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Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 19:00:03 +1100
From: Wesley Bruce <wesleybruce iinet.net.au>
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: polonium halos -Now OT
References: <BFB40585.FF3E%eo200 ncf.ca>
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Harry Veeder wrote:

>  
>
>>Wesley Bruce wrote:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>Very good question! What alternatives are consistant with Atheism? Send
>>>to my home address if you choose not to clutter Vortex.
>>>PS sorry the table did not come out right.
>>>Harry Veeder wrote:
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>
>
>You may like to read this book.
>
>_Can We Be Good Without God?_
>by Robert Buckman.
>
>I haven't read it, but I saw the author interviewed on TV.
>
>Here is a book review:
>http://atheism.about.com/library/books/full/aafprGoodWithoutGod.htm
>
>Harry
>
>  
>
Thanks Harry that wil be useful.

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From: OrionWorks <orionworks charter.net>
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Subject: Re: polonium halos, now extreemly OT
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> From: Wesley Bruce <wesleybruce iinet.net.au>

I'm an individual who possess the sense that there is something greater than my current awareness of myself.

With that premise revealed, I'd like to contribute the following comments to this discussion line:

...

> Well said Harry. If an atheist doesn't try to kill my
> rights to my faith or ban me from speaking then he or
> she is OK and free to have their choice of faith.
> Yet on their dieing the true test begins and the
> question of absolute truth or absolute oblivion is faced.
> The scientist Pascal was asked of his faith. He answered
> with a wager.
> See http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/pascal-wager/
> I'll pluck a table from the site.
> Following McClennen 1994, Pascal's argument seems to be
> best captured as presenting the following decision
> matrix:
> 
> /*God exists*/
> 
> /*God does not exist*/
> 
> /*Wager for God*/
> 
> Gain all
> 
> Status quo
> 
> /*Wager against God*/

What the hell does "wager against God" mean? Wanton debauchery? Crime? Murder? Anarchy? Total Selfishness????

> Misery

Seems to me that's what most most ardent believers who subscribe to the view of stern and vengful God believe.

The "Take no prisoners" scenario.

That's not a Boss I'd like to work for.

> Status quo
> 
> In other words
> 
>   * If I believe in God and I am right what do I gain? 
>     All the pleasures of eternity.

Seems to me it's going to take a lot more than simply believing in God and being "right" before one gets a free pass through the pearly gates.

>  * If I am wrong what do I loose? A few passing
>    pleasures and then oblivion.

This seems to imply that if one doesn't believe in God then God will ultimately punish the poor fool by snuffing out his existence for the rest of eternity - that is after he dies and suddenly realizes he ain't dead, that is if he gets the chance to realize that NOW he REALLY IS going to be snuffed out for the rest of eternity by a vengful God.

Does God really have that much of a bruised ego to contend with that he/she would behave in such a cruel or cavalier manner with his creations?

>  * If I disbelieve in God and there is life after
>    death and some judgement. What do I loose.
>    Everything when I discover that I will
>    be held responsible for my actions up to the
>    extent of my knowledge. God honours my demand
>    for his absence, and creates a place where he
>    is not found and I then discover that the simple
>    absence of God is hell itself and it is awful
>    indeed for he is the source of unselfish goodness. 

IOW, to believe in God means you better believe in God because he will get even with all of his creations that make the terrible mistake of not believing in God.

Most atheists I've met object strongly to the "judgment" scenario. Many detest it because, ironically, it has little to do with a so-call Divine Providence but rather see it as a despicable human contrived mechanism primarily designed to keep the flock in line. 

Most atheists I've met often tend to be the most ethically behaved people on the planet. Most atheist I've met believe in the fact that they personally MUST behave responsibly precisely because nobody else will hold them responsible for their actions but themselves. The realize we often tend to be our most harsh critics. (Many in 12 step programs know that all too well.)

A lot of atheists I've met seem to believe that if there is no God to keep the flock in line, it really is up to them to make the world a better place in which to live in for themselves and their progeny. The sobering realization for many atheists is: There ain't no Calvary that will come swooping down in the nick of time to fix all the misdeeds created by evildoers, so I better get on with it and do it myself.

On top of that most atheists I know seem to believe that when they die...they die. There's nothing in it for themselves, no personal reward for behaving correctly, nothing other than the personal satisfaction of knowing that they helped make the world a better place in which to live in than what it was before they were born into it.

Pretty selfless actions, if you ask me.

So, to "disbelieve in God" - is it really such a terrible belief to subscribe to?


>  * If I disbelieve in God and there is no life
>    after death, what do I gain. Nothing of great
>    value. A fleeting sense of freedom and then
>    oblivion.

Ya know, why don't we turn the tables here for a second. What happens if one dies and suddenly discovers that they can't locate "God" anywhere, or at least the "God" they were hoping to meet in the afterworld?

What is one going to do with the rest of their eternity? Feel pissed off. Cheated?

PS: In all candor, personally, I tend to believe in the existence of a Greater Awareness than myself, one that is compassionate enough to allow me to make a total fool of myself - because she realizes that's how we evolve, by learning the lessons of our own mistakes. She is wise enough to realize that those lessons can't be carved in stone as mandates dictating what I can and cannot do with my life.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

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Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 08:39:19 -0800 (PST)
From: Felix King <kingfelix7331 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: OT; "Allyour bases"..
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So Richard, what's your problem with the patriot act? You voted for Mr. Bush to be your governor, then you voted for him to be your president, then you voted again for him to be your president. And now you don't like the results? Try voting for someone else, maybe you get better results.
   
  Yrs Truly,
  Felix King

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<div>So Richard, what's your problem with the patriot act? You voted for Mr. Bush to be your governor, then you voted for him to be your president, then you voted again for him to be your president. And now you don't like the results? Try voting for someone else, maybe you get better results.</div>  <div>&nbsp;</div>  <div>Yrs Truly,</div>  <div>Felix King</div><p>__________________________________________________<br>Do You Yahoo!?<br>Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around <br>http://mail.yahoo.com 
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He lost his job in the patent office because he was open-minded enough 
to attend a free-energy conference.  Now he is vindicated and the 
defenders of the faith, Peter and Bob are chastized:

http://users.erols.com/iri/ValonePatentOfficeDecision.htm

Maybe there is a new day dawning for FE.
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/story/0,3605,1654803,00.html?gusrc=rss

"The powerful ocean current that bathes Britain and northern Europe in 
warm waters from the tropics has weakened dramatically in recent years, 
a consequence of global warming that could trigger more severe winters 
and cooler summers across the region, scientists warn today.

Researchers on a scientific expedition in the Atlantic Ocean measured 
the strength of the current between Africa and the east coast of 
America and found that the circulation has slowed by 30% since a 
previous expedition 12 years ago."

<more>

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From: ThomasClark123 aol.com
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-------------------------------1133468885
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 11/22/2005 6:43:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
eo200 freenet.carleton.ca writes:
> The problem is why curling stones, which rotate clockwise, curl to 
> the right, unlike other objects, such as a glass spinning on a 
> table, which veer in the opposite direction. 
Thanks for the post.  

P.M.S. Blackett's law conneting the magnetic field of a body with its spin 
P=BG^1/2/2c * U where P is the magnetic field strength, B a new constant with 
magnitude near to unity for the unites chosen, G the universal gravitation 
constant, c the speed of light, and U the angular momentum may help us find a 
connection between right and left curls, gravity and rotating spinning matter.

If we assume that the spiraling curling force in every atom may be associated 
with the gravity force, then if we were to counter the spiraling force in 
every atom by either using a counter spiraling force such as a counter spiraling 
sphere or gyroscopic force around the atom or a collections of atoms in a body 
or ship, then we may be able to counter gravity.  Since many objects may have 
a spiraling force that goes in both left and right spiraling directions we 
may need a counter spiraling force that goes counter right and counter left as 
in a double left and right spiraling spheres or gyroscopes as used in the Nazi 
Bell antigravity device.  We may also develope tinny left and right handed 
antennas placed in nanomade materials which capture the spiraling forces and 
creates and antispiraling force, to make materials that may jam out some of the 
gravity forces perhaps up to 80 percent. 

-------------------------------1133468885
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML><HEAD>
<META charset=3DUS-ASCII http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; cha=
rset=3DUS-ASCII">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2769" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fffff=
f">
<DIV>
<DIV>In a message dated 11/22/2005 6:43:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, eo200 f=
reenet.carleton.ca writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue=20=
2px solid"><FONT face=3DArial>&gt; The problem is why curling stones, which=20=
rotate clockwise, curl to <BR>&gt; the right, unlike other objects, such as=20=
a glass spinning on a <BR>&gt; table, which veer in the opposite direction.=20=
</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV>Thanks for the post.&nbsp; </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>P.M.S. Blackett's law conneting the magnetic field of a body with its s=
pin P=3DBG^1/2/2c * U where P is the magnetic field strength, B a new consta=
nt with magnitude near to unity for the unites chosen, G the universal gravi=
tation constant, c the speed of light, and U the angular momentum may help u=
s find a connection between right and left&nbsp;curls, gravity and rotating=20=
spinning&nbsp;matter.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>If we assume that the spiraling curling force in every atom may be asso=
ciated with the gravity force, then if we were to counter the spiraling forc=
e in every atom by either using a counter spiraling force such as a counter=20=
spiraling sphere or gyroscopic force around the atom or a collections of ato=
ms in a body or ship, then we may be able to counter gravity.&nbsp; Since ma=
ny objects may have a spiraling force that goes in both left and right spira=
ling directions we may need a counter spiraling force that goes counter righ=
t and counter left as in a double left and right spiraling spheres or gyrosc=
opes as used in the Nazi Bell antigravity device.&nbsp; We may also develope=
 tinny left and right handed antennas placed in nanomade materials which cap=
ture the spiraling forces and creates and antispiraling force, to make mater=
ials that may jam out some of the gravity forces perhaps up to 80 percent. <=
/DIV></BODY></HTML>

-------------------------------1133468885--

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In a message dated 10/20/2005 3:23:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
billb eskimo.com writes:
On Thu, 20 Oct 2005 ThomasClark123 aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 10/14/2005 11:43:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> ThomasClark123 aol.com writes:
> Here below is a link to an article that discusses how to make hoverboards 
and
> hovercars work based on Forcefield Air-cushion Technology:
>
> http://www.spacemagnetics.com/hovercraft/faq_hovercraft.html

The page is silly; it's about "ferrofluid-glob technology," not about
air-cushions or force fields.

This site strongly resembles one of the many "fake plans websites" that
plague the Free Energy arena.  When "Back to the Future" first came out,
there were some fake-plans companies selling stuff as well.  The creators
of these sites don't have any working technology, and their intent is to
sell expensive plans which do not work.  Don't trust them, and certainly
don't spend your money. See:
I had a chance to read more of the Hovertech Designs pdf. I purchased at 
http://www.spacemagnetics.com/ , which discussed some experiments such as Electr
ostatic repulsion-Levitation Experiment, Magnetic Ion Containment-Magnetic 
Bottle Experiment, Electrostatic Ion Containment - Ion Pressure Experiment, 
Paramagnetic Levitation - Paramagnetic Gas Experiment, Multi-Surface Maglev - Maglev 
Experiment.  And which gives plans to build a Van De Graaff Generator, a High 
Voltage Power Supply, an Ion Detector, a Gauss Meter as well as an Ion Cloud 
chamber to perform the experiments. 

They also have a program at their web site used to fine tune the containment 
coil used in the magnetic bottle experiment which traps a gas and liked 
charged ions with magnets to create a gas ionic air cushion that reduces the overall 
charge needed to lift the same weight. They plan to publish a more detailed 
report on the above ideas later. 

The last names of some of the writers of the Hovertech Designs.pdf, Bertrand 
as in Bertrand Russell and Ford as in Henry Ford, hint that the Ford Motor 
Company and the United Kingdom's classified researcher's and scientists may be 
encouraging and leaking out some of the ideas presented in the above projects. 

With General Motors filing for bankruptcy and potentially moving to Mexico, 
the Ford Company may be the one last hope that the USA has in maintaining its 
automotive industry. Perhaps Ford has plans to build hover cars in the USA in 
the future to provide more USA jobs.

Baron Von Volsung, http://www.rhfweb.com/baron, Email: 
http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html
President Thomas D. Clark, Email: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html, 
Personal Web Page: http://www.rhfweb.com/personal
New Age Production's Inc., http://www.rhfweb.com/newage
Star Haven Community Services, at http://www.rhfweb.com/sh
Radiation Health Foundation Trust at http://www.rhfweb.com/

Making a difference one person at a time
Get informed. Inform others.

-------------------------------1133470883
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<HTML><HEAD>
<META charset=3DUS-ASCII http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; cha=
rset=3DUS-ASCII">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2769" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fffff=
f">
<DIV>
<DIV>In a message dated 10/20/2005 3:23:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, billb e=
skimo.com writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue=20=
2px solid"><FONT face=3DArial>On Thu, 20 Oct 2005 ThomasClark123 aol.com wro=
te:<BR><BR>&gt; In a message dated 10/14/2005 11:43:15 AM Eastern Daylight T=
ime,<BR>&gt; ThomasClark123 aol.com writes:<BR>&gt; Here below is a link to=20=
an article that discusses how to make hoverboards and<BR>&gt; hovercars work=
 based on Forcefield Air-cushion Technology:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; http://www.spac=
emagnetics.com/hovercraft/faq_hovercraft.html<BR><BR>The page is silly; it's=
 about "ferrofluid-glob technology," not about<BR>air-cushions or force fiel=
ds.<BR><BR>This site strongly resembles one of the many "fake plans websites=
" that<BR>plague the Free Energy arena.&nbsp; When "Back to the Future" firs=
t came out,<BR>there were some fake-plans companies selling stuff as well.&n=
bsp; The creators<BR>of these sites don't have any working technology, and t=
heir intent is to<BR>sell expensive plans which do not work.&nbsp; Don't tru=
st them, and certainly<BR>don't spend your money. See:</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></=
DIV>
<DIV>I had a chance to read more of the Hovertech Designs pdf. I purchased a=
t <A href=3D"http://www.spacemagnetics.com/">http://www.spacemagnetics.com/<=
/A>&nbsp;, which discussed some experiments such as Electrostatic repulsion-=
Levitation Experiment, Magnetic Ion Containment-Magnetic Bottle Experiment,=20=
Electrostatic Ion Containment - Ion Pressure Experiment, Paramagnetic Levita=
tion - Paramagnetic Gas Experiment, Multi-Surface Maglev - Maglev Experiment=
.&nbsp; And which gives plans to build a Van De Graaff Generator, a High Vol=
tage Power Supply, an Ion Detector, a Gauss Meter as well as an Ion Cloud ch=
amber to perform the experiments. <BR></DIV>
<DIV>They also have a program at their web site used to fine tune the contai=
nment coil used in the magnetic bottle experiment which traps a gas and like=
d charged ions with magnets to create a gas&nbsp;ionic air cushion that redu=
ces the overall charge needed to lift the same weight. They plan to publish=20=
a more detailed report on the above ideas later. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The last names of some of the writers of the Hovertech Designs.pdf, Ber=
trand&nbsp;as in Bertrand Russell&nbsp;and Ford as in Henry Ford, hint that=20=
the Ford Motor Company and the&nbsp;United Kingdom's classified researcher's=
 and scientists may be&nbsp;encouraging and leaking out some of the ideas&nb=
sp;presented in&nbsp;the above projects. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>With General Motors filing for bankruptcy and potentially moving to Mex=
ico, the Ford Company may be the one last hope that the USA has in&nbsp;main=
taining its automotive industry. Perhaps Ford has plans to build hover cars=20=
in the USA in the future to provide more USA jobs.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Baron Von Volsung, <A title=3Dhttp://www.rhfweb.com/baron href=3D"http:=
//www.rhfweb.com/baron">http://www.rhfweb.com/baron</A>, Email: <A title=3Dh=
ttp://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html href=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.=
html">http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html</A><BR>President Thomas D. Clark,=
 Email: <A title=3Dhttp://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html href=3D"http://www.r=
hfweb.com/emailform.html">http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html</A>, <BR>Pers=
onal Web Page: <A title=3Dhttp://www.rhfweb.com/personal href=3D"http://www.=
rhfweb.com/personal">http://www.rhfweb.com/personal</A><BR>New Age Productio=
n's Inc., <A title=3Dhttp://www.rhfweb.com/newage href=3D"http://www.rhfweb.=
com/newage">http://www.rhfweb.com/newage</A><BR>Star Haven Community Service=
s, at <A title=3Dhttp://www.rhfweb.com/sh href=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/sh">=
http://www.rhfweb.com/sh</A><BR>Radiation Health Foundation Trust at <A titl=
e=3Dhttp://www.rhfweb.com/ href=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/">http://www.rhfweb=
.com/</A><BR><BR><B>Making a difference one person at a time<BR>Get informed=
. Inform others</B>.</DIV></BODY></HTML>

-------------------------------1133470883--

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Subject: well, well
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From: Akira KawasakiTo: vortex-l eskimo.com
Sent: 12/1/2005 12:57:20 PM 
Subject: well, well


Dec, 01, 2005

Vortex,

A news item says about 300 kg of weapons grade Plutonium is unaccounted for at  "Lost Atoms" National Laboratory. Thet say it is enough for 50 bombs. Homeland Safety takes on new meaning.

-ak-
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<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> Akira Kawasaki<B>To: </B><A title=vortex-l. eskimo.com href="mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com">vortex-l@eskimo.com</A></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> 12/1/2005 12:57:20 PM </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> well, well</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><FONT size=2>
<DIV>Dec, 01, 2005</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Vortex,</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>A news item says about 300 kg of weapons grade Plutonium is unaccounted for at&nbsp; "Lost Atoms" National Laboratory. Thet say it is enough for 50 bombs. Homeland Safety takes on new meaning.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>-ak-</DIV></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec  1 18:46:45 2005
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: polonium halos
Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 13:45:26 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Wesley Bruce's message of Thu, 01 Dec 2005 01:16:44
+1100:
Hi,
[snip]
>As the isotopes decay they emit an alpha-particle at velocities that 
>initially prevent it from interacting with the crystal lattice. As the 
>particles slow they interact with the material breaking ionic bonds and 
>leaving a mark. Because the particles are emitted at random from a very 

If they are not initially interacting with the lattice, then how
do they slow?

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec  2 00:34:51 2005
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Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 02:33:51 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy usfamily.net>
Subject: Re: polonium halos back on topic
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>I posted:
>
>>I'm wondering what the existence of the halos means, www.halos.com
>>

and Wesley Bruce responded

>I have known of this work for years and have the book but it's gone 
>missing, should never lend books to anyone!

Purchase another one, it's for a good cause!

>I have corresponded with Dr Gentry on one occasion but I forget why. 
>I have worked with Dr Andrew Snelling who is also mentioned on the 
>site.

Interesting.

>According to the dominant theories of planetary evolution Polonium 
>halos should never be found alone without other halos corresponding 
>to reactions earlier in the decay sequence from Uranium 238 and 
>Thorium 232 to more stable isotopes. This means the rock dates from 
>the creation week and was created with polonium in it. According to 
>gentry.

I have to admit that the polonium halo, without the other halos is 
interesting. I guess that it proves that the zircon, was created 
without it's mother elements. I don't have a problem with that, 
because I'm a creationist, but I can see where it would conflict with 
someone who believed that the Earth just aggregated out of star dust. 
If that were the case, it would seem to me that all the elements 
would be distributed equally. I assume the the visible halo was 
produced by a succession of decay events in the zircon crystal. If 
this is the case, since polonium is a rather long lived 
radioneuclide, IMHO, the existence of the halos adds creditability to 
my argument. Is there some way, based on the halo to estimate the 
number of decay events required to produce it?

>
>The debate the web site relates to between Dr Gentry and Dr Snelling 
>is an indication that even if creationism is accepted as true; 
>scientific debate will not stop there. There are interesting debates 
>even within creationism.


I'm an Old Earth Creationist. The idea of everything, suddenly 
appearing out of nothing, spontaneously, (without an intelligent 
designer) is an idea as fanciful as anything published in Amazing 
Stories. IMHO, this flight of fantasy is exceeded only by spontaneous 
biogenesis. The Hebrew text can be read either way. The Young 
Earthers made an issue of it, sponsoring two debates on the matter. 
They have control of the media, and are the same people who ignore 
Hebrew Roots, which is a guaranteed way of getting an argument out of 
me. It is an interesting paradox that, the closer you are to someone 
theologically, the more heated become the arguments over the area of 
disagreement.

>If Dr Snelling is correct then a Lenr process mid flood would 
>rapidly 'age' the isotopes. I'm looking at zircon cold fusion based 
>transmutation Gleeson's work and analysing it in respect to natural 
>zircons.


The cold fusion theorist, David Moon makes a similar argument in his 
book, Carbon Dating, Cold Fusion and a Curve Ball.

>
>See TJ [means simply Technical Journal] for the latest papers on the subject.
>
>http://www.answersingenesis.org/tj/v15/i1/radiohalos.asp
>

I've visited the website, their unbending advocacy of the young earth 
model irritates me. They sent me a paper supporting the Y E position 
based on the  meanings of the Hebrew words used later in the Tanach 
(Old Testament). Their attempting to pass themselves off as Hebrew 
experts, really poured gasoline on the fire. This after they ignored 
my quoting several Hebrew scholars who agree with me.


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Subject: Re: well, well
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>
>
>From: Akira KawasakiTo: <mailto:vortex-l eskimo.com>vortex-l@eskimo.com
>Sent: 12/1/2005 12:57:20 PM
>Subject: well, well
>
>Dec, 01, 2005
>
>Vortex,
>
>A news item says about 300 kg of weapons grade Plutonium is 
>unaccounted for at  "Lost Atoms" National Laboratory. Thet say it is 
>enough for 50 bombs. Homeland Safety takes on new meaning.
>
>-ak-

Really, do you have a source for this story?


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<html><head><style type="text/css"><!--
blockquote, dl, ul, ol, li { padding-top: 0 ; padding-bottom: 0 }
 --></style><title>Re: well, well</title></head><body>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>&nbsp;<br>
<blockquote><b>From:</b> Akira Kawasaki<b>To:</b> <a
href="mailto:vortex-l eskimo.com">vortex-l@eskimo.com</a></blockquote>
<blockquote><b>Sent:</b> 12/1/2005 12:57:20 PM</blockquote>
<blockquote><b>Subject:</b> well, well</blockquote>
<blockquote><br></blockquote>
<blockquote><font size="-1">Dec, 01, 2005</font></blockquote>
<blockquote><font size="-1">&nbsp;</font></blockquote>
<blockquote><font size="-1">Vortex,</font></blockquote>
<blockquote><font size="-1">&nbsp;</font></blockquote>
<blockquote><font size="-1">A news item says about 300 kg of weapons
grade Plutonium is unaccounted for at&nbsp; &quot;Lost Atoms&quot;
National Laboratory. Thet say it is enough for 50 bombs. Homeland
Safety takes on new meaning.</font></blockquote>
<blockquote><font size="-1">&nbsp;</font></blockquote>
<blockquote><font size="-1">-ak-</font></blockquote>
</blockquote>
<div><br></div>
<div>Really, do you have a source for this story?</div>
</body>
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Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 10:38:49 +0000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Grimer <f.grimer grimer2.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: well, well
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At 12:50 am 02/12/2005 -0600, Thomas wrote:
>>
>>
>>From: Akira KawasakiTo: <mailto:vortex-l eskimo.com>vortex-l@eskimo.com
>>Sent: 12/1/2005 12:57:20 PM
>>Subject: well, well
>>
>>Dec, 01, 2005
>>
>>Vortex,
>>
>>A news item says about 300 kg of weapons grade Plutonium is 
>>unaccounted for at  "Lost Atoms" National Laboratory. Thet say it is 
>>enough for 50 bombs. Homeland Safety takes on new meaning.
>>
>>-ak-



>Really, do you have a source for this story?



It is interesting to see what comes up when one googles
       "300 kg of weapons grade"    8-)
FG


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December 02, 2005

Vortex,

Ypu asked:

Really, do you have a source for this story?

The source is The Institute for Energy and Envuromental Research. It is reported to be a Washington D. C. think rank.

-ak-
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<HTML style="FONT-SIZE: x-small; FONT-FAMILY: MS Sans Serif"><HEAD><TITLE>Re: well, well</TITLE>
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<BODY>
<DIV><FONT size=2><FONT size=-1>December 02, 2005</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Vortex,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Ypu asked:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Really, do you have a source for this story?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The source is The Institute for Energy and Envuromental Research. It is reported to be a Washington D. C. think rank.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>-ak-</DIV></BODY></HTML>
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BlankInteresting series of posts. I have always viewed the " halos" as =
"mirror images". Add a heaping dose of theology to the mix and you have =
a debate about nothing against something. The math equation thus becomes =
 50% of nothing =3D nothing.

Positive answer to the question becomes.. we don't know. Oh ! how great =
would be history should the writers simply state.. in lieu of =
speculation, we simply state  " we don't know".

Grimer often expresses the same thought in a different way.. he quotes a =
" ditty" from merry ole England.

Richard


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<DIV>Interesting series of posts. I have always viewed the&nbsp;" =
halos"&nbsp;as=20
"mirror images". Add a heaping dose of theology to the mix and you have =
a debate=20
about nothing against something. The math equation thus becomes&nbsp; =
50% of=20
nothing =3D nothing.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Positive answer to the question becomes.. we don't know. Oh ! how =
great=20
would be history should the writers simply state.. in lieu of =
speculation, we=20
simply state&nbsp; " we don't know".</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Grimer often expresses the same thought in a different way.. he =
quotes a "=20
ditty" from merry ole England.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Richard</DIV>
<P>&nbsp;</P></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec  2 08:43:17 2005
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Hello Vorts,

Just a quick word to let you know that my report at ICCF12 went quite well. 
People told me that they found my report informative and helpful. As far as 
the subject matter, most people were fascinated, some skeptical, some 
curious, and some clearly excited.

It's been 5 months since I started investigating this story and I am glad 
to finally be able to start talking about it, and most 
importantly,  getting expert feedback from more researchers in the cold 
fusion community.

There were quite a few questions from the audience after my talk. All very 
intelligent, technical and appropriate questions. To me, this was an 
indicator that the audience took this seriously and were thinking about it 
with interest and curiosity. Considering the lack of data on the work, the 
response was expected.

Takahashi voiced some polite skepticism, he was disappointed about the lack 
of scientific evidence, but it was expressed honestly and in a fair manner. 
All I could say was that I agreed with him about the lack of data.

Here is the slide presentation: 
http://newenergytimes.com/Library/2005KrivitS-ICCF12-Presentation.pdf

There is more that I am willing to share with Vorts who I know so if you 
have any burning questions, please shoot me a private email. I just don't 
want to put much more on this public forum at this time. More will 
naturally come out in future issues of New Energy Times.

I'll have audio and video in a week or so after I get back.

Steve Krivit
Yokohama, Japan
2 Dec. 2005

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From: Standing Bear <rockcast earthlink.net>
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On Saturday 26 November 2005 03:06, thomas malloy wrote:
> If you thought Iraq was expensive, just wait.
>
>
> Hellyer warned, "The United States military are preparing weapons
> which could be used against the aliens, and they could get us into an
> intergalactic war without us
>
> >I can only conclude that the Aliens have vast stockpiles of petroleum.
>
> This is a nonsequetor. I also think that this entire scenario is nonsense.


     Why on Earth [haw, haw, haw!] would any alien want anything to do with
the likes of us.  We pose no danger as most of what passes for scientists
here are in full worship of Einstein and therefore passionately believe 
without question or comment that everything he ever said or wrote is 
gospel.  These folks actively seek out non belilevers in order to can them 
from their jobs and to ruin their careers.  As such, Earthmen pose no danger 
to whichever species of aliens are around as humanity will never even be 
allowed to publicly seriousely think about star travel as long as these 
dogmatic obstructionists hold the planet's scientific establishment in total 
thrall to this idol. This, of course, will suit other religions that hold 
that we are the only sentient 'children of god' in the 'universe of god's 
creation'.......oh!....I mean intelligent design!  
   We are really stupid.  The philosopher who said that man is a creature 
capable of reason was French, I believe.  Reason is a skill we practice more 
in the breach than in the observance.  Some of us are bread on the window to 
be taken at any time and obviousely have no judgement on how to either save 
or forward ourselves.  Some willfully encourage their own destruction.  
Britain and all of Europe including Ireland is about to be turned into an 
icebox like northern Siberia within 10 years if the weathermen are right 
about the gulf current oscillation shutting down due to an influx of 
meltwater from the northern polar regions and Greenland glaciers.  
   The only energy that will save even just save them from freezing now in 
their homes is nuclear.   The Irish who will be the very FIRST victims of 
this calamity of bibical proportions are officially on record as opposing 
nuclear power, any nuclear power.  The increased use of chemical fuels in 
Europe will only increase the greenhouse gas load that caused them the 
problem in the first place and deepen the problem into permanence.
  Given man's conflicted nature and unwillingness to find unity, it is 
reasonable to suppose the anti-nuke greens will happily litigate their whole
population, themselves included, into the vast graveyard that Europe will
become.....including the lawyers that made the puny fists of these luddites
effective legal [lethal] weapons.  Only the French will survive, and maybe
not even them for long unless they blow up the Channel Tunnel and 
put troops on borders with green Holland and greener Germany.  The French 
had the foresight to build nuclear power to 70 percent of their base needs.
   The French were capable of reason.......and USED their reason!
   If there are any 'aliens' out there, they must indeed be laughing at us.
In any case they would likely not be 'interglactic[sic] visitors', but rather 
would be from the local stellar neighborhood.  There would be no real
reason for intergalactic peoples to visit a system outside the galactic belt 
of easy availability of transuranic elements.  And the supply line to support 
any planetary colonization and reformation project would be impossibly long 
and unsupportable if any locals objected.  Local stellar neighborhood peoples 
WOULD object to such an invasion of their sphere of influence and/or 
usurpation of resources that for whatever reason they consider theirs.   
   The foolish American president could impotently try, if he liked (for a 
photo op), to use the air farce stategic air command on an alien nation that 
could simply divert the orbit of a in-system small asteroid to effect its' 
'final solution to the human problem'.  The locals have left us alone so far.  
As far as humans fighting them, the Soviets have already given them enough 
provocation over the last few decades besides actually getting in a lucky 
shot with a missile over Kapustin Yar in 1948.  And bringing one of the cigar 
shape variety down!  
     Dumb American politicians don't have to keep Roswell secret!
    The Russians KNOW the truth!
    But as long as we stay preachin' ourselves to death, we pose no threat or 
competition for this system's resources........which we SHOULD consider ours 
and we SHOULD explore and mine.  We may be wanting to build some labs that
we should locate on a remote asteroid just in case we invent something 
potentially useful but dangerous if mishandled, like a stranglet or a black 
hole......minimize and isolate the damage.

Standing Bear

   

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From: "Rick Monteverde" <rick highsurf.com>
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Use your hand to push a handful of air. Now imagine you have a vortex
and push that with your hand. You're moving more air, more reaction
mass. Isn't that what they mean in the article, or they just don't say
at all? The vortex ties air together into a momentary 'thing' that has
more mass than the smaller handful of air. I doubt the increase in
reaction mass at insect reynolds numbers does much, but I guess it all
adds up with rapid wing-beats. The viscous drag against the larger pulse
of air moving through the surrounding air is a good thing too if you're
pushing either down or backwards or both to get thrust and lift.
Probably would work even better on a larger scale - like for human
powered flight. Flonk... Flonk... flonk...

-----Original Message-----
From: Harry Veeder [mailto:eo200 freenet.carleton.ca] 
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2005 1:52 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Secrets of bee flight revealed


The article mentions the forces provided by the vortices...but the
origin of the "added-mass force" is not explained.

quote:
> Lastly, there is another peculiar force known as
> added-mass force which peaks at the ends of each stroke and is related

> to acceleration as the wings direction changes.

 
Harry

Rick Monteverde wrote:

> Conceptually that means more stuff to push off of. <???>
> 
> These kinds of wings create vortices of air which feature increased 
> mass and resistance to downward/rearward movement than a similar 
> surface would encounter while slicing through the medium in a more 
> laminar mode. Probably get increased stability too.
> 





From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec  2 11:00:57 2005
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I re-read what I wrote and had a laugh - sounds like the vortex I was
talking about is Vortex-L!

"The vortex ties air together into a momentary 'thing' that has more
mass than the smaller handful of air. I doubt the increase in reaction
mass at insect reynolds numbers does much, but I guess it all adds up
with rapid wing-beats."


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Called the nano-cage:

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2005-12/nios-nu120105.php
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> [Original Message]
> From: What's New <whatsnew BOBPARK.ORG>
 To: <BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW LISTSERV.UMD.EDU>
 Date: 12/2/2005 7:26:24 PM
 Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday December 2, 2005

 WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 2 Dec 05   Washington, DC  

 1. COFFEE FIX: REVEALED BY FUNCTIONAL MAGNETIC RESONANCE IMAGING. 
 fMRI devices, which image the regions of activity in the brain,
 are making many important discoveries.  None are more important
 to WN than an Austrian study reported this week at a meeting of
 the Radiological Society in Chicago.  A significant increase in
 activity in the anterior cingulate cortex of the brain, which is
  responsible for short-term memory, peaked 20 minutes after
 consuming caffeine corresponding to two cups of coffee.  The
 effect dissipates after 45 minutes.  By my calculation, sipping
 coffee at the rate of 3 cups an hour should sustain the effect
 indefinitely.  I just have to remember to keep sipping. 

 2. SPACE PARALYSIS: NASA HAS NO PLAN FOR SOLVING THE FOAM CRACKS.
 Last week, WN said it had been one year since the announcement by
 President Bush of his "Vision for Space Exploration."  Sigh.  It
 was actually two years.  Perhaps I wasn't drinking enough coffee.
 It is, however, difficult to judge the passage of time in an
 isolation chamber.  Can anybody think of anything that's happened
 in human space flight?  It's been almost three years since the
 Columbia disaster, and the shuttle has flown only once since. 
 According to the Washington Post today, there has been no
 decision about how to deal with the foam-cracking problem.  

 3. SPACE SCIENCE: INTERNATIONAL EXPLORATION WITH ROBOTS THRIVES.
 This week in the journal Science, there was a report that the
 European Space Agency's Mars Express orbiter had found a layer of
 ice near the north pole of Mars to be exceptionally pure and
 about a mile deep.  The advanced radar system on Mars Express has
 so far found no convincing evidence of subsurface liquid water.
 Meanwhile on Mar's surface, Spirit and Opportunity haven't seen
 any either.  Nature published reports based on information from
 ESA's Huygens probe during its descent to Saturn's moon Titan
 last January  http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN05/wn012105.html . 
 Japan's spacecraft Hayabusa successfully touched down on a small
 asteroid, Itokawa, and collected samples.  Unfortunately, it has
 thruster problems and may never be able to return them to Earth. 

 4. COLUMBINE REDEMPTION: "BAD SCIENCE PRODUCES BAD CONSEQUENCES."
 Who could disagree?  This was the title of a statement issued by
 the father of Rachel Scott, one of the victims of the Columbine
 tragedy.  The "bad science" Mr. Scott had in mind is evolution.
 Columbine Redemption, the organization he founded, is devoted to
 taking evolution out of our schools, and putting prayer back in. 
 We note only the obvious point that the most violent conflicts in
 the world today, including that between Sunni and Shiite in Iraq,
 involve cultures on both sides that demand frequent prayers in
 school and teach the Genesis account of human origins.

 5. MYTHOLOGY: THE UNIVERSITY OF KANSAS CANCELS DEBUNKING CLASS. 
 It included, Creationism, ID and "other religious mythologies." 

 THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND.
 Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the
 University of Maryland, but they should be.
 ---
 Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.bobpark.org
 What's New is moving to a different listserver and our
 subscription process has changed. To change your subscription
 status please visit this link:
 http://listserv.umd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=bobparks-whatsnew&A=1


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec  2 16:18:30 2005
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: New H2 Storage Method
Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2005 11:17:08 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  hohlrauml6d netscape.net's message of Fri, 02 Dec
2005 14:35:52 -0500:
Hi,
[snip]
>Called the nano-cage:
>
>http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2005-12/nios-nu120105.php
[snip]

More practical, and already available:-

http://www.safehydrogen.com/PDFs/28890o.pdf
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec  2 17:50:27 2005
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Is this a reference to my l6d moniker?  ;-)

I think the Zn cell will be much less expensive than the Li slurpie.  
Although the Li density is likely higher.

-----Original Message-----
From: Robin

More practical, and already available:-

http://www.safehydrogen.com/PDFs/28890o.pdf
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From: Harry Veeder <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: Secrets of bee flight revealed
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Consider this question and comment I added to the wiki page on added-mass.

 How does one determine how much of the surrounding mass to add? It sounds
 like added-mass is an egineering fudge factor rather than good science.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Added_mass

Harry


Rick Monteverde wrote:

> Use your hand to push a handful of air. Now imagine you have a vortex
> and push that with your hand. You're moving more air, more reaction
> mass. Isn't that what they mean in the article, or they just don't say
> at all? The vortex ties air together into a momentary 'thing' that has
> more mass than the smaller handful of air. I doubt the increase in
> reaction mass at insect reynolds numbers does much, but I guess it all
> adds up with rapid wing-beats. The viscous drag against the larger pulse
> of air moving through the surrounding air is a good thing too if you're
> pushing either down or backwards or both to get thrust and lift.
> Probably would work even better on a larger scale - like for human
> powered flight. Flonk... Flonk... flonk...
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Harry Veeder [mailto:eo200 freenet.carleton.ca]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2005 1:52 PM
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: Re: Secrets of bee flight revealed
> 
> 
> The article mentions the forces provided by the vortices...but the
> origin of the "added-mass force" is not explained.
> 
> quote:
>> Lastly, there is another peculiar force known as
>> added-mass force which peaks at the ends of each stroke and is related
> 
>> to acceleration as the wings direction changes.
> 
> 
> Harry
> 
> Rick Monteverde wrote:
> 
>> Conceptually that means more stuff to push off of. <???>
>> 
>> These kinds of wings create vortices of air which feature increased
>> mass and resistance to downward/rearward movement than a similar
>> surface would encounter while slicing through the medium in a more
>> laminar mode. Probably get increased stability too.
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: New H2 Storage Method
Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2005 15:05:19 +1100
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In reply to  hohlrauml6d netscape.net's message of Fri, 02 Dec
2005 20:49:34 -0500:
Hi,
[snip]
>Is this a reference to my l6d moniker?  ;-)
>
>I think the Zn cell will be much less expensive than the Li slurpie.  
>Although the Li density is likely higher.

Since the Li is constantly recycled, it should be possible to
institute a deposit scheme, where you get money back for the waste
product. Only thing is that fuel/waste theft would likely become a
serious problem.
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy usfamily.net>
Subject: Intergalactic War
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I posted;
On Saturday 26 November 2005 03:06, thomas malloy wrote:
>  If you thought Iraq was expensive, just wait.
>
>
>  Hellyer warned, "The United States military are preparing weapons
>  which could be used against the aliens, and they could get us into an
>  intergalactic war without us
>
>  >I can only conclude that the Aliens have vast stockpiles of petroleum.
>
>  This is a nonsequetor. I also think that this entire scenario is nonsense.

And Standing Bear replied;

      Why on Earth [haw, haw, haw!] would any alien want anything to do with
the likes of us.

You have to realize that if that scenario is correct, A: my paradigm 
of the coming cleansing of humanity is wrong. B: There is a wrinkle 
in physics which will allow us to vacation in distant galaxies the 
way we now vacation in the south pacific.

My being of the opinion that this if as fanciful a scenario as 
anything published in Amazing Stories, has no connection to the World 
View of anyone who sees reality through this paradigm.  If it were to 
come true, we would be a blight on the galaxy, just ask the Native 
Americans.



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From: OrionWorks <orionworks charter.net>
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Subject: Re: Intergalactic War
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> From: thomas malloy
> 
> >  If you thought Iraq was expensive, just wait.
> >
> >  Hellyer warned, "The United States military are
> > preparing weapons which could be used against the
> > aliens, and they could get us into an
> > intergalactic war without us
> >
> >  >I can only conclude that the Aliens have vast
> >  >stockpiles of petroleum.
> >
> >  This is a nonsequetor. I also think that this entire
> > scenario is nonsense.
> 
> And Standing Bear replied;
> 
>       Why on Earth [haw, haw, haw!] would any alien want
>  anything to do with the likes of us.
> 
> You have to realize that if that scenario is correct,
> A: my paradigm of the coming cleansing of humanity is
> wrong. 

FWIW, this reminds me of one of my favoriste Star Trek (The Next Generation) episodes where John Luc Picard, played by Patrick Stewart, suffers a serious accident causing him unexpectedly to have a Near Death Experience. In his NDE John Luc is horrified to encounter Q, his worst nemeses, played most affectionately by John Delancie. 

Q informs John Luc of his fate, that he is going to have to spend the rest of eternity in his company.

John Luc, in a huff, storms away shouting over his shoulder that he refuses to believe in the possibility that the Universe is run that badly. 

You are in good company, Thomas. As you can see, even great star ship captains experience their own moments of terror.

> B: There is a wrinkle in physics which will allow us to
> vacation in distant galaxies the way we now vacation in
> the south pacific.

I hope so.

> My being of the opinion that this if as fanciful a
> scenario as anything published in Amazing Stories, has
> no connection to the World View of anyone who sees
> reality through this paradigm.  If it were to 
> come true, we would be a blight on the galaxy,
> just ask the Native Americans.
> 

As astonishing as this might sound, I tend to agree with you on this one.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

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Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 10:18:02 -0800 (PST)
From: Felix King <kingfelix7331 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Intergalactic War
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Wow! that sounds intriguing. How will humanity be cleansed?

thomas malloy <temalloy usfamily.net> wrote:  You have to realize that if that scenario is correct, A: my paradigm 
of the coming cleansing of humanity is wrong. 

		
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<DIV id=RTEContent>Wow! that sounds intriguing. How will humanity be cleansed?<BR><BR><B><I>thomas malloy &lt;temalloy usfamily.net&gt;</I></B> wrote:  <BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">You have to realize that if that scenario is correct, A: my paradigm <BR>of the coming cleansing of humanity is wrong. </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><p>
		<hr size=1> <a href="http://pa.yahoo.com/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=37474/*http://promo.yahoo.com/broadband/ 
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec  3 11:45:21 2005
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Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2005 14:44:18 -0500
From: Harry Veeder <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: Secrets of bee flight revealed
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Ok, after doing some more googling I am beginning to understand this
added-mass business.

This file explains the effect using the motion of a weight immersed in a
fluid hanging from spring.

http://web.mit.edu/2.016/www/labs/L01_Added_Mass_050915.pdf


Harry



Harry Veeder wrote:

> 
> 
> Consider this question and comment I added to the wiki page on added-mass.
> 
> How does one determine how much of the surrounding mass to add? It sounds
> like added-mass is an egineering fudge factor rather than good science.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Added_mass
> 
> Harry
> 
> 
> Rick Monteverde wrote:
> 
>> Use your hand to push a handful of air. Now imagine you have a vortex
>> and push that with your hand. You're moving more air, more reaction
>> mass. Isn't that what they mean in the article, or they just don't say
>> at all? The vortex ties air together into a momentary 'thing' that has
>> more mass than the smaller handful of air. I doubt the increase in
>> reaction mass at insect reynolds numbers does much, but I guess it all
>> adds up with rapid wing-beats. The viscous drag against the larger pulse
>> of air moving through the surrounding air is a good thing too if you're
>> pushing either down or backwards or both to get thrust and lift.
>> Probably would work even better on a larger scale - like for human
>> powered flight. Flonk... Flonk... flonk...
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Harry Veeder [mailto:eo200 freenet.carleton.ca]
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2005 1:52 PM
>> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>> Subject: Re: Secrets of bee flight revealed
>> 
>> 
>> The article mentions the forces provided by the vortices...but the
>> origin of the "added-mass force" is not explained.
>> 
>> quote:
>>> Lastly, there is another peculiar force known as
>>> added-mass force which peaks at the ends of each stroke and is related
>> 
>>> to acceleration as the wings direction changes.
>> 
>> 
>> Harry
>> 
>> Rick Monteverde wrote:
>> 
>>> Conceptually that means more stuff to push off of. <???>
>>> 
>>> These kinds of wings create vortices of air which feature increased
>>> mass and resistance to downward/rearward movement than a similar
>>> surface would encounter while slicing through the medium in a more
>>> laminar mode. Probably get increased stability too.
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 

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I posted;

And Felix King responded

>Wow! that sounds intriguing. How will humanity be cleansed?
>
>thomas malloy <temalloy usfamily.net> wrote:
>
>You have to realize that if that scenario is correct, A: my paradigm
>of the coming cleansing of humanity is wrong.

The planet will be emptied of it's population over a seven year 
period. The survivors, who have been divinely protected, will be 
resettled in Israel and a Torah based theocratic monarchy 
established. The details are in the Bible.

And Steven Johnson responded

>John Luc, in a huff, storms away shouting over his shoulder that he 
>refuses to >believe in the possibility that the Universe is run that 
>badly.
>
>You are in good company, Thomas. As you can see, even great star 
>ship captains >experience their own moments of terror.

Well Steven, what to you think of the prophesized theocratic 
monarchy, is it your worst nightmare?

>>  B: There is a wrinkle in physics which will allow us to
>>  vacation in distant galaxies the way we now vacation in
>>  the south pacific..  If it were to
>>  come true, we would be a blight on the galaxy,
>>  just ask the Native Americans.
>>

>As astonishing as this might sound, I tend to agree with you on this one.

No Steven, I'm not amazed at all. No one get out of bed thinking, 
what can I do to make a the world a worse place today? It doesn't 
take a rocket scientist to realize the fact that we are a blight on 
the world, and that we are poisoning ourselves. The greatest problem 
that we face is not chemical pollution however, If we started 
cooperating, and stopped poisoning ourselves with consumerism and 
militarism and sexual immorality. We could remake the earth into a 
paradise. but this can't happen because of human evil. The continued 
existence of humanity is contingent on the expiation of evil. The 
expiation of evil however requires that it be defined, that's where 
Torah comes in.


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<html><head><style type="text/css"><!--
blockquote, dl, ul, ol, li { padding-top: 0 ; padding-bottom: 0 }
 --></style><title>Re: Intergalactic War</title></head><body>
<div>I posted;</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>And Felix King responded</div>
<div><br></div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>Wow! that sounds intriguing. How will
humanity be cleansed?<br>
<br>
<i><b>thomas malloy &lt;temalloy usfamily.net&gt;</b></i> wrote:<br>
<blockquote>You have to realize that if that scenario is correct, A:
my paradigm</blockquote>
<blockquote>of the coming cleansing of humanity is wrong.</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<div><br></div>
<div>The planet will be emptied of it's population over a seven year
period. The survivors, who have been divinely protected, will be
resettled in Israel and a Torah based theocratic monarchy established.
The details are in the Bible.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>And Steven Johnson responded</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>&gt;John Luc, in a huff, storms away shouting over his shoulder
that he refuses to &gt;believe in the possibility that the Universe is
run that badly.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;You are in good company, Thomas. As you can see, even great star
ship captains &gt;experience their own moments of terror.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Well Steven, what to you think of the prophesized theocratic
monarchy, is it your worst nightmare?</div>
<div><br>
&gt;&gt; B: There is a wrinkle in physics which will allow us to<br>
&gt;&gt; vacation in distant galaxies the way we now vacation in</div>
<div>&gt;&gt; the south pacific..&nbsp; If it were to</div>
<div>&gt;&gt; come true, we would be a blight on the galaxy,</div>
<div>&gt;&gt; just ask the Native Americans.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
</div>
<div>&gt;As astonishing as this might sound, I tend to agree with you
on this one.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>No Steven, I'm not amazed at all. No one get out of bed thinking,
what can I do to make a the world a worse place today? It doesn't take
a rocket scientist to realize the fact that we are a blight on the
world, and that we are poisoning ourselves. The greatest problem that
we face is not chemical pollution however, If we started cooperating,
and stopped poisoning ourselves with consumerism and militarism and
sexual immorality. We could remake the earth into a paradise. but this
can't happen because of human evil. The continued existence of
humanity is contingent on the expiation of evil. The expiation of evil
however requires that it be defined, that's where Torah comes
in.</div>
</body>
</html>
<html>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec  4 10:39:03 2005
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From: "Jones Beene" <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
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Tritium is seldom mentioned in LENR circles these days, and for 
good reason.

Following 9/11 no one wants the G-men "enforcers" of the so-called 
"Patriots" Act looking over their shoulder and jeopardizing 
innocent experiments. I actually considered using a "code word" 
for this nearly unspeakable isotope... but, having no tenure to 
lose nor evil intentions, and considering the vast 
upside-potential of this subject area - what the heck....

In the early days of CF - perhaps the most convincing evidence for 
open-minded physicists, for there being a bona-fide nuclear 
reaction was the appearance of 3H. It was so convincing that some 
of the nay-sayers had to invent fallacious reasons why it was 
found. Here is part of an in old Radio interview of Host: Dr. Bob 
Hieronimus with Featured Guests: Dr. Eugene Mallove,  Professor 
John O'M. Bockris,  and Dr. Hal Puthoff.

Hieronimus: In regards to tritium, you were the first to find it 
in 1989 in the cold fusion process. What is the importance of 
this? Why is it a gigantic step?

Bockris: Oh, well that's very clear. Tritium is a gigantic step. 
It is the real proof that cold fusion, as they call it, exists. 
You may say "as they call it" because I am not too sure about the 
mechanism and I think it might be a fission reaction instead of a 
fusion reaction, however both would be nuclear. And no classical 
chemist, the type that goes along with the chemistry in the book, 
would have expected that tritium would have been formed. That's 
why it is such a gigantic step.

They all thought it was totally impossible.

And of course, as usual, tremendous amounts of money are 
associated with all of this. The way that we make tritium at the 
moment - and tritium is vital in atom bombs - is a million dollars 
an ounce. And it can be made in the laboratory in a very simple 
apparatus for much less money.

So of course people were very surprised. I was accused 
immediately - and that's the usual reaction to these things - of 
fraud. [buy the ignominious yellow-journalist-deluxe - Taubes]. It 
was said that the tritium was obtained by a graduate student 
putting it in from a bottle of tritium."  END

The reason for this essay is two fold -one relates to "political" 
issues (and will be covered in another posting) and the other to a 
particular possibly ignored or unknown methodology (or 
coincidence) for "transitory tritium" being involved in some of 
the reported instances of excess heat in LENR - even when actual 
tritium was not detected - and why should it be unless you have 
the specialized equipment ?

This hypothesis is also be related to an alternative (and 
partially "dated") process involved in the hydrino reaction ("wet" 
cell), and it is definitely not the same one as what appears in R. 
Mills' tedious oeuvre, nor ever mentioned by him.

First, as to detection of tritium - it has been said that you 
practically have to know its there in order to find it! The beta 
decay has an average energy of only 5.6 keV. The penetration range 
of the beta is about 1 micron or less in solids. The television 
monitor you are staring at (unless it is LCD) is producing 4 times 
more intense electrons than this. No normal GM meter will be 
sufficient to detect tritium reliably.

On the hydrino forum, John Connett has demonstrated that the 
(putative) trapped photon of the hydrino at a redundant ground 
state of n=1/3 has a mass/energy of 5.6 keV - and this is a bit 
coincidental in  that this value is recognized as the average 
decay energy of tritium. That beta decay must surely be unrelated 
to the hydrino, or to CF, no?

Now... onwards and upwards ... "towards making a mountain out of a 
mole-hill" ?

Could that beta decay be related to a (former putative) trade 
secret involving the Mossbauer effect and a trigger mechanism 
involved in some forms of LENR ? not to mention one of the reason 
why no "wet" cell device has hit the market yet.

It is also a little curious that around the mid-nineties, with the 
gas-phase cells, that Mills dropped references he had been making 
to "an additional device" being required, possibly as a trigger 
(as a substitute for a radioactive isotope). After all, trade 
secrets can jeopardize patents, but if you read all of the 400+ 
claims in the recent filing, you will probably discover what I am 
talking about.

One strategy for hiding the (former) trade secret is to word it 
into an incidental claim, lost in a huge and onerous list of 
legalese, and never let-on that you had been previously trying to 
hide it. It is very clear to me that Mills is getting much better 
legal advice these days than he did in the beginning (which was 
abysmal) and that this mountain of claims is there to hide 
something (and it is an effective strategy - no one wants to wade 
though this muck).

The Mossbauer effect, is generally thought of as only a diagnostic 
tool, not as a net producer of energy. Technically, this is 
semantics - as the net producer of energy would be labeled in the 
"superset" category of nuclear reaction, known as IGE or induced 
gamma emission. It involves "metastable" isomers and isotopes, 
such as the putative hydrino.

The net energy available here is a thousand times less than fusion 
but a thousand times more than chemical.

In fact the net energy from this version of the hydrino reaction, 
and this version of cold fusion are identical at 5.6 keV.  Other 
levels are possible, but this one has a precise natural isotope 
available.

The "excess energy" comes not from hydrino formation itself, which 
is endothermic, but after a population of hydrinos has been 
created by any method (plasma, gas discharge or electrolysis - or 
most likely as a natural population of hydrinos found in reactive 
metals with ultimate "solar" origin, via the earth's oceans).

After a minimum population of hydrinos is accumulated in your 
medium, or are present naturally in your potassium (strontium, 
rubidium) electrolyte, then the best way to release the energy 
contained therein is via an IGE or induced gamma reaction. You 
must supply a "trigger" after which it becomes autocatalytic. This 
is a Mossbauer-like trigger in that it is "recoilless". It is 
preferable NOT to use a radioactive isotope, and I doubt that 
Mills ever did so after the early 90s.

The trigger must be near the energy of the trapped photon, 
however. A little more or a little less and you get nothing. A 
perfect trigger for 1/3 shrinkage is tritium decay IF it is made 
"in situ" as it is too expensive otherwise (as Bockris mentions). 
Other isotopes are possible, but this is the lowest energy of 
common natural decay which is intimately soluble with hydrinos 
(and is why it is relevant to other forms of LENR and aqueous or 
"wet" cells but not to plasma cells). For plasma cells, of course, 
precise 5.6 keV radiation can be supplied by a tiny spark plug or 
equivalent. And... wow ... doesn't that look like a tiny spark pug 
on some BLP experiments !

A portion of the population of hydrinos will be in the redundant 
level of shrinkage of 1/3 and will have a trapped photon which can 
be released with a 5.6 keV trigger. The beauty of this methodology 
is that other hydrinos can and will be formed from the "hole" 
created when the trapped photon is released. IOW this reaction is 
a self-sustaining ZPE reaction, up to a point. However in the 
liquid, the trigger is probably more effective if it is made "in 
situ" as in some forms of CF (the ones with massive excess heat 
and tritium).

Bottom line = some of these anomaly-reactions (hydrino and CF) are 
ZPE reactions, which look like nuclear reactions because of the 
trapped x-ray photon. ZPE, however, supplies the ultimate energy - 
which is photonic and which is always an "alpha" ratio of 511 keV.

Despite the R. Mills being a veritable genius, it is possible that 
he is not quite superman, yet, and may have 'inadvertently' 
omitted some major details of the hydrino mechanism - that is, IF 
there are two different mechanisms at work and he has described 
only one of them for the official record [and sadly that implies 
he has wasted quite a bit of valuable time on his tome, rather 
than towards a demonstration prototype].

Needless to say, he and his supporters will strongly disagree with 
this assessment - "but time will tell"

... and/or another interloper company, such as Gardner Watts..

Jones 

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On Wed, 30 Nov 2005, Harry Veeder wrote:

> Secrets of bee flight revealed
> http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn8382
>
> Combining robotic modelling with slow-motion videos of airborne honeybees
> may have helped researchers explain the curious aerodynamics of bee flight.

Perhaps one important point gets lost:  Aerodynamicists don't understand
how flight works!  The math is impenetrable because viscosity and
turbulence is an essential component.  And worse, most scientists picked
up in grade school an incorrect explanation of how wings work.

Viscous flow is a nonlinear system, so like the 3-body orbit problem,
there are no general solutions.  You have to run numerical simulations,
and this is mostly impossible because a proper simulation must include
effects on the scale of atoms and millimeters and tens of meters.  Even
simulators using supercompter arrays can only give quite crude results.

In other words, the science of Aerodynamics might SEEM to be
sophisticated, yet they're still laboring in the dark ages.
Flapping-wing insect flight wasn't slightly understood until the 1990s,
when someone finally had the brilliant idea of building a pair of big
plastic moth wings and running them in a water tank with bubble streams as
flow markers.  GEEZE!  This is supposed to be a professional science, yet
the cutting-edge research is stuff that Bill Nye might do.  And worse, it
took them until the 1990s to think of the technique.

(Note that the bee-flight stuff is just a footnote on the famous/infamous
Berkeley Hawk Moth flapping wing machine from the mid 1990s.)



> Aeronautical engineers had previously ³proven² that bees cannot fly.

Nope, this one is an urban legend.

  Tracing the "bumblebee's can't fly" myth
  http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20040911/mathtrek.asp

Me, I think the bumblebee legend is a distortion of "we have almost no
idea how flapping-wing flight works."

In my own amateur research I was stunned when I found that airplanes fly
because of vortex-shedding, while the usuall "Bernoulli effect"
explanation in textbooks is either wrong, or it only applies to
ground-effect flight which exists for a few seconds during takeoff.
Here's an animation of a diagram I created.  So far I've not found any
similar diagram in aerodynamics texts nor on online aerodynamics education
sites.  I suspect that professional aerodynamicists are missing this
simple, grade-school, gut-level explanation, and it warps their
understanding.

  Animation: vortex-shedding momentum effect
  http://amasci.com/wing/rotbal1.html

Also:

  Solving the mystery of flapping flight
  http://journals2.iranscience.net:800/www.sciam.com/www.sciam.com/print_version.cfm articleID=000EE5B1-DCA8-1C6F-84A9809EC588EF21

  Wakes in flapping flight
  http://www.biology.leeds.ac.uk/staff/jmvr/Flight/modelling.htm

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William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb at amasci com                         http://amasci.com
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Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci

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Subject: Re: OT: Secrets of bee flight revealed
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On Wed, 30 Nov 2005, Grimer wrote:

> At 01:40 pm 30/11/2005 -0500, Harry wrote:
>
> > BTW, the article mentions "added-mass force". Does anyone
> > know what that means?
>
>   "Added mass is the weight added to a system due
>   to the fact that an accelerating or decelerating
>   body must move some volume of surrounding fluid
>   with it as it moves. The added mass force opposes
>   the motion, and acts as a kind of drag force.

It's the basis of flight.  It's also how rowboats work:  if you push a
paddle along, it carries a ring-vortex of water with it, and the paddle
seems massive because of this "ball" of water being accelerated.  But if
you then lift the paddle out (or simply turn it 90degrees so it moves
edge-on,) then the paddle DOESN'T carry a huge mass of water with it
during the return stroke.  In other words, the paddle launches massive
balls of water.  Fish tails (and bodies) work like this too.  Ships'
propellors do the same, but on a continuous basis sending out a long
cylinder of water. Airplanes do it too, but the "balls" are pairs of long
tube-shapes of air.

It looks like aerodynamicists are finally getting the hang of thinking in
terms of Newtonian mechanics and reaction engines rather than in Paradigm
Blindness terms using venturi forces and Bernoulli's equation.  But it's
only happened in the last ten years or so.  Amazing, no?

See:

  Water striders launch underwater vortices
  http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v424/n6949/abs/nature01793.html



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William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
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On Wed, 30 Nov 2005, Harry Veeder wrote:

> If you really look at it closely it sounds like a mathematical trick which
> makes the mathematical predictions consistent with experiment.

No, it's based on the fact that if you trace the flows of a moving vortex
ring, you'll find that the ring carries a sphere-shape of fluid along with
it as it travels.  The surface of this sphere, the "separatrix," pushes
water around itself as it moves forward (just as a solid sphere would do.)

So if a paddle DOESN'T create a ring-vortex, then it's added mass will be
extremely low.  And if a paddle sheds the vortex that it has created, well
that's the same as launching an actual physical very genuine ball of
water.

> In newtonian mechanics you can't add mass to a system unless it is done by
> adding a force first.

If you're underwater and you fill a plastic garbage bag with water, then
the effective mass of the garbage bag has increased by hundreds of pounds!
Compare it to the effective mass of a flattened and folded-up garbage bag.
The "added" mass comes from the environment.  If we attach some of the
surrounding water or air to a moving paddle, then the paddle will "become"
massive, and it will accelerate that parcel of fluid if the paddle moves.

In other words... (and in big capital letters,)

   ALL FLIGHT IS BASED ON VORTEX-SHEDDING

Corellary: if your explanation of flight does not include vortex-shedding,
then it is wrong.







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On Fri, 2 Dec 2005, Harry Veeder wrote:

> Consider this question and comment I added to the wiki page on added-mass.
>
>  How does one determine how much of the surrounding mass to add? It sounds
>  like added-mass is an egineering fudge factor rather than good science.

Play with these java simulations if you want to visualize the separatrix
which surrounds a ring vortex (well, in 2D it would be a vortex-pair
subjected to wind)

  http://www.aoe.vt.edu/~devenpor/aoe5104/ifm/ifmex.html



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Hey now, that sounds exciting! When I was in sunday school, they taught us
  all this liberal stuff about loving your enemy and helping the poor, etc etc...
  Didn't make a lick of sense to me. What you're saying sounds a lot better.
   
  So what's the deal, how do we keep from getting exterminated? If the torah's
  involved, then it's the jews who'll be saved? No good for us then. Sorry
  about that old bean, with a name like Malloy I'm afraid you and I will be roasting
  with the a-rabs and the other heathens. OTOH it sounds like good news for
  that  Jed Rothwell fellow, he's got it made. Is it possible to pay someone or
  say some magic words to keep from gettin' smoked?
   
  Yrs truely, Felix King
   
  By the way, if the saved people are gonna be resettled in Israel, what happens
  to the Israeli's? The muslimoids have been tryin' to get rid of 'em for years, no
  luck there. And aren't they already pre-saved? Help me out here, this is all
  pretty confusing to a newbie.
  
thomas malloy <temalloy usfamily.net> wrote:
        I posted;
  

  And Felix King responded
  

  Wow! that sounds intriguing. How will humanity be cleansed?

thomas malloy <temalloy usfamily.net> wrote:
  You have to realize that if that scenario is correct, A: my paradigm  of the coming cleansing of humanity is wrong.  

  The planet will be emptied of it's population over a seven year period. The survivors, who have been divinely protected, will be resettled in Israel and a Torah based theocratic monarchy established. The details are in the Bible.
  

  And Steven Johnson responded
  

  >John Luc, in a huff, storms away shouting over his shoulder that he refuses to >believe in the possibility that the Universe is run that badly.
>
>You are in good company, Thomas. As you can see, even great star ship captains >experience their own moments of terror.
  

  Well Steven, what to you think of the prophesized theocratic monarchy, is it your worst nightmare?
  
>> B: There is a wrinkle in physics which will allow us to
>> vacation in distant galaxies the way we now vacation in
  >> the south pacific..  If it were to
  >> come true, we would be a blight on the galaxy,
  >> just ask the Native Americans.
>>

  >As astonishing as this might sound, I tend to agree with you on this one.
  

  No Steven, I'm not amazed at all. No one get out of bed thinking, what can I do to make a the world a worse place today? It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize the fact that we are a blight on the world, and that we are poisoning ourselves. The greatest problem that we face is not chemical pollution however, If we started cooperating, and stopped poisoning ourselves with consumerism and militarism and sexual immorality. We could remake the earth into a paradise. but this can't happen because of human evil. The continued existence of humanity is contingent on the expiation of evil. The expiation of evil however requires that it be defined, that's where Torah comes in.
    
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<DIV>Hey now, that sounds exciting! When I was in sunday school, they taught us</DIV>  <DIV>all this liberal stuff about loving your&nbsp;enemy and helping the poor, etc etc...</DIV>  <DIV>Didn't make a lick of sense to me. What you're saying sounds a lot better.</DIV>  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>  <DIV>So what's the deal, how do we keep from getting exterminated? If the torah's</DIV>  <DIV>involved, then it's the jews who'll be saved? No good for us then. Sorry</DIV>  <DIV>about that old bean, with a name like Malloy I'm afraid you and I will be roasting</DIV>  <DIV>with the a-rabs and the other heathens. OTOH it sounds like&nbsp;good news for</DIV>  <DIV>that &nbsp;Jed Rothwell fellow, he's got it made. Is it possible to pay someone or</DIV>  <DIV>say some magic words to keep from gettin' smoked?</DIV>  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>  <DIV>Yrs truely, Felix King</DIV>  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>  <DIV>By the way, if the saved people are gonna be resettled in Israel, what happens</DIV>  <DIV>to the Israeli's? The
 muslimoids have been tryin' to get rid of 'em for years, no</DIV>  <DIV>luck there. And aren't they already pre-saved? Help me out here, this is all</DIV>  <DIV>pretty confusing to a newbie.</DIV>  <DIV><BR><B><I>thomas malloy &lt;temalloy usfamily.net&gt;</I></B> wrote:</DIV>  <BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><!doctype html public "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">  <STYLE type=text/css><!--  blockquote, dl, ul, ol, li { padding-top: 0 ; padding-bottom: 0 }   --></STYLE>    <DIV>I posted;</DIV>  <DIV><BR></DIV>  <DIV>And Felix King responded</DIV>  <DIV><BR></DIV>  <BLOCKQUOTE cite type="cite">Wow! that sounds intriguing. How will humanity be cleansed?<BR><BR><I><B>thomas malloy &lt;temalloy@usfamily.net&gt;</B></I> wrote:<BR>  <BLOCKQUOTE>You have to realize that if that scenario is correct, A: my paradigm</BLOCKQUOTE>  <BLOCKQUOTE>of the coming cleansing of humanity is wrong.</BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>  <DIV><BR></DIV> 
 <DIV>The planet will be emptied of it's population over a seven year period. The survivors, who have been divinely protected, will be resettled in Israel and a Torah based theocratic monarchy established. The details are in the Bible.</DIV>  <DIV><BR></DIV>  <DIV>And Steven Johnson responded</DIV>  <DIV><BR></DIV>  <DIV>&gt;John Luc, in a huff, storms away shouting over his shoulder that he refuses to &gt;believe in the possibility that the Universe is run that badly.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;You are in good company, Thomas. As you can see, even great star ship captains &gt;experience their own moments of terror.</DIV>  <DIV><BR></DIV>  <DIV>Well Steven, what to you think of the prophesized theocratic monarchy, is it your worst nightmare?</DIV>  <DIV><BR>&gt;&gt; B: There is a wrinkle in physics which will allow us to<BR>&gt;&gt; vacation in distant galaxies the way we now vacation in</DIV>  <DIV>&gt;&gt; the south pacific..&nbsp; If it were to</DIV>  <DIV>&gt;&gt; come true, we would be a
 blight on the galaxy,</DIV>  <DIV>&gt;&gt; just ask the Native Americans.<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR></DIV>  <DIV>&gt;As astonishing as this might sound, I tend to agree with you on this one.</DIV>  <DIV><BR></DIV>  <DIV>No Steven, I'm not amazed at all. No one get out of bed thinking, what can I do to make a the world a worse place today? It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize the fact that we are a blight on the world, and that we are poisoning ourselves. The greatest problem that we face is not chemical pollution however, If we started cooperating, and stopped poisoning ourselves with consumerism and militarism and sexual immorality. We could remake the earth into a paradise. but this can't happen because of human evil. The continued existence of humanity is contingent on the expiation of evil. The expiation of evil however requires that it be defined, that's where Torah comes in.</DIV>  <div>  <CENTER><FONT size=3><BR>--- <A href="http://www.usfamily.net/dialup.html">USFamily.Net</A>
 - <B>$8.25/mo!</B> -- <A href="http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html">Highspeed</A> - <B>$19.99/mo!</B> ---<BR></FONT></CENTER>  <div></div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>  <DIV></DIV><p>
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> From: thomas malloy 

...

> And Steven Johnson responded
> 
> >John Luc, in a huff, storms away shouting over his shoulder that he 
> >refuses to >believe in the possibility that the Universe is run that 
> >badly.
> >
> >You are in good company, Thomas. As you can see, even great star 
> >ship captains >experience their own moments of terror.
> 
> Well Steven, what to you think of the prophesized theocratic 
> monarchy, is it your worst nightmare?

I doubt the universe is run that badly.

See comments below.

> >>  B: There is a wrinkle in physics which will allow us to
> >>  vacation in distant galaxies the way we now vacation in
> >>  the south pacific.. 
> >> [My being of the opinion that this if as fanciful a scenario
> >> as anything published in Amazing Stories, has no connection
> >> to the World View of anyone who sees reality through this
> >> paradigm. -- Reinserted by svj]
> >>  If it were to
> >>  come true, we would be a blight on the galaxy,
> >>  just ask the Native Americans.
> >>
> 

> >As astonishing as this might sound, I tend to agree with you on this one.
> 
> No Steven, I'm not amazed at all. No one get out of bed thinking, 
> what can I do to make a the world a worse place today? It doesn't 
> take a rocket scientist to realize the fact that we are a blight on 
> the world, and that we are poisoning ourselves. The greatest problem 
> that we face is not chemical pollution however, If we started 
> cooperating, and stopped poisoning ourselves with consumerism and 
> militarism and sexual immorality. We could remake the earth into a 
> paradise. but this can't happen because of human evil. The continued 
> existence of humanity is contingent on the expiation of evil. The 
> expiation of evil however requires that it be defined, that's where 
> Torah comes in.

Well... so much for remaining in agreement with you.

It is a wise person who can co-exist in harmony with the religious beliefs of others no matter how different they might be when compared to his own.

Problems arise, however, when those nursing their own prejudices and fears use the pretext of adhering to the texts of a sacred "religion" to justify their need to maintain their disapproval of others, their religious beliefs, and life-styles.

Thomas, you tell us the world would be a "paradise" if we started cooperating with one another. I agree, but then, you tack on additional requirements, like ridding the world of "consumerism", "militarism" and "sexual immorality." Well, personally I'm not too fond of "consumerism" and "militarism" either. 

But what about "sexual immorality?" Who defines "sexual immorality?" I presume, for you, what constitutes "sexual immorality" is defined in your personal interpretation of the Torah where you often seem to run back to in order to get all your discomforts answered. It would seem that everything for you is explicidly explained in exquisite detail in your interpretation of the Torah as if its contents were actually an elaborate Instruction Manual on how to live from sun up to sun down.

Speaking of "sexual immorality" you've let it be known in the past that you disapprove of the homosexual life-style. Tell me, Thomas, does the Author of this Instruction Manual tell you he will eventually get around to expiating homosexuals, like the couple my spouse and I've known for years who live next door to us, the couple who pay their taxes like you and me, the couple who recently completed a fantastic remodeling job on their humble home, the couple who have lived in a stable and loving relationship with each other for 17 years - like I hope I'll be able to accomplish with my spouse, the couple whom I have occasionally borrowed gardening tools from, the couple who occasionally comes over to share dissert with us, the couple who comes over to feed our cats when we are away on a weekend, the couple who because they are gay can not get health insurance to cover their life-partner in the same manner that I can for my spouse?

If your personal interpretation of that Author plans on expiating individuals like our gay next door neighbors I would have no problem telling him point blank (that is, to his face) that he is a narrow-minded, cruel, and bigoted creature and I'll have nothing to do with his administration. And if that creature then decided to expiate me for uttering blasphemy at least I would have the satisfaction of knowing that my last seconds of existence were spent standing up to a cruel and heartless bully. I'd rather not exist in a Universe that is so badly run that Arch-Tyrants feel justified in expiating my neighbor simply because they are gay.

Tell me, Thomas, what specifically is it that homosexuals do that makes your interpretation of that Author so uncomfortable that he must expiate them rather than following the Golden Rule? Is your Author incapable of loving thy neighbor as thy self?

Actually, Thomas, I'm not so much in disagreement with the Torah or its Author as I am of your personal interpretations.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

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Subject: Re: OT: Secrets of bee flight revealed
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BlankThe flight of the butterfly is every bit as interesting as the bee. =
They appear to " flutter" from flower to flower. Watching closely, they =
appear to be directionless in flight, yet wind up where they are going. =
As they flutter in an seeming aimless way, they can change their speed =
and direction at an amazing rate.

In our research studies in liquid vortex I have mentioned the formation =
of vortices shed off the main "rope". These vortices are short lived yet =
traverse the width and depth of the glass test tank. Some are vertical, =
diagonal and horizontal. They can be tracked using a thermister sensor =
since they produce a heat source.=20

I have often watched the grassland pasture at our ranch. The wind =
undulates the grass in waves. This undulation is caused by horizontal =
wind vortexes. Butterflys can fly in these winds and reach flowers as =
they select. How can this be possible when the body weight and wing area =
doesn't make sense for flight, much less guidance? The answer may be =
found in some of Schauberger's papers that describe how a fish can climb =
a waterfall. The fish finds the reverse vortex inside the "rope" and is =
partially " catapulted up the "rope".=20

This would explain the butterfly's ability to fly against a wind and end =
up at the next flower. It would explain why the butterfly's speed and =
direction can change instantly. The butterfly could have sensors that =
detect the random wind vortexes and uses the vortex energy and position =
for direction and movement like the fish in waterfall. Pity we can't =
"see" wind vortexes, perhaps all birds can.
Richard

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<DIV>The flight of the butterfly is every bit as interesting as the bee. =
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amazing=20
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<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>In our research studies in liquid vortex I have mentioned the =
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traverse=20
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and=20
horizontal. They can be tracked using a thermister sensor since they =
produce a=20
heat source. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>I have often watched the grassland pasture at our ranch. The wind =
undulates=20
the grass in waves. This undulation is caused by horizontal wind =
vortexes.=20
Butterflys can fly in these winds and reach flowers as they select. How =
can this=20
be possible when the body weight and wing area doesn't make sense for =
flight,=20
much less guidance? The answer&nbsp;may be&nbsp;found in some of =
Schauberger's=20
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the=20
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"rope".=20
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<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>This would explain the butterfly's ability to fly against a wind=20
and&nbsp;end up at the next flower. It would explain why the butterfly's =

speed&nbsp;and direction can change instantly. The butterfly could have =
sensors=20
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<P>Richard</P></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec  4 21:10:00 2005
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Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 00:09:20 -0500
From: Harry Veeder <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: Vortex motion
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For those people who observe vortices, I am curious about how vortices
travel in flowing water.

If a vortex is created in a stream of water which is flowing with uniform
velocity, will the centre of the vortex move in the same direction as the
stream
or will the centre veer right or left depending on its rotation?

Harry 

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Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 00:57:03 -0500
From: Harry Veeder <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: OT: Secrets of bee flight revealed
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William Beaty wrote:

> On Wed, 30 Nov 2005, Harry Veeder wrote:
> 
>> If you really look at it closely it sounds like a mathematical trick which
>> makes the mathematical predictions consistent with experiment.
> 
> No, it's based on the fact that if you trace the flows of a moving vortex
> ring, you'll find that the ring carries a sphere-shape of fluid along with
> it as it travels.  The surface of this sphere, the "separatrix," pushes
> water around itself as it moves forward (just as a solid sphere would do.)

Ok.
 
> So if a paddle DOESN'T create a ring-vortex, then it's added mass will be
> extremely low.  And if a paddle sheds the vortex that it has created, well
> that's the same as launching an actual physical very genuine ball of
> water.

Yes and the bigger the vortices the greater the effort by the paddler.
 
>> In newtonian mechanics you can't add mass to a system unless it is done by
>> adding a force first.
> 
> If you're underwater and you fill a plastic garbage bag with water, then
> the effective mass of the garbage bag has increased by hundreds of pounds!

>
> Compare it to the effective mass of a flattened and folded-up garbage bag.
> The "added" mass comes from the environment.  If we attach some of the
> surrounding water or air to a moving paddle, then the paddle will "become"
> massive, and it will accelerate that parcel of fluid if the paddle moves.

The point is you begin your analysis of the forces on a given body in a
fluid, whether the body is an empty plastic bag or a bag full of water or a
paddle, the added-mass is a consequence of the acceleration of the body
through the fluid.

What puzzles me is how one goes about calculating how much fluid mass
to add to the paddle's. One can learn this empirically or with physical
models but theoretically it seems more like a matter of informed guesswork
to me.

> In other words... (and in big capital letters,)
> 
> ALL FLIGHT IS BASED ON VORTEX-SHEDDING
> 
> Corellary: if your explanation of flight does not include vortex-shedding,
> then it is wrong.


May we say all flight begins with added-mass and is followed by the
added-mass being shed as a vortex?

Harry


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From: Standing Bear <rockcast earthlink.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Intergalactic War..verrry OT
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 01:52:59 -0500
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Please below my reply find all contortions.  Need a program to follow 'em.  
Thats p-r-o-g-r-a-m, not p-o-g-r-o-m!  Seems as this thread has ludicrousely 
contorted into a religious one with a bent not accustomed to, a Judaic one.  
Rarely have I heard any evangelization for Judaism in my life, but evidently 
there is a first time for everything.  Maybe what Thomas and others are 
refering to is the holy roller idea of the '144,000', something like the 
'4400' on the Sci-Fi channel.  Lots of rollin' in the aisles and froth at the 
mouth and handle snakes types of cults talk about the '144,000.  Maybe that 
is all the modern Israel has room to handle to resettle an indigestible 
radical Christian minority in its midst amongst the jihadi, the parsees, the 
dervishers, the sunnis and the put upon but usually honest shias.
  As for space travel relegated to 'Amazing Stories'.  I might take up science 
fiction writing myself after hearing that amazing statement.   Truly amazing 
for appearing on this list.  This is supposed to be a scientific list, not a 
religious one.  
   There is a slightly off kilter article appearing in this months 'Scientific 
American' concerning a possible granular nature of
space time itself and of even Einstein doubting himself in his later years
and bewailing that if his doubt was right, then all modern physics would
go out the window.  I think that the eventual result will be slightly more
Hegelian and incorporate some of Albert's ideas in a new overarching
theory set constituting a superset of his and many other ideas.  Some of
these ideas may concern an analogy with sound wave nature with respect
to spacetime.  As such, separate reference frames are postulated and
a new look at Dr Carazani's theory of Autodynamics may come into play
as well.
    Most current 'visualizations' of black hole gravitational dynamics involve
the concept of a 'funnel' in spacetime.  Such is two dimensional thinking!
How about an expansion of the sound wave concept of compression and
rarefaction?  Here black holes would distort space as a huge but finite at
some point compression, and intergalactic spaces as rarefactions.  Other 
rarefactions may exist as well.  Eddies in the continuum may manifest as
wormholes.  Energy forms of sufficient intensity to manipulate space in
this manner may utterly circumvent relativity as all velocities are relative 
to something in the space they are in.  If space itself is manipulated to 
shrink space in front of a volume of space that somehow remains unaffected by 
the distortion yet controls and powers it, and if space behind this volume
is expanded by similar controlled forces so that the three dimensional web of 
the fabric of space and the three dimensional web of the fabric of time is 
left minimally distorted at distance from the disturbance;  then this volume 
will be able to translate itself across vast distances virtually without 
moving, thereby becoming immune to inertial effects in the process since it 
exists in its own reference frame in the midst of the distortion.
  Einstein himself mentioned about the ultimate strangeness of the universe.
   The time to accomplish this travel may prove to be almost nil.  Should
the ability to cross temporal lines be possible as well, it may well be that
causality preservation will be a la Thomas Wolfe.  You cannot go home
again.  You could go back, but not on the same vector in three dimensional
temporal coordinates.  You would be in a different reality that would look the
same  but not be.  See Jane run!  No Jane, you cannot do in your grandpa,
as the one you try to do in will not be your grandpa,  but someone else, or 
not even exist.

All Ideas and text in this above letter copyrighted. All rights reserved. 
Copyright 2005 by L Castleton








On Sunday 04 December 2005 19:21, Felix King wrote:
> Hey now, that sounds exciting! When I was in sunday school, they taught us
>   all this liberal stuff about loving your enemy and helping the poor, etc
> etc... Didn't make a lick of sense to me. What you're saying sounds a lot
> better.
>
>   So what's the deal, how do we keep from getting exterminated? If the
> torah's involved, then it's the jews who'll be saved? No good for us then.
> Sorry about that old bean, with a name like Malloy I'm afraid you and I
> will be roasting with the a-rabs and the other heathens. OTOH it sounds
> like good news for that  Jed Rothwell fellow, he's got it made. Is it
> possible to pay someone or say some magic words to keep from gettin'
> smoked?
>
>   Yrs truely, Felix King
>
>   By the way, if the saved people are gonna be resettled in Israel, what
> happens to the Israeli's? The muslimoids have been tryin' to get rid of 'em
> for years, no luck there. And aren't they already pre-saved? Help me out
> here, this is all pretty confusing to a newbie.
>
> thomas malloy <temalloy usfamily.net> wrote:
>         I posted;
>
>
>   And Felix King responded
>
>
>   Wow! that sounds intriguing. How will humanity be cleansed?
>
> thomas malloy <temalloy usfamily.net> wrote:
>   You have to realize that if that scenario is correct, A: my paradigm  of
> the coming cleansing of humanity is wrong.
>
>   The planet will be emptied of it's population over a seven year period.
> The survivors, who have been divinely protected, will be resettled in
> Israel and a Torah based theocratic monarchy established. The details are
> in the Bible.
>
>
>   And Steven Johnson responded
>
>   >John Luc, in a huff, storms away shouting over his shoulder that he
>   > refuses to >believe in the possibility that the Universe is run that
>   > badly.
> >
> >You are in good company, Thomas. As you can see, even great star ship
> > captains >experience their own moments of terror.
>
>   Well Steven, what to you think of the prophesized theocratic monarchy, is
> it your worst nightmare?
>
> >> B: There is a wrinkle in physics which will allow us to
> >> vacation in distant galaxies the way we now vacation in
> >>
>   >> the south pacific..  If it were to
>   >> come true, we would be a blight on the galaxy,
>   >> just ask the Native Americans.
>   >
>   >As astonishing as this might sound, I tend to agree with you on this
>   > one.
>
>   No Steven, I'm not amazed at all. No one get out of bed thinking, what
> can I do to make a the world a worse place today? It doesn't take a rocket
> scientist to realize the fact that we are a blight on the world, and that
> we are poisoning ourselves. The greatest problem that we face is not
> chemical pollution however, If we started cooperating, and stopped
> poisoning ourselves with consumerism and militarism and sexual immorality.
> We could remake the earth into a paradise. but this can't happen because of
> human evil. The continued existence of humanity is contingent on the
> expiation of evil. The expiation of evil however requires that it be
> defined, that's where Torah comes in.
>
> --- USFamily.Net - $8.25/mo! -- Highspeed - $19.99/mo! ---
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>  Yahoo! Personals
>  Skip the bars and set-ups and start using Yahoo! Personals for free

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From: Standing Bear <rockcast earthlink.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Intergalactic War - Oh, so OT!
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 02:20:01 -0500
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Sexual 'immorality'!  What a catch all term misused by hypocrites!  How about
the wife of Lot.  She was in the Old Testament which is really the Torah.  She 
was killed merely for looking back on Sodom.  For LOOKING fer cats sake.  Now 
comes ole Lot himself.  He boffs his own daughters so they can have kids.  
Nowhere in the Old Testament (torah) is this decried as not 'moral'.
Yet the old testament (torah) is very specific about 'men lying with men'.
Seems as the kinds of relationships that do not reproduce get called 
'immoral'.
   Reach a little further.  Where in the world did the women come from for
the children of Adam and Eva....sorry.... Eve to mate with to 'begat' their 
descendants?  What kind of origin had these people?  Obviousely God did not
'make' them or he would have said so!  Holy books....inspired by God...etc.
                ////SO WHO MADE THEM?////////////

Most Abrahamist religionists cannot answer this to the logical satisfaction of 
anyone, but are quite capable of becoming belligerent and increduluous that
anyone would 'dare' question their dogmas.  Religion is all about 'faith', for 
without faith, its' existance could not logically stand..

With all this thinking about the Da Vinci code, somebody is going to think
someday about the human genetic code.  Vast stretches of it code for nothing 
yet are quite stable.  What code is  buried there by our bio-engineers, if 
any?  Religionists be very afraid, especially Abrahamists.  There are other
people in the world, not of the four main branches of Abrahamism 
(Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Bahai) who are happily looking into this right
now.  With computers today obeying Moore's law, it is only a matter of time.
This cannot be classified, it is in every gram of our bodies.  These 
researchers all over the world and out of reach of restrictive laws cannot be 
told it is a weather balloon or the planet venus at the point of a gun to 
their families, like Roswell was suppressed.  Time will tell what they find.
May just find a vast reference, some of which may have military value....along 
with our real evolutionary history.  Lots of incentive for all nations to 
study.....quickly.   For many reasons!

Standing Bear








On Sunday 04 December 2005 20:52, OrionWorks wrote:
> > From: thomas malloy
>
> ...
>
> > And Steven Johnson responded
> >
> > >John Luc, in a huff, storms away shouting over his shoulder that he
> > >refuses to >believe in the possibility that the Universe is run that
> > >badly.
> > >
> > >You are in good company, Thomas. As you can see, even great star
> > >ship captains >experience their own moments of terror.
> >
> > Well Steven, what to you think of the prophesized theocratic
> > monarchy, is it your worst nightmare?
>
> I doubt the universe is run that badly.
>
> See comments below.
>
> > >>  B: There is a wrinkle in physics which will allow us to
> > >>  vacation in distant galaxies the way we now vacation in
> > >>  the south pacific..
> > >> [My being of the opinion that this if as fanciful a scenario
> > >> as anything published in Amazing Stories, has no connection
> > >> to the World View of anyone who sees reality through this
> > >> paradigm. -- Reinserted by svj]
> > >>  If it were to
> > >>  come true, we would be a blight on the galaxy,
> > >>  just ask the Native Americans.
> > >
> > >As astonishing as this might sound, I tend to agree with you on this
> > > one.
> >
> > No Steven, I'm not amazed at all. No one get out of bed thinking,
> > what can I do to make a the world a worse place today? It doesn't
> > take a rocket scientist to realize the fact that we are a blight on
> > the world, and that we are poisoning ourselves. The greatest problem
> > that we face is not chemical pollution however, If we started
> > cooperating, and stopped poisoning ourselves with consumerism and
> > militarism and sexual immorality. We could remake the earth into a
> > paradise. but this can't happen because of human evil. The continued
> > existence of humanity is contingent on the expiation of evil. The
> > expiation of evil however requires that it be defined, that's where
> > Torah comes in.
>
> Well... so much for remaining in agreement with you.
>
> It is a wise person who can co-exist in harmony with the religious beliefs
> of others no matter how different they might be when compared to his own.
>
> Problems arise, however, when those nursing their own prejudices and fears
> use the pretext of adhering to the texts of a sacred "religion" to justify
> their need to maintain their disapproval of others, their religious
> beliefs, and life-styles.
>
> Thomas, you tell us the world would be a "paradise" if we started
> cooperating with one another. I agree, but then, you tack on additional
> requirements, like ridding the world of "consumerism", "militarism" and
> "sexual immorality." Well, personally I'm not too fond of "consumerism" and
> "militarism" either.
>
> But what about "sexual immorality?" Who defines "sexual immorality?" I
> presume, for you, what constitutes "sexual immorality" is defined in your
> personal interpretation of the Torah where you often seem to run back to in
> order to get all your discomforts answered. It would seem that everything
> for you is explicidly explained in exquisite detail in your interpretation
> of the Torah as if its contents were actually an elaborate Instruction
> Manual on how to live from sun up to sun down.
>
> Speaking of "sexual immorality" you've let it be known in the past that you
> disapprove of the homosexual life-style. Tell me, Thomas, does the Author
> of this Instruction Manual tell you he will eventually get around to
> expiating homosexuals, like the couple my spouse and I've known for years
> who live next door to us, the couple who pay their taxes like you and me,
> the couple who recently completed a fantastic remodeling job on their
> humble home, the couple who have lived in a stable and loving relationship
> with each other for 17 years - like I hope I'll be able to accomplish with
> my spouse, the couple whom I have occasionally borrowed gardening tools
> from, the couple who occasionally comes over to share dissert with us, the
> couple who comes over to feed our cats when we are away on a weekend, the
> couple who because they are gay can not get health insurance to cover their
> life-partner in the same manner that I can for my spouse?
>
> If your personal interpretation of that Author plans on expiating
> individuals like our gay next door neighbors I would have no problem
> telling him point blank (that is, to his face) that he is a narrow-minded,
> cruel, and bigoted creature and I'll have nothing to do with his
> administration. And if that creature then decided to expiate me for
> uttering blasphemy at least I would have the satisfaction of knowing that
> my last seconds of existence were spent standing up to a cruel and
> heartless bully. I'd rather not exist in a Universe that is so badly run
> that Arch-Tyrants feel justified in expiating my neighbor simply because
> they are gay.
>
> Tell me, Thomas, what specifically is it that homosexuals do that makes
> your interpretation of that Author so uncomfortable that he must expiate
> them rather than following the Golden Rule? Is your Author incapable of
> loving thy neighbor as thy self?
>
> Actually, Thomas, I'm not so much in disagreement with the Torah or its
> Author as I am of your personal interpretations.
>
> Regards,
> Steven Vincent Johnson
> www.OrionWorks.com

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This is the link to the video of my talk on Thursday at ICCF12. Towards the 
end of my talk, I included an 8.5 minute video which I produced from 
footage taken in a Canadian laboratory. Unfortunately I have to delay 
putting that clip onto the Internet at this time for legal reasons which 
are beyond my control.

"Introduction to The Hydraulic-Electrostatic Cold Fusion Method"
12th International Conference on Condensed Matter, Yokohama, Japan, Dec. 1, 
2005
Requires Windows Media Player  /  Runtime: 20 minutes
http://interface.audiovideoweb.com/lnk/ca25win25198/ICCF12/KRIVIT-ICCF12.wmv/play.asx


This is the link to a video of an interview I made with Martin Fleischmann 
in Edmonton, Canada on June 8, 2005 after several days of observing the new 
hydraulic-electrostatic cold fusion method.
Requires Windows Media Player / Runtime: 4.5 minutes
http://interface.audiovideoweb.com/lnk/ca25win25198/June62005/2005FleischmannM-June8.wmv/play.asx



Steven B. Krivit
Editor, New Energy Times
Executive Director, New Energy Institute Inc.

--=====================_954375687==.ALT
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<html>
<body>
This is the link to the video of my talk on Thursday at ICCF12. Towards
the end of my talk, I included an 8.5 minute video which I produced from
footage taken in a Canadian laboratory. Unfortunately I have to delay
putting that clip onto the Internet at this time for legal reasons which
are beyond my control. <br><br>
&quot;Introduction to The Hydraulic-Electrostatic Cold Fusion
Method&quot;<i> <br>
</i>12th International Conference on Condensed Matter, Yokohama, Japan,
Dec. 1, 2005<br>
Requires Windows Media Player&nbsp; /&nbsp; Runtime: 20 minutes<br>
<a href="http://interface.audiovideoweb.com/lnk/ca25win25198/ICCF12/KRIVIT-ICCF12.wmv/play.asx" eudora="autourl">
http://interface.audiovideoweb.com/lnk/ca25win25198/ICCF12/KRIVIT-ICCF12.wmv/play.asx<br>
<br>
<br>
</a>This is the link to a video of an interview I made with Martin
Fleischmann in Edmonton, Canada on June 8, 2005 after several days of
observing the new hydraulic-electrostatic cold fusion method.<br>
Requires Windows Media Player / Runtime: 4.5 minutes<br>
<a href="http://interface.audiovideoweb.com/lnk/ca25win25198/June62005/2005FleischmannM-June8.wmv/play.asx" eudora="autourl">
http://interface.audiovideoweb.com/lnk/ca25win25198/June62005/2005FleischmannM-June8.wmv/play.asx<br>
<br>
<br>
</a><x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
Steven B. Krivit<br>
Editor, New Energy Times<br>
Executive Director, New Energy Institute Inc.<br>
</body>
</html>

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BlankSticking my lurker's head above the parapet may I comment on the =
flight of the butterfly.
This has always fascinated me, and Richard's observations have triggered =
some hopefully useful thoughts.

What if the wings are the sensors of IR from the various vortices in the =
air movement as well as small variations in the local velocity dynamics? =
 Might it also be within the realms of possibility that the patternation =
of the wing serves more than mating attraction, but also an =
electro-cellular function.   Their wing action is very stop and go which =
might be useful for direction-finding while the wings are stationary in =
flight.

Having watched the recent BBC series by Richard Attenborough on "Life in =
the undergrowth"; the extraordinary capabilities of the minutest =
life-forms with almost zero brain volume stirs the imagination to =
extreme limits.

Norman Horwood   Berkshire UK
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: RC Macaulay=20
  To: vortex-l eskimo.com=20
  Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 4:27 AM
  Subject: Re: OT: Secrets of bee flight revealed


  The flight of the butterfly is every bit as interesting as the bee. =
They appear to " flutter" from flower to flower. Watching closely, they =
appear to be directionless in flight, yet wind up where they are going. =
As they flutter in an seeming aimless way, they can change their speed =
and direction at an amazing rate.

  In our research studies in liquid vortex I have mentioned the =
formation of vortices shed off the main "rope". These vortices are short =
lived yet traverse the width and depth of the glass test tank. Some are =
vertical, diagonal and horizontal. They can be tracked using a =
thermister sensor since they produce a heat source.=20

  I have often watched the grassland pasture at our ranch. The wind =
undulates the grass in waves. This undulation is caused by horizontal =
wind vortexes. Butterflys can fly in these winds and reach flowers as =
they select. How can this be possible when the body weight and wing area =
doesn't make sense for flight, much less guidance? The answer may be =
found in some of Schauberger's papers that describe how a fish can climb =
a waterfall. The fish finds the reverse vortex inside the "rope" and is =
partially " catapulted up the "rope".=20

  This would explain the butterfly's ability to fly against a wind and =
end up at the next flower. It would explain why the butterfly's speed =
and direction can change instantly. The butterfly could have sensors =
that detect the random wind vortexes and uses the vortex energy and =
position for direction and movement like the fish in waterfall. Pity we =
can't "see" wind vortexes, perhaps all birds can.
  Richard

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background=3Dcid:003d01c5f954$2eeb0350$da027841 xptower>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>Sticking my lurker's head =
above the=20
parapet may I comment on the flight of the butterfly.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>This has always fascinated =
me, and=20
Richard's observations have triggered some hopefully useful=20
thoughts.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>What if the wings are the =
sensors of IR=20
from the various vortices in the air movement as well as small =
variations in the=20
local velocity dynamics?&nbsp; Might it also be within the realms of =
possibility=20
that the patternation of the wing serves more than&nbsp;mating =
attraction, but=20
also an electro-cellular function.&nbsp;&nbsp; Their wing action is very =
stop=20
and go which might be useful for direction-finding while the wings are=20
stationary in flight.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>Having watched the recent=20
BBC&nbsp;series by Richard Attenborough on "Life in the undergrowth"; =
the=20
extraordinary capabilities of the minutest life-forms with almost zero =
brain=20
volume stirs the imagination to extreme limits.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>Norman Horwood&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Berkshire=20
UK</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3Dwalhalla cvtv.net href=3D"mailto:walhalla@cvtv.net">RC =
Macaulay</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dvortex-l eskimo.com=20
  href=3D"mailto:vortex-l eskimo.com">vortex-l@eskimo.com</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, December 05, 2005 =
4:27=20
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: OT: Secrets of bee =
flight=20
  revealed</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV>The flight of the butterfly is every bit as interesting as the =
bee. They=20
  appear to " flutter" from flower to flower. Watching closely, they =
appear to=20
  be directionless in flight, yet wind up where they are going. As they =
flutter=20
  in an seeming aimless way, they can change their speed and direction =
at an=20
  amazing rate.</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>In our research studies in liquid vortex I have mentioned the =
formation=20
  of vortices shed off the main "rope". These vortices are short lived =
yet=20
  traverse the width and depth of the glass test tank. Some are =
vertical,=20
  diagonal and horizontal. They can be tracked using a thermister sensor =
since=20
  they produce a heat source. </DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>I have often watched the grassland pasture at our ranch. The wind =

  undulates the grass in waves. This undulation is caused by horizontal =
wind=20
  vortexes. Butterflys can fly in these winds and reach flowers as they =
select.=20
  How can this be possible when the body weight and wing area doesn't =
make sense=20
  for flight, much less guidance? The answer&nbsp;may be&nbsp;found in =
some of=20
  Schauberger's papers that describe how a fish can climb a waterfall. =
The fish=20
  finds the reverse vortex inside the "rope" and is partially " =
catapulted up=20
  the "rope". </DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>This would explain the butterfly's ability to fly against a wind=20
  and&nbsp;end up at the next flower. It would explain why the =
butterfly's=20
  speed&nbsp;and direction can change instantly. The butterfly could =
have=20
  sensors that detect the random wind vortexes and uses the vortex =
energy and=20
  position for direction and movement like the&nbsp;fish in waterfall. =
Pity we=20
  can't "see" wind vortexes, perhaps all birds can.</DIV>
  <P>Richard</P></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec  5 06:55:41 2005
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Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 14:54:31 +0000
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Grimer <f.grimer grimer2.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: OT: Secrets of bee flight revealed
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I've been fascinated by Bill Beaty's account 
of vortex phenomena. Interestingly enough, 
when I was working at Building Research, 
Graham Armer realised that the information 
given by small anemometers was virtually 
useless in determining the wind load on large 
multi-storey buildings, He said that the wind 
had to be treated as though it was large 
balls of air hitting the building and that scale 
effects were all important in this regard.

Frank Grimer

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References: <004201c5f954$30f8ada0$da027841 xptower> <002901c5f994$95529320$0be68b56@NH2>
Subject: Re: OT: Secrets of bee flight revealed
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BlankHi Norman,
Neat observations you have. As one may surmise, an entire host of =
unknowns stand waiting understanding in the advancement of science. =
Perhaps the greatest obstacle to date has been the limited capacity of =
human minds to grasp the magnitude of the wonders of creation.=20
The primary function of the butterfly wing may be far removed from a =
propulsion device. The massive size of the wing ( as measured against a =
bee wing) is an apparent contradiction. The large wing may be used =
mostly for stabilizing. Surely the patternation serves multiple purposes =
other than mating. After all, "colors" are "music" in another realm of =
understanding. As the poet stated.. oh ,what fools we mortals be..   add =
blind to that thought <grin>.
Richard
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: NORMAN HORWOOD=20
  To: vortex-l eskimo.com=20
  Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 6:08 AM
  Subject: Re: OT: Secrets of bee flight revealed


  Sticking my lurker's head above the parapet may I comment on the =
flight of the butterfly.
  This has always fascinated me, and Richard's observations have =
triggered some hopefully useful thoughts.

  What if the wings are the sensors of IR from the various vortices in =
the air movement as well as small variations in the local velocity =
dynamics?  Might it also be within the realms of possibility that the =
patternation of the wing serves more than mating attraction, but also an =
electro-cellular function.   Their wing action is very stop and go which =
might be useful for direction-finding while the wings are stationary in =
flight.

  Having watched the recent BBC series by Richard Attenborough on "Life =
in the undergrowth"; the extraordinary capabilities of the minutest =
life-forms with almost zero brain volume stirs the imagination to =
extreme limits.

  Norman Horwood   Berkshire UK
    ----- Original Message -----=20
    From: RC Macaulay=20
    To: vortex-l eskimo.com=20
    Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 4:27 AM
    Subject: Re: OT: Secrets of bee flight revealed


    The flight of the butterfly is every bit as interesting as the bee. =
They appear to " flutter" from flower to flower. Watching closely, they =
appear to be directionless in flight, yet wind up where they are going. =
As they flutter in an seeming aimless way, they can change their speed =
and direction at an amazing rate.

    In our research studies in liquid vortex I have mentioned the =
formation of vortices shed off the main "rope". These vortices are short =
lived yet traverse the width and depth of the glass test tank. Some are =
vertical, diagonal and horizontal. They can be tracked using a =
thermister sensor since they produce a heat source.=20

    I have often watched the grassland pasture at our ranch. The wind =
undulates the grass in waves. This undulation is caused by horizontal =
wind vortexes. Butterflys can fly in these winds and reach flowers as =
they select. How can this be possible when the body weight and wing area =
doesn't make sense for flight, much less guidance? The answer may be =
found in some of Schauberger's papers that describe how a fish can climb =
a waterfall. The fish finds the reverse vortex inside the "rope" and is =
partially " catapulted up the "rope".=20

    This would explain the butterfly's ability to fly against a wind and =
end up at the next flower. It would explain why the butterfly's speed =
and direction can change instantly. The butterfly could have sensors =
that detect the random wind vortexes and uses the vortex energy and =
position for direction and movement like the fish in waterfall. Pity we =
can't "see" wind vortexes, perhaps all birds can.
    Richard

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<BODY id=3DridBody bgColor=3D#ffffff=20
background=3Dcid:003d01c5f954$2eeb0350$da027841 xptower>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana>Hi Norman,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana>Neat observations you have. As one may =
surmise, an=20
entire host of unknowns stand waiting understanding in the advancement =
of=20
science. Perhaps the greatest obstacle to date has been the limited =
capacity of=20
human minds to grasp the magnitude of the wonders of creation. =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana>The primary function of the butterfly wing may =
be far=20
removed from a propulsion device. The massive size of the wing ( as =
measured=20
against a bee wing) is an apparent contradiction. The large wing may be =
used=20
mostly for stabilizing. Surely the patternation serves multiple purposes =
other=20
than mating. After all, "colors" are "music" in another realm of =
understanding.=20
As the poet stated.. oh ,what fools&nbsp;we mortals be..&nbsp;&nbsp; add =
blind=20
to that thought &lt;grin&gt;.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana>Richard</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3Dnorman.horwood btinternet.com=20
  href=3D"mailto:norman.horwood btinternet.com">NORMAN HORWOOD</A> =
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dvortex-l eskimo.com=20
  href=3D"mailto:vortex-l eskimo.com">vortex-l@eskimo.com</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, December 05, 2005 =
6:08=20
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: OT: Secrets of bee =
flight=20
  revealed</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>Sticking my lurker's head =
above the=20
  parapet may I comment on the flight of the butterfly.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>This has always =
fascinated me, and=20
  Richard's observations have triggered some hopefully useful=20
  thoughts.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>What if the wings are the =
sensors of=20
  IR from the various vortices in the air movement as well as small =
variations=20
  in the local velocity dynamics?&nbsp; Might it also be within the =
realms of=20
  possibility that the patternation of the wing serves more =
than&nbsp;mating=20
  attraction, but also an electro-cellular function.&nbsp;&nbsp; Their =
wing=20
  action is very stop and go which might be useful for direction-finding =
while=20
  the wings are stationary in flight.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>Having watched the recent =

  BBC&nbsp;series by Richard Attenborough on "Life in the undergrowth"; =
the=20
  extraordinary capabilities of the minutest life-forms with almost zero =
brain=20
  volume stirs the imagination to extreme limits.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>Norman =
Horwood&nbsp;&nbsp; Berkshire=20
  UK</FONT></DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
  style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
    <DIV=20
    style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
    <A title=3Dwalhalla cvtv.net href=3D"mailto:walhalla@cvtv.net">RC =
Macaulay</A>=20
    </DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dvortex-l eskimo.com=20
    href=3D"mailto:vortex-l eskimo.com">vortex-l@eskimo.com</A> </DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, December 05, =
2005 4:27=20
    AM</DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: OT: Secrets of =
bee flight=20
    revealed</DIV>
    <DIV><BR></DIV>
    <DIV>The flight of the butterfly is every bit as interesting as the =
bee.=20
    They appear to " flutter" from flower to flower. Watching closely, =
they=20
    appear to be directionless in flight, yet wind up where they are =
going. As=20
    they flutter in an seeming aimless way, they can change their speed =
and=20
    direction at an amazing rate.</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>In our research studies in liquid vortex I have mentioned the =
formation=20
    of vortices shed off the main "rope". These vortices are short lived =
yet=20
    traverse the width and depth of the glass test tank. Some are =
vertical,=20
    diagonal and horizontal. They can be tracked using a thermister =
sensor since=20
    they produce a heat source. </DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>I have often watched the grassland pasture at our ranch. The =
wind=20
    undulates the grass in waves. This undulation is caused by =
horizontal wind=20
    vortexes. Butterflys can fly in these winds and reach flowers as =
they=20
    select. How can this be possible when the body weight and wing area =
doesn't=20
    make sense for flight, much less guidance? The answer&nbsp;may =
be&nbsp;found=20
    in some of Schauberger's papers that describe how a fish can climb a =

    waterfall. The fish finds the reverse vortex inside the "rope" and =
is=20
    partially " catapulted up the "rope". </DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>This would explain the butterfly's ability to fly against a =
wind=20
    and&nbsp;end up at the next flower. It would explain why the =
butterfly's=20
    speed&nbsp;and direction can change instantly. The butterfly could =
have=20
    sensors that detect the random wind vortexes and uses the vortex =
energy and=20
    position for direction and movement like the&nbsp;fish in waterfall. =
Pity we=20
    can't "see" wind vortexes, perhaps all birds can.</DIV>
    <P>Richard</P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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Steve,

I'm sure you have seen the writups:
http://blake.montclair.edu/~kowalskil/cf/226yang.html
http://blake.montclair.edu/~kowalskil/cf/216koldamasov.html

A relevant question: is there any indication that the reaction slows or =
ceases after a certain time frame - unless new liquid (oil or heavy =
water) is replaces the "spent" liquid ?


Jones

Note to Jeff Fink:
This experiment appears to be showing evidence of nuclear reaction from =
cavitation !
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Steve,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I'm sure you have seen the =
writups:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"http://blake.montclair.edu/~kowalskil/cf/226yang.html">http://bla=
ke.montclair.edu/~kowalskil/cf/226yang.html</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"http://blake.montclair.edu/~kowalskil/cf/216koldamasov.html">http=
://blake.montclair.edu/~kowalskil/cf/216koldamasov.html</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>A relevant question: is there any =
indication that=20
the reaction slows or ceases after a certain time frame - unless new =
liquid (oil=20
or heavy water) is replaces the "spent" liquid ?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Jones</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Note to Jeff Fink:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>This experiment appears to be showing =
evidence of=20
nuclear reaction from cavitation !</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec  5 09:21:55 2005
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http://www.opensourceenergy.com/C17/News%20Viewer/default.aspx?ID=1171

In a paper published in the November 27th issue of PLoS Genetics, a 
research team led by scientists at The Institute for Genomic Research 
(TIGR) report the determination and analysis of the complete genome 
sequence of this organism. Isolated from a hot spring on the Russian 
volcanic island of Kunashir, this microbe lives almost entirely on 
carbon monoxide. While consuming this normally poisonous gas, the 
microbe mixes it with water, producing hydrogen gas as waste.

As the world increasingly considers hydrogen as a potential biofuel, 
technology could benefit from having the genomes of such microbes. "C. 
hydrogenoformans is one of the fastest-growing microbes that can 
convert water and carbon monoxide to hydrogen," remarks TIGR 
evolutionary biologist Jonathan Eisen, senior author of the PLoS 
Genetics study. "So if you're interested in making clean fuels, this 
microbe makes an excellent starting point."

<more>
___________________________________________________
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec  5 09:27:53 2005
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From: OrionWorks <orionworks charter.net>
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Subject: Re: Intergalactic War - Oh, so OT!
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> From: Standing Bear

...

> With all this thinking about the Da Vinci code, somebody
> is going to think someday about the human genetic code. 
> Vast stretches of it code for nothing yet are quite
> stable.  What code is  buried there by our bio-
> engineers, if any?  Religionists be very afraid,
> especially Abrahamists.  There are other people in the
> world, not of the four main branches of Abrahamism
> (Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Bahai) who are happily
> looking into this right now.  With computers today
> obeying Moore's law, it is only a matter of time.
> This cannot be classified, it is in every gram of our
> bodies.  These researchers all over the world and out of
> reach of restrictive laws cannot be told it is a
> weather balloon or the planet venus at the point of
> a gun to their families, like Roswell was suppressed. 
> Time will tell what they find.
> May just find a vast reference, some of which may have
> military value....along with our real evolutionary
> history.  Lots of incentive for all nations to 
> study.....quickly.   For many reasons!
> 
> Standing Bear
> 

It think it's amusing to note here that a number of UFO proponents strongly believe in the ID (Intelligent Design) theory, only that it wasn't G-d who was doing the designing.

Perhaps some day soon, in an obscure lab, probably in Korea, a little machine will spit out the following genetic translation:

Property of The Zeta Reticuli Consortium (R), (TM), (C)
- Version 1.2203.A.4-7789743
- All rights Reserved.
- Next scheduled revision download:
- [still to be deciphered.]

I hope I get a better appendix in the next download.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

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--=====================_985975453==.ALT
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Hi Jones,

I'm sure you have seen the writups:
><http://blake.montclair.edu/~kowalskil/cf/226yang.html>http://blake.montclair.edu/~kowalskil/cf/226yang.html
>http://blake.montclair.edu/~kowalskil/cf/216koldamasov.html

Yeah, I know all about Ludwik's blogs and also where he got his information 
from and where he is speculating and where he is inaccurate. A lot of stuff 
he's got is helpful and accurate, but not all of it. Ludwik is a friend of 
mine, but not a business associate -- so I'm not collaborating with him, 
nor interfering with what he is doing.


>A relevant question: is there any indication that the reaction slows or 
>ceases after a certain time frame - unless new liquid (oil or heavy water) 
>is replaces the "spent" liquid ?

The cells I saw running experienced cracking in the vicinity of the 
reaction which developed after about 15 minutes to a point at which the 
operators felt it was unsafe to continue running a 1000psi system with 
bystanders within several feet of the system. So they took the system down 
intentionally and changed out cells.

But your question pertains more directly to the consumption of mass in 
exchange for energy. This is, indeed, a question which I asked the techs 
when I was there.

 From my observation and their response, the answer is no. I think if you 
do the math, and calc out e=mc^2, and calc the volume in the system, (which 
unfortunately I don't have data on -- yet) I think you'll find that it 
would take a long, long time for the fuel to be consumed. That's the gist 
of what was explained to me. I've received conflicting reports on the 
energy production levels so I'm not going to quote or speculate until I 
have clearer data.


s 
--=====================_985975453==.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
<body>
Hi Jones,<br><br>
<font face="arial" size=2>I'm sure you have seen the writups:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">
<a href="http://blake.montclair.edu/~kowalskil/cf/226yang.html">
http://blake.montclair.edu/~kowalskil/cf/226yang.html</a><br>
<a href="http://blake.montclair.edu/~kowalskil/cf/216koldamasov.html%A0" eudora="autourl">
http://blake.montclair.edu/~kowalskil/cf/216koldamasov.html</a></font>
<a href="http://blake.montclair.edu/~kowalskil/cf/216koldamasov.html%A0" eudora="autourl">
 </a><font face="arial" size=2></font></blockquote><br>
Yeah, I know all about Ludwik's blogs and also where he got his
information from and where he is speculating and where he is inaccurate.
A lot of stuff he's got is helpful and accurate, but not all of it.
Ludwik is a friend of mine, but not a business associate -- so I'm not
collaborating with him, nor interfering with what he is doing.<br><br>
<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite=""><font face="arial" size=2>A
relevant question: is there any indication that the reaction slows or
ceases after a certain time frame - unless new liquid (oil or heavy
water) is replaces the &quot;spent&quot; liquid
?</font></blockquote><br>
The cells I saw running experienced cracking in the vicinity of the
reaction which developed after about 15 minutes to a point at which the
operators felt it was unsafe to continue running a 1000psi system with
bystanders within several feet of the system. So they took the system
down intentionally and changed out cells.<br><br>
But your question pertains more directly to the consumption of mass in
exchange for energy. This is, indeed, a question which I asked the techs
when I was there.<br><br>
 From my observation and their response, the answer is no. I think if you
do the math, and calc out e=mc^2, and calc the volume in the system,
(which unfortunately I don't have data on -- yet) I think you'll find
that it would take a long, long time for the fuel to be consumed. That's
the gist of what was explained to me. I've received conflicting reports
on the energy production levels so I'm not going to quote or speculate
until I have clearer data.<br><br>
<br>
s</body>
</html>

--=====================_985975453==.ALT--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec  5 12:36:09 2005
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Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 12:34:51 -0800 (PST)
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Hydraulic-Electrostatic Cold Fusion Online
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Steve,

> But your question pertains more directly to the
consumption of mass in exchange for energy...it would
take a long, long time for the fuel to be consumed. 

Not exactly what I was refering to, but close. The
"devil is in the details" as they say ....

Specifically what I am suggesting is that in any
population of hydrogen there could concievably exist a
small (PPM or less) previously undetected population
of metastable isomers (a much smaller ratio that the
deuterium content of sea water, for instance.)

Even in CF, this possibility has never been ruled out,
in either experiment or in QM theory that a population
of metastable isomers does not exist and is
responsible for the excess energy. These might or
might not be the same as "natural" (i.e.
solar-derived) hydrinos. The excess energy might come
from either  a higher cross-section for fusion, or a
direct release of low energy x-rays or EUV.

Jones


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec  5 12:39:18 2005
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Subject: Re: Vortex motion
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Hi Harry,
Look at some of the graphics in the link below for vortex pflow in rivers 
and streams. Click on the picture and it will take you to the individual 
sites with explanation. While this link has some interesting views, it also 
, unfortunately, has an abundance of political and philisopical views that 
detract from the essence of the message.
Richard



http://www.vortexpluswater.com/vortex_basics.htm

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Harry Veeder" <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2005 11:09 PM
Subject: Vortex motion


> For those people who observe vortices, I am curious about how vortices
> travel in flowing water.
>
> If a vortex is created in a stream of water which is flowing with uniform
> velocity, will the centre of the vortex move in the same direction as the
> stream
> or will the centre veer right or left depending on its rotation?
>
> Harry
>
> 


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I can answer this on V:

>My question is, did you get a chance to see the energy balance?
>E.g. how much energy was input by the high pressure pump, how much
>by the spark, how much did they get out?


I would have to say that the comments made to me regarding energy balance 
are, as yet, undocumented, and without confidence. The best thing I've got 
is verbally each and independently from McKubre, Hagelstein and Fleischmann 
that there seems to be a very clear and certain excess heat effect.  So, 
moving on to a quantitative analysis of the Px is next. However, IMO, even 
a minor Px is significant considering the fact that this appears to be 100% 
repeatable and controllable.

My goal is to bring an independent engineer to one of the labs in Canada to 
perform an audit and get the data we all seek.

s

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec  5 13:39:49 2005
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
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Subject: Re: Hydraulic-Electrostatic Cold Fusion Online
Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 08:38:46 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Steven Krivit's message of Mon, 05 Dec 2005 10:53:50
-0800:
Hi Steven,
[snip]
>Hi Jones,
>
>I'm sure you have seen the writups:
>><http://blake.montclair.edu/~kowalskil/cf/226yang.html>http://blake.montclair.edu/~kowalskil/cf/226yang.html
>>http://blake.montclair.edu/~kowalskil/cf/216koldamasov.html
>
>Yeah, I know all about Ludwik's blogs and also where he got his information 
>from and where he is speculating and where he is inaccurate. A lot of stuff 
>he's got is helpful and accurate, but not all of it. Ludwik is a friend of 
>mine, but not a business associate -- so I'm not collaborating with him, 
>nor interfering with what he is doing.
[snip]
Based on the description of the operation of the device, I would
say that the combination of high voltage electrical discharge and
high temps induced by cavitation are ideal for the creation of O++
ions which would function as Mills catalysts.
A net thermal gain of about a factor of 20 doesn't seem at all
unreasonable to me. After conversion of this to electric power, a
remaining gain of about a factor of 6 also seems about right (30%
conversion efficiency). Note also that both energetic particles
and UV released through hydrino production will result in some
radiolytic production of hydrogen, which also seems to correlate
with the description of the functioning of the device.
Perhaps needless to say, some of the D may also eventually fuse,
when the hydrinos get small enough, though that may take a while.

This method may be superior to those employed by Mills due to the
plasma being contained by a liquid at close quarters. This could
prevent dispersion of hydrinos ensuring rapid recycling and
hastening shrinkage.

I should also add that rapid destruction of the orifice due to
cavitation is also not surprising, and this may be the primary
problem holding up development. In their shoes, I would try using
vanadium oxide as a stop gap measure, though long term I think
they will need to find some form of self healing arrangement.
(Mercury vortex?).

In short, if hydrinos exist, then this may be one of the best
devices to date that makes use of them.
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec  5 13:44:04 2005
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Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 16:42:33 -0500
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: OFF TOPIC Pascal's false argument
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Wesley Bruce wrote:

>In other words
>
>    * If I believe in God and I am right what do I gain? All the
>      pleasures of eternity.
>
>    * If I am wrong what do I loose? A few passing pleasures and then
>      oblivion.
>
>    *  If I disbelieve in God and there is life after death and some
>      judgement.

Pascal's argument is based on the notion that belief is voluntary; 
i.e., we can choose what we believe, and what we do not believe. This is false.

To take a dramatic example, consider a person in her 40s who is dying 
of an incurable disease. She may want to believe she will survive by 
some miracle, but if she is educated and understands disease and 
probability, she will believe with as much certainty as a person can 
muster that she is doomed. No amount of wishful thinking or desire on 
her part will affect this belief, or impair her judgement. I have 
seen many people in this situation, both theists and atheists, 
including a friend who died last month. They can no more choose to 
believe one way or the other than I can choose to believe that 2 + 2 
= 5. (In some cases the disease, drugs or extreme fear will impair 
the patient's judgement, but I have never seen this happen.)

Not only is Pascal's argument false, it is contrary to everyday 
experience, since we all know that we cannot make ourselves think 
that 2 + 2 = 5, or night is day, or up is down. In my opinion this 
argument is also preposterous and cruel, since it tries to impose a 
"guilt trip" on people who cannot bring themselves to believe in fairy tales.

- Jed


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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Did US Oil Really Peak?
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hohlrauml6d netscape.net wrote:

>Did oil production really peak in 1971.  This article and referenced 
>book questions the idea.
>
>http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=47618

I believe this article misses the point. Oil extraction technology 
has improved continuously since 1850, and Hubbard's projection 
assumes that it will continue to improve at about the same rate it 
has all along. Half of the oil discovered since 1850 is still in the 
ground. There is essentially no more oil left to be discovered. (No 
major oil fields, but of course there are hundreds of minor ones.) 
That is why we are now at the peak of Hubbard's curve: there is now 
as much oil left to extract as we have already previously extracted.

If our extraction technology fails to improve, we will have to leave 
nearly all the remaining oil in the ground, and supplies will drop 
off precipitously, much faster than they ramped up. That is unlikely.

The limiting factor to extraction is not the technology per se. Not 
exactly. Given enough money and energy, we could already extract 99% 
of the oil from any given area. The problem is that toward the end of 
this process it would take 10 or 20 barrels of oil to extract each 
remaining barrel, so there would be no point. In the early 20th 
century, the energy from 1 barrel of oil sufficed to extract and 
refine about 100 additional barrels. Today it takes about 1 barrel to 
extract 5, and soon it will take 1 to extract 3. At that point it 
will probably be cheaper to synthesize oil from solar, wind or nuclear power.

- Jed


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If the references provided by Mr. Beene relate to what you are terming 
hydraulic-electrostatic cold fusion, it is anything but cold.  It 
sounds much more like Tessian's plans for bubble fusion which is likely 
unrelated to the Fleischmann/Pons effect.  I have often wondered if 
Griggs cavitating heater would have benefited from inclusion of heavy 
water.

Knuke's cavitator certainly liked having a few extra neutrons around!  
<g>


-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Krivit

I would have to say that the comments made to me regarding energy 
balance are, as yet, undocumented, and without confidence. The best 
thing I've got is verbally each and independently from McKubre, 
Hagelstein and Fleischmann that there seems to be a very clear and 
certain excess heat effect. So, moving on to a quantitative analysis of 
the Px is next. However, IMO, even a minor Px is significant 
considering the fact that this appears to be 100% repeatable and 
controllable. 
 
My goal is to bring an independent engineer to one of the labs in 
Canada to perform an audit and get the data we all seek. 
 
s 
 


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hohlrauml6d netscape.net wrote:

>He lost his job in the patent office because he was open-minded 
>enough to attend a free-energy conference.  Now he is vindicated and 
>the defenders of the faith, Peter and Bob are chastized:
>
>http://users.erols.com/iri/ValonePatentOfficeDecision.htm

This is a fascinating document. The writing style is less formal than 
I supposed it would be. It is almost breezy in places. The author 
seems to reached a reasonable, fair, and thoughtful decision 
regarding Tom Valone. It is remarkable that he managed to do this, 
because his statements about cold fusion are ludicrous. He knows 
nothing about the subject and apparently it never crossed his mind to 
look it up on Google. Fortunately, the truth or falsity of cold 
fusion claims have nothing to do with Valone's case.

I agree with the arbitrator, that Valone was somewhat at fault and he 
did misrepresent the Department of Commerce's role in the meeting. 
The arbitrator reduced his sentence to a 30 day suspension, which I 
think Valone deserved.

- Jed


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hohlrauml6d netscape.net wrote:

>If the references provided by Mr. Beene relate to what you are 
>terming hydraulic-electrostatic cold fusion, it is anything but 
>cold.  It sounds much more like Tessian's plans for bubble fusion 
>which is likely unrelated to the Fleischmann/Pons effect.




>I have often wondered if Griggs cavitating heater would have 
>benefited from inclusion of heavy water.

Many people have wondered about that.

Gene Mallove once dumped some heavy water into the Griggs gadget 
tank. The amount was very small compared to the total amount of water 
in the tank, but it was enough to increase the concentration of heavy 
water hundreds of times compared to ordinary water. It had no 
measurable effect.

By the way, Hydro Dynamics has improved their web site and they now 
have lots of good pictures and better proof that the device is 
producing massive cavitation effects, including a video. See:

http://www.hydrodynamics.com/product_pics.htm

http://www.hydrodynamics.com/videos/video01.wmv

- Jed


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Dec. 05, 2005

Vortex,

So with ICCF-12  now history, when and where is ICCF-13 to be held?

-ak-
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<DIV><BR>Dec. 05, 2005</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Vortex,</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>So with ICCF-12&nbsp; now history, when and where is ICCF-13 to be held?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>-ak-</DIV></BODY></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec  5 15:55:59 2005
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Subject: Re: Hydraulic-Electrostatic Cold Fusion Online
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The second reference states:

"The working fluid is fed by a gear pump under the pressure of 5 to 7 
MPa; the channel is 25-30 cm long, and the orifice diameter is 1-2 mm. 
By changing the electric motor rotation rate, we change the frequency 
of flow pulsation's and reach the resonance frequency of the orifice, 
which causes intensive cavitation."

7 MPa is a little over 1000 lbs/in^2 . . . but I do not understand the 
pulsing.  Is the pulsing reciprocating or linear?  I would think 
reciprocating pulsing would enhance the process if cavitation is 
involved.


-----Original Message-----
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Sent: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 07:50:17 -0800
Subject: Re: Hydraulic-Electrostatic Cold Fusion Online

Steve,
 
I'm sure you have seen the writups:
http://blake.montclair.edu/~kowalskil/cf/226yang.html
http://blake.montclair.edu/~kowalskil/cf/216koldamasov.html
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Subject: Re: Response to some questions
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Hello Mr. Anon,

Please have a look/listen to what I write/say in my presentation/video 
about hot vs cold and tell me your thoughts.

Steve


At 02:05 PM 12/5/2005, you wrote:
>If the references provided by Mr. Beene relate to what you are terming 
>hydraulic-electrostatic cold fusion, it is anything but cold.  It sounds 
>much more like Tessian's plans for bubble fusion which is likely unrelated 
>to the Fleischmann/Pons effect.  I have often wondered if Griggs 
>cavitating heater would have benefited from inclusion of heavy water.

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Subject: Re: Response to some questions
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Hi Anon,
One of the hopes of reporting new energy technology is to stimulate ideas 
and information transfer. It would be of great service if you would build a 
Griggs type cavitation device and test it using heavy water. The question 
would then be answered by the one that poses it with the added benefit we 
would all learn something.

Richard

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steven Krivit" <steven newenergytimes.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 6:44 PM
Subject: Re: Response to some questions


> Hello Mr. Anon,
>
> Please have a look/listen to what I write/say in my presentation/video 
> about hot vs cold and tell me your thoughts.
>
> Steve
>
>
> At 02:05 PM 12/5/2005, you wrote:
>>If the references provided by Mr. Beene relate to what you are terming 
>>hydraulic-electrostatic cold fusion, it is anything but cold.  It sounds 
>>much more like Tessian's plans for bubble fusion which is likely unrelated 
>>to the Fleischmann/Pons effect.  I have often wondered if Griggs 
>>cavitating heater would have benefited from inclusion of heavy water.
> 


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec  5 17:48:53 2005
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Thanks, but program doesn't seem to work for me.
Harry

William Beaty wrote:


> 
> Play with these java simulations if you want to visualize the separatrix
> which surrounds a ring vortex (well, in 2D it would be a vortex-pair
> subjected to wind)
> 
> http://www.aoe.vt.edu/~devenpor/aoe5104/ifm/ifmex.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec  5 17:53:22 2005
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Attitude, mon ami.

I will no longer trouble you.

-----Original Message-----
From: Steven Krivit 


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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec  5 17:58:56 2005
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Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 17:58:17 -0800 (PST)
From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
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Subject: Re: Valone Arbitration Ruling
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On Thu, 1 Dec 2005 hohlrauml6d netscape.net wrote:

> He lost his job in the patent office because he was open-minded enough
> to attend a free-energy conference.

Wrong.  Do you know Tom Valone?  He *organized* a FE conference, then was
attacked by pseudoskeptics behind the scenes.

PS

Detailing the difference between proper skeptics and pseudoskeptics:

 Pseudoskeptics habitually attempt to silence their opponents.  Scientists
 (i.e. skeptics) never try to block this information flow because they
 honestly want to know whether their opponents are wrong or right, and
 they're aware that the "solid facts" of science can change as new
 evidence is uncovered, and, because they pursue knowledge, they must
 fight to let opponents present the clearest and strongest case
 possible.


Also, here's a little weapon in the war with Skeptic organizations:

  There's really no such thing as a "skeptic."  Proper skeptics use
  scientific skepticism as well as many other elements of science
  practice.  So in other words, you're either a scientist or your not, and
  "skeptic" is a distracting term which only serves to confuse.  (By
  "scientist" I mean that your behavior is that of a scientist; not that
  you perform actual research.)  So, if a person claims to be a "Skeptic,"
  yet their behavior reeks with dishonesty, and contains features of
  group-hatred, and includes all sorts of rhetorical tactics and
  emotionally manipulative language...  then that person is no Skeptic,
  because that person is no Scientist.




(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb at amasci com                         http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair
Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci

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Ackshully, I do.

He tried to use a USPTO venue for his purposes.

I think he was vindicated and treated fairly.

Something is afoot, IMO.

Something . . . wonderful.

ANON


-----Original Message-----
From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Sent: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 17:58:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Valone Arbitration Ruling

On Thu, 1 Dec 2005 hohlrauml6d netscape.net wrote:

> He lost his job in the patent office because he was open-minded enough
> to attend a free-energy conference.

Wrong.  Do you know Tom Valone?  He *organized* a FE conference, then 
was
attacked by pseudoskeptics behind the scenes.
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Hi Anon,
No at all, Vorts are by nature , looking for trouble.. err, make that,,,, 
answers that may trouble.. or ,, may provoke troubling doubts.. or.. may 
trouble provokitoors.. or may provoke thought and discovery.. ah! the 
quest., the quest..
 Imagine the posts regarding UFO's and alien invasions mentioned recently..
What if the aliens are all FEMALE just searching for a male ??? hehe.. they 
came, they looked, they saw men 40-80 lbs overweight and decided they 
weren't up to it..errr.. poor choice of words.. but the threat of invasion 
and conquest may have been averted.. not by NASA and our military.. but by 
the big Mac.
Richard
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <hohlrauml6d netscape.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 7:52 PM
Subject: Re: Response to some questions


> Attitude, mon ami.
>
> I will no longer trouble you.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steven Krivit
>
>
> ___________________________________________________
> Try the New Netscape Mail Today!
> Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List
> http://mail.netscape.com
>
>
> 


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Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 22:29:37 -0500
From: Harry Veeder <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: Scientists in a spin over curling clues
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ThomasClark123 aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 11/22/2005 6:43:32 PM Eastern Standard Time,
eo200 freenet.carleton.ca writes:
> The problem is why curling stones, which rotate clockwise, curl to
> the right, unlike other objects, such as a glass spinning on a
> table, which veer in the opposite direction.
Thanks for the post.

P.M.S. Blackett's law conneting the magnetic field of a body with its spin
P=3DBG^1/2/2c * U where P is the magnetic field strength, B a new constant
with magnitude near to unity for the unites chosen, G the universal
gravitation constant, c the speed of light, and U the angular momentum may
help us find a connection between right and left curls, gravity and rotatin=
g
spinning matter.

If we assume that the spiraling curling force in every atom may be
associated with the gravity force, then if we were to counter the spiraling
force in every atom by either using a counter spiraling force such as a
counter spiraling sphere or gyroscopic force around the atom or a
collections of atoms in a body or ship, then we may be able to counter
gravity.  Since many objects may have a spiraling force that goes in both
left and right spiraling directions we may need a counter spiraling force
that goes counter right and counter left as in a double left and right
spiraling spheres or gyroscopes as used in the Nazi Bell antigravity device=
.
We may also develope tinny left and right handed antennas placed in nanomad=
e
materials which capture the spiraling forces and creates and antispiraling
force, to make materials that may jam out some of the gravity forces perhap=
s
up to 80 percent.=20


Personally, I think the phenomena of curling is inconsistent with some
aspect
of Newton mechanics.
Anyway, any explanation of curling will have to be consistent with the
following observations.

Harry

-----------------

Curling rock dynamics: Towards a realistic model
by Mark Denny=20

No subscription required to download this paper from the
Canadian Journal of Physics web site:
http://pubs.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/cgi-bin/rp/rp2_vols_e?cjp

see issue Sept. 2002

Other papers on curling can be found here as well.

<begin quote>:

Observed characteristics of curling rock trajectories, familiar to any
experienced curler, are listed below.

1. For a counterclockwise angular velocity (as seen from above) the rock
develops a component of linear velocity to the left.

2. For a clockwise angular velocity it moves to the right; for no angular
velocity the rock does not deviate from its initial direction.

3. For conventional angular velocities, the trajectories are insensitive to
initial angular speed.

4. Rotational and translational motion stop at about the same time.

5. The normalized angular speed (i.e., angular speed divided by its initial
value) slows down less rapidly than does normalized linear speed, except at
the end of the trajectory.

Here =B3conventional angular velocities=B9 are those normally imparted during a
game of curling, and are such that the rock undergoes 1=AD4 full rotations
before coming to a halt. These facts have long been known in the world of
curling. Observations 1 to 3 were first introduced to physicists 20 years
ago [1]. Observation 3 has recently been confirmed experimentally by Penner
[7]. That curl distance is insensitive to initial angular speed is a
well-known fact amongst experienced curlers. We can infer observation 3 by
noting the manner in which curlers specify to each other how a shot should
be played. A curler at one end of the ice is asked to play a shot by his
skip at the other end of the ice, in the house (the target area). The skip
indicates the initial direction of the shot, usually by placing his brush,
vertically, so as to give the curler a line to aim at. He also indicates th=
e
weight to be applied (i.e., the initial speed): he asks for draw weight for
a shot to finish in the house, and may specify further whether he wants the
rock in the front or back of the house. He also indicates which handle
(direction of rotation: clockwise or counterclockwise) he wants the curler
to apply. Thus, in physics terms, the skip specifies both magnitude and
direction of initial rock linear velocity, but only specifies direction of
initial angular velocity: he does not specify initial angular speed. This
indicates that, over the range of angular speeds imparted during a game, th=
e
curl distance is insensitive to this variable.

<end quote> 

--Boundary_(ID_IIpWJ/84IDk7bK1vDxKZ+A)
Content-type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Re: Scientists in a spin over curling clues</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<BR>
<BR>
ThomasClark123 aol.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE>In a message dated 11/22/2005 6:43:32 PM Eastern Standard Time,=
 eo200 freenet.carleton.ca writes:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; The problem is why curling stones, whic=
h rotate clockwise, curl to <BR>
&gt; the right, unlike other objects, such as a glass spinning on a <BR>
&gt; table, which veer in the opposite direction. <BR>
</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>Thanks for the post. &nbsp;<BR>
 <BR>
P.M.S. Blackett's law conneting the magnetic field of a body with its spin =
P=3DBG^1/2/2c * U where P is the magnetic field strength, B a new constant wit=
h magnitude near to unity for the unites chosen, G the universal gravitation=
 constant, c the speed of light, and U the angular momentum may help us find=
 a connection between right and left curls, gravity and rotating spinning ma=
tter.<BR>
 <BR>
If we assume that the spiraling curling force in every atom may be associat=
ed with the gravity force, then if we were to counter the spiraling force in=
 every atom by either using a counter spiraling force such as a counter spir=
aling sphere or gyroscopic force around the atom or a collections of atoms i=
n a body or ship, then we may be able to counter gravity. &nbsp;Since many o=
bjects may have a spiraling force that goes in both left and right spiraling=
 directions we may need a counter spiraling force that goes counter right an=
d counter left as in a double left and right spiraling spheres or gyroscopes=
 as used in the Nazi Bell antigravity device. &nbsp;We may also develope tin=
ny left and right handed antennas placed in nanomade materials which capture=
 the spiraling forces and creates and antispiraling force, to make materials=
 that may jam out some of the gravity forces perhaps up to 80 percent. <BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<TT>Personally, I think the phenomena of curling is inconsistent with some =
aspect<BR>
of Newton mechanics.<BR>
Anyway, any explanation of curling will have to be consistent with the <BR>
following observations.<BR>
<BR>
Harry<BR>
<BR>
-----------------<BR>
<BR>
<FONT SIZE=3D"5">Curling rock dynamics: Towards a realistic model<BR>
by Mark Denny <BR>
</FONT><BR>
No subscription required to download this paper from the <BR>
Canadian Journal of Physics web site:<BR>
http://pubs.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/cgi-bin/rp/rp2_vols_e?cjp<BR>
<BR>
see issue Sept. 2002<BR>
<BR>
Other papers on curling can be found here as well.<BR>
<BR>
&lt;begin quote&gt;:<BR>
<BR>
Observed characteristics of curling rock trajectories, familiar to any <BR>
experienced curler, are listed below.<BR>
<BR>
1. For a counterclockwise angular velocity (as seen from above) the rock <B=
R>
develops a component of linear velocity to the left.<BR>
<BR>
2. For a clockwise angular velocity it moves to the right; for no angular <=
BR>
velocity the rock does not deviate from its initial direction.<BR>
<BR>
3. For conventional angular velocities, the trajectories are insensitive to=
 <BR>
initial angular speed.<BR>
<BR>
4. Rotational and translational motion stop at about the same time.<BR>
<BR>
5. The normalized angular speed (i.e., angular speed divided by its initial=
 <BR>
value) slows down less rapidly than does normalized linear speed, except at=
 <BR>
the end of the trajectory.<BR>
<BR>
Here =B3conventional angular velocities=B9 are those normally imparted during a=
 <BR>
game of curling, and are such that the rock undergoes 1=AD4 full rotations <B=
R>
before coming to a halt. These facts have long been known in the world of <=
BR>
curling. Observations 1 to 3 were first introduced to physicists 20 years <=
BR>
ago [1]. Observation 3 has recently been confirmed experimentally by Penner=
 <BR>
[7]. That curl distance is insensitive to initial angular speed is a <BR>
well-known fact amongst experienced curlers. We can infer observation 3 by =
<BR>
noting the manner in which curlers specify to each other how a shot should =
<BR>
be played. A curler at one end of the ice is asked to play a shot by his <B=
R>
skip at the other end of the ice, in the house (the target area). The skip =
<BR>
indicates the initial direction of the shot, usually by placing his brush, =
<BR>
vertically, so as to give the curler a line to aim at. He also indicates th=
e <BR>
weight to be applied (i.e., the initial speed): he asks for draw weight for=
 <BR>
a shot to finish in the house, and may specify further whether he wants the=
 <BR>
rock in the front or back of the house. He also indicates which handle <BR>
(direction of rotation: clockwise or counterclockwise) he wants the curler =
<BR>
to apply. Thus, in physics terms, the skip specifies both magnitude and <BR=
>
direction of initial rock linear velocity, but only specifies direction of =
<BR>
initial angular velocity: he does not specify initial angular speed. This <=
BR>
indicates that, over the range of angular speeds imparted during a game, th=
e <BR>
curl distance is insensitive to this variable.<BR>
<BR>
&lt;end quote&gt;</TT>
</BODY>
</HTML>


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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec  5 20:13:55 2005
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Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 03:52:49 +0000
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At 09:09 pm 05/12/2005 -0500, you wrote:

>Something is afoot, IMO.
>
>Something . . . wonderful.
>


What?

Don't be a tease.  8-)
Do tell us.

I'm all ears.

Frank Grimer

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Cher Anon,

N'est pas l'attitude.

Your question is an important one, but I just did not wish to repeat what I 
have already gone to great lengths to present and publish. My reference is 
here:

Slide 16
Why Is This Cold Fusion?
- Apparent nuclear energy from hydrogen at low temperatures
- Apparent branching ratio favoring helium and not neutrons or gamma.


SVP, I want to hear your thoughts. I do not know everything. I just listen 
to other wise people and learn from them.

Steve

--=====================_1026743468==.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
<body>
Cher Anon,<br><br>
N'est pas l'attitude.&nbsp; <br><br>
Your question is an important one, but I just did not wish to repeat what
I have already gone to great lengths to present and publish. My reference
is here:<br><br>
<i>Slide 16<br>
</i><b>Why Is This Cold Fusion?<br>
</b>- Apparent nuclear energy from hydrogen at low temperatures<br>
- Apparent branching ratio favoring helium and not neutrons or
gamma.<br><br>
<br>
SVP, I want to hear your thoughts. I do not know everything. I just
listen to other wise people and learn from them.<br><br>
Steve<br>
</body>
</html>

--=====================_1026743468==.ALT--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec  5 22:24:57 2005
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Speaking about NASA....

Look at this little gem that surfaced last week at ICCF12

http://www.lenr-canr.org//acrobat/FralickGCresultsofa.pdf

But hey, no neutrons. Guess the experiment was "negative!"



Steven B. Krivit
Editor, New Energy Times
Executive Director, New Energy Institute Inc.

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  This message is in MIME format.  The first part should be readable text,
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On Mon, 5 Dec 2005, Harry Veeder wrote:

> Thanks, but program doesn't seem to work for me.

Did you get the applet window that's shown in the instructions?  If not,
then your browser's Java plugin is set up wrong, or is missing.

  Instructions
  http://www.aoe.vt.edu/~devenpor/aoe5104/ifm/ifminfo.html

Attached is a GIF I just grabbed of a vortex pair simulation.  I put a
-1.0 vortex above a +1.0 vortex, set the free stream (wind) to +0.1, then
drew a bunch of streamlines.



> > Play with these java simulations if you want to visualize the
> > separatrix which surrounds a ring vortex (well, in 2D it would be a
> > vortex-pair subjected to wind)
> >
> > http://www.aoe.vt.edu/~devenpor/aoe5104/ifm/ifmex.html
>

(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb at amasci com                         http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair
Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci
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From: "Nick Palmer" <nickp wynterwood.co.uk>
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Subject: Re: NASA confirms FP 
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One would have thought that true scientists would have gone on to test for 
the products of the aneutronic deuterium -> Tritium+ Hydrogen reaction! 


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RC Macaulay wrote:

> Hi Anon,
> No at all, Vorts are by nature , looking for trouble.. err, make 
> that,,,, answers that may trouble.. or ,, may provoke troubling 
> doubts.. or.. may trouble provokitoors.. or may provoke thought and 
> discovery.. ah! the quest., the quest..
> Imagine the posts regarding UFO's and alien invasions mentioned 
> recently..
> What if the aliens are all FEMALE just searching for a male ??? hehe.. 
> they came, they looked, they saw men 40-80 lbs overweight and decided 
> they weren't up to it..errr.. poor choice of words.. but the threat of 
> invasion and conquest may have been averted.. not by NASA and our 
> military.. but by the big Mac.
> Richard
> ----- Original Message ----- From: <hohlrauml6d netscape.net>
> To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 7:52 PM
> Subject: Re: Response to some questions
>
>
>> Attitude, mon ami.
>>
>> I will no longer trouble you.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Steven Krivit
>>
>>
>> ___________________________________________________
>> Try the New Netscape Mail Today!
>> Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List
>> http://mail.netscape.com
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Just think of us as two parts energy myth busters [as per the TV show], 
one part enwergy quiz master, one part new energy coordination,  with a 
side order of energy jokes.
I still haven't figgured out whats OT on Vort yet. But its fun.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  6 06:01:45 2005
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Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Pascal's false argument
References: <BFB357BE.FEFD%eo200 ncf.ca> <438E887F.9070708@iinet.net.au> <7.0.0.16.2.20051205161740.03abdf00@mindspring.com>
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Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Wesley Bruce wrote:
>
>> In other words
>>
>> * If I believe in God and I am right what do I gain? All the
>> pleasures of eternity.
>>
>> * If I am wrong what do I loose? A few passing pleasures and then
>> oblivion.
>>
>> * If I disbelieve in God and there is life after death and some
>> judgement.
>
>
> Pascal's argument is based on the notion that belief is voluntary; 
> i.e., we can choose what we believe, and what we do not believe. This 
> is false.
>
> To take a dramatic example, consider a person in her 40s who is dying 
> of an incurable disease. She may want to believe she will survive by 
> some miracle, but if she is educated and understands disease and 
> probability, she will believe with as much certainty as a person can 
> muster that she is doomed. No amount of wishful thinking or desire on 
> her part will affect this belief, or impair her judgement. I have seen 
> many people in this situation, both theists and atheists, including a 
> friend who died last month. They can no more choose to believe one way 
> or the other than I can choose to believe that 2 + 2 = 5. (In some 
> cases the disease, drugs or extreme fear will impair the patient's 
> judgement, but I have never seen this happen.)
>
> Not only is Pascal's argument false, it is contrary to everyday 
> experience, since we all know that we cannot make ourselves think that 
> 2 + 2 = 5, or night is day, or up is down. In my opinion this argument 
> is also preposterous and cruel, since it tries to impose a "guilt 
> trip" on people who cannot bring themselves to believe in fairy tales.
>
> - Jed
>
>
You have a good point but I suspect your immune to the guilt trip bit. 
You don’t strike me as the type and I don't see you doing anything wrong 
anyway. Your argument assumes an absolute truth but not my absolute 
truth. I have seen people cured of the incurable. It may be random 
chance or an act of God but either way faith is involved. One has faith 
in probability and naturalism the other has faith in God thanks to 
experience and witnessed events.
We have lived in an age where Atheism used guns to attempt to enforce 
its will. Christians like me don't mind the harmless atheists. It's the 
ones that try to out law belief or kill it by force or guile that are 
the big problem.
2 + 2 does not equal 5 but 2 +3 does. If you only see the 2's where I 
see a 3 then we have a minor problem.
As for fairy tales; is the big bang any more or less of a tale that any 
of its alternatives? Starting assumptions are the difference between a 
good theory and a bad one. Starting assumptions often go unstated or 
even unknown, sub-conscious, to the user.
Our fusion opponents assume that all nuclear reactions should have the 
same branching ratio. It is an assumption they don't question. Its is to 
them as real as your dieing friends beliefs in the incurability of the 
disease. But in their case that belief, while strongly held by many, 
does not change the truth of cold fusion one bit. Absolute truth must be 
the bigger of the two tales.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  6 08:00:38 2005
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From: "Jones Beene" <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Subject: Re: NASA confirms FP 
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Nick Palmer writes

> One would have thought that true scientists would have gone on 
> to test for the products of the aneutronic deuterium -> Tritium+ 
> Hydrogen reaction!


Especially in light of the discovery earlier that year (1989) by 
Bockris of tritium in CF... which was alluded to in a recent post 
about the neglected importance of tritium and the possible 
political overtones of cheap tritium.

IOW, Bockris had already discovered tritium from the D+D reaction, 
and all they needed to do here - since they *found excess heat* - 
was to look for tritium. As mentioned, the type of detector they 
were using would not detect tritium. Yet they failed to do what 
any undergrad would have known immediately to do. Bizarre.

The answer, of course, to this conundrum and many similar, 
arguably relates to politics - even in the relative calm of the 
USA before 9/11.

[side note] Is everything before 9/11 "prehistory" or 
"pre-hysteria" ?

Jones


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  6 08:40:35 2005
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To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Pascal's false argument
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I forgot to mention that Pascal's argument is also a logical fallacy: 
appeal to the consequences of a belief. This was defined thousands of 
years before Pascal was born. All in all it was a sloppy analysis, 
and Pascal -- who was a sharp thinker -- should have been ashamed of himself.

I wish that people would learn basic logic in grade school. They 
should be drilled on a dozen or so common logical fallacies that have 
been known for thousands of years. The subject is no harder than 
addition and subtraction, and armed with this knowledge you can avoid 
innumerable stupid errors. The world would be a better place for it. 
A lot of political rhetoric, for example, boils down to one fallacy 
or another. You can take a refresher course here: 
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/

Wesley Bruce wrote:

>I have seen people cured of the incurable.

This assertion makes no sense. If they were cured it was not 
incurable, q.e.d. I think you mean that you have seen people cured 
when the odds were against them. No doubt this is true, but it proves 
nothing about faith because most people who are seriously ill and who 
pray die anyway, and some atheists survive. Causality has long been 
searched for but never found. Even the so-called placebo affect has 
now been shown to be pure moonshine. Regarding the applicablity of 
this to science, I suggest you read Francis Bacon, who wrote in 
"Novum Organum" (1620):


"The human understanding, when any preposition has been once laid 
down, (either from general admission and belief, or from the pleasure 
it affords,) forces every thing else to add fresh support and 
confirmation; and although more cogent and abundant instances may 
exist to the contrary, yet either does not observe or despises them, 
or gets rid of and rejects them by some distinction, with violent and 
injurious prejudice, rather than sacrifice the authority of its first 
conclusions. It was well answered by him [Diagoras] who was shown in 
a temple the votive tablets suspended by such as had escaped the 
peril of shipwreck, and was pressed as to whether he would then 
recognise the power of the gods, by an inquiry; "But where are the 
portraits of those who have perished in spite of their vows?" All 
superstition is much the same, whether it be that of astrology, 
dreams, omens, retributive judgment, or the like; in all of which the 
deluded believers observe events which are fulfilled, but neglect and 
pass over their failure, though it be much more common. But this evil 
insinuates itself still more craftily in philosophy and the sciences; 
in which a settled maxim vitiates and governs every other 
circumstance, though the latter be much more worthy of confidence. 
Besides, even in the absence of that eagerness and want of thought, 
(which we have mentioned,) it is the peculiar and perpetual error of 
the human understanding to be more moved and excited by affirmatives 
than by negatives, whereas it ought duly and regularly to be 
impartial; nay, in establishing any true axiom, the negative instance 
is the most powerful."


- Jed


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Subject: Re: NASA confirms FP 
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Hi Jones,
As often as I have wondered about the same , at the end of the day I can 
only assume the parties simply do not know how to run a business. Too caught 
up in the dream of splendor they fail to cross "tee's" and dot " I's". 
Surely they know it takes as much effort to reach the next rung of the 
ladder as it did the last.
My experience with the "inventor mentality" has been so negative that I no 
longer buy the thing in the box. I don't want to know whats in the box. I 
want to see it in commercial application.
Richard
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jones Beene" <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 9:58 AM
Subject: Re: NASA confirms FP


> Nick Palmer writes
>
>> One would have thought that true scientists would have gone on to test 
>> for the products of the aneutronic deuterium -> Tritium+ Hydrogen 
>> reaction!
>
>
> Especially in light of the discovery earlier that year (1989) by Bockris 
> of tritium in CF... which was alluded to in a recent post about the 
> neglected importance of tritium and the possible political overtones of 
> cheap tritium.
>
> IOW, Bockris had already discovered tritium from the D+D reaction, and all 
> they needed to do here - since they *found excess heat* - was to look for 
> tritium. As mentioned, the type of detector they were using would not 
> detect tritium. Yet they failed to do what any undergrad would have known 
> immediately to do. Bizarre.
>
> The answer, of course, to this conundrum and many similar, arguably 
> relates to politics - even in the relative calm of the USA before 9/11.
>
> [side note] Is everything before 9/11 "prehistory" or "pre-hysteria" ?
>
> Jones
>
>
> 


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  6 09:24:25 2005
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From: "Jones Beene" <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
To: "vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: A reappraisal of T in the early years
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 09:23:12 -0800
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Is Ester Hazy, or Esterhaus crazy ?... here is your long-awaited 
"Script-of-the-day" and some heavy "salt" to sprinkle on this 
food-for-thought vo-nosh.

In light of the recent focus here on the early days of CF - and 
the possibility that even nanograms of tritium, produced from the 
D+D reaction, would NOT have been sufficient to produce the excess 
heat seen in some of the early testing (by a factor of 10-100) 
according to Bockris and others..

Perhaps it is time to revisit the suggestion that tritium is 
important only in the role of  IGE "catalyst" - and not as fusion 
ash. Other radioactive species might work as well. Also at this 
time last year, there is a very relevant thread going on with the 
Cirillo paper and a report from P.J. van Noorden. More on that 
later.

The irony of tritium being present in amounts too low to explain 
the excess heat is clear - and it is what may have thrown-off many 
observers, and distracted them from finding accurate answers in 
the early years. That and a distaste for the hydrino concept. And 
the fact that both may be required is just too "over-the-top" and 
anti-Ockham for many, even today.

The low level of radiation makes the isotope very difficult to 
discover with normal lab tools - but ironically with a very 
sensitive tritium detector it is significantly *easier* to 
pinpoint this isotope *eventually* sigma ( >10 ) because it has a 
long half-life (unlike neutrons). ERGO it was discovered early on 
(1989) - but few scientists cared, and pursued this tact 
actively - why?

Since 3T could not explain the excess heat by a wide factor, and 
since it was a taboo word (for all practical purposes) it was 
generally ignored and only pursued by Tom Claytor since he is in 
the ideal situation for this. His cells could be shut down cooled 
and then a sample of the water taken from the cell, which will 
still be active for specialized testing, in the one place on earth 
where the detection has been raised to an artform. His plasma 
cells permitted direct measurement of extracted gas.

Consequently - for others - even though no meter is sensitive 
enough to detect it in a running cell, and few have access to it 
for calibration anyway - it was almost totally ignored.  When this 
factor is combined is a very critical detail - "heat after 
death" - it was very confusing - but both of these early CF 
phenomena, were witnessed by many.

Presently there is but one working scenario which accommodates 
both of these phenomena, IMHO.

That scenario is this: In those wet electrolytic cells where 
excess heat but a little 3T and no 4He is found, and especially in 
cells with K or Li electrolytes...Tritium (whether detected or 
not) is indeed created in tiny amounts in situ, but the nuclear 
reaction is responsible for only about 1% of the excess heat. The 
tritium is most useful as an IGE trigger for expanding a 
primordial population of metastable species of "below ground 
state" H (solar derived hydrogen and deuterium with "below ground 
state" 1/3 shrinkage and a "captured 5.6 eV photon) which is in 
the form of  electrolyte impurities - like heavy potash - KHyOH, 
or LiHyOH etc.

As a side effect of the triggering (by 5.6 eV average beta decay), 
more of this metastable species in then created in situ, as it is 
autocatalytic for the population of  n=1/2, but eventually it is 
all used up.

Excess heat is only seen repeatably when the **electrolyte is 
replaced constantly** something that lone inventors are adverse to 
do for financial reasons - but which is always the correct 
protocol for the government lab.

Jones

This "Script-of-the-day" ...was brought to you, commercial free, 
by the letter "E" as in Esterhazy -

Potash Supplier to the World. As the world's largest producer of 
potash, a key potassium-supplying ingredient of fertilizers, and 
eventually for Cold Fusion, the province of Saskatchewan, owes its 
economic windfall to geological history.

When the inland sea that once covered southern Saskatchewan 
evaporated, it left behind massive layers of potash (potassium 
chloride), about 1-2 kilometers below the prairie.  At the 
underground mines near Esterhazy, in the lower Qu'appelle Valley, 
millions of tons of potash are produced each year. In combination, 
the Esterhazy mines are the largest potash-producing facility in 
the world.

Not to be confused with the crazy Esterhaus of scriptdom... 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  6 09:40:38 2005
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Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 09:39:33 -0800 (PST)
From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: NASA confirms FP 
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On Tue, 6 Dec 2005, Nick Palmer wrote:

> One would have thought that true scientists would have gone on to test for
> the products of the aneutronic deuterium -> Tritium+ Hydrogen reaction!

"true scientists" is the key to understanding this and many other
situations.

I got some insight into the psychology of the CF problem when I started
applying Feynman's "Cargo Cult Science" to mainstream physics researchers.
As most people here probably know, this was Feynman's story of, among
other things, his exploits in nudist hottubs (!) at Esalen Community, and
encounters with all sorts of New Age practices.  His conclusion was that
the central key to science is not what everybody says it is.  Instead, it
is a bend-over-backwards honesty, and anyone who lacks this honesty is a
fraud, a scientist in name only, like a "pacific cargo cult" masquerading
as a real military airport.   They go through the actions, but for some
reason no progress occurs.


So...  current physics is just FILLED with outright pseudoscience, and we
can learn to see instances of this if we focus on the lack of extreme
honesty.  If someone has a PhD and publishes research papers, but isn't
behaving as a person of extreme honesty would behave, then they're not
only somewhat unethical scientists...  but also they're creating a facade
of science: Pseudoscience.

Once you name it, you start seeing it everywhere!  :)  The opponents of
new sciences have many names and use them constantly (e.g. crackpots,
woo-woos, etc.)  It's an effective tactic.  We should use it more often.

  Cargo Cult Science,  caltech commencement address, 1974
  http://www.physics.brocku.ca/etc/cargo_cult_science.html

  Feynman articles & links
  http://amasci.com/feynman.html


(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb at amasci com                         http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair
Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  6 10:34:42 2005
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Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 13:34:16 -0500
From: Harry Veeder <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: NASA confirms FP
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Jones Beene wrote:

> Nick Palmer writes
> 
>> One would have thought that true scientists would have gone on
>> to test for the products of the aneutronic deuterium -> Tritium+
>> Hydrogen reaction!
> 
> 
> Especially in light of the discovery earlier that year (1989) by
> Bockris of tritium in CF... which was alluded to in a recent post
> about the neglected importance of tritium and the possible
> political overtones of cheap tritium.
> 
> IOW, Bockris had already discovered tritium from the D+D reaction,
> and all they needed to do here - since they *found excess heat* -
> was to look for tritium. As mentioned, the type of detector they
> were using would not detect tritium. Yet they failed to do what
> any undergrad would have known immediately to do. Bizarre.
> 
> The answer, of course, to this conundrum and many similar,
> arguably relates to politics - even in the relative calm of the
> USA before 9/11.
> 
> [side note] Is everything before 9/11 "prehistory" or
> "pre-hysteria" ?
> 
> Jones
> 
> 

This is how think:

Show me the neutrons = Show me the money.

lol

Harry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  6 10:41:52 2005
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From: Harry Veeder <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: Vortex motion
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Thanks for the link, but "I still haven't found what I am looking for..."
No worries.
;-)
Harry

RC Macaulay wrote:

> Hi Harry,
> Look at some of the graphics in the link below for vortex pflow in rivers
> and streams. Click on the picture and it will take you to the individual
> sites with explanation. While this link has some interesting views, it also
> , unfortunately, has an abundance of political and philisopical views that
> detract from the essence of the message.
> Richard
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.vortexpluswater.com/vortex_basics.htm
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Harry Veeder" <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca>
> To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2005 11:09 PM
> Subject: Vortex motion
> 
> 
>> For those people who observe vortices, I am curious about how vortices
>> travel in flowing water.
>> 
>> If a vortex is created in a stream of water which is flowing with uniform
>> velocity, will the centre of the vortex move in the same direction as the
>> stream
>> or will the centre veer right or left depending on its rotation?
>> 
>> Harry
>> 
>> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  6 10:47:52 2005
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Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 10:46:55 -0800 (PST)
From: Merlyn <merlyn_3k yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: OT: Secrets of bee flight revealed
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I most humbly (or perhaps not so humbly) beg to
differ.

--- William Beaty <billb eskimo.com> wrote:

> In other words... (and in big capital letters,)
> 
>    ALL FLIGHT IS BASED ON VORTEX-SHEDDING
> 
> Corellary: if your explanation of flight does not
> include vortex-shedding,
> then it is wrong.
> 


I don't agree with Bernoulli, but pressure is still
the key.
As the wing pushes through the air, the leading edge
divides the air into roughly equivalent parts flowing
above and below.  The thickest part of the wing lies
in the front third of it's depth.  After this point,
the top of the wing drops, while the bottom remains
effectively flat.  This produces an area above the
wing of lower pressure which lifts the wing.  The area
below the wing has a slightly higher pressure, and
when this spills up around the wingtip it creates the
vortex.

As far as wingtip vortices go, I have some
counterexamples for you.
Airplane engineers have often over the years sought to
reduce or even eliminate the vortices coming off the
wingtips of a jet, many methods of this were
accomplished, without reducing the wings lift.
http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/airdef/f-94.htm
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/c-20.htm

Also, many military planes mount missiles on the very
tip of the wing, which would dramatically change the
flight capability of a plane if the vortices were the
primary source of lift.
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/f-16.htm

Merlyn
Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist


		
__________________________________________ 
Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about. 
Just $16.99/mo. or less. 
dsl.yahoo.com 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  6 11:23:14 2005
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From: OrionWorks <orionworks charter.net>
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Subject: OT: Subscribing to the Knowledge of the Gods
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Recent exchanges between Mr. Rothwell and Mr. Wesley concerning the topic of "Absolute Truth" brings to mind a terrible trap I believe we all must be careful not to fall into: Subscribing to the Knowledge of the Gods.

Mr. Wesley reminds us that we have recently lived in an age where "Atheism used guns to attempt to enforce its will." (Germany, WWII and Nazism, of course, comes to mind.) However, Mr. Wesley goes on to state that "Christians like me don't mind the harmless atheists." ...and I'm not going to let such an arrogant conjecture stand unchallenged.

The sword that yields the Knowledge of the Gods is a double-edged one. It's easy to substitute the philosophy of "Atheism" with any god-fearing brand of religion and, going back through history, find EXACTLY the same despicable carnage performed on others.

One of the best PBS TV programs I ever saw that dealt with this issue was authored by the late Jacob Browonski. I'm referring to the "The Ascent of Man" mini-series, first aired back in the 1970s. The particular installment that comes to mind is titled "Knowledge or Certainty."

For reference see:
http://ronrecord.com/Quotes/bronowski.html

>From the "Knowledge or Certainty", an episode from the 1973 BBC series "The Ascent of Man", transcribed by Evan Hunt: 

Quoting Jacob Bronowski:

----------------------------------------------------------
The Principle of Uncertainty is a bad name. In science--or outside of it--we are not uncertain; our knowledge is merely confined, within a certain tolerance. We should call it the Principle of Tolerance. And I propose that name in two senses: First, in the engineering sense--science has progressed, step by step, the most successful enterprise in the ascent of man, because it has understood that the exchange of information between man and nature, and man and man, can only take place with a certain tolerance. 

But second, I also use the word, passionately, about the real world. All knowledge--all information between human beings--can only be exchanged within a play of tolerance. And that is true whether the exchange is in science, or in literature, or in religion, or in politics, or in *any* form of thought that aspires to dogma. It's a major tragedy of my lifetime and yours that scientists were refining, to the most exquisite precision, the Principle of Tolerance--and turning their backs on the fact that all around them, tolerance was crashing to the ground beyond repair. 

The Principle of Uncertainty or, in my phrase, the Principle of Tolerance, fixed once for all the realization that all knowledge is limited. It is an irony of history that at the very time when this was being worked out there should rise, under Hitler in Germany and other tyrants elsewhere, a counter-conception: a principle of monstrous certainty. When the future looks back on the 1930s it will think of them as a crucial confrontation of culture as I have been expounding it, the ascent of man, against the throwback to the despots' belief that they have absolute certainty. 

It is said that science will dehumanize people and turn them into numbers. That is false: tragically false. Look for yourself. This is the concentration camp and crematorium at Auschwitz. [The viewer sees Bronowsky walk directly into the marshlands near Auschwitz where millions of Jews were cremated.] *This* is where people were turned into numbers. Into this pond were flushed the ashes of four million people. And that was not done by gas. It was done by arrogance. It was done by dogma. It was done by ignorance. When people believe that they have absolute knowledge, with no test in reality--this is how they behave. This is what men do when they aspire to the knowledge of gods. 

Science is a very human form of knowledge. We are always at the brink of the known; we always feel forward for what is to be hoped. Every judgment in science stands on the edge or error, and is personal. Science is a tribute to what we *can* know although we are fallible. In the end, the words were said by Oliver Cromwell: "I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ: Think it possible you may be mistaken." 

We have to cure ourselves of the itch for absolute knowledge and power. We have to close the distance between the push-button order and the human act. We have to *touch people*.
-------------------------------------------------------

While Bronowski's essay was directed in the most immediate sense at the atrocities of Nazism his words accurately reflect the misdeeds any philosophy that subscribes to the Knowledge of the Gods, whether it is based on atheism or theism, can do to mankind.

Arrogance is an equal opportunity employer.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

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From: leaking pen <itsatrap gmail.com>
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"Christians like me don't mind the harmless atheists."

missed that one...

really now.  pay any attention to people like Bush, who stated that athiest=
s
cant be considered patriots, and are a danger to the country?  hows about
pat robertson, who prays for the death of athiests daily, and wants a
national religion imposed with penalties for those who dont proscribe.

christians like YOU, perhaps, i dont know what kind of christian you are.
christians like ME, definately.  but most christians...  no.  they are quit=
e
harmful and hatefull towards others.  atheist or non.


On 12/6/05, OrionWorks <orionworks charter.net> wrote:
>
> Recent exchanges between Mr. Rothwell and Mr. Wesley concerning the topic
> of "Absolute Truth" brings to mind a terrible trap I believe we all must =
be
> careful not to fall into: Subscribing to the Knowledge of the Gods.
>
> Mr. Wesley reminds us that we have recently lived in an age where "Atheis=
m
> used guns to attempt to enforce its will." (Germany, WWII and Nazism, of
> course, comes to mind.) However, Mr. Wesley goes on to state that
> "Christians like me don't mind the harmless atheists." ...and I'm not goi=
ng
> to let such an arrogant conjecture stand unchallenged.
>
> The sword that yields the Knowledge of the Gods is a double-edged one.
> It's easy to substitute the philosophy of "Atheism" with any god-fearing
> brand of religion and, going back through history, find EXACTLY the same
> despicable carnage performed on others.
>
> One of the best PBS TV programs I ever saw that dealt with this issue was
> authored by the late Jacob Browonski. I'm referring to the "The Ascent of
> Man" mini-series, first aired back in the 1970s. The particular installme=
nt
> that comes to mind is titled "Knowledge or Certainty."
>
> For reference see:
> http://ronrecord.com/Quotes/bronowski.html
>
> From the "Knowledge or Certainty", an episode from the 1973 BBC series
> "The Ascent of Man", transcribed by Evan Hunt:
>
> Quoting Jacob Bronowski:
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> The Principle of Uncertainty is a bad name. In science--or outside of
> it--we are not uncertain; our knowledge is merely confined, within a cert=
ain
> tolerance. We should call it the Principle of Tolerance. And I propose th=
at
> name in two senses: First, in the engineering sense--science has progress=
ed,
> step by step, the most successful enterprise in the ascent of man, becaus=
e
> it has understood that the exchange of information between man and nature=
,
> and man and man, can only take place with a certain tolerance.
>
> But second, I also use the word, passionately, about the real world. All
> knowledge--all information between human beings--can only be exchanged
> within a play of tolerance. And that is true whether the exchange is in
> science, or in literature, or in religion, or in politics, or in *any* fo=
rm
> of thought that aspires to dogma. It's a major tragedy of my lifetime and
> yours that scientists were refining, to the most exquisite precision, the
> Principle of Tolerance--and turning their backs on the fact that all arou=
nd
> them, tolerance was crashing to the ground beyond repair.
>
> The Principle of Uncertainty or, in my phrase, the Principle of Tolerance=
,
> fixed once for all the realization that all knowledge is limited. It is a=
n
> irony of history that at the very time when this was being worked out the=
re
> should rise, under Hitler in Germany and other tyrants elsewhere, a
> counter-conception: a principle of monstrous certainty. When the future
> looks back on the 1930s it will think of them as a crucial confrontation =
of
> culture as I have been expounding it, the ascent of man, against the
> throwback to the despots' belief that they have absolute certainty.
>
> It is said that science will dehumanize people and turn them into numbers=
.
> That is false: tragically false. Look for yourself. This is the
> concentration camp and crematorium at Auschwitz. [The viewer sees Bronows=
ky
> walk directly into the marshlands near Auschwitz where millions of Jews w=
ere
> cremated.] *This* is where people were turned into numbers. Into this pon=
d
> were flushed the ashes of four million people. And that was not done by g=
as.
> It was done by arrogance. It was done by dogma. It was done by ignorance.
> When people believe that they have absolute knowledge, with no test in
> reality--this is how they behave. This is what men do when they aspire to
> the knowledge of gods.
>
> Science is a very human form of knowledge. We are always at the brink of
> the known; we always feel forward for what is to be hoped. Every judgment=
 in
> science stands on the edge or error, and is personal. Science is a tribut=
e
> to what we *can* know although we are fallible. In the end, the words wer=
e
> said by Oliver Cromwell: "I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ: Think i=
t
> possible you may be mistaken."
>
> We have to cure ourselves of the itch for absolute knowledge and power. W=
e
> have to close the distance between the push-button order and the human ac=
t.
> We have to *touch people*.
> -------------------------------------------------------
>
> While Bronowski's essay was directed in the most immediate sense at the
> atrocities of Nazism his words accurately reflect the misdeeds any
> philosophy that subscribes to the Knowledge of the Gods, whether it is ba=
sed
> on atheism or theism, can do to mankind.
>
> Arrogance is an equal opportunity employer.
>
> Regards,
> Steven Vincent Johnson
> www.OrionWorks.com
>
>


--
"Monsieur l'abb=E9, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to ma=
ke
it possible for you to continue to write"  Voltaire

------=_Part_7177_5199761.1133897858074
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: inline

<div>&quot;Christians like me don't mind the harmless atheists.&quot; </div=
>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>missed that one...</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>really now.&nbsp; pay any attention to people like Bush, who stated th=
at athiests cant be considered patriots, and are a danger to the country?&n=
bsp; hows about pat robertson, who prays for the death of athiests daily, a=
nd wants a national religion imposed with penalties for those who dont pros=
cribe.=20
</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>christians like YOU, perhaps, i dont know what kind of christian you a=
re.&nbsp; christians like ME, definately.&nbsp; but most christians...&nbsp=
; no.&nbsp; they are quite harmful and hatefull towards others.&nbsp; athei=
st or non. <br><br>&nbsp;
</div>
<div><span class=3D"gmail_quote">On 12/6/05, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">=
OrionWorks</b> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:orionworks charter.net">orionworks@cha=
rter.net</a>&gt; wrote:</span>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">Recent exchanges between Mr. Rot=
hwell and Mr. Wesley concerning the topic of &quot;Absolute Truth&quot; bri=
ngs to mind a terrible trap I believe we all must be careful not to fall in=
to: Subscribing to the Knowledge of the Gods.
<br><br>Mr. Wesley reminds us that we have recently lived in an age where &=
quot;Atheism used guns to attempt to enforce its will.&quot; (Germany, WWII=
 and Nazism, of course, comes to mind.) However, Mr. Wesley goes on to stat=
e that &quot;Christians like me don't mind the harmless atheists.&quot; ...=
and I'm not going to let such an arrogant conjecture stand unchallenged.
<br><br>The sword that yields the Knowledge of the Gods is a double-edged o=
ne. It's easy to substitute the philosophy of &quot;Atheism&quot; with any =
god-fearing brand of religion and, going back through history, find EXACTLY=
 the same despicable carnage performed on others.
<br><br>One of the best PBS TV programs I ever saw that dealt with this iss=
ue was authored by the late Jacob Browonski. I'm referring to the &quot;The=
 Ascent of Man&quot; mini-series, first aired back in the 1970s. The partic=
ular installment that comes to mind is titled &quot;Knowledge or Certainty.=
&quot;
<br><br>For reference see:<br><a href=3D"http://ronrecord.com/Quotes/bronow=
ski.html">http://ronrecord.com/Quotes/bronowski.html</a><br><br>From the &q=
uot;Knowledge or Certainty&quot;, an episode from the 1973 BBC series &quot=
;The Ascent of Man&quot;, transcribed by Evan Hunt:
<br><br>Quoting Jacob Bronowski:<br><br>-----------------------------------=
-----------------------<br>The Principle of Uncertainty is a bad name. In s=
cience--or outside of it--we are not uncertain; our knowledge is merely con=
fined, within a certain tolerance. We should call it the Principle of Toler=
ance. And I propose that name in two senses: First, in the engineering sens=
e--science has progressed, step by step, the most successful enterprise in =
the ascent of man, because it has understood that the exchange of informati=
on between man and nature, and man and man, can only take place with a cert=
ain tolerance.
<br><br>But second, I also use the word, passionately, about the real world=
. All knowledge--all information between human beings--can only be exchange=
d within a play of tolerance. And that is true whether the exchange is in s=
cience, or in literature, or in religion, or in politics, or in *any* form =
of thought that aspires to dogma. It's a major tragedy of my lifetime and y=
ours that scientists were refining, to the most exquisite precision, the Pr=
inciple of Tolerance--and turning their backs on the fact that all around t=
hem, tolerance was crashing to the ground beyond repair.
<br><br>The Principle of Uncertainty or, in my phrase, the Principle of Tol=
erance, fixed once for all the realization that all knowledge is limited. I=
t is an irony of history that at the very time when this was being worked o=
ut there should rise, under Hitler in Germany and other tyrants elsewhere, =
a counter-conception: a principle of monstrous certainty. When the future l=
ooks back on the 1930s it will think of them as a crucial confrontation of =
culture as I have been expounding it, the ascent of man, against the throwb=
ack to the despots' belief that they have absolute certainty.
<br><br>It is said that science will dehumanize people and turn them into n=
umbers. That is false: tragically false. Look for yourself. This is the con=
centration camp and crematorium at Auschwitz. [The viewer sees Bronowsky wa=
lk directly into the marshlands near Auschwitz where millions of Jews were =
cremated.] *This* is where people were turned into numbers. Into this pond =
were flushed the ashes of four million people. And that was not done by gas=
. It was done by arrogance. It was done by dogma. It was done by ignorance.=
 When people believe that they have absolute knowledge, with no test in rea=
lity--this is how they behave. This is what men do when they aspire to the =
knowledge of gods.
<br><br>Science is a very human form of knowledge. We are always at the bri=
nk of the known; we always feel forward for what is to be hoped. Every judg=
ment in science stands on the edge or error, and is personal. Science is a =
tribute to what we *can* know although we are fallible. In the end, the wor=
ds were said by Oliver Cromwell: &quot;I beseech you, in the bowels of Chri=
st: Think it possible you may be mistaken.&quot;
<br><br>We have to cure ourselves of the itch for absolute knowledge and po=
wer. We have to close the distance between the push-button order and the hu=
man act. We have to *touch people*.<br>------------------------------------=
-------------------
<br><br>While Bronowski's essay was directed in the most immediate sense at=
 the atrocities of Nazism his words accurately reflect the misdeeds any phi=
losophy that subscribes to the Knowledge of the Gods, whether it is based o=
n atheism or theism, can do to mankind.
<br><br>Arrogance is an equal opportunity employer.<br><br>Regards,<br>Stev=
en Vincent Johnson<br><a href=3D"http://www.OrionWorks.com">www.OrionWorks.=
com</a><br><br></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br>&quot;Mo=
nsieur l'abb=E9, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make =
it possible for you to continue to write&quot;&nbsp;&nbsp;Voltaire=20

------=_Part_7177_5199761.1133897858074--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  6 11:50:30 2005
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Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 14:49:34 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: OT: Subscribing to the Knowledge of the Gods
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OrionWorks wrote:

>Recent exchanges between Mr. Rothwell and Mr. Wesley concerning the 
>topic of "Absolute Truth" brings to mind a terrible trap I believe 
>we all must be careful not to fall into: Subscribing to the 
>Knowledge of the Gods.

Good point. I do not think people are capable of knowing absolute 
truth, and I am not even sure there is such a thing. There is always 
some margin of doubt, although it is small for things like Newton's laws.


>Mr. Wesley reminds us that we have recently lived in an age where 
>"Atheism used guns to attempt to enforce its will." (Germany, WWII 
>and Nazism, of course, comes to mind.)

Actually most Germans in WWII were quite religious, and the soldiers 
all wore belt buckles engraved with the motto, "God is with us." (See 
the movie "Stalingrad.") Some of the German leaders were atheists, 
but so was Winston Churchill for that matter. At least, he said of 
himself privately, "I am not a religious man." Overall, the war 
produced a sharp decline in religious belief and church attendance 
throughout Europe and Japan.

- Jed


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From: OrionWorks <orionworks charter.net>
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> From: leaking pen
> 
> "Christians like me don't mind the harmless atheists."
> 
> missed that one...
> 
> really now.  pay any attention to people like Bush, who
> stated that athiests cant be considered patriots, and
> are a danger to the country?  hows about pat robertson,
> who prays for the death of athiests daily, and wants a
> national religion imposed with penalties for those who
> dont proscribe.
> 
> christians like YOU, perhaps, i dont know what kind of
> christian you are. christians like ME, definately.  but
> most christians...  no.  they are quite harmful and
> hatefull towards others.  atheist or non.

Well, Mr. Leak,

You still missed it. In fact I think you completely missed the entire context of my post.

You imply that I personally stated "Christians like me don't mind the harmless atheists." If you have an issue with the above statement I suggest you take it up with Mr. Wesley as he was responsible for saying it, not me.

I really would recommend that you read posts attributed to me more carefully before, figuratively speaking, pointing your accusing finger at me and labeling me as some "kind of [a] Christian" and lumping my alleged religious predilections with the likes of Bush Jr. and Pat Robertson.

You're right about one thing, however. You don't know what kind of a "Christian" I might be, as I have never stated that I am one.

I've also never stated I'm an atheist either.

Please read my posts more carefully before labeling me.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

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http://www.whatdoesitmean.com/index798.htm

http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2005/08/322996.shtml

http://www.multimediastory.com/archives/out-to-get-iran.html

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/august2005/100805fourstargeneral.htm


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There appears to be a convergence occuring.  It is appearing in 
scientific and esoteric realms.  It's just an opinion . . . an 
observation.

But it is likely an undigested piece of beef affecting these fragile 
senses.  ;-)

-----Original Message-----
From: Grimer <f.grimer grimer2.freeserve.co.uk>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Sent: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 03:52:49 +0000
Subject: Re: Valone Arbitration Ruling

At 09:09 pm 05/12/2005 -0500, you wrote:

>Something is afoot, IMO.
>
>Something . . . wonderful.
>


What?

Don't be a tease.  8-)
Do tell us.

I'm all ears.

Frank Grimer


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From: leaking pen <itsatrap gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: OT: Subscribing to the Knowledge of the Gods
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Pardon, but i was responding to Mr. Wesley, as I had missed the thread in
which he had made the statement, and was quite sure he would read THIS
thread as well.  I was not responding to you. Perhaps YOU should read posts
more carefully before assuming that something is aimed at you that isn't.
You seemed rather eager to take the finger that wasn't pointed at you.

On 12/6/05, OrionWorks <orionworks charter.net> wrote:
>
> > From: leaking pen
> >
> > "Christians like me don't mind the harmless atheists."
> >
> > missed that one...
> >
> > really now.  pay any attention to people like Bush, who
> > stated that athiests cant be considered patriots, and
> > are a danger to the country?  hows about pat robertson,
> > who prays for the death of athiests daily, and wants a
> > national religion imposed with penalties for those who
> > dont proscribe.
> >
> > christians like YOU, perhaps, i dont know what kind of
> > christian you are. christians like ME, definately.  but
> > most christians...  no.  they are quite harmful and
> > hatefull towards others.  atheist or non.
>
> Well, Mr. Leak,
>
> You still missed it. In fact I think you completely missed the entire
> context of my post.
>
> You imply that I personally stated "Christians like me don't mind the
> harmless atheists." If you have an issue with the above statement I sugge=
st
> you take it up with Mr. Wesley as he was responsible for saying it, not m=
e.
>
> I really would recommend that you read posts attributed to me more
> carefully before, figuratively speaking, pointing your accusing finger at=
 me
> and labeling me as some "kind of [a] Christian" and lumping my alleged
> religious predilections with the likes of Bush Jr. and Pat Robertson.
>
> You're right about one thing, however. You don't know what kind of a
> "Christian" I might be, as I have never stated that I am one.
>
> I've also never stated I'm an atheist either.
>
> Please read my posts more carefully before labeling me.
>
> Regards,
> Steven Vincent Johnson
> www.OrionWorks.com
>
>


--
"Monsieur l'abb=E9, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to ma=
ke
it possible for you to continue to write"  Voltaire

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Pardon, but&nbsp;i was responding to Mr. Wesley, as I had missed the thread=
 in which he had made the statement, and was quite sure he would read THIS =
thread as well.&nbsp; I was not responding to you. Perhaps YOU should read =
posts more carefully before assuming that something is aimed at you that is=
n't.&nbsp; You seemed rather eager to take the finger that wasn't pointed a=
t you.=20
<br><br>
<div><span class=3D"gmail_quote">On 12/6/05, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">=
OrionWorks</b> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:orionworks charter.net">orionworks@cha=
rter.net</a>&gt; wrote:</span>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">&gt; From: leaking pen<br>&gt;<b=
r>&gt; &quot;Christians like me don't mind the harmless atheists.&quot;<br>
&gt;<br>&gt; missed that one...<br>&gt;<br>&gt; really now.&nbsp;&nbsp;pay =
any attention to people like Bush, who<br>&gt; stated that athiests cant be=
 considered patriots, and<br>&gt; are a danger to the country?&nbsp;&nbsp;h=
ows about pat robertson,
<br>&gt; who prays for the death of athiests daily, and wants a<br>&gt; nat=
ional religion imposed with penalties for those who<br>&gt; dont proscribe.=
<br>&gt;<br>&gt; christians like YOU, perhaps, i dont know what kind of
<br>&gt; christian you are. christians like ME, definately.&nbsp;&nbsp;but<=
br>&gt; most christians...&nbsp;&nbsp;no.&nbsp;&nbsp;they are quite harmful=
 and<br>&gt; hatefull towards others.&nbsp;&nbsp;atheist or non.<br><br>Wel=
l, Mr. Leak,<br><br>You still missed it. In fact I think you completely mis=
sed the entire context of my post.
<br><br>You imply that I personally stated &quot;Christians like me don't m=
ind the harmless atheists.&quot; If you have an issue with the above statem=
ent I suggest you take it up with Mr. Wesley as he was responsible for sayi=
ng it, not me.
<br><br>I really would recommend that you read posts attributed to me more =
carefully before, figuratively speaking, pointing your accusing finger at m=
e and labeling me as some &quot;kind of [a] Christian&quot; and lumping my =
alleged religious predilections with the likes of Bush Jr. and Pat Robertso=
n.
<br><br>You're right about one thing, however. You don't know what kind of =
a &quot;Christian&quot; I might be, as I have never stated that I am one.<b=
r><br>I've also never stated I'm an atheist either.<br><br>Please read my p=
osts more carefully before labeling me.
<br><br>Regards,<br>Steven Vincent Johnson<br><a href=3D"http://www.OrionWo=
rks.com">www.OrionWorks.com</a><br><br></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"=
all"><br>-- <br>&quot;Monsieur l'abb=E9, I detest what you write, but I wou=
ld give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write&quot;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;Voltaire=20

------=_Part_7917_3192686.1133901894997--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  6 12:53:20 2005
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Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 15:52:24 -0500
From: Harry Veeder <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: OT: Secrets of bee flight revealed
In-reply-to: <20051206184655.55414.qmail web32207.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
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This is a great discussion. Who can fail to wonder about the principles of
flight?

Bernoulli's principle is almost magical. It says the same air mass which
separates at the leading edge of the wing reunites at the trailing edge. Due
to the shape of a wing this requires that the air mass moving over the top
must travel a greater distance in the same period of time as the air mass at
the bottom of the wing. The question is how does the top air mass manage to
speed up and then slow down again so it reunites with the bottom air mass at
just the right time. How does the air manage to move in such a co-ordinated
fashion?  


Here is another explanation.
First consider a flat plate in free fall. As the plate falls it creates a
region of low pressure above the plate: a sort of suction effect. This slows
the descent of the plate.

What then is the function of the classic airfoil cross section?
The shape increases the suction power enough on the wing so that it can stay
aloft and travel in level flight.

Harry



Merlyn wrote:

> I most humbly (or perhaps not so humbly) beg to
> differ.
> 
> --- William Beaty <billb eskimo.com> wrote:
> 
>> In other words... (and in big capital letters,)
>> 
>> ALL FLIGHT IS BASED ON VORTEX-SHEDDING
>> 
>> Corellary: if your explanation of flight does not
>> include vortex-shedding,
>> then it is wrong.
>> 
> 
> 
> I don't agree with Bernoulli, but pressure is still
> the key.
> As the wing pushes through the air, the leading edge
> divides the air into roughly equivalent parts flowing
> above and below.  The thickest part of the wing lies
> in the front third of it's depth.  After this point,
> the top of the wing drops, while the bottom remains
> effectively flat.  This produces an area above the
> wing of lower pressure which lifts the wing.  The area
> below the wing has a slightly higher pressure, and
> when this spills up around the wingtip it creates the
> vortex.
> 
> As far as wingtip vortices go, I have some
> counterexamples for you.
> Airplane engineers have often over the years sought to
> reduce or even eliminate the vortices coming off the
> wingtips of a jet, many methods of this were
> accomplished, without reducing the wings lift.
> http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/airdef/f-94.htm
> http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/c-20.htm
> 
> Also, many military planes mount missiles on the very
> tip of the wing, which would dramatically change the
> flight capability of a plane if the vortices were the
> primary source of lift.
> http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/f-16.htm
> 
> Merlyn
> Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist
> 
> 
> 
> __________________________________________
> Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about.
> Just $16.99/mo. or less.
> dsl.yahoo.com 
> 


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leaking pen wrote:

> Pardon, but i was responding to Mr. Wesley, 

Ahem.

You often top-post and, in the message in contention, you did not 
include a greeting.

That combination is an almost sure-fire way to confuse people regarding 
exactly to whom you think you're responding, because your response is 
floating in the air, all alone, at the top of the message with no tag of 
any sort to indicate the recipient.

Since you didn't say "Dear Mr. Wesley" nor give any other indication 
that it was Wesley, not OrionWorks, to whom you were directing the 
words, and since the message to which you were responding was from 
OrionWorks, his conclusion that he was the antecedent of the "YOU" in 
your message does not seem especially unreasonable.

In the face of the onrushing night of Unreason the non-holy-rollers in 
the group should strive dilligently to avoid squabbles among themselves, 
and keep in mind that the goal should be to work together to retain a 
few candles with which to negotiate the darkness.

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Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 14:56:37 -0700
From: leaking pen <itsatrap gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: OT: Subscribing to the Knowledge of the Gods
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then he should of asked before assuming, the same crime he accused me of.

On 12/6/05, Stephen A. Lawrence <salaw pobox.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> leaking pen wrote:
>
> > Pardon, but i was responding to Mr. Wesley,
>
> Ahem.
>
> You often top-post and, in the message in contention, you did not
> include a greeting.
>
> That combination is an almost sure-fire way to confuse people regarding
> exactly to whom you think you're responding, because your response is
> floating in the air, all alone, at the top of the message with no tag of
> any sort to indicate the recipient.
>
> Since you didn't say "Dear Mr. Wesley" nor give any other indication
> that it was Wesley, not OrionWorks, to whom you were directing the
> words, and since the message to which you were responding was from
> OrionWorks, his conclusion that he was the antecedent of the "YOU" in
> your message does not seem especially unreasonable.
>
> In the face of the onrushing night of Unreason the non-holy-rollers in
> the group should strive dilligently to avoid squabbles among themselves,
> and keep in mind that the goal should be to work together to retain a
> few candles with which to negotiate the darkness.
>
>


--
"Monsieur l'abb=E9, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to ma=
ke
it possible for you to continue to write"  Voltaire

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then he should of asked before assuming, the same crime he accused me of. <=
br><br>
<div><span class=3D"gmail_quote">On 12/6/05, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">=
Stephen A. Lawrence</b> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:salaw pobox.com">salaw@pobox.=
com</a>&gt; wrote:</span>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid"><br><br>leaking pen wrote:<br><b=
r>&gt; Pardon, but i was responding to Mr. Wesley,<br><br>Ahem.<br><br>You =
often top-post and, in the message in contention, you did not
<br>include a greeting.<br><br>That combination is an almost sure-fire way =
to confuse people regarding<br>exactly to whom you think you're responding,=
 because your response is<br>floating in the air, all alone, at the top of =
the message with no tag of
<br>any sort to indicate the recipient.<br><br>Since you didn't say &quot;D=
ear Mr. Wesley&quot; nor give any other indication<br>that it was Wesley, n=
ot OrionWorks, to whom you were directing the<br>words, and since the messa=
ge to which you were responding was from
<br>OrionWorks, his conclusion that he was the antecedent of the &quot;YOU&=
quot; in<br>your message does not seem especially unreasonable.<br><br>In t=
he face of the onrushing night of Unreason the non-holy-rollers in<br>the g=
roup should strive dilligently to avoid squabbles among themselves,
<br>and keep in mind that the goal should be to work together to retain a<b=
r>few candles with which to negotiate the darkness.<br><br></blockquote></d=
iv><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br>&quot;Monsieur l'abb=E9, I detest what =
you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue=
 to write&quot;&nbsp;&nbsp;Voltaire=20

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From: OrionWorks <orionworks charter.net>
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> From: leaking pen 

> then he should of asked before assuming, the same
> crime he accused me of.


[FYI, my Charter.net email is acting extremely flaky today. Several posts I've attempted to make to Vortex have been returned as undeliverable, or simply eliminated with no explanation. This is my fourth attempt to reply to Mr. Leak, the second to his latest reply.]

With that said...

Greetings again, Mr. Leak,

I think you're sulking. Take heart. I'm guilty of luxuriated in the emotion myself on occasion.

Mr. Lawrence has already spoken rather eloquently on this point. However, tell you what. I'll work on my over eager fickle finger of accusation if you try working on your addressing skills.

You will note that I often address whom I'm responding to very clearly, usually at the beginning of any post I make. It helps avoid potential confusions as to whom my comments are actually being addressed to.

I think you may not have fully realized the fact that I had created a brand new subject thread and quoted a statement from Mr. Wesley. In my brand new subject thread Mr. Wesley has NEVER MADE a direct contribution to it, so I don't understand how you assume that everyone would naturally understand that your comments were actually addressed to him?

Quite frankly, I would have offered up a sincere public apology had you received both Mr. Wesley's post and mine, AND that both posts were made in the same subject thread. However, as you had originally stated, at the time of your post you had ONLY received MY follow-up post, and not Mr. Wesley's. That's because Mr. Wesley has, so far, not made any follow-up posts to my new subject thread. Again, how do you assume that everyone would naturally take your comments as directed at Mr. Wesley?

I therefore feel justified in repeating: Please read my posts more carefully, and respond accordingly...and I, in turn, will work a little harder on reining in my waging fickle finger of shame.

Goodness gracious me! Did I just start a flame war?

Gag me with a spoon!

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  6 14:45:22 2005
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> From: leaking pen 
> 
> Pardon, but i was responding to Mr. Wesley, as I had
> missed the thread in which he had made the statement,
> and was quite sure he would read THIS thread as well.  
> I was not responding to you. Perhaps YOU should read
> posts more carefully before assuming that something is
> aimed at you that isn't. You seemed rather eager to take
> the finger that wasn't pointed at you.


Greetings again, Mr. Leak,

Mr. Lawrence has already spoken rather eloquently on this point. However, tell you what. I'll work on my over eager fickle finger of accusation if you try working on your addressing skills.

You will note that I often address whom I'm responding to very clearly, usually at the beginning of any post I make. It helps avoid potential confusions as to whom my comments are actually being addressed to.

I think you may have missed the fact that I created a brand new subject thread where I quoted a statement from Mr. Wesley. In my brand new subject thread Mr. Wesley has NEVER MADE a direct contribution to it, so how can you assume that everyone would naturally understand that your comments were actually addressed to him?

Quite frankly, I would have offered up a sincere public apology had you received both Mr. Wesley's post and mine, AND that both posts were made in the same subject thread. However, as you have stated, at the time of your post you had ONLY received MY follow-up post, and not Mr. Wesley's. That's because Mr. Wesley has, so far, not made any follow-up posts to my new subject thread. Again, how do you assume that everyone would naturally take your comments as directed at Mr. Wesley?

I therefore feel justified in repeating: Please read my posts more carefully, and respond accordingly

As Mr. Lawrence as already suggested, simply addressing whom your comments were meant for would have alleviated a lot of confusion you are directly responsible for creating.

Goodness gracious me! Did I just start a flame war?

Gag me with a spoon!

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  6 15:13:13 2005
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From: "Rick Monteverde" <rick highsurf.com>
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Subject: RE: OT: Secrets of bee flight revealed
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I don't believe the pressure differential is the full source of lift,
though I don't doubt a differential exists. I've seen it work
differently first hand.

Hang a spoon against the flow of water from a faucet, bottom side
against the flow. No magic, just water sticking to the spoon due to
mysterious forces between objects (ok, little bit of magic). The water
flows along the curve of the spoon, then gets hurled off at a slight
angle, shedding a 'vortex', or at least a curve that might be considered
part of a large partially formed vortex. The hurling at a slight angle
causes the thrust - would be lift if the thing were horizontal instead
of vertical. The water on the other side of the spoon provides no
"pressure" because there isn't any water there.

I've tried this in a vacuum jar running a strong/fast pump to hold a
good vacuum, then using a small jet of air over a wing-shaped object.
Still works - the curved piece experiences a force into the stream.
Although I did not measure pressure top and bottom on the small wing
piece, the pressure in the jar was very low, and the stream coming out
of the tube was basically at room pressure. Again, the cool part of this
is that the stream adheres to the upper surface even as the surface
curves away from the straight line, apparently due to the same forces
that hold gekkos to walls. Airplanes are ZPE machines, sort of.

I think conventional steady-state wings get lift from a combination of
being a wedge, and a mover of reaction mass. Flat surfaced flapping
wings - mostly viscous drag and reaction mass, and maybe a little bit
wedge at certain parts of their cycle.

- Rick



-----Original Message-----
From: Merlyn [mailto:merlyn_3k yahoo.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 8:47 AM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: OT: Secrets of bee flight revealed


I most humbly (or perhaps not so humbly) beg to
differ.

--- William Beaty <billb eskimo.com> wrote:

> In other words... (and in big capital letters,)
> 
>    ALL FLIGHT IS BASED ON VORTEX-SHEDDING
> 
> Corellary: if your explanation of flight does not
> include vortex-shedding,
> then it is wrong.
> 


I don't agree with Bernoulli, but pressure is still
the key.
As the wing pushes through the air, the leading edge
divides the air into roughly equivalent parts flowing
above and below.  The thickest part of the wing lies
in the front third of it's depth.  After this point,
the top of the wing drops, while the bottom remains
effectively flat.  This produces an area above the
wing of lower pressure which lifts the wing.  The area
below the wing has a slightly higher pressure, and
when this spills up around the wingtip it creates the
vortex.

As far as wingtip vortices go, I have some
counterexamples for you.
Airplane engineers have often over the years sought to
reduce or even eliminate the vortices coming off the
wingtips of a jet, many methods of this were
accomplished, without reducing the wings lift.
http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/airdef/f-94.htm
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/c-20.htm

Also, many military planes mount missiles on the very
tip of the wing, which would dramatically change the
flight capability of a plane if the vortices were the
primary source of lift. http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/f-16.htm

Merlyn
Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist


		
__________________________________________ 
Yahoo! DSL - Something to write home about. 
Just $16.99/mo. or less. 
dsl.yahoo.com 





From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  6 15:18:07 2005
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Thanks to Shinya Narita for compiling the ICCF12 abstracts.

They are available on the New Energy Times Web site here 
http://newenergytimes.com/Conf/ICCF12/ICCF12-Abstracts.pdf


Steven B. Krivit
Editor, New Energy Times
Executive Director, New Energy Institute Inc.

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Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 18:54:40 -0500
From: Harry Veeder <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: OT: Secrets of bee flight revealed
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Rick Monteverde wrote:

> I don't believe the pressure differential is the full source of lift,
> though I don't doubt a differential exists. I've seen it work
> differently first hand.
>
> Hang a spoon against the flow of water from a faucet, bottom side
> against the flow. No magic, just water sticking to the spoon due to
> mysterious forces between objects (ok, little bit of magic). The water
> flows along the curve of the spoon, then gets hurled off at a slight
> angle, shedding a 'vortex', or at least a curve that might be considered
> part of a large partially formed vortex. The hurling at a slight angle
> causes the thrust - would be lift if the thing were horizontal instead
> of vertical. The water on the other side of the spoon provides no
> "pressure" because there isn't any water there.
> 
> I've tried this in a vacuum jar running a strong/fast pump to hold a
> good vacuum, then using a small jet of air over a wing-shaped object.
> Still works - the curved piece experiences a force into the stream.
> Although I did not measure pressure top and bottom on the small wing
> piece, the pressure in the jar was very low, and the stream coming out
> of the tube was basically at room pressure. Again, the cool part of this
> is that the stream adheres to the upper surface even as the surface
> curves away from the straight line, apparently due to the same forces
> that hold gekkos to walls. Airplanes are ZPE machines, sort of.
> 


I think a pressure differential is the primary source of the lift,
because your experiment does not result in the full weight of the wing
being lifted.

Harry 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  6 16:34:07 2005
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From: "Rick Monteverde" <rick highsurf.com>
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Harry -

I think the wedge effect is the bulk of a real wing's lift. Concurrent
with running a wedge through material, you get pressure differential.
But the cause of the differential is not from faster flow above than
below the curve, etc., it's just a wedge piling up compressible material
on its underside. Contributing also is reaction mass as I've described,
but I can't guess the proportion, and it no doubt varies with reynolds
number - but I think its usually significant. Lastly is viscous drag on
the reaction mass heading downward. I suspect that's the smallest
component on steady-state wings and may be costly in terms of power
spent, but comprises a large lift component in cyclic wings. OIW "lift"
is a composite from several sources in different proportions depending
on wing shape, angle of attack, Reynolds number, etc.

Agreed?


>I think a pressure differential is the primary source 
>of the lift, because your experiment does not result 
>in the full weight of the wing being lifted.
>
>Harry 





From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  6 19:38:59 2005
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Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 19:38:11 -0800 (PST)
From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: OT: Secrets of bee flight revealed
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On Tue, 6 Dec 2005, Merlyn wrote:

> I don't agree with Bernoulli, but pressure is still
> the key.

First see: http://amasci.com/wing/airfoil.html, and especially the FAQ at
http://amasci.com/wing/airfoil.html#faq


> As the wing pushes through the air, the leading edge
> divides the air into roughly equivalent parts flowing
> above and below.

Nope, doesn't happen.  When the pattern of air flowing above and below the
wing are the same, then the lift is zero.  For example, here's a diagram
of a tilted plate at high viscosity where the lifting force is zero:

  http://www.av8n.com//how/img48/barn20x.png

And here's a diagram of the same plate at low viscosity, where inertia
effects dominate, and the lift is non-zero:

    http://www.av8n.com//how/img48/barn20z.png

Pay close attention to the trailing edge of the tilted plates in both
diagrams.  When high viscosity damps out the inertia effects and prevents
lift (upper GIF), it damps the chordwise circulatory motion, and the flow
patterns become symmetrical above and below.  The flow at the leading edge
is about the same as the flow near the trailing edge. And at the same
time, the air leaving the trailing edge will make a tight turn, changing
direction.

But when viscosity is low, and lift is significant, and the "circulation"
appears, inertia causes the air to flow smoothly off the trailing edge.
The flow near the leading edge becomes very different than the flow near
the trailing edge.  At the same time, the flow patterns above and below
the wing become very different, and air above the wing flows much faster.

Those diagrams are from http://www.av8n.com//how/htm/airfoils.html


Here's another effect: whenever an airfoil is creating lift, it starts
separating the upper and lower parcels permanently.  Check out the blue
band behind the airfoil in the diagram below when it is tilted to produce
zero, medium, and high lift:

    http://www.av8n.com//how/img48/3v.png

"Phase lag" between upper and lower parcels is proportional to lift.



>  The thickest part of the wing lies
> in the front third of it's depth.

Explanations of lift must be able to handle flat plates, and symmetrical
thick airfoils, as well as cambered airfoils both thin and thick.  If you
start out by visualizing a thick cambered airfoil, you're going to run
into trouble.  Instead, start out by visualizing a tilted thin plate (with
no nonlinear flow detachment, of course.)  Once you can explain the tilted
flat thin wing, then you can easily explain the un-tilted cambered thin
wing... and both these explanations remain the same for thick streamlined
wings.


> As far as wingtip vortices go, I have some
> counterexamples for you.
> Airplane engineers have often over the years sought to
> reduce or even eliminate the vortices coming off the
> wingtips of a jet, many methods of this were
> accomplished, without reducing the wings lift.

No, they only redistribute the flow pattern without affecting the total
"vorticity."  Because kinetic energy varies as the square of velocity, a
flow pattern with high velocity near the "vortex core" will have greater
net KE than a flow pattern that's distributed differently.

> Also, many military planes mount missiles on the very
> tip of the wing, which would dramatically change the
> flight capability of a plane if the vortices were the
> primary source of lift.

The total flow pattern, the "vorticity," is the primary source of lift.

Thinking in terms of the "rotating disk balloons" analogy at this site:
http://amasci.com/wing/rotbal.html , the overall rotary motion of the
entire "balloons" is what's important, while any swirling of a central
core of air is unimportant (and wastes energy.)  A wing must produce a
downward-moving pair of rotating cylinders made of air.  Whether the very
center of the cylinders is spinning fast or slow is irrelevant.  It's the
downward acceleration of oncoming still air which produces lift.

Perhaps confusion arises because the word "vortex" can mean "vortex core,"
(where "vortex" applies only to the high speed spinning air near the
center of the flow pattern,) **OR** the word can apply to the entire
aircraft wake (the entire "rotating balloons" animated in my article
above.)

So by adding small winglets to the wing tips, we can eliminate
the "vortex"  (meaning the vortex core only,) while having no effect on
the "vortex"  (meaning the net rotation of the overall flow pattern.)


PS, the math of fluid flow is the same as the math for magnetic fields
surrounding a set of wires.  In fluid flow, a "vortex" is the entire
circular magnetic field surrounding an infinite straight wire, and the
"vorticity" of the overall flow is determined by the current in the wire.
By placing clumps of iron around the wire, we can sculpt the field
pattern, yet this has no effect on the overall swirling of the field: the
"vorticity."

To use current-carrying wires to produce a wing's flow pattern, we just
run a pair of parallel wires backwards off the wingtips and hook them to a
distant battery.  The two wires follow the aircraft wake, and they act as
the "vortex cores" of the wake.  A large elecric current appears spanwise
in the wing, and strong circular fields surround both the wing and
surround the wires extending back off the tips.  Those "vortex busting
winglets"  they use on some aircraft will have the effect of spreading out
the thin wires into wads of parallel copper strands, so there is no
intense field anywhere... yet the same electric current still exists in
the wing, and the same overall circular field pattern still appears
surrounding the wing.



(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb at amasci com                         http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair
Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci

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Rick Monteverde wrote:

> Harry -
> 
> I think the wedge effect is the bulk of a real wing's lift. Concurrent
> with running a wedge through material, you get pressure differential.
> But the cause of the differential is not from faster flow above than
> below the curve, etc., it's just a wedge piling up compressible material
> on its underside. Contributing also is reaction mass as I've described,
> but I can't guess the proportion, and it no doubt varies with reynolds
> number - but I think its usually significant. Lastly is viscous drag on
> the reaction mass heading downward. I suspect that's the smallest
> component on steady-state wings and may be costly in terms of power
> spent, but comprises a large lift component in cyclic wings. OIW "lift"
> is a composite from several sources in different proportions depending
> on wing shape, angle of attack, Reynolds number, etc.
> 
> Agreed?
> 


Almost.... I did the spoon-under-the-faucet experiment and it is very
persuasive.

However, could you please describe your apparatus with the vacuum pump
in more detail. I am not intending to replicate the experiment, but  I would
like to know how you detected a lifting force.

Thanks,

Harry

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Good point Steven, I'm willing to plead arrogance as a defence.  :-D
I was thinking about communism which slaughtered millions for their 
faith in the soviet union and still does in some places. But your 
correct to identify Nazism.

OrionWorks wrote:

>Recent exchanges between Mr. Rothwell and Mr. Wesley concerning the topic of "Absolute Truth" brings to mind a terrible trap I believe we all must be careful not to fall into: Subscribing to the Knowledge of the Gods.
>
>Mr. Wesley reminds us that we have recently lived in an age where "Atheism used guns to attempt to enforce its will." (Germany, WWII and Nazism, of course, comes to mind.) However, Mr. Wesley goes on to state that "Christians like me don't mind the harmless atheists." ...and I'm not going to let such an arrogant conjecture stand unchallenged.
>
>The sword that yields the Knowledge of the Gods is a double-edged one. It's easy to substitute the philosophy of "Atheism" with any god-fearing brand of religion and, going back through history, find EXACTLY the same despicable carnage performed on others.
>
>One of the best PBS TV programs I ever saw that dealt with this issue was authored by the late Jacob Browonski. I'm referring to the "The Ascent of Man" mini-series, first aired back in the 1970s. The particular installment that comes to mind is titled "Knowledge or Certainty."
>
>For reference see:
>http://ronrecord.com/Quotes/bronowski.html
>
>>From the "Knowledge or Certainty", an episode from the 1973 BBC series "The Ascent of Man", transcribed by Evan Hunt: 
>
>Quoting Jacob Bronowski:
>  
>

Snip you all have a copy. Interesting stuff.

> 
>
>While Bronowski's essay was directed in the most immediate sense at the atrocities of Nazism his words accurately reflect the misdeeds any philosophy that subscribes to the Knowledge of the Gods, whether it is based on atheism or theism, can do to mankind.
>  
>
I agree but I've seen fewer arrogant Christians than arrogant 
antichristians lately.  No one we know on vort I might point out.

>Arrogance is an equal opportunity employer.
>
>Regards,
>Steven Vincent Johnson
>www.OrionWorks.com
>
>  
>

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Have you hosted Dr. Bruce Cornet's works?

-----Original Message-----
From: OrionWorks

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com


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On Tue, 6 Dec 2005, Rick Monteverde wrote:

> I don't believe the pressure differential is the full source of lift,

There are no forces on the surface of a wing EXCEPT those of air pressure.

If you disagree...  then you need to explain in detail what these
non-air-pressure forces are.

But I already know the answer.  It's simple:  Pressure differentials
explain 100% of the lifting force, while flow-deflection (the acceleration
of fluid masses) also explains 100% of the lifting force.  These are
simply two independant ways of attacking the problem.  There is no
competition between a "Bernoulli"  viewpoint and a "Newton" viewpoint.
This is just another way of saying that the Bernoulli equation ends up
obeying Newton's laws.   Or in other words, if the water is deflected,
there MUST be a pressure differential which causes a lifting force... and
if there is a lifting force, then the water MUST be deflected.



> I've tried this in a vacuum jar running a strong/fast pump to hold a
> good vacuum, then using a small jet of air over a wing-shaped object.
> Still works - the curved piece experiences a force into the stream.
> Although I did not measure pressure top and bottom on the small wing
> piece, the pressure in the jar was very low, and the stream coming out
> of the tube was basically at room pressure. Again, the cool part of this
> is that the stream adheres to the upper surface even as the surface
> curves away from the straight line, apparently due to the same forces
> that hold gekkos to walls. Airplanes are ZPE machines, sort of.

But the incoming air will fill the vacuum chamber, with the wave
travelling at roughly the speed of sound!  In human time scale, as soon as
you open the valve and generate an air jet, significant air pressure
appears on the OTHER side of the wing.  You can't just claim that the
pressure there is insignificant, instead you have to measure it,
millisecond by millisecond.

If you can show that air can PULL on a curved wing (i.e. create an
absolute negative pressure,) that's something very interesting.


PS, I see I have to modify my original statement:  ALL FLIGHT IN FLUIDS OF
NEARLY CONSTANT DENSITY... IS CAUSED BY VORTEX-SHEDDING.  I forgot about
supersonic flight.  In supersonic flight the lifting force involves major
density changes, and there are no vortices, since a vortex can only set
itself up by propagating a flow pattern at less than the speed of sound.
Vortex-shedding applies to bird flight, insects, fish, boats, etc.
Vortex-shedding doesn't apply after the shockwaves take over.



(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
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On Tue, 6 Dec 2005, Rick Monteverde wrote:

> I think the wedge effect is the bulk of a real wing's lift.

The wedge effect is the bulk of a supersonic wing's lift.

Don't forget that subsonic fluid dynamics applies to underwater airfoils
too.  There aren't two different explanations for airfoils in air and in
water.  Propellors have the same explanation whether they're in air or
water...  and so do wings.  Wings underwater will experience large
pressure patterns, yet the density of the incompressible fluid stays the
same.  Wings in air experience large pressure patterns, yet again, the gas
is assumed to be incompressible, and the density changes are assumed to be
insignificant (and they aren't part of low-speed aerodynamics math.)

> Concurrent
> with running a wedge through material, you get pressure differential.
> But the cause of the differential is not from faster flow above than
> below the curve, etc., it's just a wedge piling up compressible material
> on its underside.

An underwater wedge doesn't pile up any compressible material.  Yet an
underwater wedge, if tilted, would still produce lift if the stall effects
didn't simply create a turbulent mess.

> OIW "lift"
> is a composite from several sources in different proportions depending
> on wing shape, angle of attack, Reynolds number, etc.
>
> Agreed?

Nope.  100% of the lift comes from Bernoulli and pressure patterns in
the fluid of constant density.  And 100% of the lift comes from Newton and
deflections of moving mass.  Only when a wing approaches the speed of
sound in fluid, does the normal explanation break down, and acoustic
pressure waves start providing significant lift.  As I understand it, a
supersonic wing is lifted by the high-pressure part of a sound wave, like
a strange form of radiation pressure.  The wing is still grabbing air and
flinging it, and experincing pressure patterns and reaction forces, but we
end up with the physics of standing wave acoustics rather than the physics
of wind.  (I've only seen one textbook which goes into the details of
supersonic lifting force.)



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William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
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leaking pen wrote:

> "Christians like me don't mind the harmless atheists."
>  
> missed that one...
>  
> really now.  pay any attention to people like Bush, who stated that 
> athiests cant be considered patriots, and are a danger to the 
> country?  hows about pat robertson, who prays for the death of 
> athiests daily, and wants a national religion imposed with penalties 
> for those who dont proscribe.

Haven't seen the quote from Bush. Remember George Bush is a new convert. 
I know people who firmily believe the statement. The context is 
everything in such a statement. I wonder if he's quoting someone?

Pat Robinson should not talk on foreign policy. I understand what he 
meant when he said what he said about Hugo Chávez.  It was stupid. 
Chavez is not a dictator but may go that way. Some in defence ask the 
question about pre-empting dictatorship. We have the technology they 
say. We should save lives by acting now. I believe they are wrong.
I'm not a fan of tele evanglists.

>  
> christians like YOU, perhaps, i dont know what kind of christian you 
> are.  christians like ME, definately.  but most christians...  no.  
> they are quite harmful and hatefull towards others.  atheist or non.

You must have run into some very sad churches. I guess I've been lucky. 
I'm a Salvo by the way.

>
>  
> On 12/6/05, *OrionWorks* <orionworks charter.net 
> <mailto:orionworks charter.net>> wrote:
>
>     Recent exchanges between Mr. Rothwell and Mr. Wesley concerning
>     the topic of "Absolute Truth" brings to mind a terrible trap I
>     believe we all must be careful not to fall into: Subscribing to
>     the Knowledge of the Gods.
>
>     Mr. Wesley reminds us that we have recently lived in an age where
>     "Atheism used guns to attempt to enforce its will." (Germany, WWII
>     and Nazism, of course, comes to mind.) However, Mr. Wesley goes on
>     to state that "Christians like me don't mind the harmless
>     atheists." ...and I'm not going to let such an arrogant conjecture
>     stand unchallenged.
>
>     The sword that yields the Knowledge of the Gods is a double-edged
>     one. It's easy to substitute the philosophy of "Atheism" with any
>     god-fearing brand of religion and, going back through history,
>     find EXACTLY the same despicable carnage performed on others.
>
>     One of the best PBS TV programs I ever saw that dealt with this
>     issue was authored by the late Jacob Browonski. I'm referring to
>     the "The Ascent of Man" mini-series, first aired back in the
>     1970s. The particular installment that comes to mind is titled
>     "Knowledge or Certainty."
>
>     For reference see:
>     http://ronrecord.com/Quotes/bronowski.html
>
>     From the "Knowledge or Certainty", an episode from the 1973 BBC
>     series "The Ascent of Man", transcribed by Evan Hunt:
>
>     Quoting Jacob Bronowski:
>
>     ----------------------------------------------------------
>     The Principle of Uncertainty is a bad name. In science--or outside
>     of it--we are not uncertain; our knowledge is merely confined,
>     within a certain tolerance. We should call it the Principle of
>     Tolerance. And I propose that name in two senses: First, in the
>     engineering sense--science has progressed, step by step, the most
>     successful enterprise in the ascent of man, because it has
>     understood that the exchange of information between man and
>     nature, and man and man, can only take place with a certain
>     tolerance.
>
>     But second, I also use the word, passionately, about the real
>     world. All knowledge--all information between human beings--can
>     only be exchanged within a play of tolerance. And that is true
>     whether the exchange is in science, or in literature, or in
>     religion, or in politics, or in *any* form of thought that aspires
>     to dogma. It's a major tragedy of my lifetime and yours that
>     scientists were refining, to the most exquisite precision, the
>     Principle of Tolerance--and turning their backs on the fact that
>     all around them, tolerance was crashing to the ground beyond repair.
>
>     The Principle of Uncertainty or, in my phrase, the Principle of
>     Tolerance, fixed once for all the realization that all knowledge
>     is limited. It is an irony of history that at the very time when
>     this was being worked out there should rise, under Hitler in
>     Germany and other tyrants elsewhere, a counter-conception: a
>     principle of monstrous certainty. When the future looks back on
>     the 1930s it will think of them as a crucial confrontation of
>     culture as I have been expounding it, the ascent of man, against
>     the throwback to the despots' belief that they have absolute
>     certainty.
>
>     It is said that science will dehumanize people and turn them into
>     numbers. That is false: tragically false. Look for yourself. This
>     is the concentration camp and crematorium at Auschwitz. [The
>     viewer sees Bronowsky walk directly into the marshlands near
>     Auschwitz where millions of Jews were cremated.] *This* is where
>     people were turned into numbers. Into this pond were flushed the
>     ashes of four million people. And that was not done by gas. It was
>     done by arrogance. It was done by dogma. It was done by ignorance.
>     When people believe that they have absolute knowledge, with no
>     test in reality--this is how they behave. This is what men do when
>     they aspire to the knowledge of gods.
>
>     Science is a very human form of knowledge. We are always at the
>     brink of the known; we always feel forward for what is to be
>     hoped. Every judgment in science stands on the edge or error, and
>     is personal. Science is a tribute to what we *can* know although
>     we are fallible. In the end, the words were said by Oliver
>     Cromwell: "I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ: Think it
>     possible you may be mistaken."
>
>     We have to cure ourselves of the itch for absolute knowledge and
>     power. We have to close the distance between the push-button order
>     and the human act. We have to *touch people*.
>     -------------------------------------------------------
>
>     While Bronowski's essay was directed in the most immediate sense
>     at the atrocities of Nazism his words accurately reflect the
>     misdeeds any philosophy that subscribes to the Knowledge of the
>     Gods, whether it is based on atheism or theism, can do to mankind.
>
>     Arrogance is an equal opportunity employer.
>
>     Regards,
>     Steven Vincent Johnson
>     www.OrionWorks.com <http://www.OrionWorks.com>
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to 
> make it possible for you to continue to write"  Voltaire 

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OrionWorks wrote:

>>From: leaking pen
>>
>>"Christians like me don't mind the harmless atheists."
>>
>>missed that one...
>>
>>really now.  pay any attention to people like Bush, who
>>stated that athiests cant be considered patriots, and
>>are a danger to the country?  hows about pat robertson,
>>who prays for the death of athiests daily, and wants a
>>national religion imposed with penalties for those who
>>dont proscribe.
>>
>>christians like YOU, perhaps, i dont know what kind of
>>christian you are. christians like ME, definately.  but
>>most christians...  no.  they are quite harmful and
>>hatefull towards others.  atheist or non.
>>    
>>
>
>Well, Mr. Leak,
>
>You still missed it. In fact I think you completely missed the entire context of my post.
>
>You imply that I personally stated "Christians like me don't mind the harmless atheists." If you have an issue with the above statement I suggest you take it up with Mr. Wesley as he was responsible for saying it, not me.
>
>I really would recommend that you read posts attributed to me more carefully before, figuratively speaking, pointing your accusing finger at me and labeling me as some "kind of [a] Christian" and lumping my alleged religious predilections with the likes of Bush Jr. and Pat Robertson.
>
>You're right about one thing, however. You don't know what kind of a "Christian" I might be, as I have never stated that I am one.
>
>I've also never stated I'm an atheist either.
>
>Please read my posts more carefully before labeling me.
>
>Regards,
>Steven Vincent Johnson
>www.OrionWorks.com
>
>  
>
Calm down everyone. I think your all making reasonable and polite 
statements. Unless I missed one.

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On Tue, 6 Dec 2005, Harry Veeder wrote:

> Almost.... I did the spoon-under-the-faucet experiment and it is very
> persuasive.

Watch out though, since water can support significant negative pressures.
Or in other words, water in vacuum does not cavitate unless seed-bubbles
are present, or unless you can produce a negative pressure.

If you have a piston in a water-filled cylinder, and you put the whole
thing in a good vacuum, you can pull on the piston and it will not move.
You have to pull hard before the water cavitates and "breaks open" to
allow the piston to move.  I've seen this effect in little glass tubes
containing water and hard vacuum.  You can create a tall water column in
the upper part of a tube which is supported only by attraction to itself
and to the glass, with hard vacuum below.  Give the column a whack, and a
tiny bubble appears and expands, and the column below the bubble falls
rapidly down the tube (and goes "clank" when it meets another water column
in the bottom of the vertical tube!)  Water really can attract.




(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb at amasci com                         http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair
Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci

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OrionWorks wrote:

>>From: leaking pen 
>>
>>Pardon, but i was responding to Mr. Wesley, as I had
>>missed the thread in which he had made the statement,
>>and was quite sure he would read THIS thread as well.  
>>I was not responding to you. Perhaps YOU should read
>>posts more carefully before assuming that something is
>>aimed at you that isn't. You seemed rather eager to take
>>the finger that wasn't pointed at you.
>>    
>>
>
>
>Greetings again, Mr. Leak,
>
>Mr. Lawrence has already spoken rather eloquently on this point. However, tell you what. I'll work on my over eager fickle finger of accusation if you try working on your addressing skills.
>  
>
That's a problem I have too, sorry folks.

>You will note that I often address whom I'm responding to very clearly, usually at the beginning of any post I make. It helps avoid potential confusions as to whom my comments are actually being addressed to.
>
>I think you may have missed the fact that I created a brand new subject thread where I quoted a statement from Mr. Wesley. In my brand new subject thread Mr. Wesley has NEVER MADE a direct contribution to it, so how can you assume that everyone would naturally understand that your comments were actually addressed to him?
>
>Quite frankly, I would have offered up a sincere public apology had you received both Mr. Wesley's post and mine, AND that both posts were made in the same subject thread. However, as you have stated, at the time of your post you had ONLY received MY follow-up post, and not Mr. Wesley's. That's because Mr. Wesley has, so far, not made any follow-up posts to my new subject thread. Again, how do you assume that everyone would naturally take your comments as directed at Mr. Wesley?
>
>I therefore feel justified in repeating: Please read my posts more carefully, and respond accordingly
>
>As Mr. Lawrence as already suggested, simply addressing whom your comments were meant for would have alleviated a lot of confusion you are directly responsible for creating.
>
>Goodness gracious me! Did I just start a flame war?
>  
>
I missed the whole show. I'm on the other side of the planet so a few 
hours of flame war goes unnoticed as I sleep. Sorry if I have caused any 
friction but I can't see that much excess heat in the war. ;-)

>Gag me with a spoon!
>
>Regards,
>Steven Vincent Johnson
>www.OrionWorks.com
>
>  
>

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Hi Harry,
The spoon effect is called the " Coanda effect".
Richard
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Harry Veeder" <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 9:43 PM
Subject: Re: OT: Secrets of bee flight revealed


> Rick Monteverde wrote:
>
>> Harry -
>>
>> I think the wedge effect is the bulk of a real wing's lift. Concurrent
>> with running a wedge through material, you get pressure differential.
>> But the cause of the differential is not from faster flow above than
>> below the curve, etc., it's just a wedge piling up compressible material
>> on its underside. Contributing also is reaction mass as I've described,
>> but I can't guess the proportion, and it no doubt varies with reynolds
>> number - but I think its usually significant. Lastly is viscous drag on
>> the reaction mass heading downward. I suspect that's the smallest
>> component on steady-state wings and may be costly in terms of power
>> spent, but comprises a large lift component in cyclic wings. OIW "lift"
>> is a composite from several sources in different proportions depending
>> on wing shape, angle of attack, Reynolds number, etc.
>>
>> Agreed?
>>
>
>
> Almost.... I did the spoon-under-the-faucet experiment and it is very
> persuasive.
>
> However, could you please describe your apparatus with the vacuum pump
> in more detail. I am not intending to replicate the experiment, but  I 
> would
> like to know how you detected a lifting force.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Harry
>
> 


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Thank's Jed I'll follow this up. Its nice to have a true scholar on the 
other side of a debate.
Jed Rothwell wrote:

> I forgot to mention that Pascal's argument is also a logical fallacy: 
> appeal to the consequences of a belief. This was defined thousands of 
> years before Pascal was born. All in all it was a sloppy analysis, and 
> Pascal -- who was a sharp thinker -- should have been ashamed of himself.
>
> I wish that people would learn basic logic in grade school. They 
> should be drilled on a dozen or so common logical fallacies that have 
> been known for thousands of years. The subject is no harder than 
> addition and subtraction, and armed with this knowledge you can avoid 
> innumerable stupid errors. The world would be a better place for it. A 
> lot of political rhetoric, for example, boils down to one fallacy or 
> another. You can take a refresher course here: 
> http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/
>
> Wesley Bruce wrote:
>
>> I have seen people cured of the incurable.
>
>
> This assertion makes no sense. If they were cured it was not 
> incurable, q.e.d. I think you mean that you have seen people cured 
> when the odds were against them. No doubt this is true, but it proves 
> nothing about faith because most people who are seriously ill and who 
> pray die anyway, and some atheists survive. Causality has long been 
> searched for but never found. Even the so-called placebo affect has 
> now been shown to be pure moonshine. Regarding the applicablity of 
> this to science, I suggest you read Francis Bacon, who wrote in "Novum 
> Organum" (1620):
>
>
> "The human understanding, when any preposition has been once laid 
> down, (either from general admission and belief, or from the pleasure 
> it affords,) forces every thing else to add fresh support and 
> confirmation; and although more cogent and abundant instances may 
> exist to the contrary, yet either does not observe or despises them, 
> or gets rid of and rejects them by some distinction, with violent and 
> injurious prejudice, rather than sacrifice the authority of its first 
> conclusions. It was well answered by him [Diagoras] who was shown in a 
> temple the votive tablets suspended by such as had escaped the peril 
> of shipwreck, and was pressed as to whether he would then recognise 
> the power of the gods, by an inquiry; "But where are the portraits of 
> those who have perished in spite of their vows?" All superstition is 
> much the same, whether it be that of astrology, dreams, omens, 
> retributive judgment, or the like; in all of which the deluded 
> believers observe events which are fulfilled, but neglect and pass 
> over their failure, though it be much more common. But this evil 
> insinuates itself still more craftily in philosophy and the sciences; 
> in which a settled maxim vitiates and governs every other 
> circumstance, though the latter be much more worthy of confidence. 
> Besides, even in the absence of that eagerness and want of thought, 
> (which we have mentioned,) it is the peculiar and perpetual error of 
> the human understanding to be more moved and excited by affirmatives 
> than by negatives, whereas it ought duly and regularly to be 
> impartial; nay, in establishing any true axiom, the negative instance 
> is the most powerful."
>
>
> - Jed
>
>

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William Beaty wrote:

> On Tue, 6 Dec 2005, Harry Veeder wrote:
> 
>> Almost.... I did the spoon-under-the-faucet experiment and it is very
>> persuasive.
> 
> Watch out though, since water can support significant negative pressures.
> Or in other words, water in vacuum does not cavitate unless seed-bubbles
> are present, or unless you can produce a negative pressure.


So by "water can support significant negative pressures" you mean the water
can be subjected to significant tensile forces.

> If you have a piston in a water-filled cylinder, and you put the whole
> thing in a good vacuum, you can pull on the piston and it will not move.
> You have to pull hard before the water cavitates and "breaks open" to
> allow the piston to move.  I've seen this effect in little glass tubes
> containing water and hard vacuum.  You can create a tall water column in
> the upper part of a tube which is supported only by attraction to itself
> and to the glass, with hard vacuum below.  Give the column a whack, and a
> tiny bubble appears and expands, and the column below the bubble falls
> rapidly down the tube (and goes "clank" when it meets another water column
> in the bottom of the vertical tube!)  Water really can attract.
> 

If the water cavitates in a vacuum I guess that means it is boiling.

Anyway, how is all this related to the spoon experiment in my kichten sink?
The faucet was turned on full so the stream flowed with bubbles and on low
so it flowed without bubbles. In both cases I felt the convex side of the
spoon "pulled" into the stream and I could see the stream leaving the tip of
the spoon at an angle.

Harry

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Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 00:51:43 -0500
From: Harry Veeder <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: OT: Secrets of bee flight revealed
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RC Macaulay wrote:

> Hi Harry,
> The spoon effect is called the " Coanda effect".



Ok. Is it named after Mr. or Ms. Coanda?

Harry  



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Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 23:18:21 -0800 (PST)
From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
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On Wed, 7 Dec 2005, Harry Veeder wrote:

> So by "water can support significant negative pressures" you mean the water
> can be subjected to significant tensile forces.

It's a liquid, so there aren't any directional tension-forces like there
would be in, say, a steel cable supporting a weight.  It's genuinely
negative pressure, and like any pressure, the force is perpendicular to
whatever surface happens to be present.  For example, if a water column in
a vacuum chamber is under negative pressure, and you introduce a tiny
vacuum pocket into the water, the pocket will expand rapidly even though
the pressure inside such a "bubble" is zero.

> > If you have a piston in a water-filled cylinder, and you put the whole
> > thing in a good vacuum, you can pull on the piston and it will not move.
> > You have to pull hard before the water cavitates and "breaks open" to
> > allow the piston to move.  I've seen this effect in little glass tubes
> > containing water and hard vacuum.  You can create a tall water column in
> > the upper part of a tube which is supported only by attraction to itself
> > and to the glass, with hard vacuum below.  Give the column a whack, and a
> > tiny bubble appears and expands, and the column below the bubble falls
> > rapidly down the tube (and goes "clank" when it meets another water column
> > in the bottom of the vertical tube!)  Water really can attract.
> >
>
> If the water cavitates in a vacuum I guess that means it is boiling.

No, since the same thing happens with any liquid, and the bubbles aren't
being inflated by gas pressure.

>
> Anyway, how is all this related to the spoon experiment in my kichten sink?

I think that cohesion forces are major cause of the bent stream.

I note that the Coanda effect occurs with air, even though air can't
support cohesion-type forces.

A clearer demonstration of pure Coanda effect would require that the spoon
be immersed underwater, and then a water jet would be directed across the
spoon's curved outer surface.  When performed with water in air, the
negative pressure causes confusion.  I know of one professional physicist
who doesn't believe in the Coanda effect *because* water jets in air are
always used to illustrate it.  (It's silly, I know.  But when you're
arguing with someone hostile who is trying to avoid being proved wrong in
public, they will seize on any small flaw in order to "prove" that your
explanation is wrong.  Using a water stream in air to demonstrate Coanda
effect is just such a flaw.)

> The faucet was turned on full so the stream flowed with bubbles and on low
> so it flowed without bubbles. In both cases I felt the convex side of the
> spoon "pulled" into the stream and I could see the stream leaving the tip of
> the spoon at an angle.

But in air, if the water stream passes close to the spoon without
touching, the water stream won't deflect itself to make contact with the
spoon. Yet under water, the fluid stream *will* deflect itself to curve
around the spoon.  Coanda effect involves this deflection, it involves
"entrainment," where the moving jet drags any nearby fluid along.

In other words, when the spoon is immersed in air, we have to use an air
jet to unmistakably demonstrate Coanda effect with no cohesion forces
present.



(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb at amasci com                         http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair
Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  6 23:26:15 2005
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From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
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Subject: Re: OT: Secrets of bee flight revealed
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On Wed, 7 Dec 2005, Harry Veeder wrote:

> Ok. Is it named after Mr. or Ms. Coanda?

Henri M. Coanda, here's my favorite links:

http://www.allstar.fiu.edu/aero/coanda.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coanda

http://jef.raskincenter.org/published/coanda_effect.html

http://home.dmv.com/~tbastian/russ.htm

There was also an old article in SciAm, where they had a disk-shape
styrofoam UFO coanda craft where the air came from the center top, shot
horizontally radially outward along the humped disk surface, then blew
downwards all around the edge.


(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb at amasci com                         http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair
Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci

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At 08:16 pm 06/12/2005 -0800, Bill Beaty wrote:

>On Tue, 6 Dec 2005, Harry Veeder wrote:
>
>> Almost.... I did the spoon-under-the-faucet 
>> experiment and it is very persuasive.

> Watch out though, since water can support 
> significant negative pressures.
> Or in other words, water in vacuum does 
> not cavitate unless seed-bubbles are 
> present, or unless you can produce a 
> negative pressure.

> If you have a piston in a water-filled 
> cylinder, and you put the whole thing 
> in a good vacuum, you can pull on the 
> piston and it will not move. You have 
> to pull hard before the water cavitates 
> and "breaks open" to allow the piston 
> to move.  I've seen this effect in 
> little glass tubes containing water 
> and hard vacuum.  You can create a 
> tall water column in the upper part 
> of a tube which is supported only by 
> attraction to itself and to the glass, 
> with hard vacuum below.  Give the column 
> a whack, and a tiny bubble appears and 
> expands, and the column below the bubble 
> falls rapidly down the tube (and goes 
> "clank" when it meets another water column
> in the bottom of the vertical tube!)  
> Water really can attract.


As good an explanation of reduced Beta-atmosphere 
pressure as one could wish for - from an arbitrary 
external data pressure of zero, that is.    8-)
(cf. 0 degrees C.)
 
Frank Grimer

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> From: hohlrauml6d
> 
> Have you hosted Dr. Bruce Cornet's works?

Very astute observation.

Yes, I did back in the 1990s - and for several years I might add.

I met Dr. Cornet at a convention where I attended some of his lectures and slide shows. Back then I had just created my orionworks.com web site, where my art and that of my wife continues to reside today. 

Back then, I noticed that I had additional web space available for other projects and decided that maybe including Dr. Cornet's controversial research into anomalous phenomenon might be a worthy cause.  It turned out to be a delight to work with Dr. Cornet. It was all his work, I might add. All I did was scan and format a prodigious amount of data and place it out on my web site. Dr. Cornet was also extremely gracious for allowing me to host his works - and that always helps too.

As the years went by and as my own web site continued to evolve it became clear to me that it was time that Dr. Cornet acquire his own web site rather than continue to be an umbrella site under mine. I needed to consolidate my personal projects, and I think Dr. Cornet needed to do the same as well. We worked out the logistics of the transition. 

I haven't corresponded with Dr. Cornet in a number of years. I enjoyed the time when I had hosted his data. To be honest, I don't know what to make of his research even to this day. I hope Dr. Cornet continues to be doing well.

FWIW: Back in the 1990s my web site also hosted a few publications from another UFO researcher, Donald Schmitt, co-author of several definitive ROSWELL Crash site books. I continue to keep in touch with Mr. Schmitt since he lives within driving distance of me.

My experience of working with Cornet and Schmitt was that several of these UFO researchers seem to occasionally live colorful lives. Many are also all too human like the rest of us and occasionally make unwise decisions in their personal lives that can adversely affect their public persona. I noted that there often seemed to be competition between rival researchers. While there can occasionally exist successful collaborative efforts (such as several Schmitt & Randall publications on the Roswell crash) all too often these working relationships seemed to eventually break down (sometimes spectacularly) - and betrayal and bitter animosity resulted poisoning the atmosphere for all to see - and take advantage of. This can and has been used in attempts to discredit their UFO research  - guilt by association. Meanwhile, much of the public doesn't seem curious and/or smart enough to look past these human fragilities that we are all susceptible to and simply focus on the impressive am!
 ount of UFO data they have compiled.

This personal analysis of mine is directed more at Schmitt than at Cornet.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

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From: Wesley Bruce 

...

> I missed the whole show. I'm on the other side of the planet
> so a few hours of flame war goes unnoticed as I sleep. Sorry
> if I have caused any friction but I can't see that much
> excess heat in the war. ;-)

You've managed to keep your composure despite my underhanded attempts to put 
you on the defensive.

I like a man who is true to his school. 

You're an honorable man, Mr. Wesley.

And now, back to those fascinating flapping bee wings.

Steve

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

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Not really.  Just one of the flashbacks they always promised us. <g>

You might be happy to know that Bruce is back doing his first love, 
paleoentomology.  Here's a very interesting work of his:

http://www.sunstar-solutions.com/sunstar/Why02/why.htm

He did a brief stint with Robert Bigelow's NIDS when Bob bought that 
ranch which allegedly had a stargate on premise.  Bob dumped NIDS 
funding shortly after Bruce moved out there.  AAMOF, this also nailed 
Eric Davis who is now employed by (drumroll) EarthTech!  Bob's building 
space hotels now. <g>

For those who do not know Dr. Coronet, here is some of the material of 
which we speak:

http://www.sunstar-solutions.com/AOP/HomePage/power_point_presentations.h
tm

AAFIK, Bruce never (publicly) decided if he was dealing with aliens or 
black ops.

I never knew Don Schmitt; however, I do Kevin.  BTW, it's Dr. Randall 
now; and, if his side of the story is true, I agree about Don.

-----Original Message-----
From: OrionWorks <orionworks charter.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Cc: orionworks charter.net
Sent: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 9:39:32 -0600
Subject: Dr. Cornet

> From: hohlrauml6d
>
> Have you hosted Dr. Bruce Cornet's works?

Very astute observation.
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From: hohlrauml6d

> Not really.  Just one of the flashbacks they always promised us. <g>
>
> You might be happy to know that Bruce is back doing his first love, 
> paleoentomology.  Here's a very interesting work of his:
>
> http://www.sunstar-solutions.com/sunstar/Why02/why.htm

That is indeed delightful news. I suspect Dr. Cornet may get better notoriety (or at least better respect) in his detailed knowledge of paleoentomology. If memory serves me correctly I believe had uncovered evidence that is considered revolutionary, at least within the field of paleoentomology. I think it was related to the discovery of fossilized pollen that had always been considered not possible in those pre-historic times. Not my area of expertise! ;-)

Dr. Cornet has had a rough go at it at times in his life, both in public and personal. I hope this turns out to be a good turn of events for him.

> He did a brief stint with Robert Bigelow's NIDS when Bob bought
> that ranch which allegedly had a stargate on premise.  Bob 
> dumped NIDS funding shortly after Bruce moved out there.  
> AAMOF, this also nailed Eric Davis who is now employed by 
> (drumroll) EarthTech!  Bob's building space hotels now. <g>
> 
> For those who do not know Dr. Coronet, here is some of the material
>  of which we speak:
> 
> http://www.sunstar-solutions.com/AOP/HomePage/power_point_presentations.htm

I've included an abbreviated "tiny" URL to the above web site as the data assembled IS worth looking at.

http://tinyurl.com/dzaft

> AAFIK, Bruce never (publicly) decided if he was dealing
> with aliens or black ops.
> 
> I never knew Don Schmitt; however, I do Kevin.  BTW,
> it's Dr. Randall now; and, if his side of the story is
> true, I agree about Don.

I noticed Kevin got is degree too. Congratulations are indeed in order.

I've met Kevin as well, but I'm much more acquainted with Mr. Schmitt.

I noticed Kevin recently published a work of fiction, presumably based on the Roswell legend. (Regarding the word *fiction* there's a bit of an inside joke there. ;-) )

Meanwhile, it would appear that Mr. Schmitt as been able to redeem his public UFO researcher reputation in the last couple of years. You may have recently seen him on the SciFi channel as one of the consultants to the Roswell Dig program hosted by Bryant Gumbel.

I wish both Kevin and Don: Good hunting.

Life goes on, warts and all. 

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

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Subject: Re: OT: Secrets of bee flight revealed
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William Beaty wrote:

> On Tue, 6 Dec 2005, Rick Monteverde wrote:
> 
>> I don't believe the pressure differential is the full source of lift,
> 
> There are no forces on the surface of a wing EXCEPT those of air pressure.
> 
> If you disagree...  then you need to explain in detail what these
> non-air-pressure forces are.
> 
> But I already know the answer.  It's simple:  Pressure differentials
> explain 100% of the lifting force, while flow-deflection (the acceleration
> of fluid masses) also explains 100% of the lifting force.  These are
> simply two independant ways of attacking the problem.  There is no
> competition between a "Bernoulli"  viewpoint and a "Newton" viewpoint.
> This is just another way of saying that the Bernoulli equation ends up
> obeying Newton's laws.   Or in other words, if the water is deflected,
> there MUST be a pressure differential which causes a lifting force... and
> if there is a lifting force, then the water MUST be deflected.

I don't think the two explanations are equivalent.
During level flight the Bernoulli explanation DOES NOT predict that
the fluid leaving the wing tip will be directed downwards.

Harry

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Thanks for the tinyurl which sometimes results in funny codes:  
"dzaft"?  <g>

If you're still into that sort of thing, Dr. Randall has been having a 
go at Dr. Michael "Exopolitics" Salla lately.

http://www.kevinrandle.blogspot.com/

-----Original Message-----
From: OrionWorks

<snip>

I've included an abbreviated "tiny" URL to the above web site as the 
data
assembled IS worth looking at.

http://tinyurl.com/dzaft

<snip>

I wish both Kevin and Don: Good hunting.
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Subject: RE: OT: Secrets of bee flight revealed
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Harry -

I did the vacuum experiment years ago so details are a little hazy, but
basically it was a jar with a small diameter (1/8" I.D. I think)tube
sticking through the lid. Inside the jar was a small airfoil section
made of modelling clay, suspended vertically with the tube pointing at
the front/top surface. Basically like the spoon/faucet setup, but with
an air jet instead of a faucet. Vacuum pump is high capacity relative to
the small air inlet capacity, so when allowing air to flow in through
the tube, the vacuum still stays fairly high - so all the significant
air action is just the flow hitting the top side of the foil. The foil
pulls into the airflow, just like the spoon in a water flow. And I'm
pretty sure, mitigated by the absence of any real measurement, that the
pressure on the top of the foil was mostly higher than on the bottom.

- Rick

-----Original Message-----
From: Harry Veeder [mailto:eo200 freenet.carleton.ca] 
Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 5:43 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: OT: Secrets of bee flight revealed


Rick Monteverde wrote:

> Harry -
> 
> I think the wedge effect is the bulk of a real wing's lift. Concurrent

> with running a wedge through material, you get pressure differential. 
> But the cause of the differential is not from faster flow above than 
> below the curve, etc., it's just a wedge piling up compressible 
> material on its underside. Contributing also is reaction mass as I've 
> described, but I can't guess the proportion, and it no doubt varies 
> with reynolds number - but I think its usually significant. Lastly is 
> viscous drag on the reaction mass heading downward. I suspect that's 
> the smallest component on steady-state wings and may be costly in 
> terms of power spent, but comprises a large lift component in cyclic 
> wings. OIW "lift" is a composite from several sources in different 
> proportions depending on wing shape, angle of attack, Reynolds number,

> etc.
> 
> Agreed?
> 


Almost.... I did the spoon-under-the-faucet experiment and it is very
persuasive.

However, could you please describe your apparatus with the vacuum pump
in more detail. I am not intending to replicate the experiment, but  I
would like to know how you detected a lifting force.

Thanks,

Harry





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Bill -

 >There are no forces on the surface of a wing EXCEPT 
 >those of air pressure.
 >
 >If you disagree...  then you need to explain in detail 
 >what these non-air-pressure forces are.
 >
 >But I already know the answer.  It's simple:  Pressure 
 >differentials explain 100% of the lifting force, while 
 >flow-deflection (the acceleration of fluid masses) also 
 >explains 100% of the lifting force.  These are simply 
 >two independant ways of attacking the problem.  

Yeah, that's what I was trying to say, more or less, while answering
that notion that the air travels further & faster over the top, etc.
*causing* the differential. I don't agree with that version.

>But the incoming air will fill the vacuum chamber, with 
>the wave travelling at roughly the speed of sound!  
>In human time scale, as soon as you open the valve 
>and generate an air jet, significant air pressure 
>appears on the OTHER side of the wing.  You can't 
>just claim that the pressure there is insignificant, 
>instead you have to measure it, millisecond by millisecond.

The pump is large compared to the small jar volume, and once that dense
air in the jet disperses, which it does very quickly, density and
pressure get pretty low pretty fast before much of it swirls around
underneath the foil. To see it and its scale is convincing. Seeing my
writing about it isn't.

>If you can show that air can PULL on a curved wing 
>(i.e. create an absolute negative pressure,) 
>that's something very interesting.

Yup. It's been shown too, but not by me. Google should bring it up with
words like van der Waals, airfoil, boundary layer, etc. Why else would a
flow stick against a surface and follow it down around a curve like
that? 

I never finished construction on it, but I started a rig where the
airfoil sat on a membrane with good vacuum under the membrane in a
separate chamnber from the air above the foil. Air jet would hit the top
of the foil as before, but the whole bottom side would be against the
membrane. Pump would keep the air above at as low a pressure as possible
while the jet shot across the foil surface. I figure the foil would
still rise into the airflow, pulling up on the membrane with the
certain-to-be-lower pressure below it. 

Maybe simpler to use a split chamber with water instead of air?

- Rick




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From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
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Subject: Paper published
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-------------------------------1134006688
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Paper published,  "A reconciliation of Quantum physics and Special  
Relativity"
 
_http://www.wbabin.net/stats.htm_ (http://www.wbabin.net/stats.htm)  
 
enjoy
 
Frank Znidarsic

-------------------------------1134006688
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3DUS-ASCII">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1479" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY id=3Drole_body style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY:=20=
Arial"=20
bottomMargin=3D7 leftMargin=3D7 topMargin=3D7 rightMargin=3D7><FONT id=3Drol=
e_document=20
face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D2>
<DIV>Paper published,&nbsp; "A reconciliation of Quantum physics and Special=
=20
Relativity"</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A=20
href=3D"http://www.wbabin.net/stats.htm">http://www.wbabin.net/stats.htm</A>=
=20
</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>enjoy</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Frank Znidarsic</DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>

-------------------------------1134006688--

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Viktor Schauberger might agree with you.  You might also consider Mr. 
Grimer's Beta-atm list on Yahoo.

Beta-atmosphere_group yahoogroups.com

"Inside out.  Outside in.  Perpetual change."

BTW, it *was* the lattice ions.  <g>

-----Original Message-----
From: Rick Monteverde

Yeah, that's what I was trying to say, more or less, while answering
that notion that the air travels further & faster over the top, etc.
*causing* the differential. I don't agree with that version.
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec  8 04:24:14 2005
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From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Big Brother
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 12:16:05 -0000 
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Vorts,
You probably already knew this. 

http://earth.google.com/

I can see my house, my car, my neighbour's car. And this is the free
version...

Just think, real-time, terahertz radiation (see through walls), crosslink
with GPS, mobile phones, bank cards and we have a 24-7 surveillance society.

Just think what they are not telling us...
Remi.
.......................................
Website
http://luna.bton.ac.uk/~roc1
.......................................

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec  8 09:28:19 2005
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From: "Jones Beene" <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <7.0.0.16.2.20051208103617.039137c0 mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Notes on ICCF12 from T. J. Dolan
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 09:05:05 -0800
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> Andrei Lipson and George Miley (University of
> Illinois) showed that the walls of high-power tokamaks like ITER 
> could be damaged by low energy nuclear reactions induced by 
> implanted deuterium and tritium.



Isn't that an ironic hoot...?

ITER ($10 billion) will possibly fail because of irresponsible 
disregard of LENR reactions... which BTW would likely be in 
commercial use (LENR) by now - had a tenth of that enormous cost 
for hot fusion - been substituted over the last decade. 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec  8 10:27:39 2005
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From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: RE: Big Brother
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 17:37:31 -0000 
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Helva of a system. You think the number of hits it must be getting. The
database resolves names in all manners, street names, place names,
postcodes. Then there is the database for the pictures.

What I'm waiting for, not, is the direct mailing resulting from this. Wanna
swimming pool, patio, extension, new roof, new car!!

I guess we could leave rude messages on tops of cars to show we've woken up
to this.
Remi.

-----Original Message-----
From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On
Behalf Of John Steck
Sent: 08 December 2005 17:16
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: RE: Big Brother

The only salvation is that it's a photo quilt from airplane reconnaissance
that lags behind a few years between updates.  My neighborhood pictures are
from 2001-2002.  Some states the resolution is not high enough to
differentiate roads.  It seems to be population density driven.

Overall a pretty kick-butt program to teach geography and discuss world
events with my kids.  They love just exploring exotic locations.

-john


-----Original Message-----
From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk [mailto:R.O.Cornwall@brighton.ac.uk] 
Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 6:16 AM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Big Brother


Vorts,
You probably already knew this. 

http://earth.google.com/

I can see my house, my car, my neighbour's car. And this is the free
version...

Just think, real-time, terahertz radiation (see through walls), crosslink
with GPS, mobile phones, bank cards and we have a 24-7 surveillance society.

Just think what they are not telling us...
Remi.
.......................................
Website
http://luna.bton.ac.uk/~roc1 .......................................

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec  8 10:28:07 2005
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Subject: RE: Big Brother
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 11:16:09 -0600
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The only salvation is that it's a photo quilt from airplane reconnaissance
that lags behind a few years between updates.  My neighborhood pictures are
from 2001-2002.  Some states the resolution is not high enough to
differentiate roads.  It seems to be population density driven.

Overall a pretty kick-butt program to teach geography and discuss world
events with my kids.  They love just exploring exotic locations.

-john


-----Original Message-----
From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk [mailto:R.O.Cornwall@brighton.ac.uk] 
Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 6:16 AM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Big Brother


Vorts,
You probably already knew this. 

http://earth.google.com/

I can see my house, my car, my neighbour's car. And this is the free
version...

Just think, real-time, terahertz radiation (see through walls), crosslink
with GPS, mobile phones, bank cards and we have a 24-7 surveillance society.

Just think what they are not telling us...
Remi.
.......................................
Website
http://luna.bton.ac.uk/~roc1 .......................................


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec  8 10:28:29 2005
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From: OrionWorks <orionworks charter.net>
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To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Subject: Re: Notes on ICCF12 from T. J. Dolan
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 10:12:23 -0600
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This post is primarily directed to both Jed, Steven Krivit,

Jed, in the past you have lamented the fact that you feared CF research may be dieing a slow death, particularly due to what you have perceived is a lack of necessary infusion of young scientists into this risky & controversial field. IOW, at present dabbling in CF may be considered, professionally speaking, too risky a step for most career oriented scientists to seriously consider.

Never the less, the latest posts (and supplied links) by Jed and Steve seem to indicate a number of interesting results derived from ICCF12. 

Seems to me that progress, albeit perhaps too slow for most of us to appreciate, continues.

Jed, Do you continue to remain pessimistic?

Steve, what's you thoughts on this?

What about the commercial development component?

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec  8 10:28:55 2005
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Notes from the 12th International Conference on 
Condensed Matter Nuclear Sciences

November 27 – December 2, 2005, Yokohama

T. J. Dolan


The following brief summary refers to only some 
of the 60 papers presented at the conference.


Experiments


Yasuhiro Iwamura (Mitsubishi Heavy Industries) 
presented more data on transmutations of Cs to 
Pm, Ba to Sm, and Sr to Mo, using a variety of 
diagnostic techniques, including a detailed 
surface mapping using a synchrotron microbeam 
(100 x 100 micrometers). They found that the 
transmutations occurred in small concentrated 
sites on the surface. Afterward I asked him what 
labs have reproduced some of his transmutations, 
and he said Osaka University, Shizuoka 
University, Francesco Celani (Italy), and NRL (in progress).

A. Kitamura (Kobe University) coated films on the 
vacuum side of the Pd foil (Iwamura coated the 
gas side) and reported transmutation of Sr into Mo.

Irina Savvatimova (“Luch” Institute, Moscow) 
reported transmutation of Ba into Sm.

A. El-Boher (Energetics Technologies, Israel) 
used "superwave" modulation of the current in 
electrolysis cells to increase yield. He achieved 
600% excess heat for 24 hours, and 150% for 134 
hours.  Irving Dardik (a physician) developed the 
superwave technique with regard to curing human 
illnesses, and it is found to have applications in several fields.

Vittorio Violante (ENEA, Italy) used a HeNe laser 
to enhance excess power generation during electrochemical loading.

Yoshiaki Arata (Osaka University) observed 
intense heat generation during ingress of 
deuterium into a thin cylinder containing Pd nanoparticles.

Alexander Karabut ("Luch" laboratory, Russia) 
observed excess heat generation and 
transmutations during deuterium glow discharges, 
but not during Kr or Xe discharges. Using spark 
mass spectrometry, SIMS, and secondary neutral 
mass spectrometry they identified the emergence 
of many impurities, including abnormal isotope 
ratios for several elements. They also observed 
emission of gamma rays and x-rays.

Andrei Lipson and George Miley (Lebedev 
Institute, Moscow, and University of Illinois) 
reported emissions of energetic protons and alpha 
particles during controlled exothermic deuterium 
desorption from the surface of a Pd/PdO:Dx 
heterostructure.  Using CR-39 detectors they 
found 1-3 MeV proton tracks and 11-16 MeV alpha 
tracks, with a yield about 0.005 alphas/cm2-s, 
reproducible during about 20 experiments. They 
also reported data indicating superconductivity in Pd hydride and deuteride.

Francesco Celani (Frascati, Italy) told how they 
coated Pd wires with Pd-silicate to produce 
fractal nanostructures and enhance deuterium loading.

Vladimir Vysotskii (Kiev) and Alla Kornilova 
(Moscow) reported that Mn-55 was transmuted into 
Fe-57 in a solution of MnSO4 in heavy water plus 
nutrients and microbes, and the yield after 30 
days was about 10-6. In light water no Fe-57 was 
produced. They have published a book on this topic.

Experiments at Iwate University were not yet 
successful. During the discussion I pointed out 
that oxides of calcium, strontium, and barium are 
used in commercial vacuum tube cathodes, and that 
great care must be taken in vacuum tube 
manufacture to avoid impurities like oil, which 
can poison their thermal emissivity.  Experiments 
that attempt to emulate the transmutation data of 
Iwamura may fail if they do not bake out the 
sample in a very clean high vacuum system.

Mike McKubre (SRI) presented new data to clarify 
the relationship between the electrical 
resistance ratio R/Ro of Pd and the fractional 
loading of deuterium near N(d)/N(Pd) ~ 1.

Jean-Francois Fauvarque (Laboratoire 
d’Electrochemis Industrielle, France) reported 
reproducible heat generation during electrolysis 
with a tungsten cathode.  At 350 V the output 
energy was 1.3 to 1.4 times the input energy.

Tadahiko Mizuno (Hokkaido University) described 
an electrolysis experiment in which the cathode 
overheated and exploded. After 300 J electrical 
input, the output heat plus explosion energy 
totaled about 0.24 MJ.  Analysis of the tungsten 
cathode revealed deposits of Ca, S, and other 
elements, but no residual radioactivity.

There is a new collaboration between Italy and 
Japan (Takahashi, Celani, Iwamura) to try to 
transmute radioactive isotopes such as Cs-137 and 
Sr-90 into stable isotopes, which could have 
application for remediation of radioactive 
wastes.  I. Goryachev (Kurchatov Institute) is 
also studying the possibility of waste remediation.

Jean-Paul Biberian (Marseille, France) heated a 
clean Pd foil to 500 C, cooled and sanded it, 
heated again to 500 C, and coated it with Zn, Pb, 
or Li.  When the coated foil was immersed in 
deuterium gas it loaded quickly and generated excess heat.

Steve Krivit (New Energy Times) and Vladimir 
Vysotskii (Kiev) told of experiments by A. 
Koldomasov (Russia), Hyunik Yang (Hy-En Research 
Co.) and others involving flow of high-pressure 
machine oil or water through a small orifice (~ 1 
mm). There are experiments Korea and in Edmonton, 
Canada, and theoretical work in Russia.  Krivitt 
showed a videotape of the Canadian device in 
action. In boron-doped oil at 30 atm the color is 
tawny; at over 40 atm, it is white; at over 60 
atm it is clear, with a blue plasma jet 
downstream of the orifice. At 70-80 atm there is 
a bright blue beam 6 mm in diameter, and at over 
90 atm a green glow appears upstream of the 
orifice. Hard x-rays were observed from the 
luminous region. The researchers claim that 
excess heat is generated from fusion reactions 
(possibly protons plus boron-11) during collapse 
of cavitation bubbles, and they detected He-4 
emission lines from the cavitating fluid.

Andrei Lipson and George Miley (University of 
Illinois) showed that the walls of high-power 
tokamaks like ITER could be damaged by low energy 
nuclear reactions induced by implanted deuterium and tritium.



Theory


F. A. Gareev (Dubna, Russia) stated that he 
derived the Bohr hydrogen atom conditions from a 
Hamiltonian without reference to Bohr conditions 
or quantum mechanics.  He said that quantum 
theory should be reformulated for open systems, 
and that atoms are self-organizing systems in 
which standing waves are synchronized by resonances.

John Fisher (USA) suggested that under some 
conditions in lattices polyneutron clusters may 
form and stimulate nuclear transmutations.

Akito Takahashi (Osaka University) noted that 150 
theoretical models have been proposed to explain 
low energy nuclear reactions. He hypothesizes 
that inside a crystal lattice four deuterons plus 
four electrons can coalesce to form 
a  “tetrahedral symmetric condensate”, which can 
interact with the host atoms’ nuclei, and he 
estimated the corresponding reaction rates.

Xing-Zhong Li (Tsinghua University, Beijing) 
discussed calculations of internal reflection and 
multiple scattering of deuteron waves.  The 
symmetry of the lattice planes may help sustain 
the deuteron wave nature against lattice 
vibrations. Even if the absorption in a single 
layer is very low, the total absorption from 
multiple layers may be significant.

Scott Chubb (NRL) and Talbot Chubb pointed out 
that in finite chunks of lattice the end boundary 
conditions invalidate some of the ideas that hold 
for infinitely long media.  Bloch deuterons may 
occur along the interface between Pd and CaO. The 
salt provides a lattice and the metal provides 
free electrons to neutralize the deuteron charge. 
Communication occurs between deuterons in 
octahedral and tetrahedral sites of the Pd. 
Tunneling depends on crystal size. Tiny 6 nm 
crystals with tunneling times in microseconds 
either cannot provide enough momentum to initiate 
dd fusion or they conduct ions so rapidly that 
collisions occur. Medium sized 60 nm crystals 
load rapidly and create heat.  Crystals larger 
than 60 microns have tunneling times longer than a month, which is too slow.

Yeong Kim (Purdue) presented a new theory that 
uses a Lorentzian broadening of the 
Maxwell-Boltzmann distribution that was 
formulated by in the 1930s.  With this broadening 
phenomenon he predicts much higher nuclear reaction rates in solids.

Using a Hamada-Johnson potential Peter Hagelstein 
and I. Chaudhary (MIT) have computed 400 matrix 
elements for deuteron interactions with phonons. 
They will soon be able to predict various 
reaction rates to test their theory of phonon 
interactions stimulating nuclear reactions.

William Collis reported that the new 
International Society for Condensed Matter 
Nuclear Sciences (ISCMNS) has over 170 members. 
Its motto is “Ardet nec consumitur”, which means, 
“It burns, but is not consumed”.


Summary


In his summary of the ICCF-12 conference Prof. 
Xing-Zhong Li said that CMNS has three “legs”:
·        excess heat generation
·        nuclear reaction products & transmutations
·        good reproducibility.
Many experiments have achieved the first two 
legs, but reproducibility has only been 
demonstrated in a few experiments, such as those 
of Iwamura.  Prof. Arata is building a larger 
device (3 x 30 cm) to demonstrate reliable higher power operation.


There are new companies investing in CMNS 
(D2Fusion and Energetics Technologies) and new 
international research collaborations of 
SRI-Israel-Italy and of Italy-Japan. The 
double-structure work of Arata demonstrates clear 
evidence of heat generation during deuterium flow 
in Pd, and the work of Iwamura provides 
additional detailed measurements of 
transmutations. Several theorists are making good 
progress towards understanding the phenomena, 
such as the deuteron wave theory of Chubb.  The 
US Department of Energy review of CMNS was 
favorable, and DOE is now willing to consider 
research proposals. The Journal of Fusion Energy 
(edited by Steve Dean) is willing to accept 
papers dealing with CMNS. Li stated that three of 
the suggestions made by Dolan at ICCF-9 (Beijing, 
2002) are now being fulfilled:

·        a new technical society (the 
International Society for Condensed Matter Nuclear Sciences),
·        an award for great achievements (the Preparata Award)
·        a new journal (formation in progress).
The next conference ICCF-13 will probably be held 
in 2007 in Russia or in the USA.
  



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Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 11:07:10 -0800 (PST)
From: Merlyn <merlyn_3k yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: OT: Secrets of bee flight revealed
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Ok, time to wade through and clarify...
(will try to snip tyhe unimportant)

--- William Beaty <billb eskimo.com> wrote:

> On Tue, 6 Dec 2005, Merlyn wrote:
> 
> > I don't agree with Bernoulli, but pressure is
> still
> > the key.
> 
> First see: http://amasci.com/wing/airfoil.html, and
> especially the FAQ at
> http://amasci.com/wing/airfoil.html#faq
> 

Which is basically what I was saying, but explained
much better.

> 
> > As the wing pushes through the air, the leading
> edge
> > divides the air into roughly equivalent parts
> flowing
> > above and below.
> 
> Nope, doesn't happen.  When the pattern of air
> flowing above and below the
> wing are the same, then the lift is zero.  For
> example, here's a diagram
> of a tilted plate at high viscosity where the
> lifting force is zero:
> 
>   http://www.av8n.com//how/img48/barn20x.png
> 
> And here's a diagram of the same plate at low
> viscosity, where inertia
> effects dominate, and the lift is non-zero:
> 
>     http://www.av8n.com//how/img48/barn20z.png
> 


I meant roughly equivalent mass, I said nothing about
equivalent air flow patterns.

<snip explanation of diagrams>

> 
> Here's another effect: whenever an airfoil is
> creating lift, it starts
> separating the upper and lower parcels permanently. 
> Check out the blue
> band behind the airfoil in the diagram below when it
> is tilted to produce
> zero, medium, and high lift:
> 
>     http://www.av8n.com//how/img48/3v.png
> 
> "Phase lag" between upper and lower parcels is
> proportional to lift.
> 
> 
> 
> >  The thickest part of the wing lies
> > in the front third of it's depth.
> 
> Explanations of lift must be able to handle flat
> plates, and symmetrical
> thick airfoils, as well as cambered airfoils both
> thin and thick.  If you
> start out by visualizing a thick cambered airfoil,
> you're going to run
> into trouble.  Instead, start out by visualizing a
> tilted thin plate (with
> no nonlinear flow detachment, of course.)  Once you
> can explain the tilted
> flat thin wing, then you can easily explain the
> un-tilted cambered thin
> wing... and both these explanations remain the same
> for thick streamlined
> wings.
> 


OK, I was simplifying a typical airfoil section.  The
pressure dfferential explanation (which we both
promote) still explains all lift.

> 
> > As far as wingtip vortices go, I have some
> > counterexamples for you.
> > Airplane engineers have often over the years
> sought to
> > reduce or even eliminate the vortices coming off
> the
> > wingtips of a jet, many methods of this were
> > accomplished, without reducing the wings lift.
> 
> No, they only redistribute the flow pattern without
> affecting the total
> "vorticity."  Because kinetic energy varies as the
> square of velocity, a
> flow pattern with high velocity near the "vortex
> core" will have greater
> net KE than a flow pattern that's distributed
> differently.
> 
> > Also, many military planes mount missiles on the
> very
> > tip of the wing, which would dramatically change
> the
> > flight capability of a plane if the vortices were
> the
> > primary source of lift.
> 
> The total flow pattern, the "vorticity," is the
> primary source of lift.
> 
> Thinking in terms of the "rotating disk balloons"
> analogy at this site:
> http://amasci.com/wing/rotbal.html , the overall
> rotary motion of the
> entire "balloons" is what's important, while any
> swirling of a central
> core of air is unimportant (and wastes energy.)  A
> wing must produce a
> downward-moving pair of rotating cylinders made of
> air.  Whether the very
> center of the cylinders is spinning fast or slow is
> irrelevant.  It's the
> downward acceleration of oncoming still air which
> produces lift.
> 
> Perhaps confusion arises because the word "vortex"
> can mean "vortex core,"
> (where "vortex" applies only to the high speed
> spinning air near the
> center of the flow pattern,) **OR** the word can
> apply to the entire
> aircraft wake (the entire "rotating balloons"
> animated in my article
> above.)
> 
> So by adding small winglets to the wing tips, we can
> eliminate
> the "vortex"  (meaning the vortex core only,) while
> having no effect on
> the "vortex"  (meaning the net rotation of the
> overall flow pattern.)
> 


Ah, see here is where you had me confused, because
typically a "wingtip vortex" is considered to be the
vortex "core".

<snip electrical analogy>


> 
> (((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) )
> )))))))))))))))))))
> William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE
> HOBBYIST website
> billb at amasci com                        
> http://amasci.com
> 
=== message truncated ===

BTW Bill, don't they test wing cross sections in wind
tunnels with wings that extend from wall to wall,
preventing the formation of the larger vortex wake
pattern?

Also, it would be interesting actually look at a
conservation of momentum study for level flight,
because there should be NO net vertical movement of
air.  The lift on the plane is (wholly or partially)
caused by the air which the wing deflects downwards do
to impact with the lower surface and Coanda effect
'stiction' on the upper surface.  The air moving
downwards must be balanced by something moving
upwards, which would be more air (and cause your
vortex wake).  I suggest that the vortex is a result,
not a cause.


Merlyn
Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist

__________________________________________________
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From: ThomasClark123 aol.com
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Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 14:30:49 EST
Subject: Biefeld-Brown Effect by Carl Frederick Krafft (Electrogravitation & Antigravity 
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I have listed a few quotes below  explaining the basic principles of 
electrogravitatoin, antigravity, and how flying saucers may work, as quoted from the 
publication entitled the Biefeld-Brown Effect by Carl Frederick Krafft 
(Electrogravitation & Antigravity Principles).

"This phenonmon consists of the tendency of a charged electric condenser to 
move in the direction of the positive pole, despite the principle of action and 
reaction.

In an electric condenser, just as in a hydrogen atom, there is a direct flow 
of the ether from the positive charge to the negative charge.  Since the ether 
is incompressible, its streamlines cannot come to abrupt ends within the 
charges.  The positive charge must therefore take the ether in from the 
surroundings.  This will necessarily diminish the external ether pressure on the 
positive side and increase it on the negative side. (Biefeld-Brown Effect by Carl 
Frederick Krafft  Pg 1)"

"If we adopt the modern view that the force of gravity is due to a pressure 
gradient in the ether, then such a difference of ether pressure on the two 
sides of a condenser should force the entire condenser in the direction of the 
side that carries the positive charge, exactly as has been observed 
experimentally.  A charged condenser should therefore weigh more when its positive side 
faced down than when it faces up.  (Reprinted from Round Robin, Vol. XII No. 3, 
Sept-Oct 1957) (Biefeld-Brown Effect by Carl Frederick Krafft   (Pg 1))"

"Electrogravitation effects and coupling as discovered by Townsend Brown do 
not obey the known principles of  electromagnetism.  (Biefeld-Brown Effect by 
Carl Frederick Krafft  Pg 2)"

"For each electromagnetic phenomenon there exists an electrogravitation 
analogue. 

The triangular relationship between Electricity, Magnetism, and Gravity

Electricity<C Capacitance Condenser Biefield Brown Effect>Gravitation
Electricity<L Inductance>Magnatism
Magnatism<R Resistance W Spin Effect> Gravitation   (Biefeld-Brown Effect by 
Carl Frederick Krafft  (Pg 2))"

Electricity<C Capacitance Condenser Biefield Brown Effect>Gravitation

"The antigravity effect of vertical thrust is demonstrated by balancing a 
condenser on a beam balance and then charging it. After charging it, if the 
positive pole is pointed upward, the condenser moves up.  If the charge is reversed 
and the positive pole pointed downward, the condenser thrusts down.
1. The separation of the plates of the condenser, the closer the plates the 
greater the effect
2. The ability of the material between the plates to store electrical energy 
in the form of elastic stress.  A measure of
 this ability is called the K of the material.  The higher the K, the 
Biefield Brown Effect. 
3. The area of the plates the greater area giving the greater effect
4. The voltage difference between the plates, more voltage more effect
5. The mass of the material between the plates the greater the mass the 
greater the effect.  (Biefeld-Brown Effect by Carl Frederick Krafft  (Pg 3))"

"Electrogravatic Force C M (E A/d) or MC where c = capacitance in Farads.

The Earth creates and is surrounded with a gravitational field which 
approaches zero as we go far into space.  This field presses objects and people to the 
Earth's surface; hence it presses a saucer object to the Earth.  However 
through the utilization of the Biefield-Brown Effect, the flying saucer can 
generate an electrogravitational field of its own which modifies the Earth's field.  
This field acts like a wave with the negative pole at the top of the wave and 
the positive pole at the bottom, the saucer travels like a surfboard on the 
incline of the wave that is kept continually moving by the saucer's 
electrogravatic generator. (Biefeld-Brown Effect by Carl Frederick Krafft   (Pg 4))"

"Since the orientation of the field can be controlled the saucer can thus 
travel on its own continuously generated wave in any desired angle or direction 
of flight.  Since the saucer always moves toward its positive pole, the control 
of the saucer is accomplished by varying the orientation of the positive 
charge.  Control is therefore gained by switching charges rather than by control 
surfaces.  The method of controlling the flight of the saucer is illustrated by 
the following simple diagrams showing the charge variations necessary to 
accomplish all directions of flight:

- saucer +    + saucer -      +            -
 forward ->    <- reverse   saucer   saucer
                                        -            +
                                       UP ^    Down

       +                 -                  +                 +
- Saucer +    - saucer+       +saucer-       + saucer -
      -                  +                   -                 +
forward up    forward down   reverse up    reverse down


Since the saucer is traveling on the incline of a continuing moving wave 
which it generates to modify the Earth's gravitational field no mechanical 
propulsion is necessary. 

The saucers edge would contain a number of conductor segments, and the saucer 
would turn in any direction simply by shifting the positive and negative 
charges to appropriate positions along its edge.  The vertical thrush would be 
regulated by varying the positive charge on top of the saucer, the amount of 
thrust being regulated by the amount of charge generated.

Townsend Brown determined that ideal shape for maximum vertical thrust is a 
saucer form gradually rising and rounding to a point at the middle top of the 
saucer. (Biefeld-Brown Effect by Carl Frederick Krafft  Pg 4). "

"Electrostatic energy sufficient to produce a Mach 3 fighter is possible with 
megavolt energies and a k (the ability of a condenser to hold its charge) of 
over 10,000.
k figures of 6,000 have been obtained fro some ceramic materials and there 
are prospects of 30,000.( Electrogravatic Systems Reports On A New Propulsion 
Methodology Edited by Thomas Valone, Integrity Research Institute, Pg. 26.)"


"Townsend Brown, working in his laboratory, building models and trying 
endless variations of size, shape, and design of his charged condensers, made a 
flying saucer which flew around a maypole, before flying saucers became a 
newspaper topic ..."

Townsend Brown's saucers requires a highly charged leading edge, the positive 
pole.  But such a charged pole produces an electrical corona.  ... A full 
scale ship operating on this principle would be expected to produce a spectacular 
corona effect visible for many miles....

The outline and shape of Brown's saucers, were the result of 
electrogravitational considerations, not the results of wind tunnel tests of aerodynamic 
designs, for they  move not on the lift of air, but on the lift of a modified 
gravitational field....

Brown turned his attention to improved ways of generating high voltages, the 
most promising method involved the use of a flame jet to convey negative 
charges astern. ..

But says Brown, the occupants of one of his saucers would feel no stress at 
all, no matter how sharp the turn or how great the acceleration.  This is 
because the ship and the occupants and the load are all responding equally to the 
wavelike distortion of the local gravitational field. (Biefeld-Brown Effect by 
Carl Frederick Krafft Pg 7 to 8 )"

W.C. Wright's theory of gravity claims that gravity is a magnetic repulsion 
or a push between all heavenly bodies. Wright's equations:

mps = 188/kn sqrt(r)     r= (188/kn mps)^2   r = megamiles from orbiting 
body, mps = miles per second in orbit, kn key number, 188 = basic number.  The key 
number for the planets that orbit the sun is 1,06, for the satellites that 
orbit mars is 2,350, for the satellites that orbit Jupiter is 34.2, for the 
satellites that orbit Saturn is 62.25, for the satellites that orbit Uranus is  
158, for the satellites that orbit Neptune is 147, for the moon that orbits 
earth is 618)

Existing Flying saucer ships:

Cordray Research Denver Colorodo, US Pilotless ducted fan flying saucer 
Shadow aircraft uses a rotary piston engine can be built for 50,000 each plus 50
0,000 for bases.

Coanda's Lentituclar Aerodyne is a perfect disc achieving lift by the 
creation of a perfect vacuum around the edge of the wing.


Baron Von Volsung, http://www.rhfweb.com/baron, Email: 
http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html
President Thomas D. Clark, Email: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html, 
Personal Web Page: http://www.rhfweb.com/personal
New Age Production's Inc., http://www.rhfweb.com/newage
Star Haven Community Services, at http://www.rhfweb.com/sh
Radiation Health Foundation Trust at http://www.rhfweb.com/

Making a difference one person at a time
Get informed. Inform others.

-------------------------------1134070249
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML><HEAD>
<META charset=3DUS-ASCII http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; cha=
rset=3DUS-ASCII">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2769" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
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<DIV>I have listed a few quotes below&nbsp; explaining the basic principles=20=
of electrogravitatoin, antigravity, and how flying saucers may work, as quot=
ed from the publication entitled the <STRONG>Biefeld-Brown Effect by Carl Fr=
ederick Krafft</STRONG> (Electrogravitation &amp; Antigravity Principles).</=
DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>"This phenonmon consists of the tendency of a charged electric condense=
r to move in the direction of the positive pole, despite the principle of ac=
tion and reaction.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>In an electric condenser, just as in a hydrogen atom, there is a direct=
 flow of the ether from the positive charge to the negative charge.&nbsp; Si=
nce the ether is incompressible, its streamlines cannot come to abrupt ends=20=
within the charges.&nbsp; The positive charge must therefore take the ether=20=
in from the surroundings.&nbsp; This will necessarily diminish the external=20=
ether pressure on the positive side and increase it on the negative side. <S=
TRONG>(Biefeld-Brown Effect by Carl Frederick Krafft&nbsp; Pg 1)"</STRONG></=
DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>"If we adopt the modern view that the force of gravity is due to a pres=
sure gradient in the ether, then such a difference of ether pressure on the=20=
two sides of a condenser should force the entire condenser in the direction=20=
of the side that carries the positive charge, exactly as has been observed e=
xperimentally.&nbsp; A charged condenser should therefore weigh more when it=
s positive side faced down than when it faces up.&nbsp; (<STRONG>Reprinted f=
rom Round Robin, Vol. XII No. 3, Sept-Oct 1957) (Biefeld-Brown Effect by Car=
l Frederick Krafft&nbsp;&nbsp; (Pg 1))"</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG></STRONG>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>"Electrogravitation effects and coupling as discovered by Townsend Brow=
n do not obey the known principles of&nbsp; electromagnetism.&nbsp; <STRONG>=
(Biefeld-Brown Effect by Carl Frederick Krafft&nbsp; Pg 2)"</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>"For each electromagnetic phenomenon there exists an electrogravitation=
 analogue. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><STRONG>The triangular relationship between Electricity, Magnetism, and=
 Gravity</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Electricity&lt;C Capacitance Condenser Biefield Brown Effect&gt;Gravita=
tion<BR>Electricity&lt;L Inductance&gt;Magnatism<BR>Magnatism&lt;R Resistanc=
e W Spin Effect&gt; Gravitation&nbsp;&nbsp; (<STRONG>Biefeld-Brown Effect by=
 Carl Frederick Krafft&nbsp; (Pg 2))"</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><STRONG>Electricity&lt;C Capacitance Condenser Biefield Brown Effect&gt=
;Gravitation</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>"The antigravity effect of vertical thrust is demonstrated by balancing=
 a condenser on a beam balance and then charging it. After charging it, if t=
he positive pole is pointed upward, the condenser moves up.&nbsp; If the cha=
rge is reversed and the positive pole pointed downward, the condenser thrust=
s down.<BR>1. The separation of the plates of the condenser, the closer the=20=
plates the greater the effect<BR>2. The ability of the material between the=20=
plates to store electrical energy in the form of elastic stress.&nbsp; A mea=
sure of<BR>&nbsp;this ability is called the K of the material.&nbsp; The hig=
her the K, the Biefield Brown Effect. <BR>3. The area of the plates the grea=
ter area giving the greater effect<BR>4. The voltage difference between the=20=
plates, more voltage more effect<BR>5. The mass of the material between the=20=
plates the greater the mass the greater the effect.&nbsp; <STRONG>(Biefeld-B=
rown Effect by Carl Frederick Krafft&nbsp; (Pg 3))"</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>"Electrogravatic Force C M (E A/d) or MC where c =3D capacitance in Far=
ads.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The Earth creates and is surrounded with a gravitational field which ap=
proaches zero as we go far into space.&nbsp; This field presses objects and=20=
people to the Earth's surface; hence it presses a saucer object to the Earth=
.&nbsp; However through the utilization of the Biefield-Brown Effect, the fl=
ying saucer can generate an electrogravitational field of its own which modi=
fies the Earth's field.&nbsp; This field acts like a wave with the negative=20=
pole at the top of the wave and the positive pole at the bottom, the saucer=20=
travels like a surfboard on the incline of the wave that is kept continually=
 moving by the saucer's electrogravatic generator. <STRONG>(Biefeld-Brown Ef=
fect by Carl Frederick Krafft&nbsp;&nbsp; (Pg 4))"</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>"Since the orientation of the field can be controlled the saucer can th=
us travel on its own continuously generated wave in any desired angle or dir=
ection of flight.&nbsp; Since the saucer always moves toward its positive po=
le, the control of the saucer is accomplished by varying the orientation of=20=
the positive charge.&nbsp; Control is therefore gained by switching charges=20=
rather than by control surfaces.&nbsp; The method of controlling the flight=20=
of the saucer is illustrated by the following simple diagrams showing the ch=
arge variations necessary to accomplish all directions of flight:</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>- saucer +&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; + saucer -&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; +=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;-</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;forward -&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;- reverse&nbsp;&nbsp; saucer&=
nbsp; &nbsp;saucer<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;-&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; +<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;UP ^&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Down</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; +&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;-&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&n=
bsp; &nbsp;+&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; +<BR>- Saucer +&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - saucer+=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;+saucer-&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20=
&nbsp;+ saucer -<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p; +&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; -&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; +<BR>forward up&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp; forward down&nbsp; &nbsp;reverse up&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;reverse do=
wn</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><BR>Since the saucer is traveling on the incline of a continuing moving=
 wave which it generates to modify the Earth's gravitational field no mechan=
ical propulsion is necessary. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The saucers edge would contain a number of conductor segments, and the=20=
saucer would turn in any direction simply by shifting the positive and negat=
ive charges to appropriate positions along its edge.&nbsp; The vertical thru=
sh would be regulated by varying the positive charge on top of the saucer, t=
he amount of thrust being regulated by the amount of charge generated.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Townsend Brown determined that ideal shape for maximum vertical thrust=20=
is a saucer form gradually rising and rounding to a point at the middle top=20=
of the saucer. (<STRONG>Biefeld-Brown Effect by Carl Frederick Krafft&nbsp;=20=
Pg 4). "</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>"Electrostatic energy sufficient to produce a Mach 3 fighter is possibl=
e with megavolt energies and a k (the ability of a condenser to hold its cha=
rge) of over 10,000.<BR>k figures of 6,000 have been obtained fro some ceram=
ic materials and there are prospects of 30,000.(<STRONG> Electrogravatic Sys=
tems Reports On A New Propulsion Methodology Edited by Thomas Valone, Integr=
ity Research Institute, Pg. 26.)"</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><BR>"Townsend Brown, working in his laboratory, building models and try=
ing endless variations of size, shape, and design of his charged condensers,=
 made a flying saucer which flew around a maypole, before flying saucers bec=
ame a newspaper topic ..."</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Townsend Brown's saucers requires a highly charged leading edge, the po=
sitive pole.&nbsp; But such a charged pole produces an electrical corona.&nb=
sp; ... A full scale ship operating on this principle would be expected to p=
roduce a spectacular corona effect visible for many miles....</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The outline and shape of Brown's saucers, were the result of electrogra=
vitational considerations, not the results of wind tunnel tests of aerodynam=
ic designs, for they&nbsp; move not on the lift of air, but on the lift of a=
 modified gravitational field....</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Brown turned his attention to improved ways of generating high voltages=
, the most promising method involved the use of a flame jet to convey negati=
ve charges astern. ..</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>But says Brown, the occupants of one of his saucers would feel no stres=
s at all, no matter how sharp the turn or how great the acceleration.&nbsp;=20=
This is because the ship and the occupants and the load are all responding e=
qually to the wavelike distortion of the local gravitational field. (<STRONG=
>Biefeld-Brown Effect by Carl Frederick Krafft Pg 7 to 8 )"</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>W.C. Wright's theory of gravity&nbsp;claims that gravity is&nbsp;a magn=
etic repulsion or a push between all heavenly bodies. Wright's equations:</D=
IV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>mps =3D 188/kn sqrt(r)&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; r=3D (188/kn mps)^2&nbsp=
;&nbsp; r =3D megamiles from orbiting body, mps =3D miles per second in orbi=
t, kn key number, 188 =3D basic number.&nbsp; The key number for the planets=
 that orbit the sun is 1,06, for the satellites that orbit mars is 2,350, fo=
r the satellites that orbit Jupiter is 34.2, for the satellites that orbit S=
aturn is 62.25, for the satellites that orbit Uranus is&nbsp; 158, for the s=
atellites that orbit Neptune is 147, for the moon that orbits earth is 618)<=
/DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><STRONG>Existing Flying saucer ships:</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><BR>Cordray Research Denver Colorodo, US Pilotless ducted fan flying sa=
ucer Shadow aircraft uses a rotary piston engine can be built for 50,000 eac=
h plus 500,000 for bases.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Coanda's Lentituclar Aerodyne is a perfect disc achieving lift by the c=
reation of a perfect vacuum around the edge of the wing.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Baron Von Volsung, <A title=3Dhttp://www.rhfweb.com/baron href=3D"http:=
//www.rhfweb.com/baron">http://www.rhfweb.com/baron</A>, Email: <A title=3Dh=
ttp://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html href=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.=
html">http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html</A><BR>President Thomas D. Clark,=
 Email: <A title=3Dhttp://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html href=3D"http://www.r=
hfweb.com/emailform.html">http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html</A>, <BR>Pers=
onal Web Page: <A title=3Dhttp://www.rhfweb.com/personal href=3D"http://www.=
rhfweb.com/personal">http://www.rhfweb.com/personal</A><BR>New Age Productio=
n's Inc., <A title=3Dhttp://www.rhfweb.com/newage href=3D"http://www.rhfweb.=
com/newage">http://www.rhfweb.com/newage</A><BR>Star Haven Community Service=
s, at <A title=3Dhttp://www.rhfweb.com/sh href=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/sh">=
http://www.rhfweb.com/sh</A><BR>Radiation Health Foundation Trust at <A titl=
e=3Dhttp://www.rhfweb.com/ href=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/">http://www.rhfweb=
.com/</A><BR><BR><B>Making a difference one person at a time<BR>Get informed=
. Inform others</B>.</DIV></BODY></HTML>

-------------------------------1134070249--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec  8 14:00:39 2005
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From: "John Steck" <johnsteck tetrahelix.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Big Brother
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 15:58:43 -0600
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ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US!

-----Original Message-----
From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk [mailto:R.O.Cornwall@brighton.ac.uk] 
Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 11:38 AM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: RE: Big Brother


Helva of a system. You think the number of hits it must be getting. The
database resolves names in all manners, street names, place names,
postcodes. Then there is the database for the pictures.

What I'm waiting for, not, is the direct mailing resulting from this. Wanna
swimming pool, patio, extension, new roof, new car!!

I guess we could leave rude messages on tops of cars to show we've woken up
to this. Remi.

-----Original Message-----
From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On
Behalf Of John Steck
Sent: 08 December 2005 17:16
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: RE: Big Brother

The only salvation is that it's a photo quilt from airplane reconnaissance
that lags behind a few years between updates.  My neighborhood pictures are
from 2001-2002.  Some states the resolution is not high enough to
differentiate roads.  It seems to be population density driven.

Overall a pretty kick-butt program to teach geography and discuss world
events with my kids.  They love just exploring exotic locations.

-john


-----Original Message-----
From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk [mailto:R.O.Cornwall@brighton.ac.uk] 
Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 6:16 AM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Big Brother


Vorts,
You probably already knew this. 

http://earth.google.com/

I can see my house, my car, my neighbour's car. And this is the free
version...

Just think, real-time, terahertz radiation (see through walls), crosslink
with GPS, mobile phones, bank cards and we have a 24-7 surveillance society.

Just think what they are not telling us...
Remi.
.......................................
Website
http://luna.bton.ac.uk/~roc1 .......................................


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec  8 15:39:40 2005
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Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 17:42:16 -0500
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Progress at Energetics Technologies
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Here is the latest from Dardik et al. These are PowerPoint slides. 
Unfortunately, the file is 6 MB and I cannot seem to squeeze it down 
any smaller. See:

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/DardikIprogressin.pdf

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec  8 16:04:06 2005
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Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 16:00:25 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Steven Krivit <steven newenergytimes.com>
Subject: Re: Notes on ICCF12 from T. J. Dolan
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Hi Steven,

I'm quite optimistic. Though the best work appears to be happening under 
the radar. The smart people, unlike those who promote their companies and 
technologies through Web sites which I will not name, recognize the need to 
obtain irrefutable results and are working towards that end. They are 
painfully aware of both the paradigm-breaking nature of this science, and 
also aware of the threat to incumbent energy enterprises.

More mainstream journals are starting to accept cf papers. Sooner or later 
a mainstream journal is going to do a major story on LENR transmutation. 
It's inevitable. The nice thing about the transmutation results, as pointed 
out by Iwamura, is that unlike heat, the evidence is not transient. So it's 
easy to validate.

I asked Dave Nagel's perspective relative to the promise of cold fusion 
this last week. He replied with a quote from some other military leader 
whose name I don't remember, who said. "I'm very good at predicting what 
things will happen in the future. But I'm not so good at predicting when 
they will happen."

I'm going to release something now that partially illuminates where some of 
my optimism comes from. I will eventually name the source, but not now. He 
said, just about a year ago,
"Have no doubt. We are going to win this war, after losing every battle." 
It's a most interesting and stunning quote, certainly. For now though, I 
have nothing more to say about it. The cake is still baking.

 From my view, the public really doesn't give a damn about the injustices 
to good science, to good scientists and to research which will inevitably 
provide for a benefit for all humanity. The general public, predominately, 
wants results -- but does not want to pay for them. Fortunately, a few 
wise, wealthy people have better vision than most of the public and are 
positioning themselves strategically in support of this research, and in 
doing so, will grace mankind with the tools and energy to continue 
civilization.

Once that happens, it will be up to the social scientists, policy-makers 
and NGOs to see that the new source of energy is used wisely and 
appropriately.

s


At 08:12 AM 12/8/2005, you wrote:
>This post is primarily directed to both Jed, Steven Krivit,
>
>Jed, in the past you have lamented the fact that you feared CF research 
>may be dieing a slow death, particularly due to what you have perceived is 
>a lack of necessary infusion of young scientists into this risky & 
>controversial field. IOW, at present dabbling in CF may be considered, 
>professionally speaking, too risky a step for most career oriented 
>scientists to seriously consider.
>
>Never the less, the latest posts (and supplied links) by Jed and Steve 
>seem to indicate a number of interesting results derived from ICCF12.
>
>Seems to me that progress, albeit perhaps too slow for most of us to 
>appreciate, continues.
>
>Jed, Do you continue to remain pessimistic?
>
>Steve, what's you thoughts on this?
>
>What about the commercial development component?
>
>Regards,
>Steven Vincent Johnson
>www.OrionWorks.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec  8 18:33:46 2005
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Yes, I think the owls are dying.

Maybe it's bird flu. <g>

http://www.sonomacountyfreepress.com/bohos/bohofact.html

"The rooster says 'cock-a-doodle-do'.  The nymph says 'any ole cock'l 
do'."

http://imdb.com/title/tt0102802/

Interesting word: 'illuminates'.


-----Original Message-----
From: Steven Krivit

  I'm going to release something now that partially illuminates where 
some of my optimism comes from. I will eventually name the source, but 
not now. He said, just about a year ago, 
"Have no doubt. We are going to win this war, after losing every 
battle." It's a most interesting and stunning quote, certainly. For now 
though, I have nothing more to say about it. The cake is still baking. 
___________________________________________________
Try the New Netscape Mail Today!
Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List
http://mail.netscape.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec  8 21:52:03 2005
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Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 18:44:07 +0000
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I happened to stumble across this.

=========================================
  escribe.com 
will be ready soon!     

eScribe will be online again. Scott is 
changing out every component in the 
server to find the one that is defective. 
I'm the last remaining volunteer on the 
eScribe project, so it's taken a long 
time to find extra time to work on this. 
11/23/05 
=========================================

I presume it means that the escribe Vortex-L
archive will soon be back on line. I do hope
so cos the "vortex-l Mail Archive" is more 
difficult to search.

Frank Grimer 


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Old habits are hard to break.  :-)

With the preponderance of virus and allergen species (and Carbon Monoxide) etc.,
out to do us in, I think using a counterflow air-to-air heat exchanger to  raise the air temperature 
to 750 degrees F in a chamber either electrically or hydrogen combustion heated would do in
any virus or allergen etc., that can get through a HEPA filter. 

For instance inlet air at 300 CFM 14.7 PSIA 65 F raised to 750 F without counterflow
would require 0.25*21.43*685 = 3,670 BTU per minute or 64.5 Kilowatts.

OTOH, counterflow heat exchange with a 20 degree F exit temperature:

0.25*21.43*20 = 107 BTU per minute or 1.88 Kilowatts.

The exhaust of a vacuum cleaner would be a good place to start.

Fred
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<HTML><HEAD>
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<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=2>Old habits are hard to break.&nbsp; :-)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>With the preponderance of virus and allergen species (and Carbon Monoxide) etc.,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>out to do us in, I think using a </FONT><FONT size=2>counterflow air-to-air heat exchanger to&nbsp;&nbsp;raise the air temperature </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>to 750 degrees F </FONT><FONT size=2>in a chamber either electrically or hydrogen combustion heated would do in</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>any virus or allergen etc., that can get through a HEPA filter. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>For instance inlet air at 300 CFM 14.7 PSIA 65 F raised to 750 F without counterflow</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>would require 0.25*21.43*685 = 3,670 BTU per minute or 64.5 Kilowatts.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>OTOH, counterflow heat exchange with a 20 degree F exit temperature:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>0.25*21.43*20 = 107 BTU per minute or 1.88 Kilowatts</FONT><FONT size=2>.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>The exhaust of a vacuum cleaner would be a good place to start.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Fred</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8--


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec  9 02:27:56 2005
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From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk
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Subject: RE: Big Brother
Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 10:26:50 -0000 
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J.
This is some in-joke from a few weeks ago about rightwing extremists and
victimised minorities, if I remember?

F...! There are some really stupid people on the planet. It easy to forget
how dumb the masses are when one is dealing with uni. educated people most
of the day (and they are dumb too).

Anyway I'm sure the site caters for the voyeur in all of us.
R.

-----Original Message-----
From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On
Behalf Of John Steck
Sent: 08 December 2005 21:59
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: RE: Big Brother

ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US!

-----Original Message-----
From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk [mailto:R.O.Cornwall@brighton.ac.uk] 
Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 11:38 AM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: RE: Big Brother


Helva of a system. You think the number of hits it must be getting. The
database resolves names in all manners, street names, place names,
postcodes. Then there is the database for the pictures.

What I'm waiting for, not, is the direct mailing resulting from this. Wanna
swimming pool, patio, extension, new roof, new car!!

I guess we could leave rude messages on tops of cars to show we've woken up
to this. Remi.

-----Original Message-----
From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On
Behalf Of John Steck
Sent: 08 December 2005 17:16
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: RE: Big Brother

The only salvation is that it's a photo quilt from airplane reconnaissance
that lags behind a few years between updates.  My neighborhood pictures are
from 2001-2002.  Some states the resolution is not high enough to
differentiate roads.  It seems to be population density driven.

Overall a pretty kick-butt program to teach geography and discuss world
events with my kids.  They love just exploring exotic locations.

-john


-----Original Message-----
From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk [mailto:R.O.Cornwall@brighton.ac.uk] 
Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 6:16 AM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Big Brother


Vorts,
You probably already knew this. 

http://earth.google.com/

I can see my house, my car, my neighbour's car. And this is the free
version...

Just think, real-time, terahertz radiation (see through walls), crosslink
with GPS, mobile phones, bank cards and we have a 24-7 surveillance society.

Just think what they are not telling us...
Remi.
.......................................
Website
http://luna.bton.ac.uk/~roc1 .......................................

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For lack of a word. Laptop finger problem.

OTOH, counterflow heat exchange with a 20 degree F (above inlet) exit temperature rise:

0.25*21.43*20 = 107 BTU per minute or 1.88 Kilowatts.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Frederick Sparber 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Sent: 12/9/2005 2:46:15 AM 
Subject: Re: High Temperature Air Sterilization Etc.


Old habits are hard to break.  :-)

With the preponderance of virus and allergen species (and Carbon Monoxide) etc.,
out to do us in, I think using a counterflow air-to-air heat exchanger to  raise the air temperature 
to 750 degrees F in a chamber either electrically or hydrogen combustion heated would do in
any virus or allergen etc., that can get through a HEPA filter. 

For instance inlet air at 300 CFM 14.7 PSIA 65 F raised to 750 F without counterflow
would require 0.25*21.43*685 = 3,670 BTU per minute or 64.5 Kilowatts.

OTOH, counterflow heat exchange with a 20 degree F exit temperature rise:

0.25*21.43*20 = 107 BTU per minute or 1.88 Kilowatts.

The exhaust of a vacuum cleaner would be a good place to start.

Fred
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8
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<HTML style="FONT-SIZE: x-small; FONT-FAMILY: MS Sans Serif"><HEAD>
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2769" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>For lack of a word. Laptop finger problem.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>OTOH, counterflow heat exchange with a 20 degree F (above inlet) exit temperature rise:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>0.25*21.43*20 = 107 BTU per minute or 1.88 Kilowatts</FONT><FONT size=2>.</FONT></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=fjsparber earthlink.net href="mailto:fjsparber@earthlink.net">Frederick Sparber</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To: </B><A title=vortex-l eskimo.com href="mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com">vortex-l@eskimo.com</A></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> 12/9/2005 2:46:15 AM </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: High Temperature Air Sterilization Etc.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><FONT size=2>
<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=2>Old habits are hard to break.&nbsp; :-)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>With the preponderance of virus and allergen species (and Carbon Monoxide) etc.,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>out to do us in, I think using a </FONT><FONT size=2>counterflow air-to-air heat exchanger to&nbsp;&nbsp;raise the air temperature </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>to 750 degrees F </FONT><FONT size=2>in a chamber either electrically or hydrogen combustion heated would do in</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>any virus or allergen etc., that can get through a HEPA filter. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>For instance inlet air at 300 CFM 14.7 PSIA 65 F raised to 750 F without counterflow</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>would require 0.25*21.43*685 = 3,670 BTU per minute or 64.5 Kilowatts.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>OTOH, counterflow heat exchange with a 20 degree F exit temperature rise:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>0.25*21.43*20 = 107 BTU per minute or 1.88 Kilowatts</FONT><FONT size=2>.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>The exhaust of a vacuum cleaner would be a good place to start.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Fred</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8--


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec  9 03:43:54 2005
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Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 12:42:50 +0100
From: David Jonsson <davidjonssonsweden gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: Secrets of bee flight revealed
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This is not very new news. To any motion to which a wave can be
associated there can be a combination of incoming and outgoing waves.
In science the incoming waves are cancelled with the motive that there
aren't any sources to supply this incoming wave. If the bee can not
produce enough energy to cause an outgoing wave or outgoing energy it
simply creates a motion which allows incoming waves and thus incoming
energy.

I learnt this very recently in a course in fluid mechanics. See
Brekhovskikh, Goncharov: Mechanics of Continua and Wave Dynamics,
equation 12.5. It is actually a wave term which occurs in
electrodynamics and signal processing as well and in those subjects it
is also too often ignored.

In some cases the effect of incoming waves and energy is wanted. I
think of electrical energy extraction from sea waves. This idea is not
very different from extracting energy from the ZPE which is like an
electrodynamic sea of a lot of waves of different frequencies and
directions.

So the challenge for anyone investigating this is to look from which
energy the bee is receiving. Another observation I can add is that
some smaller flying insects the size of mosquitoes like to stand still
in the air for longer periods of time but only in certain vertical air
pillars regularly spaced apart. Be attentive and look carefully and
you will observe this yourself. I conclude from here that the energy
these insects are using exists in these pillars. This pillars might
coincide with Curry, Hartman or Leylines. I have also heard from
Preston Nichols that radio reception is disturbed in these pillars.

David

On 11/30/05, Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com> wrote:
> Conceptually that means more stuff to push off of. <???>
>
> These kinds of wings create vortices of air which feature increased mass and resistance to downward/rearward movement than a similar surface would encounter while slicing through the medium in a more laminar mode. Probably get increased stability too.
>

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Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 14:52:58 +0100
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Hi all

How does this thing work?
http://www.hydrodynamics.com/product_pics.htm

Does it excite water in some way?

David

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Intentional cavitation using a spinning perforated disk.  Some believe 
the collapsing cavitation bubbles can cause fusion reactions.  Others 
think they might tap vacuum energy (ZPE).  This device has been 
demonstrated to have a COP of approximately 1.2 or better.

Known here as the Griggs Hydrosonic Pump:

http://www.alternativescience.com/over-unity.htm

-----Original Message-----
From: David Jonsson

Hi all

How does this thing work?
http://www.hydrodynamics.com/product_pics.htm

Does it excite water in some way?

David


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Although they do not seem to mention it on the site,
this is the evolution of the *Griggs* cavitation pump
AFAIK.

They apparently dropped the OU claims and found other
uses for it.





--- David Jonsson <davidjonssonsweden gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hi all
> 
> How does this thing work?
> http://www.hydrodynamics.com/product_pics.htm
> 
> Does it excite water in some way?
> 
> David
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec  9 08:39:03 2005
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Notes on ICCF12 from T. J. Dolan
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OrionWorks wrote:

>This post is primarily directed to both Jed, Steven Krivit,
>
>Jed, in the past you have lamented the fact that you feared CF 
>research may be dieing a slow death, particularly due to what you 
>have perceived is a lack of necessary infusion of young scientists 
>into this risky & controversial field. IOW, at present dabbling in 
>CF may be considered, professionally speaking, too risky a step for 
>most career oriented scientists to seriously consider.
>
>Never the less, the latest posts (and supplied links) by Jed and 
>Steve seem to indicate a number of interesting results derived from ICCF12.

There has been progress and there are promising new results. On the 
other hand, I did not see any young people at the conference. All the 
presenters have attended previous conferences and presented similar 
results. Over the past year, several more researchers retired or 
died. The field still seems be drifting inexorably toward extinction, 
simply because people grow old and die. From the beginning, cold 
fusion supporters have been older than those who attack the field.

There has been no change in the political situation. Journals such as 
Nature and Scientific American still attack cold fusion as viciously 
as ever. The 2004 Department of Energy review had no effect. As far 
as I know cold fusion is still too risky for a career oriented 
scientist, or indeed any any scientist or businessman who is not 
retired or independently wealthy. Perhaps something is happening 
behind the scenes, but I would not know about that. Frankly, all of 
the secret research projects that have come to light so far have been 
unimpressive. I do not think this research can thrive in secret, but 
only in an open academic environment in which results are shared and 
experiments subject to open criticism and peer review.

- Jed


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Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 06:57:08 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  hohlrauml6d netscape.net's message of Fri, 09 Dec
2005 11:23:20 -0500:
Hi,
[snip]
>Intentional cavitation using a spinning perforated disk.  Some believe 
>the collapsing cavitation bubbles can cause fusion reactions.  Others 
>think they might tap vacuum energy (ZPE).  

My favorite is hydrino formation based on O++ Mills catalyst
created by the high temperatures present in the bubbles.
Temperatures  that are high enough to ionize atoms, but not high
enough for fusion.
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

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Vortexians;

The exchange between Jed Rothwell and Bruce Wesley prompted me to 
point out that no matter how persuasive you think your argument is, 
the other person may dismiss it. Jed dismissed my argument about 
spontaneous biogenesis too.


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Vortexians;

I assume that the halos are caused by the decay of the radioneuclide 
in the zirconium crystal. I assume that there are multiple decays. Is 
the intensity of the halo determined by the number of decays? Is 
there some way to determine the number of decay events by it's 
intensity?


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Dec. 09, 2005

> [Original Message]
 From: What's New <whatsnew BOBPARK.ORG>
 To: <BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW LISTSERV.UMD.EDU>
 Date: 12/9/2005 9:15:21 PM
 Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday December 9, 2005

 WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 9 Dec 05   Washington, DC

 1. REPORT CARDS: A LOT OF CHILDREN ARE GOING TO BE LEFT BEHIND. 
 On Wednesday, the Thomas B. Fordham Institute released a report
 on science standards for K-12 set by 49 states, "The State of
 State Science Standards."  Iowa, which doesn't set standards for
 any subject, was left out.  The report was authored by Paul Gross
 with help from a panel of distinguished science educators. 
 Predictably, evolution got particular attention.  A year ago,
 with Barbara Forrest, Gross examined the "intelligent design"
 movement in Creationism's Trojan Horse (Oxford, 2004).  Only
 seven states got an A, and almost half flunked.  Kansas achieved
 special distinction with the only F-.  Ironically, the report
 suggests the No Child Left Behind law contributed to the low
 science scores by requiring testing only in reading and math. 

 2. CLIMATE CHANGE: THERE ARE NO ESKIMOS IN CRAWFORD, TEXAS. 
 There are, however, Eskimos in Washington, DC this week, where on
 Wednesday, they filed a petition against the United States with
 the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights.  The Eskimo
 culture is dependent on sea ice, which is shrinking.  Perhaps
 they will subpoena 4 senators (3 Republican) who visited Barrow,
 AK last year http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN05/wn081905.html . 
 According to a NY Times story from the Montreal Climate Change
 Conference, the Bush Administration remains steadfastly opposed,
 not only to new goals for reduction of greenhouse emissions, but
 also to any  informal discussions that might even touch on the
 subject.  The Canadian Prime Minister, Paul Martin, singled out
 the U.S. for failing to join in the world effort to limit CO2
 emissions.  Meanwhile, Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchison (R-TX) has a
 bill to spend $10M to study weather modification.  Someone should
 explain that we're modifying the weather right now.

 3. SPACE LIMITS: NASA CHIEF CITES "DAUNTING FISCAL REALITIES." 
 At a meeting of the American Geophysical Union on Tuesday,
 Michael Griffin said, "We must acknowledge the plain fact that we
 cannot do everything that was on our plate when I assumed
 office."  We noticed that.  So far, the solution has been to cut
 out the science.  Meanwhile, the European Space Agency, unsure
 that the U.S. Shuttle will ever fly again, and unwilling to wait
 for a Crew Exploration Vehicle that won't fly before 2012, is
 thinking of investing in the Russian "Clipper." What they would
 do if they got to the ISS isn't clear.

 4. KANSAS: MYTHBUSTING HAS NEVER BEEN A VERY SAFE OCCUPATION. 
 Last Friday, WN noted that a course at the University of Kansas,
 "Special Topics in Religion: Intelligent Design, Creationism and
 other Religious Mythologies," had been cancelled.  Early Monday,
 Paul Mirecki, a religious-studies professor who was to teach the
 course, was stopped by two men on a rural road and beaten.

 THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND.
 Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the
 University of Maryland, but they should be.
 ---
 Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.bobpark.org
 What's New is moving to a different listserver and our
 subscription process has changed. To change your subscription
 status please visit this link:
 http://listserv.umd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=bobparks-whatsnew&A=1


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Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 16:43:15 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: the Pascal argument
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thomas malloy wrote:

>The exchange between Jed Rothwell and Bruce Wesley prompted me to 
>point out that no matter how persuasive you think your argument is, 
>the other person may dismiss it. Jed dismissed my argument about 
>spontaneous biogenesis too.

Note that I dismissed these for different reasons, at different 
levels. I am sorry to be pedantic, but strictly speaking Pascal's 
"argument" does not even reach the level of being an argument. It was 
a logical fallacy: "appeal to the consequences of a belief." 
Spontaneous biogenesis is at least hypothetically possible I suppose 
(it is not a logical fallacy), but I think it is factually wrong.

The difference between a logical fallacy and an incorrect argument is 
like the difference between a physics equation with an algebraic 
error, and an equation which is mathematically correct but does 
describe reality. Strictly speaking, an equation with an algebraic 
error is not an "equation"; it does not equate. It fails to reach the 
level of being either right or wrong.

Pascal's argument was also factually wrong because belief is not 
voluntary. A person can be persuaded to believe one thing or another, 
or deceived by propaganda, but he cannot by his own volition simply 
pick one belief and discard another. At least, in theory he cannot, 
but in real life people often appear to select a belief because it 
happens to be more convenient, profitable, popular or safe. I suppose 
a woman might persuade herself she is truly in love with a man who 
happens to be a billionaire, even though she would not give him a 
second glance if he were poor.

In other words, in ordinary life many people find an appeal to the 
consequences of a belief persuasive even though it is illogical. 
Politicians use this and many other well-known fallacies to 
manipulate the public, including as appeal to emotion, appeal to 
fear, pity, popularity, ridicule, spite and so on. Politicians use 
"misleading vividness" to appropriate vast sums of money to combat 
unlikely terrorist attacks that might kill a few thousand people, 
while they ignore problems that routinely kill tens of thousands of 
people every year.

It is understandable that politicians ignore logic -- since it is not 
popular with the public, and never has been -- but scientists and 
mathematicians should be held to a higher standard.

- Jed


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Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 17:04:33 -0500
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: the Pascal argument
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 <7.0.0.16.2.20051209160720.03aed4e8 mindspring.com>
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I wrote:

>The difference between a logical fallacy and an incorrect argument 
>is like the difference between a physics equation with an algebraic 
>error, and an equation which is mathematically correct but does 
>describe reality.

Meant "does NOT describe reality."

A famous physicist once dismissed a hypothesis by saying, "that's not 
right; it isn't even wrong." That was a satirical, cutting remark, 
but actually many assertions fit that description.

- Jed


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Subject: Re: the Pascal argument
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Jed wrote:

> Spontaneous biogenesis is at least hypothetically possible I suppose
> (it is not a logical fallacy), but I think it is factually wrong.

??? What else is there besides God-designed biogenesis and purely
spontaneous biogenesis? Something along the lines of Hoyle's panspermia? I'm
rather intrigued by the above, please elaborate. (and note I am not going to
start a battle over whatever you say...I am genuinely interested)

And to the list in general:

Aside from that, as far as Pascal's wager goes, I can only offer this: in
the end, we will know. Unfortunately, getting to the point to absolutely
know the answer is sort of a one way thing.

As to logical fallacies....I do not like them. But worse, I even more
dislike the fact that whenever there is a debate over something, people
spend more time pointing out each other's use of logical fallacies and/or
grammatical problems, then actually discussing the topic at hand. Case in
point: Usenet.

Which circle of hell do the alt.* newsgroups lie within? :)

--Kyle

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Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 22:11:44 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell mindspring.com>
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Subject: Re: the Pascal argument
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Kyle R. Mcallister writes:

> As to logical fallacies....I do not like them. But worse, I even more
> dislike the fact that whenever there is a debate over something, people
> spend more time pointing out each other's use of logical fallacies and/or
> grammatical problems, then actually discussing the topic at hand.

I agree that one should not criticize grammar, especially when some participants are not native speakers. I would hate to have my statements in Japanese judged on this basis! But I think it is a good idea to look carefully at the logic of a claim even before you consider the topic at hand. As I said, it is like physics: first you have to get the equations right, then you can judge whether they model reality correctly. (Bearing in mind they are always approximations to some extent.) It does not matter what the subject is, the argument must work in the abstract, and a surprising number of arguments do not. You can spot basic logic errors in newspaper opinion columns in the New York Times for example. Even in scientific debates in journals, especially letter columns. Everything that follows a logical error is a waste of time. This forum is refreshingly rigorous. I am also impressed by the Wikipedia articles and "discussion" pages. They tend to stay on-topic and logical.

I sometimes think we should develop a wiki-based book on cold fusion, similar to Ed Storms' "Student's Guide." But I could never persuade the experts to participate.

- Jed



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Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 22:34:34 -0500
From: Harry Veeder <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: OffTopic: Lust and the bible
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from
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/covet.html

To Covet and Lust can be Good, not Evil
------------------------------------------------
Let=B9s begin with a quiz of the following questions:


1.    Can a Christian lust and still be qualified to enter into the Kingdom
of God?=20
2.    Can a man or a woman lust for their mate, yet without sin?
3.    Is lusting a sin?
4.    Do you really know the difference between lust and desire?
5.    If you lust for something, would your Maker grant it to you?
6.    If you caught yourself lusting should you repent of it?
7.    Does God, Christ, and all the holy angels ever lust? Those who are
spirit beings, those who are Holy, perfect, and righteous?


Don=B9t be too quick to answer. Remember, all of our background came from our
parents, culture, and our society.


God condemns the use of any thing, any thought, and any attitude that is
harmful to you or your neighbor. But he will never condemn the right use of
any good thing that he himself has created. Remember what God said about al=
l
those things he created? "It was very good" (Genesis 1:31). He didn=B9t say i=
t
was bad, not a mixture of truth and error, but very good.


"Covet" and "Lust" are Neutral Words

The adversary has deceived men into believing that sex, lust, coveting,
pleasure, sensuality, and feeling good is evil; yet, when God created all
things he said "it was very good" (Genesis 1:31 ). Who are you going to
believe? Christians desire, lust for, and covet after the Knowledge and
Wisdom of God, which is good. Sensuality, like lust, is purely neutral. Wha=
t
you do with it determines whether you sin or not. Sex with strangers is not
good, but sex with your spouse is. There is nothing wrong with lusting. Do
you lust for your wife, or do you lust for somebody else=B9s wife? This is th=
e
point. The Law does not say, "Do not covet", it says do not covet anything
that belongs to somebody else (Exodus 20:17).


Your arch enemy would always like you to blur the difference and remove the
boundaries between the holy and the profane, between the light and darkness=
.
That=B9s why the Creator told Adam and Eve to eat of every tree that is in th=
e
garden, except of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil! You see, if
someone gives you a glass of pure crystal clear sweet water, that=B9s good.
But if you put a few drops of poison into it, that=B9s bad. And the bad makes
the whole thing bad. And therefore the tree of the knowledge of good and
evil is all bad, because poison will kill you, it takes time. Good and evil
is not good, it is sinful. And therefore, to have a morality that is a
mixture of good and evil is a sinful morality.


That=B9s why we are studying the Word of God, because we are admitting that w=
e
are not clean, pure, righteous, perfect, but we want to be. And so we shoul=
d
not be offended at the words of God when they simply be contrary to what we
think.=20


Positive examples in Scripture

In the Hebrew, "lust" (#08378 ta'avah & #0183 'avah) is defined as "to
desire eagerly, to long for, to wish, to crave, to covet, to yearn, to be
eager to, to have an appetite for." Lust could be used rightly or wrongly.
By itself it is neutral. Whether lust is good or bad should be determined
only by your Maker, and not by mere, fallible, mortal man, who doesn=B9t even
have a clean mind!=20


Positive examples of "lust" in the Bible are:


*    Deuteronomy 14:26 (lusteth) where God commanded the Israelites to turn
the tithes into money and spend it on whatever their soul lusts for;
*    Psalm 21:2 (desire) where God satisfies your lusts if they are good an=
d
right for you;=20
*    Psalm 132:13 (desired) where the Lord himself lusted Zion for his
habitation;=20
*    Proverbs 10:24 (desire) where the lust of the righteous shall be
granted;=20
*    Proverbs 11:23 (desire) where the lust of the righteous is good, and
this is in contrast to the lust of the wicked;
*    Proverbs 13:12 (desire) where lust will earn you the "tree of life",
and not eternal torment in the lake of fire, as many Christians teach today=
;
and=20
*    Isaiah 26:8 (desire) where the lust of our soul is to God=B9s name.


In the Hebrew, the word "covet" (word # 02530 chamad) is defined as "to
desire, lustful, be carnally excited (speaking about the physical aspect of
it; like how a little babe gets excited at a toy. This is referring to the
pure carnal excitement, not the impure), pleasant, charming, beloved,
lovely, delightful, desirable, precious, pretty, grateful, cute, darling,
dainty, delectable", and it also means "greed, avarice, grasping, envious".
The majority of the concept "to covet" is positive, not negative.


Positive examples of "covetous" in the bible are:

*    Genesis 2:9 (pleasant) where, in the Garden of Eden, the LORD God made
to grow every tree that is covetous to the sight,
*    Psalm 19:7-10 (desired) where the Law of the Lord is to be coveted
after,=20
*    Psalm 68:16 (desireth) where God Himself covets us to dwell in the hil=
l
of God,=20
*    Proverbs 21:20 (desired) where the wise will covet treasure,
*    Matthew 13:17 (desired) where the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven
have been coveted after by many prophets and righteous men,
*    Luke 16:20-21 (desiring) where a beggar coveted to be fed,
*    Luke 17:22 (desire) where Christ told his disciples they would covet t=
o
see one of the days of the Son of man,
*    Luke 22:15 (desired) where Christ Jesus coveted to eat the passover
with His disciples,
*    1 Timothy 3:1 (desireth) where if a man covets after the office of a
bishop, he desires a good work.
*    1 Corinthians 12:31 (covet) where believers are commanded to covet
earnestly the best spiritual gifts,
*    1 Corinthians 12:31 (covet) where brethren are commanded to covet to
prophesy,=20
*    Hebrews 6:11 (desire) where we covet after others to show diligence,
and=20
*    1 Peter 1:12 (desire) where angels covet after the things of God.
You can covet the Law of God, and desire Jesus Christ. But, when your mind
becomes defiled, then everything becomes defiled. You can desire the right
thing, or you can desire the wrong thing.


The term "lust" appears 107 times in the Bible (54 times in the OT, 53 time=
s
in the NT). 35 cases in the Old Testament it is used to describe positive
aspects, and in 19 cases it is spoken in the negative. The term "covet"
appears 81 times in the Bible (65 times in the OT, 16 times in the NT).
Lusting and coveting are synonymous in both the Hebrew and the Greek (word
#1937 epithumeo). The words "covet" and "lust" are used most often in the
positive than in the negative. Only the context can tell you which way it
goes.=20


--Boundary_(ID_gl8jb2j9fE+Svvgaiu92vA)
Content-type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>OffTopic: Lust and the bible</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<BR>
from<BR>
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/covet.html<BR>
<BR>
To Covet and Lust can be Good, not Evil<BR>
------------------------------------------------<BR>
Let=B9s begin with a quiz of the following questions:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
1. &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Can a Christian lust and still be qualified to enter i=
nto the Kingdom of God? <BR>
2. &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Can a man or a woman lust for their mate, yet without =
sin? <BR>
3. &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Is lusting a sin? <BR>
4. &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Do you really know the difference between lust and des=
ire? <BR>
5. &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;If you lust for something, would your Maker grant it t=
o you? <BR>
6. &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;If you caught yourself lusting should you repent of it=
? <BR>
7. &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Does God, Christ, and all the holy angels ever lust? T=
hose who are spirit beings, those who are Holy, perfect, and righteous?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Don=B9t be too quick to answer. Remember, all of our background came from our=
 parents, culture, and our society. <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
God condemns the use of any thing, any thought, and any attitude that is ha=
rmful to you or your neighbor. But he will never condemn the right use of an=
y good thing that he himself has created. Remember what God said about all t=
hose things he created? &quot;It was very good&quot; (Genesis 1:31). He didn=
=B9t say it was bad, not a mixture of truth and error, but very good. <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
&quot;Covet&quot; and &quot;Lust&quot; are Neutral Words<BR>
<BR>
The adversary has deceived men into believing that sex, lust, coveting, ple=
asure, sensuality, and feeling good is evil; yet, when God created all thing=
s he said &quot;it was very good&quot; (Genesis 1:31 ). Who are you going to=
 believe? Christians desire, lust for, and covet after the Knowledge and Wis=
dom of God, which is good. Sensuality, like lust, is purely neutral. What yo=
u do with it determines whether you sin or not. Sex with strangers is not go=
od, but sex with your spouse is. There is nothing wrong with lusting. Do you=
 lust for your wife, or do you lust for somebody else=B9s wife? This is the po=
int. The Law does not say, &quot;Do not covet&quot;, it says do not covet an=
ything that belongs to somebody else (Exodus 20:17). <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Your arch enemy would always like you to blur the difference and remove the=
 boundaries between the holy and the profane, between the light and darkness=
. That=B9s why the Creator told Adam and Eve to eat of every tree that is in t=
he garden, except of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil! You see, if=
 someone gives you a glass of pure crystal clear sweet water, that=B9s good. B=
ut if you put a few drops of poison into it, that=B9s bad. And the bad makes t=
he whole thing bad. And therefore the tree of the knowledge of good and evil=
 is all bad, because poison will kill you, it takes time. Good and evil is n=
ot good, it is sinful. And therefore, to have a morality that is a mixture o=
f good and evil is a sinful morality. <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
That=B9s why we are studying the Word of God, because we are admitting that w=
e are not clean, pure, righteous, perfect, but we want to be. And so we shou=
ld not be offended at the words of God when they simply be contrary to what =
we think. <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Positive examples in Scripture<BR>
<BR>
In the Hebrew, &quot;lust&quot; (#08378 ta'avah &amp; #0183 'avah) is defin=
ed as &quot;to desire eagerly, to long for, to wish, to crave, to covet, to =
yearn, to be eager to, to have an appetite for.&quot; Lust could be used rig=
htly or wrongly. By itself it is neutral. Whether lust is good or bad should=
 be determined only by your Maker, and not by mere, fallible, mortal man, wh=
o doesn=B9t even have a clean mind! <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Positive examples of &quot;lust&quot; in the Bible are:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
* &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Deuteronomy 14:26 (lusteth) where God commanded the Isr=
aelites to turn the tithes into money and spend it on whatever their soul lu=
sts for; <BR>
* &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Psalm 21:2 (desire) where God satisfies your lusts if t=
hey are good and right for you; <BR>
* &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Psalm 132:13 (desired) where the Lord himself lusted Zi=
on for his habitation; <BR>
* &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Proverbs 10:24 (desire) where the lust of the righteous=
 shall be granted; <BR>
* &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Proverbs 11:23 (desire) where the lust of the righteous=
 is good, and this is in contrast to the lust of the wicked; <BR>
* &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Proverbs 13:12 (desire) where lust will earn you the &q=
uot;tree of life&quot;, and not eternal torment in the lake of fire, as many=
 Christians teach today; and <BR>
* &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Isaiah 26:8 (desire) where the lust of our soul is to G=
od=B9s name. <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
In the Hebrew, the word &quot;covet&quot; (word # 02530 chamad) is defined =
as &quot;to desire, lustful, be carnally excited (speaking about the physica=
l aspect of it; like how a little babe gets excited at a toy. This is referr=
ing to the pure carnal excitement, not the impure), pleasant, charming, belo=
ved, lovely, delightful, desirable, precious, pretty, grateful, cute, darlin=
g, dainty, delectable&quot;, and it also means &quot;greed, avarice, graspin=
g, envious&quot;. The majority of the concept &quot;to covet&quot; is positi=
ve, not negative. <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Positive examples of &quot;covetous&quot; in the bible are: <BR>
<BR>
* &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Genesis 2:9 (pleasant) where, in the Garden of Eden, th=
e LORD God made to grow every tree that is covetous to the sight, <BR>
* &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Psalm 19:7-10 (desired) where the Law of the Lord is to=
 be coveted after, <BR>
* &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Psalm 68:16 (desireth) where God Himself covets us to d=
well in the hill of God, <BR>
* &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Proverbs 21:20 (desired) where the wise will covet trea=
sure, <BR>
* &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Matthew 13:17 (desired) where the mysteries of the king=
dom of heaven have been coveted after by many prophets and righteous men, <B=
R>
* &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Luke 16:20-21 (desiring) where a beggar coveted to be f=
ed, <BR>
* &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Luke 17:22 (desire) where Christ told his disciples the=
y would covet to see one of the days of the Son of man, <BR>
* &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Luke 22:15 (desired) where Christ Jesus coveted to eat =
the passover with His disciples, <BR>
* &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;1 Timothy 3:1 (desireth) where if a man covets after th=
e office of a bishop, he desires a good work. <BR>
* &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;1 Corinthians 12:31 (covet) where believers are command=
ed to covet earnestly the best spiritual gifts, <BR>
* &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;1 Corinthians 12:31 (covet) where brethren are commande=
d to covet to prophesy, <BR>
* &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Hebrews 6:11 (desire) where we covet after others to sh=
ow diligence, and <BR>
* &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;1 Peter 1:12 (desire) where angels covet after the thin=
gs of God. <BR>
You can covet the Law of God, and desire Jesus Christ. But, when your mind =
becomes defiled, then everything becomes defiled. You can desire the right t=
hing, or you can desire the wrong thing. <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
The term &quot;lust&quot; appears 107 times in the Bible (54 times in the O=
T, 53 times in the NT). 35 cases in the Old Testament it is used to describe=
 positive aspects, and in 19 cases it is spoken in the negative. The term &q=
uot;covet&quot; appears 81 times in the Bible (65 times in the OT, 16 times =
in the NT). Lusting and coveting are synonymous in both the Hebrew and the G=
reek (word #1937 epithumeo). The words &quot;covet&quot; and &quot;lust&quot=
; are used most often in the positive than in the negative. <B>Only the cont=
ext can tell you which way it goes. </B><BR>
</BODY>
</HTML>


--Boundary_(ID_gl8jb2j9fE+Svvgaiu92vA)--

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Jed Rothwell wrote:

> thomas malloy wrote:
>
>> The exchange between Jed Rothwell and Bruce Wesley prompted me to 
>> point out that no matter how persuasive you think your argument is, 
>> the other person may dismiss it. Jed dismissed my argument about 
>> spontaneous biogenesis too.
>
>
> Note that I dismissed these for different reasons, at different 
> levels. I am sorry to be pedantic, but strictly speaking Pascal's 
> "argument" does not even reach the level of being an argument. It was 
> a logical fallacy: "appeal to the consequences of a belief." 
> Spontaneous biogenesis is at least hypothetically possible I suppose 
> (it is not a logical fallacy), but I think it is factually wrong.

Like at least one other reader, I have no idea what you were getting at 
with that sentence.  I thought "spontaneous biogenesis" was mainstream 
science these days (at least, if you're north of the Mason Dixon line).

> The difference between a logical fallacy and an incorrect argument is 
> like the difference between a physics equation with an algebraic 
> error, and an equation which is mathematically correct but does 
> describe reality. Strictly speaking, an equation with an algebraic 
> error is not an "equation"; it does not equate. It fails to reach the 
> level of being either right or wrong.
>
> Pascal's argument was also factually wrong because belief is not 
> voluntary.

You have asserted this but you certainly haven't proved it, and I don't 
think you can, beyond asserting that it's self evident.  I'm not at all 
sure it's true.

(In fact, it might be easier to start by tackling the issue of free will 
(or lack thereof) than to take this one head-on.)

> A person can be persuaded to believe one thing or another,

Yes.  And why should it not be possible for people to, consciously and 
with intent, persuade _themselves_ of some particular belief or 
collection of beliefs?

It's not as simple as changing your socks, for sure, but there's a big 
gap between "difficult" and "impossible".  I think this one may lie in 
between.

> or deceived by propaganda, but he cannot by his own volition simply 
> pick one belief and discard another. At least, in theory he cannot, 
> but in real life people often appear to select a belief because it 
> happens to be more convenient, profitable, popular or safe.

And then they set about convincing themselves that it's true.  In other 
words, people intentionally change their own beliefs.

> I suppose a woman might persuade herself she is truly in love with a 
> man who happens to be a billionaire, even though she would not give 
> him a second glance if he were poor.

Time for an about-face here.

Nice as it might be to have you provide an example to bolster my 
argument, this one falls down:  she's most likely not "persuading" 
herself of anything in this case.  You have implicitly dismissed the 
possibility that money made the billionaire genuinely more attractive!

What is "love"?  It's something of extreme importance to the species and 
evolution has worked hard to get it "right".  In particular, you're a 
lot more likely to fall in love with someone who has valuable 
characteristics -- who is, in other words, attractive.  It is totally 
counter-survival to fall for someone who is himself or herself 
mal-adapted!  And, like it or not, worldly success is absolutely a part 
of what determines how "successful" you are, and historically it had a 
very direct and large impact how how many progeny you left.

It would be extremely surprising if many (or most) people did _not_ find 
someone who is successful more attractive than someone who isn't.  In 
evolutionary terms, it makes no sense to be attracted to "the 
underdog".  In today's world, success is measured primarily by how much 
money you have.  So, if a woman is attracted to someone who's rich at 
least in part _because_ he's rich, don't jump to the conclusion that 
she's intentionally fooling herself just because she wants his money.  
Rather, blame half a billion years of selection pressure guiding her to 
select a mate who can provide the opportunity to have a large, well 
cared for family.

In America it's common to view people who are attracted to successful 
people very negatively.  Realistically, to a large extent I think 
they're just _normal_.

> In other words, in ordinary life many people find an appeal to the 
> consequences of a belief persuasive even though it is illogical. 
> Politicians use this and many other well-known fallacies to manipulate 
> the public, including as appeal to emotion, appeal to fear, pity, 
> popularity, ridicule, spite and so on. Politicians use "misleading 
> vividness" to appropriate vast sums of money to combat unlikely 
> terrorist attacks that might kill a few thousand people, while they 
> ignore problems that routinely kill tens of thousands of people every 
> year.
>
> It is understandable that politicians ignore logic -- since it is not 
> popular with the public, and never has been -- but scientists and 
> mathematicians should be held to a higher standard.
>
> - Jed
>
>
>

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Jed wrote..

>It does not matter what the subject is, the argument must work in the =
abstract, and a surprising number of arguments do not.=20
>This forum is refreshingly rigorous.

Hi Jed,

Well stated. Before I read your threads on Pascal, I had given him more =
credit than was due.

Richard

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<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&gt;It does not matter what the subject is, the argument must work =
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<P>&gt;This forum is refreshingly rigorous.</P>
<P>Hi Jed,</P>
<P>Well stated. Before I read your threads on Pascal, I had given him =
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Subject: Re: OffTopic: Lust and the bible
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OffTopic: Lust and the bibleHi Harry,=20
One would consider that after all the research you have done on the =
subject, you would give us answers instead of questions.

Richard
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Harry Veeder=20
  To: vortex-l eskimo.com=20
  Sent: Friday, December 09, 2005 9:34 PM
  Subject: OffTopic: Lust and the bible



  from
  http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/covet.html

  To Covet and Lust can be Good, not Evil
  ------------------------------------------------
  Let=B9s begin with a quiz of the following questions:


  1.    Can a Christian lust and still be qualified to enter into the =
Kingdom of God?=20
  2.    Can a man or a woman lust for their mate, yet without sin?=20
  3.    Is lusting a sin?=20
  4.    Do you really know the difference between lust and desire?=20
  5.    If you lust for something, would your Maker grant it to you?=20
  6.    If you caught yourself lusting should you repent of it?=20
  7.    Does God, Christ, and all the holy angels ever lust? Those who =
are spirit beings, those who are Holy, perfect, and righteous?


  Don=B9t be too quick to answer. Remember, all of our background came =
from our parents, culture, and our society.=20


  God condemns the use of any thing, any thought, and any attitude that =
is harmful to you or your neighbor. But he will never condemn the right =
use of any good thing that he himself has created. Remember what God =
said about all those things he created? "It was very good" (Genesis =
1:31). He didn=B9t say it was bad, not a mixture of truth and error, but =
very good.=20


  "Covet" and "Lust" are Neutral Words

  The adversary has deceived men into believing that sex, lust, =
coveting, pleasure, sensuality, and feeling good is evil; yet, when God =
created all things he said "it was very good" (Genesis 1:31 ). Who are =
you going to believe? Christians desire, lust for, and covet after the =
Knowledge and Wisdom of God, which is good. Sensuality, like lust, is =
purely neutral. What you do with it determines whether you sin or not. =
Sex with strangers is not good, but sex with your spouse is. There is =
nothing wrong with lusting. Do you lust for your wife, or do you lust =
for somebody else=B9s wife? This is the point. The Law does not say, "Do =
not covet", it says do not covet anything that belongs to somebody else =
(Exodus 20:17).=20


  Your arch enemy would always like you to blur the difference and =
remove the boundaries between the holy and the profane, between the =
light and darkness. That=B9s why the Creator told Adam and Eve to eat of =
every tree that is in the garden, except of the tree of the knowledge of =
good and evil! You see, if someone gives you a glass of pure crystal =
clear sweet water, that=B9s good. But if you put a few drops of poison =
into it, that=B9s bad. And the bad makes the whole thing bad. And =
therefore the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is all bad, because =
poison will kill you, it takes time. Good and evil is not good, it is =
sinful. And therefore, to have a morality that is a mixture of good and =
evil is a sinful morality.=20


  That=B9s why we are studying the Word of God, because we are admitting =
that we are not clean, pure, righteous, perfect, but we want to be. And =
so we should not be offended at the words of God when they simply be =
contrary to what we think.=20


  Positive examples in Scripture

  In the Hebrew, "lust" (#08378 ta'avah & #0183 'avah) is defined as "to =
desire eagerly, to long for, to wish, to crave, to covet, to yearn, to =
be eager to, to have an appetite for." Lust could be used rightly or =
wrongly. By itself it is neutral. Whether lust is good or bad should be =
determined only by your Maker, and not by mere, fallible, mortal man, =
who doesn=B9t even have a clean mind!=20


  Positive examples of "lust" in the Bible are:


  *    Deuteronomy 14:26 (lusteth) where God commanded the Israelites to =
turn the tithes into money and spend it on whatever their soul lusts =
for;=20
  *    Psalm 21:2 (desire) where God satisfies your lusts if they are =
good and right for you;=20
  *    Psalm 132:13 (desired) where the Lord himself lusted Zion for his =
habitation;=20
  *    Proverbs 10:24 (desire) where the lust of the righteous shall be =
granted;=20
  *    Proverbs 11:23 (desire) where the lust of the righteous is good, =
and this is in contrast to the lust of the wicked;=20
  *    Proverbs 13:12 (desire) where lust will earn you the "tree of =
life", and not eternal torment in the lake of fire, as many Christians =
teach today; and=20
  *    Isaiah 26:8 (desire) where the lust of our soul is to God=B9s =
name.=20


  In the Hebrew, the word "covet" (word # 02530 chamad) is defined as =
"to desire, lustful, be carnally excited (speaking about the physical =
aspect of it; like how a little babe gets excited at a toy. This is =
referring to the pure carnal excitement, not the impure), pleasant, =
charming, beloved, lovely, delightful, desirable, precious, pretty, =
grateful, cute, darling, dainty, delectable", and it also means "greed, =
avarice, grasping, envious". The majority of the concept "to covet" is =
positive, not negative.=20


  Positive examples of "covetous" in the bible are:=20

  *    Genesis 2:9 (pleasant) where, in the Garden of Eden, the LORD God =
made to grow every tree that is covetous to the sight,=20
  *    Psalm 19:7-10 (desired) where the Law of the Lord is to be =
coveted after,=20
  *    Psalm 68:16 (desireth) where God Himself covets us to dwell in =
the hill of God,=20
  *    Proverbs 21:20 (desired) where the wise will covet treasure,=20
  *    Matthew 13:17 (desired) where the mysteries of the kingdom of =
heaven have been coveted after by many prophets and righteous men,=20
  *    Luke 16:20-21 (desiring) where a beggar coveted to be fed,=20
  *    Luke 17:22 (desire) where Christ told his disciples they would =
covet to see one of the days of the Son of man,=20
  *    Luke 22:15 (desired) where Christ Jesus coveted to eat the =
passover with His disciples,=20
  *    1 Timothy 3:1 (desireth) where if a man covets after the office =
of a bishop, he desires a good work.=20
  *    1 Corinthians 12:31 (covet) where believers are commanded to =
covet earnestly the best spiritual gifts,=20
  *    1 Corinthians 12:31 (covet) where brethren are commanded to covet =
to prophesy,=20
  *    Hebrews 6:11 (desire) where we covet after others to show =
diligence, and=20
  *    1 Peter 1:12 (desire) where angels covet after the things of God. =

  You can covet the Law of God, and desire Jesus Christ. But, when your =
mind becomes defiled, then everything becomes defiled. You can desire =
the right thing, or you can desire the wrong thing.=20


  The term "lust" appears 107 times in the Bible (54 times in the OT, 53 =
times in the NT). 35 cases in the Old Testament it is used to describe =
positive aspects, and in 19 cases it is spoken in the negative. The term =
"covet" appears 81 times in the Bible (65 times in the OT, 16 times in =
the NT). Lusting and coveting are synonymous in both the Hebrew and the =
Greek (word #1937 epithumeo). The words "covet" and "lust" are used most =
often in the positive than in the negative. Only the context can tell =
you which way it goes.=20

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<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>OffTopic: Lust and the bible</TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
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<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana size=3D2>Hi Harry, </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana size=3D2>One would consider that after all the =
research=20
you have done on the subject, you would give us answers instead of=20
questions.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana size=3D2>Richard</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3Deo200 freenet.carleton.ca=20
  href=3D"mailto:eo200 freenet.carleton.ca">Harry Veeder</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dvortex-l eskimo.com=20
  href=3D"mailto:vortex-l eskimo.com">vortex-l@eskimo.com</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, December 09, 2005 =
9:34=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> OffTopic: Lust and the =

  bible</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV><BR>from<BR><A=20
  =
href=3D"http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/covet.html">http://www.ecclesia.org=
/truth/covet.html</A><BR><BR>To=20
  Covet and Lust can be Good, not=20
  Evil<BR>------------------------------------------------<BR>Let=B9s =
begin with a=20
  quiz of the following questions:<BR><BR><BR>1. &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Can a =

  Christian lust and still be qualified to enter into the Kingdom of =
God? <BR>2.=20
  &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Can a man or a woman lust for their mate, yet =
without sin?=20
  <BR>3. &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Is lusting a sin? <BR>4. &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Do =
you=20
  really know the difference between lust and desire? <BR>5.=20
  &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;If you lust for something, would your Maker grant it =
to you?=20
  <BR>6. &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;If you caught yourself lusting should you =
repent of=20
  it? <BR>7. &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Does God, Christ, and all the holy angels =
ever=20
  lust? Those who are spirit beings, those who are Holy, perfect, and=20
  righteous?<BR><BR><BR>Don=B9t be too quick to answer. Remember, all of =
our=20
  background came from our parents, culture, and our society. =
<BR><BR><BR>God=20
  condemns the use of any thing, any thought, and any attitude that is =
harmful=20
  to you or your neighbor. But he will never condemn the right use of =
any good=20
  thing that he himself has created. Remember what God said about all =
those=20
  things he created? "It was very good" (Genesis 1:31). He didn=B9t say =
it was=20
  bad, not a mixture of truth and error, but very good. =
<BR><BR><BR>"Covet" and=20
  "Lust" are Neutral Words<BR><BR>The adversary has deceived men into =
believing=20
  that sex, lust, coveting, pleasure, sensuality, and feeling good is =
evil; yet,=20
  when God created all things he said "it was very good" (Genesis 1:31 =
). Who=20
  are you going to believe? Christians desire, lust for, and covet after =
the=20
  Knowledge and Wisdom of God, which is good. Sensuality, like lust, is =
purely=20
  neutral. What you do with it determines whether you sin or not. Sex =
with=20
  strangers is not good, but sex with your spouse is. There is nothing =
wrong=20
  with lusting. Do you lust for your wife, or do you lust for somebody =
else=B9s=20
  wife? This is the point. The Law does not say, "Do not covet", it says =
do not=20
  covet anything that belongs to somebody else (Exodus 20:17). =
<BR><BR><BR>Your=20
  arch enemy would always like you to blur the difference and remove the =

  boundaries between the holy and the profane, between the light and =
darkness.=20
  That=B9s why the Creator told Adam and Eve to eat of every tree that =
is in the=20
  garden, except of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil! You see, =
if=20
  someone gives you a glass of pure crystal clear sweet water, that=B9s =
good. But=20
  if you put a few drops of poison into it, that=B9s bad. And the bad =
makes the=20
  whole thing bad. And therefore the tree of the knowledge of good and =
evil is=20
  all bad, because poison will kill you, it takes time. Good and evil is =
not=20
  good, it is sinful. And therefore, to have a morality that is a =
mixture of=20
  good and evil is a sinful morality. <BR><BR><BR>That=B9s why we are =
studying the=20
  Word of God, because we are admitting that we are not clean, pure, =
righteous,=20
  perfect, but we want to be. And so we should not be offended at the =
words of=20
  God when they simply be contrary to what we think. =
<BR><BR><BR>Positive=20
  examples in Scripture<BR><BR>In the Hebrew, "lust" (#08378 ta'avah =
&amp; #0183=20
  'avah) is defined as "to desire eagerly, to long for, to wish, to =
crave, to=20
  covet, to yearn, to be eager to, to have an appetite for." Lust could =
be used=20
  rightly or wrongly. By itself it is neutral. Whether lust is good or =
bad=20
  should be determined only by your Maker, and not by mere, fallible, =
mortal=20
  man, who doesn=B9t even have a clean mind! <BR><BR><BR>Positive =
examples of=20
  "lust" in the Bible are:<BR><BR><BR>* &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Deuteronomy =
14:26=20
  (lusteth) where God commanded the Israelites to turn the tithes into =
money and=20
  spend it on whatever their soul lusts for; <BR>* =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Psalm 21:2=20
  (desire) where God satisfies your lusts if they are good and right for =
you;=20
  <BR>* &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Psalm 132:13 (desired) where the Lord himself =
lusted=20
  Zion for his habitation; <BR>* &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Proverbs 10:24 =
(desire) where=20
  the lust of the righteous shall be granted; <BR>* =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Proverbs=20
  11:23 (desire) where the lust of the righteous is good, and this is in =

  contrast to the lust of the wicked; <BR>* &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Proverbs =
13:12=20
  (desire) where lust will earn you the "tree of life", and not eternal =
torment=20
  in the lake of fire, as many Christians teach today; and <BR>*=20
  &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Isaiah 26:8 (desire) where the lust of our soul is =
to God=B9s=20
  name. <BR><BR><BR>In the Hebrew, the word "covet" (word # 02530 =
chamad) is=20
  defined as "to desire, lustful, be carnally excited (speaking about =
the=20
  physical aspect of it; like how a little babe gets excited at a toy. =
This is=20
  referring to the pure carnal excitement, not the impure), pleasant, =
charming,=20
  beloved, lovely, delightful, desirable, precious, pretty, grateful, =
cute,=20
  darling, dainty, delectable", and it also means "greed, avarice, =
grasping,=20
  envious". The majority of the concept "to covet" is positive, not =
negative.=20
  <BR><BR><BR>Positive examples of "covetous" in the bible are: =
<BR><BR>*=20
  &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Genesis 2:9 (pleasant) where, in the Garden of Eden, =
the=20
  LORD God made to grow every tree that is covetous to the sight, <BR>*=20
  &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Psalm 19:7-10 (desired) where the Law of the Lord is =
to be=20
  coveted after, <BR>* &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Psalm 68:16 (desireth) where =
God=20
  Himself covets us to dwell in the hill of God, <BR>*=20
  &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Proverbs 21:20 (desired) where the wise will covet =
treasure,=20
  <BR>* &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Matthew 13:17 (desired) where the mysteries of =
the=20
  kingdom of heaven have been coveted after by many prophets and =
righteous men,=20
  <BR>* &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Luke 16:20-21 (desiring) where a beggar =
coveted to be=20
  fed, <BR>* &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Luke 17:22 (desire) where Christ told his =

  disciples they would covet to see one of the days of the Son of man, =
<BR>*=20
  &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Luke 22:15 (desired) where Christ Jesus coveted to =
eat the=20
  passover with His disciples, <BR>* &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;1 Timothy 3:1 =
(desireth)=20
  where if a man covets after the office of a bishop, he desires a good =
work.=20
  <BR>* &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;1 Corinthians 12:31 (covet) where believers =
are=20
  commanded to covet earnestly the best spiritual gifts, <BR>*=20
  &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;1 Corinthians 12:31 (covet) where brethren are =
commanded to=20
  covet to prophesy, <BR>* &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Hebrews 6:11 (desire) where =
we=20
  covet after others to show diligence, and <BR>* &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;1 =
Peter 1:12=20
  (desire) where angels covet after the things of God. <BR>You can covet =
the Law=20
  of God, and desire Jesus Christ. But, when your mind becomes defiled, =
then=20
  everything becomes defiled. You can desire the right thing, or you can =
desire=20
  the wrong thing. <BR><BR><BR>The term "lust" appears 107 times in the =
Bible=20
  (54 times in the OT, 53 times in the NT). 35 cases in the Old =
Testament it is=20
  used to describe positive aspects, and in 19 cases it is spoken in the =

  negative. The term "covet" appears 81 times in the Bible (65 times in =
the OT,=20
  16 times in the NT). Lusting and coveting are synonymous in both the =
Hebrew=20
  and the Greek (word #1937 epithumeo). The words "covet" and "lust" are =
used=20
  most often in the positive than in the negative. <B>Only the context =
can tell=20
  you which way it goes. </B><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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Subject: Re: OffTopic: Lust and the bible
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>---- Original Message -----
>From: <mailto:eo200 freenet.carleton.ca>Harry Veeder
>To: <mailto:vortex-l eskimo.com>vortex-l@eskimo.com
>Sent: Friday, December 09, 2005 9:34 PM
>Subject: OffTopic: Lust and the bible
>
>1.    Can a Christian lust and still be qualified to enter into the 
>Kingdom of God?
1. Yes, if he figures out how to make cold fusion work while he is on earth.
>2.    Can a man or a woman lust for their mate, yet without sin?
2. Only in a house powered by cold fusion.
>3.    Is lusting a sin?
3. It depends on the energy consumed and the energy generated.
>4.    Do you really know the difference between lust and desire?
4. If you have a good calorimeter, it is easy to tell.
>5.    If you lust for something, would your Maker grant it to you?
5. Yes, if it is clean and without harmful waste.
>6.    If you caught yourself lusting should you repent of it?
6. Only if someone saw you.
>7.    Does God, Christ, and all the holy angels ever lust? Those who are 
>spirit beings, those who are Holy, perfect, and righteous?
7. Inevitably, like cold fusion, lust is part of nature and all beings.


s 
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<html>
<body>
<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">
<dl>
<dd>---- Original Message ----- <br>

<dd>From:</b> <a href="mailto:eo200 freenet.carleton.ca">Harry Veeder</a>
<br>

<dd>To:</b> <a href="mailto:vortex-l eskimo.com">vortex-l@eskimo.com</a>
<br>

<dd>Sent:</b> Friday, December 09, 2005 9:34 PM<br>

<dd>Subject:</b> OffTopic: Lust and the bible<br><br>

<dd>1.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Can a Christian lust and still be qualified to
enter into the Kingdom of God? </blockquote>
</dl>1. Yes, if he figures out how to make cold fusion work while he is
on earth.<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">
<dl>
<dd>2.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Can a man or a woman lust for their mate, yet
without sin? </blockquote>
</dl>2. Only in a house powered by cold fusion.<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">
<dl>
<dd>3.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Is lusting a sin? </blockquote>
</dl>3. It depends on the energy consumed and the energy generated.<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">
<dl>
<dd>4.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Do you really know the difference between lust
and desire? </blockquote>
</dl>4. If you have a good calorimeter, it is easy to tell.<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">
<dl>
<dd>5.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; If you lust for something, would your Maker
grant it to you? </blockquote>
</dl>5. Yes, if it is clean and without harmful waste.<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">
<dl>
<dd>6.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; If you caught yourself lusting should you repent
of it? </blockquote>
</dl>6. Only if someone saw you.<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">
<dl>
<dd>7.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Does God, Christ, and all the holy angels ever
lust? Those who are spirit beings, those who are Holy, perfect, and
righteous?</blockquote>
</dl>7. Inevitably, like cold fusion, lust is part of nature and all
beings.<br><br>
<br>
s</body>
</html>

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Subject: Re: OffTopic: Lust and the bible
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RC Macaulay wrote:

Hi Harry, 
One would consider that after all the research you have done on the subject,
you would give us answers instead of questions.


Hi Richard,

It is not my research, but the web page concludes by saying, "Only the
context can tell you which way it goes."

Anyway, the notion of lust is not entirely off topic for a fringe physics
forum.

I think Newton erred by over extending the principle of inertia. As I see
it, 
the principle only holds during a collision. Inertia is a body lusting for
itself,
and to the opposing body this appears as a force.
Before and after a collision, the body returns to lusting for other bodies.

If the principle of inertia ceases to hold between material collisions
then Newton's problem of  "action at a distance"  does not arise.

Harry 

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<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Re: OffTopic: Lust and the bible</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<B><BR>
<BR>
</B><BR>
RC Macaulay wrote:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE><FONT SIZE="2"><FONT FACE="Verdana">Hi Harry, <BR>
One would consider that after all the research you have done on the subject, you would give us answers instead of questions.<BR>
</FONT></FONT><BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>Hi Richard,<BR>
<BR>
It is not my research, but the web page concludes by saying, &quot;Only the <BR>
context can tell you which way it goes.&quot;<BR>
<BR>
Anyway, the notion of lust is not entirely off topic for a fringe physics <BR>
forum.<BR>
<BR>
I think Newton erred by over extending the principle of inertia. As I see it, <BR>
the principle only holds during a collision. Inertia is a body lusting for itself,<BR>
and to the opposing body this appears as a force.<BR>
Before and after a collision, the body returns to lusting for other bodies. <BR>
<BR>
If the principle of inertia ceases to hold between material collisions<BR>
then Newton's problem of &nbsp;&quot;action at a distance&quot; &nbsp;does not arise. <BR>
<B><BR>
</B>Harry 
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Taking a cue from the Chubb phonon theory plus experiments that
seem to support it, surrounding a UV fluorescent tube with D2O in
a reflective metal cavity  might effect CF if the energy density is sufficient. 

Ed Storms has/had one of these (4 watt) in an Eprom 254 nanometer uv eraser unit that I sent
him several years ago.
The deuteron density in D2O is greater than it is in deuterium- palladium.

Fred
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<HTML><HEAD>
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2769" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Taking a cue from the Chubb phonon theory plus experiments that</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>seem to support it, surrounding a UV fluorescent tube with D2O in</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>a reflective metal cavity&nbsp; might effect CF if the energy density is sufficient. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Ed Storms has/had one of these (4 watt) in an Eprom 254 nanometer uv eraser unit that I sent</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>him several years ago.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>The deuteron density in D2O is greater than it is in deuterium- palladium.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Fred</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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At 10:53 pm 09/12/2005 -0500, Stephen wrote:
>
>
> Jed Rothwell wrote:
>
>> thomas malloy wrote:
>>
>>> The exchange between Jed Rothwell and Bruce Wesley prompted me to 
>>> point out that no matter how persuasive you think your argument is, 
>>> the other person may dismiss it. Jed dismissed my argument about 
>>> spontaneous biogenesis too.
>>
>>
>> Note that I dismissed these for different reasons, at different 
>> levels. I am sorry to be pedantic, but strictly speaking Pascal's 
>> "argument" does not even reach the level of being an argument. It was 
>> a logical fallacy: "appeal to the consequences of a belief." 
>> Spontaneous biogenesis is at least hypothetically possible I suppose 
>> (it is not a logical fallacy), but I think it is factually wrong.
>
> Like at least one other reader, I have no idea what you were getting at 
> with that sentence.  I thought "spontaneous biogenesis" was mainstream 
> science these days (at least, if you're north of the Mason Dixon line).
>
>> The difference between a logical fallacy and an incorrect argument is 
>> like the difference between a physics equation with an algebraic 
>> error, and an equation which is mathematically correct but does 
>> describe reality. Strictly speaking, an equation with an algebraic 
>> error is not an "equation"; it does not equate. It fails to reach the 
>> level of being either right or wrong.
>>
>> Pascal's argument was also factually wrong because belief is not 
>> voluntary.
>
> You have asserted this but you certainly haven't proved it, and I don't 
> think you can, beyond asserting that it's self evident.  I'm not at all 
> sure it's true.
>
> (In fact, it might be easier to start by tackling the issue of free will 
> (or lack thereof) than to take this one head-on.)
>
>> A person can be persuaded to believe one thing or another,
>
> Yes.  And why should it not be possible for people to, consciously and 
> with intent, persuade _themselves_ of some particular belief or 
> collection of beliefs?
>
> It's not as simple as changing your socks, for sure, but there's a big 
> gap between "difficult" and "impossible".  I think this one may lie in 
> between.
>
>> or deceived by propaganda, but he cannot by his own volition simply 
>> pick one belief and discard another. At least, in theory he cannot, 
>> but in real life people often appear to select a belief because it 
>> happens to be more convenient, profitable, popular or safe.
>
> And then they set about convincing themselves that it's true.  In other 
> words, people intentionally change their own beliefs.
>
>> I suppose a woman might persuade herself she is truly in love with a 
>> man who happens to be a billionaire, even though she would not give 
>> him a second glance if he were poor.
>
> Time for an about-face here.
>
> Nice as it might be to have you provide an example to bolster my 
> argument, this one falls down:  she's most likely not "persuading" 
> herself of anything in this case.  You have implicitly dismissed the 
> possibility that money made the billionaire genuinely more attractive!
>
> What is "love"?  It's something of extreme importance to the species and 
> evolution has worked hard to get it "right".  In particular, you're a 
> lot more likely to fall in love with someone who has valuable 
> characteristics -- who is, in other words, attractive.  It is totally 
> counter-survival to fall for someone who is himself or herself 
> mal-adapted!  And, like it or not, worldly success is absolutely a part 
> of what determines how "successful" you are, and historically it had a 
> very direct and large impact how many progeny you left.
>
> It would be extremely surprising if many (or most) people did _not_ find 
> someone who is successful more attractive than someone who isn't.  In 
> evolutionary terms, it makes no sense to be attracted to "the 
> underdog".  In today's world, success is measured primarily by how much 
> money you have.  So, if a woman is attracted to someone who's rich at 
> least in part _because_ he's rich, don't jump to the conclusion that 
> she's intentionally fooling herself just because she wants his money.  
> Rather, blame half a billion years of selection pressure guiding her to 
> select a mate who can provide the opportunity to have a large, well 
> cared for family.



I agree with Stephen's argument who has put it far more effectively than I
could. For me, belief is not an emotional thing but a question of the will.

I might choose to believe something and therefore act upon it even though
my emotions may revolt against it. 

I long ago discovered that logic was a very poor instrument in matters of 
belief since logic proceeds from certain assumptions which are unprovable 
and there is a tendency to decide what one wants to believe and then pick
those assumptions that justify that belief.

I'll give you an example of this from my own career experience.

When I was working in the Soil-Section of the Road Research Laboratory, I
was asked by my director to make an economic analysis of the relative costs
of soil stabilization with cement as compared with crushed stone for road
construction. I found that one had to make a large number of assumptions 
about costs at the base of a logical pyramid which build up to the point
at the top giving the final costs. With each assumption there was a band 
of costs which one was free to choose without being accused of being 
unreasonable. By biasing each assumption choice slightly in the direction 
which gave the required answer I was able to give my boss what I knew he 
wanted. 

The economic argument could not be refuted by picking on any individual 
assumption or group of assumptions and showing they were unreasonable cos
they weren't. To take all the assumptions and bias them the other way would
be as much work as was entailed in the first place and no one was going to 
do that.

Ultimately what we believe is what we choose to believe and we show what we
believe by our actions. For example, Jed obviously believes in Cold Fusion. 
Beliefs can't be justified logically and  can't be refuted logically. Even 
in mathematics (and you can't get more logical than that) we have Godel's 
incompleteness theorem. 

As the great Doctor Johnson so wisely observed. Those two women will never 
agree. They are arguing from different premises.  8-)

Cheers,

Frank Grimer

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For those not on a brain transplant waiting list (for honing their OFF TOPIC skills)
here is a 140 page pdf thesis that touches on the 1964 Garmire and Townes experiment
that converted laser/maser light into intense sound waves in liquids and solids.
"Stimulated Brillouin Scattering" SBS.

http://www.nat.vu.nl/atom/thesis-iavor.pdf

Germane to the Chubbs' phonon-phonon-light effects seen in the CF experiments.

Fred    
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Frederick Sparber 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Sent: 12/10/2005 1:06:59 AM 
Subject: Re: Trapped Light Cold Fusion?


Taking a cue from the Chubb phonon theory plus experiments that
seem to support it, surrounding a UV fluorescent tube with D2O in
a reflective metal cavity  might effect CF if the energy density is sufficient. 

Ed Storms has/had one of these (4 watt) in an Eprom 254 nanometer uv eraser unit that I sent
him several years ago.
The deuteron density in D2O is greater than it is in deuterium- palladium.

Fred
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<HTML style="FONT-SIZE: x-small; FONT-FAMILY: MS Sans Serif"><HEAD>
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2769" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV>
<DIV>For those not on a brain transplant waiting list (for honing their OFF TOPIC skills)</DIV>
<DIV>here is a 140 page pdf thesis that touches on the 1964 Garmire and Townes experiment</DIV>
<DIV>that converted laser/maser light into intense sound waves in liquids and solids.</DIV>
<DIV>"Stimulated Brillouin Scattering" SBS.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://www.nat.vu.nl/atom/thesis-iavor.pdf">http://www.nat.vu.nl/atom/thesis-iavor.pdf</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Germane to the Chubbs' phonon-phonon-light effects seen in the CF experiments.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Fred&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=fjsparber earthlink.net href="mailto:fjsparber@earthlink.net">Frederick Sparber</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To: </B><A title=vortex-l eskimo.com href="mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com">vortex-l@eskimo.com</A></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> 12/10/2005 1:06:59 AM </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Trapped Light Cold Fusion?</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><FONT size=2>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Taking a cue from the Chubb phonon theory plus experiments that</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>seem to support it, surrounding a UV fluorescent tube with D2O in</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>a reflective metal cavity&nbsp; might effect CF if the energy density is sufficient. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Ed Storms has/had one of these (4 watt) in an Eprom 254 nanometer uv eraser unit that I sent</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>him several years ago.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>The deuteron density in D2O is greater than it is in deuterium- palladium.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Fred</FONT></DIV></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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The "Stimulated Brillouin Scattering" SBS article makes note that
water due to it's conductivity isn't as good a candidate as the insulating liquids
using the laser (photon) wavelengths.

http://www.nat.vu.nl/atom/thesis-iavor.pdf

OTOH, if the CF reaction, D-D ---> He-4 + "phonon-trapped" gammas(1 to 2 Mev totaling 24 Mev )
with wavelengths comparable to the electrons create phonon vibrations in D2O
the lack of detectable external gammas is explained.

IOW, prime the pump with UV or laser photons to get things started.

Fred
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<HTML><HEAD>
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<DIV>The "Stimulated Brillouin Scattering" SBS article makes note that</DIV>
<DIV>water due to it's conductivity isn't as good a candidate as the insulating liquids</DIV>
<DIV>using the laser (photon) wavelengths.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://www.nat.vu.nl/atom/thesis-iavor.pdf">http://www.nat.vu.nl/atom/thesis-iavor.pdf</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>OTOH, if the CF reaction, D-D ---&gt; He-4 + "phonon-trapped" gammas(1 to 2 Mev totaling 24 Mev )</DIV>
<DIV>with wavelengths comparable to the electrons create phonon vibrations in D2O</DIV>
<DIV>the lack of detectable external gammas is explained.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>IOW, prime the pump with UV or laser photons to get things started.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Fred</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8--


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 10 04:34:33 2005
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thomas malloy wrote:

> Vortexians;
>
> I assume that the halos are caused by the decay of the radioneuclide 
> in the zirconium crystal. I assume that there are multiple decays. Is 
> the intensity of the halo determined by the number of decays? Is there 
> some way to determine the number of decay events by it's intensity?
>
>
> --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- 
> http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---
>
The sequece and the intensity are related and predicted by equations. 
Each step of the decay sequence leaves a destinct halo. It's like a mass 
spectrometer read out, each peak, halo, is a trasition in the decay 
sequence.  I just remembered who's got my copy of Gentries book, Dad 
borrowed it, so I'll see if I can  get it back and check it for you.

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Subject: Re: OffTopic: Lust and the bible
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Good site you've found Harry but way way off topic I'll take hours to 
check it out. The excerpt page below while technically correct it still 
needs work. The ‘who are we’ page of the site worries me a little. 
They've never been on a good theological collage campus it seems.
I can answer the first 7 questions but as it notes a quick answer may 
not be a correct one. Remember the words have changed meaning over time 
and its unwise to ascribe modern meanings to biblical words. The Hebrew 
in genesis indicates desire without greed. With Sin entering the picture 
harmless desire became potentially selfish and thus harmful lusts. 
That's why God made cloths for them.
The authors of this site aren't making the case why sex with strangers 
is bad. They just say its bad and I think thats hazardous in this age. 
VD and family conflict is the reason for the rules. A good book to read is:
None of these diseases The Bible’s health secrets for the 21st century 
by S.I. McMillen, MD & David E Stern, MD.
Morality is not arbitrary it is precautionary.
Harry Veeder wrote:

>
> from
> http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/covet.html
>
> To Covet and Lust can be Good, not Evil
> ------------------------------------------------
> Let¹s begin with a quiz of the following questions:
>
>
> 1. Can a Christian lust and still be qualified to enter into the 
> Kingdom of God?
> 2. Can a man or a woman lust for their mate, yet without sin?
> 3. Is lusting a sin?
> 4. Do you really know the difference between lust and desire?
> 5. If you lust for something, would your Maker grant it to you?
> 6. If you caught yourself lusting should you repent of it?
> 7. Does God, Christ, and all the holy angels ever lust? Those who are 
> spirit beings, those who are Holy, perfect, and righteous?
>
>
> Don¹t be too quick to answer. Remember, all of our background came 
> from our parents, culture, and our society.
>
>
> God condemns the use of any thing, any thought, and any attitude that 
> is harmful to you or your neighbor. But he will never condemn the 
> right use of any good thing that he himself has created. Remember what 
> God said about all those things he created? "It was very good" 
> (Genesis 1:31). He didn¹t say it was bad, not a mixture of truth and 
> error, but very good.
>
>
> "Covet" and "Lust" are Neutral Words
>
> The adversary has deceived men into believing that sex, lust, 
> coveting, pleasure, sensuality, and feeling good is evil; yet, when 
> God created all things he said "it was very good" (Genesis 1:31 ). Who 
> are you going to believe? Christians desire, lust for, and covet after 
> the Knowledge and Wisdom of God, which is good. Sensuality, like lust, 
> is purely neutral. What you do with it determines whether you sin or 
> not. Sex with strangers is not good, but sex with your spouse is. 
> There is nothing wrong with lusting. Do you lust for your wife, or do 
> you lust for somebody else¹s wife? This is the point. The Law does not 
> say, "Do not covet", it says do not covet anything that belongs to 
> somebody else (Exodus 20:17).
>
>
> Your arch enemy would always like you to blur the difference and 
> remove the boundaries between the holy and the profane, between the 
> light and darkness. That¹s why the Creator told Adam and Eve to eat of 
> every tree that is in the garden, except of the tree of the knowledge 
> of good and evil! You see, if someone gives you a glass of pure 
> crystal clear sweet water, that¹s good. But if you put a few drops of 
> poison into it, that¹s bad. And the bad makes the whole thing bad. And 
> therefore the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is all bad, 
> because poison will kill you, it takes time. Good and evil is not 
> good, it is sinful. And therefore, to have a morality that is a 
> mixture of good and evil is a sinful morality.
>
>
> That¹s why we are studying the Word of God, because we are admitting 
> that we are not clean, pure, righteous, perfect, but we want to be. 
> And so we should not be offended at the words of God when they simply 
> be contrary to what we think.
>
>
> Positive examples in Scripture
>
> In the Hebrew, "lust" (#08378 ta'avah & #0183 'avah) is defined as "to 
> desire eagerly, to long for, to wish, to crave, to covet, to yearn, to 
> be eager to, to have an appetite for." Lust could be used rightly or 
> wrongly. By itself it is neutral. Whether lust is good or bad should 
> be determined only by your Maker, and not by mere, fallible, mortal 
> man, who doesn¹t even have a clean mind!
>
>
> Positive examples of "lust" in the Bible are:
>
>
> * Deuteronomy 14:26 (lusteth) where God commanded the Israelites to 
> turn the tithes into money and spend it on whatever their soul lusts for;
> * Psalm 21:2 (desire) where God satisfies your lusts if they are good 
> and right for you;
> * Psalm 132:13 (desired) where the Lord himself lusted Zion for his 
> habitation;
> * Proverbs 10:24 (desire) where the lust of the righteous shall be 
> granted;
> * Proverbs 11:23 (desire) where the lust of the righteous is good, and 
> this is in contrast to the lust of the wicked;
> * Proverbs 13:12 (desire) where lust will earn you the "tree of life", 
> and not eternal torment in the lake of fire, as many Christians teach 
> today; and
> * Isaiah 26:8 (desire) where the lust of our soul is to God¹s name.
>
>
> In the Hebrew, the word "covet" (word # 02530 chamad) is defined as 
> "to desire, lustful, be carnally excited (speaking about the physical 
> aspect of it; like how a little babe gets excited at a toy. This is 
> referring to the pure carnal excitement, not the impure), pleasant, 
> charming, beloved, lovely, delightful, desirable, precious, pretty, 
> grateful, cute, darling, dainty, delectable", and it also means 
> "greed, avarice, grasping, envious". The majority of the concept "to 
> covet" is positive, not negative.
>
>
> Positive examples of "covetous" in the bible are:
>
> * Genesis 2:9 (pleasant) where, in the Garden of Eden, the LORD God 
> made to grow every tree that is covetous to the sight,
> * Psalm 19:7-10 (desired) where the Law of the Lord is to be coveted 
> after,
> * Psalm 68:16 (desireth) where God Himself covets us to dwell in the 
> hill of God,
> * Proverbs 21:20 (desired) where the wise will covet treasure,
> * Matthew 13:17 (desired) where the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven 
> have been coveted after by many prophets and righteous men,
> * Luke 16:20-21 (desiring) where a beggar coveted to be fed,
> * Luke 17:22 (desire) where Christ told his disciples they would covet 
> to see one of the days of the Son of man,
> * Luke 22:15 (desired) where Christ Jesus coveted to eat the passover 
> with His disciples,
> * 1 Timothy 3:1 (desireth) where if a man covets after the office of a 
> bishop, he desires a good work.
> * 1 Corinthians 12:31 (covet) where believers are commanded to covet 
> earnestly the best spiritual gifts,
> * 1 Corinthians 12:31 (covet) where brethren are commanded to covet to 
> prophesy,
> * Hebrews 6:11 (desire) where we covet after others to show diligence, 
> and
> * 1 Peter 1:12 (desire) where angels covet after the things of God.
> You can covet the Law of God, and desire Jesus Christ. But, when your 
> mind becomes defiled, then everything becomes defiled. You can desire 
> the right thing, or you can desire the wrong thing.
>
>
> The term "lust" appears 107 times in the Bible (54 times in the OT, 53 
> times in the NT). 35 cases in the Old Testament it is used to describe 
> positive aspects, and in 19 cases it is spoken in the negative. The 
> term "covet" appears 81 times in the Bible (65 times in the OT, 16 
> times in the NT). Lusting and coveting are synonymous in both the 
> Hebrew and the Greek (word #1937 epithumeo). The words "covet" and 
> "lust" are used most often in the positive than in the negative. *Only 
> the context can tell you which way it goes. *

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Subject: Re: Trapped Light Cold Fusion?
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Not exactly what I had in mind for CF,but not a baqd idea.

http://www.military.com/soldiertech/0,14632,Soldiertech_ABL,,00.html

"REACH OUT AND FRY SOMEONE: The Airborne Laser "

Fred
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Frederick Sparber 
To: vortex-l
Sent: 12/10/2005 5:04:43 AM 
Subject: Re: Trapped Light Cold Fusion?


The "Stimulated Brillouin Scattering" SBS article makes note that
water due to it's conductivity isn't as good a candidate as the insulating liquids
using the laser (photon) wavelengths.

http://www.nat.vu.nl/atom/thesis-iavor.pdf

OTOH, if the CF reaction, D-D ---> He-4 + "phonon-trapped" gammas(1 to 2 Mev totaling 24 Mev )
with wavelengths comparable to the electrons create phonon vibrations in D2O
the lack of detectable external gammas is explained.

IOW, prime the pump with UV or laser photons to get things started.

Fred
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Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

<HTML style="FONT-SIZE: x-small; FONT-FAMILY: MS Sans Serif"><HEAD>
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2769" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Not exactly what I had in mind for CF,but not a baqd idea.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://www.military.com/soldiertech/0,14632,Soldiertech_ABL,,00.html">http://www.military.com/soldiertech/0,14632,Soldiertech_ABL,,00.html</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3>"REACH OUT AND FRY SOMEONE: The Airborne Laser</FONT></STRONG> "</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Fred</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=fjsparber earthlink.net href="mailto:fjsparber@earthlink.net">Frederick Sparber</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To: </B><A title=vortex-l eskimo.com href="mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com">vortex-l</A></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> 12/10/2005 5:04:43 AM </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Trapped Light Cold Fusion?</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><FONT size=2><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>
<DIV>The "Stimulated Brillouin Scattering" SBS article makes note that</DIV>
<DIV>water due to it's conductivity isn't as good a candidate as the insulating liquids</DIV>
<DIV>using the laser (photon) wavelengths.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://www.nat.vu.nl/atom/thesis-iavor.pdf">http://www.nat.vu.nl/atom/thesis-iavor.pdf</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>OTOH, if the CF reaction, D-D ---&gt; He-4 + "phonon-trapped" gammas(1 to 2 Mev totaling 24 Mev )</DIV>
<DIV>with wavelengths comparable to the electrons create phonon vibrations in D2O</DIV>
<DIV>the lack of detectable external gammas is explained.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>IOW, prime the pump with UV or laser photons to get things started.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Fred</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8--


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 10 05:59:37 2005
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Jed Rothwell wrote:

> OrionWorks wrote:
>
>> This post is primarily directed to both Jed, Steven Krivit,
>>
>> Jed, in the past you have lamented the fact that you feared CF 
>> research may be dieing a slow death, particularly due to what you 
>> have perceived is a lack of necessary infusion of young scientists 
>> into this risky & controversial field. IOW, at present dabbling in CF 
>> may be considered, professionally speaking, too risky a step for most 
>> career oriented scientists to seriously consider.
>>
>> Never the less, the latest posts (and supplied links) by Jed and 
>> Steve seem to indicate a number of interesting results derived from 
>> ICCF12.
>
>
> There has been progress and there are promising new results. On the 
> other hand, I did not see any young people at the conference. All the 
> presenters have attended previous conferences and presented similar 
> results. Over the past year, several more researchers retired or died. 
> The field still seems be drifting inexorably toward extinction, simply 
> because people grow old and die. From the beginning, cold fusion 
> supporters have been older than those who attack the field.

The 2000 dollar air fair on top of the conferrence fees stopped me. And 
I'm nearly a younger CF researcher. I have about a dozen younger people 
in my network that are listening but they to don't know how to go from 
being a CF watcher to being a CF doer.  We need entry level CF 
experiments and  some way to link newer people up to the older teams to 
train up the pool of understudies.

>
> There has been no change in the political situation. Journals such as 
> Nature and Scientific American still attack cold fusion as viciously 
> as ever. The 2004 Department of Energy review had no effect. As far as 
> I know cold fusion is still too risky for a career oriented scientist, 
> or indeed any any scientist or businessman who is not retired or 
> independently wealthy. Perhaps something is happening behind the 
> scenes, but I would not know about that. Frankly, all of the secret 
> research projects that have come to light so far have been 
> unimpressive. I do not think this research can thrive in secret, but 
> only in an open academic environment in which results are shared and 
> experiments subject to open criticism and peer review.

Australia is having a big fight about nuclear waste disposal sites and 
power reactors. I think I might put in a submission about the Lenr 
nuclear waste disposal option.
I've just got a reply from two ministers, or their advisors, on my 
previous enquries indicating complete ignorance on lenr. That's not 
opposition! It seems they haven't even heard the argument againts CF.  
In such ignorance glows a glimmer of hope. If they don't know there's a 
fight they may listen long enough to hear the truth. I need to be able 
to hand them copies of the papers not references. And I need a proof 
read submission. I also need a new suit I suspect. Wish me luck. Which 
Papers would you suggest?

>
> - Jed
>
>

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Subject: Re: Trapped Light Cold Fusion?
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Fred - interesting observation - even without a plasma...

(and even for those like myself who are on a brain transplant 
waiting list ;-)

Stimulated Brillouin Scattering is possibly active in the context 
of the Letts/Cravens and other experiments recently mentioned 
where lasers are used. However, one suspects that the effect would 
have been much greater had terahertz lasers been available to them 
and at signigicantly higher power.

Stimulated Brillouin scattering (SBS) in a plasma is said to be 
due to the interaction of an electromagnetic wave and an ion 
acoustic wave (Alfren wave). And one must suspect the same thing 
is going-on in condensed matter to the degree that the laser light 
can penetrate the material (a few microns). Ther penetration depth 
for terahertz, for comparison purposes, is many cm and it can be 
identical in lamda to the phonon frequency.

A loaded D-matrix is comparable to a large number of subnanometer 
"chambers" and laser light will certainly penetrate the surface - 
which is hte active area anyway, but a terahertz coherent light 
source (can be a diode and not a laser) would seem to be ideal. 
Too bad they are not commonly available.

SBS is identified by a characteristic "frequency shift"  according 
to the literature.
http://tempest.das.ucdavis.edu/mpi/SBS/SBS.html
"Here we report the first observations of SBS in microwave 
interaction with plasma, finding not only the frequency downshift 
in the reflected wave, but directly measuring the wavelength of 
the ion acoustic fluctuation. An interesting feature of these 
experiments is that a small chamber reflectivity sets up ion 
fluctuations which then serve as an enhanced noise level for the 
initiation of the SBS. After an initial fast growth time, we find 
the SBS reflectivity growth rate to agree with the classical 
calculations."

When I read the part about "downshifting," it occured to me why 
the Mills microwave experiment is so effective even thought they 
are using a conventional oven power supply at 2.45 GHz which is 
higher than the hydrogen resonance at 1.4 and not a "precise" 
harmonic. Perhaps the "Evenson cavity" has the effect of 
downshifting this to precise hydrogen resonance.

BTW these chambers are nice - if they weren't the price of a good 
used car:
http://www.e-opthos.com/cavities.htm



----- Original Message ----- 
From: Frederick Sparber      Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2005 
2:00 AM
Subject: Re: Trapped Light Cold Fusion?


For those not on a brain transplant waiting list (for honing their 
OFF TOPIC skills)
here is a 140 page pdf thesis that touches on the 1964 Garmire and 
Townes experiment
that converted laser/maser light into intense sound waves in 
liquids and solids.
"Stimulated Brillouin Scattering" SBS.

http://www.nat.vu.nl/atom/thesis-iavor.pdf

Germane to the Chubbs' phonon-phonon-light effects seen in the CF 
experiments.

Fred

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Frederick Sparber
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Sent: 12/10/2005 1:06:59 AM
Subject: Re: Trapped Light Cold Fusion?


Taking a cue from the Chubb phonon theory plus experiments that
seem to support it, surrounding a UV fluorescent tube with D2O in
a reflective metal cavity  might effect CF if the energy density 
is sufficient.

Ed Storms has/had one of these (4 watt) in an Eprom 254 nanometer 
uv eraser unit that I sent
him several years ago.
The deuteron density in D2O is greater than it is in deuterium- 
palladium.

Fred 

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Bravissimo, Sig. Krivit!!

-----Original Message-----
From: Steven Krivit

1.    Can a Christian lust and still be qualified to enter into the 
Kingdom of God?

1. Yes, if he figures out how to make cold fusion work while he is on 
earth.
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http://www.dynamotive.com/news/newsreleases/051121.html

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Jones- Note that quartz crystals shattered when the laser built up
the acoustic energy. What pressures in a liquid?
>
> Fred - interesting observation - even without a plasma...
>
> (and even for those like myself who are on a brain transplant 
> waiting list ;-) 
>
Don't accept one that comes from the Lone Star State,unless you want to be
President. :-)
> 
> Stimulated Brillouin Scattering is possibly active in the context 
> of the Letts/Cravens and other experiments recently mentioned 
> where lasers are used. However, one suspects that the effect would 
> have been much greater had terahertz lasers been available to them 
> and at signigicantly higher power.
>
A few watts of UV in a few cubic centimeter fluorescent bulb in a reflective
cavity might do. If the CF gammas (> 10^20 Hz) set up phonon vibrations as
suspected, high power pumping may not be required.
>
> Stimulated Brillouin scattering (SBS) in a plasma is said to be 
> due to the interaction of an electromagnetic wave and an ion 
> acoustic wave (Alfren wave). And one must suspect the same thing 
> is going-on in condensed matter to the degree that the laser light 
> can penetrate the material (a few microns). Ther penetration depth 
> for terahertz, for comparison purposes, is many cm and it can be 
> identical in lamda to the phonon frequency.
>
Water works very well as "condensed matter"as evidenced by the thesis'
claim for 3rd harmonic uv. Evidently penetration depth isn't a problem..
>
> A loaded D-matrix is comparable to a large number of subnanometer 
> "chambers" and laser light will certainly penetrate the surface - 
> which is hte active area anyway, but a terahertz coherent light 
> source (can be a diode and not a laser) would seem to be ideal. 
> Too bad they are not commonly available.
>
> SBS is identified by a characteristic "frequency shift"  according 
> to the literature.
> http://tempest.das.ucdavis.edu/mpi/SBS/SBS.html

The thesis http://www.nat.vu.nl/atom/thesis-iavor.pdf

covers the mechanism very well.

Fred



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Some surprises on UV-EUV transmittance here, Jones.


http://www.luxel.com/transmitt.htm

And:

http://www.luxel.com/std_fil_trans.htm

Fred
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<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Some surprises on UV-EUV transmittance here, Jones.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2><A href="http://www.luxel.com/transmitt.htm">http://www.luxel.com/transmitt.htm</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>And:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://www.luxel.com/std_fil_trans.htm">http://www.luxel.com/std_fil_trans.htm</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Fred</DIV></BODY></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 10 12:45:32 2005
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Subject: Re: OffTopic: Lust and the bible
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Wesley Bruce" <wesleybruce iinet.net.au>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2005 8:26 AM
Subject: Re: OffTopic: Lust and the bible



> The authors of this site aren't making the case why sex with strangers
> is bad. They just say its bad and I think thats hazardous in this age.
> VD and family conflict is the reason for the rules.

 It is interesting to note that the Bible does not state the above mentioned
reasons for avoiding adultry and fornication.
The only reason I can find is written by Paul in the NT when he points out
that we become "one flesh" with the people we have sex with just as a
husband and wife become one flesh.

That made me consider the concept of a "sexual network index".  One's index
number can be calculated by first adding up all the sex partners one has had
and then, considering each of those partners one by one, add all of the
people they have had sex with prior.  The addition process is carried on
step by step back through history until complete. Unfortunately the
calculation process for many people soon breaks down to a form of gross
estimating leading to a situation where one has to place a collection of
zeros to the end of the calculated number.  For people who believe in a
6,000 year creation time table, a half dozen zeros is probably enough.  For
people believing the evolutionary time frame, another couple of zeros may be
in order.

The index concept allows one to appreciate the rampent expanse of
promiscuity, and the tremendous pools of common flesh that exist in the
world.

Jeff


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 10 13:15:06 2005
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Here is an interesting story about people converting
from using natural gas or electricity to burning
corn in specially designed stoves to heat their homes:

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/12/09/051209141924.flu6l9pn.html

Apparently the cost of burning the corn is about a third of 
that of natural gas for the same heat.  This raises some 
questions. Is the real cost of the corn reflected in the sale
price, or is it the result of government agricultural subsidies?
Does the raising of the corn use more fossil fuel energy than
the corn provides?  Is it "immoral" to burn food as fuel even
if it is animal feed?  And finally, why not grind up and 
pelletize the rest of the corn plant and therefore provide
even more energy?  The rest of the plant is usually just burnt
in the field.

M.






_______________________________________________
Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
The most personalized portal on the Web!


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revtec wrote:

> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Wesley Bruce" <wesleybruce iinet.net.au>
> To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2005 8:26 AM
> Subject: Re: OffTopic: Lust and the bible
> 
> 
> 
> 
>>The authors of this site aren't making the case why sex with strangers
>>is bad. They just say its bad and I think thats hazardous in this age.
>>VD and family conflict is the reason for the rules.
> 
> 
>  It is interesting to note that the Bible does not state the above mentioned
> reasons for avoiding adultry and fornication.
> The only reason I can find is written by Paul in the NT when he points out
> that we become "one flesh" with the people we have sex with just as a
> husband and wife become one flesh.

I admire your effort to calculate the size of the common flesh pool, 
which essentially makes us all brothers and sisters in sex. However, was 
Paul not using this concept as a quaint way to describe making a baby?

Ed
> 
> That made me consider the concept of a "sexual network index".  One's index
> number can be calculated by first adding up all the sex partners one has had
> and then, considering each of those partners one by one, add all of the
> people they have had sex with prior.  The addition process is carried on
> step by step back through history until complete. Unfortunately the
> calculation process for many people soon breaks down to a form of gross
> estimating leading to a situation where one has to place a collection of
> zeros to the end of the calculated number.  For people who believe in a
> 6,000 year creation time table, a half dozen zeros is probably enough.  For
> people believing the evolutionary time frame, another couple of zeros may be
> in order.
> 
> The index concept allows one to appreciate the rampent expanse of
> promiscuity, and the tremendous pools of common flesh that exist in the
> world.
> 
> Jeff
> 
> 
> 

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From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
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Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 18:14:25 EST
Subject: paper published corrected link
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-------------------------------1134256465
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A Unification of Quantum Physics and Special Relativity.
 
_http://www.wbabin.net/_ (http://www.wbabin.net/) 
 
enjoy
 
Frank Znidarsic

-------------------------------1134256465
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<DIV>A Unification of Quantum Physics and Special Relativity.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A href=3D"http://www.wbabin.net/">http://www.wbabin.net/</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>enjoy</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Frank Znidarsic</DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>

-------------------------------1134256465--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 10 15:15:56 2005
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Subject: Re: OffTopic: Lust and the bible
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Edmund Storms" <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2005 4:43 PM
Subject: Re: OffTopic: Lust and the bible


>> I admire your effort to calculate the size of the common flesh pool,
> which essentially makes us all brothers and sisters in sex. However, was
> Paul not using this concept as a quaint way to describe making a baby?
>
> Ed

I don't think so.  Here is the verse in New King James version: I Corinthian
6:16

Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her?
For "the two" He says, "shall become one flesh."

Jeff


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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "revtec" <revtec PTD.NET>
To: <michael.foster excite.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2005 4:30 PM
Subject: Re: Corn Burners


>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Michael Foster" <michael.foster excite.com>
> To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2005 4:13 PM
> Subject: Corn Burners
>
>
> >
> > Here is an interesting story about people converting
> > from using natural gas or electricity to burning
> > corn in specially designed stoves to heat their homes:
> >
> What does the smoke smell like.  The smell of burnt popcorn can make me
gag.
>
> Jeff
>


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 10 18:18:33 2005
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revtec wrote:

> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Edmund Storms" <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
> To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2005 4:43 PM
> Subject: Re: OffTopic: Lust and the bible
> 
> 
> 
>>>I admire your effort to calculate the size of the common flesh pool,
>>
>>which essentially makes us all brothers and sisters in sex. However, was
>>Paul not using this concept as a quaint way to describe making a baby?
>>
>>Ed
> 
> 
> I don't think so.  Here is the verse in New King James version: I Corinthian
> 6:16
> 
> Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her?
> For "the two" He says, "shall become one flesh."

We all know that we do not become literally one flesh when we have sex. 
We do not even join in any spiritual way. The act is simply the sharing 
of pleasure, except if a child results. The only time "one flesh" 
results is when love is present before the act.  Therefore, this way of 
describing the sex act must have a nonliteral meaning.  What do you 
think the nonliteral meaning might be?

Ed
> 
> Jeff
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 10 19:26:33 2005
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Yes, but as Fred points out here:

http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l eskimo.com/msg09329.html

you could be left out in the cold.

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Foster <michael.foster excite.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Sent: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 16:13:51 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Corn Burners

Here is an interesting story about people converting
from using natural gas or electricity to burning
corn in specially designed stoves to heat their homes:

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/12/09/051209141924.flu6l9pn.html
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Counter-intuitively water is quite transparent to UV with a peak of about 480 nm (visible blue-green)
at 600 meters depth in sea water.

It is also quite transparent to Near Infrared (780 nm- 1.6 eV  photons to 1400 nm- 0.9 eV photons) which
is the peak Infrared output range for a tungsten filament at ~2200 degrees K.

MAHG back from the shadows and running some OU on Stimulated Brillouin Scattering, Jones?    

Fred
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<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Counter-intuitively water is quite transparent to UV with a peak of about 480 nm (visible blue-green)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>at 600 meters depth in sea water.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>It is also quite transparent to Near Infrared (780 nm- 1.6 eV&nbsp; photons to 1400 nm- 0.9 eV photons) which</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>is the peak Infrared output range for a tungsten filament at ~2200 degrees K.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>MAHG back from the shadows and running&nbsp;some OU&nbsp;on Stimulated Brillouin Scattering, Jones?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Fred</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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Doesn't this suggest a thin film of Palladium deposited on a quartz slide electrically heated
to  about 1000 K immersed in D2O to get ~3000 nm-0.4 eV photon (~1.0e^14 Hz) Infrared?

Fred
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Frederick Sparber 
To: vortex-l
Sent: 12/11/2005 4:54:44 AM 
Subject: Re: Trapped Light Cold Fusion?


Counter-intuitively water is quite transparent to UV with a peak of about 480 nm (visible blue-green)
at 600 meters depth in sea water.

It is also quite transparent to Near Infrared (780 nm- 1.6 eV  photons to 1400 nm- 0.9 eV photons) which
is the peak Infrared output range for a tungsten filament at ~2200 degrees K.

MAHG back from the shadows and running some OU on Stimulated Brillouin Scattering, Jones?    

Fred
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<DIV>Doesn't this suggest a thin film of Palladium deposited on a quartz slide electrically heated</DIV>
<DIV>to&nbsp; about 1000 K immersed in D2O to get ~3000 nm-0.4 eV photon (~1.0e^14 Hz)&nbsp;Infrared?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Fred</DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=fjsparber earthlink.net href="mailto:fjsparber@earthlink.net">Frederick Sparber</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To: </B><A title=vortex-l eskimo.com href="mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com">vortex-l</A></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> 12/11/2005 4:54:44 AM </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Trapped Light Cold Fusion?</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><FONT size=2>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Counter-intuitively water is quite transparent to UV with a peak of about 480 nm (visible blue-green)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>at 600 meters depth in sea water.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>It is also quite transparent to Near Infrared (780 nm- 1.6 eV&nbsp; photons to 1400 nm- 0.9 eV photons) which</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>is the peak Infrared output range for a tungsten filament at ~2200 degrees K.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>MAHG back from the shadows and running&nbsp;some OU&nbsp;on Stimulated Brillouin Scattering, Jones?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Fred</FONT></DIV></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 11 07:36:29 2005
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From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
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--- Frederick Sparber  wrote:

> Doesn't this suggest a thin film of Palladium
> deposited on a quartz slide electrically heated
> to  about 1000 K immersed in D2O to get ~3000 nm-0.4
> eV photon (~1.0e^14 Hz) Infrared?

Sounds like the "rosy" glow of a Mizuno experiment...

> MAHG back from the shadows and running some OU on
> Stimulated Brillouin Scattering, Jones?    

IF they should ever decide to face up to the power
measurement problems, and If the MAHG is still OU then
we should should take another look at that
"downshifted" microwave component, due to collisonal
frequency of the dense plasma, which we talked about
earlier? Maybe there is an Alfren wave too?

"Alfven Waves May Illuminate Solar Mysteries"
third story down:
http://unisci.com/stories/20014/1029016.htm

Jones

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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
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 I think a 5 to 10 mil diameter Pt wire (63.8 ohms/circular mil-foot 0.003
temp coefficient, 
10.6 micro-ohm cm) working temp 1200 C, MP 1720 C) pulsed with 12 volts
D.C. (or Pd?)
 immersed in H2O or D2O might create "cavitation-type" collapsing bubbles
as well as Stimulated
Brillouin Scattering (SBS) in the water.
Several years ago I tested some Pd-Jacketed-Aluminum wire electrical fuses
(for space application) 
that the vendor claimed to have an exothermic reaction forming a Pd-Al
compound at their blow current
to interupt the circuit. 

I tested a bunch of them 100% above their blow current at a few microns
pressure to 
exclude O2 and they glowed like light bulbs for weeks. 
  
Fred

Jones Beene wrote,
>
>
> --- Frederick Sparber  wrote:
>
> > Doesn't this suggest a thin film of Palladium
> > deposited on a quartz slide electrically heated
> > to  about 1000 K immersed in D2O to get ~3000 nm-0.4
> > eV photon (~1.0e^14 Hz) Infrared?
>
> Sounds like the "rosy" glow of a Mizuno experiment...
>
> > MAHG back from the shadows and running some OU on
> > Stimulated Brillouin Scattering, Jones?    
>
> IF they should ever decide to face up to the power
> measurement problems, and If the MAHG is still OU then
> we should should take another look at that
> "downshifted" microwave component, due to collisonal
> frequency of the dense plasma, which we talked about
> earlier? Maybe there is an Alfren wave too?
>
> "Alfven Waves May Illuminate Solar Mysteries"
> third story down:
> http://unisci.com/stories/20014/1029016.htm
>
> Jones



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Subject: Re: OffTopic: Lust and the bible
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 20:09:59 -0500
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Edmund Storms" <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2005 9:17 PM
Subject: Re: OffTopic: Lust and the bible


>
>
> revtec wrote:
>
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Edmund Storms" <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
> > To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> > Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2005 4:43 PM
> > Subject: Re: OffTopic: Lust and the bible
> >
> >
> >
> >>>I admire your effort to calculate the size of the common flesh pool,
> >>
> >>which essentially makes us all brothers and sisters in sex. However, was
> >>Paul not using this concept as a quaint way to describe making a baby?
> >>
> >>Ed
> >
> >
> > I don't think so.  Here is the verse in New King James version: I
Corinthian
> > 6:16
> >
> > Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with
her?
> > For "the two" He says, "shall become one flesh."
>
> We all know that we do not become literally one flesh when we have sex.
> We do not even join in any spiritual way. The act is simply the sharing
> of pleasure, except if a child results. The only time "one flesh"
> results is when love is present before the act.  Therefore, this way of
> describing the sex act must have a nonliteral meaning.  What do you
> think the nonliteral meaning might be?

The idea of becoming one flesh with every sex partner you ever had, in
addition to being one flesh with your wife, is perhaps just a way for Paul
to help us visualize how bad he thinks it is to have sex outside of
marriage.  However, is it not possible or even likely that casual sex can
have harmful effects on a person at three levels: physical, mental and
spiritual.

In the context of verses 9 to the end of the chapter, it is a disgrace to
us, and dishonoring to God, to conduct ourselves in a promiscuous way.  We
must keep in mind that Paul is addressing believers who have accepted Jesus'
sacrifice on the cross as the full penalty paid for their crimes against
God.  For us to continue in that behavior after being saved is, to say the
least, not good.

Jeff


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At 08:09 pm 11/12/2005 -0500, Jeff wrote:

>The idea of becoming one flesh with every sex partner you ever had, in
>addition to being one flesh with your wife, is perhaps just a way for Paul
>to help us visualize how bad he thinks it is to have sex outside of
>marriage.  However, is it not possible or even likely that casual sex can
>have harmful effects on a person at three levels: physical, mental and
>spiritual.
>
>In the context of verses 9 to the end of the chapter, it is a disgrace to
>us, and dishonoring to God, to conduct ourselves in a promiscuous way.  We
>must keep in mind that Paul is addressing believers who have accepted Jesus'
>sacrifice on the cross as the full penalty paid for their crimes against
>God.  For us to continue in that behavior after being saved is, to say the
>least, not good.
>
>Jeff


I couldn't have put it better myself, Jeff.  8-)

Frank

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Edmund Storms wrote:

>
>
> revtec wrote:
>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Edmund Storms" 
>> <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
>> To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
>> Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2005 4:43 PM
>> Subject: Re: OffTopic: Lust and the bible
>>
>>
>>
>>>> I admire your effort to calculate the size of the common flesh pool,
>>>
>>>
>>> which essentially makes us all brothers and sisters in sex. However, 
>>> was
>>> Paul not using this concept as a quaint way to describe making a baby?
>>>
>>> Ed
>>
>>
>>
>> I don't think so.  Here is the verse in New King James version: I 
>> Corinthian
>> 6:16
>>
>> Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with 
>> her?
>> For "the two" He says, "shall become one flesh."
>
>
> We all know that we do not become literally one flesh when we have 
> sex. We do not even join in any spiritual way. The act is simply the 
> sharing of pleasure, except if a child results. The only time "one 
> flesh" results is when love is present before the act.  Therefore, 
> this way of describing the sex act must have a nonliteral meaning.  
> What do you think the nonliteral meaning might be?

Keep in mind that "transubstantiation" of the mass was accepted as real 
among the early Christians.  Similarly, your 21st century notion that 
there is no physical alteration of the flesh of the partners either  as 
a result of intercourse or as a result of undergoing the marriage 
ceremony should be viewed as anachronistic when attempting to interpret 
the words of Paul.

Furthermore, you must be a little careful when reading what Paul had to 
say about sex.  It's been a while since I went through those sections of 
the Bible with any care, but as I recall Paul is a big-time prude and 
appeared to have some major hangups in the area.  I would hesitate a 
long time before I'd rule out an interpretation of what he had to say on 
the grounds that it doesn't sound reasonable!

Specifically, IIRC, he says (in one of the early, undisputed letters) 
that you should avoid sex entirely if possible.  But, he goes on, if, 
unlike Paul himself (!!), you find that difficult, you should take the 
next-best choice and get married so you can have an outlet for your 
passions.  He's not, as I recall, totally judgmental about it but his 
POV doesn't seem quite normal to me.

With that said, I don't think he was telling folks not to fornicate 
because it makes illegitimate babies, any more than he was telling men 
not to have sex with men for that reason.  And as to his statement that 
we "become one flesh", he took it as "really symbolically true" AFAICT 
which is to say it meant _something_ of importance to him, but what it 
means isn't exactly clear!  Note well that this same line is quoted 
someplace or other in support of the notion that divorce should not be 
allowed.



>
> Ed
>
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>>
>>
>
>

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Harry Veeder wrote:

>
> from
> http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/covet.html
>
> To Covet and Lust can be Good, not Evil
> ------------------------------------------------
> Let¹s begin with a quiz of the following questions:
>
>
> 1.    Can a Christian lust and still be qualified to enter into the 
> Kingdom of God?

Yes but only if you buy an indulgence, or, if you can't afford that, 
make a novena.

Otherwise, you'll need to do some purgatory time, but after that you're 
cleared for takeoff on the runway to Heaven.

> 2.    Can a man or a woman lust for their mate, yet without sin?

Who's without sin, anyway?  You can't do _anything_ without sin, it's 
original equipment, comes from the manufacturer pre-installed.

> 3.    Is lusting a sin?

> 4.    Do you really know the difference between lust and desire?
> 5.    If you lust for something, would your Maker grant it to you?
> 6.    If you caught yourself lusting should you repent of it?
> 7.    Does God, Christ, and all the holy angels ever lust? Those who 
> are spirit beings, those who are Holy, perfect, and righteous?


Regarding (7.): Yes, of course, angels do.  See Genesis 6:1-4 for more info.

But that's a very concise treatment of the story.  For a longer and more 
explicit version see 1 Enoch 6-7, followed by additional references 
throughout the following chapters up to 1 Enoch 71.  (1 Enoch is an 
early first century Jewish work which appears to have been treated as 
... um, well, gospel, I guess you'd call it ... by many in the early 
Church, certainly including St. Jude, who quotes from it, and possibly 
including Paul himself.  It was considered a sacred book by the 
Christian church in Ethiopia for centuries.)

For a bit more on Satan/Lucipher and his feelings in various matters see 
the Life of Adam and Eve 12-16.  He's apparently a very emotional guy, 
and quite proud, and feels he really got shafted by God.  (LoA&E is also 
a 1st century work, which incorporates longstanding traditions 
surrounding the events in the Bible.)

And who, by the way, ever said angels are "perfect"?

>
> Don¹t be too quick to answer. Remember, all of our background came 
> from our parents, culture, and our society.

Well, duh, you're asking questions about our culture here, I'd hope the 
background which we need to answer them would come from the culture itself!

Take yourself out of our culture and into some other where "lust" and 
"sin" aren't all tangled up together and where "Christ" is just a word 
with no meaning and nobody's ever heard parables about the "Kingdom of 
Heaven", and you'll have trouble even understanding what those questions 
are supposed to mean.

>
>
> God condemns the use of any thing, any thought, and any attitude that 
> is harmful to you or your neighbor. But he will never condemn the 
> right use of any good thing that he himself has created. Remember what 
> God said about all those things he created? "It was very good" 
> (Genesis 1:31). He didn¹t say it was bad, not a mixture of truth and 
> error, but very good.
>
>
> "Covet" and "Lust" are Neutral Words
>
> The adversary has deceived men into believing that sex, lust, 
> coveting, pleasure, sensuality, and feeling good is evil; yet, when 
> God created all things he said "it was very good" (Genesis 1:31 ). Who 
> are you going to believe? Christians desire, lust for, and covet after 
> the Knowledge and Wisdom of God, which is good. Sensuality, like lust, 
> is purely neutral. What you do with it determines whether you sin or 
> not. Sex with strangers is not good, but sex with your spouse is. 
> There is nothing wrong with lusting. Do you lust for your wife, or do 
> you lust for somebody else¹s wife? This is the point. The Law does not 
> say, "Do not covet", it says do not covet anything that belongs to 
> somebody else (Exodus 20:17).
>
>
> Your arch enemy would always like you to blur the difference and 
> remove the boundaries between the holy and the profane, between the 
> light and darkness. That¹s why the Creator told Adam and Eve to eat of 
> every tree that is in the garden, except of the tree of the knowledge 
> of good and evil! You see, if someone gives you a glass of pure 
> crystal clear sweet water, that¹s good. But if you put a few drops of 
> poison into it, that¹s bad. And the bad makes the whole thing bad. And 
> therefore the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is all bad, 
> because poison will kill you, it takes time. Good and evil is not 
> good, it is sinful. And therefore, to have a morality that is a 
> mixture of good and evil is a sinful morality.
>
>
> That¹s why we are studying the Word of God, because we are admitting 
> that we are not clean, pure, righteous, perfect, but we want to be. 
> And so we should not be offended at the words of God when they simply 
> be contrary to what we think.
>
>
> Positive examples in Scripture
>
> In the Hebrew, "lust" (#08378 ta'avah & #0183 'avah) is defined as "to 
> desire eagerly, to long for, to wish, to crave, to covet, to yearn, to 
> be eager to, to have an appetite for." Lust could be used rightly or 
> wrongly. By itself it is neutral. Whether lust is good or bad should 
> be determined only by your Maker, and not by mere, fallible, mortal 
> man, who doesn¹t even have a clean mind!
>
>
> Positive examples of "lust" in the Bible are:
>
>
> *    Deuteronomy 14:26 (lusteth) where God commanded the Israelites to 
> turn the tithes into money and spend it on whatever their soul lusts for;
> *    Psalm 21:2 (desire) where God satisfies your lusts if they are 
> good and right for you;
> *    Psalm 132:13 (desired) where the Lord himself lusted Zion for his 
> habitation;
> *    Proverbs 10:24 (desire) where the lust of the righteous shall be 
> granted;
> *    Proverbs 11:23 (desire) where the lust of the righteous is good, 
> and this is in contrast to the lust of the wicked;
> *    Proverbs 13:12 (desire) where lust will earn you the "tree of 
> life", and not eternal torment in the lake of fire, as many Christians 
> teach today; and
> *    Isaiah 26:8 (desire) where the lust of our soul is to God¹s name.
>
>
> In the Hebrew, the word "covet" (word # 02530 chamad) is defined as 
> "to desire, lustful, be carnally excited (speaking about the physical 
> aspect of it; like how a little babe gets excited at a toy. This is 
> referring to the pure carnal excitement, not the impure), pleasant, 
> charming, beloved, lovely, delightful, desirable, precious, pretty, 
> grateful, cute, darling, dainty, delectable", and it also means 
> "greed, avarice, grasping, envious". The majority of the concept "to 
> covet" is positive, not negative.
>
>
> Positive examples of "covetous" in the bible are:
>
> *    Genesis 2:9 (pleasant) where, in the Garden of Eden, the LORD God 
> made to grow every tree that is covetous to the sight,
> *    Psalm 19:7-10 (desired) where the Law of the Lord is to be 
> coveted after,
> *    Psalm 68:16 (desireth) where God Himself covets us to dwell in 
> the hill of God,
> *    Proverbs 21:20 (desired) where the wise will covet treasure,
> *    Matthew 13:17 (desired) where the mysteries of the kingdom of 
> heaven have been coveted after by many prophets and righteous men,
> *    Luke 16:20-21 (desiring) where a beggar coveted to be fed,
> *    Luke 17:22 (desire) where Christ told his disciples they would 
> covet to see one of the days of the Son of man,
> *    Luke 22:15 (desired) where Christ Jesus coveted to eat the 
> passover with His disciples,
> *    1 Timothy 3:1 (desireth) where if a man covets after the office 
> of a bishop, he desires a good work.
> *    1 Corinthians 12:31 (covet) where believers are commanded to 
> covet earnestly the best spiritual gifts,
> *    1 Corinthians 12:31 (covet) where brethren are commanded to covet 
> to prophesy,
> *    Hebrews 6:11 (desire) where we covet after others to show 
> diligence, and
> *    1 Peter 1:12 (desire) where angels covet after the things of God.
> You can covet the Law of God, and desire Jesus Christ. But, when your 
> mind becomes defiled, then everything becomes defiled. You can desire 
> the right thing, or you can desire the wrong thing.
>
>
> The term "lust" appears 107 times in the Bible (54 times in the OT, 53 
> times in the NT). 35 cases in the Old Testament it is used to describe 
> positive aspects, and in 19 cases it is spoken in the negative. The 
> term "covet" appears 81 times in the Bible (65 times in the OT, 16 
> times in the NT). Lusting and coveting are synonymous in both the 
> Hebrew and the Greek (word #1937 epithumeo). The words "covet" and 
> "lust" are used most often in the positive than in the negative. *Only 
> the context can tell you which way it goes. *

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At 10:21 pm 11/12/2005 -0500, Stephen wrote:

> Keep in mind that "transubstantiation" of the mass 
> was accepted as real among the early Christians.  

And still is by the vast majority of Christians 
(myself included) I am happy to say.     8-)

Frank Grimer

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Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 23:42:19 -0500
From: Harry Veeder <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: OffTopic: Lust and the bible
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> Edmund Storms wrote:
> 
>> 
>> 
>> revtec wrote:
>> 
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Edmund Storms"
>>> <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
>>> To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
>>> Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2005 4:43 PM
>>> Subject: Re: OffTopic: Lust and the bible
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with
>>> her?
>>> For "the two" He says, "shall become one flesh."
>> 
>> 
>> We all know that we do not become literally one flesh when we have
>> sex. We do not even join in any spiritual way. The act is simply the
>> sharing of pleasure, except if a child results. The only time "one
>> flesh" results is when love is present before the act.  Therefore,
>> this way of describing the sex act must have a nonliteral meaning.
>> What do you think the nonliteral meaning might be?


How about two become electrically one?

Harry

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Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 01:55:16 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy usfamily.net>
Subject: Re: polonium halos
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>I wrote:
>
>>Vortexians;
>>
>>I assume that the halos are caused by the decay of the 
>>radioneuclide in the zirconium crystal. I assume that there are 
>>multiple decays. Is the intensity of the halo determined by the 
>>number of decays? Is there some way to determine the number of 
>>decay events by it's intensity?

And Bruce Wesley replied;

>The sequece and the intensity are related and predicted by equations.

So based on the intensity of the halo we can understand the events 
which produced it.

>Each step of the decay sequence leaves a destinct halo.

It's a spherical phenomena?

>It's like a mass spectrometer read out, each peak, halo, is a 
>trasition in the decay sequence.  I just remembered who's got my 
>copy of Gentries book, Dad borrowed it, so I'll see if I can  get it 
>back and check it for you.

Send the title and author's name. If it has the sort of information 
that I'm looking for I'll purchase a copy.




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Photon and Phonon frequencies in the ZettaHz (10^21 Hz) and YottaHz (10^24 Hz) and
wavelengths down to Attometers (10^-18 meters) when looking at the frequency/wavelength
of gamma rays, quarks, and electrons.
Einstein (and others) throw in the atomic vibration frequency and energy in determining the specific
heat of matter. 
Diamond at 331 K has an "Einstein Temperature" of 1300 K  (which corresponds to
an infrared w3avelength of 11 microns)etc.

The Brillouin Effect allows Phonons (Sound Energy Quanta) to Beat/Heterdyne against
Photons (Light Energy Quanta) with the result that intermediate frequencies equal to the sum or difference
can be generated, and conversely, Photons can beat against Phonons with the same Beat/Heterdyne effect
(as originally proven by Garmire & Townes in 1964).

Does this imply a Hot Phonon Gas in H2O or D2O that doesn't necessarily show
up as a higher temperature?

Fred
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8
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<HTML><HEAD>
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2769" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Photon and Phonon frequencies in the ZettaHz (10^21 Hz) and YottaHz (10^24 Hz) and</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>wavelengths down to Attometers (10^-18 meters) when looking at the frequency/wavelength</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>of gamma rays, quarks, and electrons.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Einstein (and others) throw in the atomic vibration frequency and energy in determining the specific</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>heat of matter. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Diamond at 331 K has an "Einstein Temperature" of 1300 K&nbsp; (which corresponds to</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>an infrared w3avelength of 11 microns)etc.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>The Brillouin Effect allows Phonons (Sound Energy&nbsp;Quanta) to Beat/Heterdyne against</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Photons (Light Energy Quanta) with the result that intermediate frequencies equal to the sum or difference</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>can be generated, and conversely, Photons can beat against Phonons with the same Beat/Heterdyne effect</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>(as originally proven by Garmire &amp; Townes in 1964).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Does this imply a Hot Phonon Gas in H2O or D2O that doesn't necessarily show</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>up as a higher temperature?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Fred</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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Subject: Re: Einstein Frequency/Temperature & Photon-Phonon Heterodyne Action
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Next question, Jones. 

Do you think that the 254 nanometer (4.88 eV) UV from a 4 watt fluorescent
bulb (quartz) surrounded by D2O in a hole drilled in an Aluminum block
can vibrate Deuterons (4.51 eV  D-OD bond scission energy) enough to shake off Neutrons?
 
Fred

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Frederick Sparber 
To: vortex-l
Sent: 12/12/2005 5:04:09 AM 
Subject: Re: Einstein Frequency/Temperature & Photon-Phonon Heterodyne Action


Photon and Phonon frequencies in the ZettaHz (10^21 Hz) and YottaHz (10^24 Hz) and
wavelengths down to Attometers (10^-18 meters) when looking at the frequency/wavelength
of gamma rays, quarks, and electrons.
Einstein (and others) throw in the atomic vibration frequency and energy in determining the specific
heat of matter. 
Diamond at 331 K has an "Einstein Temperature" of 1300 K  (which corresponds to
an infrared w3avelength of 11 microns)etc.

The Brillouin Effect allows Phonons (Sound Energy Quanta) to Beat/Heterdyne against
Photons (Light Energy Quanta) with the result that intermediate frequencies equal to the sum or difference
can be generated, and conversely, Photons can beat against Phonons with the same Beat/Heterdyne effect
(as originally proven by Garmire & Townes in 1964).

Does this imply a Hot Phonon Gas in H2O or D2O that doesn't necessarily show
up as a higher temperature?

Fred
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8
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<HTML style="FONT-SIZE: x-small; FONT-FAMILY: MS Sans Serif"><HEAD>
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<BODY>
<DIV>
<DIV>Next question, Jones. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Do you think that the 254 nanometer (4.88 eV)&nbsp;UV from a 4 watt fluorescent</DIV>
<DIV>bulb&nbsp;(quartz) surrounded by D2O in a hole drilled in an Aluminum block</DIV>
<DIV>can vibrate Deuterons (4.51 eV&nbsp; D-OD bond scission energy) enough to shake off Neutrons?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Fred</DIV>
<DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=fjsparber earthlink.net href="mailto:fjsparber@earthlink.net">Frederick Sparber</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To: </B><A title=vortex-l eskimo.com href="mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com">vortex-l</A></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> 12/12/2005 5:04:09 AM </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Einstein Frequency/Temperature &amp; Photon-Phonon Heterodyne Action</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><FONT size=2>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Photon and Phonon frequencies in the ZettaHz (10^21 Hz) and YottaHz (10^24 Hz) and</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>wavelengths down to Attometers (10^-18 meters) when looking at the frequency/wavelength</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>of gamma rays, quarks, and electrons.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Einstein (and others) throw in the atomic vibration frequency and energy in determining the specific</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>heat of matter. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Diamond at 331 K has an "Einstein Temperature" of 1300 K&nbsp; (which corresponds to</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>an infrared w3avelength of 11 microns)etc.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>The Brillouin Effect allows Phonons (Sound Energy&nbsp;Quanta) to Beat/Heterdyne against</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Photons (Light Energy Quanta) with the result that intermediate frequencies equal to the sum or difference</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>can be generated, and conversely, Photons can beat against Phonons with the same Beat/Heterdyne effect</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>(as originally proven by Garmire &amp; Townes in 1964).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Does this imply a Hot Phonon Gas in H2O or D2O that doesn't necessarily show</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>up as a higher temperature?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Fred</FONT></DIV></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8--


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Subject: Re: Einstein Frequency/Temperature & Photon-Phonon Heterodyne Action
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Known-Measured Effects related to the Brillouin Effect:

Lamb Shift.

Raman Effect (Stokes and AntiStokes lines)..

Compton Effect.

This (Stimulated Brillouin Scattering) research covers a lot:

http://www.nat.vu.nl/atom/thesis-iavor.pdf

Fred

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Frederick Sparber 
To: vortex-l
Sent: 12/12/2005 6:10:14 AM 
Subject: Re: Einstein Frequency/Temperature & Photon-Phonon Heterodyne Action


Next question, Jones. 

Do you think that the 254 nanometer (4.88 eV) UV from a 4 watt fluorescent
bulb (quartz) surrounded by D2O in a hole drilled in an Aluminum block
can vibrate Deuterons (4.51 eV  D-OD bond scission energy) enough to shake off Neutrons?

Fred

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Frederick Sparber 
To: vortex-l
Sent: 12/12/2005 5:04:09 AM 
Subject: Re: Einstein Frequency/Temperature & Photon-Phonon Heterodyne Action


Photon and Phonon frequencies in the ZettaHz (10^21 Hz) and YottaHz (10^24 Hz) and
wavelengths down to Attometers (10^-18 meters) when looking at the frequency/wavelength
of gamma rays, quarks, and electrons.
Einstein (and others) throw in the atomic vibration frequency and energy in determining the specific
heat of matter. 
Diamond at 331 K has an "Einstein Temperature" of 1300 K  (which corresponds to
an infrared w3avelength of 11 microns)etc.

The Brillouin Effect allows Phonons (Sound Energy Quanta) to Beat/Heterdyne against
Photons (Light Energy Quanta) with the result that intermediate frequencies equal to the sum or difference
can be generated, and conversely, Photons can beat against Phonons with the same Beat/Heterdyne effect
(as originally proven by Garmire & Townes in 1964).

Does this imply a Hot Phonon Gas in H2O or D2O that doesn't necessarily show
up as a higher temperature?

Fred
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8
Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

<HTML style="FONT-SIZE: x-small; FONT-FAMILY: MS Sans Serif"><HEAD>
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2769" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV>
<DIV>Known-Measured Effects related to the Brillouin Effect:</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Lamb Shift.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Raman Effect (Stokes and&nbsp;AntiStokes lines)..</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Compton Effect.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>This (Stimulated Brillouin Scattering) research covers a lot:</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://www.nat.vu.nl/atom/thesis-iavor.pdf" rel=nofollow>http://www.nat.vu.nl/atom/thesis-iavor.pdf</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Fred</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=fjsparber earthlink.net href="mailto:fjsparber@earthlink.net">Frederick Sparber</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To: </B><A title=vortex-l eskimo.com href="mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com">vortex-l</A></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> 12/12/2005 6:10:14 AM </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Einstein Frequency/Temperature &amp; Photon-Phonon Heterodyne Action</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><FONT size=2>
<DIV>
<DIV>Next question, Jones. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Do you think that the 254 nanometer (4.88 eV)&nbsp;UV from a 4 watt fluorescent</DIV>
<DIV>bulb&nbsp;(quartz) surrounded by D2O in a hole drilled in an Aluminum block</DIV>
<DIV>can vibrate Deuterons (4.51 eV&nbsp; D-OD bond scission energy) enough to shake off Neutrons?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Fred</DIV>
<DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=fjsparber earthlink.net href="mailto:fjsparber@earthlink.net">Frederick Sparber</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To: </B><A title=vortex-l eskimo.com href="mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com">vortex-l</A></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> 12/12/2005 5:04:09 AM </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Einstein Frequency/Temperature &amp; Photon-Phonon Heterodyne Action</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><FONT size=2>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Photon and Phonon frequencies in the ZettaHz (10^21 Hz) and YottaHz (10^24 Hz) and</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>wavelengths down to Attometers (10^-18 meters) when looking at the frequency/wavelength</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>of gamma rays, quarks, and electrons.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Einstein (and others) throw in the atomic vibration frequency and energy in determining the specific</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>heat of matter. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Diamond at 331 K has an "Einstein Temperature" of 1300 K&nbsp; (which corresponds to</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>an infrared w3avelength of 11 microns)etc.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>The Brillouin Effect allows Phonons (Sound Energy&nbsp;Quanta) to Beat/Heterdyne against</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Photons (Light Energy Quanta) with the result that intermediate frequencies equal to the sum or difference</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>can be generated, and conversely, Photons can beat against Phonons with the same Beat/Heterdyne effect</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>(as originally proven by Garmire &amp; Townes in 1964).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Does this imply a Hot Phonon Gas in H2O or D2O that doesn't necessarily show</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>up as a higher temperature?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Fred</FONT></DIV></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8--


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Subject: Re: OffTopic: Lust and the bible
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Vortexians-Do you think its possible that Paul was refering
           to one flesh in relationship to disease.
           I am sure there was Vd back then and being of 
            one flesh would mean it would share the diseases
           of one another.- Ges-


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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Corn Burners
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Michael Foster wrote:

>Apparently the cost of burning the corn is about a third of
>that of natural gas for the same heat.  This raises some
>questions. Is the real cost of the corn reflected in the sale
>price, or is it the result of government agricultural subsidies?

It is the result of government subsidies to agriculture and -- oddly 
enough -- fossil fuel. If we paid the real, full cost of oil, about 
$5 per gallon for gasoline, corn would be far more expensive than it 
is, and alternatives sources of energy such as wind and solar would 
be more competitive, and conservation would be far more attractive.


>Does the raising of the corn use more fossil fuel energy than the 
>corn provides?

Yes, far more.


>Is it "immoral" to burn food as fuel even if it is animal feed?

Yes. It is also immoral because U.S. methods of growing corn are 
rapidly and permanently destroying the topsoil and the water table. 
Burning corn is like strip mining in slow motion.


>And finally, why not grind up and pelletize the rest of the corn 
>plant and therefore provide even more energy?

Because that would waste even more energy. It is bad enough 
converting 1 or 2 MJ of fossil fuel into 1 MJ of corn fuel.

- Jed


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Subject: Re: OffTopic: Lust and the bible
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" <salaw pobox.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2005 10:21 PM
Subject: Re: OffTopic: Lust and the bible


>
>
> Edmund Storms wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > revtec wrote:
> >
> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Edmund Storms"
> >> <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
> >> To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> >> Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2005 4:43 PM
> >> Subject: Re: OffTopic: Lust and the bible
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>> I admire your effort to calculate the size of the common flesh pool,
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> which essentially makes us all brothers and sisters in sex. However,
> >>> was
> >>> Paul not using this concept as a quaint way to describe making a baby?
> >>>
> >>> Ed
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I don't think so.  Here is the verse in New King James version: I
> >> Corinthian
> >> 6:16
> >>
> >> Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with
> >> her?
> >> For "the two" He says, "shall become one flesh."
> >
> >
> > We all know that we do not become literally one flesh when we have
> > sex. We do not even join in any spiritual way. The act is simply the
> > sharing of pleasure, except if a child results. The only time "one
> > flesh" results is when love is present before the act.  Therefore,
> > this way of describing the sex act must have a nonliteral meaning.
> > What do you think the nonliteral meaning might be?
>
> Keep in mind that "transubstantiation" of the mass was accepted as real
> among the early Christians.  Similarly, your 21st century notion that
> there is no physical alteration of the flesh of the partners either  as
> a result of intercourse or as a result of undergoing the marriage
> ceremony should be viewed as anachronistic when attempting to interpret
> the words of Paul.
>
> Furthermore, you must be a little careful when reading what Paul had to
> say about sex.  It's been a while since I went through those sections of
> the Bible with any care, but as I recall Paul is a big-time prude and
> appeared to have some major hangups in the area.  I would hesitate a
> long time before I'd rule out an interpretation of what he had to say on
> the grounds that it doesn't sound reasonable!

His point about being single makes sense.  He is saying that a single man
can spend his life pleasing God, while a married man must spend much of his
life pleasing his wife.  See 1st Cor 7:33

>
> Specifically, IIRC, he says (in one of the early, undisputed letters)
> that you should avoid sex entirely if possible.  But, he goes on, if,
> unlike Paul himself (!!), you find that difficult, you should take the
> next-best choice and get married so you can have an outlet for your
> passions.  He's not, as I recall, totally judgmental about it but his
> POV doesn't seem quite normal to me.
>
> With that said, I don't think he was telling folks not to fornicate
> because it makes illegitimate babies, any more than he was telling men
> not to have sex with men for that reason.  And as to his statement that
> we "become one flesh", he took it as "really symbolically true" AFAICT
> which is to say it meant _something_ of importance to him, but what it
> means isn't exactly clear!  Note well that this same line is quoted
> someplace or other in support of the notion that divorce should not be
> allowed.

Jesus clarified the full extent of the Law on this subject when He said "Any
man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery" (Matthew. 5:32).  Paul
added more clarification in Romans 7:2-3 to the extent that, divorce or not,
a woman is bound to her husband until he dies.  But, we who choose to be
under the grace of God thru the Blood of Jesus are not under the law.  We
are unable to keep the Law.  The Law shows us what sin is, but does not
enable us to rise above it.  As Paul said in Romans 7:10 "The commandment
that was to bring life, I found to bring death".  He goes on to say, "The
Law is spiritual, but we are carnal......For what I will to do, that I do
not practice; but what I hate, that I do......Oh wretched man that I am!
Who will deliver me from the body of this death."

We are all buried under a mountain of bad things we have commited, and each
day, inspite of our best efforts, we continue to add to it.  Do we want to
justify this pile of crap in front of God at the Judgement or should we put
it under the blood of Jesus and have it lifted from us?  Jesus paid the
price for all of our sin: past, present, and future.  Out of reverence,
respect, and gratitude, we must try to minimize the future stuff.  God's
salvation plan is so simple tha many people consider it too good to be true.
It may be simple, but it is not easy.  Salvation is free but it was not
cheap.  Can you imagine a God so loving that He would allow Himself to be
murdered by His own creation in order to  save it?  Would God have the right
to be angry with those who reject this plan?

Jeff


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Subject: Re: OffTopic: Lust and the bible
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revtec wrote:

>We are all buried under a mountain of bad things we have commited, and each
>day, inspite of our best efforts, we continue to add to it.  Do we want to
>justify this pile of crap in front of God at the Judgement or should we put
>it under the blood of Jesus and have it lifted from us?

Many aspects of religion strike me as creepy, but none more than this 
attitude. This debasement and belittling of the human species is 
sick, sick, sick. We are, as Hamlet put it, noble in reason, infinite 
in faculties, the paragon of animals. We have done nothing wrong and 
we have nothing to be ashamed of. To quote Bertrand Russell:

"We want to stand upon our own feet and look fair and square at the 
world -- its good facts, its bad facts, its beauties, and its 
ugliness; see the world as it is and be not afraid of it. Conquer the 
world by intelligence and not merely by being slavishly subdued by 
the terror that comes from it. The whole conception of a God is a 
conception derived from the ancient oriental despotisms. It is a 
conception quite unworthy of free men. When you hear people in church 
debasing themselves and saying that they are miserable sinners, and 
all the rest of it, it seems contemptible and not worthy of 
self-respecting human beings. We ought to stand up and look the world 
frankly in the face. We ought to make the best we can of the world, 
and if it is not so good as we wish, after all it will still be 
better than what these others have made of it in all these ages. A 
good world needs knowledge, kindliness, and courage; it does not need 
a regretful hankering after the past or a fettering of the free 
intelligence by the words uttered long ago by ignorant men. It needs 
a fearless outlook and a free intelligence. It needs hope for the 
future, not looking back all the time toward a past that is dead, 
which we trust will be far surpassed by the future that our 
intelligence can create."

- Jed


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Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 08:54:27 -0800 (PST)
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Einstein Frequency/Temperature & Photon-Phonon Heterodyne Action
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--- Frederick Sparber wrote:

 > Do you think that the 254 nanometer (4.88 eV) UV
> from a 4 watt fluorescent
> bulb (quartz) surrounded by D2O in a hole drilled in
> an Aluminum block
> can vibrate Deuterons (4.51 eV  D-OD bond scission
> energy) enough to shake off Neutrons?

Mizuno found some neutrons just by using cryogenics on
D2 in a strong, time-varying magnetic filed.

I think he was matching up phonon and photon
vibrations in the low terahertz and getting a
partial-BEC, whatever that is. To pull off this
"coherency trick" at a higher temp would be trickier.

Jones

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From: OrionWorks <orionworks charter.net>
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Subject: Re: OffTopic: Lust and the bible
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>From revtec:

...

> We are all buried under a mountain of bad things we have
> commited, and each day, inspite of our best efforts, we 
> continue to add to it.  Do we want to justify this pile 
> of crap in front of God at the Judgement or should we put
> it under the blood of Jesus and have it lifted from us?  
> Jesus paid the price for all of our sin: past, present, 
> and future.  Out of reverence, respect, and gratitude, we 
> must try to minimize the future stuff.  God's salvation 
> plan is so simple tha many people consider it too good to 
> be true. It may be simple, but it is not easy.  Salvation 
> is free but it was not cheap.  Can you imagine a God so 
> loving that He would allow Himself to be murdered by His 
> own creation in order to  save it?  Would God have the right
> to be angry with those who reject this plan?
>
> Jeff

I have always detested this line of reasoning. It creates massive guilt trips and is extremely manipulative. While I'm not an atheist I can appreciate why many prefer atheism, particularly when they are confronted with this kind of prevalent reasoning within our society.

Regarding "sin" I'm often inspired by the simplicity of one of Lincoln's more succulent quotes. See:

http://www.worldofquotes.com/author/Abraham-Lincoln/1/

Scroll down to around the 22nd phrase and read:

"When I do good, I feel good. When I do bad, I feel bad. And that's my religion." - Lincoln

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

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Subject: Re: OffTopic: Lust and the bible
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Jed Rothwell wrote:

> revtec wrote:
>
>> We are all buried under a mountain of bad things we have commited, 
>> and each
>> day, inspite of our best efforts, we continue to add to it.  Do we 
>> want to
>> justify this pile of crap in front of God at the Judgement or should 
>> we put
>> it under the blood of Jesus and have it lifted from us?
>
>
> Many aspects of religion strike me as creepy, but none more than this 
> attitude. This debasement and belittling of the human species is sick, 
> sick, sick.

Well put.  My wife, who, in reaction to that attitude,  has recently 
dragged the family out of the traditional church of which we were 
members and over to the UU church down the road, could not have said it 
more clearly or succinctly.

Jesus as the "lamb of God", the "blood of the Lamb" ... anybody here 
ever attended an actual animal sacrifice?  That's what the "Lamb of God" 
business is all about, you know; that's a _sacrificial_ "lamb of God".  
Furthermore, the "Lamb Upon the Throne" is supposed to be a _human_ 
sacrifice, to appease a God who was ticked off at everybody at the 
time.  One could say that Jesus was actually redeeming the animals, not 
the humans, since it's the animals who got their throats cut in the name 
of God in the old temple Judaism; by his sacrifice of himself he saved 
the sheep and doves from that same fate.  (In reality, of course, it was 
the Romans who saved the sheep and doves, by razing the temple -- but it 
was only a temporary fix, they're rebuilding it again.)

First century Christians understood all this perfectly well, since 
animal sacrifice was still current, and human sacrifice was something 
that had happened in relatively recent history.  Nowadays we need to do 
a double-take to realize what the words and symbols actually mean.

Going slightly farther off-topic, for a good time, read how cows are 
slaughtered in a kosher slaughterhouse.  They have to follow roughly the 
same rules as those which governed animal sacrifice, including the 
no-broken-bones rule, which means the normal methods of killing the 
cattle can't be used.

> We are, as Hamlet put it, noble in reason, infinite in faculties, the 
> paragon of animals. We have done nothing wrong and we have nothing to 
> be ashamed of.

Here one must ask, does this grand and supremely innocent "We..." 
include the young George Bush feeding firecrackers to frogs to watch 
them blow up?

One might, with some effort, come up with a few other things for which 
the human species has been responsible which some might view as worthy 
of some small amount of shame, I think...  but I'm not sure any of them 
are proscribed by the Bible, come to think of it.


> To quote Bertrand Russell:
>
> "We want to stand upon our own feet and look fair and square at the 
> world -- its good facts, its bad facts, its beauties, and its 
> ugliness; see the world as it is and be not afraid of it. Conquer the 
> world by intelligence and not merely by being slavishly subdued by the 
> terror that comes from it. The whole conception of a God is a 
> conception derived from the ancient oriental despotisms. It is a 
> conception quite unworthy of free men. When you hear people in church 
> debasing themselves and saying that they are miserable sinners, and 
> all the rest of it, it seems contemptible and not worthy of 
> self-respecting human beings. We ought to stand up and look the world 
> frankly in the face. We ought to make the best we can of the world, 
> and if it is not so good as we wish, after all it will still be better 
> than what these others have made of it in all these ages. A good world 
> needs knowledge, kindliness, and courage; it does not need a regretful 
> hankering after the past or a fettering of the free intelligence by 
> the words uttered long ago by ignorant men. It needs a fearless 
> outlook and a free intelligence. It needs hope for the future, not 
> looking back all the time toward a past that is dead, which we trust 
> will be far surpassed by the future that our intelligence can create."
>
> - Jed
>
>
>

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To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Cold fusion and HTSC
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

Jones Beene wrote:

>Mizuno found some neutrons just by using cryogenics on D2 in a 
>strong, time-varying magnetic filed.

Should be "field."


>I think he was matching up phonon and photon vibrations in the low 
>terahertz and getting a partial-BEC, whatever that is.

That reminds me, at ICCF-12 Lipson presented a paper on HTSC:

Lipson, A.G., et al. Evidence of Supersoichiometric H/D LENR Active 
Sites and High Temperature Superconductivity in a Hydrogen-Cycled 
Pd/PdO. in The 12th International Conference on Condensed Matter 
Nuclear Science. 2005. Yokohama, Japan.

I have the PowerPoint slides for this. Let me convert them to Acrobat 
and upload them. The file will be:

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/LipsonAGevidenceofa.pdf

Look for it in about a half hour.

- Jed

--=====================_16376437==.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
<body>
Jones Beene wrote:<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">Mizuno found some neutrons just
by using cryogenics on D2 in a strong, time-varying magnetic
filed.</blockquote><br>
Should be &quot;field.&quot;<br><br>
<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">I think he was matching up
phonon and photon vibrations in the low terahertz and getting a
partial-BEC, whatever that is.</blockquote><br>
That reminds me, at ICCF-12 Lipson presented a paper on HTSC:<br><br>
Lipson, A.G., et al. <i>Evidence of Supersoichiometric H/D LENR Active
Sites and High Temperature Superconductivity in a Hydrogen-Cycled
Pd/PdO</i>. in <i>The 12th International Conference on Condensed Matter
Nuclear Science</i>. 2005. Yokohama, Japan.<br><br>
I have the PowerPoint slides for this. Let me convert them to Acrobat and
upload them. The file will be:<br><br>
<a href="http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/LipsonAGevidenceofa.pdf" eudora="autourl">
http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/LipsonAGevidenceofa.pdf</a><br><br>
Look for it in about a half hour.<br><br>
- Jed<br>
</body>
</html>

--=====================_16376437==.ALT--


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 12 12:00:46 2005
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From: Harry Veeder <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: OT: Secrets of bee flight revealed
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Rick,

Ok thanks...sorry about my slow response.
If this effect is the primary cause of lift then if the flaps on the wing
of a plane are turned up then you would expect the plane to descend.
Instead a plane will climb.

Harry 

Rick Monteverde wrote:

> Harry -
> 
> I did the vacuum experiment years ago so details are a little hazy, but
> basically it was a jar with a small diameter (1/8" I.D. I think)tube
> sticking through the lid. Inside the jar was a small airfoil section
> made of modelling clay, suspended vertically with the tube pointing at
> the front/top surface. Basically like the spoon/faucet setup, but with
> an air jet instead of a faucet. Vacuum pump is high capacity relative to
> the small air inlet capacity, so when allowing air to flow in through
> the tube, the vacuum still stays fairly high - so all the significant
> air action is just the flow hitting the top side of the foil. The foil
> pulls into the airflow, just like the spoon in a water flow. And I'm
> pretty sure, mitigated by the absence of any real measurement, that the
> pressure on the top of the foil was mostly higher than on the bottom.
> 
> - Rick

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Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 15:25:06 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: OffTopic: Lust and the bible
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Stephen A. Lawrence wrote:

>>We are, as Hamlet put it, noble in reason, infinite in faculties, 
>>the paragon of animals. We have done nothing wrong and we have 
>>nothing to be ashamed of.
>
>Here one must ask, does this grand and supremely innocent "We..." 
>include the young George Bush feeding firecrackers to frogs to watch 
>them blow up?

Hey, we're predators. What would you expect? Besides, I don't believe 
in collective guilt.


>One might, with some effort, come up with a few other things for 
>which the human species has been responsible which some might view 
>as worthy of some small amount of shame, I think...

Sure, but most us had nothing to do with these atrocities.

Look, every healthy person feels some degree of existential guilt. 
You look around, you see people suffering, and you can't help but 
blame yourself partly. That's natural. It is okay -- even beneficial. 
Empathy is bred into us; group hunting predators take care of 
helpless pack members. What I object to is people who exploit that 
feeling. They enslave other people's minds with fear, based on 
hocus-pocus superstition and balderdash. They compound the problem by 
making people feel guilty about feeling guilty. They make life even 
more miserable than it is already. They rob people of dignity, hope 
and self-respect. They frighten little children. They incite the 
public to hate and fear science, which is our only hope for a decent, 
humane future. And for what? Only to empower themselves, or make a 
profit, or to spread their own warped, defeatist, guilt-ridden, 
irrational traditions to the next generation.

Of course I know that many religious people never engage in this sort 
of behavior. Many are wonderful people, and for that matter many 
scientists are heartless wretches. I have no use for religion myself, 
but in most people it is a harmless eccentricity, no worse than a 
passion for Contract Bridge.

By the way, there is an interesting article in the New York Times 
Magazine about antipathy toward science:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/11/magazine/11wwln_lead.html

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 12 15:03:42 2005
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From: "Rick Monteverde" <rick highsurf.com>
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Subject: RE: OT: Secrets of bee flight revealed
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That's pitch control dynamics, and I think you've got it backwards.
Flaps don't turn up, but ailerons do. And when an aileron goes up, that
wing goes down. Putting ailerons on both wings up at once would most
likely make the plane go down, all other factors constant.

- Rick

-----Original Message-----
From: Harry Veeder [mailto:eo200 freenet.carleton.ca] 
Sent: Monday, December 12, 2005 9:58 AM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: OT: Secrets of bee flight revealed


Rick,

Ok thanks...sorry about my slow response.
If this effect is the primary cause of lift then if the flaps on the
wing of a plane are turned up then you would expect the plane to
descend. Instead a plane will climb.

Harry 

Rick Monteverde wrote:

> Harry -
> 
> I did the vacuum experiment years ago so details are a little hazy, 
> but basically it was a jar with a small diameter (1/8" I.D. I 
> think)tube sticking through the lid. Inside the jar was a small 
> airfoil section made of modelling clay, suspended vertically with the 
> tube pointing at the front/top surface. Basically like the 
> spoon/faucet setup, but with an air jet instead of a faucet. Vacuum 
> pump is high capacity relative to the small air inlet capacity, so 
> when allowing air to flow in through the tube, the vacuum still stays 
> fairly high - so all the significant air action is just the flow 
> hitting the top side of the foil. The foil pulls into the airflow, 
> just like the spoon in a water flow. And I'm pretty sure, mitigated by

> the absence of any real measurement, that the pressure on the top of 
> the foil was mostly higher than on the bottom.
> 
> - Rick





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> http://www.worldofquotes.com/author/Abraham-Lincoln/1/
>
> Scroll down to around the 22nd phrase and read:
>
> "When I do good, I feel good. When I do bad, I feel bad. And that's my
religion." - Lincoln

So. why did this work for Lincoln, but not for Nero, Stalin, Bundy, and
dozens of other people we could quickly name?  Do you think these guys felt
bad about what they did?  Maybe they even felt good about it!  Do you think
there is any limit to the horrors that an unrestrained human mind can
justify?  History seems to say no.

We all exercise self restraint on a nearly continuous basis, and we do this
to a set of internal behavioral standards that are constantly being updated.
Updates that raise our standards are generally the result of receiving and
accepting instruction.  Standards may also be modified (usually downward) by
circumstances that affect us.
A trivial example is:  standing around the water cooler for 20 minutes
during the 10 minute break.  Do you go back to your desk after 10 minutes or
do you hang out longer?  If the guys get away with it week after week,
circumstances may lead you to a reduction in personal standards.  A sharp
word from the boss will bump everyones standard back up, at least
temporarily.  We all know which fellow worker will be the one to push the
envelope again a few days later.

Is "reduction of behavioral standards" a suitable definition for the word
"corruption"?  Here's a quote.  I don't recall who said it.  "Absolute power
corrupts absolutely."  Nero and Stalin had it on a national level, Bundy had
it on a personal level.  How do we avoid corruption in our lives on any
level?  It is fairly easy to see corruption in others.  How do we identify
it in ourselves?  Identification is surely the first step toward fixing it.
What would the next step be?

Jeff


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Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 12:37:16 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  thomas malloy's message of Mon, 12 Dec 2005 01:55:16
-0600:
Hi,
[snip]
>So based on the intensity of the halo we can understand the events 
>which produced it.
>
>>Each step of the decay sequence leaves a destinct halo.
>
>It's a spherical phenomena?
>
>>It's like a mass spectrometer read out, each peak, halo, is a 
>>trasition in the decay sequence.  I just remembered who's got my 
>>copy of Gentries book, Dad borrowed it, so I'll see if I can  get it 
>>back and check it for you.

Because each different isotope produces decay particles with a
different energy, those with the greatest energy will have the
greatest radius. Those with less energy will have a smaller
radius. This leads to a series of concentric shells.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 12 18:58:58 2005
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Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 21:57:02 -0500
From: Harry Veeder <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: OT: Secrets of bee flight revealed
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Ok. I was confusing the effect of elevator movement with the effect of flap
movement. Up turned elevators tilt the nose up, but they do not increase
the lift.
 
Harry

Rick Monteverde wrote:

> That's pitch control dynamics, and I think you've got it backwards.
> Flaps don't turn up, but ailerons do. And when an aileron goes up, that
> wing goes down. Putting ailerons on both wings up at once would most
> likely make the plane go down, all other factors constant.
> 
> - Rick
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Harry Veeder [mailto:eo200 freenet.carleton.ca]
> Sent: Monday, December 12, 2005 9:58 AM
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: Re: OT: Secrets of bee flight revealed
> 
> 
> Rick,
> 
> Ok thanks...sorry about my slow response.
> If this effect is the primary cause of lift then if the flaps on the
> wing of a plane are turned up then you would expect the plane to
> descend. Instead a plane will climb.
> 
> Harry 
> 
> Rick Monteverde wrote:
> 
>> Harry -
>> 
>> I did the vacuum experiment years ago so details are a little hazy,
>> but basically it was a jar with a small diameter (1/8" I.D. I
>> think)tube sticking through the lid. Inside the jar was a small
>> airfoil section made of modelling clay, suspended vertically with the
>> tube pointing at the front/top surface. Basically like the
>> spoon/faucet setup, but with an air jet instead of a faucet. Vacuum
>> pump is high capacity relative to the small air inlet capacity, so
>> when allowing air to flow in through the tube, the vacuum still stays
>> fairly high - so all the significant air action is just the flow
>> hitting the top side of the foil. The foil pulls into the airflow,
>> just like the spoon in a water flow. And I'm pretty sure, mitigated by
> 
>> the absence of any real measurement, that the pressure on the top of
>> the foil was mostly higher than on the bottom.
>> 
>> - Rick
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

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http://www.sacbee.com/content/opinion/story/13949592p-14784245c.html

Saudi "proven" reserves are shown at 262.7 billion barrels. In 1989, 
Saudi "proven" reserves were reported at 260 billion barrels. No 
significant fields have been discovered since then. How does one 
explain the current reserve? Kuwait's Burgan Field (the second-largest 
on Earth) has peaked and is in decline.

<more>

Keep your towel handy.
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Subject: Re: Einstein Frequency/Temperature & Photon-Phonon Heterodyne Action
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Fred wrote:

> Known-Measured Effects related to the Brillouin Effect:
 
> Lamb Shift.
 
> Raman Effect (Stokes and AntiStokes lines)..
 
> Compton Effect.
 
> This (Stimulated Brillouin Scattering) research covers a lot:
 
> http://www.nat.vu.nl/atom/thesis-iavor.pdf

This discussion brings up a question that I don't know
if anyone has bothered to ask, much less answer.  One 
useful effect of stimulated Brillioun scattering is
the frequency doubling of laser wavelengths.  This is
such a coherent effect I don't know if you could call
it scattering, but it's called SBS anyway.

The now familiar green laser pointer works this way.
A diode pumped 1064nm laser is focused through a
potassium dihydrogen phosphate crystal and the resulting
optically induced electrostriction causes the non-linear
SBS effect and you get that 532nm green color.

Deuterated versions of these non-linear crystals are usually
used instead of the compounds with ordinary hydrogen.  I've
never really thought about why this is done, although
apparently the deuterated crystals are known to be more
efficient.

Could some CF be going on in these crystals unnoticed?  In
other words, if you measure the optical energy of the laser
wavelength going in, the unconverted laser energy, the 
energy of the doubled wavelength, and the waste heat given
off do you arrive at over unity?

Just a mindless speculation.

M.

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 13 01:49:16 2005
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Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 09:47:17 +0000
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  Action
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At 10:47 pm 12/12/2005 -0500, Michael wrote:

<snip>

> Could some CF be going on in these crystals unnoticed?  


Quite possibly, in view of the 12th power law for the 
3D Casimir Effect. 

See the three recent "Casimir" posts at,
----------------------------------------------------
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Beta-atmosphere_group/
----------------------------------------------------


> Just a mindless speculation.


Not mindless at all, Michael.   8-)

It would be mindless to ignore 
such an intriguing possibility.


Frank Grimer

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------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8
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Michael Foster asks: 
> 
> 
> Could some CF be going on in these crystals unnoticed?  In
> other words, if you measure the optical energy of the laser
> wavelength going in, the unconverted laser energy, the 
> energy of the doubled wavelength, and the waste heat given
> off do you arrive at over unity?
>
To answer a question with a question, wouldn't it be simpler
to do calorimetry on a small fluorescent UV lamp in a aluminum
hole "cavity" immersed in D2O? 

IOW, why bother with single frequencies, when the uv lamp
output runs from micron infrared to 180 nm uv?

These folks got tripling of 532 nm Nd:YAG photons in light water.

http://www.nat.vu.nl/atom/thesis-iavor.pdf

Fred
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8
Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

<HTML><HEAD>
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2769" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV>Michael Foster asks:&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&gt; </DIV>
<DIV>&gt; </DIV>
<DIV>&gt; Could some CF be going on in these crystals unnoticed?&nbsp; In<BR>&gt; other words, if you measure the optical energy of the laser<BR>&gt; wavelength going in, the unconverted laser energy, the <BR>&gt; energy of the doubled wavelength, and the waste heat given<BR>&gt; off do you arrive at over unity?</DIV>
<DIV>&gt;</DIV>
<DIV>To answer a question with a question, wouldn't it be&nbsp;simpler</DIV>
<DIV>to do calorimetry on a small fluorescent UV lamp in a aluminum</DIV>
<DIV>hole "cavity" immersed in D2O? </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>IOW, why bother with single frequencies, when the uv lamp</DIV>
<DIV>output runs from micron infrared to 180 nm uv?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>These folks got tripling of 532 nm Nd:YAG photons in light water.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://www.nat.vu.nl/atom/thesis-iavor.pdf">http://www.nat.vu.nl/atom/thesis-iavor.pdf</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Fred</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8--


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I think Ed Storms and Jed Rothwell make good point the "one flesh" thing 
but the "one flesh"  reference misses the point.
Leviticus is were the action is and it includes things like quarantine, 
antiseptics (Hyssop and cedar oil) both known antibacterial agents that 
have never produced immune strains of bugs. I need to focus on the 
fusion work for a while but if your interested in the subject read R. J. 
Rushdoony's books on the subject he is quite good. 
http://www.chalcedonstore.com/xcart/home.php
More below, I couldn't resist.

 

:

> Stephen A. Lawrence wrote:
>
>>> We are, as Hamlet put it, noble in reason, infinite in faculties, 
>>> the paragon of animals. We have done nothing wrong and we have 
>>> nothing to be ashamed of.
>>
>>
>> Here one must ask, does this grand and supremely innocent "We..." 
>> include the young George Bush feeding firecrackers to frogs to watch 
>> them blow up?
>
>
> Hey, we're predators. What would you expect? Besides, I don't believe 
> in collective guilt.

George was not a Christian in his child hood he's a recent convert. Many 
in the western world are what we in the church call nominal Christians, 
people who are born into the history and traditions without knowing God 
or understanding any doctrine. World Christianity is divided into what 
we call the visible church: with a mix of denominations and creeds, with 
people who are well meaning but very nominal Christians, a few saints, 
and a lot of others that are a waste of a good pew. There's a few that 
are truly dangerous.
The church invisible is the body of true believers inside all the 
various denominations. They have sound doctrine and work hard to win 
souls. There often too busy to try to run the show, sometimes that is a 
mistake, allowing others to rise to the top. The church invisible 
includes a few outside the formal church who for one reason or another 
have found God but still can't find a church that is worth attending. 
There are many hidden in communist countries and the moslem arc who 
can't go public with their faith because of persecution.
PS I'm not a Roman Catholic and you might guess I think the Vatican has 
a lot more of the visible [very] church in it and a lot less of the 
church invisible church than it thinks ;-) .
 

>
>
>> One might, with some effort, come up with a few other things for 
>> which the human species has been responsible which some might view as 
>> worthy of some small amount of shame, I think...
>
>
> Sure, but most us had nothing to do with these atrocities.
>
> Look, every healthy person feels some degree of existential guilt. You 
> look around, you see people suffering, and you can't help but blame 
> yourself partly. That's natural. It is okay -- even beneficial. 
> Empathy is bred into us; group hunting predators take care of helpless 
> pack members. What I object to is people who exploit that feeling. 
> They enslave other people's minds with fear, based on hocus-pocus 
> superstition and balderdash. They compound the problem by making 
> people feel guilty about feeling guilty. They make life even more 
> miserable than it is already. They rob people of dignity, hope and 
> self-respect. They frighten little children. They incite the public to 
> hate and fear science, which is our only hope for a decent, humane 
> future. And for what? Only to empower themselves, or make a profit, or 
> to spread their own warped, defeatist, guilt-ridden, irrational 
> traditions to the next generation.
>
> Of course I know that many religious people never engage in this sort 
> of behavior. Many are wonderful people, and for that matter many 
> scientists are heartless wretches. I have no use for religion myself, 
> but in most people it is a harmless eccentricity, no worse than a 
> passion for Contract Bridge.
>
> By the way, there is an interesting article in the New York Times 
> Magazine about antipathy toward science:
>
> http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/11/magazine/11wwln_lead.html

It's interesting that antipathy towards science was lowest when the 
church was stronger in the 1950's and antipathy is strong now that the 
church is weak and the new age stuff is pushing into the mainstream. 
There's a whole other debate to be had there but I have a few dozen 
ICCF12 papers to find and read.
Not to mention a letter to a politician on  "live embryo transplant"  
ectogenesis as an alternative to abortion.  Wish me luck I'll really 
need it on that one.
bye from wesley.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 13 06:00:31 2005
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: A laugh and half from our News section
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We report on the Revenge of the Electrochemists! See:

http://lenr-canr.org/News.htm

"We just added two new papers by Li et al., including our first paper 
in Chinese, a 1990 Introduction to Cold Fusion, and a more technical 
review, 'A Chinese View on Summary of Condensed Matter Nuclear 
Science,' from the September 2004 issue of Journal of Fusion Energy. 
The Journal of Fusion Energy is edited by president of the plasma 
fusion lobby, Fusion Power Associates in Gathersburg, MD. Heretofore 
it has been strongly opposed to cold fusion, so we welcome this new 
open minded support for cold fusion, although it is a little puzzling 
that in the same issue of the journal the editor again attacks cold 
fusion, calling it 'controversial and entirely unproved' (p. 161)."

The hyperlinks from the above text are:

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/LiXZanintroduc.pdf

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/LiXZachinesevi.pdf

http://fusionpower.org/

Note: Li is now a contributing editor of J. Fusion Energy. That must 
fry the editor's ass, ha, ha, ha!

- Jed


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Vortexians- I am not a devout christian- But I must admit
            the elelgant simplicity of Christ teachings and
            the simple requirements to enter heaven make it
            the most God like of all teachings.
               To enter heaven one must -believe- be baptised-
            and do chose to do good to all others.
             If I don't do good I simply must ask for forgiveness
                and try to do better in the future.
              I don't have to bow a certain number times aday-
           I don't have to beat myself -I don't have to make a 
           pilgramish to any where.
                          So elegant yet so simple.
                         _ges-


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 13 11:36:04 2005
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Christianity

All things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye so to 
them; for this is the law and the prophets.
      Matthew 7:1

Confucianism

Do not do to others what you would not like yourself. Then there will 
be no resentment against you, either in the family or in the state.
      Analects 12:2

Buddhism

Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful.
      Udana-Varga 5,1

Hinduism

This is the sum of duty; do naught onto others what you would not have 
them do unto you.
      Mahabharata 5,1517

Islam

No one of you is a believer until he desires for his brother that which 
he desires for himself.
      Sunnah

Judaism

What is hateful to you, do not do to your fellowman. This is the entire 
Law; all the rest is commentary.
      Talmud, Shabbat 3id

Taoism

Regard your neighbor?s gain as your gain, and your neighbor?s loss as 
your own loss.
      Tai Shang Kan Yin P?ien

Zoroastrianism

That nature alone is good which refrains from doing another whatsoever 
is not good for itself.
      Dadisten-I-dinik, 94,5


-----Original Message-----
From: gesrebspar juno.com <gesrebspar@juno.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Sent: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 16:49:46 GMT
Subject: Re: OffTopic: Lust and the bible

Vortexians- I am not a devout christian- But I must admit
            the elelgant simplicity of Christ teachings and
            the simple requirements to enter heaven make it
            the most God like of all teachings.
               To enter heaven one must -believe- be baptised-
            and do chose to do good to all others.
             If I don't do good I simply must ask for forgiveness
                and try to do better in the future.
              I don't have to bow a certain number times aday-
           I don't have to beat myself -I don't have to make a
           pilgramish to any where.
                          So elegant yet so simple.
                         _ges-



___________________________________________________
Try the New Netscape Mail Today!
Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List
http://mail.netscape.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 13 12:04:33 2005
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From: OrionWorks <orionworks charter.net>
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>> http://www.worldofquotes.com/author/Abraham-Lincoln/1/
>>
>> Scroll down to around the 22nd phrase and read:
>>
>> "When I do good, I feel good. When I do bad, I feel bad. 
>> And that's my religion." - Lincoln

> So. why did this work for Lincoln, but not for Nero, Stalin,
> Bundy, and dozens of other people we could quickly name?  Do
> you think these guys felt bad about what they did?  Maybe 
> they even felt good about it!  Do you think there is any 
> limit to the horrors that an unrestrained human mind can
> justify?  History seems to say no.

> We all exercise self restraint on a nearly continuous basis,
> and we do this to a set of internal behavioral standards that 
> are constantly being updated. Updates that raise our standards
> are generally the result of receiving and accepting instruction.
> Standards may also be modified (usually downward) by 
> circumstances that affect us. A trivial example is:  standing
> around the water cooler for 20 minutes during the 10 minute 
> break.  Do you go back to your desk after 10 minutes or do you 
> hang out longer?  If the guys get away with it week after week,
> circumstances may lead you to a reduction in personal standards.
> A sharp word from the boss will bump everyones standard back up,
> at least temporarily.  We all know which fellow worker will be 
>the one to push the envelope again a few days later.
>
> Is "reduction of behavioral standards" a suitable definition 
> for the word "corruption"?  Here's a quote.  I don't recall 
> who said it.  "Absolute power corrupts absolutely."  Nero and 
> Stalin had it on a national level, Bundy had it on a personal 
> level.  How do we avoid corruption in our lives on any level?  
> It is fairly easy to see corruption in others.  How do we 
> identify it in ourselves?  Identification is surely the first
> step toward fixing it. What would the next step be?
>
> Jeff

In my view you have asked an important question but have not followed through with: Why DID it work for Lincoln, as compared to Bundy, Stalin, or Nero.

Obviously, it works better for some than others.

It's obvious that there are many who seem to need this kind of religious structure in their lives in order to feel spiritually saved - though perhaps "spoken for" might seem a more accurate description. OTOH, there are also many others who don't need this kind of religious structure in their lives order to feel spiritually saved. Many of them who don't need this structure in their lives also deeply resent being told by those who feel they have been "saved" that what "saved" them must, by default, apply to them as well, as if they know what's best for them.

I acknowledge the fact that your belief in being saved by Jesus is a genuine one. I have no desire in persuading you from it. It works for you.

Unfortunately for me, it is pretty much those beliefs attributed to the great man, Jesus, that does nothing for my spiritual salvation. For me, it's absurd to believe that Jesus could absolve me from my sins - even temporarily. He isn't responsible for my actions, and never was. I also don't ever recall asking Jesus to take on the role of a poster spiritual whipping boy and I refuse to be guilt tripped into assuming that for my own spiritual salvation I ought to. Regarding Sin: Have I sinned? Of course I have. In the end I'm the one who must ultimately pay the price for my sins, and hopefully any good deeds I may have committed as well.

It seems as if much of the Christian religious doctrine treats the crucifixion of Jesus more like one gigantic spiritual credit card transaction where the "sins" of humanity were only temporarily paid "in-full" on credit - as if humanity went out on an uncontrollable buying binge to BEST BUY and picked up the most expensive plasma HDTVs money can buy. But now...watch out for those end-of-the-month payments.

For me, to have Jesus assume my sins by dieing on the cross cheapens the selfless act of what Jesus performed. What I see is that Jesus turned the other cheek - and paid the ultimate price for his bravery. I feel bad that such terrible badness was done unto him. It inspires me to want to behave better towards my fellow man and womankind. I don't always succeed.

Concerning my own spiritual welfare I think it dubious to buy into heavenly transactions of such seriousness where one's "sins" have allegedly been temporarily paid-in full on credit. Cuz, as we all know, the longer you take to pay off the balance... the interest alone will eventually do you in.

* * * * *

You ask many other interesting questions, particularly on personal "corruption" and how one goes about fixing it, or is there something greater than oneself that can be tapped into or yielded to, but for now, I've contributed enough OT rhetoric to fill the bottom of a bird cage.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 13 13:33:02 2005
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: OffTopic: Lust and the bible
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OrionWorks wrote:

> > So. why did this work for Lincoln, but not for Nero, Stalin,
> > Bundy, and dozens of other people we could quickly name?
>
>It's obvious that there are many who seem to need this kind of 
>religious structure in their lives in order to feel spiritually 
>saved - though perhaps "spoken for" might seem a more accurate description.

I see no connection between Stalin or Nero and religion, or morality 
for that matter. We know how to keep such people from getting power 
or causing harm. We use democracy, the rule of law, the police, or if 
all else fails, the army. These institutions have nothing to do with 
religion or philosophy.

There are probably a million people in the U.S. who would act like 
Stalin or Nero given half a chance. Our institutions prevent that, so 
these people are no threat to us, and their personal morality is none 
of our business. We do not need them to reform, or believe in the 
golden rule, or act nice, or worship, or do anything else they are 
not inclined to do. They are free to spend their lives making their 
families miserable and engaging in unspeakable acts. All long as they 
do not break any major laws, who cares?

Megalomaniacs are only a threat in societies such as Iraq, or Germany 
in 1930, where there is no firmly established democracy or rule of 
law. They only threaten democratic societies when the chaos they 
cause spills over international borderlines.  Sooner or later, every 
country will become reasonably democratic, in one form or another. 
Once that happens, people like Stalin or Bin Laden will never again 
threaten anyone. There is no need to change human nature, pray for 
universal enlightenment, or wait for a better class of homo sapiens 
to evolve. People -- just as they are now, with all their faults 
intact -- can construct a world that is immune to war and extreme 
tyranny. Petty tyrants and fools will probably always be with us.

- Jed


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--=====================_1838125==.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

Over at CMNS someone remarked that Xing Li has been in the hot fusion 
business for a long time, which is why they let him into J. Fusion 
Energy. (Who else have they got? They're growing old too.) My response:

"Sure, I know that. Still, I'll bet the readers of J. Fusion Energy 
swallowed their gum when they saw Li's article. They must have been 
appalled! I am tempted to write to the editor and ask how he 
reconciles the comments on page 161 and the article on page 217. But 
I shall refrain. I doubt he is happy about the situation and I would 
not want to gloat."

I'll let the poor man suffer in silence, but if someone here wants 
razz him, I'd love to read his response (if any), so please copy the 
messages to me.

I changed the front page to say, "LENR-CANR welcomes . . . the more 
open minded attitude at the plasma-fusion-oriented Journal of Fusion 
Energy." I hope to rile the hot fusion people who overlooked the paper.

Hey, we may be losing every battle in this war, but at least we have 
something to laugh about. The opposition is hysterical, in every 
sense of the word.

- Jed

--=====================_1838125==.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
<body>
Over at CMNS someone remarked that Xing Li has been in the hot fusion
business for a long time, which is why they let him into J. Fusion
Energy. (Who else have they got? They're growing old too.) My
response:<br><br>
&quot;Sure, I know that. Still, I'll bet the readers of J. Fusion Energy
swallowed their gum when they saw Li's article. They must have been
appalled! I am tempted to write to the editor and ask how he reconciles
the comments on page 161 and the article on page 217. But I shall
refrain. I doubt he is happy about the situation and I would not want to
gloat.&quot;<br><br>
I'll let the poor man suffer in silence, but if someone here wants razz
him, I'd love to read his response (if any), so please copy the messages
to me.<br><br>
I changed the front page to say, &quot;LENR-CANR welcomes . . . the more
open minded attitude at the plasma-fusion-oriented <i>Journal of Fusion
Energy</i>.&quot; I hope to rile the hot fusion people who overlooked the
paper.<br><br>
Hey, we may be losing every battle in this war, but at least we have
something to laugh about. The opposition is hysterical, in every sense of
the word.<br><br>
- Jed<br>
</body>
</html>

--=====================_1838125==.ALT--


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Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 15:58:54 -0500
From: Harry Veeder <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: OffTopic: Lust and the bible
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"I've a good mind to join a club and beat you over the head with it."
 -- Groucho Marx in Duck Soup (1933)

Harry


hohlrauml6d netscape.net wrote:

> Christianity
> 
> All things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye so to
> them; for this is the law and the prophets.
> Matthew 7:1
> 
> Confucianism
> 
> Do not do to others what you would not like yourself. Then there will
> be no resentment against you, either in the family or in the state.
> Analects 12:2
> 
> Buddhism
> 
> Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful.
> Udana-Varga 5,1
> 
> Hinduism
> 
> This is the sum of duty; do naught onto others what you would not have
> them do unto you.
> Mahabharata 5,1517
> 
> Islam
> 
> No one of you is a believer until he desires for his brother that which
> he desires for himself.
> Sunnah
> 
> Judaism
> 
> What is hateful to you, do not do to your fellowman. This is the entire
> Law; all the rest is commentary.
> Talmud, Shabbat 3id
> 
> Taoism
> 
> Regard your neighbor?s gain as your gain, and your neighbor?s loss as
> your own loss.
> Tai Shang Kan Yin P?ien
> 
> Zoroastrianism
> 
> That nature alone is good which refrains from doing another whatsoever
> is not good for itself.
> Dadisten-I-dinik, 94,5
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gesrebspar juno.com <gesrebspar@juno.com>
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> Sent: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 16:49:46 GMT
> Subject: Re: OffTopic: Lust and the bible
> 
> Vortexians- I am not a devout christian- But I must admit
> the elelgant simplicity of Christ teachings and
> the simple requirements to enter heaven make it
> the most God like of all teachings.
> To enter heaven one must -believe- be baptised-
> and do chose to do good to all others.
> If I don't do good I simply must ask for forgiveness
> and try to do better in the future.
> I don't have to bow a certain number times aday-
> I don't have to beat myself -I don't have to make a
> pilgramish to any where.
> So elegant yet so simple.
> _ges-
> 
> 
> 
> ___________________________________________________
> Try the New Netscape Mail Today!
> Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List
> http://mail.netscape.com
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 13 14:08:51 2005
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From: "Rick Monteverde" <rick highsurf.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: OT: Secrets of bee flight revealed
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 10:48:18 -1000
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Harry -

If you change your pitch angle upward, you get an increased angle of
attack on the wings, at least initially depending on what you allow to
happen with airspeed and power settings. As angle of attack increases,
so does lift increase (and drag)- up to the region where aerodynamic
stall begins. This is very basic.

-----Original Message-----
From: Harry Veeder [mailto:eo200 freenet.carleton.ca] 
Sent: Monday, December 12, 2005 4:57 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: OT: Secrets of bee flight revealed


Ok. I was confusing the effect of elevator movement with the effect of
flap movement. Up turned elevators tilt the nose up, but they do not
increase the lift.
 
Harry

Rick Monteverde wrote:

> That's pitch control dynamics, and I think you've got it backwards. 
> Flaps don't turn up, but ailerons do. And when an aileron goes up, 
> that wing goes down. Putting ailerons on both wings up at once would 
> most likely make the plane go down, all other factors constant.
> 
> - Rick
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Harry Veeder [mailto:eo200 freenet.carleton.ca]
> Sent: Monday, December 12, 2005 9:58 AM
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: Re: OT: Secrets of bee flight revealed
> 
> 
> Rick,
> 
> Ok thanks...sorry about my slow response.
> If this effect is the primary cause of lift then if the flaps on the 
> wing of a plane are turned up then you would expect the plane to 
> descend. Instead a plane will climb.
> 
> Harry
> 
> Rick Monteverde wrote:
> 
>> Harry -
>> 
>> I did the vacuum experiment years ago so details are a little hazy, 
>> but basically it was a jar with a small diameter (1/8" I.D. I 
>> think)tube sticking through the lid. Inside the jar was a small 
>> airfoil section made of modelling clay, suspended vertically with the

>> tube pointing at the front/top surface. Basically like the 
>> spoon/faucet setup, but with an air jet instead of a faucet. Vacuum 
>> pump is high capacity relative to the small air inlet capacity, so 
>> when allowing air to flow in through the tube, the vacuum still stays

>> fairly high - so all the significant air action is just the flow 
>> hitting the top side of the foil. The foil pulls into the airflow, 
>> just like the spoon in a water flow. And I'm pretty sure, mitigated 
>> by
> 
>> the absence of any real measurement, that the pressure on the top of 
>> the foil was mostly higher than on the bottom.
>> 
>> - Rick
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 





From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 13 18:20:56 2005
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Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 21:20:08 -0500
From: hohlrauml6d netscape.net
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"I wouldn't join a club that would have me as a member."

-Marx

http://tinyurl.com/8o99r

http://tinyurl.com/3t5sd

Gesundheit!


-----Original Message-----
From: Harry Veeder <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Sent: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 15:58:54 -0500
Subject: Re: OffTopic: Lust and the bible

"I've a good mind to join a club and beat you over the head with it."
 -- Groucho Marx in Duck Soup (1933)
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 13 19:50:14 2005
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Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 22:48:22 -0500
From: Harry Veeder <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: OT: Secrets of bee flight revealed
In-reply-to: <000b01c60026$91886470$da01a8c0 dtqf101>
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Let me rephrase myself. Elevators only generate lift by changing the pitch
angle upward because the tail is pushed down when the elevators tilt up.

Harry

 

Rick Monteverde wrote:

> Harry -
> 
> If you change your pitch angle upward, you get an increased angle of
> attack on the wings, at least initially depending on what you allow to
> happen with airspeed and power settings. As angle of attack increases,
> so does lift increase (and drag)- up to the region where aerodynamic
> stall begins. This is very basic.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Harry Veeder [mailto:eo200 freenet.carleton.ca]
> Sent: Monday, December 12, 2005 4:57 PM
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: Re: OT: Secrets of bee flight revealed
> 
> 
> Ok. I was confusing the effect of elevator movement with the effect of
> flap movement. Up turned elevators tilt the nose up, but they do not
> increase the lift.
> 
> Harry
> 
> Rick Monteverde wrote:
> 
>> That's pitch control dynamics, and I think you've got it backwards.
>> Flaps don't turn up, but ailerons do. And when an aileron goes up,
>> that wing goes down. Putting ailerons on both wings up at once would
>> most likely make the plane go down, all other factors constant.
>> 
>> - Rick
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Harry Veeder [mailto:eo200 freenet.carleton.ca]
>> Sent: Monday, December 12, 2005 9:58 AM
>> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>> Subject: Re: OT: Secrets of bee flight revealed
>> 
>> 
>> Rick,
>> 
>> Ok thanks...sorry about my slow response.
>> If this effect is the primary cause of lift then if the flaps on the
>> wing of a plane are turned up then you would expect the plane to
>> descend. Instead a plane will climb.
>> 
>> Harry
>> 
>> Rick Monteverde wrote:
>> 
>>> Harry -
>>> 
>>> I did the vacuum experiment years ago so details are a little hazy,
>>> but basically it was a jar with a small diameter (1/8" I.D. I
>>> think)tube sticking through the lid. Inside the jar was a small
>>> airfoil section made of modelling clay, suspended vertically with the
> 
>>> tube pointing at the front/top surface. Basically like the
>>> spoon/faucet setup, but with an air jet instead of a faucet. Vacuum
>>> pump is high capacity relative to the small air inlet capacity, so
>>> when allowing air to flow in through the tube, the vacuum still stays
> 
>>> fairly high - so all the significant air action is just the flow
>>> hitting the top side of the foil. The foil pulls into the airflow,
>>> just like the spoon in a water flow. And I'm pretty sure, mitigated
>>> by
>> 
>>> the absence of any real measurement, that the pressure on the top of
>>> the foil was mostly higher than on the bottom.
>>> 
>>> - Rick
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 13 23:36:06 2005
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References: <a05111b02bfbf92b06e6c [208.50.219.209]>
 <439ACAD1.3060604 iinet.net.au> <a05111b02bfc2dbc28d00@[204.246.241.195]>
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Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 01:35:58 -0600
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From: thomas malloy <temalloy usfamily.net>
Subject: Re: polonium halos
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I posted;

>  >So based on the intensity of the halo we can understand the events
>>which produced it.
>>
>>>Each step of the decay sequence leaves a destinct halo.
>>
>>It's a spherical phenomena?
>>

And Wesley Bruce and Robin van Spaandonk replied;

>  >>It's like a mass spectrometer read out, each peak, halo, is a
>>>trasition in the decay sequence.  I just remembered who's got my
>>>copy of Gentries book, Dad borrowed it, so I'll see if I can  get it
>>>back and check it for you.
>
>Because each different isotope produces decay particles with a
>different energy, those with the greatest energy will have the
>greatest radius. Those with less energy will have a smaller
>radius. This leads to a series of concentric shells.

Thank you for your reply Robin. However I'm still wondering about 
extracting information from the imprint of the energy on the rock. 
Any suggestions about what areas I should read about?


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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 13 23:46:42 2005
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Subject: helium 3 fusion
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One night on C to  C AM an interviewee mentioned his attempts to 
commercialize energy production from helium 3. An official with Shell 
warned him not to pursue the matter, and he was unable to secure 
funding. A previous interviewee talked about mining it on the moon. 
There are few materials which are sufficiently valuable that such a 
scenario would be feasible, but this might be one of them. I'm 
wondering if isotopic separation would be an option, and how the 
reaction might be facilitated.


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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 14 01:39:19 2005
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From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: RE: OffTopic: Lust and the bible
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 09:38:38 -0000
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It's called comparative religion. Religion without the b.s. magic and
mysticism is called Humanitarianism.  

-----Original Message-----
From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On
Behalf Of hohlrauml6d netscape.net
Sent: 13 December 2005 19:35
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: OffTopic: Lust and the bible

Christianity

All things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye so to 
them; for this is the law and the prophets.
      Matthew 7:1

Confucianism

Do not do to others what you would not like yourself. Then there will 
be no resentment against you, either in the family or in the state.
      Analects 12:2

Buddhism

Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful.
      Udana-Varga 5,1

Hinduism

This is the sum of duty; do naught onto others what you would not have 
them do unto you.
      Mahabharata 5,1517

Islam

No one of you is a believer until he desires for his brother that which 
he desires for himself.
      Sunnah

Judaism

What is hateful to you, do not do to your fellowman. This is the entire 
Law; all the rest is commentary.
      Talmud, Shabbat 3id

Taoism

Regard your neighbor?s gain as your gain, and your neighbor?s loss as 
your own loss.
      Tai Shang Kan Yin P?ien

Zoroastrianism

That nature alone is good which refrains from doing another whatsoever 
is not good for itself.
      Dadisten-I-dinik, 94,5


-----Original Message-----
From: gesrebspar juno.com <gesrebspar@juno.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Sent: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 16:49:46 GMT
Subject: Re: OffTopic: Lust and the bible

Vortexians- I am not a devout christian- But I must admit
            the elelgant simplicity of Christ teachings and
            the simple requirements to enter heaven make it
            the most God like of all teachings.
               To enter heaven one must -believe- be baptised-
            and do chose to do good to all others.
             If I don't do good I simply must ask for forgiveness
                and try to do better in the future.
              I don't have to bow a certain number times aday-
           I don't have to beat myself -I don't have to make a
           pilgramish to any where.
                          So elegant yet so simple.
                         _ges-



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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 14 02:15:51 2005
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Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 04:14:57 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy usfamily.net>
Subject: Re: OffTopic: Lust and the bible
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Vortexians;

I found the response to this thread interesting, it was as if I'd 
been subscribed to a religious list.

Sexual immorality is any sexual activity other than that between a 
married couple. Lust is forbidden by Yeshua. He is clearly using the 
word as something stronger than something that you simply want.

I realize that other religious systems have love your neighbor as 
yourself as a tenant. There are lots of elements of the Christian 
religion which had common elements in older pagan religions. There 
are two ways to look at this; one is Universalism, all religions lead 
to salvation, the other view is that  Satan is a clever counterfeiter.

>Harry Veeder wrote:
>>
>>
>>1.    Can a Christian lust and still be qualified to enter into the 
>>Kingdom of God?

Yes but only if you repent.

>Otherwise, you'll need to do some purgatory time, but after that 
>you're cleared for takeoff on the runway to Heaven.

I thought that the Roman Church had repented of purgatory

>
>>2.    Can a man or a woman lust for their mate, yet without sin?
>

Lust implies sexual desire. This is one thing if both of the people 
are single, but if one of them are married, it is sin.

>
>>3.    Is lusting a sin?

yes

>
>>4.    Do you really know the difference between lust and desire?

I think that the difference is obvious.

>>5.    If you lust for something, would your Maker grant it to you?

He might, if it pleases him.

>>6.    If you caught yourself lusting should you repent of it?

There is no forgiveness of sin without repentance.

>>7.    Does God, Christ, and all the holy angels ever lust?

A holy, kadosh, G-d, cannot allow that which is unholy in his 
kingdom. The angels and the Sons of G-d who lusted left heaven

>>Those who are spirit beings, those who are Holy, perfect, and righteous?

The ones who lusted left heaven long ago and came here. According to 
the Book of Enoch, they are imprisoned here awaiting judgment.

>
>Regarding (7.): Yes, of course, angels do.  See Genesis 6:1-4 for more info.
>
>But that's a very concise treatment of the story.  For a longer and 
>more explicit version see 1 Enoch 6-7, followed by additional 
>references throughout the following chapters up to 1 Enoch 71.  (1 
>Enoch is an early first century Jewish work which appears to have 
>been treated as ... um, well, gospel,

We believe that the Enoch in the title is the Enoch mentioned in 
Genesis. Noah brought a copy with him on the ark.

>  I guess you'd call it ... by many in the early Church, certainly 
>including St. Jude, who quotes from it, and possibly including Paul 
>himself.  It was considered a sacred book by the Christian church in 
>Ethiopia for centuries.)

My rabbi agrees.

>For a bit more on Satan/Lucipher and his feelings in various matters 
>see the Life of Adam and Eve 12-16.  He's apparently a very 
>emotional guy, and quite proud, and feels he really got shafted by 
>God.  (LoA&E is also a 1st century work, which incorporates 
>longstanding traditions surrounding the events in the Bible.)

Leave it up to Lucifer to believe that. He started out with pride, 
and then he lied, and then he murdered. Tonight's interviewee on C to 
C AM is talking about Zachuriah Sitchens who has written a book about 
some Sumerian clay tablets that he translated. He tells a story about 
an extra terresterial race called the Ananaki, who created humans to 
be their slaves. Sitchen's story continues with the usual New Age B 
S.  Satan has a long history of writing books which deceive people. 
IMHO, this is one of the finest examples of his art.

>And who, by the way, ever said angels are "perfect"?

A holy G-d cannot tolerate that which is unholy in his kingdom.

>
>>
>>Don't be too quick to answer. Remember, all of our background came 
>>from our parents, culture, and our society.

>Take yourself out of our culture and into some other where "lust" 
>and "sin" aren't all tangled up together and where "Christ" is just 
>a word with no meaning and nobody's ever heard parables about the 
>"Kingdom of Heaven", and you'll have trouble even understanding what 
>those questions are supposed to mean.

You're making several assumptions, and you know what happens when you 
assume. If there is no creator, and he has no interest in making the 
Earth holy, then you can write the story off as a parable.


--- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 14 04:36:42 2005
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To: "vortex-l" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Einstein Frequency/Temperature & Photon-Phonon Heterodyne Action
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The 3.25 inch long GE A-H6 1000 watt water-cooled Quartz Lamps provide 31 watts of uv below 280 nanometers, 75 watts in the
280-320 nm range, 90 watts 320-380 nm range, or 195 watts total uv below 380 nm.  And 290 watts in the visible 380-760 nm range.
The rest is infrared (I suppose). 
"Water-Cooled" with D2O flowing past could be interesting.

$8.79 each at this surplus outlet. If they are Quartz.

http://www.electronicsurplus.com/commerce/catalog/product.jsp;jsessionid=56CB4EDCD3F70176BD09F535A5D96092?product_id=70387&czuid=1134571800423

Fred
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<HTML><HEAD>
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2769" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>The 3.25 inch long GE A-H6 1000 watt water-cooled Quartz Lamps provide 31 watts of uv below 280 nanometers, 75 watts in the</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>280-320 nm range, 90 watts&nbsp;320-380 nm range, or 195 watts total uv below 380 nm.&nbsp; And 290 watts in the visible 380-760 nm range.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>The rest is infrared (I suppose).</FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>"Water-Cooled" with D2O flowing past could be interesting.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>$8.79 each at this surplus outlet. If they are Quartz.</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2><A href="http://www.electronicsurplus.com/commerce/catalog/product.jsp;jsessionid=56CB4EDCD3F70176BD09F535A5D96092?product_id=70387&amp;czuid=1134571800423">http://www.electronicsurplus.com/commerce/catalog/product.jsp;jsessionid=56CB4EDCD3F70176BD09F535A5D96092?product_id=70387&amp;czuid=1134571800423</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Fred</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 14 05:23:59 2005
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: "vortex-l" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Einstein Frequency/Temperature & Photon-Phonon Heterodyne Action
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 06:23:25 -0700
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GE  A-H6 Lamp Data:

Operating Pressure 110 Atmospheres (~1625 PSIG).

3.25 inch long x 0.186 dia base, Horizonal operation, 75 hour lamp life (based on 25 minute burning 
periods).

Requires 840 volts at 1.4 amps. (transformer secondary 1200 volts open circuit) 120 or 240 volt primary.

4.0 second start time, 2.0 second restart time.

With 190 watts worth of photons at 3.27 eV-4.88 eV it might rival the MAHG.  :-)

Fred
----- Original Message -----  
From: Frederick Sparber 
To: vortex-l
Sent: 12/14/2005 5:36:05 AM 
Subject: Re: Einstein Frequency/Temperature & Photon-Phonon Heterodyne Action


The 3.25 inch long GE A-H6 1000 watt water-cooled Quartz Lamps provide 31 watts of uv below 280 nanometers, 75 watts in the
280-320 nm range, 90 watts 320-380 nm range, or 195 watts total uv below 380 nm.  And 290 watts in the visible 380-760 nm range.
The rest is infrared (I suppose). 
"Water-Cooled" with D2O flowing past could be interesting.

$8.79 each at this surplus outlet. If they are Quartz.

http://www.electronicsurplus.com/commerce/catalog/product.jsp;jsessionid=56CB4EDCD3F70176BD09F535A5D96092?product_id=70387&czuid=1134571800423

Fred
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<HTML style="FONT-SIZE: x-small; FONT-FAMILY: MS Sans Serif"><HEAD>
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2769" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV>
<DIV>GE&nbsp; A-H6 Lamp Data:</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Operating Pressure 110 Atmospheres (~1625 PSIG).</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>3.25 inch long x 0.186 dia base, Horizonal operation, 75 hour lamp life (based on 25 minute burning </DIV>
<DIV>periods).</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Requires 840 volts at 1.4 amps. (transformer secondary 1200 volts open circuit) 120 or 240 volt&nbsp;primary.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>4.0 second start time, 2.0 second restart time.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>With 190 watts worth of photons at 3.27 eV-4.88 eV it might rival the MAHG.&nbsp; :-)</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Fred</DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message ----- &nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=fjsparber earthlink.net href="mailto:fjsparber@earthlink.net">Frederick Sparber</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To: </B><A title=vortex-l eskimo.com href="mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com">vortex-l</A></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> 12/14/2005 5:36:05 AM </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Einstein Frequency/Temperature &amp; Photon-Phonon Heterodyne Action</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><FONT size=2>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>The 3.25 inch long GE A-H6 1000 watt water-cooled Quartz Lamps provide 31 watts of uv below 280 nanometers, 75 watts in the</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>280-320 nm range, 90 watts&nbsp;320-380 nm range, or 195 watts total uv below 380 nm.&nbsp; And 290 watts in the visible 380-760 nm range.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>The rest is infrared (I suppose).</FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>"Water-Cooled" with D2O flowing past could be interesting.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>$8.79 each at this surplus outlet. If they are Quartz.</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2><A href="http://www.electronicsurplus.com/commerce/catalog/product.jsp;jsessionid=56CB4EDCD3F70176BD09F535A5D96092?product_id=70387&amp;czuid=1134571800423">http://www.electronicsurplus.com/commerce/catalog/product.jsp;jsessionid=56CB4EDCD3F70176BD09F535A5D96092?product_id=70387&amp;czuid=1134571800423</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Fred</FONT></DIV></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 14 06:02:08 2005
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Subject: Re: Einstein Frequency/Temperature & Photon-Phonon Heterodyne Action
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 08:01:07 -0600
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Hi Fred,
May I add a word of caution on these type lamps. There are not child's =
play. One should have experience and safety training before working with =
high pressure UV lamps.
Richard
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Frederick Sparber=20
  To: vortex-l=20
  Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2005 7:23 AM
  Subject: Re: Einstein Frequency/Temperature & Photon-Phonon Heterodyne =
Action


  GE  A-H6 Lamp Data:

  Operating Pressure 110 Atmospheres (~1625 PSIG).

  3.25 inch long x 0.186 dia base, Horizonal operation, 75 hour lamp =
life (based on 25 minute burning=20
  periods).

  Requires 840 volts at 1.4 amps. (transformer secondary 1200 volts open =
circuit) 120 or 240 volt primary.

  4.0 second start time, 2.0 second restart time.

  With 190 watts worth of photons at 3.27 eV-4.88 eV it might rival the =
MAHG.  :-)

  Fred
    ----- Original Message ----- =20
    From: Frederick Sparber=20
    To: vortex-l
    Sent: 12/14/2005 5:36:05 AM=20
    Subject: Re: Einstein Frequency/Temperature & Photon-Phonon =
Heterodyne Action


    The 3.25 inch long GE A-H6 1000 watt water-cooled Quartz Lamps =
provide 31 watts of uv below 280 nanometers, 75 watts in the
    280-320 nm range, 90 watts 320-380 nm range, or 195 watts total uv =
below 380 nm.  And 290 watts in the visible 380-760 nm range.
    The rest is infrared (I suppose).=20
    "Water-Cooled" with D2O flowing past could be interesting.

    $8.79 each at this surplus outlet. If they are Quartz.

    =
http://www.electronicsurplus.com/commerce/catalog/product.jsp;jsessionid=3D=
56CB4EDCD3F70176BD09F535A5D96092?product_id=3D70387&czuid=3D1134571800423=


    Fred
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML style=3D"FONT-SIZE: x-small; FONT-FAMILY: MS Sans Serif"><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2802" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana>Hi Fred,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana>May I add a word of caution on these type =
lamps. There=20
are not child's play. One should have experience and safety training =
before=20
working with high pressure UV lamps.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana>Richard</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3Dfjsparber earthlink.net=20
  href=3D"mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net">Frederick Sparber</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dvortex-l eskimo.com=20
  href=3D"mailto:vortex-l eskimo.com">vortex-l</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, December 14, =
2005 7:23=20
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Einstein=20
  Frequency/Temperature &amp; Photon-Phonon Heterodyne Action</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV>
  <DIV>GE&nbsp; A-H6 Lamp Data:</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Operating Pressure 110 Atmospheres (~1625 PSIG).</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>3.25 inch long x 0.186 dia base, Horizonal operation, 75 hour =
lamp life=20
  (based on 25 minute burning </DIV>
  <DIV>periods).</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Requires 840 volts at 1.4 amps. (transformer secondary 1200 volts =
open=20
  circuit) 120 or 240 volt&nbsp;primary.</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>4.0 second start time, 2.0 second restart time.</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>With 190 watts worth of photons at 3.27 eV-4.88 eV it might rival =
the=20
  MAHG.&nbsp; :-)</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Fred</DIV></DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE=20
  style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid">
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message ----- =
&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV=20
    style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
    <A title=3Dfjsparber earthlink.net=20
    href=3D"mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net">Frederick Sparber</A> </DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To: </B><A =
title=3Dvortex-l eskimo.com=20
    href=3D"mailto:vortex-l eskimo.com">vortex-l</A></DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> 12/14/2005 5:36:05 AM =
</DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Einstein=20
    Frequency/Temperature &amp; Photon-Phonon Heterodyne Action</DIV>
    <DIV><BR></DIV><FONT size=3D2>
    <DIV><FONT face=3D"MS Sans Serif" size=3D2>The 3.25 inch long GE =
A-H6 1000 watt=20
    water-cooled Quartz Lamps provide 31 watts of uv below 280 =
nanometers, 75=20
    watts in the</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3D"MS Sans Serif" size=3D2>280-320 nm range, 90=20
    watts&nbsp;320-380 nm range, or 195 watts total uv below 380 =
nm.&nbsp; And=20
    290 watts in the visible 380-760 nm range.</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3D"MS Sans Serif" size=3D2>The rest is infrared (I=20
    suppose).</FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>"Water-Cooled" with D2O flowing past could be =
interesting.</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>$8.79 each at this surplus outlet. If they are Quartz.</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3D"MS Sans Serif" size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3D"MS Sans Serif" size=3D2><A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.electronicsurplus.com/commerce/catalog/product.jsp;jse=
ssionid=3D56CB4EDCD3F70176BD09F535A5D96092?product_id=3D70387&amp;czuid=3D=
1134571800423">http://www.electronicsurplus.com/commerce/catalog/product.=
jsp;jsessionid=3D56CB4EDCD3F70176BD09F535A5D96092?product_id=3D70387&amp;=
czuid=3D1134571800423</A></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3D"MS Sans Serif" size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3D"MS Sans Serif"=20
size=3D2>Fred</FONT></DIV></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>=


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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 14 06:10:21 2005
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From: "RC Macaulay" <walhalla cvtv.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <a05111b07bfc57cb0aea9 [208.50.218.143]>
Subject: Re: helium 3 fusion
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 08:09:41 -0600
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Hi Thomas,
There has been research using free electron laser (FEL) some years back in 
Russia. Any work in this area being done in the USA is under wraps. Some 
humorous side to the thought is that some grad student will come up with a 
way by using a new Bio-electro-chemistry.
Richard
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "thomas malloy" <temalloy usfamily.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2005 1:46 AM
Subject: helium 3 fusion


> One night on C to  C AM an interviewee mentioned his attempts to 
> commercialize energy production from helium 3. An official with Shell 
> warned him not to pursue the matter, and he was unable to secure funding. 
> A previous interviewee talked about mining it on the moon. There are few 
> materials which are sufficiently valuable that such a scenario would be 
> feasible, but this might be one of them. I'm wondering if isotopic 
> separation would be an option, and how the reaction might be facilitated.
>
>
> --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! --  
> http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---
>
> 


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 14 06:15:35 2005
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Subject: Re: Einstein Frequency/Temperature & Photon-Phonon Heterodyne Action
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BTW. A 4 watt quartz envelope fluorescent will give off 20% of
it's input power as uv photons below 280 nanometers as opposed to the 3% 
below 280 nanometer uv photons given off by the 1000 watt A-H6 sledgehammer.  

Fred
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Frederick Sparber 
To: vortex-l
Sent: 12/14/2005 6:23:46 AM 
Subject: Re: Einstein Frequency/Temperature & Photon-Phonon Heterodyne Action


GE  A-H6 Lamp Data:

Operating Pressure 110 Atmospheres (~1625 PSIG).

3.25 inch long x 0.186 dia base, Horizonal operation, 75 hour lamp life (based on 25 minute burning 
periods).

Requires 840 volts at 1.4 amps. (transformer secondary 1200 volts open circuit) 120 or 240 volt primary.

4.0 second start time, 2.0 second restart time.

With 190 watts worth of photons at 3.27 eV-4.88 eV it might rival the MAHG.  :-)

Fred
----- Original Message -----  
From: Frederick Sparber 
To: vortex-l
Sent: 12/14/2005 5:36:05 AM 
Subject: Re: Einstein Frequency/Temperature & Photon-Phonon Heterodyne Action


The 3.25 inch long GE A-H6 1000 watt water-cooled Quartz Lamps provide 31 watts of uv below 280 nanometers, 75 watts in the
280-320 nm range, 90 watts 320-380 nm range, or 195 watts total uv below 380 nm.  And 290 watts in the visible 380-760 nm range.
The rest is infrared (I suppose). 
"Water-Cooled" with D2O flowing past could be interesting.

$8.79 each at this surplus outlet. If they are Quartz.

http://www.electronicsurplus.com/commerce/catalog/product.jsp;jsessionid=56CB4EDCD3F70176BD09F535A5D96092?product_id=70387&czuid=1134571800423

Fred
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<HTML style="FONT-SIZE: x-small; FONT-FAMILY: MS Sans Serif"><HEAD>
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<BODY>
<DIV>
<DIV>BTW. A 4&nbsp;watt quartz envelope fluorescent will give off 20% of</DIV>
<DIV>it's input power as uv photons below 280 nanometers as opposed to the 3% </DIV>
<DIV>below 280 nanometer uv photons given off by the 1000 watt A-H6 sledgehammer.&nbsp; </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Fred</DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=fjsparber earthlink.net href="mailto:fjsparber@earthlink.net">Frederick Sparber</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To: </B><A title=vortex-l eskimo.com href="mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com">vortex-l</A></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> 12/14/2005 6:23:46 AM </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Einstein Frequency/Temperature &amp; Photon-Phonon Heterodyne Action</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><FONT size=2>
<DIV>
<DIV>GE&nbsp; A-H6 Lamp Data:</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Operating Pressure 110 Atmospheres (~1625 PSIG).</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>3.25 inch long x 0.186 dia base, Horizonal operation, 75 hour lamp life (based on 25 minute burning </DIV>
<DIV>periods).</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Requires 840 volts at 1.4 amps. (transformer secondary 1200 volts open circuit) 120 or 240 volt&nbsp;primary.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>4.0 second start time, 2.0 second restart time.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>With 190 watts worth of photons at 3.27 eV-4.88 eV it might rival the MAHG.&nbsp; :-)</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Fred</DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message ----- &nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=fjsparber earthlink.net href="mailto:fjsparber@earthlink.net">Frederick Sparber</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To: </B><A title=vortex-l eskimo.com href="mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com">vortex-l</A></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> 12/14/2005 5:36:05 AM </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Einstein Frequency/Temperature &amp; Photon-Phonon Heterodyne Action</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><FONT size=2>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>The 3.25 inch long GE A-H6 1000 watt water-cooled Quartz Lamps provide 31 watts of uv below 280 nanometers, 75 watts in the</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>280-320 nm range, 90 watts&nbsp;320-380 nm range, or 195 watts total uv below 380 nm.&nbsp; And 290 watts in the visible 380-760 nm range.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>The rest is infrared (I suppose).</FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>"Water-Cooled" with D2O flowing past could be interesting.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>$8.79 each at this surplus outlet. If they are Quartz.</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2><A href="http://www.electronicsurplus.com/commerce/catalog/product.jsp;jsessionid=56CB4EDCD3F70176BD09F535A5D96092?product_id=70387&amp;czuid=1134571800423">http://www.electronicsurplus.com/commerce/catalog/product.jsp;jsessionid=56CB4EDCD3F70176BD09F535A5D96092?product_id=70387&amp;czuid=1134571800423</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Fred</FONT></DIV></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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One way to get rid of those Bible Thumping Sex Maniacs on Vortex, Richard.  :-)

Fred
----- Original Message ----- 
From: RC Macaulay 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Sent: 12/14/2005 7:02:30 AM 
Subject: Re: Einstein Frequency/Temperature & Photon-Phonon Heterodyne Action


Hi Fred,
May I add a word of caution on these type lamps. There are not child's play. One should have experience and safety training before working with high pressure UV lamps.
Richard
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Frederick Sparber 
To: vortex-l 
Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2005 7:23 AM
Subject: Re: Einstein Frequency/Temperature & Photon-Phonon Heterodyne Action


GE  A-H6 Lamp Data:

Operating Pressure 110 Atmospheres (~1625 PSIG).

3.25 inch long x 0.186 dia base, Horizonal operation, 75 hour lamp life (based on 25 minute burning 
periods).

Requires 840 volts at 1.4 amps. (transformer secondary 1200 volts open circuit) 120 or 240 volt primary.

4.0 second start time, 2.0 second restart time.

With 190 watts worth of photons at 3.27 eV-4.88 eV it might rival the MAHG.  :-)

Fred
----- Original Message -----  
From: Frederick Sparber 
To: vortex-l
Sent: 12/14/2005 5:36:05 AM 
Subject: Re: Einstein Frequency/Temperature & Photon-Phonon Heterodyne Action


The 3.25 inch long GE A-H6 1000 watt water-cooled Quartz Lamps provide 31 watts of uv below 280 nanometers, 75 watts in the
280-320 nm range, 90 watts 320-380 nm range, or 195 watts total uv below 380 nm.  And 290 watts in the visible 380-760 nm range.
The rest is infrared (I suppose). 
"Water-Cooled" with D2O flowing past could be interesting.

$8.79 each at this surplus outlet. If they are Quartz.

http://www.electronicsurplus.com/commerce/catalog/product.jsp;jsessionid=56CB4EDCD3F70176BD09F535A5D96092?product_id=70387&czuid=1134571800423

Fred
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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV>
<DIV>One way to get rid of those Bible Thumping Sex Maniacs on Vortex, Richard.&nbsp; :-)</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Fred</DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=walhalla cvtv.net href="mailto:walhalla@cvtv.net">RC Macaulay</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To: </B><A title=vortex-l eskimo.com href="mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com">vortex-l@eskimo.com</A></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> 12/14/2005 7:02:30 AM </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Einstein Frequency/Temperature &amp; Photon-Phonon Heterodyne Action</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><FONT size=2>
<DIV><FONT face=Verdana>Hi Fred,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Verdana>May I add a word of caution on these type lamps. There are not child's play. One should have experience and safety training before working with high pressure UV lamps.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Verdana>Richard</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=fjsparber earthlink.net href="mailto:fjsparber@earthlink.net">Frederick Sparber</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=vortex-l eskimo.com href="mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com">vortex-l</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, December 14, 2005 7:23 AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Einstein Frequency/Temperature &amp; Photon-Phonon Heterodyne Action</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>GE&nbsp; A-H6 Lamp Data:</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Operating Pressure 110 Atmospheres (~1625 PSIG).</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>3.25 inch long x 0.186 dia base, Horizonal operation, 75 hour lamp life (based on 25 minute burning </DIV>
<DIV>periods).</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Requires 840 volts at 1.4 amps. (transformer secondary 1200 volts open circuit) 120 or 240 volt&nbsp;primary.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>4.0 second start time, 2.0 second restart time.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>With 190 watts worth of photons at 3.27 eV-4.88 eV it might rival the MAHG.&nbsp; :-)</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Fred</DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message ----- &nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=fjsparber earthlink.net href="mailto:fjsparber@earthlink.net">Frederick Sparber</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To: </B><A title=vortex-l eskimo.com href="mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com">vortex-l</A></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> 12/14/2005 5:36:05 AM </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Einstein Frequency/Temperature &amp; Photon-Phonon Heterodyne Action</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><FONT size=2>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>The 3.25 inch long GE A-H6 1000 watt water-cooled Quartz Lamps provide 31 watts of uv below 280 nanometers, 75 watts in the</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>280-320 nm range, 90 watts&nbsp;320-380 nm range, or 195 watts total uv below 380 nm.&nbsp; And 290 watts in the visible 380-760 nm range.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>The rest is infrared (I suppose).</FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>"Water-Cooled" with D2O flowing past could be interesting.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>$8.79 each at this surplus outlet. If they are Quartz.</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2><A href="http://www.electronicsurplus.com/commerce/catalog/product.jsp;jsessionid=56CB4EDCD3F70176BD09F535A5D96092?product_id=70387&amp;czuid=1134571800423">http://www.electronicsurplus.com/commerce/catalog/product.jsp;jsessionid=56CB4EDCD3F70176BD09F535A5D96092?product_id=70387&amp;czuid=1134571800423</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Fred</FONT></DIV></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8--


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 14 06:32:07 2005
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From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: RE: OffTopic: Lust and the bible
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V,
Out of interest, what kicked off this whole discussion? Was somebody caught
with their pants down?

Look the Latins, pagans and other religions don't have these Anglo-Saxon
problems a man is a man, right... So what if he's married and has an au-pair
or two? It's the double standard and it's a man's world (or take a look at
the antics of divorced older women, I guess they catch up).

You know, St Paul really did it in for Christianity, the misogynistic little
politico.
R.

-----Original Message-----
From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On
Behalf Of thomas malloy
Sent: 14 December 2005 10:15
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: OffTopic: Lust and the bible

Vortexians;

I found the response to this thread interesting, it was as if I'd 
been subscribed to a religious list.

Sexual immorality is any sexual activity other than that between a 
married couple. Lust is forbidden by Yeshua. He is clearly using the 
word as something stronger than something that you simply want.

I realize that other religious systems have love your neighbor as 
yourself as a tenant. There are lots of elements of the Christian 
religion which had common elements in older pagan religions. There 
are two ways to look at this; one is Universalism, all religions lead 
to salvation, the other view is that  Satan is a clever counterfeiter.

>Harry Veeder wrote:
>>
>>
>>1.    Can a Christian lust and still be qualified to enter into the 
>>Kingdom of God?

Yes but only if you repent.

>Otherwise, you'll need to do some purgatory time, but after that 
>you're cleared for takeoff on the runway to Heaven.

I thought that the Roman Church had repented of purgatory

>
>>2.    Can a man or a woman lust for their mate, yet without sin?
>

Lust implies sexual desire. This is one thing if both of the people 
are single, but if one of them are married, it is sin.

>
>>3.    Is lusting a sin?

yes

>
>>4.    Do you really know the difference between lust and desire?

I think that the difference is obvious.

>>5.    If you lust for something, would your Maker grant it to you?

He might, if it pleases him.

>>6.    If you caught yourself lusting should you repent of it?

There is no forgiveness of sin without repentance.

>>7.    Does God, Christ, and all the holy angels ever lust?

A holy, kadosh, G-d, cannot allow that which is unholy in his 
kingdom. The angels and the Sons of G-d who lusted left heaven

>>Those who are spirit beings, those who are Holy, perfect, and righteous?

The ones who lusted left heaven long ago and came here. According to 
the Book of Enoch, they are imprisoned here awaiting judgment.

>
>Regarding (7.): Yes, of course, angels do.  See Genesis 6:1-4 for more
info.
>
>But that's a very concise treatment of the story.  For a longer and 
>more explicit version see 1 Enoch 6-7, followed by additional 
>references throughout the following chapters up to 1 Enoch 71.  (1 
>Enoch is an early first century Jewish work which appears to have 
>been treated as ... um, well, gospel,

We believe that the Enoch in the title is the Enoch mentioned in 
Genesis. Noah brought a copy with him on the ark.

>  I guess you'd call it ... by many in the early Church, certainly 
>including St. Jude, who quotes from it, and possibly including Paul 
>himself.  It was considered a sacred book by the Christian church in 
>Ethiopia for centuries.)

My rabbi agrees.

>For a bit more on Satan/Lucipher and his feelings in various matters 
>see the Life of Adam and Eve 12-16.  He's apparently a very 
>emotional guy, and quite proud, and feels he really got shafted by 
>God.  (LoA&E is also a 1st century work, which incorporates 
>longstanding traditions surrounding the events in the Bible.)

Leave it up to Lucifer to believe that. He started out with pride, 
and then he lied, and then he murdered. Tonight's interviewee on C to 
C AM is talking about Zachuriah Sitchens who has written a book about 
some Sumerian clay tablets that he translated. He tells a story about 
an extra terresterial race called the Ananaki, who created humans to 
be their slaves. Sitchen's story continues with the usual New Age B 
S.  Satan has a long history of writing books which deceive people. 
IMHO, this is one of the finest examples of his art.

>And who, by the way, ever said angels are "perfect"?

A holy G-d cannot tolerate that which is unholy in his kingdom.

>
>>
>>Don't be too quick to answer. Remember, all of our background came 
>>from our parents, culture, and our society.

>Take yourself out of our culture and into some other where "lust" 
>and "sin" aren't all tangled up together and where "Christ" is just 
>a word with no meaning and nobody's ever heard parables about the 
>"Kingdom of Heaven", and you'll have trouble even understanding what 
>those questions are supposed to mean.

You're making several assumptions, and you know what happens when you 
assume. If there is no creator, and he has no interest in making the 
Earth holy, then you can write the story off as a parable.


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> From: thomas malloy 

Greetings Thomas,

> Vortexians;
> 
> I found the response to this thread interesting, it was
> as if I'd been subscribed to a religious list.

I think you're right on that one. (Some are complaining about this too! They might have a point.)

...

> I realize that other religious systems have love your
> neighbor as yourself as a tenant. There are lots of
> elements of the Christian religion which had common
> elements in older pagan religions. There are two ways
> to look at this; one is Universalism, all religions lead
> to salvation, the other view is that  Satan is a clever
> counterfeiter.

Within the context of capitalism "brand loyalty" seems to be worth fighting for. Never the less, do you believe all those commercials you hear on the radio and TV that say not to accept the claims of other brands other than theirs as the genuine product?

And then, there's the phrase: Accept no other god other than me as the true god.

It would seem that within your perception of reality Satan is indeed a very clever fellow.

It would seem that, for you, brand loyalty is worth fighting for (I'm not speaking in the most literal terms here), where the final body count is everything.

How do you know you've chosen the right brand?

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 14 08:43:30 2005
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From: Standing Bear <rockcast earthlink.net>
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Subject: Re: OffTopic: Lust and the bible
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This Linux user must have killed over a hundred letters on this parasitic off 
topic thread.  It has of late been stuffing our mailboxes with its old oil in 
not even new bottles.  According to one of the letters even the saintly 
ex-president Carter would 'go to hell' for 'lusting in his heart..'.  
Personally I like the old geezer for helping the poor, even if I condemn him
for handing the American Panama Canal to the red Chinese 'people's army' 
on a plate;  and allowing thousands of traitorous draft dodgin turncoats to 
not only walk free but step in front of real American Veterans in job and 
benefit programs.  Even convicts came before veterans for awhile 
('economically and socially disadvantaged').  This thread is really spam.  
It is attracting Vortexians into its spiderweb with the alluring illusion of 
the challenge of a 'debate'.  The originator of the posting started the ball 
rolling by replying to his own post, I found out when cleaning the history and
my hard drive space of this dogmatic drivel.  There is no debate but only 
dogma repeated endlessly as in a broken phonograph record of old.  Those
of us that engage in this debate become as those who would get into a 
sty and fight with pigs.  The pigs love it and the would be 'trainers' only
get dirty.  The listmaster should really kill this thread and take whatever
actions necessary to see it does'nt return.  Incidentally, the originator 
whose name I will not repeat knows who he is, and he also has been 
placing commercial messages on this list as well.  I have kept over eleven
thousand messages to the list over the past year or two.....just don't
delete 'em as there is a wealth of info about possible leads to scientific
discoveries. But I make an exception to out and out dogmatic drivel.
I wonder if this is what Lenin spoke of when he said that: ".. Religion was
the opiate of the people"...;   and I might add that this opiate was
carefully administered by ruling classes that never accepted those
dogmas for themselves. 
                                  Its all there in various 'holy books'. They
all say the same basic things.  They all probably came from a single
source, a now lost and long forgotten 'holy book' that was actually 
a rule book created by our bio-engineers long ago.  From this our
earliest sentient ancestors about 14000 years ago were instructed
in ways to live in order to:  survive and lead healthy lives;  and not
inbreed and ruin the genetic programming engineered into the 
homo erectus robustii that had been the seeds for alien DNA transplantation
project.  The instruction was most likely verbal as the newly incubated
changlelings would not yet have a written language to go with their
newly acquired speech ability.  An original language was probably 
taught them before the 'code of living' was given them.  Once having
the knowledge necessary for successful colonization of this planet, the
subjects were released into the natural environment (the 'garden of eden').
Who knows, 'eden' or some sound like it probably meant something
in the alien language.  The new 'men' then found .....other people??!?....
to mate with and begin the chain of 'begats' found in every 'holy book'
in the world.  From there the tales diverge into fantasy, but that fantasy
includes the basic teachings:   don't kill each other (makes sense if one
wants his 'people' to survive);  don't steal;  don't do genetic crimes to
interfere with the DNA templates;  you are a 'member of _______religion
because your MOTHER was (the real code is in the mitochondria);  don't
eat 'unclean meats' usually meaning pork (some kind of pig DNA was
probably also used to fill in certain gaps or for genetic interfacing with
alien and robustian DNA somewhere....this dictum appears in more
than several 'holy' codexes).  I mean really folks, these hucksters came
to a scientific site to trash it and pollute it.  Are they really so stupid as
to lack the ability to concieve of an intelligence greater than themselves?
Do they really believe thier own lies and dogmas so much that they are
unable to imagine a successful challenge?  Did they think that we would
fall victim to propagandists cloaked in religions?  Did they think us
superstitious?  Or is the idea to simply clog the list with endless and 
fruitless 'dialogs of the deaf', eventually driving out the members from our
little corner of the world and scattering us so that the real ideas we
discuss will no longer have a forum.
  I will not leave!, but I can screen them.  Under linux, keywords appearing
anywhere in any header can be used as mail filters.  These 'keywords
can contain punctuation marks, parts of HTML commands, etc.  Religious
spammers are just like porn spammers, drug pushers, phishers and
virus vendors in that they have a limited vocabulary:  just like we filter
on four letter words and combinations and mispellings of the same to 
ban porners; or filter on drug names for pushers; or filter on 'values', 'buy'
or 'credit' for loansharks and hot goods pushers;  religious sharks use
lots of 'God' (may be not capitolized or use different names for the 'diety'),
'save' (just like salesmen), 'salvation', 'sin', 'lust' (just like porners), 
'adultery' (again just like porners)....you know the drill.  Use enough of
those and delete them and...voila...the world is clean again of their filth.
   And oh, yeah, if our list is really under attack, these folks won't let go 
easy.  They will use junk in the titles and spoofed return addresses and 
forged headers while inundating us......just like spammers.  Religious 
fanatics have murdured millions throughout history.  It is one place our
bioengineers made a mistake in our genetic code, allowing the genes
for murder of one's own species members, genes that are present in
today's great apes like the chimpanzees, to continue.  Perhaps our
bioengineers did not know these genes existed because they did not stay long
enough on our planet to do more thorough studies of candidate
species for aliotransplantation.  One wonders if these aliens were
able to time travel as well.  They would then have had and yet have
the ability to look in on us from time to time.  Like maybe we are/were
an alien tourist attraction?!  But if that is true, then what does that say
also about them?  Certainly not anything ethically or morally good!
   But then if we are a tourist attraction, the 'keepers' would want to 
make certain that the 'animals' never get out of the cage....that is
gain the ability for space travel.  Maybe that is behind the present
administration's sudden newfound love for old chemical rocket
tech that is prone to failure.

Enough rant for one day!

Standing Bear




On Wednesday 14 December 2005 08:53, R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk wrote:
> V,
> Out of interest, what kicked off this whole discussion? Was somebody caught
> with their pants down?
>
> Look the Latins, pagans and other religions don't have these Anglo-Saxon
> problems a man is a man, right... So what if he's married and has an
> au-pair or two? It's the double standard and it's a man's world (or take a
> look at the antics of divorced older women, I guess they catch up).
>
> You know, St Paul really did it in for Christianity, the misogynistic
> little politico.
> R.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On
> Behalf Of thomas malloy
> Sent: 14 December 2005 10:15
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: Re: OffTopic: Lust and the bible
>
> Vortexians;
>
> I found the response to this thread interesting, it was as if I'd
> been subscribed to a religious list.
>
> Sexual immorality is any sexual activity other than that between a
> married couple. Lust is forbidden by Yeshua. He is clearly using the
> word as something stronger than something that you simply want.
>
> I realize that other religious systems have love your neighbor as
> yourself as a tenant. There are lots of elements of the Christian
> religion which had common elements in older pagan religions. There
> are two ways to look at this; one is Universalism, all religions lead
> to salvation, the other view is that  Satan is a clever counterfeiter.
>
> >Harry Veeder wrote:
> >>1.    Can a Christian lust and still be qualified to enter into the
> >>Kingdom of God?
>
> Yes but only if you repent.
>
> >Otherwise, you'll need to do some purgatory time, but after that
> >you're cleared for takeoff on the runway to Heaven.
>
> I thought that the Roman Church had repented of purgatory
>
> >>2.    Can a man or a woman lust for their mate, yet without sin?
>
> Lust implies sexual desire. This is one thing if both of the people
> are single, but if one of them are married, it is sin.
>
> >>3.    Is lusting a sin?
>
> yes
>
> >>4.    Do you really know the difference between lust and desire?
>
> I think that the difference is obvious.
>
> >>5.    If you lust for something, would your Maker grant it to you?
>
> He might, if it pleases him.
>
> >>6.    If you caught yourself lusting should you repent of it?
>
> There is no forgiveness of sin without repentance.
>
> >>7.    Does God, Christ, and all the holy angels ever lust?
>
> A holy, kadosh, G-d, cannot allow that which is unholy in his
> kingdom. The angels and the Sons of G-d who lusted left heaven
>
> >>Those who are spirit beings, those who are Holy, perfect, and righteous?
>
> The ones who lusted left heaven long ago and came here. According to
> the Book of Enoch, they are imprisoned here awaiting judgment.
>
> >Regarding (7.): Yes, of course, angels do.  See Genesis 6:1-4 for more
>
> info.
>
> >But that's a very concise treatment of the story.  For a longer and
> >more explicit version see 1 Enoch 6-7, followed by additional
> >references throughout the following chapters up to 1 Enoch 71.  (1
> >Enoch is an early first century Jewish work which appears to have
> >been treated as ... um, well, gospel,
>
> We believe that the Enoch in the title is the Enoch mentioned in
> Genesis. Noah brought a copy with him on the ark.
>
> >  I guess you'd call it ... by many in the early Church, certainly
> >including St. Jude, who quotes from it, and possibly including Paul
> >himself.  It was considered a sacred book by the Christian church in
> >Ethiopia for centuries.)
>
> My rabbi agrees.
>
> >For a bit more on Satan/Lucipher and his feelings in various matters
> >see the Life of Adam and Eve 12-16.  He's apparently a very
> >emotional guy, and quite proud, and feels he really got shafted by
> >God.  (LoA&E is also a 1st century work, which incorporates
> >longstanding traditions surrounding the events in the Bible.)
>
> Leave it up to Lucifer to believe that. He started out with pride,
> and then he lied, and then he murdered. Tonight's interviewee on C to
> C AM is talking about Zachuriah Sitchens who has written a book about
> some Sumerian clay tablets that he translated. He tells a story about
> an extra terresterial race called the Ananaki, who created humans to
> be their slaves. Sitchen's story continues with the usual New Age B
> S.  Satan has a long history of writing books which deceive people.
> IMHO, this is one of the finest examples of his art.
>
> >And who, by the way, ever said angels are "perfect"?
>
> A holy G-d cannot tolerate that which is unholy in his kingdom.
>
> >>Don't be too quick to answer. Remember, all of our background came
> >>from our parents, culture, and our society.
> >
> >Take yourself out of our culture and into some other where "lust"
> >and "sin" aren't all tangled up together and where "Christ" is just
> >a word with no meaning and nobody's ever heard parables about the
> >"Kingdom of Heaven", and you'll have trouble even understanding what
> >those questions are supposed to mean.
>
> You're making several assumptions, and you know what happens when you
> assume. If there is no creator, and he has no interest in making the
> Earth holy, then you can write the story off as a parable.
>
>
> --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! --
> http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---

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From: "John Steck" <johnsteck tetrahelix.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Einstein Frequency/Temperature & Photon-Phonon Heterodyne Action
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 10:49:56 -0600
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Come on Fred, people that type that much don't have much time for stuff =
like
research or experiments.  8^)
=20
I do applaud your perpetual never-say-die effort to try and keep the =
science
in this 'science' discussion group though.  I am glad the nonsense =
hasn't
quite chased you off yet.
=20
-john
=20
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net]=20
Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2005 8:25 AM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Einstein Frequency/Temperature & Photon-Phonon Heterodyne
Action


One way to get rid of those Bible Thumping Sex Maniacs on Vortex, =
Richard.
:-)
=20
Fred

----- Original Message -----=20
From: RC Macaulay <mailto:walhalla cvtv.net> =20
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Sent: 12/14/2005 7:02:30 AM=20
Subject: Re: Einstein Frequency/Temperature & Photon-Phonon Heterodyne
Action

Hi Fred,
May I add a word of caution on these type lamps. There are not child's =
play.
One should have experience and safety training before working with high
pressure UV lamps.
Richard

----- Original Message -----=20
From: Frederick Sparber <mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net> =20
To: vortex-l <mailto:vortex-l eskimo.com> =20
Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2005 7:23 AM
Subject: Re: Einstein Frequency/Temperature & Photon-Phonon Heterodyne
Action

GE  A-H6 Lamp Data:
=20
Operating Pressure 110 Atmospheres (~1625 PSIG).
=20
3.25 inch long x 0.186 dia base, Horizonal operation, 75 hour lamp life
(based on 25 minute burning=20
periods).
=20
Requires 840 volts at 1.4 amps. (transformer secondary 1200 volts open
circuit) 120 or 240 volt primary.
=20
4.0 second start time, 2.0 second restart time.
=20
With 190 watts worth of photons at 3.27 eV-4.88 eV it might rival the =
MAHG.
:-)
=20
Fred

----- Original Message ----- =20
From: Frederick Sparber <mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net> =20
To: vortex-l <mailto:vortex-l eskimo.com>=20
Sent: 12/14/2005 5:36:05 AM=20
Subject: Re: Einstein Frequency/Temperature & Photon-Phonon Heterodyne
Action

The 3.25 inch long GE A-H6 1000 watt water-cooled Quartz Lamps provide =
31
watts of uv below 280 nanometers, 75 watts in the
280-320 nm range, 90 watts 320-380 nm range, or 195 watts total uv below =
380
nm.  And 290 watts in the visible 380-760 nm range.
The rest is infrared (I suppose).=20
"Water-Cooled" with D2O flowing past could be interesting.
=20
$8.79 each at this surplus outlet. If they are Quartz.
=20
http://www.electronicsurplus.com/commerce/catalog/product.jsp;jsessionid=3D=
56C
B4EDCD3F70176BD09F535A5D96092?product_id=3D70387
<http://www.electronicsurplus.com/commerce/catalog/product.jsp;jsessionid=
=3D56
CB4EDCD3F70176BD09F535A5D96092?product_id=3D70387&czuid=3D1134571800423>
&czuid=3D1134571800423
=20
Fred


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<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
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<TITLE>Message</TITLE>

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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D672423816-14122005><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff>Come on Fred,=20
people that type that much don't have much time for stuff like research =
or=20
experiments.&nbsp; 8^)</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D672423816-14122005><FONT face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D672423816-14122005><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff>I do applaud=20
your perpetual never-say-die effort to try and keep the science in this=20
'science' discussion group though.&nbsp; I am glad the nonsense hasn't =
quite=20
chased you off yet.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D672423816-14122005><FONT face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D672423816-14122005><FONT face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff>-john</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D672423816-14122005><FONT face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D672423816-14122005><FONT face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft><FONT=20
face=3DTahoma>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Frederick =
Sparber=20
[mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, December =
14, 2005=20
8:25 AM<BR><B>To:</B> vortex-l eskimo.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: =
Einstein=20
Frequency/Temperature &amp; Photon-Phonon Heterodyne =
Action<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>One way to get rid of those Bible Thumping Sex Maniacs on Vortex,=20
Richard.&nbsp; :-)</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Fred</DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3Dwalhalla cvtv.net href=3D"mailto:walhalla@cvtv.net">RC =
Macaulay</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To: </B><A =
title=3Dvortex-l eskimo.com=20
  href=3D"mailto:vortex-l eskimo.com">vortex-l@eskimo.com</A></DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> 12/14/2005 7:02:30 AM =
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Einstein=20
  Frequency/Temperature &amp; Photon-Phonon Heterodyne Action</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana>Hi Fred,</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana>May I add a word of caution on these type =
lamps. There=20
  are not child's play. One should have experience and safety training =
before=20
  working with high pressure UV lamps.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana>Richard</FONT></DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
  style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
    <DIV=20
    style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
    <A title=3Dfjsparber earthlink.net=20
    href=3D"mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net">Frederick Sparber</A> </DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dvortex-l eskimo.com=20
    href=3D"mailto:vortex-l eskimo.com">vortex-l</A> </DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, December 14, =
2005 7:23=20
    AM</DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Einstein=20
    Frequency/Temperature &amp; Photon-Phonon Heterodyne Action</DIV>
    <DIV><BR></DIV>
    <DIV>
    <DIV>GE&nbsp; A-H6 Lamp Data:</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>Operating Pressure 110 Atmospheres (~1625 PSIG).</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>3.25 inch long x 0.186 dia base, Horizonal operation, 75 hour =
lamp life=20
    (based on 25 minute burning </DIV>
    <DIV>periods).</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>Requires 840 volts at 1.4 amps. (transformer secondary 1200 =
volts open=20
    circuit) 120 or 240 volt&nbsp;primary.</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>4.0 second start time, 2.0 second restart time.</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>With 190 watts worth of photons at 3.27 eV-4.88 eV it might =
rival the=20
    MAHG.&nbsp; :-)</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>Fred</DIV></DIV>
    <BLOCKQUOTE=20
    style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid">
      <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message ----- =
&nbsp;</DIV>
      <DIV=20
      style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
      <A title=3Dfjsparber earthlink.net=20
      href=3D"mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net">Frederick Sparber</A> =
</DIV>
      <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To: </B><A =
title=3Dvortex-l eskimo.com=20
      href=3D"mailto:vortex-l eskimo.com">vortex-l</A></DIV>
      <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> 12/14/2005 5:36:05 AM =
</DIV>
      <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Einstein=20
      Frequency/Temperature &amp; Photon-Phonon Heterodyne Action</DIV>
      <DIV><BR></DIV>
      <DIV><FONT face=3D"MS Sans Serif">The 3.25 inch long GE A-H6 1000 =
watt=20
      water-cooled Quartz Lamps provide 31 watts of uv below 280 =
nanometers, 75=20
      watts in the</FONT></DIV>
      <DIV><FONT face=3D"MS Sans Serif">280-320 nm range, 90 =
watts&nbsp;320-380 nm=20
      range, or 195 watts total uv below 380 nm.&nbsp; And 290 watts in =
the=20
      visible 380-760 nm range.</FONT></DIV>
      <DIV><FONT face=3D"MS Sans Serif">The rest is infrared (I=20
      suppose).</FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
      <DIV>"Water-Cooled" with D2O flowing past could be =
interesting.</DIV>
      <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
      <DIV>$8.79 each at this surplus outlet. If they are Quartz.</DIV>
      <DIV><FONT face=3D"MS Sans Serif"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
      <DIV><FONT face=3D"MS Sans Serif"><A=20
      =
href=3D"http://www.electronicsurplus.com/commerce/catalog/product.jsp;jse=
ssionid=3D56CB4EDCD3F70176BD09F535A5D96092?product_id=3D70387&amp;czuid=3D=
1134571800423">http://www.electronicsurplus.com/commerce/catalog/product.=
jsp;jsessionid=3D56CB4EDCD3F70176BD09F535A5D96092?product_id=3D70387&amp;=
czuid=3D1134571800423</A></FONT></DIV>
      <DIV><FONT face=3D"MS Sans Serif"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
      <DIV><FONT=20
face=3D"MS Sans =
Serif">Fred</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></H=
TML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 14 09:34:45 2005
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: RE: DON'T PANIC!
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 10:33:15 -0700
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A short term effort that I practice, John, is to throw every bit of
biodegradeable
material I can  into the trash bin headed to landfill. Do that with all of
the agro-produced
waste (that normally oxidizes aerobically) in area repositories and there
will be
significant amounts of "Natural Gas" CH4 available in a couple of decades.

Fred

> [Original Message]
> From: John Steck <johnsteck tetrahelix.com>
> To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> Date: 12/14/2005 9:55:10 AM
> Subject: RE: DON'T PANIC!
>
> There are theories that petroleum is a by-product of chemical reactions
> taking place sub-surface and percolating up through the bedrock.  It's a
> theory postulated to explain why tapped out oil fields have been
discovered
> to be filling back up.
>
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0387985468/026-0122312-6851655
>
> If true, peak oil will have to be redefined as the rate of consumption vs.
> rate of replenishment.  Might not help this civilization, but a few
hundred
> thousand years should be enough to refill the tanks for the next one to
> emerge after the next ice age / flood / asteroid cleansing.  Hopefully
they
> will be prudent enough not to smelt down all the circuit boards in the
trash
> heaps for their precious metal content before they are smart enough to
> decode our legacy from them.
>
> Wow.  Sorry about that.  Just bummed myself out....  My cynicism valve
seems
> to be stuck in the open position this morning.
>
> -john
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: hohlrauml6d netscape.net [mailto:hohlrauml6d@netscape.net] 
> Sent: Monday, December 12, 2005 9:05 PM
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: DON'T PANIC!
>
>
> http://www.sacbee.com/content/opinion/story/13949592p-14784245c.html
>
> Saudi "proven" reserves are shown at 262.7 billion barrels. In 1989, 
> Saudi "proven" reserves were reported at 260 billion barrels. No 
> significant fields have been discovered since then. How does one 
> explain the current reserve? Kuwait's Burgan Field (the second-largest 
> on Earth) has peaked and is in decline.
>
> <more>
>
> Keep your towel handy. ___________________________________________________
> Try the New Netscape Mail Today!
> Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List
> http://mail.netscape.com
>



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 14 09:36:04 2005
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From: "John Steck" <johnsteck tetrahelix.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: DON'T PANIC!
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 10:49:56 -0600
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There are theories that petroleum is a by-product of chemical reactions
taking place sub-surface and percolating up through the bedrock.  It's a
theory postulated to explain why tapped out oil fields have been discovered
to be filling back up.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0387985468/026-0122312-6851655

If true, peak oil will have to be redefined as the rate of consumption vs.
rate of replenishment.  Might not help this civilization, but a few hundred
thousand years should be enough to refill the tanks for the next one to
emerge after the next ice age / flood / asteroid cleansing.  Hopefully they
will be prudent enough not to smelt down all the circuit boards in the trash
heaps for their precious metal content before they are smart enough to
decode our legacy from them.

Wow.  Sorry about that.  Just bummed myself out....  My cynicism valve seems
to be stuck in the open position this morning.

-john







-----Original Message-----
From: hohlrauml6d netscape.net [mailto:hohlrauml6d@netscape.net] 
Sent: Monday, December 12, 2005 9:05 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: DON'T PANIC!


http://www.sacbee.com/content/opinion/story/13949592p-14784245c.html

Saudi "proven" reserves are shown at 262.7 billion barrels. In 1989, 
Saudi "proven" reserves were reported at 260 billion barrels. No 
significant fields have been discovered since then. How does one 
explain the current reserve? Kuwait's Burgan Field (the second-largest 
on Earth) has peaked and is in decline.

<more>

Keep your towel handy. ___________________________________________________
Try the New Netscape Mail Today!
Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List
http://mail.netscape.com


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Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 12:57:47 -0500
From: Harry Veeder <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: OffTopic: Lust and the bible
In-reply-to: <2B4BE0070968EA45845CF7075B0CF3C8012D9936 generalems.bton.ac.uk>
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I wanted people to consider the nature and value of lust.
Harry

R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk wrote:

> V,
> Out of interest, what kicked off this whole discussion? Was somebody caught
> with their pants down?
> 
> Look the Latins, pagans and other religions don't have these Anglo-Saxon
> problems a man is a man, right... So what if he's married and has an au-pair
> or two? It's the double standard and it's a man's world (or take a look at
> the antics of divorced older women, I guess they catch up).
> 
> You know, St Paul really did it in for Christianity, the misogynistic little
> politico.
> R.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On
> Behalf Of thomas malloy
> Sent: 14 December 2005 10:15
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: Re: OffTopic: Lust and the bible
> 
> Vortexians;
> 
> I found the response to this thread interesting, it was as if I'd
> been subscribed to a religious list.
> 
> Sexual immorality is any sexual activity other than that between a
> married couple. Lust is forbidden by Yeshua. He is clearly using the
> word as something stronger than something that you simply want.
> 
> I realize that other religious systems have love your neighbor as
> yourself as a tenant. There are lots of elements of the Christian
> religion which had common elements in older pagan religions. There
> are two ways to look at this; one is Universalism, all religions lead
> to salvation, the other view is that  Satan is a clever counterfeiter.
> 
>> Harry Veeder wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 1.    Can a Christian lust and still be qualified to enter into the
>>> Kingdom of God?
> 
> Yes but only if you repent.
> 
>> Otherwise, you'll need to do some purgatory time, but after that
>> you're cleared for takeoff on the runway to Heaven.
> 
> I thought that the Roman Church had repented of purgatory
> 
>> 
>>> 2.    Can a man or a woman lust for their mate, yet without sin?
>> 
> 
> Lust implies sexual desire. This is one thing if both of the people
> are single, but if one of them are married, it is sin.
> 
>> 
>>> 3.    Is lusting a sin?
> 
> yes
> 
>> 
>>> 4.    Do you really know the difference between lust and desire?
> 
> I think that the difference is obvious.
> 
>>> 5.    If you lust for something, would your Maker grant it to you?
> 
> He might, if it pleases him.
> 
>>> 6.    If you caught yourself lusting should you repent of it?
> 
> There is no forgiveness of sin without repentance.
> 
>>> 7.    Does God, Christ, and all the holy angels ever lust?
> 
> A holy, kadosh, G-d, cannot allow that which is unholy in his
> kingdom. The angels and the Sons of G-d who lusted left heaven
> 
>>> Those who are spirit beings, those who are Holy, perfect, and righteous?
> 
> The ones who lusted left heaven long ago and came here. According to
> the Book of Enoch, they are imprisoned here awaiting judgment.
> 
>> 
>> Regarding (7.): Yes, of course, angels do.  See Genesis 6:1-4 for more
> info.
>> 
>> But that's a very concise treatment of the story.  For a longer and
>> more explicit version see 1 Enoch 6-7, followed by additional
>> references throughout the following chapters up to 1 Enoch 71.  (1
>> Enoch is an early first century Jewish work which appears to have
>> been treated as ... um, well, gospel,
> 
> We believe that the Enoch in the title is the Enoch mentioned in
> Genesis. Noah brought a copy with him on the ark.
> 
>> I guess you'd call it ... by many in the early Church, certainly
>> including St. Jude, who quotes from it, and possibly including Paul
>> himself.  It was considered a sacred book by the Christian church in
>> Ethiopia for centuries.)
> 
> My rabbi agrees.
> 
>> For a bit more on Satan/Lucipher and his feelings in various matters
>> see the Life of Adam and Eve 12-16.  He's apparently a very
>> emotional guy, and quite proud, and feels he really got shafted by
>> God.  (LoA&E is also a 1st century work, which incorporates
>> longstanding traditions surrounding the events in the Bible.)
> 
> Leave it up to Lucifer to believe that. He started out with pride,
> and then he lied, and then he murdered. Tonight's interviewee on C to
> C AM is talking about Zachuriah Sitchens who has written a book about
> some Sumerian clay tablets that he translated. He tells a story about
> an extra terresterial race called the Ananaki, who created humans to
> be their slaves. Sitchen's story continues with the usual New Age B
> S.  Satan has a long history of writing books which deceive people.
> IMHO, this is one of the finest examples of his art.
> 
>> And who, by the way, ever said angels are "perfect"?
> 
> A holy G-d cannot tolerate that which is unholy in his kingdom.
> 
>> 
>>> 
>>> Don't be too quick to answer. Remember, all of our background came
>>> from our parents, culture, and our society.
> 
>> Take yourself out of our culture and into some other where "lust"
>> and "sin" aren't all tangled up together and where "Christ" is just
>> a word with no meaning and nobody's ever heard parables about the
>> "Kingdom of Heaven", and you'll have trouble even understanding what
>> those questions are supposed to mean.
> 
> You're making several assumptions, and you know what happens when you
> assume. If there is no creator, and he has no interest in making the
> Earth holy, then you can write the story off as a parable.
> 
> 
> --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! --
> http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 14 10:10:30 2005
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Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 13:00:43 -0500
From: Harry Veeder <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: Einstein Frequency/Temperature & Photon-Phonon Heterodyne	Action
In-reply-to: <410-220051231414243586 earthlink.net>
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...and replace them with Bible Humping Sex Maniacs.
;-)
Harry

Frederick Sparber wrote:

One way to get rid of those Bible Thumping Sex Maniacs on Vortex, Richard.
:-)

Fred
----- Original Message -----
From: RC Macaulay <mailto:walhalla cvtv.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Sent: 12/14/2005 7:02:30 AM
Subject: Re: Einstein Frequency/Temperature & Photon-Phonon Heterodyne
Action

Hi Fred,
May I add a word of caution on these type lamps. There are not child's play.
One should have experience and safety training before working with high
pressure UV lamps.
Richard
----- Original Message -----
From: Frederick Sparber <mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: vortex-l <mailto:vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2005 7:23 AM
Subject: Re: Einstein Frequency/Temperature & Photon-Phonon Heterodyne
Action

GE  A-H6 Lamp Data:

Operating Pressure 110 Atmospheres (~1625 PSIG).

3.25 inch long x 0.186 dia base, Horizonal operation, 75 hour lamp life
(based on 25 minute burning
periods).

Requires 840 volts at 1.4 amps. (transformer secondary 1200 volts open
circuit) 120 or 240 volt primary.

4.0 second start time, 2.0 second restart time.

With 190 watts worth of photons at 3.27 eV-4.88 eV it might rival the MAHG.
:-)

Fred
----- Original Message -----
From: Frederick Sparber <mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: vortex-l <mailto:vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: 12/14/2005 5:36:05 AM
Subject: Re: Einstein Frequency/Temperature & Photon-Phonon Heterodyne
Action

The 3.25 inch long GE A-H6 1000 watt water-cooled Quartz Lamps provide 31
watts of uv below 280 nanometers, 75 watts in the
280-320 nm range, 90 watts 320-380 nm range, or 195 watts total uv below 380
nm.  And 290 watts in the visible 380-760 nm range.
The rest is infrared (I suppose).
"Water-Cooled" with D2O flowing past could be interesting.

$8.79 each at this surplus outlet. If they are Quartz.

http://www.electronicsurplus.com/commerce/catalog/product.jsp;jsessionid=56C
B4EDCD3F70176BD09F535A5D96092?product_id=70387&czuid=1134571800423
<http://www.electronicsurplus.com/commerce/catalog/product.jsp;jsessionid=56
CB4EDCD3F70176BD09F535A5D96092?product_id=70387&amp;czuid=1134571800423>

Fred




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<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Re: Einstein Frequency/Temperature &amp; Photon-Phonon Heterodyne Action</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
...and replace them with Bible Humping Sex Maniacs.<BR>
;-)<BR>
Harry<BR>
<BR>
Frederick Sparber wrote:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE>One way to get rid of those Bible Thumping Sex Maniacs on Vortex, Richard. &nbsp;:-)<BR>
 <BR>
Fred<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE>----- Original Message ----- <BR>
<B>From:</B> RC Macaulay &lt;mailto:walhalla cvtv.net&gt; &nbsp;<BR>
<B>To: </B>vortex-l eskimo.com<BR>
<B>Sent:</B> 12/14/2005 7:02:30 AM <BR>
<B>Subject:</B> Re: Einstein Frequency/Temperature &amp; Photon-Phonon Heterodyne Action<BR>
<BR>
<FONT SIZE="2"><FONT FACE="Verdana">Hi Fred,<BR>
May I add a word of caution on these type lamps. There are not child's play. One should have experience and safety training before working with high pressure UV lamps.<BR>
Richard<BR>
</FONT></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT SIZE="2">----- Original Message ----- <BR>
<B>From:</B> Frederick Sparber &lt;mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net&gt; &nbsp;<BR>
<B>To:</B> vortex-l &lt;mailto:vortex-l eskimo.com&gt; &nbsp;<BR>
<B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, December 14, 2005 7:23 AM<BR>
<B>Subject:</B> Re: Einstein Frequency/Temperature &amp; Photon-Phonon Heterodyne Action<BR>
<BR>
GE &nbsp;A-H6 Lamp Data:<BR>
 <BR>
Operating Pressure 110 Atmospheres (~1625 PSIG).<BR>
 <BR>
3.25 inch long x 0.186 dia base, Horizonal operation, 75 hour lamp life (based on 25 minute burning <BR>
periods).<BR>
 <BR>
Requires 840 volts at 1.4 amps. (transformer secondary 1200 volts open circuit) 120 or 240 volt primary.<BR>
 <BR>
4.0 second start time, 2.0 second restart time.<BR>
 <BR>
With 190 watts worth of photons at 3.27 eV-4.88 eV it might rival the MAHG. &nbsp;:-)<BR>
 <BR>
Fred<BR>
</FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT SIZE="2">----- Original Message ----- &nbsp;<BR>
<B>From:</B> Frederick Sparber &lt;mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net&gt; &nbsp;<BR>
<B>To: </B>vortex-l &lt;mailto:vortex-l eskimo.com&gt; <BR>
<B>Sent:</B> 12/14/2005 5:36:05 AM <BR>
<B>Subject:</B> Re: Einstein Frequency/Temperature &amp; Photon-Phonon Heterodyne Action<BR>
<BR>
The 3.25 inch long GE A-H6 1000 watt water-cooled Quartz Lamps provide 31 watts of uv below 280 nanometers, 75 watts in the<BR>
280-320 nm range, 90 watts 320-380 nm range, or 195 watts total uv below 380 nm. &nbsp;And 290 watts in the visible 380-760 nm range.<BR>
The rest is infrared (I suppose). <BR>
&quot;Water-Cooled&quot; with D2O flowing past could be interesting.<BR>
 <BR>
$8.79 each at this surplus outlet. If they are Quartz.<BR>
 <BR>
http://www.electronicsurplus.com/commerce/catalog/product.jsp;jsessionid=56CB4EDCD3F70176BD09F535A5D96092?product_id=70387&amp;czuid=1134571800423 &lt;http://www.electronicsurplus.com/commerce/catalog/product.jsp;jsessionid=56CB4EDCD3F70176BD09F535A5D96092?product_id=70387&amp;amp;czuid=1134571800423&gt; <BR>
 <BR>
Fred<BR>
</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</BODY>
</HTML>


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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 14 11:14:20 2005
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Subject: Re: OffTopic: Lust and the bible
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 Stephen A. Lawrence wrote:
>
> Standing Bear wrote:
>
> >This thread is really spam.
> >
> No, this thread is just a symptom.We're sitting in the waiting room, 
> some experimenting, most just waiting, hoping that somebody's going to 
> jump up and shout "The Jubilee's here!  I've closed the loop!"
>
With over a half century of R&D experience and 7 patents (many still
referenced) under my
belt, I would say it's a symptom of ignorance, Stephen.

The info Jed posted on ICCF-12 suggests many areas of physics that need
"brainstorming"
by interested list members, to come up with experiments that can test
theoies and/or the experiments
that show promise.
Jed's favorite topic is the Wright Brothers who married evolving I. C.
engine
technology with evolving glider technology.
>
> A few years back it looked like that was about to happen.  But years 
> have passed, the researchers who are actively looking have gotten older, 
> and nobody's announced the Jubilee.  
> 
So why fiddle while Rome burns? Fire a few extra dendrites and Google up
some science
instead of engaging in mindless OFF TOPIC DEBATE!

Fred




 



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Frederick Sparber wrote:

> Stephen A. Lawrence wrote:
>  
>
>>Standing Bear wrote:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>This thread is really spam.
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>No, this thread is just a symptom.We're sitting in the waiting room, 
>>some experimenting, most just waiting, hoping that somebody's going to 
>>jump up and shout "The Jubilee's here!  I've closed the loop!"
>>
>>    
>>
>With over a half century of R&D experience and 7 patents (many still
>referenced) under my
>belt, I would say it's a symptom of ignorance, Stephen.
>  
>
OK, point well taken.

I will stop throwing gasoline on the flames of ignorance.

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The shock noise heard when a 60 watt light bulb (about 2/3 ATM argon cold pressure)
blows out is quite noticeable.

http://www.stormingmedia.us/71/7195/A719593.html

"With the exception of a nuclear explosion itself, the highest energy density that can be obtained at a given point for a short time results from a wire explosion when a sudden large pulse of electrical current is passed through it. The energy (of the order of 8.5 kJ) in an exploding wire has been measured as a function of time by means of a scheme which, except for the sweep circuits of the oscilloscopes, uses only passive circuit elements and requires no calculated corrections for inductive effects."

Small diameter wire (tungsten?) a 12 volt battery and a switch?

Fred
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<HTML><HEAD>
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<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>The shock noise heard when a&nbsp;60 watt light bulb (about 2/3 ATM argon cold pressure)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>blows out is quite noticeable.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2><A href="http://www.stormingmedia.us/71/7195/A719593.html">http://www.stormingmedia.us/71/7195/A719593.html</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>"With the exception of a nuclear explosion itself, the highest energy density that can be obtained at a given point for a short time results from a wire explosion when a sudden large pulse of electrical current is passed through it. The energy (of the order of 8.5 kJ) in an exploding wire has been measured as a function of time by means of a scheme which, except for the sweep circuits of the oscilloscopes, uses only passive circuit elements and requires no calculated corrections for inductive effects."</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Small diameter wire (tungsten?) a 12 volt battery and a switch?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Fred</DIV></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8--


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Standing Bear wrote:

>This thread is really spam.
>
No, this thread is just a symptom.  We're sitting in the waiting room, 
some experimenting, most just waiting, hoping that somebody's going to 
jump up and shout "The Jubilee's here!  I've closed the loop!"

A few years back it looked like that was about to happen.  But years 
have passed, the researchers who are actively looking have gotten older, 
and nobody's announced the Jubilee.  Jed's announcements of startling 
new papers seem to be less and less frequent, the "new" items outside 
the arena of CF get even harder to believe (or even more mundane),  and 
it all starts to look pretty gray.  Patterson's miracle cell 
self-destructed, BLP needs to either rewrite all of physics starting at 
the sophomore level or recant their results, Mizuno's apparently given 
up on low temp wet cells, and the only one claiming anything which has 
the possibility of going commercial is Mitch Swartz and all he ever 
posts these days are rants against Jed.   And so, those of us taking up 
space on the list who aren't actively experimenting are getting bored 
waiting for The Breakthrough and we're talking about other stuff in the 
mean time.

Unfortunately for the noise level, this forum's actually a pretty 
friendly place to talk about goofy stuff like the merits of the book of 
Enoch.  The "real" religious groups are chock full of people who take it 
all so seriously that there can be no real discussion, and there's 
always a particular POV to which one is supposed to adhere in order to 
remain on-topic for the group.

>  
>It is attracting Vortexians into its spiderweb with the alluring illusion of 
>the challenge of a 'debate'.  The originator of the posting started the ball 
>rolling by replying to his own post,
>
Huh?  Harry Veeder started this thread and didn't reply to his own post, 
that I can see.  (He replied to some replies to his post but that's 
normal, or even desireable.)  I don't see any commercial messages from 
him, either.

>                                  Its all there in various 'holy books'. They
>all say the same basic things.  They all probably came from a single
>source, a now lost and long forgotten 'holy book' that was actually 
>a rule book created by our bio-engineers long ago.  From this our
>earliest sentient ancestors about 14000 years ago
>
Say what?  Try 1,000,000 years ago.  May not be quite right, but on a 
log scale, it'll be a lot closer than 14,000.

Our earliest "sentient" ancestors, who invented clothing and fire, were 
not "human".  That seems clear from a simple inventory of our rather 
peculiar physical attributes, which would be quite difficult to evolve 
in a world without cooked food and warm exoskins.

Actually I might take issue with your use of the word "sentient" here 
but that's yet another off-topic argument...

> were instructed
>in ways to live in order to:  survive and lead healthy lives;  and not
>inbreed and ruin the genetic programming engineered into the 
>homo erectus robustii that had been the seeds for alien DNA transplantation
>project.
>
So did they work over the chimps, too, maybe as "practice" before the 
main event?

If not, how on Earth do you explain the enormous similarity between our 
DNA and chimpanzee DNA?

>  The instruction was most likely verbal as the newly incubated
>changlelings would not yet have a written language to go with their
>newly acquired speech ability.  An original language was probably 
>taught them before the 'code of living' was given them.  Once having
>the knowledge necessary for successful colonization of this planet, the
>subjects were released into the natural environment (the 'garden of eden').
>Who knows, 'eden' or some sound like it probably meant something
>in the alien language.  The new 'men' then found .....other people??!?....
>to mate with and begin the chain of 'begats' found in every 'holy book'
>in the world.  From there the tales diverge into fantasy, but that fantasy
>includes the basic teachings:   don't kill each other (makes sense if one
>wants his 'people' to survive);  don't steal;  don't do genetic crimes to
>interfere with the DNA templates;  you are a 'member of _______religion
>because your MOTHER was (the real code is in the mitochondria);  don't
>eat 'unclean meats' usually meaning pork (some kind of pig DNA was
>probably also used to fill in certain gaps or for genetic interfacing with
>alien and robustian DNA somewhere....this dictum appears in more
>than several 'holy' codexes).  I mean really folks, these hucksters came
>to a scientific site to trash it and pollute it.  Are they really so stupid as
>to lack the ability to concieve of an intelligence greater than themselves?
>Do they really believe thier own lies and dogmas so much that they are
>unable to imagine a successful challenge? 
>
I'm sorry, long about this point I started getting lost in the ranting...

> Did they think that we would fall victim to propagandists cloaked in religions?  Did they think us
>superstitious?  Or is the idea to simply clog the list with endless and 
>fruitless 'dialogs of the deaf', eventually driving out the members from our
>little corner of the world and scattering us so that the real ideas we
>discuss will no longer have a forum.
>  I will not leave!, but I can screen them.  Under linux, keywords appearing
>anywhere in any header can be used as mail filters.  These 'keywords
>can contain punctuation marks, parts of HTML commands, etc.  Religious
>spammers are just like porn spammers, drug pushers, phishers and
>virus vendors in that they have a limited vocabulary:  just like we filter
>on four letter words and combinations and mispellings of the same to 
>ban porners; or filter on drug names for pushers; or filter on 'values', 'buy'
>or 'credit' for loansharks and hot goods pushers;  religious sharks use
>lots of 'God' (may be not capitolized or use different names for the 'diety'),
>'save' (just like salesmen), 'salvation', 'sin', 'lust' (just like porners), 
>'adultery' (again just like porners)....you know the drill.  Use enough of
>those and delete them and...voila...the world is clean again of their filth.
>   And oh, yeah, if our list is really under attack, these folks won't let go 
>easy.  They will use junk in the titles and spoofed return addresses and 
>forged headers while inundating us......just like spammers.  Religious 
>fanatics have murdured millions throughout history.  It is one place our
>bioengineers made a mistake in our genetic code, allowing the genes
>for murder of one's own species members, genes that are present in
>today's great apes like the chimpanzees, to continue.  Perhaps our
>bioengineers did not know these genes existed because they did not stay long
>enough on our planet to do more thorough studies of candidate
>species for aliotransplantation.  One wonders if these aliens were
>able to time travel as well.  They would then have had and yet have
>the ability to look in on us from time to time.  Like maybe we are/were
>an alien tourist attraction?!  But if that is true, then what does that say
>also about them?  Certainly not anything ethically or morally good!
>   But then if we are a tourist attraction, the 'keepers' would want to 
>make certain that the 'animals' never get out of the cage....that is
>gain the ability for space travel.  Maybe that is behind the present
>administration's sudden newfound love for old chemical rocket
>tech that is prone to failure.
>
>Enough rant for one day!
>
>Standing Bear
>
>  
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 14 12:54:20 2005
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Subject: Re: OffTopic: Lust and the bible
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> From: Standing Bear

...

> Enough rant for one day!
>
> Standing Bear

[NOTE: My Charter.net mail server is once again acting flaky. I don't know if others have received Mr. Bear's latest comments or not. I've received Mr. Bear's post through our server at work, but not through normal channels - my Charter.net server. So keep that in mind if you haven't yet received his post.]


Goodness me, Mr. Bear! What jerked your chain today!

Concerning your warnings, and the many broad sweeping subjects expressed in your latest post I find it amusing that you've also managed to generate one of the most lengthy and turgidly detailed responses to date.

Well...actually MANY topics were discussed.

Mr. Beaty, this is your list. In the end you must decide if subject threads like the current one are getting way too off-topic. I have heard complains from other members that Vortex-l has suffered, that real science is being crowded out and replaced with endless topics based more on the expression of personal eccentricities.

It's entertaining, for sure, but strictly speaking it isn't the pursuit of science - even new and/or controversial science. I also admit that I'm guilty of having contributed my own brand of eccentric non-scientific opinions on this topic as well.

But getting back to some of the comments by the esteemed Mr. Bear. Concerning our genetic heritage, and despite my jabs of humor directed at your expense I find much of what you have discussed intriguing and maybe possibly even accurate (well...possibly to a certain extent). However, there really isn't any way to prove or disprove any of it - for now. At present it seems to me to be more a modern myth as compared to an intriguing anthropological theory.

Please keep in mind that in my book a good myth is ok, too!

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 14 13:57:38 2005
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TVA  area and other strip-mine sites, John? 
The repositories could be engineered for plant nutrient 
recovery also.

Fred


> [Original Message]
> From: John Steck <johnsteck tetrahelix.com>
> To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> Date: 12/14/2005 1:58:43 PM
> Subject: RE: DON'T PANIC!
>
> With the price of natural gas not looking to go down any time soon, might
> not be a bad business plan to start a company with.  Land, collection, and
> fermenting time would be your biggest expenses.... But once you got past
the
> initial startup delay, keeping it producing would only be a caretaker
> activity.
>
> I like it.  -john
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net] 
> Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2005 11:33 AM
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: RE: DON'T PANIC!
>
>
> A short term effort that I practice, John, is to throw every bit of
> biodegradeable material I can  into the trash bin headed to landfill. Do
> that with all of the agro-produced waste (that normally oxidizes
> aerobically) in area repositories and there will be significant amounts of
> "Natural Gas" CH4 available in a couple of decades.
>
> Fred
>
> > [Original Message]
> > From: John Steck <johnsteck tetrahelix.com>
> > To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> > Date: 12/14/2005 9:55:10 AM
> > Subject: RE: DON'T PANIC!
> >
> > There are theories that petroleum is a by-product of chemical 
> > reactions taking place sub-surface and percolating up through the 
> > bedrock.  It's a theory postulated to explain why tapped out oil 
> > fields have been
> discovered
> > to be filling back up.
> >
> > http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0387985468/026-0122312-685165
> > 5
> >
> > If true, peak oil will have to be redefined as the rate of consumption 
> > vs. rate of replenishment.  Might not help this civilization, but a 
> > few
> hundred
> > thousand years should be enough to refill the tanks for the next one 
> > to emerge after the next ice age / flood / asteroid cleansing.  
> > Hopefully
> they
> > will be prudent enough not to smelt down all the circuit boards in the
> trash
> > heaps for their precious metal content before they are smart enough to 
> > decode our legacy from them.
> >
> > Wow.  Sorry about that.  Just bummed myself out....  My cynicism valve
> seems
> > to be stuck in the open position this morning.
> >
> > -john
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: hohlrauml6d netscape.net [mailto:hohlrauml6d@netscape.net]
> > Sent: Monday, December 12, 2005 9:05 PM
> > To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> > Subject: DON'T PANIC!
> >
> >
> > http://www.sacbee.com/content/opinion/story/13949592p-14784245c.html
> >
> > Saudi "proven" reserves are shown at 262.7 billion barrels. In 1989,
> > Saudi "proven" reserves were reported at 260 billion barrels. No 
> > significant fields have been discovered since then. How does one 
> > explain the current reserve? Kuwait's Burgan Field (the second-largest 
> > on Earth) has peaked and is in decline.
> >
> > <more>
> >
> > Keep your towel handy. 
> > ___________________________________________________
> > Try the New Netscape Mail Today!
> > Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List
> > http://mail.netscape.com
> >
>
>
>



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Palladium wire fed off a spool?

http://www.ias.ac.in/chemsci/Pdf-OctDec2003/Pc3336.pdf

Fred
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<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Palladium wire fed off a spool?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2><A href="http://www.ias.ac.in/chemsci/Pdf-OctDec2003/Pc3336.pdf">http://www.ias.ac.in/chemsci/Pdf-OctDec2003/Pc3336.pdf</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Fred</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 14 14:22:59 2005
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Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 17:12:11 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Arata's gas-loaded double-structured cathode
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At ICCF-12, Arata described a gas-loaded version of his double 
structured cathode. His lecture slides and some text are available here:

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/ArataYdevelopmenb.pdf

It may be a little unclear from this text, but this implementation of 
the double structured cathode appears to be much more practical than 
the liquid electrolyte version, and it produces high power density. 
The device he described at ICCF-12 have about 1 cc of palladium 
black. He is now having a corporation fabricate any new, larger 
version which will have about 100 cc of palladium black. It should be 
ready in a few months.

- Jed


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----- Original Message ----- 
From: <R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2005 8:53 AM
Subject: RE: OffTopic: Lust and the bible


> The ones who lusted left heaven long ago and came here. According to
> the Book of Enoch, they are imprisoned here awaiting judgment.

And, who will judge them?  According to Paul, it is us!

1st Corinthians 6:3 "Do you not know that we shall judge angels?"

Is it these angels or all of them?

What qualifies us to do that?

Is it because that we, in the course of living our human lives, are
graduates of the school of hard knocks.  Whereas, the angels have not had to
survive the kinds of challenges we routinely face?

Jeff


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 14 14:39:50 2005
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Are new papers less frequent?
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Putting aside the previous ridiculous thread title . . .

Stephen A. Lawrence wrote:

>No, this thread is just a symptom.  We're sitting in the waiting 
>room, some experimenting, most just waiting, hoping that somebody's 
>going to jump up and shout "The Jubilee's here!  I've closed the loop!"

I agree, although I never had much faith in OU claims other than cold 
fusion. Cavitation is the only one with any credibility in my opinion.


>Jed's announcements of startling new papers seem to be less and less 
>frequent . . .

True. And I think the reasons why are clear:

1. First, the good news. Success at places like Mitsubishi and their 
collaborators at Spring8 can now be taken for granted. It is ho-hum 
news that every single run at these places produce a strong evidence 
of transmutation. Dardik and Violante report more of the same -- 
excess heat, with increasing frequency and reliability:

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/DardikIprogressin.pdf

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/DardikIprogressin.pdf

2. Possible good news #2: a few people probably have funding but it 
comes with strings attached and they cannot talk about their results.

3. Bad news. Age and mortality take their toll. Many researchers who 
were active a few years ago are now retired, such as Takahashi, 
Ohmori and Bockris. Lawrence wrote, "Patterson's miracle cell 
self-destructed." That is not a fair assessment. What happened was, 
Patterson's grandson Jim Reding, who was running the business, 
dropped dead one day in his early 40s. I think Patterson lost heart 
after that, which is understandable. He is in his 70s or 80s by now. 
Some very promising ideas and techniques for manufacturing 
Patterson-style multilayer cathodes have been presented. One fellow 
from the UK showed up at a conference and described equipment that 
can down thousands of layers of material, was very precise geometry 
and purity. CF researchers working on their own with manual 
techniques can only put down four or five layers. But no one has 
followed up on this because no one has the resources to do so. This 
one approach could absorb millions of dollars a year, but as far as I 
know there is not a single dollar is being spent on it.

4. There is only so much you can do on a shoestring, when you are 
working against powerful political opposition. Opposition from the 
DoE, Scientific American and other powerful establishment 
institutions has not abated as far as I can tell. For a young 
researcher, performing an experiment in this field would still be 
career suicide. Heck, *talking about it at the water cooler* would 
probably end any chance of getting tenure. Mumbling about it in your 
sleep might be hazardous.

5. Researchers have not cloned themselves. Lawrence wrote, "Mizuno's 
apparently given up on low temp wet cells . . ." He did not give up, 
he simply does not have the time. He has teaching responsibilities 
and he has to do other research beside cold fusion. What little time 
and money he can devote to cold fusion goes to glow discharge.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 14 14:44:21 2005
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From: "John Steck" <johnsteck tetrahelix.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: DON'T PANIC!
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 16:43:37 -0600
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Good use of those abandoned properties... Plus land cost would be ideal.
But I am not picturing a 'green' landfill.  I am thinking more deep missile
silo type structures to idealize prime conditions and collection.  Apply
steam to accelerate the process?  Pair it up with geothermal to avoid the
energy cost?  Worlds largest methanol still?

Like it even more now.  -john


-----Original Message-----
From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net] 
Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2005 3:44 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: RE: DON'T PANIC!


TVA  area and other strip-mine sites, John? 
The repositories could be engineered for plant nutrient 
recovery also.

Fred


> [Original Message]
> From: John Steck <johnsteck tetrahelix.com>
> To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> Date: 12/14/2005 1:58:43 PM
> Subject: RE: DON'T PANIC!
>
> With the price of natural gas not looking to go down any time soon, 
> might not be a bad business plan to start a company with.  Land, 
> collection, and fermenting time would be your biggest expenses.... But 
> once you got past
the
> initial startup delay, keeping it producing would only be a caretaker 
> activity.
>
> I like it.  -john
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2005 11:33 AM
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: RE: DON'T PANIC!
>
>
> A short term effort that I practice, John, is to throw every bit of 
> biodegradeable material I can  into the trash bin headed to landfill. 
> Do that with all of the agro-produced waste (that normally oxidizes
> aerobically) in area repositories and there will be significant 
> amounts of "Natural Gas" CH4 available in a couple of decades.
>
> Fred
>
> > [Original Message]
> > From: John Steck <johnsteck tetrahelix.com>
> > To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> > Date: 12/14/2005 9:55:10 AM
> > Subject: RE: DON'T PANIC!
> >
> > There are theories that petroleum is a by-product of chemical
> > reactions taking place sub-surface and percolating up through the 
> > bedrock.  It's a theory postulated to explain why tapped out oil 
> > fields have been
> discovered
> > to be filling back up.
> >
> > http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0387985468/026-0122312-6851
> > 65
> > 5
> >
> > If true, peak oil will have to be redefined as the rate of 
> > consumption
> > vs. rate of replenishment.  Might not help this civilization, but a 
> > few
> hundred
> > thousand years should be enough to refill the tanks for the next one
> > to emerge after the next ice age / flood / asteroid cleansing.  
> > Hopefully
> they
> > will be prudent enough not to smelt down all the circuit boards in 
> > the
> trash
> > heaps for their precious metal content before they are smart enough 
> > to
> > decode our legacy from them.
> >
> > Wow.  Sorry about that.  Just bummed myself out....  My cynicism 
> > valve
> seems
> > to be stuck in the open position this morning.
> >
> > -john
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: hohlrauml6d netscape.net [mailto:hohlrauml6d@netscape.net]
> > Sent: Monday, December 12, 2005 9:05 PM
> > To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> > Subject: DON'T PANIC!
> >
> >
> > http://www.sacbee.com/content/opinion/story/13949592p-14784245c.html
> >
> > Saudi "proven" reserves are shown at 262.7 billion barrels. In 1989, 
> > Saudi "proven" reserves were reported at 260 billion barrels. No 
> > significant fields have been discovered since then. How does one 
> > explain the current reserve? Kuwait's Burgan Field (the 
> > second-largest on Earth) has peaked and is in decline.
> >
> > <more>
> >
> > Keep your towel handy.
> > ___________________________________________________
> > Try the New Netscape Mail Today!
> > Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List
> > http://mail.netscape.com
> >
>
>
>



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 14 15:14:03 2005
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Subject: Early implementations of technology are often too complicated
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If I ever get around to revising my book, chapter 2 section 1, I 
should include the illustrations from this page, showing John 
Harrison's famous four marine chronometers:

http://eee.uci.edu/clients/bjbecker/ExploringtheCosmos/lecture11.html

Note that the first three (H1, H2 and H3) made by Harrison were 
immensely complicated and they weighed between 60 and 80 pounds. 
Imagine trying to take something like that on board a ship. The 
practical implementation, H4, weighed 3 lbs. It was made by someone 
else based on Harrison's ideas.

The first three implementations of the chronometer were too 
complicated. We tend to suppose that groundbreaking technology will 
be too crude, and sometimes it is. But in many cases it suffers from 
the opposite problem: it is too subtle; it tries to accomplish too 
much, and it introduces too many new variations in new ideas at one time.

The imaginary computer shown in my book in figure 7.2 suffers from 
this problem, and many real computers from the early 1980s were like 
this. They were built with "suspenders and a belt" as engineers put 
it, plus you might say they also included some sort of chain-mail 
shirt contraption that might or might not hold up your pants (no one 
was quite sure why they included it), and also an antigravity-based 
pants holder-upper.

I recall an early UNIX-based text processor that automatically 
crammed together what the program decided must be multiple first 
initials in people's names. You would write "Bush, G. H. W." with 
spaces separating G., H. and W., and boom, the program would cram 
them together: "Bush, G.H.W." This is how old-fashioned 
bibliographies are formatted, and very annoying it is! Why anyone 
would want to bring this ridiculous format into the computer age I do 
not know, but someone went to a lot of trouble to do so, and they 
made this the default mode with some kind of weird code to override it.

The Wright Kitty Hawk flyer featured "drooping" down turned wings, 
which must have been quite a challenge to master. It also had such a 
complicated way of controlling the machine no one but the Wrights 
could have mastered it. Groundbreaking inventors tend to be like 
this. The Wrights continued to make counterintuitive, overly complex 
controls for their airplanes which only they could master, such as 
wing warper (flap) control lever that you moved to the left in order 
to go to the right, while you simultaneously moved the other controls 
to the right. At least one pilot in training killed himself trying to 
master this nutty arrangement. The Wrights resembled early he-man 
assembly language programmers. They saw nothing wrong with machines 
that demanded perfection and unworldly levels of concentration. Since 
they could deal with five levels of complexity or solve differential 
equations in their heads while riding backwards on bicycles, they saw 
no reason why other people should not do the same thing. Cold fusion 
researchers who expect others to replicate them based on published 
papers have a similar mindset.

- Jed


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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
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Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 08:15:20 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  thomas malloy's message of Wed, 14 Dec 2005 01:35:58
-0600:
Hi Thomas,
[snip]
>>Because each different isotope produces decay particles with a
>>different energy, those with the greatest energy will have the
>>greatest radius. Those with less energy will have a smaller
>>radius. This leads to a series of concentric shells.
>
>Thank you for your reply Robin. However I'm still wondering about 
>extracting information from the imprint of the energy on the rock. 
>Any suggestions about what areas I should read about?
[snip]

Actually it's slightly more complicated than I implied. Some
decays produce beta particles, and electrons tend to have more
penetrating power than alphas of the same energy. To further
complicate matters, beta decays produce betas with a whole range
of energies, from nothing up to the maximum possible energy for
the decay. The energetic particles will dislodge both electrons
and whole atoms within the crystal lattice of the rock, leading to
chemical changes that reveal themselves as discolorations. Sorry,
I have no particular book in mind, but perhaps from this you can
get an idea of the general area that you would need to study.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

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W#ould you settle for some old H bomb cavities blown underground
in Nevada, John?  :-)

Fred 


> [Original Message]
> From: John Steck <johnsteck tetrahelix.com>
> To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> Date: 12/14/2005 3:44:01 PM
> Subject: RE: DON'T PANIC!
>
> Good use of those abandoned properties... Plus land cost would be ideal.
> But I am not picturing a 'green' landfill.  I am thinking more deep
missile
> silo type structures to idealize prime conditions and collection.  Apply
> steam to accelerate the process?  Pair it up with geothermal to avoid the
> energy cost?  Worlds largest methanol still?
>
> Like it even more now.  -john
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net] 
> Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2005 3:44 PM
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: RE: DON'T PANIC!
>
>
> TVA  area and other strip-mine sites, John? 
> The repositories could be engineered for plant nutrient 
> recovery also.
>
> Fred
>
>
> > [Original Message]
> > From: John Steck <johnsteck tetrahelix.com>
> > To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> > Date: 12/14/2005 1:58:43 PM
> > Subject: RE: DON'T PANIC!
> >
> > With the price of natural gas not looking to go down any time soon, 
> > might not be a bad business plan to start a company with.  Land, 
> > collection, and fermenting time would be your biggest expenses.... But 
> > once you got past
> the
> > initial startup delay, keeping it producing would only be a caretaker 
> > activity.
> >
> > I like it.  -john
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net]
> > Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2005 11:33 AM
> > To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> > Subject: RE: DON'T PANIC!
> >
> >
> > A short term effort that I practice, John, is to throw every bit of 
> > biodegradeable material I can  into the trash bin headed to landfill. 
> > Do that with all of the agro-produced waste (that normally oxidizes
> > aerobically) in area repositories and there will be significant 
> > amounts of "Natural Gas" CH4 available in a couple of decades.
> >
> > Fred
> >
> > > [Original Message]
> > > From: John Steck <johnsteck tetrahelix.com>
> > > To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> > > Date: 12/14/2005 9:55:10 AM
> > > Subject: RE: DON'T PANIC!
> > >
> > > There are theories that petroleum is a by-product of chemical
> > > reactions taking place sub-surface and percolating up through the 
> > > bedrock.  It's a theory postulated to explain why tapped out oil 
> > > fields have been
> > discovered
> > > to be filling back up.
> > >
> > > http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0387985468/026-0122312-6851
> > > 65
> > > 5
> > >
> > > If true, peak oil will have to be redefined as the rate of 
> > > consumption
> > > vs. rate of replenishment.  Might not help this civilization, but a 
> > > few
> > hundred
> > > thousand years should be enough to refill the tanks for the next one
> > > to emerge after the next ice age / flood / asteroid cleansing.  
> > > Hopefully
> > they
> > > will be prudent enough not to smelt down all the circuit boards in 
> > > the
> > trash
> > > heaps for their precious metal content before they are smart enough 
> > > to
> > > decode our legacy from them.
> > >
> > > Wow.  Sorry about that.  Just bummed myself out....  My cynicism 
> > > valve
> > seems
> > > to be stuck in the open position this morning.
> > >
> > > -john
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: hohlrauml6d netscape.net [mailto:hohlrauml6d@netscape.net]
> > > Sent: Monday, December 12, 2005 9:05 PM
> > > To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> > > Subject: DON'T PANIC!
> > >
> > >
> > > http://www.sacbee.com/content/opinion/story/13949592p-14784245c.html
> > >
> > > Saudi "proven" reserves are shown at 262.7 billion barrels. In 1989, 
> > > Saudi "proven" reserves were reported at 260 billion barrels. No 
> > > significant fields have been discovered since then. How does one 
> > > explain the current reserve? Kuwait's Burgan Field (the 
> > > second-largest on Earth) has peaked and is in decline.
> > >
> > > <more>
> > >
> > > Keep your towel handy.
> > > ___________________________________________________
> > > Try the New Netscape Mail Today!
> > > Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List
> > > http://mail.netscape.com
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 14 17:34:21 2005
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BlankHi Fred,

Interesting comment regarding use of strip mines. Over near Rockdale =
Texas, an area between Houston, Dallas and San Antonio is the old Alcoa =
aluminum smelter, lignite coal strip mine, electric power plant etc. =
Seems Alcoa wants to decommission the plant. Since WW2 it has ranked as =
one huge polluter. Miles and miles of land with huge stripped zones.

I spent time trying to get the " environmentalists and state agencies =
interested in joining forces to put a multistate effort together to =
address waste recycling on a massive level that would form a public =
private corp with Alcoa participation. On a scale of capital, scope and =
technology large enough to be profitable considering the value of =
recycled metal, plastics, electronics, etc plus the solution to =
landfills around populated areas. Plus a source of gaseous fuel, etc. =
Plus a stripmine turned into a goldmine for Alcoa, Plus an operating =
powerplant, equipment, existing technology, rail service.. men on the =
ground.

Response back from the fat and funded non-profits like Texas Eagle =
Forum, Clean Texas etc, that tout the subject?

 Silence, didn't even bother to reply. Sound familar? compare it with =
research for new energy. It's not a conspiracy, its a lethargy.

Richard


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Shared\Stationery\">
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background=3Dcid:001c01c60117$947a81d0$e1037841 xptower>
<DIV>Hi Fred,</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Interesting comment regarding use of strip mines. Over near =
Rockdale Texas,=20
an area between Houston, Dallas and San Antonio is the old Alcoa =
aluminum=20
smelter, lignite coal strip mine, electric power plant etc. Seems Alcoa =
wants to=20
decommission the plant. Since WW2 it has ranked as one huge =
polluter.&nbsp;Miles=20
and miles of land&nbsp;with huge stripped zones.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>I spent time trying to get the " environmentalists and state =
agencies=20
interested in joining forces to put a multistate effort together to =
address=20
waste recycling on a massive level that would form a public private corp =
with=20
Alcoa participation. On a scale of capital, scope and technology large =
enough to=20
be profitable considering the value of recycled metal, plastics, =
electronics,=20
etc plus the solution to landfills around populated areas. Plus a source =
of=20
gaseous fuel, etc. Plus a stripmine turned into a goldmine for Alcoa, =
Plus an=20
operating powerplant, equipment, existing technology, rail service.. men =
on the=20
ground.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Response back from the fat and funded non-profits like Texas Eagle =
Forum,=20
Clean Texas etc, that tout the subject?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;Silence, didn't even bother to reply. Sound familar? compare =
it with=20
research for new energy. It's not a conspiracy, its a lethargy.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Richard</DIV>
<P>&nbsp;</P></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 14 17:37:34 2005
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From: "RC Macaulay" <walhalla cvtv.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Fw: NKS 2006 Wolfram Science Conference
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 19:37:04 -0600
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Vorts,
Just received the invitation for those interested.
Richard
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "The NKS 2006 Organizing Committee" <nksconference wolframscience.com>
To: <walhalla cvtv.net>
Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2005 7:21 PM
Subject: NKS 2006 Wolfram Science Conference


> We would like to invite you to the NKS 2006 Wolfram Science
> Conference, to be held June 16-18 in Washington, DC.
>
> Stephen Wolfram's book A NEW KIND OF SCIENCE introduced us to a
> new paradigm for doing science. And from this has now grown an
> ever-more-energetic community that is developing the paradigm not
> only in the sciences but also in technology, business, and the
> arts.
>
> The NKS 2006 Wolfram Science Conference will provide a unique
> opportunity to connect with leading members of the NKS community,
> to explore the exciting developments now underway, and to learn
> how to apply the latest NKS ideas and methods to your own work.
>
> In addition to a wide range of general and specialized
> presentations, the conference will feature real-time computer
> experiments by Stephen Wolfram and others, problem-solving
> computer labs, an art gallery, opportunities for student
> participation, and a variety of events intended to foster
> interaction.
>
> NKS is a field that is now at a particularly exciting stage, and
> there'll be a lot to discuss at the NKS 2006 Wolfram Science
> Conference. Here are a few of the more ambitious questions now
> coming over the horizon:
>
> - Will algorithm mining revolutionize software development?
>
> - Is there a core computational architecture in biological cells?
>
> - Will generative content revolutionize the entertainment
> industry?
>
> - How will computer experiments change the face of mathematics?
>
> - Are there business structures founded on computation
> universality?
>
> - What would an operating system for a swarm of microbots be
> like?
>
> - What kinds of artificial physics can support quantum mechanics?
>
> - Will artificial life arise spontaneously within the internet?
>
> - Can one map the space of all possible economic systems?
>
> - Will the next core computer architecture be discovered by
> search?
>
> - Can we enumerate the morphologies of possible biological
> organisms?
>
> - What pattern recognition algorithms can molecules implement?
>
> - What does computational irreducibility mean for supercomputing?
>
> - Is there an algorithm for telling if an object was designed?
>
> - Will the most important nanomaterials be intrinsically random?
>
> - Can a single rule design the complete structure of a building?
>
> - Is there an absolute measure of elegance for programming
> languages?
>
> - What is the network analog of a recursive function?
>
> - Can we find the simplest undecidable problem in number theory?
>
> - What would prove the Principle of Computational Equivalence?
>
> - What will happen if kids learn cellular automata before
> algebra?
>
> - What will be the first major industry created by mining the
> computational universe?
>
> .. and ...
>
> - What will be discovered in the NKS 2006 "live experiments"?
>
>
> To register for the NKS 2006 Wolfram Science Conference, visit:
> http://www.wolframscience.com/conference/2006/register.cgi
>
> Space is limited, so please register early to ensure
> availability.
>
> The final abstract submission deadline is May 1, 2006, but
> earlier submission is strongly encouraged.
>
>
> We look forward to seeing you at the conference!
>
>
> The Organizing Committee
> NKS 2006 Wolfram Science Conference
> Washington, DC, June 16-18, 2006 


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 14 18:00:35 2005
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You should know better than trying to get state and federal agencies to
do anything, Richard. Venture capital abounds for viable revenue
generating ideas. (Wheelabrater sp?)and Waste Management Corp
comes to mind.

Fred

----- Original Message ----- 
From: RC Macaulay 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Sent: 12/14/2005 6:34:04 PM 
Subject: Re: DON'T PANIC


Hi Fred,

Interesting comment regarding use of strip mines. Over near Rockdale Texas, an area between Houston, Dallas and San Antonio is the old Alcoa aluminum smelter, lignite coal strip mine, electric power plant etc. Seems Alcoa wants to decommission the plant. Since WW2 it has ranked as one huge polluter. Miles and miles of land with huge stripped zones.

I spent time trying to get the " environmentalists and state agencies interested in joining forces to put a multistate effort together to address waste recycling on a massive level that would form a public private corp with Alcoa participation. On a scale of capital, scope and technology large enough to be profitable considering the value of recycled metal, plastics, electronics, etc plus the solution to landfills around populated areas. Plus a source of gaseous fuel, etc. Plus a stripmine turned into a goldmine for Alcoa, Plus an operating powerplant, equipment, existing technology, rail service.. men on the ground.

Response back from the fat and funded non-profits like Texas Eagle Forum, Clean Texas etc, that tout the subject?

 Silence, didn't even bother to reply. Sound familar? compare it with research for new energy. It's not a conspiracy, its a lethargy.

Richard
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<BODY id=ridBody bgColor=#ffffff background="cid:410-2200512415159525311 13071999" <DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif">You should know better than trying to get state and federal agencies to</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif">do anything, Richard. Venture capital abounds for viable revenue</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif">generating ideas. (Wheelabrater sp?)and Waste Management Corp</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif">comes to mind.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif">Fred</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=walhalla cvtv.net href="mailto:walhalla@cvtv.net">RC Macaulay</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To: </B><A title=vortex-l eskimo.com href="mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com">vortex-l@eskimo.com</A></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> 12/14/2005 6:34:04 PM </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: DON'T PANIC</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><FONT size=2>Hi Fred,
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Interesting comment regarding use of strip mines. Over near Rockdale Texas, an area between Houston, Dallas and San Antonio is the old Alcoa aluminum smelter, lignite coal strip mine, electric power plant etc. Seems Alcoa wants to decommission the plant. Since WW2 it has ranked as one huge polluter.&nbsp;Miles and miles of land&nbsp;with huge stripped zones.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>I spent time trying to get the " environmentalists and state agencies interested in joining forces to put a multistate effort together to address waste recycling on a massive level that would form a public private corp with Alcoa participation. On a scale of capital, scope and technology large enough to be profitable considering the value of recycled metal, plastics, electronics, etc plus the solution to landfills around populated areas. Plus a source of gaseous fuel, etc. Plus a stripmine turned into a goldmine for Alcoa, Plus an operating powerplant, equipment, existing technology, rail service.. men on the ground.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Response back from the fat and funded non-profits like Texas Eagle Forum, Clean Texas etc, that tout the subject?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;Silence, didn't even bother to reply. Sound familar? compare it with research for new energy. It's not a conspiracy, its a lethargy.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Richard</DIV>
<P>&nbsp;</P></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 21:13:33 -0500
From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" <salaw pobox.com>
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To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: A very low-tech seasonal amusement
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(Assuming you live in the Northland, where the humidity drops into one's 
shoes time time of year....)

Hang a paper snowflake from the ceiling, using tape and a thread.  (Or, 
better yet, hang up several.)

Blow up a latex balloon (the old-fashioned rubbery kind, not a Mylar 
one).  Then, either using a reasonably clean head of hair or a natural 
fiber sweater, charge up the balloon.

Bring it near the snowflake.  The flake is strongly attracted, of 
course.  Typically one point heads straight for the balloon (or, anyway, 
that's what I was seeing this evening).

Let the snowflake touch the balloon with one point.  Let it stick 
there.  Hold the balloon still.

A few seconds later the flake pops off the balloon,  and is repelled.  
Chase it around a bit with the balloon, and notice that, repelled or 
not, it continues to aim the same point at the balloon -- it rotates to 
keep the same orientation relative to the balloon.

Now, most of this behavior is obvious, though fun, but there were a 
couple questions I had some trouble answering.

1) The flake picks up a charge from the balloon ... obviously ... and 
then is repelled.  But why doesn't it happen _right_ _away_?  What's 
going on during the delay?  The flake pops off all at once when it 
finally leaves, and seems strongly repelled afterwards -- why doesn't it 
come loose when it's just about neutral relative to the balloon?  (The 
flakes were cut from plain-paper copier paper, by the way.  Sizes varied 
from about 1.5" to perhaps 4".)

2) Last I heard, dry paper was a pretty bad conductor.  The charge 
draining off the balloon must be going into the point of the flake which 
is touching the balloon.  One would expect that point to end up with the 
largest charge; then, the flake would spin around and turn the other 
way.   But that doesn't happen.  Once the flake stops being attracted to 
the balloon, the point which was _touching_ the balloon is the one which 
remains pointing toward the balloon, even as the flake as a whole 
skitters away.  How come?

If you happen to be an LP afficionado, you can try this, too:

Stick a balloon or two or three to the ceiling with static.

Zap them with a Zerostat.

They go right on sticking -- they don't come loose!  Why not?  Why is 
the Zerostat so bad at bleeding charge off a balloon?  It used to work 
like gangbusters getting dust off my LPs.  This one appears to still 
work; I can still feel the breeze from the nozzle when I work the 
trigger.  The room was starting to smell like ozone by the time I gave 
up trying to shoot down a balloon from the ceiling with it.

************************

If you're really bored and are sick of discussing religion on Vortex, or 
you need to entertain someone young, you can also put a well-charged 
balloon or two on a tabletop and bring another charged balloon near 
them.  No surprises there but it's fun none the less...

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Subject: Re: DON'T PANIC
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BlankHi Fred,
Scale of size  10 bil dollars plus. State backing by bonding, Alcoa =
participation, Alcoa wants a return on equity.
Politics.
All adds up to too big a boo for most. Wheelabrator has the resources =
but  alas ! Management does not stick one's neck out unless they have a  =
bird nest on the ground.. that is the new reality of capitalism. The =
only segment of business now putting money on the table is the petroleum =
industry becasue they have so much money they have to buy farm equipment =
round bale hay balers to warehouse the bucks. When Exxon makes 20 =
billion a quarter in profit, money no longer is counted, its weighed by =
the ton.
There are public-private partnerships.. i.e. huge sports stadiums. =
WalMart, Toyota. etc.. these deals begin at the national level. Take =
horsepower politics.
Richard
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Frederick Sparber=20
  To: vortex-l eskimo.com=20
  Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2005 7:59 PM
  Subject: Re: DON'T PANIC


  You should know better than trying to get state and federal agencies =
to
  do anything, Richard. Venture capital abounds for viable revenue
  generating ideas. (Wheelabrater sp?)and Waste Management Corp
  comes to mind.

  Fred

    ----- Original Message -----=20
    From: RC Macaulay=20
    To: vortex-l eskimo.com
    Sent: 12/14/2005 6:34:04 PM=20
    Subject: Re: DON'T PANIC


    Hi Fred,=20

    Interesting comment regarding use of strip mines. Over near Rockdale =
Texas, an area between Houston, Dallas and San Antonio is the old Alcoa =
aluminum smelter, lignite coal strip mine, electric power plant etc. =
Seems Alcoa wants to decommission the plant. Since WW2 it has ranked as =
one huge polluter. Miles and miles of land with huge stripped zones.

    I spent time trying to get the " environmentalists and state =
agencies interested in joining forces to put a multistate effort =
together to address waste recycling on a massive level that would form a =
public private corp with Alcoa participation. On a scale of capital, =
scope and technology large enough to be profitable considering the value =
of recycled metal, plastics, electronics, etc plus the solution to =
landfills around populated areas. Plus a source of gaseous fuel, etc. =
Plus a stripmine turned into a goldmine for Alcoa, Plus an operating =
powerplant, equipment, existing technology, rail service.. men on the =
ground.

    Response back from the fat and funded non-profits like Texas Eagle =
Forum, Clean Texas etc, that tout the subject?

     Silence, didn't even bother to reply. Sound familar? compare it =
with research for new energy. It's not a conspiracy, its a lethargy.

    Richard


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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML style=3D"FONT-SIZE: x-small; FONT-FAMILY: MS Sans =
Serif"><HEAD><TITLE=20
id=3DridTitle>Blank</TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1"><BASE=20
href=3D"file://E:\Program Files\Common Files\Microsoft =
Shared\Stationery\">
<STYLE>BODY {
	MARGIN-TOP: 25px; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 25px; COLOR: #000000; =
FONT-FAMILY: Arial, Helvetica
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<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2802" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY id=3DridBody bgColor=3D#ffffff=20
background=3Dcid:001c01c6011f$c32c1d60$e1037841 xptower <DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana>Hi Fred,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana>Scale of size&nbsp; 10 bil dollars plus. State =
backing=20
by bonding, Alcoa participation, Alcoa wants a return on =
equity.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana>Politics.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana>All adds up to too big a boo for most. =
Wheelabrator has=20
the resources but&nbsp; alas ! Management does not stick one's neck out =
unless=20
they have a&nbsp; bird nest on the ground.. that is the new reality of=20
capitalism. The only segment of business now putting money on the table =
is the=20
petroleum industry becasue they have so much money they have to buy farm =

equipment round bale hay balers to warehouse the bucks. When Exxon =
makes&nbsp;20=20
billion a quarter in profit, money no longer is counted, its weighed by =
the=20
ton.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana>There are public-private partnerships.. i.e. =
huge sports=20
stadiums. WalMart, Toyota. etc.. these deals begin at the national =
level. Take=20
horsepower politics.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana>Richard</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3Dfjsparber earthlink.net=20
  href=3D"mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net">Frederick Sparber</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dvortex-l eskimo.com=20
  href=3D"mailto:vortex-l eskimo.com">vortex-l@eskimo.com</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, December 14, =
2005 7:59=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: DON'T PANIC</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3D"MS Sans Serif">You should know better than trying =
to get=20
  state and federal agencies to</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3D"MS Sans Serif">do anything, Richard. Venture =
capital abounds=20
  for viable revenue</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3D"MS Sans Serif">generating ideas. (Wheelabrater =
sp?)and Waste=20
  Management Corp</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3D"MS Sans Serif">comes to mind.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3D"MS Sans Serif"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3D"MS Sans Serif">Fred</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE=20
  style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid">
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
    <DIV=20
    style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
    <A title=3Dwalhalla cvtv.net href=3D"mailto:walhalla@cvtv.net">RC =
Macaulay</A>=20
    </DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To: </B><A =
title=3Dvortex-l eskimo.com=20
    href=3D"mailto:vortex-l eskimo.com">vortex-l@eskimo.com</A></DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> 12/14/2005 6:34:04 PM =
</DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: DON'T =
PANIC</DIV>
    <DIV><BR></DIV><FONT size=3D2>Hi Fred,=20
    <DIV></DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>Interesting comment regarding use of strip mines. Over near =
Rockdale=20
    Texas, an area between Houston, Dallas and San Antonio is the old =
Alcoa=20
    aluminum smelter, lignite coal strip mine, electric power plant etc. =
Seems=20
    Alcoa wants to decommission the plant. Since WW2 it has ranked as =
one huge=20
    polluter.&nbsp;Miles and miles of land&nbsp;with huge stripped =
zones.</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>I spent time trying to get the " environmentalists and state =
agencies=20
    interested in joining forces to put a multistate effort together to =
address=20
    waste recycling on a massive level that would form a public private =
corp=20
    with Alcoa participation. On a scale of capital, scope and =
technology large=20
    enough to be profitable considering the value of recycled metal, =
plastics,=20
    electronics, etc plus the solution to landfills around populated =
areas. Plus=20
    a source of gaseous fuel, etc. Plus a stripmine turned into a =
goldmine for=20
    Alcoa, Plus an operating powerplant, equipment, existing technology, =
rail=20
    service.. men on the ground.</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>Response back from the fat and funded non-profits like Texas =
Eagle=20
    Forum, Clean Texas etc, that tout the subject?</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;Silence, didn't even bother to reply. Sound familar? =
compare it=20
    with research for new energy. It's not a conspiracy, its a =
lethargy.</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>Richard</DIV>
    <P>&nbsp;</P></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 14 18:46:03 2005
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Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 21:44:20 -0500
From: Harry Veeder <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: NKS 2006 Wolfram Science Conference
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> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "The NKS 2006 Organizing Committee" <nksconference wolframscience.com>
> To: <walhalla cvtv.net>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2005 7:21 PM
> Subject: NKS 2006 Wolfram Science Conference
> 
> 
>> We would like to invite you to the NKS 2006 Wolfram Science
>> Conference, to be held June 16-18 in Washington, DC.
<snip>
>> 
>> NKS is a field that is now at a particularly exciting stage, and
>> there'll be a lot to discuss at the NKS 2006 Wolfram Science
>> Conference. Here are a few of the more ambitious questions now
>> coming over the horizon:
<snip>
>> - What will be the first major industry created by mining the
>> computational universe?

It is here now, in the form of the knowledge industry.
By means of spurious fee known as the cost of "tuition"
the student gives up the resource rights to his mind&body
in return for some brightly coloured beads of knowledge.

Harry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 14 19:25:32 2005
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At 06:12 pm 14/12/2005 -0500, Jed wrote:

> They were built with "suspenders and a belt" 
> as engineers put it, 

The expression is "belt and braces". 
Translate it into American English
and you destroy the alliteration.

A B&B Engineer



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Jed - the picture looks pretty much the same from here...

BTW, do you recall what year Reding died?


Steve

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From: thomas malloy <temalloy usfamily.net>
Subject: anisotropic universe
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Vortexians;

I'm wondering if I understand the author's thesis. Light propagated 
at directions other than on a certain axis rotates in a certain 
direction, depending on the amount of deviation from that axis.

http://www.cc.rochester.edu/College/RTC/Borge/aniso.html


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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 15 01:58:25 2005
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Subject: Re: OffTopic: Lust and the bible
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I posted;

And Steven Johnson
>
>
>Greetings Thomas,
>
>>  Vortexians;
>>
>>  I found the response to this thread interesting, it was
>>  as if I'd been subscribed to a religious list.
>
>I think you're right on that one. (Some are complaining about this 
>too! They might have a point.)

I surprised by the number of posters who have sided with my side

>
>And then, there's the phrase: Accept no other god other than me as 
>the true god.

Exactly

>
>It would seem that within your perception of reality Satan is indeed 
>a very clever fellow.

He's the one who started this mess. Then there is his writing, which 
is quite persuasive. OTOH, he repeats the same themes. The occult, if 
you don't know what you're looking for, you'll never see it, but if 
you do know what you're looking for, you'll never miss it.

>
>It would seem that, for you, brand loyalty is worth fighting for 
>(I'm not speaking in the most literal terms here), where the final 
>body count is everything.
>
How do you know you've chosen the right brand?

I'm a sheep of Israel. I was chosen by G-d.

I've been listening to Peter Gerstein, the UFO Lawyer being 
interviewed on C to C AM. He has the same blind stop that you do 
Steven. His URL is www.pagenews.info . He realized that this is a 
closed system, ergo UFO's are based in this solar system. I'm sure 
that he would agree with me that humans, in their present evil form, 
equipped with a F T L drive, would be a blight on the universe. He 
claims to have read all the books on UFO's but he pointedly didn't 
mention Jacque Vallie, George Noory mentioned him, and Peter ignored 
it. Anyone who has read the books knows that the replilians are blood 
sucking liars. He has also fought the establishment in court for the 
release of documents related to the phenomena, he was thwarted by 
their pleading national security.  He can also see that things are 
rapidly coming to a head. If he is right, we will enter the final 
seven years on Dec 21. OTOH, he doesn't believe in the Biblical world 
view. Given the similarity of your world views, you might be 
interested in subscribing to his newsletter.






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From: OrionWorks <orionworks charter.net>
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Subject: Re: OffTopic: Lust and the bible
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 12:04:07 -0600
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> From: Standing Bear

...

> Enough rant for one day!
>
> Standing Bear

[NOTE: My Charter.net mail server is once again acting flaky. I don't know if others have received Mr. Bear's latest comments or not. I've received Mr. Bear's post through our server at work, but not through normal channels - my Charter.net server. So keep that in mind if you haven't yet received his post.]


Goodness me, Mr. Bear! What jerked your chain today!

Concerning your warnings, and the many broad sweeping subjects expressed in your latest post I find it amusing that you've also managed to generate one of the most lengthy and turgidly detailed responses to date. Well...actually MANY topics were discussed!

Mr. Beaty, this is your list. In the end you must decide if subject threads like the current one are getting way too off-topic. I have heard complains from other members that Vortex-l has suffered, that real science is being crowded out and replaced with endless topics based more on the expression of personal eccentricities.

It's entertaining, for sure, but strictly speaking it isn't the pursuit of science - even new and/or controversial science. I also admit that I'm guilty of having contributed my own brand of eccentric non-scientific opinions on this topic as well.

But getting back to some of the comments by the esteemed Mr. Bear.

Concerning our genetic heritage. Despite my jabs of humor directed at your expense I find much of what you have discussed intriguing and maybe possibly even accurate (well...possibly to a certain extent). However, there really isn't any way to prove or disprove any of it - for now. At present it seems to me to be more a modern myth as compared to an intriguing anthropological theory.

Please keep in mind that in my book a good myth is ok, too!

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

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Subject: RE: OffTopic: Lust and the bible
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Hang on, hang on, the reply and forwarding of emails makes it look like I
wrote this sh.t below. Cut it out Mr Revtec, how dare you!

No more from this thread from me unless it particularly funny because I do
like a good joke.

Jokes anyone, please let's have at least one joke posting per week. 

-----Original Message-----
From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On
Behalf Of revtec
Sent: 14 December 2005 22:24
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: OffTopic: Lust and the bible


----- Original Message ----- 
From: <R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2005 8:53 AM
Subject: RE: OffTopic: Lust and the bible


> The ones who lusted left heaven long ago and came here. According to
> the Book of Enoch, they are imprisoned here awaiting judgment.

And, who will judge them?  According to Paul, it is us!

1st Corinthians 6:3 "Do you not know that we shall judge angels?"

Is it these angels or all of them?

What qualifies us to do that?

Is it because that we, in the course of living our human lives, are
graduates of the school of hard knocks.  Whereas, the angels have not had to
survive the kinds of challenges we routinely face?

Jeff

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Of Interest for "Activated" Palladium?
http://www.ias.ac.in/pramana/v65/p815/abs.htm
Fluorescent silver nanoparticles via exploding wire technique
ALQUDAMI ABDULLAH and S ANNAPOORNI*
Department of Physics and  Astrophysics, University of Delhi, Delhi 110 007, India
*Corresponding author. E-mail: annapoorni physics.du.ac.in;
aalqudami physics.du.ac.in
Abstract. Aqueous solution containing spherical silver
nanoparticles of  20--80 nm size have been generated  using a newly
developed novel electro-exploding wire (EEW) technique where thin silver
wires have been exploded in double distilled water. Structural properties of
the resulted nanoparticles have been studied by means of X-ray
diffractometer (XRD) and transmission electron microscopy (TEM). The
absorption spectrum of the aqueous solution of silver nanoparticles showed
the appearance of a broad surface plasmon resonance (SPR) peak centered at  a
wavelength of 390 nm. The theoretically generated SPR peak seems to be in
good agreement with the experimental one. Strong green fluorescence emission
was observed from the water-suspended silver nanoparticles excited with
light of wavelengths 340, 360 and 390 nm. The fluorescence of silver
nanoparticles could be due to the excitation of the surface plasmon coherent
electronic motion with the small size effect and the surface effect
considerations."
Fred
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8
Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

<HTML><HEAD>
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2802" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt"><FONT size=3>Of Interest for "Activated" Palladium?</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt"><A href="http://www.ias.ac.in/pramana/v65/p815/abs.htm"><FONT size=3>http://www.ias.ac.in/pramana/v65/p815/abs.htm</FONT></A></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt">Fluorescent silver <SPAN class=SpellE>nanoparticles</SPAN> via exploding wire technique</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt"></SPAN>ALQUDAMI ABDULLAH and <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place>S ANNAPOORNI</st1:place><SUP>*</SUP><?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>Department of Physics <SPAN class=GramE>and<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>Astrophysics</SPAN>, <st1:place><st1:PlaceType>University</st1:PlaceType> of <st1:PlaceName>Delhi</st1:PlaceName></st1:place>, <st1:City><st1:place>Delhi</st1:place></st1:City> 110 007, <st1:country-region><st1:place>India</st1:place></st1:country-region><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SUP>*</SUP>Corresponding author. E-mail: <SPAN class=SpellE>annapoorni physics.du.ac.in</SPAN>;<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=SpellE><A href="mailto:aalqudami physics.du.ac.in">aalqudami@physics.du.ac.in</A></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=SpellE></SPAN><B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">Abstract. </B>Aqueous solution containing spherical silver<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=SpellE><SPAN class=GramE>nanoparticles</SPAN></SPAN> of<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>20--80 nm size have been generated<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>using a newly<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=GramE>developed</SPAN> novel electro-exploding wire (EEW) technique where thin silver<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=GramE>wires</SPAN> have been exploded in double distilled water. Structural properties of<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=GramE>the</SPAN> resulted <SPAN class=SpellE>nanoparticles</SPAN> have been studied by means of X-ray<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=SpellE><SPAN class=GramE>diffractometer</SPAN></SPAN> (XRD) and transmission electron microscopy (TEM). The<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=GramE>absorption</SPAN> spectrum of the aqueous solution of silver <SPAN class=SpellE>nanoparticles</SPAN> showed<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=GramE>the</SPAN> appearance of a broad surface <SPAN class=SpellE>plasmon</SPAN> resonance (SPR) peak centered at<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>a<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=GramE>wavelength</SPAN> of 390 nm. The theoretically generated SPR peak seems to be in<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=GramE>good</SPAN> agreement with the experimental one. Strong green fluorescence emission<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=GramE>was</SPAN> observed from the water-suspended silver <SPAN class=SpellE>nanoparticles</SPAN> excited with<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=GramE>light</SPAN> of wavelengths 340, 360 and 390 nm. The fluorescence of silver<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=SpellE><SPAN class=GramE>nanoparticles</SPAN></SPAN> could be due to the excitation of the surface <SPAN class=SpellE>plasmon</SPAN> coherent<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=GramE>electronic</SPAN> motion with the small size effect and the surface effect<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=GramE>considerations</SPAN>."</P>
<P class=MsoNormal>Fred</P></FONT></BODY></HTML>
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Subject: Re: Exploding Wires in D2O, Simulates Cavitation Bubble Collapse?
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Things might get really interesting if Pd wires are exploded
in a 200-400 atmosphere pressure D2 gas.

Previously posted URL:

http://www.ias.ac.in/chemsci/Pdf-OctDec2003/Pc3336.pdf

Fred
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Frederick Sparber 
To: vortex-l
Sent: 12/15/2005 4:51:18 AM 
Subject: Re: Exploding Wires in D2O, Simulates Cavitation Bubble Collapse?


Of Interest for "Activated" Palladium?
http://www.ias.ac.in/pramana/v65/p815/abs.htm
Fluorescent silver nanoparticles via exploding wire technique
ALQUDAMI ABDULLAH and S ANNAPOORNI*
Department of Physics and  Astrophysics, University of Delhi, Delhi 110 007, India
*Corresponding author. E-mail: annapoorni physics.du.ac.in;
aalqudami physics.du.ac.in
Abstract. Aqueous solution containing spherical silver
nanoparticles of  20--80 nm size have been generated  using a newly
developed novel electro-exploding wire (EEW) technique where thin silver
wires have been exploded in double distilled water. Structural properties of
the resulted nanoparticles have been studied by means of X-ray
diffractometer (XRD) and transmission electron microscopy (TEM). The
absorption spectrum of the aqueous solution of silver nanoparticles showed
the appearance of a broad surface plasmon resonance (SPR) peak centered at  a
wavelength of 390 nm. The theoretically generated SPR peak seems to be in
good agreement with the experimental one. Strong green fluorescence emission
was observed from the water-suspended silver nanoparticles excited with
light of wavelengths 340, 360 and 390 nm. The fluorescence of silver
nanoparticles could be due to the excitation of the surface plasmon coherent
electronic motion with the small size effect and the surface effect
considerations."
Fred
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<DIV>
<DIV>Things might get really interesting if Pd wires are exploded</DIV>
<DIV>in a 200-400&nbsp;atmosphere pressure&nbsp;D2 gas.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Previously posted URL:</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://www.ias.ac.in/chemsci/Pdf-OctDec2003/Pc3336.pdf" rel=nofollow>http://www.ias.ac.in/chemsci/Pdf-OctDec2003/Pc3336.pdf</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Fred</DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=fjsparber earthlink.net href="mailto:fjsparber@earthlink.net">Frederick Sparber</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To: </B><A title=vortex-l eskimo.com href="mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com">vortex-l</A></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> 12/15/2005 4:51:18 AM </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Exploding Wires in D2O, Simulates Cavitation Bubble Collapse?</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><FONT size=2><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt"><FONT size=3>Of Interest for "Activated" Palladium?</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt"><A href="http://www.ias.ac.in/pramana/v65/p815/abs.htm"><FONT size=3>http://www.ias.ac.in/pramana/v65/p815/abs.htm</FONT></A></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt">Fluorescent silver <SPAN class=SpellE>nanoparticles</SPAN> via exploding wire technique</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt"></SPAN>ALQUDAMI ABDULLAH and <st1:place>S ANNAPOORNI</st1:place><SUP>*</SUP><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>Department of Physics <SPAN class=GramE>and<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>Astrophysics</SPAN>, <st1:place><st1:PlaceType>University</st1:PlaceType> of <st1:PlaceName>Delhi</st1:PlaceName></st1:place>, <st1:City><st1:place>Delhi</st1:place></st1:City> 110 007, <st1:country-region><st1:place>India</st1:place></st1:country-region><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SUP>*</SUP>Corresponding author. E-mail: <SPAN class=SpellE>annapoorni physics.du.ac.in</SPAN>;<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=SpellE><A href="mailto:aalqudami physics.du.ac.in">aalqudami@physics.du.ac.in</A></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=SpellE></SPAN><B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">Abstract. </B>Aqueous solution containing spherical silver<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=SpellE><SPAN class=GramE>nanoparticles</SPAN></SPAN> of<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>20--80 nm size have been generated<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>using a newly<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=GramE>developed</SPAN> novel electro-exploding wire (EEW) technique where thin silver<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=GramE>wires</SPAN> have been exploded in double distilled water. Structural properties of<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=GramE>the</SPAN> resulted <SPAN class=SpellE>nanoparticles</SPAN> have been studied by means of X-ray<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=SpellE><SPAN class=GramE>diffractometer</SPAN></SPAN> (XRD) and transmission electron microscopy (TEM). The<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=GramE>absorption</SPAN> spectrum of the aqueous solution of silver <SPAN class=SpellE>nanoparticles</SPAN> showed<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=GramE>the</SPAN> appearance of a broad surface <SPAN class=SpellE>plasmon</SPAN> resonance (SPR) peak centered at<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>a<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=GramE>wavelength</SPAN> of 390 nm. The theoretically generated SPR peak seems to be in<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=GramE>good</SPAN> agreement with the experimental one. Strong green fluorescence emission<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=GramE>was</SPAN> observed from the water-suspended silver <SPAN class=SpellE>nanoparticles</SPAN> excited with<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=GramE>light</SPAN> of wavelengths 340, 360 and 390 nm. The fluorescence of silver<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=SpellE><SPAN class=GramE>nanoparticles</SPAN></SPAN> could be due to the excitation of the surface <SPAN class=SpellE>plasmon</SPAN> coherent<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=GramE>electronic</SPAN> motion with the small size effect and the surface effect<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=GramE>considerations</SPAN>."</P>
<P class=MsoNormal>Fred</P></FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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Hi Thomas,
See the Author's link to Science news
http://www.sciencenews.org/pages/sn_arc97/4_26_97/fob1.asp

The view and the opposing view discussed including the "big bang". Actually, 
light may traverse in a spiral while spinning similar to a DNA 
configuration.
This would also describe the function of the New York Times' method of 
reporting the " news".
Richard

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "thomas malloy" <temalloy usfamily.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2005 3:30 AM
Subject: anisotropic universe


> Vortexians;
>
> I'm wondering if I understand the author's thesis. Light propagated at 
> directions other than on a certain axis rotates in a certain direction, 
> depending on the amount of deviation from that axis.
>
> http://www.cc.rochester.edu/College/RTC/Borge/aniso.html
>
>
> --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! --  
> http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---
>
> 


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Richard,

Stop agonizing over the politics and beat the Bush/s.  So to speak. :-)

For our rural home we pay WM $51.00 for three months haul-off service.

Fred



http://www.wm.com/WM/environmental/Bioreactor/technologies.asp

http://www.wm.com/WM/environmental/Bioreactor/index.asp

"At Waste Management, we are proud that we were at the forefront in developing and implementing many of the practices, such as leachate and gas collection and management that now constitute the standards for environmentally responsible landfill design and operation. We believe bioreactor landfill technology represents the next generation in landfill design and operational practices."
"Simply put, bioreactor landfill technology accelerates the biological decomposition of organic wastes in a landfill by promoting conditions necessary for the microorganisms that degrade the waste. In practice, this is accomplished by controlling the addition and removal of moisture from the waste mass, the collection and extraction of landfill gas, and in some instances the addition of air."
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<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>Richard,</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Stop agonizing over the politics and beat the Bush/s.&nbsp;&nbsp;So to&nbsp;speak.&nbsp;:-)</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>For our rural home we pay WM $51.00 for three months haul-off service.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Fred</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><A href="http://www.wm.com/WM/environmental/Bioreactor/technologies.asp">http://www.wm.com/WM/environmental/Bioreactor/technologies.asp</A></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://www.wm.com/WM/environmental/Bioreactor/index.asp">http://www.wm.com/WM/environmental/Bioreactor/index.asp</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>"At Waste Management, we are proud that we were at the forefront in developing and implementing many of the practices, such as leachate and gas collection and management that now constitute the standards for environmentally responsible landfill design and operation. We believe bioreactor landfill technology represents the next generation in landfill design and operational practices."</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>"Simply put, </FONT><A href="http://www.wm.com/WM/environmental/Bioreactor/WM/environmental/Bioreactor/technologies.asp"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>bioreactor landfill technology</FONT></A><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> accelerates the biological decomposition of organic wastes in a landfill by promoting conditions necessary for the microorganisms that degrade the waste. In practice, this is accomplished by controlling the addition and removal of moisture from the waste mass, the collection and extraction of landfill gas, and in some instances the addition of air."</FONT><BR></DIV></FONT><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT></BODY></HTML>
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Vo,

This was shown on the BBC last night. Newsnight is a very renowned news and
current affairs programme and last night a special edition was set aside
where two prominent barristers conducted a trial into the Allies behaviour
in the War on Terrorism. It was very graphic and not for the squeamish. This
is not the way and it is very sad that this is done in our names...

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/default.stm
<http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/default.stm> 

 

Follow the link for the video.

Remi.

.......................................

Website

http://luna.bton.ac.uk/~roc1 <http://luna.bton.ac.uk/~roc1> 

.......................................

 


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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Vo,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>This was shown on the BBC last night. Newsnight is a =
very renowned
news and current affairs programme and last night a special edition was =
set
aside where two prominent barristers conducted a trial into the Allies
behaviour in the War on Terrorism. It was very graphic and not for the =
squeamish.
This is not the way and it is very sad that this is done in our =
names&#8230;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><a
href=3D"http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/default.stm">htt=
p://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/default.stm</a><o:p></o:p><=
/span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Follow the link for the =
video.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Remi.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230=
;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;<o:p></o=
:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Website<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><a
href=3D"http://luna.bton.ac.uk/~roc1" =
title=3D"http://luna.bton.ac.uk/~roc1">http://luna.bton.ac.uk/~roc1</a><=
o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
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style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230=
;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;</span><=
/font><font
size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p></o:p></span></font></=
p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
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12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

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Subject: Re: Space Tourist Trade 
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 07:27:15 -0700
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Can't wait for the Space Elevator?

http://www.space.com/news/051213_virgin_galactic.html

"Sir Richard Branson’s Virgin Galactic space travel company has ironed out an agreement to utilize a futuristic spaceport to be built in New Mexico, with first flights of a suborbital spaceliner now planned in late 2008, early 2009. 
Details of the agreement were discussed today in a press event called by Virgin Galactic and held at The Science Museum’s Alien Exhibition hall in London, England."
Fred
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<HTML><HEAD>
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2802" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Can't wait&nbsp;for the Space Elevator?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2><A href="http://www.space.com/news/051213_virgin_galactic.html">http://www.space.com/news/051213_virgin_galactic.html</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: windowtext; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">"Sir Richard Branson’s Virgin Galactic </SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: windowtext; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">space travel company has ironed out an agreement to utilize a futuristic spaceport to be built in New Mexico, with first flights of a suborbital spaceliner now planned in late 2008, early 2009. </SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: windowtext; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Details of the agreement were discussed today in a press event called by Virgin Galactic and held at The Science Museum’s Alien Exhibition hall in London, England."</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: windowtext; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Fred</SPAN></P></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 15 07:06:51 2005
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From: "John Steck" <johnsteck tetrahelix.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: DON'T PANIC!
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 09:06:09 -0600
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You have the right idea... But not much biomass around them, eh?  To make
the logistics cost effective, proximity to population concentrations is
essential.

-john

-----Original Message-----
From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net] 
Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2005 6:38 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: RE: DON'T PANIC!


W#ould you settle for some old H bomb cavities blown underground in Nevada,
John?  :-)

Fred 


> [Original Message]
> From: John Steck <johnsteck tetrahelix.com>
> To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> Date: 12/14/2005 3:44:01 PM
> Subject: RE: DON'T PANIC!
>
> Good use of those abandoned properties... Plus land cost would be 
> ideal. But I am not picturing a 'green' landfill.  I am thinking more 
> deep
missile
> silo type structures to idealize prime conditions and collection.  
> Apply steam to accelerate the process?  Pair it up with geothermal to 
> avoid the energy cost?  Worlds largest methanol still?
>
> Like it even more now.  -john
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2005 3:44 PM
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: RE: DON'T PANIC!
>
>
> TVA  area and other strip-mine sites, John?
> The repositories could be engineered for plant nutrient 
> recovery also.
>
> Fred
>
>
> > [Original Message]
> > From: John Steck <johnsteck tetrahelix.com>
> > To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> > Date: 12/14/2005 1:58:43 PM
> > Subject: RE: DON'T PANIC!
> >
> > With the price of natural gas not looking to go down any time soon,
> > might not be a bad business plan to start a company with.  Land, 
> > collection, and fermenting time would be your biggest expenses.... But 
> > once you got past
> the
> > initial startup delay, keeping it producing would only be a 
> > caretaker
> > activity.
> >
> > I like it.  -john
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net]
> > Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2005 11:33 AM
> > To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> > Subject: RE: DON'T PANIC!
> >
> >
> > A short term effort that I practice, John, is to throw every bit of
> > biodegradeable material I can  into the trash bin headed to landfill. 
> > Do that with all of the agro-produced waste (that normally oxidizes
> > aerobically) in area repositories and there will be significant 
> > amounts of "Natural Gas" CH4 available in a couple of decades.
> >
> > Fred
> >
> > > [Original Message]
> > > From: John Steck <johnsteck tetrahelix.com>
> > > To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> > > Date: 12/14/2005 9:55:10 AM
> > > Subject: RE: DON'T PANIC!
> > >
> > > There are theories that petroleum is a by-product of chemical 
> > > reactions taking place sub-surface and percolating up through the 
> > > bedrock.  It's a theory postulated to explain why tapped out oil 
> > > fields have been
> > discovered
> > > to be filling back up.
> > >
> > > http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0387985468/026-0122312-68
> > > 51
> > > 65
> > > 5
> > >
> > > If true, peak oil will have to be redefined as the rate of
> > > consumption
> > > vs. rate of replenishment.  Might not help this civilization, but a 
> > > few
> > hundred
> > > thousand years should be enough to refill the tanks for the next 
> > > one to emerge after the next ice age / flood / asteroid cleansing.
> > > Hopefully
> > they
> > > will be prudent enough not to smelt down all the circuit boards in
> > > the
> > trash
> > > heaps for their precious metal content before they are smart 
> > > enough
> > > to
> > > decode our legacy from them.
> > >
> > > Wow.  Sorry about that.  Just bummed myself out....  My cynicism
> > > valve
> > seems
> > > to be stuck in the open position this morning.
> > >
> > > -john
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: hohlrauml6d netscape.net [mailto:hohlrauml6d@netscape.net]
> > > Sent: Monday, December 12, 2005 9:05 PM
> > > To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> > > Subject: DON'T PANIC!
> > >
> > >
> > > http://www.sacbee.com/content/opinion/story/13949592p-14784245c.ht
> > > ml
> > >
> > > Saudi "proven" reserves are shown at 262.7 billion barrels. In 
> > > 1989,
> > > Saudi "proven" reserves were reported at 260 billion barrels. No 
> > > significant fields have been discovered since then. How does one 
> > > explain the current reserve? Kuwait's Burgan Field (the 
> > > second-largest on Earth) has peaked and is in decline.
> > >
> > > <more>
> > >
> > > Keep your towel handy. 
> > > ___________________________________________________
> > > Try the New Netscape Mail Today!
> > > Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List 
> > > http://mail.netscape.com
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 15 08:16:31 2005
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
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Subject: RE: DON'T PANIC!
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In addition to active and abandoned strip mines there a lots of
played-out coal mines around that are near large amounts of rural home- agro
biomass sources. For example many govt subsidized ($35.00/acre)
set aside acreage farmlands have to be brush-hogged to collect the
subsidy. Many rural homeowners do this out of pocket on their 2 to 60+ acre
tracts.
With or without cutting, this biomass oxidizes aerobically with the energy
loss and CO2 release, as
does normal "plowing" of croplands where the residual stubble and roots
from harvested
crops or volunteer weeds are all that's required for soil humus and erosion
prevention.

The logistics for "waste harvest" and transport are simple and already in
place.
Unlike large, cost effective biomass conversion facilities which require a
particular feedstock
species, dirt-free and dry...like Mother Nature's repositories, a landfill
repository can handle about anything. The greener, wetter, dirtier the
better. Anaerobic Composting.

Waste Management's $17.00 per month charge for my rural trash pickup
probably
comes out close to $75.00 per ton.

OTOH farm crop waste from harvesting/collection to silo or grain elevator
are about $15.00/ton
more or less.

Fred

> [Original Message]
> From: John Steck <johnsteck tetrahelix.com>
> To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> Date: 12/15/2005 8:06:34 AM
> Subject: RE: DON'T PANIC!
>
> You have the right idea... But not much biomass around them, eh?  To make
> the logistics cost effective, proximity to population concentrations is
> essential.
>
> -john
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net] 
> Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2005 6:38 PM
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: RE: DON'T PANIC!
>
>
> W#ould you settle for some old H bomb cavities blown underground in
Nevada,
> John?  :-)
>
> Fred 
>
>
> > [Original Message]
> > From: John Steck <johnsteck tetrahelix.com>
> > To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> > Date: 12/14/2005 3:44:01 PM
> > Subject: RE: DON'T PANIC!
> >
> > Good use of those abandoned properties... Plus land cost would be 
> > ideal. But I am not picturing a 'green' landfill.  I am thinking more 
> > deep
> missile
> > silo type structures to idealize prime conditions and collection.  
> > Apply steam to accelerate the process?  Pair it up with geothermal to 
> > avoid the energy cost?  Worlds largest methanol still?
> >
> > Like it even more now.  -john
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net]
> > Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2005 3:44 PM
> > To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> > Subject: RE: DON'T PANIC!
> >
> >
> > TVA  area and other strip-mine sites, John?
> > The repositories could be engineered for plant nutrient 
> > recovery also.
> >
> > Fred
> >
> >
> > > [Original Message]
> > > From: John Steck <johnsteck tetrahelix.com>
> > > To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> > > Date: 12/14/2005 1:58:43 PM
> > > Subject: RE: DON'T PANIC!
> > >
> > > With the price of natural gas not looking to go down any time soon,
> > > might not be a bad business plan to start a company with.  Land, 
> > > collection, and fermenting time would be your biggest expenses....
But 
> > > once you got past
> > the
> > > initial startup delay, keeping it producing would only be a 
> > > caretaker
> > > activity.
> > >
> > > I like it.  -john
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2005 11:33 AM
> > > To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> > > Subject: RE: DON'T PANIC!
> > >
> > >
> > > A short term effort that I practice, John, is to throw every bit of
> > > biodegradeable material I can  into the trash bin headed to landfill. 
> > > Do that with all of the agro-produced waste (that normally oxidizes
> > > aerobically) in area repositories and there will be significant 
> > > amounts of "Natural Gas" CH4 available in a couple of decades.
> > >
> > > Fred
> > >
> > > > [Original Message]
> > > > From: John Steck <johnsteck tetrahelix.com>
> > > > To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> > > > Date: 12/14/2005 9:55:10 AM
> > > > Subject: RE: DON'T PANIC!
> > > >
> > > > There are theories that petroleum is a by-product of chemical 
> > > > reactions taking place sub-surface and percolating up through the 
> > > > bedrock.  It's a theory postulated to explain why tapped out oil 
> > > > fields have been
> > > discovered
> > > > to be filling back up.
> > > >
> > > > http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0387985468/026-0122312-68
> > > > 51
> > > > 65
> > > > 5
> > > >
> > > > If true, peak oil will have to be redefined as the rate of
> > > > consumption
> > > > vs. rate of replenishment.  Might not help this civilization, but a 
> > > > few
> > > hundred
> > > > thousand years should be enough to refill the tanks for the next 
> > > > one to emerge after the next ice age / flood / asteroid cleansing.
> > > > Hopefully
> > > they
> > > > will be prudent enough not to smelt down all the circuit boards in
> > > > the
> > > trash
> > > > heaps for their precious metal content before they are smart 
> > > > enough
> > > > to
> > > > decode our legacy from them.
> > > >
> > > > Wow.  Sorry about that.  Just bummed myself out....  My cynicism
> > > > valve
> > > seems
> > > > to be stuck in the open position this morning.
> > > >
> > > > -john
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: hohlrauml6d netscape.net [mailto:hohlrauml6d@netscape.net]
> > > > Sent: Monday, December 12, 2005 9:05 PM
> > > > To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> > > > Subject: DON'T PANIC!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > http://www.sacbee.com/content/opinion/story/13949592p-14784245c.ht
> > > > ml
> > > >
> > > > Saudi "proven" reserves are shown at 262.7 billion barrels. In 
> > > > 1989,
> > > > Saudi "proven" reserves were reported at 260 billion barrels. No 
> > > > significant fields have been discovered since then. How does one 
> > > > explain the current reserve? Kuwait's Burgan Field (the 
> > > > second-largest on Earth) has peaked and is in decline.
> > > >
> > > > <more>
> > > >
> > > > Keep your towel handy. 
> > > > ___________________________________________________
> > > > Try the New Netscape Mail Today!
> > > > Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List 
> > > > http://mail.netscape.com
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>



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From: "revtec" <revtec PTD.NET>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <2B4BE0070968EA45845CF7075B0CF3C801452FCE generalems.bton.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: OffTopic: Lust and the bible PLUS JOKES
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 12:37:33 -0500
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: <R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2005 5:58 AM
Subject: RE: OffTopic: Lust and the bible


> Hang on, hang on, the reply and forwarding of emails makes it look like I
> wrote this sh.t below. Cut it out Mr Revtec, how dare you!

My name is Jeff.  Jeff is spelled out at the bottom of my copy of the
message.  Don't know why it is not on yours.  Here are a few new jokes to
make you feel better.  I hope this makes up for any distress I caused you.

JEFF

THOUGHTS to PONDER

Life is sexually transmitted.

Good Health is merely the slowest possible rate at which one can die.

Give a person a fish and you feed them for a day; teach a person to use
the Internet and they won't bother you for weeks.

Health nuts are going to feel stupid someday, lying in hospitals dying of
nothing.

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.

All of us could take a lesson from the weather.  It pays no attention to
criticism.

Why does a slight tax increase cost you two hundred dollars and a
substantial tax cut saves you thirty cents?

In the 60's, people took acid to make the world weird.  Now the world is
weird and people take Prozac to make it normal.

Politics is supposed to be the second oldest profession.  I have come
to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first.

I had amnesia once -- or twice.


Protons have mass?  I didn't even know they were Catholic.

All I ask is a chance to prove that money can't make me happy.

If the world were a logical place, men would ride horses sidesaddle.

What is a "free" gift?  Aren't all gifts free?

They told me I was gullible .... and I believed them.

Teach a child to be polite and courteous in the home and, when he
grows up, he'll never be able to merge his car onto a freeway.

Two can live as cheaply as one, for half as long.

Experience is the thing you have left when everything else is gone.

What if there were no hypothetical questions?

One nice thing about egotists: They don't talk about other people.

A flashlight is a case for holding dead batteries.

I used to be indecisive.  Now I'm not sure.

The cost of living hasn't affected its popularity.

Is Marx's tomb a communist plot?

Show me a man with both feet firmly on the ground, and I'll show
you a man who can't get his pants on or off.

It's not an optical illusion.  It just looks like one.

Is it my imagination or do buffalo wings taste like chicken?

>
> No more from this thread from me unless it particularly funny because I do
> like a good joke.
>
> Jokes anyone, please let's have at least one joke posting per week.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On
> Behalf Of revtec
> Sent: 14 December 2005 22:24
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: Re: OffTopic: Lust and the bible
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: <R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk>
> To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2005 8:53 AM
> Subject: RE: OffTopic: Lust and the bible
>
>
> > The ones who lusted left heaven long ago and came here. According to
> > the Book of Enoch, they are imprisoned here awaiting judgment.
>
> And, who will judge them?  According to Paul, it is us!
>
> 1st Corinthians 6:3 "Do you not know that we shall judge angels?"
>
> Is it these angels or all of them?
>
> What qualifies us to do that?
>
> Is it because that we, in the course of living our human lives, are
> graduates of the school of hard knocks.  Whereas, the angels have not had
to
> survive the kinds of challenges we routinely face?
>
> Jeff
>
>


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 15 09:47:17 2005
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Good. 
Join the Church of P.ss Take mass going on at a good comedy club.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 15 10:23:23 2005
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: WAY OFF TOPIC Making Saddam Hussein the enemy
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I was just writing to a friend in Europe, 
explaining that some Americans still believe that 
Saddam Hussein was responsible for the 9/11 
attack, and that he was in cahoots with Bin 
Laden. Europeans find it difficult to believe 
that anyone still buys that. They shouldn't, 
because a leading European statesman explained and perfected the technique:

"The art of leadership . . . consists in 
consolidating the attention of the people against 
a single adversary and taking care that nothing 
will split up that attention. . . . The leader of 
genius must have the ability to make different 
opponents appear as if they belonged to one category."

Adolf Hitler (1889–1945), Mein Kampf, vol. 1, ch. 3 (1925).

- Jed



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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 15 11:32:15 2005
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From: OrionWorks <orionworks charter.net>
Organization: OrionWorks
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
CC: <orionworks charter.net>
Subject: Re: OffTopic: Lust and the bible
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> From: thomas malloy 
>> And Steven Johnson (OrionWorks) [posted]:

Greetings Thomas,

Again, I'm guilty of contributing additional OT bandwidth... see below:

> I posted;

>>> I found the response to this thread interesting, it was
>>> as if I'd been subscribed to a religious list.
>
>> I think you're right on that one. (Some are complaining about this 
>> too! They might have a point.)

> I surprised by the number of posters who have sided with my side

Really? Who?

>> And then, there's the phrase: Accept no other god other than
>> me as the true god.

> Exactly

And which brand name is that?


>> It would seem that within your perception of reality Satan
>> is indeed a very clever fellow.

> He's the one who started this mess. Then there is his
> writing, which is quite persuasive. OTOH, he repeats the
> same themes. The occult, if you don't know what you're looking
> for, you'll never see it, but if you do know what you're
> looking for, you'll never miss it.

Ok, Thomas. Enlighten me. What [themes] should I be looking for?


>> It would seem that, for you, brand loyalty is worth
>> fighting for (I'm not speaking in the most literal terms
>> here), where the final body count is everything.
>> How do you know you've chosen the right brand?

> I'm a sheep of Israel. I was chosen by G-d.

With all due respect, Thomas, surely you can come up with a better response than that for IBR, (Intelligent Brand Recognition).

Sheep are routinely collected for sheering. Later in life, as they approach retirement age, they can look forward to being slaughtered. G-d chose this line of work for you?

Obviously, you are speaking in symbolic terms. But here's my problem, Thomas: It can be insanely difficult to figure out when you speak literally and when you are speaking symbolically, particularly since you have stated for the record that you're a creationist, and as such, you seem to take a lot of so-called historical events literally. It's obvious you're NOT a sheep - but what about the rest of the symbolism?


> I've been listening to Peter Gerstein, the UFO Lawyer being 
> interviewed on C to C AM. He has the same blind stop that you
> do Steven.

Feel free to elaborate in detail on what my "blind spot" is. This is your chance to set the record straight, Thomas. I have often described what I perceive are your blind spots, and as such, it is only fair that you receive equal billing.

> His URL is www.pagenews.info . 

BTW, the above URL is a broken link. AFAIKT there is no web site with the above URL. Googling the phrase "Peter Gerstein UFO" retrieves up one or two tepid hits, one being:

http://www.zoominfo.com/directory/Gersten_Peter_1361100.htm

> He realized that this is a closed system, ergo UFO's are
> based in this solar system. I'm sure that he would agree with
> me that humans, in their present evil form, equipped with a 
> F T L drive, would be a blight on the universe. He claims to
> have read all the books on UFO's but he pointedly didn't
> mention Jacque Vallie, George Noory mentioned him, and
> Peter ignored it. Anyone who has read the books knows that
> the replilians are blood sucking liars. 

Which books are you referring to, Thomas? UFO books and/or research attributed to Jacque Vallee? [Note spelling of last name] Your comments are highly confusing, if not grossly misleading. You seem to be implying in the above wording that Jacque Vallee believes that aliens are both reptilian and "blood sucking liars." Really?

IMHO, Jacque Vallee is one of the best UFO researchers around. I've read most of his books on the UFO phenomena. I would also highly recommend the reading of "Forbidden Science." IMHO, it is by far one of his best publications consisting of Vallee's own personal diary notes recorded during an fascinating time in UFO research [and documented suppression] back in the 1960s. That is why I state for the record that your comments (as stated above) are highly confusing if not downright misleading. In fact they are just plain ludicrous. 

> He has also fought
> the establishment in court for the release of documents
> related to the phenomena, he was thwarted by their pleading
> national security.  He can also see that things are 
> rapidly coming to a head. If he is right, we will enter
> the final seven years on Dec 21. OTOH, he doesn't believe
> in the Biblical world view. Given the similarity of your
> world views, you might be interested in subscribing to
> his newsletter.

Specifically what "world views" to do you suspect I might share with Mr. Gerstein?

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 15 12:00:16 2005
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Nature compares Wikipedia to Britannica
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See:

http://www.nature.com/news/2005/051212/pdf/438900a.pdf

Surprising conclusion: Jimmy Wales' Wikipedia comes close to 
Britannica in terms of the accuracy of its science entries, a Nature 
investigation finds.

- Jed


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Subject: EIA Says Oil Prices to Fall
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http://www.eia.doe.gov/neic/press/press265.html

"World crude oil prices, expressed in terms of the average price of 
imported light, low-sulfur crude oil to U.S. refiners, are projected to 
fall from current levels to about $47 per barrel in (2004 dollars) in 
2014, then rise to $54 per barrel in 2025 and $57 per barrel in 2030."

Guess they don't read Vortex. :-)
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 15 13:32:38 2005
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Those numbers look incredibly optimistic.  They also imply a level of price
stability that has to be nearly impossible over that span of time.

Jeff

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <hohlrauml6d netscape.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2005 4:13 PM
Subject: EIA Says Oil Prices to Fall


> http://www.eia.doe.gov/neic/press/press265.html
>
> "World crude oil prices, expressed in terms of the average price of
> imported light, low-sulfur crude oil to U.S. refiners, are projected to
> fall from current levels to about $47 per barrel in (2004 dollars) in
> 2014, then rise to $54 per barrel in 2025 and $57 per barrel in 2030."
>
> Guess they don't read Vortex. :-)
> ___________________________________________________
> Try the New Netscape Mail Today!
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 15 13:37:23 2005
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From: OrionWorks <orionworks charter.net>
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Subject: Re: Nature compares Wikipedia to Britannica
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 15:36:51 -0600
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Jed sez:

> See:
> 
> http://www.nature.com/news/2005/051212/pdf/438900a.pdf
> 
> Surprising conclusion: Jimmy Wales' Wikipedia comes
> close to Britannica in terms of the accuracy of its
> science entries, a Nature investigation finds.
> 
> - Jed

That is encouraging news.

It's obvious that Wikipedia represents a paradigm shift in the collection of useful information. Wikipedia's open architecture and self-regulation of the fact gathering process threatens the established authority of those who have strived to maintain control over the collection of information in our world. 

It may be sad to see some of these old tried and true repositories, like the Britannica, gradually become more irrelevant in the 21st century. They served a useful purpose. It cost money to collect information and obviously it was only fair that they charged for what they painstakingly edited and assembled. Wikipedia, OTOH, is essentially free and all the information within is free as well. The Internet has allowed the information revolution to explode within our lifetimes. Institutions, like the Britannica might try to counter with the warning that "you get what you pay for." OTOH, the spawn of disruptive technologies, as I believe Wikipedia is a direct descendent of, seems to make that dire warning moot.

Granted, Wikipedia may not be a perfect repository of every kind of information, nor should it be. Corporate trade secrets and national defense secrets obviously shouldn't be stored here. But for everything else...It would seem that ANYONE with a passion to share what they know about any particular subject can enter their accumulated knowledge base here. A perfect example of this is pertains to the phrase "ALL YOUR BASES ARE BELONG TO US". The first time I encountered this broken sentence structure was on a graphic of a parodied Iraqi Currency bill someone sent me via email just after the American invasion of Iraq. I didn't realize this phrase actually has a rather interesting history that goes back decades, all the way back to WWII or perhaps earlier. Wikipedia revealed what that history was to me. I doubt the Britannica would have bothered. It's such an eccentric bit of trivia. Within the commercial paradigm of selling encyclopedias it wouldn't have been economical to wast!
 e pages on the subject.

What Wikipedia has going for it is that through a gradual form of collective consensus there evolves an inherent self correcting mechanism that, in my view, appears to be a far more powerful and a more accurate editing feature than what any collection of high paid editor could give.

Oh, brave new world.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 15 14:12:19 2005
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OrionWorks wrote:

>That is encouraging news.

I think it shows how bad Britannica is, rather than how good Wikipedia is.


>It's obvious that Wikipedia represents a paradigm shift in the 
>collection of useful information. Wikipedia's open architecture and 
>self-regulation of the fact gathering process threatens the 
>established authority of those who have strived to maintain control 
>over the collection of information in our world.

I am not such a fan of Wikipedia. I agree it is good for many things, 
especially popular culture and noncontroversial subjects. But it is 
not a good way to gather and present information on cold fusion. I 
discussed my reasons in the talks section of the article on cold 
fusion: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Cold_fusion

I do not think they will attract many experts to write articles 
unless they implement some level of control and accountability.

On the other hand, Britannica does not appear to have any article on 
cold fusion.

It may sound counterintuitive, but I think that in the case of a 
highly partisan debate, it is better to look for information in web 
sites controlled by people on one side of the issue or the other 
side. To learn about a candidate's policy during an election you 
should look at the Republican and Democratic national committee sites 
or the candidate's own site, rather than a supposedly objective news 
magazine. Places like LENR-CANR.org and Infinite Energy present 
pro-cold fusion material, and if the skeptics see fit to do it, 
perhaps they will put together an anti-cold fusion site.

When writing about a controversy, I think it is better for the author 
to make his own position clear, and then to present a single coherent 
point of view. Wikipedia tries to present both points of view mixed 
together in one article. Not only is this confusing, it is seldom 
satisfactory to either side and what is worse, people sometimes erase 
or distorts statements written by opponents.

I must say though, you have to give Wikipedia credit for not shying 
away from criticizing themselves. See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Seigenthaler_Sr._Wikipedia_biography_controversy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Wikipedia

They have links to highly critical articles such as this:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/12/12/wikipedia_no_responsibility/

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/10/24/wikipedia_letters/

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 15 14:27:53 2005
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Maybe Wikipedia deserves more respect after all! This page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Wikipedia

. . . has a link to an attack by Correa et al.:

http://www.aetherometry.com/antiwikipedia/

Sometimes you can judge people by their enemies.

I agree with Wikipedia policy that it is not the right place for a 
detailed article on Aetherometry. If ever there was a subject that 
should be presented by supporters in their own webspace, Aetherometry is it.

Actually, I thought the Wiki article on Aetherometry was pretty good, 
and remarkably even handed. See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aetherometry

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 15 15:25:14 2005
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From: Harry Veeder <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: Correa attacks Wikipedia
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Of course these are early days, and competitors to wikipedia may emerge as
it did with browsers.

Harry 

Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Maybe Wikipedia deserves more respect after all! This page:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Wikipedia
> 
> . . . has a link to an attack by Correa et al.:
> 
> http://www.aetherometry.com/antiwikipedia/
> 
> Sometimes you can judge people by their enemies.
> 
> I agree with Wikipedia policy that it is not the right place for a
> detailed article on Aetherometry. If ever there was a subject that
> should be presented by supporters in their own webspace, Aetherometry is it.
> 
> Actually, I thought the Wiki article on Aetherometry was pretty good,
> and remarkably even handed. See:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aetherometry
> 
> - Jed
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 15 15:48:41 2005
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Harry Veeder wrote:

>Of course these are early days, and competitors to wikipedia may emerge as
>it did with browsers.

I expect the people at Wikipedia will welcome this. They would 
probably agree that their model does not work for all subjects. We 
need a variety of different online encyclopedias, some of them 
completely open to the public -- that anyone can change -- and others 
more restricted. The "one size fits all" model is inadequate. We also 
need sites such as LENR-CANR.org where authors publish papers and 
represent their own points of view and no one else's.

Wikipedia itself may become more sophisticated and it may implement 
different levels for different kinds of articles. As I said in the 
discussion section for the cold fusion article, if they want experts 
to write, they will have to promise those experts that their work 
will not be trashed. The work might be changed, but the expert author 
will be consulted, and if he objects his objections will be reviewed 
by other experts.

- Jed


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From: ThomasClark123 aol.com
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Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 19:25:14 EST
Subject: Re: Biefeld-Brown Effect by Carl Frederick Krafft (Electrogravitation & Antig...
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In a message dated 12/8/2005 4:42:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
ThomasClark123 aol.com writes:
I have listed a few quotes below  explaining the basic principles of 
electrogravitatoin, antigravity, and how flying saucers may work, as quoted from the 
publication entitled the Biefeld-Brown Effect by Carl Frederick Krafft 
(Electrogravitation & Antigravity Principles).
In addition to the above the book entitled, Nikola Tesla Free Energy and 
White Dove, Abelard Productions Inc., 1992 Global Communications, at 
Conspiracyjournal.com, gives very explicit details on how the Searl engine works on Pg. 44. 
 It mentions that the Searl craft could travel faster than the speed of 
light, since it travels in its own negative ion created vacuum and space where the 
theory of relativity is inapplicable.  The geometry of the Searl generator is 
such that it avoids flashover (maximum potential of ionization in air where 
energy is lost).  The Searl generator creates an ether density below the craft 
which is higher than above it to repell it away from Earth   Searl uses the law 
of squares to build the Searl generator.  I have one copy of the books 
written by Professor Searl, The Law of the Squares Truth Table The Secret of Searl 
Technology by Prof. J.R.R. Searl, M. Inst. Pi., but there are 6 others which I 
do not have do to lack of funds.   

The book The Energy Grid Bruce L. Cathie, Adventures Unlimited Press, 1990 
gives resonant unified field equations needed to understand antigravity and free 
energy perhaps as used in John Keely's inventions as quoted from the book 
below:

 "All major changes of physical state anywhere in the world are brought about 
by harmonic interactions of those manifestations which we refer to as light, 
gravity, mass, and electrical and magnetic forces.  The controlled 
manipulation of these resonant factors would in my hypothesis, make it possible to move 
mass from one point to another in space-time or to change the form of mass to a 
more, or to a less tangible state. Pg 5-6  The contraction or expansion of 
time could also be controlled by the same manipulations of harmonic pulsation's 
or resonance's, since time has a direct relationship with the speed of light.  
...The speed of light is not a constant.  Pg. 6
The unified field concept has been incorporated in the UFO grid system, in a 
harmonic sense  Pg 6. 

By doubling the c, or light values in the harmonic unified equation based on 
the equation E=MC^2, gravitational effect becomes possible. 

...I did extend my harmonics to 5 figures.  I then found a harmonic unified 
field equation. 

Pg 6 to 7, The Energy Grid Bruce L. Cathie, Adventures Unlimited Press, 1990 "


The equations given by Konstantine Meyl in his book Scalar Waves also are 
very similar to the resonant harmonic field equations given above by Bruce Cathie 
in his book the Energy Grid. The Energy Grid book also discusses the theory 
of a Unified Field Grid on Earth used by UFO to travel through space by means 
of altering the frequency rate of matter-antimatter cycle as quoted from the 
book below:

"Light or any other radiant energy above or below light frequency, is 
therefore manifested by undetectable changes in the radius of the spiral motion of 
the electron during the antimatter cycle. If this hypothesis is correct, 
movement from one point in space to another, regardless of apparent distance - in 
other words, true space travel - is completely feasible.  Pg 12, The Energy Grid 
Bruce L. Cathie, Adventures Unlimited Press, 1990 

If the frequency of pulse manifestation is altered even fractionally our 
awareness of reality in the physical sense will shift from one spatial point to 
another. In fact, we would travel from one point in space to another without 
being aware that we had traversed distance in the physical sense. Pg 12, The 
Energy Grid Bruce L. Cathie, Adventures Unlimited Press, 1990 

By manipulating the frequency rate of the matter-antimatter cycle, the time 
and speed of light can be varied in direct proportion to any desired value. 
This I believe is the method of propulsion used by UFO's, and it is at the core 
of the theory upon which I have constructed the global UFO grid system. Pg 13, 
The Energy Grid Bruce L. Cathie, Adventures Unlimited Press, 1990 "

A NASA article quoted below shows how to levitate objects in a cavity with 
microwaves. If we assume that the atmosphere of Earth is a cavity (ground to 
different layers of atmosphere) or we create an artificial cavity around an 
object or a ship in the air by means of ions, then we should be able to levitate 
objects in Earth's atmosphere if we can discover the proper electromagnetic 
resonant mode based on the dimensions of the chamber, the frequency of the 
microwave signal, the dielectricity of the object and gas or atmosphere around the 
object, and the limit of microwave heating of the object.

Microwave levitation of small objects, NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory, 
Pasadena California, John L. Watkins and Henry W. Jackson of Caltech. 

"Microwave radiation in resonant cavities would be used to levitate small 
objects, according to a proposal. .... In principle, almost any electrically 
polarizable material could be levitated by microwaves.  Unlike in magnetic or 
electrostatic levitation, no feedback control system would be required to keep the 
levitated object at a position of stable equilibrium. Unlike in acoustic 
levitation it would not be necessary to maintain an atmosphere of a particular gas 
at a particular temperature and pressure in the levitation chamber.  

The principle of microwave levitation is reminiscent of that of acoustic 
levitation in that the time-average square of the magnitude of the electric field 
plays a role analogous to that of the time-averaged square of the acoustic 
pressure.  A small object that has an electric primitivity grater than that of 
the atmosphere (this is always true if the atmosphere is a vacuum) experiences a 
net time-averaged dielectric force in the direction of increasing magnitude 
of electric field; more specifically the time-averaged force is proportional to 
the gradient of the time-averaged square of the electric field. 

Exploiting this principle, the dimensions of the levitation chamber, the 
frequency of the microwave signal, and the method of coupling the signal into the 
cavity would be chosen to excite a resonant electromagnetic mode or modes in 
which there would be at least on position away from the walls, from which the 
magnitude of the electric field would decrease in all directions. Such a 
position can be found by analysis of the electromagnetic modes of the chamber. 
Quoted from Microwave levitation of small objects, NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory, 
Pasadena California, John L. Watkins and Henry W. Jackson of Caltech.  "

"Gravitational Propulsion via Mobius Electromagnetics  by Don Reed

This new propulsion principle is based upon a heretofore unsuspected feature 
of electromagnetic energy which will allow a resonant spherically polarized 
electromagnetic field to become coupled to gravitation or inertial fields. This 
results in a decrease of the intrinsic gravitational potential of the body 
with respect to the Earth by negation of the weight of the mass in question. 
Quoted from Pg1

Shinichi Seike The principles of Ultrarelativity - ...Documented 
demonstration of the loss of weight in an activated coil, publicly before a recent meeting 
of the Physical Society of Japan.  Sieke describes the process of 
gravitational de-coupling, as due to an introduction of "negative" energy into a physical 
system by imposition of an electromagnetic field configuration that 
dynamically mimics the topology of a so-called non-orientable structure such as a 
Mobius band or a Klein bottle. Quoted from Pg 1"

The book Electrogravatic systems, Reports on a new propulsion system, Edited 
by Thomas Valone, Integrity Research Institute, 2001, details letters written 
around 1955, that hint that they were close to understanding how to build 
electrogravatic saucers that could travel at Mach 3 during those years.  "50,000 
is a magic figure for the combat saucer - it is the amount of KVA (killovolts 
per amp?) and this amount of K (ability of condenser to hold its charge 
(ceramic))  that can be translated into Mach 3 speeds. Pg 35."


Other books of interest that I am presently reading:

The cosmic matrix piece for a jigsaw puzzle part 2- Leonard G. Cramp
Occult Ether Physics Tesla's Hidden Space Propulsion System and the 
Conspiracy to Conceal It  By William Lyne
The Law of the Squares Truth Table The Secret of Searl Technology by Prof. 
J.R.R. Searl, M. Inst. Pi.
The Energy Grid Bruce L. Cathie, Adventures Unlimited Press, 1990
Otc-X1 Saucer Space Craft Model Trademark of OTC enterprises (Otis T. Carr)
The fantastic inventions of Nikola Tesla by Nikola Tesla and David H. 
Childress, 1993 by Adventures Unlimited Press
Incredible Technologies of the New World Order UFO's Tesla Area 51 by 
Commander X Abelard Productions Inc. , Global Communications New Brunswick NJ, 
conspiracyjournal.com
The Lost Journals of Nikola Tesla Harrp-- Chemtrails and the Secret of 
Alternative 4  Tim Swartz Global Communications conspiracyjournal.com
Nikola Tesla Free Energy and White Dove Abelard Productions Inc. 1992 Global 
Communications Conspiracyjournal.com


Baron Von Volsung, http://www.rhfweb.com/baron, Email: 
http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html
President Thomas D. Clark, Email: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html, 
Personal Web Page: http://www.rhfweb.com/personal
New Age Production's Inc., http://www.rhfweb.com/newage
Star Haven Community Services, at http://www.rhfweb.com/sh
Radiation Health Foundation Trust at http://www.rhfweb.com/

Making a difference one person at a time
Get informed. Inform others.

 

-------------------------------1134692714
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML><HEAD>
<META charset=3DUS-ASCII http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; cha=
rset=3DUS-ASCII">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2802" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fffff=
f">
<DIV>
<DIV>In a message dated 12/8/2005 4:42:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, ThomasCl=
ark123 aol.com writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue=20=
2px solid"><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I have listed a few quotes below&nbsp=
; explaining the basic principles of electrogravitatoin, antigravity, and ho=
w flying saucers may work, as quoted from the publication entitled the <STRO=
NG>Biefeld-Brown Effect by Carl Frederick Krafft</STRONG> (Electrogravitatio=
n &amp; Antigravity Principles).</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><STRONG>In addition to the above the book entitled, Nikola Tesla Free E=
nergy and White Dove, Abelard Productions Inc., 1992 Global Communications,=20=
at&nbsp;Conspiracyjournal.com,</STRONG> gives very explicit details on how t=
he Searl engine works on Pg. 44.&nbsp; It mentions that the Searl craft coul=
d travel faster than the speed of light, since it travels in its own negativ=
e ion created vacuum and space where the theory of relativity is inapplicabl=
e.&nbsp; The geometry of the Searl generator is such that it avoids flashove=
r (maximum potential of ionization in air where energy is lost).&nbsp; The S=
earl generator creates an ether density below the craft which is higher than=
 above it to repell it away from Earth&nbsp;&nbsp; Searl uses the law of squ=
ares to build the Searl generator.&nbsp; I have one copy of the books writte=
n by Professor Searl, The Law of the Squares Truth Table The Secret of Searl=
 Technology by Prof. J.R.R. Searl, M. Inst. Pi., but there are 6 others whic=
h I do not have do to lack of funds.&nbsp;&nbsp; </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><STRONG>The book The Energy Grid Bruce L. Cathie, Adventures Unlimited=20=
Press, 1990 </STRONG>gives resonant unified field equations needed to unders=
tand antigravity and free energy perhaps as used in John Keely's inventions=20=
as quoted from the book below:</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;"All major changes of physical state anywhere in the world are br=
ought about by harmonic interactions of those manifestations which we refer=20=
to as light, gravity, mass, and electrical and magnetic forces.&nbsp; The co=
ntrolled manipulation of these resonant factors would in my hypothesis, make=
 it possible to move mass from one point to another in space-time or to chan=
ge the form of mass to a more, or to a less tangible state. Pg 5-6&nbsp; The=
 contraction or expansion of time could also be controlled by the same manip=
ulations of harmonic pulsation's or resonance's, since time has a direct rel=
ationship with the speed of light.&nbsp; ...The speed of light is not a cons=
tant.&nbsp; Pg. 6<BR>The unified field concept has been incorporated in the=20=
UFO grid system, in a harmonic sense&nbsp; Pg 6. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>By doubling the c, or light values in the harmonic unified equation bas=
ed on the equation E=3DMC^2, gravitational effect becomes possible. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>...I did extend my harmonics to 5 figures.&nbsp; I then found a harmoni=
c unified field equation. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Pg 6 to 7, The Energy Grid Bruce L. Cathie, Adventures Unlimited Press,=
 1990 "</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><STRONG>The equations given by Konstantine Meyl in his book Scalar Wave=
s also are very similar to the resonant harmonic field equations given above=
 by Bruce Cathie in his book the Energy Grid. The Energy Grid book also disc=
usses the theory of a Unified Field Grid on Earth used by UFO to travel thro=
ugh space by means of altering the frequency rate of matter-antimatter cycle=
 as quoted from the book below:</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>"Light or any other radiant energy above or below light frequency, is t=
herefore manifested by undetectable changes in the radius of the spiral moti=
on of the electron during the antimatter cycle. If this hypothesis is correc=
t, movement from one point in space to another, regardless of apparent dista=
nce - in other words, true space travel - is completely feasible.&nbsp; Pg 1=
2, The Energy Grid Bruce L. Cathie, Adventures Unlimited Press, 1990 </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>If the frequency of pulse manifestation is altered even fractionally ou=
r awareness of reality in the physical sense will shift from one spatial poi=
nt to another. In fact, we would travel from one point in space to another w=
ithout being aware that we had traversed distance in the physical sense. Pg=20=
12, The Energy Grid Bruce L. Cathie, Adventures Unlimited Press, 1990 </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>By manipulating the frequency rate of the matter-antimatter cycle, the=20=
time and speed of light can be varied in direct proportion to any desired va=
lue. This I believe is the method of propulsion used by UFO's, and it is at=20=
the core of the theory upon which I have constructed the global UFO grid sys=
tem. Pg 13, The Energy Grid Bruce L. Cathie, Adventures Unlimited Press, 199=
0 "</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>A NASA article quoted below shows how to levitate objects in a cavity w=
ith microwaves. If we assume that the atmosphere of Earth is a cavity (groun=
d to different layers of atmosphere) or we create an artificial cavity aroun=
d an object or a ship in the air by means of ions, then we should be able to=
 levitate objects in Earth's atmosphere if we can discover the proper electr=
omagnetic resonant mode based on the dimensions of the chamber, the frequenc=
y of the microwave signal, the dielectricity of the object and gas or atmosp=
here around the object, and the limit of microwave heating of the object.</D=
IV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><STRONG>Microwave levitation of small objects, NASA Jet Propulsion Labo=
ratory, Pasadena California, John L. Watkins and Henry W. Jackson of Caltech=
.</STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>"Microwave radiation in resonant cavities would be used to levitate sma=
ll objects, according to a proposal. .... In principle, almost any electrica=
lly polarizable material could be levitated by microwaves.&nbsp; Unlike in m=
agnetic or electrostatic levitation, no feedback control system would be req=
uired to keep the levitated object at a position of stable equilibrium. Unli=
ke in acoustic levitation it would not be necessary to maintain an atmospher=
e of a particular gas at a particular temperature and pressure in the levita=
tion chamber.&nbsp; </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The principle of microwave levitation is reminiscent of that of acousti=
c levitation in that the time-average square of the magnitude of the electri=
c field plays a role analogous to that of the time-averaged square of the ac=
oustic pressure.&nbsp; A small object that has an electric primitivity grate=
r than that of the atmosphere (this is always true if the atmosphere is a va=
cuum) experiences a net time-averaged dielectric force in the direction of i=
ncreasing magnitude of electric field; more specifically the time-averaged f=
orce is proportional to the gradient of the time-averaged square of the elec=
tric field. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Exploiting this principle, the dimensions of the levitation chamber, th=
e frequency of the microwave signal, and the method of coupling the signal i=
nto the cavity would be chosen to excite a resonant electromagnetic mode or=20=
modes in which there would be at least on position away from the walls, from=
 which the magnitude of the electric field would decrease in all directions.=
 Such a position can be found by analysis of the electromagnetic modes of th=
e chamber. Quoted from Microwave levitation of small objects, NASA Jet Propu=
lsion Laboratory, Pasadena California, John L. Watkins and Henry W. Jackson=20=
of Caltech.&nbsp; "</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><STRONG>"Gravitational Propulsion via Mobius Electromagnetics&nbsp; by=20=
Don Reed</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>This new propulsion principle is based upon a heretofore unsuspected fe=
ature of electromagnetic energy which will allow a resonant spherically pola=
rized electromagnetic field to become coupled to gravitation or inertial fie=
lds. This results in a decrease of the intrinsic gravitational potential of=20=
the body with respect to the Earth by negation of the weight of the mass in=20=
question. Quoted from Pg1</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Shinichi Seike The principles of Ultrarelativity - ...Documented demons=
tration of the loss of weight in an activated coil, publicly before a recent=
 meeting of the Physical Society of Japan.&nbsp; Sieke describes the process=
 of gravitational de-coupling, as due to an introduction of "negative" energ=
y into a physical system by imposition of an electromagnetic field configura=
tion that dynamically mimics the topology of a so-called non-orientable stru=
cture such as a Mobius band or a Klein bottle. Quoted from Pg 1"</DIV>
<DIV><BR><STRONG>The book Electrogravatic systems, Reports on a new propulsi=
on system, Edited by Thomas Valone, Integrity Research Institute, 2001, deta=
ils letters written around 1955,</STRONG> that hint that they were close to=20=
understanding how to build electrogravatic saucers that could travel at Mach=
 3 during those years.&nbsp; "50,000 is a magic figure for the combat saucer=
 - it is the amount of KVA (killovolts per amp?) and this amount of K (abili=
ty of condenser to hold its charge (ceramic))&nbsp; that can be translated i=
nto Mach 3 speeds. Pg 35."</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><BR><STRONG>Other books of interest that I am presently reading:</STRON=
G></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The cosmic matrix piece for a jigsaw puzzle part 2- Leonard G. Cramp<BR=
>Occult Ether Physics Tesla's Hidden Space Propulsion System and the Conspir=
acy to Conceal It&nbsp; By William Lyne<BR>The Law of the Squares Truth Tabl=
e The Secret of Searl Technology by Prof. J.R.R. Searl, M. Inst. Pi.<BR>The=20=
Energy Grid Bruce L. Cathie, Adventures Unlimited Press, 1990<BR>Otc-X1 Sauc=
er Space Craft Model Trademark of OTC enterprises (Otis T. Carr)<BR>The fant=
astic inventions of Nikola Tesla by Nikola Tesla and David H. Childress, 199=
3 by Adventures Unlimited Press<BR>Incredible Technologies of the New World=20=
Order UFO's Tesla Area 51 by Commander X Abelard Productions Inc. , Global C=
ommunications New Brunswick NJ, conspiracyjournal.com<BR>The Lost Journals o=
f Nikola Tesla Harrp-- Chemtrails and the Secret of Alternative 4&nbsp; Tim=20=
Swartz Global Communications conspiracyjournal.com<BR>Nikola Tesla Free Ener=
gy and White Dove Abelard Productions Inc. 1992 Global Communications Conspi=
racyjournal.com</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Baron Von Volsung, <A title=3Dhttp://www.rhfweb.com/baron href=3D"http:=
//www.rhfweb.com/baron">http://www.rhfweb.com/baron</A>, Email: <A title=3Dh=
ttp://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html href=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.=
html">http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html</A><BR>President Thomas D. Clark,=
 Email: <A title=3Dhttp://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html href=3D"http://www.r=
hfweb.com/emailform.html">http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html</A>, <BR>Pers=
onal Web Page: <A title=3Dhttp://www.rhfweb.com/personal href=3D"http://www.=
rhfweb.com/personal">http://www.rhfweb.com/personal</A><BR>New Age Productio=
n's Inc., <A title=3Dhttp://www.rhfweb.com/newage href=3D"http://www.rhfweb.=
com/newage">http://www.rhfweb.com/newage</A><BR>Star Haven Community Service=
s, at <A title=3Dhttp://www.rhfweb.com/sh href=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/sh">=
http://www.rhfweb.com/sh</A><BR>Radiation Health Foundation Trust at <A titl=
e=3Dhttp://www.rhfweb.com/ href=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/">http://www.rhfweb=
.com/</A><BR><BR><B>Making a difference one person at a time<BR>Get informed=
. Inform others</B>.</DIV><BR>&nbsp;</DIV></DIV></DIV></BODY></HTML>

-------------------------------1134692714--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 15 16:46:13 2005
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Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 00:15:45 +0000
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Grimer <f.grimer grimer2.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: "Not only" SCIENCE "but also" COLD FUSION...
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...and I can't get more compliant to the Vortex-L 
charter than that. [The Latin??? - that's culture - 
that doesn't count.  8-)  ]

==============================================
HOW A REDUCTION IN CF CAUSES AN INCREASE IN CF
----------------------------------------------                                              
"quae est ista quae progreditur quasi aurora  
consurgens pulchra ut luna electa ut sol      
terribilis ut acies ordinata"                 
----------------------------------------------

Casimir Force (CF) is proportional to d^(-4) 
where d is the distance between the Casimir
Plates.

But but with two parallel plates the 
Beta-atmosphere pressure is only cut off 
in a single direction.

Imagine a small spherical cavitation bubble
in the Beta-atmosphere. The cavity is contained 
within a box of three orthogonal pairs of 
Casimir Plates (CPs) perpendiculars to the 
X, Y and Z axes, respectively.

Pull the X axis set of CPs apart against 
Beta-atmosphere pressure and the bubble 
expands from a spherical cavity to a 
prolate sphere with one long major axis 
and two short minor axes.

The major axis is perpendicular to the 
X axis CPs and the minor axes perpendicular 
to the Y and Z axes CPs.

The negative energy volume (tensile strain 
energy volume) increases proportional to 
the d^4 Casimir Law.

Next pull the Y axis set of CPs apart against 
Beta-atmosphere pressure and the bubble expands 
from a prolate sphere cavity to an oblate 
sphere with one long major axis and two short 
minor axes.

The major axes are perpendicular to the X and 
Y axis CPs and the minor axis is perpendicular 
to the Z axis.

Once again the negative energy volume (tensile 
strain energy volume) increases proportional 
to the d^4 Casimir Law. The total increase in
negative energy for the combined X and Y 
expansion is d^4 times d^4 = d^8

Last, pull the Z axis set of CPs apart against 
Beta-atmosphere pressure and the bubble expands 
from a oblate sphere cavity to a spherical sphere 
cavity with three equal axes perpendicular to 
the X, Y and Z pairs of CPs.
 
For a third time the negative energy volume 
(tensile strain energy volume) increases 
proportional to the d^4 Casimir Law. 

Thus the final increase in negative energy 
for the combined X, Y and Z expansion from 
a small spherical cavity to a large spherical 
cavity is d^4 times d^4 times d^4 = d^12.

To summarize therefore we can see that the 
one dimensional Casimir Law involves a 4th power, 
the two dimensional Casimir Law involves an 
8th power and the three dimensional Casimir 
Law involves a 12th power.

   ====================================
   et apertis thesauris suis obtulerunt 
      ei munera aurum tus et murram 
   ===================================

Now to prove the above experimentally would be 
humongously difficult since one would have to 
have Beta-atmosphere seals at the edges of the 
plates as they expanded which would make Wankel 
engine seals look like wimps.

Perhaps we have some experimental data which 
would support the existence of such powers; 
anomalous data to help the 2 and 3 dimensional 
Casimir Laws find their proper resting place 
in the scientific pantheon.

Fortunately we do.  8-)

Professor Chaplin of London's South Bank 
University has a web site dedicated to the 
properties of water, a web site which our 
resident guru and Tennessee aristocrat, 
Jones Chamberlain Beene IV, has described 
as "one of the real treasures of the 
internet - for sure - "

On that website is a page dedicated to the 
weird properties of water.

----------------------------------------
http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/strange.html
----------------------------------------

And the first figure on the web page shows 
Chaplin's three power laws of 12, 8 and 4 
relating to the vapour pressures of ice, 
water and steam, a manifestation of the 
one, two and three dimensional Casimir Laws 
in action. His data originates in the 
International Critical tables and one 
couldn't have a better provenance than that.

    =============================
    dico tibi nisi quis renatus 
    fuerit ex aqua et Spiritu non 
    potest introire in regnum Dei 
    =============================


$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$


    So much for the "REDUCTION IN CF".

     What about the "INCREASE IN CF"?

One way of carrying out a quasi 3 dimensional
Casimir expansion is to pull a metal specimen
(such as a mild steel rod) apart in a tensile
strength testing machine. The necking of the 
specimen prior to failure leads to high
triaxial stress in the necked region and the
opening up of internal cavities which are 
shielded from Beta-atmosphere pressure

The negative energy density within these 
cavities is going to go negative in accordance 
with a 12th power law.

Opening up a cavity by factor of one 
hundred will drop the pressure by a 
factor of 100^(12) =
1000,000,,000,000,000,000,000,000.

But even if one only opens up the cavities 
by a factor of 2 there is a drop of 
4000 odd. You don't need much of a 
cavity expansion to get an humongous 
drop in the internal B-atm pressure.

We can now appreciate why the physics is 
so vastly different within Beta-atmosphere 
cavities shielded from external Beta-atm.
pressure.

The one dimensional Casimir Effect is 
quite something - even though it is the 
product of only one dimensional 
thinking. 8-)

But the three dimensional Casimir Effect -
that is something else - that is a entirely 
different order of things - to put it mildly. 

Now consider this except from Jed's LENR web site.

     =============================
     http://lenr-canr.org/News.htm
     -----------------------------
     In the lattice, high 
     temperatures are not required; 
     a mechanism exists that causes 
     fusion at a much greater rate 
     and without neutron radiation 
     and tritium production.
     =============================


At the enormous negative pressures indicated 
by the 3D 12th power Casimir Law, it wouldn't 
be surprising if the atomic chemistry of 
deuterium were quite different, would it!  8-)

>From the research on the failure of concrete 
under high ersatz Beta-atmosphere pressure the 
reason for the success of cold fusion is 
becoming clear.

Conventional hydrogen bombs (hot fusion) are
made by squeezing deuterium/tritium stuff
together. But as our work on concrete showed
the important thing isn't the external pressure 
but the difference in pressure between the 
inside and the outside. 

One can achieve this difference,

either by increasing the external pressure, 
the numerator pressure, with an atomic 
fission bomb (hot fusion), 

or by decreasing the internal pressure, the
denominator pressure, by 3D Casimir Plate 
expansion - (cold fusion)

or by any combination of internal and external 
pressure which gives the required differential 
pressure.

In the light of all this, there is no doubt 
in my mind that F&P achieved the very first 
mini-hydrogen-bomb explosion with their cubic
centimeter of palladium. The CP expansion was
presumably a consequence of the creep 
redistribution of manufacturing stresses.

It could well be that Mizuno came close with
his sintered metal powder disks.

Jed can be confident that his wish for the 
success of cold fusion will come true.

In view of the possible consequences I only 
hope he doesn't live to regret it.  ;-)

Cheers,

Frank Grimer

    ==========================================================
  # Bring the good old bugle, boys! We'll sing another song --
    Sing it with a spirit that will start the world along --
    Sing it as we used to sing it, fifty thousand strong,
    While we were marching through Georgia. #

    [Chorus]

  # "Hurrah! Hurrah! We bring the Jubilee!
    Hurrah! Hurrah! The flag that makes you free!"
    So we sang the chorus from Atlanta to the sea,
    While we were marching through Georgia. #

  # "Sherman's dashing Yankee boys will never reach the coast!"
    So the saucy rebels said, and 'twas a handsome boast,
    Had they not forgot, alas! to reckon with the host,
    While we were marching through Georgia. #

    (repeat chorus)

  # So we made a thoroughfare for Freedom and her train,
    Sixty miles latitude -- three hundred to the main;
    Treason fled before us, for resistance was in vain,
    While we were marching through Georgia. #

    (repeat chorus)
    ===========================================================


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Subject: Re: Not only "SCIENCE""but also" COLD FUSION...
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BlankFrank wrote..
>Jed can be confident that his wish for the=20
success of cold fusion will come true.

>In view of the possible consequences I only=20
hope he doesn't live to regret it.  ;-)


Hi Frank.

Consequences.. Ah!..maybe sooner than we realize. Its not the work in CF =
of which we are presently aware , its the silence out there that is =
disturbing.. as they say in the Mad Magazine.

Where the heck is Gen. Sherman when we need him. Gone with the wind,

Richard


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<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
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<DIV>Frank wrote..</DIV>
<P>&gt;Jed can be confident that his wish for the <BR>success of cold =
fusion=20
will come true.<BR><BR>&gt;In view of the possible consequences I only =
<BR>hope=20
he doesn't live to regret it.&nbsp; ;-)<BR></P>
<P>Hi Frank.</P>
<P>Consequences.. Ah!..maybe sooner than we realize. Its not the work in =
CF of=20
which we are presently aware , its the silence out there that is =
disturbing.. as=20
they say in the Mad Magazine.</P>
<P>Where the heck is Gen. Sherman when we need him. Gone with the =
wind,</P>
<P>Richard<BR></P></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 15 18:16:55 2005
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You have a magnificent obsession, Mr. Grimer.  And your analogy has the 
ring of truth.  I imagine the movement of the electron between quantum 
levels causing "sound" waves in the Beta Atmosphere . . . expressed as 
light.

The quote below reminds me of the Bard of Avon.

"But, soft! what light through yonder window breaks?
It is the east, and Juliet is the sun.
Arise, fair sun, and kill the envious moon,
Who is already sick and pale with grief,"

Ironically, the sun is cold fusion and the moon is hot fusion and 
Juliet is the Truth.  Then again, your ideas *do* imply we are looking 
at things the wrong way.

Pity Shakespeare didn't write in Latin, huh?

-----Original Message-----
From: Grimer

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 15 19:28:43 2005
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Cool paper!  Do you know if the effect is as reproducible as it sounds?  
The paper makes it sounds like he just throws the switch, and the D2 
with Pd reactor performs on demand.   In that way, it sounds almost like 
Patterson's bead cells, but without the "black magic" required to make 
the special beads.

I was puzzled by the refs to Japan's experiments in this area in 1933.  
What was that all about, do you know?

I also seem to recall an Italian researcher started to pursue this 
general area  (gas phase D2 with finely divided Pd, in a "passive" 
cell)  way, way back when but then dropped it in favor of PF-cell 
experiments, because funding was only available for the latter at that 
time.  Or have I, as so often happens, remembered that wrong?  (Or is 
the Italian gas-phase work written up on the intro page on 
LENR-CANR....?)  IIRC those initial results seemed pretty promising.


Jed Rothwell wrote:

> At ICCF-12, Arata described a gas-loaded version of his double 
> structured cathode. His lecture slides and some text are available here:
>
> http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/ArataYdevelopmenb.pdf
>
> It may be a little unclear from this text, but this implementation of 
> the double structured cathode appears to be much more practical than 
> the liquid electrolyte version, and it produces high power density. 
> The device he described at ICCF-12 have about 1 cc of palladium black. 
> He is now having a corporation fabricate any new, larger version which 
> will have about 100 cc of palladium black. It should be ready in a few 
> months.
>
> - Jed
>
>
>

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Stephen A. Lawrence wrote:

> Assuming you live in the Northland, where the humidity drops into one's 
> shoes time time of year....)

> Hang a paper snowflake from the ceiling, using tape and a thread. (Or, 
> better yet, hang up several.)

> Blow up a latex balloon (the old-fashioned rubbery kind, not a Mylar 
> one). Then, either using a reasonably clean head of hair or a natural 
> fiber sweater, charge up the balloon.

For no other reason than to be punctilious, those metallized balloons
aren't Mylar, they're Nylon.

> Bring it near the snowflake. The flake is strongly attracted, of 
> course. Typically one point heads straight for the balloon (or, anyway, 
> that's what I was seeing this evening).

> Let the snowflake touch the balloon with one point. Let it stick 
> there. Hold the balloon still.

> A few seconds later the flake pops off the balloon, and is repelled. 
> Chase it around a bit with the balloon, and notice that, repelled or 
> not, it continues to aim the same point at the balloon -- it rotates to 
> keep the same orientation relative to the balloon.

> Now, most of this behavior is obvious, though fun, but there were a 
> couple questions I had some trouble answering.

I can't believe Bill hasn't bitten into this. He must be out of town.
Since he's not answering, I'll have a stab at it.

> 1) The flake picks up a charge from the balloon ... obviously ... and 
> then is repelled. But why doesn't it happen _right_ _away_? What's 
> going on during the delay? The flake pops off all at once when it 
> finally leaves, and seems strongly repelled afterwards -- why doesn't it 
> come loose when it's just about neutral relative to the balloon? (The 
> flakes were cut from plain-paper copier paper, by the way. Sizes varied 
> from about 1.5" to perhaps 4".)

Paper is a high resistance conductor at the voltages you've generated,
probably in the 10kV to 30kV range.  As a consequence, it takes a while
for the charge to spread over the whole surface of the paper.

> 2) Last I heard, dry paper was a pretty bad conductor. The charge 
> draining off the balloon must be going into the point of the flake which 
> is touching the balloon. One would expect that point to end up with the 
> largest charge; then, the flake would spin around and turn the other 
> way. But that doesn't happen. Once the flake stops being attracted to 
> the balloon, the point which was _touching_ the balloon is the one which 
> remains pointing toward the balloon, even as the flake as a whole 
> skitters away. How come?

That' just it.  Paper is a bad conductor.  As the charge slowly accumulates in
the mass of the paper, the highest voltage exists at the point farthest away
from contact with the balloon. When enough total charges exist on the paper
to make it lose contact with the balloon, this voltage gradient remains and
the orientation of the paper to the balloon remains.

> If you happen to be an LP afficionado, you can try this, too:

> Stick a balloon or two or three to the ceiling with static.

> Zap them with a Zerostat.

> They go right on sticking -- they don't come loose! Why not? Why is 
> the Zerostat so bad at bleeding charge off a balloon? It used to work 
> like gangbusters getting dust off my LPs. This one appears to still 
> work; I can still feel the breeze from the nozzle when I work the 
> trigger. The room was starting to smell like ozone by the time I gave 
> up trying to shoot down a balloon from the ceiling with it.

The Zerostat is bleeding the charge from the balloon, just not at the
point where it's attached to the (conductive) ceiling.  The reason for this
is that when you charged the balloon it had a pretty high voltage.  When
you stuck it to the ceiling, the voltage near the point of contact dropped
to a level where it is not easily conducted away through the air.

When you bring a charged object into close proximity to a grounded 
conductor the coulomb-volts remain constant, but as the coulombs
rise, the voltage drops.  IOW, if you remove the balloon from the ceiling
and zap it with the Zerostat, it will no longer be attracted to the ceiling.

> ************************

> If you're really bored and are sick of discussing religion on Vortex, or 
> you need to entertain someone young, you can also put a well-charged 
> balloon or two on a tabletop and bring another charged balloon near 
> them. No surprises there but it's fun none the less...

Oh, I don't have to be bored to play around with frictionally generated
charges.  I mess around with this stuff constantly and compulsively.
I find it far more amusing than a grown man should.

My best party tricks are generating 15 inch sparks with nothing but a
glass top table and a piece of wax paper, or making a full 2 liter pop 
bottle roll back and forth across a level surface with the charge on a 
PVC pipe.  Just in case you haven't already seen it, my more or less 
abandoned and pathetically underdeveloped web page can be seen at:

http://www.pcpages.com/chv1

Here you can see a nice big spark generated for low cost.

M.


	
   

_______________________________________________
Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
The most personalized portal on the Web!


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 15 21:08:02 2005
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From: Grimer <f.grimer grimer2.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: "Not only" SCIENCE "but also" COLD FUSION...
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At 09:16 pm 15/12/2005 -0500, Hohlraum wrote:

> You have a magnificent obsession, Mr. Grimer.  
> And your analogy has the ring of truth.  
> I imagine the movement of the electron between 
> quantum levels causing "sound" waves in the 
> Beta-atmosphere . . . expressed as light.
>
> The quote below reminds me of the Bard of Avon.
>
> "But, soft! what light through yonder window breaks?
>   It is the east, and Juliet is the sun.
>  Arise, fair sun, and kill the envious moon,
>   Who is already sick and pale with grief,"
>
> Ironically, the sun is cold fusion and the moon is 
> hot fusion and Juliet is the Truth.  
> Then again, your ideas *do* imply we are looking 
> at things the wrong way.
>
> Pity Shakespeare didn't write in Latin, huh?


Thereby hangs a tale,  Err...well, a Literary Anecdote   ;-)

After the christening of one of Ben Jonson's children, 
the proud father - noticing Shakespeare (the child's 
godfather) engrossed in thought - asked him what was wrong. 

Shakespeare replied that, having long wondered what to 
offer as a christening present, he had just now decided: 
"I'll give him a dozen good latten spoons," he declared, 
"and thou shalt translate them."

During the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, latten 
(a yellow metal similar to brass) was commonly used in 
the manufacture of household implements; the pun also 
plays upon the alchemists' endeavors to "translate" base 
metals into yellow gold. Though likely apocryphal, this 
story neatly illustrates the perceived difference between 
the learned Ben and the "un-Latined" Shakespeare and is 
not inappropriate for current efforts to "translate"
water into black gold.

    ============================================
    Hohlraum - A metal container that holds a 
    ICF capsule. By selecting a high-atomic-
    weight metal like lead, gold, or tantalum, 
    radiation energy has difficulty penetrating 
    into the metal, and instead primarily heats 
    the inside surface of the hohlraum. This 
    in turn heats the outside surface of the 
    capsule, which sees the hot hohlraum walls.
    ===========================================

Frank


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Fred wrote:

> Michael Foster asks: 
>> 
> 
>> Could some CF be going on in these crystals unnoticed?  In
>> other words, if you measure the optical energy of the laser
>> wavelength going in, the unconverted laser energy, the 
>> energy of the doubled wavelength, and the waste heat given
>> off do you arrive at over unity?
>>
> To answer a question with a question, wouldn't it be simpler
> to do calorimetry on a small fluorescent UV lamp in a aluminum
> hole "cavity" immersed in D2O? 
 
> IOW, why bother with single frequencies, when the uv lamp
> output runs from micron infrared to 180 nm uv?

Well, yes, it would be simpler.  I was just wondering if CF was
going on in those deuterated frequency doubling crystals
unobserved.

I suppose I'll have to go back and read your original posts on this
subject, but if your idea depends on stimulated Brillouin scattering,
there would be a problem of reaching a threshhould, as SBS
doesn't happen at low power densities.  A high power argon-
mercury arc with a quartz envelope might do the trick.  Most of those
low power "fluorescent" lights have an ordinary glass tube, thus
suppressing all of the short UV.  Have I missed your whole concept
here?

M.
 





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Pluging the patent number into "Search Term 1" brings

up the patents that reference that number.

http://patft.uspto.gov/netahtml/search-bool.html

3,049,690      (1962)  10 references

3,136,593      (1964)   4 references

3,170,270       (1965)  1 references

3,751,869       (1973)   4  references

3,782,352       (1974)    5 references

3,801,446       (1974)    6 references

3,943,889        (1976)    13  references

OTOH any before 1976 require the TIFF  Reader.

http://patft.uspto.gov/netahtml/srchnum.htm
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<HTML><HEAD>
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2802" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Pluging the patent number into "Search Term 1" brings</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>up the patents that reference that number.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2><A href="http://patft.uspto.gov/netahtml/search-bool.html">http://patft.uspto.gov/netahtml/search-bool.html</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>3,049,690&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (1962)&nbsp; 10 references</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>3,136,593&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (1964)&nbsp;&nbsp; 4 references</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>3,170,270&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (1965)&nbsp; 1 references</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>3,751,869&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;(1973)&nbsp;&nbsp; 4&nbsp; references</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>3,782,352&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (1974)&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 5 references</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>3,801,446&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (1974)&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 6 references</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>3,943,889&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;(1976)&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 13&nbsp; references</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>OTOH any before 1976 require the TIFF&nbsp; Reader.</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2><A href="http://patft.uspto.gov/netahtml/srchnum.htm">http://patft.uspto.gov/netahtml/srchnum.htm</A></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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Michael Foster wrote:
> 
> I suppose I'll have to go back and read your original posts on this
> subject, but if your idea depends on stimulated Brillouin scattering,
> there would be a problem of reaching a threshold, as SBS
> doesn't happen at low power densities.  A high power argon-
> mercury arc with a quartz envelope might do the trick.  Most of those
> low power "fluorescent" lights have an ordinary glass tube, thus
>.suppressing all of the short UV. 
>
I used the word "fluorescent" loosely in referring to the 4 watt clear quartz UV lamps used
for EPROM erasers.
I suggested using a GE A-H6 1,000 watt high pressure quartz Hg lamp
that puts out 31 watts of UV below 280 nanometers. 840 volts at 1.4 amps into a volume
about 0.3 centimeters diameter x 8 centimeters length. (about 0.6 cm^3 giving about 1.6 kilowatts/cm^3)
If nothing else the film boiling of high purity H2O or D2O around the bulb surface should mimic 
acoustic- induced cavitation bubble collapse,especially if the bulb is in a cylindrical cavity.
> 
> Have I missed your whole concept here?
> 
Nope, just a follow-up post.  :-)

Fred
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<HTML><HEAD>
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2802" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Michael Foster wrote:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>&gt; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&gt; I suppose I'll have to go back and read your original posts on this<BR>&gt; subject, but if your idea depends on stimulated Brillouin scattering,<BR>&gt; there would be a problem of reaching a threshold, as SBS<BR>&gt; doesn't happen at low power densities.&nbsp; A high power argon-<BR>&gt; mercury arc with a quartz envelope might do the trick.&nbsp; Most of those<BR>&gt; low power "fluorescent" lights have an ordinary glass tube, thus<BR>&gt;.suppressing all of the short UV.&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&gt;</DIV>
<DIV>I used the word "fluorescent" loosely in referring to the 4 watt clear quartz UV lamps used</DIV>
<DIV>for EPROM erasers.</DIV>
<DIV>I suggested using a GE A-H6 1,000 watt&nbsp;high pressure quartz Hg lamp</DIV>
<DIV>that puts out 31 watts of UV below 280 nanometers. 840 volts at 1.4 amps into a volume</DIV>
<DIV>about 0.3 centimeters diameter x 8 centimeters length. (about 0.6 cm^3 giving about 1.6 kilowatts/cm^3)</DIV>
<DIV>If nothing else the film boiling of high purity H2O or D2O around the bulb surface should mimic </DIV>
<DIV>acoustic- induced cavitation bubble collapse,especially if the bulb is in a cylindrical cavity.</DIV>
<DIV>&gt; </DIV>
<DIV>&gt; Have I missed your whole concept here?</DIV>
<DIV>&gt; </DIV>
<DIV>Nope, just a follow-up post.&nbsp; :-)</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Fred</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 16 06:43:27 2005
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Subject: Re: "Not only" SCIENCE "but also" COLD FUSION...
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Frank..
Shades of my sainted grandmother, Blanche Louise Townley, who had the gift. 
Like I was sitting at her knee and listening to speech long gone. Never , 
ever  attempt to beard an Englishman using his language. One will wind up 
dangling more than participles.
I have spent some thoughtful time in thinking of  " your magnificent 
obsession" dealing with B*a and the internal pressure of  concrete.
Sad that the Glen Canyon cavitation incident was left to explain itself.
Richard
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Grimer" <f.grimer grimer2.freeserve.co.uk>
To: <vortex-L eskimo.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2005 11:07 PM
Subject: Re: "Not only" SCIENCE "but also" COLD FUSION...


> At 09:16 pm 15/12/2005 -0500, Hohlraum wrote:
>
>> You have a magnificent obsession, Mr. Grimer.
>> And your analogy has the ring of truth.
>> I imagine the movement of the electron between
>> quantum levels causing "sound" waves in the
>> Beta-atmosphere . . . expressed as light.
>>
>> The quote below reminds me of the Bard of Avon.
>>
>> "But, soft! what light through yonder window breaks?
>>   It is the east, and Juliet is the sun.
>>  Arise, fair sun, and kill the envious moon,
>>   Who is already sick and pale with grief,"
>>
>> Ironically, the sun is cold fusion and the moon is
>> hot fusion and Juliet is the Truth.
>> Then again, your ideas *do* imply we are looking
>> at things the wrong way.
>>
>> Pity Shakespeare didn't write in Latin, huh?
>
>
> Thereby hangs a tale,  Err...well, a Literary Anecdote   ;-)
>
> After the christening of one of Ben Jonson's children,
> the proud father - noticing Shakespeare (the child's
> godfather) engrossed in thought - asked him what was wrong.
>
> Shakespeare replied that, having long wondered what to
> offer as a christening present, he had just now decided:
> "I'll give him a dozen good latten spoons," he declared,
> "and thou shalt translate them."
>
> During the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, latten
> (a yellow metal similar to brass) was commonly used in
> the manufacture of household implements; the pun also
> plays upon the alchemists' endeavors to "translate" base
> metals into yellow gold. Though likely apocryphal, this
> story neatly illustrates the perceived difference between
> the learned Ben and the "un-Latined" Shakespeare and is
> not inappropriate for current efforts to "translate"
> water into black gold.
>
>    ============================================
>    Hohlraum - A metal container that holds a
>    ICF capsule. By selecting a high-atomic-
>    weight metal like lead, gold, or tantalum,
>    radiation energy has difficulty penetrating
>    into the metal, and instead primarily heats
>    the inside surface of the hohlraum. This
>    in turn heats the outside surface of the
>    capsule, which sees the hot hohlraum walls.
>    ===========================================
>
> Frank
>
> 


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From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk
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Vo, Jed,
Wikipedia is a model of free speech (not free screech) and democracy but I
guess what we really mean by free speech is *informed* free speech and what
we really mean by democracy is an educated populous (adult, not a-dolt), non
salacious media (not power without responsibility) and trustworthy leaders.

Yes, it is a good idea to consult leaders in the field before anything is
placed on the site. Inaccurate writing should be viewed as defamation and
clamping down on that is not censorship or crying foul when one doesn't get
one's way but human decency.

Incidentally you posted Schwinger's paper a few months ago with an early
insight into CF and it was very interesting to see how a rational mind goes
about tackling a difficult problem and putting delimiters on it. It should
be more known.
Regards,
Remi.

Re: Correa attacks Wikipedia
Jed Rothwell
Thu, 15 Dec 2005 15:49:53 -0800

Harry Veeder wrote:

Of course these are early days, and competitors to wikipedia may emerge as
it did with browsers.

I expect the people at Wikipedia will welcome this. They would probably
agree that their model does not work for all subjects. We need a variety of
different online encyclopedias, some of them completely open to the public
-- that anyone can change -- and others more restricted. The "one size fits
all" model is inadequate. We also need sites such as LENR-CANR.org where
authors publish papers and represent their own points of view and no one
else's. 

Wikipedia itself may become more sophisticated and it may implement
different levels for different kinds of articles. As I said in the
discussion section for the cold fusion article, if they want experts to
write, they will have to promise those experts that their work will not be
trashed. The work might be changed, but the expert author will be consulted,
and if he objects his objections will be reviewed by other experts. 

- Jed

.......................................
Website
http://luna.bton.ac.uk/~roc1
.......................................

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R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk wrote:

>Wikipedia is a model of free speech (not free screech) and democracy but I
>guess what we really mean by free speech is *informed* free speech . . .

Why do you call it a model? In Wikipedia, anything goes. Anyone can 
post any comment, anonymously. This is an invitation to trolling and 
character assassination. The article on cold fusion is full of 
skeptical nonsense and unfounded opinion.

At Amazon.com they used to allow anonymous reviews of books. They 
abolished the practice after they found out the large number of 
glowing reviews were written by the authors or their friends, and 
many attacks were written by literary rivals. They should have 
realized that would happen. See:

http://media.guardian.co.uk/site/story/0,14173,1271358,00.html

I think that a serious online encyclopedia will have to be based on 
some compromise between unfettered unregulated open access and 
Encyclopaedia Britannica style "the experts know best" authoritarianism.


>Incidentally you posted Schwinger's paper a few months ago with an early
>insight into CF . . .

Do you mean the ICCF1 paper? I uploaded it to:

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/SchwingerJnuclearene.pdf

- Jed


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Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 16:15:42 +0000
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From: Grimer <f.grimer grimer2.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: "Not only" SCIENCE "but also" COLD FUSION...
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At 08:42 am 16/12/2005 -0600, Richard wrote:

> Frank...

> I have spent some thoughtful time in thinking 
> of "your magnificent obsession" dealing with B*a 
> and the internal pressure of concrete. Sad that 
> the Glen Canyon cavitation incident was left to 
> explain itself.


The interesting thing about Glen Canyon is that the 
engineers didn't bother with the physics. They just 
thought up an ingenious way to fix the problem

=========================================================
Contractors blast away damaged concrete, fix tunnel 
linings and fill holes with 3,000 cubic yards of concrete. 
Engineers, meanwhile, begin their own race to retrofit 
the dam with aeration slots, a new technology that 
introduces small amounts of air into rushing water, 
cushioning the blow of imploding vapor cavities. 
The plan works. The '84 runoff sets more records, 
but the spillways show no sign of cavitation. 

This success leads the Bureau of Reclamation to 
retrofit aerators to two other large dams, Hoover 
and Blue Mesa. "It was a defining moment in dam 
design," says Burgi. "The world was watching how 
we were going to solve this problem." As it turns 
out, the world did more than watch -- aeration 
slots are now standard from the Tarbela Dam in 
Pakistan to the Infiernillo Dam in Mexico.
========================================================= 

In effect, they fed the Beta-atmosphere with 
Alpha-atmosphere cracks thereby virtually 
annihilating the water's tensile strength.

It is difficult for engineers to appreciate that
it is not the external stress on a material that
leads to failure but the difference between the 
external and the internal stress. 

It is even more difficult for physicists and 
chemists to understand that....

-----------------------------------------------
        ..... as our work on concrete showed
the important thing isn't the external pressure 
but the difference in pressure between the 
inside and the outside. 

One can achieve this difference,

either by increasing the external pressure, 
the numerator pressure, with an atomic 
fission bomb (hot fusion), 

or by decreasing the internal pressure, the
denominator pressure, by 3D Casimir Plate 
expansion - (cold fusion)
-----------------------------------------------

...but they will - eventually - when they 
realise they have things inside out.   8-)

Frank



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 16 08:33:32 2005
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From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk
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Jed,
Yes you are correct, always a fine balance between justice and progress and
the forces of anarchy. Yes that was the paper I read. I believe it is stuff
of that quality that is going to attract young research fellows to the
subject.

I'm sorry if my responses get a little patchy from now on as it is the end
of the year and technically the university is meant to be closing. I just
want to put my feet up for a bit anyway.
Regards,
Remi.

-----Original Message-----
From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On
Behalf Of Jed Rothwell
Sent: 16 December 2005 15:24
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Correa attacks Wikipedia

R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk wrote:

>Wikipedia is a model of free speech (not free screech) and democracy but I
>guess what we really mean by free speech is *informed* free speech . . .

Why do you call it a model? In Wikipedia, anything goes. Anyone can 
post any comment, anonymously. This is an invitation to trolling and 
character assassination. The article on cold fusion is full of 
skeptical nonsense and unfounded opinion.

At Amazon.com they used to allow anonymous reviews of books. They 
abolished the practice after they found out the large number of 
glowing reviews were written by the authors or their friends, and 
many attacks were written by literary rivals. They should have 
realized that would happen. See:

http://media.guardian.co.uk/site/story/0,14173,1271358,00.html

I think that a serious online encyclopedia will have to be based on 
some compromise between unfettered unregulated open access and 
Encyclopaedia Britannica style "the experts know best" authoritarianism.


>Incidentally you posted Schwinger's paper a few months ago with an early
>insight into CF . . .

Do you mean the ICCF1 paper? I uploaded it to:

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/SchwingerJnuclearene.pdf

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 16 09:03:27 2005
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To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: "Fire from Water" DVD is available
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The video published by Infinite Energy, "Cold Fusion: Fire from 
Water" is now available on DVD. I found it on Netflix. (I am tempted 
to give it a five-star review but I am a co-author so I shouldn't.) 
It is published by a weird company here:

http://www.ufotv.com

I am not thrilled to see the DVD associated with this company, but I 
am glad it is available on DVD. People should see this, because it 
includes serious interviews with several leading cold fusion 
researchers, and some rare glimpses of the experiments.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 16 09:28:04 2005
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Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 10:27:33 -0700
From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
Organization: Energy K. Systems
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If it is true that a person is known by the friends he keeps, we in cold 
fusion are in really great company on this website. There a person can 
find information about most of the greatest, but rejected discoveries 
ever made by man.  These are discoveries so profound that most people 
simply can not accept their reality.  This fact alone gives cold fusion 
status even though it denies us temporary support.  But, as always has 
been true, reality eventually wins over stubborn skepticism.  Only 
patience and a long life are required.

Regards,
Ed

Jed Rothwell wrote:

> The video published by Infinite Energy, "Cold Fusion: Fire from Water" 
> is now available on DVD. I found it on Netflix. (I am tempted to give it 
> a five-star review but I am a co-author so I shouldn't.) It is published 
> by a weird company here:
> 
> http://www.ufotv.com
> 
> I am not thrilled to see the DVD associated with this company, but I am 
> glad it is available on DVD. People should see this, because it includes 
> serious interviews with several leading cold fusion researchers, and 
> some rare glimpses of the experiments.
> 
> - Jed
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 16 09:51:21 2005
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http://www.impactlab.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=6827

"The energy industry has found a new way to dispose of the greenhouse 
gas carbon dioxide: pump it back into the underground oil reservoirs 
from whence much of it came."

"Not only does the project dispose of the nasty CO2, the pressure from 
the gas helps to extract more oil. "
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 16 10:09:18 2005
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Yep.
There is a CO2 pipeline running from CO2 wells in northeastern
New Mexico to the Permian Basin oil wells in southeastern
NM and west Texas for enhanced oil extraction that has been in use for
twenty years or so.

Fred

hohlraum wrote,
>
> http://www.impactlab.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=6827
>
> "The energy industry has found a new way to dispose of the greenhouse 
> gas carbon dioxide: pump it back into the underground oil reservoirs 
> from whence much of it came."
>
> "Not only does the project dispose of the nasty CO2, the pressure from 
> the gas helps to extract more oil. "
> ___________________________________________________
> Try the New Netscape Mail Today!
> Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List
> http://mail.netscape.com



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 16 10:45:24 2005
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I guess the axiom of "any publicity is good pubicity" applies in this 
Hustler interview of Dr. Steven Greer:

http://www.disclosureproject.org/bassiorinterview.htm
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hohlrauml6d netscape.net wrote:

>I guess the axiom of "any publicity is good pubicity" applies in 
>this Hustler interview of Dr. Steven Greer:

Ed Storms does not mind cold fusion being associated with ufotv.com, 
but he would probably draw the line at this!

- Jed


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Fred wrote:

> Things might get really interesting if Pd wires are
> exploded in a 200-400 atmosphere pressure D2 gas.

Sounds like a really low cost (ahem) thermo-
nuclear device. Or would you need to add a
dash of tritium?

M.

 

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Well Jed, that is an interesting idea. The questions is, would an 
interview published in Hustler Magazine benefit cold fusion or would it 
causes more people to reject the idea?  First of all, I doubt that 
anyone who was initially sympathetic to cold fusion would change their 
mind because an article appeared in Hustler any more than they would 
change their mind because Scientific American made a negative comment. 
Most people have no idea whether the effect is real or not and their 
opinions simply do not matter. A few prudes might get bent out of shape, 
but who cares.  On the other hand, a significant number of men read 
Hustler, some of whom hold positions of power and influence. If such an 
article were to cause a few of such people to become aware of the claims 
for the first time, this would be a good thing.  On the whole, I think 
such an article would do more good than harm.

Regards,
Ed

Jed Rothwell wrote:

> hohlrauml6d netscape.net wrote:
> 
>> I guess the axiom of "any publicity is good pubicity" applies in this 
>> Hustler interview of Dr. Steven Greer:
> 
> 
> Ed Storms does not mind cold fusion being associated with ufotv.com, but 
> he would probably draw the line at this!
> 
> - Jed
> 
> 
> 

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------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8
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Pipe Problem Tied to Naked Man in Basement
>From Associated Press
December 15, 2005 6:03 PM EST 
SPOKANE, Wash. - A plumbing problem at a Spokane home turned out to be a naked man. Police say a woman who thought she was having a problem with water pipes beneath the floor called the Water Department. Employees found the basement barricaded, and when they determined there was someone behind the door, they called police.
Police broke through the door, found the naked man and took him into custody. They searched the basement but found no clothing for the man. They also found that a pipe had been broken and repaired.
The 36-year-old was booked into jail for investigation of burglary.
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8
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<HTML><HEAD>
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2802" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>
<DIV class=newsTitle>Pipe Problem Tied to Naked Man in Basement</DIV>
<DIV class=newsPubDate style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px">
<DIV class=newsAuthor></DIV>
<DIV class=newsProvider>From Associated Press</DIV>December 15, 2005 6:03 PM EST </DIV>
<DIV class=newsBreakingHeadline>
<P>SPOKANE, Wash. - A plumbing problem at a Spokane home turned out to be a naked man. Police say a woman who thought she was having a problem with water pipes beneath the floor called the Water Department. Employees found the basement barricaded, and when they determined there was someone behind the door, they called police.</P>
<P>Police broke through the door, found the naked man and took him into custody. They searched the basement but found no clothing for the man. They also found that a pipe had been broken and repaired.</P>
<P>The 36-year-old was booked into jail for investigation of burglary.</P></DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8--


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> [Original Message]
> From: What's New <whatsnew BOBPARK.ORG>
 To: <BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW LISTSERV.UMD.EDU>
 Date: 12/16/2005 7:46:51 PM
 Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday December 16, 2005

 WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 16 Dec 05   Washington, DC

 1. SPACE DEVELOPMENT: WILL "SIX FLAGS OVER THE MOON" BE NEXT? 
 The big news this week is that New Mexico is building the first
 commercial spaceport.  British entrepreneur Richard Branson says
 his Virgin Galactic Airline will use the spaceport to launch
 tourists on suborbital flights beginning in 2008.  A $200,000
 ticket will buy you five minutes of weightlessness, with no extra
 charge for space sickness.  With America's once-proud space
 program hard-put to support a crew of only two, wandering lost in
 the cavernous ISS, the future in space seems to be theme parks. 
 According to China Daily, even the newest space-faring power
 wants some of the theme park action.  Guiyang, capital of Guizhou
 Province, said to have been visited by a UFO in 1994, received
 $20M from a Taiwan-based company for a UFO research center.

 2. CLONE SCANDAL: KOREAN SCIENTIST REPORTEDLY ADMITS FABRICATION.
 The goal of treating people with tissues cloned from their own
 stem cells had seemed almost in reach.  In May, Woo Suk Hwang and
 his colleagues reported in Science that they had cloned stem
 cells from 11 patients.  Hwang became an international celebrity
 and a Korean hero.  Then there were reports that women who worked
 in his lab had been pressured to donate eggs for the experiment.
 Last month, an American collaborator asked that his name be taken
> off the paper citing "ethical violations."  Now the work seems to
 be unraveling completely, with Hwang reportedly admitting that
 critical parts of the "discovery" had been fabricated.  

 3. GHOST STORY: WHILE WE'RE ON THE SUBJECT OF SCIENTIFIC ETHICS. 
 On Tuesday, a front-page article in the Wall Street Journal, by
 Staff Reporter Anna Wilde Mathews, dealt with publication of
 ghost-written papers in major medical journals.  The papers bear
 the names of academic researchers, who presumably agree with the
 articles.  The intent, however, is not to disseminate knowledge,
 but to promote the products of the company that paid to have it
 written.  We expel students who turn in ghost-written papers.  WN
 has reported before on unhealthy ties of NIH scientists to drug
 companies, http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN04/wn070904.html . 
 Something like it seems to be going on with academic scientists.

 4. EVOLUTION: THINGS ARE A LITTLE STICKY IN COBB COUNTY, GEORGIA.
 Yesterday, a federal appeals court panel seemed to some observers
 to be critical of the ruling requiring removal of a sticker from
 biology texts http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN05/wn011405.html . 
 It read: "This textbook contains material on evolution. 
 Evolution is a theory, not a fact, regarding the origin of living
 things.  This material should be approached with an open mind,
 studied carefully, and critically considered."  The sticker was
 not factually inaccurate.  The attorney who argued the case
 against the stickers at last years trial remarked admitted that,
 "I'm more worried than I was when I walked in this morning."

 THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND.
 Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the
 University of Maryland, but they should be.
 ---
 Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.bobpark.org
 What's New is moving to a different listserver and our
 subscription process has changed. To change your subscription
 status please visit this link:
 http://listserv.umd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=bobparks-whatsnew&A=1


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 16 13:39:12 2005
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Subject: Re: Correa attacks Wikipedia
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On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk wrote:

> Vo, Jed,
> Wikipedia is a model of free speech (not free screech) and democracy but I
> guess what we really mean by free speech is *informed* free speech and what
> we really mean by democracy is an educated populous (adult, not a-dolt), non
> salacious media (not power without responsibility) and trustworthy leaders.

But Wikipedia is an experiment in *anonymous* free speech, where abusive
people with mild mental problems cannot be blocked, and where all users
can duck responsibility.  It's ike Usenet, or like a call-in radio show
where the callers have no names and they all disguise their voices.  That
type of setup has major consequences (e.g. the difference between
sci.physics.fusion versus vortex-L.)

If Wikipedia started out using the simple email-verified registration
which nearly all WWW forums use to exclude trolls/flamers/spammers, it
would be a very different resource today.




(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb at amasci com                         http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair
Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci

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only gets rid of it for so long though.

On 12/16/05, hohlrauml6d netscape.net <hohlrauml6d@netscape.net> wrote:
>
> http://www.impactlab.com/modules.php?name=3DNews&file=3Darticle&sid=3D682=
7
>
> "The energy industry has found a new way to dispose of the greenhouse
> gas carbon dioxide: pump it back into the underground oil reservoirs
> from whence much of it came."
>
> "Not only does the project dispose of the nasty CO2, the pressure from
> the gas helps to extract more oil. "
> ___________________________________________________
> Try the New Netscape Mail Today!
> Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List
> http://mail.netscape.com
>
>


--
"Monsieur l'abb=E9, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to ma=
ke
it possible for you to continue to write"  Voltaire

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only gets rid of it for so long though.<br><br>
<div><span class=3D"gmail_quote">On 12/16/05, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername"=
><a href=3D"mailto:hohlrauml6d netscape.net">hohlrauml6d@netscape.net</a></=
b> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:hohlrauml6d netscape.net">hohlrauml6d@netscape.net=
</a>
&gt; wrote:</span>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid"><a href=3D"http://www.impactlab.=
com/modules.php?name=3DNews&amp;file=3Darticle&amp;sid=3D6827">http://www.i=
mpactlab.com/modules.php?name=3DNews&amp;file=3Darticle&amp;sid=3D6827
</a><br><br>&quot;The energy industry has found a new way to dispose of the=
 greenhouse<br>gas carbon dioxide: pump it back into the underground oil re=
servoirs<br>from whence much of it came.&quot;<br><br>&quot;Not only does t=
he project dispose of the nasty CO2, the pressure from
<br>the gas helps to extract more oil. &quot;<br>__________________________=
_________________________<br>Try the New Netscape Mail Today!<br>Virtually =
Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List<br><a href=3D"http://ma=
il.netscape.com">
http://mail.netscape.com</a><br><br></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all=
"><br>-- <br>&quot;Monsieur l'abb=E9, I detest what you write, but I would =
give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write&quot;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;Voltaire=20

------=_Part_6539_11657919.1134769526847--

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Yep, one hoaxster 'fessed up recently:

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002677060_wiki11.html

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20051211-5739.html

-----Original Message-----
From: William Beaty

But Wikipedia is an experiment in *anonymous* free speech, where abusive
people with mild mental problems cannot be blocked, and where all users
can duck responsibility.
___________________________________________________
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 16 14:41:43 2005
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William Beaty wrote:

>But Wikipedia is an experiment in *anonymous* free speech, where abusive
>people with mild mental problems cannot be blocked . . .

Actually, the editors can block people, and they have done so 
occasionally. I suppose the offenders can simply register a new name.


>If Wikipedia started out using the simple email-verified registration
>which nearly all WWW forums use to exclude trolls/flamers/spammers, it
>would be a very different resource today.

Well, they might change to that model. They seem like smart people, 
who are willing to try new things. After the recent scandal they 
reduced the editing capabilities of anonymous contributors. I think 
they said that anonymous contributors can no longer initiate articles 
or sections.

Against my better judgment, I added some stuff to the cold fusion 
article today, including three links to introductions to the subject 
in different languages. Some anonymous person promptly chopped them 
out. I wrote to him/her/it:

"Dear Anonymous Person: Why were these [links] moved? Did you move 
them to the other versions of Wikipedia? Is there there some kind of 
policy at Wikipedia banning non-English articles?

If there is such a policy, kindly point it out to me. If not, let us 
put the links back. Also, I would appreciate it if you would sign 
your work in future. . . ."

- Jed


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Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 17:33:36 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Productive Sequestering
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leaking pen wrote:

>only gets rid of it for so long though.

Why? Does it gradually leak out of the underground reservoir?

- Jed


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Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 15:46:03 -0700
From: leaking pen <itsatrap gmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Productive Sequestering
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lesse...  gas,  stone.  you tell me?  its going to end up in any water
source that runs through it, bubling out, bubbling through the small holes
in the rock, and eventually be released enmasse as holes open up due to
geological activity.

On 12/16/05, Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> leaking pen wrote:
>
> >only gets rid of it for so long though.
>
> Why? Does it gradually leak out of the underground reservoir?
>
> - Jed
>
>
>


--
"Monsieur l'abb=E9, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to ma=
ke
it possible for you to continue to write"  Voltaire

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lesse...&nbsp; gas,&nbsp; stone.&nbsp; you tell me?&nbsp; its going to end =
up in any water source that runs through it, bubling out, bubbling through =
the small holes in the rock, and eventually be released enmasse as holes op=
en up due to geological activity.&nbsp;=20
<br><br>
<div><span class=3D"gmail_quote">On 12/16/05, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername"=
>Jed Rothwell</b> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:JedRothwell mindspring.com">JedRoth=
well mindspring.com</a>&gt; wrote:</span>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">leaking pen wrote:<br><br>&gt;on=
ly gets rid of it for so long though.<br><br>Why? Does it gradually leak ou=
t of the underground reservoir?
<br><br>- Jed<br><br><br></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <b=
r>&quot;Monsieur l'abb=E9, I detest what you write, but I would give my lif=
e to make it possible for you to continue to write&quot;&nbsp;&nbsp;Voltair=
e=20

------=_Part_6907_15788700.1134773163380--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 16 14:50:12 2005
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To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Arata's gas-loaded double-structured cathode
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Stephen A. Lawrence wrote:

>Cool paper!  Do you know if the effect is as reproducible as it sounds?

How would I know? It has not been independently replicated. For now 
we will have to take Arata's word for it. His co-author Zhang has 
retired, and she is presently visiting her son, but she will rejoin 
Arata in a few months, about the time the new cell arrives. Maybe she 
will be able to write more about it.


>The paper makes it sounds like he just throws the switch, and the D2 
>with Pd reactor performs on demand.

That is my impression, too.


>I was puzzled by the refs to Japan's experiments in this area in 1933.
>What was that all about, do you know?

No idea. Arata's writing tends to be opaque -- even in Japanese.

- Jed


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Subject: Re: Correa attacks Wikipedia
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Bill B's got a good point. This is one of the aspects which makes Vortex 
such a valuable group.
Most people are willing to identify themselves and stand behind their words.

Steve

At 02:09 PM 12/16/2005, you wrote:
>Yep, one hoaxster 'fessed up recently:
>
>http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002677060_wiki11.html
>
>http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20051211-5739.html
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: William Beaty
>
>But Wikipedia is an experiment in *anonymous* free speech, where abusive
>people with mild mental problems cannot be blocked, and where all users
>can duck responsibility.
>___________________________________________________
>Try the New Netscape Mail Today!
>Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List
>http://mail.netscape.com

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leaking pen wrote:

>lesse...  gas,  stone.  you tell me?

If we are talking about oil wells, then they typically also hold 
natural gas which has been trapped for millions of years. The salt 
dome or whatever it is that traps the liquid and gas is punctured by 
the drill, and when they are under great pressure they come spurting 
out. But that seldom happens, and most of the gas remains 
underground. They seal the well when they are finished. I suppose the 
CO2 would  stay down there for millions of years.

Now if you were to pump CO2 under some randomly chosen spot in the 
ground, I suppose it would quickly percolate out. Also, I suppose a 
lot of it comes out mixed with the natural gas and oil. Nowadays they 
force oil out by pumping water into wells, and it takes a lot of 
energy to separate the water from the oil.

- Jed


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Others believe the Logos should be self-sustaining.  Or as Mr. Grimer 
iterated

*In principio erat Verbum et Verbum erat apud Deum et Deus erat Verbum*

(bringing us back off topic  ;-)

-----Original Message-----
From: Steven Krivit

Bill B's got a good point. This is one of the aspects which makes 
Vortex such a valuable group. 
Most people are willing to identify themselves and stand behind their 
words. 
___________________________________________________
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Subject: Re: Correa attacks Wikipedia
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--- William Beaty <billb eskimo.com> wrote:

> 
> If Wikipedia started out using the simple
> email-verified registration
> which nearly all WWW forums use to exclude
> trolls/flamers/spammers, it
> would be a very different resource today.
> 

There are two anonymizing utilities, Tor and Privoxy,
which can be used together for anonymous surfing with
a web browser.

that includes signing up to webmail sites like
yahoo.com and then subscribing to a list such as
Wikipedia, or even Vortex.

Since you have a real email address, you can confirm a
subscription if required to do so, but neither the
webmail site nor the list you are subscribing to knows
your real IP.

At the moment then, requiring an email address to be
confirmed may not mean that the subscriber can be
traced.

I have the feeling that won't last, because more of
the webmail sites are requiring that Java or
Javascript be turned on in the browser before allowing
you to sign up. Doing that lets the site to get past
the protection of Tor and Privoxy and find out your
real IP.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

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From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec medleas.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <7.0.0.16.2.20051214170805.03a822e0 mindspring.com> <43A23447.1050208@pobox.com>
Subject: Re: Arata's gas-loaded double-structured cathode
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 22:04:04 -0500
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" <salaw pobox.com>
Subject: Re: Arata's gas-loaded double-structured cathode


> Cool paper!  Do you know if the effect is as reproducible as it sounds? 
> The paper makes it sounds like he just throws the switch, and the D2 with 
> Pd reactor performs on demand.   In that way, it sounds almost like 
> Patterson's bead cells, but without the "black magic" required to make the 
> special beads.

Arata cathodes were used by Mike McKubre at SRI a few years ago. My 
understanding is that McKubre attempted to fabricate the cathodes himself 
[in SRI's facilities] withou success. It is no accident that Arata's 
colleague was head of the metallurgy department at the university. Palladium 
is notoriously difficult to machine and weld. Making bidder cathodes is 
interesting, and the technique of fabrication could probably be mastered. 
Note that fundamentally it is a technique of gas loading of extremely 
fractured particulate surfaces. The particles are only a few hundred atoms 
in any dimension.

Mike Carrell 


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Subject: Arata errata
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec medleas.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 10:04 PM
Subject: Re: Arata's gas-loaded double-structured cathode

Oops: I said "bidder cathodes" instead of "bigger cathodes"

Mike Carrell

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 16 19:34:49 2005
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From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Correa attacks Wikipedia
In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20051216144500.02b5b608 mail.newenergytimes.com>
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On Fri, 16 Dec 2005, Steven Krivit wrote:

> Bill B's got a good point. This is one of the aspects which makes Vortex
> such a valuable group.
> Most people are willing to identify themselves and stand behind their words.

In observing (or fighting with) flamer types over the years, I noticed
that one of the major characteristics that reliably defines "flamer" is...
anonymity!  Serious people give their real names (and often provide a
message sig with personal website, city, etc.)  Immature or abusive people
use handles.  I've seen a number of forums which harness this effect to
improve their online community:  requiring the use of real names, or at
the very least requiring that users have a real email address (not free
mail such as yahoo, etc.)

In the online world, if your real name is like your face, then a handle is
like wearing a mask.  In realworld society if you're out shopping or
walking down the street (or waiting in a bank,) how do you respond to
people who walk in wearing masks?  What would you think of a person who
spent all their time wearing a mask?  How about an entire town where the
residents traditionally wear masks all the time?

Online handles are really very weird.  We got used to them, and they were
a novelty at first.  But whenever a community arises where mask-wearing is
perfectly acceptable, then personal responsibility for our actions is
disrupted, and that community seems to automatically attract all the bad
parts of Marti Gras.

With Wikipedia, if the point is to prevent "famous experts" with
recognizable names from being taken more seriously than others, then they
need to do the anonymity thing differently.  Let people "wear masks," but
connect them permanently to the SAME masks, perhaps by requiring real
names/addresses/emails during registration, but allowing other users to
only see the online username/handle.  That way the playing field is
leveled, yet also you *are* your mask, so you're not really anonymous.



(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb at amasci com                         http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair
Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 16 19:43:16 2005
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From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: OT: Secrets of bee flight revealed
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On Wed, 7 Dec 2005, Harry Veeder wrote:
>
> William Beaty wrote:
> > But I already know the answer.  It's simple:  Pressure differentials
> > explain 100% of the lifting force, while flow-deflection (the acceleration
> > of fluid masses) also explains 100% of the lifting force.  These are
> > simply two independant ways of attacking the problem.  There is no
> > competition between a "Bernoulli"  viewpoint and a "Newton" viewpoint.
> > This is just another way of saying that the Bernoulli equation ends up
> > obeying Newton's laws.   Or in other words, if the water is deflected,
> > there MUST be a pressure differential which causes a lifting force... and
> > if there is a lifting force, then the water MUST be deflected.
>
> I don't think the two explanations are equivalent.
> During level flight the Bernoulli explanation DOES NOT predict that
> the fluid leaving the wing tip will be directed downwards.

On the contrary, in 3D flight the Bernoulli explanation *requires* that
fluid leaving the wing tip be deflected downwards.  That's the reason for
sharp trailing edges, the reason that cambered airfoils give lift at zero
attack, and it's the whole point of the "Kutta Condition."

But there's also a wrong explanation that wormed its way into many books,
and explanation which depicts the air flowing horizontally off the
trailing edge of an untilted wing.  The diagram is wrong, and real wings
only do such a thing when adjusted to give zero lifting force.  The
diagrams showing undeflected air are certainly not the "Bernoulli
explanation."  The wrong explanation has become known as the "Popular
explanation" or the "equal transit-time fallacy" in order to distinguish
it from the "Bernoulli explanation."

In other words...  since an airfoil always deflects air downwards from its
trailing edge in order to generate a lifting force, then all correct
explanations of airfoil function will include the downward deflection of
air as part of the explanation.


(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb at amasci com                         http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair
Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci

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From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: RE: OT: Secrets of bee flight revealed
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On Wed, 7 Dec 2005, Rick Monteverde wrote:

> >But the incoming air will fill the vacuum chamber, with
> >the wave travelling at roughly the speed of sound!
> >In human time scale, as soon as you open the valve
> >and generate an air jet, significant air pressure
> >appears on the OTHER side of the wing.  You can't
> >just claim that the pressure there is insignificant,
> >instead you have to measure it, millisecond by millisecond.
>
> The pump is large compared to the small jar volume, and once that dense
> air in the jet disperses, which it does very quickly, density and
> pressure get pretty low pretty fast before much of it swirls around
> underneath the foil. To see it and its scale is convincing. Seeing my
> writing about it isn't.

Eh.   Seeing the demonstration wouldn't convince me, since my brain would
insist that "SINCE the airfoil is deflected upwards, THEREFORE the
pressure underneath is greater than the pressure above."

:)

>
> >If you can show that air can PULL on a curved wing
> >(i.e. create an absolute negative pressure,)
> >that's something very interesting.
>
> Yup. It's been shown too, but not by me. Google should bring it up with
> words like van der Waals, airfoil, boundary layer, etc.

But that's just lowered pressure, not absolute negative (attraction)
pressure.

Boundary layer stuff is weird, but I've never seen articles talking about
negative gas pressure.

It's hard to see how a molecule, by colliding with a surface, could
*attract* that surface.  And it's hard to see how widely separated
molecules could attract each other on average, especially if they're
moving fast enough to bounce during collisions (which would create a
strong repulsion force which would have to be canceled out by any
attraction mechanism.)  If they don't bounce during collisions, then
that's called condensation.   :)

> Why else would a
> flow stick against a surface and follow it down around a curve like
> that?

For air jets in air, or for water jets underwater, Coanda Effect explains
it:  air flows always entrain adjacent air, pulling the adjacent air into
the flow.  Or said another way, flows always represent lower pressure, so
if air is flowing parallel to an object, the perpendicular force between
the flow and the object will be reduced, causing the flow and the object
to accelerate towards each other as the outer (non-flowing) air exerts its
non-reduced pressure.  Blow some air parallel to one side of a dangling
piece of paper and the paper will be pushed into the flow so it "adheres"
to the flow.  And the flow will "stick" to the paper, bending away from
it's original trajectory.


Separate topic: In that old SciAm article about Coanda Effect, they found
that tiny structures within the boundary layer could have large effects,
so a small step or striation on the surface would make the flow-adhesion
effect stronger.  I remember one oddity from conventional textbooks: if
you put a polished sphere in a wind tunnel, the smoke will curve around
the sphere and follow the back of the sphere for quite a ways before
"detaching" and becoming turbulent... but if you add a small disk of thin
sandpaper (or even roughened paint) to the very front of the sphere, the
smoke then detaches right at the circumference of the sphere, and it won't
follow the curve around to the back of the sphere at all.  Just that tiny
change to the front of the sphere will put the entire rear of the sphere
into "stall mode."

Aircraft designers know all about the effect:  just a small bit of rough
ice on the leading edge and top of an aircraft wing will trigger early
flow-detachment, ruining the lift and leading to crashes on takeoff.
That's why they're so paranoid about "de-icing" the tops of airliner
wings.  The airfoil bottoms are mostly irrelevant (and you can even hang
huge fuel tanks and racks of missles down there.)

Also there's a whole group of experimental aircraft hobbyists who
specialize in high-lift "laminar flow" wings with highly polished upper
surfaces.  These aren't widely used because their characteristics are
seriously altered by a small bit of raindrops clinging to the wing.


>
> I never finished construction on it, but I started a rig where the
> airfoil sat on a membrane with good vacuum under the membrane in a
> separate chamnber from the air above the foil. Air jet would hit the top
> of the foil as before, but the whole bottom side would be against the
> membrane. Pump would keep the air above at as low a pressure as possible
> while the jet shot across the foil surface.

Now THAT would be more convincing (even more convincing that measuring the
pressure under your first airfoil.)

> I figure the foil would
> still rise into the airflow, pulling up on the membrane with the
> certain-to-be-lower pressure below it.
>
> Maybe simpler to use a split chamber with water instead of air?

Or use an oil stream in a vacuum?   But then you might get genuinely
negative fluid pressure, the same negative pressure that's the source of
"surface tension."



>
> - Rick
>
>
>
>

(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb at amasci com                         http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair
Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci

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Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 20:10:30 -0800 (PST)
From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Correa attacks Wikipedia
In-Reply-To: <20051216233347.82110.qmail web35010.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
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On Fri, 16 Dec 2005, Rhong Dhong wrote:

> At the moment then, requiring an email address to be
> confirmed may not mean that the subscriber can be
> traced.

Where anonymity is banned (or where money is involved,) some places refuse
to honor yahoo.com email addresses or other free email services for
confirmations.   Then you have to search for a free email service which
the forum owners haven't added to their exclude list.




(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb at amasci com                         http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair
Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 16 20:20:53 2005
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Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 23:18:58 -0500
From: Harry Veeder <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: OT: Secrets of bee flight revealed
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Ok, I stand corrected.
Harry

William Beaty wrote:

> On Wed, 7 Dec 2005, Harry Veeder wrote:
>> 
>> William Beaty wrote:
>>> But I already know the answer.  It's simple:  Pressure differentials
>>> explain 100% of the lifting force, while flow-deflection (the acceleration
>>> of fluid masses) also explains 100% of the lifting force.  These are
>>> simply two independant ways of attacking the problem.  There is no
>>> competition between a "Bernoulli"  viewpoint and a "Newton" viewpoint.
>>> This is just another way of saying that the Bernoulli equation ends up
>>> obeying Newton's laws.   Or in other words, if the water is deflected,
>>> there MUST be a pressure differential which causes a lifting force... and
>>> if there is a lifting force, then the water MUST be deflected.
>> 
>> I don't think the two explanations are equivalent.
>> During level flight the Bernoulli explanation DOES NOT predict that
>> the fluid leaving the wing tip will be directed downwards.
> 
> On the contrary, in 3D flight the Bernoulli explanation *requires* that
> fluid leaving the wing tip be deflected downwards.  That's the reason for
> sharp trailing edges, the reason that cambered airfoils give lift at zero
> attack, and it's the whole point of the "Kutta Condition."
> 
> But there's also a wrong explanation that wormed its way into many books,
> and explanation which depicts the air flowing horizontally off the
> trailing edge of an untilted wing.  The diagram is wrong, and real wings
> only do such a thing when adjusted to give zero lifting force.  The
> diagrams showing undeflected air are certainly not the "Bernoulli
> explanation."  The wrong explanation has become known as the "Popular
> explanation" or the "equal transit-time fallacy" in order to distinguish
> it from the "Bernoulli explanation."
> 
> In other words...  since an airfoil always deflects air downwards from its
> trailing edge in order to generate a lifting force, then all correct
> explanations of airfoil function will include the downward deflection of
> air as part of the explanation.
> 
> 
> (((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
> William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
> billb at amasci com                         http://amasci.com
> EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair
> Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 16 20:57:26 2005
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
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Subject: Re: Arata's gas-loaded double-structured cathode
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 Mike Carrell wrote:
>
> Arata cathodes were used by Mike McKubre at SRI a few years ago. My 
> understanding is that McKubre attempted to fabricate the cathodes himself 
> [in SRI's facilities] without success. It is no accident that Arata's 
> colleague was head of the metallurgy department at the university.
Palladium 
> is notoriously difficult to machine and weld. Making bigger cathodes is 
> interesting, and the technique of fabrication could probably be mastered. 
> Note that fundamentally it is a technique of gas loading of extremely 
> fractured particulate surfaces. The particles are only a few hundred
atoms 
> in any dimension.
>
Might be best to explode Pd wires in D2, or in high purity D2O like these
folks did 
in H2O to get Silver nanoparticles:

The method:

http://www.ias.ac.in/chemsci/Pdf-OctDec2003/Pc3336.pdf

And the results:

http://www.ias.ac.in/pramana/v65/p815/abs.htm

Fred

>
> Mike Carrell 
>


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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 16 23:06:25 2005
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Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 07:05:53 +0000
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Grimer <f.grimer grimer2.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Ooops! Fancy that!  8-)
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I've just realised one of the consequences 
of the 3D Casimir Law.

Stefan's fourth power law only presents a one 
dimensional view of things. In fact the energy 
density goes down according to (LAC)^(-12) where 
LAC is Local Absolute Compreture and Compreture 
is the reciprocal of temperature as measured 
from the local "absolute" zero.

That why the Vapour Pressure vs. temperature 
is a twelfth power law.

Oh dearie me. The physicists won't be pleased. 
But I will certainly enjoy the schadenfreude.  8-)

Cheers,

Frank Grimer


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 17 02:54:25 2005
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From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk
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Subject: RE: Correa attacks Wikipedia
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VO,
Perhaps they need a centrally administered site across the web, some kind of
extra-national thing providing bona-fides for web interactions. One would
register with conventional documents such as drivers license, passport etc.
and you'd log on to it (some generated bit string unique to oneself) before
doing any secured site surfing to say you are currently on the net, the
secured site would then quiz it to find out who you were no matter what the
moniker?

Just a guess without thinking things through. A sort of centralised
repository of names, webs, computer serial numbers etc. If you don't sign
up, you don't play.

Sleepy and dozy at the moment so point the flaws out please. Might be back
Tuesday.
Remi.

-----Original Message-----
From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On
Behalf Of William Beaty
Sent: 17 December 2005 04:11
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Correa attacks Wikipedia

On Fri, 16 Dec 2005, Rhong Dhong wrote:

> At the moment then, requiring an email address to be
> confirmed may not mean that the subscriber can be
> traced.

Where anonymity is banned (or where money is involved,) some places refuse
to honor yahoo.com email addresses or other free email services for
confirmations.   Then you have to search for a free email service which
the forum owners haven't added to their exclude list.




(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb at amasci com                         http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair
Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 17 04:53:13 2005
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Subject: Re: A Conductive Jet Switch?
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Since exploding wire technology is employed to maximize energy density, but
is slow and cumbersome, why not a jet of electrolyte or metal to effect kilojoule-megajoule
energy discharge of capacitor banks?
For instance a pool of  Lithium Hydroxide Electrolyte, D2 Gas, or D2O on top  of a Cathode Pool of 
Mercury with an insulation-sleeved Tungsten-Tipped Anode in a sealed chamber, triggered by
electro-hydraulic  actuation of a plunger-orifice device in the pool?

Fred
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<HTML><HEAD>
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2802" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Since exploding wire technology is employed to maximize energy density, but</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>is slow and cumbersome, why not a jet of electrolyte or metal to effect kilojoule-megajoule</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>energy discharge of capacitor banks?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>For instance a pool of&nbsp; Lithium Hydroxide Electrolyte, D2 Gas,&nbsp;or D2O on top&nbsp; of a Cathode Pool of </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Mercury with an insulation-sleeved Tungsten-Tipped Anode in a sealed chamber, triggered by</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>electro-hydraulic&nbsp; actuation of a plunger-orifice device in the pool?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Fred</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 17 05:22:21 2005
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Subject: Re: A Conductive Jet Switch?
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Reminiscent of the early 1940's when a neighbor kid urinated on
an electric fence,Once.

Fred


----- Original Message ----- 
From: Frederick Sparber 
To: vortex-l
Sent: 12/17/2005 5:52:07 AM 
Subject: Re: A Conductive Jet Switch?


Since exploding wire technology is employed to maximize energy density, but
is slow and cumbersome, why not a jet of electrolyte or metal to effect kilojoule-megajoule
energy discharge of capacitor banks?
For instance a pool of  Lithium Hydroxide Electrolyte, D2 Gas, or D2O on top  of a Cathode Pool of 
Mercury with an insulation-sleeved Tungsten-Tipped Anode in a sealed chamber, triggered by
electro-hydraulic  actuation of a plunger-orifice device in the pool?

Fred
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8
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<HTML style="FONT-SIZE: x-small; FONT-FAMILY: MS Sans Serif"><HEAD>
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<BODY>
<DIV>
<DIV>Reminiscent of the early 1940's when a neighbor kid urinated on</DIV>
<DIV>an electric fence,Once.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Fred</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=fjsparber earthlink.net href="mailto:fjsparber@earthlink.net">Frederick Sparber</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To: </B><A title=vortex-l eskimo.com href="mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com">vortex-l</A></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> 12/17/2005 5:52:07 AM </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: A Conductive Jet Switch?</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><FONT size=2>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Since exploding wire technology is employed to maximize energy density, but</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>is slow and cumbersome, why not a jet of electrolyte or metal to effect kilojoule-megajoule</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>energy discharge of capacitor banks?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>For instance a pool of&nbsp; Lithium Hydroxide Electrolyte, D2 Gas,&nbsp;or D2O on top&nbsp; of a Cathode Pool of </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Mercury with an insulation-sleeved Tungsten-Tipped Anode in a sealed chamber, triggered by</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>electro-hydraulic&nbsp; actuation of a plunger-orifice device in the pool?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Fred</FONT></DIV></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8--


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 17 06:41:15 2005
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From: "RC Macaulay" <walhalla cvtv.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Subject: Re: Ooops! Fancy that!  8-)
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Hi Frank... it came as a "bolt out of the blue". Like viewing a two legged 
stool from the face. Looks balanced.. until you take a side view and notice 
something is missing.... the balance... ah ha! The Vapor pressure vs the 
Temperature  in 12th power can be thought of as a "differential function"
Do you actually consider that physics would accept such an observation ? Or 
will they continue to think in 2 dimensions or rely on their marvelous 
ability to sustain a balancing act of sitting on a two legged stool actually 
believing they can lean back upon their laurels ?  Time to put away the toys 
and the teeter-totters and get the world show on the road. Surely this group 
has the imagination to conceive the huge leap that Frank's thought invokes.
Richard
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Grimer" <f.grimer grimer2.freeserve.co.uk>
To: <vortex-L eskimo.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2005 1:05 AM
Subject: Ooops! Fancy that! 8-)


> I've just realised one of the consequences
> of the 3D Casimir Law.
>
> Stefan's fourth power law only presents a one
> dimensional view of things. In fact the energy
> density goes down according to (LAC)^(-12) where
> LAC is Local Absolute Compreture and Compreture
> is the reciprocal of temperature as measured
> from the local "absolute" zero.
>
> That why the Vapour Pressure vs. temperature
> is a twelfth power law.
>
> Oh dearie me. The physicists won't be pleased.
> But I will certainly enjoy the schadenfreude.  8-)
>
> Cheers,
>
> Frank Grimer
>
>
> 


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Then, shouldn't that light bulb floating above your head be much 
brighter?  ;-)


-----Original Message-----
From: Grimer

I've just realised one of the consequences
of the 3D Casimir Law.

Stefan's fourth power law only presents a one
dimensional view of things. In fact the energy
density goes down according to (LAC)^(-12) where
LAC is Local Absolute Compreture and Compreture
is the reciprocal of temperature as measured
from the local "absolute" zero.

That why the Vapour Pressure vs. temperature
is a twelfth power law.

Oh dearie me. The physicists won't be pleased.
But I will certainly enjoy the schadenfreude.  8-)
___________________________________________________
Try the New Netscape Mail Today!
Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List
http://mail.netscape.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 17 08:00:44 2005
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From: "Karina" <mrshaines charter.net>
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 =0D
 =0D
-------Original Message-------=0D
 =0D
From: patty=0D
Date: 12/14/05 17:05:30=0D
To: karina haines=0D
Cc: karina haines=0D
Subject: Fw: Colonoscopies=0D
 =0D
 =0D
----- Original Message ----- =0D
From: Gary Tidd =0D
To: geo ainop.com =0D
Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2005 1:52 PM=0D
Subject: Fw: Colonoscopies=0D
=0D
=0D
 =0D
----- Original Message ----- =0D
From: Joan Romano =0D
To: BruceMaggie ; Denise Tucker ; Gary Tidd ; Karen =0D
Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2005 6:24 AM=0D
Subject: Fw: Colonoscopies=0D
=0D
=0D
 =0D
 =0D
Joan Romano=0D
korilab1 earthlink.net=0D
Why Wait? Move to EarthLink.=0D
 =0D
 =0D
----- Original Message ----- =0D
From: Robert Lunt =0D
To: Barbara;Bob;Edward Campbell;Mark&Holly =0D
Cc: Ed Bettencourt III; Joan=0D
Sent: 12/6/2005 6:30:36 PM =0D
Subject: Fw: Colonoscopies=0D
=0D
=0D
 =0D
 =0D
Robert Lunt=0D
dde860 earthlink.net=0D
Why Wait? Move to EarthLink.=0D
 =0D
 =0D
----- Original Message ----- =0D
From: Brigitte =0D
To: areckhart1973 hotmail.com;Eebbaaww1@aol.com;daliboggs@certainty.net
cludwig765 aol.com;darcy@certainty.net;lwoods@howardhanna.com;robertkeip@=
aol
com;dde860 earthlink.net=0D
Sent: 12/5/2005 10:53:11 AM =0D
Subject: Fw: Colonoscopies=0D
=0D
=0D
 =0D
Comments by patients during Colonoscopies =0D
Colonoscopies are no joke , but these comments during the exam were quite
humorous...... A physician claimed that the following are actual comments
made by his patients (predominately male) while he was performing their
colonoscopies: =0D
1. "Take it easy, Doc. You're boldly going where no man has gone before! =
=0D
2. "Find Amelia Earhart yet?" =0D
3. "Can you hear me NOW?" =0D
4. "Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet?" =0D
5. "You know, in Arkansas, we're now legally married." =0D
6. "Any sign of the trapped miners, Chief?" =0D
7. "You put your left hand in, you take your left hand out..." =0D
8. "Hey! Now I know how a Muppet feels!" =0D
9. "If your hand doesn't fit, you must quit! =0D
10. "Hey Doc, let me know if you find my dignity." =0D
11. "You used to be an executive at Enron, didn't you?" =0D
12. "God, now I know why I am not gay." =0D
And the best one of all... =0D
13. "Could you write a note for my wife saying that my head is not up her=
e?"
=0D
 =0D
 =0D
=20
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<DIV id=3Dreceivestrings>
<DIV dir=3Dltr style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><I><B>From:</B></I> <A href=3D"m=
ailto:geo ainop.com">patty</A></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><I><B>Date:</B></I> 12/14/05 17:=
05:30</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><I><B>To:</B></I> <A href=3D"mai=
lto:mrshaines charter.net">karina haines</A></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><I><B>Cc:</B></I> <A href=3D"mai=
lto:mrshaines charter.net">karina haines</A></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><I><B>Subject:</B></I> Fw: Colon=
oscopies</DIV></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----=20
<DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A tit=
le=3Dgman pioneercable.net href=3D"mailto:gman@pioneercable.net">Gary Tid=
d</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=3Dgeo ainop.com href=3D"mailto:geo@ainop.com">ge=
o ainop.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, December 13, 2005 1:52 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Fw: Colonoscopies</DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----=20
<DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A tit=
le=3Dkorilab1 earthlink.net href=3D"mailto:korilab1@earthlink.net">Joan R=
omano</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=3DBruceMaggie AOL.com href=3D"mailto:BruceMaggie=
 AOL.com">BruceMaggie</A> ; <A title=3DTuckerd246@sbcglobal.net href=3D"m=
ailto:Tuckerd246 sbcglobal.net">Denise Tucker</A> ; <A title=3Dgman@pione=
ercable.net href=3D"mailto:gman pioneercable.net">Gary Tidd</A> ; <A titl=
e=3Dhutch1163 msn.com href=3D"mailto:hutch1163@msn.com">Karen</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, December 13, 2005 6:24 AM</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Fw: Colonoscopies</DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>Joan Romano</DIV>
<DIV><A href=3D"mailto:korilab1 earthlink.net">korilab1@earthlink.net</A>=
</DIV>
<DIV>Why Wait? Move to EarthLink.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; rem_PADDING-LEFT: 5px; rem_MARGIN-LEFT:=
 5px; rem_BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><=
B>From:</B> <A title=3Ddde860 earthlink.net href=3D"mailto:dde860@earthli=
nk.net">Robert Lunt</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To: </B><A title=3Dbarbjh2000 yahoo.co=
m href=3D"mailto:barbjh2000 yahoo.com">Barbara</A>;<A title=3Ddelsfolly@a=
ol.com href=3D"mailto:delsfolly aol.com">Bob</A>;<A title=3Dedcvt@msn.com=
 href=3D"mailto:edcvt msn.com">Edward Campbell</A>;<A title=3Dmarkandholl=
y earthlink.net href=3D"mailto:markandholly@earthlink.net">Mark&amp;Holly=
</A>=20
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc: </B><A title=3Debettencourt3rd yah=
oo.com href=3D"mailto:ebettencourt3rd yahoo.com">Ed Bettencourt III</A>; =
<A title=3Dkorilab1 earthlink.net href=3D"mailto:korilab1@earthlink.net">=
Joan</A></DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> 12/6/2005 6:30:36 PM </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Fw: Colonoscopies</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><FONT size=3D2>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"MS Sans Serif" size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>Robert Lunt</DIV>
<DIV><A href=3D"mailto:dde860 earthlink.net">dde860@earthlink.net</A></DI=
V>
<DIV>Why Wait? Move to EarthLink.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; rem_PADDING-LEFT: 5px; rem_MARGIN-LEFT:=
 5px; rem_BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><=
B>From:</B> <A title=3Dbrig1 earthlink.net href=3D"mailto:brig1@earthlink=
=2Enet">Brigitte</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To: </B><A title=3Dareckhart1973 hotma=
il.com href=3D"mailto:areckhart1973 hotmail.com">areckhart1973@hotmail.co=
m</A>;<A title=3DEebbaaww1 aol.com href=3D"mailto:Eebbaaww1@aol.com">Eebb=
aaww1 aol.com</A>;<A title=3Ddaliboggs@certainty.net href=3D"mailto:dalib=
oggs certainty.net">daliboggs@certainty.net</A>;<A title=3Dcludwig765@aol=
=2Ecom href=3D"mailto:cludwig765 aol.com">cludwig765@aol.com</A>;<A title=
=3Ddarcy certainty.net href=3D"mailto:darcy@certainty.net">darcy@certaint=
y.net</A>;<A title=3Dlwoods howardhanna.com href=3D"mailto:lwoods@howardh=
anna.com">lwoods howardhanna.com</A>;<A title=3Drobertkeip@aol.com href=3D=
"mailto:robertkeip aol.com">robertkeip@aol.com</A>;<A title=3Ddde860@eart=
hlink.net href=3D"mailto:dde860 earthlink.net">dde860@earthlink.net</A></=
DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> 12/5/2005 10:53:11 AM </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Fw: Colonoscopies</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><FONT size=3D2>
<DIV>
<DIV id=3D0>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>
<P><FONT style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11px; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma,sans-serif"><B><I>=
<U><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#00cc33 size=3D6><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT=
: bold; FONT-SIZE: 24pt; COLOR: #00cc33; FONT-STYLE: italic; FONT-FAMILY:=
 Arial">Comments by patients during Colonoscopies</SPAN></FONT></U></I></=
B><B><I><U><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblack size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-=
WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-STYLE: italic; FONT-FAM=
ILY: Arial"> </SPAN></FONT></U></I></B></P>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; rem_PADDING-LEFT: 5px; rem_MARGIN-LEFT: =
5px; rem_BORDER-LEFT: #a0c6e5 2px solid">
<DIV class=3DSection1>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV id=3DAOLMsgPart_4_8b1948bb-a656-4e4b-bb01-5bf4065a3690 style=3D"MARG=
IN: 7.5pt">
<DIV id=3DAOLMsgPart_7_8b1948bb-a656-4e4b-bb01-5bf4065a3690>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV id=3DAOLMsgPart_2_6505d95a-6c4b-4724-bd29-a549618ed7c8>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV id=3DAOLMsgPart_7_617e7238-3252-4c46-834f-3e0f97ff783e style=3D"MARG=
IN: 7.5pt">
<DIV id=3DAOLMsgPart_10_617e7238-3252-4c46-834f-3e0f97ff783e style=3D"MAR=
GIN: 7.5pt">
<DIV id=3DAOLMsgPart_13_617e7238-3252-4c46-834f-3e0f97ff783e>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style=3D"rem_MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in">
<P class=3DMsoNormal><B><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#cc0099 size=3D4><SPAN=
 style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; COLOR: #cc0099; FONT-FAMI=
LY: Arial">Colonoscopies are</SPAN></FONT></B><B><I><FONT face=3D"Comic S=
ans MS" color=3Dblack size=3D5><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZ=
E: 18pt; COLOR: black; FONT-STYLE: italic; FONT-FAMILY: 'Comic Sans MS'">=
 </SPAN></FONT></I></B><B><I><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#cc0099 size=3D4>=
<SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; COLOR: #cc0099; FONT=
-STYLE: italic; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">no joke </SPAN></FONT></I></B><B><FON=
T face=3DArial color=3D#cc0099 size=3D4><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold;=
 FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; COLOR: #cc0099; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">, but these comme=
nts during the exam were quite</SPAN></FONT></B><B><FONT face=3DArial col=
or=3Dblack size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; CO=
LOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> </SPAN></FONT></B><B><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#cc0099 size=3D4><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 13.=
5pt; COLOR: #cc0099; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">humorous...... A physician claim=
ed that the following are actual comments made by his patients (predomina=
tely male) while he was performing their colonoscopies:</SPAN></FONT></B>=
<FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblack size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt;=
 COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> </SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style=3D"rem_MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in">
<P class=3DMsoNormal><B><FONT face=3DGeneva color=3D#330099 size=3D4><SPA=
N style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; COLOR: #330099; FONT-FAM=
ILY: Geneva">1. "Take it easy, Doc. You're boldly going where no man has =
gone before! </SPAN></FONT></B></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style=3D"rem_MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in">
<P class=3DMsoNormal><B><FONT face=3DGeneva color=3D#ff3333 size=3D4><SPA=
N style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; COLOR: #ff3333; FONT-FAM=
ILY: Geneva">2. "Find Amelia Earhart yet?"</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=3D=
Arial color=3Dblack size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black=
; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> </SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style=3D"rem_MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in">
<P class=3DMsoNormal><B><FONT face=3DGeneva color=3D#cc33cc size=3D4><SPA=
N style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; COLOR: #cc33cc; FONT-FAM=
ILY: Geneva">3. "Can you hear me NOW?" </SPAN></FONT></B></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style=3D"rem_MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in">
<P class=3DMsoNormal><B><FONT face=3DGeneva color=3D#00cc99 size=3D4><SPA=
N style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; COLOR: #00cc99; FONT-FAM=
ILY: Geneva">4. "Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet?" <=
/SPAN></FONT></B></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style=3D"rem_MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in">
<P class=3DMsoNormal><B><FONT face=3DGeneva color=3D#990000 size=3D4><SPA=
N style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; COLOR: #990000; FONT-FAM=
ILY: Geneva">5. "You know, in Arkansas, we're now legally married."</SPAN=
></FONT></B><B><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblack size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"F=
ONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> </S=
PAN></FONT></B></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style=3D"rem_MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in">
<P class=3DMsoNormal><B><FONT face=3DGeneva color=3D#ffcc00 size=3D4><SPA=
N style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; COLOR: #ffcc00; FONT-FAM=
ILY: Geneva">6. "Any sign of the trapped miners, Chief?"</SPAN></FONT></B=
><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3Dblack size=3D5><SPAN style=3D"FONT-=
SIZE: 18pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Comic Sans MS'"> </SPAN></FONT></=
P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style=3D"rem_MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in">
<P class=3DMsoNormal><B><FONT face=3DGeneva color=3D#ff00cc size=3D4><SPA=
N style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; COLOR: #ff00cc; FONT-FAM=
ILY: Geneva">7. "You put your left hand in, you take your left hand out..=
=2E" </SPAN></FONT></B></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style=3D"rem_MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in">
<P class=3DMsoNormal><B><FONT face=3DGeneva color=3D#00cc33 size=3D4><SPA=
N style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; COLOR: #00cc33; FONT-FAM=
ILY: Geneva">8. "Hey! Now I know how a Muppet feels!"</SPAN></FONT></B><F=
ONT face=3DArial color=3Dblack size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; C=
OLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> </SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style=3D"rem_MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in">
<P class=3DMsoNormal><B><FONT face=3DGeneva color=3D#6600ff size=3D4><SPA=
N style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; COLOR: #6600ff; FONT-FAM=
ILY: Geneva">9. "If your hand doesn't fit, you must quit!</SPAN></FONT></=
B><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblack size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10p=
t; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> </SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style=3D"rem_MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in">
<P class=3DMsoNormal><B><FONT face=3DGeneva color=3D#ff0099 size=3D4><SPA=
N style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; COLOR: #ff0099; FONT-FAM=
ILY: Geneva">10. "Hey Doc, let me know if you find my dignity."</SPAN></F=
ONT></B><B><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblack size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-=
WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> </SPAN>=
</FONT></B></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style=3D"rem_MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in">
<P class=3DMsoNormal><B><FONT face=3DGeneva color=3D#996666 size=3D4><SPA=
N style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; COLOR: #996666; FONT-FAM=
ILY: Geneva">11. "You used to be an executive at Enron, didn't you?" </SP=
AN></FONT></B></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style=3D"rem_MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in">
<P class=3DMsoNormal><B><FONT face=3DGeneva color=3D#9933cc size=3D4><SPA=
N style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; COLOR: #9933cc; FONT-FAM=
ILY: Geneva">12. "God, now I know why I am not gay."</SPAN></FONT></B><FO=
NT face=3DArial color=3Dblack size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; CO=
LOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> </SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style=3D"rem_MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in">
<P class=3DMsoNormal><B><I><U><FONT face=3D"Arial Black" color=3D#ff0033 =
size=3D4><SPAN><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; COLOR=
: #ff0033; FONT-STYLE: italic; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial Black'">And the best o=
ne of all...</SPAN></SPAN></FONT></U></I></B><FONT face=3DArial color=3Db=
lack size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"> </SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style=3D"rem_MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in">
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N style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; COLOR: #3366ff; FONT-FAM=
ILY: Geneva">13. "Could you write a note for my wife saying that my head =
is not up here?" </SPAN></FONT></B></P></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DI=
V></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style=3D"rem_MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in">
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN style=3D=
"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</P></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV><=
/DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN-TOP: 7.5pt">
<DIV style=3D"rem_MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in">&nbsp;</DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV=
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ABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><SPAN id=3DIncrediStamp><SPAN dir=3Dltr><A=
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 17 08:25:06 2005
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Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 16:24:35 +0000
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Grimer <f.grimer grimer2.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Ooops! Fancy that!  8-)
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At 08:38 am 17/12/2005 -0600, you wrote:

> Hi Frank... it came as a "bolt out of the blue". 
> Like viewing a two legged stool from the face. 
> Looks balanced.. until you take a side view and 
> notice something is missing.... the balance... 
> ah ha! The Vapour pressure vs the Temperature  
> in 12th power can be thought of as a "differential 
> function" Do you actually consider that physics 
> would accept such an observation? Or will they 
> continue to think in 2 dimensions or rely on their 
> marvelous ability to sustain a balancing act of 
> sitting on a two legged stool actually believing 
> they can lean back upon their laurels?  Time to 
> put away the toys and the teeter-totters and get 
> the world show on the road. Surely this group has 
> the imagination to conceive the huge leap that 
> Frank's thought invokes.

> Richard


I'm really impressed Richard.  8-)

I didn't think anyone on Vortex would geddit.

As for Stefan's Law (and all the quantum consequences) 
it's more like a one legged stool. That's why they 
have to be so clever to keep their balance.  ;-)

I've written a little fable to illustrate the point.

----------------------------------------------------
            THE BROTHERS SHORTPLANK
----------------------------------------------------

The two Shortplank Brothers had a great cubic pile 
of bread pallets. Tricky Dicky offered to buy half 
the bread. So the Shortplanks measured the cube and 
found it was 40 feet long. Tricky took away his 
pallets. To make sure Tricky hadn't taken too many 
the Shortplanks measured their cubic pile to check
it was 20 feet long. 

It was. 

Dicky started selling his bread at half Shortplank's 
price The Shortplank brothers couldn't understand 
how Tricky managed this. Needless to say, ere long, 
the brothers went out of business.

Hence the saying, "As thick as two Shortplanks".  8-)
-----------------------------------------------------

Cheers,

Frank

   ====================================
   et sublatum est quod superfuit illis 
       fragmentorum cofini duodecim 
   ====================================









From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 17 08:34:14 2005
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At 10:23 am 17/12/2005 -0500, hohlraum wrote:
> Then, shouldn't that light bulb floating 
> above your head be much brighter?  ;-)


Not if you are only looking at the front
elevation and you forget about the side
elevation and plan.   <g>





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If such a switch work well, one could also use NaK or molten Lithium or such.

A former vortex list member has a 50 kilojoule at ~ 1100 volts capacitor bank
sitting in his barn, "available at a bargain basement price plus Shipping and
Handling to a qualified researcher."

We had those professional types on this list once before Bill B let it become an anything
goes, forum.  :-(

Fred
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<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=3>If such a switch work well, one could&nbsp;also use NaK or molten Lithium or such.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif">A former vortex list member has a 50 kilojoule at ~ 1100 volts capacitor bank</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif">sitting in his barn, "available at a bargain basement price plus Shipping and</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif">Handling to a qualified researcher."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif">We had those professional types on this list once before Bill B let it become an anything</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif">goes, forum.&nbsp; :-(</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif">Fred</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 17 12:22:24 2005
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
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Subject: Re: Productive Sequestering
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In reply to  Jed Rothwell's message of Fri, 16 Dec 2005 17:55:28
-0500:
Hi,
[snip]
>lot of it comes out mixed with the natural gas and oil. Nowadays they 
>force oil out by pumping water into wells, and it takes a lot of 
>energy to separate the water from the oil.
[snip]
It shouldn't take any energy. You let the mixture flow into a long
narrow reservoir, and gravity separates the two. At the other end,
you remove the oil from the surface, and the water from the
bottom.
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
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Subject: Re: anisotropic universe
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 07:37:58 +1100
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In reply to  RC Macaulay's message of Thu, 15 Dec 2005 07:35:56
-0600:
Hi,
[snip]
>
>Hi Thomas,
>See the Author's link to Science news
>http://www.sciencenews.org/pages/sn_arc97/4_26_97/fob1.asp
>
[snip]
I wonder if they took the magnetic fields of the Sun and the Earth
into account? Or perhaps that of the local galactic cluster, or
the supercluster to which it in turn belongs?

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

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Fred wrote:

> Since exploding wire technology is employed to
> maximize energy density, but is slow and cumbersome,
> why not a jet of electrolyte or metal to effect 
> kilojoule-megajoule energy discharge of capacitor
> banks?
> For instance a pool of  Lithium Hydroxide Electrolyte,
> D2 Gas, or D2O on top  of a Cathode Pool of Mercury
> with an insulation-sleeved Tungsten-Tipped Anode in a
> sealed chamber, triggered by electro-hydraulic
> actuation of a plunger-orifice device in the pool?

Well OK Fred, but we have to try it at your place.

M.




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Subject: Re: "Fire from Water" DVD is available
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Jed,

How does one write a review on Netflix? I don't see it quite as readily as 
I would on Amazon, for example. Perhaps I need to be a member?

s


At 09:02 AM 12/16/2005, you wrote:
>The video published by Infinite Energy, "Cold Fusion: Fire from Water" is 
>now available on DVD. I found it on Netflix. (I am tempted to give it a 
>five-star review but I am a co-author so I shouldn't.) It is published by 
>a weird company here:

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The U. K. MAGPIE fusion approach uses a circular array of exploding wires
to get closer to the temperature and energy density required for hot fusion.

http://dorland.pp.ph.ic.ac.uk/magpie/research/introduction.html


http://dorland.pp.ph.ic.ac.uk/magpie/experiments/Generator.html

"MAGPIE is a TeraWatt (1012 W) pulsed power generator used for dense z-pinch experiments 
in the Plasma Physics group at Imperial College, London."

The proposed Conductive Jet Switch if configured as multiple jets should serve
in place of the exploding wires.
The dish sprayer at the kitchen sink if immersed facing upward below the surface 
in a bowl of water illustrates the point rather nicely.

Fred 
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<HTML><HEAD>
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2802" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>The&nbsp;U. K. MAGPIE fusion approach uses a circular array of exploding wires</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>to get closer to the temperature and energy density required for hot fusion.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2><A href="http://dorland.pp.ph.ic.ac.uk/magpie/research/introduction.html">http://dorland.pp.ph.ic.ac.uk/magpie/research/introduction.html</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://dorland.pp.ph.ic.ac.uk/magpie/experiments/Generator.html">http://dorland.pp.ph.ic.ac.uk/magpie/experiments/Generator.html</A></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>"<FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>MAGPIE is a TeraWatt (10<SUP>12</SUP> W) pulsed power generator used for dense z-pinch experiments</FONT></FONT><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>&nbsp;</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>in the Plasma Physics group at Imperial College, London."</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The proposed Conductive Jet Switch if configured as multiple jets should serve</DIV>
<DIV>in place of the exploding wires.</DIV>
<DIV>The dish sprayer at the kitchen sink if immersed facing upward below the surface </DIV>
<DIV>in a bowl of water illustrates the point rather nicely.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Fred&nbsp;</DIV></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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At 09:18 pm 17/12/2005 -0700, Fred wrote:

> The U. K. MAGPIE fusion approach uses a 
> circular array of exploding wires
> to get closer to the temperature and 
> energy density required for hot fusion.
>
> http://dorland.pp.ph.ic.ac.uk/magpie/research/introduction.html
>
> http://dorland.pp.ph.ic.ac.uk/magpie/experiments/Generator.html


Thank you for those Fred. The web pages were 
nicely illustrated and easy to understand. 
It is ironic that Stringham is likely to beat 
Imperial to the punch. What a contrast between 
Imperial's behemoth and Stringham's miracle 
of miniaturisation.

Frank Grimer

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Subject: Re: Electrolysis of Ionic Hydrides-Deuterides?
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Electrolysis of the Ionic Hydrides or Deuterides results in the liberation
of hydrogen or deuterium at the Anode by loss of the electron from H-
or D- Anion.
Lithium Hydride (LiH) or Deuteride (LiD) forms at about 500 C and
melts with a vapor pressure of about 25 Torr at 680 C.

http://www.ucc.ie/ucc/depts/chem/dolchem/html/elem/elem001.html
"For example, on the electrolysis of fused lithium hydride, the hydrogen is liberated at the positive electrode 
(i.e. a negatively charged hydrogen ion is discharged), 
and not the negative electrode as is the case when water is electrolysed."
"Hydrogen is also evolved at the anode in the electrolysis of a solution of calcium hydride, in fused mixture of potassium chloride and lithium chloride. This indicates that the ionic structure of the lithium hydride is Li(+)H(-)."
Simpler and more energy efficient than electrolysis of H2O or D2O? Palladium Anode?
Fred
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<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Electrolysis of the Ionic Hydrides or Deuterides results in the liberation</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>of hydrogen or deuterium at the Anode by loss of the electron from H-</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>or D- Anion.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Lithium Hydride (LiH) or Deuteride (LiD) forms at about 500 C and</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>melts with a vapor pressure of about 25 Torr at 680 C.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://www.ucc.ie/ucc/depts/chem/dolchem/html/elem/elem001.html">http://www.ucc.ie/ucc/depts/chem/dolchem/html/elem/elem001.html</A></DIV>
<P>"For example, on the electrolysis of fused lithium hydride, the hydrogen is liberated at the positive electrode </P>
<P>(i.e. a negatively charged hydrogen ion is discharged), </P>
<P>and not the negative electrode as is the case when water is electrolysed."</P>
<P>"Hydrogen is also evolved at the anode in the electrolysis of a solution of calcium hydride, in fused mixture of potassium chloride and lithium chloride. This indicates that the ionic structure of the lithium hydride is Li(+)H(-)."</P>
<P>Simpler and more energy efficient than electrolysis of H2O or D2O? Palladium Anode?</P>
<P>Fred</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P></DIV></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8--


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 18 16:25:08 2005
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hohlrauml6d netscape.net wrote:

> I guess the axiom of "any publicity is good pubicity" applies in this 
> Hustler interview of Dr. Steven Greer:
>
> http://www.disclosureproject.org/bassiorinterview.htm
> ___________________________________________________
> Try the New Netscape Mail Today!
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What naked ladies, I've been ripped off. Just kidding. A mate of mine 
wrote a book on UFO's that is a good read. See:
Alien Intrusion by Gary Bates.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0890514356/qid=1134951746/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-8901916-1580103?n=507846&s=books&v=glance

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 18 18:13:35 2005
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You don't get Hustler magazine downunder?!?  Gee, first you let them 
take your weapons . . . now your gun:-)

http://www.hustler.com/v5/?CLICK=461,1,Hustler,

-----Original Message-----
From: Wesley Bruce

What naked ladies, I've been ripped off.
___________________________________________________
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 18 20:17:30 2005
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Nov. 1, 2005 "What Really Happened with Cold Fusion, and Why Is It Coming 
Back?"
International Congress on Nanotechnology in San Francisco, Calif.

Requires Windows Media Player
http://interface.audiovideoweb.com/lnk/ca25win25198/ICNT2005/2005KrivitS-ICNT2005.wmv/play.asx



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Is there anyone on V that is proficient with Photoshop or Paintshop that 
can assist New Energy Institute with a small task?

Please reply off-list.


Steven B. Krivit
Editor, New Energy Times
Executive Director, New Energy Institute Inc.

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File is not a download, it's a stream,  17 Minutes.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 19 00:03:41 2005
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At 11:24 am 19/12/2005 +1100, Wesley wrote:
> hohlrauml6d netscape.net wrote:
>
>> I guess the axiom of "any publicity is good publicity" applies in this 
>> Hustler interview of Dr. Steven Greer:
>>
>> http://www.disclosureproject.org/bassiorinterview.htm
>> ___________________________________________________
>> Try the New Netscape Mail Today!
>> Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List
>> http://mail.netscape.com
>>
> What naked ladies, I've been ripped off. Just kidding. 
> A mate of mine wrote a book on UFO's that is a good read. 
> See: Alien Intrusion by Gary Bates.
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0890514356/qid=1134951746/sr=8-1/
> ref=pd_bbs_1/102-8901916-1580103?n=507846&s=books&v=glance


see also, http://tinyurl.com/bt72c if you are lazy like me and can't 
be bothered to cut and paste.  8-)

Out of curiosity I looked this up and was pleased to find that the 
book is not the usual kind of rubbish one gets about UFO's. What was
that apocryphal Chesterton quote? Ah yes, 

"He who does not believe in God will believe in anything." 

As one of the more intelligent reviewers commented.

"Do not be fooled. Get this book, read it, then get into the Bible, 
not UFO's. The TRUTH will make you free. The truth is JESUS not UFOs!"

Amen to that.  8-)

If UFOs are real - and personally I don't believe they are, then the
reviewers thesis that, 

   "This Bible aspect of demons MASQUERADING as 
    UFO Aliens is definitely on the right track." 

is a plausible one, especially in view of the many well authenticated
prophesies regarding the 3 days of darkness. These "Three Days" have been 
announced by many mystics; Bl.Anna-Maria Taigi and Padre Pio amongst
others.

A web search gives one more than one could ever want to know on the
subject, but the following excerpt is not untypical.

======================================================================= 
The whole earth will shake, heavenly bodies will be disturbed – 
(this will be the beginning of the Three Days). Every Demon, every evil 
spirit will be released from hell and allowed to roam the earth. 
Terrifying apparitions will take place. Many will die from sheer fright. 
Fire will rain forth from the sky, all large cities will be destroyed, 
poisonous gases will fill the air, cries and lamentations everywhere. 
The unbelievers will burn in the open like withered grass. The entire 
earth will be afflicted; it will look like a huge graveyard. 
=======================================================================

I hope you all have a good supply of holy candles and thick curtains.  ;-)

Cheers,

Frank Grimer


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Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

With the flurry of activity centered on Lithium Hydride and the 
seven known Lithium-Tin Compounds for Lithium Ion battery technology,
one wonders if Lithium Hydride or Deuteride dissolved 
in molten Tin could form a Li (x)H(y)Sn(z) phase that would
allow "plate out" of Hydrogen or Deuterium at the anode. 


Melting & Boiling Point of Lithium:

http://www.webelements.com/webelements/elements/text/Li/heat.html

Melting & Boiling Point of Tin:

http://www.webelements.com/webelements/elements/text/Sn/heat.html


Fred
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Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

<HTML><HEAD>
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2802" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>With the flurry of activity centered on Lithium Hydride and the </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>seven known Lithium-Tin Compounds for&nbsp;Lithium Ion&nbsp;battery technology,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>one wonders if Lithium Hydride or Deuteride dissolved </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>in molten Tin could form a Li (x)H(y)Sn(z) phase that would</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>allow "plate out" of Hydrogen or Deuterium at the anode.</FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Melting &amp; Boiling Point of Lithium:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2><A href="http://www.webelements.com/webelements/elements/text/Li/heat.html">http://www.webelements.com/webelements/elements/text/Li/heat.html</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Melting &amp; Boiling Point of Tin:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2><A href="http://www.webelements.com/webelements/elements/text/Sn/heat.html">http://www.webelements.com/webelements/elements/text/Sn/heat.html</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Fred</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8--


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A private message I received yesterday.

"You may want to check out the work of Liaw:
for example:
Liaw BY, Ding Y; Fusion Technol. 26T (1994) 63.
"Charging hydrogen into hydride-containing molten salts".
** Molten salt, Ni, hydrogen, excess heat, res+
Liaw et al have previously used a molten salt system to produce excess heat
(and even He) at Pd anodes in a LiCl-KCl salt melt (400 C) containing LiD;
now
they try a Ni anode and LiH. Several things go wrong, stainless steel
holders
corrode, the LiH gets used up so that the electrochemistry changes to that
for
the melt itself. The input power just to keep the melt molten is 26 W; they
detect some instances of about 0.5 W excess heat and regard this as
significant.

Clear observation by Liaw et al. [11] for 25 W of excess heat at greater
than 460oC during anodic deposition of D- ions onto a Pd anode from a molten
salt electrolyte. Excess power exceeded electrolysis input power by factor
of 15; power density was 627 W cm-3 Pd; duration of high power was 1 day, of
elevated power was 4 days. Power controlled by current density. Single
successful anode. (1990)"


----- Original Message ----- 
From: Frederick Sparber 
To: vortex-l
Sent: 12/19/2005 7:15:51 AM 
Subject: Re: Electrolysis of Ionic Hydrides-Deuterides?


With the flurry of activity centered on Lithium Hydride and the 
seven known Lithium-Tin Compounds for Lithium Ion battery technology,
one wonders if Lithium Hydride or Deuteride dissolved 
in molten Tin could form a Li (x)H(y)Sn(z) phase that would
allow "plate out" of Hydrogen or Deuterium at the anode. 


Melting & Boiling Point of Lithium:

http://www.webelements.com/webelements/elements/text/Li/heat.html

Melting & Boiling Point of Tin:

http://www.webelements.com/webelements/elements/text/Sn/heat.html


Fred
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Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

<HTML style="FONT-SIZE: x-small; FONT-FAMILY: MS Sans Serif"><HEAD>
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2802" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>A private message I received yesterday.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>"You may want to check out the work of Liaw:</DIV>
<DIV>for example:</DIV>
<DIV>Liaw BY, Ding Y; Fusion Technol. 26T (1994) 63.</DIV>
<DIV>"Charging hydrogen into hydride-containing molten salts".</DIV>
<DIV>** Molten salt, Ni, hydrogen, excess heat, res+</DIV>
<DIV>Liaw et al have previously used a molten salt system to produce excess heat</DIV>
<DIV>(and even He) at Pd anodes in a LiCl-KCl salt melt (400 C) containing LiD;</DIV>
<DIV>now</DIV>
<DIV>they try a Ni anode and LiH. Several things go wrong, stainless steel</DIV>
<DIV>holders</DIV>
<DIV>corrode, the LiH gets used up so that the electrochemistry changes to that</DIV>
<DIV>for</DIV>
<DIV>the melt itself. The input power just to keep the melt molten is 26 W; they</DIV>
<DIV>detect some instances of about 0.5 W excess heat and regard this as</DIV>
<DIV>significant.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Clear observation by Liaw et al. [11] for 25 W of excess heat at greater</DIV>
<DIV>than 460oC during anodic deposition of D- ions onto a Pd anode from a molten</DIV>
<DIV>salt electrolyte. Excess power exceeded electrolysis input power by factor</DIV>
<DIV>of 15; power density was 627 W cm-3 Pd; duration of high power was 1 day, of</DIV>
<DIV>elevated power was 4 days. Power controlled by current density. Single</DIV>
<DIV>successful anode. (1990)"</DIV></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=fjsparber earthlink.net href="mailto:fjsparber@earthlink.net">Frederick Sparber</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To: </B><A title=vortex-l eskimo.com href="mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com">vortex-l</A></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> 12/19/2005 7:15:51 AM </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Electrolysis of Ionic Hydrides-Deuterides?</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><FONT size=2>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>With the flurry of activity centered on Lithium Hydride and the </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>seven known Lithium-Tin Compounds for&nbsp;Lithium Ion&nbsp;battery technology,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>one wonders if Lithium Hydride or Deuteride dissolved </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>in molten Tin could form a Li (x)H(y)Sn(z) phase that would</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>allow "plate out" of Hydrogen or Deuterium at the anode.</FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Melting &amp; Boiling Point of Lithium:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2><A href="http://www.webelements.com/webelements/elements/text/Li/heat.html">http://www.webelements.com/webelements/elements/text/Li/heat.html</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Melting &amp; Boiling Point of Tin:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2><A href="http://www.webelements.com/webelements/elements/text/Sn/heat.html">http://www.webelements.com/webelements/elements/text/Sn/heat.html</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Fred</FONT></DIV></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8--


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 19 06:48:35 2005
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You must visit this site to see the image:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/12/051217010703.htm

"Observations of the effects of the resulting subsurface 
hydrides--hydrogen atoms with a partial negative charge--confirmed the 
existence of the stable sites, which had been predicted but previously 
had neither been deliberately assembled nor directly observed. The 
research was led by Paul S. Weiss, Distinguished Professor of Chemistry 
and Physics at Penn State."

One wonders if they could have made it glow using D2. <g>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 19 07:03:04 2005
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From: OrionWorks <orionworks charter.net>
Organization: OrionWorks
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Subject: Re: ZPE, Naked Women and UFOs
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 9:02:14 -0600
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> From: Grimer 

...

> Out of curiosity I looked this up and was pleased to
> find that the book is not the usual kind of rubbish one
> gets about UFO's.

"Usual kind of rubbish?"

Yes, those certainly are impartial perceptions.

In any case, I suspect Mr. Malloy will appreciate it.

> What was that apocryphal Chesterton quote? Ah yes, 
>
> "He who does not believe in God will believe in anything." 

How utterly hypocritical.

Actually, quite the opposite happens. In my view, this quote alone is an absolute gem in revealing just how narrow-minded certain sectors of society can become when they have come to the conclusion that their special brand of religion explains, absolutely, all forms of disquieting (and occasionally denied) phenomenon observed in the universe.

Stanley Kubrick's masterpiece "Dr. Strangelove" answered this conundrum far better than I can:

* * * * * * * *

Mandrake:

Jack... Jack, listen, tell me, ah... when did you first become, well, develop this theory.

Ripper:

Well, I ah, I I first became aware of it, Mandrake, during the physical act of love.

Mandrake:

sighs fearfully

Ripper:

Yes a profound sense of fatigue, a feeling of emptiness followed. Luckily I was able to interpret these feelings correctly: loss of essence.

* * * * * * * * *

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 19 08:15:33 2005
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Jack suffered from loss of Chi.  He would not have destroyed the world 
had he practiced Sexual ChiKong, sexual orgasm without ejaculation:

http://www.actionlove.com/cases/case8792.htm

Chi, BTW, is believed to be related to the ZPE, Orgone energy, etc. (by 
some).

-----Original Message-----
From: OrionWorks

Yes a profound sense of fatigue, a feeling of emptiness followed. 
Luckily I was
able to interpret these feelings correctly: loss of essence.
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 19 08:18:32 2005
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I think it highly unlikely that we have in this world aliens coexisting with
angels.  We either have aliens masquerading as angels, or fallen angels
masquerading as aliens.  I personally suspect the latter.

Then, there is also option three for those who prefer it, that both angels
and aliens are imaginary.  It seems that one of these three choices must be
true.  Is there somebody out there able to pull enough facts together to
prove the truth in this matter?

Jeff


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 19 09:21:34 2005
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At 09:02 am 19/12/2005 -0600, you wrote:

> Stanley Kubrick's masterpiece "Dr. Strangelove" 
> answered this conundrum far better than I can:
>
> * * * * * * * *

Yeah - but who is Ripper? You think it's me.
But maybe it's you. Only time will tell.     8-)

Cheers,

Frank

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 19 09:35:17 2005
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At 11:17 am 19/12/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>I think it highly unlikely that we have in this world aliens coexisting with
>angels.  We either have aliens masquerading as angels, or fallen angels
>masquerading as aliens.  I personally suspect the latter.
>
>Then, there is also option three for those who prefer it, that both angels
>and aliens are imaginary.  It seems that one of these three choices must be
>true.  Is there somebody out there able to pull enough facts together to
>prove the truth in this matter?
>
>Jeff


There's plenty of evidence of the existence of diabolical
possession in the modern world. Trouble is, people just 
don't want to accept it. They would rather bury their heads
in the sand and thrust all ideas of the existence of a hell
of eternal pain and suffering, and the idea they may end up
there, as far away as possible.

     "Yesterday upon the stair
     I met a man who wasn't there. 
     He wasn't there again today.  
     I wish that man would go away." 

Frank


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 19 09:48:00 2005
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Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 12:46:07 -0500
From: Harry Veeder <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: ZPE, Naked Women and UFOs
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Grimer wrote:

> At 11:17 am 19/12/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>> I think it highly unlikely that we have in this world aliens coexisting with
>> angels.  We either have aliens masquerading as angels, or fallen angels
>> masquerading as aliens.  I personally suspect the latter.
>> 
>> Then, there is also option three for those who prefer it, that both angels
>> and aliens are imaginary.  It seems that one of these three choices must be
>> true.  Is there somebody out there able to pull enough facts together to
>> prove the truth in this matter?
>> 
>> Jeff
> 
> 
> There's plenty of evidence of the existence of diabolical
> possession in the modern world. Trouble is, people just
> don't want to accept it. They would rather bury their heads
> in the sand and thrust all ideas of the existence of a hell
> of eternal pain and suffering, and the idea they may end up
> there, as far away as possible.
> 
> "Yesterday upon the stair
> I met a man who wasn't there.
> He wasn't there again today.
> I wish that man would go away."
> 
> Frank
> 
> 

Ok, for sake of argument let's accept the existence of diabolical
possession in the modern world.

Now what?

Harry

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From: "Jones Beene" <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
To: "vortex-l" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <410-2200512119143253747 earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Electrolysis of Ionic Hydrides-Deuterides?
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 09:48:28 -0800
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This may be as good a Mills' hydrino confirmation as any of his own =
experiments ;-)

Jones

  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Frederick Sparber=20
  To: vortex-l=20
  Sent: Monday, December 19, 2005 6:32 AM
  Subject: Re: Electrolysis of Ionic Hydrides-Deuterides?


  A private message I received yesterday.

  "You may want to check out the work of Liaw:
  for example:
  Liaw BY, Ding Y; Fusion Technol. 26T (1994) 63.
  "Charging hydrogen into hydride-containing molten salts".
  ** Molten salt, Ni, hydrogen, excess heat, res+
  Liaw et al have previously used a molten salt system to produce excess =
heat
  (and even He) at Pd anodes in a LiCl-KCl salt melt (400 C) containing =
LiD;
  now
  they try a Ni anode and LiH. Several things go wrong, stainless steel
  holders
  corrode, the LiH gets used up so that the electrochemistry changes to =
that
  for
  the melt itself. The input power just to keep the melt molten is 26 W; =
they
  detect some instances of about 0.5 W excess heat and regard this as
  significant.

  Clear observation by Liaw et al. [11] for 25 W of excess heat at =
greater
  than 460oC during anodic deposition of D- ions onto a Pd anode from a =
molten
  salt electrolyte. Excess power exceeded electrolysis input power by =
factor
  of 15; power density was 627 W cm-3 Pd; duration of high power was 1 =
day, of
  elevated power was 4 days. Power controlled by current density. Single
  successful anode. (1990)"


    ----- Original Message -----=20
    From: Frederick Sparber=20
    To: vortex-l
    Sent: 12/19/2005 7:15:51 AM=20
    Subject: Re: Electrolysis of Ionic Hydrides-Deuterides?


    With the flurry of activity centered on Lithium Hydride and the=20
    seven known Lithium-Tin Compounds for Lithium Ion battery =
technology,
    one wonders if Lithium Hydride or Deuteride dissolved=20
    in molten Tin could form a Li (x)H(y)Sn(z) phase that would
    allow "plate out" of Hydrogen or Deuterium at the anode.=20


    Melting & Boiling Point of Lithium:

    http://www.webelements.com/webelements/elements/text/Li/heat.html

    Melting & Boiling Point of Tin:

    http://www.webelements.com/webelements/elements/text/Sn/heat.html


    Fred
------=_NextPart_000_0081_01C60481.5D1A3A10
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML style=3D"FONT-SIZE: x-small; FONT-FAMILY: MS Sans Serif"><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2802" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>This may be as good a Mills' =
hydrino&nbsp;confirmation as=20
any of his own experiments ;-)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>Jones</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3Dfjsparber earthlink.net=20
  href=3D"mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net">Frederick Sparber</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dvortex-l eskimo.com=20
  href=3D"mailto:vortex-l eskimo.com">vortex-l</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, December 19, 2005 =
6:32=20
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Electrolysis of =
Ionic=20
  Hydrides-Deuterides?</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV>
  <DIV>
  <DIV>A private message I received yesterday.</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>"You may want to check out the work of Liaw:</DIV>
  <DIV>for example:</DIV>
  <DIV>Liaw BY, Ding Y; Fusion Technol. 26T (1994) 63.</DIV>
  <DIV>"Charging hydrogen into hydride-containing molten salts".</DIV>
  <DIV>** Molten salt, Ni, hydrogen, excess heat, res+</DIV>
  <DIV>Liaw et al have previously used a molten salt system to produce =
excess=20
  heat</DIV>
  <DIV>(and even He) at Pd anodes in a LiCl-KCl salt melt (400 C) =
containing=20
  LiD;</DIV>
  <DIV>now</DIV>
  <DIV>they try a Ni anode and LiH. Several things go wrong, stainless=20
  steel</DIV>
  <DIV>holders</DIV>
  <DIV>corrode, the LiH gets used up so that the electrochemistry =
changes to=20
  that</DIV>
  <DIV>for</DIV>
  <DIV>the melt itself. The input power just to keep the melt molten is =
26 W;=20
  they</DIV>
  <DIV>detect some instances of about 0.5 W excess heat and regard this =
as</DIV>
  <DIV>significant.</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Clear observation by Liaw et al. [11] for 25 W of excess heat at=20
  greater</DIV>
  <DIV>than 460oC during anodic deposition of D- ions onto a Pd anode =
from a=20
  molten</DIV>
  <DIV>salt electrolyte. Excess power exceeded electrolysis input power =
by=20
  factor</DIV>
  <DIV>of 15; power density was 627 W cm-3 Pd; duration of high power =
was 1 day,=20
  of</DIV>
  <DIV>elevated power was 4 days. Power controlled by current density.=20
  Single</DIV>
  <DIV>successful anode. (1990)"</DIV></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV></DIV></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE=20
  style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid">
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
    <DIV=20
    style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
    <A title=3Dfjsparber earthlink.net=20
    href=3D"mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net">Frederick Sparber</A> </DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To: </B><A =
title=3Dvortex-l eskimo.com=20
    href=3D"mailto:vortex-l eskimo.com">vortex-l</A></DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> 12/19/2005 7:15:51 AM =
</DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Electrolysis of =
Ionic=20
    Hydrides-Deuterides?</DIV>
    <DIV><BR></DIV><FONT size=3D2>
    <DIV><FONT face=3D"MS Sans Serif" size=3D2>With the flurry of =
activity centered=20
    on Lithium Hydride and the </FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3D"MS Sans Serif" size=3D2>seven known Lithium-Tin =
Compounds=20
    for&nbsp;Lithium Ion&nbsp;battery technology,</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3D"MS Sans Serif" size=3D2>one wonders if Lithium =
Hydride or=20
    Deuteride dissolved </FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3D"MS Sans Serif" size=3D2>in molten Tin could form =
a Li=20
    (x)H(y)Sn(z) phase that would</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3D"MS Sans Serif" size=3D2>allow "plate out" of =
Hydrogen or=20
    Deuterium at the anode.</FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3D"MS Sans Serif" size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3D"MS Sans Serif" size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3D"MS Sans Serif" size=3D2>Melting &amp; Boiling =
Point of=20
    Lithium:</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3D"MS Sans Serif" size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3D"MS Sans Serif" size=3D2><A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.webelements.com/webelements/elements/text/Li/heat.html=
">http://www.webelements.com/webelements/elements/text/Li/heat.html</A></=
FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3D"MS Sans Serif" size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3D"MS Sans Serif" size=3D2>Melting &amp; Boiling =
Point of=20
    Tin:</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3D"MS Sans Serif" size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3D"MS Sans Serif" size=3D2><A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.webelements.com/webelements/elements/text/Sn/heat.html=
">http://www.webelements.com/webelements/elements/text/Sn/heat.html</A></=
FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3D"MS Sans Serif" size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3D"MS Sans Serif" size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3D"MS Sans Serif"=20
size=3D2>Fred</FONT></DIV></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>=


------=_NextPart_000_0081_01C60481.5D1A3A10--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 19 10:01:18 2005
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Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 18:00:38 +0000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Grimer <f.grimer grimer2.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Palladium Hydride Image
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At 09:48 am 19/12/2005 -0500, the pseudonym "hohlraum" wrote:
>You must visit this site to see the image:
>
>http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/12/051217010703.htm
>
>"Observations of the effects of the resulting subsurface 
>hydrides--hydrogen atoms with a partial negative charge--confirmed the 
>existence of the stable sites, which had been predicted but previously 
>had neither been deliberately assembled nor directly observed. The 
>research was led by Paul S. Weiss, Distinguished Professor of Chemistry 
>and Physics at Penn State."
>
>One wonders if they could have made it glow using D2. <g>


Many a true word spoken in jest. It would certainly be interesting
to carry out the same experiments with Deuterium. After all, "under
the surface" implies that it is at some degree of negative B-atm. 
pressure as does the phrase, "the positive charge of palladium atoms 
above them increased,"

One could get some quantitative measure of any CF by writing hundreds
of full stops and observing any changes with time.

One could use protium as a control.

Frank

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Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 18:22:16 +0000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Grimer <f.grimer grimer2.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: ZPE, Naked Women and UFOs
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At 12:46 pm 19/12/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>Grimer wrote:
>
>> At 11:17 am 19/12/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>>> I think it highly unlikely that we have in this world aliens coexisting with
>>> angels.  We either have aliens masquerading as angels, or fallen angels
>>> masquerading as aliens.  I personally suspect the latter.
>>> 
>>> Then, there is also option three for those who prefer it, that both angels
>>> and aliens are imaginary.  It seems that one of these three choices must be
>>> true.  Is there somebody out there able to pull enough facts together to
>>> prove the truth in this matter?
>>> 
>>> Jeff
>> 
>> 
>> There's plenty of evidence of the existence of diabolical
>> possession in the modern world. Trouble is, people just
>> don't want to accept it. They would rather bury their heads
>> in the sand and thrust all ideas of the existence of a hell
>> of eternal pain and suffering, and the idea they may end up
>> there, as far away as possible.
>> 
>> "Yesterday upon the stair
>> I met a man who wasn't there.
>> He wasn't there again today.
>> I wish that man would go away."
>> 
>> Frank
>> 
>> 
>
>Ok, for sake of argument let's accept the existence of diabolical
>possession in the modern world.
>
>Now what?
>
>Harry

"Now" we have "fallen angels masquerading as aliens" as Jeff says.

If you "accept the existence of diabolical possession", 
then you have accepted the existence of fallen angels
who not only can possess people but can also appear in both
human and animal form. I can't see your problem, Harry.  8-) 

Frank

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I can't tell if these discussions are humor masquerading as reality or 
reality masquerading as humor. Trying to relate the spiritual world 
(angels fallen or otherwise) and the physical world outside of our 
little planet (aliens) is the height of humor. Understanding is not 
improved by relating two things about which we are almost totally 
ignorant.  The physical existence of intelligent life-forms on other 
planets, some of whom visit occasionally, has been demonstrated by 
observation and simple logic.  The existence of the spirit reality has 
also been demonstrated, although the explanations offered by most 
churches are way off the mark.  Why try to relate the two realities?

Regards,
Ed

Grimer wrote:

> At 12:46 pm 19/12/2005 -0500, you wrote:
> 
>>Grimer wrote:
>>
>>
>>>At 11:17 am 19/12/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>>>
>>>>I think it highly unlikely that we have in this world aliens coexisting with
>>>>angels.  We either have aliens masquerading as angels, or fallen angels
>>>>masquerading as aliens.  I personally suspect the latter.
>>>>
>>>>Then, there is also option three for those who prefer it, that both angels
>>>>and aliens are imaginary.  It seems that one of these three choices must be
>>>>true.  Is there somebody out there able to pull enough facts together to
>>>>prove the truth in this matter?
>>>>
>>>>Jeff
>>>
>>>
>>>There's plenty of evidence of the existence of diabolical
>>>possession in the modern world. Trouble is, people just
>>>don't want to accept it. They would rather bury their heads
>>>in the sand and thrust all ideas of the existence of a hell
>>>of eternal pain and suffering, and the idea they may end up
>>>there, as far away as possible.
>>>
>>>"Yesterday upon the stair
>>>I met a man who wasn't there.
>>>He wasn't there again today.
>>>I wish that man would go away."
>>>
>>>Frank
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Ok, for sake of argument let's accept the existence of diabolical
>>possession in the modern world.
>>
>>Now what?
>>
>>Harry
> 
> 
> "Now" we have "fallen angels masquerading as aliens" as Jeff says.
> 
> If you "accept the existence of diabolical possession", 
> then you have accepted the existence of fallen angels
> who not only can possess people but can also appear in both
> human and animal form. I can't see your problem, Harry.  8-) 
> 
> Frank
> 
> 

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See below!


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 22:35:07 -0600
From: Brian Whatcott <betwys1 >
Reply-To: Forum for Physics Educators <PHYS-L list1.ucc.nau.edu>
To: PHYS-L LISTS.NAU.EDU
Subject: Electroluminescence Demo

Mix 1 tablespoon baking soda in 1 pint water.
Cut two electrodes from an aluminum pie dish
Place the elctrodes on opposite sides of a jam-jar.

Connect the electrolytic cell in series with a 75 watt lamp
to a 120 volt AC line supply - or better, through a 1:1
isolation transformer.      Care!

The light quickly dims.
In a dark room, the electrodes glow.

See  <http://home.earthlink.net/~lenyr/borax.htm>

What is the mechanism?


Brian Whatcott    Altus OK    Eureka!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 19 11:01:21 2005
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From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
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Subject: RE: ZPE, Naked Women and UFOs
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 14:07:38 -0500
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The answer is simple, Ed.

"Entertainment is more important than information."

You can quote me on that.

K.

-----Original Message-----
From: Edmund Storms [mailto:storms2 ix.netcom.com]
Sent: Monday, December 19, 2005 1:43 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: ZPE, Naked Women and UFOs


I can't tell if these discussions are humor masquerading as reality or 
reality masquerading as humor. Trying to relate the spiritual world 
(angels fallen or otherwise) and the physical world outside of our 
little planet (aliens) is the height of humor. Understanding is not 
improved by relating two things about which we are almost totally 
ignorant.  The physical existence of intelligent life-forms on other 
planets, some of whom visit occasionally, has been demonstrated by 
observation and simple logic.  The existence of the spirit reality has 
also been demonstrated, although the explanations offered by most 
churches are way off the mark.  Why try to relate the two realities?

Regards,
Ed

Grimer wrote:

> At 12:46 pm 19/12/2005 -0500, you wrote:
> 
>>Grimer wrote:
>>
>>
>>>At 11:17 am 19/12/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>>>
>>>>I think it highly unlikely that we have in this world aliens coexisting with
>>>>angels.  We either have aliens masquerading as angels, or fallen angels
>>>>masquerading as aliens.  I personally suspect the latter.
>>>>
>>>>Then, there is also option three for those who prefer it, that both angels
>>>>and aliens are imaginary.  It seems that one of these three choices must be
>>>>true.  Is there somebody out there able to pull enough facts together to
>>>>prove the truth in this matter?
>>>>
>>>>Jeff
>>>
>>>
>>>There's plenty of evidence of the existence of diabolical
>>>possession in the modern world. Trouble is, people just
>>>don't want to accept it. They would rather bury their heads
>>>in the sand and thrust all ideas of the existence of a hell
>>>of eternal pain and suffering, and the idea they may end up
>>>there, as far away as possible.
>>>
>>>"Yesterday upon the stair
>>>I met a man who wasn't there.
>>>He wasn't there again today.
>>>I wish that man would go away."
>>>
>>>Frank
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Ok, for sake of argument let's accept the existence of diabolical
>>possession in the modern world.
>>
>>Now what?
>>
>>Harry
> 
> 
> "Now" we have "fallen angels masquerading as aliens" as Jeff says.
> 
> If you "accept the existence of diabolical possession", 
> then you have accepted the existence of fallen angels
> who not only can possess people but can also appear in both
> human and animal form. I can't see your problem, Harry.  8-) 
> 
> Frank
> 
> 


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From: leaking pen <itsatrap gmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: weird glow from aluminum in baking soda solution
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first thought, id have to do it to match, but the color of the glow is
similar to burning baking soda.  it could simply be the layer on the
alluminum valence jumping.

On 12/19/05, William Beaty <billb eskimo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> See below!
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 22:35:07 -0600
> From: Brian Whatcott <betwys1 >
> Reply-To: Forum for Physics Educators <PHYS-L list1.ucc.nau.edu>
> To: PHYS-L LISTS.NAU.EDU
> Subject: Electroluminescence Demo
>
> Mix 1 tablespoon baking soda in 1 pint water.
> Cut two electrodes from an aluminum pie dish
> Place the elctrodes on opposite sides of a jam-jar.
>
> Connect the electrolytic cell in series with a 75 watt lamp
> to a 120 volt AC line supply - or better, through a 1:1
> isolation transformer.      Care!
>
> The light quickly dims.
> In a dark room, the electrodes glow.
>
> See  <http://home.earthlink.net/~lenyr/borax.htm>
>
> What is the mechanism?
>
>
> Brian Whatcott    Altus OK    Eureka!
>
>


--
"Monsieur l'abb=E9, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to ma=
ke
it possible for you to continue to write"  Voltaire

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first thought, id have to do it to match, but the color of the glow is simi=
lar to burning baking soda.&nbsp; it could simply be the layer on the allum=
inum valence jumping.<br><br>
<div><span class=3D"gmail_quote">On 12/19/05, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername"=
>William Beaty</b> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:billb eskimo.com">billb@eskimo.com=
</a>&gt; wrote:</span>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid"><br><br>See below!<br><br><br>--=
-------- Forwarded message ----------<br>Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 22:35:07 -0=
600
<br>From: Brian Whatcott &lt;betwys1 &gt;<br>Reply-To: Forum for Physics Ed=
ucators &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:PHYS-L list1.ucc.nau.edu">PHYS-L@list1.ucc.na=
u.edu</a>&gt;<br>To: <a href=3D"mailto:PHYS-L LISTS.NAU.EDU">PHYS-L@LISTS.N=
AU.EDU
</a><br>Subject: Electroluminescence Demo<br><br>Mix 1 tablespoon baking so=
da in 1 pint water.<br>Cut two electrodes from an aluminum pie dish<br>Plac=
e the elctrodes on opposite sides of a jam-jar.<br><br>Connect the electrol=
ytic cell in series with a 75 watt lamp
<br>to a 120 volt AC line supply - or better, through a 1:1<br>isolation tr=
ansformer.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Care!<br><br>The light quickl=
y dims.<br>In a dark room, the electrodes glow.<br><br>See&nbsp;&nbsp;&lt;<=
a href=3D"http://home.earthlink.net/~lenyr/borax.htm">
http://home.earthlink.net/~lenyr/borax.htm</a>&gt;<br><br>What is the mecha=
nism?<br><br><br>Brian Whatcott&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Altus OK&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;Eureka!<br><br></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- =
<br>&quot;Monsieur l'abb=E9, I detest what you write, but I would give my l=
ife to make it possible for you to continue to write&quot;&nbsp;&nbsp;Volta=
ire=20

------=_Part_20479_31758824.1135020820880--

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From: Horace Heffner <hheffner mtaonline.net>
Subject: Re: weird glow from aluminum in baking soda solution
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On Dec 19, 2005, at 9:50 AM, William Beaty wrote:
>
> See  <http://home.earthlink.net/~lenyr/borax.htm>
>
> What is the mechanism?

This was discussed here in 2004 and prior years.  For some background  
see:

    <http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/BlueAEH.pdf>

My opinion is the glow is probably caused by recombination and some  
other effects noted in the above pdf.  Could of course be quite  
wrong.  Could be a hole-electron annihilation at the surface of a  
film deposited on the electrode for example.   It could be hole  
conducting metals, e.g. Zn, would need no film at all.  Could also be  
the mechanism for CaO or phosphate electrolytes differs from the  
above too.  I did not follow up on this to pin it down.  I diverted  
my attention to some exiting inertial drive projects for a long time  
and had to interrupt even that for personal reasons for many months.   
I terribly miss doing scientific things.

Regards,

Horace Heffner

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On Dec 19, 2005, at 9:50 AM, William Beaty wrote:
>
> See  <http://home.earthlink.net/~lenyr/borax.htm>
>
> What is the mechanism?

As food for thought, you might also check out:

    <http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/BlueAEH.pdf>

Even though the blue glow is an anode effect, proton involvement is  
highly likely.  There are some notes in the above pdf about proton  
tunneling that may be relevant.  A wild speculation is that free  
protons are stripped of electrons at the anode, probably have the  
highest concentration there, and may in rarely and briefly existing  
pairs have the ability to tunnel as pairs into seed locations, like  
free electrons.

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Yeah, but it's not the aliens, angels and demons who are entertaining 
us . . . it's vice versa!

-----Original Message-----
From: Keith Nagel

The answer is simple, Ed.

"Entertainment is more important than information."

You can quote me on that.
___________________________________________________
Try the New Netscape Mail Today!
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Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 16:07:32 -0500
From: Harry Veeder <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: ZPE, Naked Women and UFOs
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Then if you like to entertain then you are heaven...if not you are in hell.

Harry

hohlrauml6d netscape.net wrote:

> Yeah, but it's not the aliens, angels and demons who are entertaining
> us . . . it's vice versa!
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Keith Nagel
> 
> The answer is simple, Ed.
> 
> "Entertainment is more important than information."
> 
> You can quote me on that.
> ___________________________________________________
> Try the New Netscape Mail Today!
> Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List
> http://mail.netscape.com
> 

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IMO, a better question is, why distinguish them?  Our galaxy is so old 
and the Earth is so young that it is likely that many levels exist.

Here is a very interesting article on the Fermi Paradox:

http://arxiv.org/abs/physics/0512062



-----Original Message-----
From: Edmund Storms

 Why try to relate the two realities? 
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 19 13:12:27 2005
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Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 16:10:22 -0500
From: Harry Veeder <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: ZPE, Naked Women and UFOs
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I mean...if you like to entertain then you are in heaven...if not then you
are in hell.

Harry

Harry Veeder wrote:

> Then if you like to entertain then you are heaven...if not you are in hell.
> 
> Harry
> 
> hohlrauml6d netscape.net wrote:
> 
>> Yeah, but it's not the aliens, angels and demons who are entertaining
>> us . . . it's vice versa!
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Keith Nagel
>> 
>> The answer is simple, Ed.
>> 
>> "Entertainment is more important than information."
>> 
>> You can quote me on that.
>> ___________________________________________________
>> Try the New Netscape Mail Today!
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> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 19 13:23:38 2005
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Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 21:22:56 +0000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Grimer <f.grimer grimer2.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: ZPE, Naked Women and UFOs
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At 04:10 pm 19/12/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>IMO, a better question is, why distinguish them?  Our galaxy is so old 
>and the Earth is so young that it is likely that many levels exist.

I fear you are allowing yourself to be overawed by mere time and space.
But GKC put it far better than I could.

====================================================================
But modern thought also hit my second human tradition. 
It went against the fairy feeling about strict limits and conditions. 
The one thing it loved to talk about was expansion and largeness. 
Herbert Spencer would have been greatly annoyed if any one had
called him an imperialist, and therefore it is highly regrettable
that nobody did.  But he was an imperialist of the lowest type. 
He popularized this contemptible notion that the size of the solar
system ought to over-awe the spiritual dogma of man.  Why should
a man surrender his dignity to the solar system any more than to
a whale?  If mere size proves that man is not the image of God,
then a whale may be the image of God; a somewhat formless image;
what one might call an impressionist portrait.  It is quite futile
to argue that man is small compared to the cosmos; for man was
always small compared to the nearest tree.  But Herbert Spencer,
in his headlong imperialism, would insist that we had in some
way been conquered and annexed by the astronomical universe. 
He spoke about men and their ideals exactly as the most insolent
Unionist talks about the Irish and their ideals.  He turned mankind
into a small nationality.  And his evil influence can be seen even
in the most spirited and honourable of later scientific authors;
notably in the early romances of Mr. H.G.Wells. Many moralists
have in an exaggerated way represented the earth as wicked. 
But Mr. Wells and his school made the heavens wicked. 
We should lift up our eyes to the stars from whence would come
our ruin.
====================================================================

Frank

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 19 13:26:22 2005
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Subject: Good News on Solar
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 15:25:51 -0600
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The latest EE Times ( Dec. 12) has a cover article on T.J. Rodgers and
Cypress Semiconductors getting into solar power , big-time.
They bought a former disk-drive plant in Manila, Phillipines to crank
out wafers.  "We fully anticipate the Philippines fab being capable of 
turning out the equivalent of 100 megawatts a year" a spokeman said.
They hope to up the efficiency and knock prices down to $1.50 a watt.

High oil prices could be the best thing that ever happened to
alternative energy.  I hope such prices continue for several years so as
to establish
alternatives firmly - in some cases, with wind and solar power,  the
equipment won't get ripped out just because oil prices decline.  The oil
companies
and OPEC nations will get stuck competing against decentralized sources
that won't go away.

Heck, all we really need is a bit more electricity per year and some
other way to power automoblies and we're done with terrorists,  Middle
East instability,
much of the trade deficit,  and a host of other problems.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 19 13:34:28 2005
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: weird glow from aluminum in baking soda solution
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 08:33:05 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  William Beaty's message of Mon, 19 Dec 2005 10:50:46
-0800 (PST):
Hi,
[snip]
>Mix 1 tablespoon baking soda in 1 pint water.
>Cut two electrodes from an aluminum pie dish
>Place the elctrodes on opposite sides of a jam-jar.
>
>Connect the electrolytic cell in series with a 75 watt lamp
>to a 120 volt AC line supply - or better, through a 1:1
>isolation transformer.      Care!
>
>The light quickly dims.
>In a dark room, the electrodes glow.
>
>See  <http://home.earthlink.net/~lenyr/borax.htm>
>
>What is the mechanism?
[snip]
If the electrodes do indeed form diodes, and the glow occurs
during reverse bias, then that is when a high voltage falls across
a very thin chemical layer. The electron leakage current could be
sufficiently accelerated to produce energetic electrons capable of
exciting high energy (i.e. blue) transitions within the atoms.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 19 13:39:46 2005
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Yes, I understand your point and should expand on mine.  I see all that 
is as being continuous and it doesn't depend on what 'is' is <g>.  We 
just don't see it All.

BTW, just what is it that separates your Beta-atmosphere densities?  
What keeps the pressure different inside verses outside?

-----Original Message-----
From: Grimer

I fear you are allowing yourself to be overawed by mere time and space.
But GKC put it far better than I could.

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 19 13:39:55 2005
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Subject: RE: Nekkid Space Women
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 Has anybody read "The Hair of the Alien"?  It's really spooky.  I was
wondering if anybody had anything skeptical to say about its DNA
results.

-----Original Message-----
From: Grimer [mailto:f.grimer grimer2.freeserve.co.uk] 
Sent: Monday, December 19, 2005 4:23 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: ZPE, Naked Women and UFOs

At 04:10 pm 19/12/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>IMO, a better question is, why distinguish them?  Our galaxy is so old 
>and the Earth is so young that it is likely that many levels exist.

I fear you are allowing yourself to be overawed by mere time and space.
But GKC put it far better than I could.

====================================================================
But modern thought also hit my second human tradition. 
It went against the fairy feeling about strict limits and conditions. 
The one thing it loved to talk about was expansion and largeness. 
Herbert Spencer would have been greatly annoyed if any one had called
him an imperialist, and therefore it is highly regrettable that nobody
did.  But he was an imperialist of the lowest type. 
He popularized this contemptible notion that the size of the solar
system ought to over-awe the spiritual dogma of man.  Why should a man
surrender his dignity to the solar system any more than to a whale?  If
mere size proves that man is not the image of God, then a whale may be
the image of God; a somewhat formless image; what one might call an
impressionist portrait.  It is quite futile to argue that man is small
compared to the cosmos; for man was always small compared to the nearest
tree.  But Herbert Spencer, in his headlong imperialism, would insist
that we had in some way been conquered and annexed by the astronomical
universe. 
He spoke about men and their ideals exactly as the most insolent
Unionist talks about the Irish and their ideals.  He turned mankind into
a small nationality.  And his evil influence can be seen even in the
most spirited and honourable of later scientific authors; notably in the
early romances of Mr. H.G.Wells. Many moralists have in an exaggerated
way represented the earth as wicked. 
But Mr. Wells and his school made the heavens wicked. 
We should lift up our eyes to the stars from whence would come our ruin.
====================================================================

Frank

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 19 14:03:08 2005
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> From: hohlrauml6d

...

> Jack suffered from loss of Chi.  He would not have
> destroyed the world had he practiced Sexual ChiKong,
> sexual orgasm without ejaculation:
> 
> http://www.actionlove.com/cases/case8792.htm
> 
> Chi, BTW, is believed to be related to the ZPE,
> Orgone energy, etc. (by some).

All very interesting comments from Grimer, revtec, Harry, Hohlraum, and Mr. Storms.

What a ruckus!

But getting back to the Jack's unfortunate "loss of CHI":

There's a considerable database of literature that has been compiled on this subject. Anyone curious enough to look into it is likely to quickly discover that Eastern knowledge has explored the dimension of human sexuality to a highly evolved level of sophistication. Eastern understanding of the expression of our sexuality far surpasses western knowledge, the latter which, in truth, is downright prudish in comparison.

Could there exist a ZPE component in our CHI? An interesting thought indeed! ;-)

Alas, had Jack only known!

Dare to explore!

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

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For a long time I have been wanting to upload this paper: 
Lautzenhiser, T. and D. Phelps, Cold Fusion: Report on a Recent Amoco 
Experiment. 1990, Amoco Production Company. This is an important part 
of the early history of cold fusion. But I could not find a complete, 
clean copy. I finally found one. The paper is here:

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/Lautzenhiscoldfusion.pdf

- Jed

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Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
<body>
For a long time I have been wanting to upload this paper: Lautzenhiser,
T. and D. Phelps, <i>Cold Fusion: Report on a Recent Amoco
Experiment</i>. 1990, Amoco Production Company. This is an important part
of the early history of cold fusion. But I could not find a complete,
clean copy. I finally found one. The paper is here:<br><br>
<a href="http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/Lautzenhiscoldfusion.pdf" eudora="autourl">
http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/Lautzenhiscoldfusion.pdf<br><br>
</a>- Jed<br>
</body>
</html>

--=====================_28436593==.ALT--


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 19 14:37:25 2005
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Subject: Re: weird glow from aluminum in baking soda solution
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 14:36:51 -0800
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Somewhat surprising that Robin didn't mention hydrinos.

If there is something beyond a mundane explanation for this, then 
obviously Horace's "blue glow" fits the situation - yet the AEH 
has features in common with the hydrino-theory. Also - as 
regarding borax - the 'alternate' hydrino theory of Arie de Geuss 
suggests borax is a good catalyst for redundant ground states - 
whereas Mills missed that.

Even if it would fit this situation better, the best evidence for 
the AEH - in a working device is (or rather - would be, if we 
could trust the results):
http://jlnlabs.imars.com/mahg/tests/mahg2a.htm

After such an inexplicable delay, it is becomming pretty clear 
that measurement errors were made in the MAHG, and that George 
Holz's explanation for the error is probably accurate -despite 
continuing denials from Moller.

However, if some OU were present, the AEH would seem to fit the 
MAHG circumstances very well.

Jones



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i go with that.  especially, as i said, the color matches when you burn it.
therefore it makes sense that we have electrons jumping to higher valence
energy levels, and emitting when they drop.

On 12/19/05, Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au> wrote:
>
> In reply to  William Beaty's message of Mon, 19 Dec 2005 10:50:46
> -0800 (PST):
> Hi,
> [snip]
> >Mix 1 tablespoon baking soda in 1 pint water.
> >Cut two electrodes from an aluminum pie dish
> >Place the elctrodes on opposite sides of a jam-jar.
> >
> >Connect the electrolytic cell in series with a 75 watt lamp
> >to a 120 volt AC line supply - or better, through a 1:1
> >isolation transformer.      Care!
> >
> >The light quickly dims.
> >In a dark room, the electrodes glow.
> >
> >See  <http://home.earthlink.net/~lenyr/borax.htm>
> >
> >What is the mechanism?
> [snip]
> If the electrodes do indeed form diodes, and the glow occurs
> during reverse bias, then that is when a high voltage falls across
> a very thin chemical layer. The electron leakage current could be
> sufficiently accelerated to produce energetic electrons capable of
> exciting high energy (i.e. blue) transitions within the atoms.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Robin van Spaandonk
>
> http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
>
> Competition provides the motivation,
> Cooperation provides the means.
>
>


--
"Monsieur l'abb=E9, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to ma=
ke
it possible for you to continue to write"  Voltaire

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i go with that.&nbsp; especially, as i said, the color matches when you bur=
n it.&nbsp; therefore it makes sense that we have electrons jumping to high=
er valence energy levels, and emitting when they drop. <br><br>
<div><span class=3D"gmail_quote">On 12/19/05, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername"=
>Robin van Spaandonk</b> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rvanspaa bigpond.net.au">rva=
nspaa bigpond.net.au</a>&gt; wrote:</span>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">In reply to&nbsp;&nbsp;William B=
eaty's message of Mon, 19 Dec 2005 10:50:46<br>-0800 (PST):<br>Hi,<br>[snip=
]<br>&gt;Mix 1 tablespoon baking soda in 1 pint water.
<br>&gt;Cut two electrodes from an aluminum pie dish<br>&gt;Place the elctr=
odes on opposite sides of a jam-jar.<br>&gt;<br>&gt;Connect the electrolyti=
c cell in series with a 75 watt lamp<br>&gt;to a 120 volt AC line supply - =
or better, through a 1:1
<br>&gt;isolation transformer.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Care!<br>=
&gt;<br>&gt;The light quickly dims.<br>&gt;In a dark room, the electrodes g=
low.<br>&gt;<br>&gt;See&nbsp;&nbsp;&lt;<a href=3D"http://home.earthlink.net=
/~lenyr/borax.htm">http://home.earthlink.net/~lenyr/borax.htm
</a>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;What is the mechanism?<br>[snip]<br>If the electrod=
es do indeed form diodes, and the glow occurs<br>during reverse bias, then =
that is when a high voltage falls across<br>a very thin chemical layer. The=
 electron leakage current could be
<br>sufficiently accelerated to produce energetic electrons capable of<br>e=
xciting high energy (i.e. blue) transitions within the atoms.<br><br><br>Re=
gards,<br><br>Robin van Spaandonk<br><br><a href=3D"http://users.bigpond.ne=
t.au/rvanspaa/">
http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/</a><br><br>Competition provides the m=
otivation,<br>Cooperation provides the means.<br><br></blockquote></div><br=
><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br>&quot;Monsieur l'abb=E9, I detest what you wr=
ite, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to wr=
ite&quot;&nbsp;&nbsp;Voltaire=20

------=_Part_22253_2008613.1135034694633--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 19 15:35:06 2005
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From: Horace Heffner <hheffner mtaonline.net>
Subject: Re: weird glow from aluminum in baking soda solution
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 14:33:29 -0900
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On Dec 19, 2005, at 9:50 AM, William Beaty wrote:
>
> See  <http://home.earthlink.net/~lenyr/borax.htm>
>
> What is the mechanism?

I wrote: "As food for thought, you might also check out:

    <http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/BlueAEH.pdf>"

Messing up things as usual!  That should have said:"As food for  
thought, you might also check out:

    <http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/SpotsPairs.pdff>"

Even though the blue glow is an anode effect, proton involvement is  
highly likely.  There are some notes in the above pdf about proton  
tunneling that may be relevant.  A wild speculation is that free  
protons are stripped of electrons at the anode, probably have the  
highest concentration there, and may in rarely and briefly existing  
pairs have the ability to tunnel as pairs into seed locations, like  
free electrons.

I should also have mentioned AEH background info at:

    <http://mtaonline.net/~hheffner/AtomicExpansion.pdf>

Regards,

Horace Heffner

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Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 23:35:16 +0000
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From: Grimer <f.grimer grimer2.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: ZPE, Naked Women and UFOs
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At 04:39 pm 19/12/2005 -0500, hohlraum wrote:

>Yes, I understand your point and should expand on mine.  I see all that 
>is as being continuous and it doesn't depend on what 'is' is <g>.  We 
>just don't see it All.


We certainly don't. "For in him were all things 
created in heaven and on earth, visible and 
invisible, whether thrones, or dominations, or
principalities, or powers." and if I may make 
so bold, the Beta-atmosphere.   ;-)

We don't see the thrones, or dominations, or
principalities, or powers. Well, not unless they
choose to put in an appearence, which they don't 
very often. And we don't see the B-a - except 
intellectually - and then it's possibly only
me and thee - as the story goes.  8-)

 
 
>BTW, just what is it that separates your Beta-atmosphere densities?  
>What keeps the pressure different inside versus outside?



Good question. It must be analogous to negative water pressure. i.e.
there must be a curved meniscus between the atoms of a metal say. 
Whilst on the subject, Dalton is the one to blame for introducing the
idea of bonds as little sticks. This precluded the recognition of the
state within metals as being a general low pressure in the pore phase.

I know I use the analogy of ties and struts but I know it is only
a model and I do so because it makes is easier to separate out the
two types of strain energy, positive (compression) and negative 
(tension).

Another way of answering your question is to see it as analogous to
osmosis. This is a deeper way of looking at things cos it entails 
a dynamic equilibrium with flows in and out. (cf radiation equilibrium)

Frank

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Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 23:50:28 +0000
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Subject: Re: ZPE, Naked Women and UFOs
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At 04:02 pm 19/12/2005 -0600, you wrote:
>> 

< Pornography deleted >


>
> ................. Eastern understanding of the expression 
> of our sexuality far surpasses western knowledge, the 
> latter which, in truth, is downright prudish in comparison.


Thank God for that. You sound like a real pervert Steven.


> Dare to explore!


Certainly not. And I don't want any of those sweets, either.
With a middle name like Vincent, you wouldn't be a lapsed 
Catholic by any chance. "Corruptio Optimi Pessima " 

Frank Grimer

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revtec wrote:

>I think it highly unlikely that we have in this world aliens coexisting with
>angels.  We either have aliens masquerading as angels, or fallen angels
>masquerading as aliens.  I personally suspect the latter.
>
>Then, there is also option three for those who prefer it, that both angels
>and aliens are imaginary.  It seems that one of these three choices must be
>true.  Is there somebody out there able to pull enough facts together to
>prove the truth in this matter?
>
>Jeff
>  
>
I think Gary Bates has put it together quite nicely. There is an obvious 
lack of good data. This implies that if their
aliens or angles they don't like us to know the full truth. That in 
itself implies that they are not friendly.

 The greatest challenge in any field of science or pseudoscience is to 
know what all the assumptions are and be able to
discern their validity. We all attempt this in vortex. We're so diverse 
because we see the differences in our assumptions. 
Many out there in academia or the established Paradigm fail to do so and 
lock themselves into a framework of untested assumptions and false 
conclusions.
Many of them either can't articulate their own assumptions or assume 
that all share their world view.

A Heart seeking the truth asks first if it is ready to ask the question.

Note: There is an explanation for some UFO sightings that is still to be 
explored. Scientists studying bats in north America recently discovered 
that the eat
tons of moths per night. Radar confirmed that there were swarms of moths 
estimated in the kilotons. If these huge swarms are slightly 
bioluminescent or
reflective then they would appear as balls of light that move, dissolve 
and divide in ways that a material craft can't. Insects pixles in a 
three dimentional dance.
They could also appear to move abnormally fast if a diffuse swam over a 
large area converged on a fast moving stimuli like a light change or 
aircrafts sonic boom. The swarm would converge and then diverge but 
adjacent sections might lag creating the illusion of a fast moving 
object in the air.
Both bioluminescents and glint are weak light sources but with a million 
insects in a small relative volume the brightness can become 
significant. No one that I know of  has explored this theory. The 
related idea that UFO's are just an unknown species of fauna, 
electrostatic aerial plankton, is also a more radical possiblity.




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>>
>>Now what?
>>
>>Harry
>>    
>>
>
>"Now" we have "fallen angels masquerading as aliens" as Jeff says.
>
>If you "accept the existence of diabolical possession", 
>then you have accepted the existence of fallen angels
>who not only can possess people but can also appear in both
>human and animal form. I can't see your problem, Harry.  8-) 
>
>Frank
>
>  
>
We should also point out that Christian theology teaches that the demons 
are limited hugely by God. They rebelled and their powered are limited 
as a penalty. As Gary Bates notes in his book evangelical Christians 
seem Immune from alien abduction. We also teach that God protects us 
from demonic tampering in science but not para science.
If as some atheists teach we Christians are just gullible or suggestible 
then we should be just as vulnerable to "abduction" as any other. 
Atheists by the same argument should be immune. They aren't. 
I don't blame every thing on demons, that is true superstition, but in 
any careful analysis it is wise to consider and ask if there are forces 
or processes, even beings beyond the material; have I considered them 
and controlled for them? Can I control for them? Whether you believe in 
demons, angles, powerful aliens, or the possibility of self delusion 
your need to ask 'is this real'.

It should also be noted that demon possession is not as debilitating or 
as spectacular as the depiction in the Movie "Exorcist." Most possessed 
people today are making good money in businesses and on the new age fair 
circuit.

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Grimer sez:

...

> 
> < Pornography deleted >
> 
> >
> > ................. Eastern understanding of the
> > expression of our sexuality far surpasses western
> > knowledge, the  latter which, in truth, is downright
> > prudish in comparison.
> 
> 
> Thank God for that. You sound like a real pervert Steven.
> 
> 
> > Dare to explore!
> 
> 
> Certainly not. And I don't want any of those sweets,
> either. With a middle name like Vincent, you wouldn't
> be a lapsed Catholic by any chance. "Corruptio Optimi
> Pessima " 
> 
> Frank Grimer

Ha Ha! ;-D

You're close, Frank! Close!

I was forced to go to a catholic elementary school while living in Taiwan back in the early 60s. I can recall memories of unbelievable cruelty pertaining to what some of those penguins did to children under their care, but even the pervert within me has limits in discussing some of those details in a public forum.

Regards,
Steven "VINCENT" Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

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> From: Wesley Bruce

...

> We should also point out that Christian theology teaches that
> the demons are limited hugely by God. They rebelled and their
> powered are limited as a penalty. As Gary Bates notes in his
> book evangelical Christians seem Immune from alien abduction. 
> We also teach that God protects us from demonic tampering in
> science but not para science. If as some atheists teach we 
> Christians are just gullible or suggestible then we should be
> just as vulnerable to "abduction" as any other. Atheists by 
> the same argument should be immune. They aren't. I don't 
> blame every thing on demons, that is true superstition, but in 
> any careful analysis it is wise to consider and ask if there
> are forces or processes, even beings beyond the material; 
> have I considered them and controlled for them? Can I control
> for them? Whether you believe in demons, angles, powerful
> aliens, or the possibility of self delusion your need to ask
> 'is this real'.


Consider the possibility that there may exist some form of non-interference standard in place. As such, it may be considered ethically inappropriate to reveal their existence to individuals whose religion firmly dictates a paradigm where revealing their existence can only be interpreted as Fallen Angels or Demons. The shock alone of revealing themselves would be highly disruptive to the individual.

There's also evidence to support the premise that Christians, just like any group of individuals encounter these beings with the same level of randomnes. Believing that one is protected by God may be a moot point. I can point you to a book:

"UFO... contact from RETICULUM"
ISBN: 0-937850-06-3
By Lt. Col. Wendelle C. Stevens (Ret.)

Here's part of the blurb on the back flap:

* * * * * * *

William J. Herman was born in August of 1952 in Newport, Rhode Island, and came to Charleston with his Navy father in 1959. He attended Air Force ROTC upon his graduation from High School and later married his ROTC friend's sister.

Bill did not believe in UFOs before his own experiences began in 1977 because he thought the Air Force had satisfactorily explained the phenomena. He would have scoffed at anyone who professed any serious belief in the ridiculous subject. He thought the conclusions of the Condon Committee answered all the questions, and he gave the subject no more thought, until 1977.

His world and all of his beliefs were severely shaken by the events that unfolded around him from then to now. He still doesn't know how to deal with the new truths. He is concerned about the apathy given to subject and the fact that nobody knows and nobody wants to know what is really going on. He feels duty bound to make someone in authority understand.

* * * * * * *

The book is probably difficult to locate these days, though a good book researcher or store specializing in UFOlogy might be of some assistance.

> It should also be noted that demon possession is not as
> debilitating or as spectacular as the depiction in the Movie
> "Exorcist." Most possessed people today are making good
> money in businesses and on the new age fair circuit.

Personally, I find this to be an unfortunate and sad conclusion to make as it goes about painting its broad and vague condemnation of an extremely diverse society.

It's not very smart either.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 19 19:04:50 2005
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Hi Frank,
Or another way of conceptualizing the differential ( B-a ) may be as 
elementary as using an analogy to Positive- Negative dynamics of magnetism. 
One's mind  must be open to the role that " neutral" magnetism plays. No 
such thing, you may say. Frank thinks in the abstract. When so doing, expect 
an answer in the abstract as so eleoquently stated by him.
<   And we don't see the B-a - except
> intellectually - and then it's possibly only
> me and thee - as the story goes.  8-)

Consider two superb violinists with years of practice together.. they may be 
in a quiet room together, just the two of them with their music. No words 
spoken.. yet.. they carry on a conversation (communicate through their 
music) at an intellectual level that transcends speech. Over those hours it 
is possible for them to cover an abundance of topics of mutual interest.

In the past, I suggested  that we await the discovery of a higher form of 
mathematics to " see" what is sensed intellectually , and evidenced by the 
observation of certain physical events ( such as cold fusion)that lead us to 
conclude a reality exists.
 My suggestion has been that some of the "physical tools" for constructing 
the platform for this math may already exists           in " game boy 
software". WE await Intel's new " Viiv" computer chip and its application to 
another level of computing that could   allow " quadratic computing" , 
(perhaps as close at it is possible to achieve " quantum computing"). 
Quadratics would allow the further exploration of certain abstract forms of 
math.

Richard
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Grimer" <f.grimer grimer2.freeserve.co.uk>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Monday, December 19, 2005 5:35 PM
Subject: Re: ZPE, Naked Women and UFOs


> At 04:39 pm 19/12/2005 -0500, hohlraum wrote:
>
>>Yes, I understand your point and should expand on mine.  I see all that
>>is as being continuous and it doesn't depend on what 'is' is <g>.  We
>>just don't see it All.
>
>
> We certainly don't. "For in him were all things
> created in heaven and on earth, visible and
> invisible, whether thrones, or dominations, or
> principalities, or powers." and if I may make
> so bold, the Beta-atmosphere.   ;-)
>
> We don't see the thrones, or dominations, or
> principalities, or powers. Well, not unless they
> choose to put in an appearence, which they don't
> very often. >
>
>
>>BTW, just what is it that separates your Beta-atmosphere densities?
>>What keeps the pressure different inside versus outside?
>
>
>
> Good question. It must be analogous to negative water pressure. i.e.
> there must be a curved meniscus between the atoms of a metal say.
> Whilst on the subject, Dalton is the one to blame for introducing the
> idea of bonds as little sticks. This precluded the recognition of the
> state within metals as being a general low pressure in the pore phase.
>
> I know I use the analogy of ties and struts but I know it is only
> a model and I do so because it makes is easier to separate out the
> two types of strain energy, positive (compression) and negative
> (tension).
>
> Another way of answering your question is to see it as analogous to
> osmosis. This is a deeper way of looking at things cos it entails
> a dynamic equilibrium with flows in and out. (cf radiation equilibrium)
>
> Frank
>
> 


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 19 21:48:32 2005
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Robin wrote:

> If the electrodes do indeed form diodes, and the glow occurs 
> during reverse bias, then that is when a high voltage falls across 
> a very thin chemical layer. The electron leakage current could be 
> sufficiently accelerated to produce energetic electrons capable of 
> exciting high energy (i.e. blue) transitions within the atoms.

I may be the only Vort having extensive practical experience with
this phenomenon.  Yes, the electrodes really form diodes.  This is
hundred-year-old stuff.  If you use lead or stainless steel for one
of the electrodes it makes a serviceable rectifier, although the
voltage drop is about five volts, as opposed to a silicon rectifier
at about .6 volt.

I don't think its accurate to refer to this as electroluminescence.
It's more like electro-scintillation.  If you look at the electrode
under about 40X magnification, it resembles a swarm of fireflies.
Most of the light given off is apparently in the UV.  If you add a
fluorescent dye to the electrolyte you get a much brighter display.
And  of course, you can choose the color you want.  Fluorescein or
rhodamine 6G work nicely.

Given the appearance of the electrodes under magnification, I'm not
sure if Robin's hypothesis would explain the phenomenon.  Wouldn't
electron leakage current produce a more uniform light intensity?

Alternate explanations might be simple arcing on a microscopic scale,
or maybe oxygen bubble formation and subsequent collapse, thereby
producing sonoluminescence. Incidentally, you can still form the
semiconductor layer at lower voltage, around 15V, but no light is given
off.  I'm not sure what the voltage threshold is for the glow. 

M.


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At 08:11 pm 19/12/2005 -0600, Steven Vincent Johnson wrote:
>Grimer sez:
>
>...
>
>> 
>> < Pornography deleted >
>> 
>> >
>> > ................. Eastern understanding of the
>> > expression of our sexuality far surpasses western
>> > knowledge, the  latter which, in truth, is downright
>> > prudish in comparison.
>> 
>> 
>> Thank God for that. You sound like a real pervert Steven.
>> 
>> 
>> > Dare to explore!
>> 
>> 
>> Certainly not. And I don't want any of those sweets,
>> either. With a middle name like Vincent, you wouldn't
>> be a lapsed Catholic by any chance. "Corruptio Optimi
>> Pessima " 
>> 
>> Frank Grimer
>
> Ha Ha! ;-D
>
> You're close, Frank! Close!
>
> I was forced to go to a catholic elementary school 
> while living in Taiwan back in the early 60s. I can 
> recall memories of unbelievable cruelty pertaining 
> to what some of those penguins did to children under 
> their care,


Forced? Who forced you? Your parents presumably.
Is that what this is all about. Perhaps your father
was a General Jack D. Ripper character who wanted 
to toughen his artistic little boy up a bit.

Perhaps he ignored his pleas to be removed from the 
clutches of those traditional nuns who were 
subjecting him to "unbelievable cruelty."  

I mean to say, if the nuns were pulling out your 
finger nails, applying electric shocks to your 
genitals and forcing you to watch as they danced 
around a pentacle naked, then it was pretty remiss 
of your parents not to remove you was it not - 
and I can understand you resenting it. 

But come on Steven, it wasn't that unbelievable, was it!
After all, the sixties was before the evil of Vatican 2, 
"the smoke of Satan" had permeated its way through the 
Church.

I too was sent to a convent school at the age of 6. 
I didn't like it much and rather resented it when my 
mother took away my sensitive elder brother (he cried a 
lot) and left me there - so I sympathise with your 
childhood experience.

But to label it "unbelievable cruelty". Goodness me, 
that is a bridge too far, isn't it Steven.

And if it really was the "unbelievable cruelty" that you 
claim, surely you have a civil duty to expose it, to tell 
Vortexians all about it so that they don't make the 
mistake of committing their precious charges to such 
evil hypocritical mentors. 

Of course to do so would out the "unbelievable cruelty"  
of your parents, your own flesh and blood. 

What child wants to face up to that?

Frank







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From: Horace Heffner <hheffner mtaonline.net>
Subject: Re: weird glow from aluminum in baking soda solution
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 01:56:10 -0900
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On Dec 19, 2005, at 12:33 PM, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:


> If the electrodes do indeed form diodes,


The electrodes do indeed form diodes with high breakdown voltages,  
depending on the metal and electrolyte used.  For example, Al and Zr,  
can glow, Mg and Pb produce no glow.  It takes while for the diode  
layer to form, and that time varies significantly depending on the  
electrolyte used.  Saturated CaO got very quick results, Na2SiO3 at  
0.1 g/l took about 15 min. in one case.  Al apparently forms a very  
thin layer, while Zr forms a thick white layer in saturated CaO  
electrolyte. The glow can be formed in NaOH or acetic acid electrolytes.

My impression was that the glow could be suppressed by use of old  
electrolyte that had significant Al in it due to electrosparking.   
Similarly, the glow can be suppressed by use of alum for the  
electolyte.  I did not investigate this aspect thoroughly and it  
could be wrong, but it *was* in my notes.

Some forms (alloys) of aluminum apparently do not achieve blue glow.   
I had a type of aluminum wire that did not produce a blue glow even  
in the same electrolyte in which foil worked.  That wire also formed  
a sludge at the bottom of the cell.  However, it may be that the glow  
did not form in that case because electrosparks form easily on thin  
wires and electrosparks short out electron paths through the oxide  
layer.  This too offers some support for your assertion below.

When the electrode is "conditioned" and the glow is formed, the i vs  
V curve looks like  Fig 1.   (Use Courier font to view.)


                 /|
                / /
     ----------/ /
    / /---------/
   / /
   |/

   Fig 1. - i vs V curve


The i vs T curve looks like Fig. 2.

            ----
           /    \
          /      \
    ------        \
  /                \
/..................\..........................
                     \                   /
                      \                 /
                        -------        /
                               \      /
                                \    /
                                 ----

    Fig. 2 - i vs T for blue glow.

The "diode" effect can be seen by replacing a conditioned electrode  
with a fresh electrode.  One half of the trace indicates and ordinary  
linear ohm's law relation, while the conditioned electrode's phase  
shift and breakdown voltage remains evident.

> and the glow occurs
> during reverse bias, then that is when a high voltage falls across
> a very thin chemical layer.

The glow forms when the electrode is the anode.


> The electron leakage current could be
> sufficiently accelerated to produce energetic electrons capable of
> exciting high energy (i.e. blue) transitions within the atoms.

Fig. 1 and 2 do in fact indicate a breakdown at a threshold voltage  
level, which is consistent with this hypothesis.  Further, when using  
a variac to sweep the peak voltage, the blue glow onset begins at the  
breakdown voltage and increases as the voltage is increased from  
there.   It appears to be proportional to the breakdown current.   
This is also supportive of your hypothesis.

One thing that bothers me a bit about your hypothesis though, is that  
the glow is the same color regardless of whether Zr or Al is used.   
It is the same for a Zr electrode with a very thick coating as it is  
for Al with a very thin coating.  Additionally, If two ohmmeter  
probes are placed across an aluminum electrode after the experiment,  
they indicate nearly zero resistance.  There seems to be some  
(instantaneous) interaction between the coating and the electrolyte  
that produces the large breakdown voltage.

The breakdown voltage for a previously conditioned Zr electrode used  
in a 0.5 g/l Na2SiO3 electrolyte starts at about 320 V and drops to  
about 280 V as the experiment progresses.  I don't think this voltage  
fall-off is due to temperature, because cells pre-heated to 100 Deg.  
C were used.  I don't know what causes this.  This absolute voltage I  
think as also a function of the electrolyte resistance, but that  
should *increase* as electrolyte boils off.

It is of interest that, provided the electrospark regime is avoided,  
and appropriate electrolyte is used, the blue glow  can go on almost  
indefinitely without destroying the electrodes.

I think the glow requires suppression of the plating type reactions,  
e.g.:

    Al+++ + 3e- ---> Al  (at cathode)
    Al - 3e-  --> Al+++  (at anode)

I think the oxide layer, at some thickness, must prevent this. This  
also supports your hypothesis, in that the Al can not be oxidized.   
The only thing likely to be oxidized at the anode is OH-, producing  
OH, or HOOH, which then provides some support for recombination  
reactions as the source of the blue glow.  This would explain why  
both Zr and Al produce the same color. The oxidation reaction may  
come from OH or HOOH produced at the anode and then diffusing and  
coming into contact with H3O+ radicals, thereby grabbing the free  
proton.  There is a layered interface at the anode, just like the  
cathode but with the O end of the H2O toward the anode, as opposed to  
the H end, but the de-electronated OH- radicals are free to escape  
this  interface.

I do not know how a high breakdown voltage diode interface forms.   
Where are the N and P types of semiconductors?  Aluminum oxide is a  
powerful insulator - and yet it conducts fine in the thin layer that  
normally covers metallic aluminum.  It is difficult to see exactly  
how a even a powerful insulator forms, much less a diode.  It is then  
even more difficult to see why the diode layer disappears when the  
electrode is dry.

In looking at the electrode carefully, it appeared the glow was in,  
or extended into, the electrolyte, but that could have been an illusion.

One last thing.  I vaguely recall reading about photon releases being  
discovered in (silicon) diode layers when breakdown occurs.  It is a  
self-healing phenomenon if the breakdown voltage is not exceeded too  
much.  The problem that still remains though is where exactly is that  
layer?

Regards,

Horace Heffner

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Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 11:10:45 +0000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Grimer <f.grimer grimer2.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: ZPE,  and UFOs-do we realy need to say OT
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At 12:55 pm 20/12/2005 +1100, Wesley Bruce wrote:
>
>>>
>>>Now what?
>>>
>>>Harry
>>>    
>>>
>>
>>"Now" we have "fallen angels masquerading as aliens" as Jeff says.
>>
>>If you "accept the existence of diabolical possession", 
>>then you have accepted the existence of fallen angels
>>who not only can possess people but can also appear in both
>>human and animal form. I can't see your problem, Harry.  8-) 
>>
>>Frank
>>
>>  
>>

> It should also be noted that demon possession is not as 
> debilitating or as spectacular as the depiction in the 
> Movie "Exorcist." Most possessed people today are making 
> good money in businesses and on the new age fair circuit.


Perhaps the following account of meddling with demons will 
interest Vortexians.

One of my grandsons's, John Vianney Grimer, joined the Royal 
Marines. Now the Marines are, with the exception of the SAS, 
the toughest outfit in the British Forces - not that the rest 
are wimps. As my BRS colleague, Dr.Majumdar once remarked - 
One thing the British are superbly good at is fighting. 
That's how they managed to dominate the biggest empire ever 
seen with only handfuls of men.

Well, after the troop had their passing out parade and
received their coveted green berets, some of his mates 
decided it would be fun to have a ouija board session 
for a bit of a lark. John told them not to be so stupid. 
He said they had no idea what they were letting themselves 
in for. Of course being full of their own toughness and 
fighting spirit, they laughed him to scorn. 

John refused to take any part in the proceeding and left 
for the canteen.

When he came back to his barrack he found a very different 
atmosphere. He never found out exactly what happened but 
what ever it was had scared these tough British Marines, on 
the eve of leaving to fight in Afghanistan, absolutely 
shitless. So much so that the squaddie in the next bunk 
couldn't get to sleep and asked John if he could borrow his 
rosary.

Frank Grimer
 





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Is there a phase that the H- anion will plate out?

http://www.soton.ac.uk/~pasr1/


http://fusion.anl.gov/ALPS_Info_Center/2004-12-06/presentations/6.5bOlczak.pdf

Hansen, M., Anderko, K. (1958), Constitution of Binary Alloys. New York: McGraw-Hill,

Fred
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<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Is there a phase that the H- anion will plate out?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2><A href="http://www.soton.ac.uk/~pasr1/">http://www.soton.ac.uk/~pasr1/</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://fusion.anl.gov/ALPS_Info_Center/2004-12-06/presentations/6.5bOlczak.pdf">http://fusion.anl.gov/ALPS_Info_Center/2004-12-06/presentations/6.5bOlczak.pdf</A></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Hansen, M., Anderko, K. (1958), Constitution of Binary Alloys. New York: McGraw-Hill,</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Fred</DIV></BODY></HTML>
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How about fused Lithium-Lithium Hydride-Lithium BoroHydride (Li-LiH-LiBH4)?

Fred
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Frederick Sparber 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Sent: 12/20/2005 5:40:49 AM 
Subject: Re: Lithium-Hydrogen Phase Diagram


Is there a phase that the H- anion will plate out?

http://www.soton.ac.uk/~pasr1/


http://fusion.anl.gov/ALPS_Info_Center/2004-12-06/presentations/6.5bOlczak.pdf

Hansen, M., Anderko, K. (1958), Constitution of Binary Alloys. New York: McGraw-Hill,

Fred
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<DIV>
<DIV>How about fused Lithium-Lithium Hydride-Lithium BoroHydride (Li-LiH-LiBH4)?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Fred</DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=fjsparber earthlink.net href="mailto:fjsparber@earthlink.net">Frederick Sparber</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To: </B><A title=vortex-l eskimo.com href="mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com">vortex-l@eskimo.com</A></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> 12/20/2005 5:40:49 AM </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Lithium-Hydrogen Phase Diagram</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><FONT size=2>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Is there a phase that the H- anion will plate out?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2><A href="http://www.soton.ac.uk/~pasr1/">http://www.soton.ac.uk/~pasr1/</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://fusion.anl.gov/ALPS_Info_Center/2004-12-06/presentations/6.5bOlczak.pdf">http://fusion.anl.gov/ALPS_Info_Center/2004-12-06/presentations/6.5bOlczak.pdf</A></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Hansen, M., Anderko, K. (1958), Constitution of Binary Alloys. New York: McGraw-Hill,</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Fred</DIV></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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Is this close, Frank?    :-)

http://www.soton.ac.uk/~pasr1/steels.htm#page1

Cement Tight?

Fred
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<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Is this close, Frank?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; :-)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2><A href="http://www.soton.ac.uk/~pasr1/steels.htm#page1">http://www.soton.ac.uk/~pasr1/steels.htm#page1</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Cement Tight?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Fred</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
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From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" <salaw pobox.com>
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Subject: Re: Lautzenhiser paper uploaded
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Lovely paper, with what appear to be ironclad results.  I had a couple 
questions about this to which I thought you might know the answers.

At the end of the paper they mention the "Phillips-Oppenheimer" process 
in which D+Pd => H+Ag, and say that, though it was not possible to test 
for the presence of silver in the electrode after this experiment, they 
hoped to do such tests in the future.  Do you know if they -- or anyone 
else -- have since run a CF cell long enough so that they could sensibly 
hope that a detectible amount of silver might be generated?  Has that 
reaction been ruled out by later tests, or is it still a contender?

The other item that I noticed is that they seemed to have been working 
with just a single Pd electrode in this and their earlier work.  Do you 
know if it turned out to be a "magic electrode"?  I.e., did their later 
work with other electrodes run into reproducibility problems?  And if 
not ... why did Amoco drop the line of research?  (At least, I assume 
they did; this was 15 years ago and Amoco is not a household word in 
cold fusion research, at least around my house.)

Jed Rothwell wrote:

> For a long time I have been wanting to upload this paper: 
> Lautzenhiser, T. and D. Phelps, /Cold Fusion: Report on a Recent Amoco 
> Experiment/. 1990, Amoco Production Company. This is an important part 
> of the early history of cold fusion. But I could not find a complete, 
> clean copy. I finally found one. The paper is here:
>
> http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/Lautzenhiscoldfusion.pdf
>
> - Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 20 07:51:34 2005
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: OFF TOPIC Thanks to the F.B.I. we are safe from llama fur
  protesters!
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Here is a surrealistic quote from today's New York Times. It seems 
that since 9/11 the F.B.I. has spared no effort to protect American 
citizens from evildoers everywhere:

"One F.B.I. document indicates that agents in Indianapolis planned to 
conduct surveillance as part of a 'Vegan Community Project.' Another 
document talks of the Catholic Workers group's 'semi-communistic 
ideology.' A third indicates the bureau's interest in determining the 
location of a protest over llama fur planned by People for the 
Ethical Treatment of Animals."

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 20 08:14:56 2005
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Lautzenhiser paper uploaded
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Stephen A. Lawrence wrote:

>Do you know if they -- or anyone else -- have since run a CF cell 
>long enough so that they could sensibly hope that a detectible 
>amount of silver might be generated?

I do not think so. They did not have many successful runs after this.


>The other item that I noticed is that they seemed to have been 
>working with just a single Pd electrode in this and their earlier 
>work.  Do you know if it turned out to be a "magic 
>electrode"?  I.e., did their later work with other electrodes run 
>into reproducibility problems?

I believe that is what happened, but I will ask them.


>And if not ... why did Amoco drop the line of research?

They were never enthusiastic about it in the first place. As I recall 
the researchers were not able to easily reproduce or scale up the 
results, and Amoco lost interest. The researchers also told me that 
Amoco management said that most scientists consider cold fusion 
crackpot nonsense so they did not want the company associated with 
it. This is also the reason most research in India ended after 
Srinivasan, Iengar and others retired. Hard line "skeptics" who knew 
nothing about the research took over management positions and banned 
the experiments because, they said, the Indian government does not 
conduct pathological science.

Public opinion affects decisions about scientific project funding to 
a surprising extent. The decision makers themselves do not realize 
how much they are affected by newspaper reports and the like.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 20 08:17:20 2005
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Subject: Re: ZPE, Naked Women and UFOs
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Grimer sez:

...

> > I was forced to go to a catholic elementary school 
> > while living in Taiwan back in the early 60s. I can 
> > recall memories of unbelievable cruelty pertaining 
> > to what some of those penguins did to children under 
> > their care,
> 
> 
> Forced? Who forced you? Your parents presumably.
> Is that what this is all about. Perhaps your father
> was a General Jack D. Ripper character who wanted 
> to toughen his artistic little boy up a bit.
> 
> Perhaps he ignored his pleas to be removed from the 
> clutches of those traditional nuns who were 
> subjecting him to "unbelievable cruelty."  
> 
> I mean to say, if the nuns were pulling out your 
> finger nails, applying electric shocks to your 
> genitals and forcing you to watch as they danced 
> around a pentacle naked, then it was pretty remiss 
> of your parents not to remove you was it not - 
> and I can understand you resenting it. 
> 
> But come on Steven, it wasn't that unbelievable, was it!
> After all, the sixties was before the evil of Vatican 2, 
> "the smoke of Satan" had permeated its way through the 
> Church.
> 
> I too was sent to a convent school at the age of 6. 
> I didn't like it much and rather resented it when my 
> mother took away my sensitive elder brother (he cried a 
> lot) and left me there - so I sympathise with your 
> childhood experience.
> 
> But to label it "unbelievable cruelty". Goodness me, 
> that is a bridge too far, isn't it Steven.
> 
> And if it really was the "unbelievable cruelty" that you 
> claim, surely you have a civil duty to expose it, to tell 
> Vortexians all about it so that they don't make the 
> mistake of committing their precious charges to such 
> evil hypocritical mentors. 
> 
> Of course to do so would out the "unbelievable cruelty"  
> of your parents, your own flesh and blood. 
> 
> What child wants to face up to that?
> 
> Frank
> 

Yes, I would call it being forced. As a child what choice did I have but to accept what my parents felt was best for me and my education. You seem speak of physical torture. I'm speaking of the psychological damage I witnessed.

I could go on about some of the psychological cruelty I witnessed by the hands of those penguins, but I don't think that's getting to the real issue here.

Tell me Frank. Was it my comment about the expression and exploration of Eastern sexuality and how it appears to be far more advanced than our quaint western prudery. Is that what is really bothering you about me and why you appear to have felt compelled to denigrate my parental heritage?

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 20 08:30:30 2005
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Grimer sez:

...

> When he came back to his barrack he found a very different 
> atmosphere. He never found out exactly what happened but 
> what ever it was had scared these tough British Marines, on 
> the eve of leaving to fight in Afghanistan, absolutely 
> shitless. So much so that the squaddie in the next bunk 
> couldn't get to sleep and asked John if he could borrow his 
> rosary.
> 
> Frank Grimer
>  

Whoever was jerking their chains from the other side were probably laughing their heads off too.

I don't think the art of practical jokes die when we die.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 20 09:03:09 2005
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Subject: Re: Lautzenhiser paper uploaded
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Many of these older papers, where some positive results were 
found, raise two prevalent but neglected issues in LENR which have 
never been dealt with methodocally or scientifically - to any 
degree of confidence. This particular failure is obviously a 
function of lack of funding.

These are:

1) "Reverse" economy of scale

2) Possible "depeletion" of an unrecognized "active" material


By "depeletion" of an active (electrode or electrolyte) material, 
I am refering to at least four possibilities:

1) An active isotope, such as 102 Pd (1+% of natural) which is 
depleted after several days of operation (could also be an isotope 
in the electrolyte)
2) An active nuclear isomer, which is depleted after several days 
of operation (could be an isomer in the electrolyte)
3) An active alloy or impurtity which is in PPM quantities, which 
is depleted after several days of operation (could be an impurity 
in the electrolyte)
4) A natural population of previously unknown "active" (or 
manufactured in-situ)particles, such as primordial solar-derived 
hydrinos, or "electronium" (lepton triad), or the Dirac letpon 
monopole, any of which possibilites (any more) are depleted after 
several days of operation.

The 'reverse economy of scale' is a subject which is desparately 
in need of attention- as it is 'discouraging' to all inventors but 
not necessarily 'fatal' to eventual commercial success. It is 
probably a factor seen in the BLP experiments as well. Because 
inventors focus on the "nuclear" aspects of LENR (which ought to 
be scalable) rather than the QM aspects (which are not scalable), 
they are often oblivious as to this issue of optimum size as being 
extremely relevant.

For instance - as to commercial implementation - IF 
reverse-economy-of-scale parameters indicate that OU will be 
spatially limited to say, 1 watt per cc, then commerical 
implementation could concievably merely substitue a large number 
of mass-produced smaller units, spread out over a large spatial 
volume.

Depletion of "active" material is a potentially more serious 
problem.

Jones




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Jones Beene wrote:

> Many of these older papers, where some positive results were found, 
> raise two prevalent but neglected issues in LENR which have never been 
> dealt with methodocally or scientifically - to any degree of 
> confidence. This particular failure is obviously a function of lack of 
> funding.
>
> These are:
>
 > [ ... ]

> 2) Possible "depeletion" of an unrecognized "active" material
>
> [ ... ]

> Depletion of "active" material is a potentially more serious problem.

I don't believe "depletion" is an issue.

 From what I've read and what I've heard on Vortex, the "magic" in wet 
CF cells _seems_ to be associated with the electrodes.  When one has a 
suitable "magic" electrode, it works; if one doesn't have the right 
magic in the electrode, it doesn't work.

But the kicker is that a magic electrode seems to keep right on being 
"magic" up until the point where it loses structural integrity due to 
wear and tear (e.g., Patterson's magic beads, which eventually 
disintegrated IIRC).  A magic electrode doesn't seem to "run down" in 
any way, as one would expect if it had some trace quantities of some 
active substance, whether the "traces" took the form of an impurity or 
were strange dislocations in the crystal structure which changed state 
and gave off energy as time went by and the electrode annealed. (And 
besides, aren't these electrodes annealed after machining and before 
they're used?  I think so.)

If the electrode contained any kind of stuff that got "used up" as time 
went by, and which wasn't present in bulk quantity (like, the palladium 
itself), one would expect the power curve to go up and then come down 
again during a multi-month run.  Instead, it just goes up and then stays 
up.  The run in the Amoco paper, for instance, was 2 months long, and 
the electrode was already well-used: it was left over from earlier OU 
experiments.  There was no sign of anything being "used up"; it was 
still going strong at the end of the run.  The run was stopped because 
they had the data they wanted, not because the cell stopped working.  
Certainly your suggestion that something is "depleted after several days 
of operation" is ruled out by this paper alone.

All in all, looking at power curves that only go up or remain flat, it 
would seem that either the palladium is acting as a catalyst, or the 
palladium itself is acting as a fuel.  The latter would be hard to rule 
out because there's so much of the Pd present in a "bulk" electrode -- 
it might take a very long time to "deplete" it in that case.  OTOH I 
recall that palladium foil electrodes have been used; I don't recall how 
long the runs were, but the far smaller amount of metal present in such 
a configuration might lead one to reject the notion that the Pd itself 
is being used up _if_ the runs went on long enough (however long that 
might be).


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From: Grimer <f.grimer grimer2.freeserve.co.uk>
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At 10:11 am 20/12/2005 -0600, Steven wrote:

> Grimer sez:
>
>...
>
>> > I was forced to go to a catholic elementary school 
>> > while living in Taiwan back in the early 60s. I can 
>> > recall memories of unbelievable cruelty pertaining 
>> > to what some of those penguins did to children under 
>> > their care,
>> 
>> 
>> Forced? Who forced you? Your parents presumably.
>> Is that what this is all about. Perhaps your father
>> was a General Jack D. Ripper character who wanted 
>> to toughen his artistic little boy up a bit.
>> 
>> Perhaps he ignored his pleas to be removed from the 
>> clutches of those traditional nuns who were 
>> subjecting him to "unbelievable cruelty."  
>> 
>> I mean to say, if the nuns were pulling out your 
>> finger nails, applying electric shocks to your 
>> genitals and forcing you to watch as they danced 
>> around a pentacle naked, then it was pretty remiss 
>> of your parents not to remove you was it not - 
>> and I can understand you resenting it. 
>> 
>> But come on Steven, it wasn't that unbelievable, was it!
>> After all, the sixties was before the evil of Vatican 2, 
>> "the smoke of Satan" had permeated its way through the 
>> Church.
>> 
>> I too was sent to a convent school at the age of 6. 
>> I didn't like it much and rather resented it when my 
>> mother took away my sensitive elder brother (he cried a 
>> lot) and left me there - so I sympathise with your 
>> childhood experience.
>> 
>> But to label it "unbelievable cruelty". Goodness me, 
>> that is a bridge too far, isn't it Steven.
>> 
>> And if it really was the "unbelievable cruelty" that you 
>> claim, surely you have a civil duty to expose it, to tell 
>> Vortexians all about it so that they don't make the 
>> mistake of committing their precious charges to such 
>> evil hypocritical mentors. 
>> 
>> Of course to do so would out the "unbelievable cruelty"  
>> of your parents, your own flesh and blood. 
>> 
>> What child wants to face up to that?
>> 
>> Frank
>> 
>
> Yes, I would call it being forced. As a child 
> what choice did I have but to accept what 
> my parents felt was best for me and my 
> education. 


You could have done what my brother did 
and cried until you were taken away.


> You seem speak of physical torture. 
> I'm speaking of the psychological 
> damage I witnessed.


Oh! it's all psychological now is it? How
convenient. No rack or thumbscrews as tangible
evidence of abuse.

Dearie me - another Prince Edward. Like him, 
you wouldn't last 5 minutes in the British 
Marine Commando Corps. Now there you would 
witness real psychological torture - for 
the very good reason that people who can't 
take it aren't going to be much use in battle.

What you saw as psychological torture others 
would no doubt see as good old fashioned discipline 
without which people grow up as self-centered
effete wastrels.


<snip>


>  ...you appear to have felt compelled to denigrate 
>  my parental heritage?


That's rich. It was you who denigrated your "parental
heritage" as you put it, by implication. There you were,
a psychologically frail little child, traumatized by nuns 
so much that you even have to refer to them obliquely as 
"penguins", and your parents are so unfeeling as to "force" 
you to stay at this horrible establishment where in your 
estimation children are psychologically tortured - parents 
so unaware of your pain that they don't take you away?

But as I said - perhaps it is too painful for you to 
accept that you have traduced your parents.

Nevertheless, believe it or not, I do sympathise. 
We can't all live up to parental expectations.  8-)

Cheers,

Frank



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On Dec 19, 2005, at 8:48 PM, Michael Foster wrote:

>
> Robin wrote:
>
>> If the electrodes do indeed form diodes, and the glow occurs
>> during reverse bias, then that is when a high voltage falls across
>> a very thin chemical layer. The electron leakage current could be
>> sufficiently accelerated to produce energetic electrons capable of
>> exciting high energy (i.e. blue) transitions within the atoms.
>
> I may be the only Vort having extensive practical experience with
> this phenomenon.

I have some practical experience with this.


> Yes, the electrodes really form diodes.  This is
> hundred-year-old stuff.  If you use lead or stainless steel for one
> of the electrodes it makes a serviceable rectifier, although the
> voltage drop is about five volts, as opposed to a silicon rectifier
> at about .6 volt.

Yes, but note this means steel and lead do not form the rectifying  
layer.

>
> I don't think its accurate to refer to this as electroluminescence.
> It's more like electro-scintillation.  If you look at the electrode
> under about 40X magnification, it resembles a swarm of fireflies.
> Most of the light given off is apparently in the UV.  If you add a
> fluorescent dye to the electrolyte you get a much brighter display.
> And  of course, you can choose the color you want.  Fluorescein or
> rhodamine 6G work nicely.

A sign that UV is present in addition to the blue-green.

>
> Given the appearance of the electrodes under magnification, I'm not
> sure if Robin's hypothesis would explain the phenomenon.  Wouldn't
> electron leakage current produce a more uniform light intensity?

Not if the glow itself exist in the electrolyte and thus is subject  
to and possibly even creates microscopic turbulence.

>
> Alternate explanations might be simple arcing on a microscopic scale,
> or maybe oxygen bubble formation and subsequent collapse, thereby
> producing sonoluminescence. Incidentally, you can still form the
> semiconductor layer at lower voltage, around 15V, but no light is  
> given
> off.  I'm not sure what the voltage threshold is for the glow.

At the low voltage used by Nyle Steiner in the article:
  <http://home.earthlink.net/~lenyr/borax.htm> the breakdown  
threshold, when AC was applied, varied with the peak to peak  
operating voltage.

I quote from the article: "The reverse breakdown voltage of these  
rectifiers tends to adjust itself to a point slightly below the peak  
of the applied voltage. When the ac voltage is increased, this  
breakdown value increases accordingly. When the ac voltage is  
decreased, this breakdown value decreases accordingly. This can be  
seen in the pictures above as downward dips in left portion of the  
curve from the curve tracer and at the bottom of the half wave  
rectified waveform."

I used much higher voltages though, up to over 800 V, so I was able  
to see the breakdown threshold find a limit in some of the cases I  
tested.  The limit was high, over 200 V, and depended on the cell  
conductivity.  Such a dependence may only indicate that the actual  
breakdown voltage across the thin layer is constant because cell as a  
whole is a voltage divider.  Still, electrolyte composition and  
concentration greatly affects the threshold too, more than just in  
proportion to cell resistance.  Also, previously used and conditioned  
electrodes formed the glow very fast, as opposed to fresh metal that  
required conditioning time of up to 15 min.

Here's a hypothesis.  Suppose the critical criteria for the effect is  
formation and sustaining of an insulating layer that prevents anion  
exchange across its boundary.  The anode layer only permits electron  
flow across itself, either by tunneling, or by direct conduction.   
The main candidate remaining for the light producing reaction I think  
might then be:

     OH- -> OH + e-

where the anode takes the stripped electron.  The anode can similarly  
strip electrons from other negative radicals.  The anode repels  
positive ions, so the concentration of these should be low in the  
very close vicinity of the anode, though the shielding effect, ion  
encapsulating effect, of neutral H2O is very strong, so that non- 
conducting gap would be small.  The H3O+ and other cations need only  
be separated from the anode by a sufficient distance to prevent  
tunneling of charge.  This eliminates cations in the vicinity.  Since  
both cations and anions are for the most part eliminated from the  
interface layer, it can not conduct.   When the polarity changes, the  
protons from the H3O+ are able to tunnel their way through the H2O  
interface in the usual manner.  The diode effect then essentially  
comes from the difference in mobility of protons vs OH- through the  
anode interface layer.  The boundary can be broken when the  
anodeinterface potential drop is sufficient to force OH- radicals  
through the (probably two molecule thick) anode interface boundary.

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Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 18:03:43 +0000
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From: Grimer <f.grimer grimer2.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Lautzenhiser paper uploaded
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At 12:33 pm 20/12/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>
>
>Jones Beene wrote:
>
>> Many of these older papers, where some positive results were found, 
>> raise two prevalent but neglected issues in LENR which have never been 
>> dealt with methodocally or scientifically - to any degree of 
>> confidence. This particular failure is obviously a function of lack of 
>> funding.
>>
>> These are:
>>
> > [ ... ]
>
>> 2) Possible "depeletion" of an unrecognized "active" material
>>
>> [ ... ]
>
>> Depletion of "active" material is a potentially more serious problem.
>
>I don't believe "depletion" is an issue.
>
> From what I've read and what I've heard on Vortex, the "magic" in wet 
>CF cells _seems_ to be associated with the electrodes.  When one has a 
>suitable "magic" electrode, it works; if one doesn't have the right 
>magic in the electrode, it doesn't work.
>
>But the kicker is that a magic electrode seems to keep right on being 
>"magic" up until the point where it loses structural integrity due to 
>wear and tear (e.g., Patterson's magic beads, which eventually 
>disintegrated IIRC).  A magic electrode doesn't seem to "run down" in 
>any way, as one would expect if it had some trace quantities of some 
>active substance, whether the "traces" took the form of an impurity or 
>were strange dislocations in the crystal structure which changed state 
>and gave off energy as time went by and the electrode annealed. (And 
>besides, aren't these electrodes annealed after machining and before 
>they're used?  I think so.)
>
>If the electrode contained any kind of stuff that got "used up" as time 
>went by, and which wasn't present in bulk quantity (like, the palladium 
>itself), one would expect the power curve to go up and then come down 
>again during a multi-month run.  Instead, it just goes up and then stays 
>up.  The run in the Amoco paper, for instance, was 2 months long, and 
>the electrode was already well-used: it was left over from earlier OU 
>experiments.  There was no sign of anything being "used up"; it was 
>still going strong at the end of the run.  The run was stopped because 
>they had the data they wanted, not because the cell stopped working.  
>Certainly your suggestion that something is "depleted after several days 
>of operation" is ruled out by this paper alone.
>
>All in all, looking at power curves that only go up or remain flat, it 
>would seem that either the palladium is acting as a catalyst, or the 
>palladium itself is acting as a fuel.  The latter would be hard to rule 
>out because there's so much of the Pd present in a "bulk" electrode -- 
>it might take a very long time to "deplete" it in that case.  OTOH I 
>recall that palladium foil electrodes have been used; I don't recall how 
>long the runs were, but the far smaller amount of metal present in such 
>a configuration might lead one to reject the notion that the Pd itself 
>is being used up _if_ the runs went on long enough (however long that 
>might be).



An informative, clear analysis of the present situation. 

Thanks, Stephen.

Frank

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At 07:15 am 20/12/2005 -0700, Fred wrote:
>Is this close, Frank?    :-)
>
>http://www.soton.ac.uk/~pasr1/steels.htm#page1
>
>Cement Tight?
>
>Fred


LOL  -  very droll.   8-)


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Subject: Re: Lautzenhiser paper uploaded
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Stephen A. Lawrence writes,


>> 2) Possible "depeletion" of an unrecognized "active" material

> I don't believe "depletion" is an issue.

Not in every situation, but in the Mizuno cryogenic experiments, 
for instance, the very substantial (high sigma) neutron effect 
goes away totally and entirely after several thousand seconds... 
and he repeated it ten times, if memory serves.

There are many other less-dramatic instances of a possible 
depletion-effect, and someone should at least collect them into an 
organized database.

I'll put that on my to-do list...

Jones 

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From: hohlrauml6d netscape.net
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Finally, someone finds a practical way to use the wasted ICE heat:

http://www.gizmag.com/go/4936/

"The concept uses energy from the exhaust gasses of the traditional 
Internal Combustion Engine (ICE) to power a steam engine which also 
contributes power to the automobile ? an overall 15 per cent 
improvement for the combined drive system."
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Gosh Bill, Now I feel bad for using a free email and
online handle.

What's in a name?
Is a long-used handle any more or less informative
than the name your parents gave you?

A family name tells where you came from.
A nickname tells what your friends think about you.
A Nom de Cyber tells what you feel about yourself.

I go by Merlyn because thats simply the way I think of
myself.  My real name (for those interested) is Adam
Thomas Cox, and I'm from Wichita, Ks.

Since anyone can claim to be anything online, the
answer is not to demand a proven identity, but perhaps
to demand an identity with some history behind it.

BTW Bill, thanks for not requiring a verified email
addy instead of the pay ones, it would complicate
thinks greatly.
Adam

--- William Beaty <billb eskimo.com> wrote:

> On Fri, 16 Dec 2005, Steven Krivit wrote:
> 
> > Bill B's got a good point. This is one of the
> aspects which makes Vortex
> > such a valuable group.
> > Most people are willing to identify themselves and
> stand behind their words.
> 
> In observing (or fighting with) flamer types over
> the years, I noticed
> that one of the major characteristics that reliably
> defines "flamer" is...
> anonymity!  Serious people give their real names
> (and often provide a
> message sig with personal website, city, etc.) 
> Immature or abusive people
> use handles.  

<snip>


> 
> (((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) )
> )))))))))))))))))))
> William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE
> HOBBYIST website
> billb at amasci com                        
> http://amasci.com
> EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   amateur science, hobby
> projects, sci fair
> Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    unusual phenomena,
> tesla coils, weird sci
> 
> 


Merlyn
Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist

__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 20 11:05:23 2005
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Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 11:01:21 -0800
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From: Steven Krivit <steven newenergytimes.com>
Subject: Re: Lautzenhiser paper uploaded
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>Public opinion affects decisions about scientific project funding to a 
>surprising extent. The decision makers themselves do not realize how much 
>they are affected by newspaper reports and the like.

New Energy Times issue #14 runs on Jan. 10 ! ;)






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Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 11:09:06 -0800 (PST)
From: Merlyn <merlyn_3k yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: ZPE, Naked Women and UFOs
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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Chi has very little to do with accumulation.  Like
most energies, it is only useful when flowing. 
Intercourse doesn't really deplete male chi anymore
than it depletes female chi, it simply connects the 2
energy networks, allowing for an exchange.

To reiterate IMHO you cannot 'lose' chi.  You cannot
'have' chi.  You are merely a conduit for a flow of
energy which neither begins nor ends within your self.
 You are like a dam across a river, controlling a
small portion of the flow available and using it to do
useful work.

In the end, life is what you make it.
Merlyn
Swimmer in the Chi

--- hohlrauml6d netscape.net wrote:

> Jack suffered from loss of Chi.  He would not have
> destroyed the world 
> had he practiced Sexual ChiKong, sexual orgasm
> without ejaculation:
> 
> http://www.actionlove.com/cases/case8792.htm
> 
> Chi, BTW, is believed to be related to the ZPE,
> Orgone energy, etc. (by 
> some).
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: OrionWorks
> 
> Yes a profound sense of fatigue, a feeling of
> emptiness followed. 
> Luckily I was
> able to interpret these feelings correctly: loss of
> essence.
> ___________________________________________________
> Try the New Netscape Mail Today!
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> 


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Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 11:11:01 -0800 (PST)
From: Merlyn <merlyn_3k yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: BMW ICE Steam Hybrid
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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Yup, but do they run into problems with backpressure?
Cooling the exhaust necessitates that it becomes
denser.  I have heard that backpressure can be a
problem with exhaust cooling, but do not have the
references handy.

--- hohlrauml6d netscape.net wrote:

> Finally, someone finds a practical way to use the
> wasted ICE heat:
> 
> http://www.gizmag.com/go/4936/
> 
> "The concept uses energy from the exhaust gasses of
> the traditional 
> Internal Combustion Engine (ICE) to power a steam
> engine which also 
> contributes power to the automobile ? an overall 15
> per cent 
> improvement for the combined drive system."
> ___________________________________________________
> Try the New Netscape Mail Today!
> Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your
> Contact List
> http://mail.netscape.com
> 
> 


Merlyn
Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist

__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
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 . . . and it has four wheels or tweels.

http://segway.com/centaur/
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------=_Part_6941_8461666.1135106038552
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becuase...  running a sirling off the heat from the engine coolant and bloc=
k
is innefficient?

On 12/20/05, hohlrauml6d netscape.net <hohlrauml6d@netscape.net> wrote:
>
> Finally, someone finds a practical way to use the wasted ICE heat:
>
> http://www.gizmag.com/go/4936/
>
> "The concept uses energy from the exhaust gasses of the traditional
> Internal Combustion Engine (ICE) to power a steam engine which also
> contributes power to the automobile ? an overall 15 per cent
> improvement for the combined drive system."
> ___________________________________________________
> Try the New Netscape Mail Today!
> Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List
> http://mail.netscape.com
>
>


--
"Monsieur l'abb=E9, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to ma=
ke
it possible for you to continue to write"  Voltaire

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becuase...&nbsp; running a sirling off the heat from the engine coolant and=
 block is innefficient?<br><br>
<div><span class=3D"gmail_quote">On 12/20/05, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername"=
><a href=3D"mailto:hohlrauml6d netscape.net">hohlrauml6d@netscape.net</a></=
b> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:hohlrauml6d netscape.net">hohlrauml6d@netscape.net=
</a>
&gt; wrote:</span>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">Finally, someone finds a practic=
al way to use the wasted ICE heat:<br><br><a href=3D"http://www.gizmag.com/=
go/4936/">
http://www.gizmag.com/go/4936/</a><br><br>&quot;The concept uses energy fro=
m the exhaust gasses of the traditional<br>Internal Combustion Engine (ICE)=
 to power a steam engine which also<br>contributes power to the automobile =
? an overall 15 per cent
<br>improvement for the combined drive system.&quot;<br>___________________=
________________________________<br>Try the New Netscape Mail Today!<br>Vir=
tually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List<br><a href=3D"ht=
tp://mail.netscape.com">
http://mail.netscape.com</a><br><br></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all=
"><br>-- <br>&quot;Monsieur l'abb=E9, I detest what you write, but I would =
give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write&quot;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;Voltaire=20

------=_Part_6941_8461666.1135106038552--

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If so, all ya gotta do is make the post heat-exchange exhaust pipe 
bigger.

-----Original Message-----
From: Merlyn

Yup, but do they run into problems with backpressure?
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From: thomas malloy <temalloy usfamily.net>
Subject: energy production method
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Vortexians;

Last week I heard a report about an energy production system that 
utilized argon plasma. Well it is a Mills Catalyst.


--- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---

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From: Harry Veeder <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: BMW ICE Steam Hybrid
In-reply-to: <8C7D3B0B73B837D-1CE8-898F mblkn-m20.sysops.aol.com>
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Perhaps "lost" chi is a kind of backpressure?

Harry 

hohlrauml6d netscape.net wrote:

> If so, all ya gotta do is make the post heat-exchange exhaust pipe
> bigger.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Merlyn
> 
> Yup, but do they run into problems with backpressure?
> ___________________________________________________
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Who does that?

-----Original Message-----
From: leaking pen

becuase...  running a sirling off the heat from the engine coolant and 
block is innefficient?
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On Dec 20, 2005, at 8:50 AM, I wrote:

> The diode effect then essentially comes from the difference in  
> mobility of protons vs OH- through the anode interface layer.

That should say: "The diode effect then essentially comes from the  
difference in mobility of protons through the cathode interface layer  
vs OH- through the anode interface layer."

Continuing this line of thought, if neutral OH is indeed created at  
the anode then OH- is a principle charge carrier of the cell (no  
surprise).  However, this leaves the problem of why there is the lack  
of hydrogen creation at the cathode.  The hydrogen creating cathode  
reaction

   2 H3O+ + 2 e-  ---> H2 + 2 H2O

must be suppressed.  This means H3O+ radicals must be suppressed.   
Additionally, for each charge carried to the anode there must be a  
similar charge carried to the cathode, otherwise electrolyte  
neutrality is not maintained.  Charge density everywhere in an  
electrolyte, except at the interface, is neutral.  Here is another  
candidate reaction for glow creation:

    OH + H3O+  ---> OH+ + H2O

Another is:

    HOOH + H3O+ ---> H2O + HOOH-

There are also a number of other essentially neutral reactions  
involving OH, H2O, and HOOH that must have equilibrium points as  
well.  However, the current is carried and there must be a cation  
reaction at the cathode involving that cation and that does not  
create hydrogen.  A logical reaction is:

    OH+ + e-  --->  H2O

Very strange.  Is it possible that H2O double layer encapsulated OH+  
and OH- ions migrate past each other in the electrolyte without  
annihilation?  Perhaps another candidate for the blue glow is just"

    OH- + OH+ = HOOH

or

    OH- + OH+ = 2 OH

This all seems a bit weird.  However *something* must eliminate H3O+  
from the cathode vicinity.

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leaking pen wrote:
> becuase...  running a sirling off the heat from the engine coolant and 
> block is innefficient?

Who says the actual engines they're using aren't similar to Stirling 
engines?  They pipe the hot fluids to a pair of "expansion units" but 
the article doesn't say what's inside those "units".

In any case recapturing 80% of the exhaust heat sounds pretty impressive 
to me.

Looks like they had a glance at steam locomotives before they designed 
it :-) ... notice that both circuits, low and hi temp, first make steam 
(or should we say "steam" -- not sure it's actually water they're 
boiling!) and then superheat it at the back of the exhaust pipe?  The 
old steam locomotives used a very similar trick, boiling the water and 
then running the steam through the boiler again before using it.  Of 
course the second pass is "upstream" of the first pass in the exhaust 
circuit.

Did you notice the photo of a man holding his hand on the exhaust pipe 
with the engine operating?  Pretty "cool"...

Notice also that both system, low and high temp, use the radiator of the 
car for the "cold reservoir".  The first stage of the low-temp circuit 
appears to suck hot water directly from the engine and dump the heat 
from it into the radiator.  In fact, the diagrams make it appear as 
though there is no longer any direct connection from the engine to the 
radiator.

And elsewhere, Merlyn said:
> Yup, but do they run into problems with backpressure?
> Cooling the exhaust necessitates that it becomes
> denser.  I have heard that backpressure can be a
> problem with exhaust cooling, but do not have the
> references handy.
[Again, that's Merlyn, not LP!]

I would suspect not, for a couple reasons.

First, muffling an engine puts a _lot_ of backpressure on it, and takes 
away about 10% of its power IIRC.  (This is one reason small airplanes 
are often so noisy -- a muffler would be too big a power drain.)  But 
note that they can probably ditch at least one muffler when they put 
this in the exhaust system:  going through a heat exchanger very 
probably has about the same effect on the noise as going over the 
baffles of a conventional muffler.  So, they're most likely trading one 
source of backpressure for another, rather than just adding one.  (I 
assume BMW's normally have more than one muffler, of course!)

Second, boat engines have used water-cooled manifolds for just about 
ever and they apparently work just fine.  No doubt a little power is 
stolen, but that's the only bad consequence AFAIK.  And according to the 
numbers, BMW's seeing a significant increase in power from this, so 
they're clearly reclaiming more energy than they're losing through the 
backpressure increase.

Keep in mind that the "cost" of the backpressure is really just the 
"cost" of pumping the exhaust through the heat-exchanger.  Surely, one 
can arrange a heat-exchanger to extract more heat from hot gasses than 
the pump that operates it consumes; otherwise steam engines couldn't work!


> 
> On 12/20/05, *hohlrauml6d netscape.net 
> <mailto:hohlrauml6d netscape.net>* <hohlrauml6d@netscape.net 
> <mailto:hohlrauml6d netscape.net> > wrote:
> 
>     Finally, someone finds a practical way to use the wasted ICE heat:
> 
>     http://www.gizmag.com/go/4936/
> 
>     "The concept uses energy from the exhaust gasses of the traditional
>     Internal Combustion Engine (ICE) to power a steam engine which also
>     contributes power to the automobile ? an overall 15 per cent
>     improvement for the combined drive system."
>     ___________________________________________________
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> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to 
> make it possible for you to continue to write"  Voltaire

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From: Harry Veeder <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: ZPE, Naked Women and UFOs
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Grimer wrote:


> Of course to do so would out the "unbelievable cruelty"
> of your parents, your own flesh and blood.
> 
> What child wants to face up to that?
> 
> Frank
> 

May be it is a case of parental naivete rather than cruelty.

Harry 

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Grimer sez:

...

> > Yes, I would call it being forced. As a child 
> > what choice did I have but to accept what 
> > my parents felt was best for me and my 
> > education. 
> 
> You could have done what my brother did 
> and cried until you were taken away.
> 

I gather you didn't approve of your brother's tactic.

I'm curious, do you get along with him?

> > You seem speak of physical torture. 
> > I'm speaking of the psychological 
> > damage I witnessed.
> 
> 
> Oh! it's all psychological now is it? How
> convenient. No rack or thumbscrews as tangible
> evidence of abuse.

Psychological abuse is often more tangible and more lasting than physical abuse, particularly when being applied against impressionable children. Surely you've learned that.

> Dearie me - another Prince Edward. Like him, 
> you wouldn't last 5 minutes in the British 
> Marine Commando Corps. Now there you would 
> witness real psychological torture - for 
> the very good reason that people who can't 
> take it aren't going to be much use in battle.
> 
> What you saw as psychological torture others 
> would no doubt see as good old fashioned discipline 
> without which people grow up as self-centered
> effete wastrels.

That's b_ll sh_t. I suspect you disagree.

...

> >  ...you appear to have felt compelled to denigrate 
> >  my parental heritage?
> 
> That's rich. It was you who denigrated your "parental
> heritage" as you put it, by implication. There you were,
> a psychologically frail little child, traumatized by nuns 
> so much that you even have to refer to them obliquely as 
> "penguins", and your parents are so unfeeling as to "force" 
> you to stay at this horrible establishment where in your 
> estimation children are psychologically tortured - parents 
> so unaware of your pain that they don't take you away?
> 
> But as I said - perhaps it is too painful for you to 
> accept that you have traduced your parents.
> 
> Nevertheless, believe it or not, I do sympathise. 
> We can't all live up to parental expectations.  8-)

You don't seem to like my opinions very much, do you.

Suit yourself.

FWIW, I always find it highly revealing of the character of the individual who feels compelled to attack the character of others with endless speculative innuendo.

BTW, you still didn't answer my previous question: Was it my comments about the vast knowledge and expression of Eastern sexuality that exists out there for the pickings that appears to have bothered you enough to speculate on the possibility that I am a pervert?

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

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Frederick Sparber wrote:
> Reminiscent of the early 1940's when a neighbor kid urinated on
> an electric fence,Once.

My first thought on reading this was "Ouch!!".  It reminds me of a tale 
I heard of a drunk taking a leak on the third rail of the subway, for an 
even bigger "ouch".

But my second thought was, "How can this work???  Something's weird here!"

I'm sure we all know what a stream of urine looks like -- sparkly, not 
smooth.  And I expect we all know why: like the ubiquitous displays in 
science museums of a stream of falling water with a strobe light 
flashing on it, which "freezes" the stream as a line of little beads 
when the strobe's set just right, the stream breaks up into droplets 
very early -- long before it would actually hit anything.

So, at the point of contact with the wire, the "stream" is actually a 
line of separate falling drops.  It's not a continuous stream, at all.

But for these tales to be true, the "stream" must conduct electricity.

How can a line of disjoint drops conduct electricity?

Are these stories of disastrous encounters with electric fences and 
third rails all apocryphal, or is there some mechanism by which current 
can flow through a discontiguous line of water droplets?



>  
> Fred
>  
>  
> 
>     ----- Original Message -----
>     *From:* Frederick Sparber <mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net>
>     *To: *vortex-l <mailto:vortex-l eskimo.com>
>     *Sent:* 12/17/2005 5:52:07 AM
>     *Subject:* Re: A Conductive Jet Switch?
> 
>     Since exploding wire technology is employed to maximize energy
>     density, but
>     is slow and cumbersome, why not a jet of electrolyte or metal to
>     effect kilojoule-megajoule
>     energy discharge of capacitor banks?
>     For instance a pool of  Lithium Hydroxide Electrolyte, D2 Gas, or
>     D2O on top  of a Cathode Pool of
>     Mercury with an insulation-sleeved Tungsten-Tipped Anode in a sealed
>     chamber, triggered by
>     electro-hydraulic  actuation of a plunger-orifice device in the pool?
>      
>     Fred

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okay, i hadnt looked that close at the schematics.  you're right, they ARE
using the other waste heat as well.

On 12/20/05, Stephen A. Lawrence <salaw pobox.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> leaking pen wrote:
> > becuase...  running a sirling off the heat from the engine coolant and
> > block is innefficient?
>
> Who says the actual engines they're using aren't similar to Stirling
> engines?  They pipe the hot fluids to a pair of "expansion units" but
> the article doesn't say what's inside those "units".
>
> In any case recapturing 80% of the exhaust heat sounds pretty impressive
> to me.
>
> Looks like they had a glance at steam locomotives before they designed
> it :-) ... notice that both circuits, low and hi temp, first make steam
> (or should we say "steam" -- not sure it's actually water they're
> boiling!) and then superheat it at the back of the exhaust pipe?  The
> old steam locomotives used a very similar trick, boiling the water and
> then running the steam through the boiler again before using it.  Of
> course the second pass is "upstream" of the first pass in the exhaust
> circuit.
>
> Did you notice the photo of a man holding his hand on the exhaust pipe
> with the engine operating?  Pretty "cool"...
>
> Notice also that both system, low and high temp, use the radiator of the
> car for the "cold reservoir".  The first stage of the low-temp circuit
> appears to suck hot water directly from the engine and dump the heat
> from it into the radiator.  In fact, the diagrams make it appear as
> though there is no longer any direct connection from the engine to the
> radiator.
>
> And elsewhere, Merlyn said:
> > Yup, but do they run into problems with backpressure?
> > Cooling the exhaust necessitates that it becomes
> > denser.  I have heard that backpressure can be a
> > problem with exhaust cooling, but do not have the
> > references handy.
> [Again, that's Merlyn, not LP!]
>
> I would suspect not, for a couple reasons.
>
> First, muffling an engine puts a _lot_ of backpressure on it, and takes
> away about 10% of its power IIRC.  (This is one reason small airplanes
> are often so noisy -- a muffler would be too big a power drain.)  But
> note that they can probably ditch at least one muffler when they put
> this in the exhaust system:  going through a heat exchanger very
> probably has about the same effect on the noise as going over the
> baffles of a conventional muffler.  So, they're most likely trading one
> source of backpressure for another, rather than just adding one.  (I
> assume BMW's normally have more than one muffler, of course!)
>
> Second, boat engines have used water-cooled manifolds for just about
> ever and they apparently work just fine.  No doubt a little power is
> stolen, but that's the only bad consequence AFAIK.  And according to the
> numbers, BMW's seeing a significant increase in power from this, so
> they're clearly reclaiming more energy than they're losing through the
> backpressure increase.
>
> Keep in mind that the "cost" of the backpressure is really just the
> "cost" of pumping the exhaust through the heat-exchanger.  Surely, one
> can arrange a heat-exchanger to extract more heat from hot gasses than
> the pump that operates it consumes; otherwise steam engines couldn't work=
!
>
>
> >
> > On 12/20/05, *hohlrauml6d netscape.net
> > <mailto:hohlrauml6d netscape.net>* <hohlrauml6d@netscape.net
> > <mailto:hohlrauml6d netscape.net> > wrote:
> >
> >     Finally, someone finds a practical way to use the wasted ICE heat:
> >
> >     http://www.gizmag.com/go/4936/
> >
> >     "The concept uses energy from the exhaust gasses of the traditional
> >     Internal Combustion Engine (ICE) to power a steam engine which also
> >     contributes power to the automobile ? an overall 15 per cent
> >     improvement for the combined drive system."
> >     ___________________________________________________
> >     Try the New Netscape Mail Today!
> >     Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List
> >     http://mail.netscape.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > "Monsieur l'abb=E9, I detest what you write, but I would give my life t=
o
> > make it possible for you to continue to write"  Voltaire
>
>


--
"Monsieur l'abb=E9, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to ma=
ke
it possible for you to continue to write"  Voltaire

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okay, i hadnt looked that close at the schematics.&nbsp; you're right, they=
 ARE using the other waste heat as well.&nbsp; <br><br>
<div><span class=3D"gmail_quote">On 12/20/05, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername"=
>Stephen A. Lawrence</b> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:salaw pobox.com">salaw@pobox=
.com</a>&gt; wrote:</span>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid"><br><br>leaking pen wrote:<br>&g=
t; becuase...&nbsp;&nbsp;running a sirling off the heat from the engine coo=
lant and<br>
&gt; block is innefficient?<br><br>Who says the actual engines they're usin=
g aren't similar to Stirling<br>engines?&nbsp;&nbsp;They pipe the hot fluid=
s to a pair of &quot;expansion units&quot; but<br>the article doesn't say w=
hat's inside those &quot;units&quot;.
<br><br>In any case recapturing 80% of the exhaust heat sounds pretty impre=
ssive<br>to me.<br><br>Looks like they had a glance at steam locomotives be=
fore they designed<br>it :-) ... notice that both circuits, low and hi temp=
, first make steam
<br>(or should we say &quot;steam&quot; -- not sure it's actually water the=
y're<br>boiling!) and then superheat it at the back of the exhaust pipe?&nb=
sp;&nbsp;The<br>old steam locomotives used a very similar trick, boiling th=
e water and
<br>then running the steam through the boiler again before using it.&nbsp;&=
nbsp;Of<br>course the second pass is &quot;upstream&quot; of the first pass=
 in the exhaust<br>circuit.<br><br>Did you notice the photo of a man holdin=
g his hand on the exhaust pipe
<br>with the engine operating?&nbsp;&nbsp;Pretty &quot;cool&quot;...<br><br=
>Notice also that both system, low and high temp, use the radiator of the<b=
r>car for the &quot;cold reservoir&quot;.&nbsp;&nbsp;The first stage of the=
 low-temp circuit
<br>appears to suck hot water directly from the engine and dump the heat<br=
>from it into the radiator.&nbsp;&nbsp;In fact, the diagrams make it appear=
 as<br>though there is no longer any direct connection from the engine to t=
he<br>
radiator.<br><br>And elsewhere, Merlyn said:<br>&gt; Yup, but do they run i=
nto problems with backpressure?<br>&gt; Cooling the exhaust necessitates th=
at it becomes<br>&gt; denser.&nbsp;&nbsp;I have heard that backpressure can=
 be a<br>
&gt; problem with exhaust cooling, but do not have the<br>&gt; references h=
andy.<br>[Again, that's Merlyn, not LP!]<br><br>I would suspect not, for a =
couple reasons.<br><br>First, muffling an engine puts a _lot_ of backpressu=
re on it, and takes
<br>away about 10% of its power IIRC.&nbsp;&nbsp;(This is one reason small =
airplanes<br>are often so noisy -- a muffler would be too big a power drain=
.)&nbsp;&nbsp;But<br>note that they can probably ditch at least one muffler=
 when they put<br>
this in the exhaust system:&nbsp;&nbsp;going through a heat exchanger very<=
br>probably has about the same effect on the noise as going over the<br>baf=
fles of a conventional muffler.&nbsp;&nbsp;So, they're most likely trading =
one<br>source of backpressure for another, rather than just adding one.&nbs=
p;&nbsp;(I
<br>assume BMW's normally have more than one muffler, of course!)<br><br>Se=
cond, boat engines have used water-cooled manifolds for just about<br>ever =
and they apparently work just fine.&nbsp;&nbsp;No doubt a little power is<b=
r>stolen, but that's the only bad consequence AFAIK.&nbsp;&nbsp;And accordi=
ng to the
<br>numbers, BMW's seeing a significant increase in power from this, so<br>=
they're clearly reclaiming more energy than they're losing through the<br>b=
ackpressure increase.<br><br>Keep in mind that the &quot;cost&quot; of the =
backpressure is really just the
<br>&quot;cost&quot; of pumping the exhaust through the heat-exchanger.&nbs=
p;&nbsp;Surely, one<br>can arrange a heat-exchanger to extract more heat fr=
om hot gasses than<br>the pump that operates it consumes; otherwise steam e=
ngines couldn't work!
<br><br><br>&gt;<br>&gt; On 12/20/05, *<a href=3D"mailto:hohlrauml6d netsca=
pe.net">hohlrauml6d netscape.net</a><br>&gt; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:h=
ohlrauml6d netscape.net">hohlrauml6d@netscape.net</a>&gt;* &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:hohlrauml6d netscape.net">
hohlrauml6d netscape.net</a><br>&gt; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:hohlrauml=
6d netscape.net">hohlrauml6d@netscape.net</a>&gt; &gt; wrote:<br>&gt;<br>&g=
t;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Finally, someone finds a practical way to use th=
e wasted ICE heat:
<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <a href=3D"http://www.gizmag.com/g=
o/4936/">http://www.gizmag.com/go/4936/</a><br>&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp; &quot;The concept uses energy from the exhaust gasses of the tradi=
tional<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Internal Combustion Engine (ICE) to =
power a steam engine which also
<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; contributes power to the automobile ? an o=
verall 15 per cent<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; improvement for the comb=
ined drive system.&quot;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; __________________=
_________________________________<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Try the N=
ew Netscape Mail Today!
<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Impor=
t Your Contact List<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <a href=3D"http://mail.=
netscape.com">http://mail.netscape.com</a><br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<=
br>&gt; --<br>&gt; &quot;Monsieur l'abb=E9, I detest what you write, but I =
would give my life to
<br>&gt; make it possible for you to continue to write&quot;&nbsp;&nbsp;Vol=
taire<br><br></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br>&quot;Mons=
ieur l'abb=E9, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it=
 possible for you to continue to write&quot;&nbsp;&nbsp;Voltaire=20

------=_Part_7690_5353289.1135112206368--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 20 13:29:00 2005
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Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 16:28:16 -0500
From: "Michael Wood, Cincinnati" <michaelwood fuse.net>
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: A Conductive Jet Switch?
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As the listener to a series of stories about electric fences, let me 
assure you, they do hurt when peed on! My grandfather did it once, and 
for the rest of his life, he'd pass down the family wisdom (just about 
the time he opened his third beer) "Boy, don't ever piss on an electric 
fence", he would tell me. It made quite an impression on him, and I 
think from that point forward his interest in women was purely 
gallant--but that may have been because of the heart problems...

The third rail is rather impressive. At 600 volts, DC, and who knows how 
many amps (thousands?) it is dangerous. I worked on the 4th Avenue 
subway reconstruction in Brooklyn in the late eighties, and we would 
light the tunnels with five 120V lamps in series, mounted on a paddle, 
with insulated leads and huge alligator clips. We always placed the 
return before hooking to the live rail, and you could see a spark jump 
as contact was made. I remember about that same time a motorman was 
electrocuted when he came down out of the train in a flooded section of 
track. We paid a lot of attention to it, and were very respectful. 
People do a lot of urinating in the subway tunnels, but not on the third 
rail!

You do get an arc across a single opening, but I don't think you would 
get an arc at medium voltages across multiple openings in the circuit or 
flow. Of course at high voltages, we get incredible arcs--across wide 
spaces and multiple streams--like lightning, for instance. The crucial 
question would be "what voltage"? Once established, an arc will continue 
until such time as the space becomes too long to jump. That's the 
principle we utilize for electric welding. We strike the arc, and then 
back off slightly to create the proper conditions for the transfer of 
metal--although the rod held to the same welding position before an arc 
is struck will not create the "arc-over". To a certain point, 
lengthening the arc increases the heat, at least to my untrained eye.

As to the original question about the electric fence, a flow is needed, 
but it only need be a steady stream between the fence and the sensitive 
parts <gr>. 
Mike Wood, Cincinnati


Stephen A. Lawrence wrote:

>
>
> Frederick Sparber wrote:
>
>> Reminiscent of the early 1940's when a neighbor kid urinated on
>> an electric fence,Once.
>
>
> My first thought on reading this was "Ouch!!".  It reminds me of a 
> tale I heard of a drunk taking a leak on the third rail of the subway, 
> for an even bigger "ouch".
>
> But my second thought was, "How can this work???  Something's weird 
> here!"
>
> I'm sure we all know what a stream of urine looks like -- sparkly, not 
> smooth.  And I expect we all know why: like the ubiquitous displays in 
> science museums of a stream of falling water with a strobe light 
> flashing on it, which "freezes" the stream as a line of little beads 
> when the strobe's set just right, the stream breaks up into droplets 
> very early -- long before it would actually hit anything.
>
> So, at the point of contact with the wire, the "stream" is actually a 
> line of separate falling drops.  It's not a continuous stream, at all.
>
> But for these tales to be true, the "stream" must conduct electricity.
>
> How can a line of disjoint drops conduct electricity?
>
> Are these stories of disastrous encounters with electric fences and 
> third rails all apocryphal, or is there some mechanism by which 
> current can flow through a discontiguous line of water droplets?
>
>
>
>>  
>> Fred
>>  
>>  
>>
>>     ----- Original Message -----
>>     *From:* Frederick Sparber <mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net>
>>     *To: *vortex-l <mailto:vortex-l eskimo.com>
>>     *Sent:* 12/17/2005 5:52:07 AM
>>     *Subject:* Re: A Conductive Jet Switch?
>>
>>     Since exploding wire technology is employed to maximize energy
>>     density, but
>>     is slow and cumbersome, why not a jet of electrolyte or metal to
>>     effect kilojoule-megajoule
>>     energy discharge of capacitor banks?
>>     For instance a pool of  Lithium Hydroxide Electrolyte, D2 Gas, or
>>     D2O on top  of a Cathode Pool of
>>     Mercury with an insulation-sleeved Tungsten-Tipped Anode in a sealed
>>     chamber, triggered by
>>     electro-hydraulic  actuation of a plunger-orifice device in the 
>> pool?
>>          Fred
>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 20 14:31:20 2005
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
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Subject: Re: A Conductive Jet Switch?
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Stephen.

The pee exit height (PEH) of a kid aiming the stream upward to achieve
contact
with an electric fence allows for a solid stream as opposed to a falling
gravity-accelerated stream that puts  the stream in tensile stress, causing
break-up into droplets.
High conductivity too, if the electrolytes are up to par.

Sort of an Arc de Triumph kind of thing.

You can see the effect of tensile stress on a falling stream at the faucet.

Fred


> [Original Message]
> From: Michael Wood, Cincinnati <michaelwood fuse.net>
> To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> Date: 12/20/2005 2:28:47 PM
> Subject: Re: A Conductive Jet Switch?
>
> As the listener to a series of stories about electric fences, let me 
> assure you, they do hurt when peed on! My grandfather did it once, and 
> for the rest of his life, he'd pass down the family wisdom (just about 
> the time he opened his third beer) "Boy, don't ever piss on an electric 
> fence", he would tell me. It made quite an impression on him, and I 
> think from that point forward his interest in women was purely 
> gallant--but that may have been because of the heart problems...
>
> The third rail is rather impressive. At 600 volts, DC, and who knows how 
> many amps (thousands?) it is dangerous. I worked on the 4th Avenue 
> subway reconstruction in Brooklyn in the late eighties, and we would 
> light the tunnels with five 120V lamps in series, mounted on a paddle, 
> with insulated leads and huge alligator clips. We always placed the 
> return before hooking to the live rail, and you could see a spark jump 
> as contact was made. I remember about that same time a motorman was 
> electrocuted when he came down out of the train in a flooded section of 
> track. We paid a lot of attention to it, and were very respectful. 
> People do a lot of urinating in the subway tunnels, but not on the third 
> rail!
>
> You do get an arc across a single opening, but I don't think you would 
> get an arc at medium voltages across multiple openings in the circuit or 
> flow. Of course at high voltages, we get incredible arcs--across wide 
> spaces and multiple streams--like lightning, for instance. The crucial 
> question would be "what voltage"? Once established, an arc will continue 
> until such time as the space becomes too long to jump. That's the 
> principle we utilize for electric welding. We strike the arc, and then 
> back off slightly to create the proper conditions for the transfer of 
> metal--although the rod held to the same welding position before an arc 
> is struck will not create the "arc-over". To a certain point, 
> lengthening the arc increases the heat, at least to my untrained eye.
>
> As to the original question about the electric fence, a flow is needed, 
> but it only need be a steady stream between the fence and the sensitive 
> parts <gr>. 
> Mike Wood, Cincinnati
>
>
> Stephen A. Lawrence wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Frederick Sparber wrote:
> >
> >> Reminiscent of the early 1940's when a neighbor kid urinated on
> >> an electric fence,Once.
> >
> >
> > My first thought on reading this was "Ouch!!".  It reminds me of a 
> > tale I heard of a drunk taking a leak on the third rail of the subway, 
> > for an even bigger "ouch".
> >
> > But my second thought was, "How can this work???  Something's weird 
> > here!"
> >
> > I'm sure we all know what a stream of urine looks like -- sparkly, not 
> > smooth.  And I expect we all know why: like the ubiquitous displays in 
> > science museums of a stream of falling water with a strobe light 
> > flashing on it, which "freezes" the stream as a line of little beads 
> > when the strobe's set just right, the stream breaks up into droplets 
> > very early -- long before it would actually hit anything.
> >
> > So, at the point of contact with the wire, the "stream" is actually a 
> > line of separate falling drops.  It's not a continuous stream, at all.
> >
> > But for these tales to be true, the "stream" must conduct electricity.
> >
> > How can a line of disjoint drops conduct electricity?
> >
> > Are these stories of disastrous encounters with electric fences and 
> > third rails all apocryphal, or is there some mechanism by which 
> > current can flow through a discontiguous line of water droplets?
> >
> >
> >
> >>  
> >> Fred
> >>  
> >>  
> >>
> >>     ----- Original Message -----
> >>     *From:* Frederick Sparber <mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net>
> >>     *To: *vortex-l <mailto:vortex-l eskimo.com>
> >>     *Sent:* 12/17/2005 5:52:07 AM
> >>     *Subject:* Re: A Conductive Jet Switch?
> >>
> >>     Since exploding wire technology is employed to maximize energy
> >>     density, but
> >>     is slow and cumbersome, why not a jet of electrolyte or metal to
> >>     effect kilojoule-megajoule
> >>     energy discharge of capacitor banks?
> >>     For instance a pool of  Lithium Hydroxide Electrolyte, D2 Gas, or
> >>     D2O on top  of a Cathode Pool of
> >>     Mercury with an insulation-sleeved Tungsten-Tipped Anode in a
sealed
> >>     chamber, triggered by
> >>     electro-hydraulic  actuation of a plunger-orifice device in the 
> >> pool?
> >>          Fred
> >
> >
> >



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 20 16:35:15 2005
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From: Horace Heffner <hheffner mtaonline.net>
Subject: Re: weird glow from aluminum in baking soda solution
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 15:33:43 -0900
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The diode effect must essentially come from the difference in  
mobility of protons through the cathode interface layer vs OH-  
through the anode interface layer.

Continuing this line of thought, and the bumbling and stumbling  
around, if neutral OH is indeed created at the anode then OH- is a  
principle charge carrier of the cell, but possibly only in the close  
proximity to the anode.  The standard (net) oxygen creating anode  
reaction, hydronium reduction, is:

    4 OH-  ---> 2 H2O + O2 + 4 e-      (anode)

The (net) hydrogen creating cathode reaction is

   2 H3O+ + 2 e-  ---> H2 + 2 H2O       (cathode)


I have run a cell using full wave rectified DC and having a aluminum  
anode preconditioned with AC in a 0.1 M Na2SiO3 electrolyte.  The  
anode glow was sustained on the anode and no glow was present on the  
cathode.  Gas production was less than similar DC between two Pb  
electrodes, for similar current, if I recall correctly.  I don't see  
any sensible way the gas generated per amp-second could be changed,  
so I have to question my recollection on this.  There is no clear  
reason for a change in Faradaic efficiency, especially a *reduction*  
in Faradaic efficiency.  The only means I can see for this would be a  
conduction path for electrons, and no substantial path for electrons  
apparently exists.

It *does* still seem reasonable that a barrier to ions between the  
cathode surface and the electrolyte would force the anode current to  
mostly involve:

    OH- ---> OH + e-

and this reaction would offhand seem to require substantial  
penetration of the anode interface layer by the hydroxyl radical  
OH-.  Other anions would seem to be less likely to make the exchange  
due to large size.

At this point it seems reasonable that the stripping of the electron  
possibly occurs with great frequency when the hydroxyl radical is  
separated from the anode by the first atomic layer of the anode  
interface.  This effect could only happen in the presence of a  
screening layer that prevents current flowing from the anode to the  
electrolyte via positively charged metal ions. Such an ion current  
would reduce the voltage drop across the interface to a few volts.   
With the ion screen in place, only electron motion can make the  
current flow.  Given a voltage drop across the interface of 200 V,  
and a thickness of the nonconducting layer near the anode as 20  
angstroms, the electrostatic field would be 2x10^12 V/m.  This should  
be plenty strong enough to strip an electron from the OH- and drive  
it as a free electron through the water molecules of the interface.   
Such an ionizing influence would have the power to  disassociate  
water, and subsequently cause the recombining of the products.   
Therefore, recombination may well be the cause of the blue-green  
glow.  This would explain why the color of the glow on Al and Zr  
anodes is the same color.

It seems this set of assumptions explains the known results, other  
than my recollection of a reduced Faradaic efficiency, a recollection  
which may well be flawed.

This free electron regime may possibly facilitate electron catalyzed  
fusion.  Have we been paying attention to the wrong electrode?

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 20 17:10:30 2005
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Does anyone know of any other publicly-traded company or subsidiary besides 
D2Fusion that exists which is exclusively geared toward R&D or 
commercialization of cold fusion?

Thank you,

Steve

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From: Horace Heffner <hheffner mtaonline.net>
Subject: Re: weird glow from aluminum in baking soda solution
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 16:47:45 -0900
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On Dec 20, 2005, at 3:33 PM, I wrote:

> Given a voltage drop across the interface of 200 V, and a thickness  
> of the nonconducting layer near the anode as 20 angstroms, the  
> electrostatic field would be 2x10^12 V/m.

This should have said: "Given a voltage drop across the interface of  
120 V, and a thickness of the nonconducting layer near the anode as 4  
angstroms, the electrostatic field would be 3x10^11 V/m, or over 30 V/ 
(hydrogen atomic radius)."

OK, so there is a short version of this answer.

On Dec 19, 2005, at 9:50 AM, William Beaty wrote:

> In a dark room, the electrodes glow.
>
> See  <http://home.earthlink.net/~lenyr/borax.htm>
>
> What is the mechanism?

An aluminum oxide layer grows on the surface of the electrodes to a  
thickness which prevent ion flow to or from the electrode.  This  
layer passes electrons however, either through conduction or through  
tunneling.  The effect of this layer is to create a zone free of  
ions, and having a very strong electric field, about 300 trillion  
volts per meter.  Current to the anode is conveyed by electrons  
stripped from negative ions in the electrolyte and which accelerate  
and disrupt water molecules in the ion free zone on their way to the  
anode.  The products of this disruption, various forms of hydrogen  
and oxygen, then recombine to form water, and in the process of  
recombination emit the characteristic blue-green glow of this  
recombination.

Hopefully this is a correct answer.  However, as a response from an  
unqualified and doddering old amateur, it is not to be trusted! 8^)

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Sometimes I can't get anything right!  Sorry.  One more time ...

On Dec 19, 2005, at 9:50 AM, William Beaty wrote:

> In a dark room, the electrodes glow.
>
> See  <http://home.earthlink.net/~lenyr/borax.htm>
>
> What is the mechanism?

An aluminum oxide layer grows on the surface of the electrodes to a  
thickness which prevent ion flow to or from the electrode.  This  
layer passes electrons however, either through conduction or through  
tunneling.  The effect of this layer is to create a zone free of  
ions, and having a very strong electric field, about 300 billion  
volts per meter.  Current to the anode is conveyed by electrons  
stripped from negative ions in the electrolyte and which accelerate  
and disrupt water molecules in the ion free zone on their way to the  
anode.  The products of this disruption, various forms of hydrogen  
and oxygen, then recombine to form water, and in the process of  
recombination emit the characteristic blue-green glow of this  
recombination.

The ion free layer, the anode "interface", creates a diode effect.   
The diode effect comes from the difference in the high mobility of  
protons through the cathode interface layer vs the low mobility of  
big negative ions through the anode interface layer.

Hopefully this is a correct answer.  However, as a response from an  
unqualified and doddering old amateur, it is not to be trusted! 8^)


Regards,

Horace Heffner

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Fredick Spaber posted

>
>"Sir Richard Bransonís Virgin Galactic space travel company has 
>ironed out an agreement to utilize a futuristic spaceport to be 
>built in New Mexico, with first flights

One of the interviewees on C to C AM said that Sir Richard's proposed 
design for the New Mexico space port involves several hundred of 
millions of dollars worth of excavation. Part of this investment is 
Sir Richard's, but the state of New Mexico is putting up a 
significant sum too. This begs the question of which way Sir Richard 
wants to go, alternatively, perhaps some of the customers will come 
from the underground.


--- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---


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Various posters on this thread suggested burying the biomass and then 
waiting for it to be digested into methane. I would like to suggest 
that engineered bioreactors and enzymes taylored to the specific job 
would be a more efficient way of fuel production. My friend told me 
about a process for converting corn stocks into ethanol, which may 
have been the same or a similar method discussed in a threat on this 
group last fall.

>You have the right idea... But not much biomass around them, eh?  To make
>the logistics cost effective, proximity to population concentrations is
>essential.



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Steven Krivit wrote:
> Does anyone know of any other publicly-traded company or subsidiary 
> besides D2Fusion that exists which is exclusively geared toward R&D or 
> commercialization of cold fusion?

No, but I have another question for anyone who can answer it.

On the front page to D2Fusion,

http://www.d2fusion.com/

I noticed that they say of cold fusion that it was:

> First discovered in the 1930s then re-discovered and announced in
> 1989,

Furthermore, in a paper Jed posted a few days back,

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/ArataYdevelopmenb.pdf

there was a reference to a "thermonuclear fusion experiment" in Japan in 
1933 which apparently wasn't pursued because they couldn't buy 
deuterium. Jed said he had no idea what this was in reference to; could 
it have been connected in some way to whatever the D2Fusion page is 
referring to?

What, exactly, happened with fusion research, cold or hot, in the 
1930's?  As far as I knew, fusion research didn't start until much later 
than that, but these two references seem to suggest that the groundwork 
for cold fusion was laid at that time.  (Has this been discussed on 
Vortex before?  I did a quick lookup on Google for fusion and 1933 
without turning up anything interesting, and scanned back over the last 
couple years of Vortex looking for subjects containing d2fusion and 
didn't find anything more.)

Fission reactor work started in the 1930's, of course, and the Nazis 
started working on a nuclear bomb some time in the late 1930's or early 
1940's, but aside from the references in that paper and website, I've 
never heard anything about any kind of actual fusion experiments in the 
1930's.


Jed posted an
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> Steve
> 
> 

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From: "Jones Beene" <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
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References: <6.2.0.14.2.20051220170217.02896760 mail.newenergytimes.com> <43A8C497.2080003@pobox.com>
Subject: Zep madness: was  First Publicly Traded Cold Fusion Company
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 19:27:21 -0800
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Stephen,

> Furthermore, in a paper Jed posted a few days back, there was a 
> reference to a "thermonuclear fusion experiment" in Japan in 
> 1933... Jed said he had no idea what this was in reference to... 
> What, exactly, happened with fusion research, cold or hot, in 
> the 1930's?

This was the heyday of lighter-than-air trans-Atlantic transport. 
i.e. the Zeps (non-Led). Helium was a USA monopoly then, a 
thousand times greater in the supply/demand equation than OPEC has 
the oil market gripped today (by the short hair comparison).

Even before the Hindenburg's fiery death, Helium was seen as the 
safest solution for LTA. Everybody else in the world was trying to 
"manufacture" it from deuterium (to give you an idea about how 
'precious' it was in the 30s). The energy was incidental to the 
use as an LTA replacement. The USA essentially had all the 
helium - for whatever strange geological reason.

This curious historical situation is yet another aspect of 
time-based "relativity" ?

Jones


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Subject: Re: anisotropic universe
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That particular work has been something of a muse for
me over the past couple of years.  The universe as an
optically active system can offer a number of avenues
for correlation - some of which are interesting, some
of which are VERY risky.  Some of the wild tangents it
offers, in stream of consciousness format:

The universe as a chiral optically active lattice. 
HMMMMM!

Shades of Nikolai Kozyrev - time as a physical entity
with chirality!

I still have not suitably explained some of the
milligram weight transients I used to see with
vibrated or agitated chiral masses.

A chiral universe would have an optical axis. 
Actually, I have been told that from an earth based
observer, the axis would appear to extend from Sextans
to Cygnus (or was that Aquila?)  Anyway, if you point
at the constellation Sextans, you are close to one end
of it.  Which is near Leo.

Optical axis - the true Axis Mundi?  Some of the
research by Spottiswoode et al said that levels of psi
in test subjects increased during a particular period
of the sidereal day, which I've since found also
corresponds to Leo / Sextans being overhead. 
Something flowing through the earth and living systems
on it from that axis?

A chiral universe would be one that might offer some
added incentive to take Uncle Al up on his dare:

http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/eotvos.htm

And if there had ever been anything to those
gyroscopic weight anisotropies, it might offer a new
path of consideration for modelling.

But alas - if my understanding of the cosmic chirality
is correct... the universe is a sinister place.  :)

nr



--- thomas malloy <temalloy usfamily.net> wrote:

> Vortexians;
> 
> I'm wondering if I understand the author's thesis.
> Light propagated 
> at directions other than on a certain axis rotates
> in a certain 
> direction, depending on the amount of deviation from
> that axis.
> 
>
http://www.cc.rochester.edu/College/RTC/Borge/aniso.html
> 
> 
> --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! --
> http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---
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> 


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Subject: Re: weird glow from aluminum in baking soda solution
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On Tue, 20 Dec 2005, Michael Foster wrote:

> I don't think its accurate to refer to this as electroluminescence.
> It's more like electro-scintillation.  If you look at the electrode
> under about 40X magnification, it resembles a swarm of fireflies.

Anodized aluminum has a VERY weird structure; columnar holes like a bee's
honeycomb.  I wonder if any aluminum parts would have this structure, or
if the structure is created during the experiment? See an SEM photo:

  http://www.caswellplating.com/kits/aluminum.htm

I could see how gas pockets could easily develop inside those "tubes,"
while with other metals convection might operate to carry away the
gas-loaded solution before bubbles would start to grow.

Does only aluminum produce the light, or are there other metals too?




Also... whenever electrochemistry is concerned, I always wonder if
hyperthermophilic nanobacteria have involved themselves.  They specialize
in feeding off a variety of chemical reactions, and they're so small that
they don't show up in most SEM photos.  Also, everything in our world is
infected by the things, and they can't be killed by autoclaves, etc. (but
certain chemical sterilization techniques work.)   So, if all the
materials involved in this experiment could be guaranteed to be free of
nanobacterial contamination, would the experiment still produce light?

Heh.  For that matter, do palladium cathodes require unnoticed
cavity-dwelling nanobacteria colonies in order to produce excess heat?

:)



> Most of the light given off is apparently in the UV.  If you add a
> fluorescent dye to the electrolyte you get a much brighter display.

HA!  I was wondering if that would happen.  If a jet of dyed water was
sprayed across the plate, the fluorescence might brightly show off the
fluid flow patterns in the boundary layer.

> And  of course, you can choose the color you want.  Fluorescein or
> rhodamine 6G work nicely.

I wonder if the UV output is nitrogen emission lines (or argon lines as
happens with sonoluminescence.)



(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb at amasci com                         http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair
Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci

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On Dec 19, 2005, at 8:48 PM, Michael Foster wrote:
>
> I don't think its accurate to refer to this as electroluminescence.
> It's more like electro-scintillation.  If you look at the electrode
> under about 40X magnification, it resembles a swarm of fireflies.
> Most of the light given off is apparently in the UV.  If you add a
> fluorescent dye to the electrolyte you get a much brighter display.
> And  of course, you can choose the color you want.  Fluorescein or
> rhodamine 6G work nicely.

It just dawned on me that the above nicely describes the  
*electrospark* regime.  When you push the voltage way beyond the  
initial blue glow stage, you get the blue glow punctuated with little  
flashes that dance all around the electrode.  Noise can be heard in  
the cell too.  If the regime is pushed even higher the spots can fix  
on the electrodes and really dig into it, reducing in apparent  
quantity, reducing the blue glow, and making sludge in the bottom of  
the cell.  When the electrospark regime begins the V vs T  
oscilloscope trace changes significantly.  Lots of tiny spikes appear  
superimposed over the trace.  It is as if the trace develops little  
hairs.  My impression is the spikes are due to sparks penetrating the  
insulating oxide.  In the initial stages the spark loci heal  
immediately, so the sparks dance all around.  I don't know that they  
would dance all around if highly regulated DC were used, however.  I  
used AC and half or full wave rectified DC.  I also experimented with  
a bypass capacitor to enhance the spark initiated oscillations.

It may be of side interest that a strong magnetic field seemed on  
occasion to make the fixed spots more intense and dig in too, and  
even caused spots to form on the back side of the electrode where  
they normally did not form.  My impression is the blue glow is  
reduced when strong fixed spots appear.  The electrospark regime is  
destructive to electrodes long term.  The blue glow regime can be run  
indefinitely.

Regards,

Horace Heffner

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Subject: Re: First Publicly Traded Cold Fusion Company
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On Dec 20, 2005, at 5:57 PM, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote:

>
>
> What, exactly, happened with fusion research, cold or hot, in the  
> 1930's?  As far as I knew, fusion research didn't start until much  
> later than that, but these two references seem to suggest that the  
> groundwork for cold fusion was laid at that time.

Check out Wikipedia: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ 
Cold_fusion#Early_work>
"The special ability of palladium to absorb hydrogen was recognized  
in the 19th century. In the late 1920s, two German scientists, Fritz  
Paneth and Kurt Peters, reported the transformation of hydrogen into  
helium by spontaneous nuclear catalysis when hydrogen is absorbed by  
finely divided palladium at room temperature. These authors later  
acknowledged that the helium they measured was due to background from  
the air or the glassware they used.

In 1927, Swedish scientist John Tandberg said that he had fused  
hydrogen into helium in an electrolytic cell with palladium  
electrodes. On the basis of his work he applied for a Swedish patent  
for "a method to produce helium and useful reaction energy". After  
deuterium was discovered in 1932, Tandberg continued his experiments  
with heavy water. Due to Paneth and Peters' retraction, Tandberg's  
patent application was eventually denied."

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>>- What does computational irreducibility mean for supercomputing?
>>
>>- Is there an algorithm for telling if an object was designed?

Would such an algorithm prove the existence of a designer of life?

>>
>>- Will the most important nanomaterials be intrinsically random?

I fail to understand how a random material could be anything other 
than a mishmash of atoms.


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R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk wrote:
> VO,
> Perhaps they need a centrally administered site across the web, some kind of
> extra-national thing providing bona-fides for web interactions. One would
> register with conventional documents such as drivers license, passport etc.
> and you'd log on to it (some generated bit string unique to oneself) before
> doing any secured site surfing to say you are currently on the net, the
> secured site would then quiz it to find out who you were no matter what the
> moniker?
> 
> Just a guess without thinking things through. A sort of centralised
> repository of names, webs, computer serial numbers etc. If you don't sign
> up, you don't play.

Um ... wouldn't this make identity theft awfully easy?

How would you feed it the "generated bit string"?  If it's secure, it's 
too long to type by hand, and a program would have to do it for you. 
Now suppose your system picks up a Trojan horse that just knows how to 
sniff for those bit strings ... oops.

Even worse, assume for a moment that the central system's security isn't 
perfect, and somebody makes off with a snapshot of the database...

Also keep in mind that every real-world financial database which 
requires an ID of some sort also has a back door, because losing the key 
could be a disaster otherwise.  Mother's maiden name plus last four 
digits of your SS number is the most common one.  So, if someone got a 
copy of the central database, they could get into all the accounts using 
the back doors, whether or not there was a whizzbang public/private key 
supposedly keeping it all buttoned up.

Central identity databases of any sort are scary.  That's one reason 
states and colleges don't (or can't) generally force you to use your SS 
number as your driver or student ID number.


> 
> Sleepy and dozy at the moment so point the flaws out please. Might be back
> Tuesday.
> Remi.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On
> Behalf Of William Beaty
> Sent: 17 December 2005 04:11
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: Re: Correa attacks Wikipedia
> 
> On Fri, 16 Dec 2005, Rhong Dhong wrote:
> 
> 
>>At the moment then, requiring an email address to be
>>confirmed may not mean that the subscriber can be
>>traced.
> 
> 
> Where anonymity is banned (or where money is involved,) some places refuse
> to honor yahoo.com email addresses or other free email services for
> confirmations.   Then you have to search for a free email service which
> the forum owners haven't added to their exclude list.

Sometimes they ban fee-for-service email addresses like PObox, as well. 
  And then I ban them and take my money elsewhere.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 21 10:09:15 2005
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From: hohlrauml6d netscape.net
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But you miss Wolfram's whole point.  He says you cannot reverse 
engineer the universe.  You must use CA to explore the universe 
experimentally.  You write the program and see what it generates.  THAT 
is the NKS.

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Carrell

As for not being able to discover the seed, consider the Mandelbrot Set.
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 21 10:13:17 2005
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Can we please have an immediate moratorium on all further discussions
related to theology here?

This is a SCIENCE list... You know, stuff that can be proven/disproved;
physics, math, research, technology, experiments, etc.  

Respectfully.  -john

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--=====================_12671562==.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

Grimer wrote:

>At 10:42 am 21/12/2005 -0500, you wrote:
> >Mike Carrell wrote:
>
> >>The Lord works in mysterious ways.
> >
> >Jed: He would if he existed, but he doesn't so he doesn't.
>
>Frank; Yes he does.
>
>Jed: No he doesn't . . .

It was not a loop! You are missing my point. Even if it is the Lord 
who works, his ways are not mysterious. Each and every mechanism in 
nature appears to be comprehensible to man. So far we have not 
discovered any mysteries that appear to be unsolvable.

Perhaps in 100 million years or so we will finally run up against the 
limits of our imagination and skill, and even our super intelligent 
computers will not be able to work out the laws of physics beyond a 
certain level of detail. That might happen, but I doubt it. I expect 
that Jefferson was correct when he predicted that knowledge and 
well-being will advance, "not infinitely, as some have said, but 
indefinitely, and to a term which no one can fix and foresee." 
Knowledge resembles Einstein's universe: it is finite but unbounded.

I realize that Wolfram's hypothesis is that the complexity cannot be 
"reverse engineered" back to the starting point, just as cellular 
automata or trapdoor cryptographic code cannot be reverted to the 
starting point. But I disagree. (As it happens, one of the most vital 
NSA and commercial cryptographic algorithms -- which people thought 
would never be compromised -- has just fallen prey to a clever 
Chinese researcher at Tsinghua U, rah, rah! See: 
http://www.newscientist.com/channel/info-tech/mg18825301.600)

- Jed

--=====================_12671562==.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
<body>
Grimer wrote:<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">At 10:42 am 21/12/2005 -0500,
you wrote:<br>
&gt;Mike Carrell wrote:<br><br>
&gt;&gt;The Lord works in mysterious ways.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Jed: He would if he existed, but he doesn't so he doesn't.<br><br>
Frank; Yes he does.<br><br>
Jed: No he doesn't . . .</blockquote><br>
It was not a loop! You are missing my point. Even if it is the Lord who
works, his ways are not mysterious. Each and every mechanism in nature
appears to be comprehensible to man. So far we have not discovered any
mysteries that appear to be unsolvable.<br><br>
Perhaps in 100 million years or so we will finally run up against the
limits of our imagination and skill, and even our super intelligent
computers will not be able to work out the laws of physics beyond a
certain level of detail. That might happen, but I doubt it. I expect that
Jefferson was correct when he predicted that knowledge and well-being
will advance, &quot;not <i>infinitely</i>, as some have said, but
<i>indefinitely</i>, and to a term which no one can fix and
foresee.&quot; Knowledge resembles Einstein's universe: it is finite but
unbounded.<br><br>
I realize that Wolfram's hypothesis is that the complexity cannot be
&quot;reverse engineered&quot; back to the starting point, just as
cellular automata or trapdoor cryptographic code cannot be reverted to
the starting point. But I disagree. (As it happens, one of the most vital
NSA and commercial cryptographic algorithms -- which people thought would
never be compromised -- has just fallen prey to a clever Chinese
researcher at Tsinghua U, rah, rah! See:
<a href="http://www.newscientist.com/channel/info-tech/mg18825301.600" eudora="autourl">
http://www.newscientist.com/channel/info-tech/mg18825301.600</a>)<br><br>
- Jed<br>
</body>
</html>

--=====================_12671562==.ALT--


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 21 10:35:15 2005
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http://www.automotive.com/features/90/auto-news/17333/index.html

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CANTON, Mass., Dec. 20 /PRNewswire/ -- An alternative electric power 
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non- animal organism -- such as a tree."

<more>
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Grimer wrote:
> At 10:42 am 21/12/2005 -0500, you wrote:
> 
>>Mike Carrell wrote:
> 
> 
>>>The Lord works in mysterious ways.
>>
>>Jed: He would if he existed, but he doesn't so he doesn't.
> 
> 
> Frank; Yes he does.
> 
> Jed: No he doesn't 
> 
> F: Yes he does.
> 
> J: No he doesn't. 
> 
> F: Yes he does.
> 
> J: No he doesn't.
> 
> F: Yes he does a thousand times and no returns.
> 
> Ah! that takes me right back to my 
> school playground when we were 5.   8-)

There are valid methods for determining the likely provenance of sacred 
texts.  There are valid methods for determining certain details of how 
ancient manuscripts were constructed.  There are, in fact, valid 
arguments that may eventually lead to an almost certainly correct 
solution to the synoptic problem.  (Actually I think the solution to 
that one's already clear, but like cold fusion, the academic 
establishment has largely rejected it FWTW.)  Hence, arguments over such 
things could plausibly be considered appropriate for a science-oriented 
discussion group.

But the statement that "God exists" is too vague to be testable (i.e, no 
matter what facts were discovered, for any imagined experiment no matter 
how impractical, it could never be proved false) and hence there are no 
valid arguments on either side of that particular issue, which puts it 
clearly off-topic.

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Well John, I agree with you that discussions of theology can be a waste 
of time because no amount of discussion will change a viewpoint. 
Actually, such discussions are similar to those involving theory in 
science.  Nevertheless, such opinions are important to understand 
because theological beliefs are having increasing influence on science 
and on the way society is developing.  People contributing their beliefs 
on this forum are a typical cross-section of the population, hence give 
an understanding of the beliefs that are influencing policy.  Granted, 
none of these beliefs can be changed by discussion, but understanding 
them can help a person plan for and/or predict the future we all will 
experience whether we like it or not.  Self fulfilling prophecies do 
actually exist and we are seeing one develop now independent of any 
religious requirement.  As has happened repeatedly in the past, beliefs, 
religious and otherwise, guide history even though these beliefs are 
later shown to be entirely wrong.  Nevertheless, the harm has been done. 
  The challenge is to personally avoid the harm these false beliefs produce.

Regards,
Ed

John Steck wrote:

> Can we please have an immediate moratorium on all further discussions
> related to theology here?
> 
> This is a SCIENCE list... You know, stuff that can be proven/disproved;
> physics, math, research, technology, experiments, etc.  
> 
> Respectfully.  -john
> 
> 

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Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 11:57:55 -0800 (PST)
From: Merlyn <merlyn_3k yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Space Tourist Trade
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The concept artist who drew that doesn't seem to have
a very good grasp of the concept.
Virgin has licensed Burt Rutan's Spaceship One, which
is shown in the concept rendering.  What is not shown
is the White Knight craft which carries Spaceship One
to launch height.
White Knight needs a standard length runway for
takeoff, and both pretty much require a normal runway
for landing.  This means that your space-port
functions under similar design constraints as a
standard mid-size airport.  I can think of some
practical construction reasons to build underground,
and if it were a vertical takeoff spaceship I can see
excavation for exhaust tunnels, but I can't see any
practical usage reasons for this design.

BTW the iris is from the new Virgin Galactic Logo.

PS oops.  I went through Space.com and found the full
article, which has an additional graphic, which does
show White Knight, as well as a regular sized
airstrip.  I still don't understand why he  sank the
passenger hub underground.

--- hohlrauml6d netscape.net wrote:

> No, the spaceport control center will be below grade
> as is indicated in 
> this cross section view.  The plan view looks like a
> human iris and 
> pupil:
> 
> http://tinyurl.com/cjsjf
> 
> The location is not far from the alleged crash site
> of 1947 fame.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: thomas malloy
> 
> One of the interviewees on C to C AM said that Sir
> Richard's proposed 
> design for the New Mexico space port involves
> several hundred of 
> millions of dollars worth of excavation. Part of
> this investment is Sir 
> Richard's, but the state of New Mexico is putting up
> a significant sum 
> too. This begs the question of which way Sir Richard
> wants to go, 
> alternatively, perhaps some of the customers will
> come from the 
> underground. 
> ___________________________________________________
> Try the New Netscape Mail Today!
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> Contact List
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> 


Merlyn
Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist

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From: "John Steck" <johnsteck tetrahelix.com>
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Subject: RE: GENERAL REQUEST
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 14:21:58 -0600
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I really don't care what anyone 'believes'.  This discussion group is about
what anyone can 'prove'.  At least it used to be...  Keep going down this
path and you might as well invite Newman back, or that idiot shill of his,
or the Whirlpower knuckleheads, etc.

Discussions regarding scientific theory are valid if it is the premise for
an experiment or the basis for research.  There are creative writing classes
at the local community college that would be a better venue for that other
tripe.

Just cut it out already.

-j



-----Original Message-----
From: Edmund Storms [mailto:storms2 ix.netcom.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 1:30 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: GENERAL REQUEST


Well John, I agree with you that discussions of theology can be a waste 
of time because no amount of discussion will change a viewpoint. 
Actually, such discussions are similar to those involving theory in 
science.  Nevertheless, such opinions are important to understand 
because theological beliefs are having increasing influence on science 
and on the way society is developing.  People contributing their beliefs 
on this forum are a typical cross-section of the population, hence give 
an understanding of the beliefs that are influencing policy.  Granted, 
none of these beliefs can be changed by discussion, but understanding 
them can help a person plan for and/or predict the future we all will 
experience whether we like it or not.  Self fulfilling prophecies do 
actually exist and we are seeing one develop now independent of any 
religious requirement.  As has happened repeatedly in the past, beliefs, 
religious and otherwise, guide history even though these beliefs are 
later shown to be entirely wrong.  Nevertheless, the harm has been done. 
  The challenge is to personally avoid the harm these false beliefs produce.

Regards,
Ed

John Steck wrote:

> Can we please have an immediate moratorium on all further discussions 
> related to theology here?
> 
> This is a SCIENCE list... You know, stuff that can be 
> proven/disproved; physics, math, research, technology, experiments, etc.
> 
> Respectfully.  -john
> 
> 


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 21 12:32:15 2005
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From: Zachary Jones <zak newalexandria.org>
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Reading this and similar reports, I get the same feeling I did when I first was
exposed to Reich's work.  The feeling has been the same every time I've seen
work in this vein:

What is the characteristic of impact that will occur to the ecosystem?

If we are drawing electricity / energy that is being brought about via the
ecosystem, then what how will drawing that potential off impact it?  it seems
like it will be a "lower-profile" impact that will thus occur over a longer
space of time.  This could minimize impact, though make measuring footprint
more difficult.  

It would be nice to think that this perspective would invigorate a new direction
of systems reserach and make us more conscious of the way things work.  The
unfortunate alternative is that we arrive at another critical limit as we are
now with coal pollution - with people outraged at the energetic vampirism that
we would then be wreaking upon the planet.  


other perspectives?

Zak



Quoting hohlrauml6d netscape.net:

> http://www.automotive.com/features/90/auto-news/17333/index.html
> 
> "MagCap Engineering, LLC Announces 'Free' Unlimited Energy Source 
> Developed That Draws Power from the Environment
> CANTON, Mass., Dec. 20 /PRNewswire/ -- An alternative electric power 
> generating system that draws energy from a seemingly unlikely yet 
> abundant, eminently renewable and virtually free power source has been 
> submitted for patenting by MagCap Engineering, LLC, Canton, Mass., in 
> collaboration with Gordon W. Wadle, an inventor from Thomson, Ill.
> 
> Wadle has invented a way to capture the energy generated by a living 
> non- animal organism -- such as a tree."
> 
> <more>
> ___________________________________________________
> Try the New Netscape Mail Today!
> Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List
> http://mail.netscape.com
> 
> 
> 




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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 21 12:35:12 2005
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Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 15:32:59 -0500
From: Harry Veeder <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: GENERAL REQUEST
In-reply-to: <000001c6066c$32ac8700$5c5e10ac eDentsply.com>
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Let's say 'demonstrate' instead of 'prove'.

Harry



John Steck wrote:

> I really don't care what anyone 'believes'.  This discussion group is about
> what anyone can 'prove'.  At least it used to be...  Keep going down this
> path and you might as well invite Newman back, or that idiot shill of his,
> or the Whirlpower knuckleheads, etc.
> 
> Discussions regarding scientific theory are valid if it is the premise for
> an experiment or the basis for research.  There are creative writing classes
> at the local community college that would be a better venue for that other
> tripe.
> 
> Just cut it out already.
> 
> -j
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Edmund Storms [mailto:storms2 ix.netcom.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 1:30 PM
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: Re: GENERAL REQUEST
> 
> 
> Well John, I agree with you that discussions of theology can be a waste
> of time because no amount of discussion will change a viewpoint.
> Actually, such discussions are similar to those involving theory in
> science.  Nevertheless, such opinions are important to understand
> because theological beliefs are having increasing influence on science
> and on the way society is developing.  People contributing their beliefs
> on this forum are a typical cross-section of the population, hence give
> an understanding of the beliefs that are influencing policy.  Granted,
> none of these beliefs can be changed by discussion, but understanding
> them can help a person plan for and/or predict the future we all will
> experience whether we like it or not.  Self fulfilling prophecies do
> actually exist and we are seeing one develop now independent of any
> religious requirement.  As has happened repeatedly in the past, beliefs,
> religious and otherwise, guide history even though these beliefs are
> later shown to be entirely wrong.  Nevertheless, the harm has been done.
> The challenge is to personally avoid the harm these false beliefs produce.
> 
> Regards,
> Ed
> 
> John Steck wrote:
> 
>> Can we please have an immediate moratorium on all further discussions
>> related to theology here?
>> 
>> This is a SCIENCE list... You know, stuff that can be
>> proven/disproved; physics, math, research, technology, experiments, etc.
>> 
>> Respectfully.  -john
>> 
>> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 21 12:50:19 2005
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Amen to that!


At 09:37 AM 12/21/2005, you wrote:
>Can we please have an immediate moratorium on all further discussions
>related to theology here?
>
>This is a SCIENCE list... You know, stuff that can be proven/disproved;
>physics, math, research, technology, experiments, etc.
>
>Respectfully.  -john

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Subject: Re: New: large, old paper by Iyengar et al.
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Jed Rothwell wrote:
> See:
> 
> Iyengar, P.K. and M. Srinivasan. /Overview of BARC Studies in Cold 
> Fusion/. in /The First Annual Conference on Cold Fusion/. 1990. 
> University of Utah Research Park, Salt Lake City, Utah: National Cold 
> Fusion Institute.
> 
> http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/IyengarPKoverviewof.pdf
> 
> This is important because it shows how much dynamic, promising research 
> was going on in India from 1989 to the mid-90s. Unfortunately, nothing 
> is happening there now, as far as I know. I have heard that after 
> Iyengar and the others retired, the enemies of cold fusion moved in and 
> took steps to prevent any more research.
> 
> I did a lot of work to prepare this paper, so you folks better read it!

OK, OK! I'm reading it!  :-)

I just started looking at it -- got through the first few pages -- and a 
couple of things stood out that I don't understand.  It's going to take 
a while before I get through the rest of it so I thought I'd ask about 
this now rather than digging through the theory section first.

First, they apparently were seeing neutrons and tritium _right_ _away_ 
in active cells, as the Pd was being loaded.  This is in stark contrast 
to excess heat, which only appears after the Pd is fully loaded.  Did I 
misunderstand this?  It seems weird.  Does anyone have a theory that 
explains why the tritium and neutrons might be produced sooner than the 
first excess heat bursts?

Second, it took a while for it to sink in, but they kept talking about 
"anomalously low neutron counts" -- tritium was found, with just one 
neutron being emitted per ~ 10^7 tritium atoms produced.  I don't 
understand this.  They were using pure D20, so H+D->T is not a candidate 
reaction; in fact, it would appear that D+D->T+n is the only path that 
seems likely to produce tritium.  But then, where did the neutrons go?

Is it possible that something was fusing with the Pd itself?

I am depressingly ignorant of the theories that have been put forth to 
explain CF (aside from a general impression that there are an awful lot 
of them), but none the less this seems puzzling.  Is there any generally 
accepted ;-) "speculation", at least, that anyone on the list is aware 
of, for how this could happen?

> 
> - Jed

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From: hohlrauml6d netscape.net
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David Dennard won't return.  He died some time ago:

http://www.whirlpower.cc/

But you shouldn't be too rough on him, Schauberger thought similarly.

For a walk down memory lane you can look at some of the really old 
stuff:

http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/weird/wvort.html

-----Original Message-----
From: John Steck

Keep going down this
path and you might as well invite Newman back, or that idiot shill of 
his,
or the Whirlpower knuckleheads, etc.
___________________________________________________
Try the New Netscape Mail Today!
Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 21 13:23:20 2005
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On Dec 21, 2005, at 9:30 AM, hohlrauml6d netscape.net wrote:

> http://www.automotive.com/features/90/auto-news/17333/index.html
>
> "MagCap Engineering, LLC Announces 'Free' Unlimited Energy Source  
> Developed That Draws Power from the Environment
> CANTON, Mass., Dec. 20 /PRNewswire/ -- An alternative electric  
> power generating system that draws energy from a seemingly unlikely  
> yet abundant, eminently renewable and virtually free power source  
> has been submitted for patenting by MagCap Engineering, LLC,  
> Canton, Mass., in collaboration with Gordon W. Wadle, an inventor  
> from Thomson, Ill.
>
> Wadle has invented a way to capture the energy generated by a  
> living non- animal organism -- such as a tree."


These people never heard of cathodic protection systems?  You can  
just bet the ground interface is not aluminum.  The energy providing  
consumable here is probably aluminum.  Aluminum is a non-organic BTW.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 21 13:37:00 2005
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Dear Stephen,

It is my belief, based on an extensive examination of the literature, 
that the few neutrons emitted from cold fusion experiments are not the 
result of a "cold fusion" process, but result from a process stimulated 
by relatively high energy.  People have suggested that such high energy 
can result from crack formation. On the other hand, most of the tritium 
results from processes that are initiated on dendrites located on the 
surface of cathodes. Another similar environment might operate when gas 
is passed through solid Pd.  When the deuterium concentration gets 
sufficiently high within the cathode or within particles of Pd alloy, 
special locations initiate the He4 formation reaction.  As a result, 
each of these nuclear products result from a different process operating 
at a different site.  Confusion only occurs if all of the processes are 
thought to happen at the same time.

Regards,
Ed

Stephen A. Lawrence wrote:

> 
> 
> Jed Rothwell wrote:
> 
>> See:
>>
>> Iyengar, P.K. and M. Srinivasan. /Overview of BARC Studies in Cold 
>> Fusion/. in /The First Annual Conference on Cold Fusion/. 1990. 
>> University of Utah Research Park, Salt Lake City, Utah: National Cold 
>> Fusion Institute.
>>
>> http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/IyengarPKoverviewof.pdf
>>
>> This is important because it shows how much dynamic, promising 
>> research was going on in India from 1989 to the mid-90s. 
>> Unfortunately, nothing is happening there now, as far as I know. I 
>> have heard that after Iyengar and the others retired, the enemies of 
>> cold fusion moved in and took steps to prevent any more research.
>>
>> I did a lot of work to prepare this paper, so you folks better read it!
> 
> 
> OK, OK! I'm reading it!  :-)
> 
> I just started looking at it -- got through the first few pages -- and a 
> couple of things stood out that I don't understand.  It's going to take 
> a while before I get through the rest of it so I thought I'd ask about 
> this now rather than digging through the theory section first.
> 
> First, they apparently were seeing neutrons and tritium _right_ _away_ 
> in active cells, as the Pd was being loaded.  This is in stark contrast 
> to excess heat, which only appears after the Pd is fully loaded.  Did I 
> misunderstand this?  It seems weird.  Does anyone have a theory that 
> explains why the tritium and neutrons might be produced sooner than the 
> first excess heat bursts?
> 
> Second, it took a while for it to sink in, but they kept talking about 
> "anomalously low neutron counts" -- tritium was found, with just one 
> neutron being emitted per ~ 10^7 tritium atoms produced.  I don't 
> understand this.  They were using pure D20, so H+D->T is not a candidate 
> reaction; in fact, it would appear that D+D->T+n is the only path that 
> seems likely to produce tritium.  But then, where did the neutrons go?
> 
> Is it possible that something was fusing with the Pd itself?
> 
> I am depressingly ignorant of the theories that have been put forth to 
> explain CF (aside from a general impression that there are an awful lot 
> of them), but none the less this seems puzzling.  Is there any generally 
> accepted ;-) "speculation", at least, that anyone on the list is aware 
> of, for how this could happen?
> 
>>
>> - Jed
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 21 13:38:30 2005
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From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec medleas.com>
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References: <2.2.32.20051221165908.009f961c pop.freeserve.net> <7.0.0.16.2.20051221130229.03b71fd8@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: NKS 2006 Wolfram Science Conference
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 16:14:57 -0500
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My point about NKS is that if you start with Wolfram's thesis, look at the 
structures generated by the cellular automata, and let all that soak in a 
bit, you can get a feeling of a middle way between "science" and "religion".

If you look at the properties of the Wolfram's manifested complexity as a 
result of the operation of a simple process, you can see many of the 
features attributed to God by various cultures. You also can see the basic 
postulate of physics, that underlying the manifest complexity there are a 
set of rules or laws that 'explain' everything.

As far as the atheist position, I would ask about the 'image of God' that 
you don't believe in? At the core of mysticism of every culture is the 
intuition that essestial truth exceeds all categories; therefore what you 
can name is not "it". Thus in Judasim the name of 'God' is four 
unpronouceable consonants.

Ciphers must contain a concealed internal order, else they cannot be 
decrypted. The NKS "algorithm" needs no decryption, and so may defy all 
efforts to discover it.

Wolfram asserts no ultimate truth. However, he has posed a new set of 
questions whose pursuit may be very useful.

Mike Carrell 


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Edmund Storms wrote:

>It is my belief, based on an extensive examination of the 
>literature, that the few neutrons emitted from cold fusion 
>experiments are not the result of a "cold fusion" process, but 
>result from a process stimulated by relatively high energy.  People 
>have suggested that such high energy can result from crack formation.

I do not think people have found enough cracks to explain the 
neutrons generated in some experiments. My guess is that the neutrons 
come from secondary reactions. In other words, the deuterons fuse to 
form helium-4 (for reasons I cannot begin to imagine), and in a few 
cases, in rare circumstances, that reaction triggers a hot fusion 
event that results in a neutron.

The tritium also seems to be a secondary byproduct. Takahashi and 
others feel that it is inversely proportional to the heat, the way 
smoke is inversely proportional to fire. You might call it the 
product of "incomplete fusion," (like incomplete combustion), or a 
precursor reaction.


I hope to have another, later review paper by Iyengar et al. soon, 
that was published in Fusion Technology.

- Jed


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Stephen A. Lawrence writes,

> Second, it took a while for it to sink in, but they kept talking 
> about "anomalously low neutron counts" -- tritium was found, 
> with just one neutron being emitted per ~ 10^7 tritium atoms 
> produced.  I don't understand this.  They were using pure D20, 
> so H+D->T is not a candidate reaction; in fact, it would appear 
> that D+D->T+n is the only path that seems likely to produce 
> tritium.  But then, where did the neutrons go?


Back in 1990 when Bockris first found tritium in LENR - he 
believed that it was technically NOT a fusion product at all, but 
instead was a fission product (from the lithium electrolyte).

Beyond that, the specific details and rationale for this reaction 
may have changed over the years -

...but recently a most unusual proposition is being floated 
around -a 'quasi-spontaneous' photofission of 7Li --> 4He +3H in 
which the 7Li could be either natural, or a previously undescribed 
nuclear isomer (deformed nucleus) of lithium.

Like most putative LENR reactions - this is largely unknown to the 
mainstream. There is some basis for believing that at least some 
LENR tritium reactions (with a lithium electrolyte) could be 
described as "photofission."  The closest thing for comparison in 
hot fusion is the spallation reaction, in which a neutron is 
"boiled off" of a high Z nucleus by the close approach (NOT 
Impact) of an approaching light nucleus. The "photo" part comes 
from a photon-exchange.

The reason that a deuteron could conceivably do this - and not a 
proton - is the partial electrostatic "shielding effect" of the 
neutron.

The assumption being that for a brief time, the 
approaching-deuteron's neutron could shield it from the nuclear 
positive charge of 7Li (which can be also partly shielded by its 4 
neutrons - a most unusual ratio for a light nucleus) allowing that 
deuteron to get close enough to where it will cause an electroweak 
disruption, and subsequent photofission.

IOW the 'occasional' deuteron (on Boltzman's tail of energy) will 
be accelerated to decent velocity - at the surface of Pd as it is 
first brought into the electron shell of the Pd but then 
expelled - so that it actually goes part of the way inside the 
electron shell of the Li, and it is able to get closer to this 
nucleus than would a proton of the same velocity, because of the 
partial shielding effect.

It would not surprise the more cynical observer to discover that 
this is already being done secretly by DoD.

Jones 

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Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Edmund Storms wrote:
> 
>> It is my belief, based on an extensive examination of the literature, 
>> that the few neutrons emitted from cold fusion experiments are not the 
>> result of a "cold fusion" process, but result from a process 
>> stimulated by relatively high energy.  People have suggested that such 
>> high energy can result from crack formation.
> 
> 
> I do not think people have found enough cracks to explain the neutrons 
> generated in some experiments. My guess is that the neutrons come from 
> secondary reactions. In other words, the deuterons fuse to form helium-4 
> (for reasons I cannot begin to imagine), and in a few cases, in rare 
> circumstances, that reaction triggers a hot fusion event that results in 
> a neutron.

The cracks are too small to see even with an optical microscope.  They 
are most easily seen as a line of bubbles that occur during deloading. 
  My measurement of excess volume indicate that a sample can have a 
large fraction of its volume involved in crack formation.  Most of the 
cracks do not reach the surface where they can be seen.  It does not 
take many cracks to produce the small number of reported neutrons.
> 
> The tritium also seems to be a secondary byproduct. Takahashi and others 
> feel that it is inversely proportional to the heat, the way smoke is 
> inversely proportional to fire. You might call it the product of 
> "incomplete fusion," (like incomplete combustion), or a precursor reaction.

This conclusion is based on theory, not on observation.  Tritium is 
seldom measured by people making heat measurements. Only Bockris found 
significant tritium along with heat production.

Ed
> 
> 
> I hope to have another, later review paper by Iyengar et al. soon, that 
> was published in Fusion Technology.
> 
> - Jed
> 
> 
> 

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Edmund Storms wrote:

>>The tritium also seems to be a secondary byproduct. Takahashi and 
>>others feel that it is inversely proportional to the heat . . .
>
>This conclusion is based on theory, not on observation.

Sorry, I meant neutrons. Takahashi measured neutrons during an 
experiment that produced heat and they appeared to be inversely 
proportional. I believe that is what inspired his theory.

Fritz Will and others commented that cells which produce a lot of 
tritium do not seem to produce heat. This is probably true only for 
bulk palladium. Arata's cells have produced lots of tritium in a few cases.

- Jed


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Subject: Books available for science VIPs
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During ICCF-12 I gave away 30 paperback copies of "Cold Fusion in the 
Future." I consider them misprints because the back cover is messed 
up and the title was not printed on the spine. I do not want to sell 
them, and no one is buying in any case. I still have ~40 left, but 
Dave Nagel may want 20.

Anyway, at ICCF-12 I was a little surprised to find that some people 
read the book enthusiastically, but it had never occurred to them to 
download it. Apparently, some people are more inclined to read paper 
books than electronic ones. That being the case, I wonder if anyone 
in this forum knows some open-minded scientific VIP who might benefit 
from reading the book. If you know someone like that, you might 
contact him and ask if he wants a copy and I will mail it to him if he does.

- Jed


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Yes, when I read the story I thought of the "earth battery":

http://www.lifeisannoying.com/forum/index.php?board=3;action=display;thre
adid=2874

or

http://tinyurl.com/b9sdw

How's the permafrost holding up?  I have seen stories of foundation 
damage in Siberia due to melting permafrost.


-----Original Message-----
From: Horace Heffner
 
These people never heard of cathodic protection systems? You can just 
bet the ground interface is not aluminum. The energy providing 
consumable here is probably aluminum. Aluminum is a non-organic BTW. 
 


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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 21 14:34:18 2005
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Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 16:32:25 -0500
From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" <salaw pobox.com>
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Stephen A. Lawrence wrote:
> [ ... ]
> Second, it took a while for it to sink in, but they kept talking about 
> "anomalously low neutron counts" -- tritium was found, with just one 
> neutron being emitted per ~ 10^7 tritium atoms produced.  I don't 
> understand this.  They were using pure D20, so H+D->T is not a candidate 
> reaction; in fact, it would appear that D+D->T+n is the only path that 
> seems likely to produce tritium.  But then, where did the neutrons go?
> 
> Is it possible that something was fusing with the Pd itself?

Overlooked something.

They saw total counts of about 10^7 tritium atoms produced per neutron 
produced for an experiment with a _titanium_ electrode, as well as the 
experiments with Pd or Pd/Ag electrodes.

Since the ratio of tritium produced to neutrons produced is about the 
same for the two electrode types, one would tend to conclude the cause 
of the effect can't very well be a reaction in which the Pd is an active 
participant.  At any rate, if that were the case, I'd expect the results 
to look totally different when titanium is substituted for palladium, 
and they don't.

NB -- Unless I misunderstood something, the "total counts" were just 
that:  as I understand it, they calibrated the neutron detectors before 
the runs, and then they extrapolated from the neutron detector area and 
sensitivity to estimate the total number of neutrons produced by the 
cell during the run.  Obviously that's an error-prone process but one 
would not expect the result to be off by a factor of 10^7.  Tritium 
counts were apparently done by sampling the electrolyte, which should be 
pretty accurate, or should err on the low side if some tritium ended up 
stuck in the electrodes or got out the top of the cell -- and that would 
just make the actual T/n ratio worse.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 21 14:38:01 2005
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Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 17:35:19 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: I revised the Wikipedia article
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I spent considerable time today -- too much time -- revising the 
Wikipedia article on cold fusion, and adding sarcastic notes to the 
talk section:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_fusion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Cold_fusion

This is a labor of Sisyphus that will probably be reverted and 
subverted by the skeptics.

The article is still chaotic and repetitive, and there is still quite 
a bit of nonsense inserted by skeptics. But as I remarked in the talk 
section, this is actually kind of a plus because it demonstrates how 
deeply divisive the subject is, and also because the skeptics' 
comments are so lame-brained they make us look good.

- Jed


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From: Horace Heffner <hheffner mtaonline.net>
Subject: Re: Organic Electricity
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 13:57:12 -0900
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On Dec 21, 2005, at 1:02 PM, hohlrauml6d netscape.net wrote:
>
> How's the permafrost holding up?  I have seen stories of foundation  
> damage in Siberia due to melting permafrost.


No problem at my present house.  I had serious problems with melting  
subsoil ice at my previous house.  The real problem is further north,  
where the permafrost has less than a 100 years left.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 21 15:08:40 2005
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Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 00:01:23 +0100
From: David Jonsson <davidjonssonsweden gmail.com>
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Subject: Atmospheric electric polarization
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I read in vortex-l many years ago about the atmosphere on Jupiter or
Saturn being electrically polarized. The author said that ions were
more attracted by gravity than electrons.

It is also known on earth that there is an electric field of 90-150
V/m. Is it caused by the same effect?

I am basically interested in electric polarization in pressure gradients.

David

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From: "John Steck" <johnsteck tetrahelix.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Organic Electricity
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 17:09:44 -0600
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"Interestingly, while conventional wisdom would seem to indicate that the
tree draws much of its energy from photosynthesis via its leaves, the
voltage output actually increases to 1.2-1.3 volts in the winter after the
leaves have fallen."

Static charge accumulator?  Cold dry air across a water filled fractal
branch array... Could be a nice explanation why trees grow upwards like
crystal formations and are typically the worst thing to stand by in a
lightning storm.

-john


-----Original Message-----
From: Horace Heffner [mailto:hheffner mtaonline.net] 
Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 3:21 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Organic Electricity



On Dec 21, 2005, at 9:30 AM, hohlrauml6d netscape.net wrote:

> http://www.automotive.com/features/90/auto-news/17333/index.html
>
> "MagCap Engineering, LLC Announces 'Free' Unlimited Energy Source
> Developed That Draws Power from the Environment
> CANTON, Mass., Dec. 20 /PRNewswire/ -- An alternative electric  
> power generating system that draws energy from a seemingly unlikely  
> yet abundant, eminently renewable and virtually free power source  
> has been submitted for patenting by MagCap Engineering, LLC,  
> Canton, Mass., in collaboration with Gordon W. Wadle, an inventor  
> from Thomson, Ill.
>
> Wadle has invented a way to capture the energy generated by a
> living non- animal organism -- such as a tree."


These people never heard of cathodic protection systems?  You can  
just bet the ground interface is not aluminum.  The energy providing  
consumable here is probably aluminum.  Aluminum is a non-organic BTW.

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Saw something about the Alaska pipeline footings heaving from the melt and a
prediction of a large oil spill soon as a result (since is so much easier
and cheaper to fix things after they break).

-john

-----Original Message-----
From: Horace Heffner [mailto:hheffner mtaonline.net] 
Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 4:57 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Organic Electricity



On Dec 21, 2005, at 1:02 PM, hohlrauml6d netscape.net wrote:
>
> How's the permafrost holding up?  I have seen stories of foundation
> damage in Siberia due to melting permafrost.


No problem at my present house.  I had serious problems with melting  
subsoil ice at my previous house.  The real problem is further north,  
where the permafrost has less than a 100 years left.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 21 15:40:29 2005
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Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 22:30:24 +0000
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From: Grimer <f.grimer grimer2.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: NKS 2006 Wolfram Science Conference
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At 01:19 pm 21/12/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>Grimer wrote:
>
>>At 10:42 am 21/12/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>> >Mike Carrell wrote:
>>
>> >>The Lord works in mysterious ways.
>> >
>> >Jed: He would if he existed, but he doesn't so he doesn't.
>>
>>Frank; Yes he does.
>>
>>Jed: No he doesn't . . .
>
>It was not a loop! You are missing my point. 


With the greatest respect, I think you are missing my point, Jed.

I was replying to your claim that God did not exist. The repetition
was just a bit of infantile tomfoolery of the kind kids use
in the playground - to emphasise that we would just have to agree
to disagree as to the existence of God.

I was not denying, and indeed do not deny that: 

> Each and every mechanism in nature appears to be 
> comprehensible to man. So far we have not 
> discovered any mysteries that appear to be unsolvable.

And I take it from that, you don't believe in indeterminacy 
either.

I should perhaps point out to avoid any confusion, that 
God is not natural - He is supernatural.   8-)

To quote the Bard. "There are more things in........"

I trust that has cleared up any possible misunderstanding.

Happy Christmas, 

And I hope Santa leaves something nice in your 
stocking even if you don't believe in him.  <g>

Frank

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Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 22:39:50 +0000
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From: Grimer <f.grimer grimer2.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: NKS 2006 Wolfram Science Conference
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At 12:30 pm 21/12/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>
>
>Grimer wrote:
>> At 10:42 am 21/12/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>> 
>>>Mike Carrell wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>>>The Lord works in mysterious ways.
>>>
>>>Jed: He would if he existed, but he doesn't so he doesn't.
>> 
>> 
>> Frank; Yes he does.
>> 
>> Jed: No he doesn't 
>> 
>> F: Yes he does.
>> 
>> J: No he doesn't. 
>> 
>> F: Yes he does.
>> 
>> J: No he doesn't.
>> 
>> F: Yes he does a thousand times and no returns.
>> 
>> Ah! that takes me right back to my 
>> school playground when we were 5.   8-)
>
>There are valid methods for determining the likely provenance of sacred 
>texts.  There are valid methods for determining certain details of how 
>ancient manuscripts were constructed.  There are, in fact, valid 
>arguments that may eventually lead to an almost certainly correct 
>solution to the synoptic problem.  (Actually I think the solution to 
>that one's already clear, but like cold fusion, the academic 
>establishment has largely rejected it FWTW.)  Hence, arguments over such 
>things could plausibly be considered appropriate for a science-oriented 
>discussion group.
>
>But the statement that "God exists" is too vague to be testable (i.e, no 
>matter what facts were discovered, for any imagined experiment no matter 
>how impractical, it could never be proved false) and hence there are no 
>valid arguments on either side of that particular issue, which puts it 
>clearly off-topic.



Agreed. And if Jed will abstain from saying He don't exist - 
I wont feel conscience bound to insist that He does exist.   

As Basil Fawlty said to his German diners, 
                            "...you invaded Poland." 8-)

Frank

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The bottom line is that the overwhelming complexity of the manifest universe

is arguably the result of the operation of something as simple as cellular 
automata, and that we have no hope of discovering the nature of that seed.

Mike Carrell

How's that? Prove it. Do we all give up and go home? Sounds like post-modern
science.

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At 10:42 am 21/12/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>Mike Carrell wrote:

>>The Lord works in mysterious ways.
>
>Jed: He would if he existed, but he doesn't so he doesn't.

Frank; Yes he does.

Jed: No he doesn't 

F: Yes he does.

J: No he doesn't. 

F: Yes he does.

J: No he doesn't.

F: Yes he does a thousand times and no returns.

Ah! that takes me right back to my 
school playground when we were 5.   8-)



 



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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: NKS 2006 Wolfram Science Conference
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Mike Carrell wrote:

>The bottom line is that the overwhelming complexity of the manifest 
>universe is arguably the result of the operation of something as 
>simple as cellular automata . . .

That is plausible.


>. . . and that we have no hope of discovering the nature of that seed.

That does not follow at all! On the contrary, if the complexity is 
the result of something simple, it is far more likely that we *will* 
discover it. Life is the most complex phenomenon in the known 
universe, yet it was caused by Darwinian evolution. This is the most 
wonderfully simple "seed" imaginable: it can be summed up with just a 
few postulates, although the details fill libraries.

I know nothing about string theory, but Peter Hagelstein tells me it 
has made remarkable progress in recent years. The range of possible 
hypotheses which have to be tested used to number something like 
10^10 (I think he said) have now been reduced to a few thousand.


>The Lord works in mysterious ways.

He would if he existed, but he doesn't so he doesn't. Nature works in 
non-mysterious ways, and each individual process in nature can be 
discovered and understood by man. There does not seem to be any 
single mystery beyond our grasp. However, neither our our species nor 
the sun (and similar stars) will last long enough for us to discover 
all physical laws, or analyze the DNA of all species on all planets.

- Jed -- a born again atheist who supports Judge John Jones III for President!


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No, the spaceport control center will be below grade as is indicated in 
this cross section view.  The plan view looks like a human iris and 
pupil:

http://tinyurl.com/cjsjf

The location is not far from the alleged crash site of 1947 fame.

-----Original Message-----
From: thomas malloy

One of the interviewees on C to C AM said that Sir Richard's proposed 
design for the New Mexico space port involves several hundred of 
millions of dollars worth of excavation. Part of this investment is Sir 
Richard's, but the state of New Mexico is putting up a significant sum 
too. This begs the question of which way Sir Richard wants to go, 
alternatively, perhaps some of the customers will come from the 
underground. 
___________________________________________________
Try the New Netscape Mail Today!
Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List
http://mail.netscape.com

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----- Original Message ----- 
From: <R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk>
Subject: RE: NKS 2006 Wolfram Science Conference


> The bottom line is that the overwhelming complexity of the manifest 
> universe
>
> is arguably the result of the operation of something as simple as cellular
> automata, and that we have no hope of discovering the nature of that seed.
>
> Mike Carrell
>
> How's that? Prove it. Do we all give up and go home? Sounds like 
> post-modern
> science.
------------------
As I said, there is no substitiute for tackling Wolfram's book. There just 
isn't. The argument is advanced by the hundreds of illustarions of the 
operation of the cellular automata. This does not fit into any existing tidy 
boxes except deterministic chaos theory, which is not tidy.

As for not being able to discover the seed, consider the Mandelbrot Set. The 
operation of the generating equation produces a mathematical "object" of 
extreme complexity. However, examining the object will not disclose the 
equation which generated it. The Mandelbrot Set and Wolfram's cellular 
automata have the common feature that the generating operations are 
non-linear and recursive. A seminal book on the consequences of this is 
"Godel Escher Bach".

A remarkable feature of Wolfram's thesis is that the product of the the 
cellular automata can be some order as found in our scientific exploration 
of natural phenomena.

I'm not sure what the term "post modern" means, especially when applied to 
science. Certainly Wolfram's work is a new bemchmark among many other 
current studies of deterministic chaos and cellular automata.

Mike Carrell 


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> From: Mike Carrell
>> From: "thomas malloy" <temalloy usfamily.net>
> 
> >>>- What does computational irreducibility mean for supercomputing?
> >>>
> >>>- Is there an algorithm for telling if an object was designed?
> >
> >> Would such an algorithm prove the existence of a designer of life?

...

> Unfortunately, no simple statement can substitute for a perusal of Wolfram's 
> "A New Kind of Science" and confronting the printouts of hundreds of runs of 
> the cellular automata whose properties are displayed. Wolfram says he wrote 
> Mathematica in part to be able to do this work.
> 
> It is altogether astonishing that some seeds for cellular automata lead 
> quickly to sterile order and stasis and others, seemingly similar, generate 
> progressive unlimited randomity. It is further astonishing that Wolfram 
> demonstrates that these 'random' manifestations can do Boolean logic and 
> arithmetic operations, leading to 'intelligence'.
> 
> The bottom line is that the overwhelming complexity of the manifest universe 
> is arguably the result of the operation of something as simple as cellular 
> automata, and that we have no hope of discovering the nature of that seed.
> 
> The Lord works in mysterious ways.
> 
> Mike Carrell


Mike's interesting perception on this matter reminds me of what often appears to me to be a never-ending battle between those who seem to need to keep the carvings of God firmly banished to the realm of the transcendent, and the other side who seem to need to find a carving attributed to the finger of God (any carving, and any finger will do) chiseled somewhere in our universe, no matter how subtle or fleeting that chiseling might turn out to be.

If I was god, I think I'd keep both sides guessing, and perhaps for an eternity as well. It's more interesting that way. ;-)

I thought Carl Sagan's novel, "Contact", did a marvelous job of, conceptually speaking, capturing one of those illusive carvings attributed to the finger of God, and from a mathematical point of view . Reading's Carl's novel one can clearly see that for much of his life span he had pondered the conundrum of whether it might be possible to detect an echo of God's presence embedded somewhere within our ever expanding universe.

Perhaps Carl has his answer now.

As for me, I'm still guessing. ;-)

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "thomas malloy" <temalloy usfamily.net>
Subject: Re: Fw: NKS 2006 Wolfram Science Conference


>>>- What does computational irreducibility mean for supercomputing?
>>>
>>>- Is there an algorithm for telling if an object was designed?
>
> Would such an algorithm prove the existence of a designer of life?
>
>>>
>>>- Will the most important nanomaterials be intrinsically random?
>
> I fail to understand how a random material could be anything other than a 
> mishmash of atoms.
---------------------------------
Unfortunately, no simple statement can substitute for a perusal of Wolfram's 
"A New Kind of Science" and confronting the printouts of hundreds of runs of 
the cellular automata whose properties are displayed. Wolfram says he wrote 
Mathematica in part to be able to do this work.

It is altogether astonishing that some seeds for cellular automata lead 
quickly to sterile order and stasis and others, seemingly similar, generate 
progressive unlimited randomity. It is further astonishing that Wolfram 
demonstrates that these 'random' manifestations can do Boolean logic and 
arithmetic operations, leading to 'intelligence'.

The bottom line is that the overwhelming complexity of the manifest universe 
is arguably the result of the operation of something as simple as cellular 
automata, and that we have no hope of discovering the nature of that seed.

The Lord works in mysterious ways.

Mike Carrell
















>
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I wrote:
> 
> Stephen.
> 
> The pee exit height (PEH) of a kid aiming the stream upward to achieve
> contact with an electric fence allows for a solid stream as opposed to a falling
> gravity-accelerated stream that puts  the stream in tensile stress, causing
> break-up into droplets.
> 
With thanks to Doc Edgerton's Strobe.

http://homepage.usask.ca/~dln136/projectile/pages/module4.html

"In this activity you will look at how different factors influence the motion of a projectile when it is launched at an angle.   You will be looking at the effect that mass, initial velocity, and launch angle has on the projectile's maximum height, range and final velocity.   As well, you will investigate which factors are influenced by the presence of air resistance."

The outdoor privy of the one-room (eight grades}school where I  kicked off
my academic career in 1938 had a pee trough that was a bit high for the first graders.
It taught the basics of projectile motion at a early age.
I also learned while simultaneously using the trough that a heated argument with a classmate over who the
pretty girl in the eigth grade liked the most resulted in the spraying of each other's knees 
and a tearful report to the teacher in front of the other 19 students.

Despite all of the trials and tribulations having the distinction
of being in the top 1/3 of the class for three years in a row....there were three of us.  

Fred
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<HTML><HEAD>
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<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>I wrote:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>&gt; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>&gt; Stephen.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; The pee exit height (PEH) of a kid aiming the stream upward to achieve<BR>&gt; contact with an electric fence allows for a solid stream as opposed to a falling<BR>&gt; gravity-accelerated stream that puts&nbsp; the stream in tensile stress, causing<BR>&gt; break-up into droplets.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>&gt; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV>With thanks to Doc Edgerton's Strobe.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2><A href="http://homepage.usask.ca/~dln136/projectile/pages/module4.html">http://homepage.usask.ca/~dln136/projectile/pages/module4.html</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>"In this activity you will look at how different factors influence the motion of a projectile when it is launched at an angle. &nbsp; You will be looking at the effect that mass, initial velocity, and launch angle has on the projectile's maximum height, range and final velocity. &nbsp; As well, you will investigate which factors are influenced by the presence of air resistance."</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The outdoor privy of the one-room (eight grades}school where I&nbsp; kicked off</DIV>
<DIV>my academic career in 1938 had a pee trough that was a bit high for the first graders.</DIV>
<DIV>It taught the basics of projectile motion at a early age.</DIV>
<DIV>I also learned while simultaneously using the trough that a heated argument with a classmate over who the</DIV>
<DIV>pretty girl in the eigth grade liked the most resulted in the spraying of each other's knees </DIV>
<DIV>and a tearful report to the teacher in front of the other 19 students.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Despite all of the trials and tribulations having the distinction</DIV>
<DIV>of being in the top 1/3 of the class for three years in a row....there were three of us.&nbsp; </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Fred</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 21 15:45:54 2005
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: "vortex-l" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Electrolysis of Ionic Hydrides-Deuterides?
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At 500 deg C,  a D2  molecule with a D-D bond strength of 444 KJ/mole  (4.6 eV/bond) reacts with liquid Lithium 
which has a Li-Li bond strength of  107 KJ/mole (1.11 eV/bond) to form the two Li-D bonds
each with a bond strength of 240 KJ/mole.(2.5 eV/bond) 
About even up when the energy of getting the Li & D2 up to temperature is considered.

OTOH, if electrolysis of molten LiD yields Deuterium at the anode with a cell
potential a fraction of that required for electrolysis of D2O with a current many
times that of the D2O ....but how much energy was invested to get the
Lithium Metal and D2 gas in the first place?

IOW, a 15 times input "OU" multiplier might achieve energy breakeven.

Fred
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<HTML><HEAD>
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2802" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>At 500&nbsp;deg C,&nbsp; a D2&nbsp; molecule with a&nbsp;D-D bond strength of 444 KJ/mole&nbsp; (4.6 eV/bond) reacts with liquid Lithium </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>w</FONT>hich has a Li-Li bond strength of&nbsp; 107 KJ/mole (1.11 eV/bond) to form the two Li-D bonds</DIV>
<DIV>each&nbsp;with a bond strength of 240 KJ/mole.(2.5 eV/bond)&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>About even up when the energy of getting the Li &amp; D2 up to temperature is considered.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>OTOH, if&nbsp;electrolysis of molten LiD yields Deuterium at the anode&nbsp;with a cell</DIV>
<DIV>potential a fraction of that required for electrolysis of D2O with a current many</DIV>
<DIV>times that of the D2O&nbsp;....but how much energy was invested to get the</DIV>
<DIV>Lithium Metal and D2 gas in the first place?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>IOW, a 15 times input "OU"&nbsp;multiplier might achieve energy breakeven.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Fred</DIV></BODY></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 21 15:46:00 2005
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Stephen A. Lawrence wrote:

>
>
> Steven Krivit wrote:
>
>> Does anyone know of any other publicly-traded company or subsidiary 
>> besides D2Fusion that exists which is exclusively geared toward R&D 
>> or commercialization of cold fusion?
>
>
> No, but I have another question for anyone who can answer it.
>
> On the front page to D2Fusion,
>
> http://www.d2fusion.com/
>
> I noticed that they say of cold fusion that it was:
>
>> First discovered in the 1930s then re-discovered and announced in
>> 1989,
>
>
> Furthermore, in a paper Jed posted a few days back,
>
> http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/ArataYdevelopmenb.pdf
>
> there was a reference to a "thermonuclear fusion experiment" in Japan 
> in 1933 which apparently wasn't pursued because they couldn't buy 
> deuterium. Jed said he had no idea what this was in reference to; 
> could it have been connected in some way to whatever the D2Fusion page 
> is referring to?
>
> What, exactly, happened with fusion research, cold or hot, in the 
> 1930's?  As far as I knew, fusion research didn't start until much 
> later than that, but these two references seem to suggest that the 
> groundwork for cold fusion was laid at that time.  (Has this been 
> discussed on Vortex before?  I did a quick lookup on Google for fusion 
> and 1933 without turning up anything interesting, and scanned back 
> over the last couple years of Vortex looking for subjects containing 
> d2fusion and didn't find anything more.)
>
> Fission reactor work started in the 1930's, of course, and the Nazis 
> started working on a nuclear bomb some time in the late 1930's or 
> early 1940's, but aside from the references in that paper and website, 
> I've never heard anything about any kind of actual fusion experiments 
> in the 1930's.
>
>
> Jed posted an
>
>>
>> Thank you,
>>
>> Steve
>>
>>
>
OK there was a report in Fusion Facts some time back that the japs may 
have had a muon fusion program mid war. Muons occur naturally at high 
altitude and a magnet can be used to focus the muons on deuterium. But 
you have to do every thing in a high altitude air craft. At the end of 
the war every thing was ordered destroyed but some parts were buried.  
The result would be a sustained muon catalyses fusion but we don't know 
what they planned to do with it.
I'll look for the article. Any one want to go on an archaeological 
expedition looking for a fusion reactor? We live in strange times.

I have heard that there were fusion papers published during the second 
world war that were specifically written to throw the Germans off the 
track. At the end of the war the western allies were told it was phoney 
but no-one told the Spanish or the Argentineans. By the 1970's having 
spent millons on a dead end fusion program Peron found out. He was furious!



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Edmund Storms wrote:
> Dear Stephen,
> 
> It is my belief, based on an extensive examination of the literature, 
> that the few neutrons emitted from cold fusion experiments are not the 
> result of a "cold fusion" process, but result from a process stimulated 
> by relatively high energy.  People have suggested that such high energy 
> can result from crack formation. On the other hand, most of the tritium 
> results from processes that are initiated on dendrites located on the 
> surface of cathodes. Another similar environment might operate when gas 
> is passed through solid Pd.  When the deuterium concentration gets 
> sufficiently high within the cathode or within particles of Pd alloy, 
> special locations initiate the He4 formation reaction.  As a result, 
> each of these nuclear products result from a different process operating 
> at a different site.  Confusion only occurs if all of the processes are 
> thought to happen at the same time.

Indeed!  Thank you much.

I think I must have been crosseyed when I posted my earlier note.  Sad 
to say, I was thinking of:

    H2 + H2 -> H3 + n .... NOT QUITE!

duh! ..... How about this instead:

    H2 + H2 -> He3 + n

and then the tritium comes from someplace else entirely like maybe:

    H2 + H2 -> H3 + H1

and there isn't any neutron anomaly (that's presumably not the path 
followed, anyway, but at least it shows there's a possibility for the 
nucleon counts to add up...).

Hrrmph, gotta be more careful of my simple arithmetic here.

> 
> Regards,
> Ed
> 
> Stephen A. Lawrence wrote:
> 
>>
>>
>> Jed Rothwell wrote:
>>
>>> See:
>>>
>>> Iyengar, P.K. and M. Srinivasan. /Overview of BARC Studies in Cold 
>>> Fusion/. in /The First Annual Conference on Cold Fusion/. 1990. 
>>> University of Utah Research Park, Salt Lake City, Utah: National Cold 
>>> Fusion Institute.
>>>
>>> http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/IyengarPKoverviewof.pdf
>>>
>>> This is important because it shows how much dynamic, promising 
>>> research was going on in India from 1989 to the mid-90s. 
>>> Unfortunately, nothing is happening there now, as far as I know. I 
>>> have heard that after Iyengar and the others retired, the enemies of 
>>> cold fusion moved in and took steps to prevent any more research.
>>>
>>> I did a lot of work to prepare this paper, so you folks better read it!
>>
>>
>>
>> OK, OK! I'm reading it!  :-)
>>
>> I just started looking at it -- got through the first few pages -- and 
>> a couple of things stood out that I don't understand.  It's going to 
>> take a while before I get through the rest of it so I thought I'd ask 
>> about this now rather than digging through the theory section first.
>>
>> First, they apparently were seeing neutrons and tritium _right_ _away_ 
>> in active cells, as the Pd was being loaded.  This is in stark 
>> contrast to excess heat, which only appears after the Pd is fully 
>> loaded.  Did I misunderstand this?  It seems weird.  Does anyone have 
>> a theory that explains why the tritium and neutrons might be produced 
>> sooner than the first excess heat bursts?
>>
>> Second, it took a while for it to sink in, but they kept talking about 
>> "anomalously low neutron counts" -- tritium was found, with just one 
>> neutron being emitted per ~ 10^7 tritium atoms produced.  I don't 
>> understand this.  They were using pure D20, so H+D->T is not a 
>> candidate reaction; in fact, it would appear that D+D->T+n is the only 
>> path that seems likely to produce tritium.  But then, where did the 
>> neutrons go?
>>
>> Is it possible that something was fusing with the Pd itself?
>>
>> I am depressingly ignorant of the theories that have been put forth to 
>> explain CF (aside from a general impression that there are an awful 
>> lot of them), but none the less this seems puzzling.  Is there any 
>> generally accepted ;-) "speculation", at least, that anyone on the 
>> list is aware of, for how this could happen?
>>
>>>
>>> - Jed
>>
>>
>>
>>
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 21 16:01:26 2005
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Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 18:59:08 -0500
From: Harry Veeder <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: evolution, diversity vs complexity
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When you look at life what do you see?

'Complexity' or 'diversity'?

The science of complexity has a long history, but the science
of diversity is really just beginning. We can now define, construct and
measure complexity in great mathematical detail, but what of diversity?

While diversity can be simulated by complexity, I do not think
it is the same thing.

It seems to me the debate between the intelligent designers and the
Darwinians is a debate about the extent to which life is diverse or whether
life is complex. Unfortunately confusion, arrogance and fear dominates the
debate.

Harry 

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Vortexians,

I have no idea if this is feasible.  It strikes as one of those too good =
to be true kind of things.  So obvious that you have to wonder if it =
works why didn't someone think of it already?!?  But the company =
promoting this idea (http://www.magcap.com/about.php) has supposedly =
been around since 1969 and is a defense contractor, so they do not =
appear to be some fly-by-night outfit.  Is this just crackpot nonsense =
or has the answer to our energy problems been under our noses all =
along???

One thing is for sure, it is amazing just how important a role energy =
plays in our society.  Decades of social engineering have ensured that =
we are dependent on fossil fuels and now we even fight wars over energy =
resources.  A change to a far cheaper, more abundant and much less =
polluting energy source would dramatically improve our quality of life =
(and decrease the fossil fuel industry's profits dramatically, which is =
why they are not pursuing such an enlightened path).

John C

MagCap Engineering, LLC Announces 'Free' Unlimited Energy Source =
Developed That Draws Power from the Environment=20

MagCap Engineering, LLC Announces 'Free' Unlimited Energy Source =
Developed That Draws Power from the Environment=20

CANTON, Mass., Dec. 20 /PRNewswire/ -- An alternative electric power =
generating system that draws energy from a seemingly unlikely yet =
abundant, eminently renewable and virtually free power source has been =
submitted for patenting by MagCap Engineering, LLC, Canton, Mass., in =
collaboration with Gordon W. Wadle, an inventor from Thomson, Ill.

Wadle has invented a way to capture the energy generated by a living =
non- animal organism -- such as a tree. Chris Lagadinos, president of =
MagCap, developed circuitry that converts this natural energy source =
into useable DC power capable of sustaining a continuous current to =
charge and maintain a battery at full charge.

"As unbelievable as it sounds, we've been able to demonstrate the =
feasibility of generating electricity in this manner," said Wadle. =
"While the development is in its infancy, it has the potential to =
provide an unlimited supply of constant, clean energy without relying on =
fossil fuels, a power generating plant complex or an elaborate =
transmission network."

The developers now intend to establish a collaborative agreement with a =
company, academic institution or potential investors who can help =
finance the additional research and development necessary to take the =
invention to the next level -- a practical, commercially viable power =
generating system.

Wadle likened the invention to the Discovery of electricity over 200 =
years ago when charged particles were harnessed to create an electric =
current. "Now we've learned that there is an immense, inexhaustible =
source of energy literally all around us that can be harnessed and =
converted into usable electric power," he said.

Ultimately, it should prove to be more practical than solar energy or =
wind power, and certainly more affordable than fuel cells, he added.

Wadle said he got the original idea of harnessing a tree for electrical =
energy from studying lightening, more than 50 percent of which =
originates from the ground. This prompted him to develop the theories =
resulting in a method to access this power source. Lagadinos then =
designed circuitry that filtered and amplified these energy emanations, =
creating a useable power source.

Basically, the existing system includes a metal rod embedded in the =
tree, a grounding rod driven into the ground, and the connecting =
circuitry, which filters and boosts the power output sufficient to =
charge a battery. In its current experimental configuration, the =
demonstration system produces 2.1 volts, enough to continuously maintain =
a full charge in a nickel cadmium battery attached to an LED light.

"Think of the environment as a battery, in this case," said Lagadinos, =
"with the tree as the positive pole and the grounding rod as the =
negative."

Near term -- within the next six months or so -- and with additional =
research and development, Lagadinos said the system could be enhanced =
enough to generate 12 volts and one amp of power, "a desirable power =
level that could be used to power just about anything," he said.

http://www.automotive.com/features/90/auto-news/17333/index.html
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2802" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><SPAN class=3DspnMessageText id=3Dmsg>Vortexians,</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3DspnMessageText></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3DspnMessageText>I have no idea if this is =
feasible.&nbsp; It=20
strikes as one of those too good to be true kind&nbsp;of things.&nbsp; =
So=20
obvious that you have to wonder if it works why didn't someone think =
of&nbsp;it=20
already?!?&nbsp; But the company promoting this idea (<A=20
href=3D"http://www.magcap.com/about.php">http://www.magcap.com/about.php<=
/A>)&nbsp;has=20
supposedly been around since 1969 and is a defense contractor, so =
they&nbsp;do=20
not appear to be some fly-by-night outfit.&nbsp; Is this just crackpot =
nonsense=20
or has the answer to our energy problems been under our noses all=20
along???</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3DspnMessageText></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3DspnMessageText>One thing is for sure, it is amazing =
just how=20
important a role energy plays in our society.&nbsp; Decades of social=20
engineering have ensured that we are dependent on fossil fuels and now =
we even=20
fight&nbsp;wars over energy resources.&nbsp; A change to a far cheaper, =
more=20
abundant and much less polluting energy source would dramatically =
improve our=20
quality of life (and decrease the fossil fuel industry's profits =
dramatically,=20
which is why they are not pursuing such an enlightened =
path).</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3DspnMessageText></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3DspnMessageText>John C</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3DspnMessageText></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3DspnMessageText><FONT color=3Dblue><FONT =
size=3D4>MagCap=20
Engineering, LLC Announces 'Free' Unlimited Energy Source </FONT><FONT=20
size=3D3>Developed That Draws Power from the Environment=20
</FONT></FONT><BR><BR><FONT size=3D2>MagCap Engineering, LLC Announces =
'Free'=20
Unlimited Energy Source Developed That Draws Power from the Environment=20
<BR><BR>CANTON, Mass., Dec. 20 /PRNewswire/ -- An alternative electric =
power=20
generating system that draws energy from a seemingly unlikely yet =
abundant,=20
eminently renewable and virtually free power source has been submitted =
for=20
patenting by MagCap Engineering, LLC, Canton, Mass., in collaboration =
with=20
Gordon W. Wadle, an inventor from Thomson, Ill.<BR><BR>Wadle has =
invented a way=20
to capture the energy generated by a living non- animal organism -- such =
as a=20
tree. Chris Lagadinos, president of MagCap, developed circuitry that =
converts=20
this natural energy source into useable DC power capable of sustaining a =

continuous current to charge and maintain a battery at full =
charge.<BR><BR>"As=20
unbelievable as it sounds, we've been able to demonstrate the =
feasibility of=20
generating electricity in this manner," said Wadle. "While the =
development is in=20
its infancy, it has the potential to provide an unlimited supply of =
constant,=20
clean energy without relying on fossil fuels, a power generating plant =
complex=20
or an elaborate transmission network."<BR><BR>The developers now intend =
to=20
establish a collaborative agreement with a company, academic institution =
or=20
potential investors who can help finance the additional research and =
development=20
necessary to take the invention to the next level -- a practical, =
commercially=20
viable power generating system.<BR><BR>Wadle likened the invention to =
the=20
Discovery of electricity over 200 years ago when charged particles were=20
harnessed to create an electric current. "Now we've learned that there =
is an=20
immense, inexhaustible source of energy literally all around us that can =
be=20
harnessed and converted into usable electric power," he =
said.<BR><BR>Ultimately,=20
it should prove to be more practical than solar energy or wind power, =
and=20
certainly more affordable than fuel cells, he added.<BR><BR>Wadle said =
he got=20
the original idea of harnessing a tree for electrical energy from =
studying=20
lightening, more than 50 percent of which originates from the ground. =
This=20
prompted him to develop the theories resulting in a method to access =
this power=20
source. Lagadinos then designed circuitry that filtered and amplified =
these=20
energy emanations, creating a useable power source.<BR><BR>Basically, =
the=20
existing system includes a metal rod embedded in the tree, a grounding =
rod=20
driven into the ground, and the connecting circuitry, which filters and =
boosts=20
the power output sufficient to charge a battery. In its current =
experimental=20
configuration, the demonstration system produces 2.1 volts, enough to=20
continuously maintain a full charge in a nickel cadmium battery attached =
to an=20
LED light.<BR><BR>"Think of the environment as a battery, in this case," =
said=20
Lagadinos, "with the tree as the positive pole and the grounding rod as =
the=20
negative."<BR><BR>Near term -- within the next six months or so -- and =
with=20
additional research and development, Lagadinos said the system could be =
enhanced=20
enough to generate 12 volts and one amp of power, "a desirable power =
level that=20
could be used to power just about anything," he said.<BR><BR></FONT><A=20
href=3D"http://www.automotive.com/features/90/auto-news/17333/index.html"=
=20
target=3D_blank><FONT color=3D#00008b=20
size=3D2>http://www.automotive.com/features/90/auto-news/17333/index.html=
</FONT></A></SPAN></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_00DA_01C60668.E031E6D0--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 21 17:08:28 2005
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To: "Vortex" <vortex-L eskimo.com>
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Subject: Re:  'Free' Energy from the Environment?
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 20:08:13 -0500
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Here's the official press release regarding this free energy concept.  =
They have applied for a patent.

http://www.magcap.com/pdf/press_release.pdf
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Here's the official press release =
regarding this=20
free energy concept.&nbsp; They have applied for a patent.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A=20
href=3D"http://www.magcap.com/pdf/press_release.pdf">http://www.magcap.co=
m/pdf/press_release.pdf</A></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 21 17:21:28 2005
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From: OrionWorks <orionworks charter.net>
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Subject: Re: evolution, diversity vs complexity
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From: Harry Veeder
> 
> When you look at life what do you see?
> 
> 'Complexity' or 'diversity'?
> 
> The science of complexity has a long history, but the science
> of diversity is really just beginning. We can now define, construct and
> measure complexity in great mathematical detail, but what of diversity?
> 
> While diversity can be simulated by complexity, I do not think
> it is the same thing.
> 
> It seems to me the debate between the intelligent designers and the
> Darwinians is a debate about the extent to which life is diverse or whether
> life is complex. Unfortunately confusion, arrogance and fear dominates the
> debate.
> 
> Harry 

Indeed, much arrogance exists on this subject, and probably on both sides of the fence too.

At present my brain can't wrap itself around the concept of determining if there really is that much of a difference between those two words. There probably is and I just can't perceive it. Perhaps some in this group will take some satisfaction in my confession as it would imply that I'll shut my mouth.

Never the less, I'll risk offering up a related thought that some might find objectionable, possibly on both sides of the fence, too.

Upon reflection on the subject of ID, Intelligent Design, it's possible that I DO believe in it. (This is not to be misconstrued that I'm implying ID by the hands of those pesky aliens either! That's another subject altogether!) I'm speaking in much broader, more cosmic terms. 

Perhaps the definition of ID could exist in the manifested form of the Theory of Evolution itself - which science continues to unravel layer by layer in all of its Infinite Mysteries. With that confession revealed, I remain convinced that ID if it DOES exist has absolutely no place in the science room. The Theory of Evolution should continue to be taught within the context of objective scientific investigation. Likewise, discussions of ID, including the argument that The Theory of Evolution Itself shows the existence of an Intelligent Designer that may have been continuously tinkering away in her Cosmic Workshop, should be explored and discussed in the philosophy, mythology, and religious classrooms. Ironically, Science is ill-equipped to explore, let alone give an intelligent response to such conjecture.

Metaphorically and subjectively speaking, it seems to me that "Evolution" is a great Cosmic Game. Perhaps there are many players with different levels of experience and skill sets participating as well. I also find it amusing that this concept seems to upset a lot of people, particularly of the fundamental and/or orthodox religious persuasions.

One of my favorite movies was "Time Bandits." I loved the character of the Supreme Being.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

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You brave soul!

I'll have a look.

At 05:35 PM 12/21/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>I spent considerable time today -- too much time -- revising the Wikipedia 
>article on cold fusion, and adding sarcastic notes to the talk section:
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_fusion
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Cold_fusion
>
>This is a labor of Sisyphus that will probably be reverted and subverted 
>by the skeptics.
>
>The article is still chaotic and repetitive, and there is still quite a 
>bit of nonsense inserted by skeptics. But as I remarked in the talk 
>section, this is actually kind of a plus because it demonstrates how 
>deeply divisive the subject is, and also because the skeptics' comments 
>are so lame-brained they make us look good.
>
>- Jed
>
>

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To quote one of my favorite sources of philosophy:

http://documentedlife.com/bumpersticker.htm

"Militant agnostic:  I don't know and you don't know either."

Frank has faith in God, Jed has faith in CF.  Jed will be pleased with 
coal in his stocking.  <beg>

May the Force bless us every one.

-----Original Message-----
From: Grimer

To quote the Bard. "There are more things in........"

I trust that has cleared up any possible misunderstanding.

Happy Christmas,

And I hope Santa leaves something nice in your
stocking even if you don't believe in him.  <g>
___________________________________________________
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Jed....

Wow.... breathtaking amount of dialogue and work you did there....a noble 
effort.

I think the whole essence of it is as you say here:

"I think the problem is that the skeptics are stuck in a time warp in May 
1989. They are obsessed with trivial details such as what Pons said to 
Triggs. They cite only haphazard half-baked evaluations made of cold fusion 
at that time and they ignore all of the other evidence that has been 
published since then."

It would seem to me, that if a man does not want to accept something new, 
he can find an infinite number of ways to remain fixed in his opinion.

Someday these Wiki-skeptics are going to have a rude awakening.


S 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 21 19:14:20 2005
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From: hohlrauml6d netscape.net
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>From *my* POV, it's

"Happy ChristmaChannuKwanza"

And I am in and of the Spirit!

The four rules of this CA are:

1)  Love the cell above you
2)  Love the cell below you
3)  Love the cell to your right
4)  Love the cell to your left

Above all, Love Thyself and

ITERATE!

-----Original Message-----
From: hohlrauml6d

May the Force bless us every one. 
 
-----Original Message----- 
From: Grimer

Happy Christmas
___________________________________________________
Try the New Netscape Mail Today!
Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List
http://mail.netscape.com

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Subject: Re: New: large, old paper by Iyengar et al.
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Interesting.  I had some questions about some details, though.

Jones Beene wrote:
> Stephen A. Lawrence writes,
> 
>> Second, it took a while for it to sink in, but they kept talking about 
>> "anomalously low neutron counts" -- tritium was found, with just one 
>> neutron being emitted per ~ 10^7 tritium atoms produced.  I don't 
>> understand this.  They were using pure D20, so H+D->T is not a 
>> candidate reaction; in fact, it would appear that D+D->T+n is the only

Sigh ... as previously noted I mentally mutated a proton to a neutron 
here.  This equation, it no balance...

>> path that seems likely to produce tritium.  But then, where did the 
>> neutrons go?
> 
> 
> 
> Back in 1990 when Bockris first found tritium in LENR - he believed that 
> it was technically NOT a fusion product at all, but instead was a 
> fission product (from the lithium electrolyte).
> 
> Beyond that, the specific details and rationale for this reaction may 
> have changed over the years -
> 
> ...but recently a most unusual proposition is being floated around -a 
> 'quasi-spontaneous' photofission of 7Li --> 4He +3H in which the 7Li 
> could be either natural, or a previously undescribed nuclear isomer 
> (deformed nucleus) of lithium.

Now, according to my old 77th edition of the Rubber Bible, this is a 
rather endothermic reaction.  Rounding the numbers to 4 places to save 
typing, we have

   7Li    = 7.0160 amu
=====================

   4He    = 4.0026 amu
+ 3H     = 3.0160 amu
  --------------------
4He + 3H = 7.0186 amu

Net energy gain = -0.0026 amu = -2.43 MeV

So it's going to need a lot of encouragement to make it go, right?  A 
little bit of a nudge won't do it -- it needs a good sized whack.


> Like most putative LENR reactions - this is largely unknown to the 
> mainstream. There is some basis for believing that at least some LENR 
> tritium reactions (with a lithium electrolyte) could be described as 
> "photofission."  The closest thing for comparison in hot fusion is the 
> spallation reaction, in which a neutron is "boiled off" of a high Z 
> nucleus by the close approach (NOT Impact) of an approaching light 
> nucleus. The "photo" part comes from a photon-exchange.
> 
> The reason that a deuteron could conceivably do this - and not a proton 
> - is the partial electrostatic "shielding effect" of the neutron.

Shielding?  The neutron is neutral, it's not generally expected to 
shield anything.  Superposition and all that -- the fields just don't 
"see" it.  Unless, of course, it has a significant dipole moment.

Googling that exact issue indicates that current theory suggests the 
dipole moment of the neutron may or may not be nonzero, and no current 
experiment has as yet resolved the question.  (Or at least that's what I 
think I saw....)

If there's enough of a shielding effect to change the rate of 
collisions, near collisions, and nuclear interactions from the expected 
value for 2 nucleons with unit charge and no shielding, then I should 
think that effect would give a big enough handle to compute its dipole 
moment.  Certainly, at the least, it would offer proof that its dipole 
moment is nonzero.  That would be big news in the little world of 
particle physics, I would think, which suggests that so far no such 
shielding effect has been observed.

So, I conclude that you are speculating (a) that the neutron does indeed 
have a nonzero e-dipole, and (b) that it's large enough to result in a 
shielding effect in this case.

Is this more or less correct, or did my reasoning totally jump the 
tracks along here somewhere?


> 
> The assumption being that for a brief time, the approaching-deuteron's 
> neutron could shield it from the nuclear positive charge of 7Li (which 
> can be also partly shielded by its 4 neutrons - a most unusual ratio for 
> a light nucleus) allowing that deuteron to get close enough to where it 
> will cause an electroweak disruption, and subsequent photofission.
> 
> IOW the 'occasional' deuteron (on Boltzman's tail of energy) will be 
> accelerated to decent velocity - at the surface of Pd as it is first 
> brought into the electron shell of the Pd but then expelled - so that it 
> actually goes part of the way inside the electron shell of the Li, and 
> it is able to get closer to this nucleus than would a proton of the same 
> velocity, because of the partial shielding effect.
> 
> It would not surprise the more cynical observer to discover that this is 
> already being done secretly by DoD.
> 
> Jones
> 

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BlankOrionworks theorizes...

>Never the less, I'll risk offering up a related thought that some might =
find objectionable, possibly on both sides of the fence, too.

There are not sides to the fence. True science is science. Bring =
otherwise in where Vorts lurk and get hammered.

>Perhaps the definition of ID could exist in the manifested form of the =
Theory of Evolution itself - which science continues to unravel layer by =
layer in all of its Infinite Mysteries.=20

Steven Vincent states evolution  is a theory. He is being truthful. =
Evolution is only a theory not fact. A theory that has not been proven =
by scientific facts, never received peer review and remains in the realm =
of psuedo religious quackery( except in the halls of academia) as =
evidenced by the author Darwin who did finally admit his theory had a =
few holes( an understatement) but he meant well.

ID is a study of scientific facts designed to investigate the known (and =
unfolding scientific discoveries of the) material universe to determine =
if such facts support a theory that an intelligence above our can be =
demonstrated by such physical facts. Religionist support ID under the =
assumption ID theory will be proven which would support their religious =
beliefs. Wont happen because religion is faith, not science. What will =
happen is that scientific discovery will progress if left to science and =
not Darwinism.

Interesting that an ever increasing number of science students are =
casting both Darwin and his theory into the wastebasket of history ,much =
 to the objection by their professors.

Non the less, our esteemed Federal judge has ruled that quackery beats =
theory in the courthouse ..which is  where we should leave this subject =
and get back to stuff we know and trust.. like new energy, corruption in =
 politics, nekkid gals and why science funding went elsewhere .< grin>

Richard
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<DIV>Orionworks theorizes...</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&gt;Never the less, I'll risk offering up a related thought that =
some might=20
find objectionable, possibly on both sides of the fence, too.<BR></DIV>
<DIV>There are not sides to the fence. True science is science.=20
Bring&nbsp;otherwise in where Vorts lurk and get hammered.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&gt;Perhaps the definition of ID could exist in the manifested form =
of the=20
Theory of Evolution itself - which science continues to unravel layer by =
layer=20
in all of its Infinite Mysteries. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Steven Vincent states&nbsp;evolution &nbsp;is a theory. He is being =

truthful. Evolution is only a theory not fact.&nbsp;A theory that has =
not been=20
proven by scientific facts, never received peer review and remains in =
the realm=20
of psuedo religious quackery( except in the halls of academia)&nbsp;as =
evidenced=20
by the author Darwin who did finally admit his theory had a few holes( =
an=20
understatement) but he meant well.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>ID is a study of scientific facts designed to investigate the known =
(and=20
unfolding&nbsp;scientific discoveries of the)&nbsp;material universe to=20
determine if&nbsp;such facts support a theory that an&nbsp;intelligence =
above=20
our can be demonstrated by such physical facts. Religionist support ID =
under the=20
assumption ID theory will be proven which would support their religious =
beliefs.=20
Wont happen because religion is faith, not science. What will happen is =
that=20
scientific discovery will progress if left to science and not =
Darwinism.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Interesting that&nbsp;an ever increasing&nbsp;number of science =
students=20
are casting both Darwin and his theory into the wastebasket of history=20
,much&nbsp; to the objection by their professors.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Non the less, our esteemed Federal judge has ruled that quackery =
beats=20
theory in the courthouse ..which is &nbsp;where we should leave this =
subject and=20
get back to stuff we know and trust.. like new energy, corruption in=20
&nbsp;politics, nekkid&nbsp;gals and why science funding&nbsp;went=20
elsewhere&nbsp;.&lt; grin&gt;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Richard</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 21 19:59:12 2005
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Subject: Re: New: large, old paper by Iyengar et al.
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Stephen,


>   7Li    = 7.0160 amu 4He    = 4.0026 amu
> + 3H    = 3.0160 amu
>  --------------------
> 4He + 3H = 7.0186 amu

> Net energy gain = -0.0026 amu = -2.43 MeV


Well - yes - and that pretty much explains why - as others have 
noticed - that the OU energy and tritium (at the same time) are 
seldom witnessed in the same configuration.

> So it's going to need a lot of encouragement to make it go, 
> right?  A little bit of a nudge won't do it -- it needs a good 
> sized whack.

It turns out that this endotherm is very close to the exotherm of 
the two most common D reactions... maybe these occur in tandem? 
... or more likely in the QM world - that the endotherm is 
"borrowed" for a few femptoseconds, making the exothermic reaction 
more likely in probability.

Bottom line:

...isn't it a bit too coincidental that you can come out to nearly 
"net neutral" on the energy equation yet - still have lots (twice) 
the tritium of 'just' fusion reactions? This is in keeping with 
the observation Jed mentions of the absence of excess heat when 
large amounts of 3H are seen.

> So, I conclude that you are speculating (a) that the neutron 
> does indeed have a nonzero e-dipole

I think it is that is clear from the (dia)magnetic moment of the 
neutron ... plus there is independent evidence (from diffraction) 
of a negative near field for the neutron -which is one and the 
same as your nonzero e-dipole

>and (b) that it's large enough to result in a shielding effect in 
>this case

Yes.

> Is this more or less correct, or did my reasoning totally jump 
> the tracks along here somewhere?

This is good. There are still big gaps in the understanding but 
this is a much more satisfying explanation for many early 
experiments (better than D fusion alone) as it explains two 
unexpected phenomena which have been previously reported without a 
good explanation  - those being:

1) the abnormal branching ratio, favoring 3H instead of equal 
parts 3H and 3He - and this is only when lithium is used as an 
electrolyte.

2) the lack of excess heat - which would be otherwise unavoidable 
if fusion were the culprit.

...plus the fact that the energy deficit of one reaction is almost 
exactly the gain of the companion reaction makes the scenario most 
interesting.

Bravo!

Jones


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From: John.Rudiger carrier.utc.com
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-----Original Message-----
From: revtec [mailto:revtec PTD.NET]
Sent: Tuesday, 20 December 2005 12:18 AM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: ZPE, Naked Women and UFOs


I think it highly unlikely that we have in this world aliens coexisting with
angels.  We either have aliens masquerading as angels, or fallen angels
masquerading as aliens.  I personally suspect the latter.

Then, there is also option three for those who prefer it, that both angels
and aliens are imaginary.  It seems that one of these three choices must be
true.  Is there somebody out there able to pull enough facts together to
prove the truth in this matter?

Jeff


How about this explanation?

During many a theological "debate" with my mother, who is a Seventh Day
Adventist, over the existence of Aliens etc. she stated that her/the
churches belief is that there are many other sentient beings in this
universe. She tried to explain that there are many beings that have their
"eyes on us" as it is humanity that has been selected by GOD to have "free
will" as a test and to represent all sentient life in this Universe etc.
etc. etc. blah blah blah.....(this is when I really turned off!)

By this stage in the (heated) conversation I had usually had enough due to
my Atheist tendencies.
Although I still don't believe a word she said regarding humanity
representing all sentient life forms in this universe, I still thought it
was interesting that someone within the church had come up with a way of
removing "doubt" in the faithful from the congregation regarding the
existence of Aliens and including it as part of their doctrine rather than
completely dismissing the possibility of the existence of other life forms
not from Earth.

I'm sure there would be some reference material available from the SDA's to
fully explain their take on this better than I recall.

John.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 22 00:30:45 2005
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Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 08:30:09 +0000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Grimer <f.grimer grimer2.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: NKS 2006 Wolfram Science Conference
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At 10:13 pm 21/12/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>From *my* POV, it's
>
>"Happy ChristmaChannuKwanza"
>
>And I am in and of the Spirit!
>
>The four rules of this CA are:
>
>1)  Love the cell above you
>2)  Love the cell below you
>3)  Love the cell to your right
>4)  Love the cell to your left


I'm afraid the above illustrates one of
the scientific traps that putting things
down on two dimensional paper leads to, 
i.e. the failure to think in three dimensions.

What you should have written is,

>1)  Love the cell above you
>2)  Love the cell below you
>3)  Love the cell to your right
>4)  Love the cell to your left
>5)  Love the cell in front of you
>6)  Love the cell behind you.

I loved the "militant agnostic" 
bumper sticker quote, by the way.  8-)

A bit like liberals who want freedom for everyone except
people who disagree with them. Unfortunately the Church 
has been almost completely taken over by such at this 
point in time. 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 22 00:44:42 2005
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From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk
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Subject: RE: NKS 2006 Wolfram Science Conference
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Mike,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-modern

(Don't take this badly this is not a personal attack, only observation.)

I see a lot of this in the middle classes. It's a kind of trendy fashionable
complacency that comes of being a cultural elite and not having to strive or
work fro a living. Post-modernism is what you'll hear the chattering
Islington classes around a dinner table party going on about, that feeling
that it has all been done before or anything of value is done by hugely
funded government co-operations. It's all anti-individual, anti-heroic,
small-minded and petty that which comes of being educated beyond one's
ability. Needless to say these people want the cushy, well-paid
administrative type jobs but get in the way of progress.

If you want to see post-modernism take a trip down an art-house cinema, or
look at modern architecture or music.

I don't subscribe to philosophies that say give up and that our lot in life
is to suffer in ignorance. Yes there is a limit to the amount of information
a brain can comprehend but like statistical mechanics we can with our
limited powers find a rationale.

I get annoyed when I see the elite in the society giving up. This can only
set a bad example for the young or the less intelligent. Ultimately the
intellectual police force of the universities must police itself.
Regards,
Remi.

-----Original Message-----
From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On
Behalf Of Mike Carrell
Sent: 21 December 2005 16:28
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: NKS 2006 Wolfram Science Conference


----- Original Message ----- 
From: <R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk>
Subject: RE: NKS 2006 Wolfram Science Conference


> The bottom line is that the overwhelming complexity of the manifest 
> universe
>
> is arguably the result of the operation of something as simple as cellular
> automata, and that we have no hope of discovering the nature of that seed.
>
> Mike Carrell
>
> How's that? Prove it. Do we all give up and go home? Sounds like 
> post-modern
> science.
------------------
As I said, there is no substitiute for tackling Wolfram's book. There just 
isn't. The argument is advanced by the hundreds of illustarions of the 
operation of the cellular automata. This does not fit into any existing tidy

boxes except deterministic chaos theory, which is not tidy.

As for not being able to discover the seed, consider the Mandelbrot Set. The

operation of the generating equation produces a mathematical "object" of 
extreme complexity. However, examining the object will not disclose the 
equation which generated it. The Mandelbrot Set and Wolfram's cellular 
automata have the common feature that the generating operations are 
non-linear and recursive. A seminal book on the consequences of this is 
"Godel Escher Bach".

A remarkable feature of Wolfram's thesis is that the product of the the 
cellular automata can be some order as found in our scientific exploration 
of natural phenomena.

I'm not sure what the term "post modern" means, especially when applied to 
science. Certainly Wolfram's work is a new bemchmark among many other 
current studies of deterministic chaos and cellular automata.

Mike Carrell 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 22 00:51:16 2005
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Stephen,
I heard they want to chip us all as they do to pedigree horses and dogs. I
heard that on average 300 CCTV cameras will record one's image in the UK
coupled that to routine number plate scanning, mobile phone tracking.

Could it be that those who want this kind of power over us employ people to
write viruses or commit atrocities to scare us all in to giving up more
rights?

I just find it all sinister. I really want to unplug from it all, buy a plot
of land and live like the Amish (without the inbreeding though)!
Remi.

-----Original Message-----
From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On
Behalf Of Stephen A. Lawrence
Sent: 21 December 2005 17:46
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Correa attacks Wikipedia

Um ... wouldn't this make identity theft awfully easy?

<snip>
ETC.

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 <43A8C497.2080003 pobox.com> <43A9232E.10000@iinet.net.au>
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 03:23:09 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy usfamily.net>
Subject: Re: First Publicly Traded Cold Fusion Company
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>Stephen A. Lawrence wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>Steven Krivit wrote:
>>
>>>Does anyone know of any other publicly-traded company or 
>>>subsidiary besides D2Fusion that exists which is exclusively 
>>>geared toward R&D or commercialization of cold fusion?
>>
>>
>>http://www.d2fusion.com/


I visited the above website, AFAIK, they have yet to demonstrate any 
usable energy. I found another website of an Israeli startup company, 
very little energy, but 100% reproducable, which is good.





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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 22 01:43:10 2005
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Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 00:41:35 -0900
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Another variation on electrospark:

<http://www.earthtech.org/experiments/sparkly/report.html>

No excess energy, but uses AC, LiOH electrolyte, 6061 alloy Al rods,  
and is way up in the electrospark regime at 400 V.  Nice photos and  
description.

Horace Heffner

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 22 01:47:04 2005
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Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 03:47:11 -0600
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From: thomas malloy <temalloy usfamily.net>
Subject: Unlocking the Mystery of Life
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Vortexians;

I saw a preview of this video, Unlocking the Mystery of Life on 
Christian TV. Having studied enough biochemistry and cellular 
physiology to appreciate what they were animating, I find their 
argument quite convincing, although I sure that Jed Rothwell and Ed 
Storms will be unmoved. But, IMHO the video makes it plain that life 
at the molecular level is a machine and believing that random events 
produced it strains credulity.

Given the prejudiced actions of that appeals court judge who handed 
the I D advocates a defeat, I feel motivated to protest, if this be 
theology, than so be it. 
http://www.arn.org/arnproducts/videos/v026.htm

The Liberals (Socialists) have no respect for the freedom of speech 
which goes against their world view, witness what has happened 
(banning of politically incorrect and religions speech) were they 
have gotten power, the Communist countries and most universities, 
Dennis Prager.


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Subject: Re: First Publicly Traded Cold Fusion Company
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>>>>Does anyone know of any other publicly-traded company or subsidiary 
>>>>besides D2Fusion that exists which is exclusively geared toward R&D or 
>>>>commercialization of cold fusion?
>>>
>>>
>>>http://www.d2fusion.com/
>
>
> I visited the above website, AFAIK, they have yet to demonstrate any 
> usable energy. I found another website of an Israeli startup company, very 
> little energy, but 100% reproducable, which is good.
>

I agree that the d2fusion.com website is short on details, but perhaps that 
is on purpose, why give all their secrets away.  They don't do a very good 
job keeping their news current.  The public press releases from their parent 
company are rarely reflected on the d2fusion.com website in a timely manner, 
if ever.

Is the Israeli startup company Entergetics Technologies?  I tried to track 
down their website a few months ago without success.  If you could forward 
their website address, that would be great, I could add it to the write up I 
did on cold fusion commercial developments at: 
http://peswiki.com/index.php/PowerPedia:Cold_fusion#Ongoing_developments

Solar LTD/D2Fusion (Symbol: SLRE) is currently the only way to buy stock in 
a company that is publicly pursuing cold fusion.  The stock is now around 55 
cents per share and was around $1.40 per share a few months ago.  Obviously, 
if Solar LTD/D2Fusion actually made an announcement about a cold fusion 
device ready for the consumer market the stock would trade much higher.  A 
speculative stock if there ever was one, caution is advised.  But if they 
are serious about their intentions to market cold fusion it could take a 
wild ride higher at some point in the future. 

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In which case one should append:

7) Love the cell which came before you.
8) Love the cell which comes after you.

and deliberately avoid superstring theory.  :-)

-----Original Message-----
From: Grimer

What you should have written is,

>1)  Love the cell above you
>2)  Love the cell below you
>3)  Love the cell to your right
>4)  Love the cell to your left
>5)  Love the cell in front of you
>6)  Love the cell behind you.
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 22 06:51:27 2005
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From: "John Steck" <johnsteck tetrahelix.com>
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Subject: Mandelbrot Set fractal images
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Check this out... Pretty cool.
http://www.math.utah.edu/~alfeld/math/mandelbrot/mandelbrot.html#applet

-john

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Carrell [mailto:mikec medleas.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 10:28 AM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: NKS 2006 Wolfram Science Conference

As for not being able to discover the seed, consider the Mandelbrot Set. The

operation of the generating equation produces a mathematical "object" of 
extreme complexity. However, examining the object will not disclose the 
equation which generated it. The Mandelbrot Set and Wolfram's cellular 
automata have the common feature that the generating operations are 
non-linear and recursive. A seminal book on the consequences of this is 
"Godel Escher Bach".


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 22 08:02:34 2005
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From: OrionWorks <orionworks charter.net>
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Subject: Re: Unlocking the Mystery of Life
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> From: thomas malloy 

...

Setting the "Mysteries of Life" aside for the moment...

...

You quote Dennis Prager:

> The Liberals (Socialists) have no respect for the freedom of speech 
> which goes against their world view, witness what has happened 
> (banning of politically incorrect and religions speech) were they 
> have gotten power, the Communist countries and most universities, 
> Dennis Prager.

My spouse and I have been invited over to our neighbor's house for a Christmas eve dinner. We will meet their parents, have turkey and consume other wonderful things to eat as well. We will bring the Jewish bread, calla, as our contribution to the culinary celebration. I'll take a moment to pet their kitty and complement him on the large ground squirrel he caught the previous summer. I'll admire our neighbor's sparkling aluminum Christmas tree which I have been told is a shade of pink. Pink aluminum Christmas trees, I understand, are collector's items these days, and would fetch a pretty price on eBAY. The couple we're visiting, John and Fred, (not their real names) have lived next to us for close to five years now.

When individuals like Prager finally acquire the decency to allow individuals like John and Fred the same God given rights that he assumes God has given himself is the day I'll stop considering him to be a hypocrite. 

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 22 08:30:44 2005
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By the way, this was the paper that made John Huizenga turn green 
around the gills and flee, at an ICCF conference. It was a memorable moment.

- Jed


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Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 08:45:55 -0800 (PST)
From: Merlyn <merlyn_3k yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Atmospheric electric polarization
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It was my understanding that the electric polarization
has more to do with interaction with the earth's
magnetic field than with gravity.  You also need to
take into account cosmic radiation being absorbed into
the upper atmosphere.

--- David Jonsson <davidjonssonsweden gmail.com>
wrote:

> I read in vortex-l many years ago about the
> atmosphere on Jupiter or
> Saturn being electrically polarized. The author said
> that ions were
> more attracted by gravity than electrons.
> 
> It is also known on earth that there is an electric
> field of 90-150
> V/m. Is it caused by the same effect?
> 
> I am basically interested in electric polarization
> in pressure gradients.
> 
> David
> 
> 


Merlyn
Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 22 09:10:13 2005
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Careful you don't become a victim of Mandelmania like Edith Craig in 
Sir Clarke's "The Ghost From the Grand Banks".

-----Original Message-----
From: John Steck

Check this out... Pretty cool.
http://www.math.utah.edu/~alfeld/math/mandelbrot/mandelbrot.html#applet

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 22 09:35:13 2005
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Subject: Tandem-LENR: was- paper by Iyengar
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 09:34:35 -0800
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To further elaborate on a previous hypothesis for the appearance 
of significant 3H without excess heat - let's begin by suggesting 
the controversial proposition that any robust LENR cell is most 
likely operating on more than one modality - Ockham be damned - 
even if those modalities must interlock before success is 
guaranteed.

For instance, it is almost inconcievable that the basic underlying 
reactions of LENR do not involve quantum tunneling in addition to 
whatever normal macro EM processes (quasi-Lawson criteria) might 
be involved - and this sets the field far outside the range of 
normal nuclear physics. If the 'hydrino' or something like it it - 
is real - then it is almost inconcievable that in LENR the 
mechanics of the hydrino (deuterino) are not somehow involved in 
promoting nuclear reactions, such as transmutation or actual 
fusion (presumably with reduced output as no gamma signature is 
witnessed).

The appearance of tritium could be just such a hybrid - as there 
are two potential sources of this isotope - and these two 
modalities might be so intertwined that achieving higher than 
quantum-probability demands that both be active at the same site 
at the same time.

First - the endothermic photofission of lithium:

1)   7Li --> 4He + 3H  requiring  -2.43 MeV  (endotherm) of 
mass-energy

and then there is:

2)   D + D --> 3H(1.01 MeV) + 1H(3.02 MeV)

which is normally a branched reaction of nearly equal probability 
with:

3)   D + D --> 3He(0.82MeV) + n(2.45MeV)

The second reaction is the source of neutrons, which are seldom 
seen in LENR reactions, especially with lithium electrolytes.

Notice that the reation 2) produces a proton of sufficient energy 
to cause the photofission reaction 1) which will proceed with much 
higher probability then if a direct nuclear impact of the proton 
was needed. The can be autocatalytic in the reversed sense as 
well - for an arcane but proven QM reason.

Given that there are no other sources for such a fast proton, then 
the "net" reaction may depend on a tandem reaction of 2) followed 
by 1) which in turn increases the probability of 2) in an 
adjoining spatial geometry. IOW there is mutual synergy.

The actual "photon" involved in 1) which is a high energy gamma 
but is never witnessed externally for well-known reasons (direct 
exchange) comes from the Feynman exchange - the electroweak 
process (and his famous diagrams) as the proton passes-by on a 
"close" but non-impact interaction. That is: the close proximity 
of of an accelerating proton with a relatively stationary 7Li 
nucleus. The reaction will proceed much faster at lower 
temperatures, and in a confined matrix (even if it is a surface 
interface) since the Lithium provides a more stationary target at 
lower temps + partial confinement. The cross-section for 
photofission of lithium could in fact be as much as 10^6 times 
higher, based on the penetration needed for actual fusion (which 
is very low for H + Li).

This suggestion also provides an avenue for falsifiability - as an 
actively cooled cell, especially a crogenic cell, should produce 
more tritum than a warm one.

As mentioned, given that there are no other sources for such a 
fast proton, then the "net" reaction may depend on a tandem 
reaction of 2) followed by 1). It turns out that the required 
endotherm is very close to this exotherm ... so perhaps these 
reactions occur in tandem and with one further (gigantic) QM 
benefit - that being the enhancement of QM probability based on 
proximity considerations of like reactions(more on that later when 
I dig it out of some old files).

Bottom line: ...isn't it a bit too coincidental that in carefully 
documented experiments, you can come out to nearly "net neutral" 
on the energy equation yet - still have lots of tritium? ... what 
happend to the excess heat ?

Tiritum,by the way, is easy to find and document because of the 
well-known decay curve. The is almost 100% certainty that Claytors 
experiments are rick solid evidence for some of this. And 
furthermore this is all in keeping with the observation of the 
'absence' of noticable excess heat when  large amounts of 3H are 
seen.

Now - is it fair to say (albeit a bit immodestly) that there is a 
hypothetical rationale for explaining many previously 
contradictory observations of LENR ? - at least in the specialized 
set of experiments involving lithium and significant tritum.

Jones 

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Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 18:03:27 +0000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Grimer <f.grimer grimer2.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: NKS 2006 Wolfram Science Conference
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At 09:37 am 22/12/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>In which case one should append:
>
>7) Love the cell which came before you.
>8) Love the cell which comes after you.
>
>and deliberately avoid superstring theory.  :-)
>


Veerry good.

We only need two more and Jed can come down
from the mountain bearing Cold Fusion's
10 commandments.   8-)

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Subject: Re: Tandem-LENR: was- paper by Iyengar
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I had one point of slight interest to add here.

Jones Beene wrote:
> To further elaborate on a previous hypothesis for the appearance of 
> significant 3H without excess heat - let's begin by suggesting the 
> controversial proposition that any robust LENR cell is most likely 
> operating on more than one modality - Ockham be damned - even if those 
> modalities must interlock before success is guaranteed.
> 
> For instance, it is almost inconcievable that the basic underlying 
> reactions of LENR do not involve quantum tunneling in addition to 
> whatever normal macro EM processes (quasi-Lawson criteria) might be 
> involved - and this sets the field far outside the range of normal 
> nuclear physics. If the 'hydrino' or something like it it - is real - 
> then it is almost inconcievable that in LENR the mechanics of the 
> hydrino (deuterino) are not somehow involved in promoting nuclear 
> reactions, such as transmutation or actual fusion (presumably with 
> reduced output as no gamma signature is witnessed).
> 
> The appearance of tritium could be just such a hybrid - as there are two 
> potential sources of this isotope - and these two modalities might be so 
> intertwined that achieving higher than quantum-probability demands that 
> both be active at the same site at the same time.
> 
> First - the endothermic photofission of lithium:
> 
> 1)   7Li --> 4He + 3H  requiring  -2.43 MeV  (endotherm) of mass-energy
> 
> and then there is:
> 
> 2)   D + D --> 3H(1.01 MeV) + 1H(3.02 MeV)

This indicates that we _might_ expect 4MeV per tritium atom.

In the Iyengar paper Jed uploaded recently a number of tritium 
measurements were done which very nicely included an estimate of the 
total number of tritium atoms produced in each run.  The largest number 
they cited was about 10^16.  Let's go with this for a moment.

The Lautzenhiser paper, also uploaded recently, documented a successful 
2 month wet cell run.  Total (net) heat produced appears to have been 
about 50 kilojoules.  Total tritium produced doesn't seem to have been 
computed, unfortunately.

Let's suppose, arbitrarily, that the Lautzenhiser run also produced 
10^16 tritium atoms.  That would have been about 4e+16 MeV of energy, or 
about 6400 joules, unless I messed up the division.

That's about 13% of the total energy generated in the run.

I'm not sure it's necessary to explain away the "missing" heat from the 
tritium production, at least in this run; even if a totally conventional 
reaction produced the tritium it would have amounted to just a fraction 
of the total "OU out".

For whatever that's worth (which, given the fact that I got here by 
slobbing together data from two totally unrelated experiments, is 
probably not much)...

> 
> which is normally a branched reaction of nearly equal probability with:
> 
> 3)   D + D --> 3He(0.82MeV) + n(2.45MeV)
> 
> The second reaction is the source of neutrons, which are seldom seen in 
> LENR reactions, especially with lithium electrolytes.
> 
> Notice that the reation 2) produces a proton of sufficient energy to 
> cause the photofission reaction 1) which will proceed with much higher 
> probability then if a direct nuclear impact of the proton was needed. 
> The can be autocatalytic in the reversed sense as well - for an arcane 
> but proven QM reason.
> 
> Given that there are no other sources for such a fast proton, then the 
> "net" reaction may depend on a tandem reaction of 2) followed by 1) 
> which in turn increases the probability of 2) in an adjoining spatial 
> geometry. IOW there is mutual synergy.
> 
> The actual "photon" involved in 1) which is a high energy gamma but is 
> never witnessed externally for well-known reasons (direct exchange) 
> comes from the Feynman exchange - the electroweak process (and his 
> famous diagrams) as the proton passes-by on a "close" but non-impact 
> interaction. That is: the close proximity of of an accelerating proton 
> with a relatively stationary 7Li nucleus. The reaction will proceed much 
> faster at lower temperatures, and in a confined matrix (even if it is a 
> surface interface) since the Lithium provides a more stationary target 
> at lower temps + partial confinement. The cross-section for photofission 
> of lithium could in fact be as much as 10^6 times higher, based on the 
> penetration needed for actual fusion (which is very low for H + Li).
> 
> This suggestion also provides an avenue for falsifiability - as an 
> actively cooled cell, especially a crogenic cell, should produce more 
> tritum than a warm one.
> 
> As mentioned, given that there are no other sources for such a fast 
> proton, then the "net" reaction may depend on a tandem reaction of 2) 
> followed by 1). It turns out that the required endotherm is very close 
> to this exotherm ... so perhaps these reactions occur in tandem and with 
> one further (gigantic) QM benefit - that being the enhancement of QM 
> probability based on proximity considerations of like reactions(more on 
> that later when I dig it out of some old files).
> 
> Bottom line: ...isn't it a bit too coincidental that in carefully 
> documented experiments, you can come out to nearly "net neutral" on the 
> energy equation yet - still have lots of tritium? ... what happend to 
> the excess heat ?
> 
> Tiritum,by the way, is easy to find and document because of the 
> well-known decay curve. The is almost 100% certainty that Claytors 
> experiments are rick solid evidence for some of this. And furthermore 
> this is all in keeping with the observation of the 'absence' of 
> noticable excess heat when  large amounts of 3H are seen.
> 
> Now - is it fair to say (albeit a bit immodestly) that there is a 
> hypothetical rationale for explaining many previously contradictory 
> observations of LENR ? - at least in the specialized set of experiments 
> involving lithium and significant tritum.
> 
> Jones
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 22 11:08:48 2005
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Subject: Re: Tandem-LENR: was- paper by Iyengar
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 11:08:18 -0800
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Stephen,

>> 1)   7Li --> 4He + 3H  requiring  -2.43 MeV  (endotherm) of 
>> mass-energy

>> and then there is:

>> 2)   D + D --> 3H(1.01 MeV) + 1H(3.02 MeV)

> This indicates that we _might_ expect 4MeV per tritium atom.


Not really - if the two reactions are (approximately) interlocking 
and mutually dependent (in the sense of high probability).

All but ~600 keV for the proton is lost - and then the rest 
divided between the two tritium's - so there is a net of ~800 keV 
per tritium produced - not exactly chump change but over five 
times less than would be expected from straight fusion of 
deuterium.

Jones

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 22 11:12:05 2005
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10 were written in concrete; but, Mosaic law includes over 600.

Speaking of string theory, you might like this:

http://www.newscientist.com/channel/opinion/mg18825305.800.html

Lenny Susskind's theory is running up against the anthropic principle.  
He acknowledges that string theory likely predicts not merely 1,000,000 
universes but 10^500 such vacuums.  His last two statements:

"Without any explanation of nature's fine-tunings we will be hard 
pressed to answer the ID critics. One might argue that the hope that a 
mathematically unique solution will emerge is as faith-based as ID."

of course speak of those six numbers Sir Martin Rees discussed in his 
book:

http://www.accampbell.uklinux.net/bookreviews/r/rees-2.html

Amazin' that you Brits were able to avoid genetic degeneration what 
living on an island and all.

-----Original Message-----
From: Grimer

We only need two more and Jed can come down
from the mountain bearing Cold Fusion's
10 commandments.   8-)


___________________________________________________
Try the New Netscape Mail Today!
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 22 11:18:14 2005
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
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Subject: Re: Tandem-LENR: was- paper by Iyengar
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As an aside.

What would be wrong with applying a high electrostatic field
across a D-loaded Pd  foil?
This should unbalance the internal charges in the interstices
enough to let the Pd charge push the deuterons over the
repulsive D-D coulomb barrier. No?

Then take what you can get CF-wise.

Fred




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Subject: Re: Tandem-LENR: was- paper by Iyengar
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Jones Beene wrote:
> Stephen,
> 
>>> 1)   7Li --> 4He + 3H  requiring  -2.43 MeV  (endotherm) of mass-energy
> 
> 
>>> and then there is:
> 
> 
>>> 2)   D + D --> 3H(1.01 MeV) + 1H(3.02 MeV)
> 
> 
>> This indicates that we _might_ expect 4MeV per tritium atom.
> 
> 
> 
> Not really - if the two reactions are (approximately) interlocking and 
> mutually dependent (in the sense of high probability).
> 
> All but ~600 keV for the proton is lost - and then the rest divided 
> between the two tritium's - so there is a net of ~800 keV per tritium 
> produced - not exactly chump change but over five times less than would 
> be expected from straight fusion of deuterium.

Yes, I followed that.  I was just wondering how much heat would be 
produced by the tritium production in the _absence_ of a balancing 
reaction, _and_ with the assumption that it's the conventional 
2H+2H->3H+1H reaction that's producing it.

Tritium never seems to appear in large quantities; perhaps, I thought, 
whatever reaction is causing it is just at so low a rate that its heat 
of production is overlooked or below the detection threshhold -- perhaps 
it's just dwarfed by the 2H+2H->4He reaction.  (I believe this is what 
Ed Storms has suggested in the past.)

If that's the case then there may be no need to assume a balancing 
reaction, which in turn depends on some rather uncertain additional 
assumptions about as yet undiscovered properties of neutrons in order to 
make it possible.

One would need to look closely at experiments which showed excess heat 
and tritium, and which included enough data to compute total energy 
generated and total number of tritium atoms produced to come to any sort 
of conclusion.  The very crude calculation I did just produced a very 
squishy rough ballpark number, but it suggests that perhaps this line of 
reasoning is not so far off.

Based on other comments on this list, and particularly those by Ed 
Storms, I'm reasonably confident that this calculation has already been 
done, a number of times, and the conclusion drawn was that the heat of 
tritium production was indeed a small fraction of the total excess. 
Unfortunately I haven't been paying close enough attention to be sure of 
that.


> 
> Jones
> 
> 

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Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 14:23:56 -0500
From: Harry Veeder <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: evolution, diversity vs complexity
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OrionWorks wrote:

> From: Harry Veeder
>> 
>> When you look at life what do you see?
>> 
>> 'Complexity' or 'diversity'?
>> 
>> The science of complexity has a long history, but the science
>> of diversity is really just beginning. We can now define, construct and
>> measure complexity in great mathematical detail, but what of diversity?
>> 
>> While diversity can be simulated by complexity, I do not think
>> it is the same thing.
>> 
>> It seems to me the debate between the intelligent designers and the
>> Darwinians is a debate about the extent to which life is diverse or whether
>> life is complex. Unfortunately confusion, arrogance and fear dominates the
>> debate.
>> 
>> Harry 
> 
> Indeed, much arrogance exists on this subject, and probably on both sides of
> the fence too.
> 
> At present my brain can't wrap itself around the concept of determining if
> there really is that much of a difference between those two words. There
> probably is and I just can't perceive it. Perhaps some in this group will take
> some satisfaction in my confession as it would imply that I'll shut my mouth.


A possible approach is to consider the number of invariants in each system.
Complexity manifests a small number of invariants which means it is allied
with reductionism. Diversity manifests an unlimited number of invariants.

Harry 

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Stephen A. Lawrence wrote:

> 
> 
> Jones Beene wrote:
> 
>> Stephen,
>>
>>>> 1)   7Li --> 4He + 3H  requiring  -2.43 MeV  (endotherm) of mass-energy
>>
>>
>>
>>>> and then there is:
>>
>>
>>
>>>> 2)   D + D --> 3H(1.01 MeV) + 1H(3.02 MeV)
>>
>>
>>
>>> This indicates that we _might_ expect 4MeV per tritium atom.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Not really - if the two reactions are (approximately) interlocking and 
>> mutually dependent (in the sense of high probability).
>>
>> All but ~600 keV for the proton is lost - and then the rest divided 
>> between the two tritium's - so there is a net of ~800 keV per tritium 
>> produced - not exactly chump change but over five times less than 
>> would be expected from straight fusion of deuterium.
> 
> 
> Yes, I followed that.  I was just wondering how much heat would be 
> produced by the tritium production in the _absence_ of a balancing 
> reaction, _and_ with the assumption that it's the conventional 
> 2H+2H->3H+1H reaction that's producing it.
> 
> Tritium never seems to appear in large quantities; perhaps, I thought, 
> whatever reaction is causing it is just at so low a rate that its heat 
> of production is overlooked or below the detection threshhold -- perhaps 
> it's just dwarfed by the 2H+2H->4He reaction.  (I believe this is what 
> Ed Storms has suggested in the past.)
> 
> If that's the case then there may be no need to assume a balancing 
> reaction, which in turn depends on some rather uncertain additional 
> assumptions about as yet undiscovered properties of neutrons in order to 
> make it possible.
> 
> One would need to look closely at experiments which showed excess heat 
> and tritium, and which included enough data to compute total energy 
> generated and total number of tritium atoms produced to come to any sort 
> of conclusion.  The very crude calculation I did just produced a very 
> squishy rough ballpark number, but it suggests that perhaps this line of 
> reasoning is not so far off.
> 
> Based on other comments on this list, and particularly those by Ed 
> Storms, I'm reasonably confident that this calculation has already been 
> done, a number of times, and the conclusion drawn was that the heat of 
> tritium production was indeed a small fraction of the total excess. 
> Unfortunately I haven't been paying close enough attention to be sure of 
> that.

You are right, these calculations have been made.  However,  the 
calculations are based on the rate of tritium production, not on the 
total number of atoms because heat is measured as power.  The amount of 
  calculated power is always too small to measure.

Ed
> 
>>
>> Jones
>>
>>
> 
> 

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For a short term high field applied to a deuterated Pd foil as opposed to
electrostatic induction.

http://www.unitekequipment.com/Products_Node_View.asp?id=40096

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Features: 
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> [Original Message]
> From: Frederick Sparber <fjsparber earthlink.net>
> To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> Date: 12/22/2005 12:17:55 PM
> Subject: Re: Tandem-LENR: was- paper by Iyengar
>
> As an aside.
>
> What would be wrong with applying a high electrostatic field
> across a D-loaded Pd  foil?
> This should unbalance the internal charges in the interstices
> enough to let the Pd charge push the deuterons over the
> repulsive D-D coulomb barrier. No?
>
> Then take what you can get CF-wise.
>
> Fred
>
>
>



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Subject: Science and Reality
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One definition of reality could be this:  Matter and energy distributed =
in various combinations across a finite space.  Within these confines we =
have the natural.  Anything outside of this is unnatural, or =
supernatural.

Reality only feels real because we have five senses, composed of sensors =
which are also made of matter and energy, that feed our conscious mind =
(whatever that is), and allows us to be aware of the reality.

Science investigates specific aspects and details of this interaction of =
matter and energy to give us better understanding of our surroundings.  =
With this understanding we are then better able to manipiulate our =
surroundings to make our existence more enjoyable and perhaps more =
meaningful.  Technology is then a measure of our ability to manipulate =
our surroundings.

A.C. Clarke once said that "technology, sufficiently advanced, will =
always be mistaken for magic."  If this is true, then even the most =
amazing observations we make in our reality should have a foundation =
based on scientific principles that can ultimately be understood.  But, =
is there real magic that goes beyond the confines of our "matter and =
energy" reality?

Consider the term: magic trick

It is an oxymoron.  A trick is not magic, and magic is no trick.  A =
trick is the manipulation of matter and energy, in an artful manner, so =
as to fool the senses of observers, and convince them that the event =
falls outside the boundaries of reality.  This is routinely done by =
skilled practitioners with some very basic technology.

Real magic, if it exists, by definition eminates from beyond our "matter =
and energy" reality.  Real magic could include anything from miracles =
down to evil spells.  Are these things beyond science, or is the problem =
merely that present scientific tools are just too primitive to deal with =
these incidents?  Do we ignore these intrusions on our comfortable =
reality because we are not up to the task of investigating them, or do =
we face it head on?  Do we say that we are going to do our science in =
our comfortable little corner of reality, and turn our backs on the big =
picture?  Do we say, "This is too tough for me to face.  I'm not going =
to deal with it."?

I have seen responses of fear and denial on this forum.  Should our =
discussions be controlled by either of those?  We are all considered =
lunatics anyway for contemplating the existence of hydrinos, among other =
things.  Let us keep open minds on anything that can affect the path of =
alternate energy development, even if it seems off topic to some.  =
Perhaps we could have a set of spam codes more specific than "off topic" =
to protect the fearful, the scoffers, and the thoroughly annoyed.

Jeff
P.S.  I have responded to many religious threads on this forum, but =
avoided starting any.  This is the brightest group of people I have ever =
corresponded with.  The diversity of beliefs and opinions voiced here is =
absolutely astounding.  I am having a really good time with some of =
these discussions.



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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1498" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>One definition of reality could be =
this:&nbsp;=20
Matter and energy distributed in various combinations across a finite=20
space.&nbsp; Within these confines we have the natural.&nbsp; Anything =
outside=20
of this is unnatural, or supernatural.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Reality only feels real because we have =
five=20
senses, composed of sensors which are also made of matter and energy, =
that feed=20
our conscious mind (whatever that is), and allows us to be aware of the=20
reality.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Science investigates specific aspects =
and details=20
of this interaction of matter and energy to give us better understanding =
of our=20
surroundings.&nbsp; With this understanding we are then better able to=20
manipiulate our surroundings to make our existence more enjoyable and =
perhaps=20
more meaningful.&nbsp; Technology is then a measure of our ability to =
manipulate=20
our surroundings.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>A.C. Clarke once said that "technology, =

sufficiently advanced, will always be mistaken for magic."&nbsp; If this =
is=20
true, then even the most amazing observations we make in our reality =
should have=20
a foundation based on scientific principles that can ultimately be=20
understood.&nbsp; But, is there real magic that goes beyond the confines =
of our=20
"matter and energy" reality?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Consider the term: magic =
trick</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>It is an oxymoron.&nbsp; A trick is not =
magic, and=20
magic is no trick.&nbsp; A trick is the manipulation of matter and =
energy, in an=20
artful manner, so as to fool the senses of observers, and convince them =
that the=20
event falls outside the boundaries of reality.&nbsp; This is routinely =
done by=20
skilled practitioners with some very basic technology.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Real magic, if it exists, by definition =
eminates=20
from beyond our "matter and energy" reality.&nbsp; Real magic could =
include=20
anything from miracles down to evil spells.&nbsp; Are these things =
beyond=20
science, or is the problem&nbsp;merely that present scientific tools are =
just=20
too primitive to deal with these incidents?&nbsp; Do we ignore these =
intrusions=20
on our comfortable reality because we are not up to the task of =
investigating=20
them, or do we face it head on?&nbsp; Do we say that we are going to do =
our=20
science in our comfortable little corner of reality, and turn our backs =
on the=20
big picture?&nbsp; Do we say, "This is too tough for me to face.&nbsp; =
I'm not=20
going to deal with it."?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I have seen responses of fear and =
denial on this=20
forum.&nbsp; Should our discussions be controlled by either of =
those?&nbsp; We=20
are all considered lunatics anyway for contemplating the existence of =
hydrinos,=20
among other things.&nbsp; Let us keep open minds on anything that can =
affect the=20
path of alternate energy development, even if it&nbsp;seems off topic to =

some.&nbsp; Perhaps we could have a set of spam codes&nbsp;more=20
specific&nbsp;than "off topic" to protect the fearful, the scoffers, and =
the=20
thoroughly annoyed.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Jeff</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>P.S.&nbsp; I have responded to many =
religious=20
threads on this forum, but avoided starting any.&nbsp; This is the =
brightest=20
group of people I have ever corresponded with.&nbsp; The diversity of =
beliefs=20
and opinions voiced here is absolutely astounding.&nbsp; I am having a =
really=20
good time with some of these discussions.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: ThomasClark123 aol.com
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Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 16:07:03 EST
Subject: Aether Theory
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I read some links on Aether Theory which described that there were  7 Layers 
of Higher Aether, then 7 Astral Layers, then the Physical Layers, and 7 Lower 
Ether Layers. The Lower Ether is said to have been 2000 times more dense than 
lead but passes through  physical objects - perhaps due to being scalar or 
longitudinal whereas the physical emf waves and energies are transverse.  The 
counter universe of the physical universe follows inverse laws to the physical, 
so that the more denser an object in the counter universe then the more it will 
pass through physical matter in the physical universe, whereas the more dense 
an object is in the physical universe the more it cannot pass through 
physical matter.

Nikola Tesla and Richard Wagner stated that they could connect their minds to 
an Aether information network and computer system located in secret temples 
on Earth and between planets which allowed them to pull up information, do 
work, and save information directly from their minds connected to the Aether 
information network computer system on Earth. The same book stated that Tesla was 
brought to Earth from the planet Venus. Tesla lived alone separate from others 
most of his life, since his spiritual body and energy frequencies were to high 
and sensitive that he could not be around others with lower frequencies for 
very long.  The book also stated that Tesla faked his death and relocated to a 
secret city that he and some of his associates built in an empty underground 
cavern under a mountain in Venezuela, where they perfected their flying saucer 
technologies, and flew to the moon and mars around the 1940's to 1950's.

Baron Von Volsung, http://www.rhfweb.com/baron, Email: 
http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html
President Thomas D. Clark, Email: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html, 
Personal Web Page: http://www.rhfweb.com/personal
New Age Production's Inc., http://www.rhfweb.com/newage
Star Haven Community Services, at http://www.rhfweb.com/sh
Radiation Health Foundation Trust at http://www.rhfweb.com/

Making a difference one person at a time
Get informed. Inform others.

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<BODY style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fffff=
f">
<DIV>I read some links on Aether Theory which described that there were&nbsp=
;&nbsp;7 Layers of Higher Aether, then&nbsp;7 Astral Layers, then the&nbsp;P=
hysical Layers, and&nbsp;7 Lower Ether Layers. The Lower Ether is said to ha=
ve been 2000 times more dense than lead but passes through&nbsp; physical ob=
jects - perhaps due to being scalar or longitudinal whereas the physical emf=
 waves and energies are transverse. &nbsp;The counter universe of the physic=
al universe follows inverse laws to the physical, so that the more denser an=
 object in the counter universe then the more it will pass through physical=20=
matter in the physical universe, whereas the more dense an object is in the=20=
physical universe the more it cannot pass through physical matter.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Nikola Tesla and Richard Wagner stated that they could connect their mi=
nds to an Aether information network and computer system located in secret&n=
bsp;temples on Earth and between planets which allowed them to pull up infor=
mation, do work, and save information&nbsp;directly from their minds connect=
ed to the Aether information network computer system on Earth. The same book=
 stated that Tesla was brought to Earth from the planet Venus. Tesla lived a=
lone separate from others most of his life, since his spiritual body and ene=
rgy frequencies were to high and sensitive that he could not be around other=
s with lower frequencies for very long.&nbsp; The book also stated that Tesl=
a faked his death and relocated to a secret city that he and some of his ass=
ociates built in an empty underground cavern under a mountain in Venezuela,=20=
where they perfected their flying saucer technologies, and flew to the moon=20=
and mars around the 1940's to 1950's.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Baron Von Volsung, <A title=3Dhttp://www.rhfweb.com/baron href=3D"http:=
//www.rhfweb.com/baron">http://www.rhfweb.com/baron</A>, Email: <A title=3Dh=
ttp://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html href=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.=
html">http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html</A><BR>President Thomas D. Clark,=
 Email: <A title=3Dhttp://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html href=3D"http://www.r=
hfweb.com/emailform.html">http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html</A>, <BR>Pers=
onal Web Page: <A title=3Dhttp://www.rhfweb.com/personal href=3D"http://www.=
rhfweb.com/personal">http://www.rhfweb.com/personal</A><BR>New Age Productio=
n's Inc., <A title=3Dhttp://www.rhfweb.com/newage href=3D"http://www.rhfweb.=
com/newage">http://www.rhfweb.com/newage</A><BR>Star Haven Community Service=
s, at <A title=3Dhttp://www.rhfweb.com/sh href=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/sh">=
http://www.rhfweb.com/sh</A><BR>Radiation Health Foundation Trust at <A titl=
e=3Dhttp://www.rhfweb.com/ href=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/">http://www.rhfweb=
.com/</A><BR><BR><B>Making a difference one person at a time<BR>Get informed=
. Inform others</B>.</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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-------------------------------1135285867
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"Occult Ether Physics Tesla's Hidden Space Propulsion System and the 
Conspiracy to Conceal It  By William Lyne, 2000:

Teslas technology which electromagnetically canceled inertia and synthesized 
a new momentum instantaneously

Inertia is the momentum  which a body at rest already posses because it is in 
a state of uniform motion, but which to us appears to be at rest,  Teslas 
technology uses the electromagnetic interaction, which is 10^40 times stronger 
than gravity to create a tremendous propelling force which instantaneously 
reprograms the atoms and molecules of a ship with new microhelical tubes of force 
along a new trajectory and destroys the memories of the tubes of force which 
created its prior inertia momentum. 

Electropulsion is a free energy process in which energy existing in the 
environment - gravity and momentum are overcome by and replaced with the naturally 
stronger force of electromagnetism to perform a greater amount of work during 
a given time which theoretically is 10^40 times more work using a smaller 
amount of input energy to trigger the change.  

The process which makes electropulsion possible, is the dynamis of the 
universe, which naturally exchanges weaker and stronger forces to conserve perpetual 
motion, with any lost momentum being resupplied by the ZPR. Quoted From Pg 41 
Occult Ether Physics Teslas Hidden Space Propulsion System and the Conspiracy 
to Conceal It  By William Lyne, 2000"

-------------------------------1135285867
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML><HEAD>
<META charset=3DUS-ASCII http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; cha=
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<BODY style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fffff=
f">
<DIV>"Occult Ether Physics Tesla's Hidden Space Propulsion System and the Co=
nspiracy to Conceal It&nbsp; By William Lyne, 2000:</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Teslas technology which electromagnetically canceled inertia and synthe=
sized a new momentum instantaneously</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Inertia is the momentum&nbsp; which a body at rest already posses becau=
se it is in a state of uniform motion, but which to us appears to be at rest=
,&nbsp; Teslas technology uses the electromagnetic interaction, which is 10^=
40 times stronger than gravity to create a tremendous propelling force which=
 instantaneously reprograms the atoms and molecules of a ship with new micro=
helical tubes of force along a new trajectory and destroys the memories of t=
he tubes of force which created its prior inertia momentum. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Electropulsion is a free energy process in which energy existing in the=
 environment - gravity and momentum are overcome by and replaced with the na=
turally stronger force of electromagnetism to perform a greater amount of wo=
rk during a given time which theoretically is 10^40 times more work using a=20=
smaller amount of input energy to trigger the change.&nbsp; </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The process which makes electropulsion possible, is the dynamis of the=20=
universe, which naturally exchanges weaker and stronger forces to conserve p=
erpetual motion, with any lost momentum being resupplied by the ZPR. Quoted=20=
>From Pg 41 Occult Ether Physics Teslas Hidden Space Propulsion System and th=
e Conspiracy to Conceal It&nbsp; By William Lyne, 2000"<BR></DIV></BODY></HT=
ML>

-------------------------------1135285867--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 22 13:33:48 2005
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From: Horace Heffner <hheffner mtaonline.net>
Subject: Beta Aether Involved?
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 12:31:59 -0900
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The AIP article below notes an unexpected collimated behavior of sand  
even in a vacuum.  It says the anomalous "thinner spiky jet" remains  
even in a vacuum.  The "lower, thicker jet" is accounted for by sand- 
air interaction, but no reason for the spiky jet effects remaining in  
a vacuum are given.  Beta Aether Involved?

Begin Quote:
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
PHYSICS NEWS  
UPDATE                                                     	
The American Institute of Physics Bulletin of Physics News
Number 759   December 22, 2005  by Phillip F. Schewe, Ben Stein

FAST X-RAY PICTURES OF SAND JETS.  Granular materials---possessing
both solid-like and liquid-like characteristics---exhibit much
strange emergent behavior even in the simplest of experiments.
When, for example, a heavy sphere is dropped into a bed of sand,
what happens, if you look carefully enough, can still surprise
seasoned researchers.  Heinrich Jaeger of the University of Chicago
and his colleagues watched the jets kicked up by the sphere: they
used high speed video and ordinary light to view the outside of the
jets and high-speed radiography (the x rays supplied by the Advanced
Photon Source at Argonne) of the jet interior.  The impact kicked up
a bizarre two-tiered jet structure: a thick shaft at the bottom and,
projecting up out of the top, a further and thinner shaft (see
figures at http://jfi.uchicago.edu/~jaeger/group/granular.html ).
That the jets are so well collimated is a surprise: why doesn't the
sand just fly out at all angles?  In moving up in a sort of directed
beam, with very little lateral motion, it seems to act like an
ultracold gas (at least in the sideways direction).  Another
surprise is the twofold jet structure.  The lower, thicker jet is
surely sculpted by collisions between sand grains and air molecules
since it gets progressively scantier until, at pressures close to
vacuum, it goes away altogether, leaving only the thinner spiky
jet.  The jet interior pictures are unprecedented: taken with an
exposure rate of 5000 frames per second, the x ray flux provided the
equivalent of a 50-watt halogen lamp illumination---only at x-ray
wavelengths.  The x-ray pictures proved that air squeezed among the
grains was the driving force in forcing up the thick stage of the
jet formation, and not as one might have expected a force for
dissipating the jet.  (Royer et al., Nature Physics, December 2005;
by the way, Nature Physics is a new journal that began publication
in October 2005.)
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
End quote of AIP article.

Horace Heffner



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 22 13:53:17 2005
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Subject: Christmas present from M. Srinivasan
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Mahadeva "Chino" Srinivasan sent me a nice Christmas present: an 
original Polaroid autoradiograph showing the tritium generated in a 
Plasma Focus device with deuterium gas loading. It even looks like a 
Christmas tree decoration. See:

http://lenr-canr.org/Experiments.htm#AutoradiographsMSrinivasan

I scanned this at high resolution (1200 dpi), so if someone would 
like to see a larger copy, contact me. I was not sure whether to call 
this the "negative" or the "positive" image, since x-rays are reversed.

Chino also sent me a collection of papers in a book, roughly 60 pages 
long, titled, "BARC Studies in Cold Fusion (April -- September 
1989)," December 1989, Bhabha Atomic Research Centre, Bombay, India. 
This is a large book but I plan to scan the entire thing and upload 
it. That will take weeks, if not months.

- Jed


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This should rile the bastards. Maybe even make them think. See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_fusion#Reproducibility_of_excess_heat

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 22 14:47:18 2005
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Subject: Concerning Reality in an Arbitrary Universe
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 16:46:51 -0600
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In science , we are accustomed to think in reductionist terms and search
for a cause whenever we see an interesting effect - but what if we
looked at
the world in the other direction?  Suppose we started with the fact that
the universe is ultimately arbitrary?

To some, the idea that the universe "just is" on its most basic level
seems shocking at first and unexpected.  Even so,  some scientists are
brave enough to
expound on it ( such as Victor Mansfield in his books) or use it as an
explanation for puzzling observations ( Stenger - in explaining
"decoherence" as an
alternative to non-locality).  At some point, you just 'run out' of
fundamental particles or physical constants to explain stuff. After
that, the universe "just is".

If we accept that the quantum world is the bottom rung of the reality
ladder, then it is the ultimate, arbitrary reality.  The quantum world
"just is".
However,  what aspects of the macro world are purely arbitrary?
Schrodinger's cat suggests that macro effects could be uncaused,  they
"just are".

While the thought of dropping reductionism probably seems repellent to
the current climate of science,  it may be inevitable.  Non-locality,
complex
organisms that rely on feeble amounts of genetic code ( do we really
share 30% of our genes with a banana?) , the failure of artificial
intelligence
development by the Japanese ( after spending hundreds of millions on it)
and the appearance of "emergent" behavior all suggest that reductionism
may not be enough. Does it ever seem that, although the Newtonian view
of a mechanical universe is obsolete, we are still struggling to
maintain
a mechanical viewpoint, while nature keeps slipping effects between the
moving gears, somehow?

Ghosts? UFOs?  ESP? Life after death?  I don't know.  I only know that
appeals to structures of scientific reasoning can't exclude anything as
Impossible.  Einstein's cozy comforts that the universe is knowable and
consistent may go the way of the dinosaur if contradictory theories
are practical - but permanently unresolved. 

Is biology really just a subset of physics and chemistry in its
entirety?  It doesn't look that way to me - and, if so,  I've got bad
news for the nanotech
people - you may be doomed to failure if you think of imitating life in
mechanical terms. There's too much "just is-ness" involved in living
things.
The same goes for past artificial intelligence research that looked for
axioms or "rules" that weren't there.  

I think that the controversy over "Intelligent Design" is very useful in
that it forces academics to begin to analyse exactly what's reduceable
and what isn't, rather than papering over difficulties solved by God -
or "just so" stories told by Darwinists. 








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Subject: Re: ZPE, Naked Women and UFOs
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 18:48:35 -0500
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: <John.Rudiger carrier.utc.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2005 2:46 AM
Subject: RE: ZPE, Naked Women and UFOs


>>
> How about this explanation?
>
> During many a theological "debate" with my mother, who is a Seventh Day
> Adventist, over the existence of Aliens etc. she stated that her/the
> churches belief is that there are many other sentient beings in this
> universe. She tried to explain that there are many beings that have their
> "eyes on us" as it is humanity that has been selected by GOD to have "free
> will" as a test and to represent all sentient life in this Universe etc.
> etc. etc. blah blah blah.....(this is when I really turned off!)

This explanation of your mom's explains some difficult things.  With all the
reports and sightings on file, we seem to be overrun with UFO's and aliens.
It's like we are the center of the universe.  Yet, we have no real contact.
Perhaps the human race is in a boxing ring duking it out, and all these
aliens are spectators who sometimes get too close to the action.

Jeff


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 22 16:24:03 2005
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Subject: Re: NKS 2006 Wolfram Science Conference
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: <R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2005 3:44 AM
Subject: RE: NKS 2006 Wolfram Science Conference


> Mike,
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-modern
>
> (Don't take this badly this is not a personal attack, only observation.)

Remi,
I took a look at the link on 'post-modern' and from my view see a lot of 
garbage created by people with nothing better to do, sterile babble.

Wolfram's work is a hard grind and challenging. 


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 22 18:15:42 2005
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Horace Heffner <hheffner mtaonline.net>
Subject: Beta Aether Involved?
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 17:13:59 -0900
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This post resent as a test of the thread handling of

<http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l%40eskimo.com/>

The AIP article below notes an unexpected collimated behavior of sand  
even in a vacuum.  It says the anomalous "thinner spiky jet" remains  
even in a vacuum.  The "lower, thicker jet" is accounted for by sand- 
air interaction, but no reason for the spiky jet effects remaining in  
a vacuum are given.  Beta Aether Involved?

Begin Quote:
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
PHYSICS NEWS  
UPDATE                                                     	
The American Institute of Physics Bulletin of Physics News
Number 759   December 22, 2005  by Phillip F. Schewe, Ben Stein

FAST X-RAY PICTURES OF SAND JETS.  Granular materials---possessing
both solid-like and liquid-like characteristics---exhibit much
strange emergent behavior even in the simplest of experiments.
When, for example, a heavy sphere is dropped into a bed of sand,
what happens, if you look carefully enough, can still surprise
seasoned researchers.  Heinrich Jaeger of the University of Chicago
and his colleagues watched the jets kicked up by the sphere: they
used high speed video and ordinary light to view the outside of the
jets and high-speed radiography (the x rays supplied by the Advanced
Photon Source at Argonne) of the jet interior.  The impact kicked up
a bizarre two-tiered jet structure: a thick shaft at the bottom and,
projecting up out of the top, a further and thinner shaft (see
figures at http://jfi.uchicago.edu/~jaeger/group/granular.html ).
That the jets are so well collimated is a surprise: why doesn't the
sand just fly out at all angles?  In moving up in a sort of directed
beam, with very little lateral motion, it seems to act like an
ultracold gas (at least in the sideways direction).  Another
surprise is the twofold jet structure.  The lower, thicker jet is
surely sculpted by collisions between sand grains and air molecules
since it gets progressively scantier until, at pressures close to
vacuum, it goes away altogether, leaving only the thinner spiky
jet.  The jet interior pictures are unprecedented: taken with an
exposure rate of 5000 frames per second, the x ray flux provided the
equivalent of a 50-watt halogen lamp illumination---only at x-ray
wavelengths.  The x-ray pictures proved that air squeezed among the
grains was the driving force in forcing up the thick stage of the
jet formation, and not as one might have expected a force for
dissipating the jet.  (Royer et al., Nature Physics, December 2005;
by the way, Nature Physics is a new journal that began publication
in October 2005.)
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
End quote of AIP article.

Horace Heffner




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Horace Heffner wrote:
> This post resent as a test of the thread handling of
> 
> <http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l%40eskimo.com/>
> 
> The AIP article below notes an unexpected collimated behavior of sand  
> even in a vacuum.  It says the anomalous "thinner spiky jet" remains  
> even in a vacuum.  The "lower, thicker jet" is accounted for by sand- 
> air interaction, but no reason for the spiky jet effects remaining in  a 
> vacuum are given.  Beta Aether Involved?

Speaking from a near total ignorance of the subject of behavior of 
near-fluids, couple with a total ignorance of fluid dynamics theory in 
general (beyond a general impression that simulating it involves finite 
element analysis, particle-in-cell, and exotic programs with names like 
ALE and Miranda), my first thought was "Was the sand _charged_?"

Supposing the sand grains picked up a static charge, and supposing 
furthermore than the charges weren't distributed evenly on each grain 
(so that each grain had a nonzero dipole moment), could that account for 
any part of the behavior seen?


> 
> Begin Quote:
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> PHYSICS NEWS  
> UPDATE                                                        
> The American Institute of Physics Bulletin of Physics News
> Number 759   December 22, 2005  by Phillip F. Schewe, Ben Stein
> 
> FAST X-RAY PICTURES OF SAND JETS.  Granular materials---possessing
> both solid-like and liquid-like characteristics---exhibit much
> strange emergent behavior even in the simplest of experiments.
> When, for example, a heavy sphere is dropped into a bed of sand,
> what happens, if you look carefully enough, can still surprise
> seasoned researchers.  Heinrich Jaeger of the University of Chicago
> and his colleagues watched the jets kicked up by the sphere: they
> used high speed video and ordinary light to view the outside of the
> jets and high-speed radiography (the x rays supplied by the Advanced
> Photon Source at Argonne) of the jet interior.  The impact kicked up
> a bizarre two-tiered jet structure: a thick shaft at the bottom and,
> projecting up out of the top, a further and thinner shaft (see
> figures at http://jfi.uchicago.edu/~jaeger/group/granular.html ).
> That the jets are so well collimated is a surprise: why doesn't the
> sand just fly out at all angles?  In moving up in a sort of directed
> beam, with very little lateral motion, it seems to act like an
> ultracold gas (at least in the sideways direction).  Another
> surprise is the twofold jet structure.  The lower, thicker jet is
> surely sculpted by collisions between sand grains and air molecules
> since it gets progressively scantier until, at pressures close to
> vacuum, it goes away altogether, leaving only the thinner spiky
> jet.  The jet interior pictures are unprecedented: taken with an
> exposure rate of 5000 frames per second, the x ray flux provided the
> equivalent of a 50-watt halogen lamp illumination---only at x-ray
> wavelengths.  The x-ray pictures proved that air squeezed among the
> grains was the driving force in forcing up the thick stage of the
> jet formation, and not as one might have expected a force for
> dissipating the jet.  (Royer et al., Nature Physics, December 2005;
> by the way, Nature Physics is a new journal that began publication
> in October 2005.)
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> End quote of AIP article.
> 
> Horace Heffner
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

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A couple items on the list caught my eye.

Jed Rothwell wrote:
> Notes from the 12th International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear 
> Sciences
> 
> November 27 – December 2, 2005, Yokohama
> 
> T. J. Dolan
> 
> 
> The following brief summary refers to only some of the 60 papers 
> presented at the conference.
> 
> 
> Experiments
> 
> 
> Yasuhiro Iwamura (Mitsubishi Heavy Industries) presented more data on 
> transmutations of Cs to Pm, Ba to Sm, and Sr to Mo, using a variety of 
> diagnostic techniques, including a detailed surface mapping using a 
> synchrotron microbeam (100 x 100 micrometers). They found that the 
> transmutations occurred in small concentrated sites on the surface. 
> Afterward I asked him what labs have reproduced some of his 
> transmutations, and he said Osaka University, Shizuoka University, 
> Francesco Celani (Italy), and NRL (in progress).
> 
> A. Kitamura (Kobe University) coated films on the vacuum side of the Pd 
> foil (Iwamura coated the gas side) and reported transmutation of Sr into 
> Mo.
> 
> Irina Savvatimova (“Luch” Institute, Moscow) reported transmutation of 
> Ba into Sm.
> 
> A. El-Boher (Energetics Technologies, Israel) used "superwave" 
> modulation of the current in electrolysis cells to increase yield. He 
> achieved 600% excess heat for 24 hours, and 150% for 134 hours.  Irving 
> Dardik (a physician) developed the superwave technique with regard to 
> curing human illnesses, and it is found to have applications in several 
> fields.

The numbers on this one sound fabulous: 600% excess heat sounds 
stunning.  Is this paper online?  I didn't see it in the index, though 
there appears to be other "superwave" stuff from El-Boher on your site 
going back at least to ICCF-10.

Anyone got any idea where "breakeven" is for a "typical" cold fusion 
cell?  (Yes, I know, they're all different, there is no "typical" 
cell...)  At what level of excess heat is total energy in likely to be 
less than recoverable energy out?  (For that matter, what's the right 
way to even ask the question?  It's pretty obvious what "breakeven" is 
for hot fusion, but for CF it seems a bit less clear.)

In other words, is 600% excess heat anywhere near "breakeven"?


> Vittorio Violante (ENEA, Italy) used a HeNe laser to enhance excess 
> power generation during electrochemical loading.
> 
> Yoshiaki Arata (Osaka University) observed intense heat generation 
> during ingress of deuterium into a thin cylinder containing Pd 
> nanoparticles.
> 
> Alexander Karabut ("Luch" laboratory, Russia) observed excess heat 
> generation and transmutations during deuterium glow discharges, but not 
> during Kr or Xe discharges. Using spark mass spectrometry, SIMS, and 
> secondary neutral mass spectrometry they identified the emergence of 
> many impurities, including abnormal isotope ratios for several elements. 
> They also observed emission of gamma rays and x-rays.
> 
> Andrei Lipson and George Miley (Lebedev Institute, Moscow, and 
> University of Illinois) reported emissions of energetic protons and 
> alpha particles during controlled exothermic deuterium desorption from 
> the surface of a Pd/PdO:Dx heterostructure.  Using CR-39 detectors they 
> found 1-3 MeV proton tracks and 11-16 MeV alpha tracks, with a yield 
> about 0.005 alphas/cm2-s, reproducible during about 20 experiments. They 
> also reported data indicating superconductivity in Pd hydride and 
> deuteride.

This appears to be a PowerPoint slide set.  Is there a paper to go with it?

The slides are fascinating, though, sad to say, mostly pretty 
incomprehensible to this yokel.  I had no idea that signs of 
superconductivity had been observed in loaded Pd, but it appears from 
your index that there are hints of this going back to at least ICCF-10.

Might it be possible to parley this aspect into back-door access to 
"conventional money" for research into CF, I wonder?  30K for a 
transition temperature isn't exactly sweltering, but it still qualifies 
as HT and it's totally different from "conventional HT superconductors", 
I think, and that should interest people.

For that matter, is that possibly what Lipson and Miley are already 
doing...?

[ snip snip ]

> Summary
> 
> 
> In his summary of the ICCF-12 conference Prof. Xing-Zhong Li said that 
> CMNS has three “legs”:
> ·        excess heat generation
> ·        nuclear reaction products & transmutations
> ·        good reproducibility.
> Many experiments have achieved the first two legs, but reproducibility 
> has only been demonstrated in a few experiments, such as those of 
> Iwamura.  Prof. Arata is building a larger device (3 x 30 cm) to 
> demonstrate reliable higher power operation.

That will be really interesting!  I have no idea if using Pd as a sort 
of catalyst for high-temp D2 gas will every produce useful energy, but 
the tiny amounts I've read about it make it sound like the process may 
be a lot more reproducible than the wet-cell CF.

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Jed man, you come out with both fists flying and all brain cells firing!

I encourage all Vortexians to watch that page and help defend (if 
neccessary) what Jed just posted. It is a major step in the right direction.

Hey Jed, I just though of something....the gremlins like to call in a 
parlamentarian type rule sometimes to disqualify evidence that they don't 
like. The rule, if you look it up, as you may know it, goes something like 
"You can't cite yourself, or your own work, or web site" for references on 
Wikipedia.

So....if any of those boys try to pull that one on you.....let me know, 
I'll post the paper on NET.... I don't think they have a rule about citing 
things on friends' Web sites.

S


At 05:26 PM 12/22/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>This should rile the bastards. Maybe even make them think. See:
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_fusion#Reproducibility_of_excess_heat
>
>- Jed
>
>

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Subject: Re: Tandem-LENR: was- paper by Iyengar
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On Dec 22, 2005, at 10:16 AM, Frederick Sparber wrote:

> As an aside.
>
> What would be wrong with applying a high electrostatic field
> across a D-loaded Pd  foil?
> This should unbalance the internal charges in the interstices
> enough to let the Pd charge push the deuterons over the
> repulsive D-D coulomb barrier. No?
>
> Then take what you can get CF-wise.
>
> Fred

I think this was the idea behind the Szpak cell.  I had some  
suggestions along that line in the "Variation on Szpak cell" thread  
in Nov. 2004.

Fig. 3 below is my suggested modified version of  Fig. 1 in the Szpak  
paper at:

<http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/SzpakSprecursors.pdf>

The electrolysis anode is a platinum screen with a hole cut in its  
center to accomodate the cathode.  The cathode is in effect the edge  
of Szpak's cathode.


        Electrolysis
         potential            Ground
             (+)                (-)
              I                  I
         -----I------------------I-----
         |    I                  I    |
   (++)  |    I                  I    |    Key:
     c   |    #                  I    |
     c   |    #                  I    |       I - Electrolysis power  
wire
     c   |    #                  I    |       # - Platinum screen anode
     c   |    #                  I    |       g - Gold foil
     c   |    #                  I    |       s - Piezo substrate
     c   |                       I    |       p - Deposited Pd
     c   |     ggg               I    |      -| - Clear plastic cell  
wall
     c   |    pgsgIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII    |       c - Copper foil HV  
electrode
     c   |    pgs                     |
     c   |    pgs                     |
     c   |    pgs                     |
     c   |    pgs                     |
     c   |    pgsg                    |
     c   |     ggg                    |
     c   |                            |
     c   |    #                       |
     c   |    #                       |
     c   |    #                       |
     c   |    #                       |
     c   |    #                       |
     c   |                            |
     c   ------------------------------
     c
     c
     c
     c  Foil 1


        Fig. 3 - Diagram of variation on Szpak's cell


Note that ascii figure viewing requires use of a fixed font, like  
Courier, and Microsoft Outlook users may need to select "fixed" in  
the "textsize" submenu of the "view" menu.

The intent of this configuration is to maximize the imposed  
electrostatic field imposed perpendicular to the surface of the  
cathode.  I suggested earlier that this might increase the electron  
density at the surface of the cathode.  After seeing the  
configuration in Fig. 3 it is fairly clear that the vast amount of  
the potential drop should be across the plastic surface of the cell.   
Still, the E field is present at the interface, countered by ion  
redistribution and polarized molecule orientation.  Within the  
cathode the electron distribution should be skewed toward the active  
surface.  There may be unexpected results similar to what Szpak  
obtained.

Horace Heffner

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Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 00:33:02 -0500
From: Harry Veeder <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: Concerning Reality in an Arbitrary Universe
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Zell, Chris wrote:

> Does it ever seem that, although the Newtonian view
> of a mechanical universe is obsolete, we are still struggling to
> maintain
> a mechanical viewpoint, while nature keeps slipping effects between the
> moving gears, somehow?

Yes, and what is both good and bad about quantum mechanics is that it allows
us to prolong the struggle indefinitely.

Harry


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From: Horace Heffner <hheffner mtaonline.net>
Subject: Re: Tandem-LENR: was- paper by Iyengar
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 22:09:53 -0900
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On Dec 22, 2005, at 8:34 AM, Jones Beene wrote:

> Bottom line: ...isn't it a bit too coincidental that in carefully  
> documented experiments, you can come out to nearly "net neutral" on  
> the energy equation yet - still have lots of tritium? ... what  
> happend to the excess heat ?

Electron catalysis might explain that - given an assumption or two.  
When two deuterons collide and fuse in hot fusion, it takes a lot of  
energy.  The resulting nucleus has a lot of pent up potential energy,  
which ends up released in the form of decay particle energy, or gammas.

If the waveforms of two deuterons tunnel to the locus of an electron,  
i.e. the quantum waveforms of two deuterons and a centrally located  
electron collapse at the locus of the electron center of charge, then  
the resulting nucleus is not energetic.  This concept was more fully  
described here in 2001. See <http://mtaonline.net/~hheffner/ 
EcatFusion.pdf>.

Now, supposing T is the final result of the fusion, and no neutron.   
We then have:

    D + D + e-  --->  He*  --->  T + P + 2 e-

where here He* here is not really helium at all, and certainly not an  
energetic isomer.  Within He*, to produce this reaction, there is an  
accelerated decay of a neutron, producing a P and e- which have to  
leave the nucleus, and some nominal energy.  The work to eject the P  
and e- is a wash.  The work to eject the second electron, the  
catalytic electron, further de-energizes the nucleus.  There will be  
no energetic gamma.  Additionally, the ejection of P + 2 e- could be  
expected to produce EM radiation, and not all in one high energy  
photon, but rather in smaller chunks.  The only signatures of this  
reaction are thus low order heat and tritium.  That's my guess.

Horace Heffner

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Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 02:36:33 -0500
From: Harry Veeder <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: Physics Today article
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(free article from Physics Today)

Albert Einstein as a Philosopher of Science

Einstein's philosophical habit of mind, cultivated by undergraduate training
and lifelong dialogue, had a profound effect on the way he did physics.

Don A. Howard


Nowadays, explicit engagement with the philosophy of science plays almost no
role in the training of physicists or in physics research. What little the
student learns about philosophical issues is typically learned casually, by
a kind of intellectual osmosis. One picks up ideas and opinions in the
lecture hall, in the laboratory, and in collaboration with one's supervisor.
Careful reflection on philosophical ideas is rare. Even rarer is systematic
instruction. Worse still, publicly indulging an interest in philosophy of
science is often treated as a social blunder. To be fair, more than a few
physicists do think philosophically. Still, explicitly philosophical
approaches to physics are the exception. Things were not always so...

http://www.physicstoday.org/vol-58/iss-12/p34.html

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At 02:11 pm 22/12/2005 -0500, you wrote:


>Amazin' that you Brits were able to avoid genetic degeneration what 
>living on an island and all.


It may be an island but the influx of visitors 
(Romans, Vikings, French, refugees, West Indians, 
Indians, Africans, etc. etc. has kept Brits very diverse.

As an example, my mother was Belgian, her father 
French, her mother Dutch my father's mother half 
Italian, which makes me more European than English.

As for my children-in-law, they include, Spanish, 
Italian, Russian and Chinese.

I should think that Smallville USA has more danger 
of inbreeding than Metropolitan UK.  8-)

Frank







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Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 09:05:13 +0000
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From: Grimer <f.grimer grimer2.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Beta Aether Involved?
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At 12:31 pm 22/12/2005 -0900, Horace wrote:


>The AIP article below notes an unexpected collimated behavior of sand  
>even in a vacuum.  It says the anomalous "thinner spiky jet" remains  
>even in a vacuum.  The "lower, thicker jet" is accounted for by sand- 
>air interaction, but no reason for the spiky jet effects remaining in  
>a vacuum are given.  Beta Aether Involved?
>
> Begin Quote:
>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>PHYSICS NEWS  
>UPDATE                                                     	
>The American Institute of Physics Bulletin of Physics News
>Number 759   December 22, 2005  by Phillip F. Schewe, Ben Stein
>
>FAST X-RAY PICTURES OF SAND JETS.  Granular materials---possessing
>both solid-like and liquid-like characteristics---exhibit much
>strange emergent behavior even in the simplest of experiments.
>When, for example,...
                ....(Royer et al., Nature Physics, December 2005;
>by the way, Nature Physics is a new journal that began publication
>in October 2005.)
>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>End quote of AIP article.
>
>Horace Heffner


Very interesting Horace.
Is Beta-atmosphere involved? 
I wouldn't be at all surprised.

No doubt, once the existence of B-a is 
recognised all sorts of anomalies will 
fall into their proper place - like the 
following for instance.


=============================================
 Consider the following diagrams for the 
 refraction of sound and light.
 
 Sound travels faster in "dense" mediums and 
 it is refracted away from the normal when 
 it enters a "denser" medium like glass, for 
 instance.
 

...----------------------------------------
.. . . . . . . . . . . .!. . . . . . .o. . 
. .SOUND REFRACTION . . ! . . . . . o . . .
.. . . . . . . . . . . .!. . . . .o. . . . 
. .Tenuous medium . . . ! . . . o . . . . .
.. . . . . . . . . . . .!. . .o. . . . . . 
. . . . . . . . . . . .!. . o . . . . . . .
.. . . . . . . . . . . .!.o. . . . . . . . 
...========================================
......................o.!..................
..................o.....!..................
..............o.........!...Dense medium...
..........o.............!..................
......o.................!..................
...o....................!..................
...----------------------------------------



 On the other hand Light travels slower in 
 "dense" mediums and it is refracted towards 
 the normal when it enters a "denser" medium 
 like glass. 
 
...----------------------------------------
.. . . . . . . . . . . .!. . . . . . .*. . 
. .LIGHT REFRACTION . . ! . . . . . * . . .
.. . . . . . . . . . . .!. . . . .*. . . . 
. .Tenuous medium . . . ! . . . * . . . . .
.. . . . . . . . . . . .!. . .*. . . . . . 
. . . . . . . . . . . .!. . * . . . . . . .
.. . . . . . . . . . . .!.*. . . . . . . . 
...========================================
.......................*!..................
......................*.!..................
.....................*..!...Dense medium...
....................*...!..................
...................*....!..................
..................*.....!..................
----------------------------------------
 
 
 So their behaviour is apparently the 
 complete opposite of each other.
 
 But is it really? 
 
 Really and truly? <g>
 
 The sound ray is carried by the SOLID PHASE 
 which I have represented by lower case 'o' 
 atoms.
 
 But the light ray is carried by the FLUID 
 PHASE which I have represented by asterisk 
 stars.
 
 Now the Fluid Phase is the internal Beta-
 atmosphere which is at a lower pressure 
 and lower substance/unit volume than the 
 external Beta-atmosphere. This pressure 
 difference is what holds the glass together 
 and gives it its strength.
 
 At the apparent mass, m, scale the glass 
 is more substantial than its environment. 
 But at the true mass, M, scale the glass 
 is less substantial than its environment.
 
 So you can see [hopefully ;-) ] that in 
 terms of the carriers both sound and light 
 are behaving in the same way. One is simply 
 a negative image of the other. 
 
 We have indeed got things inside out.
 
 I now know how that lawyer, Secondo Pia, 
 felt when he ...
 
 Cheers,
 
 Frank Grimer
 
      ===================================
      In principio erat Verbum ...
      et vita erat lux hominum 
      et lux in tenebris lucet 
      et tenebrae eam non conprehenderunt 
      ===================================

ADDENDUM

 Since I have now represented concentration of 
 stuff will full stops, I may as well draw the 
 light refraction diagram with respect to 
 Beta-atmosphere pressure (see below). 

 As you can see, the Beta-atmosphere is more
 concentrated outside the glass than within
 the glass. 

...----------------------------------------
........................!.............*....
...LIGHT REFRACTION.....!...........*......
........................!.........*........
...Ambient..............!.......*..........
...Beta-atmosphere......!.....*............
...pressure.............!...*..............
........................!.*................
...========================================
.. . . . . . . . . . . *!. . . . . . . . . 
. . . . . . . . . . . *.! . . . . . . . . .
.. . . . . . . . . . *. !.Reduced. . . . . 
. . . . . . . . ....*. .!.Beta-atmosphere .
.. . . . . . . . . *. . !.pressure . . . . 
. . . . . . . . . *. . .! . . . . . . . . .
...----------------------------------------

 Thus refraction behaviour is the same for 
 sound and light providing account is taken 
 of the carrier medium.
 
 
 

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http://www.idiom.com/~lexmark/pogopix/Pogo-W4.jpg

http://www.kls2.com/government/legislation.html

http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/~ek867/pogo.gif

http://www.ampersandcom.com/ampersandcommunications/pogogoesfrompottopetasaw2.htm




Christmas Tree Opossum Surprises Pa. Teen
>From Associated Press
December 22, 2005 10:23 PM EST 
ENGLEWOOD, Pa. - Mary Kathleen O'Connor, 16, doing some studying for school about 6 a.m. Tuesday, said she was the first to be startled by an apparent Christmas tree stowaway.
"I'm looking at the tree and the angel just pops off," she said. "And a second later, this head just popped up. The eyes were, like, glowing. I was thinking, 'Oh my God!' And I screamed."
Other family members came running. "We looked at it and I thought it might have been a fake," said her father, Michael O'Connor, a Frackville attorney. "But then it moved its head. And I thought 'Holy Jeez. We're in trouble.'"
O'Connor called police, and William E. O'Donnell, a state Game Commission deputy wildlife conservation officer, removed an 18-inch-long opossum from the 8-foot Douglas fir the family had bought, bundled, from a dealer in Seltzer.
O'Donnell caged the animal and released it in woods about five miles away. The tree, meanwhile, was still in the front yard where Patricia had hurled it. "The lights are still on it," Michael O'Connor said. "So is the stand."
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8
Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

<HTML style="FONT-SIZE: x-small; FONT-FAMILY: MS Sans Serif"><HEAD>
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2802" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT size=2><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>
<DIV class=newsTitle><A href="http://www.idiom.com/~lexmark/pogopix/Pogo-W4.jpg">http://www.idiom.com/~lexmark/pogopix/Pogo-W4.jpg</A></DIV>
<DIV class=newsTitle>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV class=newsTitle><A href="http://www.kls2.com/government/legislation.html">http://www.kls2.com/government/legislation.html</A></DIV>
<DIV class=newsTitle>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV class=newsTitle><A href="http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/~ek867/pogo.gif">http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/~ek867/pogo.gif</A></DIV>
<DIV class=newsTitle>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV class=newsTitle><A href="http://www.ampersandcom.com/ampersandcommunications/pogogoesfrompottopetasaw2.htm">http://www.ampersandcom.com/ampersandcommunications/pogogoesfrompottopetasaw2.htm</A></DIV>
<DIV class=newsTitle><A href="http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/~ek867/pogo.gif"></A>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV class=newsTitle>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV class=newsTitle>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV class=newsTitle>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV class=newsTitle>Christmas Tree Opossum Surprises Pa. Teen</DIV>
<DIV class=newsPubDate style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px">
<DIV class=newsAuthor></DIV>
<DIV class=newsProvider>From Associated Press</DIV>December 22, 2005 10:23 PM EST </DIV>
<DIV class=newsBreakingHeadline>
<P>ENGLEWOOD, Pa. - Mary Kathleen O'Connor, 16, doing some studying for school about 6 a.m. Tuesday, said she was the first to be startled by an apparent Christmas tree stowaway.</P>
<P>"I'm looking at the tree and the angel just pops off," she said. "And a second later, this head just popped up. The eyes were, like, glowing. I was thinking, 'Oh my God!' And I screamed."</P>
<P>Other family members came running. "We looked at it and I thought it might have been a fake," said her father, Michael O'Connor, a Frackville attorney. "But then it moved its head. And I thought 'Holy Jeez. We're in trouble.'"</P>
<P>O'Connor called police, and William E. O'Donnell, a state Game Commission deputy wildlife conservation officer, removed an 18-inch-long opossum from the 8-foot Douglas fir the family had bought, bundled, from a dealer in Seltzer.</P>
<P>O'Donnell caged the animal and released it in woods about five miles away. The tree, meanwhile, was still in the front yard where Patricia had hurled it. "The lights are still on it," Michael O'Connor said. "So is the stand."</P></DIV></FONT></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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I like it.   :-) 

http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/~ek867/pogo.gif
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<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>I like it.&nbsp;&nbsp; :-) </FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2><A href="http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/~ek867/pogo.gif">http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/~ek867/pogo.gif</A></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 23 06:08:49 2005
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Vortexians;

>
>Also... whenever electrochemistry is concerned, I always wonder if
>hyperthermophilic nanobacteria have involved themselves.  They specialize

If nanobacteria are doing the reaction, why is electricity required?

According to Reich, nanobacteria, or something similar, can be 
produced by placing beach sand, previously heated to incandescence on 
sterile growth medium, in a orgone accumulator. Perhaps this strategy 
might be useful in inducing LENRs. It is reported that when he 
followed the above scenario, it gave him a tan with his clothes on, 
IMHO, that's a scarry thought.


--- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 23 07:11:06 2005
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> From: Grimer 

> >Amazin' that you Brits were able to avoid genetic 
degeneration
> > what living on an island and all.
> 
> 
> It may be an island but the influx of visitors 
> (Romans, Vikings, French, refugees, West Indians, 
> Indians, Africans, etc. etc. has kept Brits very diverse.

Don't forget the Klingons. I think they are still there too.

...

> 
> I should think that Smallville USA has more danger 
> of inbreeding than Metropolitan UK.  8-)
> 
> Frank
> 

There is a wonderful gem of an essay written by a science fiction novelist Larry Niven. The title of the piece, if memory serves me correctly is "Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenix." It's a hilarious essay on what would REALLY happen if Superman were to make love to Lois Lane. It is both graphic and scientifically accurate.

Enjoy.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

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From: "Frederick Sparber"

Great levity!

> Christmas Tree Opossum Surprises Pa. Teen

...

> ENGLEWOOD, Pa. - Mary Kathleen O'Connor, 16, doing some 
> studying for school about 6 a.m. Tuesday, said she was the 
> first to be startled by an apparent Christmas tree stowaway.
>
> "I'm looking at the tree and the angel just pops off," 
> she said. "And a second later, this head just popped up. The 
> eyes were, like, glowing. I was thinking, 'Oh my God!' And
> I screamed." 
>
> Other family members came running. "We looked
> at it and I thought it might have been a fake," said her
> father, Michael O'Connor, a Frackville attorney. "But then
> it moved its head. And I thought 'Holy Jeez. We're in trouble.'"
>
> O'Connor called police, and William E. O'Donnell, a state Game
> Commission deputy wildlife conservation officer, removed an 
> 18-inch-long opossum from the 8-foot Douglas fir the family
> had bought, bundled, from a dealer in Seltzer.
>
> O'Donnell caged the animal and released it in woods about 
>five miles away. The tree, meanwhile, was still in the front
> yard where Patricia had hurled it. "The lights are still on it,"
> Michael O'Connor said. "So is the stand."
>


Ten minutes after I had positioned the family Christmas tree in the living room we noticed a strange shutter emanate from within the branches. Upon further investigation we discovered that our ten month old kitten Zoey had decided that the tree was an important piece of real estate worth exploring. There I was staring back at too beady eyes that were staring back at me. I extracted her...and then, upon reflection of the matter had wished I had retrieved my digital camera to document her little adventure. Dang! Unfortuantely, Zoey has shown no further interest in playing a Christmas tree ornament. I think it was the pitch on her paws that she spent 30 minutes trying to lick off. I suspect her tongue was not in the greatest shape either.

The holiday odyssey continues.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 23 07:39:09 2005
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Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 07:38:37 -0800 (PST)
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Tandem-LENR: was- paper by Iyengar
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--- Horace Heffner <hheffner mtaonline.net> wrote:

> If the waveforms of two deuterons tunnel to the
> locus of an electron, 

There seems to be a problem with the Pauli exclusion
principle here. Two deuterons could tunnel into the
same waveform, perhaps even at several hundred degrees
K within the confinement of a metal matrix - but not
at the locus of a fermion... or at least that is my
interpretation of Pauli. Are you saying there is
evidence elsewhere for this tunneling of bosons into a
fermion waveform? 

Jones 


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 23 07:42:51 2005
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Isn't it?

And, A Possum In A Pine Tree.... 

My true love gave to me. :-)

Fred


> [Original Message]
> From: OrionWorks <orionworks charter.net>
> To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> Cc: <orionworks charter.net>
> Date: 12/23/2005 8:26:31 AM
> Subject: Re: O.T. Pogo Gets Booted?
>
> From: "Frederick Sparber"
>
> Great levity!
>
> > Christmas Tree Opossum Surprises Pa. Teen
>
> ...
>
> > ENGLEWOOD, Pa. - Mary Kathleen O'Connor, 16, doing some 
> > studying for school about 6 a.m. Tuesday, said she was the 
> > first to be startled by an apparent Christmas tree stowaway.
> >
> > "I'm looking at the tree and the angel just pops off," 
> > she said. "And a second later, this head just popped up. The 
> > eyes were, like, glowing. I was thinking, 'Oh my God!' And
> > I screamed." 
> >
> > Other family members came running. "We looked
> > at it and I thought it might have been a fake," said her
> > father, Michael O'Connor, a Frackville attorney. "But then
> > it moved its head. And I thought 'Holy Jeez. We're in trouble.'"
> >
> > O'Connor called police, and William E. O'Donnell, a state Game
> > Commission deputy wildlife conservation officer, removed an 
> > 18-inch-long opossum from the 8-foot Douglas fir the family
> > had bought, bundled, from a dealer in Seltzer.
> >
> > O'Donnell caged the animal and released it in woods about 
> >five miles away. The tree, meanwhile, was still in the front
> > yard where Patricia had hurled it. "The lights are still on it,"
> > Michael O'Connor said. "So is the stand."
> >
>
>
> Ten minutes after I had positioned the family Christmas tree in the
living room we noticed a strange shutter emanate from within the branches.
Upon further investigation we discovered that our ten month old kitten Zoey
had decided that the tree was an important piece of real estate worth
exploring. There I was staring back at too beady eyes that were staring
back at me. I extracted her...and then, upon reflection of the matter had
wished I had retrieved my digital camera to document her little adventure.
Dang! Unfortuantely, Zoey has shown no further interest in playing a
Christmas tree ornament. I think it was the pitch on her paws that she
spent 30 minutes trying to lick off. I suspect her tongue was not in the
greatest shape either.
>
> The holiday odyssey continues.
>
> Regards,
> Steven Vincent Johnson
> www.OrionWorks.com



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 23 08:18:28 2005
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Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 16:17:47 +0000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Grimer <f.grimer grimer2.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: NKS 2006 Wolfram Science Conference
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At 09:10 am 23/12/2005 -0600, you wrote:
>> From: Grimer 
>
>> >Amazin' that you Brits were able to avoid genetic 
>degeneration
>> > what living on an island and all.
>> 
>> 
>> It may be an island but the influx of visitors 
>> (Romans, Vikings, French, refugees, West Indians, 
>> Indians, Africans, etc. etc. has kept Brits very diverse.
>
>Don't forget the Klingons. I think they are still there too.
>
>...
>


Unfortunately, or perhaps fortunately, my childhood was 
spent in the years B.T. (Before Tele) and so I am 
blissfully unaware of things like Klingons.

As for Kleenex, we didn't even have bog rolls during the war. 
I remember many an afternoon spent tearing up newspaper into 
appropriate sized pieces to fit the Kudos soap flakes box.
The Daily Express was best. The Times was a bit too harsh
on delicate skin. <g>

Instead of TV we had comics, such as the Wizard, Hotspur and
Adventure. Posher boys than me read the Boys Own Paper - but
that was rather boring by the 1940s. I must admit I did enjoy
some of the older BOP Annuals though - encyclopaedic sized 
volumes that one could buy in second hand book shops.

As for Superman, that was only seen on the very rare occasions
that my Pilot Officer brother brought home one of those
voluminous American publications - The huge contrast with our 
single sheet press was a grim reminder of just how poor Britain 
had become in the defence of freedom. (# sound of violins #)

Frank


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 23 09:12:08 2005
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Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 12:11:39 -0500
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Christmas present from M. Srinivasan
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Some additional info, which I just added to the page:

The Polaroid film itself is 12 cm x 9 cm. The disk image is 6.7 cm in 
diameter. The two images are 200 dpi and 300 dpi, as indicated by the 
filenames:

Autoradiograph200dpi.jpg
Autoradiograph300dpi.jpg


I have a 1200 dpi scan, if anyone would like to see it. Suitable for framing.

I have to return the original to Srinivasan.

- Jed


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BlankGrimer wrote..
> At the apparent mass, m, scale the glass=20
 is more substantial than its environment.=20
 But at the true mass, M, scale the glass=20
 is less substantial than its environment.
=20
 So you can see [hopefully ;-) ] that in=20
 terms of the carriers both sound and light=20
 are behaving in the same way. One is simply=20
 a negative image of the other.=20
=20
 We have indeed got things inside out.


Hi Frank, indeed so! The use of glass as an example is insightful, given =
its unique additional physical properties including fluid "flow" =
characteristics.

 Once I wrote a mind teaser on Vorts regarding a proposed experiment =
using perforated silvered sceen material to reflect an image upon. =
Positioning the  screen opposite a mirrror with a projector focused on =
the face of the screen ,which would in turn reflect upon the opposite =
mirror, and by the perforations, be seen in reverse image on the back =
side of screen. This reverse image in turn would reflect upon another =
mirror positioned opposite the back side of the screen. The mirror =
behind the screen would be positioned to reflect across to the primary =
mirror and visa-verse. The cascading images would be projected by =
reflection into infinity and reverse. The measured differential should =
be indicative of  a function of Beta Aether. Fun stuff.

Richard=20

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<BODY id=3DridBody bgColor=3D#ffffff=20
background=3Dcid:000701c607ec$7328ae40$9a027841 xptower>
<DIV>Grimer wrote..</DIV>
<P>&gt;&nbsp;At the apparent mass, m, scale the glass <BR>&nbsp;is more=20
substantial than its environment. <BR>&nbsp;But at the true mass, M, =
scale the=20
glass <BR>&nbsp;is less substantial than its =
environment.<BR>&nbsp;<BR>&nbsp;So=20
you can see [hopefully ;-) ] that in <BR>&nbsp;terms of the carriers =
both sound=20
and light <BR>&nbsp;are behaving in the same way. One is simply =
<BR>&nbsp;a=20
negative image of the other. <BR>&nbsp;<BR>&nbsp;We have indeed got =
things=20
inside out.<BR></P>
<P>Hi Frank, indeed so! The use of glass as an example is insightful, =
given its=20
unique additional physical properties including&nbsp;fluid "flow"=20
characteristics.</P>
<P>&nbsp;Once I wrote a mind teaser on Vorts regarding a=20
proposed&nbsp;experiment using perforated silvered sceen material to =
reflect an=20
image upon. Positioning&nbsp;the &nbsp;screen opposite a mirrror with a=20
projector focused on the face of&nbsp;the screen ,which would in turn =
reflect=20
upon the opposite&nbsp;mirror, and by the perforations, be seen in =
reverse image=20
on the back side of screen. This reverse image in turn would reflect =
upon=20
another mirror positioned opposite the back side of the screen. The =
mirror=20
behind the screen would be positioned to reflect across to the primary =
mirror=20
and visa-verse. The cascading images would be projected by reflection =
into=20
infinity&nbsp;and reverse. The measured differential&nbsp;should be =
indicative=20
of&nbsp;&nbsp;a function of Beta Aether. Fun stuff.</P>
<P>Richard </P></BODY></HTML>

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On Dec 23, 2005, at 6:38 AM, Jones Beene wrote:

>
>
> --- Horace Heffner <hheffner mtaonline.net> wrote:
>
>> If the waveforms of two deuterons tunnel to the
>> locus of an electron,
>
> There seems to be a problem with the Pauli exclusion
> principle here. Two deuterons could tunnel into the
> same waveform, perhaps even at several hundred degrees
> K within the confinement of a metal matrix - but not
> at the locus of a fermion... or at least that is my
> interpretation of Pauli. Are you saying there is
> evidence elsewhere for this tunneling of bosons into a
> fermion waveform?
>
> Jones
>
>
I did say "given an assumption or two"!  8^)

The Pauli exclusion principle only excludes superposition of two  
fermions not having opposed spins, e.g. 3 free electrons.  I think  
there is evidence that a superposition event can occur between two  
fermions that makes them act like a boson.  Examples of this are the  
ability of electrons to build Ken Shoulder's EV's (if they actually  
exist), superconductivity (I suggest the formation of electron pair  
bosons may be an alternative explanation of superconductivity) as  
well as the proven existence of fermion Bose condensates.

The quantum waveform (psi) of any particle extends throughout the  
universe.  The integral of Psi^2 for a volume indicates the  
probability of the particle's location in a given volume in a given  
time. When two or more particles have an "event", creating a new  
particle or particles, the waveforms of the old particles collapse,  
and the new particles waveforms instantly extend throughout the  
universe.  (Yes, this means FTL events can happen.)  If any event can  
happen between any two or more particles, the probability of that  
event in some volume of space is just integral of the overlap of the  
psi^2 value of the waveforms in the volume.  My concept is just that,  
provided a 3rd (catalyst) particle can be involved in an event, its  
being located between two other involved particles  greatly increases  
the probability of the 3 body event over the probability of the two  
body event (excluding the catalyst) at the given distance.  Further,  
the event must be energetically favorable, and having two bodies of  
one charge and one of the other ensures that the event is  
energetically favorable with respect to coulomb charge.  The wave  
function collapse of two deuterons upon a boson consisting of two  
opposed spin electrons would be even more energetically favorable!   
Thus you have the 2 electron catalysis hypothesis.  See <http:// 
mtaonline.net/~hheffner/DualElectronCatFusion.pdf>

I hope I got all that right  8^)

Horace Heffner

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Dec. 23, 2005
Vortex,
MERRY CHRISTMAS and other Holidays of the season to ALL (whatever the
faiths or non faiths)!!
-ak-

> [Original Message]
> From: What's New <whatsnew BOBPARK.ORG>
> To: <BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW LISTSERV.UMD.EDU>
 Date: 12/23/2005 5:53:00 PM
 Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday December 23, 2005

 WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 23 Dec 05   Washington, DC

 1. INTELLIGENT DESIGN: DOVER DECISION DESTINED TO BE BESTSELLER. 
 "Our conclusion today," wrote United States District Judge John
 E. Jones III, "is that it is unconstitutional to teach ID as an
 alternative to evolution in a public school classroom."  You must
 read 137 pages to get to that line, but it's time well spent. 
 Jones, a conservative Republican appointed by George W. Bush,
 reviews the "legal landscape" of church-state separation, and
 then addresses the key question of whether ID is science or
 religion.  He does so, "in the hope that it may prevent the
 obvious waste of resources on subsequent trials."  Science, he
 observes, "rejects appeal to authority in favor of empirical
 evidence," whereas, "ID is not supported by any peer-reviewed
 research, data or publications."  Not only does he enjoin Dover
 schools from teaching ID, he says the parents who brought suit
 are entitled to damages.  That may cool the ardor of other school
 boards thinking of hopping in bed with the Discovery Institute.
 In the Senate, Rick Santorum (R-PA), who had earlier praised the 
 Dover School Board for "teaching the controversy," was so moved
 by the Jones decision that he severed his ties to the Thomas
 Moore Law Center, which had defended the Board.

 2. THIS IS HEAVEN?  YOU MAY WANT TO ASK ABOUT THE ALTERNATIVES. 
 Having just read Judge Jones "passionate paean to science," I
 turned on "Heaven: Where Is It? How Do We Get There," a two-hour
 special on ABC.  The only hard information was that 90 percent of
 the public believes in it, whatever it is.  That's scary, but how
 could ABC spend two hours on something for which there is no
 evidence whatever?  Easy, have Barbara Walters interview experts,
 from mega-church evangelist Ted Haggard, who explains Heaven is
 only for born-again Christians, to a failed suicide bomber in a
 Jerusalem prison who was certain it's only for Muslims.

 3. LOS ALAMOS: LEGENDARY BOMB LAB RETAINS LINK TO U. CALIFORNIA.
 A consortium led by UC and Bechtel won the contract to manage the
 nation's oldest nuclear laboratory.  This was good news for the
 8,000 employees who feared losing job security and pensions under
 new management.  However, Rep. Joe Barton (R-TX), Chair of Energy
 and Commerce, was not happy.  He had favored a consortium that
 included the U. of Texas.  Actually, Barton hasn't been happy
 since Energy cancelled the SSC, which was in his district.

 4. PATRIOT ACT: 2 DAYS BEFORE CHRISTMAS AND ALL THROUGH THE HOUSE 
 The House yesterday insisted on shortening the extension of the
 Patriot Act to five weeks because James Sensenbrenner (R-WI), the
 Judiciary chair, wants it to be permanent.  While you're figuring
 that out, we read in the South Coast Standard-Times that a UMass
 Dartmouth Senior was visited by Homeland Security agents after he
 requested a copy of Mao's "Little Red Book" from the library.  He
 had apparently become one of the 500 people at any one time that
 President Bush has authorized NSA to spy on.  So we now have NSA
 computers sifting through inter-library loans to catch Maoists? 
 Wake up NSA!  http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN05/wn021105.html.

 THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND.
 Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the
 University of Maryland, but they should be.
 ---
 Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.bobpark.org
 What's New is moving to a different listserver and our
 subscription process has changed. To change your subscription
 status please visit this link:
 http://listserv.umd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=bobparks-whatsnew&A=1


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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
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Subject: Re: Notes on ICCF12 from T. J. Dolan
Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 09:09:48 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Stephen A. Lawrence's message of Thu, 22 Dec 2005
22:39:04 -0500:
Hi,
[snip]
>The numbers on this one sound fabulous: 600% excess heat sounds 
>stunning.  Is this paper online?  I didn't see it in the index, though 
>there appears to be other "superwave" stuff from El-Boher on your site 
>going back at least to ICCF-10.
>
>Anyone got any idea where "breakeven" is for a "typical" cold fusion 
>cell?  (Yes, I know, they're all different, there is no "typical" 
>cell...)  At what level of excess heat is total energy in likely to be 
>less than recoverable energy out?  (For that matter, what's the right 
>way to even ask the question?  It's pretty obvious what "breakeven" is 
>for hot fusion, but for CF it seems a bit less clear.)
>
>In other words, is 600% excess heat anywhere near "breakeven"?
[snip]
Clearly it depends on what you want to do, and the output
temperature of the cell. At face value, 600% is clearly way above
break even, however that's electrical energy in and thermal energy
out. A reverse cycle heat exchanger can do nearly this well. If
all you want do is create warm water, then this would probably be
commercial right now. If you want to produce enough electricity to
power the device itself, then you need to look at the Carnot
efficiency of the device (TH-TL)/TH. Having determined the Carnot
efficiency, you probably need to divide this by about a factor of
2 to get somewhere close to real conversion efficiency.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

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Subject: Entergetics Technologies Website
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Does anyone have the the Israeli startup company Entergetics =
Technologies' website? 
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<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New">Does anyone have the&nbsp;the Israeli =
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Vortexians- The evening news on ABC ststed that the clock watchers
            are going to add a leap second to the last second of
             Dec.31,2005 to correct the clocks to the earths rotation.
            It seems that they have had to add 23 seconds since
            1972 to correct clocks. The Earth has been slowing down 
            its rotation speed.
                 The slowing of the earth should increase its 
            temperature I would think (Im possibly wrong.)
            It does seem to coinside with the years of  biggest 
            increase of  temperature. Or as many suspect just a normal
             cycle.
            A cycle we are not aware of.
                             _ges-
                    


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gesrebspar juno.com wrote:
> Vortexians- The evening news on ABC ststed that the clock watchers
>             are going to add a leap second to the last second of
>              Dec.31,2005 to correct the clocks to the earths rotation.
>             It seems that they have had to add 23 seconds since
>             1972 to correct clocks. The Earth has been slowing down 
>             its rotation speed.
>                  The slowing of the earth should increase its 
>             temperature I would think (Im possibly wrong.)
>             It does seem to coinside with the years of  biggest 
>             increase of  temperature. Or as many suspect just a normal
>              cycle.
>             A cycle we are not aware of.
>                              _ges-

My understanding is that the slowing of the Earth is due to tidal forces 
exerted on the Earth by the Moon.

In simple Newtonian terms, the tital bulge of the ocean isn't directly 
under the moon -- it's "dragged" by the rotation of the earth to a 
position a number of degrees off from where you'd expect (high tide 
isn't when the Moon is at the zenith, as you might have expected).  In 
consequence, the shape of the earth "seen" by the Moon's gravitational 
field isn't a sphere, and the Moon's gravity actually exerts a torque on 
the Earth.  In turn, the Earth exerts an off-center force on the Moon, 
which is consequently gradually being "spun up" in its orbit.  The 
Moon's orbit gets bigger, and the Earth slows down simultaneously.

Another way to look at it is that the oceans are dragged around the 
Earth by the tides in the opposite directly from its rotation, and 
friction between the oceans and their beds is gradually slowing down the 
Earth.  It's a little harder to see how energy and angular momentum are 
conserved when viewing it this way, tho.

Either way, this has been going on at roughly the same rate for as long 
as there have been liquid oceans on the Earth.  So, while it's no doubt 
contributing some amount of heat to the Earth, it's not a new effect; 
the current unusual warming of the Earth surely is unrelated to it.

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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" <salaw pobox.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Friday, December 23, 2005 9:53 PM
Subject: Re: Global Warming


>
>
> gesrebspar juno.com wrote:
> > Vortexians- The evening news on ABC ststed that the clock watchers
> >             are going to add a leap second to the last second of
> >              Dec.31,2005 to correct the clocks to the earths rotation.
> >             It seems that they have had to add 23 seconds since
> >             1972 to correct clocks. The Earth has been slowing down
> >             its rotation speed.
> >                  The slowing of the earth should increase its
> >             temperature I would think (Im possibly wrong.)
> >             It does seem to coinside with the years of  biggest
> >             increase of  temperature. Or as many suspect just a normal
> >              cycle.
> >             A cycle we are not aware of.
> >                              _ges-
>
> My understanding is that the slowing of the Earth is due to tidal forces
> exerted on the Earth by the Moon.
>
> In simple Newtonian terms, the tital bulge of the ocean isn't directly
> under the moon -- it's "dragged" by the rotation of the earth to a
> position a number of degrees off from where you'd expect (high tide
> isn't when the Moon is at the zenith, as you might have expected).  In
> consequence, the shape of the earth "seen" by the Moon's gravitational
> field isn't a sphere, and the Moon's gravity actually exerts a torque on
> the Earth.  In turn, the Earth exerts an off-center force on the Moon,
> which is consequently gradually being "spun up" in its orbit.  The
> Moon's orbit gets bigger, and the Earth slows down simultaneously.
>
> Another way to look at it is that the oceans are dragged around the
> Earth by the tides in the opposite directly from its rotation, and
> friction between the oceans and their beds is gradually slowing down the
> Earth.  It's a little harder to see how energy and angular momentum are
> conserved when viewing it this way, tho.
>
> Either way, this has been going on at roughly the same rate for as long
> as there have been liquid oceans on the Earth.  So, while it's no doubt
> contributing some amount of heat to the Earth, it's not a new effect;
> the current unusual warming of the Earth surely is unrelated to it.


As the earth slows down, the daily temerature extremes will get greater
since there will be more time at night for the temp to go low and more time
in the day for it to go high.

It is interesting to extrapolate back in time, the tidal effects on the
earth's rotational speed, and the size of the moon's orbit.  As you
calculate backward, one million, two million, three million years, the earth
is spinning faster and faster, bulging noticebly at the equator (oblate
spheroid).  The moon is significantly closer, raising the tidal drag to
levels much higher than they are now.  At some point in the past you reach
the viability limit of the earth/moon planetary sub system where the earth
is ready to fly apart due to centrifugal forces and the moon's close
proximity is causing additional devastation resulting in a tremendous energy
transfer rate between the two bodies.  I havn't seen these calculations
worked out in any detail, but I think this phenomena imposes an age limit of
this system that is much younger than some evolutionary scientists would
like it to be.

Here is another peculiar thing that is hard to explain.  If the earth has
such high tidal drag because of all the liquid sloshing around and the moon
has practically no tidal drag because of its solid structural stiffness, why
is the moon phase locked to the earth rather than the other way around?  Are
the mass differences really enough to account for that?

Has anyone come across either the calculations or results done by a
reputable astrophysicist?

Jeff


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On Dec 23, 2005, at 2:05 PM, John Coviello wrote:

> Does anyone have the the Israeli startup company Entergetics  
> Technologies' website?
>

The following 2004 vortex post may be of interest to you:

 From ??? ??? Mon Nov 22 20:53:41 2004
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November 21, 2004

Vortex,

Thanks to P. J van Noorden for posting the most interesting article  
Jones referred to but  too late to access online.
Mr. Irving Dardik made an oral presentation at the ICCF-11on Thursday  
November 04, 2004. His title was "The Super Wave Principle". He  
represented Energetics Technologies at the Conference. The  
Participant's List, as sent after the Conference, lists six other  
people from Energetics Technologies Ltd.
Energetics was noticed from the 8th ICCF (YR. 2,000), perhaps even  
earlier as they were inquiring around among the Participants with  
presentations. No doubt some were consulted as their laboratory was  
developed (in Israel) to probe into the many approaches to the CF  
effect.
Biberian and Josephson provided the ICCF-11 Participant's List a few  
days ago. In it, participants from Energetics are listed.
U.S.
Energetics.LLC.
7 Fieldview Lane
Califon, N.J.
(908) 439-9500

1. Dardik, Irving
irv energetics.us

ISRAEL
Energetics Technologies Ltd.
Industrial Park
84965 Omer
Israel
972-8-6901114

2. El-Boher, DR. Arik
ank energetics.co.il

3. Katchturov, Dr. Boris
kachat energetics.co.il

4. Krakov, Dr. Vitaly
ykrakov energetics.co.il

5. Lesin Dr. Shaul
lesin energetics.co.il

6.Tsirlin, Dr. Tsirlin, Dr. Mark
mark energetics.co.il


7. Zilov, Tanya
tanya energetics.co.il

It looks like the Israel based laboratory is staffed mostly from  
scientists from the former Soviet Union. Excess nuclear specialists?  
Just a guess. It feels like Energetics has Israel's blessing, albeit  
"underground".

The Washington Post mentions the SRI death incident as due to a  
Hydrogen-Oxygen explosion accident . I believe it was reported as a  
loaded palladium explosion incident when reported shortly after the  
incident. Fleischmann (& Pons?) issued an advisory to use small Pd  
samples in loading experiments around the time of the accident. The  
article also failed to mention a large explosion which wiped out part  
of Fleischmann & Pons' private laboratory  before 1989 in Utah(?).   
They were doing an overnight electrolysis Pd loading experiment.  
Nobody was there when it happened. It was found out the next morning.  
Eugene Mallove was aware of all of this. Then there is the  Mizuno  
incident (as translated by Rothwell) with a large Pd sample starting  
to heat up by itself after an loading experiment.

-ak-

end quote

Horace Heffner

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If this were the case would not the earth have long ago stopped slowing?

Personally, I believe the slowing of the earth is due to the increased 
hydroelectric damming.  Just as the ice skater slows when she extends 
arms while spinning, the extension of the mass of water from the center 
will slow the earth's rotation.

-----Original Message-----
From: Stephen A. Lawrence

My understanding is that the slowing of the Earth is due to tidal 
forces exerted on the Earth by the Moon.
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Hypocrisy is rife on both sides of the political fence; but, Peter 
Schweizer's book by the subject title is quite funny and sad:

http://tinyurl.com/cca4n

What is really sad is when this hypocrisy affects the human existence 
with the NIMBY attitudes of the residents of Cape Cod.  I wondered how 
they were going to block the installation of the off-shore wind 
generators without looking like fools.  Seems they have attached a 
rider to the Coast Guard Reauthoriaztion Bill which disallows wind 
generators within 1-1/2 miles of a shipping lane or ferry route.  Well 
anyone who has been near Martha's Vineyard knows that this bill secures 
the unfettered view from the Kennedy compound, et al.

It's very rare that I find myself signing a Greenpeace partition; but, 
we might all wish to consider this one:

http://usactions.greenpeace.org/action/start.php?action_id=76
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Horace wrote:

> These people never heard of cathodic protection systems?
> You can just bet the ground interface is not aluminum. 
> The energy providing consumable here is probably aluminum.
> Aluminum is a non-organic BTW.

Actually, there might be something to this, other than a
simple electrolytic cell.  I can't imagine anyone being
stupid enough to make such a mistake.

What I was thinking of was electric current generated by
a fluid pressure difference across a porous material.  A
year or so ago, some Canadian scientists discovered (re-
discovered) that water forced through a microscopically
porous plug would generate an electric current. This was
actually a repeat of Farday's experiment of around 1840.

When you think of what must be the enormous pressures 
it must take for trees to force fluids up and down their
capillary xylem and phloem, there is a possibility that
a useful potential exists between the top of a tree and
the ground.  Whether or not significant amounts of energy
can be extracted from this is another issue.

I guess it remains for some adventurous Vort to stick a
stainless steel fork into a top branch of a tree and
another such fork into the ground and measure the potential.
Stick a fork in it!

M.



_______________________________________________
Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
The most personalized portal on the Web!


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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Horace Heffner <hheffner mtaonline.net>
Subject: A historical walk on the wild side
Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 10:25:17 -0900
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A walk on the wild side:

<http://www.facebase.com/rhodes.html>

Robert Bass addresses Rhodes Scholars at Caltech 5 yrs ago.  Note  
link at bottom of page.

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From: "RC Macaulay" <walhalla cvtv.net>
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Subject: Merry Christmas all
Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 16:26:39 -0600
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BlankMay the season bring each joy and peace.

Richard


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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 25 00:59:41 2005
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On Fri, 23 Dec 2005, thomas malloy wrote:

> Vortexians;
>
> >
> >Also... whenever electrochemistry is concerned, I always wonder if
> >hyperthermophilic nanobacteria have involved themselves.  They specialize
>
> If nanobacteria are doing the reaction, why is electricity required?

Exactly.  What does nano-metabolism look like if it can be a "parasite" on

But I'm just speculating.  If nanobacteria play roles in various reactions
which we currently consider to be purely inorganic, then it wouldn't be so
impossible to see if this is true: just run the reactions under truely
sterile conditions.  (Figure out some bio-toxin which wipes them out.)  I
think the reason we currently consider the reactions to be inorganic is
because we don't see any organisms (since they're 300nM and smaller,) and
the reactions run the same even if all the materials were "sterilized" by
heat.  Wouldn't it be cool if many simple electrochem reactions
(batteries, electroplating) refused to work if they lacked nanobactrial
surface catalysts?



> According to Reich, nanobacteria, or something similar, can be
> produced by placing beach sand, previously heated to incandescence on
> sterile growth medium, in a orgone accumulator. Perhaps this strategy
> might be useful in inducing LENRs. It is reported that when he
> followed the above scenario, it gave him a tan with his clothes on,
> IMHO, that's a scarry thought.

Whoa, I've been musing about nanobacteria for years, yet totally forgot
about 'bions' claims!   Ooo!  Ultraviolet!  Brainstorm!

More wild-ass speculation: suppose that "shrunken hydrogen" is real, and
that life figured out long ago how to catalyze the exotherm reaction
converting water to shrunk-H.  If so, then nanobacteria would tend to emit
the Black Light frequencies of "Blacklight Power Inc."

Another topic: "strain 121", the hydrothermal vent bacteria which prefers
to live at 121C, actually came from much hotter water.  130C is the
current temperature record for living organisms in the lab, but nobody
knows how high other yet-to-be-cultured organisms might go, and also I
think the spore form of bacteria can survive higher temperatures than
living ones.  Vent water has been measured at 400C.

I have fantasies that some bacteria prefer incandescent temperatures, that
like many colonies they have metabolism which can generate their preferred
environment, that they infect the Earth to hundreds of miles depth if not
thousands... and that volcanos are biological!




(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb at amasci com                         http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair
Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci

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Subject: Re: A historical walk on the wild side
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At 10:25 am 24/12/2005 -0900, Horace wrote:

> A walk on the wild side:
>
> <http://www.facebase.com/rhodes.html>
>
> Robert Bass addresses Rhodes Scholars at Caltech 
> 5 yrs ago.  Note  
> link at bottom of page.


Very interesting reference and link.
And on that link, tragically, are some
telling comments on Randell Mills. The
following excerpt relating to his 
"extra curricular" activities was something
which I had found off-putting about Mills'
work.

=========================================================
http://www.padrak.com/ine/BASS_1.html#3

In June, 1997, more than 3 years ago, you were saying 
that you expected to have a stand-alone power generator 
"within 6 months." Now THREE YEARS have passed and 
I am told that you are waiting ANOTHER 6 months for 
delivery of some unavailable gyrotron component.  
Is it not fair now for the public to say about you what 
you said about CETI?  Why have you manifestly spent 
"thousands of hours" (judging by the amount of material 
in your book) on esoteric peripheral matters like DNA, 
Neural Networks, artificial intelligence, nature of 
consciousness, cosmology, gravitation, etc. instead of 
keeping to the implicit promise to your 160 stockholders 
of 1997 that you are developing a stand-alone power 
generator?  A single stand-alone demonstration, however,
crude and unsuitable for being a prototype for serial 
production, would suffice.
=======================================================

Even though cobblers are nearly obsolete perhaps it is 
not inappropriate to suggest that a cobbler should stick 
to his last.

Frank Grimer



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Nov 12 2005 -Dec 12 2005   kWh 1,125     200 kWh  0.0676070  $13.52
                                                                                925 kWh  0.0788440  $72.93

PV Refinancing Credit 1,125 kWh      0.0001240-   $0.14
Customer Charge    $2.80
Franchise Fee          $1.78
Gross Receipts Tax $6.13

Bottom Line Charge For 1,125 kWh    $97.02

Gas: Nov 13 2005 - Dec 12 2005  394 CCF  x 0.873000 = 343.962 Therms
Cost  of Gas  17 Days  Nov  201.633 Therms  $1.354000  $228.93
                          12`Days Dec  142.329 Therms   $0.9329000  $136.19
Surcharge  343.962 Therms  0.0025000  $0.86
Distribution  343.962 Therms   0.154000  $53.11
Transmission  343.962 Therms   0.0383000  $13.17
Access Fee                                                                 $9.00
Pipeline Safety Fee                                                  $0.06
Franchise Fee                                                            $13.19        
Gross Receipts Tax                                     $30.56

Bottom Line Charge For 342.862 Therms   $483.35

Note from Gas Co.

"Based on Last Years usage your next gas bill is estimated to be
between $201.00 and $243.00."

On Sunday Nov 13th 2005 the neighbors noticed a gas smell coming from
near the meter. The gas Co came and replaced the meter and made a $100.00
credit on the Oct 12 - Nov 12 bill. since we were paying
for their 12 year old defective meter. The new meter was set to 0.0000 on
Nov 13th 2005. 
Since going from the usual 500 kWh/month with summer refrigerated air to
1,125 kWh because of use of area electrical heaters so that the gas-fired
central heat thermostat was set at 68 F 24/7  as opposed to 71 F 24/7 last year 
where 168.00 Therms were used I expected to only use about  150.00 Therms 
or less this year.
Yesterday Dec 24th 2005 the gas Co sent out a tech on Xmas Eve to check for leaks and possibly a misread meter.
No problem was found.
However, when the house was Re-roofed because of Oct 2004 hail damage in June 
and the evaporative cooler tied to the main central heating duct was permanently removed for the switch
to area (window unit) refrigerated the large duct wasn't properly capped off,
meaning that the attic was warmer than the 68 F room air.
Sort of an Out-of-Pocket Global Warming donation?
It pays to have repairs double checked,No?

Fred

.   :-)
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<HTML><HEAD>
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2802" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Nov 12 2005 -Dec 12 2005&nbsp;&nbsp; kWh 1,125&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 200 kWh  0.0676070&nbsp; $13.52</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 925 kWh  0.0788440&nbsp; $72.93</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>PV Refinancing Credit 1,125 kWh&nbsp;  &nbsp;&nbsp; 0.0001240-&nbsp;&nbsp; $0.14</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Customer Charge&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; $2.80</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Franchise Fee&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;$1.78</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Gross Receipts Tax $6.13</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Bottom Line&nbsp;Charge For 1,125 kWh&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;$97.02</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Gas: Nov 13 2005 - Dec 12 2005&nbsp; 394 CCF&nbsp; x 0.873000 = 343.962 Therms</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Cost&nbsp; of Gas&nbsp; 17 Days&nbsp; Nov&nbsp; 201.633 Therms  $1.354000&nbsp; $228.93</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 12`Days Dec&nbsp; 142.329 Therms &nbsp;&nbsp;$0.9329000&nbsp; $136.19</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Surcharge&nbsp; 343.962 Therms  0.0025000&nbsp; $0.86</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Distribution&nbsp; 343.962 Therms   0.154000&nbsp; $53.11</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Transmission&nbsp; 343.962 Therms   0.0383000&nbsp; $13.17</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Access Fee&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; $9.00</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Pipeline Safety Fee&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; $0.06</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Franchise Fee&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; $13.19</FONT>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </DIV>
<DIV>Gross Receipts Tax&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; $30.56</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Bottom Line Charge For 342.862 Therms&nbsp;&nbsp; $483.35</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Note from Gas Co.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>"Based on Last Years usage your next gas bill is estimated to be</DIV>
<DIV>between $201.00 and $243.00."</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>On Sunday Nov 13th 2005 the neighbors noticed a gas smell coming from</DIV>
<DIV>near the meter. The gas Co came and replaced the meter and made a $100.00</DIV>
<DIV>credit on the Oct 12 - Nov&nbsp;12&nbsp;bill. since we were paying</DIV>
<DIV>for their 12 year old defective meter. The new meter was set to 0.0000 on</DIV>
<DIV>Nov 13th 2005. </DIV>
<DIV>Since going from the usual 500 kWh/month with summer refrigerated air to</DIV>
<DIV>1,125 kWh because of use of area electrical heaters so that the gas-fired</DIV>
<DIV>central heat thermostat was set at 68 F 24/7&nbsp; as opposed to 71 F 24/7 last year </DIV>
<DIV>where 168.00 Therms were used I expected to only use about&nbsp; 150.00 Therms </DIV>
<DIV>or less this year.</DIV>
<DIV>Yesterday Dec 24th 2005 the gas Co sent out a tech on Xmas Eve to check for leaks and possibly a misread meter.</DIV>
<DIV>No problem was found.</DIV>
<DIV>However, when the house was Re-roofed&nbsp;because of Oct 2004 hail&nbsp;damage in&nbsp;June </DIV>
<DIV>and the evaporative cooler tied to the main central heating duct was permanently removed for the switch</DIV>
<DIV>to area (window unit)&nbsp;refrigerated the large duct wasn't properly capped off,</DIV>
<DIV>meaning that the attic was warmer than the 68 F room air.</DIV>
<DIV>Sort of an Out-of-Pocket Global Warming donation?</DIV>
<DIV>It pays to have repairs double checked,No?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Fred</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>.&nbsp;&nbsp; :-)</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8--


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 25 06:29:50 2005
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Jed you said no-one was buying your book. I've just done so. I just put 
in a order for two good ones with some padding to cover postage. I hope 
its enough. Actually my order would have gone in before or at the same 
time as your vortex post.
Hang on to some of the miss prints, I've mentioned them to a few people 
and they believe the things will be very valuable after the cold fusion 
boom starts. If we can ever get the *%&*#  boom to start.
Like rare stamps the first server to ever carry an email sold for 
several million in the dot com boom. And it was broken!
Does everyone remember where they put their used cold fusion junk?

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 25 06:50:49 2005
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From: "Hoyt A. Stearns jr." <hoyt-stearns cox.net>
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Subject: Bizarre Life was : RE: weird glow from aluminum
Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2005 07:50:17 -0700
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Speaking of unusual life,

If you've spent much time examining the "rocks" from the Mars Pathfinder and
Spirit rovers, you
must come to the conclusion that something truly alien is going on.  I've
decided that 80% or more of these "rocks"
are alive in some sense (silicon based, powered by diurnal thermal
differences or solar peroxidation?).  After a while you
can see the patterns of similar looking rocks which seem to ooze appendages,
climb on top of one another and just behave in
bizarre ways that rocks don't. It's hard to describe since English has no
words for these shapes.  I've come up with a few, like
"stuffed duffelbag" and others on http://turbotip.webhop.net (which hasn't
been updated for years).  I think the time scale of these
lifeforms is very much slower than terrestrial life, since motion isn't seen
in most cases from day to day.

If you want to peruse these, download the Java programs from
http://midnightmarsbrowser.blogspot.com and get all the images for Spirit.
("Opportunity" is in a desert and not interesting).

Some of these images show what looks like construction debris, old
machinery, building foundations, roads etc.

There is also plenty of evidence of civilizations on Mars also from the
orbital cameras also.

I don't think you'll find any useful technology there as their reality is
very different from ours.
They do use right hand threaded screws and box beams rather than I beams.

Hoyt Stearns
Scottsdale, Arizona

(80oF Christmas :-) )





-----Original Message-----
From: William Beaty [mailto:billb eskimo.com]
Sent: Sunday, December 25, 2005 1:59 AM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: weird glow from aluminum




Exactly.  What does nano-metabolism look like if it can be a "parasite" on

But I'm just speculating.  If nanobacteria play roles in various reactions
which we currently consider to be purely inorganic, then it wouldn't be so
impossible to see if this is true: just run the reactions under truely
sterile conditions.  (Figure out some bio-toxin which wipes them out.)  I
think the reason we currently consider the reactions to be inorganic is
because we don't see any organisms (since they're 300nM and smaller,) and
the reactions run the same even if all the materials were "sterilized" by
heat.  Wouldn't it be cool if many simple electrochem reactions
(batteries, electroplating) refused to work if they lacked nanobactrial
surface catalysts?



> According to Reich, nanobacteria, or something similar, can be
> produced by placing beach sand, previously heated to incandescence on
> sterile growth medium, in a orgone accumulator. Perhaps this strategy
> might be useful in inducing LENRs. It is reported that when he
> followed the above scenario, it gave him a tan with his clothes on,
> IMHO, that's a scarry thought.


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Feel guilty about your greenhouse emissions (your car not your bowel)?  
Then buy a Terrapass and drive guilt-free:

http://www.terrapass.com/index.html
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 25 14:58:52 2005
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From: Merlyn <merlyn_3k yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Global Warming
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Realistically, 23 seconds in 33 years sounds to me
like our clocks are just now becoming accurate enough
to tell us that our calender year is a couple seconds
short.

Friction from tidal crust distortion would create
heat.  Been doing it for years.

Don't forget to account for the addition of mass to
the system by way of "space dust", I remember reading
somewhere that the Earth's diameter increases by a
couple of millimeters annually due to addition of
material from space (meteors, solar wind, etc.)
Perhaps this additional mass is responsible for
keeping the ever accelerating moon from flying off
into space, and it's orbital radius is not much
different from what it was when the system formed.

--- "gesrebspar juno.com" <gesrebspar@juno.com> wrote:

> Vortexians- The evening news on ABC ststed that the
> clock watchers
>             are going to add a leap second to the
> last second of
>              Dec.31,2005 to correct the clocks to
> the earths rotation.
>             It seems that they have had to add 23
> seconds since
>             1972 to correct clocks. The Earth has
> been slowing down 
>             its rotation speed.
>                  The slowing of the earth should
> increase its 
>             temperature I would think (Im possibly
> wrong.)
>             It does seem to coinside with the years
> of  biggest 
>             increase of  temperature. Or as many
> suspect just a normal
>              cycle.
>             A cycle we are not aware of.
>                              _ges-
>                     
> 
> 
> 


Merlyn
Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist


		
__________________________________________ 
Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about. 
Just $16.99/mo. or less. 
dsl.yahoo.com 

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Really.  I just spent $90,000 on an Agilent cesium tube standard with a 
spare tube.  Shortly thereafter Agilent (formerly HP) sold the product.

I would appreciate any argument which can be supported by the relevent 
data.

-----Original Message-----

Realistically, 23 seconds in 33 years sounds to me
like our clocks are just now becoming accurate enough
to tell us that our calender year is a couple seconds
short.
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Horace Heffner wrote:
> A walk on the wild side:
> 
> <http://www.facebase.com/rhodes.html>
> 
> Robert Bass addresses Rhodes Scholars at Caltech 5 yrs ago.  Note  link 
> at bottom of page.

Regarding the link:  Wow.  Impressive letter.

I don't know nearly enough to comment intelligently on Mills, but my gut 
reaction has never been positive.  I find Bass's insinuations very easy 
to believe.

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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" <salaw pobox.com>
Subject: Re: A historical walk on the wild side


>
>
> Horace Heffner wrote:
>> A walk on the wild side:
>>
>> <http://www.facebase.com/rhodes.html>
>>
>> Robert Bass addresses Rhodes Scholars at Caltech 5 yrs ago.  Note  link 
>> at bottom of page.
>
> Regarding the link:  Wow.  Impressive letter.
>
> I don't know nearly enough to comment intelligently on Mills, but my gut 
> reaction has never been positive.  I find Bass's insinuations very easy to 
> believe.
-------------------------------------------
I've been aware of Robert Bass for some years, and he is a brilliant 
individual of considerable scope. For example, he taught astronomy at BYU. A 
number of decades ago, I was following the Velikovsky affair rather closely. 
One broad criticism of Velikovsky's 'Worlds in Collision' scenario is the 
assumption that the planetray orbits have been observed to be stable for 
centuries, and therefore could not possibly have undergone the perturbations 
required by Velikovsky *and* settled into stable orbits within historical 
time. Bass advanced an anlysis of celestial dynamics based on sophisticated 
math which purported to prove that the orbital damping is much higher than 
supposed by conventional analysis, and therefore that argument could not be 
used against Velikovsky.

Bass was present a Cold Fusion colloquium in 2005, organized by Dr. Mitchell 
Swartz. Bass did not speak, and I didn't have a chance to speak to him. 
apparently he was there in his capacity as a technical patent attorney.

Steve Lawrence properly characterized Bass's letters as insinuating. I can't 
speak to the mathematical analysis, which seems to parallel that made by 
Connett and others. As for as the references to gyrotrons, Bass was very 
superficial. Procurement of a standard gyrotron microwave amplifier from a 
commercial source is in no way similar to the custom design that would be 
required by Mills' speculations of the time, and Bass should have known 
better if he had actually looked at the situation.

As far as the gyrotron thread, critics on HSG have thought me gullible, but 
at the time I criticized the gyrotron idea as fundamentally unfeasible 
because its operation requires a hard vacuum with long mean free paths for 
electrons. Such is fundamentally incompatable with a BLP plasma as the 
source of fast electrons.

Steve is quite ready to accept negative indicators about the Mills affair. 
He should put the Bass comments into the context of their time and look more 
carefully at the recent experiments for himself, not at other's opinions 
about the experiments.

Mike Carrell 


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From: Horace Heffner <hheffner mtaonline.net>
Subject: Re: weird glow from aluminum in baking soda solution
Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 14:24:37 -0900
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On Dec 19, 2005, at 9:50 AM, William Beaty wrote:


> See  <http://home.earthlink.net/~lenyr/borax.htm>
>
> What is the mechanism?
>
>
> Brian Whatcott    Altus OK    Eureka!


I just noticed in the above page Nyle Steiner writes: "The aluminum  
becomes the cathode after a forming process of applying some ac  
current through the rectifier. ... It seems that aluminum is  
necessary for the cathode, but the anode can be just about anything  
that conducts electricity."

This seems to me to be wrong.  Aluminum becomes the anode.  The diode  
effect is at the aluminum-electrolyte interface.  Also, only when  
used as an anode does the aluminum have the weird glow.

The following is extracted from an experiment report in:

     <http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/BlueAEH.pdf>

"Warmed up" cell by running at about 100 mA (variac at 10 then up to  
to 20 %) for about 5 minutes. Glow clearly visible in dark but noise  
not yet started.

Put some dummy diode pairs (P1 and P2)rated at  15kV Peak V, 100 mA,  
into circuit like so:


P1 and P2 both look like:

  -----|>|-------
    |        |
    ---|<|----


Circuit:


  --------V1----T1--A1---P1------o
          ||    ||
  --------V1----T1-------P2------o


V1 - variac
T1 - HV transformer
A1 - mA meter
Pi - dummy diode pairs

Continued to run as before about 5 minutes.  Both electrode glowed as  
before.   This verifies that 2 pairs of these particular type of  
diodes work OK in circuit.

Tried geiger counter within about 1" of electrodes.  Got no increased  
counts.

Switched off variac when current was at 70 mA, leaving voltage  
setting alone.


Then inserted full bridge B1 made of same type of diodes:


Circuit:


  --------V1----T1--A1----B1------o +
          ||    ||        ||
  --------V1----T1--------B1------o -


V1 - variac
T1 - HV transformer
A1 - mA meter
B1 - full rectifier bridge

Switched on variac and noted:

(1) only one electrode lit, the other was totally dark
(2) it was not nearly as bright as before
(3) noticeably more gas evolved at the dark electrode when DC used
(4) same current (about 70 mA).
(5) unexpectedly, it was the anode that lit.
(6) the full surface of the anode lit, as before

Swapped + and - leads and the other electrode lit.  Glow went with  
the + pole.

Just to check my understanding, the diodes are marked with a stripe  
at the end:


P              N

-------|>|-------
              stripe at this end of diode
              indicates diode cathode

        i ----->   conventional current moves this way
   <--- e-         electrons move this way only


   - end      + end



If circuit is like below then electrode marked + is anode of cell:



  --------V1----T1--A1----|>|-----o +
          ||    ||
  --------V1----T1--------|<|-----o -

It is the anode of the cell, the electrode closest to the bar on the  
diode that glows."

Anything wrong here?

Horace Heffner

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From: Horace Heffner <hheffner mtaonline.net>
Subject: Re: weird glow from aluminum in baking soda solution
Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 15:28:23 -0900
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On Dec 19, 2005, at 12:33 PM, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

> In reply to  William Beaty's message of Mon, 19 Dec 2005 10:50:46
> -0800 (PST):
> Hi,
> [snip]
>> Mix 1 tablespoon baking soda in 1 pint water.
>> Cut two electrodes from an aluminum pie dish
>> Place the elctrodes on opposite sides of a jam-jar.
>>
>> Connect the electrolytic cell in series with a 75 watt lamp
>> to a 120 volt AC line supply - or better, through a 1:1
>> isolation transformer.      Care!
>>
>> The light quickly dims.
>> In a dark room, the electrodes glow.
>>
>> See  <http://home.earthlink.net/~lenyr/borax.htm>
>>
>> What is the mechanism?
> [snip]
> If the electrodes do indeed form diodes, and the glow occurs
> during reverse bias, then that is when a high voltage falls across
> a very thin chemical layer. The electron leakage current could be
> sufficiently accelerated to produce energetic electrons capable of
> exciting high energy (i.e. blue) transitions within the atoms.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Robin van Spaandonk

Did you read my recent posts in this thread??  Summarizing:

"At this point it seems reasonable that the stripping of the electron  
possibly occurs with great frequency when the hydroxyl radical is  
separated from the anode by the first atomic layer of the anode  
interface.  This effect could only happen in the presence of a  
screening layer that prevents current flowing from the anode to the  
electrolyte via positively charged metal ions. Such an ion current  
would reduce the voltage drop across the interface to a few volts.   
With the ion screen in place, only electron motion can make the  
current flow."

"Given a voltage drop across the interface of 120 V, and a thickness  
of the nonconducting layer near the anode as 4 angstroms, the  
electrostatic field would be 3x10^11 V/m, or over 30 V/(hydrogen  
atomic radius)."

"This should be plenty strong enough to strip an electron from the  
OH- and drive it as a free electron through the water molecules of  
the interface.  Such an ionizing influence would have the power to   
disassociate water, and subsequently cause the recombining of the  
products.  Therefore, recombination may well be the cause of the blue- 
green glow.  This would explain why the color of the glow on Al and  
Zr anodes is the same color."

"It seems this set of assumptions explains the known results, other  
than my recollection of a reduced Faradaic efficiency, a recollection  
which may well be flawed."

I would add, however, that 30 eV per atom is not "high energy" in the  
conventional sense, but of course plenty high enough to make blue  
photons.  There is no direct explanation for high energy beta  
production, if that should exist, or LENR, for example. The field  
strength is astronomical, but only over a short distance, so there is  
no conventional reason to expect particle energies much over the cell  
operating voltage.  I've provided here a number of (lunatic fringe)  
reasons to expect high energy events though.

It is not clear to me the exact reaction that produces the weird  
glow, however. At this point I don't think it is aluminum (or  
zirconium) oxidation, for example, because they should produce  
differing colors.  I suspect it is an oxygen, carbon, or silicon  
related reaction, possibly involving some means of converting  
ultraviolet to the visible spectrum due to electrolyte contents.  I  
think acetic acid (pure distilled vinegar) electrolyte produces an  
especially green glow, and some electrolyte/electrode combinations  
produce a more blue-green glow - but this is highly subjective and  
needs substantiation via spectrometry.

Michael Foster wrote: "If you add a fluorescent dye to the  
electrolyte you get a much brighter display. And  of course, you can  
choose the color you want.  Fluorescein or rhodamine 6G work  
nicely."  I don't know if this is first hand experimental knowledge,  
but if so then a large part of the photon energy created must be UV."

In addition to stripping electrons from OH- radicals, the high field  
gradient can strip protons from water molecules:

    H2O  --->  OH- + H+     (occurs normally due to Boltzman tail,
                                 but highly enhanced by gradient)

    H2O + H+  --->  H3O+    (normal immediate hydronium creation  
follows)

and there are lots of reactions involving variants of hydrogen  
peroxide as well.

The ion free zone created just in front of the anode by the high  
field gradient would be expected to spontaneously and continuously  
ionize just by normal thermal means, and this would be accomplished  
by use of ambient heat.  This might be manipulated to demonstrate 2nd  
law violations upon calorimetry.

It is notable that the layer forming on the anode does conduct  
electrons (i.e. in forward bias mode) but not ions.  It is not  
actually a diode layer per say, but requires the electrolyte to  
create the diode effect, specifically an electrolyte with anions like  
OH- which are blocked by the insulating layer, and an electrolyte  
which is principally conductive via proton tunneling.

I should also note that this glow regime should be carefully  
investigated for Fardaic efficiency.  It appeared to me to possibly  
not produce as much hydrogen as would be expected, especially at the  
anode.

Horace Heffner

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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: weird glow from aluminum in baking soda solution
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At Sandia Labs in 1960-61 I made instant Hard Anodized Aluminum (6061T6)
rods and
strips by dipping them into a weak acid solution such as "Molybdic" with
lots
of dry ice in the solution using a brass plate as the cathode.
A 250 D.C. power supply >500 Ma and one hand in pocket as the Al touched
the surface
 made a smooth, insulating grayish anodized coating as the material was
immersed in the electrolyte,
that took over 3 kV to get breakdown using a scribe.lots of arcing-sparking
but we got the
parts we needed.

There weren't any pharisees at hand.

Baking Soda NaHCO3 undergoes Hydrolysis of HCO3- to form OH - anions too.

Fred


> [Original Message]
> From: Horace Heffner <hheffner mtaonline.net>
> To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> Date: 12/26/2005 5:30:01 PM
> Subject: Re: weird glow from aluminum in baking soda solution
>
>
> On Dec 19, 2005, at 12:33 PM, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>
> > In reply to  William Beaty's message of Mon, 19 Dec 2005 10:50:46
> > -0800 (PST):
> > Hi,
> > [snip]
> >> Mix 1 tablespoon baking soda in 1 pint water.
> >> Cut two electrodes from an aluminum pie dish
> >> Place the elctrodes on opposite sides of a jam-jar.
> >>
> >> Connect the electrolytic cell in series with a 75 watt lamp
> >> to a 120 volt AC line supply - or better, through a 1:1
> >> isolation transformer.      Care!
> >>
> >> The light quickly dims.
> >> In a dark room, the electrodes glow.
> >>
> >> See  <http://home.earthlink.net/~lenyr/borax.htm>
> >>
> >> What is the mechanism?
> > [snip]
> > If the electrodes do indeed form diodes, and the glow occurs
> > during reverse bias, then that is when a high voltage falls across
> > a very thin chemical layer. The electron leakage current could be
> > sufficiently accelerated to produce energetic electrons capable of
> > exciting high energy (i.e. blue) transitions within the atoms.
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Robin van Spaandonk
>
> Did you read my recent posts in this thread??  Summarizing:
>
> "At this point it seems reasonable that the stripping of the electron  
> possibly occurs with great frequency when the hydroxyl radical is  
> separated from the anode by the first atomic layer of the anode  
> interface.  This effect could only happen in the presence of a  
> screening layer that prevents current flowing from the anode to the  
> electrolyte via positively charged metal ions. Such an ion current  
> would reduce the voltage drop across the interface to a few volts.   
> With the ion screen in place, only electron motion can make the  
> current flow."
>
> "Given a voltage drop across the interface of 120 V, and a thickness  
> of the nonconducting layer near the anode as 4 angstroms, the  
> electrostatic field would be 3x10^11 V/m, or over 30 V/(hydrogen  
> atomic radius)."
>
> "This should be plenty strong enough to strip an electron from the  
> OH- and drive it as a free electron through the water molecules of  
> the interface.  Such an ionizing influence would have the power to   
> disassociate water, and subsequently cause the recombining of the  
> products.  Therefore, recombination may well be the cause of the blue- 
> green glow.  This would explain why the color of the glow on Al and  
> Zr anodes is the same color."
>
> "It seems this set of assumptions explains the known results, other  
> than my recollection of a reduced Faradaic efficiency, a recollection  
> which may well be flawed."
>
> I would add, however, that 30 eV per atom is not "high energy" in the  
> conventional sense, but of course plenty high enough to make blue  
> photons.  There is no direct explanation for high energy beta  
> production, if that should exist, or LENR, for example. The field  
> strength is astronomical, but only over a short distance, so there is  
> no conventional reason to expect particle energies much over the cell  
> operating voltage.  I've provided here a number of (lunatic fringe)  
> reasons to expect high energy events though.
>
> It is not clear to me the exact reaction that produces the weird  
> glow, however. At this point I don't think it is aluminum (or  
> zirconium) oxidation, for example, because they should produce  
> differing colors.  I suspect it is an oxygen, carbon, or silicon  
> related reaction, possibly involving some means of converting  
> ultraviolet to the visible spectrum due to electrolyte contents.  I  
> think acetic acid (pure distilled vinegar) electrolyte produces an  
> especially green glow, and some electrolyte/electrode combinations  
> produce a more blue-green glow - but this is highly subjective and  
> needs substantiation via spectrometry.
>
> Michael Foster wrote: "If you add a fluorescent dye to the  
> electrolyte you get a much brighter display. And  of course, you can  
> choose the color you want.  Fluorescein or rhodamine 6G work  
> nicely."  I don't know if this is first hand experimental knowledge,  
> but if so then a large part of the photon energy created must be UV."
>
> In addition to stripping electrons from OH- radicals, the high field  
> gradient can strip protons from water molecules:
>
>     H2O  --->  OH- + H+     (occurs normally due to Boltzman tail,
>                                  but highly enhanced by gradient)
>
>     H2O + H+  --->  H3O+    (normal immediate hydronium creation  
> follows)
>
> and there are lots of reactions involving variants of hydrogen  
> peroxide as well.
>
> The ion free zone created just in front of the anode by the high  
> field gradient would be expected to spontaneously and continuously  
> ionize just by normal thermal means, and this would be accomplished  
> by use of ambient heat.  This might be manipulated to demonstrate 2nd  
> law violations upon calorimetry.
>
> It is notable that the layer forming on the anode does conduct  
> electrons (i.e. in forward bias mode) but not ions.  It is not  
> actually a diode layer per say, but requires the electrolyte to  
> create the diode effect, specifically an electrolyte with anions like  
> OH- which are blocked by the insulating layer, and an electrolyte  
> which is principally conductive via proton tunneling.
>
> I should also note that this glow regime should be carefully  
> investigated for Fardaic efficiency.  It appeared to me to possibly  
> not produce as much hydrogen as would be expected, especially at the  
> anode.
>
> Horace Heffner
>



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Subject: Hydrogen Pipeline Engineering
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A hydrogen “economy” wherein hydrogen is produced  at filling  
stations, or other local area places of demand, provides no energy  
source.  It merely uses hydrogen as an energy token.  It is not a  
real energy economy, a real solution to the energy problem, because  
no energy source is provided.  Existing forms of energy are converted  
to hydrogen and through the conversion process overall global energy  
efficiency is reduced.

Hydrogen produced at the location of  actual energy sources, like  
geothermal, solar, wind or nuclear hydrogen generating nuclear  
plants, requires hydrogen transport.  Pipelines are the common method  
for making typical medium distance gas trades over land .   Hydrogen  
pipelines will likely be necessary to achieve the dream of conversion  
to a true hydrogen economy.

Much discussion is made of the research and delay required to utilize  
the hydrogen in this new economy, e.g. in motor vehicles through as  
yet non-economical fuel cells.  However, the research required to  
build hydrogen pipelines may take research requiring an even longer  
lead time that utilization devices.  That research must begin now if  
the hydrogen  energy economy dream is expected to be fulfilled in a  
30 year time frame.  Existing natural gas transmission companies are  
likely candidates to do this research.

Hydrogen transmission line engineering may have some problems and  
surprises in store due to hydrogen embrittlement.  This would  
especially be a problem for the gas turbines which would be hydrogen  
fueled and for the compressor blades used to push hydrogen upstream  
in the pipeline.  High pressure valves, bearings, seals and  
lubricants would have to be tested long term, etc.  Merely converting  
existing  natural gas pipelines is not a reasonable approach, at  
least not without major engineering and long term testing.

Much engineering related to transmission line operations has to be  
accomplished as well, like modeling line pack, supercompressibility  
effects, jet engine performance, storage reservoir performance, and  
other parameters currently used in natural gas transmission  
simulations and operating models.   Transmission lines are  
considerably different from distribution systems, and a lot more  
dangerous.  Broken natural gas transmission lines can and have wiped  
out large areas by explosion.  Hydrogen transmission lines might be  
able to do the same thing.  The problem is doing the engineering to  
find out what kinds of maintenance and operating procedures must be  
used to prevent catastrophes.

In addition to the work required for hydrogen transmission systems,  
hydrogen distribution networks require specialized engineering  and  
construction research, including piping, metering, and regulation  
devices.  New, modeling and planning tools are required.

A major project is clearly mandated which consists of component  
identification,  engineering, and prototype construction, to be  
followed by a system integration including a transmission pipeline  
loop, with attached distribution system.  This would not be a system  
for commercial use, but rather a system solely for engineering and  
testing purposes.  Such a system would have an importance similar to  
that of the major wind tunnels operated by NASA.

If we are serious about a hydrogen economy, this kind of engineering  
and integrated testing should proceed soon.

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From: Horace Heffner <hheffner mtaonline.net>
Subject: Re: weird glow from aluminum in baking soda solution
Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 18:03:09 -0900
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On Dec 26, 2005, at 5:09 PM, Frederick Sparber wrote:

> At Sandia Labs in 1960-61 I made instant Hard Anodized Aluminum  
> (6061T6)
> rods and
> strips by dipping them into a weak acid solution such as "Molybdic"  
> with
> lots
> of dry ice in the solution using a brass plate as the cathode.
> A 250 D.C. power supply >500 Ma and one hand in pocket as the Al  
> touched
> the surface
>  made a smooth, insulating grayish anodized coating as the material  
> was
> immersed in the electrolyte,
> that took over 3 kV to get breakdown using a scribe.lots of arcing- 
> sparking
> but we got the
> parts we needed.
>
> There weren't any pharisees at hand.
>
> Baking Soda NaHCO3 undergoes Hydrolysis of HCO3- to form OH -  
> anions too.
>
> Fred


Yes, you have posted this here before.  Interesting about the dry  
ice.  Was that for cooling purposes only or do you think the carbon  
played a role in the coating formation?  A critical factor in  
creating the weird glow and diode effect is maintaining electron  
conduction even though anions are screened.  It may be reasonable to  
expect carbon provides some electron conduction, though given the  
breakdown voltage of your coating was 3 kV then probably not much  
carbon in the coating. Maybe more carbon goes into a film created  
using baking soda or vinegar electrolytes.

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Mike Carrell wrote:
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" <salaw pobox.com>
> Subject: Re: A historical walk on the wild side
> 
> 
>>
>>
>> Horace Heffner wrote:
>>
>>> A walk on the wild side:
>>>
>>> <http://www.facebase.com/rhodes.html>
>>>
>>> Robert Bass addresses Rhodes Scholars at Caltech 5 yrs ago.  Note  
>>> link at bottom of page.
>>
>>
>> Regarding the link:  Wow.  Impressive letter.
>>
>> I don't know nearly enough to comment intelligently on Mills, but my 
>> gut reaction has never been positive.  I find Bass's insinuations very 
>> easy to believe.
> 
> -------------------------------------------
> I've been aware of Robert Bass for some years, and he is a brilliant 
> individual of considerable scope. For example, he taught astronomy at 
> BYU. A number of decades ago, I was following the Velikovsky affair 
> rather closely. One broad criticism of Velikovsky's 'Worlds in 
> Collision' scenario is the assumption that the planetray orbits have 
> been observed to be stable for centuries, and therefore could not 
> possibly have undergone the perturbations required by Velikovsky *and* 
> settled into stable orbits within historical time. Bass advanced an 
> anlysis of celestial dynamics based on sophisticated math which 
> purported to prove that the orbital damping is much higher than supposed 
> by conventional analysis, and therefore that argument could not be used 
> against Velikovsky.
> 
> Bass was present a Cold Fusion colloquium in 2005, organized by Dr. 
> Mitchell Swartz. Bass did not speak, and I didn't have a chance to speak 
> to him. apparently he was there in his capacity as a technical patent 
> attorney.
> 
> Steve Lawrence properly characterized Bass's letters as insinuating. I 
> can't speak to the mathematical analysis, which seems to parallel that 
> made by Connett and others. As for as the references to gyrotrons, Bass 
> was very superficial. Procurement of a standard gyrotron microwave 
> amplifier from a commercial source is in no way similar to the custom 
> design that would be required by Mills' speculations of the time, and 
> Bass should have known better if he had actually looked at the situation.
> 
> As far as the gyrotron thread, critics on HSG have thought me gullible, 
> but at the time I criticized the gyrotron idea as fundamentally 
> unfeasible because its operation requires a hard vacuum with long mean 
> free paths for electrons. Such is fundamentally incompatable with a BLP 
> plasma as the source of fast electrons.
> 
> Steve is quite ready to accept negative indicators about the Mills 
> affair. He should put the Bass comments into the context of their time 
> and look more carefully at the recent experiments for himself, not at 
> other's opinions about the experiments.

Well, if a demo product was promised in 6 months, back in 2000, that 
doesn't speak well for the current situation... but then, everybody's 
optimistic about delivery schedules and a five-year slip in something 
like this might be reasonable.

But in any case, yes, it's true that I'm very open to negative criticism 
of Mills.  His theory requires, among other things, ditching the 
uncertainty principle, which cuts pretty deep in an area where 
predictions of the current theory have been very well verified.  QM in 
general did not exactly fly in with no opposition; it was tested and 
found accurate in its domain of application over the objections of such 
heavy hitters as Einstein.  When someone starts by saying we need to 
chuck it all because it's wrong about such a fundamental thing as the 
ground state of hydrogen I don't get a comfortable feeling.

Now, you may very reasonably accuse me of all sorts of bad bias and of 
having a shallow, prejudiced viewpoint as a result of that preceding 
paragraph, and perhaps you're right.  But in fact, my unreasoning 
knee-jerk reactions, if you would like to characterize them so, go even 
deeper than that in this case.

Mills has published results which include anomalous results of various 
experiments, which prove that conventional physics and/or chemistry are 
incorrect in some fundamental ways, while his theory correctly predicted 
the results he observed.  But until those experiments have been 
replicated by an independent scientist, working from the published 
description, without the direct involvement of Mills himself, I would 
not say that they have been replicated.  As far as I know, that hasn't 
happened.  Mills has stockholders, he has investors, he has pulled in a 
lot of money with his theory; he is not a disinterested observer of the 
results of his experiments.  He has a lot riding on the results coming 
out right.  Therefore I hesitate to accept his testimony as to 
surprising results he's obtained without solid external coroboration, in 
the form of independent replication.  Google "Hwang Woo Suk" if you 
don't get my point.

To put it bluntly, it would be great if I were eventually proved wrong, 
but at this time I don't believe in Mills, nor in the hydrino.  Cold 
fusion, which has been demonstrated many times over by numerous 
researchers, seems far, far more likely to lead somewhere useful.  If I 
don't spend time reading Mills' papers, well, that's why.

So, call me a bigot, call me a fool; be that as it may, I'm convinced CF 
is real, and I'm fairly sure Mills's results are not.

And if Mills' work _has_ been replicated by an independent lab, by all 
means post the links to one or more papers published by his 
replicator(s) and I will read them with great interest and I will 
happily apologize for being such a pig-headed Bob Park-type.

(Tests of particular substances, at Mills's request, showing particular 
individual properties, done by fee-for-service laboratories, aren't what 
I'm talking about, of course.)

> 
> Mike Carrell
> 
> 

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From: Horace Heffner <hheffner mtaonline.net>
Subject: Re: weird glow from aluminum in baking soda solution
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On Dec 19, 2005, at 12:33 PM, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:


> If the electrodes do indeed form diodes, and the glow occurs
> during reverse bias, then that is when a high voltage falls across
> a very thin chemical layer. The electron leakage current could be
> sufficiently accelerated to produce energetic electrons capable of
> exciting high energy (i.e. blue) transitions within the atoms.

When I read this I was very concerned that this is what I had been  
saying, so why the need here to say it again?  Did I not post  
something?  However, between preparing stuff for the web site,  
private exchanges, and posting some thoughts as they developed, I can  
see that it is not at all clear exactly what I have been saying.     
At any rate, a hopefully more coherent exposition can be found at:

<http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/GlowExper.pdf>


Horace Heffner

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Google returns 150,000 hits on the exact phrase "hydrogen research".  
There is a great deal of research underway in both the public:

http://www.nrel.gov/programs/hydrogen.html

http://www.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/production/doe_rd.html

and private sectors:

http://www.switch2hydrogen.com/h2new.htm

The last reference had a catastrophic failure of one of their test 
vehicles due to embrittlement.  I hope it wasn't that beautiful 
Corvette.  What is interesting is their smart tank storage technology.

A visit to the parent company site:

http://www.unitednuclear.com/supplies.htm

has a nice collection of toys including uranium available online.

-----Original Message-----
From: Horace Heffner

A hydrogen "economy" wherein hydrogen is produced at filling stations, 
or other local area places of demand, provides no energy source.

___________________________________________________
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" <salaw pobox.com>
Subject: Re: A historical walk on the wild side


<snip>, beginning Steve's comments:

> Well, if a demo product was promised in 6 months, back in 2000, that 
> doesn't speak well for the current situation... but then, everybody's 
> optimistic about delivery schedules and a five-year slip in something like 
> this might be reasonable.

I don't know about you, but in my 38 years in a large company, witnessing 
startups, etc., I found it always takes longer than you think, even with 
established technology. With really new stuff, it takes longer, much longer.
>
> But in any case, yes, it's true that I'm very open to negative criticism 
> of Mills.  His theory requires, among other things, ditching the 
> uncertainty principle, which cuts pretty deep in an area where predictions 
> of the current theory have been very well verified.  QM in general did not 
> exactly fly in with no opposition; it was tested and found accurate in its 
> domain of application over the objections of such heavy hitters as 
> Einstein.  When someone starts by saying we need to chuck it all because 
> it's wrong about such a fundamental thing as the ground state of hydrogen 
> I don't get a comfortable feeling.

Well, when I first encountered the idea of the OS, I was not comfortable 
either, but for me the experiments matter, and the theory will fall into 
place in due course. Nature speaks in experiments, mere men speak in theory.
>
> Now, you may very reasonably accuse me of all sorts of bad bias and of 
> having a shallow, prejudiced viewpoint as a result of that preceding 
> paragraph, and perhaps you're right.  But in fact, my unreasoning 
> knee-jerk reactions, if you would like to characterize them so, go even 
> deeper than that in this case.
>
> Mills has published results which include anomalous results of various 
> experiments, which prove that conventional physics and/or chemistry are 
> incorrect in some fundamental ways, while his theory correctly predicted 
> the results he observed.  But until those experiments have been replicated 
> by an independent scientist, working from the published description, 
> without the direct involvement of Mills himself, I would not say that they 
> have been replicated.  As far as I know, that hasn't happened. Mills has 
> stockholders, he has investors, he has pulled in a lot of money with his 
> theory; he is not a disinterested observer of the results of his 
> experiments.  He has a lot riding on the results coming out right. 
> Therefore I hesitate to accept his testimony as to surprising results he's 
> obtained without solid external coroboration, in the form of independent 
> replication.  Google "Hwang Woo Suk" if you don't get my point.

This point has been pounded on endlessly on the HSG forum. As stated, it 
implies that the posted body of work is essentially a work of fiction, or at 
best carefully selected 'best' results, happy accidents. If it were not that 
so much hangs on the experiments, they would be readily accepted. Before the 
BLP labs were set up. Mills paid for experimental work to be done in a 
number of industrial and university laboratories with enough positiv 
eresults to keep going. Those reports are no longer at the surface of the 
website, but are found in earlier editions of Mills' book. If you insist 
that Mills have absolutely no connection with a test, then the field is 
thin. Presently BLP is building test equipment for the use of propective 
partners.
>
> To put it bluntly, it would be great if I were eventually proved wrong, 
> but at this time I don't believe in Mills, nor in the hydrino.  Cold 
> fusion, which has been demonstrated many times over by numerous 
> researchers, seems far, far more likely to lead somewhere useful.  If I 
> don't spend time reading Mills' papers, well, that's why.

I have been engaged in the colf fusion field longer than with BLP and am 
quite aware of its status. You are correct that the CF effects have been 
seen by many, and that is hopeful, but note, please, that it has ***not*** 
convinced anyone official in establishment physics. You protest Mills' 
theory, but there is none for the whole spectrum of CF/LENR/CMNS phenomena. 
The whole field is cursed by a lack of reproduceability, especially 
reproduceability of large effects. The hallmark of the CF reactions is 
excess heat, and calorimetry is a basic skill  done with great expertise. 
Mills' water bath calorimetry is an elegant experiment in which it is 
repeatedly shown that hydrogen can yield 100 times the heat of combustion --  
not as much as the nuclear reactions, but very, very useful.

In terms of organization and devices, BLP is well ahead of the CF/LENR/CMNS 
field.

And Steve, if you are familiar with the CF technology, the one paper you 
should read is Phillips' paper on the water bath calorimeter, as published 
in the Journal of Applied Physics.
>
> So, call me a bigot, call me a fool; be that as it may, I'm convinced CF 
> is real, and I'm fairly sure Mills's results are not.

Interesting. You believe CF is 'real' [as I do], yet there is no accepted 
theory. You disagree with Mills' theory, audacious as it is, and deny that 
the experimental results are 'real' because work done in other labs with 
Mills' advice might somehouw be contaminated.
>
> And if Mills' work _has_ been replicated by an independent lab, by all 
> means post the links to one or more papers published by his replicator(s) 
> and I will read them with great interest and I will happily apologize for 
> being such a pig-headed Bob Park-type.

Well, try Conrads' paper: Emission in the Deep Vacuum Ultraviolet from a 
Plasma Formed by Incandescently Heating Hydrogen Gas with Trace Amounts of 
Potassium Carbonate H. Conrads, R. Mills, Th. Wrubel, Plasma Sources Science 
and Technology, Vol. 12 (2003), pp. 389-395. You will have to pay a fee to 
download this from the publisher's website. Conrads is in Germany and not an 
employee of BLP. He set up the essential elements of the BLP thermal reactor 
in his lab and varied it, finding an energetic plasma only when the 
essential elements were present.
>
> (Tests of particular substances, at Mills's request, showing particular 
> individual properties, done by fee-for-service laboratories, aren't what 
> I'm talking about, of course.)

If you reject such arbitrarily, then you reject every action by a lab to 
have measurements done with specialized equuipment. And to be consistent, 
experiments done at  great expense in lab A are invalid because lab B can't 
afford the equipment.
>
Mike Carrell 


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To make it a little clearer that I have no beef directed specifically 
against Randall Mills, I should, perhaps, point out that I've actually 
applied some (reasonably) objective criteria here.

There are three things which, when they're _all_ present, raise a 
"Suspicious situation!" red flag for me with regard to a new discovery 
or invention.

1) Does it violate fundamental laws of physics or thermodynamics, as we 
currently understand them?

2) Has there been no independent replication of the results?  (I.e., 
does all the evidence come from exeriments done by the same researcher 
and/or his employees?)  [NB -- A working "device" which is actually on 
the market would be de facto "independent replication", since every 
device owner could see that it worked.]

3) Does the discoverer/inventor have a significant financial stake in 
the outcome of the experiments which support the claim?

Again, it's when _all_ _three_ are present that I tend to turn away and 
look for something else to spend time on.

****************************

Let's take a brief glance at a few other discoveries and see how they 
stack up under these criteria.

a) Polywater -- Didn't necessarily violate any basic physical laws, and 
the researcher had no financial stake in the results AFAIK.  Of course 
it failed on point (2), so it was 1/3, and it didn't look like f**** to 
me.  But it was wrong anyway; so it goes.

b) Special relativity -- When it was discovered it failed point (1) very 
thoroughly.  But the Michelson-Morley experiment and the Sagnac 
experiment, which between them provided strong support for it, were 
replicable.  So it didn't fail (2).  Einstein wasn't making money out of 
the correctness of it, though his reputation was on the line.  Call it 
1.5/3, and it didn't look phony.

c) Cold fusion -- Doesn't necessarily break any laws of physics (though 
it violates what we might call "engineering laws" all over the place but 
so what, those are really just rules of thumb), and it certainly doesn't 
break any laws of thermodynamics, so I'd say it passes (1).  Though no 
single experiment has been duplicated exactly by a second lab AFAIK, 
none the less the general effect has been detected at many labs, so I'd 
say it passes (2).  Not all the researchers who've seen the effect had a 
financial stake in its being "true" so it passes (3), too.  So, CF is 
0/3 and it's pretty clearly on the level.

d) The perpetual motion shyster who was hanging around Vortex a while 
back -- His rolling-ball gadget violated 1st law of thermo and some laws 
of E&M, so it failed (1).  Nobody else made it work, so it failed (2). 
He was selling the things, so it failed (3).  So he was 3/3 and was 
pretty clearly a f****.

e) Randal Mills -- Violates the laws of QM, so it fails (1).  Nobody 
outside his lab has replicated his results AFAIK so it fails (2). He's 
got a major $$$ stake in continuing to show his theory works so it fails 
(3).  So, he's 3/3 and I'm not going to spend a lot of time reading his 
material until something changes.

And that's it.  Simplistic, perhaps, and certainly not "proof" of 
anything, but we all need to do triage on what we're willing to spend 
time on, and this is part of how I do it.

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Mike Carrell wrote:
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" <salaw pobox.com>
> Subject: Re: A historical walk on the wild side
> 
> 
> <snip>, beginning Steve's comments:
> 
>> Well, if a demo product was promised in 6 months, back in 2000, that 
>> doesn't speak well for the current situation... but then, everybody's 
>> optimistic about delivery schedules and a five-year slip in something 
>> like this might be reasonable.
> 
> 
> I don't know about you, but in my 38 years in a large company, 
> witnessing startups, etc., I found it always takes longer than you 
> think, even with established technology. With really new stuff, it takes 
> longer, much longer.
> 
>>
>> But in any case, yes, it's true that I'm very open to negative 
>> criticism of Mills.  His theory requires, among other things, ditching 
>> the uncertainty principle, which cuts pretty deep in an area where 
>> predictions of the current theory have been very well verified.  QM in 
>> general did not exactly fly in with no opposition; it was tested and 
>> found accurate in its domain of application over the objections of 
>> such heavy hitters as Einstein.  When someone starts by saying we need 
>> to chuck it all because it's wrong about such a fundamental thing as 
>> the ground state of hydrogen I don't get a comfortable feeling.
> 
> 
> Well, when I first encountered the idea of the OS, I was not comfortable 
> either, but for me the experiments matter, and the theory will fall into 
> place in due course. Nature speaks in experiments, mere men speak in 
> theory.
> 
>>
>> Now, you may very reasonably accuse me of all sorts of bad bias and of 
>> having a shallow, prejudiced viewpoint as a result of that preceding 
>> paragraph, and perhaps you're right.  But in fact, my unreasoning 
>> knee-jerk reactions, if you would like to characterize them so, go 
>> even deeper than that in this case.
>>
>> Mills has published results which include anomalous results of various 
>> experiments, which prove that conventional physics and/or chemistry 
>> are incorrect in some fundamental ways, while his theory correctly 
>> predicted the results he observed.  But until those experiments have 
>> been replicated by an independent scientist, working from the 
>> published description, without the direct involvement of Mills 
>> himself, I would not say that they have been replicated.  As far as I 
>> know, that hasn't happened. Mills has stockholders, he has investors, 
>> he has pulled in a lot of money with his theory; he is not a 
>> disinterested observer of the results of his experiments.  He has a 
>> lot riding on the results coming out right. Therefore I hesitate to 
>> accept his testimony as to surprising results he's obtained without 
>> solid external coroboration, in the form of independent replication.  
>> Google "Hwang Woo Suk" if you don't get my point.
> 
> 
> This point has been pounded on endlessly on the HSG forum. As stated, it 
> implies that the posted body of work is essentially a work of fiction, 
> or at best carefully selected 'best' results, happy accidents. If it 
> were not that so much hangs on the experiments, they would be readily 
> accepted. Before the BLP labs were set up. Mills paid for experimental 
> work to be done in a number of industrial and university laboratories 
> with enough positiv eresults to keep going. Those reports are no longer 
> at the surface of the website, but are found in earlier editions of 
> Mills' book. If you insist that Mills have absolutely no connection with 
> a test, then the field is thin. Presently BLP is building test equipment 
> for the use of propective partners.
> 
>>
>> To put it bluntly, it would be great if I were eventually proved 
>> wrong, but at this time I don't believe in Mills, nor in the hydrino.  
>> Cold fusion, which has been demonstrated many times over by numerous 
>> researchers, seems far, far more likely to lead somewhere useful.  If 
>> I don't spend time reading Mills' papers, well, that's why.
> 
> 
> I have been engaged in the colf fusion field longer than with BLP and am 
> quite aware of its status. You are correct that the CF effects have been 
> seen by many, and that is hopeful, but note, please, that it has 
> ***not*** convinced anyone official in establishment physics.

Yes, there is a major pathology in mainstream science which isn't new.

Dinosaurs were thought to walk with their legs splayed out for an entire 
generation because that's how the establishment thought they walked, 
never mind what the joints looked like.


> You 
> protest Mills' theory, but there is none for the whole spectrum of 
> CF/LENR/CMNS phenomena.

Au contraire.  There are just two problems (that I can see) with CF: 
How the 2H gets over the coulomb barrier, and how the energy gets out 
without shattering the lattice or otherwise exhibiting itself as big 
lumps of energy.  In an admittedly subjective assessment, those don't 
sound to me like things that need anything more than an _extension_ to 
current theory in order to explain, and that opinion predates my brief 
encounter with Hagelstein's work, which could actually provide such an 
extension.

New things require additional theory.  That's fundamentally different 
from saying existing theory is wrong.


> The whole field is cursed by a lack of 
> reproduceability, especially reproduceability of large effects. The 
> hallmark of the CF reactions is excess heat, and calorimetry is a basic 
> skill  done with great expertise. Mills' water bath calorimetry is an 
> elegant experiment in which it is repeatedly shown that hydrogen can 
> yield 100 times the heat of combustion --  not as much as the nuclear 
> reactions, but very, very useful.
> 
> In terms of organization and devices, BLP is well ahead of the 
> CF/LENR/CMNS field.
> 
> And Steve, if you are familiar with the CF technology, the one paper you 
> should read is Phillips' paper on the water bath calorimeter, as 
> published in the Journal of Applied Physics.

Is this online anywhere?  I'll sniff around for it.


>>
>> So, call me a bigot, call me a fool; be that as it may, I'm convinced 
>> CF is real, and I'm fairly sure Mills's results are not.
> 
> 
> Interesting. You believe CF is 'real' [as I do], yet there is no 
> accepted theory. 

Yeah, I'm not Bob Park :-)   Whether a theory is "accepted" or not makes 
little difference; I just want it to be "plausible".  Without an 
existence proof for the possibility of a theory, I worry.


>You disagree with Mills' theory, audacious as it is, 
> and deny that the experimental results are 'real' because work done in 
> other labs with Mills' advice might somehouw be contaminated.

It depends on how closely involved he was.

If Uri Geller were involved in the replication I'd tend to reject it, too.


> 
>>
>> And if Mills' work _has_ been replicated by an independent lab, by all 
>> means post the links to one or more papers published by his 
>> replicator(s) and I will read them with great interest and I will 
>> happily apologize for being such a pig-headed Bob Park-type.
> 
> 
> Well, try Conrads' paper: Emission in the Deep Vacuum Ultraviolet from a 
> Plasma Formed by Incandescently Heating Hydrogen Gas with Trace Amounts 
> of Potassium Carbonate H. Conrads, R. Mills, Th. Wrubel, Plasma Sources 
> Science and Technology, Vol. 12 (2003), pp. 389-395. You will have to 
> pay a fee to download this from the publisher's website.

OK, thanks, I'll look into it.


> Conrads is in 
> Germany and not an employee of BLP. He set up the essential elements of 
> the BLP thermal reactor in his lab and varied it, finding an energetic 
> plasma only when the essential elements were present.
> 
>>
>> (Tests of particular substances, at Mills's request, showing 
>> particular individual properties, done by fee-for-service 
>> laboratories, aren't what I'm talking about, of course.)
> 
> 
> If you reject such arbitrarily, then you reject every action by a lab to 
> have measurements done with specialized equuipment.

Perhaps I was not clear.  Of course commercial test lab results are part 
of many experiments, and I would generally assume the commercial labs 
are on the up-and-up.  The point is just that commercial test lab 
results on samples provided by Mills do not provide "independent 
replication" of his results (unless, of course, the test result is, in 
itself, without reference to the prior history of the sample, anomalous 
in some way).

The tritium results in CF experiments generally come from test labs. 
They're interesting because they're part of the experimental results.  I 
don't reject them because that sort of result has been achieved by many 
researchers in broadly similar experiments.  HOWEVER, if _just_ _one_ 
researcher had had samples that showed tritium after a CF run, and if 
that researcher had money riding on the outcome, I'd wonder if the 
sample had been spiked before the test lab ever saw it.  And that's all 
I was trying to say here.



> And to be 
> consistent, experiments done at  great expense in lab A are invalid 
> because lab B can't afford the equipment.
> 
>>
> Mike Carrell
> 
> 

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Subject: Re: A historical walk on the wild side
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" <salaw pobox.com>
Subject: Re: A historical walk on the wild side


> To make it a little clearer that I have no beef directed specifically 
> against Randall Mills, I should, perhaps, point out that I've actually 
> applied some (reasonably) objective criteria here.
>
> There are three things which, when they're _all_ present, raise a 
> "Suspicious situation!" red flag for me with regard to a new discovery or 
> invention.
>
> 1) Does it violate fundamental laws of physics or thermodynamics, as we 
> currently understand them?

BLP does not violate thermodynamics: there is a defined fuel, which is 
consumed. It does not violate fundamental laws of physics, but validates 
them [the argument is about what is really "fundamental" or just "familiar"]
>
> 2) Has there been no independent replication of the results?  (I.e., does 
> all the evidence come from exeriments done by the same researcher and/or 
> his employees?)  [NB -- A working "device" which is actually on the market 
> would be de facto "independent replication", since every device owner 
> could see that it worked.]

The degree of "independence" is in question. Mills does not manipulate the 
equipment and take the readongs. Other labs have done experiments funded by 
Mills, some not funded. Due diligence study of Mills' work is under way but 
not publicized.

>
> 3) Does the discoverer/inventor have a significant financial stake in the 
> outcome of the experiments which support the claim?

In BLP's case, of course, but that in itself does not falsify the work.
>
> Again, it's when _all_ _three_ are present that I tend to turn away and 
> look for something else to spend time on.
>
> ****************************
>
> Let's take a brief glance at a few other discoveries and see how they 
> stack up under these criteria.
>
<snip>
>
> c) Cold fusion -- Doesn't necessarily break any laws of physics (though it 
> violates what we might call "engineering laws" all over the place but so 
> what, those are really just rules of thumb), and it certainly doesn't 
> break any laws of thermodynamics, so I'd say it passes (1).  Though no 
> single experiment has been duplicated exactly by a second lab AFAIK, none 
> the less the general effect has been detected at many labs, so I'd say it 
> passes (2).  Not all the researchers who've seen the effect had a 
> financial stake in its being "true" so it passes (3), too.  So, CF is 0/3 
> and it's pretty clearly on the level.

I'd agree with you on these points.
>
> d) The perpetual motion shyster who was hanging around Vortex a while 
> back -- His rolling-ball gadget violated 1st law of thermo and some laws 
> of E&M, so it failed (1).  Nobody else made it work, so it failed (2). He 
> was selling the things, so it failed (3).  So he was 3/3 and was pretty 
> clearly a f****.

You mean Greg Watson. An interesting case, oozing sincerity. Not much money 
on his part. I never got a gadget, and didn't fuss about getting my money 
back.

>
> e) Randal Mills -- Violates the laws of QM, so it fails (1).

Just how does it volate 'laws' of QM and just what are these 'laws?'. The 
attacks on the orbitsphere model are not based on QM.

>Nobody outside his lab has replicated his results AFAIK so it fails (2).

But you said you have not studied the papers, so how do you know? Phillips 
has been a close associate, but his recent papers have been from his post at 
U New Mexico, where he works in a lab supported by LANL. Conrads is in 
Germany. Private, unpublished replications of effects have been seen.

He's
> got a major $$$ stake in continuing to show his theory works so it fails 
> (3).  So, he's 3/3 and I'm not going to spend a lot of time reading his 
> material until something changes.

Is not the hope of economiuc gain the motivation for a lot of technical 
enterprises? Which billionaire do you support wioth your computer " Gates or 
Jobs?
>
> And that's it.  Simplistic, perhaps, and certainly not "proof" of 
> anything, but we all need to do triage on what we're willing to spend time 
> on, and this is part of how I do it.

And so do I, but I based my decisions on experiments and context.

Mike Carrell
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> This Email has been scanned for all viruses by Medford Leas I.T. 
> Department.
>
> 


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Subject: Re: A historical walk on the wild side
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" <salaw pobox.com>
Subject: Re: A historical walk on the wild side


<snip>
> Au contraire.  There are just two problems (that I can see) with CF: How 
> the 2H gets over the coulomb barrier, and how the energy gets out without 
> shattering the lattice or otherwise exhibiting itself as big lumps of 
> energy.  In an admittedly subjective assessment, those don't sound to me 
> like things that need anything more than an _extension_ to current theory 
> in order to explain, and that opinion predates my brief encounter with 
> Hagelstein's work, which could actually provide such an extension.
>
> New things require additional theory.  That's fundamentally different from 
> saying existing theory is wrong.

The Coulomb barrier is an embedded concept, and a lot of the theory is how 
to get around it, including Hagelestein and Takahasi. If you look at HSG, 
John Barchek has been nibbling at -- actually quoting notable phyisicists --  
problems with SQM. Einstein does not make Newton wrong, Newton becomes a 
special case. Mills goes to great lengths to address major observational 
issues into CQM; whether he is successful or not I will leave to others.
>
>
<snip>
>> And Steve, if you are familiar with the CF technology, the one paper you 
>> should read is Phillips' paper on the water bath calorimeter, as 
>> published in the Journal of Applied Physics.
>
> Is this online anywhere?  I'll sniff around for it.

It is available for a $20 fee from the American Institue of Physics. The 
paper was once free on the BLP website, but since it was accepted for 
publication by JAP, copyright control has passed to them. v. 56, No. 6, 15 
Sept 2004, Phillips, Mills, Chen "Water bath caorimetric study of excess 
heat generation of "resonant transfer" plasmas".
>
<snip>
> Yeah, I'm not Bob Park :-)   Whether a theory is "accepted" or not makes 
> little difference; I just want it to be "plausible".  Without an existence 
> proof for the possibility of a theory, I worry.

Yet you have apparently refused to look at the BLP experimental evidence. 
Those experiments do not depend on CQM, although CQM led Mills to look for 
the catalysts that produce the reactions with hydrogen. There are simple 
rules for selecting catalysts. K+ is a catalyst, but Na+ is not, and the 
rule does not depend on CQM.
>
>
>>You disagree with Mills' theory, audacious as it is, and deny that the 
>>experimental results are 'real' because work done in other labs with 
>>Mills' advice might somehouw be contaminated.
>
> It depends on how closely involved he was.

In some cases, as with the Conrads paper, he may have given advice, and 
professional courtesy would require that he be included as an author. No 
evidence that Mills was in the lab fiddling with the dials. Even with the 
posted BLP experiments, common sense says Mills directs the work but 
others -- PhDs -- do the work.

>
> If Uri Geller were involved in the replication I'd tend to reject it, too.

Well, yes, but the degree of involvement is the criterion. If you are Randi, 
you know all the tricks of misdirection. But if someone attempts a 
'replication' but actually does something else because he 'knows better', 
does that count?
>
<snip>
>>
>> Well, try Conrads' paper: Emission in the Deep Vacuum Ultraviolet from a 
>> Plasma Formed by Incandescently Heating Hydrogen Gas with Trace Amounts 
>> of Potassium Carbonate H. Conrads, R. Mills, Th. Wrubel, Plasma Sources 
>> Science and Technology, Vol. 12 (2003), pp. 389-395. You will have to pay 
>> a fee to download this from the publisher's website.
>
> OK, thanks, I'll look into it.

To put the Conrads' work in perspective, go to the BLP website and go to 
Process/Key to References. Just below the line is an illustration of the BLP 
thermal reactor with some thumbnails which will enlarge to give different 
views. Conrads used the essential elements -- a hot iron surface to 
dissociat H2 to 2H, a titanium surface to dissociate potassium carbonate, 
and saw the hot plasma. Using sodium carbonate, removing the titanium, 
removing the iron, and the plasma does not appear.
>
>
<snip>

> Perhaps I was not clear.  Of course commercial test lab results are part 
> of many experiments, and I would generally assume the commercial labs are 
> on the up-and-up.  The point is just that commercial test lab results on 
> samples provided by Mills do not provide "independent replication" of his 
> results (unless, of course, the test result is, in itself, without 
> reference to the prior history of the sample, anomalous in some way).

1) Many of the early experiments were essentially "build some equipment this 
way, run it and tell me what you get". 2) The tests of the hydrino-bearing 
compounds were, I believe, anomalous in some way.
>
> The tritium results in CF experiments generally come from test labs. 
> They're interesting because they're part of the experimental results.  I 
> don't reject them because that sort of result has been achieved by many 
> researchers in broadly similar experiments.  HOWEVER, if _just_ _one_ 
> researcher had had samples that showed tritium after a CF run, and if that 
> researcher had money riding on the outcome, I'd wonder if the sample had 
> been spiked before the test lab ever saw it.  And that's all I was trying 
> to say here.

Of course, and that is almost what Taubes said in his book. Not quite, but 
close enough for the casual reader to assume that the tritium results were 
spiked. tritium has been found by others, so Taubes is creating 
disinformation which others are willing to believe.

Because of all that is riding on Mills' work, every test is applied with 
great severity. It is too easy for someone to write "I wonder about...." 
without actual study of the experiment. I have been at pains to subject such 
criticism to the same scrutiny demanded of Mills. What I find is that the 
criticism of experiments is often carelss and glib. Such as been the history 
of CF as well.

Mike Carrell


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It's free here:

http://web.archive.org/web/20040204161320/www.blacklightpower.com/pdf/tec
hnical/CalorimetrySpecial061603.pdf

or

http://tinyurl.com/7v6ov

I have taken the liberty to email a copy to Mr. Lawrence

Thank you Mr. Peabody!

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Carrell

It is available for a $20 fee from the American Institue of Physics. 
The paper was once free on the BLP website, but since it was accepted 
for publication by JAP, copyright control has passed to them. v. 56, 
No. 6, 15 Sept 2004, Phillips, Mills, Chen "Water bath caorimetric 
study of excess heat generation of "resonant transfer" plasmas". 
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From: Horace Heffner <hheffner mtaonline.net>
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Pipeline Engineering
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 11:30:39 -0900
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On Dec 27, 2005, at 5:02 AM, hohlrauml6d netscape.net wrote:

> Google returns 150,000 hits on the exact phrase "hydrogen  
> research".  There is a great deal of research underway in both the  
> public:
>
> http://www.nrel.gov/programs/hydrogen.html
>
> http://www.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/production/doe_rd.html
>
> and private sectors:
>
> http://www.switch2hydrogen.com/h2new.htm
>
> The last reference had a catastrophic failure of one of their test  
> vehicles due to embrittlement.  I hope it wasn't that beautiful  
> Corvette.  What is interesting is their smart tank storage technology.
>
> A visit to the parent company site:
>
> http://www.unitednuclear.com/supplies.htm
>
> has a nice collection of toys including uranium available online.

These references seem to support *my* point that insufficient  
attention is being payed to transmission systems.  Bottling or  
packaging gas is not a serious long distance transport option.  There  
seems to be a general obliviousness with regard to the lead time  
necessary to do the job right.  I could be wrong, but from what I've  
seen so far, the US does not seem to be seriously in the pipeline  
game, and thus not seriously in the hydrogen economy game.  The  
efforts in this regard are international.

The only current effort I noticed in the above references was mention  
of a study of pipe steels at Oakridge:

http://www.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/production/ 
fuel_infrastructure.html


There are hydrogen pipelines in existence, but they operate at  
pressures (e.g. 20 bar) way below those that pipeline for a hydrogen  
economy would have to operate.  They are dwarfed in capacity  by the  
gas transmission system in the US that will have to eventually be  
replaced, unless coversion of hydrogen to methane is adopted as the  
standard for land transport.

http://www.bellona.no/en/energy/hydrogen/report_6-2002/22915.html


An international effort is being made to bring about The  
International Renewable Hydrogen Transmission Demonstration Facility  
(IRHTDF):

http://www.hydrogennow.org/Facts/Pipeline/H2Pipeline.htm

http://www.hydrogennow.org/Facts/Pipeline/Leighty/WEC-Sydney- 
Sept04-30Apr-Final-Rev12May.pdf

Page 2 quote:
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  
- - - - - - - - - -
3. Gaseous hydrogen (GH2) pipelines

A 1998 NREL study xi shows that, at large-scale (> 1 GW) and long  
distance (> 500 km),
GH2 pipeline is the lowest-cost way to transport H2.  A new UC Davis  
study confirms; see Figure II xii.
Although industry has been safely pipelining H2 for decades, no  
pipeline system has been designed
and optimized for large-scale, long-distance, cross-country  
transmission of diverse, dispersed, time-
varying renewable sources, at minimum cost, and providing energy  
storage.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  
- - - - - - - - - -

This group proposes a *pilot* pipeline.  This means a pipeline with  
actual use - thus exposure to catastrophic consequences.    This is  
clearly a well meaning group, but some things indicate a lack of  
experience. For example, the choice for an eventual energy transport  
route through the Aleutians on page 6 makes no sense?  (This is not  
the pilot.)  There seems to be a general lack of awareness of the  
complexities involved in building, maintaining and operating high  
pressure systems.  This is evidenced by the stated expectation of  
using existing methane systems.

In any event, much is made of the glitz of using hydrogen in  
vehicles, but very little seems to be happening to actually get us to  
a true hydrogen economy.  If a true hydrogen economy emerges it will  
probably happen in Europe or the Far East.

Horace Heffner


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During World War 2 a lot of cars in Britain ran on coal gas which, 
if I remember my school chemistry correctly, is a mixture of 
hydrogen and carbon monoxide. I imagine these cars must have 
suffered from hydrogen embrittlement - though since the 
phenomena wasn't well known at the time I presume people put 
failures down to normal wear and tear.

Frank Grimer







At 09:02 am 27/12/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>Google returns 150,000 hits on the exact phrase "hydrogen research".  
>There is a great deal of research underway in both the public:
>
>http://www.nrel.gov/programs/hydrogen.html
>
>http://www.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/production/doe_rd.html
>
>and private sectors:
>
>http://www.switch2hydrogen.com/h2new.htm
>
>The last reference had a catastrophic failure of one of their test 
>vehicles due to embrittlement.  I hope it wasn't that beautiful 
>Corvette.  What is interesting is their smart tank storage technology.
>
>A visit to the parent company site:
>
>http://www.unitednuclear.com/supplies.htm
>
>has a nice collection of toys including uranium available online.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Horace Heffner
>
>A hydrogen "economy" wherein hydrogen is produced at filling stations, 
>or other local area places of demand, provides no energy source.
>
>___________________________________________________
>Try the New Netscape Mail Today!
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>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 27 13:04:09 2005
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Sorry, Mr. Heffner, I did not intend to get you riled.  My point is 
that there is a process on-going to set the standards for H2 pipelines. 
  We are a far cry from building the first high volume H2 transport 
system; but, plenty of work is underway.  ASME has a standards 
committee dedicated to H2 transport.  But, I think your point that the 
present source for H2, methane, is trading one demon for another.  Goes 
to show that we're still thinking inside the box.  Our best bet today 
is likely fission to crack water.

Speaking of methane, I recently read that it is unlikely that the 
source of that gas on Mars is geologic.  ;-)


-----Original Message-----
From: Horace Heffner

In any event, much is made of the glitz of using hydrogen in vehicles, 
but very little seems to be happening to actually get us to a true 
hydrogen economy. If a true hydrogen economy emerges it will probably 
happen in Europe or the Far East. 
 
Horace Heffner 
 


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hohlrauml6d netscape.net wrote:

>Sorry, Mr. Heffner, I did not intend to get you riled.  My point is 
>that there is a process on-going to set the standards for H2 
>pipelines.  We are a far cry from building the first high volume H2 
>transport system; but, plenty of work is underway.

According to this book: P. Hoffman, "Tomorrow's Energy," (MIT Press, 
2001), the first large scale hydrogen distribution pipeline was built 
in the 1930 in the Ruhr valley. It is now 130 miles long, and it 
transports 10.6 billion cubic feet of hydrogen gas per year. It has 
never suffered from a major accident.

- Jed


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From: Horace Heffner <hheffner mtaonline.net>
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Pipeline Engineering
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 12:41:56 -0900
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On Dec 27, 2005, at 12:03 PM, hohlrauml6d netscape.net wrote:

> Sorry, Mr. Heffner, I did not intend to get you riled.

I am not riled.  I very very seldom get riled, and even if so I don't  
post based on emotions.  I like facts, data and logic.  I like  
physics, and don't have time for dealing with the emotional.   
Actually, I don't even have time for physics lately, so will bail out  
soon.  I have found that clarity is greatly enhanced by not mincing  
words and qualifying things.  For example, I should qualify every  
thought of mine with the disclaimer that this opinion comes from one  
whose only academic qualification is an introductory one quarter  
hour's credit in a freshman mechanics course.  That would get  
boring.  Also, I think facts, if they are facts, speak for  
themselves.  They don't need credentials.  The diplomatic problem I  
have, though, is writing style.  I have never been a good writer, and  
my focus of the last decade has been on clarity and brevity - and  
even that I do not achieve well, but I keep trying.  I am not a  
diplomatic person, so that does not help either.  I have found that  
unfortunately I have to for the most part avoid humor because the  
risk of a negative misinterpretation is high.  If I post something  
that looks offensive, please give me the benefit of the doubt that it  
was not meant to be offensive or argumentative in other than a  
logical sense.  If I want to be offensive, I typically leave little  
doubt!  I can only think of a few occasions where that happened and  
it only happens when I feel there may be a charlatan in our midst.   
Even then, I have generally had a sense of humor as I wrote, not  
feelings of anger.

BTW, please call me Horace.


> My point is that there is a process on-going to set the standards  
> for H2 pipelines.  We are a far cry from building the first high  
> volume H2 transport system; but, plenty of work is underway.  ASME  
> has a standards committee dedicated to H2 transport.  But, I think  
> your point that the present source for H2, methane, is trading one  
> demon for another.  Goes to show that we're still thinking inside  
> the box.  Our best bet today is likely fission to crack water.

While I agree that for now the US needs every source it can muster,  
even nuclear, ultimately the cheap source is renewables. Consider:

    Table 1 - Current energy plant capital cost in $/W

    Gas turbine  0.5
    Wind         2.0
    Solar tower  2.5
    Nuclear      6.0


    Table 2 - Current energy plant capital cost
              (in $ per MBtu/yr, or $B per quad/yr)

    Gas turbine  17
    Wind         67
    Solar tower  83
    Nuclear     200

>
> Speaking of methane, I recently read that it is unlikely that the  
> source of that gas on Mars is geologic.  ;-)
>

Yep, it must be the belching season.  I'll bet the atmospheric  
sulfide content is off the charts.  I don't think I'd want to be a  
Mars astronaut breathing compressed Mars atmosphere.  8^)

Horace Heffner

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From: Horace Heffner <hheffner mtaonline.net>
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Pipeline Engineering
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 12:51:57 -0900
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On Dec 27, 2005, at 12:14 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> hohlrauml6d netscape.net wrote:
>
>> Sorry, Mr. Heffner, I did not intend to get you riled.  My point  
>> is that there is a process on-going to set the standards for H2  
>> pipelines.  We are a far cry from building the first high volume  
>> H2 transport system; but, plenty of work is underway.
>
> According to this book: P. Hoffman, "Tomorrow's Energy," (MIT  
> Press, 2001), the first large scale hydrogen distribution pipeline  
> was built in the 1930 in the Ruhr valley. It is now 130 miles long,  
> and it transports 10.6 billion cubic feet of hydrogen gas per year.  
> It has never suffered from a major accident.
>

A Bcf/yr is a nominal amount, and the 300 psi operating pressure is  
far from economic for typical US trade distances and volumes.  The  
lack of accidents is significant, but the technological knowledge  
gained there has to be codified and then proven viable and sufficient  
for high pressure transmission.

Horace Heffner

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From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
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Subject: 10 years have past since PowerGen 95
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-------------------------------1135724204
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Ten years has passed since CETI revealed its 10 KW cold fusion cell at  Power 
Gen 95.  
I was there.  I was very hopeful; so was Jed.  I thought then,  that by now 
the world would be powered by cold fusion.  I wrote company  memorandums 
expressing this view.  A year later I was downsized.   G. Mallove and H. Fox 
published "We have liftoff!".
 
Nothing much happened.  No prototypes are on the market.  My  optimism has 
faded, Something must be amiss.  
 
 
 
 
Frank Znidarsic

-------------------------------1135724204
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3DUS-ASCII">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1479" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY id=3Drole_body style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY:=20=
Arial"=20
bottomMargin=3D7 leftMargin=3D7 topMargin=3D7 rightMargin=3D7><FONT id=3Drol=
e_document=20
face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D2>
<DIV>Ten years has passed since CETI revealed its 10 KW cold fusion cell at=20
Power Gen 95.&nbsp; </DIV>
<DIV>I was there.&nbsp; I was very hopeful; so was Jed. &nbsp;I thought then=
,=20
that by now the world would be powered by cold fusion.&nbsp; I wrote company=
=20
memorandums expressing this view.&nbsp;&nbsp;A year later I was downsized.&n=
bsp;=20
&nbsp;G. Mallove and H.&nbsp;Fox published "We have liftoff!".</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Nothing much happened.&nbsp; No prototypes are on the market.&nbsp; My=20
optimism has faded, Something must be amiss.&nbsp; </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Frank Znidarsic</DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>

-------------------------------1135724204--

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Subject: Re: 10 years have past since PowerGen 95
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Hi Frank,=20
I take it you were convinced of CETI technology. Even if something works =
doesn't mean it will sell.
I am fond of discounting the old adage of " make a better mousetrap and =
peopel will beat down your door"
That's not true.. true is .. show me a person that can sell mousetraps =
and I can make anything  you can sell.=20
CF is sitting on the runway with the engine getting cold. It will take =
somebody that can sell what they can make. The sale will be in the face =
of skeptics and opposition. Ironically,perhaps one of the biggest =
obstacles is other CF research. The researchers would rather fail than =
share what progress they have made. Funny the market is larger than all =
the brainpower.
Another large obstacle is phoney baloney "black box" inventions that can =
always find a source of funding and a later IPO. This is happening in =
Nano and genome out the kazoo. Now some of these genome and nano =
chickens are coming home to roost. May be a few CF IPO's take a dive =
also. This should muddy up the water more.
Richard
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com=20
  To: vortex-l eskimo.com=20
  Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2005 4:56 PM
  Subject: 10 years have past since PowerGen 95


  Ten years has passed since CETI revealed its 10 KW cold fusion cell at =
Power Gen 95. =20
  I was there.  I was very hopeful; so was Jed.  I thought then, that by =
now the world would be powered by cold fusion.  I wrote company =
memorandums expressing this view.  A year later I was downsized.   G. =
Mallove and H. Fox published "We have liftoff!".

  Nothing much happened.  No prototypes are on the market.  My optimism =
has faded, Something must be amiss. =20




  Frank Znidarsic
------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C60B0F.4833B100
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2802" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY id=3Drole_body style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #000000; =
FONT-FAMILY: Arial"=20
bottomMargin=3D7 bgColor=3D#ffffff leftMargin=3D7 topMargin=3D7 =
rightMargin=3D7>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana>Hi Frank, </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana>I take it you were convinced of CETI =
technology. Even if=20
something works doesn't mean it will sell.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana>I am fond of discounting the old adage of " =
make a=20
better mousetrap and peopel will beat down your door"</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana>That's not true.. true is .. show me a person =
that can=20
sell mousetraps and I can make&nbsp;anything &nbsp;you can sell. =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana>CF is sitting on the runway with the engine =
getting=20
cold. It will take somebody that can sell what they can make. The sale =
will be=20
in the face of skeptics and opposition. Ironically,perhaps one of the =
biggest=20
obstacles is other CF research. The researchers would rather fail than =
share=20
what progress they have made. Funny the market is larger than all the=20
brainpower.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana>Another large obstacle is phoney baloney =
"black box"=20
inventions that can always find a source of funding and a later IPO. =
This is=20
happening in Nano and genome out the kazoo. Now some of these genome and =
nano=20
chickens are coming home to roost. May be a few CF IPO's take a dive =
also. This=20
should muddy up the water more.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana>Richard</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3DFZNIDARSIC aol.com=20
  href=3D"mailto:FZNIDARSIC aol.com">FZNIDARSIC@aol.com</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dvortex-l eskimo.com=20
  href=3D"mailto:vortex-l eskimo.com">vortex-l@eskimo.com</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, December 27, =
2005 4:56=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> 10 years have past =
since=20
  PowerGen 95</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV><FONT id=3Drole_document face=3DArial color=3D#000000 =
size=3D2>
  <DIV>Ten years has passed since CETI revealed its 10 KW cold fusion =
cell at=20
  Power Gen 95.&nbsp; </DIV>
  <DIV>I was there.&nbsp; I was very hopeful; so was Jed. &nbsp;I =
thought then,=20
  that by now the world would be powered by cold fusion.&nbsp; I wrote =
company=20
  memorandums expressing this view.&nbsp;&nbsp;A year later I was=20
  downsized.&nbsp; &nbsp;G. Mallove and H.&nbsp;Fox published "We have=20
  liftoff!".</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Nothing much happened.&nbsp; No prototypes are on the =
market.&nbsp; My=20
  optimism has faded, Something must be amiss.&nbsp; </DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Frank Znidarsic</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C60B0F.4833B100--


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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
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In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Tue, 27 Dec 2005 00:58:02
-0900:
Hi Horace,
[snip]

After Bill's post, and before mine, you posted two messages. In
the first, you wrote:-
--------------------------------------------------------------
"My opinion is the glow is probably caused by recombination and
some  
other effects noted in the above pdf.  Could of course be quite  
wrong.  Could be a hole-electron annihilation at the surface of a
film deposited on the electrode for example.   It could be hole  
conducting metals, e.g. Zn, would need no film at all.  Could also
be  
the mechanism for CaO or phosphate electrolytes differs from the  
above too.  I did not follow up on this to pin it down.  I
diverted  
my attention to some exiting inertial drive projects for a long
time  
and had to interrupt even that for personal reasons for many
months.   
I terribly miss doing scientific things."
----------------------------------------------------------------

 and referred to http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/BlueAEH.pdf.

In the second you wrote:-
----------------------------------------------------------------
As food for thought, you might also check out:

    <http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/BlueAEH.pdf>

Even though the blue glow is an anode effect, proton involvement
is  
highly likely.  There are some notes in the above pdf about proton
tunneling that may be relevant.  A wild speculation is that free  
protons are stripped of electrons at the anode, probably have the
highest concentration there, and may in rarely and briefly
existing  
pairs have the ability to tunnel as pairs into seed locations,
like  
free electrons.

----------------------------------------------------------------

I didn't initially read all of the document at the link which you
posted, primarily because it starts off talking about your Atomic
Expansion Hypothesis, which I don't believe.

Therefore, at first glance neither of your posts appeared to
mention what I suspected was the cause of the blue glow, hence I
posted it to the list in a succinct form.

Now, upon a closer (yet still incomplete) reading of your
reference document I come across the sentence:-

"Similarly, in a sufficiently high gradient, electrons
may be stripped off of OH- radicals leaving OH molecules. The
electrons so removed then, in the high electrostatic field, blast
through the water until hitting H3O+ radicals and then freeing the
hydrogen, causing atomic expansion."

..which is almost what I said in my post. 

I'm afraid this is more a case of "great minds" thinking alike
than plagiarism. ;)

>
>On Dec 19, 2005, at 12:33 PM, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>
>
>> If the electrodes do indeed form diodes, and the glow occurs
>> during reverse bias, then that is when a high voltage falls across
>> a very thin chemical layer. The electron leakage current could be
>> sufficiently accelerated to produce energetic electrons capable of
>> exciting high energy (i.e. blue) transitions within the atoms.
>
>When I read this I was very concerned that this is what I had been  
>saying, so why the need here to say it again?  Did I not post  
>something?  However, between preparing stuff for the web site,  
>private exchanges, and posting some thoughts as they developed, I can  
>see that it is not at all clear exactly what I have been saying.     
>At any rate, a hopefully more coherent exposition can be found at:
>
><http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/GlowExper.pdf>
>
>
>Horace Heffner
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

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Mike Carrell wrote:
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" <salaw pobox.com>
> Subject: Re: A historical walk on the wild side
> 
> 
>> To make it a little clearer that I have no beef directed specifically 
>> against Randall Mills, I should, perhaps, point out that I've actually 
>> applied some (reasonably) objective criteria here.
>>
>> There are three things which, when they're _all_ present, raise a 
>> "Suspicious situation!" red flag for me with regard to a new discovery 
>> or invention.
>>
>> 1) Does it violate fundamental laws of physics or thermodynamics, as 
>> we currently understand them?
> 
> 
> BLP does not violate thermodynamics: there is a defined fuel, which is 
> consumed.

Right.

> It does not violate fundamental laws of physics, but validates 
> them [the argument is about what is really "fundamental" or just 
> "familiar"]

Um ... I'm a little rusty on QM but claiming to have found sub-ground 
states for H is a pretty serious whack to the basic laws.  In 
particular, IIRC, below-ground H states violate the uncertainty 
principle: the electron's wave function isn't allowed to be as localized 
as those states would require it to be.

Last time this came up I was led believe that Mills isn't happy with the 
uncertainty principle... be that as it may, this seems to me like a 
violation of fundamental physical law as currently understood.  If he's 
right, a lot of current theory will be stood on its head.


>> 2) Has there been no independent replication of the results?  (I.e., 
>> does all the evidence come from exeriments done by the same researcher 
>> and/or his employees?)  [NB -- A working "device" which is actually on 
>> the market would be de facto "independent replication", since every 
>> device owner could see that it worked.]
> 
> 
> The degree of "independence" is in question. Mills does not manipulate 
> the equipment and take the readongs. Other labs have done experiments 
> funded by Mills, some not funded. Due diligence study of Mills' work is 
> under way but not publicized.
> 
>>
>> 3) Does the discoverer/inventor have a significant financial stake in 
>> the outcome of the experiments which support the claim?
> 
> 
> In BLP's case, of course, but that in itself does not falsify the work.
> 
>>
>> Again, it's when _all_ _three_ are present that I tend to turn away 
>> and look for something else to spend time on.
>>
>> ****************************
>>
>> Let's take a brief glance at a few other discoveries and see how they 
>> stack up under these criteria.
>>
> <snip>
> 
>>
>> c) Cold fusion -- Doesn't necessarily break any laws of physics 
>> (though it violates what we might call "engineering laws" all over the 
>> place but so what, those are really just rules of thumb), and it 
>> certainly doesn't break any laws of thermodynamics, so I'd say it 
>> passes (1).  Though no single experiment has been duplicated exactly 
>> by a second lab AFAIK, none the less the general effect has been 
>> detected at many labs, so I'd say it passes (2).  Not all the 
>> researchers who've seen the effect had a financial stake in its being 
>> "true" so it passes (3), too.  So, CF is 0/3 and it's pretty clearly 
>> on the level.
> 
> 
> I'd agree with you on these points.
> 
>>
>> d) The perpetual motion shyster who was hanging around Vortex a while 
>> back -- His rolling-ball gadget violated 1st law of thermo and some 
>> laws of E&M, so it failed (1).  Nobody else made it work, so it failed 
>> (2). He was selling the things, so it failed (3).  So he was 3/3 and 
>> was pretty clearly a f****.
> 
> 
> You mean Greg Watson. An interesting case, oozing sincerity.

Yeah, that's right.  But there was a lot wrong with Greg beyond the 
basic fact he was peddling perpetual motion machines of the first kind. 
  He reminded me strongly of someone I knew when I was growing up, right 
up to and including the mysteriously missing video which would have 
proved his claims had it ever actually existed.

Whatever one may say about Mills, good or bad, he's not in Greg's class, 
and I really shouldn't have suggested he was.


> Not much 
> money on his part.
> I never got a gadget, and didn't fuss about getting 
> my money back.
> 
>>
>> e) Randal Mills -- Violates the laws of QM, so it fails (1).
> 
> 
> Just how does it volate 'laws' of QM and just what are these 'laws?'. 
> The attacks on the orbitsphere model are not based on QM.

Again, I may be off base, but I believe that claiming to have found an 
arbitrary chain of sub-ground states for hydrogen violates the 
uncertainty principle and that's pretty fundamental.


> 
>> Nobody outside his lab has replicated his results AFAIK so it fails (2).
> 
> 
> But you said you have not studied the papers, so how do you know?

Say what?

Replications would not be in Mills's papers, they'd be published by 
outside sources.  Reading a paper of his will not tell me if someone 
else subsequently duplicated the result discussed in that paper.

As to how I know, I don't, I'm basing this on what I've read on Vortex 
and what I haven't read anyplace else, which is any reference to anyone 
replicating his work.


> Phillips has been a close associate, but his recent papers have been 
> from his post at U New Mexico, where he works in a lab supported by 
> LANL. Conrads is in Germany. Private, unpublished replications of 
> effects have been seen.

Interesting!


> He's
> 
>> got a major $$$ stake in continuing to show his theory works so it 
>> fails (3).  So, he's 3/3 and I'm not going to spend a lot of time 
>> reading his material until something changes.
> 
> 
> Is not the hope of economiuc gain the motivation for a lot of technical 
> enterprises? Which billionaire do you support wioth your computer " 
> Gates or Jobs?

Financial interest in showing a particular result doesn't invalidate 
that result, but it introduces a motive to cheat.

As I'm sure you understand.

And in any case Gates and Jobs were not scientists and there was never 
an issue of any "experiment" carried out by them.  (Gates wasn't even an 
engineer, as I understand it, just a marketing guy.  A brilliant 
marketing guy, I grant you.)  Jobs started out by producing products 
using off-the-shelf components (except for the power supply, which was 
innovative), and Gates started out peddling a Basic interpreter and a 
primitive operating system to IBM and followed up with amazing 
negotiating skill to parley that wedge into a world empire.  This is all 
quite different from producing an unexpected result and claiming it as 
support for a new theory, and then going on to claim the new theory can 
be harnessed to make profitable products some time in the future, and 
then inviting in investors to support further experiments, which 
continue to show positive results and hence continue to draw in new 
investment money without obviously leading to a product.


>> And that's it.  Simplistic, perhaps, and certainly not "proof" of 
>> anything, but we all need to do triage on what we're willing to spend 
>> time on, and this is part of how I do it.
> 
> 
> And so do I, but I based my decisions on experiments and context.

Right, you sent money to Greg...  I would like to spend more time 
investigating all the intellectual byways but I haven't got enough of 
it, so I am slightly more picky about the paths I wander down.

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hohlrauml6d netscape.net wrote:
> It's free here:
> 
> http://web.archive.org/web/20040204161320/www.blacklightpower.com/pdf/tec
> hnical/CalorimetrySpecial061603.pdf

Thank you very much!  I got a copy, no problem.


> 
> or
> 
> http://tinyurl.com/7v6ov
> 
> I have taken the liberty to email a copy to Mr. Lawrence

I do not seem to have received it :-(

It is possible that it was spam-trapped by POBox.  They have a very good 
track record -- just one other false positive to date.  But, the 
previous false positive was also direct email from someone on Vortex.


> 
> Thank you Mr. Peabody!
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mike Carrell
> 
> It is available for a $20 fee from the American Institue of Physics. The 
> paper was once free on the BLP website, but since it was accepted for 
> publication by JAP, copyright control has passed to them. v. 56, No. 6, 
> 15 Sept 2004, Phillips, Mills, Chen "Water bath caorimetric study of 
> excess heat generation of "resonant transfer" plasmas". 
> ___________________________________________________
> Try the New Netscape Mail Today!
> Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List
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> 

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The existence of zero point energy follows directly from the 
uncertainty principle.  I know Mills dismisses ZPE outright; so, I 
gather he cares not for Heisenberg.  I wonder what Randell thinks 
happens at absolute zero?

-----Original Message-----
From: Stephen A. Lawrence
 
Again, I may be off base, but I believe that claiming to have found an 
arbitrary chain of sub-ground states for hydrogen violates the 
uncertainty principle and that's pretty fundamental. 

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On Dec 28, 2005, at 4:29 AM, hohlrauml6d netscape.net wrote:

> The existence of zero point energy follows directly from the  
> uncertainty principle.  I know Mills dismisses ZPE outright; so, I  
> gather he cares not for Heisenberg.  I wonder what Randell thinks  
> happens at absolute zero?

It seems Heisenberg is indeed a problem with regard to scrunching the  
electron wave packet into the tiny hydrino sized volumes, at least  
from a Bohr perspective.

Summary from an old post:

I think this squeezing of the electron, i.e. rolling it up to fit  
into a more compact volume, requires energy which is not available.   
This energy is required by the Heisenberg principle. The smaller the  
region a particle is confined to, the more the uncertainty on its  
energy.  If the uncertainty is large, that means you can sample such  
particles and on average take a large amount of energy from them.   
There must be an antecedent to the energy, or COE is violated.  There  
is no such antecedent, even on a statistical basis, in that the  
energy is already all accounted for.  The uncertainty grows to hugely  
disproportionate values compared to the energy of the electron in its  
orbital. The following calculation, from a simplified Bohr  
perspective, hopefully demonstrates this fact.

The kinetic energy K of an electron in Bohr orbit radius r is given by:

    K = q^2/((8Pi)(e0)(r)) = (1/2)(m)(v^2)

So speed v is:

    v = (q^2/((4pi)(e0)(r)(m))^0.5

and momentum is thus ~ 1/r:

    p = mv = ((m)(q^2)/(4(pi)e0(r))^0.5

Given that the radius is quantized to:

    r = (n^2) ((h^2)(e0))/((pi)(q^2)(m)),  for n = 1,2,3, ...
                                       (or in Mills' case: n = 1/2,  
1/3, ...)
we have:

    v = [q^2/(2(e0)(h))]  (1/n) = [q^2/(2(e0)(h)(n))]

instead of the Mills velocity:

    v = [q^2/(2(e0)(h))]  1/(n^0.5),  for n = 1/2,1/3,1/4, ...


Uncertainty of momentum (delta mv) for a particle (electron)  
constrained by distance delta x is given by Heisenberg as:

    delta mv = h/(2 Pi delta x)

but 2r acts as our delta x because the electron is contained within  
the orbitsphere, so we have (substituting 2r for delta x in the above):

    delta mv = h/(2 Pi [ 2 (n^2) ((h^2)(e0))/((pi)(q^2)(m)) ] )

    delta mv = [h (q^2)(m)] / [4 (n^2)(h^2)(e0)]

    delta mv = (q^2)(m) / [4 (n^2)(h)(e0)]

and an uncertainty in velocity delta v:

    delta v = (q^2) / (4 (n^2)(h)(e0))

So now the question is how does delta v compare to v?  That is to say  
is the uncertainty on v small in comparison to v?  To see, let's look  
at the ratio:

    (delta v)/v = [ (q^2) / (4 (n^2)(h)(e0)) ] / [q^2/(2(e0)(h)(n))]

    (delta v)/v = [(2)(e0)(h)(n)] / [(4)(n^2)(h)(e0)]

    (delta v)/v = [(2)(n)] / [4 (n^2)]

    (delta v)/v = 1 / (2n)

However, with normal (non-Mills) orbitals, n is a whole number, so  
delta v remains small with respect to v.  There is not the large  
imbalance which is the subject of discussion here, which occurs  
because (1) n is a fraction, and (2) the exponents in the Mills  
equations differ such that as n goes to increasingly lower values,  
i.e. n = 1/x as x gets large, we have

    delta v = (1/2) (x^0.5) v

for Mill's, and the resulting energy gets way out of whack in states  
other than n=1.

The above relations for K, v, p  remain valid for inner electrons in  
the Bohr or Mills model (ignoring relativistic effects).  With n = 1  
in these inner states, it appears r is valid for either model, thus  
either model works fine for the inner electrons.  Neither then  
violates Heisenberg.  It is only the hypothesized (by Mills)  
fractional quantum states that violate Heisenberg.  At least that's  
the way it appears to me.

I should also note that analysis from this perspective should have a  
dramatic effect on feasible catalysts, energy availability, and  
potential device design.

Horace Heffner

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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: 10 years have past since PowerGen 95
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FZNIDARSIC aol.com wrote:

>Ten years has passed since CETI revealed its 10 KW cold fusion cell 
>at Power Gen 95.  . . .

It was 1 kW.


>Nothing much happened.  No prototypes are on the market.  My 
>optimism has faded, Something must be amiss.

My impression is that Patterson lost heart after his grandson Reding 
died suddenly. (Reding was in charge of the company.) Also Patterson 
is old and probably does not have the energy to pursue this.

- Jed


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From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
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Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 11:33:00 EST
Subject: 10 years have past since PowerGen 95
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I have many pictures of this event in December or 95 on my web site.   I have 
pictures of Paterson, Rothwell, Miley, and more.  The video clip is  to large 
and does not play.
 
_http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapter1.html_ 
(http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapter1.html) 
 
Miley, Jed, Cravens, Goldies, the Redings, Passell, and I were there.   We 
all had great hope. I look older now.  Ten years is a material amount of  time 
in the human life time.  Jim Reding and G. Mallove have passed  on.
 
I dreamed of a career in new energy. This was not to be.  I'm now  working 
extended hours as contract start up engineer on coal fired power  plant in 
Morresville North Carolina.  I've grown tired of submitting papers  that were 
insultingly rejected.
 
Things have not turned out as I had expected.
Things did turned out as Robert Parks predicted.
 
Frank Znidarsic
 
 

-------------------------------1135787580
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<BODY id=3Drole_body style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY:=20=
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e_document=20
face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D2>
<DIV>I have many pictures of this event in December or 95 on my web site.&nb=
sp;=20
I have pictures of Paterson, Rothwell, Miley, and more.&nbsp; The video clip=
 is=20
to large and does not play.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A=20
href=3D"http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapter1.html">http://www.angelf=
ire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapter1.html</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Miley, Jed, Cravens, Goldies, the Redings, Passell, and I were there.&n=
bsp;=20
We all had great hope. I look older now.&nbsp; Ten years is a material amoun=
t of=20
time in the human life time.&nbsp; Jim Reding and G. Mallove have passed=20
on.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>I dreamed of a career in new energy.&nbsp;This was not to be. &nbsp;I'm=
 now=20
working extended hours as contract start up engineer on&nbsp;coal fired powe=
r=20
plant in Morresville North Carolina.&nbsp; I've grown tired of submitting pa=
pers=20
that were insultingly rejected.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Things have not turned out as I had expected.</DIV>
<DIV>Things did turned out as Robert Parks predicted.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Frank Znidarsic</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>

-------------------------------1135787580--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 28 08:43:56 2005
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Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 09:43:41 -0700
From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
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Well Frank, things have not turned out so badly for everyone.  A few of 
us are still working in the field and doing nicely.  In addition, things 
have not turned out as Park predicted.  The phenomenon is real and even 
more amazing than Park could have imagined.  He will go down in history 
as a fool who was so impressed by his own cleverness that he and his 
friends ignored one of the great discoveries of this century.

Regards,
Ed

FZNIDARSIC aol.com wrote:

> I have many pictures of this event in December or 95 on my web site.  I 
> have pictures of Paterson, Rothwell, Miley, and more.  The video clip is 
> to large and does not play.
>  
> http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapter1.html
>  
> Miley, Jed, Cravens, Goldies, the Redings, Passell, and I were there.  
> We all had great hope. I look older now.  Ten years is a material amount 
> of time in the human life time.  Jim Reding and G. Mallove have passed on.
>  
> I dreamed of a career in new energy. This was not to be.  I'm now 
> working extended hours as contract start up engineer on coal fired power 
> plant in Morresville North Carolina.  I've grown tired of submitting 
> papers that were insultingly rejected.
>  
> Things have not turned out as I had expected.
> Things did turned out as Robert Parks predicted.
>  
> Frank Znidarsic
>  
>  

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 28 09:01:44 2005
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Jim Reding would have been, what, 37 today?  Do you recall how he 
passed?

-----Original Message-----
From: Jed Rothwell

My impression is that Patterson lost heart after his grandson Reding 
died suddenly.

___________________________________________________
Try the New Netscape Mail Today!
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From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
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Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 12:28:48 EST
Subject: 10 years have past since PowerGen 95
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In the late 1970s I was a young Electrical Engineer.  My designs  worked 
well.  I began to believe that I could do much more.  It was my  duty to provide 
something for society.  I began working on new  energy.  I began to see that 
these was a deep connection between  superconductivity, energy, and the process 
of genesis.  I wrote a book  about it at 1989.  I then discovered this vortex 
group.  With advice  from Rothewell,  I was off to PowerGen 95 exactly 10 
years ago.  The  event lit my fuse.  These was a working prototype.  Miley tested  
it.  It was nuclear!   I knew nuclear reactions did not proceed at low  
energy.  Off to college I went.  I added about a half degree of  physics to my 
engineering degree.  While in nuclear class  professor George Mathos stated.  The 
forces rearrange strongly during  the quantum transition.  No one knows how 
this happens.  Here it was a  low energy process that effects the natural forces 
at low energy and it was not  understood.  Nature is described with Planck's 
constant of h.   This constant describes the stationary quantum states.  I 
came up  with a constant of 1.094 megahertz-meters.  This  constant describes 
nature via the transitional quantum state. I  calculated the energy levels of the 
elements, the mass of the W  particle,  the energy of a photon, and offered a 
reconciliation of  Special Relativity and Quantum Physics.  There it was; in 
clean  mathematical logic, indisputable.  The model also allowed for the  
control of all of the natural forces.  Miley invited me  to speak at a meeting of 
the American Nuclear Society in 2000.   I could not miss. We were going to 
have free energy and  antigravity.
 
_MAIN MENU_ (http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/index.html)  
 
What happened?  Nothing!  These was no conspiracy.   Journals just continued 
to reject my work.  I've seen no more working  prototypes of a cold fusion 
device.  I have had to vector a  premier papers to a non-peer reviewed journals.
 
_http://www.wbabin.net/science/znidarsic.pdf_ 
(http://www.wbabin.net/science/znidarsic.pdf) 
 
 
 I no longer speak much of cold fusion.  I do not mention  it on the Job.  
Sometimes someone from my past sees me and asks about  it.  I attempt deflect 
the question.
 
 
Frank Znidarsic
 

-------------------------------1135790928
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e_document=20
face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D2>
<DIV>In the late 1970s I was a young Electrical Engineer.&nbsp; My designs=20
worked well.&nbsp; I began to believe that I could do much more.&nbsp; It wa=
s my=20
duty&nbsp;to provide something for society.&nbsp; I began working on new=20
energy.&nbsp; I began to see that these was a deep connection between=20
superconductivity, energy, and the process of genesis.&nbsp; I wrote a book=20
about it at 1989.&nbsp; I then discovered this vortex group.&nbsp; With advi=
ce=20
from Rothewell, &nbsp;I was off to PowerGen 95 exactly 10 years ago.&nbsp; T=
he=20
event lit my fuse.&nbsp; These was a working prototype.&nbsp; Miley tested=20
it.&nbsp; It was nuclear! &nbsp; I knew nuclear reactions did not proceed at=
 low=20
energy.&nbsp; Off to college I went.&nbsp; I added about a half degree of=20
physics to my&nbsp;engineering degree.&nbsp;&nbsp;While in nuclear class=20
professor George Mathos stated.&nbsp;&nbsp;The forces rearrange strongly dur=
ing=20
the quantum transition.&nbsp; No one knows how this happens.&nbsp; Here it w=
as a=20
low energy process that effects the natural forces at low energy and it was=20=
not=20
understood.&nbsp;&nbsp;Nature is described with Planck's constant of h.&nbsp=
;=20
This constant describes the stationary&nbsp;quantum&nbsp;states.&nbsp; I cam=
e up=20
with a constant of&nbsp;1.094 megahertz-meters.&nbsp; This=20
constant&nbsp;describes nature&nbsp;via the transitional quantum&nbsp;state.=
 I=20
calculated the energy levels of&nbsp;the elements, the mass of the W=20
particle,&nbsp; the&nbsp;energy of a photon, and offered a reconciliation of=
=20
Special Relativity and Quantum Physics.&nbsp; There it was; in clean=20
mathematical logic, indisputable.&nbsp; The&nbsp;model also allowed for the=20
control&nbsp;of&nbsp;all of the natural forces.&nbsp; Miley invited me=20
to&nbsp;speak at a meeting of the&nbsp;American Nuclear Society in 2000.&nbs=
p;=20
I&nbsp;could not&nbsp;miss. We were going to have free energy and=20
antigravity.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A href=3D"http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/index.html">MAIN MENU</A=
>=20
</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>What happened?&nbsp; Nothing!&nbsp; These was no&nbsp;conspiracy.&nbsp;=
=20
Journals just continued to reject my work.&nbsp; I've seen no more working=20
prototypes of a cold fusion&nbsp;device.&nbsp; I&nbsp;have had to vector a=20
premier papers to a non-peer reviewed&nbsp;journals.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A=20
href=3D"http://www.wbabin.net/science/znidarsic.pdf">http://www.wbabin.net/s=
cience/znidarsic.pdf</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;I no longer speak much of cold fusion.&nbsp; I do not mention=20
it&nbsp;on the Job.&nbsp; Sometimes someone from my past sees me and asks ab=
out=20
it.&nbsp; I attempt deflect the question.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Frank Znidarsic</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>

-------------------------------1135790928--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 28 11:11:32 2005
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: 10 years have past since PowerGen 95
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hohlrauml6d netscape.net wrote:

>Jim Reding would have been, what, 37 today?  Do you recall how he passed?

Gene told me he collapsed and died after playing tennis. I suppose it 
must have been a heart attack. Maybe a stroke?

This should remind everyone that Life Is Short and you need to Get 
Things Done. My greatest fear vis a vis cold fusion is that it will 
die when the researchers all die.

- Jed


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Heisenberg doesn't actually preclude fractional orbits.  It only  
necessarily predicts a half-life for them that is shorter the smaller  
the fraction n = 1/2,1/3,1/4, ...

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From: "Jones Beene" <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
To: "vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Subject: Re: 10 years have past since PowerGen 95
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 12:19:31 -0800
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Frank Z,

For years I have been both fascinated and puzzled by your ideas. 
One problem which has hindered the wider understanding and 
dissemination of them falls into the category of "verbalization" 
and another is "predictive power."

I have a feeling that there should be more predictive value to the 
1.094 megahertz-meter thing than you have found thus far - if the 
constant is valid in a universal sense. Have you even considered 
predictive power?

Perhaps others on vortex can suggest ideas for "prediction" or for 
further study, based on the relationship. I will include one such 
suggestion at the end.

Based on what your are saying here:

> Nature is described with Planck's constant of h.  This constant 
> describes the stationary quantum states.  I came up with a 
> constant of 1.094 megahertz-meters.  This constant describes 
> nature via the transitional quantum state.

and further from your website:

"During the quantum transition energy flows from state one to 
another. These states are associated with elastic discontinuities. 
The transitional quantum state is described by its velocity as 
measured with respect to an elastic discontinuity. The velocity of 
the quantum transition is a property of its frequency and 
displacement. The frequency is the Compton frequency Fc. The 
displacement is equal to the extent of the elastic displacement. 
This extent equals the classical radius of the electron rp. For 
centric systems the quantum transition expresses itself through 
its circumferential velocity. A factor of 2 p was incorporated to 
obtain circumferential velocity of the transitional state. The 
velocity of the quantum transition was derived, below, from this 
understanding.

Velocity = 2 p Fc l   meters/second

Velocity = ( 2 p ) [Mc2/h] ( 1.409 x 10-15 )   meters/second

The result is 1.094 meters / second . The velocity is that of the 
transitional quantum state.

END

OK. There should be ways to test this on a macro-scale - looking 
for even small or transitory changes in physical properties of a 
material which is placed in the transitional quantum state.

Here is one idea based on the further related concept of a 
"transitory BEC state". A transitory BEC state is a situation 
where a collection of bosons is put into a physical state of 
imposed "minimized degrees of freedom" ... following which we 
might consequently see that the material displays different 
physical properties than the normal state - properties which are 
far intermediate to a full BEC

First, find a candidate-boson. Freeze it and constrain it as much 
as possible, Accelerate it to the velocity of the quantum 
transition and look for unusual changes-  such as mass-loss, color 
change, conductivity, reflectivity, or really any change in 
physical properties that would show evidence of a transitory BEC 
state.

A good candidate material might be carbon. Carbon in the form of 
graphite fibers. A small hoop or torus of a few grams of graphite 
fiber with a circumference of 10 cm can be frozen to as low as 
temp as possible and spun at the rate of 10.94 RPS. Some changes 
may be noticeable if the carbon undergoes even transitory 
excursions into a BEC state. One expected change might be color 
loss or even partial transparency.

BTW - although we know that diamond, which is transparent, is well 
described simply as a particular structural phase of carbon, no 
one has yet ruled out the possibility that some of the strange 
physical properties of diamond (relative to graphite) are not 
related to a transitory BEC state - due to the enormous 
virtual-self-pressure of the unusual regular and coherent bonding.

Frank Grimer should find that kind of thing provocative as well.

Jones 

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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: 10 years have past since PowerGen 95
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Frank Znidarsic wrote:

>Miley, Jed, Cravens, Goldies, the Redings, Passell, and I were 
>there.  We all had great hope. I look older now.  Ten years is a 
>material amount of time in the human life time.  Jim Reding and G. 
>Mallove have passed on.
>
>I dreamed of a career in new energy.

People sure do get a different impressions of events. I did not have 
great hope. On the contrary, I thought the meeting and the demo were 
disasters, and I predicted that CETI would go down in flames. The 
company continued longer than I thought it would.

I almost did not attend. When I arrived, Reding told me I would not 
be allowed to make an audio recording, take notes, or confirm the 
temperature readings with my own thermistor, because he wanted to 
keep the details of their research under wraps. I said if I had known 
those were the rules I would never have come, and that under the 
circumstances I would leave the meeting at once, go home, and post 
messages on Internet saying why I could not report on the meeting. He 
relented. I found it ironic  weeks later when he distributed my 
written description of the demonstration without asking me for 
permission. (Not that I would have refused him but it would have been 
nice to ask.)

I called Chris Tinsley that evening seething with anger and disgust. 
He said he never heard me so upset. Actually, I seldom get angry. 
Chris & I used to laugh at things like this, and later we did put 
CETI in perspective, and we saw the humor and pathos in it. We may 
not have funding, but humor and pathos are two things this field has 
in abundance.

- Jed


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From: Horace Heffner <hheffner mtaonline.net>
Subject: Re: Heisenberg and Hydrinos
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 11:48:55 -0900
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Heisenberg doesn't actually preclude fractional orbits.  It only  
necessarily predicts a half-life for them that is shorter the smaller  
the fraction n = 1/2,1/3,1/4, ...

Making practical use of hydrinos then is a matter of generating them  
in an environment where they quickly cause nuclear reactions.  A  
condensed matter environment is thus a good environment to utilize  
the hydrinos, but a difficult environment in which to generate them.   
A gaseous environment is less than ideal because a short half-life  
precludes high reaction rates.  A liquid environment naturally  
provides both high density and the ability to create hydrinos.  The  
blue glow regime near the anode then may be an ideal regime to create  
and utilize hydrinos.

Horace Heffner

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Subject: Wikipedia skeptics are upset
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This is trivial stuff, but if you feel like riling the skeptics, 
click on this page and add a comment saying "Keep" and "now it has 
real science." See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Featured_article_removal_candidates/Cold_fusion

- Jed


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Subject: Electron pair condensates used to create LENR
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 12:46:16 -0900
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BACKGROUND

The focus of prior designs utilizing electron pair condensates (see:  
<http://mtaonline.net/~hheffner/ElectPairs.pdf>) was the creation of  
energy by use of an electron pair as a catalyst.   There is a natural  
design problem associated with using cold superconductors at close  
proximity to material in which heat is to be generated.

WHY FOCUS ON LENR?

Overlooked was the possibility of using these free electron pairs,  
bosons generated by applying a negative potential to a  
superconductor, to demonstrate low energy nuclear reactions with high  
repeatability.  These reactions would not have characteristic high  
energy nuclear signatures or branching ratios, thus would prove the  
existence of a new nuclear reaction regime. One application of this  
approach might be the generation of tritium by use face of a  
superconductor as the negative plate of a high voltage capacitor in  
which deuterium is between the plates.  This would not generate a lot  
of tritium, but the advantage here is the ability to easily identify  
minute amounts of the tritium with high reliability. It may be  
advantageous to use D2O ice as a dielectric for the capacitor.

Alternatively, hydrogen loaded anode might be placed immediately  
adjacent to the superconducting cathode, preferably adhered to it or  
applied to it with a separation distance achieved suitable to make a  
Josephson junction.   The objective here is to manufacture neutral de- 
energized hydrogen states, e.g. He*, which can migrate into high mass  
nuclei and create signature free nuclear reactions.


WHY NO NUCLEAR SIGNATURES?

When two deuterons collide and fuse in hot fusion, it takes a lot of  
energy.  The resulting nucleus has a lot of pent up potential energy,  
which ends up released in the form of decay particle energy, or gammas.

If the waveforms of two deuterons tunnel to the locus of an electron,  
i.e. the quantum waveforms of two deuterons and a centrally located  
electron collapse at the locus of the electron center of charge, then  
the resulting nucleus is not energetic.  This concept was more fully  
described here in 2001. See <http://mtaonline.net/~hheffner/ 
EcatFusion.pdf>.

Now, supposing T is the final result of the fusion, and no neutron.   
We then have:

    D + D + e-  --->  He*  --->  T + P + 2 e-

where here He* here is not really helium at all, and certainly not an  
energetic isomer.  It is a highly de-energized complex.  Within He*,  
to produce this reaction, there is an accelerated decay of a neutron,  
producing a P and e- which have to leave the nucleus, and some  
nominal energy.  The work to eject the P and e- is a wash.  The work  
to eject the second electron, the catalytic electron, further de- 
energizes the nucleus.  There will be no energetic gamma.   
Additionally, the ejection of P + 2 e- could be expected to produce  
EM radiation, and not all in one high energy photon, but rather in  
smaller chunks.  The only signatures of this reaction are thus low  
order heat and tritium.

The Pauli exclusion principle excludes superposition of two fermions  
not having opposed spins, e.g. 3 free electrons.  There is evidence  
that a superposition event can occur between two fermions having  
opposed that makes them act like a boson.  Examples of this are the  
ability of electrons to build Ken Shoulder's EV's (if they actually  
exist), superconductivity (the formation of electron pair bosons,  
superpositioned electrons with opposed spins, may be an alternative  
explanation of superconductivity) as well as the proven existence of  
fermion Bose condensates.  Electron pair bosons additionally provide  
a rationale for the tendency of electrons to tunnel in pairs across  
Josephson junctions.  The superposition of opposed spin particles  
cancels the net spin magnetic field.

The quantum waveform (psi) of any particle extends throughout the  
universe.  The integral of Psi^2 for a volume indicates the  
probability of the particle's location in a given volume in a given  
time. When two or more particles have an "event", creating a new  
particle or particles, the waveforms of the old particles collapse,  
and the new particles waveforms instantly extend throughout the  
universe.  (Yes, this means FTL events can happen.)  If any event can  
happen between any two or more particles, the probability of that  
event in some volume of space is just integral of the overlap of the  
psi^2 value of the waveforms in the volume. The electron catalysis  
concept is simply, provided a 3rd (catalyst) particle can be involved  
in an event, its being located halfway between two other involved  
particles separated by distance X greatly increases the probability  
of the 3 body event over the probability of the two body event  
(excluding the catalyst) at the given distance X.  Further, the  
event, the resulting product, must be energetically favorable, and  
having two bodies of one charge and one of the other ensures that the  
event is energetically favorable with respect to coulomb charge.  The  
wave function collapse of two deuterons upon a boson consisting of  
two opposed spin electrons would be even more energetically  
favorable.  Thus you have the 2 electron catalysis hypothesis.  See  
also <http://mtaonline.net/~hheffner/DualElectronCatFusion.pdf>

Horace Heffner

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Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 21:50:22 +0000
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From: Grimer <f.grimer grimer2.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Interesting Michael Crichton Speech on complexity
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At 01:08 pm 28/12/2005 -0700, Ron wrote:
>
>http://www.michaelcrichton.com/speeches/complexity/complexity.html


Yep. That was rather interesting. Thanks.  8-)

Frank Grimer

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I found this discussion incredibly shallow. Of course fear can be bad. 
After all it gave us the Bush administration and the Iraq war.  On the 
other hand some things are worth fearing.  The demand on oil is going up 
which causes the price of energy to go up.  This will have fearful 
consequences for many people.  The earth is warming, regardless of the 
source of this energy.  This will also have fearful consequences. I 
person has to identify fearful situations and avoid them. If people in 
New Orleans had feared a major Hurricane, as was predicted, they would 
have better protected themselves, or moved. So, what is the point to 
this essay?

Regards,
Ed

Ron Wormus wrote:

> 
> http://www.michaelcrichton.com/speeches/complexity/complexity.html
> 

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Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 17:10:12 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Interesting Michael Crichton Speech on complexity
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This is dreadful. The guy has no clue about how to approach a 
difficult, complex, poorly understood subject. He takes it for 
granted that "the actual number [of people killed at Chernobyl] is 
56." He should at least say that some experts disagree, and there are 
credible reports that thousands died, but that he believes the 
correct number is 56. He simply dismisses all other estimates out of hand.

I am glad he does not have it in for cold fusion, and I am equally 
glad that he is not a supporter.

- Jed


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Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 22:26:18 +0000
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From: Grimer <f.grimer grimer2.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: 10 years have past since PowerGen 95
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At 12:19 pm 28/12/2005 -0800, Jones wrote:

<snip>

>BTW - although we know that diamond, which is transparent, is well 
>described simply as a particular structural phase of carbon, no 
>one has yet ruled out the possibility that some of the strange 
>physical properties of diamond (relative to graphite) are not 
>related to a transitory BEC state - due to the enormous 
>virtual-self-pressure of the unusual regular and coherent bonding.
>
>Frank Grimer should find that kind of thing provocative as well.
>
>Jones 


Careful Jones - we don't want a Big-ender, Little-ender dispute.

As you know I work from downwards from Alpha and Omega in contrast 
to Little-enders who work upward from the Aztec serpent-god Quetzalcoatl. ;-)

Frank

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Subject: Re: 10 years have past since PowerGen 95
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 18:52:51 -0500
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jed Rothwell" <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
To: <vortex-L eskimo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2005 2:11 PM
Subject: Re: 10 years have past since PowerGen 95


> hohlrauml6d netscape.net wrote:
>
>>Jim Reding would have been, what, 37 today?  Do you recall how he passed?
>
> Gene told me he collapsed and died after playing tennis. I suppose it must 
> have been a heart attack. Maybe a stroke?
>
> This should remind everyone that Life Is Short and you need to Get Things 
> Done. My greatest fear vis a vis cold fusion is that it will die when the 
> researchers all die.
>
> - Jed

That's not going to happen Jed.  If cold fusion is indeed a real and viable 
scientific discovery, the death of researchers will not end its development. 
Perhaps their deaths will slow cold fusion research down, but if something 
is real in nature it will eventually be developed by someone.  The only way 
cold fusion will totally die is if it has been an artifact all along, gross 
experimental error, noise.  I think we all agree that is not the case, so 
cold fusion will live on and develop long after the current crop of 
researchers are gone.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 28 16:21:52 2005
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Subject: Re: Wikipedia skeptics are upset
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jed Rothwell" <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
To: <vortex-L eskimo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2005 4:00 PM
Subject: Wikipedia skeptics are upset


> This is trivial stuff, but if you feel like riling the skeptics, click on 
> this page and add a comment saying "Keep" and "now it has real science." 
> See:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Featured_article_removal_candidates/Cold_fusion
>
> - Jed
>

I added my 2 cents under Rock_nj.  I basically think it's a good thing to 
cover cold fusion in a Wikipedia article, but with a disclaimer about the 
controversy (to be fair).   People do come to Wikipedia to learn about cold 
fusion after all.  The Wikipedia article does give a lot of information 
about cold to newcomers and links for them to get more info, 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 28 17:17:38 2005
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
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Subject: Re: 10 years have past since PowerGen 95
Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 12:17:07 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Jones Beene's message of Wed, 28 Dec 2005 12:19:31
-0800:
Hi,
[snip]
>"During the quantum transition energy flows from state one to 
>another. These states are associated with elastic discontinuities. 
>The transitional quantum state is described by its velocity as 
>measured with respect to an elastic discontinuity. The velocity of 
>the quantum transition is a property of its frequency and 
>displacement. The frequency is the Compton frequency Fc. The 
>displacement is equal to the extent of the elastic displacement. 
>This extent equals the classical radius of the electron rp. For 
>centric systems the quantum transition expresses itself through 
>its circumferential velocity. A factor of 2 p was incorporated to 
>obtain circumferential velocity of the transitional state. The 
>velocity of the quantum transition was derived, below, from this 
>understanding.
>
>Velocity = 2 p Fc l   meters/second
>
>Velocity = ( 2 p ) [Mc2/h] ( 1.409 x 10-15 )   meters/second

First, if l is the classical electron radius, and M the mass of
the electron then the velocity works out to 2.188E6 m/s (also
assuming p stands for Pi).

Now let us suppose that the electron is a toroid, which rotates
about both axes. Let us further suppose that the Compton frequency
of the electron is the higher of the two rotation rates, i.e.
about the minor axis. Suppose further that the minor radius is the
classical electron radius.

Then the equation above is the surface rotation velocity about the
minor axis.

My reason for choosing a toroid is that it is the simplest closed
form that has two states (charge?) when rotating about both axes.

My guess is that the major radius is the Bohr radius in the ground
state hydrogen atom, so that the ratio of the minor radius to the
major radius is the square of the fine structure constant.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 28 18:55:49 2005
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Jed Rothwell wrote:
> This is trivial stuff, but if you feel like riling the skeptics, click 
> on this page and add a comment saying "Keep" and "now it has real 
> science." See:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Featured_article_removal_candidates/Cold_fusion 

Just like to point out that this debate is whether to "keep" it as a 
"featured article" or "demote" it -- there's apparently no question 
about removing the page from Wiki.

I'm not too clear on exactly how a "featured article" is "featured", 
however.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 28 19:05:48 2005
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Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 03:05:18 +0000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Grimer <f.grimer grimer2.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: 10 years have past since PowerGen 95
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At 12:17 pm 29/12/2005 +1100, you wrote:
>In reply to  Jones Beene's message of Wed, 28 Dec 2005 12:19:31
>-0800:
>Hi,
>[snip]
>>"During the quantum transition energy flows from state one to 
>>another. These states are associated with elastic discontinuities. 
>>The transitional quantum state is described by its velocity as 
>>measured with respect to an elastic discontinuity. The velocity of 
>>the quantum transition is a property of its frequency and 
>>displacement. The frequency is the Compton frequency Fc. The 
>>displacement is equal to the extent of the elastic displacement. 
>>This extent equals the classical radius of the electron rp. For 
>>centric systems the quantum transition expresses itself through 
>>its circumferential velocity. A factor of 2 p was incorporated to 
>>obtain circumferential velocity of the transitional state. The 
>>velocity of the quantum transition was derived, below, from this 
>>understanding.
>>
>>Velocity = 2 p Fc l   meters/second
>>
>>Velocity = ( 2 p ) [Mc2/h] ( 1.409 x 10-15 )   meters/second
>
>First, if l is the classical electron radius, and M the mass of
>the electron then the velocity works out to 2.188E6 m/s (also
>assuming p stands for Pi).
>
>Now let us suppose that the electron is a toroid, which rotates
>about both axes. Let us further suppose that the Compton frequency
>of the electron is the higher of the two rotation rates, i.e.
>about the minor axis. Suppose further that the minor radius is the
>classical electron radius.
>
>Then the equation above is the surface rotation velocity about the
>minor axis.
>
>My reason for choosing a toroid is that it is the simplest closed
>form that has two states (charge?) when rotating about both axes.
>
>My guess is that the major radius is the Bohr radius in the ground
>state hydrogen atom, so that the ratio of the minor radius to the
>major radius is the square of the fine structure constant.
>
>
>Regards,
>
>Robin van Spaandonk


I like it.   8-)

Frank Grimer





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OK, I threw in 2 cents with a "Keep" vote.

And I noticed that Kirk Shanahan is (or was) actively working on the 
page too.  Arrrgh!


Jed Rothwell wrote:
> This is trivial stuff, but if you feel like riling the skeptics, click 
> on this page and add a comment saying "Keep" and "now it has real 
> science." See:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Featured_article_removal_candidates/Cold_fusion 
> 
> 
> - Jed
> 
> 
> 

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Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 04:35:03 +0000
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Grimer <f.grimer grimer2.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Ooops! Fancy that! 8-)
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Experimentally a black body can be improvised by taking 
a hollow ball – coating the walls with soot and then 
drilling a hole in it along the x axis.

If we warm this object – the radiation seen from the x 
direction is given by Stefan’s law:

             R(x)   [proportional]   T^4 

If we now drill holes along the y and z axes then the 
radiation seen from the y and z directions will be 

             R(y)   [proportional]   T^4 

             R(z)   [proportional]   T^4 

But each of these views are one dimensional views of 
a three dimensional entity, i.e. the radiation in the 
black body.

Combining the three partial views into one whole view 
gives us,

   R(x).R(y).R(z) [proportional] T^4.T^4.T^4.

         R(x.y.z) [proportional]  T^12

Cheers,

Frank Grimer

==========================================================
et omnis qui audit verba mea haec et non facit ea similis 
erit viro stulto qui aedificavit domum suam supra harenam 
et descendit pluvia et venerunt flumina et flaverunt venti 
et inruerunt in domum illam et cecidit et fuit ruina eius 
                      magna    8-)
==========================================================


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 29 05:48:32 2005
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From: "RC Macaulay" <walhalla cvtv.net>
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Subject: Re: Ooops! Fancy that! 8-)
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Hi Frank,
Between the chuckle I can almost hear across the big pond, the latino blend 
of humor and my lack of understanding of how you arrived at T^12 gives the 
morning sunshine a lift. Please go over that jump again.
Richard
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Grimer" <f.grimer grimer2.freeserve.co.uk>
To: <vortex-L eskimo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2005 10:35 PM
Subject: Re: Ooops! Fancy that! 8-)


> Experimentally a black body can be improvised by taking
> a hollow ball - coating the walls with soot and then
> drilling a hole in it along the x axis.
>
> If we warm this object - the radiation seen from the x
> direction is given by Stefan's law:
>
>             R(x)   [proportional]   T^4
>
> If we now drill holes along the y and z axes then the
> radiation seen from the y and z directions will be
>
>             R(y)   [proportional]   T^4
>
>             R(z)   [proportional]   T^4
>
> But each of these views are one dimensional views of
> a three dimensional entity, i.e. the radiation in the
> black body.
>
> Combining the three partial views into one whole view
> gives us,
>
>   R(x).R(y).R(z) [proportional] T^4.T^4.T^4.
>
>         R(x.y.z) [proportional]  T^12
>
> Cheers,
>
> Frank Grimer
>
> ==========================================================
> et omnis qui audit verba mea haec et non facit ea similis
> erit viro stulto qui aedificavit domum suam supra harenam
> et descendit pluvia et venerunt flumina et flaverunt venti
> et inruerunt in domum illam et cecidit et fuit ruina eius
>                      magna    8-)
> ==========================================================
>
>
> 


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 29 06:59:28 2005
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Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 09:58:46 -0500
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: 10 years have past since PowerGen 95
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John Coviello wrote:

>>My greatest fear vis a vis cold fusion is that it will die when the 
>>researchers all die.
>That's not going to happen Jed.  If cold fusion is indeed a real and 
>viable scientific discovery, the death of researchers will not end 
>its development. Perhaps their deaths will slow cold fusion research 
>down, but if something is real in nature it will eventually be 
>developed by someone.  The only way cold fusion will totally die is 
>if it has been an artifact all along, gross experimental error, noise.

How do you know that? People often say things like: "Science always 
works in the end; valuable data is never truly lost." In other 
fields, valuable data and important techniques are lost all the time. 
I know of examples in computer programming, shipbuilding, metallurgy 
and many other fields. Programming techniques which were well known 
in the 1970s are unheard of today. I purchased a commercial program a 
couple years ago to accomplish one of the tasks at LENR-CANR.org. It 
took 10 minutes to execute. I wrote an old-fashioned Pascal program 
that ran in 20 seconds and did a better job.

In his latest book, Kenneth Deffeyes wrote: "the number of active 
exploration geologists in petroleum plus mining in the world is a few 
thousand, probably fewer than 10,000. Almost all the students with a 
natural science and today are majoring in environmental studies or 
ecology. The problem involves more than just the colleges and 
universities. Most of us learned an enormous amount on the job from 
our older colleagues, skilled and experienced geologists. When those 
threads are broken, there is a permanent loss." "Beyond Oil," p. 179

Why should experimental science be different from these other fields?

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 29 07:02:21 2005
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Stephen A. Lawrence wrote:

>Just like to point out that this debate is whether to "keep" it as a 
>"featured article" or "demote" it -- there's apparently no question 
>about removing the page from Wiki.
>
>I'm not too clear on exactly how a "featured article" is "featured", however.

I do not know what it is about either. It is probably unimportant, 
but it would be fun to see their reaction if 50 people show up and 
vote against them. These people are dead certain that their views 
represent the "vast majority" of scientists. They keep repeating that 
in the article and in the talk section, but as I and others have told 
them. They have no evidence for that, such as a public opinion poll 
data. They just assume they are right about everything.

- Jed


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From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
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Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 10:14:01 EST
Subject: 10 years have passed since PowerGen 95
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-------------------------------1135869241
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Jones Beene
Wed, 28 Dec 2005  12:20:56 -0800 

Frank Z,




For years I have been both fascinated and puzzled by your  ideas. One problem 
which has hindered the wider understanding and dissemination of them falls 
into the category of "verbalization" and another is "predictive power." 



I have a feeling that there should be more predictive  value to the 1.094 
megahertz-meter thing than you have found thus far -  if the constant is valid in 
a universal sense. Have you even considered predictive power? 
<snip>
Thank you Jones Beene
 
What does this predict?  It predicts the unknown  that 50 nano meter 
superconducting clusters that are stimulated thermally at a  frequency of about 
10exp13 hertz should generate nuclear anomalies.  The  product of the dimension and 
the frequency is one megahertz-meter.  It  predicts the unknown that a 
superconductor 1/3 of meter in diameter stimlated at  a frequency of 3 megahertz 
should produce a gravitational anamaloy.
 
It predicts the following knowns.  The transitional  quantum states are 
associated with electromagnetic and gravitational  anomalies. These anomalies 
equalize the strength of the two forces.   "The motion constants tend toward the 
electromagnetic."  That the energy  levels of the atoms may be determined from 
these concepts.
 
_http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapterb.html#Pg10_ 
(http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapterb.html#Pg10) 
 
It predicts the energy of the photon  based on the idea that photonic energy 
flows proceed through gravitational and  electromagnetic anomalies.  Again the 
motion constants of the gravitational  and electromagnetic systems converge.
 
_http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapterb.html#Pg9_ 
(http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapterb.html#Pg9) 
 
It predicts that radius of the proton  based on the idea that energy flow 
between electromagnetic, gravitational, and  nuclear forces base on an 
equalization in the strength of the forces.   These forces become equal at the edge of 
the proton.
 
_http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chaptera.html#Pg8_ 
(http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chaptera.html#Pg8) 
 
It predicts the mass of the W particle  based on the idea that quantum energy 
flows occur at points where the strength  of the forces becomes equal.
 
_http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapterb.html#Pg11_ 
(http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapterb.html#Pg11) 
 
 
It has provided an alternate view of the  major phenomena associated with the 
four natural forces.
 
It predicts that the phase velocity of  the stationary Quantum State is c and 
the group velocity is V.  From this  construct a reconciliation of Special 
Relativity and Quantum Physics was  obtained.
 
_http://www.wbabin.net/science/znidarsic.pdf_ 
(http://www.wbabin.net/science/znidarsic.pdf) 
 
It predicts much more that I will skip  to limit the scope of this email.  
None of the predictions is solid enough  to stand on its own.  Taken together, 
however, the do point a  picture.  This picture of an alternate view of low 
energy physics.   This view is from the vantage point of the transitional Quantum 
State.   From this view we can see that the strength of the natural forces 
converges  during a quantum transition.  These transitions occur at a 
dimensional  frequency of 1.094 megahertz meters.  The strong interaction may be  
employed in a macroscopic Bose condense to strongly and directly harness each of  
the natural forces.
 
Most of physics has moved on to higher  eneries.  The search of the Higgs, 
string theory and the like. No practical  technology will be discovered there.  
Low energy physics is considered  done, closed, and finished.  For this reason 
doors at journals are closed  to my ideas and cold fusion.
 
Thank your for our positive  comment.  It is one of the few that I have had.
 
Frank Znidarsic
 


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<DIV>
<P><SPAN class=3Dsender>Jones Beene</SPAN><BR><SPAN class=3Ddate>Wed, 28 Dec=
 2005=20
12:20:56 -0800</SPAN></P><!--X-Subject-Header-End--><!--X-Head-of-Message-->=
<!--X-Head-of-Message-End--><!--X-Head-Body-Sep-Begin--><!--X-Head-Body-Sep-=
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<DIV class=3DmsgBody><PRE style=3D"MARGIN: 0em">Frank Z,

</PRE></DIV>
<DIV class=3DmsgBody><TT>For years I have been both fascinated and puzzled b=
y your=20
ideas. </TT><TT>One problem which has hindered the wider understanding and=20
</TT><TT>dissemination of them falls into the category of "verbalization"=20
</TT><TT>and another is "predictive power." </TT></DIV>
<DIV class=3DmsgBody><PRE style=3D"MARGIN: 0em"></PRE></DIV>
<DIV class=3DmsgBody><TT>I have a feeling that there should be more predicti=
ve=20
value to the </TT><TT>1.094 megahertz-meter thing than you have found thus f=
ar -=20
if the </TT><TT>constant is valid in a universal sense. Have you even consid=
ered=20
</TT><TT>predictive power? </TT></DIV>
<DIV class=3DmsgBody><TT>&lt;snip&gt;</TT></DIV>
<DIV class=3DmsgBody><TT>Thank you Jones Beene</TT></DIV>
<DIV class=3DmsgBody><TT></TT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV class=3DmsgBody><TT>What does this predict?&nbsp; It predicts the unkno=
wn=20
that 50 nano meter superconducting clusters that are stimulated thermally at=
 a=20
frequency of about 10exp13 hertz should generate nuclear anomalies.&nbsp; Th=
e=20
product of the dimension and the frequency is one megahertz-meter.&nbsp; It=20
predicts the unknown that a superconductor 1/3 of meter in diameter stimlate=
d at=20
a frequency of 3 megahertz should produce a gravitational anamaloy.</TT></DI=
V>
<DIV class=3DmsgBody><TT></TT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV class=3DmsgBody><TT>It predicts the following knowns.&nbsp; The transit=
ional=20
quantum states are associated with electromagnetic and gravitational=20
anomalies.&nbsp;These anomalies equalize the strength of the two forces.&nbs=
p;=20
"The motion constants tend toward the electromagnetic."&nbsp; That the energ=
y=20
levels of the atoms may be determined from these concepts.</TT></DIV>
<DIV class=3DmsgBody><TT></TT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV class=3DmsgBody><TT><A=20
href=3D"http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapterb.html#Pg10">http://www.a=
ngelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapterb.html#Pg10</A></TT></DIV>
<DIV class=3DmsgBody><TT><FONT face=3DArial></FONT></TT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV class=3DmsgBody><TT><FONT face=3DArial>It predicts the energy of the ph=
oton=20
based on the idea that photonic energy flows proceed through gravitational a=
nd=20
electromagnetic anomalies.&nbsp; Again the motion constants of the gravitati=
onal=20
and electromagnetic systems converge.</FONT></TT></DIV>
<DIV class=3DmsgBody><TT><FONT face=3DArial></FONT></TT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV class=3DmsgBody><TT><FONT face=3DArial><A=20
href=3D"http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapterb.html#Pg9">http://www.an=
gelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapterb.html#Pg9</A></FONT></TT></DIV>
<DIV class=3DmsgBody><TT><FONT face=3DArial></FONT></TT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV class=3DmsgBody><TT><FONT face=3DArial>It predicts that radius of the p=
roton=20
based on the idea that energy flow between electromagnetic, gravitational, a=
nd=20
nuclear forces base on an equalization in the strength of the forces.&nbsp;=20
These forces become equal at the edge of the proton.</FONT></TT></DIV>
<DIV class=3DmsgBody><TT><FONT face=3DArial></FONT></TT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV class=3DmsgBody><TT><FONT face=3DArial><A=20
href=3D"http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chaptera.html#Pg8">http://www.an=
gelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chaptera.html#Pg8</A></FONT></TT></DIV>
<DIV class=3DmsgBody><TT><FONT face=3DArial></FONT></TT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV class=3DmsgBody><TT><FONT face=3DArial>It predicts the mass of the W pa=
rticle=20
based on the idea that quantum energy flows occur at points where the streng=
th=20
of the forces becomes equal.</FONT></TT></DIV>
<DIV class=3DmsgBody><TT><FONT face=3DArial></FONT></TT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV class=3DmsgBody><TT><FONT face=3DArial><A=20
href=3D"http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapterb.html#Pg11">http://www.a=
ngelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapterb.html#Pg11</A></FONT></TT></DIV>
<DIV class=3DmsgBody><TT><FONT face=3DArial></FONT></TT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV class=3DmsgBody><TT><FONT face=3DArial></FONT></TT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV class=3DmsgBody><TT><FONT face=3DArial>It has provided an alternate vie=
w of the=20
major phenomena associated with the&nbsp;four natural forces.</FONT></TT></D=
IV>
<DIV class=3DmsgBody><TT><FONT face=3DArial></FONT></TT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV class=3DmsgBody><TT><FONT face=3DArial>It predicts that the phase veloc=
ity of=20
the stationary Quantum State is c and the group velocity is V.&nbsp; From th=
is=20
construct a reconciliation of Special Relativity and Quantum Physics was=20
obtained.</FONT></TT></DIV>
<DIV class=3DmsgBody><TT><FONT face=3DArial></FONT></TT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV class=3DmsgBody><TT><FONT face=3DArial><A=20
href=3D"http://www.wbabin.net/science/znidarsic.pdf">http://www.wbabin.net/s=
cience/znidarsic.pdf</A></FONT></TT></DIV>
<DIV class=3DmsgBody><TT><FONT face=3DArial></FONT></TT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV class=3DmsgBody><TT><FONT face=3DArial>It predicts much more that I wil=
l skip=20
to limit the scope of this email.&nbsp; None of the predictions is solid eno=
ugh=20
to stand on its own.&nbsp; Taken together, however, the do point a=20
picture.&nbsp; This picture of an alternate view of low energy physics.&nbsp=
;=20
This view is from the vantage point of the transitional Quantum State.&nbsp;=
=20
>From this view we can see that the strength of the natural forces converges=20
during a quantum transition.&nbsp; These transitions occur at a dimensional=20
frequency of 1.094 megahertz meters.&nbsp; The strong interaction may be=20
employed in a macroscopic Bose condense to strongly and directly harness eac=
h of=20
the natural forces.</FONT></TT></DIV>
<DIV class=3DmsgBody><TT><FONT face=3DArial></FONT></TT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV class=3DmsgBody><TT><FONT face=3DArial>Most of physics has moved on to=20=
higher=20
eneries.&nbsp; The search of the Higgs, string theory and the like. No pract=
ical=20
technology will be discovered there.&nbsp; Low energy physics is considered=20
done, closed, and finished.&nbsp; For this reason doors at journals are clos=
ed=20
to my ideas and cold fusion.</FONT></TT></DIV>
<DIV class=3DmsgBody><TT><FONT face=3DArial></FONT></TT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV class=3DmsgBody><TT><FONT face=3DArial>Thank your for our positive=20
comment.&nbsp; It is one of the few that I have had.</FONT></TT></DIV>
<DIV class=3DmsgBody><TT><FONT face=3DArial></FONT></TT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV class=3DmsgBody><TT><FONT face=3DArial>Frank Znidarsic</FONT></TT></DIV=
>
<DIV class=3DmsgBody><TT><FONT=20
face=3DArial></FONT></TT>&nbsp;</DIV></DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>

-------------------------------1135869241--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 29 07:59:38 2005
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Subject: Re: 10 years have past since PowerGen 95
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jed Rothwell" <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
To: <vortex-L eskimo.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2005 9:58 AM
Subject: Re: 10 years have past since PowerGen 95


> John Coviello wrote:
>
>>>My greatest fear vis a vis cold fusion is that it will die when the 
>>>researchers all die.
>>That's not going to happen Jed.  If cold fusion is indeed a real and 
>>viable scientific discovery, the death of researchers will not end its 
>>development. Perhaps their deaths will slow cold fusion research down, but 
>>if something is real in nature it will eventually be developed by someone. 
>>The only way cold fusion will totally die is if it has been an artifact 
>>all along, gross experimental error, noise.
>
> How do you know that? People often say things like: "Science always works 
> in the end; valuable data is never truly lost." In other fields, valuable 
> data and important techniques are lost all the time. - Jed

You make a valid point Jed.  What you say is indeed true in some other 
fields.  But cold fusion, if it is indeed real beyond any doubts, will 
prevail.  Especially now in 2005/2006, there are just too many people 
following cold fusion these days for it to die an unnatural death.  The U.S. 
DOE just reviewed cold fusion a few years ago.  The governments of Japan and 
Italy are investigating cold fusion to remediate nuclear waste. 
Technologies that are near death don't receive that kind of official 
attention.  Also, because oil is nearing peak production and the price of 
oil appears to have started a sustain rise higher, there will be a real need 
for alternative energy technologies in coming decades, so the pressure will 
be on to find alternatives, one of which is cold fusion.

Actually, I would propose that cold fusion might die from another cause of 
death, irrelevency.  For one thing cold fusion might be provable beyond a 
doubt in coming years, but it might not be scalable to be useful in energy 
production and might just remain a useless laboratory curiosity for decades 
that may or may not one day be applied to some useful purpose.  For two, 
back when cold fusion was originally discovered in 1989, the options for 
alternative energy were rather limited (mainly by price, but also by a lack 
of workable technologies).  All that has changed in 2005/2006.  Mainstream 
alternative energy technologies such as wind and solar have dropped 
significantly in price and have grown more efficient.  Other alternatives 
are making gains such as fuel cells, waste-to-energy, wave/tidal power, etc. 
When the world needs to shift to new energy sources as fossil fuels dwindel 
in coming decades, they might not be looking for cold fusion or some exotic 
form of energy when proven mainstream alternative energy technologies are 
suitable to fill the gap.

Cold fusion will eventually prevail if it can be proven to be reliable and 
cost effective.  As we all know, cost considerations are what mainly drives 
technological implementation in this world.  If someone starts selling cold 
fusion powered cars that can be operated for $1.00 a week on heavy water, 
obviously the public will flock to such a technology that would save tham 
$100s of dollars on their transportation costs.  But as we know, the auto 
companies are dragging their feet on implementing such cost saving 
technologies as plug-in hybrid cars, so what hope does a truly revolutionary 
technology like cold fusion have in this world?  Let's face it our 
government and corporate leaders make their decisions based on the bottom 
line.  Other considerations such as the public good, environment, cost 
savings, safety all take a back seat to profits. 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 29 08:17:59 2005
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  I see your point, but consider this:  when a single photon leaves a 
star, being a wave structure, that photon extends radially in all 
directions.  When I look at the star and the photon strikes the rod in 
my retina, all the energy of *that* photon is absorbed by my eye.

"Collegerunt ergo et impleverunt duodecim cofinos fragmentorum ex 
quinque panibus hordiaciis quae superfuerunt his qui manducaverunt"

-----Original Message-----
From: Grimer

         R(x.y.z) [proportional]  T^12
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From: Horace Heffner <hheffner mtaonline.net>
Subject: Old electrospark experiment
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I've been looking at my old electrospark experiment reports for  
evidence of blue-green glow effects as opposed to electrospark  
effects.  Experiment #15 below gave me quite a bit of excitement when  
I realized a high COP  (i.e 1.27) was just being achieved during  
conditioning when, at time 20  minutes, I blindly and stupidly (not  
knowing at the time what the glow regime was really all about)  
punched the current up from 0.0571 amps to 0.2110 amps to achieve the  
electrospark regime.  The data was manually recorded, so at the time  
of the experiment I did not know what the COP was.

I found a significant problem that damped my recent excitement.   
Something missing in the typed report for Experiment #15, but in the  
lab book, is that 74.22 g out of an initial 417.98 g initial  
electrolyte weight boiled off.  The energy from this 74.22 g boil off  
was distributed across *all* the data points by putting it in the  
cell tare.  There was no means utilized to keep track of actual boil  
off on a per minute basis.  The cell was weighed before and after  
only.  This means the corrected power out "Cor p out" estimates in  
the first low power part of the run (time 4-20) are probably too  
high, and in the second high current part, too low.  (THIS MAKES THE  
BLUE GLOW SECTION LOOK TOO GOOD.) The only way to do this right is to  
run in the glow range for the entire experiment.  At any rate, at  
this point I don't know that there is anything unusual going on.  I  
suppose the tare could be adjusted by prorating the total boil off by  
the power in numbers.  That too would be misleading in that the  
waveform in the blue glow regime, as drawn in the lab book,   
exhibited a much lower power factor in the glow phase than in the  
electrospark regime, but unfortunately I did not record the phase  
shift number for the glow regime, nor even recognize it as a possible  
power producing regime.  Too bad also the spread sheet and the cell  
setup are long gone.


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Na2SiO3 Experiment #15  - 12/29/1997

The purpose of this experiment was to test a 0.5 g/l Na2SiO3 with Zr  
electrodes using the new boiloff protocol.  The total COP derived for  
this run was 1.00, with Ein = 196548 J, and Eout =   196798 J.  No  
compensation was made for H2 + O2 creation energy, nor for Zr  
electrode oxidation, nor for a phase difference of 25.92 deg. (power  
factor .899).  What is most interesting about this test is that the  
COP is 1.11 if the power factor is taken into account.

The protocol and foam box used were as described in Exp. #14.

The electrodes were Zr.. The electrode weights in grams were:

Electrode  Before   After
      1      4.72    7.72
      2      4.08    4.04

Despite the lack of increase in electrode weight, a thick white  
coating appeared on the electrodes.  One of the electrodes (2) was  
left in distilled weater overnight and re-weighed. It weighed 4.03 g  
after sitting overnight, indicating the coating on the electrodes is  
not very water soluble.  A small amount of black powder or  
precipitate was noted on the bottom of the cell after the run.  It  
may have been zirconium compound.

"Vol." is only known at the begining and end of the experiment, so a  
(not very well) weighted average of volume consumption (steam  
generation) was spread across the time of the experiment to permit an  
estimate of COP per measurement interval.  The measurement intervals  
were chosen so as to keep a good estimate of input power.

At the start of the experiment the sparks did not turn on immediately  
despite the long prior conditioning of the electrodes, and the high  
starting electrolyte temperature (100 C).  This may be partially due  
to the very high insulatng quality of the film.  It appeared that,  
from the z-y plot on the TDS200 scope that the breakdown voltage  
(either positive or negative) was initially 320 V dropping eventually  
to about 280 V.  Current lead voltage on the y-t plot by 2 msec  
initially, then settled down to 1.2 msec during the high power  
portion of the run. This gives a minimum phase angle of 25.92 deg.  
(power factor .899). However, the x-y I vs V curve was very  
distorted.  It was basically a Z shape, with some hysteresis on top  
from the capacitance.  Kind of like so:

                 /|
                / /
     ----------/ /
    / /---------/
   / /
   |/

Any assesment of overunity (or not) depends on determining the true  
input power in this wave form.

The electrodes glittered during the high power portion of the run,  
and clearly most of the steam was generated then.

The basic data follows:

Time    V rms   I rms   Temp. C P in    P out   Tare    Amb.     
Vol.    t

0       293     0.1210  100.00  0.00    0.00    0.00    25.03    
418.0   0
2       293     0.1210  100.00  35.10   -0.38   9.15    25.03    
418.0   2
4       302     0.0984  100.00  32.26   13.71   9.16    24.85    
417.3   2
6       306     0.0860  100.00  27.74   13.71   9.18    24.70    
416.5   2
8       309     0.0781  100.00  24.97   13.71   9.19    24.59    
415.8   2
10      311     0.0716  100.00  22.97   13.71   9.21    24.49    
415.1   2
12      312     0.0683  100.00  21.57   13.71   9.22    24.44    
414.4   2
14      312     0.0636  100.00  20.37   13.71   9.22    24.38    
413.6   2
16      312     0.0606  100.00  19.18   13.71   9.23    24.33    
412.9   2
18      314     0.0588  100.00  18.50   13.71   9.23    24.28    
412.2   2
20      315     0.0571  100.00  18.04   13.71   9.24    24.26    
411.5   2
21      421     0.2110  100.00  52.87   27.42   9.25    24.15    
410.7   1
22      423     0.2050  100.00  86.90   27.42   9.25    24.13    
410.0   1
24      418     0.2190  100.00  88.24   83.24   9.26    24.08    
405.6   2
26      419     0.2170  100.00  90.32   83.24   9.26    24.09    
401.2   2
28      422     0.2100  100.00  88.87   83.24   9.26    24.07    
396.8   2
30      424     0.2040  100.00  86.68   83.24   9.27    24.00    
392.3   2
32      425     0.2000  100.00  84.89   83.24   9.26    24.24    
387.9   2
34      425     0.2000  100.00  84.15   83.24   9.23    24.41    
383.5   2
36      424     0.2010  100.00  84.26   83.24   9.21    24.58    
379.1   2
38      424     0.2040  100.00  85.00   83.24   9.29    23.16    
374.7   2
40      423     0.2090  100.00  86.58   83.24   9.37    23.16    
370.3   2
42      421     0.2150  100.00  88.57   83.24   9.37    23.16    
365.8   2
44      418     0.2180  100.00  89.91   83.24   9.37    23.16    
361.4   2
46      418     0.2220  100.00  91.04   83.24   9.37    23.16    
357.0   2
48      416     0.2240  100.00  92.06   83.24   9.37    23.16    
352.6   2
50      416     0.2270  100.00  92.87   83.24   9.37    23.16    
348.2   2
52      414     0.2300  100.00  93.88   83.24   9.37    23.16    
343.8   2


Corrected "P out" and energies follows:


P in    P out   Tare    Amb.    Vol.    t       Cor     COP     E  
in    E out
                                                 P out            
joules  joules
0.00    0.00    0.00    25.03   418.0   0       0       0.00     
0       0
35.10   -0.38   9.15    25.03   418.0   2       8.77    0.25     
4212    1052
32.26   13.71   9.16    24.85   417.3   2       22.87   0.71     
8083    3796
27.74   13.71   9.18    24.70   416.5   2       22.89   0.83     
11411   6543
24.97   13.71   9.19    24.59   415.8   2       22.90   0.92     
14408   9291
22.97   13.71   9.21    24.49   415.1   2       22.92   1.00     
17164   12041
21.57   13.71   9.22    24.44   414.4   2       22.92   1.06     
19753   14792
20.37   13.71   9.22    24.38   413.6   2       22.93   1.13     
22197   17543
19.18   13.71   9.23    24.33   412.9   2       22.94   1.20     
24499   20296
18.50   13.71   9.23    24.28   412.2   2       22.94   1.24     
26719   23049
18.04   13.71   9.24    24.26   411.5   2       22.95   1.27     
28884   25803
52.87   27.42   9.25    24.15   410.7   1       36.67   0.69     
32056   28003
86.90   27.42   9.25    24.13   410.0   1       36.67   0.42     
37270   30203
88.24   83.24   9.26    24.08   405.6   2       92.50   1.05     
47858   41303
90.32   83.24   9.26    24.09   401.2   2       92.50   1.02     
58697   52404
88.87   83.24   9.26    24.07   396.8   2       92.50   1.04     
69362   63504
86.68   83.24   9.27    24.00   392.3   2       92.51   1.07     
79764   74605
84.89   83.24   9.26    24.24   387.9   2       92.50   1.09     
89950   85705
84.15   83.24   9.23    24.41   383.5   2       92.47   1.10     
100048  96802
84.26   83.24   9.21    24.58   379.1   2       92.45   1.10     
110160  107897
85.00   83.24   9.29    23.16   374.7   2       92.53   1.09     
120360  119000
86.58   83.24   9.37    23.16   370.3   2       92.62   1.07     
130749  130114
88.57   83.24   9.37    23.16   365.8   2       92.62   1.05     
141377  141228
89.91   83.24   9.37    23.16   361.4   2       92.62   1.03     
152166  152342
91.04   83.24   9.37    23.16   357.0   2       92.62   1.02     
163091  163456
92.06   83.24   9.37    23.16   352.6   2       92.62   1.01     
174139  174570
92.87   83.24   9.37    23.16   348.2   2       92.62   1.00     
185283  185684
93.88   83.24   9.37    23.16   343.8   2       92.62   0.99     
196548  196798
                                                         1.00

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Featured_articles

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Featured_article_removal_candidate
s

-----Original Message-----
From: Stephen A. Lawrence

I'm not too clear on exactly how a "featured article" is "featured", 
however. 
 


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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 29 09:18:21 2005
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Subject: Re: Wikipedia skeptics are upset
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It appears that the inclusion of cold fusion as a "featured article" is 
entirely meaningless.  So, it is featured on one prominent page (one that I 
have never visited over the time I've used Wikipedia), along with a lot of 
other articles.  If people are looking for cold fusion information, they'll 
do a search for it and find it regardless of whether or not is has 
"featured" status.  Seems like the skeptics are just making an issue out of 
nothing.

I do think the Wikipedia article is one of the best resouces for cold fusion 
information, especially the links it provides.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: <hohlrauml6d netscape.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2005 12:04 PM
Subject: Re: Wikipedia skeptics are upset


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Featured_articles
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Featured_article_removal_candidate
> s
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stephen A. Lawrence
>
> I'm not too clear on exactly how a "featured article" is "featured", 
> however.
>
>
> ___________________________________________________
> Try the New Netscape Mail Today!
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 29 09:52:29 2005
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I don't agree with this. Google "Patterson Power Cell" and look at the 
COPs he was getting. Either this product had a strong potential for a 
new energy source or it worked by some "expendible" as Mr. Jones has 
discussed. And it was a light water cell! I remember a decade ago when 
there were whisperings of excitement about Motorola buying the cell 
technology. I can't help but believe that this energy "threat" was 
squashed (game, set, match). 
 
Speaking of solid state OU devices, what ever happened to Wingate A. 
Lambertson's "World into Neutrinos" Cermet technology? I haven't seen 
anything on him in almost five years. 
 
-----Original Message----- 
From: John Coviello 
 
Actually, I would propose that cold fusion might die from another cause 
of death, irrelevency. For one thing cold fusion might be provable 
beyond a doubt in coming years, but it might not be scalable to be 
useful in energy production and might just remain a useless laboratory 
curiosity for decades that may or may not one day be applied to some 
useful purpose. 
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 29 09:54:29 2005
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I don't agree with this. Google "Patterson Power Cell" and look at the 
COPs he was getting. Either this product had a strong potential for a 
new energy source or it worked by some "expendible" as Mr. Jones has 
discussed. And it was a light water cell! I remember a decade ago when 
there were whisperings of excitement about Motorola buying the cell 
technology. I can't help but believe that this energy "threat" was 
squashed (game, set, match). 
 
Speaking of solid state OU devices, what ever happened to Wingate A. 
Lambertson's "World into Neutrinos" Cermet technology? I haven't seen 
anything on him in almost five years. 
 
-----Original Message----- 
From: John Coviello 
 
Actually, I would propose that cold fusion might die from another cause 
of death, irrelevency. For one thing cold fusion might be provable 
beyond a doubt in coming years, but it might not be scalable to be 
useful in energy production and might just remain a useless laboratory 
curiosity for decades that may or may not one day be applied to some 
useful purpose. 
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 29 09:59:27 2005
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This is not why we have no PHEV. Go back and read these from my 
previous post as to why Prius is not a PHEV. Cobasys (Chevron), who 
owns the battery technology, SUED Panasonic for building large 
batteries for the EV RAV4. It cost Panasonic $30M, back royalties, and 
Panasonic had to agree to build no more large format NiMH batteries. 
They are likely limited to 10 Ahrs. 
 
http://tinyurl.com/8ndbc 
 
http://tinyurl.com/d8493 
 
There *will* be a PHEV Prius soon using LiIon technology. Today, I 
won't buy Chevron fuel nor Citgo (Chevez) fuel. 
 
-----Original Message----- 
From: John Coviello 
 
But as we know, the auto companies are dragging their feet on 
implementing such cost saving technologies as plug-in hybrid cars, so 
what hope does a truly revolutionary technology like cold fusion have 
in this world? 

(note, john has responded to my last two emails; but, because his 
"reply to" is set to his name I am forwarding these to vortex.  I'll 
leave it up to john to respond to vortex if he wishes.)
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Sorry for the double post.  Some people have their "reply to" field set 
to their email address.  I sometimes forget to check that the email is 
going back to the list.  This can be prevented by setting the "reply 
to" to a null field.

-----Original Message-----
From: hohlrauml6d netscape.net
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Got to go for a while - its tax time.

Horace Heffner

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In reply to  John Coviello's message of Thu, 29 Dec 2005 10:58:45
-0500:
Hi,
[snip]
>Cold fusion will eventually prevail if it can be proven to be reliable and 
>cost effective.  As we all know, cost considerations are what mainly drives 
>technological implementation in this world.  If someone starts selling cold 
>fusion powered cars that can be operated for $1.00 a week on heavy water, 
>obviously the public will flock to such a technology that would save tham 
>$100s of dollars on their transportation costs.

Make that 0.4 cents / week of heavy water. :)

(Based on $400/L heavy water, which with the availability of cheap
energy and the increase in combined desalination/deuterium plants
will probably drop considerably).
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

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Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 20:30:25 +0000
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From: Grimer <f.grimer grimer2.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Ooops! Fancy that! 8-)
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At 11:17 am 29/12/2005 -0500, hohlraum wrote:

> I see your point, 

Goody, goody, gumdrops.  8-) 

> but consider this:  when a single photon... 

Hold it right there. It may surprise you to know that
not everybody believes in photons. People such as
Caroline Thompson for instance - one smart cookie, 
she - fearless too.    ;-)

Thompson writes:

============================================================
"That light can be converted into electricity is now common 
knowledge, but does this mean that individual "photons" 
cause the ejection of individual "electrons"?  Of course 
not!  Before the "deification" of Einstein by the New York 
Times after the claimed confirmation of his General Theory 
of Relativity -- the 1919 eclipse data that confirmed his 
prediction of the bending of starlight -- Einstein was just 
about on his own in thinking the light could exist as 
localised "photons"  (See Forgotten History).  Moreover, in 
the real world there are many different variations on the 
effect, and it merges with "thermionic emission" and other 
known effects.  Presumably the complete theory should also 
cover Compton scattering, in which light (gamma rays) causes 
the ejection of electrons but leaves spare energy which goes 
into the production of further gamma rays, of reduced energy.  

<snip>

That the process cannot be a matter of individual photon-
electron interactions is clear, one reason being simply 
that photons do not exist.  Another reason is the scale 
of things: the wavelengths of the light are very much 
greater, in most cases, than the dimensions of an electron.  
In my view (shared by others such as Millikan) the light 
arrives as a complete wave, spreading over the entire 
receiving surface.  In the case I have thought about most 
-- the application of the effect in "photomultipliers" of 
the type used by Alain Aspect in his Bell test experiments 
-- it influences the electric field throughout the material 
of the photocathode.  The waves will suffer both self-
interference and interactions with pre-existing oscillations 
of electrons.  Where these two effects combine favourably, 
some threshold is exceeded and an electron gains enough 
energy to escape."
============================================================


Yeah, well. The closest I ever got to her insights was to
see electron emission as the manifestation of "activation
energy" analogous to the chemical activation that I 
investigated in relation to deterioration of zirconia 
glass fibre used for reinforcing cement.

But my strongest reason for not believing in photons is 
more philosophical than physical - more to do with my
understanding of the totality of existence than the 
nature of the material world.

All of which means that the rest...

------------------------------------------------------
> leaves a star, being a wave structure, that photon 
> extends radially in all directions.  When I look 
> at the star and the photon strikes the rod in my 
> retina, all the energy of *that* photon is absorbed 
> by my eye.
-----------------------------------------------------

          ...is a bit academic - N'est pas?

> "Collegerunt ergo et impleverunt duodecim cofinos 
> fragmentorum ex quinque panibus hordiaciis quae 
> superfuerunt his qui manducaverunt"

It's the duodecim which interests me more than the 
fragmentorum.  <g>

I'll leave you with this thought.

Twelve dinners
Eight guests 
Four for the staff

Cheers,

Frank



>-----Original Message-----
>From: Grimer
>
>         R(x.y.z) [proportional]  T^12
>___________________________________________________



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Subject: Re: 10 years have past since PowerGen 95
Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 16:06:26 -0500
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---- Original Message ----- 
From: "Robin van Spaandonk" <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2005 3:27 PM
Subject: Re: 10 years have past since PowerGen 95


> In reply to  John Coviello's message of Thu, 29 Dec 2005 10:58:45
> -0500:
> Hi,
> [snip]
>>Cold fusion will eventually prevail if it can be proven to be reliable and
>>cost effective.  As we all know, cost considerations are what mainly 
>>drives
>>technological implementation in this world.  If someone starts selling 
>>cold
>>fusion powered cars that can be operated for $1.00 a week on heavy water,
>>obviously the public will flock to such a technology that would save tham
>>$100s of dollars on their transportation costs.
>
> Make that 0.4 cents / week of heavy water. :)
>
> (Based on $400/L heavy water, which with the availability of cheap
> energy and the increase in combined desalination/deuterium plants
> will probably drop considerably).
> Regards,
>
> Robin van Spaandonk

Well that's even better then.  I currently spend about $120 per month on 
gasoline (it was around $180 per month after the hurricanes this summer). 
If I could reduce that cost to 2 cents per month using cold fusion, you bet 
I would and so would everyone else.  Economics drives most innovations. 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 29 13:44:20 2005
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Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 21:43:35 +0000
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From: Grimer <f.grimer grimer2.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Ooops! Fancy that! 8-)
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At 07:47 am 29/12/2005 -0600, you wrote:

> Hi Frank,
>
> Between the chuckle I can almost hear across 
> the big pond, the latino blend of humor and my 
> lack of understanding of how you arrived at T^12 
> gives the morning sunshine a lift. Please go 
> over that jump again.
>
> Richard

..................................................
Before I start, to save other Vorts from going
over all this again I tried to send the following
as a private email. Unfortunately it was bounced
back for reasons unknown to me.
..................................................

You sound as though you need a historical resumé  - 
so I'll go through it from the beginning. 

The 12th power law thing started with my discovery 
of the 12th, 8th and 4th power laws for the vapour 
pressures of ice, water and steam respectively. 
They were, of course, power laws from local temperature 
origins and not from the standard temperature origin 
of -273 deg.C. Professor Chaplin confirmed the 
existence of these power laws and put them in a 
refined form on his excellent web-site for water.

The reason these power laws haven't be discovered 
before (even though the data has been around for the 
best part of a century) is because no one seems to 
have cottoned on to the idea of "local absolute" 
as opposed to "standard absolute" temperatures.

Now it seemed obvious to me that these simple 
integral power laws were telling us something 
important. It also seemed obvious that they had 
two components, a dimensional component 
(powers 1, 2 and 3) and a quasi Stefan-Casimir 
component (power 4).

So the three equations are really  

   Vapour Pressure ice    =   constant. [T^4]^3  =  T^12

   Vapour Pressure water  =   constant. [T^4]^3  =  T^8

   Vapour Pressure steam  =   constant. [T^4]^1  =  T^4

Then I started thinking about Casimir and how it 
related to the reduction in Beta atmosphere pressure 
with metal cavities such as those which form when 
straining metals to failure in tension. Interestingly 
enough, most articles which discuss Casimir refer 
to it as an internal tensile force. They seem very 
reluctant to view Casimir as an external compressive 
force. Maybe they don't want to humble themselves by 
recognising there is something out there and we are 
not self-sufficient.  8-)

I asked myself what would happen if I had 3 orthogonal 
sets of Casimir plates, perfectly sealed against the 
Beta-atmosphere where they met, and I pulled them 
apart thus expanding the cavity they enclosed. 
I realised that this would give me three 4th power 
laws, mutually at right angles.

But how did these three power laws combine? 
They had to be multiplicative. The vapour pressure laws 
indicated that. 

But how could I model that. The concept of the space 
expanding one dimension at a time from a small initial 
sphere to a prolate sphere, from a prolate sphere to 
an oblate sphere and finally from an oblate sphere to 
a large final sphere gave me the model I needed.

Then it suddenly dawned on me that there was something 
very dodgy about the foundation stone of modern quantum 
theory, the Stefan Radiation Law. To vary your analogy, 
slightly, it was a one legged stool.  

That led to this following first post in the Ooops thread;

====================================================
Ooops! Fancy that! 8-)
Grimer
Fri, 16 Dec 2005 23:07:12 -0800

I've just realised one of the consequences 
of the 3D Casimir Law.

Stefan's fourth power law only presents a one 
dimensional view of things. In fact the energy 
density goes down according to (LAC)^(-12) where 
LAC is Local Absolute Compreture and Compreture 
is the reciprocal of temperature as measured 
from the local "absolute" zero.

That why the Vapour Pressure vs. temperature 
is a twelfth power law.

Oh dearie me. The physicists won't be pleased. 
But I will certainly enjoy the schadenfreude.  8-)

Cheers,

Frank Grimer
====================================================

and I remember, you seemed to be the only person 
who understood what I was driving at.

However most people are not very good at three 
dimensional modelling based on symbols only, so 
I wanted to give them something related to a 
physical object like your three legged stool. 
Now the obvious object to choose was the spherical 
black body which was originally used in the 
experiment from which Stefan's Law was derived, 
namely a sphere with a small hole. It was only 
then a matter of thinking out the best verbalization 
to get people to see that the experiment only 
presented a truncated view of reality.

I hope my explanation has answered your general 
query - but if you have any specific points I 
will do my best to answer them.

Cheers,

Frank


>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "Grimer" <f.grimer grimer2.freeserve.co.uk>
>To: <vortex-L eskimo.com>
>Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2005 10:35 PM
>Subject: Re: Ooops! Fancy that! 8-)
>
>
>> Experimentally a black body can be improvised by taking
>> a hollow ball - coating the walls with soot and then
>> drilling a hole in it along the x axis.
>>
>> If we warm this object - the radiation seen from the x
>> direction is given by Stefan's law:
>>
>>             R(x)   [proportional]   T^4
>>
>> If we now drill holes along the y and z axes then the
>> radiation seen from the y and z directions will be
>>
>>             R(y)   [proportional]   T^4
>>
>>             R(z)   [proportional]   T^4
>>
>> But each of these views are one dimensional views of
>> a three dimensional entity, i.e. the radiation in the
>> black body.
>>
>> Combining the three partial views into one whole view
>> gives us,
>>
>>   R(x).R(y).R(z) [proportional] T^4.T^4.T^4.
>>
>>         R(x.y.z) [proportional]  T^12
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Frank Grimer




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 29 14:49:50 2005
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Okay, let me try this again.  Stefan's law may be used to predict the 
temperature of the sun.  This prediction has been shown to be accurate 
experimentally.

-----Original Message-----
From: Grimer

At 11:17 am 29/12/2005 -0500, hohlraum wrote:

> I see your point,

Goody, goody, gumdrops.  8-)
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Okay, let me try this again.  Stefan's law may be used to predict the 
temperature of the sun.  This prediction has been shown to be accurate 
experimentally.

-----Original Message-----
From: Grimer

At 11:17 am 29/12/2005 -0500, hohlraum wrote:

> I see your point,

Goody, goody, gumdrops.  8-)
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Subject: OT Re: Interesting Michael Crichton Speech on complexity
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I read this Crichton speech. While I see his point, I have to severely =
disagree with his interpretation of what are carefully selected =
snapshots of environmental and other views. He even answers his own =
objections to the Y2K situation. Like many problems of this type, dire =
warnings, often couched in overdramatised language, ARE NECESSARY to get =
people  moving. The fact that Y2K caused minimal disruption is because =
of the warnings and the consequential efforts to rewrite and adapt =
programmes and computers. Like many "deniers" he seems to be using a =
post facto analysis to say that because nothing much happened, the =
original warnings were baseless scare mongering. This type of thinking =
is highly dangerous because such people often go on to apply such =
hindsight to current "dire warnings" and draw the conclusion that they =
will prove to be just as inconsequential, therefore no effort should be =
made to address the problem because  past experience shows that these =
problems solve themselves or are not problems at all in the first place. =
Madness - utter illogical madness!
    Crichton mentions the 70's fears of global cooling and human created =
ice age but tricks us into thinking that we are reading an excerpt from =
current climate fears. The fears then were that particles, smoke and =
soot/acid from combustion would block off sunlight at high altitude and =
cause an accelerating cooling of Earth leading to a new ice age. I =
shared those fears at that time. The theory of greenhouse gas warming =
had yet to appear or was not widespread. This gibe had been slung at =
environmentalists before along the lines of " now in the 90's you are =
warning about global warming - in the 70's you were scare mongering =
about global cooling - make up your minds!" The truth is that then, as =
now, environmentalists were quoting the best scientific knowledge of the =
time and informing the general public, who had a right to know - not =
just the "elite" of scientists and policy makers. Ironically, the very =
soot/acid particles etc that we were warning about then have been proved =
to genuinely have a cooling effect that has mitigated the effects of =
increasing levels of greenhouse gases and thus have masked the =
underlying global warming. We weren't wrong, we were terribly right - =
people have the power to royally screw up their planetary environment if =
they don't listen to warnings, take heed and take action to avoid the =
imminent threats and precautionary action to avoid the long term =
threats...

Nick Palmer
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I read this Crichton speech. While I =
see his point,=20
I have to severely disagree with his interpretation of&nbsp;what are =
carefully=20
selected snapshots of environmental and other&nbsp;views. He even =
answers his=20
own objections to the Y2K situation. Like many problems of this type, =
dire=20
warnings, often couched in overdramatised language, ARE NECESSARY to get =

people&nbsp; moving. The fact that Y2K caused minimal disruption is =
because of=20
the warnings and the consequential efforts to rewrite and adapt =
programmes and=20
computers. Like many "deniers" he seems to be using a post facto =
analysis to say=20
that because nothing much happened, the original warnings =
were&nbsp;baseless=20
scare&nbsp;mongering. This type of thinking is highly dangerous because =
such=20
people often go on to apply such hindsight to current "dire warnings" =
and draw=20
the conclusion that they will prove to be just as inconsequential, =
therefore no=20
effort should be made to address the problem&nbsp;because&nbsp; past =
experience=20
shows that these problems solve themselves or are not problems =
at&nbsp;all in=20
the first place. Madness -&nbsp;utter&nbsp;illogical =
madness!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Crichton mentions =
the 70's fears=20
of global cooling and human created ice age but tricks us into thinking =
that we=20
are reading an excerpt from current climate fears. The fears then were =
that=20
particles, smoke&nbsp;and soot/acid&nbsp;from&nbsp;combustion would =
block off=20
sunlight at high altitude and cause an accelerating cooling of Earth =
leading to=20
a new ice age. I shared those fears at that time. The theory of =
greenhouse gas=20
warming had yet to appear or was not widespread.&nbsp;This gibe had been =
slung=20
at environmentalists before along the lines of " now in the =
90's&nbsp;you are=20
warning about global warming - in the 70's you were scare mongering =
about global=20
cooling - make up your minds!" The truth is that then, as now, =
environmentalists=20
were quoting the best scientific knowledge of the time and informing the =
general=20
public, who had a right to know - not just the "elite" of scientists and =
policy=20
makers. Ironically, the very soot/acid particles etc&nbsp;that we were =
warning=20
about then have been proved to genuinely have a cooling effect that has=20
mitigated the effects of increasing levels of greenhouse gases and thus=20
have&nbsp;masked the underlying global warming. We weren't wrong, we =
were=20
terribly right - people have the power to royally screw up their =
planetary=20
environment if they don't listen to warnings, take heed and take action =
to avoid=20
the imminent threats and precautionary action to avoid the long term=20
threats...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Nick Palmer</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 29 17:41:49 2005
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: 10 years have past since PowerGen 95
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 12:41:16 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Robin van Spaandonk's message of Thu, 29 Dec 2005
12:17:07 +1100:
Hi,
Previously I wrote:
[snip]
>>Velocity = 2 p Fc l   meters/second
>>
>>Velocity = ( 2 p ) [Mc2/h] ( 1.409 x 10-15 )   meters/second
>
>First, if l is the classical electron radius, and M the mass of
>the electron then the velocity works out to 2.188E6 m/s (also
>assuming p stands for Pi).

BTW, this velocity is the fine structure constant x the speed of
light. It is also exactly the same velocity as the rotation
velocity of the electron in the Bohr orbit.

In short the velocity with which the toroidal electron rotates
about both its axes is identical, and both are equal to alpha x c.

This may be the maximum velocity at which laminar flow is possible
in the aether.

 
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

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Subject: Re: 10 years have past since PowerGen 95
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Robin

> This may be the maximum velocity at which laminar flow is 
> possible
> in the aether.

Aren't all of Mills' sub-ground-state electrons supposedly moving 
at far greater velocity than this ? 

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Subject: Re: Ooops! Fancy that! 8-)
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BlankHi Frank, well said. It fits.
 My specific purpose for asking for more, besides enjoying the =
discourse, was to set my mind thinking out my problem with  most =
theories regarding the Hutchinson Effect since I have difficulty with =
some references they make to ghosts and hobgobblins.<grin>
 http://www.americanantigravity.com/hutchison.html

Richard

Grimer wrote...
The 12th power law thing started with my discovery=20
of the 12th, 8th and 4th power laws for the vapour=20
pressures of ice, water and steam respectively.=20
They were, of course, power laws from local temperature=20
origins and not from the standard temperature origin=20
of -273 deg.C. Professor Chaplin confirmed the=20
existence of these power laws and put them in a=20
refined form on his excellent web-site for water.

The reason these power laws haven't be discovered=20
before (even though the data has been around for the=20
best part of a century) is because no one seems to=20
have cottoned on to the idea of "local absolute"=20
as opposed to "standard absolute" temperatures.

Now it seemed obvious to me that these simple=20
integral power laws were telling us something=20
important. It also seemed obvious that they had=20
two components, a dimensional component=20
(powers 1, 2 and 3) and a quasi Stefan-Casimir=20
component (power 4).

So the three equations are really =20

   Vapour Pressure ice    =3D   constant. [T^4]^3  =3D  T^12

   Vapour Pressure water  =3D   constant. [T^4]^3  =3D  T^8

   Vapour Pressure steam  =3D   constant. [T^4]^1  =3D  T^4

Then I started thinking about Casimir and how it=20
related to the reduction in Beta atmosphere pressure=20
with metal cavities such as those which form when=20
straining metals to failure in tension. Interestingly=20
enough, most articles which discuss Casimir refer=20
to it as an internal tensile force. They seem very=20
reluctant to view Casimir as an external compressive=20
force. Maybe they don't want to humble themselves by=20
recognising there is something out there and we are=20
not self-sufficient.  8-)

I asked myself what would happen if I had 3 orthogonal=20
sets of Casimir plates, perfectly sealed against the=20
Beta-atmosphere where they met, and I pulled them=20
apart thus expanding the cavity they enclosed.=20
I realised that this would give me three 4th power=20
laws, mutually at right angles.

But how did these three power laws combine?=20
They had to be multiplicative. The vapour pressure laws=20
indicated that.=20

But how could I model that. The concept of the space=20
expanding one dimension at a time from a small initial=20
sphere to a prolate sphere, from a prolate sphere to=20
an oblate sphere and finally from an oblate sphere to=20
a large final sphere gave me the model I needed.

Then it suddenly dawned on me that there was something=20
very dodgy about the foundation stone of modern quantum=20
theory, the Stefan Radiation Law. To vary your analogy,=20
slightly, it was a one legged stool. =20

That led to this following first post in the Ooops thread;

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D
Ooops! Fancy that! 8-)
Grimer
Fri, 16 Dec 2005 23:07:12 -0800

I've just realised one of the consequences=20
of the 3D Casimir Law.

Stefan's fourth power law only presents a one=20
dimensional view of things. In fact the energy=20
density goes down according to (LAC)^(-12) where=20
LAC is Local Absolute Compreture and Compreture=20
is the reciprocal of temperature as measured=20
from the local "absolute" zero.

That why the Vapour Pressure vs. temperature=20
is a twelfth power law.

Oh dearie me. The physicists won't be pleased.=20
But I will certainly enjoy the schadenfreude.  8-)

Cheers,

Frank Grimer
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D

and I remember, you seemed to be the only person=20
who understood what I was driving at.

However most people are not very good at three=20
dimensional modelling based on symbols only, so=20
I wanted to give them something related to a=20
physical object like your three legged stool.=20
Now the obvious object to choose was the spherical=20
black body which was originally used in the=20
experiment from which Stefan's Law was derived,=20
namely a sphere with a small hole. It was only=20
then a matter of thinking out the best verbalization=20
to get people to see that the experiment only=20
presented a truncated view of reality.

I hope my explanation has answered your general=20
query - but if you have any specific points I=20
will do my best to answer them.

Cheers,

Frank



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background=3Dcid:000701c60ce9$229e97d0$c5037841 xptower>
<DIV>Hi Frank, well said. It fits.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;My specific purpose for asking for more, besides enjoying the =

discourse, was to set my mind thinking out&nbsp;my problem with =
&nbsp;most=20
theories regarding the Hutchinson Effect since I have difficulty with =
some=20
references they make to ghosts and hobgobblins.&lt;grin&gt;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;<A=20
href=3D"http://www.americanantigravity.com/hutchison.html">http://www.ame=
ricanantigravity.com/hutchison.html</A><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Richard</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Grimer wrote...</DIV>
<P>The 12th power law thing started with my discovery <BR>of the 12th, =
8th and=20
4th power laws for the vapour <BR>pressures of ice, water and steam=20
respectively. <BR>They were, of course, power laws from local =
temperature=20
<BR>origins and not from the standard temperature origin <BR>of -273 =
deg.C.=20
Professor Chaplin confirmed the <BR>existence of these power laws and =
put them=20
in a <BR>refined form on his excellent web-site for water.<BR><BR>The =
reason=20
these power laws haven't be discovered <BR>before (even though the data =
has been=20
around for the <BR>best part of a century) is because no one seems to =
<BR>have=20
cottoned on to the idea of "local absolute" <BR>as opposed to "standard=20
absolute" temperatures.<BR><BR>Now it seemed obvious to me that these =
simple=20
<BR>integral power laws were telling us something <BR>important. It also =
seemed=20
obvious that they had <BR>two components, a dimensional component =
<BR>(powers 1,=20
2 and 3) and a quasi Stefan-Casimir <BR>component (power 4).<BR><BR>So =
the three=20
equations are really&nbsp; <BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; Vapour Pressure=20
ice&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =3D&nbsp;&nbsp; constant. [T^4]^3&nbsp; =3D&nbsp;=20
T^12<BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; Vapour Pressure water&nbsp; =3D&nbsp;&nbsp; =
constant.=20
[T^4]^3&nbsp; =3D&nbsp; T^8<BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; Vapour Pressure =
steam&nbsp;=20
=3D&nbsp;&nbsp; constant. [T^4]^1&nbsp; =3D&nbsp; T^4<BR><BR>Then I =
started thinking=20
about Casimir and how it <BR>related to the reduction in Beta atmosphere =

pressure <BR>with metal cavities such as those which form when =
<BR>straining=20
metals to failure in tension. Interestingly <BR>enough, most articles =
which=20
discuss Casimir refer <BR>to it as an internal tensile force. They seem =
very=20
<BR>reluctant to view Casimir as an external compressive <BR>force. =
Maybe they=20
don't want to humble themselves by <BR>recognising there is something =
out there=20
and we are <BR>not self-sufficient.&nbsp; 8-)<BR><BR>I asked myself what =
would=20
happen if I had 3 orthogonal <BR>sets of Casimir plates, perfectly =
sealed=20
against the <BR>Beta-atmosphere where they met, and I pulled them =
<BR>apart thus=20
expanding the cavity they enclosed. <BR>I realised that this would give =
me three=20
4th power <BR>laws, mutually at right angles.<BR><BR>But how did these =
three=20
power laws combine? <BR>They had to be multiplicative. The vapour =
pressure laws=20
<BR>indicated that. <BR><BR>But how could I model that. The concept of =
the space=20
<BR>expanding one dimension at a time from a small initial <BR>sphere to =
a=20
prolate sphere, from a prolate sphere to <BR>an oblate sphere and =
finally from=20
an oblate sphere to <BR>a large final sphere gave me the model I=20
needed.<BR><BR>Then it suddenly dawned on me that there was something =
<BR>very=20
dodgy about the foundation stone of modern quantum <BR>theory, the =
Stefan=20
Radiation Law. To vary your analogy, <BR>slightly, it was a one legged=20
stool.&nbsp; <BR><BR>That led to this following first post in the Ooops=20
thread;<BR><BR>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<BR>Ooops!=20
Fancy that! 8-)<BR>Grimer<BR>Fri, 16 Dec 2005 23:07:12 -0800<BR><BR>I've =
just=20
realised one of the consequences <BR>of the 3D Casimir =
Law.<BR><BR>Stefan's=20
fourth power law only presents a one <BR>dimensional view of things. In =
fact the=20
energy <BR>density goes down according to (LAC)^(-12) where <BR>LAC is =
Local=20
Absolute Compreture and Compreture <BR>is the reciprocal of temperature =
as=20
measured <BR>from the local "absolute" zero.<BR><BR>That why the Vapour =
Pressure=20
vs. temperature <BR>is a twelfth power law.<BR><BR>Oh dearie me. The =
physicists=20
won't be pleased. <BR>But I will certainly enjoy the =
schadenfreude.&nbsp;=20
8-)<BR><BR>Cheers,<BR><BR>Frank=20
Grimer<BR>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
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=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<BR><BR>and I=20
remember, you seemed to be the only person <BR>who understood what I was =
driving=20
at.<BR><BR>However most people are not very good at three =
<BR>dimensional=20
modelling based on symbols only, so <BR>I wanted to give them something =
related=20
to a <BR>physical object like your three legged stool. <BR>Now the =
obvious=20
object to choose was the spherical <BR>black body which was originally =
used in=20
the <BR>experiment from which Stefan's Law was derived, <BR>namely a =
sphere with=20
a small hole. It was only <BR>then a matter of thinking out the best=20
verbalization <BR>to get people to see that the experiment only =
<BR>presented a=20
truncated view of reality.<BR><BR>I hope my explanation has answered =
your=20
general <BR>query - but if you have any specific points I <BR>will do my =
best to=20
answer them.<BR><BR>Cheers,<BR><BR>Frank<BR><BR></P></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 29 18:55:04 2005
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RC Macaulay wrote:
> Hi Frank,
> Between the chuckle I can almost hear across the big pond, the latino 
> blend of humor and my lack of understanding of how you arrived at T^12 
> gives the morning sunshine a lift. Please go over that jump again.
> Richard

Hopefully someone will correct my understanding if I'm wrong, but it 
appears that Grimer has multiplied together the three components of the 
radiation 3-vector expressed in Cartesian coordinates.  That _product_ 
goes as the twelfth power.

What that product means, however, is beyond me.

In other words, if "R" is the intensity 3-vector, and its components are 
R_x, R_y, R_z, then, using "*" for multiplication, we have


     R = (R_x, R_y, R_z) = (K * T^4, J * T^4, L * T^4)


where K, J, and L are functions of the observer's location.

Then we also have

     R_x * R_y * R_z = (K*J*L) * T^12

Right?

> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Grimer" 
> <f.grimer grimer2.freeserve.co.uk>
> To: <vortex-L eskimo.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2005 10:35 PM
> Subject: Re: Ooops! Fancy that! 8-)
> 
> 
>> Experimentally a black body can be improvised by taking
>> a hollow ball - coating the walls with soot and then
>> drilling a hole in it along the x axis.
>>
>> If we warm this object - the radiation seen from the x
>> direction is given by Stefan's law:
>>
>>             R(x)   [proportional]   T^4
>>
>> If we now drill holes along the y and z axes then the
>> radiation seen from the y and z directions will be
>>
>>             R(y)   [proportional]   T^4
>>
>>             R(z)   [proportional]   T^4
>>
>> But each of these views are one dimensional views of
>> a three dimensional entity, i.e. the radiation in the
>> black body.
>>
>> Combining the three partial views into one whole view
>> gives us,
>>
>>   R(x).R(y).R(z) [proportional] T^4.T^4.T^4.
>>
>>         R(x.y.z) [proportional]  T^12
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Frank Grimer
>>
>> ==========================================================
>> et omnis qui audit verba mea haec et non facit ea similis
>> erit viro stulto qui aedificavit domum suam supra harenam
>> et descendit pluvia et venerunt flumina et flaverunt venti
>> et inruerunt in domum illam et cecidit et fuit ruina eius
>>                      magna    8-)
>> ==========================================================
>>
>>
>>
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 29 19:02:47 2005
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Subject: Re: 10 years have past since PowerGen 95
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Jed Rothwell wrote:
> John Coviello wrote:
> 
>>> My greatest fear vis a vis cold fusion is that it will die when the 
>>> researchers all die.
>>
>> That's not going to happen Jed.  If cold fusion is indeed a real and 
>> viable scientific discovery, the death of researchers will not end its 
>> development. Perhaps their deaths will slow cold fusion research down, 
>> but if something is real in nature it will eventually be developed by 
>> someone.  The only way cold fusion will totally die is if it has been 
>> an artifact all along, gross experimental error, noise.
> 
> 
> How do you know that? People often say things like: "Science always 
> works in the end; valuable data is never truly lost." In other fields, 
> valuable data and important techniques are lost all the time. I know of 
> examples in computer programming, shipbuilding, metallurgy and many 
> other fields. Programming techniques which were well known in the 1970s 
> are unheard of today. I purchased a commercial program a couple years 
> ago to accomplish one of the tasks at LENR-CANR.org. It took 10 minutes 
> to execute. I wrote an old-fashioned Pascal program that ran in 20 
> seconds and did a better job.
> 
> In his latest book, Kenneth Deffeyes wrote: "the number of active 
> exploration geologists in petroleum plus mining in the world is a few 
> thousand, probably fewer than 10,000.

There is a population limit below which an isolated community tends to 
become decadent, and lose information as time goes by rather than 
gaining it.  I don't know what the number is but 10,000 sounds 'way less 
than it.

There is, I believe, evidence that at least some small isolated island 
societies have gone extinct as a result of intellectual decadence 
eventually costing them the basic skills needed to survive (no 
references, sorry).

Textbooks can hopefully make a difference here, but as you point out 
they don't capture on-the-job knowledge, which can be a major part of 
what is known in some disciplines.


> Almost all the students with a 
> natural science and today are majoring in environmental studies or 
> ecology. The problem involves more than just the colleges and 
> universities. Most of us learned an enormous amount on the job from our 
> older colleagues, skilled and experienced geologists. When those threads 
> are broken, there is a permanent loss." "Beyond Oil," p. 179
> 
> Why should experimental science be different from these other fields?
> 
> - Jed
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 30 02:30:31 2005
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Subject: Re: Ooops! Fancy that! 8-)
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At 08:31 pm 29/12/2005 -0600, you wrote:
>BlankHi Frank, well said. It fits.
> My specific purpose for asking for more, besides enjoying the discourse, was to set my mind thinking out my problem with  most theories regarding the Hutchinson Effect since I have difficulty with some references they make to ghosts and hobgobblins.<grin>
> http://www.americanantigravity.com/hutchison.html
>
>Richard


Though I believe in ghosts - and hobgoblins providing they
are demonic - I'm confident that the Hutchison Effect involves
neither entities - as no doubt are you.  8-) 

Small point - Hutchison only has one n, which
is important if you want to use a search engine.

Frank

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At 05:46 pm 29/12/2005 -0500, hohlraum wrote:

> Okay, let me try this again.  

> Stefan's law may be used to predict the 
> temperature of the sun.  
>
> This prediction has been shown to be accurate 
> experimentally.



In ancient Greece there was a man called Eugorus who 
discovered the law which connected the diameter and 
the ares of disks. 

He found that the Eugorus Law may be used to predict 
the area of those two disks up in the sky, the sun 
and the moon. 

And, as you might choose to put it.

"This prediction has been shown to be accurate experimentally."

And I would want to argue with that, would I.  8-)

However, in viewing the sun and the moon merely 
as disks don't you think you might be missing 
out on something?  8-)

A 6 inch cube is not a 6 cubic inch cube - and one gets
a different feeling about a 6 inch cube when one refers
to it as a 216 cubic inch cube.

[To save you looking up Eugorus on Google -  
   that was just a parable  ;-)  ]


Cheers - and a Happy New Year.

Frank

==================================================
Who is she that comes forth as the morning rising, 
     fair as the moon, bright as the sun, 
   terrible as an army set in battle array?
==================================================

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----- Original Message -----=20
From: <hohlrauml6d netscape.net>

> Okay, let me try this again.  Stefan's law may be used to predict the=20
> temperature of the sun.  This prediction has been shown to be accurate =

> experimentally.

Well Stefan's Law can be *made* backwardly applicable to many situations =
(by applying exceptions to the exceptions in retrospect) but it was =
historically an extremely poor predictor of stellar photon activity, and =
is grossly misleading as to the temperature of the sun - depending on =
whose assumptions you use.=20

What exactly were you referring to by "experimentally"?

Sorry I missed the first part of this thread. Stefan's Law, of course, =
states that the total amount of light emitted from a blackbody =
(perfectly emitting object - of which there are none) is proportional to =
the fourth power of the object's temperature. In the case of the sun, we =
can only estimate its internal temperature so the process involves =
layers of assumptions. Eddington was one of the first to try to apply of =
Stefan's Law to the sun and found it would result in a tremendous energy =
output which is not justified by observation. The error is many orders =
of magnitude. This problem was "solved" (i.e. rationalized) by later =
scientists by applying their own (often more erroneous) =
counter-assumptions.

First of all the sun emits very few X-rays, assuming that the main power =
source is nuclear. Indeed, most of the output of energy occurs in the =
so-called "visible region." That is, the sun is producing its energy =
primarily at frequencies easily detected with the human eye. In truth, =
it should be noted that the human eye evolved to use this spectrum of =
output which is the most abundant - and not the other way around as =
creationists would want you to believe -  but let's not touch off =
another round of ID silliness.=20

The energy output we see on earth is emitted from only the interfacial =
surface layer of the sun, the corona or "photosphere." It's ultimate =
source is conjectural but 99% of physicists assume it is all based =
solely on nuclear fusion. Anytime so many agree with so little =
supporting evidence, they are almost certainly wrong - at least in the =
details. Some of this "could" be explained more accurately IF (big "if") =
the hydrino was proven to be real. Hydrino formation and decay may =
supply a third to half of the solar energy - but not likely in the way =
Mills suggests.

Stefan's Law is essentially just an 'estimator' and worthless for most =
high energy cosmological situations, IMHO although it may work fine for =
earthbound engineering and some planetary phenomena (but not all - as =
many of the 'gas giants' are not in line !)

Jones
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>----- Original Message ----- =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>From: &lt;</FONT><A=20
href=3D"mailto:hohlrauml6d netscape.net"><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>hohlrauml6d netscape.net</FONT></A><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>&gt;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&gt; Okay, let me try this again.&nbsp; =
Stefan's=20
law may be used to predict the <BR>&gt; temperature of the sun.&nbsp; =
This=20
prediction has been shown to be accurate <BR>&gt;=20
experimentally.<BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Well Stefan's Law can be *made* =
backwardly=20
applicable to many situations (by applying exceptions to the exceptions =
in=20
retrospect) but it&nbsp;was historically&nbsp;an extremely&nbsp;poor =
predictor=20
of stellar photon activity, and is grossly misleading as to the =
temperature of=20
the sun - depending on whose assumptions you use. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>What exactly were you referring to by=20
"experimentally"?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Sorry I missed the first part of this =
thread.=20
Stefan's Law, of course, states that the total amount of light emitted =
from a=20
blackbody (perfectly emitting object - of which there are none) is =
proportional=20
to the fourth power of the object's temperature. In the case of the sun, =
we can=20
only estimate its internal temperature so the process involves layers of =

assumptions.&nbsp;Eddington was one of the first to try to&nbsp;apply of =

Stefan's Law to the sun and found it would result in a tremendous energy =
output=20
which is not justified by observation. The error is&nbsp;many orders of=20
magnitude. This problem was "solved" (i.e. rationalized) by later =
scientists by=20
applying their own (often more erroneous) =
counter-assumptions.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>First of all the sun&nbsp;emits very =
few X-rays,=20
assuming that the main power source is nuclear. Indeed, most of the =
output of=20
energy occurs in the so-called "visible region." That is, the sun is =
producing=20
its energy primarily at frequencies easily detected with the human eye. =
In=20
truth, it should be noted that the human eye evolved to use this =
spectrum=20
of&nbsp;output which is the most abundant - and not the other way around =
as=20
creationists would want you to believe -&nbsp; but let's not touch off =
another=20
round of ID silliness. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The energy output we see on earth is =
emitted from=20
only the interfacial surface layer of the sun, the corona or =
"photosphere." It's=20
ultimate source is conjectural but 99% of physicists assume it is all =
based=20
solely on nuclear fusion. Anytime so many agree with so little =
supporting=20
evidence, they are almost certainly wrong - at least in the details.=20
</FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Some of this "could" be explained =
more accurately=20
IF (big "if") the hydrino was proven to be real. Hydrino formation and =
decay may=20
supply a third to half of the solar energy - but not likely in the way =
Mills=20
suggests.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Stefan's Law is essentially just an =
'estimator' and=20
worthless for&nbsp;most high energy cosmological&nbsp;situations, IMHO =
although=20
it may work fine for earthbound engineering and some planetary phenomena =
(but=20
not all - as many of the 'gas giants' are not in line !)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Jones</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 30 09:14:14 2005
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My bad.  I should have used a less controversial example.

-----Original Message-----
From: Jones Beene
 
What exactly were you referring to by "experimentally"?

<snip>
 
The energy output we see on earth is emitted from only the interfacial 
surface layer of the sun, the corona or "photosphere." It's ultimate 
source is conjectural but 99% of physicists assume it is all based 
solely on nuclear fusion. Anytime so many agree with so little 
supporting evidence, they are almost certainly wrong - at least in the 
details.

<snip>
___________________________________________________
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In reply to  Jones Beene's message of Thu, 29 Dec 2005 18:22:07
-0800:
Hi,
[snip]
>Robin
>
>> This may be the maximum velocity at which laminar flow is 
>> possible
>> in the aether.
>
>Aren't all of Mills' sub-ground-state electrons supposedly moving 
>at far greater velocity than this ? 

Yup.
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

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> [Original Message]
> From: What's New <whatsnew BOBPARK.ORG>
> To: <BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW LISTSERV.UMD.EDU>
 Date: 12/30/2005 8:25:45 PM
 Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday December 30, 2005

 WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 30 Dec 05   Washington, DC

 1. LIES: COLLEGE SENIOR MADE-UP STORY OF VISIT BY FEDERAL AGENTS.
 Last week, WN repeated a news story of inter-library loans being
 monitored by Homeland Security.  The student now admits it never
 happened.  His lie had the effect of trivializing the problem of
 our government spying on Americans.  Lies are much in the news.

 2. CLONED LIES: SCIENCE WILL RETRACT CELEBRATED KOREAN PAPER. 
 Two weeks ago, a paper in the journal Science was reported to
 contain fabrications (WN 16 Dec 05).  An investigating panel at
 Seoul National University, where the research was conducted, now
 concludes that Woo Suk Hwang, who became an international
 celebrity and a national hero in South Korea, fabricated the
 entire paper.  However, according to a story in Science last
 week, Hwang still claims his conclusions are valid.  That's sadly
 reminiscent of the Jan Hendrik Schoen scandal at Bell Labs three
 years ago http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN02/wn092702.html . 

 3. PIOUS LIES: NOT EVERY FRAUDULENT RESEARCH PAPER IS RETRACTED. 
 We could not help but compare the proper handling of the cloning
 scandal by Science and Seoul National University with scandalous
 handling of a fraudulent paper by Columbia U. and the J. Reprod.
 Medicine  http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN04/wn070204.html . 
 Because the Columbia prayer study has never been retracted, this
 absurd publication, with its claim of supernatural intervention,
 is still listed as a valid scientific study on PubMed. 

 4. DESIGNED LIES: THE DOVER SCHOOL BOARD DID IT "TIME AND AGAIN."
 "It is ironic that these individuals, who so proudly touted their
 religious convictions in public would time and again lie to cover
 their tracks and disguise the real purpose behind the ID Policy."
 From the Jones opinion in Kitzmiller v. Dover school Board.

 5. BREAKTHROUGH FOR 2005: SCIENCE PICKS "EVOLUTION IN ACTION."  
 The journal Science, made an inspired selection this year.  But
 what really motivated all the work that has gone into showing how
 evolution works?  Is there one great motivator out there?

 6. THE DISCOVERY INSTITUTE: OUR CHOICE AS "SPINMEISTER OF 2005."
 In the 150 years since Darwin published his brilliant insight,
 there has never been another year like this.  Books on evolution
 are tumbling out of the presses; networks are making TV specials;
 natural history museums are racing to create Darwin exhibits. 
 All because one organization was able to come up with catchy
 phrases like "only a theory" and "a design must have a designer." 
 The Discovery Institute deserves an award, they made it happen.   

 7. PAPILLOMAVIRUS VACCINE: SOCIAL CONSERVATIVES VOW TO FIGHT IT.
 A new vaccine was 100% effective on 6,000 women in tests and
 could eliminate the sexually transmitted disease that causes
 cervical cancer.  Conservative Christian groups oppose its use
 because it would eliminate the incentive for abstinence.

 THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND.
 Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the
 University of Maryland, but they should be.
 ---
 Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.bobpark.org
 What's New is moving to a different listserver and our
 subscription process has changed. To change your subscription
 status please visit this link:
 http://listserv.umd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=bobparks-whatsnew&A=1


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 30 14:54:03 2005
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This effect can not be so unknown as some say. The inventor even says
the effect is unknown.
http://www.rexresearch.com/blomgren/blomgren.htm

I think it is easy. Thermal motion causes the charges to emit radiation.

David

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From: "Jones Beene" <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
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Subject: Transitory BEC state
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Here is short further elaboration, based on the derivative concept 
of a  "transitory BEC state".

A key new word for the understanding of "transitory" is this 
situation is the "attosecond" scale ...

A transitory BEC state is a situation where a collection of bosons 
is put into a physical state of imposed "minimized degrees of 
freedom" ... which is not necessarily all that close to absolute 
zero... following which we  might expect to see that the material 
displays markedly different physical properties than the normal 
state - properties which are intermediate to a full BEC. The 
rationale would be that a percentage of atoms has become 
temporarily 'condensed' by application of such constrains as 
enormous effective pressure (for instance) even at moderately low 
temperature near 100 K. Obviously, I am trying to test the limits 
of the concept to encompass such things as molecular bosons and 
HTSC.

This kind of outrageous idea is only plausible if you understand 
fully the ramifications of a "transitory state" in the QM sense of 
slowing time down to attoseconds... and the most (only) 
well-studied example being water. NOTE that water is being used 
mainly as a metaphor for the transitory state - as water, although 
arguably bosonic in a molecular sense (and having vastly different 
properties in some of the ice configurations like ice-9) is not 
precisely the best example for this hypothesis. Probably the best 
example would be carbon.

As we all know...water is commonly, universally, AND imprecisely 
given the formula of H2O ... when in reality at any given instant 
in time the correct formula is closer to H(sub1.5)O, the other 
quarter of all protons being transitory. The AIP Physics News 
report (below) is from the ISIS neutron spallation facility in the 
UK - which shows that the ratio of Hydrogen to Oxygen in water AT 
ANY INSTANT is closer to 1.5:1 rather that 2:1 as the conventional 
notation implies.

http://physics.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.aip.org/enews/physnews/2003/split/648%2D1.html

While the molecular movements within liquid water require the 
constant breaking and reorganization of individual hydrogen bonds 
on a sub-picosecond timescale, the process must necessarily be 
nearly lossless, due to the enormous "transaction volume." The 
same would be the case for a Transitory BEC state, or TBEC.

The recent "opening of the attosecond time window" - in 
conjunction with nanotechnology may be poised to reveal dramatic 
quantum effects that were once too short-lived to catch. The TBEC 
is admittedly a "stretch" but if it pans out, you heard it first 
on vortex.

Regardless of the full scope of this "freezing of time" 
(sub-picosecond) -  such new understanding may revise conventional 
textbook notions of bosonic atomic structures - such as diamond 
(wrt graphite) - as well as possibly extending to molecules such 
as water and other everyday molecules and of special interest 
HTSC.

More on this later... as "Oenological" pursuits have now gotten my 
the best of my once-coherent attention.

Jones



> First, find a candidate-boson. Freeze it and constrain it as 
> much as possible, Accelerate it to the velocity of the quantum 
> transition and look for unusual changes-  such as mass-loss, 
> color change, conductivity, reflectivity, or really any change 
> in physical properties that would show evidence of a transitory 
> BEC state.
>
> A good candidate material might be carbon. Carbon in the form of 
> graphite fibers. A small hoop or torus of a few grams of 
> graphite fiber with a circumference of 10 cm can be frozen to as 
> low as temp as possible and spun at the rate of 10.94 RPS. Some 
> changes may be noticeable if the carbon undergoes even 
> transitory excursions into a BEC state. One expected change 
> might be color loss or even partial transparency.
>
> BTW - although we know that diamond, which is transparent, is 
> well described simply as a particular structural phase of 
> carbon, no one has yet ruled out the possibility that some of 
> the strange physical properties of diamond (relative to 
> graphite) are not related to a transitory BEC state - due to the 
> enormous virtual-self-pressure of the unusual regular and 
> coherent bonding. 

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BlankJones wrote..

>This kind of outrageous idea is only plausible if you understand=20
fully the ramifications of a "transitory state" in the QM sense of=20
slowing time down to attoseconds... and the most (only)=20
well-studied example being water. NOTE that water is being used=20
mainly as a metaphor for the transitory state - as water, although=20
arguably bosonic in a molecular sense (and having vastly different=20
properties in some of the ice configurations like ice-9) is not=20
precisely the best example for this hypothesis. Probably the best=20
example would be carbon.

I suggest that water remains the only near analogy to your idea. Water =
is masculine in that it hides no mystery while feminine carbon has =
cameleon characteristics like Bismuth. Carbon, as in wet diamond changes =
it's mind as well as it's face. Never depend on carbon, ask the Rice =
university carbon nano bunch. Ever their valued discovery went out of =
the window to a richer suitor. <grin>
Prof. Chaplin's website recognizes the dependibility of water. We reside =
on a water planet which is the only known such structure in the =
universe. The odds of this occurence is beyond measure.

Richard


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<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
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background=3Dcid:001701c60db9$315b3690$ef027841 xptower>
<DIV>Jones wrote..</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&gt;This kind of outrageous idea is only plausible if you =
understand=20
<BR>fully the ramifications of a "transitory state" in the QM sense of=20
<BR>slowing time down to attoseconds... and the most (only) =
<BR>well-studied=20
example being water. NOTE that water is being used <BR>mainly as a =
metaphor for=20
the transitory state - as water, although <BR>arguably bosonic in a =
molecular=20
sense (and having vastly different <BR>properties in some of the ice=20
configurations like ice-9) is not <BR>precisely the best example for =
this=20
hypothesis. Probably the best <BR>example would be carbon.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>I suggest that water remains the only near analogy to your idea. =
Water is=20
masculine in that it hides no mystery&nbsp;while feminine carbon has =
cameleon=20
characteristics like Bismuth. Carbon, as in wet diamond changes it's =
mind as=20
well as it's face. Never depend on carbon, ask the Rice university =
carbon nano=20
bunch. Ever their valued discovery went out of the window to a richer =
suitor.=20
&lt;grin&gt;<BR>Prof. Chaplin's website&nbsp;recognizes the =
dependibility of=20
water. We reside on a water planet which is the only known such =
structure in the=20
universe. The odds of this occurence is beyond measure.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Richard</DIV>
<P>&nbsp;</P></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 30 19:25:55 2005
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David Jonsson wrote:
> This effect can not be so unknown as some say. The inventor even says
> the effect is unknown.
> http://www.rexresearch.com/blomgren/blomgren.htm

That is one cool website!  Check out the main page, if you haven't already:

   http://www.rexresearch.com/1index.htm

And I love this quote from the front page:

   "You need this Information! If you don't think so, you're just not 
yet sufficiently desperate!"

A brief perusal of the amazing list of stuff on the site turned up this gem:

   http://www.rexresearch.com/desev/desev.htm

Is this, or is it not, a Naudin lifter in an earlier incarnation?  Sure 
seems like it could be.


> 
> I think it is easy. Thermal motion causes the charges to emit radiation.
> 
> David
> 
> 

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David Jonsson wrote:

> This effect can not be so unknown as some say. 
> The inventor even says the effect is unknown.
 
> http://www.rexresearch.com/blomgren/blomgren.htm

> I think it is easy. Thermal motion causes the charges
> to emit radiation.

I've played around with this effect a little.  There
are a number of possibilities, none of which easily
explains the rather dramatic cooling.  You can feel
this directly by placing your hand near one of those
negative ion generators.  It feels like a cool breeze.
There just isn't enough ion wind to explain this. Likely
the fluid boundary layer is broken down, giving more
direct access to the surrounding air.

The effect on red hot metal is not easily accounted 
for by either the ion wind or boundary layer break-
down.  I've no actual calorimetric data on it, but you
really have to see the thing first hand to appreciate
it.  I'm surprised no commercial application has been
made of this.

M.


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Current flow and gas bubbling at the electrodes makes a heat pump
out of an electrolysis cell?

http://users.aol.com/atrupp/3/electrocaloric_effect.pdf


Fred
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<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Current flow and gas bubbling at the electrodes makes a heat pump</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>out of an electrolysis cell?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2><A href="http://users.aol.com/atrupp/3/electrocaloric_effect.pdf">http://users.aol.com/atrupp/3/electrocaloric_effect.pdf</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Fred</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 31 03:26:52 2005
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Subject: Re: The Electrocaloric Effect equals  Electrolysis Cell Over-Unity?
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My old acquaintance (RCA Lancaster) Don Ernst teams up with Randy Mills of Blacklight Power?
They don't mention Over-Unity,there's no need.

US Patent   5,273,635
December 28, 1993

Electrolytic Heater
Abstract
"A heater which uses the electrolysis of a liquid to produce heat from electricity and transfers the heat from the electrolyte by means of a heat exchanger. One embodiment includes electrodes of nickel and platinum and an electrolyte of potassium carbonate with a heat exchanger immersed in and transferring heat from the electrolyte."
Inventors: Gernert; Nelson J. (Elizabethtown, PA); Shaubach; Robert M. (Litiz, PA); Ernst; Donald M. (Leola, PA) 
Assignee: Thermacore, Inc. (Lancaster, PA)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Frederick Sparber 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Sent: 12/31/2005 3:18:59 AM 
Subject: Re: The Electrocaloric Effect equals Electrolysis Cell Over-Unity?


Current flow and gas bubbling at the electrodes makes a heat pump
out of an electrolysis cell?

http://users.aol.com/atrupp/3/electrocaloric_effect.pdf


Fred
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<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2802" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3>My old acquaintance (RCA Lancaster) Don Ernst teams up with Randy Mills of Blacklight Power?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3>They don't mention Over-Unity,there's no need.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3>US Patent&nbsp;&nbsp; 5,273,635</FONT></DIV>
<DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4><FONT size=3>December 28, 1993</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4><FONT size=3></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4><FONT size=3>Electrolytic Heater</FONT></DIV></FONT>
<CENTER><FONT size=3>Abstract</FONT></CENTER>
<P>"A heater which uses the electrolysis of a liquid to produce heat from electricity and transfers the heat from the electrolyte by means of a heat exchanger. One embodiment includes electrodes of nickel and platinum and an electrolyte of potassium carbonate with a heat exchanger immersed in and transferring heat from the electrolyte."</P>
<P>
<TABLE width="100%">
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=top align=left width="10%">Inventors: </TD>
<TD align=left width="90%">Gernert; Nelson J<STRONG>.</STRONG> (Elizabethtown, PA); Shaubach; Robert M<STRONG>.</STRONG> (Litiz, PA); Ernst; Donald M. (Leola, PA) </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=top align=left width="10%">Assignee: </TD>
<TD align=left width="90%">Thermacore, Inc<STRONG>.</STRONG> (Lancaster, PA)</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></P>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=fjsparber earthlink.net href="mailto:fjsparber@earthlink.net">Frederick Sparber</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To: </B><A title=vortex-l eskimo.com href="mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com">vortex-l@eskimo.com</A></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> 12/31/2005 3:18:59 AM </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: The Electrocaloric Effect equals Electrolysis Cell Over-Unity?</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><FONT size=2>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Current flow and gas bubbling at the electrodes makes a heat pump</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>out of an electrolysis cell?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2><A href="http://users.aol.com/atrupp/3/electrocaloric_effect.pdf">http://users.aol.com/atrupp/3/electrocaloric_effect.pdf</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Fred</FONT></DIV></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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We live in a world of enlightenment, or so it would seem. For example, the Laws of Thermodynamics have been well understood and taught generation after generation for over a century now, and then some. Such revered laws literally shape the manifestations of realty we can expect to see. It's how we expect reality to behave. In fact we DEPEND upon reality to behave in such a manner, and indeed reality dutifully complies, or so it would seem.

Meanwhile, toiling away in laboratories, (some of them purposely undisclosed) a few dreamers continue seeking out traces of magic, like alchemists seeking to transmute lead into gold. It would appear that some, in fact, are closer to achieving the Holy Grail than most on this planet would have believed is possible even though the element of gold may not have actually been transmuted from the baser element, lead.

In other laboratories even stranger things are happening, we are told. According to established theory, according to what the majority believes IS official reality, what is happening in some of these laboratories is tantamount to heresy - the conjuring of black magic. Traces of unaccountable heat are being measured, seemingly defying the first and second laws of thermodynamics. 

We are told of a lab located in Cranbury, New Jersey that seems to be conjuring up excess heat in ways thought impossible. They claim to have produced exotic new species of what we had always believed to have been a well understood element, a claim obviously as controversial as the excess heat measured.

We are told of labs located elsewhere on the planet where the faint whispers of unexpected asymmetries attributed to magnetism and electromagnetism are being observed and meticulously mapped out. Will they be able to find the right brass lamp? Will they figure out the right combination of incantations to speak? Will they get their genie? Will they get their wishes?

In our reality where the paradigms our society have been meticulously and painfully patched together for over a century it would be considered an absolute affront, an extremely rude gesture to have a genie pop out of the lamp in this day, the Age of Enlightenment - to grant us a few wishes, wishes that might go so far as to seemingly disregard a few revered Laws of Thermodynamics. How rude! Get back in your lamp!

After all, genies and fairies don't really exist. Magic is nothing more than a collection of imaginary toys children play with, toys that must be set aside when we finally grow up. To be an adult is to observe that the Laws of Thermodynamics are carved in stone as were the Ten Commandments, or so it would seem.

If perhaps just enough of us close our eyes long enough. If just enough of us clap our hands together. If just enough of us dare remain child-like for one day longer. For one day longer believe that genies and fairies can exist, that a faint whisper of magic permeates the atmosphere like an illusive scent from an exotic flower. Perhaps just a few of our deepest wishes may eventually, some day soon, come true.

In 2006 may some of your deepest wishes come true.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

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BlankJones wrote..

>This kind of outrageous idea is only plausible if you understand=20
fully the ramifications of a "transitory state" in the QM sense of=20
slowing time down to attoseconds... and the most (only)=20
well-studied example being water. NOTE that water is being used=20
mainly as a metaphor for the transitory state - as water, although=20
arguably bosonic in a molecular sense (and having vastly different=20
properties in some of the ice configurations like ice-9) is not=20
precisely the best example for this hypothesis. Probably the best=20
example would be carbon.

I suggest that water remains the only near analogy to your idea. Water =
is masculine in that it hides no mystery while feminine carbon has =
cameleon characteristics like Bismuth. Carbon, as in wet diamond changes =
it's mind as well as it's face. Never depend on carbon, ask the Rice =
university carbon nano bunch. Ever their valued discovery went out of =
the window to a richer suitor. <grin>
Prof. Chaplin's website recognizes the dependibility of water. We reside =
on a water planet which is the only known such structure in the =
universe. The odds of this occurence is beyond measure.

Richard


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<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"><BASE=20
href=3D"file://E:\Program Files\Common Files\Microsoft =
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<DIV>Jones wrote..</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&gt;This kind of outrageous idea is only plausible if you =
understand=20
<BR>fully the ramifications of a "transitory state" in the QM sense of=20
<BR>slowing time down to attoseconds... and the most (only) =
<BR>well-studied=20
example being water. NOTE that water is being used <BR>mainly as a =
metaphor for=20
the transitory state - as water, although <BR>arguably bosonic in a =
molecular=20
sense (and having vastly different <BR>properties in some of the ice=20
configurations like ice-9) is not <BR>precisely the best example for =
this=20
hypothesis. Probably the best <BR>example would be carbon.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>I suggest that water remains the only near analogy to your idea. =
Water is=20
masculine in that it hides no mystery&nbsp;while feminine carbon has =
cameleon=20
characteristics like Bismuth. Carbon, as in wet diamond changes it's =
mind as=20
well as it's face. Never depend on carbon, ask the Rice university =
carbon nano=20
bunch. Ever their valued discovery went out of the window to a richer =
suitor.=20
&lt;grin&gt;<BR>Prof. Chaplin's website&nbsp;recognizes the =
dependibility of=20
water. We reside on a water planet which is the only known such =
structure in the=20
universe. The odds of this occurence is beyond measure.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Richard</DIV>
<P>&nbsp;</P></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 31 09:25:31 2005
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Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 18:25:01 +0100
From: David Jonsson <davidjonssonsweden gmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Electrostatic cooling
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On 12/31/05, Michael Foster <michael.foster excite.com> wrote:
>
> David Jonsson wrote:
>
> > This effect can not be so unknown as some say.
> > The inventor even says the effect is unknown.
>
> > http://www.rexresearch.com/blomgren/blomgren.htm
>
> > I think it is easy. Thermal motion causes the charges
> > to emit radiation.
>
> I've played around with this effect a little.  There
> are a number of possibilities, none of which easily
> explains the rather dramatic cooling.  You can feel
> this directly by placing your hand near one of those
> negative ion generators.  It feels like a cool breeze.
> There just isn't enough ion wind to explain this. Likely
> the fluid boundary layer is broken down, giving more
> direct access to the surrounding air.
>
> The effect on red hot metal is not easily accounted
> for by either the ion wind or boundary layer break-
> down.  I've no actual calorimetric data on it, but you
> really have to see the thing first hand to appreciate
> it.  I'm surprised no commercial application has been
> made of this.

It could be because the strategists don't want it to happen. Check
http://www.fas.org/irp/mystery/unveil.htm and its reference 10: Scott,
William, 'Black World Engineers, Scientists Encourage Using Highly
Classified Technology for Civil Application," Aviation Week & Space
Technology, 9 March 1992, page 67.

The Stefan Boltzmann law and the Planck radiation laws can not be
effective since they refer to radiation from neutral matter. If net
charges are added to thermal vibrations they should radiate. There is
probably a quantum mechanical explanation too. This is a very easy and
plausible explanation. It is much more unlikely for charged matter to
have the same temperature as neutral matter. This lowers entropy and
that is exactly what Tom Bearden says it will do referring to D. J.
Evans and Lamberto Rondoni, "Comments on the Entropy of Nonequilibrium
Steady States," J. Stat. Phys., Vol. 109, Nov. 2002, p. 895-920

Alternatively if the mean free path is longer than the cyclotron
diameter of the resulting magnetic fields then the heat would be
transformed into magnetic momentum.

Don't tell me I have to determine this myself. I don't have the right
background to do that. I would say that statistical physics, quantum
physics, thermodynamics and plasma physics is a suitable background
for someone to work with this. At best I could have results in 2007.

It is amazing and hard to understand how the strategists can have a
grip over the sciences like this. I would say more than politics is in
effect to stop science like this. It would have been natural for
Planck and other physicists of his time to look at these issues. Now a
century has passed. One can't do anything but congratulate the US
government on a very successful policy. It seems like this technology
is more controversial than nuclear arms.

David

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Transitory BEC state
Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2006 07:21:23 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  RC Macaulay's message of Fri, 30 Dec 2005 21:20:47
-0600:
Hi,
[snip]
>Prof. Chaplin's website recognizes the dependibility of water. We reside on a water planet which is the only known such structure in the universe. The odds of this occurence is beyond measure.
[snip]
Actually I suspect that water planets would be quite common,
because Hydrogen is ubiquitous, and Oxygen a very stable nucleus,
which means that it too is likely to be very common. In fact so
common that it is the most common element on Earth, and likely
also on most rocky planets. In other words worlds where water is
present are likely to be in the majority, however the amount of
water present will vary. If the planet has a seismic history, then
much of that water will be on the surface, because gasses tend to
vent during seismic activity, and hydrogen and oxygen are sure to
combine chemically once they reach the surface, if not before.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 31 14:04:18 2005
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Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 21:04:02 +0000
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Grimer <f.grimer grimer2.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Ooops! Fancy that! 8-)
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At 12:13 pm 30/12/2005 -0500, hohlraum wrote:

>My bad.  I should have used a less controversial example.


Don't worry about it. It is the wood which is of concern
here - not the trees. It's a problem for Bigenders.  ;-)

It seems to me that the Blackbody Radiation curves are 
the result of missing the longitudinal dimension. I think 
it is one of those things which once one has seen it, 
only a Dr.Porky would still perversely ignore - but we 
shall see.   8-)

I'll have to work out a nice simple example that 
everyone can understand.   

Cheers,

Frank

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 31 14:14:37 2005
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Now THAT's an ambitious project suitable for the new year...HNY Sir 
Grimer!

-----Original Message-----
From: Grimer

I'll have to work out a nice simple example that
everyone can understand.
___________________________________________________
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 31 14:20:44 2005
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Subject: Re: Transitory BEC state
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Hi Robin,
Thank you for adding the word " suspect" to your comment. Few are willing to 
accept the uniqueness of the earth planet. NASA spends billions "assuming" 
otherwise,  with a poor track record of success except for wasting a heck of 
a lot of money playing paper airplanes.
Richard
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Robin van Spaandonk" <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2005 2:21 PM
Subject: Re: Transitory BEC state


> In reply to  RC Macaulay's message of Fri, 30 Dec 2005 21:20:47
> -0600:
> Hi,
> [snip]
>>Prof. Chaplin's website recognizes the dependibility of water. We reside 
>>on a water planet which is the only known such structure in the universe. 
>>The odds of this occurence is beyond measure.
> [snip]
> Actually I suspect that water planets would be quite common,
> because Hydrogen is ubiquitous, and Oxygen a very stable nucleus,
> which means that it too is likely to be very common. In fact so
> common that it is the most common element on Earth, and likely
> also on most rocky planets. In other words worlds where water is
> present are likely to be in the majority, however the amount of
> water present will vary. If the planet has a seismic history, then
> much of that water will be on the surface, because gasses tend to
> vent during seismic activity, and hydrogen and oxygen are sure to
> combine chemically once they reach the surface, if not before.
>
> Regards,
>
> Robin van Spaandonk
>
> http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
>
> Competition provides the motivation,
> Cooperation provides the means.
>
> 


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To: "vortex-l" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: The Electrocaloric Effect equals  Electrolysis Cell Over-Unity?
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In reply to  Frederick Sparber's message of Sat, 31 Dec 2005
04:26:19 -0700:
Hi Fred,
[snip]
>My old acquaintance (RCA Lancaster) Don Ernst teams up with Randy Mills of Blacklight Power?
>They don't mention Over-Unity,there's no need.
>
>US Patent   5,273,635
>December 28, 1993
>
>Electrolytic Heater
>Abstract
>"A heater which uses the electrolysis of a liquid to produce heat from electricity and transfers the heat from the electrolyte by means of a heat exchanger. One embodiment includes electrodes of nickel and platinum and an electrolyte of potassium carbonate with a heat exchanger immersed in and transferring heat from the electrolyte."
>Inventors: Gernert; Nelson J. (Elizabethtown, PA); Shaubach; Robert M. (Litiz, PA); Ernst; Donald M. (Leola, PA) 
>Assignee: Thermacore, Inc. (Lancaster, PA)
[snip]
I think this was meant to be an early CF patent, though it does
seem likely that it was in fact a hydrino reaction powering it.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.