entrants must prove that the steel bolts= , rivets, and welds still had the resistance to stop the falling mass long e= nough for the concrete and contents to be crushed. Then they must explain wh= at made them fail after the concrete was crushed. The timing is important si= nce it takes time to do anything, especially to crush concrete, steel desks,= etc. Entrants must include the energy required, source, resistance, and tim= ing for breaking the bolts, rivets, welds, office contents, and concrete.
17) Entrants' must prove how the floors fell straight down so that each flo= or was crushed uniformly and how the pulverized dust was ejected from a stee= l pan with a steel plate and carpet over it. The official diagrams show each= floor hitting in the middle of the lower floor. If so, then the concrete in= the center might have been crushed, but not at the edges. Since all the con= crete was pulverized, entrants must explain this in detail. Moreover, the gr= aphic and video at the top of this page show that the collapses in that port= ion were not straight down: that the lower left corner is 4 or more stories = ahead of the right. This must be explained in detail and, like every other s= ignificant point, with drawings and then the mechanism that changed the fall= to straight down.

To disprove explosives were used, entrants must further :

18) Provide a time and heat transfer study of attainable temperatures withi= n the core and perimeter columns based on best available data on fuel load, = air supply, efficiency of combustion and the spatial and temporal extent of = the fires, which the photographs and firemen's radio transmissions show were= small.

19) Describe in detail what =93additional local failures=94 took place, consist= ent with temperatures attained and initial damage.

20) Explain in detail how such local failures could lead to sudden and comp= lete failure of all core columns.

21) Account for the highly symmetrical and near-vertical character of the c= ollapses.

22) Describe the initiating event and mode of propagation of the final coll= apse, consistent with the observed progression of the collapses, including t= he near free-fall speed and (almost) complete disappearance of the core colu= mns.

The first person to prove explosives were NOT used in all of the above with= a full, detailed mathematical analysis covering all of the points above wil= l receive $1,000,000. The proof will be subject to verification by a scienti= fic panel of PHD engineers, physicists, and lawyers.

This offer is void where prohibited by law.

Jimmy Walter

mailto:jwalter walden3.org?subject=3DEngineering Data
--Boundary_(ID_QahAyyHbwuqW074hlzg68g)-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 12 19:48:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAD3m5RG004374; Sat, 12 Nov 2005 19:48:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAD3m1aw004325; Sat, 12 Nov 2005 19:48:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 19:48:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=hRG1nw3REfM2UlvfVPGdhHp6h8tV3bghzzBj2OoFeW2+2aMCMGJuAhoj1YhPgspG; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220051101324656480 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: O. T. The Road to wellville. Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 20:46:56 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9401823d91d2371d8515da0cbb19844d915350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.65 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64408 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII I had acquired a copy of this on VHS looking for historical content about Battle Creek (Michigan) corn flakes. The movie turned out to be more hysterical than historical. http://www.manchesteronline.co.uk/entertainment/filmandtv/videoanddvd/s/122/122809_the_road_to_wellville_18.html After watching the movie, Susan's comment takes on a different slant: http://www.pedalinghistory.com/PHhistory.html "In 1896 Susan B. Anthony said that "the bicycle has done more for the emancipation of women than anything else in the world." " No cars in this 19th century "expose". Lots of horseflesh too. Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

I had acquired a copy of this on VHS looking for historical
content about Battle Creek (Michigan) corn flakes.
 
The movie turned out to be more hysterical than historical.
 
 
After watching the movie, Susan's comment takes on a different slant:
 
 
"In 1896 Susan B. Anthony said that "the bicycle has done more for the emancipation of women than anything else in the world." "
No cars in this 19th century "expose". Lots of horseflesh too.

Fred

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 13 05:18:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jADDHUGS017721; Sun, 13 Nov 2005 05:17:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jADDHR1B017688; Sun, 13 Nov 2005 05:17:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 05:17:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=rS7ItTUu8TBIU1lC9jbfFhge4cIsxMAziFK2ukDw12IFOmEIga+WttO78GHmV7NI; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200511013121612510 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Focus Fusion Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 06:16:12 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9409d3b420175c50804f0ee152d1c4b3266350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.217 Resent-Message-ID: <9z3egD.A.TUE.mzzdDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64409 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII The electrostatic repulsive force (coulomb barrier) between a proton (Z =1) and the boron nucleus (Z = 5 ) at an approach distance d, is 1 * 5 * kq^2/d^2 = 1,152 newtons (258 pounds) at d = 1.0e-15 meters or 0.00115 newtons at d = 1.0e-12 meters. 3/5th of that for the Proton 7 Lithium barrier, 2/5th for Deuterium -3 Helium and 1/5th for the D-D or D-T coulomb barrier, Quite a hill to climb. Cockcroft and Walton bombarded boron with 500 KeV protons in 1926 and got miniscule quantities of fusion reactions. Wish them luck with their "Billion Degree" (100 KeV) Focus Fusion device where the protons and the boron nuclei are all going in the same direction. :-) Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

The electrostatic repulsive force (coulomb barrier) between
a proton (Z =1) and the boron nucleus (Z = 5 ) at an approach
distance d, is 1 * 5 * kq^2/d^2 = 1,152 newtons (258 pounds) at
d = 1.0e-15 meters or 0.00115 newtons at  d = 1.0e-12 meters.   
 
3/5th of that for the Proton 7 Lithium barrier,  2/5th for Deuterium -3 Helium
and 1/5th for the D-D  or D-T coulomb barrier,
 
Quite a hill to climb.  Cockcroft and Walton bombarded boron with
500 KeV protons in 1926 and got miniscule quantities of  fusion reactions.
 
Wish them luck with their "Billion Degree"  (100 KeV) Focus Fusion device
where the protons and the boron nuclei are all going in the same direction.  :-)
 
Fred
 
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 13 17:36:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAE1ZrkV022275; Sun, 13 Nov 2005 17:36:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAE1Zf4f022186; Sun, 13 Nov 2005 17:35:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 17:35:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000c01c5e8bb$a6fcc940$d1017841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Focus Fusion Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 19:35:09 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C5E889.5BD2C370" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.5 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,HTML_50_60,HTML_MESSAGE,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64410 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C5E889.5BD2C370 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0009_01C5E889.5BD44A10" ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C5E889.5BD44A10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankFred ,=20 Below is a reply from Eric Lerner inregard to your post below >Hi Richard, >Actually reaction rates are not just a product of Coulomb barrier. At = 200keV the reaction rate for pB11 is nearly 4 times that for >Li-P. = Also, the compression in a DPF improves with increasing nuclear mass and = charge. These factor tend to compensate >for lithium's lesser x-ray = emission. Eric Fred wrote.. The electrostatic repulsive force (coulomb barrier) between=20 a proton (Z =3D1) and the boron nucleus (Z =3D 5 ) at an approach=20 distance d, is 1 * 5 * kq^2/d^2 =3D 1,152 newtons (258 pounds) at d =3D 1.0e-15 meters or 0.00115 newtons at d =3D 1.0e-12 meters. =20 3/5th of that for the Proton 7 Lithium barrier, 2/5th for Deuterium -3 = Helium=20 and 1/5th for the D-D or D-T coulomb barrier,=20 Quite a hill to climb. Cockcroft and Walton bombarded boron with 500 KeV protons in 1926 and got miniscule quantities of fusion = reactions. Wish them luck with their "Billion Degree" (100 KeV) Focus Fusion = device where the protons and the boron nuclei are all going in the same = direction. :-) Fred ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C5E889.5BD44A10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Fred ,
Below is a reply from Eric Lerner inregard to your post below

>Hi Richard,

>Actually reaction rates are not just a = product of=20 Coulomb barrier. At 200keV the reaction rate for pB11 is nearly 4 times = that for=20 >Li-P.  Also, the compression in a DPF improves with increasing = nuclear=20 mass and charge.  These factor tend to compensate >for lithium's = lesser=20 x-ray emission.  Eric

 


  Fred wrote..

The electrostatic repulsive force (coulomb barrier) between
a proton (Z =3D1) and the boron nucleus (Z =3D 5 ) at an approach =
distance d, is 1 * 5 * kq^2/d^2 =3D 1,152 newtons (258 pounds) = at
d =3D 1.0e-15 meters or 0.00115 newtons at  d =3D 1.0e-12 = meters.=20   
 
3/5th of that for the Proton 7 Lithium barrier,  2/5th for = Deuterium=20 -3 Helium
and 1/5th for the D-D  or D-T coulomb barrier,
 
Quite a hill to climb.  Cockcroft and Walton bombarded boron=20 with
500 KeV protons in 1926 and got miniscule quantities of =  fusion=20 reactions.
 
Wish them luck with their "Billion Degree"  (100 KeV) Focus = Fusion=20 device
where the protons and the boron nuclei are all going in the same=20 direction.  :-)
 
Fred
------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C5E889.5BD44A10-- ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C5E889.5BD2C370 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000701c5e8bb$a6689f90$d1017841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C5E889.5BD2C370-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 13 21:10:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAE5ABlr017693; Sun, 13 Nov 2005 21:10:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAE5A9RA017639; Sun, 13 Nov 2005 21:10:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 21:10:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=qSD2bkvFUKyEIhuOHrW8GrUj9vSv23YShjDuLyEUjYPLfXyOLZDbrX8PswDpHves; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:User-Agent:References:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Disposition:Message-Id:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: ISS OT Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 00:27:24 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051110103922.0465cb80@pop.mindspring.com> <4375A5C2.6040808@iinet.net.au> In-Reply-To: <4375A5C2.6040808 iinet.net.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200511140027.24331.rockcast earthlink.net> X-ELNK-Trace: 161777525297e62b1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79b1f3632a9fc40d9932d72da449a44133350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 71.115.182.204 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64411 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The assumption of sanity may not hold with Sunni Arabs who have shown capabilities of treachery and duplicity and insanity rivaling even the Catholics at the time of the Inquisition. Look how they call westerners 'crusaders' when the most successful 'crusaders' against Moslems was Ghengis Khan. Khan and his heirs sought to root out and destroy the Moslems totally. Khan was a Nestorian Christian, not a pagan as some believed, and blamed the Moslems for destroying the seat of his faith in Esfahan and other cities in where modern Iran is now. Were it not for the Moslems, a third great center of Christianity would exist where Iran and Iraq is now. Even now the moslems live in mortal fear of any incursion from the East. Standing Bear On Saturday 12 November 2005 03:20, Wesley Bruce wrote: > Well said Jed. > > Jed Rothwell wrote: > > Wesley Bruce wrote: > >> We can't rule out a collapse of communism in China or a shattering of > >> the peoples republic, both would be messy, very messy. > > > > Not necessarily. The collapse of communism in Russia and Eastern > > Europe was calm and orderly, with practically no casualties. Of course > > Russia still has a long way to go before it achieves Western European > > standards, but it is improving and it is far better than it was under > > communism. I expect that China will gradually evolve away from > > communism, until the government is overthrown in a "velvet revolution." > > > > Doomsday scenarios seldom come true, because most people are sane, and > > they want to live in peace. In the 1950s, many people assumed that the > > US and the Soviet Union would eventually launch a nuclear Armageddon, > > but it never happened. It turned out we could live with them and they > > could live with us. I am 110% confident that we can reach the same > > kind of accommodation with China and also with Muslim nations such as > > Saudi Arabia. See Kennedy's speech at American University, June 1963: > > > > http://usa.usembassy.de/etexts/speeches/rhetoric/jfkuniv.htm > > > > QUOTE > > > > "Some say that it is useless to speak of world peace or world law or > > world disarmament - and that it will be useless until the leaders of > > the Soviet Union adopt a more enlightened attitude. I hope they do. I > > believe we can help them do it. But I also believe that we must > > reexamine our own attitude - as individuals and as a Nation - for our > > attitude is as essential as theirs. . . . > > > > First: Let us examine our attitude toward peace itself. Too many of us > > think it is impossible. Too many think it unreal. But that is a > > dangerous, defeatist belief. It leads to the conclusion that war is > > inevitable - that mankind is doomed - that we are gripped by forces we > > cannot control. > > > > We need not accept that view. Our problems are manmade - therefore, > > they can be solved by man. And man can be as big as he wants. No > > problem of human destiny is beyond human beings. Man's reason and > > spirit have often solved the seemingly unsolvable - and we believe > > they can do it again." > > > > Remember that! If you have any doubts, look around and see what we > > have accomplished already. Read history, and try to realize how > > difficult it was to build civilization. You will see that our present > > problems are small in comparison. > > > > Also, the notion that France is going to be taken over by Muslim > > civilization is nonsense. No trend lasts forever. If anything, over > > the next few hundred years I expect Western values and science will > > permeate Muslim nations even more than it has already, despite their > > opposition. Science and democracy, which are two sides of the same > > coin, are the most powerful ideas in human history. They outweigh even > > religion, nationalism, capitalism and communism. I think they will > > continue to move mountains and change civilizations for many centuries > > to come. Long after capitalism has been replaced by a system in which > > we will produce all the goods we want for free, and people do no work, > > and long after nation states have withered away and international > > borders no longer exist, science will still be progressing. Today's > > news offers hope. Science and rationality have triumphed in Dover, PA: > > > > "All eight members of the Pennsylvania school board that had been sued > > for introducing the teaching of intelligent design as an alternative > > to evolution in biology class were swept out of office Tuesday by a > > slate of challengers who campaigned against the intelligent-design > > policy." > > > > - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 13 21:27:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAE5QdSB028525; Sun, 13 Nov 2005 21:26:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAE5QaLV028477; Sun, 13 Nov 2005 21:26:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 21:26:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=cVL9r7lAvmlh5cMGcvMQWDfu6+w/d3yO9CI4v1MfuXGKlq8OoH4fBIod2r4SF/PR; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:User-Agent:References:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Disposition:Message-Id:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l eskimo.com, Harry Veeder Subject: Re: OffTopic: $1 Million Contest Details Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 00:37:59 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200511140037.59320.rockcast earthlink.net> X-ELNK-Trace: 161777525297e62b1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79f2c736cf46414ed891dea4fbc57c06ae350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 71.115.182.204 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id jAE5QIaH028372 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64412 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Outside of the fact that obvious commercial exploitation of the members of this list is not accepted, one should remember that ole Osama Bin Laden is a civil engineer, and the building company of his family specializes in construction of high rise structures. He would know better than anyone about the moment distribution of reactions and forces among all the support members and connections therein such a building. ....but then if certain government forces wanted to stage a Reichstag Incident, then Laden makes a dandy Herr Lubbe to take the 'fall'. Of course if that were true, then many in our government have much blood on their hands...and a willingness to add more to keep from being found out. Of course all this is speculation....... Standing Bear On Saturday 12 November 2005 15:58, Harry Veeder wrote: > $1 Million Contest Details > > This is void where prohibited by law: including but not limited to Colorado > , Maryland , Nebraska , North Dakota, Vermont, New Jersey and Tennessee. It > is void anywhere prohibited by law. > > The contest page supercedes all previous ones and all previous offers are > withdrawn. 11-Nov-2005. Only one significant change has been made since the > beginning except for clarification, point 12 about molten steel. > > In response to challenges that one cannot prove a negative this paragraph > has been added. There are several famous negative "proofs" that are > accepted by the entire scientific community: > The Second Law of Thermodymanics. > The Heisenburg Principal > > If I prove that I am at point A, that proves I am not at point B. > > If one claims that there is an elephant in a room and we enter the room to > find that it is empty, that proves there is not an elephant in the room. > This challenge has taken the form of the latter two logical statements > above. When people say you cannot prove a negative, they are referring to > statements like: > "This exists because there is no proof that it does not exist." > > All explanations, in all parts of this contest must be supported with > detailed drawings for all significant events. Particularly, explain and > document with drawings and engineering the following video clips: 1) In > first video at 0:02 the puffs start below the collapse. 2) At 0:05 several > floors blow out at the exact same time. 3) The explosions come in waves. 4) > The 3rd video shows puffs coming out of floors far below the buckling > section. 5) At 0:09 some puffs come out of single windows far below the > collapse. Remember that the government claims that the elevator shafts were > open chimneys so that would have been the path of least resistance to the > blown out windows in the lobbies. 6) At 0:12 at the lower left corner of > the building explodes ahead of the collapse. 7) The 7th video, the collapse > is not floor by floor as the left side explodes approximately 4 floors > ahead of the right side at the corner, not the middle of the floor as the > FEMA drawings show. 8) The first north tower video the same. 9) The second > North Tower video the demolition "squibs" of dust shooting out several > floors below the "collapse". 10) In the last video the fireman describes > how was EVERYTHING reduced to dust, everything. Not even standard > controlled demolitions do that as building 7 showed. No building collapse > has ever done that. Explain and document. > > 11) The second flash above and our screen saver show a video of pieces of > the building flying UP and out over 100 meters with trails of smoke and > dust following them (at 6.1 seconds you see the best example); provide > details and drawings of how this happened including the trails of smoke and > dust. Remember that steel is brittle, it does not flex like Iron. Therefore > there is no possibility of it flexing enough to catapult itself upward. > > 12) This is a new requirement on November 11, 2005: There are several > published observations of molten metal in the basements of all three > buildings, WTC 1, 2 and 7. For example, > Dr. Keith Eaton toured Ground Zero and stated in The Structural Engineer, > "They showed us many fascinating slides [Eaton] continued, ranging from > molten metal which was still red hot weeks after the event, to 4-inch thick > steel plates sheared and bent in the disaster." (Structural Engineer, > September 3, 2002, p. 6; emphasis added.) > > The observation of molten metal at Ground Zero was emphasized publicly by > Leslie Robertson, the structural engineer responsible for the design of the > World Trade Center Towers, who reported that "As of 21 days after the > attack, the fires were still burning and molten steel was still running." > (Williams, 2001, p. 3; emphasis added.) > > Sarah Atlas was part of New Jersey's Task Force One Urban Search and Rescue > and was one of the first on the scene at Ground Zero with her canine > partner Anna. She reported in Penn Arts and Sciences, summer 2002, > "'Nobody's going to be alive.' Fires burned and molten steel flowed in the > pile of ruins still settling beneath her feet." (Penn, 2002; emphasis > added.) > > Dr. Allison Geyh was one of a team of public health investigators from > Johns Hopkins who visited the WTC site after 9-11. She reported in the Late > Fall 2001 issue of Magazine of Johns Hopkins Public Health, "In some > pockets now being uncovered they are finding molten steel." > > Since steel melts at approximately 2,800° Fahrenheit. The maximum > temperature of a flame in open air is 1800 degrees F. FEMA and NIST claim a > temperature of only 90O° Fahrenheit was reached to weaken the steel. > Explain how the steel melted without explosives. > 13) Entrants must prove how the trade towers steel structure was broken > apart without explosives in 8.4 seconds. There is a sequence of photos in > Eric Hufschmid's Painful Questions on pages 50 to 55 showing big steel > beams falling in the air where the explosives are staying ahead of the > falling beams. That shows exactly what the seismic data shows; namely, the > explosives were shattering the building faster than the rubble was falling. > The steel beams were falling at free fall speeds. > > The formula for distance and time is: > > s=½at² > > Where: > > s = distance in feet > a = gravitational constant: 32 ft/sec² > t = time in seconds. > > The videos and seismic records show that the time of one structure's > destruction was approximately 8.4 seconds though the complete settling of > the building lasted slightly longer, perhaps as long as 12 seconds, but not > long enough to account for anything but explosives. > > s = ½ * 32 * 8.5² > s = 1156 feet > > However, WTC 1 (the north tower) had a roof height of 1,368 feet. WTC 2 > (the south tower) was nearly as tall, with a roof height of 1,362 feet. > Each floor was therefore approximately 12.5 feet. > > It is therefore proven that the towers' structures were destroyed at very > close to free fall speed, perhaps faster since there is air resistance to > consider. Impossible without explosives. > > 14) Since it is alleged that the floors pancaked down on each other > crushing each floor as it went, entrants' must prove explosives were not > used with a time line with the energy needed, mass affected, time to fall > and time to break all of the hundreds of thousands of bolts, rivets and > welds, crush all the concrete plus thousands of computers, desks, copy > machines, all the office contents, the speed of the total falling mass > after each impact, and net mass falling after each observed ejection of the > dust clouds of concrete powder, and the energy required to send the cloud > all the way to New Jersey in a self-contained flow (this alone requires 14 > tons of explosives - the 14 tons paper must be disproved as part of this > contest. 15) Contestants must show exactly how the concrete was pulverized > and ejected with detailed drawings). > > 16) Force is a factor relative to resistance. For instance, we are on the > earth's surface spinning around the earth's center at 1000 miles per hour. > So we each have the POTENTIAL force of our individual masses being in a > wreck at 1000 mph. But since we and most of the objects on the earth are > all moving at the same relative speed, there is nothing for this force to > work against and we are unharmed - in effect there is no force. The same > holds true for the building collapses. The potential force to crush the > concrete by the falling mass is relative to the resistance it meets. If > there is no resistance, there is no crushing. If there is a little > resistance, then there will be a little crushing, and so on, depending on > the amount of resistance. If the bolts, rivets, and welds held, then the > building would not continue to collapse. If the resistance of the bolts, > rivets, and welds was less than the power needed to crush concrete, then > the concrete would not have been crushed until the whole mass hit the > ground. Entrants must prove that the steel bolts, rivets, and welds still > had the resistance to stop the falling mass long enough for the concrete > and contents to be crushed. Then they must explain what made them fail > after the concrete was crushed. The timing is important since it takes time > to do anything, especially to crush concrete, steel desks, etc. Entrants > must include the energy required, source, resistance, and timing for > breaking the bolts, rivets, welds, office contents, and concrete. > > 17) Entrants' must prove how the floors fell straight down so that each > floor was crushed uniformly and how the pulverized dust was ejected from a > steel pan with a steel plate and carpet over it. The official diagrams show > each floor hitting in the middle of the lower floor. If so, then the > concrete in the center might have been crushed, but not at the edges. Since > all the concrete was pulverized, entrants must explain this in detail. > Moreover, the graphic and video at the top of this page show that the > collapses in that portion were not straight down: that the lower left > corner is 4 or more stories ahead of the right. This must be explained in > detail and, like every other significant point, with drawings and then the > mechanism that changed the fall to straight down. > > To disprove explosives were used, entrants must further : > > 18) Provide a time and heat transfer study of attainable temperatures > within the core and perimeter columns based on best available data on fuel > load, air supply, efficiency of combustion and the spatial and temporal > extent of the fires, which the photographs and firemen's radio > transmissions show were small. > > 19) Describe in detail what “additional local failures” took place, > consistent with temperatures attained and initial damage. > > 20) Explain in detail how such local failures could lead to sudden and > complete failure of all core columns. > > 21) Account for the highly symmetrical and near-vertical character of the > collapses. > > 22) Describe the initiating event and mode of propagation of the final > collapse, consistent with the observed progression of the collapses, > including the near free-fall speed and (almost) complete disappearance of > the core columns. > > The first person to prove explosives were NOT used in all of the above with > a full, detailed mathematical analysis covering all of the points above > will receive $1,000,000. The proof will be subject to verification by a > scientific panel of PHD engineers, physicists, and lawyers. > > This offer is void where prohibited by law. > > Jimmy Walter > > mailto:jwalter walden3.org?subject=Engineering Data From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 14 04:29:21 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAECSJr9023563; Mon, 14 Nov 2005 04:28:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAECS5kC023331; Mon, 14 Nov 2005 04:28:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 04:28:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=B1ze8fApiAnX8UjB3RF1epv+4yC3yrenrY9Cg5Y9KTSB/tPHUetzF+aX+Hq5QrEr; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <411-2200511114112641200 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Focus Fusion Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 05:26:41 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940a59216575cf73fbfd9a0c31ec77fdc90350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.7 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64413 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Okay Richard, if you want to wrestle the greased pig add some Lithium Borohydride LiBH4 to the Borane Fuel. :-) Fred Richard wrote, Fred , Below is a reply from Eric Lerner inregard to your post below >Hi Richard, >Actually reaction rates are not just a product of Coulomb barrier. At 200keV the reaction rate for pB11 is nearly 4 times that for >Li-P. Also, the compression in a DPF improves with increasing nuclear mass and charge. These factor tend to compensate >for lithium's lesser x-ray emission. Eric Fred wrote.. The electrostatic repulsive force (coulomb barrier) between a proton (Z =1) and the boron nucleus (Z = 5 ) at an approach distance d, is 1 * 5 * kq^2/d^2 = 1,152 newtons (258 pounds) at d = 1.0e-15 meters or 0.00115 newtons at d = 1.0e-12 meters. 3/5th of that for the Proton 7 Lithium barrier, 2/5th for Deuterium -3 Helium and 1/5th for the D-D or D-T coulomb barrier, Quite a hill to climb. Cockcroft and Walton bombarded boron with 500 KeV protons in 1926 and got miniscule quantities of fusion reactions. Wish them luck with their "Billion Degree" (100 KeV) Focus Fusion device where the protons and the boron nuclei are all going in the same direction. :-) Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Blank
Okay Richard, if you want to wrestle the greased pig add some Lithium Borohydride LiBH4
to the Borane Fuel.  :-)
 
Fred
 
Richard wrote,
Fred ,
Below is a reply from Eric Lerner inregard to your post below

>Hi Richard,

>Actually reaction rates are not just a product of Coulomb barrier. At 200keV the reaction rate for pB11 is nearly 4 times that for >Li-P.  Also, the compression in a DPF improves with increasing nuclear mass and charge.  These factor tend to compensate >for lithium's lesser x-ray emission.  Eric

 


  Fred wrote..

The electrostatic repulsive force (coulomb barrier) between
a proton (Z =1) and the boron nucleus (Z = 5 ) at an approach
distance d, is 1 * 5 * kq^2/d^2 = 1,152 newtons (258 pounds) at
d = 1.0e-15 meters or 0.00115 newtons at  d = 1.0e-12 meters.   
 
3/5th of that for the Proton 7 Lithium barrier,  2/5th for Deuterium -3 Helium
and 1/5th for the D-D  or D-T coulomb barrier,
 
Quite a hill to climb.  Cockcroft and Walton bombarded boron with
500 KeV protons in 1926 and got miniscule quantities of  fusion reactions.
 
Wish them luck with their "Billion Degree"  (100 KeV) Focus Fusion device
where the protons and the boron nuclei are all going in the same direction.  :-)
 
Fred
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Description: Blank Bkgrd.gif Content-Id: <410-22005111141126381801 13071999> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 14 06:08:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAEE7KDA021823; Mon, 14 Nov 2005 06:07:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAEE78FF021589; Mon, 14 Nov 2005 06:07:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 06:07:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <001201c5e924$9e7af580$f1027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Cc: "Eric Lerner" References: <411-2200511114112641200 earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Focus Fusion Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 08:06:32 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000E_01C5E8F2.532795C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.5 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,HTML_50_60,HTML_MESSAGE,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: <1GcMDB.A.GRF.KoJeDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64414 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C5E8F2.532795C0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000F_01C5E8F2.532795C0" ------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C5E8F2.532795C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankFred, OK, I sent Eric a link to the vorts. Hopefully, he will join and engage = in a little " wrestling". What's the old saying..arguing with a scientist is like wrestling with a = pig in the mud.. sooner or later, you realize the pig loves it. Richard ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Frederick Sparber=20 To: vortex-l eskimo.com=20 Sent: Monday, November 14, 2005 5:26 AM Subject: Re: Focus Fusion Okay Richard, if you want to wrestle the greased pig add some Lithium = Borohydride LiBH4 to the Borane Fuel. :-) Fred Richard wrote, Fred ,=20 Below is a reply from Eric Lerner inregard to your post below >Hi Richard, >Actually reaction rates are not just a product of Coulomb barrier. = At 200keV the reaction rate for pB11 is nearly 4 times that for >Li-P. = Also, the compression in a DPF improves with increasing nuclear mass and = charge. These factor tend to compensate >for lithium's lesser x-ray = emission. Eric Fred wrote.. The electrostatic repulsive force (coulomb barrier) between=20 a proton (Z =3D1) and the boron nucleus (Z =3D 5 ) at an approach=20 distance d, is 1 * 5 * kq^2/d^2 =3D 1,152 newtons (258 pounds) at d =3D 1.0e-15 meters or 0.00115 newtons at d =3D 1.0e-12 meters. = 3/5th of that for the Proton 7 Lithium barrier, 2/5th for Deuterium = -3 Helium=20 and 1/5th for the D-D or D-T coulomb barrier,=20 Quite a hill to climb. Cockcroft and Walton bombarded boron with 500 KeV protons in 1926 and got miniscule quantities of fusion = reactions. Wish them luck with their "Billion Degree" (100 KeV) Focus Fusion = device where the protons and the boron nuclei are all going in the same = direction. :-) Fred ------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C5E8F2.532795C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Fred,
OK, I sent Eric a link to the vorts. = Hopefully, he will=20 join and engage in a little " wrestling".
What's the old saying..arguing with a = scientist is like=20 wrestling with a pig in the mud.. sooner or later, you realize the pig = loves=20 it.
Richard
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Frederick Sparber
Sent: Monday, November 14, 2005 = 5:26=20 AM
Subject: Re: Focus Fusion

Okay Richard, if you want to wrestle the greased pig add some = Lithium=20 Borohydride LiBH4
to the Borane Fuel.  :-)
 
Fred
 
Richard wrote,
Fred ,=20
Below is a reply from Eric Lerner inregard to your post = below

>Hi Richard,

>Actually reaction rates are not just a = product=20 of Coulomb barrier. At 200keV the reaction rate for pB11 is nearly 4 = times=20 that for >Li-P.  Also, the compression in a DPF improves = with=20 increasing nuclear mass and charge.  These factor tend to = compensate=20 >for lithium's lesser x-ray emission.  Eric

 


  Fred wrote..

The electrostatic repulsive force (coulomb barrier) between =
a proton (Z =3D1) and the boron nucleus (Z =3D 5 ) at an = approach
distance d, is 1 * 5 * kq^2/d^2 =3D 1,152 newtons (258 pounds) = at
d =3D 1.0e-15 meters or 0.00115 newtons at  d =3D = 1.0e-12 meters.=20   
 
3/5th of that for the Proton 7 Lithium barrier,  2/5th for = Deuterium -3 Helium
and 1/5th for the D-D  or D-T coulomb barrier,
 
Quite a hill to climb.  Cockcroft and Walton bombarded = boron=20 with
500 KeV protons in 1926 and got miniscule quantities of=20  fusion reactions.
 
Wish them luck with their "Billion Degree"  (100 KeV) = Focus Fusion=20 device
where the protons and the boron nuclei are all going in the = same=20 direction.  :-)
 
Fred
------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C5E8F2.532795C0-- ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C5E8F2.532795C0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000d01c5e924$9d98d2e0$f1027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C5E8F2.532795C0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 14 06:31:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAEEVC8w003159; Mon, 14 Nov 2005 06:31:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAEEV9KA003130; Mon, 14 Nov 2005 06:31:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 06:31:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43789F94.1040904 pobox.com> Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 09:30:44 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.10) Gecko/20050719 Fedora/1.7.10-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Jed Predicting a "gradual extinction" of Cold Fusion? References: <007e01c5d50d$c70daae0$a4b1e118 D54BYG11> <6.2.1.2.2.20051020115037.04552590@pop.mindspring.com> <00d201c5d5c7$a408de60$a4b1e118@D54BYG11> <6.2.1.2.2.20051020185343.042eccc0@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20051020185343.042eccc0 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <4BQRiB.A.2w.t-JeDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64415 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > John Coviello wrote: > >> I had no idea that the situation was that dire for the ICCFs. I hope >> there were some late participants planning on coming to this year's >> ICCF in Japan. What was the high water mark for the ICCF conferences? > > > Judging by the group photo I would say it was ICCF-3, in Japan. That > was also the peak in the number of papers submitted to the > proceedings. I have a handy index EndNote index of papers developed by > Britz and Storms. It may not have every single paper, but here are > totals for each ICCF conference: > > 1, 38 > 2, 62 > 3, 102 > 4, 93 > 5, 77 > 6, 70 > 7, 93 > 8, 69 > 9, 94 > 10, 93 > 11, 68 For no particularly good reason, I fitted a couple curves to these and plotted them. In keeping with the no-attached-images semirule I stuck it here: http://physicsinsights.org/images/iccf-papers-versus-event.png Green line is a straight linear fit to the full dataset, blue line is a quadratic fit (showing a peak at around ICCF 7, FWIW), and the (slightly thicker) magenta line is a linear fit with the first three ICCF's removed from the dataset. So, ignoring ICCF 1, 2, 3, the result is a gradual falling trend. For whatever that's worth... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 14 07:44:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAEFhXgJ030008; Mon, 14 Nov 2005 07:43:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAEFgfkP029046; Mon, 14 Nov 2005 07:42:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 07:42:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4378AF94.8090409 ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 08:39:00 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Jed Predicting a "gradual extinction" of Cold Fusion? References: <007e01c5d50d$c70daae0$a4b1e118 D54BYG11> <6.2.1.2.2.20051020115037.04552590@pop.mindspring.com> <00d201c5d5c7$a408de60$a4b1e118@D54BYG11> <6.2.1.2.2.20051020185343.042eccc0@pop.mindspring.com> <43789F94.1040904@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: <43789F94.1040904 pobox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64416 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: An interesting graph. However, the scatter in the data creates an uncertainty that makes a constant interest equally likely. Based on a constant interest, the average is 79 ± 14, with ICCF-1 and ICCF-3 being outliers at both extremes. Ed Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > > Jed Rothwell wrote: > >> John Coviello wrote: >> >>> I had no idea that the situation was that dire for the ICCFs. I hope >>> there were some late participants planning on coming to this year's >>> ICCF in Japan. What was the high water mark for the ICCF conferences? >> >> >> >> Judging by the group photo I would say it was ICCF-3, in Japan. That >> was also the peak in the number of papers submitted to the >> proceedings. I have a handy index EndNote index of papers developed by >> Britz and Storms. It may not have every single paper, but here are >> totals for each ICCF conference: >> >> 1, 38 >> 2, 62 >> 3, 102 >> 4, 93 >> 5, 77 >> 6, 70 >> 7, 93 >> 8, 69 >> 9, 94 >> 10, 93 >> 11, 68 > > > For no particularly good reason, I fitted a couple curves to these and > plotted them. In keeping with the no-attached-images semirule I stuck > it here: > > http://physicsinsights.org/images/iccf-papers-versus-event.png > > Green line is a straight linear fit to the full dataset, blue line is a > quadratic fit (showing a peak at around ICCF 7, FWIW), and the (slightly > thicker) magenta line is a linear fit with the first three ICCF's > removed from the dataset. > > So, ignoring ICCF 1, 2, 3, the result is a gradual falling trend. > > For whatever that's worth... > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 14 08:50:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAEGmd4S019505; Mon, 14 Nov 2005 08:48:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAEGmNQv019152; Mon, 14 Nov 2005 08:48:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 08:48:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: temalloy mail.usfamily.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20051111203750.04dbe048 pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20051111203750.04dbe048 pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 10:45:13 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: BLP's patent Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64417 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: BLP's patent
Vortexians;


Pat Bailey  has brought this most regrettable turn of events to my attention. The evil Dr. Park has succeeded in damming up the river of human progress, let us hope that this is just temporary.

I just noticed that the old devil has seen to shoot off his mouth on anti gravity machines too. If canceling gravity required more energy than was released by the fall of the object back to the earth, than it wouldn't be free energy.

Black Light Power has had it=92s granted US Patent revoked
And all of their other applications blocked
Because
Their explanation is different than the 1930=92s view of the atomic model of the hydrogen atom.
 
To me, it all just means that =93It is impossible=94 and =93You can=92t do it=94
So I can in another country
And get the business before you=85
Naw naw=85
 
[Should=92a used a Trade Secret, like Coca Cola=85
 US Patent Applications get CLASSIFIED.]
 
PB.
 
 http://www.sciencedaily.com/upi/index.php?feed=3DScience&article=3DUPI-1-20051109-13140400-bc-us-antigravity.xml
 
Patent issued for anti-gravity device
WASHINGTON, Nov. 9 (UPI) -- The U.S. patent office has reportedly granted a patent for an anti-gravity device -- breaking its rule to reject inventions that defy the laws of physics.
 
The journal Nature said patent 6,960,975 was granted Nov. 1 to Boris Volfson of Huntington, Ind., for a space vehicle propelled by a superconducting shield that alters the curvature of space-time outside the craft in a way that counteracts gravity.
 
One of the main theoretical arguments against anti-gravity is that it implies the availability of unlimited energy.
 
"If you design an anti-gravity machine, you've got a perpetual-motion machine," Robert Park of the American Physical Society told Nature.
 
Park said the action shows patent examiners are being duped by false science.
 
Copyright 2005 by United Press International. All Rights Reserved.


--- USFamily.Net - $8.25/mo! -- Highspeed - $19.99/mo! ---

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 14 08:52:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAEGpCYQ021082; Mon, 14 Nov 2005 08:51:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAEGolHG020642; Mon, 14 Nov 2005 08:50:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 08:50:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: temalloy mail.usfamily.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <20051107170214.72F413D0C xprdmailfe10.nwk.excite.com> <4fdvm1l8k6fuu59qba9a5upofejrpjbeu3 4ax.com> Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 10:45:13 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: OT: The French Connection Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64418 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >In reply to thomas malloy's message of Fri, 11 Nov 2005 02:23:40 >-0600: >Hi, >[snip] >>>Note that the French didn't actually *betray* anyone over Iraq, >> >>Really, what about the Iraqi people? They got screwed over in >>numerous ways. The French had their fingers in the oil for food >>scandal. They were cutting lucrative deals with Sadam and happily >>burning the oil. > >According to the fake documents planted in Baghdad after the >invasion. Why do I think the documents are fake?..because they >read like a who's-who of the people the current US administration >doesn't like. So, you believe that the Kurds gassed themselves to make Saddam look bad? Or perhaps the Iranians invaded and gassed them? What about the mass graves? more mass suicide? How about the wedding parties where the bride was raped and the groom shot if he objected? More attempts to make Saddam look bad? The Iraqi Government employment documents, in which the man's job description was "taker of the honor of women", another fake? > >> >>> >>>A vote in the Security Council is democracy in action. Sometimes >>>it doesn't go your way. Get used to it. >> >>The UN is a debating society, and a rather ineffectual one at that. > >All large human gatherings end up being debating societies, it's >human nature. I love to debate. The UN has carried corruption to new heights. They are every bureaucratic nightmare on steroids. > >>They screwed the Iraqi people even more than the French with oil for >>food, If I had my way, America would with draw it's membership and >>financial support from the UN. What kind of a fool would allow Sudan >>to chair the Human Rights Commission? > >This is a good point. Thank you > > >>>The real problem is that the US is all for majority rule, as long >>>as it is part of the majority, but when the shoe is on the other >> >>You conveniently ignore that Sadam had, and used WMD. The UN gave him >>orders to account for certain materials and he ignored them. > >http://www.arabicnews.com/ansub/Daily/Day/020921/2002092124.html > >>We >>decided that the world would be better off with one less tin horn >>dictator, and IMHO it is. > >1) Iraq is almost certainly better off without Saddam, but the >world as a whole almost certainly worse off as a consequence of >the *increase* in animosity among Muslims world wide, brought on >by the war. I don't understand how, having previously declared jihad (holy war) against another group of people, you can possibly increase animosity. >2) Saddam could have been disposed of without going to war. >However the US administration wanted a war. >Regards, Yah, and who do you think would have deposed him if we hadn't, the UN? The Arab League? Both groups had members who were too busy lining their pockets with the proceeds of the oil for food program to let something like that happen. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 14 09:09:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAEH7xoR000666; Mon, 14 Nov 2005 09:08:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAEH6CuM032049; Mon, 14 Nov 2005 09:06:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 09:06:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=Cdpt2/qqAf/bzhPO24o+VFIoQ4xgn02XAcuc2NAyJUbk0HL66ThQH0DDXaLayIz1; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <411-2200511114151925950 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Focus Fusion Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 09:19:25 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9400a6785649d04097bcf2b03c33eb314cf350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.120.161 Resent-Message-ID: <2x0tzD.A.h0H.CQMeDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64419 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Richard, The greased pig wrestling match was referring to the inner workings of the Focus Fusion device, not it's champion. :-) Fred ----- Original Message ----- From: RC Macaulay To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: Eric Lerner Sent: 11/14/05 8:07:27 AM Subject: Re: Focus Fusion Fred, OK, I sent Eric a link to the vorts. Hopefully, he will join and engage in a little " wrestling". What's the old saying..arguing with a scientist is like wrestling with a pig in the mud.. sooner or later, you realize the pig loves it. Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l eskimo.com Sent: Monday, November 14, 2005 5:26 AM Subject: Re: Focus Fusion Okay Richard, if you want to wrestle the greased pig add some Lithium Borohydride LiBH4 to the Borane Fuel. :-) Fred Richard wrote, Fred , Below is a reply from Eric Lerner inregard to your post below >Hi Richard, >Actually reaction rates are not just a product of Coulomb barrier. At 200keV the reaction rate for pB11 is nearly 4 times that for >Li-P. Also, the compression in a DPF improves with increasing nuclear mass and charge. These factor tend to compensate >for lithium's lesser x-ray emission. Eric Fred wrote.. The electrostatic repulsive force (coulomb barrier) between a proton (Z =1) and the boron nucleus (Z = 5 ) at an approach distance d, is 1 * 5 * kq^2/d^2 = 1,152 newtons (258 pounds) at d = 1.0e-15 meters or 0.00115 newtons at d = 1.0e-12 meters. 3/5th of that for the Proton 7 Lithium barrier, 2/5th for Deuterium -3 Helium and 1/5th for the D-D or D-T coulomb barrier, Quite a hill to climb. Cockcroft and Walton bombarded boron with 500 KeV protons in 1926 and got miniscule quantities of fusion reactions. Wish them luck with their "Billion Degree" (100 KeV) Focus Fusion device where the protons and the boron nuclei are all going in the same direction. :-) Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Blank
Richard,
 
The greased pig wrestling match was referring to the inner workings of
the Focus Fusion device, not it's champion.  :-)
 
Fred
 
----- Original Message -----
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: 11/14/05 8:07:27 AM
Subject: Re: Focus Fusion

Fred,
OK, I sent Eric a link to the vorts. Hopefully, he will join and engage in a little " wrestling".
What's the old saying..arguing with a scientist is like wrestling with a pig in the mud.. sooner or later, you realize the pig loves it.
Richard
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, November 14, 2005 5:26 AM
Subject: Re: Focus Fusion

Okay Richard, if you want to wrestle the greased pig add some Lithium Borohydride LiBH4
to the Borane Fuel.  :-)
 
Fred
 
Richard wrote,
Fred ,
Below is a reply from Eric Lerner inregard to your post below

>Hi Richard,

>Actually reaction rates are not just a product of Coulomb barrier. At 200keV the reaction rate for pB11 is nearly 4 times that for >Li-P.  Also, the compression in a DPF improves with increasing nuclear mass and charge.  These factor tend to compensate >for lithium's lesser x-ray emission.  Eric

 


  Fred wrote..

The electrostatic repulsive force (coulomb barrier) between
a proton (Z =1) and the boron nucleus (Z = 5 ) at an approach
distance d, is 1 * 5 * kq^2/d^2 = 1,152 newtons (258 pounds) at
d = 1.0e-15 meters or 0.00115 newtons at  d = 1.0e-12 meters.   
 
3/5th of that for the Proton 7 Lithium barrier,  2/5th for Deuterium -3 Helium
and 1/5th for the D-D  or D-T coulomb barrier,
 
Quite a hill to climb.  Cockcroft and Walton bombarded boron with
500 KeV protons in 1926 and got miniscule quantities of  fusion reactions.
 
Wish them luck with their "Billion Degree"  (100 KeV) Focus Fusion device
where the protons and the boron nuclei are all going in the same direction.  :-)
 
Fred
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 14 09:39:54 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAEHcmMX024468; Mon, 14 Nov 2005 09:39:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAEHchqC024342; Mon, 14 Nov 2005 09:38:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 09:38:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051114121230.04e7eb10 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 12:16:30 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: OT: The French Connection Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64421 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halabja_poison_gas_attack For most of the 1990s the official U.S. and CIA position was that the attack was carried out by Iran, not Iraq. This is common knowledge until September 11, 2001, but like so much else it was stuffed down the memory hole (see the book "1984") in the mad rush to rewrite history to justify the present war. Orwell was one prescient guy. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 14 09:40:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAEHcpxI024599; Mon, 14 Nov 2005 09:39:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAEHcjVO024369; Mon, 14 Nov 2005 09:38:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 09:38:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051114115537.04e73950 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 12:02:39 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: OT: The French Connection In-Reply-To: References: <20051107170214.72F413D0C xprdmailfe10.nwk.excite.com> <4fdvm1l8k6fuu59qba9a5upofejrpjbeu3 4ax.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64422 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: >So, you believe that the Kurds gassed themselves to make Saddam look bad? >Or perhaps the Iranians invaded and gassed them? Actually, every indication is that the Iranians gassed them. The event occurred in 1988, the last year of the Iran-Iraq war. The New York Times and other sources have reported that that particular kind of gas was never sold to Iraq, only Iran, and that when reports of the gassing reached Hussein he was as surprised as anyone. (He may have been pleased or indifferent, but reliable sources -- plus he himself -- have said he was surprised.) The U.S. and its allies sold the gas to Iran so I am sure our people knew when and where it came from. It is not the sort of thing the Iraqis could have stolen during the war. It takes considerable expertise to store and deploy it without killing yourself. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 14 10:04:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAEI0wRM009692; Mon, 14 Nov 2005 10:04:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAEHU6aY017585; Mon, 14 Nov 2005 09:30:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 09:30:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <03be01c5e93c$03def4a0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: Cometary comentary Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 08:54:01 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <_QA4H.A.fSE.bmMeDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64420 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On the hydrino forum there had been some silly speculation on the possibility that fresh water - being such a precious resource, might be threatened if hydrinos (or the hydrogen economy) ever became a realization. Presumably this would be in the situation where 10 billion humans are using nothing but hydrogen and hydrinos for power. This is the comment that triggered my post below it: JD: "Well, if the hydrino pans out (and I do not believe it will) , we don't really have to worry about "burning" up all our water. It appears water is replenished continually." http://smallcomets.physics.uiowa.edu/faq.htmlx Below is my comment, which may be on interest to some here for its implications about an "active" or metastable population of deuterinos - that is, deuterium in a redundant ground state. If Mills is correct - about the rate of hydrino formation in the solar corona, given that the Oort cloud, the birthing-ground for comets - must have been collecting hydrino detritus from the sun for some 4.6 billion years, mas o menos...then what do these thousands of tons of daily comet-water have to tell us additionally? ... the mass of every comet should contain a substantial content of hydrinos, no? Perhaps the best evidence for the putative hydrino is cosmological - and the comet itself may bolster that evidence, with a secondary and surprising follow-on implication. This fits in with the recent treads on the unlikelihood of any molecular compounding (other than the di-hydrino, in the absence of Robin's cationic bonding candidates), then the di-hydrino must be the best option, no? Given the supposedly high density of a di-hydrino, then, perhaps they are the 'nucleating agent' around which the comet-ice forms initially. If the average hydrino in the Oort cloud has a "shrinkage" level of n=3, then the di-hydrino should have a density about the same as uranium. That is, if the logical assumption of mass-per-unit-volume still applies - and why should it not apply? There are some problems with the standard explanation for comets - esp. the tail of same. The tail of a small comet can stretch out for 100 million miles long, and it appears (to a minority of astronomers) to have more "glow" than it should for that small amount of scattered ice.... IF that is, the comet were 'only' reflecting sunlight at those extreme distances (4AU is where the strong glow starts). When the nucleus of the comet is frozen solid, of course, it can only be seen only by reflected sunlight -- so comets are basically invisible. There are thought to be "dirty snow balls" composed of ice and dust. If the "dust" is predominantly the dense di-hydrinos however, this might explain some of the curiosities about the comet... if that is, the hydrino-component of comets is induced to shrink further on encountering the solar wind, creating its own UV. The tail of the comet ALWAYS points away from the sun, even at 4AU and the solar wind must be more intense at those distances than commonly appreciated. That relatively intense solar wind could be responsible for triggering further hydrino-shrinkage - because we know the glow seen has a UV origin (from its spectrum). The dust in the coma does reflect sunlight, when closer in, but the coma is said to absorb enough solar ultraviolet at 4 AU to ionize gases which fluoresce, much like the gas in a fluorescent light bulb. Could - instead - it be the UV is at least partially self-generated? The material in the comet, must be more "active" than just 'ice' for the small amount of solar UV at 4 AU, to ionize some of it, perhaps. There is also other evidence which leads the contrarian to believe that the comet could contain "active" material: the Tunguska Event of 1908. Yes, you can kludge the numbers together to fit a scenario of a very large 'normal' comet being responsible - but none such comet was not seen prior to the event. Anyway, there is one further item of interest - should the cosmological evidence in the features of a comet (for the putative hydrino) be convincing- and that secondary and surprising follow-on implication is of course: those thousands of 10-20 ton small comets mentioned in the site above, which have supplied earth with much of its water over cosmological time have loaded our oceans with the "dirt" as well. The implication is that there should be a substantial population of "natural" or sun-derived hydrinos in the environment - although given the (probable) extremely high density of these di-hydrinos, they would not be easy to find, except perhaps in some minerals. They should likely accumulate on the ocean bottom, however, and if I knew how to test for them, who knows? I have sliced open one of the manganese nodules in my collection and it IS strongly fluorescent. Jones BTW to go even further out on the implications/speculations limb... (and given this post was entitled 'much ado about nothing') these manganese nodules are thought to have a biogenic origin. That could tell us something else if they do contain hydrinos - as we know that most of the organisms associated with their formation are themselves fluorescent. That could be the connection with the solar di-hydrino which gets deposited in the oceans over billions of years. Could life-forms at these great depths have evolved to use this constant resource of hydrinos for purposes of promoting fluorescence? ... I am assuming of course that hydrinos would somehow promote fluorescence, but this could be false and 'more ado about nothing.' To go even further out - deuterinos. Could they be turning up in a small population in CF experiments - not in the heavy water but instead in the palladium and/or the electrolyte? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 14 10:40:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAEIdV7O004431; Mon, 14 Nov 2005 10:39:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAEIbhUF003155; Mon, 14 Nov 2005 10:37:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 10:37:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <03f201c5e948$aee04e60$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <411-2200511114151925950 earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Focus Fusion Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 10:24:42 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_03EF_01C5E905.A03EB6A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64423 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_03EF_01C5E905.A03EB6A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankRichard and Fred, Eric Lerner's comment that reaction rates at 200keV for p,B11 is nearly = 4 times higher thna for p,Li is something I am finding hard to believe. Is there any citation for this - or is it from his own experimental = work? Joens ------=_NextPart_000_03EF_01C5E905.A03EB6A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Richard and Fred,
 
Eric Lerner's comment that reaction rates at 200keV for p,B11 is = nearly 4=20 times higher thna for p,Li is something I am finding hard to = believe.
 
Is there any citation for this - or is it from his own experimental = work?
 
Joens
------=_NextPart_000_03EF_01C5E905.A03EB6A0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 14 12:13:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAEKCv3Q013926; Mon, 14 Nov 2005 12:13:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAEKCsvo013856; Mon, 14 Nov 2005 12:12:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 12:12:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051114145941.04317af0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 15:02:35 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: OFF TOPIC Good news about bird flu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <927JhB.A.HYD.E_OeDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64424 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I mentioned the other day some studies indicate that people in China and elsewhere have antibodies to H5N1. This is good news. It means the disease has already spread more widely in the human population than previously thought, meaning it is not as dangerous as previously thought. See: http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/11/08/news/birds.php "Some experts like Peter Palese of the Mount Sinai School of Medicine in New York said the H5N1 viruses are a false alarm. He notes that studies of serum collected in 1992 from people in rural China indicated that millions there had antibodies to the H5N1 strain. That means they had been infected with an H5N1 bird virus and recovered, apparently without incident." - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 14 12:19:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAEKITYf018423; Mon, 14 Nov 2005 12:18:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAEKIEDI018141; Mon, 14 Nov 2005 12:18:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 12:18:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT: The French Connection Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 07:17:20 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20051107170214.72F413D0C xprdmailfe10.nwk.excite.com> <4fdvm1l8k6fuu59qba9a5upofejrpjbeu3@4ax.com> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta02ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.59.28] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Mon, 14 Nov 2005 20:17:20 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id jAEKHRXb017543 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64425 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to thomas malloy's message of Mon, 14 Nov 2005 10:45:13 -0600: Hi, [snip] >>In reply to thomas malloy's message of Fri, 11 Nov 2005 02:23:40 >>-0600: >>Hi, >>[snip] >>>>Note that the French didn't actually *betray* anyone over Iraq, >>> >>>Really, what about the Iraqi people? They got screwed over in >>>numerous ways. The French had their fingers in the oil for food >>>scandal. They were cutting lucrative deals with Sadam and happily >>>burning the oil. >> >>According to the fake documents planted in Baghdad after the >>invasion. Why do I think the documents are fake?..because they >>read like a who's-who of the people the current US administration >>doesn't like. > > >So, you believe that the Kurds gassed themselves to make Saddam look >bad? Or perhaps the Iranians invaded and gassed them? What about the >mass graves? more mass suicide? How about the wedding parties where >the bride was raped and the groom shot if he objected? More attempts >to make Saddam look bad? The Iraqi Government employment documents, >in which the man's job description was "taker of the honor of women", >another fake? I was referring to the oil for food "scandal" documents. I think there is plenty of eye witness testimony to support the fact that Saddam was a tyrant. >I love to debate. The UN has carried corruption to new heights. On the contrary, there is very little corruption in the UN (not much to gain), but a huge song and dance about it. However it doesn't hold a candle to the corruption in the US government, which the song and dance is designed to distract peoples attention from. [snip] >>1) Iraq is almost certainly better off without Saddam, but the >>world as a whole almost certainly worse off as a consequence of >>the *increase* in animosity among Muslims world wide, brought on >>by the war. > >I don't understand how, having previously declared jihad (holy war) >against another group of people, you can possibly increase animosity. The fact that you (and apparently many like you) don't understand it, is the main reason it's a problem. The US is seen by many around the world as greedy and imperialistic. The (oil) war in Iraq is seen as confirmation of this, and used as a means of increasing recruitment to terrorist organizations. > >>2) Saddam could have been disposed of without going to war. >>However the US administration wanted a war. >>Regards, > >Yah, and who do you think would have deposed him if we hadn't, the Since the UN would have been incapable, NATO might have been a good cover for action by the US, however not by going to war. A small group of highly trained specialists, should have been able to do the job, without engaging whole nations in bloody war. Removal of Saddam would likely have resulted in a civil war within Iraq, but that's essentially what you have now anyway. The difference is that in that case the US wouldn't be losing thousands of its own people, and of course there would be no guarantee of a puppet government in Iraq resulting from it. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 14 12:36:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAEKZefu010090; Mon, 14 Nov 2005 12:35:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAEKZBjF009577; Mon, 14 Nov 2005 12:35:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 12:35:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cometary comentary Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 07:34:19 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <6rshn1d02j1d489dr86gt9j88tqg5bac06 4ax.com> References: <03be01c5e93c$03def4a0$6401a8c0 NuDell> In-Reply-To: <03be01c5e93c$03def4a0$6401a8c0 NuDell> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta03ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.59.28] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Mon, 14 Nov 2005 20:34:19 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id jAEKYTLd009073 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64426 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Mon, 14 Nov 2005 08:54:01 -0800: Hi, [snip] >On the hydrino forum there had been some silly speculation on the >possibility that fresh water - being such a precious resource, >might be threatened if hydrinos (or the hydrogen economy) ever >became a realization. Presumably this would be in the situation >where 10 billion humans are using nothing but hydrogen and >hydrinos for power. It is indeed silly. Hydrino power would allow humanity to distil as much fresh water as it needed. If we used up only 1% of the oceans, and continued to consume energy at the current rate, and if the hydrogen only underwent a single shrinkage to H[n=1/2] we would still have 11 million years worth of energy, which might even be long enough to get hot fusion working. ;) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 14 14:54:42 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAEMs4gt024502; Mon, 14 Nov 2005 14:54:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAEMs1k3024444; Mon, 14 Nov 2005 14:54:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 14:54:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Jed Predicting a gradual extinction of Cold Fusion X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 909b8a8ff0cae19159d456a4b333f05c Reply-To: michael.foster excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20051114225334.8BF72B6F1 xprdmailfe20.nwk.excite.com> Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 17:53:34 -0500 (EST) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64427 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ed wrote: > An interesting graph. However, the scatter > in the data creates an uncertainty that makes > a constant interest equally likely. Based on > a constant interest, the average is 79 ± 14, > with ICCF-1 and ICCF-3 being outliers at both > extremes. I have no idea what Jed is predicting; but trying to extrapolate data such as these on such a complicated subject would seem to me to be interesting but meaningless. It may simply mean that the original participants in the conference are lessening their activities over time. Or it may mean that they are dying out. Or it may mean absolutely nothing, because those of us who do independent CF research aren't publishing anything on account of the lack of intellectual property protection. M. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 14 15:09:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAEN8oOe032370; Mon, 14 Nov 2005 15:09:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAEN8m25032345; Mon, 14 Nov 2005 15:08:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 15:08:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051114180135.05765ce0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 18:07:55 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Jed Predicting a gradual extinction of Cold Fusion In-Reply-To: <20051114225334.8BF72B6F1 xprdmailfe20.nwk.excite.com> References: <20051114225334.8BF72B6F1 xprdmailfe20.nwk.excite.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <3rnzoB.A.Q5H.AkReDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64428 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michael Foster wrote: >It may simply mean that the original participants in the conference are >lessening their activities over time. Or it may mean that they are dying out. I know what has happened to the original participants. I am in contact with most of the ones who are still alive. They have retired or died. >Or it may mean absolutely nothing, because those of us who do independent >CF research aren't publishing anything on account of the lack of >intellectual property protection. I doubt that. I think I would hear about most research sooner or later, even if the author does not publish. I do know several researchers who do not publish. Furthermore, in Japan, China and Italy, researchers do publish and they do have intellectual property protection. Yet the numbers are declining in these countries as well. I am now preparing a 25 page paper by Iyengar et al. (It is almost done . . . just a few more figures to clean up.) It shows that in India there was an enormous infusion of interest in the subject in 1989 and 1990, and many good experiments were performed and published. Unfortunately, there was enormous opposition, and all the researchers who did the experiments have now either retired or died. Nearly all cold fusion researchers were senior scientists back in 1989. They were the only ones who had the wherewithal to do the experiment. If a younger researcher had tried to do an experiment -- or even to discuss experiments and express support for them -- his career would have ended abruptly. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 14 17:25:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAF1OfQf017941; Mon, 14 Nov 2005 17:24:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAF1OeVJ017907; Mon, 14 Nov 2005 17:24:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 17:24:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=DXWGBFO22EBJlkNYxQw8GvXXRIwmfVTDDZ1LuMC0Ms/SrkMlTQsj7p/dy0h92L8C; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:User-Agent:References:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Disposition:Message-Id:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT: The French Connection Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 20:42:33 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <20051107170214.72F413D0C xprdmailfe10.nwk.excite.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200511142042.33095.rockcast earthlink.net> X-ELNK-Trace: 161777525297e62b1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec791c7ebb547662012bfd64a581c8cb65da350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 71.115.182.204 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64429 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: IMHO, lots of people had money to be made. Consider that before the conflict (Sir Bush is committing an unlawful act by usurping the powers of Congress in declaring war without their resolution so I refuse to call it a real war), we got no oil from Iraq. Now we import 4 percent of our national needs from that country. Now one need'nt look far from the white house to find the long nose and bald head of the man that is making tons of money from this. Many Russians and French had contracts in hand with Sadaam and are now out in the cold. This would be fertile ground for an investigation by the next president if he is a democrat. If there is real fraud and the next president is a republican, then look for a presidential pardon of all involved as prima facie evidence......that is all involved who are not deemed as acceptable losses by the pardoners. Some others needing pardons but not having wealth or something to lose might just 'die in a helicopter accident'. Second, the real reason for the war will prove eventually not to be WMD, but money. Sadaam was left in power probably because of promises to pay certain parties 'aggrieved financially' in the first go round. He subsequently double crossed the so called victors. Our troops were really mercenaries paid a salary from our governments while the real money was paid separately. probably to some members of our ruling leadership and other ruling leaderships by so far unnamed entities probably including the Kuwaiti Sultan. The miracle is how this remained a secret for so long. Somebody is going to tell, sometime, unless all the 'undependable' witnesses are deceased. O yes, the fig leaf was that the benefactor governments like Kuwait were going to come up with funds for the war.... Nobody is going to believe that no other money was paid..........to somebody! Then to make a long story short, it was off to fight again. The sultans had face to save and 'Dubya' was the cat's paw to 'git 'er done!'. Standing Bear On Monday 14 November 2005 11:45, thomas malloy wrote: > >In reply to thomas malloy's message of Fri, 11 Nov 2005 02:23:40 > >-0600: > >Hi, > >[snip] > > > >>>Note that the French didn't actually *betray* anyone over Iraq, > >> > >>Really, what about the Iraqi people? They got screwed over in > >>numerous ways. The French had their fingers in the oil for food > >>scandal. They were cutting lucrative deals with Sadam and happily > >>burning the oil. > > > >According to the fake documents planted in Baghdad after the > >invasion. Why do I think the documents are fake?..because they > >read like a who's-who of the people the current US administration > >doesn't like. > > So, you believe that the Kurds gassed themselves to make Saddam look > bad? Or perhaps the Iranians invaded and gassed them? What about the > mass graves? more mass suicide? How about the wedding parties where > the bride was raped and the groom shot if he objected? More attempts > to make Saddam look bad? The Iraqi Government employment documents, > in which the man's job description was "taker of the honor of women", > another fake? > > >>>A vote in the Security Council is democracy in action. Sometimes > >>>it doesn't go your way. Get used to it. > >> > >>The UN is a debating society, and a rather ineffectual one at that. > > > >All large human gatherings end up being debating societies, it's > >human nature. > > I love to debate. The UN has carried corruption to new heights. They > are every bureaucratic nightmare on steroids. > > >>They screwed the Iraqi people even more than the French with oil for > >>food, If I had my way, America would with draw it's membership and > >>financial support from the UN. What kind of a fool would allow Sudan > >>to chair the Human Rights Commission? > > > >This is a good point. > > Thank you > > >>>The real problem is that the US is all for majority rule, as long > >>>as it is part of the majority, but when the shoe is on the other > >> > >>You conveniently ignore that Sadam had, and used WMD. The UN gave him > >>orders to account for certain materials and he ignored them. > > > >http://www.arabicnews.com/ansub/Daily/Day/020921/2002092124.html > > > >>We > >>decided that the world would be better off with one less tin horn > >>dictator, and IMHO it is. > > > >1) Iraq is almost certainly better off without Saddam, but the > >world as a whole almost certainly worse off as a consequence of > >the *increase* in animosity among Muslims world wide, brought on > >by the war. > > I don't understand how, having previously declared jihad (holy war) > against another group of people, you can possibly increase animosity. > > >2) Saddam could have been disposed of without going to war. > >However the US administration wanted a war. > >Regards, > > Yah, and who do you think would have deposed him if we hadn't, the > UN? The Arab League? Both groups had members who were too busy lining > their pockets with the proceeds of the oil for food program to let > something like that happen. > > > > > --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- > http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 14 17:33:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAF1Wc7U021731; Mon, 14 Nov 2005 17:32:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAF1Wbe8021718; Mon, 14 Nov 2005 17:32:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 17:32:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=KwhsW0waKJnvkcQ43OQAZEN5si7twgwAhDwtsNsmhbh7+CYPQusNIJU7WJ8TGQqx; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:User-Agent:References:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Disposition:Message-Id:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Good news about bird flu Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 20:50:31 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051114145941.04317af0 pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20051114145941.04317af0 pop.mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200511142050.31164.rockcast earthlink.net> X-ELNK-Trace: 161777525297e62b1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79d0dbdd259aa723c11bf7bcf8490f3c50350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 71.115.182.204 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64430 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Monday 14 November 2005 15:02, Jed Rothwell wrote: > I mentioned the other day some studies indicate that people in China and > elsewhere have antibodies to H5N1. This is good news. It means the disease > has already spread more widely in the human population than previously > thought, meaning it is not as dangerous as previously thought. See: > > http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/11/08/news/birds.php > > "Some experts like Peter Palese of the Mount Sinai School of Medicine in > New York said the H5N1 viruses are a false alarm. He notes that studies of > serum collected in 1992 from people in rural China indicated that millions > there had antibodies to the H5N1 strain. That means they had been infected > with an H5N1 bird virus and recovered, apparently without incident." > > - Jed That is good news, maybe those antibodies are similar to those necessary to fight the current strain. Also, if one only read the up to now current news about this, its fatality rate of over fifty percent of those contracting it would mean a global catastrophe of over 3,000,000,000 dead. We would not be able to bury them fast enough and great holes would be ripped in the fabric of the interdependant nature of our global society. Standing Bear From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 14 17:47:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAF1ku4p027026; Mon, 14 Nov 2005 17:47:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAF1kt0D026999; Mon, 14 Nov 2005 17:46:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 17:46:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001e01c5e986$5f01f360$b3027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Cc: "Eric Lerner" References: <411-2200511114151925950 earthlink.net> <03f201c5e948$aee04e60$6401a8c0@NuDell> Subject: Re: Focus Fusion Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 19:46:16 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001B_01C5E954.13BDD5E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.2 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,HTML_MESSAGE, J_CHICKENPOX_12,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64431 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C5E954.13BDD5E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankJones, I e-mailed Eric requesting that he join the Vortex-L group as Robin = suggested. Studying his website focus fusion indicates he has an active = work in progress and I feel all would like to read his views if he = choses to come in. Richard ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Jones Beene=20 To: vortex-l eskimo.com=20 Sent: Monday, November 14, 2005 12:24 PM Subject: Re: Focus Fusion Richard and Fred, Eric Lerner's comment that reaction rates at 200keV for p,B11 is = nearly 4 times higher thna for p,Li is something I am finding hard to = believe. Is there any citation for this - or is it from his own experimental = work? Joens ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C5E954.13BDD5E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Jones,
I e-mailed Eric requesting that he join the = Vortex-L=20 group as Robin suggested. Studying his website focus fusion indicates he = has an=20 active work in progress and I feel all would like to read his views if = he choses=20 to come in.
Richard
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Jones Beene=20
Sent: Monday, November 14, 2005 = 12:24=20 PM
Subject: Re: Focus Fusion

Richard and Fred,
 
Eric Lerner's comment that reaction rates at 200keV for p,B11 is = nearly 4=20 times higher thna for p,Li is something I am finding hard to=20 believe.
 
Is there any citation for this - or is it from his own = experimental=20 work?
 
Joens
------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C5E954.13BDD5E0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 14 18:30:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAF2TjtG024426; Mon, 14 Nov 2005 18:30:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAF2Thao024402; Mon, 14 Nov 2005 18:29:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 18:29:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <13278049.1132021768381.JavaMail.root mswamui-andean.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 21:29:28 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Good news about bird flu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64432 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Standing Bear writes: "Also, if one only read the up to now current news about this, its fatality rate of over fifty percent of those contracting it would mean a global catastrophe of over 3,000,000,000 dead." I believe that is impossible. First, not all of the population will be infected. The 1918 pandemic infected about a quarter of the population. Second, influenza symptoms are quick, unlike something like AIDS. An influenza that kills half the victims will die out. It is self-quenching. But diseases rapidly evolve to become less virulent, and less dangerous to the carrier. (A disease that does not do that goes extinct.) The danger point will come when more patients survive long enough to spread the disease. I think roughly 5% or 10% would be the cut-off point, when more than one person would be infected by each carrier before the carrier dies or recovers. The bubonic plague was spread by rats and mice, not people. It does not kill the carriers, as far as I know. So even though it killed as many as half the people in some places it did not go extinct. It still exists. A repeat of the 1918 virus, assuming no advanced medical care or anti-viral medication is available, would kill roughly 150 million people. That is more or less the situation today: the vast majority of the people in world today have no better medical care than they did in 1918. In fact health care has gotten worse in many third world countries. In first world countries many fewer would die at first until we run out of hospital beds, equipment, antibiotics (to combat the bacteria that invades tissue weakened by virus), anti-viral medicine and so on. Overall, I think the worst-case scenarios run from 100 million to 600 million worldwide, but not as high as 3 billion. In another 30 to 60 years, we will probably develop much better methods of detecting diseases, and designing and fabricating vaccines. We will be able to stop an influenza epidemic in real time. That is, we will learn to make 100 million doses of vaccine in a few weeks with something like bioengineered yeast. Now it takes months or years, using fertilized eggs. I doubt that infectious diseases will ever disappear, but they will become a minor problem, not a threat to civilization. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 14 18:45:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAF2iXKC030053; Mon, 14 Nov 2005 18:44:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAF2iXD5030046; Mon, 14 Nov 2005 18:44:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 18:44:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Focus Fusion Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 13:44:11 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <411-2200511114151925950 earthlink.net> <03f201c5e948$aee04e60$6401a8c0@NuDell> <001e01c5e986$5f01f360$b3027841@xptower> In-Reply-To: <001e01c5e986$5f01f360$b3027841 xptower> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.59.28] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Tue, 15 Nov 2005 02:44:10 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id jAF2iFc8029943 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64433 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to RC Macaulay's message of Mon, 14 Nov 2005 19:46:16 -0600: Hi, [snip] > Eric Lerner's comment that reaction rates at 200keV for p,B11 is nearly 4 times higher thna for p,Li is something I am finding hard to believe. > > Is there any citation for this - or is it from his own experimental work? [snip] One may find lots of reaction rates at http://www.phy.ornl.gov/astrophysics/data/cf88/nuclei.html with a graphical interface at http://www.phy.ornl.gov/astrophysics/data/cf88/nuclei.html . For Li7 -> 2He4 see http://www.phy.ornl.gov/astrophysics/data/cf88/plot/react34.gif and for B11 -> 3He4 see http://www.phy.ornl.gov/astrophysics/data/cf88/plot/react57.gif Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 15 01:29:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAF9SxOJ020068; Tue, 15 Nov 2005 01:29:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAF9Sq9F019991; Tue, 15 Nov 2005 01:28:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 01:28:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=hy0d4LH5JwW7a+RuFDXasKCvNmigtBeewml+z15WWp4IPadyeqDlRG6r5rVk92SD; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220051121582650100 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Focus Fusion Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 02:26:50 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940fb8fb992f9db4da2921048c479a51e8e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.160 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64434 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Robin wrote: > Jones Beene wrote: > > > Eric Lerner's comment that reaction rates at 200keV for p,B11 is nearly 4 > > times higher than for p,Li is something I am finding hard to believe. > Reaction Cross Section for P-Li7 http://www.phy.ornl.gov/astrophysics/data/cf88/plot/react34.gif Reaction Cross Section for P-B11 http://www.phy.ornl.gov/astrophysics/data/cf88/plot/react57.gif At first glance it looks like the cross sections are close to the same. IOW, the 3/5 Li7/B11 coulomb barrier potential ratio Z1*Z2*kq^2/d^2 approximates the 5/11 proton/nucleon ratio because of target atom inertia ? Untangle that one for me. :-) Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Robin wrote:
 
> Jones Beene wrote:
>
> >  Eric Lerner's comment that reaction rates at 200keV for p,B11 is nearly 4
> > times higher than for p,Li is something I am finding hard to believe.
>
 
Reaction Cross Section for P-Li7
 
 
Reaction Cross Section for P-B11
 
 
At first glance it looks like the cross sections are close to the same.
 
IOW, the 3/5  Li7/B11 coulomb barrier  potential ratio  Z1*Z2*kq^2/d^2 
approximates the 5/11 proton/nucleon ratio because of target atom inertia ?
 
Untangle that one for me.   :-)
 
Fred
 
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 15 02:26:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAFAPXgo008243; Tue, 15 Nov 2005 02:25:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAFAPVUR008233; Tue, 15 Nov 2005 02:25:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 02:25:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Message-ID: <4379B784.6090209 iinet.net.au> Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 21:25:08 +1100 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP's patent References: <6.2.3.4.2.20051111203750.04dbe048 pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64435 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: There's only one way to turn a lone superpower into an exSuperpower and Dr Bob Parks applying the weapon skillfully. He'll destroy America's future in his blind effort to protect His idea of Science. The Unibomber, Ted Kaczynski, killed a few people in his letter bombs in the name of preventing scientific change and modernity; yet Dr Park in a few short years has fought the future more professionally than any I have seen. I think Boris Volfson does have an interesting drive but the patent indicated that he has an incomplete understanding of Dr Podkletnov's work. In my opinion it is a usable space drive but Boris will find that when he puts his drive into first gear it will go backwards and reverse makes it go forwards. He'll also discover that thrust is proportional to the mass of the matter forward of the plate. The vector component of the field that goes out to the sides of the curved superconductor will be wasted. In other words he has found a good design for energizing the superconductor but needs to look at the later papers Dr Podkletnov published. In my opinion. It is not gravity screening. Its a ZPF lens/ laser. The energy density of ZPF is 10^93 j/cc [Wheeler in Gravity][10 to the 93 power]. Focus just a fraction and you can push matter around. Dr Park is, as usual, assuming he's accounted for every joule in the universe when in reality he's only counting the ripples on the surface of an ocean of energy. There's also a striking similarity in Boris Volfson's design to John Searl's claimed drive effects. But John Searl's rings, ~read "superconductors" when chilled~ are pointing out not up??? thomas malloy wrote: >> Vortexians; > > > > Pat Bailey has brought this most regrettable turn of events to my > attention. The evil Dr. Park has succeeded in damming up the river of > human progress, let us hope that this is just temporary. > > I just noticed that the old devil has seen to shoot off his mouth on > anti gravity machines too. If canceling gravity required more energy > than was released by the fall of the object back to the earth, than it > wouldn't be free energy. > >> Black Light Power has had it’s granted US Patent revoked >> And all of their other applications blocked >> Because >> Their explanation is different than the 1930’s view of the atomic >> model of the hydrogen atom. >> >> To me, it all just means that “It is impossible” and “You can’t do it” >> So I can in another country >> And get the business before you… >> Naw naw… >> >> [Should’a used a Trade Secret, like Coca Cola… >> US Patent Applications get CLASSIFIED.] >> >> PB. >> >> http://www.sciencedaily.com/upi/index.php?feed=Science&article=UPI-1-20051109-13140400-bc-us-antigravity.xml >> >> Patent issued for anti-gravity device >> WASHINGTON, Nov. 9 (UPI) -- The U.S. patent office has reportedly >> granted a patent for an anti-gravity device -- breaking its rule to >> reject inventions that defy the laws of physics. >> >> The journal Nature said patent 6,960,975 was granted Nov. 1 to Boris >> Volfson of Huntington, Ind., for a space vehicle propelled by a >> superconducting shield that alters the curvature of space-time >> outside the craft in a way that counteracts gravity. >> >> One of the main theoretical arguments against anti-gravity is that it >> implies the availability of unlimited energy. >> >> "If you design an anti-gravity machine, you've got a perpetual-motion >> machine," Robert Park of the American Physical Society told Nature. > > Park said the action shows patent examiners are being duped by false > science. > >> >> Copyright 2005 by United Press International. All Rights Reserved. > > > > --- USFamily.Net - *$8.25/mo!* > -- Highspeed - *$19.99/mo!* --- > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 15 02:35:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAFAYu5T011726; Tue, 15 Nov 2005 02:35:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAFAYsTA011707; Tue, 15 Nov 2005 02:34:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 02:34:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=bAvP2/9NWM8plMKDXU1rUA7Roj63++giuy8Jq87sA+ii6pZpjy4zhOZShrwYpxCh; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220051121593342680 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Focus Fusion & Slingshot Effect Catalyst Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 03:33:42 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940837249c7c026141aac55d88909122a47350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.63 Resent-Message-ID: <0okhsD.A.22C.OnbeDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64436 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII The "Slingshot Effect" obtained by salting the "Billion Degree" plasma with a heavy atom (U238 or Zenon?) as well as using (Lithium Borohydride + PentaBorane (LiBH4 + BH5) might get a better ROI. This is similar to the effect of dropping a marble and golf ball (held together) onto the sidewalk and seeing the marble go several times the drop height. Three-body collision with the earth? Wear safety goggles if you try this! Correction: Coulomb barrier potential Z1*Z2*kq/d. Coulomb barrier repulsive force Z1*Z2*kq^2/d^2 Wear safety goggles if you try this! Fred ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 11/15/05 3:29:09 AM Subject: Re: Focus Fusion Robin wrote: > Jones Beene wrote: > > > Eric Lerner's comment that reaction rates at 200keV for p,B11 is nearly 4 > > times higher than for p,Li is something I am finding hard to believe. > Reaction Cross Section for P-Li7 http://www.phy.ornl.gov/astrophysics/data/cf88/plot/react34.gif Reaction Cross Section for P-B11 http://www.phy.ornl.gov/astrophysics/data/cf88/plot/react57.gif At first glance it looks like the cross sections are close to the same. IOW, the 3/5 Li7/B11 coulomb barrier potential ratio Z1*Z2*kq^2/d^2 approximates the 5/11 proton/nucleon ratio because of target atom inertia ? Untangle that one for me. :-) Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
The "Slingshot Effect" obtained by salting the "Billion Degree" plasma with
a heavy atom (U238 or Zenon?) as well as using (Lithium Borohydride + PentaBorane (LiBH4 + BH5)
might get a better ROI.
This is similar to the effect of dropping a marble and golf ball (held together) onto the sidewalk
and seeing the marble go several times the drop height. Three-body collision with the earth?
 
Wear safety goggles if you try this!
 
Correction:
Coulomb barrier potential Z1*Z2*kq/d.
Coulomb barrier repulsive force Z1*Z2*kq^2/d^2
 
Wear safety goggles if you try this!
 
Fred
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 11/15/05 3:29:09 AM
Subject: Re: Focus Fusion

Robin wrote:
 
> Jones Beene wrote:
>
> >  Eric Lerner's comment that reaction rates at 200keV for p,B11 is nearly 4
> > times higher than for p,Li is something I am finding hard to believe.
>
 
Reaction Cross Section for P-Li7
 
 
Reaction Cross Section for P-B11
 
 
At first glance it looks like the cross sections are close to the same.
 
IOW, the 3/5  Li7/B11 coulomb barrier  potential ratio  Z1*Z2*kq^2/d^2 
approximates the 5/11 proton/nucleon ratio because of target atom inertia ?
 
Untangle that one for me.   :-)
 
Fred
 
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 15 03:05:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAFB53Ko022923; Tue, 15 Nov 2005 03:05:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAFB51vG022903; Tue, 15 Nov 2005 03:05:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 03:05:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=Yl83OPDn+Ssz22YjRc0q1/7G5035NPuBOX5jukfD1DD/Sj1+bawAWU2NXRLvJKNu; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220051121510256840 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Focus Fusion & Slingshot Effect Catalyst Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 04:02:56 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940a654893b41d38bd6260482378ebe2dfd350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.21 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64437 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Also called the "Double Ball Drop". http://www.ap.stmarys.ca/demos/content/mechanics/double_ball_drop/double_ball_drop.html Sci American had an article on this in the 1980s. Fred ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 11/15/05 4:35:10 AM Subject: Re: Focus Fusion & Slingshot Effect Catalyst The "Slingshot Effect" obtained by salting the "Billion Degree" plasma with a heavy atom (U238 or Zenon?) as well as using (Lithium Borohydride + PentaBorane (LiBH4 + BH5) might get a better ROI. This is similar to the effect of dropping a marble and golf ball (held together) onto the sidewalk and seeing the marble go several times the drop height. Three-body collision with the earth? Wear safety goggles if you try this! Correction: Coulomb barrier potential Z1*Z2*kq/d. Coulomb barrier repulsive force Z1*Z2*kq^2/d^2 Wear safety goggles if you try this! Fred ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 11/15/05 3:29:09 AM Subject: Re: Focus Fusion Robin wrote: > Jones Beene wrote: > > > Eric Lerner's comment that reaction rates at 200keV for p,B11 is nearly 4 > > times higher than for p,Li is something I am finding hard to believe. > Reaction Cross Section for P-Li7 http://www.phy.ornl.gov/astrophysics/data/cf88/plot/react34.gif Reaction Cross Section for P-B11 http://www.phy.ornl.gov/astrophysics/data/cf88/plot/react57.gif At first glance it looks like the cross sections are close to the same. IOW, the 3/5 Li7/B11 coulomb barrier potential ratio Z1*Z2*kq^2/d^2 approximates the 5/11 proton/nucleon ratio because of target atom inertia ? Untangle that one for me. :-) Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Sci American had an article on this in the 1980s.
 
Fred
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 11/15/05 4:35:10 AM
Subject: Re: Focus Fusion & Slingshot Effect Catalyst

The "Slingshot Effect" obtained by salting the "Billion Degree" plasma with
a heavy atom (U238 or Zenon?) as well as using (Lithium Borohydride + PentaBorane (LiBH4 + BH5)
might get a better ROI.
This is similar to the effect of dropping a marble and golf ball (held together) onto the sidewalk
and seeing the marble go several times the drop height. Three-body collision with the earth?
 
Wear safety goggles if you try this!
 
Correction:
Coulomb barrier potential Z1*Z2*kq/d.
Coulomb barrier repulsive force Z1*Z2*kq^2/d^2
 
Wear safety goggles if you try this!
 
Fred
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 11/15/05 3:29:09 AM
Subject: Re: Focus Fusion

Robin wrote:
 
> Jones Beene wrote:
>
> >  Eric Lerner's comment that reaction rates at 200keV for p,B11 is nearly 4
> > times higher than for p,Li is something I am finding hard to believe.
>
 
Reaction Cross Section for P-Li7
 
 
Reaction Cross Section for P-B11
 
 
At first glance it looks like the cross sections are close to the same.
 
IOW, the 3/5  Li7/B11 coulomb barrier  potential ratio  Z1*Z2*kq^2/d^2 
approximates the 5/11 proton/nucleon ratio because of target atom inertia ?
 
Untangle that one for me.   :-)
 
Fred
 
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 15 03:43:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAFBhU6t006770; Tue, 15 Nov 2005 03:43:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAFBhTp8006752; Tue, 15 Nov 2005 03:43:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 03:43:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=ImxHz7lyT2sO9YTeP8fi1Jp2aM6cBdAK0bVZ5/HCsM+Yw4axy1w5d+NUWIDJNhzl; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200511215104216710 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Focus Fusion & Slingshot Effect Catalyst Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 04:42:16 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940be37c413a7f9169be1c13fe313188382350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.74 Resent-Message-ID: <85RsF.A.YpB.gnceDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64438 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Better Link. http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/Hbase/doubal.html "The rebound velocity of 3v for the small ball implies that its kinetic energy is nine times its incoming kinetic energy since the kinetic energy is proportional to the square of the velocity. Since the gravitational potential energy is proportional to the height and the kinetic energy is all converted to potential energy at the peak of the motion, it will rise to height 9h. " The Coulomb potential barrier at d = 1.0e-15 meters for P-11B is 7.2MeV. Divide that by nine and you get 800 KeV. :-) Fred Correction: Coulomb barrier potential Z1*Z2*kq/d. Coulomb barrier repulsive force Z1*Z2*kq^2/d^2 Fred ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 11/15/05 3:29:09 AM Subject: Re: Focus Fusion Robin wrote: > Jones Beene wrote: > > > Eric Lerner's comment that reaction rates at 200keV for p,B11 is nearly 4 > > times higher than for p,Li is something I am finding hard to believe. > Reaction Cross Section for P-Li7 http://www.phy.ornl.gov/astrophysics/data/cf88/plot/react34.gif Reaction Cross Section for P-B11 http://www.phy.ornl.gov/astrophysics/data/cf88/plot/react57.gif At first glance it looks like the cross sections are close to the same. IOW, the 3/5 Li7/B11 coulomb barrier potential ratio Z1*Z2*kq^2/d^2 approximates the 5/11 proton/nucleon ratio because of target atom inertia ? Untangle that one for me. :-) Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Better Link.
 
 
"The rebound velocity of 3v for the small ball implies that its kinetic energy is nine times its incoming kinetic energy since the kinetic energy is proportional to the square of the velocity. Since the gravitational potential energy is proportional to the height and the kinetic energy is all converted to potential energy at the peak of the motion, it will rise to height 9h. "
 
The Coulomb potential barrier at d = 1.0e-15 meters for P-11B is 7.2MeV.
 
Divide that by nine and you get 800 KeV.  :-)
 
Fred
Correction:
Coulomb barrier potential Z1*Z2*kq/d.
Coulomb barrier repulsive force Z1*Z2*kq^2/d^2
 
Fred
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 11/15/05 3:29:09 AM
Subject: Re: Focus Fusion

Robin wrote:
 
> Jones Beene wrote:
>
> >  Eric Lerner's comment that reaction rates at 200keV for p,B11 is nearly 4
> > times higher than for p,Li is something I am finding hard to believe.
>
 
Reaction Cross Section for P-Li7
 
 
Reaction Cross Section for P-B11
 
 
At first glance it looks like the cross sections are close to the same.
 
IOW, the 3/5  Li7/B11 coulomb barrier  potential ratio  Z1*Z2*kq^2/d^2 
approximates the 5/11 proton/nucleon ratio because of target atom inertia ?
 
Untangle that one for me.   :-)
 
Fred
 
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 15 05:43:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAFDhTMS002041; Tue, 15 Nov 2005 05:43:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAFDhRJ4002025; Tue, 15 Nov 2005 05:43:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 05:43:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 08:43:02 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7B801A27F6BBA-1828-9373 mblkn-m11.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d netscape.net References: <6.2.3.4.2.20051111203750.04dbe048 pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> <4379B784.6090209@iinet.net.au> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <4379B784.6090209 iinet.net.au> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 14738 Subject: Re: BLP's patent Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.129 X-Spam-Flag: NO Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id jAFDhBGf001790 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64439 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Wesley Bruce To: vortex-l eskimo.com Sent: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 21:25:08 +1100 Subject: Re: BLP's patent There's only one way to turn a lone superpower into an exSuperpower and Dr Bob Parks applying the weapon skillfully. He'll destroy America's future in his blind effort to protect His idea of Science. The Unibomber, Ted Kaczynski, killed a few people in his letter bombs in the name of preventing scientific change and modernity; yet Dr Park in a few short years has fought the future more professionally than any I have seen.  The Washington Post runs a weekly contest in its Style section called the "Style Invitational." The requirements this week were to use the two, words Lewinsky (The Intern) and Kaczynski (the Unabomber) in the same limerick. Remember, the following winning entries were printed in the newspaper. Third place: There once was a girl named Lewinsky Who played on a flute like Stravinsky 'Twas "Hail to the Chief" On this flute made of beef That stole the front page from Kaczynski. Second place: Said Clinton to young Ms. Lewinsky, "We don't want to leave clues like Kaczynski, Since you made such a mess, Use the hem of your dress And please wipe that stuff off your chinsky." And the winning entry: Lewinsky and Clinton have shown What Kaczynski must surely have known That an intern is better Than a bomb in a letter When deciding how best to be blown ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 15 06:02:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAFE1i45009842; Tue, 15 Nov 2005 06:01:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAFE1gg6009830; Tue, 15 Nov 2005 06:01:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 06:01:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=XUiC30zrChc9fp6TtwQHVSsXwuL41KBFZOydPPh0Yafr6rQx2gnSaawHhKq7amTy; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220051121513035510 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Do I Really Need To Know? Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 07:00:35 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940a44ac5dc49099899471f4c8411eb404d350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.127 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64440 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Based on the Double Ball Drop effect. http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/Hbase/doubal.html "The rebound velocity of 3v for the small ball implies that its kinetic energy is nine times its incoming kinetic energy since the kinetic energy is proportional to the square of the velocity. Since the gravitational potential energy is proportional to the height and the kinetic energy is all converted to potential energy at the peak of the motion, it will rise to height 9h." 1, That if I drop a Deuterated Palladium BB on the floor, will it trigger CF and explode? 2, Will a dropped steel BB emit electrons when it hits the floor? Just asking. :-) Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Based on the Double Ball Drop effect.
 
 
"The rebound velocity of 3v for the small ball implies that its kinetic energy is nine times its incoming kinetic energy since the kinetic energy is proportional to the square of the velocity. Since the gravitational potential energy is proportional to the height and the kinetic energy is all converted to potential energy at the peak of the motion, it will rise to height 9h."
 
1, That if I drop a Deuterated Palladium BB on the floor, will
     it trigger CF and explode?
2, Will a dropped steel BB emit electrons when it hits the floor?
 
Just asking.   :-)
 
Fred
 
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 15 07:09:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAFF8sbZ019018; Tue, 15 Nov 2005 07:09:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAFF8qWU018995; Tue, 15 Nov 2005 07:08:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 07:08:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051115095424.06363170 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 10:08:13 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Good news about bird flu In-Reply-To: <13278049.1132021768381.JavaMail.root mswamui-andean.atl.sa .earthlink.net> References: <13278049.1132021768381.JavaMail.root mswamui-andean.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64441 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I did not source my statements in that message. Sorry. These are my impressions from reading and talking to epidemiologists. I said the mortality rate cut off is "roughly 5% or 10%" but I could be wrong and I do not recall where I read that. There were exceptions in 1918 such as isolated Inuit villages where nearly everyone died. And who knows what modern mobility might do . . . I described: >. . . the cut-off point, when more than one person would be infected by >each carrier before the carrier dies or recovers. By "recovers" I mean the patient no longer infects other people. Here is a dramatic graph showing how quickly the 1918 pandemic spread and then vanished in one month, in October 1918 in Kansas: http://www.stanford.edu/group/virus/uda/flustat.html You can see the disease more or less wiped itself out. Here is an interesting article about new vaccination techniques now under development, such as "naked DNA" on a gold substrate. http://www.wired.com/news/medtech/0,1286,69556,00.html - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 15 08:23:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAFGMTha031918; Tue, 15 Nov 2005 08:22:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAFGMSN7031902; Tue, 15 Nov 2005 08:22:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 08:22:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 11:22:04 -0500 From: hohlrauml6d netscape.net Message-Id: <8C7B817D97B44FE-1828-9994 mblkn-m11.sysops.aol.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 14738 Subject: Widom & Larsen Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.129 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64442 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mr. Jones wrote: A most amazing pdf is mentioned here: http://www.arxiv.org/PS_cache/cond-mat/pdf/0505/0505026.pdf ...hmm... sour cream or butter? Soured milk, IMO. Neither this nor the later companion paper: http://www.arxiv.org/PS_cache/cond-mat/pdf/0509/0509269.pdf account for the observed producton of tritium or other transmutations. Also, the micrographs of the palladium surface indicate a violent reaction occurs just below the surface of the metal which is also inconsistent with the theory presented. These ideas: http://www.intalek.com/Index/Projects/Research/ColdElectricity.pdf are more in keeping with observations. ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 15 08:50:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAFGoCDF016523; Tue, 15 Nov 2005 08:50:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAFGoA35016470; Tue, 15 Nov 2005 08:50:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 08:50:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <008b01c5ea04$96546810$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <8C7B817D97B44FE-1828-9994 mblkn-m11.sysops.aol.com> Subject: Re: Widom & Larsen Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 08:49:46 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <4Nog4.A.MBE.CHheDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64443 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Hohlraum, You raise some interesting points related to bound electrons. I have wished for some time that Ken Shoulders would focus more on LENR effects, and on prototype energy conversion devices. OTOH, I'm not sure the two ideas (Ken's and this Widom paper) are as far apart as you are making them out to be. Jones BTW I like the moniker "Hohlraum" in the context of LENR, having gotten interested in the whole field of lower energy fusion, due to the work of Winterberg and ICF Hohlraums thirty years ago For those who are aren't muttersprachers - A hohlraum (cavity) is the German word used in inertial fusion for a small metal cylinder or container - which holds an ICF capsule or gas and is usually imploded by external energy. In fact, some forms of LENR have all the appearance of the macro-hohlraum configuration - reduced to micro-size. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2005 8:22 AM Subject: Widom & Larsen > Mr. Jones wrote: > > A most amazing pdf is mentioned here: > > http://www.arxiv.org/PS_cache/cond-mat/pdf/0505/0505026.pdf > > > > ...hmm... sour cream or butter? > > > > Soured milk, IMO. Neither this nor the later companion paper: > > http://www.arxiv.org/PS_cache/cond-mat/pdf/0509/0509269.pdf > > account for the observed producton of tritium or other > transmutations. Also, the micrographs of the palladium surface > indicate a violent reaction occurs just below the surface of the > metal which is also inconsistent with the theory presented. > > These ideas: > > http://www.intalek.com/Index/Projects/Research/ColdElectricity.pdf > > are more in keeping with observations. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 15 09:46:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAFHkIC4029746; Tue, 15 Nov 2005 09:46:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAFHkHbu029730; Tue, 15 Nov 2005 09:46:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 09:46:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 12:45:53 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7B8238F6A94DA-C2C-A574 mblkn-m06.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d netscape.net References: <8C7B817D97B44FE-1828-9994 mblkn-m11.sysops.aol.com> <008b01c5ea04$96546810$6401a8c0@NuDell> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <008b01c5ea04$96546810$6401a8c0 NuDell> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 14738 Subject: Re: Widom & Larsen Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.70 X-Spam-Flag: NO Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id jAFHk0C6029591 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64444 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mr. Beene, It is possible multiple reactions occur; however, the requirement for >90% loading of the xtal lattice is established. W&L's proposal is for a surface effect, no? BTW, the term 'hohlraum' preceeds the Shiva flashbulb. My interest relates to the usage by Stan Ulam. -----Original Message----- From: Jones Beene To: vortex-l eskimo.com Sent: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 08:49:46 -0800 Subject: Re: Widom & Larsen Hi Hohlraum,    You raise some interesting points related to bound electrons.  ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 15 12:30:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAFKU5oj027799; Tue, 15 Nov 2005 12:30:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAFK9tgl013584; Tue, 15 Nov 2005 12:09:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 12:09:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=G6pXAVog40swzu3uER2SE7JOQ7LpnDPcCrrdiYhYSWXG2mKotoUIwjkeKX5zCFepshXJFoAPv2nxUytlh/9nVKdP+Jk5AYdR2VxOOm6zBcAFFDMwMgXQWt+mWuVXIMgLASU1tnhIoLQXrY3K+TiUSfde120XU+koGRcpsNYFZss= Message-ID: <357653710511151209s902461bl5f44c7fe3f42a mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 21:09:21 +0100 From: David Jonsson To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Ramsauer effect in cold fusion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id jAFK9LIM013280 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64446 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi I wonder if the Ramsauer effect has been investigated as causing the particles to mix with other particles to get them so close as to cause nuclear reaction. David From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 15 12:30:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAFKU5ol027799; Tue, 15 Nov 2005 12:30:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAFK9fDm013451; Tue, 15 Nov 2005 12:09:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 12:09:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00d801c5ea20$71ff58a0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <8C7B817D97B44FE-1828-9994 mblkn-m11.sysops.aol.com> <008b01c5ea04$96546810$6401a8c0@NuDell> <8C7B8238F6A94DA-C2C-A574@mblkn-m06.sysops.aol.com> Subject: Re: Widom & Larsen Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 12:09:11 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <57Mk1.A.5RD.BCkeDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64445 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: >W&L's proposal is for a surface effect, no? OK there are several semantic issues here. W&L have propsed a specific mechanism, true, but that could be one of perhaps several - for low energy reactions, all arguably related to QM and quantum tunneling. Even if they believe theirs to be the only mechanism, we are not compelled to follow that closely in their thinking. Also as to "surface" this cannot be literal in that sense of a single atomic layer - as the mechanics of subsequent neutron abosorbtion would seem to demand some minimum thickness of interfacial metal. I would think that we should be talking in terms of near-surface "excitons" being the active structure for all of these mechanism which include perhaps one or two other QM mechanisms, perhaps acting in consort. Ockham be damned. Ockham is little more than an aesthetic principle anyway, and I find QM very anti-aesthetic from the git-go. An exciton would be smaller than a normal metal "grain" but still could be called a "surface" feature - perhaps going down a few hundred nm in thickness? What I like about the paper is the 'more general' ideas of 1) the 'heavy' electron, although I find Fred Sparbers concept for that item preferable to theirs...and the EVO even preferable to that if the circumstances permit, which often they do not - but indeed there could be those three concepts for a heavier temporal-lepton-conglomerate - in addition to the self-generated muon. 2) the energy deficient neutron Perhaps you have some alternative - or more specific objections to W&L, to share, along those lines? ...giving them the leeway of not being "either-or" or overly inclusive, that is.... Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 15 13:02:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAFL1cBh013538; Tue, 15 Nov 2005 13:01:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAFL1aoE013518; Tue, 15 Nov 2005 13:01:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 13:01:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=FfZlfsclJWw2V76hqv/O+BbbR+nL27r5PmTCAC+tA6SS4xHLxvBYfIq+K8Oy4GaO; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220051121519592110 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Hot Tungsten Filaments, Argon & Hot Hydrogen Atoms Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 13:59:21 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9403f7760becd88a9c6047afef3f4c95f29350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.165.198 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64447 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII According to the Double Ball Drop Phenomenon a hydrogen atom (~ 1.0% created by H2 on hot W) can undergo successive collisions of the Double Ball Drop type and achieve enormous velocities in a low pressure mix of H2 and Argon or such. No over unity heat involved though, unless it forms "Hydrinos" does some Cold Fusion tricks using Deuterium. Possible Neutron Source, Jones? The MAHG should produce them. http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/Hbase/doubal.html "The rebound velocity of 3v for the small ball implies that its kinetic energy is nine times its incoming kinetic energy since the kinetic energy is proportional to the square of the velocity. Since the gravitational potential energy is proportional to the height and the kinetic energy is all converted to potential energy at the peak of the motion, it will rise to height 9h" http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/kinetic/kintem.html "When you try to assess specific heat, you must account for all the energy possessed by the molecules, and the temperature as ordinarily measured does not account for molecular rotation and vibration." Don't account for the DBD effect either. Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

According to the Double Ball Drop Phenomenon a hydrogen atom
(~ 1.0% created by H2 on hot W) can undergo successive collisions of
the Double Ball Drop type and achieve enormous velocities in a low pressure
mix of H2 and Argon or such.  No over unity heat involved though, unless it
forms "Hydrinos" does some Cold Fusion tricks using Deuterium.
 
Possible Neutron Source, Jones?
 
The MAHG should produce them.
 
 
"The rebound velocity of 3v for the small ball implies that its kinetic energy is nine times its incoming kinetic energy since the kinetic energy is proportional to the square of the velocity. Since the gravitational potential energy is proportional to the height and the kinetic energy is all converted to potential energy at the peak of the motion, it will rise to height 9h"
 

"When you try to assess specific heat, you must account for all the energy possessed by the molecules, and the temperature as ordinarily measured does not account for molecular rotation and vibration."

Don't account for the DBD effect either.

Fred

 
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 15 16:28:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAG0Rs4B008865; Tue, 15 Nov 2005 16:28:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAG0Rqj1008837; Tue, 15 Nov 2005 16:27:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 16:27:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051115192405.059f8570 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 19:27:04 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: New: large, old paper by Iyengar et al. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_8797812==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64448 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_8797812==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed See: Iyengar, P.K. and M. Srinivasan. Overview of BARC Studies in Cold Fusion. in The First Annual Conference on Cold Fusion. 1990. University of Utah Research Park, Salt Lake City, Utah: National Cold Fusion Institute. http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/IyengarPKoverviewof.pdf This is important because it shows how much dynamic, promising research was going on in India from 1989 to the mid-90s. Unfortunately, nothing is happening there now, as far as I know. I have heard that after Iyengar and the others retired, the enemies of cold fusion moved in and took steps to prevent any more research. I did a lot of work to prepare this paper, so you folks better read it! - Jed --=====================_8797812==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" See:

Iyengar, P.K. and M. Srinivasan. Overview of BARC Studies in Cold Fusion. in The First Annual Conference on Cold Fusion. 1990. University of Utah Research Park, Salt Lake City, Utah: National Cold Fusion Institute.

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/IyengarPKoverviewof.pdf

This is important because it shows how much dynamic, promising research was going on in India from 1989 to the mid-90s. Unfortunately, nothing is happening there now, as far as I know. I have heard that after Iyengar and the others retired, the enemies of cold fusion moved in and took steps to prevent any more research.

I did a lot of work to prepare this paper, so you folks better read it!

- Jed
--=====================_8797812==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 15 18:44:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAG2hjCo009544; Tue, 15 Nov 2005 18:44:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAG2hhvA009526; Tue, 15 Nov 2005 18:43:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 18:43:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002101c5ea57$82b87c30$20037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051115192405.059f8570 pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: large, old paper by Iyengar et al. Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 20:43:20 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001E_01C5EA25.370E22D0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.7 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,HTML_40_50, HTML_MESSAGE,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: <2-im2.A.yUC.fzpeDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64449 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C5EA25.370E22D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jed , I sent a link to our high speed unit at the shop. A PFD file of = 2.74 mb is a little high for the boonies. Will read it manana. You are a wordsmith. In a few words would you give us your thoughts on = WHY?? the enemies of CF are such. What drives these people ? Hatred = alone cannot account for their energy and dedication . You have studied = this question at length and may have the best insight. Richard ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Jed Rothwell=20 To: vortex-L eskimo.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2005 6:27 PM Subject: New: large, old paper by Iyengar et al. See: Iyengar, P.K. and M. Srinivasan. Overview of BARC Studies in Cold = Fusion. in The First Annual Conference on Cold Fusion. 1990. University = of Utah Research Park, Salt Lake City, Utah: National Cold Fusion = Institute.=20 http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/IyengarPKoverviewof.pdf This is important because it shows how much dynamic, promising = research was going on in India from 1989 to the mid-90s. Unfortunately, = nothing is happening there now, as far as I know. I have heard that = after Iyengar and the others retired, the enemies of cold fusion moved = in and took steps to prevent any more research. I did a lot of work to prepare this paper, so you folks better read = it! - Jed ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C5EA25.370E22D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jed , I sent a link to our high speed = unit at the=20 shop.  A PFD file of 2.74 mb is a little high for the boonies. Will = read it=20 manana.
 
You are a wordsmith. In a few words = would you=20 give us your thoughts on WHY?? the enemies of CF are such. What drives = these=20 people ? Hatred alone cannot account for their energy and dedication . = You have=20 studied this question at length and may have the best = insight.
Richard
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Jed Rothwell
Sent: Tuesday, November 15, = 2005 6:27=20 PM
Subject: New: large, old paper = by Iyengar=20 et al.

See:

Iyengar, P.K. and M. Srinivasan. = Overview of=20 BARC Studies in Cold Fusion. in The First Annual Conference on = Cold=20 Fusion. 1990. University of Utah Research Park, Salt Lake City, = Utah:=20 National Cold Fusion Institute.

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/IyengarPKoverviewof.pdf
This=20 is important because it shows how much dynamic, promising research was = going=20 on in India from 1989 to the mid-90s. Unfortunately, nothing is = happening=20 there now, as far as I know. I have heard that after Iyengar and the = others=20 retired, the enemies of cold fusion moved in and took steps to prevent = any=20 more research.

I did a lot of work to prepare this paper, so = you folks=20 better read it!

- Jed
------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C5EA25.370E22D0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 16 07:11:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAGFAdnf030880; Wed, 16 Nov 2005 07:10:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAGFAakT030853; Wed, 16 Nov 2005 07:10:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 07:10:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051116095337.04c42a70 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 10:10:06 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: large, old paper by Iyengar et al. In-Reply-To: <002101c5ea57$82b87c30$20037841 xptower> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051115192405.059f8570 pop.mindspring.com> <002101c5ea57$82b87c30$20037841 xptower> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64450 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: RC Macaulay wrote: >Jed , I sent a link to our high speed unit at the shop. A PFD file of >2.74 mb is a little high for the boonies. Oops. I did not notice it came out so big. I will try to slim it down. >In a few words would you give us your thoughts on WHY?? the enemies of CF >are such. What drives these people ? Hatred alone cannot account for their >energy and dedication . You have studied this question at length and may >have the best insight. I think the best way to find out is to ask the skeptics themselves. Read the books by Huizenga and Hoffman, and the comments by the DoE review panel member #7, here: http://lenr-canr.org/Collections/DoeReview.htm#StormsRothwellCritique They say that they oppose cold fusion because they are sure it is false. They feel it violates basic laws of physics, it simply cannot be real, and it is a waste of time and resources to study such things. They react the way you or I would if someone proposed building a human-powered propeller-driven machine to fly to the moon. Srinivasan told me that the guy who crushed cold fusion research in India felt this way. In Japan a famous professor named Arima has been on the warpath against cold fusion from day one, and he has often used his influence to deny funding and attack researchers. He says the whole idea of cold fusion is preposterous and impossible and it should not be taken seriously for one second. I assume these people mean what they say. I have no reason to think they are being dishonest, or hiding their motivations. Some people have suggested that the opposition to cold fusion is coming from vested interests in the oil industry. I doubt that. My impression is that no one in the fossil fuel industry takes cold fusion seriously enough to oppress it. The only people with a vested interest in opposing cold fusion that I know of are the plasma fusion researchers at MIT. They are afraid that some of their research money will be diverted to cold fusion. They were livid with anger in March 1989. They planted stories in the newspapers, they ranted, they raved, they held a party to celebrate the death of cold fusion, they even reportedly called for the arrest and imprisonment of Fleischmann and Pons. However, the fundamental reason they oppose the research is that they think it is nonsense. If they thought it might be real they would try and do it themselves. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 16 08:41:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAGGfWoY017993; Wed, 16 Nov 2005 08:41:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAGGfTxY017956; Wed, 16 Nov 2005 08:41:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 08:41:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <01a401c5eacc$8a84e3c0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: Cathode (Cometary) Commentary Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 08:41:06 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64451 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The history of LENR is replete with anecdotal speculation about metal "impurities" being the distinguishing factor between "active" (or overunity) cathodes and those that are ineffective. Ed Storms has written an article which centers on the physical environment in which the LENR reactions occur, the so-called nuclear active environment (NAE) but he does not appear to address the issue of extreme minority impurities. http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/StormsEwhatcondit.pdf IF... some of the NAE effect is due to impurity elements which are present in less than the five nine category - i.e. 99.999% purity, then there is really not enough accurate information available in the literature, nor from the metal suppliers to know. In the case of the suppliers some of it appears to be disinformation. Following this posting, there will be even more possibilities in the range of speculation about minority impurities ;-) but such is the nature of discovery. Someone often must first present the "straw-man" before others can shoot him down... or dress him up. Candidate impurities for increasing nuclear activity, which could be found in the PPM range in LENR have included the usual suspects from hot fusion and fission technology: lithium, beryllium, boron, thorium U and trans-uraniacs, not to mention some of the Pd isotopes, especially the 102 and 110 which enclose gaps of isotopic instability. In general metallurgy, the "purity" of pure metals is not what is expected from the name, nor the expectations of organic chemistry - and the suppliers are often the biggest part of the problem - some have been notoriously evasive and imprecise when you want to focus on this issue. As with diamonds, rarity has its own special price and it is best not to let the consumer know certain facts (such as Russian machine made diamonds are indistinguishable from real ones by most all jewelers). Testing of purity can often lead to commercial disputes, since cost is a big issue. Even with mundane metals like iron, pure iron can cost thousands of times more. Iron, the most important commercial metal is almost never available "pure" form, that is - four-9 pure (99.99%) like copper or silver (higher electrical conductivity makes obtaining high purity easier). 98% pure Iron is a commodity and costs pennies per pound, but four-nine iron is exotic and several hundred of dollars per pound and up (way up), and even then is not 'that' pure. For instance, Goodfellows has 99.99% iron but if you figure out the cost per pound, it is in 6 figures. http://www.goodfellow.com/csp/active/gfhome.csp?Language=A The situation with cathodic materials is somewhat different as they are often higher in electrical conductivity than iron (which can serve as a good model for expected costs vs. purity) and easier to purify by electrolytic techniques. In general one can say that "impurities" in the range of 10-100 PPM will go largely undetected... yet... The energy-gain ratio (for a NAE) is on the order of 10,000,000 to one based on an alpha particle being produced, which will often be evidence of 10-30 MeV of energy having been deposited. Theoretically then if an impurity is found in an four-nine active cathode, in the range of 100 PPM, then it can supply a high COP for an extended period of time, even if it is eventually consumed - and it may never be consumed. Given this situation - if and when one of the large labs ever gets into the LENR fray - perhaps they will undertake the extremely difficult task of looking at the effect of all possible "intentional" additions in PPM impurities, but alas that may not be the answer if the "impurity" itself is one that is unknown to mainstream science. Actually many experimenters have already added these aforementioned "usual suspect" impurities in their experiments and seen mixed, but unconvincing (<100%), results, so there must be more to it - or that "unknown" impurity. Huh?? ...what impurity in metals could be unknown to mainstream science? You see, it took all this time just to set-up the possibility of the solar-derived hydrino - the one which was hypothesized to come to earth in comet-water. This is a different beast then you may have imagined it to be, based on Mills. I have included the relevant part of that post below but wanted to add this on. This material is based on the premise that Mills has gotten things only "half-right." Others have talked about the hydrino-deuterino being produced in-situ from the ongoing LENR electrolysis, but I am going to broaden that considerably by saying that in-situ hydrinos are not only unnecessary, they may be impossible, and even incompatible with net energy gain. Many have noticed that logically, hydrino production (if Mills experiments are accurate but not his theory) could be endothermic, he has never ruled that out (even when he has shown net OU). The non-radiative condition, then, is always indicative of energy being *taken in* by the tighter orbital. At any rate, if hydrinos exist but are endothermic to produce, then how and why do Mills experiments indicate OU? Partial answer: all of Mills' catalysts could actually contains PPM of solar-derived natural hydrinos, and in a fairly high shrinkage state (N= 1/4 to N=1/7 ??). This is actually an expect result of comets being formed in the Oort belt and being responsible for much of our ocean water. Perhaps Mills' catalysts are catalysts solely because they have a natural affinity to hydrinos, and were once dissolved in ocean water (where comet-derive hydrinos accumulated). Perhaps in experiments, these hydrinos are being 'expanded' by the experiment to produce OU. Some of that energy can then be consumed to produce other N=1/2 hydrinos, since the shrinkage and expansion situations are probably cross-catalytic... with the net result being that a potassium catalyst will give up its population of "natural" or solar derived hydrinos to the reaction, and at the same time create others endothermicly. In the end, after a period of K-electrolysis, Thermacore may have taken out (of a few grams of potassium electrolyte) a few micrograms of hydrinos, and maybe created twice as many lower shrinkage ones and some excess energy. Bottom line in simplistic terms: for every 100 natural solar created hydrinos taken out potassium at average shrinkage of 5 steps (N=1/5) we end up with 300 hydrinos of average shrinkage 2 and some excess energy. Even those lower energy (N=1/2) hydrinos can be "burned" but not by shrinking more, but by being reinflated where they give back the endothermic energy used to shrink them. If palladium likewise has an affinity for these primordial solar created hydrinos, then natural Pd may contain PPM quantities. A situation may be happening in LENR where the primordial hydrino within the metal lattice, the original n=1/7 hydrino will do one of two (or more) things. It can combine with a deuteron and produce helium-3 (or tritium with an immediate beta decay) or it can "strip" the deuteron neutron, or it can tunnel into the Pd and stimulate an alpha emission (resulting in some of the peculiar ash which is seen). Anyway to my way of thing NONE of these possibilities has ret been excluded by the literature of LENR or the hydrino, or by the Mills theory. There is your new straw man - for target practice. > If Mills is correct - about the rate of hydrino formation in the > solar corona, given that the Oort cloud, the birthing-ground for > comets - must have been collecting hydrino detritus from the sun > for some 4.6 billion years, mas o menos...then what do these > thousands of tons of daily comet-water have to tell us > additionally? > > ... the mass of every comet should contain a substantial content > of hydrinos, no? > > Perhaps the best evidence for the putative hydrino is > cosmological - and the comet itself may bolster that evidence, > with a secondary and surprising follow-on implication. > > This fits in with the recent treads on the unlikelihood of any > molecular compounding (other than the di-hydrino, in the absence > of Robin's cationic bonding candidates), then the di-hydrino > must be the best option, no? Given the supposedly high density > of a di-hydrino, then, perhaps they are the 'nucleating agent' > around which the comet-ice forms initially. If the average > hydrino in the Oort cloud has a "shrinkage" level of n=3, then > the di-hydrino should have a density about the same as uranium. > That is, if the logical assumption of mass-per-unit-volume still > applies - and why should it not apply? > > There are some problems with the standard explanation for > comets - esp. the tail of same. The tail of a small comet can > stretch out for 100 million miles long, and it appears (to a > minority of astronomers) to have more "glow" than it should for > that small amount of scattered ice.... IF that is, the comet > were 'only' reflecting sunlight at those extreme distances (4AU > is where the strong glow starts). > > When the nucleus of the comet is frozen solid, of course, it can > only be seen only by reflected sunlight -- so comets are > basically invisible. There are thought to be "dirty snow balls" > composed of ice and dust. If the "dust" is predominantly the > dense di-hydrinos however, this might explain some of the > curiosities about the comet... if that is, the hydrino-component > of comets is induced to shrink further on encountering the solar > wind, creating its own UV. > > The tail of the comet ALWAYS points away from the sun, even at > 4AU and the solar wind must be more intense at those distances > than commonly appreciated. That relatively intense solar wind > could be responsible for triggering further hydrino-shrinkage - > because we know the glow seen has a UV origin (from its > spectrum). The dust in the coma does reflect sunlight, when > closer in, but the coma is said to absorb enough solar > ultraviolet at 4 AU to ionize gases which fluoresce, much like > the gas in a fluorescent light bulb. Could - instead - it be the > UV is at least partially self-generated? > > The material in the comet, must be more "active" than just 'ice' > for the small amount of solar UV at 4 AU, to ionize some of it, > perhaps. There is also other evidence which leads the contrarian > to believe that the comet could contain "active" material: the > Tunguska Event of 1908. Yes, you can kludge the numbers together > to fit a scenario of a very large 'normal' comet being > responsible - but none such comet was not seen prior to the > event. > > Anyway, there is one further item of interest - should the > cosmological evidence in the features of a comet (for the > putative hydrino) be convincing- and that secondary and > surprising follow-on implication is of course: those thousands > of 10-20 ton small comets mentioned in the site above, which > have supplied earth with much of its water over cosmological > time have loaded our oceans with the "dirt" as well. The > implication is that there should be a substantial population of > "natural" or sun-derived hydrinos in the environment - although > given the (probable) extremely high density of these > di-hydrinos, they would not be easy to find, except perhaps in > some minerals. > > They should likely accumulate on the ocean bottom... and in > manganese nodules, which are thought to have a biogenic origin. > That could tell us something else if they do contain hydrinos - > as we know that most of the organisms associated with their > formation are themselves fluorescent. That could be the > connection with the solar di-hydrino which gets deposited in the > oceans over billions of years. Could life-forms at these great > depths have evolved to use this constant resource of hydrinos > for purposes of promoting fluorescence? ... I am assuming of > course that hydrinos would somehow promote fluorescence, but > this could be false and 'more ado about nothing.' > > To go even further out - deuterinos. Could they be turning up in > a small population in CF experiments - not in the heavy water > but instead in the palladium and/or the electrolyte? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 16 09:50:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAGHoJP3022530; Wed, 16 Nov 2005 09:50:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAGHoHO6022493; Wed, 16 Nov 2005 09:50:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 09:50:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <001201c5ead6$1dae99d0$0100007f xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: large,old paper by.. Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 11:48:58 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000E_01C5EAA3.BAF22F50" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-100.9 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE,J_CHICKENPOX_21, J_CHICKENPOX_53,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64452 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C5EAA3.BAF22F50 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000F_01C5EAA3.BAF22F50" ------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C5EAA3.BAF22F50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankJed wrote.. The only people with a vested interest in opposing cold fusion that I = know=20 of are the plasma fusion researchers at MIT. They are afraid that some = of=20 their research money will be diverted to cold fusion. They were livid = with=20 anger in March 1989. They planted stories in the newspapers, they = ranted,=20 they raved, they held a party to celebrate the death of cold fusion, = they=20 even reportedly called for the arrest and imprisonment of Fleischmann = and=20 Pons. However, the fundamental reason they oppose the research is that = they=20 think it is nonsense. If they thought it might be real they would try = and=20 do it themselves. - Jed I recall my first experience with cold fusion back in the 1960's. We had = started up the systems a few days before in a high rise condo. The next = week we were faced with a disintegrated 4 inch copper pipe that was = located on the discharge of a pressure reducing station in the basement. = During the night , the mostly unoccupied building water use was so low = that the pressure reducing valve had produced a sonic effect and the = cavitation had eroded the pipe in a short time. The top of the pipe was = missing, the inside bottom had the appearance of being shot peened by = buckshot. Classic cavitation phenomena. (Sonolumincense ( SL) to the = scientist).=20 Interesting that the erosion damage occurred in such a short time. The = valve had been replaced the evening before the event,, No erosion to the = inside of the copper pipe was evident during the replacement. Our = investigation concluded the cavitation damage happened in a less than 4 = hour time frame. In checking with the local municipal water pump = station, we learned they had " dosed" their pipeline with a high dose of = chlorine for hypochlorinating purposes that day. We also saw a 24 inch = split case centrifugal pump bronze impeller that had " dissolved into a = spungy mess " do to the improper suction piping sizing. Since that experience, we often have a gas inductor pump returned for = service that shows severe erosion on the cavities directly across from = the exit ports feeding chlorine gas or hypo liquid.=20 Elementary, my dear Watson.. call it cavitation, SL or CF. It'e been = around long before MIT discounted it. Another example is the penstock = valve piping at Glen Canyon dam and what happened to the brilliant idea = to " try" opening the bypasses to lower the reservoir water level = quickly. The cavitation had " cut" the concrete liner like a torch. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C5EAA3.BAF22F50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Jed wrote..

The only people with a vested interest in opposing cold fusion that I = know=20
of are the plasma fusion researchers at MIT. They are afraid that = some of=20
their research money will be diverted to cold fusion. They were = livid with=20
anger in March 1989. They planted stories in the newspapers, they = ranted,=20
they raved, they held a party to celebrate the death of cold fusion, = they=20
even reportedly called for the arrest and imprisonment of = Fleischmann and=20
Pons. However, the fundamental reason they oppose the research is = that they=20
think it is nonsense. If they thought it might be real they would = try and=20
do it themselves.

- Jed

I recall my first experience with cold fusion back in the 1960's. We = had=20 started up the systems a few days before in a high rise condo. The = next=20 week  we were faced with a disintegrated 4 inch copper pipe that = was=20 located on the discharge of a pressure reducing station in the basement. = During=20 the night , the mostly unoccupied building water use was so low that the = pressure reducing valve had produced a sonic effect and the cavitation = had=20 eroded the pipe in a short time. The top of the pipe was missing, the = inside=20 bottom had the appearance of being shot peened by buckshot. Classic = cavitation=20 phenomena. (Sonolumincense ( SL) to the scientist).

Interesting that the erosion damage occurred in such a short = time.=20 The valve had been replaced the evening before the event,,=20 No erosion to the inside of the copper pipe was evident during = the=20 replacement. Our investigation concluded the cavitation damage happened=20 in a less than 4 hour time frame. In checking with the local = municipal=20 water pump station, we learned they had " dosed" their pipeline = with a high=20 dose of chlorine for hypochlorinating purposes = that day. We also=20 saw a 24 inch split case centrifugal pump bronze impeller that had " = dissolved=20 into a spungy mess " do to the improper suction piping sizing.

Since that experience, we often have a gas inductor pump returned for = service=20 that shows severe erosion on the cavities directly across from the exit = ports=20 feeding chlorine gas or hypo liquid.

Elementary, my dear Watson.. call it cavitation, SL or CF. It'e been = around=20 long before MIT discounted it. Another example is the penstock valve = piping at=20 Glen Canyon dam and what happened to the brilliant idea to " try" = opening the=20 bypasses to lower the reservoir water level quickly. The = cavitation=20 had " cut" the concrete liner like a torch.

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C5EAA3.BAF22F50-- ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C5EAA3.BAF22F50 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000d01c5ead6$057ee3b0$0100007f xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C5EAA3.BAF22F50-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 16 10:14:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAGIDn3O000972; Wed, 16 Nov 2005 10:14:05 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAGIDmqJ000965; Wed, 16 Nov 2005 10:13:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 10:13:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <437B76A0.5000102 ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 11:12:48 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cathode (Cometary) Commentary References: <01a401c5eacc$8a84e3c0$6401a8c0 NuDell> In-Reply-To: <01a401c5eacc$8a84e3c0$6401a8c0 NuDell> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64453 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: As always Jones, your imagination has touched reality. As you note, I have been an advocate of a special environment being the source of the cold fusion effects. However, this environment is not in the bulk material, which is completely inert. In all of the studies, mechanisms are available to generate or modify the surface of whatever metal is used. Iwamura and Arata make this modification in advance, while F-P, Szpak, and the various plasma studies do this modification on the fly. When this environment is made on the fly, it is continually changing and is only present at special locations. This factor has made such studies very difficult to replicate. As for the elements that must be present, it is impossible to say at the present time what is required and what should be avoided. Hydrinos might be present because normal H and D are being applied. However, their presence can not be the only requirement. Apparently, a very unusual structure is required that is not present in ordinary matter. The various theories have been so unsuccessful in guiding research because they are based on the properties of "normal" material. Regards, Ed Jones Beene wrote: > The history of LENR is replete with anecdotal speculation about metal > "impurities" being the distinguishing factor between "active" (or > overunity) cathodes and those that are ineffective. Ed Storms has > written an article which centers on the physical environment in which > the LENR reactions occur, the so-called nuclear active environment (NAE) > but he does not appear to address the issue of extreme minority impurities. > http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/StormsEwhatcondit.pdf > > IF... some of the NAE effect is due to impurity elements which are > present in less than the five nine category - i.e. 99.999% purity, then > there is really not enough accurate information available in the > literature, nor from the metal suppliers to know. In the case of the > suppliers some of it appears to be disinformation. > > Following this posting, there will be even more possibilities in the > range of speculation about minority impurities ;-) but such is the > nature of discovery. Someone often must first present the "straw-man" > before others can shoot him down... or dress him up. > > Candidate impurities for increasing nuclear activity, which could be > found in the PPM range in LENR have included the usual suspects from hot > fusion and fission technology: lithium, beryllium, boron, thorium U and > trans-uraniacs, not to mention some of the Pd isotopes, especially the > 102 and 110 which enclose gaps of isotopic instability. > > In general metallurgy, the "purity" of pure metals is not what is > expected from the name, nor the expectations of organic chemistry - and > the suppliers are often the biggest part of the problem - some have been > notoriously evasive and imprecise when you want to focus on this issue. > As with diamonds, rarity has its own special price and it is best not to > let the consumer know certain facts (such as Russian machine made > diamonds are indistinguishable from real ones by most all jewelers). > Testing of purity can often lead to commercial disputes, since cost is a > big issue. Even with mundane metals like iron, pure iron can cost > thousands of times more. > > Iron, the most important commercial metal is almost never available > "pure" form, that is - four-9 pure (99.99%) like copper or silver > (higher electrical conductivity makes obtaining high purity easier). > 98% pure Iron is a commodity and costs pennies per pound, but four-nine > iron is exotic and several hundred of dollars per pound and up (way up), > and even then is not 'that' pure. > > For instance, Goodfellows has 99.99% iron but if you figure out the cost > per pound, it is in 6 figures. > http://www.goodfellow.com/csp/active/gfhome.csp?Language=A > > The situation with cathodic materials is somewhat different as they are > often higher in electrical conductivity than iron (which can serve as a > good model for expected costs vs. purity) and easier to purify by > electrolytic techniques. In general one can say that "impurities" in the > range of 10-100 PPM will go largely undetected... yet... > > The energy-gain ratio (for a NAE) is on the order of 10,000,000 to one > based on an alpha particle being produced, which will often be evidence > of 10-30 MeV of energy having been deposited. Theoretically then if an > impurity is found in an four-nine active cathode, in the range of 100 > PPM, then it can supply a high COP for an extended period of time, even > if it is eventually consumed - and it may never be consumed. > > Given this situation - if and when one of the large labs ever gets into > the LENR fray - perhaps they will undertake the extremely difficult task > of looking at the effect of all possible "intentional" additions in PPM > impurities, but alas that may not be the answer if the "impurity" itself > is one that is unknown to mainstream science. Actually many > experimenters have already added these aforementioned "usual suspect" > impurities in their experiments and seen mixed, but unconvincing > (<100%), results, so there must be more to it - or that "unknown" impurity. > > Huh?? ...what impurity in metals could be unknown to mainstream science? > > You see, it took all this time just to set-up the possibility of the > solar-derived hydrino - the one which was hypothesized to come to earth > in comet-water. This is a different beast then you may have imagined it > to be, based on Mills. I have included the relevant part of that post > below but wanted to add this on. This material is based on the premise > that Mills has gotten things only "half-right." > > Others have talked about the hydrino-deuterino being produced in-situ > from the ongoing LENR electrolysis, but I am going to broaden that > considerably by saying that in-situ hydrinos are not only unnecessary, > they may be impossible, and even incompatible with net energy gain. > > Many have noticed that logically, hydrino production (if Mills > experiments are accurate but not his theory) could be endothermic, he > has never ruled that out (even when he has shown net OU). The > non-radiative condition, then, is always indicative of energy being > *taken in* by the tighter orbital. At any rate, if hydrinos exist but > are endothermic to produce, then how and why do Mills experiments > indicate OU? > > Partial answer: all of Mills' catalysts could actually contains PPM of > solar-derived natural hydrinos, and in a fairly high shrinkage state (N= > 1/4 to N=1/7 ??). > > This is actually an expect result of comets being formed in the Oort > belt and being responsible for much of our ocean water. Perhaps Mills' > catalysts are catalysts solely because they have a natural affinity to > hydrinos, and were once dissolved in ocean water (where comet-derive > hydrinos accumulated). Perhaps in experiments, these hydrinos are being > 'expanded' by the experiment to produce OU. Some of that energy can then > be consumed to produce other N=1/2 hydrinos, since the shrinkage and > expansion situations are probably cross-catalytic... with the net result > being that a potassium catalyst will give up its population of "natural" > or solar derived hydrinos to the reaction, and at the same time create > others endothermicly. > > In the end, after a period of K-electrolysis, Thermacore may have taken > out (of a few grams of potassium electrolyte) a few micrograms of > hydrinos, and maybe created twice as many lower shrinkage ones and some > excess energy. Bottom line in simplistic terms: for every 100 natural > solar created hydrinos taken out potassium at average shrinkage of 5 > steps (N=1/5) we end up with 300 hydrinos of average shrinkage 2 and > some excess energy. Even those lower energy (N=1/2) hydrinos can be > "burned" but not by shrinking more, but by being reinflated where they > give back the endothermic energy used to shrink them. > > If palladium likewise has an affinity for these primordial solar created > hydrinos, then natural Pd may contain PPM quantities. A situation may be > happening in LENR where the primordial hydrino within the metal lattice, > the original n=1/7 hydrino will do one of two (or more) things. It can > combine with a deuteron and produce helium-3 (or tritium with an > immediate beta decay) or it can "strip" the deuteron neutron, or it can > tunnel into the Pd and stimulate an alpha emission (resulting in some of > the peculiar ash which is seen). > > Anyway to my way of thing NONE of these possibilities has ret been > excluded by the literature of LENR or the hydrino, or by the Mills > theory. There is your new straw man - for target practice. > >> If Mills is correct - about the rate of hydrino formation in the solar >> corona, given that the Oort cloud, the birthing-ground for comets - >> must have been collecting hydrino detritus from the sun for some 4.6 >> billion years, mas o menos...then what do these thousands of tons of >> daily comet-water have to tell us additionally? >> >> ... the mass of every comet should contain a substantial content of >> hydrinos, no? >> >> Perhaps the best evidence for the putative hydrino is cosmological - >> and the comet itself may bolster that evidence, with a secondary and >> surprising follow-on implication. >> >> This fits in with the recent treads on the unlikelihood of any >> molecular compounding (other than the di-hydrino, in the absence of >> Robin's cationic bonding candidates), then the di-hydrino must be the >> best option, no? Given the supposedly high density of a di-hydrino, >> then, perhaps they are the 'nucleating agent' around which the >> comet-ice forms initially. If the average hydrino in the Oort cloud >> has a "shrinkage" level of n=3, then the di-hydrino should have a >> density about the same as uranium. That is, if the logical assumption >> of mass-per-unit-volume still applies - and why should it not apply? >> >> There are some problems with the standard explanation for comets - >> esp. the tail of same. The tail of a small comet can stretch out for >> 100 million miles long, and it appears (to a minority of astronomers) >> to have more "glow" than it should for that small amount of scattered >> ice.... IF that is, the comet were 'only' reflecting sunlight at those >> extreme distances (4AU is where the strong glow starts). >> >> When the nucleus of the comet is frozen solid, of course, it can only >> be seen only by reflected sunlight -- so comets are basically >> invisible. There are thought to be "dirty snow balls" composed of ice >> and dust. If the "dust" is predominantly the dense di-hydrinos >> however, this might explain some of the curiosities about the comet... >> if that is, the hydrino-component of comets is induced to shrink >> further on encountering the solar wind, creating its own UV. >> >> The tail of the comet ALWAYS points away from the sun, even at 4AU and >> the solar wind must be more intense at those distances than commonly >> appreciated. That relatively intense solar wind could be responsible >> for triggering further hydrino-shrinkage - because we know the glow >> seen has a UV origin (from its spectrum). The dust in the coma does >> reflect sunlight, when closer in, but the coma is said to absorb >> enough solar ultraviolet at 4 AU to ionize gases which fluoresce, much >> like the gas in a fluorescent light bulb. Could - instead - it be the >> UV is at least partially self-generated? >> >> The material in the comet, must be more "active" than just 'ice' for >> the small amount of solar UV at 4 AU, to ionize some of it, perhaps. >> There is also other evidence which leads the contrarian to believe >> that the comet could contain "active" material: the Tunguska Event of >> 1908. Yes, you can kludge the numbers together to fit a scenario of a >> very large 'normal' comet being responsible - but none such comet was >> not seen prior to the event. >> >> Anyway, there is one further item of interest - should the >> cosmological evidence in the features of a comet (for the putative >> hydrino) be convincing- and that secondary and surprising follow-on >> implication is of course: those thousands of 10-20 ton small comets >> mentioned in the site above, which have supplied earth with much of >> its water over cosmological time have loaded our oceans with the >> "dirt" as well. The implication is that there should be a substantial >> population of "natural" or sun-derived hydrinos in the environment - >> although given the (probable) extremely high density of these >> di-hydrinos, they would not be easy to find, except perhaps in some >> minerals. >> >> They should likely accumulate on the ocean bottom... and in manganese >> nodules, which are thought to have a biogenic origin. That could tell >> us something else if they do contain hydrinos - as we know that most >> of the organisms associated with their formation are themselves >> fluorescent. That could be the connection with the solar di-hydrino >> which gets deposited in the oceans over billions of years. Could >> life-forms at these great depths have evolved to use this constant >> resource of hydrinos for purposes of promoting fluorescence? ... I am >> assuming of course that hydrinos would somehow promote fluorescence, >> but this could be false and 'more ado about nothing.' >> >> To go even further out - deuterinos. Could they be turning up in a >> small population in CF experiments - not in the heavy water but >> instead in the palladium and/or the electrolyte? > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 16 11:38:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAGJbUdH026283; Wed, 16 Nov 2005 11:37:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAGJbSIb026247; Wed, 16 Nov 2005 11:37:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 11:37:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <01d601c5eae5$1e18cf80$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <01a401c5eacc$8a84e3c0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <437B76A0.5000102@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: Cathode (Cometary) Commentary Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 11:37:01 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64454 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ed Storms > Apparently, a very unusual structure is required that is not > present in ordinary matter. The various theories have been so > unsuccessful in guiding research because they are based on the > properties of "normal" material. Everyone can probably agree on that part, and in fact, catalysts usually depend on "structure" at some level of observation. If however LENR relates to more than 'just' geometric structure, such as the structure of a metal which is hydrided with a very tightly bound hydride which modifies the external geometry - that would be interesting. I wish my electron microscope was not on the fritz today ;-) BTW for those (from Oz ;-) who are sure to correct some of my past posted details (and I appreciate that), and since my original rough calculation for expected di-hydrino density was too hasty, here is something based on what we know about H2 - with the assumption that liquid Hy2 (Hy2 being the di-hydrino) is very similar to liquid H2 except in melting point. I expected the melting point for N=1/2 to be over 1000 K and the others to be solid, but I am certain that there will be a wide divergence of opinion as to those numbers and as to the phase change points. The liquid density of H2 is .07 gm/cc. Unfortunately, no solid density is available, as it would demand extreme pressure. Since the Oort cloud will contain few cations, one can expect almost all solar hydrinos deposited there to be paired together molecularly, and in a similar fashion to H2. except with the smaller orbital and higher resultant density. Based then on extending the H2 model, liquid n=1/3 hydrinos should weigh in at 1.89 gm/cc and n=1/4 would be 4.48 and n=1/7 which Mills claims to have samples of (but in the form of ionic bound chemical hydrides) would be 24 gm/cc - about the density of uranium. Note however this important detail - that even though the density of shrunken di-hydrino molecules would be every high, the same does not apply to hydrino hydrides (ionic bonding), since the (more shrunken variety) hydrino would probably be actually located most of the time *inside* the orbital cloud (not unusual) and likely around the k-shell of the resultant hydride (unusual), which would be only slightly larger, and perhaps even less dense than before. Nevertheless, I cannot imagine this material, even in the first shrinkage state, staying gaseous at STP. And I still think many hydrinos should be found in ocean minerals, particularly the alkalis, and that could be the Mills' catalyst connection. Why sodium would not be a catalyst "carrier" (i.e and active Mills catalyst) is not certain. Perhaps many alkalis are in that category because the nucleus is expressing a lesser positive charge (near-field than expected). But what eliminates sodium? Could it be that hydrino catalysts are only catalytic for one reason - that is because they have a natural affinity for hydrino-hydriding (with the natural population of solar-derived hydrinos) and therefore already contain primordial amounts of hydrinos? IOW they are not the catalyst themselves, they just carry the primordial hydrino, which is the true catalyst. Given that the n=1/2 would float on water, density-wise (although likely completely soluble) they could be anywhere, if they are indeed of primordial (and ongoing origin) in PPM or PPB ratios - and this is especially true of potassium salts - and in other Mills 'catalysts' but why not sodium... hmm. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 16 11:44:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAGJiSUS000453; Wed, 16 Nov 2005 11:44:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAGJiRfM000414; Wed, 16 Nov 2005 11:44:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 11:44:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20051116194402779.13037240026F mwinf3102.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20051116194403.009aa1b4 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 19:44:03 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: large,old paper by.. Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64455 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:48 am 16/11/2005 -0600, Richard wrote: >I recall my first experience with cold fusion back in the 1960's. We had started up the systems a few days before in a high rise condo. The next week we were faced with a disintegrated 4 inch copper pipe that was located on the discharge of a pressure reducing station in the basement. During the night , the mostly unoccupied building water use was so low that the pressure reducing valve had produced a sonic effect and the cavitation had eroded the pipe in a short time. The top of the pipe was missing, the inside bottom had the appearance of being shot peened by buckshot. Classic cavitation phenomena. (Sonolumincense ( SL) to the scientist). > >Interesting that the erosion damage occurred in such a short time. The valve had been replaced the evening before the event,, No erosion to the inside of the copper pipe was evident during the replacement. Our investigation concluded the cavitation damage happened in a less than 4 hour time frame. In checking with the local municipal water pump station, we learned they had " dosed" their pipeline with a high dose of chlorine for hypochlorinating purposes that day. We also saw a 24 inch split case centrifugal pump bronze impeller that had " dissolved into a spungy mess " do to the improper suction piping sizing. > >Since that experience, we often have a gas inductor pump returned for service that shows severe erosion on the cavities directly across from the exit ports feeding chlorine gas or hypo liquid. > >Elementary, my dear Watson.. call it cavitation, SL or CF. It'e been around long before MIT discounted it. Another example is the penstock valve piping at Glen Canyon dam and what happened to the brilliant idea to " try" opening the bypasses to lower the reservoir water level quickly. The cavitation had " cut" the concrete liner like a torch. > >Richard All seems consistent with a Beta-atmosphere vacuum, (high pF) in the cavitation holes. Frank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 16 12:13:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAGKDDde020378; Wed, 16 Nov 2005 12:13:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAGKDCQF020364; Wed, 16 Nov 2005 12:13:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 12:13:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <437B92A2.5020100 ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 13:12:18 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cathode (Cometary) Commentary References: <01a401c5eacc$8a84e3c0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <437B76A0.5000102@ix.netcom.com> <01d601c5eae5$1e18cf80$6401a8c0@NuDell> In-Reply-To: <01d601c5eae5$1e18cf80$6401a8c0 NuDell> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64456 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > Ed Storms > >> Apparently, a very unusual structure is required that is not present >> in ordinary matter. The various theories have been so unsuccessful in >> guiding research because they are based on the properties of "normal" >> material. > > > Everyone can probably agree on that part, and in fact, catalysts usually > depend on "structure" at some level of observation. > > If however LENR relates to more than 'just' geometric structure, such as > the structure of a metal which is hydrided with a very tightly bound > hydride which modifies the external geometry - that would be > interesting. I wish my electron microscope was not on the fritz today ;-) I imagine that the unique structure is not only based on the arrangement of atoms, but also on the arrangement of electrons in uncharacteristic ways. I believe the prediction that the structure is a room temperature superconductor is correct. Such a structure would potentially be able to support a coherent electron wave as well as dissipate the released energy within this electron structure. > > > > BTW for those (from Oz ;-) who are sure to correct some of my past > posted details (and I appreciate that), and since my original rough > calculation for expected di-hydrino density was too hasty, here is > something based on what we know about H2 - with the assumption that > liquid Hy2 (Hy2 being the di-hydrino) is very similar to liquid H2 > except in melting point. I expected the melting point for N=1/2 to be > over 1000 K and the others to be solid, but I am certain that there will > be a wide divergence of opinion as to those numbers and as to the phase > change points. I take the opposite view, that the melting point would be far lower than H2. In fact, I would predict that Hy would never be a liquid, at least on this world. Formation of a condensed phase requires some attraction between the atoms. Helium has the lowest melting point because the atoms have the least attraction. What would be the basis of attraction between Hy atoms? The electron can not leave the nucleus for even a brief time, thus no covalent attraction is possible. Also, how is Hy pairing possible? This requires electron exchange, which would appear to be impossible in these atoms. I also suggest that any compound formation would require the Hy atom to be bounded in a cage formation where it would be trapped in a structure that is more physical than chemical. I'm open to suggestions as to why I'm full of s---. Regards, Ed > > The liquid density of H2 is .07 gm/cc. Unfortunately, no solid density > is available, as it would demand extreme pressure. Since the Oort cloud > will contain few cations, one can expect almost all solar hydrinos > deposited there to be paired together molecularly, and in a similar > fashion to H2. except with the smaller orbital and higher resultant > density. > > Based then on extending the H2 model, liquid n=1/3 hydrinos should weigh > in at 1.89 gm/cc and n=1/4 would be 4.48 and n=1/7 which Mills claims > to have samples of (but in the form of ionic bound chemical hydrides) > would be 24 gm/cc - about the density of uranium. > > Note however this important detail - that even though the density of > shrunken di-hydrino molecules would be every high, the same does not > apply to hydrino hydrides (ionic bonding), since the (more shrunken > variety) hydrino would probably be actually located most of the time > *inside* the orbital cloud (not unusual) and likely around the k-shell > of the resultant hydride (unusual), which would be only slightly larger, > and perhaps even less dense than before. > > Nevertheless, I cannot imagine this material, even in the first > shrinkage state, staying gaseous at STP. And I still think many > hydrinos should be found in ocean minerals, particularly the alkalis, > and that could be the Mills' catalyst connection. Why sodium would not > be a catalyst "carrier" (i.e and active Mills catalyst) is not certain. > Perhaps many alkalis are in that category because the nucleus is > expressing a lesser positive charge (near-field than expected). But what > eliminates sodium? > > Could it be that hydrino catalysts are only catalytic for one reason - > that is because they have a natural affinity for hydrino-hydriding (with > the natural population of solar-derived hydrinos) and therefore already > contain primordial amounts of hydrinos? IOW they are not the catalyst > themselves, they just carry the primordial hydrino, which is the true > catalyst. > > Given that the n=1/2 would float on water, density-wise (although likely > completely soluble) they could be anywhere, if they are indeed of > primordial (and ongoing origin) in PPM or PPB ratios - and this is > especially true of potassium salts - and in other Mills 'catalysts' but > why not sodium... hmm. > > Jones > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 16 16:14:21 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAH0DuQf027673; Wed, 16 Nov 2005 16:14:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAH0DsuX027649; Wed, 16 Nov 2005 16:13:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 16:13:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <021a01c5eb0b$bdfeb0c0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <01a401c5eacc$8a84e3c0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <437B76A0.5000102@ix.netcom.com> <01d601c5eae5$1e18cf80$6401a8c0@NuDell> <437B92A2.5020100@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: Cathode (Cometary) Commentary Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 16:13:30 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64457 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ed > The electron can not leave the nucleus for even a brief time, > thus no covalent attraction is possible. ...methinks you are just trying to get rid of these critters (but by gravity instead of the normal levity ;-) Covalent bonding is indeed seemingly impossible with any other element than another hydrino, one can suspect that much - BUT there is such a strong preference for the interlocking wave functions of two bound electrons that I think a paring of hydrinos is almost a foregone conclusion in QM terms. The classic case of covalent bonding, where the hydrogen molecule forms by the overlap of the wavefunctions of the electrons of the respective hydrogen atoms in an interaction which is characterized as an exchange interaction, is surprisingly strong. Why would this change with a smaller radius? In fact the interchange bonding should make this molecule almost like a helium nulceus, only with stronger bonding. Once the Hy2 forms it is going to take a very high energy photon to ionize it. That would definitely bolster your view that the liquid state is unlikely. Perhaps you are correct on that point about no liquid phase, and that does seems to be the majority opinion - but I think the pairing to di-hydrino is inevitable. And the potential density-equalent is there, even in a gas, and it might have low comparative mobility - if QM wavefunctions are applicable at that geometry, and since the Hy pair will be comparatively small, dense and slow - plus according to Mills, will have a positive near field ! then they would tend to lodge in the orbitals of whatever cation is available, no? But this is NOT Mills' version of events exactly. Come to think of it - maybe Mills got that part slightly wrong and what we have is always the di-hydride instead of the hydride? Perhaps that is part of the reason that sodium isn't a catalyst (its wavefunction interaction does not fit with the Hy2 ?). Hmm. Jones BTW - since several Hy2 molecules, if they do express a positive near field, should be able to be bound with a single electron that would seem to open up the prospect of charged dense strucutre - like the buckyball or icosohedron... yet the charge is hidden. Is one of these the nucleating agent for an EVOs ? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 16 16:54:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAH0rcd7015567; Wed, 16 Nov 2005 16:53:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAH0raBI015529; Wed, 16 Nov 2005 16:53:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 16:53:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <023301c5eb11$48749b20$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <01a401c5eacc$8a84e3c0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <437B76A0.5000102@ix.netcom.com> <01d601c5eae5$1e18cf80$6401a8c0@NuDell> <437B92A2.5020100@ix.netcom.com> <021a01c5eb0b$bdfeb0c0$6401a8c0@NuDell> Subject: Re: Cathode (Cometary) Commentary Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 16:53:10 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <0Qy2lD.A.WyD.PS9eDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64458 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ERRATA: should be "helium atom" not nulceus... ;-) not to mention, what IS a nulceus anyway? And does anyone know why spell checkers will often miss simple errors? Perhaps that is also an "interlocking wave function" but with the computer owner? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 16 19:59:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAH3whg9017793; Wed, 16 Nov 2005 19:58:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAH3wf6D017768; Wed, 16 Nov 2005 19:58:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 19:58:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: large,old paper by.. Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 14:58:10 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <001201c5ead6$1dae99d0$0100007f xptower> In-Reply-To: <001201c5ead6$1dae99d0$0100007f xptower> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta03sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.59.28] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Thu, 17 Nov 2005 03:58:09 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id jAH3wK2J017551 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64459 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to RC Macaulay's message of Wed, 16 Nov 2005 11:48:58 -0600: Hi, [snip] >Since that experience, we often have a gas inductor pump returned for service that shows severe erosion on the cavities directly across from the exit ports feeding chlorine gas or hypo liquid. [snip] Cl ions form a complex with some metals (which is why HCl is part of aqua regia). Perhaps Cu is one of those metals. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 16 20:25:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAH4OwF0031339; Wed, 16 Nov 2005 20:25:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAH4OueR031314; Wed, 16 Nov 2005 20:24:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 20:24:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001001c5eb2e$cfdb0eb0$d9027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: <001201c5ead6$1dae99d0$0100007f xptower> Subject: Re: large,old paper by.. Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 22:24:32 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.2 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, J_CHICKENPOX_53,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64460 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Robin, Thanks for the input. Copper piping , yes I can understand the plate face pits like a shotgun pelleting. In the case of the high speed rotating member, the material is UHMW ultra high molecular weight poly. The pitting is remarkably different. the pits in teh UHMW are needle point and deeper jagged in appearance. Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin van Spaandonk" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2005 9:58 PM Subject: Re: large,old paper by.. > In reply to RC Macaulay's message of Wed, 16 Nov 2005 11:48:58 > -0600: > Hi, > [snip] >>Since that experience, we often have a gas inductor pump returned for >>service that shows severe erosion on the cavities directly across from the >>exit ports feeding chlorine gas or hypo liquid. > [snip] > Cl ions form a complex with some metals (which is why HCl is part > of aqua regia). Perhaps Cu is one of those metals. > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > Competition provides the motivation, > Cooperation provides the means. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 16 20:45:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAH4icPF013749; Wed, 16 Nov 2005 20:44:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAH4iabK013714; Wed, 16 Nov 2005 20:44:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 20:44:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cathode (Cometary) Commentary Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 15:44:05 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <870on1120a6hmb03ptjgf1t9t6i7amh6he 4ax.com> References: <01a401c5eacc$8a84e3c0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <437B76A0.5000102@ix.netcom.com> <01d601c5eae5$1e18cf80$6401a8c0@NuDell> <437B92A2.5020100@ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: <437B92A2.5020100 ix.netcom.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta01ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.59.28] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Thu, 17 Nov 2005 04:44:04 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id jAH4iA0G013437 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64461 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Edmund Storms's message of Wed, 16 Nov 2005 13:12:18 -0700: Hi, [snip] >I imagine that the unique structure is not only based on the arrangement >of atoms, but also on the arrangement of electrons in uncharacteristic >ways. I believe the prediction that the structure is a room temperature >superconductor is correct. Such a structure would potentially be able to >support a coherent electron wave as well as dissipate the released >energy within this electron structure. [snip] That's the opening I have been waiting for. ;) Several years ago (late 90's?) I posted a message to this forum suggesting that superconducting segments that suddenly cease to superconduct would accelerate charged particles to high energy, and that such microscopic particle accelerators might be involved in CF. I would now like to embroider on this a little. First, when a small section of cathode becomes superconducting, essentially all local current will flow through it rather than through the surrounding metal. That in turn results in a strong local magnetic field around the superconducting segment. If the mag. field strength gets too high, the material suddenly ceases to be a superconductor, and the field collapses (very rapidly). Due to V = -L dI/dt, the voltage accelerating free charged particles in the segment can be locally very high. Now we switch our point of view to the "heavy electrons" in the Widom/Larsen paper, and discover that we now potentially have another source of "heavy electrons". Once the mag. field has collapsed, if the arrangement of atoms is unchanged, they are free to once again become superconducting, and the whole cycle can begin again. Theoretically, this process could repeat at quite high frequencies, provided that the power supply continues to feed it[1]. We do however have a problem. In order to form a neutron, the electron needs to have about 7-800 keV of kinetic energy. The neutron in turn will on average yield about 5 MeV of energy, by attaching itself to another nucleus, so at least 1 in 6 of the electrons that are energetic enough has to form a neutron, just to break even[2]. To make matters worse, probably nowhere near enough electrons are going to have that much energy anyway. All of which may go some way toward explaining why CF is frequently only OU by a few percent. [1] This may be enhanced by placing a fast responding capacitor directly across the electrodes at the cell (with short leads). [2] This depends somewhat on your definition of breaking even. Since every neutron formed results in excess energy, and electrons that don't form neutrons simply convert their energy into heat that is counted in the output anyway, this process is always at least somewhat OU. How much so, only experiment will tell. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 16 20:48:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAH4lYww015167; Wed, 16 Nov 2005 20:47:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAH4lX61015140; Wed, 16 Nov 2005 20:47:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 20:47:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cathode (Cometary) Commentary Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 15:47:09 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <01a401c5eacc$8a84e3c0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <437B76A0.5000102@ix.netcom.com> <01d601c5eae5$1e18cf80$6401a8c0@NuDell> <437B92A2.5020100@ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: <437B92A2.5020100 ix.netcom.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta02ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.59.28] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Thu, 17 Nov 2005 04:47:08 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id jAH4lFX9014946 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64462 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Edmund Storms's message of Wed, 16 Nov 2005 13:12:18 -0700: Hi, [snip] >to be impossible in these atoms. I also suggest that any compound >formation would require the Hy atom to be bounded in a cage formation >where it would be trapped in a structure that is more physical than >chemical. [snip] Don't you believe in Hy-hydrides, or that they may bind to positive ions? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 17 06:37:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAHEaoje002311; Thu, 17 Nov 2005 06:37:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAHEamH9002271; Thu, 17 Nov 2005 06:36:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 06:36:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <4e8oko$1m9sb51 mxip10a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.97,343,1125892800"; d="scan'208"; a="1822305441:sNHT94632896" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: OrionWorks Organization: OrionWorks To: CC: Subject: Defense contractor reticent on anti-gravity discovery Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 8:36:23 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64463 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vorts, This may be of interest to some on this group: http://pesn.com/2005/11/16/9600203_New_Nazi_Bell/ Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 17 07:54:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAHFrs9L011117; Thu, 17 Nov 2005 07:54:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAHFrmP2011062; Thu, 17 Nov 2005 07:53:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 07:53:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <437CA755.8050403 ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 08:52:53 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cathode (Cometary) Commentary References: <01a401c5eacc$8a84e3c0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <437B76A0.5000102@ix.netcom.com> <01d601c5eae5$1e18cf80$6401a8c0@NuDell> <437B92A2.5020100@ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <1s3SV.A.nsC.LeKfDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64464 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to Edmund Storms's message of Wed, 16 Nov 2005 13:12:18 > -0700: > Hi, > [snip] > >>to be impossible in these atoms. I also suggest that any compound >>formation would require the Hy atom to be bounded in a cage formation >>where it would be trapped in a structure that is more physical than >>chemical. > > [snip] > Don't you believe in Hy-hydrides, or that they may bind to > positive ions? I have a hard time, Robin, understanding how a chemical bond can form with a Hy. The electrons are in energy states that are far removed from the states in normal atoms and the states are not compatible in a quantum sense. Normal chemistry recognizes three types of bonds, which are ionic, covalent and metallic. Each requires the electron be removed from the atom for some length of time. This time is longest for ionic bonds and shortest for a metallic bond. How long can the electron associated with a Hy be located elsewhere? How does this loss happen without the energy lost during formation of a Hy being returned to the electron? Regards, Ed > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > Competition provides the motivation, > Cooperation provides the means. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 17 08:32:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAHGWDOe011955; Thu, 17 Nov 2005 08:32:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAHGWC67011929; Thu, 17 Nov 2005 08:32:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 08:32:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <437CB045.8090207 ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 09:31:01 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cathode (Cometary) Commentary References: <01a401c5eacc$8a84e3c0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <437B76A0.5000102@ix.netcom.com> <01d601c5eae5$1e18cf80$6401a8c0@NuDell> <437B92A2.5020100@ix.netcom.com> <870on1120a6hmb03ptjgf1t9t6i7amh6he@4ax.com> In-Reply-To: <870on1120a6hmb03ptjgf1t9t6i7amh6he 4ax.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64465 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Well Robin, as you eventually concluded, rapid collapse of a local superconducting site would not supply the necessary energy to make a neutron because local conservation of energy would still have to occur. Energy might be concentrated in a few individual electrons, but the total number of electrons having this energy would be small, hence the total available energy would also be small. Frankly, I do not see how sufficient energy can be concentrated in a region of space occupied by a proton to allow it to be converted into a neutron. As far as I know, no demonstrated example of such conversion has been published. Do you know of any demonstrated example of a proton being converted to a neutron using an electron of any size? Regards, Ed Regards, Ed Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to Edmund Storms's message of Wed, 16 Nov 2005 13:12:18 > -0700: > Hi, > [snip] > >>I imagine that the unique structure is not only based on the arrangement >>of atoms, but also on the arrangement of electrons in uncharacteristic >>ways. I believe the prediction that the structure is a room temperature >>superconductor is correct. Such a structure would potentially be able to >>support a coherent electron wave as well as dissipate the released >>energy within this electron structure. > > [snip] > That's the opening I have been waiting for. ;) > Several years ago (late 90's?) I posted a message to this forum > suggesting that superconducting segments that suddenly cease to > superconduct would accelerate charged particles to high energy, > and that such microscopic particle accelerators might be involved > in CF. > I would now like to embroider on this a little. > First, when a small section of cathode becomes superconducting, > essentially all local current will flow through it rather than > through the surrounding metal. That in turn results in a strong > local magnetic field around the superconducting segment. If the > mag. field strength gets too high, the material suddenly ceases to > be a superconductor, and the field collapses (very rapidly). Due > to V = -L dI/dt, the voltage accelerating free charged particles > in the segment can be locally very high. Now we switch our point > of view to the "heavy electrons" in the Widom/Larsen paper, and > discover that we now potentially have another source of "heavy > electrons". > > Once the mag. field has collapsed, if the arrangement of atoms is > unchanged, they are free to once again become superconducting, and > the whole cycle can begin again. Theoretically, this process could > repeat at quite high frequencies, provided that the power supply > continues to feed it[1]. > > We do however have a problem. In order to form a neutron, the > electron needs to have about 7-800 keV of kinetic energy. The > neutron in turn will on average yield about 5 MeV of energy, by > attaching itself to another nucleus, so at least 1 in 6 of the > electrons that are energetic enough has to form a neutron, just to > break even[2]. To make matters worse, probably nowhere near enough > electrons are going to have that much energy anyway. All of which > may go some way toward explaining why CF is frequently only OU by > a few percent. > > [1] This may be enhanced by placing a fast responding capacitor > directly across the electrodes at the cell (with short leads). > > [2] This depends somewhat on your definition of breaking even. > Since every neutron formed results in excess energy, and electrons > that don't form neutrons simply convert their energy into heat > that is counted in the output anyway, this process is always at > least somewhat OU. How much so, only experiment will tell. > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > Competition provides the motivation, > Cooperation provides the means. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 17 08:34:21 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAHGXkkV012721; Thu, 17 Nov 2005 08:34:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAHGXj8t012695; Thu, 17 Nov 2005 08:33:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 08:33:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 11:33:33 -0500 From: George Holz Subject: Re: Cathode (Cometary) Commentary To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <007401c5eb94$a6c2ab30$6401a8c0 GEH> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1506 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1506 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <01a401c5eacc$8a84e3c0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <437B76A0.5000102 ix.netcom.com> <01d601c5eae5$1e18cf80$6401a8c0@NuDell> <437B92A2.5020100 ix.netcom.com> <437CA755.8050403 ix.netcom.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64466 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ed and Robin, RVS: Don't you believe in Hy-hydrides, or that they may bind to > > positive ions? > ES: I have a hard time, Robin, understanding how a chemical bond can form > with a Hy. The electrons are in energy states that are far removed from > the states in normal atoms and the states are not compatible in a > quantum sense. Normal chemistry recognizes three types of bonds, which > are ionic, covalent and metallic. Each requires the electron be removed > from the atom for some length of time. This time is longest for ionic > bonds and shortest for a metallic bond. How long can the electron > associated with a Hy be located elsewhere? How does this loss happen > without the energy lost during formation of a Hy being returned to the > electron? GH: Is the Hy-hydride bond a stronger version of the weak bond (.6 ev) that is found in negative hydrogen ions (H-) ? I don't know how Ed would classify this bond but it seems to me that getting the first electron closer to the proton could increase this bond strength. Robin, can you clarify how Mills explains the bond and even calculates the bond strength for many 1/n Hy-hydrides? George Holz Varitronics Systems From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 17 08:57:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAHGv4bu025686; Thu, 17 Nov 2005 08:57:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAHGv3lA025661; Thu, 17 Nov 2005 08:57:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 08:57:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003e01c5eb97$e10b2440$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <01a401c5eacc$8a84e3c0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <437B76A0.5000102@ix.netcom.com> <01d601c5eae5$1e18cf80$6401a8c0@NuDell> <437B92A2.5020100@ix.netcom.com> <437CA755.8050403@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: Cathode (Cometary) Commentary Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 08:56:39 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <5aQevB.A.5QG.eZLfDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64467 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Edmund Storms writes, > I have a hard time, Robin, understanding how a chemical bond can > form with a Hy. The electrons are in energy states that are far > removed from the states in normal atoms and the states are not > compatible in a quantum sense. With the huge exception of another hydrino of the same redundant ground state. In that situation a chemical bond is highly favored, no? Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 17 09:49:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAHHnDK7022292; Thu, 17 Nov 2005 09:49:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAHHnAIi022237; Thu, 17 Nov 2005 09:49:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 09:49:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001301c5eb9f$27b30be0$5a037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: <01a401c5eacc$8a84e3c0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <437B76A0.5000102@ix.netcom.com> <01d601c5eae5$1e18cf80$6401a8c0@NuDell> <437B92A2.5020100@ix.netcom.com> <437CA755.8050403@ix.netcom.com> <003e01c5eb97$e10b2440$6401a8c0@NuDell> Subject: Re: Cathode (Cometary) Commentary Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 11:48:43 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-100.3 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,RCVD_IN_XBL, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: <3x1cXB.A.JbF.UKMfDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64468 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vorts, Sure hope everyone is following this thread close.. there is meat on them bones,, reminds me of the Beta atmosphere thread.. hopefully, there is a way to " blend" the two. Jump in there Grimer. Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jones Beene" To: Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2005 10:56 AM Subject: Re: Cathode (Cometary) Commentary > Edmund Storms writes, > >> I have a hard time, Robin, understanding how a chemical bond can form >> with a Hy. The electrons are in energy states that are far removed from >> the states in normal atoms and the states are not compatible in a quantum >> sense. > > With the huge exception of another hydrino of the same redundant ground > state. In that situation a chemical bond is highly favored, no? > > Jones > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 17 09:53:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAHHrHLO024630; Thu, 17 Nov 2005 09:53:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAHHrFDN024606; Thu, 17 Nov 2005 09:53:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 09:53:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20051117175248782.BF10F940008F mwinf3209.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20051117175249.009cee7c pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 17:52:49 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Defense contractor reticent on anti-gravity discovery Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id jAHHqt34024273 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64469 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 08:36 am 17/11/2005 -0600, Steven wrote: > Vorts, > > This may be of interest to some on this group: > > http://pesn.com/2005/11/16/9600203_New_Nazi_Bell/ Except from the above reference:- ===================================================== "If I learned one lesson from John Dering," states Ventura, "then it would be this: these effects are all around us, all of the time – but on such a small scale that they're either undetectable or mistaken for something else. The effects are non-linear, however, which means that when you pass a threshold in scale or power, they suddenly produce massive results. Thus, the inventor who claims to see an anomalous effect that he can't replicate may not be a liar – he may simply be tapping into Unified Field Theory Effects that he doesn't understand." ===================================================== "...tapping into..." the Beta-atmosphere, no doubt. 8-) If materials are held together by external pressure then Rotating a disc at high velocity is going to produce axial compressive strains and radial tensile strain as well as a volumetric strain. These are a reflection of a change in the differential Beta-atmosphere pressure. Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 17 11:51:54 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAHJp1E2004967; Thu, 17 Nov 2005 11:51:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAHJosJ6004834; Thu, 17 Nov 2005 11:50:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 11:50:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cathode (Cometary) Commentary Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 06:50:16 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <01a401c5eacc$8a84e3c0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <437B76A0.5000102@ix.netcom.com> <01d601c5eae5$1e18cf80$6401a8c0@NuDell> <437B92A2.5020100@ix.netcom.com> <870on1120a6hmb03ptjgf1t9t6i7amh6he@4ax.com> <437CB045.8090207@ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: <437CB045.8090207 ix.netcom.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta03ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.59.28] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Thu, 17 Nov 2005 19:50:15 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id jAHJoMjU004464 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64470 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Edmund Storms's message of Thu, 17 Nov 2005 09:31:01 -0700: Hi, [snip] > Well Robin, as you eventually concluded, rapid collapse of a local >superconducting site would not supply the necessary energy to make a >neutron because local conservation of energy would still have to occur. > Energy might be concentrated in a few individual electrons, but the >total number of electrons having this energy would be small, hence the >total available energy would also be small. Frankly, I do not see how >sufficient energy can be concentrated in a region of space occupied by a >proton to allow it to be converted into a neutron. As far as I know, no >demonstrated example of such conversion has been published. Do you know >of any demonstrated example of a proton being converted to a neutron >using an electron of any size? [snip] All electron capture reactions are examples of this, including the rare case of electron capture by two protons in the Sun, leading to D formation. However to be fair, these all result in more kinetic energy being released than consumed, while the reaction above consumes more kinetic energy than it releases. To find an example of this, I expect one would have to look at particle beam experiments. Mind you, the number of conversions is also limited by the fact that it's a weak force mediated interaction, so it's going to be much more rare than I previously thought. You win, I think I'll drop this. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 17 11:59:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAHJxHkp009463; Thu, 17 Nov 2005 11:59:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAHJxGIL009437; Thu, 17 Nov 2005 11:59:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 11:59:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cathode (Cometary) Commentary Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 06:58:53 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <0qnpn153cg9sn6dv5h038747t9mmmfsitq 4ax.com> References: <01a401c5eacc$8a84e3c0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <437B76A0.5000102@ix.netcom.com> <01d601c5eae5$1e18cf80$6401a8c0@NuDell> <437B92A2.5020100@ix.netcom.com> <437CA755.8050403@ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: <437CA755.8050403 ix.netcom.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta03sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.59.28] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Thu, 17 Nov 2005 19:58:52 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id jAHJwv6q009242 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64471 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Edmund Storms's message of Thu, 17 Nov 2005 08:52:53 -0700: Hi, [snip] >> Don't you believe in Hy-hydrides, or that they may bind to >> positive ions? > >I have a hard time, Robin, understanding how a chemical bond can form >with a Hy. The electrons are in energy states that are far removed from >the states in normal atoms and the states are not compatible in a >quantum sense. Normal chemistry recognizes three types of bonds, which >are ionic, covalent and metallic. Each requires the electron be removed >from the atom for some length of time. This time is longest for ionic >bonds and shortest for a metallic bond. How long can the electron >associated with a Hy be located elsewhere? 0. >How does this loss happen >without the energy lost during formation of a Hy being returned to the >electron? The loss doesn't happen at all. On the contrary it's the other ion that suffers the loss, the hydrino "suffers" a gain. The hydrinohydride is the negative ion. It can form ionic bonds with positive ions of other atoms. When forming a coating on a metal, think of it as a substitute for O--, and the layer formed as analogous to an oxide layer. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 17 12:08:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAHK7TAr017019; Thu, 17 Nov 2005 12:07:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAHK7QNn016967; Thu, 17 Nov 2005 12:07:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 12:07:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cathode (Cometary) Commentary Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 07:06:49 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <01a401c5eacc$8a84e3c0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <437B76A0.5000102@ix.netcom.com> <01d601c5eae5$1e18cf80$6401a8c0@NuDell> <437B92A2.5020100@ix.netcom.com> <437CA755.8050403@ix.netcom.com> <007401c5eb94$a6c2ab30$6401a8c0@GEH> In-Reply-To: <007401c5eb94$a6c2ab30$6401a8c0 GEH> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta03ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.59.28] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Thu, 17 Nov 2005 20:06:48 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id jAHK72sk016415 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64472 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to George Holz's message of Thu, 17 Nov 2005 11:33:33 -0500: Hi, [snip] >GH: Is the Hy-hydride bond a stronger version of the weak bond (.6 ev) >that is found in negative hydrogen ions (H-) ? Yes. > I don't know how Ed would >classify this bond but it seems to me that getting the first electron closer >to >the proton could increase this bond strength. Robin, can you clarify how >Mills explains the bond and even calculates the bond strength for >many 1/n Hy-hydrides? The bond strength between the hydrino and the second electron is based on the magnetic field attraction between the two electrons. Mills does the calculation in his book, and even provides a table of binding energies for different hydrino sizes. However this is based on radius, and given that I'm still trying to figure out which of us is right about the radius, I'm not sure yet whether or not I need to recalculate the bond strengths. (I believe he only uses magnetic field energy because the hydrino is essentially a neutral particle, hence the second electron experiences no electrical field, only the magnetic field of the first electron - that's his reasoning AFAIK). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 17 13:04:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAHL475m018146; Thu, 17 Nov 2005 13:04:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAHL46e8018127; Thu, 17 Nov 2005 13:04:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 13:04:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <437CF012.6070009 ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 14:03:14 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cathode (Cometary) Commentary References: <01a401c5eacc$8a84e3c0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <437B76A0.5000102@ix.netcom.com> <01d601c5eae5$1e18cf80$6401a8c0@NuDell> <437B92A2.5020100@ix.netcom.com> <437CA755.8050403@ix.netcom.com> <0qnpn153cg9sn6dv5h038747t9mmmfsitq@4ax.com> In-Reply-To: <0qnpn153cg9sn6dv5h038747t9mmmfsitq 4ax.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64473 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to Edmund Storms's message of Thu, 17 Nov 2005 08:52:53 > -0700: > Hi, > [snip] > >>>Don't you believe in Hy-hydrides, or that they may bind to >>>positive ions? >> >>I have a hard time, Robin, understanding how a chemical bond can form >>with a Hy. The electrons are in energy states that are far removed from >>the states in normal atoms and the states are not compatible in a >>quantum sense. Normal chemistry recognizes three types of bonds, which >>are ionic, covalent and metallic. Each requires the electron be removed > >>from the atom for some length of time. This time is longest for ionic > >>bonds and shortest for a metallic bond. How long can the electron >>associated with a Hy be located elsewhere? > > > 0. > > >>How does this loss happen >>without the energy lost during formation of a Hy being returned to the >>electron? > > > The loss doesn't happen at all. On the contrary it's the other ion > that suffers the loss, the hydrino "suffers" a gain. The > hydrinohydride is the negative ion. It can form ionic bonds with > positive ions of other atoms. When forming a coating on a metal, > think of it as a substitute for O--, and the layer formed as > analogous to an oxide layer. OK, you propose that two or more electrons occupy fractional quantum levels at the same proton. Presumably the same kind of limitations exist here as in normal quantum levels, i.e. no two electrons can occupy the same quantum level. These electrons can not leave the proton to interact with other atoms but their charge is "felt" by positive ions with which an ionic compound is formed. Is this what you have in mind? I expect you would also conclude that such compounds are very good insulators and would interact chemically only with material in which ions are present. In other words, no metallic or covalent interaction would be possible. Regards, Ed > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > Competition provides the motivation, > Cooperation provides the means. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 17 13:30:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAHLTiIX001974; Thu, 17 Nov 2005 13:30:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAHLTgds001914; Thu, 17 Nov 2005 13:29:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 13:29:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 16:29:11 -0500 From: George Holz Subject: Re: Cathode (Cometary) Commentary To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <00e101c5ebbd$f38e4220$6401a8c0 GEH> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1506 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1506 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <01a401c5eacc$8a84e3c0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <437B76A0.5000102 ix.netcom.com> <01d601c5eae5$1e18cf80$6401a8c0@NuDell> <437B92A2.5020100 ix.netcom.com> <437CA755.8050403 ix.netcom.com> <007401c5eb94$a6c2ab30$6401a8c0@GEH> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64474 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi, snip RVS:> The bond strength between the hydrino and the second electron is > based on the magnetic field attraction between the two electrons. > Mills does the calculation in his book, and even provides a table > of binding energies for different hydrino sizes. However this is > based on radius, and given that I'm still trying to figure out > which of us is right about the radius, I'm not sure yet whether or > not I need to recalculate the bond strengths. > > (I believe he only uses magnetic field energy because the hydrino > is essentially a neutral particle, hence the second electron > experiences no electrical field, only the magnetic field of the > first electron - that's his reasoning AFAIK). > Of course, the spherical symmetry and neutrality make the concept and calculation obvious. I was hindered here by still basing my thinking on my point electron/ZPE based theory of Hydrinos. So the bond energy would be dependent on the distance between a Hydrino orbitsphere and a normal orbitsphere with magnetic dipoles aligned? Regards, George Holz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 17 14:43:01 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAHMgWf0016717; Thu, 17 Nov 2005 14:42:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAHMgVir016709; Thu, 17 Nov 2005 14:42:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 14:42:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: ThomasClark123 aol.com Message-ID: <128.691e58ee.30ae6137 aol.com> Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 17:41:59 EST Subject: Re: Defense contractor reticent on anti-gravity discovery To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: ThomasClark123 aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1132267319" X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5039 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64475 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -------------------------------1132267319 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/17/2005 12:54:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, f.grimer grimer2.freeserve.co.uk writes: At 08:36 am 17/11/2005 -0600, Steven wrote: > Vorts, > > This may be of interest to some on this group: > > http://pesn.com/2005/11/16/9600203_New_Nazi_Bell/ Thanks for the above link which discusses the Nazi Bell Antigravity idea that is very similar to the Carl Sagan Contact antigravity device. There is a book which I have purchased called Occult Ether Physics: Tesla's Hidden Space Propulsion System and the Conspiracy to Conceal It by William Lyne (Paperback - November 1998), which shows a picture of a Nazi gyroscope device purchased in a Texas military surplus store, used in the Nazi flying saucer turtles that were actually used in warfare against US planes. The antigravity devices used jammed out normal magnetic fields so that a special gyroscope had to connected to a device that was set to due north before the flying saucer was put into antigravity mode. The book also shows how both low frequency emfs are used with high frequency emfs to create an antigravity effect in the ship. The book above describes the vortex physics detailed in mathematical notation by Konstantine Meyl in his book scalar waves which describes how the antigravity devices work. Einstein's relativity theory overlooks the above ideas which are based on theories of objectivity and prove that an aether does exist which has been measured as the book above details and gives measurement data. Baron Von Volsung, http://www.rhfweb.com/baron, Email: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html President Thomas D. Clark, Email: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html, Personal Web Page: http://www.rhfweb.com/personal New Age Production's Inc., http://www.rhfweb.com/newage Star Haven Community Services, at http://www.rhfweb.com/sh Radiation Health Foundation Trust at http://www.rhfweb.com/ Making a difference one person at a time Get informed. Inform others. -------------------------------1132267319 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In a message dated 11/17/2005 12:54:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, f.grim= er grimer2.freeserve.co.uk writes:
At 08:36 am 17/11/2005 -0600, Steven wrote:
> Vorts,
>
> This may be of interest to some on this gro= up:
>
> http://pesn.com/2005/11/16/9600203_New_Nazi_Bell/=
Thanks for the above link which discusses the Nazi Bell Antigravity ide= a that is very similar to the Carl Sagan Contact antigravity device. &n= bsp; There is a book which I have purchased called Occult Ether Physic= s: Tesla's Hidden Space Propulsion System and the Conspiracy to Conceal It
by William Ly= ne (Paperback - November 1998), which shows a picture of a Naz= i gyroscope device purchased in a Texas military surplus store,  used i= n the Nazi flying saucer turtles that were actually used in warfare aga= inst US planes.  The antigravity devices used jammed out normal magneti= c fields so that a special gyroscope had to connected to a device that was s= et to due north before the flying saucer was put into antigravity mode. = ; The book also shows how both low frequency emfs are used with high frequen= cy emfs to create an antigravity effect in the ship.  The book above de= scribes the vortex physics detailed in mathematical notation by Konstantine=20= Meyl in his book scalar waves which describes how the antigravity devices wo= rk.  Einstein's relativity theory overlooks the above ideas which are b= ased on theories of objectivity and prove that an aether does exist which ha= s been measured as the book above details and gives measurement data.
 
Baron Von Volsung, http://www.rhfweb.com/baron, Email: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html
President Thomas D. Clark,= Email: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html,
Pers= onal Web Page: http://www.rhfweb.com/personal
New Age Productio= n's Inc., http://www.rhfweb.com/newage
Star Haven Community Service= s, at = http://www.rhfweb.com/sh
Radiation Health Foundation Trust at http://www.rhfweb= .com/

Making a difference one person at a time
Get informed= . Inform others.
-------------------------------1132267319-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 17 19:38:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAI3bZTQ032231; Thu, 17 Nov 2005 19:37:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAI3bWRi032206; Thu, 17 Nov 2005 19:37:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 19:37:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cathode (Cometary) Commentary Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 14:37:08 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <5hgqn1h7cp5i3h0cj14gr0c4722rmm97ti 4ax.com> References: <01a401c5eacc$8a84e3c0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <437B76A0.5000102@ix.netcom.com> <01d601c5eae5$1e18cf80$6401a8c0@NuDell> <437B92A2.5020100@ix.netcom.com> <437CA755.8050403@ix.netcom.com> <0qnpn153cg9sn6dv5h038747t9mmmfsitq@4ax.com> <437CF012.6070009@ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: <437CF012.6070009 ix.netcom.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta01ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.59.28] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Fri, 18 Nov 2005 03:37:07 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id jAI3bCdr032023 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64476 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Edmund Storms's message of Thu, 17 Nov 2005 14:03:14 -0700: Hi, [snip] >> The loss doesn't happen at all. On the contrary it's the other ion >> that suffers the loss, the hydrino "suffers" a gain. The >> hydrinohydride is the negative ion. It can form ionic bonds with >> positive ions of other atoms. When forming a coating on a metal, >> think of it as a substitute for O--, and the layer formed as >> analogous to an oxide layer. > >OK, you propose that two or more electrons occupy fractional quantum >levels at the same proton. Presumably the same kind of limitations exist >here as in normal quantum levels, i.e. no two electrons can occupy the >same quantum level. These electrons can not leave the proton to >interact with other atoms but their charge is "felt" by positive ions >with which an ionic compound is formed. Is this what you have in mind? With reservation[1], yes. That's Mills' definition of hydrinohydride AFAIK. (Poor name IMO). > I expect you would also conclude that such compounds are very good >insulators and would interact chemically only with material in which >ions are present. In other words, no metallic or covalent interaction >would be possible. Indeed, I would make that assumption, with the same reservation mentioned above, i.e. [1] it is true for Hydrinohydride that has shrunk past about level 3-4. However for the *first couple of levels* the second electron is only bound very weakly, so *this* hyh (my abbrev.) is actually a strong reductor, akin to a metal atom. (According to Mills this is paradoxically also true for levels beyond about 22, and after 24 the second electron doesn't bind at all). The strongest bond is for level 16 if I remember correctly. BTW, note that if hit by an energetic particle, the hyh can be knocked out of its lattice, and deprived of its second electron (this may require a second collision, depending on the energy of the colliding particle), so that it once again becomes a plain hydrino. Once this has happened, the hydrino can undergo further shrinkage reactions. Also of interest is that hyh because it is very small, sits much closer to its positive ion in its lattice. If this ion is itself small e.g. B+++ then the chances of a fusion reaction are enhanced enormously (many orders of magnitude), particularly as the two are continually in close proximity, so that the confinement time in the Lawson criterion is effectively infinite. Of course the greater the shrinkage of the hyh, the shorter will be the half-life of such reactions. IOW looking at the Lawson criterion, the density is huge, and the confinement time is unlimited, but the temperature is low. Another thing to consider is that the hyh may actually sit *inside* the electron shells of the other positive ion, effectively displacing an existing electron. If this is possible, because of its huge mass, it should orbit the positive ion effectively at the radius of the hyh. (Analogous to "muonic molecules", but where the negative muon is replaced by hyh). Actually, it probably couldn't get that close, because by then the attractive force exerted on the second electron by the nucleus of the positive ion would remove it from the hydrino. This is unfortunately an aspect that Mills appears unwilling to entertain. It would however IMO provide a very neat explanation for "heat after death". Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 17 19:41:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAI3f4Wh001144; Thu, 17 Nov 2005 19:41:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAI3f3Ft001112; Thu, 17 Nov 2005 19:41:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 19:41:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cathode (Cometary) Commentary Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 14:40:36 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <01a401c5eacc$8a84e3c0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <437B76A0.5000102@ix.netcom.com> <01d601c5eae5$1e18cf80$6401a8c0@NuDell> <437B92A2.5020100@ix.netcom.com> <437CA755.8050403@ix.netcom.com> <007401c5eb94$a6c2ab30$6401a8c0@GEH> <00e101c5ebbd$f38e4220$6401a8c0@GEH> In-Reply-To: <00e101c5ebbd$f38e4220$6401a8c0 GEH> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta03ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.59.28] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Fri, 18 Nov 2005 03:40:35 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id jAI3eelE000914 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64477 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to George Holz's message of Thu, 17 Nov 2005 16:29:11 -0500: Hi, [snip] >Of course, the spherical symmetry and neutrality make the concept >and calculation obvious. I was hindered here by still basing my thinking >on my point electron/ZPE based theory of Hydrinos. So the bond >energy would be dependent on the distance between a Hydrino >orbitsphere and a normal orbitsphere with magnetic dipoles aligned? Something like that. You have basically reached my limits now, so you will need to look it up in Mills' book if you want to go any deeper. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 17 20:01:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAI41Qk2008333; Thu, 17 Nov 2005 20:01:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAI41P7g008321; Thu, 17 Nov 2005 20:01:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 20:01:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001201c5ebf4$b19f4580$1c037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Cathode ( Cometary) Commentary Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 22:01:02 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000E_01C5EBC2.667E4060" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.5 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,HTML_40_50,HTML_MESSAGE,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64478 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C5EBC2.667E4060 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000F_01C5EBC2.667FC700" ------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C5EBC2.667FC700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank Robin wrote.. IOW looking at the Lawson criterion, the density is huge, and the confinement time is unlimited, but the temperature is low. = =20 Another thing to consider is that the hyh may actually sit *inside* the electron shells of the other positive ion, effectively displacing an existing electron. If this is possible, because of its huge mass, it should orbit the positive ion effectively at the radius of the hyh. (Analogous to "muonic molecules", but where the negative muon is replaced by hyh). Actually, it probably couldn't get that close, because by then the attractive force exerted on the second electron by the nucleus of the positive ion would remove it from the hydrino.=20 This is unfortunately an aspect that Mills appears unwilling to entertain. It would however IMO provide a very neat explanation for "heat after death". Interesting explanation of temperature. Some our work in liquid vortex = studies reveal a differential of temperatures that give me pause. Would = like for Fred and Jones to enter their comments. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C5EBC2.667FC700 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
 

 

Robin wrote..

IOW looking at the Lawson criterion, the density is huge, and=20 the
confinement time is unlimited, but the temperature is=20 low.           &nb= sp;     

Another=20 thing to consider is that the hyh may actually sit
*inside* the = electron=20 shells of the other positive ion,
effectively displacing an existing=20 electron. If this is possible,
because of its huge mass, it should = orbit the=20 positive ion
effectively at the radius of the hyh. (Analogous to=20 "muonic
molecules", but where the negative muon is replaced by=20 hyh).
Actually, it probably couldn't get that close, because by then=20 the
attractive force exerted on the second electron by the nucleus = of
the=20 positive ion would remove it from the hydrino.

This is = unfortunately an=20 aspect that Mills appears unwilling to
entertain. It would however = IMO=20 provide a very neat explanation
for "heat after death".

 

Interesting explanation of temperature.  Some our work in liquid = vortex=20 studies reveal a differential of temperatures that give me pause. = Would=20 like for Fred  and Jones to enter their comments.

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C5EBC2.667FC700-- ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C5EBC2.667E4060 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000d01c5ebf4$b10e0200$1c037841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C5EBC2.667E4060-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 18 07:53:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAIFr5ec030724; Fri, 18 Nov 2005 07:53:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAIFqtOK030635; Fri, 18 Nov 2005 07:52:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 07:52:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <437DF850.6030405 ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 08:50:40 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cathode (Cometary) Commentary References: <01a401c5eacc$8a84e3c0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <437B76A0.5000102@ix.netcom.com> <01d601c5eae5$1e18cf80$6401a8c0@NuDell> <437B92A2.5020100@ix.netcom.com> <437CA755.8050403@ix.netcom.com> <0qnpn153cg9sn6dv5h038747t9mmmfsitq@4ax.com> <437CF012.6070009@ix.netcom.com> <5hgqn1h7cp5i3h0cj14gr0c4722rmm97ti@4ax.com> In-Reply-To: <5hgqn1h7cp5i3h0cj14gr0c4722rmm97ti 4ax.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <2ExAaD.A.neH.WjffDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64479 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thanks Robin, the situation is getting clearer. However, I still have some questions. In summary, the model you are describing assumes one electron is in a fractional quantum state (Hy) and the additional electron is in a normal quantum level. Presumably, the normal quantum level has been modified by the presence of a charge between it and the positive nucleus, if we assume a classical structure. As a result, the "normal" electron is less tightly held depending on the level of the Hy electron, as you note. This would mean the the chemical bond between Hy- and M+ would be less energetic than if "normal" hydrogen were involved. Apparently, when the lowest Hy levels are occupied, the atom becomes essentially inert because the proton charge is almost totally neutralized by an electron that can not be lost or modified. As for heat after death, I suggest a simpler explanation is possible. While electrolysis is ongoing, deuterium is available to the active surface from the current. However, when current is stopped, deuterium is available from the interior during the deloading process. Therefore, life after death would be most apparent when a massive Pd sample is used. Regards, Ed Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to Edmund Storms's message of Thu, 17 Nov 2005 14:03:14 > -0700: > Hi, > [snip] > >>>The loss doesn't happen at all. On the contrary it's the other ion >>>that suffers the loss, the hydrino "suffers" a gain. The >>>hydrinohydride is the negative ion. It can form ionic bonds with >>>positive ions of other atoms. When forming a coating on a metal, >>>think of it as a substitute for O--, and the layer formed as >>>analogous to an oxide layer. >> >>OK, you propose that two or more electrons occupy fractional quantum >>levels at the same proton. Presumably the same kind of limitations exist >>here as in normal quantum levels, i.e. no two electrons can occupy the >>same quantum level. These electrons can not leave the proton to >>interact with other atoms but their charge is "felt" by positive ions >>with which an ionic compound is formed. Is this what you have in mind? > > > With reservation[1], yes. That's Mills' definition of > hydrinohydride AFAIK. > (Poor name IMO). > > >> I expect you would also conclude that such compounds are very good >>insulators and would interact chemically only with material in which >>ions are present. In other words, no metallic or covalent interaction >>would be possible. > > > Indeed, I would make that assumption, with the same reservation > mentioned above, i.e. > [1] it is true for Hydrinohydride that has shrunk past about level > 3-4. However for the *first couple of levels* the second electron > is only bound very weakly, so *this* hyh (my abbrev.) is actually > a strong reductor, akin to a metal atom. > (According to Mills this is paradoxically also true for levels > beyond about 22, and after 24 the second electron doesn't bind at > all). > The strongest bond is for level 16 if I remember correctly. > > BTW, note that if hit by an energetic particle, the hyh can be > knocked out of its lattice, and deprived of its second electron > (this may require a second collision, depending on the energy of > the colliding particle), so that it once again becomes a plain > hydrino. Once this has happened, the hydrino can undergo further > shrinkage reactions. > > Also of interest is that hyh because it is very small, sits much > closer to its positive ion in its lattice. If this ion is itself > small e.g. B+++ then the chances of a fusion reaction are enhanced > enormously (many orders of magnitude), particularly as the two are > continually in close proximity, so that the confinement time in > the Lawson criterion is effectively infinite. Of course the > greater the shrinkage of the hyh, the shorter will be the > half-life of such reactions. > IOW looking at the Lawson criterion, the density is huge, and the > confinement time is unlimited, but the temperature is low. > > Another thing to consider is that the hyh may actually sit > *inside* the electron shells of the other positive ion, > effectively displacing an existing electron. If this is possible, > because of its huge mass, it should orbit the positive ion > effectively at the radius of the hyh. (Analogous to "muonic > molecules", but where the negative muon is replaced by hyh). > Actually, it probably couldn't get that close, because by then the > attractive force exerted on the second electron by the nucleus of > the positive ion would remove it from the hydrino. > > This is unfortunately an aspect that Mills appears unwilling to > entertain. It would however IMO provide a very neat explanation > for "heat after death". > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > Competition provides the motivation, > Cooperation provides the means. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 18 08:49:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAIGmuwZ024162; Fri, 18 Nov 2005 08:49:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAIGmsfD024140; Fri, 18 Nov 2005 08:48:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 08:48:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <03f601c5ec5f$e9060020$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: OT: killer flu or killer drug? Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 08:48:31 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <-mMWhB.A.I5F.2XgfDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64480 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Whatever you do to fight flu this year - DO NOT let your children or grandchildren take Tamiflu. Apparently, Tamiflu has a serious psychotic side-effect for children and adults, but especially for children, which "should have" been recognized by CDC/FDA. The FDA had already said that it was concerned that 32 severe psychiatric episode, hallucinations and abnormal behavior, had been reported in children who took Tamiflu - but even so - FDA has steadfastly refused to acknowledge the recent suicide and cardiac problems, or to pull the drug. It has pulled many drugs on far less reported problems. Is there a high level cover-up - and does this have any connection to the Gilead/Rumsfeld payola (and future-scandal) ? This is following the deaths of many children in Japan and China - from of all things: cardiac arrest and suicide - in China two youngsters committed suicide within hours of taking Tamiflu by jumping out of windows... and how often do kids have cardiac arrest? For at least three years, these kinds of "drug-induced psychiatric symptoms" have been highlighted in "Worst Pills, Best Pills News." and the CDC and FDA should have known that Tamiflu poses and unusual risk to children, because of its derivation. After all, this drug is apparently concocted directly from an amantadine precursor chemical (amantadine is a precursor drug of Tamiflu and is used in the treatment of Parkinson's syndrome). Serotonin is the important brain chemical associated with both Parkinson's and the tendency towards suicide. Tamiflu apparently has both serotonin uptake inhibition effects, and also the counter effect, which have been down-played by our own FDA in their zeal to promote this drug, which is curious since foreign experts say that it is ineffective for this strain of bird-flu. Of course our FDA is seriously trying to go public now to "cover its a_s " and squelch the criticism by denying everything. "FDA says no clear link between Roche's Tamiflu and Japan deaths" http://www.forbes.com/markets/feeds/afx/2005/11/18/afx2345708.html What do you expect them to say? To anyone with half a brain, this kind of cause and effect link to the suicide is far clearer than any beneficial link to alleviating bird-flu. There is none. There are few positives and many negatives. Why not an immediate recall of Rumsbucks, oops I mean Tamiflu? But I suppose that one part of becoming a high level paid government medical expert these days involves giving up the skeptical half (once the high level decision has been made, that is)... Get in line or get out... GENEVA, Nov. 18 (Xinhuanet) -- United States and European regulators have launched an investigation into the safety of Tamiflu after the deaths of 12 Japanese children who took the anti-flu drug... But both US and European officials warned that it was difficult to tell whether the drug manufactured by the Swiss pharmaceutical giant Roche had played a role in the fatalities. Tamiflu, invented by the US company Gilead and licensed to Roche in 1996, has [supposedly] proven effective against influenza A and B and H5N1 bird flu virus, which is threatening the world... [no reference to the "proven effective" is given] From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 18 09:20:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAIHJjr0006532; Fri, 18 Nov 2005 09:20:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAIHJh20006513; Fri, 18 Nov 2005 09:19:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 09:19:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <001b01c5ec64$348763a0$1b027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Cathode( Cometary)Commentary Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 11:19:15 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0017_01C5EC31.E9157F60"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.5 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64481 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C5EC31.E9157F60 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0018_01C5EC31.E9170600" ------=_NextPart_001_0018_01C5EC31.E9170600 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankEd Strorms wrote.. Thanks Robin, the situation is getting clearer. However, I still have=20 some questions. In summary, the model you are describing assumes one=20 electron is in a fractional quantum state (Hy) and the additional=20 electron is in a normal quantum level. Presumably, the normal quantum=20 level has been modified by the presence of a charge between it and the=20 positive nucleus, if we assume a classical structure. As a result, the=20 "normal" electron is less tightly held depending on the level of the Hy=20 electron, as you note. This would mean the the chemical bond between=20 Hy- and M+ would be less energetic than if "normal" hydrogen were=20 involved. Apparently, when the lowest Hy levels are occupied, the atom=20 becomes essentially inert because the proton charge is almost totally=20 neutralized by an electron that can not be lost or modified. As for heat after death, I suggest a simpler explanation is possible.=20 While electrolysis is ongoing, deuterium is available to the active=20 surface from the current. However, when current is stopped, deuterium=20 is available from the interior during the deloading process. Therefore,=20 life after death would be most apparent when a massive Pd sample is = used. Regards, Ed Having a problem in mentally visualizing the event that stems from the = lattice impression in my mind. I keep trying to reach the thought of a picture of a bonded substrate = existing rather than pictured as a " surface" per se. Seems that two or = more events exists in parallel while only one event is what may be = described as " visible' in the mind. Comes from my having a mechanical = rather than a scientist's mind. In our liquid vortex studies we have to keep several events in mind = such as that the vortex has another vortex within that has an opposite = rotation. This inner vortex keeps confounding us because it does not = play fair . In reviewing our test logs, we keep having to remind = ourselves of the lack of textbook information,. The closest we can come = to latest available theory is .. surprise..!! the vortex-L group. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0018_01C5EC31.E9170600 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Ed Strorms wrote..

Thanks Robin, the situation is getting clearer.  However, I = still have=20
some questions. In summary, the model you are describing assumes one =
electron is in a fractional quantum state (Hy) and the additional=20
electron is in a normal quantum level.  Presumably, the normal = quantum=20
level has been modified by the presence of a charge between it and = the=20
positive nucleus, if we assume a classical structure.  As a = result, the=20
"normal" electron is less tightly held depending on the level of the = Hy=20
electron, as you note.  This would mean the the chemical bond = between=20
Hy- and M+ would be less energetic than if "normal" hydrogen were=20
involved.  Apparently, when the lowest Hy levels are occupied, = the atom=20
becomes essentially inert because the proton charge is almost = totally=20
neutralized by an electron that can not be lost or = modified.

As for=20 heat after death, I suggest a simpler explanation is possible.
While = electrolysis is ongoing, deuterium is available to the active =
surface from=20 the current.  However, when current is stopped, deuterium
is = available=20 from the interior during the deloading process. Therefore,
life = after death=20 would be most apparent when a massive Pd sample is=20 used.

Regards,
Ed

 

Having a problem in mentally visualizing the event that stems from = the=20 lattice impression in my mind.

 I keep trying to reach the thought of a picture of a = bonded=20 substrate existing  rather than pictured as a " surface" = per se.=20 Seems that two or more events exists in parallel while only one event is = what=20 may be described as " visible' in the mind. Comes from my having  a = mechanical rather than a scientist's mind.

 In our liquid vortex studies we have to keep several events in = mind=20 such as that the vortex has another vortex within that has an opposite = rotation.=20 This inner vortex keeps confounding us because it does not play fair . = In=20 reviewing our test logs, we keep having to remind ourselves of the lack = of=20 textbook information,. The closest we can come to latest available = theory is ..=20 surprise..!! the vortex-L group.

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_0018_01C5EC31.E9170600-- ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C5EC31.E9157F60 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001601c5ec64$339d78d0$1b027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C5EC31.E9157F60-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 18 09:27:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAIHQi1H009669; Fri, 18 Nov 2005 09:26:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAIHQfLO009635; Fri, 18 Nov 2005 09:26:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 09:26:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051118120209.042875b0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 12:26:11 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: OT: killer flu or killer drug? In-Reply-To: <03f601c5ec5f$e9060020$6401a8c0 NuDell> References: <03f601c5ec5f$e9060020$6401a8c0 NuDell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64482 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene reports the latest news from Japan, which has dominated headlines there, along with a story that a noted architect has falsified structural testing and several of his buildings are in danger of collapse: http://www.asahi.com/english/Herald-asahi/TKY200511180337.html >The FDA had already said that it was concerned that 32 severe psychiatric >episode, hallucinations and abnormal behavior, had been reported in >children who took Tamiflu . . . >This is following the deaths of many children in Japan and China - from of >all things: cardiac arrest and suicide . . . Many? How many is many? 12, to be exact, none by suicide. How many thousands of children do you think die from the flu every year in Japan? Granted, this number is significant, because only about 225 children commit suicide in Japan annually, according to Earl Kinmonth (who knows his stuff). See: http://www.glocom.org/special_topics/social_trends/20040902_trends_s82/ Caution is in order, serious side effects can occur, and no drug should be used unless the patient is seriously ill or at risk. On the other hand we should not abandon the use of a life saving drug because a few patients have had adverse results. If your child has cancer and has not been vaccinated, or for some other reason is at an unusual risk of dying of the flu, you would be a fool not to use tamiflu. You have to look at the big picture. Risk assessment is complicated and difficult, and panic does not make it any easier. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 18 09:41:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAIHeQMr019627; Fri, 18 Nov 2005 09:40:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAIHeOiP019589; Fri, 18 Nov 2005 09:40:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 09:40:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <042101c5ec67$18ef74e0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <03f601c5ec5f$e9060020$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051118120209.042875b0@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: OT: killer flu or killer drug? Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 09:39:58 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64483 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" > Many? How many is many? 12, to be exact, none by suicide. Not so. http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/11/15/MNG29FO9K71.DTL >How many thousands of children do you think die from the flu >every year in Japan? None have yet died from bird flu. Jones Score: Tamiflu 12 Bird Flu 0 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 18 11:18:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAIJI6GM010429; Fri, 18 Nov 2005 11:18:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAIJI36Q010355; Fri, 18 Nov 2005 11:18:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 11:18:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051118132359.03f8feb0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 14:17:19 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: OT: killer flu or killer drug? In-Reply-To: <042101c5ec67$18ef74e0$6401a8c0 NuDell> References: <03f601c5ec5f$e9060020$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051118120209.042875b0 pop.mindspring.com> <042101c5ec67$18ef74e0$6401a8c0 NuDell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <3Y9vVB.A.ThC.ojifDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64484 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >>How many thousands of children do you think die from the flu every year >>in Japan? > >None have yet died from bird flu. Obviously not, since no one in Japan has been infected by it yet. What is your point? The 12 patients must have been suffering from other serious viral infections, or they would never have been given the drug in the first place. Note that at least one of the 4 reported heart attacks was caused by acute pancreatitis. There is no evidence Tamiflu played a role. Yes, seriously ill children do die of heart attacks; it happens all the time. >Score: Tamiflu 12 Bird Flu 0 This comparison is ridiculous. You have no idea how many lives have been saved by Tamiflu. I do not know either, but I am sure it is in the thousands. Doctors are not fools, and they do not proscribe powerful drugs for no reason. What irks me about this message is the notion that doctors and other experts are fools who are easily duped. If cold fusion teaches us anything, it is that the experts are usually right. People who do hands-on research and publish results, or doctors and nurses providing first-line medical care know what they are doing, and they understand risks. When they say something works, they are nearly always right. Critics from outside the field are usually flakes. (In the case of cold fusion these outsiders include people like Huizenga, who is no doubt an expert in his own field, but not electrochemistry or calorimetry. Flakes are not flakey about every subject; just the ones they attack for no logical reason.) The other day Steve Jones -- the professor at BYU who would very much like to be considered the discoverer of cold fusion -- wrote a paper claiming that the Twin Towers in New York were destroyed by explosives implanted in between the floors, not by crashing airplanes flown by Al Qaeda terrorists. He claimed the fire from the aircraft could not have caused the buildings to fall straight down the way they did. This notion is widespread among the conspiracy theory fruitcakes. There are dozens of reasons why this is preposterous, and I will not attempt to list them, but one outstanding reason is that most of the world's top engineering experts looked very closely at the events. They examined the physical evidence, they wrote papers, they held meetings, they ran computer simulations. Before the buildings collapsed, one of these experts warned the New York Police Department that the buildings would fall within hours at most. Not one of these experts was surprised or baffled by the events. In short, the result was exactly what they expected, and they confirmed this with most intense and thorough investigation in the history of building disasters. These people know what they are doing, and fruitcakes from outside the field, such as Steve Jones, know nothing. This is also why Jones refuses to believe a single report of cold fusion excess heat. He carries around his own personal reality distortion field, that lets him believe whatever weird notion pops into his head, even when hundreds of research papers written by world-class experts with high Sigma data prove he is wrong. It is a testament to the flexibility of the human mind. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 18 11:46:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAIJkLaB026352; Fri, 18 Nov 2005 11:46:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAIJkKVf026330; Fri, 18 Nov 2005 11:46:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 11:46:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <045501c5ec78$b152c730$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <03f601c5ec5f$e9060020$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051118120209.042875b0@pop.mindspring.com> <042101c5ec67$18ef74e0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051118132359.03f8feb0@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: OT: killer flu or killer drug? Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 11:45:55 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64485 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" >>None have yet died from bird flu. > Obviously not, since no one in Japan has been infected by it > yet. Preposterous. You do not know that - and it is certainly unlikely >What is your point? Plain and simple. Tamiflu does not cure or prevent avian flu. That is fact. It is a palliative in the same sense that vitamin C is a palliative, only it is an expensive drug and with well-know serious psychotic risks, and may push young people towards suicide - which risks have been palyed-down. And morevover Tamiflu should not be recommended without thorough testing against **vitamins C** for effectiveness. I suspect is is significantly less effective. >The 12 patients must have been suffering from other serious viral >infections, That is an absurd and baseless claim. In the Japanese case, they were just as likely to have been healthy robust children of rich parents who could afford Tamiflu. In the Chinese case, you obviously failed to read the articles online about the suicides there. >or they would never have been given the drug in the first place. That indicates that you failed to read the literature, which is clear from you other comments as well. Many of the Chinese suicides were the result of forced inoculation in high risk areas. Google "China suicide Tamiflu" there are already 160,000 hits and this is just the start of a very expensive lesson for Roche. >>Score: Tamiflu 12 Bird Flu 0 > This comparison is ridiculous. You have no idea how many lives > have been saved by Tamiflu. But you already claimed (falsely) that no one in Japan has been infected. No one can be saved if no one has been infected. Par-for-the-course for the lack of logic and careful research in these comments. Or, is what are you saying now that Tamiflu has kept them from being infected? That would be News to everyone! >I do not know either, but I am sure it is in the thousands. >Doctors are not fools, and they do not proscribe powerful drugs >for no reason. Many doctors are dedicated, selfless and wonderful people, and they tend to practice medicine and stay out of the headlines. Many doctors are fools and in it for the money. They tend to end up in government. > What irks me about this message is the notion that doctors and > other experts are fools who are easily duped. If cold fusion > teaches us anything. What irks me about your message is the notion that doctors and other experts are always honest, omniscient heroes who do not take paybacks from drug companies and are not easily duped. If cold fusion teaches us anything. it is that having an advanced degree in an "admirable" profession is not indication of either integrity nor intellectual brilliance. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 18 12:21:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAIKKvm3011358; Fri, 18 Nov 2005 12:21:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAIKKtNO011337; Fri, 18 Nov 2005 12:20:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 12:20:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051118145140.04e70350 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 15:20:26 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: OT: killer flu or killer drug? In-Reply-To: <045501c5ec78$b152c730$6401a8c0 NuDell> References: <03f601c5ec5f$e9060020$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051118120209.042875b0 pop.mindspring.com> <042101c5ec67$18ef74e0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051118132359.03f8feb0 pop.mindspring.com> <045501c5ec78$b152c730$6401a8c0 NuDell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <-nOFaD.A.AxC.mejfDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64486 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >>Obviously not, since no one in Japan has been infected by it yet. > >Preposterous. You do not know that - and it is certainly unlikely Okay, let me put it this way. I read the Japanese newspapers and I watch the seven o'clock news most days, but I do not recall any reports of anyone in Japan being infected by bird flu. There have been several chicken flocks infected by it, and these have always been featured on the national news, so I think I would have noticed if someone had died. One farmer committed suicide because his flock was infected and he tried to hide the fact for a few days. >>What is your point? > >Plain and simple. Tamiflu does not cure or prevent avian flu. That is fact. It is not a fact. It is a working hypothesis that some experts believe may be true and others dispute. >>The 12 patients must have been suffering from other serious viral infections, > >That is an absurd and baseless claim. No, this is what is reported in the Japanese news and by the U.S. and Japanese national health advisories. >In the Japanese case, they were just as likely to have been healthy robust >children of rich parents who could afford Tamiflu. Tamiflu is a prescription medicine. Rich parents cannot procure it without a doctor's help, and a doctor who prescribed it for a healthy person for no reason would be committing serious malpractice. He & the parents would also be stark staring crazy. Do you think rich parents would subject their children to, let us say, chemotherapy for no reason? >>or they would never have been given the drug in the first place. > >That indicates that you failed to read the literature, which is clear from >you other comments as well. Many of the Chinese suicides were the result >of forced inoculation in high risk areas. Tamiflu is not inoculated. It is administered orally. It is also a very expensive course of treatment, and it is only effective when the patient is known to be exposed or is starting to get sick. The effects of it wear off so there would be no point to administering ahead of time the way a vaccination is administered. All in all, it is not something the Chinese could or would force on their population. Again, the Chinese authorities may be communist dictators but they are not fools. Note that 33 million people have taken Tamiflu. If it does cause problems in some patients, those problems are rare, which explains why they have not been detected so far. > Google "China suicide Tamiflu" there are already 160,000 hits and this > is just the start of a very expensive lesson for Roche. Do you really think that a vital drug that saves thousands of lives a year should be pulled from the market because it may have killed a few dozen people? In a normal year, influenza kills 30,000 to 50,000 people in the U.S. alone, including 5% to 10% of the adults were hospitalized with severe cases. (Granted, many of these patients are elderly or they have cancer, or some other problem that exacerbates the illness.) Without Tamiflu and other modern treatments we would be back to conditions in the 1950s, and 100,000 patients would die in a normal year. Obviously, new side effect warnings for Tamiflu must be published, and doctors must be more cautious. But do you really think we should let irrational panic and lawsuits kill an extra ~50,000 Americans a year? >But you already claimed (falsely) that no one in Japan has been infected. Where do you get your information from? Mars? I watch NHK. >No one can be saved if no one has been infected. Tamiflu is used for any form of influenza, not only bird flu. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 18 12:41:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAIKetUn021291; Fri, 18 Nov 2005 12:41:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAIKeq7k021256; Fri, 18 Nov 2005 12:40:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 12:40:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001001c5ec80$3dbf3f80$cd037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: O.T. killer flu or killer drug? Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 14:39:57 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000C_01C5EC4D.F2722150"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.6 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,HTML_MESSAGE,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64488 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C5EC4D.F2722150 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000D_01C5EC4D.F2722150" ------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C5EC4D.F2722150 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankLink to story, http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story.asp?siteid=3Dmktw&dist=3Dmoreover&g= uid=3D{55A74C58-9AF4-4A01-8EC5-D5C2157FA369} Something obviously set off a small earthquake to cause Roche stock to = be halted for a short time. Either they know something OR Roche knows how to stabilize a = market swing. Much work is underway to validate claims or disprove them.. wouldn't = want to be Roche if any of this sticks to the wall. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C5EC4D.F2722150 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Link to story,

http://www.mar= ketwatch.com/news/story.asp?siteid=3Dmktw&dist=3Dmoreover&guid=3D= {55A74C58-9AF4-4A01-8EC5-D5C2157FA369}

Something=20 obviously set off a small earthquake to cause Roche stock to be halted = for a=20 short time.

Either they know something=20 OR            = ; Roche=20 knows how to stabilize a market swing.

Much work is underway to validate claims or disprove them.. wouldn't = want to=20 be Roche if any of this sticks to the wall.

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C5EC4D.F2722150-- ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C5EC4D.F2722150 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000b01c5ec80$3cfa1ac0$cd037841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C5EC4D.F2722150-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 18 12:42:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAIKfm2o022305; Fri, 18 Nov 2005 12:42:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAIKffHg022189; Fri, 18 Nov 2005 12:41:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 12:41:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <047f01c5ec80$64755fb0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <03f601c5ec5f$e9060020$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051118120209.042875b0@pop.mindspring.com> <042101c5ec67$18ef74e0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051118132359.03f8feb0@pop.mindspring.com> <045501c5ec78$b152c730$6401a8c0@NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051118145140.04e70350@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: OT: killer flu or killer drug? Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 12:41:02 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64489 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" >>>Obviously not, since no one in Japan has been infected by it >>>yet. >>Preposterous. You do not know that - and it is certainly >>unlikely > Okay, let me put it this way. I read the Japanese newspapers and > I watch the seven o'clock news most days, but I do not recall any reports of anyone in Japan being infected by bird flu. Quick google search. Guess you missed this story from last year: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/12/22/health/main662490.shtml It would be very surprising if there had been no infections in the year since this story appeared. I don't care to do a thorough search but this one seems fairly clear. >>Plain and simple. Tamiflu does not cure or prevent avian flu. >>That is fact. > It is not a fact. It is a working hypothesis that some experts > believe may be true and others dispute. Show me evidence of one real expert who actually says that Tamilflu CURES anything. You cannot. > Tamiflu is not inoculated. It is administered orally. You should at least do a minimum search, Jed. It is administered both ways, and the Chinese prefer the injection because many recipients there. out of poverty, will fake swallowing and then resell the oral capsules. They can get a week's wages or more for it. > Do you really think that a vital drug that saves thousands of > lives a year should be pulled from the market because it may > have killed a few dozen people? There is no evidence that it has saved a single life, let alone thousands. > Tamiflu is used for any form of influenza, not only bird flu. And has never been proven to be as effective as vitamin C. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 18 13:00:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAIL02J2000302; Fri, 18 Nov 2005 13:00:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAIL00jL032719; Fri, 18 Nov 2005 13:00:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 13:00:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051118155125.034d5260 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 15:59:28 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: OT: killer flu or killer drug? In-Reply-To: <047f01c5ec80$64755fb0$6401a8c0 NuDell> References: <03f601c5ec5f$e9060020$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051118120209.042875b0 pop.mindspring.com> <042101c5ec67$18ef74e0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051118132359.03f8feb0 pop.mindspring.com> <045501c5ec78$b152c730$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051118145140.04e70350 pop.mindspring.com> <047f01c5ec80$64755fb0$6401a8c0 NuDell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64490 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >Quick google search. Guess you missed this story from last year: >http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/12/22/health/main662490.shtml Ah, so at least one person gotten it. And it wasn't just the farmer who killed himself, his wife also committed suicide. Yes, I did overlook that. But I assure you, rich people in Japan are not stuffing Tamiflu down their children's throats because one person got sick last year (and survived). >Show me evidence of one real expert who actually says that Tamilflu CURES >anything. You cannot. My doctor says he has saved several patient's lives with it. Mainly people with cancer. He also says healthy people are driving him crazy asking for the stuff. >There is no evidence that it has saved a single life, let alone thousands. You sound a lot like Steve Jones. No evidence of excess heat. No evidence, no evidence, no evidence. Repetition does not make it true. I will grant, sick patients are less conclusive than calorimeters, since most patients recover anyway, and you never know exactly what cures them. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 18 13:08:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAIL06Nh000451; Fri, 18 Nov 2005 13:07:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAIKd9rW020261; Fri, 18 Nov 2005 12:39:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 12:39:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cathode (Cometary) Commentary Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 07:38:34 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <01a401c5eacc$8a84e3c0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <437B76A0.5000102@ix.netcom.com> <01d601c5eae5$1e18cf80$6401a8c0@NuDell> <437B92A2.5020100@ix.netcom.com> <437CA755.8050403@ix.netcom.com> <0qnpn153cg9sn6dv5h038747t9mmmfsitq@4ax.com> <437CF012.6070009@ix.netcom.com> <5hgqn1h7cp5i3h0cj14gr0c4722rmm97ti@4ax.com> <437DF850.6030405@ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: <437DF850.6030405 ix.netcom.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta02ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.59.28] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Fri, 18 Nov 2005 20:38:33 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id jAIKcflr019791 Resent-Message-ID: <3QRcN.A.W8E.qvjfDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64487 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Edmund Storms's message of Fri, 18 Nov 2005 08:50:40 -0700: Hi, [snip] >Thanks Robin, the situation is getting clearer. However, I still have >some questions. In summary, the model you are describing assumes one >electron is in a fractional quantum state (Hy) and the additional >electron is in a normal quantum level. Here you contradict yourself. See your own words here below[1]. Just to be clear, both electrons are in fractional quantum states according to Mills. (Otherwise the binding energy of the second electron wouldn't increase with shrinkage level). (If I'm not mistaken the energy levels of the two electrons are very different, but the physical location is almost identical according to Mills - i.e. there is very little difference in radius - which come to think of it, doesn't make a lot of sense to me). > Presumably, the normal quantum >level has been modified by the presence of a charge between it and the >positive nucleus, if we assume a classical structure. As a result, the >"normal" electron is less tightly held depending on the level of the Hy >electron, as you note. This would mean the the chemical bond between >Hy- and M+ would be less energetic than if "normal" hydrogen were >involved. Apparently, when the lowest Hy levels are occupied, the atom >becomes essentially inert because the proton charge is almost totally >neutralized by an electron that can not be lost or modified. Since the second electron has a "binding energy curve" (for want of a better term), it would be helpful here if you elucidate your remarks with level numbers. ("lowest" and "highest" are terms I try to avoid, because they depend on one's point of view. I.e. is 1 the highest or lowest level?) > >As for heat after death, I suggest a simpler explanation is possible. >While electrolysis is ongoing, deuterium is available to the active >surface from the current. However, when current is stopped, deuterium >is available from the interior during the deloading process. Therefore, >life after death would be most apparent when a massive Pd sample is used. Also possible. I didn't say the explanation I gave was the only one, I just said that it was "neat". Reality will be determined by experiment. [snip] >Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > >> In reply to Edmund Storms's message of Thu, 17 Nov 2005 14:03:14 >> -0700: [snip] [1] >>>OK, you propose that two or more electrons occupy fractional quantum >>>levels at the same proton. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 18 13:35:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAILYdVL022879; Fri, 18 Nov 2005 13:34:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAILYaBO022846; Fri, 18 Nov 2005 13:34:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 13:34:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <049701c5ec87$d2b8e580$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <03f601c5ec5f$e9060020$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051118120209.042875b0@pop.mindspring.com> <042101c5ec67$18ef74e0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051118132359.03f8feb0@pop.mindspring.com> <045501c5ec78$b152c730$6401a8c0@NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051118145140.04e70350@pop.mindspring.com> <047f01c5ec80$64755fb0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051118155125.034d5260@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: OT: killer flu or killer drug? Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 13:34:14 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64491 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" >>Show me evidence of one real expert who actually says that >>Tamilflu CURES anything. You cannot. > My doctor says he has saved several patient's lives with it. > Mainly people with cancer. He also says healthy people are > driving him crazy asking for the stuff. I have no doubt that he has prolonged the life of cancer patients for a year of two until the cancer has its way. I have no doubt that any less-ill patient who hears this story, even without cancer, immediately wants the drug. Fine, predictable, and just like Roche wants it to be (follow the buck)except, of course, this is generally meaningless information. The really important questions for society are not these quaint and orchestrated anecdotes - but go much further into two-fold sustainablility and honesty issues: first - would high-dose C have accomplished even more, perhaps even ameliorating the cancer itself? ...and/or... would using any natural but non-promoted cure be worth the good Doctor loosing his yearly all-expense-paid junket to Jamaica, just to buck the establishment and save his patients a little expense, and/or to even promote that fact - as a few more courageous doctors have done. According to some medical professionals, those not suckling off the Roche-teat, the two most powerful drugs known to mankind are aspirin and vitamin C, yet these two don't come with the perks and fringe-benefits of golf outings to the Carribean. > Repetition does not make it true. But...if finding truth is important to society, it sure beats the heck out of payola... Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 18 13:51:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAILowH0031756; Fri, 18 Nov 2005 13:51:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAILos1M031697; Fri, 18 Nov 2005 13:50:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 13:50:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <437E4C84.6030409 ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 14:49:56 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cathode (Cometary) Commentary References: <01a401c5eacc$8a84e3c0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <437B76A0.5000102@ix.netcom.com> <01d601c5eae5$1e18cf80$6401a8c0@NuDell> <437B92A2.5020100@ix.netcom.com> <437CA755.8050403@ix.netcom.com> <0qnpn153cg9sn6dv5h038747t9mmmfsitq@4ax.com> <437CF012.6070009@ix.netcom.com> <5hgqn1h7cp5i3h0cj14gr0c4722rmm97ti@4ax.com> <437DF850.6030405@ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <-azhJB.A.CvH.9ykfDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64492 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to Edmund Storms's message of Fri, 18 Nov 2005 08:50:40 > -0700: > Hi, > [snip] > >>Thanks Robin, the situation is getting clearer. However, I still have >>some questions. In summary, the model you are describing assumes one >>electron is in a fractional quantum state (Hy) and the additional >>electron is in a normal quantum level. > > > Here you contradict yourself. See your own words here below[1]. Yea, I changed my mind based on the way you described how the Hy is thought to behave. > Just to be clear, both electrons are in fractional quantum states > according to Mills. (Otherwise the binding energy of the second > electron wouldn't increase with shrinkage level). Yes, that is what I initially assumed. However, for a compound to form, the normal quantum levels must be involved. The Hy levels might be filled by one or more electrons, but these only give the assembly a negative charge, rather like a really big electron. Bonds are formed by electrons interacting between similar quantum levels. This is something the Hy electrons can not do. However these Hy electrons would modify the energetics of normal quantum levels and cause such compounds to have unusual properties without the Hy electrons being directly involved. Because the charge is stable, the Hy should act like a really heavy electron when focused by electric and magnetic fields. In fact, if they were caused to bombard a metal plate, they could be used to build up very high static potentials. Unlike electron, they could not leak away by conduction. This might produce some unusual effects. > (If I'm not mistaken the energy levels of the two electrons are > very different, but the physical location is almost identical > according to Mills - i.e. there is very little difference in > radius - which come to think of it, doesn't make a lot of sense to > me). > > >>Presumably, the normal quantum >>level has been modified by the presence of a charge between it and the >>positive nucleus, if we assume a classical structure. As a result, the >>"normal" electron is less tightly held depending on the level of the Hy >>electron, as you note. This would mean the the chemical bond between >>Hy- and M+ would be less energetic than if "normal" hydrogen were >>involved. Apparently, when the lowest Hy levels are occupied, the atom >>becomes essentially inert because the proton charge is almost totally >>neutralized by an electron that can not be lost or modified. > > > Since the second electron has a "binding energy curve" (for want > of a better term), it would be helpful here if you elucidate your > remarks with level numbers. > ("lowest" and "highest" are terms I try to avoid, because they > depend on one's point of view. I.e. is 1 the highest or lowest > level?) I'm assuming Hy1 is a level closest to the Bohr zero level and Hy22 is a level that releases the most energy when it is occupied, in which the electron occupies an orbit close to the proton. regards, Ed > > >>As for heat after death, I suggest a simpler explanation is possible. >>While electrolysis is ongoing, deuterium is available to the active >>surface from the current. However, when current is stopped, deuterium >>is available from the interior during the deloading process. Therefore, >>life after death would be most apparent when a massive Pd sample is used. > > > Also possible. I didn't say the explanation I gave was the only > one, I just said that it was "neat". Reality will be determined by > experiment. > [snip] > >>Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >> >> >>>In reply to Edmund Storms's message of Thu, 17 Nov 2005 14:03:14 >>>-0700: > > [snip] > [1] > >>>>OK, you propose that two or more electrons occupy fractional quantum >>>>levels at the same proton. > > [snip] > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > Competition provides the motivation, > Cooperation provides the means. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 18 14:01:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAIM1BNg004424; Fri, 18 Nov 2005 14:01:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAIM18EQ004394; Fri, 18 Nov 2005 14:01:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 14:01:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051118164253.03f51710 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 17:00:43 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: OT: killer flu or killer drug? In-Reply-To: <049701c5ec87$d2b8e580$6401a8c0 NuDell> References: <03f601c5ec5f$e9060020$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051118120209.042875b0 pop.mindspring.com> <042101c5ec67$18ef74e0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051118132359.03f8feb0 pop.mindspring.com> <045501c5ec78$b152c730$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051118145140.04e70350 pop.mindspring.com> <047f01c5ec80$64755fb0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051118155125.034d5260 pop.mindspring.com> <049701c5ec87$d2b8e580$6401a8c0 NuDell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64493 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >I have no doubt that he has prolonged the life of cancer patients for a >year of two until the cancer has its way. What do you mean prolong? Tamiflu does nothing for cancer. It only works on influenza. In a couple of weeks you are either dead or recovered. Lots of people live with cancer for years. It depends on the type. > I have no doubt that any less-ill patient who hears this story, even > without cancer, immediately wants the drug. Why?!? It makes you throw up. It give you bronchitis, sleeplessness and vertigo. I wouldn't want it unless I was seriously sick. If you are in the hospital with the flu, you have one chance in ten of waking up dead. That's serious, and no, they can't make it go away with aspirin or vitamin C. It kills 50,000 a year. If aspirin magically cured it, we would have found that out long ago. >But...if finding truth is important to society, it sure beats the heck out >of payola... Do you really, seriously think that most of the doctors who prescribed 33 million doses of the stuff were paid off?!? Where did they get all that money? - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 18 14:20:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAIMJRP3016326; Fri, 18 Nov 2005 14:19:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAIMJPcf016291; Fri, 18 Nov 2005 14:19:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 14:19:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <33420527.1132352343712.JavaMail.root elwamui-hybrid.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 22:19:03 +0000 (GMT+00:00) From: Akira Kawasaki Reply-To: Akira Kawasaki To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Fw: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday November 18, 2005 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64494 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Forwarded Message----- From: What's New Sent: Nov 18, 2005 8:46 PM To: BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday November 18, 2005 WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 18 Nov 05 Washington, DC 1. ISS BUDGET: WORLD'S MOST EXPENSIVE LABORATORY DROPS RESEARCH. The $16.5B NASA spending bill Congress sent to the President, with an extra $50M for Hubble repairs, is actually a little more than the President asked for. Michael Griffin has the final say on a Hubble repair mission, but he won't decide until after the shuttle flight set for May. Meanwhile, preparing for an unlikely Moon-Mars mission is costly. NASA says it will save $344M by halting life- sciences research on the ISS. That was about the only scientific research left. So what's this turkey for? A NASA spokesman told the Orlando Sentinel that lengthy visits to the station are the key to preparing astronauts for a return to the Moon. It seems more likely that research on the ISS was of little value anyway. This is one more sign that human spaceflight is headed for extinction. 2. INTELLIGENT DESIGN: PAT ROBERTSON SHOULD HAVE BEEN A WITNESS. Last week WN commented on the spectacle of televangelist Robertson calling down the wrath of God on a bucolic village in Pennsylvania. Kitzmiller v. Dover School District, which wound up testimony two weeks ago, turns on the issue of whether Intelligent Design is a scientific theory, as its proponents insist, or religion in drag. Several WN readers noted that this influential Christian evangelist has demonstrated that ID is religion. If Kitzmiller is appealed, as seems likely, WN urges that Robertson be called to testify. 3. ACADEMIC DECLINE: GROWING INFLUENCE OF EVANGELICAL CHRISTIANITY? A front page story in Monday's Wall Street Journal describes the spread of college courses questioning evolution. The driving force is the Templeton Foundation, which provides start-up funding for guest speakers, library materials, research and conferences. Between 1994 and 2002 Templeton funded nearly 800 courses. Over a 3-year period Guillermo Gonzalez at Iowa State collected $58,000 http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN05/wn060305.html. ID should be taught in college, but it should not be confused with science. 4. VATICAN DEFINES: THE CHIEF ASTRONOMER SAYS ID IS NOT SCIENCE. Earlier today, the Rev. George Coyne, the director of the Vatican Observatory said that "intelligent design" is not science and does not belong in science classrooms. This seemed to put the chief astronomer firmly on the side of Cardinal Poupard, head of the Pontifical Council for Culture and orthogonal to Austrian Cardinal Schoenborn http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN05/wn070805.html, and perhaps to Pope Benedict XVI, as we saw last week. 5. WEIGHT LOSS: NIH STUDY CONFIRMS THAT "THE PHYSICS PLAN" WORKS. A one year study, backed by NIH, found that the weight-loss drug Merida is more than twice as effective if accompanied by a program of diet and exercise. Why am I not surprised? This is, after all the Physics Plan, first proposed in WN six years ago: "Burn more calories than you consume and we guarantee you will lose weight," http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN00/wn022500.html. It is the only weight-loss plan endorsed by the First Law of Thermodynamics. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.bobpark.org What's New is moving to a different listserver and our subscription process has changed. To change your subscription status please visit this link: http://listserv.umd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=bobparks-whatsnew&A=1 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 18 14:42:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAIMfSUl029101; Fri, 18 Nov 2005 14:41:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAIMfQS3029088; Fri, 18 Nov 2005 14:41:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 14:41:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051118173605.04369200 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 17:40:58 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: LENR-CANR welcomes a growing international audience Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64495 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Cold fusion may be dead in the water in the US, but it seems to be attracting more attention overseas lately. See: http://lenr-canr.org/News.htm - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 18 15:39:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAINcxiw026096; Fri, 18 Nov 2005 15:39:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAINcuQk026063; Fri, 18 Nov 2005 15:38:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 15:38:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20051118153448.0298ee90 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 15:35:03 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: LENR-CANR welcomes a growing international audience In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20051118173605.04369200 pop.mindspring.com> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051118173605.04369200 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64496 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Good work, Jed s At 02:40 PM 11/18/2005, you wrote: >Cold fusion may be dead in the water in the US, but it seems to be >attracting more attention overseas lately. See: > >http://lenr-canr.org/News.htm > >- Jed > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 18 16:44:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAJ0iMWw028755; Fri, 18 Nov 2005 16:44:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAJ0iKoC028729; Fri, 18 Nov 2005 16:44:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 16:44:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051118194317.034bfeb0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 19:43:53 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Appleby et al. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64497 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Old a compelling. See: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/ApplebyAJanomalousc.pdf - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 18 20:00:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAJ3xZlB022589; Fri, 18 Nov 2005 19:59:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAJ3xYGd022575; Fri, 18 Nov 2005 19:59:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 19:59:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cathode (Cometary) Commentary Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 14:59:13 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <01a401c5eacc$8a84e3c0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <437B76A0.5000102@ix.netcom.com> <01d601c5eae5$1e18cf80$6401a8c0@NuDell> <437B92A2.5020100@ix.netcom.com> <437CA755.8050403@ix.netcom.com> <0qnpn153cg9sn6dv5h038747t9mmmfsitq@4ax.com> <437CF012.6070009@ix.netcom.com> <5hgqn1h7cp5i3h0cj14gr0c4722rmm97ti@4ax.com> <437DF850.6030405@ix.netcom.com> <437E4C84.6030409@ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: <437E4C84.6030409 ix.netcom.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta02ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.59.28] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Sat, 19 Nov 2005 03:59:12 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id jAJ3xGMX022503 Resent-Message-ID: <7gVWzD.A.ngF.mMqfDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64498 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Edmund Storms's message of Fri, 18 Nov 2005 14:49:56 -0700: Hi, [snip] >Yea, I changed my mind based on the way you described how the Hy is >thought to behave. Note that most of the behavioral aspects are my interpretation, not necessarily Mills' opinion. > >> Just to be clear, both electrons are in fractional quantum states >> according to Mills. (Otherwise the binding energy of the second >> electron wouldn't increase with shrinkage level). > >Yes, that is what I initially assumed. However, for a compound to form, > the normal quantum levels must be involved. Why? In a "perfect" ionic compound, solidity results from the binding energy of positive and negative ions. IOW the attractive force between ions of opposite charge pulls the ensemble together. There is no real need for electrons to be interchanged at a local level as would be the case in a covalent bond. Granted, with normal substances there is more often a "polar" bond than a pure ionic bond. In short, the hyh "bond" with a positive ion would be the most extreme ionic bond imaginable. You may calculate the degree of electron sharing if you wish, but given an ionization potential of around 70 eV for hyh[n=1/16], I think you will find that it is so negligible as to be immeasurable. >The Hy levels might be >filled by one or more electrons, but these only give the assembly a >negative charge, rather like a really big electron. ...or a very small negative ion. >Bonds are formed by >electrons interacting between similar quantum levels. Bonds are formed by two forces. Electrostatic, and magnetic. Pure covalent bonds are pure magnetic bonds. Pure Ionic bonds are pure electrostatic bonds. Polar bonds are a mixture of the two. In the case of hyh, because the second electron is so tightly bound, the bond is the purest electrostatic bond of all compounds. IMO. >This is something >the Hy electrons can not do. However these Hy electrons would modify >the energetics of normal quantum levels and cause such compounds to have >unusual properties without the Hy electrons being directly involved. Yes, this is also possible, particularly if the hyh can replace a deeper electron from the normal shell. Such an atom may simply appear to the outside world as an the original atom with a proton converted to a neutron, and a neutron added. E.g. if one started out with K39 and hyh replaced an inner electron, then the result may look like Ar40, both chemically and for SIMS. If D were used iso H, then it would look like Ar41. Because of this possibility of "fooling" SIMS, it's imperative that NAA also be used to identify new atoms in CF experiments. (Tightly bound hydrinos can't fool NAA). >Because the charge is stable, the Hy should act like a really heavy >electron when focused by electric and magnetic fields. In fact, if they >were caused to bombard a metal plate, they could be used to build up >very high static potentials. Unlike electron, they could not leak away >by conduction. This might produce some unusual effects. I doubt it, because, while the hyh may not be able to leak away, the electron it replaces can leak away. This would still leave a neutral charge over all. [snip] >> Since the second electron has a "binding energy curve" (for want >> of a better term), it would be helpful here if you elucidate your >> remarks with level numbers. >> ("lowest" and "highest" are terms I try to avoid, because they >> depend on one's point of view. I.e. is 1 the highest or lowest >> level?) > >I'm assuming Hy1 is a level closest to the Bohr zero level and Hy22 is a >level that releases the most energy when it is occupied, in which the >electron occupies an orbit close to the proton. . Yes, but it wasn't the definition of 1 or 22 that was ambiguous, but rather the definition of high and low. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 18 20:25:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAJ4P5VM003016; Fri, 18 Nov 2005 20:25:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAJ4P3K1003005; Fri, 18 Nov 2005 20:25:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 20:25:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <006001c5ecc1$289ba760$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <03f601c5ec5f$e9060020$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051118120209.042875b0@pop.mindspring.com> <042101c5ec67$18ef74e0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051118132359.03f8feb0@pop.mindspring.com> <045501c5ec78$b152c730$6401a8c0@NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051118145140.04e70350@pop.mindspring.com> <047f01c5ec80$64755fb0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051118155125.034d5260@pop.mindspring.com> <049701c5ec87$d2b8e580$6401a8c0@NuDell> <6.2.1.2.2.20051118164253.03f51710@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: OT: killer flu or killer drug? Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 20:24:39 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64499 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" > Do you really, seriously think that most of the doctors who > prescribed 33 million doses of the stuff were paid off?!? Absolutely yes! ... and I like the interrobang-and-a-half ... Your naiveté is either tongue-in cheek or a symptom of misguided trust. Read: "As Doctors Write Prescriptions, Drug Companies Write Checks by Gardiner Harris , New York Times June 27th, 2004 http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=11395 Read Death by Medicine: http://www.nutritioninstituteofamerica.org/research/DeathByMedicine/DeathByMedicine1.htm Read about "Fraud and the Pharmaceutical Industry" and the past prosecution of Roche: http://www.uow.edu.au/arts/sts/bmartin/dissent/documents/health/pharmfraud.html "Where did they get all that money?" Ha ! Isn't it obvious. By charging hundreds of times more than the drug costs to manufacture. At a US cost of $300 tp $4000 per complete (2 week) treatment for Tamiflu (28 capsules or 7 injections), the drug itself costs pennies to make, so there is $290-$3,990 + dollars to play with - some going to R&D but most to obscene profits, various kickbacks, and numerous marketing scams which feed money back to dotors based on how much they prescribe. All this talk about high cost needed to support R&D is overblown. Roche spent not a dime on Tamilfu R&D and Gilead returned the whole investment in 6 months. Roche will spend more on marketing and kickbacks this year than on basic research, and are very proud of the fact that they ushered in a new age of "psychopharmacology." They were complicit in getting millions of housewives hooked on Valium, which netted them more than the GNP of a few Latin American countries. IMHO they are little more than glorified pushers, and the world would be healthier if they never existed. Severe regulation for this industry is needed - starting with the absolute requirement of proof that the drug performs significantly better than nutritional therapy. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 19 01:01:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAJ90e6i006434; Sat, 19 Nov 2005 01:00:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAJ90cEm006412; Sat, 19 Nov 2005 01:00:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 01:00:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cathode (Cometary) Commentary Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 20:00:09 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <6gitn1tqdmhvtotmaerdh01u9442j55vhf 4ax.com> References: <01a401c5eacc$8a84e3c0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <437B76A0.5000102@ix.netcom.com> <01d601c5eae5$1e18cf80$6401a8c0@NuDell> In-Reply-To: <01d601c5eae5$1e18cf80$6401a8c0 NuDell> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta03ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.59.28] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Sat, 19 Nov 2005 09:00:08 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id jAJ90KlQ006172 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64500 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Wed, 16 Nov 2005 11:37:01 -0800: Hi, [snip] >BTW for those (from Oz ;-) who are sure to correct some of my past >posted details (and I appreciate that), and since my original >rough calculation for expected di-hydrino density was too hasty, >here is something based on what we know about H2 - with the >assumption that liquid Hy2 (Hy2 being the di-hydrino) is very >similar to liquid H2 except in melting point. I expected the >melting point for N=1/2 to be over 1000 K and the others to be >solid, but I am certain that there will be a wide divergence of >opinion as to those numbers and as to the phase change points. Indeed. Since the phase change point depends on van der Waals forces which are higher order derivatives of the electrostatic and magnetic forces, I'm not even going to hazard a guess. (My mental models don't handle higher orders very well ;) [snip] >Since the Oort cloud will contain few cations, This isn't necessarily so. For a small hyh, just about anything else may look like a cation. (If it's got a nucleus, I'll take it! ;) [snip] >Based then on extending the H2 model, liquid n=1/3 hydrinos should >weigh in at 1.89 gm/cc and n=1/4 would be 4.48 and n=1/7 which >Mills claims to have samples of (but in the form of ionic bound >chemical hydrides) would be 24 gm/cc - about the density of >uranium. > >Note however this important detail - that even though the density >of shrunken di-hydrino molecules would be every high, the same >does not apply to hydrino hydrides (ionic bonding), since the >(more shrunken variety) hydrino would probably be actually located >most of the time *inside* the orbital cloud (not unusual) and >likely around the k-shell of the resultant hydride (unusual), >which would be only slightly larger, and perhaps even less dense >than before. Indeed, or as I mentioned in my other email, the resultant atom may just end up looking like an isotope of a different element. > >Nevertheless, I cannot imagine this material, even in the first >shrinkage state, staying gaseous at STP. And I still think many >hydrinos should be found in ocean minerals, particularly the >alkalis, and that could be the Mills' catalyst connection. Why >sodium would not be a catalyst "carrier" (i.e and active Mills >catalyst) is not certain. Perhaps many alkalis are in that >category because the nucleus is expressing a lesser positive >charge (near-field than expected). But what eliminates sodium? I hate to disappoint you, but perhaps it's because Mills is right about what forms a good catalyst? (Personally, I happen to think he's been a bit too liberal in what he allows, but I think he is closer than you are). > >Could it be that hydrino catalysts are only catalytic for one >reason - that is because they have a natural affinity for >hydrino-hydriding (with the natural population of solar-derived >hydrinos) and therefore already contain primordial amounts of >hydrinos? IOW they are not the catalyst themselves, they just >carry the primordial hydrino, which is the true catalyst. I don't think this is the primary explanation. I have my own theory, with which I will regale you another time. ;) However I think you might be correct in as much as any atom harboring hyh, might potentially yield it up. However this is only going to happen under circumstances where ionizing radiation is present. > >Given that the n=1/2 would float on water, density-wise (although >likely completely soluble) they could be anywhere, if they are >indeed of primordial (and ongoing origin) in PPM or PPB ratios - >and this is especially true of potassium salts - and in other >Mills 'catalysts' but why not sodium... hmm. Actually this may disprove my notion of deeply buried hyh. Since the only natural sodium isotope is Na23, if you bury hyh in it you would end up with what should behave as stable Ne24. But there is no such animal. Therefore we can fairly safely assume that either the whole concept is wrong, or the chemical changes are more drastic than I thought, and the resultant atom doesn't behave enough like Ne to pass for a noble gas. Perhaps hyh just heads straight for the nucleus, gets stripped of its second electron and then wanders off again. There is something wrong with this scenario energy wise, but I can't put my finger on it yet. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 19 14:21:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAJMK88n016069; Sat, 19 Nov 2005 14:20:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAJMK5Ts015975; Sat, 19 Nov 2005 14:20:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 14:20:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <437FA4DA.10005 ix.netcom.com> Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 15:19:06 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cathode (Cometary) Commentary References: <01a401c5eacc$8a84e3c0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <437B76A0.5000102@ix.netcom.com> <01d601c5eae5$1e18cf80$6401a8c0@NuDell> <437B92A2.5020100@ix.netcom.com> <437CA755.8050403@ix.netcom.com> <0qnpn153cg9sn6dv5h038747t9mmmfsitq@4ax.com> <437CF012.6070009@ix.netcom.com> <5hgqn1h7cp5i3h0cj14gr0c4722rmm97ti@4ax.com> <437DF850.6030405@ix.netcom.com> <437E4C84.6030409@ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64501 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to Edmund Storms's message of Fri, 18 Nov 2005 14:49:56 > -0700: > Hi, > [snip] > >>Yea, I changed my mind based on the way you described how the Hy is >>thought to behave. > > > Note that most of the behavioral aspects are my interpretation, > not necessarily Mills' opinion. That's ok, we might even arrive at a better understanding than he has. > > >>>Just to be clear, both electrons are in fractional quantum states >>>according to Mills. (Otherwise the binding energy of the second >>>electron wouldn't increase with shrinkage level). >> >>Yes, that is what I initially assumed. However, for a compound to form, >> the normal quantum levels must be involved. > > > Why? In a "perfect" ionic compound, solidity results from the > binding energy of positive and negative ions. IOW the attractive > force between ions of opposite charge pulls the ensemble together. > There is no real need for electrons to be interchanged at a local > level as would be the case in a covalent bond. Granted, with > normal substances there is more often a "polar" bond than a pure > ionic bond. In short, the hyh "bond" with a positive ion would be > the most extreme ionic bond imaginable. You may calculate the > degree of electron sharing if you wish, but given an ionization > potential of around 70 eV for hyh[n=1/16], I think you will find > that it is so negligible as to be immeasurable. A "normal" ionic compound results from electrons being moved from one atom to the other. For example, in making NaCl, the electron moves from the Na atom to reside for most of the time at the Cl atom. This is different from the situation with Hy, which I'm trying to understand, so be patient. When Hy is involved, the situation involves a preionized atom, so to speak, which as a negative charge that can not be removed by chemical interaction. Consequently for it to form a bond, the other atom must also be preionized to form a positive ion. Of course, this is easily done. You would propose that if Hy were bubbled through a solution of Na+ Cl- in H2O, a compound should form having the formula NaHy. In a similar fashion, Hy bubbled through an acid should result in HHy. In addition to ionic bonding, both compounds have the potential for some covalent bonding as electrons from the "normal" atom briefly occupy "normal" energy levels in the Hy structure. I suggest this addition of pure ionic and covalent components makes the bond exceptionally strong, not just the ionic part. I suggest the ionic part can not be any stronger than the stability of the positive ion respect to regaining its electron from other sources in the environment. Does this fit with your understanding? > > >>The Hy levels might be >>filled by one or more electrons, but these only give the assembly a >>negative charge, rather like a really big electron. > > > ...or a very small negative ion. > > >>Bonds are formed by >>electrons interacting between similar quantum levels. > > > Bonds are formed by two forces. Electrostatic, and magnetic. Pure > covalent bonds are pure magnetic bonds. Pure Ionic bonds are pure > electrostatic bonds. Polar bonds are a mixture of the two. In the > case of hyh, because the second electron is so tightly bound, the > bond is the purest electrostatic bond of all compounds. IMO. No, I don't agree. The positive ion can get an electron from many sources other than the Hy. Consequently, the bond is no more stable than any other pure ionic bond. Thermodynamic stability is based on the components of the compound being returned to their elemental state. Returning NaHy to its elements would be equivalent to adding an electron to the Na+ and doing nothing with the Hy, because its state can not be changed. Hy is essentially a pure element when viewed from a chemical viewpoint. > > >>This is something >>the Hy electrons can not do. However these Hy electrons would modify >>the energetics of normal quantum levels and cause such compounds to have >>unusual properties without the Hy electrons being directly involved. > > > Yes, this is also possible, particularly if the hyh can replace a > deeper electron from the normal shell. Such an atom may simply > appear to the outside world as an the original atom with a proton > converted to a neutron, and a neutron added. E.g. if one started > out with K39 and hyh replaced an inner electron, then the result > may look like Ar40, both chemically and for SIMS. > If D were used iso H, then it would look like Ar41. > Because of this possibility of "fooling" SIMS, it's imperative > that NAA also be used to identify new atoms in CF experiments. > (Tightly bound hydrinos can't fool NAA). This is an interesting possibility. The question is, can a highly reduced Hy actually act like a neutron that is stuck to an atom outside of the nucleus? On the other hand, I would expect such a structure to be so close to being neutral that interaction with the electron quantum states would not be possible. This seems to be an idea worth exploring. Would this explain the Fisher-Oriani super heavy carbon? > > >>Because the charge is stable, the Hy should act like a really heavy >>electron when focused by electric and magnetic fields. In fact, if they >>were caused to bombard a metal plate, they could be used to build up >>very high static potentials. Unlike electron, they could not leak away >>by conduction. This might produce some unusual effects. > > > I doubt it, because, while the hyh may not be able to leak away, > the electron it replaces can leak away. This would still leave a > neutral charge over all. Yes, over all. But immediately at the surface of the metal, the positive changes left behind would generate a voltage gradient. Would this gradient be large enough to do something unusual? > [snip] > >>>Since the second electron has a "binding energy curve" (for want >>>of a better term), it would be helpful here if you elucidate your >>>remarks with level numbers. >>>("lowest" and "highest" are terms I try to avoid, because they >>>depend on one's point of view. I.e. is 1 the highest or lowest >>>level?) >> >>I'm assuming Hy1 is a level closest to the Bohr zero level and Hy22 is a >>level that releases the most energy when it is occupied, in which the >>electron occupies an orbit close to the proton. > > > . Yes, but it wasn't the definition of 1 or 22 that was > ambiguous, but rather the definition of high and low. Yes, but I'm trying to show that my high is equivalent 22 and my low is equivalent to 1. Regards, Ed > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > Competition provides the motivation, > Cooperation provides the means. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 19 17:58:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAK1vfRB009170; Sat, 19 Nov 2005 17:57:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAK1vec8009159; Sat, 19 Nov 2005 17:57:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 17:57:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cathode (Cometary) Commentary Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 12:57:17 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <57ivn1p3hggjugepkngcqeo646ako968g2 4ax.com> References: <01d601c5eae5$1e18cf80$6401a8c0 NuDell> <437B92A2.5020100@ix.netcom.com> <437CA755.8050403@ix.netcom.com> <0qnpn153cg9sn6dv5h038747t9mmmfsitq@4ax.com> <437CF012.6070009@ix.netcom.com> <5hgqn1h7cp5i3h0cj14gr0c4722rmm97ti@4ax.com> <437DF850.6030405@ix.netcom.com> <437E4C84.6030409@ix.netcom.com> <437FA4DA.10005@ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: <437FA4DA.10005 ix.netcom.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta03ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.59.28] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Sun, 20 Nov 2005 01:57:16 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id jAK1vMGn009078 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64502 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Edmund Storms's message of Sat, 19 Nov 2005 15:19:06 -0700: Hi, [snip] >> Why? In a "perfect" ionic compound, solidity results from the >> binding energy of positive and negative ions. IOW the attractive >> force between ions of opposite charge pulls the ensemble together. >> There is no real need for electrons to be interchanged at a local >> level as would be the case in a covalent bond. Granted, with >> normal substances there is more often a "polar" bond than a pure >> ionic bond. In short, the hyh "bond" with a positive ion would be >> the most extreme ionic bond imaginable. You may calculate the >> degree of electron sharing if you wish, but given an ionization >> potential of around 70 eV for hyh[n=1/16], I think you will find >> that it is so negligible as to be immeasurable. > >A "normal" ionic compound results from electrons being moved from one >atom to the other. For example, in making NaCl, the electron moves from >the Na atom to reside for most of the time at the Cl atom. This is >different from the situation with Hy, which I'm trying to understand, so >be patient. When Hy is involved, the situation involves a preionized >atom, so to speak, which as a negative charge that can not be removed by >chemical interaction. Consequently for it to form a bond, the other >atom must also be preionized to form a positive ion. Essentially correct, but be careful not to confuse Hy (neutral) with what I have been designating "hyh" (Hydrinohydride) which carries a negative charge (or Hy- if you prefer that notation). >Of course, this is >easily done. You would propose that if Hy were bubbled through a >solution of Na+ Cl- in H2O, a compound should form having the formula >NaHy. >In a similar fashion, Hy bubbled through an acid should result in >HHy. This would then be the neutral dihydrino molecule. Some time back I asked Mills directly whether he thought that Hy + proton -> Hy2+ and he said that he thought it would. >In addition to ionic bonding, both compounds have the potential for >some covalent bonding as electrons from the "normal" atom briefly occupy >"normal" energy levels in the Hy structure. I suggest this addition of >pure ionic and covalent components makes the bond exceptionally strong, >not just the ionic part. Only experiment will tell. >I suggest the ionic part can not be any >stronger than the stability of the positive ion respect to regaining its >electron from other sources in the environment. Does this fit with your >understanding? I find myself forced to agree, if the Hyh is not buried within the shell structure of the positive ion. Furthermore, the statement you make must also be true of all ordinary ionic compounds. So, while reducing the positive ion with a free electron determines the upper limit of the bond strength[1], the Hyh compounds should nevertheless be stronger than other ionic compounds, because of the small size of the Hyh. [snip] >> Bonds are formed by two forces. Electrostatic, and magnetic. Pure >> covalent bonds are pure magnetic bonds. Pure Ionic bonds are pure >> electrostatic bonds. Polar bonds are a mixture of the two. In the >> case of hyh, because the second electron is so tightly bound, the >> bond is the purest electrostatic bond of all compounds. IMO. > >No, I don't agree. The positive ion can get an electron from many >sources other than the Hy. Consequently, the bond is no more stable >than any other pure ionic bond. But *no* ionic bond is stronger than the upper limit implied by neutralizing the positive ion. In short, sorted in order of "increasing bond strength", we have: 1) Normal ionic bond. 2) Hyh ionic bond. 3) Neutralization energy of positive ion by free electron(s). [snip] >This is an interesting possibility. The question is, can a highly >reduced Hy actually act like a neutron that is stuck to an atom outside >of the nucleus? That's the general concept, though it would essentially be a negatively charged "neutron", effectively reducing the atomic number by 1. This is because it would orbit the nucleus inside the K shell, so from the point of view of the electrons, the nuclear charge would be reduced by 1. (Actually I'm guessing here. The size of the hydrino is still "up in the air" somewhat as far as I'm concerned). Besides it will depend on which Hy- combines with which positive ion. >On the other hand, I would expect such a structure to >be so close to being neutral that interaction with the electron quantum >states would not be possible. This seems to be an idea worth exploring. > Would this explain the Fisher-Oriani super heavy carbon? Never heard of it. Reference? [snip] >> I doubt it, because, while the hyh may not be able to leak away, >> the electron it replaces can leak away. This would still leave a >> neutral charge over all. > >Yes, over all. But immediately at the surface of the metal, the >positive changes left behind would generate a voltage gradient. Would >this gradient be large enough to do something unusual? I suspect that here you may be confusing Hy with Hy-. If not, then I'm confused. [snip] >Yes, but I'm trying to show that my high is equivalent 22 and my low is >equivalent to 1. [snip] Ok, I can work with that. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 19 18:30:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAK2TdfQ021486; Sat, 19 Nov 2005 18:29:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAK2TcPd021481; Sat, 19 Nov 2005 18:29:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 18:29:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: halo nuclei Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 13:29:13 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.59.28] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Sun, 20 Nov 2005 02:29:11 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id jAK2THIB021380 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64503 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi, Neutrons in nuclei, have less mass than their free counterparts, in fact usually much less. Consequently they normally don't decay, unless the resultant nucleus is sufficiently more stable to provide the necessary energy. In circumstances where not quite enough energy is available for beta decay, it may be possible for a neutron to decay into a severely shrunken hydrino, that gets gently expelled from the core. If such a hydrino were then to capture a K shell electron becoming Hy-, yet remaining in orbit around the nucleus, we might have the makings of an alternative "halo nucleus". In short, perhaps some halo nuclei, are actually atoms with orbiting Hy- inside the K shell. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 19 18:39:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAK2d5aj024729; Sat, 19 Nov 2005 18:39:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAK2d3g4024707; Sat, 19 Nov 2005 18:39:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 18:39:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cathode (Cometary) Commentary Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 13:38:40 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <74ovn150vudbbm11hhl75ttst32me1je2a 4ax.com> References: <437B92A2.5020100 ix.netcom.com> <437CA755.8050403@ix.netcom.com> <0qnpn153cg9sn6dv5h038747t9mmmfsitq@4ax.com> <437CF012.6070009@ix.netcom.com> <5hgqn1h7cp5i3h0cj14gr0c4722rmm97ti@4ax.com> <437DF850.6030405@ix.netcom.com> <437E4C84.6030409@ix.netcom.com> <437FA4DA.10005@ix.netcom.com> <57ivn1p3hggjugepkngcqeo646ako968g2@4ax.com> In-Reply-To: <57ivn1p3hggjugepkngcqeo646ako968g2 4ax.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta03ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.59.28] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Sun, 20 Nov 2005 02:38:39 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id jAK2ciX3024558 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64504 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Robin van Spaandonk's message of Sun, 20 Nov 2005 12:57:17 +1100: Hi, [snip] I wrote: >Furthermore, the statement you make must also be true of all >ordinary ionic compounds. So, while reducing the positive ion with >a free electron determines the upper limit of the bond >strength[1], the Hyh compounds should nevertheless be stronger ..then promptly forgot all about the [1]. [1] Of course, by analogy, the same goes for removing an electron from the negative ion. The actual upper limit on the bond strength is then the minimum of the two possibilities. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 19 20:22:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAK4MW5Y025788; Sat, 19 Nov 2005 20:22:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAK4MVv0025749; Sat, 19 Nov 2005 20:22:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 20:22:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001a01c5ed89$f5134370$26027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Cathode( Cometary) Commentary Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 22:22:00 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0016_01C5ED57.A9D25A40" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.6 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,HTML_MESSAGE,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64505 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C5ED57.A9D25A40 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0017_01C5ED57.A9D3E0E0" ------=_NextPart_001_0017_01C5ED57.A9D3E0E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankRobin,=20 The thoughts remind me of the functions of a water softener. Resin beads = attract the hardness in water and uses salt to release the attracted = solids for flushing. There is a remarkable similarity in your description of the actions you = observe and our work in liquid vortex studies. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0017_01C5ED57.A9D3E0E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Robin,
 
The thoughts remind me of the functions of a water softener. Resin = beads=20 attract the hardness in water and uses salt to release the attracted = solids for=20 flushing.
There is a remarkable similarity in your description of the actions = you=20 observe and our work in liquid vortex studies.
 
Richard
------=_NextPart_001_0017_01C5ED57.A9D3E0E0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C5ED57.A9D25A40 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001501c5ed89$f42e1390$26027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C5ED57.A9D25A40-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 20 04:20:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAKCK4vj012914; Sun, 20 Nov 2005 04:20:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAKCK38T012897; Sun, 20 Nov 2005 04:20:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 04:20:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=Hfrb+d7AlcfHN19uYrRr0thVN04aWiJHvaXLrM8uu9XsobxjGkbNwaZ1h2VsM5lI; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200511020121940468 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: CO2 Minipower Generator? Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 05:19:40 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940a37e55b3d133f58b1dd551b9ff082552350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.218 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64506 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII At 77 F liquid CO2 has a pressure of 63.5 Atm (933 PSI) and a density of about 1.10 grams/cm^3. At STP there are 50 cm^3 of CO2 vapor per gram.An aluminum tube about 18 inches long by 1.0 inches I.D.could store about 750 grams of liquid CO2. Could one make a miniature steam engine run a minipower generator for my newly acquired laptop while I get used to doing strange things with my finger? For how long? :-) Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
At 77 F liquid CO2 has a pressure of 63.5 Atm (933 PSI) and a density of
about 1.10 grams/cm^3.
At STP there are 50 cm^3 of CO2 vapor per gram.An aluminum tube
about 18 inches long by 1.0 inches I.D.could store about 750 grams of
liquid CO2.
 
Could one make a miniature steam engine run a minipower generator for
my newly acquired laptop while I get used to doing strange things with my finger?
 
For how long?  :-)
 
Fred
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 20 05:04:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAKD4Kp9004017; Sun, 20 Nov 2005 05:04:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAKD4JBM004009; Sun, 20 Nov 2005 05:04:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 05:04:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=AvgjNKb+TJV4M8grJhhRNbHy93imPC39eaX070ubq9YMpu6H3RYBup5euGCGrMSm; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220051102013359179 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: CO2 Minipower Generator? Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 06:03:59 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94052c3164e73b81387bf81c2fb7d9d3825350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.108 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64507 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Some CO2 and other gas properties. http://www.airliquide.com/en/business/products/gases/gasdata/index.asp?GasID=26 ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 11/20/2005 5:20:20 AM Subject: Re: CO2 Minipower Generator? At 77 F liquid CO2 has a pressure of 63.5 Atm (933 PSI) and a density of about 1.10 grams/cm^3. At STP there are 50 cm^3 of CO2 vapor per gram.An aluminum tube about 18 inches long by 1.0 inches I.D.could store about 750 grams of liquid CO2. Could one make a miniature steam engine run a minipower generator for my newly acquired laptop while I get used to doing strange things with my finger? For how long? :-) Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 11/20/2005 5:20:20 AM
Subject: Re: CO2 Minipower Generator?

At 77 F liquid CO2 has a pressure of 63.5 Atm (933 PSI) and a density of
about 1.10 grams/cm^3.
At STP there are 50 cm^3 of CO2 vapor per gram.An aluminum tube
about 18 inches long by 1.0 inches I.D.could store about 750 grams of
liquid CO2.
 
Could one make a miniature steam engine run a minipower generator for
my newly acquired laptop while I get used to doing strange things with my finger?
 
For how long?  :-)
 
Fred
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 20 10:37:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAKIbO0a026525; Sun, 20 Nov 2005 10:37:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAKIbLZN026487; Sun, 20 Nov 2005 10:37:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 10:37:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4380C1C8.2030207 ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 11:34:48 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cathode (Cometary) Commentary References: <01d601c5eae5$1e18cf80$6401a8c0 NuDell> <437B92A2.5020100@ix.netcom.com> <437CA755.8050403@ix.netcom.com> <0qnpn153cg9sn6dv5h038747t9mmmfsitq@4ax.com> <437CF012.6070009@ix.netcom.com> <5hgqn1h7cp5i3h0cj14gr0c4722rmm97ti@4ax.com> <437DF850.6030405@ix.netcom.com> <437E4C84.6030409@ix.netcom.com> <437FA4DA.10005@ix.netcom.com> <57ivn1p3hggjugepkngcqeo646ako968g2@4ax.com> In-Reply-To: <57ivn1p3hggjugepkngcqeo646ako968g2 4ax.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64508 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to Edmund Storms's message of Sat, 19 Nov 2005 15:19:06 > -0700: > Hi, > [snip] > >>>Why? In a "perfect" ionic compound, solidity results from the >>>binding energy of positive and negative ions. IOW the attractive >>>force between ions of opposite charge pulls the ensemble together. >>>There is no real need for electrons to be interchanged at a local >>>level as would be the case in a covalent bond. Granted, with >>>normal substances there is more often a "polar" bond than a pure >>>ionic bond. In short, the hyh "bond" with a positive ion would be >>>the most extreme ionic bond imaginable. You may calculate the >>>degree of electron sharing if you wish, but given an ionization >>>potential of around 70 eV for hyh[n=1/16], I think you will find >>>that it is so negligible as to be immeasurable. >> >>A "normal" ionic compound results from electrons being moved from one >>atom to the other. For example, in making NaCl, the electron moves from >>the Na atom to reside for most of the time at the Cl atom. This is >>different from the situation with Hy, which I'm trying to understand, so >>be patient. When Hy is involved, the situation involves a preionized >>atom, so to speak, which as a negative charge that can not be removed by >>chemical interaction. Consequently for it to form a bond, the other >>atom must also be preionized to form a positive ion. > > > Essentially correct, but be careful not to confuse Hy (neutral) > with what I have been designating "hyh" (Hydrinohydride) which > carries a negative charge (or Hy- if you prefer that notation). So, we have three possible combinations: 1: A proton with one electron in the normal Bohr quantum state (i.e. the usual hydrogen atom) 2. A proton with one or more electrons in Mills quantum states, which would be a very stable negative Hy ion, which I would designate Hy-, Hy--, etc, depending on the number of electrons. 3. A proton with one or more electrons in Mills quantum states and zero or one electron in the usual Bohr quantum state, which would be a stable molecule. In this case the other ion would have a positive charge equal to the total number of electrons associated with the proton. If the other ion is a proton, I would designate this as HyH, which would be neutral. A corresponding compound with a Hy-- would be HyH2, or HyNa2 or HyCa, if other elements are used. Does this describe your understanding? The presence of electrons in the Hy states would, I expect, alter the energy level of the Bohr quantum states. As a result, a range of properties would be expected depending on the energy level of electrons in the other atom, how many Hy electrons were present, and what quantum levels they occupied. > > snip > > That's the general concept, though it would essentially be a > negatively charged "neutron", effectively reducing the atomic > number by 1. This is because it would orbit the nucleus inside the > K shell, so from the point of view of the electrons, the nuclear > charge would be reduced by 1. > (Actually I'm guessing here. The size of the hydrino is still "up > in the air" somewhat as far as I'm concerned). Besides it will > depend on which Hy- combines with which positive ion. > > >>On the other hand, I would expect such a structure to >>be so close to being neutral that interaction with the electron quantum >>states would not be possible. This seems to be an idea worth exploring. >> Would this explain the Fisher-Oriani super heavy carbon? > > > Never heard of it. Reference? Oriani, R.A. Anomalous Heavy Atomic Masses Produced by Electrolysis. in The Seventh International Conference on Cold Fusion. 1998. Vancouver, Canada: ENECO, Inc., Salt Lake City, UT. Fisher, J.C., Polyneutrons as agents for cold nuclear reactions. Fusion Technol., 1992. 22: p. 511. Regards, Ed snip > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 20 12:31:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAKKUluH007369; Sun, 20 Nov 2005 12:31:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAKKUhni007318; Sun, 20 Nov 2005 12:30:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 12:30:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cathode (Cometary) Commentary Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 07:30:16 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <437CA755.8050403@ix.netcom.com> <0qnpn153cg9sn6dv5h038747t9mmmfsitq@4ax.com> <437CF012.6070009@ix.netcom.com> <5hgqn1h7cp5i3h0cj14gr0c4722rmm97ti@4ax.com> <437DF850.6030405@ix.netcom.com> <437E4C84.6030409@ix.netcom.com> <437FA4DA.10005@ix.netcom.com> <57ivn1p3hggjugepkngcqeo646ako968g2@4ax.com> <4380C1C8.2030207@ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: <4380C1C8.2030207 ix.netcom.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta01ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.59.28] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Sun, 20 Nov 2005 20:30:15 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id jAKKUOr8007070 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64509 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Edmund Storms's message of Sun, 20 Nov 2005 11:34:48 -0700: Hi, [snip] >> Essentially correct, but be careful not to confuse Hy (neutral) >> with what I have been designating "hyh" (Hydrinohydride) which >> carries a negative charge (or Hy- if you prefer that notation). > >So, we have three possible combinations: > >1: A proton with one electron in the normal Bohr quantum state (i.e. the >usual hydrogen atom) Obviously correct. >2. A proton with one or more electrons in Mills quantum states, which >would be a very stable negative Hy ion, which I would designate Hy-, >Hy--, etc, depending on the number of electrons. Hy- is the only possible negative ion AFAIK. This is because the first electron (the hydrinos own electron) essentially neutralizes the protons charge, while the second electron that turns Hy into Hy- neutralizes the magnetic field of the first electron. It's as though you joined two bar magnets together with their opposing poles together, then put "keepers" on them. Most of the magnetic flux flows through the keepers directly to the other magnet completing the circle. In short there is very little noticeable external flux available to form additional bonds. This is also the true reason why S shells of all atoms are limited to two electrons. In short even though the hydrino is shrunken, it is still a spherical shell, and hence essentially an S shell. More electrons are not possible, because both magnetic and electrostatic attraction forces have been "used up", i.e. there are no more protons in the nucleus to generate electrostatic force which could "hold on to" additional electrons. >3. A proton with one or more electrons in Mills quantum states and zero >or one electron in the usual Bohr quantum state, which would be a stable >molecule. >In this case the other ion would have a positive charge equal >to the total number of electrons associated with the proton. If the >other ion is a proton, I would designate this as HyH, which would be >neutral. I believe what you are talking about here is an ionic bond between Hy- and a proton (though the wording is a little confusing). This may not exist as such, but rather as a dihydrino molecule. (Essentially a shrunken hydrogen molecule). >A corresponding compound with a Hy-- would be HyH2, or HyNa2 >or HyCa, if other elements are used. Does this describe your understanding? As mentioned above, I don't think there is any Hy ion more negative than Hy-. [snip] >> Never heard of it. Reference? > Oriani, R.A. Anomalous Heavy Atomic Masses Produced by Electrolysis. >in The Seventh International Conference on Cold Fusion. 1998. Vancouver, >Canada: ENECO, Inc., Salt Lake City, UT. > Fisher, J.C., Polyneutrons as agents for cold nuclear reactions. >Fusion Technol., 1992. 22: p. 511. Thanks. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 20 12:47:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAKKkYU5014470; Sun, 20 Nov 2005 12:46:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAKKkW9D014447; Sun, 20 Nov 2005 12:46:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 12:46:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=ix.netcom.com; b=VF7ZPkUyDZgjew3MFO6ksNvFn80KDaBrR1Yg2+VdBD1/JDntOYQhpB4OB1dl15tW; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200511020124529520 ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.1.47.0 (Windows) From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: "vortex-l" Subject: FW: Re: CO2 Minipower Generator? Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 12:45:29 -00 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d81532a57af04eb2648a822270adc968c43553614b9f64653b350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 216.175.88.150 Resent-Message-ID: <4gS1zB.A.rhD.oCOgDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64510 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII ----- Original Message ----- From: Akira Kawasaki To: Frederick Sparber Sent: 11/20/2005 8:24:37 AM Subject: Re: CO2 Minipower Generator? Nov. 20, 2005 Vortex, In the late forties, with the rage for powered model airplanes (among boys mostly), there developed many sized gas, methanol, and some Co2 powered engines. You will find them still actively traded on eBay. The Co2 engines were not too popular. They were almost curiosities in their simple and novel design. The only power source was from small (approve. 3/4"X 3") steel cylinders that were designed to supply home carbonated water from tap water. The cylinders had very high gas pressure which was eventually adapted to power pellet rifles, pistols and one shot model rocket cars, planes. It gets to be expensive power source over time. The cylinders are still available today with the standard and even elongated (4") design. The Co2 engine design point was in the cylinder head and piston. The piston head had a projection where as it approached "top dead center" in its up and down motion, the projection pushed against a ball valve in the cylinder head. This released the Co2 gas feeding into the cylinder head and powered the down stroke of the piston. This worked very well. And the engine ran about couple of minutes or so at full blast. There were no engine controls. The model planes usually ran on a free flight pattern.There was a problem. With so much gas being released the engine quickly became frosted with all the ambient heat being sucked IN. This caused the engine to freeze up after extensive use of cylinders. I suppose an electric generator could be designed to run off of an much improved Co2 powered engine to power your laptop. Perhaps it could be designed to run for extended lengths of time. The only problem would be in chasing after the laptop as it buzzes around your room. Sincerely, -ak- ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 11/20/2005 12:20:19 PM Subject: Re: CO2 Minipower Generator? At 77 F liquid CO2 has a pressure of 63.5 Atm (933 PSI) and a density of about 1.10 grams/cm^3. At STP there are 50 cm^3 of CO2 vapor per gram.An aluminum tube about 18 inches long by 1.0 inches I.D.could store about 750 grams of liquid CO2. Could one make a miniature steam engine run a minipower generator for my newly acquired laptop while I get used to doing strange things with my finger? For how long? :-) Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 11/20/2005 8:24:37 AM
Subject: Re: CO2 Minipower Generator?

Nov. 20, 2005
 
Vortex,
 
In the late forties, with the rage for powered model airplanes (among boys mostly), there developed many sized gas, methanol, and some Co2 powered engines. You will find them still actively traded on eBay.
The Co2 engines were not too popular. They were almost curiosities in their simple and novel design. The only power source was from small (approve. 3/4"X 3") steel cylinders that were designed to supply home carbonated water from tap water. The cylinders had very high gas pressure which was eventually adapted to power pellet rifles, pistols and one shot model rocket cars, planes. It gets to be expensive power source over time. The cylinders are still available today with the standard and even elongated (4") design.
The Co2 engine design point was in the cylinder head and piston. The piston head had a projection where as it approached "top dead center" in its up and down motion, the projection pushed against a ball valve in the cylinder head. This released the Co2 gas feeding into the cylinder head and powered the down stroke of the piston. This worked very well. And the engine ran about couple of minutes or so at full blast. There were no engine controls. The model planes usually ran on a free flight pattern.There was a problem. With so much gas being released the engine quickly became frosted with all the ambient heat being sucked IN. This caused the engine to freeze up after extensive use of cylinders.
I suppose an electric generator could be designed to run off of an much improved Co2 powered engine to power your laptop. Perhaps it could be designed to run for extended lengths of time. The only problem would be in chasing after the laptop as it buzzes around your room.
 
Sincerely,
-ak-
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 11/20/2005 12:20:19 PM
Subject: Re: CO2 Minipower Generator?

At 77 F liquid CO2 has a pressure of 63.5 Atm (933 PSI) and a density of
about 1.10 grams/cm^3.
At STP there are 50 cm^3 of CO2 vapor per gram.An aluminum tube
about 18 inches long by 1.0 inches I.D.could store about 750 grams of
liquid CO2.
 
Could one make a miniature steam engine run a minipower generator for
my newly acquired laptop while I get used to doing strange things with my finger?
 
For how long?  :-)
 
Fred
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 20 13:07:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAKL78Hu022897; Sun, 20 Nov 2005 13:07:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAKL77qj022887; Sun, 20 Nov 2005 13:07:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 13:07:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 16:06:41 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7BC2D702FBB1F-15D4-435A mblkn-m13.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d netscape.net References: <410-2200511020121940468 earthlink.net> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <410-2200511020121940468 earthlink.net> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 14738 Subject: Re: CO2 Minipower Generator? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.131 X-Spam-Flag: YES Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id jAKL6owd022732 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64511 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: You could use two engines, one pressure and another stirling to take advantage of thermal shift of the expanding gas as Akira points out. Or you could use methanol: http://www.geekcoffee.net/archives/2005/11/samsung_creates_1.html By the way, when you get the knack of it with one finger, try the other hand for variety. -----Original Message----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 05:19:40 -0700 Subject: Re: CO2 Minipower Generator? At 77 F liquid CO2 has a pressure of 63.5 Atm (933 PSI) and a density of about 1.10 grams/cm^3. At STP there are 50 cm^3 of CO2 vapor per gram.An aluminum tube about 18 inches long by 1.0 inches I.D.could store about 750 grams of liquid CO2.   Could one make a miniature steam engine run a minipower generator for my newly acquired laptop while I get used to doing strange things with my finger?   For how long?  :-)   Fred   ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 20 16:02:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAL01qtX005733; Sun, 20 Nov 2005 16:02:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAL01otw005684; Sun, 20 Nov 2005 16:01:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 16:01:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43810E48.2040605 iinet.net.au> Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 11:01:12 +1100 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: challenging papers Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64512 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I've said to a friend that most critics of cold fusion can't quote or cite a single paper critical of cold fusion. It's certainly correct in Australia. but is it correct in all cases. What are the papers critical of cold fusion and have we debunked them all in turn? We need a list and counter list on Jeds web site or ISCMNS or some where. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 20 16:09:42 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAL099I7009829; Sun, 20 Nov 2005 16:09:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAL09720009800; Sun, 20 Nov 2005 16:09:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 16:09:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 19:08:41 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: BYU. professor thinks bombs, not planes, toppled WTC To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <1f5f481f4bbc.1f4bbc1f5f48 ncf.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 Patch 2 (built Jul 14 2004) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-language: en Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-Accept-Language: en Priority: normal iPlanet-SMTP-Warning: Lines longer than SMTP allows found and truncated. Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64513 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status:

>
> Nov. 10, 2005

> Y. professor thinks bombs, not planes, toppled WTC
>
> By Elaine Jarvik
> Deseret Morning News, Utah
>

> The physics of 9/11 - including how fast and symmetrically
> one of the World Trade Center buildings fell - prove that official
> explanations of the collapses are wrong, says a Brigham Young
> University physics professor.
> In fact, it's likely that there were "pre-positioned
> explosives" in all three buildings at ground zero, says Steven E.
> Jones. In a paper posted online Tuesday and accepted for peer-
> reviewed publication next year, Jones adds his voice to those of
> previous skeptics, including the authors of the Web site
> http://www.wtc7.net/, whose research Jones quotes. Jones' article
> can be found at www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html.
>
> Stuart Johnson, Deseret Morning News
> "It is quite plausible that explosives were pre-planted in all
> three (WTC) buildings," BYU physics professor Steven E. Jones says.
>
>
> Jones, who conduct From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 20 16:47:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAL0kso1026027; Sun, 20 Nov 2005 16:47:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAL0krPB026010; Sun, 20 Nov 2005 16:46:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 16:46:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=apUxayTAV950eteGffbSVq5pGzpVhr06ZCm2B/SDnTIQcVTpDbTPMhhPmJoN3CLn; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220051112104631813 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: CO2 Minipower Generator? Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 17:46:31 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94086c5dbbfb35e92e0196596a2dd62e97a350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.206 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64514 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I'm against methanol, but a hand-pump pressurized mix of scotch and 3% peroxide run over a few cubic centimeters of auto cat converter beads should run a mini steam engine-generator. Fred > [Original Message] > From: > To: > Date: 11/20/2005 2:07:28 PM > Subject: Re: CO2 Mini power Generator? > > You could use two engines, one pressure and another stirling to take > advantage of thermal shift of the expanding gas as Akira points out. > > Or you could use methanol: > > http://www.geekcoffee.net/archives/2005/11/samsung_creates_1.html > > By the way, when you get the knack of it with one finger, try the other > hand for variety. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Frederick Sparber > To: vortex-l > Sent: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 05:19:40 -0700 > Subject: Re: CO2 Minipower Generator? > > At 77 F liquid CO2 has a pressure of 63.5 Atm (933 PSI) and a density of > about 1.10 grams/cm^3. > At STP there are 50 cm^3 of CO2 vapor per gram.An aluminum tube > about 18 inches long by 1.0 inches I.D.could store about 750 grams of > liquid CO2. >   > Could one make a miniature steam engine run a minipower generator for > my newly acquired laptop while I get used to doing strange things with > my finger? >   > For how long?  :-) >   > Fred >   > > > ___________________________________________________ > Try the New Netscape Mail Today! > Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List > http://mail.netscape.com > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 20 17:27:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAL1QG5l010357; Sun, 20 Nov 2005 17:26:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAL1Q6Wr010236; Sun, 20 Nov 2005 17:26:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 17:26:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=ix.netcom.com; b=Alow63HWLkzAAqN0UoeVqnB9gaGzeMLb+hr7SBW0mx+B0BhrChw4nCz+MhYESDza; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200511020172342690 ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.1.47.0 (Windows) From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: "vortex-l" Subject: OT FW: Re: CO2 Minipower Generator? Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 17:23:42 -00 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d8f1bd4d24970586dcfa97b387f733fafc795b3f24a9f74b7f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 216.175.88.150 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64515 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII apologies if vortex-l alredy received the missive From: Akira Kawasaki To: Vortex-l Sent: 11/20/2005 8:24:37 AM Subject: Re: CO2 Minipower Generator? Nov. 20, 2005 Vortex, In the late forties, with the rage for powered model airplanes (among boys mostly), there developed many sized gas, methanol, and some Co2 powered engines. You will find them still actively traded on eBay. The Co2 engines were not too popular. They were almost curiosities in their simple and novel design. The only power source was from small (approve. 3/4"X 3") steel cylinders that were designed to supply home carbonated water from tap water. The cylinders had very high gas pressure which was eventually adapted to power pellet rifles, pistols and one shot model rocket cars, planes. It gets to be expensive power source over time. The cylinders are still available today with the standard and even elongated (4") design. The Co2 engine design point was in the cylinder head and piston. The piston head had a projection where as it approached "top dead center" in its up and down motion, the projection pushed against a ball valve in the cylinder head. This released the Co2 gas feeding into the cylinder head and powered the down stroke of the piston. This worked very well. And the engine ran about couple of minutes or so at full blast. There were no engine controls. The model planes usually ran on a free flight pattern.There was a problem. With so much gas being released the engine quickly became frosted with all the ambient heat being sucked IN. This caused the engine to freeze up after extensive use of cylinders. I suppose an electric generator could be designed to run off of an much improved Co2 powered engine to power your laptop. Perhaps it could be designed to run for extended lengths of time. The only problem would be in chasing after the laptop as it buzzes around your room\ Sincerely, -ak- ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 11/20/2005 12:20:19 PM Subject: Re: CO2 Minipower Generator? At 77 F liquid CO2 has a pressure of 63.5 Atm (933 PSI) and a density of about 1.10 grams/cm^3. At STP there are 50 cm^3 of CO2 vapor per gram.An aluminum tube about 18 inches long by 1.0 inches I.D.could store about 750 grams of liquid CO2. Could one make a miniature steam engine run a minipower generator for my newly acquired laptop while I get used to doing strange things with my finge? For how long? :-) Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

apologies if vortex-l alredy received the missive
To: Vortex-l
Sent: 11/20/2005 8:24:37 AM
Subject: Re: CO2 Minipower Generator?
 
Nov. 20, 2005
 
Vortex,
 
In the late forties, with the rage for powered model airplanes (among boys mostly), there developed many sized gas, methanol, and some Co2 powered engines. You will find them still actively traded on eBay.
The Co2 engines were not too popular. They were almost curiosities in their simple and novel design. The only power source was from small (approve. 3/4"X 3") steel cylinders that were designed to supply home carbonated water from tap water. The cylinders had very high gas pressure which was eventually adapted to power pellet rifles, pistols and one shot model rocket cars, planes. It gets to be expensive power source over time. The cylinders are still available today with the standard and even elongated (4") design.
The Co2 engine design point was in the cylinder head and piston. The piston head had a projection where as it approached "top dead center" in its up and down motion, the projection pushed against a ball valve in the cylinder head. This released the Co2 gas feeding into the cylinder head and powered the down stroke of the piston. This worked very well. And the engine ran about couple of minutes or so at full blast. There were no engine controls. The model planes usually ran on a free flight pattern.There was a problem. With so much gas being released the engine quickly became frosted with all the ambient heat being sucked IN. This caused the engine to freeze up after extensive use of cylinders.
I suppose an electric generator could be designed to run off of an much improved Co2 powered engine to power your laptop. Perhaps it could be designed to run for extended lengths of time. The only problem would be in chasing after the laptop as it buzzes around your room\
 
Sincerely,
-ak-
 
----- Original Message -----
 
Sent: 11/20/2005 12:20:19 PM
 
Subject: Re: CO2 Minipower Generator?
 
At 77 F liquid CO2 has a pressure of 63.5 Atm (933 PSI) and a density of
about 1.10 grams/cm^3.
At STP there are 50 cm^3 of CO2 vapor per gram.An aluminum tube
about 18 inches long by 1.0 inches I.D.could store about 750 grams of
liquid CO2.
Could one make a miniature steam engine run a minipower generator for
my newly acquired laptop while I get used to doing strange things with my finge?
For how long?  :-)
 
Fred
 
 ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 20 17:39:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAL1dNp9018552; Sun, 20 Nov 2005 17:39:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAL1bX01017661; Sun, 20 Nov 2005 17:37:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 17:37:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <002601c5ee3c$031a9790$2e027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: <1f5f481f4bbc.1f4bbc1f5f48 ncf.ca> Subject: Re: BYU. professor thinks bombs, not planes, toppled WTC Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 19:35:53 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0023_01C5EE09.9E891EF0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.8 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,HTML_30_40, HTML_MESSAGE,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: <0sztaB.A.rTE.VTSgDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64516 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01C5EE09.9E891EF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Harry, Don't know about the physics but the mechanical and structural = engineerig aspects of the collapse make for a wide range of theories for = the cause of the (near symmetrical) collapse of the buildings. Add to = the confusion caused by FEMA and the standard operating procedure of the = government and you have a quagmire of conflicting views even among the = structural engineering studies that resulted. At the end of the day we know the result was a huge hole in the ground. = We know the "owners" are being compensated for the loss by insurance. WE = know the salvage materials were removed and chemical and structural = tests are no longer possible. We know there has been a whole series of = conspiracy theories set forth.=20 And finally, we know that 9-1-1 has been relegated to history the same = as Lee Harvey Osward.=20 Calculate the amount of jet fuel available in a 777. Calculate the = maximum temperature produced by burning jet fuel. Secure the mill test = report on the exact structural steel used in construction. Secure the = calculations for tensile strength vs. heat failure. Calculate the = amount, location and type of structural steel potentially exposed to the = fire. Estimate the potential for the structural steel to fail = symmetrically given that the fuel was NOT evenly distributed across the = specific floor of the building.=20 Few actual facts are known. One fact is that occupants above the = specific floors were able to exit using the elevators and stairwells for = a period of time which presupposes that the fire was restricted to a = limited section of the floor. Presume that a failure caused by the = structural steel melting would result in a " topple over" rather than a = " telescoping" symmetrical collapse. The odds of two towers collapsing = in like manner are so astronomically high as to test one's common = sense. My personal opinion.. I will never know for sure. That is what makes 911 = the grandmother of all conspiracy theories. I know something happened = that has caused me to better understand Ben Franklin's reasoning = expressed in=20 " poor Richard's almanac".=20 Richard ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Harry Veeder=20 To: vortex-l eskimo.com=20 Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2005 6:08 PM Subject: BYU. professor thinks bombs, not planes, toppled WTC >=20 > Nov. 10, 2005 > Y. professor thinks bombs, not planes, toppled WTC=20 >=20 > By Elaine Jarvik=20 > Deseret Morning News, Utah=20 > > The physics of 9/11 - including how fast and symmetrically=20 > one of the World Trade Center buildings fell - prove that official=20 > explanations of the collapses are wrong, says a Brigham Young=20 > University physics professor.=20 > In fact, it's likely that there were "pre-positioned=20 > explosives" in all three buildings at ground zero, says Steven E.=20 > Jones. In a paper posted online Tuesday and accepted for peer-=20 > reviewed publication next year, Jones adds his voice to those of=20 > previous skeptics, including the authors of the Web site=20 > http://www.wtc7.net/, whose research Jones quotes. Jones' article=20 > can be found at www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html.=20 >=20 > Stuart Johnson, Deseret Morning News=20 > "It is quite plausible that explosives were pre-planted in all=20 > three (WTC) buildings," BYU physics professor Steven E. Jones says.=20 >=20 >=20 > Jones, wh! o conduct=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01C5EE09.9E891EF0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Harry,
Don't know about the physics but the = mechanical=20 and structural engineerig aspects of the collapse make for a wide range = of=20 theories for the cause of the (near symmetrical) collapse of the = buildings. Add=20 to the confusion caused by FEMA and the standard operating procedure of = the=20 government and you have a quagmire of conflicting views even among the=20 structural engineering studies that resulted.
At the end of the day we know the = result was a=20 huge hole in the ground. We know the "owners" are being compensated for = the loss=20 by insurance. WE know the salvage materials were removed and chemical = and=20 structural  tests are no longer possible. We know there has been a = whole=20 series of conspiracy theories set forth.
And finally, we know that 9-1-1 has = been=20 relegated to history the same as Lee Harvey Osward.
 
 Calculate the amount of jet = fuel available=20 in a 777. Calculate the maximum temperature produced by burning jet=20 fuel. Secure the mill test report on the exact structural = steel=20 used in construction. Secure the calculations for tensile=20 strength vs. heat failure. Calculate the amount, = location=20 and type of structural steel potentially exposed to the fire. Estimate = the=20 potential for the structural steel to fail symmetrically given that the = fuel was=20 NOT evenly distributed across the specific floor of the building. =
Few actual facts are known. One fact = is that=20 occupants above the specific floors were able to exit using the = elevators and=20 stairwells for a period of time which presupposes that the fire was = restricted=20 to a limited section of the floor. Presume that a failure caused  = by the=20 structural steel melting would result in a " topple over" rather than a = "=20 telescoping" symmetrical collapse. The odds of two towers collapsing in = like=20 manner are so astronomically high as to  test one's common=20 sense.
My personal opinion.. I will never = know for sure.=20 That is what makes 911 the grandmother of all conspiracy theories. I = know=20 something happened that has caused me to better understand Ben = Franklin's=20 reasoning expressed in
" poor Richard's almanac". =
 
Richard
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Harry Veeder
Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2005 = 6:08=20 PM
Subject: BYU. professor thinks = bombs, not=20 planes, toppled WTC

>
> Nov. 10, 2005

> Y. professor thinks bombs, not planes, toppled WTC
> =
>=20 By Elaine Jarvik
> Deseret Morning News, Utah
>

> The physics of 9/11 - including how fast and symmetrically =
>=20 one of the World Trade Center buildings fell - prove that official =
>=20 explanations of the collapses are wrong, says a Brigham Young
> = University physics professor.
> In fact, it's likely that there = were=20 "pre-positioned
> explosives" in all three buildings at ground = zero,=20 says Steven E.
> Jones. In a paper posted online Tuesday and = accepted=20 for peer-
> reviewed publication next year, Jones adds his = voice to=20 those of
> previous skeptics, including the authors of the Web = site=20
> http://www.wtc7.net/, whose research Jones quotes. Jones' = article=20
> can be found at = www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html.=20
>
> Stuart Johnson, Deseret Morning News
> "It is = quite=20 plausible that explosives were pre-planted in all
> three (WTC) = buildings," BYU physics professor Steven E. Jones says.
> =
>=20
> Jones, wh! o conduct

------=_NextPart_000_0023_01C5EE09.9E891EF0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 20 19:30:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAL3U89e031025; Sun, 20 Nov 2005 19:30:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAL3PbFk029602; Sun, 20 Nov 2005 19:25:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 19:25:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001201c5ee4b$2f1ced70$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <1f5f481f4bbc.1f4bbc1f5f48 ncf.ca> <002601c5ee3c$031a9790$2e027841@xptower> Subject: Re: BYU. professor thinks bombs, not planes, toppled WTC Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 19:25:12 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000F_01C5EE08.206CFDD0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <_exDXD.A.dOH.w4TgDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64517 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C5EE08.206CFDD0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Whoa... Reading the report, and others on this site - there is not a = real serious mention of "bombs" and the report tries to focus mainly on = the third building, not the Twin towers. The "broader conspiracy" is = pure crap, IMHO... but as to Building 7, there is a plausible case being = made here and this limited version should be taken at least = half-seriously. Forget the Towers, if there is any truth to any "plot", and there may be = - it is ALL about the smaller (47 story) building which was not hit on = 9/11 by the hijacked airliners. This lesser-included premise is that the = building 7 was already rigged with "thermite" which is not a "bomb".=20 True, the perverted-intent behind that situation does seems to be that = the whole building would be taken down in case of "emergency" - honest = tenants and all. This trade-off comes from another black eye given to us = in the Mid-East, but there is some plausibility to it. And one can see = why the Dept of Homeland Security wants to keep it totally hush-hush as = who knows what other buildings are so rigged. Thermite, BTW is used to melt steel, and must be carefully arranged and = placed far in advance... and lots of it would have been needed. What = "emergency" would warrant a building to be "secretly rigged" with = apporximately 50 tons of thermite - and then used daily by thousands of = workers, unknown to them ? Answer: Can you spell CIA and the Iran Crisis? =20 [According to this site, that is - and all I am saying is that they have = made a plasuible case, unlike most of the other WTC conspiracy baloney = which is all over the internet]. The CIA.'s "undercover" New York office was a large part of the 47-story = building at 7 World Trade Center, which was the smaller office tower, = which was destroyed in the aftermath of the collapse of the twin towers = that morning and the one Steve Jones refers to mainly although he gets = caught-up in too much of the broader BS about a more massive plot. He = should just stick with building 7. Immediately after the attack, the C.I.A. was said to have dispatched a = special team to scour the rubble in search of secret documents, but they = were not very concerned... as the building was probably rigged and well = designed to totally destroy everything in such an emergency - just like = we should have done in IRAN years earlier, in which case hastily = "destroyed" CIA documents were pieced together to the embarassment of = all. The agency's secret New York station was said to behind the "false = front" of a federal trade organization, which officials have requested = that The NY Times not identify and they didn't. The station was, among = other things, a base of operations to recruit foreign diplomats at the = United Nations, while debriefing selected American business executives = and do industrial espionage. =20 The plan had been apparently laid out years ago by the agency, and = possibly by Bush senior after the Iranian takeover of the US Embassy in = Tehran in 1979. The revolutionaries took over the embassy so rapidly = that the C.I.A. was not able to destroy all of its documents, and the = Iranians were later able to piece together shredded reports. Since that = disaster, the agency has taken more certain tactics.... but this is = almost criminal to have let the building be used by other tenants when = it could have been destroyed with the flip of a switch. What about a = lightning strike? Why did not they just buy there own small building? =20 This site claims that the Iran fiasco is why the building had been = carefully rigged with thermite - just in case terrorists did take over = the whole building in a real life type remake of Bruce Willis's DIE HARD = (1988) which was supposedly one of the senior Bush's favorite movies ;-) I liked the first one too. BTW the movie was a rip-off of NOTHING LASTS = FOREVER by Roderick Thorp and if anybody was inspired by that, it was = probably old Bin hissef. Even the "Ultimate Die Hard dvd" has little = mention of the original pulp novel, other than director John McTiernan = admitting he never read it. Probably best but it does picture a WTC = look-alike on the cover. Jones ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C5EE08.206CFDD0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Whoa... Reading the report, and others = on this site=20 - there is not a real serious mention of "bombs" and the report tries to = focus=20 mainly on the third building, not the Twin towers. The "broader = conspiracy" is=20 pure crap, IMHO... but as to Building 7, there is a plausible case being = made=20 here and this limited version should be taken at least=20 half-seriously.

Forget the Towers, if there is any truth to any = "plot",=20 and there may be - it is ALL about the smaller (47 story) building which = was not=20 hit on 9/11 by the hijacked airliners. This lesser-included premise is = that the=20 building 7 was already rigged with "thermite" which is not a = "bomb".=20
 
True, the perverted-intent behind that = situation=20 does seems to be that the whole building would be taken down in case of=20 "emergency" - honest tenants and all. This trade-off comes from another = black=20 eye given to us in the Mid-East, but there is some plausibility to it. = And one=20 can see why the Dept of Homeland Security wants to keep it totally = hush-hush as=20 who knows what other buildings are so rigged.
 
Thermite, BTW is used to melt = steel, and must=20 be carefully arranged and placed far in advance... and lots of it would = have=20 been needed. What "emergency" would warrant a building to be "secretly = rigged"=20 with apporximately 50 tons of thermite - and then used daily by = thousands of=20 workers, unknown to them ?

Answer: Can you spell CIA and the Iran = Crisis? 
 
[According to this site, that is - = and all I=20 am saying is that they have made a plasuible case, unlike most of the = other WTC=20 conspiracy baloney which is all over the internet].

The CIA.'s=20 "undercover" New York office was a large part of the 47-story building = at 7=20 World Trade Center, which was the smaller office tower, which = was destroyed=20 in the aftermath of the collapse of the twin towers that morning and the = one=20 Steve Jones refers to mainly although he gets caught-up in too much of = the=20 broader BS about a more massive plot. He should just stick with building = 7.
 
Immediately after the attack, the = C.I.A. was said=20 to have dispatched a special team to scour the rubble in search of = secret=20 documents, but they were not very concerned... as the building was = probably=20 rigged and well designed to totally destroy everything in such an = emergency -=20 just like we should have done in IRAN years earlier, in which case = hastily=20 "destroyed" CIA documents were pieced together to the embarassment of=20 all.

The agency's secret New York station was said to behind the = "false=20 front" of a federal trade organization, which officials have requested = that The=20 NY Times not identify and they didn't. The station was, among other = things, a=20 base of operations to recruit foreign diplomats at the United Nations, = while=20 debriefing selected American business executives and do industrial=20 espionage.
 
The plan had been apparently = laid out=20 years ago by the agency, and possibly by Bush senior after the = Iranian=20 takeover of the US Embassy in Tehran in 1979. The revolutionaries took = over the=20 embassy so rapidly that the C.I.A. was not able to destroy all of its = documents,=20 and the Iranians were later able to piece together shredded reports. = Since that=20 disaster, the agency has taken more certain tactics.... = but this is=20 almost criminal to have let the building be used by other tenants when = it could=20 have been destroyed with the flip of a switch. What about a lightning = strike?=20 Why did not they just buy there own small building?
 
This site claims that = the Iran=20 fiasco is why the building had been carefully rigged with thermite = - just=20 in case terrorists did take over the whole building in a real life = type=20 remake of Bruce Willis's DIE HARD (1988) which was supposedly one of the = senior=20 Bush's favorite movies ;-)
 
I liked the first one too. BTW the = movie was a rip-off of NOTHING LASTS FOREVER by Roderick Thorp and = if=20 anybody was inspired by that, it was probably old Bin hissef. Even the = "Ultimate=20 Die Hard dvd" has little mention of the original pulp novel, other than = director=20 John McTiernan admitting he never read it. Probably best but it does = picture a=20 WTC look-alike on the cover.
 
Jones
------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C5EE08.206CFDD0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 20 20:28:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAL4RaE0022656; Sun, 20 Nov 2005 20:27:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAL4RYiI022642; Sun, 20 Nov 2005 20:27:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 20:27:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000c01c5ee53$d35a1680$ea027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: BYU.professor thinks.. Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 22:27:01 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C5EE21.872C3540" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.9 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,HTML_40_50,HTML_MESSAGE,J_CHICKENPOX_39, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: <6VXsVD.A.qhF.2yUgDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64518 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C5EE21.872C3540 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0009_01C5EE21.873276D0" ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C5EE21.873276D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankJones, BYU Jones is just trying to take the front page away from Texas. In keeping with the premise that truth in Texas is always stranger than = fiction and conspiracies.. take the recent account of the.. Texas Lottery Commission.. hehe , grin, chuckle.. snicker.. woopee doo!! An Austin reporter learned they had a secret underground bunker near = Austin to go in case of an major threat like an nuke attack.. All key personel and records, ( cash money wasn't mentioned ) were to be = safeguarded in this concrete bunker. The public be damned.. lottery = records are more important evidenced by the reported cost of the bunker = ( in the millions) PLUS, state of the art computers( additional cost not = mentioned). Meanwhile back at the ranch, they just canned the latest Lottery honcho. = They are miffed that a news leak uncovered their secret hideyhole bunker = out in the hills, and are seriously considering a real political hack to = become the next honcho. =20 Who was appointed and served as the director of the Texas lottery = commission during the "W" governorship in the 1990's..=20 Who else.. a woman lawyer . you may recognize her , she recently = withdrew her name form nomination to the supreme court. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C5EE21.873276D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Jones,
 
BYU Jones is just trying to take the front page away from = Texas.
 
In keeping with the premise that truth in Texas is always stranger = than=20 fiction and conspiracies.. take the recent account of the..
 
Texas Lottery Commission.. hehe , grin, chuckle.. snicker.. woopee=20 doo!!
 
An Austin reporter learned they had a secret underground bunker = near Austin=20 to go in case of an major threat like an nuke attack..
All key personel and records, ( cash money wasn't mentioned ) were = to be=20 safeguarded in this concrete bunker. The public be damned.. lottery = records are=20 more important evidenced by the reported cost of the bunker ( in the = millions)=20 PLUS, state of the art computers( additional cost not mentioned).
 
Meanwhile back at the ranch, they just canned the latest Lottery = honcho.=20 They are miffed that a news leak uncovered their secret hideyhole bunker = out in=20 the hills, and are seriously considering a real political hack to become = the=20 next honcho.
 
Who was appointed and served as the director of the Texas = lottery=20 commission during the "W" governorship in the 1990's..
Who else..  a woman lawyer . you may recognize her , she = recently=20 withdrew her name form nomination to the supreme court.

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C5EE21.873276D0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C5EE21.872C3540 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000701c5ee53$d195d140$ea027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C5EE21.872C3540-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 20 23:32:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAL7WJjN006888; Sun, 20 Nov 2005 23:32:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAL7WGxY006866; Sun, 20 Nov 2005 23:32:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 23:32:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cathode (Cometary) Commentary Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 18:31:51 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <437CA755.8050403@ix.netcom.com> <0qnpn153cg9sn6dv5h038747t9mmmfsitq@4ax.com> <437CF012.6070009@ix.netcom.com> <5hgqn1h7cp5i3h0cj14gr0c4722rmm97ti@4ax.com> <437DF850.6030405@ix.netcom.com> <437E4C84.6030409@ix.netcom.com> <437FA4DA.10005@ix.netcom.com> <57ivn1p3hggjugepkngcqeo646ako968g2@4ax.com> <4380C1C8.2030207@ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: <4380C1C8.2030207 ix.netcom.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta02ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.59.28] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Mon, 21 Nov 2005 07:31:50 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id jAL7VwSM006697 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64519 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Edmund Storms's message of Sun, 20 Nov 2005 11:34:48 -0700: Hi, [snip] >> Never heard of it. Reference? > Oriani, R.A. Anomalous Heavy Atomic Masses Produced by Electrolysis. >in The Seventh International Conference on Cold Fusion. 1998. Vancouver, >Canada: ENECO, Inc., Salt Lake City, UT. Having just read this, I am somewhat bemused. The notion of carbon with hundreds of neutrons is a bit rich even for me. Note that the Pd labeled 0-113 was washed in HCl after use. I have previously suggested that Cl- is a complex former for some metals, which is why it forms part of aqua regia. The other component of aqua regia is nitric acid, which due to the presence of the N5+ ion functions as an oxidizer. Combine an oxidizer with a complex former and noble metals (e.g. Pd) relinquish their electrons and form a complex. In this case, all the ingredients are present for this process. The Cl- was present due to the HCl wash and the oxidizer was present in the form of pure oxygen, in which the metal was baked for hours. In short, I wouldn't be in the least surprised to see a Pd complex forming comprising Pd with multiple Cl- ions attached. My guess is that the mass works out just about in the neighborhood of those measured. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 21 01:00:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAL90O73012570; Mon, 21 Nov 2005 01:00:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAL90B6C012498; Mon, 21 Nov 2005 01:00:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 01:00:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20051121085948653.9F9C62000082 mwinf3111.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20051121085950.009c8794 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 08:59:50 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: BYU. professor thinks bombs, not planes, toppled WTC Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64520 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 07:35 pm 20/11/2005 -0600, Richard wrote: > Hi Harry, > Don't know about the physics but the mechanical > and structural engineering aspects of the > collapse make for a wide range of theories > for the cause of the (near symmetrical) > collapse of the buildings. Add to the > confusion caused by FEMA and the standard > operating procedure of the government and > you have a quagmire of conflicting views > even among the structural engineering > studies that resulted. Having worked in the Structural Engineering Division of the British Building Research Establishment for 30 years and taken part in the collapse of an 80 high model of a tower block of flats made from concrete panels I thought it would be appropriate to add my two pennyworth to this thread. I was lucky enough (perhaps not the best choice of words) to see the 911 incident as it happened. After the second impact (live) I turned to my daughter and said, "You are going to see both those towers collapse in a minute." I should have been saying a prayer for those about to die but I was so fascinated by the huge structural failure experiment taking place before my eyes that any noble thoughts deserted me completely. When the towers did eventually fail, the mode of failure (straight down) was exactly the same as I had witnessed in the BRE model so it did not surprise me in the least. I was also interested to observe the huge cloud of dust thrown up which was again the same as the BRE. model though in the 911 case it was mainly plaster dust, not concrete dust as with our model. If you think about pictures of the vertical walls left in bombed British and German cities in WW2 I think you will see that cellular structures do generally pancake rather than topple. Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 21 05:35:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jALDZ5w2009773; Mon, 21 Nov 2005 05:35:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jALDZ3a6009755; Mon, 21 Nov 2005 05:35:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 05:35:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000a01c5eea0$4a5c7b00$0200a8c0 user> From: "Noel D. Whitney" To: Subject: unsuscribe Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 13:34:25 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01C5EEA0.4A282490" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64521 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C5EEA0.4A282490 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable unsubscribe ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C5EEA0.4A282490 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
unsubscribe
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C5EEA0.4A282490-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 21 07:31:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jALFVAWL006774; Mon, 21 Nov 2005 07:31:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jALFV8WD006747; Mon, 21 Nov 2005 07:31:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 07:31:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4381E807.6070201 ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 08:30:15 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: challenging papers References: <43810E48.2040605 iinet.net.au> In-Reply-To: <43810E48.2040605 iinet.net.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <_-HUnD.A.SpB.7gegDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64522 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Wesley, read the Student's Guide to Cold Fusion. Most of the major papers are listed there and their importance is described. A simple list of papers would not do much good because it is the relationship between the various observations that is important. An untrained or uninformed person can not see this relationship very easily, thus the need for such reviews. As for the skeptics, no amount of reading will change their minds, so using this method to change minds is a waste of time. Regards, Ed Wesley Bruce wrote: > I've said to a friend that most critics of cold fusion can't quote or > cite a single paper critical of cold fusion. It's certainly correct in > Australia. but is it correct in all cases. What are the papers critical > of cold fusion and have we debunked them all in turn? We need a list and > counter list on Jeds web site or ISCMNS or some where. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 21 07:51:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jALFox0m017078; Mon, 21 Nov 2005 07:51:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jALFoqqh016986; Mon, 21 Nov 2005 07:50:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 07:50:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=SV8pdQyOgcZXVZn+P04DsC6cA4DZsTi2AxmkoCJXZBzsaCJ2S+36dcHECLEFj476lgCKHfruZF166ZCR747mfx+qiaj6MUjxJbbjhl9DwVr6QWFJL5Y2HxQBea5pD1wNeF0trXY76e4Ore2DtYSZbL8nooWnM2QUpISEuKDceN4= ; Message-ID: <20051121155031.81371.qmail web32213.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 07:50:31 -0800 (PST) From: Merlyn Subject: Re: BYU. professor thinks bombs, not planes, toppled WTC To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20051121085950.009c8794 pop.freeserve.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64523 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Yeah, I have noticed that most conspiracy theories have focused on a scientist saying "the collapse was not possible without assistance, according to the laws of physics" or something similar. Most individuals actually related to construction are unwilling to say it could not have happened. The science types forget that real-world physics is different than lab physics, because of the number of uncontrolled variables. I have done a little qualitative research during the past week on structural failure due to fire, and would like to interject a few facts that are typically overlooked by the conspiracy theorists. 1. Temperature I don't have a figure on what the temp. could have been at the fire, but I do know that standard fire tests start at 1000 F and go up to 2400 F. Burning jet fuel is hot, but not neccesarily as hot as burning carpet and plaster. 2. Structural Integrity Concrete (like the floor slabs in the building) undergoes explosive spalling at temperatures as low as 600 F, especially when subjected to a steep temperature gradient. Concrete and steel both lose signifacant structural strength at temperatures above 400 F. Steel and Concrete have thermal expansion coefficients which differ by a factor of 1000, so under these temperatures, the concrete slab would seperate from the steel deck below which greatly reduces the strength of the composite floor. 3. Vertical Demolition The structural support for the tower was at the perimeter and center. Most of the vertical load was taken by the core around the stairwells and elevator shafts. If the fire spread down these shafts and weakened this central support structure, an implosion would have to follow. Also, with something of this size, the only way to topple the building sideways would be to start at the bottom, if you start anywhere within the top half, the floors have nowhere to go but down. 4. Explosions I have already mentioned the explosive spalling of concrete under high temperature gradients, add this to the rapid thermal expansion of steel and you have a very plausible mechanism for throwing debris to the extent witnessed. Also, any finely powdered material will burn and (in a confined space) explode, which could provide a natural explanation for the explosions. The point is that there are no experiments designed to mimic what we know about the towers' collapse, and so we are left with guesswork and theory, which can never account for every real-world variable in the event. --- Grimer wrote: > At 07:35 pm 20/11/2005 -0600, Richard wrote: > > > Hi Harry, > > > Don't know about the physics but the mechanical > > and structural engineering aspects of the > > collapse make for a wide range of theories > > for the cause of the (near symmetrical) > > collapse of the buildings. Add to the > > confusion caused by FEMA and the standard > > operating procedure of the government and > > you have a quagmire of conflicting views > > even among the structural engineering > > studies that resulted. > > > > Having worked in the Structural Engineering > Division of the British Building Research > Establishment for 30 years and taken part in > the collapse of an 80 high model of a tower > block of flats made from concrete panels I > thought it would be appropriate to add my > two pennyworth to this thread. > > I was lucky enough (perhaps not the best > choice of words) to see the 911 incident > as it happened. After the second impact > (live) I turned to my daughter and said, > "You are going to see both those towers > collapse in a minute." I should have been > saying a prayer for those about to die but > I was so fascinated by the huge structural > failure experiment taking place before my > eyes that any noble thoughts deserted me > completely. > > When the towers did eventually fail, > the mode of failure (straight down) was > exactly the same as I had witnessed in > the BRE model so it did not surprise me > in the least. I was also interested to > observe the huge cloud of dust thrown > up which was again the same as the BRE. > model though in the 911 case it was > mainly plaster dust, not concrete dust > as with our model. > > If you think about pictures of the vertical > walls left in bombed British and German > cities in WW2 I think you will see that > cellular structures do generally pancake > rather than topple. > > Frank Grimer > > > Merlyn Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist __________________________________ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 21 08:16:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jALGGLCv029887; Mon, 21 Nov 2005 08:16:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jALGGJfn029852; Mon, 21 Nov 2005 08:16:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 08:16:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4381F2A2.10807 ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 09:15:30 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BYU. professor thinks bombs, not planes, toppled WTC References: <1f5f481f4bbc.1f4bbc1f5f48 ncf.ca> <002601c5ee3c$031a9790$2e027841@xptower> <001201c5ee4b$2f1ced70$6401a8c0@NuDell> In-Reply-To: <001201c5ee4b$2f1ced70$6401a8c0 NuDell> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64524 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Yes Jones, no one should trust the government or especially the CIA, but has common sense gone completely out of style? Two basic issues have to be addressed: 1. How would placement of explosives be kept secret? 2. How could the CIA be sure that collapse of the building would destroy everything and why would they care? After all, the site can be completely guarded, being in NY city, unlike a building in an unfriendly country. As to #1, buildings are constructed by hundreds of ordinary workers, some of whom would have friends and relatives who would eventually work in the building. These people would not be happy with the prospect of their friends working under this condition in peace time. In addition, termite would not do the job because it would take too long for the metal beams to be melted and it would not take out the concrete parts of the structure that would protect any secret items. On the other hand, no one would work in a building that was rigged with armed explosives. It would have to be prearmed because it would take too long to place detonators at the hundreds of sites. Actually, the secrets would be in safes of various sizes that would be constructed to prevent destruction of valuable equipment in the case of fire. These structures would protect their contents as well as items near by. Of course, any combination of "theoretical" conditions can be proposed, but what is the point if these would be rejected by any street smart person as being totally impractical and unworkable. Such proposals only raise questions about the sanity of the person making the suggestion. Ask your self, how would you insure that secrets in such a building could be destroyed without bringing the entire building down? This would be a better use of time rather than speculating about something that has no reality. Do you think that CIA headquarters in Washington is also loaded with explosives? How about the Pentagon? If so, why didn't these go off when the plane hit? The whole idea eventually becomes absurd. Regards, Ed Jones Beene wrote: > Whoa... Reading the report, and others on this site - there is not a > real serious mention of "bombs" and the report tries to focus mainly on > the third building, not the Twin towers. The "broader conspiracy" is > pure crap, IMHO... but as to Building 7, there is a plausible case being > made here and this limited version should be taken at least half-seriously. > > Forget the Towers, if there is any truth to any "plot", and there may be > - it is ALL about the smaller (47 story) building which was not hit on > 9/11 by the hijacked airliners. This lesser-included premise is that the > building 7 was already rigged with "thermite" which is not a "bomb". > > True, the perverted-intent behind that situation does seems to be that > the whole building would be taken down in case of "emergency" - honest > tenants and all. This trade-off comes from another black eye given to us > in the Mid-East, but there is some plausibility to it. And one can see > why the Dept of Homeland Security wants to keep it totally hush-hush as > who knows what other buildings are so rigged. > > Thermite, BTW is used to melt steel, and must be carefully arranged and > placed far in advance... and lots of it would have been needed. What > "emergency" would warrant a building to be "secretly rigged" with > apporximately 50 tons of thermite - and then used daily by thousands of > workers, unknown to them ? > > Answer: Can you spell CIA and the Iran Crisis? > > [According to this site, that is - and all I am saying is that they have > made a plasuible case, unlike most of the other WTC conspiracy baloney > which is all over the internet]. > > The CIA.'s "undercover" New York office was a large part of the 47-story > building at 7 World Trade Center, which was the smaller office tower, > which was destroyed in the aftermath of the collapse of the twin towers > that morning and the one Steve Jones refers to mainly although he gets > caught-up in too much of the broader BS about a more massive plot. He > should just stick with building 7. > > Immediately after the attack, the C.I.A. was said to have dispatched a > special team to scour the rubble in search of secret documents, but they > were not very concerned... as the building was probably rigged and well > designed to totally destroy everything in such an emergency - just like > we should have done in IRAN years earlier, in which case hastily > "destroyed" CIA documents were pieced together to the embarassment of all. > > The agency's secret New York station was said to behind the "false > front" of a federal trade organization, which officials have requested > that The NY Times not identify and they didn't. The station was, among > other things, a base of operations to recruit foreign diplomats at the > United Nations, while debriefing selected American business executives > and do industrial espionage. > > The plan had been apparently laid out years ago by the agency, and > possibly by Bush senior after the Iranian takeover of the US Embassy in > Tehran in 1979. The revolutionaries took over the embassy so rapidly > that the C.I.A. was not able to destroy all of its documents, and the > Iranians were later able to piece together shredded reports. Since that > disaster, the agency has taken more certain tactics.... but this is > almost criminal to have let the building be used by other tenants when > it could have been destroyed with the flip of a switch. What about a > lightning strike? Why did not they just buy there own small building? > > This site claims that the Iran fiasco is why the building had been > carefully rigged with thermite - just in case terrorists did take over > the whole building in a real life type remake of Bruce Willis's DIE HARD > (1988) which was supposedly one of the senior Bush's favorite movies ;-) > > I liked the first one too. BTW the movie was a rip-off of NOTHING LASTS > FOREVER by Roderick Thorp and if anybody was inspired by that, it was > probably old Bin hissef. Even the "Ultimate Die Hard dvd" has little > mention of the original pulp novel, other than director John McTiernan > admitting he never read it. Probably best but it does picture a WTC > look-alike on the cover. > > Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 21 08:18:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jALGIDt7030748; Mon, 21 Nov 2005 08:18:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jALGI8U5030658; Mon, 21 Nov 2005 08:18:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 08:18:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: BYU. professor thinks bombs, not planes, toppled WTC X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 909b8a8ff0cae19159d456a4b333f05c Reply-To: michael.foster excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20051121161725.CD4DCB716 xprdmailfe20.nwk.excite.com> Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 11:17:25 -0500 (EST) Resent-Message-ID: <5zOFL.A.zeH.9MfgDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64525 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harry Veeder posted: > The physics of 9/11 - including how fast and symmetrically > one of the World Trade Center buildings fell - prove that official > explanations of the collapses are wrong, says a Brigham Young > University physics professor. > In fact, it's likely that there were "pre-positioned > explosives" in all three buildings at ground zero, says Steven E. > Jones. For those on this list who aren't aware of it, Jones is the same guy whose CF work prompted Pons and Fleischmann to publish sooner than they really wanted. Also keep in mind that advancement at BYU often depends on one's adherence to the Mormon faith rather than academic proficiency. M. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 21 08:37:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jALGavm7009001; Mon, 21 Nov 2005 08:37:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jALGatvx008974; Mon, 21 Nov 2005 08:36:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 08:36:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <006601c5eeb8$464aaf60$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <1f5f481f4bbc.1f4bbc1f5f48 ncf.ca> <002601c5ee3c$031a9790$2e027841@xptower> <001201c5ee4b$2f1ced70$6401a8c0@NuDell> <4381F2A2.10807@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: BYU. professor thinks bombs, not planes, toppled WTC Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 08:26:06 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64526 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ed, > 1. How would placement of explosives be kept secret? > 2. How could the CIA be sure that collapse of the building > would destroy everything and why would they care? After all, > the site can be completely guarded, being in NY city, unlike a > building in an unfriendly country. Please remember that I specifically stated that the web-site had presented a "plausible" case, and not that it was believable by me. In fact, I would give it a low, but non-zero, probability of being correct. However, one should never underestimate the duplicity of government, in general, and especially a government-unto-itself, like the CIA. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 21 09:19:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jALHIudX030507; Mon, 21 Nov 2005 09:19:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jALHItF8030493; Mon, 21 Nov 2005 09:18:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 09:18:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4382014D.30601 ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 10:18:05 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cathode (Cometary) Commentary References: <437CA755.8050403@ix.netcom.com> <0qnpn153cg9sn6dv5h038747t9mmmfsitq@4ax.com> <437CF012.6070009@ix.netcom.com> <5hgqn1h7cp5i3h0cj14gr0c4722rmm97ti@4ax.com> <437DF850.6030405@ix.netcom.com> <437E4C84.6030409@ix.netcom.com> <437FA4DA.10005@ix.netcom.com> <57ivn1p3hggjugepkngcqeo646ako968g2@4ax.com> <4380C1C8.2030207@ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64527 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to Edmund Storms's message of Sun, 20 Nov 2005 11:34:48 > -0700: > Hi, > [snip] > >>>Essentially correct, but be careful not to confuse Hy (neutral) >>>with what I have been designating "hyh" (Hydrinohydride) which >>>carries a negative charge (or Hy- if you prefer that notation). >> >>So, we have three possible combinations: >> >>1: A proton with one electron in the normal Bohr quantum state (i.e. the >>usual hydrogen atom) > > > Obviously correct. > > >>2. A proton with one or more electrons in Mills quantum states, which >>would be a very stable negative Hy ion, which I would designate Hy-, >>Hy--, etc, depending on the number of electrons. > > > Hy- is the only possible negative ion AFAIK. This is because the > first electron (the hydrinos own electron) essentially neutralizes > the protons charge, while the second electron that turns Hy into > Hy- neutralizes the magnetic field of the first electron. It's as > though you joined two bar magnets together with their opposing > poles together, then put "keepers" on them. Most of the magnetic > flux flows through the keepers directly to the other magnet > completing the circle. In short there is very little noticeable > external flux available to form additional bonds. This is also the > true reason why S shells of all atoms are limited to two > electrons. > > In short even though the hydrino is shrunken, it is still a > spherical shell, and hence essentially an S shell. > > More electrons are not possible, because both magnetic and > electrostatic attraction forces have been "used up", i.e. there > are no more protons in the nucleus to generate electrostatic force > which could "hold on to" additional electrons. > > >>3. A proton with one or more electrons in Mills quantum states and zero >>or one electron in the usual Bohr quantum state, which would be a stable >>molecule. >>In this case the other ion would have a positive charge equal >>to the total number of electrons associated with the proton. If the >>other ion is a proton, I would designate this as HyH, which would be >>neutral. > > > I believe what you are talking about here is an ionic bond between > Hy- and a proton (though the wording is a little confusing). This > may not exist as such, but rather as a dihydrino molecule. > (Essentially a shrunken hydrogen molecule). Here is a list of possible combinations, where Hy is a proton having one electron in a Mills quantum level and H is a proton having an electron in a Bohr level. Which of these do you call a dihydrino molecule? 1. Hy + H, where one Bohr electron exchanges between Bohr levels in the Hy atom and the H atom. 2. Hy + Hy, where the Mills electrons exchange between the two atoms. No Bohr electrons are present. In my description, Hy is a proton with one Mills electron and Hy- is a proton with two Mills electrons. If the latter made a bond, it would be 3. Hy- + H+, where no Bohr electrons would be present. I suggest that #2 is not possible and #3 would produce a much weaker bond than #1. Regards, Ed > > >>A corresponding compound with a Hy-- would be HyH2, or HyNa2 >>or HyCa, if other elements are used. Does this describe your understanding? > > > As mentioned above, I don't think there is any Hy ion more > negative than Hy-. > [snip] > >>>Never heard of it. Reference? >> >> Oriani, R.A. Anomalous Heavy Atomic Masses Produced by Electrolysis. >>in The Seventh International Conference on Cold Fusion. 1998. Vancouver, >>Canada: ENECO, Inc., Salt Lake City, UT. >> Fisher, J.C., Polyneutrons as agents for cold nuclear reactions. >>Fusion Technol., 1992. 22: p. 511. > > > Thanks. > [snip] > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > Competition provides the motivation, > Cooperation provides the means. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 21 09:27:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jALHQtNR002414; Mon, 21 Nov 2005 09:27:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jALHQgwi002187; Mon, 21 Nov 2005 09:26:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 09:26:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <009a01c5eec0$adf6a080$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <1f5f481f4bbc.1f4bbc1f5f48 ncf.ca> <002601c5ee3c$031a9790$2e027841@xptower> <001201c5ee4b$2f1ced70$6401a8c0@NuDell> <4381F2A2.10807@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: BYU. professor thinks bombs, not planes, toppled WTC Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 09:26:16 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64528 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ed, > 1. How would placement of explosives be kept secret? > 2. How could the CIA be sure that collapse of the building > would destroy everything and why would they care? After all, > the site can be completely guarded, being in NY city, unlike a > building in an unfriendly country. Let me preface this specific hypothetical answer to the first of these logical questions with this: Please remember that I stated that the web-site had presented a "plausible" case, and NOT that it was believable by me. In fact, I would give it a low, but non-zero, probability of being correct. However... ...as to "how" the placement of explosives would have been kept secret, that is very easy to imagine ... Two ways, really - but the easiest was in the unusual construction technique...first, the Wiki entry, and others (as annotated by me): "7 World Trade Center" There are two buildings that have been named 7 World Trade Center. One of which was destroyed September 11, 2001 and one that now occupies the same site. Although the two buildings share a name and a location, they share no resemblance in architectural style - and an unusual amount of secrecy according to those in the architectural profession. And it is somewhat remarkable that the site was rebuilt so soon, and under suspicious circumstances. Some of the suspicion is external, and relates to the amount of of gold and precious metals which were supposed to have been stored in Secret Services vaults there. Some relates to the lack of public details which were available and the fact that the site was heavilt guarded during the construction phase. Seven World Trade Center first began construction in 1984, shortly after the Iran incident, and in March of 1987 the building opened to become "nominally" the seventh structure comprising the World Trade Center. Since the CIA had been involved since day-one, thermite could have been poured into the hollow columns of the design. Hollow coloumns were said to have been a peculiarity of this design - but the detailed blueprints of the "final" design, which was altered prior to construction, remain secret to this day. The building was destroyed on September 11, 2001 in a series of coordinated attacks but was largely untoched by falling debris. It is the first steel building in the history of architecture to "supposedly" fall from fire alone. Closer building to WTC 1,2 did not fall. The structure had 47 floors and was 570 feet (174 m) in height. However only 46 floors showed up as usable, and in keeping with the fact that many building do no have a "13th floor" this is one place to hide a whole floor - whose only purpose is in the event of emergency. The Center's management leased space to large financial institutions, insurance companies, and government agencies. Apparently floor "13" was sandwiched by management floors with no elevator stop there. No small companies were permitted as tenants in this building, according to some who have tried to look into the details - also very unusual since apparently many accountants and lawyers were salivating to get in there. Also most unusual was the fact that a specific "terrorist" insurance rider was taken out after the 1993 terrorist attack. Also a major refurb was done in hte following year, and this could have been when the building was rigged using the abandoned 13th floor and using CIA operative contractors. The building housed Salomon Smith Barney, American Express Bank International, Standard Chartered Bank, Provident Financial Management, ITT Hartford Insurance Group, First State Management Group, Inc., Federal Home Loan Bank, and NAIC Securities in addition to the governement tennants. The government agencies housed at 7 World Trade Center were the United States Secret Service, the Department of Defense, the Immigration and Naturalization Service, the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission ("SEC"), the Mayor's Office of Emergency Management, the Internal Revenue Service Regional Council ("IRS"), and the Central Intelligence Agency ("CIA") under a number of guises. The Collapse At 5:20 pm EST on September 11, 2001 Seven World Trade Center collapsed. This event, in combination with the collapse of Towers 1 and 2 of the World Trade Center, constituted the worst building disaster in recorded American History. However, Building 7 was not "that" close and prior to it going down, muffled explosions were heard by the recnetly evacuated firemen - many of whom say that they could have saved the building had not they been ordered out. The Commerce Department's National Institute of Standards and Technology conducted a three year $24 million investigation into the structural failure and collapse, including Seven World Trade Center. It is generally seen as a "whitewash". Controversy has since grown and speculations as to the exact cause of the building's collapse abound in literature and Internet sites worldwide. Conspiracy theorists have suggested a range of alternative possibilities. Reconstruction of 7 World Trade Center began in 2002 and is scheduled for occupancy in the last quarter of this year. The 1,700,000 square foot building will be 52 floors with a more narrow footprint at ground level than its predecessor. This building is not included in the World Trade Center master plan by Daniel Libeskind and thus does not share the new architectural design of the rest of the site. It has been reported that the first tenant to lease space in the building besides Silverstein himself is American Express Financial Services. It is said that they have leased 20,000 square feet (1,858 m²). No word on the CIA. Trivia: WTC 7 was the setting of the 1988 movie "Working Girl." in which the 1933 Double Eagle was seen - it was temporarily stored in the US Secret Service Vaults at 7 along with billions in gold and bearer bonds. It was removed months before the tragic event to Fort Knox before its record-breaking sale in New York for $7.59 Million in 2002. Hmmm... just a lucky break, one must surmise. These vaults were said to have house at least $2 billion worth of untraceable wealth, perhaps much more - presumed to have been insured and lost in 9/11, but these funds could easily have been transfered elsewhere to finance clandestine activitites - at the expense of the French and Germans - who largely insured the building. Again... low probability, but not non-zero. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 21 09:53:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jALHr5nn013701; Mon, 21 Nov 2005 09:53:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jALHr0J3013649; Mon, 21 Nov 2005 09:53:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 09:53:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43820947.10803 ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 10:52:07 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BYU. professor thinks bombs, not planes, toppled WTC References: <1f5f481f4bbc.1f4bbc1f5f48 ncf.ca> <002601c5ee3c$031a9790$2e027841@xptower> <001201c5ee4b$2f1ced70$6401a8c0@NuDell> <4381F2A2.10807@ix.netcom.com> <006601c5eeb8$464aaf60$6401a8c0@NuDell> In-Reply-To: <006601c5eeb8$464aaf60$6401a8c0 NuDell> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64529 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > > Ed, > >> 1. How would placement of explosives be kept secret? >> 2. How could the CIA be sure that collapse of the building would >> destroy everything and why would they care? After all, the site can >> be completely guarded, being in NY city, unlike a building in an >> unfriendly country. > > > > Please remember that I specifically stated that the web-site had > presented a "plausible" case, and not that it was believable by me. > > In fact, I would give it a low, but non-zero, probability of being > correct. > > However, one should never underestimate the duplicity of government, in > general, and especially a government-unto-itself, like the CIA. My main problem is with the original idea, not with you. You are doing what should be done to examine the idea. My issue now is why would such an assertion be made and believed in the first place? I suggest, for people to believe such an idea would require them to totally distrust our government at a basic level and even question its sanity. Granted that no government can be trusted at some level and our government has done some rather stupid and nasty things. Nevertheless, suggesting that something as insane as planting preactivated explosives in public buildings goes beyond any possible act of a rational government, aside from being impossible to accomplish. It is the fact that people actually believe this might have been done that I find troubling. Yet, I suspect such people would actually vote for Bush et al. again, such is the condition of the body politic these days. Regards, Ed > Jones > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 21 10:05:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jALI4kd6018973; Mon, 21 Nov 2005 10:05:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jALI4dCF018910; Mon, 21 Nov 2005 10:04:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 10:04:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=AW4PxB7GE/BL6vyDqLhDQ+NN8+prJbNfLlAv/lMPxk4CCMnBzRE43/nTANm7Frtz; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220051112118417839 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Unsubscribe Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 11:04:17 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94024c321807492c4f1fdbe8b4ffc60436a350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.187 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64530 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII The Vortex cyclone has degraded into a topical depression. ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII The Vortex cyclone has degraded into a topical depression. ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 21 10:14:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jALIDcEB023537; Mon, 21 Nov 2005 10:13:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jALIDbtX023501; Mon, 21 Nov 2005 10:13:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 10:13:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43820DC4.6090801 ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 11:11:16 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BYU. professor thinks bombs, not planes, toppled WTC References: <1f5f481f4bbc.1f4bbc1f5f48 ncf.ca> <002601c5ee3c$031a9790$2e027841@xptower> <001201c5ee4b$2f1ced70$6401a8c0@NuDell> <4381F2A2.10807@ix.netcom.com> <009a01c5eec0$adf6a080$6401a8c0@NuDell> In-Reply-To: <009a01c5eec0$adf6a080$6401a8c0 NuDell> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64531 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones, my question is, at what point do suggested events become so implausible to be deemed impossible? At what point does an active imagination lose contact with reality and how can this point be identified? In other words, how can we define sanity and identify insanity? Without such an understanding, we can never interpret another person's claims or even the action of our government. Should we believe the people who claim the government has placed thought controlling devices in their homes? Should we believed claims that chemicals are being rained down upon us from secret airplanes in order to achieve an unknown objective? Should we believe that the weather is being controlled to increase the profits of the oil companies? Where does it end? Regards, Ed Jones Beene wrote: > Ed, > >> 1. How would placement of explosives be kept secret? > > >> 2. How could the CIA be sure that collapse of the building would >> destroy everything and why would they care? After all, the site can >> be completely guarded, being in NY city, unlike a building in an >> unfriendly country. > > > Let me preface this specific hypothetical answer to the first of these > logical questions with this: > > Please remember that I stated that the web-site had presented a > "plausible" case, and NOT that it was believable by me. In fact, I would > give it a low, but non-zero, probability of being correct. However... > > ...as to "how" the placement of explosives would have been kept secret, > that is very easy to imagine ... > > Two ways, really - but the easiest was in the unusual construction > technique...first, the Wiki entry, and others (as annotated by me): > > "7 World Trade Center" > > There are two buildings that have been named 7 World Trade Center. One > of which was destroyed September 11, 2001 and one that now occupies the > same site. Although the two buildings share a name and a location, they > share no resemblance in architectural style - and an unusual amount of > secrecy according to those in the architectural profession. > > And it is somewhat remarkable that the site was rebuilt so soon, and > under suspicious circumstances. Some of the suspicion is external, and > relates to the amount of of gold and precious metals which were supposed > to have been stored in Secret Services vaults there. Some relates to the > lack of public details which were available and the fact that the site > was heavilt guarded during the construction phase. > > Seven World Trade Center first began construction in 1984, shortly after > the Iran incident, and in March of 1987 the building opened to become > "nominally" the seventh structure comprising the World Trade Center. > Since the CIA had been involved since day-one, thermite could have been > poured into the hollow columns of the design. Hollow coloumns were said > to have been a peculiarity of this design - but the detailed blueprints > of the "final" design, which was altered prior to construction, remain > secret to this day. > > The building was destroyed on September 11, 2001 in a series of > coordinated attacks but was largely untoched by falling debris. It is > the first steel building in the history of architecture to "supposedly" > fall from fire alone. Closer building to WTC 1,2 did not fall. The > structure had 47 floors and was 570 feet (174 m) in height. However only > 46 floors showed up as usable, and in keeping with the fact that many > building do no have a "13th floor" this is one place to hide a whole > floor - whose only purpose is in the event of emergency. > > The Center's management leased space to large financial institutions, > insurance companies, and government agencies. Apparently floor "13" was > sandwiched by management floors with no elevator stop there. > > No small companies were permitted as tenants in this building, according > to some who have tried to look into the details - also very unusual > since apparently many accountants and lawyers were salivating to get in > there. Also most unusual was the fact that a specific "terrorist" > insurance rider was taken out after the 1993 terrorist attack. Also a > major refurb was done in hte following year, and this could have been > when the building was rigged using the abandoned 13th floor and using > CIA operative contractors. > > The building housed Salomon Smith Barney, American Express Bank > International, Standard Chartered Bank, Provident Financial Management, > ITT Hartford Insurance Group, First State Management Group, Inc., > Federal Home Loan Bank, and NAIC Securities in addition to the > governement tennants. > > The government agencies housed at 7 World Trade Center were the United > States Secret Service, the Department of Defense, the Immigration and > Naturalization Service, the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission > ("SEC"), the Mayor's Office of Emergency Management, the Internal > Revenue Service Regional Council ("IRS"), and the Central Intelligence > Agency ("CIA") under a number of guises. > > The Collapse At 5:20 pm EST on September 11, 2001 Seven World Trade > Center collapsed. This event, in combination with the collapse of Towers > 1 and 2 of the World Trade Center, constituted the worst building > disaster in recorded American History. However, Building 7 was not > "that" close and prior to it going down, muffled explosions were heard > by the recnetly evacuated firemen - many of whom say that they could > have saved the building had not they been ordered out. > > The Commerce Department's National Institute of Standards and > Technology conducted a three year $24 million investigation into the > structural failure and collapse, including Seven World Trade Center. It > is generally seen as a "whitewash". Controversy has since grown and > speculations as to the exact cause of the building's collapse abound in > literature and Internet sites worldwide. Conspiracy theorists have > suggested a range of alternative possibilities. > > Reconstruction of 7 World Trade Center began in 2002 and is scheduled > for occupancy in the last quarter of this year. The 1,700,000 square > foot building will be 52 floors with a more narrow footprint at ground > level than its predecessor. This building is not included in the World > Trade Center master plan by Daniel Libeskind and thus does not share the > new architectural design of the rest of the site. > > It has been reported that the first tenant to lease space in the > building besides Silverstein himself is American Express Financial > Services. It is said that they have leased 20,000 square feet (1,858 > m²). No word on the CIA. > > Trivia: WTC 7 was the setting of the 1988 movie "Working Girl." in which > the 1933 Double Eagle was seen - it was temporarily stored in the US > Secret Service Vaults at 7 along with billions in gold and bearer bonds. > It was removed months before the tragic event to Fort Knox before its > record-breaking sale in New York for $7.59 Million in 2002. Hmmm... just > a lucky break, one must surmise. > > These vaults were said to have house at least $2 billion worth of > untraceable wealth, perhaps much more - presumed to have been insured > and lost in 9/11, but these funds could easily have been transfered > elsewhere to finance clandestine activitites - at the expense of the > French and Germans - who largely insured the building. Again... low > probability, but not non-zero. > > Jones > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 21 11:21:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jALJKS2w026946; Mon, 21 Nov 2005 11:20:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jALJIakx026175; Mon, 21 Nov 2005 11:18:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 11:18:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 14:08:04 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: BYU. professor thinks bombs, not planes, toppled WTC To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <20c55620b193.20b19320c556 ncf.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 Patch 2 (built Jul 14 2004) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-language: en Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Content-disposition: inline X-Accept-Language: en Priority: normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64532 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: =3CBODY=3E=3CP=3E=3C/P=3E =3CP=3E=3CB=3EHi=26nbsp=3Ball=2C=3C/B=3E=3C/P=3E =3CP=3E=3CSTRONG=3EI would like interview the=26nbsp=3Barchitects of the = WT=2E=3C/STRONG=3E=3C/P=3E =3CP=3E=3CSTRONG=3EI suspect they designed the WT=26nbsp=3Bwith its futur= e demolition=3C/STRONG=3E=3C/P=3E =3CP=3E=3CSTRONG=3Ein mind=2C which is one of the reasons=26nbsp=3Bwhy th= e buildings collapsed=3C/STRONG=3E=3C/P=3E =3CP=3E=3CSTRONG=3Eso rapid and relatively neatly=2E=26nbsp=3BSuch buildi= ngs are no longer designed to last=2E=3C/STRONG=3E=3C/P=3E =3CP=3ESince the 1960=27s skyscappers=26nbsp=3Bhave=26nbsp=3Bbecome=26nbs= p=3Bjust another form of capital=2E=3C/P=3E =3CP=3EHarry=3C/P=3E =3CP=3E=26nbsp=3B=3C/P=3E =3CP=3E=26nbsp=3B=3C/P=3E =3CP=3E=3CB=3E----- Original Message -----=3C/B=3E=3C/P=3E =3CP=3E=3C/P=3E=3CB=3EFrom=3C/B=3E=3A Edmund Storms =26lt=3Bstorms2=40ix=2E= netcom=2Ecom=26gt=3B =3CP=3E=3C/P=3E=3CB=3EDate=3C/B=3E=3A Monday=2C November 21=2C 2005 1=3A1= 1 pm =3CP=3E=3C/P=3E=3CB=3ESubject=3C/B=3E=3A Re=3A BYU=2E professor thinks bo= mbs=2C not planes=2C toppled WTC =3CP=3E=3C/P=3E =3CP=3E=3C/P=3E=26gt=3B Jones=2C my question is=2C at what point do sugge= sted events become so =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B implausible to be deemed impossibl= e=3F At what point does an active =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B imagination lose conta= ct with reality and how can this point be =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B identified=3F = In other words=2C how can we define sanity and identify =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B = insanity=3F Without such an understanding=2C we can never interpret =3CBR= =3E=26gt=3B another =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B person=27s claims or even the action= of our government=2E Should we =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B believe =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B= the people who claim the government has placed thought controlling =3CBR= =3E=26gt=3B devices in their homes=3F Should we believed claims that chem= icals =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B are =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B being rained down upon us fro= m secret airplanes in order to =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B achieve an =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B= unknown objective=3F Should we believe that the weather is being =3CBR=3E= =26gt=3B controlled to increase the profits of the oil companies=3F Where= =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B does it end=3F =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B Regard= s=2C =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B Ed =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B Jones Beene wr= ote=3A =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B Ed=2C =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B = =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B 1=2E How would placement of ex= plosives be kept secret=3F =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26= gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B 2=2E How could the CIA be sure th= at collapse of the building =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B would =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt= =3B=26gt=3B destroy everything and why would they care=3F After all=2C th= e =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B site can =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B be complete= ly guarded=2C being in NY city=2C unlike a building in =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B a= n =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=26gt=3B unfriendly country=2E =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B= =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B Let me pref= ace this specific hypothetical answer to the first of =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B th= ese =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B logical questions with this=3A =3CBR=3E=26g= t=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B Please remember that I stated tha= t the web-site had presented a =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =22plausible=22 = case=2C and NOT that it was believable by me=2E In fact=2C =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B= I would =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B give it a low=2C but non-zero=2C proba= bility of being correct=2E =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B However=2E=2E=2E=26gt=3B =3CB= R=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =2E=2E=2Eas to =22how=22 the placement of explosive= s would have been kept =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B secret=2C =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B= that is very easy to imagine =2E=2E=2E =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E= =26gt=3B =26gt=3B Two ways=2C really - but the easiest was in the unusual= =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B construction =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B technique=2E=2E=2E= first=2C the Wiki entry=2C and others (as annotated by me)=3A =3CBR=3E=26= gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =227 World Trade Center=22 =3CBR= =3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B There are two buildings th= at have been named 7 World Trade =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B Center=2E One =3CBR=3E=26= gt=3B =26gt=3B of which was destroyed September 11=2C 2001 and one that n= ow =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B occupies the =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B same site=2E A= lthough the two buildings share a name and a =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B location=2C= they =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B share no resemblance in architectural sty= le - and an unusual =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B amount of =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B = secrecy according to those in the architectural profession=2E =3CBR=3E=26= gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B And it is somewhat remarkable th= at the site was rebuilt so soon=2C =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B and =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B = =26gt=3B under suspicious circumstances=2E Some of the suspicion is =3CBR= =3E=26gt=3B external=2C and =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B relates to the amou= nt of of gold and precious metals which were =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B supposed =3C= BR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B to have been stored in Secret Services vaults ther= e=2E Some =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B relates to the =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B lack = of public details which were available and the fact that =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B= the site =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B was heavilt guarded during the constr= uction phase=2E =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B Seven= World Trade Center first began construction in 1984=2C =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B = shortly after =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B the Iran incident=2C and in March= of 1987 the building opened to =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B become =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B = =26gt=3B =22nominally=22 the seventh structure comprising the World Trade= =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B Center=2E =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B Since the CIA had b= een involved since day-one=2C thermite could =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B have been =3C= BR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B poured into the hollow columns of the design=2E Ho= llow coloumns =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B were said =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B to hav= e been a peculiarity of this design - but the detailed =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B b= lueprints =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B of the =22final=22 design=2C which wa= s altered prior to construction=2C =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B remain =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B= =26gt=3B secret to this day=2E =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B= =26gt=3B The building was destroyed on September 11=2C 2001 in a series = of =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B coordinated attacks but was largely untoched= by falling debris=2E =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B It is =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B th= e first steel building in the history of architecture to =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B= =22supposedly=22 =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B fall from fire alone=2E Close= r building to WTC 1=2C2 did not fall=2E =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B The =3CBR=3E=26g= t=3B =26gt=3B structure had 47 floors and was 570 feet (174 m) in height=2E= =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B However only =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B 46 floors showed= up as usable=2C and in keeping with the fact that =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B many = =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B building do no have a =2213th floor=22 this is = one place to hide a =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B whole =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B floo= r - whose only purpose is in the event of emergency=2E =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26= gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B The Center=27s management leased space to= large financial =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B institutions=2C =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B= insurance companies=2C and government agencies=2E Apparently floor =3CBR= =3E=26gt=3B =2213=22 was =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B sandwiched by manageme= nt floors with no elevator stop there=2E =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E= =26gt=3B =26gt=3B No small companies were permitted as tenants in this bu= ilding=2C =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B according =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B to some wh= o have tried to look into the details - also very =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B unusua= l =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B since apparently many accountants and lawyers= were salivating to =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B get in =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B the= re=2E Also most unusual was the fact that a specific =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =22= terrorist=22 =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B insurance rider was taken out afte= r the 1993 terrorist attack=2E =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B Also a =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26= gt=3B major refurb was done in hte following year=2C and this could have = =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B been =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B when the building was rig= ged using the abandoned 13th floor and =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B using =3CBR=3E=26= gt=3B =26gt=3B CIA operative contractors=2E =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3C= BR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B The building housed Salomon Smith Barney=2C Americ= an Express Bank =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B International=2C Standard Chart= ered Bank=2C Provident Financial =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B Management=2C =3CBR=3E=26= gt=3B =26gt=3B ITT Hartford Insurance Group=2C First State Management Gro= up=2C =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B Inc=2E=2C =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B Federal Home L= oan Bank=2C and NAIC Securities in addition to the =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt= =3B governement tennants=2E =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26= gt=3B The government agencies housed at 7 World Trade Center were the =3C= BR=3E=26gt=3B United =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B States Secret Service=2C t= he Department of Defense=2C the =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B Immigration and =3CBR=3E= =26gt=3B =26gt=3B Naturalization Service=2C the U=2ES=2E Securities and E= xchange =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B Commission =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B (=22SEC=22)= =2C the Mayor=27s Office of Emergency Management=2C the =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B = Internal =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B Revenue Service Regional Council (=22I= RS=22)=2C and the Central =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B Intelligence =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B = =26gt=3B Agency (=22CIA=22) under a number of guises=2E =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B = =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B The Collapse At 5=3A20 pm EST on Septe= mber 11=2C 2001 Seven World =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B Trade =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt= =3B Center collapsed=2E This event=2C in combination with the collapse =3C= BR=3E=26gt=3B of Towers =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B 1 and 2 of the World Tr= ade Center=2C constituted the worst =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B building =3CBR=3E=26= gt=3B =26gt=3B disaster in recorded American History=2E However=2C Buildi= ng 7 was =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B not =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =22that=22 close = and prior to it going down=2C muffled explosions were =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B he= ard =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B by the recnetly evacuated firemen - many of= whom say that they =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B could =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B have= saved the building had not they been ordered out=2E =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26= gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B The Commerce Department=27s National Inst= itute of Standards and =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B Technology conducted a t= hree year =2424 million investigation =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B into the =3CBR=3E=26= gt=3B =26gt=3B structural failure and collapse=2C including Seven World T= rade =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B Center=2E It =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B is generally= seen as a =22whitewash=22=2E Controversy has since grown =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B= and =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B speculations as to the exact cause of the = building=27s collapse =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B abound in =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B= literature and Internet sites worldwide=2E Conspiracy theorists =3CBR=3E= =26gt=3B have =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B suggested a range of alternative = possibilities=2E =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B Reco= nstruction of 7 World Trade Center began in 2002 and is =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B = scheduled =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B for occupancy in the last quarter of = this year=2E The 1=2C700=2C000 =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B square =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26= gt=3B foot building will be 52 floors with a more narrow footprint at =3C= BR=3E=26gt=3B ground =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B level than its predecessor= =2E This building is not included in the =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B World =3CBR=3E=26= gt=3B =26gt=3B Trade Center master plan by Daniel Libeskind and thus does= not =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B share the =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B new architectur= al design of the rest of the site=2E =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26= gt=3B =26gt=3B It has been reported that the first tenant to lease space = in the =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B building besides Silverstein himself is = American Express =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B Financial =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B Ser= vices=2E It is said that they have leased 20=2C000 square feet =3CBR=3E=26= gt=3B (1=2C858 =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B m=B2)=2E No word on the CIA=2E =3C= BR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B Trivia=3A WTC 7 was the = setting of the 1988 movie =22Working Girl=2E=22 =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B in which= =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B the 1933 Double Eagle was seen - it was tempor= arily stored in =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B the US =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B Secret = Service Vaults at 7 along with billions in gold and =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B bear= er bonds=2E =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B It was removed months before the tr= agic event to Fort Knox =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B before its =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26g= t=3B record-breaking sale in New York for =247=2E59 Million in 2002=2E =3C= BR=3E=26gt=3B Hmmm=2E=2E=2E just =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B a lucky break=2C= one must surmise=2E =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B = These vaults were said to have house at least =242 billion worth =3CBR=3E= =26gt=3B of =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B untraceable wealth=2C perhaps much = more - presumed to have been =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B insured =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26= gt=3B and lost in 9/11=2C but these funds could easily have been =3CBR=3E= =26gt=3B transfered =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B elsewhere to finance clande= stine activitites - at the expense of =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B the =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B= =26gt=3B French and Germans - who largely insured the building=2E Again=2E= =2E=2E =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B low =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B probability=2C but = not non-zero=2E =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B Jones= =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =3C/BODY=3E From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 21 11:50:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jALJoI3A010274; Mon, 21 Nov 2005 11:50:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jALJoAbC010178; Mon, 21 Nov 2005 11:50:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 11:50:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <438224B6.1000504 ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 12:49:10 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BYU. professor thinks bombs, not planes, toppled WTC References: <20c55620b193.20b19320c556 ncf.ca> In-Reply-To: <20c55620b193.20b19320c556 ncf.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64533 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Your point being that at some time in the future, the owners of the buildings would explode the buildings to get rid of them and produce the mess we saw after 9/11. And you think this is a plausible way to recycle the land on which buildings stand in a crowded city. Ed Harry Veeder wrote: > Hi all, > > I would like interview the architects of the WT. > > I suspect they designed the WT with its future demolition > > in mind, which is one of the reasons why the buildings collapsed > > so rapid and relatively neatly. Such buildings are no longer designed to > last. > > Since the 1960's skyscappers have become just another form of capital. > > Harry > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Edmund Storms > > Date: Monday, November 21, 2005 1:11 pm > > Subject: Re: BYU. professor thinks bombs, not planes, toppled WTC > > > Jones, my question is, at what point do suggested events become so > > implausible to be deemed impossible? At what point does an active > > imagination lose contact with reality and how can this point be > > identified? In other words, how can we define sanity and identify > > insanity? Without such an understanding, we can never interpret > > another > > person's claims or even the action of our government. Should we > > believe > > the people who claim the government has placed thought controlling > > devices in their homes? Should we believed claims that chemicals > > are > > being rained down upon us from secret airplanes in order to > > achieve an > > unknown objective? Should we believe that the weather is being > > controlled to increase the profits of the oil companies? Where > > does it end? > > > > Regards, > > Ed > > > > Jones Beene wrote: > > > > > Ed, > > > > > >> 1. How would placement of explosives be kept secret? > > > > > > > > >> 2. How could the CIA be sure that collapse of the building > > would > > >> destroy everything and why would they care? After all, the > > site can > > >> be completely guarded, being in NY city, unlike a building in > > an > > >> unfriendly country. > > > > > > > > > Let me preface this specific hypothetical answer to the first of > > these > > > logical questions with this: > > > > > > Please remember that I stated that the web-site had presented a > > > "plausible" case, and NOT that it was believable by me. In fact, > > I would > > > give it a low, but non-zero, probability of being correct. > > However...> > > > ...as to "how" the placement of explosives would have been kept > > secret, > > > that is very easy to imagine ... > > > > > > Two ways, really - but the easiest was in the unusual > > construction > > > technique...first, the Wiki entry, and others (as annotated by me): > > > > > > "7 World Trade Center" > > > > > > There are two buildings that have been named 7 World Trade > > Center. One > > > of which was destroyed September 11, 2001 and one that now > > occupies the > > > same site. Although the two buildings share a name and a > > location, they > > > share no resemblance in architectural style - and an unusual > > amount of > > > secrecy according to those in the architectural profession. > > > > > > And it is somewhat remarkable that the site was rebuilt so soon, > > and > > > under suspicious circumstances. Some of the suspicion is > > external, and > > > relates to the amount of of gold and precious metals which were > > supposed > > > to have been stored in Secret Services vaults there. Some > > relates to the > > > lack of public details which were available and the fact that > > the site > > > was heavilt guarded during the construction phase. > > > > > > Seven World Trade Center first began construction in 1984, > > shortly after > > > the Iran incident, and in March of 1987 the building opened to > > become > > > "nominally" the seventh structure comprising the World Trade > > Center. > > > Since the CIA had been involved since day-one, thermite could > > have been > > > poured into the hollow columns of the design. Hollow coloumns > > were said > > > to have been a peculiarity of this design - but the detailed > > blueprints > > > of the "final" design, which was altered prior to construction, > > remain > > > secret to this day. > > > > > > The building was destroyed on September 11, 2001 in a series of > > > coordinated attacks but was largely untoched by falling debris. > > It is > > > the first steel building in the history of architecture to > > "supposedly" > > > fall from fire alone. Closer building to WTC 1,2 did not fall. > > The > > > structure had 47 floors and was 570 feet (174 m) in height. > > However only > > > 46 floors showed up as usable, and in keeping with the fact that > > many > > > building do no have a "13th floor" this is one place to hide a > > whole > > > floor - whose only purpose is in the event of emergency. > > > > > > The Center's management leased space to large financial > > institutions, > > > insurance companies, and government agencies. Apparently floor > > "13" was > > > sandwiched by management floors with no elevator stop there. > > > > > > No small companies were permitted as tenants in this building, > > according > > > to some who have tried to look into the details - also very > > unusual > > > since apparently many accountants and lawyers were salivating to > > get in > > > there. Also most unusual was the fact that a specific > > "terrorist" > > > insurance rider was taken out after the 1993 terrorist attack. > > Also a > > > major refurb was done in hte following year, and this could have > > been > > > when the building was rigged using the abandoned 13th floor and > > using > > > CIA operative contractors. > > > > > > The building housed Salomon Smith Barney, American Express Bank > > > International, Standard Chartered Bank, Provident Financial > > Management, > > > ITT Hartford Insurance Group, First State Management Group, > > Inc., > > > Federal Home Loan Bank, and NAIC Securities in addition to the > > > governement tennants. > > > > > > The government agencies housed at 7 World Trade Center were the > > United > > > States Secret Service, the Department of Defense, the > > Immigration and > > > Naturalization Service, the U.S. Securities and Exchange > > Commission > > > ("SEC"), the Mayor's Office of Emergency Management, the > > Internal > > > Revenue Service Regional Council ("IRS"), and the Central > > Intelligence > > > Agency ("CIA") under a number of guises. > > > > > > The Collapse At 5:20 pm EST on September 11, 2001 Seven World > > Trade > > > Center collapsed. This event, in combination with the collapse > > of Towers > > > 1 and 2 of the World Trade Center, constituted the worst > > building > > > disaster in recorded American History. However, Building 7 was > > not > > > "that" close and prior to it going down, muffled explosions were > > heard > > > by the recnetly evacuated firemen - many of whom say that they > > could > > > have saved the building had not they been ordered out. > > > > > > The Commerce Department's National Institute of Standards and > > > Technology conducted a three year $24 million investigation > > into the > > > structural failure and collapse, including Seven World Trade > > Center. It > > > is generally seen as a "whitewash". Controversy has since grown > > and > > > speculations as to the exact cause of the building's collapse > > abound in > > > literature and Internet sites worldwide. Conspiracy theorists > > have > > > suggested a range of alternative possibilities. > > > > > > Reconstruction of 7 World Trade Center began in 2002 and is > > scheduled > > > for occupancy in the last quarter of this year. The 1,700,000 > > square > > > foot building will be 52 floors with a more narrow footprint at > > ground > > > level than its predecessor. This building is not included in the > > World > > > Trade Center master plan by Daniel Libeskind and thus does not > > share the > > > new architectural design of the rest of the site. > > > > > > It has been reported that the first tenant to lease space in the > > > building besides Silverstein himself is American Express > > Financial > > > Services. It is said that they have leased 20,000 square feet > > (1,858 > > > m²). No word on the CIA. > > > > > > Trivia: WTC 7 was the setting of the 1988 movie "Working Girl." > > in which > > > the 1933 Double Eagle was seen - it was temporarily stored in > > the US > > > Secret Service Vaults at 7 along with billions in gold and > > bearer bonds. > > > It was removed months before the tragic event to Fort Knox > > before its > > > record-breaking sale in New York for $7.59 Million in 2002. > > Hmmm... just > > > a lucky break, one must surmise. > > > > > > These vaults were said to have house at least $2 billion worth > > of > > > untraceable wealth, perhaps much more - presumed to have been > > insured > > > and lost in 9/11, but these funds could easily have been > > transfered > > > elsewhere to finance clandestine activitites - at the expense of > > the > > > French and Germans - who largely insured the building. Again... > > low > > > probability, but not non-zero. > > > > > > Jones > > > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 21 12:00:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jALK0Cvr014979; Mon, 21 Nov 2005 12:00:27 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jALK0BfQ014964; Mon, 21 Nov 2005 12:00:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 12:00:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00c501c5eed6$1d6d94e0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <1f5f481f4bbc.1f4bbc1f5f48 ncf.ca> <002601c5ee3c$031a9790$2e027841@xptower> <001201c5ee4b$2f1ced70$6401a8c0@NuDell> <4381F2A2.10807@ix.netcom.com> <009a01c5eec0$adf6a080$6401a8c0@NuDell> <43820DC4.6090801@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: BYU. professor thinks bombs, not planes, toppled WTC Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 11:59:42 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64534 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ed, > Jones, my question is, at what point do suggested events become > so implausible to be deemed impossible? At what point does an > active imagination lose contact with reality and how can this > point be identified? Like beauty, "plausibility" is in the eye of each beholder, but please... ... do not be so naive as to think that the more-implausible and the more-insane of the associated conspiracy theories which you and I have been hearing with regards to 9/11 - were not themselves planted or promoted by those whose interests involve keeping secret, one "less-implausible" event. >In other words, how can we define sanity and identify insanity? Yes, we can... but it is a shifting target... somewhat like defining "pornography" ... where the late Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart famoulsy exclaimed, "I know it when I see it" ... the so-called Potty-test. For a start, can we agree that invading a soverign country under false pretenses - is itself insane, correct? Now that we have established that underlying fact, we can move on to lesser instances of risk vs. rewards in governmental activity. With this Iraq invasion as a standard for insanity, one can not totally rule-out certain other activities - even if they are to some degree - implausible. > Without such an understanding, we can never interpret another > person's claims or even the action of our government. As sane individuals, most of us have great difficulty in discounting enough, the level of ingrained insanity in government, issuing out of the "red-scare" and "cold-war" years - when such was actively encouraged - and indeed promotions within the agency depended to a degree on who was the most extreme. > Should we believe the people who claim the government has placed > thought controlling devices in their homes? No, not unless they can produce the actual device > Should we believed claims that chemicals are being rained down > upon us from secret airplanes in order to achieve an unknown > objective? No. Not without trace evidence of such chemicals >Should we believe that the weather is being controlled to >increase the profits of the oil companies? Not for that particular end (profits), in-and-of-itself - but as to the braoder issue of influencing "weather control," as a plausible goal of high-level intervention... hmmm... now that you mention it... ...one hopes that you did not miss the latest news on Haarp ;-) Again this is something that is within the range of plausibility (for weather control) just based on the enormous amount of power being used. HAARP (the High frequency Active Auroral Research Program) will be adding 132 more transmitters to bring their total number of transmitters to 180. The installation began in 1993 with 18 transmitters, expanded to 48 in 1998 and will grow to 180 transmitters. The final expansion will bring the HAARP array to full power, with ERP increasing to about 4 billion Watts!! There is speculation that the project is an "effort to develop ways to jam the electronics of incoming missiles from Russia and/or China". 4 billion Watts oughtta be overkill for radio jamming but as for weahter control, who knows ?? Using the Potty-test, this amount of power for the stated aim is "insane" but is it insane enoguh to be related to an attmept at weather control? Doubtful, but plausible ... >Where does it end? > Regards, Ed Not with 4 billion watts, nor with contructing a new building number 7 - that much is for sure... Regards, Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 21 12:23:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jALKNBIm023116; Mon, 21 Nov 2005 12:23:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jALKN9oG023097; Mon, 21 Nov 2005 12:23:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 12:23:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 15:22:50 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: BYU. professor thinks bombs, not planes, toppled WTC To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <20dee0210d66.210d6620dee0 ncf.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 Patch 2 (built Jul 14 2004) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-language: en Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-Accept-Language: en Priority: normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64535 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status:

A planned demolition would have resulted in much less mess.

Harry

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>

Date: Monday, November 21, 2005 2:49 pm

Subject: Re: BYU. professor thinks bombs, not planes, toppled WTC

> Your point being that at some time in the future, the owners of
> the
> buildings would explode the buildings to get rid of them and
> produce the
> mess we saw after 9/11. And you think this is a plausible way to
> recycle the land on which buildings stand in a crowded city.
>
> Ed
>
> Harry Veeder wrote:
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I would like interview the architects of the WT.
> >
> > I suspect they designed the WT with its future demolition
> >
> > in mind, which is one of the reasons why the buildings collapsed
> >
> > so rapid and relatively neatly. Such buildings are no longer
> designed to
> > last.
> >
> > Since the 1960's skyscappers have become just another form of
> capital.>
> > Harry
> >
From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 21 12:29:02 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jALKSCTm025750; Mon, 21 Nov 2005 12:28:27 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jALKS5jm025680; Mon, 21 Nov 2005 12:28:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 12:28:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cathode (Cometary) Commentary Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 07:27:33 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <3994o1p0nden4mpvps8re9j45eelbosdt1 4ax.com> References: <0qnpn153cg9sn6dv5h038747t9mmmfsitq 4ax.com> <437CF012.6070009@ix.netcom.com> <5hgqn1h7cp5i3h0cj14gr0c4722rmm97ti@4ax.com> <437DF850.6030405@ix.netcom.com> <437E4C84.6030409@ix.netcom.com> <437FA4DA.10005@ix.netcom.com> <57ivn1p3hggjugepkngcqeo646ako968g2@4ax.com> <4380C1C8.2030207@ix.netcom.com> <4382014D.30601@ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: <4382014D.30601 ix.netcom.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta03ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.59.28] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Mon, 21 Nov 2005 20:27:32 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id jALKRcgj025341 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64536 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Edmund Storms's message of Mon, 21 Nov 2005 10:18:05 -0700: Hi, [snip] >>>In this case the other ion would have a positive charge equal >>>to the total number of electrons associated with the proton. If the >>>other ion is a proton, I would designate this as HyH, which would be >>>neutral. >> >> >> I believe what you are talking about here is an ionic bond between >> Hy- and a proton (though the wording is a little confusing). This >> may not exist as such, but rather as a dihydrino molecule. >> (Essentially a shrunken hydrogen molecule). > >Here is a list of possible combinations, where Hy is a proton having one >electron in a Mills quantum level and H is a proton having an electron >in a Bohr level. Which of these do you call a dihydrino molecule? > >1. Hy + H, where one Bohr electron exchanges between Bohr levels in the >Hy atom and the H atom. > If there are Bohr levels in the Hy atom, then this may be possible. (I see no reason why there wouldn't be, however I would expect them to be modified). I'm pretty much in the dark here. Mills' past spectrum experiments may help resolve the issue. He also has calculations for the levels I think, but not sure off hand where to find them (most of his book is calculations, so it's a bit like looking for a needle in a haystack). > >2. Hy + Hy, where the Mills electrons exchange between the two atoms. >No Bohr electrons are present. If both Hy are the same size, then this is the dihydrino molecule. It may only exist when they *are* the same size (my guess). > >In my description, Hy is a proton with one Mills electron and Hy- is a >proton with two Mills electrons. If the latter made a bond, it would be > >3. Hy- + H+, where no Bohr electrons would be present. Apparently you meant "If the latter made a bond ...with an H+". When a bare proton approaches Hy-, I think the two Mills electrons would be equally shared between both protons, resulting in a dihydrino molecule. I asked Mills about the reaction:- Hy + p -> Hy2+ (positive dihydrino molecular ion) and he thought that would happen, so I assume that Hy- + p -> Hy2 (dihydrino molecule) also works. (p = H+ = bare proton). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 21 12:55:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jALKt3mh005206; Mon, 21 Nov 2005 12:55:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jALKsu9J005124; Mon, 21 Nov 2005 12:54:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 12:54:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <438233E7.9000904 ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 13:53:59 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BYU. professor thinks bombs, not planes, toppled WTC References: <1f5f481f4bbc.1f4bbc1f5f48 ncf.ca> <002601c5ee3c$031a9790$2e027841@xptower> <001201c5ee4b$2f1ced70$6401a8c0@NuDell> <4381F2A2.10807@ix.netcom.com> <009a01c5eec0$adf6a080$6401a8c0@NuDell> <43820DC4.6090801@ix.netcom.com> <00c501c5eed6$1d6d94e0$6401a8c0@NuDell> In-Reply-To: <00c501c5eed6$1d6d94e0$6401a8c0 NuDell> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64537 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > Ed, > >> Jones, my question is, at what point do suggested events become so >> implausible to be deemed impossible? At what point does an active >> imagination lose contact with reality and how can this point be >> identified? > > > Like beauty, "plausibility" is in the eye of each beholder, but please... > > ... do not be so naive as to think that the more-implausible and the > more-insane of the associated conspiracy theories which you and I have > been hearing with regards to 9/11 - were not themselves planted or > promoted by those whose interests involve keeping secret, one > "less-implausible" event. > >> In other words, how can we define sanity and identify insanity? > > > Yes, we can... but it is a shifting target... somewhat like defining > "pornography" ... where the late Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart > famoulsy exclaimed, "I know it when I see it" ... the so-called Potty-test. > > For a start, can we agree that invading a soverign country under false > pretenses - is itself insane, correct? No, this is not insane, it just stupid. Bush et al. had logical reasons for invading, which if true and if they were the only considerations, would have made this effort look wise. However, they suffered from ignorance, hubris, and greed. As a result, facts and expected events were ignored in their enthusiasm. This defect is not insanity. > > Now that we have established that underlying fact, we can move on to > lesser instances of risk vs. rewards in governmental activity. With this > Iraq invasion as a standard for insanity, one can not totally rule-out > certain other activities - even if they are to some degree - implausible. But, the other actions have to be actually possible. The war was possible because 911 removed all common sense from Congressmen who only wanted to look good to their angry and frightened constituents. This is very much different from planting explosives in public buildings before 911. It also makes no sense for the government to overlook a terrorist plot because they would have no way of knowing the damage it would cause and which of them or their friends might be in harm's way. > >> Without such an understanding, we can never interpret another person's >> claims or even the action of our government. > > > As sane individuals, most of us have great difficulty in discounting > enough, the level of ingrained insanity in government, issuing out of > the "red-scare" and "cold-war" years - when such was actively encouraged > - and indeed promotions within the agency depended to a degree on who > was the most extreme. The questions I ask in deciding the degree of insanity are: 1. Are the claims clearly at odds with well established reality or are actions at odds with accepted behavior? 2. Do the claims or actions have a clear benefit to the person or government making them? 3. Are the claims or actions contradictory within themselves? Answers of yes, no, yes cause me to suspect insanity. In the use of explosives to bring down the Towers, I would answer yes, no, no. Consequently, I do not think the possibility is based on an insane act by the government. However, I do not believe such an act would be possible or would have been contemplated before 911. Now is a different story. Regards, Ed > >> Should we believe the people who claim the government has placed >> thought controlling devices in their homes? > > > No, not unless they can produce the actual device > >> Should we believed claims that chemicals are being rained down upon us >> from secret airplanes in order to achieve an unknown objective? > > > No. Not without trace evidence of such chemicals > >> Should we believe that the weather is being controlled to increase the >> profits of the oil companies? > > > Not for that particular end (profits), in-and-of-itself - but as to the > braoder issue of influencing "weather control," as a plausible goal of > high-level intervention... hmmm... now that you mention it... > > ...one hopes that you did not miss the latest news on Haarp ;-) Again > this is something that is within the range of plausibility (for weather > control) just based on the enormous amount of power being used. > > HAARP (the High frequency Active Auroral Research Program) will be > adding 132 more transmitters to bring their total number of transmitters > to 180. The installation began in 1993 with 18 transmitters, expanded > to 48 in 1998 and will grow to 180 transmitters. The final expansion > will bring the HAARP array to full power, with ERP increasing to about 4 > billion Watts!! > > There is speculation that the project is an "effort to develop ways to > jam the electronics of incoming missiles from Russia and/or China". > > 4 billion Watts oughtta be overkill for radio jamming but as for weahter > control, who knows ?? > > Using the Potty-test, this amount of power for the stated aim is > "insane" but is it insane enoguh to be related to an attmept at weather > control? > > Doubtful, but plausible ... > >> Where does it end? > > >> Regards, Ed > > > Not with 4 billion watts, nor with contructing a new building number 7 - > that much is for sure... > > Regards, > > Jones > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 21 13:04:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jALL3H4X008409; Mon, 21 Nov 2005 13:03:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jALL3CKk008386; Mon, 21 Nov 2005 13:03:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 13:03:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <438235ED.20803 pobox.com> Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 16:02:37 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.10) Gecko/20050719 Fedora/1.7.10-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BYU. professor thinks bombs, not planes, toppled WTC References: <1f5f481f4bbc.1f4bbc1f5f48 ncf.ca> <002601c5ee3c$031a9790$2e027841@xptower> <001201c5ee4b$2f1ced70$6401a8c0@NuDell> <4381F2A2.10807@ix.netcom.com> <009a01c5eec0$adf6a080$6401a8c0@NuDell> <43820DC4.6090801@ix.netcom.com> <00c501c5eed6$1d6d94e0$6401a8c0@NuDell> In-Reply-To: <00c501c5eed6$1d6d94e0$6401a8c0 NuDell> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <9nn0zB.A.5CC.PYjgDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64538 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > Ed, > >> Jones, my question is, at what point do suggested events become so >> implausible to be deemed impossible? At what point does an active >> imagination lose contact with reality and how can this point be >> identified? > > > Like beauty, "plausibility" is in the eye of each beholder, but please... > > ... do not be so naive as to think that the more-implausible and the > more-insane of the associated conspiracy theories which you and I have > been hearing with regards to 9/11 - were not themselves planted or > promoted by those whose interests involve keeping secret, one > "less-implausible" event. > >> In other words, how can we define sanity and identify insanity? > > > Yes, we can... but it is a shifting target... somewhat like defining > "pornography" ... where the late Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart > famoulsy exclaimed, "I know it when I see it" ... the so-called > Potty-test. > > For a start, can we agree that invading a soverign country under false > pretenses - is itself insane, correct? NO, absolutely NOT correct. It's dishonest, it's self-serving, it's icky, but it's absolutely NOT "insane" for any reasonable definition of the word. "Insanity" has to do with a breakdown in reasoning power and a loss of grasp on reality; it doesn't have anything to do with "honesty". (Ed Storms isn't accusing you of being dishonest and self-serving -- rather, he's accusing you of losing your grip, I think...) When Hitler invaded Poland that was arguably not an "insane" act. It could have been a major win for Germany and could have resulted in a large expansion of Hitler's power. It could also have been a major miscalculation but that doesn't make it "insane". When Hitler invaded Russia it arguably _was_ an "insane" act because no reasonable set of assumptions would lead to the conclusion that the result could be anything but a disaster for Germany and, by extension, for Hitler himself. An "insane act" could, perhaps, be defined as doing something with the expectation of achieving a result which your own knowledge combined with ordinary logic would rule out. Playing the nickle slot machines with the expectation of winning $1000 would be insane for anyone who understood probabilities and who read the commonly available information on payoff rates for small-value slots. For someone who didn't know anything about probability theory and who hadn't read the available information (published by the casinos themselves, IIRC) it would be foolish but it would probably not be correct to call it "insane". Invading Iraq may have been stupid as well as dishonest, but as far as I can see Bush's knowledge, combined with whatever reasoning power he could bring to bear on the problem, would not necessarily have led him to the conclusion that the result would be a fiasco. So I wouldn't call it "insane". Again, miscalculation != insane. > Now that we have established that underlying fact, we can move on to > lesser instances of risk vs. rewards in governmental activity. With > this Iraq invasion as a standard for insanity, Since there's no justification for such a standard, you've put yourself in the classic position of A & ^A => B From your assumption, you should be able to prove anything you like. > one can not totally rule-out certain other activities - even if they > are to some degree - implausible. > >> Without such an understanding, we can never interpret another >> person's claims or even the action of our government. > > > As sane individuals, most of us have great difficulty in discounting > enough, the level of ingrained insanity in government, You again mistake self-serving individuals who are dishonest and who may be stupid for lunatics. There is a large difference. Bureaucracy isn't typically a breeding ground for lunatics. As to the other sorts mentioned above, you may draw what conclusions you like. In the prisoner's dilemma, the convict who rats on his friends is self-serving and cowardly but not insane. Sane reasoning from incomplete information frequently leads people to conclusions that are not in anyone's long-term best interest. > issuing out of the "red-scare" and "cold-war" years - when such was > actively encouraged - and indeed promotions within the agency depended > to a degree on who was the most extreme. > >> Should we believe the people who claim the government has placed >> thought controlling devices in their homes? > > > No, not unless they can produce the actual device Bah -- this one falls on pure logic. The government's first use for a thought control device would obviously include ruling out the possibility that one might think ones thoughts were being controlled. Ergo, anyone who thinks their thoughts are being controlled, is wrong. (It's the _rest_ of us who should worry.) > >> Should we believed claims that chemicals are being rained down upon >> us from secret airplanes in order to achieve an unknown objective? > > > No. Not without trace evidence of such chemicals > >> Should we believe that the weather is being controlled to increase >> the profits of the oil companies? > > > Not for that particular end (profits), in-and-of-itself - but as to > the braoder issue of influencing "weather control," as a plausible > goal of high-level intervention... hmmm... now that you mention it... > > ...one hopes that you did not miss the latest news on Haarp ;-) Again > this is something that is within the range of plausibility (for > weather control) just based on the enormous amount of power being used. > > HAARP (the High frequency Active Auroral Research Program) will be > adding 132 more transmitters to bring their total number of > transmitters to 180. The installation began in 1993 with 18 > transmitters, expanded to 48 in 1998 and will grow to 180 > transmitters. The final expansion will bring the HAARP array to full > power, with ERP increasing to about 4 billion Watts!! > > There is speculation that the project is an "effort to develop ways to > jam the electronics of incoming missiles from Russia and/or China". > > 4 billion Watts oughtta be overkill for radio jamming but as for > weahter control, who knows ?? Incoming ICBMs don't communicate with using radio. In fact, they don't communicate, period. (That's where the "B" comes from, you may recall. Surely you remember Reagan and the "we'd just recall them" gaff?) So, to jam their "electronics" takes energy on the order of an EMP, because you need to actually scramble their brains, not just boost the noise background so they can't hear the commands coming down the channel from home base. 4 GW might very well be inadequate for the job. > > Using the Potty-test, this amount of power for the stated aim is > "insane" but is it insane enoguh to be related to an attmept at > weather control? > > Doubtful, but plausible ... > >> Where does it end? > > >> Regards, Ed > > > Not with 4 billion watts, nor with contructing a new building number 7 > - that much is for sure... > > Regards, > > Jones > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 21 13:05:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jALL4YhU008989; Mon, 21 Nov 2005 13:04:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jALL4WUO008955; Mon, 21 Nov 2005 13:04:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 13:04:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4382362A.5080304 ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 14:03:38 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BYU. professor thinks bombs, not planes, toppled WTC References: <20dee0210d66.210d6620dee0 ncf.ca> In-Reply-To: <20dee0210d66.210d6620dee0 ncf.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64539 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: How do you arrive at that conclusion? Have you ever been in NY and seen the area? The energy released when such a large structure falls is too much to contain. Such tall buildings are taken down one floor at a time, in reverse to the way they were built. Ed Harry Veeder wrote: > A planned demolition would have resulted in much less mess. > > Harry > > > snip From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 21 13:14:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jALLDqFi011920; Mon, 21 Nov 2005 13:14:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jALLDohI011896; Mon, 21 Nov 2005 13:13:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 13:13:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 16:13:22 -0500 From: hohlrauml6d netscape.net Message-Id: <8C7BCF789CA39B7-15D4-60DC mblkn-m13.sysops.aol.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 14738 Subject: World's 2nd Largest Oil Field in Decline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.131 X-Spam-Flag: YES Resent-Message-ID: <3KazGC.A.u5C.NijgDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64540 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://www.ameinfo.com/71519.html Kuwait's biggest field starts to run out of oil It was an incredible revelation last week that the second largest oil field in the world is exhausted and past its peak output. Yet that is what the Kuwait Oil Company revealed about its Burgan field. ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 21 13:29:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jALLSssi018128; Mon, 21 Nov 2005 13:29:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jALLSinC018046; Mon, 21 Nov 2005 13:28:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 13:28:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <012201c5eee2$7da370d0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <1f5f481f4bbc.1f4bbc1f5f48 ncf.ca> <002601c5ee3c$031a9790$2e027841@xptower> <001201c5ee4b$2f1ced70$6401a8c0@NuDell> <4381F2A2.10807@ix.netcom.com> <009a01c5eec0$adf6a080$6401a8c0@NuDell> <43820DC4.6090801@ix.netcom.com> <00c501c5eed6$1d6d94e0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <438233E7.9000904@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: BYU. professor thinks bombs, not planes, toppled WTC Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 13:28:18 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64541 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ed, > No, this is not insane, it just stupid. ...and there is a big difference? in·san·i·ty n. pl. in·san·i·ties Third definition Extreme foolishness; folly. The degree of "extreme" foolishness in regards to Iraq may depend how one feels about the lives of our young men who were lost - compared with the very limited amount of gain we would have had, even if the war had been the resoudning success that Cheney-Rumsfeld envisioned. >> As sane individuals, most of us have great difficulty in >> discounting enough, the level of ingrained insanity in >> government, issuing out of the "red-scare" and "cold-war" >> years - when such was actively encouraged - and indeed >> promotions within the agency depended to a degree on who was >> the most extreme. > The questions I ask in deciding the degree of insanity are: > 1. Are the claims clearly at odds with well established reality > or are actions at odds with accepted behavior? > 2. Do the claims or actions have a clear benefit to the person > or government making them? > 3. Are the claims or actions contradictory within themselves? > Answers of yes, no, yes cause me to suspect insanity. In the > use of explosives to bring down the Towers, I would answer yes, > no, no. > Consequently, I do not think the possibility is based on an > insane act by the government. However, I do not believe such an > act would be possible or would have been contemplated before > 911. Now is a different story. As I said before - FORGET the Twin-Towers and focus solely on building 7, remember? This was the building which was not struck by any airliner, and was some distance away from the Twin-Towers, but yet came down supposedly due to "fires" of unknown origin (presumably jet fuel that somehow miraculously escaped burning in the T-Ts, hours before, remember? This was the building in which zero lives were lost and that contained only CIA, government and financial offices, AND also contained vaults which supposedly contained several billion dollars in untraceable wealth, remember? This was the only steel-framed building in the history of architecture to fall due soley to fires, remember? This was also the building that firefighters who were on the scene claimed repeatedly that they could have saved, had they not been explicitly ordered to leave, remember? This was also the building that firefighters who were on the scene claimed that after having been explicitly ordered to leave, they heard muffled explosions, remember? Hmmm... Sometimes, perhaps... intentional memory-lapse for the purpose of making a point which is not substantiated by the precise evidence at hand, can disguise as more than the counter-balance to a too-vivid imagination... ...some might call it either obstinance or outright gullibility, no? Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 21 14:03:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jALM2IRc031433; Mon, 21 Nov 2005 14:02:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jALM2Huv031404; Mon, 21 Nov 2005 14:02:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 14:02:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 17:01:37 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7BCFE475C0D17-15D4-626D mblkn-m13.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d netscape.net References: <1f5f481f4bbc.1f4bbc1f5f48 ncf.ca> <002601c5ee3c$031a9790$2e027841@xptower> <001201c5ee4b$2f1ced70$6401a8c0@NuDell> <4381F2A2.10807@ix.netcom.com> <009a01c5eec0$adf6a080$6401a8c0@NuDell> <43820DC4.6090801@ix.netcom.com> <00c501c5eed6$1d6d94e0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <438233E7.9000904@ix.netcom.com> <012201c5eee2$7da370d0$6401a8c0@NuDell> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <012201c5eee2$7da370d0$6401a8c0 NuDell> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 14738 Subject: Re: BYU. professor thinks bombs, not planes, toppled WTC Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.131 X-Spam-Flag: YES Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id jALM1u5g031204 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64542 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The fires of WTC-7 are not of "unknown origin". There was the matter of 50,000 gallons of diesel fuel stored in the basement not far from the power substation large enough to run a small city. (sitting here wondering if there's thermite in our building columns as a thunderstorm passes overhead) I think 'insane' has been quite well defined. -----Original Message----- From: Jones Beene To: vortex-l eskimo.com Sent: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 13:28:18 -0800 Subject: Re: BYU. professor thinks bombs, not planes, toppled WTC This was the building which was not struck by any airliner, and was some distance away from the Twin-Towers, but yet came down supposedly due to "fires" of unknown origin (presumably jet fuel that somehow miraculously escaped burning in the T-Ts, hours before, remember?  ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 21 14:57:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jALMuaZU022637; Mon, 21 Nov 2005 14:56:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jALMuOhP022584; Mon, 21 Nov 2005 14:56:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 14:56:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <015801c5eeee$b5ba26b0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <1f5f481f4bbc.1f4bbc1f5f48 ncf.ca> <002601c5ee3c$031a9790$2e027841@xptower> <001201c5ee4b$2f1ced70$6401a8c0@NuDell> <4381F2A2.10807@ix.netcom.com> <009a01c5eec0$adf6a080$6401a8c0@NuDell> <43820DC4.6090801@ix.netcom.com> <00c501c5eed6$1d6d94e0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <438233E7.9000904@ix.netcom.com> <012201c5eee2$7da370d0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <8C7BCFE475C0D17-15D4-626D@mblkn-m13.sysops.aol.com> Subject: Re: BYU. professor thinks bombs, not planes, toppled WTC Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 14:55:46 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <9QvRRC.A.xgF.VClgDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64543 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi, > The fires of WTC-7 are not of "unknown origin". There was the > matter of 50,000 gallons of diesel fuel stored in the basement > not far from the power substation large enough to run a small > city. Yes. but these tanks were below ground level and even so, if every drop had burned, the building should have survived. The FEMA official analysis is still "unknown origin." Here are the very important case-studies of 5 similar fires in high-rises, which had more fuel (also from diesel substations), burned longer, and did NOT fall. Go about 4/5 down this page: http://thewebfairy.com/killtown/wtc7/fire.html J. After the main course, go here for your appetizer: http://thewebfairy.com/killtown/wtc7/pullit.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 21 16:33:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAM0Wook000548; Mon, 21 Nov 2005 16:33:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAM0WiQC000492; Mon, 21 Nov 2005 16:32:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 16:32:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <5354772.1132619543693.JavaMail.root mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 19:32:23 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BYU. professor thinks bombs, not planes, toppled WTC Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64544 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Edmund Storms writes: > How do you arrive at that conclusion? Have you ever been in NY and seen > the area? The energy released when such a large structure falls is too > much to contain. Such tall buildings are taken down one floor at a time, > in reverse to the way they were built. > >> A planned demolition would have resulted in much less mess. Perhaps a building as large as this in the middle of downtown cannot be subjected to explosive demolition, but many other very large structures are, nowadays. Stadiums, for example. The method produces much less mess than the WTC towers did for two reasons, mainly: 1. Toxic and dangerous materials are removed from the buildings beforehand. These include things like fluorescent light bulbs. When you pulverize a million of them it causes a lot of pollution. 2. They have sophisticated dust control. They sometimes build a temporary plastic structure around the site where the building will fall, and they spray water before and after the event to keep the dust down. There is some danger in doing this, but they pick a time when no one is around, such as early Sunday morning in a business district. They are very careful and the method usually works well, saving lots of energy, time and money. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 21 16:38:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAM0bskI002525; Mon, 21 Nov 2005 16:38:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAM0bhMn002468; Mon, 21 Nov 2005 16:37:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 16:37:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 19:37:07 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: BYU. professor thinks bombs, not planes, toppled WTC To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <21aa7121b7cb.21b7cb21aa71 ncf.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 Patch 2 (built Jul 14 2004) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-language: en Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-Accept-Language: en Priority: normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64545 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status:

Yes I have been to NewYork city and I have been up the WTC towers.

It is more of a speculation than a "conclusion".

Harry

----- Original Message -----

From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>

Date: Monday, November 21, 2005 4:03 pm

Subject: Re: BYU. professor thinks bombs, not planes, toppled WTC

> How do you arrive at that conclusion? Have you ever been in NY
> and seen
> the area? The energy released when such a large structure falls is
> too
> much to contain. Such tall buildings are taken down one floor at a
> time,
> in reverse to the way they were built.
>
> Ed
>
> Harry Veeder wrote:
>
> > A planned demolition would have resulted in much less mess.
> >
> > Harry
> >
> >
> > snip
>
> From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 21 18:43:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAM2g9c0004951; Mon, 21 Nov 2005 18:42:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAM2fl30004702; Mon, 21 Nov 2005 18:41:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 18:41:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 21:10:45 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7BD2115591198-1D24-520B mblkn-m15.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d netscape.net References: <1f5f481f4bbc.1f4bbc1f5f48 ncf.ca> <002601c5ee3c$031a9790$2e027841@xptower> <001201c5ee4b$2f1ced70$6401a8c0@NuDell> <4381F2A2.10807@ix.netcom.com> <009a01c5eec0$adf6a080$6401a8c0@NuDell> <43820DC4.6090801@ix.netcom.com> <00c501c5eed6$1d6d94e0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <438233E7.9000904@ix.netcom.com> <012201c5eee2$7da370d0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <8C7BCFE475C0D17-15D4-626D@mblkn-m13.sysops.aol.com> <015801c5eeee$b5ba26b0$6401a8c0@NuDell> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <015801c5eeee$b5ba26b0$6401a8c0 NuDell> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 14738 Subject: Re: BYU. professor thinks bombs, not planes, toppled WTC Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.133 X-Spam-Flag: NO Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id jAM2fPFs004344 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64546 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I'm sorry, but, your source site: http://thewebfairy.com does not constitute what my management tends to call a "reliable source". I direct you to the ASCE who, while agreeing that the study is not conclusive, consider the "long slow fire" explanation credible. You might wish to consider embrittlement of the structure after long exposure to the hydrocarbon fire. BTW, thermite accelerant would be detectable even today. -----Original Message----- From: Jones Beene To: vortex-l eskimo.com Sent: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 14:55:46 -0800 Subject: Re: BYU. professor thinks bombs, not planes, toppled WTC Hi,    > The fires of WTC-7 are not of "unknown origin". There was the > matter of 50,000 gallons of diesel fuel stored in the basement > not far from the power substation large enough to run a small > city.    Yes. but these tanks were below ground level and even so, if every drop had burned, the building should have survived.    The FEMA official analysis is still "unknown origin."    Here are the very important case-studies of 5 similar fires in high-rises, which had more fuel (also from diesel substations), burned longer, and did NOT fall. Go about 4/5 down this page:  http://thewebfairy.com/killtown/wtc7/fire.html    J.    After the main course, go here for your appetizer:  http://thewebfairy.com/killtown/wtc7/pullit.html   ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 21 19:30:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAM3Tb1I024875; Mon, 21 Nov 2005 19:29:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAM3TYCM024840; Mon, 21 Nov 2005 19:29:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 19:29:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4382907F.9080008 pobox.com> Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 22:29:03 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.10) Gecko/20050719 Fedora/1.7.10-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BYU. professor thinks bombs, not planes, toppled WTC References: <1f5f481f4bbc.1f4bbc1f5f48 ncf.ca> <002601c5ee3c$031a9790$2e027841@xptower> <001201c5ee4b$2f1ced70$6401a8c0@NuDell> <4381F2A2.10807@ix.netcom.com> <009a01c5eec0$adf6a080$6401a8c0@NuDell> <43820DC4.6090801@ix.netcom.com> <00c501c5eed6$1d6d94e0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <438233E7.9000904@ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: <438233E7.9000904 ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <1ENEMD.A.EEG.eCpgDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64547 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Edmund Storms wrote: > It also makes no sense for the government to overlook a terrorist > plot because they would have no way of knowing the damage it would > cause and which of them or their friends might be in harm's way. > Did you see the tape of Bush's non-reaction when he was informed that the twin towers had been hit? It's been a long time and my recollections are hazy, but here's what I recall: Bush was in an elementary school classroom, listening to a child read a story about ... goats, I think, but I'm no longer sure. A Man in Black tiptoed in and whispered the news in his ear, and Bush showed no apparent reaction, and gave no apparent instructions to the MIB, who tiptoed out again. 20 minutes later, Bush was still in the classroom, still listening to the story about goats, and he was informed by the MIB that the second tower had been hit. He continued to listen to the story about goats, and again gave no apparent instructions to the MIB, who again left the room, IIRC. Bush remained to the end of the story, at which point he applauded the child who had been reading IIRC, said a few words about education, and a minute or so after that he finally left the room and went on to deal with the business of the twin towers. This would be less remarkable had a spokesman for the White House not asserted shortly after that Bush had reacted to the news of the first hit _immediately_ by contacting ... whoever, don't recall at this late date ... and ordering ... whatever ... and generally getting on the ball as soon as he heard the first tower had been hit, well before the second tower had been hit. The video tape, which could otherwise have been explained as Bush using the time to collect his thoughts and figure out WTF to do while simultaneously acting cool to avoid causing panic in the classroom full of children in which he found himself, takes on a different aspect when we factor in the apparent attempt at covering up his otherwise innocent-seeming behavior. And then we must wonder if his apparent lack of surprise -- which could really have been coolness, had a spokesman not taken the trouble to lie about it in order to cover it up -- may actually have been ... lack of surprise. I don't buy conspiracy theories, as a rule, but after seeing that tape, along with the later commentary by the White House in which they "fled with no man pursuing", I really wondered. Sorry, I no longer have the link to the site that had the video clip, and I've long since forgotten the exact words of the White House spokesman who seemed to want to cover it up. I think it was all on "www.whatreallyhappened" for quite a while, but I'm not sure. As far as I know the authenticity of the tape was never called into question. But this sort of thing couldn't happen, could it? It's just too far out, too ridiculous. I mean, it never happened before in our history, did it? Duh ... anybody here forgotten Pearl Harbor? You know, that other attack to which 9/11 has been compared? Here's an old family story: Long long ago, Roosevelt (bless his heart -- the only one of the allies who gave a ! #$ about China) issued an ultimatum to Japan. An uncle of mine, who was very smart but slightly cracked and who would have fitted in perfectly on Vortex, called my father, who was also a close friend of his. He said to my dad, "Did you see the paper? Did you read what Roosevelt did?? Japan's got no choice -- they're going to hit us, within the next two weeks!" He wasn't clairvoyant, though; he told my dad that the thought Japan would hit us in the Phillipines, while they actually hit Hawaii. But his timing was dead-on: they bombed Pearl Harbor a week later. Now, the point of this story isn't that my uncle was brilliant, nor that he had inside information. He was smart, but he didn't have inside information, and I'm sure Roosevelt had folks on his staff who were just as smart as my Uncle Jack. THEREFORE ..... If Jack could figure it out, so could Roosevelt. In other words, Roosevelt, who was anything but dumb, must be assumed to have also known with a high degree of certainty that Japan was about to hit us. Forget the intercepted radio broadcast, the intelligence reports that weren't acted on -- just from first principles and a knowledge of their own actions in issuing the ultimatum, the White House _must_ have known the attack was coming, and must have known, to within a few days, when it would happen. But Roosevent didn't do anything to prepare, and the fleet was a flock of sitting ducks as a result ... the President knew the attack was coming, but he ignored it. (Speculating as to why he did that, is far beyond the scope of this post.) Maybe the comparisons with Pearl Harbor are more apt than Bush would have us realize. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 21 20:55:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAM4tCpr020382; Mon, 21 Nov 2005 20:55:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAM4tAUx020362; Mon, 21 Nov 2005 20:55:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 20:55:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <01c301c5ef20$da65e530$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <1f5f481f4bbc.1f4bbc1f5f48 ncf.ca> <002601c5ee3c$031a9790$2e027841@xptower> <001201c5ee4b$2f1ced70$6401a8c0@NuDell> <4381F2A2.10807@ix.netcom.com> <009a01c5eec0$adf6a080$6401a8c0@NuDell> <43820DC4.6090801@ix.netcom.com> <00c501c5eed6$1d6d94e0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <438233E7.9000904@ix.netcom.com> <4382907F.9080008@pobox.com> Subject: Re: BYU. professor thinks bombs, not planes, toppled WTC Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 20:54:42 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64548 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen, I think your main point goes something like this. One in authority (cabinet level up) does not need to necessarily actively conspire with the enemy, nor to instigate in any way an "event" (like 9/11) to benefit one's agenda enormously. Conspiracy with the enemy is insane! However, if one reasonably suspects the probability is there, based on the earlier WTC attack, and if one has intercepted messages and obtained secret information by certain methods (not "really" torture, says Rummy) and if one knows the approximate date of a planned attack, and has seen mention of likely targets, then...? With this kind of intel, one can plan ahead to maximize the net benefit to your agenda from such an attack - if it does occur, while doing nothing drastic to actually stop it. Maybe you hope it does not occur, because there will be inevitable loss of life - but you plan to make lemonade from catastrophe-lemons, if it does happen. That has been the charge against FDR going back to an earlier generation. That is the crux of the charge against the hawks in the administration - esp. Cheney/ Rumsfeld. I think (if they were complicit) that they were most likely working behind Bush's back, and that even our President did not know what they knew. Given this - and knowing that black-ops require lots of off-the-record money, which Congress isn't providing, and given that you coincidentally know that in your very office building, just floors away, there are vaults containing billions of untraceable funds ... ... hmm... sounds like motivation to me, since the only net looser will be the European insurers... you know, the ones in countries like France and Germany. As it turns out, they did not help us out in the later invasions, and that was a bit of a surprise, BUT maybe understandable now - IF one of the reasons they did not help is that they suspected tacit complicity in this 9/11 affair, which cost them about $18 of the $21 billion in insured losses. IOW in "following the buck," the Europeans lost a lot more in actual wealth than we did from 9/11. BTW it was likely no accident that the building management, whose offices were within a few floors of the CIA, secured the enormous amount of terrorism coverage from Europe, rather than from the USA. And isn't it a bit curious that none of the top level folks in WTC7 were in their offices on 9/11 ??? It is also plausible that those bulging vaults in WTC7 were completely emptied-out in early Fall of 2001, and that no one is the wiser today. That is why I earlier mentioned the incident involving the precious 1933 Double Eagle, as it was being stored in the Secret Service Vaults at 7 along with billions in gold and bearer bonds, but was inexplicably removed before the tragic event (and before its record-breaking sale in New York for $7.59 Million in 2002). Tip of the iceberg? And yes, all of this only goes to the issue of "plausibility" and it most unlikely. Plus, as a good patriot, I hope and pray that it is not true... OTOH whenever, I see that frightening visage which is Rummy, I am doing what must be a past-life double-take, looking for the SS armband. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 21 21:43:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAM5ghpT003373; Mon, 21 Nov 2005 21:42:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAM5gfsi003347; Mon, 21 Nov 2005 21:42:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 21:42:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20051121213622.029033a8 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 21:38:59 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: New: large, old paper by Iyengar et al. In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20051115192405.059f8570 pop.mindspring.com> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051115192405.059f8570 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64549 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > >I did a lot of work to prepare this paper, so you folks better read it! Jed, Good work. I consider this paper very clear and worthy of recognition. I am not aware of any other such paper that is so illustrative of the BARC work, are you? I'm curious how this paper has surfaced now, 15 years later? Steve From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 21 21:51:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAM5p9sP006918; Mon, 21 Nov 2005 21:51:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAM5p7qf006896; Mon, 21 Nov 2005 21:51:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 21:51:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <3AB2240B6206D911B21500508B6D8E307A94CA caraupermb01.carrier-apac.com.au> From: John.Rudiger carrier.utc.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: OT - Company Policy!!! Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 13:47:22 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64550 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi all, how unfortunate that the below is all so true in today's society! Start with a cage containing five monkeys. Inside the cage, hang a banana on a string and place a set of stairs under it. Before long, a monkey will go to the stairs and start to climb towards the banana. As soon as he touches the stairs, spray all of the other monkeys with cold water. After a while, another monkey makes an attempt with the same result - all the other monkeys are sprayed with cold water. Pretty soon, when another monkey tries to climb the stairs, the other monkeys will try to prevent it. Now, put away the cold water. Remove one monkey from the cage and replace it with a new one. The new monkey sees the banana and wants to climb the stairs. To his surprise and horror, all of the other monkeys attack him. After another attempt and attack, he knows that if he tries to climb the stairs, he will be assaulted. Next, remove another of the original five monkeys and replace it with a new one. The newcomer goes to the stairs and is attacked. The previous newcomer takes part in the punishment with enthusiasm! Likewise, replace a third original monkey with a new one, then a fourth, and then the fifth. Every time the newest monkey takes to the stairs, he is attacked. Most of the monkeys that are beating him have no idea why they were not permitted to climb the stairs or why they are participating in the beating of the newest monkey. After replacing all the original monkeys, none of the remaining monkeys have ever been sprayed with cold water. Nevertheless, no monkey ever again approaches the stairs to try for the banana. Why not? Because as far as they know that's the way it's always been done around here. And that, my friends, is how company policy begins. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 21 21:59:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAM5v4NN009996; Mon, 21 Nov 2005 21:57:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAM5v0wG009891; Mon, 21 Nov 2005 21:57:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 21:57:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20051120224146.029b1fa0 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 21:53:24 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: challenging papers In-Reply-To: <43810E48.2040605 iinet.net.au> References: <43810E48.2040605 iinet.net.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64551 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Wesley, At 04:01 PM 11/20/2005, you wrote: >I've said to a friend that most critics of cold fusion can't quote or cite >a single paper critical of cold fusion. It's certainly correct in >Australia. but is it correct in all cases. What are the papers critical of >cold fusion and have we debunked them all in turn? We need a list and >counter list on Jeds web site or ISCMNS or some where. AFAIK, there are none in the last decade. The feeling I get about former critics is a) that some of them don't want to give it any attention and hope that maybe it will go away. b) that some of them would endorse it if their colleagues would endorse it ...chicken and egg thing... stigma problem. Also, there really seem to be very few critics willing to stick their necks out now and take a strong position against it. Really, no kidding. I watch every word that comes out of their mouths and into print or is heard on the radio. Park is changing his tune. Bard's comments are teetering on lunacy. Huizenga and Happer, I think are the only people in recent years who've been willing to say anything strong against cold fusion, and their comments too, are clearly filled with more invective than substance. You just wait. Another few years and you'll not see anything in print from Huizenga and Happer. Now, as for what' s real at the present moment: The Burgan field situation, though seemingly unfit for the NYT, is monumental. http://newenergytimes.com/Newsmedia/2005/KuwaitsBiggestField.htm Smart people are watching news like this and their ears are perked up. The battle is no longer with opposition, it is with ignorance. And intelligent people are starting to get curious. They are starting to consider CF. Watch for this. Help them when the time is right. Steve From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 21 22:15:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAM6F7pk018751; Mon, 21 Nov 2005 22:15:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAM6F5bF018708; Mon, 21 Nov 2005 22:15:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 22:15:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20051121215614.02910138 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 22:11:38 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: large, old paper by Iyengar et al. In-Reply-To: <002101c5ea57$82b87c30$20037841 xptower> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051115192405.059f8570 pop.mindspring.com> <002101c5ea57$82b87c30$20037841 xptower> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_709607515==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: <0Xgf0B.A.8jE.odrgDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64552 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_709607515==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > >This is important because it shows how much dynamic, promising research >was going on in India from 1989 to the mid-90s. Unfortunately, nothing is >happening there now, as far as I know. I have heard that after Iyengar and >the others retired, the enemies of cold fusion moved in and took steps to >prevent any more research. Jed, The times, they are a changing. Keep doing what you are doing. We're having an impact. You make the papers - I'll make the noise. Steve 4 OCT 2004 "I enjoyed reading your book, which brought back memories of what happened in those early years. I am not involved in any experiments in the last decade, but I keep my interest in the field, and I hope that the multiplication of research effort in the future will open up the subject again. With best regards, P. K. Iyengar, Chairman (ret) AEC, India 19 APR 2005 Dear Steven, We haven't corresponded for quite some time. Trust all is well with you. I recently bumped into Dr.xxxxxx. He has now been re-inducted as a member of the Indian Atomic Energy commission. He is an intelligent engineer who was responsible from the very beginning (in India) to design and construct many Nuclear Power Plants of the CANDU type (Heavy water). He has been somewhat curious about and interested in Cold Fusion. He asked me how are things now in the field. So I took the opportunity to try to get him to use is influence to restart CF research in BARC again. The present Director of xxxx, Dr.xxxxxxx is also very supportive of CF. But he has done nothing to actually revive research in the field at xxxx. (I am going to meet Dr. xxxxxx during my next visit to Bombay during the first week of May.) Coming to the point I was wondering if you think you can air-dash a copy of your book to Dr. xxxxxxxxxxx, in the interest of the field. These guys can afford to buy several copies; I am going to lobby with them to place orders. But meanwhile will you take the risk of airfreighting a copy to Dr. xxxxxxxx who lives in the xxxxxxxxxxxxx in S.India if I give you his home address? He wanted me to send him a quick short note of the status and why I think the Indian Department of Atomic Energy should re-enter the field. I cant think of a better summary of it all than your book! I would appreciate your feedback. Srini 29 APR 2005 Dear Mr.Steven Krivit, It was very kind of you and Nadine Winocur to send me a copy of your book "The Rebirth of Cold Fusion". I have read the book with great interest. I compliment both of you for writing a very readable book conveying the drama surrounding the subject. I propose to discuss this new insight into cold fusion with some of my colleagues in this part of the world to find out how interest could be stimulated to look at this problem afresh. [anon, AEC India] -eof --=====================_709607515==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

This is important because it shows how much dynamic, promising research was going on in India from 1989 to the mid-90s. Unfortunately, nothing is happening there now, as far as I know. I have heard that after Iyengar and the others retired, the enemies of cold fusion moved in and took steps to prevent any more research.


Jed,

The times, they are a changing. Keep doing what you are doing. We're having an impact. You make the papers - I'll make the noise.

Steve


4 OCT 2004
"I enjoyed reading your book, which brought back memories of what happened in those early years. I am not involved in any experiments in the last decade, but I keep my interest in
the field, and I hope that the multiplication of research effort in the future will open up the subject again.
With best regards,
P. K. Iyengar, Chairman (ret) AEC, India


19 APR 2005
Dear Steven,

We haven't corresponded for quite some time. Trust all is well with you.

I recently bumped into Dr.xxxxxx. He has now been
re-inducted as a member of the Indian Atomic Energy commission. He is
an intelligent engineer who was responsible from the very beginning
(in India) to design and construct many Nuclear Power Plants of the
CANDU type (Heavy water). He has been somewhat curious about and
interested in Cold Fusion. He asked me how are things now in the
field. So I took the opportunity to try to get him to use is influence
to restart CF research in BARC again.

The present Director of xxxx, Dr.xxxxxxx is also very supportive of
CF. But he has done nothing to actually revive research in the field
at xxxx. (I am going to meet Dr. xxxxxx during my next visit to
Bombay during the first week of May.)

Coming to the point I was wondering if you think you can air-dash a
copy of your book to Dr. xxxxxxxxxxx, in the interest of the field.
These guys can afford to buy several copies; I am going to lobby with
them to place orders. But meanwhile will you take the risk of
airfreighting a copy to Dr. xxxxxxxx who lives in the xxxxxxxxxxxxx in S.India if I give you his home address?

He wanted me to send him a quick short note of the status and why I
think the Indian Department of Atomic Energy should re-enter the
field. I cant think of a better summary of it all than your book!

I would appreciate your feedback.

Srini


29 APR 2005
Dear Mr.Steven Krivit,
It was very kind of you and Nadine Winocur to send me a copy of your book "The Rebirth of Cold Fusion".  I have read the book with great interest.  I compliment both of you for writing a very readable book conveying the drama surrounding the subject.
 
I propose to discuss this new insight into cold fusion with some of my colleagues in this part of the world to find out how interest could be stimulated to look at this problem afresh.
[anon, AEC India]


-eof
--=====================_709607515==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 21 22:34:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAM6YFMR025316; Mon, 21 Nov 2005 22:34:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAM6YCnx025289; Mon, 21 Nov 2005 22:34:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 22:34:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20051121222133.02910138 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 22:30:45 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: critics Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64553 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Wesley, The last time I confronted someone who was adamantly opposed to cold fusion was about a year ago. The playing field was the Amazon reader review section. This guy posted something that was so viscous, it was actually entertaining to see how angry the whole cold fusion issue made him. The nature of his post was so nasty that it violated the Amazon guidelines, but I thought it was a great example of the irrationality behind some of the opposition. I was a tough call for me but I did bring it to Amazon's attention and they did pull it down. Funny thing is, the same guy popped up another post a week later. But Amazon ruled, he lost. He didn't try a third time. If you come across people like this, just remember that if someone is visibly, or noticable angry, they are not likely to be thinking clearly, and they are not likely to consider that they are missing some significant facts, and that the facts they do possess are largely out of date. I say, if they're not interested, move on. There are plenty of other people who are. s From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 22 07:05:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAMF4U8b023654; Tue, 22 Nov 2005 07:04:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAMF4M6D023557; Tue, 22 Nov 2005 07:04:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 07:04:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 10:03:27 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7BD8D072207C6-17C-566 mblkn-m19.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d netscape.net References: <43810E48.2040605 iinet.net.au> <6.2.0.14.2.20051120224146.029b1fa0@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20051120224146.029b1fa0 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Peaked Oil (was: challenging papers) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.137 X-Spam-Flag: NO Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id jAMF3xQr023268 Resent-Message-ID: <8-lve.A.2vF.1NzgDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64554 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I'm afraid this news is "just the tip of the iceberg". Sources say that the boasting by the Saudis that they have plenty of oil is a ruse. You see, in the 70s they almost destroyed themselves with the oil embargo. Suddenly people became aware that we were vulnerable. The people began to conserve. This had a major impact on the income of OPEC. Now, they are fighting the truth of a real shortage. Look at how far the Kuwaitis backed off production in Burgan. They have damaged their field trying to push production. The damage is greater in Arabia. There is a good reason why noone is building new refineries. -----Original Message----- From: Steven Krivit To: vortex-l eskimo.com Sent: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 21:53:24 -0800 Subject: Re: challenging papers Now, as for what' s real at the present moment: The Burgan field situation, though seemingly unfit for the NYT, is monumental. http://newenergytimes.com/Newsmedia/2005/KuwaitsBiggestField.htm    Smart people are watching news like this and their ears are perked up.    The battle is no longer with opposition, it is with ignorance. And intelligent people are starting to get curious.    They are starting to consider CF. Watch for this. Help them when the time is right.    Steve      ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 22 07:21:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAMFL8e0030315; Tue, 22 Nov 2005 07:21:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAMFKB8Z029810; Tue, 22 Nov 2005 07:20:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 07:20:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <4eo5r2$tknudb mxip04a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.97,361,1125892800"; d="scan'208"; a="994834859:sNHT20791514" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: OrionWorks Organization: OrionWorks To: CC: Subject: Re: BYU. professor thinks bombs, not planes, toppled WTC Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 9:19:27 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64555 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: Stephen A. Lawrence Hi Stephen, ... > I don't buy conspiracy theories, as a rule, but after > seeing that tape, along with the later commentary by the > White House in which they "fled with no man pursuing", > I really wondered. I remember the tape of Bush's reaction at the class room as well. Any kind of analysis of this sort will -always- be open to personal interoperation. It's always colored by one's own unique set of prejudices. This includes my own personal prejudices as well. My personal interpretation of Bush's reaction most closely resembled that of a deer mesmerized by approaching headlights on a lonely stretch of highway in the middle of the night. The result: One dead deer and a pissed off driver trying to remember what the collision deductible is on his car insurance. ... > Here's an old family story: Long long ago, Roosevelt > (bless his heart -- the only one of the allies who gave > a ! #$ about China) issued an ultimatum to Japan. An > uncle of mine, who was very smart but slightly cracked > and who would have fitted in perfectly on Vortex, called > my father, who was also a close friend of his. He said > to my dad, "Did you see the paper? Did you read what > Roosevelt did?? Japan's got no choice -- they're going > to hit us, within the next two weeks!" He wasn't > clairvoyant, though; he told my dad that the thought > Japan would hit us in the Phillipines, while they > actually hit Hawaii. But his timing was dead-on: they > bombed Pearl Harbor a week later. Now, the point of > this story isn't that my uncle was brilliant, nor that > he had inside information. He was smart, but he didn't > have inside information, and I'm sure Roosevelt had > folks on his staff who were just as smart as my > Uncle Jack. THEREFORE ..... If Jack could figure it > out, so could Roosevelt. In other words, Roosevelt, > who was anything but dumb, must be assumed to have also > known with a high degree of certainty that Japan > was about to hit us. Forget the intercepted radio > broadcast, the intelligence reports that weren't acted > on -- just from first principles and a knowledge of > their own actions in issuing the ultimatum, the White > House _must_ have known the attack was coming, and must > have known, to within a few days, when it would > happen. But Roosevent didn't do anything to prepare, > and the fleet was a flock of sitting ducks as a > result ... the President knew the attack was coming, but > he ignored it. > (Speculating as to why he did that, is far beyond the > scope of this post.) You can not make such statements and then claim that speculating as to why [Roosevelt] did what he did "...is beyond the scope of this post." I can't let this sit here. My dad served as an officer in WWII on a sub chaser in the Pacific "theatre". Fortunately for me he managed to miss most of the deadliest conflicts. He told me he occasionally heard late night radio chatter concerning Kamikaze boats that had been rigged with torpedoes attempting to ram some of their ships. Sometimes they were successful in detonating, sometimes not. While my dad is no longer with me I think he would likely say that had Roosevelt known without a doubt that there would be an eminent Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor within a certain time period he would have done everything within his power to move the fleet and personnel to safer locations - out to sea, other bases, wherever. Any implication (direct or indirect) that he deliberately let his fleet and crew languish in the harbor - basically as sitting ducks is absolutely preposterous. OTOH, I also understand Roosevelt was very much interested trying to come up with a legitimate excuse to get us in involved in the "other" war over in Europe despite an extremely reluctant congress that wanted to stay neutral. Roosevelt knew sooner or later we would have to deal with the global situation both over in Europe as well as in the Pacific. Roosevelt realized that despite congresses' reluctance to act he knew our nation couldn't just ride it out and hope we could stay neutral forever. > Maybe the comparisons with Pearl Harbor are more apt > than Bush would have us realize. Maybe so. Maybe so... Never the less I suspect I would have felt a lot more confident had Roosevelt been on watch when 9/11 occurred. At least he knew how to communicate. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 22 07:25:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAMFOerB031846; Tue, 22 Nov 2005 07:24:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAMFObtR031817; Tue, 22 Nov 2005 07:24:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 07:24:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <4e53tr$1dfj3i1 mxip05a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.97,361,1125892800"; d="scan'208"; a="1526304321:sNHT14036410" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: OrionWorks Organization: OrionWorks To: CC: Subject: Re: OT - Company Policy!!! Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 9:24:13 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64556 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: John.Rudiger Very good read, btw! > And that, my friends, is how company policy begins. > You must have a Masters in Business Administration, don't you.;-) Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 22 10:52:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAMIq4bN028450; Tue, 22 Nov 2005 10:52:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAMIpwQc028374; Tue, 22 Nov 2005 10:51:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 10:51:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: BYU. professor thinks bombs, not planes, toppled WTC Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 12:51:33 -0600 Message-ID: <000001c5ef95$c2cf53a0$5c5e10ac eDentsply.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <4eo5r2$tknudb mxip04a.cluster1.charter.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id jAMIpcfG028236 Resent-Message-ID: <2j2CD.A.R7G.Nj2gDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64557 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Pearl Harbor = WMD = W2K = Bird Flu Stampeding the herd is sometimes the only way to move them in a direction they don't want to go. Rarely is the threat real and 95% will never know why they are going that way. All leaders are guilty of it. Roosevelt knew, that's why one battle group wasn't there... If no ships were lost, we would have not entered the pacific theater. Public apathy would have prevented action. -j -----Original Message----- From: OrionWorks [mailto:orionworks charter.net] Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2005 9:19 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: orionworks charter.net Subject: Re: BYU. professor thinks bombs, not planes, toppled WTC From: Stephen A. Lawrence Hi Stephen, ... > I don't buy conspiracy theories, as a rule, but after > seeing that tape, along with the later commentary by the White House > in which they "fled with no man pursuing", I really wondered. I remember the tape of Bush's reaction at the class room as well. Any kind of analysis of this sort will -always- be open to personal interoperation. It's always colored by one's own unique set of prejudices. This includes my own personal prejudices as well. My personal interpretation of Bush's reaction most closely resembled that of a deer mesmerized by approaching headlights on a lonely stretch of highway in the middle of the night. The result: One dead deer and a pissed off driver trying to remember what the collision deductible is on his car insurance. ... > Here's an old family story: Long long ago, Roosevelt > (bless his heart -- the only one of the allies who gave > a ! #$ about China) issued an ultimatum to Japan. An > uncle of mine, who was very smart but slightly cracked > and who would have fitted in perfectly on Vortex, called > my father, who was also a close friend of his. He said > to my dad, "Did you see the paper? Did you read what > Roosevelt did?? Japan's got no choice -- they're going > to hit us, within the next two weeks!" He wasn't > clairvoyant, though; he told my dad that the thought > Japan would hit us in the Phillipines, while they > actually hit Hawaii. But his timing was dead-on: they > bombed Pearl Harbor a week later. Now, the point of > this story isn't that my uncle was brilliant, nor that > he had inside information. He was smart, but he didn't > have inside information, and I'm sure Roosevelt had > folks on his staff who were just as smart as my > Uncle Jack. THEREFORE ..... If Jack could figure it > out, so could Roosevelt. In other words, Roosevelt, > who was anything but dumb, must be assumed to have also > known with a high degree of certainty that Japan > was about to hit us. Forget the intercepted radio > broadcast, the intelligence reports that weren't acted > on -- just from first principles and a knowledge of > their own actions in issuing the ultimatum, the White > House _must_ have known the attack was coming, and must > have known, to within a few days, when it would > happen. But Roosevent didn't do anything to prepare, > and the fleet was a flock of sitting ducks as a > result ... the President knew the attack was coming, but > he ignored it. > (Speculating as to why he did that, is far beyond the > scope of this post.) You can not make such statements and then claim that speculating as to why [Roosevelt] did what he did "...is beyond the scope of this post." I can't let this sit here. My dad served as an officer in WWII on a sub chaser in the Pacific "theatre". Fortunately for me he managed to miss most of the deadliest conflicts. He told me he occasionally heard late night radio chatter concerning Kamikaze boats that had been rigged with torpedoes attempting to ram some of their ships. Sometimes they were successful in detonating, sometimes not. While my dad is no longer with me I think he would likely say that had Roosevelt known without a doubt that there would be an eminent Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor within a certain time period he would have done everything within his power to move the fleet and personnel to safer locations - out to sea, other bases, wherever. Any implication (direct or indirect) that he deliberately let his fleet and crew languish in the harbor - basically as sitting ducks is absolutely preposterous. OTOH, I also understand Roosevelt was very much interested trying to come up with a legitimate excuse to get us in involved in the "other" war over in Europe despite an extremely reluctant congress that wanted to stay neutral. Roosevelt knew sooner or later we would have to deal with the global situation both over in Europe as well as in the Pacific. Roosevelt realized that despite congresses' reluctance to act he knew our nation couldn't just ride it out and hope we could stay neutral forever. > Maybe the comparisons with Pearl Harbor are more apt > than Bush would have us realize. Maybe so. Maybe so... Never the less I suspect I would have felt a lot more confident had Roosevelt been on watch when 9/11 occurred. At least he knew how to communicate. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 22 11:59:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAMJwoHm017411; Tue, 22 Nov 2005 11:59:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAMJwhFl017284; Tue, 22 Nov 2005 11:58:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 11:58:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051122145401.04683e20 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 14:57:33 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Peaked Oil (was: challenging papers) In-Reply-To: <8C7BD8D072207C6-17C-566 mblkn-m19.sysops.aol.com> References: <43810E48.2040605 iinet.net.au> <6.2.0.14.2.20051120224146.029b1fa0 mail.newenergytimes.com> <8C7BD8D072207C6-17C-566 mblkn-m19.sysops.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64558 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: hohlrauml6d netscape.net wrote: >There is a good reason why noone is building new refineries. This is exactly right. See K. Deffey's new book, "Beyond Oil." No new refineries, supertankers or pipelines are on order because the oil companies know they will have no use for them. One of the reasons OPEC members overstated their reserves is because their quota was based on their reserves, not their actual production at the moment. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 22 12:07:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAMK6h4b023558; Tue, 22 Nov 2005 12:06:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAMK6g9M023531; Tue, 22 Nov 2005 12:06:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 12:06:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43837A3A.1020101 pobox.com> Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 15:06:18 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.10) Gecko/20050719 Fedora/1.7.10-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BYU. professor thinks bombs, not planes, toppled WTC References: <4eo5r2$tknudb mxip04a.cluster1.charter.net> In-Reply-To: <4eo5r2$tknudb mxip04a.cluster1.charter.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64559 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: OrionWorks wrote: >>Here's an old family story: Long long ago, Roosevelt >>(bless his heart -- the only one of the allies who gave >>a ! #$ about China) issued an ultimatum to Japan. An >>uncle of mine, who was very smart but slightly cracked >>and who would have fitted in perfectly on Vortex, called >>my father, who was also a close friend of his. He said >>to my dad, "Did you see the paper? Did you read what >>Roosevelt did?? Japan's got no choice -- they're going >>to hit us, within the next two weeks!" He wasn't >>clairvoyant, though; he told my dad that the thought >>Japan would hit us in the Phillipines, while they >>actually hit Hawaii. But his timing was dead-on: they >>bombed Pearl Harbor a week later. Now, the point of >>this story isn't that my uncle was brilliant, nor that >>he had inside information. He was smart, but he didn't >>have inside information, and I'm sure Roosevelt had >>folks on his staff who were just as smart as my >>Uncle Jack. THEREFORE ..... If Jack could figure it >>out, so could Roosevelt. In other words, Roosevelt, >>who was anything but dumb, must be assumed to have also >>known with a high degree of certainty that Japan >>was about to hit us. Forget the intercepted radio >>broadcast, the intelligence reports that weren't acted >>on -- just from first principles and a knowledge of >>their own actions in issuing the ultimatum, the White >>House _must_ have known the attack was coming, and must >>have known, to within a few days, when it would >>happen. But Roosevent didn't do anything to prepare, >>and the fleet was a flock of sitting ducks as a >>result ... the President knew the attack was coming, but >>he ignored it. >>(Speculating as to why he did that, is far beyond the >>scope of this post.) >> >> > >You can not make such statements and then claim that speculating as to why [Roosevelt] did what he did "...is beyond the scope of this post." > Sure I can, because my knowledge of the facts, such as they are, ends at that point. The tale of my Uncle Jack _apparently_ knowing better than the President what the Japanese were going to do is pure fact. Conclusions drawn from such an anecdote are, of course, guesswork, but none the less the story is something I know. On the other hand, since I wasn't even born yet and I certainly wasn't following current events, I don't know enough about what was going on to have more than the vaguest notion as to _why_ the President might have done such a thing. Certainly, the notion that a "big disaster" was needed to get us into the war seems silly on the face of it -- if the fleet had been at sea when the Japanese attacked it would have gotten us into the war just the same. Bombing a major port is an act of war whether or not there's a fleet in the harbor. And, for that matter, if the Japanese government had simply folded up in the face of the ultimatum, it would have accomplished Roosevelt's most likely objective, which was to get Japan out of China and keep them away from the oil fields they were supposedly hoping to capture. One rather bizarre bit of speculation I've read is that Roosevelt had already decided that the Pacific fleet was obsolete, and that the Navy administration was stuck in the mud, and that faced with an inevitable war the only way to assure our ultimate victory was to sink the fleet and start over from scratch. No half-measures would do because the old guard in the Navy was married to WWI technology and would resist attempts at replacing it wholesale. But I don't know nearly enough about the technology of the time, let alone the politics, to assess this scenario, beyond saying it seems too contorted and diabolical to believe it could have been part of the plan of any reasonably sane person. > I can't let this sit here. > >My dad served as an officer in WWII on a sub chaser in the Pacific "theatre". Fortunately for me he managed to miss most of the deadliest conflicts. He told me he occasionally heard late night radio chatter concerning Kamikaze boats that had been rigged with torpedoes attempting to ram some of their ships. Sometimes they were successful in detonating, sometimes not. > >While my dad is no longer with me I think he would likely say that had Roosevelt known without a doubt that there would be an eminent Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor within a certain time period he would have done everything within his power to move the fleet and personnel to safer locations - out to sea, other bases, wherever. > Well, if Roosevelt didn't know, why didn't he? Other people with poorer access to current military intelligence figured it out; why didn't the White House? Actually a quick Google of "burma oil japan roosevelt" turns up a number of capsule histories of the time which make it clear that they _DID_ know that an attack was iminent, but that, for whatever reason, the possibility that Hawaii might be the target was not taken seriously enough. Perhaps it was just overconfidence in the results of trying to outguess the enemy. My dad's take on the mess was that my Uncle Jack was brilliant and Roosevelt was a fat-head, but I've always been inclined to think it was not quite that simple. I've read claims elsewhere that out of 7 fleet admirals at the start of the war, all but 1 were replaced within the first ... um ... 6 months, I think. This was offered as an illustration of how the military must change from a role-oriented to a task-oriented organization when a nation goes from peace to war, which may require the replacement of top people who are inculcated with the peace-time military culture, but it might equally well have been given as evidence for the claim that most of the top brass in the Navy was incompetent or out of date at the start of the war. And that could explain any number of bad decisions, of course. > Any implication (direct or indirect) that he deliberately let his fleet and crew languish in the harbor - basically as sitting ducks is absolutely preposterous. > Is it? Did your father know FDR? Was FDR incapable of being so cold-blooded? What happened at Yalta, anyway? Didn't FDR have something to do with handing off eastern Europe to Russia? Maybe he could be a little cold-blooded on occasion, eh? >OTOH, I also understand Roosevelt was very much interested trying to come up with a legitimate excuse to get us in involved in the "other" war over in Europe despite an extremely reluctant congress that wanted to stay neutral. Roosevelt knew sooner or later we would have to deal with the global situation both over in Europe as well as in the Pacific. Roosevelt realized that despite congresses' reluctance to act he knew our nation couldn't just ride it out and hope we could stay neutral forever. > > And he also realized that despite the fact that no nation in Europe could or would show any interest, _somebody_ had to do something about Japan's actions in China or there was going to be some very bad stuff coming down for everybody in the future. >>Maybe the comparisons with Pearl Harbor are more apt >>than Bush would have us realize. >> >> > > >Maybe so. Maybe so... Never the less I suspect I would have felt a lot more confident had Roosevelt been on watch when 9/11 occurred. At least he knew how to communicate. > > Yeah, and he had a brain in his head, too, and had never suffered from spending too much time with a glass in his hand. And he knew how to negotiate, and he knew the value of maintaining foreign contacts; in short he knew that Americans aren't the only people on Earth. Maybe there would have been no 9/11 if Roosevelt had been Pres. >Regards >Steven Vincent Johnson >www.OrionWorks.com > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 22 12:36:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAMKaA5P002872; Tue, 22 Nov 2005 12:36:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAMKa8Jl002842; Tue, 22 Nov 2005 12:36:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 12:36:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Subject: RE: Peaked Oil (was: challenging papers) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 14:35:45 -0600 Message-ID: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50A7D4F67 CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Peaked Oil (was: challenging papers) thread-index: AcXvn5hCu0h+fbwyTAuu34S8IxVUAAAAURwg From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Nov 2005 20:35:46.0928 (UTC) FILETIME=[51669700:01C5EFA4] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id jAMKZo6w002701 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64560 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: It's hard for me to ignore these assumptions. Refineries don't get built because of NIMBYism and , to some extent, regulatory expense. Arianna Huffington even pointed out that some oil companies have pushed to get each others refineries shut down by regulators, to keep the price of refined products high. There's also a high degree of NIMBYism and regulatory obstruction in pipelines and supertankers as well. I HAVE invested in refinery and tanker stocks - and I can affirm that they can be extremely volatile, with long periods in which valuations sit at the bottom of the market. Pipelines and tankers still would be needed if synthetic/alternative fuels are developed - and there's lots of possibility in that field. The Wall Street Journal has pointed out more than once that disinvestment in the oil industry and alternative energy is because of the Saudis, dominately. No business wants to invest in anything that could be wiped out over night by sheiks who could simply turn a spigot and pump oil for the cost of running the machinery. You have to be very motivated or crazy to invest in such an atmosphere. This fact is also why oil has remained relatively cheap in real dollars until recently - the Saudis aren't complete fools and have maintained prices that inhibit alternative development. With China and India in the mix, we now may be able to get beyond the Saudi economic veto that has afflicted alternatives. There also may be a long gap in oil well development, after so many years of neglect, based on volatile prices that inhibited the process. In upstate NY, Fortuna is on a well drilling binge BECAUSE of the price of natural gas. Since such is the case in an area as unlikely as upstate NY, I can safely assume that the rest of the world will see a similar explosion of development. -----Original Message----- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:JedRothwell mindspring.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2005 2:58 PM To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Re: Peaked Oil (was: challenging papers) hohlrauml6d netscape.net wrote: >There is a good reason why noone is building new refineries. This is exactly right. See K. Deffey's new book, "Beyond Oil." No new refineries, supertankers or pipelines are on order because the oil companies know they will have no use for them. One of the reasons OPEC members overstated their reserves is because their quota was based on their reserves, not their actual production at the moment. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 22 12:38:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAMKcCNL003679; Tue, 22 Nov 2005 12:38:27 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAMKc8mr003640; Tue, 22 Nov 2005 12:38:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 12:38:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051122151900.04b778c0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 15:37:21 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: OFF TOPIC Pearl Harbor etc. In-Reply-To: <000001c5ef95$c2cf53a0$5c5e10ac eDentsply.com> References: <4eo5r2$tknudb mxip04a.cluster1.charter.net> <000001c5ef95$c2cf53a0$5c5e10ac eDentsply.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64561 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Steck wrote: > > Here's an old family story: Long long ago, Roosevelt > > (bless his heart -- the only one of the allies who gave > > a ! #$ about China) issued an ultimatum to Japan. An > > uncle of mine, who was very smart but slightly cracked > > and who would have fitted in perfectly on Vortex, called > > my father, who was also a close friend of his. He said > > to my dad, "Did you see the paper? Did you read what > > Roosevelt did?? Japan's got no choice -- they're going > > to hit us, within the next two weeks!" He wasn't > > clairvoyant, though; he told my dad that the thought > > Japan would hit us in the Phillipines, while they > > actually hit Hawaii. But his timing was dead-on: they > > bombed Pearl Harbor a week later. I learned Japanese language and history from World War II vets on both sides. (I mean Japanese vets as well as Americans). My professors and the people I knew were in the intelligence business, translating from Japanese into English. So I am quite familiar with the history of these events. Many absurd myths have grown up but the facts are quite clear: 1. OF COURSE Roosevelt knew an attack was coming. He told his Cabinet that, and he ordered the military to be prepared. Anyone reading the newspapers in the US or Japan in November 1941 knew that an attack was inevitable. 2. The commanding officers in Hawaii and the Philippines did prepare for an attack, but they did a lousy job. The commanders in Hawaii were vilified & sacked, while the guy in charge in the Philippines (what WAS his name?) went on to become the most celebrated commander of the Pacific war and the only American-born Shogun/demigod in Japanese history. Life isn't fair. 3. Nobody in the administration or the US military had the slightest idea the target was Pearl Harbor. If they had suspected an attack was coming, they would have sortied the fleet and met the Japanese on the high seas. That would have been a disaster. They would have lost 6,000 men or more, and every ship that sank would have been lost for good. (Most of the ships that sank in the harbor were salvaged.) As one admiral put it, it was God's mercy that they were surprised. The movie "Tora, Tora, Tora" is a remarkably accurate portrayal of the attack and the events leading up to it. Much of the dialog in the movie is taken verbatim from eyewitness written accounts, testimony at the congressional investigations and other original sources. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 22 13:11:01 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAMLAMH7017803; Tue, 22 Nov 2005 13:10:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAMLABbZ017699; Tue, 22 Nov 2005 13:10:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 13:10:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <4e53tr$1dga2dj mxip05a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.97,362,1125892800"; d="scan'208"; a="1527056819:sNHT16654928" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: OrionWorks Organization: OrionWorks To: CC: Subject: Re: BYU. professor thinks bombs, not planes, toppled WTC Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 15:08:43 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64562 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: Stephen A. Lawrence A lot of interesting stuff to ponder here, especially the scenario about how best to modernize an antiquated navy. ... >> Maybe so. Maybe so... Never the less I suspect I >> would have felt a lot more confident had Roosevelt >> been on watch when 9/11 occurred. At least he knew >> how to communicate. > > > Yeah, and he had a brain in his head, too, and had never > suffered from spending too much time with a glass in his > hand. > > And he knew how to negotiate, and he knew the value of > maintaining foreign contacts; in short he knew that > Americans aren't the only people on Earth. Maybe > there would have been no 9/11 if Roosevelt had been Pres. Possibly. Never in a million billion gazillion years could I ever conceive of Roosevelt uttering before congress at what he would hope would be noted in the history books as his finest hour: "Either you're with us or you're with the Japs." Bush, on the other hand... Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 22 13:45:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAMLiUbb001917; Tue, 22 Nov 2005 13:44:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAMLiPad001856; Tue, 22 Nov 2005 13:44:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 13:44:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=ix.netcom.com; b=NTJD4TR4fnTfpKKkgHmWPsDHJRPExGaenL+ENBae43B9mrqDUPP/83CpmIo4j2He; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220051122213431770 ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.1.47.0 (Windows) From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: OFF TOPIC Pearl Harbor etc. Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 13:43:17 -00 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d8f38fc2603f0170d15a48a8a7bc92bbe6666fa475841a1c7a350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 216.175.104.21 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64563 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: November 22, 2005 Vortex, Interesting OT. I will not go into the long historical events between Japan, the U.S., and international interacting scenes of empires that lead up to WWII. It is too involved to write about here. But the history of the period from the time Japan opened up and to the current day is interesting because my family moved back and forth between the two nations and became deeply affected by the war, as were countless millions on earth. And I did have some trauma about it. In 2000 and 2001 a Touchstone publication by Robert B. Stinnet came out which documents Roosevelt leading events in "diplomacy" and strategies which lead to entry into the European war through the "back door" shenanigans with Japan. Stinnet sees Roosevelt acting in a patriotic manner. Everybody will have their own take on Roosevelt and on the war. -ak- > [Original Message] > From: Jed Rothwell > To: > Date: 11/22/2005 8:38:27 PM > Subject: OFF TOPIC Pearl Harbor etc. > > John Steck wrote: > > > > Here's an old family story: Long long ago, Roosevelt > > > (bless his heart -- the only one of the allies who gave > > > a ! #$ about China) issued an ultimatum to Japan. An > > > uncle of mine, who was very smart but slightly cracked > > > and who would have fitted in perfectly on Vortex, called > > > my father, who was also a close friend of his. He said > > > to my dad, "Did you see the paper? Did you read what > > > Roosevelt did?? Japan's got no choice -- they're going > > > to hit us, within the next two weeks!" He wasn't > > > clairvoyant, though; he told my dad that the thought > > > Japan would hit us in the Phillipines, while they > > > actually hit Hawaii. But his timing was dead-on: they > > > bombed Pearl Harbor a week later. > > I learned Japanese language and history from World War II vets on both > sides. (I mean Japanese vets as well as Americans). My professors and the > people I knew were in the intelligence business, translating from Japanese > into English. So I am quite familiar with the history of these events. Many > absurd myths have grown up but the facts are quite clear: > > 1. OF COURSE Roosevelt knew an attack was coming. He told his Cabinet that, > and he ordered the military to be prepared. Anyone reading the newspapers > in the US or Japan in November 1941 knew that an attack was inevitable. > > 2. The commanding officers in Hawaii and the Philippines did prepare for an > attack, but they did a lousy job. The commanders in Hawaii were vilified & > sacked, while the guy in charge in the Philippines (what WAS his name?) > went on to become the most celebrated commander of the Pacific war and the > only American-born Shogun/demigod in Japanese history. Life isn't fair. > > 3. Nobody in the administration or the US military had the slightest idea > the target was Pearl Harbor. If they had suspected an attack was coming, > they would have sortied the fleet and met the Japanese on the high seas. > That would have been a disaster. They would have lost 6,000 men or more, > and every ship that sank would have been lost for good. (Most of the ships > that sank in the harbor were salvaged.) As one admiral put it, it was God's > mercy that they were surprised. > > The movie "Tora, Tora, Tora" is a remarkably accurate portrayal of the > attack and the events leading up to it. Much of the dialog in the movie is > taken verbatim from eyewitness written accounts, testimony at the > congressional investigations and other original sources. > > - Jed > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 22 14:52:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAMMq7xp008456; Tue, 22 Nov 2005 14:52:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAMMq5eC008426; Tue, 22 Nov 2005 14:52:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 14:52:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051122173438.04a27a00 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 17:51:22 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: OFF TOPIC History's might-have-been's - Pacific war almost averted In-Reply-To: <43837A3A.1020101 pobox.com> References: <4eo5r2$tknudb mxip04a.cluster1.charter.net> <43837A3A.1020101 pobox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64564 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >And he knew how to negotiate, and he knew the value of maintaining foreign >contacts; in short he knew that Americans aren't the only people on >Earth. Maybe there would have been no 9/11 if Roosevelt had been Pres. He was good at negotiation. So good, I think he almost averted war with Japan, although he himself did not realize it at the time. One of the reasons Japan attacked in 1941 was because they thought Russia would soon lose the war and be taken over by Germany. Japan feared the Soviet Union more than they feared the US, but they thought it would soon be defunct. There were sane people in Japan who understood that war with the US would be a disaster. Especially Yamamoto, the head of the Navy, They were trying to stop the confrontation. They almost succeeded in delaying the attack on Pearl Harbor. If they had delayed, the attack could not have gone forward until March or April 1942, and by that time the Japanese government would have realized that Russia was not going to lose to Germany, and the European balance of power would not change. They also might have realized that some of their own hard-line diplomats were lying about the US position. In secret memos within the Japanese government, the hard-liners misrepresented the US negotiating position. They claimed the US was trying to push them out of all their Asian colonies, including China, Manchuria, Taiwan and Korea. That was not true. The US negotiators only wanted a settlement in China; they never made any demands about the other colonies. By March 1942, cooler heads might have prevailed, an accurate translation of the US negotiating position might have reached the prime minister, and war might have been averted. That would have been good . . . except that in that scenario the US would never have gone to war in Europe; England alone would never have invaded the continent; and the Nazis would still be running things in Western Europe. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 22 15:08:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAMN7oeS016940; Tue, 22 Nov 2005 15:08:05 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAMN7dVS016828; Tue, 22 Nov 2005 15:07:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 15:07:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20051122180258.0469c1e0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 18:06:58 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: New old papers from Rolison et al., Guruswamy et al. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id jAMN7BkQ016622 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64565 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: See: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RolisonDRanomaliesi.pdf http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/GuruswamySmetallurgi.pdf Here are some remarkable statements from the latter: "During the first week of May, 1989, frequent explosive popping of the cells (Figure 2a) were observed, some with minimal damage and some with the destruction of the assembly. The temperature excursions were associated with some of these events which were initially dismissed as being due to deuterium and oxygen recombination. Again in the third week of May, a large temperature excursion of about 12°C was observed, the cell temperature rise lasting about 90 minutes (Figure 2a). . . . During the burst shown in Figure 2b, the cell was being operated in a constant voltage mode and the voltage and current readings were manually recorded. Explosive popping of the cell interrupted the large heat burst and dislodged the electrodes. The cell was put back together immediately and the cell temperature remained at a level well above the normal values corresponding to the gross power input to the cell (about 9.6 Watts). Thermal calibration curves showed that excess heat generated during these two events were about 240,000 Joules during the 91 minute burst and around 1 MJ during the 40 minute burst followed by a 30 hour excess heat generation at a lower level. During the bursts the power outputs were as high as 6-7 times the input power which was less than 10 Watts. . . ." - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 22 15:28:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAMNRh5m027321; Tue, 22 Nov 2005 15:27:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAMNRerR027295; Tue, 22 Nov 2005 15:27:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 15:27:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <005f01c5efbc$457060d0$1714fea9 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <4eo5r2$tknudb mxip04a.cluster1.charter.net> <43837A3A.1020101@pobox.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20051122173438.04a27a00@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC History's might-have-been's - Pacific war almost averted Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 15:27:14 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_005C_01C5EF79.36D5F500" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64566 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_005C_01C5EF79.36D5F500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Speaking of "History's might-have-been's" during this period - how many = realize how "fortunate: (i.e. downright lucky) we were at Midway?=20 This "failed-trap", and our good-fortune, plus a rare Yamamoto slip-up - = essentially lost the war for Japan during this one battle. We might have = succeeded anyway, at far greater cost, but for this battle, as they = definitely had the upper hand in maritime strength prior. Jones BTW my stepfather was on the ill-fated Yorktown (both the first and = second versions), and surviving that sinking (by torpedo) required its = own bit of luck.=20 ------=_NextPart_000_005C_01C5EF79.36D5F500 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Speaking of "History's might-have-been's" during this period - = how many=20 realize how "fortunate: (i.e. downright lucky) we were at Midway? =

This "failed-trap", and our = good-fortune, plus a=20 rare Yamamoto slip-up - essentially lost the war for Japan during = this one=20 battle. We might have succeeded anyway, at far greater cost, = but for this=20 battle, as they definitely had the upper hand in maritime strength=20 prior.

Jones

BTW my stepfather was on the = ill-fated=20 Yorktown (both the first and second versions), and surviving that = sinking (by=20 torpedo) required its own bit of luck.


------=_NextPart_000_005C_01C5EF79.36D5F500-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 22 15:43:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAMNgSLd000809; Tue, 22 Nov 2005 15:42:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAMNgPKu000753; Tue, 22 Nov 2005 15:42:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 15:42:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 18:42:05 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Scientists in a spin over curling clues To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <23566b235bc1.235bc123566b ncf.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 Patch 2 (built Jul 14 2004) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-language: en Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-Accept-Language: en Priority: normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64567 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I happen to believe the curling phenomena will prove to be a seminal problem. I think it is as important to the future of physics as the motion of a canon ball was to classical mechanics in the 1600's. Harry > The Sunday Times - Scotland > > http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2090-1325839,00.html > > The Sunday Times October 24, 2004 > > Scientists in a spin over curling clues > by Camillo Fracassini > > > IT IS a conundrum that has perplexed scientists for almost a > century . why do curling stones appear to defy the laws of physics > by spinning to the right instead of the left? Now researchers from > the two countries most associated with the winter sport have > locked brushes in a bid to come up with the definitive answer. > Scotland and Canada have produced rival explanations for the > unique motion of the granite rocks as they glide over ice. > > The problem is why curling stones, which rotate clockwise, curl to > the right, unlike other objects, such as a glass spinning on a > table, which veer in the opposite direction. > > Mark Shegelski, professor of theoretical physics at the University > of Northern British Columbia, has produced a complicated > mathematical formula to prove his theory that the front edge of > the > curling stone is lubricated by a microscopic slurry of water and > ice caused by friction. The liquid layer means there is less friction > at the front of the rock than at the back, making it curl in the > direction in which it is spinning. > > However, a rival theory put forward by Dr Brett Marmo, a > glaciologist at Edinburgh University, claims that the secret lies > not in the front or back of a curling stone, but its sides. > > Marmo argues that the lubricating effect of the water under the > stone increases as its velocity increases. The velocity of the > right-hand side of a curling stone spinning clockwise is higher than its > left causing it to curve right, the path of least resistance. > > Shegelski is adamant that his "wet friction" theory, based on 10 > years of research, is correct, but Marmo describes his formula > as "really ugly" and his reasoning "over-complicated". > > In his paper, published in the Canadian Journal of Physics, > Shegelski also claims to have killed off another rival Scottish > theory, published several years ago, which suggested that the > motion of curling stones was affected by ice granules lodged in the > granite. > > "Our work makes a very convincing case that melting is > inextricably involved," said Shegelski. "To explain our experimental > results without invoking the existence of a thin-liquid film, well, I > would be shocked if somebody came up with a successful theory that > involved no melting." > > While Marmo accepts that melted ice is involved, he is dismissive > of the Canadian paper, The Motion of Curling Rocks: Experimental > Investigation and Semi-phenomenological Description. "I don't > believe this explanation," said Marmo, who received funding from > the Scottish Institute of Sport to carry out his research. > > "Have you tried to read it? Speaking as someone in the game, I > found it incredibly technical. I'm a glaciologist and have spent my life > looking at ice, snow and friction. Whereas these guys are pure > physicists. > > "My theory is quite simple compared to theirs, which doesn't > explain why there is much more water at the front than the back ? the > mechanism isn't explained properly." > > Marmo added that his theory which was given the best paper award > at the 5th Conference of the Engineering of Sport in California > last month also explains why curlers are able to make stones curve > less and slide further by sweeping the ice, creating more water and > reducing friction. > > Marmo and his boss, Dr Jane Blackford, of the university's centre > for materials science and engineering, have been working closely > with the Great Britain curling team. > > Blackford helped the team of women curlers led by Rhona Martin win > gold at the 2002 Winter Olympics by developing a device to help > perfect their sweeping technique. > > Martin said the curve of curling stones was crucial, but said she > was not convinced by the Canadian explanation. > > "If stones run straight, it makes a game of curling very boring > because there can't be the tactical play. We want stones that > swing," she said. > > "There are lots of different factors involved, such as the quality > of the stone and the ice at the rink. The players aren't aware of > all the science behind it. I don't think I'll be studying these > equations." > > David Smith, Scotland's leading curling historian, said academic > debate over the motion of curling stones dated back to at least > 1920, when one of the first studies was published in the > scientific journal Nature. > >end From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 22 17:02:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAN128uw030968; Tue, 22 Nov 2005 17:02:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAN126ir030952; Tue, 22 Nov 2005 17:02:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 17:02:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <4enjkv$u6njd3 mxip14a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.97,363,1125892800"; d="scan'208"; a="1013697955:sNHT454410176" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: OrionWorks Organization: OrionWorks To: CC: Subject: OT (Very!) Recorded Car Wreck and little old ladies Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 19:01:08 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <1mYjLD.A.hjH.O-7gDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64568 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Vorts, This post has absolutely nothing to do with alternative energy. Never the less, I just had to share this. Made my day! ****************************************************** ****************************************************** Car Wreck Phone Call in Texas...was played on the air! Turn your speakers up.....and get ready...... A phone call from a man in Texas who witnessed a car accident that involved elderly women. It was so popular when they played it on CHUM FM that they had to put it on their website. Click Below: http://www.chumfm.com/MorningShow/bits/march24.swf Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 22 18:43:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAN2hDMB008125; Tue, 22 Nov 2005 18:43:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAN2hBgW008112; Tue, 22 Nov 2005 18:43:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 18:43:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Scientists in a spin over curling clues Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 13:42:49 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <5il7o15uepkrast1s9ab628sjig9it3bcp 4ax.com> References: <23566b235bc1.235bc123566b ncf.ca> In-Reply-To: <23566b235bc1.235bc123566b ncf.ca> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.59.28] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Wed, 23 Nov 2005 02:42:48 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id jAN2grcR007726 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64569 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to Harry Veeder's message of Tue, 22 Nov 2005 18:42:05 -0500: Hi, [snip] >> Marmo argues that the lubricating effect of the water under the >> stone increases as its velocity increases. The velocity of the >> right-hand side of a curling stone spinning clockwise is higher than >its >> left No it isn't. The right hand side of a clockwise spinning stone is coming toward the person casting it, and hence is going slower than the left hand side which is going away. >>causing it to curve right, the path of least resistance. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 22 18:44:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAN2i5GM008513; Tue, 22 Nov 2005 18:44:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAN2i4u1008493; Tue, 22 Nov 2005 18:44:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 18:44:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=ix.netcom.com; b=dgbapMNPV77SLZ+RE8Aki9bA/k6KBlSj6D+YK9lNokkoFmYqtAHglk86iNpUKbcv; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200511222184310 ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.1.47.0 (Windows) From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC History's might-have-been's - Pacific war almost averted Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 18:43:01 -00 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d841112cd57eb122d53f7c7f57f4c85b82bd9aa8b00e01cd47350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 216.175.84.181 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64570 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Nov. 22, 2005 Vortex, Military documents obtained through "Freedom of Information Act" invoked by Stinnet shows that United States had broken both diplomatic and military codes used by Japan by 1939-1940. Roosevelt knew every move Japan was making. He knew that their navy was on the way. There was no radio silence as asserted. "God Bless" the Army and Navy code breakers. Pearl Harbor was not a surprise, the Midway tactic was known, and Yamamoto was later killed by knowing his inspection route. The sad thing on Japan's side was that they never caught on that their codes were broken. It is also safe to assume that United States knew about Japan scrambling to come to surrender negotiations through then neutral Russia much prior to dropping of the Atomic Bomb. Those commanders caught by surprise at Pearl were kept out of the crucial information loop. MacAurthur was not one of those. He just didn't get enough supplies in time. You see, Europe was the priority. By the way, Stinnet's book is "Day of Deceit, The Truth About FDR and Pearl Harbor". -ak- ----- Original Message ----- From: Jones Beene To: vortex-l eskimo.com Sent: 11/22/2005 11:27:58 PM Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC History's might-have-been's - Pacific war almost averted Speaking of "History's might-have-been's" during this period - how many realize how "fortunate: (i.e. downright lucky) we were at Midway? This "failed-trap", and our good-fortune, plus a rare Yamamoto slip-up - essentially lost the war for Japan during this one battle. We might have succeeded anyway, at far greater cost, but for this battle, as they definitely had the upper hand in maritime strength prior. Jones BTW my stepfather was on the ill-fated Yorktown (both the first and second versions), and surviving that sinking (by torpedo) required its own bit of luck. ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Nov. 22, 2005
 
Vortex,
 
Military documents obtained through "Freedom of Information Act" invoked by Stinnet shows that  United States had broken both diplomatic and military codes used by Japan by 1939-1940.
Roosevelt knew every move Japan was making. He knew that their navy was on the way. There was no radio silence as asserted. "God Bless" the Army and Navy code breakers.
Pearl Harbor was not a surprise, the Midway tactic was known, and Yamamoto was later killed by knowing his inspection route. 
The sad thing on Japan's side was that they never caught on that their codes were broken. It is also safe to assume that United States knew about Japan scrambling to come to surrender negotiations through then neutral Russia much prior to dropping of the Atomic Bomb.  
Those commanders caught by surprise at Pearl were kept out of the crucial information loop. MacAurthur was not one of those. He just didn't get enough supplies in time. You see, Europe was the priority.
By the way, Stinnet's book is "Day of Deceit, The Truth About FDR and Pearl Harbor".
 
-ak-  
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 11/22/2005 11:27:58 PM
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC History's might-have-been's - Pacific war almost averted

Speaking of "History's might-have-been's" during this period - how many realize how "fortunate: (i.e. downright lucky) we were at Midway?

This "failed-trap", and our good-fortune, plus a rare Yamamoto slip-up - essentially lost the war for Japan during this one battle. We might have succeeded anyway, at far greater cost, but for this battle, as they definitely had the upper hand in maritime strength prior.

Jones

BTW my stepfather was on the ill-fated Yorktown (both the first and second versions), and surviving that sinking (by torpedo) required its own bit of luck.


------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 22 18:52:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAN2pHjW011407; Tue, 22 Nov 2005 18:51:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAN2pDrv011359; Tue, 22 Nov 2005 18:51:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 18:51:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4383D8FC.1000903 pobox.com> Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 21:50:36 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.10) Gecko/20050719 Fedora/1.7.10-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Pearl Harbor etc. References: <4eo5r2$tknudb mxip04a.cluster1.charter.net> <000001c5ef95$c2cf53a0$5c5e10ac@eDentsply.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20051122151900.04b778c0@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20051122151900.04b778c0 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64571 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > > 3. Nobody in the administration or the US military had the slightest > idea the target was Pearl Harbor. If they had suspected an attack was > coming, they would have sortied the fleet and met the Japanese on the > high seas. That would have been a disaster. They would have lost 6,000 > men or more, and every ship that sank would have been lost for good. > (Most of the ships that sank in the harbor were salvaged.) As one > admiral put it, it was God's mercy that they were surprised. That is a fascinating point, which I had never encountered before. The Japanese had naval superiority at the time, and had superiority in the air, and of course that conclusion would tend to follow. But then, until I googled the topic during the course of this thread, I also never realized that nearly all the ships which were sunk in the harbor were raised and returned to service, and used in the war. According to a capsule history of the war which I ran across, only one ship was put permanently out of commission (the Arizona). From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 22 19:08:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAN35eTq016331; Tue, 22 Nov 2005 19:05:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAN35Ui6016270; Tue, 22 Nov 2005 19:05:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 19:05:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <3AB2240B6206D911B21500508B6D8E307A950B caraupermb01.carrier-apac.com.au> From: John.Rudiger carrier.utc.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: OT - Company Policy!!! Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 11:01:50 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64572 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: John.Rudiger Very good read, btw! > And that, my friends, is how company policy begins. > You must have a Masters in Business Administration, don't you.;-) Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com Hi Steven, No Degree at all, but I am observant and I do get plenty of inspiration from the upper management of the company I work for. It's amazing the gems that get forwarded around by email, this was one of them. It is so unfortunate that the entire human species seems to get stuck in this type of "Pavlos Dog" behaviour routine, some of us can see it and are branded "rebels", "non conformists" etc. John Rudiger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 22 19:48:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAN3jZ3Q031481; Tue, 22 Nov 2005 19:45:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAN3jMno031196; Tue, 22 Nov 2005 19:45:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 19:45:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4383E5AF.1030306 pobox.com> Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 22:44:47 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.10) Gecko/20050719 Fedora/1.7.10-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Pearl Harbor etc. References: <410-220051122213431770 ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: <410-220051122213431770 ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64573 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Akira Kawasaki wrote: >November 22, 2005 > >Vortex, > Interesting OT. >I will not go into the long historical events between Japan, the U.S., and >international interacting scenes of empires that lead up to WWII. It is too >involved to write about here. But the history of the period from the time >Japan opened up and to the current day is interesting because my family >moved back and forth between the two nations and became deeply affected by >the war, as were countless millions on earth. And I did have some trauma >about it. >In 2000 and 2001 a Touchstone publication by Robert B. Stinnet came out >which documents Roosevelt leading events in "diplomacy" and strategies >which lead to entry into the European war through the "back door" >shenanigans with >Japan. Stinnet sees Roosevelt acting in a patriotic manner. Everybody will >have their own take on Roosevelt and on the war. > > Even many of us in America can see him from more than one side at the same time, and I was taught to see WWII from two points of view when I was growing up. My parents were America Firsters, and there was a strong feeling in my family that it might have been better had we not entered the war. The optimistic scenario which was imagined was that Germany and Russia would have fought each other to a standstill. The result of that seems a bit hazy, but it certainly would have led to a weaker Russia after the war, which seemed like a Really Great Idea back during the peak of the Cold War. And they certainly didn't feel there had been any reason to jump into the mess in the Orient. America First, for those who are not aware of it, was an anti-war organization whose best-known spokesman was Charles Lindberg. Interestingly, I understand that the leaders of the organization actually destroyed the membership records shortly after the United States declared war, on the assumption that it was going to be bad news for anyone to be associated with such an organization in the hyper-patriotic hawk-like atmosphere which would inevitably prevail during the war. In other words, they did it to protect the members. My father viewed Roosevelt as a war-mongering Spendocrat who prolonged the depression for an extra 6 years or so with his terrible financial policies. (I can still hear my father saying, "Roosevelt _never_ ended the depression -- the depression was ended by Adolf Hitler!") My viewpoint is rather different; my reading has included a description of the goings-on at Nanking, which makes Roosevelt's apparent eagerness to mix it up with Japan seem a little less outrageous, and my take on such diabolical inventions of Roosevelt as Social Security is that this country is better for having them. Like the war with Germany, the war with Japan was a war with the Japanese government which was in power at that time, not a war with the Japanese people (wartime propaganda aside). Is that a meaningful distinction? You betcha -- look at the Balkans, look at the Middle East, look at Rwanda, look at Hitler's lopsided "war" against the Jews, and you'll see what I mean. Like nearly everyone (except George W. Bush) Roosevelt was a mixed bag. He had some good points, but he made some mistakes too, and when you're President your mistakes tend to carry a high cost for everybody. > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 22 20:03:01 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAN42OC5009742; Tue, 22 Nov 2005 20:02:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAN42Mx2009725; Tue, 22 Nov 2005 20:02:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 20:02:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4383E9B6.3040205 pobox.com> Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 23:01:58 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.10) Gecko/20050719 Fedora/1.7.10-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC History's might-have-been's - Pacific war almost averted References: <410-2200511222184310 ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: <410-2200511222184310 ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64574 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Akira Kawasaki wrote: > Nov. 22, 2005 > > Vortex, > > Military documents obtained through "Freedom of Information Act" > invoked by Stinnet shows that United States had broken both > diplomatic and military codes used by Japan by 1939-1940. > Roosevelt knew every move Japan was making. He knew that their navy > was on the way. There was no radio silence as asserted. "God Bless" > the Army and Navy code breakers. > Pearl Harbor was not a surprise, the Midway tactic was known, and > Yamamoto was later killed by knowing his inspection route. > The sad thing on Japan's side was that they never caught on that their > codes were broken. Like Germany.... The German high command was so convinced of German intellectual superiority that they refused to consider the possibility that anyone could have broken their unbreakable code. > It is also safe to assume that United States knew about Japan > scrambling to come to surrender negotiations through then neutral > Russia much prior to dropping of the Atomic Bomb. It was Truman, not Roosevelt, who decided to go through with that. We shouldn't blame Eisenhower, either, who later said something to the effect of, "They didn't have to use that thing!" FWIW I was taught in school that Japan had indeed offered a conditional surrender before the second bomb fell, but Truman would not settle for any such offer, he wanted the surrender to be unconditional, dictated and not negotiated. After the second bomb he got his "unconditional" surrender. > Those commanders caught by surprise at Pearl were kept out of the > crucial information loop. MacAurthur was not one of those. He just > didn't get enough supplies in time. You see, Europe was the priority. > By the way, Stinnet's book is "Day of Deceit, The Truth About FDR and > Pearl Harbor". So, if it's true, why _did_ FDR _not_ send the fleet to sea? Is there any kind of conclusive answer to that question? > > -ak- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 22 20:37:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAN4aTTb021549; Tue, 22 Nov 2005 20:36:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAN4aQCZ021530; Tue, 22 Nov 2005 20:36:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 20:36:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <17330536.1132720567417.JavaMail.root mswamui-andean.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 23:36:07 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC History's might-have-been's - Pacific war almost averted Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64575 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Akira Kawasaki wrote: >Military documents obtained through "Freedom of Information Act" invoked by Stinnet shows that United States >had broken both diplomatic and military codes used by Japan by 1939-1940. That was not released from the F.O.I.A. It was common knowledge decades before that act was passed. It was described in books published in the 1960s. > Roosevelt knew every move Japan was making. > He knew that their navy was on the way. No, he did not. First, they never broadcast their intentions in any code -- no navy does. Second, the I.J.N. code was not "broken" completely. Note that it was a code, with thousands of random numbers substituting for words, and there were several different versions. whereas the diplomatic "code" was a cypher. When you crack a cypher, you can read the entire message. In 1941 and 1942, U.S. intelligence could read 10 or 15% of the I.J.N. codes, but every time the code books changed (such as just before Midway) they were back to square zero. Most of their analysis was based on frequency, direction, identifying operators, and cracking some key words. (Later in the war, they used IBM punch card equipment to read more.) > There was no radio silence as asserted. There was radio silence before Pearl Harbor! The radios were mechanically disabled to prevent an accidental transmission. The regular operators were back in Tokyo sending fake messages or none at all. The U.S. listeners could identify the individual operators by their touch, and they know which operator was assigned to which ship, so they had every reason to think the fleet was at home. > Pearl Harbor was not a surprise . . . It was the biggest surprise in U.S. military history. > It is also safe to assume that United States knew about Japan scrambling to come to surrender negotiations > through then neutral Russia much prior to dropping of the Atomic Bomb. Sure they did. Heck, Time magazine published articles about it. There was a huge debate in the U.S. for a month as to whether to accept a surrender with only the Emperor's role preserved. The Japanese also sent messages via Russia and neutral third parties. The Japanese tried to keep the negotiations secret, but the U.S. broadcast the exchanges, printed millions of copies of the letters and air dropped them on Japan. It stirred up a hornet's nest of opposition from the hard-core militarists. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 22 20:55:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAN4tCfc026896; Tue, 22 Nov 2005 20:55:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAN4tBSA026882; Tue, 22 Nov 2005 20:55:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 20:55:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 23:47:25 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Scientists in a spin over curling clues To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <23b8a9241a66.241a6623b8a9 ncf.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 Patch 2 (built Jul 14 2004) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-language: en Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-Accept-Language: en Priority: normal Resent-Message-ID: <5hb3ED.A.9jG.uY_gDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64576 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status:



----- Original Message -----
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
Date: Tuesday, November 22, 2005 9:42 pm
Subject: Re: Scientists in a spin over curling clues

> In reply to Harry Veeder's message of Tue, 22 Nov 2005 18:42:05
> -0500:
> Hi,
> [snip]
> >> Marmo argues that the lubricating effect of the water under the
> >> stone increases as its velocity increases. The velocity of the
> >> right-hand side of a curling stone spinning clockwise is higher
> than
> >its
> >> left
>
> No it isn't. The right hand side of a clockwise spinning stone is
> coming toward the person casting it, and hence is going slower
> than the left hand side which is going away.
>
>
> >>causing it to curve right, the path of least resistance.
> Regards,
>
> Robin van Spaandonk

It depends on one's point of view which the author did not specify.

However, it is  common to assume the caster's point of view, rather

than a point of view from the opposite end of the rink.

Harry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 23 00:40:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAN8dfIt005534; Wed, 23 Nov 2005 00:39:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAN8dSlK005456; Wed, 23 Nov 2005 00:39:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 00:39:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: temalloy mail.usfamily.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <128.691e58ee.30ae6137 aol.com> References: <128.691e58ee.30ae6137 aol.com> Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 02:39:13 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: Defense contractor reticent on anti-gravity discovery Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="============_-1079387328==_ma============" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64577 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --============_-1079387328==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" The Baron replied >In a message dated 11/17/2005 12:54:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, >f.grimer grimer2.freeserve.co.uk writes: > > >Thanks for the above link which discusses the Nazi Bell Antigravity >idea that is very similar to the Carl Sagan Contact antigravity >device. I've spent several hours listening to the people who were promoting the Nazi antigravity idea. I asked them, if the Nazis had weapons like that, why did they loose the war? Their response was, the Nazis didn't loose the war, the Germans did. Someone should have told that to the Nurenberg 10. Yes, I've heard of operation Paperclip. >h shows a picture of a Nazi gyroscope device purchased in a Texas >military surplus store, The military industrial complex, sold off an antigravity device in a surplus store. Baron, thy middle name should to gullible. I've got a bridge in New York I'd like to sell you. If either the Americans or Russians had antigravity they would have incorporated it into weapons, and they would be selling them. > The book above describes the vortex physics detailed in >mathematical notation by Konstantine Meyl in his book scalar waves >which describes how the antigravity devices work. Have you built any machine that is detailed in Professor Meyl's book? Einstein's relativity theory overlooks the above ideas which are based on theories of objectivity and prove that an aether does exist which has been measured as the book Einstein believed in the possibility of an Aether. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- --============_-1079387328==_ma============ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Re: Defense contractor reticent on anti-gravity discov
The Baron replied

In a message dated 11/17/2005 12:54:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, f.grimer grimer2.freeserve.co.uk writes:


Thanks for the above link which discusses the Nazi Bell Antigravity idea that is very similar to the Carl Sagan Contact antigravity device.

I've spent several hours listening to the people who were promoting the Nazi antigravity idea. I asked them, if the Nazis had weapons like that, why did they loose the war? Their response was, the Nazis didn't loose the war, the Germans did. Someone should have told that to the Nurenberg 10. Yes, I've heard of operation Paperclip.


h shows a picture of a Nazi gyroscope device purchased in a Texas military surplus store, 

The military industrial complex, sold off an antigravity device in a surplus store. Baron, thy middle name should to gullible. I've got a bridge in New York I'd like to sell you.

If either the Americans or Russians had antigravity they would have incorporated it into weapons, and they would be selling them.


  The book above describes the vortex physics detailed in mathematical notation by Konstantine Meyl in his book scalar waves which describes how the antigravity devices work.

Have you built any machine that is detailed in Professor Meyl's book?


Einstein's relativity theory overlooks the above ideas which are based on theories of objectivity and prove that an aether does exist which has been measured as the book

Einstein believed in the possibility of an Aether.


--- USFamily.Net - $8.25/mo! -- Highspeed - $19.99/mo! ---

--============_-1079387328==_ma============-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 23 01:03:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAN9338P015393; Wed, 23 Nov 2005 01:03:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAN92vNg015335; Wed, 23 Nov 2005 01:02:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 01:02:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=ix.netcom.com; b=Knfl5SA3t2qpoI9ayvUhX0indd2GW9pDnHTu8EGErRVR3/Qq+jhPVLdDeY1n0wvW; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22005113231155270 ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.1.47.0 (Windows) From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: "vortex-l" Subject: OT: History Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 01:01:55 -00 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d857f46c57516b7a944e0958ed8c9a2640540b0f8a6f3b58b0350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 216.175.84.181 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64578 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Nov. 22, 2005 Vortex, As time of past events come into view as revealed in rummaging through archives and exchange of experiences, a final view of one's own place in history jells as we ourselves become closer to history. Robert B. Stinnett spent some twenty years of his life in research to write his very well documented work on that short history segment of FDR and WWII. I thank him for it. Some classified archived material he researched through for the first time has since been reclassified and withdrawn from view. His research material has been given to the Stanford Hoover Institute. I think it was premature to classify our human species as Homo Sapiens. Perhaps one day --- -ak- ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
 
Nov. 22, 2005
 
Vortex,
As time of past events come into view as revealed in rummaging through archives and exchange of experiences, a final view of one's own place in history jells as we ourselves become closer to history. Robert B. Stinnett spent some twenty years of his life in research to write his very well documented work on that short history segment of FDR and WWII. I thank him for it. Some classified archived material he researched through for the first time has since been reclassified and withdrawn from view. His research material has been given to the Stanford Hoover Institute.
 I think it was premature to classify our human species as Homo Sapiens. Perhaps one day ---
 
-ak-
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 23 08:38:02 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jANGbEv9009620; Wed, 23 Nov 2005 08:37:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jANGb7LP009504; Wed, 23 Nov 2005 08:37:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 08:37:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <004601c5f04c$14194bb0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: Favorable CF coverage Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 08:36:38 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64579 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Saturday 11/19/2005, it has been reported that on the History Channel (US cable TV) the show: "Modern Marvel" they ran an episode entitled "Doomsday Tech 1" in which a short but favorable blip on cold fusion at SRI was aired. The VHS is available here, but the segment in question was only a small part of it: http://store.aetv.com/html/search/index.jhtml?search=doomsday&itemType=All&x=0&y=0 Here is a description from someone who saw it. [I did not]. I can find no other good description online. The SRI device which sounds a lot like the Letts/Cravens device, mentioned on Vortex several times in which a laser is used to augment electrolytic effects. "They showed SRI International's working coldfusion device. The voice-over description said the device worked by illuminating with a low power laser a rod of palladium immersed in an electrolyte of deuterium heavy water. The laser wavelength was visually ruby red appearing to be near the wavelength of your average toy red laser pointer and judging from the size of the beam and small size of the laser device itself not much stronger. It might have even been a toy red type diode laser. They did say it was low power. There was only one beam. The voice over said they got 30 times the energy out of it that they put into it and helium was produced. They displayed a few live graphs as well as what appeared to be a temperature graphic of fusion taking place in a small niche in what I must assume was the palladium rod. The graphic showed a u shaped niche with a color gradient much like heat gradients look on a color infrared camera (perhaps it was a heat gradient). Two crosshairs labeled 1 and 2 were in the niche. The display showed 232 (on upper right edge of screen I have no idea what this meant - perhaps angstroms and perhaps cut off by right side of the screen could be 232++) The copyright on the show was 2004. They showed two devices. The first set up the story segment about coldfusion and was before they mentioned SRI. It may have been the early P&F device. It looked like a 1 liter clear glass or acrylic cylinder half filled with water END BTW Here is Steve Krivit's interview with Dennis Letts: http://www.newenergytimes.com/Conversations/Letts.htm Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 23 08:44:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jANGgsM2012458; Wed, 23 Nov 2005 08:43:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jANGgl5o012346; Wed, 23 Nov 2005 08:42:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 08:42:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Subject: The Most Astounding Nobel Prize Ever! Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 10:42:14 -0600 Message-ID: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50A7D536A CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: The Most Astounding Nobel Prize Ever! thread-index: AcXwTNufj+h9A75KRiuY3X3QtfMzpA== From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Nov 2005 16:42:14.0917 (UTC) FILETIME=[DC012350:01C5F04C] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id jANGgKMf012133 Resent-Message-ID: <_nSjXC.A.rAD.EwJhDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64580 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A See http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4307826.stm So, two guys get a Nobel prize for discovering that a bacterial infection causes ulcers. A simple antibiotic cures the problem. Does anyone see anything DRAMATICALLY WRONG with this event? They describe the discovery as "bloody obvious" and say that they were "shunned" and labeled as "eccentric". More than that, decades of "modern medicine" fail to correctly identify the simple cause of a painful and debilitating condition. If this sort of thing can 'get by' the supposed experts for huge periods of time, WHAT ELSE could we be missing ESPECIALLY in scientific fields that are vastly more speculative and remote than the immediate task of curing a pain in your gut? This event is downright scary - has society become so artificial and isolated in its logic as to permit this? Nor is this the only example. Recently, I got over a 2 month long viral infection that felt like it would never end. I recalled that when I was 20 years old, I was diagnosed with mononucleosis. I made the mono go away in two days after taking large doses of vitamin C. I tried the same thing with my recent illness and , in a few days, got the same result. I have since read that many alternative doctors have long known this and commented on the dramatic recovery of people with mono using vitamin C in large doses. I conclude that we - our culture of technology - could be dead wrong about an astounding number of things - given that it takes us decades of struggle even to recognize "bloody obvious" cures. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 23 09:37:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jANHaWV1003757; Wed, 23 Nov 2005 09:36:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jANHaVjw003728; Wed, 23 Nov 2005 09:36:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 09:36:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20051123092655.02912738 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 09:32:55 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: Favorable CF coverage In-Reply-To: <004601c5f04c$14194bb0$6401a8c0 NuDell> References: <004601c5f04c$14194bb0$6401a8c0 NuDell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64581 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: There is an interesting story about how Dennis Letts got his cell to SRI...he got it running while in his Texas laboratory and then put it in the back of his station wagon -- while the cell was running, I believe with a 12V battery, and drove it to the SRI lab in California. Apparently he was so determined not to be interrupted or interfered with on his journey, he brought along some "protection," tucked under the back seat, as the story goes. s >BTW Here is Steve Krivit's interview with Dennis Letts: >http://www.newenergytimes.com/Conversations/Letts.htm > >Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 23 09:56:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jANHsucb014604; Wed, 23 Nov 2005 09:55:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jANHspDl014545; Wed, 23 Nov 2005 09:54:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 09:54:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00a601c5f056$ed1dbd10$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <004601c5f04c$14194bb0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.2.0.14.2.20051123092655.02912738@mail.newenergytimes.com> Subject: Re: Favorable CF coverage Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 09:54:17 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <05CbDC.A.FjD.qzKhDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64582 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: That is a great "travel story" Steve! Worthy of a "60 Minutes" episode even...;-) I can say this because on several occasions, I have driven across the state of Texas by car, and even without a CF cell in the trunk - this Austin to El Paso is no little feat. You should do it up, just in case Leslie Stahl wants to run with it ! She is no steel-head, you know. Unfortunatley there is ZERO mention of this experiment on the SRI site: http://www.sri.com/ That may actually be at Letts/Cravens request, who knows. Otherwise - one would guess they feel the negatives of the story outweight the positives. BTW in scouring the SRI site, I did come across a fantastic new "stopgap" technology for coal - which is deserving of a seperate post: http://www.redherring.com/Article.aspx a=14474&hed=Coal+Fuel+Cell+Has+Promise+ I mean - since we are "stuck" with coal for the next decade, like it or not - let's at least do the best we can with it. "Coal Fuel Cell Has Promise" Fuel cells using traditionally dirty coal may be cheaper, cleaner than traditional coal plants. November 14, 2005. The latest fuel cell technology doesn't use emission-free hydrogen or methanol but rather traditionally dirty coal, a research group said Monday : SRI International, a nonprofit research and development organization, presented a carbon-based fuel cell technology Monday at the 2005 Fuel Cell Seminar in Palm Springs, California. Fuel cells are being looked to as a clean, inexpensive source of energy. Most fuel cells are seen as a potential replacement for batteries but coal-based fuel cells could have broader applications, producing general electricity for utilities. More on this later, unless S. Krivit is getting ready to post something on it... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Krivit" > There is an interesting story about how Dennis Letts got his > cell to SRI...he got it running while in his Texas laboratory > and then put it in the back of his station wagon -- while the > cell was running, I believe with a 12V battery, and drove it to > the SRI lab in California. Apparently he was so determined not > to be interrupted or interfered with on his journey, he brought > along some "protection," tucked under the back seat, as the > story goes. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 23 10:38:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jANIbJnL003870; Wed, 23 Nov 2005 10:37:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jANIbF4r003838; Wed, 23 Nov 2005 10:37:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 10:37:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002c01c5f05b$daad2e40$0200a8c0 user> From: "Noel D. Whitney" To: Subject: Fw: Ceramic pistons and liners Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 18:29:33 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0029_01C5F05B.D9C39190" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64583 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C5F05B.D9C39190 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Now that I am subscribed again - Like born again?? ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Noel D. Whitney=20 To: vortex-l eskimo.com=20 Sent: Monday, November 21, 2005 3:51 PM Subject: Fw: Ceramic pistons and liners ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Noel D. Whitney=20 To: vortex-l eskimo.com=20 Sent: Monday, November 21, 2005 8:54 AM Subject: Ceramic pistons and liners Regarding recent comm from Akira Kawasaki on small engines- Mode = aircraft type ,=20 has anyone come across small ( typical max 50mm dia) engine which = incorporated ceramic pistons and ceramic cylinder liners. i am after a source of same ?? I wrote to GE,s special materials lab in New York , but so far no reply. there was a company in Germany in the 90.s who did this to a very high = degree - No piston rings and a rotating piston with power from both = Compressed air and in both 2 stroke and 4 stroke formats for ICE = use.Regretably they went out of busines hwen the 2 Germany,s got = together! I want these for 2 uses - 1 ) Using Hydrogen without embrittlement = problems and 2 ) poss. water/steam use and therefore no lubrication and = high temps? Any help greatly appreciated and theres a pint of Guinness in Dublin for = the finder! Rgds Noel Whitney - quantum leap. ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C5F05B.D9C39190 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Now that I am subscribed again - Like = born=20 again??
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Noel D. = Whitney=20
Sent: Monday, November 21, 2005 3:51 PM
Subject: Fw: Ceramic pistons and liners

 
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Noel D. = Whitney=20
Sent: Monday, November 21, 2005 8:54 AM
Subject: Ceramic pistons and liners

Regarding recent comm from Akira = Kawasaki on small=20 engines- Mode aircraft type ,
has anyone come across small ( typical = max 50mm=20 dia) engine which incorporated ceramic pistons and ceramic cylinder=20 liners.
i am after a source of same = ??
I wrote to GE,s special materials lab = in New York ,=20 but so far no reply.
there was a company in Germany in the = 90.s who did=20 this to a very high degree - No piston rings and a rotating piston with = power=20 from both Compressed air and in both 2 stroke and 4 stroke formats for = ICE=20 use.Regretably they went out of busines hwen the 2 Germany,s got=20 together!
I want these for 2 uses - 1 ) Using = Hydrogen=20 without embrittlement problems and 2 ) poss. water/steam use and = therefore no=20 lubrication and high temps?
Any help greatly appreciated and theres = a pint of=20 Guinness in Dublin for the finder!
Rgds
Noel Whitney - quantum=20 leap.
------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C5F05B.D9C39190-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 23 12:04:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jANK3286011158; Wed, 23 Nov 2005 12:03:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jANK2VMq010928; Wed, 23 Nov 2005 12:02:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 12:02:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=ix.netcom.com; b=im4dqyowpuV8SWWZsN2YPuc5s9bS/micPk0fk8iBQnvJf1mQX8a2pG7pZgsQt+Jd; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220051132312118260 ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.1.47.0 (Windows) From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Fw: Ceramic pistons and liners Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 12:01:18 -00 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d8f431bb5953b82917e1c29d881b86b6e12601a10902912494350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 216.175.84.181 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64584 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Nov. 23, 2005 Vortex, Hi, Ceramics brought the name Kyocera to mind. Looking up their website should guide you to your search. One of the suggested material that may fill your quest is Silicon Nitride. And there are many companies that may fill your needs beside Kyocera. Good luck! -ak- ----- Original Message ----- From: Noel D. Whitney To: vortex-l eskimo.com Sent: 11/23/2005 6:37:34 PM Subject: Fw: Ceramic pistons and liners Now that I am subscribed again - Like born again?? ----- Original Message ----- From: Noel D. Whitney To: vortex-l eskimo.com Sent: Monday, November 21, 2005 3:51 PM Subject: Fw: Ceramic pistons and liners ----- Original Message ----- From: Noel D. Whitney To: vortex-l eskimo.com Sent: Monday, November 21, 2005 8:54 AM Subject: Ceramic pistons and liners Regarding recent comm from Akira Kawasaki on small engines- Mode aircraft type , has anyone come across small ( typical max 50mm dia) engine which incorporated ceramic pistons and ceramic cylinder liners. i am after a source of same ?? I wrote to GE,s special materials lab in New York , but so far no reply. there was a company in Germany in the 90.s who did this to a very high degree - No piston rings and a rotating piston with power from both Compressed air and in both 2 stroke and 4 stroke formats for ICE use.Regretably they went out of busines hwen the 2 Germany,s got together! I want these for 2 uses - 1 ) Using Hydrogen without embrittlement problems and 2 ) poss. water/steam use and therefore no lubrication and high temps? Any help greatly appreciated and theres a pint of Guinness in Dublin for the finder! Rgds Noel Whitney - quantum leap. ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Nov. 23, 2005
 
Vortex, Hi,
Ceramics brought the name Kyocera to mind. Looking up their website should guide you to your search. One of the suggested material that may fill your quest is Silicon Nitride. And there are many companies that may fill your needs beside Kyocera. Good luck!
-ak-
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 11/23/2005 6:37:34 PM
Subject: Fw: Ceramic pistons and liners

Now that I am subscribed again - Like born again??
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, November 21, 2005 3:51 PM
Subject: Fw: Ceramic pistons and liners

 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, November 21, 2005 8:54 AM
Subject: Ceramic pistons and liners

Regarding recent comm from Akira Kawasaki on small engines- Mode aircraft type ,
has anyone come across small ( typical max 50mm dia) engine which incorporated ceramic pistons and ceramic cylinder liners.
i am after a source of same ??
I wrote to GE,s special materials lab in New York , but so far no reply.
there was a company in Germany in the 90.s who did this to a very high degree - No piston rings and a rotating piston with power from both Compressed air and in both 2 stroke and 4 stroke formats for ICE use.Regretably they went out of busines hwen the 2 Germany,s got together!
I want these for 2 uses - 1 ) Using Hydrogen without embrittlement problems and 2 ) poss. water/steam use and therefore no lubrication and high temps?
Any help greatly appreciated and theres a pint of Guinness in Dublin for the finder!
Rgds
Noel Whitney - quantum leap.
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 23 12:24:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jANKNga2020086; Wed, 23 Nov 2005 12:23:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jANKNaNP020038; Wed, 23 Nov 2005 12:23:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 12:23:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001e01c5f06a$c8275e30$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <002c01c5f05b$daad2e40$0200a8c0 user> Subject: Re: Ceramic pistons and liners Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 12:16:25 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64585 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Any help greatly appreciated and theres a pint of Guinness in > Dublin for the finder! I don't think this suggestion is going to win that pint - but check with Honda Racing. Aren't you a motorcycle afficinado? You may remember that they had composite ceramic racing parts for a while - in larger dimensions, of course, but who knows? Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 23 12:38:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jANKcACT025071; Wed, 23 Nov 2005 12:38:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jANKcA8e025058; Wed, 23 Nov 2005 12:38:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 12:38:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Scientists in a spin over curling clues Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 07:37:46 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <23b8a9241a66.241a6623b8a9 ncf.ca> In-Reply-To: <23b8a9241a66.241a6623b8a9 ncf.ca> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta02ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.59.28] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Wed, 23 Nov 2005 20:37:44 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id jANKboPo024892 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64586 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to Harry Veeder's message of Tue, 22 Nov 2005 23:47:25 -0500: Hi, [snip] >It depends on one's point of view which the author did not specify. > >However, it is common to assume the caster's point of view, That's what I did. >rather than a point of view from the opposite end of the rink. > >Harry Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 23 13:18:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jANLHYdn008907; Wed, 23 Nov 2005 13:17:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jANLHUxt008877; Wed, 23 Nov 2005 13:17:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 13:17:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: ThomasClark123 aol.com Message-ID: <281.3ec778.30b6364d aol.com> Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 16:17:01 EST Subject: Re: Defense contractor reticent on anti-gravity discovery To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: ThomasClark123 aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1132780621" X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5042 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: <51ok7C.A.mKC.pxNhDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64587 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -------------------------------1132780621 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/23/2005 3:40:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, temalloy usfamily.net writes: If either the Americans or Russians had antigravity they would have incorporated it into weapons, and they would be selling them. Both the Americans and Russians have antigravity ships and flying saucers as Dr. Rich Boylan proves at his Website and in email evidence, but they keep them classified and secret just like the Nazi's did. The Nazi's had 3 secret levels of military weapons one's that were given to the standard military, one's that were given to a secret military, and ones that were given to a super secret military; and just as you stated, the secret and super secret Nazi military may not have been on the side of the Germans. The Nazi flying saucers were used by the secret and super secret military which fled in submarines to Argentina, and the south pole around 1945, and were later hired by the US CIA in New Mexico to build a super secret US space program run by the third world brown shirt (Indian and Middle Eastarn) Nazi's and Mexicans who now control the US in part by means of secret beam weapons warfare, organized crime, drugs, and a secret maffia like third world police force targeting US citizens especially whites. Some of the darker brown Nazi's were not German but Middle Eastern, Mexican, Asian, and Third World. The other Black Shirt Nazi's (Blacks that are white) secretly fled to be incorporated into the US Navy after 1945. NASA stands for (Nazi) and was created and run by brown and black shirt Nazi's who fled to the US after 1945 and is used as a cover organization to hide the super secret Nazi space program in the US. The Nazi's were used by the United Kingdom and Australia to secretly take over and collapse the USA. The British Flag is a nazi swastika if you look at it carefully, and Britain is associated with Frederick the Great who was an anti-German pro French socialist (Nazi) and who secretly founded the Nazi's in Germany and in the United Kingdom to take over Europe, the UK, and the USA. However Frederick the Great as was Hilter were also taken over by feminist Australian, Asian, Thrid World, and Canadian Nazi's who traveled back in time to force them to work for them. The secret Nazi's as does the Mafia really works for feminists in Australia, who control the whole world secretly from Australia. This is why there has not been a male King in the UK since world war II, because the Nazi third world feminists from Australia secretly rule the UK and the world since world war II and designate this by a female Queen as their symbol of power and control. Baron Von Volsung, http://www.rhfweb.com/baron, Email: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html President Thomas D. Clark, Email: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html, Personal Web Page: http://www.rhfweb.com/personal New Age Production's Inc., http://www.rhfweb.com/newage Star Haven Community Services, at http://www.rhfweb.com/sh Radiation Health Foundation Trust at http://www.rhfweb.com/ Making a difference one person at a time Get informed. Inform others. -------------------------------1132780621 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In a message dated 11/23/2005 3:40:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, temallo= y usfamily.net writes:
If either the Americans or Russians had antigr= avity they would have incorporated it into weapons, and they would be sellin= g them.
Both the Americans and Russians have antigravity ships and flying sauce= rs as Dr. Rich Boylan proves at his Website and in email evidence, but=20= they keep them classified and secret just like the Nazi's did.  The Naz= i's had 3 secret levels of military weapons one's that were given to the sta= ndard military, one's that were given to a secret military, and ones that we= re given to a super secret military; and just as you stated, the secret and=20= super secret Nazi military may not have been on the side of the Germans.&nbs= p; The Nazi flying saucers were used by the secret and super secret military= which fled in submarines to Argentina, and the south pole around 1945, and=20= were later hired by the US CIA in New Mexico to build a super secret US= space program run by the third world brown shirt (Indian and Middle Eastarn= ) Nazi's and Mexicans who now control the US in part by means of secret= beam weapons warfare, organized crime, drugs, and a secret maffia like thir= d world police force targeting US citizens especially whites.  Som= e of the darker brown Nazi's were not German but Middle Eastern, Mexica= n, Asian, and Third World.   The other Black Shirt Nazi's (Bl= acks that are white) secretly fled to be incorporated into the US Navy=20= after 1945.
NASA stands for (Nazi) and was created and run by brown and black shirt= Nazi's who fled to the US after 1945 and is used as a cover organization to= hide the super secret Nazi space program in the US.  The Nazi's were u= sed by the United Kingdom and Australia to secretly take over and collapse t= he USA.  The British Flag is a nazi swastika if you look at it carefull= y, and Britain is associated with Frederick the Great who was an anti-German= pro French socialist (Nazi) and who secretly founded the Nazi's in Ger= many and in the United Kingdom to take over Europe, the UK, and the USA.&nbs= p; However Frederick the Great as was Hilter were also taken over by fe= minist Australian, Asian, Thrid World, and Canadian Nazi's who tra= veled back in time to force them to work for them.   The secr= et Nazi's as does the Mafia really works for feminists in Australia, who con= trol the whole world secretly from
Australia. This is why there has not been a male King in the UK since w= orld war II, because the Nazi third world feminists from Australia secretly=20= rule the UK and the world since world war II and designate this by a female=20= Queen as their symbol of power and control.
 
Baron Von Volsung, http://www.rhfweb.com/baron, Email: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html
President Thomas D. Clark,= Email: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html,
Pers= onal Web Page: http://www.rhfweb.com/personal
New Age Productio= n's Inc., http://www.rhfweb.com/newage
Star Haven Community Service= s, at = http://www.rhfweb.com/sh
Radiation Health Foundation Trust at http://www.rhfweb= .com/

Making a difference one person at a time
Get informed= . Inform others.
-------------------------------1132780621-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 23 14:40:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jANMdwcq010598; Wed, 23 Nov 2005 14:40:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jANMdnIA010463; Wed, 23 Nov 2005 14:39:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 14:39:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Design help Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 09:39:10 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta01ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.59.28] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Wed, 23 Nov 2005 22:39:09 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id jANMdLSm009899 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64588 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi, I have a design in mind for a fusion generator. To progress with this, I need to create a decent description including diagrams which can be presented to various people in the hope of getting support in actually engineering and building it. Does anyone on the list have experience with CAD/CAM, and would they be willing to create a technical drawing for me, based upon a written description? This would be a "proof of principle"/prototype device. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 23 14:51:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jANMpFg6015931; Wed, 23 Nov 2005 14:51:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jANMouwP015772; Wed, 23 Nov 2005 14:50:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 14:50:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: Design help Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 16:50:31 -0600 Message-ID: <000c01c5f080$4f54e110$5c5e10ac eDentsply.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <8V4gh.A.O2D.OJPhDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64589 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Happy to help in whatever way I can. SolidWorks Ok? 8^) ~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~ John Steck High Impact Product Development Services DESIGN - ENGINEERING - MANUFACTURING - MARKETING ~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~ Quality is never an accident; it is always the result of high intention, sincere effort, intelligent direction, and skillful execution. -----Original Message----- From: Robin van Spaandonk [mailto:rvanspaa bigpond.net.au] Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2005 4:39 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Design help Hi, I have a design in mind for a fusion generator. To progress with this, I need to create a decent description including diagrams which can be presented to various people in the hope of getting support in actually engineering and building it. Does anyone on the list have experience with CAD/CAM, and would they be willing to create a technical drawing for me, based upon a written description? This would be a "proof of principle"/prototype device. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 23 15:19:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jANNIol5029090; Wed, 23 Nov 2005 15:19:05 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jANNIl24029064; Wed, 23 Nov 2005 15:18:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 15:18:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 18:18:19 -0500 From: hohlrauml6d netscape.net Message-Id: <8C7BE9B53240182-1788-3655 mblkn-m06.sysops.aol.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Why Prius Isn't a PHEV Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.70 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64590 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Why doesn't Toyota endorse the Plug-in? The shocking story is here: http://www.evworld.com/blogs/index.cfm?page=blogentry&authorid=12&blogid= 83&archive=1 or http://tinyurl.com/d8493 Exerpt: Panasonic is the exclusive manufacturer of the batteries used in the Prius, Highlander Hybrid and Lexus RX400h hybrids. Whalen is suggesting that the reason Toyota isn't interested in building plug-in hybrids (PHEVs) isn't because they don't want to. It's because they can't under Panasonic's license agreement with Cobasys. A plug-in hybrid that has a 20 to 60 miles of electric-only range would require a battery pack much larger than the 10 amp hour restriction of the license. Whalen asserts that Panasonic does, in fact, have a 95Ah battery that could be used in plug-in hybrids, but that it has mysteriously disappeared from Panasonic's online catalog. He believes the reason has to do with the $30 million judgment against Panasonic and Toyota for patent infringement. This is also why Toyota stopped making the RAV4 EV. It too required a battery pack much larger than the 10Ah limitation of the Cobasys license. ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 23 16:01:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAO00qd6010598; Wed, 23 Nov 2005 16:01:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAO000nK010207; Wed, 23 Nov 2005 16:00:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 16:00:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 18:59:20 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7BEA10DFC1884-18D0-15EB mblkn-m20.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d netscape.net References: <8C7BE9B53240182-1788-3655 mblkn-m06.sysops.aol.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <8C7BE9B53240182-1788-3655 mblkn-m06.sysops.aol.com> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: Why Prius Isn't a PHEV Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.138 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64591 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In greater detail: http://www.evworld.com/blogs/index.cfm?page=blogentry&authorid=51&blogid= 104 -----Original Message----- From: hohlrauml6d netscape.net To: vortex-l eskimo.com Sent: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 18:18:19 -0500 Subject: Why Prius Isn't a PHEV Why doesn't Toyota endorse the Plug-in? ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 23 16:11:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAO0Am00013845; Wed, 23 Nov 2005 16:11:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAO0AkF4013823; Wed, 23 Nov 2005 16:10:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 16:10:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 16:08:24 -0800 From: Mark S Bilk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Rheumatoid Arthritis, etc., Caused By Bacteria; Also Vitamin C Info -was: ... Nobel Prize Message-ID: <20051124000824.GA25409 linux.hsd1.ca.comcast.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50A7D536A CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> Organization: http://www.cosmicpenguin.com/911 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i Resent-Message-ID: <8CBytC.A.0XD.EUQhDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64592 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Chris Zell pointed out that the research linking Helicobacter pylori with ulcers was ignored and resisted by the medical establishment, and that its discoverers have just been awarded a Nobel Prize. Also that the usage of Vitamin C against viral infections has met with similar dismissal and resistance. I've used it on cats and young children (with dosage proportional to body weight), who were not subject to a placebo effect, and it was very successful (against upper respiratory infections, and measles with severe rash and fever). According to the research cited here (about 100 journal articles): http://rheumatic.org "rheumatic" diseases -- rheumatoid arthritis, lupus, scleroderma, etc. -- are caused by infections by certain mycoplasmas -- bacteria that lack cell walls (but of course still have cell membranes). These diseases can be cured by the proper antibiotic therapy! Here are some sources of information about Vitamin C: http://www.orthomed.com/ http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/ http://www.google.com/search?as_q=klenner+%22vitamin+C%22&num=100&hl=en This year I was getting frequent colds (or never quite getting rid of the same cold) and at least stopping the symptoms with 12-18 grams/day of Vitamin C as ascorbic acid. Dissolve, with constant stirring, 6 grams of ascorbic acid -- 1.5 teaspoon -- in a cup of water, drink it, then rinse your teeth with baking soda solution, as the acid attacks the enamel. The solution is pretty irritating; it tastes much better with 5 saccharin tablets in it. To avoid any possibility of getting it down your larynx, fill your lungs with air and pressurize it a bit while swallowing the solution. My local healthfood store proprietor suggested that excessive acidity in my body caused by the ascorbic acid was congenial to the infections, so I switched to magnesium calcium ascorbate: Dissolve 6 grams ascorbic acid, 1 teaspoon milk of magnesia -- Mg(OH)2 (shake well), and 1/4 to 1/2 teaspoon of powdered chalk -- CaCO3, in a cup of water, with constant stirring. Add the CaCO3 last after the C and Mg(OH)2 have dissolved, and titrate to taste -- it should be neither sour nor bitter, or a little of each. He also suggested Vitamin A (preformed, i.e. from fish oil, not carotene), 50-100,000 IU/day with a small oily meal for a few days only; this is also very helpful for bacterial sinus infections. Also powdered astragalus root ("Nature's Herbs" brand, actually Twinlab); the bottle says 6 of the 400mg capsules/day; I take 1/2 capsule/day, although it has no side effects -- I'm timid about herbs. The recurrent colds stopped after about a week of this treatment with a dosage of 6 grams (vit. C content) of the mineral ascorbate twice a day; now I only take it once a day. Mark On Wed, Nov 23, 2005 at 10:42:14AM -0600, Zell, Chris wrote: >See http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4307826.stm > > So, two guys get a Nobel prize for discovering that a bacterial >infection causes ulcers. A simple antibiotic cures the problem. > >Does anyone see anything DRAMATICALLY WRONG with this event? >They describe the discovery as "bloody obvious" and say that >they were "shunned" and labeled as "eccentric". More than >that, decades of "modern medicine" fail to correctly identify >the simple cause of a painful and debilitating condition. ... >I made the mono go away in two days after taking large doses of >vitamin C. I tried the same thing with my recent illness and , >in a few days, got the same result. I have since read that >many alternative doctors have long known this and commented >on the dramatic recovery of people with mono using vitamin >C in large doses. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 23 18:23:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAO2N5PB004086; Wed, 23 Nov 2005 18:23:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAO2N2Xj004058; Wed, 23 Nov 2005 18:23:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 18:23:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.2.20051123175345.02379bc8 pop.theworld.com> X-Sender: mica pop.theworld.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 18:01:40 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: LENR-CANR welcomes a growing international audience In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20051118173605.04369200 pop.mindspring.com> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051118173605.04369200 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.86rc1/1187/Wed Nov 23 09:40:13 2005 on pcls3.std.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64593 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 05:40 PM 11/18/2005, Jed Rothwell wrote: >"Cold fusion may be dead in the water in the US, ....." >- Jed > This is utter nonsense. After attending (and contributing to) the MIT CF Colloquium (May 2005) AND the American Nuclear Society Winter 2005 Meeting in D.C. (November 2005), it is apparent that cold fusion is slowly, and continuously, flourishing in the United States, both in terms of theory, better experiments (including control of both the desired reactions by several methods AND newer control of those that occur in the phase previously known as "Heat after Death"), and business development. Perhaps those who did not actually attend either conference should consider actually going to a US meeting before purporting they "(don't) know what is going on". Dr. Mitchell Swartz ===================================================== Cold Fusion Times http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html The journal of the scientific aspects of loading isotopic fuels into materials ISSN# 1072-2874 JET Thermal Products http://world.std.com/~mica/jet.html Working for Safe and More Efficient Heat Products to Serve You From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 24 00:19:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAO8ItKT016922; Thu, 24 Nov 2005 00:19:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAO8IqeA016904; Thu, 24 Nov 2005 00:18:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 00:18:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20051124081824762.1297BC400085 mwinf3016.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20051124081826.009a3f50 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 08:18:26 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Why Prius Isn't a PHEV Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64594 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 06:59 pm 23/11/2005 -0500, you wrote: >In greater detail: > >http://www.evworld.com/blogs/index.cfm?page=blogentry&authorid=51&blogid=104 > Mmm....That was very interesting and informative - especially the correspondence at the end of the article. Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 24 01:15:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAO9EfmK032318; Thu, 24 Nov 2005 01:14:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAO9EcfY032290; Thu, 24 Nov 2005 01:14:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 01:14:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <007301c5f0d7$707ca920$0200a8c0 user> From: "Noel D. Whitney" To: Subject: Ceramic pistons etc Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 09:14:13 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0070_01C5F0D7.6F909B70" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64595 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0070_01C5F0D7.6F909B70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable thanks to Jones and Akira for yr input, You are right Jones , Honda led the way on this for a while , regretably = they were as you say composite and I am after solid Ceramic . have had some luck in China and am following up akira,s idea with = Kyocera. Interestingly I think Kyocera came out of the beautifull Ceramic history = in japan and even more the German companies came out of Dresden ( = Dresden China? ) If anything come of this I will let you know. Rgds Noel Whitney PS - Havnt been out on the bike for 4 months ( Honda 650 bros - ( USA = Hawk650) ------=_NextPart_000_0070_01C5F0D7.6F909B70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
thanks to Jones and Akira for yr=20 input,
You are right Jones , Honda led the way = on this for=20 a while , regretably they were as you say composite and I am after solid = Ceramic=20 .
have had some luck in China and am = following up=20 akira,s idea with Kyocera.
Interestingly I think Kyocera came out = of the=20 beautifull Ceramic history in japan and even more the German companies = came out=20 of Dresden ( Dresden China? )
If anything come of this I will let you = know.
Rgds
Noel Whitney
PS - Havnt been out on the bike for 4 = months (=20 Honda 650  bros - ( USA Hawk650)
------=_NextPart_000_0070_01C5F0D7.6F909B70-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 24 05:25:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAODP2Or014185; Thu, 24 Nov 2005 05:25:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAODP0gQ014145; Thu, 24 Nov 2005 05:25:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 05:25:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Sender: jack mail3.centurytel.net Message-ID: <4385CB4C.4B713B18 centurytel.net> Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 14:16:44 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Rheumatoid Arthritis, etc., Caused By Bacteria; Also Vitamin C Info -was: ... Nobel Prize References: <20051124000824.GA25409 linux.hsd1.ca.comcast.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="xm" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="xm" Resent-Message-ID: <3NWgMB.A.9cD.r8bhDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64596 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mark wrote: Chris Zell pointed out that the research linking Helicobacter pylori with ulcers was ignored and resisted by the medical establishment, and that its discoverers have just been awarded a Nobel Prize ... According to the research cited here (about 100 journal articles): http://rheumatic.org "rheumatic" diseases -- rheumatoid arthritis, lupus, scleroderma, etc. -- are caused by infections by certain mycoplasmas -- bacteria that lack cell walls (but of course still have cell membranes). These diseases can be cured by the proper antibiotic therapy! ... Hi All, I was diagnosed with Lyme disease in 2000 and have been on heavy antibiotics ever since. If I stop, I will get rapid prostrate enlargement, although the antibiotics have not removed the spirochetes from my system. Here, in Lorain County, Ohio, we seem to be suffering from an epidemic of multiple sclerosis. MS drugs seem to work by intercepting antibodies, and they are very expensive. A family member with conclusive Lyme disease -- I have a photomicrograph of the spirochetes in her blood -- spends (that is her hysband's insurance plan spends) ten times more on MS drugs than would be spent on antibiotics. The antibiotics would at least make her functional even without "curing" the disease. It's a sad situation. If you want to read more on this, see http://www.avonhistory.org/bug/bugwar.htm Jack Smith From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 24 14:06:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAOM5YfG022692; Thu, 24 Nov 2005 14:05:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAOM5WlM022668; Thu, 24 Nov 2005 14:05:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 14:05:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000801c5f143$21abd7a0$0201a8c0 nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Off topic : greenhouse gases Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 22:04:59 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C5F143.1CA6BF40" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64597 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C5F143.1CA6BF40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This BBC news item reports that new ice core analysis shows that CO2 = levels are now higher than anytime in the last 650,000 years! http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4467420.stm ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C5F143.1CA6BF40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This BBC news item reports = that new ice core=20 analysis shows that CO2 levels are now higher than anytime in the = last=20 650,000 years!
 
 
http://new= s.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4467420.stm
------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C5F143.1CA6BF40-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 25 07:03:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAPF2kad020221; Fri, 25 Nov 2005 07:03:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAPF2e1c020172; Fri, 25 Nov 2005 07:02:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 07:02:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 10:02:12 -0500 From: hohlrauml6d netscape.net Message-Id: <8C7BFE85974942C-CDC-53B9 mblkn-m05.sysops.aol.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Aliens Must Have Oil Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.69 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64598 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://news.yahoo.com/s/prweb/20051124/bs_prweb/prweb314382_1 Excerpt: On September 25, 2005, in a startling speech at the University of Toronto that caught the attention of mainstream newspapers and magazines, Paul Hellyer, Canada?s Defence Minister from 1963-67 under Nobel Peace Prize Laureate Prime Minister Lester Pearson, publicly stated: "UFOs, are as real as the airplanes that fly over your head." Hellyer warned, "The United States military are preparing weapons which could be used against the aliens, and they could get us into an intergalactic war without us ever having any warning. He stated, "The Bush administration has finally agreed to let the military build a forward base on the moon, which will put them in a better position to keep track of the goings and comings of the visitors from space, and to shoot at them, if they so decide." I can only conclude that the Aliens have vast stockpiles of petroleum. ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 25 08:19:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAPGJ81d019510; Fri, 25 Nov 2005 08:19:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAPGIt7j019354; Fri, 25 Nov 2005 08:18:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 08:18:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <4enjqd$1mfmnva mxip17a.cluster1.charter.net> X-IronPort-AV: i="3.97,377,1125892800"; d="scan'208"; a="1828413418:sNHT14715400" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.18 (webedge20-101-1108-20050216) From: OrionWorks Organization: OrionWorks To: Subject: Re: Aliens Must Have Oil Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 10:17:45 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64599 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: hohlrauml6d ... > Hellyer warned, "The United States military are preparing > weapons which could be used against the aliens, and they > could get us into an intergalactic war without us ever > having any warning. He stated, "The Bush administration has > finally agreed to let the military build a forward base on > the moon, which will put them in a better position to > keep track of the goings and comings of the visitors > from space, and to shoot at them, if they so decide." > > > > I can only conclude that the Aliens have vast stockpiles > of petroleum. Which, of course, finally explains the real cause behind the current petroleum shortage. I feel so much better knowing that our world leaders have correctly assessed the danger. Beware of pesky reptoids, the spawn of Satan's loins. (Priceless!) Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 25 14:38:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAPMbPRo025269; Fri, 25 Nov 2005 14:37:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAPMbH4Q025217; Fri, 25 Nov 2005 14:37:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 14:37:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Radio Free GMR Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 17:42:38 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <20051125212757.85875.qmail web60313.mail.yahoo.com> Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64601 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Nick, That'd be called barkhausen noise; a magnetic effect even your dog can pronounce. The "wooshing" is caused by the unpinning of domain walls, if you look carefully at the signal with a scope you can see the individual avalanches of domain motion. Try it with various samples of transformer iron, I'm sure you can find certain samples that will show the effect very strongly. Your "bahhh" instinct is correct, the effect was discovered in 1919. Google on that keyword for more information, and consult your Bozorth for details. You do have a copy of Bozorth, huh? Well buy a used one, for bogs sake! Indispensible ref for things magnetic. K. -----Original Message----- From: Nick Reiter [mailto:avalonbiker yahoo.com] Sent: Friday, November 25, 2005 4:28 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Radio Free GMR ...or what is the sound of one electron flipping? Rather than go into a long winded preface describing the circumstances of a curious little effect I have been listening to lately, let me toss this out to the scholars of electrons. Is anyone aware of a source of white noise in electronic circuits that is related to either magnetic domain or electron spin polarization? (Or de-polarization?) I've been playing with non- or micro-inductive coils made from ferromagnetic materials (nickel wire mainly) and I've found a neat effect that manifests as a burst of strong hissy white noise "whooshing" when a large magnet is moved by hand toward the coil. To get a second whoosh , I have to pull the magnet away, flip it over to the opposite polarity, and then push it toward the coil again. As if the burst of white noise comes from domains being de-polarized and re-polarized... hysteresis noise? Replicating the actions with an identical coil made from copper wire produces no such effect at all. Just starting to play wit' dis' one, so my reports may be sporadic here. My "bahhhh" nature says that this must be something well known, but I've never run into it before. Still, I've been thinking along the lines of spin-spin communication, and more pragmatically, spin polarized radio. I've been trying to bone up on GMR and spin valve materials technology. Maybe there is some connection here? NR __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 25 15:30:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAPNUB6F009510; Fri, 25 Nov 2005 15:30:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAPMc69F025460; Fri, 25 Nov 2005 14:38:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 14:38:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: "Mark Jordan" Organization: attached To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 20:35:31 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Radio Free GMR Message-ID: <43877593.29661.2580B11 enki.cpovo.net> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <20051125212757.85875.qmail web60313.mail.yahoo.com> References: <23566b235bc1.235bc123566b ncf.ca> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (4.30 public beta 1) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-Authenticated-Sender: enki cpovo.net X-Spam-Processed: teta.cpovo.net, Fri, 25 Nov 2005 20:45:16 -0200 (not processed: message from valid local sender) X-Lookup-Warning: HELO/EHLO lookup on 192.168.7.108 does not match 200.203.23.218 X-MDRemoteIP: 200.203.23.218 X-Return-Path: enki cpovo.net X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-MDAV-Processed: teta.cpovo.net, Fri, 25 Nov 2005 20:45:20 -0200 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64602 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 25 Nov 2005 at 13:27, Nick Reiter wrote: > Just starting to play wit' dis' one, so my reports may > be sporadic here. My "bahhhh" nature says that this > must be something well known, but I've never run into > it before. > Barkhausen noise perhaps: http://jlnlabs.imars.com/spgen/barkhausen.htm Mark Jordan From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 25 17:41:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAQ1ePlo024460; Fri, 25 Nov 2005 17:40:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAQ1eFac024398; Fri, 25 Nov 2005 17:40:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 17:40:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 20:39:37 -0500 From: hohlrauml6d netscape.net Message-Id: <8C7C04165AA76AF-1E50-6128 mblkn-m12.sysops.aol.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <20051125212757.85875.qmail web60313.mail.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: Radio Free GMR Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.130 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64604 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hans Coler allegedly made a FE generator which self-synchronized these random domain shifts in ferromagnetism. Fairly reliable documentation supports these claims: http://www.rexresearch.com/coler/colerb~1.htm http://www.angelfire.com/ak5/energy21/hanscoler.htm The second reference, while incomplete, offers a beautiful image of an attempted replication. Dr. Harold Aspden offers an explanation: http://www.energyscience.org.uk/le/le07.htm -----Original Message----- From: Nick Reiter Is anyone aware of a source of white noise in electronic circuits that is related to either magnetic domain or electron spin polarization? ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 25 18:18:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAQ2HUZs007832; Fri, 25 Nov 2005 18:17:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAQ2HRDx007781; Fri, 25 Nov 2005 18:17:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 18:17:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 21:16:57 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7C0469C918BFE-1E50-61D8 mblkn-m12.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d netscape.net References: <2.2.32.20051124081826.009a3f50 pop.freeserve.net> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20051124081826.009a3f50 pop.freeserve.net> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: Why Prius Isn't a PHEV Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.130 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64605 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Indeed. I have read others state that you could simply weld together single-cell NiMH batteries readily available on the market. I think that takes over 6,000 connections for the Voltage and capacity in the RAV4 EV battery. {Actually, that should read ''. :-( -----Original Message----- From: Grimer To: vortex-l eskimo.com Sent: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 08:18:26 +0000 Subject: Re: Why Prius Isn't a PHEV At 06:59 pm 23/11/2005 -0500, you wrote: >In greater detail: > >http://www.evworld.com/blogs/index.cfm?page=blogentry&authorid=51&blogid =104 > Mmm....That was very interesting and informative - especially the correspondence at the end of the article. Frank Grimer ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 25 18:26:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAQ2PfGY012802; Fri, 25 Nov 2005 18:25:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAQ2Pc3t012741; Fri, 25 Nov 2005 18:25:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 18:25:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 21:25:05 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7C047BF8EF483-1E50-61EC mblkn-m12.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d netscape.net References: <4enjqd$1mfmnva mxip17a.cluster1.charter.net> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <4enjqd$1mfmnva mxip17a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: Aliens Must Have Oil Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.130 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64606 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Be (a)ware the double entendre, mon ami! Hey, wasn't it another Republican who began building these weapons? http://www.totse.com/en/fringe/government_ufo_coverups/reganufo.html -----Original Message----- From: OrionWorks To: vortex-l eskimo.com Sent: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 10:17:45 -0600 Subject: Re: Aliens Must Have Oil Which, of course, finally explains the real cause behind the current petroleum shortage. I feel so much better knowing that our world leaders have correctly assessed the danger. Beware of pesky reptoids, the spawn of Satan's loins. (Priceless!) Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 25 18:46:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAQ2jrAt021519; Fri, 25 Nov 2005 18:46:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAQ2jnwS021489; Fri, 25 Nov 2005 18:45:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 18:45:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Radio Free GMR Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 21:51:52 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <8C7C04165AA76AF-1E50-6128 mblkn-m12.sysops.aol.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64607 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: One Mr. WholeHam writes: >Hans Coler allegedly made a FE generator which self-synchronized these >random domain shifts in ferromagnetism. It is true that the actual barkhausen jumps are only random in some cases. In others they are quite regular and reproduce from cycle to cycle. This is not at all odd when one considers the source of the jumps, pinning sites are physical dislocations and inclusions in the crystal lattice of the ferromagnet and don't move around. So domain walls tend to get stuck at the same places each cycle. One can "synchronize" the jumps by playing games with the underlying material, check out wiegand wires for more information about one such implementation. I wouldn't be expecting to power my house with this just yet though...(grin) K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 25 19:26:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAQ3PduK005807; Fri, 25 Nov 2005 19:25:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAQ3PbNV005778; Fri, 25 Nov 2005 19:25:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 19:25:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Message-ID: <4387D59A.8070407 iinet.net.au> Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 14:25:14 +1100 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: challenging papers References: <43810E48.2040605 iinet.net.au> <4381E807.6070201@ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: <4381E807.6070201 ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64608 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thanks Ed the Students guide is my main resource and I've read it. I was just being thorough and careful before diving in to a room full of politicians, scientists and others. Better me than you hey. I have this vision of John Huizinga or someone stubbornly driving to the mall in the worlds last internal combustion powered car and facing a car park filled with fusion cars. Have fun in Japan Folks. Edmund Storms wrote: > Wesley, read the Student's Guide to Cold Fusion. Most of the major > papers are listed there and their importance is described. A simple > list of papers would not do much good because it is the relationship > between the various observations that is important. An untrained or > uninformed person can not see this relationship very easily, thus the > need for such reviews. As for the skeptics, no amount of reading will > change their minds, so using this method to change minds is a waste > of time. > > Regards, > > Ed > > Wesley Bruce wrote: > >> I've said to a friend that most critics of cold fusion can't quote or >> cite a single paper critical of cold fusion. It's certainly correct >> in Australia. but is it correct in all cases. What are the papers >> critical of cold fusion and have we debunked them all in turn? We >> need a list and counter list on Jeds web site or ISCMNS or some where. >> >> > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 25 20:08:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAQ47moL019656; Fri, 25 Nov 2005 20:08:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAQ47ise019606; Fri, 25 Nov 2005 20:07:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 20:07:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 23:07:09 -0500 From: hohlrauml6d netscape.net Message-Id: <8C7C056018C265B-5E8-6569 mblkn-m07.sysops.aol.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: Radio Free GMR Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.71 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: <0CgTkC.A.IyE.O-9hDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64609 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Interesting, Ms. Nagel. Or is it Mr. Nagel? Your Yahoo profile says you're female, but I have not met many Keith girls. http://profiles.yahoo.com/horselover_fats We need more F's in FE! I find the Wiegand Wires (WW) interesting. I'll study the references more. Do you think the WW impulses tap the ZPF? -----Original Message----- From: Keith Nagel One can "synchronize" the jumps by playing games with the underlying material, check out wiegand wires for more information about one such implementation. I wouldn't be expecting to power my house with this just yet though...(grin) K. ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 25 21:06:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAQ55pG1009351; Fri, 25 Nov 2005 21:06:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAQ4tCdc005696; Fri, 25 Nov 2005 20:55:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 20:55:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Radio Free GMR Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 00:00:35 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <8C7C056018C265B-5E8-6569 mblkn-m07.sysops.aol.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64610 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Now Mr. WholeHam, if you're not nice I might do a search on the vortex list and see who else uses some of the unique features of your posts... I am legion, of course, or so it seems to the internet. I think wiegand wires can be viewed as macroscopic domains. You'll have to explain what "tap the ZPF" means though. K. -----Original Message----- From: hohlrauml6d netscape.net [mailto:hohlrauml6d@netscape.net] Sent: Friday, November 25, 2005 11:07 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Radio Free GMR Interesting, Ms. Nagel. Or is it Mr. Nagel? Your Yahoo profile says you're female, but I have not met many Keith girls. http://profiles.yahoo.com/horselover_fats We need more F's in FE! I find the Wiegand Wires (WW) interesting. I'll study the references more. Do you think the WW impulses tap the ZPF? -----Original Message----- From: Keith Nagel One can "synchronize" the jumps by playing games with the underlying material, check out wiegand wires for more information about one such implementation. I wouldn't be expecting to power my house with this just yet though...(grin) K. ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 26 00:07:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAQ86tbn007416; Sat, 26 Nov 2005 00:07:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAQ86krd007362; Sat, 26 Nov 2005 00:06:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 00:06:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: temalloy mail.usfamily.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <8C7BFE85974942C-CDC-53B9 mblkn-m05.sysops.aol.com> References: <8C7BFE85974942C-CDC-53B9 mblkn-m05.sysops.aol.com> Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 02:06:21 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Interglactic war Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64611 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: If you thought Iraq was expensive, just wait. > Hellyer warned, "The United States military are preparing weapons which could be used against the aliens, and they could get us into an intergalactic war without us > >I can only conclude that the Aliens have vast stockpiles of petroleum. This is a nonsequetor. I also think that this entire scenario is nonsense. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 26 01:05:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAQ94orR025049; Sat, 26 Nov 2005 01:05:05 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAQ94n9H025040; Sat, 26 Nov 2005 01:04:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 01:04:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20051126090420775.BD3983C00082 mwinf3212.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20051126090423.009a8ab8 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 09:04:23 +0000 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: RE: Radio Free GMR Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64612 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 12:00 am 26/11/2005 -0500, you wrote: > Now Mr. WholeHam, if you're not nice I might do a search on > the vortex list and see who else uses some of the unique features > of your posts... I am legion, of course, or so it seems to > the internet. Talking of searches, I was interested to find that a hohlraum is a piece of scientific equipment. ============================================ Definition of hohlraum A laboratory device to produce blackbody radiation. Consists of a closed metal tube, blackened on the inside, with a narrow slit cut into one of the flat ends. On heating the tube the radiation escaping from the slit is virtually identical with that expected from a blackbody. ============================================ One learns something new every day on Vortex 8-) Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 26 06:19:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAQEIkoP026723; Sat, 26 Nov 2005 06:19:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAQEIhHc026711; Sat, 26 Nov 2005 06:18:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 06:18:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=ix.netcom.com; b=WrxtU+wGWYEHiDE6jbpkjzI2j4VHXJkCRtD5kFkGFJmSEagD+T9hI5kYxvjYZ+j8; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220051162661741320 ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.1.47.0 (Windows) From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: "vortex-l" Subject: FW: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday November 25, 2005 Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 06:17:41 -00 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d8f4330a8cce4895cbac3141986291bc26a2d4e88014a4647c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 216.175.82.8 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64613 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > [Original Message] From: What's New To: Date: 11/26/2005 1:03:29 PM Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday November 25, 2005 WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 25 Nov 05 Washington, DC 1. NASA: "VISION FOR SPACE EXPLORATION" IS ALREADY IN TROUBLE. It was less than a year ago, that President Bush announced his bold plan to send people to reexplore the Moon and then explore Mars http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN04/wn011604.html The plan is not going well. First, we're told, the International Space Station must be finished as the US promised, even if it is just a Disney World ride for too-rich tourists. That means 18 more shuttle flights, which aren't happening due to new cracks in the foam. If the ISS is ever finished, it can be dropped in the ocean. NASA will then get on with a crew exploration vehicle to go to the moon, where we were 36 years ago. But that leaves a four year gap between the shuttle and the crew exploration vehicle with no Americans in space. Would anyone notice? 2. DARWIN: AMERICAN MUSEUM OF NATURAL HISTORY OPENS NEW EXHIBIT. In 1987, Norman Newell, a paleontologist at the AMNH, shared the Scientific Freedom and Responsibility Award of the AAAS for his early and persistent campaign to alert scientists to the threat posed by creationism to scientific education. At that time, the Louisiana "equal time" law was before the U.S. Supreme Court http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN87/wn021987.html . This week, with the Dover School Board ID case before a Federal Court in Pennsylvania, the AMNH opened an exhibit on the life of Charles Darwin, featuring a live specimen of the storied Galapagos tortoise. Corporate sponsors for such educational exhibits are usually easy to find, but the Darwin exhibit reportedly had to rely on individual donors and private charities for the $3M the exhibit cost. Although the ID controversy frightened off corporate donors, a Creationist Museum near Cincinatti, apparently had little trouble raising $7M for an exhibit featuring Adam and Eve. 3. SHAMIFLU: THE BUSH WHITE HOUSE AND THE WAR AGAINST BIRD FLU. President Bush went to Congress early this month to ask for $7B to prepare the nation for a possible outbreak of Asian bird flu http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN05/wn110405.html . The federal government has since become the world's biggest customer for Tamiflu, produced by the Swiss pharmaceutical giant, Roche. That was good news for Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld, who doesn't have bird flu. He doesn't have stock in Roche either, but he does have millions of dollars worth of stock in a company named Gilead Sciences, having been Gilead's Chairman prior to joining the Bush administration. Low-profile Gilead Sciences owns the rights to Tamiflu, which it outsources to Roche. There is little evidence that the antiviral drug would help much in a flu pandemic. 4. JAMES WEBB SPACE TELESCOPE: LAUNCH HAS BEEN DELAYED TWO YEARS. To cope with its budget problems, NASA will delay the launch of the infrared telescope. State Department permission is sought to launch JWST on the European Space Agency Ariane 5 rocket. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.bobpark.org What's New is moving to a different listserver and our subscription process has changed. To change your subscription status please visit this link: http://listserv.umd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=bobparks-whatsnew&A=1 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 26 08:40:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAQGdj8O016124; Sat, 26 Nov 2005 08:40:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAQGdgvB016104; Sat, 26 Nov 2005 08:39:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 08:39:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 11:39:16 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7C0BF139E9CE7-1F98-37A9 mblkn-m13.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d netscape.net References: <2.2.32.20051126090423.009a8ab8 pop.freeserve.net> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20051126090423.009a8ab8 pop.freeserve.net> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: Radio Free GMR Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.131 X-Spam-Flag: YES Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64614 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: That's me, hollow cavity with a hole in my head. -----Original Message----- From: Grimer Talking of searches, I was interested to find that a hohlraum is a piece of scientific equipment. ============================================ Definition of hohlraum A laboratory device to produce blackbody radiation. Consists of a closed metal tube, blackened on the inside, with a narrow slit cut into one of the flat ends. On heating the tube the radiation escaping from the slit is virtually identical with that expected from a blackbody. ============================================ One learns something new every day on Vortex 8-) Frank Grimer ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 26 08:43:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAQGgg3b017171; Sat, 26 Nov 2005 08:42:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAQGgbn6017120; Sat, 26 Nov 2005 08:42:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 08:42:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002b01c5f2a8$568d5e60$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: Moonidust Madness Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 08:42:06 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <9CqfU.A.bLE.7BJiDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64615 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Like some posters to vortex, NASA nowadays likes to spice-up (or 'sex-up' as the Brits like to say) its press-headlines for mass consumption... and why not? One assumes that the added touch of PR has a positive impact on funding levels from congress. Here is a recent one, but this story is actually both mesmerizing AND with alternative energy potential. Notice, however, that NASA never admits why it took them 33 years to get to this stage of R&D ! Mesmerized by Moondust November 21, 2005 http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2005/21nov_abbas.htm "Each morning, Mian Abbas enters his laboratory and sits down to examine--a single mote of dust. Zen-like, he studies the same speck suspended inside a basketball-sized vacuum chamber for as long as 10 to 12 days.... The microscopic object of his rapt attention is not just any old dust particle. It's moondust... Many researchers believe that moondust has a severe case of static cling: it's electrically charged. In the lunar daytime, intense ultraviolet (UV) light from the sun knocks electrons out of the powdery grit. Dust grains on the moon's daylit surface thus become positively charged. Eventually, the repulsive charges become so strong that grains are launched off the surface "like cannonballs," says Abbas, arcing kilometers above the moon until gravity makes them fall back again to the ground. The moon may have a virtual atmosphere of this flying dust, sticking to astronauts from above and below. Grains of lunar dust become positively charged by ultraviolet light... The ultraviolet light charges moondust 10 times more than theory predicts... Bigger grains (1 to 2 micrometers across) charge up more than smaller grains (0.5 micrometer), just the opposite of what theory predicts. END. OK given these findings - is there anything useful to vortexians and other alternative energy researchers here? A following post may include a more detailed moon-beam type of 'take' on some of the alternative-energy potentials of this kind of easily charged dust... but for now, two possible uses jump out like... well... like NASA's moon grains launched off the surface 'like cannonballs': 1) Capturing the UV component of solar energy, which most solar cells do poorly 2) Converting the energy of a nuclear reactor to electricity using fuel composed of circulating "dust" grains. As you might have surmised, I was onto this second idea for some time before this new NASA item of news came across the science-wire, but it does provide a nice segue... More to come... Jones Side note - and a related biographical good-read: Is there something to the myth which associates the Moon with Madness? as in ... "The men who fell to Earth" "Nine astronauts who walked on the Moon are still alive, but their clouds of glory have gone dark". Andrew Smith tracks them down in his book "Moondust" Only 27 men have ever left Earth orbit to see the moon from the perspective of Deep Space - all American between the Christmas of 1968 and 1972. They did not become the celebrities that one would have expected, nor did they live normal lives for the most part. >From the "Guardian" (Robin KcKie) "In those four wonderful Apollo years, it seemed that the post-war sci-fi visions of Arthur C Clarke and Isaac Asimov would be realized overnight. Then came the Vietnam war's final throes and Watergate. America's mood darkened, its public got bored with the Moon and the final missions were cancelled. 'The best of times for America was also the worst of times,' as NASA flight director Chris Kraft noted." Worse still, of the 12 men who actually landed, three are dead and many of them suffered psychological problems, despite having chosen as the crème-de-la-crème of American males (i.e. "the right stuff") ... Buzz Aldrin plunged into alcoholism - Charlie Duke (Apollo 16) became a drunken, rage-filled bully who persecuted his children wife, before eventually "getting saved". etc. etc..... Which leads us to another Apollo theme: the epiphanies. While Ed Mitchell returned in his Apollo 14 capsule, he glimpsed 'an intelligence in the Universe and felt connected to it'. He then set up the Institute of Noetic Sciences ... which only goes to show that the 'left coast' is really a state of mind... Anyway this an interesting biographical tale ... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 25 13:29:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAPLSXpm032585; Fri, 25 Nov 2005 13:28:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAPLSS4D032537; Fri, 25 Nov 2005 13:28:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 13:28:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=VxjnVK6pKfCMRwQNYz3gqdsrw/KcFVEt4N3a3ZajGUFt5NkoAncD8TPhgSy6dEuhp4QqV2kidTrIWPdXAd6Sref+tfxIpUocPMj0UZuf56/VZiY8a941JrTsxHIUDN1UxX3IJS+hMNN1A8woRnXzsqfK9ioDKN2Y0Xp4KaAXb9k= ; Message-ID: <20051125212757.85875.qmail web60313.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 13:27:56 -0800 (PST) From: Nick Reiter Subject: Radio Free GMR To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <23566b235bc1.235bc123566b ncf.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64600 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends12 Status: RO X-Status: ...or what is the sound of one electron flipping? Rather than go into a long winded preface describing the circumstances of a curious little effect I have been listening to lately, let me toss this out to the scholars of electrons. Is anyone aware of a source of white noise in electronic circuits that is related to either magnetic domain or electron spin polarization? (Or de-polarization?) I've been playing with non- or micro-inductive coils made from ferromagnetic materials (nickel wire mainly) and I've found a neat effect that manifests as a burst of strong hissy white noise "whooshing" when a large magnet is moved by hand toward the coil. To get a second whoosh , I have to pull the magnet away, flip it over to the opposite polarity, and then push it toward the coil again. As if the burst of white noise comes from domains being de-polarized and re-polarized... hysteresis noise? Replicating the actions with an identical coil made from copper wire produces no such effect at all. Just starting to play wit' dis' one, so my reports may be sporadic here. My "bahhhh" nature says that this must be something well known, but I've never run into it before. Still, I've been thinking along the lines of spin-spin communication, and more pragmatically, spin polarized radio. I've been trying to bone up on GMR and spin valve materials technology. Maybe there is some connection here? NR __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 26 13:02:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAQL2NLU001114; Sat, 26 Nov 2005 13:02:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAQL2KVl001089; Sat, 26 Nov 2005 13:02:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 13:02:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 13:02:00 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Radio Free GMR In-Reply-To: <20051125212757.85875.qmail web60313.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: References: <20051125212757.85875.qmail web60313.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64616 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Fri, 25 Nov 2005, Nick Reiter wrote: > Is anyone aware of a source of white noise in > electronic circuits that is related to either magnetic > domain or electron spin polarization? (Or > de-polarization?) Barkhausen noise. Caused by the walls of magnetic domains suddenly becoming un-pinned and jumping to new shapes. It also appears on a transformer secondary when you apply slowly-varying DC to the primary. Also, some of the early radio detectors (from the pre-tube era) were based on this, where a motorized loop of thin iron wire was passed between pole pieces and the RF influenced the hiss and made a sort of pulsewidth modulated audio. It was also claimed to be a source of FE by these guys years ago: http://amasci.com/freenrg/bark.html http://jlnlabs.imars.com/spgen/barkhausen.htm Here's another which, if real, must be from Barkhausen effect: http://my.voyager.net/~jrrandall/CookCoil.htm > I've been playing with non- or > micro-inductive coils made from ferromagnetic > materials (nickel wire mainly) and I've found a neat > effect that manifests as a burst of strong hissy white > noise "whooshing" when a large magnet is moved by hand > toward the coil. Try using pieces of steel shim foil, or of transformer lamination. The noise seems to depend on how many pieces you stack up (with thin sheets giving fewer but louder clicks.) I've heard that metglas gives weird results but haven't tried it. And years ago there was a company selling single-domain iron fibers which would give huge pulses when the field hit a certain threshold and caused the entire fiber to switch. > Still, I've been thinking along the lines of spin-spin > communication, If a domain wall is getting stressed by a rising field and is about to flip, perhaps non-magnetic signals can determine when the click happens. If so, then Barkhausen radio detectors might also pick up non-EM signals. (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 25 17:46:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAPMssql030763; Fri, 25 Nov 2005 14:58:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAPMsKDH030484; Fri, 25 Nov 2005 14:54:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 14:54:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=eNxK/X7TKVPCPb8yr4x/SrwSSGhHPCvzurP2le1dI/CQjh99wwfOj5kzlIjct/I2T3cWKSo/zM/hcXnWSV5784O7txY/LPnvbfQTp7Nrwr0oze6C+Ndui1foWao3rIabUhAxJXMEdKAT2A8evfXeRo6J2UALLmttH9A+aEsQNtg= ; Message-ID: <20051125225328.22986.qmail web60321.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 14:53:28 -0800 (PST) From: Nick Reiter Subject: RE: Radio Free GMR To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64603 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends12 Status: RO X-Status: Aha! OK, well, that name rings a bell! I'll study up on it a bit. Muchas gracias, mein cheese... When I began to play with this last week, one thing that came back to mind was a really neato article that I remember reading in an ancient issue of CQ (or maybe QST) from somewhere in the early 1960s. (An old ham down the road from me had given me a pile of these when I was a kid - wonderful reading) Anyway, it was an article by a radio engineer named Jerzy Ostermund Tor (spelling approximate). This fellow had developed a two way radio technique using the magnetosphere as the modulated medium, and double loop ferrous antennae for tx and rx. It was called MEMTAC. Have never seen anything on thatin the literature since. Might have been a ruse, dunno; or perhaps died with the inventor before being developed. Still, I wonder if somewhere in Barkhausen noise might lurk something useful. Maybe magnetotactic bacteria could be made to speak up! N --- Keith Nagel wrote: > Hi Nick, > > That'd be called barkhausen noise; a magnetic effect > even your dog can pronounce. The "wooshing" is > caused by the unpinning of domain walls, if > you look carefully at the signal with a scope > you can see the individual avalanches of domain > motion. > > Try it with various samples of transformer iron, I'm > sure you can find certain samples that will show > the effect very strongly. Your "bahhh" instinct is > correct, the effect was discovered in 1919. > Google on that keyword for more information, and > consult your Bozorth for details. You do > have a copy of Bozorth, huh? Well buy a used one, > for bogs sake! Indispensible ref for things > magnetic. > > K. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Nick Reiter [mailto:avalonbiker yahoo.com] > Sent: Friday, November 25, 2005 4:28 PM > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Subject: Radio Free GMR > > > ...or what is the sound of one electron flipping? > > Rather than go into a long winded preface describing > the circumstances of a curious little effect I have > been listening to lately, let me toss this out to > the > scholars of electrons. > > Is anyone aware of a source of white noise in > electronic circuits that is related to either > magnetic > domain or electron spin polarization? (Or > de-polarization?) I've been playing with non- or > micro-inductive coils made from ferromagnetic > materials (nickel wire mainly) and I've found a neat > effect that manifests as a burst of strong hissy > white > noise "whooshing" when a large magnet is moved by > hand > toward the coil. To get a second whoosh , I have to > pull the magnet away, flip it over to the opposite > polarity, and then push it toward the coil again. > As > if the burst of white noise comes from domains being > de-polarized and re-polarized... hysteresis noise? > Replicating the actions with an identical coil made > from copper wire produces no such effect at all. > > Just starting to play wit' dis' one, so my reports > may > be sporadic here. My "bahhhh" nature says that this > must be something well known, but I've never run > into > it before. > > Still, I've been thinking along the lines of > spin-spin > communication, and more pragmatically, spin > polarized > radio. I've been trying to bone up on GMR and spin > valve materials technology. Maybe there is some > connection here? > > NR > > > > __________________________________ > Yahoo! Music Unlimited > Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. > http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ > > > __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 26 13:10:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAQL9Tlv003101; Sat, 26 Nov 2005 13:09:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAQL9QQY003081; Sat, 26 Nov 2005 13:09:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 13:09:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: challenging papers Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 08:09:01 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <1ljho19igs1kol8tg2qbcjhc86fbcas6v5 4ax.com> References: <43810E48.2040605 iinet.net.au> <4381E807.6070201@ix.netcom.com> <4387D59A.8070407@iinet.net.au> In-Reply-To: <4387D59A.8070407 iinet.net.au> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.59.28] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Sat, 26 Nov 2005 21:09:00 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id jAQL96KV002936 Resent-Message-ID: <5RnMUC.A.Dw.G8MiDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64617 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to Wesley Bruce's message of Sat, 26 Nov 2005 14:25:14 +1100: Hi, [snip] >Thanks Ed the Students guide is my main resource and I've read it. I was >just being thorough and careful before diving in to a room full of >politicians, scientists and others. Better me than you hey. >I have this vision of John Huizinga or someone stubbornly driving to the >mall in the worlds last internal combustion powered car and facing a car >park filled with fusion cars. [snip] ...or pushing his car (now with empty gas tank) along the freeway, looking for the last gas station. ;) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 26 17:57:54 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAR1vHaV001095; Sat, 26 Nov 2005 17:57:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAR1vDuM001062; Sat, 26 Nov 2005 17:57:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 17:57:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Message-ID: <43891264.9030602 iinet.net.au> Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 12:56:52 +1100 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: challenging papers References: <43810E48.2040605 iinet.net.au> <4381E807.6070201@ix.netcom.com> <4387D59A.8070407@iinet.net.au> <1ljho19igs1kol8tg2qbcjhc86fbcas6v5@4ax.com> In-Reply-To: <1ljho19igs1kol8tg2qbcjhc86fbcas6v5 4ax.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64618 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >In reply to Wesley Bruce's message of Sat, 26 Nov 2005 14:25:14 >+1100: >Hi, >[snip] > > >>Thanks Ed the Students guide is my main resource and I've read it. I was >>just being thorough and careful before diving in to a room full of >>politicians, scientists and others. Better me than you hey. >>I have this vision of John Huizinga or someone stubbornly driving to the >>mall in the worlds last internal combustion powered car and facing a car >>park filled with fusion cars. >> >> >[snip] >...or pushing his car (now with empty gas tank) along the freeway, >looking for the last gas station. ;) > > No My dad has a bullnose Morris vintage car so when I'm rich and famous I'll have to put together a mail order petrol service for his vintage car club. If I don't dad will kill me. :-D >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk > >http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > >Competition provides the motivation, >Cooperation provides the means. > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 26 18:39:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAR2cbEf014512; Sat, 26 Nov 2005 18:38:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAR2cYes014487; Sat, 26 Nov 2005 18:38:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 18:38:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 21:38:08 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7C112BC8EB8D4-1D1C-7454 mblkn-m16.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d netscape.net References: <2.2.32.20051126090423.009a8ab8 pop.freeserve.net> <8C7C0BF139E9CE7-1F98-37A9@mblkn-m13.sysops.aol.com> <8C7C11289A253EC-1D1C-7451@mblkn-m16.sysops.aol.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <8C7C11289A253EC-1D1C-7451 mblkn-m16.sysops.aol.com> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Fwd: Radio Free GMR Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.134 X-Spam-Flag: NO Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id jAR2cFLi014383 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64619 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: hohlrauml6d To: rvanspaa bigpond.net.au Sent: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 21:36:43 -0500 Subject: Re: Radio Free GMR :-) At least my posts are usually on topic. Hey mate, care to share your fusion generator design?    -----Original Message-----  From: Robin van Spaandonk    Would that explain your many posts of late? (Empty vessels make  the most sound). :^)  ___________________________________________________  Try the New Netscape Mail Today!  Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List  http://mail.netscape.com    ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 26 19:40:01 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAR3dA4i001556; Sat, 26 Nov 2005 19:39:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAR3d6GR001516; Sat, 26 Nov 2005 19:39:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 19:39:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000c01c5f2ff$d4c41650$ea027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Child's guide to nuclear Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 21:08:23 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C5F2CD.899B7010"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.4 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,HTML_90_100,HTML_MESSAGE,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64620 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C5F2CD.899B7010 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0009_01C5F2CD.899B7010" ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C5F2CD.899B7010 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank Another link, Richard http://www.quantum-vortex.com/quantum_vortex/quantum_vortex_11.htm ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C5F2CD.899B7010 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
 
Another link,
 
Richard
 
 
 
 http://www.quantum-vortex.com/quantum_vortex/quantum_vortex_11.htm=

 

------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C5F2CD.899B7010-- ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C5F2CD.899B7010 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000701c5f2ff$d429ab10$ea027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C5F2CD.899B7010-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 27 00:41:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAR8ea1i004603; Sun, 27 Nov 2005 00:40:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAR8eDsU004522; Sun, 27 Nov 2005 00:40:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 00:40:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: temalloy mail.usfamily.net Message-Id: Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 02:33:29 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Moondust Madness Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64621 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jones; With regards to your Moondust madness post, about the energy implications. Have you heard that Paul Brown's Nuclear Battery patent expired last spring? later you posted; Which leads us to another Apollo theme: the epiphanies. While Ed Mitchell returned in his Apollo 14 capsule, he glimpsed 'an intelligence in the Universe and felt connected to it'. He then set up the Institute of Noetic Sciences ... which only goes to show that the 'left coast' is really a state of mind... Response This brings to mind the NASA astronaut , who has been involved in the INE. He bills himself as a futurist. AFAIK, all he does is talk about alternative energy sources, OTHO, that's where the money is. I've been trying to view a paper which is posted on the www.americanantigravity.com website. I came across a link to a website featuring the "work" of that shameless huxter J R R Searle. The blurb says that "he's working on a machine," yawn. For the newbies, J R R Searle, has been telling people what they want to hear, and getting paid for it for the past 20 years. He claims to have built two machine which produced free energy, antigravity, and would cure all diseases know to man. He'd show you the machines, but when he set them in motion, they both flew away into space. Whether they flew into interplanetary space, or into the sun, is a matter of conjecture. IMHO, there is more conjecture about whether or not he actually produced any machines, for just drew pictures. I promise that I will apologize to Mr. Searle, for calling him a fraud, a charlitan and a huxter as soon as he demonstrates a machine which does any one of the above. Jed Rothwell, and I agree on this, and we don't agree on much. The above excuse should be carved in stone above the doorway to the crackpot inventors hall of shame, should that ever be built. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 27 11:48:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jARJlZvJ016776; Sun, 27 Nov 2005 11:47:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jARJksAf016550; Sun, 27 Nov 2005 11:46:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 11:46:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 11:28:48 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Most Astounding Nobel Prize Ever! In-Reply-To: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50A7D536A CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> Message-ID: References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50A7D536A CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64622 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 23 Nov 2005, Zell, Chris wrote: > Does anyone see anything DRAMATICALLY WRONG with this event? They > describe the discovery as "bloody obvious" and say that they were > "shunned" and labeled as "eccentric". More than that, decades of > "modern medicine" fail to correctly identify the simple cause of a > painful and debilitating condition. The inventors of the Scanning Tunneling Microscope reported the same thing (see below.) What's MUCH MORE scary is the fact that the large number of these events remain unknown to the scientific community. Ask researchers, and a few will be able to come up with the ridicule of Seimmelweis and sterile hands during surgery, or perhaps the ridicule of Weltner and Plate Tectonics. We're not taught about all the others. For example, Black Holes were invented in 1930 by theorist S. Chandra, but he was ridiculed into silence (with Eddington leading the sneers,) and Chandra was essentially hounded out of his position, having to move to the U. of Chicago. It put theoretical astronomy 30 years backwards from where it could be today (since black hole theory was only "rediscovered" in 1960, thirty years after being crushed.) We all grew up with the "Black hole" idea, they are in science books everywhere, and have entered pop-culture. Some physicists have even rode the path to fame and popularity by explaining the details to the public. But have you ever heard ANY mention that they were discovered 30 years early, and their discoverer was essentially silenced by a crowd of angry hostile British astronomers? And that's just one event. There are dozens of equally significant examples, and vast numbers of less important ones. > If this sort of thing can 'get by' the supposed experts for huge > periods of time, WHAT ELSE could we be missing ESPECIALLY in scientific > fields that Here's a scary thought from W. I. Beveridge, author of The Art of Scientific Investigation: Many discoveries must have been stillborn or smothered at birth. We know only those which survived. I started compiling a list, see below. Another scary thought: there should be numerous versions of this sort of list in science history books, or at least all over the internet. But there aren't any. Rather than being common and well known because they're important, instead these facts are embarassing, so nobody except weirdos like me ever mentions their existence. Ridiculed, vindicated scientific discoveries http://amasci.com/weird/vindac.html There are VERY few books about this topic. Here are a few I've found: http://amasci.com/freenrg/clbooks.html#eight > I conclude that we - our culture of technology - could be dead wrong > about an astounding number of things - given that it takes us decades of > struggle even to recognize "bloody obvious" cures. Exactly! That's why we're here. If the scientific mythology was correct, then our hobby would be hopeless, and there would BE no vast unknown for amateurs to explore, and only professionals with major funding would have any chance of uncovering interesting stuff. I think we have "Emperor's clothes effect" to thank. All the experts become blinded by beliefs and by misguided education, while a little kid is the only one who explores the secret unspoken concept that becomes so obvious in hindsight, after the little kid has pointed it out to everyone. One would think that the "Emperor's" advisers would be the ones most concious of his nakedness. But instead it's the outsiders who aren't infected with the same blindness. (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 27 12:28:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jARKRTSl001581; Sun, 27 Nov 2005 12:27:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jARKRNSq001453; Sun, 27 Nov 2005 12:27:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 12:27:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Most Astounding Nobel Prize Ever! Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 07:26:51 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50A7D536A CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta03ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.59.28] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Sun, 27 Nov 2005 20:26:50 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id jARKR0xZ001152 Resent-Message-ID: <-IzddB.A.cW.pahiDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64623 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to William Beaty's message of Sun, 27 Nov 2005 11:28:48 -0800 (PST): Hi, [snip] > Ridiculed, vindicated scientific discoveries > http://amasci.com/weird/vindac.html According to the Russians, T. Gold got his theories from them. [snip] >I think we have "Emperor's clothes effect" to thank. All the experts >become blinded by beliefs and by misguided education, while a little kid >is the only one who explores the secret unspoken concept that becomes so >obvious in hindsight, after the little kid has pointed it out to everyone. >One would think that the "Emperor's" advisers would be the ones most >concious of his nakedness. But instead it's the outsiders who aren't >infected with the same blindness. [snip] Subconsciously all humans crave certainty, which is why we are so unwilling to give it up just when we think we have hold of a large chunk of it. Of course in reality, there is no such thing as certainty, so our struggle is either endless, or we settle for delusion. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 27 13:22:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jARLLalb029086; Sun, 27 Nov 2005 13:21:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jARLLX9E029009; Sun, 27 Nov 2005 13:21:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 13:21:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 16:21:04 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: The Most Astounding Nobel Prize Ever! To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <2bc2c22be60c.2be60c2bc2c2 ncf.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 Patch 2 (built Jul 14 2004) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-language: en Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-Accept-Language: en Priority: normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64624 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status:

----- Original Message -----

From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>

> Subconsciously all humans crave certainty, which is why we are so
> unwilling to give it up just when we think we have hold of a large
> chunk of it.
> Of course in reality, there is no such thing as certainty, so our
> struggle is either endless, or we settle for delusion.

>
> Competition provides the motivation,
> Cooperation provides the means.
>

Are you certain?

Harry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 27 17:04:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAS13olj011035; Sun, 27 Nov 2005 17:04:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAS13lpd011013; Sun, 27 Nov 2005 17:03:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 17:03:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Most Astounding Nobel Prize Ever! Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 12:03:24 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <2bc2c22be60c.2be60c2bc2c2 ncf.ca> In-Reply-To: <2bc2c22be60c.2be60c2bc2c2 ncf.ca> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta01ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.59.28] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Mon, 28 Nov 2005 01:03:22 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id jAS13T6V010816 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64625 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to Harry Veeder's message of Sun, 27 Nov 2005 16:21:04 -0500: Hi, >From: Robin van Spaandonk > >> Subconsciously all humans crave certainty, which is why we are so >> unwilling to give it up just when we think we have hold of a large >> chunk of it. >> Of course in reality, there is no such thing as certainty, so our >> struggle is either endless, or we settle for delusion. [snip] >Are you certain? No, it's just the most recent working hypothesis. :) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 27 20:15:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAS4EQqR007713; Sun, 27 Nov 2005 20:14:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAS4EOsf007687; Sun, 27 Nov 2005 20:14:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 20:14:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Most Astounding Nobel Prize Ever! X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 8324edccdbae1c0007349b58b3c30403 Reply-To: michael.foster excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20051128041358.28E4E109EE7 xprdmailfe1.nwk.excite.com> Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 23:13:58 -0500 (EST) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64626 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Robin wrote: > Subconsciously all humans crave certainty, which is > why we are so unwilling to give it up just when we > think we have hold of a large chunk of it. > Of course in reality, there is no such thing as > certainty, so our struggle is either endless, or > we settle for delusion. Actually, I think that problem that has sickened science is not the craving for certainty. It is the compulsion to consensus that has caused the outrageous behavior of the "scientific community" toward its greatest innovators. Consensus science is, after all, not science. M. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 27 22:56:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAS6twMe030604; Sun, 27 Nov 2005 22:56:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAS6tn3n030520; Sun, 27 Nov 2005 22:55:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 22:55:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Message-ID: <438AA9BD.9060507 iinet.net.au> Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 17:54:53 +1100 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Rheumatoid Arthritis, etc., Caused By Bacteria; Also Vitamin C Info -was: ... Nobel Prize References: <20051124000824.GA25409 linux.hsd1.ca.comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <20051124000824.GA25409 linux.hsd1.ca.comcast.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64627 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ulcers were also cured by high dose vitamin C. A friend of mine was the person that launched black current juice back during world war two. They had scurvy in the British ranks at Tabrook. Acid vitamin C sources like oranges and lemons rotted quickly and made you sick in the heat and it burned ulcerated lips. Dr Travers Harrison OBE was an agricultural chemist at the British department of agriculture. With the Germans sinking ships no-one wanted to take boat loads of crops to America and the colonies so the department of Agriculture was stuck with millions of tons of surplus crops. Black currents by the boat load were piling up so Dr Harrison was tasked to check them to find out what was in a black current so a new use could be made for them. He found Vitamin C in a non acidic form. Just what the troops needed in north Africa. The troops were saved from scurvy and the war was won. A few years later a medical friend mentioned that he had a problem. Patients with severe ulcers were suffering from scurvy because they could not eat acidic food. Dr Harrison supplied some black current juice and saved the day. Then mysteriously the patients started getting cured. Hundreds of them improved with the ulcers disappearing faster than the scurvy. Today thanks to the Nobel prize winning research linking Helicobacter pylori with ulcers; we can see why the cure was working but in the 1950’s it seemed very strange. Huge doses of black current juice were used; litres of the stuff. Pure vitamin C had less of an effect. Black current juice its self was required. A certain associated sugar changed form in the processing. Thousands were cured but only now we are understanding what happened. Attempts to get the cure accepted though the 50’s and 60’s failed; scientists, doctors and pharmacists ignored or opposed the cure. Yet half a century ago Dr Harrison always believed he and his colleagues had found a cure for Ulcers that the world of medicine simply chose to ignore. Dr Harrison tale was my first childhood introduction to the idea that science often ignores a cure even though it would save millions from suffering. It taught me that scientists were capable of great things and at the same time great folly. Mark S Bilk wrote: >Chris Zell pointed out that the research linking Helicobacter >pylori with ulcers was ignored and resisted by the medical >establishment, and that its discoverers have just been awarded >a Nobel Prize. Also that the usage of Vitamin C against viral >infections has met with similar dismissal and resistance. I've >used it on cats and young children (with dosage proportional to >body weight), who were not subject to a placebo effect, and it >was very successful (against upper respiratory infections, and >measles with severe rash and fever). > >According to the research cited here (about 100 journal articles): > > http://rheumatic.org > >"rheumatic" diseases -- rheumatoid arthritis, lupus, scleroderma, >etc. -- are caused by infections by certain mycoplasmas -- >bacteria that lack cell walls (but of course still have cell >membranes). > >These diseases can be cured by the proper antibiotic therapy! > >Here are some sources of information about Vitamin C: > > http://www.orthomed.com/ > http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/ > http://www.google.com/search?as_q=klenner+%22vitamin+C%22&num=100&hl=en > >This year I was getting frequent colds (or never quite getting >rid of the same cold) and at least stopping the symptoms with >12-18 grams/day of Vitamin C as ascorbic acid. Dissolve, with >constant stirring, 6 grams of ascorbic acid -- 1.5 teaspoon -- >in a cup of water, drink it, then rinse your teeth with baking >soda solution, as the acid attacks the enamel. The solution is >pretty irritating; it tastes much better with 5 saccharin tablets >in it. To avoid any possibility of getting it down your larynx, >fill your lungs with air and pressurize it a bit while swallowing >the solution. > >My local healthfood store proprietor suggested that excessive >acidity in my body caused by the ascorbic acid was congenial >to the infections, so I switched to magnesium calcium ascorbate: > >Dissolve 6 grams ascorbic acid, 1 teaspoon milk of magnesia -- >Mg(OH)2 (shake well), and 1/4 to 1/2 teaspoon of powdered chalk >-- CaCO3, in a cup of water, with constant stirring. Add the >CaCO3 last after the C and Mg(OH)2 have dissolved, and titrate >to taste -- it should be neither sour nor bitter, or a little >of each. > >He also suggested Vitamin A (preformed, i.e. from fish oil, not >carotene), 50-100,000 IU/day with a small oily meal for a few days >only; this is also very helpful for bacterial sinus infections. >Also powdered astragalus root ("Nature's Herbs" brand, actually >Twinlab); the bottle says 6 of the 400mg capsules/day; I take >1/2 capsule/day, although it has no side effects -- I'm timid >about herbs. The recurrent colds stopped after about a week of >this treatment with a dosage of 6 grams (vit. C content) of the >mineral ascorbate twice a day; now I only take it once a day. > > Mark > >On Wed, Nov 23, 2005 at 10:42:14AM -0600, Zell, Chris wrote: > > >>See http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4307826.stm >> >>So, two guys get a Nobel prize for discovering that a bacterial >>infection causes ulcers. A simple antibiotic cures the problem. >> >>Does anyone see anything DRAMATICALLY WRONG with this event? >>They describe the discovery as "bloody obvious" and say that >>they were "shunned" and labeled as "eccentric". More than >>that, decades of "modern medicine" fail to correctly identify >>the simple cause of a painful and debilitating condition. >> >> >... > > >>I made the mono go away in two days after taking large doses of >>vitamin C. I tried the same thing with my recent illness and , >>in a few days, got the same result. I have since read that >>many alternative doctors have long known this and commented >>on the dramatic recovery of people with mono using vitamin >>C in large doses. >> >> > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 28 11:34:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jASJXuCO012244; Mon, 28 Nov 2005 11:34:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jASJXTmC012001; Mon, 28 Nov 2005 11:33:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 11:33:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: temalloy mail.usfamily.net Message-Id: Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 13:32:41 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Maser Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64628 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Is a maser a beam of sound similar to al laser? --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 28 11:53:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jASJqIAZ020644; Mon, 28 Nov 2005 11:52:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jASJq8sF020575; Mon, 28 Nov 2005 11:52:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 11:52:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=aYfrEzN2gmQ71prC78byxi+/VlnXM6ZGp9KnhO6LykWLmak6JkQ8cJmPXGuT8YOPqevTdSz7MgdUfFnFVKaxQ3rWCqWtNUZB54qGK9Gma0/96/tZPGYyDJlC3QWOtYiGMmoNZQpYClJ+V62BxIU5WPQ9WjUaRCh4O5sUFsvje2M= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 12:51:32 -0700 From: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Maser In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_14800_29636399.1133207492968" References: Resent-Message-ID: <2WIaeC.A.MBF.m_1iDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64629 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_14800_29636399.1133207492968 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline no, its a beam of em radiation in the microwave band similar to a laser. On 11/28/05, thomas malloy wrote: > > Is a maser a beam of sound similar to al laser? > > > --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- > http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- > > -- "Monsieur l'abb=E9, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to ma= ke it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire ------=_Part_14800_29636399.1133207492968 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline no, its a beam of em radiation in the microwave band similar to a laser.
On 11/28/05, thomas malloy <temalloy@us= family.net> wrote:
Is a maser a beam of sound simil= ar to al laser?


--- = http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www= .usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---


<= br clear=3D"all">
--
"Monsieur l'abb=E9, I detest what you writ= e, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to writ= e"  Voltaire=20 ------=_Part_14800_29636399.1133207492968-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 28 13:04:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jASL3rgg020622; Mon, 28 Nov 2005 13:04:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jASL3iut020537; Mon, 28 Nov 2005 13:03:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 13:03:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Most Astounding Nobel Prize Ever! Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 08:03:15 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20051128041358.28E4E109EE7 xprdmailfe1.nwk.excite.com> In-Reply-To: <20051128041358.28E4E109EE7 xprdmailfe1.nwk.excite.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta02ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.59.28] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Mon, 28 Nov 2005 21:03:13 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id jASL3IXj020316 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64630 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to Michael Foster's message of Sun, 27 Nov 2005 23:13:58 -0500 (EST): Hi, [snip] >Actually, I think that problem that has sickened science >is not the craving for certainty. It is the compulsion to >consensus that has caused the outrageous behavior of the >"scientific community" toward its greatest innovators. >Consensus science is, after all, not science. ...and what do you think is the driving motivation behind the "compulsion to consensus"? >M. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 28 13:07:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jASL6i85021870; Mon, 28 Nov 2005 13:07:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jASL6g6l021839; Mon, 28 Nov 2005 13:06:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 13:06:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Maser Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 08:06:18 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <26smo1d1r183n7lfmafcsr4jg1rdg7487i 4ax.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.59.28] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Mon, 28 Nov 2005 21:06:16 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id jASL6Mdx021703 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64631 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to leaking pen's message of Mon, 28 Nov 2005 12:51:32 -0700: Hi, [snip] >no, its a beam of em radiation in the microwave band similar to a laser. You missed the "of sound" bit. AFAIK there is no such thing for sound, because there is no way of storing sound energy at the atomic level, hence no inverted populations can be created, and therefore no stimulated emission is possible. > >On 11/28/05, thomas malloy wrote: >> >> Is a maser a beam of sound similar to al laser? >> >> >> --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- >> http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- >> >> Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 28 13:42:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jASLgE6F003472; Mon, 28 Nov 2005 13:42:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jASLg0ri003320; Mon, 28 Nov 2005 13:42:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 13:42:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=C6FDOI0N52RkAEpUQ3GgOkQFqKM38rwGy9C3tKGmKVV+OwIwDwFkzIAC4FOX5k5yZMGpcV8Owck1q2kBeQ/+aRpNaVHiKQQP6wrCvnpp9MHSLzTwmJx/jjoVwR8GYbJH4A+BylQuE0QViwvn0CSUiUI7JoZO+VAIUQwpOPOnXjM= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 14:41:32 -0700 From: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Maser In-Reply-To: <26smo1d1r183n7lfmafcsr4jg1rdg7487i 4ax.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_15942_17042453.1133214092121" References: <26smo1d1r183n7lfmafcsr4jg1rdg7487i 4ax.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64632 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_15942_17042453.1133214092121 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline i didnt miss it. i stated quite plainly that it was not sound. and im sure one could create something SIMILAR in sound, though it wouldnt be generated the same way, for reasons youve stated. also, theres a difference between the mechanical wave of sound and the enegy wave of light= . On 11/28/05, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > > In reply to leaking pen's message of Mon, 28 Nov 2005 12:51:32 > -0700: > Hi, > [snip] > >no, its a beam of em radiation in the microwave band similar to a laser. > > You missed the "of sound" bit. AFAIK there is no such thing for > sound, because there is no way of storing sound energy at the > atomic level, hence no inverted populations can be created, and > therefore no stimulated emission is possible. > > > > >On 11/28/05, thomas malloy wrote: > >> > >> Is a maser a beam of sound similar to al laser? > >> > >> > >> --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- > >> http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- > >> > >> > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > Competition provides the motivation, > Cooperation provides the means. > > -- "Monsieur l'abb=E9, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to ma= ke it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire ------=_Part_15942_17042453.1133214092121 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
i didnt miss it.   i stated quite plainly that it was not so= und.  
and im sure one could create something SIMILAR in sound, though it wou= ldnt be generated the same way, for reasons youve stated. also, theres= a difference between the mechanical wave of sound and the enegy wave = of light.  

 
On 11/28/05, Robin van Spaandonk <rva= nspaa bigpond.net.au> wrote:
In reply to  leaking p= en's message of Mon, 28 Nov 2005 12:51:32
-0700:
Hi,
[snip]
>= ;no, its a beam of em radiation in the microwave band similar to a laser.

You missed the "of sound" bit. AFAIK there is no such thi= ng for
sound, because there is no way of storing sound energy at the
= atomic level, hence no inverted populations can be created, and
therefor= e no stimulated emission is possible.

>
>On 11/28/05, thomas malloy <temalloy@usfamily.net> wrote:
>>
>&g= t; Is a maser a beam of sound similar to al laser?
>>
>>
>> --- http://USFamil= y.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! --
>> http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- >>
>>
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvan= spaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provid= es the means.




--
"Monsieur = l'abb=E9, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it poss= ible for you to continue to write"  Voltaire=20 ------=_Part_15942_17042453.1133214092121-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 28 15:26:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jASNPS2J017336; Mon, 28 Nov 2005 15:25:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jASNPLEf017269; Mon, 28 Nov 2005 15:25:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 15:25:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: "Rick Monteverde" To: Subject: RE: Maser Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 13:24:39 -1000 Message-ID: <001801c5f472$ee1415f0$a501a8c0 dtqf101> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: <26smo1d1r183n7lfmafcsr4jg1rdg7487i 4ax.com> Importance: Normal X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - server26.fastbighost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - highsurf.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Resent-Message-ID: <6s3Gh.A.sNE.gH5iDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64633 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Aren't phonons the storage of momentum/sound at the atomic or crystal lattice level? And wouldn't they be more or less in-phase when a bulk object resonates at that internal frequency? I suspect that a "singing stone" which has a resonant frequency *not* dictated by the cut size of the stone is just such an animal - a sort of sound laser. I suspect that the acoustic output is ordinary and isn't any more beam-like than any sound at that frequency (legends of acoustic stone levitation not withstanding). It might be called an AASER - acoustic amplification (by) stimulated emission (of phonon) radiation. Needs a better acronym, though. -----Original Message----- From: Robin van Spaandonk [mailto:rvanspaa bigpond.net.au] Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 11:06 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Maser In reply to leaking pen's message of Mon, 28 Nov 2005 12:51:32 -0700: Hi, [snip] >no, its a beam of em radiation in the microwave band similar to a >laser. You missed the "of sound" bit. AFAIK there is no such thing for sound, because there is no way of storing sound energy at the atomic level, hence no inverted populations can be created, and therefore no stimulated emission is possible. > >On 11/28/05, thomas malloy wrote: >> >> Is a maser a beam of sound similar to al laser? >> >> >> --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- >> http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- >> >> Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 28 18:37:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAT2afHl032195; Mon, 28 Nov 2005 18:36:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAT2aYAW032133; Mon, 28 Nov 2005 18:36:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 18:36:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 21:36:52 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: The Most Astounding Nobel Prize Ever! In-reply-to: <20051128041358.28E4E109EE7 xprdmailfe1.nwk.excite.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64634 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Michael Foster wrote: > Actually, I think that problem that has sickened science > is not the craving for certainty. It is the compulsion to > consensus that has caused the outrageous behavior of the > "scientific community" toward its greatest innovators. > Consensus science is, after all, not science. > > M. Should I agree or disagree? ;-) Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 28 19:22:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAT3LvBb017594; Mon, 28 Nov 2005 19:22:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAT3Lrjr017550; Mon, 28 Nov 2005 19:21:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 19:21:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <004301c5f493$f8583f70$70037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: <001801c5f472$ee1415f0$a501a8c0 dtqf101> Subject: Re: Maser Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 21:21:19 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.8 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64635 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi, Sound is light. Recent experiment demonstrating that light can be " frozen" is only one indication. Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick Monteverde" To: Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 5:24 PM Subject: RE: Maser > Aren't phonons the storage of momentum/sound at the atomic or crystal > lattice level? And wouldn't they be more or less in-phase when a bulk > object resonates at that internal frequency? I suspect that a "singing > stone" which has a resonant frequency *not* dictated by the cut size of > the stone is just such an animal - a sort of sound laser. I suspect that > the acoustic output is ordinary and isn't any more beam-like than any > sound at that frequency (legends of acoustic stone levitation not > withstanding). It might be called an AASER - acoustic amplification (by) > stimulated emission (of phonon) radiation. Needs a better acronym, > though. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Robin van Spaandonk [mailto:rvanspaa bigpond.net.au] > Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 11:06 AM > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Subject: Re: Maser > > > In reply to leaking pen's message of Mon, 28 Nov 2005 12:51:32 > -0700: > Hi, > [snip] >>no, its a beam of em radiation in the microwave band similar to a >>laser. > > You missed the "of sound" bit. AFAIK there is no such thing for sound, > because there is no way of storing sound energy at the atomic level, > hence no inverted populations can be created, and therefore no > stimulated emission is possible. > >> >>On 11/28/05, thomas malloy wrote: >>> >>> Is a maser a beam of sound similar to al laser? >>> >>> >>> --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- >>> http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- >>> >>> > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > Competition provides the motivation, > Cooperation provides the means. > > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 28 19:53:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAT3qTAS028004; Mon, 28 Nov 2005 19:52:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAT3qLbo027939; Mon, 28 Nov 2005 19:52:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 19:52:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: "Rick Monteverde" To: Subject: RE: Maser Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 17:51:45 -1000 Message-ID: <000001c5f498$3ad8cbe0$67bcdc0a RickSR1630> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 In-Reply-To: <004301c5f493$f8583f70$70037841 xptower> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64636 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: And everything is everything, but we've got to draw the line somewhere. RC Macaulay [walhalla cvtv.net]: >> Sound is light. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 28 20:00:01 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAT3x5D4030059; Mon, 28 Nov 2005 19:59:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAT3wwM7030005; Mon, 28 Nov 2005 19:58:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 19:58:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=cWysBW8mRqC1HqIo4LBoJAkdVoUggSIEAEECJkOmPmc26Fx1/nsaCq96FLAThe05elR4FjAas+iYejDMeq4AYZDNKJWebbThdEjZUSwhveWneTSPL3LWITCaiCIBQfN4pvHO9s3bGEH0epKZZkRc+uMGhfXxmZaNJ/KKxFAUMDc= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 20:58:39 -0700 From: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Maser In-Reply-To: <004301c5f493$f8583f70$70037841 xptower> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_1117_15630903.1133236719108" References: <001801c5f472$ee1415f0$a501a8c0 dtqf101> <004301c5f493$f8583f70$70037841 xptower> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64637 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_1117_15630903.1133236719108 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline no, sound is particles moving in a wave motion, and light is a wave motion in its own right. sound is closer to teh heat generated by shining light o= n something. On 11/28/05, RC Macaulay wrote: > > Hi, > Sound is light. Recent experiment demonstrating that light can be " > frozen" > is only one indication. > Richard > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Rick Monteverde" > To: > Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 5:24 PM > Subject: RE: Maser > > > > Aren't phonons the storage of momentum/sound at the atomic or crystal > > lattice level? And wouldn't they be more or less in-phase when a bulk > > object resonates at that internal frequency? I suspect that a "singing > > stone" which has a resonant frequency *not* dictated by the cut size of > > the stone is just such an animal - a sort of sound laser. I suspect tha= t > > the acoustic output is ordinary and isn't any more beam-like than any > > sound at that frequency (legends of acoustic stone levitation not > > withstanding). It might be called an AASER - acoustic amplification (by= ) > > stimulated emission (of phonon) radiation. Needs a better acronym, > > though. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Robin van Spaandonk [mailto:rvanspaa bigpond.net.au] > > Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 11:06 AM > > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > > Subject: Re: Maser > > > > > > In reply to leaking pen's message of Mon, 28 Nov 2005 12:51:32 > > -0700: > > Hi, > > [snip] > >>no, its a beam of em radiation in the microwave band similar to a > >>laser. > > > > You missed the "of sound" bit. AFAIK there is no such thing for sound, > > because there is no way of storing sound energy at the atomic level, > > hence no inverted populations can be created, and therefore no > > stimulated emission is possible. > > > >> > >>On 11/28/05, thomas malloy wrote: > >>> > >>> Is a maser a beam of sound similar to al laser? > >>> > >>> > >>> --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- > >>> http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- > >>> > >>> > > Regards, > > > > Robin van Spaandonk > > > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > > > Competition provides the motivation, > > Cooperation provides the means. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- "Monsieur l'abb=E9, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to ma= ke it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire ------=_Part_1117_15630903.1133236719108 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline no, sound is particles moving in a wave motion, and light is a wave motion = in its own right.  sound is closer to teh heat generated by shining li= ght on something.

On 11/28/05, RC Macaulay <walhalla@cvtv.net= > wrote:
Hi,
Sound is light. Recent ex= periment demonstrating that light can be " frozen"
is only one= indication.
Richard
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick Monteverde&= quot; <rick@highsurf.com>To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 5:24 PM
Subject: RE: Maser

> Aren't phonons the storage of momentum/sound at the atomic or crysta= l
> lattice level? And wouldn't they be more or less in-phase when a = bulk
> object resonates at that internal frequency? I suspect that a &quo= t;singing
> stone" which has a resonant frequency *not* dictated= by the cut size of
> the stone is just such an animal - a sort of so= und laser. I suspect that
> the acoustic output is ordinary and isn't any more beam-like than = any
> sound at that frequency (legends of acoustic stone levitation n= ot
> withstanding). It might be called an AASER - acoustic amplificat= ion (by)
> stimulated emission (of phonon) radiation. Needs a better acronym,=
> though.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: R= obin van Spaandonk [mailto:rvans= paa bigpond.net.au ]
> Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 11:06 AM
> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
> Subject: Re= : Maser
>
>
> In reply to  leaking pen's messag= e of Mon, 28 Nov 2005 12:51:32
> -0700:
> Hi,
> [snip]
>>no, its a beam of em = radiation in the microwave band similar to a
>>laser.
>
&= gt; You missed the "of sound" bit. AFAIK there is no such thing f= or sound,
> because there is no way of storing sound energy at the atomic leve= l,
> hence no inverted populations can be created, and therefore no> stimulated emission is possible.
>
>>
>>On 1= 1/28/05, thomas malloy < temalloy@usfamily.net> wrot= e:
>>>
>>> Is a maser a beam of sound similar to al= laser?
>>>
>>>
>>> --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! --
>>> http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html = - $19.99/mo! ---
>>>
>>>
> Regards,
> > Robin van Spaandonk
>
> http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
>
> C= ompetition provides the motivation,
> Cooperation provides the means.
>
>
>
>
>
>





--
"Monsieur l'abb=E9, I detest what= you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continu= e to write"  Voltaire=20 ------=_Part_1117_15630903.1133236719108-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 28 20:00:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAT3xSkT030226; Mon, 28 Nov 2005 19:59:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAT3xIDg030132; Mon, 28 Nov 2005 19:59:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 19:59:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000601c5f499$36e5a340$70037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: <000001c5f498$3ad8cbe0$67bcdc0a RickSR1630> Subject: Re: Maser Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 21:58:52 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.8 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64638 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Rick, So true, but the fun begans when you think about it. Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick Monteverde" To: Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 9:51 PM Subject: RE: Maser > And everything is everything, but we've got to draw the line > somewhere. > > RC Macaulay [walhalla cvtv.net]: >> Sound is light. > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 28 20:08:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAT47Yjv000537; Mon, 28 Nov 2005 20:07:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAT47VJq000509; Mon, 28 Nov 2005 20:07:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 20:07:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <000a01c5f49a$5c0660f0$70037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: <001801c5f472$ee1415f0$a501a8c0 dtqf101> <004301c5f493$f8583f70$70037841@xptower> Subject: Re: Maser Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 22:07:04 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01C5F468.10E275A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.7 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,HTML_40_50, HTML_MESSAGE,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64639 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C5F468.10E275A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Leaking Pen, Your analogy is only ONE manifestation of sound. i.e. heat ----- Original Message -----=20 From: leaking pen=20 To: vortex-l eskimo.com=20 Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 9:58 PM Subject: Re: Maser no, sound is particles moving in a wave motion, and light is a wave = motion in its own right. sound is closer to teh heat generated by = shining light on something.=20 On 11/28/05, RC Macaulay wrote:=20 Hi, Sound is light. Recent experiment demonstrating that light can be " = frozen" is only one indication.=20 Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick Monteverde" To: =20 Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 5:24 PM Subject: RE: Maser > Aren't phonons the storage of momentum/sound at the atomic or = crystal > lattice level? And wouldn't they be more or less in-phase when a = bulk=20 > object resonates at that internal frequency? I suspect that a = "singing > stone" which has a resonant frequency *not* dictated by the cut = size of > the stone is just such an animal - a sort of sound laser. I = suspect that=20 > the acoustic output is ordinary and isn't any more beam-like than = any > sound at that frequency (legends of acoustic stone levitation not > withstanding). It might be called an AASER - acoustic = amplification (by)=20 > stimulated emission (of phonon) radiation. Needs a better acronym, > though. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Robin van Spaandonk [mailto:rvanspaa bigpond.net.au ] > Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 11:06 AM > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Subject: Re: Maser > > > In reply to leaking pen's message of Mon, 28 Nov 2005 12:51:32=20 > -0700: > Hi, > [snip] >>no, its a beam of em radiation in the microwave band similar to a >>laser. > > You missed the "of sound" bit. AFAIK there is no such thing for = sound,=20 > because there is no way of storing sound energy at the atomic = level, > hence no inverted populations can be created, and therefore no > stimulated emission is possible. > >> >>On 11/28/05, thomas malloy < temalloy usfamily.net> wrote: >>> >>> Is a maser a beam of sound similar to al laser? >>> >>> >>> --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- >>> http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- >>> >>> > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > Competition provides the motivation, > Cooperation provides the means.=20 > > > > > > --=20 "Monsieur l'abb=E9, I detest what you write, but I would give my life = to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C5F468.10E275A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Leaking Pen,
Your analogy is only ONE = manifestation of=20 sound.  i.e. heat
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 leaking pen=20
Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 = 9:58=20 PM
Subject: Re: Maser

no, sound is particles moving in a wave motion, and = light is a=20 wave motion in its own right.  sound is closer to teh heat = generated by=20 shining light on something.

On 11/28/05, RC=20 Macaulay <walhalla@cvtv.net>=20 wrote:=20
Hi,
Sound=20 is light. Recent experiment demonstrating that light can be " = frozen"
is=20 only one indication.
Richard
----- Original Message = -----
From:=20 "Rick Monteverde" <rick@highsurf.com>
To: = <vortex-l@eskimo.com> =
Sent:=20 Monday, November 28, 2005 5:24 PM
Subject: RE: = Maser


>=20 Aren't phonons the storage of momentum/sound at the atomic or=20 crystal
> lattice level? And wouldn't they be more or less = in-phase=20 when a bulk
> object resonates at that internal frequency? I = suspect=20 that a "singing
> stone" which has a resonant frequency *not* = dictated=20 by the cut size of
> the stone is just such an animal - a sort = of=20 sound laser. I suspect that
> the acoustic output is ordinary = and=20 isn't any more beam-like than any
> sound at that frequency = (legends=20 of acoustic stone levitation not
> withstanding). It might be = called=20 an AASER - acoustic amplification (by)
> stimulated emission = (of=20 phonon) radiation. Needs a better acronym,
> = though.
>
>=20 -----Original Message-----
> From: Robin van Spaandonk = [mailto:rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au = ]
>=20 Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 11:06 AM
> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
> = Subject:=20 Re: Maser
>
>
> In reply to  leaking = pen's=20 message of Mon, 28 Nov 2005 12:51:32
> -0700:
> = Hi,
>=20 [snip]
>>no, its a beam of em radiation in the microwave = band=20 similar to a
>>laser.
>
> You missed the "of = sound"=20 bit. AFAIK there is no such thing for sound,
> because there = is no=20 way of storing sound energy at the atomic level,
> hence no = inverted=20 populations can be created, and therefore no
> stimulated = emission is=20 possible.
>
>>
>>On 11/28/05, thomas malloy = < temalloy@usfamily.net>=20 wrote:
>>>
>>> Is a maser a beam of sound = similar to=20 al laser?
>>>
>>>
>>> --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html<= /A> -=20 $8.25/mo! --
>>> http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.htm= l=20 - $19.99/mo! ---
>>>
>>>
>=20 Regards,
>
> Robin van Spaandonk
>
> http://users.bigpond.net.a= u/rvanspaa/
>
>=20 Competition provides the motivation,
> Cooperation provides = the means.=20 =
>
>
>
>
>
>


=


--
"Monsieur l'abb=E9, I detest what you write, = but I would=20 give my life to make it possible for you to continue to=20 write"  Voltaire ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C5F468.10E275A0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 29 12:01:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jATJxnhn014776; Tue, 29 Nov 2005 12:00:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jATJxK0a014451; Tue, 29 Nov 2005 11:59:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 11:59:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00aa01c5f51f$40632d80$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <001801c5f472$ee1415f0$a501a8c0 dtqf101> Subject: Re: Maser Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 11:58:21 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64642 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rick Monteverde writes: > I suspect that the acoustic output is ordinary and isn't any > more beam-like than any sound at that frequency. There is ongoing R&D of coherent acoustic phonon generation in piezoelectric semiconductors http://arxiv.org/abs/cond-mat/0301031 and optical phonon pumping http://flux.aps.org/meetings/BAPSMAR95/abs/SR1803.html which muddies the difference between light and sound in the infrared and terahertz ranges. There is a definite overlap in the terahertz range which has applicability to LENR. This is not visible light but is arguably "light" in that it can be both photonic and phononic. I guess that is what Richard was refering to. ...and, yes, the same kind of beam-like effect might be possible with phonons- but only in specialized homogenous materials - as air likely would scatter waves too much. Unlike photons, which do not "need" air to propagate, phonons need mass in order to propagate... hey... isn't that why the idea of "aether" originated in the first place? > (legends of acoustic stone levitation not withstanding) ... there may be a grain of truth in many legends, but that one demands a high degree of supension of disbelief. > It might be called an AASER - acoustic amplification (by) > stimulated emission (of phonon) radiation. Needs a better > acronym though. One term now in use is "Saser". This paper calls it a "phaser" but Star Trek got there first on that one: http://arxiv.org/abs/cond-mat/0402640 Jones BTW I posted earlier some ideas on a related issue (LENR) before. Esp in re: the "Letts/Cravens experiment" (which used a laser). The gist of that is a "triple coherency" overlapping range may have special synergy for LENR. The "triple" levels of wave overlap envisions terahertz level waves of: 1) light (photon) 2) sound or heat (phonon) 3) EM (magnetic but not photonic as in a pulsing magnetic field) Actually the last one is a bit confusing - but envisions a static magnetic field which does not change in bulk properties - but which is virtually "pulsed" at the nano-level by 1) and 2) interacting with 3). From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 29 12:07:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jATJ5QRB015767; Tue, 29 Nov 2005 11:09:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jATIBgjU024300; Tue, 29 Nov 2005 10:11:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 10:11:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 13:06:01 -0500 From: hohlrauml6d netscape.net Message-Id: <8C7C326B0BC8AFB-1E50-C3A1 mblkn-m12.sysops.aol.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Did US Oil Really Peak? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.130 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: <8xqldB.A.V7F.anJjDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64640 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Did oil production really peak in 1971. This article and referenced book questions the idea. http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=47618 ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 29 12:14:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jATK26oL016545; Tue, 29 Nov 2005 12:14:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jATJFbx1019605; Tue, 29 Nov 2005 11:15:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 11:15:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=jALR8M0weaoSlxzsFty+797sH2ki6sBY4tfvRfAk7wpuvfadZHAIpgptD1xSE0PQgZEDKWvtpwKcismRVnCv2ziBB99lt80KCQuiUbKh2NkqJfy0FBgSibQwu7TLF8B3LrW3k241WK7sNvGYDyv9XcH3BktUGGnkAfQ7boYRbcU= ; Message-ID: <20051129191405.58205.qmail web32202.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 11:14:05 -0800 (PST) From: Merlyn Subject: Re: Maser To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <000a01c5f49a$5c0660f0$70037841 xptower> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64641 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Sorry RC, but sound is a physical phenomenon, no matter how you slice it. A sound wave is composed of particles oscillating back and forth and transmitting energy in the direction of wave motion by physical collisions. Light is composed of photons (which may or may not be physical) and travels directly. Sure, if you believe in aether theory then light would be similar to sound. However a sonic weapon equivalent to a laser is not possible due to diffraction angles. Sound is NOT light. Light MAY be sound on a different hierarchal scale, but the two points are NOT equivalent. Tom, the sonic equivalent of a laser would be a focused shockwave, but focusing sonic energy like that does not really work. Plus, to really tear stuff up you would need a high-frequency oscillating wave, and the only good way to create a shockwave (bomb) only gives you one wavefront, not the repeated fronts needed. --- RC Macaulay wrote: > Hi Leaking Pen, > Your analogy is only ONE manifestation of sound. > i.e. heat > ----- Original Message ----- > From: leaking pen > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 9:58 PM > Subject: Re: Maser > > > no, sound is particles moving in a wave motion, > and light is a wave motion in its own right. sound > is closer to teh heat generated by shining light on > something. > > > On 11/28/05, RC Macaulay > wrote: > Hi, > Sound is light. Recent experiment demonstrating > that light can be " frozen" > is only one indication. > Richard > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Rick Monteverde" > To: > Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 5:24 PM > Subject: RE: Maser > > > > Aren't phonons the storage of momentum/sound > at the atomic or crystal > > lattice level? And wouldn't they be more or > less in-phase when a bulk > > object resonates at that internal frequency? I > suspect that a "singing > > stone" which has a resonant frequency *not* > dictated by the cut size of > > the stone is just such an animal - a sort of > sound laser. I suspect that > > the acoustic output is ordinary and isn't any > more beam-like than any > > sound at that frequency (legends of acoustic > stone levitation not > > withstanding). It might be called an AASER - > acoustic amplification (by) > > stimulated emission (of phonon) radiation. > Needs a better acronym, > > though. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Robin van Spaandonk > [mailto:rvanspaa bigpond.net.au ] > > Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 11:06 AM > > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > > Subject: Re: Maser > > > > > > In reply to leaking pen's message of Mon, 28 > Nov 2005 12:51:32 > > -0700: > > Hi, > > [snip] > >>no, its a beam of em radiation in the > microwave band similar to a > >>laser. > > > > You missed the "of sound" bit. AFAIK there is > no such thing for sound, > > because there is no way of storing sound > energy at the atomic level, > > hence no inverted populations can be created, > and therefore no > > stimulated emission is possible. > > > >> > >>On 11/28/05, thomas malloy < > temalloy usfamily.net> wrote: > >>> > >>> Is a maser a beam of sound similar to al > laser? > >>> > >>> > >>> --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - > $8.25/mo! -- > >>> http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - > $19.99/mo! --- > >>> > >>> > > Regards, > > > > Robin van Spaandonk > > > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > > > Competition provides the motivation, > > Cooperation provides the means. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I > would give my life to make it possible for you to > continue to write" Voltaire Merlyn Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 29 12:46:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jATKjM6g009569; Tue, 29 Nov 2005 12:45:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jATKivhs009235; Tue, 29 Nov 2005 12:44:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 12:44:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=bvK2ObxD0MjlobAsqIPljoIghAoF1ymvm52qET8HlcLpWsqrOYhtvBIaXURA3wB8K/msB8ecwT8WSy5TkfL8o2+gVwAYenokB+zwN0ZH8ygiVAI9+AGQ+KKqb28FOCMWuLA7ykOw2Kvet6kl1RTI7MofCnst/pQuvPInivsVJFw= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 13:44:25 -0700 From: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Maser In-Reply-To: <20051129191405.58205.qmail web32202.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_8882_30449655.1133297065949" References: <000a01c5f49a$5c0660f0$70037841 xptower> <20051129191405.58205.qmail web32202.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64643 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_8882_30449655.1133297065949 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline danka. On 11/29/05, Merlyn wrote: > > Sorry RC, but sound is a physical phenomenon, no > matter how you slice it. A sound wave is composed of > particles oscillating back and forth and transmitting > energy in the direction of wave motion by physical > collisions. Light is composed of photons (which may > or may not be physical) and travels directly. Sure, > if you believe in aether theory then light would be > similar to sound. However a sonic weapon equivalent > to a laser is not possible due to diffraction angles. > > Sound is NOT light. Light MAY be sound on a different > hierarchal scale, but the two points are NOT > equivalent. > > > Tom, the sonic equivalent of a laser would be a > focused shockwave, but focusing sonic energy like that > does not really work. Plus, to really tear stuff up > you would need a high-frequency oscillating wave, and > the only good way to create a shockwave (bomb) only > gives you one wavefront, not the repeated fronts > needed. > > --- RC Macaulay wrote: > > > Hi Leaking Pen, > > Your analogy is only ONE manifestation of sound. > > i.e. heat > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: leaking pen > > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > > Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 9:58 PM > > Subject: Re: Maser > > > > > > no, sound is particles moving in a wave motion, > > and light is a wave motion in its own right. sound > > is closer to teh heat generated by shining light on > > something. > > > > > > On 11/28/05, RC Macaulay > > wrote: > > Hi, > > Sound is light. Recent experiment demonstrating > > that light can be " frozen" > > is only one indication. > > Richard > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Rick Monteverde" > > To: > > Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 5:24 PM > > Subject: RE: Maser > > > > > > > Aren't phonons the storage of momentum/sound > > at the atomic or crystal > > > lattice level? And wouldn't they be more or > > less in-phase when a bulk > > > object resonates at that internal frequency? I > > suspect that a "singing > > > stone" which has a resonant frequency *not* > > dictated by the cut size of > > > the stone is just such an animal - a sort of > > sound laser. I suspect that > > > the acoustic output is ordinary and isn't any > > more beam-like than any > > > sound at that frequency (legends of acoustic > > stone levitation not > > > withstanding). It might be called an AASER - > > acoustic amplification (by) > > > stimulated emission (of phonon) radiation. > > Needs a better acronym, > > > though. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Robin van Spaandonk > > [mailto:rvanspaa bigpond.net.au ] > > > Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 11:06 AM > > > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > > > Subject: Re: Maser > > > > > > > > > In reply to leaking pen's message of Mon, 28 > > Nov 2005 12:51:32 > > > -0700: > > > Hi, > > > [snip] > > >>no, its a beam of em radiation in the > > microwave band similar to a > > >>laser. > > > > > > You missed the "of sound" bit. AFAIK there is > > no such thing for sound, > > > because there is no way of storing sound > > energy at the atomic level, > > > hence no inverted populations can be created, > > and therefore no > > > stimulated emission is possible. > > > > > >> > > >>On 11/28/05, thomas malloy < > > temalloy usfamily.net> wrote: > > >>> > > >>> Is a maser a beam of sound similar to al > > laser? > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - > > $8.25/mo! -- > > >>> http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - > > $19.99/mo! --- > > >>> > > >>> > > > Regards, > > > > > > Robin van Spaandonk > > > > > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > > > > > Competition provides the motivation, > > > Cooperation provides the means. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > "Monsieur l'abb=E9, I detest what you write, but I > > would give my life to make it possible for you to > > continue to write" Voltaire > > > Merlyn > Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist > > > > __________________________________ > Yahoo! Music Unlimited > Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. > http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ > > -- "Monsieur l'abb=E9, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to ma= ke it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire ------=_Part_8882_30449655.1133297065949 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline danka. 

On 11/29/05, Merlyn <merlyn_3k@yahoo.com<= /a>> wrote:
Sorry RC, but sound is a physica= l phenomenon, no
matter how you slice it.  A sound wave is com= posed of
particles oscillating back and forth and transmitting
energy in the dire= ction of wave motion by physical
collisions.  Light is compose= d of photons (which may
or may not be physical) and travels directly.&nb= sp; Sure,
if you believe in aether theory then light would be
similar to sound.&nb= sp; However a sonic weapon equivalent
to a laser is not possible du= e to diffraction angles.

Sound is NOT light.  Light MAY be= sound on a different
hierarchal scale, but the two points are NOT
equivalent.


= Tom, the sonic equivalent of a laser would be a
focused shockwave, but f= ocusing sonic energy like that
does not really work.  Plus, to= really tear stuff up
you would need a high-frequency oscillating wave, and
the only good = way to create a shockwave (bomb) only
gives you one wavefront, not the r= epeated fronts
needed.

--- RC Macaulay < walhalla cvtv.net> wrote:

> Hi Leaking Pen,
> Your a= nalogy is only ONE manifestation of sound.
> i.e. heat
> &= nbsp; ----- Original Message -----
>   From: leaking pen>   To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>   Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005= 9:58 PM
>   Subject: Re: Maser
>
>
>&nbs= p;  no, sound is particles moving in a wave motion,
> and light = is a wave motion in its own right.  sound
> is closer to teh heat generated by shining light on
> someth= ing.
>
>
>   On 11/28/05, RC Macaulay <walhalla@cvtv.net>
> wrote:>     Hi,
>     Sound is light. Recent experiment demonstr= ating
> that light can be " frozen"
>  &nbs= p;  is only one indication.
>     Richard>     ----- Original Message -----
> &nb= sp;   From: "Rick Monteverde" < rick@highsurf.com>
> = ;    To: <vortex-l= eskimo.com>
>     Sent: Monday, November = 28, 2005 5:24 PM
>     Subject: RE: Maser
>
>
>     > Aren't phonons the st= orage of momentum/sound
> at the atomic or crystal
>  = ;   > lattice level? And wouldn't they be more or
> less= in-phase when a bulk
>     > object resonates= at that internal frequency? I
> suspect that a "singing
>     > = stone" which has a resonant frequency *not*
> dictated by the cu= t size of
>     > the stone is just such an an= imal - a sort of
> sound laser. I suspect that
>     > the acoustic output is ordinary and i= sn't any
> more beam-like than any
>     &g= t; sound at that frequency (legends of acoustic
> stone levitation no= t
>     > withstanding). It might be called an= AASER -
> acoustic amplification (by)
>     > s= timulated emission (of phonon) radiation.
> Needs a better acronym,>     > though.
>    = >
>     > -----Original Message-----
&g= t;     > From: Robin van Spaandonk
> [mailto:rvanspaa@bigpon= d.net.au ]
>     > Sent: Monday, November = 28, 2005 11:06 AM
>     > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
>     > Subject: Re: Maser
> &= nbsp;   >
>     >
> &n= bsp;   > In reply to  leaking pen's message of Mon, = 28
> Nov 2005 12:51:32
>     > -0700:>     > Hi,
>     >= [snip]
>     >>no, its a beam of em radiation in = the
> microwave band similar to a
>     >= ;>laser.
>     >
>   &= nbsp; > You missed the "of sound" bit. AFAIK there is
> = no such thing for sound,
>     > because there is no way of storing so= und
> energy at the atomic level,
>     >= ; hence no inverted populations can be created,
> and therefore no>     > stimulated emission is possible.
>     >
>     >&= gt;
>     >>On 11/28/05, thomas malloy <=
> temalloy@usfamily.net= > wrote:
>     >>>
>  = ;   >>> Is a maser a beam of sound similar to al
> laser?
>     >>>
> &= nbsp;   >>>
>     >>>= --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup= .html -
> $8.25/mo! --
>     >>&g= t;=20 http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.ht= ml -
> $19.99/mo! ---
>     >>>= ;
>     >>>
>   &nb= sp; > Regards,
>     >
>  &= nbsp;  > Robin van Spaandonk
>     >
>     > = http://users.bigpond.net.= au/rvanspaa/
>     >
>  &n= bsp;  > Competition provides the motivation,
>  &nb= sp;  > Cooperation provides the means.
>     >
>     ><= br>>     >
>     >>     >
>     >>
>
>
>
>
>
>   --
>= ;   "Monsieur l'abb=E9, I detest what you write, but I
> would give my life to make it possible for you to
> continue= to write"  Voltaire


Merlyn
Magickal Engineer = and Technical Metaphysicist



________________________________= __
Yahoo! Music Unlimited
Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.
http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/=




--
"Monsi= eur l'abb=E9, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it = possible for you to continue to write"  Voltaire=20 ------=_Part_8882_30449655.1133297065949-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 29 13:01:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jATL0QEP019260; Tue, 29 Nov 2005 13:00:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jATL07Rq018970; Tue, 29 Nov 2005 13:00:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 13:00:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Maser Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 07:59:28 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <001801c5f472$ee1415f0$a501a8c0 dtqf101> <00aa01c5f51f$40632d80$6401a8c0@NuDell> In-Reply-To: <00aa01c5f51f$40632d80$6401a8c0 NuDell> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta03ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.59.28] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Tue, 29 Nov 2005 20:59:27 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id jATKxXvw018420 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64644 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Tue, 29 Nov 2005 11:58:21 -0800: Hi, [snip] > The "triple" levels of wave overlap envisions terahertz level >waves of: >1) light (photon) >2) sound or heat (phonon) If sound and heat are the same phenomenon, then why is the speed with which heat is conducted through a solid so much lower than the speed with which sound is propagated? >3) EM (magnetic but not photonic as in a pulsing magnetic field) > Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 29 13:38:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jATLbhbm017788; Tue, 29 Nov 2005 13:37:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jATLbIWQ017339; Tue, 29 Nov 2005 13:37:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 13:37:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00e301c5f52c$fc5d0d50$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <001801c5f472$ee1415f0$a501a8c0 dtqf101> <00aa01c5f51f$40632d80$6401a8c0@NuDell> Subject: Re: Maser Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 13:36:40 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64645 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin, > If sound and heat are the same phenomenon, then why is the speed > with which heat is conducted through a solid so much lower than > the speed with which sound is propagated? Why would you assume that it is lower? It isn't always. And why would you assume that they are the same? Both are lesser included subsets of "kinetic" wave-forms in matter (phonons), but are different in the details - while they can appear similar in those spectrums where there is overlap. Given that some materials are "sound-proof" but still transfer the kinetic component of heat - the opposite [for speed of transfer] is true for them. "Heat" is normally much higher frequency than sound and applies to both phonon and photon radiation, yet cannot always be heard (unless there is a harmonic below about 18 kHz) - but that does not mean it is always propagated "slower." Sound cannot always be heard but the frequencies of even ultrasound are much longer than "heat". ERGO it is "different" in propagation speed, but not always "slower" due to the fact that heat is broad spectrum, has BOTH kinetic and photonic waves, while sound is narrower spectrum, lower frequency, non-photonic, and often much more intense at any given frequency - and consequently the transfer-medium is more likely to resonate in bulk at that lower frequency, so the apparent speed seems higher - since the wavelength is much longer. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 29 13:48:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jATLlXKD025601; Tue, 29 Nov 2005 13:47:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jATLlM8P025374; Tue, 29 Nov 2005 13:47:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 13:47:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <438CCC10.4000507 pobox.com> Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 16:45:52 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.10) Gecko/20050719 Fedora/1.7.10-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Maser References: <20051129191405.58205.qmail web32202.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20051129191405.58205.qmail web32202.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64646 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Merlyn wrote: >Sorry RC, but sound is a physical phenomenon, no >matter how you slice it. A sound wave is composed of >particles oscillating back and forth and transmitting >energy in the direction of wave motion by physical >collisions. Light is composed of photons (which may >or may not be physical) and travels directly. Sure, >if you believe in aether theory then light would be >similar to sound. > Sound is a longitudinal wave, light is a transverse wave. Quite apart from the issue of the medium, that's a rather significant difference. There's no such thing as a "polarized" sound wave. (Shockwaves in solid media are something else again, of course.) > However a sonic weapon equivalent >to a laser is not possible due to diffraction angles. > >... > >Tom, the sonic equivalent of a laser would be a >focused shockwave, but focusing sonic energy like that >does not really work. Plus, to really tear stuff up >you would need a high-frequency oscillating wave, and >the only good way to create a shockwave (bomb) only >gives you one wavefront, not the repeated fronts >needed. > > Um .... In _air_ it's hard to build a good sound-gun. In _water_ the navy's done it very well, and they use it to kill whales. It's been repeatedly shown to be an effective weapon -- the only problem with it is that we're not (supposed to be) at war with the whales just now. As to difficulties in focusing due to "diffraction angles", that's just an issue with relatively low frequency sound and small radiators. If you're willing to use HF sound and/or a good-sized dish you can focus it quite nicely. With water, beyond a certain intensity cavitation sets in and your beam starts losing power to heat. I don't know if there's an equivalent effect in air. Be that as it may, the receiving end of, say, a 200 decibel focused beam of HF sound would not be a fun place to be. Of course it'll still fall off as 1/n^2 but the "n" won't be distance from the source if it's well focused. Rather, if distance to the source is "r" then I think you'll find the sound should fall off as something like 1/(r+K)^2 for some positive constant K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 29 15:03:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jATN2jZH015137; Tue, 29 Nov 2005 15:03:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jATN2e7F015045; Tue, 29 Nov 2005 15:02:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 15:02:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001601c5f538$ee29fcf0$e8027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Maser Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 17:02:09 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0012_01C5F506.A2F6CF60" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-100.0 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,HTML_40_50,HTML_MESSAGE,RCVD_IN_XBL, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64647 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C5F506.A2F6CF60 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0013_01C5F506.A2F6CF60" ------=_NextPart_001_0013_01C5F506.A2F6CF60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankOne of the joys of the Vorts group is that it is not " tone deaf" < = grin>. The importance of the discussion is that light and sound are = different but connected ( same but different) forms of energy. Physics has been hamstrung way too many years by dogma.=20 By thinking in the realm of sound and light being the same permits one = the opportunity to investigate new forms of energy without the = restraints of dogma. We are all grown boys and girls and can permit " = scientific liscense". After all, writers of fiction make a living using = artistic liscense and call it imagination. However, science is ridiculed = unless the " rules" are rigid and followed. The experiment demonstrating = that light can be " frozen" would make better sense if it were fiction = which only proves that truth is always stranger than fiction. The real joy is involvement with undergraduate engineering students and = their flair for thinking outside the box in today's university labs. = Hard for the profs to keep up with them because they spend time on the = web " imagineering".=20 Most refreshing !! They will likely be the driving force that finally = dislodges the enertia within the university heirarchy that is mindset on = protecting domains. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0013_01C5F506.A2F6CF60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
One of the joys of the Vorts group is that it is not " tone deaf" = <=20 grin>. The importance of the discussion is that light and sound are = different=20 but connected  ( same but different) forms of energy.
 Physics has been hamstrung way too many years by dogma. =
 
By thinking in the realm of sound and light being the same permits = one the=20 opportunity to investigate new forms of energy without the restraints of = dogma.=20 We are all grown boys and girls and can permit " scientific liscense". = After=20 all, writers of fiction make a living using artistic liscense and call = it=20 imagination. However, science is ridiculed unless the " rules" are rigid = and=20 followed. The experiment demonstrating that light can be " frozen" would = make=20 better sense if it were fiction which only proves that truth is always = stranger=20 than fiction.
 
 The real joy is involvement with undergraduate engineering = students=20 and their flair for thinking outside the box in today's university labs. = Hard=20 for the profs to keep up with them because they spend time on the web "=20 imagineering".
Most refreshing !! They will likely be the driving force that = finally=20 dislodges the enertia within the university heirarchy that is mindset on = protecting domains.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0013_01C5F506.A2F6CF60-- ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C5F506.A2F6CF60 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001101c5f538$ed75a110$e8027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C5F506.A2F6CF60-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 29 17:54:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAU1rgaH019271; Tue, 29 Nov 2005 17:53:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAU1re1k019256; Tue, 29 Nov 2005 17:53:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 17:53:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Most Astounding Nobel Prize Ever! X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 8324edccdbae1c0007349b58b3c30403 Reply-To: michael.foster excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20051130015319.64529109F73 xprdmailfe1.nwk.excite.com> Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 20:53:19 -0500 (EST) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64648 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Harry Veeder wrote: > Michael Foster wrote: >> Actually, I think that problem that has sickened science >> is not the craving for certainty. It is the compulsion to >> consensus that has caused the outrageous behavior of the >> "scientific community" toward its greatest innovators. >> Consensus science is, after all, not science. >> >> M. > Should I agree or disagree? > ;-) > Harry LOL, Oh, you are very definitely required to agree. M. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 29 18:06:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAU26Hhf023629; Tue, 29 Nov 2005 18:06:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAU26FB7023578; Tue, 29 Nov 2005 18:06:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 18:06:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <010801c5f552$93434570$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: OT: "All your bases"... Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 18:05:44 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64649 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ...or... "all your freedoms are belong to us..." and as it is a slow day on Vo... On April 1, 2003, in Sturgis, Michigan, seven young guys, not an A-rab amongst-'em, did the almost unspeakable - they placed homemade signs all over little-ville saying: "All your base are belong to us. You have no chance to survive make your time." No misspelling (this time). Never mind that these two sentences above do not make much sense to the English major, and wouldn't give even a milquetoast-pansy-coward-liberal-dove much more than a quiver - except for the little issue of... I-raq. [side note] why do good-ol'-boys isolate and emphasize the opening vowels in such words as Iraq and Arab? Is it an unconscious way of saying this is "too unspeakable to pronounce correctly." Police in Sturgis were fast on the scene and arrested all 7 as potential terrorists. This was serious stuff. Never mind that they missed the significance of the date... and the exceedingly poor grammar. We must uphold the Patriot's act ! Wooo... sounds like real scary terrorism in the heartland right? (well, maybe they should have been charged with muttering the mother-tongue). Local pundits were quick to opine that no further demolition of "Engrish" will be tolerated ;-) Unfortunately, this incident did not turn out to be the abuse that it could have been. Actually, the kids were playing an April Fools joke by mimicking the famous game animation and internet hoopla which ubiquitously depicted the slogan at the time. It even appeared on Vo. However, not many people in Sturgis who saw the graffiti got the joke, even on April-one. A few residents were upset that the signs appeared while the U.S. was "at war," and police chief Eugene Alli [yup Alli] said the signs could be "a borderline terrorist threat depending on what someone interprets it to mean." Ain't Wiki great. They even have an entry now for AYB now: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_your_base_are_belong_to_us The end of November is a celebratory day in certain parts of the world. And the Janus-like seasonal transformation from nice to nauseous, often gets one thinking about other contrasts and self-contradictions. As the other Janis oft-opined, Freedom's just another word for.... "nothing left to loose". What does that mean, exactly, and shouldn't it be "everything" instead of "nothing" left to loose? Other semi-famous November self-contradictions: On November 28 in 1777 - San José (yes, I know the way) became the first recognizable town in the West (the Spanish colony which became California) ... and only 9 months after a famous signing. The "gold rush" of '49 bypassed poor No-Joe, but showed up (with compounded interest) 125 years later- in the form of silicon. Go figure - sand more precious than gold. 1890 - The Diet of Japan (no, not sushi ;-) first met - modeled after the German Reichstag - the start of a misguided half-century friendship. [side note:] Why do people who can make the best cars turn out to be so warlike? Is it as simple as "discipline"... Or is the answer implied in the question? 1947 - The United Nations General Assembly voted to approve the "Partition Plan" for Palestine, a plan to "resolve" the hostility of British Mandate of Palestine. That last November self-contradiction is probably the "nexus" of this entire neo-cynical posting. Why was Palestine so important, that the British did what they did, and so on, and we continued to multiply this error down to today's quagmire in Iraq....? Almost forgot: Liberation Day in Albania... ... which is kind of an off-again, on-again kind of thing. Pretty soon, like all such days, it will deteriorate into Libation-Day. As for Albania - on November 28, 1912: Albania declared its independence from Turkey at the height of the first Balkan War, but lost it in on the same day in 1944 when the communist-led National Liberation Front (NLF) eliminated other smaller, non-communist resistance groups and gained control of the country. Now they are somewhere in between Muslims and Christians, Communists and Free-men. ... are we (USA) on that same course? "Freedom's Just Another Word for Everything to Lose" is a piece Doug Thompson wrote a couple of months ago about the most oxymoronic law in American history - the so-called "Patriot Act". I guess its as patriotic as a Japanese Diet of German Worms. Thompson said "Sometime in the future, when historians write the definitive analysis of the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, they will talk about the day freedom died in America. Freedom took a hit on that day, but it died on the operating table 45 days later - on October 26 - the day Congress passed, without reading, an onerous piece of legislation called the USA Patriot Act... snip... From the ashes of that day rose the Patriot Act, the single-most dangerous piece of legislation ever devised by an American politician, passed by Congress or signed into law by a President. In 342 pages, the act dismantled the Constitution, wiped out due process and eliminated the traditional privacy protections of all Americans. But will the law really last? .... thankfully, probably not long. We are just waiting for the next big abuse before voters toss out this regime and liberalism comes back into vogue. The Sturgis seven was not even close and now Padilla seems to have been de-fused (unless it turns out that the case was as weak as his lawyers are implying). NoWay Jose (Padilla) a U.S. citizen held in a Navy brig as an "enemy combatant" for more than three years, was charged Tuesday with being part of a terror cell with intent to "murder, maim and kidnap." However, absent from the indictment were the sensational allegations made earlier: that Padilla sought to blow up U.S. hotels and apartment buildings and planned an attack on America with a radiological "dirty bomb." Apparently that was little more than bar-room chatter. The actual charges are the latest twist in a case pitting the Bush administration's claim that the war on terrorism gives the government extraordinary powers to protect its citizens, on one side, against those who say the government can't be allowed to label Americans "enemy combatants" and hold them indefinitely without charges that can be fought in court. By charging Padilla, the administration is seeking to avoid another "black eye" showdown over the issue. Jenny Martinez, a Stanford law professor who represents Padilla at the Supreme Court, said, "There's no guarantee the government won't do this again to Mr. Padilla or others. Padilla's appeal argues that the government's evidence "consists of double and triple hearsay" from secret witnesses, self-serving drug-pushers and bar patrons, along with self-contradictory "confessions" obtained under torture from Padilla during his two years of incommunicado interrogation. In an historical context all of this reversal of our hard-fought freedoms seems to run contrary to the ideas of Francis Fukuyama, who theorized in "The End of History and the Last Man" that worldwide democracy is inevitable because of man's natural striving for dignity and liberty. Fukuyama was derided by many historians for his assertion that history is directional, with a progress and a path that can be discerned, and to my thinking he is correct, but the timing and the remnants of world Islamic radicalism has become a compelling - but temporary - alternative ideology to American-style democracy. Janis (and Janus) notwithstanding, freedom and democracy will prevail, but this time it may be "later rather than sooner." Jones Tricultural pun: does "no way san Jose" means "coffee first and ask questions later?" ... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 29 18:13:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAU2CrU9027086; Tue, 29 Nov 2005 18:13:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAU2Cp2u027061; Tue, 29 Nov 2005 18:12:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 18:12:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Maser Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 13:12:30 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <001801c5f472$ee1415f0$a501a8c0 dtqf101> <00aa01c5f51f$40632d80$6401a8c0@NuDell> <00e301c5f52c$fc5d0d50$6401a8c0@NuDell> In-Reply-To: <00e301c5f52c$fc5d0d50$6401a8c0 NuDell> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta01ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.59.28] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Wed, 30 Nov 2005 02:12:28 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id jAU2CXE7026931 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64650 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Tue, 29 Nov 2005 13:36:40 -0800: Hi, [snip] >Robin, > >> If sound and heat are the same phenomenon, then why is the speed >> with which heat is conducted through a solid so much lower than >> the speed with which sound is propagated? > > >Why would you assume that it is lower? It isn't always. Name one solid where this isn't true. > >And why would you assume that they are the same? Misunderstanding. On the previous line they had been grouped together leading me to assume that you meant they were the same phenomenon. I was contesting that notion. However from your question here above, it is apparent that you only grouped them together because both were related to phonons. (BTW I think heat is also related to the free electrons in metals). >Both are lesser >included subsets of "kinetic" wave-forms in matter (phonons), but >are different in the details - while they can appear similar in >those spectrums where there is overlap. > >Given that some materials are "sound-proof" but still transfer the >kinetic component of heat - the opposite [for speed of transfer] >is true for them. I can think of only one somewhat artificial example:- a substance that contains tiny "sonic diodes" which convert sound into a flow of air, thus preventing it from passing in the form of sound. Since such a substance could be made of metal, it would still conduct heat. (BTW this actually exists). However it doesn't really meet my definition above. > >"Heat" is normally much higher frequency than sound and applies to >both phonon and photon radiation, yet cannot always be heard >(unless there is a harmonic below about 18 kHz) - but that does >not mean it is always propagated "slower." Actually, I don't think I've ever heard heat. >Sound cannot always be >heard but the frequencies of even ultrasound are much longer than >"heat". Presumably you meant wavelengths. >ERGO it is "different" in propagation speed, but not >always "slower" due to the fact that heat is broad spectrum, has >BOTH kinetic and photonic waves, while sound is narrower spectrum, >lower frequency, non-photonic, and often much more intense at any >given frequency - and consequently the transfer-medium is more >likely to resonate in bulk at that lower frequency, so the >apparent speed seems higher - since the wavelength is much longer. I suspect it has more to do with the frequencies at which the atoms/molecules within the substance resonate. Where resonance exists, energy is absorbed rather than being passed on, which results in the wave front being slowed. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 29 18:20:54 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAU2JgoU029519; Tue, 29 Nov 2005 18:19:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAU2JeVQ029496; Tue, 29 Nov 2005 18:19:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 18:19:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Maser X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 8324edccdbae1c0007349b58b3c30403 Reply-To: michael.foster excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20051130021921.93599109F43 xprdmailfe1.nwk.excite.com> Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 21:19:21 -0500 (EST) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64651 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: If there is an acoustic equivalent of the laser, that would be the simple whistle. Coherent waves of sound are emitted, capable of many of the same phenomena as coherent light. Constructive and destructive interference can be demonstrated, along with numerous other properties associated with laser light. Of course, this doesn't happen at the atomic or or molecular level, but even so the whistle is "pumped" by a constant air flow resulting in a single frequency of sound being emitted. The whistle itself would be considered to be the "atom". If you've ever blown through one of those ribbed plastic drinking straws and listened to the resulting note, this would be the acoustic equivalent of the free electron laser. It is also not entirely correct to say that light is a transverse wave and sound is a longitudinal wave and therefore sound cannot be polarized. Sound waves can very definitely be polarized in an acoustically anisotropic medium. Just in case no one else brought this up, lasers were referred to as "optical masers" for quite some time, since the maser predated the laser several years. M. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 29 18:23:02 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAU2MXlj030786; Tue, 29 Nov 2005 18:22:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAU2MTcN030733; Tue, 29 Nov 2005 18:22:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 18:22:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Maser Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 13:22:06 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <001601c5f538$ee29fcf0$e8027841 xptower> In-Reply-To: <001601c5f538$ee29fcf0$e8027841 xptower> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta01ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.59.28] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Wed, 30 Nov 2005 02:22:04 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id jAU2M9be030577 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64652 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to RC Macaulay's message of Tue, 29 Nov 2005 17:02:09 -0600: Hi, [snip] >The experiment demonstrating that light can be " frozen" would make better sense if it were fiction which only proves that truth is always stranger than fiction. [snip] Sorry to burst your bubble, but it is actually an SF story ( Light of Other Days) so it does predate the recent "frozen light" experiments. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 29 18:38:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAU2cJ0R005567; Tue, 29 Nov 2005 18:38:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAU2cHcu005549; Tue, 29 Nov 2005 18:38:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 18:38:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Maser Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 13:37:57 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20051130021921.93599109F43 xprdmailfe1.nwk.excite.com> In-Reply-To: <20051130021921.93599109F43 xprdmailfe1.nwk.excite.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta04ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.59.28] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Wed, 30 Nov 2005 02:37:55 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id jAU2c0ZJ005364 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64653 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Michael Foster's message of Tue, 29 Nov 2005 21:19:21 -0500 (EST): Hi, [snip] > >If there is an acoustic equivalent of the laser, >that would be the simple whistle. Coherent waves >of sound are emitted, capable of many of the same >phenomena as coherent light. Constructive and >destructive interference can be demonstrated, along >with numerous other properties associated with laser >light. Largely, I think I have to agree with this. Though I think a wind instrument that produces a pure note would be a better example than a whistle, and I'm still not sure where you are going to get the "stimulated emission" from. > >Of course, this doesn't happen at the atomic or >or molecular level, but even so the whistle is >"pumped" by a constant air flow resulting in a >single frequency of sound being emitted. The >whistle itself would be considered to be the "atom". It does have a resonant cavity in common with the laser. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 29 20:21:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAU4KRqW018298; Tue, 29 Nov 2005 20:20:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAU4KNpW018255; Tue, 29 Nov 2005 20:20:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 20:20:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000c01c5f565$4f70c620$e8027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: OT; "Allyour bases".. Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 22:19:50 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C5F533.03BEA490" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-100.0 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,HTML_50_60,HTML_MESSAGE,RCVD_IN_XBL, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64654 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C5F533.03BEA490 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0009_01C5F533.03BEA490" ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C5F533.03BEA490 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankJones wrote... >Freedom took a hit on that day, but it died on the operating table=20 45 days later - on October 26 - the day Congress passed, without=20 reading, an onerous piece of legislation called the USA Patriot=20 Act... snip... From the ashes of that day rose the Patriot Act,=20 the single-most dangerous piece of legislation ever devised by an=20 American politician, passed by Congress or signed into law by a=20 President. In 342 pages, the act dismantled the Constitution,=20 wiped out due process and eliminated the traditional privacy=20 protections of all Americans. Read this well and over again.. the truth is that it is the truth !! = Without constitutional law , we are reduced to voicelessness. Will congress curtail any of the Patriot Act in the next session.. = Elitist power, once attained, does not surrender easily. Read the = Patriot act and shudder. Scary stuff Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C5F533.03BEA490 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Jones wrote...

>Freedom took a hit on that day, but it died on the operating = table
45=20 days later - on October 26 - the day Congress passed, without =
reading, an=20 onerous piece of legislation called the USA Patriot
Act... snip... = >From the=20 ashes of that day rose the Patriot Act,
the single-most dangerous = piece of=20 legislation ever devised by an
American politician, passed by = Congress or=20 signed into law by a
President. In 342 pages, the act dismantled the = Constitution,
wiped out due process and eliminated the traditional = privacy=20
protections of all Americans.

Read this well and over again.. the truth is that it is the truth !! = Without=20 constitutional law , we are reduced to voicelessness.

Will congress curtail any of the Patriot Act in the next session.. = Elitist=20 power, once attained, does not surrender easily. Read the Patriot act = and=20 shudder. Scary stuff

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C5F533.03BEA490-- ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C5F533.03BEA490 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000701c5f565$4e2fe1b0$e8027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C5F533.03BEA490-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 29 20:36:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAU4ZZoj023540; Tue, 29 Nov 2005 20:35:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAU4ZWZc023522; Tue, 29 Nov 2005 20:35:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 20:35:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001b01c5f567$70f52dc0$e8027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: <001601c5f538$ee29fcf0$e8027841 xptower> Subject: Re: Maser Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 22:35:06 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-100.3 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,RCVD_IN_XBL, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64655 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Robin, Not sure of the humor but here is the link. Fictional accounts did predate the experiment. My old Buck Roger's comic book can attest to that. Richard http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2002/27mar_stoplight.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin van Spaandonk" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2005 8:22 PM Subject: Re: Maser > In reply to RC Macaulay's message of Tue, 29 Nov 2005 17:02:09 > -0600: > Hi, > [snip] >>The experiment demonstrating that light can be " frozen" would make better >>sense if it were fiction which only proves that truth is always stranger >>than fiction. > [snip] > Sorry to burst your bubble, but it is actually an SF story ( > Light of Other Days) so it does predate the recent "frozen light" > experiments. > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > Competition provides the motivation, > Cooperation provides the means. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 29 23:06:02 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAU75VBf008440; Tue, 29 Nov 2005 23:05:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAU72nWW007656; Tue, 29 Nov 2005 23:02:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 23:02:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20051130070221916.DFB7C880008D mwinf3014.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20051130070223.009af254 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 07:02:23 +0000 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Maser Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64656 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:19 pm 29/11/2005 -0500, Michael wrote: ... >It is also not entirely correct to say that light >is a transverse wave and sound is a longitudinal >wave and therefore sound cannot be polarized. Sound >waves can very definitely be polarized in an >acoustically anisotropic medium. Would it also be "not entirely correct to say that" sound is a longitudinal wave and light is a transverse wave and therefore light cannot be propagated longitudinally? Can light waves "very definitely be" propagated longitudinally in a ?????????? medium perhaps? Just asking. 8-) It would be nice to think they could be. Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 30 01:44:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAU8w5Wc022482; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 00:58:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAU8w2xe022445; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 00:58:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 00:58:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: temalloy mail.usfamily.net Message-Id: Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 02:26:02 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Maser Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64657 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Did anyone hear the story about the sailors on the cruise boat who foiled some pirates with a sound cannon? I'm wondering how much the beam attenuated, OTOH, it doesn't take much sonic energy to break your ear drums. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 30 01:44:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAU8wnbi022927; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 00:59:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAU8wj8t022871; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 00:58:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 00:58:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: temalloy mail.usfamily.net Message-Id: Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 02:55:01 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: polonium halos Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64658 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I'm wondering what the existence of the halos means, www.halos.com --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 30 05:46:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAUDjU9l008984; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 05:45:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAUDjRut008965; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 05:45:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 05:45:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=C5A4+awzSBf32ZwVYoVIaVVZ4dTZenT7D+nEnLeev7KLcN5V/3EAGp1Jex2bFE+n+ZdHtS8H5nSfqF0g6NKbQea8eBYXHz5cUFZDBHgTD1FquQ51LRr1RIDGaTyu9HMLt9ZomkLZ+1NZvV2C6pezhx2aa4ofBJqiOQfW+0cjNq8= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 06:45:02 -0700 From: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Maser In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_13090_14226032.1133358302705" References: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64659 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_13090_14226032.1133358302705 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline yes i did. it was a carbide cannon. that is, a replica cannon that gives = a loud noise and burst of smoke, but without the cannonball. they made the attackers think it was a real cannon. On 11/30/05, thomas malloy wrote: > > Did anyone hear the story about the sailors on the cruise boat who > foiled some pirates with a sound cannon? I'm wondering how much the > beam attenuated, OTOH, it doesn't take much sonic energy to break > your ear drums. > > > --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- > http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- > > -- "Monsieur l'abb=E9, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to ma= ke it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire ------=_Part_13090_14226032.1133358302705 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline yes i did.  it was a carbide cannon.  that is, a replica cannon t= hat gives a loud noise and burst of smoke, but without the cannonball. = ; they made the attackers think it was a real cannon.

On 11/30/05, thomas malloy <temalloy@us= family.net> wrote:
Did anyone hear the story about = the sailors on the cruise boat who
foiled some pirates with a sound cann= on? I'm wondering how much the
beam attenuated, OTOH, it doesn't take much sonic energy to break
yo= ur ear drums.


--- ht= tp://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---

<= /div>


--
"Monsieur l'abb=E9, I detest wha= t you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to contin= ue to write"  Voltaire=20 ------=_Part_13090_14226032.1133358302705-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 30 06:17:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAUEH1kR002300; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 06:17:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAUEH008002286; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 06:17:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 06:17:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Message-ID: <438DB44C.1080805 iinet.net.au> Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 01:16:44 +1100 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: polonium halos References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64660 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: > I'm wondering what the existence of the halos means, www.halos.com > > > --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- > http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- > I have known of this work for years and have the book but it's gone missing, should never lend books to anyone! I have corresponded with Dr Gentry on one occasion but I forget why. I have worked with Dr Andrew Snelling who is also mentioned on the site. As the isotopes decay they emit an alpha-particle at velocities that initially prevent it from interacting with the crystal lattice. As the particles slow they interact with the material breaking ionic bonds and leaving a mark. Because the particles are emitted at random from a very small zircon crystal the result is a spherical plane of damage. Since different steps in the decay path give the particles different energies the result is a series of concentric spheres that record the decay path. According to the dominant theories of planetary evolution Polonium halos should never be found alone without other halos corresponding to reactions earlier in the decay sequence from Uranium 238 and Thorium 232 to more stable isotopes. This means the rock dates from the creation week and was created with polonium in it. According to gentry. The debate the web site relates to between Dr Gentry and Dr Snelling is an indication that even if creationism is accepted as true; scientific debate will not stop there. There are interesting debates even within creationism. If Dr Snelling is correct then a Lenr process mid flood would rapidly ‘age’ the isotopes. I’m looking at zircon cold fusion based transmutation Gleeson's work and analysing it in respect to natural zircons. See TJ [means simply Technical Journal] for the latest papers on the subject. http://www.answersingenesis.org/tj/v15/i1/radiohalos.asp This should also help. http://www.answersingenesis.org/Home/Area/faq/dating.asp http://shop4.gospelcom.net/epages/AIGAU.storefront/en/product/10-3-094 This is Snelling’ work mentioned on the site. It covers quite a lot that the likes of Park and Gould don’t want the public to know. Answers In Genesis has thousands of similar peer reviewed papers including one hydrology paper (in TJ) written by me. Is you world view big enough for God? His is big enough for you. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 30 06:42:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAUEg9Dg014014; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 06:42:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAUEfu2S013843; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 06:41:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 06:41:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <438DBA0D.5050808 pobox.com> Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 09:41:17 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.10) Gecko/20050719 Fedora/1.7.10-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT: "All your bases"... References: <010801c5f552$93434570$6401a8c0 NuDell> In-Reply-To: <010801c5f552$93434570$6401a8c0 NuDell> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64661 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > > The end of November is a celebratory day in certain parts of the > world. And the Janus-like seasonal transformation from nice to > nauseous, often gets one thinking about other contrasts and > self-contradictions. As the other Janis oft-opined, Freedom's just > another word for.... "nothing left to loose". > > What does that mean, exactly, and shouldn't it be "everything" instead > of "nothing" left to loose? No, it should not. In fact, between the two versions recorded by Janis Joplin and the Grateful Dead, the line takes three forms, IIRC, but I can only dig two of them out of my memory just now: "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose" and "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to do" Both versions are a comment on the valuelessness of "freedom" from entangling relationships in your personal life, and have nothing to do with "freedom" in the sense of "free speech" or other civil liberties. It's a different kind of "freedom". The point is that if you have your personal "freedom" it means you have no important relationships in your life which you must work to maintain, and you have nothing important which you need to do. In other words, "freedom" is equivalent to being at a loose end. "Freedom" from personal ties is what the singer has left at the end of the song, after Bobby McGee leaves, and it's not worth much. "Freedom" to sing songs the President doesn't like is another kettle of fish entirely, and it's worth a great deal. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 30 08:01:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAUG0xOh025894; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 08:01:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAUG0uIr025866; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 08:00:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 08:00:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001801c5f5c7$2fdc2220$82027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: <2.2.32.20051130070223.009af254 pop.freeserve.net> Subject: Re: Maser Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 10:00:27 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.8 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: <7qmjQC.A.BUG.3ycjDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64662 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Frank, Light waves can be propagated longitudinally when you consider a shadow being cast as a negative of light. Take two spacecraft approaching each other at mach plus in deep space. Each craft is internally lighted and has windows. As the two craft pass closely, several interesting events occur. One event is the light traversing the inside wall across from the window will move at a speed exceeding the speed of the opposing spacecraft that casts the light.. During this event, Einstein's time/ relativity theory goes " out of the window " so to speak. Add for a condition that the two spacecraft are moving at different speeds. While the light wave does not traverse longitudinally, the shadow " negative" can be considered as traveling longitudinally since it moves at a different speed . Brain teaser 101. Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Grimer" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2005 1:02 AM Subject: Re: Maser > At 09:19 pm 29/11/2005 -0500, Michael wrote: > > ... > >>It is also not entirely correct to say that light >>is a transverse wave and sound is a longitudinal >>wave and therefore sound cannot be polarized. Sound >>waves can very definitely be polarized in an >>acoustically anisotropic medium. > > > Would it also be "not entirely correct to say that" > sound is a longitudinal wave and light is a transverse > wave and therefore light cannot be propagated > longitudinally? > > Can light waves "very definitely be" propagated > longitudinally in a ?????????? medium perhaps? > > Just asking. 8-) > > It would be nice to think they could be. > > Frank Grimer > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 30 08:34:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAUGY40B012564; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 08:34:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAUGY18D012511; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 08:34:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 08:34:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003301c5f5cb$cc26aca0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <010801c5f552$93434570$6401a8c0 NuDell> <438DBA0D.5050808@pobox.com> Subject: Re: OT: "All your bases"... Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 08:33:29 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64663 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen L., > No, it should not. In fact, between the two versions recorded > by Janis Joplin and the Grateful Dead, the line takes three > forms, "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose" > and "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to do" Ah... It is refreshing to notice that there are others (who have scientific interests as well) who pay attention to the subtleties of popular music - which like it or not - has supplanted much of the traditional poet's (prior) literary function. In the big-picture, this is perhaps another facet of "multi-tasking." Who reads "just" poetry any more (besides other poets)? I like poetry, and rue the fact that - to pry it out of popular music, is not a high probability prospect. But the imperative of multi-tasking in all aspects of life- seems to demand that several art-forms must be combined these days, and the music video is the possible answer to getting an extra one or two more of these various art-mediums together for mass consumption. At the last poetry reading I attended, there were maybe three other souls, myself being the only one who was not family-related. So afterwards, when the bar actually opened, they turned on MTV and almost like magic - many others filed in. This was not overlooked by the poet. And to be honest, it is probably true that due to the indulgent lifestyles of the artists involved in popular music, that they are largely unaware of the deep issues which their words (sound bytes) sometimes dredge up. The two artists you mention went into "early forced retirement" - perhaps because of such indulgences. And lest it go unnoticed, my inadvertent use of "loose" for "lose" (as pointed out by my technical editor down-under in Oz) turned out to be an unintended pun, adding another layer of poetic-malapropism-not to "what freedom rings"... ;-) Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 30 09:25:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAUHPMQt009139; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 09:25:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAUHPJwr009088; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 09:25:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 09:25:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20051130172452277.439E01C03653 mwinf3104.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20051130172453.009b8f8c pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 17:24:53 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Maser Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64664 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:00 am 30/11/2005 -0600, Richard wrote: >Hi Frank, >Light waves can be propagated longitudinally when you consider a shadow >being cast as a negative of light. Take two spacecraft approaching each >other at mach plus in deep space. Each craft is internally lighted and has >windows. As the two craft pass closely, several interesting events occur. >One event is the light traversing the inside wall across from the window >will move at a speed exceeding the speed of the opposing spacecraft that >casts the light.. During this event, Einstein's time/ relativity theory goes >" out of the window " so to speak. Add for a condition that the two >spacecraft are moving at different speeds. While the light wave does not >traverse longitudinally, the shadow " negative" can be considered as >traveling longitudinally since it moves at a different speed . Brain teaser >101. >Richard Anything which sends Albert ("and all his works, and all his pomps") out the window can't be all bad. Better still if he had been born to Mrs.Ramsbottom as show by the poem below [for the benefit of JCB who I I propose for the post of Resident Poet Laureate. 8-) ] ---------------------- 'The Lion and Albert'. ---------------------- There's a famous seaside place called Blackpool That's noted for fresh air and fun And Mr. and Mrs.Ramsbottom Went there with young Albert, their son. A fine little lad were young Albert, All dressed in his best, quite a swell. He'd a stick with an 'orse's 'ead 'andle; The finest that Woolworth's could sell. They didn't think much to the ocean, The waves they were piddlin' and small. There were no wrecks and nobody drownded, 'Fact, nothin' to laugh at at all! So, seeking for further amusement, They paid, and went into the zoo, Where they'd lions and tigers and camels And cold ale and sandwiches, too. There were one great big lion called Wallace Whose nose was all covered with scars; He lay in a som-no-lent posture With the side of 'is face on the bars. Now Albert 'ad 'eard about lions- 'Ow they was ferocious and wild; To see lion lyin' so peaceful Just didn't seem right to the child. So straightway the brave little feller, Not showin' a morsel of fear, Took 'is stick with the 'orse's 'ead 'andle And stuck it in Wallace's ear. You could see that the lion din't like it, For givin' a kind of a roll, 'E pulled Albert inside the cage with 'im And swallered the little lad - 'ole! Now Mother 'ad seen this occurrence, And not knowin' what to do next, She 'ollered "Yon lion's et Albert!" An' Father said "Ee, I am vexed." They complained to an animal keeper Who said "My, wot a nasty mis'ap; Are you sure it's your boy 'e's eaten?" Pa said, "Am I sure? There's 'is cap!" The manager 'ad to be sent for; 'E came and 'e said "Wot's to-do?" Ma said "Yon lion's et Albert, And 'im in 'is Sunday clothes, too!" Father said "Right's right, young feller- I think it's a shame and a sin To 'ave our son et by a lion And after we paid to come in." The manager wanted no trouble; He took out his purse right away, Sayin' "'Ow much to settle the matter?" Pa said "Wot do you usually pay?" But Mother 'ad turned a bit awkward When she saw where 'er Albert 'ad gone. She said "No, someone's got to be summonsed!" So that was decided upon. The Magistrate gave 'is opinion That no one was really to blame, And 'e said that 'e 'oped the Ramsbottoms Would 'ave further sons to their name. At that Mother got proper blazin': "And thank you, sir, kindly," said she- "Wot, spend all our lives raisin' children To feed ruddy lions? Not me!" ---------------------- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 30 10:21:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAUIKoaD007922; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 10:21:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAUIKn92007895; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 10:20:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 10:20:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 13:21:02 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: polonium halos In-reply-to: <438DB44C.1080805 iinet.net.au> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64665 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Wesley Bruce wrote: > Is you world view big enough for God? His is big enough for you. > An atheist would interpret this as a personal request. Based on his beliefs you are asking him if his world is big enough for you. If the atheist has a big heart he would say yes. Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 30 10:41:01 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAUIeHdY018863; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 10:40:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAUIeD2D018825; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 10:40:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 10:40:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 13:40:23 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: OT: Secrets of bee flight revealed To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id jAUIdkvQ018580 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64666 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A This article was brought to my attention on another list. I thought it would be of interest to those who followed the vortex discussion on humming bird flight earlier this year. BTW, the article mentions "added-mass force". Does anyone know what that means? Harry Secrets of bee flight revealed http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn8382 16:57 28 November 2005 NewScientist.com news service Helen Phillips Combining robotic modelling with slow-motion videos of airborne honeybees may have helped researchers explain the curious aerodynamics of bee flight. Aeronautical engineers had previously ³proven² that bees cannot fly. So Michael Dickinson, an insect flight expert and colleagues at Caltech in Pasadena, California, US, decided to investigate the forces actually at work during honeybee flight. In 1996, Charlie Ellington at Cambridge University, UK, showed how vortices rolling along the leading edge of many insects¹ wings were a vital source of lift. Most flying insects beat their wings in large strokes ­ typically flapping in arcs of 145° to 165° at a frequency determined by body size ­ to generate aerodynamic forces sufficient for flight. But this cannot explain how a heavy insect with a short wing beat, such as a bee, generates enough lift to fly. Exotic forces Dickinson and his colleagues filmed hovering bees at 6000 frames per second, and plotted the unusual pattern of wing beats. The wing sweeps back in a 90š arc, then flips over as it returns ­ an incredible 230 times a second. The team made a robot to scale to measure the forces involved. See a video of a bee in a flap, here (5MB, .avi format). It is the more exotic forces created as the wing changes direction that dominate, says Dickinson. Additional vortices are produced by the rotation of the wing. ³It¹s like a propeller, where the blade is rotating too,² he says. Also, the wing flaps back into its own wake, which leads to higher forces than flapping in still air. Lastly, there is another peculiar force known as ³added-mass force² which peaks at the ends of each stroke and is related to acceleration as the wings¹ direction changes. The work may help engineers design rotating propellers or more stable and manoeuvrable aircraft. But ³it proves bees can fly, thank God², adds Dickinson. Journal reference: Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (DOI: 10.1073_pnas.0506590102) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 30 11:28:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAUJRY4Q010389; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 11:27:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAUJRXBw010371; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 11:27:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 11:27:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20051130192701265.067221C000FD mwinf3003.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20051130192702.009b3fc0 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 19:27:02 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: OT: Secrets of bee flight revealed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64667 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A At 01:40 pm 30/11/2005 -0500, Harry wrote: > This article was brought to my attention on another list. > I thought it would be of interest to those who followed > the vortex discussion on humming bird flight earlier this year. > > BTW, the article mentions "added-mass force". Does anyone > know what that means? "Added mass is the weight added to a system due to the fact that an accelerating or decelerating body must move some volume of surrounding fluid with it as it moves. The added mass force opposes the motion, and acts as a kind of drag force. Not to be confused with relativistic mass increase." Ain't Wiki wonderful 8-) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 30 13:46:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAULk9q9022440; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 13:46:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAULk1W4022362; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 13:46:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 13:46:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 16:45:31 -0500 From: hohlrauml6d netscape.net Message-Id: <8C7C40E855486A9-170C-9A37 mblkn-m10.sysops.aol.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Controlled Auto-Ignition Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.74 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64668 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: And you thought spark-knock was a bad thing: http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/10/honda_making_si.html 70 mpg hybrid . . . now that could be cost-effective. ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 30 13:56:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAULtjBG026773; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 13:56:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAULtaGi026679; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 13:55:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 13:55:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 16:55:37 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: OT: Secrets of bee flight revealed In-reply-to: <2.2.32.20051130192702.009b3fc0 pop.freeserve.net> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64669 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Grimer wrote: > At 01:40 pm 30/11/2005 -0500, Harry wrote: > >> This article was brought to my attention on another list. >> I thought it would be of interest to those who followed >> the vortex discussion on humming bird flight earlier this year. >> >> BTW, the article mentions "added-mass force". Does anyone >> know what that means? > > > > "Added mass is the weight added to a system due > to the fact that an accelerating or decelerating > body must move some volume of surrounding fluid > with it as it moves. The added mass force opposes > the motion, and acts as a kind of drag force. > > Not to be confused with relativistic mass increase." > > Ain't Wiki wonderful 8-) > > If you really look at it closely it sounds like a mathematical trick which makes the mathematical predictions consistent with experiment. In newtonian mechanics you can't add mass to a system unless it is done by adding a force first. If there is literally no new mass then it is just an old fashioned drag or a lift force. So either we ( the royal we) really mean NEW mass or we mean old force by a new name. Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 30 13:57:42 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAULukrA027294; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 13:57:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAULugRM027260; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 13:56:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 13:56:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: "Rick Monteverde" To: Subject: RE: Secrets of bee flight revealed Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 11:55:52 -1000 Message-ID: <001301c5f5f8$da6b0b30$b401a8c0 dtqf101> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - server26.fastbighost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - highsurf.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id jAULuLvk027011 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64670 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Conceptually that means more stuff to push off of. These kinds of wings create vortices of air which feature increased mass and resistance to downward/rearward movement than a similar surface would encounter while slicing through the medium in a more laminar mode. Probably get increased stability too. -----Original Message----- From: Harry Veeder [mailto:eo200 freenet.carleton.ca] Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2005 8:40 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: OT: Secrets of bee flight revealed This article was brought to my attention on another list. I thought it would be of interest to those who followed the vortex discussion on humming bird flight earlier this year. BTW, the article mentions "added-mass force". Does anyone know what that means? Harry Secrets of bee flight revealed http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn8382 16:57 28 November 2005 NewScientist.com news service Helen Phillips Combining robotic modelling with slow-motion videos of airborne honeybees may have helped researchers explain the curious aerodynamics of bee flight. Aeronautical engineers had previously ³proven² that bees cannot fly. So Michael Dickinson, an insect flight expert and colleagues at Caltech in Pasadena, California, US, decided to investigate the forces actually at work during honeybee flight. In 1996, Charlie Ellington at Cambridge University, UK, showed how vortices rolling along the leading edge of many insects¹ wings were a vital source of lift. Most flying insects beat their wings in large strokes ­ typically flapping in arcs of 145° to 165° at a frequency determined by body size ­ to generate aerodynamic forces sufficient for flight. But this cannot explain how a heavy insect with a short wing beat, such as a bee, generates enough lift to fly. Exotic forces Dickinson and his colleagues filmed hovering bees at 6000 frames per second, and plotted the unusual pattern of wing beats. The wing sweeps back in a 90Å¡ arc, then flips over as it returns ­ an incredible 230 times a second. The team made a robot to scale to measure the forces involved. See a video of a bee in a flap, here (5MB, .avi format). It is the more exotic forces created as the wing changes direction that dominate, says Dickinson. Additional vortices are produced by the rotation of the wing. ³It¹s like a propeller, where the blade is rotating too,² he says. Also, the wing flaps back into its own wake, which leads to higher forces than flapping in still air. Lastly, there is another peculiar force known as ³added-mass force² which peaks at the ends of each stroke and is related to acceleration as the wings¹ direction changes. The work may help engineers design rotating propellers or more stable and manoeuvrable aircraft. But ³it proves bees can fly, thank God², adds Dickinson. Journal reference: Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (DOI: 10.1073_pnas.0506590102) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 30 14:09:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAUM8bVp001192; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 14:08:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAUM8YcJ001152; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 14:08:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 14:08:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 17:08:08 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7C411AE0D6AE1-170C-9B16 mblkn-m10.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d netscape.net References: <8C7C40E855486A9-170C-9A37 mblkn-m10.sysops.aol.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <8C7C40E855486A9-170C-9A37 mblkn-m10.sysops.aol.com> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: Controlled Auto-Ignition Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.74 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64671 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Also called homogeneous charge compression ignition. Here, this site has pictures: http://www.hybridcars.com/blogs/hyview/hcci -----Original Message----- From: hohlrauml6d netscape.net To: vortex-l eskimo.com Sent: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 16:45:31 -0500 Subject: Controlled Auto-Ignition ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 30 15:53:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jAUNqphN017365; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 15:53:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jAUNqmVk017335; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 15:52:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 15:52:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 18:52:27 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Secrets of bee flight revealed In-reply-to: <001301c5f5f8$da6b0b30$b401a8c0 dtqf101> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64672 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: The article mentions the forces provided by the vortices...but the origin of the "added-mass force" is not explained. quote: > Lastly, there is another peculiar force known as > added-mass force which peaks at the ends of each stroke and is related to > acceleration as the wings direction changes. Harry Rick Monteverde wrote: > Conceptually that means more stuff to push off of. > > These kinds of wings create vortices of air which feature increased mass and > resistance to downward/rearward movement than a similar surface would > encounter while slicing through the medium in a more laminar mode. Probably > get increased stability too. > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 30 18:35:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jB12ZPG0014957; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 18:35:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jB12ZNNq014933; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 18:35:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 18:35:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <438E6153.70003 pobox.com> Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 21:34:59 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.10) Gecko/20050719 Fedora/1.7.10-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT: "All your bases"... References: <010801c5f552$93434570$6401a8c0 NuDell> <438DBA0D.5050808@pobox.com> <003301c5f5cb$cc26aca0$6401a8c0@NuDell> In-Reply-To: <003301c5f5cb$cc26aca0$6401a8c0 NuDell> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64673 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > Stephen L., > >> No, it should not. In fact, between the two versions recorded by >> Janis Joplin and the Grateful Dead, the line takes three forms, >> "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose" and "Freedom's >> just another word for nothing left to do" > > > Ah... It is refreshing to notice that there are others (who have > scientific interests as well) who pay attention to the subtleties of > popular music - which like it or not - has supplanted much of the > traditional poet's (prior) literary function. In the big-picture, > this is perhaps another facet of "multi-tasking." > > Who reads "just" poetry any more (besides other poets)? > > I like poetry, and rue the fact that - to pry it out of popular music, > is not a high probability prospect. But the imperative of > multi-tasking in all aspects of life- seems to demand that several > art-forms must be combined these days, and the music video is the > possible answer to getting an extra one or two more of these various > art-mediums together for mass consumption. > > At the last poetry reading I attended, there were maybe three other > souls, myself being the only one who was not family-related. So > afterwards, when the bar actually opened, they turned on MTV and > almost like magic - many others filed in. This was not overlooked by > the poet. > > And to be honest, it is probably true that due to the indulgent > lifestyles of the artists involved in popular music, that they are > largely unaware of the deep issues which their words (sound bytes) > sometimes dredge up. The two artists you mention went into "early > forced retirement" - perhaps because of such indulgences. Time for another nit! Janis did, of course. Jerry Garcia did too, more's the pity, but ... he didn't wasn't the lead singer on Me and Bobby McGee. That was Bob Weir, who last I heard was still performing. > > And lest it go unnoticed, my inadvertent use of "loose" for "lose" (as > pointed out by my technical editor down-under in Oz) turned out to be > an unintended pun, adding another layer of poetic-malapropism-not to > "what freedom rings"... ;-) > > Jones > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 30 21:24:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jB15NVqs015726; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 21:23:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jB15NUct015705; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 21:23:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 21:23:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Message-ID: <438E887F.9070708 iinet.net.au> Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 16:22:07 +1100 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: polonium halos References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64674 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harry Veeder wrote: >Wesley Bruce wrote: > > > > >>Is you world view big enough for God? His is big enough for you. >> >> >> > > >An atheist would interpret this as a personal request. Based on his beliefs >you are asking him if his world is big enough for you. If the atheist >has a big heart he would say yes. > >Harry > > > Well said Harry. If an atheist doesn't try to kill my rights to my faith or ban me from speaking then he or she is OK and free to have their choice of faith. Yet on their dieing the true test begins and the question of absolute truth or absolute oblivion is faced. The scientist Pascal was asked of his faith. He answered with a wager. See http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/pascal-wager/ I'll pluck a table from the site. Following McClennen 1994, Pascal's argument seems to be best captured as presenting the following decision matrix: /*God exists*/ /*God does not exist*/ /*Wager for God*/ Gain all Status quo /*Wager against God*/ Misery Status quo In other words * If I believe in God and I am right what do I gain? All the pleasures of eternity. * If I am wrong what do I loose? A few passing pleasures and then oblivion. * If I disbelieve in God and there is life after death and some judgement. What do I loose. Everything when I discover that I will be held responsible for my actions up to the extent of my knowledge. God honours my demand for his absence, and creates a place where he is not found and I then discover that the simple absence of God is hell itself and it is awful indeed for he is the source of unselfish goodness. * If I disbelieve in God and there is no life after death, what do I gain. Nothing of great value. A fleeting sense of freedom and then oblivion. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 30 21:38:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jB15bhxc020723; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 21:37:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jB15bdsu020686; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 21:37:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 21:37:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 00:37:36 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: polonium halos In-reply-to: <438E887F.9070708 iinet.net.au> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <1ccwe.A.JDF.jwojDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64675 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Must an Atheist believe in oblivion after death if he doesn't believe in God? Harry Wesley Bruce wrote: > Harry Veeder wrote: > >> Wesley Bruce wrote: >> >> >> >> >>> Is you world view big enough for God? His is big enough for you. >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> An atheist would interpret this as a personal request. Based on his beliefs >> you are asking him if his world is big enough for you. If the atheist >> has a big heart he would say yes. >> >> Harry >> >> >> > Well said Harry. If an atheist doesn't try to kill my rights to my faith > or ban me from speaking then he or she is OK and free to have their > choice of faith. > Yet on their dieing the true test begins and the question of absolute > truth or absolute oblivion is faced. > The scientist Pascal was asked of his faith. He answered with a wager. > See http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/pascal-wager/ > I'll pluck a table from the site. > Following McClennen 1994, Pascal's argument seems to be best captured as > presenting the following decision matrix: > > > > > > /*God exists*/ > > > > /*God does not exist*/ > > /*Wager for God*/ > > > > Gain all > > > > Status quo > > /*Wager against God*/ > > > > Misery > > > > Status quo > > > > > > In other words > > * If I believe in God and I am right what do I gain? All the > pleasures of eternity. > > * If I am wrong what do I loose? A few passing pleasures and then > oblivion. > > * If I disbelieve in God and there is life after death and some > judgement. What do I loose. Everything when I discover that I will > be held responsible for my actions up to the extent of my > knowledge. God honours my demand for his absence, and creates a > place where he is not found and I then discover that the simple > absence of God is hell itself and it is awful indeed for he is the > source of unselfish goodness. > > * If I disbelieve in God and there is no life after death, what do I > gain. Nothing of great value. A fleeting sense of freedom and then > oblivion. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 30 21:51:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jB15p2ae024880; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 21:51:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jB15p0EU024852; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 21:51:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 21:51:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 00:50:57 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: OT: Excerpt from "The Goal of Human Existence" In-reply-to: To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64676 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Excerpt from: "The Goal of Human Existence" Source: Broadcast on behalf of the United Jewish Appeal, November 4, 1943 Sound Recording as MP3 file http://www.albert-einstein.org/sound7.html "Ladies and gentlemen, our age is proud of the progress it has made in man's intellectual development. The search and striving for truth and knowledge is one of the highest of man's qualities - though often, the pride is most loudly voiced by those who strive the least. And certainly we should take care not to make the intellect our god; it has, of course, powerful muscles, but no personality. It cannot lead, it can only serve; and it is not fastidious in its choice of a leader. This characteristic is reflected in the qualities of its priests, the intellectuals. The intellect has a sharp eye for methods and tools, but is blind to ends and values. So it is no wonder that this fatal blindness is handed on from old to young and today involves a whole generation." From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 30 21:55:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jB15tLeZ026153; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 21:55:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jB15tIZ6026121; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 21:55:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 21:55:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Message-ID: <438E9034.2020305 iinet.net.au> Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 16:55:00 +1100 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: polonium halos -Now OT References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <2WWXdC.A.FYG.GBpjDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64677 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Very good question! What alternatives are consistant with Atheism? Send to my home address if you choose not to clutter Vortex. PS sorry the table did not come out right. Harry Veeder wrote: >Must an Atheist believe in oblivion after death >if he doesn't believe in God? > >Harry > >Wesley Bruce wrote: > > > >>Harry Veeder wrote: >> >> >> >>>Wesley Bruce wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>Is you world view big enough for God? His is big enough for you. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>An atheist would interpret this as a personal request. Based on his beliefs >>>you are asking him if his world is big enough for you. If the atheist >>>has a big heart he would say yes. >>> >>>Harry >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>Well said Harry. If an atheist doesn't try to kill my rights to my faith >>or ban me from speaking then he or she is OK and free to have their >>choice of faith. >>Yet on their dieing the true test begins and the question of absolute >>truth or absolute oblivion is faced. >>The scientist Pascal was asked of his faith. He answered with a wager. >>See http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/pascal-wager/ >>I'll pluck a table from the site. >>Following McClennen 1994, Pascal's argument seems to be best captured as >>presenting the following decision matrix: >> >> >> >> >> >>/*God exists*/ >> >> >> >>/*God does not exist*/ >> >>/*Wager for God*/ >> >> >> >>Gain all >> >> >> >>Status quo >> >>/*Wager against God*/ >> >> >> >>Misery >> >> >> >>Status quo >> >> >> >> >> >>In other words >> >>* If I believe in God and I am right what do I gain? All the >>pleasures of eternity. >> >>* If I am wrong what do I loose? A few passing pleasures and then >>oblivion. >> >>* If I disbelieve in God and there is life after death and some >>judgement. What do I loose. Everything when I discover that I will >>be held responsible for my actions up to the extent of my >>knowledge. God honours my demand for his absence, and creates a >>place where he is not found and I then discover that the simple >>absence of God is hell itself and it is awful indeed for he is the >>source of unselfish goodness. >> >>* If I disbelieve in God and there is no life after death, what do I >>gain. Nothing of great value. A fleeting sense of freedom and then >>oblivion. >> >> >> >> > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 30 22:24:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jB16OKvP003798; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 22:24:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jB16OJ9i003789; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 22:24:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 22:24:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 01:24:14 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: polonium halos -Now OT In-reply-to: <438E9034.2020305 iinet.net.au> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <7iD_eB.A.F7.ScpjDB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64678 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I don't know what could be considered consistent with Atheism since there is no definitive text for Atheists. Harry Wesley Bruce wrote: > Very good question! What alternatives are consistant with Atheism? Send > to my home address if you choose not to clutter Vortex. > PS sorry the table did not come out right. > Harry Veeder wrote: > >> Must an Atheist believe in oblivion after death >> if he doesn't believe in God? >> >> Harry >> >> Wesley Bruce wrote: >> >> >> >>> Harry Veeder wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> Wesley Bruce wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Is you world view big enough for God? His is big enough for you. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> An atheist would interpret this as a personal request. Based on his beliefs >>>> you are asking him if his world is big enough for you. If the atheist >>>> has a big heart he would say yes. >>>> >>>> Harry >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Well said Harry. If an atheist doesn't try to kill my rights to my faith >>> or ban me from speaking then he or she is OK and free to have their >>> choice of faith. >>> Yet on their dieing the true test begins and the question of absolute >>> truth or absolute oblivion is faced. >>> The scientist Pascal was asked of his faith. He answered with a wager. >>> See http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/pascal-wager/ >>> I'll pluck a table from the site. >>> Following McClennen 1994, Pascal's argument seems to be best captured as >>> presenting the following decision matrix: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> /*God exists*/ >>> >>> >>> >>> /*God does not exist*/ >>> >>> /*Wager for God*/ >>> >>> >>> >>> Gain all >>> >>> >>> >>> Status quo >>> >>> /*Wager against God*/ >>> >>> >>> >>> Misery >>> >>> >>> >>> Status quo >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> In other words >>> >>> * If I believe in God and I am right what do I gain? All the >>> pleasures of eternity. >>> >>> * If I am wrong what do I loose? A few passing pleasures and then >>> oblivion. >>> >>> * If I disbelieve in God and there is life after death and some >>> judgement. What do I loose. Everything when I discover that I will >>> be held responsible for my actions up to the extent of my >>> knowledge. God honours my demand for his absence, and creates a >>> place where he is not found and I then discover that the simple >>> absence of God is hell itself and it is awful indeed for he is the >>> source of unselfish goodness. >>> >>> * If I disbelieve in God and there is no life after death, what do I >>> gain. Nothing of great value. A fleeting sense of freedom and then >>> oblivion. >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 30 22:43:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jB16gecM010333; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 22:42:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jB16gcJA010293; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 22:42:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 22:42:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 01:42:29 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: polonium halos -Now OT In-reply-to: To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64679 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > Wesley Bruce wrote: > >> Very good question! What alternatives are consistant with Atheism? Send >> to my home address if you choose not to clutter Vortex. >> PS sorry the table did not come out right. >> Harry Veeder wrote: >> You may like to read this book. _Can We Be Good Without God?_ by Robert Buckman. I haven't read it, but I saw the author interviewed on TV. Here is a book review: http://atheism.about.com/library/books/full/aafprGoodWithoutGod.htm Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 30 23:46:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jB17jkvr002885; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 23:46:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id jB17jfZW002852; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 23:45:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 23:45:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: temalloy mail.usfamily.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <8C7C40E855486A9-170C-9A37 mblkn-m10.sysops.aol.com> References: <8C7C40E855486A9-170C-9A37 mblkn-m10.sysops.aol.com> Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 01:45:09 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: Controlled Auto-Ignition Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/64680 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Vortexians; Some wag who writes for the Wall Street Journal, wrote an article as though he were Toyota. The article ended by expressing the Company's appreciation for the Prius' customers being willing to spend $9500 up front, to save $550 per year in gas. I'm thinking that this figure doesn't include batteries. Your comments please. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---